08.24.08

IRC: #boycottnovell @ FreeNode: August 23rd, 2008 – Part II

Posted in IRC Logs at 6:01 am by Dr. Roy Schestowitz

schestowitz	Asay has complained about it for ages and they needed Neelie Kroes to force MS to cough out docs	Aug 23 20:09
schestowitz	Now… Microsoft wants patents tax for /protocols/.	Aug 23 20:10
schestowitz	IOW, Microsoft wants to sell product and also tax its direct competitor. Just like the monopolistic railways. Should be illegal…	Aug 23 20:10
schestowitz	_Doug: there’s no smoking un suggesting that me-inc will just buy *NIX from Microsoft-’approved’ channels, i.e. Novell and SCO.	Aug 23 20:14
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_Doug	What about using it on the clients ? what does the license say ?	Aug 23 20:19
_Doug	“Alfresco Software, implements Microsoft’s SharePoint protocol t”	Aug 23 20:20
schestowitz	Yes, but remember these 30,000 pages or so of docs?	Aug 23 20:23
schestowitz	It’s not just that, but in general, they align software patents next to them. They can elevate the price of competitors that way. It’s what they intend to do to GNU/Linux, assuming Novell gets its way.	Aug 23 20:23
_Doug	“Deploying Microsoft Windows at the operating system level is the best option .. since Microsoft Windows is the only platform that supports Microsoft’s ECM, WCM, and collaboration platform (in addition to .. Alfresco)”	Aug 23 20:24
_Doug	http://download.microsoft.com/download/e/d/d…	Aug 23 20:24
schestowitz	From a software seller competing “man on man” it wants to evolve and become a licensing company (leech) that steals from all men.	Aug 23 20:24
schestowitz	It’s funny how he needs to suck up to Microsoft while slamming them at the same time	Aug 23 20:25
schestowitz	“THOSE DAMN MICROSOFTIES, they don’t give me access… not please, people Microsoft, can I please have access, thank you? I love you, Microsoft.”	Aug 23 20:25
schestowitz	It’s not just Alfresco by the way. Microsoft plays that game of punishment and reward with many rivals.	Aug 23 20:26
_Doug	“To become a proficient Linux administrator requires substantial skill and experience. Running Drupal, Alfresco, or other open source ECM, WCM, or collaboration tools on Windows does not require extra skill or experience”	Aug 23 20:26
_Doug	Windows is the new OPen Source ..	Aug 23 20:27
_Doug	“While Linux and Windows are interoperable, additional knowledge is required to integrate Linux servers into a Windows Active Directory environment”	Aug 23 20:27
_Doug		Aug 23 20:27
_Doug	Please put your OPen Source software on our ‘operating system level’ so as you will pay us revenue to run your thirdparty software on YOUr machines ..	Aug 23 20:31
schestowitz	Is this from Alfresco?	Aug 23 20:36
schestowitz	They deploy a lot more on Red Hat than on SUSE. Still more on GNU/Linux than on Win32, IIRC.	Aug 23 20:36
_Doug	Mary Jo Foley on the baked in Microsoft integration ..	Aug 23 20:36
_Doug	http://newton.typepad.com/content/2008/06…	Aug 23 20:36
_Doug	‘”On the server side of the house, Microsoft slowly but surely has been tying more and more of its products to SharePoint’	Aug 23 20:37
_Doug	“What does Microsoft mean by ‘interoperable’? Anything that can run on multiple versions of Windows, the old saying goes.”	Aug 23 20:37
_Doug	‘Horatio Gutierrez, Microsoft’s vice president of licensing, said in an interview that the alleged open-source infringement is “not accidental”.’	Aug 23 20:40
schestowitz	He used to blog for ZDNet.	Aug 23 20:41
schestowitz	He’s no longer active there. Perhaps John Newton realised that ZDNet is a Microsoft turf (astro?).	Aug 23 20:42
_Doug	ot: Red Hat Hacked ..	Aug 23 20:44
_Doug	http://www.adtmag.com/article.aspx?id=23149	Aug 23 20:44
_Doug	“Intruders capitalize on the geek factor of Linux and there are no licensing restrictions or elaborate security programs backed by big R&D teams; it’s an anonymous community.”	Aug 23 20:45
_Doug	Is this the end for ‘oipen source’ ?	Aug 23 20:45
_Doug	“Hensing [Microsoft] said he couldn’t “imagine what the fallout would be” if programs such as Windows Update and Automatic Update servers “got pwnd [owned] like [RedHat].” “	Aug 23 20:46
schestowitz	http://www.flickr.com/photos/20…	Aug 23 20:46
_Doug	Didn’t that happen some time ago ?	Aug 23 20:46
_Doug	photo deleted ..	Aug 23 20:46
schestowitz	http://adoguy.com/viewrant.aspx?id=2204	Aug 23 20:46
schestowitz	http://www.flickr.com/photos/2047…	Aug 23 20:47
jose__	i’m back	Aug 23 20:47
schestowitz	http://www.thecollegevoice.com/news…	Aug 23 20:47
MinceR	don’t things like that happen to winblows all the time?	Aug 23 20:47
jose__	how do you cancel / away	Aug 23 20:47
MinceR	there’s no fallout because their customers don’t care about quality	Aug 23 20:47
MinceR	jose__: /away without arguments	Aug 23 20:47
schestowitz	http://img99.imageshack.us/m…	Aug 23 20:47
schestowitz	http://msdn.microsoft.com/library/default…	Aug 23 20:47
jose__	didn’t seem to work to do / away again	Aug 23 20:48
MinceR	try /back then	Aug 23 20:48
MinceR	(it depends on the client)	Aug 23 20:48
jose__	thanx	Aug 23 20:48
MinceR	np	Aug 23 20:48
schestowitz	A lot of those screenshots of microsoft.com hacked are gone.	Aug 23 20:49
_Doug	Wasn’t Microsofts own servers hacked some time ago, got full access to the source ?	Aug 23 20:49
schestowitz	Microsoft also fixed that XSS flaw.	Aug 23 20:49
schestowitz	It was there for many months.	Aug 23 20:49
schestowitz	_Doug: when Microsoft gets hacked, it’s hush-hush	Aug 23 20:49
schestowitz	Big difference wrt RHAT	Aug 23 20:50
schestowitz	I saw our servers here getting hijacked because they ran Windows.	Aug 23 20:50
schestowitz	320,000,000 Windows zombies out there on a daily basis.	Aug 23 20:50
_Doug	It never happen, must unremember ..	Aug 23 20:51
_Doug	I’m talking about the internal development servers, that distributed the nightly builds ..	Aug 23 20:52
_Doug	bAck in FiVE ..	Aug 23 20:53
jose__	schestowitz: open docs from microsoft is not good enough	Aug 23 20:58
jose__	the docs are the fairytale that is told the public (not much different than ms marketing). the actual binaries they ship are all that count because of their monopolies.	Aug 23 20:59
jose__	when interop fails, it’s the new guy on the block that gets the book and looks suspiciously misimplemented	Aug 23 20:59
jose__	fix: “.. that gets the “boot*”	Aug 23 21:00
jose__	the binaries can appear to implement some interpretation of the docs some of the time etc.. inconsistently to any software besides ms’s since the world doesn’t know the secret handshakes	Aug 23 21:00
jose__	“.. the ms binaries can appear…”	Aug 23 21:01
jose__	the result is that anything but ms appears to be coded up by amateurs with no sense of quality control	Aug 23 21:01
jose__	i don’t know if matt asay realizes this (not sure if he is a developer at all by profession or hobby)	Aug 23 21:02
jose__	he may realize this though.. this can be good or bad, but i think whether realizes this or not, whether has bad intentions or not, running the ms rat race helps ms.	Aug 23 21:03
schestowitz	jose__: the docs are poor, that’s correct.	Aug 23 21:03
schestowitz	Like OOXML — big in volume, poor in content.	Aug 23 21:03
jose__	i may have gone over the top with the second comment on lt.. but every now and then it’s good to go over the top http://www.linuxtoday.com/news_st…	Aug 23 21:04
schestowitz	They also did this with Java and other third-party developers.	Aug 23 21:04
jose__	i agree there are doc problems.. but even odf can be exploited	Aug 23 21:04
jose__	ooxml makes it easier to have an excuse to avoid antitrust attacks	Aug 23 21:04
schestowitz	Novell to was screwed in this way. Netscape also… slow startup and all… the memos from the Iowa trial show this.	Aug 23 21:04
schestowitz	jose__: Asay knows almost nothing about development. He’s a solicitor.	Aug 23 21:05
schestowitz	Alfresco too is an illusion of competition and interop	Aug 23 21:06
schestowitz	Just like Loonlight [sic]	Aug 23 21:06
jose__	the point i want to get across is that it’s not the docs that is a problem.. it’s the fact that ANY docs (even quality docs) are but paper in an ms controlled marketplace.	Aug 23 21:06
jose__	the binaries are what count.. if you don’t interop with monopoly binaries, you lose.	Aug 23 21:07
schestowitz	Should I mail this to Asay, you think?	Aug 23 21:07
schestowitz	I spoke to him yesterday.	Aug 23 21:08
jose__	when dealing with corps, people need to remember that a person’s word is meaningless.. tomorrow they can easily be replaced by the stockholders so that their word is moot.	Aug 23 21:08
jose__	mail what?	Aug 23 21:08
schestowitz	jose__: Sharepoint protocols are not standardised. They will be expanded on the fly. It’s a moving target.	Aug 23 21:08
jose__	“protocols” are what are in the binaries not in the docs	Aug 23 21:09
jose__	it’s the binaries that count not the docs	Aug 23 21:09
schestowitz	Alfresco keeps going at the mercy of Microsoft. Shall Alfresco become too much of a threat like Java, Microsoft will get angry and throw toys out of the pram… or docs.	Aug 23 21:09
jose__	and ms is not revealing source code	Aug 23 21:09
jose__	.. yes, at will	Aug 23 21:09
schestowitz	jose__: mail a warning about this.	Aug 23 21:09
jose__	i don’t know the mindset of people.. what they know what they don’t know.. i post about this frequently. i’m sure alfresco devs know the risks. this is why i hesitate to get too personal because in the end it might just be the alfresco or company X business that decides the potential short term gains and risks are worthwhile.	Aug 23 21:12
jose__	ms lives off people willing to take short term risks for money today instead of a fight	Aug 23 21:12
jose__	we are in a position to bixxx and rant 24×7 because we don’t do any business with ms	Aug 23 21:13
jose__	but many “sensible” business people may just prefer to take various risks	Aug 23 21:13
jose__	i do hesitate to assume the worse when dealing closely with other humans	Aug 23 21:13
jose__	worse -> worst	Aug 23 21:13
schestowitz	Yes, I see what you mean.	Aug 23 21:14
schestowitz	Novell too needed the money.	Aug 23 21:14
schestowitz	I’m still trying to figure out just how badly Novell is cheating/fooling the SEC	Aug 23 21:14
jose__	yes, and it’s easy to attack “corporations”	Aug 23 21:14
jose__	easy easier	Aug 23 21:14
schestowitz	It had bank problems shortly before the deal with Microsoft (cash infusion)	Aug 23 21:14
schestowitz	You can pretty much assume all the US-based (and other countries) too cheat in their finance.	Aug 23 21:15
jose__	? !	Aug 23 21:15
jose__	yes.. or at least rely on “interpretations”	Aug 23 21:15
_Doug	creative accounting .. not so much now with the SEC requirements ..	Aug 23 21:15
schestowitz	http://boycottnovell.com/2007…	Aug 23 21:15
_Doug	Novell/MS deal, that sure was a short term deal, if there ever was one ..	Aug 23 21:16
_Doug	I would have tried for investment for a percentage ..	Aug 23 21:17
jose__	the ms novell deal(s) aren’t necessarily limited to what is revealed in public	Aug 23 21:18
jose__	this applies to everyone	Aug 23 21:19
jose__	gates has ownership in small “anonymous” companies, for example	Aug 23 21:19
jose__	and there is quid pro quo	Aug 23 21:19
schestowitz	Gates invests in trolls like Myhrvold, too	Aug 23 21:20
jose__	“Whatever you make of this, it seems safe to conclude that we find patterns here. From similarities one can predict just as from history one can learn”	Aug 23 21:20
schestowitz	I know he backs them, but it won’t say if he does this financially. It’s only natural to suspect this.	Aug 23 21:20
schestowitz	Yes, Novell is like Corel.	Aug 23 21:21
schestowitz	Should have learned from ‘Old’ Novell and Cisco too.	Aug 23 21:21
jose__	i’ll be away from desk for at least 4 or 5 hours soon.	Aug 23 21:22
schestowitz	I’ll stay here, either way.	Aug 23 21:23
_Doug	LAy off Myhrvold, he invented sous-vide ..	Aug 23 21:23
schestowitz	If his left ventricle worked better, he could INNOVA~1 the PgUp, PgDn himself.	Aug 23 21:25
schestowitz	Macro controls for scrolling. Who would have THUNK? Must take those geniuses at Redmond.	Aug 23 21:26
_Doug	where wha macro controlls ?	Aug 23 21:27
schestowitz	_Doug: I need to accumulate some shot-in-foot Nathan Myhrvold quotes for future reference. There should be plenty out there because the man is patents-insane.	Aug 23 21:27
schestowitz	Like, you know, when you flip paes with a finger and then use two finger to skip 10 pages of a book at a time…? Prior art… kind of 1980s, no? Maybe Gutenberg?	Aug 23 21:28
jose__	patents are an insult to mankind	Aug 23 21:29
jose__	it only makes sense in industries that have few inventors	Aug 23 21:29
jose__	anything related to software or the internet etc has a ton of inventors	Aug 23 21:29
jose__	plus the really good stuff are kept secrets… patents are used for their gov backed monopoly power so you want patents that include key things to keep people from following even if it’s obvious	Aug 23 21:30
jose__	with few inventors, few feathers are ruffled with bad patents.. also few inventors usually corrolates with high costs of development production etc	Aug 23 21:31
_Doug	‘Patent #: 5675811: “method for transmitting information over an intelligent low power serial bus’	Aug 23 21:31
_Doug	isn’t that USB ?	Aug 23 21:31
jose__	people near the forefront of human development are in a position to patent the most even if students or others would come to that very conclusion 5 years later or less	Aug 23 21:32
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schestowitz	PageRank is a patent	Aug 23 21:34
schestowitz	That’s the digital equivalent of what academia did (in an ‘analog’ fashion) for centuries.	Aug 23 21:34
jose__	all of these “from the analog world to the digital world” patent conversions/rebirths should automatically fail the “obviousness” test	Aug 23 21:37
jose__	“JUST ONE MONTH before the pact Novell was about to be delisted from Nasdaq and was having problems with the Wells Fargo Bank. I think the re-animator injection of 348 million by Microsoft converted Novell in the perfect zombie to perform its masters at Redmond commands.”	Aug 23 21:38
jose__	another side of this is that novl stockholders overlap with msft stockholders.. what a nice way to make bucks if you get one of your companies to bail out the other one at the 11th hour when main street amateur investors have sold their shares out of fear.	Aug 23 21:39
jose__	ditto with scox	Aug 23 21:39
jose__	the game can continue on and on	Aug 23 21:39
_Doug	Which stockholders overlap, do you have an URLs ?	Aug 23 21:40
jose__	in general the big money must be spread	Aug 23 21:40
jose__	eg,	Aug 23 21:40
jose__	it was stated in the news that almost all yahoo shareholders (top 20 except 1) held more in msft	Aug 23 21:41
jose__	you can’t plop all your money when you are a huge hedgefund or co or individual ..into a single company or even a small group of companies. you must spread the wealth	Aug 23 21:41
schestowitz	I know a site that tracks investors, but going 2 years back might be hard.	Aug 23 21:42
jose__	the ups and downs and timings work to the advantage of the big money insiders/dealmakers	Aug 23 21:42
_Doug	It would have been simpler for MS to buy Novell outright, but then again it wouldn’t be an IP protected Linux company ..	Aug 23 21:42
schestowitz	Just left this comment about Microsoft insiders (they call them “refugees and they spread FUD and Mono): http://boycottnovell.com/2008/08/23/be…	Aug 23 21:43
schestowitz	_Doug: they do it in phase, IMHO.	Aug 23 21:43
_Doug	Ns isn’t afraid of going back in court to face monopoly charges (again) after al lthey tried to buy Yahoo, mainly to get their hands on the search business ..	Aug 23 21:43
schestowitz	First the gentle news. It’s like Chinese torture.	Aug 23 21:43
jose__	_Doug: one reason not to buy novell is to avoid antitrust probs.	Aug 23 21:43
jose__	another reason is that novell is more trustworthy than a clear ms subsidiary	Aug 23 21:44
jose__	another is that novell may not be on board as much as we sometimes fear.. or at least reserve their right to actually compete..	Aug 23 21:44
schestowitz	jose__: true, that’s what Microsoft needs.	Aug 23 21:44
schestowitz	Watch what it did to Xen with Citrix.	Aug 23 21:44
jose__	yup	Aug 23 21:45
schestowitz	It escapes the GPL, the regulators and it needn’t spend money actually buying Citrix.	Aug 23 21:45
schestowitz	It’s a duopoly.	Aug 23 21:45
jose__	and to have it be done with ex-softies just turns my stomach.. maybe it’s hard to find troopers to go along.	Aug 23 21:45
_Doug	Novell: Yea, it’s more usefull in the chicken Coop ..	Aug 23 21:45
jose__	some people are so greedy they go to extremes not to share or grease palms.. ms will share only after all and then some of its options have been exhausted..	Aug 23 21:46
schestowitz	jose__: Black Duck’s Microsoft CEO jumped ship just after a huge sin for the GPL	Aug 23 21:47
schestowitz	http://boycottnovell.com/2008/08/16/dou…	Aug 23 21:47
jose__	it’s vomit inducing to see all the deceptions they commit.. i mean, goodness, pay someone off or something	Aug 23 21:47
jose__	yup	Aug 23 21:47
jose__	wonder what that is about.. anyway, i learned about that from BN	Aug 23 21:48
schestowitz	/s/sin/win/	Aug 23 21:48
jose__	at all costs and for keeps	Aug 23 21:48
schestowitz	Carla hasn’t linked to BN in a while. I wonder why.	Aug 23 21:48
jose__	ie, share nothing at all	Aug 23 21:48
schestowitz	Not even in relation to the Novell/Microsoft news	Aug 23 21:48
jose__	“sharepoint”	Aug 23 21:49
jose__	carla, sometimes links.. she’s been a little heavier on the tech stuff	Aug 23 21:49
schestowitz	HOWOs. cough	Aug 23 21:49
schestowitz	HOWTOs	Aug 23 21:50
jose__	i can understand that carla may not want to give any specific new source too much time.. lt becomes an easy target if it becomes too one-sided.. point is that people on lt know about BN and what is going on.. at least to some extent. most things on bn are also covered elsewhere, so….	Aug 23 21:51
jose__	anyway, don’t mean to speak for carla or defend her or anything.. we’ll see. i think she is doing fine.	Aug 23 21:52
schestowitz	Brian sort of vanished in LDN. No word from this project yet.	Aug 23 21:52
jose__	bn has a different focus so i expect different things from schestowitz ..	Aug 23 21:53
schestowitz	DC Barric is there to ‘police’ her. LOL	Aug 23 21:53
jose__	DC or CD?	Aug 23 21:53
schestowitz	Whicheevr.	Aug 23 21:53
schestowitz	“This is not Linux	Aug 23 21:53
schestowitz	“I don’t like this.”	Aug 23 21:53
schestowitz	“Good article”	Aug 23 21:53
jose__	yeah, i noticed of most regulars he has been a little less satisfied with carla	Aug 23 21:53
schestowitz	“No. Yes. Microsoft steals, cheats and lies”	Aug 23 21:53
jose__	not a big difference.. maybe it’s just coincidence over what i have read	Aug 23 21:53
jose__	yeah, that’s the poster.	Aug 23 21:54
schestowitz	It’s funny to me sometimes. I like your comments there BTW. I read them.	Aug 23 21:54
jose__		Aug 23 21:54
jose__	i’m not the best writer	Aug 23 21:54
jose__	but i have been improving	Aug 23 21:54
jose__	i tend to rely on volume to kill off opposition (j/k)	Aug 23 21:55
schestowitz	If it’s the same topic, it gets easier and more repetitive to explain.	Aug 23 21:55
jose__	exactly	Aug 23 21:55
jose__	practice makes perfect	Aug 23 21:55
jose__	that’s the trick	Aug 23 21:55
schestowitz	But it’s better to link than to repeat.	Aug 23 21:56
jose__	though some really do handle conversations and writing in general better.. you have decent control i think	Aug 23 21:56
jose__	don’t judge “how it should be done” by what I do.	Aug 23 21:56
schestowitz	In BN I link whenever I think I covered a point I am poised to write about. So each small article has an ‘expansion’ of points via hyperlinks.	Aug 23 21:56
jose__	i actually use these forums to iron out ideas.. i incorporate what i see others post quickly too.. if i like it.	Aug 23 21:57
schestowitz	I just write as I think or speak, then proofread, assuming it’s a blog and not USENET or IRC.	Aug 23 21:57
schestowitz	Articles are different because you must think before each sentence.	Aug 23 21:57
jose__	my excuse for sloppiness is that i post on a forum.. i don’t have an official blog or get paid etc.. anyway, back to novell	Aug 23 21:57
schestowitz	Yes, on topic.	Aug 23 21:57
schestowitz	Do you reckon it’s takeover target or just another Citrix?	Aug 23 21:58
schestowitz	Sun is ripe for takeover, but by whom?	Aug 23 21:58
jose__	people like you follow this and draw interesting conclusions.. i generally take an attitude (eg, in this specific case) that it might not matter.. but the key is to avoid ms	Aug 23 21:59
jose__	and be on guard	Aug 23 21:59
_Doug	Citrix: it’s irrelevant whether NS buys then outright, MS/Citrix are joined at the hip, only it’s the MS head that’s working the limbs ..	Aug 23 22:00
_Doug	ot: ( I can’t see the keys )	Aug 23 22:01
jose__	yeah, citrix keeps those that would replace windows from having to do so.. ms doesn’t cloud their message this way.	Aug 23 22:01
_Doug	Citrix, special ‘partner’, full access to MS secrets, third parties at a disadvantage .. same old tune ..	Aug 23 22:02
jose__	novell would be one level beyond citrix in that now you do in fact replace windows but through a friendly company and one that is proving its worth by making sure a bunch of higher level dependencies will exist.	Aug 23 22:02
_Doug	Yea, and Ms gets to sing the interoperability song ..	Aug 23 22:03
jose__	antitrust authorities and customers that may not realize the relationships feel better if ms officially works through “partners”	Aug 23 22:04
_Doug	amd pop up at ‘open source’ conferences .. or even organize some ..	Aug 23 22:04
_Doug	MS that is .. organizing conferences ..	Aug 23 22:04
jose__	ms wants to redefine FOSS.	Aug 23 22:05
jose__	to be at the center of the definition	Aug 23 22:05
jose__	once people learn to trust “foss” they find out it’s all about ms (that would be the effect)	Aug 23 22:06
jose__	ms redefined “share” .. sharepoint shared source etc	Aug 23 22:06
jose__	War is Peace etc	Aug 23 22:06
_Doug	‘Microsoft’s chief research and strategy officer Craig Mundiewill take the stage later today .. At Brainshare’	Aug 23 22:06
_Doug	NArch 2007 ..	Aug 23 22:06
jose__	brainshare ! lol	Aug 23 22:07
_Doug	brainwash . .:)	Aug 23 22:07
jose__	sharing is we keeping everything	Aug 23 22:07
jose__	http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/…	Aug 23 22:07
_Doug	let me share your IP litigation pain ..	Aug 23 22:08
jose__	yeah, “let us share for you”	Aug 23 22:08
_Doug	Some people I don’t know is threatening you, for a piece of the action, me and the boys will ‘protect’ you ..	Aug 23 22:08
jose__	we love open source.. you bsd, we’ll love you.	Aug 23 22:09
jose__	let us share your money	Aug 23 22:09
_Doug	of course the Open Source crowd knocking Novell is also good ..	Aug 23 22:09
jose__	and your information	Aug 23 22:09
_Doug	for Microsoft ..	Aug 23 22:10
jose__	yes, some organisms use their appendages that way.	Aug 23 22:10
_Doug	well if you/we support the NS/Novell deal, we strengthen MSs hand, if we attack Novell, we strengthen MSs hand ..	Aug 23 22:11
jose__	they can regenerate them once after they have been used to escape harm.	Aug 23 22:11
jose__	and the novell top brass will likely find a new home somewhere	Aug 23 22:11
jose__	demand ISO certification… laugh at ISO certification..	Aug 23 22:12
jose__	damned if we do damned if we don’t	Aug 23 22:12
jose__	pee in everyone else’s pool	Aug 23 22:12
_Doug	At the moment Novell is a pilot fish to MSs shark, where MS goes, Novell has to swim along .. not a good position for any company to be in ..	Aug 23 22:12
jose__	buy windows/vista etc is holy.	Aug 23 22:12
schestowitz LOL* “let me share your IP litigation pain .. ”		Aug 23 22:12
jose__	fix: “but windows/vista etc is holy”	Aug 23 22:13
_Doug	What is Novell doing recommending Vista .. I mean they have a desktop solution .. !!!!	Aug 23 22:13
_Doug	What msg is that sendign to the market ?	Aug 23 22:13
_Doug	What the f**k are they thinking ?	Aug 23 22:14
_Doug	The management I mean ..	Aug 23 22:14
jose__	Novell is executing on the 300+ million USD investment made on them.	Aug 23 22:14
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schestowitz	_Doug: they have an implicit agreement. Microsoft sells SUSE and shreds RHEL. In return, Novell helps Vista migrations.	Aug 23 22:14
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_Doug	“let me share your IP litigation pain”: it’s a reworking of a quotation from StarTrek where the mutant Vulcan brainwashes everyone :)	Aug 23 22:15
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schestowitz	BrainShare is a Novell event	Aug 23 22:15
jose__	novell is an ms satellite	Aug 23 22:15
schestowitz	Microsoft wasn’t there though (in 2008)	Aug 23 22:15
jose__		Aug 23 22:15
schestowitz	I followed it closely and it didn’t seem like Microsoft attended.	Aug 23 22:16
jose__	not there in body, you mean.	Aug 23 22:16
schestowitz	jose__: yes, not physically there.	Aug 23 22:16
schestowitz	Is SharePoint Shared source really?	Aug 23 22:16
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schestowitz	If so, that’s news to me./	Aug 23 22:16
jose__	maybe we should take a hint.. sometimes you “pay least attention” to what you think is more crucial than other things.	Aug 23 22:16
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jose__	don’t know.. “sharepoint” and “shared source” each abuse the meaning of the word “share”	Aug 23 22:17
_Doug	MS did organize other open source events,	Aug 23 22:18
jose__	..that’s all i meant.	Aug 23 22:18
jose__	ms redefined lots of things.	Aug 23 22:18
jose__	windows.	Aug 23 22:18
jose__	redefine and/or absorb once these words/brands/etc have achieved mindshare in the market	Aug 23 22:19
_Doug	‘Brad Smith Keynote: Open Source Business Conference’	Aug 23 22:19
_Doug	http://www.microsoft.com/presspass/e…	Aug 23 22:19
_Doug	Ahhhh …	Aug 23 22:19
jose__	“free” is tricky since it tends to imply $0, but they might find a creative way to steal it.. stay tuned.	Aug 23 22:19
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_Doug	Microsoft \| Open Source \| Business … seee … get the words in the one sentence . .and repeat .. repeat .. repeat .. MICROSOFT OPEN SOURCE !!!!	Aug 23 22:20
jose__	during the give 1 get 1 OLPC offer, they ran ads along the lines “buy 1 get 2″ to sell some product that you get for free through foss.	Aug 23 22:21
jose__	so they mocked OLPC by appearing to give customers more.	Aug 23 22:21
jose__	yet they were giving away something that customers would get for $0 through foss.	Aug 23 22:22
jose__	thus they come out looking like they give, while OLPC, the charity, comes out bad .. (and foss is not mentioned at all)	Aug 23 22:22
schestowitz	_Doug: Microsoft made up OSBC… or made it happen	Aug 23 22:23
schestowitz	Asay told me this. Microsoft was among the first to throw money at it. It sponsors just about any FOSS conference now. Linux /TOO/. It’s like a dog sniffing FOSS developers and chasing them while wagging that tail.	Aug 23 22:24
_Doug	Well yea .. but for anyone who gets their news from FOX .. all they see is MS OSBC .. see .. it’s about mindshare .. er advertising ..	Aug 23 22:24
_Doug	ot: what did the MS/Sun deal do for Sun ?	Aug 23 22:25
schestowitz	OOo protection.	Aug 23 22:25
schestowitz	2004 you mean?	Aug 23 22:25
jose__	<schestowitz: no, it’s like the devil in the shape of a dog…	Aug 23 22:26
schestowitz	Actually make tat StarOffice. And some other things like protocols, I think.	Aug 23 22:26
_Doug	Do they speak a different version of English out there at 1 MS Way: “we believe that there is a role for proprietary innovation in protocols as wel”	Aug 23 22:26
schestowitz	jose__: I was going to say devil’s tail, but I try to keep polite.	Aug 23 22:26
_Doug	Brad Smith says: ..	Aug 23 22:26
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schestowitz	he.viewimages.com/xc/3198984.jpg?v=1&am p;c=ViewImages&k=2&d=17A4 AD9FDB9CF193B3EA2C03450C9486236837 3C70DA1D715A5397277B4DC33E	Aug 23 22:26
schestowitz	http://cache.viewimages.com/xc/3198984.jpg?v=… pardon me)	Aug 23 22:27
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jose__	and i was going to add a smily face, but decided to leave the politeness to you.	Aug 23 22:27
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_Doug	Wasn’t he supposed to fall on his sword ?	Aug 23 22:27
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_Doug	“You don’t need a patent license for the development work for these protocols”	Aug 23 22:29
_Doug	“If, however, you are a commercial company .. we ask you to ask yourself whether you need a patent license .. and we’ll make it cheap, with very low royalties”	Aug 23 22:29
twitter	M$’s version of sharing is, “What’s ours is ours and what’s yours is ours.”	Aug 23 22:30
_Doug	It’s like they have a special compiler out there at MS, you put in standard English and out comes thiis disengenious, distorted, dishonest waffle ..	Aug 23 22:30
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_Doug	The protocols are free, except they’re not ..	Aug 23 22:31
twitter	That helps clarify the meaning of shared source.	Aug 23 22:31
jose__	tax	Aug 23 22:32
_Doug	translation: we let you develop applications for the MS platform, and then pay Microsoft for eveery copy you sell to third parties ..	Aug 23 22:32
jose__	you can’t go out of business if you can tax everyone	Aug 23 22:32
jose__	even an initially low tax	Aug 23 22:32
schestowitz	_Doug: they try to game Kroes & Commission at the time. Same with Novell. They screwed Samba, leaving it alone.	Aug 23 22:32
jose__	your competitors go out of business though because they can’t tax.	Aug 23 22:33
_Doug	We also convince you that we are doing you a favor ..	Aug 23 22:33
jose__	then the tax rises.	Aug 23 22:33
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schestowitz	GNU/Linux is like a Switzerland to developers.	Aug 23 22:34
jose__	the key will be to spread the message of the real ms to “regular people”.	Aug 23 22:34
twitter	There’s no favor being done with non free software.	Aug 23 22:34
schestowitz	It’s neutral. The same goes for OEMs.	Aug 23 22:34
jose__	operating systems are “regular people” topics discussed at the dinner table, so we have to get creative.	Aug 23 22:34
schestowitz	jose__: “People” as in “people-ready”	Aug 23 22:34
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jose__	hey, is seinfeld available?	Aug 23 22:35
_Doug	“we believe that patents are best sorted out by industry leaders so that developers and customers don’t have to deal with these issues themselves”	Aug 23 22:35
twitter	It does not matter if ownership of software comes from NDAs or patents, it’s all hostile to the user.	Aug 23 22:35
jose__		Aug 23 22:35
schestowitz	Novell does the customers a “favour”	Aug 23 22:35
jose__	easy easier	Aug 23 22:35
jose__	be a hero	Aug 23 22:35
schestowitz	They want to “take these issue off the table”. Hovsepsian’s words, IIRC.	Aug 23 22:35
schestowitz	Hove-spin	Aug 23 22:36
twitter	Eliminating software patents would be a better way to relieve developers and customers.	Aug 23 22:36
jose__	_Doug: market fixing and/or raising the hurdle to keep most players out.	Aug 23 22:36
schestowitz	In Europe, Microsoft is running ACT (lobbying/shill arm) to demand similar royalties as law.	Aug 23 22:36
jose__	twitter: stop it with the straight talk!	Aug 23 22:37
_Doug	Yea, if you are a small five man outfit, and you have to hire a lawyer to check the code, costs are going to go up . .:)	Aug 23 22:37
schestowitz	I don’t know if you guys have been following this.	Aug 23 22:37
schestowitz	They even called the BSA to pressure in the EU for this time of non-ZRAND	Aug 23 22:37
schestowitz	Asay was rather furious but only in a gentle way.	Aug 23 22:37
schestowitz	Alfresco customers are in Europe (many of them) and Microsoft wants to privilege to change for imaginary funnels (protocols)	Aug 23 22:38
schestowitz	*charge, not change.	Aug 23 22:38
jose__	my worry then is that microsoft, the bad cop, creates the artificial scarecities that the others then get a crack at.	Aug 23 22:39
jose__	ms has lived off this type of abuse, leverage,..	Aug 23 22:39
_Doug	There are other IP litigation players, remember Blackberry ..	Aug 23 22:40
jose__	.. and deception. The “partners” almost always lose.. unless maybe they are run by an ex-softie perhaps.	Aug 23 22:40
jose__	maybe the “protection” ms gives companies involve an ex-softie running the show.	Aug 23 22:41
twitter	Here’s a funny I saw yesterday. The M$ Airplane. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eclipse_500	Aug 23 22:42
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twitter	It’s run by an ex softie. Check the business methods. Fast and lose FAA certs	Aug 23 22:43
_Doug	breaking news: IE 8 to wipe out phishing ..	Aug 23 22:44
_Doug	http://www.theregister.co.uk/2008/08…	Aug 23 22:44
jose__	twitter: ms can/will leverage their os+X monopoly to take over the private jet business	Aug 23 22:44
_Doug	“the filter only acts on web pages that can result in the execution of scripts”	Aug 23 22:45
jose__	they have no bounds.	Aug 23 22:45
_Doug	isn’t that something like noscript ?	Aug 23 22:45
jose__	people take them for granted.. hey, look at bill gates and the butterflies and rolling hills.	Aug 23 22:45
twitter	Eclipse is not doing so well … http://canadianpress.google.com/arti…	Aug 23 22:45
_Doug	In the movie “the Island”, the ‘directory’ ran on MS live search, complete with butterfly .. that’s set in the future, so must be true ..	Aug 23 22:46
twitter	I saw a better article that talked about how they were only going to let go of “temp” workers and people who had been with the company less than six months.	Aug 23 22:46
twitter	perma temps, another M$ business innovation.	Aug 23 22:46
_Doug	In terms of business, MS only acts like anyother business, keep the costs down, outsource etc ..	Aug 23 22:47
twitter	No, I think they have been a real leader in screwing employees. It’s sort of like Walmart and Chinese imports.	Aug 23 22:48
dsmith_	heh	Aug 23 22:48
dsmith_	good point witter	Aug 23 22:49
dsmith_	*twitter	Aug 23 22:49
dsmith_	when I ran IT at the office my budget was $5000/year	Aug 23 22:49
dsmith_	wanna know what it is now?	Aug 23 22:49
dsmith_	lol	Aug 23 22:49
jose__	to last in ms you have to be made of a certain substance. everyone else is temp i suppose. temp clearance and temp treatment.. actually ms sells its brand. who wouldn’t want to work at ms, even if as a slave, right?	Aug 23 22:50
_Doug	Yea, like most other business strategies, MS does push it harder than most, very hard ball ..	Aug 23 22:50
twitter	What’s the old saw? If you think it’s OK to screw customers for the benefit of share holders and employees you will eventually get around to screwing everyone because you think it’s OK to screw people.	Aug 23 22:50
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_Doug	YOu think, MS is bad .. that’s modern market capitalism for you ..	Aug 23 22:51
_Doug	YOu either work for a company or start your own, and exploit someone else .. preferably in another country ..	Aug 23 22:51
jose__	yeah, i wouldn’t put ms at the bottom of any list. not because i have first hand account but i imagine that is not where they release their worst	Aug 23 22:51
jose__	list of employee treatment quality.	Aug 23 22:52
_Doug	Employees are just a ‘resource’ totally expendable .. sorry to burst your bubble any newly qualified IT people reading this ..	Aug 23 22:52
jose__	the mob treats family that perform very well ..if you don’t mind the thought you could get buried alive on your next slip up.	Aug 23 22:52
_Doug	time to go .. have things to do ..	Aug 23 22:53
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jose__	i have to go too	Aug 23 22:53
jose__	yeah, in hindsight, i don’t think living in fear and being wed to the mob can be considered a good career move.	Aug 23 22:54
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schestowitz	Microsoft is screwing Red hat: http://www.theregister.co.uk/2008/08/19/…	Aug 23 22:58
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schestowitz	By coping with a loss against VMWare they can prevent entry of non-SUSE Linuxes from entering the server room. It’s a long-term investment.	Aug 23 22:58
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Duhhhh	this mibbit thing is kinda neat	Aug 23 23:04
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schestowitz	Hey, Duhhhh	Aug 23 23:05
dsmith_	Duhhhh was me	Aug 23 23:09
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schestowitz	Yeah, I wasn’t sure. I though it was Soug	Aug 23 23:11
twitter	I don’t know enough about virtual machines. Lenny’s got Virtual box and Wine, isn’t that all anyone needs?	Aug 23 23:11
schestowitz	*Doug	Aug 23 23:11
schestowitz	For desktop, yes… xVM	Aug 23 23:11
twitter	Google does not share their software but don’t they also have virtualization?	Aug 23 23:14
twitter	I suppose my question is, how does M$’s slightly less obnoxious licensing threaten Red Hat?	Aug 23 23:16
dsmith_	I was looking at Vmware ESX – ESXi – OpenVZ	Aug 23 23:18
schestowitz	Hyper-V denies entry by all Linuxes other than SUSE or put them at a position of disadvantage. Microsoft just needs to ensure it can replace KVM and primarily VMWare at all costs	Aug 23 23:18
dsmith_	but for now I just use vmware server	Aug 23 23:18
twitter	So Hyper-V is crap. Why will people want to use it? Some cooperation from their buddies at Intel?	Aug 23 23:19
twitter	I understand the intent, but the same strategy has not worked out so well for Windows Media and Zune.	Aug 23 23:20
schestowitz	twitter: they sign some contracts.They’ll figure something out (hopefully they want). I’ll be watching.	Aug 23 23:21
twitter	Good to keep an eye on it, but I’m predicting massive fail.	Aug 23 23:22
schestowitz	But, but, but… what’s what Didio[t] and Chaps say: http://boycottnovell.com/2008/08/01/… http://boycottnovell.com/2008/04/18/yankee…	Aug 23 23:23
twitter	“I’m going to get Hyper V because it only runs Suse” makes as much sense as, “I’m getting a Zune because it only works with Windows”	Aug 23 23:23
schestowitz	http://www.groklaw.net/pdf/Comes-3096.pdf “”Working behind the scenes to orchestrate “independent” praise of our technology, and damnation of the enemy’s, is a key evangelism function during the Slog. “Independent” analyst’s report should be issued, praising your technology and damning the competitors (or ignoring them). “Independent” consultants should write columns and articles, give conference presentations..”	Aug 23 23:24
twitter	all for just $200/hour.	Aug 23 23:27
schestowitz	‘Just;	Aug 23 23:27
twitter	I’m surprised anyone publishes the Didiot anymore.	Aug 23 23:27
schestowitz	http://boycottnovell.com/2008/08/04/p…	Aug 23 23:28
schestowitz	http://boycottnovell.com/2008/08/03/…	Aug 23 23:28
schestowitz	If they get paid $200/hour for a slog, how much do they get for snooping and spying? And for Sys-con libelous slime?	Aug 23 23:29
twitter	I’m not sure, I think the $200/hour figure comes from the SLOG doc itself.	Aug 23 23:29
schestowitz	http://news.cnet.com/8301-102…	Aug 23 23:30
schestowitz	Is it true that a criminal from Microsoft wanted to be running mate for Obama?	Aug 23 23:30
schestowitz	“SLOG doc”… LOL	Aug 23 23:31
twitter	McCain said he wanted Steve Ballmer on his cabinet.	Aug 23 23:31
schestowitz	GrokDoc, SlogDoc…. is there als a GrokSlog.net?	Aug 23 23:31
schestowitz	twitter: I know about that criminal. But Chairman Gates wanted to be with the Dems I was told.	Aug 23 23:32
dsmith_	chairman	Aug 23 23:32
dsmith_	lol	Aug 23 23:32
schestowitz	Although I’m sure that with his Senator grandpa and other ‘valuable connections’, he’s already corrupting the system from the outside/by proxy.	Aug 23 23:33
schestowitz	Well, for a fact he was phoning US diplomats to reverse a “No” vote on OOXML in the US. And it worked!	Aug 23 23:33
twitter	Look into the Carlyle Group. They do a lot of “investment” in the regulated sector. Crony money for nothing.	Aug 23 23:33
schestowitz	He also has the Mexican president and the French president help him on the face of it. Now he plays politics in China and recently, shortly after that pseudo-departure, he chatted with the UN, which was going to embrace FOSS.	Aug 23 23:34
schestowitz	Robert Carlyle usually plays the crook in British films, so I don’t rust no “Carlyle Group”	Aug 23 23:35
twitter	With all that flying, he’s a one many global warmer.	Aug 23 23:35
schestowitz	Private plane?	Aug 23 23:35
schestowitz	Probably 2.	Aug 23 23:36
schestowitz	One for the stash of money and one for him and the lobbyists. The former is a cargo plane.	Aug 23 23:36
twitter	747 with gold toilets.	Aug 23 23:36
twitter	http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Carlyle_Group	Aug 23 23:36
twitter	Steve gets the deck with rubber walls and chairs that are not riveted to the floor.	Aug 23 23:37
schestowitz	Big,far cargo plane… http://www.metacafe.com/watch/892…	Aug 23 23:38
twitter	http://slashdot.org/article.pl?sid=…	Aug 23 23:38
schestowitz	Carlyle Group… just read some… sounds like a classic pothole for legalised bribery, AKA “lobbying”.	Aug 23 23:40
schestowitz	“Carlyle was founded in 1987 by Stephen L. Norris…”	Aug 23 23:40
schestowitz	“”Just when you thought it was all over, the SCO story takes a new twist. SCO has received $100 million financing from Stephen Norris Capital Partners”	Aug 23 23:41
twitter	It’s more incestuous than that. They can buy a part of a company and then get them to buy something stupid like Windoze before dumping it.	Aug 23 23:41
schestowitz	Can’t find a connection: http://www.google.com/search?num…	Aug 23 23:42
twitter	Their specialty though, is doing this kind of thing to regulated business, so that they get monopoly money for their purchases.	Aug 23 23:42
twitter	Funding SCO is not connection?	Aug 23 23:42
schestowitz	http://www.google.com/search?num=50&…	Aug 23 23:43
schestowitz	BayStar investiment.	Aug 23 23:43
twitter	If Didiot’s shilling is connection, surely handing $100 million to them is.	Aug 23 23:43
schestowitz	http://www.google.com/search?num=50&…	Aug 23 23:43
schestowitz	I posted an update on this some hours ago: http://boycottnovell.com/2008/08/23/sco-… PJ reckons they won’t get the money.	Aug 23 23:44
twitter	Here’s a funny one. http://64.233.169.104/search?q=cache:KxC…	Aug 23 23:47
twitter	Not so funny is their involvement with domestic spying.	Aug 23 23:48
schestowitz	“Honestly, I don’t worry about the spam issue anymore. This solution has saved me about two to three hours each week.”	Aug 23 23:49
schestowitz	“Spam will be a thing of the past in two years’ time.” Bill Gates, 2004	Aug 23 23:50
twitter	http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard…	Aug 23 23:50
schestowitz	And these days, about 120,000,000,000 SPAM per day is sent from Windows zombies	Aug 23 23:50
schestowitz	Oh wait!	Aug 23 23:51
twitter	http://blogs.wsj.com/deals/category…	Aug 23 23:51
schestowitz	Recently I found this one: “Microsoft Building Searched By Feds Investigating High-Priced Hookers … Federal investigators executed a search warrant at Microsoft’s Mountain View, Calif., offices earlier this month as part of an investigation into a high-priced call girl ring similar to the one used by former New York Gov. Eliot Spitzer. “	Aug 23 23:52
schestowitz	From http://www.informationweek.com/management/s…	Aug 23 23:52
schestowitz	http://www.informationweek.com/management/showA…	Aug 23 23:52
twitter	http://www.earthnews.net/articles/carl…	Aug 23 23:53
twitter	M$ whores? Ha ha	Aug 23 23:53
twitter	Carlyle has been used for a lot of shadowy deals. It exploded recently for reasons I don’t remember.	Aug 23 23:55
schestowitz	http://www.prisonplanet.com/articles/… Search for “Gates”	Aug 23 23:55
twitter	The French poodle’s brother, Olivier Sarkozy is part of their group.	Aug 23 23:58
schestowitz	Really??	Aug 23 23:58
schestowitz	Well, that explains some things.	Aug 23 23:59
twitter	GWB has a lot to do with them and the war for oil, I mean the war on terrorism.	Aug 23 23:59
schestowitz	I suppose you’ve reader about Sarko. Search BN.com for it shall you require to see how he fights FOSS.	Aug 23 23:59
twitter	M$, ATT and others are a big part of the war against rights.	Aug 23 23:59