Join us now at the IRC channel.
| XRevan86 | scientes: Why wouldn't they run it? | Oct 01 00:00 |
|---|---|---|
| scientes | cause some 64-bit arms don't support 32-bit mode | Oct 01 00:00 |
| scientes | (they don't put those in phones for obvious reasons) | Oct 01 00:00 |
| ---jgay is now known as Guest34040 | Oct 01 00:03 | |
| <--Guest34040 has quit (Killed (kiwi.freenode.net (Nickname regained by services))) | Oct 01 00:03 | |
| -->jgay (18094ea4@fsf/emeritus/jgay) has joined #techrights | Oct 01 00:03 | |
| jgay | r_schestowitz what is up with your "corporations are out to get rms" type statements on your techrights blog or that bit about FSF staffer defacing stallman.org and it now being moved to non-FSF architecture (it has always been on non-FSF architecture as far as I know). | Oct 01 00:07 |
| jgay | The overall theme makes it seem like long time FSF and GNU supporters aren't the ones that actually pushed hardest for RMS's ouster ... or that it was some sort of manipulation from outside that ... somehow shifted the position of some of the most stubborn free software activists in the world? | Oct 01 00:08 |
| jgay | Anyhow. I'm happy to share my own opinion. But, what I don't understand is the sort of 'conspiracy theory' hinting that you are doing which just seems so detached from reality | Oct 01 00:13 |
| <--jgay has quit (Remote host closed the connection) | Oct 01 00:26 | |
| psydroid | scientes, did they have hardware capable of running 32-bit binaries before? It looks like 32-bit support is going away in general, also on Android | Oct 01 00:39 |
| -viera/#techrights-Tux Machines: The Xeon vs. EPYC Performance With Intel's oneAPI Embree & OSPray Render Projects http://www.tuxmachines.org/node/128706 [https://pleroma.site/objects/eb9d974f-de92-4ae9-8ed4-5e2cfcc5cb41] | Oct 01 01:08 | |
| -viera/#techrights-Tux Machines: #Android Leftovers http://www.tuxmachines.org/node/128707 [https://pleroma.site/objects/f9a6a6a3-5bc5-45c7-89da-a0a5409e3810] | Oct 01 01:09 | |
| -->a1batross (f99f96a489@gateway/shell/jabberfr/x-jfsyyyspnpalewto) has joined #techrights | Oct 01 01:11 | |
| -viera/#techrights-Tux Machines: Raspberry Pi OS Raspbian Improves Raspberry Pi 4 Support, Adds Many Improvements http://www.tuxmachines.org/node/128708 [https://pleroma.site/objects/84a2b2a0-87cc-4e90-980a-f04719640541] | Oct 01 01:11 | |
| -viera/#techrights-Tux Machines: Manjaro Linux makes two bold moves http://www.tuxmachines.org/node/128709 [https://pleroma.site/objects/f4b29978-463b-4e4f-bdc4-e8bfd1e52206] | Oct 01 01:13 | |
| -viera/#techrights-Tux Machines: Linux 5.4-rc1 http://www.tuxmachines.org/node/128710 [https://pleroma.site/objects/4d6207bf-1b08-45f1-b404-d3575470ff7f] | Oct 01 01:16 | |
| -viera/#techrights-Tux Machines: #Android Leftovers http://www.tuxmachines.org/node/128711 [https://pleroma.site/objects/fc587ce8-471d-4a11-a109-8d5f42c3f811] | Oct 01 01:17 | |
| scientes | XRevan86, check out what I just saw on the street ;) https://imgur.com/a/W5v2uOu | Oct 01 01:20 |
| -TechrightsBot-tr/#techrights-Imgur: The magic of the Internet | Oct 01 01:20 | |
| *XRevan86 sees a literal nothing. | Oct 01 01:25 | |
| <--MrGreenFriend has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) | Oct 01 01:27 | |
| -viera/#techrights-Tux Machines: Taking elements from XCOM and FTL, Galaxy Squad arrives on GOG with Linux support http://www.tuxmachines.org/node/128712 [https://pleroma.site/objects/dbf102ee-c357-4c8b-bd29-bf65ce4fb33f] | Oct 01 01:31 | |
| XRevan86 | scientes: Is the link right? | Oct 01 01:31 |
| scientes | oh wtf | Oct 01 01:31 |
| scientes | it is literally nothing | Oct 01 01:31 |
| scientes | i guess i have to wait for it to upload before closing it :) | Oct 01 01:32 |
| scientes | https://imgur.com/a/DmgL5i9 | Oct 01 01:32 |
| -TechrightsBot-tr/#techrights-Imgur: The magic of the Internet | Oct 01 01:32 | |
| r_schestowitz | scientes: they make it look like icecream | Oct 01 01:34 |
| scientes | uggh, memory leak in gnome-shell | Oct 01 01:35 |
| scientes | had to restart | Oct 01 01:35 |
| XRevan86 | scientes: What is that? Chocolate shawarma with an orange top? | Oct 01 01:35 |
| scientes | not a good process to have a memory leak in | Oct 01 01:35 |
| scientes | yeah shawarma | Oct 01 01:35 |
| scientes | i don't know what the top is | Oct 01 01:35 |
| r_schestowitz | so jgay was here... | Oct 01 01:35 |
| r_schestowitz | I think he's one of the more eager to kick RMS out people | Oct 01 01:36 |
| scientes | gnome-shell can't be restarted with a wayland backend | Oct 01 01:36 |
| r_schestowitz | from what I can tell only Oliva vouched for him | Oct 01 01:36 |
| scientes | but it was using like 500MB of memory | Oct 01 01:36 |
| r_schestowitz | Kat Walsh and Ben Mako Hill keep quiet | Oct 01 01:36 |
| MinceR | is he an SJW? | Oct 01 01:36 |
| r_schestowitz | no | Oct 01 01:36 |
| XRevan86 | > it has always been on non-FSF architecture as far as I know | Oct 01 01:37 |
| r_schestowitz | he did not in his words even dispute what was said | Oct 01 01:37 |
| r_schestowitz | seems very possible an authorised user whom RMS trusted changed his site | Oct 01 01:38 |
| r_schestowitz | and to say corporations had no role in the media attack on RMS is just insane | Oct 01 01:38 |
| r_schestowitz | FSF was happy to roll over, let the knees buckle, they're waited for such an opportunity since earlier this year | Oct 01 01:38 |
| XRevan86 | kaniini said that it was, so as far as "as far as I know" go, someone misinformed. | Oct 01 01:38 |
| r_schestowitz | anyway... | Oct 01 01:38 |
| r_schestowitz | Matt Lee told me the same | Oct 01 01:39 |
| XRevan86 | What supports that claim is Debian Wheezy again. Would FSF really let a server in their care get that out of date? | Oct 01 01:40 |
| r_schestowitz | they don't have a stellar record on security, either | Oct 01 01:42 |
| r_schestowitz | see the DBD incident | Oct 01 01:42 |
| r_schestowitz | bad admin | Oct 01 01:42 |
| XRevan86 | That's not just security, that's plain negligence. | Oct 01 01:42 |
| XRevan86 | Not that security is great. When one allows the server to rot like this, one can at least disable server tokens to hide the exact HTTP server version. | Oct 01 01:44 |
| XRevan86 | The only reason I know it's Debian Wheezy is because Apache httpd on stallman.org told me so. | Oct 01 01:45 |
| r_schestowitz | jgay seems to think corporate influence is "conspiracy theory | Oct 01 01:47 |
| r_schestowitz | So my source in Boston is right about him being very corporate-friendly... | Oct 01 01:47 |
| XRevan86 | But of course all speculation exists because RMS hasn't explained what the heck happened | Oct 01 01:48 |
| MinceR | well, wheezy is the last stable release of debian :> | Oct 01 01:49 |
| XRevan86 | Who defaced the site? Was it defaced twice or not? Is the post related to the defacement? | Oct 01 01:50 |
| scientes | lmao , AWS and amazon are totally differnt accou nts | Oct 01 01:51 |
| scientes | i really odn't have another password | Oct 01 01:51 |
| XRevan86 | For all I know, the post could've been draughted by RMS himself. | Oct 01 01:52 |
| scientes | fuck this shit | Oct 01 01:52 |
| scientes | i already have my credit card tied to my amazon account | Oct 01 01:53 |
| XRevan86 | Maybe he wrote it and then changed his mind, but it still has found its way to the page. | Oct 01 01:53 |
| scientes | amazon aws can go fuk themselves, i don't care if they have arm | Oct 01 01:53 |
| XRevan86 | That would explain the second time it appeared without other signs of the deface. | Oct 01 01:54 |
| XRevan86 | MinceR: If so, what does that change? | Oct 01 01:57 |
| MinceR | nothing | Oct 01 01:57 |
| -viera/#techrights-Tux Machines: Audiocasts/Shows: Linux in the Ham Shack, Linux Headlines and More http://www.tuxmachines.org/node/128713 [https://pleroma.site/objects/7f46cc32-e388-4ff7-8271-eb018ebc372c] | Oct 01 01:57 | |
| XRevan86 | In summary, things just don't add up either as an inside job, or as a hack, or as RMS doing it all himself. | Oct 01 02:00 |
| r_schestowitz | he would not link to that video | Oct 01 02:01 |
| r_schestowitz | so you can rule that out | Oct 01 02:01 |
| r_schestowitz | I'm pretty sure he let other people in | Oct 01 02:01 |
| r_schestowitz | like the FSF does interns | Oct 01 02:01 |
| r_schestowitz | maybe he's burned that access point by now | Oct 01 02:01 |
| r_schestowitz | maybe he was not sure at first, maybe he still doesn't know | Oct 01 02:02 |
| r_schestowitz | techrights has two authorised users with root | Oct 01 02:02 |
| r_schestowitz | one in Scandinavia | Oct 01 02:02 |
| XRevan86 | Definitely not root, too little was done for someone with root. | Oct 01 02:03 |
| XRevan86 | He could've stated what he knows even if its incomplete. | Oct 01 02:04 |
| oiaohm | The fun of setting selinux particular ways is that you can make root user useless. | Oct 01 02:05 |
| MinceR | or you could just not let other people have root | Oct 01 02:10 |
| -viera/#techrights-Tux Machines: Debian Leftovers http://www.tuxmachines.org/node/128714 [https://pleroma.site/objects/92c7ce8c-87cf-4cf1-a976-2ee54c856cba] | Oct 01 02:22 | |
| -viera/#techrights-Tux Machines: today's howtos http://www.tuxmachines.org/node/128715 [https://pleroma.site/objects/71ebb43c-421f-408e-954e-3b625f69aabb] | Oct 01 02:23 | |
| -viera/#techrights-Tux Machines: Screenshots/Screencasts: Ubuntu MATE, Kubuntu and CentOS http://www.tuxmachines.org/node/128716 [https://pleroma.site/objects/c4d14e7a-ebbc-4cc3-8b6c-25740544f61f] | Oct 01 02:25 | |
| -viera/#techrights-Tux Machines: 5 Best Security Tools to Have on Your Linux PC http://www.tuxmachines.org/node/128717 [https://pleroma.site/objects/72774c06-4c76-4cbb-b7ee-320c97a76329] | Oct 01 02:42 | |
| -viera/#techrights-Tux Machines: Latte bug fix release v0.9.3 http://www.tuxmachines.org/node/128718 [https://pleroma.site/objects/37740455-34a7-4dd7-8351-2d3b231ed768] | Oct 01 02:44 | |
| -viera/#techrights-Tux Machines: OpenMandriva Can Now Clang Its Linux Kernel Build For This LLVM Focused Distribution http://www.tuxmachines.org/node/128719 [https://pleroma.site/objects/f43450f4-a843-411f-a9fb-cbad5283b715] | Oct 01 02:47 | |
| -viera/#techrights-Tux Machines: #openSUSE News: Election Committee Set to Open Vote on Project Name http://www.tuxmachines.org/node/128720 [https://pleroma.site/objects/261682cc-5d1c-4a15-8669-857a7a7618cc] | Oct 01 02:53 | |
| scientes | ok, it ended up being easier to run my 32-bit arm binaries on my phone | Oct 01 03:17 |
| scientes | ahh damn | Oct 01 03:20 |
| scientes | i need my little mips router i had | Oct 01 03:20 |
| kaniini | stallman.org was definitely on FSF infrastructure | Oct 01 03:25 |
| r_schestowitz | thanka, kaniini | Oct 01 03:28 |
| r_schestowitz | *thanks | Oct 01 03:28 |
| r_schestowitz | kaniini: jgay and mattl say no | Oct 01 03:28 |
| r_schestowitz | or that it had been >not< on their turf for some time | Oct 01 03:29 |
| r_schestowitz | (I did not check myself the history of it) | Oct 01 03:29 |
| r_schestowitz | yet neither directly refused your claim about an authorised person with access doing the vandalism, at least not yet | Oct 01 03:29 |
| r_schestowitz | RMS told me it was posted "in error" | Oct 01 03:30 |
| r_schestowitz | then it was posted again | Oct 01 03:30 |
| r_schestowitz | "in error" | Oct 01 03:30 |
| r_schestowitz | and again removed | Oct 01 03:30 |
| kaniini | seems like they don't know which authorised person is doing it then | Oct 01 03:30 |
| r_schestowitz | that's what I thoght too | Oct 01 03:30 |
| r_schestowitz | the changes are so minor | Oct 01 03:31 |
| r_schestowitz | if someone went through the trouble of cracking stallman it would be some black background page with "H4X0r4d.. and a nasty photo of some kind | Oct 01 03:32 |
| r_schestowitz | kaniini: maybe you can ask around, but I'm starting to worry we might >NEVER< find out what exactly happened there and who the culprit was | Oct 01 03:35 |
| -viera/#techrights-Tux Machines: Fedora IoT Edition Test Day and Red Hat News http://www.tuxmachines.org/node/128721 [https://pleroma.site/objects/f8f0bad1-fe58-49ea-9234-7100581ebf2a] | Oct 01 03:38 | |
| -viera/#techrights-Tux Machines: Mozilla Leftovers http://www.tuxmachines.org/node/128722 [https://pleroma.site/objects/7b892202-d107-43c8-8694-d4c1efef25b0] | Oct 01 03:40 | |
| -->jgay (18094ea4@fsf/emeritus/jgay) has joined #techrights | Oct 01 03:41 | |
| r_schestowitz | hi | Oct 01 03:42 |
| r_schestowitz | jgay: | Oct 01 03:43 |
| r_schestowitz | you responded to me hours ago; but two points: | Oct 01 03:43 |
| r_schestowitz | 1) you did not dispute what I had said | Oct 01 03:43 |
| r_schestowitz | 2) you reaffirmed my view you're sort of pro-corporate control | Oct 01 03:43 |
| r_schestowitz | I'm not against corporations of course, per se, I even work for one | Oct 01 03:43 |
| jgay | r_schestowitz I didn't dispute what you said, i simply wanted to understand where you were getting your opinions as they did not seem to be rooted in evidence but suspicion | Oct 01 03:43 |
| r_schestowitz | we just need to be very clear about what has been happening lately | Oct 01 03:43 |
| r_schestowitz | e.g. corporate media attacks on RMS and his character by distortion | Oct 01 03:44 |
| r_schestowitz | also the github takeover and lies like "Microsoft loves Linux,", which corporate media repeats a lot (it's PR) | Oct 01 03:44 |
| <--amarsh04 has quit (Remote host closed the connection) | Oct 01 03:44 | |
| r_schestowitz | jgay: which views expressed by me >specifically< gave that impression? Maybe something I just quoted? | Oct 01 03:45 |
| kaniini | jgay: it is circumstantial, but you guys are being quite mum about things. | Oct 01 03:45 |
| jgay | r_schestowitz sure, let me quote | Oct 01 03:45 |
| r_schestowitz | some people tried to somehow blame Salesfroce, but offered nothing convincing | Oct 01 03:45 |
| r_schestowitz | jgay: you need to be upfront, this breeds suspicion | Oct 01 03:45 |
| kaniini | jgay: i think you guys whould be more transparent and just admit that you bounced RMS out of the FSF because he was doing a bad job and this perceived defense of epstein was the final straw | Oct 01 03:46 |
| r_schestowitz | your statement re RMS resignation was far too short, I rely on hearsay from within | Oct 01 03:46 |
| r_schestowitz | I think Oliva dissented in the Board, it seems like Oliva was that person | Oct 01 03:46 |
| kaniini | i mean, it's painfully obvious that's what happened | Oct 01 03:46 |
| r_schestowitz | the epstein connection was bill gates | Oct 01 03:46 |
| kaniini | this isn't even about the concern trolls | Oct 01 03:47 |
| r_schestowitz | the RMS media storm did help deflect from it, that's not a mere theory | Oct 01 03:47 |
| kaniini | they just provided an excuse | Oct 01 03:47 |
| r_schestowitz | and you buckled | Oct 01 03:47 |
| r_schestowitz | after bkuhn and gnome foundation pressure you, along with others | Oct 01 03:47 |
| r_schestowitz | gnome people tried this in 2009, that was their first run with "emacs virgins" etc. | Oct 01 03:48 |
| jgay | "Something is going on and rumours suggest that large corporations play a role." | Oct 01 03:48 |
| r_schestowitz | Yes, IBM seemed gleeful | Oct 01 03:48 |
| kaniini | i don't think large corporations play a role, i think people were just tired of having to go play defense for RMS when FSF needs new blood anyway | Oct 01 03:48 |
| r_schestowitz | Their press release was totally spurious | Oct 01 03:48 |
| kaniini | hmm | Oct 01 03:48 |
| kaniini | not really | Oct 01 03:48 |
| r_schestowitz | corporate media | Oct 01 03:48 |
| kaniini | there was an internal discussion about it inside redhat | Oct 01 03:48 |
| kaniini | before they made that post | Oct 01 03:49 |
| r_schestowitz | I was once told about Torvalds that IBM-owned media did the shaming | Oct 01 03:49 |
| jgay | So here is what I think the single biggest factor was. The following statement "When considered with other reprehensible comments he has published over the years, these incidents form a pattern of behavior that is incompatible with the goals of the free software movement. We call for Stallman to step down from positions of leadership in our | Oct 01 03:49 |
| jgay | movement. | Oct 01 03:49 |
| r_schestowitz | that IBM wanted him out, but In wasn't quite convinced | Oct 01 03:49 |
| jgay | published here: https://sfconservancy.org/news/2019/sep/16/rms-does-not-speak-for-us/ | Oct 01 03:49 |
| -TechrightsBot-tr/#techrights-sfconservancy.org | Richard Stallman Does Not and Cannot Speak for the Free Software Movement - Software Freedom Conservancy | Oct 01 03:49 | |
| r_schestowitz | that's one Board member | Oct 01 03:50 |
| jgay | Karen, Bradley, Brett Smith, Deb Nicholson. | Oct 01 03:50 |
| r_schestowitz | I personally never got along too well with him tbh | Oct 01 03:50 |
| r_schestowitz | I was told bkuhn had authored it | Oct 01 03:50 |
| jgay | Are at the conservancy. Two former RMS assists.Three former employees and ED and one board member. | Oct 01 03:50 |
| kaniini | bkuhn authored it, but the rest of the board endorsed it tbh | Oct 01 03:50 |
| kaniini | but either way, i think this is just RMS fatigue | Oct 01 03:51 |
| r_schestowitz | so SFC now calls the shots at FSF as well? And by extension GNU? | Oct 01 03:51 |
| kaniini | of course not | Oct 01 03:51 |
| jgay | I don't think SFC calls the shots. I think that their statement is likely the one that struck the deepst | Oct 01 03:51 |
| r_schestowitz | SFC are enforcers | Oct 01 03:51 |
| jgay | deepest | Oct 01 03:51 |
| kaniini | take a step back and look at it like this | Oct 01 03:52 |
| r_schestowitz | and bkuhn told us off when we tried to hold Samsung accountable for gpl violations by merely pointing that out publicly | Oct 01 03:52 |
| kaniini | FSF had been failing lacklusterly in it's mission for some time (almost all advancement of free software in the trenches is done outside of FSF and GNU anymore) | Oct 01 03:52 |
| r_schestowitz | (as if we 'stole' their business) | Oct 01 03:52 |
| kaniini | RMS kept pissing people off with his social comments | Oct 01 03:52 |
| r_schestowitz | removing RMS would not fix FSF, quite the contrary | Oct 01 03:53 |
| kaniini | eventually people are going to be tired of defending it | Oct 01 03:53 |
| r_schestowitz | only months ago we pointed out how dependent FSF was on RMS and his image | Oct 01 03:53 |
| kaniini | maybe so, maybe no | Oct 01 03:53 |
| -->amarsh04 (~amarsh04@118.211.39.107) has joined #techrights | Oct 01 03:53 | |
| kaniini | i can list many people who i think could revigorize FSF and move it in a new direction | Oct 01 03:53 |
| r_schestowitz | kaniini: things I say piss some people off too, sometimes, the only alternative is to rarely express an opinion at all | Oct 01 03:54 |
| r_schestowitz | Greg K-H too would piss people off had he run a Political Notes blog | Oct 01 03:54 |
| jgay | Not just social comments. I mean look, I gave my all when i worked at the FSF. But it wasn't but a couple years into my working with RMS that I would: a) try to not introduce him to women at FSF events and functoins, and b) when i did introduce him I would make sure that the women understood he was probably going to ignore whatever they said and | Oct 01 03:54 |
| jgay | then ask them out on a date | Oct 01 03:54 |
| kaniini | that too | Oct 01 03:54 |
| jgay | And despite me warning them, they would still have me introduce them or RMS would walk over. And sure enough, he would often even ask me to go away in this super awkward way so he could ask the woman if she would like to go back to his room to listen to records | Oct 01 03:55 |
| r_schestowitz | he can be socially awkward, but many geeks are | Oct 01 03:55 |
| kaniini | my point is, the leader was increasingly ineffective (because many reasons) and a social liability | Oct 01 03:55 |
| kaniini | r_schestowitz: sure, but many geeks would also stop undermining key initiatives simply because they disagree with them | Oct 01 03:55 |
| kaniini | you have to have a mix of wins and loss | Oct 01 03:56 |
| kaniini | the past few years of FSF has been more loss and loss | Oct 01 03:56 |
| jgay | r_schestowitz it isn't awkwardness. It is that it is inappropriate to do that as president of an org. he should have simply chosen to own his innapropriateness and to step down from president and to be supported as a gnu speaker | Oct 01 03:56 |
| r_schestowitz | jgay: I want to help FSF and RMS, they're like the same more or less to most people | Oct 01 03:56 |
| kaniini | morale at FSF has been low for a very long time lol | Oct 01 03:56 |
| r_schestowitz | I just think FSF scored an own goal to appease so-called 'journalists' who had lied | Oct 01 03:56 |
| kaniini | but i think FSF people should be more honest and say it wasn't just because of this epstein incident | Oct 01 03:57 |
| r_schestowitz | their lies were then leveraged by those long looking to dethrone RMS | Oct 01 03:57 |
| jgay | And then at libre planet, that whole "the rules don't apply to me" thing was horrible | Oct 01 03:57 |
| kaniini | basically for the past few years, everyone i know at FSF has basically low key been like | Oct 01 03:57 |
| kaniini | "it would be easier to do my job if RMS wasn't in the picture anymore" | Oct 01 03:57 |
| r_schestowitz | kaniini: more of a Minsky incident, not Epstein | Oct 01 03:57 |
| kaniini | yes, whatever | Oct 01 03:57 |
| r_schestowitz | the Epstein connection is BIll Gates' via MIT | Oct 01 03:57 |
| kaniini | my point is | Oct 01 03:57 |
| kaniini | the incident was the last straw | Oct 01 03:58 |
| r_schestowitz | RMS had called Epstein "serial rapist" | Oct 01 03:58 |
| jgay | r_schestowitz this article covered the libre planet incident pretty well: http://www.linux-magazine.com/Online/Blogs/Off-the-Beat-Bruce-Byfield-s-Blog/New-Guard-and-Old-Guard-clash-at-Free-Software-Foundation | Oct 01 03:58 |
| -TechrightsBot-tr/#techrights-www.linux-magazine.com | New Guard and Old Guard clash at Free Software... » Linux Magazine | Oct 01 03:58 | |
| r_schestowitz | jgay: the libreplanet aaspct was covered by us back in April and twice later | Oct 01 03:58 |
| r_schestowitz | based on people in the know | Oct 01 03:59 |
| kaniini | well i think RMS should have to follow the same rules everyone else follows at an event | Oct 01 03:59 |
| kaniini | ;) | Oct 01 03:59 |
| kaniini | but really, this all begins with Libreboot | Oct 01 03:59 |
| r_schestowitz | jgay: he also pushed that "emac virgins" phony scandal | Oct 01 03:59 |
| r_schestowitz | last week in FossForce he went on another anti-RMS rant | Oct 01 04:00 |
| kaniini | the shitshow that was the Libreboot incident | Oct 01 04:00 |
| kaniini | is what killed morale at FSF imo | Oct 01 04:00 |
| jgay | r_schestowitz the other aspect to all of this is that RMS has a level of arrogance that is just beyond the pale. He has teams of people, a personal assistant, and others all of whom will help him with being smart about how he communicates with the public. how and whether to weigh in on certain kinds of topics. Etc. It takes a pretty extreme | Oct 01 04:00 |
| jgay | situation for him to reach out to that network before just going ahead and making a statement | Oct 01 04:00 |
| r_schestowitz | kaniini: even Leah ow defends RMS in this latest row | Oct 01 04:00 |
| r_schestowitz | *Row | Oct 01 04:00 |
| r_schestowitz | *Row and Rowe | Oct 01 04:00 |
| jgay | then when he fucks up, instead of asking for those professionals around him who are good at cleaning up to help, he stands his ground and defends semantics | Oct 01 04:00 |
| r_schestowitz | jgay: he did start this movement | Oct 01 04:01 |
| r_schestowitz | sometimes he asks me questions/advice also | Oct 01 04:01 |
| kaniini | defending minsky was honorable, but yes | Oct 01 04:01 |
| r_schestowitz | I don't think it's too irrational | Oct 01 04:01 |
| kaniini | he should have asked for help with composing his defense | Oct 01 04:01 |
| kaniini | i would have started with the point that there's evidence that proves minsky did not accept the offer | Oct 01 04:02 |
| r_schestowitz | the media moved on yesterday | Oct 01 04:02 |
| r_schestowitz | https://www.zdnet.com/article/richard-stallman-to-microsoft-publicly-retract-open-source-is-a-cancer-claim/ | Oct 01 04:02 |
| -TechrightsBot-tr/#techrights-Richard Stallman to Microsoft: Publicly retract 'open source is a cancer' claim | ZDNet | Oct 01 04:02 | |
| r_schestowitz | https://winbuzzer.com/2019/09/30/microsoft-loves-linux-needs-more-work-argues-open-source-leader-xcxwbn/ | Oct 01 04:02 |
| -TechrightsBot-tr/#techrights-Microsoft Loves Linux Needs More Work Argues Open Source Leader - WinBuzzer | Oct 01 04:02 | |
| kaniini | yes, but this isn't about the media | Oct 01 04:02 |
| r_schestowitz | He also published that article explaining his visit to Microsoft. I spoke to him about needing to clarify motivations and how it came about | Oct 01 04:02 |
| r_schestowitz | it is | Oct 01 04:03 |
| r_schestowitz | kaniini: to some degree | Oct 01 04:03 |
| kaniini | it is about his allies being fatigued | Oct 01 04:03 |
| r_schestowitz | it cannot just be ignored, it's used as agent of public opinion | Oct 01 04:03 |
| kaniini | sure, the media contributes to the fatigue | Oct 01 04:03 |
| r_schestowitz | yup | Oct 01 04:03 |
| kaniini | but i know many people who have had to get in front of RMS and play referee | Oct 01 04:03 |
| kaniini | and i assure you, that contributes to the fatigue more | Oct 01 04:04 |
| r_schestowitz | when it all began, sept. 16th, I told him it was distracting from Gates | Oct 01 04:04 |
| r_schestowitz | he partly agreed | Oct 01 04:04 |
| kaniini | was the FSF board decision to fire RMS correct? i don't know | Oct 01 04:04 |
| kaniini | either way, we will find out | Oct 01 04:04 |
| r_schestowitz | it seems like a flippant reaction | Oct 01 04:04 |
| r_schestowitz | the fallout was big | Oct 01 04:04 |
| kaniini | i don't think so | Oct 01 04:04 |
| kaniini | as i have pointed out, morale has been low for a long time | Oct 01 04:05 |
| r_schestowitz | if he had resigned gracefully out of will (retirement), fine | Oct 01 04:05 |
| r_schestowitz | but this was in-transparent and left him disgraced | Oct 01 04:05 |
| r_schestowitz | kaniini: but what now? | Oct 01 04:05 |
| r_schestowitz | is morale better now? | Oct 01 04:05 |
| kaniini | it's too soon to tell | Oct 01 04:06 |
| r_schestowitz | they need to make peace with RMS somehow, right now it looks like a bad rift | Oct 01 04:06 |
| jgay | So look. I personaly have a lot to be thankful for from RMS. He was a great mentor to me. I learned so much from him that I can't even begin to even understand it all myself. The world has a lot to be grateful for. But, he tried to have his cake and eat it to. He wanted to be able to act independently and do as he wanted and also retain being the | Oct 01 04:06 |
| jgay | traveling spokesperson for the FSF (sometimes 180+ speaking engagements a year). But then he didn't want to work with a staff or a community in fundamentally important ways. | Oct 01 04:06 |
| r_schestowitz | and it's not helped by those edits to stallman.org | Oct 01 04:06 |
| kaniini | if FSF capitalizes on the opportunity and refreshes the FSF board with current generation of FOSS leaders and resolve this RMS situation | Oct 01 04:06 |
| kaniini | then yes | Oct 01 04:06 |
| kaniini | i think FSF could rise from the ashes | Oct 01 04:07 |
| kaniini | if not, then FSF will continue on it's path of irrelevancy | Oct 01 04:07 |
| r_schestowitz | jgay: at least make some statement about the RMS situation | Oct 01 04:07 |
| r_schestowitz | make it look less toxic | Oct 01 04:07 |
| kaniini | and as jgay points out, when you are the spokesman for an organization, you need to clear things with your people | Oct 01 04:07 |
| r_schestowitz | make it look like RMS trusts the FSF in its current form -- I heard that he wants that | Oct 01 04:08 |
| r_schestowitz | then we can move on | Oct 01 04:08 |
| kaniini | i agree there, there should have been a negotiated exit | Oct 01 04:08 |
| kaniini | instead of just firing him and being like "you can either resign or we will publicly fire you" | Oct 01 04:08 |
| jgay | r_schestowitz the RMS situation with the FSF? The situation was that in early 2000s the staff felt that the best way to protect themselves from RMS was to join the UAW and unionize the FSF so that there could be some checks and balance against RMS and his small self-selected do more or less whatever he said board of directors | Oct 01 04:09 |
| r_schestowitz | I get private messages suggesting there's a split of RMS 'loyalists' and the 'others' | Oct 01 04:09 |
| r_schestowitz | and they want a bridge, it needs mending | Oct 01 04:09 |
| kaniini | jgay: :D | Oct 01 04:09 |
| r_schestowitz | FSF can be ok without RMS | Oct 01 04:09 |
| r_schestowitz | but make a better public record, to give us confidence there's mutual respect both ways | Oct 01 04:10 |
| kaniini | yeah there's a split, but it's like 20% loyalists vs 80% everyone else | Oct 01 04:10 |
| jgay | The FSF needs to do some serious work on improving itself. Understanding the decisions it made in the past. And deciding if they should maybe make some different choices going forward. | Oct 01 04:10 |
| jgay | I made some thoughtful suggestions to them shortly after RMS resigned | Oct 01 04:10 |
| r_schestowitz | kaniini: 80% of general techies or free s/w devs? | Oct 01 04:10 |
| kaniini | i'm talking about inside FSF | Oct 01 04:10 |
| kaniini | if it is down to free s/w devs as a whole, i would say 90% of us are just out there doing our own thing anymore | Oct 01 04:11 |
| r_schestowitz | ah, ok | Oct 01 04:11 |
| jgay | here is my twitter thread: https://twitter.com/joshuagay/status/1174363744786362369 | Oct 01 04:11 |
| -TechrightsBot-tr/#techrights-@joshuagay: Here are some ideas to consider as the @fsf board and @johns_FSF plot a course for the future. | Oct 01 04:11 | |
| r_schestowitz | cheers | Oct 01 04:11 |
| r_schestowitz | the whole conde of conduct thing would put some people off | Oct 01 04:12 |
| kaniini | and again mattl has plenty of reason to be unhappy with RMS anyway | Oct 01 04:12 |
| r_schestowitz | unless renamed, like GNU/FSF did | Oct 01 04:12 |
| kaniini | r_schestowitz: if somebody is so fragile that the words "code of conduct" trigger them, they don't need to be involved anyway | Oct 01 04:12 |
| jgay | When the FSF decided to launch an associate membership program under Bradley Kuhn, the idea was that they could not launch a membership program, because that might imply that members could have a possible say in governance or some significant influence on the org. They didn't want this at the time. So they made sure to emphasize it was an | Oct 01 04:13 |
| jgay | "associate" membership only | Oct 01 04:13 |
| jgay | (I think wayback machine has some FAQ info about that clarification) | Oct 01 04:13 |
| kaniini | i agree with jgay's twitter thread btw | Oct 01 04:14 |
| r_schestowitz | I RTd it minutes ago | Oct 01 04:14 |
| kaniini | that is basically what i have suggested to FSF people that remain who have asked my opinion on "well, what now?" | Oct 01 04:14 |
| jgay | r_schestowitz I mean, maybe some ... but, I can assure you, that a strong code of conduct and code of ethics can go hand in hand with a successful org | Oct 01 04:14 |
| r_schestowitz | Did RMS run afoul of one? | Oct 01 04:14 |
| r_schestowitz | these things can severely restrict free speech sadly | Oct 01 04:15 |
| kaniini | no | Oct 01 04:15 |
| r_schestowitz | And I make many public statements in politics | Oct 01 04:15 |
| kaniini | a well-written code of conduct protects speech | Oct 01 04:15 |
| r_schestowitz | those can be cherry-picked by concern trolls | Oct 01 04:15 |
| kaniini | code of conduct ideally exists to stop things like | Oct 01 04:15 |
| jgay | IEEE has 420,000+ members worldwide and a code of ethics going back almost 100 years, which you can read about in the IEEE History Center wiki: https://ethw.org/IEEE_Ethics_History_Repository_(IEHR) | Oct 01 04:15 |
| -TechrightsBot-tr/#techrights-ethw.org | IEEE Ethics History Repository (IEHR) - Engineering and Technology History Wiki | Oct 01 04:15 | |
| kaniini | "hi $woman, i want to go out with you, if you don't agree i am going to harm myself" | Oct 01 04:15 |
| r_schestowitz | kaniini: see what Sharp did to Tso | Oct 01 04:15 |
| r_schestowitz | for merely expressing a view on rape stats ages ago | Oct 01 04:16 |
| r_schestowitz | They've weaponised it to prop up their devs of commercial interests | Oct 01 04:16 |
| kaniini | sure | Oct 01 04:16 |
| kaniini | but | Oct 01 04:16 |
| jgay | IEEE also has a 24/7 support line you can call if you feel that another member has violated the code of ethics, conduct, or has retaliated against you for whistleblowing | Oct 01 04:16 |
| r_schestowitz | like Greg K-H | Oct 01 04:16 |
| kaniini | if CoC did not exist | Oct 01 04:16 |
| kaniini | they would yell anyway | Oct 01 04:16 |
| jgay | it is run by an independent agency and communicates with the ethics board | Oct 01 04:16 |
| r_schestowitz | I don't trust IEEE | Oct 01 04:16 |
| r_schestowitz | I noticed you use their domain for Email | Oct 01 04:17 |
| kaniini | i think IEEE has some problems too | Oct 01 04:17 |
| r_schestowitz | They're very pro swpats and proprietary software, close to Microsoft also, I wrote a lot about it | Oct 01 04:17 |
| jgay | The best page with code of ethics, code of conduct, helpline, etc. all linked to is this one: https://www.ieee.org/about/compliance.html | Oct 01 04:17 |
| -TechrightsBot-tr/#techrights-www.ieee.org | IEEE - Organizational Ethics | Oct 01 04:17 | |
| oiaohm | Really things are kind of different since the cases that have happened with catholic church and Harvey Weinstein cases. | Oct 01 04:17 |
| kaniini | for example, i will not join IEEE because of their software patent stance and the fact that they do not allow people to use common law aliases on their membership | Oct 01 04:17 |
| jgay | r_schestowitz I am an employee of the IEEE standards association | Oct 01 04:18 |
| oiaohm | Particular with people in management positions being held to account for not dealing with sexual issues correctly. | Oct 01 04:18 |
| kaniini | i could afford to change my name | Oct 01 04:18 |
| oiaohm | RMS has kind of been caught in that. | Oct 01 04:18 |
| kaniini | but several people i know do not | Oct 01 04:18 |
| r_schestowitz | we need an alternative to IEEE | Oct 01 04:18 |
| r_schestowitz | arguably same for the patent offices and ISO | Oct 01 04:18 |
| kaniini | oiaohm: precisely. that combines with the already existent fatigue | Oct 01 04:18 |
| jgay | The IEEE hired me as their first hire to help them learn about and implement and support open source | Oct 01 04:18 |
| r_schestowitz | because they're too indebted to FS-hostile stakeholders | Oct 01 04:18 |
| kaniini | oiaohm: and people were like "fuck it, i can't defend him anymore" | Oct 01 04:18 |
| kaniini | anyway | Oct 01 04:19 |
| r_schestowitz | jgay: they probably said "open source" | Oct 01 04:19 |
| r_schestowitz | for them your membership is an openwashing marketing angle | Oct 01 04:19 |
| oiaohm | kaniini: please note the laws that came out in the catholic church and Harvey Weinstein cases are 300+ years old that have been sitting on the books not enforced. | Oct 01 04:19 |
| r_schestowitz | "look, we also support open source... everyone is at the table" | Oct 01 04:19 |
| oiaohm | Then everyone gone o crap on those laws that they are in fact enforceable as well. | Oct 01 04:20 |
| r_schestowitz | IEEE is all so-called 'FRAND' and other traps | Oct 01 04:20 |
| jgay | Progress is slow and steady. The main challenge with making a big change at IEEE is that it *is* a membership org. They have a constitution that dictates how the board of directors is selected, they have five major boards below the board of directors and hundreds of ocmmittees. All committees set policy and procedures, etc. | Oct 01 04:20 |
| oiaohm | There has been a lot of management people fired in the last few years. RMS is about the highest profile one. Due to companies wake-up these laws are serous. | Oct 01 04:20 |
| r_schestowitz | so you end up with stacked panels and tables, with Qualcomm, Ericsson and the likes and one person to let them say "oh! We also let "open source" speak..." | Oct 01 04:20 |
| jgay | r_schestowitz oh yeah. I mean going from a FRAND licensed standards project to an Apache 2.0 licensed standards project is totally "open washing" | Oct 01 04:21 |
| oiaohm | jgay: FRAND in fact breaches the Apache 2.0 patent promise. | Oct 01 04:21 |
| oiaohm | jgay: you will see FRAND with MIT licensed stuff a lot. | Oct 01 04:21 |
| r_schestowitz | jgay: which standard was this? | Oct 01 04:21 |
| r_schestowitz | their crown jewels are all patent traps | Oct 01 04:21 |
| r_schestowitz | some are so proprietary and secretive you cannot even see the specs | Oct 01 04:22 |
| r_schestowitz | unless you pay for the inside track and sign some NDA | Oct 01 04:23 |
| jgay | oiaohm no it doesn't. The rule at IEEE SA is that you must be FRAND if you have a patent license policy. If a standard project chooses (and is approved to be) open source, then the open source components (which could be simply stuff created outside the standard itself up to the entire stnadards document itself) of the standard working group must | Oct 01 04:23 |
| jgay | offer a free royalty license to all. Because free grant is also a FRAND grant. | Oct 01 04:23 |
| r_schestowitz | This is the type of thing FSF should publicly battle against | Oct 01 04:23 |
| oiaohm | jgay: http://en.swpat.org/wiki/Patent_clauses_in_software_licences#Apache_License_2.0 Apache 2.0 the patents have to be free to use or you cannot use the Apache 2.0 source code. | Oct 01 04:23 |
| -TechrightsBot-tr/#techrights-Patent clauses in software licences - software patents wiki (en.swpat.org) | Oct 01 04:23 | |
| r_schestowitz | it's also a back doors ventor | Oct 01 04:23 |
| r_schestowitz | *vector | Oct 01 04:23 |
| oiaohm | jgay: the apache 2.0 license clearly states the terms that the patents have to be under. So not generic frand. | Oct 01 04:24 |
| *r_schestowitz thinks we need to work >around< the likes of IEEE | Oct 01 04:24 | |
| jgay | oiaohm apache 2.0 is compatible with a FRAND policy | Oct 01 04:24 |
| kaniini | so anyway | Oct 01 04:25 |
| r_schestowitz | try to get IEEE onboard Alice/Sec 101 | Oct 01 04:25 |
| kaniini | i wonder which disgruntled sysadmin keeps editing stallman.org | Oct 01 04:25 |
| kaniini | ;) | Oct 01 04:25 |
| r_schestowitz | and then no need for misnomers like FRAND | Oct 01 04:25 |
| oiaohm | jgay: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reasonable_and_non-discriminatory_licensing No there is a strict difference. FRAND allows changing a fee for patents if you choose to. Apache 2.0 does not allow charging a fee for the patents. | Oct 01 04:25 |
| -TechrightsBot-tr/#techrights-en.wikipedia.org | Reasonable and non-discriminatory licensing - Wikipedia | Oct 01 04:25 | |
| kaniini | jgay: i remember stallman.org being hosted at FSF as recent as a few years ago. when did stallman.org move to positive internet? | Oct 01 04:26 |
| jgay | r_schestowitz "which standard was this" ... well it is a slow process. The Standards Board just approved the first standards project. The IEEE 1076 (2019), the VHDL standard will be officially published in the coming months. It normatively references an open source repository containing some core library code and other things | Oct 01 04:26 |
| jgay | one neat thing about it is that the normative reference is "undated" or "unversioned" so the latest version released by the open source project is the normative version. It will allow them to release as they go. | Oct 01 04:27 |
| r_schestowitz | why does VHDL even have patents on it? | Oct 01 04:27 |
| r_schestowitz | (let's start there) | Oct 01 04:28 |
| jgay | Since the project has its roots back to the 1980s, it took a lot of work for us to get all the permissions needed to release the code under apache 2.0. I ended-up having to dig into things like BSD code base in from early the 1990s to show that the version they were using was an exact match to the upstream (at the time) and then show that because | Oct 01 04:29 |
| jgay | of this the BSD 4 clause could be changed to the 3 clause (because that is what the regents of berkeley said could be done at a later point in time), etc. | Oct 01 04:29 |
| jgay | r_schestowitz it doesn't | Oct 01 04:29 |
| oiaohm | jgay: free royalty license to all can also have restrictive term on usage that apache 2.0 licence forbids as well. FRAND gets used as method to mix in charged for stuff with true free stuff. | Oct 01 04:29 |
| -viera/#techrights-Tux Machines: Server Leftovers http://www.tuxmachines.org/node/128723 [https://pleroma.site/objects/3ad59cda-718f-45df-a462-3002ade08fe2] | Oct 01 04:29 | |
| jgay | there are very very few patent claims on IEEE standards. Any individual or entity contributing to an IEEE standard is required to file an LoA if they are aware of any patent claims. Every meeting of working groups is supposed to start with instructions about LoAs, etc etc. Despite that, there are very few LoAs filed | Oct 01 04:30 |
| r_schestowitz | so now there's common code companies can build upon | Oct 01 04:31 |
| r_schestowitz | without giving their changes back | Oct 01 04:31 |
| r_schestowitz | so the FS community needs to compete with their 'innovations' (extensions' | Oct 01 04:31 |
| r_schestowitz | and can 'donate' time to those companies improving the reference | Oct 01 04:31 |
| r_schestowitz | it's a big open core-y | Oct 01 04:31 |
| r_schestowitz | openwash | Oct 01 04:31 |
| r_schestowitz | (apparently that's the 'thing' now, getting geeks to solve bugs on a voluntary basis for so-called 'Big tech') | Oct 01 04:32 |
| jgay | oiaohm you are doing it backwards. The FRAND policy says that your license policy must be Fair, Reasonable, and Nondiscriminatory. A standards committee and the standards working group must agree to a FRAND license policy. We require that open source projects be apache 2.0 by default and bsd 3 clause as a secondary option (we argue that BSD clause | Oct 01 04:33 |
| jgay | is an explicit patent grant in it). The Apache 2.0 license is FRAND because it is fair, reasonable, and non-discriminatroy. Therefore if standards development project requires Apache 2.0 they are not violating our FRAND policy. | Oct 01 04:33 |
| jgay | r_schestowitz VHDL is not "big tech" | Oct 01 04:33 |
| r_schestowitz | I know | Oct 01 04:33 |
| jgay | r_schestowitz and there isn't much in the way of big tech in the other standards open source projects we are doing at the IEEE right now | Oct 01 04:33 |
| r_schestowitz | it's old and if patents existed, they'd probaly be expired by now | Oct 01 04:34 |
| r_schestowitz | But I'm referring to things like the GitHub outsourcing operation known as "Linux Foundation' | Oct 01 04:34 |
| r_schestowitz | BTW, FSF never expressed its views on LF | Oct 01 04:34 |
| r_schestowitz | I think RMS was very reluctant to, as well.. | Oct 01 04:34 |
| r_schestowitz | it's pretty clear in the past 12 months what LF had become, to the point it sent away Torvalds for a while | Oct 01 04:35 |
| r_schestowitz | Even RMS was too polite to comment on LF | Oct 01 04:35 |
| jgay | I mean, LF is a business association. If I donate to the LF, i can't write it off as a tax deduction because as a nonprofit, their first cusotmer is the the public. | Oct 01 04:35 |
| jgay | *isn't | Oct 01 04:35 |
| oiaohm | jgay: the reasonable part include the means to charge. I would like to see another term other than FRAND for those that have patent licensing without charge. It makes implementing stuff more messy than it need to where frand with patent licensing charge is mixed up with items without a patent licensing charge. | Oct 01 04:36 |
| r_schestowitz | it's like IEEE | Oct 01 04:36 |
| jgay | It is what it is in that sense. They serve their business association members first and comply with 501(c)6 nonprofit status. They aren't a public charity like IEEE which is 501(c)3 | Oct 01 04:36 |
| r_schestowitz | It's in effect a corporate front group, like a so-called PAC in US politics | Oct 01 04:36 |
| r_schestowitz | FSF needs to confront these things IMHO, not because they're corporate but because what they do is morally problematic | Oct 01 04:37 |
| r_schestowitz | LF even "sells tweets" now | Oct 01 04:37 |
| jgay | r_schestowitz the IEEE is a 501(c)3 and serves the public first and not its corporate members. And it's corporate members are capped. Our board hasn't raised coprorate member rates in a long time | Oct 01 04:37 |
| r_schestowitz | IEEE panels are mostly corporations | Oct 01 04:38 |
| r_schestowitz | those with stake in the outcome | Oct 01 04:38 |
| r_schestowitz | FS is rare and negligible in that respect, and with RHY becoming just IBM it'll get yet worse | Oct 01 04:38 |
| r_schestowitz | *RHT | Oct 01 04:38 |
| jgay | r_schestowitz I mean sure we have a lot of panels though. I think we average something like 5 or 6 major events per day, 365 days a year | Oct 01 04:39 |
| jgay | so it is easy to show there are a lot of corporate panels at conferences | Oct 01 04:39 |
| r_schestowitz | one way or another, IEEE gives them their way | Oct 01 04:39 |
| r_schestowitz | the assumption is, those companies "know what they're doing" | Oct 01 04:39 |
| r_schestowitz | "we just stamp it" | Oct 01 04:39 |
| jgay | r_schestowitz don't get me wrong. We dont' have a strong history of open source and we are long way from free software (i.e., free software is an ethical belief that rejects proprietary software, and we are far from having an organizational committment like that) | Oct 01 04:40 |
| r_schestowitz | you won't manage to 'take over' from the inside (IEEE) | Oct 01 04:41 |
| jgay | r_schestowitz not really. I mean, we have a pretty strong history of trying to make sure that industries do right for humanity. Like, an extremely strong one. We aren't a free software org but we do a huge amount of good in this world and put a lot of checks in place to try to prevent any one corporation or a group of corporation from exerting too | Oct 01 04:41 |
| jgay | much influence | Oct 01 04:41 |
| r_schestowitz | it takes up time and energy for baby steps | Oct 01 04:42 |
| r_schestowitz | they already have their phony 'open source' groups | Oct 01 04:42 |
| r_schestowitz | to pretend they participate in "open" | Oct 01 04:42 |
| r_schestowitz | days ago I discovered some new "open source" JS "foundation" appointing someone from Microsoft as head | Oct 01 04:43 |
| r_schestowitz | we need to tackle this openwashing, the hijacking of narratives | Oct 01 04:43 |
| r_schestowitz | they play dirty, we can't play passively | Oct 01 04:43 |
| jgay | r_schestowitz there isn't an inside really. To make significant change at the IEEE you need to get buyin and support from the members and because most members positions on a given high level board are capped in different ways, you need to have pretty widespread support to get somethign accomplished and getting it done usually gets dragged out | Oct 01 04:43 |
| jgay | across multiple terms of board presidents, etc. | Oct 01 04:43 |
| r_schestowitz | they always figure out ways | Oct 01 04:44 |
| r_schestowitz | like giving freebies to or through IEEE | Oct 01 04:44 |
| r_schestowitz | http://techrights.org/2011/03/02/ieee-likes-monopoly/ | Oct 01 04:44 |
| -TechrightsBot-tr/#techrights-techrights.org | IEEE is Still Against Scientists, Protects Monopolies Instead | Techrights | Oct 01 04:44 | |
| jgay | r_schestowitz I don't think you can really accuse IEEE of open washing. I mean, I'm *sure* you can find instances of it if you look. But, not some serious open washing strategy that you see coming from a high level | Oct 01 04:45 |
| r_schestowitz | http://techrights.org/2010/06/30/ieee-for-swpats-monopoly/ | Oct 01 04:45 |
| -TechrightsBot-tr/#techrights-techrights.org | IEEE Hates Software Freedom, Now Makes it More Official | Techrights | Oct 01 04:45 | |
| r_schestowitz | They even distribute Microsoft stuff for Microsoft | Oct 01 04:45 |
| r_schestowitz | 'free' things | Oct 01 04:45 |
| r_schestowitz | there's always a way to bribe anyone | Oct 01 04:45 |
| r_schestowitz | personal or institutional level | Oct 01 04:45 |
| r_schestowitz | directly or indirectly | Oct 01 04:45 |
| r_schestowitz | I write about it happening in Europe and EPO every day/week | Oct 01 04:46 |
| r_schestowitz | IEEE may be more resistant to temptations, but with fake charities around they always find a way to spoil and corrupt everything, eventually... | Oct 01 04:46 |
| jgay | r_schestowitz yes I saw your 2008 post about IEEE offering discounts on microsoft products to its student members | Oct 01 04:47 |
| r_schestowitz | thoughts? | Oct 01 04:47 |
| r_schestowitz | this is the sort of stuff I've been writing about since I was 20, I saw lots of really nasty things, worse than this even | Oct 01 04:48 |
| jgay | r_schestowitz not really. They offer discounts on AWS right now because Amazon said they could offer it to its members and they felt it was a good idea to pass along some free savings to its members | Oct 01 04:48 |
| r_schestowitz | so Amazon too is doing it | Oct 01 04:49 |
| r_schestowitz | and IEEE sees no problem with it | Oct 01 04:49 |
| kaniini | I agree that IEEE offering discounts is not an IEEE endorsement of a product or service | Oct 01 04:49 |
| r_schestowitz | you might want to check the bios of all IEEE chiefs | Oct 01 04:49 |
| r_schestowitz | all past employers are past source of income to these people | Oct 01 04:49 |
| jgay | r_schestowitz correct. You will not find a rejection of proprietary software or services in the IEEE Code of Ethics | Oct 01 04:49 |
| jgay | r_schestowitz I am not sure we will ever see a rejection of proprietary osftware or patents in the IEEE Code of Ethics. I do think that you will see real and significant support of open source in varoius parts of the IEEE in the coming months and years. | Oct 01 04:51 |
| r_schestowitz | that would be a positive step | Oct 01 04:51 |
| r_schestowitz | but at the same time I think IEEE would make us more like them, not them like us | Oct 01 04:52 |
| r_schestowitz | so zoobab comes to mind. His 'mentor' used to talk about how we need to make alternatives | Oct 01 04:52 |
| r_schestowitz | in the ISO OOXML fallout one Swiss man created OpenISO | Oct 01 04:52 |
| r_schestowitz | it didn't go far, but he tried | Oct 01 04:52 |
| r_schestowitz | because repairing institutions from the outside is almost impossible unless you have deep pockets, fake 'charities' etc. | Oct 01 04:53 |
| jgay | But, free software is the rejection of proprietary software on ethical grounds. I think when society at large is close to making this committement then IEEE will make it -- they can be little ahead of the curve sometimes. But it was 2015 when the Standards Associatoin at IEEE started seriously exploring open source as an option. Then it was 2017 | Oct 01 04:53 |
| jgay | when they hired their first open source community manager. And hopefully by December of 2019 we will have passed some policy that gives us an open source committee that is at a not-too-low in the org. And we are very close to that happening. | Oct 01 04:53 |
| -viera/#techrights-Tux Machines: Programming: C++, Python, Rust and More http://www.tuxmachines.org/node/128724 [https://pleroma.site/objects/eba90a0c-c911-4e2f-a60a-7c3ccf62e582] | Oct 01 04:55 | |
| jgay | r_schestowitz yes, my hope is to help the IEEE and the Institution of standards development orgs in general (and governmental policy and regulatory agencies that rely on memorandums of understanding with standards bodies) to allow (ethical and real) open source to be a choice | Oct 01 04:55 |
| -->Firee (~Firee@unaffiliated/firee) has joined #techrights | Oct 01 04:55 | |
| r_schestowitz | jgay: IEEE seems to have 'stolen' FSF time | Oct 01 04:56 |
| r_schestowitz | I mean, as FSF chief surely there are pressing things to deal with | Oct 01 04:56 |
| r_schestowitz | and sitting on working groups is not, in my very humble opinion, best use of resources like time | Oct 01 04:57 |
| jgay | r_schestowitz who is FSF chief? | Oct 01 04:57 |
| jgay | r_schestowitz John Sullivan is the executive director at the FSF | Oct 01 04:57 |
| r_schestowitz | like me not going to conferences as I think I can help more by publishing articles | Oct 01 04:57 |
| kaniini | jgay has not been at FSF for some time | Oct 01 04:57 |
| r_schestowitz | ah, confusion | Oct 01 04:57 |
| r_schestowitz | mixup | Oct 01 04:57 |
| jgay | I am a full time employee at the IEEE Standards Association where I have been working tirelessly for the past two years to help them | Oct 01 04:57 |
| jgay | I am their first employee with a dedicated open source title | Oct 01 04:58 |
| r_schestowitz | but anyway, both are key people in FSF 'circles' | Oct 01 04:58 |
| <--mmu_man has quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) | Oct 01 04:58 | |
| jgay | r_schestowitz well when I left the FSF and they signed my settlement agreement, i was forced to sign a contract with a non-disparagement clause. I have clearly violated that a little here, but, I tend to not necessarily feel like I am welcome to be buddy buddy with the FSF as an org (even if I have good relations with staff and some directors) | Oct 01 04:59 |
| r_schestowitz | Based on your tweet I assume you're still involved from a distance | Oct 01 05:00 |
| jgay | My settlement agreement was over some things relating to employee status and exempt (salary) vs non-exempt (hourly) employee policy | Oct 01 05:00 |
| jgay | and my aim in that whole thing was to leave the org better off than it was (I think I may have gotten one of the msallest settlement packages of any of the employees and I didn't really expect anything for myself -- so it wasn't about me cashing out at the end) | Oct 01 05:01 |
| jgay | so I still care deeply about the FSF and try my best to support them in various ways and have definitely helped steer money toward them at times after I left (and will continue to support them in various ways outside of being a member or donor myself) | Oct 01 05:02 |
| jgay | But in general I am not a free software activist. The past year I didn't have a single conversation where people asked me to defend open source or free software, or framed things in a way that basically argued that open source is not a viable or sustainable approach to producing software and other functional works. Or to justify business models | Oct 01 05:04 |
| jgay | (beyond practical discussions about brainstorming revenue streams for an org, etc). | Oct 01 05:04 |
| r_schestowitz | [05:04] <jgay> But in general I am not a free software activist. The past year I didn't have a single conversation where people asked me to defend open source or free software, or framed things in a way that basically argued that open source is not a viable or sustainable approach to producing software and other functional works. Or to justify business models | Oct 01 05:05 |
| jgay | I like not having to convince people of the merits or viability or correctness of open source or free software. I have instead a long line of people who simply want me to help them build collaborative open source projects | Oct 01 05:06 |
| r_schestowitz | maybe that's the key point | Oct 01 05:06 |
| r_schestowitz | some of us view FS as t he only means by which to take back control of people's lives | Oct 01 05:06 |
| r_schestowitz | as more aspects become dominated by technology | Oct 01 05:06 |
| r_schestowitz | even listening devices get installed everywhere, then dubbed "smart" | Oct 01 05:06 |
| jgay | r_schestowitz the biggest challenge is getting free software activists to commit to working on the hard and boring problems that engage institutions with me | Oct 01 05:08 |
| jgay | r_schestowitz it is easy to expound and wail at the "the man". It is harder to get others to join in multi year strategies that are centered around building meaningful alliances with global institutions of power or to work at getting a seat at the table. | Oct 01 05:10 |
| -viera/#techrights-Tux Machines: [Krita] September Development Update http://www.tuxmachines.org/node/128725 [https://pleroma.site/objects/8d6b60aa-ddd1-4e0a-928e-6d27b10353c5] | Oct 01 05:10 | |
| jgay | For the most part, the strategy free software activists take when engaging in such dialogues is to just reject everything that falls short before they have even gotten to the table and thus never get a seat at the table to begin with. | Oct 01 05:10 |
| r_schestowitz | [05:10] <jgay> r_schestowitz it is easy to expound and wail at the "the man". It is harder to get others to join in multi year strategies that are centered around building meaningful alliances with global institutions of power or to work at getting a seat at the table. | Oct 01 05:11 |
| r_schestowitz | we have that already with some groups and institutions | Oct 01 05:11 |
| r_schestowitz | but we need to be picky as well, as some lose sight of what they are or have been malignant all along | Oct 01 05:11 |
| -viera/#techrights-Tux Machines: Devices: 'Team IoT ', Vecow, FriendlyELEC and More http://www.tuxmachines.org/node/128726 [https://pleroma.site/objects/420fff5c-24c2-442f-862e-7bf805df0de4] | Oct 01 05:14 | |
| jgay | yeah we don't really have much in the way of all that. I think a few people who work with FSFE have done an OK job. Loic Dachary has done an OK job. Some in the global south have done an OK job. But, you don't really see efforts for those who are successful to some small measure making strategic alliances with each other to be even more effective | Oct 01 05:14 |
| r_schestowitz | FSFE just gave up | Oct 01 05:14 |
| r_schestowitz | and many people agree with me | Oct 01 05:15 |
| r_schestowitz | they don't seem to be keeping their eyes on the ball anymore | Oct 01 05:15 |
| jgay | it's more like there is success despite the poor disposition and unwillingness to build bridges | Oct 01 05:15 |
| r_schestowitz | tell me where the success is | Oct 01 05:15 |
| r_schestowitz | that companies now call everything "open"? | Oct 01 05:15 |
| r_schestowitz | (even when it's not) | Oct 01 05:15 |
| jgay | So for me, I am trying to make sure that we have open source standards and hopefully some nice ways of supporting financially various open source projects ... most of which I hope will be the kind of "boring infrastructure" type projects that need to be sustained for long periods of time | Oct 01 05:16 |
| r_schestowitz | like with the Hippies movement, they just adapted and rebranded to appease their critics, giving the impression they listened and "have changed" (but did not) | Oct 01 05:16 |
| jgay | r_schestowitz the hippies took power themselves | Oct 01 05:16 |
| r_schestowitz | so we're told | Oct 01 05:17 |
| jgay | we are more like if the hippies went to their farms and died | Oct 01 05:17 |
| r_schestowitz | the suburbans lost, urbanism and inequality and even militarism at all time high | Oct 01 05:17 |
| r_schestowitz | ousting RMS is crucifying those left in the fight | Oct 01 05:18 |
| jgay | r_schestowitz come on dude. All RMS has needed to do is say, "OK, I fucked up, please help me do right to those I have wronged in the past and show me the path forward to being a better person to women" | Oct 01 05:19 |
| r_schestowitz | conformism never leads to any meaningful change | Oct 01 05:19 |
| jgay | and then you know actually stick to that getting advice, help, and following it | Oct 01 05:19 |
| r_schestowitz | jgay: it's not about women | Oct 01 05:19 |
| r_schestowitz | women are the pretext here | Oct 01 05:19 |
| r_schestowitz | this is politics | Oct 01 05:19 |
| r_schestowitz | like they always oust politicians based on "sex" something | Oct 01 05:20 |
| jgay | r_schestowitz pretty sure it is mostly about women and about making a bunch a confusing noise on positoins about pedophilia | Oct 01 05:20 |
| r_schestowitz | brought up a decade late | Oct 01 05:20 |
| r_schestowitz | because the media decided it's time for him "to go" | Oct 01 05:20 |
| r_schestowitz | (and help distract from ACTUAL pedophilia connected to gates) | Oct 01 05:21 |
| jgay | r_schestowitz no it really isn't about the media or the mob. | Oct 01 05:22 |
| r_schestowitz | it is, it is | Oct 01 05:22 |
| r_schestowitz | the FSF didn't just do what it did irrespective of this | Oct 01 05:22 |
| r_schestowitz | nor did the gnome foundation or sfc | Oct 01 05:22 |
| r_schestowitz | http://www.tuxmachines.org/node/128122 | Oct 01 05:23 |
| -TechrightsBot-tr/#techrights-www.tuxmachines.org | Stallman Under Fire for Views on Epstein | Tux Machines | Oct 01 05:23 | |
| r_schestowitz | this is a timeline of how it happened | Oct 01 05:23 |
| r_schestowitz | and who pulled the strong, play a role etc. | Oct 01 05:23 |
| r_schestowitz | viewed 17k times so far | Oct 01 05:23 |
| r_schestowitz | notice how it started and how (and who) reacted | Oct 01 05:24 |
| r_schestowitz | the usual culprits | Oct 01 05:24 |
| jgay | r_schestowitz no. It was him asking specific people things like "would you like to come to my room and listen to records" in the middle of an official even twith other staff and supporters; it was him turning things like removing jokes from gnu.org that were just aweful into some long drawn out argument and battle stretching years (again with many | Oct 01 05:26 |
| jgay | of the same poeple who are working for him full time or volunteering full time, etc); and it was him yelling that the code of conduct at a conference doesnt' apply to him and completely embarrassing the staff; it is him yelling at people over and over at the top of his lungs and screaming in the office; it was so so so many things over the years | Oct 01 05:26 |
| jgay | that made it seem like it will be impossible for him to ever understand why choosing to argue semantics on the term sexual assault is NEVER the place to start the discussion on a very large and public mailing list full of many people hat have been tolerant of his behavior for 10, 20, or 30 years. | Oct 01 05:26 |
| r_schestowitz | What he said in the mailing list wasn't good | Oct 01 05:27 |
| r_schestowitz | but it wasn't entirely unreasonable either, mostly politically-incorrect | Oct 01 05:28 |
| r_schestowitz | maybe he even sensed it while posting | Oct 01 05:28 |
| r_schestowitz | censoring his sites (jokes and such) is a bad idea | Oct 01 05:28 |
| r_schestowitz | I ran my site since 2002 | Oct 01 05:28 |
| r_schestowitz | and I would not like it if people 'advised' me to remove "this and that" | Oct 01 05:28 |
| -->Matroid[m] (matroidmat@gateway/shell/matrix.org/x-pklqfehhmjydatao) has joined #techrights | Oct 01 05:29 | |
| r_schestowitz | some things are old | Oct 01 05:29 |
| jgay | r_schestowitz removing offensive things from gnu.org is what we are talking about not stallman.org | Oct 01 05:29 |
| jgay | or what I referenced | Oct 01 05:29 |
| r_schestowitz | some may be opinions I no longer hold and need not defend | Oct 01 05:29 |
| r_schestowitz | right, but it's up to him | Oct 01 05:29 |
| r_schestowitz | it's his site | Oct 01 05:29 |
| r_schestowitz | and he writes daily | Oct 01 05:29 |
| jgay | r_schestowitz gnu.org? | Oct 01 05:29 |
| r_schestowitz | gnu.org used to be his site | Oct 01 05:29 |
| r_schestowitz | and he still manages that project | Oct 01 05:30 |
| jgay | r_schestowitz you can't really just write what you want to write on a personal site or blog either | Oct 01 05:30 |
| r_schestowitz | changing that because of distortion like https://www.thenewamerican.com/usnews/crime/item/33473-software-activist-resigns-from-mit-after-defending-epstein-pedophilia is unfair | Oct 01 05:30 |
| -TechrightsBot-tr/#techrights-www.thenewamerican.com | Software Activist Resigns From MIT After Defending Epstein, Pedophilia | Oct 01 05:30 | |
| r_schestowitz | he did not defend Epstein, so then they resort to some comment he made on some article ages ago | Oct 01 05:30 |
| jgay | not and also be president and lead spokesperson for an org ... not if it causes problems for the org | Oct 01 05:30 |
| r_schestowitz | jgay: you can | Oct 01 05:31 |
| r_schestowitz | there might be consequences | Oct 01 05:31 |
| jgay | r_schestowitz right. The correct consequence is to ask him to resign. | Oct 01 05:31 |
| r_schestowitz | to say "please kill X" would be illegal | Oct 01 05:31 |
| r_schestowitz | but we're not talking about that sort of stuff | Oct 01 05:31 |
| r_schestowitz | if it causes issues, too bad | Oct 01 05:32 |
| jgay | r_schestowitz but, the point isn't his poitics or most things he wrote on stallman.org. Those things didn't really rise to the inner circle and long time supporters wanting him gone | Oct 01 05:32 |
| r_schestowitz | but self-censorship, even deletion post-publication is deleletionism | Oct 01 05:32 |
| r_schestowitz | people can fetch old texts from Wayback Machne anyway | Oct 01 05:32 |
| r_schestowitz | the deletion itself (the act) can be more damning | Oct 01 05:33 |
| r_schestowitz | [05:31] <jgay> r_schestowitz right. The correct consequence is to ask him to resign. | Oct 01 05:33 |
| r_schestowitz | then we go down a rabbit hole | Oct 01 05:33 |
| r_schestowitz | "self-censor" or you're out | Oct 01 05:33 |
| r_schestowitz | and it can be something he wrote 20 years agi | Oct 01 05:33 |
| jgay | it doesn't matter. The problem is his behavior and attitude and unwillingness to work with an org and a community and his inability to understand why inappropriateness is harmful and offensive and can turn people away form participating with your org and commuinty | Oct 01 05:33 |
| r_schestowitz | nobody is perfect | Oct 01 05:34 |
| r_schestowitz | RMS is far from perfect | Oct 01 05:34 |
| r_schestowitz | many people stick with him not for his odd remarks on sexuality | Oct 01 05:34 |
| r_schestowitz | but for his technical legacy and views on technology | Oct 01 05:34 |
| r_schestowitz | in fact, a lot of people, once they understand what he means (not what media says about these), will agree with him | Oct 01 05:35 |
| r_schestowitz | privacy, autonomy, free speech etc. | Oct 01 05:35 |
| jgay | r_schestowitz but not for his inappropriate sexual advances or being rude and confrontational and condescending to virtually anyone, even those he should be trusting and assuming good faith in? | Oct 01 05:35 |
| jgay | those are the reasons people didn't stick with him | Oct 01 05:36 |
| jgay | as the leader of the FSF and the free software movement. | Oct 01 05:36 |
| r_schestowitz | why do people stick with bill gates| despire crimes, worse things? | Oct 01 05:37 |
| r_schestowitz | Coz he controls the narrative, buys media etc. | Oct 01 05:37 |
| r_schestowitz | RMS cannot afford reputation laundering | Oct 01 05:38 |
| r_schestowitz | Gates is also extremely rude | Oct 01 05:38 |
| r_schestowitz | not whataboutism here | Oct 01 05:38 |
| r_schestowitz | just saying | Oct 01 05:38 |
| r_schestowitz | nobody is perfect | Oct 01 05:38 |
| r_schestowitz | but some manage the narrative better | Oct 01 05:38 |
| jgay | r_schestowitz yes, i also will firmly reject bill gates as the leader of the free software foundation and free software movement | Oct 01 05:38 |
| r_schestowitz | you say RMS shouts | Oct 01 05:39 |
| r_schestowitz | people close to Gates will possibly tell you similar stories of him | Oct 01 05:39 |
| r_schestowitz | but those are repressed and not brought up much | Oct 01 05:39 |
| r_schestowitz | RMS did anger management lessons, he said | Oct 01 05:39 |
| jgay | ok so Gates is a terrible pick for the leader of the free software movement | Oct 01 05:39 |
| r_schestowitz | Gates was trained by a firm to act "nice" | Oct 01 05:39 |
| r_schestowitz | (which isn't trivial for certain types of people) | Oct 01 05:40 |
| r_schestowitz | I can assure you RMS isn't much worse than some CEOs you know | Oct 01 05:40 |
| jgay | you have me there. I don't get this thing with Gates you got going. There are lots of bad people we could pick. Like the "I will go to the grave for them" support of virtually every major political leader ever | Oct 01 05:40 |
| r_schestowitz | not just Gates | Oct 01 05:40 |
| r_schestowitz | Ellison, Jobs... | Oct 01 05:40 |
| r_schestowitz | many of these "tech heroes" | Oct 01 05:40 |
| r_schestowitz | they all have big egos | Oct 01 05:41 |
| jgay | r_schestowitz yeah. There are lots of bad men | Oct 01 05:41 |
| jgay | I agree | Oct 01 05:41 |
| r_schestowitz | some are perverts too | Oct 01 05:41 |
| r_schestowitz | but they get away with you | Oct 01 05:41 |
| r_schestowitz | you have one of them as your pres :-) | Oct 01 05:41 |
| jgay | and you won't find me calling any of them my heros but I understand that when doing moral comparisons, the behavior of rms is on par with these other aweful human beings that society should reject | Oct 01 05:41 |
| jgay | you won me over on that one | Oct 01 05:41 |
| r_schestowitz | anyway | Oct 01 05:42 |
| r_schestowitz | the point is, don't judge only on sex aspects | Oct 01 05:42 |
| jgay | reject rms and other bad men too. Q E D | Oct 01 05:42 |
| r_schestowitz | RMS can be repulsive in certain regards | Oct 01 05:42 |
| r_schestowitz | but the alternatives might be even worse for FSF IMHO | Oct 01 05:42 |
| jgay | r_schestowitz it isn't just sex. It really is the recent blow ups. The Code of Conduct doesn't apply to him statement at libre planet was really bad | Oct 01 05:42 |
| r_schestowitz | people I know from FFS... | Oct 01 05:43 |
| r_schestowitz | FSF | Oct 01 05:43 |
| r_schestowitz | (ex) | Oct 01 05:43 |
| r_schestowitz | tell me | Oct 01 05:43 |
| r_schestowitz | it's like a censorship covenant | Oct 01 05:43 |
| r_schestowitz | even women say this | Oct 01 05:43 |
| r_schestowitz | RMS might rightly perceive this as an attempt to control his communications | Oct 01 05:43 |
| r_schestowitz | (I would not blame him btw, I too say a lot) | Oct 01 05:43 |
| jgay | if he had responded to that CoC thing well, I think he may have had a chance being able to dig his way out of hte Epstein stuff | Oct 01 05:44 |
| r_schestowitz | I've probably 'offended' just about every 'group' in some past 'tweet' | Oct 01 05:44 |
| r_schestowitz | there's no Epstein stuff per se | Oct 01 05:44 |
| r_schestowitz | He's not connected to Epstein | Oct 01 05:44 |
| r_schestowitz | He defended a deceased friend | Oct 01 05:44 |
| r_schestowitz | not Epstein, whom he called "serial rapist" | Oct 01 05:44 |
| jgay | I know exactly what he said about Minsky and I can understand where his comments came from. He didn't think it would be fair to accuse Minsky of having committed sexual assault if Minsky was (old and as ugly as he was at the time) of such limited capacity to reason that he felt that the 19 year old eastern european girl on the almost private island | Oct 01 05:48 |
| jgay | approaching him to have sex was somehow doing it | Oct 01 05:48 |
| jgay | consensually | Oct 01 05:49 |
| jgay | of her own free will | Oct 01 05:49 |
| jgay | But, the point is, when it was pointed out how wrong he was, what he should have done is worked with the FSF and other community members to issue a formal statement apologizing for the incensistive and poorly chosen statement. Even a bad non-apology probably would have been "good enough" | Oct 01 05:54 |
| jgay | sorry a bad non-apology apology would have been "good enough" | Oct 01 05:54 |
| r_schestowitz | example from 24 hoursa go: | Oct 01 05:56 |
| r_schestowitz | #CBC News does piece on #MIT and #Epstein but #billgates not mentioned even once (he's a close friend of Epstein, his 'MIT mule') whereas RMS mentioned (he called Epstein "serial rapist"). | Oct 01 05:56 |
| r_schestowitz | #corporatemedia http://www.tuxmachines.org/node/128122?page=1#comment-21882 | Oct 01 05:56 |
| -TechrightsBot-tr/#techrights-www.tuxmachines.org | Stallman Under Fire for Views on Epstein | Tux Machines | Oct 01 05:56 | |
| jgay | r_schestowitz the CBC article is pointing to the fact that RMS took as his hypothetical thta Minsky slept with the young woman and with that assumption, and instead of arguing clearly and simply that Minsky's behavior was clearly wrong, RMS instead argues over semantics of words like rape and how it is poor diction -- the overall effect of which is | Oct 01 06:04 |
| jgay | rationalizing the behavior of Minsky as possibly being something other than a sexual predator. | Oct 01 06:04 |
| kaniini | I disagree. I think it's ok to defend Minsky. | Oct 01 06:04 |
| kaniini | but | Oct 01 06:04 |
| kaniini | the way I would have done it would have been to observe that an offer being made does not mean the offer was accepted (and indeed no evidence supports that either way) | Oct 01 06:05 |
| kaniini | condemn the offer but observe that the complaint only stated an offer was made, not executed on | Oct 01 06:05 |
| kaniini | what RMS did instead threw Minsky under the bus by going with the narrative that he executed on the sex offer | Oct 01 06:06 |
| r_schestowitz | [06:05] <kaniini> the way I would have done it would have been to observe that an offer being made does not mean the offer was accepted (and indeed no evidence supports that either way) | Oct 01 06:08 |
| r_schestowitz | I know very very little about the Minsky think (tbh, that's not the most important aspect) | Oct 01 06:09 |
| r_schestowitz | but I was told that RMS had better mentioned eyewitnesses who said Minsky turned down an offer | Oct 01 06:09 |
| kaniini | yes | Oct 01 06:09 |
| kaniini | there were eyewitnesses | Oct 01 06:10 |
| kaniini | but, eyewitnesses don't mean anything | Oct 01 06:10 |
| kaniini | and Minsky did violate MIT policy by engaging with Epstein to ask for funding | Oct 01 06:10 |
| r_schestowitz | and either way, posthumous accusations are always unethical at some level | Oct 01 06:10 |
| kaniini | but that would have remained an internal MIT issue | Oct 01 06:10 |
| kaniini | if it were not for RMS's blowup about it | Oct 01 06:10 |
| r_schestowitz | RMS said much worse things in the past | Oct 01 06:11 |
| kaniini | yes | Oct 01 06:11 |
| r_schestowitz | but this is the thing that 'blew it' for MIT, than FSF | Oct 01 06:11 |
| r_schestowitz | (under pressure) | Oct 01 06:11 |
| r_schestowitz | *then | Oct 01 06:11 |
| *kaniini shrugs | Oct 01 06:12 | |
| *r_schestowitz always finds his remarks on pedophile politicians ("party") most disturbing of all | Oct 01 06:12 | |
| r_schestowitz | (same for Amos Yee) | Oct 01 06:12 |
| kaniini | i think the point is that FSF people were tired of it | Oct 01 06:12 |
| kaniini | dealing with RMS has always been a battle of attrition | Oct 01 06:13 |
| *r_schestowitz thinks people need to prove more into the Gates thing (but won't) | Oct 01 06:13 | |
| kaniini | i think the gates thing is deflection :) | Oct 01 06:14 |
| r_schestowitz | http://techrights.org/2015/01/03/prison-and-gates/ | Oct 01 06:14 |
| kaniini | sure, there is a thing, and sure it should be investigated | Oct 01 06:14 |
| -TechrightsBot-tr/#techrights-techrights.org | Thousands of Child Rape Photos Traded Out of Bill Gates’ Mansion | Techrights | Oct 01 06:14 | |
| r_schestowitz | (analogy being, RMS said they should legalise heroin, whereas someone else was a heroin dealer, not just user) | Oct 01 06:14 |
| r_schestowitz | Gates scandal very much connected to MIT | Oct 01 06:15 |
| r_schestowitz | It'll be harder to find in news feeds and search engines now | Oct 01 06:15 |
| *r_schestowitz wonders when there will be a scandal over Saudi money for MIT :-) | Oct 01 06:16 | |
| *r_schestowitz still breathing, not holding breath | Oct 01 06:16 | |
| jgay | kaniini right in the hypothetical argument, rms assumed Minsky had slept with Virginia Giuffre. This makes sense, since Virginia Giuffre testified that she had slept with Minsky. So it was the right assumption to make. After that, it should be clear that anything else he says should only be too bring the attention on victims and on the need to keep | Oct 01 06:28 |
| jgay | sexual predators out of MIT | Oct 01 06:28 |
| kaniini | did she? i thought she testified that she made an offer | Oct 01 06:29 |
| jgay | r_schestowitz it isn't really a posthumous accusation. Virginia Giuffre testified that she was instructed to go give Minsky a massage and she said she did, which meant she gave him a massage and then had sex with him (as she explains in her deposition) | Oct 01 06:30 |
| kaniini | well that is disappointing | Oct 01 06:30 |
| r_schestowitz | jgay: was this testimony made after he had died? Asking seriously, don't know. | Oct 01 06:31 |
| kaniini | in that case, i agree with jgay that he should have just shut the hell up :) | Oct 01 06:31 |
| kaniini | r_schestowitz: no, but it was unsealed after he died | Oct 01 06:31 |
| r_schestowitz | OK | Oct 01 06:31 |
| r_schestowitz | I don't know the "technicality" (for lack of a better word) of the case, but... I believe, still, RMS made redundant remarks | Oct 01 06:32 |
| r_schestowitz | how the media then twisted it was my main issue with it alll | Oct 01 06:32 |
| kaniini | i think given the testimony, he should have left it alone :) | Oct 01 06:33 |
| jgay | kaniini the whole case was Virginia Giuffre vs the "madame" that instructed her to have sex with people. She could only remember a handful of people and places and it was blurred. But, she did a very good job of pinpointing Minsky in the US Virgin Islands and the approximate date. And that corresponds with when Minsky held a small symposium on | Oct 01 06:33 |
| jgay | Epstein's island in the US Virgin islands. Maybe it wasn't Minsky but someother person she was instructed to give a massage to and have sex with -- but, she remembers it being Minsky | Oct 01 06:33 |
| r_schestowitz | it's not even about the whole "assault" or "not assault" | Oct 01 06:33 |
| r_schestowitz | but asserting that he "supports Epstein" | Oct 01 06:33 |
| r_schestowitz | This is the sort of headliner parroted everywhere | Oct 01 06:33 |
| kaniini | yes i don't think RMS was intending to "support" Epstein | Oct 01 06:33 |
| r_schestowitz | as if RMS is some sort of 'little girls bondage' man | Oct 01 06:34 |
| kaniini | but defend Minsky | Oct 01 06:34 |
| r_schestowitz | RMS has already (ages beforehand) condemned Epstein | Oct 01 06:34 |
| jgay | I mean look at how Roger Schank described what that symposium was like | Oct 01 06:34 |
| kaniini | well | Oct 01 06:34 |
| kaniini | if it is a symposium on epstein's private island | Oct 01 06:34 |
| jgay | Epstein’s former neighbor, the psychologist and computer scientist Roger Schank, describes another such event that he attended: a meeting of artificial-intelligence experts, organized by Marvin Minsky and held on Epstein’s island in April 2002. “Epstein walks into the conference with two girls on his arm,” said Schank. The scientists were | Oct 01 06:34 |
| jgay | holding their discussions in a small room, and as they talked, “[Epstein] was in the back, on a couch, hugging and kissing these girls.” | Oct 01 06:34 |
| kaniini | i think that pretty much | Oct 01 06:34 |
| kaniini | covers it | Oct 01 06:34 |
| kaniini | tbh | Oct 01 06:34 |
| jgay | From the Salon article | Oct 01 06:35 |
| jgay | sorry not salon, slate | Oct 01 06:35 |
| kaniini | creepy | Oct 01 06:35 |
| jgay | https://slate.com/technology/2019/08/jeffrey-epstein-science-eugenics-sexual-abuse-researchers.html | Oct 01 06:35 |
| -TechrightsBot-tr/#techrights-slate.com | What it was like to be a scientist in Jeffrey Epstein’s circle. | Oct 01 06:35 | |
| kaniini | anyway | Oct 01 06:37 |
| kaniini | the real quesiton is | Oct 01 06:37 |
| kaniini | what now | Oct 01 06:37 |
| -->poet (~user@2607:fb90:a08a:d69f:106c:9b6e:fd:4bc) has joined #techrights | Oct 01 06:37 | |
| r_schestowitz | hi poet | Oct 01 06:37 |
| poet | r_schestowitz: Hello. =) | Oct 01 06:38 |
| r_schestowitz | kaniini: he never responded to your prior question about server access etc. | Oct 01 06:38 |
| r_schestowitz | (not to suggest evasiveness) | Oct 01 06:38 |
| kaniini | presumably that means he does not know when the server was moved | Oct 01 06:38 |
| jgay | i may have missed a question. what was it? | Oct 01 06:38 |
| r_schestowitz | I just want to know what it might have been, RMS said "in error" | Oct 01 06:38 |
| r_schestowitz | kaniini: can you find it in scroll-up? | Oct 01 06:39 |
| kaniini | RMS answer makes sense. if he has delegated access to an unknown untrustworthy actor, then obviously he is not going to admit it | Oct 01 06:39 |
| kaniini | jgay: i asked if you knew when stallman.org was moved from FSF infrastructure to positive internet | Oct 01 06:39 |
| r_schestowitz | kaniini: you said some articles of him came from interns | Oct 01 06:39 |
| jgay | stallman.org was never hosted on FSF infrastructure as far as I know. I believe it was always outside of that. That being said, it would not surprise me if an employee was granted access to it or if they simply found a way to trick a volunteer into updating the site through the usual method of updating the site, which I think is to send an email | Oct 01 06:39 |
| jgay | request to one of the people that updates RMS's site for hinm | Oct 01 06:39 |
| kaniini | r_schestowitz: yes, that is true :) | Oct 01 06:39 |
| kaniini | many of the articles on fsf.org and gnu.org attributed to RMS are actually written by interns | Oct 01 06:40 |
| r_schestowitz | email updates MIGHT make sense | Oct 01 06:40 |
| oiaohm | kaniini: the big problem is when you are in a management role your job is basically a judge. | Oct 01 06:40 |
| kaniini | oiaohm: its true | Oct 01 06:40 |
| r_schestowitz | except, a link was modified to a youtube url | Oct 01 06:40 |
| jgay | but generally RMS has always done a really good job of not having any FSF people do anything stallman.org related and to keep a big firewall between them | Oct 01 06:40 |
| r_schestowitz | (which I doubt can be relayed via email) | Oct 01 06:40 |
| oiaohm | kaniini: RMS titles with GNU and FSF meant he was in management of those groups. | Oct 01 06:40 |
| jgay | like for at least hte past decade | Oct 01 06:40 |
| kaniini | oiaohm: also true | Oct 01 06:40 |
| jgay | r_schestowitz no, it probably is all done over email | Oct 01 06:41 |
| r_schestowitz | jgay: he was pushed out not for FSF stuff | Oct 01 06:41 |
| r_schestowitz | but for MIT post | Oct 01 06:41 |
| r_schestowitz | and maybe some old stuff from stallman.org | Oct 01 06:41 |
| oiaohm | With the recent cases showing the old law applied the way RMS attempt to defend friend was not a workable option. | Oct 01 06:41 |
| r_schestowitz | so the separation does not seem to be wholly honoured by tge FSF's Board | Oct 01 06:41 |
| poet | I just finished reading "Getting Stallman Wrong," and I wanted to say what an absolutely fantastic article it is. Thank you. =) | Oct 01 06:42 |
| oiaohm | kaniini: its the hard part about being in management is at times you cannot defend your friends because its counter to your job requirements. | Oct 01 06:42 |
| r_schestowitz | poet: excellent | Oct 01 06:42 |
| jgay | r_schestowitz yes his old comments about pedophilia on stallman.org and his comments on csail were problematic. The board has not really shared much about what the discussion with RMS was like or if staff like John Sullivan asked to do a formal apology and that was rejected by RMS -- I don't know all those details. | Oct 01 06:43 |
| kaniini | jgay: then that would indicate that it's one of his 'volunteers' that likely mucked with his site | Oct 01 06:43 |
| r_schestowitz | jgay: interestign... | Oct 01 06:43 |
| r_schestowitz | so now we get some inside story | Oct 01 06:43 |
| r_schestowitz | what was the apology >for< (as requested)? | Oct 01 06:43 |
| kaniini | he said he didn't know if one was requested | Oct 01 06:43 |
| jgay | r_schestowitz I don't know if John did ask him if the FSF can/should do an apology. If I were in John's shoes, i would have immediately raised it as an idea, and then i would have brought it up again after the conservancy made its statement | Oct 01 06:44 |
| oiaohm | kaniini: I have been in the location where management could not defend me until I produced all the facts they need to prove the claim was absolutely false. It was not because the manager was a jerk it was just the legal restrictions of the position. | Oct 01 06:45 |
| r_schestowitz | jgay: was there a vote as I heard? | Oct 01 06:47 |
| r_schestowitz | on RMS? | Oct 01 06:47 |
| oiaohm | jgay: the big there those old items were problemmatic yet they left RMS in the management role. Those really should been enough back then to move him to PR or something lower where he was not an absolute authority. | Oct 01 06:47 |
| r_schestowitz | and a threat to push him out unless he resigns? | Oct 01 06:47 |
| jgay | oiaohm I am confident that FSF staff (and it's executive director) would not in any way offer to defend RMS's comments that were made on the csail mailing list. I could see them saying something like apologize for those hurt and reaffirm RMS's position that is strongly against Epstein and any sexual predator, etc. | Oct 01 06:47 |
| r_schestowitz | he did make a statement | Oct 01 06:48 |
| jgay | oiaohm well he was president of the FSF. He wasn't management | Oct 01 06:48 |
| r_schestowitz | apologising in public | Oct 01 06:48 |
| r_schestowitz | a | Oct 01 06:48 |
| r_schestowitz | a day or so later he said he resigned from the MIT thing due to a lot of pressure | Oct 01 06:48 |
| oiaohm | jgay: president in company is still management as the final person to take a unresolved problem to. | Oct 01 06:48 |
| kaniini | he apologized to CSAIL for offending people, not for his comments | Oct 01 06:48 |
| jgay | in the US, the board and president are somewhat firewalled from the CEO/Executive Director that is hired to run the organization. | Oct 01 06:48 |
| r_schestowitz | he said it was misunderstood | Oct 01 06:48 |
| r_schestowitz | and said the media had distored it | Oct 01 06:49 |
| r_schestowitz | which was also true | Oct 01 06:49 |
| r_schestowitz | did they ask for a retraction or apology/ | Oct 01 06:49 |
| oiaohm | r_schestowitz: true to a point the media had distorted it. But some of the point RMS did used were not current law and had not been current law for over 2 decades. | Oct 01 06:50 |
| jgay | I mean, the point is, there are lots of ways to handle situations where you fuck up. RMS fucked up and any number of possibilities were readily available to him any minute or hour of the day at no cost and that could be trusted. He knows that there are lots of people close to the FSF that are better at communications than he is and he could have | Oct 01 06:50 |
| jgay | asked for help | Oct 01 06:50 |
| jgay | If he did ask for help and this is what he got, then that is really really sad. But, I suspect he didn't ask for help. | Oct 01 06:50 |
| r_schestowitz | the media would not have changed its tune | Oct 01 06:51 |
| r_schestowitz | even better communicators cannot properly deal with malicious liars | Oct 01 06:51 |
| kaniini | sure they can | Oct 01 06:51 |
| r_schestowitz | in this case, some of whom employed by a friend of Bill Gates himself, as was the case here | Oct 01 06:51 |
| kaniini | you get in front of the lie | Oct 01 06:51 |
| jgay | He knows he sucks at doing certain things when it comes to communicating. I know he knows this because he has explained it to me in very clear terms about what his strengths and weaknesses are and how he trusted me to do the right hting in strategic approaches so long as I kept within certain requirements he felt were essential | Oct 01 06:51 |
| r_schestowitz | I suppose he thought the media would stop | Oct 01 06:52 |
| oiaohm | jgay: when it comes to legal messes like sexual assault and other claims CEO/Executive director firewall from precedent and board does not work due to the old law. The old law you with the right to take those complains to the board/president. | Oct 01 06:52 |
| r_schestowitz | but it carried on and on for a week, same line of lies | Oct 01 06:52 |
| oiaohm | jgay: some of the splits in management do work for some things and not for others even in the USA. | Oct 01 06:52 |
| jgay | r_schestowitz it isn't about popular opinion or the media. It is about those close to the FSF, those allies, those supporters who have and want to work with them, being able to trust that he is also willing to work with them on doing what is right for the movement. But after the conservancy statement, it would have taken a lot more than just asking | Oct 01 06:55 |
| jgay | for help. He should have been on a plane pleading with Karen and/or Bradley. Apologizing. Conceding to support when it comes to communications, etc. This was the end: https://sfconservancy.org/news/2019/sep/16/rms-does-not-speak-for-us/ | Oct 01 06:55 |
| -TechrightsBot-tr/#techrights-sfconservancy.org | Richard Stallman Does Not and Cannot Speak for the Free Software Movement - Software Freedom Conservancy | Oct 01 06:55 | |
| oiaohm | Being a CEO or on a board you are really required keep up on particular things. There are lot who don't and a lot every year get dismissed from management/boards for equal screw up. | Oct 01 06:55 |
| -viera/#techrights-Tux Machines: Events: Hackathon Event, Helm Summit, LinuxConf [ZA] and Open Graphics in Montreal http://www.tuxmachines.org/node/128727 [https://pleroma.site/objects/c7a389d5-789a-425f-901a-18932971a5a6] | Oct 01 06:55 | |
| oiaohm | If RMS was not famous this would be lucky to get a note in the 10 page of the local newspaper. | Oct 01 06:56 |
| jgay | I mean when you start losing massive percentage of your membership in a span of 24 hours, there is a right way to respond | Oct 01 06:56 |
| jgay | when you are the president of an org | Oct 01 06:56 |
| jgay | like a million right ways to respond | Oct 01 06:56 |
| *r_schestowitz clearly recalls how the media did the same thing to Wikileaks and Assange for many years, not one week | Oct 01 06:56 | |
| r_schestowitz | jgay: media did its job | Oct 01 06:57 |
| r_schestowitz | to defund an org | Oct 01 06:57 |
| r_schestowitz | and a movement | Oct 01 06:57 |
| r_schestowitz | as it wished | Oct 01 06:57 |
| jgay | it is clear that even if the media is distorting what you are saying, you need to go above and beyond most anything you have ever done to assure people you will do better and you need to take actions that show that | Oct 01 06:57 |
| r_schestowitz | that's corporate media power | Oct 01 06:57 |
| jgay | it iddn't defund it | Oct 01 06:57 |
| r_schestowitz | and that's why it exists, why corporations sink money into it | Oct 01 06:57 |
| jgay | it wasn't anywhere close to being in danger in that regard I don't think | Oct 01 06:58 |
| kaniini | jgay++ | Oct 01 06:58 |
| r_schestowitz | $100,000,000 per year are spent by Gates bribing publishers | Oct 01 06:58 |
| r_schestowitz | Now they focus on "GAFA" | Oct 01 06:58 |
| jgay | the point is that you need metrics to help inform you. There were lots of stuff I did in which we would lose a bunch of members and/or subscribers to mailing lists | Oct 01 06:58 |
| r_schestowitz | well, RMS lost control of the narrative and his words did not help | Oct 01 06:59 |
| oiaohm | r_schestowitz: with wikileaks and Assange it was a uphill battle. | Oct 01 06:59 |
| jgay | We would look at it and decide if it was something that should change our tactics or approach. Sometimes we said: no, this is OK, we can't win over everyone, a lot of people don't like our negative campaigning tactics but we should see them through a bit more and look at other facteors as well | Oct 01 06:59 |
| r_schestowitz | but that should not be a 'sackable' 'offense' | Oct 01 06:59 |
| kaniini | i think BadVista was a bad move tbh | Oct 01 06:59 |
| r_schestowitz | I think not | Oct 01 07:00 |
| jgay | other times we said, "OK, well, they hvea a point, we can be negative campaigners in a variety fo ways, maybe we should choose some that are more effective at building up more support and do just as well at creating public awareness on important computer user freedom issues" | Oct 01 07:00 |
| r_schestowitz | criticism is important | Oct 01 07:00 |
| kaniini | criticism is important, but they beat that horse until it was not just dead, but a skeleton | Oct 01 07:00 |
| oiaohm | r_schestowitz: No its a sackable offence with out question. The the prior cases one in Australia and USA proved where if you are a board don't sack the person count can do it for you and sack even more. | Oct 01 07:00 |
| r_schestowitz | maybe that's why techrights fills a gap FSF won't fill anymore | Oct 01 07:00 |
| jgay | kaniini we concluded that it was probably the right campaign to close and that we could do better in future ones | Oct 01 07:00 |
| kaniini | meanwhile cloud computing was rising | Oct 01 07:00 |
| kaniini | and FSF didn't respond until it was too late | Oct 01 07:00 |
| oiaohm | count/court | Oct 01 07:00 |
| r_schestowitz | kaniini: true | Oct 01 07:01 |
| kaniini | and then RMS came out even later and said if you use AGPL, you're on your own with enforcing it | Oct 01 07:01 |
| jgay | kaniini I mean, you have a small staff, you have some ideas of what to do, you don't have a lot of wisdom. There is no "netroots" conference yet. Nobody wanted to work for the FSf and certainly not for the pay. So we did what we could do | Oct 01 07:01 |
| oiaohm | r_schestowitz: of course that does not mean he cannot be highered in a lower power role. | Oct 01 07:01 |
| oiaohm | r_schestowitz: basically complex on paper demotion. | Oct 01 07:01 |
| r_schestowitz | RMS did speak out against "cloud" in 2008 | Oct 01 07:01 |
| r_schestowitz | https://www.theguardian.com/technology/2008/sep/29/cloud.computing.richard.stallman | Oct 01 07:02 |
| -TechrightsBot-tr/#techrights-www.theguardian.com | Cloud computing is a trap, warns GNU founder | Technology | The Guardian | Oct 01 07:02 | |
| oiaohm | The title of GNU founder RMS can keep on using. | Oct 01 07:02 |
| r_schestowitz | even my employer fell for this "Cloud" idiocy | Oct 01 07:02 |
| jgay | One nice result was when brett smith left, I was confident that we had reached a place where the FSF and online-based activism in general were appealing enough that I knew we could get a strong pool of applicants to do campaigns management. So I took on the much harder to hire for job of licensing and compliance manager and made room for new | Oct 01 07:02 |
| jgay | campaigns managers. | Oct 01 07:02 |
| oiaohm | r_schestowitz: management/board/president roles have requires that the person be of good and suitable character or at least smart enough to keep there mouth shut on particular topics that could dig them into a hole. | Oct 01 07:04 |
| jgay | It was the right move. Although, I think that overall, we ewren't doing a great job of creating an infrastructure and process for deciding how to go about creating new campaigns or re-invigorating existing ones. That was a major lesson for me personally. After I left, I think that the FSF did away with the role of campaigns manager as I don't think | Oct 01 07:05 |
| jgay | anyone has that title anymore -- or at least, I don't think anyone does right now | Oct 01 07:05 |
| oiaohm | I have been really supprised how long RMS in a incorrect role managed to stay there. | Oct 01 07:05 |
| <--taiyu has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) | Oct 01 07:05 | |
| jgay | One thing I hope the FSF does is find ways to bring in more of its community to help on making strategic decisions and in experimenting. Like, I imagine you could spin out a lot of small activist campaigns and basically keep them a good distance away from the FSF, but have them be informed and aligned with the FSF's mission. Those that start to | Oct 01 07:06 |
| jgay | build momentum, are timely, and seem to be working well, could then be embraced more directly by the FSF. | Oct 01 07:06 |
| -->taiyu (~taiyu@unaffiliated/taiyu) has joined #techrights | Oct 01 07:07 | |
| jgay | While I think it would be fine to shut down directory.fsf.org, I also think that an alternative approach could be to go ahead and take an entirely different approach. Really focus on the fact that underlying the directory is a database which is designed to be integrated with a SPARQL server | Oct 01 07:08 |
| jgay | Go ahead and push on creating an awesome JSON-linked schema on describing free software packages and then work with communities to build maps between distros and packaging systems (like node, etc). on the package description files. Go ahead and embrace snaps and collaborate. Work with everyone you can . But, make committments. Like, make | Oct 01 07:12 |
| jgay | committments to upstream. Reject nonfree software. Reject nonfree repos.. Avoid the "windows trap" etc. And frame your committment to free software as being the public commons that benefits humanity and say that if others want to play by a different rules, they are also free to make use of their own data stores but you encourage them to not mix and | Oct 01 07:12 |
| jgay | match free and nonfree. Etc | Oct 01 07:12 |
| -viera/#techrights-Tux Machines: OSS: Sun, TensorFlow, WordPress, RenPyWeb, MediaGoblin et al and GPL http://www.tuxmachines.org/node/128728 [https://pleroma.site/objects/0868ccf9-69cd-4f1c-9465-f34ff3028176] | Oct 01 07:13 | |
| -viera/#techrights-Tux Machines: today's howtos http://www.tuxmachines.org/node/128729 [https://pleroma.site/objects/0eddd248-abc1-48e4-976e-d48864b32650] | Oct 01 07:15 | |
| jgay | Oh man. Now that I'm started I have like a long list of good ideas. But, my real point is, I would love to feel like there was a commuinty of people who would work with me on helping to flush out good ideas and more community to help figure out what are the best ideas amongst those ideas to pursue. And then hopefully an FSF that would have a way to | Oct 01 07:16 |
| jgay | allocate at least some of its resources to backing and supporting volunteers doing such work that aligned politically and with messaging. Like, even if it was limited to only putting a fraction of its resources toward democratically aligned ideas that fall within some criteria set by the board, etc. I think that even opening the door a little bit | Oct 01 07:16 |
| jgay | in that way would lead to some pretty amazing things | Oct 01 07:16 |
| jgay | Well. I had my shot and I took it. I dont' think I'm the right person to help the FSF. Too much history. We need fresh eyes and some new people. | Oct 01 07:22 |
| jgay | r_schestowitz thank you for your time and engaging in this discussion this evening and for helping to host a welcoming forum and community hub. I appreciate what you do. | Oct 01 07:23 |
| jgay | kaniini thank you as well | Oct 01 07:23 |
| kaniini | night | Oct 01 07:23 |
| jgay | g'night | Oct 01 07:24 |
| r_schestowitz | 0/ | Oct 01 07:24 |
| -->icavot (~icavot@178.133.203.113.dynamic.jazztel.es) has joined #techrights | Oct 01 07:42 | |
| <--poet has quit (Quit: ERC (IRC client for Emacs 26.3)) | Oct 01 07:48 | |
| <--icavot has quit (Quit: Leaving) | Oct 01 08:10 | |
| r_schestowitz | so we got some clues about internal FSF affairs | Oct 01 08:52 |
| r_schestowitz | RMS: | Oct 01 08:54 |
| r_schestowitz | > /I have been hit, but | Oct 01 08:54 |
| r_schestowitz | > not knocked out, and my campaign for free software is not over. I | Oct 01 08:54 |
| r_schestowitz | > appreciate your moral support, but there I also need your help. | Oct 01 08:54 |
| r_schestowitz | > | Oct 01 08:54 |
| r_schestowitz | > Everyone on the FSF board is dedicated to free software. The question is, | Oct 01 08:54 |
| r_schestowitz | > will they stand as firm as is needed against outside pressure? | Oct 01 08:54 |
| r_schestowitz | > | Oct 01 08:54 |
| r_schestowitz | > You can help them be firm. You can (1) join as an associate member | Oct 01 08:54 |
| r_schestowitz | > (if you aren't already) and (2) tell the organization that you want it | Oct 01 08:54 |
| r_schestowitz | > to stick to the principles and priorities that I have set. You can | Oct 01 08:54 |
| r_schestowitz | > write to info@fsf.org <mailto:info@fsf.org>. I suggest keeping it short! | Oct 01 08:54 |
| r_schestowitz | > | Oct 01 08:54 |
| r_schestowitz | > If you can't afford to join, you can still state your views to the | Oct 01 08:54 |
| r_schestowitz | > FSF. | Oct 01 08:54 |
| r_schestowitz | > | Oct 01 08:54 |
| r_schestowitz | > Aside from that, you could speak up in mailing lists and discussions | Oct 01 08:54 |
| r_schestowitz | > (don't bother with Twitter), to inform people that the media articles | Oct 01 08:54 |
| r_schestowitz | > misrepresented my views; then help people understand by showing and | Oct 01 08:54 |
| r_schestowitz | > explaining my actual words. | Oct 01 08:54 |
| r_schestowitz | > | Oct 01 08:54 |
| r_schestowitz | > Either one, or both, could make a difference. So thank you for | Oct 01 08:54 |
| r_schestowitz | > whatever you do./ | Oct 01 08:54 |
| r_schestowitz | (this is new) | Oct 01 08:54 |
| r_schestowitz | kaniini: | Oct 01 09:18 |
| r_schestowitz | RMS: | Oct 01 09:19 |
| r_schestowitz | > stallman.org has not moved. It has been hosted by the same company | Oct 01 09:19 |
| r_schestowitz | > for many years. It was never hosted by the FSF. On the contrary, I | Oct 01 09:19 |
| r_schestowitz | > started it to keep it separate from the FSF. | Oct 01 09:19 |
| kaniini | ok | Oct 01 09:19 |
| kaniini | so that means it is one of his volunteers who is fucking around :) | Oct 01 09:19 |
| r_schestowitz | seems likely | Oct 01 09:19 |
| r_schestowitz | I will amend my article | Oct 01 09:20 |
| r_schestowitz | FOR IMMEDIATE PUBLICATION: What Stallman Wants | Oct 01 09:21 |
| r_schestowitz | Guest Post | Oct 01 09:21 |
| r_schestowitz | Should be ready is about 20 mins | Oct 01 09:22 |
| r_schestowitz | Re: SO MUCH going on today!> and most of it is accessible from the podiverse. | Oct 01 09:23 |
| r_schestowitz | > | Oct 01 09:23 |
| r_schestowitz | > not all of it. this is a major, major day for the renewed fight against non-free software. i dont think ive ever seen anything like it. | Oct 01 09:23 |
| r_schestowitz | > | Oct 01 09:23 |
| r_schestowitz | > if youre looking for hope, look hard! its everywhere. reaching a tipping point, my friend. cheers. | Oct 01 09:23 |
| r_schestowitz | we will come back stronger, eventually | Oct 01 09:23 |
| -->Aurelie_ (~Aurelie_@host86-161-33-100.range86-161.btcentralplus.com) has joined #techrights | Oct 01 09:47 | |
| -viera/#techrights-Tux Machines: Guest Post: What Stallman Wants http://techrights.org/2019/10/01/what-stallman-wants/ [https://pleroma.site/objects/5bd130f9-676c-4064-bf2b-36f72da054cd] | Oct 01 10:06 | |
| <--Aurelie_ has quit (Quit: Leaving) | Oct 01 10:07 | |
| -->mmu_man (~revol@vaf26-2-82-244-111-82.fbx.proxad.net) has joined #techrights | Oct 01 10:08 | |
| r_schestowitz | I'm writing a statement on this issue | Oct 01 10:45 |
| r_schestowitz | personal statement | Oct 01 10:45 |
| -viera/#techrights-Tux Machines: My Personal Position on Richard Stallman and the FSF: Details Will Eventually Emerge, Information Will Set Us Free (as in Freedom) http://techrights.org/2019/10/01/richard-stallman-and-the-fsf/ [https://pleroma.site/objects/ada5f063-db84-470b-b172-2b7613fe765b] | Oct 01 11:21 | |
| -viera/#techrights-Tux Machines: Earning, spending, saving: The currency of influence in open source http://www.tuxmachines.org/node/128730 [https://pleroma.site/objects/ebc70132-b60d-4222-a13c-bb9cef64f6b1] | Oct 01 11:22 | |
| <--jgay has quit (Remote host closed the connection) | Oct 01 11:33 | |
| -viera/#techrights-Tux Machines: The monumental impact of C http://www.tuxmachines.org/node/128731 [https://pleroma.site/objects/792d12f0-cfef-4ba7-a707-1488be8d9e42] | Oct 01 11:44 | |
| -viera/#techrights-Tux Machines: Connecting A Physical DEC vt420 to Linux http://www.tuxmachines.org/node/128732 [https://pleroma.site/objects/ba2a4732-aa07-4408-9868-c7bfdfb08a58] | Oct 01 11:46 | |
| <--mf7 has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) | Oct 01 11:47 | |
| -viera/#techrights-Tux Machines: How to keep your messages private with an open source app http://www.tuxmachines.org/node/128733 [https://pleroma.site/objects/40edb8d5-460e-4eba-9d2c-f3f4c3757ff4] | Oct 01 11:47 | |
| -->MrGreenFriend (~MrGreenFr@gateway/tor-sasl/mrgreenfriend) has joined #techrights | Oct 01 11:52 | |
| -viera/#techrights-Tux Machines: #Android Leftovers http://www.tuxmachines.org/node/128734 [https://pleroma.site/objects/37d3e9a9-7bdf-4fe7-9aab-eee4a4663cba] | Oct 01 11:55 | |
| <--MrGreenFriend has quit (Remote host closed the connection) | Oct 01 11:57 | |
| -viera/#techrights-Tux Machines: Standards/Consortia: HTML and Media Format http://www.tuxmachines.org/node/128735 [https://pleroma.site/objects/2325e64c-1beb-49af-8750-3b1c658fe1b4] | Oct 01 12:11 | |
| -viera/#techrights-Tux Machines: Debian/Ubuntu Leftovers http://www.tuxmachines.org/node/128736 [https://pleroma.site/objects/628443f2-ee56-4a9e-b6e6-709c7422fef8] | Oct 01 12:16 | |
| -viera/#techrights-Tux Machines: Proprietary Software and Microsoft http://www.tuxmachines.org/node/128737 [https://pleroma.site/objects/b6cc9fa6-ba03-4b3d-8594-4aa75e8b9dde] | Oct 01 12:21 | |
| -viera/#techrights-Tux Machines: today's leftovers http://www.tuxmachines.org/node/128738 [https://pleroma.site/objects/f0dfdc02-4213-45c5-b540-28d967697d9d] | Oct 01 12:22 | |
| -viera/#techrights-Tux Machines: Links 1/10/2019: Linux 5.4 RC1, WordPress 5.3 Beta 2, 4MLinux 31.0 Beta, LFS 9.0 http://techrights.org/2019/10/01/linux-5-4-rc1/ [https://pleroma.site/objects/08dd28f3-d4b9-4e5e-ae80-adf9b08456b1] | Oct 01 12:34 | |
| -viera/#techrights-Tux Machines: Today in Techrights http://www.tuxmachines.org/node/128739 [https://pleroma.site/objects/61a9ba22-3d0c-497e-8afc-c0d09d1ff691] | Oct 01 12:37 | |
| -viera/#techrights-Tux Machines: GNOME 3.34 is now managed using systemd http://www.tuxmachines.org/node/128740 [https://pleroma.site/objects/8cdafc5f-f796-4765-8cab-b8e4f57678ee] | Oct 01 13:43 | |
| -viera/#techrights-Tux Machines: Games: Stardock CEO, MegaSphere, Steam, SCS Software and More http://www.tuxmachines.org/node/128741 [https://pleroma.site/objects/f665f7fa-c6ca-46a4-bc2b-533854454293] | Oct 01 13:57 | |
| MinceR | here's something the FSF could do to become relevant again: stop pretending that systemd supports the freedoms of its users | Oct 01 14:00 |
| r_schestowitz | that would upset IBM | Oct 01 14:01 |
| r_schestowitz | and make another enemy | Oct 01 14:01 |
| r_schestowitz | [13:43] [Notice] -viera to #techrights- Tux Machines: GNOME 3.34 is now managed using systemd http://www.tuxmachines.org/node/128740 [https://pleroma.site/objects/8cdafc5f-f796-4765-8cab-b8e4f57678ee] | Oct 01 14:01 |
| -TechrightsBot-tr/#techrights-www.tuxmachines.org | GNOME 3.34 is now managed using systemd | Tux Machines | Oct 01 14:01 | |
| -TechrightsBot-tr/#techrights-pleroma.site | Pleroma | Oct 01 14:01 | |
| r_schestowitz | https://blogs.gnome.org/benzea/2019/10/01/gnome-3-34-is-now-managed-using-systemd/ | Oct 01 14:03 |
| -TechrightsBot-tr/#techrights-blogs.gnome.org | GNOME 3.34 is now managed using systemd – Benjamin Berg | Oct 01 14:03 | |
| r_schestowitz | MinceR: we speak more about these issues over time | Oct 01 14:04 |
| r_schestowitz | but gently | Oct 01 14:04 |
| MinceR | IBM is already an enemy to the free software community | Oct 01 14:05 |
| MinceR | regardless of whether that community recognizes this | Oct 01 14:05 |
| MinceR | and regardless of whether the FSF still wants to stand with free software or not | Oct 01 14:05 |
| r_schestowitz | it always was | Oct 01 14:05 |
| MinceR | with RH, they're even more so | Oct 01 14:05 |
| r_schestowitz | "Linux" was its darling | Oct 01 14:05 |
| r_schestowitz | it doesn;'t like to talk about GNU and GPL | Oct 01 14:05 |
| MinceR | also, RMS forgot to ask microsoft to stop extorting and suing Linux-based device vendors | Oct 01 14:11 |
| -viera/#techrights-Tux Machines: Programming: Eclipse MicroProfile, Python and Qt http://www.tuxmachines.org/node/128743 [https://pleroma.site/objects/61268202-5862-44a8-b134-c29bff358c49] | Oct 01 14:29 | |
| -viera/#techrights-Tux Machines: today's howtos http://www.tuxmachines.org/node/128744 [https://pleroma.site/objects/cce70d2d-92e3-4da0-a889-d073834c3806] | Oct 01 14:30 | |
| r_schestowitz | maybe left out | Oct 01 14:32 |
| r_schestowitz | but he rarely brought up this subject | Oct 01 14:32 |
| r_schestowitz | https://www.redhat.com/sysadmin/replacing-rclocal-systemd | Oct 01 14:44 |
| -TechrightsBot-tr/#techrights-www.redhat.com | Replacing rc.local in systemd Linux systems | Enable Sysadmin | Oct 01 14:44 | |
| r_schestowitz | (today) | Oct 01 14:44 |
| XRevan86 | schestowitz: A lengthy post about a trivial task. | Oct 01 14:50 |
| r_schestowitz | like systemd to init | Oct 01 14:51 |
| XRevan86 | > This despite the fact that the systemd documentation mentions the use of a "generator" that generates systemd services from an rc.local file if one exists. (That seems to be a good way as any to enforce deprecation—make it not work.) | Oct 01 14:51 |
| r_schestowitz | over 1 ml lines of code | Oct 01 14:51 |
| XRevan86 | > redhat.com | Oct 01 14:51 |
| -viera/#techrights-Tux Machines: Fedora Join is trying a new people focused workflow for newcomers http://www.tuxmachines.org/node/128745 [https://pleroma.site/objects/a3cac5db-ff66-4abf-8734-bfe49663199b] | Oct 01 14:53 | |
| XRevan86 | Reportedly systemd-rc-local-generator does work. But RHEL could break or remove it. | Oct 01 14:56 |
| XRevan86 | I find it funny that a blog post on redhat.com doesn't try to make an informed statement about this %). | Oct 01 14:57 |
| tyil | r_schestowitz: is gnome hard depending on systemd again | Oct 01 14:59 |
| r_schestowitz | don't know | Oct 01 14:59 |
| r_schestowitz | what about mono? | Oct 01 14:59 |
| tyil | you linked https://blogs.gnome.org/benzea/2019/10/01/gnome-3-34-is-now-managed-using-systemd/, which sounds by the title that gnome devs are once more hard-depending on systemd features | Oct 01 15:00 |
| -TechrightsBot-tr/#techrights-blogs.gnome.org | GNOME 3.34 is now managed using systemd – Benjamin Berg | Oct 01 15:00 | |
| -viera/#techrights-Tux Machines: Intel: OSPray, Clear Linux, FSP and Performance http://www.tuxmachines.org/node/128747 [https://pleroma.site/objects/c6f35289-82aa-482d-8b4e-f8034a5e0465] | Oct 01 15:00 | |
| r_schestowitz | maybe they are redhat (ibm) devs | Oct 01 15:01 |
| tyil | and skimming through it, it does seem like gnome devs are caring less and less about writing good software | Oct 01 15:01 |
| r_schestowitz | many gnome people are | Oct 01 15:01 |
| XRevan86 | https://github.com/systemd/systemd/pull/12571#issuecomment-494830021 | Oct 01 15:02 |
| -TechrightsBot-tr/#techrights-Drop support for /usr/sbin/halt.local by mbiebl · Pull Request #12571 · systemd/systemd · GitHub | Oct 01 15:02 | |
| r_schestowitz | maybe the future of "LIIINUX" is people opening chromium and using 'cloud' 'apps' | Oct 01 15:02 |
| tyil | one day people will want to migrate away from systemd, and most of the distros will be proper fucked | Oct 01 15:02 |
| r_schestowitz | or they could work to repair a monstrous buggy thing that's a systemd fork | Oct 01 15:03 |
| tyil | I personally would've preferred software to not hard depend on a single init system | Oct 01 15:04 |
| r_schestowitz | it's not an init system | Oct 01 15:04 |
| tyil | and systemd proponents to have an honest discussion on init for once | Oct 01 15:04 |
| r_schestowitz | it's everything now (almost) | Oct 01 15:04 |
| r_schestowitz | (not yet) | Oct 01 15:04 |
| XRevan86 | tyil, schestowitz: Depends on whether they left a fallback. | Oct 01 15:04 |
| XRevan86 | The blog post itself doesn't state that GNOME stops supporting working without systemd. | Oct 01 15:05 |
| tyil | r_schestowitz: systemd support for most distros was chosen with a focus on just init | Oct 01 15:05 |
| tyil | XRevan86: they did that ages ago already | Oct 01 15:05 |
| XRevan86 | But that for its daemons it will use a --user instance of systemd. | Oct 01 15:05 |
| tyil | r_schestowitz: but in every discussion, the systemd fanboys set the narrative that the ONLY other option was sysv | Oct 01 15:05 |
| XRevan86 | tyil: I've heard it runs fine on elogind. | Oct 01 15:06 |
| -viera/#techrights-Tux Machines: Canonical Outs Major Linux Kernel Security Patch for Ubuntu 18.04 and 16.04 LTS http://www.tuxmachines.org/node/128746 [https://pleroma.site/objects/e3ef09ea-5ad5-46c0-baa5-2479d5f06e0a] | Oct 01 15:06 | |
| tyil | which had to be created because gnome didn't support anything but a systemd interface | Oct 01 15:06 |
| XRevan86 | Upstart had a user running instance, Ubuntu used it extensively. | Oct 01 15:06 |
| XRevan86 | So that's kind of the root of systemd --user | Oct 01 15:07 |
| tyil | I prefer using stable and sane software, so systemd is masked from my systems | Oct 01 15:08 |
| scientes | XRevan86, actually | Oct 01 15:08 |
| scientes | --user came from Tizen | Oct 01 15:08 |
| tyil | all ideas in systemd came from other systems, which all did a better job of implementing said features :') | Oct 01 15:08 |
| XRevan86 | s/root/intermediate part of the chain before systems/ | Oct 01 15:08 |
| scientes | tyil, upstart sucked | Oct 01 15:09 |
| XRevan86 | * systemd | Oct 01 15:09 |
| scientes | launchd was the superior init | Oct 01 15:09 |
| XRevan86 | scientes: With services in XML? | Oct 01 15:09 |
| tyil | openrc is my preferred init, but launchd is objectively a good init, especially compared to the horror that is systemd | Oct 01 15:09 |
| *scientes tired of people whining and arguing when they don't know much | Oct 01 15:09 | |
| tyil | my main issue is that the systemd fanatics have never had an honest discussion as to why systemd is supposedly better than alternatives, and big projects (such as gnome) are forcing distros and users to use objectively garbage software | Oct 01 15:10 |
| XRevan86 | tyil: elogind also proves that the login1 D-Bus API doesn't actually need systemd, and it all boils down to that there's no alternative implementation after LoginKit and ConsoleKit2 died out. | Oct 01 15:12 |
| tyil | moot points | Oct 01 15:12 |
| tyil | elogind was made just so people can avoid most of systemd's cancer, it's a workaround to a rather big problem | Oct 01 15:13 |
| XRevan86 | tyil: ConsoleKit2 being dead also leads to there being no alive implementation of ConsoleKit API… | Oct 01 15:13 |
| scientes | tyil, they actually do all the time | Oct 01 15:13 |
| scientes | you just are not listening | Oct 01 15:13 |
| tyil | scientes: sure thing | Oct 01 15:13 |
| tyil | that's why they always pretend there's only systemd and sysv | Oct 01 15:13 |
| tyil | I've read plenty of threads and discussed the issue with plenty of debian and arch devs | Oct 01 15:14 |
| scientes | you just don't like change | Oct 01 15:14 |
| *XRevan86 doesn't want to defend systemd, but I'm just not sure what GNOME is supposed to implement aside from Login1 | Oct 01 15:14 | |
| scientes | and don't know what the problems are | Oct 01 15:14 |
| tyil | I don't, no, especially not when the "change" is a massive downgrade in stability | Oct 01 15:14 |
| tyil | and security | Oct 01 15:14 |
| scientes | you have no idea what you are talking about | Oct 01 15:14 |
| tyil | ofcourse not, good thing you are completely unable to explain it and can only say "n-no, you are WRONG" | Oct 01 15:15 |
| scientes | "I know you are, but what am I." | Oct 01 15:15 |
| scientes | "I know you are, but what am I?" | Oct 01 15:15 |
| tyil | >making retarded quotes that have no bearing on the conversation instead of answering a question | Oct 01 15:15 |
| tyil | ok buddy | Oct 01 15:15 |
| tyil | you do you :) | Oct 01 15:15 |
| scientes | where is the question mark? | Oct 01 15:16 |
| tyil | I guess I can stand by my argument that thus far, no systemd fanboy has been able to have an honest conversation | Oct 01 15:16 |
| scientes | you aren't listening | Oct 01 15:16 |
| *XRevan86 will go get some food. | Oct 01 15:17 | |
| tyil | are you just going to repeat that whenever you have no answers? | Oct 01 15:17 |
| scientes | You don't even know what data structure systemd is based on | Oct 01 15:17 |
| tyil | I mean, I shouldn't expect anything from a systemd fanboy | Oct 01 15:17 |
| scientes | tyil, is that a question? | Oct 01 15:17 |
| scientes | tyil, are you talking to somebody? | Oct 01 15:17 |
| tyil | I understand it's hard for you to not be able to "win" a discussion with stupid remarks, scientes, but please try to keep up | Oct 01 15:18 |
| scientes | I don't see any conversation | Oct 01 15:18 |
| scientes | and again "I know you are, but what am I?" | Oct 01 15:18 |
| tyil | ofcourse not, you ignore everything that doesn't fit your narrative | Oct 01 15:18 |
| scientes | look in the mirror | Oct 01 15:18 |
| tyil | as is typical in these discussions with a systemd fanboy | Oct 01 15:18 |
| scientes | tyil, seriously, you haven't made a single technical point | Oct 01 15:19 |
| tyil | ok buddy | Oct 01 15:19 |
| tyil | keep ignoring literally everything I say and pretend you're enlightened | Oct 01 15:19 |
| scientes | once you make a technical point, I will answer it | Oct 01 15:19 |
| <--balrog has quit (Quit: Bye) | Oct 01 15:19 | |
| scientes | "I know you are, but what am I?" | Oct 01 15:19 |
| scientes | tyil, what have you said? | Oct 01 15:19 |
| scientes | You haven't said anything. | Oct 01 15:20 |
| tyil | hmm, you've repeated your silly retarded remark 4 times now | Oct 01 15:20 |
| tyil | are you honestly thinking just repeating stupid shit over and over is "winning" an argument? | Oct 01 15:20 |
| scientes | I haven't tried to win an argument. | Oct 01 15:20 |
| scientes | I am waiting for you to make an argument. | Oct 01 15:20 |
| tyil | you could read the scrollback for that | Oct 01 15:20 |
| scientes | You haven't made an argument yet. | Oct 01 15:21 |
| XRevan86 | I'll just say that I find hardcoding on systemd a bad idea, because portability is good. | Oct 01 15:21 |
| scientes | just baseless allegations | Oct 01 15:21 |
| tyil | ok buddy | Oct 01 15:21 |
| tyil | you just keep repeating yourself over and over then | Oct 01 15:21 |
| tyil | you will "win" the discussion eventually, I'm sure! | Oct 01 15:21 |
| scientes | XRevan86, but you can't make that argument until you know the problems it solves | Oct 01 15:21 |
| XRevan86 | But if we get back to logind/elogind, what is the alternative that GNOME should have supported as well? | Oct 01 15:21 |
| scientes | logind supports multi-seat | Oct 01 15:22 |
| scientes | before that was impossible, for years | Oct 01 15:22 |
| scientes | tyil, i have repeatedly said that I am not trying to win any argument | Oct 01 15:22 |
| scientes | you are taking me for a straw man | Oct 01 15:22 |
| tyil | whatever you need to tell yourself to "win" the discussion in your mind, scientes | Oct 01 15:22 |
| scientes | I'm still waiting for an argument to be made. | Oct 01 15:22 |
| tyil | there's no discussion to be had with someone like you | Oct 01 15:22 |
| scientes | there is no discussion | Oct 01 15:22 |
| scientes | because you haven't said anything substansial | Oct 01 15:23 |
| tyil | indeed, you're ignoring everything that doesn't fit your narrative and then repeat yourself over and over to look smart | Oct 01 15:23 |
| scientes | ignored.... | Oct 01 15:23 |
| scientes | /ignore tyril | Oct 01 15:23 |
| tyil | "h-he doesn't fall for my obvious ploy, better ignore him quickly!!" | Oct 01 15:23 |
| tyil | ok buddy | Oct 01 15:23 |
| scientes | Proverbs 26:5 | Oct 01 15:23 |
| -->balrog (~balrog@unaffiliated/balrog) has joined #techrights | Oct 01 15:25 | |
| -viera/#techrights-Tux Machines: How to use Slax Linux? A Portable Linux distribution that doesn’t require installation http://www.tuxmachines.org/node/128748 [https://pleroma.site/objects/2f84507f-e011-4290-88d8-ed77a42ae03e] | Oct 01 15:26 | |
| XRevan86 | (14:10:44) tyil: my main issue is that the systemd fanatics have never had an honest discussion as to why systemd is supposedly better than alternatives, and big projects (such as gnome) are forcing distros and users to use objectively garbage software | Oct 01 15:28 |
| XRevan86 | (14:13:34) scientes: tyil, they actually do all the time | Oct 01 15:28 |
| XRevan86 | (14:13:37) scientes: you just are not listening | Oct 01 15:28 |
| XRevan86 | That's how your arguing started, right? | Oct 01 15:28 |
| tyil | seems so, yes | Oct 01 15:28 |
| scientes | http://0pointer.de/blog/projects/systemd.html | Oct 01 15:29 |
| -TechrightsBot-tr/#techrights-0pointer.de | Rethinking PID 1 | Oct 01 15:29 | |
| tyil | scientes seems to be hellbent on ignoring everything he dislikes, and just spam whatever he thinks makes him look smart, tho | Oct 01 15:29 |
| tyil | kind of a sad way to remove discussion from a channel | Oct 01 15:30 |
| scientes | insulting people is a great way to get them to explain their position /sarcasm | Oct 01 15:30 |
| tyil | I only came in here originally to inform about a broken https configuration | Oct 01 15:30 |
| r_schestowitz | we'll sort if out when upgrading | Oct 01 15:30 |
| tyil | scientes: indeed, so I have no clue why you went on the path of calling everyone with differing opinions unknowledged | Oct 01 15:31 |
| r_schestowitz | *it | Oct 01 15:31 |
| XRevan86 | scientes: *You* made it personal first though. | Oct 01 15:31 |
| -viera/#techrights-Tux Machines: zfs-0.8.2 releases with support for 2.6.32 – 5.3 Linux kernels and major bug fixes http://www.tuxmachines.org/node/128749 [https://pleroma.site/objects/b703a86d-112e-4b79-b522-498d002a89fb] | Oct 01 15:31 | |
| -viera/#techrights-Tux Machines: Programming Leftovers http://www.tuxmachines.org/node/128750 [https://pleroma.site/objects/06df80a6-ed0b-4935-b337-67b0a54232d7] | Oct 01 15:32 | |
| *XRevan86 re-reads. | Oct 01 15:34 | |
| XRevan86 | scientes: Did you see "systemd fanatics have never had an honest discussion as to why systemd is supposedly better than alternatives" as a reply to you saying that "upstart sucked; launchd was the superior init"? | Oct 01 15:35 |
| XRevan86 | Seemingly this escalated over nothing. | Oct 01 15:35 |
| scientes | I kept saying there was nothing | Oct 01 15:36 |
| scientes | because the critics generally are not familiar with the issues | Oct 01 15:36 |
| XRevan86 | scientes: tyil's argument is the same except 180° | Oct 01 15:36 |
| scientes | except I don't believe him | Oct 01 15:37 |
| scientes | I think he just wants an argument | Oct 01 15:37 |
| tyil | if you're unwilling to explain the issues that I'm apparently unaware of while managing a couple hundred servers, please do | Oct 01 15:37 |
| tyil | but instead you're going out of your way to tell me I don't understand anything, I don't read, whatever you're saying | Oct 01 15:37 |
| scientes | https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xpAvcGcEc0k | Oct 01 15:38 |
| -TechrightsBot-tr/#techrights-Argument - YouTube | Oct 01 15:38 | |
| tyil | clearly you're incapable of having an argument | Oct 01 15:38 |
| tyil | or discussion, even | Oct 01 15:38 |
| XRevan86 | scientes: What's your opinion on MinceR's view on systemd? | Oct 01 15:38 |
| tyil | if you're just going to conclude everyone is wrong at the start, then insult their knowledge, and start just repeating whatever it is you think makes you smart | Oct 01 15:38 |
| tyil | all I wanted was you to explain me the things I supposedly can't comprehend with my 0 knowledge on computers, but whatever | Oct 01 15:39 |
| tyil | I'm done with trying to get you to talk | Oct 01 15:39 |
| tyil | all I'm getting are petty remarks or attempts at looking enlightened | Oct 01 15:40 |
| XRevan86 | tyil: Isn't it a petty remark to claim from the start that those who defend systemd are apriori incapable of having an honest conversations? | Oct 01 15:41 |
| scientes | hehe, Kant | Oct 01 15:41 |
| tyil | that's a conclusion I've reached from reading Debian MLs, Archlinux MLs and attending talks on Systemd (one from Poettering himself) | Oct 01 15:41 |
| tyil | they *always* pretend there's only systemd and sysv | Oct 01 15:42 |
| XRevan86 | https://www.dailydot.com/wp-content/uploads/146/6e/6d78ec0c8c8eaf31.png | Oct 01 15:42 |
| tyil | but I can understand I should've worded it differently at least to make the remark less arrogant | Oct 01 15:42 |
| tyil | also, in my defense, it's not that I said they *cannot* have an honest discussion, it's just that they've never done so in public thus far when trying to push for systemd | Oct 01 15:44 |
| tyil | going by what just happened here, I see no change in that behaviour, though | Oct 01 15:45 |
| r_schestowitz | systemd might have some features and technical merit, but that's a shallow criterion | Oct 01 15:45 |
| XRevan86 | tyil: Just don't get anyone on the defensive from the get-go | Oct 01 15:45 |
| r_schestowitz | diversity seems to be a key problem, it's not made to be sufficiently modular | Oct 01 15:45 |
| XRevan86 | scientes: Don't get defensive on the get-go so easily | Oct 01 15:45 |
| scientes | r_schestowitz, lots of stuff can be disabled | Oct 01 15:46 |
| tyil | XRevan86: that comment was mostly inspired since I apparently don't know much about my system | Oct 01 15:46 |
| tyil | but alright | Oct 01 15:46 |
| tyil | I'll try :) | Oct 01 15:46 |
| tyil | r_schestowitz: if I were to pick and choose systemd features easily without requiring the entire blob of it I might've been more interested in trying out certain features only | Oct 01 15:47 |
| scientes | when an AT&T insturction has three arguments, is the destination the second argument? | Oct 01 15:47 |
| tyil | but I need all components, and then turn them off (and pray it actually doesn't depend on it in some weird way after all) to get things working | Oct 01 15:47 |
| XRevan86 | tyil, scientes: A lot of instance blocks on the Fediverse happen on similiar grounds. | Oct 01 15:48 |
| XRevan86 | I haven't had a conversation there in years. | Oct 01 15:48 |
| XRevan86 | Those who agree put a like, those who disagree block me. | Oct 01 15:48 |
| tyil | XRevan86: any admin that blocks an instance over disagreement is not an instance I care about | Oct 01 15:48 |
| tyil | so they're free to turn themselves into a bubble of agreement | Oct 01 15:48 |
| scientes | XRevan86, the base of systemd is a DAG of dependancies | Oct 01 15:49 |
| scientes | this is the only way that makes any sense | Oct 01 15:49 |
| scientes | but if you don't know what a DAG is, you are not qualified to discuss it | Oct 01 15:49 |
| XRevan86 | scientes: A directed acyclic graph? | Oct 01 15:49 |
| scientes | yes | Oct 01 15:49 |
| XRevan86 | tyil: In the end there's a big chunk of the network that I completely don't understand and which apparently hates my guts. | Oct 01 15:52 |
| XRevan86 | (not my guts personally, just of "my kind") | Oct 01 15:52 |
| tyil | XRevan86: same, but nobody on that side is willing to explain their positions | Oct 01 15:52 |
| scientes | again, is the second argument the destination? | Oct 01 15:52 |
| scientes | vpmsumd$Xm,$IN,$H# H.hi·H.lo+H.lo·H.hi | Oct 01 15:52 |
| scientes | cause that is super confusing | Oct 01 15:52 |
| tyil | they just block (either personally, or as an instance block) whenever you question their stance | Oct 01 15:52 |
| scientes | this is why i hate assembly | Oct 01 15:52 |
| XRevan86 | tyil: yes | Oct 01 15:53 |
| scientes | you spend have the time with stupid issues | Oct 01 15:53 |
| scientes | or more than half | Oct 01 15:53 |
| tyil | doesn't make me stop asking questions, tho :'D | Oct 01 15:53 |
| scientes | tyil, did you read that blog post? | Oct 01 15:53 |
| scientes | do you know what a DAG is? | Oct 01 15:53 |
| tyil | scientes: I do, and even if I didn't, the answer is 1 search query away, so it's kinda stupid to make that the "terms" of being able to discuss things with you | Oct 01 15:54 |
| tyil | you're just making up arbitrary silly rules to be *allowed* to discuss things with you | Oct 01 15:54 |
| scientes | its not 1 search query away | Oct 01 15:54 |
| *scientes is allowed to ignore people | Oct 01 15:54 | |
| tyil | pretty much every abbreviation is 1 search query away, and a wikipedia search in addition will tell you everything you need to know about the actual use of any abbreviation | Oct 01 15:54 |
| scientes | *allowed* | Oct 01 15:55 |
| tyil | yes, but that doesn't make you a decent human being :) | Oct 01 15:55 |
| scientes | who are you to think your (non-) points are SOOO important? | Oct 01 15:55 |
| tyil | I'm also not sure why you want to start up drama again, when XRevan86 just tried to settle the dust | Oct 01 15:55 |
| XRevan86 | Proverbs 22:4 | Oct 01 15:56 |
| tyil | you wanted a discussion, I raise my personal issues agaisnt systemd, it doesn't really matter if you think those are born out of stupidity or anything else, those are issues I have with systemd, hence I raise them when someone wants issues | Oct 01 15:57 |
| tyil | that you don't consider them valid or whatever doesn't change the fact that I find those to be issues with systemd | Oct 01 15:57 |
| XRevan86 | As an atheist those proverbs just look like "inspirational quotes" but with a moral kick | Oct 01 15:57 |
| scientes | that is all they are | Oct 01 15:57 |
| scientes | Upset people get to pull the water wagon. :) | Oct 01 15:58 |
| XRevan86 | scientes: You really like that saying I see %) | Oct 01 15:59 |
| scientes | I don't think I've come across that thought before | Oct 01 15:59 |
| scientes | so it stuck | Oct 01 16:00 |
| scientes | I also like "you can't juice a turnip" | Oct 01 16:00 |
| scientes | because i see so many fools that try | Oct 01 16:00 |
| XRevan86 | scientes: It's one single Russian proverb that I don't completely get and you loved it %) | Oct 01 16:00 |
| scientes | here is an explication | Oct 01 16:03 |
| scientes | with the statue in St Petersberg | Oct 01 16:03 |
| scientes | https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M5hpxgfCD_Y | Oct 01 16:03 |
| -TechrightsBot-tr/#techrights-RU Upset LOL? - YouTube | Oct 01 16:03 | |
| XRevan86 | scientes: The (evidental) history of the proverb doesn't really match its contemporary use. | Oct 01 16:05 |
| XRevan86 | Which isn't all that surprising for proverbs. | Oct 01 16:06 |
| -->IP2Innovate (5e6bf29e@94.107.242.158) has joined #techrights | Oct 01 16:07 | |
| r_schestowitz | hi IP2Innovate | Oct 01 16:08 |
| r_schestowitz | any new report? | Oct 01 16:08 |
| IP2Innovate | Industry calls on upcoming EU Commissioner for Internal Market to bring greater balance to Europe’s patent legal system and adapt it to the digital age | Oct 01 16:09 |
| IP2Innovate | Brussels, 1 October 2019 | Oct 01 16:09 |
| IP2Innovate | Ahead of the parliamentary hearing of the EU Commissioner-designate for the Internal Market Sylvie Goulard, the cross-sector industry coalition IP2Innovate sent a letter to the Commissioner-designate urging her to take steps as part of her mission to bring balance to Europe’s patent system to ensure it supports the region’s digital growth | Oct 01 16:09 |
| IP2Innovate | ambitions and enhances competitiveness in critical technology sectors. | Oct 01 16:09 |
| IP2Innovate | Commission President-elect Ursula von der Leyen in her mission letter to Goulard asked her to “take a close look at [EU’s] intellectual property regime to ensure that it is coherent, is fit for the digital age and supports our competitiveness”. According to IP2Innovate, an effective and balanced patent legal system is an important | Oct 01 16:09 |
| IP2Innovate | prerequisite for Europe to be able to compete globally in the next frontier of technologies, such as blockchain and artificial intelligence. Unfortunately, the experience of IP2Innovate member companies, and many other European innovators, is that Europe’s patent system presently lacks this necessary balance, making it harder for companies to | Oct 01 16:09 |
| IP2Innovate | scale up and bring new products to market rapidly. | Oct 01 16:09 |
| IP2Innovate | “In the digital age, products are increasingly complex, often covered by thousands of patents, which make them constantly subject to patent disputes”, IP2Innovate said in its letter to the Commissioner-designate. “Because the practice of many European courts is to issue automatic injunctions upon a finding of infringement, without considering | Oct 01 16:09 |
| IP2Innovate | a remedy that could be more proportionate, an accidental infringement of just one patent among many others can result in removing from the market a product necessary to access digital goods or services”. | Oct 01 16:09 |
| IP2Innovate | According to IP2Innovate, this situation makes Europe more and more attractive to Patent Assertion Entities (PAEs), also known as “patent trolls”, who buy up patents only to assert them against innovative companies, including SMEs, and extract high settlement. These entities increasingly target the ICT-industry, central to growth and innovation | Oct 01 16:09 |
| IP2Innovate | across many industries. | Oct 01 16:09 |
| IP2Innovate | Under the leadership of Commissioner-designate Goulard, IP2Innovate calls on the European Commission to take concrete steps to bring greater balance to Europe’s patent legal system to support the region’s digital growth ambitions and secure its competitiveness in critical technology sectors. | Oct 01 16:09 |
| IP2Innovate | Read the full letter here: http://www.ip2innovate.eu/wp-content/uploads/2019/10/IP2Innovate_Congratulations-letter-to-Commissioner-designate-Goulard_190919.pdf | Oct 01 16:09 |
| IP2Innovate | For further information, please contact: | Oct 01 16:09 |
| IP2Innovate | Patrick Oliver | Oct 01 16:09 |
| IP2Innovate | Executive Director, IP2Innovate | Oct 01 16:09 |
| IP2Innovate | Email: contact@ip2innovate.eu | Oct 01 16:09 |
| IP2Innovate | Mobile: +32-477-597065 | Oct 01 16:09 |
| scientes | holy moley | Oct 01 16:09 |
| r_schestowitz | yeah | Oct 01 16:09 |
| r_schestowitz | I may need to flatten it | Oct 01 16:10 |
| scientes | did Cathrine the Great really like having sex with large animals? | Oct 01 16:10 |
| scientes | hahahaha | Oct 01 16:10 |
| r_schestowitz | is there a URL with this press release in it? | Oct 01 16:10 |
| XRevan86 | scientes: I have to admit the history classes left that out leaving me uneducated on the matter | Oct 01 16:11 |
| IP2Innovate | http://www.ip2innovate.eu/wp-content/uploads/2019/10/IP2I-press-release-of-1-October.pdf | Oct 01 16:11 |
| IP2Innovate | http://www.ip2innovate.eu/europes-patent-system-needs-to-be-adapted-to-the-digital-age-to-support-europes-competitiveness-industry-calls-on-upcoming-eu-commissioner-for-internal-market-to-bring-greater-balan/ | Oct 01 16:11 |
| -TechrightsBot-tr/#techrights-www.ip2innovate.eu | Industry calls on upcoming EU Commissioner for Internal Market to bring greater balance to Europe’s patent legal system and adapt it to the digital age | IP2Innovate | Oct 01 16:11 | |
| r_schestowitz | thank you | Oct 01 16:11 |
| scientes | this says it isn't true https://www.straightdope.com/columns/read/100/is-it-true-about-catherine-the-great-and-the-horse/ | Oct 01 16:12 |
| <--IP2Innovate has quit (Remote host closed the connection) | Oct 01 16:12 | |
| r_schestowitz | I might write about it later today | Oct 01 16:12 |
| -TechrightsBot-tr/#techrights-www.straightdope.com | Is it true about Catherine the Great and the horse? – The Straight Dope | Oct 01 16:12 | |
| scientes | "The story about Catherine’s alleged yen for horses probably has its roots in the fact that she had an active and unusually public sex life. She had numerous lovers throughout her long reign, one of whom, Grigori Potemkin, procured young men for her after their own relationship cooled. " | Oct 01 16:12 |
| XRevan86 | https://ru.wikipedia.org/wiki/Список_мужчин_Екатерины_II | Oct 01 16:13 |
| -TechrightsBot-tr/#techrights-ru.wikipedia.org | Список мужчин Екатерины II — Википедия | Oct 01 16:13 | |
| XRevan86 | "A list of men of Cathrine the Great" | Oct 01 16:13 |
| XRevan86 | A separate article | Oct 01 16:13 |
| scientes | hehehehehe | Oct 01 16:13 |
| scientes | or Cathrine II | Oct 01 16:14 |
| XRevan86 | Yea, "Great" as an epithet is very generic. | Oct 01 16:15 |
| *XRevan86 generally tries not to use it. | Oct 01 16:15 | |
| scientes | I was just noting it wasn't part of the title | Oct 01 16:15 |
| XRevan86 | it's not a title, yes | Oct 01 16:16 |
| scientes | title of the wikipedia article... | Oct 01 16:16 |
| XRevan86 | ah | Oct 01 16:16 |
| XRevan86 | My mind already went to the realm of "what if there are people who think that Ivan IV had Grozny/"Terrible" in the job description" :D | Oct 01 16:17 |
| *XRevan86 now thinks about the word "terrible". | Oct 01 16:19 | |
| XRevan86 | I mainly think of it to mean very bad, but it is from the word "terror". | Oct 01 16:20 |
| XRevan86 | and in that more literal sense it makes sense as a translation for Грозный | Oct 01 16:21 |
| XRevan86 | ~"formidable" | Oct 01 16:21 |
| scientes | Inconsolable | Oct 01 16:21 |
| scientes | Ferocious | Oct 01 16:21 |
| scientes | Ivan IV the Terrorist :) | Oct 01 16:22 |
| XRevan86 | Inconsolable – definitely not that | Oct 01 16:22 |
| XRevan86 | Ferocious – that's more about doing something than making an impression, | Oct 01 16:23 |
| XRevan86 | (which works as an epithet for Ivan IV too, but not as a translation of the existing one) | Oct 01 16:23 |
| XRevan86 | Dangerous maybe (: | Oct 01 16:25 |
| -viera/#techrights-Tux Machines: Daniel Martin Gomez: Hacking GNU for the first time http://www.tuxmachines.org/node/128751 [https://pleroma.site/objects/98afe2b6-47ac-47f0-ba3a-71f7e1b6e6b4] | Oct 01 16:29 | |
| -viera/#techrights-Tux Machines: Linux Mint Debian Edition 4 to Be Dubbed "Debbie," New Linux Mint Logo Unveiled http://www.tuxmachines.org/node/128752 [https://pleroma.site/objects/0bf456d1-07e9-4dfd-ac84-982b379618da] | Oct 01 16:30 | |
| -viera/#techrights-Tux Machines: Stable kernels 5.3.2, 5.2.18, and 4.19.76 http://www.tuxmachines.org/node/128753 [https://pleroma.site/objects/19d91c7c-2dec-4745-bd2f-74076259d993] | Oct 01 16:31 | |
| -viera/#techrights-Tux Machines: #Android Leftovers http://www.tuxmachines.org/node/128754 [https://pleroma.site/objects/a8fd238e-19b5-4775-8ff1-179b82e763dc] | Oct 01 16:33 | |
| scientes | XRevan86, i mean that his perchance for violence was inconsolable | Oct 01 16:35 |
| scientes | *pencance | Oct 01 16:35 |
| scientes | uggh spelling | Oct 01 16:35 |
| scientes | inclination towards | Oct 01 16:35 |
| scientes | mercyless | Oct 01 16:35 |
| scientes | *merciless | Oct 01 16:35 |
| -viera/#techrights-Tux Machines: Graphics Leftovers http://www.tuxmachines.org/node/128755 [https://pleroma.site/objects/6fa267ba-4a89-4fa1-839f-60b4dcf1fed5] | Oct 01 16:39 | |
| XRevan86 | Безжалостный? nah | Oct 01 16:40 |
| -viera/#techrights-Tux Machines: Devices: Amlogic, Ibase, Atomic Pi and Teclast http://www.tuxmachines.org/node/128756 [https://pleroma.site/objects/48d25e59-e172-4af7-b82d-5f3451515585] | Oct 01 16:44 | |
| -viera/#techrights-Tux Machines: Debian Reports/Posts From Mike Gabriel, Ben Hutchings, Abhijith PA and Norbert Preining http://www.tuxmachines.org/node/128757 [https://pleroma.site/objects/61567499-2703-48ad-a66f-2e5c426000f8] | Oct 01 16:49 | |
| MinceR | https://i.redd.it/ljepf58t3x631.jpg | Oct 01 17:06 |
| MinceR | https://pics.me.me/famous-russians-peter-the-great-ivan-the-terrible-anatoly-not-59183157.png | Oct 01 17:07 |
| MinceR | in http://techrights.org/2019/09/30/red-hat-under-ibm/ | Oct 01 17:11 |
| -TechrightsBot-tr/#techrights-techrights.org | Red Hat is Not the Company You Once Knew | Techrights | Oct 01 17:11 | |
| MinceR | "It’s no secret that systemd develops have also applied for (and received) patents." | Oct 01 17:11 |
| MinceR | "develops" should probably be "developers" | Oct 01 17:11 |
| XRevan86 | Who's this Anatoly? | Oct 01 17:12 |
| XRevan86 | Oh, an HBO’s Chernobyl character. | Oct 01 17:17 |
| MinceR | also a real world character | Oct 01 17:22 |
| XRevan86 | https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anatoly_Dyatlov indeed | Oct 01 17:23 |
| -TechrightsBot-tr/#techrights-en.wikipedia.org | Anatoly Dyatlov - Wikipedia | Oct 01 17:23 | |
| XRevan86 | > По словам Дятлова, ближе к середине ночи он убедился в разрушении реактора после обнаружения на территории станции реакторного графита. Эти сведения подтверждаются воспоминаниями одного из начальников смены четверто | Oct 01 17:31 |
| XRevan86 | го энергоблока Юрия Трегуба. Согласно Дятлову, ночью он сообщал о разрушении реактора, но его слова были проигнорированы. | Oct 01 17:31 |
| XRevan86 | that kind of contradicts the graphite on the ground meme I found | Oct 01 17:32 |
| XRevan86 | Stupid Wikipedia | Oct 01 17:32 |
| scientes | XRevan86, that is a stupid movie | Oct 01 17:32 |
| scientes | they are just pissed that Rusatom is signing agreements with Iran and Bolivia | Oct 01 17:32 |
| MinceR | lol | Oct 01 17:36 |
| r_schestowitz | https://twitter.com/zoobab/status/1178663360075894784 | Oct 01 17:57 |
| -TechrightsBot-tr/#techrights-@zoobab: IBM Belinda Gascoyne lobbying for software patents once again at WIPO https://t.co/0TaWvf8sBy | Oct 01 17:57 | |
| -TechrightsBot-tr/#techrights--> www.wipo.int | WIPO Conversation on Intellectual Property and Artificial Intelligence (September 27, 2019) | Oct 01 17:57 | |
| XRevan86 | https://wayfire.org/ | Oct 01 18:03 |
| -TechrightsBot-tr/#techrights-wayfire.org | Wayfire | Oct 01 18:03 | |
| <--a1batross (f99f96a489@gateway/shell/jabberfr/x-jfsyyyspnpalewto) has left #techrights | Oct 01 18:09 | |
| -->a1batross (f99f96a489@gateway/shell/jabberfr/x-nlpolpqhuywvrjef) has joined #techrights | Oct 01 18:12 | |
| MinceR | does it work without *logind APIs? does it support server-side decorations? | Oct 01 18:22 |
| r_schestowitz | https://www.reddit.com/r/FreeAsInFreedom/comments/dbuzf2/what_stallman_wants/ | Oct 01 18:49 |
| -TechrightsBot-tr/#techrights-www.reddit.com | What Stallman wants : FreeAsInFreedom | Oct 01 18:49 | |
| r_schestowitz | https://www.reddit.com/r/StallmanWasRight/comments/dbusga/what_stallman_wants/ | Oct 01 18:49 |
| -TechrightsBot-tr/#techrights-www.reddit.com | What Stallman wants : StallmanWasRight | Oct 01 18:49 | |
| -viera/#techrights-Tux Machines: Red Hat Leftovers http://www.tuxmachines.org/node/128758 [https://pleroma.site/objects/51533b01-edaa-4534-9baa-b0b846262c7c] | Oct 01 18:58 | |
| -viera/#techrights-Tux Machines: today's howtos http://www.tuxmachines.org/node/128759 [https://pleroma.site/objects/d4bf4cf3-4639-4dee-b701-25fbfb235767] | Oct 01 19:05 | |
| -viera/#techrights-Tux Machines: LibreOffice 10/20 Logo Community Contest http://www.tuxmachines.org/node/128760 [https://pleroma.site/objects/19d74df9-167a-4dc8-bff4-68fceb06d538] | Oct 01 19:13 | |
| -viera/#techrights-Tux Machines: Programming: C, Python and GNU Guix http://www.tuxmachines.org/node/128761 [https://pleroma.site/objects/c5b30e66-0428-4ccf-ae30-e691485795af] | Oct 01 19:24 | |
| MinceR | https://full.pr0gramm.com/2019/08/29/2dbc8f9d40853a2d.jpg | Oct 01 19:29 |
| -viera/#techrights-Tux Machines: today's leftovers http://www.tuxmachines.org/node/128762 [https://pleroma.site/objects/8a385eee-2999-401a-a891-67682bb98374] | Oct 01 19:46 | |
| MinceR | (audio:important) https://vid.pr0gramm.com/2019/07/22/1f9e888fadeb29a7.mp4(ca | Oct 01 19:47 |
| XRevan86 | > Guess what? You should patch Exim again! | Oct 01 19:53 |
| XRevan86 | Now that's a title of real Journalism quality. | Oct 01 19:53 |
| scientes | hehehehe | Oct 01 19:54 |
| scientes | yeah, thats pretty good | Oct 01 19:54 |
| r_schestowitz | baiters | Oct 01 19:54 |
| scientes | not really | Oct 01 19:55 |
| scientes | it gives you enough info that you could skip directly to the patch | Oct 01 19:55 |
| scientes | the trick of bait is to not give enough info | Oct 01 19:55 |
| XRevan86 | "Guess what? There's an unattended-upgrades package in Debian that is installed by default. Yea, you're pretty much set already, we don't know why we wrote this." | Oct 01 19:56 |
| r_schestowitz | :-) | Oct 01 19:56 |
| scientes | oh thats new | Oct 01 19:56 |
| r_schestowitz | exactly | Oct 01 19:56 |
| scientes | it use to be only Ubuntu | Oct 01 19:56 |
| r_schestowitz | the title tells you what to do | Oct 01 19:56 |
| r_schestowitz | now why | Oct 01 19:56 |
| r_schestowitz | *not | Oct 01 19:56 |
| r_schestowitz | headline: you should probably not to New York | Oct 01 19:57 |
| r_schestowitz | better headline: planes crash into 2 buildings in NYC | Oct 01 19:57 |
| r_schestowitz | *should not go | Oct 01 19:57 |
| scientes | r_schestowitz, better headline: picture | Oct 01 19:57 |
| scientes | but yeah that is what the headline was | Oct 01 19:58 |
| MinceR | debian used to be different from ubuntu :> | Oct 01 19:58 |
| scientes | not that it wasn't an inside job or anything | Oct 01 19:58 |
| r_schestowitz | add caption: "controlled domoliSHEN MAN!! | Oct 01 19:58 |
| MinceR | "Simon says: bleed." | Oct 01 19:58 |
| scientes | building 7 collapses for no apparent reason | Oct 01 19:58 |
| kaniini | it is all epstein's fault | Oct 01 19:59 |
| kaniini | epstein did 9/11 | Oct 01 19:59 |
| kaniini | give me some time and i'll come up with an explanation | Oct 01 19:59 |
| XRevan86 | "Guess what? Exim's not very secure, but if you're interested in this kind click-baity of articles odds are the biggest security issue of your systems is YOU" | Oct 01 20:00 |
| scientes | XRevan86, I don't read any news of tech | Oct 01 20:01 |
| XRevan86 | s/click-baity of/of click-baity/ | Oct 01 20:01 |
| scientes | so I am indiffernt | Oct 01 20:01 |
| scientes | except lwn.net | Oct 01 20:01 |
| scientes | which is excellent | Oct 01 20:01 |
| scientes | I mean, even they suffer from technical lack sometimes | Oct 01 20:01 |
| scientes | but can you expect anything out of the other sites? | Oct 01 20:01 |
| *XRevan86 reads OpenNET's opennews (in Russian). | Oct 01 20:02 | |
| scientes | do they have good stuff? | Oct 01 20:04 |
| scientes | like in-depth long articles | Oct 01 20:04 |
| *scientes never understood Twitter | Oct 01 20:04 | |
| XRevan86 | scientes: It's not political. | Oct 01 20:04 |
| scientes | bunch of ADD suffers | Oct 01 20:04 |
| scientes | neither is lwn.net | Oct 01 20:05 |
| scientes | I'm talking about long technical articles | Oct 01 20:05 |
| -viera/#techrights-Tux Machines: Links 1/10/2019: Linux 5.3.2 and LibreOffice 10/20 Logo Community Contest http://techrights.org/2019/10/01/libreoffice-logo-contest/ [https://pleroma.site/objects/1b5ffa20-d421-45b9-a53d-c2560c6f6397] | Oct 01 20:05 | |
| XRevan86 | scientes: open*news* | Oct 01 20:06 |
| scientes | yeah there really isn't much new in tech | Oct 01 20:06 |
| scientes | and the good stuff usually gets buried | Oct 01 20:06 |
| XRevan86 | https://opennet.ru/opennews/art.shtml?num=51523 so this kind of stuff | Oct 01 20:06 |
| -TechrightsBot-tr/#techrights-opennet.ru | ??? ??? ?????? LLVM 9.0 | Oct 01 20:06 | |
| scientes | like Google trying to create their own libc in the llvm repo | Oct 01 20:06 |
| XRevan86 | https://opennet.ru/opennews/art.shtml?num=51517 | Oct 01 20:06 |
| -viera/#techrights-Tux Machines: GeForce RTX SUPER Linux Compute Performance - 18 GPU NVIDIA OpenCL Comparison http://www.tuxmachines.org/node/128763 [https://pleroma.site/objects/0b5a1801-2619-4429-8943-808f8f61169a] | Oct 01 20:06 | |
| -TechrightsBot-tr/#techrights-opennet.ru | Debian ?????? ? ???? ????? ????? ??? ??????? | Oct 01 20:06 | |
| XRevan86 | "?????? ? ???? ????? ????? ??? ???????" – if anyone's wondering, they're using KOI8-R | Oct 01 20:07 |
| -viera/#techrights-Tux Machines: #Android Leftovers http://www.tuxmachines.org/node/128764 [https://pleroma.site/objects/f46f16f8-82e0-4c69-9504-23e5a8b11d7e] | Oct 01 20:07 | |
| XRevan86 | https://opennet.ru/opennews/art.shtml?num=51498 | Oct 01 20:07 |
| -TechrightsBot-tr/#techrights-opennet.ru | ??? ????? ???? ?? ????? ??? ?? | Oct 01 20:07 | |
| scientes | ahh yes, its just a translation of the release notes | Oct 01 20:08 |
| scientes | (I happen to be quite familiar with them as I develop Zig) | Oct 01 20:09 |
| scientes | and was involved in LLVM this cycle | Oct 01 20:09 |
| scientes | all non-UTF8 encodings should die in a fire | Oct 01 20:09 |
| scientes | like the LLVM notes are in UTF-8 but firefox tries to display them in Latin-1 | Oct 01 20:10 |
| XRevan86 | scientes: Apparently, their ancient perl code makes it hard to change the encoding. | Oct 01 20:10 |
| scientes | and Russian is the *first* non-latin alphabet in unicode | Oct 01 20:11 |
| XRevan86 | * Cyrillic | Oct 01 20:11 |
| scientes | yeah, but people call Latin English all the time | Oct 01 20:11 |
| scientes | can't I do the same? :) | Oct 01 20:11 |
| XRevan86 | scientes: Well, okay %) | Oct 01 20:12 |
| XRevan86 | scientes: The "Basic Cyrillic alphabet" in Unicode is practically Russian. | Oct 01 20:13 |
| XRevan86 | minus the undepreciated Ё letter | Oct 01 20:13 |
| scientes | same goes for Latin | Oct 01 20:13 |
| scientes | as so many languages want special characters | Oct 01 20:13 |
| XRevan86 | Ъ, Ы, Э – these "Basic" Cyrillic letters are missing in the Ukrainian Cyrillic alphabet, for instance. | Oct 01 20:15 |
| XRevan86 | So yea, the Russianness of Cyrillic is obvious from just looking at it. | Oct 01 20:17 |
| XRevan86 | in Unicode | Oct 01 20:17 |
| scientes | but isn't that the only Cyrillic? /troll | Oct 01 20:18 |
| scientes | Just like all these languages that use Latin characters with funny looking things not really Latin? | Oct 01 20:18 |
| XRevan86 | https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Pronunciation_of_C_in_Europe.png this is the stupidest illustration… | Oct 01 20:20 |
| -TechrightsBot-tr/#techrights-en.wikipedia.org | File:Pronunciation of C in Europe.png - Wikipedia | Oct 01 20:20 | |
| XRevan86 | "Pronunciation of written ⟨c⟩ in European languages" | Oct 01 20:20 |
| XRevan86 | RF, Ukraine, Belarus': [s] Cyrillic | Oct 01 20:20 |
| XRevan86 | brilliant | Oct 01 20:21 |
| scientes | oh wow | Oct 01 20:21 |
| scientes | wikipedia is full of stuff like that however | Oct 01 20:21 |
| scientes | I think getting stoned and editing wikipedia is a thing | Oct 01 20:22 |
| XRevan86 | Meanwhile, *actually* the Latin letter "c" is usually named "tse" | Oct 01 20:22 |
| XRevan86 | and "j" is usually named "zhi" | Oct 01 20:25 |
| XRevan86 | French-like | Oct 01 20:25 |
| scientes | uggh, I wish I learned languages earlier in life | Oct 01 20:25 |
| aindilis | I don't know anything about Cyrillic but I saw a diagram: https://66.media.tumblr.com/c232e8fb88f6a6914e65e9a4b2c0c77a/tumblr_owm80znNLB1thoq3zo1_400.jpg | Oct 01 20:27 |
| XRevan86 | All one needs to know here is that "с" and "c" are literally two different letters with different histories and purpose. | Oct 01 20:28 |
| scientes | ugggh I hate c89 | Oct 01 20:28 |
| scientes | you can't see the types | Oct 01 20:28 |
| scientes | ^^^ | Oct 01 20:28 |
| scientes | yep | Oct 01 20:28 |
| XRevan86 | aindilis: All the data seems right. The circles are confusing though. | Oct 01 20:29 |
| XRevan86 | all blend together | Oct 01 20:29 |
| XRevan86 | scientes: Scroll a little up :P | Oct 01 20:29 |
| scientes | what about c89? | Oct 01 20:30 |
| XRevan86 | aindilis: Also misses out on including the pre-1918 reform Greater Russian alphabet | Oct 01 20:31 |
| scientes | aindilis, looks like it is going to explode | Oct 01 20:31 |
| scientes | or generate electricity | Oct 01 20:31 |
| scientes | and Mongolian is converting back to the Uygher alphabet | Oct 01 20:31 |
| scientes | that the Mongols used | Oct 01 20:31 |
| XRevan86 | This reminded me that it also misses out on the Kazakh alphabet. | Oct 01 20:32 |
| XRevan86 | From what I've seen the new glorious Nazarbayev's Latin Kazakh alphabet isn't being picked up with enthusiasm. | Oct 01 20:33 |
| scientes | I don't get the obsession with Latin | Oct 01 20:34 |
| scientes | like English orthography blows | Oct 01 20:34 |
| scientes | and Latin has lots of problems | Oct 01 20:34 |
| aindilis | https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zZDdN0_K59k | Oct 01 20:34 |
| -TechrightsBot-tr/#techrights-It's a Cyrillic alphabet! - YouTube | Oct 01 20:34 | |
| MinceR | the others are worse | Oct 01 20:34 |
| MinceR | more complicated, more cluttered | Oct 01 20:35 |
| scientes | is cyrillic really woorse? | Oct 01 20:35 |
| scientes | I think Unspell is pretty beautiful | Oct 01 20:35 |
| XRevan86 | scientes: I wanted to state the semi-official rationale but I forgot what it was. | Oct 01 20:35 |
| scientes | XRevan86, love of the US? | Oct 01 20:35 |
| XRevan86 | scientes: ASCII-compatibility basically. | Oct 01 20:36 |
| XRevan86 | aindilis: Now I want to know the context %) | Oct 01 20:36 |
| scientes | cipher-gcm-ppc.c:167:8: error: argument 1 must be a 5-bit signed literal | Oct 01 20:36 |
| scientes | 167 | c2 = vec_splat_u8(0xf0); | Oct 01 20:36 |
| scientes | and people ask why I don't try to use C for my SIMD project | Oct 01 20:36 |
| aindilis | XRevan86: it's a guilty pleasure of mine, the Transformers movies | Oct 01 20:37 |
| -viera/#techrights-Tux Machines: FSF/GNU: ActivityPub Conf, International Day against DRM (IDAD) and GNU Poke http://www.tuxmachines.org/node/128765 [https://pleroma.site/objects/5bd15abb-0668-4b36-ac16-514c4a3a04f2] | Oct 01 20:37 | |
| XRevan86 | "it's like all the buttons you never push on the calculator" – because it's closer to Greek, he-he? | Oct 01 20:37 |
| MinceR | unspell? why not the Ancient alphabet then? :> | Oct 01 20:37 |
| scientes | MinceR, unspell.blogspot.com | Oct 01 20:39 |
| XRevan86 | MinceR: As uncluttered as façade, rèsumè, piñata <: | Oct 01 20:42 |
| scientes | avergüenza | Oct 01 20:42 |
| scientes | even Español has an umlaut! | Oct 01 20:43 |
| -viera/#techrights-Tux Machines: Today in Techrights http://www.tuxmachines.org/node/128766 [https://pleroma.site/objects/cd3a6fe0-628e-4cbb-92cc-ead327c23664] | Oct 01 20:43 | |
| XRevan86 | how archaïc | Oct 01 20:43 |
| XRevan86 | Where's the ASCII compatibility in that? | Oct 01 20:44 |
| MinceR | yeah, i've seen unspell | Oct 01 20:46 |
| MinceR | seems painful to read | Oct 01 20:47 |
| XRevan86 | scientes: Anyway, the alphabet in the Basic Latin character set can be chacaterised not as "English" but as "New Latin" or "Neo-Latin" | Oct 01 20:47 |
| scientes | yeah I know | Oct 01 20:48 |
| scientes | with the lower-case characters | Oct 01 20:48 |
| scientes | and lacking quite a few combined glyphs | Oct 01 20:48 |
| -->MrGreenFriend (~MrGreenFr@gateway/tor-sasl/mrgreenfriend) has joined #techrights | Oct 01 20:48 | |
| XRevan86 | scientes: lower-case character qualify as Neo-Latin | Oct 01 20:49 |
| XRevan86 | characters | Oct 01 20:49 |
| XRevan86 | so are "J" and the V/U distinction | Oct 01 20:50 |
| XRevan86 | I guess that fails to account for "W" though. | Oct 01 20:51 |
| scientes | UU | Oct 01 20:51 |
| scientes | VV | Oct 01 20:51 |
| XRevan86 | scientes: I can't find any evidence it was used in medieval Latin scripts. | Oct 01 20:52 |
| -viera/#techrights-Tux Machines: Kernel: Slab Memory Controller and USB 4.0 http://www.tuxmachines.org/node/128767 [https://pleroma.site/objects/192e3dfc-33c4-4a6f-b4ca-1d9c6011b946] | Oct 01 20:52 | |
| scientes | I have a function that just isn't ending up in my .o | Oct 01 20:52 |
| scientes | and i have no idea why | Oct 01 20:52 |
| XRevan86 | https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/New_Latin#Characters | Oct 01 20:53 |
| XRevan86 | > By the mid-17th century, the letter v was commonly used for the consonantal sound of Roman V, which in most pronunciations of Latin in the New Latin period was [v] (and not [w]), as in vulnus "wound", corvus "crow". Where the pronunciation remained [w], as after g, q and s, the spelling u continued to be used for the consonant, e.g. in lingua, qualis, and suadeo. | Oct 01 20:53 |
| -TechrightsBot-tr/#techrights-en.wikipedia.org | New Latin - Wikipedia | Oct 01 20:53 | |
| scientes | ahh i forgot to rename it | Oct 01 20:53 |
| XRevan86 | https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Botanical_Latin#Alphabet | Oct 01 20:55 |
| -TechrightsBot-tr/#techrights-en.wikipedia.org | Botanical Latin - Wikipedia | Oct 01 20:55 | |
| XRevan86 | > The Classical Latin alphabet consisted of 21 letters, to which w, y, and z were later added, and the vowel/consonant pairs i and j, u and v, were later separated. | Oct 01 20:55 |
| XRevan86 | There we go, Botanical Latin! %) | Oct 01 20:55 |
| scientes | but now people act like it can't change | Oct 01 20:57 |
| scientes | even though its a piece of shit | Oct 01 20:57 |
| scientes | at least English | Oct 01 20:57 |
| scientes | just like people lost the ability to change political maps | Oct 01 20:57 |
| XRevan86 | scientes: I think the biggest issue is making a good level-headed orthography that works for all accents. | Oct 01 20:58 |
| XRevan86 | * grammar | Oct 01 20:58 |
| XRevan86 | Right now English grammar is a compromise between all accents by representing none of them %) | Oct 01 20:59 |
| XRevan86 | now if you try to fix that and get something more phonetic and consistent, well, you've got a big problem to solve | Oct 01 21:00 |
| XRevan86 | and you won't be able to add it incrementally into the existing system | Oct 01 21:00 |
| scientes | XRevan86, who still pronounces English with a rolled R? | Oct 01 21:00 |
| scientes | > grammar | Oct 01 21:00 |
| scientes | like this word | Oct 01 21:00 |
| scientes | > Right | Oct 01 21:01 |
| scientes | and this one | Oct 01 21:01 |
| XRevan86 | scientes: Um, "R" still makes sense. | Oct 01 21:01 |
| XRevan86 | even if the phoneme changed, it's still distinct | Oct 01 21:01 |
| scientes | yeah but the vowels attached to it | Oct 01 21:01 |
| scientes | those are not pronouced | Oct 01 21:01 |
| scientes | they are all schwas | Oct 01 21:01 |
| XRevan86 | a schwa is a vowel | Oct 01 21:01 |
| XRevan86 | and it's irrespective of R | Oct 01 21:02 |
| XRevan86 | London – there's no non-schwa vowel here | Oct 01 21:02 |
| XRevan86 | and no R either | Oct 01 21:03 |
| scientes | > either | Oct 01 21:03 |
| scientes | why not eithor ? | Oct 01 21:04 |
| scientes | or eithar | Oct 01 21:04 |
| scientes | or eithur | Oct 01 21:04 |
| scientes | they are all pronounced the same | Oct 01 21:04 |
| XRevan86 | to me it's aytha | Oct 01 21:05 |
| scientes | don't do phonets with english | Oct 01 21:06 |
| scientes | its impossible | Oct 01 21:06 |
| scientes | <optimized out> | Oct 01 21:06 |
| XRevan86 | also doesn't account for voiceness of "th"… | Oct 01 21:07 |
| XRevan86 | I wanted to rewrite with Cyrillic but remembered "ѳ" is voiceless. | Oct 01 21:07 |
| scientes | does russian have a voiced ѳ? | Oct 01 21:07 |
| XRevan86 | scientes: Russian has neither | Oct 01 21:08 |
| XRevan86 | it's an archaic letter loaned from Greek for more literal respellings | Oct 01 21:08 |
| XRevan86 | was phased out in 1918 | Oct 01 21:08 |
| scientes | oh yeah, I love build systems that delete random shit | Oct 01 21:09 |
| XRevan86 | and just as theta, voiceless | Oct 01 21:09 |
| scientes | þ | Oct 01 21:09 |
| scientes | <optimized out> | Oct 01 21:10 |
| XRevan86 | I think that one is voiceless in Icelandic, with ð being voiced | Oct 01 21:10 |
| XRevan86 | yep | Oct 01 21:11 |
| XRevan86 | so ajða | Oct 01 21:11 |
| XRevan86 | https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dhe_(Cyrillic) Bashkir Cyrillic | Oct 01 21:12 |
| -TechrightsBot-tr/#techrights-en.wikipedia.org | Dhe (Cyrillic) - Wikipedia | Oct 01 21:12 | |
| XRevan86 | айҙа | Oct 01 21:12 |
| XRevan86 | ugh, Bashkir Cyrillic also appropriated "ө" as an ö-like sound. | Oct 01 21:14 |
| XRevan86 | looks similiar, amirite? | Oct 01 21:14 |
| <--Firee has quit (Quit: lolmoi) | Oct 01 21:37 | |
| <--MrGreenFriend has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) | Oct 01 21:39 | |
| -->MrGreenFriend (~MrGreenFr@gateway/tor-sasl/mrgreenfriend) has joined #techrights | Oct 01 21:46 | |
| MinceR | https://img.pr0gramm.com/2019/08/29/2b83cc1ef0b2339c.jpg | Oct 01 22:38 |
| *XRevan86 is rewatching Futurama. Saw "Bendless Love" just now. | Oct 01 22:42 | |
| XRevan86 | The professor being unreasonably happy reminded me of a Monty Python and the Holy Grail sketch. | Oct 01 22:42 |
| XRevan86 | and then at the end he sang a little song with a tune very similiar to Always Look On the Bright Side of Life. | Oct 01 22:43 |
| XRevan86 | And I thought that I'm going insane by thinking of Monty Python from the professor being jolly | Oct 01 22:44 |
| XRevan86 | https://futurama.fandom.com/wiki/Bendless_Love/References#Life_of_Brian | Oct 01 22:44 |
| -TechrightsBot-tr/#techrights-futurama.fandom.com | Bendless Love/References | Futurama Wiki | FANDOM powered by Wikia | Oct 01 22:44 | |
| <--MrGreenFriend has quit (Remote host closed the connection) | Oct 01 23:23 | |
| -->MrGreenFriend (~MrGreenFr@gateway/tor-sasl/mrgreenfriend) has joined #techrights | Oct 01 23:23 | |
| <--MrGreenFriend has quit (Remote host closed the connection) | Oct 01 23:25 | |
| -->str1ngs (~str1ngs@unaffiliated/str1ngs) has joined #techrights | Oct 01 23:27 | |
| <--a1batross (f99f96a489@gateway/shell/jabberfr/x-nlpolpqhuywvrjef) has left #techrights | Oct 01 23:40 | |
| MinceR | https://img.pr0gramm.com/2019/08/29/fe7623626b086ae5.jpg | Oct 01 23:41 |
| XRevan86 | Should've asked about SuperTuxKart | Oct 01 23:42 |
| MinceR | :> | Oct 01 23:42 |
| -->a1batross (f99f96a489@gateway/shell/jabberfr/x-wdkmgvyrssvcpjcm) has joined #techrights | Oct 01 23:43 | |
| -->decnet (~decnet@gateway/tor-sasl/decnet) has joined #techrights | Oct 01 23:43 | |
| decnet | ping .. | Oct 01 23:43 |
| -->MrGreenFriend (~MrGreenFr@gateway/tor-sasl/mrgreenfriend) has joined #techrights | Oct 01 23:43 | |
| XRevan86 | decnet: pong | Oct 01 23:44 |
| decnet | Hi there .. | Oct 01 23:45 |
| XRevan86 | decnet: hi | Oct 01 23:45 |
| decnet | An unbearable itch to migrate your OS to the cloud? You might have a case of Windows VD : https://www.theregister.co.uk/2019/09/30/windows_virtual_desktop/ | Oct 01 23:45 |
| -TechrightsBot-tr/#techrights-www.theregister.co.uk | An unbearable itch to migrate your OS to the cloud? You might have a case of Windows VD • The Register | Oct 01 23:45 | |
| decnet | Interesting comment: "Isn't this sort of thing exactly what Sun tried with its JavaStations? They were a total failure too." | Oct 01 23:46 |
| decnet | We all know why Suns Java failed: | Oct 01 23:46 |
| decnet | http://techrights.org/wiki/index.php/Key_platform_challenges_from_Java_and_NC | Oct 01 23:46 |
| -TechrightsBot-tr/#techrights-techrights.org | Key platform challenges from Java and NC - Techrights | Oct 01 23:46 | |
| decnet | I would post a rebuttal, except my comments are perpetually in moderation :[ | Oct 01 23:48 |
| scientes | 400ms latency is just not bearable | Oct 01 23:59 |
Generated by irclog2html.py 2.6 by Marius Gedminas - find it at mg.pov.lt!
