03.28.09

IRC: #boycottnovell @ FreeNode: March 27th, 2009 – Part 1

Posted in IRC Logs at 4:14 am by Dr. Roy Schestowitz

To use your own IRC client, join channel #boycottnovell in FreeNode.

oiaohm	Hurd and Minux are both about design indestructable OS’s/	Mar 27 00:00
Balrog_	I see….	Mar 27 00:01
Balrog_	Minix *	Mar 27 00:01
_Hicham_	no one is interested in hurd	Mar 27 00:02
_Hicham_	torvalds still laughs at hurd people	Mar 27 00:02
_Hicham_	microkernel is just a fantasm	Mar 27 00:02
oiaohm	There are places for hurd and minix designs just not many.	Mar 27 00:02
_Hicham_	like debian project	Mar 27 00:03
oiaohm	minix in one test operated with most of it drivers crashing.	Mar 27 00:03
schestowitz	><_Hicham_> microkernel is just a fantasm	Mar 27 00:03
Balrog_	Somehow Apple does well with a partially-microkernel-based design … true, it’s not a true microkernel, but it somehow works	Mar 27 00:03
schestowitz	Linus’ inspirers does not agree	Mar 27 00:03
schestowitz	*inspirer	Mar 27 00:03
oiaohm	This is important for items you send to where you cannot repair them _Hicham_	Mar 27 00:03
oiaohm	You want them to limp not die.	Mar 27 00:03
oiaohm	Hopefully limp enough that you can remote access repair them.	Mar 27 00:04
_Hicham_	there is no true microkernel until till today	Mar 27 00:04
_Hicham_	at best, there are hybrid ones	Mar 27 00:04
schestowitz	_Hicham_: see the “Linux is obsolete” thread. Linux is also written mostly in C	Mar 27 00:05
_Hicham_	it is tannenbaum	Mar 27 00:05
schestowitz	yes	Mar 27 00:06
_Hicham_	I know that	Mar 27 00:06
_Hicham_	it is a famous saying	Mar 27 00:06
_Hicham_	everybody knows it	Mar 27 00:06
_Hicham_	he is the one to inspire Torvalds	Mar 27 00:06
_Hicham_	there is some funny stories about that	Mar 27 00:06
_Hicham_	Tannenbaum told Torvalds : if u were my student, I would have given u an F	Mar 27 00:07
Balrog_	what do you guys think of the Dirac video codec? I hear it may have better quality than Theora	Mar 27 00:07
Balrog_	and is foss / patent free	Mar 27 00:07
_Hicham_	it is from the BBC?	Mar 27 00:07
Balrog_	yeah, I think so…	Mar 27 00:07
Balrog_	http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dira…	Mar 27 00:08
_Hicham_	is there any streaming content using it?	Mar 27 00:08
Balrog_	That I do not know.	Mar 27 00:08
_Hicham_	even Ogg is still struggling to get its place	Mar 27 00:09
_Hicham_	though it has better quality than existing format	Mar 27 00:10
_Hicham_	formats	Mar 27 00:10
oiaohm	Ogg will get more with intregraton into webbrowsers	Mar 27 00:10
oiaohm	Bit like how flash video format got high up list.	Mar 27 00:10
_Hicham_	I hope so	Mar 27 00:10
_Hicham_	I don’t like how adobe is doing thing	Mar 27 00:10
_Hicham_	the only thing that they did right is PDF Spec	Mar 27 00:10
Balrog_	Is Ogg better quality than h.264? The quality / size ratios I get with the x.264 encoder are very high	Mar 27 00:11
Balrog_	true, the patents aren’t good :/	Mar 27 00:11
_Hicham_	but x264 is free?	Mar 27 00:11
Balrog_	x264 is foss, but there are patents	Mar 27 00:11
Balrog_	it’s like LAME	Mar 27 00:11
_Hicham_	it is not good then	Mar 27 00:11
Balrog_	yeah I know :/	Mar 27 00:11
_Hicham_	free as in freedom	Mar 27 00:12
_Hicham_	no patents	Mar 27 00:12
Balrog_	we need a patent-free codec with comparable quality	Mar 27 00:12
_Hicham_	no obstacles to the science	Mar 27 00:12
_Hicham_	I don’t like it when Corporations block the way to science	Mar 27 00:12
schestowitz	Ogg is good	Mar 27 00:13
schestowitz	osnews fudded it	Mar 27 00:13
schestowitz	pj refuted me	Mar 27 00:13
schestowitz	others did too	Mar 27 00:13
schestowitz	bn has hundereds og ogg on it	Mar 27 00:13
schestowitz	*of	Mar 27 00:13
Balrog_	yeah, I see…	Mar 27 00:13
*schestowitz eats, so no shift button		Mar 27 00:13
Balrog_	Dirac is still somewhat new and experimental	Mar 27 00:14
Balrog_	but it’s quality (AFAIK) is much higher	Mar 27 00:14
_Hicham_	it is supported by GStreamer	Mar 27 00:14
Balrog_	true, but the decoding speed / processing power required is still too high	Mar 27 00:15
Balrog_	(for most practical use)	Mar 27 00:15
schestowitz	maybe Mozilla will add dirac too	Mar 27 00:15
schestowitz	Won’t cost anything, will it?	Mar 27 00:15
schestowitz	Not even performance for Firefox… no need to loan this on startup	Mar 27 00:16
Balrog_	it’s foss and patent-free	Mar 27 00:16
Balrog_	yeah that’s true, load only when needed	Mar 27 00:16
Balrog_	but first we need to get people to work on it to improve it	Mar 27 00:16
schestowitz	People must demand that the Treasury works transparently. Stimulus Bill Includes First (and Maybe Only) Federal Data Breach Notification Law < http://www.itbusinessedge.com/cm/… >	Mar 27 00:17
Balrog_	what about chip decoders / encoders for ogg? are those around yet?	Mar 27 00:17
_Hicham_	I hate flash anyway	Mar 27 00:17
Balrog_	Like they are common for h.264	Mar 27 00:18
_Hicham_	I think so	Mar 27 00:18
Balrog_	but not (yet?) for ogg?	Mar 27 00:18
schestowitz	Flash will get worse	Mar 27 00:18
schestowitz	Wires thicken	Mar 27 00:18
schestowitz	More people move to Web videos	Mar 27 00:18
_Hicham_	there are some chip decoders for ogg	Mar 27 00:18
schestowitz	Newspapers too (online)	Mar 27 00:18
Balrog_	good ones?	Mar 27 00:18
schestowitz	Microsott and Novell promote Silver/Moon Lie for a reason	Mar 27 00:18
_Hicham_	Balrog_ : I think so	Mar 27 00:18
schestowitz	Duopoly	Mar 27 00:18
_Hicham_	better promote Firefox	Mar 27 00:19
_Hicham_	aka IceWeasel	Mar 27 00:19
_Hicham_	a lot of sites are blocking IceWeasel	Mar 27 00:19
_Hicham_	they are just plain dumb	Mar 27 00:19
Balrog_	_Hicham_: really?	Mar 27 00:19
_Hicham_	yes	Mar 27 00:19
Balrog_	or are they just looking for Firefox specificly?	Mar 27 00:20
Balrog_	specifically *	Mar 27 00:20
_Hicham_	looking for Firefox	Mar 27 00:20
Balrog_	and not caring about ‘weird’ user-agents	Mar 27 00:20
_Hicham_	in user agent	Mar 27 00:20
schestowitz	Common	Mar 27 00:20
schestowitz	yahopo too	Mar 27 00:20
_Hicham_	that is what MS have done to us	Mar 27 00:20
_Hicham_	rely on user agent	Mar 27 00:20
_Hicham_	fucking MS	Mar 27 00:20
schestowitz	hader sniffers should be suspended	Mar 27 00:20
Balrog_	that’s why user agent discrimination is very dangerous	Mar 27 00:20
Balrog_		Mar 27 00:20
schestowitz	Sent to detention	Mar 27 00:20
_Hicham_	I hate u MS	Mar 27 00:21
_Hicham_	they divided the web	Mar 27 00:21
schestowitz	They also have MSIE-only tags	Mar 27 00:21
schestowitz	I use them	Mar 27 00:21
schestowitz	I BN	Mar 27 00:21
schestowitz	Every page	Mar 27 00:21
Balrog_	why?	Mar 27 00:21
schestowitz	To display a message saying the user should dump IE	Mar 27 00:21
schestowitz	And uupgrade to Linux	Mar 27 00:21
schestowitz	Access BN articles with IE	Mar 27 00:21
schestowitz	You’ll see	Mar 27 00:21
schestowitz	About 11% of our visitors use IE	Mar 27 00:21
_Hicham_	I didn’t use IE to access BN	Mar 27 00:22
Balrog_	it’s not relying on user agent? that I can switch easily	Mar 27 00:22
Balrog_	starting a windows instance and trying it in IE would be harder	Mar 27 00:22
schestowitz	_Hicham_: watch page source in a BN post	Mar 27 00:22
schestowitz	Look for the IE part	Mar 27 00:22
_Hicham_	is it relying on javascript?	Mar 27 00:22
schestowitz	_Hicham_: no	Mar 27 00:22
schestowitz	I was going to	Mar 27 00:22
schestowitz	Someone from Fidland said there’s a cleaner way	Mar 27 00:22
schestowitz	Why?	Mar 27 00:22
schestowitz	Because MS created its own tags	Mar 27 00:23
schestowitz	For IE-only	Mar 27 00:23
schestowitz	Nice, ain’t it?	Mar 27 00:23
_Hicham_	that is great	Mar 27 00:23
_Hicham_	i agree	Mar 27 00:23
schestowitz	Microsoft makes its own tags	Mar 27 00:23
schestowitz	The “for us” <tag>	Mar 27 00:23
Balrog_	wasn’t MS the first to put tags for AJAX? so I heard…	Mar 27 00:23
_Hicham_	MS was very interested in AJAX	Mar 27 00:24
_Hicham_	like it was with CSS	Mar 27 00:24
Balrog_	ahh	Mar 27 00:25
Balrog_	you’re using ‘ <!–[if IE]>’ tags	Mar 27 00:25
Balrog_	isn’t that standards?	Mar 27 00:25
Balrog_	I see…	Mar 27 00:25
_Hicham_	I don’t think so	Mar 27 00:26
_Hicham_	those are just for the png fixes	Mar 27 00:26
Balrog_	<!–[if IE]>	Mar 27 00:27
Balrog_	<p style=”text-align: center;”><a href=”http://browsehappy.com/” title=”We recommends a better Wb browser”><img src=”/wp-admin/images/browse-happy.gif” alt=”Browse Happy” /></a>       <a href=”http://boycottnovell.com/mov…“>Upgrade to GNU/Linux</a></p>	Mar 27 00:27
Balrog_	<![endif]–>	Mar 27 00:27
schestowitz	http://www.linuxdevices.com/news/N… (Study: Handset sales fall, but will flatten in 2010); so the theory about PCs replaced by phones in poor economy is wobbly	Mar 27 00:27
schestowitz	Balrog: oops. Typo there.	Mar 27 00:27
schestowitz	“Wb browser”	Mar 27 00:27
_Hicham_	We recommend a better web browser	Mar 27 00:28
schestowitz	Yes	Mar 27 00:28
schestowitz	Let me fix it	Mar 27 00:28
balzac	“The concept of a desktop is kind of ridiculous in this day and age,” said Whitehurst. “I’d rather think about skating to where the puck is gong to be than where it is now,” he said, using a hockey analogy. – Whitehurst	Mar 27 00:28
_Hicham_	http://boycottnovell.com//wp-ad…	Mar 27 00:28
schestowitz	Done. But pages are cached	Mar 27 00:29
_Hicham_	u should display a more scary message	Mar 27 00:29
schestowitz	That would annoy people	Mar 27 00:29
balzac	This is more of the “Cloud/Web 2.0″ hype that RMS is so tired of hearing about. It’s as old as Sun Microsystems with their thin-client hype from Scott McNealy. It’s a thinly veiled grab for control over users. It’s crap.	Mar 27 00:29
schestowitz	Especially those who are not in the choir whom we address	Mar 27 00:30
schestowitz	balzac: yes, exactly	Mar 27 00:30
balzac	Whitehurst needs to stop talking-down the GNU/Linux desktop, just for his control scheme.	Mar 27 00:30
_Hicham_	like drawing a red edge around the posts	Mar 27 00:30
schestowitz	Data AND software on vendor’s PCs	Mar 27 00:30
schestowitz	Like Google… they have your files AND can CHANGE your software at any time	Mar 27 00:30
balzac	He needs to be told SYFPH.	Mar 27 00:31
schestowitz	Like UPDATE you can’t control	Mar 27 00:31
schestowitz	Facebook users were furious over UI changes	Mar 27 00:31
schestowitz	Nothing they can do	Mar 27 00:31
schestowitz	Short of greasemonkey or something	Mar 27 00:31
balzac	yeah, these people don’t give a flying rat’s ass about computer user’s freedom and they’re no better than Steve Ballmer.	Mar 27 00:31
Balrog_	facebook did make some changes lately	Mar 27 00:31
_Hicham_	I don’t use the UI of Facebook	Mar 27 00:31
balzac	Whitehurst is an “open source” poseur and he needs to read Stallman’s Free Software, Free Society	Mar 27 00:32
Balrog_	they’re listening to public input for TOS	Mar 27 00:32
schestowitz	Most are using GNU/Linux for this	Mar 27 00:32
_Hicham_	I just use the IM	Mar 27 00:32
schestowitz	But no AGPL	Mar 27 00:32
_Hicham_	through Pidgin	Mar 27 00:32
schestowitz	Google give AGPL the finger	Mar 27 00:32
Balrog_	yeah, so do I	Mar 27 00:32
schestowitz	And you can’t get them to defned it	Mar 27 00:32
Balrog_	finch and adium	Mar 27 00:32
schestowitz	milkingthegnu tried it	Mar 27 00:32
balzac	And that is why I would be embarrassed to have RHCE certification.	Mar 27 00:32
schestowitz	he published his talk with Chris DiBona	Mar 27 00:32
_Hicham_	balzac : what is RHCE?	Mar 27 00:32
Balrog_	We’re planning on creating software at our university to fill a practical problem, and I’ll do whatever I can to make it AGPL	Mar 27 00:32
balzac	It would be like wearing a McDonalds hat. Would you like to super-size that?	Mar 27 00:33
oiaohm	Phone market dropping will force phone markers to look for other markets.	Mar 27 00:33
oiaohm	Ie nearest market is netbooks.	Mar 27 00:33
balzac	Red Hat Certified Engineer	Mar 27 00:33
balzac	something like that…	Mar 27 00:33
schestowitz	>something like that…	Mar 27 00:33
schestowitz	It’s a good thing it’s not an exam question	Mar 27 00:33
schestowitz	“what is the qualification you are here to receive..?”	Mar 27 00:34
balzac	Whitehurst maybe be marginally better than Hovespian, but it’s only because he has Tienman and cheif-ponytail/beard Alan Cox in his corner.	Mar 27 00:34
balzac	other than keeping those guys on staff, Whitehurst appears to be another Hovespian.	Mar 27 00:34
balzac	Am I wrong?	Mar 27 00:34
schestowitz	balzac: Cox moved to Intel	Mar 27 00:35
schestowitz	Cox supports GPLv3 BTW	Mar 27 00:35
balzac	Whitehurst probably stank him out of the company with his expedient, quarter-to-quarter profit-taking tactics.	Mar 27 00:35
balzac	Cox is the man	Mar 27 00:36
balzac	so is Tienman	Mar 27 00:36
balzac	but they can’t save Redhat from Whitehurst.	Mar 27 00:36
schestowitz	The TIME to ARM has come…. http://www.linuxdevices.com/news…	Mar 27 00:36
balzac	he’s the shot-caller and he doesn’t give a rat’s ass about software freedom, apparently.	Mar 27 00:36
schestowitz	I’m not sure	Mar 27 00:36
schestowitz	He uses an Ogg player	Mar 27 00:37
Balrog_	do you think that MS will port Windows to ARM for OLPC, as Negroponte wants?	Mar 27 00:37
schestowitz	He refused to buy a PMP without Ogg support	Mar 27 00:37
oiaohm	Balrog_ arm version of windows is very much like the PPC port.	Mar 27 00:37
balzac	A CEO is clever enough to make a gesture of idealism now and then.	Mar 27 00:37
schestowitz	Don’t compare him to Hovo Sapient	Mar 27 00:37
oiaohm	What is the point of having Windows on ARM if you don’t have the applications Balrog_	Mar 27 00:37
Balrog_	meaning rewrite all apps, right?	Mar 27 00:37
balzac	but Whitehurst is probably the guy who said to cuddle the Redhat logo with the Microsoft logo on that press-release.	Mar 27 00:37
balzac	he’s a Bill Gates suck-up.	Mar 27 00:38
oiaohm	PPC port of windows did not even have a MS office port Balrog_	Mar 27 00:38
schestowitz	Yeah, MS logo in redhat.com was bad…	Mar 27 00:38
schestowitz	I grabbed a screenie	Mar 27 00:38
schestowitz	Put it in BN	Mar 27 00:38
balzac	Whitehurst and Hovespian probably are in the same yacht club.	Mar 27 00:38
oiaohm	balzac what Whitehust has been doing is right for a long term plan.	Mar 27 00:39
oiaohm	Redhat really did not want to be attacked when they did not have there resources in order to fight back.	Mar 27 00:39
balzac	It’s bad for my business plans because I want to recommend Redhat instead of Novell.	Mar 27 00:39
balzac	how so, oiaohm?	Mar 27 00:40
oiaohm	Its a old business game. Play to be friendly.	Mar 27 00:40
oiaohm	Then the other side does not investate what you are really upto as much.	Mar 27 00:40
balzac	I figure, the choice for some clients is only between Redhat and Novell, because of their special relationship with multiple cpu mainframes.	Mar 27 00:40
oiaohm	Did redhat sign patent deals with Microsoft nop.	Mar 27 00:41
balzac	ok, valid point.	Mar 27 00:41
oiaohm	Have they done press releases that make them not look threating yes.	Mar 27 00:41
oiaohm	Its what you call playing friendly.	Mar 27 00:41
oiaohm	You don’t agree on the big stuff but you don’t look like you are out to get them.	Mar 27 00:41
balzac	Well, I guess I may recommend Redhat still, but I’m looking at Ubuntu and Debian.	Mar 27 00:41
oiaohm	So if they attack you they are the bad guy.	Mar 27 00:41
Balrog_	What about other rpm-based distros?	Mar 27 00:42
oiaohm	Yes Redhat does know what they are doing.	Mar 27 00:42
oiaohm	Its just really hard to work out at times.	Mar 27 00:42
_Hicham_	Debian remains the real free OS	Mar 27 00:42
schestowitz	balzac: Fedora/Red Hat is improving FOSS GPU drivers 4 u… http://www.tuxmachines.org/node/35343	Mar 27 00:43
schestowitz	Included by default in F11	Mar 27 00:43
_Hicham_	Roy : they don’t even support ATI	Mar 27 00:43
_Hicham_	there is no fglrx module in their repo	Mar 27 00:43
oiaohm	Fedora is a development arm.	Mar 27 00:44
balzac	Roy, they’re also the reason that Linux Kernel isn’t upgraded to GPLv3 because they can’t seem to concieve of a billing arrangement which doesn’t include DRM for managing the number of CPUs.	Mar 27 00:44
schestowitz	Proof?	Mar 27 00:44
schestowitz	Please?	Mar 27 00:44
balzac	Why doesn’t Redhat try a new method of collecting revenue, rather than restricting CPUs with DRM in the kernel?	Mar 27 00:44
balzac	well, I’m surmising this.	Mar 27 00:45
oiaohm	Redhat really does not.	Mar 27 00:45
balzac	if Linus were to upgrade to GPLv3, perhaps the NYSE deal couldn’t have happened.	Mar 27 00:45
oiaohm	I have run Redhats with standard kernels.	Mar 27 00:45
_Hicham_	oiaohm : and how do u compare it to other distros?	Mar 27 00:46
balzac	or it could have, but Redhat would have to find another way of getting income proportional from their clients other than by restricting CPUs with DRM.	Mar 27 00:46
oiaohm	The kernel from Redhat don’t use DRM to limit CPU.	Mar 27 00:46
oiaohm	Its standard kernel optmisation switches.	Mar 27 00:46
oiaohm	Yes Linux kernel can be built optmised for different numbers of CPU’s.	Mar 27 00:46
balzac	fedora won’t run on more than four cpus?	Mar 27 00:47
balzac	Redhat will run on many more?	Mar 27 00:47
oiaohm	I have run Fedora on 16 cpus	Mar 27 00:47
oiaohm	So it bull crap.	Mar 27 00:47
balzac	so you are in breach of copyright law or DMCA if you use an unlicensed redhat on a 16 cpu mainframe?	Mar 27 00:47
oiaohm	Its having the right optimised kernel so it performance	Mar 27 00:47
balzac	oiaohm: was my assertion correct at an earlier date?	Mar 27 00:48
balzac	can you run fedora on 32 cpus?	Mar 27 00:48
oiaohm	Nop Fedora is used in some suppers as well.	Mar 27 00:48
balzac	Maybe my info is out of date.	Mar 27 00:48
oiaohm	There is no limitation of the form you are defining.	Mar 27 00:48
balzac	legal penalties?	Mar 27 00:48
oiaohm	Nop.	Mar 27 00:48
oiaohm	Nothing.	Mar 27 00:48
balzac	why is it that I’m breaking the law if I run redhat without buying it?	Mar 27 00:48
oiaohm	You are not.	Mar 27 00:49
oiaohm	Fedora is not Redhat enterpises.	Mar 27 00:49
balzac	how am I breaking the law if I buy redhat, copy it, hand out. Redhat enterprise, not fedora.	Mar 27 00:49
oiaohm	Redhat enterpise has propirity closed source bits.	Mar 27 00:49
balzac	if I copy redhat enterprise, hand it to someone else, am I not breaking the law?	Mar 27 00:49
balzac	exactly what I’m talking about.	Mar 27 00:49
oiaohm	They are not kernel level.	Mar 27 00:49
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balzac	so, what do those proprietary bits do?	Mar 27 00:50
oiaohm	Mostly better configuration.	Mar 27 00:50
oiaohm	Some better codec support out box.	Mar 27 00:50
balzac	so why can’t Redhat try a more adult type of business model for extracting the revenue they’re due?	Mar 27 00:50
oiaohm	Also some programs are built with portland group complier.	Mar 27 00:51
balzac	it’s archaic and it’s not in the spirit of free software.	Mar 27 00:51
*Balrog_ (n=Balrog@pool-68-238-235-164.phil.east.verizon.net) has joined #boycottnovell		Mar 27 00:51
balzac	ick	Mar 27 00:51
_Hicham_	oiaohm : so RedHat doesn’t promote gcc that well?	Mar 27 00:51
oiaohm	portland group complier runs rings arround default gcc in performance.	Mar 27 00:51
balzac	so they’ve dangled their tea-bag into someone’s snare and how is that good?	Mar 27 00:51
Balrog_	no, you can copy redhat enterprise if you remove all redhat branding	Mar 27 00:51
*Balrog_ has quit (Client Quit)		Mar 27 00:52
oiaohm	and remove some parts that should not be shipped.	Mar 27 00:52
balzac	so why doesn’t portland group release their source code under a free or open source license?	Mar 27 00:52
_Hicham_	so CentOS/RHEL is just like Firefox/IceWesel?	Mar 27 00:52
balzac	Balrog: I can copy redhat, including the proprietary stuff, but without the branding?	Mar 27 00:52
balzac	CentOS has no cpu limitations?	Mar 27 00:53
oiaohm	CentOS no limitations.	Mar 27 00:53
balzac	but its compiled by portland group	Mar 27 00:53
balzac	well, it’s weaselry	Mar 27 00:53
oiaohm	Neither did http://www.whiteboxlinux.org/	Mar 27 00:53
oiaohm	What was basicaly a cleaned up redhat entterprise.	Mar 27 00:54
oiaohm	portland group is a really old complier maker. Dates back before gcc existed.	Mar 27 00:54
oiaohm	Gcc still has a lot of work todo before they catchup.	Mar 27 00:55
balzac	Well, it shakes my confidence in the Linux Kernel project when they’re coding for both gcc and portland group compilers, and their revenue comes from the companies selling portland-compiled binaries which are released.	Mar 27 00:56
oiaohm	Basically if you want to fork redhat enterprise nothing legally stops you.	Mar 27 00:56
balzac	It’s more of what I call the Linux-without-GNU trend.	Mar 27 00:56
oiaohm	No they code for gcc	Mar 27 00:56
balzac	Android as well	Mar 27 00:56
oiaohm	portland group complier has a translator from gcc to its own.	Mar 27 00:56
balzac	gcc is an after-thought, it sounds like.	Mar 27 00:56
oiaohm	They have been around the game for a long time.	Mar 27 00:57
balzac	so.	Mar 27 00:57
oiaohm	Remember every unix use to have there own complier.	Mar 27 00:57
oiaohm	To sell a high performance complier back then you needed translators.	Mar 27 00:57
balzac	screw the old proprietary unix.	Mar 27 00:57
oiaohm	That is where portland group comes from.	Mar 27 00:58
oiaohm	Gcc was badly designed from the start.	Mar 27 00:58
oiaohm	Work to fix Gcc design flaws is under way.	Mar 27 00:58
balzac	The license is quite nice.	Mar 27 00:58
_Hicham_	oiaohm : from RMS design?	Mar 27 00:58
oiaohm	Spliting linking and complier hand having linker with no optmiser that could work has been a major design flaw.	Mar 27 00:59
balzac	It’s technological materialism. Freedom is more important than efficiency.	Mar 27 00:59
oiaohm	So yes RMS design.	Mar 27 00:59
balzac	If everyone is a technological materialist and obsessed with efficiency, we’ll have techno-fascism in a dystopian science fiction future.	Mar 27 00:59
oiaohm	RMS copied other flawed designs of the day.	Mar 27 00:59
oiaohm	Missed the group that were kinda ahead.	Mar 27 00:59
oiaohm	Most likely because he did not have access to them.	Mar 27 01:00
_Hicham_	so it is just about link time optimization?	Mar 27 01:00
balzac	and guys like Hovespian and Ballmer will stick a tube in your ear and suck your cerebral-spinal fluid out directly.	Mar 27 01:00
oiaohm	link time optimization and thread optimisation.	Mar 27 01:00
oiaohm	portland group complier takes a single thread program and makes it use multiable cpus very well.	Mar 27 01:00
balzac	“Developers! Developers! Developers!” – it’s just like a zombie who says “Brains! Brains! Brains!”	Mar 27 01:00
_Hicham_	oiaohm : what do u think of PGO?	Mar 27 01:01
oiaohm	Its just the case portland group complier is one of the best on the market.	Mar 27 01:01
oiaohm	Ok costs but if you are one of the best in the market you get to charge for things.	Mar 27 01:01
balzac	these guys will psychologically emasculate you	Mar 27 01:01
_Hicham_	oiaohm : it is also the same price as MSVC	Mar 27 01:01
schestowitz	balzac: LOL @ developers =brains	Mar 27 01:01
balzac	Lessig is right, RMS is the philosopher of our age.	Mar 27 01:01
schestowitz	Mary Jo Foley has a series running with MS employees	Mar 27 01:02
oiaohm	MSVC is not the best for may things.	Mar 27 01:02
schestowitz	She calls them “big brains” Ha!	Mar 27 01:02
_Hicham_	oiaohm : u didn’t tell me about PGO	Mar 27 01:02
schestowitz	It doesn’t take a genius to seer away from crime	Mar 27 01:02
_Hicham_	the Profile Guided Optimization	Mar 27 01:02
oiaohm	MSVC may have link time but lack thead optmisation.	Mar 27 01:02
schestowitz	balzac: did Lessig say that?	Mar 27 01:02
_Hicham_	PGO was introduced with MSVC 2005	Mar 27 01:03
balzac	They don’t just want to subjugate your intellect with cognitive dissonance, they want to deplete your ego for the benefit of their own. Your testosterone goes down and you’re probably losing sperm-count as a result of psychological subjugation through software.	Mar 27 01:03
balzac	I was paraphrasing	Mar 27 01:03
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schestowitz	balzac: I was under the impressiob that lesig downplayed RMS	Mar 27 01:03
balzac	it’s in the blerb for Free Software Free Society	Mar 27 01:03
schestowitz	he didn’t believe GNU would succeed	Mar 27 01:03
schestowitz	He admitted he was wrong.. in 07/08	Mar 27 01:03
balzac	i think he saw the light	Mar 27 01:04
schestowitz	Yes	Mar 27 01:04
schestowitz	RMS also helps him	Mar 27 01:04
schestowitz	Copyright activism	Mar 27 01:04
schestowitz	Anti-DMCA and all that	Mar 27 01:04
oiaohm	Profile Guild also exists in llvm and portland groups. Problem here is that it does not cover thread breaking up.	Mar 27 01:04
schestowitz	RMS is multi-disciplinary	Mar 27 01:04
oiaohm	There are even ways to do Profile guided with gcc.	Mar 27 01:04
schestowitz	Also a politics buff	Mar 27 01:04
oiaohm	Profiling applications and altering optmisation was nothing new even when MS did it.	Mar 27 01:05
oiaohm	Linux kernel itself includes a lot of gcc control instructions based on profiling.	Mar 27 01:05
_Hicham_	does it help improve the speed ?	Mar 27 01:06
oiaohm	Speed for single cores or numbers of cores the application is designed for.	Mar 27 01:06
oiaohm	Thread optmisation will break up loops and the like into more threads so all cores get the load.	Mar 27 01:07
oiaohm	Something MSVC does not do.	Mar 27 01:07
_Hicham_	does OpenMP help with that?	Mar 27 01:07
oiaohm	OpenMP requires coder to mark the locations.	Mar 27 01:07
_Hicham_	I know, I have seen some examples	Mar 27 01:08
oiaohm	Complier that does thread optimisation you don’t have to mark anything.	Mar 27 01:08
_Hicham_	didn’t really work with it	Mar 27 01:08
oiaohm	It works out where OpenMP alterations can be done for you.	Mar 27 01:08
_Hicham_	so with thread optimization OpenMP is useless?	Mar 27 01:08
oiaohm	No coder does not need to worry about OpenMP	Mar 27 01:08
oiaohm	Complier worries about it for him.	Mar 27 01:09
oiaohm	Really handy when you have a stack of programms single threaded you need multithread.	Mar 27 01:09
oiaohm	So they perform.	Mar 27 01:09
_Hicham_	so why not work on compiler multithreading optimization instead of OpenMP?	Mar 27 01:10
oiaohm	Mostly intercommunication.	Mar 27 01:10
oiaohm	So if sections of program has been OpenMP coverted you don’t blow you feet off.	Mar 27 01:11
oiaohm	By making non OpenMP sections multithread.	Mar 27 01:11
oiaohm	Basically portland group has a good selling point at this time.	Mar 27 01:12
oiaohm	http://msdn.microsoft.com/en-us/l… Also be aware that PGO is basically pointless on AMD64 processes.	Mar 27 01:14
oiaohm	CPU is designed to cope jumping around in memory quicky.	Mar 27 01:14
oiaohm	Yes I know quite a few people who try profile guide mode in MSVC on AMD64 and cannot work out why it does jack. Yet on a intel processor it does give a performance boost.	Mar 27 01:16
oiaohm	You have to think of amd chip as designed like a rally car and the intel designed like a drag racer.	Mar 27 01:18
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balzac	I’ve ranted pretty badly tonight. I think I should acknowledge that Mr. Whitehurst and even whats-her-name, Carly Fiorini from HP deserve some appreciation for the Redhat/NYSE deal. It’s worth a lot for GNU/Linux to be in that position.	Mar 27 01:21
balzac	but I’m just unhappy with the amount of funding for FSF and GNU, while all these big corporate open source fat-cats are rolling in cash.	Mar 27 01:22
oiaohm	FSF and GNU does get some funding from them.	Mar 27 01:22
oiaohm	Lot of cases its freehardware.	Mar 27 01:22
oiaohm	Or other forms of support.	Mar 27 01:23
balzac	They don’t give enough appreciation for the “head-waters of prosperity” – the very modern license which is facilitating this new higher-level integration which was not possible with the archaic licenses.	Mar 27 01:23
oiaohm	Its bit like the first time Linux kernel.org said it need servers to say operating.	Mar 27 01:23
balzac	yeah, but it’s a pittance, oiaohm.	Mar 27 01:23
oiaohm	They got swamped.	Mar 27 01:23
balzac	compared to how they benefit from GNU licensing and GNU software.	Mar 27 01:23
balzac	it’s disproportionately small.	Mar 27 01:24
oiaohm	You have to remember lot of these firms give back souce code too.	Mar 27 01:24
balzac	liberty is the source of prosperity	Mar 27 01:24
oiaohm	Paying developers is not nothing.	Mar 27 01:24
oiaohm	Lots and lots of money does go into open source indirecty.	Mar 27 01:24
balzac	yeah, I know, but money is more liquid, and the FSF and GNU could use a lot more of it.	Mar 27 01:25
oiaohm	Redhat pays the maintainer that takes care of gcc even that they dont’ use it everywhere.	Mar 27 01:25
balzac	direct funding is severely lacking.	Mar 27 01:25
oiaohm	Linux Foundation gets a lot of direct funding.	Mar 27 01:25
oiaohm	GNU and FSF sometimes anti closed source has kept some funding away from them.	Mar 27 01:26
balzac	yeah, but look at how Linux is trending away from GNU – no GCC for the eterprise, no GNU user-space for android.	Mar 27 01:26
oiaohm	Gcc will return for enterpise when it good enough.	Mar 27 01:26
balzac	that’s why I’m hoping the Hurd will get more developers.	Mar 27 01:27
oiaohm	Redhat would not be funding developers if that was not there plan.	Mar 27 01:27
oiaohm	No gnu userspace in android. Thinking gnu userspace was just a system matic clone of Unix.	Mar 27 01:28
balzac	oiaohm: or it will be neglected and we’ll just have to buy hardware from CPU-makers who don’t favor the proprietary software ideologues.	Mar 27 01:28
oiaohm	Really android is the first true framework purely design with the idea of running on Linux.	Mar 27 01:28
oiaohm	Not a clone of something else.	Mar 27 01:28
balzac	low end cpus are fine with me. I don’t need to run a stock-exchange or play the latest Crysis	Mar 27 01:28
oiaohm	Its really a sign of Linux kernel entering maturity.	Mar 27 01:29
oiaohm	When people are game to take it on completely new paths.	Mar 27 01:29
balzac	The Linux Kernel’s coming of age doesn’t make me very sentimental if there’s no appreciation for GNU, and no move towards more modern kernel design.	Mar 27 01:30
oiaohm	Linux kernel intrenals are changing.	Mar 27 01:30
balzac	yeah, but not necessarily for the betterment of everyone.	Mar 27 01:30
oiaohm	So yes it is becoming way more modern.	Mar 27 01:30
oiaohm	Really it is for the betterment of everyone.	Mar 27 01:31
balzac	more efficient with high-end hardware partners, but not more elegant or intelligent in the fundamental design.	Mar 27 01:31
oiaohm	What happened if Linux did win the software war and GNU was the only stack on it.	Mar 27 01:31
oiaohm	How can you say stagmentation.	Mar 27 01:32
oiaohm	same fault effected Unix for years.	Mar 27 01:32
oiaohm	Android is not a bad thing really.	Mar 27 01:32
balzac	stagnation – ancient macro-kernel design which is basically a clone of proprietary unix kernels.	Mar 27 01:32
oiaohm	It has people thinking about upper level design.	Mar 27 01:33
balzac	I’m not saying it’s bad, but it may be a part of a bad trend of neglecting more fundamentally and historically important projects.	Mar 27 01:33
oiaohm	Do you remember Xerox R&D that lead today.	Mar 27 01:33
balzac	I’m going to buy a T-Mobile G1 and jail-break it.	Mar 27 01:33
oiaohm	You don’t find much of it in current day systems.	Mar 27 01:34
balzac	I’ll also keep recommending Redhat for really high-end clients, if I should get a consulting gig at that level.	Mar 27 01:34
oiaohm	GNU project could end up the same.	Mar 27 01:34
oiaohm	They proved the path that open source could work.	Mar 27 01:34
balzac	oiaohm: I bet that won’t happen. The GNU project is golden.	Mar 27 01:34
oiaohm	Now others many take Open Souce in completely new directions.	Mar 27 01:35
oiaohm	creditionals patch that just went into Linux does allow for Linux in time to run a secuirty system that is not posix.	Mar 27 01:35
balzac	GNU has timeless principles enshrined. the GNU GPL pre-amble is a historically-significant peice of work, not a “flash in the pan” like a technological fad.	Mar 27 01:35
oiaohm	Yes nothing posix releated.	Mar 27 01:35
balzac	GNU is the strongest brand in software.	Mar 27 01:35
oiaohm	Does not matter how strong a brand is.	Mar 27 01:36
oiaohm	If time moves on time moves on.	Mar 27 01:36
balzac	There’s a reason it’s the strongest brand – it has the most ideological integrity.	Mar 27 01:36
oiaohm	GNU will remain like the X symbol of X11 that is based of Xerox first logo with a line threw it for not Xerox	Mar 27 01:37
balzac	oiaohm: maybe times will leave you feeling like an old technologist who is dated, who missed the boat some day.	Mar 27 01:37
oiaohm	In time people might forget what it was.	Mar 27 01:37
_Hicham_	and companies are sponsoring GNU	Mar 27 01:37
balzac	better think about your legacy and don’t embrace techno-fads at the expense of staying relevant	Mar 27 01:37
balzac	oiaohm: it almost sounds like you wish it would happen.	Mar 27 01:38
balzac	what is your opinion of the preamble of the GNU-GPL?	Mar 27 01:38
_Hicham_	new tech doesn’t improve productivity forcibly	Mar 27 01:38
oiaohm	I have seen enough stuff come and go.	Mar 27 01:38
balzac	What’s your opinion of the GNU Manifesto? Have you read free software, free society?	Mar 27 01:38
oiaohm	To know by now GNU has been a key event.	Mar 27 01:38
oiaohm	But in the last few years name key things GNU has done.	Mar 27 01:39
balzac	it’s called intellectual materialism when you cling to information.	Mar 27 01:39
oiaohm	How many new project have joined the gnu project	Mar 27 01:39
oiaohm	This is the problem its got itself into stagnation.	Mar 27 01:39
_Hicham_	oiaohm : a lot	Mar 27 01:39
oiaohm	Not licence _Hicham_	Mar 27 01:40
balzac	oiaohm: it’s an on-going legacy of un-bowed, un-compromised freedom.	Mar 27 01:40
oiaohm	The core gnu project.	Mar 27 01:40
balzac	and I rely on the software every day.	Mar 27 01:40
_Hicham_	GNU project lacks one things	Mar 27 01:40
_Hicham_	one thing	Mar 27 01:40
_Hicham_	an Operating System	Mar 27 01:40
oiaohm	It lacks a lot more.	Mar 27 01:40
_Hicham_	oiaohm : what does it lack?	Mar 27 01:41
oiaohm	Exactly what reason did google build android.	Mar 27 01:41
balzac	Linux is still licensed under GPLv2, last I checked.	Mar 27 01:41
balzac	Every copy of Android carries the GNU GPL preamble.	Mar 27 01:41
oiaohm	Linux kernel is not part of the GNU project balzac	Mar 27 01:42
oiaohm	This is what I am getting at.	Mar 27 01:42
balzac	so, that is why GNU is the strongest brand in software – it has timeless principles which are being distributed with every copy of every gnu-licensed package.	Mar 27 01:42
oiaohm	GNU project the hart of GNU is basically dieing. When it first started it was inoviation.	Mar 27 01:42
balzac	Even Chrome and Safari are spreading the gospel of free software.	Mar 27 01:42
oiaohm	emacs from there was the first all in 1 supper tool.	Mar 27 01:43
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balzac	Even Novell’s patent-trojan GNU/Linux is spreading the preamble.	Mar 27 01:43
oiaohm	The simple inovation bit of GNU has gone.	Mar 27 01:43
oiaohm	Now other parties are using the licences.	Mar 27 01:43
_Hicham_	GNU isn’t dying oiaohm	Mar 27 01:43
oiaohm	The licence wil not die.	Mar 27 01:43
balzac	oiaohm: I disagree. You’re totally missing the boat.	Mar 27 01:43
_Hicham_	it is still fighting	Mar 27 01:43
oiaohm	The relievents of the core GNU Project could.	Mar 27 01:44
balzac	it’s not merely fighting, it’s spreading like all over the world.	Mar 27 01:44
_Hicham_	look at the GNU Software Database	Mar 27 01:44
_Hicham_	and u say that no software joined GNU?	Mar 27 01:44
oiaohm	Its like busybox it has a place in embed market because the default runtime provide by the gnu project is massivally bloated.	Mar 27 01:44
balzac	Linux is an ox which is pulling a chariot with a GNU riding in the back.	Mar 27 01:44
oiaohm	The main project of GNU basically has bit rot.	Mar 27 01:45
schestowitz	balzac: see http://boycottnovell.com/2009/03/24/the…	Mar 27 01:45
balzac	ok, it’s a penguin, a very large and powerful Emperor penguin, but every where it waddles, it pulls the GNU’s chariot.	Mar 27 01:45
oiaohm	GNU project was not chosen as the base of Android because it needs work.	Mar 27 01:46
oiaohm	Its really bad when it simple to create a complete new framework than clean something up.	Mar 27 01:46
oiaohm	GNU project has lost there way. Its not over for them.	Mar 27 01:47
balzac	oiaohm: you’ve lost your way. it’s not over for you.	Mar 27 01:47
_Hicham_	Roy : u r two pictures are confusing	Mar 27 01:47
oiaohm	Just been in coreutils and other things balzac	Mar 27 01:47
oiaohm	They are code vial	Mar 27 01:47
balzac	BASH is the top shell, although bourn-shell is the standard for shell script compatibility.	Mar 27 01:48
balzac	Roy, I’m wondering if Dan O’Brien is a pseudonym.	Mar 27 01:48
balzac	Roy, I’m wondering if Dan O’Brian is a pseudonym.	Mar 27 01:48
balzac	sorry for the double post	Mar 27 01:48
oiaohm	Even the internals of bash are not as clean as they should be balzac	Mar 27 01:49
balzac	oiaohm: perfection is not my obsession	Mar 27 01:49
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oiaohm	The lack of perfection created the android event and will most likely create more.	Mar 27 01:49
balzac	oiaohm: you can quit criticizing GNU software and contribute if you care to.	Mar 27 01:49
balzac	What’s your OS? What’s your shell? How many GPL-licensed processes are running on your machine right now?	Mar 27 01:50
oiaohm	Many patches I have submited to sort out coreutils were rejected on the grounds that core untils could not be turned into a single lib with small stubs.	Mar 27 01:50
oiaohm	There are many functions in core untils that do basically the same things.	Mar 27 01:51
oiaohm	other than minor option alterations.	Mar 27 01:51
_Hicham_	oiaohm : u should be more realistic	Mar 27 01:51
_Hicham_	oiaohm : polymorphism in C	Mar 27 01:51
oiaohm	Done that.	Mar 27 01:52
oiaohm	Not that bad really _Hicham_	Mar 27 01:52
oiaohm	The total difference between some of the core until programs is 4 lines of code in some cases.	Mar 27 01:52
oiaohm	2 lines being the help and what the application is.	Mar 27 01:52
oiaohm	So only 2 lines of active code difference.	Mar 27 01:53
oiaohm	yes complete bloat.	Mar 27 01:53
balzac	Access to the official GNU repositories is something earned not only by technological proficiency, but also by commitment to the principles the project was founded on.	Mar 27 01:53
balzac	I’ll take code which is good enough under a free license over awesome code under a license which takes my freedom.	Mar 27 01:54
oiaohm	More on commitment to principles the project was founded on than providing a good working product.	Mar 27 01:54
_Hicham_	oiaohm : u have to deal with legacy programs	Mar 27 01:55
_Hicham_	it is not very easy	Mar 27 01:55
balzac	as it should be	Mar 27 01:55
oiaohm	I do have to deal with legacy programs.	Mar 27 01:55
oiaohm	The messier the code the harder it is to mainatain.	Mar 27 01:55
balzac	you used a revealing word: “product”	Mar 27 01:55
oiaohm	The more errors you get.	Mar 27 01:55
oiaohm	More future legacy problems you cause.	Mar 27 01:56
oiaohm	Basically gnu is in a self caused downwards spiral.	Mar 27 01:56
_Hicham_	http://www.gravatar.com/avatar.php?gr…	Mar 27 01:57
oiaohm	It was lack of quality controls that also got GCC into a major internal mess.	Mar 27 01:57
_Hicham_	http://boycottnovell.com/images/S…	Mar 27 01:57
balzac	oiaohm: maybe you should consider a PR job at Microsoft. You could write some really technologically-informed propaganda for them.	Mar 27 01:57
_Hicham_	is it Roy on both pictures?	Mar 27 01:57
oiaohm	I am truthful that would be my problem balzac	Mar 27 01:57
oiaohm	I would rip MS appart equally.	Mar 27 01:57
oiaohm	And I do.	Mar 27 01:58
oiaohm	This is my problem I don’t just hate 1 OS.	Mar 27 01:58
oiaohm	I hate something in them all.	Mar 27 01:58
balzac	well, your priorities are not mine, and I wouldn’t trade your technological knowledge for my principles.	Mar 27 01:58
oiaohm	My principles is truthful allows you to see way forwards.	Mar 27 01:59
_Hicham_	oiaohm : mess is inevitable	Mar 27 01:59
balzac	what principle is that you’re referring to?	Mar 27 01:59
schestowitz	_Hicham_: yes	Mar 27 01:59
oiaohm	If people listern take the problems onboard they can be fix.	Mar 27 01:59
schestowitz	Lighting condisitions	Mar 27 01:59
_Hicham_	Roy : in one u r with gold hair, and the other with dark hair	Mar 27 01:59
oiaohm	Now if they let other principles get in the way of seeing problems.	Mar 27 01:59
oiaohm	That causes project deaths.	Mar 27 02:00
_Hicham_	in one u look younger, and the other older Roy	Mar 27 02:00
oiaohm	Ie android not to your key ideas of GNU. You have to ask why.	Mar 27 02:00
oiaohm	Its not like creating a new API set is simple.	Mar 27 02:00
balzac	oiaohm: you’re writing very subjectively. I don’t have to ask why because my attention is focused on something else completely from yours.	Mar 27 02:00
_Hicham_	oiaohm : u have to deal with messy code	Mar 27 02:01
_Hicham_	oiaohm : and find hacks	Mar 27 02:01
oiaohm	Yes _Hicham_	Mar 27 02:01
balzac	I’d suggest you put a little attention on the “software” which is between your ears.	Mar 27 02:01
_Hicham_	oiaohm : that is how things go	Mar 27 02:01
oiaohm	Find and repair work I do a lot.	Mar 27 02:01
_Hicham_	oiaohm : like data recovery	Mar 27 02:01
oiaohm	Yep	Mar 27 02:01
oiaohm	Gives me a way different point of view.	Mar 27 02:02
oiaohm	Idologies really don’t have a place in me. Like being pro gnu pro MS pro Linux pro mac. Open Source make logical sence from a data recovery point of view.	Mar 27 02:03
_Hicham_	oiaohm : explain more	Mar 27 02:03
balzac	sure you have ideology at work	Mar 27 02:03
_Hicham_	oiaohm : what does open source to do with data recovery?	Mar 27 02:04
oiaohm	In 100 years time you find a file. If you have the source code to the application that created you can use that source code to make a new program that reads that file on the OS of the time.	Mar 27 02:04
oiaohm	Open Source opens up access over the longer term.	Mar 27 02:04
oiaohm	Closed source program same event you can have some major troubles.	Mar 27 02:05
balzac	I appreciate the value of BSD-style licenses	Mar 27 02:05
oiaohm	I see thing logically too. BSD licences did not help Freebsd and the like develop	Mar 27 02:05
_Hicham_	closed source legacy programs are hard to manipulate also	Mar 27 02:06
balzac	I appreciate code which is distributed without any license at all	Mar 27 02:06
oiaohm	There is a neigitve side to that.	Mar 27 02:06
oiaohm	People using the code don’t have to mainatain it balzac for everyone else.	Mar 27 02:06
balzac	but I definitely appreciate the value of the copyleft for enshrining the message of liberty in a self-perpetuating license, spreading freedom among all derivatives.	Mar 27 02:07
balzac	that’s a great and historical thing.	Mar 27 02:07
balzac	I appreciate the choice to keep code to yourself, if you so choose	Mar 27 02:07
balzac	but I don’t appreciate the scorched-earth campaign against freedom waged by the proprietary software giants.	Mar 27 02:08
balzac	Thank goodness for the GNU project.	Mar 27 02:08
oiaohm	Can you see where we differ. balzac I more look at a overview of what is going on, What caused it, and where it could be going	Mar 27 02:08
oiaohm	Currently GNU project still has time to react.	Mar 27 02:08
balzac	no need	Mar 27 02:09
balzac	let others react to GNU actions	Mar 27 02:09
oiaohm	Said thing would be if GNU came nother more than a licence provider.	Mar 27 02:09
balzac	that’s funny	Mar 27 02:10
oiaohm	Opps	Mar 27 02:10
oiaohm	nother nothing other	Mar 27 02:10
balzac	not the typo but what you meant to say	Mar 27 02:10
oiaohm	Hmm have not done that in a while word merge.	Mar 27 02:10
balzac	why would I quit using Bash?	Mar 27 02:11
balzac	Emacs?	Mar 27 02:11
oiaohm	Its like all things.	Mar 27 02:11
oiaohm	Better tools and solutions can appear in time.	Mar 27 02:11
balzac	Why wouldn’t I keep using screen, and all the gnu versions of grep, awk, sed, ed, vim, etc ?	Mar 27 02:11
balzac	yeah, and maybe I’ll make them myself.	Mar 27 02:12
oiaohm	ed most people dont use.	Mar 27 02:12
balzac	I just used it.	Mar 27 02:12
balzac	a guy in #bash gave me a cool peice of code to use which uses ed	Mar 27 02:12
schestowitz	Catch you tomorrow	Mar 27 02:13
balzac	exactly according to my specifications in just a couple of minutes	Mar 27 02:13
balzac	ttyl schestowitz	Mar 27 02:13
_Hicham_	Roy : are u leaving?	Mar 27 02:13
oiaohm	http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/BusyBox <<notice what busybox covers balzac	Mar 27 02:14
balzac	oiaohm: if these better tools don’t have a license which keeps a strong community of free users, I won’t bother with them.	Mar 27 02:14
balzac	I might clone their better features and put it under a better license.	Mar 27 02:14
oiaohm	less size on disk and in memory equal function.	Mar 27 02:14
oiaohm	That is the issue.	Mar 27 02:14
balzac	but then the thought police will come after me	Mar 27 02:14
balzac	“You can’t have my idea. I patented that and now I’m going to lock you up!”	Mar 27 02:15
balzac	that idea belongs to me! don’t think that!	Mar 27 02:15
oiaohm	GNU project has a lot of tools. But it is really lacking quaility.	Mar 27 02:15
oiaohm	So leaving it open to be broken up by forking.	Mar 27 02:15
balzac	oiaohm: so I take it you’re running Solaris?	Mar 27 02:16
balzac	or AIX?	Mar 27 02:16
balzac	Apple?	Mar 27 02:16
balzac	BSD?	Mar 27 02:16
oiaohm	Linux currently.	Mar 27 02:17
oiaohm	I do have to run Solaris as well.	Mar 27 02:17
balzac	GNU and Linux or just android?	Mar 27 02:17
oiaohm	Lot of GNU project parts are no on this machine.	Mar 27 02:18
oiaohm	Mostly because its optmised to embeded development.	Mar 27 02:18
balzac	what shell?	Mar 27 02:18
oiaohm	ash	Mar 27 02:18
oiaohm	To be correct ash in bussbox.	Mar 27 02:18
oiaohm	busybox	Mar 27 02:18
balzac	is your ash gnu-licensed?	Mar 27 02:19
oiaohm	Yes	Mar 27 02:19
balzac	hmm	Mar 27 02:19
oiaohm	I have no problem with the GNU licence.	Mar 27 02:20
_Hicham_	oiaohm : can I say that u don’t mix ethics with software?	Mar 27 02:20
balzac	so they benefit from the GNU license, spread the GNU brand, FSF name, and four freedoms message.	Mar 27 02:20
balzac	oiaohm: how big is the ash user community?	Mar 27 02:21
oiaohm	Embeded world huge balzac	Mar 27 02:21
balzac	that’s nice to know	Mar 27 02:21
balzac	maybe it has something to do with the license.	Mar 27 02:21
oiaohm	Because bash is too bloated to use on lot of devices.	Mar 27 02:21
balzac	cool, I’m happy to know about ash.	Mar 27 02:21
oiaohm	you find ash also in most initrds as well.	Mar 27 02:21
balzac	why not dash?	Mar 27 02:22
oiaohm	dash is ash expanded to support more bash stuff.	Mar 27 02:22
oiaohm	dash is not supported by bussybox.	Mar 27 02:22
oiaohm	So you cannot do complex things in a initrd like you can with busybox with just dash.	Mar 27 02:23
balzac	ok	Mar 27 02:23
balzac	well, I better get back to work	Mar 27 02:23
balzac	or I’ll die here in front of my computer	Mar 27 02:23
balzac	at the office	Mar 27 02:23
oiaohm	_Hicham_ I do have ethics. Just different ones.	Mar 27 02:24
oiaohm	My ethics are about the long term good of everyone.	Mar 27 02:24
oiaohm	idoligies don’t fit too well into that.	Mar 27 02:24
balzac	oiaohm: did you notice that I didn’t say BSD licenses are bad, or even keeping software to yourself is inherently bad?	Mar 27 02:24
oiaohm	I did before.	Mar 27 02:25
oiaohm	With the long term data recovery comemt.	Mar 27 02:25
oiaohm	That is the other thing I normally don’t repeat myself on things.	Mar 27 02:25
balzac	I’m just inclined to push back against thought-police, whether it’s software or those would restrict your freedom of speech, writing, or anything else which is inherently a natural right.	Mar 27 02:25
oiaohm	BSD licences are not bad but they way the are used are.	Mar 27 02:25
oiaohm	Difference here I am looking at long term good.	Mar 27 02:26
balzac	and what long term good is that?	Mar 27 02:26
balzac	BTW, I’m not sure we use the word “principle” to mean the same thing.	Mar 27 02:26
oiaohm	All freedom is always restricted.	Mar 27 02:27
oiaohm	Or you could kill who every you like.	Mar 27 02:27
_Hicham_	explain plz	Mar 27 02:27
balzac	“freedom isn’t free” is what he’s saying in other words	Mar 27 02:27
_Hicham_	what an analogy	Mar 27 02:27
balzac	freedom is free within the context of respecting other’s freedom	Mar 27 02:27
twitter	no, he’s saying that society needs to protect itself from predation.	Mar 27 02:27
oiaohm	Exactly.	Mar 27 02:27
oiaohm	Both are right here.	Mar 27 02:27
oiaohm	Closed source programs that take away a person right to access there data is not protecting freedom.	Mar 27 02:28
balzac	I gotta go	Mar 27 02:28
balzac	ttyl oiaohm, _Hicham_	Mar 27 02:28
oiaohm	Closed soure programs that alter protocal so others cannot use them is not freedom either.	Mar 27 02:28
oiaohm	see you around balzac	Mar 27 02:28
oiaohm	As you can see _Hicham_ there is ethics in me just different.	Mar 27 02:29
_Hicham_	keep up the good work balzac	Mar 27 02:29
twitter	non free software violates one of the four software freedoms by definition.	Mar 27 02:29
twitter	those freedoms boil down to being able to use your computer as you see fit and help your neighbor do the same	Mar 27 02:30
oiaohm	Mine are based heavy on the software freedoms.	Mar 27 02:30
_Hicham_	do u have a license proposition?	Mar 27 02:30
oiaohm	And those are required.	Mar 27 02:30
twitter	software freedom is integral to other freedoms	Mar 27 02:30
oiaohm	I have nothing against people using there own licences	Mar 27 02:31
twitter	software freedom can be violated, for example, by restricting people’s network freedom.	Mar 27 02:31
oiaohm	As long as they don’t encrouch on my freedoms.	Mar 27 02:31
balzac	twitter: non free software only violates the four freedoms if you have no choice not to use it.	Mar 27 02:31
twitter	encrouch, something related to tea bagging?	Mar 27 02:31
balzac	violation means your autonomy is being compromised	Mar 27 02:31
oiaohm	Of course if you don’t own the nework then the owner of the network can place restrictions is one of my differences to the software freedoms.	Mar 27 02:32
oiaohm	But that is more a respect of people properity.	Mar 27 02:32
balzac	to release proprietary software is not to violate someone else’s freedom, but to smother the world with a proprietary software monopoly does violate other’s autonomy and freedom.	Mar 27 02:32
twitter	makers of non free software can violate your software freedom by making it impossible for you to run any software	Mar 27 02:32
twitter	ACPI is a good example of this	Mar 27 02:33
balzac	If I have to pay taxes, and the IRS.gov site requires activeX controls and IE, my autonomy is being violated, my freedom robbed.	Mar 27 02:33
twitter	networks are only useful if they are free and they gain their value by the number of people on them.	Mar 27 02:33
oiaohm	Open standard file formats really are more important to me than open source.	Mar 27 02:34
oiaohm	Yes I value data.	Mar 27 02:34
twitter	the only true private networks that exist are things like tin cans with strings. as soon as you connect your network to others, it becomes public because you have involved people and machines that are not under your control.	Mar 27 02:34
oiaohm	Its something people don’t understand lost data can kill.	Mar 27 02:35
twitter	When you spy on “your” employee’s communications, for example, you spy on someone else too.	Mar 27 02:35
oiaohm	Restrict is not spy.	Mar 27 02:36
oiaohm	Ie if the person cannot do it in the first place you don’t need to spy on them.	Mar 27 02:36
_Hicham_	oiaohm : twitter is not talking about that	Mar 27 02:37
_Hicham_	he is talking about spying	Mar 27 02:37
twitter	If your restrictions keep your users from sharing, you have robbed them of software freedom.	Mar 27 02:37
twitter	spying is only one example of things people mistakenly think they have a right to do to public networks.	Mar 27 02:37
_Hicham_	spying on the users visited websites for example	Mar 27 02:37
oiaohm	depends where they using your machine twitter	Mar 27 02:38
twitter	I’m not sure about that	Mar 27 02:38
oiaohm	If they are using your machine that is your properity is like allowing them to use anything else of yours.	Mar 27 02:38
balzac	twitter: I agree, to the extent that there isn’t choice, or incentives or coercive techniques are used to limit choice.	Mar 27 02:38
oiaohm	It a basic freedom people forget about.	Mar 27 02:38
twitter	how can you restrict if you don’t monitor?	Mar 27 02:38
twitter	isn’t monitoring just another word for spying?	Mar 27 02:38
oiaohm	monitoring by machine that blocks and does not keep logs	Mar 27 02:39
oiaohm	that is not spying.	Mar 27 02:39
twitter	an enlightened company won’t do any of these things, they will simply give employees tasks to do and judge performance based on the job getting done	Mar 27 02:39
oiaohm	Other is large network logs of visited blocked sides without users on machines.	Mar 27 02:40
balzac	twitter, if you make information available, you cannot take it back. information you don’t want to be available to those you don’t trust should not be made available to them.	Mar 27 02:40
twitter	the rest of it is an expensive waste of time	Mar 27 02:40
oiaohm	Not really.	Mar 27 02:40
balzac	But if all the ISPs are caching years of user data, and never to be deleted, freedom is being destroyed.	Mar 27 02:40
oiaohm	You will be supprised how many viruses and other bad malware can be prevent by blocking off particular sets of sites.	Mar 27 02:40
twitter	sharing restricted company information is a job function. in real cases, the results will be obvious.	Mar 27 02:40
oiaohm	There is a place for restrictions.	Mar 27 02:41
twitter	It’s a lot easier to block malware by not running Windows	Mar 27 02:41
balzac	much like in a city like Shenzen where you have cameras everywhere.	Mar 27 02:41
twitter	restrictions are expensive and must be fully justified. ”Windows is weak” is not a justification	Mar 27 02:41
oiaohm	Its like internal only projects planing for a contract	Mar 27 02:41
oiaohm	You don’t need to tell the cleaners in the company the information.	Mar 27 02:41
twitter	you don’t have to violate the cleaner’s software freedom to restrict that either	Mar 27 02:42
oiaohm	Information at times requires restrictions for the good of everyone.	Mar 27 02:42
oiaohm	Of course infomation incorrectly restricted causes harm.	Mar 27 02:42
balzac	twitter: I’m more aligned with your ideology	Mar 27 02:42
balzac	as far as I understand it	Mar 27 02:43
oiaohm	Its the balanicing act of business network management.	Mar 27 02:43
balzac	freedom is precious, so let’s not build a prison around ourselves.	Mar 27 02:43
balzac	ok, I’m out.	Mar 27 02:43
oiaohm	Funny enough open source also is better to build a restricting system from.	Mar 27 02:43
oiaohm	Since it can be audited.	Mar 27 02:43
twitter	if you are trying to keep company information safe by restricting desktops, you are lost. information should be restricted where it is stored.	Mar 27 02:43
twitter	yes, configuration control is useful for machine owners	Mar 27 02:44
oiaohm	I really treat software a lot like devices in the real world.	Mar 27 02:45
twitter	but the owner should be the employee, otherwise there’s no privacy or dignity in the workplace	Mar 27 02:45
oiaohm	That is the case in most cases.	Mar 27 02:46
oiaohm	System admins have all the access rights.	Mar 27 02:46
twitter	that’s not good, it will prevent employees from contributing as they could	Mar 27 02:46
twitter	it shows disrespect	Mar 27 02:46
oiaohm	And its the role of a system admin to keep secert anything they see they should not.	Mar 27 02:46
oiaohm	Yes some days it suxs.	Mar 27 02:47
oiaohm	You want to laugh at something funny you saw but you do you are fired for breach of privacy.	Mar 27 02:47
oiaohm	Its also the reason why system admins normally don’t eat with the rest of the staff.	Mar 27 02:47
twitter	Doctors eat with others	Mar 27 02:48
_Hicham_	this model of administration is old	Mar 27 02:48
twitter	they have much darker secrets	Mar 27 02:48
_Hicham_	oiaohm : this is anti-productive	Mar 27 02:48
_Hicham_	u can’t make people work in those conditions	Mar 27 02:48
_Hicham_	this is pure humiliation	Mar 27 02:48
twitter	the tension is between the need to fix a machine and the need for privacy.	Mar 27 02:48
twitter	you can’t expect all employees to manage their own desktops	Mar 27 02:49
_Hicham_	u don’t treat them like humans in this case	Mar 27 02:49
twitter	it is difficult to resolve but the user should be root	Mar 27 02:49
_Hicham_	maintainance is one thing and freedom is another	Mar 27 02:49
oiaohm	There is a reason why system admin and support person are two different people.	Mar 27 02:49
twitter	administrators should be given root access only for the time required to fix the machine and the user’s files should be encrypted	Mar 27 02:50
oiaohm	support person does not come into contact normally what they should not see.	Mar 27 02:50
twitter	encrypted in some way that root can not gain the token to read	Mar 27 02:50
oiaohm	encrypted can cause data loss.	Mar 27 02:50
twitter	lightning can cause data loss	Mar 27 02:51
oiaohm	Again twitter you are being idealisk.	Mar 27 02:51
oiaohm	Do you know how often people lose passwords.	Mar 27 02:51
twitter	how often do you look in your employee’s wallet?	Mar 27 02:51
oiaohm	Heck one guy even managed to loss his finger tip to access laptop.	Mar 27 02:51
oiaohm	Something you would think would be past loss.	Mar 27 02:52
oiaohm	Highly secure network user files are encrypted.	Mar 27 02:52
twitter	as things are, people are made “responsible” for their passwords, so you might as well make that password meaningful	Mar 27 02:53
oiaohm	But the keys to open them are in secure storage.	Mar 27 02:53
oiaohm	So yes incase of need system admin can access files.	Mar 27 02:53
oiaohm	You are underestmainting the importances of data twitter	Mar 27 02:53
twitter	you undervalue privacy and personal dignity.	Mar 27 02:54
twitter	gotta go, it was fun chatting	Mar 27 02:54
twitter	gn	Mar 27 02:54
oiaohm	Talking to non system admins always gives a different point of view.	Mar 27 02:55
oiaohm	The problem with privacy if you 100 percent value it. A company can go under. Data is the life blood of the company.	Mar 27 02:56
oiaohm	I am always open with the staff that nothing on the system should be private information of thiers that they don’t expect read by system admin at some point if things go wrong.	Mar 27 02:56
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tessier	schestowitz: Yes, I am looking forward to btrfs.	Mar 27 04:08
oiaohm	btrfs + containers could be kill combination.	Mar 27 04:09
tessier	Containers?	Mar 27 04:09
oiaohm	cgroups	Mar 27 04:09
tessier	cgroups?	Mar 27 04:09
oiaohm	Means to run more than 1 distribution on 1 kernel.	Mar 27 04:10
oiaohm	Even move running applications between machines.	Mar 27 04:10
oiaohm	http://beta.linuxfoundation.org/colla…	Mar 27 04:11
oiaohm	Verry powerful tech tessier	Mar 27 04:13
tessier	Neat. I had never heard of this before.	Mar 27 04:13
tessier	What would be a practical application?	Mar 27 04:13
tessier	Why wouldn’t you just full-on virtualize?	Mar 27 04:13
oiaohm	Containers also provide a level of fine control over system resourses in ways past what most people think.	Mar 27 04:14
oiaohm	Like means to suspend and resume groups of applications.	Mar 27 04:15
oiaohm	In theory you could like suspend your desktop when playing a game.	Mar 27 04:15
tessier	You would have to run the game in a different container then?	Mar 27 04:15
oiaohm	Yep.	Mar 27 04:15
oiaohm	Containers don’t have to have all features.	Mar 27 04:15
tessier	And somehow let different containers have access to the console hardware at different times. That’s tricky.	Mar 27 04:15
oiaohm	You can control like just memory and leave out the other controlling features.	Mar 27 04:16
oiaohm	Most fun one is network access control.	Mar 27 04:16
oiaohm	So you can decide by what containers they own to how much network access the applications get.	Mar 27 04:16
tessier	oops…I guess each container doesn’t get its own IP?	Mar 27 04:17
oiaohm	It does have to.	Mar 27 04:17
oiaohm	You can if you want.	Mar 27 04:17
oiaohm	Just like each container can have its own unique Process ID table if you want.	Mar 27 04:18
tessier	Is this the same idea as solaris zones?	Mar 27 04:18
oiaohm	solaris zones is the first form of container tech.	Mar 27 04:19
oiaohm	So yes very much like solaris zones	Mar 27 04:19
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oiaohm	With the alterations to X11 with DRI2 and KMS the options to do way more will be there since DRI2 and KMS opens up running two different version X11 servers inside each other.	Mar 27 04:20
tessier	Yes, I was just reading a little about KMS today. That is going to be nice.	Mar 27 04:21
oiaohm	Yep 1 kernel running every Linux Distribution known will become able to be done.	Mar 27 04:21
oiaohm	I expect it will cause a change in the Linux world. No longer will users have to choose 1 distribution and miss out on what the others offer.	Mar 27 04:22
tessier	I don’t see that as being really all that useful though.	Mar 27 04:22
oiaohm	containers don’t take performance hits.	Mar 27 04:23
oiaohm	Containers will in time enable users to suspend just there session and resume on another machine as well.	Mar 27 04:24
oiaohm	Some of btrfs features will be needed so containers can work well.	Mar 27 04:24
oiaohm	Particularly snapshotting.	Mar 27 04:25
tessier	Yes, snapshotting will be killer.	Mar 27 04:25
oiaohm	snapshotting + suspend groups of applications.	Mar 27 04:25
oiaohm	Nice combination.	Mar 27 04:26
oiaohm	Biggest problem with suspending groups of applications is disk getting out of alignment with when they were suspended.	Mar 27 04:26
tessier	out of alignment?	Mar 27 04:26
oiaohm	btrfs supports writable snapshots as well.	Mar 27 04:27
oiaohm	Some file operation happens on a file the application depends on being of particular contents tessier	Mar 27 04:27
oiaohm	Some when application is resumed and tries to get it bugger it stuffed.	Mar 27 04:27
tessier	ah, groups of applications, not the whole container.	Mar 27 04:27
tessier	I see.	Mar 27 04:28
tessier	Seems like that sort of thing could happen any time though.	Mar 27 04:28
tessier	If one app steps on another apps files…	Mar 27 04:28
oiaohm	When a application is running it can be holding locks on files.	Mar 27 04:28
oiaohm	So preventing being steped on.	Mar 27 04:28
oiaohm	Snapshotting steps in where you don’t have active locks. Also would allow multiable applications to be started up from the same suspended state.	Mar 27 04:29
oiaohm	Since you could always get a filesystem back that existed when the suspended state was created.	Mar 27 04:30
oiaohm	Yes snapshotting opens up a few more tricks.	Mar 27 04:30
oiaohm	Does the importance of btrfs writable snapshots make sence now tessier	Mar 27 04:33
tessier	Yes, I guess so. Although then it rather removes the distinction between what is a snap and what is the original fs.	Mar 27 04:34
tessier	Taking a snap before a major upgrade or change is something I have always wanted to be able to do.	Mar 27 04:35
tessier	Then the issue becomes how do you boot from the writeable snap or switch / over to it.	Mar 27 04:35
oiaohm	With containers and writeable snapshots you could in theory do a major upgrade and still be using the old OS.	Mar 27 04:35
oiaohm	The door to things that could not though of years ago is open.	Mar 27 04:36
tessier	Already in January Australian Terry Baume had written a short paper describing the psyb0t malware that was beginning to crop up in Linux systems.	Mar 27 04:41
tessier	http://www.linux-magazine.com/online/news/…	Mar 27 04:41
tessier	This concerns me.	Mar 27 04:41
tessier	Not that it really matters to Linux security.	Mar 27 04:41
tessier	But it hurts the Linux reputation for security.	Mar 27 04:41
oiaohm	Its not the first Linux infection.	Mar 27 04:42
tessier	Not but it seems to be the biggest.	Mar 27 04:42
tessier	s/Not/No/	Mar 27 04:42
oiaohm	Its not even the biggest.	Mar 27 04:42
tessier	At least now people can’t say Linux isn’t targeted because it is so small.	Mar 27 04:43
tessier	You pretty much have to go out of your way to get infected.	Mar 27 04:43
oiaohm	Biggest was a worm that had a anti worm sent after it.	Mar 27 04:43
oiaohm	The clean up worm was the cheese worm.	Mar 27 04:43
tessier	I’ve never known anyone who got any of these.	Mar 27 04:43
oiaohm	It would be funny if another cheese worm appears.	Mar 27 04:44
oiaohm	And cleans psyb0t up	Mar 27 04:44
oiaohm	Same thing caused it.	Mar 27 04:45
oiaohm	Over confendence in Linux Secuirty.	Mar 27 04:45
oiaohm	Linux is a secure OS if you set the bugger up right.	Mar 27 04:45
oiaohm	Running everything as root as most routers do is not setup right.	Mar 27 04:46
tessier	You have no choice but to run everything as root in that routers do nothing but route packets which all happens in the kernel.	Mar 27 04:48
oiaohm	The web interface to control them tessier?	Mar 27 04:48
tessier	The web interface isn’t being exploited.	Mar 27 04:48
tessier	An ssh or telnet on the WAN side with a default password is being exploited.	Mar 27 04:49
oiaohm	Again.	Mar 27 04:49
oiaohm	Normal production systems you don’t normally have root as a login.	Mar 27 04:49
oiaohm	From a remote source.	Mar 27 04:49
tessier	Right	Mar 27 04:50
oiaohm	Does not matter how you look at it major reason for the exploit is bad configuration.	Mar 27 04:50
tessier	Right	Mar 27 04:50
oiaohm	The embeded guys have been over due for a wake up call.	Mar 27 04:51
tessier	What can they do about this?	Mar 27 05:08
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