Techrights logo

IRC: #techbytes @ Techrights IRC Network: Saturday, April 01, 2023

(ℹ) Join us now at the IRC channel | ䷉ Find the plain text version at this address (HTTP) or in Gemini (how to use Gemini) with a full GemText version.

*schestowitz-TR has quit (Ping timeout: 2m30s)Apr 01 03:18
*schestowitz-TR has quit (Ping timeout: 120 seconds)Apr 01 03:19
*libertybox has quit (Ping timeout: 2m30s)Apr 01 03:24
*libertybox__ has quit (Ping timeout: 2m30s)Apr 01 03:24
*libertybox (~schestowitz_log@rbnv8qskr8rgw.irc) has joined #techbytesApr 01 03:31
*libertybox__ (~schestowitz_log@rbnv8qskr8rgw.irc) has joined #techbytesApr 01 03:31
*schestowitz-TR (~acer-box@freenode/user/schestowitz) has joined #techbytesApr 01 03:32
*roy (~quassel@rbnv8qskr8rgw.irc) has joined #techbytesApr 01 03:32
*roy_ (~quassel@rbnv8qskr8rgw.irc) has joined #techbytesApr 01 03:32
*Techrights-sec (~quassel@freenode-k32f7k.71tb.6ao7.hij1op.IP) has joined #techbytesApr 01 03:32
*libertybox_ has quit (Ping timeout: 2m30s)Apr 01 03:33
*libertybox_ (~schestowitz_log@rbnv8qskr8rgw.irc) has joined #techbytesApr 01 03:33
*Techrights-sec2 (~quassel@freenode-k32f7k.71tb.6ao7.hij1op.IP) has joined #techbytesApr 01 03:33
*Techrights-sec2 has quit (OperServ (Session limit exceeded))Apr 01 03:33
*Techrights-sec2 has quit (Ping timeout: 2m30s)Apr 01 03:33
*Techrights-sec2 (~quassel@freenode-k32f7k.71tb.6ao7.hij1op.IP) has joined #techbytesApr 01 03:33
*Techrights-sec2 has quit (OperServ (Session limit exceeded))Apr 01 03:33
*schestowitz-TR (~acer-box@rbnv8qskr8rgw.irc) has joined #techbytesApr 01 03:33
*Techrights-sec has quit (Ping timeout: 2m30s)Apr 01 03:33
*Techrights-sec2 (~quassel@freenode-k32f7k.71tb.6ao7.hij1op.IP) has joined #techbytesApr 01 03:33
*Techrights-sec2 has quit (OperServ (Session limit exceeded))Apr 01 03:33
*Techrights-sec2 (~quassel@freenode-k32f7k.71tb.6ao7.hij1op.IP) has joined #techbytesApr 01 03:33
*Techrights-sec2 has quit (OperServ (Session limit exceeded))Apr 01 03:33
*Techrights-sec2 (~quassel@freenode-k32f7k.71tb.6ao7.hij1op.IP) has joined #techbytesApr 01 03:33
*Techrights-sec2 has quit (OperServ (Session limit exceeded))Apr 01 03:33
*Techrights-sec2 (~quassel@freenode-k32f7k.71tb.6ao7.hij1op.IP) has joined #techbytesApr 01 03:34
*Techrights-sec2 has quit (Z-lined)Apr 01 03:34
*schestowitz-TR has quit (Z-lined)Apr 01 03:34
*311C48JZQ has quit (Z-lined)Apr 01 03:34
*Disconnected (Remote host closed socket).Apr 01 03:34
*Now talking on #techbytesApr 01 04:04
*schestowitz-TR (~acer-box@freenode/user/schestowitz) has joined #techbytesApr 01 04:04
*schestowitz-TR has quit (Ping timeout: 2m30s)Apr 01 04:27
*schestowitz-TR has quit (Ping timeout: 120 seconds)Apr 01 04:28
*libertybox__ has quit (Ping timeout: 2m30s)Apr 01 04:29
*libertybox__ (~schestowitz_log@rbnv8qskr8rgw.irc) has joined #techbytesApr 01 04:31
*schestowitz-TR (~acer-box@freenode/user/schestowitz) has joined #techbytesApr 01 04:31
*libertybox_ has quit (Ping timeout: 2m30s)Apr 01 04:32
*libertybox has quit (Ping timeout: 2m30s)Apr 01 04:32
*libertybox (~schestowitz_log@rbnv8qskr8rgw.irc) has joined #techbytesApr 01 04:32
*libertybox_ (~schestowitz_log@rbnv8qskr8rgw.irc) has joined #techbytesApr 01 04:32
*Techrights-sec (~quassel@rbnv8qskr8rgw.irc) has joined #techbytesApr 01 04:32
*Techrights-sec2 (~quassel@rbnv8qskr8rgw.irc) has joined #techbytesApr 01 04:32
*Techrights-sec (~quassel@freenode-ge6c51.71tb.6ao7.hij1op.IP) has joined #techbytesApr 01 04:32
*Techrights-sec2 (~quassel@freenode-ge6c51.71tb.6ao7.hij1op.IP) has joined #techbytesApr 01 04:32
*roy_ has quit (Ping timeout: 2m30s)Apr 01 04:33
*roy has quit (Ping timeout: 2m30s)Apr 01 04:33
*schestowitz-TR (~acer-box@rbnv8qskr8rgw.irc) has joined #techbytesApr 01 04:33
*GNUmoon2 has quit (Ping timeout: 2m30s)Apr 01 07:53
*GNUmoon2 (~GNUmoon@6r9fix5u5g9xa.irc) has joined #techbytesApr 01 08:00
schestowitz[TR]    <li>Apr 01 12:24
schestowitz[TR]                                    <h5><a href="https://www.spiegel.de/international/world/the-vulkan-files-a-look-inside-putin-s-secret-plans-for-cyber-warfare-a-4324e76f-cb20-4312-96c8-1101c5655236#ref=rss">A Look Inside Putin's Secret Plans for Cyber-Warfare</a> [iophk: Windows TCO]</h5>Apr 01 12:24
schestowitz[TR]                                    <blockquote>Apr 01 12:24
schestowitz[TR]                                        <p>Those wishing to go inside for a closer look at the frequently darkened offices full of computers, servers and other high-tech electronic equipment, must pass through security doors and a phalanx of cameras. After all, the building is home to programmers and hackers with a sinister mission: sowing chaos and causing destruction.</p>Apr 01 12:24
schestowitz[TR]                                    </blockquote>Apr 01 12:24
schestowitz[TR]                                </li>Apr 01 12:24
schestowitz[TR]                                Apr 01 12:24
-TechBytesBot/#techbytes-www.spiegel.de | The "Vulkan Files": A Look Inside Putin's Secret Plans for Cyber-Warfare - DER SPIEGELApr 01 12:24
*psydroid2 (~psydroid@u8ftxtfux23wk.irc) has joined #techbytesApr 01 12:34
schestowitz[TR]  <li>Apr 01 12:44
schestowitz[TR]                            <h5><a href="https://blog.powerdns.com/2023/03/30/powerdns-dnsdist-1-8-0-released/">PowerDNS DNSdist 1.8.0 Released</a></h5>Apr 01 12:44
schestowitz[TR]                            <blockquote>Apr 01 12:44
schestowitz[TR]                                <p>Major improvements include reduced memory and CPU consumption for the use case of running dnsdist on devices with few resources, OpenWrt integration, options for faster TLS, and many other improvements. For a summary of the changes since 1.7.3, please have a look at the announcement of the first release candidate.</p>Apr 01 12:44
schestowitz[TR]                            </blockquote>Apr 01 12:44
schestowitz[TR]                        </li>Apr 01 12:44
schestowitz[TR]                        Apr 01 12:44
-TechBytesBot/#techbytes-blog.powerdns.com | PowerDNS DNSdist 1.8.0 Released | PowerDNS BlogApr 01 12:44
schestowitz[TR]  <li>Apr 01 12:47
schestowitz[TR]                                    <h5><a href="https://blog.arduino.cc/2023/03/31/old-rc-transmitter-becomes-new-midi-controller/">Old RC transmitter becomes new MIDI controller</a></h5>Apr 01 12:47
schestowitz[TR]                                    <blockquote>Apr 01 12:47
schestowitz[TR]                                        <p>An Arduino board monitors all of the potentiometers via multiplexers. It runs a MIDI controller library, so it can send MIDI messages to a computer connected through a USB cable. As far as the computer is concerned, the connected device is just a standard MIDI controller. That means that it will work with any MIDI software and HYPRREAL only had to configure the different controls within thaApr 01 12:47
schestowitz[TR]t software. The result is a useful MIDI controller in a very attractive retro package.</p>Apr 01 12:47
schestowitz[TR]                                    </blockquote>Apr 01 12:47
schestowitz[TR]                                </li>Apr 01 12:47
schestowitz[TR]                                Apr 01 12:47
-TechBytesBot/#techbytes-blog.arduino.cc | Old RC transmitter becomes new MIDI controller | Arduino BlogApr 01 12:47
*psydroid2 has quit (connection closed)Apr 01 14:50
*psydroid2 (~psydroid@u8ftxtfux23wk.irc) has joined #techbytesApr 01 14:54
schestowitz[TR]Dear Mr Thomas, strictly speaking, I think that yo... ☞ http://ipkitten.blogspot.com/2023/03/g-221-did-invention-as-originally.html?showComment=1680271503694#c3437616400659334542Apr 01 15:36
schestowitz[TR]<li><h5><a href="http://ipkitten.blogspot.com/2023/03/g-221-did-invention-as-originally.html?showComment=1680271503694#c3437616400659334542">Dear Mr Thomas, strictly speaking, I think that yo...</a></h5><blockquote>Dear Mr Thomas, strictly speaking, I think that your response could be viewed as an example of whataboutism.<br />https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Whataboutism<br /><br />Nevertheless, you pose a fair counter-question. I shaApr 01 15:36
schestowitz[TR]ll therefore do my best to provide an answer.<br /><br />In essence, it seems to me that what is at stake are the following questions.<br />1. Does amendment of a claim to incorporate a feature (D) previously presented as being optional change the scope of protection afforded by those claims?<br />2. If, after such an amendment to the claims, the description is not &quot;adapted&quot; accordingly, is it possible that a national courApr 01 15:36
schestowitz[TR]t would interpret the claims so as to afford protection for embodiments (or equivalents) that do <b>not</b> incorporate feature D?<br /><br />My answer to <b>both</b> questions is: it depends upon the facts of the case.<br /><br />Regarding question 1, there will be many cases where it is easy to conclude that the answer is &quot;yes&quot;. However, there will be others where the answer can only be determined after careful consideraApr 01 15:36
schestowitz[TR]tion of how the (amended and unamended) claim language should be interpreted. For example, there may be cases where the unamended claim language is interpreted as <i>inherently</i> incorporating feature D. Alternatively, there may be cases where embodiments excluding feature D represent &quot;immaterial variants&quot; of the invention according to a strict, literal interpretation of the claims. Each case needs to be decided on its oApr 01 15:36
schestowitz[TR]wn merits, considering all of the relevant facts.<br /><br />In the light of the above explanation, I think you will understand why the answer to question 2, is also &quot;It depends&quot;. However, I will add the following.<br /><br />Firstly, Article 69 EPC makes it clear that the extent of the protection conferred <b>shall be determined by the claims</b>. By way of contrast, that Article indicates that the description and drawingApr 01 15:36
schestowitz[TR]s shall (only) be used to <b>interpret the claims</b>.<br /><br />This means that the description only has secondary importance with regard to determining the scope of protection. There is nothing in Article 69 EPC or its Protocol that <b>requires</b> a national court to interpret the claims by ignoring (the meaning of) their wording and determining the scope of protection solely by reference to the &quot;invention&quot; as set out Apr 01 15:36
schestowitz[TR]in the (unamended) description. Indeed, Article 1 of the Protocol states that this is precisely what must a national court must <b>not</b> do.<br /><br />Secondly, despite rather more lenient EPO description adaptation practice being in place for decades, I have yet to see evidence of a national court reaching the &quot;wrong&quot; decision due to an &quot;improper&quot; adaptation of the description enabling an over-broad interpretApr 01 15:36
schestowitz[TR]ation of the claims. Regarding their ability to properly determine the scope of amended claims (regardless of whether the description has been &quot;strictly&quot; adapted to the claims as amended), my confidence in the national courts therefore seems to be justified.<br /><br />So that is my answer. Whether you will find it &quot;compelling and convincing&quot; is doubtful. However, I hope that you will at least agree that it is inApr 01 15:36
schestowitz[TR]ternally consistent, logical and (with regard to national court decisions) at least arguably supported by the evidence.<br /><br />Perhaps you would now care to provide your response to the point that I made in my 29 March comment?Apr 01 15:36
schestowitz[TR] Thank you DXThomas. I apologise for not having the... ☞ http://ipkitten.blogspot.com/2023/03/g-221-did-invention-as-originally.html?showComment=1680270704186#c839596560196828768Apr 01 15:36
schestowitz[TR]<li><h5><a href="http://ipkitten.blogspot.com/2023/03/g-221-did-invention-as-originally.html?showComment=1680270704186#c839596560196828768">Thank you DXThomas. I apologise for not having the...</a></h5><blockquote>Thank you DXThomas. I apologise for not having the time to respond to every one of your excellent points. I will only pick up on the point about criteria for patentability being the same for all technology areas. Here is tApr 01 15:36
schestowitz[TR]he last para of G2/21. Please note that sentence about the technical field influencing the outcome:<br /><br />&quot;The Enlarged Board is aware of the abstractness of some of the aforementioned criteria. However, apart from the fact that the Enlarged Board, in its function assigned to it under Article 112(1) EPC, is not called to decide on a specific case, it is the pertinent circumstances of each case which provide the basis on whApr 01 15:36
schestowitz[TR]ich a board of appeal or other deciding body is required to judge, and the actual outcome may well to some extent be influenced by the technical field of the claimed invention. Irrespective of the actual circumstances of a particular case, the guiding principles set out above should allow the competent board of appeal or other deciding body to take a decision on whether or not post-published evidence may or may not be relied upon inApr 01 15:36
schestowitz[TR] support of an asserted technical effect when assessing whether or not the claimed subject-matter involves an inventive step.&quot;<br /><br />I think those that practice in the pharma area know that they have always had a distinct set of rules at the EPO for patentability. Essentially if you bring a new molecule into the world (perhaps universe) you get a a lot of leniency at the EPO for it being useful for something, and you can uApr 01 15:36
schestowitz[TR]se post-filing data to greatly assist in this. Their distinct 'deal' with the EPO has been called into questions as 'plausibility' has spread across tech areas, and I believe the EB is reassuring them in this decision that the rules have not changed for them. You can still cover billions of compounds with a product claim if you show (for example) 11 of them have an activity in some sort of relevant assay.  That is deemed fair in theApr 01 15:36
schestowitz[TR] pharma field. Thank you again for your response which really is a blog post in itself<br />Apr 01 15:36
schestowitz[TR] Dear Santa, Apr 01 15:36
schestowitz[TR]I do not know on what you base your ... ☞ http://ipkitten.blogspot.com/2023/03/g-221-did-invention-as-originally.html?showComment=1680252643455#c4219201308645910796Apr 01 15:36
schestowitz[TR]<li><h5><a href="http://ipkitten.blogspot.com/2023/03/g-221-did-invention-as-originally.html?showComment=1680252643455#c4219201308645910796">Dear Santa, Apr 01 15:36
schestowitz[TR]I do not know on what you base your ...</a></h5><blockquote>Dear Santa, <br /><br />I do not know on what you base your speculation, but I do not think, like Mr Hagel, that the powers of the EBA will be curtailed in any form by the UPC in matters of validity. That the UPC wants to become the leading court in Europe is manifest. It might become it in matters of infringement, but I have doubts in matters of validity. In matters of valApr 01 15:36
schestowitz[TR]idity, the UPC might simply add a layer of case and I do not think that it will be helpful. <br /><br />Your reference to appeals from the UPC to the CJEU is puzzling. The only possibility foreseen in the UPCA is not to appeal to the CJEU, but to file requests for preliminary rulings when it comes to the interpretation of Union law, cf. Art 21 UPCA. For instance, this is presently done by national courts when it comes to SPC, althouApr 01 15:36
schestowitz[TR]gh there is not even yet a “European SPC”. <br /><br />The EPC is anything but not Union law. The drafters of the UPCA were very careful not to allow the CJEU to deal with substantial patent law. This does however not mean that the CJEU will not attempt to bring in its opinion on substantial patent law when deciding on preliminary rulings from the UPC. Wait and see. <br /><br />That the UPC might adopt a more patentee-friendly aApr 01 15:36
schestowitz[TR]ttitude towards proprietors, like the German Federal Court, is possible. That the boards of appeal of the EPO shall be bound by decisions of the UPC in matters of validity, is nowhere to be found in the UPCA or in the EPC. There is not even an agreement on the exchange of information between the two institutions. That the EPO has an agreement with the UPC is a different matter, as the boards are “independent” from the EPO. By thApr 01 15:36
schestowitz[TR]e way, there is an agreement on exchange of information between the CJEU and the EFTA court. <br /><br />The only possibility for the boards of appeal of the EPO to be bound by decisions of the UPC will only occur should the EBA gives way to political pressure and comes up with decisions like G 3/19 and its “dynamic interpretation”. <br /><br />To assert that case law needs to be technology specific is somehow surprising. I failApr 01 15:36
schestowitz[TR] to see in the EPC legal rules which are specific to different areas of technology. It is the same EPC for all areas of technology. That depending on the technical area, the weight given to the common general concepts might slightly differ is correct, but this is no more than a truism. For instance, that in chemistry, pharmacy and biotech at large, you might have more problems of sufficiency is well-known and not surprising. But theApr 01 15:36
schestowitz[TR] criteria for novelty, added matter and IS are the same as in other technical areas.  <br /><br />As far as procedural aspects are concerned there are however clear developments which show that the boards develop their own “private” procedural case law. See for instance the diverging interpretation of G 1/21, the deletion of claims or grouping of claims. There does not seem one a predictable way on how the discretion is applied<Apr 01 15:36
schestowitz[TR]br /><br />Even in matters of substance, notable differences are emerging. Some boards consider that the claims have always to be interpreted with taking into account the description under Art 69. Other boards consider that recourse to the description shall be limited to exceptional circumstances.  <br /><br />Those different approaches are not really helpful for parties which are always in quest of reliability and predictability. TApr 01 15:36
schestowitz[TR]he boards of appeal are only bound by the EPC and there is no need to codify their freedom of devising case law. That they inform themselves on developments of case at national level is nothing surprising, but they are by no means bound those. Look at the long analysis of national case law in G 2/21. <br />Apr 01 15:36
schestowitz[TR] Thank you Francis Hagel. The UPC is an EU project,... ☞ http://ipkitten.blogspot.com/2023/03/g-221-did-invention-as-originally.html?showComment=1680250819041#c1603118786525139459Apr 01 15:36
schestowitz[TR]<li><h5><a href="http://ipkitten.blogspot.com/2023/03/g-221-did-invention-as-originally.html?showComment=1680250819041#c1603118786525139459">Thank you Francis Hagel. The UPC is an EU project,...</a></h5><blockquote>Thank you Francis Hagel. The UPC is an EU project, and EU projects always keep expanding to encompass more and more of the relevant activity in Europe. However, in this case my guess is that the EB has also noticed that iApr 01 15:36
schestowitz[TR]ts own existence has hampered proper development of the Boards of Appeal as they did not have the confidence to essentially create the equivalent of new law within case law. Maybe even the EB has noticed how the US Federal Circuit was unable to develop case law properly after the Alice, Mayo and Myriad US Supreme Court decisions, i.e. develop new tests as needed, and therefore appreciated that it is possible for a superior court to Apr 01 15:36
schestowitz[TR]prevent the proper and 'full' functioning of a lower appeal court. With a 'possible' threat now looming in the form of a UPC with allegiance to the EU, the EB is taking very late steps in G2/21 to bring the Boards of Appeal up to the required 'independence', and essentially confidence, to cope in the new patent landscape that is emerging.Apr 01 15:36
schestowitz[TR] Dear Proof of the pudding,Apr 01 15:36
schestowitz[TR]I have a simple questi... ☞ http://ipkitten.blogspot.com/2023/03/g-221-did-invention-as-originally.html?showComment=1680247859928#c5732890093011510764Apr 01 15:36
schestowitz[TR]<li><h5><a href="http://ipkitten.blogspot.com/2023/03/g-221-did-invention-as-originally.html?showComment=1680247859928#c5732890093011510764">Dear Proof of the pudding,Apr 01 15:36
schestowitz[TR]I have a simple questi...</a></h5><blockquote>Dear Proof of the pudding,<br /><br />I have a simple question: original claim ABC. Original description ABC. D is declared optional in the description and is embodied in a dependent claim. Following examination, the allowable claim reads ABCD. Do you think that the description should remain unamended and D still mentioned as optional?<br /><br />I have never received a compelling and coApr 01 15:36
schestowitz[TR]nvincing reply to this question by all the proponents of not amending the description. <br /><br />To me, the inevitable logical conclusion is that the description cannot be left as filed and the optional character of D cannot remain. This reasoning can be applied applies mutatis mutandis to other cases in which the description has to be adapted. <br /> <br />If you consider that no amendment to the description in the sense I suggesApr 01 15:36
schestowitz[TR]t is necessary, the inevitable logical conclusion is that when later in front of a national judge it comes to interpreting the description under Art 69(1) and the Protocol, you will actually wish to assert that the claim, although limited to ABCD, should not be looked at so narrowly as the description still says that D is optional. <br /><br />The reason d’être of Art 84, second sentence, is to avoid this possibility. What is wroApr 01 15:36
schestowitz[TR]ng with the requirement of adapting the description, when the actual contribution to the art is limited to ABCD?<br /><br />Apr 01 15:36
-TechBytesBot/#techbytes-ipkitten.blogspot.com | G 2/21: Is the technical effect embodied by the invention as originally disclosed? - The IPKatApr 01 15:36
-TechBytesBot/#techbytes- ( status 404 @ https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Whataboutism<br )Apr 01 15:36
-TechBytesBot/#techbytes-ipkitten.blogspot.com | G 2/21: Is the technical effect embodied by the invention as originally disclosed? - The IPKatApr 01 15:37
-TechBytesBot/#techbytes-ipkitten.blogspot.com | G 2/21: Is the technical effect embodied by the invention as originally disclosed? - The IPKatApr 01 15:37
-TechBytesBot/#techbytes-ipkitten.blogspot.com | G 2/21: Is the technical effect embodied by the invention as originally disclosed? - The IPKatApr 01 15:38
-TechBytesBot/#techbytes-ipkitten.blogspot.com | G 2/21: Is the technical effect embodied by the invention as originally disclosed? - The IPKatApr 01 15:38
*geert (~geert@z7btufqgasxb8.irc) has joined #techbytesApr 01 16:14
*liberty_box has quit (Ping timeout: 2m30s)Apr 01 16:41
*rianne__ has quit (Ping timeout: 2m30s)Apr 01 16:41
*rianne_ has quit (Connection closed)Apr 01 16:41
*rianne__ (~rianne@rbnv8qskr8rgw.irc) has joined #techbytesApr 01 16:42
*rianne_ (~rianne@freenode-448.p91.7dgmmg.IP) has joined #techbytesApr 01 16:42
*liberty_box (~liberty@rbnv8qskr8rgw.irc) has joined #techbytesApr 01 16:43
*psydroid2 has quit (Quit: Leaving)Apr 01 21:59
*geert has quit (Ping timeout: 2m30s)Apr 01 23:14

Generated by irclog2html.py 2.6 | ䷉ find the plain text version at this address (HTTP) or in Gemini (how to use Gemini) with a full GemText version.