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| -->mmu_man (~revol@vaf26-2-82-244-111-82.fbx.proxad.net) has joined #techrights | Jan 01 00:02 | |
| XRevan86 | Happy New Year! | Jan 01 00:02 |
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| XRevan86 | 2020-01-01 00:03 UTC | Jan 01 00:02 |
| cubexyz | damn, I was going to refer everyone to kuro5hin.org | Jan 01 00:04 |
| cubexyz | unfortunately it's gone now | Jan 01 00:04 |
| cubexyz | google hitachi flora prius for the BeOS story | Jan 01 00:05 |
| matlock | cubexyz: Cool, I did not know about the Hitachi | Jan 01 00:07 |
| XRevan86 | https://youtu.be/A-Y2OCyk-Pc | Jan 01 00:08 |
| -TechrightsBot-tr/#techrights-Enjoykin — Дорогие Юные Друзья - YouTube | Jan 01 00:08 | |
| cubexyz | it was back in 1998 | Jan 01 00:09 |
| cubexyz | ok, found some better info: | Jan 01 00:10 |
| cubexyz | http://www.hitachi.com/New/cnews/E/1998/981111B.html | Jan 01 00:10 |
| -TechrightsBot-tr/#techrights-www.hitachi.com | NEWS RELEASE -- November 11, 1998 | Jan 01 00:10 | |
| cubexyz | now I'm not sure how many units were shipped | Jan 01 00:11 |
| cubexyz | probably not many | Jan 01 00:11 |
| cubexyz | they might have only shipped in Japan | Jan 01 00:12 |
| XRevan86 | Dual-boot, heh | Jan 01 00:12 |
| cubexyz | nowadays if you want non-M$ there's android and chromebooks | Jan 01 00:13 |
| cubexyz | so I'd say things have improved in the last 20 years | Jan 01 00:13 |
| XRevan86 | I'd say things got worse in the last 10 years | Jan 01 00:14 |
| cubexyz | really? why is that? | Jan 01 00:14 |
| XRevan86 | cubexyz: Secure Boot | Jan 01 00:14 |
| cubexyz | XRevan86, the real question is if you can turn it off | Jan 01 00:15 |
| XRevan86 | cubexyz: indeed, which has also become a real problem | Jan 01 00:15 |
| XRevan86 | And that's an additional little problem that one has to face | Jan 01 00:16 |
| XRevan86 | but that's minor to having to enable developer mode on a chromebook | Jan 01 00:16 |
| XRevan86 | * minor compared to | Jan 01 00:16 |
| cubexyz | you can overwrite the firmware | Jan 01 00:17 |
| XRevan86 | cubexyz: After enabling developer mode | Jan 01 00:17 |
| cubexyz | or just don't buy any hardware where everything is secret | Jan 01 00:18 |
| XRevan86 | I think you'll agree that Chromebooks are trying even less to look like PCs | Jan 01 00:18 |
| cubexyz | there was a bunch of different barebone computers, just trying to remember them all | Jan 01 00:21 |
| cubexyz | MSI Cubi, ASUS Vivomini, Intel NUC, Gigabyte Brix, Zotac ZBOX and Shuttle mini | Jan 01 00:21 |
| cubexyz | now I don't really know how good they were | Jan 01 00:21 |
| cubexyz | but there are a ton of non-M$ devices now | Jan 01 00:21 |
| cubexyz | gigabyte helped the coreboot guys a lot, so it might be a good choice | Jan 01 00:22 |
| cubexyz | amazon sells the brix I think | Jan 01 00:23 |
| cubexyz | google isn't linux hostile, so I'm not too worried about chromebooks | Jan 01 00:26 |
| cubexyz | there's some VM thing that launches Debian in chromeOS now | Jan 01 00:28 |
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| matlock | The Linux VM in ChromeOS is a Debian image powered by Canonical's LXD inside of KVM weirdly enough | Jan 01 00:40 |
| matlock | I haven't had to disable secure boot to boot a Linux distro in a while, there are still some edge cases but most seem to support it now | Jan 01 00:40 |
| schestowitz | Richard Stallman wrote on 01/01/2020 00:39:> > On a positive note, Free software is nowadays used everywhere, it's just | Jan 01 00:47 |
| schestowitz | > > not being called that and it has been leveraged as a low-cost 'cushion' | Jan 01 00:47 |
| schestowitz | > > for DRM, surveillance, militarism etc. Think companies like FB and | Jan 01 00:47 |
| schestowitz | > > Netflix (GNU at their back ends). | Jan 01 00:47 |
| schestowitz | > | Jan 01 00:47 |
| schestowitz | > Their computers are running their copies of free software, and they | Jan 01 00:47 |
| schestowitz | > get the benefit of freedom -- controlling the things that they do to | Jan 01 00:47 |
| schestowitz | > people. But people will never control what Facebook's server does, or | Jan 01 00:47 |
| schestowitz | > what Netflix's server does, or what Amazon's server does, etc. | Jan 01 00:47 |
| schestowitz | > | Jan 01 00:47 |
| schestowitz | > In order for people to get the benefit of free software, people have | Jan 01 00:47 |
| schestowitz | > to go back to doing their own computing on their own computers, and | Jan 01 00:47 |
| schestowitz | > not letting themselves be controlled by companies' servers. | Jan 01 00:47 |
| matlock | Netflix famously uses FreeBSD on it's back end which I wouldn't think RMS would consider free software | Jan 01 00:50 |
| schestowitz | oh, I see | Jan 01 01:24 |
| cubexyz | RMS is all about the source code so he'd be pro-FreeBSD | Jan 01 01:26 |
| Hail_Spacecake | schestowitz: what did he write that on? | Jan 01 01:26 |
| danielp3344 | more importantly where | Jan 01 01:26 |
| danielp3344 | it's not 2020 here yet :P | Jan 01 01:26 |
| schestowitz | Jan 01 01:27 | |
| cubexyz | really Unix v7 was the template for everything | Jan 01 01:31 |
| MinceR | rms is all about whatever ibm pays him to be all about :> | Jan 01 01:33 |
| danielp3344 | ? | Jan 01 01:34 |
| -viera/#techrights-Tux Machines: Stable kernels 5.4.7, 4.19.92, and 4.14.161 http://www.tuxmachines.org/node/132343#new [https://pleroma.site/objects/f0498521-138a-4c5c-9283-08f5f20c7749] | Jan 01 01:38 | |
| -viera/#techrights-Tux Machines: Making Slackware 14.1 Works with GLIM Multiboot USB http://www.tuxmachines.org/node/132344 [https://pleroma.site/objects/7429c188-124e-476f-8302-e9012f8db7d1] | Jan 01 01:39 | |
| MinceR | e.g. advertising cancerd as "free software" | Jan 01 01:40 |
| -viera/#techrights-Tux Machines: #Android Leftovers http://www.tuxmachines.org/node/132345 [https://pleroma.site/objects/9bf7c02f-3c9a-4004-a873-0b52080f14e8] | Jan 01 01:41 | |
| -viera/#techrights-Tux Machines: More #Android Leftovers http://www.tuxmachines.org/node/132347 [https://pleroma.site/objects/7b7e5455-b0c6-4fdd-8603-b5778985575f] | Jan 01 01:43 | |
| -viera/#techrights-Tux Machines: What is GNU/Linux? http://www.tuxmachines.org/node/132346 [https://pleroma.site/objects/1959a4d3-4b6a-4e5a-9a0f-f91dfc9472c0] | Jan 01 01:44 | |
| danielp3344 | <MinceR "e.g. advertising cancerd as "fre"> systemd? | Jan 01 01:49 |
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| MinceR | yes | Jan 01 01:51 |
| schestowitz | I read that as "concerned" | Jan 01 01:52 |
| schestowitz | http://techrights.org/wiki/index.php?title=Systemdisenfranchised | Jan 01 01:53 |
| -TechrightsBot-tr/#techrights-techrights.org | Systemdisenfranchised - Techrights | Jan 01 01:53 | |
| danielp3344 | MinceR: Is it not free? | Jan 01 01:55 |
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| -viera/#techrights-Tux Machines: Kali Default Non-Root User http://www.tuxmachines.org/node/132348 [https://pleroma.site/objects/dbd829f5-1e99-4952-9ab0-7b5e4d972339] | Jan 01 02:09 | |
| -viera/#techrights-Tux Machines: 4 of the Best Operating Systems for Raspberry Pi to Develop IoT Projects http://www.tuxmachines.org/node/132349 [https://pleroma.site/objects/02dce3e9-9b38-4fdf-97a4-9a6b2613914f] | Jan 01 02:11 | |
| schestowitz | https://www.phoronix.com/forums/forum/phoronix/latest-phoronix-articles/1149288-happy-new-year-a-look-back-at-the-most-popular-linux-content-of-2019#post1149288 | Jan 01 02:13 |
| schestowitz | " | Jan 01 02:13 |
| schestowitz | Thank you Michael! Much appreciated that you took time zones into account. | Jan 01 02:13 |
| schestowitz | I wish you and your family a great 2020! | Jan 01 02:13 |
| -TechrightsBot-tr/#techrights-Happy New Year + A Look Back At The Most Popular Linux Content Of 2019 - Phoronix Forums | Jan 01 02:13 | |
| schestowitz | " | Jan 01 02:13 |
| -viera/#techrights-Tux Machines: Why we need a free desktop http://www.tuxmachines.org/node/132350 [https://pleroma.site/objects/d6b55f44-8a46-4dd0-b3ac-710c95951505] | Jan 01 02:16 | |
| -viera/#techrights-Tux Machines: Monthly/Annual Debian Reports: Sparky, Jonathan McDowell and Chris Lamb http://www.tuxmachines.org/node/132351 [https://pleroma.site/objects/ee6fef5f-19d9-4e19-8429-591605f4f4d5] | Jan 01 02:25 | |
| -viera/#techrights-Tux Machines: Audiocasts/Shows: GNU/Linux Predictions, Nathan Wolf's Noodlings and Happy New Year From Marcel Gagne & Evan Leibovitch http://www.tuxmachines.org/node/132352 [https://pleroma.site/objects/11c59d07-28a4-409c-8182-111dced60a4d] | Jan 01 02:37 | |
| -viera/#techrights-Tux Machines: KDE's Akademy 2019: Reaching personal and community goals http://www.tuxmachines.org/node/132353 [https://pleroma.site/objects/94862d0f-c70e-4cc6-ad7a-c69aaccbc54a] | Jan 01 02:43 | |
| cubexyz | I wonder how Hitachi is doing these days | Jan 01 02:44 |
| DaemonFC[m] | Do they still.make DeathStar hard drives? | Jan 01 02:53 |
| -viera/#techrights-Tux Machines: Programming: 36c3 Perl and Raku Assembly and Python Bits http://www.tuxmachines.org/node/132354 [https://pleroma.site/objects/2de3c30a-e141-4690-a422-b129c377bb62] | Jan 01 02:53 | |
| schestowitz | Fujitsu does servers | Jan 01 02:54 |
| schestowitz | maybe they tell well in Japan | Jan 01 02:54 |
| schestowitz | Hitachi made HDDs that were marked as IBM's | Jan 01 02:54 |
| schestowitz | so maybe they still make things with other company's branding on them | Jan 01 02:55 |
| schestowitz | (maybe they also do lots of military work like Samsung does in SK) | Jan 01 02:55 |
| MinceR | danielp3344: it is not | Jan 01 02:57 |
| DaemonFC[m] | schestowitz I was reading about this weird customized DOS Microsoft did for Zenith. | Jan 01 02:58 |
| danielp3344 | MinceR: why not? | Jan 01 02:58 |
| MinceR | danielp3344: according to https://www.gnu.org/philosophy/free-sw.en.html , "“Free software” means software that respects users' freedom and community." -- cancerd is the opposite of that | Jan 01 02:58 |
| -TechrightsBot-tr/#techrights-www.gnu.org | What is free software? - GNU Project - Free Software Foundation | Jan 01 02:58 | |
| DaemonFC[m] | It says they didn't have an IBM compatible bios, so Microsoft made it work with a Zenith bios and it could run DOS software as long as it does not make pc bios calls. | Jan 01 02:58 |
| DaemonFC[m] | Sounds useless. | Jan 01 02:58 |
| MinceR | the whole purpose of cancerd is to subject Linux users to domination by IBM | Jan 01 02:59 |
| danielp3344 | MinceR: I fail to see how? | Jan 01 02:59 |
| danielp3344 | MinceR: ._O | Jan 01 02:59 |
| schestowitz | it respects the IBM community | Jan 01 02:59 |
| MinceR | lol | Jan 01 02:59 |
| schestowitz | shareholders' community | Jan 01 02:59 |
| danielp3344 | <MinceR "the whole purpose of cancerd is "> ow? | Jan 01 02:59 |
| schestowitz | in scare quotes | Jan 01 02:59 |
| MinceR | so far they've made gnome depend on cancerd | Jan 01 02:59 |
| danielp3344 | how* | Jan 01 02:59 |
| danielp3344 | <MinceR "so far they've made gnome depend"> I was not so sure about that yeah | Jan 01 02:59 |
| danielp3344 | I like GNOME | Jan 01 02:59 |
| MinceR | that's your problem | Jan 01 03:00 |
| DaemonFC[m] | So Z-DOS couldn't even run Lotus 124, which is ironic because they tethered themselves to pc bios and MS-DOS and then Microsoft ran them under with Office. | Jan 01 03:00 |
| schestowitz | GNOME is led by Red Hat still | Jan 01 03:00 |
| DaemonFC[m] | *123 | Jan 01 03:00 |
| schestowitz | they have many of the core devs | Jan 01 03:00 |
| schestowitz | esp. gnome3 | Jan 01 03:00 |
| schestowitz | ubuntu just follows | Jan 01 03:00 |
| MinceR | they've even taken over deadian so they could force cancerd upon more victims | Jan 01 03:00 |
| DaemonFC[m] | So it was kind of like a DOS PC, but strange and incompatible at the same time. | Jan 01 03:00 |
| schestowitz | low-level tooling is all red hat and collabora, few more small companies | Jan 01 03:00 |
| schestowitz | makes you wonder, does ubuntu do anything substantial in gnome? | Jan 01 03:01 |
| MinceR | danielp3344: once they manage to force cancerd on you, they make all the choices for you | Jan 01 03:01 |
| schestowitz | someone who does guest post with us studies gnome in recent weeks, he thinks there's something very sinister there | Jan 01 03:01 |
| danielp3344 | MinceR: Can you be a bit more specific? | Jan 01 03:01 |
| MinceR | they pick your logger daemon (journald), they break screen/dtach/tmux and cron | Jan 01 03:01 |
| danielp3344 | ah | Jan 01 03:01 |
| danielp3344 | MinceR: fork it then | Jan 01 03:02 |
| schestowitz | or use kde? | Jan 01 03:02 |
| MinceR | yeah, that's not a solution either | Jan 01 03:02 |
| schestowitz | gnome has forks | Jan 01 03:02 |
| schestowitz | esp. gnome 2 | Jan 01 03:02 |
| MinceR | since they maintain their source in a state of churn | Jan 01 03:02 |
| superkuh | Yep. It's MATE on all my systems that don't still run gnome2 itself. | Jan 01 03:02 |
| MinceR | you either get to come up with adaptations to the changes they make so software depending on their idiotic APIs can continue working | Jan 01 03:02 |
| MinceR | or you get to port all the changes they make and merge it with your own changes | Jan 01 03:02 |
| MinceR | and you still end up with their fundamentally broken design | Jan 01 03:03 |
| DaemonFC[m] | I actually liked DOS. | Jan 01 03:03 |
| MinceR | and kde is not likely to be a sustainable solution, as they've already intended to depend on cancerd | Jan 01 03:03 |
| DaemonFC[m] | I kept some computers around with FreeDOS as their operating system well into the 2000s. | Jan 01 03:03 |
| MinceR | also, nobody outside ibm understands cancerd | Jan 01 03:03 |
| MinceR | so if you have problems, you get to pay them for a support contract | Jan 01 03:04 |
| MinceR | on the upside, if they like you and you need a change in the configuration, they force that change on everyone else | Jan 01 03:04 |
| DaemonFC[m] | I didn't like Windows because it didn't do much. I just deleted it until Windows 95. | Jan 01 03:04 |
| MinceR | like they did with some arcane mount namespace thing | Jan 01 03:04 |
| MinceR | windows did way too much | Jan 01 03:04 |
| MinceR | and did it all wrong | Jan 01 03:04 |
| MinceR | windows couldn't decide whether it was a windowing system or an operating system | Jan 01 03:05 |
| DaemonFC[m] | I'd say windowing system through 3.1 and operating system starting with 95 on the consumer sku. | Jan 01 03:06 |
| MinceR | it did task scheduling and memory management from the start as well | Jan 01 03:07 |
| MinceR | and hardware abstraction | Jan 01 03:07 |
| MinceR | of course it didn't do any of those things well | Jan 01 03:07 |
| DaemonFC[m] | Disk access in Windows 3.11 for Workgroups. | Jan 01 03:07 |
| DaemonFC[m] | And an internet stack and limited Win32 environment. | Jan 01 03:08 |
| DaemonFC[m] | Far too limited to really use though. | Jan 01 03:08 |
| DaemonFC[m] | Win32s was basically something I only installed to get FreeCell. | Jan 01 03:08 |
| MinceR | they're also trying to remove functionality from Linux and move it to cancerd, to force cancerd on everyone who's using Linux | Jan 01 03:09 |
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| danielp3344 | MinceR: look on the bright side, they'll never move to other OSes | Jan 01 03:10 |
| DaemonFC[m] | The 32-bit MSIE worked on Win32s through version 5, but a 16-but version worked better. | Jan 01 03:10 |
| DaemonFC[m] | *bit | Jan 01 03:11 |
| DaemonFC[m] | I used Netscape though, which was 16-bit. | Jan 01 03:11 |
| MinceR | danielp3344: i'm not so sure of that | Jan 01 03:12 |
| MinceR | after all, microsloth started out deeply tied to winblows as well, and yet now they're in charge of the Linux-Destroying Foundation | Jan 01 03:12 |
| MinceR | also, they can abuse virtualization | Jan 01 03:12 |
| -viera/#techrights-Tux Machines: today's howtos http://www.tuxmachines.org/node/132355 [https://pleroma.site/objects/cc8e33a5-3bcf-44c3-be5d-08ae90cdc648] | Jan 01 03:13 | |
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| MinceR | (and indeed, allegedly that's how they're building Linux into winblows now) | Jan 01 03:19 |
| schestowitz | MinceR: you should see what WSL people tell me | Jan 01 03:31 |
| schestowitz | I ignore them, obviously (to now feed them, for smearing purposes), but they really push MS agenda very hard | Jan 01 03:32 |
| schestowitz | Canonical even hired one of them! | Jan 01 03:32 |
| schestowitz | s/now/not/ | Jan 01 03:32 |
| MinceR | not surprising | Jan 01 03:33 |
| schestowitz | Not anymore, no... | Jan 01 03:33 |
| schestowitz | they closed bug #1 | Jan 01 03:33 |
| schestowitz | wontfix | Jan 01 03:33 |
| schestowitz | will promote vista10 | Jan 01 03:33 |
| schestowitz | MicroShuttleworth | Jan 01 03:34 |
| MinceR | oh, also, they also tried to shoehorn cancerd onto HURD: https://www.gnu.org/software/hurd/open_issues/systemd.html | Jan 01 03:34 |
| schestowitz | MarkSoft | Jan 01 03:34 |
| -TechrightsBot-tr/#techrights-www.gnu.org | systemd | Jan 01 03:34 | |
| <--Firee has quit (Quit: lolmoi) | Jan 01 03:39 | |
| schestowitz | https://imgflip.com/memetemplate/203550943/Everyone-worships-a-god | Jan 01 03:49 |
| -TechrightsBot-tr/#techrights-Everyone worships a god Blank Template - Imgflip | Jan 01 03:50 | |
| matlock | cubexyz I am not faulting anyone for supporting FreeBSD, just interesting to see RMS lump BSD-licensed in with GNU, based on things he has before about BSD licenses | Jan 01 04:54 |
| matlock | Fujitsu is still pretty active on Sparc and Solaris in the server market weirdly enough | Jan 01 04:56 |
| matlock | Canonical has several devs that contribute to GNOME, like Ken VanDine and Daniel Van Vugt. They found and pushed several performance improvements upstream in the 19.10 cycle: https://discourse.ubuntu.com/t/boosting-the-real-time-performance-of-gnome-shell-3-34-in-ubuntu-19-10/13095?u=d0od | Jan 01 05:00 |
| -TechrightsBot-tr/#techrights-discourse.ubuntu.com | Boosting the Real Time Performance of Gnome Shell 3.34 in Ubuntu 19.10 - Desktop - Ubuntu Community Hub | Jan 01 05:00 | |
| DaemonFC[m] | GNOME performance has been pretty bad from the beginning of 3. | Jan 01 05:03 |
| matlock | The post I linked has a number of interesting tidbits about how GNOME is structured I didn't know and the related performance issues/fixes, worth a peruse | Jan 01 05:08 |
| DaemonFC[m] | It's much better lately. | Jan 01 05:12 |
| DaemonFC[m] | KDE is faster, but too many bugs. | Jan 01 05:12 |
| DaemonFC[m] | Pick your battles. | Jan 01 05:12 |
| matlock | I bounce back and forth between DEs on my Linux machines. KDE is feeling much lighter recently. | Jan 01 05:15 |
| matlock | If you really don't like systemd there is Devuan, Alpine, Void, Guix, Slackware, Artix, Gentoo, CentOS/Scientific Linux 6, and more. If you want a commercial distro with support without systemd you can get free security updates for up to 5 personal machines for free through Ubuntu Advantage for Ubuntu 14.04: https://ubuntu.com/esm | Jan 01 05:34 |
| -TechrightsBot-tr/#techrights-Ubuntu Extended Security Maintenance | Ubuntu | Jan 01 05:34 | |
| DaemonFC[m] | Depends on what you mean by support. | Jan 01 05:52 |
| DaemonFC[m] | Most of Ubuntu sits there rotting with no security patches. | Jan 01 05:52 |
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| oiaohm | matlock: centos and Scientific 7 is systemd. The 6 go end life life nov next year. | Jan 01 06:28 |
| oiaohm | matlock: really the non systemd distributions list is going to get very short to non existent in commercial supported. | Jan 01 06:30 |
| oiaohm | matlock: ubuntu 14.04 with ESM gets you to April 2022.. RHEL 6 if you are paying for it will get you to 2024 without system but that is fairly much the last commercial supported distribution without systemd at that point. | Jan 01 06:34 |
| oiaohm | Also by that point the included software is getting horrible old. | Jan 01 06:35 |
| oiaohm | DaemonFC[m]: I agree most of the non systemd options when you look closely are in the bit rotting mode. Where they are only getting the bare min number of patches possible. | Jan 01 06:38 |
| oiaohm | Gentoo and Guix are technically not in the bit rotting camp. Decent non systemd options I have trouble getting to more than 5 once you scrap out those that are not providing current software. | Jan 01 06:40 |
| superkuh | Cool. I'm signing up to do the 14.04 ESM thing right now. | Jan 01 06:42 |
| -viera/#techrights-Tux Machines: Linux Suggestion for 2020 - Linus Should Grab His Trademark and Abandon the Linux Foundation Like He Did OSDL http://techrights.org/2020/01/01/doing-an-osdl-on-linux-foundation/ [https://pleroma.site/objects/51eedff7-5d5c-4f7a-9df5-f75a0ed1ed6d] | Jan 01 06:55 | |
| oiaohm | superkuh: still does not change that 14.04 will not get current versions of lots of software. | Jan 01 06:55 |
| superkuh | The compiler is mostly new enough that I'm still okay compiling my own. For now. | Jan 01 06:57 |
| oiaohm | superkuh: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/SecurityTeam/ESM/14.04#A14.04_Infrastructure_ESM_Packages Pays to read this page. Everything desktop is basically excluded from support under 14.04 | Jan 01 06:57 |
| -TechrightsBot-tr/#techrights-wiki.ubuntu.com | SecurityTeam/ESM/14.04 - Ubuntu Wiki | Jan 01 06:57 | |
| oiaohm | ESM | Jan 01 06:57 |
| oiaohm | superkuh: heck they are not even going to support using snap packages on Ubuntu 14.04 ESM | Jan 01 06:58 |
| oiaohm | superkuh: Ubunu 14.04 for a lot of usages in basically in I am bit rotting mode. | Jan 01 07:01 |
| superkuh | I understand. I am talking to you on 10.04. | Jan 01 07:01 |
| oiaohm | So well and truly something you should not be using in business. | Jan 01 07:03 |
| superkuh | Yes. | Jan 01 07:03 |
| superkuh | I don't do business. | Jan 01 07:03 |
| oiaohm | Really for how little of Ubuntu is in fact suppoted under ESM its really had to justify paying the money for it. | Jan 01 07:04 |
| superkuh | But for free? Why not. | Jan 01 07:05 |
| oiaohm | Even for free and you are using it as desktop it could still be better to update to newer to get better cups and sound support. | Jan 01 07:07 |
| oiaohm | Not all cases is ESM even worth it for free. | Jan 01 07:08 |
| oiaohm | and using ESM can at time upset distribution update. | Jan 01 07:08 |
| oiaohm | superkuh: basically its one of these things that free that you kind have to think twice about. | Jan 01 07:09 |
| superkuh | I won't be updating, ever. The machine will be 14.04 and win 7 forever. | Jan 01 07:09 |
| superkuh | The only way I will be using new software is building a new machine. Which is any day now. | Jan 01 07:09 |
| oiaohm | That case it fine. | Jan 01 07:09 |
| oiaohm | But if you idea was to update in place that install ESM would have been a really bad idea. | Jan 01 07:10 |
| oiaohm | This is also why I have problems even working out in business why you would be paying for ESM as it basically just a path to more problems instead of facing up to the problems with updating you have now. | Jan 01 07:11 |
| -viera/#techrights-Tux Machines: Tom Interviews Theo de Raadt of the OpenBSD Project http://www.tuxmachines.org/node/132357 [https://pleroma.site/objects/240caa3f-6ca1-4b14-8aac-24863c010b43] | Jan 01 07:11 | |
| -viera/#techrights-Tux Machines: #Android Leftovers http://www.tuxmachines.org/node/132356 [https://pleroma.site/objects/6b56a81f-ea9a-43b8-b2c7-6fe2dbb211c7] | Jan 01 07:19 | |
| -viera/#techrights-Tux Machines: Today in Techrights http://www.tuxmachines.org/node/132358 [https://pleroma.site/objects/632bd305-d2e3-45cf-8902-1de131a2e57a] | Jan 01 08:16 | |
| -viera/#techrights-Tux Machines: How to get started with open source in 2020 http://www.tuxmachines.org/node/132359 [https://pleroma.site/objects/8db818ff-ab1b-4d8a-9647-d087cc13971b] | Jan 01 08:45 | |
| -viera/#techrights-Tux Machines: KDE roadmap for 2020 http://www.tuxmachines.org/node/132360 [https://pleroma.site/objects/c2f89624-e111-45aa-8af9-762200115cee] | Jan 01 09:05 | |
| -viera/#techrights-Tux Machines: today's howtos http://www.tuxmachines.org/node/132361 [https://pleroma.site/objects/dc08e5f5-4f55-4c41-9bbf-72f601c2be6b] | Jan 01 09:11 | |
| -viera/#techrights-Tux Machines: Programming: Perl / Raku and Python http://www.tuxmachines.org/node/132362 [https://pleroma.site/objects/cab3ca31-5d7d-464f-9181-899aeecf6083] | Jan 01 09:16 | |
| schestowitz | https://godotengine.org/article/retrospective-and-future | Jan 01 09:22 |
| -TechrightsBot-tr/#techrights-godotengine.org | Godot Engine - A decade in retrospective and future | Jan 01 09:22 | |
| -viera/#techrights-Tux Machines: Godot Engine - A decade in retrospective and future http://www.tuxmachines.org/node/132363 [https://pleroma.site/objects/0e496627-a68a-4e36-87ed-b82c91fbbb5e] | Jan 01 09:23 | |
| -viera/#techrights-Tux Machines: GNU Chinese Translators Team 2019 summary http://www.tuxmachines.org/node/132364 [https://pleroma.site/objects/099bb071-3ded-4c78-9d76-182b2d65db2e] | Jan 01 09:38 | |
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| scientes | XRevan86, this is kinda an odd question, but do you know a *good* translation of the Koran into Russian? | Jan 01 09:48 |
| scientes | most translations into every language are total shit | Jan 01 09:48 |
| -viera/#techrights-Tux Machines: today's leftovers http://www.tuxmachines.org/node/132365 [https://pleroma.site/objects/b1c9c69d-4950-4f55-9a4d-acc9d4c00f34] | Jan 01 09:49 | |
| scientes | they miss that the book itsself, in 3:6 says that the verses have ambiguities | Jan 01 09:57 |
| scientes | anyways, I should probably just toil my own garden | Jan 01 09:57 |
| scientes | Candide style | Jan 01 09:57 |
| scientes | yeah, nvm | Jan 01 10:05 |
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| scientes | The problem with sucking dicks is that you don't get get anything besides surrounding yourself with other dick suckers. | Jan 01 12:30 |
| scientes | It is like Johnathan Swift's analogy of bureaucracies as a ladder where each person eats the shit of the person above them | Jan 01 12:41 |
| XRevan86 | scientes: I don't. I think there ought to be one. | Jan 01 13:49 |
| XRevan86 | scientes: There are other benefits like acquisition of resources. | Jan 01 13:53 |
| MinceR | https://ircz.de/p/19082917 | Jan 01 14:14 |
| -TechrightsBot-tr/#techrights-ircz.de | IRCZ makes your life worth living Post object | Jan 01 14:14 | |
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| MinceR | https://ircz.de/p/19082823 | Jan 01 14:47 |
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| -TechrightsBot-tr/#techrights-ircz.de | IRCZ makes your life worth living Post object | Jan 01 14:47 | |
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| -viera/#techrights-Tux Machines: Raspberry Pi 4: Chronicling the Desktop Experience – Watching Video – Week 10 http://www.tuxmachines.org/node/132371 [https://pleroma.site/objects/d9994bc8-952d-494b-a058-f8ba40d4ff94] | Jan 01 15:11 | |
| -viera/#techrights-Tux Machines: 5 New Year’s Resolutions for Fans of Linux http://www.tuxmachines.org/node/132372 [https://pleroma.site/objects/77dd383f-f33e-4d59-b772-305fbf43d912] | Jan 01 15:22 | |
| -viera/#techrights-Tux Machines: #Android Leftovers http://www.tuxmachines.org/node/132373 [https://pleroma.site/objects/87f1602a-6fe8-494e-aff4-ec30e2dbc443] | Jan 01 15:22 | |
| matlock | superkuh snaps have been backported to 14.04 with a shim for Upstart | Jan 01 15:30 |
| oiaohm | matlock: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/SecurityTeam/ESM/14.04#A14.04_Infrastructure_ESM_Packages snaps is one of the things ESM clearly mentions they are not going to be making sure their alterations don't break. | Jan 01 15:31 |
| -TechrightsBot-tr/#techrights-wiki.ubuntu.com | SecurityTeam/ESM/14.04 - Ubuntu Wiki | Jan 01 15:31 | |
| oiaohm | matlock: Various packages related to snapd and working with snap packages (not included on installation media) <<< That line. | Jan 01 15:32 |
| oiaohm | matlock: is in the excluded list for support. | Jan 01 15:33 |
| -viera/#techrights-Tux Machines: Happy 50th Birthday To All You Epoch Birthers http://www.tuxmachines.org/node/132374 [https://pleroma.site/objects/fa4e996d-491a-4ace-bcf4-3c4e5babff52] | Jan 01 15:37 | |
| oiaohm | Extend support on distributions do have serous teeth where thee features you can want can be gone. | Jan 01 15:38 |
| MinceR | https://ircz.de/p/19090813 | Jan 01 15:39 |
| -TechrightsBot-tr/#techrights-ircz.de | IRCZ makes your life worth living Post object | Jan 01 15:39 | |
| matlock | xenial is still unofficially getting security updates for snapd from the snapd team, currently on 2.38 which shipped with disco | Jan 01 15:40 |
| MinceR | one shouldn't expect much in the way of "support" on ubuntu anyway | Jan 01 15:40 |
| matlock | Why not? | Jan 01 15:42 |
| oiaohm | matlock: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/XenialXerus/ReleaseNotes Xenial is 16.04 not 14.04 | Jan 01 15:42 |
| -TechrightsBot-tr/#techrights-wiki.ubuntu.com | XenialXerus/ReleaseNotes - Ubuntu Wiki | Jan 01 15:42 | |
| -viera/#techrights-Tux Machines: Programming: Async, GNOME, GNU Hurd and Linux http://www.tuxmachines.org/node/132375 [https://pleroma.site/objects/043cda72-f12f-4fcc-9747-0dbc428d45c4] | Jan 01 15:43 | |
| matlock | oiaohm You are right, I meant trusty | Jan 01 15:43 |
| matlock | See https://launchpad.net/ubuntu/trusty/+source/snapd | Jan 01 15:43 |
| -TechrightsBot-tr/#techrights-launchpad.net | Trusty (14.04) : snapd package : Ubuntu | Jan 01 15:44 | |
| oiaohm | matlock: read closer. | Jan 01 15:45 |
| oiaohm | matlock: note the last update 2019-04-15 it if was been kept curent it should have something in the 10/11 month. | Jan 01 15:46 |
| oiaohm | matlock: so snapd is dead on 14.04 like it or not. | Jan 01 15:46 |
| MinceR | because it comes from people who don't know what they're doing and avoid doing anything beyond rebranding deadian | Jan 01 15:47 |
| matlock | a 6-year-old release being 6 months behind on the latest package is nbd and not dead, snapd works fine on 14.04 | Jan 01 15:47 |
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| oiaohm | matlock: not all snap package do work because some depend on the newer version features that are now not coming that way. | Jan 01 15:50 |
| oiaohm | matlock: basically snapd on 14.04 is dead man walking. The last release of snapd for 14.04 is inside the April 30, 2019 14.04 end of life date. ie2019-04-30 is end of life.for LTS and when ESM starts | Jan 01 15:53 |
| oiaohm | matlock: package building of snapd by ubuntu staff for 14.04 has stopped. | Jan 01 15:53 |
| matlock | ok | Jan 01 15:54 |
| oiaohm | Same with many other possible highly useful packages. | Jan 01 15:54 |
| matlock | ok | Jan 01 15:55 |
| MinceR | if depending on a proprietary server owned by canonical is "highly useful" :> | Jan 01 15:55 |
| oiaohm | MinceR: I was not refering to snapd with highly useful packages. https://wiki.ubuntu.com/SecurityTeam/ESM/14.04#Exclusions Highly useful like all the options to output audio, cups, xorg(x11 server)...... Fairly much ESM maintenance is very restrictive. | Jan 01 16:00 |
| -TechrightsBot-tr/#techrights-wiki.ubuntu.com | SecurityTeam/ESM/14.04 - Ubuntu Wiki | Jan 01 16:00 | |
| oiaohm | ESM stage of 14.04 for desktop usage is fairly much stuffed. | Jan 01 16:01 |
| oiaohm | Sooner or latter something will break and ESM support is not going to help. | Jan 01 16:01 |
| MinceR | ubuntu comes pre-broken :> | Jan 01 16:01 |
| MinceR | defective by design | Jan 01 16:02 |
| matlock | Ubuntu is more than rebranded Debian, it syncs with Debian unstable/testing as part of it's release cycle but it pushes a lot upstream and has a lot of changes that are Ubuntu-specific | Jan 01 16:02 |
| matlock | How is Ubuntu 'pre-broken' or 'defective'? | Jan 01 16:02 |
| MinceR | for one thing, it comes with systemd | Jan 01 16:03 |
| MinceR | which is deeply flawed by design and unstable | Jan 01 16:03 |
| MinceR | allegedly it's even more broken in ubuntu than in ibm's own distros | Jan 01 16:03 |
| MinceR | which would be unsurprising, considering the secretive approach ibm takes with it | Jan 01 16:04 |
| matlock | I recognize it's anecdotal but I like systemd and have never had an issue with it, do not miss writing init scripts for each distro | Jan 01 16:04 |
| MinceR | then you can probably ignore oiaohm's warnings as well | Jan 01 16:05 |
| MinceR | and learn at your own expense | Jan 01 16:05 |
| MinceR | "it hasn't broken for me yet" and ignoring design flaws is the "modern" way | Jan 01 16:06 |
| matlock | I take that back, I did have an issue once, reported it, and Pottering helped me work through it, user error | Jan 01 16:06 |
| MinceR | of course | Jan 01 16:06 |
| MinceR | everything is a user error if you ask poettering | Jan 01 16:06 |
| MinceR | CLOSED WONTFIX | Jan 01 16:07 |
| matlock | It was legit my bad, I found him really nice, nothing like how people portray him | Jan 01 16:07 |
| MinceR | yeah, he's nice if you believe everything he says | Jan 01 16:09 |
| oiaohm | MinceR: I have got a few thing that were first marked closed wontfix with systemd fixed by poettering by being stubborn and asking enough times with more of the real world cases | Jan 01 16:10 |
| MinceR | oiaohm: i wonder how you people deal with the cognitive dissonance caused by that | Jan 01 16:10 |
| matlock | Providing real-world cases of how a bug affects real-world deployments is how you do get bugs prioritized though, nothing wrong with that. A developer willing to revisit a bug with more info is a good thing. | Jan 01 16:12 |
| MinceR | or paying ibm loads of money | Jan 01 16:12 |
| oiaohm | I have not payed many money. | Jan 01 16:12 |
| oiaohm | It was just providing the right details. | Jan 01 16:12 |
| MinceR | worked for others, it seems | Jan 01 16:12 |
| oiaohm | Problem is with poettering working out the detail he need at times so it fixes stuff is tricky. | Jan 01 16:13 |
| MinceR | well, yeah | Jan 01 16:13 |
| oiaohm | I do agree he is not the best maintainer but its not impossible to get stuff fixed. | Jan 01 16:13 |
| MinceR | if you insist on relying on one of the least competent developers on the planet, it gets tricky | Jan 01 16:13 |
| oiaohm | and he does not always do closed wontfix if you magically do a bug report with all the information he needs to see the problem. | Jan 01 16:14 |
| MinceR | (audio:music only) https://vid.pr0gramm.com/2019/12/13/3e8de03e42b35be7.mp4 | Jan 01 16:14 |
| oiaohm | Hello fixed. | Jan 01 16:14 |
| oiaohm | Some project leads are simpler and better to get along with. | Jan 01 16:14 |
| oiaohm | MinceR: put it this way it was better than pointing out a bug in sysvinit init about how selinux was implemented in it and have the bug left untouched for 8 years because there was no maintainer at all. | Jan 01 16:15 |
| MinceR | or you could just not rely on selinux | Jan 01 16:16 |
| oiaohm | That bug worked if selinux was present or not to inject into pid1. | Jan 01 16:16 |
| MinceR | which is an inherently flawed way of doing things anyway | Jan 01 16:16 |
| oiaohm | So not using selinux did not help you. | Jan 01 16:16 |
| oiaohm | MinceR: basically jackass of a project lead that does respond to bug reports even if wrong at times is way better than none. | Jan 01 16:19 |
| MinceR | not necessarily | Jan 01 16:19 |
| MinceR | since in the latter case, the project isn't trying to do everything in the world | Jan 01 16:19 |
| MinceR | even if it breaks, it only breaks one thing | Jan 01 16:19 |
| MinceR | systemd breaks dozens of things | Jan 01 16:20 |
| MinceR | and the jackass won't fix most of it because he can't be made to understand that it's broken in the first place | Jan 01 16:20 |
| matlock | systemd is modular and you can pick and chose the parts you want to use, or replace them. | Jan 01 16:20 |
| -viera/#techrights-Tux Machines: The Face of Linux.com http://techrights.org/2020/01/01/joining-jim-zemlin/ [https://pleroma.site/objects/bdc780bc-78ac-49ea-8b19-05de562e1c89] | Jan 01 16:20 | |
| MinceR | that's a good one | Jan 01 16:20 |
| oiaohm | MinceR: modular was proven by the embedded developers. Now getting distributions to provide it that way is another problem. | Jan 01 16:21 |
| MinceR | like how poettering claimed that process management can't work without journald because they can't figure out something about how the process exited without it | Jan 01 16:21 |
| oiaohm | Note you said claimed. | Jan 01 16:21 |
| MinceR | what if my choice is to use none of the parts? | Jan 01 16:21 |
| matlock | You can pipe systemd component output from journald to your preferred logger | Jan 01 16:22 |
| oiaohm | Under closer checking embedded developers in 2016 found that journald was in fact optional and replacable all the way back to the first version. | Jan 01 16:22 |
| MinceR | yeah, i can have journald shit log entries into something else | Jan 01 16:22 |
| MinceR | what if i don't want to use journald? | Jan 01 16:22 |
| oiaohm | matlock: you don't have to run journld at all. | Jan 01 16:22 |
| oiaohm | MinceR: embedded developers built systemd without journald and it works fine. | Jan 01 16:22 |
| matlock | Good to know | Jan 01 16:22 |
| MinceR | what if i don't want to risk ibm's clients paying ibm to hide or mangle log entries inside journald on my systems? | Jan 01 16:23 |
| oiaohm | and some fedora people found out that could put rsyslog in place of journald and disable jouranld in 2016 and it worked just fine. | Jan 01 16:23 |
| oiaohm | Just really no one before then really tried. | Jan 01 16:23 |
| MinceR | also note that poettering claimed systemd to be "modular" before journald was found by _others_ to be optional | Jan 01 16:23 |
| -viera/#techrights-Tux Machines: http://techrights.org/2020/01/01/slap-on-the-face-from-lf/ [https://pleroma.site/objects/aeb0c737-598c-400d-94e2-20681f7427d6] | Jan 01 16:23 | |
| matlock | If you don't like systemd there are about a dozen active alternative distros without it, but none of them have commercial support because enterprise likes systemd | Jan 01 16:23 |
| MinceR | poettering's idea of "modularity" is dropping a few dozen binaries during the build that all depend on the god daemon | Jan 01 16:24 |
| oiaohm | MinceR: that the thing his modular claim is true. | Jan 01 16:24 |
| MinceR | yeah, thing is, i did use a distro that didn't force systemd on me | Jan 01 16:24 |
| oiaohm | MinceR: you can take that journald remove process apply to first version of systemd and it works.\ | Jan 01 16:24 |
| MinceR | then red hat's people at gnome forced debian to adopt systemd as the only option | Jan 01 16:24 |
| oiaohm | Same with many other parts. | Jan 01 16:24 |
| MinceR | so no, if it's up to the cult of systemd, i don't get to choose what to run | Jan 01 16:25 |
| oiaohm | Modular was true. Poetttering just faild to provide the information to use the modular stuff. | Jan 01 16:25 |
| MinceR | failed or deliberately didn't | Jan 01 16:25 |
| MinceR | just as the code is mostly uncommented and undocumented | Jan 01 16:25 |
| MinceR | because they want you to pay them to make changes | Jan 01 16:25 |
| -viera/#techrights-Tux Machines: Not a Joke: @LinuxFoundation Web Site Rejects #Linux Browsers, Favours #ProprietarySoftware and #Spying http://techrights.org/2020/01/01/slap-on-the-face-from-lf/ the coup deepens. [https://pleroma.site/objects/4352d22c-23a9-4789-9140-d62d6f21aac6] | Jan 01 16:26 | |
| oiaohm | Compared to most redhat code systemd is highly commneted. | Jan 01 16:26 |
| MinceR | it's a good idea to avoid redhat code anywa | Jan 01 16:26 |
| MinceR | y | Jan 01 16:26 |
| oiaohm | Its like the idea systemd need dbus. | Jan 01 16:26 |
| matlock | How did Red Hat 'force' Debian to adopt systemd? | Jan 01 16:27 |
| oiaohm | that was one of the first things embedded developers in 2016 found out was optional from the get go was the dbus. | Jan 01 16:27 |
| MinceR | matlock: much of it is probably not public, but what i've seen is that for some reason debian leaders decided that offering a different default desktop from gnome was not an option | Jan 01 16:28 |
| MinceR | and then gnome was made officially dependent on systemd | Jan 01 16:28 |
| MinceR | iirc funtoo developers developed a patch to gnome that makes it work without systemd, but afaik debian won't use that | Jan 01 16:29 |
| oiaohm | MinceR: did that patch allow starting X11 up without root privillage if person wanted to. | Jan 01 16:29 |
| oiaohm | MinceR: the answer was no. | Jan 01 16:29 |
| matlock | I think they looked at the resources it would require to maintain their own init system and decided they didn't have them, as an independent non-profit that's kind of their prerogative, they wouldn't be helping anyone if an init system drained Debian dry. | Jan 01 16:30 |
| MinceR | they never had their own "init system" | Jan 01 16:30 |
| oiaohm | MinceR: not quite. First alpha version of debian did have their own init system before switching to sysvinit. | Jan 01 16:30 |
| MinceR | sysvinit/rc is not debian's project | Jan 01 16:31 |
| oiaohm | MinceR: the first one was there own .c for init and horrible set of scripts. | Jan 01 16:31 |
| matlock | At the time they would have had to create their own init, OpenRC wasn't as far along, or fork and maintain Upstart, which had issues in itself. | Jan 01 16:32 |
| MinceR | no they wouldn't | Jan 01 16:32 |
| oiaohm | MinceR: that failed to reap zombies at all. | Jan 01 16:32 |
| oiaohm | MinceR: so sysvinit was a upgrade from the alpha debian. | Jan 01 16:32 |
| MinceR | sysvinit/rc existed, openrc existed, s6 existed, busybox existed, runit existed, a ton of other options existed | Jan 01 16:32 |
| oiaohm | Existing does not meany any good. | Jan 01 16:33 |
| MinceR | indeed, especially in the case of your favorite "init system" | Jan 01 16:33 |
| -viera/#techrights-Tux Machines: Security: Debian LTS, "Shitcoin" and Various Patches http://www.tuxmachines.org/node/132376 [https://pleroma.site/objects/599c8961-7ba2-426e-8e46-6f1d89a3101f] | Jan 01 16:33 | |
| oiaohm | MinceR: How many of those are going to group stuff as the future systems were going to require. | Jan 01 16:34 |
| MinceR | what does this sentence even mean | Jan 01 16:34 |
| matlock | Also Debian would be assuming responsibility for maintaining compatibility between all Debian packaged applications and whatever init or inits they selected, that is a massive burden. | Jan 01 16:35 |
| matlock | But the good news is there is Devuan now, so you don't have to use Debian. | Jan 01 16:36 |
| oiaohm | MinceR: https://lwn.net/Articles/418884/ the group scheduder problem started turning up in 2010. | Jan 01 16:36 |
| -TechrightsBot-tr/#techrights-Group scheduling and alternatives [LWN.net] | Jan 01 16:36 | |
| oiaohm | MinceR: by the time debian was looking what init system they would choose this was a well known problem. | Jan 01 16:36 |
| MinceR | oiaohm: and it wasn't solved by systemd | Jan 01 16:37 |
| MinceR | and its proposed solution was extremely immature | Jan 01 16:38 |
| oiaohm | MinceR: this is one of the problem systemd does solve. | Jan 01 16:38 |
| MinceR | no, it is not | Jan 01 16:38 |
| oiaohm | It does. | Jan 01 16:38 |
| MinceR | and their "solution" causes other problems | Jan 01 16:38 |
| oiaohm | By puttting cgroups around services. | Jan 01 16:38 |
| matlock | I don't think Upstart handled service dependencies. runit is used with systemd. | Jan 01 16:38 |
| MinceR | openrc lets you pick your poison | Jan 01 16:38 |
| oiaohm | That provides the schedulder with the information it was needing. | Jan 01 16:38 |
| MinceR | matlock: even LSB's rc handled service dependencies | Jan 01 16:38 |
| MinceR | and runit works fine without systemd | Jan 01 16:39 |
| oiaohm | runit only has cgroups if it intergrated with openrc. | Jan 01 16:39 |
| matlock | Although I think it's possible to use runit without systemd, you probably lose a lot. | Jan 01 16:39 |
| MinceR | cgroups is not even beta quality | Jan 01 16:39 |
| MinceR | yeah, i lose a lot of wasted CPU time, wasted RAM and vulnerabilities | Jan 01 16:39 |
| oiaohm | the basic cgroups without any resorce contreol does not waste very much ram or cpu time. | Jan 01 16:40 |
| MinceR | i lose a web server running as root for the purpose of viewing binary logs, for example | Jan 01 16:40 |
| oiaohm | Basic the bare min cgroups systemd will work with. | Jan 01 16:40 |
| MinceR | cgroups doesn't; systemd does. | Jan 01 16:40 |
| MinceR | cgroups will merely have to be redesigned a few more times until it works | Jan 01 16:40 |
| MinceR | and it will break systemd every time | Jan 01 16:40 |
| MinceR | and you'll alpha-test it on your production systems for ibm | Jan 01 16:41 |
| MinceR | and so will everyone else they've managed to foist their crap on | Jan 01 16:41 |
| oiaohm | placing in groups of cgroups without the add on for resource control if cgroups had stopped there none of the nightmares with cgroups would have existed either. | Jan 01 16:41 |
| MinceR | all in the hope that someday this clusterfuck will be fixed because the people you believe every word of claim that it will | Jan 01 16:42 |
| oiaohm | Really you don't want to admit that systemd was doing something right. | Jan 01 16:42 |
| MinceR | not using a half-baked kernel feature would have avoided all of those nightmares | Jan 01 16:42 |
| MinceR | no, i would admit it if it were true | Jan 01 16:42 |
| oiaohm | cgroup around services so the scheduler does the right thing. | Jan 01 16:42 |
| -->phebus (~phebus@fsf/member/phebus) has joined #techrights | Jan 01 16:42 | |
| matlock | Are you talking about the optional systemd-journal-remote? | Jan 01 16:42 |
| oiaohm | was well baked 5 years before system | Jan 01 16:43 |
| oiaohm | systemd | Jan 01 16:43 |
| MinceR | the only thing they did right was finding a way of getting lots of people to test their half-baked code for them on production systems | Jan 01 16:43 |
| MinceR | not sure what the point was though, as they don't listen to input from anyone anyway | Jan 01 16:43 |
| oiaohm | MinceR: that shedulder guidence bit it the only bit of cgroups in kernel they did not have to rework to make cgroupv2. | Jan 01 16:43 |
| MinceR | matlock: i don't think it was called that | Jan 01 16:44 |
| oiaohm | Yes things would have been way better if systemd had only used the 1 bit of cgroups that in fact worked. | Jan 01 16:44 |
| oiaohm | But they did not. | Jan 01 16:44 |
| MinceR | things would have been way better if people developed their software until it's mature before pushing it to people as alleged "stable" software | Jan 01 16:45 |
| MinceR | and if people didn't destroy a prominent GNU/Linux distribution from the inside to force unwanted software on people | Jan 01 16:45 |
| oiaohm | Linux kernel it self had no formal CI system in 2010 here. | Jan 01 16:45 |
| matlock | Red Hat has the support agreements for 10+ years to back it up though. | Jan 01 16:46 |
| MinceR | testing and release engineering existed well before the invention of CI | Jan 01 16:46 |
| MinceR | matlock: if you trust them, why are you using ubuntu? | Jan 01 16:46 |
| matlock | No one is forced to install anything on Linux. You can roll your own however you want. | Jan 01 16:46 |
| oiaohm | MinceR: testing 2010 Linux parts was also very incompelte. Same with release engineering. | Jan 01 16:46 |
| oiaohm | We have come a long way on that in the past 10 years. | Jan 01 16:47 |
| oiaohm | but we still have a long way to go. | Jan 01 16:47 |
| MinceR | yes, you can "upgrade" your debian 7 to deadian 8 and you just end up with software you didn't want | Jan 01 16:47 |
| MinceR | it's totally voluntary! | Jan 01 16:47 |
| MinceR | oiaohm: Linux even used to have a separate stable branch | Jan 01 16:47 |
| oiaohm | You also got some software at times you did not want going from debian 6 to debian 7. | Jan 01 16:48 |
| MinceR | well before poettering's delusions of competence. | Jan 01 16:48 |
| matlock | No one is forcing you to update to Debian 8. You can stay on 7 and get independent support or switch to other distros. | Jan 01 16:48 |
| MinceR | they attempted to, though | Jan 01 16:48 |
| oiaohm | poettering with pulseaudio in fact got testing into the Linux kernel on the audio stack side. | Jan 01 16:49 |
| MinceR | they were counting on people not paying attention | Jan 01 16:49 |
| MinceR | and many people didn't pay attention | Jan 01 16:49 |
| oiaohm | stable branch of the Linux kernel with many things really has not been stable. | Jan 01 16:49 |
| MinceR | yeah, and we'd be better off if poetteringaudio never existed also | Jan 01 16:49 |
| oiaohm | Because there has not been the testing to make sure it worked. | Jan 01 16:49 |
| matlock | That's like saying Chevy forced me to get Sirius XM in my car because the model that came after mine has it by default. I can not buy the next model, continue servicing my extra car under warranty and then third-party, or buy another car. | Jan 01 16:49 |
| MinceR | ah, the old "there's no absolutely perfect software so let's just fuck up everything in all the ways we can" argument from oiaohm | Jan 01 16:50 |
| oiaohm | I remember going from a stable 2.4 kernel to another stable 2.4 kernel before pulseaudio and having creative sound blaster 16 quite a popular card not work. | Jan 01 16:50 |
| MinceR | matlock: are you sure buying a new car is analogous to a distribution upgrade? | Jan 01 16:50 |
| matlock | In terms of a long-term business decision affecting tens of thousands of dollars, yes. | Jan 01 16:50 |
| matlock | We need to make practical decisions based on the software that exists as-is, not what we all wish it would magically be. | Jan 01 16:51 |
| oiaohm | MinceR: I use to keep around a lot more kernels due to different audio issue than I do now. That dropped when more testing got added on the audio side.. | Jan 01 16:51 |
| matlock | Also I use Ubuntu because I like it. I also work for Canonical. | Jan 01 16:52 |
| MinceR | matlock: yes, deadian should have made such a decision. alas, they didn't. | Jan 01 16:52 |
| MinceR | they made a decision based on deliberate ignorance and delusions | Jan 01 16:52 |
| MinceR | and since canonical doesn't do any real work, ubuntu inherited it | Jan 01 16:52 |
| oiaohm | No I could say that some of your arguement is ignorance to the problem space. | Jan 01 16:53 |
| MinceR | even though shuttlecock claimed he understood that systemd was crap | Jan 01 16:53 |
| MinceR | yes, everyone who disagrees with emperor poettering is merely ignorant | Jan 01 16:53 |
| oiaohm | Also we have the problem lot of people are making init and service management options without understanding the problem space. | Jan 01 16:53 |
| oiaohm | MinceR: not at all. | Jan 01 16:53 |
| MinceR | i should enjoy being "welcomed" to "emergency mode" or whatever on a vc i can't even see | Jan 01 16:53 |
| MinceR | and i should desire my computers "running stop job" instead of shutting down | Jan 01 16:53 |
| oiaohm | Group scheduling issue were not raised by poettering as first. | Jan 01 16:54 |
| oiaohm | Same with tracking processes issue of sevices. | Jan 01 16:54 |
| MinceR | right, he's not alone | Jan 01 16:54 |
| MinceR | he has an entire cabal | Jan 01 16:54 |
| oiaohm | remember upstart attempt to use ptrace to trace services to find leaks. | Jan 01 16:54 |
| MinceR | with people like kay sievers | Jan 01 16:54 |
| oiaohm | ptracing services caused more problems. | Jan 01 16:54 |
| oiaohm | No this is before key sievers even gets into the mix. | Jan 01 16:54 |
| MinceR | upstart was a horrible design, only systemd could make that look good in comparison | Jan 01 16:54 |
| oiaohm | deamontools lead developers had admited in 2005 that fix would take kernel modfications. | Jan 01 16:55 |
| MinceR | and yet daemontools still has a scope | Jan 01 16:55 |
| MinceR | it doesn't try to be a whole OS in one process | Jan 01 16:56 |
| oiaohm | developer admitted it could not work with deamontools until kernel was fixed. | Jan 01 16:56 |
| MinceR | and it doesn't stick a million tentacles into other parts of your system to make it difficult to replace | Jan 01 16:56 |
| MinceR | unlike systemd | Jan 01 16:56 |
| oiaohm | Solution to compete has to work. | Jan 01 16:56 |
| MinceR | but systemd doesn't have to work | Jan 01 16:57 |
| oiaohm | I did not say that MinceR | Jan 01 16:57 |
| oiaohm | systemd has worked around some problems. | Jan 01 16:57 |
| MinceR | if your "init system" can't boot, reap zombies or shutdown reliably that's A-OK, but only if it's called systemd. | Jan 01 16:57 |
| oiaohm | It has caused some problems. | Jan 01 16:57 |
| MinceR | it has caused a massive amount of problems | Jan 01 16:57 |
| oiaohm | How much of that was showing problems that the prior system was just sweaping under rug and pretending was not there. | Jan 01 16:58 |
| MinceR | not much | Jan 01 16:58 |
| oiaohm | Not exactly right. | Jan 01 16:58 |
| oiaohm | Boot issues existed before systemd with sysvinit. shutdown issues existed also before systemd. | Jan 01 16:59 |
| oiaohm | Failure to always reap zombies right also existed before systemd. | Jan 01 16:59 |
| MinceR | how do you "pretend" to be able to shut down? | Jan 01 16:59 |
| oiaohm | In fact we have only just got the kernel feature required to reap zombies correctly. | Jan 01 17:00 |
| MinceR | display goes blank, power LED turns off, yet somehow your computer keeps running? | Jan 01 17:00 |
| oiaohm | pidfd is in fact required so you can reap zombies correctly. freebsd added something equal in 2003. | Jan 01 17:00 |
| oiaohm | Cannot reap zombies that been case for all Linux init options just fails in different ways. | Jan 01 17:01 |
| MinceR | you're making a pretty good case for openbsd, netbsd and dragonflybsd | Jan 01 17:01 |
| oiaohm | MinceR: first reported bug of a debian ssytem shutdown and not turning off was reported 1998. | Jan 01 17:01 |
| oiaohm | openbsd, netbsd and dragonflybsd all lack the freebsd feature | Jan 01 17:02 |
| MinceR | then again, so did poettering and the Microsoft Linux Foundation | Jan 01 17:02 |
| oiaohm | Out of all the bsd out there only one can in fact reap zombies correctly. | Jan 01 17:02 |
| MinceR | they also lack the CoC which ensures that the focus of development is on making crybullies feel nice instead of making the software better. | Jan 01 17:02 |
| oiaohm | OS X managed to remove that feature same with the playstation fork of the freebsd. | Jan 01 17:02 |
| oiaohm | MinceR: zombie point is not really a good one to raise when you are aware how it screwed. | Jan 01 17:03 |
| MinceR | 01 180157 < oiaohm> MinceR: first reported bug of a debian ssytem shutdown and not turning off was reported 1998. | Jan 01 17:04 |
| MinceR | globally. | Jan 01 17:04 |
| MinceR | for me, it was routine on 2 VMs. | Jan 01 17:04 |
| matlock | I focus on improving the software we have, like I focus on meeting users where they are, instead of being angry that things aren't my ideal. | Jan 01 17:04 |
| MinceR | that is, 1 user at 1 company. | Jan 01 17:04 |
| MinceR | there's a massive difference of frequency here. | Jan 01 17:04 |
| oiaohm | MinceR: that 1998 one was inside vmware stuff. | Jan 01 17:04 |
| MinceR | matlock: oh yeah? you're focused on improving sysvinit/rc then? | Jan 01 17:04 |
| oiaohm | MinceR: so I am not exactly sure how new that problem is. | Jan 01 17:05 |
| XRevan86 | https://youtu.be/BLR7NCDQIXQ | Jan 01 17:05 |
| -TechrightsBot-tr/#techrights-Автозак из Камы: Новогодняя реклама которую мы заслужили - YouTube | Jan 01 17:05 | |
| oiaohm | MinceR: different vm solutions managed to lose the power off message. | Jan 01 17:05 |
| oiaohm | MinceR: if that happening it sometimes does not matter what init or service management you are running. | Jan 01 17:05 |
| matlock | MinceR No. I like systemd. If you are passionate about sysvinit you maintain it. Being mad about what other people are doing in free software is pointless. | Jan 01 17:06 |
| MinceR | matlock: interesting. so being angry at things that aren't your ideal was a fine approach until you tossed sysvinit/rc, but now that you have your sacred systemd, suddenly a different approach is required. | Jan 01 17:06 |
| oiaohm | I more see we need to move forwards pidfd and cgroupv2 stuff is kind of required so we have a chance of having service management stuff work. | Jan 01 17:07 |
| MinceR | matlock: maybe you should take an engineering approach to IT instead of a religious one. | Jan 01 17:07 |
| oiaohm | Really pidfd stuff should have come like 2004. | Jan 01 17:07 |
| MinceR | matlock: are you maintaining systemd? | Jan 01 17:07 |
| matlock | MinceR Funny, I would say the same thing about your approach. No, I am not maintaining systemd. | Jan 01 17:07 |
| oiaohm | MinceR: my problems with most of the init/service management options put up against systemd is they fail engineering requirements to work. | Jan 01 17:08 |
| MinceR | matlock: NO U | Jan 01 17:08 |
| oiaohm | I want to see competitors to systemd that you look at and they are being made that they work. | Jan 01 17:08 |
| oiaohm | In all cases. | Jan 01 17:08 |
| MinceR | oiaohm: interesting. is "testing in production" an "engineering" practice then? | Jan 01 17:08 |
| MinceR | oiaohm: you mean you want to see "competitors" to systemd that are exactly like systemd | Jan 01 17:09 |
| MinceR | with all the brokenness of systemd | Jan 01 17:09 |
| oiaohm | testing in production is the Linux kernel model. | Jan 01 17:09 |
| MinceR | systemd is not part of the kernel | Jan 01 17:09 |
| oiaohm | something I want to see change hopefully this decade. | Jan 01 17:09 |
| MinceR | and distributions used to test in testing environments before red hat took over | Jan 01 17:09 |
| matlock | We really should just merge the kernel and systemd. ;-) | Jan 01 17:10 |
| oiaohm | I don't agree with testing in production. | Jan 01 17:10 |
| MinceR | yeah | Jan 01 17:10 |
| MinceR | it's so non-"modern" that there's a separate kernel and PID 1 | Jan 01 17:10 |
| oiaohm | But testing in production has been the Linux kernel development. | Jan 01 17:10 |
| MinceR | there shouldn't even be a user space | Jan 01 17:10 |
| MinceR | everything could be part of the kernel | Jan 01 17:10 |
| oiaohm | So the only way to fix the Linux kernel has been have something in producction that shows it broken. | Jan 01 17:10 |
| MinceR | that way pesky users wouldn't get to choose what applications to install, even | Jan 01 17:10 |
| -viera/#techrights-Tux Machines: HowTos and Videos (Leftovers) http://www.tuxmachines.org/node/132377 [https://pleroma.site/objects/7d847d6e-e883-4169-b567-689b6a9d3b7e] | Jan 01 17:10 | |
| oiaohm | But now we are seeing Linux kernel selftest and kunit tests get into the Linux kernel. | Jan 01 17:11 |
| MinceR | oiaohm: no, it can be demonstrated in a non-production environment | Jan 01 17:11 |
| MinceR | oiaohm: but even if it was necessary to do it in production, it wouldn't be necessary for _everyone_ to test it in production | Jan 01 17:11 |
| oiaohm | MinceR: demoed in non production envorment bugs before 2014 on the Linux kernel were closed with a not a bug stats. | Jan 01 17:11 |
| MinceR | they should have made more noise about that | Jan 01 17:12 |
| MinceR | so we could have known not to bother with Linux anymore | Jan 01 17:12 |
| MinceR | as it is, my switch to various BSDs is delayed by at least 5 years. | Jan 01 17:12 |
| oiaohm | It takes two to tango here. | Jan 01 17:12 |
| oiaohm | Linux kernel side was not doing the right thing and systemd did not do the right thing either. | Jan 01 17:13 |
| MinceR | i don't want to tango, i want to do IT tasks | Jan 01 17:13 |
| MinceR | the only tango i'm interested in is an icon set | Jan 01 17:13 |
| MinceR | well, and a terminal palette | Jan 01 17:13 |
| oiaohm | It was this 2019 when we started seeing the Linux kernel developers talk about we need unified CI and not to just accept patches and hope users test them and report bugs if they are wrong. | Jan 01 17:14 |
| MinceR | by the way, there's even a well-tested excuse for moving everything to the kernel, it comes from microsloth: "performance" | Jan 01 17:14 |
| MinceR | and just like in the systemd case, you don't actually have to have an actual performance improvement as a result | Jan 01 17:14 |
| matlock | What does it signal to new potential users when some of it's most vocal advocates also trash it all day? | Jan 01 17:14 |
| MinceR | most people don't mind | Jan 01 17:14 |
| MinceR | matlock: who cares? | Jan 01 17:14 |
| matlock | Who cares about new users? | Jan 01 17:15 |
| MinceR | systemd demonstrates perfectly what happens when you manage to attract the masses to an OS that used to work well. | Jan 01 17:15 |
| -->rianne (~liberty@host81-152-238-96.range81-152.btcentralplus.com) has joined #techrights | Jan 01 17:15 | |
| oiaohm | Horrible systemd development model is basically they mirrors the Linux kernel development model that had been running since 1993. | Jan 01 17:15 |
| MinceR | people like poettering appear and fuck it up. | Jan 01 17:15 |
| MinceR | and then you get to start all over. | Jan 01 17:15 |
| oiaohm | Lack of quality engenering class development the linux world has massively lacked. | Jan 01 17:16 |
| MinceR | if the choice is between my OS remaining usable, reliable, secure and free but not having many users vs it turning into systemd and attracting thousands of winblows users, i'll take the former every time. | Jan 01 17:16 |
| oiaohm | Opps. | Jan 01 17:16 |
| matlock | Some people want Linux to be built and used a very specific way for them and if it's not then it's garbage. That's not only bad for the community and engineering, it runs counter to the principles of free software. | Jan 01 17:16 |
| MinceR | oiaohm: yes, but not to the degree the microshit/sun/oracle world lacked it | Jan 01 17:17 |
| oiaohm | Openbsd sells the idea of being reliable/secure and free but they lack means to correctly send message between services something really basic. | Jan 01 17:17 |
| <--rianne__ has quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) | Jan 01 17:17 | |
| matlock | Yup, exactly, perfect example. | Jan 01 17:17 |
| MinceR | matlock: i don't think having control over one's own computer is "very specific" | Jan 01 17:17 |
| XRevan86 | https://xkcd.com/2249 | Jan 01 17:17 |
| -TechrightsBot-tr/#techrights-xkcd: I Love the 20s | Jan 01 17:17 | |
| oiaohm | MinceR: we have had a lot of things sold to us without the proper evidence. | Jan 01 17:17 |
| MinceR | XRevan86: lol | Jan 01 17:18 |
| matlock | If someone shows up at your house and forces you to install something on your computer that takes away your control you should call the police. | Jan 01 17:18 |
| MinceR | matlock: i doubt the police will help me against microshit and their Restricted Boot | Jan 01 17:19 |
| MinceR | if anything, the police (and the state) serves megacorporations like microshit | Jan 01 17:19 |
| oiaohm | MinceR: https://www.slideshare.net/ennael/kernel-recipes-2019-pidfds-process-file-descriptors-on-linux page 6 the prior art for pidfd and when you read it like you got to kidding it been that bad. | Jan 01 17:20 |
| MinceR | even the state's empty posturing about anti-trust this, anti-monopoly that is just empty posturing | Jan 01 17:20 |
| -TechrightsBot-tr/#techrights-www.slideshare.net | Kernel Recipes 2019 - pidfds: Process file descriptors on Linux | Jan 01 17:20 | |
| MinceR | including the pretense that forcing microsuck to offer boxed winblows with idiot exploiter or media player removed at the same price as the full version somehow fixed their monopoly abuses of competing browsers and media players | Jan 01 17:20 |
| -viera/#techrights-Tux Machines: Links 1/1/2020: PineBook Benchmarks, Bison 3.5 and Septor 2020 http://techrights.org/2020/01/01/septor-2020/ [https://pleroma.site/objects/3932523c-8950-46e9-8ac5-f64f3b647530] | Jan 01 17:21 | |
| matlock | You mean the 5 seconds it takes to disable secure boot in your BIOS, in the computer you voluntarily paid for that came with it? | Jan 01 17:21 |
| MinceR | there's no BIOS in it, it's UEFI | Jan 01 17:21 |
| MinceR | and how long it takes varies | Jan 01 17:21 |
| MinceR | since they've been gradually making it more and more difficult for some time now | Jan 01 17:22 |
| MinceR | and i don't see how voluntarily paying for the computer should it make it acceptable to limit how i am allowed to use my own property | Jan 01 17:22 |
| -viera/#techrights-Tux Machines: BaldPhone is an Open-Source Launcher for Elderly People http://www.tuxmachines.org/node/132378 [https://pleroma.site/objects/fc12cad3-e7fc-4c0c-921b-46d508d407d8] | Jan 01 17:24 | |
| matlock | You bought a computer with secure boot and are mad it comes with this optional, relatively fast and easy to disable feature that is actually there to improve security. | Jan 01 17:24 |
| matlock | When there are computers who don't come with it or you could just disable it and move on with your life. | Jan 01 17:25 |
| XRevan86 | matlock: Vendors tend not to add "Secure Boot can be disabled" in their brochures | Jan 01 17:25 |
| matlock | https://docs.microsoft.com/en-us/windows-hardware/manufacture/desktop/disabling-secure-boot | Jan 01 17:26 |
| -TechrightsBot-tr/#techrights-docs.microsoft.com | Disabling Secure Boot | Microsoft Docs | Jan 01 17:26 | |
| XRevan86 | matlock: And devices in which Secure Boot absolutely cannot be disabled is a banal reality. | Jan 01 17:26 |
| MinceR | matlock: Restricted Boot is usually not advertised. neither is how to disable it. | Jan 01 17:26 |
| MinceR | matlock: and a while ago microsloth actually mandated the simple on/off option to be removed from UEFI setup | Jan 01 17:27 |
| MinceR | and replaced with some method to delete some key to do the same thing | Jan 01 17:27 |
| XRevan86 | matlock: It used to be a Windows certification requirement to have Secure Boot with an option to disable it. | Jan 01 17:27 |
| MinceR | matlock: and no, it does not improve security | Jan 01 17:27 |
| matlock | I can even disable Secure Boot on my Microsoft Surface devices. | Jan 01 17:27 |
| MinceR | being locked into the world's least secure OS does not improve security. | Jan 01 17:27 |
| XRevan86 | matlock: The optionality of Secure Boot requirement has since then been lifted. | Jan 01 17:27 |
| MinceR | even the requirement was temporarily there only due to external pressure | Jan 01 17:28 |
| MinceR | they required the opposite on ARM devices running winblows | Jan 01 17:28 |
| matlock | But I haven't had to disable Secure Boot to boot a Linux distro in a long time. Most distros now support it, usually obscure and older ones which don't. | Jan 01 17:28 |
| MinceR | good for you | Jan 01 17:28 |
| XRevan86 | matlock: Now try Gentoo | Jan 01 17:28 |
| MinceR | and it sounds like it's because you don't even boot Linux | Jan 01 17:28 |
| matlock | Wait, doing something in Gentoo is harder than in other distributions? I am shocked. | Jan 01 17:29 |
| MinceR | and of course distros that don't come from microsuck's bootlickers (red hat, canonical, deadian) are "obscure" | Jan 01 17:29 |
| XRevan86 | matlock: The point is that the only easy way to get Linux to boot is to get a pre-built image from a distributor. | Jan 01 17:30 |
| XRevan86 | Lightweight tivoisation | Jan 01 17:30 |
| MinceR | and who knows what that pre-built image really contains? | Jan 01 17:31 |
| matlock | Yes, it is harder to boot Linux if you build it by hand from scratch. | Jan 01 17:31 |
| MinceR | it was deliberately made harder by microsloth | Jan 01 17:32 |
| MinceR | and states just allowed it to happen | Jan 01 17:32 |
| MinceR | while posturing as the defenders of the free market | Jan 01 17:32 |
| XRevan86 | matlock: Isn't it annoying that one needs someone else's approval to get their OS to run? | Jan 01 17:32 |
| XRevan86 | or else jump through hoops to add one's own signing key into Secure Boot if the vendor added such an option | Jan 01 17:33 |
| scientes | matlock, that was a show when I was very young | Jan 01 17:35 |
| scientes | and it was really stupid | Jan 01 17:35 |
| matlock | The adoption of secure UEFI is an improvement over BIOS. Linux distros adopted it. Microsoft had vendors insert a disable option in the mean time while they did. | Jan 01 17:36 |
| scientes | oh yeah, the whole point of secureboot was to make it not worth the effort to run Linux | Jan 01 17:36 |
| MinceR | no, it is not | Jan 01 17:36 |
| scientes | and of course vectors would fuck it up and make it impossible to turn off | Jan 01 17:36 |
| XRevan86 | https://marc.info/?l=reiserfs-devel&m=157780043509663 Reiser5. You'd think they'd rename the FS by now | Jan 01 17:36 |
| -TechrightsBot-tr/#techrights-marc.info | '[ANNOUNCE] Reiser5 (Format Release 5.X.Y)' - MARC | Jan 01 17:36 | |
| scientes | XRevan86, why? | Jan 01 17:36 |
| MinceR | UEFI is overcomplicated and full of bugs and the real purpose of Restricted Boot is to enable microshit and crApple to lock competitors out of the market | Jan 01 17:36 |
| scientes | oh, i see | Jan 01 17:37 |
| MinceR | TianoCore (the most common UEFI implementation by far) is about the same size as Linux, without drivers | Jan 01 17:37 |
| MinceR | and it's only supposed to boot the damn machine! | Jan 01 17:37 |
| scientes | Hans Reiser had to get moved cause got beat up in prison | Jan 01 17:37 |
| matlock | Microsoft required vendors to provide a disable option as an interim solution. Microsoft devices still come with a disable secure boot option. | Jan 01 17:37 |
| MinceR | yeah, as an "interim solution" until they ban competitors once people like you stop paying attention | Jan 01 17:37 |
| matlock | Nothing like what Apple has done with their lock-down chip. | Jan 01 17:37 |
| MinceR | (that is, if you ever did pay attention, which i doubt) | Jan 01 17:38 |
| XRevan86 | MinceR: "the most common UEFI implementation by far" – the most common *free* UEFI implementation | Jan 01 17:38 |
| scientes | cool to see ReiserFS is still getting development | Jan 01 17:38 |
| MinceR | UEFI also "standardizes" (and locks computers into) microsloth formats like FAT and PE and idiotic ideas like having the system clock set to local time. | Jan 01 17:38 |
| MinceR | XRevan86: afaik pretty much all hw vendors build their crap on top of TianoCore | Jan 01 17:39 |
| XRevan86 | scientes: It's one of those cases when a rename would really be appropriate. | Jan 01 17:39 |
| scientes | remove baggage | Jan 01 17:39 |
| MinceR | would that stop the trolls? | Jan 01 17:39 |
| scientes | MinceR, yes it would | Jan 01 17:39 |
| XRevan86 | MinceR: true | Jan 01 17:40 |
| matlock | Did you know LVFS is based on .cab files? | Jan 01 17:40 |
| scientes | on new years here everyone shoots fireworks off from their balconies | Jan 01 17:40 |
| XRevan86 | MinceR: It's not like The GIMP, it's legitimately problematic. | Jan 01 17:40 |
| scientes | its pretty insane | Jan 01 17:40 |
| MinceR | i didn't, but it doesn't surprise me in the least | Jan 01 17:41 |
| scientes | what's wrong with The GIMP? | Jan 01 17:41 |
| scientes | GTK+ is the funny one | Jan 01 17:41 |
| scientes | not the least in that it is a triple acronym | Jan 01 17:42 |
| scientes | with a recursive acronym at the end | Jan 01 17:42 |
| XRevan86 | scientes: Evidently, https://i.pinimg.com/originals/6c/b5/24/6cb524eff80bffb9883455b596f65668.jpg | Jan 01 17:42 |
| MinceR | scientes: people whose calling is to be offended by everything get offended by it | Jan 01 17:42 |
| scientes | MinceR, that's why we also use git version control :P | Jan 01 17:42 |
| scientes | git - the stupid content tracker | Jan 01 17:43 |
| MinceR | yeah, the SJWs have yet to attack that one, strangely enough | Jan 01 17:43 |
| scientes | it embraces this troll | Jan 01 17:43 |
| scientes | that's why they don't attack it | Jan 01 17:43 |
| XRevan86 | Some projects renamed their git master branch %) | Jan 01 17:43 |
| scientes | you can't attack someone that refuses to get offended | Jan 01 17:43 |
| scientes | XRevan86, to slave? | Jan 01 17:43 |
| MinceR | they aren't the ones who'd need to get offended for this to work | Jan 01 17:43 |
| scientes | But getting offended is the whole point of free speech https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M5hpxgfCD_Y | Jan 01 17:44 |
| -TechrightsBot-tr/#techrights-RU Upset LOL? - YouTube | Jan 01 17:44 | |
| XRevan86 | scientes: varies | Jan 01 17:44 |
| MinceR | which is why crybullies are fighting against freedom of speech | Jan 01 17:44 |
| scientes | MinceR, it is a massive hypocracy | Jan 01 17:44 |
| MinceR | did that ever stop anyone? | Jan 01 17:45 |
| scientes | it stops them, because their coats are lined with lead | Jan 01 17:45 |
| scientes | according to Dante's Inferno | Jan 01 17:45 |
| matlock | Free exchange of ideas and sorting out the best ideas is the whole point of free speech, not upsetting marginalized groups. | Jan 01 17:46 |
| scientes | they can't move fast because of their own corruption of reason and logic | Jan 01 17:46 |
| XRevan86 | But indeed, "git" is a name that's just waiting to be attacked %). | Jan 01 17:46 |
| scientes | matlock, people often get pissed about certain ideas | Jan 01 17:46 |
| scientes | especially graduate students in European universieies | Jan 01 17:46 |
| matlock | And that will happen, but it's not the point of it. | Jan 01 17:46 |
| scientes | "economics" | Jan 01 17:46 |
| scientes | that don't know anything besides witch-gunting | Jan 01 17:47 |
| XRevan86 | matlock: "Microsoft had vendors insert a disable option in the mean time while they did." – and now the cycle is complete? | Jan 01 17:47 |
| scientes | https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xDQDyt0B-1E | Jan 01 17:47 |
| -TechrightsBot-tr/#techrights-Putin trolls Germans: You don't want gas or the nuclear energy, so you will heat on a firewood? - YouTube | Jan 01 17:48 | |
| MinceR | matlock: claiming to be offended by something is a popular way nowadays not only to shut down free speech but also to cancel people | Jan 01 17:48 |
| scientes | MinceR, upset people get to pull the water wagon | Jan 01 17:49 |
| matlock | Oh I know. | Jan 01 17:49 |
| matlock | XRevan86 Microsoft still allows secure boot to be disabled on their devices and I know many vendors still do as well. It was just part of a transition period from BIOS to UEFI, not a conspiracy. | Jan 01 17:50 |
| schestowitz | Microsoft should not dictate this | Jan 01 17:50 |
| MinceR | so the microsloth sales rep says | Jan 01 17:50 |
| schestowitz | they should be irrelevant | Jan 01 17:50 |
| schestowitz | in many ways they are | Jan 01 17:50 |
| schestowitz | but they buy people to let them in | Jan 01 17:50 |
| schestowitz | back in control | Jan 01 17:51 |
| schestowitz | WSL, exFAT etc. | Jan 01 17:51 |
| MinceR | UEFI, LF | Jan 01 17:51 |
| psydroid | <MinceR "and of course distros that don't"> I got Debian Bullseye with USB audio support running on my Orange Pi (with and without poetteringaudio), which just didn't work on Ubuntu 19.10. I also expect my current x86 hardware to be the last I bought in a long time or even ever, microsuck apologists can move over there -------> | Jan 01 17:51 |
| XRevan86 | matlock: All I'm saying is that they did lift that requirement. | Jan 01 17:51 |
| schestowitz | oh, how so very generous | Jan 01 17:51 |
| scientes | schestowitz, but again, upset people get to pull the water wagon | Jan 01 17:51 |
| scientes | just don't support non-free software | Jan 01 17:52 |
| scientes | problem fixed | Jan 01 17:52 |
| MinceR | soon that will mean not using computers at all | Jan 01 17:52 |
| scientes | tell people "We can't support that, it is impossible. Use free software." | Jan 01 17:52 |
| MinceR | even "free software" has been compromised already | Jan 01 17:52 |
| matlock | Microsoft makes the predominate operating system for PCs, they have a vested interest in maintaining PC cross-compatibility and security with a UEFI standard | Jan 01 17:52 |
| MinceR | with rms selling systemd as "free software" even though the whole point of systemd is to deny users freedom | Jan 01 17:52 |
| scientes | matlock, what are you drinking? | Jan 01 17:53 |
| XRevan86 | matlock: Now if one just goes out and buys a laptop, there's a high chance that one will not have an option to disable Secure Boot. | Jan 01 17:53 |
| MinceR | microsoft kool-aid | Jan 01 17:53 |
| matlock | We can not like that Microsoft has this position, but how we wish things would be in our ideal world isn't what we are working with. | Jan 01 17:53 |
| MinceR | but you do, don't you | Jan 01 17:53 |
| MinceR | mr proud microsoft surface owner | Jan 01 17:54 |
| XRevan86 | matlock: https://youtu.be/8lcUHQYhPTE | Jan 01 17:54 |
| -TechrightsBot-tr/#techrights-I, for one, welcome our new insect overlords - YouTube | Jan 01 17:54 | |
| matlock | XRavan86 As far as I know it is still an option on Surface and Thinkpad devices to disable secure boot. There is plenty of quality non-UEFI hardware too and open UEFI options. | Jan 01 17:54 |
| schestowitz | I am editing an article about this at the moment | Jan 01 17:54 |
| schestowitz | will be ready shortly | Jan 01 17:54 |
| MinceR | ThinkPads tend to support free unixes, none of this is microshit's achievement | Jan 01 17:55 |
| XRevan86 | matlock: Good, good, I'll just go tell absolutely every customer on Earth to keep that in mind when they pick laptops. | Jan 01 17:55 |
| matlock | MinceR So what you're saying is Microsoft doesn't control everything. That's good right? | Jan 01 17:55 |
| MinceR | they do not _yet_ control everything | Jan 01 17:55 |
| MinceR | and it would be nice if they never got to control everything | Jan 01 17:55 |
| MinceR | and it would be nice if they didn't get to control anything | Jan 01 17:56 |
| MinceR | but you act like it's acceptable to let them control everything and to extend their reach bit by bit | Jan 01 17:56 |
| matlock | MinceR There is a very active Linux on Surface community actually | Jan 01 17:56 |
| MinceR | i'm sure | Jan 01 17:56 |
| MinceR | after all, WSL is "Linux" | Jan 01 17:56 |
| MinceR | i wonder how old is the "i run Linux but" thing from microshit munchkins | Jan 01 17:57 |
| XRevan86 | matlock: So that's another factor to keep in mind, and it's not easy to pick a laptop as it is. | Jan 01 18:01 |
| psydroid | Linux activity on any x86 platform is not in any way a solution to the problem, unless you are an apologist who drank the microsoft kool-aid and can't get enough of it | Jan 01 18:01 |
| psydroid | I would say it's even detrimental, as it takes away from development on actually open hardware platforms | Jan 01 18:02 |
| MinceR | (audio:unimportant) https://vid.pr0gramm.com/2019/12/13/1b6f0e683bbf462e.mp4 | Jan 01 18:03 |
| matlock | psydroid What do you think are the most promising open hardware platforms right now? ARM-related? | Jan 01 18:10 |
| MinceR | https://img.pr0gramm.com/2019/12/14/26c94e3fa0c35fde.jpg | Jan 01 18:13 |
| psydroid | matlock, the POWER hardware from Raptor Computing Systems and the ARM workstation from SolidRun, which both have completely open system firmware | Jan 01 18:13 |
| matlock | psydroid I knew about Raptor, I will have to look into SolidRun. | Jan 01 18:14 |
| MinceR | anything OpenRISC? | Jan 01 18:14 |
| matlock | psydroid I am particularly interested in open ARM IoT devices. I maintain snaps of dev tools with IoT in mind and I am porting them to ARM. I guess I don't see how my choice of workstation to maintain those makes a difference to people who are going to using them to build and deploy applications on on ARM IoT. | Jan 01 18:18 |
| -viera/#techrights-Tux Machines: Whose Opinion Really Matters to The FSF? The Board’s, The Sponsors’, or The Members’? http://techrights.org/2020/01/01/the-fsf-wall-communication/ [https://pleroma.site/objects/5387ee63-9aa0-4337-9ba0-e61894182119] | Jan 01 18:20 | |
| XRevan86 | MinceR: I admire the serious face. | Jan 01 18:23 |
| MinceR | :) | Jan 01 18:23 |
| psydroid | matlock, I understand, I am interested in ARM/POWER/RISC-V laptops, workstations, servers and IoT devices. This ARM SBC I am using is fairly underpowered as modern desktops go, but it gives me an idea of what works on aarch64 and what doesn't. I have seen quite some improvements in Debian and Ubuntu over the past two and a half years. I have a Jetson Nano as well, but I need to order a powet supply for it. | Jan 01 18:23 |
| psydroid | power* | Jan 01 18:24 |
| matlock | I think I saw where the PowerPC laptop project was moving towards some type of dev board build. | Jan 01 18:28 |
| psydroid | I'll see it when it's actually available, but I expect more from Raptor in the POWER10 time frame | Jan 01 18:33 |
| MinceR | https://cdn.niu.moe/media_attachments/files/008/267/450/original/81b4b74929934933.jpeg | Jan 01 18:43 |
| matlock | You know what I think would be a good article, one in which this group would have good insights on? What happens if the SCOTUS finds for Oracle in Google v. Oracle finding that APIs are copyrightable. I am concerned about that would mean for POSIX and whether anything implementing POSIX-compatible syscalls would have to obtain a license from Micro Focus. | Jan 01 18:49 |
| MinceR | then we'll use technology in secret | Jan 01 18:50 |
| MinceR | and those who don't will starve to death | Jan 01 18:50 |
| MinceR | or maybe people will finally come to their fucking senses and abolish Imaginary Property and the state | Jan 01 18:50 |
| matlock | MinceR You would be fine with abolishing the share-alike requirements on the GPL in favor of public domain everything? | Jan 01 18:52 |
| superkuh | re: snaps, etc, etc, all that containerization stuff sucks anyway. | Jan 01 18:55 |
| MinceR | matlock: yes, considering that they already don't work | Jan 01 18:56 |
| MinceR | matlock: but only if it comes with all Imaginary Property being abolished | Jan 01 18:56 |
| MinceR | https://img.pr0gramm.com/2019/12/12/516b32f9af64c9ab.jpg | Jan 01 18:58 |
| matlock | superkuh What about it sucks? | Jan 01 19:18 |
| matlock | MinceR Why do you say that the GPL doesn't work? | Jan 01 19:18 |
| MinceR | for example someone could add a dbugs interface to some GPL software they want to use in their proprietary software | Jan 01 19:25 |
| MinceR | and then they can just call it from the proprietary code via dbugs | Jan 01 19:25 |
| MinceR | and this is entirely legal | Jan 01 19:25 |
| MinceR | GPL violations are so accepted even the Linux-Destroying Foundation accepted well known GPL violators as high level members | Jan 01 19:26 |
| MinceR | (while they kicked out all non-corporate members) | Jan 01 19:26 |
| matlock | MinceR So it's not a limitation in copyright as a whole, but now the GPL is written. Couldn't that be addressed in a GPL 4? | Jan 01 19:28 |
| matlock | MinceR Individuals can join LF for $49, students free. https://www.linuxfoundation.org/membership/individual/ | Jan 01 19:29 |
| MinceR | one could try, but it would cause even more collateral damage | Jan 01 19:29 |
| -TechrightsBot-tr/#techrights-www.linuxfoundation.org | Become an Individual Supporter – The Linux Foundation | Jan 01 19:29 | |
| MinceR | and remember, the state is supposed to enforce such licenses | Jan 01 19:29 |
| MinceR | and the state is controlled by the megacorporations this is supposed to help us against | Jan 01 19:29 |
| MinceR | they already ignore and twist patent law so their favorite corporations win | Jan 01 19:29 |
| MinceR | matlock: no, they can be "supporters", not members | Jan 01 19:30 |
| matlock | MinceR The state doesn't proactively enforce copyright in the US, it is up to the individual owners to enforce, they then invoke the enforcement power of the state through the judiciary. | Jan 01 19:30 |
| MinceR | matlock: https://mjg59.dreamwidth.org/39546.html | Jan 01 19:31 |
| -TechrightsBot-tr/#techrights-mjg59.dreamwidth.org | mjg59 | Linux Foundation quietly drops community representation | Jan 01 19:31 | |
| <--fujisan has quit (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity) | Jan 01 19:35 | |
| matlock | If I recall individual members could nominate people to the board but never had full voting rights. The barrier to joining LF is still much lower than the Open Group. | Jan 01 19:36 |
| MinceR | i hope The Closed Group is not the standard for such things | Jan 01 19:37 |
| MinceR | where whether an OS is Unix depends on a suitcase full of money | Jan 01 19:38 |
| MinceR | (audio:important) https://hugelol.com/lol/644676 | Jan 01 20:48 |
| -TechrightsBot-tr/#techrights-hugelol.com | Hardcore Parcour [OC] | Jan 01 20:48 | |
| XRevan86 | MinceR: Wait, is this de_nuke? | Jan 01 20:51 |
| XRevan86 | What have they done to it in CS:GO? | Jan 01 20:51 |
| MinceR | ¯\_(ツ)_/¯ | Jan 01 20:57 |
| MinceR | i never cared about CamperStrike | Jan 01 20:57 |
| MinceR | (audio:unimportant) https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZrNbYmXB9ZU | Jan 01 21:00 |
| -TechrightsBot-tr/#techrights-Hypnotized kitty - YouTube | Jan 01 21:00 | |
| MinceR | https://hugelolcdn.com/i/644688.jpg | Jan 01 22:05 |
| DaemonFC[m] | Ugh, my husband overdrafted our bank account with an iPhone game. | Jan 01 22:06 |
| MinceR | lol | Jan 01 22:08 |
| DaemonFC[m] | I think I moved money over fast enough to cover it. | Jan 01 22:25 |
| <--Firee has quit (Quit: lolmoi) | Jan 01 22:54 | |
| MinceR | https://hugelolcdn.com/i/644646.jpg | Jan 01 23:06 |
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