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IRC: #techrights @ FreeNode: Tuesday, October 01, 2019

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XRevan86scientes: Why wouldn't they run it?Oct 01 00:00
scientescause some 64-bit arms don't support 32-bit modeOct 01 00:00
scientes(they don't put those in phones for obvious reasons)Oct 01 00:00
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jgayr_schestowitz what is up with your "corporations are out to get rms" type statements on your techrights blog or that bit about FSF staffer defacing and it now being moved to non-FSF architecture (it has always been on non-FSF architecture as far as I know). Oct 01 00:07
jgayThe overall theme makes it seem like long time FSF and GNU supporters aren't the ones that actually pushed hardest for RMS's ouster ... or that it was some sort of manipulation from outside that ... somehow shifted the position of some of the most stubborn free software activists in the world? Oct 01 00:08
jgayAnyhow. I'm happy to share my own opinion. But, what I don't understand is the sort of 'conspiracy theory' hinting that you are doing which just seems so detached from realityOct 01 00:13
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psydroidscientes, did they have hardware capable of running 32-bit binaries before? It looks like 32-bit support is going away in general, also on AndroidOct 01 00:39
-viera/#techrights-Tux Machines: The Xeon vs. EPYC Performance With Intel's oneAPI Embree & OSPray Render Projects []Oct 01 01:08
-viera/#techrights-Tux Machines: #Android Leftovers []Oct 01 01:09
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-viera/#techrights-Tux Machines: Raspberry Pi OS Raspbian Improves Raspberry Pi 4 Support, Adds Many Improvements []Oct 01 01:11
-viera/#techrights-Tux Machines: Manjaro Linux makes two bold moves []Oct 01 01:13
-viera/#techrights-Tux Machines: Linux 5.4-rc1 []Oct 01 01:16
-viera/#techrights-Tux Machines: #Android Leftovers []Oct 01 01:17
scientesXRevan86, check out what I just saw on the street ;) 01 01:20
-TechrightsBot-tr/#techrights-Imgur: The magic of the InternetOct 01 01:20
*XRevan86 sees a literal nothing.Oct 01 01:25
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-viera/#techrights-Tux Machines: Taking elements from XCOM and FTL, Galaxy Squad arrives on GOG with Linux support []Oct 01 01:31
XRevan86scientes: Is the link right?Oct 01 01:31
scientesoh wtfOct 01 01:31
scientesit is literally nothingOct 01 01:31
scientesi guess i have to wait for it to upload before closing it :)Oct 01 01:32
scientes 01 01:32
-TechrightsBot-tr/#techrights-Imgur: The magic of the InternetOct 01 01:32
r_schestowitzscientes: they make it look like icecreamOct 01 01:34
scientesuggh, memory leak in gnome-shellOct 01 01:35
scienteshad to restartOct 01 01:35
XRevan86scientes: What is that? Chocolate shawarma with an orange top?Oct 01 01:35
scientesnot a good process to have a memory leak inOct 01 01:35
scientesyeah shawarmaOct 01 01:35
scientesi don't know what the top isOct 01 01:35
r_schestowitzso jgay was here...Oct 01 01:35
r_schestowitzI think he's one of the more eager to kick RMS out peopleOct 01 01:36
scientesgnome-shell can't be restarted with a wayland backendOct 01 01:36
r_schestowitzfrom what I can tell only Oliva vouched for himOct 01 01:36
scientesbut it was using like 500MB of memoryOct 01 01:36
r_schestowitzKat Walsh and Ben Mako Hill keep quietOct 01 01:36
MinceRis he an SJW?Oct 01 01:36
r_schestowitznoOct 01 01:36
XRevan86> it has always been on non-FSF architecture as far as I knowOct 01 01:37
r_schestowitzhe did not in his words even dispute what was saidOct 01 01:37
r_schestowitzseems very possible an authorised user whom RMS trusted changed his siteOct 01 01:38
r_schestowitzand to say corporations had no role in the media attack on RMS is just insaneOct 01 01:38
r_schestowitzFSF was happy to roll over, let the knees buckle, they're waited for such an opportunity since earlier this yearOct 01 01:38
XRevan86kaniini said that it was, so as far as "as far as I know" go, someone misinformed.Oct 01 01:38
r_schestowitzanyway...Oct 01 01:38
r_schestowitzMatt Lee told me the sameOct 01 01:39
XRevan86What supports that claim is Debian Wheezy again. Would FSF really let a server in their care get that out of date?Oct 01 01:40
r_schestowitzthey don't have a stellar record on security, eitherOct 01 01:42
r_schestowitzsee the DBD incidentOct 01 01:42
r_schestowitzbad adminOct 01 01:42
XRevan86That's not just security, that's plain negligence.Oct 01 01:42
XRevan86Not that security is great. When one allows the server to rot like this, one can at least disable server tokens to hide the exact HTTP server version.Oct 01 01:44
XRevan86The only reason I know it's Debian Wheezy is because Apache httpd on told me so.Oct 01 01:45
r_schestowitzjgay seems to think corporate influence is "conspiracy theoryOct 01 01:47
r_schestowitzSo my source in Boston is right about him being very corporate-friendly...Oct 01 01:47
XRevan86But of course all speculation exists because RMS hasn't explained what the heck happenedOct 01 01:48
MinceRwell, wheezy is the last stable release of debian :>Oct 01 01:49
XRevan86Who defaced the site? Was it defaced twice or not? Is the post related to the defacement?Oct 01 01:50
scienteslmao , AWS and amazon are totally differnt accou ntsOct 01 01:51
scientesi really odn't have another passwordOct 01 01:51
XRevan86For all I know, the post could've been draughted by RMS himself.Oct 01 01:52
scientesfuck this shitOct 01 01:52
scientesi already have my credit card tied to my amazon accountOct 01 01:53
XRevan86Maybe he wrote it and then changed his mind, but it still has found its way to the page.Oct 01 01:53
scientesamazon aws can go fuk themselves, i don't care if they have armOct 01 01:53
XRevan86That would explain the second time it appeared without other signs of the deface.Oct 01 01:54
XRevan86MinceR: If so, what does that change?Oct 01 01:57
MinceRnothingOct 01 01:57
-viera/#techrights-Tux Machines: Audiocasts/Shows: Linux in the Ham Shack, Linux Headlines and More []Oct 01 01:57
XRevan86In summary, things just don't add up either as an inside job, or as a hack, or as RMS doing it all himself.Oct 01 02:00
r_schestowitzhe would  not link to that videoOct 01 02:01
r_schestowitzso you can rule that outOct 01 02:01
r_schestowitzI'm pretty sure he let other people inOct 01 02:01
r_schestowitzlike the FSF does internsOct 01 02:01
r_schestowitzmaybe he's burned that access point by nowOct 01 02:01
r_schestowitzmaybe he was not sure at first, maybe he still doesn't knowOct 01 02:02
r_schestowitztechrights has two authorised users with rootOct 01 02:02
r_schestowitzone in ScandinaviaOct 01 02:02
XRevan86Definitely not root, too little was done for someone with root.Oct 01 02:03
XRevan86He could've stated what he knows even if its incomplete.Oct 01 02:04
oiaohmThe fun of setting selinux particular ways is that you can make root user useless.Oct 01 02:05
MinceRor you could just not let other people have rootOct 01 02:10
-viera/#techrights-Tux Machines: Debian Leftovers []Oct 01 02:22
-viera/#techrights-Tux Machines: today's howtos []Oct 01 02:23
-viera/#techrights-Tux Machines: Screenshots/Screencasts: Ubuntu MATE, Kubuntu and CentOS []Oct 01 02:25
-viera/#techrights-Tux Machines: 5 Best Security Tools to Have on Your Linux PC []Oct 01 02:42
-viera/#techrights-Tux Machines: Latte bug fix release v0.9.3 []Oct 01 02:44
-viera/#techrights-Tux Machines: OpenMandriva Can Now Clang Its Linux Kernel Build For This LLVM Focused Distribution []Oct 01 02:47
-viera/#techrights-Tux Machines: #openSUSE News: Election Committee Set to Open Vote on Project Name []Oct 01 02:53
scientesok, it ended up being easier to run my 32-bit arm binaries on my phoneOct 01 03:17
scientesahh damnOct 01 03:20
scientesi need my little mips router i hadOct 01 03:20 was definitely on FSF infrastructureOct 01 03:25
r_schestowitzthanka, kaniiniOct 01 03:28
r_schestowitz*thanksOct 01 03:28
r_schestowitzkaniini: jgay and mattl say noOct 01 03:28
r_schestowitzor that it had been >not< on their turf for some timeOct 01 03:29
r_schestowitz(I did not check myself the history of it)Oct 01 03:29
r_schestowitzyet neither directly refused your claim about an authorised person with access doing the vandalism, at least not yetOct 01 03:29
r_schestowitzRMS told me it was posted "in error"Oct 01 03:30
r_schestowitzthen it was posted againOct 01 03:30
r_schestowitz"in error"Oct 01 03:30
r_schestowitzand again removedOct 01 03:30
kaniiniseems like they don't know which authorised person is doing it thenOct 01 03:30
r_schestowitzthat's what I thoght tooOct 01 03:30
r_schestowitzthe changes are so minorOct 01 03:31
r_schestowitzif someone went through the trouble of cracking stallman it would be some black background page with "H4X0r4d.. and a nasty photo of some kindOct 01 03:32
r_schestowitzkaniini: maybe you can ask around, but I'm starting to worry we might >NEVER< find out what exactly happened there and who the culprit wasOct 01 03:35
-viera/#techrights-Tux Machines: Fedora IoT Edition Test Day and Red Hat News []Oct 01 03:38
-viera/#techrights-Tux Machines: Mozilla Leftovers []Oct 01 03:40
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r_schestowitzhiOct 01 03:42
r_schestowitzjgay: Oct 01 03:43
r_schestowitzyou responded to me hours ago; but two points:Oct 01 03:43
r_schestowitz1) you did not dispute what I had saidOct 01 03:43
r_schestowitz2) you reaffirmed my view you're sort of pro-corporate control Oct 01 03:43
r_schestowitzI'm not against corporations of course, per se, I even work for oneOct 01 03:43
jgayr_schestowitz I didn't dispute what you said, i simply wanted to understand where you were getting your opinions as they did not seem to be rooted in evidence but suspicion Oct 01 03:43
r_schestowitzwe just need to be very clear about what has been happening latelyOct 01 03:43
r_schestowitze.g. corporate media attacks on RMS and his character by distortionOct 01 03:44
r_schestowitzalso the github takeover and lies like "Microsoft loves Linux,", which corporate media repeats a lot (it's PR)Oct 01 03:44
<--amarsh04 has quit (Remote host closed the connection)Oct 01 03:44
r_schestowitzjgay: which views expressed by me >specifically< gave that impression? Maybe something I just quoted?Oct 01 03:45
kaniinijgay: it is circumstantial, but you guys are being quite mum about things.Oct 01 03:45
jgayr_schestowitz sure, let me quote Oct 01 03:45
r_schestowitzsome people tried to somehow blame Salesfroce, but offered nothing convincingOct 01 03:45
r_schestowitzjgay: you need to be upfront, this breeds suspicionOct 01 03:45
kaniinijgay: i think you guys whould be more transparent and just admit that you bounced RMS out of the FSF because he was doing a bad job and this perceived defense of epstein was the final strawOct 01 03:46
r_schestowitzyour statement re RMS resignation was far too short, I rely on hearsay from withinOct 01 03:46
r_schestowitzI think Oliva dissented in the Board, it seems like Oliva was that personOct 01 03:46
kaniinii mean, it's painfully obvious that's what happenedOct 01 03:46
r_schestowitzthe epstein  connection was bill gatesOct 01 03:46
kaniinithis isn't even about the concern trollsOct 01 03:47
r_schestowitzthe RMS media storm did help deflect from it, that's not a mere theoryOct 01 03:47
kaniinithey just provided an excuseOct 01 03:47
r_schestowitzand you buckledOct 01 03:47
r_schestowitzafter bkuhn and gnome foundation pressure you, along with othersOct 01 03:47
r_schestowitzgnome people tried this in 2009, that was their first run with "emacs virgins" etc.Oct 01 03:48
jgay"Something is going on and rumours suggest that large corporations play a role."Oct 01 03:48
r_schestowitzYes, IBM seemed gleefulOct 01 03:48
kaniinii don't think large corporations play a role, i think people were just tired of having to go play defense for RMS when FSF needs new blood anywayOct 01 03:48
r_schestowitzTheir press release was totally spuriousOct 01 03:48
kaniinihmmOct 01 03:48
kaniininot reallyOct 01 03:48
r_schestowitzcorporate mediaOct 01 03:48
kaniinithere was an internal discussion about it inside redhatOct 01 03:48
kaniinibefore they made that postOct 01 03:49
r_schestowitzI was once told about Torvalds that IBM-owned media did the shamingOct 01 03:49
jgaySo here is what I think the single biggest factor was. The following statement "When considered with other reprehensible comments he has published over the years, these incidents form a pattern of behavior that is incompatible with the goals of the free software movement. We call for Stallman to step down from positions of leadership in ourOct 01 03:49
jgaymovement.Oct 01 03:49
r_schestowitzthat IBM wanted him out, but In wasn't quite convincedOct 01 03:49
jgaypublished here: 01 03:49
-TechrightsBot-tr/ | Richard Stallman Does Not and Cannot Speak for the Free Software Movement - Software Freedom ConservancyOct 01 03:49
r_schestowitzthat's one Board memberOct 01 03:50
jgayKaren, Bradley, Brett Smith, Deb Nicholson. Oct 01 03:50
r_schestowitzI personally never got along too well with him tbhOct 01 03:50
r_schestowitzI was told bkuhn had authored itOct 01 03:50
jgayAre at the conservancy. Two former RMS assists.Three former employees and ED and one board member. Oct 01 03:50
kaniinibkuhn authored it, but the rest of the board endorsed it tbhOct 01 03:50
kaniinibut either way, i think this is just RMS fatigueOct 01 03:51
r_schestowitzso SFC now calls the shots at FSF as well? And by extension GNU?Oct 01 03:51
kaniiniof course notOct 01 03:51
jgayI don't think SFC calls the shots. I think that their statement is likely the one that struck the deepstOct 01 03:51
r_schestowitzSFC are enforcersOct 01 03:51
jgaydeepestOct 01 03:51
kaniinitake a step back and look at it like thisOct 01 03:52
r_schestowitzand bkuhn told us off when we tried to hold Samsung accountable for gpl violations by merely pointing that out publiclyOct 01 03:52
kaniiniFSF had been failing lacklusterly in it's mission for some time (almost all advancement of free software in the trenches is done outside of FSF and GNU anymore)Oct 01 03:52
r_schestowitz(as if we 'stole' their business)Oct 01 03:52
kaniiniRMS kept pissing people off with his social commentsOct 01 03:52
r_schestowitzremoving RMS would not fix FSF, quite the contraryOct 01 03:53
kaniinieventually people are going to be tired of defending itOct 01 03:53
r_schestowitzonly months ago we pointed out how dependent FSF was on RMS and his imageOct 01 03:53
kaniinimaybe so, maybe noOct 01 03:53
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kaniinii can list many people who i think could revigorize FSF and move it in a new directionOct 01 03:53
r_schestowitzkaniini: things I say piss some people off too, sometimes, the only alternative is to rarely express an opinion at allOct 01 03:54
r_schestowitzGreg K-H too would piss people off had he run a Political Notes blogOct 01 03:54
jgayNot just social comments. I mean look, I gave my all when i worked at the FSF. But it wasn't but a couple years into my working with RMS that I would: a) try to not introduce him to women at FSF events and functoins, and b) when i did introduce him I would make sure that the women understood he was probably going to ignore whatever they said andOct 01 03:54
jgaythen ask them out on a dateOct 01 03:54
kaniinithat tooOct 01 03:54
jgayAnd despite me warning them, they would still have me introduce them or RMS would walk over. And sure enough, he would often even ask me to go away in this super awkward way so he could ask the woman if she would like to go back to his room to listen to recordsOct 01 03:55
r_schestowitzhe can be socially awkward, but many geeks areOct 01 03:55
kaniinimy point is, the leader was increasingly ineffective (because many reasons) and a social liabilityOct 01 03:55
kaniinir_schestowitz: sure, but many geeks would also stop undermining key initiatives simply because they disagree with themOct 01 03:55
kaniiniyou have to have a mix of wins and lossOct 01 03:56
kaniinithe past few years of FSF has been more loss and lossOct 01 03:56
jgayr_schestowitz it isn't awkwardness. It is that it is inappropriate to do that as president of an org. he should have simply chosen to own his innapropriateness and to step down from president and to be supported as a gnu speaker Oct 01 03:56
r_schestowitzjgay: I want to help FSF and RMS, they're like the same more or less to most peopleOct 01 03:56
kaniinimorale at FSF has been low for a very long time lolOct 01 03:56
r_schestowitzI just think FSF scored an own goal to appease so-called 'journalists' who had liedOct 01 03:56
kaniinibut i think FSF people should be more honest and say it wasn't just because of this epstein incidentOct 01 03:57
r_schestowitztheir lies were then leveraged by those long looking to dethrone RMSOct 01 03:57
jgayAnd then at libre planet, that whole "the rules don't apply to me" thing was horribleOct 01 03:57
kaniinibasically for the past few years, everyone i know at FSF has basically low key been likeOct 01 03:57
kaniini"it would be easier to do my job if RMS wasn't in the picture anymore"Oct 01 03:57
r_schestowitzkaniini: more of a Minsky incident, not EpsteinOct 01 03:57
kaniiniyes, whateverOct 01 03:57
r_schestowitzthe Epstein connection is BIll Gates' via MITOct 01 03:57
kaniinimy point isOct 01 03:57
kaniinithe incident was the last strawOct 01 03:58
r_schestowitzRMS had called Epstein "serial rapist"Oct 01 03:58
jgayr_schestowitz this article covered the libre planet incident pretty well: 01 03:58
-TechrightsBot-tr/ | New Guard and Old Guard clash at Free Software... » Linux MagazineOct 01 03:58
r_schestowitzjgay: the libreplanet aaspct was covered by us back in April and twice later Oct 01 03:58
r_schestowitzbased on people in the knowOct 01 03:59
kaniiniwell i think RMS should have to follow the same rules everyone else follows at an eventOct 01 03:59
kaniini;)Oct 01 03:59
kaniinibut really, this all begins with LibrebootOct 01 03:59
r_schestowitzjgay: he also pushed that "emac virgins" phony scandalOct 01 03:59
r_schestowitzlast week in FossForce he went on another anti-RMS rantOct 01 04:00
kaniinithe shitshow that was the Libreboot incidentOct 01 04:00
kaniiniis what killed morale at FSF imoOct 01 04:00
jgayr_schestowitz the other aspect to all of this is that RMS has a level of arrogance that is just beyond the pale. He has teams of people, a personal assistant, and others all of whom will help him with being smart about how he communicates with the public. how and whether to weigh in on certain kinds of topics. Etc. It takes a pretty extremeOct 01 04:00
jgaysituation for him to reach out to that network before just going ahead and making a statement Oct 01 04:00
r_schestowitzkaniini: even Leah ow defends RMS in this latest rowOct 01 04:00
r_schestowitz*RowOct 01 04:00
r_schestowitz*Row and RoweOct 01 04:00
jgaythen when he fucks up, instead of asking for those professionals around him who are good at cleaning up to help, he stands his ground and defends semanticsOct 01 04:00
r_schestowitzjgay: he did start this movementOct 01 04:01
r_schestowitzsometimes he asks me questions/advice alsoOct 01 04:01
kaniinidefending minsky was honorable, but yesOct 01 04:01
r_schestowitzI don't think it's too irrationalOct 01 04:01
kaniinihe should have asked for help with composing his defenseOct 01 04:01
kaniinii would have started with the point that there's evidence that proves minsky did not accept the offerOct 01 04:02
r_schestowitzthe media moved on yesterdayOct 01 04:02
r_schestowitz 01 04:02
-TechrightsBot-tr/#techrights-Richard Stallman to Microsoft: Publicly retract 'open source is a cancer' claim | ZDNetOct 01 04:02
r_schestowitz 01 04:02
-TechrightsBot-tr/#techrights-Microsoft Loves Linux Needs More Work Argues Open Source Leader - WinBuzzerOct 01 04:02
kaniiniyes, but this isn't about the mediaOct 01 04:02
r_schestowitzHe also published that article explaining his visit to Microsoft. I spoke to him about needing to clarify motivations and how it came aboutOct 01 04:02
r_schestowitzit isOct 01 04:03
r_schestowitzkaniini: to some degreeOct 01 04:03
kaniiniit is about his allies being fatiguedOct 01 04:03
r_schestowitzit cannot just be ignored, it's used as agent of public opinionOct 01 04:03
kaniinisure, the media contributes to the fatigueOct 01 04:03
r_schestowitzyupOct 01 04:03
kaniinibut i know many people who have had to get in front of RMS and play refereeOct 01 04:03
kaniiniand i assure you, that contributes to the fatigue moreOct 01 04:04
r_schestowitzwhen it all began, sept. 16th, I told him it was distracting from GatesOct 01 04:04
r_schestowitzhe partly agreedOct 01 04:04
kaniiniwas the FSF board decision to fire RMS correct?  i don't knowOct 01 04:04
kaniinieither way, we will find outOct 01 04:04
r_schestowitzit seems like a flippant reactionOct 01 04:04
r_schestowitzthe fallout was bigOct 01 04:04
kaniinii don't think soOct 01 04:04
kaniinias i have pointed out, morale has been low for a long timeOct 01 04:05
r_schestowitzif he had resigned gracefully out of will (retirement), fineOct 01 04:05
r_schestowitzbut this was in-transparent and left him disgracedOct 01 04:05
r_schestowitzkaniini: but what now?Oct 01 04:05
r_schestowitzis morale better now?Oct 01 04:05
kaniiniit's too soon to tellOct 01 04:06
r_schestowitzthey need to make peace with RMS somehow, right now it looks like a bad riftOct 01 04:06
jgaySo look. I personaly have a lot to be thankful for from RMS. He was a great mentor to me. I learned so much from him that I can't even begin to even understand it all myself. The world has a lot to be grateful for. But, he tried to have his cake and eat it to. He wanted to be able to act independently and do as he wanted and also retain being theOct 01 04:06
jgaytraveling spokesperson for the FSF (sometimes 180+ speaking engagements a year). But then he didn't want to work with a staff or a community in fundamentally important ways. Oct 01 04:06
r_schestowitzand it's not helped by those edits to stallman.orgOct 01 04:06
kaniiniif FSF capitalizes on the opportunity and refreshes the FSF board with current generation of FOSS leaders and resolve this RMS situationOct 01 04:06
kaniinithen yesOct 01 04:06
kaniinii think FSF could rise from the ashesOct 01 04:07
kaniiniif not, then FSF will continue on it's path of irrelevancyOct 01 04:07
r_schestowitzjgay: at least make some statement about the RMS situationOct 01 04:07
r_schestowitzmake it look less toxicOct 01 04:07
kaniiniand as jgay points out, when you are the spokesman for an organization, you need to clear things with your peopleOct 01 04:07
r_schestowitzmake it look like RMS trusts the FSF in its current form -- I heard that he wants thatOct 01 04:08
r_schestowitzthen we can move on Oct 01 04:08
kaniinii agree there, there should have been a negotiated exitOct 01 04:08
kaniiniinstead of just firing him and being like "you can either resign or we will publicly fire you"Oct 01 04:08
jgayr_schestowitz the RMS situation with the FSF? The situation was that in early 2000s the staff felt that the best way to protect themselves from RMS was to join the UAW and unionize the FSF so that there could be some checks and balance against RMS and his small self-selected do more or less whatever he said board of directors Oct 01 04:09
r_schestowitzI get private messages suggesting there's a split of RMS 'loyalists' and the 'others'Oct 01 04:09
r_schestowitzand they want  a bridge, it needs mendingOct 01 04:09
kaniinijgay: :DOct 01 04:09
r_schestowitzFSF can be ok without RMS Oct 01 04:09
r_schestowitzbut make a better public record, to give us confidence there's mutual respect both waysOct 01 04:10
kaniiniyeah there's a split, but it's like 20% loyalists vs 80% everyone elseOct 01 04:10
jgayThe FSF needs to do some serious work on improving itself. Understanding the decisions it made in the past. And deciding if they should maybe make some different choices going forward. Oct 01 04:10
jgayI made some thoughtful suggestions to them shortly after RMS resignedOct 01 04:10
r_schestowitzkaniini: 80% of general techies or free s/w devs?Oct 01 04:10
kaniinii'm talking about inside FSFOct 01 04:10
kaniiniif it is down to free s/w devs as a whole, i would say 90% of us are just out there doing our own thing anymoreOct 01 04:11
r_schestowitzah, okOct 01 04:11
jgayhere is my twitter thread: 01 04:11
-TechrightsBot-tr/#techrights-@joshuagay: Here are some ideas to consider as the @fsf board and @johns_FSF plot a course for the future.Oct 01 04:11
r_schestowitzcheersOct 01 04:11
r_schestowitzthe whole conde of conduct thing would put some people offOct 01 04:12
kaniiniand again mattl has plenty of reason to be unhappy with RMS anywayOct 01 04:12
r_schestowitzunless renamed, like GNU/FSF didOct 01 04:12
kaniinir_schestowitz: if somebody is so fragile that the words "code of conduct" trigger them, they don't need to be involved anywayOct 01 04:12
jgayWhen the FSF decided to launch an associate membership program under Bradley Kuhn, the idea was that they could not launch a membership program, because that might imply that members could have a possible say in governance or some significant influence on the org. They didn't want this at the time. So they made sure to emphasize it was anOct 01 04:13
jgay"associate" membership onlyOct 01 04:13
jgay(I think wayback machine has some FAQ info about that clarification)Oct 01 04:13
kaniinii agree with jgay's twitter thread btwOct 01 04:14
r_schestowitzI RTd it minutes agoOct 01 04:14
kaniinithat is basically what i have suggested to FSF people that remain who have asked my opinion on "well, what now?"Oct 01 04:14
jgayr_schestowitz I mean, maybe some ... but, I can assure you, that a strong code of conduct and code of ethics can go hand in hand with a successful org Oct 01 04:14
r_schestowitzDid RMS run afoul of one?Oct 01 04:14
r_schestowitzthese things can severely restrict free speech sadlyOct 01 04:15
kaniininoOct 01 04:15
r_schestowitzAnd I make many public statements in politicsOct 01 04:15
kaniinia well-written code of conduct protects speechOct 01 04:15
r_schestowitzthose can be cherry-picked by concern trollsOct 01 04:15
kaniinicode of conduct ideally exists to stop things likeOct 01 04:15
jgayIEEE has 420,000+ members worldwide and a code of ethics going back almost 100 years, which you can read about in the IEEE History Center wiki: Oct 01 04:15
-TechrightsBot-tr/ | IEEE Ethics History Repository (IEHR) - Engineering and Technology History WikiOct 01 04:15
kaniini"hi $woman, i want to go out with you, if you don't agree i am going to harm myself"Oct 01 04:15
r_schestowitzkaniini: see what Sharp did to TsoOct 01 04:15
r_schestowitzfor merely expressing a view on rape stats ages agoOct 01 04:16
r_schestowitzThey've weaponised it to prop up their devs of commercial interestsOct 01 04:16
kaniinisureOct 01 04:16
kaniinibutOct 01 04:16
jgayIEEE also has a 24/7 support line you can call if you feel that another member has violated the code of ethics, conduct, or has retaliated against you for whistleblowingOct 01 04:16
r_schestowitzlike Greg K-HOct 01 04:16
kaniiniif CoC did not existOct 01 04:16
kaniinithey would yell anywayOct 01 04:16
jgayit is run by an independent agency and communicates with the ethics board Oct 01 04:16
r_schestowitzI don't trust IEEEOct 01 04:16
r_schestowitzI noticed you use their domain for EmailOct 01 04:17
kaniinii think IEEE has some problems tooOct 01 04:17
r_schestowitzThey're very pro swpats and proprietary software, close to Microsoft also, I wrote a lot about itOct 01 04:17
jgayThe best page with code of ethics, code of conduct, helpline, etc. all linked to is this one: 01 04:17
-TechrightsBot-tr/ | IEEE - Organizational EthicsOct 01 04:17
oiaohmReally things are kind of different since the cases that have happened with  catholic church and Harvey Weinstein cases.Oct 01 04:17
kaniinifor example, i will not join IEEE because of their software patent stance and the fact that they do not allow people to use common law aliases on their membershipOct 01 04:17
jgayr_schestowitz I am an employee of the IEEE standards association Oct 01 04:18
oiaohmParticular with people in management positions being held to account for not dealing with sexual issues correctly.Oct 01 04:18
kaniinii could afford to change my nameOct 01 04:18
oiaohmRMS has kind of been caught in that.Oct 01 04:18
kaniinibut several people i know do notOct 01 04:18
r_schestowitzwe need an alternative to IEEEOct 01 04:18
r_schestowitzarguably same for the patent offices and ISOOct 01 04:18
kaniinioiaohm: precisely.  that combines with the already existent fatigueOct 01 04:18
jgayThe IEEE hired me as their first hire to help them learn about and implement and support open source Oct 01 04:18
r_schestowitzbecause they're too indebted to FS-hostile stakeholdersOct 01 04:18
kaniinioiaohm: and people were like "fuck it, i can't defend him anymore"Oct 01 04:18
kaniinianywayOct 01 04:19
r_schestowitzjgay: they probably said "open source"Oct 01 04:19
r_schestowitzfor them your membership is an openwashing marketing angleOct 01 04:19
oiaohmkaniini: please note the laws that came out in the catholic church and Harvey Weinstein cases are 300+ years old that have been sitting on the books not enforced. Oct 01 04:19
r_schestowitz"look, we also support open source... everyone is at the table"Oct 01 04:19
oiaohmThen everyone gone o crap on those laws that they are in fact enforceable as well.Oct 01 04:20
r_schestowitzIEEE is all so-called 'FRAND' and other trapsOct 01 04:20
jgayProgress is slow and steady. The main challenge with making a big change at IEEE is that it *is* a membership org. They have a constitution that dictates how the board of directors is selected, they have five major boards below the board of directors and hundreds of ocmmittees. All committees set policy and procedures, etc. Oct 01 04:20
oiaohmThere has been a lot of management people fired in the last few years.   RMS is about the highest profile one.  Due to companies wake-up these laws are serous.Oct 01 04:20
r_schestowitzso you end up with stacked panels and tables, with Qualcomm, Ericsson and the likes and one person to let them say "oh! We also let "open source" speak..."Oct 01 04:20
jgayr_schestowitz oh yeah. I mean going from a FRAND licensed standards project to an Apache 2.0 licensed standards project is totally "open washing"Oct 01 04:21
oiaohmjgay: FRAND in fact breaches the Apache 2.0 patent promise.Oct 01 04:21
oiaohmjgay: you will see FRAND with MIT licensed stuff a lot.Oct 01 04:21
r_schestowitzjgay: which standard was this?Oct 01 04:21
r_schestowitztheir crown jewels are all patent trapsOct 01 04:21
r_schestowitzsome are so proprietary and secretive you cannot even see the specsOct 01 04:22
r_schestowitzunless you pay for the inside track and sign some NDAOct 01 04:23
jgayoiaohm no it doesn't. The rule at IEEE SA is that you must be FRAND if you have a patent license policy. If a standard project chooses (and is approved to be) open source, then the open source components (which could be simply stuff created outside the standard itself up to the entire stnadards document itself) of the standard working group mustOct 01 04:23
jgayoffer a free royalty license to all. Because free grant is also a FRAND grant. Oct 01 04:23
r_schestowitzThis is the type of thing FSF should publicly battle againstOct 01 04:23
oiaohmjgay:   Apache 2.0 the patents have to be free to use or you cannot use the Apache 2.0 source code.Oct 01 04:23
-TechrightsBot-tr/#techrights-Patent clauses in software licences - software patents wiki ( 01 04:23
r_schestowitzit's also a back doors ventorOct 01 04:23
r_schestowitz*vectorOct 01 04:23
oiaohmjgay: the apache 2.0 license clearly states the terms that the patents have to be under.   So not generic frand.Oct 01 04:24
*r_schestowitz thinks we need to work >around< the likes of IEEEOct 01 04:24
jgayoiaohm apache 2.0 is compatible with a FRAND policyOct 01 04:24
kaniiniso anywayOct 01 04:25
r_schestowitztry to get IEEE onboard Alice/Sec 101Oct 01 04:25
kaniinii wonder which disgruntled sysadmin keeps editing stallman.orgOct 01 04:25
kaniini;)Oct 01 04:25
r_schestowitzand then no need for misnomers like FRANDOct 01 04:25
oiaohmjgay:  No there is a strict difference.   FRAND allows changing a fee for patents if you choose to.   Apache 2.0 does not allow charging a fee for the patents.Oct 01 04:25
-TechrightsBot-tr/ | Reasonable and non-discriminatory licensing - WikipediaOct 01 04:25
kaniinijgay: i remember being hosted at FSF as recent as a few years ago.  when did move to positive internet?Oct 01 04:26
jgayr_schestowitz "which standard was this" ... well it is a slow process. The Standards Board just approved the first standards project. The IEEE 1076 (2019), the VHDL standard will be officially published in the coming months. It normatively references an open source repository containing some core library code and other things Oct 01 04:26
jgayone neat thing about it is that the normative reference is "undated" or "unversioned" so the latest version released by the open source project is the normative version. It will allow them to release as they go. Oct 01 04:27
r_schestowitzwhy does VHDL even have patents on it?Oct 01 04:27
r_schestowitz(let's start there)Oct 01 04:28
jgaySince the project has its roots back to the 1980s, it took a lot of work for us to get all the permissions needed to release the code under apache 2.0. I ended-up having to dig into things like BSD code base in from early the 1990s to show that the version they were using was an exact match to the upstream (at the time) and then show that becauseOct 01 04:29
jgayof this the BSD 4 clause could be changed to the 3 clause (because that is what the regents of berkeley said could be done at a later point in time), etc. Oct 01 04:29
jgayr_schestowitz it doesn't Oct 01 04:29
oiaohmjgay:  free royalty license to all can also have restrictive term on usage that apache 2.0 licence forbids as well.    FRAND gets used as method to mix in charged for stuff with true free stuff.Oct 01 04:29
-viera/#techrights-Tux Machines: Server Leftovers []Oct 01 04:29
jgaythere are very very few patent claims on IEEE standards. Any individual or entity contributing to an IEEE standard is required to file an LoA if they are aware of any patent claims. Every meeting of working groups is supposed to start with instructions about LoAs, etc etc. Despite that, there are very few LoAs filedOct 01 04:30
r_schestowitzso now there's common code companies can build uponOct 01 04:31
r_schestowitzwithout giving their changes backOct 01 04:31
r_schestowitzso the FS community needs to compete with their 'innovations' (extensions'Oct 01 04:31
r_schestowitzand can 'donate' time to those companies improving the referenceOct 01 04:31
r_schestowitzit's a big open core-yOct 01 04:31
r_schestowitzopenwashOct 01 04:31
r_schestowitz(apparently that's the 'thing' now, getting geeks to solve bugs on a voluntary basis for so-called 'Big tech')Oct 01 04:32
jgayoiaohm you are doing it backwards. The FRAND policy says that your license policy must be Fair, Reasonable, and Nondiscriminatory. A standards committee and the standards working group must agree to a FRAND license policy. We require that open source projects be apache 2.0 by default and bsd 3 clause as a secondary option (we argue that BSD clauseOct 01 04:33
jgayis an explicit patent grant in it). The Apache 2.0 license is FRAND because it is fair, reasonable, and non-discriminatroy. Therefore if standards development project requires Apache 2.0 they are not violating our FRAND policy. Oct 01 04:33
jgayr_schestowitz VHDL is not "big tech"Oct 01 04:33
r_schestowitzI knowOct 01 04:33
jgayr_schestowitz and there isn't much in the way of big tech in the other standards open source projects we are doing at the IEEE right nowOct 01 04:33
r_schestowitzit's old and if patents existed, they'd probaly be expired by nowOct 01 04:34
r_schestowitzBut I'm referring to things like the GitHub outsourcing operation known as "Linux Foundation'Oct 01 04:34
r_schestowitzBTW, FSF never expressed its views on LFOct 01 04:34
r_schestowitzI think RMS was very reluctant to, as well..Oct 01 04:34
r_schestowitzit's pretty clear in the past 12 months what LF had become, to the point it sent away Torvalds for a whileOct 01 04:35
r_schestowitzEven RMS was too polite to comment on LFOct 01 04:35
jgayI mean, LF is a business association. If I donate to the LF, i can't write it off as a tax deduction because as a nonprofit, their first cusotmer is the the public. Oct 01 04:35
jgay*isn'tOct 01 04:35
oiaohmjgay: the reasonable part include the means to charge.      I would like to see another term other than FRAND for those that have patent licensing without charge.    It makes implementing stuff more messy than it need to where frand with patent licensing charge is mixed up with items without a patent licensing charge.Oct 01 04:36
r_schestowitzit's like IEEEOct 01 04:36
jgayIt is what it is in that sense. They serve their business association members first and comply with 501(c)6 nonprofit status. They aren't a public charity like IEEE which is 501(c)3Oct 01 04:36
r_schestowitzIt's in effect a corporate front group, like a so-called PAC in US politicsOct 01 04:36
r_schestowitzFSF needs to confront these things IMHO, not because they're corporate but because what they do is morally problematicOct 01 04:37
r_schestowitzLF even "sells tweets" nowOct 01 04:37
jgayr_schestowitz the IEEE is a 501(c)3 and serves the public first and not its corporate members. And it's corporate members are capped. Our board hasn't raised coprorate member rates in a long timeOct 01 04:37
r_schestowitzIEEE panels are mostly corporationsOct 01 04:38
r_schestowitzthose with stake in the outcomeOct 01 04:38
r_schestowitzFS is rare and negligible in that respect, and with RHY becoming just IBM it'll get yet worseOct 01 04:38
r_schestowitz*RHTOct 01 04:38
jgayr_schestowitz I mean sure we have a lot of panels though. I think we average something like 5 or 6 major events per day, 365 days a yearOct 01 04:39
jgayso it is easy to show there are a lot of corporate panels at conferences Oct 01 04:39
r_schestowitzone way or another, IEEE gives them their wayOct 01 04:39
r_schestowitzthe assumption is, those companies "know what they're doing"Oct 01 04:39
r_schestowitz"we just stamp it"Oct 01 04:39
jgayr_schestowitz don't get me wrong. We dont' have a strong history of open source and we are long way from free software (i.e., free software is an ethical belief that rejects proprietary software, and we are far from having an organizational committment like that)Oct 01 04:40
r_schestowitzyou won't manage to 'take over' from the inside (IEEE)Oct 01 04:41
jgayr_schestowitz not really. I mean, we have a pretty strong history of trying to make sure that industries do right for humanity. Like, an extremely strong one. We aren't a free software org but we do a huge amount of good in this world and put a lot of checks in place to try to prevent any one corporation or a group of corporation from exerting tooOct 01 04:41
jgaymuch influence Oct 01 04:41
r_schestowitzit takes up time and energy for baby stepsOct 01 04:42
r_schestowitzthey already have their phony 'open source' groupsOct 01 04:42
r_schestowitzto pretend they participate in "open"Oct 01 04:42
r_schestowitzdays ago I discovered some new "open source" JS "foundation" appointing someone from Microsoft as headOct 01 04:43
r_schestowitzwe need to tackle this openwashing, the hijacking of narrativesOct 01 04:43
r_schestowitzthey play dirty, we can't play passivelyOct 01 04:43
jgayr_schestowitz there isn't an inside really. To make significant change at the IEEE you need to get buyin and support from the members and because most members positions on a given high level board are capped in different ways, you need to have pretty widespread support to get somethign accomplished and getting it done usually gets dragged outOct 01 04:43
jgayacross multiple terms of board presidents, etc.Oct 01 04:43
r_schestowitzthey always figure out waysOct 01 04:44
r_schestowitzlike giving freebies to or through IEEEOct 01 04:44
r_schestowitz 01 04:44
-TechrightsBot-tr/ | IEEE is Still Against Scientists, Protects Monopolies Instead | TechrightsOct 01 04:44
jgayr_schestowitz I don't think you can really accuse IEEE of open washing. I mean, I'm *sure* you can find instances of it if you look. But, not some serious open washing strategy that you see coming from a high levelOct 01 04:45
r_schestowitz 01 04:45
-TechrightsBot-tr/ | IEEE Hates Software Freedom, Now Makes it More Official | TechrightsOct 01 04:45
r_schestowitzThey even distribute Microsoft stuff for MicrosoftOct 01 04:45
r_schestowitz'free' thingsOct 01 04:45
r_schestowitzthere's always a way to bribe anyoneOct 01 04:45
r_schestowitzpersonal or institutional levelOct 01 04:45
r_schestowitzdirectly or indirectlyOct 01 04:45
r_schestowitzI write about it happening in Europe and EPO every day/weekOct 01 04:46
r_schestowitzIEEE may be more resistant to temptations, but with fake charities around they always find a way to spoil and corrupt everything, eventually...Oct 01 04:46
jgayr_schestowitz yes I saw your 2008 post about IEEE offering discounts on microsoft products to its student membersOct 01 04:47
r_schestowitzthoughts?Oct 01 04:47
r_schestowitzthis is the sort of stuff I've been writing about since I was 20, I saw lots of really nasty things, worse than this evenOct 01 04:48
jgayr_schestowitz not really. They offer discounts on AWS right now because Amazon said they could offer it to its members and they felt it was a good idea to pass along some free savings to its membersOct 01 04:48
r_schestowitzso Amazon too is doing itOct 01 04:49
r_schestowitzand IEEE sees no problem with itOct 01 04:49
kaniiniI agree that IEEE offering discounts is not an IEEE endorsement of a product or serviceOct 01 04:49
r_schestowitzyou might want to check the bios of all IEEE chiefsOct 01 04:49
r_schestowitzall past employers are past source of income to these peopleOct 01 04:49
jgayr_schestowitz correct. You will not find a rejection of proprietary software or services in the IEEE Code of EthicsOct 01 04:49
jgayr_schestowitz I am not sure we will ever see a rejection of proprietary osftware or patents in the IEEE Code of Ethics. I do think that you will see real and significant support of open source in varoius parts of the IEEE in the coming months and years. Oct 01 04:51
r_schestowitzthat would be a positive stepOct 01 04:51
r_schestowitzbut at the same time I think IEEE would make us more like them, not them like usOct 01 04:52
r_schestowitzso zoobab comes to mind. His 'mentor' used to talk about how we need to make alternativesOct 01 04:52
r_schestowitzin the ISO OOXML fallout one Swiss man created OpenISOOct 01 04:52
r_schestowitzit didn't go far, but he triedOct 01 04:52
r_schestowitzbecause repairing institutions from the outside is almost impossible unless you have deep pockets, fake 'charities' etc.Oct 01 04:53
jgayBut, free software is the rejection of proprietary software on ethical grounds. I think when society at large is close to making this committement then IEEE will make it -- they can be little ahead of the curve sometimes. But it was 2015 when the Standards Associatoin at IEEE started seriously exploring open source as an option.  Then it was 2017Oct 01 04:53
jgaywhen they hired their first open source community manager. And hopefully by December of 2019 we will have passed some policy that gives us an open source committee that is at a not-too-low in the org. And we are very close to that happening. Oct 01 04:53
-viera/#techrights-Tux Machines: Programming: C++, Python, Rust and More []Oct 01 04:55
jgayr_schestowitz yes, my hope is to help the IEEE and the Institution of standards development orgs in general (and governmental policy and regulatory agencies that rely on memorandums of understanding with standards bodies) to allow (ethical and real) open source to be a choiceOct 01 04:55
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r_schestowitzjgay: IEEE seems to have 'stolen' FSF timeOct 01 04:56
r_schestowitzI mean, as FSF chief surely there are pressing things to deal withOct 01 04:56
r_schestowitzand sitting on working groups is not, in my very humble opinion, best use of resources like timeOct 01 04:57
jgayr_schestowitz who is FSF chief? Oct 01 04:57
jgayr_schestowitz John Sullivan is the executive director at the FSFOct 01 04:57
r_schestowitzlike me not going to conferences as I think I can help more by publishing articlesOct 01 04:57
kaniinijgay has not been at FSF for some timeOct 01 04:57
r_schestowitzah, confusionOct 01 04:57
r_schestowitzmixupOct 01 04:57
jgayI am a full time employee at the IEEE Standards Association where I have been working tirelessly for the past two years to help them Oct 01 04:57
jgayI am their first employee with a dedicated open source titleOct 01 04:58
r_schestowitzbut anyway, both are key people in FSF 'circles'Oct 01 04:58
<--mmu_man has quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds)Oct 01 04:58
jgayr_schestowitz well when I left the FSF and they signed my settlement agreement, i was forced to sign a contract with a non-disparagement clause. I have clearly violated that a little here, but, I tend to not necessarily feel like I am welcome to be buddy buddy with the FSF as an org (even if I have good relations with staff and some directors)Oct 01 04:59
r_schestowitzBased on your tweet I assume you're still involved from a distanceOct 01 05:00
jgayMy settlement agreement was over some things relating to employee status and exempt (salary) vs non-exempt (hourly) employee policyOct 01 05:00
jgayand my aim in that whole thing was to leave the org better off than it was (I think I may have gotten one of the msallest settlement packages of any of the employees and I didn't really expect anything for myself -- so it wasn't about me cashing out at the end)Oct 01 05:01
jgayso I still care deeply about the FSF and try my best to support them in various ways and have definitely helped steer money toward them at times after I left (and will continue to support them in various ways outside of being a member or donor myself)Oct 01 05:02
jgayBut in general I am not a free software activist. The past year I didn't have a single conversation where people asked me to defend open source or free software, or framed things in a way that basically argued that open source is not a viable or sustainable approach to producing software and other functional works. Or to justify business modelsOct 01 05:04
jgay(beyond practical discussions about brainstorming revenue streams for an org, etc). Oct 01 05:04
r_schestowitz[05:04] <jgay> But in general I am not a free software activist. The past year I didn't have a single conversation where people asked me to defend open source or free software, or framed things in a way that basically argued that open source is not a viable or sustainable approach to producing software and other functional works. Or to justify business modelsOct 01 05:05
jgayI like not having to convince people of the merits or viability or correctness of open source or free software. I have instead a long line of people who simply want me to help them build collaborative open source projectsOct 01 05:06
r_schestowitzmaybe that's the key pointOct 01 05:06
r_schestowitzsome of us view FS as t he only means by which to take back control of people's livesOct 01 05:06
r_schestowitzas more aspects become dominated by technologyOct 01 05:06
r_schestowitzeven listening devices get installed everywhere, then dubbed "smart"Oct 01 05:06
jgayr_schestowitz the biggest challenge is getting free software activists to commit to working on the hard and boring problems that engage institutions with meOct 01 05:08
jgayr_schestowitz it is easy to expound and wail at the "the man". It is harder to get others to join in multi year strategies that are centered around building meaningful alliances with global institutions of power or to work at getting a seat at the table. Oct 01 05:10
-viera/#techrights-Tux Machines: [Krita] September Development Update []Oct 01 05:10
jgayFor the most part, the strategy free software activists take when engaging in such dialogues is to just reject everything that falls short before they have even gotten to the table and thus never get a seat at the table to begin with. Oct 01 05:10
r_schestowitz[05:10] <jgay> r_schestowitz it is easy to expound and wail at the "the man". It is harder to get others to join in multi year strategies that are centered around building meaningful alliances with global institutions of power or to work at getting a seat at the table. Oct 01 05:11
r_schestowitzwe have that already with some groups and institutionsOct 01 05:11
r_schestowitzbut we need to be picky as well, as some lose sight of what they are or have been malignant all alongOct 01 05:11
-viera/#techrights-Tux Machines: Devices: 'Team IoT ', Vecow, FriendlyELEC and More []Oct 01 05:14
jgayyeah we don't really have much in the way of all that. I think a few people who work with FSFE have done an OK job. Loic Dachary has done an OK job. Some in the global south have done an OK job. But, you don't really see efforts for those who are successful to some small measure making strategic alliances with each other to be even more effective Oct 01 05:14
r_schestowitzFSFE just gave upOct 01 05:14
r_schestowitzand many people agree with meOct 01 05:15
r_schestowitzthey don't seem to be keeping their eyes on the ball anymoreOct 01 05:15
jgayit's more like there is success despite the poor disposition and unwillingness to build bridges Oct 01 05:15
r_schestowitztell me where the success isOct 01 05:15
r_schestowitzthat companies now call everything "open"?Oct 01 05:15
r_schestowitz(even when it's not)Oct 01 05:15
jgaySo for me, I am trying to make sure that we have open source standards and hopefully some nice ways of supporting financially various open source projects ... most of which I hope will be the kind of "boring infrastructure" type projects that need to be sustained for long periods of timeOct 01 05:16
r_schestowitzlike with the Hippies movement, they just adapted and rebranded to appease their critics, giving the impression they listened and "have changed" (but did not)Oct 01 05:16
jgayr_schestowitz the hippies took power themselves Oct 01 05:16
r_schestowitzso we're toldOct 01 05:17
jgaywe are more like if the hippies went to their farms and diedOct 01 05:17
r_schestowitzthe suburbans lost, urbanism and inequality and even militarism at all time highOct 01 05:17
r_schestowitzousting RMS is crucifying those left in the fightOct 01 05:18
jgayr_schestowitz come on dude. All RMS has needed to do is say, "OK, I fucked up, please help me do right to those I have wronged in the past and show me the path forward to being a better person to women"Oct 01 05:19
r_schestowitzconformism never leads to any meaningful changeOct 01 05:19
jgayand then you know actually stick to that getting advice, help, and following itOct 01 05:19
r_schestowitzjgay: it's not about womenOct 01 05:19
r_schestowitzwomen are the pretext hereOct 01 05:19
r_schestowitzthis is politicsOct 01 05:19
r_schestowitzlike they always oust politicians based on "sex" somethingOct 01 05:20
jgayr_schestowitz pretty sure it is mostly about women and about making a bunch a confusing noise on positoins about pedophilia Oct 01 05:20
r_schestowitzbrought up a decade lateOct 01 05:20
r_schestowitzbecause the media decided it's time for him "to go"Oct 01 05:20
r_schestowitz(and help distract from ACTUAL pedophilia connected to gates)Oct 01 05:21
jgayr_schestowitz no it really isn't about the media or the mob. Oct 01 05:22
r_schestowitzit is, it isOct 01 05:22
r_schestowitzthe FSF didn't just do what it did irrespective of thisOct 01 05:22
r_schestowitznor did the gnome foundation or sfcOct 01 05:22
r_schestowitz 01 05:23
-TechrightsBot-tr/ | Stallman Under Fire for Views on Epstein | Tux MachinesOct 01 05:23
r_schestowitzthis is a timeline of how it happenedOct 01 05:23
r_schestowitzand who pulled the strong, play a role etc.Oct 01 05:23
r_schestowitzviewed 17k times so farOct 01 05:23
r_schestowitznotice how it started and how  (and who) reactedOct 01 05:24
r_schestowitzthe usual culpritsOct 01 05:24
jgayr_schestowitz no. It was him asking specific people things like "would you like to come to my room and listen to records" in the middle of an official even twith other staff and supporters; it was him turning things like removing jokes from that were just aweful into some long drawn out argument and battle stretching years (again with manyOct 01 05:26
jgayof the same poeple who are working for him full time or volunteering full time, etc); and it was him yelling that the code of conduct at a conference doesnt' apply to him and completely embarrassing the staff; it is him yelling at people over and over at the top of his lungs and screaming in the office; it was so so so many things over the yearsOct 01 05:26
jgaythat made it seem like it will be impossible for him to ever understand why choosing to argue semantics on the term sexual assault is NEVER the place to start the discussion on a very large and public mailing list full of many people hat have been tolerant of his behavior for 10, 20, or 30 years. Oct 01 05:26
r_schestowitzWhat he said in the mailing list wasn't goodOct 01 05:27
r_schestowitzbut it wasn't entirely unreasonable either, mostly politically-incorrectOct 01 05:28
r_schestowitzmaybe he even sensed it while postingOct 01 05:28
r_schestowitzcensoring his sites (jokes and such) is a bad ideaOct 01 05:28
r_schestowitzI ran my site since 2002Oct 01 05:28
r_schestowitzand I would not like it if people 'advised' me to remove "this and that"Oct 01 05:28
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r_schestowitzsome things are oldOct 01 05:29
jgayr_schestowitz removing offensive things from is what we are talking about not stallman.orgOct 01 05:29
jgayor what I referencedOct 01 05:29
r_schestowitzsome may be opinions I no longer hold and need not defendOct 01 05:29
r_schestowitzright, but it's up to himOct 01 05:29
r_schestowitzit's his siteOct 01 05:29
r_schestowitzand he writes dailyOct 01 05:29
jgayr_schestowitz Oct 01 05:29 used to be his siteOct 01 05:29
r_schestowitzand he still manages that projectOct 01 05:30
jgayr_schestowitz you can't really just write what you want to write on a personal site or blog eitherOct 01 05:30
r_schestowitzchanging that because of distortion like is unfairOct 01 05:30
-TechrightsBot-tr/ | Software Activist Resigns From MIT After Defending Epstein, PedophiliaOct 01 05:30
r_schestowitzhe did not defend Epstein, so then they resort to some comment he made on some article ages agoOct 01 05:30
jgaynot and also be president and lead spokesperson for an org ... not if it causes problems for the orgOct 01 05:30
r_schestowitzjgay: you canOct 01 05:31
r_schestowitzthere might be consequencesOct 01 05:31
jgayr_schestowitz right. The correct consequence is to ask him to resign. Oct 01 05:31
r_schestowitzto say "please kill X" would be illegalOct 01 05:31
r_schestowitzbut we're not talking about that sort of stuffOct 01 05:31
r_schestowitzif it causes issues, too badOct 01 05:32
jgayr_schestowitz but, the point isn't his poitics or most things he wrote on Those things didn't really rise to the inner circle and long time supporters wanting him goneOct 01 05:32
r_schestowitzbut self-censorship, even deletion post-publication is deleletionismOct 01 05:32
r_schestowitzpeople can fetch old texts from Wayback Machne anywayOct 01 05:32
r_schestowitzthe deletion itself (the act) can be more damningOct 01 05:33
r_schestowitz[05:31] <jgay> r_schestowitz right. The correct consequence is to ask him to resign. Oct 01 05:33
r_schestowitzthen we go down a rabbit holeOct 01 05:33
r_schestowitz"self-censor" or you're outOct 01 05:33
r_schestowitzand it can be something he wrote 20 years agiOct 01 05:33
jgayit doesn't matter. The problem is his behavior and attitude and unwillingness to work with an org and a community and his inability to understand why inappropriateness is harmful and offensive and can turn people away form participating with your org and commuinty Oct 01 05:33
r_schestowitznobody is perfectOct 01 05:34
r_schestowitzRMS is far from perfectOct 01 05:34
r_schestowitzmany people stick with him not for his odd remarks on sexualityOct 01 05:34
r_schestowitzbut for his technical legacy and views on technologyOct 01 05:34
r_schestowitzin fact, a lot of people, once they understand what he means (not what media says about these), will agree with himOct 01 05:35
r_schestowitzprivacy, autonomy, free speech etc.Oct 01 05:35
jgayr_schestowitz but not for his inappropriate sexual advances or being rude and confrontational and condescending to virtually anyone, even those he should be trusting and assuming good faith in? Oct 01 05:35
jgaythose are the reasons people didn't stick with himOct 01 05:36
jgayas the leader of the FSF and the free software movement. Oct 01 05:36
r_schestowitzwhy do people stick with bill gates| despire crimes, worse things?Oct 01 05:37
r_schestowitzCoz he controls the narrative, buys media etc.Oct 01 05:37
r_schestowitzRMS cannot afford reputation launderingOct 01 05:38
r_schestowitzGates is also extremely rudeOct 01 05:38
r_schestowitznot whataboutism hereOct 01 05:38
r_schestowitzjust saying Oct 01 05:38
r_schestowitznobody is perfectOct 01 05:38
r_schestowitzbut some manage the narrative betterOct 01 05:38
jgayr_schestowitz yes, i also will firmly reject bill gates as the leader of the free software foundation and free software movement Oct 01 05:38
r_schestowitzyou say RMS shoutsOct 01 05:39
r_schestowitzpeople close to Gates will possibly tell you similar stories of himOct 01 05:39
r_schestowitzbut those are repressed and not brought up muchOct 01 05:39
r_schestowitzRMS did anger management lessons, he saidOct 01 05:39
jgayok so Gates is a terrible pick for the leader of the free software movement Oct 01 05:39
r_schestowitzGates was trained by a firm to act "nice"Oct 01 05:39
r_schestowitz(which isn't trivial for certain types of people)Oct 01 05:40
r_schestowitzI can assure you RMS isn't much worse than some CEOs you knowOct 01 05:40
jgayyou have me there. I don't get this thing with Gates you got going. There are lots of bad people we could pick. Like the "I will go to the grave for them" support of virtually every major political leader everOct 01 05:40
r_schestowitznot just GatesOct 01 05:40
r_schestowitzEllison, Jobs...Oct 01 05:40
r_schestowitzmany of these "tech heroes"Oct 01 05:40
r_schestowitzthey all have big egosOct 01 05:41
jgayr_schestowitz yeah. There are lots of bad men Oct 01 05:41
jgayI agreeOct 01 05:41
r_schestowitzsome are perverts tooOct 01 05:41
r_schestowitzbut they get away with youOct 01 05:41
r_schestowitzyou have one of them as your pres :-)Oct 01 05:41
jgayand you won't find me calling any of them my heros but I understand that when doing moral comparisons, the behavior of rms is on par with these other aweful human beings that society should rejectOct 01 05:41
jgayyou won me over on that oneOct 01 05:41
r_schestowitzanywayOct 01 05:42
r_schestowitzthe point is, don't judge only on sex aspectsOct 01 05:42
jgayreject rms and other bad men too. Q E DOct 01 05:42
r_schestowitzRMS can be repulsive in certain regardsOct 01 05:42
r_schestowitzbut the alternatives might be even worse for FSF IMHOOct 01 05:42
jgayr_schestowitz it isn't just sex. It really is the recent blow ups. The Code of Conduct doesn't apply to him statement at libre planet was really badOct 01 05:42
r_schestowitzpeople I know from FFS...Oct 01 05:43
r_schestowitzFSFOct 01 05:43
r_schestowitz(ex)Oct 01 05:43
r_schestowitztell meOct 01 05:43
r_schestowitzit's like a censorship covenantOct 01 05:43
r_schestowitzeven women say thisOct 01 05:43
r_schestowitzRMS might rightly perceive this as an attempt to control his communicationsOct 01 05:43
r_schestowitz(I would not blame him btw, I too say a lot)Oct 01 05:43
jgayif he had responded to that CoC thing well, I think he may have had a chance being able to dig his way out of hte Epstein stuffOct 01 05:44
r_schestowitzI've probably 'offended' just about every 'group' in some past 'tweet'Oct 01 05:44
r_schestowitzthere's no Epstein stuff per seOct 01 05:44
r_schestowitzHe's not connected to EpsteinOct 01 05:44
r_schestowitzHe defended a deceased friendOct 01 05:44
r_schestowitznot Epstein, whom he called "serial rapist"Oct 01 05:44
jgayI know exactly what he said about Minsky and I can understand where his comments came from. He didn't think it would be fair to accuse Minsky of having committed sexual assault if Minsky was (old and as ugly as he was at the time) of such limited capacity to reason that he felt that the 19 year old eastern european girl on the almost private islandOct 01 05:48
jgayapproaching him to have sex was somehow doing it Oct 01 05:48
jgayconsensuallyOct 01 05:49
jgayof her own free willOct 01 05:49
jgayBut, the point is, when it was pointed out how wrong he was, what he should have done is worked with the FSF and other community members to issue a formal statement apologizing for the incensistive and poorly chosen statement. Even a bad non-apology probably would have been "good enough" Oct 01 05:54
jgaysorry a bad non-apology apology would have been "good enough" Oct 01 05:54
r_schestowitzexample from 24 hoursa go:Oct 01 05:56
r_schestowitz #CBC News does piece on #MIT and #Epstein but #billgates not mentioned even once (he's a close friend of Epstein, his 'MIT mule') whereas RMS mentioned (he called Epstein "serial rapist").Oct 01 05:56
r_schestowitz#corporatemedia 01 05:56
-TechrightsBot-tr/ | Stallman Under Fire for Views on Epstein | Tux MachinesOct 01 05:56
jgayr_schestowitz the CBC article is pointing to the fact that RMS took as his hypothetical thta Minsky slept with the young woman and with that assumption, and instead of arguing clearly and simply that Minsky's behavior was clearly wrong, RMS instead argues over semantics of words like rape and how it is poor diction -- the overall effect of which isOct 01 06:04
jgayrationalizing the behavior of Minsky as possibly being something other than a sexual predator. Oct 01 06:04
kaniiniI disagree.  I think it's ok to defend Minsky.Oct 01 06:04
kaniinibutOct 01 06:04
kaniinithe way I would have done it would have been to observe that an offer being made does not mean the offer was accepted (and indeed no evidence supports that either way)Oct 01 06:05
kaniinicondemn the offer but observe that the complaint only stated an offer was made, not executed onOct 01 06:05
kaniiniwhat RMS did instead threw Minsky under the bus by going with the narrative that he executed on the sex offerOct 01 06:06
r_schestowitz[06:05] <kaniini> the way I would have done it would have been to observe that an offer being made does not mean the offer was accepted (and indeed no evidence supports that either way)Oct 01 06:08
r_schestowitzI know very very little about the Minsky think (tbh, that's not the most important aspect)Oct 01 06:09
r_schestowitzbut I was told that RMS had better mentioned eyewitnesses who said Minsky turned down an offerOct 01 06:09
kaniiniyesOct 01 06:09
kaniinithere were eyewitnessesOct 01 06:10
kaniinibut, eyewitnesses don't mean anythingOct 01 06:10
kaniiniand Minsky did violate MIT policy by engaging with Epstein to ask for fundingOct 01 06:10
r_schestowitzand either way, posthumous accusations are always unethical at some levelOct 01 06:10
kaniinibut that would have remained an internal MIT issueOct 01 06:10
kaniiniif it were not for RMS's blowup about itOct 01 06:10
r_schestowitzRMS said much worse things in the pastOct 01 06:11
kaniiniyesOct 01 06:11
r_schestowitzbut this is the thing that 'blew it' for MIT, than FSFOct 01 06:11
r_schestowitz(under pressure)Oct 01 06:11
r_schestowitz*thenOct 01 06:11
*kaniini shrugsOct 01 06:12
*r_schestowitz always finds his remarks on pedophile politicians ("party") most disturbing of allOct 01 06:12
r_schestowitz(same for Amos Yee)Oct 01 06:12
kaniinii think the point is that FSF people were tired of itOct 01 06:12
kaniinidealing with RMS has always been a battle of attritionOct 01 06:13
*r_schestowitz thinks people need to prove more into the Gates thing (but won't)Oct 01 06:13
kaniinii think the gates thing is deflection :)Oct 01 06:14
r_schestowitz 01 06:14
kaniinisure, there is a thing, and sure it should be investigatedOct 01 06:14
-TechrightsBot-tr/ | Thousands of Child Rape Photos Traded Out of Bill Gates’ Mansion | TechrightsOct 01 06:14
r_schestowitz(analogy being, RMS said they should legalise heroin, whereas someone else was a heroin dealer, not just user)Oct 01 06:14
r_schestowitzGates scandal very much connected to MITOct 01 06:15
r_schestowitzIt'll be harder to find in news feeds and search engines nowOct 01 06:15
*r_schestowitz wonders when there will be a scandal over Saudi money for MIT :-)Oct 01 06:16
*r_schestowitz still breathing, not holding breathOct 01 06:16
jgaykaniini right in the hypothetical argument, rms assumed Minsky had slept with Virginia Giuffre. This makes sense, since Virginia Giuffre testified that she had slept with Minsky. So it was the right assumption to make. After that, it should be clear that anything else he says should only be too bring the attention on victims and on the need to keepOct 01 06:28
jgaysexual predators out of MIT Oct 01 06:28
kaniinidid she?  i thought she testified that she made an offerOct 01 06:29
jgayr_schestowitz it isn't really a posthumous accusation. Virginia Giuffre testified that she was instructed to go give Minsky a massage and she said she did, which meant she gave him a massage and then had sex with him (as she explains in her deposition)Oct 01 06:30
kaniiniwell that is disappointingOct 01 06:30
r_schestowitzjgay: was this testimony made after he had died? Asking seriously, don't know.Oct 01 06:31
kaniiniin that case, i agree with jgay that he should have just shut the hell up :)Oct 01 06:31
kaniinir_schestowitz: no, but it was unsealed after he diedOct 01 06:31
r_schestowitzOKOct 01 06:31
r_schestowitzI don't know the "technicality" (for lack of a better word) of the case, but... I believe, still, RMS made redundant remarksOct 01 06:32
r_schestowitzhow the media then twisted it was my main issue with it alllOct 01 06:32
kaniinii think given the testimony, he should have left it alone :)Oct 01 06:33
jgaykaniini the whole case was Virginia Giuffre vs the "madame" that instructed her to have sex with people. She could only remember a handful of people and places and it was blurred. But, she did a very good job of pinpointing Minsky in the US Virgin Islands and the approximate date. And that corresponds with when Minsky held a small symposium onOct 01 06:33
jgayEpstein's island in the US Virgin islands. Maybe it wasn't Minsky but someother person she was instructed to give a massage to and have sex with -- but, she remembers it being Minsky Oct 01 06:33
r_schestowitzit's not even about the whole "assault" or "not assault"Oct 01 06:33
r_schestowitzbut asserting that he "supports Epstein"Oct 01 06:33
r_schestowitzThis is the sort of headliner parroted everywhereOct 01 06:33
kaniiniyes i don't think RMS was intending to "support" EpsteinOct 01 06:33
r_schestowitzas if RMS is some sort of 'little girls bondage' manOct 01 06:34
kaniinibut defend MinskyOct 01 06:34
r_schestowitzRMS has already (ages beforehand) condemned EpsteinOct 01 06:34
jgayI mean look at how Roger Schank described what that symposium was like Oct 01 06:34
kaniiniwellOct 01 06:34
kaniiniif it is a symposium on epstein's private islandOct 01 06:34
jgayEpstein’s former neighbor, the psychologist and computer scientist Roger Schank, describes another such event that he attended: a meeting of artificial-intelligence experts, organized by Marvin Minsky and held on Epstein’s island in April 2002. “Epstein walks into the conference with two girls on his arm,” said Schank. The scientists wereOct 01 06:34
jgayholding their discussions in a small room, and as they talked, “[Epstein] was in the back, on a couch, hugging and kissing these girls.”Oct 01 06:34
kaniinii think that pretty muchOct 01 06:34
kaniinicovers itOct 01 06:34
kaniinitbhOct 01 06:34
jgayFrom the Salon article Oct 01 06:35
jgaysorry not salon, slateOct 01 06:35
kaniinicreepyOct 01 06:35
jgay 01 06:35
-TechrightsBot-tr/ | What it was like to be a scientist in Jeffrey Epstein’s circle.Oct 01 06:35
kaniinianywayOct 01 06:37
kaniinithe real quesiton isOct 01 06:37
kaniiniwhat nowOct 01 06:37
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r_schestowitzhi poetOct 01 06:37
poetr_schestowitz: Hello. =)Oct 01 06:38
r_schestowitzkaniini: he never responded to your prior question about server access etc.Oct 01 06:38
r_schestowitz(not to suggest evasiveness)Oct 01 06:38
kaniinipresumably that means he does not know when the server was movedOct 01 06:38
jgayi may have missed a question. what was it? Oct 01 06:38
r_schestowitzI just want to know what it might have been, RMS said "in error"Oct 01 06:38
r_schestowitzkaniini: can you find it in scroll-up?Oct 01 06:39
kaniiniRMS answer makes sense.  if he has delegated access to an unknown untrustworthy actor, then obviously he is not going to admit itOct 01 06:39
kaniinijgay: i asked if you knew when was moved from FSF infrastructure to positive internetOct 01 06:39
r_schestowitzkaniini: you said some articles of him came from internsOct 01 06:39 was never hosted on FSF infrastructure as far as I know. I believe it was always outside of that. That being said, it would not surprise me if an employee was granted access to it or if they simply found a way to trick a volunteer into updating the site through the usual method of updating the site, which I think is to send an emailOct 01 06:39
jgayrequest to one of the people that updates RMS's site for hinmOct 01 06:39
kaniinir_schestowitz: yes, that is true :)Oct 01 06:39
kaniinimany of the articles on and attributed to RMS are actually written by internsOct 01 06:40
r_schestowitzemail updates MIGHT make senseOct 01 06:40
oiaohmkaniini: the big problem is when you are in a management role your job is basically a judge.Oct 01 06:40
kaniinioiaohm: its trueOct 01 06:40
r_schestowitzexcept, a link was modified to a youtube urlOct 01 06:40
jgaybut generally RMS has always done a really good job of not having any FSF people do anything related and to keep a big firewall between themOct 01 06:40
r_schestowitz(which I doubt can be relayed via email)Oct 01 06:40
oiaohmkaniini: RMS titles with GNU and FSF meant he was in management of those groups.Oct 01 06:40
jgaylike for at least hte past decade Oct 01 06:40
kaniinioiaohm: also trueOct 01 06:40
jgayr_schestowitz no, it probably is all done over emailOct 01 06:41
r_schestowitzjgay: he was pushed out not for FSF stuffOct 01 06:41
r_schestowitzbut for MIT postOct 01 06:41
r_schestowitzand maybe some old stuff from stallman.orgOct 01 06:41
oiaohmWith the recent cases showing the old law applied the way RMS attempt to defend friend was not a workable option.Oct 01 06:41
r_schestowitzso the separation does not seem to be wholly honoured by tge FSF's BoardOct 01 06:41
poetI just finished reading "Getting Stallman Wrong," and I wanted to say what an absolutely fantastic article it is. Thank you. =)Oct 01 06:42
oiaohmkaniini: its the hard part about being in management is at times you cannot defend your friends because its counter to your job requirements.Oct 01 06:42
r_schestowitzpoet: excellentOct 01 06:42
jgayr_schestowitz yes his old comments about pedophilia on and his comments on csail were problematic. The board has not really shared much about what the discussion with RMS was like or if staff like John Sullivan asked to do a formal apology and that was rejected by RMS -- I don't know all those details. Oct 01 06:43
kaniinijgay: then that would indicate that it's one of his 'volunteers' that likely mucked with his siteOct 01 06:43
r_schestowitzjgay: interestign...Oct 01 06:43
r_schestowitzso now we get some inside storyOct 01 06:43
r_schestowitzwhat was the apology >for< (as requested)?Oct 01 06:43
kaniinihe said he didn't know if one was requestedOct 01 06:43
jgayr_schestowitz I don't know if John did ask him if the FSF can/should do an apology. If I were in John's shoes, i would have immediately raised it as an idea, and then i would have brought it up again after the conservancy made its statementOct 01 06:44
oiaohmkaniini: I have been in the location where management could not defend me until I produced all the facts they need to prove the claim was absolutely false.   It was not because the manager was a jerk it was just the legal restrictions of the position.Oct 01 06:45
r_schestowitzjgay: was there a vote as I heard?Oct 01 06:47
r_schestowitzon RMS?Oct 01 06:47
oiaohmjgay: the big there those old items were problemmatic yet they left RMS in the management role.   Those really should been enough back then to move him to PR or something lower where he was not an absolute authority.Oct 01 06:47
r_schestowitzand a threat to push him out unless he resigns?Oct 01 06:47
jgayoiaohm I am  confident that FSF staff (and it's executive director) would not in any way offer to defend RMS's comments that were made on the csail mailing list. I could see them saying something like apologize for those hurt and reaffirm RMS's position that is strongly against Epstein and any sexual predator, etc. Oct 01 06:47
r_schestowitzhe did make a statementOct 01 06:48
jgayoiaohm well he was president of the FSF. He wasn't managementOct 01 06:48
r_schestowitzapologising in publicOct 01 06:48
r_schestowitzaOct 01 06:48
r_schestowitza day or so later he said he resigned from the MIT thing due to a lot of pressureOct 01 06:48
oiaohmjgay: president in company is still management as the final person to take a unresolved problem to.Oct 01 06:48
kaniinihe apologized to CSAIL for offending people, not for his commentsOct 01 06:48
jgayin the US, the board and president are somewhat firewalled from the CEO/Executive Director that is hired to run the organization. Oct 01 06:48
r_schestowitzhe said it was misunderstoodOct 01 06:48
r_schestowitzand said the media had distored itOct 01 06:49
r_schestowitzwhich was also trueOct 01 06:49
r_schestowitzdid they ask for a retraction or apology/Oct 01 06:49
oiaohmr_schestowitz: true to a point the media had distorted it.   But some of the point RMS did used were not current law and had not been current law for over 2 decades.Oct 01 06:50
jgayI mean, the point is, there are lots of ways to handle situations where you fuck up. RMS fucked up and any number of possibilities were readily available to him any minute or hour of the day at no cost and that could be trusted. He knows that there are lots of people close to the FSF that are better at communications than he is and he could haveOct 01 06:50
jgayasked for help Oct 01 06:50
jgayIf he did ask for help and this is what he got, then that is really really sad. But, I suspect he didn't ask for help. Oct 01 06:50
r_schestowitzthe media would not have changed its tuneOct 01 06:51
r_schestowitzeven better communicators cannot properly deal with malicious liarsOct 01 06:51
kaniinisure they canOct 01 06:51
r_schestowitzin this case, some of whom employed by a friend of Bill Gates himself, as was the case hereOct 01 06:51
kaniiniyou get in front of the lieOct 01 06:51
jgayHe knows he sucks at doing certain things when it comes to communicating. I know he knows this because he has explained it to me in very clear terms about what his strengths and weaknesses are and how he trusted me to do the right hting in strategic approaches so long as I kept within certain requirements he felt were essential Oct 01 06:51
r_schestowitzI suppose he thought the media would stopOct 01 06:52
oiaohmjgay: when it comes to legal messes like sexual assault and other claims CEO/Executive director firewall from precedent and board does not work due to the old law.   The old law you with the right to take those complains to the board/president.Oct 01 06:52
r_schestowitzbut it carried on and on for a week, same line of liesOct 01 06:52
oiaohmjgay: some of the splits in management do work for some things and not for others even in the USA.Oct 01 06:52
jgayr_schestowitz it isn't about popular opinion or the media. It is about those close to the FSF, those allies, those supporters who have and want to work with them, being able to trust that he is also willing to work with them on doing what is right for the movement. But after the conservancy statement, it would have taken a lot more than just askingOct 01 06:55
jgayfor help. He should have been on a plane pleading with Karen and/or Bradley. Apologizing. Conceding to support when it comes to communications, etc. This was the end: 01 06:55
-TechrightsBot-tr/ | Richard Stallman Does Not and Cannot Speak for the Free Software Movement - Software Freedom ConservancyOct 01 06:55
oiaohmBeing a CEO or on a board you are really required keep up on particular things.   There are lot who don't and a lot every year get dismissed from management/boards for equal screw up.Oct 01 06:55
-viera/#techrights-Tux Machines: Events: Hackathon Event, Helm Summit, LinuxConf [ZA] and Open Graphics in Montreal []Oct 01 06:55
oiaohmIf RMS was not famous this would be lucky to get a note in the 10 page of the local newspaper.Oct 01 06:56
jgayI mean when you start losing massive percentage of your membership in a span of 24 hours, there is a right way to respondOct 01 06:56
jgaywhen you are the president of an orgOct 01 06:56
jgaylike a million right ways to respondOct 01 06:56
*r_schestowitz clearly recalls how the media did the same thing to Wikileaks and Assange for many years, not one weekOct 01 06:56
r_schestowitzjgay: media did its jobOct 01 06:57
r_schestowitzto defund an orgOct 01 06:57
r_schestowitzand a movementOct 01 06:57
r_schestowitzas it wishedOct 01 06:57
jgayit is clear that even if the media is distorting what you are saying, you need to go above and beyond most anything you have ever done to assure people you will do better and you need to take actions that show that Oct 01 06:57
r_schestowitzthat's corporate media powerOct 01 06:57
jgayit iddn't defund itOct 01 06:57
r_schestowitzand that's why it exists, why corporations sink money into itOct 01 06:57
jgayit wasn't anywhere close to being in danger in that regard I don't thinkOct 01 06:58
kaniinijgay++Oct 01 06:58
r_schestowitz$100,000,000 per year are spent by Gates bribing publishersOct 01 06:58
r_schestowitzNow they focus on "GAFA"Oct 01 06:58
jgaythe point is that you need metrics to help inform you. There were lots of stuff I did in which we would lose a bunch of members and/or subscribers to mailing listsOct 01 06:58
r_schestowitzwell, RMS lost control of the narrative and his words did not helpOct 01 06:59
oiaohmr_schestowitz: with wikileaks and Assange it was a uphill battle.Oct 01 06:59
jgayWe would look at it and decide if it was something that should change our tactics or approach. Sometimes we said: no, this is OK, we can't win over everyone, a lot of people don't like our negative campaigning tactics but we should see them through a bit more and look at other facteors as wellOct 01 06:59
r_schestowitzbut that should not be a 'sackable' 'offense'Oct 01 06:59
kaniinii think BadVista was a bad move tbhOct 01 06:59
r_schestowitzI think notOct 01 07:00
jgayother times we said, "OK, well, they hvea a point, we can be negative campaigners in a variety fo ways, maybe we should choose some that are more effective at building up more support and do just as well at creating public awareness on important computer user freedom issues"Oct 01 07:00
r_schestowitzcriticism is importantOct 01 07:00
kaniinicriticism is important, but they beat that horse until it was not just dead, but a skeletonOct 01 07:00
oiaohmr_schestowitz: No its a sackable offence with out question.   The the prior cases one in Australia and  USA proved where if you are a board don't sack the person count can do it for you and sack even more.Oct 01 07:00
r_schestowitzmaybe that's why techrights fills a gap FSF won't fill anymoreOct 01 07:00
jgaykaniini we concluded that it was probably the right campaign to close and that we could do better in future onesOct 01 07:00
kaniinimeanwhile cloud computing was risingOct 01 07:00
kaniiniand FSF didn't respond until it was too lateOct 01 07:00
oiaohmcount/courtOct 01 07:00
r_schestowitzkaniini: trueOct 01 07:01
kaniiniand then RMS came out even later and said if you use AGPL, you're on your own with enforcing itOct 01 07:01
jgaykaniini I mean, you have a small staff, you have some ideas of what to do, you don't have a lot of wisdom. There is no "netroots" conference yet. Nobody wanted to work for the FSf and certainly not for the pay. So we did what we could doOct 01 07:01
oiaohmr_schestowitz: of course that does not mean he cannot be highered in a lower power role.Oct 01 07:01
oiaohmr_schestowitz: basically complex on paper demotion.Oct 01 07:01
r_schestowitzRMS did speak out against "cloud" in 2008Oct 01 07:01
r_schestowitz 01 07:02
-TechrightsBot-tr/ | Cloud computing is a trap, warns GNU founder | Technology | The GuardianOct 01 07:02
oiaohmThe title of GNU founder RMS can keep on using.Oct 01 07:02
r_schestowitzeven my employer fell for this "Cloud" idiocyOct 01 07:02
jgayOne nice result was when brett smith left, I was confident that we had reached a place where the FSF and online-based activism in general were appealing enough that I knew we could get a strong pool of applicants to do campaigns management. So I took on the much harder to hire for job of licensing and compliance manager and made room for newOct 01 07:02
jgaycampaigns managers. Oct 01 07:02
oiaohmr_schestowitz: management/board/president roles have requires that the person be of good and suitable character  or at least smart enough to keep there mouth shut on particular topics that could dig them into a hole.Oct 01 07:04
jgayIt was the right move. Although, I think that overall, we ewren't doing a great job of creating an infrastructure and process for deciding how to go about creating new campaigns or re-invigorating existing ones. That was a major lesson for me personally. After I left, I think that the FSF did away with the role of campaigns manager as I don't thinkOct 01 07:05
jgayanyone has that title anymore -- or at least, I don't think anyone does right nowOct 01 07:05
oiaohmI have been really supprised how long RMS in a incorrect role managed to stay there.Oct 01 07:05
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jgayOne thing I hope the FSF does is find ways to bring in more of its community to help on making strategic decisions and in experimenting. Like, I imagine you could spin out a lot of small activist campaigns and basically keep them a good distance away from the FSF, but have them be informed and aligned with the FSF's mission. Those that start toOct 01 07:06
jgaybuild momentum, are timely, and seem to be working well, could then be embraced more directly by the FSF. Oct 01 07:06
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jgayWhile I think it would be fine to shut down, I also think that an alternative approach could be to go ahead and take an entirely different approach. Really focus on the fact that underlying the directory is a database which is designed to be integrated with a SPARQL server Oct 01 07:08
jgayGo ahead and push on creating an awesome JSON-linked schema on describing free software packages and then work with communities to build maps between distros and packaging systems (like node, etc). on the package description files. Go ahead and embrace snaps and collaborate. Work with everyone you can . But, make committments. Like, makeOct 01 07:12
jgaycommittments to upstream. Reject nonfree software. Reject nonfree repos.. Avoid the "windows trap" etc. And frame your committment to free software as being the public commons that benefits humanity and say that if others want to play by a different rules, they are also free to make use of their own data stores but you encourage them to not mix andOct 01 07:12
jgaymatch free and nonfree. EtcOct 01 07:12
-viera/#techrights-Tux Machines: OSS: Sun, TensorFlow, WordPress, RenPyWeb, MediaGoblin et al and GPL []Oct 01 07:13
-viera/#techrights-Tux Machines: today's howtos []Oct 01 07:15
jgayOh man. Now that I'm started I have like a long list of good ideas. But, my real point is, I would love to feel like there was a commuinty of people who would work with me on helping to flush out good ideas and more community to help figure out what are the best ideas amongst those ideas to pursue. And then hopefully an FSF that would have a way toOct 01 07:16
jgayallocate at least some of its resources to backing and supporting volunteers doing such work that aligned politically and with messaging. Like, even if it was limited to only putting a fraction of its resources toward democratically aligned ideas that fall within some criteria set by the board, etc. I think that even opening the door a little bitOct 01 07:16
jgayin that way would lead to some pretty amazing things  Oct 01 07:16
jgayWell. I had my shot and I took it. I dont' think I'm the right person to help the FSF. Too much history. We need fresh eyes and some new people. Oct 01 07:22
jgayr_schestowitz thank you for your time and engaging in this discussion this evening and for helping to host a welcoming forum and community hub. I appreciate what you do. Oct 01 07:23
jgaykaniini thank you as wellOct 01 07:23
kaniininightOct 01 07:23
jgayg'night Oct 01 07:24
r_schestowitz0/Oct 01 07:24
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r_schestowitzso we got some clues about internal FSF affairsOct 01 08:52
r_schestowitzRMS:Oct 01 08:54
r_schestowitz> /I have been hit, butOct 01 08:54
r_schestowitz> not knocked out, and my campaign for free software is not over.  IOct 01 08:54
r_schestowitz> appreciate your moral support, but there I also need your help.Oct 01 08:54
r_schestowitz> Oct 01 08:54
r_schestowitz> Everyone on the FSF board is dedicated to free software.  The question is,Oct 01 08:54
r_schestowitz> will they stand as firm as is needed against outside pressure?Oct 01 08:54
r_schestowitz> Oct 01 08:54
r_schestowitz> You can help them be firm.  You can (1) join as an associate memberOct 01 08:54
r_schestowitz> (if you aren't already) and (2) tell the organization that you want itOct 01 08:54
r_schestowitz> to stick to the principles and priorities that I have set.  You canOct 01 08:54
r_schestowitz> write to <>.  I suggest keeping it short!Oct 01 08:54
r_schestowitz> Oct 01 08:54
r_schestowitz> If you can't afford to join, you can still state your views to theOct 01 08:54
r_schestowitz> FSF.Oct 01 08:54
r_schestowitz> Oct 01 08:54
r_schestowitz> Aside from that, you could speak up in mailing lists and discussionsOct 01 08:54
r_schestowitz> (don't bother with Twitter), to inform people that the media articlesOct 01 08:54
r_schestowitz> misrepresented my views; then help people understand by showing andOct 01 08:54
r_schestowitz> explaining my actual words.Oct 01 08:54
r_schestowitz> Oct 01 08:54
r_schestowitz> Either one, or both, could make a difference.  So thank you forOct 01 08:54
r_schestowitz> whatever you do./Oct 01 08:54
r_schestowitz(this is new)Oct 01 08:54
r_schestowitzkaniini: Oct 01 09:18
r_schestowitzRMS:Oct 01 09:19
r_schestowitz> has not moved.  It has been hosted by the same companyOct 01 09:19
r_schestowitz> for many years.  It was never hosted by the FSF.  On the contrary, IOct 01 09:19
r_schestowitz> started it to keep it separate from the FSF.Oct 01 09:19
kaniiniokOct 01 09:19
kaniiniso that means it is one of his volunteers who is fucking around :)Oct 01 09:19
r_schestowitzseems likelyOct 01 09:19
r_schestowitzI will amend my articleOct 01 09:20
r_schestowitzFOR IMMEDIATE PUBLICATION: What Stallman WantsOct 01 09:21
r_schestowitzGuest PostOct 01 09:21
r_schestowitzShould be ready is about 20 minsOct 01 09:22
r_schestowitzRe: SO MUCH going on today!> and most of it is accessible from the podiverse.Oct 01 09:23
r_schestowitz> Oct 01 09:23
r_schestowitz> not all of it. this is a major, major day for the renewed fight against non-free software. i dont think ive ever seen anything like it.Oct 01 09:23
r_schestowitz> Oct 01 09:23
r_schestowitz> if youre looking for hope, look hard! its everywhere. reaching a tipping point, my friend. cheers.Oct 01 09:23
r_schestowitzwe will come back stronger, eventuallyOct 01 09:23
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r_schestowitzI'm writing a statement on this issueOct 01 10:45
r_schestowitzpersonal statementOct 01 10:45
-viera/#techrights-Tux Machines: My Personal Position on Richard Stallman and the FSF: Details Will Eventually Emerge, Information Will Set Us Free (as in Freedom) []Oct 01 11:21
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-viera/#techrights-Tux Machines: Today in Techrights []Oct 01 12:37
-viera/#techrights-Tux Machines: GNOME 3.34 is now managed using systemd []Oct 01 13:43
-viera/#techrights-Tux Machines: Games: Stardock CEO, MegaSphere, Steam, SCS Software and More []Oct 01 13:57
MinceRhere's something the FSF could do to become relevant again: stop pretending that systemd supports the freedoms of its usersOct 01 14:00
r_schestowitzthat would upset IBMOct 01 14:01
r_schestowitzand make another enemyOct 01 14:01
r_schestowitz[13:43] [Notice] -viera to #techrights- Tux Machines: GNOME 3.34 is now managed using systemd []Oct 01 14:01
-TechrightsBot-tr/ | GNOME 3.34 is now managed using systemd | Tux MachinesOct 01 14:01
-TechrightsBot-tr/ | PleromaOct 01 14:01
r_schestowitz 01 14:03
-TechrightsBot-tr/ | GNOME 3.34 is now managed using systemd – Benjamin BergOct 01 14:03
r_schestowitzMinceR: we speak more about these issues over timeOct 01 14:04
r_schestowitzbut gentlyOct 01 14:04
MinceRIBM is already an enemy to the free software communityOct 01 14:05
MinceRregardless of whether that community recognizes thisOct 01 14:05
MinceRand regardless of whether the FSF still wants to stand with free software or notOct 01 14:05
r_schestowitzit always wasOct 01 14:05
MinceRwith RH, they're even more soOct 01 14:05
r_schestowitz"Linux" was its darlingOct 01 14:05
r_schestowitzit doesn;'t like to talk about GNU and GPLOct 01 14:05
MinceRalso, RMS forgot to ask microsoft to stop extorting and suing Linux-based device vendorsOct 01 14:11
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r_schestowitzmaybe left outOct 01 14:32
r_schestowitzbut he rarely brought up this subjectOct 01 14:32
r_schestowitz 01 14:44
-TechrightsBot-tr/ | Replacing rc.local in systemd Linux systems | Enable SysadminOct 01 14:44
r_schestowitz(today)Oct 01 14:44
XRevan86schestowitz: A lengthy post about a trivial task.Oct 01 14:50
r_schestowitzlike systemd to initOct 01 14:51
XRevan86> This despite the fact that the systemd documentation mentions the use of a "generator" that generates systemd services from an rc.local file if one exists. (That seems to be a good way as any to enforce deprecation—make it not work.)Oct 01 14:51
r_schestowitzover 1 ml lines of codeOct 01 14:51
XRevan86> redhat.comOct 01 14:51
-viera/#techrights-Tux Machines: Fedora Join is trying a new people focused workflow for newcomers []Oct 01 14:53
XRevan86Reportedly systemd-rc-local-generator does work. But RHEL could break or remove it.Oct 01 14:56
XRevan86I find it funny that a blog post on doesn't try to make an informed statement about this %).Oct 01 14:57
tyilr_schestowitz: is gnome hard depending on systemd againOct 01 14:59
r_schestowitzdon't knowOct 01 14:59
r_schestowitzwhat about mono?Oct 01 14:59
tyilyou linked, which sounds by the title that gnome devs are once more hard-depending on systemd featuresOct 01 15:00
-TechrightsBot-tr/ | GNOME 3.34 is now managed using systemd – Benjamin BergOct 01 15:00
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r_schestowitzmaybe they are redhat (ibm) devsOct 01 15:01
tyiland skimming through it, it does seem like gnome devs are caring less and less about writing good softwareOct 01 15:01
r_schestowitzmany gnome people areOct 01 15:01
XRevan86 01 15:02
-TechrightsBot-tr/#techrights-Drop support for /usr/sbin/halt.local by mbiebl · Pull Request #12571 · systemd/systemd · GitHubOct 01 15:02
r_schestowitzmaybe the future of "LIIINUX" is people opening chromium and using 'cloud' 'apps'Oct 01 15:02
tyilone day people will want to migrate away from systemd, and most of the distros will be proper fuckedOct 01 15:02
r_schestowitzor they could work to repair a monstrous buggy thing that's a systemd forkOct 01 15:03
tyilI personally would've preferred software to not hard depend on a single init systemOct 01 15:04
r_schestowitzit's not an init systemOct 01 15:04
tyiland systemd proponents to have an honest discussion on init for onceOct 01 15:04
r_schestowitzit's everything now (almost)Oct 01 15:04
r_schestowitz(not yet)Oct 01 15:04
XRevan86tyil, schestowitz: Depends on whether they left a fallback.Oct 01 15:04
XRevan86The blog post itself doesn't state that GNOME stops supporting working without systemd.Oct 01 15:05
tyilr_schestowitz: systemd support for most distros was chosen with a focus on just initOct 01 15:05
tyilXRevan86: they did that ages ago alreadyOct 01 15:05
XRevan86But that for its daemons it will use a --user instance of systemd.Oct 01 15:05
tyilr_schestowitz: but in every discussion, the systemd fanboys set the narrative that the ONLY other option was sysvOct 01 15:05
XRevan86tyil: I've heard it runs fine on elogind.Oct 01 15:06
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tyilwhich had to be created because gnome didn't support anything but a systemd interfaceOct 01 15:06
XRevan86Upstart had a user running instance, Ubuntu used it extensively.Oct 01 15:06
XRevan86So that's kind of the root of systemd --userOct 01 15:07
tyilI prefer using stable and sane software, so systemd is masked from my systemsOct 01 15:08
scientesXRevan86, actuallyOct 01 15:08
scientes--user came from TizenOct 01 15:08
tyilall ideas in systemd came from other systems, which all did a better job of implementing said features :')Oct 01 15:08
XRevan86s/root/intermediate part of the chain before systems/Oct 01 15:08
scientestyil, upstart suckedOct 01 15:09
XRevan86* systemdOct 01 15:09
scienteslaunchd was the superior initOct 01 15:09
XRevan86scientes: With services in XML?Oct 01 15:09
tyilopenrc is my preferred init, but launchd is objectively a good init, especially compared to the horror that is systemdOct 01 15:09
*scientes tired of people whining and arguing when they don't know muchOct 01 15:09
tyilmy main issue is that the systemd fanatics have never had an honest discussion as to why systemd is supposedly better than alternatives, and big projects (such as gnome) are forcing distros and users to use objectively garbage softwareOct 01 15:10
XRevan86tyil: elogind also proves that the login1 D-Bus API doesn't actually need systemd, and it all boils down to that there's no alternative implementation after LoginKit and ConsoleKit2 died out.Oct 01 15:12
tyilmoot pointsOct 01 15:12
tyilelogind was made just so people can avoid most of systemd's cancer, it's a workaround to a rather big problemOct 01 15:13
XRevan86tyil: ConsoleKit2 being dead also leads to there being no alive implementation of ConsoleKit API…Oct 01 15:13
scientestyil, they actually do all the timeOct 01 15:13
scientesyou just are not listeningOct 01 15:13
tyilscientes: sure thingOct 01 15:13
tyilthat's why they always pretend there's only systemd and sysvOct 01 15:13
tyilI've read plenty of threads and discussed the issue with plenty of debian and arch devsOct 01 15:14
scientesyou just don't like changeOct 01 15:14
*XRevan86 doesn't want to defend systemd, but I'm just not sure what GNOME is supposed to implement aside from Login1Oct 01 15:14
scientesand don't know what the problems areOct 01 15:14
tyilI don't, no, especially not when the "change" is a massive downgrade in stability Oct 01 15:14
tyiland securityOct 01 15:14
scientesyou have no idea what you are talking aboutOct 01 15:14
tyilofcourse not, good thing you are completely unable to explain it and can only say "n-no, you are WRONG"Oct 01 15:15
scientes"I know you are, but what am I."Oct 01 15:15
scientes"I know you are, but what am I?"Oct 01 15:15
tyil>making retarded quotes that have no bearing on the conversation instead of answering a questionOct 01 15:15
tyilok buddyOct 01 15:15
tyilyou do you :)Oct 01 15:15
scienteswhere is the question mark?Oct 01 15:16
tyilI guess I can stand by my argument that thus far, no systemd fanboy has been able to have an honest conversationOct 01 15:16
scientesyou aren't listeningOct 01 15:16
*XRevan86 will go get some food.Oct 01 15:17
tyilare you just going to repeat that whenever you have no answers?Oct 01 15:17
scientesYou don't even know what data structure systemd is based onOct 01 15:17
tyilI mean, I shouldn't expect anything from a systemd fanboyOct 01 15:17
scientestyil, is that a question?Oct 01 15:17
scientestyil, are you talking to somebody?Oct 01 15:17
tyilI understand it's hard for you to not be able to "win" a discussion with stupid remarks, scientes, but please try to keep upOct 01 15:18
scientesI don't see any conversationOct 01 15:18
scientesand again "I know you are, but what am I?"Oct 01 15:18
tyilofcourse not, you ignore everything that doesn't fit your narrativeOct 01 15:18
scienteslook in the mirrorOct 01 15:18
tyilas is typical in these discussions with a systemd fanboyOct 01 15:18
scientestyil, seriously, you haven't made a single technical pointOct 01 15:19
tyilok buddyOct 01 15:19
tyilkeep ignoring literally everything I say and pretend you're enlightenedOct 01 15:19
scientesonce you make a technical point, I will answer itOct 01 15:19
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scientes"I know you are, but what am I?"Oct 01 15:19
scientestyil, what have you said?Oct 01 15:19
scientesYou haven't said anything.Oct 01 15:20
tyilhmm, you've repeated your silly retarded remark 4 times nowOct 01 15:20
tyilare you honestly thinking just repeating stupid shit over and over is "winning" an argument?Oct 01 15:20
scientesI haven't tried to win an argument.Oct 01 15:20
scientesI am waiting for you to make an argument.Oct 01 15:20
tyilyou could read the scrollback for thatOct 01 15:20
scientesYou haven't made an argument yet.Oct 01 15:21
XRevan86I'll just say that I find hardcoding on systemd a bad idea, because portability is good.Oct 01 15:21
scientesjust baseless allegationsOct 01 15:21
tyilok buddyOct 01 15:21
tyilyou just keep repeating yourself over and over thenOct 01 15:21
tyilyou will "win" the discussion eventually, I'm sure!Oct 01 15:21
scientesXRevan86, but you can't make that argument until you know the problems it solvesOct 01 15:21
XRevan86But if we get back to logind/elogind, what is the alternative that GNOME should have supported as well?Oct 01 15:21
scienteslogind supports multi-seatOct 01 15:22
scientesbefore that was impossible, for yearsOct 01 15:22
scientestyil, i have repeatedly said that I am not trying to win any argumentOct 01 15:22
scientesyou are taking me for a straw manOct 01 15:22
tyilwhatever you need to tell yourself to "win" the discussion in your mind, scientes Oct 01 15:22
scientesI'm still waiting for an argument to be made.Oct 01 15:22
tyilthere's no discussion to be had with someone like youOct 01 15:22
scientesthere is no discussionOct 01 15:22
scientesbecause you haven't said anything substansialOct 01 15:23
tyilindeed, you're ignoring everything that doesn't fit your narrative and then repeat yourself over and over to look smartOct 01 15:23
scientesignored....Oct 01 15:23
scientes /ignore tyrilOct 01 15:23
tyil"h-he doesn't fall for my obvious ploy, better ignore him quickly!!"Oct 01 15:23
tyilok buddyOct 01 15:23
scientesProverbs 26:5Oct 01 15:23
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XRevan86(14:10:44) tyil: my main issue is that the systemd fanatics have never had an honest discussion as to why systemd is supposedly better than alternatives, and big projects (such as gnome) are forcing distros and users to use objectively garbage softwareOct 01 15:28
XRevan86(14:13:34) scientes: tyil, they actually do all the timeOct 01 15:28
XRevan86(14:13:37) scientes: you just are not listeningOct 01 15:28
XRevan86That's how your arguing started, right?Oct 01 15:28
tyilseems so, yesOct 01 15:28
scientes 01 15:29
-TechrightsBot-tr/ | Rethinking PID 1Oct 01 15:29
tyilscientes seems to be hellbent on ignoring everything he dislikes, and just spam whatever he thinks makes him look smart, thoOct 01 15:29
tyilkind of a sad way to remove discussion from a channelOct 01 15:30
scientesinsulting people is a great way to get them to explain their position /sarcasmOct 01 15:30
tyilI only came in here originally to inform about a broken https configurationOct 01 15:30
r_schestowitzwe'll sort if out when upgradingOct 01 15:30
tyilscientes: indeed, so I have no clue why you went on the path of calling everyone with differing opinions unknowledgedOct 01 15:31
r_schestowitz*itOct 01 15:31
XRevan86scientes: *You* made it personal first though.Oct 01 15:31
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*XRevan86 re-reads.Oct 01 15:34
XRevan86scientes: Did you see "systemd fanatics have never had an honest discussion as to why systemd is supposedly better than alternatives" as a reply to you saying that "upstart sucked; launchd was the superior init"?Oct 01 15:35
XRevan86Seemingly this escalated over nothing.Oct 01 15:35
scientesI kept saying there was nothingOct 01 15:36
scientesbecause the critics generally are not familiar with the issuesOct 01 15:36
XRevan86scientes: tyil's argument is the same except 180°Oct 01 15:36
scientesexcept I don't believe himOct 01 15:37
scientesI think  he just wants an argumentOct 01 15:37
tyilif you're unwilling to explain the issues that I'm apparently unaware of while managing a couple hundred servers, please doOct 01 15:37
tyilbut instead you're going out of your way to tell me I don't understand anything, I don't read, whatever you're sayingOct 01 15:37
scientes 01 15:38
-TechrightsBot-tr/#techrights-Argument - YouTubeOct 01 15:38
tyilclearly you're incapable of having an argumentOct 01 15:38
tyilor discussion, evenOct 01 15:38
XRevan86scientes: What's your opinion on MinceR's view on systemd?Oct 01 15:38
tyilif you're just going to conclude everyone is wrong at the start, then insult their knowledge, and start just repeating whatever it is you think makes you smartOct 01 15:38
tyilall I wanted was you to explain me the things I supposedly can't comprehend with my 0 knowledge on computers, but whateverOct 01 15:39
tyilI'm done with trying to get you to talkOct 01 15:39
tyilall I'm getting are petty remarks or attempts at looking enlightenedOct 01 15:40
XRevan86tyil: Isn't it a petty remark to claim from the start that those who defend systemd are apriori incapable of having an honest conversations?Oct 01 15:41
scienteshehe, KantOct 01 15:41
tyilthat's a conclusion I've reached from reading Debian MLs, Archlinux MLs and attending talks on Systemd (one from Poettering himself)Oct 01 15:41
tyilthey *always* pretend there's only systemd and sysvOct 01 15:42
XRevan86 01 15:42
tyilbut I can understand I should've worded it differently at least to make the remark less arrogantOct 01 15:42
tyilalso, in my defense, it's not that I said they *cannot* have an honest discussion, it's just that they've never done so in public thus far when trying to push for systemdOct 01 15:44
tyilgoing by what just happened here, I see no change in that behaviour, thoughOct 01 15:45
r_schestowitzsystemd might have some features and technical merit, but that's a shallow criterionOct 01 15:45
XRevan86tyil: Just don't get anyone on the defensive from the get-goOct 01 15:45
r_schestowitzdiversity seems to be a key problem, it's not made to be sufficiently modularOct 01 15:45
XRevan86scientes: Don't get defensive on the get-go so easilyOct 01 15:45
scientesr_schestowitz, lots of stuff can be disabledOct 01 15:46
tyilXRevan86: that comment was mostly inspired since I apparently don't know much about my systemOct 01 15:46
tyilbut alrightOct 01 15:46
tyilI'll try :)Oct 01 15:46
tyilr_schestowitz: if I were to pick and choose systemd features easily without requiring the entire blob of it I might've been more interested in trying out certain features onlyOct 01 15:47
scienteswhen an AT&T insturction has three arguments, is the destination the second argument?Oct 01 15:47
tyilbut I need all components, and then turn them off (and pray it actually doesn't depend on it in some weird way after all) to get things workingOct 01 15:47
XRevan86tyil, scientes: A lot of instance blocks on the Fediverse happen on similiar grounds.Oct 01 15:48
XRevan86I haven't had a conversation there in years.Oct 01 15:48
XRevan86Those who agree put a like, those who disagree block me.Oct 01 15:48
tyilXRevan86: any admin that blocks an instance over disagreement is not an instance I care aboutOct 01 15:48
tyilso they're free to turn themselves into a bubble of agreementOct 01 15:48
scientesXRevan86, the base of systemd is a DAG of dependanciesOct 01 15:49
scientesthis is the only way that makes any senseOct 01 15:49
scientesbut if you don't know what a DAG is, you are not qualified to discuss itOct 01 15:49
XRevan86scientes: A directed acyclic graph?Oct 01 15:49
scientesyesOct 01 15:49
XRevan86tyil: In the end there's a big chunk of the network that I completely don't understand and which apparently hates my guts.Oct 01 15:52
XRevan86(not my guts personally, just of "my kind")Oct 01 15:52
tyilXRevan86: same, but nobody on that side is willing to explain their positionsOct 01 15:52
scientesagain, is the second argument the destination?Oct 01 15:52
scientesvpmsumd$Xm,$IN,$H# H.hi·H.lo+H.lo·H.hiOct 01 15:52
scientescause that is super confusingOct 01 15:52
tyilthey just block (either personally, or as an instance block) whenever you question their stanceOct 01 15:52
scientesthis is why i hate assemblyOct 01 15:52
XRevan86tyil: yesOct 01 15:53
scientesyou spend have the time with stupid issuesOct 01 15:53
scientesor more than halfOct 01 15:53
tyildoesn't make me stop asking questions, tho :'DOct 01 15:53
scientestyil, did you read that blog post?Oct 01 15:53
scientesdo you know what a DAG is?Oct 01 15:53
tyilscientes: I do, and even if I didn't, the answer is 1 search query away, so it's kinda stupid to make that the "terms" of being able to discuss things with youOct 01 15:54
tyilyou're just making up arbitrary silly rules to be *allowed* to discuss things with youOct 01 15:54
scientesits not 1 search query awayOct 01 15:54
*scientes is allowed to ignore peopleOct 01 15:54
tyilpretty much every abbreviation is 1 search query away, and a wikipedia search in addition will tell you everything you need to know about the actual use of any abbreviationOct 01 15:54
scientes*allowed*Oct 01 15:55
tyilyes, but that doesn't make you a decent human being :)Oct 01 15:55
scienteswho are you to think your (non-) points are SOOO important?Oct 01 15:55
tyilI'm also not sure why you want to start up drama again, when XRevan86 just tried to settle the dustOct 01 15:55
XRevan86Proverbs 22:4Oct 01 15:56
tyilyou wanted a discussion, I raise my personal issues agaisnt systemd, it doesn't really matter if you think those are born out of stupidity or anything else, those are issues I have with systemd, hence I raise them when someone wants issuesOct 01 15:57
tyilthat you don't consider them valid or whatever doesn't change the fact that I find those to be issues with systemdOct 01 15:57
XRevan86As an atheist those proverbs just look like "inspirational quotes" but with a moral kickOct 01 15:57
scientesthat is all they areOct 01 15:57
scientesUpset people get to pull the water wagon. :)Oct 01 15:58
XRevan86scientes: You really like that saying I see %)Oct 01 15:59
scientesI don't think I've come across that thought beforeOct 01 15:59
scientesso it stuckOct 01 16:00
scientesI also like "you can't juice a turnip"Oct 01 16:00
scientesbecause i see so many fools that tryOct 01 16:00
XRevan86scientes: It's one single Russian proverb that I don't completely get and you loved it %)Oct 01 16:00
scienteshere is an explicationOct 01 16:03
scienteswith the statue in St PetersbergOct 01 16:03
scientes 01 16:03
-TechrightsBot-tr/#techrights-RU Upset LOL? - YouTubeOct 01 16:03
XRevan86scientes: The (evidental) history of the proverb doesn't really match its contemporary use.Oct 01 16:05
XRevan86Which isn't all that surprising for proverbs.Oct 01 16:06
-->IP2Innovate (5e6bf29e@ has joined #techrightsOct 01 16:07
r_schestowitzhi IP2InnovateOct 01 16:08
r_schestowitzany new report?Oct 01 16:08
IP2InnovateIndustry calls on upcoming EU Commissioner for Internal Market to bring greater balance to Europe’s patent legal system and adapt it to the digital ageOct 01 16:09
IP2InnovateBrussels, 1 October 2019Oct 01 16:09
IP2InnovateAhead of the parliamentary hearing of the EU Commissioner-designate for the Internal Market Sylvie Goulard, the cross-sector industry coalition IP2Innovate sent a letter to the Commissioner-designate urging her to take steps as part of her mission to bring balance to Europe’s patent system to ensure it supports the region’s digital growthOct 01 16:09
IP2Innovateambitions and enhances competitiveness in critical technology sectors. Oct 01 16:09
IP2InnovateCommission President-elect Ursula von der Leyen in her mission letter to Goulard asked her to “take a close look at [EU’s] intellectual property regime to ensure that it is coherent, is fit for the digital age and supports our competitiveness”. According to IP2Innovate, an effective and balanced patent legal system is an importantOct 01 16:09
IP2Innovateprerequisite for Europe to be able to compete globally in the next frontier of technologies, such as blockchain and artificial intelligence. Unfortunately, the experience of IP2Innovate member companies, and many other European innovators, is that Europe’s patent system presently lacks this necessary balance, making it harder for companies toOct 01 16:09
IP2Innovatescale up and bring new products to market rapidly. Oct 01 16:09
IP2Innovate“In the digital age, products are increasingly complex, often covered by thousands of patents, which make them constantly subject to patent disputes”, IP2Innovate said in its letter to the Commissioner-designate. “Because the practice of many European courts is to issue automatic injunctions upon a finding of infringement, without consideringOct 01 16:09
IP2Innovatea remedy that could be more proportionate, an accidental infringement of just one patent among many others can result in removing from the market a product necessary to access digital goods or services”. Oct 01 16:09
IP2InnovateAccording to IP2Innovate, this situation makes Europe more and more attractive to Patent Assertion Entities (PAEs), also known as “patent trolls”, who buy up patents only to assert them against innovative companies, including SMEs, and extract high settlement. These entities increasingly target the ICT-industry, central to growth and innovationOct 01 16:09
IP2Innovateacross many industries. Oct 01 16:09
IP2InnovateUnder the leadership of Commissioner-designate Goulard, IP2Innovate calls on the European Commission to take concrete steps to bring greater balance to Europe’s patent legal system to support the region’s digital growth ambitions and secure its competitiveness in critical technology sectors. Oct 01 16:09
IP2InnovateRead the full letter here: 01 16:09
IP2InnovateFor further information, please contact:Oct 01 16:09
IP2InnovatePatrick OliverOct 01 16:09
IP2InnovateExecutive Director, IP2InnovateOct 01 16:09
IP2InnovateEmail: contact@ip2innovate.euOct 01 16:09
IP2InnovateMobile: +32-477-597065Oct 01 16:09
scientesholy moleyOct 01 16:09
r_schestowitzyeahOct 01 16:09
r_schestowitzI may need to flatten itOct 01 16:10
scientesdid Cathrine the Great really like having sex with large animals?Oct 01 16:10
scienteshahahahaOct 01 16:10
r_schestowitzis there a URL with this press release in it?Oct 01 16:10
XRevan86scientes: I have to admit the history classes left that out leaving me uneducated on the matterOct 01 16:11
IP2Innovate 01 16:11
IP2Innovate 01 16:11
-TechrightsBot-tr/ | Industry calls on upcoming EU Commissioner for Internal Market to bring greater balance to Europe’s patent legal system and adapt it to the digital age | IP2InnovateOct 01 16:11
r_schestowitzthank youOct 01 16:11
scientesthis says it isn't true 01 16:12
<--IP2Innovate has quit (Remote host closed the connection)Oct 01 16:12
r_schestowitzI might write about it later todayOct 01 16:12
-TechrightsBot-tr/ | Is it true about Catherine the Great and the horse? – The Straight DopeOct 01 16:12
scientes"The story about Catherine’s alleged yen for horses probably has its roots in the fact that she had an active and unusually public sex life. She had numerous lovers throughout her long reign, one of whom, Grigori Potemkin, procured young men for her after their own relationship cooled. "Oct 01 16:12
XRevan86Список_мужчин_Екатерины_IIOct 01 16:13
-TechrightsBot-tr/ | Список мужчин Екатерины II — ВикипедияOct 01 16:13
XRevan86"A list of men of Cathrine the Great"Oct 01 16:13
XRevan86A separate articleOct 01 16:13
scientesheheheheheOct 01 16:13
scientesor Cathrine IIOct 01 16:14
XRevan86Yea, "Great" as an epithet is very generic.Oct 01 16:15
*XRevan86 generally tries not to use it.Oct 01 16:15
scientesI was just noting it wasn't part of the titleOct 01 16:15
XRevan86it's not a title, yesOct 01 16:16
scientestitle of the wikipedia article...Oct 01 16:16
XRevan86ahOct 01 16:16
XRevan86My mind already went to the realm of "what if there are people who think that Ivan IV had Grozny/"Terrible" in the job description" :DOct 01 16:17
*XRevan86 now thinks about the word "terrible".Oct 01 16:19
XRevan86I mainly think of it to mean very bad, but it is from the word "terror".Oct 01 16:20
XRevan86and in that more literal sense it makes sense as a translation for ГрозныйOct 01 16:21
XRevan86~"formidable"Oct 01 16:21
scientesInconsolableOct 01 16:21
scientesFerociousOct 01 16:21
scientesIvan IV the Terrorist :)Oct 01 16:22
XRevan86Inconsolable – definitely not thatOct 01 16:22
XRevan86Ferocious – that's more about doing something than making an impression,Oct 01 16:23
XRevan86(which works as an epithet for Ivan IV too, but not as a translation of the existing one)Oct 01 16:23
XRevan86Dangerous maybe (:Oct 01 16:25
-viera/#techrights-Tux Machines: Daniel Martin Gomez: Hacking GNU for the first time []Oct 01 16:29
-viera/#techrights-Tux Machines: Linux Mint Debian Edition 4 to Be Dubbed "Debbie," New Linux Mint Logo Unveiled []Oct 01 16:30
-viera/#techrights-Tux Machines: Stable kernels 5.3.2, 5.2.18, and 4.19.76 []Oct 01 16:31
-viera/#techrights-Tux Machines: #Android Leftovers []Oct 01 16:33
scientesXRevan86, i mean that his perchance for violence was inconsolableOct 01 16:35
scientes*pencanceOct 01 16:35
scientesuggh spellingOct 01 16:35
scientesinclination towardsOct 01 16:35
scientesmercylessOct 01 16:35
scientes*mercilessOct 01 16:35
-viera/#techrights-Tux Machines: Graphics Leftovers []Oct 01 16:39
XRevan86Безжалостный? nahOct 01 16:40
-viera/#techrights-Tux Machines: Devices: Amlogic, Ibase, Atomic Pi and Teclast []Oct 01 16:44
-viera/#techrights-Tux Machines: Debian Reports/Posts From Mike Gabriel, Ben Hutchings, Abhijith PA and Norbert Preining []Oct 01 16:49
MinceR 01 17:06
MinceR 01 17:07
MinceRin 01 17:11
-TechrightsBot-tr/ | Red Hat is Not the Company You Once Knew | TechrightsOct 01 17:11
MinceR"It’s no secret that systemd develops have also applied for (and received) patents."Oct 01 17:11
MinceR"develops" should probably be "developers"Oct 01 17:11
XRevan86Who's this Anatoly?Oct 01 17:12
XRevan86Oh, an HBO’s Chernobyl character.Oct 01 17:17
MinceRalso a real world characterOct 01 17:22
XRevan86 indeedOct 01 17:23
-TechrightsBot-tr/ | Anatoly Dyatlov - WikipediaOct 01 17:23
XRevan86> По словам Дятлова, ближе к середине ночи он убедился в разрушении реактора после обнаружения на территории станции реакторного графита. Эти сведения подтверждаются воспоминаниями одного из начальников смены четвертоOct 01 17:31
XRevan86го энергоблока Юрия Трегуба. Согласно Дятлову, ночью он сообщал о разрушении реактора, но его слова были проигнорированы.Oct 01 17:31
XRevan86that kind of contradicts the graphite on the ground meme I foundOct 01 17:32
XRevan86Stupid WikipediaOct 01 17:32
scientesXRevan86, that is a stupid movieOct 01 17:32
scientesthey are just pissed that Rusatom is signing agreements with Iran and BoliviaOct 01 17:32
MinceRlolOct 01 17:36
r_schestowitz 01 17:57
-TechrightsBot-tr/#techrights-@zoobab: IBM Belinda Gascoyne lobbying for software patents once again at WIPO 01 17:57
-TechrightsBot-tr/#techrights--> | WIPO Conversation on Intellectual Property and Artificial Intelligence (September 27, 2019)Oct 01 17:57
XRevan86 01 18:03
-TechrightsBot-tr/ | WayfireOct 01 18:03
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MinceRdoes it work without *logind APIs? does it support server-side decorations?Oct 01 18:22
r_schestowitz 01 18:49
-TechrightsBot-tr/ | What Stallman wants : FreeAsInFreedomOct 01 18:49
r_schestowitz 01 18:49
-TechrightsBot-tr/ | What Stallman wants : StallmanWasRightOct 01 18:49
-viera/#techrights-Tux Machines: Red Hat Leftovers []Oct 01 18:58
-viera/#techrights-Tux Machines: today's howtos []Oct 01 19:05
-viera/#techrights-Tux Machines: LibreOffice 10/20 Logo Community Contest []Oct 01 19:13
-viera/#techrights-Tux Machines: Programming: C, Python and GNU Guix []Oct 01 19:24
MinceR 01 19:29
-viera/#techrights-Tux Machines: today's leftovers []Oct 01 19:46
MinceR(audio:important) 01 19:47
XRevan86> Guess what? You should patch Exim again!Oct 01 19:53
XRevan86Now that's a title of real Journalism quality.Oct 01 19:53
scientesheheheheOct 01 19:54
scientesyeah, thats pretty goodOct 01 19:54
r_schestowitzbaitersOct 01 19:54
scientesnot reallyOct 01 19:55
scientesit gives you enough info that you could skip directly to the patchOct 01 19:55
scientesthe trick of bait is to not give enough infoOct 01 19:55
XRevan86"Guess what? There's an unattended-upgrades package in Debian that is installed by default. Yea, you're pretty much set already, we don't know why we wrote this."Oct 01 19:56
r_schestowitz:-)Oct 01 19:56
scientesoh thats newOct 01 19:56
r_schestowitzexactlyOct 01 19:56
scientesit use to be only UbuntuOct 01 19:56
r_schestowitzthe title tells you what to doOct 01 19:56
r_schestowitznow whyOct 01 19:56
r_schestowitz*notOct 01 19:56
r_schestowitzheadline: you should probably not to New YorkOct 01 19:57
r_schestowitzbetter headline: planes crash into 2 buildings in NYCOct 01 19:57
r_schestowitz*should not goOct 01 19:57
scientesr_schestowitz, better headline: pictureOct 01 19:57
scientesbut yeah that is what the headline wasOct 01 19:58
MinceRdebian used to be different from ubuntu :>Oct 01 19:58
scientesnot that it wasn't an inside job or anythingOct 01 19:58
r_schestowitzadd caption: "controlled domoliSHEN MAN!!Oct 01 19:58
MinceR"Simon says: bleed."Oct 01 19:58
scientesbuilding 7 collapses for no apparent reasonOct 01 19:58
kaniiniit is all epstein's faultOct 01 19:59
kaniiniepstein did 9/11Oct 01 19:59
kaniinigive me some time and i'll come up with an explanationOct 01 19:59
XRevan86"Guess what? Exim's not very secure, but if you're interested in this kind click-baity of articles odds are the biggest security issue of your systems is YOU"Oct 01 20:00
scientesXRevan86, I don't read any news of techOct 01 20:01
XRevan86s/click-baity of/of click-baity/Oct 01 20:01
scientesso I am indifferntOct 01 20:01
scientesexcept lwn.netOct 01 20:01
scienteswhich is excellentOct 01 20:01
scientesI mean, even they suffer from technical lack sometimesOct 01 20:01
scientesbut can you expect anything out of the other sites?Oct 01 20:01
*XRevan86 reads OpenNET's opennews (in Russian).Oct 01 20:02
scientesdo they have good stuff?Oct 01 20:04
scienteslike in-depth long articlesOct 01 20:04
*scientes never understood TwitterOct 01 20:04
XRevan86scientes: It's not political.Oct 01 20:04
scientesbunch of ADD suffersOct 01 20:04
scientesneither is lwn.netOct 01 20:05
scientesI'm talking about long technical articlesOct 01 20:05
-viera/#techrights-Tux Machines: Links 1/10/2019: Linux 5.3.2 and LibreOffice 10/20 Logo Community Contest []Oct 01 20:05
XRevan86scientes: open*news*Oct 01 20:06
scientesyeah there really isn't much new in techOct 01 20:06
scientesand the good stuff usually gets buriedOct 01 20:06
XRevan86 so this kind of stuffOct 01 20:06
-TechrightsBot-tr/ | ??? ??? ?????? LLVM 9.0Oct 01 20:06
scienteslike Google trying to create their own libc in the llvm repoOct 01 20:06
XRevan86 01 20:06
-viera/#techrights-Tux Machines: GeForce RTX SUPER Linux Compute Performance - 18 GPU NVIDIA OpenCL Comparison []Oct 01 20:06
-TechrightsBot-tr/ | Debian ?????? ? ???? ????? ????? ??? ???????Oct 01 20:06
XRevan86"?????? ? ???? ????? ????? ??? ???????" – if anyone's wondering, they're using KOI8-ROct 01 20:07
-viera/#techrights-Tux Machines: #Android Leftovers []Oct 01 20:07
XRevan86 01 20:07
-TechrightsBot-tr/ | ??? ????? ???? ?? ????? ??? ??Oct 01 20:07
scientesahh yes, its just a translation of the release notesOct 01 20:08
scientes(I happen to be quite familiar with them as I develop Zig)Oct 01 20:09
scientesand was involved in LLVM this cycleOct 01 20:09
scientesall non-UTF8 encodings should die in a fireOct 01 20:09
scienteslike the LLVM notes are in UTF-8 but firefox tries to display them in Latin-1Oct 01 20:10
XRevan86scientes: Apparently, their ancient perl code makes it hard to change the encoding.Oct 01 20:10
scientesand Russian is the *first* non-latin alphabet in unicodeOct 01 20:11
XRevan86* CyrillicOct 01 20:11
scientesyeah, but people call Latin English all the timeOct 01 20:11
scientescan't I do the same? :)Oct 01 20:11
XRevan86scientes: Well, okay %)Oct 01 20:12
XRevan86scientes: The "Basic Cyrillic alphabet" in Unicode is practically Russian.Oct 01 20:13
XRevan86minus the undepreciated Ё letterOct 01 20:13
scientessame goes for LatinOct 01 20:13
scientesas so many languages want special charactersOct 01 20:13
XRevan86Ъ, Ы, Э – these "Basic" Cyrillic letters are missing in the Ukrainian Cyrillic alphabet, for instance.Oct 01 20:15
XRevan86So yea, the Russianness of Cyrillic is obvious from just looking at it.Oct 01 20:17
XRevan86in UnicodeOct 01 20:17
scientesbut isn't that the only Cyrillic? /trollOct 01 20:18
scientesJust like all these languages that use Latin characters with funny looking things not really Latin?Oct 01 20:18
XRevan86 this is the stupidest illustration…Oct 01 20:20
-TechrightsBot-tr/ | File:Pronunciation of C in Europe.png - WikipediaOct 01 20:20
XRevan86"Pronunciation of written ⟨c⟩ in European languages"Oct 01 20:20
XRevan86RF, Ukraine, Belarus': [s] CyrillicOct 01 20:20
XRevan86brilliantOct 01 20:21
scientesoh wowOct 01 20:21
scienteswikipedia is full of stuff like that howeverOct 01 20:21
scientesI think getting stoned and editing wikipedia is a thingOct 01 20:22
XRevan86Meanwhile, *actually* the Latin letter "c" is usually named "tse"Oct 01 20:22
XRevan86and "j" is usually named "zhi"Oct 01 20:25
XRevan86French-likeOct 01 20:25
scientesuggh, I wish I learned languages earlier in lifeOct 01 20:25
aindilisI don't know anything about Cyrillic but I saw a diagram: 01 20:27
XRevan86All one needs to know here is that "с" and "c" are literally two different letters with different histories and purpose.Oct 01 20:28
scientesugggh I hate c89Oct 01 20:28
scientesyou can't see the typesOct 01 20:28
scientes^^^Oct 01 20:28
scientesyepOct 01 20:28
XRevan86aindilis: All the data seems right. The circles are confusing though.Oct 01 20:29
XRevan86all blend togetherOct 01 20:29
XRevan86scientes: Scroll a little up :POct 01 20:29
scienteswhat about c89?Oct 01 20:30
XRevan86aindilis: Also misses out on including the pre-1918 reform Greater Russian alphabetOct 01 20:31
scientesaindilis, looks like it is going to explode Oct 01 20:31
scientesor generate electricityOct 01 20:31
scientesand Mongolian is converting back to the Uygher alphabetOct 01 20:31
scientesthat the Mongols usedOct 01 20:31
XRevan86This reminded me that it also misses out on the Kazakh alphabet.Oct 01 20:32
XRevan86From what I've seen the new glorious Nazarbayev's Latin Kazakh alphabet isn't being picked up with enthusiasm.Oct 01 20:33
scientesI don't get the obsession with LatinOct 01 20:34
scienteslike English orthography blowsOct 01 20:34
scientesand Latin has lots of problemsOct 01 20:34
aindilis 01 20:34
-TechrightsBot-tr/#techrights-It's a Cyrillic alphabet! - YouTubeOct 01 20:34
MinceRthe others are worseOct 01 20:34
MinceRmore complicated, more clutteredOct 01 20:35
scientesis cyrillic really woorse?Oct 01 20:35
scientesI think Unspell is pretty beautifulOct 01 20:35
XRevan86scientes: I wanted to state the semi-official rationale but I forgot what it was.Oct 01 20:35
scientesXRevan86, love of the US?Oct 01 20:35
XRevan86scientes: ASCII-compatibility basically.Oct 01 20:36
XRevan86aindilis: Now I want to know the context %)Oct 01 20:36
scientescipher-gcm-ppc.c:167:8: error: argument 1 must be a 5-bit signed literalOct 01 20:36
scientes  167 |   c2 = vec_splat_u8(0xf0);Oct 01 20:36
scientesand people ask why I don't try to use C for my SIMD projectOct 01 20:36
aindilisXRevan86: it's a guilty pleasure of mine, the Transformers moviesOct 01 20:37
-viera/#techrights-Tux Machines: FSF/GNU: ActivityPub Conf, International Day against DRM (IDAD) and GNU Poke []Oct 01 20:37
XRevan86"it's like all the buttons you never push on the calculator" – because it's closer to Greek, he-he?Oct 01 20:37
MinceRunspell? why not the Ancient alphabet then? :>Oct 01 20:37
scientesMinceR, unspell.blogspot.comOct 01 20:39
XRevan86MinceR: As uncluttered as façade, rèsumè, piñata <:Oct 01 20:42
scientesavergüenzaOct 01 20:42
scienteseven Español has an umlaut!Oct 01 20:43
-viera/#techrights-Tux Machines: Today in Techrights []Oct 01 20:43
XRevan86how archaïcOct 01 20:43
XRevan86Where's the ASCII compatibility in that?Oct 01 20:44
MinceRyeah, i've seen unspellOct 01 20:46
MinceRseems painful to readOct 01 20:47
XRevan86scientes: Anyway, the alphabet in the Basic Latin character set can be chacaterised not as "English" but as "New Latin" or "Neo-Latin"Oct 01 20:47
scientesyeah I knowOct 01 20:48
scienteswith the lower-case charactersOct 01 20:48
scientesand lacking quite a few combined glyphsOct 01 20:48
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XRevan86scientes: lower-case character qualify as Neo-LatinOct 01 20:49
XRevan86charactersOct 01 20:49
XRevan86so are "J" and the V/U distinctionOct 01 20:50
XRevan86I guess that fails to account for "W" though.Oct 01 20:51
scientesUUOct 01 20:51
scientesVVOct 01 20:51
XRevan86scientes: I can't find any evidence it was used in medieval Latin scripts.Oct 01 20:52
-viera/#techrights-Tux Machines: Kernel: Slab Memory Controller and USB 4.0 []Oct 01 20:52
scientesI have a function that just isn't ending up in my .oOct 01 20:52
scientesand i have no idea whyOct 01 20:52
XRevan86 01 20:53
XRevan86> By the mid-17th century, the letter v was commonly used for the consonantal sound of Roman V, which in most pronunciations of Latin in the New Latin period was [v] (and not [w]), as in vulnus "wound", corvus "crow".  Where the pronunciation remained [w], as after g, q and s, the spelling u continued to be used for the consonant, e.g. in lingua, qualis, and suadeo.Oct 01 20:53
-TechrightsBot-tr/ | New Latin - WikipediaOct 01 20:53
scientesahh i forgot to rename itOct 01 20:53
XRevan86 01 20:55
-TechrightsBot-tr/ | Botanical Latin - WikipediaOct 01 20:55
XRevan86> The Classical Latin alphabet consisted of 21 letters, to which w, y, and z were later added, and the vowel/consonant pairs i and j, u and v, were later separated.Oct 01 20:55
XRevan86There we go, Botanical Latin! %)Oct 01 20:55
scientesbut now people act like it can't changeOct 01 20:57
scienteseven though its a piece of shitOct 01 20:57
scientesat least EnglishOct 01 20:57
scientesjust like people lost the ability to change political mapsOct 01 20:57
XRevan86scientes: I think the biggest issue is making a good level-headed orthography that works for all accents.Oct 01 20:58
XRevan86* grammarOct 01 20:58
XRevan86Right now English grammar is a compromise between all accents by representing none of them %)Oct 01 20:59
XRevan86now if you try to fix that and get something more phonetic and consistent, well, you've got a big problem to solveOct 01 21:00
XRevan86and you won't be able to add it incrementally into the existing systemOct 01 21:00
scientesXRevan86, who still pronounces English with a rolled R?Oct 01 21:00
scientes> grammarOct 01 21:00
scienteslike this wordOct 01 21:00
scientes> RightOct 01 21:01
scientesand this oneOct 01 21:01
XRevan86scientes: Um, "R" still makes sense.Oct 01 21:01
XRevan86even if the phoneme changed, it's still distinctOct 01 21:01
scientesyeah but the vowels attached to itOct 01 21:01
scientesthose are not pronoucedOct 01 21:01
scientesthey are all schwasOct 01 21:01
XRevan86a schwa is a vowelOct 01 21:01
XRevan86and it's irrespective of ROct 01 21:02
XRevan86London – there's no non-schwa vowel hereOct 01 21:02
XRevan86and no R eitherOct 01 21:03
scientes> eitherOct 01 21:03
scienteswhy not eithor ?Oct 01 21:04
scientesor eitharOct 01 21:04
scientesor eithurOct 01 21:04
scientesthey are all pronounced the sameOct 01 21:04
XRevan86to me it's aythaOct 01 21:05
scientesdon't do phonets with englishOct 01 21:06
scientesits impossibleOct 01 21:06
scientes<optimized out>Oct 01 21:06
XRevan86also doesn't account for voiceness of "th"…Oct 01 21:07
XRevan86I wanted to rewrite with Cyrillic but remembered "ѳ" is voiceless.Oct 01 21:07
scientesdoes russian have a voiced ѳ?Oct 01 21:07
XRevan86scientes: Russian has neitherOct 01 21:08
XRevan86it's an archaic letter loaned from Greek for more literal respellingsOct 01 21:08
XRevan86was phased out in 1918Oct 01 21:08
scientesoh yeah, I love build systems that delete random shitOct 01 21:09
XRevan86and just as theta, voicelessOct 01 21:09
scientesþOct 01 21:09
scientes<optimized out>Oct 01 21:10
XRevan86I think that one is voiceless in Icelandic, with ð being voicedOct 01 21:10
XRevan86yepOct 01 21:11
XRevan86so ajðaOct 01 21:11
XRevan86 Bashkir CyrillicOct 01 21:12
-TechrightsBot-tr/ | Dhe (Cyrillic) - WikipediaOct 01 21:12
XRevan86айҙаOct 01 21:12
XRevan86ugh, Bashkir Cyrillic also appropriated "ө" as an ö-like sound.Oct 01 21:14
XRevan86looks similiar, amirite?Oct 01 21:14
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MinceR 01 22:38
*XRevan86 is rewatching Futurama. Saw "Bendless Love" just now.Oct 01 22:42
XRevan86The professor being unreasonably happy reminded me of a Monty Python and the Holy Grail sketch.Oct 01 22:42
XRevan86and then at the end he sang a little song with a tune very similiar to Always Look On the Bright Side of Life.Oct 01 22:43
XRevan86And I thought that I'm going insane by thinking of Monty Python from the professor being jollyOct 01 22:44
XRevan86 01 22:44
-TechrightsBot-tr/ | Bendless Love/References | Futurama Wiki | FANDOM powered by WikiaOct 01 22:44
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MinceR 01 23:41
XRevan86Should've asked about SuperTuxKartOct 01 23:42
MinceR:>Oct 01 23:42
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decnetping ..Oct 01 23:43
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XRevan86decnet: pongOct 01 23:44
decnetHi there ..Oct 01 23:45
XRevan86decnet: hiOct 01 23:45
decnetAn unbearable itch to migrate your OS to the cloud? You might have a case of Windows VD : 01 23:45
-TechrightsBot-tr/ | An unbearable itch to migrate your OS to the cloud? You might have a case of Windows VD • The RegisterOct 01 23:45
decnetInteresting comment: "Isn't this sort of thing exactly what Sun tried with its JavaStations? They were a total failure too."Oct 01 23:46
decnetWe all know why Suns Java failed:Oct 01 23:46
decnet 01 23:46
-TechrightsBot-tr/ | Key platform challenges from Java and NC - TechrightsOct 01 23:46
decnetI would post a rebuttal, except my comments are perpetually in moderation :[Oct 01 23:48
scientes400ms latency is just not bearableOct 01 23:59

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