●● IRC: #techbytes @ Techrights IRC Network: Tuesday, July 27, 2021 ●● ● Jul 27 [00:31] *blitzed has quit (connection closed) [00:35] *blitzed (~blitzed@y9b36hdsarnu8.irc) has joined #techbytes ● Jul 27 [01:02] schestowitz https://twitter.com/glynmoody/status/1419604661582053382 [01:02] -TechBytesBot/#techbytes-@glynmoody: I fear it's too late for that... https://t.co/3gQDcIjE9I [01:02] -TechBytesBot/#techbytes-@schestowitz: NEWS #CommonDreams #UN Chief Reminds Leaders of Need for 'Clear and Unambiguous Commitment' to 1.5C https://t.co/Hc8S2JqptG [01:07] *psydruid (~psydruid@jevhxkzmtrbww.irc) has left #techbytes [01:25] *rianne_ has quit (Ping timeout: 2m30s) [01:26] *liberty_box has quit (Ping timeout: 2m30s) [01:33] *rianne_ (~rianne@qhduu73fcjmdn.irc) has joined #techbytes [01:34] *liberty_box (~liberty@qhduu73fcjmdn.irc) has joined #techbytes [01:52] *psydruid (~psydruid@jevhxkzmtrbww.irc) has joined #techbytes ● Jul 27 [02:11] *psydruid (~psydruid@jevhxkzmtrbww.irc) has left #techbytes [02:46] *rianne_ has quit (Ping timeout: 2m30s) [02:47] *liberty_box has quit (Ping timeout: 2m30s) [02:49] *rianne_ (~rianne@qhduu73fcjmdn.irc) has joined #techbytes [02:50] *liberty_box (~liberty@qhduu73fcjmdn.irc) has joined #techbytes ● Jul 27 [03:13] *rianne_ has quit (Ping timeout: 2m30s) [03:13] *liberty_box has quit (Ping timeout: 2m30s) [03:24] *GNUmoon2 has quit (Ping timeout: 2m30s) [03:24] *GNUmoon2 (~GNUmoon@6h225yswjsmje.irc) has joined #techbytes [03:40] *liberty_box (~liberty@qhduu73fcjmdn.irc) has joined #techbytes [03:40] *rianne_ (~rianne@qhduu73fcjmdn.irc) has joined #techbytes ● Jul 27 [04:13] *DaemonFC has quit (connection closed) [04:37] *blitzed has quit (Ping timeout: 2m30s) [04:39] *blitzed (~blitzed@c2g9y73sffpdk.irc) has joined #techbytes [04:51] *psydruid (~psydruid@jevhxkzmtrbww.irc) has joined #techbytes ● Jul 27 [06:11] *psydroid_ (~psydroid@cqggrmwgu7gji.irc) has joined #techbytes [06:25] *rianne_ has quit (Ping timeout: 2m30s) [06:25] *liberty_box has quit (Ping timeout: 2m30s) [06:34] *rianne_ (~rianne@qhduu73fcjmdn.irc) has joined #techbytes [06:34] *liberty_box (~liberty@qhduu73fcjmdn.irc) has joined #techbytes ● Jul 27 [07:23] *bridge has quit (Ping timeout: 2m30s) [07:24] *psydruid has quit (Ping timeout: 2m30s) [07:24] *bridge (~bridge@sp6mg7ktjfurg.irc) has joined #techbytes [07:24] *irc.techrights.org gives channel operator status to bridge [07:26] *psydruid (~psydruid@jevhxkzmtrbww.irc) has joined #techbytes ● Jul 27 [08:36] *GNUmoon2 has quit (Ping timeout: 2m30s) ● Jul 27 [09:17] *GNUmoon2 (~GNUmoon@vd4283mvfyqgk.irc) has joined #techbytes ● Jul 27 [12:12] *DaemonFC (~DaemonFC@hcz4kwb5fv9w4.irc) has joined #techbytes [12:21] *DaemonFC has quit (Ping timeout: 2m30s) [12:24] blitzed !COFFEE [12:31] *DaemonFC (~DaemonFC@hcz4kwb5fv9w4.irc) has joined #techbytes ● Jul 27 [13:06] *DaemonFC has quit (connection closed) [13:06] *DaemonFC (~DaemonFC@hcz4kwb5fv9w4.irc) has joined #techbytes [13:23] *DaemonFC has quit (Ping timeout: 2m30s) [13:26] *DaemonFC (~DaemonFC@hcz4kwb5fv9w4.irc) has joined #techbytes [13:36] *liberty_box has quit (Ping timeout: 2m30s) [13:36] *rianne_ has quit (Ping timeout: 2m30s) [13:40] *DaemonFC has quit (Ping timeout: 2m30s) [13:44] *DaemonFC (~DaemonFC@hcz4kwb5fv9w4.irc) has joined #techbytes [13:46] *rianne_ (~rianne@qhduu73fcjmdn.irc) has joined #techbytes [13:46] *liberty_box (~liberty@qhduu73fcjmdn.irc) has joined #techbytes [13:49] schestowitz http://patentblog.kluweriplaw.com/2021/07/21/trade-union-to-epo-president-campinos-quash-unlawful-strike-restrictions/ [13:49] -TechBytesBot/#techbytes-patentblog.kluweriplaw.com | Trade union to EPO president Campinos: Quash unlawful strike restrictions - Kluwer Patent Blog [13:49] schestowitz " [13:49] schestowitz Attentive Obsever [13:49] schestowitz JULY 22, 2021 AT 5:26 AM [13:49] schestowitz I do not want to sound cynical but the tenant of the 10th floor will done barely more than what is absolutely necessary to abide by the decision of the ILO-AT. [13:49] schestowitz It should however not be forgotten that he was appointed in order to restore social peace at the EPO. Napoleon 4th could at least keep the contenance when discussing with staff, this is not the case with his successor. [13:49] schestowitz In this context he has reached a level of detestation by staff quicker than Napoleon 4th and this says a lot. [13:49] schestowitz It should also not be forgotten that those who inspired the rules for industrial action now quashed are still having their jobs at the EPO. [13:49] schestowitz Last but not least, the budget for 2021 provided 6, in words six, million Euros for external legal advice for conflicts with staff. [13:49] schestowitz It is a pity to see the EPO being run in the wall by a bunch of pseudo managers whose incompetence is difficult to top and decide about things without knowing or disregarding what consequences their decision can have at the coal front. [13:49] schestowitz The worse is that with its New Normal the bunch of people thinking they are the bees knees, want to create an EPO 2.0 which is in blatant contradiction with the EPC as it stands! [13:49] schestowitz One wonders if the hidden agenda of Napoleon 4th and of his successor is not to destroy the EPO ,. [13:49] schestowitz LightBlue [13:49] schestowitz JULY 22, 2021 AT 9:30 AM [13:49] schestowitz Maybe, instead of asking the EPO for its reaction, Kluwer should ask the national delegates to the Administrative Council for their reaction. [13:49] schestowitz anonymous [13:49] schestowitz JULY 22, 2021 AT 5:02 PM [13:49] schestowitz From which pool of candidates, do you think, the EPO recruits its brightest and highest-ranking officials ? [13:49] schestowitz Attentive Observer [13:49] schestowitz JULY 23, 2021 AT 8:56 AM [13:49] schestowitz Former members for the BA are submitted to a two years cooling off after the end of their duties. [13:49] schestowitz A similar cooling off period should be imposed to members of the AC if they want to occupy a job at the EPO. [13:49] schestowitz It is a scandal to see that the present VP5 and the PD 5.2 moved straight from the AC to DG5. [13:49] schestowitz No wonder the tail is wagging the dog. [13:49] schestowitz Attentive Obsever [13:49] schestowitz JULY 22, 2021 AT 2:10 PM [13:49] schestowitz The delegates to the AC have in their wast majority not the faintest clue about what is going on at the EPO and are gullible to any nonsense proffered by the administration. [13:49] schestowitz They do not want the cooperation budget for their country and their personal perks to be reduced. [13:49] schestowitz If it comes from the administration it must be good. [13:49] schestowitz Now you might understand better why the tail is wagging the dog! [13:49] schestowitz francis hagel [13:49] schestowitz JULY 23, 2021 AT 2:30 PM [13:49] schestowitz @Attentive Observer [13:49] schestowitz My problem with your repeated disparagements of the former President is not so much that they are inappropriate, it is that they tend to obfuscate the essential issue rightly raised in your comment, which is the potential shift to EPO 2.0. This issue should not blurred by personal allegations (cronyism, conflicts of interest, incompetence and the like). [13:49] schestowitz There is unquestionably a drive toward 2.0 simply as a result of the developments of IT technology, and the pandemic is acting as a accelerator. What could that imply for the EPO ? [13:49] schestowitz In short, there may be the option attractive to some to turn the EPO into a decentralised network of national franchises. The EPO would become akin to a brand, with a central unit dealing with corporate management and producing the rules (Boards of Appeal, Legal Directorate, guidelines), the tools, training tutorials, and national franchises using the trademark and the tools. National franchises could be close to NPOs for obvious convenience and [13:49] schestowitz likely open to local influence. This would be the end of the EPO in its centralised structure. [13:50] schestowitz It seems clear that within the AC some of the Member States could favour this kind of evolution. This seems to be the case for the UK and Northern European countries. I would see here the result of national cultures, each fully respectable. Thus I think the issue deserves a serious conversation, as dispassioned and objective and therefore as disconnected from personal considerations as possible. There has been a precedent with the debate about [13:50] schestowitz decentralisation in 2008. [13:50] schestowitz As you can see, I am an incurable optimist. [13:50] schestowitz Concerned observer [13:50] schestowitz JULY 26, 2021 AT 12:24 PM [13:50] schestowitz Francis, if there is indeed a move to (unlawfully) create an EPO 2.0, how could that possibly be achieved in the absence of corruption within the EPO and the AC? That is, if those running and overseeing the EPO were insistent upon staying within the limits of their powers, and were not tempted (by opportunities for self-enrichment) to exceed those powers, then there would be no need to fear the creation of an EPO 2.0 by way of any mechanism other [13:50] schestowitz than a Diplomatic Conference. [13:50] schestowitz From this perspective, I think that it is important to shine a light upon instances of (apparent) corruption within the EPO and the AC as promptly as possible on the basis that doing so might help to disinfect the EPO before the rot sets in too deeply. On the other hand, certain recent developments at the EPO could be argued to point a truly pervasive rot, and so perhaps complaining about corruption is a futile exercise now. Also, it makes [13:50] schestowitz one speculate how different things might have been if more within the profession had raised the alarm during the tenure of the previous President (who, unlike the current incumbent, was careful to avoid taking actions that caused immediate displeasure and alarm amongst users of the EPO). We shall never know. [13:50] schestowitz Justice denied [13:50] schestowitz JULY 23, 2021 AT 12:27 PM [13:50] schestowitz Just to emphasise the snails pace of the IOLAT: already in 2015 a Dutch appellate court ruled that parts of the EPOs strike regulations violated human rights (see e.g. https://ipkitten.blogspot.com/2015/02/can-suepo-sue-epo-it-now-seems-so.html). This decision was later overturned by the Dutch High Court, referring among others to the EPOs immunity and the possibility to go to the ILOAT, see https://www.epo.org/news-events/news/2017/20170120. [13:50] -TechBytesBot/#techbytes-ipkitten.blogspot.com | Can SUEPO sue EPO? It now seems so ... - The IPKat [13:50] schestowitz html. [13:50] -TechBytesBot/#techbytes-www.epo.org | EPO - Statement by the European Patent Office on the ruling by the Supreme Court of the Netherlands [13:50] schestowitz So: Dutch courts, up until the High Court: 4 years. Final decision ILOAT: 8 years [13:50] schestowitz Concerned observer [13:50] schestowitz JULY 23, 2021 AT 2:13 PM [13:50] schestowitz The decision by the Dutch supreme court is perhaps one of the worst that I have ever seen. [13:50] schestowitz As I recall, the essence of that decision is that, for the purpose of enforcing the right to association (including the right to collective bargaining), the supreme court held that recourse to the ILO AT is an adequate alternative to national courts. Recent events have proven precisely how wrong-headed that conclusion was. That is, the after-the-fact decision by ILO AT now casts doubt upon the legitimacy of provisions that were passed and in force [13:50] schestowitz whilst unlawful restrictions on the right to strike were in force. However, ILO AT will not have either the power or the inclination to rule that those questionable provisions are indeed unlawful. [13:50] schestowitz In other words, forcing EPO employees to seek recourse only via ILO AT effectively eviscerates their right to collective bargaining with their employer BEFORE the imposition of legally questionable measures. It is impossible to see how this does anything other than breach the fundamental rights of EPO staff. Shame on the Dutch supreme court for rubber-stamping this denial of justice. [13:50] schestowitz BlaBlaBlaBlaBla [13:50] schestowitz JULY 24, 2021 AT 6:06 PM [13:50] schestowitz Abusive restrictions on strike deductions (and organisation of strikes), abusive restrictions on communication means imposed on SUEPO (de facto limiting information of members hence of all EPO Staff), no SUEPO recognition (despite ca. 50% of EPO staff being SUEPO member), time limited contracts (surely to enhance the independence of view of workers), refusal so far to redress the cases of Mr Petiaud in Munich and Lund in The Hague (experts nominated [13:50] schestowitz by the Staff Representation who were the first to be abusively sanctioned by Battistelli et al.), to be continued [13:50] schestowitz But all is fine and let us praise Mr Campinos who proudly trumpets during administrative council meetings that social dialogue at EPO is high on EPOs agenda [13:50] schestowitz The Unitary Patent in the hands of the EPO who breached fundamental rights? [13:50] schestowitz JULY 25, 2021 AT 6:36 AM [13:50] schestowitz 18 days after the announcement of the judgments not a single reaction from the administration. Usually Laurent, Head of the Employment Law.Department is keen on making an Intranet Communiqu celebrating the victories of the EPO against it staff at ILOAT. Now, its dead silence. And silence means the sinister advisors of Campinos are thinking about how NOT to execute the judgments. The EPO has lost its dignity and is not afraid of another [13:50] schestowitz embarassment. A sound organization, would have already announced the reimbursement of the unlawful and punitive strike deductions of 1/20th. [13:50] schestowitz Also, an internal audit would already be running in order to understand how the internal injustice system could have been so wrong in rejecting all internal appeals with its Chair Sir Paul Mahoney who actually worked as a Judge at the European Court of Union Rights: the strike deductions of 1/20th are proportionate he dared to write. [13:50] schestowitz But of course, this would require work from Mr Campinos who also shows very little interests in staff rights and just asks Nellie Simon (VP4) to sign whatever Gilles Requena (Chier International Legal Officer) and lodie Bergot (Chief Policy Officer) bring to him. The latter are still the ones running the EPO while Campinos is enjoying his EPO 2.0 bubble from a country where he can wear shorts. Battistelli missed the Seine in Paris, Campinos misses [13:50] schestowitz the sun from Alicante, but they both missed the point by ignoring all warnings as to the legality of the strike regulations. And if they knew and continued nevertheless, then that is a gangster attitude. [13:50] schestowitz How can the EU even think to continue to entrust the EPO with the Unitary Patent? [13:50] schestowitz Attentive Observer [13:50] schestowitz JULY 26, 2021 AT 10:54 AM [13:50] schestowitz @Concerned observer, [13:50] schestowitz I cannot but agree with you. [13:50] schestowitz ILO-AT only checks whether the procedures have been correctly applied, but barely ever says that the measures itself are illegal or incorrect. [13:50] schestowitz It is only in very clear-cut cases, like here, that the procedure is considered flawed. [13:50] schestowitz In a sense it is understandable as the ILO-AT does not want to engage in political discussions. [13:51] schestowitz The difference with the CJEU is is significant. After negotiations with the union, the EU Commission accepted that salary increases should be within a given range, lets say 1-4%. [13:51] schestowitz The EU Commission decided that the increase would be 1,1%. The CJEU decided that this was not correct and the increase will be 2,5%. [13:51] schestowitz It is unthinkable that the ILO-AT ever comes to such a conclusion. [13:51] schestowitz The same will apply to the salary and pensions reductions decided by the EPO management on the basis of a financial study which proposed various scenarios. The EPO management chose eventually the worse one for staff, claiming that there is no guarantee about the level of annual fees in the future, which is plainly ridiculous. [13:51] schestowitz When on top of this, 6 millions have been foreseen in the budget 2022 for legal advice in disputes with staff, the conclusion is quickly drawn about the will of the EPO management to restore social peace. [13:51] schestowitz EPO staff have actually no real means of redress as the decisions of the Internal Appeals Committee (IAC), even the unanimous ones, can be set aside by the president without any reason. Non unanimous decisions the more so. [13:51] schestowitz It leaves thus staff members of the EPO to go to Geneva, which is a long and tedious process. [13:51] schestowitz The ILO-AT is literally submerged by complaints to the EPO, and cannot any longer deal with this influx of cases from the EPO. And the access to the IAC has been made more difficult with the creation of an administrative review before having access to the IAC. [13:51] schestowitz That on the other hand, OP by ViCo have to be mandatory in order to deliver justice quickly is adding insult to injury to staff members who have to wait for years before the ILO-AT takes a decision, which on top of it is rarely positive for the above reasons. [13:51] schestowitz But the EPO is immune, and being immune is equated by the president and its minions that they benefit of impunity. [13:51] schestowitz It is sickening to see how such incompetent, but would-be managers, drive the EPO into the wall, with on top of it, the benediction of the AC. 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