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| r_schestowitz | > how full of shit is josh? | Oct 03 04:13 |
|---|---|---|
| r_schestowitz | > | Oct 03 04:13 |
| r_schestowitz | > ive spent an hour reading this shit, yes, i will be deleting all of this (including my replies) but you dont have to. | Oct 03 04:13 |
| r_schestowitz | > | Oct 03 04:13 |
| r_schestowitz | > josh is the traitor. probably. i dont know. heres a section of chat ive already processed: | Oct 03 04:13 |
| r_schestowitz | > | Oct 03 04:13 |
| r_schestowitz | > (either way hes full of shit) | Oct 03 04:13 |
| r_schestowitz | > | Oct 03 04:13 |
| r_schestowitz | > | Oct 03 04:14 |
| r_schestowitz | > | Oct 03 04:14 |
| r_schestowitz | > [05:30] <jgay> r_schestowitz you can't really just write what you want | Oct 03 04:14 |
| r_schestowitz | > to write on a personal site or blog either | Oct 03 04:14 |
| r_schestowitz | > | Oct 03 04:14 |
| r_schestowitz | > | Oct 03 04:14 |
| r_schestowitz | > | Oct 03 04:14 |
| r_schestowitz | > [05:38] <jgay> r_schestowitz yes, i also will firmly reject bill gates | Oct 03 04:14 |
| r_schestowitz | > as the leader of the free software foundation and free software movement | Oct 03 04:14 |
| r_schestowitz | > | Oct 03 04:14 |
| r_schestowitz | > You know Josh, you are (perhaps conveniently) creating a job description for the leader of the free software movement that nobody will ever live up to. | Oct 03 04:14 |
| r_schestowitz | > | Oct 03 04:14 |
| r_schestowitz | > A de facto leaderless movement, cutting the head off the movement. What OTHER organisations are you a member of? | Oct 03 04:14 |
| r_schestowitz | > | Oct 03 04:14 |
| r_schestowitz | > | Oct 03 04:14 |
| r_schestowitz | > [05:39] <jgay> ok so Gates is a terrible pick for the leader of the free | Oct 03 04:14 |
| r_schestowitz | > software movement | Oct 03 04:14 |
| r_schestowitz | > | Oct 03 04:14 |
| r_schestowitz | > double standards, everywhere, nobody we can pick. stallmans not professional, and gates is just a dick. | Oct 03 04:14 |
| r_schestowitz | > | Oct 03 04:14 |
| r_schestowitz | > | Oct 03 04:14 |
| r_schestowitz | > [05:40] <r_schestowitz> I can assure you RMS isn't much worse than some | Oct 03 04:14 |
| r_schestowitz | > CEOs you know | Oct 03 04:14 |
| r_schestowitz | > | Oct 03 04:14 |
| r_schestowitz | > hes not as bad. so we are holding him to a standard that is higher than corporations, in the name of being as professional as corporations. | Oct 03 04:14 |
| r_schestowitz | > | Oct 03 04:14 |
| r_schestowitz | > there are lots of words for this-- dishonesty, corruption, injustice... | Oct 03 04:14 |
| r_schestowitz | > | Oct 03 04:14 |
| r_schestowitz | > [05:40] <jgay> you have me there. I don't get this thing with Gates you | Oct 03 04:14 |
| r_schestowitz | > got going. There are lots of bad people we could pick. | Oct 03 04:14 |
| r_schestowitz | > | Oct 03 04:14 |
| r_schestowitz | > thats what microsoft says. WHAT ABOUT GAFA, BRO? | Oct 03 04:14 |
| r_schestowitz | > | Oct 03 04:14 |
| r_schestowitz | > [05:41] <jgay> and you won't find me calling any of them my heros but I | Oct 03 04:14 |
| r_schestowitz | > | Oct 03 04:14 |
| r_schestowitz | > ...am holding rms to an unreasonable standard to disqualify him from a job he is uniquely qualified for. | Oct 03 04:14 |
| r_schestowitz | > | Oct 03 04:14 |
| r_schestowitz | > | Oct 03 04:14 |
| r_schestowitz | > ...when doing moral comparisons, the behavior of rms is on | Oct 03 04:14 |
| r_schestowitz | > par with these other aweful human beings that society should reject | Oct 03 04:14 |
| r_schestowitz | > [05:41] <jgay> you won me over on that one | Oct 03 04:15 |
| r_schestowitz | > | Oct 03 04:15 |
| r_schestowitz | > [05:42] <jgay> reject rms and other bad men too. Q E D | Oct 03 04:15 |
| r_schestowitz | > | Oct 03 04:15 |
| r_schestowitz | > thats not "won over." hes just bullshitting. | Oct 03 04:15 |
| r_schestowitz | > | Oct 03 04:15 |
| r_schestowitz | > [05:42] <r_schestowitz> the alternatives might be even worse for FSF | Oct 03 04:15 |
| r_schestowitz | > IMHO | Oct 03 04:15 |
| r_schestowitz | > | Oct 03 04:15 |
| r_schestowitz | > especially if we disqualify everyone thats actually good before we can choose someone. | Oct 03 04:15 |
| r_schestowitz | > | Oct 03 04:15 |
| r_schestowitz | > thats how elections are rigged too-- they start finding people on the other side who are registered, and start disqualifying people based on unreasonable criteria. like having a name similar to someone who is disqualified... | Oct 03 04:15 |
| r_schestowitz | > | Oct 03 04:15 |
| r_schestowitz | > | Oct 03 04:15 |
| r_schestowitz | > | Oct 03 04:15 |
| r_schestowitz | > [05:42] <jgay> r_schestowitz it isn't just sex. It really is the recent | Oct 03 04:15 |
| r_schestowitz | > blow ups. The Code of Conduct | Oct 03 04:15 |
| r_schestowitz | > | Oct 03 04:15 |
| r_schestowitz | > | Oct 03 04:15 |
| r_schestowitz | > Is a perfect Malleus Hackerum (Hacker's Hammer, like the Witches' Hammer) to clear out as many key people as possible. | Oct 03 04:15 |
| r_schestowitz | > | Oct 03 04:15 |
| r_schestowitz | > doesn't apply to him statement at libre | Oct 03 04:15 |
| r_schestowitz | > planet was really bad | Oct 03 04:15 |
| r_schestowitz | > | Oct 03 04:15 |
| r_schestowitz | > yeah, techrights called it. they were worried they werent trying to get him to do better, they were trying to get rid of him. looks like it worked. | Oct 03 04:15 |
| r_schestowitz | > | Oct 03 04:15 |
| r_schestowitz | > "first we fire him." | Oct 03 04:15 |
| r_schestowitz | > "then we make up a reason." | Oct 03 04:15 |
| r_schestowitz | > "then we find a reason." | Oct 03 04:15 |
| r_schestowitz | > | Oct 03 04:15 |
| r_schestowitz | > this is the world we want to build, obviously. | Oct 03 04:15 |
| r_schestowitz | > | Oct 03 04:15 |
| r_schestowitz | > | Oct 03 04:15 |
| r_schestowitz | > [05:43] <r_schestowitz> it's like a censorship covenant | Oct 03 04:15 |
| r_schestowitz | > | Oct 03 04:15 |
| r_schestowitz | > code of control | Oct 03 04:15 |
| r_schestowitz | > | Oct 03 04:15 |
| r_schestowitz | > [05:43] <r_schestowitz> even women say this | Oct 03 04:15 |
| r_schestowitz | > | Oct 03 04:15 |
| r_schestowitz | > yep | Oct 03 04:15 |
| r_schestowitz | > | Oct 03 04:16 |
| r_schestowitz | > [05:43] <r_schestowitz> RMS might rightly perceive this as an attempt to | Oct 03 04:16 |
| r_schestowitz | > control his communications | Oct 03 04:16 |
| r_schestowitz | > | Oct 03 04:16 |
| r_schestowitz | > even retroactively, which-- what law do we pass that punishes crimes retroactively? just laws dont do that. code of conduct enforcement does. | Oct 03 04:16 |
| r_schestowitz | > | Oct 03 04:16 |
| r_schestowitz | > | Oct 03 04:16 |
| r_schestowitz | > [05:43] <r_schestowitz> (I would not blame him btw, I too say a lot) | Oct 03 04:16 |
| r_schestowitz | > | Oct 03 04:16 |
| r_schestowitz | > we all do. and we should do that more | Oct 03 04:16 |
| r_schestowitz | > | Oct 03 04:16 |
| r_schestowitz | > "i am spartacus!" | Oct 03 04:16 |
| r_schestowitz | > | Oct 03 04:16 |
| r_schestowitz | > "i fucked spartacus!" | Oct 03 04:16 |
| r_schestowitz | > | Oct 03 04:16 |
| r_schestowitz | > "i WOULD fuck spartacus!" | Oct 03 04:16 |
| r_schestowitz | > | Oct 03 04:16 |
| r_schestowitz | > "id fuck spartacus and call him a bitch!" | Oct 03 04:16 |
| r_schestowitz | > | Oct 03 04:16 |
| r_schestowitz | > "no, no, you cant do that" | Oct 03 04:16 |
| r_schestowitz | > | Oct 03 04:16 |
| r_schestowitz | > "dont kink-shame me!" | Oct 03 04:16 |
| r_schestowitz | > | Oct 03 04:16 |
| r_schestowitz | > | Oct 03 04:16 |
| r_schestowitz | > only eunichs need apply! (people with sex lives might say something offensive) | Oct 03 04:16 |
| r_schestowitz | > | Oct 03 04:16 |
| r_schestowitz | > [05:44] <jgay> if he had responded to that CoC thing well, I think he | Oct 03 04:16 |
| r_schestowitz | > may have had a chance being able to dig his way out of hte Epstein stuff | Oct 03 04:16 |
| r_schestowitz | > | Oct 03 04:16 |
| r_schestowitz | > this is so evil. its so dishonest. this guy is a definite traitor. | Oct 03 04:16 |
| r_schestowitz | > | Oct 03 04:16 |
| r_schestowitz | > | Oct 03 04:16 |
| r_schestowitz | > [05:44] <r_schestowitz> I've probably 'offended' just about every | Oct 03 04:16 |
| r_schestowitz | > 'group' in some past 'tweet' | Oct 03 04:16 |
| r_schestowitz | > | Oct 03 04:16 |
| r_schestowitz | > you should probably step down. | Oct 03 04:16 |
| r_schestowitz | > | Oct 03 04:16 |
| r_schestowitz | > we should all step down, just to be on the safe side. | Oct 03 04:16 |
| r_schestowitz | > | Oct 03 04:16 |
| r_schestowitz | > everybody-- stop working for freedom, youre not qualified, lets leave grassroots advocacy up to professionals! | Oct 03 04:16 |
| r_schestowitz | > | Oct 03 04:17 |
| r_schestowitz | > | Oct 03 04:17 |
| r_schestowitz | > | Oct 03 04:17 |
| r_schestowitz | > | Oct 03 04:17 |
| r_schestowitz | > [05:44] <r_schestowitz> there's no Epstein stuff per se | Oct 03 04:17 |
| r_schestowitz | > [05:44] <r_schestowitz> He's not connected to Epstein | Oct 03 04:17 |
| r_schestowitz | > [05:44] <r_schestowitz> He defended a deceased friend | Oct 03 04:17 |
| r_schestowitz | > [05:44] <r_schestowitz> not Epstein, whom he called "serial rapist" | Oct 03 04:17 |
| r_schestowitz | > | Oct 03 04:17 |
| r_schestowitz | > | Oct 03 04:17 |
| r_schestowitz | > [05:54] <jgay> But, the point is, when it was pointed out how wrong he | Oct 03 04:17 |
| r_schestowitz | > was, what he should have done is worked with the FSF and other community | Oct 03 04:17 |
| r_schestowitz | > members to issue a formal statement apologizing for the incensistive and | Oct 03 04:17 |
| r_schestowitz | > poorly chosen statement. | Oct 03 04:17 |
| r_schestowitz | > | Oct 03 04:17 |
| r_schestowitz | > THAT GOES BOTH WAYS, CHICO! thats not what fucking happened. | Oct 03 04:17 |
| r_schestowitz | > | Oct 03 04:17 |
| r_schestowitz | >> Even a bad non-apology probably would have been | Oct 03 04:17 |
| r_schestowitz | > "good enough" | Oct 03 04:17 |
| r_schestowitz | > | Oct 03 04:17 |
| r_schestowitz | > you can make a bad non-apology for yourself, for making a bad non-apology for someone else, but the bad non-apology for someone else is where we draw the line. | Oct 03 04:17 |
| r_schestowitz | > | Oct 03 04:17 |
| r_schestowitz | > [05:54] <jgay> sorry a bad non-apology apology would have been "good | Oct 03 04:17 |
| r_schestowitz | > enough" | Oct 03 04:17 |
| r_schestowitz | > | Oct 03 04:17 |
| r_schestowitz | > ok, that was much clearer. | Oct 03 04:17 |
| r_schestowitz | > | Oct 03 04:17 |
| r_schestowitz | > | Oct 03 04:17 |
| r_schestowitz | > | Oct 03 04:17 |
| r_schestowitz | > [06:04] <jgay> r_schestowitz the CBC article is pointing to the fact | Oct 03 04:17 |
| r_schestowitz | > that RMS took as his hypothetical thta Minsky slept with the young woman | Oct 03 04:17 |
| r_schestowitz | > and with that assumption, and instead of arguing clearly and simply that | Oct 03 04:17 |
| r_schestowitz | > Minsky's behavior was clearly wrong, RMS instead argues over semantics | Oct 03 04:17 |
| r_schestowitz | > of words like rape and how it is poor diction -- the overall effect of | Oct 03 04:17 |
| r_schestowitz | > which is | Oct 03 04:17 |
| r_schestowitz | > | Oct 03 04:17 |
| r_schestowitz | > a lawyer would not get disbarred for making an argument like that. lawyers have special rights to argue on behalf of people. everybody else gets fired and having the full force of 5-corporation mass media thrown at them. | Oct 03 04:17 |
| r_schestowitz | > | Oct 03 04:17 |
| r_schestowitz | > thats only fair, roy! the fsf guy said so. | Oct 03 04:17 |
| r_schestowitz | > | Oct 03 04:17 |
| r_schestowitz | > | Oct 03 04:18 |
| r_schestowitz | > | Oct 03 04:18 |
| r_schestowitz | > [06:04] <jgay> rationalizing the behavior of Minsky as possibly being | Oct 03 04:18 |
| r_schestowitz | > something other than a sexual predator. | Oct 03 04:18 |
| r_schestowitz | > | Oct 03 04:18 |
| r_schestowitz | > ALLEGED behavior, josh. if minsky was around, he would have grounds to sue for this. | Oct 03 04:18 |
| r_schestowitz | > | Oct 03 04:18 |
| r_schestowitz | > | Oct 03 04:18 |
| r_schestowitz | > | Oct 03 04:18 |
| r_schestowitz | > [06:04] <kaniini> I disagree. I think it's ok to defend Minsky. | Oct 03 04:18 |
| r_schestowitz | > [06:04] <kaniini> but | Oct 03 04:18 |
| r_schestowitz | > [06:05] <kaniini> the way I would have done it would have been to | Oct 03 04:18 |
| r_schestowitz | > | Oct 03 04:18 |
| r_schestowitz | > | Oct 03 04:18 |
| r_schestowitz | > | Oct 03 04:18 |
| r_schestowitz | > [06:06] <kaniini> what RMS did instead threw Minsky under the bus by | Oct 03 04:18 |
| r_schestowitz | > going with the narrative that he executed on the sex offer | Oct 03 04:18 |
| r_schestowitz | > | Oct 03 04:18 |
| r_schestowitz | > NO HE DIDNT. he commented on the narrative. that does not imply agreement with it. | Oct 03 04:18 |
| r_schestowitz | > | Oct 03 04:18 |
| r_schestowitz | > | Oct 03 04:18 |
| r_schestowitz | > | Oct 03 04:18 |
| r_schestowitz | > [06:10] <kaniini> and Minsky did violate MIT policy by engaging with | Oct 03 04:18 |
| r_schestowitz | > Epstein to ask for funding | Oct 03 04:18 |
| r_schestowitz | > | Oct 03 04:18 |
| r_schestowitz | > moving the bar. | Oct 03 04:18 |
| r_schestowitz | > | Oct 03 04:18 |
| r_schestowitz | > | Oct 03 04:18 |
| r_schestowitz | > | Oct 03 04:18 |
| r_schestowitz | > [06:10] <kaniini> but that would have remained an internal MIT issue | Oct 03 04:18 |
| r_schestowitz | > [06:10] <kaniini> if it were not for RMS's blowup about it | Oct 03 04:18 |
| r_schestowitz | > | Oct 03 04:18 |
| r_schestowitz | > no, he didnt make it public. | Oct 03 04:18 |
| r_schestowitz | > | Oct 03 04:18 |
| r_schestowitz | > [06:11] <r_schestowitz> RMS said much worse things in the past | Oct 03 04:18 |
| r_schestowitz | > [06:11] <kaniini> yes | Oct 03 04:18 |
| r_schestowitz | > [06:11] <r_schestowitz> but this is the thing that 'blew it' for MIT, | Oct 03 04:18 |
| r_schestowitz | > than FSF | Oct 03 04:18 |
| r_schestowitz | > | Oct 03 04:18 |
| r_schestowitz | > only because MIT (not stallman) fucked up so much. theres a word for this-- scapegoating. | Oct 03 04:18 |
| r_schestowitz | > | Oct 03 04:19 |
| r_schestowitz | > | Oct 03 04:19 |
| r_schestowitz | > | Oct 03 04:19 |
| r_schestowitz | > [06:14] <kaniini> i think the gates thing is deflection :) | Oct 03 04:19 |
| r_schestowitz | > | Oct 03 04:19 |
| r_schestowitz | > yeah, hes right. gates is small change, petty theft compared to THIS! | Oct 03 04:19 |
| r_schestowitz | > | Oct 03 04:19 |
| r_schestowitz | > | Oct 03 04:19 |
| r_schestowitz | > | Oct 03 04:19 |
| r_schestowitz | > [06:14] <kaniini> sure, there is a thing, and sure it should be investigated | Oct 03 04:19 |
| r_schestowitz | > | Oct 03 04:19 |
| r_schestowitz | > double standards MUCH? | Oct 03 04:19 |
| r_schestowitz | > | Oct 03 04:19 |
| r_schestowitz | > | Oct 03 04:19 |
| r_schestowitz | > [06:14] <r_schestowitz> (analogy being, RMS said they should legalise | Oct 03 04:19 |
| r_schestowitz | > heroin, whereas someone else was a heroin dealer, not just user) | Oct 03 04:19 |
| r_schestowitz | > | Oct 03 04:19 |
| r_schestowitz | > not bad. very accurate. | Oct 03 04:19 |
| r_schestowitz | > | Oct 03 04:19 |
| r_schestowitz | > | Oct 03 04:19 |
| r_schestowitz | > | Oct 03 04:19 |
| r_schestowitz | > [06:28] <jgay> kaniini right in the hypothetical argument, rms assumed | Oct 03 04:19 |
| r_schestowitz | > Minsky had slept with Virginia Giuffre. This makes sense, since Virginia | Oct 03 04:19 |
| r_schestowitz | > Giuffre testified that she had slept with Minsky. So it was the right | Oct 03 04:19 |
| r_schestowitz | > assumption to make. After that, it should be clear that anything else he | Oct 03 04:19 |
| r_schestowitz | > says should only be too bring the attention on victims and on the need | Oct 03 04:19 |
| r_schestowitz | > to keep | Oct 03 04:19 |
| r_schestowitz | > | Oct 03 04:19 |
| r_schestowitz | > | Oct 03 04:19 |
| r_schestowitz | > [06:29] <kaniini> did she? i thought she testified that she made an offer | Oct 03 04:19 |
| r_schestowitz | > | Oct 03 04:19 |
| r_schestowitz | > which just makes the whole thing even more ridiculous. | Oct 03 04:19 |
| r_schestowitz | > | Oct 03 04:19 |
| r_schestowitz | > | Oct 03 04:19 |
| r_schestowitz | > | Oct 03 04:19 |
| r_schestowitz | > [06:33] <jgay> Epstein's island in the US Virgin islands. Maybe it | Oct 03 04:19 |
| r_schestowitz | > wasn't Minsky but someother person | Oct 03 04:19 |
| r_schestowitz | > | Oct 03 04:19 |
| r_schestowitz | > STEP DOWN, JOSH! you just now did what stallman did! | Oct 03 04:19 |
| r_schestowitz | > | Oct 03 04:19 |
| r_schestowitz | > | Oct 03 04:20 |
| r_schestowitz | > but, she remembers it being Minsky | Oct 03 04:20 |
| r_schestowitz | > | Oct 03 04:20 |
| r_schestowitz | > so now theres some doubt? are you arguing that maybe minsky was innocent? how do you live with yourself, you misogynist! | Oct 03 04:20 |
| r_schestowitz | > | Oct 03 04:20 |
| r_schestowitz | > #REMOVEJOSH | Oct 03 04:20 |
| r_schestowitz | > | Oct 03 04:20 |
| r_schestowitz | > (dont worry, im not really outraged. i should be, but im just-- wow.) | Oct 03 04:20 |
| r_schestowitz | > | Oct 03 04:20 |
| r_schestowitz | > | Oct 03 04:20 |
| r_schestowitz | > [06:33] <r_schestowitz> but asserting that he "supports Epstein" | Oct 03 04:20 |
| r_schestowitz | > [06:33] <r_schestowitz> This is the sort of headliner parroted everywhere | Oct 03 04:20 |
| r_schestowitz | > [06:33] <kaniini> yes i don't think RMS was intending to "support" Epstein | Oct 03 04:20 |
| r_schestowitz | > | Oct 03 04:20 |
| r_schestowitz | > HE DIDNT SUPPORT HIM. IT WAS A F-A-B-R-I-C-A-T-I-O-N. | Oct 03 04:20 |
| r_schestowitz | > | Oct 03 04:20 |
| r_schestowitz | > | Oct 03 04:20 |
| r_schestowitz | > | Oct 03 04:20 |
| r_schestowitz | > [06:39] <kaniini> RMS answer makes sense. if he has delegated access to | Oct 03 04:20 |
| r_schestowitz | > an unknown untrustworthy actor, then obviously he is not going to admit it | Oct 03 04:20 |
| r_schestowitz | > | Oct 03 04:20 |
| r_schestowitz | > why on earth not? he had no problem calling de icaza a traitor after trusting him and giving him an award. | Oct 03 04:20 |
| r_schestowitz | > | Oct 03 04:20 |
| r_schestowitz | > unless its for security purposes, and he doesnt want actor to know-- as ive implied in article. but would actor be fooled by "error" comment? | Oct 03 04:20 |
| r_schestowitz | > | Oct 03 04:20 |
| r_schestowitz | > | Oct 03 04:20 |
| r_schestowitz | > [06:40] <kaniini> many of the articles on fsf.org and gnu.org attributed | Oct 03 04:20 |
| r_schestowitz | > to RMS are actually written by interns | Oct 03 04:20 |
| r_schestowitz | > | Oct 03 04:20 |
| r_schestowitz | > | Oct 03 04:20 |
| r_schestowitz | > [06:40] <oiaohm> kaniini: the big problem is when you are in a | Oct 03 04:20 |
| r_schestowitz | > management role your job is basically a judge. | Oct 03 04:20 |
| r_schestowitz | > | Oct 03 04:20 |
| r_schestowitz | > oh shut the fuck up, ohm. youve done nothing but repeat your same shtick for about 3 fucking weeks straight. are you hired by the association of codes of conduct, or what? youre doing all this repetition FOR FREE? good man! | Oct 03 04:20 |
| r_schestowitz | > | Oct 03 04:20 |
| r_schestowitz | > asshole. | Oct 03 04:20 |
| r_schestowitz | > | Oct 03 04:20 |
| r_schestowitz | > | Oct 03 04:20 |
| r_schestowitz | > [06:40] <jgay> but generally RMS has always done a really good job of | Oct 03 04:20 |
| r_schestowitz | > not having any FSF people do anything stallman.org related and to keep a | Oct 03 04:20 |
| r_schestowitz | > big firewall between them | Oct 03 04:21 |
| r_schestowitz | > | Oct 03 04:21 |
| r_schestowitz | > im glad this guy isnt in charge of stallman.org | Oct 03 04:21 |
| r_schestowitz | > | Oct 03 04:21 |
| r_schestowitz | > | Oct 03 04:21 |
| r_schestowitz | > | Oct 03 04:21 |
| r_schestowitz | > [06:40] <oiaohm> kaniini: RMS titles with GNU and FSF meant he was in | Oct 03 04:21 |
| r_schestowitz | > management of those groups. | Oct 03 04:21 |
| r_schestowitz | > | Oct 03 04:21 |
| r_schestowitz | > old political speech trick | Oct 03 04:21 |
| r_schestowitz | > 1. mundane facts no one ever disputes or everybody knows | Oct 03 04:21 |
| r_schestowitz | > 2. mundane facts no one ever disputes or everybody knows | Oct 03 04:21 |
| r_schestowitz | > 3. point you want people to believe | Oct 03 04:21 |
| r_schestowitz | > | Oct 03 04:21 |
| r_schestowitz | > | Oct 03 04:21 |
| r_schestowitz | > [06:41] <r_schestowitz> jgay: he was pushed out not for FSF stuff | Oct 03 04:21 |
| r_schestowitz | > [06:41] <r_schestowitz> but for MIT post | Oct 03 04:21 |
| r_schestowitz | > [06:41] <r_schestowitz> and maybe some old stuff from stallman.org | Oct 03 04:21 |
| r_schestowitz | > | Oct 03 04:21 |
| r_schestowitz | > [06:41] <oiaohm> With the recent cases showing the old law applied the | Oct 03 04:21 |
| r_schestowitz | > way RMS attempt to defend friend was not a workable option. | Oct 03 04:21 |
| r_schestowitz | > | Oct 03 04:21 |
| r_schestowitz | > *picks up the needle on ohms tired record* | Oct 03 04:21 |
| r_schestowitz | > | Oct 03 04:21 |
| r_schestowitz | > | Oct 03 04:21 |
| r_schestowitz | > [06:41] <r_schestowitz> so the separation does not seem to be wholly | Oct 03 04:21 |
| r_schestowitz | > honoured by tge FSF's Board | Oct 03 04:21 |
| r_schestowitz | > | Oct 03 04:21 |
| r_schestowitz | > good point | Oct 03 04:21 |
| r_schestowitz | > | Oct 03 04:21 |
| r_schestowitz | > [06:42] <poet> I just finished reading "Getting Stallman Wrong," and I | Oct 03 04:21 |
| r_schestowitz | > wanted to say what an absolutely fantastic article it is. Thank you. =) | Oct 03 04:21 |
| r_schestowitz | > | Oct 03 04:21 |
| r_schestowitz | > cheers poet | Oct 03 04:21 |
| r_schestowitz | > | Oct 03 04:21 |
| r_schestowitz | > | Oct 03 04:21 |
| r_schestowitz | > The board has | Oct 03 04:21 |
| r_schestowitz | > not really shared much about what the discussion with RMS was like or if | Oct 03 04:21 |
| r_schestowitz | > staff like John Sullivan asked to do a formal apology and that was | Oct 03 04:21 |
| r_schestowitz | > rejected by RMS -- I don't know all those details. | Oct 03 04:21 |
| r_schestowitz | > | Oct 03 04:22 |
| r_schestowitz | > but lets assume rms turned those down, because that was the argument for why he is not suitable made earlier. | Oct 03 04:22 |
| r_schestowitz | > | Oct 03 04:22 |
| r_schestowitz | > do we, knowing the modern version, believe he would turn that down? | Oct 03 04:22 |
| r_schestowitz | > | Oct 03 04:22 |
| r_schestowitz | > (fuck no.) | Oct 03 04:22 |
| r_schestowitz | > | Oct 03 04:22 |
| r_schestowitz | > its an accusation that assumes guilt as the reason to accuse in the first place... | Oct 03 04:22 |
| r_schestowitz | > | Oct 03 04:22 |
| r_schestowitz | > | Oct 03 04:22 |
| r_schestowitz | > [06:43] <r_schestowitz> what was the apology >for< (as requested)? | Oct 03 04:22 |
| r_schestowitz | > | Oct 03 04:22 |
| r_schestowitz | > indeed. | Oct 03 04:22 |
| r_schestowitz | > [06:43] <kaniini> he said he didn't know if one was requested | Oct 03 04:22 |
| r_schestowitz | > [06:44] <jgay> r_schestowitz I don't know if John did ask him if the FSF | Oct 03 04:22 |
| r_schestowitz | > can/should do an apology. If I were in John's shoes, i would have | Oct 03 04:22 |
| r_schestowitz | > | Oct 03 04:22 |
| r_schestowitz | > so hes assuming it based on what he would do. and his argument against stallman is based on rms turning down what josh hypothetically would have offered. | Oct 03 04:22 |
| r_schestowitz | > | Oct 03 04:22 |
| r_schestowitz | > brilliant. | Oct 03 04:22 |
| r_schestowitz | > | Oct 03 04:22 |
| r_schestowitz | > | Oct 03 04:22 |
| r_schestowitz | > [06:45] <oiaohm> kaniini: I have been in the location where management | Oct 03 04:22 |
| r_schestowitz | > could not defend me until I produced all the facts they need to prove | Oct 03 04:22 |
| r_schestowitz | > the claim was absolutely false. It was not because the manager was a | Oct 03 04:22 |
| r_schestowitz | > jerk it was just the legal restrictions of the position. | Oct 03 04:22 |
| r_schestowitz | > | Oct 03 04:22 |
| r_schestowitz | > thats a tall order. "prove youre innocent against these accusations or we cant help!" | Oct 03 04:22 |
| r_schestowitz | > | Oct 03 04:22 |
| r_schestowitz | > really? | Oct 03 04:22 |
| r_schestowitz | > | Oct 03 04:22 |
| r_schestowitz | > | Oct 03 04:22 |
| r_schestowitz | > [06:47] <r_schestowitz> jgay: was there a vote as I heard? | Oct 03 04:22 |
| r_schestowitz | > [06:47] <r_schestowitz> on RMS? | Oct 03 04:22 |
| r_schestowitz | > [06:47] <oiaohm> jgay: the big there those old items were problemmatic | Oct 03 04:22 |
| r_schestowitz | > yet they left RMS in the management role. Those really should been | Oct 03 04:22 |
| r_schestowitz | > enough back then to move him to PR or something lower | Oct 03 04:22 |
| r_schestowitz | > | Oct 03 04:22 |
| r_schestowitz | > shut up, ohm | Oct 03 04:22 |
| r_schestowitz | > | Oct 03 04:22 |
| r_schestowitz | > | Oct 03 04:23 |
| r_schestowitz | > [06:48] <jgay> in the US, the board and president are somewhat | Oct 03 04:23 |
| r_schestowitz | > firewalled from the CEO/Executive Director that is hired to run the | Oct 03 04:23 |
| r_schestowitz | > organization. | Oct 03 04:23 |
| r_schestowitz | > | Oct 03 04:23 |
| r_schestowitz | > | Oct 03 04:23 |
| r_schestowitz | > [06:50] <oiaohm> r_schestowitz: true to a point the media had distorted | Oct 03 04:23 |
| r_schestowitz | > it. But some of the point RMS did used were not current law and had | Oct 03 04:23 |
| r_schestowitz | > not been current law for over 2 decades. | Oct 03 04:23 |
| r_schestowitz | > | Oct 03 04:23 |
| r_schestowitz | > so fucking what? | Oct 03 04:23 |
| r_schestowitz | > | Oct 03 04:23 |
| r_schestowitz | > | Oct 03 04:23 |
| r_schestowitz | > [06:50] <jgay> I mean, the point is, there are lots of ways to handle | Oct 03 04:23 |
| r_schestowitz | > situations where you fuck up. RMS fucked up and any number of | Oct 03 04:23 |
| r_schestowitz | > possibilities were readily available to him | Oct 03 04:23 |
| r_schestowitz | > | Oct 03 04:23 |
| r_schestowitz | > hypothetically, if josh were john, there were any number of them | Oct 03 04:23 |
| r_schestowitz | > | Oct 03 04:23 |
| r_schestowitz | > any minute or hour of the | Oct 03 04:23 |
| r_schestowitz | > day at no cost and that could be trusted. | Oct 03 04:23 |
| r_schestowitz | > | Oct 03 04:23 |
| r_schestowitz | > what the fuck are you talking about josh? | Oct 03 04:23 |
| r_schestowitz | > | Oct 03 04:23 |
| r_schestowitz | > He knows that there are lots | Oct 03 04:23 |
| r_schestowitz | > of people close to the FSF that are better at communications than he is | Oct 03 04:23 |
| r_schestowitz | > and he could have | Oct 03 04:23 |
| r_schestowitz | > | Oct 03 04:23 |
| r_schestowitz | > ...to speak for him. | Oct 03 04:23 |
| r_schestowitz | > | Oct 03 04:23 |
| r_schestowitz | > [06:50] <jgay> If he did ask for help and this is what he got, then that | Oct 03 04:23 |
| r_schestowitz | > is really really sad. But, I suspect he didn't ask for help. | Oct 03 04:23 |
| r_schestowitz | > | Oct 03 04:23 |
| r_schestowitz | > all over the place: | Oct 03 04:23 |
| r_schestowitz | > 1. he should have accepted help | Oct 03 04:23 |
| r_schestowitz | > 2. hypothetically, there would be help if i was someone else vice / versa | Oct 03 04:23 |
| r_schestowitz | > 3. plenty of people could have helped | Oct 03 04:23 |
| r_schestowitz | > 4. he didnt ask, even though it was probably offered | Oct 03 04:23 |
| r_schestowitz | > | Oct 03 04:23 |
| r_schestowitz | > moving the bar, backpedalling or just making up shit as he goes along? | Oct 03 04:23 |
| r_schestowitz | > | Oct 03 04:24 |
| r_schestowitz | > this guy would find fault with jesus himself. | Oct 03 04:24 |
| r_schestowitz | > | Oct 03 04:24 |
| r_schestowitz | > "throwing out the moneychangers was pretty unprofessional for a religious leader, let alone the son of god." | Oct 03 04:24 |
| r_schestowitz | > | Oct 03 04:24 |
| r_schestowitz | > "there was a lot of pressure from preachers, blame them not the apostles" | Oct 03 04:24 |
| r_schestowitz | > | Oct 03 04:24 |
| r_schestowitz | > "other people besides jesus are far better as representing christianity. paul for instance, wasnt even born until 100 fucking years later, but weve made leaps and bounds since the crucifixion, stuff jesus never even knew about himself..." | Oct 03 04:24 |
| r_schestowitz | > | Oct 03 04:24 |
| r_schestowitz | > (i cant believe these people.) | Oct 03 04:24 |
| r_schestowitz | > | Oct 03 04:24 |
| r_schestowitz | > | Oct 03 04:24 |
| r_schestowitz | > | Oct 03 04:24 |
| r_schestowitz | > [06:51] <r_schestowitz> even better communicators cannot properly deal | Oct 03 04:24 |
| r_schestowitz | > with malicious liars | Oct 03 04:24 |
| r_schestowitz | > [06:51] <kaniini> sure they can | Oct 03 04:24 |
| r_schestowitz | > | Oct 03 04:24 |
| r_schestowitz | > magiiiiiiiiiic... | Oct 03 04:24 |
| r_schestowitz | > | Oct 03 04:24 |
| r_schestowitz | > fsf took the easy way. | Oct 03 04:24 |
| r_schestowitz | > | Oct 03 04:24 |
| r_schestowitz | > rms took the easy way, at great personal cost. either way really, is the hard way. | Oct 03 04:24 |
| r_schestowitz | > | Oct 03 04:24 |
| r_schestowitz | > josh-- has obviously made peace with it. which is a nice way to say he doesnt fucking give a shit. | Oct 03 04:24 |
| r_schestowitz | > | Oct 03 04:24 |
| r_schestowitz | > ask lessig (former fsf board) if he can comment on any of ohms naval-gazing legalistic nonsense. stallman is a hero of lessigs. lessig says creative commons (which he founded) is basically a ripoff of all stallmans ideas. he showed a video where his free software award was hung up on his office door. | Oct 03 04:24 |
| r_schestowitz | > | Oct 03 04:24 |
| r_schestowitz | > and he teaches law at harvard, where stallman could have taught physics, but he preferred computers. | Oct 03 04:24 |
| r_schestowitz | > | Oct 03 04:24 |
| r_schestowitz | > | Oct 03 04:24 |
| r_schestowitz | > [06:51] <kaniini> you get in front of the lie | Oct 03 04:24 |
| r_schestowitz | > | Oct 03 04:24 |
| r_schestowitz | > instead of behind it, like people are doing | Oct 03 04:24 |
| r_schestowitz | > | Oct 03 04:24 |
| r_schestowitz | > [06:51] <jgay> He knows he sucks at doing certain things when it comes | Oct 03 04:24 |
| r_schestowitz | > to communicating. I know he knows this because he has explained it to me | Oct 03 04:24 |
| r_schestowitz | > in very clear terms about what his strengths and weaknesses are | Oct 03 04:24 |
| r_schestowitz | > | Oct 03 04:24 |
| r_schestowitz | > common knowledge | Oct 03 04:24 |
| r_schestowitz | > | Oct 03 04:24 |
| r_schestowitz | > and how | Oct 03 04:25 |
| r_schestowitz | > he trusted me to do the right hting in strategic approaches | Oct 03 04:25 |
| r_schestowitz | > | Oct 03 04:25 |
| r_schestowitz | > oops! | Oct 03 04:25 |
| r_schestowitz | > | Oct 03 04:25 |
| r_schestowitz | > [06:52] <oiaohm> jgay: when it comes to legal messes like sexual assault | Oct 03 04:25 |
| r_schestowitz | > and other claims CEO/Executive director firewall from precedent and | Oct 03 04:25 |
| r_schestowitz | > board does not work due to the old law. The old law | Oct 03 04:25 |
| r_schestowitz | > | Oct 03 04:25 |
| r_schestowitz | > what old law? | Oct 03 04:25 |
| r_schestowitz | > | Oct 03 04:25 |
| r_schestowitz | > | Oct 03 04:25 |
| r_schestowitz | > | Oct 03 04:25 |
| r_schestowitz | > [06:55] <jgay> r_schestowitz it isn't about popular opinion or the | Oct 03 04:25 |
| r_schestowitz | > media. It is about those close to the FSF, those allies, those | Oct 03 04:25 |
| r_schestowitz | > supporters who have and want to work with them, being able to trust that | Oct 03 04:25 |
| r_schestowitz | > he is also willing to work with them on doing what is right for the | Oct 03 04:25 |
| r_schestowitz | > | Oct 03 04:25 |
| r_schestowitz | > ...corporations. | Oct 03 04:25 |
| r_schestowitz | > | Oct 03 04:25 |
| r_schestowitz | > | Oct 03 04:25 |
| r_schestowitz | > But after the conservancy statement, | Oct 03 04:25 |
| r_schestowitz | > | Oct 03 04:25 |
| r_schestowitz | > stab in the back | Oct 03 04:25 |
| r_schestowitz | > | Oct 03 04:25 |
| r_schestowitz | > it would have taken a lot more than just asking for help. | Oct 03 04:25 |
| r_schestowitz | > | Oct 03 04:25 |
| r_schestowitz | > LIAR! | Oct 03 04:25 |
| r_schestowitz | > | Oct 03 04:25 |
| r_schestowitz | > josh is just throwing shit at the wall to find out what sticks | Oct 03 04:25 |
| r_schestowitz | > | Oct 03 04:25 |
| r_schestowitz | > 1. he should have accepted help (first claim) | Oct 03 04:25 |
| r_schestowitz | > 2. hypothetically, there would be help if i was someone else vice / versa (2nd claim) | Oct 03 04:25 |
| r_schestowitz | > 3. plenty of people could have helped (3rd claim) | Oct 03 04:25 |
| r_schestowitz | > 4. he didnt ask, even though it was probably offered (4th claim) | Oct 03 04:25 |
| r_schestowitz | > 5. it would have taken a lot more than just asking for help. (just now) | Oct 03 04:25 |
| r_schestowitz | > | Oct 03 04:25 |
| r_schestowitz | > fuck you, josh. | Oct 03 04:25 |
| r_schestowitz | > | Oct 03 04:25 |
| r_schestowitz | > | Oct 03 04:25 |
| r_schestowitz | > | Oct 03 04:26 |
| r_schestowitz | > He should have been on a plane pleading with Karen and/or Bradley. Apologizing. | Oct 03 04:26 |
| r_schestowitz | > | Oct 03 04:26 |
| r_schestowitz | > FUCK YOUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUU, josh! | Oct 03 04:26 |
| r_schestowitz | > | Oct 03 04:26 |
| r_schestowitz | > pleading with traitors? go fucking kill yourself. | Oct 03 04:26 |
| r_schestowitz | > [03:25] <kaniini> stallman.org <http://stallman.org> was definitely on | Oct 03 04:35 |
| -TechBytesBot/#techbytes-stallman.org | Richard Stallman's Personal Page | Oct 03 04:35 | |
| r_schestowitz | > FSF infrastructure | Oct 03 04:35 |
| r_schestowitz | > | Oct 03 04:35 |
| r_schestowitz | > [03:28] <r_schestowitz> kaniini: jgay and mattl say no | Oct 03 04:35 |
| r_schestowitz | > [03:29] <r_schestowitz> or that it had been >not< on their turf for some | Oct 03 04:35 |
| r_schestowitz | > time | Oct 03 04:35 |
| r_schestowitz | > | Oct 03 04:35 |
| r_schestowitz | > HMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMM | Oct 03 04:35 |
| r_schestowitz | > | Oct 03 04:35 |
| r_schestowitz | > [03:30] <kaniini> seems like they don't know which authorised person is | Oct 03 04:35 |
| r_schestowitz | > doing it then | Oct 03 04:35 |
| r_schestowitz | > | Oct 03 04:35 |
| r_schestowitz | > [03:35] <r_schestowitz> kaniini: maybe you can ask around, but I'm | Oct 03 04:35 |
| r_schestowitz | > starting to worry we might >NEVER< find out what exactly happened there | Oct 03 04:35 |
| r_schestowitz | > and who the culprit was | Oct 03 04:35 |
| r_schestowitz | > | Oct 03 04:35 |
| r_schestowitz | > or its right under our noses (but i dont know either) | Oct 03 04:35 |
| r_schestowitz | > | Oct 03 04:35 |
| r_schestowitz | > [03:43] <r_schestowitz> jgay: | Oct 03 04:35 |
| r_schestowitz | > [03:43] <r_schestowitz> you responded to me hours ago; but two points: | Oct 03 04:35 |
| r_schestowitz | > [03:43] <r_schestowitz> 1) you did not dispute what I had said | Oct 03 04:35 |
| r_schestowitz | > [03:43] <r_schestowitz> 2) you reaffirmed my view you're sort of | Oct 03 04:35 |
| r_schestowitz | > pro-corporate control | Oct 03 04:35 |
| r_schestowitz | > [03:43] <r_schestowitz> I'm not against corporations of course, per se, | Oct 03 04:35 |
| r_schestowitz | > I even work for one | Oct 03 04:35 |
| r_schestowitz | > | Oct 03 04:35 |
| r_schestowitz | > im against monopolies, monopolies are against free software-- free | Oct 03 04:35 |
| r_schestowitz | > software is against monopolies. | Oct 03 04:35 |
| r_schestowitz | > | Oct 03 04:35 |
| r_schestowitz | > [03:43] <jgay> r_schestowitz I didn't dispute what you said, i simply | Oct 03 04:35 |
| r_schestowitz | > wanted to understand where you were getting your opinions as they did | Oct 03 04:35 |
| r_schestowitz | > not seem to be rooted in evidence but suspicion | Oct 03 04:35 |
| r_schestowitz | > | Oct 03 04:35 |
| r_schestowitz | > they are also closer to what rms said than what jgay says. | Oct 03 04:36 |
| r_schestowitz | > | Oct 03 04:36 |
| r_schestowitz | > when the owner of stallman.org <http://stallman.org> wont say what | Oct 03 04:36 |
| -TechBytesBot/#techbytes-stallman.org | Richard Stallman's Personal Page | Oct 03 04:36 | |
| r_schestowitz | > happened, and someone who is a potential suspect calls you paranoid just | Oct 03 04:36 |
| r_schestowitz | > for stating what the owner stated, and the owner was attacked, youre | Oct 03 04:36 |
| r_schestowitz | > either dealing with a narcissist, a fool or the attacker. | Oct 03 04:36 |
| r_schestowitz | > | Oct 03 04:36 |
| r_schestowitz | > but this is jumping ahead. and i really dont know. | Oct 03 04:36 |
| r_schestowitz | > | Oct 03 04:36 |
| r_schestowitz | > [03:45] <r_schestowitz> some people tried to somehow blame Salesfroce, | Oct 03 04:36 |
| r_schestowitz | > but offered nothing convincing | Oct 03 04:36 |
| r_schestowitz | > | Oct 03 04:36 |
| r_schestowitz | > salesforce IS dirty, is oracle-related, oracle is a known | Oct 03 04:36 |
| r_schestowitz | > anti-free-software powerhouse and msft proxy, sarah mei is/was connected | Oct 03 04:36 |
| r_schestowitz | > to salesforce, sarah mei is leading the venom against stallman and has | Oct 03 04:36 |
| r_schestowitz | > asked entire board to step down. | Oct 03 04:36 |
| r_schestowitz | > | Oct 03 04:36 |
| r_schestowitz | > that doesnt convince me either, but its certainly interesting! i think | Oct 03 04:36 |
| r_schestowitz | > gnome is underrated in all this. so is outreachy. | Oct 03 04:36 |
| r_schestowitz | > | Oct 03 04:36 |
| r_schestowitz | > [03:45] <r_schestowitz> jgay: you need to be upfront, this breeds suspicion | Oct 03 04:36 |
| r_schestowitz | > | Oct 03 04:36 |
| r_schestowitz | > nope, i dont agree. though i would like to. and he is dishonest, though | Oct 03 04:36 |
| r_schestowitz | > i think that is a separate issue. funnily enough. | Oct 03 04:36 |
| r_schestowitz | > | Oct 03 04:36 |
| r_schestowitz | > [03:46] <kaniini> jgay: i think you guys whould be more transparent and | Oct 03 04:36 |
| r_schestowitz | > just admit that you bounced RMS out of the FSF because he was doing a | Oct 03 04:36 |
| r_schestowitz | > bad job and this perceived defense of epstein was the final straw | Oct 03 04:36 |
| r_schestowitz | > | Oct 03 04:36 |
| r_schestowitz | > thats not what rms said. i think the things jgay is calling you paranoid | Oct 03 04:36 |
| r_schestowitz | > for are more significant. why bother trying to make you think youre | Oct 03 04:36 |
| r_schestowitz | > paranoid? | Oct 03 04:36 |
| r_schestowitz | > | Oct 03 04:36 |
| r_schestowitz | > | Oct 03 04:36 |
| r_schestowitz | > [03:46] <r_schestowitz> I think Oliva dissented in the Board, it seems | Oct 03 04:36 |
| r_schestowitz | > like Oliva was that person | Oct 03 04:36 |
| r_schestowitz | > | Oct 03 04:36 |
| r_schestowitz | > i am also curious what he dissented FROM. | Oct 03 04:36 |
| r_schestowitz | > | Oct 03 04:36 |
| r_schestowitz | > | Oct 03 04:36 |
| r_schestowitz | > [03:46] <r_schestowitz> the epstein connection was bill gates | Oct 03 04:37 |
| r_schestowitz | > [03:47] <r_schestowitz> the RMS media storm did help deflect from it, | Oct 03 04:37 |
| r_schestowitz | > that's not a mere theory | Oct 03 04:37 |
| r_schestowitz | > | Oct 03 04:37 |
| r_schestowitz | > yep | Oct 03 04:37 |
| r_schestowitz | > | Oct 03 04:37 |
| r_schestowitz | > [03:47] <r_schestowitz> and you buckled | Oct 03 04:37 |
| r_schestowitz | > [03:47] <r_schestowitz> after bkuhn and gnome foundation pressure you, | Oct 03 04:37 |
| r_schestowitz | > along with others | Oct 03 04:37 |
| r_schestowitz | > | Oct 03 04:37 |
| r_schestowitz | > gnome again | Oct 03 04:37 |
| r_schestowitz | > | Oct 03 04:37 |
| r_schestowitz | > [03:48] <r_schestowitz> gnome people tried this in 2009, that was their | Oct 03 04:37 |
| r_schestowitz | > first run with "emacs virgins" etc. | Oct 03 04:37 |
| r_schestowitz | > | Oct 03 04:37 |
| r_schestowitz | > yep | Oct 03 04:37 |
| r_schestowitz | > | Oct 03 04:37 |
| r_schestowitz | > [03:48] <r_schestowitz> Yes, IBM seemed gleeful | Oct 03 04:37 |
| r_schestowitz | > | Oct 03 04:37 |
| r_schestowitz | > yep | Oct 03 04:37 |
| r_schestowitz | > | Oct 03 04:37 |
| r_schestowitz | > [03:48] <kaniini> i don't think large corporations play a role, i think | Oct 03 04:37 |
| r_schestowitz | > people were just tired of having to go play defense for RMS when FSF | Oct 03 04:37 |
| r_schestowitz | > needs new blood anyway | Oct 03 04:37 |
| r_schestowitz | > | Oct 03 04:37 |
| r_schestowitz | > but there isnt any new blood. | Oct 03 04:37 |
| r_schestowitz | > | Oct 03 04:37 |
| r_schestowitz | > who gets rid of blood when there isnt a replacement? | Oct 03 04:37 |
| r_schestowitz | > | Oct 03 04:37 |
| r_schestowitz | > [03:49] <jgay> So here is what I think the single biggest factor was. | Oct 03 04:37 |
| r_schestowitz | > The following statement "When considered with other (ancient, outdated, | Oct 03 04:37 |
| r_schestowitz | > largely resolved and improved ] reprehensible | Oct 03 04:37 |
| r_schestowitz | > comments he has published over the years, these [FAKE] incidents form a | Oct 03 04:37 |
| r_schestowitz | > pattern | Oct 03 04:37 |
| r_schestowitz | > of behavior that is incompatible with the goals of the | Oct 03 04:37 |
| r_schestowitz | > [corporate-owned/coopted ]free software | Oct 03 04:37 |
| r_schestowitz | > movement. We call for Stallman to step down from positions of leadership | Oct 03 04:37 |
| r_schestowitz | > in our | Oct 03 04:37 |
| r_schestowitz | > [03:49] <jgay> movement. | Oct 03 04:37 |
| r_schestowitz | > | Oct 03 04:37 |
| r_schestowitz | > throwing the money changers out was enough reason to ask jesus to step | Oct 03 04:38 |
| r_schestowitz | > down from christianity. this isnt the old testament anymore, and that | Oct 03 04:38 |
| r_schestowitz | > sort of behaviour should not be tolerated, even from a founder. | Oct 03 04:38 |
| r_schestowitz | > | Oct 03 04:38 |
| r_schestowitz | > | Oct 03 04:38 |
| r_schestowitz | > [03:50] <r_schestowitz> that's one Board member | Oct 03 04:38 |
| r_schestowitz | > | Oct 03 04:38 |
| r_schestowitz | > indeed | Oct 03 04:38 |
| r_schestowitz | > | Oct 03 04:38 |
| r_schestowitz | > [03:50] <jgay> Karen, Bradley, Brett Smith, Deb Nicholson. | Oct 03 04:38 |
| r_schestowitz | > | Oct 03 04:38 |
| r_schestowitz | > yeah, deb signed that libreplanet petition. so did karen. i actually | Oct 03 04:38 |
| r_schestowitz | > tried to figure out why deb did, i thought maybe (guess) because karen did. | Oct 03 04:38 |
| r_schestowitz | > | Oct 03 04:38 |
| r_schestowitz | > so this really is just some coup based on the libreplanet thing. | Oct 03 04:38 |
| r_schestowitz | > | Oct 03 04:38 |
| r_schestowitz | > this isnt a reaction to the epstein thing. | Oct 03 04:38 |
| r_schestowitz | > | Oct 03 04:38 |
| r_schestowitz | > the epstein thing is just the opportunity to implement whatever they | Oct 03 04:38 |
| r_schestowitz | > wanted from the libreplanet thing. | Oct 03 04:38 |
| r_schestowitz | > | Oct 03 04:38 |
| r_schestowitz | > cant prove it. seems most likely. and sarah mei is unconnected? shes | Oct 03 04:38 |
| r_schestowitz | > leading the cry against him. shes the loudest. sure, anything can be a | Oct 03 04:38 |
| r_schestowitz | > coincidence. she could have joined later. anybody could come second | Oct 03 04:38 |
| r_schestowitz | > rather than first. | Oct 03 04:38 |
| r_schestowitz | > | Oct 03 04:38 |
| r_schestowitz | > [03:50] <jgay> Are at the conservancy. Two former RMS assists.Three | Oct 03 04:38 |
| r_schestowitz | > former employees and ED and one board member. | Oct 03 04:38 |
| r_schestowitz | > [03:50] <kaniini> bkuhn authored it, but the rest of the board endorsed | Oct 03 04:38 |
| r_schestowitz | > it tbh | Oct 03 04:38 |
| r_schestowitz | > | Oct 03 04:38 |
| r_schestowitz | > this should be looked into | Oct 03 04:38 |
| r_schestowitz | > | Oct 03 04:38 |
| r_schestowitz | > [03:51] <kaniini> but either way, i think this is just RMS fatigue | Oct 03 04:38 |
| r_schestowitz | > | Oct 03 04:38 |
| r_schestowitz | > why dont people tired of rms just leave the fsf instead of trying to | Oct 03 04:38 |
| r_schestowitz | > cripple it? | Oct 03 04:38 |
| r_schestowitz | > | Oct 03 04:38 |
| r_schestowitz | > i mean thats what sfc is. why did moglen threaten/sue them over | Oct 03 04:38 |
| r_schestowitz | > trademark? after all this, i go from "why, moglen?" to "haha, moglen" | Oct 03 04:38 |
| r_schestowitz | > | Oct 03 04:39 |
| r_schestowitz | > | Oct 03 04:39 |
| r_schestowitz | > [03:51] <r_schestowitz> so SFC now calls the shots at FSF as well? And | Oct 03 04:39 |
| r_schestowitz | > by extension GNU? | Oct 03 04:39 |
| r_schestowitz | > [03:51] <kaniini> of course not | Oct 03 04:39 |
| r_schestowitz | > | Oct 03 04:39 |
| r_schestowitz | > no? that press release sounded pretty damned authoritative. | Oct 03 04:39 |
| r_schestowitz | > | Oct 03 04:39 |
| r_schestowitz | > | Oct 03 04:39 |
| r_schestowitz | > [03:51] <jgay> I don't think SFC calls the shots. | Oct 03 04:39 |
| r_schestowitz | > | Oct 03 04:39 |
| r_schestowitz | > yet | Oct 03 04:39 |
| r_schestowitz | > | Oct 03 04:39 |
| r_schestowitz | > I think that their | Oct 03 04:39 |
| r_schestowitz | > statement is likely the one that struck the deepst | Oct 03 04:39 |
| r_schestowitz | > | Oct 03 04:39 |
| r_schestowitz | > it presumed the most. | Oct 03 04:39 |
| r_schestowitz | > | Oct 03 04:39 |
| r_schestowitz | > [03:52] <r_schestowitz> and bkuhn told us off when we tried to hold | Oct 03 04:39 |
| r_schestowitz | > Samsung accountable for gpl violations by merely pointing that out publicly | Oct 03 04:39 |
| r_schestowitz | > [03:52] <kaniini> FSF had been failing lacklusterly in it's mission for | Oct 03 04:39 |
| r_schestowitz | > some time (almost all advancement of free software in the trenches is | Oct 03 04:39 |
| r_schestowitz | > done outside of FSF and GNU anymore) | Oct 03 04:39 |
| r_schestowitz | > | Oct 03 04:39 |
| r_schestowitz | > but it isnt advancement, its just masturbation and self-congratulation | Oct 03 04:39 |
| r_schestowitz | > | Oct 03 04:39 |
| r_schestowitz | > [03:52] <kaniini> RMS kept pissing people off with his social comments | Oct 03 04:39 |
| r_schestowitz | > | Oct 03 04:39 |
| r_schestowitz | > nothing to do with being in the way of samsung... | Oct 03 04:39 |
| r_schestowitz | > | Oct 03 04:39 |
| r_schestowitz | > | Oct 03 04:39 |
| r_schestowitz | > [03:53] <r_schestowitz> removing RMS would not fix FSF, quite the contrary | Oct 03 04:39 |
| r_schestowitz | > | Oct 03 04:39 |
| r_schestowitz | > i still think fsf needed this event. but the right way was for stallman | Oct 03 04:39 |
| r_schestowitz | > to stay on the board. if his lifelong rival gates can run microsoft from | Oct 03 04:39 |
| r_schestowitz | > the board, so can stallman while training a replacement. some | Oct 03 04:39 |
| r_schestowitz | > preparations can only be made with live on-the-job training. being rms | Oct 03 04:39 |
| r_schestowitz | > is one of them. | Oct 03 04:39 |
| r_schestowitz | > | Oct 03 04:39 |
| r_schestowitz | > if he had stepped down as president and stayed on the board, its the | Oct 03 04:39 |
| r_schestowitz | > best of both worlds. but this-- this is just a fucking disaster. who | Oct 03 04:40 |
| r_schestowitz | > benefits? we already know. | Oct 03 04:40 |
| r_schestowitz | > | Oct 03 04:40 |
| r_schestowitz | > | Oct 03 04:40 |
| r_schestowitz | > [03:53] <kaniini> eventually people are going to be tired of defending it | Oct 03 04:40 |
| r_schestowitz | > | Oct 03 04:40 |
| r_schestowitz | > what kaniini doesnt know is hes live-reenacting the beginning of the | Oct 03 04:40 |
| r_schestowitz | > open source movement. i know. im disgusted by the beginnings of open | Oct 03 04:40 |
| r_schestowitz | > source, and everything i do, i do with GREAT care not to be open source | Oct 03 04:40 |
| r_schestowitz | > ii. its no mistake that i post perens open letter on why he is resigning | Oct 03 04:40 |
| r_schestowitz | > osi one year in-- all the time. we dont need another osi. | Oct 03 04:40 |
| r_schestowitz | > | Oct 03 04:40 |
| r_schestowitz | > but what kaniini, jgay, and sfc are ALL saying-- is EXACTLY what esr | Oct 03 04:40 |
| r_schestowitz | > used to say. they are just repeating late 1990s open source rhetoric. | Oct 03 04:40 |
| r_schestowitz | > this is why we have to, professionalism and corporation, blah blah blah. | Oct 03 04:40 |
| r_schestowitz | > | Oct 03 04:40 |
| r_schestowitz | > and esr recently said he couldnt contact his "friend" when the rest of | Oct 03 04:40 |
| r_schestowitz | > us could-- right? jaron lanier was stallmans roommate, but hes no | Oct 03 04:40 |
| r_schestowitz | > friend-- does rms still call esr a friend, or does esr just say that? | Oct 03 04:40 |
| r_schestowitz | > | Oct 03 04:40 |
| r_schestowitz | > | Oct 03 04:40 |
| r_schestowitz | > [03:53] <r_schestowitz> only months ago we pointed out how dependent FSF | Oct 03 04:40 |
| r_schestowitz | > was on RMS and his image | Oct 03 04:40 |
| r_schestowitz | > [03:53] <kaniini> maybe so, maybe no | Oct 03 04:40 |
| r_schestowitz | > | Oct 03 04:40 |
| r_schestowitz | > pooh pooh and meaningless comment | Oct 03 04:40 |
| r_schestowitz | > | Oct 03 04:40 |
| r_schestowitz | > [03:53] <kaniini> i can list many people who i think could revigorize | Oct 03 04:40 |
| r_schestowitz | > FSF and move it in a new direction | Oct 03 04:40 |
| r_schestowitz | > | Oct 03 04:40 |
| r_schestowitz | > in a pinch, sure. do it, kaniini. i can tell you where each one falls | Oct 03 04:40 |
| r_schestowitz | > short of rms. | Oct 03 04:40 |
| r_schestowitz | > | Oct 03 04:40 |
| r_schestowitz | > [03:54] <jgay> Not just social comments. I mean look, I gave my all when | Oct 03 04:40 |
| r_schestowitz | > i worked at the FSF. But it wasn't but a couple years into my working | Oct 03 04:40 |
| r_schestowitz | > with RMS that I would: a) try to not introduce him to women at FSF | Oct 03 04:40 |
| r_schestowitz | > events and functoins, and b) when i did introduce him I would make sure | Oct 03 04:40 |
| r_schestowitz | > that the women understood he was probably going to ignore whatever they | Oct 03 04:40 |
| r_schestowitz | > said and | Oct 03 04:40 |
| r_schestowitz | > [03:54] <jgay> then ask them out on a date | Oct 03 04:40 |
| r_schestowitz | > [03:54] <kaniini> that too | Oct 03 04:41 |
| r_schestowitz | > [03:55] <jgay> And despite me warning them, they would still have me | Oct 03 04:41 |
| r_schestowitz | > introduce them or RMS would walk over. And sure enough, he would often | Oct 03 04:41 |
| r_schestowitz | > even ask me to go away in this super awkward way so he could ask the | Oct 03 04:41 |
| r_schestowitz | > woman if she would like to go back to his room to listen to records | Oct 03 04:41 |
| r_schestowitz | > [03:55] <r_schestowitz> he can be socially awkward, but many geeks are | Oct 03 04:41 |
| r_schestowitz | > | Oct 03 04:41 |
| r_schestowitz | > yep | Oct 03 04:41 |
| r_schestowitz | > | Oct 03 04:41 |
| r_schestowitz | > [03:55] <kaniini> my point is, the leader was increasingly ineffective | Oct 03 04:41 |
| r_schestowitz | > (because many reasons) and a social liability | Oct 03 04:41 |
| r_schestowitz | > | Oct 03 04:41 |
| r_schestowitz | > HE BUILT | Oct 03 04:41 |
| r_schestowitz | > THE ENTIRE | Oct 03 04:41 |
| r_schestowitz | > FUCKING | Oct 03 04:41 |
| r_schestowitz | > THING | Oct 03 04:41 |
| r_schestowitz | > | Oct 03 04:41 |
| r_schestowitz | > it would not exist. | Oct 03 04:41 |
| r_schestowitz | > | Oct 03 04:41 |
| r_schestowitz | > THEN OSI STOLE IT | Oct 03 04:41 |
| r_schestowitz | > MORE THAN HALF OF IT | Oct 03 04:41 |
| r_schestowitz | > PAID AND FUNDED BY THE ENEMY | Oct 03 04:41 |
| r_schestowitz | > | Oct 03 04:41 |
| r_schestowitz | > AND HE STILL KEPT FSF GOING STRONG | Oct 03 04:41 |
| r_schestowitz | > | Oct 03 04:41 |
| r_schestowitz | > and he is not successful enough? | Oct 03 04:41 |
| r_schestowitz | > | Oct 03 04:41 |
| r_schestowitz | > the main problems are fsf problems. | Oct 03 04:41 |
| r_schestowitz | > | Oct 03 04:41 |
| r_schestowitz | > i knew stallman had to step down to flush those problems out. | Oct 03 04:41 |
| r_schestowitz | > | Oct 03 04:41 |
| r_schestowitz | > but now that hes down, the problems are VERY CLEAR and what do you know? | Oct 03 04:41 |
| r_schestowitz | > | Oct 03 04:41 |
| r_schestowitz | > theyre not stallman. | Oct 03 04:41 |
| r_schestowitz | > | Oct 03 04:41 |
| r_schestowitz | > reinstate him to the board immediately. | Oct 03 04:41 |
| r_schestowitz | > | Oct 03 04:41 |
| r_schestowitz | > | Oct 03 04:41 |
| r_schestowitz | > [03:55] <kaniini> r_schestowitz: sure, but many geeks would also stop | Oct 03 04:41 |
| r_schestowitz | > undermining key initiatives | Oct 03 04:41 |
| r_schestowitz | > | Oct 03 04:42 |
| r_schestowitz | > like open source initiatives? | Oct 03 04:42 |
| r_schestowitz | > | Oct 03 04:42 |
| r_schestowitz | > maybe thats nothing, but both freud and people doing an interrogation | Oct 03 04:42 |
| r_schestowitz | > would say that was an interesting choice of words whether it leads | Oct 03 04:42 |
| r_schestowitz | > somewhere or not. | Oct 03 04:42 |
| r_schestowitz | > | Oct 03 04:42 |
| r_schestowitz | > people give stuff away all the time. | Oct 03 04:42 |
| r_schestowitz | > | Oct 03 04:42 |
| r_schestowitz | > | Oct 03 04:42 |
| r_schestowitz | > [03:56] <kaniini> the past few years of FSF has been more loss and loss | Oct 03 04:42 |
| r_schestowitz | > | Oct 03 04:42 |
| r_schestowitz | > yes. because copyright gets worse and corporations get more power over | Oct 03 04:42 |
| r_schestowitz | > floss. | Oct 03 04:42 |
| r_schestowitz | > | Oct 03 04:42 |
| r_schestowitz | > largely due to the open source initiative packaging free sw and selling | Oct 03 04:42 |
| r_schestowitz | > it off just like steve jobs used to. and swapnil, and lf. | Oct 03 04:42 |
| r_schestowitz | > | Oct 03 04:42 |
| r_schestowitz | > the fault of rms was not to stand up to those guys and assume they didnt | Oct 03 04:42 |
| r_schestowitz | > matter. | Oct 03 04:42 |
| r_schestowitz | > | Oct 03 04:42 |
| r_schestowitz | > the fault of these assholes is to APOLOGISE for those guys and take on | Oct 03 04:42 |
| r_schestowitz | > their rhetoric. | Oct 03 04:42 |
| r_schestowitz | > | Oct 03 04:42 |
| r_schestowitz | > WHO is to blame, the person who stepped down or the people still there? | Oct 03 04:42 |
| r_schestowitz | > | Oct 03 04:42 |
| r_schestowitz | > | Oct 03 04:42 |
| r_schestowitz | > | Oct 03 04:42 |
| r_schestowitz | > [03:56] <jgay> r_schestowitz it isn't awkwardness. It is that it is | Oct 03 04:42 |
| r_schestowitz | > inappropriate to do that as president of an org. he should have simply | Oct 03 04:42 |
| r_schestowitz | > chosen to own his innapropriateness and to step down from president and | Oct 03 04:42 |
| r_schestowitz | > to be supported as a gnu speaker | Oct 03 04:42 |
| r_schestowitz | > | Oct 03 04:42 |
| r_schestowitz | > i think its possible theyre making more out of this than there is. | Oct 03 04:42 |
| r_schestowitz | > | Oct 03 04:42 |
| r_schestowitz | > it fits the narrative but NOT what paull is saying. | Oct 03 04:42 |
| r_schestowitz | > | Oct 03 04:42 |
| r_schestowitz | > it fits the photo of his door, but that photo is truly fake news. | Oct 03 04:42 |
| r_schestowitz | > | Oct 03 04:42 |
| r_schestowitz | > this is all dishonest. | Oct 03 04:42 |
| r_schestowitz | > | Oct 03 04:43 |
| r_schestowitz | > | Oct 03 04:43 |
| r_schestowitz | > [03:56] <kaniini> morale at FSF has been low for a very long time lol | Oct 03 04:43 |
| r_schestowitz | > | Oct 03 04:43 |
| r_schestowitz | > so why stay? what is it about free sw that kaniini cares so much about | Oct 03 04:43 |
| r_schestowitz | > it that he would throw its founder under the bus, to replace him with-- who? | Oct 03 04:43 |
| r_schestowitz | > | Oct 03 04:43 |
| r_schestowitz | > [03:57] <kaniini> but i think FSF people should be more honest and say | Oct 03 04:43 |
| r_schestowitz | > it wasn't just because of this epstein incident | Oct 03 04:43 |
| r_schestowitz | > | Oct 03 04:43 |
| r_schestowitz | > might as well, since the epstein incident (stallmans role) was | Oct 03 04:43 |
| r_schestowitz | > completely manufactured | Oct 03 04:43 |
| r_schestowitz | > | Oct 03 04:43 |
| r_schestowitz | > 1. fire stallman (no reason) | Oct 03 04:43 |
| r_schestowitz | > 2. make up a reason (fake reason) | Oct 03 04:43 |
| r_schestowitz | > 3. | Oct 03 04:43 |
| r_schestowitz | > find a real reason (anything! 10 year old comments-- awkward | Oct 03 04:43 |
| r_schestowitz | > romance-- dont like his long hair!) | Oct 03 04:43 |
| r_schestowitz | > | Oct 03 04:43 |
| r_schestowitz | > | Oct 03 04:43 |
| r_schestowitz | > [03:57] <r_schestowitz> their lies were then leveraged by those long | Oct 03 04:43 |
| r_schestowitz | > | Oct 03 04:43 |
| r_schestowitz | > looking to dethrone RMS | Oct 03 04:43 |
| r_schestowitz | > | Oct 03 04:43 |
| r_schestowitz | > YEP! | Oct 03 04:43 |
| r_schestowitz | > | Oct 03 04:43 |
| r_schestowitz | > [03:57] <jgay> And then at libre planet, that whole "the rules don't | Oct 03 04:43 |
| r_schestowitz | > apply to me" thing was horrible | Oct 03 04:43 |
| r_schestowitz | > | Oct 03 04:43 |
| r_schestowitz | > yes, it was. horrible like what the roman consulate did (though at least | Oct 03 04:43 |
| r_schestowitz | > caesar deserved it.) | Oct 03 04:43 |
| r_schestowitz | > | Oct 03 04:43 |
| r_schestowitz | > | Oct 03 04:43 |
| r_schestowitz | > [03:57] <kaniini> basically for the past few years, everyone i know at | Oct 03 04:43 |
| r_schestowitz | > FSF has basically low key been like | Oct 03 04:43 |
| r_schestowitz | > [03:57] <kaniini> "it would be easier to do my job if RMS wasn't in the | Oct 03 04:43 |
| r_schestowitz | > picture anymore" | Oct 03 04:43 |
| r_schestowitz | > | Oct 03 04:43 |
| r_schestowitz | > | Oct 03 04:43 |
| r_schestowitz | > AND | Oct 03 04:43 |
| r_schestowitz | > | Oct 03 04:44 |
| r_schestowitz | > *THATS THE GAME!* | Oct 03 04:44 |
| r_schestowitz | > | Oct 03 04:44 |
| r_schestowitz | > thats more of a confession than an explanation. | Oct 03 04:44 |
| r_schestowitz | > | Oct 03 04:44 |
| r_schestowitz | > | Oct 03 04:44 |
| r_schestowitz | > [03:57] <r_schestowitz> kaniini: more of a Minsky incident, not Epstein | Oct 03 04:44 |
| r_schestowitz | > [03:57] <kaniini> yes, whatever | Oct 03 04:44 |
| r_schestowitz | > | Oct 03 04:44 |
| r_schestowitz | > wait hold on, hes winning... | Oct 03 04:44 |
| r_schestowitz | > | Oct 03 04:44 |
| r_schestowitz | > | Oct 03 04:44 |
| r_schestowitz | > [03:57] <r_schestowitz> the Epstein connection is BIll Gates' via MIT | Oct 03 04:44 |
| r_schestowitz | > [03:57] <kaniini> my point is | Oct 03 04:44 |
| r_schestowitz | > | Oct 03 04:44 |
| r_schestowitz | > blah blah blah | Oct 03 04:44 |
| r_schestowitz | > | Oct 03 04:44 |
| r_schestowitz | > [03:58] <kaniini> the incident was the last straw | Oct 03 04:44 |
| r_schestowitz | > | Oct 03 04:44 |
| r_schestowitz | > 1. fire stallman (this is the last straw!) | Oct 03 04:44 |
| r_schestowitz | > 2. make up a reason (appease public with fake straw!) | Oct 03 04:44 |
| r_schestowitz | > 3. | Oct 03 04:44 |
| r_schestowitz | > find a real reason (go back and think of past straw! we are going to | Oct 03 04:44 |
| r_schestowitz | > need it) | Oct 03 04:44 |
| r_schestowitz | > | Oct 03 04:44 |
| r_schestowitz | > | Oct 03 04:44 |
| r_schestowitz | > [03:58] <jgay> r_schestowitz this article covered the libre planet | Oct 03 04:44 |
| r_schestowitz | > | Oct 03 04:44 |
| r_schestowitz | > incident pretty well: | Oct 03 04:44 |
| r_schestowitz | > http://www.linux-magazine.com/Online/Blogs/Off-the-Beat-Bruce-Byfield-s-Blog/New-Guard-and-Old-Guard-clash-at-Free-Software-Foundation | Oct 03 04:44 |
| -TechBytesBot/#techbytes-www.linux-magazine.com | New Guard and Old Guard clash at Free Software... » Linux Magazine | Oct 03 04:44 | |
| r_schestowitz | > | Oct 03 04:44 |
| r_schestowitz | > yes, and josh is confessing, as kaniini just did, that this was a coup | Oct 03 04:44 |
| r_schestowitz | > by the new guard-- as is systemd. | Oct 03 04:44 |
| r_schestowitz | > | Oct 03 04:44 |
| r_schestowitz | > | Oct 03 04:44 |
| r_schestowitz | > but wait, lets ask ted to weigh in on all of this: | Oct 03 04:44 |
| r_schestowitz | > | Oct 03 04:44 |
| r_schestowitz | > | Oct 03 04:44 |
| r_schestowitz | > | Oct 03 04:44 |
| r_schestowitz | > How To Destroy Free Software | Oct 03 04:44 |
| r_schestowitz | > | Oct 03 04:45 |
| r_schestowitz | > IRC Log Edition | Oct 03 04:45 |
| r_schestowitz | > | Oct 03 04:45 |
| r_schestowitz | > Based on the book by Ted MacReilly | Oct 03 04:45 |
| r_schestowitz | > [...] | Oct 03 04:45 |
| r_schestowitz | >> As for tolerance, religions that have taught tolerance and compassion | Oct 03 04:45 |
| r_schestowitz | >> generally get culled by the others. India, Afghanistan, Malaysia, | Oct 03 04:45 |
| r_schestowitz | >> Bangladesh (I think), and others used to be Buddhist until the 1200s or | Oct 03 04:45 |
| r_schestowitz | >> so. It was kind of brought up in the second message but I digress. | Oct 03 04:45 |
| r_schestowitz | > [...] | Oct 03 04:45 |
| r_schestowitz | > | Oct 03 04:45 |
| r_schestowitz | > Indonesia was also Buddhist back in the day. Its walk-in mandala will | Oct 03 04:45 |
| r_schestowitz | > probably go the way of the Valley of the Buddhas soon: | Oct 03 04:45 |
| r_schestowitz | > | Oct 03 04:45 |
| r_schestowitz | > https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Borobudur#Security_threats | Oct 03 04:45 |
| -TechBytesBot/#techbytes-en.wikipedia.org | Borobudur - Wikipedia | Oct 03 04:45 | |
| r_schestowitz | > | Oct 03 04:45 |
| r_schestowitz | > It was more or less from there that Buddhism traveled to Tibet. | Oct 03 04:45 |
| r_schestowitz | > (with the other stuff i sent) thats the whole log | Oct 03 04:47 |
| r_schestowitz | > | Oct 03 04:47 |
| r_schestowitz | > | Oct 03 04:47 |
| r_schestowitz | > | Oct 03 04:47 |
| r_schestowitz | > | Oct 03 04:47 |
| r_schestowitz | > [03:58] <r_schestowitz> jgay: the libreplanet aaspct was covered by us | Oct 03 04:47 |
| r_schestowitz | > back in April and twice later | Oct 03 04:48 |
| r_schestowitz | > [03:59] <r_schestowitz> based on people in the know | Oct 03 04:48 |
| r_schestowitz | > | Oct 03 04:48 |
| r_schestowitz | > [03:59] <kaniini> well i think RMS should have to follow the same rules | Oct 03 04:48 |
| r_schestowitz | > everyone else follows at an event | Oct 03 04:48 |
| r_schestowitz | > | Oct 03 04:48 |
| r_schestowitz | > so do i! everybody should be held to the same standard that stallman is-- not to bullshit rules used to censor. | Oct 03 04:48 |
| r_schestowitz | > | Oct 03 04:48 |
| r_schestowitz | > [03:59] <kaniini> ;) | Oct 03 04:48 |
| r_schestowitz | > | Oct 03 04:48 |
| r_schestowitz | > fuck you, kani | Oct 03 04:48 |
| r_schestowitz | > | Oct 03 04:48 |
| r_schestowitz | > [03:59] <kaniini> but really, this all begins with Libreboot | Oct 03 04:48 |
| r_schestowitz | > | Oct 03 04:48 |
| r_schestowitz | > nope! it begins in 1998, but for those of you just joining us, leah rowe is on OUR side, not yours, motherfucker (i only found that out recently, but hey-- shes fighting on the right side at the right time. one less person that needs to be won over, one less person fighting against us.) | Oct 03 04:48 |
| r_schestowitz | > | Oct 03 04:48 |
| r_schestowitz | > [03:59] <r_schestowitz> jgay: he also pushed that "emac virgins" phony | Oct 03 04:48 |
| r_schestowitz | > scandal | Oct 03 04:48 |
| r_schestowitz | > [04:00] <r_schestowitz> last week in FossForce he went on another | Oct 03 04:48 |
| r_schestowitz | > anti-RMS rant | Oct 03 04:48 |
| r_schestowitz | > | Oct 03 04:48 |
| r_schestowitz | > well, he pretty much had to | Oct 03 04:48 |
| r_schestowitz | > | Oct 03 04:48 |
| r_schestowitz | > [04:00] <kaniini> the shitshow that was the Libreboot incident | Oct 03 04:48 |
| r_schestowitz | > | Oct 03 04:48 |
| r_schestowitz | > yeah, it was a shitshow because leah rowe was being as shitshow. but im willing to overlook that. you are twisting it to make your point-- and miss the point that THAT was ALSO bullshit. | Oct 03 04:48 |
| r_schestowitz | > | Oct 03 04:48 |
| r_schestowitz | > | Oct 03 04:48 |
| r_schestowitz | > [04:00] <kaniini> is what killed morale at FSF imo | Oct 03 04:48 |
| r_schestowitz | > | Oct 03 04:48 |
| r_schestowitz | > LIAR! elsewhere it was said that this has gone on for years. but you say its an event where leah rowe made the same dumb accusations (which she no longer makes?) | Oct 03 04:48 |
| r_schestowitz | > | Oct 03 04:48 |
| r_schestowitz | > FUCK. OFF. | Oct 03 04:48 |
| r_schestowitz | > | Oct 03 04:48 |
| r_schestowitz | > too much fucking bullshit... | Oct 03 04:48 |
| r_schestowitz | > | Oct 03 04:48 |
| r_schestowitz | > | Oct 03 04:48 |
| r_schestowitz | > [04:00] <jgay> r_schestowitz the other aspect to all of this is that RMS | Oct 03 04:48 |
| r_schestowitz | > has a level of arrogance | Oct 03 04:48 |
| r_schestowitz | > | Oct 03 04:48 |
| r_schestowitz | > OH THATS IT! | Oct 03 04:49 |
| r_schestowitz | > | Oct 03 04:49 |
| r_schestowitz | > josh-- you-- out! stay out. | Oct 03 04:49 |
| r_schestowitz | > | Oct 03 04:49 |
| r_schestowitz | > that is just beyond the pale. | Oct 03 04:49 |
| r_schestowitz | > | Oct 03 04:49 |
| r_schestowitz | > yeah, look whos talking. BY THE WAY, THANKS FOR CONFESSING. AGAIN! i had my doubts. why do you keep handing us exactly what we are looking for? | Oct 03 04:49 |
| r_schestowitz | > | Oct 03 04:49 |
| r_schestowitz | > the more i think im silly to assume, the more proof you give us, guy. | Oct 03 04:49 |
| r_schestowitz | > | Oct 03 04:49 |
| r_schestowitz | > | Oct 03 04:49 |
| r_schestowitz | >> He has teams of people, a personal assistant, and others all of whom will help him with being smart about how he communicates with the public. | Oct 03 04:49 |
| r_schestowitz | > | Oct 03 04:49 |
| r_schestowitz | > yeah, and he obviously uses them or they would be put to other uses. | Oct 03 04:49 |
| r_schestowitz | > | Oct 03 04:49 |
| r_schestowitz | > | Oct 03 04:49 |
| r_schestowitz | > | Oct 03 04:49 |
| r_schestowitz | > how and whetherto weigh in on certain kinds of topics. Etc. It takes a pretty extreme | Oct 03 04:49 |
| r_schestowitz | > [04:00] <jgay> situation for him to reach out to that network before | Oct 03 04:49 |
| r_schestowitz | > just going ahead and making a statement | Oct 03 04:49 |
| r_schestowitz | > | Oct 03 04:49 |
| r_schestowitz | > he didnt make a statement. CSAIL is not fsf. if he treated fsf people like CSAIL assistants that would be akin to fraud. | Oct 03 04:49 |
| r_schestowitz | > | Oct 03 04:49 |
| r_schestowitz | > dont fuck around, josh. youre bullshit. | Oct 03 04:49 |
| r_schestowitz | > | Oct 03 04:49 |
| r_schestowitz | > | Oct 03 04:49 |
| r_schestowitz | > [04:00] <r_schestowitz> kaniini: even Leah ow defends RMS in this latest row | Oct 03 04:49 |
| r_schestowitz | > [04:00] <r_schestowitz> *Row | Oct 03 04:49 |
| r_schestowitz | > [04:00] <r_schestowitz> *Row and Rowe | Oct 03 04:49 |
| r_schestowitz | > | Oct 03 04:49 |
| r_schestowitz | > | Oct 03 04:49 |
| r_schestowitz | > [04:00] <jgay> then when he fucks up, instead of asking for those | Oct 03 04:49 |
| r_schestowitz | > professionals around him who are good at cleaning up to help, he stands | Oct 03 04:49 |
| r_schestowitz | > his ground and defends semantics | Oct 03 04:49 |
| r_schestowitz | > | Oct 03 04:49 |
| r_schestowitz | > thats been his job for decades now. josh, why do you stay? if you hate your job, why not go somewhere that is a better fit? | Oct 03 04:49 |
| r_schestowitz | > | Oct 03 04:49 |
| r_schestowitz | > who makes it worth your while? | Oct 03 04:49 |
| r_schestowitz | > | Oct 03 04:49 |
| r_schestowitz | > | Oct 03 04:49 |
| r_schestowitz | > | Oct 03 04:50 |
| r_schestowitz | > [04:01] <r_schestowitz> jgay: he did start this movement | Oct 03 04:50 |
| r_schestowitz | > [04:01] <r_schestowitz> sometimes he asks me questions/advice also | Oct 03 04:50 |
| r_schestowitz | > | Oct 03 04:50 |
| r_schestowitz | > you dont count, roy. if rms isnt banging down the door of his FSF helpers to help with his CSAIL job, then it isnt due dilligence and its arrogant. asking OTHER people doesnt count! if it did, josh wouldnt have an argum-- oh... | Oct 03 04:50 |
| r_schestowitz | > | Oct 03 04:50 |
| r_schestowitz | > | Oct 03 04:50 |
| r_schestowitz | > | Oct 03 04:50 |
| r_schestowitz | > [04:01] <kaniini> defending minsky was honorable, but yes | Oct 03 04:50 |
| r_schestowitz | > | Oct 03 04:50 |
| r_schestowitz | > MAKE UP YOUR MIND | Oct 03 04:50 |
| r_schestowitz | > | Oct 03 04:50 |
| r_schestowitz | > | Oct 03 04:50 |
| r_schestowitz | > [04:01] <kaniini> he should have asked for help with composing his defense | Oct 03 04:50 |
| r_schestowitz | > | Oct 03 04:50 |
| r_schestowitz | > he should have known that the daily act of doing whats right would necessitate running everything by someone, because of psychic powers that made it clear he was going to be targeted by a lynch mob. | Oct 03 04:50 |
| r_schestowitz | > | Oct 03 04:50 |
| r_schestowitz | > kani doesnt live in the real world. he thinks people, on average-- are all-knowing and stallman should consult them on everything as part of his job. | Oct 03 04:50 |
| r_schestowitz | > | Oct 03 04:50 |
| r_schestowitz | > EVEN when out of the office and not on the clock! | Oct 03 04:50 |
| r_schestowitz | > | Oct 03 04:50 |
| r_schestowitz | > | Oct 03 04:50 |
| r_schestowitz | > [04:02] <kaniini> i would have started with the point that there's | Oct 03 04:50 |
| r_schestowitz | > evidence that proves minsky did not accept the offer | Oct 03 04:50 |
| r_schestowitz | > | Oct 03 04:50 |
| r_schestowitz | > alright great-- youre hired, asshole-- obviously youre more qualified, go sit in stallmans office and do his job better. | Oct 03 04:50 |
| r_schestowitz | > | Oct 03 04:50 |
| r_schestowitz | > | Oct 03 04:50 |
| r_schestowitz | > | Oct 03 04:50 |
| r_schestowitz | > [04:02] <kaniini> yes, but this isn't about the media | Oct 03 04:50 |
| r_schestowitz | > | Oct 03 04:50 |
| r_schestowitz | > HAHAHAHAHAHA | Oct 03 04:50 |
| r_schestowitz | > | Oct 03 04:50 |
| r_schestowitz | > | Oct 03 04:50 |
| r_schestowitz | > [04:03] <kaniini> it is about his allies being fatigued | Oct 03 04:50 |
| r_schestowitz | > | Oct 03 04:50 |
| r_schestowitz | > because of libreboot? thats what you said, kani. | Oct 03 04:50 |
| r_schestowitz | > | Oct 03 04:50 |
| r_schestowitz | > | Oct 03 04:50 |
| r_schestowitz | > | Oct 03 04:50 |
| r_schestowitz | > [04:03] <kaniini> sure, the media contributes to the fatigue | Oct 03 04:51 |
| r_schestowitz | > | Oct 03 04:51 |
| r_schestowitz | > so quit. dont ask the guy better than you to. | Oct 03 04:51 |
| r_schestowitz | > | Oct 03 04:51 |
| r_schestowitz | > [04:03] <kaniini> but i know many people who have had to get in front of | Oct 03 04:51 |
| r_schestowitz | > RMS and play referee | Oct 03 04:51 |
| r_schestowitz | > | Oct 03 04:51 |
| r_schestowitz | > its their job. so what? | Oct 03 04:51 |
| r_schestowitz | > | Oct 03 04:51 |
| r_schestowitz | > | Oct 03 04:51 |
| r_schestowitz | > [04:04] <kaniini> and i assure you, that contributes to the fatigue more | Oct 03 04:51 |
| r_schestowitz | > | Oct 03 04:51 |
| r_schestowitz | > so quit! | Oct 03 04:51 |
| r_schestowitz | > | Oct 03 04:51 |
| r_schestowitz | > | Oct 03 04:51 |
| r_schestowitz | > [04:04] <kaniini> was the FSF board decision to fire RMS correct? i | Oct 03 04:51 |
| r_schestowitz | > don't know | Oct 03 04:51 |
| r_schestowitz | > | Oct 03 04:51 |
| r_schestowitz | > did they? | Oct 03 04:51 |
| r_schestowitz | > | Oct 03 04:51 |
| r_schestowitz | > really, did they? | Oct 03 04:51 |
| r_schestowitz | > | Oct 03 04:51 |
| r_schestowitz | > | Oct 03 04:51 |
| r_schestowitz | > [04:04] <r_schestowitz> it seems like a flippant reaction | Oct 03 04:51 |
| r_schestowitz | > [04:04] <r_schestowitz> the fallout was big | Oct 03 04:51 |
| r_schestowitz | > [04:04] <kaniini> i don't think so | Oct 03 04:51 |
| r_schestowitz | > | Oct 03 04:51 |
| r_schestowitz | > thats because youre flippant. | Oct 03 04:51 |
| r_schestowitz | > | Oct 03 04:51 |
| r_schestowitz | > [04:05] <kaniini> as i have pointed out, morale has been low for a long time | Oct 03 04:51 |
| r_schestowitz | > | Oct 03 04:51 |
| r_schestowitz | > since libreboot. IYO. | Oct 03 04:51 |
| r_schestowitz | > | Oct 03 04:51 |
| r_schestowitz | > | Oct 03 04:51 |
| r_schestowitz | > [04:05] <r_schestowitz> kaniini: but what now? | Oct 03 04:51 |
| r_schestowitz | > [04:05] <r_schestowitz> is morale better now? | Oct 03 04:51 |
| r_schestowitz | > [04:06] <kaniini> it's too soon to tell | Oct 03 04:51 |
| r_schestowitz | > | Oct 03 04:51 |
| r_schestowitz | > LOL... | Oct 03 04:51 |
| r_schestowitz | > | Oct 03 04:51 |
| r_schestowitz | > this stupid cunt. (please quote me on that one-- kaniini is a stupid cunt.) | Oct 03 04:52 |
| r_schestowitz | > | Oct 03 04:52 |
| r_schestowitz | > i assume hes male, though i honestly dont care. anybody can be a stupid cunt if they try hard enough. | Oct 03 04:52 |
| r_schestowitz | > | Oct 03 04:52 |
| r_schestowitz | > | Oct 03 04:52 |
| r_schestowitz | > [04:06] <jgay> So look. I personaly have a lot to be thankful for from | Oct 03 04:52 |
| r_schestowitz | > RMS. He was a great mentor to me. | Oct 03 04:52 |
| r_schestowitz | > | Oct 03 04:52 |
| r_schestowitz | > didnt teach you integrity. | Oct 03 04:52 |
| r_schestowitz | > | Oct 03 04:52 |
| r_schestowitz | >> I learned so much from him that I | Oct 03 04:52 |
| r_schestowitz | > can't even begin to even understand it all myself. The world has a lot | Oct 03 04:52 |
| r_schestowitz | > to be grateful for. | Oct 03 04:52 |
| r_schestowitz | > | Oct 03 04:52 |
| r_schestowitz | > and more to be an ingrate for, i guess. | Oct 03 04:52 |
| r_schestowitz | > | Oct 03 04:52 |
| r_schestowitz | > | Oct 03 04:52 |
| r_schestowitz | >> But, he tried to have his cake and eat it to. | Oct 03 04:52 |
| r_schestowitz | > | Oct 03 04:52 |
| r_schestowitz | > funny, this argument wants the same thing. | Oct 03 04:52 |
| r_schestowitz | > | Oct 03 04:52 |
| r_schestowitz | > | Oct 03 04:52 |
| r_schestowitz | >> He | Oct 03 04:52 |
| r_schestowitz | > wanted to be able to act independently and do as he wanted and also | Oct 03 04:52 |
| r_schestowitz | > retain being the | Oct 03 04:52 |
| r_schestowitz | > [04:06] <jgay> traveling spokesperson for the FSF (sometimes 180+ | Oct 03 04:52 |
| r_schestowitz | > speaking engagements a year). But then he didn't want to work with a | Oct 03 04:52 |
| r_schestowitz | > staff or a community in fundamentally important ways. | Oct 03 04:52 |
| r_schestowitz | > | Oct 03 04:52 |
| r_schestowitz | > you know whats bullshit? the circular nature of that last part: | Oct 03 04:52 |
| r_schestowitz | > | Oct 03 04:52 |
| r_schestowitz | >> But then he didn't want to work with a | Oct 03 04:52 |
| r_schestowitz | > staff or a community in fundamentally important ways. | Oct 03 04:52 |
| r_schestowitz | > | Oct 03 04:52 |
| r_schestowitz | > prove it. thats the core of his accusation/justification-- PROVE IT. prove its not just recycled early-2000s osi blog posts, giving the linus torvald award at linuxcon. PROVE IT. | Oct 03 04:52 |
| r_schestowitz | > | Oct 03 04:52 |
| r_schestowitz | > lets have ONE PERSON who accuses stallman ACTUALLY PROVE THEIR POINT. | Oct 03 04:52 |
| r_schestowitz | > | Oct 03 04:52 |
| r_schestowitz | > or does he not deserve that? | Oct 03 04:52 |
| r_schestowitz | > | Oct 03 04:52 |
| r_schestowitz | > | Oct 03 04:53 |
| r_schestowitz | > | Oct 03 04:53 |
| r_schestowitz | > [04:06] <r_schestowitz> and it's not helped by those edits to stallman.org | Oct 03 04:53 |
| r_schestowitz | > | Oct 03 04:53 |
| r_schestowitz | > no shit | Oct 03 04:53 |
| r_schestowitz | > | Oct 03 04:53 |
| r_schestowitz | > [04:06] <kaniini> if FSF capitalizes on the opportunity and refreshes | Oct 03 04:53 |
| r_schestowitz | > the FSF board with current generation of FOSS leaders and resolve this | Oct 03 04:53 |
| r_schestowitz | > RMS situation | Oct 03 04:53 |
| r_schestowitz | > | Oct 03 04:53 |
| r_schestowitz | > thats what red hat said-- seize the opportunity | Oct 03 04:53 |
| r_schestowitz | > | Oct 03 04:53 |
| r_schestowitz | > [04:06] <kaniini> then yes | Oct 03 04:53 |
| r_schestowitz | > [04:07] <kaniini> i think FSF could rise from the ashes | Oct 03 04:53 |
| r_schestowitz | > [04:07] <kaniini> if not, then FSF will continue on it's path of irrelevancy | Oct 03 04:53 |
| r_schestowitz | > | Oct 03 04:53 |
| r_schestowitz | > this flippant, cocky, and apathetic (unaccountable) motherfucker. | Oct 03 04:53 |
| r_schestowitz | > | Oct 03 04:53 |
| r_schestowitz | > | Oct 03 04:53 |
| r_schestowitz | > [04:07] <r_schestowitz> jgay: at least make some statement about the RMS | Oct 03 04:53 |
| r_schestowitz | > situation | Oct 03 04:53 |
| r_schestowitz | > [04:07] <r_schestowitz> make it look less toxic | Oct 03 04:53 |
| r_schestowitz | > | Oct 03 04:53 |
| r_schestowitz | > nope, it is toxic. | Oct 03 04:53 |
| r_schestowitz | > | Oct 03 04:53 |
| r_schestowitz | > | Oct 03 04:53 |
| r_schestowitz | > [04:07] <kaniini> and as jgay points out, when you are the spokesman for | Oct 03 04:53 |
| r_schestowitz | > an organization, you need to clear things with your people | Oct 03 04:53 |
| r_schestowitz | > | Oct 03 04:53 |
| r_schestowitz | > hes wrong. you cant use your paid FSF interns to approve your CSAIL posts, to follow you into the bathroom before you flush, or to pre-chew all your lunches. | Oct 03 04:53 |
| r_schestowitz | > | Oct 03 04:53 |
| r_schestowitz | > | Oct 03 04:53 |
| r_schestowitz | > [04:08] <kaniini> i agree there, there should have been a negotiated exit | Oct 03 04:53 |
| r_schestowitz | > [04:08] <kaniini> instead of just firing him and being like "you can | Oct 03 04:53 |
| r_schestowitz | > either resign or we will publicly fire you" | Oct 03 04:53 |
| r_schestowitz | > | Oct 03 04:53 |
| r_schestowitz | > did that happen? | Oct 03 04:53 |
| r_schestowitz | > | Oct 03 04:53 |
| r_schestowitz | > | Oct 03 04:53 |
| r_schestowitz | > [04:09] <jgay> r_schestowitz the RMS situation with the FSF? The | Oct 03 04:53 |
| r_schestowitz | > situation was that in early 2000s the staff felt that the best way to | Oct 03 04:54 |
| r_schestowitz | > protect themselves from RMS was to join the UAW and unionize the FSF so | Oct 03 04:54 |
| r_schestowitz | > that there could be some checks and balance against RMS and his small | Oct 03 04:54 |
| r_schestowitz | > self-selected do more or less whatever he said board of directors | Oct 03 04:54 |
| r_schestowitz | > | Oct 03 04:54 |
| r_schestowitz | > whoever approved that plan would try to sandbag the ocean. lots of luck. | Oct 03 04:54 |
| r_schestowitz | > | Oct 03 04:54 |
| r_schestowitz | > | Oct 03 04:54 |
| r_schestowitz | > [04:09] <r_schestowitz> I get private messages suggesting there's a | Oct 03 04:54 |
| r_schestowitz | > split of RMS 'loyalists' and the 'others' | Oct 03 04:54 |
| r_schestowitz | > | Oct 03 04:54 |
| r_schestowitz | > its everywhere you look | Oct 03 04:54 |
| r_schestowitz | > | Oct 03 04:54 |
| r_schestowitz | > [04:09] <r_schestowitz> and they want a bridge, it needs mending | Oct 03 04:54 |
| r_schestowitz | > [04:09] <kaniini> jgay: :D | Oct 03 04:54 |
| r_schestowitz | > | Oct 03 04:54 |
| r_schestowitz | > what are you smiling at, dipshit? that smile most likely says more than most people would think it says. | Oct 03 04:54 |
| r_schestowitz | > | Oct 03 04:54 |
| r_schestowitz | > there are other (less likely) possibilities. | Oct 03 04:54 |
| r_schestowitz | > | Oct 03 04:54 |
| r_schestowitz | > | Oct 03 04:54 |
| r_schestowitz | > | Oct 03 04:54 |
| r_schestowitz | > [04:10] <kaniini> yeah there's a split, but it's like 20% loyalists vs | Oct 03 04:54 |
| r_schestowitz | > 80% everyone else | Oct 03 04:54 |
| r_schestowitz | > | Oct 03 04:54 |
| r_schestowitz | > this says a whole lot too. for someone who knows about p.r. supposedly, he sure doesnt know how to keep his real intentions to himself. | Oct 03 04:54 |
| r_schestowitz | > | Oct 03 04:54 |
| r_schestowitz | > | Oct 03 04:54 |
| r_schestowitz | > | Oct 03 04:54 |
| r_schestowitz | > [04:10] <jgay> The FSF needs to do some serious work on improving | Oct 03 04:54 |
| r_schestowitz | > itself. Understanding the decisions it made in the past. And deciding if | Oct 03 04:54 |
| r_schestowitz | > they should maybe make some different choices going forward. | Oct 03 04:54 |
| r_schestowitz | > | Oct 03 04:54 |
| r_schestowitz | > like? | Oct 03 04:54 |
| r_schestowitz | > | Oct 03 04:54 |
| r_schestowitz | > [04:10] <jgay> I made some thoughtful suggestions to them shortly after | Oct 03 04:54 |
| r_schestowitz | > RMS resigned | Oct 03 04:54 |
| r_schestowitz | > | Oct 03 04:54 |
| r_schestowitz | > ive emailed you about those. | Oct 03 04:54 |
| r_schestowitz | > | Oct 03 04:54 |
| r_schestowitz | > basically he wants to turn the fsf into the lf. | Oct 03 04:55 |
| r_schestowitz | > | Oct 03 04:55 |
| r_schestowitz | > real thoughtful, dipshit. | Oct 03 04:55 |
| r_schestowitz | > | Oct 03 04:55 |
| r_schestowitz | > | Oct 03 04:55 |
| r_schestowitz | > [04:10] <r_schestowitz> kaniini: 80% of general techies or free s/w devs? | Oct 03 04:55 |
| r_schestowitz | > [04:10] <kaniini> i'm talking about inside FSF | Oct 03 04:55 |
| r_schestowitz | > [04:11] <r_schestowitz> ah, ok | Oct 03 04:55 |
| r_schestowitz | > | Oct 03 04:55 |
| r_schestowitz | > "80% of people disagree with me" | Oct 03 04:55 |
| r_schestowitz | > | Oct 03 04:55 |
| r_schestowitz | > "what about the others?" | Oct 03 04:55 |
| r_schestowitz | > | Oct 03 04:55 |
| r_schestowitz | > "fuck em!" | Oct 03 04:55 |
| r_schestowitz | > | Oct 03 04:55 |
| r_schestowitz | > | Oct 03 04:55 |
| r_schestowitz | > | Oct 03 04:55 |
| r_schestowitz | > | Oct 03 04:55 |
| r_schestowitz | > [04:12] <kaniini> r_schestowitz: if somebody is so fragile that the | Oct 03 04:55 |
| r_schestowitz | > words "code of conduct" trigger them, they don't need to be involved anyway | Oct 03 04:55 |
| r_schestowitz | > | Oct 03 04:55 |
| r_schestowitz | > s/code\ of\ conduct/witchhunt/ | Oct 03 04:55 |
| r_schestowitz | > | Oct 03 04:55 |
| r_schestowitz | > [04:12] <kaniini> r_schestowitz: if somebody is so fragile that the | Oct 03 04:55 |
| r_schestowitz | > words "witchhunt" trigger them, they don't need to be involved anyway | Oct 03 04:55 |
| r_schestowitz | > | Oct 03 04:55 |
| r_schestowitz | > | Oct 03 04:55 |
| r_schestowitz | > | Oct 03 04:55 |
| r_schestowitz | > | Oct 03 04:55 |
| r_schestowitz | > [04:13] <jgay> When the FSF decided to launch an associate membership | Oct 03 04:55 |
| r_schestowitz | > program under Bradley Kuhn, the idea was that they could not launch a | Oct 03 04:55 |
| r_schestowitz | > membership program, because that might imply that members could have a | Oct 03 04:55 |
| r_schestowitz | > possible say in governance or some significant influence on the org. | Oct 03 04:55 |
| r_schestowitz | > They didn't want this at the time. So they made sure to emphasize it was an | Oct 03 04:55 |
| r_schestowitz | > [04:13] <jgay> "associate" membership only | Oct 03 04:55 |
| r_schestowitz | > [04:13] <jgay> (I think wayback machine has some FAQ info about that | Oct 03 04:55 |
| r_schestowitz | > clarification) | Oct 03 04:55 |
| r_schestowitz | > | Oct 03 04:55 |
| r_schestowitz | > this supports what ive always said about the fsf not listening. very useful. someday i bet you will make this irc log public, that should be fun. | Oct 03 04:55 |
| r_schestowitz | > | Oct 03 04:55 |
| r_schestowitz | > | Oct 03 04:56 |
| r_schestowitz | > [04:14] <kaniini> i agree with jgay's twitter thread btw | Oct 03 04:56 |
| r_schestowitz | > | Oct 03 04:56 |
| r_schestowitz | > make the fsf into the linux foundation? ok. | Oct 03 04:56 |
| r_schestowitz | > | Oct 03 04:56 |
| r_schestowitz | > | Oct 03 04:56 |
| r_schestowitz | > | Oct 03 04:56 |
| r_schestowitz | > [04:14] <r_schestowitz> I RTd it minutes ago | Oct 03 04:56 |
| r_schestowitz | > [04:14] <kaniini> that is basically what i have suggested to FSF people | Oct 03 04:56 |
| r_schestowitz | > that remain who have asked my opinion on "well, what now?" | Oct 03 04:56 |
| r_schestowitz | > | Oct 03 04:56 |
| r_schestowitz | > [04:15] <jgay> IEEE has 420,000+ members worldwide and a code of ethics | Oct 03 04:56 |
| r_schestowitz | > going back almost 100 years, which you can read about in the IEEE | Oct 03 04:56 |
| r_schestowitz | > History Center wiki: | Oct 03 04:56 |
| r_schestowitz | > | Oct 03 04:56 |
| r_schestowitz | > yeah and IEEE is not commercially elitist or corporate-whorish at all... its a real grassroots organisation working for freedom (for suuuuuure) | Oct 03 04:56 |
| r_schestowitz | > | Oct 03 04:56 |
| r_schestowitz | > https://ethw.org/IEEE_Ethics_History_Repository_(IEHR) | Oct 03 04:56 |
| r_schestowitz | > | Oct 03 04:56 |
| -TechBytesBot/#techbytes-ethw.org | IEEE Ethics History Repository (IEHR) - Engineering and Technology History Wiki | Oct 03 04:56 | |
| r_schestowitz | > besides ethics != conduct guys... using those interchangeably only goes so far | Oct 03 04:56 |
| r_schestowitz | > | Oct 03 04:56 |
| r_schestowitz | > | Oct 03 04:56 |
| r_schestowitz | > [04:15] <kaniini> "hi $woman, i want to go out with you, if you don't | Oct 03 04:56 |
| r_schestowitz | > agree i am going to harm myself" | Oct 03 04:56 |
| r_schestowitz | > | Oct 03 04:56 |
| r_schestowitz | > wife pulled the same thing during divorce, AFTER giving my the cold shoulder for days, weeks or months-- finally said i was leaving, thats when she got all "if you don't agree i am going to harm myself" | Oct 03 04:56 |
| r_schestowitz | > | Oct 03 04:56 |
| r_schestowitz | > s/woman/significantother #equality | Oct 03 04:56 |
| r_schestowitz | > | Oct 03 04:56 |
| r_schestowitz | > [04:16] <r_schestowitz> They've weaponised it to prop up their devs of | Oct 03 04:56 |
| r_schestowitz | > commercial interests | Oct 03 04:56 |
| r_schestowitz | > [04:16] <kaniini> sure | Oct 03 04:56 |
| r_schestowitz | > [04:16] <kaniini> but | Oct 03 04:56 |
| r_schestowitz | > | Oct 03 04:56 |
| r_schestowitz | > [04:16] <jgay> IEEE also has a 24/7 support line you can call if you | Oct 03 04:56 |
| r_schestowitz | > feel that another member has violated the code of ethics, conduct, or | Oct 03 04:56 |
| r_schestowitz | > has retaliated against you for whistleblowing | Oct 03 04:56 |
| r_schestowitz | > | Oct 03 04:56 |
| r_schestowitz | > IEEE also can afford shitloads of lawyers to handle shit. fsf has lots of people doing pro bono, im sure they will all volunteer to get involved in thoughtpolicing and free babysitting. | Oct 03 04:56 |
| r_schestowitz | > | Oct 03 04:56 |
| r_schestowitz | > | Oct 03 04:57 |
| r_schestowitz | > | Oct 03 04:57 |
| r_schestowitz | > [04:16] <kaniini> if CoC did not exist | Oct 03 04:57 |
| r_schestowitz | > [04:16] <kaniini> they would yell anyway | Oct 03 04:57 |
| r_schestowitz | > | Oct 03 04:57 |
| r_schestowitz | > ohh, backpedaling and elephant whistles. | Oct 03 04:57 |
| r_schestowitz | > | Oct 03 04:57 |
| r_schestowitz | > | Oct 03 04:57 |
| r_schestowitz | > | Oct 03 04:57 |
| r_schestowitz | > [04:16] <jgay> it is run by an independent agency | Oct 03 04:57 |
| r_schestowitz | > | Oct 03 04:57 |
| r_schestowitz | > ...lets just divert 50% of budget to this. thats practical. nothing is more important than being like the ieee, or competing with ieee on their own turf, because trumped up charges of not caring about equality. | Oct 03 04:57 |
| r_schestowitz | > | Oct 03 04:57 |
| r_schestowitz | > | Oct 03 04:57 |
| r_schestowitz | > [04:16] <r_schestowitz> I don't trust IEEE | Oct 03 04:57 |
| r_schestowitz | > [04:17] <r_schestowitz> I noticed you use their domain for Email | Oct 03 04:57 |
| r_schestowitz | > | Oct 03 04:57 |
| r_schestowitz | > lol | Oct 03 04:57 |
| r_schestowitz | > | Oct 03 04:57 |
| r_schestowitz | > [04:17] <kaniini> i think IEEE has some problems too | Oct 03 04:57 |
| r_schestowitz | > | Oct 03 04:57 |
| r_schestowitz | > "we arent perfect. sometimes we slaughter millions, although that was a mistake we are working to improve upon..." | Oct 03 04:57 |
| r_schestowitz | > | Oct 03 04:57 |
| r_schestowitz | > | Oct 03 04:57 |
| r_schestowitz | > [04:17] <r_schestowitz> They're very pro swpats and proprietary | Oct 03 04:57 |
| r_schestowitz | > software, close to Microsoft also, | Oct 03 04:57 |
| r_schestowitz | > | Oct 03 04:57 |
| r_schestowitz | > whats to like? | Oct 03 04:57 |
| r_schestowitz | > | Oct 03 04:57 |
| r_schestowitz | > | Oct 03 04:57 |
| r_schestowitz | > yes but back to the point, roy! | Oct 03 04:57 |
| r_schestowitz | > [04:17] <jgay> The best page with code of ethics, code of conduct, | Oct 03 04:57 |
| r_schestowitz | > helpline, etc. all linked to is this one: | Oct 03 04:57 |
| r_schestowitz | > | Oct 03 04:57 |
| r_schestowitz | > | Oct 03 04:57 |
| r_schestowitz | > | Oct 03 04:57 |
| r_schestowitz | > [04:17] <oiaohm> Really things are kind of different since the cases | Oct 03 04:57 |
| r_schestowitz | > that have happened with catholic church and Harvey Weinstein cases. | Oct 03 04:57 |
| r_schestowitz | > | Oct 03 04:57 |
| r_schestowitz | > yes, its no longer safe to take up a job in acting. | Oct 03 04:57 |
| r_schestowitz | > | Oct 03 04:58 |
| r_schestowitz | > | Oct 03 04:58 |
| r_schestowitz | > [04:17] <kaniini> for example, i will not join IEEE because of their | Oct 03 04:58 |
| r_schestowitz | > software patent stance and the fact that they do not allow people to use | Oct 03 04:58 |
| r_schestowitz | > common law aliases on their membership | Oct 03 04:58 |
| r_schestowitz | > [04:18] <jgay> r_schestowitz I am an employee of the IEEE standards | Oct 03 04:58 |
| r_schestowitz | > association | Oct 03 04:58 |
| r_schestowitz | > | Oct 03 04:58 |
| r_schestowitz | > LOL | Oct 03 04:58 |
| r_schestowitz | > | Oct 03 04:58 |
| r_schestowitz | > [04:18] <oiaohm> Particular with people in management positions being | Oct 03 04:58 |
| r_schestowitz | > held to account for not dealing with sexual issues correctly. | Oct 03 04:58 |
| r_schestowitz | > [04:18] <kaniini> i could afford to change my name | Oct 03 04:58 |
| r_schestowitz | > [04:18] <oiaohm> RMS has kind of been caught in that. | Oct 03 04:58 |
| r_schestowitz | > | Oct 03 04:58 |
| r_schestowitz | > yes, caught red-handed in the act of being misquoted and having evidence planted. he has a point. | Oct 03 04:58 |
| r_schestowitz | > | Oct 03 04:58 |
| r_schestowitz | > | Oct 03 04:58 |
| r_schestowitz | > [04:18] <jgay> The IEEE hired me as their first hire to help them learn | Oct 03 04:58 |
| r_schestowitz | > about and implement and support open source | Oct 03 04:58 |
| r_schestowitz | > | Oct 03 04:58 |
| r_schestowitz | > you said "free software" wrong... | Oct 03 04:58 |
| r_schestowitz | > | Oct 03 04:58 |
| r_schestowitz | > | Oct 03 04:58 |
| r_schestowitz | > [04:18] <kaniini> oiaohm: and people were like "fuck it, i can't defend | Oct 03 04:58 |
| r_schestowitz | > him anymore" | Oct 03 04:58 |
| r_schestowitz | > | Oct 03 04:58 |
| r_schestowitz | > yeah those misquotes and dishonest smears all over the media were just too much for people to take | Oct 03 04:58 |
| r_schestowitz | > | Oct 03 04:58 |
| r_schestowitz | > | Oct 03 04:58 |
| r_schestowitz | > | Oct 03 04:58 |
| r_schestowitz | > [04:20] <jgay> Progress is slow and steady. The main challenge with | Oct 03 04:58 |
| r_schestowitz | > making a big change at IEEE is that it *is* a membership org. | Oct 03 04:58 |
| r_schestowitz | > | Oct 03 04:58 |
| r_schestowitz | > of corporations... | Oct 03 04:58 |
| r_schestowitz | > | Oct 03 04:58 |
| r_schestowitz | > [04:20] <oiaohm> There has been a lot of management people fired in the | Oct 03 04:58 |
| r_schestowitz | > last few years. RMS is about the highest profile one. Due to | Oct 03 04:58 |
| r_schestowitz | > companies wake-up these laws are serous. | Oct 03 04:58 |
| r_schestowitz | > | Oct 03 04:58 |
| r_schestowitz | > perhaps the laws are unconstitutional (in more ways than one) | Oct 03 04:59 |
| r_schestowitz | > | Oct 03 04:59 |
| r_schestowitz | > [04:21] <oiaohm> jgay: FRAND in fact breaches the Apache 2.0 patent promise. | Oct 03 04:59 |
| r_schestowitz | > [04:21] <oiaohm> jgay: you will see FRAND with MIT licensed stuff a lot. | Oct 03 04:59 |
| r_schestowitz | > | Oct 03 04:59 |
| r_schestowitz | > good to know. | Oct 03 04:59 |
| r_schestowitz | > | Oct 03 04:59 |
| r_schestowitz | > | Oct 03 04:59 |
| r_schestowitz | > | Oct 03 04:59 |
| r_schestowitz | > [04:23] <jgay> offer a free royalty license to all. Because free grant | Oct 03 04:59 |
| r_schestowitz | > is also a FRAND grant. | Oct 03 04:59 |
| r_schestowitz | > [04:23] <r_schestowitz> This is the type of thing FSF should publicly | Oct 03 04:59 |
| r_schestowitz | > battle against | Oct 03 04:59 |
| r_schestowitz | > | Oct 03 04:59 |
| r_schestowitz | > | Oct 03 04:59 |
| r_schestowitz | > [04:25] <kaniini> i wonder which disgruntled sysadmin keeps editing | Oct 03 04:59 |
| r_schestowitz | > stallman.org | Oct 03 04:59 |
| r_schestowitz | > | Oct 03 04:59 |
| r_schestowitz | > [04:26] <kaniini> jgay: i remember stallman.org being hosted at FSF as | Oct 03 04:59 |
| r_schestowitz | > recent as a few years ago. when did stallman.org move to positive internet? | Oct 03 04:59 |
| r_schestowitz | > | Oct 03 04:59 |
| r_schestowitz | > [04:29] <jgay> Since the project has its roots back to the 1980s, it | Oct 03 04:59 |
| r_schestowitz | > took a lot of work for us to get all the permissions needed to release | Oct 03 04:59 |
| r_schestowitz | > the code under apache 2.0. I ended-up having to dig into things like BSD | Oct 03 04:59 |
| r_schestowitz | > code base in from early the 1990s to show that the version they were | Oct 03 04:59 |
| r_schestowitz | > using was an exact match to the upstream (at the time) and then show | Oct 03 04:59 |
| r_schestowitz | > that because | Oct 03 04:59 |
| r_schestowitz | > | Oct 03 04:59 |
| r_schestowitz | > [04:29] <jgay> of this the BSD 4 clause could be changed to the 3 clause | Oct 03 04:59 |
| r_schestowitz | > (because that is what the regents of berkeley said could be done at a | Oct 03 04:59 |
| r_schestowitz | > later point in time), etc. | Oct 03 04:59 |
| r_schestowitz | > | Oct 03 04:59 |
| r_schestowitz | > | Oct 03 04:59 |
| r_schestowitz | > | Oct 03 04:59 |
| r_schestowitz | > [04:32] <r_schestowitz> (apparently that's the 'thing' now, getting | Oct 03 04:59 |
| r_schestowitz | > geeks to solve bugs on a voluntary basis for so-called 'Big tech') | Oct 03 04:59 |
| r_schestowitz | > | Oct 03 04:59 |
| r_schestowitz | > yep | Oct 03 04:59 |
| r_schestowitz | > | Oct 03 04:59 |
| r_schestowitz | > | Oct 03 04:59 |
| r_schestowitz | > | Oct 03 05:00 |
| r_schestowitz | > [04:34] <r_schestowitz> BTW, FSF never expressed its views on LF | Oct 03 05:00 |
| r_schestowitz | > | Oct 03 05:00 |
| r_schestowitz | > jgay just did. | Oct 03 05:00 |
| r_schestowitz | > | Oct 03 05:00 |
| r_schestowitz | > | Oct 03 05:00 |
| r_schestowitz | > | Oct 03 05:00 |
| r_schestowitz | > [04:35] <r_schestowitz> it's pretty clear in the past 12 months what LF | Oct 03 05:00 |
| r_schestowitz | > had become, to the point it sent away Torvalds for a while | Oct 03 05:00 |
| r_schestowitz | > | Oct 03 05:00 |
| r_schestowitz | > #removetorvalds | Oct 03 05:00 |
| r_schestowitz | > | Oct 03 05:00 |
| r_schestowitz | > | Oct 03 05:00 |
| r_schestowitz | > [04:35] <jgay> I mean, LF is a business association. If I donate to the | Oct 03 05:00 |
| r_schestowitz | > LF, i can't write it off as a tax deduction because as a nonprofit, | Oct 03 05:00 |
| r_schestowitz | > their first cusotmer is the the public. | Oct 03 05:00 |
| r_schestowitz | > | Oct 03 05:00 |
| r_schestowitz | > what? oh, they must be a 501c that isnt the same as fsf (there are several, fsf is 501c3) | Oct 03 05:00 |
| r_schestowitz | > | Oct 03 05:00 |
| r_schestowitz | > [04:36] <jgay> It is what it is in that sense. They serve their business | Oct 03 05:00 |
| r_schestowitz | > association members first and comply with 501(c)6 nonprofit status. They | Oct 03 05:00 |
| r_schestowitz | > aren't a public charity like IEEE which is 501(c)3 | Oct 03 05:00 |
| r_schestowitz | > | Oct 03 05:00 |
| r_schestowitz | > got it. | Oct 03 05:00 |
| r_schestowitz | > | Oct 03 05:00 |
| r_schestowitz | > | Oct 03 05:00 |
| r_schestowitz | > [04:37] <r_schestowitz> FSF needs to confront these things IMHO, not | Oct 03 05:00 |
| r_schestowitz | > because they're corporate but because what they do is morally problematic | Oct 03 05:00 |
| r_schestowitz | > [04:37] <r_schestowitz> LF even "sells tweets" now | Oct 03 05:00 |
| r_schestowitz | > [04:37] <jgay> r_schestowitz the IEEE is a 501(c)3 and serves the public | Oct 03 05:00 |
| r_schestowitz | > first and not its corporate members. And it's corporate members are | Oct 03 05:00 |
| r_schestowitz | > capped. Our board hasn't raised coprorate member rates in a long time | Oct 03 05:00 |
| r_schestowitz | > | Oct 03 05:00 |
| r_schestowitz | > sounds legit (literally, not a funny meme) | Oct 03 05:00 |
| r_schestowitz | > | Oct 03 05:00 |
| r_schestowitz | > | Oct 03 05:00 |
| r_schestowitz | > | Oct 03 05:00 |
| r_schestowitz | > [04:42] <r_schestowitz> it takes up time and energy for baby steps | Oct 03 05:00 |
| r_schestowitz | > [04:42] <r_schestowitz> they already have their phony 'open source' groups | Oct 03 05:00 |
| r_schestowitz | > [04:42] <r_schestowitz> to pretend they participate in "open" | Oct 03 05:00 |
| r_schestowitz | > [04:43] <r_schestowitz> days ago I discovered some new "open source" JS | Oct 03 05:01 |
| r_schestowitz | > "foundation" appointing someone from Microsoft as head | Oct 03 05:01 |
| r_schestowitz | > [04:43] <r_schestowitz> we need to tackle this openwashing, the | Oct 03 05:01 |
| r_schestowitz | > hijacking of narratives | Oct 03 05:01 |
| r_schestowitz | > [04:43] <r_schestowitz> they play dirty, we can't play passively | Oct 03 05:01 |
| r_schestowitz | > | Oct 03 05:01 |
| r_schestowitz | > what does he say to this? | Oct 03 05:01 |
| r_schestowitz | > | Oct 03 05:01 |
| r_schestowitz | > | Oct 03 05:01 |
| r_schestowitz | > [04:43] <jgay> r_schestowitz there isn't an inside really. To make | Oct 03 05:01 |
| r_schestowitz | > significant change at the IEEE you need to get buyin and support from | Oct 03 05:01 |
| r_schestowitz | > the members and because most members positions on a given high level | Oct 03 05:01 |
| r_schestowitz | > board are capped in different ways, you need to have pretty widespread | Oct 03 05:01 |
| r_schestowitz | > support to get somethign accomplished and getting it done usually gets | Oct 03 05:01 |
| r_schestowitz | > dragged out | Oct 03 05:01 |
| r_schestowitz | > | Oct 03 05:01 |
| r_schestowitz | > so he ignored it and kept on | Oct 03 05:01 |
| r_schestowitz | > | Oct 03 05:01 |
| r_schestowitz | > | Oct 03 05:01 |
| r_schestowitz | > | Oct 03 05:01 |
| r_schestowitz | > [04:45] <jgay> r_schestowitz I don't think you can really accuse IEEE of | Oct 03 05:01 |
| r_schestowitz | > open washing. I mean, I'm *sure* you can find instances of it if you | Oct 03 05:01 |
| r_schestowitz | > look. But, not some serious open washing strategy that you see coming | Oct 03 05:01 |
| r_schestowitz | > from a high level | Oct 03 05:01 |
| r_schestowitz | > [04:45] <r_schestowitz> | Oct 03 05:01 |
| r_schestowitz | > http://techrights.org/2010/06/30/ieee-for-swpats-monopoly/ | Oct 03 05:01 |
| r_schestowitz | > | Oct 03 05:01 |
| -TechBytesBot/#techbytes-techrights.org | IEEE Hates Software Freedom, Now Makes it More Official | Techrights | Oct 03 05:01 | |
| r_schestowitz | > | Oct 03 05:01 |
| r_schestowitz | > that depends. i OSI 501c3 or 501c6? | Oct 03 05:01 |
| r_schestowitz | > | Oct 03 05:01 |
| r_schestowitz | > if its NOT 501c3 they have A LOT OF EXPLAINING about their claims about the fsf to do | Oct 03 05:01 |
| r_schestowitz | > | Oct 03 05:01 |
| r_schestowitz | > | Oct 03 05:01 |
| r_schestowitz | > | Oct 03 05:01 |
| r_schestowitz | > | Oct 03 05:01 |
| r_schestowitz | > [04:51] <jgay> r_schestowitz I am not sure we will ever see a rejection | Oct 03 05:01 |
| r_schestowitz | > of proprietary osftware or patents in the IEEE Code of Ethics. I do | Oct 03 05:01 |
| r_schestowitz | > think that you will see real and significant support of open source in | Oct 03 05:01 |
| r_schestowitz | > varoius parts of the IEEE in the coming months and years. | Oct 03 05:01 |
| r_schestowitz | > | Oct 03 05:01 |
| r_schestowitz | > by then it will be meaningless. perhaps thats a pre-req. perhaps that implies a lot. | Oct 03 05:02 |
| r_schestowitz | > | Oct 03 05:02 |
| r_schestowitz | > | Oct 03 05:02 |
| r_schestowitz | > | Oct 03 05:02 |
| r_schestowitz | > | Oct 03 05:02 |
| r_schestowitz | > [04:56] <r_schestowitz> jgay: IEEE seems to have 'stolen' FSF time | Oct 03 05:02 |
| r_schestowitz | > | Oct 03 05:02 |
| r_schestowitz | > man youre patient with this guy. i suppose his knowledge is useful even if he is a dick. | Oct 03 05:02 |
| r_schestowitz | > | Oct 03 05:02 |
| r_schestowitz | > hey! how about that? | Oct 03 05:02 |
| r_schestowitz | > | Oct 03 05:02 |
| r_schestowitz | > | Oct 03 05:02 |
| r_schestowitz | > | Oct 03 05:02 |
| r_schestowitz | > | Oct 03 05:02 |
| r_schestowitz | > | Oct 03 05:02 |
| r_schestowitz | > | Oct 03 05:02 |
| r_schestowitz | > [05:10] <jgay> r_schestowitz it is easy to expound and wail at the "the | Oct 03 05:02 |
| r_schestowitz | > man". It is harder to get others to join in multi year strategies that | Oct 03 05:02 |
| r_schestowitz | > are centered around building meaningful alliances with global | Oct 03 05:02 |
| r_schestowitz | > institutions of power or to work at getting a seat at the table. | Oct 03 05:02 |
| r_schestowitz | > | Oct 03 05:02 |
| r_schestowitz | > hes right about the first half. | Oct 03 05:02 |
| r_schestowitz | > | Oct 03 05:02 |
| r_schestowitz | > | Oct 03 05:02 |
| r_schestowitz | > [05:10] <jgay> For the most part, the strategy free software activists | Oct 03 05:02 |
| r_schestowitz | > take when engaging in such dialogues is to just reject everything that | Oct 03 05:02 |
| r_schestowitz | > falls short before they have even gotten to the table and thus never get | Oct 03 05:02 |
| r_schestowitz | > a seat at the table to begin with. | Oct 03 05:02 |
| r_schestowitz | > | Oct 03 05:02 |
| r_schestowitz | > hes mostly right about that, but it doesnt mean exactly what he thinks it does. he still thinks success is love from big corporations. | Oct 03 05:02 |
| r_schestowitz | > | Oct 03 05:02 |
| r_schestowitz | > thats a side thing, not the goal. hes got the wrong goal, but for his desired outcome his way makes perfect sense. | Oct 03 05:02 |
| r_schestowitz | > | Oct 03 05:02 |
| r_schestowitz | > for our desired outcome, it makes more than none, but much less. | Oct 03 05:02 |
| r_schestowitz | > | Oct 03 05:02 |
| r_schestowitz | > | Oct 03 05:02 |
| r_schestowitz | > | Oct 03 05:02 |
| r_schestowitz | > | Oct 03 05:02 |
| r_schestowitz | > | Oct 03 05:02 |
| r_schestowitz | > | Oct 03 05:02 |
| r_schestowitz | > | Oct 03 05:03 |
| r_schestowitz | > [05:14] <r_schestowitz> FSFE just gave up | Oct 03 05:03 |
| r_schestowitz | > [05:15] <r_schestowitz> and many people agree with me | Oct 03 05:03 |
| r_schestowitz | > | Oct 03 05:03 |
| r_schestowitz | > yep | Oct 03 05:03 |
| r_schestowitz | > | Oct 03 05:03 |
| r_schestowitz | > [05:15] <r_schestowitz> tell me where the success is | Oct 03 05:03 |
| r_schestowitz | > [05:15] <r_schestowitz> that companies now call everything "open"? | Oct 03 05:03 |
| r_schestowitz | > [05:15] <r_schestowitz> (even when it's not) | Oct 03 05:03 |
| r_schestowitz | > | Oct 03 05:03 |
| r_schestowitz | > its in the cloud! | Oct 03 05:03 |
| r_schestowitz | > | Oct 03 05:03 |
| r_schestowitz | > | Oct 03 05:03 |
| r_schestowitz | > | Oct 03 05:03 |
| r_schestowitz | > | Oct 03 05:03 |
| r_schestowitz | > [05:18] <r_schestowitz> ousting RMS is crucifying those left in the fight | Oct 03 05:03 |
| r_schestowitz | > [05:19] <jgay> r_schestowitz come on dude. All RMS has needed to do is | Oct 03 05:03 |
| r_schestowitz | > say, "OK, I fucked up, please help me do right to those I have wronged | Oct 03 05:03 |
| r_schestowitz | > in the past and show me the path forward to being a better person to women" | Oct 03 05:03 |
| r_schestowitz | > | Oct 03 05:03 |
| r_schestowitz | > whats funny is how FACTUALLY WRONG this is. it is not true. it is untrue. it is very simply wrong. | Oct 03 05:03 |
| r_schestowitz | > | Oct 03 05:03 |
| r_schestowitz | > | Oct 03 05:03 |
| r_schestowitz | > [05:19] <jgay> and then you know actually stick to that getting advice, | Oct 03 05:03 |
| r_schestowitz | > help, and following it | Oct 03 05:03 |
| r_schestowitz | > | Oct 03 05:03 |
| r_schestowitz | > haha. | Oct 03 05:03 |
| r_schestowitz | > | Oct 03 05:03 |
| r_schestowitz | > | Oct 03 05:03 |
| r_schestowitz | > [05:19] <r_schestowitz> jgay: it's not about women | Oct 03 05:03 |
| r_schestowitz | > [05:19] <r_schestowitz> women are the pretext here | Oct 03 05:03 |
| r_schestowitz | > [05:19] <r_schestowitz> this is politics | Oct 03 05:03 |
| r_schestowitz | > [05:20] <r_schestowitz> like they always oust politicians based on "sex" | Oct 03 05:03 |
| r_schestowitz | > something | Oct 03 05:03 |
| r_schestowitz | > [05:20] <jgay> r_schestowitz pretty sure it is mostly about women and | Oct 03 05:03 |
| r_schestowitz | > about making a bunch a confusing noise on positoins about pedophilia | Oct 03 05:03 |
| r_schestowitz | > [05:20] <r_schestowitz> brought up a decade late | Oct 03 05:03 |
| r_schestowitz | > [05:20] <r_schestowitz> because the media decided it's time for him "to go" | Oct 03 05:03 |
| r_schestowitz | > [05:21] <r_schestowitz> (and help distract from ACTUAL pedophilia | Oct 03 05:03 |
| r_schestowitz | > connected to gates) | Oct 03 05:03 |
| r_schestowitz | > | Oct 03 05:04 |
| r_schestowitz | > yep | Oct 03 05:04 |
| r_schestowitz | > | Oct 03 05:04 |
| r_schestowitz | > | Oct 03 05:04 |
| r_schestowitz | > [05:22] <jgay> r_schestowitz no it really isn't about the media or the mob. | Oct 03 05:04 |
| r_schestowitz | > | Oct 03 05:04 |
| r_schestowitz | > or the man behind the curtain! | Oct 03 05:04 |
| r_schestowitz | > | Oct 03 05:04 |
| r_schestowitz | > | Oct 03 05:04 |
| r_schestowitz | > | Oct 03 05:04 |
| r_schestowitz | > [05:26] <jgay> r_schestowitz no. It was him asking specific people | Oct 03 05:04 |
| r_schestowitz | > things like "would you like to come to my room and listen to records" in | Oct 03 05:04 |
| r_schestowitz | > the middle of an official even twith other staff and supporters; it was | Oct 03 05:04 |
| r_schestowitz | > him turning things like removing jokes from gnu.org that were just | Oct 03 05:04 |
| r_schestowitz | > aweful into some long drawn out argument and battle stretching years | Oct 03 05:04 |
| r_schestowitz | > | Oct 03 05:04 |
| r_schestowitz | > volunteering full time, etc); and it was him yelling that the code of | Oct 03 05:04 |
| r_schestowitz | > conduct at a conference doesnt' apply to him | Oct 03 05:04 |
| r_schestowitz | > | Oct 03 05:04 |
| r_schestowitz | > | Oct 03 05:04 |
| r_schestowitz | > shoudlnt apply to anybody | Oct 03 05:04 |
| r_schestowitz | > | Oct 03 05:04 |
| r_schestowitz | > | Oct 03 05:04 |
| r_schestowitz | > | Oct 03 05:04 |
| r_schestowitz | > [05:26] <jgay> that made it seem like it will be impossible for him to | Oct 03 05:04 |
| r_schestowitz | > ever understand why choosing to argue semantics on the term sexual | Oct 03 05:04 |
| r_schestowitz | > assault is NEVER the place to start the discussion on a very large and | Oct 03 05:04 |
| r_schestowitz | > public mailing list full of many people hat have been tolerant of his | Oct 03 05:04 |
| r_schestowitz | > behavior for 10, 20, or 30 years. | Oct 03 05:04 |
| r_schestowitz | > | Oct 03 05:04 |
| r_schestowitz | > you know hes working backwards from the accusations are fair, right? thats the premise. | Oct 03 05:04 |
| r_schestowitz | > | Oct 03 05:04 |
| r_schestowitz | > you know the most popular thing that makes an argument circular? the premise contains the thing youre arguing about. | Oct 03 05:04 |
| r_schestowitz | > | Oct 03 05:04 |
| r_schestowitz | > we are debating whether his premise is correct. | Oct 03 05:04 |
| r_schestowitz | > | Oct 03 05:04 |
| r_schestowitz | > premises (by definition) never change in an argument. his conclusion and his premise are the same-- thats circular. | Oct 03 05:04 |
| r_schestowitz | > | Oct 03 05:04 |
| r_schestowitz | > | Oct 03 05:04 |
| r_schestowitz | > | Oct 03 05:04 |
| r_schestowitz | > | Oct 03 05:05 |
| r_schestowitz | > | Oct 03 05:05 |
| r_schestowitz | > | Oct 03 05:05 |
| r_schestowitz | > | Oct 03 05:05 |
| r_schestowitz | > [06:59] <oiaohm> r_schestowitz: with wikileaks and Assange it was a | Oct 03 05:05 |
| r_schestowitz | > uphill battle. | Oct 03 05:05 |
| r_schestowitz | > | Oct 03 05:05 |
| r_schestowitz | > and with this it isnt? | Oct 03 05:05 |
| r_schestowitz | > | Oct 03 05:05 |
| r_schestowitz | > | Oct 03 05:05 |
| r_schestowitz | > [06:59] <kaniini> i think BadVista was a bad move tbh | Oct 03 05:05 |
| r_schestowitz | > | Oct 03 05:05 |
| r_schestowitz | > point? | Oct 03 05:05 |
| r_schestowitz | > | Oct 03 05:05 |
| r_schestowitz | > | Oct 03 05:05 |
| r_schestowitz | > [07:00] <jgay> other times we said, "OK, well, they hvea a point, we can | Oct 03 05:05 |
| r_schestowitz | > be negative campaigners in a variety fo ways, maybe we should choose | Oct 03 05:05 |
| r_schestowitz | > some that are more effective at building up more support and do just as | Oct 03 05:05 |
| r_schestowitz | > well at creating public awareness on important computer user freedom issues" | Oct 03 05:05 |
| r_schestowitz | > [07:00] <r_schestowitz> criticism is important | Oct 03 05:05 |
| r_schestowitz | > | Oct 03 05:05 |
| r_schestowitz | > ben mako hill: in defense of negativity | Oct 03 05:05 |
| r_schestowitz | > | Oct 03 05:05 |
| r_schestowitz | > | Oct 03 05:05 |
| r_schestowitz | > [07:00] <kaniini> criticism is important, but they beat that horse until | Oct 03 05:05 |
| r_schestowitz | > it was not just dead, but a skeleton | Oct 03 05:05 |
| r_schestowitz | > | Oct 03 05:05 |
| r_schestowitz | > kind of like you assholes are doing to rms | Oct 03 05:05 |
| r_schestowitz | > | Oct 03 05:05 |
| r_schestowitz | > | Oct 03 05:05 |
| r_schestowitz | > | Oct 03 05:05 |
| r_schestowitz | > | Oct 03 05:05 |
| r_schestowitz | > [07:00] <r_schestowitz> maybe that's why techrights fills a gap FSF | Oct 03 05:05 |
| r_schestowitz | > won't fill anymore | Oct 03 05:05 |
| r_schestowitz | > | Oct 03 05:05 |
| r_schestowitz | > yeah, its too bad its not them though im very glad someone does it | Oct 03 05:05 |
| r_schestowitz | > | Oct 03 05:05 |
| r_schestowitz | > also i agree | Oct 03 05:05 |
| r_schestowitz | > | Oct 03 05:05 |
| r_schestowitz | > | Oct 03 05:05 |
| r_schestowitz | > | Oct 03 05:06 |
| r_schestowitz | > [07:00] <kaniini> meanwhile cloud computing was rising | Oct 03 05:06 |
| r_schestowitz | > [07:00] <kaniini> and FSF didn't respond until it was too late | Oct 03 05:06 |
| r_schestowitz | > | Oct 03 05:06 |
| r_schestowitz | > metrics? proof? | Oct 03 05:06 |
| r_schestowitz | > | Oct 03 05:06 |
| r_schestowitz | > [07:01] <r_schestowitz> kaniini: true | Oct 03 05:06 |
| r_schestowitz | > | Oct 03 05:06 |
| r_schestowitz | > really? | Oct 03 05:06 |
| r_schestowitz | > | Oct 03 05:06 |
| r_schestowitz | > i want to know more of this. | Oct 03 05:06 |
| r_schestowitz | > | Oct 03 05:06 |
| r_schestowitz | > | Oct 03 05:06 |
| r_schestowitz | > [07:01] <r_schestowitz> RMS did speak out against "cloud" in 2008 | Oct 03 05:06 |
| r_schestowitz | > [07:02] <r_schestowitz> | Oct 03 05:06 |
| r_schestowitz | > | Oct 03 05:06 |
| r_schestowitz | > | Oct 03 05:06 |
| r_schestowitz | > [07:02] <oiaohm> The title of GNU founder RMS can keep on using. | Oct 03 05:06 |
| r_schestowitz | > [07:02] <r_schestowitz> even my employer fell for this "Cloud" idiocy | Oct 03 05:06 |
| r_schestowitz | > [07:02] <jgay> One nice result was when brett smith left, I was | Oct 03 05:06 |
| r_schestowitz | > confident that we had reached a place where the FSF and online-based | Oct 03 05:06 |
| r_schestowitz | > activism in general were appealing enough that I knew we could get a | Oct 03 05:06 |
| r_schestowitz | > strong pool of applicants to do campaigns management. So I took on the | Oct 03 05:06 |
| r_schestowitz | > much harder to hire for job of licensing and compliance manager and made | Oct 03 05:06 |
| r_schestowitz | > room for new | Oct 03 05:06 |
| r_schestowitz | > [07:02] <jgay> campaigns managers. | Oct 03 05:06 |
| r_schestowitz | > | Oct 03 05:06 |
| r_schestowitz | > [07:04] <oiaohm> r_schestowitz: management/board/president roles have | Oct 03 05:06 |
| r_schestowitz | > requires that the person be of good and suitable character or at least | Oct 03 05:06 |
| r_schestowitz | > smart enough to keep there mouth shut on particular topics that could | Oct 03 05:06 |
| r_schestowitz | > dig them into a hole. | Oct 03 05:06 |
| r_schestowitz | > | Oct 03 05:06 |
| r_schestowitz | > if hes lying you know... | Oct 03 05:06 |
| r_schestowitz | > | Oct 03 05:06 |
| r_schestowitz | > | Oct 03 05:06 |
| r_schestowitz | > | Oct 03 05:06 |
| r_schestowitz | > | Oct 03 05:06 |
| r_schestowitz | > [07:06] <jgay> One thing I hope the FSF does is find ways to bring in | Oct 03 05:06 |
| r_schestowitz | > more of its community to help on making strategic decisions and in | Oct 03 05:06 |
| r_schestowitz | > experimenting. Like, I imagine you could spin out a lot of small | Oct 03 05:06 |
| r_schestowitz | > activist campaigns and basically keep them a good distance away from the | Oct 03 05:07 |
| r_schestowitz | > FSF, | Oct 03 05:07 |
| r_schestowitz | > | Oct 03 05:07 |
| r_schestowitz | > thats what the freedom labs idea is | Oct 03 05:07 |
| r_schestowitz | > | Oct 03 05:07 |
| r_schestowitz | > | Oct 03 05:07 |
| r_schestowitz | > [07:06] <jgay> build momentum, are timely, and seem to be working well, | Oct 03 05:07 |
| r_schestowitz | > could then be embraced more directly by the FSF. | Oct 03 05:07 |
| r_schestowitz | > | Oct 03 05:07 |
| r_schestowitz | > but unlikely they would be good enough if stallman isnt | Oct 03 05:07 |
| r_schestowitz | > | Oct 03 05:07 |
| r_schestowitz | > unless theyre already corporate. | Oct 03 05:07 |
| r_schestowitz | > | Oct 03 05:07 |
| r_schestowitz | > hey they could hire swapnil and byfield! | Oct 03 05:07 |
| r_schestowitz | > | Oct 03 05:07 |
| r_schestowitz | > | Oct 03 05:07 |
| r_schestowitz | > | Oct 03 05:07 |
| r_schestowitz | > [07:08] <jgay> While I think it would be fine to shut down | Oct 03 05:07 |
| r_schestowitz | > directory.fsf.org | Oct 03 05:07 |
| r_schestowitz | > | Oct 03 05:07 |
| r_schestowitz | > thats in the mission description you fuck-- you just basically said burn down the fsf library-- you fucking traitor! | Oct 03 05:07 |
| r_schestowitz | > | Oct 03 05:07 |
| r_schestowitz | > good to know you want to, though, THANKS! | Oct 03 05:07 |
| r_schestowitz | > | Oct 03 05:07 |
| r_schestowitz | > | Oct 03 05:07 |
| r_schestowitz | > , I also think that an alternative approach could be to | Oct 03 05:07 |
| r_schestowitz | > go ahead and take an entirely different approach. Really focus on the | Oct 03 05:07 |
| r_schestowitz | > fact that underlying the directory is a database which is designed to be | Oct 03 05:07 |
| r_schestowitz | > integrated with a SPARQL server | Oct 03 05:07 |
| r_schestowitz | > | Oct 03 05:07 |
| r_schestowitz | > or maybe azure! | Oct 03 05:07 |
| r_schestowitz | > | Oct 03 05:07 |
| r_schestowitz | > | Oct 03 05:07 |
| r_schestowitz | > | Oct 03 05:07 |
| r_schestowitz | > | Oct 03 05:07 |
| r_schestowitz | > Go ahead and embrace snaps | Oct 03 05:07 |
| r_schestowitz | > and collaborate. | Oct 03 05:07 |
| r_schestowitz | > | Oct 03 05:07 |
| r_schestowitz | > snaps are controlled by canonical and used mostly (the stats show) non-free stuff like skype/discord and msvc | Oct 03 05:07 |
| r_schestowitz | > | Oct 03 05:07 |
| r_schestowitz | > so basically, get rid of the free software directory and let canonical control packages. | Oct 03 05:08 |
| r_schestowitz | > | Oct 03 05:08 |
| r_schestowitz | > GREAT PLAN. | Oct 03 05:08 |
| r_schestowitz | > | Oct 03 05:08 |
| r_schestowitz | > | Oct 03 05:08 |
| r_schestowitz | > | Oct 03 05:08 |
| r_schestowitz | > Work with everyone you can | Oct 03 05:08 |
| r_schestowitz | > | Oct 03 05:08 |
| r_schestowitz | > work with microsoft! | Oct 03 05:08 |
| r_schestowitz | > | Oct 03 05:08 |
| r_schestowitz | > But, make committments. | Oct 03 05:08 |
| r_schestowitz | > | Oct 03 05:08 |
| r_schestowitz | > sign contracts! | Oct 03 05:08 |
| r_schestowitz | > | Oct 03 05:08 |
| r_schestowitz | > | Oct 03 05:08 |
| r_schestowitz | > Avoid the "windows trap" etc. | Oct 03 05:08 |
| r_schestowitz | > | Oct 03 05:08 |
| r_schestowitz | > like badvista? | Oct 03 05:08 |
| r_schestowitz | > | Oct 03 05:08 |
| r_schestowitz | > is it really controversial to say that non-free software is bad? | Oct 03 05:08 |
| r_schestowitz | > | Oct 03 05:08 |
| r_schestowitz | > is that offensive? is it against their mission? what? | Oct 03 05:08 |
| r_schestowitz | > | Oct 03 05:08 |
| r_schestowitz | > | Oct 03 05:08 |
| r_schestowitz | > | Oct 03 05:08 |
| r_schestowitz | >> to free software as being the public commons that benefits humanity and | Oct 03 05:08 |
| r_schestowitz | > say that if others want to play by a different rules, they are also free | Oct 03 05:08 |
| r_schestowitz | > to make use of their own data stores but you encourage them to not mix and | Oct 03 05:08 |
| r_schestowitz | > [07:12] <jgay> match free and nonfree. Etc | Oct 03 05:08 |
| r_schestowitz | > | Oct 03 05:08 |
| r_schestowitz | > but thats what open source is... | Oct 03 05:08 |
| r_schestowitz | > | Oct 03 05:08 |
| r_schestowitz | > has he watched what happened to osi? does he have internet? | Oct 03 05:08 |
| r_schestowitz | > | Oct 03 05:08 |
| r_schestowitz | > | Oct 03 05:08 |
| r_schestowitz | > [07:16] <jgay> Oh man. Now that I'm started I have like a long list of | Oct 03 05:08 |
| r_schestowitz | > good ideas. | Oct 03 05:08 |
| r_schestowitz | > | Oct 03 05:08 |
| r_schestowitz | > for jim zemlin. | Oct 03 05:08 |
| r_schestowitz | > | Oct 03 05:08 |
| r_schestowitz | > | Oct 03 05:09 |
| r_schestowitz | >> But, my real point is, I would love to feel like there was a | Oct 03 05:09 |
| r_schestowitz | > commuinty of people who would work with me on helping to flush out good | Oct 03 05:09 |
| r_schestowitz | > ideas and more community | Oct 03 05:09 |
| r_schestowitz | > | Oct 03 05:09 |
| r_schestowitz | > i definitely think it would be good to flush his ideas. | Oct 03 05:09 |
| r_schestowitz | > | Oct 03 05:09 |
| r_schestowitz | > | Oct 03 05:09 |
| r_schestowitz | > | Oct 03 05:09 |
| r_schestowitz | >> And then hopefully an FSF that would have | Oct 03 05:09 |
| r_schestowitz | > a way to | Oct 03 05:09 |
| r_schestowitz | > [07:16] <jgay> allocate at least some of its resources to | Oct 03 05:09 |
| r_schestowitz | > | Oct 03 05:09 |
| r_schestowitz | > buying tweets from zemlin | Oct 03 05:09 |
| r_schestowitz | > | Oct 03 05:09 |
| r_schestowitz | > | Oct 03 05:09 |
| r_schestowitz | >> backing and | Oct 03 05:09 |
| r_schestowitz | > supporting volunteers doing such work that aligned politically and with | Oct 03 05:09 |
| r_schestowitz | > messaging. Like, even if it was limited to only putting a fraction of | Oct 03 05:09 |
| r_schestowitz | > its resources toward democratically aligned ideas that fall within some | Oct 03 05:09 |
| r_schestowitz | > criteria set by the board, etc. I think that even opening the door a | Oct 03 05:09 |
| r_schestowitz | > little bit | Oct 03 05:09 |
| r_schestowitz | > | Oct 03 05:09 |
| r_schestowitz | > to the linux foundation. | Oct 03 05:09 |
| r_schestowitz | > | Oct 03 05:09 |
| r_schestowitz | > | Oct 03 05:09 |
| r_schestowitz | > [07:22] <jgay> Well. I had my shot and I took it. I dont' think I'm the | Oct 03 05:09 |
| r_schestowitz | > right person to help the FSF. | Oct 03 05:09 |
| r_schestowitz | > | Oct 03 05:09 |
| r_schestowitz | > me neither! | Oct 03 05:09 |
| r_schestowitz | > | Oct 03 05:09 |
| r_schestowitz | > | Oct 03 05:09 |
| r_schestowitz | > [07:23] <jgay> r_schestowitz thank you for your time and engaging in | Oct 03 05:09 |
| r_schestowitz | > this discussion this evening and for helping to host a welcoming forum | Oct 03 05:09 |
| r_schestowitz | > and community hub. I appreciate what you do. | Oct 03 05:09 |
| r_schestowitz | > | Oct 03 05:09 |
| r_schestowitz | > me too. look how much you learn when you dont boot people out of chat for violating a code of conduct that says "dont be a lying, traitorous asshole." | Oct 03 05:09 |
| r_schestowitz | > | Oct 03 05:09 |
| r_schestowitz | > inclusion is good! | Oct 03 05:09 |
| r_schestowitz | > | Oct 03 05:09 |
| r_schestowitz | > its like the internet, or public libraries. | Oct 03 05:10 |
| r_schestowitz | > | Oct 03 05:10 |
| r_schestowitz | > | Oct 03 05:10 |
| r_schestowitz | > | Oct 03 05:10 |
| r_schestowitz | > [08:54] <r_schestowitz> RMS: | Oct 03 05:10 |
| r_schestowitz | > [08:54] <r_schestowitz> > /I have been hit, but | Oct 03 05:10 |
| r_schestowitz | > [08:54] <r_schestowitz> > not knocked out, and my campaign for free | Oct 03 05:10 |
| r_schestowitz | > software is not over. I | Oct 03 05:10 |
| r_schestowitz | > [08:54] <r_schestowitz> > appreciate your moral support, but there I | Oct 03 05:10 |
| r_schestowitz | > also need your help. | Oct 03 05:10 |
| r_schestowitz | > [08:54] <r_schestowitz> > | Oct 03 05:10 |
| r_schestowitz | > [08:54] <r_schestowitz> > Everyone on the FSF board is dedicated to free | Oct 03 05:10 |
| r_schestowitz | > software. The question is, | Oct 03 05:10 |
| r_schestowitz | > [08:54] <r_schestowitz> > will they stand as firm as is needed against | Oct 03 05:10 |
| r_schestowitz | > outside pressure? | Oct 03 05:10 |
| r_schestowitz | > | Oct 03 05:10 |
| r_schestowitz | > WOW THIS SOUNDS MORE IMPORTANT THAN EVER | Oct 03 05:10 |
| r_schestowitz | > | Oct 03 05:10 |
| r_schestowitz | > i might even join again... (probably not though) | Oct 03 05:10 |
| r_schestowitz | > | Oct 03 05:10 |
| r_schestowitz | > | Oct 03 05:10 |
| r_schestowitz | > | Oct 03 05:10 |
| r_schestowitz | > | Oct 03 05:10 |
| r_schestowitz | > [14:01] <MinceR> here's something the FSF could do to become relevant | Oct 03 05:10 |
| r_schestowitz | > again: stop pretending that systemd supports the freedoms of its users | Oct 03 05:10 |
| r_schestowitz | > | Oct 03 05:10 |
| r_schestowitz | > YES! | Oct 03 05:10 |
| r_schestowitz | > | Oct 03 05:10 |
| r_schestowitz | > [14:01] <r_schestowitz> that would upset IBM | Oct 03 05:10 |
| r_schestowitz | > [14:01] <r_schestowitz> and make another enemy | Oct 03 05:10 |
| r_schestowitz | > | Oct 03 05:10 |
| r_schestowitz | > they already are the enemy. ibm is a monopoly. watch silicon cowboys. | Oct 03 05:10 |
| r_schestowitz | > | Oct 03 05:10 |
| r_schestowitz | > | Oct 03 05:10 |
| r_schestowitz | > GNOME 3.34 is now managed using systemd – Benjamin Berg | Oct 03 05:10 |
| r_schestowitz | > | Oct 03 05:10 |
| r_schestowitz | > borg! | Oct 03 05:10 |
| r_schestowitz | > | Oct 03 05:10 |
| r_schestowitz | > | Oct 03 05:10 |
| r_schestowitz | > | Oct 03 05:10 |
| r_schestowitz | > [14:04] <r_schestowitz> MinceR: we speak more about these issues over time | Oct 03 05:11 |
| r_schestowitz | > [14:04] <r_schestowitz> but gently | Oct 03 05:11 |
| r_schestowitz | > | Oct 03 05:11 |
| r_schestowitz | > better than nothing | Oct 03 05:11 |
| r_schestowitz | > | Oct 03 05:11 |
| r_schestowitz | > [14:05] <MinceR> IBM is already an enemy to the free software community | Oct 03 05:11 |
| r_schestowitz | > | Oct 03 05:11 |
| r_schestowitz | > yep! i just said that | Oct 03 05:11 |
| r_schestowitz | > | Oct 03 05:11 |
| r_schestowitz | > [14:05] <MinceR> regardless of whether that community recognizes this | Oct 03 05:11 |
| r_schestowitz | > | Oct 03 05:11 |
| r_schestowitz | > yep! | Oct 03 05:11 |
| r_schestowitz | > | Oct 03 05:11 |
| r_schestowitz | > [14:05] <MinceR> and regardless of whether the FSF still wants to stand | Oct 03 05:11 |
| r_schestowitz | > with free software or not | Oct 03 05:11 |
| r_schestowitz | > | Oct 03 05:11 |
| r_schestowitz | > yep! love you mincer | Oct 03 05:11 |
| r_schestowitz | > | Oct 03 05:11 |
| r_schestowitz | > [14:05] <r_schestowitz> it always was | Oct 03 05:11 |
| r_schestowitz | > | Oct 03 05:11 |
| r_schestowitz | > yep! | Oct 03 05:11 |
| r_schestowitz | > | Oct 03 05:11 |
| r_schestowitz | > [14:05] <MinceR> with RH, they're even more so | Oct 03 05:11 |
| r_schestowitz | > | Oct 03 05:11 |
| r_schestowitz | > yep! | Oct 03 05:11 |
| r_schestowitz | > | Oct 03 05:11 |
| r_schestowitz | > [14:05] <r_schestowitz> "Linux" was its darling | Oct 03 05:11 |
| r_schestowitz | > [14:05] <r_schestowitz> it doesn;'t like to talk about GNU and GPL | Oct 03 05:11 |
| r_schestowitz | > [14:11] <MinceR> also, RMS forgot to ask microsoft to stop extorting and | Oct 03 05:11 |
| r_schestowitz | > suing Linux-based device vendors | Oct 03 05:11 |
| r_schestowitz | > | Oct 03 05:11 |
| r_schestowitz | > true. | Oct 03 05:11 |
| r_schestowitz | > | Oct 03 05:11 |
| r_schestowitz | > | Oct 03 05:11 |
| r_schestowitz | > [14:50] <XRevan86> schestowitz: A lengthy post about a trivial task. | Oct 03 05:11 |
| r_schestowitz | > [14:51] <r_schestowitz> like systemd to init | Oct 03 05:11 |
| r_schestowitz | > [14:51] <XRevan86> > This despite the fact that the systemd | Oct 03 05:11 |
| r_schestowitz | > documentation mentions the use of a "generator" that generates systemd | Oct 03 05:11 |
| r_schestowitz | > services from an rc.local file if one exists. (That seems to be a good | Oct 03 05:11 |
| r_schestowitz | > way as any to enforce deprecation—make it not work.) | Oct 03 05:11 |
| r_schestowitz | > | Oct 03 05:12 |
| r_schestowitz | > brilliant. full circle, to the beginning of the treachery. | Oct 03 05:12 |
| r_schestowitz | > | Oct 03 05:12 |
| r_schestowitz | > | Oct 03 05:12 |
| r_schestowitz | > | Oct 03 05:12 |
| r_schestowitz | > [14:56] <XRevan86> Reportedly systemd-rc-local-generator does work. But | Oct 03 05:12 |
| r_schestowitz | > RHEL could break or remove it. | Oct 03 05:12 |
| r_schestowitz | > | Oct 03 05:12 |
| r_schestowitz | > or replace it with systemd-rcd-manager subsystem, which depends on consolekit and msvc and skype (time to update systemd.snap, add the ubuntu repos too- we did it for you) | Oct 03 05:12 |
| r_schestowitz | > | Oct 03 05:12 |
| r_schestowitz | > Running Systemd Update 10 of 1057... | Oct 03 05:12 |
| r_schestowitz | > | Oct 03 05:12 |
| r_schestowitz | > Do not turn off your computer. | Oct 03 05:12 |
| r_schestowitz | > | Oct 03 05:12 |
| r_schestowitz | > | Oct 03 05:12 |
| r_schestowitz | > | Oct 03 05:12 |
| r_schestowitz | > [14:59] <tyil> r_schestowitz: is gnome hard depending on systemd again | Oct 03 05:12 |
| r_schestowitz | > [14:59] <r_schestowitz> don't know | Oct 03 05:12 |
| r_schestowitz | > [14:59] <r_schestowitz> what about mono? | Oct 03 05:12 |
| r_schestowitz | > | Oct 03 05:12 |
| r_schestowitz | > same thing-- a giant microsoft patent trap the size of a second operating systemd that pretends to be "components" like theyre optional. | Oct 03 05:12 |
| r_schestowitz | > | Oct 03 05:12 |
| r_schestowitz | > ibm sells systemd patents to micro-- OH NO! | Oct 03 05:12 |
| r_schestowitz | > | Oct 03 05:12 |
| r_schestowitz | > ibm shares systemd patents with microsoft android patents... which are all bullshit but they work! | Oct 03 05:12 |
| r_schestowitz | > | Oct 03 05:12 |
| r_schestowitz | > "we have an android contract with ibm" | Oct 03 05:12 |
| r_schestowitz | > | Oct 03 05:12 |
| r_schestowitz | > "ibm?" | Oct 03 05:12 |
| r_schestowitz | > | Oct 03 05:12 |
| r_schestowitz | > "yeah, long story..." | Oct 03 05:12 |
| r_schestowitz | > | Oct 03 05:12 |
| r_schestowitz | > | Oct 03 05:12 |
| r_schestowitz | > https://blogs.gnome.org/benzea/2019/10/01/gnome-3-34-is-now-managed-using-systemd/, | Oct 03 05:12 |
| r_schestowitz | > which sounds by the title that gnome devs are once more hard-depending | Oct 03 05:12 |
| -TechBytesBot/#techbytes-blogs.gnome.org | GNOME 3.34 is now managed using systemd – Benjamin Berg | Oct 03 05:12 | |
| r_schestowitz | > on systemd features | Oct 03 05:12 |
| r_schestowitz | > | Oct 03 05:12 |
| r_schestowitz | > gnome needs to be turned into optional components too, not just systemd | Oct 03 05:12 |
| r_schestowitz | > | Oct 03 05:12 |
| r_schestowitz | > gnomed | Oct 03 05:12 |
| r_schestowitz | > | Oct 03 05:13 |
| r_schestowitz | > waylandd | Oct 03 05:13 |
| r_schestowitz | > | Oct 03 05:13 |
| r_schestowitz | > systemd | Oct 03 05:13 |
| r_schestowitz | > | Oct 03 05:13 |
| r_schestowitz | > androidd | Oct 03 05:13 |
| r_schestowitz | > | Oct 03 05:13 |
| r_schestowitz | > | Oct 03 05:13 |
| r_schestowitz | > [15:01] <tyil> and skimming through it, it does seem like gnome devs are | Oct 03 05:13 |
| r_schestowitz | > caring less and less about writing good software | Oct 03 05:13 |
| r_schestowitz | > | Oct 03 05:13 |
| r_schestowitz | > did they ever? | Oct 03 05:13 |
| r_schestowitz | > | Oct 03 05:13 |
| r_schestowitz | > | Oct 03 05:13 |
| r_schestowitz | > | Oct 03 05:13 |
| r_schestowitz | > [15:02] <tyil> one day people will want to migrate away from systemd, | Oct 03 05:13 |
| r_schestowitz | > and most of the distros will be proper fucked | Oct 03 05:13 |
| r_schestowitz | > | Oct 03 05:13 |
| r_schestowitz | > yep, in 2015-- still proper fucked in 2019 | Oct 03 05:13 |
| r_schestowitz | > | Oct 03 05:13 |
| r_schestowitz | > [15:03] <r_schestowitz> or they could work to repair a monstrous buggy | Oct 03 05:13 |
| r_schestowitz | > thing that's a systemd fork | Oct 03 05:13 |
| r_schestowitz | > | Oct 03 05:13 |
| r_schestowitz | > nope, oliva says not needed | Oct 03 05:13 |
| r_schestowitz | > | Oct 03 05:13 |
| r_schestowitz | > [15:04] <tyil> I personally would've preferred software to not hard | Oct 03 05:13 |
| r_schestowitz | > depend on a single init system | Oct 03 05:13 |
| r_schestowitz | > | Oct 03 05:13 |
| r_schestowitz | > no shit | Oct 03 05:13 |
| r_schestowitz | > | Oct 03 05:13 |
| r_schestowitz | > [15:04] <r_schestowitz> it's not an init system | Oct 03 05:13 |
| r_schestowitz | > | Oct 03 05:13 |
| r_schestowitz | > true | Oct 03 05:13 |
| r_schestowitz | > | Oct 03 05:13 |
| r_schestowitz | > [15:04] <tyil> and systemd proponents to have an honest discussion on | Oct 03 05:13 |
| r_schestowitz | > init for once | Oct 03 05:13 |
| r_schestowitz | > | Oct 03 05:13 |
| r_schestowitz | > theyre all narcissists and liars | Oct 03 05:13 |
| r_schestowitz | > | Oct 03 05:13 |
| r_schestowitz | > | Oct 03 05:13 |
| r_schestowitz | > [15:04] <XRevan86> tyil, schestowitz: Depends on whether they left a | Oct 03 05:14 |
| r_schestowitz | > fallback. | Oct 03 05:14 |
| r_schestowitz | > [15:05] <XRevan86> The blog post itself doesn't state that GNOME stops | Oct 03 05:14 |
| r_schestowitz | > supporting working without systemd. | Oct 03 05:14 |
| r_schestowitz | > | Oct 03 05:14 |
| r_schestowitz | > compile switches. | Oct 03 05:14 |
| r_schestowitz | > | Oct 03 05:14 |
| r_schestowitz | > usually is at least. | Oct 03 05:14 |
| r_schestowitz | > | Oct 03 05:14 |
| r_schestowitz | > | Oct 03 05:14 |
| r_schestowitz | > | Oct 03 05:14 |
| r_schestowitz | > [15:06] <XRevan86> Upstart had a user running instance, Ubuntu used it | Oct 03 05:14 |
| r_schestowitz | > extensively. | Oct 03 05:14 |
| r_schestowitz | > [15:07] <XRevan86> So that's kind of the root of systemd --user | Oct 03 05:14 |
| r_schestowitz | > | Oct 03 05:14 |
| r_schestowitz | > moot, theyre dumping it. just as i wrote code to make it useful to me./ | Oct 03 05:14 |
| r_schestowitz | > | Oct 03 05:14 |
| r_schestowitz | > | Oct 03 05:14 |
| r_schestowitz | > [15:08] <tyil> I prefer using stable and sane software, so systemd is | Oct 03 05:14 |
| r_schestowitz | > masked from my systems | Oct 03 05:14 |
| r_schestowitz | > | Oct 03 05:14 |
| r_schestowitz | > exactly | Oct 03 05:14 |
| r_schestowitz | > | Oct 03 05:14 |
| r_schestowitz | > | Oct 03 05:14 |
| r_schestowitz | > [15:08] <tyil> all ideas in systemd came from other systems, which all | Oct 03 05:14 |
| r_schestowitz | > did a better job of implementing said features :') | Oct 03 05:14 |
| r_schestowitz | > | Oct 03 05:14 |
| r_schestowitz | > apple | Oct 03 05:14 |
| r_schestowitz | > | Oct 03 05:14 |
| r_schestowitz | > | Oct 03 05:14 |
| r_schestowitz | > [15:09] <scientes> tyil, upstart sucked | Oct 03 05:14 |
| r_schestowitz | > | Oct 03 05:14 |
| r_schestowitz | > it still does, but systemd is worse | Oct 03 05:14 |
| r_schestowitz | > | Oct 03 05:14 |
| r_schestowitz | > | Oct 03 05:14 |
| r_schestowitz | > [15:09] <scientes> launchd was the superior init | Oct 03 05:14 |
| r_schestowitz | > | Oct 03 05:14 |
| r_schestowitz | > APPLE | Oct 03 05:14 |
| r_schestowitz | > | Oct 03 05:14 |
| r_schestowitz | > [15:09] <XRevan86> scientes: With services in XML? | Oct 03 05:14 |
| r_schestowitz | > | Oct 03 05:15 |
| r_schestowitz | > EWWWWW | Oct 03 05:15 |
| r_schestowitz | > | Oct 03 05:15 |
| r_schestowitz | > [15:09] <tyil> openrc is my preferred init, but launchd is objectively a | Oct 03 05:15 |
| r_schestowitz | > good init, especially compared to the horror that is systemd | Oct 03 05:15 |
| r_schestowitz | > | Oct 03 05:15 |
| r_schestowitz | > so is hitlerd though i wont install it | Oct 03 05:15 |
| r_schestowitz | > | Oct 03 05:15 |
| r_schestowitz | > | Oct 03 05:15 |
| r_schestowitz | > [15:10] <tyil> my main issue is that the systemd fanatics have never had | Oct 03 05:15 |
| r_schestowitz | > an honest discussion as to why systemd is supposedly better than | Oct 03 05:15 |
| r_schestowitz | > alternatives, and big projects (such as gnome) are forcing distros and | Oct 03 05:15 |
| r_schestowitz | > users to use objectively garbage software | Oct 03 05:15 |
| r_schestowitz | > | Oct 03 05:15 |
| r_schestowitz | > yep! | Oct 03 05:15 |
| r_schestowitz | > | Oct 03 05:15 |
| r_schestowitz | > | Oct 03 05:15 |
| r_schestowitz | > [15:13] <tyil> elogind was made just so people can avoid most of | Oct 03 05:15 |
| r_schestowitz | > systemd's cancer, it's a workaround to a rather big problem | Oct 03 05:15 |
| r_schestowitz | > | Oct 03 05:15 |
| r_schestowitz | > true | Oct 03 05:15 |
| r_schestowitz | > | Oct 03 05:15 |
| r_schestowitz | > | Oct 03 05:15 |
| r_schestowitz | > [15:13] <scientes> tyil, they actually do all the time | Oct 03 05:15 |
| r_schestowitz | > [15:13] <scientes> you just are not listening | Oct 03 05:15 |
| r_schestowitz | > | Oct 03 05:15 |
| r_schestowitz | > fuck off scientes | Oct 03 05:15 |
| r_schestowitz | > | Oct 03 05:15 |
| r_schestowitz | > [15:13] <tyil> scientes: sure thing | Oct 03 05:15 |
| r_schestowitz | > [15:13] <tyil> that's why they always pretend there's only systemd and sysv | Oct 03 05:15 |
| r_schestowitz | > [15:14] <tyil> I've read plenty of threads and discussed the issue with | Oct 03 05:15 |
| r_schestowitz | > plenty of debian and arch devs | Oct 03 05:15 |
| r_schestowitz | > | Oct 03 05:15 |
| r_schestowitz | > wait for it | Oct 03 05:15 |
| r_schestowitz | > | Oct 03 05:15 |
| r_schestowitz | > | Oct 03 05:15 |
| r_schestowitz | > | Oct 03 05:15 |
| r_schestowitz | > [15:14] <scientes> you just don't like change | Oct 03 05:15 |
| r_schestowitz | > | Oct 03 05:15 |
| r_schestowitz | > this guy isnt a scientist, hes a politician. ted wrote a chapter about this. | Oct 03 05:15 |
| r_schestowitz | > | Oct 03 05:16 |
| r_schestowitz | > | Oct 03 05:16 |
| r_schestowitz | > | Oct 03 05:16 |
| r_schestowitz | > [15:14] <scientes> and don't know what the problems are | Oct 03 05:16 |
| r_schestowitz | > | Oct 03 05:16 |
| r_schestowitz | > yep, theres the thing lennart said in 2015. | Oct 03 05:16 |
| r_schestowitz | > | Oct 03 05:16 |
| r_schestowitz | > what a douchebag | Oct 03 05:16 |
| r_schestowitz | > | Oct 03 05:16 |
| r_schestowitz | > [15:14] <tyil> I don't, no, especially not when the "change" is a | Oct 03 05:16 |
| r_schestowitz | > massive downgrade in stability | Oct 03 05:16 |
| r_schestowitz | > [15:14] <tyil> and security | Oct 03 05:16 |
| r_schestowitz | > | Oct 03 05:16 |
| r_schestowitz | > yep | Oct 03 05:16 |
| r_schestowitz | > | Oct 03 05:16 |
| r_schestowitz | > [15:14] <scientes> you have no idea what you are talking about | Oct 03 05:16 |
| r_schestowitz | > | Oct 03 05:16 |
| r_schestowitz | > | Oct 03 05:16 |
| r_schestowitz | > OKAY SCIENTES, what you are doing is EXACTLY what won lennart a pwnie for his record-breaking SHIT attitude about security. | Oct 03 05:16 |
| r_schestowitz | > | Oct 03 05:16 |
| r_schestowitz | > gtfo. | Oct 03 05:16 |
| r_schestowitz | > | Oct 03 05:16 |
| r_schestowitz | > | Oct 03 05:16 |
| r_schestowitz | > [15:15] <tyil> ofcourse not, good thing you are completely unable to | Oct 03 05:16 |
| r_schestowitz | > explain it and can only say "n-no, you are WRONG" | Oct 03 05:16 |
| r_schestowitz | > | Oct 03 05:16 |
| r_schestowitz | > yep! | Oct 03 05:16 |
| r_schestowitz | > | Oct 03 05:16 |
| r_schestowitz | > [15:15] <tyil> >making retarded quotes that have no bearing on the | Oct 03 05:16 |
| r_schestowitz | > conversation instead of answering a question | Oct 03 05:16 |
| r_schestowitz | > [15:15] <tyil> ok buddy | Oct 03 05:16 |
| r_schestowitz | > [15:15] <tyil> you do you :) | Oct 03 05:16 |
| r_schestowitz | > | Oct 03 05:16 |
| r_schestowitz | > yep! | Oct 03 05:16 |
| r_schestowitz | > | Oct 03 05:16 |
| r_schestowitz | > [15:16] <tyil> I guess I can stand by my argument that thus far, no | Oct 03 05:16 |
| r_schestowitz | > systemd fanboy has been able to have an honest conversation | Oct 03 05:16 |
| r_schestowitz | > [15:16] <scientes> you aren't listening | Oct 03 05:16 |
| r_schestowitz | > | Oct 03 05:16 |
| r_schestowitz | > and he isnt talking. hes deflecting. | Oct 03 05:16 |
| r_schestowitz | > | Oct 03 05:17 |
| r_schestowitz | > | Oct 03 05:17 |
| r_schestowitz | > [15:17] <tyil> are you just going to repeat that whenever you have no | Oct 03 05:17 |
| r_schestowitz | > answers? | Oct 03 05:17 |
| r_schestowitz | > [15:17] <scientes> You don't even know what data structure systemd is | Oct 03 05:17 |
| r_schestowitz | > based on | Oct 03 05:17 |
| r_schestowitz | > | Oct 03 05:17 |
| r_schestowitz | > appeal to impressively sophisticated TREKNOBABBLE! | Oct 03 05:17 |
| r_schestowitz | > | Oct 03 05:17 |
| r_schestowitz | > | Oct 03 05:17 |
| r_schestowitz | > | Oct 03 05:17 |
| r_schestowitz | > [15:17] <tyil> I mean, I shouldn't expect anything from a systemd fanboy | Oct 03 05:17 |
| r_schestowitz | > [15:17] <scientes> tyil, is that a question? | Oct 03 05:17 |
| r_schestowitz | > [15:17] <scientes> tyil, are you talking to somebody? | Oct 03 05:17 |
| r_schestowitz | > | Oct 03 05:17 |
| r_schestowitz | > yes, an idiot | Oct 03 05:17 |
| r_schestowitz | > | Oct 03 05:17 |
| r_schestowitz | > [15:18] <tyil> I understand it's hard for you to not be able to "win" a | Oct 03 05:17 |
| r_schestowitz | > discussion with stupid remarks, scientes, but please try to keep up | Oct 03 05:17 |
| r_schestowitz | > | Oct 03 05:17 |
| r_schestowitz | > alright, both dicks are out and swinging. | Oct 03 05:17 |
| r_schestowitz | > | Oct 03 05:17 |
| r_schestowitz | > | Oct 03 05:17 |
| r_schestowitz | > [15:19] <tyil> ok buddy | Oct 03 05:17 |
| r_schestowitz | > [15:19] <tyil> keep ignoring literally everything I say and pretend | Oct 03 05:17 |
| r_schestowitz | > you're enlightened | Oct 03 05:17 |
| r_schestowitz | > | Oct 03 05:17 |
| r_schestowitz | > fair | Oct 03 05:17 |
| r_schestowitz | > | Oct 03 05:17 |
| r_schestowitz | > [15:19] <scientes> once you make a technical point, I will answer it | Oct 03 05:17 |
| r_schestowitz | > | Oct 03 05:17 |
| r_schestowitz | > with other unrelated bullshit | Oct 03 05:17 |
| r_schestowitz | > | Oct 03 05:17 |
| r_schestowitz | > | Oct 03 05:17 |
| r_schestowitz | > [15:21] <XRevan86> I'll just say that I find hardcoding on systemd a bad | Oct 03 05:17 |
| r_schestowitz | > idea, because portability is good. | Oct 03 05:17 |
| r_schestowitz | > [15:21] <scientes> just baseless allegations | Oct 03 05:17 |
| r_schestowitz | > | Oct 03 05:17 |
| r_schestowitz | > ping pong | Oct 03 05:17 |
| r_schestowitz | > | Oct 03 05:17 |
| r_schestowitz | > tak! | Oct 03 05:18 |
| r_schestowitz | > pok! | Oct 03 05:18 |
| r_schestowitz | > tak! | Oct 03 05:18 |
| r_schestowitz | > pok! | Oct 03 05:18 |
| r_schestowitz | > tak! | Oct 03 05:18 |
| r_schestowitz | > | Oct 03 05:18 |
| r_schestowitz | > ...pok! | Oct 03 05:18 |
| r_schestowitz | > | Oct 03 05:18 |
| r_schestowitz | > | Oct 03 05:18 |
| r_schestowitz | > | Oct 03 05:18 |
| r_schestowitz | > [15:21] <XRevan86> But if we get back to logind/elogind, what is the | Oct 03 05:18 |
| r_schestowitz | > alternative that GNOME should have supported as well? | Oct 03 05:18 |
| r_schestowitz | > [15:22] <scientes> logind supports multi-seat | Oct 03 05:18 |
| r_schestowitz | > | Oct 03 05:18 |
| r_schestowitz | > non-answer | Oct 03 05:18 |
| r_schestowitz | > | Oct 03 05:18 |
| r_schestowitz | > [15:22] <scientes> before that was impossible, for years | Oct 03 05:18 |
| r_schestowitz | > | Oct 03 05:18 |
| r_schestowitz | > so was being able to turn your dick into a car, so what? | Oct 03 05:18 |
| r_schestowitz | > | Oct 03 05:18 |
| r_schestowitz | > | Oct 03 05:18 |
| r_schestowitz | > | Oct 03 05:18 |
| r_schestowitz | > [15:23] <scientes> ignored.... | Oct 03 05:18 |
| r_schestowitz | > [15:23] <scientes> /ignore tyril | Oct 03 05:18 |
| r_schestowitz | > | Oct 03 05:18 |
| r_schestowitz | > [15:23] <tyil> "h-he doesn't fall for my obvious ploy, better ignore him | Oct 03 05:18 |
| r_schestowitz | > quickly!!" | Oct 03 05:18 |
| r_schestowitz | > [15:23] <tyil> ok buddy | Oct 03 05:18 |
| r_schestowitz | > | Oct 03 05:18 |
| r_schestowitz | > | Oct 03 05:18 |
| r_schestowitz | > [15:28] <XRevan86> (14:10:44) tyil: my main issue is that the systemd | Oct 03 05:18 |
| r_schestowitz | > fanatics have never had an honest discussion as to why systemd is | Oct 03 05:18 |
| r_schestowitz | > supposedly better than alternatives, and big projects (such as gnome) | Oct 03 05:18 |
| r_schestowitz | > are forcing distros and users to use objectively garbage software | Oct 03 05:18 |
| r_schestowitz | > | Oct 03 05:18 |
| r_schestowitz | > punix! | Oct 03 05:18 |
| r_schestowitz | > | Oct 03 05:18 |
| r_schestowitz | > | Oct 03 05:18 |
| r_schestowitz | > [15:31] <XRevan86> scientes: *You* made it personal first though. | Oct 03 05:18 |
| r_schestowitz | > | Oct 03 05:18 |
| r_schestowitz | > [15:35] <XRevan86> Seemingly this escalated over nothing. | Oct 03 05:19 |
| r_schestowitz | > | Oct 03 05:19 |
| r_schestowitz | > its the horrors of war | Oct 03 05:19 |
| r_schestowitz | > | Oct 03 05:19 |
| r_schestowitz | > | Oct 03 05:19 |
| r_schestowitz | > [15:38] <XRevan86> scientes: What's your opinion on MinceR's view on | Oct 03 05:19 |
| r_schestowitz | > systemd? | Oct 03 05:19 |
| r_schestowitz | > | Oct 03 05:19 |
| r_schestowitz | > [15:41] <XRevan86> tyil: Isn't it a petty remark to claim from the start | Oct 03 05:19 |
| r_schestowitz | > that those who defend systemd are apriori incapable of having an honest | Oct 03 05:19 |
| r_schestowitz | > conversations? | Oct 03 05:19 |
| r_schestowitz | > | Oct 03 05:19 |
| r_schestowitz | > depends on how many times theyve bullshitted you for how many years | Oct 03 05:19 |
| r_schestowitz | > | Oct 03 05:19 |
| r_schestowitz | > | Oct 03 05:19 |
| r_schestowitz | > [15:42] <tyil> they *always* pretend there's only systemd and sysv | Oct 03 05:19 |
| r_schestowitz | > | Oct 03 05:19 |
| r_schestowitz | > [15:42] <tyil> but I can understand I should've worded it differently at | Oct 03 05:19 |
| r_schestowitz | > least to make the remark less arrogant | Oct 03 05:19 |
| r_schestowitz | > [15:44] <tyil> also, in my defense, it's not that I said they *cannot* | Oct 03 05:19 |
| r_schestowitz | > have an honest discussion, it's just that they've never done so in | Oct 03 05:19 |
| r_schestowitz | > public thus far when trying to push for systemd | Oct 03 05:19 |
| r_schestowitz | > | Oct 03 05:19 |
| r_schestowitz | > | Oct 03 05:19 |
| r_schestowitz | > [15:45] <r_schestowitz> diversity seems to be a key problem, it's not | Oct 03 05:19 |
| r_schestowitz | > made to be sufficiently modular | Oct 03 05:19 |
| r_schestowitz | > | Oct 03 05:19 |
| r_schestowitz | > [15:49] <scientes> XRevan86, the base of systemd is a DAG of dependancies | Oct 03 05:19 |
| r_schestowitz | > [15:49] <scientes> this is the only way that makes any sense | Oct 03 05:19 |
| r_schestowitz | > [15:49] <scientes> but if you don't know what a DAG is, you are not | Oct 03 05:19 |
| r_schestowitz | > qualified to discuss it | Oct 03 05:19 |
| r_schestowitz | > [15:49] <XRevan86> scientes: A directed acyclic graph? | Oct 03 05:19 |
| r_schestowitz | > [15:49] <scientes> yes | Oct 03 05:19 |
| r_schestowitz | > | Oct 03 05:19 |
| r_schestowitz | > funnily enough, a dag is also the matted wool on a sheeps tail, which seems appropriate. | Oct 03 05:19 |
| r_schestowitz | > | Oct 03 05:19 |
| r_schestowitz | > https://bbs.archlinux.org/viewtopic.php?id=96316 | Oct 03 05:19 |
| r_schestowitz | > | Oct 03 05:19 |
| -TechBytesBot/#techbytes-bbs.archlinux.org | systemd: Yet Another Init Replacement / GNU/Linux Discussion / Arch Linux Forums | Oct 03 05:19 | |
| r_schestowitz | > wow that is a good url. thanks for the search query, scientes! even the first page (circa 2010) should have given us warning. | Oct 03 05:19 |
| r_schestowitz | > | Oct 03 05:19 |
| r_schestowitz | > [15:52] <tyil> they just block (either personally, or as an instance | Oct 03 05:20 |
| r_schestowitz | > block) whenever you question their stance | Oct 03 05:20 |
| r_schestowitz | > | Oct 03 05:20 |
| r_schestowitz | > i think hes talking about systemd people using mastodon to prevent people questioning systemd? just like the debian mailing lists did. or was he talking about the bug list? | Oct 03 05:20 |
| r_schestowitz | > | Oct 03 05:20 |
| r_schestowitz | > [15:54] <tyil> scientes: I do, and even if I didn't, the answer is 1 | Oct 03 05:20 |
| r_schestowitz | > search query away, so it's kinda stupid to make that the "terms" of | Oct 03 05:20 |
| r_schestowitz | > being able to discuss things with you | Oct 03 05:20 |
| r_schestowitz | > | Oct 03 05:20 |
| r_schestowitz | > exactly. | Oct 03 05:20 |
| r_schestowitz | > | Oct 03 05:20 |
| r_schestowitz | > [15:54] <tyil> you're just making up arbitrary silly rules to be | Oct 03 05:20 |
| r_schestowitz | > *allowed* to discuss things with you | Oct 03 05:20 |
| r_schestowitz | > | Oct 03 05:20 |
| r_schestowitz | > code of conduct | Oct 03 05:20 |
| r_schestowitz | > | Oct 03 05:20 |
| r_schestowitz | > [15:54] <scientes> its not 1 search query away | Oct 03 05:20 |
| r_schestowitz | > | Oct 03 05:20 |
| r_schestowitz | > it fucking was | Oct 03 05:20 |
| r_schestowitz | > | Oct 03 05:20 |
| r_schestowitz | > [15:57] <tyil> you wanted a discussion, I raise my personal issues | Oct 03 05:20 |
| r_schestowitz | > agaisnt systemd, it doesn't really matter if you think those are born | Oct 03 05:20 |
| r_schestowitz | > out of stupidity or anything else, those are issues I have with systemd, | Oct 03 05:20 |
| r_schestowitz | > hence I raise them when someone wants issues | Oct 03 05:20 |
| r_schestowitz | > [15:57] <tyil> that you don't consider them valid or whatever doesn't | Oct 03 05:20 |
| r_schestowitz | > change the fact that I find those to be issues with systemd | Oct 03 05:20 |
| r_schestowitz | > | Oct 03 05:20 |
| r_schestowitz | > indeed, its pooh pooh fallacy | Oct 03 05:20 |
| r_schestowitz | https://www.minds.com/newsfeed/1025678952291155968?focusedCommentUrn=urn:comment:1025678952291155968:0:0:0:1026237203013529600 | Oct 03 06:48 |
| -TechBytesBot/#techbytes-www.minds.com | Guest Post: Getting Stallman Wrong Means Getting The 21st Century Wrong | Oct 03 06:48 | |
| r_schestowitz | "https://www.minds.com/xxxminibierxxx/ Stephen Colbert is a Clown South Park did IT" | Oct 03 06:48 |
| -TechBytesBot/#techbytes-www.minds.com | xxxminibierxxx | Minds | Oct 03 06:48 | |
| r_schestowitz | https://www.minds.com/newsfeed/1026076039848194048?focusedCommentUrn=urn:comment:1026076039848194048:0:0:0:1026118100284022784 | Oct 03 06:48 |
| -TechBytesBot/#techbytes-www.minds.com | How many people think #pelosi #impeachment move is designed to shoehorn the idea that #trump is afraid only of #biden and therefore Biden must be nominated? | Oct 03 06:48 | |
| r_schestowitz | '"I think it's just further proof that the Democratic party has lost it's mind, and are driving away ANY sane people from the party, and ensuring a Trump 2020 victory. #walkaway" | Oct 03 06:48 |
| r_schestowitz | https://www.minds.com/newsfeed/1026052881963347968?focusedCommentUrn=urn:comment:1026052881963347968:0:0:0:1026055419456499712 | Oct 03 06:48 |
| -TechBytesBot/#techbytes-www.minds.com | When LexisNexis makes a mistake, you pay for it | Oct 03 06:48 | |
| r_schestowitz | "1984 brother :)" | Oct 03 06:48 |
| r_schestowitz | https://www.minds.com/newsfeed/1025819105999503360?focusedCommentUrn=urn:comment:1025819105999503360:0:0:0:1025990172720132096 | Oct 03 06:49 |
| r_schestowitz | "Only in clown world is very ng people off the street into a federal housing shelter called 'putting people on detention centers'" | Oct 03 06:49 |
| -TechBytesBot/#techbytes-www.minds.com | Donald Trump's Repugnant New Attack on the Homeless | Oct 03 06:49 | |
| r_schestowitz | https://www.minds.com/newsfeed/1025819849875865600?focusedCommentUrn=urn:comment:1025819849875865600:0:0:0:1025988396850114560 | Oct 03 06:49 |
| r_schestowitz | "Only in clown world do people call rolling back executive oversight, regulation, and orders "regime change"'" | Oct 03 06:49 |
| -TechBytesBot/#techbytes-www.minds.com | For Trump, Regime Change Begins at Home - CounterPunch.org | Oct 03 06:49 | |
| r_schestowitz | https://www.minds.com/newsfeed/1025823059736158208?focusedCommentUrn=urn:comment:1025823059736158208:0:0:0:1025987557691518976 | Oct 03 06:50 |
| -TechBytesBot/#techbytes-www.minds.com | Veritable Uprising or The (Faux) Real Thing™: Greta and Climate Activism in a Wilderness of Projections - CounterPunch.org | Oct 03 06:50 | |
| r_schestowitz | "It's amazing how the author of this article can simultaneously believe that capitalists are "greenwashing" the climate movement but not realize that the movement was nothing more than a bogus stunt to get people to trust corporations." | Oct 03 06:50 |
| r_schestowitz | "There is no climate crisis, and no, socialism/Communism is not the answer. (Climate scientists openly admit that the Earth is not ending in 12 years, that their climate activism is for socialist reasons)" | Oct 03 06:50 |
| r_schestowitz | >> I've changed the wordpress account to E-mail | Oct 03 08:10 |
| r_schestowitz | >> | Oct 03 08:10 |
| r_schestowitz | > In which context? | Oct 03 08:10 |
| r_schestowitz | > | Oct 03 08:11 |
| r_schestowitz | > I was able to log in using the old username and password: | Oct 03 08:11 |
| r_schestowitz | > | Oct 03 08:11 |
| r_schestowitz | > http://techrights.org/wp-login.php | Oct 03 08:11 |
| -TechBytesBot/#techbytes-techrights.org | Techrights › Log In | Oct 03 08:11 | |
| r_schestowitz | > | Oct 03 08:11 |
| r_schestowitz | > I've changed that password now and am able to log out and in again. Do | Oct 03 08:11 |
| r_schestowitz | > you mean another context? | Oct 03 08:11 |
| r_schestowitz | In this context exactly. You're also admin in the wiki, with the same username (different CMS, obviously). :-) | Oct 03 08:11 |
| r_schestowitz | What I was thinking is, you can receive from me (method not yet agreed on) the contents of a new post (title, slug/URL, except, body) ,the daily IRC post. I always follow the links and examine closely to check nothing sensitive gets published and no error/mixup exists. That's what took me a long time. But above all checking that the links work is key; I check file sizes when I generate the files and I've just done some testing, comparing | Oct 03 08:11 |
| r_schestowitz | the scripts' output with what I did manually again and again. | Oct 03 08:11 |
| r_schestowitz | You needn't do much but press publish, after checking the sourced HTML files work OK (accessible) and look OK. | Oct 03 08:11 |
| r_schestowitz | I sometimes put there words we exchange, albeit redacted, no names, no clues as to who that is. People feel as though we're showing them what's going on. And we do. But without putting anyone at risk. | Oct 03 08:11 |
| r_schestowitz | >> You needn't do much but press publish, after checking the sourced HTML | Oct 03 08:30 |
| r_schestowitz | >> files work OK (accessible) and look OK. | Oct 03 08:30 |
| r_schestowitz | > I can probably manage publishing. But it would be important for the | Oct 03 08:30 |
| r_schestowitz | > necessary things, names, and links to be already redacted fro mthe log | Oct 03 08:30 |
| r_schestowitz | > since I won't be able to judge which ones should be removed. | Oct 03 08:30 |
| r_schestowitz | I already remove them myself. | Oct 03 08:30 |
| r_schestowitz | If something sensitive gets posted, I take note and later on rub it off (this is very, very rare). | Oct 03 08:30 |
| r_schestowitz | It happened before when I pasted the wrong thing. I later removed it (before publishing). | Oct 03 08:30 |
| r_schestowitz | But TBH, the most important thing is, at least at first, to check links work and files are not empty. | Oct 03 08:31 |
| r_schestowitz | After a while we'll see that the links always work, based on the script, and I can set some alert for small-sized files (too small). | Oct 03 08:31 |
| r_schestowitz | Over the years I opened all logs files I had uploaded, then checked 3 things | Oct 03 08:31 |
| r_schestowitz | 1) that the file's name corresponds to its contents (i.e. that it's the right channel; when done manually there were mixups sometimes). | Oct 03 08:31 |
| r_schestowitz | Two aspects to (1): title might be wrong; or channel shown is the wrong one. I think (1) will no longer be an issue if it's all scripted because (1) is about human error. | Oct 03 08:31 |
| r_schestowitz | 2) it starts just after midnight | Oct 03 08:31 |
| r_schestowitz | 3) it ends some time around midnight (scroll down to bottom) | Oct 03 08:31 |
| r_schestowitz | Sometimes some bad charsets can creep in and interrupt the flow. | Oct 03 08:31 |
| r_schestowitz | >> I sometimes put there words we exchange, albeit redacted, no names, no | Oct 03 08:31 |
| r_schestowitz | >> clues as to who that is. People feel as though we're showing them what's | Oct 03 08:31 |
| r_schestowitz | >> going on. And we do. But without putting anyone at risk. | Oct 03 08:31 |
| r_schestowitz | > Ok. But anyone can join the channel and there are probably even | Oct 03 08:31 |
| r_schestowitz | > Microsofters lurking there, logging as well. | Oct 03 08:31 |
| r_schestowitz | If they do, they won't be getting anything that's not already public anyway, except those rare (maybe once a year or twice at most) cases where something gets removed >after< being posted. I usually redact before pasting anything into the channels. | Oct 03 08:31 |
| r_schestowitz | >> I might not always work from home; maybe. We have a terrible boss now, | Oct 03 08:37 |
| r_schestowitz | >> driving away all the staff. | Oct 03 08:37 |
| r_schestowitz | > I had hoped that had gotten better. | Oct 03 08:37 |
| r_schestowitz | At the moment she focuses on bullying a colleague of ours, making him sick. | Oct 03 08:37 |
| r_schestowitz | >> So if I buy a stationary machine it might | Oct 03 08:37 |
| r_schestowitz | >> not suit me in the future. | Oct 03 08:37 |
| r_schestowitz | >> | Oct 03 08:37 |
| r_schestowitz | >> Right now I keep an eye and consider buying a new laptop. | Oct 03 08:37 |
| r_schestowitz | > Here are two based in Europe: | Oct 03 08:37 |
| r_schestowitz | > | Oct 03 08:37 |
| r_schestowitz | > https://www.tuxedocomputers.com/index.php | Oct 03 08:37 |
| r_schestowitz | > | Oct 03 08:37 |
| -TechBytesBot/#techbytes-www.tuxedocomputers.com | TUXEDO Computers | Oct 03 08:37 | |
| r_schestowitz | > https://slimbook.es/en/store | Oct 03 08:37 |
| r_schestowitz | > | Oct 03 08:37 |
| -TechBytesBot/#techbytes-slimbook.es | Welcome to SLIMBOOK | Oct 03 08:37 | |
| r_schestowitz | > However the boards, like those everywhere* else are Chinese. | Oct 03 08:37 |
| r_schestowitz | > | Oct 03 08:37 |
| r_schestowitz | > * Raspberry Pis are designed and manufactured in Wales, but their | Oct 03 08:37 |
| r_schestowitz | > components are Chinese... | Oct 03 08:37 |
| r_schestowitz | I knew it was someone not >really< made here. | Oct 03 08:37 |
| r_schestowitz | >> From dmesg (latest): | Oct 03 08:37 |
| r_schestowitz | > [snip] | Oct 03 08:37 |
| r_schestowitz | > | Oct 03 08:37 |
| r_schestowitz | > I'd look at the smartmontools suite of utilities. That has tools which | Oct 03 08:37 |
| r_schestowitz | > can read the drive own error monitors. A very important point: if | Oct 03 08:37 |
| r_schestowitz | > S.M.A.R.T. tools show drive errors, power down immediately and run, not | Oct 03 08:37 |
| r_schestowitz | > walk, to the store for a replacement. You will lose file contents. The | Oct 03 08:37 |
| r_schestowitz | > corruption can be silent as in the middle of the file where it won't | Oct 03 08:37 |
| r_schestowitz | > show up easily. | Oct 03 08:37 |
| r_schestowitz | I'll try that now. | Oct 03 08:37 |
| <--pidgin_log has quit (Quit: Leaving.) | Oct 03 09:02 | |
| r_schestowitz | > That would be -t instead of -s: | Oct 03 09:04 |
| r_schestowitz | > | Oct 03 09:04 |
| r_schestowitz | > sudo smartctl -t short /dev/sdb1 | Oct 03 09:04 |
| r_schestowitz | sudo smartctl -t short /dev/sdb1 | Oct 03 09:04 |
| r_schestowitz | [sudo] password for roy: | Oct 03 09:04 |
| r_schestowitz | smartctl 6.5 2016-01-24 r4214 [i686-linux-4.4.0-98-generic] (local build) | Oct 03 09:04 |
| r_schestowitz | Copyright (C) 2002-16, Bruce Allen, Christian Franke, www.smartmontools.org | Oct 03 09:05 |
| r_schestowitz | Short offline self test failed [unsupported field in scsi command] | Oct 03 09:05 |
| r_schestowitz | ==== | Oct 03 09:05 |
| r_schestowitz | Wish I knew how seriously this issue is; I think the answer might scare me. | Oct 03 09:05 |
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