●● IRC: #boycottnovell @ Techrights IRC Network: Friday, February 25, 2022 ●● ● Feb 25 [00:38] *wallacer has quit (Ping timeout: 2m30s) [00:48] *wallacer (~quassel@6bsu33ajs4zs4.irc) has joined #boycottnovell ● Feb 25 [03:47] schestowitz-TR i have just added to the git index in gemini the chat client and web site [03:47] schestowitz-TR stuff so there are now 10 'sub-projects' there [03:59] schestowitz gemini://gemini.techrights.org/git/tr-git/ ● Feb 25 [05:47] *u-amarsh04 has quit (Connection closed) [05:47] *u-amarsh04 has quit (connection closed) [05:52] *u-amarsh04 (~amarsh04@hngiv8sdpiaf2.irc) has joined #boycottnovell [05:52] *u-amarsh04 (~amarsh04@joseon-rmogvn.g0d7.dtdf.mc4289.IP) has joined #boycottnovell ● Feb 25 [06:20] *activelow (~activelow@ndywmjz9wddpn.irc) has joined #boycottnovell [06:20] activelow 2022-02-25 06:19:11 [_techrights] |CLIENTNOTICES| -!- Irssi: Public Key Fingerprint: 49:D0:ED:73:95:B2:7C:23:E8:F7:2F:0F:3F:F2:43:10:FC:6C:44:9E:70:B1:DA:BF:AE:2C:61:AD:F3:BA:E3:88 (SHA256) [06:20] activelow 2022-02-25 06:19:11 [_techrights] |CLIENTNOTICES| -!- Irssi: Certificate Fingerprint: 46:B6:0B:33:6D:B6:00:5F:03:B5:2E:66:7E:37:52:13:EC:47:9B:24:79:DA:0F:C5:45:A8:B2:CB:60:46:F2:BE (SHA256) [06:20] activelow 2022-02-25 06:19:11 |CLIENTERRORS| -!- Irssi: warning Pinned certificate mismatch [06:20] activelow 2022-02-25 06:19:11 [_techrights] |CLIENTNOTICES| -!- Irssi: Connection lost to 23.161.112.117 [06:36] *DaemonFC has quit (Quit: Leaving) ● Feb 25 [09:08] *rianne has quit (connection closed) [09:08] *asusbox has quit (connection closed) [09:09] *rianne (~rianne@pumv3cb2rfinu.irc) has joined #boycottnovell [09:09] *asusbox (~rianne@pumv3cb2rfinu.irc) has joined #boycottnovell ● Feb 25 [10:00] *wallacer has quit (Ping timeout: 2m30s) [10:00] *wallacer (~quassel@6bsu33ajs4zs4.irc) has joined #boycottnovell ● Feb 25 [11:03] schestowitz-TR hi, gm [11:03] schestowitz-TR I wanted to ask, [11:03] schestowitz-TR do you have experience dealing with gemini on a synicication/subscription basis? [11:03] schestowitz-TR I'm new to that, but I see some people do in fact follow our capsule using the [11:03] schestowitz-TR feeds [11:03] schestowitz-TR page [11:04] Techrights-sec No I have not looked into syndication at all. [11:05] schestowitz-TR ok, how about this? [11:05] schestowitz-TR I look into it, maybe explain how that works, and then make a long list of [11:05] schestowitz-TR so-called 'feeds' for gemini so that other people can find which capsules/people [11:05] schestowitz-TR to follow... [11:08] schestowitz-TR heck. [11:08] schestowitz-TR we might even wish to create our own syndication list and make it public [11:08] schestowitz-TR iirc, spacewalk does this [11:09] Techrights-sec ok [11:09] Techrights-sec It would be an option. Is there documentation on writing a syndication service? [11:09] schestowitz-TR that is what I do not know about [11:09] schestowitz-TR iirc, there is a multitude of ways to "syndicate" [11:09] schestowitz-TR and no unified way [11:09] schestowitz-TR let aloner a unified set of clients [11:25] Techrights-sec And the mailing list is still missing in action [11:35] schestowitz https://twitter.com/glynmoody/status/1497166461391024177 [11:35] -TechrightsBN/#boycottnovell-@glynmoody: @schestowitz no need to migrate, I have other platforms; I'll leave everything as it is, wait for it to come back... [11:36] schestowitz https://twitter.com/AlfazAdil/status/1497145557311455232 [11:36] -TechrightsBN/#boycottnovell-@AlfazAdil: @schestowitz To prevent false flag attacks by the desperate Ukrainian forces. Everything they are doing makes sense https://t.co/knrlwA5DME [11:48] schestowitz I am writing to you, a valued thinker who has long observed the Net and the Web, about JoinDiaspora (and more). [11:48] schestowitz As you may be aware, JoinDiaspora will shut down and their plan it to help people migrate the account to other pods. All "friends" etc. will be lost, but posts and comments are supposed to be preserved (they write code to that effect, I believe). This is work in progress. [11:48] schestowitz I have two accounts in that pod. The Linux account (official), and my own, which put together probably have close to 900,000 posts and hundreds of thousands of comments. [11:48] schestowitz Lately I've been thinking whether it's even worth posting in all those sites at all, seeing that the traffic they bring is nothing like what it was a decade ago (judging by your account in Twitter and in JoinDiaspora), you too are experiencing this. [11:48] schestowitz Should we invest time and effort in what might be a passing fad whose time may be running out? [11:48] schestowitz I don't want to take up much of your time, but given you're in a similar situation a short paragraph would help me form a decision. Next Friday around 8PM JoinDiaspora goes offline. [11:48] schestowitz Regards, [11:48] schestowitz CC Rianne (TuxMachines) [11:59] Techrights-sec A lot of old discussions from the 1990s about digital preservation would be [11:59] Techrights-sec relevant to dust off and republish. Unfortunately with such services [11:59] Techrights-sec the preservation strategy has to be planned from be beginning and built into [11:59] Techrights-sec the very design. As with all things, complexity makes preservation harder. [11:59] Techrights-sec Migration is one well-known preservation strategy. ● Feb 25 [12:01] Techrights-sec however with each migration or layer of emulation, material gets lost. So [12:01] Techrights-sec with archives, one of the key decisions made when accepting material is how [12:01] Techrights-sec long it should be kept for and in what state. [12:03] activelow digital preservation is an oxymoron [12:03] schestowitz-TR as you are well aware, since pleroma.site blew up I've kept my postings from JD [12:03] schestowitz-TR in schestowitz.com in addition to the static file we have in techrights [12:03] schestowitz-TR techrights also has an extensive archive of tweets syndicated using the bot [12:03] schestowitz-TR built by Toby until Twitter gotr all nasty towards APIs in 2018 [12:04] Techrights-sec yes. [12:04] Techrights-sec yes. [12:05] *Despatche has quit (Quit: Read error: Connection reset by deer) [12:06] schestowitz-TR I wonder if the US LoC is still making any physical copies like printouts [12:06] schestowitz-TR of stuff it purports to be preserving [12:06] schestowitz-TR I can imagine that due to scale (it did archive tweets until a Nazi became [12:06] schestowitz-TR "Twitter public guardian number one") it boilds down to lip service [12:07] Techrights-sec Probably not. [12:09] schestowitz-TR viera was developed by kaniini to synidicatre over to irc/freenode from pleroma [12:10] schestowitz-TR I still have the code, but I think it is online already (elsewere) [12:10] schestowitz-TR and there is no much use to it, not even by us [12:11] Techrights-sec I have not looked at Viera at all. IRC is quite ephemeral. [12:16] schestowitz I bet to differ. IRC, USENET, and even gopher managed to preserve TONS of stuff compared to the Web (where we rely too much on IA for history). https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ephemerality [12:16] -TechrightsBN/#boycottnovell-en.wikipedia.org | Ephemerality - Wikipedia [12:16] schestowitz-TR *beg to differ [12:22] Techrights-sec that is the result of services tacked onto IRC and Usenet not anything inherent [12:22] Techrights-sec to either. [12:22] Techrights-sec The relative simplicity of the technology facilitates prservation just like [12:22] Techrights-sec the original WWW did with HTML+CSS and *no* javascript. [12:22] Techrights-sec There was DejaNews for a while but it got subsumed by Google and then not sure [12:22] Techrights-sec how much is left of that. [12:23] Techrights-sec Google's archive is not so accessible. [12:23] schestowitz-TR yes, it has been technically simple and cheap, esp. when small (by today's scale [12:23] schestowitz-TR ) drives were still pricey and not so reliable [12:23] schestowitz-TR maybe that was a (partly) bueiness decision [12:23] schestowitz-TR competitive edge [12:24] schestowitz First the mailing list dies [12:24] schestowitz empty promises of recovery [12:24] schestowitz empty promises of resumption [12:24] schestowitz now: "gemini.circumlunar.space took too long to respond." [12:25] schestowitz I think it's not a temporary issue [12:25] schestowitz I think it keeps happening [12:26] Techrights-sec Could be. It happened shortly before Google went south. [12:26] Techrights-sec Yes, I've noticed that too. [12:26] activelow if you're concerned about digital presevation: nilfs2, disable all garbage collection, and verify checksums with some fsck utility (easily implemented) [12:27] activelow cannot comprehend, why any other filesystem design is considered, since when linux kernel implemented it [12:27] schestowitz-TR look at it like this [12:27] schestowitz-TR gemini is inherently NOT centralised [12:27] schestowitz-TR when the spec was neglected for a year other people wanted to fork it [12:27] schestowitz-TR that's when solderpunk came back [12:27] schestowitz-TR and then the mailing list died [12:27] schestowitz-TR so radio silence again [12:27] schestowitz-TR the space keeps growing [12:28] schestowitz-TR but there is no official news site [12:28] schestowitz-TR no leadership [12:28] Techrights-sec I can't speculate on th ecauses, though, even if the large corporate interests [12:28] Techrights-sec fight anything which aims to re-decentralize the net. [12:28] Techrights-sec Should TR set up mailman or similar and run a list for Gemini? Sympa, too. [12:32] schestowitz-TR it would (maybe rightly) be perceived as a hostile takeover attempt [12:32] schestowitz-TR I'd say [12:32] schestowitz-TR Let's make another "spacewalk" [12:32] schestowitz-TR as the original is not there afaict [12:32] schestowitz-TR we already routinely cover gemini stuff and news [12:32] schestowitz-TR a "spacewalk" would help give voice to many capsules [12:32] schestowitz-TR like salim announcing that fedora now has lagrange in the repos [12:32] schestowitz-TR mailing lists are a logistical nightmare [12:32] schestowitz-TR even joindiaspora struggled with mail [12:32] schestowitz-TR as you need to juimp through many hoops and even then [12:32] schestowitz-TR you can face aggressions from microsofters an gulagers [12:32] schestowitz-TR also, mailman archives are html [12:32] schestowitz-TR which is contrary to what gemini is about [12:32] schestowitz-TR so gnu mailman would inherently be biased against gemini [12:32] schestowitz-TR and cause another such diusaster [12:32] schestowitz-TR like loss of community';s history [12:33] Techrights-sec :( [12:33] Techrights-sec I did not use "spacewalk" so much [12:33] Techrights-sec microsoft will always (ALWAYS) try to control and destroy *all* projects no [12:33] Techrights-sec matter how small, especially if the project does not funnel people into [12:33] Techrights-sec the M$ market. [12:33] schestowitz-TR psydroid helped us understand the role Microsoft played in gemini around 2020, not just later in 2021 [12:34] schestowitz-TR my email is managed on my own domain on a shared RH servrs [12:34] schestowitz-TR they too are fighting the blacklists [12:34] schestowitz-TR mailing lists are not what they once were [12:34] schestowitz-TR we need a gemini-first approach, with web proxy [12:36] Techrights-sec The archive module could also make static Gemini pages, but that'd take [12:36] Techrights-sec a lot of storage space since Gemini does not compress the back end AFAIK [12:36] Techrights-sec CGI is not appropriate for Gemini [12:36] Techrights-sec Web proxieds are just a temporary effort, a transition fill the gap between [12:36] Techrights-sec now and the time when Gemini clients are easily available in the Debian (and [12:36] Techrights-sec derivative) repositories. [12:38] schestowitz-TR I am goin to [12:38] schestowitz-TR 1) research feeds a bit [12:38] schestowitz-TR 2) harvest some 'feeds' [12:38] schestowitz-TR make a prototype of some kind [12:38] schestowitz-TR maybe a "Gemini News" section for techrights which somehoe organises new posts [12:38] schestowitz-TR from that, later, I can cheery pick items for Daily Links [12:38] schestowitz-TR maybe in due course that "page" will become handy for other people [12:38] schestowitz-TR email does not scale [12:38] schestowitz-TR it scatters a lot of stuff to people who would not read it [12:38] schestowitz-TR conditional upon delivery by hostile hopping points [12:38] schestowitz-TR which can beget 'gentlte' and 'oft' censorship [12:38] Techrights-sec ack [12:38] schestowitz-TR political and business-oiriented [12:39] schestowitz-TR biab ● Feb 25 [13:06] schestowitz gemini.circumlunar.space/docs/companion/subscription.gmi down at the moment, but I believe it specifies what amfora is using or latching onto [13:06] schestowitz either way, we want to syndicate onto a page [13:06] schestowitz rather than a client [13:06] schestowitz right? [13:19] Techrights-sec I'd ahve to read up on syndication in Gemini [13:19] schestowitz https://nnix.com/x/geminispace.info/known-feeds [13:19] -TechrightsBN/#boycottnovell-nnix.com | geminispace.info - Gemini Search Engine [13:22] schestowitz https://sr.ht/~sircmpwn/gemreader/ [13:22] -TechrightsBN/#boycottnovell-sr.ht | gemreader: A feed reader hosted on Gemini [13:23] schestowitz gemini://feeds.drewdevault.com [13:36] schestowitz-TR https://www.theregister.com/2022/01/27/gemini_protocol/ [13:36] -TechrightsBN/#boycottnovell-www.theregister.com | New protocol Gemini's users panned for being exclusionary The Register [13:36] Techrights-sec ack [13:36] Techrights-sec figures The Register would have to fabricate a negative spin [13:37] schestowitz-TR we should really worry that Liam did this [13:37] schestowitz-TR as he should know better [13:37] schestowitz-TR accessibility and all [13:37] schestowitz-TR he is pro-Linux [13:37] schestowitz-TR maybe he read something somewhere hostile [13:37] schestowitz-TR such as 'hacker' noise [13:39] Techrights-sec HN is M$ propaganda almost exclusively but with a small sampling of other stuff [13:39] Techrights-sec to keep people's attention and provide deniability [13:40] schestowitz-TR i am not able to find any program that would take that long list of xml fgiles, [13:40] schestowitz-TR over gemini:// [13:40] schestowitz-TR and then turn that into a list of items, clickable [13:40] schestowitz-TR I reckon with xml parsers in poerl it would be as easy as pie [13:40] schestowitz-TR basically dump that list inmto a file [13:40] schestowitz-TR then grab one by one [13:40] schestowitz-TR cull by date [13:40] schestowitz-TR once every 24 hours [13:40] schestowitz-TR => geminiaddress title [13:42] schestowitz example in gemini://midnight.pub/feed.xml [13:43] schestowitz from that, only a pair is needed [13:43] schestowitz title and URI [13:43] Techrights-sec Gemini is for GemText. [13:43] Techrights-sec The changes that have been needed in the WWW for 25 years are [13:43] Techrights-sec 1) generic XML of any DTD [13:43] Techrights-sec 2) stylesheets for the above [13:43] Techrights-sec 3) stateful http [13:43] Techrights-sec There were generic SGML rendering engines back in the middle 1990s. [13:43] Techrights-sec Doing XML should be simpler from a programming perspective, but it would still [13:43] Techrights-sec be no small task. Then the browser could display XHTML, DocBook, ODF, and so [13:43] Techrights-sec on. No scripting. They've squanders so many resources on scripting and much [13:43] Techrights-sec of that is trying to make up for the statelessness of HTTP. HTTP/3 is over UDP [13:43] Techrights-sec and so even the network connection is stateless, going the wrong direction [13:43] Techrights-sec and pushing the heavy lifting further up the stack where it is less efficient [13:43] Techrights-sec and more error prone. [13:44] Techrights-sec That's just a normal Atom feed. That's easy to whip up in Perl. [13:45] schestowitz-TR can you easily retrieve the object with perl on debian? [13:45] schestowitz-TR if so, we can easily make an aggregator in perl [13:45] schestowitz-TR and then use that [13:45] schestowitz-TR 1) for us [13:45] schestowitz-TR 2) for Daily Links [13:45] schestowitz-TR 3) for others who might look for news [13:45] schestowitz-TR it would also help thgose capsules through backlinks [13:46] Techrights-sec From the file system? Yes. [13:46] Techrights-sec Or do you mean make an aggregator for gemini feeds? [13:46] Techrights-sec It would be feasible to convert Atom and RSS feeds to Gemtext with active links. [13:48] schestowitz-TR yesterday was far too hectic on m,any frotns, but I wanted to do this and it caus [13:48] schestowitz-TR ed [13:48] schestowitz-TR overload [13:48] schestowitz-TR https://nnix.com/x/geminispace.info/known-feeds [13:48] -TechrightsBN/#boycottnovell-nnix.com | geminispace.info - Gemini Search Engine [13:48] schestowitz-TR some of these that I tried are offline, but you can highlight text in page, paste [13:48] schestowitz-TR into text editor [13:48] schestowitz-TR then pass through them and convert to a long list of articles [13:48] schestowitz-TR if they are made chronological using the data field [13:48] schestowitz-TR then it'll be easier to follow "updates" or "new" additions [13:48] schestowitz-TR I've already put some gemini:// links int eh next batch of Daily Links [13:50] schestowitz gemini://november.smol.pub/atom.xml [13:51] Techrights-sec I suppose the first step would be to make a feed generator for TR [13:51] Techrights-sec Keep in mind that GemText lacks much of any structure so all collection [13:51] Techrights-sec of metadata, including title, will have to be done manually. [13:51] Techrights-sec However, an aggregator can be made base on the Atom / RSS feeds. [13:53] schestowitz-TR gemini://november.smol.pub/atom.xml [13:53] schestowitz-TR lagrange and amfora deal ok witiuh such objects [13:53] schestowitz-TR kristall does not [13:53] schestowitz-TR but if converted into gemtext they should all cope OK [13:53] schestowitz-TR DeVault's stuff is go back end with cgi at server [13:53] schestowitz-TR so inapplicable to us ● Feb 25 [14:44] schestowitz-TR biab coffee [14:44] schestowitz-TR just askin': are you planning to hack this or should I prototype something? [14:45] Techrights-sec I can take a look [14:47] schestowitz-TR pseudocode [14:47] schestowitz-TR take list of feeds from tex file (source: URL above) [14:47] schestowitz-TR retrieve xml file [14:47] schestowitz-TR process fields, make a pair or tuple, in case there is a date [14:47] schestowitz-TR repeat for all feeds [14:47] schestowitz-TR then sort by datte of title [14:47] schestowitz-TR repeat after a while ● Feb 25 [15:01] schestowitz-TR come to thuink of it, a lot of what we use for last_rss can be reused there, [15:01] schestowitz-TR with a fetcher that uses another protocol [15:01] schestowitz-TR annd maybe that can be added to automated feeds even? [15:38] Techrights-sec ack [15:38] Techrights-sec yes some of it ● Feb 25 [16:28] schestowitz > thanks for the email. [16:28] schestowitz > [16:28] schestowitz > I thought JoinDiaspora had been sorted for the moment? But anyway, my [16:28] schestowitz > thoughts if it hasn't. [16:29] schestowitz > [16:29] schestowitz > If the migration is simple - signing up, pressing button etc - I'll [16:29] schestowitz > probably do it. Even if followers are lost, I think it's quite [16:29] schestowitz > important for our posts to be there. They are picked up by search [16:29] schestowitz > engines, and they basically seed information online. It would be a [16:29] schestowitz > shame for that to be lost - especially your huge number of posts. If [16:29] schestowitz > it's complicated, I won't bother. [16:29] schestowitz > [16:29] schestowitz > Hope that helps. [16:29] schestowitz Thanks, yes! This was the upside I had in mind. With your intuition being so, I'll keep @tuxmachines and @schestowitz accounts going. [16:29] schestowitz They will basically ask you to download your archive some time next month. Then you upload it to another pod and carry on as before (but another domain), so this should not be too hard. They try to simplify the whole thing. [16:29] schestowitz The issue was, the first pod (joindiaspora) piled up too much bugs and 'hacks' over the years, which led to huge technical debt, as they explained 2 days ago. So they want to move the active account to a 'fresh' pod. [16:29] schestowitz For more information see http://techrights.org/2022/02/24/joindiaspora-technical-debt/ [16:29] schestowitz Thanks for all the RTs in Twitter; For nearly 2 years now, as a matter of principle, I don't click anything there, so don't feel offended if I cannot recioprocate. I just export to it all my posts from diaspora. [16:29] -TechrightsBN/#boycottnovell-techrights.org | The End of JoinDiaspora. Thanks for All the Fish | Techrights [16:29] schestowitz Regards, [16:52] Techrights-sec RSS or Atom for the TR gemini feed? [16:53] schestowitz-TR ah, you make a combined feed instead of a page? I suppose that's a ghood approach [16:53] schestowitz-TR , as turning a combined feed into html or gemtext is not hard [16:53] schestowitz-TR or maybe you make an XML file for the site/capsue? ● Feb 25 [19:12] *DaemonFC (~daemonfc@yuyut9rm2hrme.irc) has joined #boycottnovell [19:21] Techrights-sec Yes, a feed for the site. [19:57] Techrights-sec I've added a script, gemini-make-feed.pl [19:57] Techrights-sec It runs manually using the settings in cron but cron seems to not run it. [19:57] Techrights-sec I'm not sure what to debug there. [19:57] Techrights-sec Once it's working in cron it can be added to Git [19:57] Techrights-sec The script creates an RSS feed for the Gemini site. [19:57] Techrights-sec Next up, the feed aggregator [19:57] schestowitz-TR excllent! Thank you! ● Feb 25 [20:04] *DaemonFC has quit (Quit: Leaving) [20:12] Techrights-sec np [20:30] *u-amarsh04 has quit (Quit: Konversation terminated!) 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