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07.17.09

What Nessus Teaches About Mono

Posted in GNU/Linux, Microsoft, Mono, Novell, Patents at 7:29 am by Dr. Roy Schestowitz

Statue

Summary: Some Mono analogies, analysis, and news

“THE more things change, the more they stay the same,” claims one of our readers, who prefers to remain anonymous. “Got .Nessus in your country’s infrastructure?” is the question he asks when suggesting that Microsoft is trying to poison the GNU/Linux operating system so as to gain more control over it because Free software takes over at the expense of Microsoft. The reference to Nessus is a mythological one as the reader explains thusly:

Nessus gave a poison cape as a gift.

Fenrir was tricked into letting an ubreakable chain be wrapped around his neck.

Amherst gave blankets from a deadly communicable disease to a population with particular vulnerability to the disease.

[Microsoft people] are on the way out, and like the dying Nessus want to give C# / .NET as a gift to ‘help’.

I’m sure there are other more common examples of poison pills from history and literature.

_______
Nessus’ cape:
[1]
[2]
[3]

Fenrir’s chain:
[4]
[5]

Amherst’s blankets:
[6]

This would be a nice analogy and a valuable reference. To borrow another example from this week’s news, the US military coup in Honduras might be worth a mention. To quote from this new report, “First, we know that the coup was led by Gen. Romeo Vasquez, a graduate of the US Army School of the Americas. As we know very well from history, these “graduates” maintain ties to the US military as they climb the military career ladders in their respective countries. That is a major reason why the US trains these individuals.” The short story is that several decades ago, more radical leaders in the White House worked to ensure that leader who are loyal to them reign southern and central America. Likewise, Microsoft seeks to infiltrate open source, other operating systems, and even standards bodies.

“We already wrote to explain why Microsoft’s community promise is confirmation that this is part of an “extent and extinguish” routine.”Ravi correctly states in his headline: “We will never kill Mono – Says Microsoft”

Of course they will never kill Mono. Well, Mono is good for Microsoft. That it has many issues associated with it is a problem which GNU/Linux is bound to suffer from. Consider this new interview with the developer of GNOME-Do, David Siegel. He explains why he chose Mono and as Tacone points out, “how much he loves c# 3.0 (which is out of standard) and Linq (also out of standard).”

We already wrote to explain why Microsoft's community promise is confirmation that this is part of an "extent and extinguish" routine. Banshee, for example, already uses some of the “uncovered” parts of .NET. This means that only SLED users (customer) can ‘safely’ use it for a few more years.

GNU/Linux users who understand what’s at stake do not want Mono (see comments in LinuxToday for example) and as one person puts it, “Mono is and always was a bad idea. Let Miguel live his Microsoftian dreams in peace but please keep it out of the GNU/Linux reality.

Mono-Nono has this new article about Mono infatuation with Microsoft. As always, it is an excellent analysis from Jason.

I picked this one because I think in 4 short sentences it illustrates most of the points that I see over and over again:

1. It is a representative quote – it’s given as part of an interview, not a twitter, blog entry, or part of a flame war on Slashdot. So it comes across as “official” Team Mono/Novell stuff.
2. It boasts of the “exclusivity” that Novell/Team Mono enjoys with Microsoft. Even if you don’t think this is a problem, I hope you can see how it could be perceived as offensive.
3. It constantly and unconditionally praises the technology. Everything is always “fantastic” or “superb” or “awesome” or “brilliant”. It comes across as worshipful, fanboy stuff.
4. It insults alternatives. Team Mono is not only always singing the praises of Mono/Moonlight/Microsoft, but it is a rare opportunity to degrade an alternative that passes by.
5. It promotes Mono/Moonlight as absolutely the right choice and ready for the most key parts of major projects.

On top of that, running on about Silverlight is a quadruple offense:

1. It has all the negative baggage that Mono has.
2. Plus, there is no ECMA/ISO standard to hide behind.
3. Plus, there is the incredibly offensive and anti-community Covenant.
4. Plus, de Icaza often talks about the exclusive help the Mono Project is getting from Microsoft. So good I mention this one twice.

Now, I’m sure yourself or Mr. de Icaza can justify and explain these sort of quotes – or maybe you don’t see anything wrong with them at all – but from my lights they are pretty close to the “infatuation” side of the relationship chart.

As we showed on a couple of occasions this week, Novell is putting Mono at the centre of its desktop and is integrating that with Moonlight too [1, 2]. Mono advocate Ryan Paul confirms that this is happening.

Banshee developer Aaron Bockover has revealed details about the next major version of the popular open source media player. Banshee will gain photo management capabilities and a custom user interface prototype designed specifically for netbooks.

It is worrying to see Canonical getting dragged into Novell’s desktop (Mono) strategy. From the Ubuntu Web site:

In this week’s Packaging Training Session Jo Shields (directhex), of the Debian/Ubuntu Mono team, will be explaining how to package Mono applications and libraries.

Based on what we learned, Ubuntu derivative gNewSense is looking at removal of Mono.

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71 Comments

  1. NymShift said,

    July 17, 2009 at 7:48 am

    Gravatar

    “THE more things change, the more they stay the same,”

    Gee I can really see why he would want to remain anonmyous after making such an outragious statement like that.

    It’s nice to see that Roy is getting so desperate for material he now quotes anonmous commenters from his “Cult of Roy” extremeist IRC channel.
    The very same channel that after someone post they would like to blow up Balmer with a grenada, Roy /kicked (me) for calling him out for hate speech..

    So according to Roy it’s ok to let someone threaten to kill someone on his IRC but its not ok for you to question a statement like that as inappropriate.

    http://news.cnet.com/8301-13505_3-10286679-16.html

    Read that Roy and see what damage your cult and hate talk you promote is damaging the entire FOSS community. Clearly your plan is to divide FOSS and destroy it from within. So far so good roy. Lets hope you continue to be so successful in your damage. And making FOSS look like a bunch of eliteest and extreme cultists.

    If it was not so sad, it would be funny, (Roy have you got a job yet?)

    eet Reply:

    I don’t think so. Roy is one of those [ironic]upper-crust white-boys who don’t need to work for a living[/ ironic], that’s why he spends all his time here.

    Roy Schestowitz Reply:

    “NymShift” is yet another nymshift of “Darryl”, a known Microsoft troll that Linux sites have already banned. We have a “no censorship” policy.

    …Funny how the Microsoft/Mono/Novell trolls storm on this post within minutes of posting.

    The points are not even being addressed (just ad hominem attacks), so the post must be on the right topic and too hard to challenge.

    David "Lefty" Schlesinger Reply:

    Well, there is a sort of a point in there, Roy.

    When I look at your tendency to bend, manipulate, distort and downright confabulate, combined with your tendency to drag your feet, screaming “Prove it! Prove it!”, every time you’re caught in one of your lies, right up to the point where you’re getting your nose firmly and steadily rubbed in the actual truth, along with your unfortunate inability to learn anything from your own sorry experience, I have to think of a particularly spoiled and over-indulged child whose Mom did (does?) everything for him.

    NymShift Reply:

    we’ll said, and yes he does come across as a spoilt little mommies boy.

    Moms little Roy boy of joy !!!.

    And its refreshing to see many other peoplesee Roy for what he really is.

    Get a job Roy. Then mabey just mabey someone will listen to you, but I doubt it. you lie far too much.

    Roy Schestowitz Reply:

    Says Microsoft shill “Darryl” (aka “NymShift”). Have all the Linux sites banned you already?Or just the ones I know about?

    David "Lefty" Schlesinger Reply:

    Have all the Linux sites banned you already?Or just the ones I know about?

    Hey, Roy, does everyone in the real FLOSS development community think you’re a pathological, lying, smear-spreading toad?

    Or is it just the (thousands of) people I know?

    Jonathan Wong Reply:

    As you know, I work for Microsoft.

    We have a “no censorship” policy.

    If that’s the case, why do you disable comments on all of your accusatory posts?

    http://boycottnovell.com/2009/07/14/paid-microsoft-astroturfer-wong/
    http://boycottnovell.com/2009/07/15/jonathan-wong-and-us/
    http://boycottnovell.com/2009/07/17/microsoft-reported-ftc/

    Can you answer that?

    David "Lefty" Schlesinger Reply:

    Yeah, I’d like to hear the answer to that one, too.

    NymShift Reply:

    Comments, or anyone questing the word of Roy is not allowed. You should know that by now.

    Roy is not out for logical, reasoned debate, he’s out to spread his own brand of stupid, purile, inuccate FUD.

    But he’s not very good at it, sol he’s decided to just say as much rubbish as possible and hope some of it sticks.

    Except you need a reputation to have anyone take notice of what you say Roy, and you do have a reputation, its just the wrong kind, its for your lies, bias and your small cult following who hang off your every word, like the david koresh of the Linux world.

    Chris Reply:

    So what’s the reasoning now for disallowing comments – especially for pages where you (boy) try to virtually assassinate someone who proofed you a liar?

    See http://boycottnovell.com/2009/07/18/zealot-meme-vs-minority/ and the especially the comment section of http://opensourcetogo.blogspot.com/2009/06/when-zeal-becomes-zealotry-tawdry-tale.html

    Besides that I’m wondering why my other comments don’t show up …. Great style boy ….

  2. eet said,

    July 17, 2009 at 7:54 am

    Gravatar

    Roy:

    As you hate the GPL (v2) so much, why do you use Linux?

    You should use a properly GPLd operating-system like GNU/HURD!

    David "Lefty" Schlesinger Reply:

    That’s right. Why isn’t this entire site running on GNU/HURD right now? It’s obvious that Roy is nothing more than a shill, he’s not really using “Free Software” at all!

    Man, you really had me going for a while there, Roy. eet, this really explains a lot of stuff about this place. Good catch.

  3. NymShift said,

    July 17, 2009 at 8:38 am

    Gravatar

    LOL, Roy why are you so scared to have a fair debate regarding the FUD you contantly spew forth ?

    Every time I ask you a simple question that you SHOULD be able to answer, you run like a scared little boy !! Is that all you are Roy, a shallow shell of a man with no real arguments to support your cult of hate ?

    Seems that way, Roy you are a joke in every way, I only come here to see what stupid and unfounded “facts” you are dishing up as FUD, as you try to scare your TINY band of loyal minions, most of which appear just about as brain dead as you are as their cult leader.

    But Roy you have zero credibility, you cant even get a job, I guess Mommy is still looking her little Roy boy, you must have that basement looking great by now. !!

    Im sure your proud of all you’ve achieved so far in your life, (if you had one).

    But you just hang with your followers, they will always tell you just what you want to hear. They are your true “yes” kids.

    David "Lefty" Schlesinger Reply:

    why are you so scared to have a fair debate regarding the FUD you contantly spew forth ?

    As I’ve been demonstrating (on my own time, Chimp, from my own computer, please don’ call my manager, B’rer Fox!) Roy is completely incapable of conducting a debate of any sort. His basic handicap is that he’s evidently so pathological a liar that he can no longer distinguish truth from his various and inconsistent fictions. And, as we’ve seen, when confronted with someone who can debate (Forensics Society, Honors, growing up in a whole family of lawyers has some advantages) he retreats under his bed, shrieking “Troll! Troll!” which has to be about the funniest thing ever.

    He constantly accuses me of lying and libeling him, but he has yet to produce a single, solitary piece of evidence to support those claims. Roy likes dishing the abuse and defamation out; he can’t deal with someone who’s intent on smacking him silly with the truth.

  4. aranur said,

    July 17, 2009 at 11:20 am

    Gravatar

    Whoa!!

    stack load of facts up there from nymshift, oh wait, every single paragraph is ad hominem

  5. aeshna23 said,

    July 17, 2009 at 12:03 pm

    Gravatar

    This would be a nice analogy and a valuable reference. To borrow another example from this week’s news, the US military coup in Honduras might be worth a mention.

    This is paranoid insanity, like the “9/11 truth” movement. Neither is the United States isn’t the source of all evil on the planet nor is this “coup” by the democratic elements in the Honduran government an evil. The Honduran president was attempting to subvert democracy in Honduras. It’s wonderful for democracy in Honduras that the man is out of power. The only mistake made is that Honduran government didn’t arrest the president and toss him in jail for trying to overthrow the government. There will be another election soon, and the results will be what they will.

    I assure all readers of boycottnovell that whatever crackpot political theories Roy subscribes to do nothing to discredit the ideas he expresses on this website relative to Mono, Microsoft, and software patents.

    Roy Schestowitz Reply:

    I wasn’t supporting or denouncing what the US had been doing in South America. I was only trying to explain something using an analogy.

    Are you going to deny the existence of many military coups and CIA backing (including training and ammunition) for some? That would be revisionist, aeshna23.

    aeshna23 Reply:

    Yes, I will argue that the many military coups of the CIA are over counted and not put into any rational perspective. Let’s start by admitting that it did happen in Guatamala in 1954, so such event did occur.
    But the two most famous cases, Chile and Iran, United States involvement is placed insanely out of proportion for what occurred. Let’s consider Chile first. The United States involvement in the Chile coup by Pinochet was trivial, but somehow the United States is blamed for it. Basically, Pinochet told Kissinger, “Hey, Dude, I’m planning a coup.” And Kissinger said, “Ok by me.” There may have been some slight aid by the CIA to the planners, but it was originated and 99% funded by within Chile. We can stop blaming the Untied States for Pinochet.

    And then there is my favorite alleged misdeed of the United States, the Iranian coup in 1953. An alcoholic blowhard CIA agent, Kermit Roosevelt, claimed to have single-handedly masterminded the Iranian coup with very little money (“cheapest coup ever” in Kermit’s words) after recently sneaking into the country. What are the odds that is a true story? Kermit managed to con Churchill and Dulles with his claim, and managed to get it into the official records of the CIA. No matter how much the Iranians at the time denied Kermit’s story, all we every hear about is Kermit’s fantasy like it is some truth. The bottom line is that people believe Kermit’s improbable fantasy because they want to believe it. I know that Kermit’s story is a popular myth, but try to find any evidence for it from a source that doesn’t lead back to Kermit.

    Finally, let’s try to some honest perspective here. During the period when the United States’s CIA was involved in a few coups, the Soviet Union was also engaged in trying to put into power governments that favored it. The United States needed to defend itself against an evil empire. And even at their worse, America’s “friends” weren’t as bad as the Soviet’s friends. Pinochet murdered only tens of thousands people is viewed as some great evil, while Castro murdered hundreds of thousands and is viewed by the the Left as an OK kind of guy. Further, Pinochet did his murdering on a larger population base than did Castro his murdering. If people were worried about human rights or murder or something like that, they would view Castro as far more than evil than Pinochet. It’s certainly not how the media have portrayed the two man and that difference shows the the leftist intent of the discourse about CIA as the great evil manipulator, like Jewish Bankers or the Illuminati.

    Roy Schestowitz Reply:

    Well, I intended to just present a simple analogy, not to express political opinions.

    For Honduras in this week’s news, see:

    Honduras Tries for a PR Coup
    http://www.prwatch.org/node/8466

    Honduran Rivals See U.S. Intervention as Crucial in Resolving Political Crisis
    http://www.nytimes.com/2009/07/13/world/americas/13honduras.html?_r=1

    David "Lefty" Schlesinger Reply:

    I assure all readers of boycottnovell that whatever crackpot political theories Roy subscribes to do nothing to discredit the ideas he expresses on this website relative to Mono, Microsoft, and software patents.

    A little dissension in the ranks there. “Crackpot”, huh?

    Seems about right.

  6. David "Lefty" Schlesinger said,

    July 17, 2009 at 12:53 pm

    Gravatar

    It is worrying to see Canonical getting dragged into Novell’s desktop (Mono) strategy…

    So, Roy, then I asume that you will be nominating yourself for one of the open seats on the Ubuntu Technical Board, right? I mean, you’re so worried and all, and you must be aware that the UTB is the body that decides what goes into and stays out of Ubuntu, that it isn’t determined by the volume of whiny, inaccurate propaganda written by soi disant “advocates”, right?

    Chips_B_Malroy Reply:

    Lefty:

    I was just wondering, Does ACCESS and the Foundation know that you are here trolling? Do they know that you are here making fun of GNU in other posts? Do they know about your “problem” with Richard Stallman? BTW, I would also like to know if that “problem” happened on the clock so to speak?

    Anybody else want to know?

    http://www.access-company.com/about/regional/americas.html

    Regional Contacts

    ACCESS Systems
    Americas, Inc.
    1188 East Arques Avenue
    Sunnyvale, CA 94085, USA
    Tel: +1-408-400-3000
    Fax: +1-408-400-1500

    ACCESS Systems USA, Inc.
    1188 East Arques Avenue
    Sunnyvale, CA 94085, USA
    Tel: +1-408-400-1900
    Fax: +1-408-400-1500

    IP Infusion Inc.
    1188 East Arques Avenue
    Sunnyvale, CA 94085, USA
    Tel: +1-408-400-1900
    Fax: +1-408-400-1500
    http://www.ipinfusion.com

    David "Lefty" Schlesinger Reply:

    I was just wondering, Does ACCESS and the Foundation know that you are here trolling? Do they know that you are here making fun of GNU in other posts? Do they know about your “problem” with Richard Stallman? BTW, I would also like to know if that “problem” happened on the clock so to speak?

    I’m not trolling, Chump. I’m discussing I’m arguing. I’m debating That’s what this site is for, since it escaped your attention, somehow.

    ACCESS knows all about this swinepit. I warned them that I was going to post the entry with the goods on Roy’s shenanigans before I did it, of course–I’m a corporate spokesperson (BUT NOT NOW, ROY!), did I mention that?

    I told them that I was deeply incensed with Roy’s mendacity and duplicity, and I was going to be making him my personal chew-toy, and the real FLOSS community would applaud me for it. And they said, “As long as you make it clear that you’re not representing ACCESS”, and I said, “Well, obviously.”, and that was that.

    And,in fact, I didn’t have to pay for a single beer the entire time I was in Gran Canaria. And I had a good number of beers. Have I mentioned that folks don’t really think too much of this site. I guess if they liked Roy about five times better than they do, it would be fair to say that he’s loathed.

    Now, as I’ve quite fairly warned you, Shemp, I don’t like my manager bothered by lunatics with axes to grind. That’s out of hand and that’s over the line. I’m not chasing down Roy’s academic advisors and asking them whether there’s actually a grad program in Defamation over there in Manchester. I wouldn’t do that. (And I don’t recommend that anyone else do it, either.)

    We’re having a debate here, gentlemen–well, I am, at least–a difference of opinion. We are engaging in argumentation in order to discern the truth of things. When you turn this discussion of our different views into something personal, and start to do things that make it look like you’re fixing to screw around with the real lives of real people you have then crossed the magic border into malignant sociopath territory.

    You are taking a difference of opinion over SOFTWARE , a bunch of ones and zeroes, and you’re starting to think about pushing people down stairways over it.

    Friends, I’m here to tell you that’s just crazy.

    Let me explain why I dislike this, just so we’re all on the same page. You bunch of bozos can’t hurt me, I’m good at my job, and what I do on my own time is my own business. However, when Mark Fink chortled about calling my manager on the ubuntu-devel list, he scared a lot of people who maybe aren’t so secure in their jobs. (Remember, boys, we’re talking about FLOSS programmers here, this site’s constituency, right?)

    Well, a bunch started feeling they had to use pseudonyms to post after than, since what if someone started calling their boss? Roy and Fink, colluding together, created a concern that they would try to put FLOSS programmers out of work for the crime of disagreeing with them.

    FLOSS lives on reputation. Reputation is founded on identity. If Roy’s little pet makes people hide their identities, out of fear of the sort of reprisals that were tried on me, what happens to reputation then? Again, remember these are the real FLOSS programmers, the people for whom this (HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!, Sorry.) site is supposed to exist. Right?

    So, what’s the Chimp doing here? You can’t hurt me, but if you try to hurt me, you’re going to scare a lot of REAL FLOSS DEVELOPERS DO I NEED TO SAY IT AGAIN? by doing so.

    And I hate that. And I’m gonna hold Roy responsible, because he’s the editor, and he’s responsible for what goes on here.

    Now, there’s a difference between the kind of screwing with people’s lives that the Chimp here seems to be mulling over, and the courtroom dissection to which I plan to subject poor little Roy to if Chimp actually does something about it.

    My hauling Roy into court, if it indeed comes to that, and it’s looking a lot more likely to me–I have a year at least to mull this over, by the way, and every time Roy libels me again, he pushes that out–is a question of redressing the wrongs for which Roy is responsible. This is what the legal system is for, gentlemen.

    If you feel you have been wronged, and if all reasonable efforts to correct that wrong have been exhausted, and if on due consideration you feel you can make your case you go to court. That’s what it’s for. You do not try to get the other guy fired. You donot kill his cat. You donot burn down his house.

    Any questions? Are we all on the same page here?

    Chips_B_Malroy Reply:

    Yes, I have a question, or two, Lefty.

    It is not Roy that is trying to get you fired. Its not even me, I only want answers. But clearly you seemed worried, I do not blame you for your worry. Insulting RMS and they continuing to ask more, like a crusade, tell me, does ACCESS or the Foundation support this type of behavior?

    And since you already said you have cleared all this with your Boss, then Its not a problem for you If I contact them is it?

    David "Lefty" Schlesinger Reply:

    Do they know about your “problem” with Richard Stallman? BTW, I would also like to know if that “problem” happened on the clock so to speak?

    Indeed they do, Chimp. In fact, rather than go home after a fairly grueling return trip, I stopped in at the office to advise them about this. They stand behind me 100%. When I told our PR director Stallman’s “harmless little joke”, she gasped. She was literally speechless. Okay?

    So, if you want to whine about Stallman, or bitch about me, or whatever, do it here. Do it on my blog if you can manage to summon up a credible identity (there’s that reputation thing again), stick to a topic and manage not to be incoherent (you don’t make the cut, Shemp). Do it on your own blog. Do it on USENET.

    Do not pester my employers about it. They’ll thank you for your concern, tell you they stand behind me, and hang up on you.

    But I am sick and tired of you bunch of pasty-faced, pimple-necked, puling infants acting like a bunch of terrorists–and I use that word with all due consideration and care–with respect to the REAL FLOSS COMMUNITY REMEMBER THEM?

    You are using dirty tactics, like threatening people’s livelihoods, to attempt to terrifying people into giving you your way. Don’t agree with Jo Shields? Let’s try to get him fired! Getting the forensic crap regularly kicked out of you by Lefty? Let’s try to get him fired! Somebody point out that the “leader of the Free Software movement” is doing things that pretty clearly would have the effect of driving women away from the Free Software movement? Let’s try to get him fired! Somebody express their own opinion? Let’s try to get him fired!

    You folks have lost any shred of perspective, sense, empathy or reality you might ever have possessed in your miserable little lives. You are starting to behave like a bunch of hyenas. Psychotic hyenas. You need to get a grip.

    If your “cause” is so all-fired important to you that you’re ready to screw up people’s lives over it, you have a very serious problem. You need some professional help. I am in deadly earnest when I say this.

    Chips_B_Malroy Reply:

    Lefty says:
    “But I am sick and tired of you bunch of pasty-faced, pimple-necked, puling infants acting like a bunch of terrorists–and I use that word with all due consideration and care–with respect to the REAL FLOSS COMMUNITY REMEMBER THEM?”
    ——————————————————————————————–
    Sick and Tired you are. But “you bunch,” who exactly do you mean? Explain please, as you are never going sue Roy. Anyway, its Roy’s problem not mine. You would lose in court, you have no case id my opinion.

    Now you could go after me, but any judge would laugh you out of court. And even if you won, what would you gain? Money, have to have some to get some. Income, you cannot touch retirement in the USA, which is where you live. But I could get some lawyers to counter sue and work on commission, and make it a into a media case. If thats what you want? Go for it. I am soooooooooo scared!

    Lefty says:
    “You are using dirty tactics, like threatening people’s livelihoods,”

    Well, its not Roy you are talking to here sir! Get a grasp. Why would I like you, you have publically insulted me on every turn, I have you on record. Used lots of name calling, sure that ACCESS and the Foundation as you say approve of you conduct.

    When you conduct yourself badly, what do you expect? At some point you are going to or have already ticked off someone who is going complain about you. And because you have a public FOSS life, you don’t think its fair that happens. But at the same time you have cited your titles and your job to prove how important your are and how little everyone else is.

    Your conduct sir is unbecoming of a gentleman. And yes, you can rest assured that I will make inquiries.

    Chips_B_Malroy Reply:

    Lefty says:
    “Do they know about your “problem” with Richard Stallman? BTW, I would also like to know if that “problem” happened on the clock so to speak?

    Lefty says:
    “ACCESS knows all about this swinepit. I warned them that I was going to post the entry with the goods on Roy’s shenanigans before I did it, of course–I’m a corporate spokesperson (BUT NOT NOW, ROY!), did I mention that?
    I told them that I was deeply incensed with Roy’s mendacity and duplicity, and I was going to be making him my personal chew-toy, and the real FLOSS community would applaud me for it. And they said, “As long as you make it clear that you’re not representing ACCESS”, and I said, “Well, obviously.”, and that was that.”

    “Now, as I’ve quite fairly warned you, Shemp, I don’t like my manager bothered by lunatics with axes to grind. That’s out of hand and that’s over the line.”

    “So, what’s the Chimp doing here? You can’t hurt me, but if you try to hurt me, you’re going to scare a lot of REAL FLOSS DEVELOPERS DO I NEED TO SAY IT AGAIN? by doing so.”
    ————————————————————————————————-

    At least Lefty admits that others are “REAL” floss developers, would this mean he is not. Also Lefty, you are trolling this site, you are engaging in Name calling, for example “Chimp.”

    Let you in on a clue Lefty, it you are nicer to people, they might not go after you. But when its all name calling, insults, trolling, what do you expect? And “Shemp” like “Chimp,” is on the record as more names that Lefty refers to me as.

    Thanks for the WARNING Lefty, not to bother your manager. But since you have called me an “idiot,” in the other thread so many times, I will not take your advice, no matter how good it will be. In fact, I plan on wasting that coins on the phone very soon. Your actions have made me decide to do it. And you only have your altitude to blame. Nobody else, but your ego.

    Chips_B_Malroy Reply:

    And Lefty:
    Perhaps if you had publically apologized for you conduct sooner this would not have had to happen. If this is really Lefty and not someone impersonating him, if fact. That will be the first question, most likely.

    I am mad as heck now about your conduct here. I am at the point that I prefer to chat with the M$ Shills, they at least seem not to be full of ego.

    Lefty, you can rest assure that I will get a proper response from someone in your company and or foundation. I once spend 3 days on the phone beating the Post Office. So go ahead, important REAL floss man, threaten me some more, see where that will go for you.

    David "Lefty" Schlesinger Reply:

    It is not Roy that is trying to get you fired.

    Well, I’ve got the evidence that demonstrates that Roy was complicit in an effort to cause trouble for me with my manager in the past. A digitally signed email. So there’s no reason for me to believe–given that he’s been shown to lie his fool head off–that he’s not doing it again. I’ve got plenty of reasons to haul Roy into court right now, and he seems to be intent on providing more on a regular basis.

    Its not even me, I only want answers.

    Well, gee, dude, did it ever occur to you to, maybe, ask me?

    I mean, why would I possibly think you might be trying to get every sockpuppetin’ yahoo on this site to pester the nice folks over at ACCESS, just because you posted al the phone numbers and stuff, after I’ve made it clear I’m not speaking for them.

    Yes, they know all about it, and those with strong stomachs and low senses of humor are following it with a good bit of interest. But I AM NOT SPEAKING FOR ACCESS HERE, AND MY CRITICISMS OF RICHARD STALLMAN AS WELL AS MY ISSUES WITH ROY SCHESTOWITZ AND THIS SITE ARE ENTIRELY MY OWN. Do you grasp that, Chimp?

    But clearly you seemed worried

    No, I don’t, Chump. That’d be ’cause I’m not, see? Call ‘em. Ask ‘em. They’ll tell you what I told you they’d tell you.

    I do not blame you for your worry.

    But, Chimp: I’m not worried. (Although I suspect wee Roy might be starting to sweat bullets about this point… But I digress.)

    Insulting RMS…

    I have not “insulted” Stallman. I have definitely criticized Stallman, as have many others, and we’re entitled to do so. for someone who’s so keen on defending Freedom, Chimp, you don’t seem to have a terribly good grasp on what it means. (Freedom is a two-edged sword; it is currently vivisecting you.)

    (Are you going to be calling up Matthew’s, and Chani’s, and Andre’s, and Paul’s employers to, because you “want answers” from them, too, Shemp?

    and they continuing to ask more, like a crusade,

    I’m sorry, Chump, this isn’t even comprehensible. Can you state that as a question, please?

    tell me, does ACCESS or the Foundation support this type of behavior?

    Support what kind of behavior? My criticizing Stallman? Yes, absolutely, they support my right to do it. 100%. I’m a private citizen, and I make rational criticisms all I want.

    Do they support my opinion on the matter? That’s not a meaningful question. ACCESS is a company, it has no particular opinion on the matter. The GNOME Foundation (if that’s the “Foundation” to which you’re referring) has not made any statement on the matter at this point. You could certainly contact the individual members of the Foundation Board (do you have any idea who they even are, Shemp? I know ‘em all… But I digress.) and ask them their opinions on the matter.

    But I’m again 100% confident that they would support my right to express my thoughts, feelings and opinions as I see fit.

    See, Chimp, we all believe in this thing called “freedom”. That means I get to have, and to express, my own opinions. Your crying need to get “answers” is an effort to make my opinions an issue with my employer. As I said, you can’t hurt me this way, and I’m definitely not worried.

    However, as I’ve said, and as you seem to be too dim to grasp, what you do has a chilling effect on the way other people in the FLOSS community conduct themselves. If other people who happen to think i’m doing the right thing by criticizing Stallman start to get concerned that you might call their employer for some “answers”.

    They stop participating in mailing list discussions. If they post, they post using pseudonyms. Nobody knows who’s who any more, except for those who refuse to be intimidated by you thugs. Reputation goes out the window.

    All because you “want answers”, Champ.

    I’m the one doing criticizing Stallman, if that’s your gripe. You want answers, you come to me.

    Is that so difficult to grasp?

    Now, I’m just sayin’: if you do start harassing my employer over my personal activities, and making other folks in the FLOSS community concerned that you might pul the same shenanigans on them, then I will most definitely get the ball rolling on taking Roy to court, post-haste, for defamation and for whatever else I can come up with in the time I have to prepare. And I’m gonna call my friend Jeff Waugh, whom Roy defamed, and I’m gonna get hold of Jimmi Hugh, whom Roy also defamed, and I’m gonna get hold of the whole gang of tech writers whom Roy also defamed, and anyone else I can find being identifiably defamed (Steve Balmer, maybe? I’d do it, I’m that annoyed with Roy) and I’m gonna depose ‘em all. I’m going to show that there’s a systematic pattern of lies and libels on what purports to be a “journalistic” site, and that it’s editor, Mr. Schestowitz, is entirely responsible for it.

    And Roy can explain himself, under oath, in front of a judge. We’ll see who wins. “Journalists” have rights, but every right comes with an associated responsibility. If Roy wants to be a “journalist”–and that’s what it says in the signature of his email–and enjoy the right to a Free Press, then he takes on the responsibility to tell the truth. And Roy has lied his ass off.

    In particular, I can show that Roy libeled me. How? Because he printeda full retraction of those libels, an apology, and a promise to be more responsible in the future.

    Since he broke that promise within hours, I can show that he acted in bad faith, which is a factor that will certainly count against him.

    I can show that Roy has undertaken a continuing campaign of defamation against which continues (so far) right up to the present. Easily.

    So, that’s my case.

    Want to share yours, Shemp? I mean, since you’re playing counsel for the defense and all. We could do a moot trial thing, unless it’s going to give Roy a heart attack or something. I wouldn’t want that.

    Your conduct sir is unbecoming of a gentleman. And yes, you can rest assured that I will make inquiries.

    Knock yourself out. Say bye-bye to everyone, Roy. I can get the wheels turning after the weekend.

    David "Lefty" Schlesinger Reply:

    At least Lefty admits that others are “REAL” floss developers, would this mean he is not.

    I wasn’t contrasting them with me, Chump. I was contrasting them with you. You’re just a whiny backseat driver who doesn’t even have a real identity.

    Also Lefty, you are trolling this site, you are engaging in Name calling, for example “Chimp.”

    Tough. You lost your “respect” card when you lied about all the pro-Mono content on my web site. I’ll call you what I like, and there’s not much you can do about it, Bluto.

    Let you in on a clue Lefty, it you are nicer to people, they might not go after you.

    Let me let you in on a clue, “Chips”: I don’t need to be “nice” to you. I Am Not A Nice Guy. I can be a nice guy, as my many friends will, I think, attest, but I Am Not A Nice Guy. I am nice to people who make sense. I am Not Nice to people who take technical discussions and turn them into vendettas. People like you. People like Roy.

    And I don’t think much of you, as you may possibly have surmised. I don’t care if you “go after me”, you don’t bother or scare me.

    But when its all name calling, insults, trolling, what do you expect? And “Shemp” like “Chimp,” is on the record as more names that Lefty refers to me as.

    But when you flat-out lied your head off about all the Mono content you “read” on my web site, what do you expect?

    Shemp Howard was one of the “Three Stooges”, by the way. You definitely remind me of him.

    Thanks for the WARNING Lefty, not to bother your manager. But since you have called me an “idiot,” in the other thread so many times, I will not take your advice, no matter how good it will be.

    Well, can’t say I didn’t give you advance notice. Be sure and report back on what they tell you, okay?

    And you’re pretty darn thin-skinned, Chump. Maybe the Internet is not a healthy place for you. It seems unhealthy for Roy. Memory problems. Lapses of judgment. That sort of thing.

    In fact, I plan on wasting that coins on the phone very soon. Your actions have made me decide to do it. And you only have your altitude to blame. Nobody else, but your ego.

    Hey, you make your own decisions, don’t try and pin them on me. Have fun!

    David "Lefty" Schlesinger Reply:

    Perhaps if you had publically apologized for you conduct sooner this would not have had to happen.

    Apologize? For what?

    If this is really Lefty and not someone impersonating him, if fact. That will be the first question, most likely.

    Oh, it’s me. I assure you. I mean the views I’m expressing are the same views I’m expressing on my blog, and that’s certainly me… I guess I could PGP-sign a comment or something, but, nah. You go see, if you must.

    I am mad as heck now about your conduct here.

    Well, I’m not too pleased with yours, so there you go.

    I am at the point that I prefer to chat with the M$ Shills, they at least seem not to be full of ego.

    I would find that a great relief, actually. You’re really starting to bore me.

    Lefty, you can rest assure that I will get a proper response from someone in your company and or foundation.

    Okay. I don’t think you’re going to be terribly happy with it.

    I once spend 3 days on the phone beating the Post Office.

    Golly!

    So go ahead, important REAL floss man, threaten me some more, see where that will go for you.

    I don’t think I’ve threatened you yet, you mooncalf. I’ve explained things to you, yet you persisitently refuse to get it. It’s gotta be that you’re just so dense that nothing can get through there.

    But go ahead, if you feel you must. Have I mentioned that you sound as though you’re about fourteen?

    NymShift Reply:

    GO FOR IT LEFTY, I cant wait to see Roy get everything he deserves.

    Need any help ??? just let me know.

    David "Lefty" Schlesinger Reply:

    Well, if you’re interested…

    Anyone who wants a piece of Roy, or wants to help me in my preparations to haul him into court and hit him with damages that will have him eating cat food until he’s a little old troll (Millions of hits a day, right Roy? Millions of eyes exposed to your libels… As I said, even at a penny a pop, we’re talkin’ real money here), please send me links to articles or comments you find here that show clear defamation or outright lies. I want to collect the whole set.

    My email address is lefty@shugendo.org; and if you trolls want to send me anonymous hate mail, have at it, I’ll save those too, since I believe I can demonstrate an ongoing pattern of Roy orchestrating and directing things like that.

    David "Lefty" Schlesinger Reply:

    Oh, and I’m particularly interested in hearing from those who feel that they’ve been personally defamed by Roy, especially if his defamatory statements could have been easily determined to be false, i.e. by a Google search, etc.

    Such things show “a flagrant disregard for the truth”, and for a “journalist”, that’s going to be a killer in court.

    “Mr. Schestowitz, when you began to present yourself as a ‘journalist’, were you somehow unaware that this entailed a commitment to telling the truth, and to correcting errors of which you became aware in a full and timely fashion…?”

    “Well, see, I have my thesis, and the site gets millions of…”

    “This is a yes-or-no question, Mr. Schestowitz. I’m not asking for a description of your day-to-day activities.”

    “I didn’t lie!”

    “Well, the evidence seems to clearly show otherwise, Mr. Schestowitz. Can you account for that?”

    Chips_B_Malroy Reply:

    And Lefty:
    Well, you are right about one thing, I did post the phone numbers up their hoping someone else would make the call.

    But it last past the point that it is personal now. The fact that you have used your titles and companies name here, will not help you. The fact that you say you have cleared this with your company, and that your bosses support you against this site (at least I think you said that somewhere) sorting drags more people into it.

    I will see what your Boss says, if he is a reseasonable person or if you what say is true. But one think about a cmpany, is there are many people to contact going up the list, and more ways to contact them. At each level I will name the boss at the last level that did not do anything. And then, there is the letter writing campaign. I will look to see if ACCESS has a board of directors, or if it private. Maybe I will write to local media.

    And maybe, I will contact so many folks in the FLOSS/Linux/GNU community, by phone/email/ letter some with the links of your trolling here, BTW.

    Many I will start the letter off, with:

    Are you aware of the conduct of (insert your name)

    David "Lefty" Schlesinger Reply:

    Well, you are right about one thing, I did post the phone numbers up their hoping someone else would make the call.

    Yes, you did. And you clearly did it in a stupid attempt to intimidate me because you don’t like my opinions. You freedom-hater.

    But it last past the point that it is personal now.

    You’re the one who made it personal, Shemp. You did that when you (chicken-heartedly) hoped that “someone else would make the call”. You’re so much of a coward that you choose this totally passive-aggressive method of attempting to scare me off? You’re a sick man, Chimp.

    The fact that you have used your titles and companies name here, will not help you. The fact that you say you have cleared this with your company, and that your bosses support you against this site (at least I think you said that somewhere) sorting drags more people into it.

    No, it doesn’t, and you’re misrepresenting what I said. My company is aware that I am expressing my opinions, both about Stallman and about Roy. They support my right to express my opinions. I am expressing those opinions on my own behalf, not on theirs. They don’t have opinions about Stallman. What happens on this site is between Roy and me, not between ACCESS and the University of Manchester. I’m not sure why you’re having so much trouble with this.

    I will see what your Boss says, if he is a reseasonable person or if you what say is true.

    He is both a reasonable person, and he will tell you that what I’ve said is true. That’s one of the reasons I don’t like you confused maniacs pestering him. He’s got work to do. Unlike you, I suspect.

    But one think about a cmpany, is there are many people to contact going up the list, and more ways to contact them. At each level I will name the boss at the last level that did not do anything. And then, there is the letter writing campaign. I will look to see if ACCESS has a board of directors, or if it private. Maybe I will write to local media.

    What exactly are you planning on writing letters about, Chump? “He expressed his opinion! He caught Roy in lies! He called me names!”

    What are you, five?

    And maybe, I will contact so many folks in the FLOSS/Linux/GNU community, by phone/email/ letter some with the links of your trolling here, BTW.

    Most of my friends in the FLOSS community are well aware of what I’m doing here. They read my blog. I’d say the almost universal opinion is that Roy richly deserves it.

    Many I will start the letter off, with:

    Are you aware of the conduct of (insert your name)

    Very nice, good start. Of course, it gets a lot more challenging after that point.

    I’d use a red crayon. Gives it that sense of urgency, y’ know?

    David "Lefty" Schlesinger Reply:

    Shemp, you probably oughta be aware of something… Everybody above my direct manager at ACCESS is Japanese. 日本語を話せるか? Hope so.

    =D

    Jose_X Reply:

    I don’t have time to read much now, but who is posting personal phone numbers around here? That is exactly the wrong thing to do if someone is doing that. This site serves as a great resource to many FOSS supporters. Sure, you have to use your noodles a little and not swallow everything you read here whole, but there are other ways to settle disagreements between those that decide to take their time to comment on this site.

    I’m sure there are authorities where you can report abuse if that is what is going on here.

    Roy, there are many places to go post. If people can’t feel comfortable coming here to release some stress through comments but without getting overly insulting, threatening, etc, then this site will lose supporters.

    David, you have been instigating quite a bit of backlash. Speaking only for myself, I think you are having trouble digesting other’s replies and responding with respect. I’m sure I am not the only one bothered by the tone and content of what you are posting. You have fair grievances but you must have been mistaken if you thought this gave you a ticket to abuse other people that had not wronged you. I speak about myself mainly. If you think you are being wronged, (eg, by me) try to be clear about what specifically, so I can address it directly. Humor is fine, but your delivery can’t be that ambiguous so repeatedly and expect no reaction from others.

    When you are not respectful, you will not gain sympathy and you will not make your grievances believable or get them resolved.

    Everyone, let’s try to slow down our attacks on messengers. The message is more important. Attacks feel good perhaps at times, but I’m not sure the messages desired are getting their due when laced with cyanide.

    [My personal email is hozelda at the domain yahoo.com.]

    *****
    David, I’m sure you are a great guy when the drug effects wear off, but of what you say some amount is nonsense and might be helping certain efforts I really dislike. People don’t always recognize humor and might think you are being serious perhaps more frequently than is the case.

    I’m sure you are tired after posting so much, and I will not have much time to post until possibly as late as Sunday evening UTC. I guess this means next week there will be opportunity for us to tackle important issues like software patents, mono, and sexism and other abuses. I really like the idea of you bringing us videos of sexism and other abuses in action. More should be done to make sure all women and as many groups as possible can feel comfortable using Linux to their hearts delight and participating in the community without unnecessary restraints.

    Talk to you later.

    Chips_B_Malroy Reply:

    Well, you are right about one thing, I did post the phone numbers up their hoping someone else would make the call. (they are public company phone numbers Jose_X)

    Lefty replied with:
    “Yes, you did. And you clearly did it in a stupid attempt to intimidate me because you don’t like my opinions. You freedom-hater.”
    _________________________________________________________________________________________________

    Lefty, you were only correct for the first 3 words. The rest of it you were way off the mark. First, I figured you would insult me, thats you standard play. Its called giving someone enough rope to hang themselves. And it will make a very good link in additional to others for the email campaign. You see, I knew you would never back down. There was no intimidation, because that implies that I will not carry though. Your name calling, its bad, but most likely others will not see it as a big deal. Your despute with Roy, is like you say, between the two of you. But even there, I would say you went too far and show no forgiveness, (if he is in the wrong, not proven). That will be for others to judge, not you and me. But your remarks here in a public forum after you have been identified, about GNU for one, and RMS went too far. Also, I might point out that your atitude and the fact that you insulted almost anyone here, that wasn’t insulting Roy, is not going gain you all friends in the community. Sure, there will be some that like that. Your conduct is all over this site in the links I intend to provide.

    Lefty also says:
    Many I will start the letter off, with:

    Are you aware of the conduct of (insert your name)

    “Very nice, good start. Of course, it gets a lot more challenging after that point.

    I’d use a red crayon. Gives it that sense of urgency, y’ know? ”
    ————————————————————————————————-
    I do appreciate help here so much. The Dollar Store was out of the boxes of those all red jumbo crayon’s. But its nice to see that you might have a sense of humor, as you have been all spite and meaness on this site. Then again maybe you do use the crayons? No, thats not fair, we already know you are a big time Floss Mac laptop user. Maybe theres hope for you, I actually wish you well. Just I think ACCESS and the Foundation, could do a lot better than you, sorry to say.

    But you will no doubt be happy to hear, since you mentioned it, that the a few more lines of the form letter has a release candidate:
    2. who has been on public forums rediculing the GNU Operating System and
    3. Has been on a crusade of attacking public speakers such as Richard M. Stallman
    4. Links follows:

    Kind of like it so far, but any suggestions you might make like you crayon one is just great!
    ————————————————————————————————-
    So Lefty tells me basically its pointless to try to compaign about his conduct. I think he is mostly right, to tell you the truth. But thats not the point, I would be wrong to not try.

    David "Lefty" Schlesinger Reply:

    Cut the crap, and stop the hand-wringing, Jose. The Chimp there posted ‘em, and he did it in the hopes that someone else would see ‘em and “tell my boss on me”.

    Since Mark Fink, with Roy’s collusion–remember, I’ve got that email, and you don’t get to tell me how to interpret it, I get to tell the judge how I interpret it–did exactly that to me over my asking him to stop him inappropriate anti-Mono flamewar on the ubuntu-devel list, it seems that this sort of thing is par for the course around here.

    You have fair grievances but you must have been mistaken if you thought this gave you a ticket to abuse other people that had not wronged you. I speak about myself mainly.

    Please, Jose, I haven’t abused you, particularly. Certainly not in comparison with the way Roy’s abused me. (Remember, he admitted libel, retracted it, apologized, promised not to do it again, and then, surprise! He did it again. So don’t look for a lot of sympathy from me. It’s the way things are done around here, Roy sets the tone. Don’t like it here anymore? Leave. Ignore me. Whatever. You figure it out.)

    David, I’m sure you are a great guy when the drug effects wear off…

    Gosh, thanks, Jose. Now blow it out your ear. Go do your poll.

    David "Lefty" Schlesinger Reply:

    I really like the idea of you bringing us videos of sexism and other abuses in action. More should be done to make sure all women and as many groups as possible can feel comfortable using Linux to their hearts delight and participating in the community without unnecessary restraints.

    It would be pleasant if this were all true, Jose, but it’s not. If you actually felt this way, you’d be speaking out against the folks who are saying “It’s all about Mono”, and the folks who are saying “It’s all about patents”, and the folks who say “It’s a witch hunt”, and the articles Roy posts claiming the whole thing is FUD.

    But you don’t do any of that, do you? Because you’re not being sincere, you’re just mouthing a bunch of words. And you particularly wouldn’t be handing me moronic diversions like “Now we can do a poll!”

    Please stop wasting my time.

    David "Lefty" Schlesinger Reply:

    Hey, Chips, you want some help with the Japanese?

    I think you ought to start out with

    私はとても五月蝿くて馬鹿な外国人。私の言うことをわかりません。

    Jose_X Reply:

    >> It would be pleasant if this were all true, Jose, but it’s not. If you actually felt this way, you’d be speaking out against the folks who are saying “It’s all about Mono”, and the folks who are saying “It’s all about patents”, and the folks who say “It’s a witch hunt”, and the articles Roy posts claiming the whole thing is FUD.

    A lot of folks don’t think that particular incident was likely that grievous if at all. Perhaps they know Stallman well enough to know what was intended. Do you feel exactly as you did before as you do now?

    The problem about women not having a comfortable environment appears to be real (it’s not something that has impacted me personally).

    As for the mono/patents thing, I do think it’s very possible you allowed yourself to withhold the benefit of the doubt in this particular case, and I think your views of Stallman and his recent actions may have contributed to this.

    I can’t judge you, it’s not that important, and I don’t necessarily think you were influenced, but human emotion and judgment being what they are, it’s a real possibility you were influenced.

    Really these are two separate issues. One is about what David did and why and what Stallman did and why. The other is about what appears to be an ongoing problem.

    Anyway, I wanted to bring this up. I’m hoping to be motivated enough to address this in some way later on.

    Right now I am late, and need to run.

    David "Lefty" Schlesinger Reply:

    A lot of folks don’t think that particular incident was likely that grievous if at all.

    And, to the best of my knowledge, none of them were actually there.

    Perhaps they know Stallman well enough to know what was intended.

    Don’t you get it, Jose? What he intended is immaterial. It’s the effect that matters. If I intend to pat you on the back and I knock you down three flights of stairs instead, do you still feel good about that?

    Do you feel exactly as you did before as you do now?

    About Stallman? Pretty much.

    About all the folks who want to say it’s about Mono and about patents and who want to conduct polls to figure out the meaning of a pair of sentences comprising 34 words and determine if those of us who were actually present at this keynote were authentically offended enough? No, I’m much more disgusted with them. Do you get my drift, Jose?

  7. NotZed said,

    July 17, 2009 at 8:02 pm

    Gravatar

    I think you’ve hit the real nail on the head here.

    The problem is not so much the patents, but the `API religion’ that it spreads. Not to mention the notion that only proprietary software companies come up with solutions and the open saucers are just free-loaders copying the idea.

    Coincidentally I just installed a new computer with gNewSense and I was quite impressed. Maybe it’s just in my head but it feels nicer than ubuntu for some reason – it certainly looks better for the most part (no doubt the quad core and 4g memory help it feel nicer than any machine i’ve used before). Although I was somewhat surprised it ships mono, tomboy and f-spot, even on a live cd-rom installation, but they were easily removed.

  8. David "Lefty" Schlesinger said,

    July 18, 2009 at 1:04 am

    Gravatar

    But you will no doubt be happy to hear, since you mentioned it, that the a few more lines of the form letter has a release candidate:
    2. who has been on public forums rediculing the GNU Operating System and

    That’s just fabulous, Chimp. There is no “GNU Operating System”, at least not one that usable. I use Linux.

    3. Has been on a crusade of attacking public speakers such as Richard M. Stallman

    No, I haven’t. I’ve criticized an inappropriate, sexually-loaded joked singling out women which Stallman felt it necessary to tell in the course of a keynote at a technical conference.

    Man, Chimp, I have to tell you: if you think you’re going to get any traction with that email campaign, you’re even stupider than I had initially thought. And that’s sayin’ somethin’.

    Oh, you left out, “He called me names!” Don’t forget that one, because we all know that’s the one that’s really bothering you, right, Shemp?

    Jose_X Reply:

    >> So don’t look for a lot of sympathy from me. It’s the way things are done around here, Roy sets the tone. Don’t like it here anymore? Leave. Ignore me. Whatever. You figure it out.

    The problem is that you bring the level of discourse down for everyone. Remember what you were saying about healthy debate? You are adding to that toxicity quite a bit at times.

    How did Ubuntu forums react to that Fink person?

    [I came back inside my house to post this, but this time I'm out of here and not coming back for a while.]

    Roy Schestowitz Reply:

    Jose_X,

    I’d rather you didn’t feed the Schlesingers.

    Chips_B_Malroy Reply:

    Roy,
    Its been pointed out to me, that I went over the line by posting phone numbers of a certain company here, from a public website. While I know there is no censorship here, if you feel that I did wrong, then please remove it. My actions are my own, therefore I claim full responcibility for them. Crayons and all.

    David "Lefty" Schlesinger Reply:

    I’d rather you stopped lying about things, but that doesn’t seem to have much effect…

    “Never say die. I’ve tried it, and things won’t die just because you tell them to.”

    Jose_X Reply:

    Lefty, you swing wildly and have no problem punching below the belt. It gets annoying after a while.

    [Lefty] >> You have to be kidding me, Jose. I’m not bringing the “level of discourse” down, because it didn’t exist in the first place.

    I did not realize I could disagree so much with your opinions. It doesn’t take much of an IQ to realize there is and has always been plenty of discourse here.

    [Lefty] >> Do you own damned research, and stop trying to waste my time, Jose.

    In other words, they took some sort of action to remove or neutralize the troublemaker. [I'm not going to bother to look that one up. If this guess is wrong, that should prod you to enlighten me.]

    [Roy] >> I’d rather you didn’t feed the Schlesingers

    The guy can be a fool — David “Hyde” Schlesinger. His problem is that when he is right he is right and when he is wrong he is right. In his mind anyway.

    >> And, to the best of my knowledge, none of them were actually there.

    And those that had problems don’t appear to know Stallman very well. [I'm not saying I do.]

    Your email postings were garbage. You resolved nothing. You did your best to alienate Stallman, so you could sort of get to your conclusion. That’s how I interpret it. Pardon my interpretation. [Ha! "pardon my interpretation". That was a roar.]

    >> Don’t you get it, Jose? What he intended is immaterial. It’s the effect that matters. If I intend to pat you on the back and I knock you down three flights of stairs instead, do you still feel good about that?

    If your intention was to pat me on the back, I would not come after you with vengeance. Or worse, go harass your friends.

    Say, have you resolved your issue with Roy? Any remaining issues you have? If you are simply going to hang around here insulting people and hogging up the database connections with no further legitimate issues, I would like to know as soon as possible.

    >> About all the folks who want to say it’s about Mono and about patents and who want to conduct polls to figure out the meaning of a pair of sentences comprising 34 words and determine if those of us who were actually present at this keynote were authentically offended enough? No, I’m much more disgusted with them.

    You need to get yourself back to school if necessary or open a book if you think that what insults one person insults the next.

    Of course if the world revolves around Hyde and Hyde is always correct.. but it doesn’t. I am more disappointed and annoyed with you than I was before (that must have hurt you so much because I know how much I am hurt at your disgust).

    It’s funny how you came here not long ago talking about defamation lawsuits. Surely, you need big Uncle Sam to fight your fights for you, eh? Wasn’t your message to Shrimp (sorry) a short time ago not to look towards third parties for help?

    It’s fun to swing a little wildly every so often, but please make it clear that this is what you came here to do and will continue to do.

    [I won't have time to post again (in lieu of sleep) until much later.]

    David "Lefty" Schlesinger Reply:

    Your email postings were garbage. You resolved nothing. You did your best to alienate Stallman, so you could sort of get to your conclusion. That’s how I interpret it.

    I’m unsurprised to see that your previous statements on how important it was to be open and welcoming, blah, blah, blah, were indeed a load of crap, as I suggested. You don’t believe any of that stuff, Jose. You were just trying to suck up to me, insincerely.

    I would suggest, since you seem to be a regular denizen of this swamp, that–like the others, like Roy, like the Chimp–you folks have started from an axiomatic basis that “Richard Stallman can do no wrong.”

    This leads to the corollary, expressed several times by the Chump and others, that Stallman may not be criticized.

    Sorry, Jose, it’s just not the case. Stallman is a human being, just like you,just like me.

    If he does something like tell a pointless and sexist joke, with a sexually-loaded message (“We have a holy duty to relieve her of her virginity”), offending many people and in particular making many women in the audience upset and uncomfortable–and reasonably so–that’s wrong. It’s wrong, Jose. It’s wrong if i do it, it’s wrong if you do it, it’s wrong if Stallman does it.

    If someone, especially someone in a position of authority–we’re talking about the “leader of the Free Software movement”, right?–uses that authority to divide people, to offend people, to make people feel unsafe (as Chani expressed–did you even read Chani’s comment, Jose? I don’t think so) that’s doubly wrong.

    And there’s nothing wrong with criticizing that. What’s wrong is that thanks to the attitudes you folks are expressing–that Stallman is somehow untouchable, no matter what–he’s been doing exactly the same thing, denigrating women, offending people, making people uncomfortable, dissuading people from participating in FLOSS development, for a decade or more.

    And you folks use that to justify not criticizing now. “Well, he’s been doing it for a long time, why are you complaining now?” Because that’s when I saw it. If I’d seen it a decade ago, I like to think I’d have complained then, too.

    My emails weren’t “garbage”, Jose–and I have to inform you at this point that you’re about as credible an attack dog as you are a comedian–they were to the point, reasoned, poilte and respectful. There’s no question about that, and you can scream about how awful they were all day long, but you’re simply making things up.

    I didn’t force Stallman to reply in the way he did, Jose. As I’ve pointed out, a simple and gracious apology from him could not only have avoided all of this, but could have left him with a better image than he had before. But evidently–”Naturally my answers reflect my own priorities”–it’s much more important for Stallman to be able to “poke gentle fun” at Catholicism than to give even a little consideration to the folks with whom he’s attempting to communicate.

    He denied that anyone was really offended (although there’s plenty of contrary evidence), he asserted that he was the victim here (victim of what? email?) and he flat-out refused to even consider an apology. That’s what really upsets people, Jose. Stallman doesn’t even understand what he’s done, apparently. His “harmless little joke” is more important to him that the audience he’s telling it to.

    And you folks all pile on, refusing to even seriously consider that there’s a problem here. His joke is more important to you than the feelings of the audience. Remember, the audience there is the folks who do the work. If women becomes disgusted as a result of that joke and goes to work on proprietary software instead, that’s resources that are lost to the FLOSS community. All so Stallman can get to tell his witless joke.

    Your “interpretation” is flawed: the conclusion I was seeking was that Stallman understand what the problem was, and offer an apology. His response, however, was about as insensitive as the joke was, essentially, “I’m the victim, I’m offended, tell ‘em it was about religion.” No one much cares that it was “about religion” and no one cares that he’s ridiculing the “Cult of the Virgin Mary”. It still came off as sexually-charged and aimed squarely at the (few) women in the audience.

    If I “accomplished nothing” with Stallman–I seem to have accomplished some things with (and for) the people I’m more concerned about, the actual FLOSS community, the ones you’ve never met ’cause you’re so busy “advocating”–it’s because of his stubbornness, his lack of empathy, and his arrogance. Again, I didn’t make him respond that way, I simply reported it.

    You folks, who seem to somehow worship Stallman and labor under the axiom that he can Do No Wrong, get yourselves in a twist because I’m “making him look bad”. That’s untrue: he made himself look bad. He could’ve made himself look good and I explained exactly how. But he didn’t do that.

    So, to protect your deity, you folks start scurrying around like a nest of hornets that someone’s poked a stick at. The anonymous backlash, most of it horrifying, on my blog, the multiple attempts at diversion (“It’s really about Mono, it’s really about software patents, it’s really” (according to Willy, anyway) “because I conceived some grudge against Stallman in 1974 and have been lying in wait ever since, looking for my opportunity”…), all of the crazy umbrage being expressed here, as exemplified by the Chimp’s craven and cowardly effort at a little “campaign of terror”, posting the contact information of my employer in the hopes that someone else would call them and “get me in trouble”, thus shutting my extremely inconvenient (and heretical?) mouth up.

    Won’t happen, call ‘em all you want. You won’t hurt me, but you will annoy me, and I’ll take it out on this web site in general and on Roy in particular. We’re off to the races on that, by the way.

    So if you want to spin your little conspiracy theories, you’ll have more grist. Have at it.

    The fact is, I’m doing the right thing here. You folks are doing the wrong thing (but you’ve been doing the wrong thing pretty much as long as I’ve been aware of the cesspool, which is one of the reasons I’ll be quite happy to be the one who takes it offline forever).

    So, in summary, Jose, I dispute your assertions, and I sneer at your “interpretation”. After all, you couldn’t even manage to interpret Stallman’s words without a video, and a transcript and a poll. (Holy cats, Jose, did you actually think I was going to either fall for, or be pleased, with that suggestion? You are a dunce.)

    I’m not worried about you jackals. You can’t hurt my reputation among the people who matter–like the folks I’m going to be spending today and tomorrow with at the Community Leadership Summit, where I expect Stallman and sexism in the FLOSS community will be a big subject of discussion.

    (That’s right, Jose. I know it’ll gall you and make you grind your teeth but I am a community leader. You’re not. Roy isn’t. You guys aren’t because you’re not actually part of the community; you’re a bunch of parasitical hangers-on who are actively damaging to the community.)

    You folks are a bunch of thugs, Jose, a cadre of pasty-faced terrorists. And the funniest part is that when someone finally shows up here, and starts playing your game, but from the other side, you completely freak out.

    I’m not doing anything here that you haven’t done, that Roy hasn’t done, that WIlly hasn’t done–the difference is that I don’t need to tell lies to do it. Smacking you around with the truth is a lot more satisfying, believe me.

    So, don’t tell me I’m mean; if you guys weren’t so flagrantly out of hand here, there’d be no need for me to be. Don’t tell me I’m offending people; I want to offend you. Don’t tell me I should be nicer; I Am Not A Nice Guy. Don’t tell me that I shouldn’t criticize Stallman; I enjoy Freedom of Speech (remember “freedom”?) and I can say what I want as long as it’s truthful (and this is where Roy goes off the rails, repeatedly and disastrously).

    So don’t try to appeal to what you imagine is my Better Nature, Jose: I save that for the people I respect, and I don’t respect you lot because you’re completely unworthy of it.

    Say, have you resolved your issue with Roy? Any remaining issues you have?

    Oh, no, Jose, not at all. I’ve come to the conclusion that my issues with Roy are insoluble outside of a courtroom. That’s because Roy is a pathological liar and completely untrustworthy. So, I expect he’ll be meeting me in court sometime in the next year, sooner rather than later if it’s up to me. And trust me, I will happily fly to the UK, on my own dime, to deal with him.

    And when he does meet me, I’ll have sworn statements from folks like Jeff Waugh, Jimmi Hugh, Jo Shields, and everyone else I can find who’s been defamed by Roy and would like to have a piece of him. This is not an idle threat, I’m not kidding around. Roy abandoned his journalistic privilege when the truth became a “lower priority” for him than producing more lies. And since he’s unquestionably dealt with me in bad faith, the court will, I imagine, not be kind to him.

    Remember: it was Roy’s ham-fisted attempt to link my criticism of Stallman with his own criticism of Mono and cook up this myth that I’m a “crypto Mono advocate” that brought me back here. That proved to be a suggestion for which even Roy had to admit he could find absolutely no evidence. (Shemp got him a little excited there, when he lied about having read a lot of pro-Mono stuff on my web site, but that’s just Shemp, he tells stupid and easily disproven lies–much like Roy.)

    So, ultimately, you’ve got no one to blame but yourselves for my presence here. And by dumping al that anonymous crap into my blog comments (and yes, I hold the denizens of this swamp largely responsible, deal with it), you’ve made it clear that the problem exemplified by Stallman’s insensitivity, arrogance and recalcitrance, is a much larger problem in the community.

    David "Lefty" Schlesinger Reply:

    Controversial? Check.
    Inflammatory? Check.
    Irrelevant? Check.
    Off-topic? Check.

    Stop trolling your own site, Roy.

    Jose_X Reply:

    David, I have to show some passion on these boards. I’ve been feeling left out a little.

    >> I’m unsurprised to see that your previous statements on how important it was to be open and welcoming, blah, blah, blah, were indeed a load of crap, as I suggested. You don’t believe any of that stuff, Jose. You were just trying to suck up to me, insincerely.

    Incorrect.

    No, I was quite honest, but you kept punching below the belt. [With this in mind, read the prior statement at the top.]

    >> I would suggest, since you seem to be a regular denizen of this swamp, that–like the others, like Roy, like the Chimp–you folks have started from an axiomatic basis that “Richard Stallman can do no wrong.”

    Incorrect again. I hold no such axiom. I’ll give you the swamp, alligator, but who is Chimp?

    >> Sorry, Jose, it’s just not the case. Stallman is a human being, just like you,just like me.

    Absolutely. Say. Have you been taking ideas from my comments? http://boycottnovell.com/2009/07/13/mono-vs-richard-stallman-tactic/comment-page-1/#comment-69731
    http://boycottnovell.com/2009/07/15/mono-moonlight-novell-intersection/comment-page-1/#comment-70367

    >> If he does something like tell a pointless and sexist joke, with a sexually-loaded message (”We have a holy duty to relieve her of her virginity”), offending many people and in particular making many women in the audience upset and uncomfortable–and reasonably so–that’s wrong. It’s wrong, Jose. It’s wrong if i do it, it’s wrong if you do it, it’s wrong if Stallman does it.

    It’s possibly wrong depending on what he meant.

    Very likely it was a miscalculation.

    I personally think the anti-religious thing is another bit that might give him some problems if he takes his comedy routine prime time.

    You are really having problem with this satire thing. I tried to explain more carefully before. You are likely going to have people get offended, even assuming you meant nothing sexists or offensive (Stallman said he meant no offense in his email.. that doesn’t fix things, but you keep ignoring that bit), if the delivery doesn’t come out correctly. Stallman doesn’t appear to be a world class comedian (it’s tough to get to that level). A joke like that coming out dry makes him look like a cook perhaps (add other adjectives as you wish). That’s the risk people take when they try to do niche(can’t remember adjective I want) comedy in front of the wrong audience. In front of the right audience it works. That’s probably why he has kept this up over the years.

    Women are underrepresented. This means it’s easy for them to have limited feedback (provide adequate checks/balances). This is not a good joke to have backfire (or perhaps to want to attempt under most circumstances) if you care about the women listeners.

    Hey, maybe Stallman is horribly rude and sexist by many standards. I don’t know, but I would not assume sexism from what might be no more than a misperformance.

    He states:
    >> I have presented St IGNUcius with Catholic priests in the audience, and it did not offend them.

    Did you take five seconds to think about this line he wrote you in his email reply? The whole performance is against religion in some ways. The whole performance.

    You are taking the line in there out of context.

    I don’t like the line the way he made it sound, but it can work if done properly. Maybe he did do it properly because if you know Stallman, maybe that is how he particularly cues sarcasm. You might not know if you don’t know him well or if you aren’t willing to look at the performance through those spectacles. [Trust me, you have to be light minded to accept humor many times.]

    “It is my job here to rip the skin off people like Lefty that come here to post positive about mono.”

    This is an allusion to your “guard dog” comment coming up. The line was intended to be humorous (you have your glasses on, right?). Another slight clue is that you aren’t talking about mono and likely would even get annoyed if I stated so. I might follow the line with something else that more clearly suggests humor of some sort.

    I think Stallman may not realize the impact this is likely to have on some women when the delivery doesn’t work (or maybe even when it works??).

    Maybe numerous women who have heard this repeatedly and know him don’t feel threatened at all. [Poll time]

    It is a statistical truism that among sexually incompetent virgin “sensitive” male geeks, no women in her right mind would feel intimidated no matter how many times the boys get on chairs beat their chests and shout out the word “rape”. It’s true. ;-)

    PS: I’m opting to post instead of sleep. I can’t sleep right now even if I will pay for the transgression later tonight.

    Jose_X Reply:

    >> ..to make people feel unsafe (as Chani expressed–did you even read Chani’s comment, Jose? I don’t think so) that’s doubly wrong.

    Incorrect on the “I don’t think so”. http://boycottnovell.com/2009/07/15/mono-moonlight-novell-intersection/comment-page-1/#comment-70384

    I read her comment multiple times here and, prior to that, elsewhere (in someone’s blog of a few days back criticizing your position and waiting for the youtube video).

    >> uses that authority to divide people, to offend people .. And there’s nothing wrong with criticizing that. What’s wrong is that thanks to the attitudes you folks are expressing–that Stallman is somehow untouchable, no matter what–he’s been doing exactly the same thing, denigrating women, offending people, making people uncomfortable, dissuading people from participating in FLOSS development, for a decade or more.

    Are we talking about Stallman or about you?

    Did you make fun of Chimp because you knew she was a girl? [pretend you're a girl, "Chimp"]

    Did you dissuade people from participating in FLOSS devel while you were at Apple?

    We know you have high stature in the community (cough). Do we ever know!

    Some of your remarks on this website in the last couple of days suggest you you might see yourself as near untouchable.

    Offend ..make people uncomfortable.. check ..check.

    >> My emails weren’t “garbage”, Jose–and I have to inform you at this point that you’re about as credible an attack dog as you are a comedian–they were to the point, reasoned, poilte and respectful.

    Attack dog? I would have bit your arse a long while ago. No, clearly I’m not an attack dog.

    Lefty, don’t get your head bubbly over earlier comments I may have made. You’ve demonstrated great control of the language and decent humor here and there, but I don’t think you want to be criticizing other’s comedy too harshly. [That was a cue for something witty from your end.. if I can't dish it, maybe I can be served.]

    I said this: “Your email postings were garbage.”

    I was not focusing on the emails but on the overall analysis and presentation done on your blog.

    For reference, here is most of what Stallman said:

    ***
    The Cult of the Virgin of Emacs, like the rest of the Church of Emacs, is meant to poke fun at religion and at myself. I think that you and some others have misunderstood it.

    >While no one insists that you agree with or subscribe to
    > a particular religion, people are every bit as entitled to
    > their own beliefs as you are to your lack of them,

    Yes, they are. Are you accusing me of wishing to deny them these rights? If so, you do me wrong. I defend religious freedom as strongly as anyone.

    However, freedom of religion the freedom to criticize religious views. No human views are off limits to criticism, or joking. People have a right to criticize religion directly, or to ridicule it harshly.

    However, St IGNUcius does neither of those; at most it makes gentle fun of religion, tangentially. There is no reason for religious people to take offense at that. I have presented St IGNUcius with Catholic priests in the audience, and it did not offend them.

    …[skip the I don't need to do no stinking apology paragraph]

    I am concerned about this reported hostile reaction. But I am not sure what to make of it, since it goes against nearly all the rest of my experience. I have had very few negative reactions to St IGNUcius in the past; the only one I can remember was from someone who was hostile to begin with. So this seems like an anomalous case. I don’t understand why it happened.

    You said that you “heard it echoed, over and over”, but how many people actually had this reaction? Maybe it was a few people who started a lot of conversations.

    … [skip to next email]

    The cult of the Virgin of Emacs is simply intended as a joke about the cult of the Virgin Mary. I assure anyone who perceived derogatory meanings in it that I did not intend them.
    ***

    I don’t see your conclusion. In fact, each of your two emails assume guilt and wrongness and never back from that despite Stallman saying that in years of doing this he has not had that sort of reaction.

    >> I have presented St IGNUcius with Catholic priests in the audience, and it did not offend them.

    >> I assure anyone who perceived derogatory meanings in it that I did not intend them.

    >> But I am not sure what to make of it, since it goes against nearly all the rest of my experience.

    >> I have had very few negative reactions to St IGNUcius in the past; the only one I can remember was from someone who was hostile to begin with. So this seems like an anomalous case. I don’t understand why it happened.

    Again, there is too little to go on here to know what Stallman intended.

    For example, if we take his word and recounting of the past, he intended no ill will and had little reason to believe he would be misunderstood.

    On ther other hand, recently on a blog, someone recounted of an experience years back where allegedly Stallman treated her rudely during a presentation by pointing her out at the moment of the virgin and saying something related.

    I think you failed to make your case. You didn’t get to the bottom of this. You got on the offensive from the start (pre-judged “guilty”) and didn’t budge from that. You ignored many things Stallman said because he didn’t utter those magic words ["I apologize"], the only words which could undo the verdict.

    – Did mono have anything to do with this –

    David, something is in your head for you to pick on Stallman this way and now. Some people think it’s Stallman’s recent words on csharp, MCP, etc.

    It’s very possible you were simply willing to take the opportunity afforded you at the conference, and any related timing of FSF patent talk would be coincidental. [Unless, Microsoft helped set the table and prodded people .. oooooohhhh.]

    Roy Schestowitz Reply:

    IMHO, the only one discouraging women from participating in FOSS is Schlesinger, by wrongly insinuating that Stallman’s joke was intended to be taken as a serious statement.

    Jose_X Reply:

    >> I didn’t force Stallman to reply in the way he did, Jose. As I’ve pointed out, a simple and gracious apology from him could not only have avoided all of this

    See ending of my last posting above this one. ["You didn’t get to the bottom of this. You got on the offensive from the start (pre-judged “guilty”) and didn’t budge from that. "]

    “Guilty is the charge, your honor.”

    “Does Guilty Man wish to grovel before the court for leniency?”

    >> But evidently–”Naturally my answers reflect my own priorities”–it’s much more important for Stallman to be able to “poke gentle fun” at Catholicism than to give even a little consideration to the folks with whom he’s attempting to communicate.

    Evidently, I once again disagree with your assessment.

    Let’s quote Stallman:

    ***
    > I’m honestly a little surprised–amazed, really–that
    > you managed to completely ignore the three central
    > paragraphs which I identified as being the core of my
    > concerns, choosing instead to focus on the side issue of
    > the anti-religious bent of your “St. IGNUcius” routine.

    I did respond to the other points, just more briefly.

    >> The remarks came across as thoughtless, inconsiderate
    >> and sexist–again, this is not simply my own opinion, but
    >> one which I’ve heard echoed…
    >
    > I do not believe I owe anyone an apology. I did not insult or
    > attack them, but it is clear some people are attacking me….

    Thus, I think your criticism of my response is inaccurate. However, my response naturally reflected my own priorities.
    ***

    Note, the continuation at the bottom (“thus”). The bottom statement shows that Stallman answered your initial question with a focus that made sense to him. In other words, focusing on religion vs. focusing on the short bit about females/virgins that you wanted.

    The latter episode might (in his opinion perhaps) fall under the former.

    Maybe he didn’t think the virgin part had anything wrong.

    Or perhaps instead he is sexist in some ways.

    In any case, it sure doesn’t sound to me that his “priorities” remark was at all meant as you suggest above: that his priority is jokes over people.

    >> He denied that anyone was really offended (although there’s plenty of contrary evidence)

    Plenty of evidence in your email? At the time of your brief exchange? I thought mind-reading was optional? One male with an attitude corresponded with him at that moment. Hoards of angry and disappointed people almost surely had not.

    For reference, Stallman said: “how many people actually had this reaction? Maybe it was a few people who started a lot of conversations.”

    He also said:

    >> I have presented St IGNUcius with Catholic priests in the audience, and it did not offend them.

    >> I assure anyone who perceived derogatory meanings in it that I did not intend them.

    >> But I am not sure what to make of it, since it goes against nearly all the rest of my experience.

    >> I have had very few negative reactions to St IGNUcius in the past; the only one I can remember was from someone who was hostile to begin with. So this seems like an anomalous case. I don’t understand why it happened.

    I think he provided his evidence. Did you provide yours along with your guilty verdict?

    >> he asserted that he was the victim here (victim of what? email?)

    So Stallman himself felt like his character was being assassinated to some degree.

    Let’s go slowly to see what this implies.

    You, David, argued with us here that you were not assassinating Stallman’s character.

    But the affected third party felt otherwise. He stated so.

    And yet you still hold that you aren’t CA? How could this be? Where is the consistency?

    I thought when a third party interprets something, from the primary party, that the third party is the correct one.

    I mean, isn’t Stallman wrong, rude, etc because some audience members claim they were insulted?

    Well, clearly then, Lefty has been assassinating Stallman’s character because Stallman sure thought so. That is how Stallman interpreted Lefty’s actions, and we know this means http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hanged,_drawn_and_quartered for you, my dear wicked Lefty.

    >> That’s what really upsets people, Jose. Stallman doesn’t even understand what he’s done, apparently. His “harmless little joke” is more important to him that the audience he’s telling it to.

    Ah, you reach back to the misinterpretation discussed above of “Naturally my answers reflect my own priorities” in order to say that Stallman cares more about jokes than people.

    Faulty and sneaky, Lefty. Faulty and sneaky http://boycottnovell.com/2009/07/15/mono-moonlight-novell-intersection/comment-page-1/#comment-70293

    Here is how little he cares about his apparently typical audience. You can hear the screams if you listen carefully: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=25ejlP0uWeI

    >> And you folks all pile on, refusing to even seriously consider that there’s a problem here.

    Your conclusion just doesn’t pan out for me.

    There is an important part of this, but it isn’t the Stallman “character assassination” bit.

    >> His joke is more important to you than the feelings of the audience.

    In the youtube video I saw (link above), I found myself very sensitive to the audience. What are you talking about?

    Seriously, you are incorrect, again. Have you considered leaving the robe behind for a dress more fitting to your talents? — now THAT was a sexist joke!

    Alright, seriously now, the audience has hardly been on your lips/pen (or ours). It’s been Stallman this Stallman that, you and Stallman sitting in a tree, blah blah blah Stallman.

    Set a better example for us, David. You’re the torch bearer (for now anyway).

    >> If women becomes disgusted as a result of that joke and goes to work on proprietary software instead, that’s resources that are lost to the FLOSS community.

    I’m sure some women will be taken aback by those preaching FOSS and patents, come to the conclusion that FOSS is not safe without paying for protection, and “[go] to work on proprietary software instead, that’s resources that are lost to the FLOSS community.”

    >> the conclusion I was seeking was that Stallman understand what the problem was, and offer an apology.

    You did a horrible job. He made it clear right away that he had not witnessed this sort of reply before. That part went right over your head.

    But you just wouldn’t accept anything but that magic apology as a way to cleanse his soul and avoid damnation.

    >> No one much cares that it was “about religion” and no one cares that he’s ridiculing the “Cult of the Virgin Mary”. It still came off as sexually-charged and aimed squarely at the (few) women in the audience.

    Apparently, “no one” much cares about very much.

    Still, judging from what he stated at his kangaroo trial, it seems he would likely apologize or try to reassure anyone that honestly when to him with concerns. I mean, he told you this much. Were you listening? Were you open to different magic words?

    Abracapology or he be damned, right?

    Jose_X Reply:

    I have to go now, but I’ll likely return later tonight or sometime tomorrow. I might want to look at more of his comment.

    Jose_X Reply:

    I had to log in to comment. New rules I guess.

    “It is my job to relieve you of your virginity.”

    I don’t see myself saying that to a stranger or to a friend (to someone that would recognize I might be playing), but in each case for different reasons.

    In each case though, the problem is related to my personal views towards sex (I’m single, btw, and this affects my perspective or lack of it). What they say about YMMV applies here. Other people might be more relaxed about this.

    Now, the situation we are discussing goes further. It has the element of a group ganging up …no scratch that.

    I think the problem isn’t as much with sexism (as a parody on Cult of Virgin Mary — Mary was female), as it is with some level of rudeness/threat perhaps.

    In any case, individuals can certainly feel offended. I stay away from certain types of “jokes” because the likelihood of offense might be high. I do wish I had more feedback about this from ladies rather than from guys. Part of the problem is that mainstream people might just find the whole thing ridiculous and/or have close to zero chance of being amused at all by any of it.

    Anyway, I’m having trouble with this. People’s cultural background (and I am thinking of females) has a lot to do how they might feel about such a “joke” given the context. I don’t know about the US, but probably in many cultures, this comment would be considered disrespectful/threatening to women (but that would be ignoring the spoof aspect).

    David "Lefty" Schlesinger Reply:

    The problem is that you bring the level of discourse down for everyone.

    You have to be kidding me, Jose. I’m not bringing the “level of discourse” down, because it didn’t exist in the first place.

    How did Ubuntu forums react to that Fink person?

    Why don’t you get your lazy derriere onto the internet and look up the mailing list and read it and find out for yourself? I told you, after that wild goose chase with the video and transcript (“Now that we have the video, we can show it to people and take a poll!”, you dolt) I wasn’t extending myself on your behalf any more. Do you own damned research, and stop trying to waste my time, Jose.

    Lefty Reply:

    journalism Ethics and Standards

    * Corrections are published when errors are discovered
    * Reporting the truth is never libel, which makes accuracy very important.
    * Private persons have privacy rights that must be balanced against the public interest in reporting information about them. Public figures have fewer privacy rights in U.S. law, where reporters are immune from a civil case if they have reported without malice. In Canada, there is no such immunity; reports on public figures must be backed by facts.
    * Publishers vigorously defend libel lawsuits filed against their reporters, usually covered by libel insurance.

    Of course, you don’t have a publisher, do you, Roy? And I’ll bet any amount of money you don’t have libel insurance: no one who took a three-minute walk through this site would ever write you a policy…

    Lefty Reply:

    I said this: “Your email postings were garbage.”

    That’s right, you did. Evidently you were confused. Not unusual for you, Jose.

    I was not focusing on the emails…

    Oh, silly me! You talked about emails, and I thought you were talking about emails! Wow. Now, I feel silly.

    Do you read this stuff after you write it? Do you think you’re making sense or something?

    …but on the overall analysis and presentation done on your blog.

    Is that so?

    Well, since I did no analysis, had only a very brief introductory paragraph saying “I wrote Stallman, here are the emails” and an equally brief closing paragraph, and since that was pretty much the presentation, WHAT IN THE WORLD ARE YOU MUMBLING ABOUT, JOSE?

    Get lost. Go take a poll.

  9. David "Lefty" Schlesinger said,

    July 18, 2009 at 2:23 am

    Gravatar

    Its been pointed out to me, that I went over the line by posting phone numbers of a certain company here, from a public website. While I know there is no censorship here, if you feel that I did wrong, then please remove it. My actions are my own, therefore I claim full responcibility for them. Crayons and all.

    Oh, feeling suddenly contrite? Pangs of conscience? Well, Roy won’t take it down, he’ll leave it up because the idea of your putrid and cowardly little wish to have “somebody else make the call” is something that appeals to Roy, you and he have that combination of cowardice and vindictiveness in common.

    Man, you’re really something, Chimp. I don’t know what, but something.

    Chips_B_Malroy Reply:

    Lefty,
    Not pangs of conscience at all. But this is not my site, and this site does not censor. Roy might not take them done for the simple fact that it is censoring. Plus its quite late. I would argue that posting public company website is fine. But Jose-X thought they were private, or else should have been. Its only because of her intervention, that I asked.

    Mind you, nothing else has changed between you and me. You need to chill out, and get some of the hate out of your life.

    David "Lefty" Schlesinger Reply:

    …But this is not my site…

    Nope, it’s Roy’s for the moment. Might be mine by next year.

    I’m sure Roy’s touched by your concern, though. You’re a real piece of work, Shemp. “Hey, if I was the one who got Lefty exasperated enough to take down the whole web site, well, it’s not my web site, what do I care?”

    Nice.

    Hey, you going to tell me where you work, Shemp? I want some answers, too. Fair’s fair.

    …nothing else has changed between you and me…

    Well, I’m still not “worried”, and you’re still a lying, cowardly maggot who wants to get other people to do his inappropriate, out of line intimidation for him. None of that’s changed, Chimp.
    You need to chill out, and get some of the hate out of your life.

    David "Lefty" Schlesinger Reply:

    Oh, hey, be sure to leave your real name, Chump, and some contact information when you speak to my boss, hm?

  10. NymShift said,

    July 18, 2009 at 9:05 am

    Gravatar

    You’ve been outed Roy, great. Lets hope you learn a lesson from this, but I doubt you will.

    Facts and lessons are not your strong points.

    FUD and lies are. I hope you get everything you deserve and so much more ontop.

    Im glad most of the FOSS community also see you for the sad peice of crap you are.

    I would love to call your boss and get you fired, but you dont have a job so thats impossible.

    And your mommy will always love you, and give you a nice warm basement to live it until your 45.

    Lefty Reply:

    He’s not going to have much left aside from that warm basement when I finish with him.

    Hey, did you know that if you are the defendant in a libel case in the UK, the burden of proof is 100%on you? If you publish something I think is false and defamatory, you are obligated to prove that it’s true.

    That’s pretty neat, huh, Roy? It looks as though I don’t even have to prove it’s defamatory! (Although that would be trivial to demonstrate…)

    Oops, Roy.

  11. zooquack said,

    July 18, 2009 at 3:45 pm

    Gravatar

    I think Roy Schestowitz is having a bad day.
    Poor Roy.
    Poor, poor Roy.

  12. Lefty said,

    July 19, 2009 at 3:20 pm

    Gravatar

    Roy hasn’t seen anything yet. He’s going to look back on this with fond recollection.

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