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	<title>Comments on: Links 01/03/2009: New Wine, Safari Compatibility</title>
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	<link>http://techrights.org/2009/03/01/wine-safari-compatibility/</link>
	<description>Free Software Sentry – watching and reporting maneuvers of those threatened by software freedom</description>
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		<title>By: Roy Schestowitz</title>
		<link>http://techrights.org/2009/03/01/wine-safari-compatibility/comment-page-2/#comment-60091</link>
		<dc:creator>Roy Schestowitz</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 01 Mar 2009 16:58:27 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://boycottnovell.com/2009/03/01/wine-safari-compatibility/#comment-60091</guid>
		<description>Yes, many design considerations in Windows &lt;a href=&quot;http://boycottnovell.com/comes-vs-microsoft/addenda/demonstrate.NTServer%20as.THE.Internet.platform/&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;were an afterthought&lt;/a&gt;.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Yes, many design considerations in Windows <a href="http://boycottnovell.com/comes-vs-microsoft/addenda/demonstrate.NTServer%20as.THE.Internet.platform/" rel="nofollow">were an afterthought</a>.</p>
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		<title>By: David Gerard</title>
		<link>http://techrights.org/2009/03/01/wine-safari-compatibility/comment-page-2/#comment-60089</link>
		<dc:creator>David Gerard</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 01 Mar 2009 14:48:13 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://boycottnovell.com/2009/03/01/wine-safari-compatibility/#comment-60089</guid>
		<description>The Corporate Toddler argument: what&#039;s yours is mine and what&#039;s mine is mine. If I looked at it, it&#039;s mine. If I thought about it, it&#039;s mine. etc. In the artistic and technical world, everything is stolen from everything else and usually has to be if it&#039;s to be any good; the thing is to give credit. &quot;Intellectual property&quot; as a lever to stop someone developing from your work is an odious lie.

On Windows&#039; technical quality, I found the &lt;a href=&quot;http://www.kuro5hin.org/story/2004/2/15/71552/7795&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;Kuro5hin article on the Windows 2000 source&lt;/a&gt; instructive. (No code quoted, only comments.) This illustrates the Windows problem: smart people, doing their best, with something that was &lt;i&gt;not designed&lt;/i&gt;.

(Relentless backward compatibility leads to &lt;a href=&quot;http://www.kuro5hin.org/story/2004/2/15/11942/2702&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;its own problems&lt;/a&gt;, but others (notably Sun with Solaris) have less problems with this because their Unix actually has a design and modularity.)

I find this interesting as a particularly fascinating car crash. It&#039;s the sort of thing that makes me think Microsoft will crash in a sudden and unexpected (except by those who were paying attention) manner - there&#039;s really very little under the shell.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>The Corporate Toddler argument: what&#8217;s yours is mine and what&#8217;s mine is mine. If I looked at it, it&#8217;s mine. If I thought about it, it&#8217;s mine. etc. In the artistic and technical world, everything is stolen from everything else and usually has to be if it&#8217;s to be any good; the thing is to give credit. &#8220;Intellectual property&#8221; as a lever to stop someone developing from your work is an odious lie.</p>
<p>On Windows&#8217; technical quality, I found the <a href="http://www.kuro5hin.org/story/2004/2/15/71552/7795" rel="nofollow">Kuro5hin article on the Windows 2000 source</a> instructive. (No code quoted, only comments.) This illustrates the Windows problem: smart people, doing their best, with something that was <i>not designed</i>.</p>
<p>(Relentless backward compatibility leads to <a href="http://www.kuro5hin.org/story/2004/2/15/11942/2702" rel="nofollow">its own problems</a>, but others (notably Sun with Solaris) have less problems with this because their Unix actually has a design and modularity.)</p>
<p>I find this interesting as a particularly fascinating car crash. It&#8217;s the sort of thing that makes me think Microsoft will crash in a sudden and unexpected (except by those who were paying attention) manner &#8211; there&#8217;s really very little under the shell.</p>
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		<title>By: Roy Schestowitz</title>
		<link>http://techrights.org/2009/03/01/wine-safari-compatibility/comment-page-2/#comment-60086</link>
		<dc:creator>Roy Schestowitz</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 01 Mar 2009 14:23:43 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://boycottnovell.com/2009/03/01/wine-safari-compatibility/#comment-60086</guid>
		<description>I have a problem with Microsoft claiming &quot;theft&quot; when ideas are inherited or adopted for habitual or technical compatibility (e.g. vfat). I guess that is the case I was making.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I have a problem with Microsoft claiming &#8220;theft&#8221; when ideas are inherited or adopted for habitual or technical compatibility (e.g. vfat). I guess that is the case I was making.</p>
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		<title>By: David Gerard</title>
		<link>http://techrights.org/2009/03/01/wine-safari-compatibility/comment-page-2/#comment-60083</link>
		<dc:creator>David Gerard</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 01 Mar 2009 14:05:31 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://boycottnovell.com/2009/03/01/wine-safari-compatibility/#comment-60083</guid>
		<description>Well, yeah. Copying things is fine, but you have to have (a) deep understanding of what you&#039;re doing (b) taste. That&#039;s why the open source Unix clones have worked out well: world domination is not a design goal and can only work if it comes as a side-effect. Windows is deeply, deeply shit because they were making it up as they went along and had the hubris to think this was enough technically.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Well, yeah. Copying things is fine, but you have to have (a) deep understanding of what you&#8217;re doing (b) taste. That&#8217;s why the open source Unix clones have worked out well: world domination is not a design goal and can only work if it comes as a side-effect. Windows is deeply, deeply shit because they were making it up as they went along and had the hubris to think this was enough technically.</p>
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		<title>By: Roy Schestowitz</title>
		<link>http://techrights.org/2009/03/01/wine-safari-compatibility/comment-page-1/#comment-60082</link>
		<dc:creator>Roy Schestowitz</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 01 Mar 2009 13:59:47 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://boycottnovell.com/2009/03/01/wine-safari-compatibility/#comment-60082</guid>
		<description>&lt;blockquote&gt;
It’s the last twenty years, not the last two years. This has been how Windows has always been built: brilliant people doing things shoddily.
&lt;/blockquote&gt;

Actually, Windows was built as a bad copycat of another system.

Also see:

http://www.vanwensveen.nl/rants/microsoft/IhateMS.html
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gary_Kildall</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<blockquote><p>
It’s the last twenty years, not the last two years. This has been how Windows has always been built: brilliant people doing things shoddily.
</p></blockquote>
<p>Actually, Windows was built as a bad copycat of another system.</p>
<p>Also see:</p>
<p><a href="http://www.vanwensveen.nl/rants/microsoft/IhateMS.html" rel="nofollow">http://www.vanwensveen.nl/rants/microsoft/IhateMS.html</a><br />
<a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gary_Kildall" rel="nofollow">http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gary_Kildall</a></p>
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		<title>By: David Gerard</title>
		<link>http://techrights.org/2009/03/01/wine-safari-compatibility/comment-page-1/#comment-60078</link>
		<dc:creator>David Gerard</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 01 Mar 2009 13:51:14 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://boycottnovell.com/2009/03/01/wine-safari-compatibility/#comment-60078</guid>
		<description>It&#039;s the last twenty years, not the last two years. This has been how Windows has always been built: brilliant people doing things shoddily.

Previously developers cycled out because they&#039;d had enough options vest that they were rich; now they cycle out because the stock is moribund and Microsoft is increasingly clogged by bureaucracy (see Mini-Microsoft comments).</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>It&#8217;s the last twenty years, not the last two years. This has been how Windows has always been built: brilliant people doing things shoddily.</p>
<p>Previously developers cycled out because they&#8217;d had enough options vest that they were rich; now they cycle out because the stock is moribund and Microsoft is increasingly clogged by bureaucracy (see Mini-Microsoft comments).</p>
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		<title>By: Roy Schestowitz</title>
		<link>http://techrights.org/2009/03/01/wine-safari-compatibility/comment-page-1/#comment-60077</link>
		<dc:creator>Roy Schestowitz</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 01 Mar 2009 13:45:27 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://boycottnovell.com/2009/03/01/wine-safari-compatibility/#comment-60077</guid>
		<description>Some key Windows developers left over the past 2 years. I saw reports.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Some key Windows developers left over the past 2 years. I saw reports.</p>
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		<title>By: David Gerard</title>
		<link>http://techrights.org/2009/03/01/wine-safari-compatibility/comment-page-1/#comment-60075</link>
		<dc:creator>David Gerard</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 01 Mar 2009 13:27:21 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://boycottnovell.com/2009/03/01/wine-safari-compatibility/#comment-60075</guid>
		<description>Oh, and that&#039;s more interesting than it looks: if you look at the patch, you&#039;ll see it doesn&#039;t actually &lt;i&gt;do anything&lt;/i&gt; other than define the existence of the function. It&#039;s amazing and somewhat silly just how many Windows functions are implemented in Wine just as stubs that don&#039;t do anything at all, and how often that&#039;s entirely enough for apps to run flawlessly.

This is why Wine takes a pragmatic approach to win32, implementing only what&#039;s needed for applications when a need is shown - rather than sitting down with MSDN and trying to implement everything in full from the book. Large areas of win32 are all but unused in real life and are pretty much superfluous.

This is what happens when your operating system is written by continuously swapped-out fresh graduates who are indeed smarter than anyone else but have no experience, the feature roadmap is dictated by the hairpin turns of marketing and your entire approach to gaining vendor lockin can be summed up as &quot;layer violation:&quot; you end up with a ton of stuff that no-one understands, no-one uses and no-one keeps working, assuming it ever did work (which it all too often didn&#039;t - the documentation is frequently, ahh, more hopeful than accurate). This is why the Samba team are more expert in SMB than anyone left at Microsoft, for instance.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Oh, and that&#8217;s more interesting than it looks: if you look at the patch, you&#8217;ll see it doesn&#8217;t actually <i>do anything</i> other than define the existence of the function. It&#8217;s amazing and somewhat silly just how many Windows functions are implemented in Wine just as stubs that don&#8217;t do anything at all, and how often that&#8217;s entirely enough for apps to run flawlessly.</p>
<p>This is why Wine takes a pragmatic approach to win32, implementing only what&#8217;s needed for applications when a need is shown &#8211; rather than sitting down with MSDN and trying to implement everything in full from the book. Large areas of win32 are all but unused in real life and are pretty much superfluous.</p>
<p>This is what happens when your operating system is written by continuously swapped-out fresh graduates who are indeed smarter than anyone else but have no experience, the feature roadmap is dictated by the hairpin turns of marketing and your entire approach to gaining vendor lockin can be summed up as &#8220;layer violation:&#8221; you end up with a ton of stuff that no-one understands, no-one uses and no-one keeps working, assuming it ever did work (which it all too often didn&#8217;t &#8211; the documentation is frequently, ahh, more hopeful than accurate). This is why the Samba team are more expert in SMB than anyone left at Microsoft, for instance.</p>
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		<title>By: David Gerard</title>
		<link>http://techrights.org/2009/03/01/wine-safari-compatibility/comment-page-1/#comment-60074</link>
		<dc:creator>David Gerard</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 01 Mar 2009 13:18:02 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://boycottnovell.com/2009/03/01/wine-safari-compatibility/#comment-60074</guid>
		<description>Safari doesn&#039;t work in Wine yet without a transplanted XP DLL, iphlpapi.dll (that can&#039;t be legitimately obtained anywhere else). This is &lt;a href=&quot;http://bugs.winehq.org/show_bug.cgi?id=14574&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;bug 14574&lt;/a&gt; and there&#039;s a patch - cross fingers Alexandre considers it good enough! This will also get a pile of other apps working.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Safari doesn&#8217;t work in Wine yet without a transplanted XP DLL, iphlpapi.dll (that can&#8217;t be legitimately obtained anywhere else). This is <a href="http://bugs.winehq.org/show_bug.cgi?id=14574" rel="nofollow">bug 14574</a> and there&#8217;s a patch &#8211; cross fingers Alexandre considers it good enough! This will also get a pile of other apps working.</p>
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