Comments on: The OOXML Patent Kat is Out of the Bag http://techrights.org/2008/12/21/cat-is-out-of-the-bag/ Free Software Sentry – watching and reporting maneuvers of those threatened by software freedom Tue, 07 Feb 2012 14:00:35 +0000 hourly 1 http://wordpress.org/?v=3.3.1 By: AlexH http://techrights.org/2008/12/21/cat-is-out-of-the-bag/comment-page-12/#comment-54012 AlexH Tue, 23 Dec 2008 07:49:02 +0000 http://boycottnovell.com/2008/12/21/cat-is-out-of-the-bag/#comment-54012 @Roy: the argument isn't that the OSP is the best thing since sliced bread; it clearly isn't. But it is good enough to implement OOXML without worry from patents; the link you've posted agrees and so do the people implementing OOXML. @Roy: the argument isn’t that the OSP is the best thing since sliced bread; it clearly isn’t. But it is good enough to implement OOXML without worry from patents; the link you’ve posted agrees and so do the people implementing OOXML.

]]> By: Roy Schestowitz http://techrights.org/2008/12/21/cat-is-out-of-the-bag/comment-page-12/#comment-53705 Roy Schestowitz Mon, 22 Dec 2008 20:15:40 +0000 http://boycottnovell.com/2008/12/21/cat-is-out-of-the-bag/#comment-53705 It's quite unsatisfactory as it is. http://brendanscott.wordpress.com/2008/08/04/the-updated-osp-and-free-software-interoperability/ IANAL, but this^^ guy is. It’s quite unsatisfactory as it is.

http://brendanscott.wordpress.com/2008/08/04/the-updated-osp-and-free-software-interoperability/

IANAL, but this^^ guy is.

]]> By: AlexH http://techrights.org/2008/12/21/cat-is-out-of-the-bag/comment-page-12/#comment-53703 AlexH Mon, 22 Dec 2008 20:09:21 +0000 http://boycottnovell.com/2008/12/21/cat-is-out-of-the-bag/#comment-53703 @Roy: it doesn't have to be a binding contract, because it's offered generally. It's a bit like the GPL in that regard - the GPL is also not a contract. What's important is that it is irrevocable: they cannot take it back. It's unilateral, it isn't limited: they can only suspend it if someone sues them first. @Roy: it doesn’t have to be a binding contract, because it’s offered generally. It’s a bit like the GPL in that regard – the GPL is also not a contract.

What’s important is that it is irrevocable: they cannot take it back. It’s unilateral, it isn’t limited: they can only suspend it if someone sues them first.

]]> By: Roy Schestowitz http://techrights.org/2008/12/21/cat-is-out-of-the-bag/comment-page-12/#comment-53702 Roy Schestowitz Mon, 22 Dec 2008 20:05:09 +0000 http://boycottnovell.com/2008/12/21/cat-is-out-of-the-bag/#comment-53702 <blockquote> MS already make available to the general public a patent license that’s royalty free, which is what OOo relies on. </blockquote> But is this permanent? The thing about the OSP is that it's not a binding contract, AFAIK. http://brendanscott.wordpress.com/2008/01/18/more-on-the-osp/

MS already make available to the general public a patent license that’s royalty free, which is what OOo relies on.

But is this permanent? The thing about the OSP is that it’s not a binding contract, AFAIK.

http://brendanscott.wordpress.com/2008/01/18/more-on-the-osp/

]]> By: AlexH http://techrights.org/2008/12/21/cat-is-out-of-the-bag/comment-page-11/#comment-53700 AlexH Mon, 22 Dec 2008 20:01:28 +0000 http://boycottnovell.com/2008/12/21/cat-is-out-of-the-bag/#comment-53700 @Roy B: it's not clear that they made the request along the right channels; and MS already make available to the general public a patent license that's royalty free, which is what OOo relies on. It's fine to be paranoid about software patents. @Roy B: it’s not clear that they made the request along the right channels; and MS already make available to the general public a patent license that’s royalty free, which is what OOo relies on.

It’s fine to be paranoid about software patents.

]]> By: Roy Schestowitz http://techrights.org/2008/12/21/cat-is-out-of-the-bag/comment-page-11/#comment-53699 Roy Schestowitz Mon, 22 Dec 2008 20:00:11 +0000 http://boycottnovell.com/2008/12/21/cat-is-out-of-the-bag/#comment-53699 They also use OOXML to legitimise software patents in places where these are not legal. They also use OOXML to legitimise software patents in places where these are not legal.

]]> By: Roy Bixler http://techrights.org/2008/12/21/cat-is-out-of-the-bag/comment-page-11/#comment-53696 Roy Bixler Mon, 22 Dec 2008 19:55:52 +0000 http://boycottnovell.com/2008/12/21/cat-is-out-of-the-bag/#comment-53696 I doubt many here would disagree that software patents in general are bad things which should never be granted. The point is that use of OOXML requires a patent licence from Microsoft. Microsoft has apparently refused to grant a licence to someone who has asked, by not responding to them in a reasonable period of time. Even if they did grant such a licence, it would most likely be done in such a way as to make it incompatible with the GPL, since they would certainly not make their grant available to sub-licencees. Put this together with Microsoft's rhetoric that "our intellectual property needs to respected", "Linux violates 235 of our patents", "Linux users have an undisclosed balance liability sheet". Given this background, it's not unreasonable to be paranoid about the use that Microsoft might make of their software patents. I doubt many here would disagree that software patents in general are bad things which should never be granted. The point is that use of OOXML requires a patent licence from Microsoft. Microsoft has apparently refused to grant a licence to someone who has asked, by not responding to them in a reasonable period of time. Even if they did grant such a licence, it would most likely be done in such a way as to make it incompatible with the GPL, since they would certainly not make their grant available to sub-licencees. Put this together with Microsoft’s rhetoric that “our intellectual property needs to respected”, “Linux violates 235 of our patents”, “Linux users have an undisclosed balance liability sheet”. Given this background, it’s not unreasonable to be paranoid about the use that Microsoft might make of their software patents.

]]> By: AlexH http://techrights.org/2008/12/21/cat-is-out-of-the-bag/comment-page-11/#comment-53692 AlexH Mon, 22 Dec 2008 19:37:30 +0000 http://boycottnovell.com/2008/12/21/cat-is-out-of-the-bag/#comment-53692 @Victor: I think you're missing the point. Saying that there is a potential threat from patents in a product one company is pushing is one thing. Saying that there is a threat in multiple products from different companies and distributed widely is quite another. It's not just asking us to believe that Novell are ignorant of the threat; it's asking us to believe that Sun are ignorant, anyone distributing OOo is ignorant, etc. etc. It's too much. These businesses and organisations are aware of the problems with software patents. Asking us to believe that they are naive / unaware / whatever is too much. @Victor: I think you’re missing the point.

Saying that there is a potential threat from patents in a product one company is pushing is one thing. Saying that there is a threat in multiple products from different companies and distributed widely is quite another. It’s not just asking us to believe that Novell are ignorant of the threat; it’s asking us to believe that Sun are ignorant, anyone distributing OOo is ignorant, etc. etc.

It’s too much. These businesses and organisations are aware of the problems with software patents. Asking us to believe that they are naive / unaware / whatever is too much.

]]> By: Victor Soliz http://techrights.org/2008/12/21/cat-is-out-of-the-bag/comment-page-11/#comment-53680 Victor Soliz Mon, 22 Dec 2008 17:27:24 +0000 http://boycottnovell.com/2008/12/21/cat-is-out-of-the-bag/#comment-53680 The novell fans are just trying to say "Sun does evil too" Novell is ok. If Sun does evil too, let them fuck off from Free software as well? Is it really that hard? Mono and OOXML in OOo remain threats to free software, of course, we are now screwed up thanks to ISO and ECMA giving the title of 'open standard' to all sorts of lock-in that require licensing or patent deals, so really, it is a no brainner. It is irrelevant what Sun does or does not. Novell still made that one deal, Mono is still a danger, OOXML still terrible as an open standard. Dear Dan, diverting attention will not work forever. Thanks. It would be fun if this stayed on topic... Does anyone of the OOXML advocates have something to say about the noooxml link Roy has posted? Or should we all just ignore the actual article because Sun is evil too? The novell fans are just trying to say “Sun does evil too” Novell is ok. If Sun does evil too, let them fuck off from Free software as well? Is it really that hard? Mono and OOXML in OOo remain threats to free software, of course, we are now screwed up thanks to ISO and ECMA giving the title of ‘open standard’ to all sorts of lock-in that require licensing or patent deals, so really, it is a no brainner.

It is irrelevant what Sun does or does not. Novell still made that one deal, Mono is still a danger, OOXML still terrible as an open standard. Dear Dan, diverting attention will not work forever. Thanks.

It would be fun if this stayed on topic… Does anyone of the OOXML advocates have something to say about the noooxml link Roy has posted? Or should we all just ignore the actual article because Sun is evil too?

]]> By: Jo Shields http://techrights.org/2008/12/21/cat-is-out-of-the-bag/comment-page-10/#comment-53556 Jo Shields Mon, 22 Dec 2008 09:42:17 +0000 http://boycottnovell.com/2008/12/21/cat-is-out-of-the-bag/#comment-53556 Yes, "fought", what with getting paid engineers to work on it and all And if you had the faintest idea what Go-OO was, perhaps you might understand WHY it got that feature sooner Yes, “fought”, what with getting paid engineers to work on it and all

And if you had the faintest idea what Go-OO was, perhaps you might understand WHY it got that feature sooner

]]> By: Roy Schestowitz http://techrights.org/2008/12/21/cat-is-out-of-the-bag/comment-page-10/#comment-53555 Roy Schestowitz Mon, 22 Dec 2008 09:40:46 +0000 http://boycottnovell.com/2008/12/21/cat-is-out-of-the-bag/#comment-53555 Microsoft's ally (Novell) was already pushing it into its fork of OOo, which put pressure on Sun. Unlike Novell, Sun fought against OOXML. Microsoft’s ally (Novell) was already pushing it into its fork of OOo, which put pressure on Sun. Unlike Novell, Sun fought against OOXML.

]]> By: Jo Shields http://techrights.org/2008/12/21/cat-is-out-of-the-bag/comment-page-10/#comment-53554 Jo Shields Mon, 22 Dec 2008 09:37:08 +0000 http://boycottnovell.com/2008/12/21/cat-is-out-of-the-bag/#comment-53554 <blockquote>Sun is not the bad guy here. It makes OOo, for starters.</blockquote> And spends significant resources on adding OOXML support to it Either Sun are deliberately putting OOo users at risk for reasons unknown, or OOXML isn't the danger you're claiming it to be. Pick one.

Sun is not the bad guy here. It makes OOo, for starters.

And spends significant resources on adding OOXML support to it

Either Sun are deliberately putting OOo users at risk for reasons unknown, or OOXML isn’t the danger you’re claiming it to be.

Pick one.

]]> By: Roy Schestowitz http://techrights.org/2008/12/21/cat-is-out-of-the-bag/comment-page-10/#comment-53549 Roy Schestowitz Mon, 22 Dec 2008 09:24:18 +0000 http://boycottnovell.com/2008/12/21/cat-is-out-of-the-bag/#comment-53549 Sun is not the bad guy here. It makes OOo, for starters. Sun is not the bad guy here. It makes OOo, for starters.

]]> By: aeshna23 http://techrights.org/2008/12/21/cat-is-out-of-the-bag/comment-page-10/#comment-53475 aeshna23 Mon, 22 Dec 2008 04:03:53 +0000 http://boycottnovell.com/2008/12/21/cat-is-out-of-the-bag/#comment-53475 "What about their funding of SCO to attack Linux?" That was an earlier decision, before they committed to their present course. Firms can change their business strategy, but it is costly to do so. No doubt when Sun decided to free Java, the firm lost some value (stock price went down), but they hoped to regain that value by good will from their commitment to FOSS. A costly commitment to a strategy are usually hard to change for psychological as well as practical reasons. Dan, I have a question for you. I know Roy is strident in ways, but he is rational. Why are you so irrational? It's really quite unseemly. To be clear, by "irrational", I mean equivalencing thing that clearly aren't the same to make a rhetorical point. “What about their funding of SCO to attack Linux?”

That was an earlier decision, before they committed to their present course. Firms can change their business strategy, but it is costly to do so. No doubt when Sun decided to free Java, the firm lost some value (stock price went down), but they hoped to regain that value by good will from their commitment to FOSS. A costly commitment to a strategy are usually hard to change for psychological as well as practical reasons.

Dan, I have a question for you. I know Roy is strident in ways, but he is rational. Why are you so irrational? It’s really quite unseemly. To be clear, by “irrational”, I mean equivalencing thing that clearly aren’t the same to make a rhetorical point.

]]> By: Dan O'Brian http://techrights.org/2008/12/21/cat-is-out-of-the-bag/comment-page-9/#comment-53462 Dan O'Brian Mon, 22 Dec 2008 03:33:27 +0000 http://boycottnovell.com/2008/12/21/cat-is-out-of-the-bag/#comment-53462 <blockquote>but given Sun’s past actions (e.g. Java) it’s almost incomprehensible how it would now be in Sun’s interest to defeat FOSS.</blockquote> What about their funding of SCO to attack Linux? As far as OOXML, wasn't it just a few days ago that Roy published an article claiming that OOXML was a patent trap? Now it's all hunky-dory because he says it's possible that these patents can be invalidated via prior art. Why isn't it possible for patents concerning Mono to be invalidated via prior art? It's even easier to use prior art in the case of Mono (Java, scheme, smalltalk, etc). Besides, according to Roy - it's the patent holder that matters, not the patent. Microsoft is the one that would own patents on OOXML, so it is irrelevant if you believe Sun is a saint or not, according to Roy.

but given Sun’s past actions (e.g. Java) it’s almost incomprehensible how it would now be in Sun’s interest to defeat FOSS.

What about their funding of SCO to attack Linux?

As far as OOXML, wasn’t it just a few days ago that Roy published an article claiming that OOXML was a patent trap? Now it’s all hunky-dory because he says it’s possible that these patents can be invalidated via prior art.

Why isn’t it possible for patents concerning Mono to be invalidated via prior art? It’s even easier to use prior art in the case of Mono (Java, scheme, smalltalk, etc).

Besides, according to Roy – it’s the patent holder that matters, not the patent. Microsoft is the one that would own patents on OOXML, so it is irrelevant if you believe Sun is a saint or not, according to Roy.

]]> By: aeshna23 http://techrights.org/2008/12/21/cat-is-out-of-the-bag/comment-page-9/#comment-53459 aeshna23 Mon, 22 Dec 2008 03:26:19 +0000 http://boycottnovell.com/2008/12/21/cat-is-out-of-the-bag/#comment-53459 Some unfair attacks on Roy's logic are being launched here. There are massive differences between Microsoft and Sun in terms of both interest and culture. Microsoft's interest in defeating FOSS are obvious, but given Sun's past actions (e.g. Java) it's almost incomprehensible how it would now be in Sun's interest to defeat FOSS. Furthermore, Sun past actions--despite whatever earlier sins Sun may or may not committed--has created a pro-FOSS culture inside Sun. Microsoft blatantly has a culture antagonistic towards FOSS--baring some small areas of the companies which are probably there for cosmetic reasons. It is these differences between Sun and Microsoft that causes mono to be much more of a threat than OOXML in OOo--if the latter a threat at all. No double stand at all on Roy's behalf. Ironically, the Greek word for the type of judgment required to think about these issues is "Phronesis" often translated as "practical wisdom". Some unfair attacks on Roy’s logic are being launched here. There are massive differences between Microsoft and Sun in terms of both interest and culture. Microsoft’s interest in defeating FOSS are obvious, but given Sun’s past actions (e.g. Java) it’s almost incomprehensible how it would now be in Sun’s interest to defeat FOSS. Furthermore, Sun past actions–despite whatever earlier sins Sun may or may not committed–has created a pro-FOSS culture inside Sun. Microsoft blatantly has a culture antagonistic towards FOSS–baring some small areas of the companies which are probably there for cosmetic reasons.

It is these differences between Sun and Microsoft that causes mono to be much more of a threat than OOXML in OOo–if the latter a threat at all. No double stand at all on Roy’s behalf.

Ironically, the Greek word for the type of judgment required to think about these issues is “Phronesis” often translated as “practical wisdom”.

]]> By: Roy Schestowitz http://techrights.org/2008/12/21/cat-is-out-of-the-bag/comment-page-9/#comment-53321 Roy Schestowitz Sun, 21 Dec 2008 23:52:54 +0000 http://boycottnovell.com/2008/12/21/cat-is-out-of-the-bag/#comment-53321 <a href="http://boycottnovell.com/2008/12/21/cat-is-out-of-the-bag/#comment-53123" rel="nofollow">Here</a>. Here.

]]> By: Dan O'Brian http://techrights.org/2008/12/21/cat-is-out-of-the-bag/comment-page-9/#comment-53318 Dan O'Brian Sun, 21 Dec 2008 23:51:41 +0000 http://boycottnovell.com/2008/12/21/cat-is-out-of-the-bag/#comment-53318 Where is it stated that this was a settlement? Where is it stated that this was a settlement?

]]> By: Roy Schestowitz http://techrights.org/2008/12/21/cat-is-out-of-the-bag/comment-page-9/#comment-53301 Roy Schestowitz Sun, 21 Dec 2008 23:45:20 +0000 http://boycottnovell.com/2008/12/21/cat-is-out-of-the-bag/#comment-53301 It was a settlement. It was a settlement.

]]> By: Dan O'Brian http://techrights.org/2008/12/21/cat-is-out-of-the-bag/comment-page-8/#comment-53298 Dan O'Brian Sun, 21 Dec 2008 23:43:35 +0000 http://boycottnovell.com/2008/12/21/cat-is-out-of-the-bag/#comment-53298 It's especially disconcerting since Sun not only has a similar patent deal with Microsoft (as Novell) <i>and</i> Sun is suspected of having funded SCO's attacks against Linux. It’s especially disconcerting since Sun not only has a similar patent deal with Microsoft (as Novell) and Sun is suspected of having funded SCO’s attacks against Linux.

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