●● IRC: #boycottnovell @ FreeNode: Friday, March 26, 2021 ●● ● Mar 26 [00:16] *liberty_box has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) [00:16] *rianne__ (~rianne@host81-154-169-167.range81-154.btcentralplus.com) has joined #boycottnovell [00:16] *rianne has quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) [00:17] *liberty_box (~liberty@host81-154-169-167.range81-154.btcentralplus.com) has joined #boycottnovell ● Mar 26 [07:58] schestowitz bility issues alonehttps://twitter.com/zoobab/status/1375226937061302274 [07:58] -TechrightsBN/#boycottnovell-@zoobab: @tnoisette La FSFE devrait d'abord balayer devant sa porte https://t.co/RKkVuyVkGS [07:58] -TechrightsBN/#boycottnovell--> techrights.org | Court Case: Matthias Kirschner, FSFE Women and Volunteers Face Modern Day Slavery | Techrights [07:58] schestowitz https://twitter.com/zoobab/status/1375205214828036103 [07:58] -TechrightsBN/#boycottnovell-@zoobab: @wwahammy @RealMattMadness @RedHat @fsf In Germany victims can use courts https://t.co/RKkVuyVkGS I guess it's the https://t.co/c1ymvh2xD6 [07:58] -TechrightsBN/#boycottnovell-@zoobab: @wwahammy @RealMattMadness @RedHat @fsf In Germany victims can use courts https://t.co/RKkVuyVkGS I guess it's the https://t.co/c1ymvh2xD6 [07:58] schestowitz "In Germany victims can use courts http://techrights.org/2020/12/21/fsfe-women/ I guess it's the same in other civilized countries." [07:58] -TechrightsBN/#boycottnovell-techrights.org | Court Case: Matthias Kirschner, FSFE Women and Volunteers Face Modern Day Slavery | Techrights [07:59] schestowitz https://twitter.com/NetRoY/status/1375041653707276288 [07:59] -TechrightsBN/#boycottnovell-@NetRoY: @astr0baby GNU/FSF suffering from Founders Syndrome https://t.co/AFfI8fv7Ma [07:59] -TechrightsBN/#boycottnovell--> techrights.org | Richard Stallman is Coming Back to the Board of the Free Software Foundation, Founded by Himself 35 Years Ago (Updatedx3) | Techrights ● Mar 26 [09:38] Techrights-sec I hope that RMS is able to use this "extra" time to ensure that [09:38] Techrights-sec the FSF is idelogically grounded and that the whole group is onboard with [09:38] Techrights-sec software freedom. [09:39] schestowitz kaniini wants to remove the signature now. PROGRESS! Anyway, unlike Lunduke I don't want to pour gasoline. He reached the same conclusion while making his latest video (regarding Red Hat): focus on POSITIVES. [09:40] schestowitz RMS and Oliva speak to me this week, and the general consensus is that we'll be fine. I'm starting to doubt a video on Sunday (long rebuttal) would even be constructive at all as it brings back a topic. ● Mar 26 [10:16] Techrights-sec Yes, there is a chance to move forward at this point. Again, as I have mentioned [10:16] Techrights-sec over the yrars, as much as RMS is hoped to be with us for a long time, [10:16] Techrights-sec his priority should be on finding and establishing a strong spiritual successor [10:16] Techrights-sec figosdev brings that up in the long post, too. [10:17] schestowitz fig is sort of back, albeit too shy to admit that he wants to be back after insulting a whole bunch of us (RMS and Oliva too) in a totally unwarranted fashion [10:37] Techrights-sec well I'm glad he's back [10:37] schestowitz too proud though to apologise to us ● Mar 26 [13:11] schestowitz http://ipkitten.blogspot.com/2021/03/board-of-appeal-in-t180715-continues.html?showComment=1616749457079#c1462409161408652609 [13:11] -TechrightsBN/#boycottnovell-ipkitten.blogspot.com | BREAKING: Board of Appeal in T1807/15 continues with ViCo oral proceedings referral - The IPKat [13:11] schestowitz " [13:11] schestowitz Continued: [13:11] schestowitz This latest episode shows that it is high time that far reaching decisions made by the European Patent Office, in particular those from its Boards of Appeal, are open to proper review and scrutiny by a truly independent European Patent Court. Such a court would need to enforce the legal practices of national courts and/or the European Court of Justice legal frameworks which have arisen from interaction with end users, qualified [13:11] schestowitz judges and the actual laws of the member states, rather than being arbitrarily forced upon users by a disconnected and unaccountable body, i.e. the European Patent Office itself. [13:11] schestowitz Only in this way, that is the installation of a fully independent legal review mechanism, would decisions by one court be considered constitutional according to German law; in Germany, this practice ultimately led to the establishment of the Federal Patent Court in Germany. [13:11] schestowitz It should also not be overlooked that all European states provide for the possibility of video conferences as a substitute for oral proceedings in the classical sense, but always under the prerequisite of full consent of the parties or at the request of the parties. In Germany, this is regulated by 128 a ZPO: [13:11] schestowitz 128a - Hearing by means of video and audio transmission [13:11] schestowitz (1)The court may, on application or ex officio, permit the parties, their agents and advisers to be present at another place during oral proceedings and to perform procedural acts there. The proceedings shall be transmitted simultaneously in sound and vision to that place and to the courtroom. [13:11] schestowitz (2) The court may, on application, permit a witness, expert or party to be present at another place during a hearing. The hearing shall be transmitted simultaneously in sound and vision to that location and to the courtroom. If parties, authorized representatives and assistants have been permitted to be at another location in accordance with subsection 1 sentence 1, the hearing shall also be transmitted to that location. [13:11] schestowitz (3) The transmission shall not be recorded. Decisions under subsection (1) sentence 1 and subsection (2) sentence 1 shall be final. [13:11] schestowitz Corresponding regulations exist in other European states, in particular member states of the European Union. In this regard, reference is made to: Tilman Pfrang "Legality of Virtual Oral Proceedings under Art. 116 EPC" which can be found here: [13:11] schestowitz https://www.meissnerbolte.de/de/news/legality-of-virtual-oral-proceedings-under-art-116-epc/ [13:11] schestowitz Sincerely, [13:11] schestowitz Dr. Eugen Popp, LL.M. [13:11] -TechrightsBN/#boycottnovell-www.meissnerbolte.de | Legality of Virtual Oral Proceedings under Art. 116 EPC Pros and Cons [13:11] schestowitz Kay Rupprecht, LL.M. [13:11] schestowitz Jochen Kilchert [13:11] schestowitz Dr. Andrew J. Parker, LL.M [13:11] schestowitz " ● Mar 26 [16:14] schestowitz [16:06] i think i am going to take a break from the techrights IRC channels for a while. feel free to reach out if you need something [16:14] schestowitz [16:06] I can made voice-only the -social channel too [16:14] schestowitz [16:08] do what you wanna do [16:14] schestowitz [16:08] i just don't want to waste mental bandwidth on a troll [16:14] schestowitz [16:08] and right now, we are in a pretty stressful time in the movement [16:14] schestowitz [16:09] you've gotta take your political position, and i have to take mine, kinda sucks [16:14] schestowitz [16:09] but is what it is [16:14] schestowitz [16:10] he is not the first to disrupt that channel [16:14] schestowitz [16:10] this was done days ago by another person [16:14] schestowitz [16:11] second time in a week, done deal [16:14] schestowitz [16:11] we are under all sorts of odd attacks lately [16:14] schestowitz [16:11] not sure if you noticed, people ask loaded questions about pedophilia [16:14] schestowitz [16:11] as they fail to find something inadequate that I said over the years [16:14] schestowitz [16:11] it is all quite unfortunate [16:14] schestowitz [16:11] prior to that, attempts to associate me with "Rape" [16:14] schestowitz [16:12] so we need to lock things down to trusted voices for a bit [16:14] schestowitz [16:12] like FSF with their request not to speak to the public [16:14] schestowitz [16:12] which I totally understand [16:34] schestowitz [16:24] yeah i think people are definitely attacking you unfairly [16:34] schestowitz [16:24] they will carry on trying [16:34] schestowitz [16:24] ask me before you believe them [16:34] schestowitz [16:25] of course [16:34] schestowitz [16:27] thanks :-) [16:34] schestowitz [16:27] for everything ● Mar 26 [17:43] schestowitz >> I've just taken a look at some pages, but an still failing to understand [17:43] schestowitz >> what this Ice Breaker is and what it is for? Usually I don't like to [17:43] schestowitz >> prepare scripted talks. It's time-consuming. [17:43] schestowitz > I decided to respond to that with my blog [17:43] schestowitz > https://danielpocock.com/positive-alternatives-to-codes-of-conduct/ [17:43] -TechrightsBN/#boycottnovell-danielpocock.com | Positive alternatives to Codes of Conduct [17:43] schestowitz > [17:43] schestowitz > There is another group meeting tonight in Dublin: [17:43] schestowitz > https://uncensoredspeakers.toastmasterclub.org/ [17:43] schestowitz > [17:43] schestowitz > If you would like to watch, I think this is their link [17:43] schestowitz > [17:43] schestowitz > https://us02web.zoom.us/j/277302726?pwd=VjFuVy9rUXpEMXRLRFhRc1pYZHRMUT09#success [17:43] schestowitz > [17:43] schestowitz > and the contact is Geraldine [17:43] schestowitz > geraldine@72ndstreet.com [17:43] -TechrightsBN/#boycottnovell-Resolving timed out after 10519 milliseconds ( status 0 @ https://uncensoredspeakers.toastmasterclub.org/ ) [17:43] -TechrightsBN/#boycottnovell-us02web.zoom.us | Launch Meeting - Zoom [17:43] schestowitz > [17:43] schestowitz > The Ice Breaker is an exercise that is suitable for anybody to begin, [17:43] schestowitz > sometimes a first time participant has never done a speech before, [17:43] schestowitz > sometimes they have a lot of experience but everybody does one of these. [17:43] schestowitz > It is not necessary to do a speech though, there are many other roles [17:43] schestowitz > in the meeting, for example, evaluating other speakers. This develops [17:43] schestowitz > coaching skills. As I wrote in the blog, if more people develop skills [17:43] schestowitz > like this, it becomes a buffer against censorship. [17:43] schestowitz I've just been told something to that effect, related to libreplanet censorship of RMS supporters: [17:43] schestowitz [17:25] I got the boot from another Matrix room yesterday for saying that the cancel RMS petition is ridiculous and most of the signatures come from trolls who have connections to big tech companies who want to take control of your computer away from you. ● Mar 26 [18:22] *rianne__ has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) [18:22] *liberty_box has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) [18:32] *rianne__ (~rianne@host81-154-169-167.range81-154.btcentralplus.com) has joined #boycottnovell [18:34] *liberty_box (~liberty@host81-154-169-167.range81-154.btcentralplus.com) has joined #boycottnovell ● Mar 26 [22:10] *rianne__ has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) [22:10] *liberty_box has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) [22:16] *rianne__ (~rianne@host81-154-169-167.range81-154.btcentralplus.com) has joined #boycottnovell [22:18] *liberty_box (~liberty@host81-154-169-167.range81-154.btcentralplus.com) has joined #boycottnovell ● Mar 26 [23:39] schestowitz https://twitter.com/kamiljdudek/status/1375549033943605253 [23:39] -TechrightsBN/#boycottnovell-@kamiljdudek: @SmugYeti @thebookisclosed Microsoft has a tradition of having too many mail programs, where even the ISVs had no i https://t.co/CD3vqAumFs [23:39] -TechrightsBN/#boycottnovell-@kamiljdudek: @SmugYeti @thebookisclosed Microsoft has a tradition of having too many mail programs, where even the ISVs had no i https://t.co/CD3vqAumFs [23:39] schestowitz " [23:39] schestowitz Microsoft has a tradition of having too many mail programs, where even the ISVs had no idea what to expect: [23:39] schestowitz http://techrights.org/wiki/index.php/Athena_and_shell_extension [23:39] -TechrightsBN/#boycottnovell-techrights.org | Athena and shell extension - Techrights [23:40] schestowitz The only mention of 'Thor' I know was on IRC. It was "Athena after Exchange/Messaging/Exchange got dropped from Windows". So Nashville'ized Athena. [23:40] schestowitz " [23:44] schestowitz https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=26535224 [23:44] -TechrightsBN/#boycottnovell-news.ycombinator.com | Richard Stallman is coming back to the board of the FSF | Hacker News [23:44] schestowitz " [23:44] schestowitz I think it is strange that, on the one hand, the tech world has been advocating for the rights of neurodivergent people society should accept that people on the autism spectrum are different and thats OK. But at the same time RMS has been attacked for some statements very probably stemming from his autism that, while they may seem a bit shocking and at odds with the mainstream, were not illegal or intentionally offensive. [23:45] schestowitz reply [23:45] schestowitz [23:45] schestowitz nostrademons 4 days ago [] [23:45] schestowitz Ribbonfarm called this a couple years ago: [23:45] schestowitz https://www.ribbonfarm.com/2018/03/06/a-quick-battle-field-g... [23:45] schestowitz Specifically battlefront #8. He calls it consequential because the the neurodivergent/PC conflict highlights an inherent paradox in the PC worldview. Most applications of political correctness focus (at least on the surface) on defending a marginalized group against the verbal attacks of a privileged one. When applied to autistic or neurodivergent individuals, however, PC norms work to disadvantage an already disadvantaged minority [23:45] -TechrightsBN/#boycottnovell-www.ribbonfarm.com | A Quick (Battle) Field Guide to the New Culture Wars [23:45] schestowitz against groups that are both larger and often more economically and culturally free. [23:45] schestowitz reply [23:45] schestowitz [23:45] schestowitz Aloha 4 days ago [] [23:45] schestowitz It's like this, I've spent a lifetime learning a rulebook by trial and error that everyone else just seems to know. [23:45] schestowitz It's absolutely maddening when the rules suddenly change for no discernible reason, often with little warning and grave consequences with no second chances for screwing it up. [23:45] schestowitz I see people clamoring for a safe spaces and I wonder where I can find such a thing? (To an extent I can find one at sci-fi, anime and furry conventions are mostly safe spaces for people like me, it's just jarring when I need to leave) [23:45] schestowitz reply [23:45] schestowitz [23:45] schestowitz sterlind 4 days ago [] [23:45] schestowitz I relate because I've been there, I think. Before I transitioned I had pretty strong ASD and couldn't figure out how to answer simple questions like "what's up?" or if I should wave to someone I've met twice if they're 15 feet away walking towards me. [23:45] schestowitz Transitioning did something to my brain chemistry and let me read social cues nearly overnight, but I got friends by delving into the LGBT community. Maybe furry cons is a good approach? [23:45] schestowitz reply [23:45] schestowitz [23:45] schestowitz exikyut 4 days ago [] [23:45] schestowitz Wh...a. Transitioning fixed your social cue perception?! [23:45] schestowitz That is incredibly fascinating. I'm not even sure how to classify that... pragmatic psychological function (oookay that's probably not a thing), neurobiology, or what else. [23:45] schestowitz IMO this is a gigantic breadcrumb for Something. The question is what the axis point was, and what got fixed as a result. Cooool. [23:45] schestowitz I am very curious what else shifted that you'd be happy to share. [23:45] schestowitz reply [23:45] schestowitz [23:45] schestowitz sterlind 4 days ago [] [23:45] schestowitz I have no idea why it happened, I'm just so grateful it did. It was like suddenly seeing color for the first time. When I looked at someone, I could read their intentions and actually feel their feelings. I wasn't a sociopath before or anything, but I couldn't feel empathy. [23:45] schestowitz This definitely does not happen to every aspie trans woman, but I've heard of it happening to one or two others. [23:45] schestowitz I was worried about losing my intelligence, since I attributed a lot of that to ASD, but actually all my major breakthroughs came after transitioning. My first algorithm that got me noticed was like, 6 months in. [23:45] schestowitz The only real downside was that switching to estrogen unmasked my Ehlers-Danlos Syndrome, and I've become physically disabled. I'm still able to work and think and feel so it's a good trade for me! [23:45] schestowitz reply [23:45] schestowitz [23:45] schestowitz Aloha 4 days ago [] [23:45] schestowitz The only thing ASD gives me is a measure of clarity - because all of the hidden rules of society are not hidden to me, they're things I need to learn with intent, it gives me a measure of clarity into which rules are required, and which ones are not, when they can be broken and when they can't be. [23:45] schestowitz I'm not gonna say I'd like to be normal, because I have no real construct of what normal would be like - but ASD also gives me one more insight, normality is an illusion foisted on people by society - all humans are some measure of weird, its just a question of how much, and in what way. [23:45] schestowitz Ehlers-Danlos may have shown up anyhow, so that doesnt strike me as a downside even, if that makes sense, if anything you got a benefit by finding it sooner. [23:45] schestowitz reply [23:45] schestowitz [23:46] schestowitz restalis 3 days ago [] [23:46] schestowitz "all humans are some measure of weird, its just a question of how much, and in what way" [23:46] schestowitz This is true. However, from a similar (mild form, partially dealt with) ASD observer point of view, I also noticed that the said peculiarities in one's character are like food ingredients. It's about the way one manages to blend them in a recipe and to cook them into something tasteful (for others) that makes or breaks the social connections. Having ASD is like having no smell or taste of your own and you have to rely on the [23:46] schestowitz observed reactions in others for measurements. Obviously, it's a challenge to be a cook in such circumstance and the best strategy (if you care) then probably is just to assume damage and operate in damage control mode all the time. [23:46] schestowitz reply [23:46] schestowitz [23:46] schestowitz Aloha 3 days ago [] [23:46] schestowitz I do operate in damage control all the time, its much much easier to be good at apologizing, than it is to prevent that offense. [23:46] schestowitz reply [23:46] schestowitz [23:46] schestowitz TulliusCicero 3 days ago [] [23:46] schestowitz So, stereotypically, women are more socially aware than men. Personally, this is something I've definitely noticed strongly with boys vs girls, even from a young age the girls seem to be more aware of others around them and their emotional state, whereas the boys usually seem more oblivious (on average, obviously, not saying this applies to every single girl or boy). [23:46] schestowitz I know many social progressives would argue this is due to socialization...but the effect seems too strong at too early an age to blame solely on socialization to me. [23:46] schestowitz On a related note, I recently read an article about trans men where one noted that they seemed to have become more conversationally impatient, and blamed it on the different hormones: https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/local/wp/2018/07/20/feat... [23:46] schestowitz > "The hormones made me more impatient. I had lots of female friends and one of the qualities they loved about me was that I was a great listener. After being on testosterone, they informed me that my listening skills werent what they used to be. Heres an example: Im driving with one of my best friends, Beth, and I ask her Is your sister meeting us for dinner? Ten minutes later shes still talking and I still have [23:46] schestowitz no idea if her sister is coming. So finally, I couldnt take it anymore, and I snapped and said, IS SHE COMING OR NOT? And Beth was like, You know, you used to like hearing all the backstory and how Id get around to the answer. A lot of us have noticed youve become very impatient lately and we think its that damn testosterone! Its definitely true that some male behavior is governed by hormones. Instead of [23:46] schestowitz listening to a womans problem and being empathetic and nodding along, I would do the stereotypical guy thing interrupt and provide a solution to cut the conversation short and move on. Im trying to be better about this." [23:46] schestowitz reply [23:46] schestowitz [23:46] schestowitz novok 4 days ago [] [23:46] schestowitz Autistic MtF programmers is something that happens enough to be a trope, joke or meme. [23:46] schestowitz reply [23:46] schestowitz [23:46] schestowitz dralley 4 days ago [] [23:46] schestowitz Also, frankly, many of them happen to be bloody brilliant, seemingly much moreso than average. [23:46] schestowitz reply [23:46] -TechrightsBN/#boycottnovell- ( status 404 @ https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/local/wp/2018/07/20/feat/ ) [23:46] schestowitz [23:46] schestowitz orthoxerox 4 days ago [] [23:46] schestowitz This usually doesn't fix their issues beyond dysphoria, though. [23:46] schestowitz reply [23:46] schestowitz [23:46] schestowitz novok 4 days ago [] [23:46] schestowitz Somewhere in the comments here, one of them said "estrogen fixed my social autism". That is really surprising. [23:46] schestowitz reply [23:46] schestowitz [23:46] schestowitz roflc0ptic 4 days ago [] [23:46] schestowitz No citation in this, but being trans correlates with being autistic [23:46] schestowitz reply [23:46] schestowitz [23:46] schestowitz owl57 4 days ago [] [23:47] schestowitz Would seem logical. I was alien enough to boys to land at the "girls table" in school canteen when I was 11. Pieces of experience like this could probably help to start considering the possibility. [23:47] schestowitz reply [23:47] schestowitz [23:47] schestowitz lawnchair_larry 3 days ago [flagged] [] [23:47] schestowitz This is an extremely dangerous and absolutely insane line of reasoning that is causing incredible harm to young people. You dont have gender dysphoria because you hung out with girls as an 11 year old. [23:47] schestowitz reply [23:47] schestowitz [23:47] schestowitz owl57 3 days ago [] [23:47] schestowitz No. I actually don't know a real thing about gender dysphoria. I just presumed that if you look square and feel round, you are more likely to recognize and embrace your roundness if your other traits make society less consistent in squeezing you into square holes. [23:47] schestowitz reply [23:47] schestowitz [23:47] schestowitz eyelidlessness 3 days ago [] [23:47] schestowitz This is an awful way to talk to people about their own experiences. [23:47] schestowitz reply [23:47] schestowitz [23:47] schestowitz krageon 3 days ago [] [23:47] schestowitz It comes from a reasonable place: It shouldn't be generalised. You may have issues with specific things that were said (or how they were said), but that isn't clear from your response. Perhaps you could add that, so the author can learn. [23:47] schestowitz reply [23:47] schestowitz [23:47] schestowitz eyelidlessness 3 days ago [] [23:47] schestowitz I take issue with every part of it. The claim that the other persons experience is dangerous, that its insane, that its harming children, and that they didnt experience it. [23:47] schestowitz reply [23:47] schestowitz [23:47] schestowitz krageon 2 days ago [] [23:47] schestowitz You didn't really engage with what I said at all, except at the most superficial level. It's really not a very nice way to have a conversation, especially given that regardless of whether or not I agree I was absolutely trying to help you. [23:47] schestowitz reply [23:47] schestowitz [23:47] schestowitz eyelidlessness 2 days ago [] [23:47] schestowitz Im sorry but Im not sure I understand what youre trying to get from me here. [23:47] schestowitz You said: [23:47] schestowitz > You may have issues with specific things that were said (or how they were said), but that isn't clear from your response. Perhaps you could add that, so the author can learn. [23:47] schestowitz I addressed those specifics, as far as I can tell all of the specifics of substance. I was engaging your suggestion in good faith. I did take and accept it as helpful. Im open to the possibility theres some nuance Im missing? [23:47] schestowitz reply [23:47] schestowitz [23:47] schestowitz krageon 1 day ago [] [23:47] schestowitz In that case I apologise. [23:47] schestowitz The nuance that I think you are missing is that the OP is talking about how the experience shouldn't be generalised and turned into a rule: The person responded to said that sitting at the girl's table should be an indicator that starts consideration of "maybe this is gender dysphoria". The OP thinks this is dangerous and harmful to children in it's proposed form. [23:47] schestowitz I'm missing a lot of cultural context here (What is a "girl's table"?), but I can definitely see the point OP is trying to make. I'll agree with you it was worded problematically. [23:47] schestowitz reply [23:47] schestowitz [23:48] schestowitz eyelidlessness 1 day ago [] [23:48] schestowitz Thank you for explaining your perspective, I understand the disconnect much better now. I went back and read the comment (the girls table one, not the dangerous response), and even trying to apply your clarification I still dont read it as generalizing. I see that commenter applying to themselves and their own experience a more general statement from the comment above. In other words I see them identifying with it [23:48] schestowitz personally, not applying it to anyone else. [23:48] schestowitz reply [23:48] schestowitz [23:48] schestowitz lawnchair_larry 2 days ago [] [23:48] schestowitz I claimed zero of those things, so maybe you misread the comment. [23:48] schestowitz reply [23:48] schestowitz [23:48] schestowitz eyelidlessness 2 days ago [] [23:48] schestowitz I read it again and it still reads the same way to me. Maybe youd be willing to clarify what you did mean? [23:48] schestowitz reply [23:48] schestowitz [23:48] schestowitz wizzwizz4 2 days ago [] [23:48] schestowitz https://xkcd.com/1984 [23:48] -TechrightsBN/#boycottnovell-xkcd.com | xkcd: Misinterpretation [23:48] schestowitz reply [23:48] schestowitz [23:48] schestowitz dgellow 4 days ago [] [23:48] schestowitz What is an MtF programmer? I read it as Microsoft programmer but that doesn't really make that much sense in the context. [23:48] schestowitz reply [23:48] schestowitz [23:48] schestowitz cpach 4 days ago [] [23:48] schestowitz MtF = Male to Female [23:48] schestowitz reply [23:48] schestowitz [23:48] schestowitz reycharles 4 days ago [] [23:48] schestowitz Why did you make this comment? [23:48] schestowitz reply [23:48] schestowitz [23:48] schestowitz chousuke 4 days ago [] [23:48] schestowitz Intuitively, it makes sense for something like this to be possible, though I wonder what the trigger is. Drastic change in hormonal balance caused by the transitioning process activating / connecting parts of the brain that were "malfunctioning" previously? Or "just" a result of increased happiness stemming from having dealt with a large problem?Sounds hideously difficult to replicate. [23:48] schestowitz reply [23:48] schestowitz [23:48] schestowitz exikyut 4 days ago [] [23:48] schestowitz Oh yeah... the dismorphia effect and similar anxieties. Of course. Never experienced any of it myself, didn't realize how big of a potential factor it could be until reading your comment. [23:48] schestowitz I was mostly considering the fact that the female hormone, uh, configuration is naturally pro-social, and that dumping that set of hormone balances on the brain promptly elicits the associated responses - ie, that the response (or rather the tendency for those responses to function properly) becomes a partial function of hormone state. [23:48] schestowitz But those sort of general factors (including elevated mood) would definitely be a part of the end result. [23:48] schestowitz reply [23:48] schestowitz [23:48] schestowitz chousuke 4 days ago [] [23:49] schestowitz I'm wary of making assumptions about "natural" differences between males and females, since it's easy to confuse them with cultural stereotypes, ie. what you've learned to think of as "normal" vs. what actually is "normal". [23:49] schestowitz It may well be be that some component that's typically more prevalent in females plays a key role in the development of prosocial tendencies. If such a component were identified, it would be interesting to study its involvement in the development of both males and females. [23:49] schestowitz reply [23:49] schestowitz [23:49] schestowitz Aloha 4 days ago [] [23:49] schestowitz Not the poster, but I too am curious about their thoughts, however I have some of my own. [23:49] schestowitz Men and Women experience socialization in fundamentally different ways, because of this I suspect the changing hormonal balance reawakens pathways not used normally, basically. In addition, you basically have a chance while transitioning to relearn socialization from scratch basically, with those new pathways awakened. [23:49] schestowitz reply [23:49] schestowitz [23:49] schestowitz exikyut 4 days ago [] [23:49] schestowitz Hm, that honestly sounds about 90% of the way to a reasonable explanation. [23:49] schestowitz In my own experience I've found as that as a majority of my own marbles have figured out "OH, that's which way is up", my own pragmatic learning capacity has transformed from "transmutation ray that turns everything into indecipherable, unmovable rubble" and... what almost feels like a happy grid of FPGAs that bustle about classifying and organizing without me really having to make much effort. After leaving ideas and subjects for [23:49] schestowitz long enough (10+ years in some cases) that old broken memories/associations have just about completely died out, yeah, I definitely can look at things with new eyes. [23:49] schestowitz Discovering that HRT can trigger or you might even say accelerate this process is very fascinating, because it sort of maybe points in the direction of the root causes that break everything in the first place. [23:49] schestowitz reply [23:49] schestowitz [23:49] schestowitz paganel 4 days ago [] [23:49] schestowitz > or if I should wave to someone I've met twice if they're 15 feet away walking towards me. [23:49] schestowitz To be honest, nobody knows for sure. I call these "Seinfeld moments", as in you could make an entire Seinfeld episode out of talking about it: should I have waived? If yes, I did waive, why didn't the other person waive back? Was it because he/she didn't see me? Was it because he/she did in fact see me but didn't like me? etc. [23:49] schestowitz reply [23:49] schestowitz [23:49] schestowitz mkl 4 days ago [] [23:49] schestowitz "Wave". "Waive" is something entirely different: https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/waive [23:49] schestowitz But maybe Seinfeld could have made an episode about your version too. [23:49] -TechrightsBN/#boycottnovell-en.wiktionary.org | waive - Wiktionary [23:49] schestowitz reply [23:49] schestowitz [23:49] schestowitz paganel 4 days ago [] [23:49] schestowitz Thanks for that correction, non-native English speaker commenting before my usual morning coffee. [23:49] schestowitz reply [23:49] schestowitz [23:49] schestowitz Aloha 4 days ago [] [23:49] schestowitz I'm pretty sure you'd find yourself at home there, we also have a large trans/gender non-conforming contingent in the community. [23:49] schestowitz reply [23:49] schestowitz [23:49] schestowitz silver-machine 1 day ago [] [23:49] schestowitz One more thing: back in the nineties and oughties furries were a punchline in my crowd. Furries were hilarious. You could make any joke funnier by putting a furry in it. They were like Nickleback that way. [23:49] schestowitz Things changed -- or at least I changed. I don't use furries as a punchline anymore, and none of my friends do, and I'm like "c'mon please don't do that" if anyone does. [23:49] schestowitz Sure, it makes it harder to tell jokes sometimes, but who cares about that? [23:49] schestowitz reply [23:49] schestowitz [23:50] schestowitz dale_glass 4 days ago [] [23:50] schestowitz A safe space is simply a space you control, or one moderated in your favor. [23:50] schestowitz So for instance, your house is a safe space if you own it and decide who comes and goes, or if your parents are on your side and kick out people that cross your lines. [23:50] schestowitz reply [23:50] schestowitz [23:50] schestowitz louhike 4 days ago [] [23:50] schestowitz I don't think there can be a real safe space. Toxic things for some might not be for others, reassuring things for some might be violent for others. It does not mean we should not try to improve how we behave, but it's important to understand it's impossible to have a generic rulebook we can apply everywhere to be safe with everyone. [23:50] schestowitz As an example, some swearwords might really violent to hear for some people, but disallowing their use will be quite hard for those who lived in an environment where it was important part of communication. And it's often use as a distinction between rich and poor people (at least in France). [23:50] schestowitz reply [23:50] schestowitz [23:50] schestowitz biztos 4 days ago [] [23:50] schestowitz Do the rich swear more in France, or the poor? [23:50] schestowitz reply [23:50] schestowitz [23:50] schestowitz yoz-y 4 days ago [] [23:50] schestowitz I too wonder. One thing that I found quite interesting when moving to France was how casual everybody, even high school teachers, was with swearwords. [23:50] schestowitz reply [23:50] schestowitz [23:50] schestowitz mpweiher 4 days ago [] [23:50] schestowitz Not sure where you are from originally, but the US is fairly unique in the world when it comes to these things. [23:50] schestowitz reply [23:50] schestowitz [23:50] schestowitz DubiousPusher 4 days ago [] [23:50] schestowitz I'm getting on aside note on a side note already but this bumps into something I've been thinking about for days now so I can't resist. [23:50] schestowitz I'm beginning to think the swearing thing in the U.S. has to do with a perception of the concept of "innocence". Because I've noticed a lot of people only begin to have a problem with swearing here when it involves children. For sure, there are people who are just generally against swearing for religious or etiquette reasons. However, having kids really seems to change a large number of people into prudes regarding swears. [23:50] schestowitz I'll admit, when I first heard my 4 year old swear it was jarring. But I thought it through and was like, "my wife and I swear all the time, why can't the kid swear? I can either cave to this uncomfortable feeling or extend my kid the same privallege I extend myself." [23:50] schestowitz At one point, my brother came to stay with us. He swears like a sailor yet when my kid swore, he was shocked. Not 10 minutes before he was cursing in front of the kid. [23:50] schestowitz I also have friends who swore often when we were at college together and they started forbidding swears when they didn't like hearing it coming from their 3 year old. [23:50] schestowitz American culture still has a partial obsession with virginity and the concept of innocence and my best guess is that this subconsciously extends to people's expectations for their children. [23:50] schestowitz reply [23:50] schestowitz [23:50] schestowitz sildur 22 hours ago [] [23:50] schestowitz Here in Spain we try not to swear in front of kids (because we know they will copy it), and we find jarring to hear a kid swear. More or less jarring depending on the word. I remember my surprise the first time I heard a grandma swear (I was a teen at that moment). I assumed grandmas never swore. [23:50] schestowitz reply [23:50] schestowitz [23:50] schestowitz Y_Y 4 days ago [] [23:50] schestowitz America is weird in lots of ways, but discouraging children from swearing, and generally trying to inculcate "polite" behaviour is normal throughout the Anglosphere. [23:50] schestowitz reply [23:50] schestowitz [23:50] schestowitz mpweiher 4 days ago [] [23:51] schestowitz I think the word you're looking for might be "puritanism". [23:51] schestowitz reply [23:51] schestowitz [23:51] schestowitz DubiousPusher 4 days ago [] [23:51] schestowitz Yes but a little more specifically, a kind of reactionary puritanism. In that it is triggered as a reaction to entering family life and not driven by a set of consistent lifelong values. [23:51] schestowitz reply [23:51] schestowitz [23:51] schestowitz yoz-y 4 days ago [] [23:51] schestowitz From eastern Europe, everybody swore but not openly in school during class. [23:51] schestowitz reply [23:51] schestowitz [23:51] schestowitz silver-machine 1 day ago [] [23:51] schestowitz Aloha, yeah, I hear you. The world has changed a lot in my 49 years and some of it is unrecognizable to me. [23:51] schestowitz however, this is an imperfect world that needs a lot of change, and it's not going to stop changing, so you're going to have to figure this out. I assume you're a technologist, you are already dealing with constant change? How is this any different? [23:51] schestowitz Think about it this way: Would you hire an SDE who told you they coded down to Java 1.4 standards because that's where their comfort zone is? Java 1.4 is not where the world is in 2021, just like being creepy to your colleagues is not where 2021 is. [23:51] schestowitz reply [23:51] schestowitz [23:51] schestowitz exikyut 4 days ago [] [23:51] schestowitz What's both practically sad and scientifically ridiculously fascinating is that the cognitive dissonance goes both ways. See also, furry culture representation in general. [23:51] schestowitz reply [23:51] schestowitz [23:51] schestowitz Aloha 4 days ago [] [23:51] schestowitz I'm perfectly okay with us being presented as weird, it keeps the normal people away. ;-) [23:51] schestowitz Did you mean something else? [23:51] schestowitz reply [23:51] schestowitz [23:51] schestowitz exikyut 4 days ago [] [23:51] schestowitz I remember reading someone come to roughly the same conclusion on /r/furry a while back, it was nice. So yeah, I do mostly mean that. [23:51] schestowitz But the reason there was a bit of extra hesitancy there is that I straddle the line on socialization to the extent that while half my brain would probably love going to a con, the other half would basically be cognitive-dissonance-BSODing the entire time. And I'm not sure if repeating "surrealism is art, surrealism is art" would be enough to get me through; I'd probably end up deciding those three specific people over there were [23:51] schestowitz safe and hiding behind them the entire time, while simultaneously responding mostly neurotypically to all the social-cue whooshes as I watched them happen. (The missed cues would be what I was hiding from.) [23:51] schestowitz reply [23:51] schestowitz [23:51] schestowitz Aloha 4 days ago [] [23:51] schestowitz Fandom interactions have their own well defined rules and norms. I apply one rulebook for fandom, another one for work, another one for non fandom friendly social interactions, just pondering it lightly, I can identify 6 or so unique rulebooks I use for different kinds of social interactions. I suspect I have even more. [23:51] schestowitz reply [23:51] schestowitz [23:51] schestowitz WindyLakeReturn 2 days ago [] [23:51] schestowitz >To an extent I can find one at sci-fi, anime and furry conventions are mostly safe spaces for people like me [23:51] schestowitz Is it a safe space when what you say can be video taped and then used against you by all the other areas of life? [23:51] schestowitz reply [23:52] schestowitz [23:52] schestowitz jedimastert 4 days ago [] [23:52] schestowitz I will once again say that this is why I don't have a Twitter [23:52] schestowitz reply [23:52] schestowitz [23:52] schestowitz imwillofficial 3 days ago [] [23:52] schestowitz Kids being harmed is always a no no. [23:52] schestowitz reply [23:52] schestowitz [23:52] schestowitz 2muchcoffeeman 4 days ago [] [23:52] schestowitz Its been going on for a while already. [23:52] schestowitz Some years ago there was a case where a woman in Melbourne called out a man for harassing her on public transport. Turns out he was autistic and was outgoing to everyone. His friend had to post on Facebook to stop people sharing a video of the autistic man. [23:52] schestowitz Helen Pluckrose also posted on Twitter a similar story. A man she would help checkin on because he was autistic would get complaints from women for harassment. It was a suggestion from his therapist to help him socialise. [23:52] schestowitz reply [23:52] schestowitz [23:52] schestowitz happymellon 4 days ago [] [23:52] schestowitz Not that long ago there was that Twitter thing where a woman posted a picture of a guy brazenly checking out her top. [23:52] schestowitz Turned out he had a lazy eye and is daughter had to step up to defend him. Quick to judge and make a scene unfortunately. [23:52] schestowitz reply [23:52] schestowitz [23:52] schestowitz throwaway894345 4 days ago [] [23:52] schestowitz > Most applications of political correctness focus (at least on the surface) on defending a marginalized group against the verbal attacks of a privileged one. [23:52] schestowitz I dispute the idea that PC is mostly defensive in nature; rather it seems to be overwhelmingly offensive, targeting people who frequently arent even in advantaged groups themselves. I would also suggest that Jews are treated pretty badly by the PC folks, as are Asians (although #StopAsianHate in the wake of what appears to be a non-hate-crime has been a convenient bludgeon). [23:52] schestowitz reply [23:52] schestowitz [23:52] schestowitz ethbr0 4 days ago [] [23:52] schestowitz Honestly asking, what's the difference between someone being neurodivergent and just thoughtless / mean / an ass? [23:52] schestowitz reply [23:52] schestowitz [23:52] schestowitz rossnordby 4 days ago [] [23:52] schestowitz The 'neurodivergent' umbrella covers a much wider set of things than just 'degree to which the person is perceived to be a jerk'. The perception of jerkitude is usually a side effect of something else complicated. [23:52] schestowitz For example, take the DSM5 criteria for ASD, one type of neurodivergence. Here's just a single factor: [23:52] schestowitz Deficits in nonverbal communicative behaviors used for social interaction, ranging, for example, from poorly integrated verbal and nonverbal communication; to abnormalities in eye contact and body language or deficits in understanding and use of gestures; to a total lack of facial expressions and nonverbal communication. (From https://www.cdc.gov/ncbddd/autism/hcp-dsm.html) [23:52] -TechrightsBN/#boycottnovell-www.cdc.gov | Diagnostic Criteria | Autism Spectrum Disorder (ASD) | NCBDDD | CDC [23:52] schestowitz A formal diagnosis of ASD would involve a number of these factors. As you might imagine, if you stack enough things like that on a person, it'll tend to be noticed, even when they're trying to hide it. [23:52] schestowitz In the context of being mean, upon being told that they were being a jerk, a person with ASD might think "ah shit, not again" or maybe "wait what, no I wasn't, it doesn't make sense that they'd be offended by that" or something along those lines. The nuances of the behavior and the motivations behind it will tend to be a little different than in a 'neurotypical' perceived as being a jerk. [23:52] schestowitz reply [23:52] schestowitz [23:52] schestowitz eyelidlessness 4 days ago [] [23:52] schestowitz If youre honestly asking, its a rude question as stated. But if youre sincerely admitting you dont understand the difference, the difference is this: [23:52] schestowitz Many people (including myself) have difficulty with certain social cues and expectations. Many of us can be offputting or come off as overly direct or disrespectful. Where we diverge is when and how we address that fact. Do we (only) lash out and expect the world to accommodate our conclusions, or do we (ever or readily) reflect on that conflict and try to live in some kind of shared world? [23:53] schestowitz Obviously what Im describing is a spectrum, not an absolute. But if youre trying to understand whether someone on the spectrum is a jerk, your answer is how much do they use their social faculties to navigate sharing a world? [23:53] schestowitz Which is pretty much the same measure as anyone not on the spectrum. [23:53] schestowitz reply [23:53] schestowitz [23:53] schestowitz Noos 4 days ago [] [23:53] *rianne__ has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) [23:53] schestowitz To be blunt, I think a lot of people here misuse autism. The autistic person I had to deal with a lot of times had "difficulty" with social cues in that he was an adult that had no idea of not standing by others when they were working, would endlessly repeat things, was more or less impossible to hold a conversation with, etc. We more or less had to babysit him as impromptu caretakers. [23:53] schestowitz It isn't "oh, I don't know how to read a room." Even granting high function, I feel people use autism in the same way as they do OCD; it's not something you use "neurodivergent" with seriously. [23:53] schestowitz Like generally there's a lot of disability chic or identity these days; but moderate autism makes it incredibly hard to act in daily life in the same way moderate OCD does. If it's significant enough, it's not just someone being brisk or unempathetic in the same way OCD doesn't mean being a neat freak. [23:53] schestowitz reply [23:53] schestowitz [23:53] schestowitz onion2k 4 days ago [] [23:53] schestowitz moderate OCD [23:53] schestowitz People who claim to have "moderate OCD" are just people who like things being tidy, and describe it as OCD because they have no understanding of the real, debilitating condition. Describing yourself as "moderately obsessive" makes no sense, and being able to live with the untidiness means you are not compulsively tidying. [23:53] schestowitz A huge part of the problem with mental health problems is people using the terminology as some sort of 'badge of honor', as if it's something cool and trendy to have rather than an illness that can ruin your life. People really need to stop saying they have OCD unless they've been diagnosed by a professional. [23:53] schestowitz reply [23:53] schestowitz [23:53] schestowitz wccrawford 4 days ago [] [23:53] schestowitz While I agree they don't fully understand OCD, I think they know enough about it to sympathize. They know enough to know they don't actually have it, just some light compulsions. [23:53] *liberty_box has quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) [23:53] schestowitz And as for "moderately obese"... I wouldn't have previously described myself that way, but I fit it. My doctor tells me I'm medically obese. Nobody looking at me would describe me that way, but they would admit that I'm over-weight. They all say I look fine and don't need to lose more weight, though. If that's not "moderately obese", I don't know what would be. [23:53] schestowitz What the world needs are terms to describe compulsive behavior, succinctly, other than "moderate OCD". I definitely have things that bother me immensely if I don't fix them, but it isn't to the point that I need help with it. I clearly don't have "OCD", but what do I have? There's no word for it. [23:53] schestowitz I've stopped using the term OCD for anything about me, because I know it bothers other people. But I don't get mad at those who continue to use it because there's no proper term, and thus no way to actually correct their behavior. Only to stifle them. And I don't do that to other people. [23:53] schestowitz reply [23:53] schestowitz [23:53] schestowitz skissane 4 days ago [] [23:53] schestowitz > And as for "moderately obese"... I wouldn't have previously described myself that way, but I fit it. [23:53] schestowitz Obesity is divided into 3 classes: class 1 (low-risk, BMI 30.0 to 34.9), class 2 (moderate-risk, 35.0 to 39.9), class 3 (high risk, 40.0 or higher). Using the term "moderate obesity" for class 2 obesity may not be exactly standard, but it has some logic to it. [23:53] schestowitz > I clearly don't have "OCD", but what do I have? There's no word for it. [23:53] schestowitz Is it possible you have subclinical OCD? [23:53] schestowitz https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/18849913/ [23:53] -TechrightsBN/#boycottnovell-pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov | Subclinical obsessive-compulsive disorder in children and adolescents: additional results from a "high-risk" study - PubMed [23:53] schestowitz (Or maybe subclinical OCPD?) [23:53] schestowitz reply [23:53] schestowitz [23:53] schestowitz wccrawford 4 days ago [] [23:53] schestowitz IIRC, I'd actually be class 1 obese by that list, now. So maybe "Slightly obese"? That sounds even more ridiculous, but it's pretty accurate. [23:53] schestowitz As for the OCD... Even that description sounds worse than what I have. But the existence of "subclinical OCD" makes me even less worried about people claiming to have "moderate OCD" or something. Not only is it a spectrum, but the experts seem to be fine with using the word to describe people that are almost it, with some qualifying words. [23:53] schestowitz reply [23:53] schestowitz [23:53] schestowitz eyelidlessness 3 days ago [] [23:53] schestowitz Maybe theyre not almost, but less encumbered by it than more severe cases. [23:53] schestowitz The thing about a spectrum is it makes room for people who, by necessity or will, share the symptomatic experience but lack some of the disabling impact. The benefit of that inclusion is that those people are able to benefit from a diagnosis and relevant treatment even if theyre not in the direst straits. [23:54] schestowitz In my own experience, this meant that I was able to begin treatment for ADHD even though Id had over a decade as a successful adult. And that treatment saved my life. Sure, I made it that far with what I could scrap together in myself and my luck in life. But when that wasnt enough, my moderate case revealed its severity. If Id had access to that diagnosis and care earlier it probably wouldnt have ever been so [23:54] schestowitz severe. [23:54] schestowitz reply [23:54] schestowitz [23:54] schestowitz AlexandrB 4 days ago [] [23:54] schestowitz Off topic, but using BMI and not body fat percentage to define obesity in an individual seems dubious at best. [23:54] schestowitz > Keys explicitly judged BMI as appropriate for population studies and inappropriate for individual evaluation. Nevertheless, due to its simplicity, it has come to be widely used for preliminary diagnoses. [1] [23:54] schestowitz [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Body_mass_index#History [23:54] schestowitz reply [23:54] schestowitz [23:54] schestowitz skissane 4 days ago [] [23:54] -TechrightsBN/#boycottnovell-en.wikipedia.org | Body mass index - Wikipedia [23:54] schestowitz > People who claim to have "moderate OCD" are just people who like things being tidy [23:54] schestowitz Some people are actually diagnosed with "moderate OCD" though. Some psychiatrists like to use descriptors like "mild" or "moderate" or "severe" when they make a diagnosis. The DSM-5 doesn't include those terms as specifiers, but that doesn't stop some clinicians from using them anyway. (Clinicians vary widely in how strictly they adhere to the DSM-5.) [23:54] schestowitz Also, while the DSM-5 doesn't include the concept of "mild"/"moderate"/"severe" OCD, some rating scales used clinically in diagnosing OCD do include such a distinction. Y-BOCS (Yale-Brown Obsessive Compulsive Scale) scores are divided into four ranges subclinical, mild, moderate, severe, extreme. A person with an OCD diagnosis who scores in the moderate range of the Y-BOCS will quite possibly be told they have "moderate OCD". [23:54] schestowitz The DSM-5 does include three specifiers of level of insight for OCD: "good or fair insight" ("The individual recognizes that obsessive-compulsive disorder beliefs are definitely or probably not true or that they may or may not be true"), "poor insight" ("The individual thinks obsessive-compulsive disorder beliefs are probably true"), "absent insight/delusional beliefs" ("The individual is completely convinced that obsessive- [23:54] schestowitz compulsive disorder beliefs are true"). It is an oversimplification to equate that to "mild"/"moderate"/"severe", but some people will do it anyway. [23:54] schestowitz Clinicians need to convey to patients (and their family members and others) the severity of the individual's condition in terms which lay people will readily understand. Terms such as "mild","moderate","severe", despite their limitations, meet that need. [23:54] schestowitz > People really need to stop saying they have OCD unless they've been diagnosed by a professional. [23:54] schestowitz Self-diagnosis is always a dangerous thing, but I think it includes a big spectrum of behaviours, from "I saw a TV show once about X and now I think I've got it" through to "I've read the DSM-5 and dozens of books and papers on X and I think I've got it". In both cases, the person could well be wrong, but arguably they have a significantly greater chance of being right in the second case than in the first. (And a lot of the time [23:54] schestowitz when people who engage in self-diagnosis get it wrong, they actually do end up diagnosed with something, just not the thing they expected.) [23:54] schestowitz Speaking somewhat personally I've listened to school teachers and psychologists tell me all these things our son does which are "symptoms of autism" and I'm sitting there the whole time thinking to myself "what's 'autistic' about that, I did that too as a child, I even still do that as an adult?" That's not saying that I do or don't have ASD I've never sought a formal assessment of it for myself, maybe one day I shall, maybe [23:54] schestowitz I never will but my suspicions that I might have ASD probably have somewhat more weight to them than "oh I saw a TV show about it once and now I think I have it". [23:54] schestowitz reply [23:54] schestowitz [23:54] schestowitz yetihehe 4 days ago [] [23:54] schestowitz > but moderate autism makes it incredibly hard to act in daily life in the same way moderate OCD does. [23:54] schestowitz It's hard to live with moderate asperger syndrome, because you typically look and act normal, but are actually positioned in uncanny valley of behaviour. You try to act normally, but your responses are off enough to be mistranslated by others. You are expected to behave normally but you are missing those expectations. People who are visibly disadvantaged have lower expectations on them from the start. [23:54] schestowitz reply [23:54] schestowitz [23:54] schestowitz bryanrasmussen 4 days ago [] [23:54] schestowitz I have a hard time understanding if your mention of the co-worker was supposed to be an example of someone who misused autism or not? [23:54] schestowitz >it's not something you use "neurodivergent" with seriously. [23:54] schestowitz what do you use neurodivergent with seriously. I would think not being able to read a room is a big problem? [23:54] schestowitz >Like generally there's a lot of disability chic or identity these days; but moderate autism makes it incredibly hard to act in daily life in the same way moderate OCD does. [23:54] schestowitz is it incredibly hard to act in daily life with moderate autism, or is having moderate autism and complaining about its difficulties an example of disability chic or identity? It seems like you want to say it is the latter, but phrasing like 'incredibly hard' make it seem like you couldn't possible mean that. [23:54] schestowitz reply [23:54] schestowitz [23:54] schestowitz Noos 4 days ago [] [23:54] schestowitz No, it wasn't a coworker; it was a customer's adult child they left with us now and then more or less to babysit. He didn't misuse it at all; the idea of "neurodivergence" would be impossible for him to get. It was more like "rain man" without any of the mythical savantness; i say moderate because he wouldn't need a full time caregiver and could probably act on his own, but worrying about "reading a room" was impossible for him; it [23:54] schestowitz never entered his mind. [23:55] schestowitz Having moderate forms of autism is incredibly hard, yes. Severe forms you would need a caregiver and medication for the rest of your life. It isn't just socially awkward behavior or insensitivity, and there's a temptation to medicalize or self-diagnose behavior that way. [23:55] schestowitz Disability chic is medicalizing things that more or less are normal behavior. I feel like with autism people try to make an identity or medicalize some normal traits. I keep using OCD, mostly because I do worry I suffer from it. I am aware of the irony, but i do this more because i suffered from signficant abnormal traits like checking compulsions; hitting a pothole and immediately being afraid i ran someone over, etc. Worrying that [23:55] schestowitz you didn't lock a door despite tugging on the doorknob 6 times before you left.I have it light because I don't need drugs to manage it and I'm able to function somewhat in life (though as an adult i worry how much of who I am was because of it) [23:55] schestowitz There really isn't overlap with anything else; like people misuse OCD to mean "neat freak" or forgetful or what have you. Autism though people seem to have some of that; I mean, my customer's son has to be told to not get in people's spaces while many non autistic people may stand too close. It's harder to untangle. [23:55] schestowitz reply [23:55] schestowitz [23:55] schestowitz eyelidlessness 3 days ago [] [23:55] schestowitz I mean this in the kindest way possible. I read more closely through this thread, and Im glad I did. [23:55] schestowitz First, I relate to your feelings of minimizing your own experiences, and your impulse to minimize others. Thats not just how I felt before I was ready to get help, its something so ingrained in me that its a repetitive conversation with my family and loved ones since I have. [23:55] schestowitz Second and more importantly, if you do have those symptoms I sincerely hope youll consider talking to a professional. The worst thing that happens is youll waste a couple hours. The next worst thing that can happen is you might make some sense of why your brain is the way it is, and it might lead to some peace. Its all up from there. [23:55] schestowitz reply [23:55] schestowitz [23:55] schestowitz eyelidlessness 3 days ago [] [23:55] schestowitz Full disclosure: Im not yet diagnosed ASD, but I have pretty high confidence I will be. The only reason I havent pursued it sooner is that the point I acknowledged not just the possibility but the importance of knowing was around the same point I was no longer able to continue at my last job, which was six months ago. So I dont currently have the resources (insurance) to look further. [23:55] schestowitz That said, while Im not an expert on the topic, some of the way you responded is right in line with what Ive seen people with diagnoses express as harmful. Im sure you mean well, but ASD presents in a lot of ways. Many which are not nearly so debilitating as what you describe, or more to the point, not debilitating in the same ways. The fact that its such a common misconception that it is so debilitating across the board [23:55] schestowitz is stigmatic. [23:55] schestowitz I havent experienced this disability chic, what Ive seen is the opposite: people afraid to find out because it may be socially limiting beyond their natural limits. [23:55] schestowitz Its possible that what you see here is a reflection of high incidence of what you call high function but nevertheless also a high incidence of ASD in tech communities. [23:55] schestowitz I hope youll consider the possibility. I hope youll also consider that it took me a full day to work up the nerve to address your response, and honestly its such a sensitive subject that Im probably going to have to stop looking at my phone for the night because I cant bear whatever potential negative reaction might be coming. But I couldnt bear leaving it unanswered even more. [23:55] schestowitz reply [23:55] schestowitz [23:55] schestowitz afiori 3 days ago [] [23:55] schestowitz Like many many old people my late grandmother would very often complain about her bad heart, she had a perfectly healthy heart that would have never gave her any problem, she only stopped complaining about her heart once other health issue started to appear. [23:55] schestowitz My suspicion is that the reason she was often complaining about her heart was that she in part knew that there was no need to be worried about it. [23:55] schestowitz Openly choosing to recognize the existence of a dragon in your life require either bravery, desperation, or finding a costume to put your cat. [23:55] schestowitz I am not specifically replying to you, I was just stimulated by the topic, but I find it ironic that given a debilitating condition being outspoken about it could maean being of two very different end of a spectrum of experiences. [23:55] schestowitz reply [23:55] schestowitz [23:55] schestowitz skissane 4 days ago [] [23:55] schestowitz > Like generally there's a lot of disability chic or identity these days; but moderate autism makes it incredibly hard to act in daily life in the same way moderate OCD does. [23:55] schestowitz Are you familiar with the concept of broad autism phenotype (BAP)? A person who has more autistic traits than the average person, but not enough traits (or are not sufficiently impaired by those traits) for an ASD diagnosis, has BAP. Someone who thinks theyor someone elsehas ASD in the absence of a formal diagnosisif they are wrong about the person having ASD, they probably are actually picking up on the person's BAP traits [23:55] schestowitz And how does the experience of BAP and ASD differ? Well, they are just different positions on a continuumpeople with BAP have similar experiences to people with ASD, albeit with less intensity and/or less impairment. And the line between them is unclear and subjective, different clinicians draw it in different placeswhether you end up with the diagnosis can depend on factors that have nothing to do with you personally, such as [23:55] schestowitz the diagnostic practices and clinical culture of the clinicians you end up seeing. (And the line is moving a lot of people diagnosed with ASD today would not have received that diagnosis if they'd presented with the same symptoms 20 or 30 years ago.) [23:55] schestowitz Stressful environments often exacerbate people's autistic traits and interfere with their own strategies for managing them. A series of stressful life events can lead a person to a situation in which they end up being diagnosed, whereas if their life had taken a more leisurely turn they might never have been diagnosed even if their innate traits are exactly the same in the two scenarios. One of the key criteria for diagnosing [23:55] schestowitz ASD (criterion D) is clinically significant dysfunction, and dysfunction is highly environmentally determined (unsupportive environments result in far more dysfunction than supportive ones given the same underlying condition) [23:55] schestowitz > If it's significant enough, it's not just someone being brisk or unempathetic in the same way OCD doesn't mean being a neat freak. [23:55] schestowitz BAP is subclinical ASD. Subclinical OCD is also a subject of study, although unlike BAP it doesn't have a distinctive name. A lot of "neat freak" people may actually have subclinical OCD. And subclinical OCD and clinical OCD are on a continuum with each other, with a subjective and varying dividing line between them, just as subclinical and clinical ASD are. [23:55] schestowitz https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=26537443 [23:55] -TechrightsBN/#boycottnovell-news.ycombinator.com | > Just wondering what the source is for Stallman being autistic? I see people sa... | Hacker News [23:55] schestowitz https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=26451328 [23:55] -TechrightsBN/#boycottnovell-news.ycombinator.com | > This article fills a gap in my vocabulary for someone who shares some traits a... | Hacker News [23:55] schestowitz https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=26312895 [23:55] -TechrightsBN/#boycottnovell-news.ycombinator.com | I don't know if many people here would have ever heard about the concept of Broa... | Hacker News [23:56] schestowitz reply [23:56] schestowitz [23:56] schestowitz Noos 4 days ago [] [23:56] schestowitz I'm not sure you can reduce it to traits in the method you mean. I think mostly it severity. I do think stress can have something to do with it. [23:56] schestowitz I mean, there is no "neat freak" trait; that's something people who don't have OCD use because they think that's part of what it is. It's more intrusive thoughts about contamination, and there isn't a spectrum of those traits. Like you can't really "train" yourself to not be contaminated, in the way autism people talk about training to deal with social conditions. Trying to argue against it reinforces the behavior. It happens [23:56] schestowitz despite you knowing its totally irrational [23:56] schestowitz I think I get BAP if you mean "the condition isn't severe enough to significantly impair your life," but I can see similarities between my checking behavior and people suffering the same but worse; I'm just fortunate enough that it doens't occur frequently. The talk about autism though is a different kind of talk; the moderate or severe sufferers are different. [23:56] schestowitz Like the person I mention never got better or could use coping stuff; he would if anything just end up unable to talk possibly because he was medicated sometimes. I understand I'm not a clinician, but there's a lot of "spectrum" behavior in things now; you have gender spectrums, sexual spectrums (asexual, demisexual, sapiosexual), and I'm not sure the concepts aren't just medicalizing normal variation or individual temperament. I [23:56] schestowitz wish i could be doing this for me, if anything. [23:56] schestowitz reply [23:56] schestowitz [23:56] schestowitz skissane 4 days ago [] [23:56] schestowitz > It's more intrusive thoughts about contamination, and there isn't a spectrum of those traits. [23:56] schestowitz There is a continuum of intrusive thoughts the continuum of frequency and intensity of those thoughts, the continuum of how easy it is to move on from them, etc. And a single individual can move back and forward along that continuum over time, in response to life events, development/maturity/ageing, and other factors. We say they have OCD if (a) they have enough frequency/intensity/etc of those intrusive thoughts, (b) the [23:56] schestowitz intrusive thoughts are sufficiently impairing in their everyday life, (c) there isn't some other disorder which better explains those intrusive thoughts. We draw a line on the continuum, and say this side is "OCD" (or maybe some other disorder), and the other side isn't, but that line is inevitably a subjective clinical judgement call [23:56] schestowitz > The talk about autism though is a different kind of talk; the moderate or severe sufferers are different. [23:56] schestowitz You mention "moderate" and "severe" what about "mild ASD"? I guess what used to be called Aspergers syndrome? [23:56] schestowitz > Like the person I mention never got better or could use coping stuff [23:56] schestowitz You can't draw a lot of conclusions from a single person. You can't say that people with milder, less noticeable symptoms don't exist. [23:56] schestowitz reply [23:56] schestowitz [23:56] schestowitz Aloha 4 days ago [] [23:56] schestowitz Agreed. [23:56] schestowitz I've spent a lifetime learning a rulebook by trial and error that everyone else just seems to know. [23:56] schestowitz It's absolutely maddening then the rules suddenly change for no discernible reason, often with little warning and grave consequences with no second chances for screwing it up. [23:56] schestowitz reply [23:56] schestowitz [23:56] schestowitz eyelidlessness 3 days ago [] [23:56] schestowitz Im sorry I didnt see this sooner. Just want to say Ive felt this, most of my life. I wish I had more to offer than this but: youre not alone, and I hope knowing that will be as helpful to you as its been to me. [23:56] schestowitz reply [23:56] schestowitz [23:56] schestowitz Aloha 2 days ago [] [23:56] schestowitz Thank You! This whole post, and another comment I made on this thread was super affirming, its nice to know I'm not alone. [23:56] schestowitz It's why what people call 'cancel culture' scares the snot out of me, I'm deathly afraid I'm gonna say or do the wrong thing, and not really have a way to respond to it, and pay some sort of heavy toll. I'm okay with free speech having consequences (its the only way to ensure we can actually have speech mostly free of government regulation). I just wish those consequences were not applied for things deemed ex post facto (often by [23:56] schestowitz decades) to be violations of social norms. [23:56] schestowitz But there is a certain amount of mental exhaustion from having to filter everything I say outside of some very very narrow circles, lest I say something that could be deemed in the future to be 'problematic'. [23:56] schestowitz The larger issue I see, is our current focus on peoples actions in the past is it leaves no room for personal growth or to change views, it if anything hardens people views and perspectives - if someone gets no credit for getting better about something (like use of pronouns, or whatever else), there is no incentive to improve. [23:56] schestowitz reply [23:56] schestowitz [23:56] schestowitz spiritplumber 4 days ago [] [23:57] schestowitz "Does wearing this thing make me look fat?" [23:57] schestowitz "A bit. If your goal is to look thinner I'd try that other thing instead." [23:57] schestowitz Is this a neurotypical person being a butt, or an autistic person trying to be helpful? [23:57] schestowitz Answer: yes. [23:57] schestowitz reply [23:57] schestowitz [23:57] schestowitz Ekaros 4 days ago [] [23:57] schestowitz Why is the person answering here considered to be the butt and not the person setting up the trap? Generally I believe it is know that there is no good answers to this question. So maybe we should assign blame on person asking it? That is if they don't really want the honest answer. [23:57] schestowitz reply [23:57] schestowitz [23:57] schestowitz u801e 4 days ago [] [23:57] schestowitz That's good way to put it. A more obvious trap question would be "have you stopped beating your wife?" [23:57] schestowitz reply [23:57] schestowitz [23:57] schestowitz orthoxerox 4 days ago [] [23:57] schestowitz It could be a neurotypical Dutch being themselves. Societal norms vary from culture to culture, even within what we call the western world. [23:57] schestowitz reply [23:57] schestowitz [23:57] schestowitz bryanrasmussen 4 days ago [] [23:57] schestowitz also a Dane I think, frankly it seemed polite. [23:57] schestowitz reply [23:57] schestowitz [23:57] schestowitz wccrawford 4 days ago [] [23:57] schestowitz American here. I can recognize that it's considered rude here to admit someone is overweight, even if they ask. [23:57] schestowitz So I would never answer this question to someone who didn't love me. And even then, they get offended, even though they ask. [23:57] schestowitz Instead, my answer is, "Nope, not gonna answer that." And then they get mad anyhow. [23:57] schestowitz So the comment above about the "trap" is correct. That person started the rudeness, but they won't take the heat for it. [23:57] schestowitz reply [23:57] schestowitz [23:57] schestowitz ejolto 4 days ago [] [23:57] schestowitz Also Scandinavian and I agree with you. Also Americans lying about these things are often seen as being fake and thus rude. [23:57] schestowitz reply [23:57] schestowitz [23:57] schestowitz enriquto 4 days ago [] [23:57] schestowitz As a southern European, I concur that US-ian fake politeness is quite disturbing. [23:57] schestowitz reply [23:57] schestowitz [23:57] schestowitz ethbr0 4 days ago [] [23:57] schestowitz As a southern American, I'd chalk a lot of it up to our multiculturalism. There are different parts within the US, where you'd get different answers to that question, almost always! [23:57] schestowitz But I'd say suggestion and (to use the southern term) social grace is one of the most nuanced and culture-heavy forms of communication. In that it assumes a lot of shared culture between you and the other party. [23:58] schestowitz As least down here, with > stranger, < intimate partner, you'd get a "No" in all cases, but the words attached to the no would also differ almost 100% of the time in the "No, but..." case. [23:58] schestowitz And I imagine most of those cues completely disappear cross-culturally. [23:58] schestowitz reply [23:58] schestowitz [23:58] schestowitz enriquto 4 days ago [] [23:58] schestowitz > most of those cues completely disappear cross-culturally. [23:58] schestowitz If they simply disappeared, it would be alright. The problem is when they have the exact opposite meaning. [23:58] schestowitz One example is US-ian unnaturally white teeth, that supposedly look OK there, but are somewhat creepy in the rest of the world. I mean, human teeth are not supposed to be white, but a range of very light ivory tones. [23:58] schestowitz reply [23:58] schestowitz [23:58] schestowitz ethbr0 4 days ago [] [23:58] schestowitz > The problem is when they have the exact opposite meaning [23:58] schestowitz Granted! But also when they have no meaning, or are just... odd (e.g. "That's weird, how do they want me to respond to that reply they just made?") [23:58] schestowitz White teeth are totally creepy here too. If you ask any US dentist, they'll tell you to match eye white (varies from individual to individual) to look natural. [23:58] schestowitz But, then, there's a few "beautiful people" states where norms are so out of whack they don't realize how weird it is. [23:58] schestowitz reply [23:58] schestowitz [23:58] schestowitz dgellow 4 days ago [] [23:58] schestowitz I'm Swiss (from a French-speaking canton), that seems polite to me too. [23:58] schestowitz reply [23:58] schestowitz [23:58] schestowitz the-dude 4 days ago [] [23:58] schestowitz Could you please leave us out of this? [23:58] schestowitz reply [23:58] schestowitz [23:58] schestowitz caddemon 4 days ago [] [23:58] schestowitz I think there's another factor here not mentioned by other commenters - it is possible to be both neurodivergent and an ass, but it can often be a lot easier to discover that a neurodivergent person is an ass. Neurotypical assholes will usually be pretty good at controlling their public image. [23:58] schestowitz So even if we suppose that cancel culture somehow has 0 false positives (which I highly doubt), it's likely that many more neurodivergent assholes will be "caught" than neurotypical ones. Which feels functionally very similar to profiling IMO, and practically means we are probably not catching the more "dangerous" assholes. Because it's a lot easier to ignore an asshole view if you're aware of it. [23:58] schestowitz reply [23:58] schestowitz [23:58] schestowitz brigandish 4 days ago [] [23:58] schestowitz By separating intention and action. Everyone can be perceived as thoughtless or mean or an arse by anyone else for any action, but we also know from experience when we've been the "baddy" that we may have had good intentions, even the best. [23:58] schestowitz I'm sure you also know of times - I know I do for myself - of times you've knowingly and purposively been an arse. [23:58] schestowitz There's the biggest difference. [23:58] schestowitz reply [23:58] schestowitz [23:58] schestowitz WindyLakeReturn 2 days ago [] [23:58] schestowitz Intent and justification. [23:58] schestowitz Intent is the easier one to understand. Neurodivergent often don't act with the same intent that someone being an asshole does. Two people tell you that you shouldn't be eating that cookie. One is intending to be mean an to hurt you. The other cares about you and means the message in the best interest of your health, not realizing it will hurt. [23:58] schestowitz With time and some prompting they can be led to understand how the message would be interpreted and realize it is hurt and stop, but it happens much slower and is often too little too late. [23:59] schestowitz Justification is the harder to understand or empathize with possibility. Due to the previous issue impacting every area of life, often resulting in a significant decrease in quality of life and a significant increase in emotional pain, some will lower the extent they empathize with others. It is harder to explain because people think of their own times being hurt by others and think how they had the option to just do better than was [23:59] schestowitz done to them and rise above, not conceptualizing what qualitative differences occur when a pain goes from a short term event to a life long occurrence. [23:59] schestowitz One further problem is that justification is only sometimes deemed appropriate by society. The differences in what are deemed appropriate differ strongly enough I'm hesitant to list examples because many will consider just making the comparison as a very asshole move. I am not at all clear if this consideration is in good faith or not. [23:59] schestowitz reply [23:59] schestowitz [23:59] schestowitz everdrive 4 days ago [] [23:59] schestowitz Without being too trite: intent. [23:59] schestowitz Sometimes people think I'm being awkward or uncomfortable, but mostly I'm tripping over myself trying (and failing) to find the right things to say. People expect that you can read them, and read the situation in real time. I can't (although usually I can gather how it's all gone wrong once the moment has passed -- a double-edged sword.) [23:59] schestowitz reply [23:59] schestowitz [23:59] schestowitz skissane 4 days ago [] [23:59] schestowitz What counts as "neurodivergent"? Just ASD? What about other psychiatric diagnoses? [23:59] schestowitz A lot of "non-autistic assholes" may have other diagnosable conditions, for example narcissistic personality disorder (NPD) or antisocial personality disorder (ASPD). Are NPD or ASPD "neurodiverse" or "neurodivergent"? They are probably partially genetic, just as ASD is probably partially genetic. [23:59] schestowitz reply [23:59] schestowitz [23:59] schestowitz lenkite 4 days ago [] [23:59] schestowitz Frankly, just about everyone would be "neurodivergent" in a different culture. [23:59] schestowitz reply [23:59] schestowitz [23:59] schestowitz caddemon 4 days ago [] [23:59] schestowitz To some extent yes, but have you ever interacted with RMS? His behavior goes way beyond the typical "coder with Asperger's" borderline cases you're thinking of. [23:59] schestowitz reply [23:59] schestowitz [23:59] schestowitz lenkite 3 days ago [] [23:59] schestowitz Only after one of his talks on software, not in a personal capacity. I didn't observe anything peculiar about his behaviour - except for the deep commitment to free software. But this was nearly a decade ago... [23:59] schestowitz reply [23:59] schestowitz [23:59] schestowitz eyelidlessness 4 days ago [] [23:59] schestowitz Other commonly classified neurodivergent diagnoses are ADHD and OCD (which along with ASD commonly overlap). They dont have much overlap with personality disorders (which do have a lot of overlap among that category). [23:59] schestowitz reply [23:59] schestowitz [23:59] schestowitz skissane 4 days ago [] [23:59] schestowitz > Other commonly classified neurodivergent diagnoses are ADHD and OCD (which along with ASD commonly overlap) [23:59] schestowitz What makes those diagnoses "neurodivergent" and the others not? Why aren't other diagnoses "neurodivergent" too? How exactly do we define "neurodivergent"? (And why is that the right definition to use?) [23:59] schestowitz > They dont have much overlap with personality disorders (which do have a lot of overlap among that category). [23:59] schestowitz There is a lot of overlap between the disruptive behaviour disorders (DBDs) oppositional defiant disorder (ODD) and conduct disorder (CD) and ADHD; so much so that ADHD is sometimes considered a DBD along with ODD and CD. And there is a clear connection between CD in children and adolescents and ASPD in adults indeed, a child or adolescent with CD can follow one of two trajectories, either their conduct problems resolve [23:59] schestowitz with maturity and they become law-abiding pro-social adults, or else the child/adolescent diagnosis of CD evolves into the adult diagnosis of ASPD. So there is definitely a connection between ASPD and ADHD. A child with ADHD (even without comorbid CD) has an increased risk of developing ASPD as an adult https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/24284138/ [23:59] -TechrightsBN/#boycottnovell-pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov | The Association Between ADHD and Antisocial Personality Disorder (ASPD): A Review - PubMed [23:59] schestowitz Some researchers consider ASPD to be a neurodevelopmental disorder https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/29401045/ which is the same category that ASD and ADHD (and sometimes also OCD) are put in. [23:59] -TechrightsBN/#boycottnovell-pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov | Antisocial Personality as a Neurodevelopmental Disorder - PubMed [23:59] schestowitz There is also a lot of overlap between ADHD and BPD (Borderline personality disorder) https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4739390/ [23:59] schestowitz There's also overlap between ASD and BPD https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5590952/ [23:59] -TechrightsBN/#boycottnovell-www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov | Common ground in Attention Deficit Hyperactivity Disorder (ADHD) and Borderline Personality Disorder (BPD)review of recent findings