06.16.09
Case Study: The Harms of Mono
The following chat took place 2 hours ago. Someone who goes by the name “IsBob” shared his story. Here are the unedited logs, which are hopefully as self-explanatory as they need be. █
| *IsBob () has joined #boycottnovell | Jun 16 11:01 | |
| splosion | https://www.furk.net/ here | Jun 16 11:01 |
|---|---|---|
| IsBob | hi there | Jun 16 11:01 |
| DaemonMDV | you know that Ubuntu has used a DMCA Take Down order once? | Jun 16 11:02 |
| DaemonMDV | ironically it was used against the MPAA | Jun 16 11:02 |
| DaemonMDV | so I’m all for it | Jun 16 11:02 |
| *fewa has quit (Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)) | Jun 16 11:03 | |
| DaemonMDV | the MPAA was distributing a “University anti-piracy toolkit” which used Xubuntu as its base | Jun 16 11:03 |
| DaemonMDV | in violation of the GPL | Jun 16 11:03 |
| DaemonMDV | so Ubuntu ordered them to remove it from their site | Jun 16 11:03 |
| DaemonMDV | which they did | Jun 16 11:03 |
| IsBob | I’m looking for some advice | Jun 16 11:04 |
| IsBob | my boss asked me (not directly of course) to make some public statements about Mono | Jun 16 11:04 |
| IsBob | we’re in a deal with Microsoft currently | Jun 16 11:04 |
| IsBob | the idea is to help a client migrate from Mono to pure .NET | Jun 16 11:05 |
| IsBob | and well, they found the ongoing fuss about Mono is not helping our company’s image | Jun 16 11:05 |
| IsBob | the fact is, I’m not comfortable with doing such things | Jun 16 11:06 |
| schestowitz | Hi, IsBob | Jun 16 11:06 |
| schestowitz | What advice do you need? | Jun 16 11:07 |
| schestowitz | And how do I know that you’re not pulling our leg? | Jun 16 11:07 |
| IsBob | huh? | Jun 16 11:07 |
| schestowitz | We’ve been trolled a lot recently | Jun 16 11:07 |
| IsBob | My problem is, I’m in an untenable position now | Jun 16 11:07 |
| schestowitz | So I am being cautious | Jun 16 11:07 |
| schestowitz | A company using Mono does not have a problem | Jun 16 11:08 |
| IsBob | I’ve made some public statements about Mono and how Microsoft intends to use it | Jun 16 11:08 |
| schestowitz | Not in the sense of public image | Jun 16 11:08 |
| schestowitz | The issue is with packagers who want to force people to spread it | Jun 16 11:08 |
| schestowitz | Not with users | Jun 16 11:08 |
| IsBob | and now, either I have to rescind them, or I risk being in a very bad position with my management | Jun 16 11:08 |
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| schestowitz | Microsoft spreads its API | Jun 16 11:09 |
| schestowitz | Mono is good for Microsoft | Jun 16 11:09 |
| schestowitz | For more than one reason | Jun 16 11:09 |
| IsBob | I know all of that, I’ve seen it from the inside | Jun 16 11:09 |
| schestowitz | it is preferable to use Java, Python, Perl, CGI, etc. | Jun 16 11:09 |
| schestowitz | Depending on the area of use | Jun 16 11:09 |
| schestowitz | Mono is about monoculture | Jun 16 11:09 |
| schestowitz | Making all enterprise do it the One Microsoft Way | Jun 16 11:10 |
| schestowitz | c#, AD, VS, XAML, erc. | Jun 16 11:10 |
| schestowitz | *etc | Jun 16 11:10 |
| *oiaohm (n=oiaohm@unaffiliated/oiaohm) has joined #boycottnovell | Jun 16 11:10 | |
| schestowitz | Hi, oiaohm | Jun 16 11:12 |
| IsBob | schestowitz: I’ve tried to explain that to my management; we used to have our clients work on free software, and now we’re stuck in a deal where we’re making them migrate away | Jun 16 11:14 |
| oiaohm | Hi schestowitz | Jun 16 11:15 |
| schestowitz | IsBob: how deep is this dependency on Mono? | Jun 16 11:16 |
| *Tallken (n=f2f93bf5@2001:690:2380:7770:21b:24ff:fed0:3f98) has joined #boycottnovell | Jun 16 11:17 | |
| schestowitz | If it’s some C# code, then you can still port to Java | Jun 16 11:17 |
| schestowitz | Oracle is very committed to Java | Jun 16 11:17 |
| schestowitz | It’s one of the main reasons for oracle buying SUN. I read last year that Ellison wanted to rip .NET apart | Jun 16 11:17 |
| IsBob | there are 500 kloc already, it’s way too late to migrate to another language | Jun 16 11:18 |
| schestowitz | Oracle is about as big as Microsoft and its market cap is not muchly shy. In fact, Oracle just deliberately spends a lot less on marketing… | Jun 16 11:18 |
| IsBob | but anyway, that’s not my problem right now | Jun 16 11:18 |
| schestowitz | IsBob: what’s running it? Mono? | Jun 16 11:19 |
| schestowitz | Mono is a ramp for VS+.NET adoption | Jun 16 11:19 |
| schestowitz | Mono too slow? | Jun 16 11:19 |
| schestowitz | Migrate to .NET | Jun 16 11:19 |
| schestowitz | Like free supper | Jun 16 11:19 |
| IsBob | currently Mono, and we’re migrating to .Net yes | Jun 16 11:19 |
| schestowitz | Or trial versionware | Jun 16 11:19 |
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| schestowitz | Oracle might do something similar with mysql | Jun 16 11:19 |
| IsBob | my problem is about my management wanting me to do public statements I disagree with | Jun 16 11:20 |
| schestowitz | Why migrate to .NET? I’m curious. | Jun 16 11:20 |
| oiaohm | IsBob: remember this year websites that can run ofline is coming. | Jun 16 11:20 |
| IsBob | I’m not sure why, since M$ made a deal with our client they’ve been pretty elusive about that | Jun 16 11:21 |
| oiaohm | I am looking at it for a lot of client side work internal. OS netural and will need nothering more than a Upto date webbrowser installed. | Jun 16 11:21 |
| IsBob | one of my co-workers suspects they paid a big trip to Hawaii for some of the managers of our client | Jun 16 11:21 |
| schestowitz | IsBob: so you think they might come to them and say “look, you’re using our IP and all, so either you pay or move to .NET?” | Jun 16 11:21 |
| schestowitz | IsBob: yes, Microsoft gifts people | Jun 16 11:22 |
| schestowitz | It’s a form of bribe | Jun 16 11:22 |
| IsBob | clearly | Jun 16 11:22 |
| schestowitz | Common. Many examples in MS’c ase | Jun 16 11:22 |
| schestowitz | *MS’s | Jun 16 11:22 |
| IsBob | I don’t think they might do it, i think they already did | Jun 16 11:22 |
| schestowitz | Mono is a ramp | Jun 16 11:22 |
| IsBob | assorted with a nice “gift” | Jun 16 11:22 |
| oiaohm | You are aware as of yet mono does not work on arm and mips. | Jun 16 11:22 |
| schestowitz | had they used Java, migration would be complicated | Jun 16 11:22 |
| schestowitz | But this is EEE – embrace, extend… | Jun 16 11:23 |
| oiaohm | So clients are being locked out of furture more power effective client options IsBob | Jun 16 11:23 |
| oiaohm | There are technical issues with mono. | Jun 16 11:23 |
| oiaohm | That can be targetted avoiding the complete IP issue. | Jun 16 11:24 |
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| DaemonMDV | http://www.macworld.com/article/137… | Jun 16 11:24 |
| DaemonMDV | The guy buys 2,419 DRM’d 129k tracks | Jun 16 11:25 |
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| IsBob | my N+2 ordered a complete blackout about what happened, and we’re strongly “encouraged” to publish things that will increase Mono’s acceptance | Jun 16 11:25 |
| DaemonMDV | then complains that he was cheated when Apple wants more money to upgrade him to what he should have had in the first place | Jun 16 11:25 |
| DaemonMDV | (256k no DRM) | Jun 16 11:25 |
| schestowitz | IsBob: encouraged by whom? | Jun 16 11:25 |
| schestowitz | Novell? Microsoft? | Jun 16 11:26 |
| IsBob | by our management | Jun 16 11:26 |
| DaemonMDV | dear god, if he has $2500 to spend on iTunes tracks, you’d think 30 cents apiece would be easy to fork over | Jun 16 11:26 |
| DaemonMDV | |
Jun 16 11:26 |
| IsBob | not sure who’s behind | Jun 16 11:26 |
| IsBob | of course we already have a big contract with Novell | Jun 16 11:26 |
| schestowitz | It’s the same with MS/Novell cotnracts | Jun 16 11:26 |
| schestowitz | I know cause I was told | Jun 16 11:26 |
| IsBob | and they probably don’t want to have to renegociate it | Jun 16 11:26 |
| schestowitz | They go to clients… | Jun 16 11:26 |
| splosion | be a whistleblower. this is the sort of thing wikileaks was invented for | Jun 16 11:26 |
| schestowitz | And they tell them to put “IP” in the press releases | Jun 16 11:26 |
| schestowitz | As in, we’ll sell you SUSE coupons at a discount is you publicly promote these | Jun 16 11:27 |
| DaemonMDV | yeah, of course you will no doubt be fired if they figure out it was you | Jun 16 11:27 |
| schestowitz | I.e. promote ‘Linux tax’ (MS patents | Jun 16 11:27 |
| IsBob | splosion: I’m pretty sure I could be identified very quickly if anything leaks | Jun 16 11:27 |
| schestowitz | For a bribe | Jun 16 11:27 |
| DaemonMDV | (goes without saying) | Jun 16 11:27 |
| IsBob | I already made some statements against Mono and M$ in the past | Jun 16 11:27 |
| oiaohm | Does not matter really IsBob. IBM is gearing up to go after the Small business market with Linux. | Jun 16 11:27 |
| schestowitz | splosion: +1 | Jun 16 11:27 |
| splosion | IsBob: bummer | Jun 16 11:27 |
| DaemonMDV | Easy URPMI is still not back up | Jun 16 11:28 |
| DaemonMDV | odd | Jun 16 11:28 |
| oiaohm | Basically your bosses should be asking who is going to win. IBM and Orcale or MS. | Jun 16 11:28 |
| DaemonMDV | but shows how much people depend on less than legal stuff | Jun 16 11:28 |
| DaemonMDV | frankly it kind of sickens me that Vorbis is free and hardly anything uses it | Jun 16 11:29 |
| schestowitz | So basically, Microsoft lets Linux embrace .NET | Jun 16 11:29 |
| schestowitz | Then it can start shouting “IP” and “thieves” and offer .NET (Windows only) | Jun 16 11:29 |
| schestowitz | It’s so predictable | Jun 16 11:29 |
| oiaohm | Both Orcale and IBM have cards in play schestowitz. | Jun 16 11:29 |
| oiaohm | As with all battles there are some wins and some losses. | Jun 16 11:30 |
| DaemonMDV | I found out this Sansa thing is a PlaysForSure device | Jun 16 11:30 |
| DaemonMDV | probably why it’s so unfriendly with non-Microsoft media players trying to sync it | Jun 16 11:30 |
| oiaohm | In the scale of importance a few wins here and there for .net are not going to help MS long term. | Jun 16 11:30 |
| IsBob | schestowitz: so I will probably have to make public statements about Mono soon | Jun 16 11:31 |
| IsBob | and I wonder how many of the similar statements we’ve seen recently have been made by people in the same situation | Jun 16 11:31 |
| oiaohm | Can you still cover emerging techs IsBob | Jun 16 11:31 |
| oiaohm | like vala from gnome and state of samba. | Jun 16 11:31 |
| schestowitz | IsBob: bought opinions | Jun 16 11:32 |
| schestowitz | Microsoft does lots of it | Jun 16 11:32 |
| schestowitz | E.g. Tesco example from last week in BN | Jun 16 11:32 |
| schestowitz | ASUS’ fake “Windows is better” | Jun 16 11:32 |
| schestowitz | “vendor recommends Vista” (Microsoft bribes for this too) | Jun 16 11:32 |
| oiaohm | Creativity the say not to say anything bad against mono. There is nothing stopping talking about the competing techs. | Jun 16 11:32 |
| DaemonMDV | of course it is, you know just what to expect out of it | Jun 16 11:32 |
| DaemonMDV | *cough* | Jun 16 11:32 |
| schestowitz | “We’re interested in IP peace of mind” (not exact quote) | Jun 16 11:32 |
| schestowitz | But I never expected better from a company of thugs | Jun 16 11:33 |
| schestowitz | Bribing people to utters marketing lies | Jun 16 11:33 |
| IsBob | I wonder whether similar things are happening at Canonical, given their recent moves | Jun 16 11:33 |
| schestowitz | And later they point to it.. | Jun 16 11:33 |
| schestowitz | And say… | Jun 16 11:33 |
| DaemonMDV | schestowitz: According to Alexa’s site rank, almost every Linux-related site is going up | Jun 16 11:33 |
| schestowitz | “Look, Dell recommends Vista” | Jun 16 11:33 |
| DaemonMDV | but Microsoft.com has gone down over 5% | Jun 16 11:33 |
| schestowitz | and “HP recommends Vista” | Jun 16 11:33 |
| DaemonMDV | in this quarter | Jun 16 11:33 |
| schestowitz | And “everyone loves Mono” | Jun 16 11:34 |
| DaemonMDV | despite all the Windows 7 blitz | Jun 16 11:34 |
| schestowitz | “Lyons and Enderle and Didio say that SCO is going to win the trial” | Jun 16 11:34 |
| schestowitz | Don’t get me started on the Vista7 slog | Jun 16 11:34 |
| schestowitz | They bribe bloggers | Jun 16 11:34 |
| schestowitz | They bribe journalists | Jun 16 11:34 |
| DaemonMDV | it still dwarfs any Linux distro’s website hits | Jun 16 11:34 |
| schestowitz | And they attack those who say the truth | Jun 16 11:34 |
| DaemonMDV | but it is on the way down | Jun 16 11:34 |
| oiaohm | Are those hits counting windows update DaemonMDV | Jun 16 11:35 |
| schestowitz | It plays dirtty | Jun 16 11:35 |
| schestowitz | [on its way down] | Jun 16 11:35 |
| DaemonMDV | well, that’s not good for them, that their site is getting less popular despite so much advertising | Jun 16 11:35 |
| DaemonMDV | no | Jun 16 11:35 |
| DaemonMDV | only browsers | Jun 16 11:35 |
| DaemonMDV | Microsoft.com is the 18th most trafficked site in the United States | Jun 16 11:36 |
| IsBob | it pains me to see all of that because I’m exactly in the same situation, with hands tied | Jun 16 11:36 |
| DaemonMDV | Ubuntu was like 2400-something | Jun 16 11:36 |
| schestowitz | Windows Update is Akamai (Linux) | Jun 16 11:36 |
| IsBob | I wonder what we can do to stop people from using that Mono crap | Jun 16 11:36 |
| schestowitz | DaemonMDV: nope | Jun 16 11:36 |
| schestowitz | Alexa is no gold standard | Jun 16 11:36 |
| oiaohm | People finding out information on patches from windows update show up as hits DaemonMDV if it covering technet. | Jun 16 11:36 |
| schestowitz | It’s stupid to even make it believable | Jun 16 11:36 |
| schestowitz | IsBob: join the fight | Jun 16 11:36 |
| DaemonMDV | technet is a different domain | Jun 16 11:36 |
| schestowitz | Expose what you can | Jun 16 11:37 |
| schestowitz | It’s possible to do both | Jun 16 11:37 |
| schestowitz | Do the job and leaking the truth | Jun 16 11:37 |
| schestowitz | Many things in BN are based on whistle blowers | Jun 16 11:37 |
| oiaohm | Just had to ask some stats sites group them DaemonMDV. | Jun 16 11:37 |
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| oiaohm | IsBob: when you are forbin to talk about something always ask what you are not forbin to talk about. | Jun 16 11:37 |
| oiaohm | sometimes the not forbin can block what you are forbin to talk about. | Jun 16 11:38 |
| schestowitz | Forbidden = “we are doing something bad” | Jun 16 11:38 |
| schestowitz | Or “don’t ask” | Jun 16 11:38 |
| schestowitz | Honest people work openly | Jun 16 11:38 |
| schestowitz | Like here in BN | Jun 16 11:38 |
| schestowitz | We don’t do PMs | Jun 16 11:39 |
| schestowitz | And some people still try to trip us up this way | Jun 16 11:39 |
| oiaohm | I have had to work under all sorts of different conditions. | Jun 16 11:39 |
| DaemonMDV | http://www.crunchgear.com/2009/06/15/th… | Jun 16 11:40 |
| oiaohm | Lot of times taking a positive line in a different direction is simpler than dispute and still can be long term effective. | Jun 16 11:40 |
| DaemonMDV | Also, the comments on the Times Web site are truly disheartening: “This invention is stupid die die die.” Calm down, sirs. | Jun 16 11:40 |
| DaemonMDV | lmao | Jun 16 11:40 |
| oiaohm | God that knife is useless. | Jun 16 11:41 |
| oiaohm | Slash stab method would still work perfectly with it. | Jun 16 11:41 |
| DaemonMDV | well, it was invented in Sweden to be sold in the UK | Jun 16 11:43 |
| DaemonMDV | can’t really go too hard on it | Jun 16 11:43 |
| oiaohm | Besides I do use the point of knife when cooking at times. | Jun 16 11:43 |
| DaemonMDV | |
Jun 16 11:43 |
| DaemonMDV | well, if I bought the knife, why would I have bought it? | Jun 16 11:44 |
| DaemonMDV | so *I* can’t stab anyone? | Jun 16 11:44 |
| schestowitz | People will DIY their knives | Jun 16 11:44 |
| schestowitz | What a stupid idea | Jun 16 11:44 |
| DaemonMDV | Maybe I’ll just make up my own damned mind whether I want to stab someone | Jun 16 11:44 |
| DaemonMDV | heh | Jun 16 11:44 |
| schestowitz | Maybe they should also make hands that work only in the kitchen | Jun 16 11:44 |
| schestowitz | And ban metal | Jun 16 11:44 |
| schestowitz | Or… | Jun 16 11:44 |
| schestowitz | “Honey, will you please come to the kitchen?” | Jun 16 11:45 |
| DaemonMDV | well get this, you buy them, then get rid of your old knives | Jun 16 11:45 |
| DaemonMDV | then someone breaks into your house | Jun 16 11:45 |
| schestowitz | They relocate the crime | Jun 16 11:45 |
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| DaemonMDV | and you wish you had a knife to protect yourself with | Jun 16 11:45 |
| Np237 | heya | Jun 16 11:45 |
| schestowitz | Good luck going to people’s house confiscating all the old utensils | Jun 16 11:45 |
| schestowitz | Np237: hey, what’s up? | Jun 16 11:45 |
| *IsBob has quit (Remote closed the connection) | Jun 16 11:45 | |















