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IRC: #boycottnovell @ FreeNode: November 20th, 2008 – Part 2

Posted in IRC Logs at 6:41 am by Dr. Roy Schestowitz


Enter the IRC channel now

PetoKraus Blizzard oh Nov 20 14:44
PetoKraus i face a conflict of interests there Nov 20 14:45
PetoKraus ;) Nov 20 14:45
PetoKraus i’ll even boot into windows to play Sc2 Nov 20 14:45
schestowitz Well it’s not 0xdeadbeef Blizzard Nov 20 14:45
schestowitz The real Blizzard supports Ogg and Web standards Nov 20 14:45
MinceR lol blizzard Nov 20 14:45
schestowitz The company tarnishes Mozilla’s name. Nov 20 14:46
MinceR the company that keeps selling “strategy games” that have nothing whatsoever to do with strategy Nov 20 14:46
PetoKraus MinceR: are you kidding? Nov 20 14:46
MinceR nope Nov 20 14:46
schestowitz Strategy::DRM Nov 20 14:46
schestowitz To ‘protect’ the games Nov 20 14:46
PetoKraus man, it’s strategy games are best since Age of kings Nov 20 14:46
seller_ http://diablo3x.com/diablo-3… Nov 20 14:46
seller_ download the package and see the diablo 3 manual Nov 20 14:47
trmanco The Mono 2.0 transition (and how to survive it): https://lists.ubuntu.com/archives/ubuntu-devel/200… Nov 20 14:47
PetoKraus Starcraft, Warcraft 3 own easily anything except AoE2 on the market Nov 20 14:47
MinceR the best strategy games are Total Annihilation, Age of Kings and probably Supreme Commander Nov 20 14:47
MinceR SC and WC3 are ludicrous. Nov 20 14:47
trmanco don’t forget to check the posters email Nov 20 14:47
PetoKraus how’s SC ludicrous? Nov 20 14:47
trmanco directhex Nov 20 14:48
MinceR it has a unit selection limit, few units, few options and horribly ugly graphics Nov 20 14:48
PetoKraus aha Nov 20 14:48
PetoKraus well it relies on micromanagement Nov 20 14:48
PetoKraus your units HAVE options Nov 20 14:48
MinceR well, micromanagement belongs in action games. Nov 20 14:48
PetoKraus it’s extremely well balanced Nov 20 14:48
PetoKraus and unlike AoK, it doesn’t have clear winning strategy Nov 20 14:48
MinceR like Click-On-The-Monster (also known as Diablo) Nov 20 14:49
seller_ hey people stop ,this is boycottnovell irc ,heheh Nov 20 14:49
MinceR if an RTS relies excessively on micromanagement, that means the developers have failed severely at the UI and unit AI. Nov 20 14:49
seller_ and not a game irc Nov 20 14:49
PetoKraus well, every game relies on mm if you have to play it professionall Nov 20 14:50
PetoKraus *y Nov 20 14:50
PetoKraus i’d say, the mm of AoK is even more difficult than say Starcraft Nov 20 14:50
seller_ STOP! heheh Nov 20 14:51
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seller_ Look at diablo 3 toolkit to see the docx format Nov 20 14:51
schestowitz Leveraging the commons for advantage: http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/entertainm… ( Web debut for Guns N’ Roses album ) Nov 20 14:51
seller_ You will see but you will not read Nov 20 14:51
trmanco schestowitz, https://lists.ubuntu.com/archives/ubuntu… | does the email look familiar Nov 20 14:53
trmanco ? Nov 20 14:53
schestowitz I know the person Nov 20 14:53
schestowitz It’s the same pro-Mono fighter from Ubutu Forums. Nov 20 14:54
schestowitz They need Mono.. they do it for a living and the poison the most-used distro Nov 20 14:54
trmanco yes Nov 20 14:54
trmanco directhex Nov 20 14:54
schestowitz The problem is that Mark S and some ‘yes men’ will just nod and think that these people are interested in the success of Ubuntu, as opposed to .NET Nov 20 14:55
maxstirner they had a poll on mono in the forum and several recurring discussions Nov 20 14:57
maxstirner i think the poll was 130 vs 130 or whatever although theres only a default sticky notes application that really needs it Nov 20 14:57
schestowitz This is stupid: Open-Source the Board < http://fussnotes.typepad.com/plexn… > “The problem with this is that only Warren Buffett, George Soros and Micheal Schrage have enough smarts, common sense and self-effacing humor (read ‘humanity’)…” Nov 20 14:57
schestowitz Why is it that people moronically assume that those with wealth are smart? Nov 20 14:58
MinceR why do people assume that ‘humanity’ is a positive thing? Nov 20 14:58
maxstirner because they also moronically assume that capitalism is a meritocracy Nov 20 14:58
schestowitz There are many boorish people who are rich (and ruthless, if not corrupt)? The press needs to stop echoing the rich and famous and though they know better. Nov 20 14:58
schestowitz macabe: polls can be gamed Nov 20 14:59
maxstirner :D the revolution will not be televised roy Nov 20 14:59
schestowitz Let me find example of Java vs .NET Nov 20 14:59
maxstirner http://br.youtube.com/watch?v=uTCQSk2l8bc Nov 20 15:00
schestowitz This is a multi-billion dollar question. Do you really think they won’t manipulate this with their de Icazas? Nov 20 15:00
schestowitz Here: http://boycottnovell.com/2008/08/… Nov 20 15:01
maxstirner naturally… i was surprised theres only 130 contra, not surprised they got 130 accounts going pro Nov 20 15:01
maxstirner they probably got people dedicated to this sort of online opinion shaping ™ (r) :D Nov 20 15:02
schestowitz It’s easy to stuff. Nov 20 15:03
twitter Wow, google was unable to display M$FT Nov 20 15:03
schestowitz It’s a vulnerability in FOSS, just like ISO Nov 20 15:03
schestowitz They can put cronies in. Slush funds. Nov 20 15:03
twitter ” and could not complete your request.Please try again in 30 seconds.” Nov 20 15:03
twitter and I’m using the non flash interface Nov 20 15:03
twitter There we go, new 52 week low, $ 18.00 Nov 20 15:04
schestowitz What’s the market cap? Nov 20 15:05
twitter 161 billion Nov 20 15:05
schestowitz I thought about it last week at the gym… if the debt of the US is over 10 milliard and the companies that shape the US lose so much in terms of value, then the US is in trouble… GM going to China… like part of the Banks here go to the prince of Dubai Nov 20 15:06
schestowitz And why, as maxstirner says, is this rubbish hardly televised. I think it’s intended to keep morale high. Nov 20 15:06
PetoKraus well obviously, that’s why they hate the osbourne guy now Nov 20 15:07
twitter ignorance can spark panic too, it’s a losing game Nov 20 15:07
schestowitz In fact, all those secret meetings (not just ACTA, but G8 summits and Bilderberg) make more sense when you realise they had world bankers there. They must have seen what was coming. Nov 20 15:07
PetoKraus or how’s he called… shadow chancellor Nov 20 15:07
twitter planned? Nov 20 15:07
schestowitz Huh? Nov 20 15:08
twitter If they saw what was coming, ACTA is a pure waste of time. Nov 20 15:08
schestowitz Why? Nov 20 15:08
maxstirner global rebalancing of power.. Nov 20 15:08
schestowitz Border control, laptop searches without warrant.. Nov 20 15:08
schestowitz My good friend at the gym has two masters and he knows this well. Nov 20 15:08
schestowitz His guess is that it’s done as an excuse for global currency (other would say globalisation) Nov 20 15:09
schestowitz But I don’t necessary go this far or believe it. Nov 20 15:09
twitter I’ve read the recession was planned as a way to consolidate concentration of wealth.  ACTA makes it a power grab too. Nov 20 15:09
twitter bbl Nov 20 15:09
schestowitz It would be useful to hear ‘outsiders’ and independent thinkers talking about it. Nov 20 15:09
schestowitz Bear in mind that imaginary property caused some of this and people with BM and SW patents now suffer from Bilski too. Nov 20 15:10
schestowitz They had so-called ‘assets’ that become worthless overnight. Nov 20 15:10
schestowitz You can introduce a ot of capital that does not exist by making patents, mortgages, print money, etc. Nov 20 15:11
Omar87 schestowitz: It turns out I was wrong after all, Red Hat did lock the Red Hat distro. away.. Nov 20 15:12
trmanco schestowitz, what is that select and quote text feature called on Knode? Nov 20 15:12
trmanco do you know any similar extension that does the same in Thunderbird? Nov 20 15:13
schestowitz trmanco: Tools- > Add Box Nov 20 15:14
schestowitz I don’t use TB for NGs Nov 20 15:15
seller_ about this Nov 20 15:15
seller_ Have you tested the penelope Nov 20 15:15
trmanco schestowitz, thanks Nov 20 15:16
seller_ try eudora Nov 20 15:17
schestowitz Eudora is TB now (sort of Nov 20 15:17
schestowitz Mozilla inherited maintenance responsibilities or something at the time. Nov 20 15:18
seller_ yes , but have some new features Nov 20 15:18
seller_ or try the penolope extension Nov 20 15:18
trmanco :|, I guess I will have to do that well looking ASCII quote art manually Nov 20 15:20
schestowitz If you install KDE (sudo apt-get install kde-desktop), then you can run KNode just to do the editing. Nov 20 15:22
schestowitz OMG, twitter would love this. after yesterday’s chat…..BNP list hunters bring down Wikileaks < http://www.theregister.co.uk/2008… > Nov 20 15:23
schestowitz Once again the ‘elites’ of the government refuse to reveal their Orwellian ‘crowd control’ Nov 20 15:24
schestowitz Oh wait. Nov 20 15:24
Omar87 schestowitz: What do you think of what stevetheFLY had said about Red Hat? Nov 20 15:24
schestowitz stevetheFLY is “eet”, a Novell shills or something. He has bothered us for a long time. Nov 20 15:25
Omar87 schestowitz: It turns out that our main enemy is everything that calls itself a “corporation”, regardless of whether it’s Red Hat, Canonical, Microsoft, Novell.. etc. Nov 20 15:26
Omar87 They’re all evil, they’re all bastards.. -_- Nov 20 15:27
schestowitz SOme more than others and some are willing to listen. Nov 20 15:27
Omar87 schestowitz: Excuse me? Nov 20 15:28
schestowitz The leadership determines how evil a corporation gets. Nov 20 15:30
schestowitz There’s need for new rules and regulation. Nov 20 15:30
Omar87 Actually, if we’re really serious about fighting against anything and everything that calls itself a corporation, then we’d better go jump off a cliff and die.. :D Nov 20 15:30
schestowitz But lobbyists serve ad doormen/bouncers at the door to law-changing. Nov 20 15:31
schestowitz No, the problem is restoration of govt power. Nov 20 15:31
schestowitz Strong governments control the industry. Nov 20 15:31
schestowitz In the US, the industry has outgrown the government and is virtually running the govt. Nov 20 15:32
PetoKraus well we might argue to what extent do you wanna control the industry Nov 20 15:32
PetoKraus draconian measures aren’t good either Nov 20 15:32
schestowitz This means that CEOs of companies like GM, IBM, etc. are running the US and there is no new candidacy once in 4 years. Nov 20 15:32
seller_ only people can stop this circle Nov 20 15:33
seller_ stop buy IBM ,stop buy coca-cola,stop buy ms ,stop buy GM ,stop buy from unethcial companies Nov 20 15:33
seller_ but people only thinks in beer and sex Nov 20 15:34
schestowitz DRM traps for the elderly: http://blog.seattlepi.nwsource.com/microso… Nov 20 15:34
seller_ people suuffer because this Nov 20 15:34
Omar87 schestowitz: You know what? To hell with Red Hat, Linux is not Red Hat, nor IBM, nor Novell. Nov 20 15:34
schestowitz http://blog.seattlepi.nwsource.com/micr… “Competitors, though, immediately dismissed the move as a way for Microsoft to save face because of what they said was OneCare’s low market share.” Nov 20 15:35
schestowitz Omar87: who said it was any company? Nov 20 15:35
schestowitz Maybe some trolls in BN Nov 20 15:35
Omar87 schestowitz: Linux is the kernel that you can easily download from www.kernel.org, and build your very own distro out of it. :) Nov 20 15:35
PetoKraus with it. Nov 20 15:36
PetoKraus or you can use Hurd :P Nov 20 15:36
Omar87 schestowitz: So people like stevetheFLY, Rosa Bernardson, Gentoo user, can easily go bang their heads against the wall. :) Nov 20 15:37
schestowitz Linux could move to GPlv3 and regardless, it’s yours to use and it improves all the time. Nov 20 15:37
Omar87 schestowitz: Yeah. Nov 20 15:38
schestowitz Omar87: I can’t believe you take the words of trolls seriously or maybe I should flag to identify them Nov 20 15:38
Omar87 schestowitz: No, but it got me a bit worried, lol. :D Nov 20 15:38
schestowitz Tens of thousands of people read BN, so the people from Germany (near SUSE) post pro-Novell comments to deceive. Nov 20 15:38
schestowitz Maybe we should consider flagging the German IPs. Nov 20 15:39
maxstirner do you publish your traffic nos at all? Nov 20 15:39
maxstirner please dont flag my german ip :D Nov 20 15:39
Omar87 maxstirner: lol, :) Nov 20 15:39
schestowitz macabe: no, no IPs Nov 20 15:40
schestowitz It just helps me keep track of people like eet who morph all the time. Nov 20 15:40
schestowitz maxstirner: any particular reason to keep #s secret? Nov 20 15:40
maxstirner none i could think of.. i was actually wondering the other day what sort of figures you get these days Nov 20 15:41
maxstirner rough unique visitors per day? Nov 20 15:41
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maxstirner you should sell some advertising space to microtoss :D Nov 20 15:42
schestowitz Unique? 46859 this month. Nov 20 15:43
maxstirner nice :) Nov 20 15:43
maxstirner you probably get quite high up on google for keyword novell in fact :D Nov 20 15:43
schestowitz But many are subscribers. Nov 20 15:43
maxstirner i see, rss Nov 20 15:43
Omar87 What’s an eet btw? Nov 20 15:43
schestowitz Pages served are about half a million this month, 190,000 served to spiders. Nov 20 15:44
maxstirner you do publish a lot as well, i’m impressed with your commitment Nov 20 15:44
schestowitz Omar87: See http://boycottnovell.com/2007/11/22/eet-strommael-gmx-net/ and http://boycottnovell.com/2007/11/2… Nov 20 15:44
maxstirner Linux.com :: Boycott Novell: Champion of freedom or den of paranoia? this article about you is on page 2 for google “novell” Nov 20 15:45
schestowitz maxstirner: it it has impact, I might as well go with the flow. Nov 20 15:45
schestowitz Not good publicity for Novell. Not for BN, either. Nov 20 15:45
maxstirner any publicity is good publicity :D Nov 20 15:45
schestowitz The journalist who came to me wrote: Nov 20 15:46
schestowitz “I came across a < http://www.linux.com/feature/151215 >this criticism of your efforts in an online article. You have probably already seen it. How do you respond to this?” Nov 20 15:46
schestowitz I responded with: Nov 20 15:46
schestowitz “As realised by many readers, the writer of this article and I have a history that goes over a year back. The article has a fair deal of vengeance in it, but it’s disguised by having other parties (with whom I have been in disagreement for well over a year too) quoted extensively. Nov 20 15:47
schestowitz “The title of the piece is self explanatory with regards to motives. It uses the word “paranoia” and also “den”, comparing our site to some kind of a zoo. I consider the article derogatory, but I was approached by the author in advance, in order to make it more balanced. Nov 20 15:47
schestowitz “One of the main deficiencies of the article is that it contains almost no information about the very reason for our site’s existence and it hardly delves into the question whether the site’s motives, as opposed to just methods, are acceptable or not.” Nov 20 15:47
maxstirner nice Nov 20 15:47
schestowitz BillG and Nathan harvest nukes: http://techdirt.com/articles/2008… Nov 20 15:47
maxstirner well you get the publicity and people can make up their own mind Nov 20 15:47
schestowitz “With so many university technology transfer offices losing money, IV has been going around and signing deals with universities. Basically, IV gives those tech transfer offices some money upfront, allowing IV to effectively add each university’s patent pool to its own portfolio that it uses to go around demanding hundreds of millions of dollars from companies to “protect” them against any future lawsuits.” Nov 20 15:48
schestowitz maxstirner: every month we grow (pageview-wise), without exception, so it’s motivational enough. Some readers want to contribute pages, so it’s becoming bigger. Nov 20 15:48
schestowitz E.g. http://boycottnovell.com/odf-re… and http://boycottnovell.com/microsoft-c… Nov 20 15:49
*kapipi is now known as kapipi_afk_coffe Nov 20 15:50
Omar87 schestowitz: ROFL!! I loved where Jim Powers said “The point being is that Mr./Ms. eet will try to come back. Also, ((he/she/it)) will try to cross-post elsewhere. A sample of comments might be worthwhile as a “fingerprint” so others who read this blog might be able to identify eet’s work elsewhere.” :D Nov 20 15:50
schestowitz Yes, there’s plenty more. I did this in a hurt last year. “Gentoo user” is the same. Other people can’t quickly see what you already /know. Nov 20 15:52
*kapipi_afk_coffe is now known as kapipi Nov 20 15:53
schestowitz gtg bbl Nov 20 15:57
twitter IV.  They seed the office that will do business with them?  Bribe! Nov 20 15:57
twitter bbl Nov 20 15:57
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_doug “Windows Vista affected by 50 percent fewer vulnerabilities than other desktop operating systems” Nov 20 16:31
_doug http://www.cio.com/article/464727/Why_I_D… Nov 20 16:31
_doug “some IT professionals .. point to the OS’s security as a major plus as compared to Windows XP” Nov 20 16:31
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_doug “With Vista we can keep unwanted software and configurations out of our environment without needing third-party tools and with less effort than in previous versions of Windows.” Kinex Medical Center .. Nov 20 16:32
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_doug “An Austrian security vendor has found a vulnerability in Windows Vista that it says could possibly allow an attacker to run unauthorized code on a PC” Nov 20 16:35
_doug http://www.itworld.com/windows/58144/resea… Nov 20 16:35
_doug “Researchers .. have found two different ways to cause a buffer overflow that could corrupt the memory of the operating system’s kernel” Nov 20 16:35
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_doug Is Yahoo done with search? Nov 20 16:46
_doug http://valleywag.com/5093229/is-yahoo-done-with-search Nov 20 16:46
_doug In order to view comments on valleywag.com you need to enable JavaScript. Nov 20 16:47
_doug If you are using Firefox and NoScript addon, please mark valleywag.com as trusted. Nov 20 16:47
_doug I’ve spotted this recently, on tech sites mostly, they peobably realize that the techies can’t see the adverts .. Nov 20 16:48
jose i read it Nov 20 16:49
_doug Of course, most sites are unusable with javascript disabled, enabling it, allows adverts to get in, as well as any malscript .. Nov 20 16:49
jose we’ll see if the search group ends up at microsoft Nov 20 16:49
jose alright i hadn’t read it all… Nov 20 16:52
jose according to it, yahoo is still as serious as ever if not more about search Nov 20 16:52
jose they probably would like a deal where they leverage google or something like that Nov 20 16:53
jose there are too many crazy theories that are possible Nov 20 16:54
_doug It’s curious that MS is hiring on Yahoos’ search staff Nov 20 16:54
jose it didn’t say that did it? Nov 20 16:55
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jose biggest bang for buck Nov 20 16:55
jose it’s illegal depending on where and the circumstances Nov 20 16:55
jose borland settled with ms for having a significant part of their dev team targeted aggressively and ultimately wooed away Nov 20 16:56
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_doug “Sean Suchter just left for Microsoft .. Rumor has it that Yahoo already lost a search executive, Qi Lu, to Microsoft” Nov 20 17:01
_doug just a co-incidence ? Nov 20 17:02
_doug Suchter : I run Yahoo’s Web search engine .. Nov 20 17:03
trmanco http://www.theinquirer.net/gb/inquirer/news/2… Nov 20 17:05
_doug BoomTown Pick for Microsoft .. Nov 20 17:05
_doug http://kara.allthingsd.com/20081120/boomto… Nov 20 17:05
_doug would that be like Asimovs positronic brain ? Nov 20 17:06
_doug “BIGGISH BLUE .. to create computing systems to simulate and emulate the brain” Nov 20 17:06
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_doug what ever happened to neural nets? Nov 20 17:07
_doug http://www.nasa.gov/centers/dryde… Nov 20 17:08
trmanco I sounds weird Nov 20 17:09
trmanco a computer like the human brain… Nov 20 17:09
trmanco soon we will find our selves controlled by these brains:-P Nov 20 17:10
trmanco just like in Terminator Nov 20 17:10
_doug back on topic: MS fails to buy Yahoo-search, MS hires on Yahoo search people, co-incidence .. Nov 20 17:11
_doug bbl Nov 20 17:11
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PetoKraus hehe, gmail introduced themes :) Nov 20 17:13
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neighborlee PetoKraus, woo , my life is complete ;) Nov 20 17:17
PetoKraus :) Nov 20 17:17
PetoKraus it’s a good tweak tho Nov 20 17:17
neighborlee atm my legal worries are front and center so if that sounded unkind I apologise ;) Nov 20 17:17
neighborlee yup..I use and enjoy gmail very much Nov 20 17:17
PetoKraus neighborlee: what are they? Nov 20 17:17
neighborlee wellllllllll Nov 20 17:17
PetoKraus if you want to talk about them… Nov 20 17:17
neighborlee something I never thought I would have to endur Nov 20 17:18
neighborlee yup I can do that Nov 20 17:18
PetoKraus i’ve got my share as well Nov 20 17:18
neighborlee hehe Nov 20 17:18
neighborlee one moment, Nov 20 17:18
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_doug another day .. another Vista virus .. Nov 20 18:06
_doug what’s lin32.exe doign on this here machine ? Nov 20 18:08
trmanco Unsealed Microsoft Emails Show Early Vista Woes:http://www.dailytech.com/Unsealed+Microsoft+E… Nov 20 18:11
trmanco nice worm Nov 20 18:12
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neighborlee trmanco,yeah vista is hardly the crowning achievement of the almightyless M$ ;) Nov 20 18:17
_doug anyone know what it does ? Nov 20 18:17
trmanco _doug, look for it on Google Nov 20 18:17
trmanco http://www.google.com/url?sa=t&sourc… Nov 20 18:18
neighborlee even M$ engineers types whom has purhcased suposed computers reading ‘ready for vista’, had troubles and abandoned the devices LOL Nov 20 18:18
trmanco http://forum.kaspersky.com/index.php… Nov 20 18:19
_doug guess what, it don’t show up in normal file viewer :O Nov 20 18:19
trmanco us linux to delete that crap Nov 20 18:20
trmanco use* Nov 20 18:20
_doug I do, every time I go home, and check the USB devices, they show up extra files .. Nov 20 18:21
trmanco loool Nov 20 18:21
_doug autorun.inf nar.vbs E:\Restore\…\lin32.exe Nov 20 18:21
trmanco I also find a lot of crap when a plug in my friend USB disks… Nov 20 18:22
_doug is this a normal part of Vista ? Nov 20 18:22
trmanco what? E:? Nov 20 18:22
_doug The usb device is on E: Nov 20 18:23
_doug is created those files on a clean USB device .. Nov 20 18:24
MinceR looks very suspicious Nov 20 18:24
_doug the local techie said run a virus-scan, I said the virus would block the scan :o Nov 20 18:24
MinceR iirc autorun.inf is supposed to specify what windows will automatically run if that device is inserted Nov 20 18:24
_doug Then he tried to find it with windows search … Nov 20 18:24
MinceR (ingenious idea, straight from MICROS~1) Nov 20 18:25
_doug Yes and here is the script .. Nov 20 18:25
MinceR it’s kind of lame if it needs two executables though :> Nov 20 18:25
trmanco Windows is lame so … Nov 20 18:26
_doug o n   e r r o r   r e s u m e   n e x t Nov 20 18:28
_doug .. Nov 20 18:28
_doug a u t o r u n   =   ” [ a u t o r u n ] ” & v b c r l f & ” s h e l l e x e c u t e = w s c r i p t . e x e   n a r . v b s “ Nov 20 18:28
_doug s e t   t e x t = m f . o p e n a s t e x t s t r e a m ( 1 , – 2 ) Nov 20 18:28
_doug d o   w h i l e   n o t   t e x t . a t e n d o f s t r e a m Nov 20 18:28
_doug n a r s o u r c e = n a r s o u r c e   &   t e x t . r e a d l i n e Nov 20 18:28
_doug n a r s o u r c e = n a r s o u r c e   &   v b c r l f Nov 20 18:28
_doug l o o p Nov 20 18:28
_doug Nov 20 18:28
_doug      t o _ F i l e . w r i t e   n a r s o u r c e Nov 20 18:28
_doug …. Nov 20 18:28
_doug d o   w h i l e   ( i n _ W i n D i r   =   1 ) Nov 20 18:28
_doug f o r   e a c h   d i s k _ D r i v e   i n   f s o . d r i v e s Nov 20 18:28
_doug .. Nov 20 18:28
_doug s h e l l . r e g w r i t e  .. Nov 20 18:28
_doug w s c r i p t . s l e e p ( 6 0 0 0 0 ) Nov 20 18:28
_doug l o o p Nov 20 18:28
_doug .. Nov 20 18:28
_doug Does that look like a key-logger or what ? Nov 20 18:28
MinceR what’s with the spacing? Nov 20 18:28
_doug The way it cut and pasted .. Nov 20 18:28
trmanco yeah, letter spacing is screws up the reading Nov 20 18:29
_doug the dots are snipped bits … Nov 20 18:29
MinceR looks like it’s written to spread Nov 20 18:29
MinceR the first part writes the autorun.inf Nov 20 18:29
trmanco that sleep doesn’t look good Nov 20 18:29
trmanco the loop Nov 20 18:29
trmanco the last loop doesn’t look good Nov 20 18:30
_doug I guess it’s involved in writign itself to all drives .. Nov 20 18:30
MinceR yeah, it looks for drives to infect every minute, it seems Nov 20 18:30
_doug but what else does it do ? Nov 20 18:30
MinceR perhaps you could pastebin the file for us Nov 20 18:30
_doug what’s pastebin ? Nov 20 18:30
MinceR for example http://pastebin.com/ Nov 20 18:31
_doug wait .. Nov 20 18:31
MinceR http://pastebin.ca/  this one allows uploads Nov 20 18:32
_doug I can’t see it in Windows file view :) Nov 20 18:33
_doug is hidden :) Nov 20 18:33
MinceR set it to show hidden files Nov 20 18:34
_doug http://pastebin.com/m653ac30b Nov 20 18:34
MinceR oh Nov 20 18:34
MinceR it’s spaced out because it’s utf-16 Nov 20 18:35
MinceR or ucs-2 Nov 20 18:35
_doug and autorun.inf Nov 20 18:36
_doug http://pastebin.com/m1cc9102c Nov 20 18:36
_doug setting to show hidden files, and it’s still hidden, cause the virus hides itself, cause it’s running in memory … !!! Nov 20 18:37
trmanco it is hard to read Nov 20 18:37
_doug When I’m on Linux, I’ll copy the whole thing and uplaod it somewhere, for youall to peruse … Nov 20 18:38
trmanco it sure tries to spread itself Nov 20 18:39
_doug ok, enough seconds off my life wasted with Microsoft Windows Viruses© Nov 20 18:39
trmanco lol Nov 20 18:39
MinceR in vim, :%s/\v(.) /\1/g makes it somewhat more readable Nov 20 18:40
_doug $strings .. Nov 20 18:41
MinceR looks like the vbscript only tries to spread itself Nov 20 18:42
MinceR i suspect that lin32.exe is another malware Nov 20 18:42
MinceR (which probably uses a very similar mechanism to spread) Nov 20 18:42
_doug they are related, lin32.exe gets executed by autorun.inf, creates the three on any mounted device .. Nov 20 18:43
_doug seconds off my life: ten seconds to find the virus, twenty  minutes to convince the ‘technical’ people .. Nov 20 18:45
_doug I’m going home .. :o Nov 20 18:46
_doug Screw you guys, I’m going home!” ….. Nov 20 18:46
MinceR no u Nov 20 18:47
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_doug no u ?? Nov 20 18:48
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Guest53532 I really have to go, there is someone sitting next to be who is hygenically chalenged and eating like a pig .. Nov 20 18:49
Guest53532 gtg .. Nov 20 18:49
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trmanco http://www.bloomberg.com/apps/quot… Nov 20 18:57
trmanco Microsoft May Sell Debt in First-Ever Bond Offering (Update1): http://www.bloomberg.com/apps/news?pid=2060… Nov 20 18:58
trmanco “Microsoft, based in Redmond, Washington, rose 13 cents to $18.42 at 1:07 p.m. New York time in Nasdaq Stock Market trading. The shares had fallen 49 percent this year before today. “ Nov 20 18:59
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schestowitz “GNU/Linux and the open source community stand on their own merits. There is absolutely no good reason for a company to align itself with Redmond.  If Redmond wants to collaborate, they can open their code and drop the patent threats. If their product is as good as they claim, they won’t lose any customers.” Nov 20 19:30
schestowitz From http://www.tectonic.co.za/?p=36… Nov 20 19:30
twitter Ho ho, AAA language from http://www.bloomberg.com/apps/news?pid… just fanished. Nov 20 19:32
twitter vanished Nov 20 19:32
MinceR famished Nov 20 19:33
twitter vanished fanboy language is more like it.  They also nuked BS about strong foreign demand. Nov 20 19:33
twitter The basics of the fairy tale are still there, just muted to be less obvious and more objective looking. Nov 20 19:34
twitter The story also does not link back to the author’s earlier work denoting the purpose and lack of transparency of the dealings.  http://www.bloomberg.com/apps/news?… Nov 20 19:35
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neighborlee btw..did we ever find out if fedora dvd installer comes with mono , meaing mono is only gone from livecd ? Nov 20 20:02
schestowitz I think it’s gone. Nov 20 20:03
neighborlee and whichever that is..why fedora is scared only of moonlight on the restricted program page ? Nov 20 20:03
neighborlee schestowitz, hm Nov 20 20:03
schestowitz I have a long post about Mono and Fedora coming. Nov 20 20:03
neighborlee ahhhh Nov 20 20:03
schestowitz Guest post Nov 20 20:03
neighborlee oh man if so,,thats ROCKS my world ;) Nov 20 20:03
neighborlee ic Nov 20 20:03
schestowitz neighborlee: wait… Nov 20 20:03
neighborlee k Nov 20 20:03
schestowitz https://lists.ubuntu.com/archives/ubun… Nov 20 20:04
schestowitz Your buddy… Nov 20 20:04
neighborlee eeeeeeeeeek Nov 20 20:04
neighborlee not agggggggain Nov 20 20:04
neighborlee checking Nov 20 20:04
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neighborlee is this person really a he Nov 20 20:05
neighborlee few guys , go by JO,,last I checked anyway,,and on his one page I saw he does   use I think JO(Jospeh),,SHRUG Nov 20 20:05
neighborlee oh well Nov 20 20:05
schestowitz Microsoft Equipt just died too: http://blogs.zdnet.com/microsoft/?p=1729 Nov 20 20:05
schestowitz “Microsoft’s Equipt — which Microsoft launched in July of this year — is dead and Microsoft is having to go back and pull copies of Equipt from the channel (Circuit City in the U.S. and DSGI in the U.K.). Microsoft is offering customers a pro-rated refund for the service and allowing purchasers to keep Office Home & Student edition for free forever, Microsoft officials said.” Nov 20 20:06
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schestowitz Jo is directhex Nov 20 20:07
neighborlee yup I know Nov 20 20:07
neighborlee I just meant,,that spelling is slightly uncommon for a guy Nov 20 20:07
schestowitz Pushing .NET into the most popular GNU/Linux distro for self gain, IMHO Nov 20 20:07
neighborlee faik anyway..but no matter just a thought Nov 20 20:07
neighborlee schestowitz, thats been obvoius for quite sometime, but yeah ;) Nov 20 20:08
neighborlee schestowitz, he works at novel as I recall, and is a c# programmer ? Nov 20 20:08
neighborlee I know thelater is true, not sure about the former Nov 20 20:08
schestowitz What?!!?!? Nov 20 20:08
schestowitz Works at Novell? Nov 20 20:08
schestowitz Please find out. Nov 20 20:08
schestowitz If that’s true, it’s major Nov 20 20:08
neighborlee I could easily be wrong Nov 20 20:08
neighborlee somehow my mind seems to think I read it somewhere.. Nov 20 20:09
neighborlee but im positive about the c# part. Nov 20 20:09
schestowitz Nothing here… http://www.google.com/search?sourceid=mozcli… Nov 20 20:09
neighborlee that part I think Isaw at his ubunt about page Nov 20 20:09
neighborlee so sure,,of course he’s going to come out in vehement support of mono ;) Nov 20 20:09
neighborlee which is easy to do to uneduated groups of people ;) Nov 20 20:10
schestowitz I see nothing of relevance… http://www.google.com/search?source… Nov 20 20:10
neighborlee kinda like what the government does, hoping we dont’ see before things are passed into law <haha> Nov 20 20:11
twitter Here’s a round up of M$ incompetence and fraud.  Going into debt, http://slashdot.org/firehose.pl?op=view… Nov 20 20:11
twitter Not selling Windows 7, http://slashdot.org/firehose.pl?… Nov 20 20:11
neighborlee schestowitz, prob. nothing then, no idea atm where I thought I heard that so its prob. nothing Nov 20 20:11
twitter big investor complaints, http://slashdot.org/firehose.pl?op=vie… Nov 20 20:12
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neighborlee schestowitz, has anyone contacted debian asking why they even have this in the repo..all things considered Id say its a fair question ;) Nov 20 20:14
schestowitz Re: 7, this chap links to BN: http://rlieh.blogspot.com/2008/11/seven-… (The Seven is a lie) Nov 20 20:14
schestowitz neighborlee: yes, I spoke to a Debian dev Nov 20 20:15
schestowitz They are at least becoming more aware Nov 20 20:15
schestowitz I can’t publish the coversations Nov 20 20:15
twitter good. Nov 20 20:15
neighborlee schestowitz, at least that is something… Nov 20 20:16
schestowitz I chatted for like 3 hours today about the economy. Interesting stuff, but not for BN. Nov 20 20:17
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schestowitz Speaking of bad files via USB: US Army bans USB devices to contain worm < http://www.theregister.co.uk/2008/11/… > Nov 20 20:22
schestowitz Another dying market: Don’t Write Online Advertising’s Obituary Just Yet < http://www.webpronews.com/topnews/2008/11/20… > Nov 20 20:22
neighborlee schestowitz, I think we should also continue to ask gtk to be more selective in its support of current non-free open standards like c# , and instead java where at least n ow great work has been done in that direction and from a company that has never been convicted of , well ahem you know ;) Nov 20 20:25
schestowitz Yes, obviouslt. Nov 20 20:28
neighborlee :) Nov 20 20:28
schestowitz *ly. I’m going to do some more posts about it soon. Nov 20 20:28
neighborlee k Nov 20 20:28
schestowitz So much is happening these days. Nov 20 20:28
neighborlee sure is Nov 20 20:29
schestowitz Microsoft is drowning and it’s trying desparately to sink its #1 competitor with it. Nov 20 20:29
schestowitz Myhrvold troll, Mono poison, VMware hijack, Yahoo agitation… Nov 20 20:29
twitter M$ has always tried to sink competitors, it’s just easier to see now.  Had they tried to compete instead of sabotage, they would not be sinking. Nov 20 20:32
schestowitz Smithsonian reopens < http://www.cnn.com/2008/TECH/science/1… >. There’s MS/Gates cronyism inside there… Nov 20 20:32
schestowitz It was busy hypnotising. Nov 20 20:33
twitter M$FT 52 week low,  17.58 Nov 20 20:33
schestowitz Spending billions bribing journos, buying shills vis W-E et al and using Motley Fool to say it has infinite wealth Nov 20 20:33
schestowitz Bulls*it Nov 20 20:33
schestowitz Microsoft’s own finance guy blew the whistle on fraud. Nov 20 20:33
schestowitz That too belongs in Slashdot. Nov 20 20:33
schestowitz Microsoft paid him $4 million just to shut up about it. And now the company that claims tens of billions in revenue is going into debt Nov 20 20:34
schestowitz http://www.techflash.com/microsoft/Refl… “Where is the accountability for the lateness ofthe Windows Vista operating system and its poor design and performance?” Nov 20 20:35
schestowitz “Where are the tangible results of the billions spent on R&D?” Nov 20 20:35
twitter It’s the really ugly personal stuff that bothers me most.  The career ruining smears that underlined their attacks on competitors, http://boycottnovell.com/2008/03/17/man… Nov 20 20:36
twitter competitors and commentators Nov 20 20:36
twitter “Nothing would please me more than being able to hire ten programmers and deluge the hobby market with good software” Bill Gates, 1976 http://www.blinkenlights.com/classic… Nov 20 20:38
twitter deluge Nov 20 20:38
twitter douche Nov 20 20:39
schestowitz “Kick them out of the club” (something like that?) Nov 20 20:39
schestowitz Vanity comes as standard when one is born a tyrant with a silver spoon in his mouth. Nov 20 20:40
twitter “They are the ones who give hobbyists a bad name, and should be kicked out of any club meeting they show up at” Nov 20 20:41
schestowitz Mozilla dependent on Google < http://www.theinquirer.net/gb/inquirer/… > Well, Duh. Nov 20 20:41
schestowitz Gates.. what a charitable gentleman.. “[Nigerian kids?]  should be kicked out of any club meeting they show up at”” Nov 20 20:42
twitter Slashdot has a story about the IRS investigating Mozilla.  Meanwhile Gates fraud sails on buying independent newspapers and requiring grant recipients to “respect” IP and use windoze. Nov 20 20:42
schestowitz Well, at least he doing some business in Nigeria (oil), suffocating them to death.. Nov 20 20:43
schestowitz But to the camera he doesn’t pose under these insidious investments; he poses with a kid pretending to be saving lives. For background, see these videos (which not many people are aware of): http://boycottnovell.com/2008/01/02/the-m… Nov 20 20:44
schestowitz Citigroup gear… good for GNU/Linux.. “A lot of them had laptops, most of them had a PC, which all adds up to a huge amount of gear all of which is going to go on the second-hand market.’ http://www.theinquirer.net/gb/inquir… Nov 20 20:44
schestowitz Wait until China buys the big mega-corps (former) for peanuts with all their ‘precious’ IP. Abu-Dahbi will then inherit some other assets and become the NYC/London of the newer world. Nov 20 20:45
schestowitz Or Dubai rather. Nov 20 20:45
twitter Someone was just predicting China would be the next imaginary property champion.  It was plain to see that selling them all the real means of production was a bad idea. Nov 20 20:49
schestowitz They make their own standards. Nov 20 20:49
schestowitz That someone was Glyn Moody BTW Nov 20 20:49
schestowitz Maybe it’s their turn to ‘pull a $2/hr Nike’ on other countries. Nov 20 20:50
twitter It would serve us right for the greedy folly of IP. Nov 20 20:50
twitter I saw from the start that trade with China was going to cost western rights far more than it would benefit people in China. Nov 20 20:52
twitter Our money has made the oppressors stronger. Nov 20 20:52
twitter 52 week low,  17.50 Nov 20 20:53
schestowitz They stay in the black. Nov 20 20:53
twitter who? Nov 20 20:54
schestowitz With debt culture, one lives in a future fantasy, always in the red Nov 20 20:54
schestowitz A professor I spoke to today wants to synchronise our workouts because he can’t stop talking about this, either. Like many others, he’s furious. Nov 20 20:54
twitter I’m in the red now.  The last 10 years have wiped me out. Nov 20 20:55
schestowitz You catch up with a lot of people who quietly become “redundant” Nov 20 20:55
twitter those with jobs work till they die Nov 20 20:56
schestowitz My friend who used to play national rugby (he was even in England Sevens) is now just catching at a gym. Nov 20 20:56
schestowitz But it’s due to injuries. Nov 20 20:56
schestowitz Well, no dead person get to ‘take the money’ him/her, so.. Nov 20 20:56
schestowitz Wealth became a status thing… means for keeping score. Nov 20 20:56
schestowitz In some countries, people are honoured not for numbers (or cars or whatever), but there’s lot of unbrainwashing to be done (education ‘undone’) to get there. Nov 20 20:57
schestowitz It took some nerve of Microsoft to interfere with education, even in the UK Nov 20 20:58
schestowitz They brainwash the kids with IPR Nov 20 20:58
schestowitz http://boycottnovell.com/2008/0… Nov 20 20:58
schestowitz I saw Android in action today. Very nice! http://www.linuxdevices.com/news/NS3442… Nov 20 21:00
trmanco 7 year old Vulnerability is actually 15, but who cares?: http://securityblog.verizonbusiness.com/20… Nov 20 21:00
schestowitz That’s a goodie, thanks. Nov 20 21:02
trmanco :-P Nov 20 21:03
trmanco 15 years, how about that… Nov 20 21:04
schestowitz (Sigh): Another BBC Ad for Microsoft < http://opendotdotdot.blogspot.com/20… > Nov 20 21:07
trmanco another stupid non standard website: https://concurso.dgrhe.min-edu.pt/Defi… Nov 20 21:07
trmanco it even says that IE is used by 90% of the internet users Nov 20 21:08
twitter That 15 year old bug article is M$ apologist blither, ” It has certainly been demonstrated many times in penetration testing settings, but its actual use “in the wild” has never been documented (despite comments by Sir Dystic that suggest how easily this could be done via an email.)” Nov 20 21:08
schestowitz Another reason to put Apple in the trashcan: “And, oh look: since you’re using a closed system there is nothing you can do about it: payback time for that Faustian pact, people.” < http://opendotdotdot.blogspot.com/… > Nov 20 21:08
schestowitz http://blog.lizardwrangler.com/2008/11/19/sust… “One aspect of our global expansion is in our user base. By the end of 2007, nearly fifty percent of Firefox users chose a language other than English. In a fast forward, the first country in which Firefox usage appears to have crossed the 50% mark is Indonesia, surpassing 50% in July 2008. A set of European countries (Sovenia, Poland, and Finland) see Fir Nov 20 21:09
schestowitz efox usage above 40%.” Nov 20 21:09
trmanco efox? Nov 20 21:10
schestowitz 90% for IE, eh?  Is there no law against lying and blocking? slated.org does the right thing. Nov 20 21:10
schestowitz trmanco: the quote got chopped Nov 20 21:10
trmanco oh, I see now Nov 20 21:10
twitter That supposed Mac attack is one aimed at all playback devices and screens, HDMI. Nov 20 21:10
twitter All of them are supposed to refuse playback at the hardware level. Nov 20 21:11
trmanco schestowitz, I hope there was a very strict law against these non standard lying trolls Nov 20 21:11
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trmanco oh, did I mention they run on .aspx Nov 20 21:12
trmanco or .Net, or whatever MS website technology is called Nov 20 21:13
trmanco “Why doesn’t everyone just run Linux?” http://www.itwire.com/content/view/21825/1141/ Nov 20 21:16
trmanco Because you need to be a genius to understand its simplicity…. Nov 20 21:17
schestowitz http://screenshots.debian.net/ Nov 20 21:17
trmanco yeah, I noticed that some days ago Nov 20 21:18
schestowitz twitter: Apple should play ball with the MAFIAA Nov 20 21:18
schestowitz Neither should those who use Linux and try to gently introduce (or disguise) DRM Nov 20 21:18
trmanco http://news.softpedia.com/news/Windows-7-Will-Co… | What will they remove know? They kernel? or maybe Paint and notepad to save up some disk space Nov 20 21:27
schestowitz Promotional garbage Nov 20 21:35
schestowitz They had loads of media on Vista’s DVD. They try to sell that impression that “7″ = light (it’s not) Nov 20 21:35
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schestowitz My mom can’t tell the difference between disk space and RAM Nov 20 21:36
trmanco she doesn’t need to :-P Nov 20 21:39
trmanco as long as the system is working smoothly Nov 20 21:39
MinceR steve jobs is “against” drm again: http://yro.slashdot.org/article.pl?sid… Nov 20 21:43
schestowitz Haha. F* him. Nov 20 21:43
schestowitz PR stuff. One side of the mouth says “I’m not interested”, the other says “shag me” Nov 20 21:44
schestowitz It’s a boring and useless routine. Microsoft, unlike DRM, goes on the record promoting DRM though. Nov 20 21:44
schestowitz VIA claims to have been rehabilitated: http://www.phoronix.com/scan.php?pa… http://www.phoronix.com/scan.php?page=new… Nov 20 21:47
twitter I’m hanging on to my non DRM’d hardware. Nov 20 21:52
twitter mulls Via claims.  Sad. Nov 20 21:58
twitter Their spec release was so promising. Nov 20 21:59
twitter Free software 3D acceleration and low power requirement hardware are a very attractive combination. Nov 20 21:59
schestowitz They have gpl-violations in the house. Nov 20 22:00
schestowitz ‘My’ bug is being hunted :-) https://bugs.kde.org/show_bug.cgi?id=172266 Nov 20 22:01
twitter Do I have to wait for some Chinese company to make a decent video card? Nov 20 22:01
schestowitz MSBBC ship-jumping: MSNBC VP jumps to news startup < http://www.techflash.com/microsoft/MSNBC_VP_jump… > Nov 20 22:04
schestowitz Microsoft investors ‘hang on to dream’ < http://www.techflash.com/microsoft/Mic… > Nov 20 22:04
Omar87 schestowitz: What people don’t seem to understand is that SLES and RHEL are meant for corporate use. Nov 20 22:11
Omar87 schestowitz: Which means that Red Hat has to maintain their product in a way that satisfies the needs of their client company, and to do that, they have to limit the client company’s  ability to modify the code. Nov 20 22:13
schestowitz Not all is lost for Yahoo! http://www.reuters.com/article/te… ( Yahoo, T-Mobile announce mobile search deal ) Nov 20 22:17
schestowitz Microsoft has just opened the door for yahoo search deal though. They want to BUY some market share. Deal with Google — BAD! With Microsoft, according to the convicted monopolist, it’s OK Nov 20 22:18
schestowitz omer the trolls just pointed out trademarks Nov 20 22:19
schestowitz You can get RHEL for free: startcom, xos, Scientific, Unbreakale, centos, etc Nov 20 22:19
schestowitz You just need to remove logos, that’s all Nov 20 22:19
schestowitz See the last comment from Beranger. The trolls were caught with their pants down, again Nov 20 22:19
schestowitz “The long-scheduled announcement came hours after Microsoft Chairman Steve Ballmer told an audience that, while he has no interest in reviving any attempts to purchase Yahoo, he is interested in a partnership pegged to searches.” Nov 20 22:21
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Omar87 schestowitz: They’re so ignorant. :) Nov 20 22:29
PetoKraus oh god Nov 20 22:29
PetoKraus i am half deaf Nov 20 22:29
schestowitz Why? Nov 20 22:29
schestowitz Alrm goes off? Nov 20 22:29
PetoKraus nah, been to Uriah Heep gig Nov 20 22:30
PetoKraus bloody freaking brilliant Nov 20 22:30
PetoKraus though virgin really freaking annoys me :/ i should get installation charge discount; but they didn’t put it trough yet. Nov 20 22:31
schestowitz Blankenhorn defending the Vole… Errr.. response: http://www.linuxtoday.com/news_story.php3?l… Nov 20 22:32
schestowitz Wipe away the tears… Linus Torvalds’ old company acquired and gone < http://www.tgdaily.com/content/view/40255/118/ > They make it sound like he owned the company Nov 20 22:33
schestowitz http://www.linuxtoday.com/news_story.php3… “Once again, we see that Apple is no better than Microsoft, and is (in many ways) worse. We’re actually lucky that Microsoft became the criminal monopolist rather than Apple; things would have been much worse had Apple gained Microsoft’s stranglehold over the industry.” Nov 20 22:33
neighborlee http://ubuntuforums.org/showthread.php?t=328824 < interesting thread..I’ve thought the same thing for ages, though when I mentined it you would think I was asking for interdimensional space travel or something :) Nov 20 22:38
schestowitz Ubuntu: let’s make us the standard? Nov 20 22:44
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schestowitz *pong Slated Nov 20 22:51
neighborlee schestowitz, not sure what you mean, or was that just facetous regarding making ubuntu a standard ;) Nov 20 22:59
neighborlee if so..ICK yeah definitely not. Nov 20 22:59
neighborlee not unless mono is goneo ;) Nov 20 22:59
schestowitz Bad ideas Nov 20 22:59
neighborlee brb dog barking Nov 20 22:59
schestowitz Without individualism and choice, FOSS is dea Nov 20 22:59
schestowitz *d . It attracts devs because they conttol the code, own it, fork it, etc. Nov 20 23:00
schestowitz That’s like giving people crayons and saying “paint only trees” Nov 20 23:00
schestowitz “draw only vegetation” Nov 20 23:00
schestowitz http://www.theopensourcerer.com/2008/11/… Nov 20 23:02
twitter Dreaming is supposed to be free. Nov 20 23:03
twitter M$ dream …. greed Nov 20 23:03
twitter Cult:   -=”I love Microsoft. I believe in the company. It is my only individual stock still left in my portfolio,” said investor Karen Robbins of Seattle. “I’m still hanging on to Microsoft and the dream. =- Nov 20 23:04
schestowitz Stock portfolio=dream Nov 20 23:05
schestowitz If seller-liar was here, he’d have something good to say. Like “Sick people” Nov 20 23:05
twitter That woman is sick. Nov 20 23:05
MinceR it’s a dream alright Nov 20 23:05
MinceR a nightmare. Nov 20 23:05
schestowitz When I grew up I got love and toys, not stock portfolio Nov 20 23:06
schestowitz I’m not sure about the Gates (senior) mansion where young Gates yelled at his mother. Nov 20 23:06
schestowitz The childhood stories are priceless. I’d have to dig that up one day. He was a brat as a youngster too.. before the speeding arrest and all… long before… I’m sure SteveB was the same… probably abused by his $$ dad Nov 20 23:07
neighborlee well I did too.. tons of love and some toys Nov 20 23:07
neighborlee ive just known too many people who jumped from one distro to another never knowing quite where to stand, to feel warm and fuzzy about this supposed choice we all have ;) Nov 20 23:08
neighborlee if no choice in relation to software was that bad, I’d think people would avoid windows like the plague Nov 20 23:08
*neighborlee runs Nov 20 23:08
twitter These dreamy investors are a world away from those who have been speaking out lately,  http://slashdot.org/firehose.pl?o… Nov 20 23:08
twitter Either the meeting was well staged or Todd Bishop fell down on the job. Nov 20 23:09
neighborlee ie: do windows users really enjoy  free software so less than linux users ?..I cant buy that ..im stuck using windows for some things ‘atm’ but that dones’t mean I dont find foss superior for obvious reasons ;) Nov 20 23:09
twitter hmmmm, the other investor was also interviewed by Bishop. Nov 20 23:10
twitter This guy was more straight forward and bailed instead of bitching, http://slashdot.org/~twitter/journal/213953 Nov 20 23:12
schestowitz Yes Nov 20 23:13
schestowitz Bishop relies on MSFT Nov 20 23:13
schestowitz People like him and Wilcox must be terrified of a world’d w/e MS. It renders their expertise moot and redundant. Nov 20 23:13
PetoKraus http://www.dangermouse.net/esoteri… Nov 20 23:18
MinceR lol Nov 20 23:23
MinceR nice Nov 20 23:23
twitter “So, Mr. Ballmer, what year do you predict the best is yet to come?”  2010, the year of Windows.  Ha ha. Nov 20 23:24
MinceR so, windows will finally be ready for the desktop in 2010? :> Nov 20 23:24
schestowitz Dangermouse? Nov 20 23:25
schestowitz he was one of the early ones to lash at the MAFIAA Nov 20 23:25
schestowitz I downloaded some of his songs (legally) Nov 20 23:25
schestowitz 2010, eh? Nov 20 23:25
schestowitz How much in debt would Microsoft be then? How deep in ‘IP’ suits? Nov 20 23:26
twitter Vista was not ready for the desktop.  They promise Vista 7 won’t be as bad. Nov 20 23:26
MinceR wow, he’s the guy who does Darths & Droids Nov 20 23:26
twitter Another reporter covers the same event http://seattlepi.nwsource.com/busi… Nov 20 23:28
twitter Portrait of a deluded user and share holder.  http://blog.seattlepi.nwsourc… Nov 20 23:30
neighborlee twitter, well to be fair..they dont say ‘not to use’ vista right now,,just tha 7 will be supposedly ‘enhanced/better’, but they said that about all their OS’s Nov 20 23:30
neighborlee unless I have missed news which is entirely possible ;) Nov 20 23:31
schestowitz Vapourware does not age Nov 20 23:33
twitter to really be fair, you have to look at how other people have described Vista, http://slashdot.org/~twitter/journal/215115 and http://slashdot.org/~twit… are good places to start. Nov 20 23:33
schestowitz They should be sued for it, just like they were before. Nov 20 23:33
neighborlee but yeah I totally agree, all those ‘vista capable’ logos were immoral as hell Nov 20 23:40
neighborlee bad M$ Nov 20 23:40
neighborlee their own employees were bitten even on that one ;) Nov 20 23:40
neighborlee and as I recall, their genera manager said , we should clean this mess up now, instead of spending major bucks and major PR hurdles later… Nov 20 23:41
schestowitz neighborlee: http://boycottnovell.com/2008/11/20/wind… Nov 20 23:41
twitter Ahha, the shareholder’s dream seems to be her career as a children’s book writer!  She has confused Windows with her career goals. Nov 20 23:47
schestowitz She should just set up a site Nov 20 23:47
schestowitz Books are passe Nov 20 23:47
twitter It’s so slimy for Bishop to make it look like her dream was some kind of M$ think.  Here’s what she said, “Twenty years ago, I started my dream to be a children’s writer.  Bill Gates and Microsoft totally changed my career. I just wanted to thank you.  I love Microsoft. I believe in the company. It is my only individual stock still left in my portfolio. I’m still hanging on to Microsoft and the dream.  I remember I sat in this ver Nov 20 23:48
schestowitz They rely on the assumption that you need producers of phyisical goods to pass knowledge Nov 20 23:48
twitter Yes, that’s another confusion she has. Nov 20 23:48
schestowitz RMS no longer seems to publish in paper because GNU/FSF/Webzines get his word out to a BROADER audience… not just people hunting down his books. Nov 20 23:48
schestowitz Why did you quote that. Nov 20 23:49
schestowitz I have to grab a bucket now. Nov 20 23:49
schestowitz “I just wanted to thank you.  I love Microsoft.” Nov 20 23:49
twitter She may also think that she is entitled to rewards the physical constraints of paper publishing gave her but denied others. Nov 20 23:49
schestowitz Said who? Yang? Noorda? Nov 20 23:49
twitter I quoted it to show that her dream was actually …. writing books. Nov 20 23:49
schestowitz Oh, I see Nov 20 23:50
schestowitz Sloppy reporting, but Todd is usually OK Nov 20 23:50
twitter Karen Robins, a children’s book author, said it. Nov 20 23:50
schestowitz PJ recommends his too Nov 20 23:50
MinceR gn Nov 20 23:50
schestowitz He’s also not tied to $$ from some companies, but his interests are another matter. gn, MinceR Nov 20 23:50
twitter The editor may have been at fault.  Some kind of M$ cult wishful thinking.  The truth is not much better but it shows many fundamental confusions. Nov 20 23:51
twitter The statement is a good example of something else too.  The core sin of non free software that RMS warns about is that the user is so grateful for what the software does that they will do as the programmer says. Nov 20 23:55
neighborlee hm Nov 20 23:59
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  1. Jo Shields said,

    November 21, 2008 at 8:27 am


    I’d love to hear how you reached your conclusions about my motivations – and employment – you guys.

    No really, it fascinates me where this kind of thing is sourced from.

    If people like neighborlee can make up random things, and you’ll believe it implicitly… coupled with your admission elsewhere that you’re far too busy to actually fact-check anything… well, it goes a long way towards explaining this site’s content

    Have you considered, for one second, actually *ASKING* those you make accusations about? Or, as happened with Cj, would you rather kick them out of your immediate vicinity to help you project your own made-up reality?

  2. Roy Schestowitz said,

    November 21, 2008 at 9:25 am


    But it’s true that you and CJ have vested interests in Mono.

  3. AlexH said,

    November 21, 2008 at 9:39 am


    @Roy: you say any member of the Mono community has a vested interest. Thus, you attempt to neatly split people into “anti-mono” and “vested interests”, which is an obvious false dichotomy.

    For now, the free software community disagrees with you, despite your agitating against Mono in Fedora et al.

  4. Roy Schestowitz said,

    November 21, 2008 at 9:43 am


    This is not true. A lot of people agree with us, including a legal expertise that’s in Groklaw.

  5. AlexH said,

    November 21, 2008 at 9:54 am


    I didn’t say people didn’t agree with you. What I’m against is you automatically labelling people in the Mono community.

    There are plenty of people who’ve seen exactly the same stuff you have, and have come to a completely different conclusion about Mono. No distro thinks Mono is a legal threat, so Groklaw’s “legal expertise” is all well and good, but they’re not the ones making the decisions.

  6. Roy Schestowitz said,

    November 21, 2008 at 10:04 am


    I don’t label people anything unless they consistently make considerable attempts to put Mono _by default_ in GNU/Linux distributions that many people (and companies) use. Most people are indifferent or unaware of this debate.

  7. Jo Shields said,

    November 21, 2008 at 10:29 am


    What is my “vested interest”, oh all-knowing Roy?

  8. Roy Schestowitz said,

    November 21, 2008 at 10:32 am


    Mostly financial gain from maximal inclusion of Mono.

    Mostly personal gain from maximal inclusion of Mono.

    Note: comment corrected at Jo’s request.

  9. Jo Shields said,

    November 21, 2008 at 10:49 am


    Please explain how I gain financially from inclusion of Mono in Ubuntu

  10. Roy Schestowitz said,

    November 21, 2008 at 11:24 am


    I believe you develop in Mono. You want people’s PCs to have the runtime environment.

  11. Roy Schestowitz said,

    November 21, 2008 at 11:26 am



    <cc:Work rdf:about=”http://www.mono-project.com/Mono_Documentation_Improvement_Project“>
    <dc:title>Mono Documentation Improvement Project</dc:title>
    <dc:publisher rdf:resource=”http://www.mono-project.com/Mono:About“/>
    <dc:creator>Jo Shields</dc:creator>
    <dc:contributor>Valentin Sawadski</dc:contributor>
    <dc:contributor>Eric Butler</dc:contributor>
    <dc:rights rdf:resource=”http://www.gnu.org/copyleft/fdl.html“/>
    <cc:license rdf:resource=”http://www.gnu.org/copyleft/fdl.html“/>
    <cc:License rdf:about=”http://www.gnu.org/copyleft/fdl.html“>
    <cc:permits rdf:resource=”http://web.resource.org/cc/DerivativeWorks“/>
    <cc:permits rdf:resource=”http://web.resource.org/cc/Reproduction“/>
    <cc:permits rdf:resource=”http://web.resource.org/cc/Distribution“/>
    <cc:requires rdf:resource=”http://web.resource.org/cc/Notice“/>
    <cc:requires rdf:resource=”http://web.resource.org/cc/ShareAlike“/>
    <cc:requires rdf:resource=”http://web.resource.org/cc/SourceCode“/>
  12. AlexH said,

    November 21, 2008 at 11:33 am


    Looks like financial benefits to me…. ^_^

  13. Jo Shields said,

    November 21, 2008 at 11:34 am


    Explain, SPECIFICALLY, how I gain financially from end-user desktop PCs having Mono installed on them. And explain how fixing a broken Wiki page is proof of this.

    We have a word in this country for written baseless accusations. It’s called libel.

    Specifically BACK YOUR CLAIM.

    How do I gain financially from my work on Mono in Ubuntu?

  14. Roy Schestowitz said,

    November 21, 2008 at 11:35 am


    Jo is obviously involved in promoting Mono; not only in their site but also in Debian, Ubuntu, and who know where else.

  15. Roy Schestowitz said,

    November 21, 2008 at 11:46 am


    @Jo Shields:

    That’s benefit… like a farmer benefits from a rainy season, lawyers benefits from too many patents, and arms companies benefit from war.

    I see you also here:


    In Ubuntu forums you speak of development with Mono, Without Mono, your opportunities seem narrower and that’s just the point I was trying to make. You have vested interests. Opportunities can translate into gain that’s sometimes financial (e.g. job offer from Novell).

  16. Jo Shields said,

    November 21, 2008 at 11:51 am


    So your claim that I gain financially from work on Mono in Ubuntu is because you think I’m looking for employment with Novell.

    Is that it?

    My “vested interest” is an effort to get employed by your supposed Evil Empire?

  17. Dan O'Brian said,

    November 21, 2008 at 11:57 am


    Let’s just assume, for a minute, that Jo Shields works for a company that writes .NET applications (I have no idea if he does or not) and they want to target Linux users.

    If those Linux users buy his software, what is stopping Jo from embedding Mono in his product(s)? He doesn’t need to care if the user’s machine has Mono or not.

    Besides which, if the users want to run his software, if they need to install Mono to do so, they will. If they are willing to buy his products, then it stands to reason that they are not against Mono (if they were against Mono, they wouldn’t be interested in purchasing his products, right?).

    So he gains no financial benefits by packaging Mono for Ubuntu.

  18. AlexH said,

    November 21, 2008 at 12:03 pm


    @Dan: it’s not worth trying to play Roy’s game; hypotheticals quickly become “fact”.

    This is exactly what I said before. Roy labels anyone in a free software community he doesn’t like as being “biased”, but the only “vested interest” they have is that they use / develop the software.

    The argument goes like this: “Emacs is evil!” “No, it’s not.” “Yes it is, and you’re biased for saying it’s not”. “I’m not biased.” “Yes you are, you promote it. Stop defending the company that writes it.”. etc. Substitute in some other app., wash, rinse, repeat.

    Pathetic, anti-free software FUD.

  19. Josh Bell said,

    November 21, 2008 at 12:12 pm


    @ Roy: Nice doublespeak. First you accuse Jo of gaining financially without fact, then you back down from that statement by saying that “opportunities can translate into gain that’s sometimes financial”. You have no facts about Jo, you don’t know what he does or where he works. Again you see things black and white. You are either with me or against me, there is no other ground with you.

  20. Cor said,

    November 21, 2008 at 12:18 pm


    It’s appaling how I see wild claims made against a man who develops free software. You, Mr Schestowitz, write that Jo Shields makes money from Mono – how?!?!? Where?!?!?

    You make it sound like he is being paid a dollar for every Mono-installation on a desktop PC, and you certainly don’t create that impression by accident.

    You are bad-mouthing people that you don’t like on purpose, and this casts a shadow on your own character. For me, it’s you who comes out looking bad from this whole argument.

  21. Dan O'Brian said,

    November 21, 2008 at 12:19 pm


    Cor: he’s been doing that for years.

  22. Roy Schestowitz said,

    November 21, 2008 at 12:40 pm


    Dan, were you talking on Jo’s behalf or yourself?

    You both appear to be coding in .NET (I don’t know about Jo though), so you want Mono in GNU/Linux regardless of the consequences to many.

    It sure seems like the regular hecklers are very busy today. What are you so afraid of?

  23. Cor said,

    November 21, 2008 at 12:48 pm


    …this is just an unbelievably stupid thing to say. Do you have no shame?

  24. AlexH said,

    November 21, 2008 at 12:58 pm


    “regular hecklers” – nice way to attempt to write off people’s arguments. We don’t need any facts, or logic – they disagree, therefore they’re hecklers and wrong.

    BN-newspeak at its best.

  25. Roy Schestowitz said,

    November 21, 2008 at 1:01 pm


    You make your point and I respect that. It’s possible that you still have vested interests (some of you seem to post not far from SUSE). That’s fair enough.

  26. Dan O'Brian said,

    November 21, 2008 at 1:17 pm


    I “appear to be coding in .NET”??? Since when? I’m not a developer and nothing my company sells is based on Mono or .NET (nor is anything internally, afaik).

    It seems to me that whenever you are proven to be a liar, you lash out with yet another lie in a last-ditch effort to make the other party seem dishonest, when the only one being dishonest is you.

  27. Dan O'Brian said,

    November 21, 2008 at 1:19 pm


    So now by your own admission, you are unsure if Jo codes in .NET, and we know for a fact that I do not. Yet you claim that we code in .NET in an effort to prove that we have something to gain from Mono being shipped on Linux distros?

    I fail to follow your logic.

  28. Roy Schestowitz said,

    November 21, 2008 at 1:29 pm


    http://www.mono-project.com/Other_Downloads links to Jo’s site and he spoke about Mono development before. Whether he does this as a daytime job (Mono/.NET) we do not know. An answer would help. As for you, Dan, you’ve always dodged full disclosure, IIRC.

  29. Roy Schestowitz said,

    November 21, 2008 at 1:30 pm


    From Jo’s site:


    “The primary purpose of badgerports is to provide recent versions of the Mono framework, and associated packages such as F-Spot, Banshee, and Monodevelop. Suggestions for other packages to include are welcome, but don’t be offended if I decline for whatever reason.”


    “badgerports is maintained by Jo Shields, and hosted by Moonfire Games. Package compilation is provided by the Launchpad PPA system.”

  30. twitter said,

    November 21, 2008 at 1:45 pm


    Hmmm, before this I was unaware of Jo Shield’s existence. I’d like to think promoters of Mono have financial motivation. Besides the port of legacy applications, I’m not sure why anyone would want to use M$’s inferior and patent encumbered technology. Jo, can you explain your tireless promotion in terms normal people can understand?

  31. jo Shields said,

    November 21, 2008 at 1:55 pm


    @twitter: On neutral territory, I might be inclined to do so. This is a million miles from that.

    @Roy: Have you ever considered that the reason so many people claim that your site is a haven for lies, half-truths, and absence of fact is that you make random shit up with no evidence or basis, purposefully misquote and distort in an effort to make people believe your point of view, and will make up *anything* if you think it helps your cause? Has it ever even crossed your mind that your credibility might be linked to your continual and relentless lies and attacks against the free software community?

  32. Roy Schestowitz said,

    November 21, 2008 at 1:57 pm



    You’re doing everything but answer my question.

  33. jo Shields said,

    November 21, 2008 at 2:11 pm


    Google “burden of proof”. I think even with your proven-non-existent research skills, you could just about manage that.

    YOU started making up things about ME. That’s the way round it went. I am under no obligations to give your “oh, well, you tell me YOUR side” questions anything more than contempt.

    YOU claim to know ME. You’ve said more than once that you know what I do. Here is your proclamation: “They need Mono.. they do it for a living and the poison the most-used distro”. Prove it. You have never made any attempt to contact me yet featured me twice on your front page as an enemy of freedom. Only because I know what a liar one of your “completely impartial readers” is have I even found those comments.

    If you had even the *SLIGHTEST* interest in the truth, you would make an effort to find it. Asking me to tell you things on YOUR blog in YOUR coments after YOU make up lies about me is not how this stuff works.

    Sort it out. You are harming your message more than you know.

  34. twitter said,

    November 21, 2008 at 2:15 pm


    No problem, Jo, I’ll follow a link to some place you consider neutral, soothing or otherwise more appropriate for your explanation. Your insults for Roy do more to discredit you than Roy.

  35. jo Shields said,

    November 21, 2008 at 2:25 pm


    Roy lies about me. That makes him a liar. I’m sorry reality offends you.

  36. Roy Schestowitz said,

    November 21, 2008 at 2:30 pm


    I’ve already shown your role in Mono. You have not addressed my question. Are you not benefiting from Mono at all? Are you just an arbitrary Ubuntu user?

  37. jo Shields said,

    November 21, 2008 at 2:42 pm


    My job has no reliance or dependence upon Mono. I made a decision several years into the job to spend time developing an in-house tool on Mono, on a purely technical basis, following the complete failure of a Perl-based attempt (and no interest in hiring more staff to work with a C implementation). Precisely the reason Ximian started funding Mono development in the first place – to offer a technically capable, cross-platform development environment to *NIX developers. I could have used any language or framework, and picked Mono based on technical superiority and fast turnaround on development time.

    My employers do not distribute this tool (which is extremely useful, though not essential, to performing my day-to-day roles) to any third parties, and do not make any direct or indirect benefit from availability of Mono on Ubuntu (other than it being my personal choice of distribution, and therefore the distribution I most want to be doing development work on). My links with Ubuntu are absolutely, 101% based on my desire to help promote and improve quality Free Software in my distribution of choice for the last 3-4 years.

    Now, go on, twist that into some admission of guilt.

  38. Chris said,

    November 21, 2008 at 2:43 pm


    Twitter, I seriously doubt that anyone will be able to have a serious discussion with you about anything remotely involving Microsoft.

    For anyone who doesn´t understand what I mean, I suggest you read this: http://slashdot.org/~SockDisclosure/journal/214377

    Yes, that´s the same guy. Isn´t he a lovely fellow?

  39. stevetheFLY said,

    November 21, 2008 at 2:46 pm



    And BTW

    Roy said: “You’re doing everything but answer my question.”

    Hehe, I think Roy gives an accurate description of his own behavior here…

    Note: comment has been flagged for arriving from an incarnation of a known (eet), pseudonymous, forever-nymshifting, abusive Internet troll that posts from open proxies and relays around the world.

  40. Roy Schestowitz said,

    November 21, 2008 at 2:53 pm


    Jo, it’s no “guilt”, it’s disclosure, and it very well supports what I’ve been saying all alone.

  41. jo Shields said,

    November 21, 2008 at 2:56 pm


    “Jo, it’s no “guilt”, it’s disclosure, and it very well supports what I’ve been saying all alone. ”

    Which is?

    Tell me how, specifically, what I’ve typed (which is not exactly a well-kept secret, and would have been said months ago HAD YOU ACTUALLY ASKED ME DIRECTLY) prove your various “He’s trying to get a job at Novell” or “He’s a C# developer” statements?

  42. jo Shields said,

    November 21, 2008 at 2:57 pm


    Or that I’m “poisoning the most popular”, that one too.

    Show me the link.

    I know how much of your “proof” is based on inferring links that aren’t there. I’m calling you out on it. Show, in a plain & simple to understand way, why you feel vindicated.

  43. Roy Schestowitz said,

    November 21, 2008 at 3:01 pm


    Tell me how, specifically, what I’ve typed (which is not exactly a well-kept secret, and would have been said months ago HAD YOU ACTUALLY ASKED ME DIRECTLY) prove your various “He’s trying to get a job at Novell” or “He’s a C# developer” statements?

    You develop in C#. Correct?

    I did not write “He’s trying to get a job at Novell”. Don’t mislead the readers. I wrote: “Opportunities can translate into gain that’s sometimes financial (e.g. job offer from Novell).”

  44. Roy Schestowitz said,

    November 21, 2008 at 3:05 pm


    Or that I’m “poisoning the most popular”, that one too.

    Show me the link.

    I know how much of your “proof” is based on inferring links that aren’t there. I’m calling you out on it. Show, in a plain & simple to understand way, why you feel vindicated.

    Here if your profile in Ubuntu Forums (with links to posts):


    People can see that you extol the virtues of Mono and antagonise people who complain about Mono for perfectly valid reasons. It seems to be one of your main activities in the forums.

    There is more than just that and people can judge for themselves.

  45. jo Shields said,

    November 21, 2008 at 3:08 pm


    If I opt to develop, which is not my job and not something I do for a hobby frequently these days, then I opt to use C#

    Trying to paint me as being paid for being a C# developer won’t get you anywhere, no matter how much you try to assert reality

    As for your second paragraph, what kind of semantics bullshit is that? “Oh, I never said you were trying to get a job at Novell, I said you were trying to get financial gain like a job at Novell, TOTALLY different”, what a fucking joke.

    I’m not taking fucking lessons on this from someone proud to proclaim experience with 8 different Microsoft operating systems in an effort to get a job


  46. Roy Schestowitz said,

    November 21, 2008 at 3:12 pm


    The problem is a lot more trivial. I prefer potaeto [sic], you prefer pottatto, but the problem with pottatto is that it’s legally dangerous (poisonous) to the codebase we both share and you plant it in my garden (or defend those who do).

  47. jo Shields said,

    November 21, 2008 at 3:16 pm


    And potatoes are associated to libel… how?

  48. AlexH said,

    November 21, 2008 at 3:18 pm


    @Roy: you said flat-out there was financial gain for Jo from promoting Mono.

    It’s not hard to withdraw that remark unless you have something to substantiate it.

  49. Roy Schestowitz said,

    November 21, 2008 at 3:18 pm


    No, I was talking about programming languages. You didn’t answer my question about C# BTW.

  50. jo Shields said,

    November 21, 2008 at 3:21 pm


    Yes, I did. Perhaps you didn’t understand it?

  51. Roy Schestowitz said,

    November 21, 2008 at 3:22 pm


    @Alex: Yes, I agree. Replace “financial” with “personal” (where personal comes in many forms, potentially financial but not in a direct way). That’s life.

    I make no financial gain from this site, but one could argue that I benefit from it at a personal capacity. The same can be said about Jo and Mono.

  52. Roy Schestowitz said,

    November 21, 2008 at 3:24 pm


    @Jo, my bad. I read it too quickly and sloppily. Please refrain from using vulgar words because it leads me to skimping like I do in USENET. Insults are not pleasant to read.

  53. AlexH said,

    November 21, 2008 at 3:24 pm


    @Roy: except you haven’t shown any benefit.

    All you’ve done is smear Jo because you don’t have a better argument. “You’re biased because you get some benefit that I don’t know about”.

  54. Josh Bell said,

    November 21, 2008 at 3:24 pm



    Again you doublespeak. You are the one who said Jo was in it for financial gain, you are the one who put up he was looking to get a job @ Novell, and you are the one who spreads lies about people who disagree with you.

    You should either withdraw the remark and apologize, or state your evidence. Looking at his profile shows nothing

  55. jo Shields said,

    November 21, 2008 at 3:25 pm


    Ah, so your idea of stepping back from libelous statements is on comment number 51 of your web page?

    What will tomorrow’s IRC logs yield – “I hear he eats babies” on IRC, followed by “I meant tacos” in comment 67?

  56. Roy Schestowitz said,

    November 21, 2008 at 3:27 pm


    I’ll add a correction to my comment.

  57. jo Shields said,

    November 21, 2008 at 3:28 pm


    “Insults are not pleasant to read. ”

    No, they aren’t. I’ve made your frontpage twice – once as stupid, once as… I have no idea what people were supposed to be inferring in the second one. That I’m an evil graphics API?

  58. Roy Schestowitz said,

    November 21, 2008 at 3:31 pm


    DirectX is evil indeed. The reasons for its inception too were malevolent.

  59. jo Shields said,

    November 21, 2008 at 3:47 pm


    So, reading this again, and your altered proclamations about my motives… am I meant to apologize for contributing towards a free software project I use? You know that’s how Free Software works, right?

    Oh, and @twitter, “before this I was unaware of Jo Shield’s existence” – you’ve commented on articles on my homepage, so your reality appears to be in error

  60. Roy Schestowitz said,

    November 21, 2008 at 3:52 pm



    It’s a difficult situation. There’s always some witch like Phelps trying to feed you a rotten apple. That’s why we need to debate these things and work out solutions.

    How much do you know about Microsoft’s armament around patent trolls?

  61. Chris said,

    November 21, 2008 at 4:28 pm


    [quote]Oh, and @twitter, “before this I was unaware of Jo Shield’s existence” – you’ve commented on articles on my homepage, so your reality appears to be in error [/quote]

    Do you really expect poor twitter to remember what he posted where under what nym? I guess it is understandable that this would overstrain the poor poor twitter.

    For anyone who doesn´t understand what I mean, I suggest you read this: http://slashdot.org/~SockDisclosure/journal/214377

    Yes, that´s the same guy. Isn´t he a lovely fellow?

  62. jo Shields said,

    November 21, 2008 at 4:44 pm


    Nothing you don’t know – or at least, I haven’t read anything significantly different from you, though I’ve tended to draw my own conclusions which undoubtedly differ.

    As for debate, debate is good – but not when resorting to demagogy.

    What kind of “solution” do you propose, and to what specific “problem”?

  63. Roy Schestowitz said,

    November 21, 2008 at 4:50 pm


    I’m trying to get Novell and Microsoft to speak out about their coverage of Mono (under the patent agreement). Myself and other mailed them and received no response.

    Prior to the 2006 deal I advocated Mono.

  64. Dan O'Brian said,

    November 21, 2008 at 4:52 pm


    I think he thinks that the persecution of all Novell and Mono developers would make the world a better place. Basically, Roy wants to be world dictator – anyone who disagrees with him should be hung or burned at the stake after being smeared by Roy’s lies.

    If your view doesn’t fit with Roy’s warped understanding of his black & white world (where black and white changes daily to suit his agenda), then you are evil and should be punished.

  65. jo Shields said,

    November 21, 2008 at 4:55 pm


    Why should they talk to you, when you post ten times a day about how willfully evil each and every person with any tangential relationship to either company is?

    Why shouldn’t they disregard you as a kook of the Westboro Baptist Church variety?

  66. Dan O'Brian said,

    November 21, 2008 at 4:56 pm


    Roy: if you advocated Mono prior to 2006, then you must have agreed there is a good reason to have it and that it is in fact Free Software.

    The only thing that has changed since 2006 wrt Mono & patents is that Novell customers get to feel safer from patent attacks from Microsoft that were never likely to happen anyway.

    Non-Novell users using Mono are no less safe now than they were in 2006. So if you felt it was safe enough to advocate back in 2006, then you have no reason to feel it is any less safe now.

  67. Roy Schestowitz said,

    November 21, 2008 at 5:08 pm


    Microsoft soon made it clear that it wanted to play with intellectual monopolies, as opposed to technical merits.

  68. Dan O'Brian said,

    November 21, 2008 at 5:11 pm


    Wait, they didn’t make that clear until *after* 2006?

    Were you living under a rock before then?

  69. Roy Schestowitz said,

    November 21, 2008 at 5:16 pm


    Microsoft was rattling no saber and intellectual monopolies were off the table.

  70. jo Shields said,

    November 21, 2008 at 5:17 pm


    No, to be fair, I see Roy’s point in this instance. I reject taking it to absolute extremes as has been done, but there is merit to the idea that acknowledging “this product is protected from patent litigation” can be construed as saying “other products have increased risk of patent litigation”

    I think the wrong party tends to be focused on in that deal, though

  71. Roy Schestowitz said,

    November 21, 2008 at 5:26 pm


    Do you have access to people who can shed light on this and provide answers? Uncertainty only serves them better.

  72. jo Shields said,

    November 21, 2008 at 5:29 pm


    No, of course not. I only know one guy at MS, via a PC hardware forum, and he has no direct links with anyone in licensing or .NET

  73. Roy Schestowitz said,

    November 21, 2008 at 5:31 pm


    Let’s gather evidence before we cause irreversible damage (no, it’s not just Mono).

    From what I’m told privately, Red Hat seems to be revisiting the Mono issue. Fedora already flag Moonlight as “forbidden” item, but it probably goes further.

  74. Dan O'Brian said,

    November 21, 2008 at 5:34 pm


    Let’s gather evidence before we cause irreversible damage (no, it’s not just Mono).

    Why, what a novel concept!

    Why didn’t you do this from day 1 instead of FUDing people, projects and companies without first doing so?

  75. Roy Schestowitz said,

    November 21, 2008 at 5:51 pm


    You obviously have not read this site for 2 years.

  76. Dan O'Brian said,

    November 21, 2008 at 6:00 pm


    If you had been doing research for the last 2 years, why would you have to /start/ doing research now? :-)

    Fact is you /haven’t/ been doing any research, you’ve been basing your opinions on comments by anonymous posters on web forums and speculation by journalists who have very little understanding of the actual facts themselves.

    You then misconstrue even what the journalists state and twist words to suit your agenda of badmouthing Mono and Moonlight and the developers of such projects and anyone who uses said products.

  77. Roy Schestowitz said,

    November 21, 2008 at 6:02 pm


    What about the SFLC? Won’t you value their legal analysis?

  78. Dan O'Brian said,

    November 21, 2008 at 6:17 pm


    I don’t doubt there is legal risk to Mono and Moonlight.

    Just like there is legal risk to nearly every free (and proprietary) software project out there.

    That doesn’t stop me from using Free Software just like it doesn’t stop you or many many other users from using Linux and other free software products.

    Nor does it stop people from using any software product.

    I also do not badmouth projects nor developers of projects that I decide not to use nor try to smear them nor paint them as devils.

    My point is that just because some legal group out there said that there is risk in using Mono doesn’t mean I’m going to get sued for using it, nor does it mean I have to attack the company or developers producing the product, nor do I have to badmouth the product itself.

    If I think it likely I’ll get sued for using a piece of software, I may decide not to use it – but I won’t badmouth anyone over it.

    Of course, I haven’t found a single piece of software yet that I’ve been afraid to use out of fear of patent attacks. It’s just a little too far-fetched.

    I do, however, avoid pirating music and videos because:
    1. stealing is wrong – as much as I dislike the MPAA and record companies, it’s only fair that the actors, artists, etc get paid.
    2. the likelyhood of getting sued seems high enough not to risk it – I’m always reading about some poor college student getting sued for pirating music.

    In the case of software… I don’t recall ever reading about an end-user getting sued over patent infringement in a product they are using, but did not develop.

    I also cannot recall ever hearing of a company getting sued for using a product that infringes a patent that the company itself did not implement.

    So… odds of me getting sued for using a Mono application? Next to 0.
    Odds of anyone getting sued for using a Mono app? Next to 0.

    Odds of Novell getting sued for patent infringement over Mono? Well, considering that Novell likely own a plethora of patents on things like software update, directory services, and application server software… I’d have to say next to 0.

  79. Dan O'Brian said,

    November 21, 2008 at 6:26 pm


    To be clear in the last paragraph, I meant Novell getting sued over patent infringement over Mono by Microsoft.

    Patent trolls and any other company that might hold patents that Mono may infringe are a separate issue and would have to be analyzed individually.

    Patent trolls, however, generally want to settle out of court and for a pretty small amount of money (compared to what it’d cost to pay a lawyer for more than a day or two), so I doubt Novell is terribly worried about patent trolls.

    Why do you think Microsoft haven’t sued anyone over the 235 patents they claimed FLOSS infringed?

    Because if they sued, they’d be destroyed by companies counter suing.

    You are 100% correct when you point out that Microsoft is just throwing their patent weight around, but not many are fooled by it or take it as any real threat. It’s just a bunch of hot air.

  80. Roy Schestowitz said,

    November 21, 2008 at 6:27 pm


    Just a few quick points:

    1. There’s no “pirating” here. Piracy is a terrible physical crime and also a propaganda term that must not be used to demoniacally describe sharers (or copiers) of music/video, which is not “stealing” (nobody loses anything).

    2. It’s not you who’s at risk with Mono. It’s vendors like Red Hat, whom you don’t want to pass costs down to you (like SLED/S).

  81. jo Shields said,

    November 21, 2008 at 6:28 pm


    I think Dan has covered my key sentiments on the topic. in his 6:17pm (timezone?) comment

    For the record then, perhaps you could consider e-mailing me directly (general ‘you’re too chicken to be here’ statements on your private IRC channel REALLY don’t count) for clarification or comment? before running anything libelous about me? Be a sweetie? Thanks. It might even help your credibility if your “debate” was demonstrably more than just mud-flinging?

  82. Roy Schestowitz said,

    November 21, 2008 at 6:29 pm


    Dan O’Brian,

    re: second comment (beat me to it), Microsoft may have already sued GNU/Linux several times. It doesn’t do this directly.

  83. Roy Schestowitz said,

    November 21, 2008 at 6:30 pm


    Jo, Meeks mailed me some times before, so I no longer mention his name, but I am still likely to discuss the technical side of things.

  84. Dan O'Brian said,

    November 21, 2008 at 6:38 pm


    You have no doubt pirated many of the images you use on your site.

    Have you gotten permission to use Novell’s Mono or Moonlight logos on your site? I doubt it.

    What about the Linux penguin which was created by a Novell employee (Larry Ewing)? I highly doubt it.

    Taking something which is not yours is stealing. Digital or not, it is stealing. Claiming that music artists lose nothing if you illegaly copy music off a friend is incorrect. They lose money in the sense that they do not get money rightly owed to them.

    You don’t even give attribution to the illustrations.

    as far as Red Hat getting sued, I find that unlikely. If Microsoft had any intention of doing so, they would have done it by now.

  85. Roy Schestowitz said,

    November 21, 2008 at 6:43 pm


    The images I use are from Stock Xchng (royalty free) and other sources that make it legal. Regarding trademarks, see this.

  86. jo Shields said,

    November 21, 2008 at 6:54 pm


    Out of interest, ever played a DVD or MP3 on Linux?

  87. Roy Schestowitz said,

    November 21, 2008 at 6:56 pm


    Just MP3s. But I rip my CDs as Ogg Vorbis. I get my codecs with Kaffeine/Amarok.

  88. jo Shields said,

    November 21, 2008 at 7:00 pm


    But you HAVE willfully violated Fraunhofer IIS and Thompson (and more) patents in order to play those MP3s, yes? The jealously guarded MP3 patents that lead to mind-blowing action such as Sisvel’s swat teams descending on trade shows?

  89. Roy Schestowitz said,

    November 21, 2008 at 7:15 pm


    Yes, but few large distributors that I know of put MP3 in there by default. Remember that it’s the big vendors that are potential targets for Philips proxies like Sisvel (OpenMoko is only harassed because it’s small).

    Keep an eye on a post I’ll publish in 5 minutes. It’s related to the bundling of Mono by default.

  90. jo Shields said,

    November 21, 2008 at 7:35 pm


    Sure, most distros don’t have MP3 by default. That’s because it’s actively enforced, and therefore an active risk. Equally, there are plenty of known-patented things which ARE in by default in some distros, where those patents have never shown signs of being actively enforced (take NTFS support as an example). When things are shown to be an active risk, they disappear

    Everyone from Friedman to Stallman is pretty clear on the fact that pretty much any line of code these days can infringe a patent – from Page Down to progress bars to double clicks

    It’s that active enforcement which, in the case of most distributions, is the trigger. Fedora is often viewed as over-sensitive by users left with largely useless media capabilities (unless your entire collection is already Theora/Vorbis, of course)

    You simply cannot write software in today’s market without violating someone’s bogus patents. The question is how much real-world impact that has. In the case of hawks like Sisvel, a lot. In the case of companies who are sued by patent trolls significantly more than they sue others, Microsoft are simply not a high risk

    As has been pointed out to you an infinite number of times, if Microsoft wanted to (and had the ability to do so), they could already start using their big list of patents supposedly violated in just the kernel, and go lawsuit-happy. But I really don’t see the business advantage for them to do so. In the end, that’s the key – MS are a business, and without a compelling business reason for things, they won’t waste their resources on it. Suing a distro for patent infringement would do them more harm than good – for a patent troll, there’s no harm to be done, since their business models are purely litigation-based

    Every big software company has a fat [software] patent portfolio these days, including angels like Red Hat or IBM. Deploying a nuclear arsenal is a dumb move

  91. Roy Schestowitz said,

    November 21, 2008 at 8:27 pm


    There’s a deficiency in this argument about patents because:

    1. Mono, unlike some other things, represents a clear-to-see large-scale copy, which may be needed to seem convincing in court, especially after re Bilski
    2. It’s possible to remove offending packages or code, whereas it is hard to remove a dependency (many applications depend on Mono)
    3. Never forget the importance of the patenter
    4. NTFS makes itself a necessity for access to some data. Think about FAT and EU, even Samba
  92. twitter said,

    November 21, 2008 at 9:20 pm


    Jo, mono offends me. This may be because I’m not into “cross platform” development that relies on M$ tools and really have no use for Windows. GTK/Tkl was supposed to be cross platform and free, but C and shell scripting have always gotten my work done. Mostly mono offends because I believe what Roy has uncovered about patent issues around it. Groklaw looked into it and this boils it down easily. Roy’s quoting of Novell and M$ executives confirms the problem. It’s not like MP3, parts of which free distributions in the US can not distribute, it’s like a specific copy of M$ crap that M$ can legitimately claim to own as much as any software deserves to be owned.

    Now, you have also been offensive. You have admitted to working hard at pushing mono as a default instal in all distributions. I’m happy that mono and C# do nice things for you and your company as they are. This shows that you don’t need it by default and your efforts are simply obnoxious. Your language about Baptist Churches and kooks reinforces this.

  93. Roy Schestowitz said,

    November 21, 2008 at 9:32 pm


    It’s worth adding this much older criticism from Seth.

  94. Dan O'Brian said,

    November 21, 2008 at 11:40 pm


    Out of all of the GNOME developers, he’s the only one who criticized it… and that was years and years ago? And he criticized it back when you said it was fine.

    I’m sorry, but that’s not proof that Mono is dangerous – that’s just 1 guy of community of many (who see nothing wrong with Mono) who is ranting about “omgz, M$ is evul”

    Maybe, had he bothered to do any research, he would have concluded something else. Maybe that’s even why he no longer criticizes Mono. Maybe he got a clue.

  95. G. Michaels said,

    November 22, 2008 at 4:31 am


    twitter, you already fell into the usual foot-in-mouth routine with that petty “I don’t know who you are” claim, followed by proof of your posts on Jo’s blog, and no one here is impressed one bit over what “insults” you, considering you are not and have never been a developer or anything that even resembles that.

    So why don’t you go back to your corner and let the grown ups talk. These half-assed “I must defend Roy” posts are just embarrassing.

    Carry on gentlemen.

    Note: writer of this comment adds absolutely nothing but stalking and personal attacks against readers, as documented here.

  96. jo Shields said,

    November 22, 2008 at 5:26 am


    “Now, you have also been offensive. You have admitted to working hard at pushing mono as a default instal in all distributions.”


    “Your language about Baptist Churches and kooks reinforces this. ”

    WBC is not a church, it’s a dangerous cult. One which proclaims “thank God for 9/11″ and pickets the funerals of soldiers killed in Iraq. Try Google.

  97. Dan O'Brian said,

    November 22, 2008 at 9:36 am


    Haha, twitter is trying to shoot the messenger. I thought Roy and his boys didn’t shoot messengers? ;-)

    I guess they’ve just been caught in more hypocrisy.

  98. Roy Schestowitz said,

    November 22, 2008 at 9:51 am


    What do you want from /me/? Stop trying to discredit people by association.

  99. jo Shields said,

    November 22, 2008 at 10:20 am


    “Stop trying to discredit people by association. ”


  100. Roy Schestowitz said,

    November 22, 2008 at 10:24 am


    Inter-personal association, not affiliation with a company.

  101. jo Shields said,

    November 22, 2008 at 10:53 am


    What’s the difference, where Free Software is concerned?

    Would, say, talking to Keith Packard on an Xorg channel not count as a relationship with Intel in your book? Or Java packager teams – are they not guilty of “affiliation with” Sun?

  102. jo Shields said,

    November 22, 2008 at 10:54 am


    And whatever happened to Friday’s IRC logs? Decided to stop publishing libel, and keep it as ephemeral slander?

  103. Roy Schestowitz said,

    November 22, 2008 at 10:56 am


    Would, say, talking to Keith Packard on an Xorg channel not count as a relationship with Intel in your book? Or Java packager teams – are they not guilty of “affiliation with” Sun?

    Their words should be treated with that in mind. The company they work for represents financial interests. That’s why I tend to also check where publications and analysts get their revenue from.

  104. Roy Schestowitz said,

    November 22, 2008 at 10:57 am


    And whatever happened to Friday’s IRC logs? Decided to stop publishing libel, and keep it as ephemeral slander?

    I went to sleep at 4AM and went to the gym this morning, so my day started at 1PM. I’ll catch up later, thanks for asking.

  105. twitter said,

    November 22, 2008 at 11:18 am


    Jo, Roy said

    I don’t label people anything unless they consistently make considerable attempts to put Mono _by default_ in GNU/Linux distributions that many people

    You did not deny that was true. Instead you asked him to prove there was some kind of motivation for your doing so. A reasonable person would infer that you actively seek to make mono a default install. A normal person would deny the charge instead of insulting and attempting to undermine the person making it.

    You may quibble about my use of the word “all” but “any” is just as offensive to me. No one should be using mono for anything but legacy software porting and that’s not something needed by default. The inclusion of mono is a risk to any distribution that uses it and no distribution should suffer M$ interference like that.

  106. Dan O'Brian said,

    November 22, 2008 at 11:32 am


    Ubuntu was already shipping Mono by default, afaict Jo has simply been trying to keep the packages up to date.

    Besides, if his 1-person-less-than-1-post-per-day-average attempts to get Mono into Ubuntu by default have foiled the combined efforts of yourself, Roy, Slated and Neighborlee’s full-scale 100′s-of-posts-per-day-average anti-Mono FUD slinging efforts with an attempt at *removing* Mono from Ubuntu, then that clearly indicates that you guys are an epic fail.

  107. jo Shields said,

    November 22, 2008 at 11:33 am


    @Roy “That’s why I tend to also check where publications and analysts get their revenue from.”

    And when in doubt, make it up? Really, it’s not as if it’s hard to find my CV, for example, if you wanted actual reality on which to base your attacks on me.

    @twitter “No one should be using mono for anything but legacy software porting”

    Why is it YOUR call on that front? Mono was not designed with that in mind – DotGNU Portable.NET was. Mono was designed to significantly reduce development time and effort within Ximian, by no longer needing to mess about debugging things like C.

    In the case of Ubuntu, which is the distribution I contribute towards, there are two incontrovertible truths:
    * Mark Shuttleworth, as published on this very site, has no specific fears regarding Mono, and believes that you can’t live your life fearful of potential problems.
    * The Desktop Team make decisions on the applications on which to base the Ubuntu Desktop, and make decisions based purely on suitability for a given task – if a Mono app does not pass the test, then it is not used (as was the case with moving from Beagle to Tracker), and vice versa as well

    Ubuntu does not ship Mono by default for the sake of it being Mono – they ship Tomboy and F-Spot by default, plus supporting libraries (which includes the Mono JIT and some libs). If there were compelling apps requiring Java or Haskell or Brainfuck or whatever, then those dependencies would be pulled in too.

    I have no interest in pushing a Mono-based solution when it’s an inferior choice – only technical superiority interests me, which is the main reason I run an Ubuntu desktop in the first place. And, like Shuttleworth, I don’t see Mono as any more at-risk than many other components of my desktop system

  108. jo Shields said,

    November 22, 2008 at 11:37 am


    “Ubuntu was already shipping Mono by default, afaict Jo has simply been trying to keep the packages up to date”

    Mono has shipped in Ubuntu since 5.10 (i.e. over 3 years ago). I know it was in the default Dapper (6.06) version – I don’t remember whether it was in by default on Breezy. I certainly didn’t start paying attention to it until well after I started using Ubuntu

  109. Dan O'Brian said,

    November 22, 2008 at 11:39 am


    Before Twitter attacks Jo for use of the word ‘Brainfuck’, I’d like to point out that ‘Brainfuck’ is an actual programming language. I know Roy and Twitter are too far clueless to realize this without spelling it out for them.


  110. jo Shields said,

    November 22, 2008 at 11:46 am


    And, for the record, I took a look at some CLI compilers for it lately

    The best seemed to be a Python (regular, not Iron) wrapper around the ‘ilasm’ CIL compiler.

    The idea of writing an ASP.NET web service in that kind of language amuses me greatly

  111. twitter said,

    November 22, 2008 at 11:50 am


    Ubuntu is not a good example for Red Hat and others to follow. Shuttleworth and Ubuntu are in South Africa and outside of insane US laws. They can ship DeCSS and other free software without fear. If they want to keep shipping in the US, however, they should be very careful of mono and mono based dependencies.

    The call is not mine, of course, I only want people to be aware of the facts of M$’s licensing and plans which are well documented thanks to Roy and others. You should consider those facts when making a decision, they are long term impediments to whatever technological superiority you see. You would do better to dump the Windows software in your “mixed environment” that has pulled you into mono in the first place.

  112. jo Shields said,

    November 22, 2008 at 11:56 am


    “Shuttleworth and Ubuntu are in South Africa and outside of insane US laws.”

    Canonical is registered in the UK, actually. And subject to UK law.

    “They can ship DeCSS and other free software without fear.”

    1) DeCSS is not in any Ubuntu repositories, full stop. It’s available on one third-party repo.

    2) Make your mind up. If DeCSS is Free Software, then so is Mono, by your own logic. If Mono is not “Free” because of the Novell/MS customer patent protection scheme, then DeCSS is not Free either because of the MPEG-LA’s patent claims against it

    “You would do better to dump the Windows software in your “mixed environment” that has pulled you into mono in the first place. ”

    I have never written a line of C# on, or for, Windows. I’ve TESTED on Windows – ensuring cross-platform execution an excellent way to ensure that your software is well written (e.g. not using any platform-specific hooks). But Windows, like Mac OS, is purely a curio for me where CLI is concerned. I had moved to GNU/Linux as my primary desktop platform years before taking an interest in Mono (which, again, my record shows)

  113. Dan O'Brian said,

    November 22, 2008 at 12:21 pm


    I wonder if neighborlee (see irc logs) is aware that gmail is not F/OSS software? For someone who bashes free software developers for writing free software that isn’t “free enough” for him, I find it strange that he uses proprietary software.

    Oh, wait, I forgot – he and the other flag-carrying BoycottNovellers are hypocrites.

    So much for him being “holier than thou”.

  114. twitter said,

    November 22, 2008 at 7:38 pm


    Mono may be free software, Jo, but it’s still a M$ designed trap. Roy and I have provided links to a former Gnome developer’s opinion and Groklaw. Why do you keep going in circles to avoid discussing the real implications of mono use? The case is specific and an honest discussion would be as well.

    The fact is that this discussion has been much less than honest. My analysis of this conversation will be published in the logs of today’s IRC conversation. Enjoy.

  115. Dan O'Brian said,

    November 22, 2008 at 8:00 pm


    Twitter: there are probably 200 GNOME developers who feel Mono isn’t a problem at all, what difference does it make if only 1 GNOME developer /thought/ otherwise over 3 years ago?

    Can you even confirm he still feels the same way?

  116. Roy Schestowitz said,

    November 22, 2008 at 8:11 pm


    How typical of you to portray situations like this as “one man against the entire world”.

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