Join us now at the IRC channel.
| *liberty_box has quit (*.net *.split) | Aug 21 07:38 | |
| *schestowitz has quit (*.net *.split) | Aug 21 07:38 | |
| *liberty_box (~liberty@host81-154-173-175.range81-154.btcentralplus.com) has joined #boycottnovell | Aug 21 07:43 | |
| *schestowitz (~schestowi@unaffiliated/schestowitz) has joined #boycottnovell | Aug 21 07:43 | |
| *cherryh.freenode.net gives channel operator status to schestowitz | Aug 21 07:43 | |
| schestowitz | > (2) Expand our diversity recruitment programs specifically targeting women, people of color, and LGBT people with the goal of doubling recruitment of these groups in 2017 and steadily increasing the share of these groups as a proportion of new hiring in subsequent years. | Aug 21 07:50 |
|---|---|---|
| schestowitz | Initiatives like this worry me that we'll end up like my previous employer where we were off-the-record instructed not to hire a white male for our open position. | Aug 21 07:50 |
| schestowitz | reply | Aug 21 07:50 |
| schestowitz | Aug 21 07:50 | |
| schestowitz | Aug 21 07:50 | |
| schestowitz | bluedevil2k 17 hours ago [–] | Aug 21 07:50 |
| schestowitz | I'm a former IBM'er and I remember a presentation 14 years ago in front of 500 people by a higher up with a PowerPoint slide that said "We are actively looking to promote women and minorities to management". I saw this in action as a few older co-workers, 40'ish, white and male, were continually passed over for promotions to management. | Aug 21 07:50 |
| schestowitz | reply | Aug 21 07:50 |
| schestowitz | Aug 21 07:50 | |
| schestowitz | Aug 21 07:50 | |
| schestowitz | zerr 16 hours ago [–] | Aug 21 07:50 |
| schestowitz | Similar case here: we were instructed to lower the hiring bar to the minimum for female candidates. | Aug 21 07:50 |
| schestowitz | reply | Aug 21 07:50 |
| schestowitz | Aug 21 07:50 | |
| schestowitz | Aug 21 07:50 | |
| schestowitz | TeaDrunk 17 hours ago [–] | Aug 21 07:50 |
| schestowitz | Yes, “don’t hire white men” is a much different policy than “please increase your funnel and hire more non white cis hereto men”. I would argue your previous employer more or less just misses the point of these things. | Aug 21 07:50 |
| schestowitz | reply | Aug 21 07:50 |
| schestowitz | Aug 21 07:50 | |
| schestowitz | Aug 21 07:50 | |
| schestowitz | supergeek133 17 hours ago [–] | Aug 21 07:50 |
| schestowitz | But that's the whole issue. Policy versus practice. | Aug 21 07:50 |
| schestowitz | I'm usually hard pressed to find people who disagree with the thought of "we should try to hire people other than white men in a white men dominated profession". | Aug 21 07:50 |
| schestowitz | The issue comes when the unspoken (OP's "off the record") enforcement of this is willful hate towards those people. | Aug 21 07:50 |
| schestowitz | reply | Aug 21 07:50 |
| schestowitz | Aug 21 07:50 | |
| schestowitz | Aug 21 07:50 | |
| schestowitz | humanrebar 17 hours ago [–] | Aug 21 07:50 |
| schestowitz | I disagree that the existing diversity in tech is best described as "white". Tech has a lot of diversity. It's that some groups, especially women, are still underrepresented. | Aug 21 07:50 |
| schestowitz | reply | Aug 21 07:50 |
| schestowitz | Aug 21 07:50 | |
| schestowitz | Aug 21 07:50 | |
| schestowitz | bluedevil2k 16 hours ago [–] | Aug 21 07:50 |
| schestowitz | 18% of computer science majors in the US are women. 20% of the computer science jobs are held by women. How is that underrepresenting women? | Aug 21 07:51 |
| schestowitz | * - https://www.computerscience.org/resources/women-in-computer-... | Aug 21 07:51 |
| -TechrightsBN/#boycottnovell- ( status 404 @ https://www.computerscience.org/resources/women-in-computer- ) | Aug 21 07:51 | |
| schestowitz | reply | Aug 21 07:51 |
| schestowitz | Aug 21 07:51 | |
| schestowitz | Aug 21 07:51 | |
| schestowitz | Wolfenstein98k 16 hours ago [–] | Aug 21 07:51 |
| schestowitz | These people believe that men and women are identical (except for socialisation), and so any less than 51% representation is under-representation and evidence of sexism. | Aug 21 07:51 |
| schestowitz | reply | Aug 21 07:51 |
| schestowitz | Aug 21 07:51 | |
| schestowitz | Aug 21 07:51 | |
| schestowitz | asutekku 16 hours ago [–] | Aug 21 07:51 |
| schestowitz | There's zero reason why in computer science and tech women and men should have so drastically different ratios. Even back in the day programming was seen as a women's job. | Aug 21 07:51 |
| schestowitz | reply | Aug 21 07:51 |
| schestowitz | Aug 21 07:51 | |
| schestowitz | Aug 21 07:51 | |
| schestowitz | bluedevil2k 16 hours ago [–] | Aug 21 07:51 |
| schestowitz | Zero reason?? More opportunity in other traditionally male jobs like doctors, nurse pay has increased, tech jobs require longer hours than they used to, the opening of various CS-parallel fields like UX/UI design that don't count as computer science, more economic freedom for top earning families to not require 2 incomes. There are literally dozens of reasons why women's interest in CS might decrease. | Aug 21 07:51 |
| schestowitz | * - https://www.payscale.com/compensation-today/2020/05/for-nati... | Aug 21 07:51 |
| schestowitz | reply | Aug 21 07:51 |
| -TechrightsBN/#boycottnovell-www.payscale.com | For National Nurses Day, We Looked at Nurses' Wages in 2020 | Aug 21 07:51 | |
| schestowitz | Aug 21 07:51 | |
| schestowitz | Aug 21 07:51 | |
| schestowitz | TeaDrunk 16 hours ago [–] | Aug 21 07:51 |
| schestowitz | > more economic freedom for top earning families to not require 2 incomes | Aug 21 07:51 |
| schestowitz | Isn't this not actually true? More families are unable to avoid needing two incomes. | Aug 21 07:51 |
| schestowitz | reply | Aug 21 07:51 |
| schestowitz | Aug 21 07:51 | |
| schestowitz | Aug 21 07:51 | |
| schestowitz | Wolfenstein98k 16 hours ago [–] | Aug 21 07:51 |
| schestowitz | What ratio "should" they have then? What is the right ratio based on non-social causes, from which any deviation is evidence of bias or cultural sexism? | Aug 21 07:51 |
| schestowitz | reply | Aug 21 07:51 |
| schestowitz | Aug 21 07:51 | |
| schestowitz | Aug 21 07:51 | |
| schestowitz | supergeek133 16 hours ago [–] | Aug 21 07:51 |
| schestowitz | Pick whatever gender and/or race you like. That's just the most commonly used example. | Aug 21 07:51 |
| schestowitz | My point is just as in there have been and are people that are willfully malicious and ONLY hire white men/women, it seems we have a hard time accepting there will be some willfully malicious enforcement of a policy such as "we need to make an effort to hire more outside of a gender or race group". | Aug 21 07:51 |
| schestowitz | reply | Aug 21 07:51 |
| schestowitz | Aug 21 07:51 | |
| schestowitz | Aug 21 07:51 | |
| schestowitz | jfengel 10 hours ago [–] | Aug 21 07:51 |
| schestowitz | Indeed. It's very easy for people to say, "I'm sorry there's systemic discrimination against you, but it's your problem. Any solution that might affect me -- or somebody like me -- is discrimination against me, and that's unacceptable." | Aug 21 07:51 |
| schestowitz | That doesn't make quotas the right solution. More creativity is required, and varies by situation. Which is why I always bristle at the outright rejection of calls for hiring a more diverse group of people without even pretending propose alternatives. Reinforcing the status quo means perpetuating the racism, sexism, etc. | Aug 21 07:52 |
| schestowitz | reply | Aug 21 07:52 |
| schestowitz | Aug 21 07:52 | |
| schestowitz | Aug 21 07:52 | |
| schestowitz | raxxorrax 16 hours ago [–] | Aug 21 07:52 |
| schestowitz | But these people are the only racists you will find in general hiring, so here discrimination would make sense. | Aug 21 07:52 |
| schestowitz | reply | Aug 21 07:52 |
| schestowitz | Aug 21 07:52 | |
| schestowitz | Aug 21 07:52 | |
| schestowitz | AlexTWithBeard 16 hours ago [–] | Aug 21 07:52 |
| schestowitz | How about "we should try to hire more asian men in black women dominated fields"? | Aug 21 07:52 |
| schestowitz | reply | Aug 21 07:52 |
| schestowitz | Aug 21 07:52 | |
| schestowitz | Aug 21 07:52 | |
| schestowitz | TeaDrunk 16 hours ago [–] | Aug 21 07:52 |
| schestowitz | Equivalencies do exist. There’s a large push to have more men in fields such as nursing and child care. | Aug 21 07:52 |
| schestowitz | reply | Aug 21 07:52 |
| schestowitz | Aug 21 07:52 | |
| schestowitz | Aug 21 07:52 | |
| schestowitz | AlexTWithBeard 16 hours ago [–] | Aug 21 07:52 |
| schestowitz | I'm not to say there's no such push at all, but by no means I would call it large. | Aug 21 07:52 |
| schestowitz | reply | Aug 21 07:52 |
| schestowitz | Aug 21 07:52 | |
| schestowitz | Aug 21 07:52 | |
| schestowitz | TeaDrunk 16 hours ago [–] | Aug 21 07:52 |
| schestowitz | I mean I'm not even a nurse/not in childcare and I know about it, so it's certainly not fringe. | Aug 21 07:52 |
| schestowitz | reply | Aug 21 07:52 |
| schestowitz | Aug 21 07:52 | |
| schestowitz | Aug 21 07:52 | |
| schestowitz | AlexTWithBeard 16 hours ago [–] | Aug 21 07:52 |
| schestowitz | So. I've just googled "hire more men". In a private tab with a naive hope that google will get me out of whatever bubble it put me into. | Aug 21 07:52 |
| schestowitz | This is the first page: | Aug 21 07:52 |
| schestowitz | - why employers favor men | Aug 21 07:52 |
| schestowitz | - women outnumber men in the paid workforce | Aug 21 07:52 |
| schestowitz | - why employers favor men | Aug 21 07:52 |
| schestowitz | - women rehired less than men | Aug 21 07:52 |
| schestowitz | - if there is a real gender pay gap, why do firms hire men | Aug 21 07:52 |
| schestowitz | (I will spare the readers from remaining five links, but trust me, nothing groundbreaking was there) | Aug 21 07:52 |
| schestowitz | Again, this is not to say there's no push to hire men. It's just somewhere "in the bottom of a locked filing cabinet stuck in a disused lavatory with a sign on the door saying "Beware of the Leopard"." | Aug 21 07:52 |
| schestowitz | reply | Aug 21 07:52 |
| schestowitz | Aug 21 07:53 | |
| schestowitz | Aug 21 07:53 | |
| schestowitz | TeaDrunk 15 hours ago [–] | Aug 21 07:53 |
| schestowitz | So I also googled "hire more men" and I got on the first page 'should schools be trying to hire more men' and the first return was 'small companies hire more men to avoid maternity burden'. | Aug 21 07:53 |
| schestowitz | So I don't know how this proves anything either way. | Aug 21 07:53 |
| schestowitz | reply | Aug 21 07:53 |
| schestowitz | Aug 21 07:53 | |
| schestowitz | Aug 21 07:53 | |
| schestowitz | supergeek133 16 hours ago [–] | Aug 21 07:53 |
| schestowitz | Honest question I could probably google or something, but what are some "black women dominated fields"? | Aug 21 07:53 |
| schestowitz | reply | Aug 21 07:53 |
| schestowitz | Aug 21 07:53 | |
| schestowitz | Aug 21 07:53 | |
| schestowitz | TeaDrunk 15 hours ago [–] | Aug 21 07:53 |
| schestowitz | I would argue that beauty products catered specifically to kinky/extremely curly hair and deeper skin tend to be dominated by black women. (Issues to address: Ashiness of skin, undertone colors for foundation/concealer, hair needing to be well-moisturized) | Aug 21 07:53 |
| schestowitz | At least on my recent memory, when Fenty Beauty first came on the scene it blew up extremely fast, as it was one of the first major makeup companies specifically catering to non-beige skin colors... the company was founded by the artist Rihanna, who identifies as black. | Aug 21 07:53 |
| schestowitz | reply | Aug 21 07:53 |
| schestowitz | Aug 21 07:53 | |
| schestowitz | Aug 21 07:53 | |
| schestowitz | TeaDrunk 17 hours ago [–] | Aug 21 07:53 |
| schestowitz | Of course there is an issue when people miss the point and do stupid shit. That doesn’t mean we should stop trying to improve representation in one of if not the most fast growing, wealth-providing career fields. I’m utterly baffled by this argument that a case of one company missing the point means IBM shouldn’t even try. | Aug 21 07:53 |
| schestowitz | reply | Aug 21 07:53 |
| schestowitz | Aug 21 07:53 | |
| schestowitz | Aug 21 07:53 | |
| schestowitz | supergeek133 16 hours ago [–] | Aug 21 07:53 |
| schestowitz | IBM should try, everyone should try. | Aug 21 07:53 |
| schestowitz | But on the same side people just can't believe that the middle management and/or line level people responsible for some of these decisions are being malicious. | Aug 21 07:53 |
| schestowitz | reply | Aug 21 07:53 |
| schestowitz | Aug 21 07:53 | |
| schestowitz | Aug 21 07:53 | |
| schestowitz | TeaDrunk 16 hours ago [–] | Aug 21 07:53 |
| schestowitz | It's fine to call out malicious behavior I'm just confused by the argument that a stupid decision from company A means that company B shouldn't try to make a good decision. I'm even more confused by the concept that company A making a stupid decision means that every push to make a non-stupid decision must be suspected to be malicious. | Aug 21 07:53 |
| schestowitz | reply | Aug 21 07:53 |
| schestowitz | Aug 21 07:53 | |
| schestowitz | Aug 21 07:53 | |
| schestowitz | raxxorrax 16 hours ago [–] | Aug 21 07:53 |
| schestowitz | I do disagree with that. If white men happen to be there for some reason or another, it doesn't really matter. The likelihood that it is because of racism is minuscule. | Aug 21 07:53 |
| schestowitz | reply | Aug 21 07:53 |
| schestowitz | Aug 21 07:53 | |
| schestowitz | Aug 21 07:53 | |
| schestowitz | AlexTWithBeard 16 hours ago [–] | Aug 21 07:54 |
| schestowitz | Sorry, I'm not getting how "hire less white men" is different from "hire more non-white men"? | Aug 21 07:54 |
| schestowitz | reply | Aug 21 07:54 |
| schestowitz | Aug 21 07:54 | |
| schestowitz | Aug 21 07:54 | |
| schestowitz | apacheCamel 16 hours ago [–] | Aug 21 07:54 |
| schestowitz | The "Drink milk" campaign in my elementary school would be a good example. You should drink more milk, doesn't mean you should drink less water, or juice or whatever. It just means drink more milk. | Aug 21 07:54 |
| schestowitz | reply | Aug 21 07:54 |
| schestowitz | Aug 21 07:54 | |
| schestowitz | Aug 21 07:54 | |
| schestowitz | AlexTWithBeard 16 hours ago [–] | Aug 21 07:54 |
| schestowitz | Assuming that you can drink an infinite amount of liquid, yes. | Aug 21 07:54 |
| schestowitz | But in practice "drink more milk" means "drink less soda". | Aug 21 07:54 |
| schestowitz | reply | Aug 21 07:54 |
| schestowitz | Aug 21 07:54 | |
| schestowitz | Aug 21 07:54 | |
| schestowitz | apacheCamel 16 hours ago [–] | Aug 21 07:54 |
| schestowitz | >Assuming that you can drink an infinite amount of liquid, yes. | Aug 21 07:54 |
| schestowitz | You would also assume that people drink their "max quota" of drinks a day, thus being forced to eliminate something to make room. There's always room for milk my friend. | Aug 21 07:54 |
| schestowitz | reply | Aug 21 07:54 |
| schestowitz | Aug 21 07:54 | |
| schestowitz | Aug 21 07:54 | |
| schestowitz | Wolfenstein98k 16 hours ago [–] | Aug 21 07:54 |
| schestowitz | Those things are identical in practice. | Aug 21 07:54 |
| schestowitz | The request is to hire non-whites and/or non-men. | Aug 21 07:54 |
| schestowitz | The clearest way to enforce it is just to specify exactly that - it achieves the stated aims with no cognitive dissonance. | Aug 21 07:54 |
| schestowitz | reply | Aug 21 07:54 |
| schestowitz | Aug 21 07:54 | |
| schestowitz | Aug 21 07:54 | |
| schestowitz | stateofnounion 17 hours ago [–] | Aug 21 07:54 |
| schestowitz | It's already happening. | Aug 21 07:54 |
| schestowitz | reply | Aug 21 07:54 |
| schestowitz | Aug 21 07:54 | |
| schestowitz | Aug 21 07:54 | |
| schestowitz | teekert 17 hours ago [–] | Aug 21 07:54 |
| schestowitz | The technical University of Eindhoven (the Netherlands) announced they'd only hire women from a certain point in time on and they did for months. Then a judge called them back. In their defense, it was needed, almost all professors were male so I understand how they came to this action. Generally I think it is better to stimulate people to hire outside their comfort-zone and build heterogeneous teams in all dimensions. | Aug 21 07:54 |
| schestowitz | reply | Aug 21 07:54 |
| schestowitz | Aug 21 07:54 | |
| schestowitz | Aug 21 07:54 | |
| schestowitz | bahlhala 16 hours ago [–] | Aug 21 07:54 |
| schestowitz | Is the off the record instruction not just re-explaining what they are supposed to be doing? i.e. diversify who you are hiring. | Aug 21 07:55 |
| schestowitz | I can see that it is annoying but I don't get the hostility around this stuff. are there many thousands of white males not able to get a job... probably not (at least not due to this). | Aug 21 07:55 |
| schestowitz | How else are we meant to have more diverse teams if we don't hire diversely? Personally I would take a theoretical 20% hit in productivity as part of male dominated environment to learn what a more diverse environment should look like. | Aug 21 07:55 |
| schestowitz | Having this density of basically white men is often pretty toxic imho (fyi i am a white male) I see so many "harmless" jokes made by people who literally don't have enough experience to be respectful outside of their gender and race. | Aug 21 07:55 |
| schestowitz | It also makes me sad that people say "its fine look we have Susan" or whatever.. no, Susan has learned to put up with your bullshit and keep her mouth closed.. and if you think "hey I put up with bullshit too" then that only means you agree your environment is toxic and no amount of white males is fixing it. | Aug 21 07:55 |
| schestowitz | reply | Aug 21 07:55 |
| schestowitz | Aug 21 07:55 | |
| schestowitz | Aug 21 07:55 | |
| schestowitz | throwaway_35345 16 hours ago [–] | Aug 21 07:55 |
| schestowitz | But I'm an individual. You're not denying an abstract concept of 'white men' jobs. You're denying me a job. | Aug 21 07:55 |
| schestowitz | Just like diverse candidates I also need a job. Just like diverse candidates I also need to house and feed my family. Just like diverse candidates I aspire to get promoted. | Aug 21 07:55 |
| schestowitz | I can't get my head around why people think it's ok to not let me try for an opportunity because I'm a white man. I can't understand how people can't see this is wrong. | Aug 21 07:55 |
| schestowitz | reply | Aug 21 07:55 |
| schestowitz | Aug 21 07:55 | |
| schestowitz | Aug 21 07:55 | |
| schestowitz | bahlhala 16 hours ago [–] | Aug 21 07:55 |
| schestowitz | i'm not denying you a job.. you are less valuable to me as i have lots of your type of voice already. | Aug 21 07:55 |
| schestowitz | And to be clear every issue you have diverse candidates have plus loads more. the only issue you might have that they don't, is that people may wrongly assume you don't know pain or the feeling of being powerless or trampled on... i know it shity to be a human sometime, regardless of race or gender. | Aug 21 07:55 |
| schestowitz | I think there are probably enough jobs in tech for everyone though.. maybe that is naive but i only see shortages anywhere i look. if you don't get into google or IBM or whatever.. that's not unable to get a job, its just not getting that job. | Aug 21 07:55 |
| schestowitz | And if there happens not to be enough work to go around where you are, i am really genuinely sorry - i don't mean to make light of the struggles, but it also means it was hard for that other person who did get the job. | Aug 21 07:55 |
| schestowitz | reply | Aug 21 07:55 |
| schestowitz | Aug 21 07:55 | |
| schestowitz | Aug 21 07:55 | |
| schestowitz | throwaway_35345 16 hours ago [–] | Aug 21 07:55 |
| schestowitz | > you are less valuable to me as i have lots of your type of voice already | Aug 21 07:55 |
| schestowitz | But you didn't wait to hear my voice. You didn't let me open my mouth. You turned me down on how I looked not what I had to say. You don't know anything about what life experience I have and what unique points of view I can bring you. | Aug 21 07:55 |
| schestowitz | > And to be clear every issue you have diverse candidates have plus loads more. | Aug 21 07:55 |
| schestowitz | Nobody is openly, legally and systematically denying them the opportunity to prove themselves capable of a job based on the color of their skin. If they're denied based on the color of their skin they can challenge that in the courts. I can't. | Aug 21 07:55 |
| schestowitz | > I think there are probably enough jobs in tech for everyone though.. | Aug 21 07:55 |
| schestowitz | What if more companies start banning hiring white men? What if all the Google-tier companies do, so I can't get any job above a certain salary level? | Aug 21 07:55 |
| schestowitz | reply | Aug 21 07:55 |
| schestowitz | Aug 21 07:55 | |
| schestowitz | Aug 21 07:55 | |
| schestowitz | Wolfenstein98k 16 hours ago [–] | Aug 21 07:55 |
| schestowitz | This reads like you don't see individuals, you just see representatives of racial and gender groups. | Aug 21 07:55 |
| schestowitz | That's the same vibe I get from racists and sexists. | Aug 21 07:55 |
| schestowitz | What is the fundamental difference between these essentialising, group-identity-based views? | Aug 21 07:55 |
| schestowitz | reply | Aug 21 07:55 |
| schestowitz | Aug 21 07:55 | |
| schestowitz | Aug 21 07:55 | |
| schestowitz | dleslie 16 hours ago [–] | Aug 21 07:56 |
| schestowitz | > That's the same vibe I get from racists and sexists. | Aug 21 07:56 |
| schestowitz | The vibe you're detecting is prejudice. They are exhibiting prejudice against individuals on the basis of immutable traits like gender and ethnicity. | Aug 21 07:56 |
| schestowitz | reply | Aug 21 07:56 |
| schestowitz | Aug 21 07:56 | |
| schestowitz | Aug 21 07:56 | |
| schestowitz | bahlhala 16 hours ago [–] | Aug 21 07:56 |
| schestowitz | I think of it as we can see its not right just now and there are no other idea on the table. | Aug 21 07:56 |
| schestowitz | I may just be racist or sexist though.. however i dont know why i would give a shit if that was the case? | Aug 21 07:56 |
| schestowitz | reply | Aug 21 07:56 |
| schestowitz | Aug 21 07:56 | |
| schestowitz | Aug 21 07:56 | |
| schestowitz | dleslie 15 hours ago [–] | Aug 21 07:56 |
| schestowitz | It's possible to be self-aware of one's own faults and want to change, but still exhibit the errant behaviour. | Aug 21 07:56 |
| schestowitz | reply | Aug 21 07:56 |
| schestowitz | Aug 21 07:56 | |
| schestowitz | Aug 21 07:56 | |
| schestowitz | bahlhala 16 hours ago [–] | Aug 21 07:56 |
| schestowitz | i get where you are coming from.. but the problem is the lack of a better option, this is not a perfect solution. | Aug 21 07:56 |
| schestowitz | as i said elswhere in comments - i saw my dad being respected for an ability to do stuff with his computer (computers were not generally used in offices etc. at the time). my childs mind wanted to get some of that respect.. so i invested time learning and playing with computers. | Aug 21 07:56 |
| schestowitz | I saw white dudes on tv doing everything - they were all the good guys (and even most of the bad guys) i grew up thinking i could do anything. i would love to be able to say the same for my daughter. | Aug 21 07:56 |
| schestowitz | reply | Aug 21 07:56 |
| schestowitz | Aug 21 07:56 | |
| schestowitz | Aug 21 07:56 | |
| schestowitz | throwaway_35345 15 hours ago [–] | Aug 21 07:56 |
| schestowitz | > i would love to be able to say the same for my daughter | Aug 21 07:56 |
| schestowitz | Are you going to tell her how you did it? | Aug 21 07:56 |
| schestowitz | This seems like a real ends-justify-the-means dilema. I think what you're advocating for is fundamentally immoral. I accept it probably achieves the result we want, but we mustn't do it because it's wrong. | Aug 21 07:56 |
| schestowitz | reply | Aug 21 07:56 |
| schestowitz | Aug 21 07:56 | |
| schestowitz | Aug 21 07:56 | |
| schestowitz | dleslie 13 hours ago [–] | Aug 21 07:56 |
| schestowitz | What is immoral about educating your children how to achieve the abilities you exhibit? | Aug 21 07:56 |
| schestowitz | Or am I misreading; what, specifically, do you think is immoral here? Perhaps I'm confused. | Aug 21 07:56 |
| schestowitz | reply | Aug 21 07:56 |
| schestowitz | Aug 21 07:56 | |
| schestowitz | Aug 21 07:56 | |
| schestowitz | throwaway_35345 12 hours ago [–] | Aug 21 07:56 |
| schestowitz | When you said | Aug 21 07:56 |
| schestowitz | > i would love to be able to say the same for my daughter. | Aug 21 07:56 |
| schestowitz | I thought you were expressing support for no longer hiring white men, which is what the thread was about? I think that's immoral. | Aug 21 07:57 |
| schestowitz | reply | Aug 21 07:57 |
| schestowitz | Aug 21 07:57 | |
| schestowitz | Aug 21 07:57 | |
| schestowitz | dleslie 6 hours ago [–] | Aug 21 07:57 |
| schestowitz | I'm not OP, I was just curious what you thought was immoral about OP. ;) | Aug 21 07:57 |
| schestowitz | I think it's immoral to prejudice individuals upon their immutable traits, like ethnicity, sexuality, gender and so on; so we're probably in agreement. | Aug 21 07:57 |
| schestowitz | reply | Aug 21 07:57 |
| schestowitz | Aug 21 07:57 | |
| schestowitz | Aug 21 07:57 | |
| schestowitz | dleslie 15 hours ago [–] | Aug 21 07:57 |
| schestowitz | I suspect your kids will be fine as long as they have a supportive and conscientious parent, as you seem to be. | Aug 21 07:57 |
| schestowitz | reply | Aug 21 07:57 |
| schestowitz | Aug 21 07:57 | |
| schestowitz | Aug 21 07:57 | |
| schestowitz | raxxorrax 16 hours ago [–] | Aug 21 07:57 |
| schestowitz | If you don't think this to be a problem, I don't see how you could criticize people only hiring certain skin colors, which is probably extremely rare in the western world. | Aug 21 07:57 |
| schestowitz | I know that bias is the next argument, but it is just as baseless. | Aug 21 07:57 |
| schestowitz | reply | Aug 21 07:57 |
| schestowitz | Aug 21 07:57 | |
| schestowitz | Aug 21 07:57 | |
| schestowitz | bahlhala 16 hours ago [–] | Aug 21 07:57 |
| schestowitz | Honestly I find it kind of easier to get on with northern European white males.. because I am one and I hav elots in common with them.. | Aug 21 07:57 |
| schestowitz | Our parents did similar things, we eat similar foods, we grew up in similar houses.. I find it easier to predict their moods and behaviours etc.. cos they are like me. | Aug 21 07:57 |
| schestowitz | However, that doesn't mean to say we are in any way right or better than any one else. | Aug 21 07:57 |
| schestowitz | When i work with people who are different to me it often makes me feel somewhat outside of my comfort zone (not in any kind of major way - just like getting a new pair of slippers or something, it feels a little different to yesterday). | Aug 21 07:57 |
| schestowitz | I just think we cannot help this at all.. so when i am asked to visualise a new start before they join.. who do i imagine, well mostly someone like me. i mean i have all sorts of practices techniques to mitigate this, but its inherently true, true of all people imho. | Aug 21 07:57 |
| schestowitz | So we have lots of jobs and areas that are thick with white men.. everything is tailored to what their needs are. start times, lengths of holidays and breaks, how long is taken for parental leave after a child is born, even the temperature of most offices is tuned to middle aged white men. | Aug 21 07:57 |
| schestowitz | We (white men) dont know what an inclusive environment is.. no single group of people does. so really we have to go for immersion therapy (or fake it till you make it).. we just have to kind of force a more diverse group of people into these roles and see what happens.. all the time trying to be respectful and accommodating. | Aug 21 07:57 |
| schestowitz | I wanted to work with computers as it was something I saw my dad doing it when i was very young (its not this simple but it almost is).. if our daughters dont see their mothers working in IT why would they put any effort into learning it? | Aug 21 07:57 |
| schestowitz | Its a chicken and egg scenario to a certain extent and this is basically the only route in we have to change the feedback loop imho. if someone comes up with another idea i am all ears. | Aug 21 07:57 |
| schestowitz | reply | Aug 21 07:57 |
| schestowitz | Aug 21 07:57 | |
| schestowitz | Aug 21 07:57 | |
| schestowitz | raxxorrax 15 hours ago [–] | Aug 21 07:57 |
| schestowitz | See, if I travel to another culture, I don't expect it to change to my whims. I would think if they don't value their own culture, they probably wouldn't value mine either. | Aug 21 07:57 |
| schestowitz | I do actually work with many ethnicities and have come to the realization that they are all idiots. There are differences in representation between production and administration, but not because of bias or racism. | Aug 21 07:57 |
| schestowitz | > so really we have to go for immersion therapy | Aug 21 07:57 |
| schestowitz | No thanks. You are free to travel though. | Aug 21 07:57 |
| schestowitz | > We (white men) | Aug 21 07:57 |
| schestowitz | Jehovah's witnesses tried the same shtick once as they tried to include me in their believes, but we are no group. That would only lead to quarrels. Europe wasn't always as peaceful, even if everyone was pretty pink. | Aug 21 07:58 |
| schestowitz | > if our daughters dont see their mothers working in IT | Aug 21 07:58 |
| schestowitz | Honestly I think the situation got worse for women in the last 10 years. Through expectations placed upon them by others and themselves. Formerly it was a rarity but few really noticed it. Now their actions would be put under more scrutiny. Here bias does indeed play a role and some discussion emphasized that it apparently isn't normal for women to be in IT. | Aug 21 07:58 |
| schestowitz | > we just have to kind of force a more diverse group | Aug 21 07:58 |
| schestowitz | I fundamentally disagree that anybody needs to be forced. Freedom of association and that thing... Plus, that already happened countless times before and it will happen again. | Aug 21 07:58 |
| schestowitz | reply | Aug 21 07:58 |
| schestowitz | Aug 21 07:58 | |
| schestowitz | Aug 21 07:58 | |
| schestowitz | raxxorrax 17 hours ago [–] | Aug 21 07:58 |
| schestowitz | This is actually structural racism in contrast to attesting it on society or some specific people. | Aug 21 07:58 |
| schestowitz | Honestly, I think this letter is quite weak. To see Trump as a racist is a result of medial smear campaigns. He might have a foul mouth, but I have different definition of what constitutes a racist. You can have countless reasons to dislike Trump, but he is no racist. Maybe the signers of this letters are. | Aug 21 07:58 |
| schestowitz | reply | Aug 21 07:58 |
| schestowitz | Aug 21 07:58 | |
| schestowitz | Aug 21 07:58 | |
| schestowitz | augustt 16 hours ago [–] | Aug 21 07:58 |
| schestowitz | Like trying to get five innocent black boys executed and maintaining his position to this day? And of course his reintroduction to politics was riding the birther movement, which was almost comically racist. | Aug 21 07:58 |
| schestowitz | reply | Aug 21 07:58 |
| schestowitz | Aug 21 07:58 | |
| schestowitz | Aug 21 07:58 | |
| schestowitz | kthejoker2 11 hours ago [–] | Aug 21 07:58 |
| schestowitz | * "shithole countries" | Aug 21 07:58 |
| schestowitz | * "they're animals" | Aug 21 07:58 |
| schestowitz | * "We can't allow these people to invade our country" | Aug 21 07:58 |
| schestowitz | * "Mexican judge" | Aug 21 07:58 |
| schestowitz | * multiple accounts of him calling black peope "n-gg-rs" | Aug 21 07:58 |
| schestowitz | * "Black guys counting my money! I hate it. The only kind of people I want counting my money are short guys that wear yarmulkes every day." | Aug 21 07:58 |
| schestowitz | * “When Donald and Ivana came to the casino, the bosses would order all the black people off the floor" | Aug 21 07:58 |
| schestowitz | * The Central Park Five ad (never mind that they were innocent, a racist wrote it) | Aug 21 07:58 |
| schestowitz | * literally settled out of court for racially discriminating as a landlord | Aug 21 07:58 |
| schestowitz | * They don’t look like Indians to me.” | Aug 21 07:58 |
| schestowitz | * "I was the only person of color that I saw at an executive level in my entire year with the Trump Organization" | Aug 21 07:58 |
| schestowitz | * Baltimore and Atlanta are "infested" | Aug 21 07:58 |
| schestowitz | * telling US citizens of color "go back to your countries" | Aug 21 07:58 |
| schestowitz | * wanting to swap Puerto Rico (again, US citizens he represents) for Greenland because it's a "dirty" island, "showed deep animus to its people" | Aug 21 07:58 |
| schestowitz | * birther conspiracy | Aug 21 07:58 |
| schestowitz | * agreeing with a supporter in a townhall who said "we have a problem in this country; it’s called Muslims.” | Aug 21 07:58 |
| schestowitz | * Trump: How do you stop illegal border crossers? Supporter: "Shoot them!" Trump laughs enthusiastically | Aug 21 07:58 |
| schestowitz | * lied about watching "thousands and thousands of Muslims" celebrating 9/11 | Aug 21 07:58 |
| schestowitz | * tried to ban all Muslims from entering the country | Aug 21 07:58 |
| schestowitz | * tons of promoting racists (Laura Loomer, Jayda Dransen, Sebastian Gorka, Jeannine Pirro, Joe Arpaio, Unite the Right | Aug 21 07:58 |
| schestowitz | * many actual racists call him a fellow racist (Christchurch shooter, El Paso shooter, Pittsburgh synagogue shooter) | Aug 21 07:59 |
| schestowitz | I don't know what your definition of racism is, but I would love to hear how none of these incidents qualify. | Aug 21 07:59 |
| schestowitz | reply | Aug 21 07:59 |
| schestowitz | Aug 21 07:59 | |
| schestowitz | Aug 21 07:59 | |
| schestowitz | robert_foss 16 hours ago [–] | Aug 21 07:59 |
| schestowitz | Just out of curiosity, what constitutes racism to you? | Aug 21 07:59 |
| schestowitz | Trump called White Supremacists 'fine people'. He has clearly played to the racists parts of his base on numerous occasions. If actions promoting racism isn't racism, then I don't know what is. | Aug 21 07:59 |
| schestowitz | reply | Aug 21 07:59 |
| schestowitz | Aug 21 07:59 | |
| schestowitz | Aug 21 07:59 | |
| schestowitz | Wolfenstein98k 16 hours ago [–] | Aug 21 07:59 |
| schestowitz | That is pure fake news. You may not be intending to lie, but you're spreading them. | Aug 21 07:59 |
| schestowitz | "To remove all doubt, the President continued with “I’m not talking about the neo-Nazis and the white nationalists, because they should be condemned totally – but you had many people in that group other than neo-Nazis and white nationalists, okay?”" | Aug 21 07:59 |
| schestowitz | https://www.scottadamssays.com/2019/04/30/the-fine-people-ho... | Aug 21 07:59 |
| schestowitz | reply | Aug 21 07:59 |
| -TechrightsBN/#boycottnovell-www.scottadamssays.com | The “Fine People” Hoax Funnel - Scott Adams' Blog | Aug 21 07:59 | |
| schestowitz | Aug 21 07:59 | |
| schestowitz | Aug 21 07:59 | |
| schestowitz | robert_foss 16 hours ago [–] | Aug 21 07:59 |
| schestowitz | I have no particular desire to take another step into the garbage fire that is America and its politics, but calling something fake news does not make it so. | Aug 21 07:59 |
| schestowitz | https://www.politifact.com/article/2019/apr/26/context-trump... | Aug 21 07:59 |
| -TechrightsBN/#boycottnovell- ( status 404 @ https://www.politifact.com/article/2019/apr/26/context-trump/ ) | Aug 21 07:59 | |
| schestowitz | reply | Aug 21 07:59 |
| schestowitz | Aug 21 07:59 | |
| schestowitz | Aug 21 07:59 | |
| schestowitz | raxxorrax 16 hours ago [–] | Aug 21 07:59 |
| schestowitz | No he probabaly did not or these people weren't white supremacists. Racism to me is attributing characteristics to different races/ethnicities and value judgements of theae attributes. People like that exist, but they are a tiny minority. | Aug 21 07:59 |
| schestowitz | reply | Aug 21 07:59 |
| schestowitz | Aug 21 07:59 | |
| schestowitz | Aug 21 07:59 | |
| schestowitz | tasogare 16 hours ago [–] | Aug 21 07:59 |
| schestowitz | Judging someone simply on his race. Simple example: refusing a job to someone because of this criterion. It doesn’t matter if Asian, Black, White or other, if the candidate is dismissed because of race, it’s racism. | Aug 21 07:59 |
| schestowitz | reply | Aug 21 07:59 |
| schestowitz | Aug 21 07:59 | |
| schestowitz | Aug 21 07:59 | |
| schestowitz | robert_foss 15 hours ago [–] | Aug 21 07:59 |
| schestowitz | So supporting an entrenched system of racism is not racism then? If so I can see why not much progress is being made. | Aug 21 07:59 |
| schestowitz | reply | Aug 21 07:59 |
| schestowitz | Aug 21 07:59 | |
| schestowitz | Aug 21 07:59 | |
| schestowitz | rangoon626 16 hours ago [–] | Aug 21 07:59 |
| schestowitz | He also achieved the highest black unemployment rating under his administration. That does not seem like something a racist would do. This is why no one is buying this narrative. | Aug 21 08:00 |
| schestowitz | reply | Aug 21 08:00 |
| schestowitz | Aug 21 08:00 | |
| schestowitz | Aug 21 08:00 | |
| schestowitz | happytoexplain 17 hours ago [–] | Aug 21 08:00 |
| schestowitz | Unfortunately, this is a line of attack used by malicious actors: Summoning the specter of anti-white racism every time "diversity" is mentioned, with not much else to say. I'm not accusing you of doing that, but I am saying that we should try to keep in mind that failures like the one you describe are a natural consequence of Goodhart's Law, and we need to tackle them as problems, rather than just reaching for them as examples that | Aug 21 08:00 |
| schestowitz | (intentionally or not) imply that trying to diversify the hiring pool is in itself wrong-headed. For example: Note that I said hiring pool - not necessarily hires. Part of avoiding the problem you ran into is focusing on pragmatism and holism - it's OK to address the symptoms if we're applying the treatment justly, but we mustn't let our primary focus stray from addressing the disease. | Aug 21 08:00 |
| schestowitz | reply | Aug 21 08:00 |
| schestowitz | Aug 21 08:00 | |
| schestowitz | Aug 21 08:00 | |
| schestowitz | faned 16 hours ago [–] | Aug 21 08:00 |
| schestowitz | Edit: Shadowbanned. | Aug 21 08:00 |
| schestowitz | reply | Aug 21 08:00 |
| schestowitz | Aug 21 08:00 | |
| schestowitz | Aug 21 08:00 | |
| schestowitz | mensetmanusman 17 hours ago [–] | Aug 21 08:00 |
| schestowitz | Are they asking management to pull out of having any operations in China and India? | Aug 21 08:00 |
| schestowitz | reply | Aug 21 08:00 |
| schestowitz | Aug 21 08:00 | |
| schestowitz | Aug 21 08:00 | |
| schestowitz | TheSpiceIsLife 17 hours ago [–] | Aug 21 08:00 |
| schestowitz | Are they asking management to pull out of the USA? | Aug 21 08:00 |
| schestowitz | Which has conducted illegal wars, and pulled out of nuclear talks with Iran. | Aug 21 08:00 |
| schestowitz | reply | Aug 21 08:00 |
| schestowitz | Aug 21 08:00 | |
| schestowitz | Aug 21 08:00 | |
| schestowitz | mensetmanusman 17 hours ago [–] | Aug 21 08:00 |
| schestowitz | Unfortunately, the US legal system has inadvertently legalized all wars/conflicts the military happens to be a part of. | Aug 21 08:00 |
| schestowitz | This is a consequence of so many things... | Aug 21 08:00 |
| schestowitz | reply | Aug 21 08:00 |
| schestowitz | Aug 21 08:00 | |
| schestowitz | Aug 21 08:00 | |
| schestowitz | geogra4 17 hours ago [–] | Aug 21 08:00 |
| schestowitz | Right? It's really hypocritical for any American company to be talking about these kinds of things. | Aug 21 08:00 |
| schestowitz | reply | Aug 21 08:00 |
| schestowitz | Aug 21 08:00 | |
| schestowitz | Aug 21 08:00 | |
| schestowitz | CWuestefeld 15 hours ago [–] | Aug 21 08:00 |
| schestowitz | The USA has plenty of problems. But they don't include murdering 10s of millions of people, harvesting organs from prisoners, policies leading to enforced abortions and murders of baby girls, and universal suppression of speech. | Aug 21 08:00 |
| schestowitz | Moral calculus can be dangerous, but the numbers are so huge that it seems fair to me to put the 20th century communist regimes at the top of the list for most evil. | Aug 21 08:00 |
| schestowitz | reply | Aug 21 08:01 |
| schestowitz | Aug 21 08:01 | |
| schestowitz | Aug 21 08:01 | |
| schestowitz | frenchtoastboat 16 hours ago [–] | Aug 21 08:01 |
| schestowitz | They aren't. | Aug 21 08:01 |
| schestowitz | You forgot to answer the original question, though. | Aug 21 08:01 |
| schestowitz | reply | Aug 21 08:01 |
| schestowitz | Aug 21 08:01 | |
| schestowitz | Aug 21 08:01 | |
| schestowitz | makison 17 hours ago [–] | Aug 21 08:01 |
| schestowitz | Broken db | Aug 21 08:01 |
| schestowitz | reply | Aug 21 08:01 |
| schestowitz | Aug 21 08:01 | |
| schestowitz | Aug 21 08:01 | |
| schestowitz | Wolfenstein98k 16 hours ago [–] | Aug 21 08:01 |
| schestowitz | "...reaffirmed IBM’s moral leadership by refusing to discriminate on the basis of race, resisting the prevailing attitudes of governors in the southern United States." | Aug 21 08:01 |
| schestowitz | "[We petition you to prohibit] IBM and its employees from using any Trump owned or Trump branded properties for business purposes..." | Aug 21 08:01 |
| schestowitz | Ugh. When did so many employees become fifth columns pushing a very narrow and minority political view? This is happening at many large companies lately. | Aug 21 08:01 |
| schestowitz | reply | Aug 21 08:01 |
| schestowitz | Aug 21 08:01 | |
| schestowitz | Aug 21 08:01 | |
| schestowitz | jaywalk 16 hours ago [–] | Aug 21 08:01 |
| schestowitz | The problem is that companies started giving in to these fringe groups, which just emboldens them. These people can never be pacified, so giving them an inch is the worst mistake you can make. | Aug 21 08:01 |
| schestowitz | reply | Aug 21 08:01 |
| schestowitz | https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=24222728 | Aug 21 08:01 |
| -TechrightsBN/#boycottnovell-news.ycombinator.com | 2,445 IBM Employees Openly Condemned IBM for Enabling Racist Regimes | Hacker News | Aug 21 08:01 | |
| schestowitz | https://perens.com/2017/09/26/on-usage-of-the-phrase-open-source/ | Aug 21 08:06 |
| -TechrightsBN/#boycottnovell-perens.com | On Usage of The Phrase "Open Source" – Bruce Perens | Aug 21 08:06 | |
| schestowitz | " | Aug 21 08:06 |
| schestowitz | “Open Source” is the proper name of a campaign to promote the pre-existing concept of Free Software to business, and to certify licenses to a rule set. Please treat it as a proper name, rather than a descriptive term, when it is applied to any work to which a license compliant with the Open Source Definition could possibly apply. That means you should capitalize both words. | Aug 21 08:06 |
| schestowitz | “Open Source software” is a subset of the general category of software, and can be written without capitalizing the word “software” where appropriate. | Aug 21 08:06 |
| schestowitz | For a work to be Open Source, it must be entirely under a license or licenses which comply with the Open Source Definition. | Aug 21 08:06 |
| schestowitz | If someone says that something is Open Source and the license does not comply with the Open Source Definition, please tell them that the proper definition of Open Source is a work under a license which complies with the Open Source Definition. Be firm but polite. | Aug 21 08:06 |
| schestowitz | When “Open Source” is used as a descriptive term rather than a proper name, it becomes a fuzzy reference to a development paradigm with no concrete definition, rather than the specific set of license rules in the Open Source Definition. So, it can be made to mean just about anything. Don’t allow people to erode the definition of Open Source. | Aug 21 08:06 |
| schestowitz | Where Did Open Source Come From? | Aug 21 08:06 |
| schestowitz | Obviously, Richard Stallman was first with Free Software, and we stand on Richard’s shoulders. | Aug 21 08:06 |
| schestowitz | The text of the Open Source Definition is taken directly from the Debian Free Software Guidelines (DFSG). I created the DFSG and the Debian Social Contract, and submitted the first draft to the Debian developers on their mailing list in June of 1997. I edited it, taking suggestions and building consensus on that same mailing list, for about a month and then announced the result as project policy. | Aug 21 08:06 |
| schestowitz | The inspiration for the Debian Social Contract and DFSG was two events. The first was questions on the Debian developer mailing list regarding which licenses were acceptable into Debian (Erik Andersen says he asked the question which inspired me). The second was an email conversation between Ean Schuessler and Donnie Barnes (one of the early Red Hat employees). In his email to Donnie, Ean accused Red Hat of never having elucidated | Aug 21 08:06 |
| schestowitz | their social contract with the Free Software community. Ean did not actually suggest that Debian form a social contract, he only complained about Red Hat’s lack of one, perhaps believing that Debian’s social contract was clear. I decided to create one. | Aug 21 08:06 |
| schestowitz | Eric Raymond approached me with the intention of forming the Open Source Initiative, I believe on February 2, 1998. Eric had been visiting California to see Larry Augustin of VA Linux Systems, and a meeting was held at VA where Christine Peterson (of the Foresight Institute and then married to Eric Drexler) suggested “Open Source” as a way to promote Free Software without the stigma of “free” in the English language. Some | Aug 21 08:06 |
| schestowitz | references date the VA meeting as February 3, I suspect that’s incorrect. | Aug 21 08:06 |
| schestowitz | I suggested to Eric that I use the already-written Debian Free Software Guidelines as the Open Source Definition. Eric agreed. That’s the only input he had, as the text had already been written and adopted as the DFSG eight months previously and was not modified other than removal of Debian references. I wrote an announcement of Open Source which was published on February 9, and that’s when the world first heard about Open | Aug 21 08:06 |
| schestowitz | Source. | Aug 21 08:06 |
| schestowitz | By the way, the 20th anniversary of Open Source is February 9, 2018. | Aug 21 08:06 |
| schestowitz | I’ve been asked whether I used the Four Freedoms of the Free Software Foundation when writing the DFSG. I didn’t. First, the Four Freedoms didn’t exist then, they were the Three Freedoms! These had been published in the first “GNUS Bulletin” by Richard Stallman, which was distributed in paper form around MIT. I had read Richard’s announcement of Free Software on a USENET newsgroup but might not have read the Three | Aug 21 08:06 |
| schestowitz | Freedoms at that time. At the time I wrote the DFSG, the web was in its infancy and FSF had built a web site just months before. I simply didn’t have a copy of the Three Freedoms in hand. The DFSG was mainly inspired by the licenses that Debian was already using, and of course the GPL, created by Richard, was among them. | Aug 21 08:06 |
| schestowitz | I wrote to Richard with a new copy of the DFSG and he replied “this is a good definition of Free Software.” He didn’t suggest that I use the Three Freedoms. | Aug 21 08:06 |
| schestowitz | It is unfortunate that for some time the Open Source Initiative deprecated Richard Stallman and Free Software, and that some people still consider Open Source and Free Software to be different things today. I never meant it to be that way. Open Source was meant to be a way of promoting the concept of Free Software to business people, who I have always hoped would thus come to appreciate Richard and his Free Software campaign. And | Aug 21 08:06 |
| schestowitz | many have. Open Source licenses and Free Software licenses are effectively the same thing. | Aug 21 08:06 |
| schestowitz | " | Aug 21 08:06 |
| schestowitz | https://twitter.com/daisuke/status/1296705873247498241 | Aug 21 08:15 |
| -TechrightsBN/#boycottnovell-@daisuke: 旧来はIEだったが現行はこっちが密接過多なんだな。: “It takes a lot of technical work to remove OneDrive from Windows (how many people will… https://t.co/Hs0bVphIiS | Aug 21 08:15 | |
| -TechrightsBN/#boycottnovell-@daisuke: 旧来はIEだったが現行はこっちが密接過多なんだな。: “It takes a lot of technical work to remove OneDrive from Windows (how many people will… https://t.co/Hs0bVphIiS | Aug 21 08:15 | |
| schestowitz | "旧来はIEだったが現行はこっちが密接過多なんだな。: “It takes a lot of technical work to remove OneDrive from Windows (how many people will even bother?)” / “In Microsoft Windows the Police May Get Access to All the Files (and That’s Almost Impossible to …”" | Aug 21 08:15 |
| *rianne__ (~rianne@host81-154-173-175.range81-154.btcentralplus.com) has joined #boycottnovell | Aug 21 11:21 | |
| *rianne_ has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) | Aug 21 11:24 | |
| *oiaohm has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) | Aug 21 17:25 | |
| *oiaohm (~oiaohm@unaffiliated/oiaohm) has joined #boycottnovell | Aug 21 17:26 | |
| schestowitz | https://twitter.com/xACE_9x/status/1296832081427931136 | Aug 21 20:57 |
| -TechrightsBN/#boycottnovell-@xACE_9x: @BillGates has blocked all comments on his tweets. This is because the allegations that he was good buddies with… https://t.co/HTkYmGZIpY | Aug 21 20:57 | |
| -TechrightsBN/#boycottnovell-@xACE_9x: @BillGates has blocked all comments on his tweets. This is because the allegations that he was good buddies with… https://t.co/HTkYmGZIpY | Aug 21 20:57 | |
| schestowitz | " | Aug 21 20:57 |
| schestowitz | @BillGates | Aug 21 20:57 |
| schestowitz | has blocked all comments on his tweets. | Aug 21 20:57 |
| schestowitz | This is because the allegations that he was good buddies with #Epstein are true. | Aug 21 20:57 |
| schestowitz | If he lied about Epstein, he is lying about the vaccines as well. | Aug 21 20:57 |
| schestowitz | " | Aug 21 20:57 |
| *rianne_ (~rianne@host81-154-173-175.range81-154.btcentralplus.com) has joined #boycottnovell | Aug 21 23:55 | |
| *rianne__ has quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) | Aug 21 23:58 | |
Generated by irclog2html.py 2.6 by Marius Gedminas - find it at mg.pov.lt!