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	<title>Comments on: Germany Leans Towards ODF, GNOME Receives Public Correction</title>
	<atom:link href="http://techrights.org/2007/10/31/odf-germany-gnome-ooxml/feed/" rel="self" type="application/rss+xml" />
	<link>http://techrights.org/2007/10/31/odf-germany-gnome-ooxml/</link>
	<description>Free Software Sentry – watching and reporting maneuvers of those threatened by software freedom</description>
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	<item>
		<title>By: Jeff Waugh</title>
		<link>http://techrights.org/2007/10/31/odf-germany-gnome-ooxml/comment-page-3/#comment-2541</link>
		<dc:creator>Jeff Waugh</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 07 Nov 2007 06:02:40 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://boycottnovell.com/2007/10/31/odf-germany-gnome-ooxml/#comment-2541</guid>
		<description>So, I&#039;ve suggested that you ask questions. This isn&#039;t the right forum for doing your research. Our email thread is. Seriously, ask questions and you&#039;ll get answers. If you keep trumpeting the same assumptions and sources without asking for more information from those in the know, you&#039;re just repeating misinformation. I&#039;m am 100% willing to work this out, I just need to see that you&#039;re willing to make the effort.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>So, I&#8217;ve suggested that you ask questions. This isn&#8217;t the right forum for doing your research. Our email thread is. Seriously, ask questions and you&#8217;ll get answers. If you keep trumpeting the same assumptions and sources without asking for more information from those in the know, you&#8217;re just repeating misinformation. I&#8217;m am 100% willing to work this out, I just need to see that you&#8217;re willing to make the effort.</p>
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	<item>
		<title>By: Roy Schestowitz</title>
		<link>http://techrights.org/2007/10/31/odf-germany-gnome-ooxml/comment-page-2/#comment-2540</link>
		<dc:creator>Roy Schestowitz</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 07 Nov 2007 05:54:11 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://boycottnovell.com/2007/10/31/odf-germany-gnome-ooxml/#comment-2540</guid>
		<description>Jeff,

I am being defensive here, but I still think that you&#039;ve failed to answer a question (here and in E-mail too) about the differences between GNOME&#039;s core and GNOME as it stands when deployed (it &#039;real life&#039;, so to speak).

Some folks on the Web (I can think of several) systematically remove Mono whenever they install GNU/Linux, but how long for can they do this (Mono expands in terms of its role)? What about the vast majority of people who do not do this and just blindly accept software like Beagle? They become dependent on what Microsoft considers its &#039;IP&#039;. I don&#039;t have to serve you my opinion, but I can give you references to journalists like SJVN, who consider this a timebomb.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Jeff,</p>
<p>I am being defensive here, but I still think that you&#8217;ve failed to answer a question (here and in E-mail too) about the differences between GNOME&#8217;s core and GNOME as it stands when deployed (it &#8216;real life&#8217;, so to speak).</p>
<p>Some folks on the Web (I can think of several) systematically remove Mono whenever they install GNU/Linux, but how long for can they do this (Mono expands in terms of its role)? What about the vast majority of people who do not do this and just blindly accept software like Beagle? They become dependent on what Microsoft considers its &#8216;IP&#8217;. I don&#8217;t have to serve you my opinion, but I can give you references to journalists like SJVN, who consider this a timebomb.</p>
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		<title>By: Jeff Waugh</title>
		<link>http://techrights.org/2007/10/31/odf-germany-gnome-ooxml/comment-page-2/#comment-2539</link>
		<dc:creator>Jeff Waugh</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 07 Nov 2007 05:42:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://boycottnovell.com/2007/10/31/odf-germany-gnome-ooxml/#comment-2539</guid>
		<description>That statement is incorrect, yes. It&#039;s very plainly demonstrable, and with a little help from those in the know, you can find out why. That&#039;s why I keep suggesting to you that research would be a good idea. You&#039;re making claims without checking them first. You&#039;re trusting random voices in the wilderness instead of going to the source and finding out the truth. That&#039;s not good for your website or audience.

I&#039;ve asked you to get in contact if you want to better research your stories and claims. I don&#039;t regard the comments section of your website as the right venue for that.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>That statement is incorrect, yes. It&#8217;s very plainly demonstrable, and with a little help from those in the know, you can find out why. That&#8217;s why I keep suggesting to you that research would be a good idea. You&#8217;re making claims without checking them first. You&#8217;re trusting random voices in the wilderness instead of going to the source and finding out the truth. That&#8217;s not good for your website or audience.</p>
<p>I&#8217;ve asked you to get in contact if you want to better research your stories and claims. I don&#8217;t regard the comments section of your website as the right venue for that.</p>
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		<title>By: Roy Schestowitz</title>
		<link>http://techrights.org/2007/10/31/odf-germany-gnome-ooxml/comment-page-2/#comment-2538</link>
		<dc:creator>Roy Schestowitz</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 07 Nov 2007 05:36:53 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://boycottnovell.com/2007/10/31/odf-germany-gnome-ooxml/#comment-2538</guid>
		<description>I&#039;m very happy to discuss this by mail too, e.g. in order to draw the distinction between what I&#039;m consistently calling &quot;GNOME&quot; here and GNOME on its own (without more complex interaction that involves other packages). From my most recent message:

&lt;blockquote&gt;
I believe this has a little to do with semantics. When I refer to GNOME, perhaps I should clarify that it does not refer to standalone GNOME (to be compiled from source code, for example), but to GNOME when it&#039;s packages in pretty much every major distro. In each such distro, it appears not to be trivial to remove Mono, and it&#039;s becoming harder and harder all the time.
&lt;/blockquote&gt;

Is that an incorrect statement to make? I&#039;m not playing foolish here and I understand how frustrating this can be to you and to others. Should I ignore known problems (not necessarily with Mono/GNOME) just because speaking about it is damaging? Turning a blind eye to these issue can be equally (if not more) damaging in the long term.

Saying bad things about Xandros (even the Eee) can be damaging to Linux, in the short-term.

Wishing that Linspire will have its talented developers defect to other distributions is bad to Linspire and many of its customers, but it helps keep Free software free (and Free). Without it being free, it cannot compete. It&#039;s enslaved.

There many more such examples. Infighting is very hurtful and it usually begins when someone accepts money to ignite it all. Shall we avoid controversial at all cost, the side which burps out money will get its way. Information can help here, and that&#039;s the least many of us can do.

I never liked Novell&#039;s deal and the implications brought by Mono. It still took me a week to decide whether it&#039;s worth fighting against it or pretend the scale of the problem would never balloon (I was among the first to say that Microsoft&#039;s deal with Novell is an acknowledgment of Linux winning, but it was wishful thinking). Later came the FUD and that &quot;Microsoft takes on the Free World&quot; Fortune article (with many other to follow). That&#039;s when many of us got our answers and realised what Novell and Mono meant. I cannot believe that some people still refuse to see what&#039;s happening. Maybe they are simply selective with their readings, or misinformed.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I&#8217;m very happy to discuss this by mail too, e.g. in order to draw the distinction between what I&#8217;m consistently calling &#8220;GNOME&#8221; here and GNOME on its own (without more complex interaction that involves other packages). From my most recent message:</p>
<blockquote><p>
I believe this has a little to do with semantics. When I refer to GNOME, perhaps I should clarify that it does not refer to standalone GNOME (to be compiled from source code, for example), but to GNOME when it&#8217;s packages in pretty much every major distro. In each such distro, it appears not to be trivial to remove Mono, and it&#8217;s becoming harder and harder all the time.
</p></blockquote>
<p>Is that an incorrect statement to make? I&#8217;m not playing foolish here and I understand how frustrating this can be to you and to others. Should I ignore known problems (not necessarily with Mono/GNOME) just because speaking about it is damaging? Turning a blind eye to these issue can be equally (if not more) damaging in the long term.</p>
<p>Saying bad things about Xandros (even the Eee) can be damaging to Linux, in the short-term.</p>
<p>Wishing that Linspire will have its talented developers defect to other distributions is bad to Linspire and many of its customers, but it helps keep Free software free (and Free). Without it being free, it cannot compete. It&#8217;s enslaved.</p>
<p>There many more such examples. Infighting is very hurtful and it usually begins when someone accepts money to ignite it all. Shall we avoid controversial at all cost, the side which burps out money will get its way. Information can help here, and that&#8217;s the least many of us can do.</p>
<p>I never liked Novell&#8217;s deal and the implications brought by Mono. It still took me a week to decide whether it&#8217;s worth fighting against it or pretend the scale of the problem would never balloon (I was among the first to say that Microsoft&#8217;s deal with Novell is an acknowledgment of Linux winning, but it was wishful thinking). Later came the FUD and that &#8220;Microsoft takes on the Free World&#8221; Fortune article (with many other to follow). That&#8217;s when many of us got our answers and realised what Novell and Mono meant. I cannot believe that some people still refuse to see what&#8217;s happening. Maybe they are simply selective with their readings, or misinformed.</p>
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		<title>By: Jeff Waugh</title>
		<link>http://techrights.org/2007/10/31/odf-germany-gnome-ooxml/comment-page-2/#comment-2537</link>
		<dc:creator>Jeff Waugh</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 07 Nov 2007 05:06:38 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://boycottnovell.com/2007/10/31/odf-germany-gnome-ooxml/#comment-2537</guid>
		<description>Right, and I&#039;ve asked you to contact me so I can explain the issue, and why your analysis (and the information you&#039;re getting from other sources) and conclusions are incorrect. You can still do that.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Right, and I&#8217;ve asked you to contact me so I can explain the issue, and why your analysis (and the information you&#8217;re getting from other sources) and conclusions are incorrect. You can still do that.</p>
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		<title>By: Roy Schestowitz</title>
		<link>http://techrights.org/2007/10/31/odf-germany-gnome-ooxml/comment-page-2/#comment-2536</link>
		<dc:creator>Roy Schestowitz</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 07 Nov 2007 05:04:03 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://boycottnovell.com/2007/10/31/odf-germany-gnome-ooxml/#comment-2536</guid>
		<description>Jeff, I have not corrected these bit of text because I am not entirely convinced. I do appreciate your persistence and I assure you that there&#039;s no prejudice here. Look at my posting history prior to the time when I discovered more about the impact of Mono (standalone) and later about the integration between GNOME and Mono (at least that which is made concrete by integrators at Mandriva, Fedora, Ubuntu, and several other major distributions).

I am not the only person who has come up with this assessment. Others have independently reached the same conclusions.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Jeff, I have not corrected these bit of text because I am not entirely convinced. I do appreciate your persistence and I assure you that there&#8217;s no prejudice here. Look at my posting history prior to the time when I discovered more about the impact of Mono (standalone) and later about the integration between GNOME and Mono (at least that which is made concrete by integrators at Mandriva, Fedora, Ubuntu, and several other major distributions).</p>
<p>I am not the only person who has come up with this assessment. Others have independently reached the same conclusions.</p>
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		<title>By: Jeff Waugh</title>
		<link>http://techrights.org/2007/10/31/odf-germany-gnome-ooxml/comment-page-1/#comment-2535</link>
		<dc:creator>Jeff Waugh</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 07 Nov 2007 04:32:43 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://boycottnovell.com/2007/10/31/odf-germany-gnome-ooxml/#comment-2535</guid>
		<description>Roy, as noted in my latest email to you (just before I read this article), the recent issues you&#039;ve posted about packaging pointing to GNOME dependencies on Mono are also demonstrably false. Because you didn&#039;t fact-check it, it&#039;s right there on your site, providing misinformation to your readers.

I&#039;ve offered to help. Numerous times. You need only mail or call me.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Roy, as noted in my latest email to you (just before I read this article), the recent issues you&#8217;ve posted about packaging pointing to GNOME dependencies on Mono are also demonstrably false. Because you didn&#8217;t fact-check it, it&#8217;s right there on your site, providing misinformation to your readers.</p>
<p>I&#8217;ve offered to help. Numerous times. You need only mail or call me.</p>
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		<title>By: Roy Schestowitz</title>
		<link>http://techrights.org/2007/10/31/odf-germany-gnome-ooxml/comment-page-1/#comment-2534</link>
		<dc:creator>Roy Schestowitz</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 07 Nov 2007 04:26:15 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://boycottnovell.com/2007/10/31/odf-germany-gnome-ooxml/#comment-2534</guid>
		<description>Jeff,

I &lt;b&gt;do&lt;/b&gt; by all means want to clarify that I&#039;m not against GNOME, but I&#039;m worried about certain things which the project does to itself (or a subset of which imposes upon the others). This is very, very similar to my emotional relationship with Novell, which I do not hate (I actually dislike Linspire a lot more for the anti-Linux FUD they tactlessly spread). It just hurts me to see the route GNOME has taken (or is taking as we speak) and I hope that things can be brought back to the way they used to be before it&#039;s too late.

Let me be a little more specific. In the most recent post on Mono we&#039;re beginning to find strong ties between &lt;em&gt;packaged&lt;/em&gt; GNOME and Mono. With Evolution, which is bound to have Mono extensions, it&#039;s becoming hard to avoid Mono. These ties are becoming harder to break and a friend of mine now is considering starting a whole new GNU/Linux distribution that is intended to be GNOME-based and 100% Mono-free, for legal reason.

Back to Novell, people don&#039;t believe me when I say this, but I still like Novell. I just don&#039;t like parts of the management (I won&#039;t name names here) which are responsible for the colossal mistakes that hurt not only Novell, but also the rest of the Free open source software world. I investigate these issues, I write about them quickly (apologies for the many typos), and I firmly believe that understand where it&#039;s going a few years down the line. As Jeremy Allison said last years, &quot;we [Novell] were WINNING,&quot; but then came this horrible deal with Microsoft, which Microsoft even &lt;b&gt;paid&lt;/b&gt; a lot of money just to have. I don&#039;t know who gets paid by whom, but I believe there&#039;s something very complex going on here and as Sam from ITWire said very recently, someone is not telling us the whole story.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Jeff,</p>
<p>I <b>do</b> by all means want to clarify that I&#8217;m not against GNOME, but I&#8217;m worried about certain things which the project does to itself (or a subset of which imposes upon the others). This is very, very similar to my emotional relationship with Novell, which I do not hate (I actually dislike Linspire a lot more for the anti-Linux FUD they tactlessly spread). It just hurts me to see the route GNOME has taken (or is taking as we speak) and I hope that things can be brought back to the way they used to be before it&#8217;s too late.</p>
<p>Let me be a little more specific. In the most recent post on Mono we&#8217;re beginning to find strong ties between <em>packaged</em> GNOME and Mono. With Evolution, which is bound to have Mono extensions, it&#8217;s becoming hard to avoid Mono. These ties are becoming harder to break and a friend of mine now is considering starting a whole new GNU/Linux distribution that is intended to be GNOME-based and 100% Mono-free, for legal reason.</p>
<p>Back to Novell, people don&#8217;t believe me when I say this, but I still like Novell. I just don&#8217;t like parts of the management (I won&#8217;t name names here) which are responsible for the colossal mistakes that hurt not only Novell, but also the rest of the Free open source software world. I investigate these issues, I write about them quickly (apologies for the many typos), and I firmly believe that understand where it&#8217;s going a few years down the line. As Jeremy Allison said last years, &#8220;we [Novell] were WINNING,&#8221; but then came this horrible deal with Microsoft, which Microsoft even <b>paid</b> a lot of money just to have. I don&#8217;t know who gets paid by whom, but I believe there&#8217;s something very complex going on here and as Sam from ITWire said very recently, someone is not telling us the whole story.</p>
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		<title>By: Jeff Waugh</title>
		<link>http://techrights.org/2007/10/31/odf-germany-gnome-ooxml/comment-page-1/#comment-2533</link>
		<dc:creator>Jeff Waugh</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 07 Nov 2007 03:52:26 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://boycottnovell.com/2007/10/31/odf-germany-gnome-ooxml/#comment-2533</guid>
		<description>The simple thing I&#039;ve raised in my emails to you is that if you&#039;re making comments about organisations and people, and you want your website and analysis to be regarded as highly as more conventional news sites, it is in your best interests to actively pursue input from the stakeholders in the topics you write about.

You have an even easier time than most: You&#039;re writing about Open Source, so you have amazingly open access to the communities involved!

Every now and then I come back to this site to find another article making accusations about GNOME, but no record of any contact between you and the stakeholders. I&#039;ve offered so many times to answer your questions. You have full, up-front, declared access to me at any time.

As it stands, I&#039;m less inclined to take the rest of the site seriously because I know how you approach GNOME stories... and it greatly disappoints me that you&#039;d take such a combative and divisive approach to community issues. By just asking questions of the relevant communities, you&#039;d be avoiding a whole class of issues related to that.

You don&#039;t have to agree with the subjects of your articles, but you really need to have a more solid footing for the claims you make.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>The simple thing I&#8217;ve raised in my emails to you is that if you&#8217;re making comments about organisations and people, and you want your website and analysis to be regarded as highly as more conventional news sites, it is in your best interests to actively pursue input from the stakeholders in the topics you write about.</p>
<p>You have an even easier time than most: You&#8217;re writing about Open Source, so you have amazingly open access to the communities involved!</p>
<p>Every now and then I come back to this site to find another article making accusations about GNOME, but no record of any contact between you and the stakeholders. I&#8217;ve offered so many times to answer your questions. You have full, up-front, declared access to me at any time.</p>
<p>As it stands, I&#8217;m less inclined to take the rest of the site seriously because I know how you approach GNOME stories&#8230; and it greatly disappoints me that you&#8217;d take such a combative and divisive approach to community issues. By just asking questions of the relevant communities, you&#8217;d be avoiding a whole class of issues related to that.</p>
<p>You don&#8217;t have to agree with the subjects of your articles, but you really need to have a more solid footing for the claims you make.</p>
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		<title>By: Roy Schestowitz</title>
		<link>http://techrights.org/2007/10/31/odf-germany-gnome-ooxml/comment-page-1/#comment-2480</link>
		<dc:creator>Roy Schestowitz</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 01 Nov 2007 01:58:39 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://boycottnovell.com/2007/10/31/odf-germany-gnome-ooxml/#comment-2480</guid>
		<description>&lt;blockquote&gt;
- suport Microsoft Office XML formats at the application level

is either stupid, or plain &lt;b&gt;paid Microsoft work&lt;/b&gt;. [emphasis mine]
&lt;/blockquote&gt;

http://boycottnovell.com/2006/11/17/i-thought-novell-said-there-were-no-infractions/

&quot;&lt;em&gt;The relative sizes of the payments should tell you who had to be convinced.&lt;/em&gt;&quot;

This is an old tactic. Use an excuse to make a payment, be it an exchange of things, or taxation, or &quot;charities&quot;. It&#039;s a diversion strategy.

Additionally,recall the possibilities of paying intermediate (middleman) parties, such as BayStar (SCO), acquiring by proxy (Microsoft-Citrix-XenSource), or controlling by proxy (Microsoft-Novell-GPL(v3)).</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<blockquote><p>
- suport Microsoft Office XML formats at the application level</p>
<p>is either stupid, or plain <b>paid Microsoft work</b>. [emphasis mine]
</p></blockquote>
<p><a href="http://boycottnovell.com/2006/11/17/i-thought-novell-said-there-were-no-infractions/" rel="nofollow">http://boycottnovell.com/2006/11/17/i-thought-novell-said-there-were-no-infractions/</a></p>
<p>&#8220;<em>The relative sizes of the payments should tell you who had to be convinced.</em>&#8221;</p>
<p>This is an old tactic. Use an excuse to make a payment, be it an exchange of things, or taxation, or &#8220;charities&#8221;. It&#8217;s a diversion strategy.</p>
<p>Additionally,recall the possibilities of paying intermediate (middleman) parties, such as BayStar (SCO), acquiring by proxy (Microsoft-Citrix-XenSource), or controlling by proxy (Microsoft-Novell-GPL(v3)).</p>
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		<title>By: Stephane Rodriguez</title>
		<link>http://techrights.org/2007/10/31/odf-germany-gnome-ooxml/comment-page-1/#comment-2475</link>
		<dc:creator>Stephane Rodriguez</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 31 Oct 2007 19:57:38 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://boycottnovell.com/2007/10/31/odf-germany-gnome-ooxml/#comment-2475</guid>
		<description>I find it hard to believe what this Gnome guy is saying.

Gnome is supposed to be an open source non-profit org, right? How come they join ECMA, an org which does not disclose the meeting minutes? How is that open source compatible?

Here is an interesting bit about Jody Goldberg/Novell/Gnome/ECMA. He managed to get Microsoft to add Excel formulas in ECMA 376. 300 pages. In fact those pages are not actual formula specifications, that&#039;s just Excel&#039;s user online help. Great achievement!

(to be accurate, Microsoft has not done just a copy/paste of their online help, they had to remove some references to American centric stuff so that it smelled better, but it&#039;s still irrelevant stuff for ISO purposes).

I think people confuse two things when it comes to support Microsoft Office XML formats. (I don&#039;t use &quot;OOXML&quot; as an acronym because there is no Microsoft suggested in the acronym, even though those formats are actually brought by and for Microsoft, therefore it&#039;s 100% Microsoft stuff period).

There is no way people implementing Office stuff can afford not implement Microsoft formats. Due to their market forces, those file formats are appearing on clients, and are being used.

But the big difference is that a vendor can implement this format (part of it only by the way, because there&#039;s plenty of undocumented tricks, plus all the stuff not in ECMA 376 that is not covered by the royalty-free right to implement) just as an import format. Doing so in the engine, you have hopes for interoperating with other stuff.

But going as far as :
- helping Microsoft resolve ISO comments (which is what a ton of non-Microsoft people seem to be doing right now...)
- mimic Office 2007
- suport Microsoft Office XML formats at the application level

is either stupid, or plain paid Microsoft work.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I find it hard to believe what this Gnome guy is saying.</p>
<p>Gnome is supposed to be an open source non-profit org, right? How come they join ECMA, an org which does not disclose the meeting minutes? How is that open source compatible?</p>
<p>Here is an interesting bit about Jody Goldberg/Novell/Gnome/ECMA. He managed to get Microsoft to add Excel formulas in ECMA 376. 300 pages. In fact those pages are not actual formula specifications, that&#8217;s just Excel&#8217;s user online help. Great achievement!</p>
<p>(to be accurate, Microsoft has not done just a copy/paste of their online help, they had to remove some references to American centric stuff so that it smelled better, but it&#8217;s still irrelevant stuff for ISO purposes).</p>
<p>I think people confuse two things when it comes to support Microsoft Office XML formats. (I don&#8217;t use &#8220;OOXML&#8221; as an acronym because there is no Microsoft suggested in the acronym, even though those formats are actually brought by and for Microsoft, therefore it&#8217;s 100% Microsoft stuff period).</p>
<p>There is no way people implementing Office stuff can afford not implement Microsoft formats. Due to their market forces, those file formats are appearing on clients, and are being used.</p>
<p>But the big difference is that a vendor can implement this format (part of it only by the way, because there&#8217;s plenty of undocumented tricks, plus all the stuff not in ECMA 376 that is not covered by the royalty-free right to implement) just as an import format. Doing so in the engine, you have hopes for interoperating with other stuff.</p>
<p>But going as far as :<br />
- helping Microsoft resolve ISO comments (which is what a ton of non-Microsoft people seem to be doing right now&#8230;)<br />
- mimic Office 2007<br />
- suport Microsoft Office XML formats at the application level</p>
<p>is either stupid, or plain paid Microsoft work.</p>
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