(ℹ) Join us now at the IRC channel | ䷉ Find the plain text version at this address (HTTP) or in Gemini (how to use Gemini) with a full GemText version.
| *x-amarsh04 has quit (Ping timeout: 2m30s) | Sep 18 00:30 | |
| *x-amarsh04 (~amarsh04@9rtnvxtj54g72.irc) has joined #techbytes | Sep 18 00:32 | |
| *x-amarsh04 has quit (Quit: Konversation terminated!) | Sep 18 02:34 | |
| *x-amarsh04 (~amarsh04@9rtnvxtj54g72.irc) has joined #techbytes | Sep 18 02:49 | |
| *GNUmoon2 has quit (connection closed) | Sep 18 03:18 | |
| *GNUmoon2 (~GNUmoon@3gs57dmmk9fek.irc) has joined #techbytes | Sep 18 03:18 | |
| *x-amarsh04 has quit (Quit: Konversation terminated!) | Sep 18 03:20 | |
| *x-amarsh04 (~amarsh04@9rtnvxtj54g72.irc) has joined #techbytes | Sep 18 03:25 | |
| *x-amarsh04 has quit (Quit: Konversation terminated!) | Sep 18 03:27 | |
| *x-amarsh04 (~amarsh04@9rtnvxtj54g72.irc) has joined #techbytes | Sep 18 03:28 | |
| *x-amarsh04 has quit (Ping timeout: 2m30s) | Sep 18 04:18 | |
| *x-amarsh04 (~amarsh04@9rtnvxtj54g72.irc) has joined #techbytes | Sep 18 04:29 | |
| *x-amarsh04 has quit (Quit: Konversation terminated!) | Sep 18 04:30 | |
| *x-amarsh04 (~amarsh04@9rtnvxtj54g72.irc) has joined #techbytes | Sep 18 04:30 | |
| *x-amarsh04 has quit (Quit: Konversation terminated!) | Sep 18 04:43 | |
| *x-amarsh04 (~amarsh04@9rtnvxtj54g72.irc) has joined #techbytes | Sep 18 04:47 | |
| *x-amarsh04 has quit (Quit: Konversation terminated!) | Sep 18 04:48 | |
| *x-amarsh04 (~amarsh04@9rtnvxtj54g72.irc) has joined #techbytes | Sep 18 04:48 | |
| *thiel3 has quit (Ping timeout: 2m30s) | Sep 18 05:13 | |
| schestowitz[TR2] | https://www.thelayoff.com/t/1k5bwg1n0 | Sep 18 05:38 |
|---|---|---|
| -TechBytesBot/#techbytes- ( status 403 @ https://www.thelayoff.com/t/1k5bwg1n0 ) | Sep 18 05:38 | |
| schestowitz[TR2] | "I'd like to add one more thing. The Hire Act needs to be solid in terms of potential loopholes. These companies re already engaged with lawyers and counselors to figure out workarounds. | Sep 18 05:38 |
| schestowitz[TR2] | It may reduce "some" but it won't reduce "most". Plus, they will turn around and go south, as they are already doing. | Sep 18 05:38 |
| schestowitz[TR2] | 7 hours ago by Anonymous | Sep 18 05:38 |
| schestowitz[TR2] | | 4 reactions (+4/-0) | Reply | Sep 18 05:38 |
| schestowitz[TR2] | Post ID: @bh+1k5bwg1n0 | Sep 18 05:38 |
| schestowitz[TR2] | +4 | Sep 18 05:38 |
| schestowitz[TR2] | @bf | Sep 18 05:38 |
| schestowitz[TR2] | So, further info: | Sep 18 05:38 |
| schestowitz[TR2] | Hiring costs in the US, including salaries and operating expenses, are significantly higher than in India, especially for technology roles. | Sep 18 05:38 |
| schestowitz[TR2] | Even with recent increases in Indian salaries, the base compensation for equivalent roles remains much lower when adjusted for purchasing power parity (PPP). This provides a massive cost advantage for companies that outsource work to India. | Sep 18 05:38 |
| schestowitz[TR2] | The difference in cost can be substantial. For example, some reports estimate that hiring in India can reduce costs by nearly 60% compared to the US. Other data show US software engineers earning an average of $140,000 annually, versus $45,000 for their Indian counterparts, though the gap for entry-level roles is much wider. | Sep 18 05:38 |
| schestowitz[TR2] | My point about the HIRE Act is this: | Sep 18 05:38 |
| schestowitz[TR2] | The bill would impose a 25% tax on payments made by US companies to foreign service providers and make those payments non-deductible. Analysts estimate this could increase the effective cost of outsourcing by 58% or more, nearly doubling the cost for some firms. | Sep 18 05:38 |
| schestowitz[TR2] | While significant, this increase is not large enough to erase the entire cost disparity for most roles, given the initial low cost of labor in India. | Sep 18 05:38 |
| schestowitz[TR2] | Other Factors: The bill's outcome is uncertain, as it is still in the legislative process. If passed, companies may explore workarounds, such as adjusting payments or shifting contracts to Indian vendors. | Sep 18 05:38 |
| schestowitz[TR2] | So, basically: | Sep 18 05:38 |
| schestowitz[TR2] | Even with a 25% outsourcing tax, the fundamental economic drivers of lower labor costs in India are likely to keep the cost gap intact for the foreseeable future. The decision to hire in the US or India involves more than just cost, including factors like skill specialization, time-zone alignment, and communication. However, a US company's decision will still primarily come down to a cost-benefit analysis that, for many roles, cont | Sep 18 05:38 |
| schestowitz[TR2] | inues to favor outsourcing. | Sep 18 05:38 |
| schestowitz[TR2] | TO SUMMARIZE: The Hire Act is not enough. | Sep 18 05:38 |
| schestowitz[TR2] | 7 hours ago by Anonymous | Sep 18 05:38 |
| schestowitz[TR2] | | 4 reactions (+4/-0) | Reply | Sep 18 05:38 |
| schestowitz[TR2] | Post ID: @bg+1k5bwg1n0 | Sep 18 05:38 |
| schestowitz[TR2] | +5 | Sep 18 05:38 |
| schestowitz[TR2] | @b9 | Sep 18 05:38 |
| schestowitz[TR2] | You said: "The HIRE Act is coming. I just wish the tariff on offshoring was 200% instead of 25%." | Sep 18 05:38 |
| schestowitz[TR2] | I'd suggest: It has to be an equalizer, meaning, if you hire in India you need to pay the difference or delta in salaries and benefits in the form of taxes (tariffs). You also need to prove that you tried to hire locally and you couldn't find the talent. But AT LEAST, pay the delta of what it would cost in the US - India (Latin America, etc) cost in the form of taxes (tariffs). Example, if it costs 100 to hire in the US, but 25 to | Sep 18 05:38 |
| schestowitz[TR2] | hire in India (or Argentina, Mexico, Costa Rica, Brazil, Uruguay, etc) then there is a 75 delta, that has to be taxed (tariffed). | Sep 18 05:38 |
| schestowitz[TR2] | It is not our fault that there is a lack of opportunity in many other countries, we would love to help, but we need to think about American workers first. | Sep 18 05:38 |
| schestowitz[TR2] | Does it mean that all American workers are lovely? Nope, but right now, a lot of good people are being affected. | Sep 18 05:38 |
| schestowitz[TR2] | The entire issue is that the people being outsourced (offshoring and near-shoring) are not geniuses, they are not Elon Musks or Einsteins or whatever. They are just cheap. | Sep 18 05:38 |
| schestowitz[TR2] | Just my 2 cents... | Sep 18 05:38 |
| schestowitz[TR2] | 7 hours ago by Anonymous | Sep 18 05:38 |
| schestowitz[TR2] | | 5 reactions (+5/-0) | Reply | Sep 18 05:38 |
| schestowitz[TR2] | Post ID: @bf+1k5bwg1n0 | Sep 18 05:38 |
| schestowitz[TR2] | +5 | Sep 18 05:38 |
| schestowitz[TR2] | Since, it can take more than 6 Indian engineers to do the work one American engineer can do, I think, the ratio for jobs openings is 50/50. | Sep 18 05:38 |
| schestowitz[TR2] | 7 hours ago by Anonymous | Sep 18 05:38 |
| schestowitz[TR2] | | 5 reactions (+5/-0) | Reply | Sep 18 05:38 |
| schestowitz[TR2] | Post ID: @be+1k5bwg1n0 | Sep 18 05:38 |
| schestowitz[TR2] | +4 | Sep 18 05:38 |
| schestowitz[TR2] | @b9 | Sep 18 05:38 |
| schestowitz[TR2] | Yeah, the Hire Act got blocked in the Senate (for now). Senator Jacky Rosen said they’re still serious about cracking down on outsourcing and supporting American workers, but they want to do it in a bipartisan way instead of fast-tracking it without debate. | Sep 18 05:38 |
| schestowitz[TR2] | Here's the YouTube where it shows the debate. | Sep 18 05:38 |
| schestowitz[TR2] | YouTube link: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_TSOmU6Wj8g | Sep 18 05:38 |
| schestowitz[TR2] | 8 hours ago by Anonymous | Sep 18 05:38 |
| schestowitz[TR2] | | 4 reactions (+4/-0) | Reply | Sep 18 05:38 |
| schestowitz[TR2] | Post ID: @bc+1k5bwg1n0 | Sep 18 05:38 |
| schestowitz[TR2] | +3 | Sep 18 05:38 |
| schestowitz[TR2] | The HIRE Act is coming. I just wish the tariff on offshoring was 200% instead of 25%. | Sep 18 05:38 |
| schestowitz[TR2] | " | Sep 18 05:38 |
| -TechBytesBot/#techbytes-@Invidious: https://invidious.weblibre.org/watch?v=_TSOmU6Wj8g | Sep 18 05:40 | |
| -TechBytesBot/#techbytes-SSL: unable to obtain common name from peer certificate ( status 0 @ https://invidious.weblibre.org/watch?v=_TSOmU6Wj8g ) | Sep 18 05:40 | |
| schestowitz[TR2] | https://lxer.com/module/forums/t/36950/ | Sep 18 05:51 |
| -TechBytesBot/#techbytes-LXer: One minor hiccup: How to Upgrade to Linux Mint 22.2 from Mint 22.1 | Sep 18 05:51 | |
| schestowitz[TR2] | "I upgraded four Linux Mint 22.1 computers to version 22.2 with no problems, but all upgrades caused a small inconvenience. If you installed the Synaptic package manager (no longer installed by default) using the Software Manager program prior to upgrading to 22.2, the upgrade will delete Synaptic. It can be re-installed after the upgrade. | Sep 18 05:51 |
| schestowitz[TR2] | A minor irritant easily corrected. | Sep 18 05:51 |
| schestowitz[TR2] | Not a complaint, just a footnote. " | Sep 18 05:51 |
| *liberty_box has quit (Ping timeout: 2m30s) | Sep 18 07:46 | |
| *rianne_ has quit (Ping timeout: 2m30s) | Sep 18 07:47 | |
| *rianne has quit (Ping timeout: 120 seconds) | Sep 18 07:48 | |
| *thiel3 (~thiel3@u8mz5ab9qj5ra.irc) has joined #techbytes | Sep 18 11:33 | |
| *rianne_ (~rianne@5amey95y5hvya.irc) has joined #techbytes | Sep 18 14:48 | |
| *rianne (~rianne@freenode-l69.7ip.nqbf2d.IP) has joined #techbytes | Sep 18 14:48 | |
| *liberty_box (~liberty@5amey95y5hvya.irc) has joined #techbytes | Sep 18 15:04 | |
| *psydroid3 (~psydroid@yu29f4abyrsnc.irc) has joined #techbytes | Sep 18 16:34 | |
| *x-amarsh04 has quit (Quit: Konversation terminated!) | Sep 18 16:57 | |
| *x-amarsh04 (~amarsh04@9rtnvxtj54g72.irc) has joined #techbytes | Sep 18 17:08 | |
| schestowitz[TR2] | https://www.thelayoff.com/t/1k57k4772 | Sep 18 19:17 |
| -TechBytesBot/#techbytes- ( status 403 @ https://www.thelayoff.com/t/1k57k4772 ) | Sep 18 19:17 | |
| schestowitz[TR2] | "" | Sep 18 19:17 |
| schestowitz[TR2] | 'India Is The Workforce For The World', Asserts McKinsey & Company's Top Brass | Sep 18 19:17 |
| schestowitz[TR2] | What Arvind and IBM have been doing at an increasing pace. Video here => https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3Ga-krrYgak | Sep 18 19:17 |
| schestowitz[TR2] | No thank you. IBM used to be great. Now it is not even mediocre. The G Man Gerstner cut his teeth at McKinsey which is telling US companies to gut their US workers. Makes Jack Welch of GE look like a saint compared to the carnage IBM has inflicted on it's US workers for 4 decades once the G Man came in 4-1-93. | Sep 18 19:17 |
| schestowitz[TR2] | " | Sep 18 19:17 |
| -TechBytesBot/#techbytes-@Invidious: https://invidious.snopyta.org/watch?v=3Ga-krrYgak | Sep 18 19:17 | |
| -TechBytesBot/#techbytes--> redirect.invidious.io | Select instance - Invidious | Sep 18 19:17 | |
| schestowitz[TR2] | https://www.thelayoff.com/t/1k5bwg1n0 | Sep 18 19:22 |
| -TechBytesBot/#techbytes- ( status 403 @ https://www.thelayoff.com/t/1k5bwg1n0 ) | Sep 18 19:22 | |
| schestowitz[TR2] | " | Sep 18 19:23 |
| schestowitz[TR2] | Two changes have occurred since IBM purchased Redhat, BUT they are fundamental in understanding how IBM manages the business. | Sep 18 19:23 |
| schestowitz[TR2] | IBM will purchase innovation vs developing it in house. | Sep 18 19:23 |
| schestowitz[TR2] | Costs are everything, and must be driven to the absolute lowest no matter the consequences. | Sep 18 19:23 |
| schestowitz[TR2] | This is all you need to know. Look at any IBM decision since 2019 and ask yourself Did IBM buy innovation (cost of purchase doesn’t matter as IBM will make it up in being a distributor) and what costs were impacted by that innovation decision (eg could they lower existing legacy costs with the new purchased innovation via outsourcing , offshoring, partnering, layoffs, pip, etc etc The answer to both of these questions is easy | Sep 18 19:23 |
| schestowitz[TR2] | since 2019. IBM did both, and the consequences were devastating to the existing workforce. NOTE the repetitive workforce in India will feel this pain going forward as AI is just an excuse to lower costs. Will the skilled workforce in India grow? Of course because they cost less (approx 1/3 vs first world skills) There you have it IBM’s go forward strategy for the next 2-5 years. | Sep 18 19:23 |
| schestowitz[TR2] | Offshore repetitive and/or skill | Sep 18 19:23 |
| schestowitz[TR2] | 4 hours ago by Anonymous | Sep 18 19:23 |
| schestowitz[TR2] | | 2 reactions (+2/-0) | Reply | Sep 18 19:23 |
| schestowitz[TR2] | Post ID: @er+1k5bwg1n0 | Sep 18 19:23 |
| schestowitz[TR2] | +2 | Sep 18 19:23 |
| schestowitz[TR2] | @e5 | Sep 18 19:23 |
| schestowitz[TR2] | You said something that I don't want to ignore and I forgot to recognize in my previous cost: the impact on America's middle class. | Sep 18 19:23 |
| schestowitz[TR2] | It appears our fellow Canadian colleagues are now understanding (perhaps? hopefully?) what we were saying all along? Canada is now seeing the consequences (the UK as well). Higher unemployment, tech jobs being taken away, youth employment is practically non-existent... the unemployment lines in Canada are way too long even for starter jobs. BTW, 20% of recent immigrants in Canada live below the poverty line. | Sep 18 19:23 |
| schestowitz[TR2] | 5 hours ago by Anonymous | Sep 18 19:23 |
| schestowitz[TR2] | | 2 reactions (+2/-0) | Reply | Sep 18 19:23 |
| schestowitz[TR2] | Post ID: @ed+1k5bwg1n0 | Sep 18 19:23 |
| schestowitz[TR2] | +3 | Sep 18 19:23 |
| schestowitz[TR2] | @e5 | Sep 18 19:23 |
| schestowitz[TR2] | Oh, yes, fully aware and so is the gov at this point in time. So it can be changed if they want to in a matter of minutes. It's one of those things that everyone knows, so we are in a "just fix it already" moment. | Sep 18 19:23 |
| schestowitz[TR2] | It wasn't always like that up until 15+ years ago. Indians have received the majority of H1Bs approvals every year since at least 2010. The trend of Indian citizens dominating H1B approvals has been consistent over the past decade and a half. | Sep 18 19:23 |
| schestowitz[TR2] | No other country has a change, between India and(73%-74%) and China (12%-14.3%), no other country has a chance. Good workers with intelligence and real degrees are left out. | Sep 18 19:23 |
| schestowitz[TR2] | But my point about making them pay for the delta stands. If they want to hire a bunch of people somewhere else with fake certifications, fake experience, fake talent, fake IQ be my guest, but pay the delta. All they have is that they are cheap. | Sep 18 19:23 |
| schestowitz[TR2] | I did notice that many Indians (and sometimes other outsourced resources) became / are increasingly arrogant and condescending (without the quality of work). they save money, but it comes at a cost. | Sep 18 19:23 |
| schestowitz[TR2] | 6 hours ago by Anonymous | Sep 18 19:23 |
| schestowitz[TR2] | | 3 reactions (+3/-0) | Reply | Sep 18 19:23 |
| schestowitz[TR2] | Post ID: @ec+1k5bwg1n0 | Sep 18 19:23 |
| schestowitz[TR2] | +4 | Sep 18 19:23 |
| schestowitz[TR2] | @bf "You also need to prove that you tried to hire locally and you couldn't find the talent" | Sep 18 19:23 |
| schestowitz[TR2] | That's how it is today with H1B and PERM and it's the reason why 80% of jobs posted on LinkedIn are fake jobs that the poster has no intention of filling with a new hire American. It's too easily gamed, we need to do much more to stop our middle class from being destroyed. | Sep 18 19:23 |
| schestowitz[TR2] | 7 hours ago by Anonymous | Sep 18 19:23 |
| schestowitz[TR2] | | 4 reactions (+4/-0) | Reply | Sep 18 19:23 |
| schestowitz[TR2] | Post ID: @e5+1k5bwg1n0 | Sep 18 19:23 |
| schestowitz[TR2] | +6 | Sep 18 19:23 |
| schestowitz[TR2] | @bh | Sep 18 19:23 |
| schestowitz[TR2] | they will spend a fortune on lawyers to find loopholes | Sep 18 19:23 |
| schestowitz[TR2] | thank goodness the money wasn't spent on actual employees | Sep 18 19:23 |
| schestowitz[TR2] | that would create something new and useful | Sep 18 19:23 |
| schestowitz[TR2] | " | Sep 18 19:23 |
| *liberty_box has quit (Ping timeout: 2m30s) | Sep 18 20:47 | |
| *rianne_ has quit (Ping timeout: 2m30s) | Sep 18 20:47 | |
| *rianne has quit (Ping timeout: 120 seconds) | Sep 18 20:48 | |
| *psydroid3 has quit (Quit: KVIrc 5.2.6 Quasar http://www.kvirc.net/) | Sep 18 22:02 | |
Generated by irclog2html.py 2.6 | ䷉ find the plain text version at this address (HTTP) or in Gemini (how to use Gemini) with a full GemText version.