Join us now at the IRC channel.
| -viera/#techrights-Tux Machines: Google Chrome and Mozilla Firefox http://www.tuxmachines.org/node/131434 [https://pleroma.site/objects/1f004399-8e44-4b1e-80f0-6ccd25261b05] | Dec 09 00:00 | |
| -viera/#techrights-Tux Machines: Ubuntu Virtualisation and Ubuntu Touch http://www.tuxmachines.org/node/131435 [https://pleroma.site/objects/9d85f004-8ce0-48ec-b325-8be455612bc2] | Dec 09 00:02 | |
| psydroid | maybe people can't be trusted and/or depended on | Dec 09 00:05 |
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| -viera/#techrights-Tux Machines: Events: Paris Open Source Summit 2019 and Advent of Code 2019 http://www.tuxmachines.org/node/131436 [https://pleroma.site/objects/c71f8d3e-8cb3-45f6-9697-315a1f5c11aa] | Dec 09 00:26 | |
| -viera/#techrights-Tux Machines: Open source luminaries turn up spotlight on GitHub over ICE deal http://www.tuxmachines.org/node/131437 [https://pleroma.site/objects/4370dd3d-1c92-4225-a859-42fa8f28b7c1] | Dec 09 00:35 | |
| DaemonFC[m] | scientes: How easy is it to walk across the border and claim asylum in Canada? | Dec 09 00:37 |
| DaemonFC[m] | Well, I don't think they shoot at you. That's a good start. | Dec 09 00:37 |
| oiaohm | DaemonFC[m]: problem is also sending you back is normally not that expensive either. | Dec 09 01:00 |
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| -viera/#techrights-Tux Machines: today's howtos http://www.tuxmachines.org/node/131438 [https://pleroma.site/objects/21d0830e-0be3-48b0-b28b-8057e75c47e9] | Dec 09 01:23 | |
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| -viera/#techrights-Tux Machines: Easy Buster 2.1.9 and 2.1.9.1 released http://www.tuxmachines.org/node/131439 [https://pleroma.site/objects/dfbc4701-9fbe-46b3-ac25-ee7ebadbf1db] | Dec 09 02:20 | |
| -viera/#techrights-Tux Machines: Python: Makerbot, pydeps, Coverage and Pytest http://www.tuxmachines.org/node/131440 [https://pleroma.site/objects/a5f23441-2fa4-4ba6-ba47-92948e371c26] | Dec 09 02:37 | |
| -viera/#techrights-Tux Machines: Open Hardware/Modding: ROCK Pi, OpenSensIOT, RISC-V/UltraSoC and FPGA http://www.tuxmachines.org/node/131441 [https://pleroma.site/objects/70671f62-d32e-4932-919b-ba1c4afa7e67] | Dec 09 03:37 | |
| -viera/#techrights-Tux Machines: Security: Open Source Security Podcast and Bugs Identified http://www.tuxmachines.org/node/131442 [https://pleroma.site/objects/e85e5c19-561e-4e13-82d6-a63190ecbaf2] | Dec 09 03:39 | |
| -viera/#techrights-Tux Machines: FOSS in Healthcare: EEG Visualisation Tool and More http://www.tuxmachines.org/node/131443 [https://pleroma.site/objects/c1d869e6-a37c-480e-a134-cca93c5c083e] | Dec 09 03:52 | |
| -viera/#techrights-Tux Machines: Data Transfer Project: Moving From One Spy to Another the 'Open' Way http://www.tuxmachines.org/node/131444 [https://pleroma.site/objects/28f85d7a-b657-4ec6-9163-611ee577d48e] | Dec 09 03:55 | |
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| -viera/#techrights-Tux Machines: Openwashing Leftovers http://www.tuxmachines.org/node/131445 [https://pleroma.site/objects/08836111-cf9a-4ecb-85b0-76c4acf8554f] | Dec 09 04:33 | |
| -viera/#techrights-Tux Machines: Linux Foundation/Cars: CNCF, AGL and Aptiv http://www.tuxmachines.org/node/131446 [https://pleroma.site/objects/b8ced84d-2bd2-4c47-ac81-d90be1cd6a9b] | Dec 09 04:58 | |
| -viera/#techrights-Tux Machines: Red Hat, IBM and Server Leftovers http://www.tuxmachines.org/node/131447 [https://pleroma.site/objects/53ac99e1-1ae3-4a89-8cce-b9d90d481e5b] | Dec 09 05:04 | |
| -viera/#techrights-Tux Machines: Drupal in Canada and in farmOS http://www.tuxmachines.org/node/131448 [https://pleroma.site/objects/cd1e817a-905d-4186-8427-97b21043cae8] | Dec 09 05:14 | |
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| -viera/#techrights-Tux Machines: OSS Leftovers http://www.tuxmachines.org/node/131449 [https://pleroma.site/objects/f4e4e406-6016-48a0-b097-39c45dba2170] | Dec 09 05:35 | |
| -viera/#techrights-Tux Machines: Sharing, Open Data and Open Access/Content http://www.tuxmachines.org/node/131450 [https://pleroma.site/objects/e366bc84-9d4c-4c51-b2fa-a5b9abcd1522] | Dec 09 05:55 | |
| MinceR | https://i.imgur.com/OXvXZvU.mp4 ( https://imgur.com/gallery/OXvXZvU ) | Dec 09 07:25 |
| -TechrightsBot-tr/#techrights-When your paper shredder sounds exactly like your electric can opener. - GIF on Imgur | Dec 09 07:25 | |
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| MinceR | https://img.pr0gramm.com/2019/10/30/8a3cbaef9c581b97.jpg | Dec 09 07:46 |
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| -viera/#techrights-Tux Machines: Programming: Automation, Development, #Python and #GstWPE http://www.tuxmachines.org/node/131451 [https://pleroma.site/objects/60bf745b-47e3-4bb4-9889-b5b19d0c0d08] | Dec 09 08:58 | |
| -viera/#techrights-Tux Machines: gorss – simple RSS/Atom reader written in Golang http://www.tuxmachines.org/node/131452 [https://pleroma.site/objects/1e307cbd-8c76-41c8-947d-0b31d3a7702f] | Dec 09 09:04 | |
| -viera/#techrights-Tux Machines: App Highlight: Open Source Video Transcoder Handbrake http://www.tuxmachines.org/node/131453 [https://pleroma.site/objects/32e7a4e8-bd06-47b9-ad66-77947a21ef66] | Dec 09 09:06 | |
| -viera/#techrights-Tux Machines: The 20 Free and Open Source CRM Solutions for Small Enterprises http://www.tuxmachines.org/node/131454 [https://pleroma.site/objects/c42b4865-b3ac-48e8-b1b0-3b1abe6e5fab] | Dec 09 09:13 | |
| -viera/#techrights-Tux Machines: today's howtos http://www.tuxmachines.org/node/131455 [https://pleroma.site/objects/67da902e-e2f6-48f2-bdfb-fbf5d61a06de] | Dec 09 09:14 | |
| -viera/#techrights-Tux Machines: Keep the Bees Going http://www.tuxmachines.org/node/131456 to those who can support us with a tip for all the hard work... [https://pleroma.site/objects/4fbc390b-7196-4e15-a85f-f1e9e49f2115] | Dec 09 09:30 | |
| -viera/#techrights-Tux Machines: Project Trident Void Alpha http://www.tuxmachines.org/node/131457 [https://pleroma.site/objects/35b8f112-45fb-495a-96c8-43bc526d9ade] | Dec 09 09:47 | |
| -viera/#techrights-Tux Machines: today's leftovers http://www.tuxmachines.org/node/131460 [https://pleroma.site/objects/4f6c6265-d3a1-4aa9-aeef-b96f194ae5dc] | Dec 09 09:58 | |
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| -viera/#techrights-Tux Machines: Links 9/12/2019: Linux 5.5 RC1, EasyOS Buster 2.1.9 http://techrights.org/2019/12/09/linux-5-5-rc1/ [https://pleroma.site/objects/bbb9cee4-9558-47db-b66a-067a42b9fbf9] | Dec 09 10:15 | |
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| -viera/#techrights-Tux Machines: IOTA Works With Dell And Linux On Project Alvarium To Establish Measurable Trust In Data http://www.tuxmachines.org/node/131458 [https://pleroma.site/objects/e6a1193b-12b2-44e9-845c-e0890cab37fa] | Dec 09 10:19 | |
| -viera/#techrights-Tux Machines: Google is bringing a Tab Strip to Chrome for Windows and Linux http://www.tuxmachines.org/node/131459 [https://pleroma.site/objects/cffafd98-ef4a-4b2e-95d9-7031a1b27a39] | Dec 09 10:20 | |
| -viera/#techrights-Tux Machines: Breathe Life Back Into Your Late 2013 Or Older Apple Mac With Linux http://www.tuxmachines.org/node/131461 [https://pleroma.site/objects/78a6883c-6dd8-44e6-b42f-2380c34f9370] | Dec 09 10:22 | |
| -viera/#techrights-Tux Machines: #Android Leftovers http://www.tuxmachines.org/node/131462 [https://pleroma.site/objects/fd7bf3eb-736d-4d13-bceb-33a2fb1ff2dd] | Dec 09 10:23 | |
| -viera/#techrights-Tux Machines: Linux 5.5 Kernel Development: Latest http://www.tuxmachines.org/node/131463 [https://pleroma.site/objects/e042c411-ef4a-41f5-a8ac-f50977bbfc07] | Dec 09 10:37 | |
| -viera/#techrights-Tux Machines: Red Hat, IBM and Fedora's Kernel http://www.tuxmachines.org/node/131464 [https://pleroma.site/objects/6a962620-ee1d-4d14-81f0-25f326a4f6a4] | Dec 09 10:50 | |
| -viera/#techrights-Tux Machines: Games: Plague Inc: Evolved, Dungeon 2 and OBS Studio http://www.tuxmachines.org/node/131465 [https://pleroma.site/objects/99136c29-1b1e-45d3-a25f-470f747f25b5] | Dec 09 10:56 | |
| -viera/#techrights-Tux Machines: Akademy 2019 http://www.tuxmachines.org/node/131466 [https://pleroma.site/objects/5b2225e9-30b5-49b2-9480-2e6641589b8a] | Dec 09 11:00 | |
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| scientes | DaemonFC[m], don't go to Canada | Dec 09 13:48 |
| scientes | and playinbg the victim is not a good strategy if you don't have to do it | Dec 09 13:48 |
| scientes | that's a liberal non-sense thing | Dec 09 13:48 |
| scientes | whining | Dec 09 13:48 |
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| psydroid | there is this guy who added me on Linkedin "for jobs in Canada once I have my degree" | Dec 09 14:30 |
| psydroid | well, I don't plan to ever move to Canada lol | Dec 09 14:30 |
| scientes | if you can go to the far north its probably quite interesting | Dec 09 14:31 |
| scientes | canada is giant | Dec 09 14:31 |
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| psydroid | sure, but I'll see then | Dec 09 14:35 |
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| scientes | ahhhhhhhhhhh, I need duolingo stories for RUssian | Dec 09 16:21 |
| scientes | i'm progressing so slow | Dec 09 16:21 |
| scientes | and that is what got me over the hump to being able to converse in Spanish | Dec 09 16:21 |
| scientes | the problem is that native conversationg are just too hard | Dec 09 16:22 |
| scientes | also these hostel are full of drug-heavy do-nothings | Dec 09 16:22 |
| scientes | and loud | Dec 09 16:22 |
| -viera/#techrights-Tux Machines: Games: Interrogation, Ravenfield, Abstractanks http://www.tuxmachines.org/node/131467 [https://pleroma.site/objects/f2fbe0d0-839b-4ecd-8793-b348350c6bc6] | Dec 09 16:28 | |
| schestowitz | scientes: any family history in RU? | Dec 09 16:29 |
| scientes | yes | Dec 09 16:31 |
| scientes | Tetiev | Dec 09 16:31 |
| scientes | Ukraine | Dec 09 16:31 |
| -viera/#techrights-Tux Machines: The Ubuntu 20.04 LTS Pre-release Survey http://www.tuxmachines.org/node/131468 [https://pleroma.site/objects/c86f7b50-fdc9-47f7-8237-c424703e6ced] | Dec 09 16:35 | |
| scientes | ugggh, wayland is sooo buggy | Dec 09 16:36 |
| scientes | like firefox is always on top of other windows | Dec 09 16:36 |
| -viera/#techrights-Tux Machines: Matroska (MKV) Creation Software Suite MKVToolNix Sees New 41.0.0 Release http://www.tuxmachines.org/node/131469 [https://pleroma.site/objects/0404808c-8ab7-4849-ae47-ca5daca55e33] | Dec 09 16:37 | |
| -viera/#techrights-Tux Machines: Audiocasts/Shows: GNU World Order, Linux Action News and Librem 5 USA http://www.tuxmachines.org/node/131470 [https://pleroma.site/objects/981f224b-d0b1-4a44-9e01-cd42955ce5dc] | Dec 09 17:04 | |
| schestowitz | https://twitter.com/DrStrom66/status/1204078610677731336 | Dec 09 17:06 |
| -TechrightsBot-tr/#techrights-@DrStrom66: Fake news that @Microsoft loves @ubuntu. Here is why : https://t.co/Y6q3cWnLP3 | Dec 09 17:06 | |
| -TechrightsBot-tr/#techrights--> techrights.org | You Know WSL is Bad for GNU/Linux Because Anti-Linux People, Microsoft and Its Propagandists, Want People to Use That | Techrights | Dec 09 17:06 | |
| psydroid | it's been 10 years now and they still can't get it right | Dec 09 17:08 |
| -viera/#techrights-Tux Machines: Gamechuck sponsors Krita http://www.tuxmachines.org/node/131471 [https://pleroma.site/objects/46d4d2bb-09e1-4950-9cb3-2d6183029b6c] | Dec 09 17:10 | |
| -viera/#techrights-Tux Machines: Software: Deb-pacman, Kiwi TCMS and Curl http://www.tuxmachines.org/node/131472 [https://pleroma.site/objects/ac4faab4-c518-4fa0-b2db-e256870d6d41] | Dec 09 17:12 | |
| -viera/#techrights-Tux Machines: Use the Fluxbox Linux desktop as your window manager [https://pleroma.site/objects/59f27a34-f690-41d5-908c-41e3b2d3e16a] | Dec 09 17:18 | |
| -viera/#techrights-Tux Machines: Use the Fluxbox Linux desktop as your window managerhttp://www.tuxmachines.org/node/131473 [https://pleroma.site/objects/be964db3-cf14-4966-a5c7-1fb790f51da7] | Dec 09 17:18 | |
| oiaohm | scientes: really under wayland the compositor is deciding the application appearance position is so what compositor is that. | Dec 09 17:23 |
| oiaohm | psydroid: X11 never got perfectly right. | Dec 09 17:23 |
| psydroid | oiaohm, sure, but Wayland is an implementation from scratch to overcome the shortcomings of X11, as far as I know | Dec 09 17:24 |
| psydroid | so why is this still an issue? | Dec 09 17:25 |
| oiaohm | Wayland is designed to fix the major security flaws of the X11 design. One problem. OS X, Windows and X11 have some common security falws. | Dec 09 17:25 |
| oiaohm | falws/flaws | Dec 09 17:26 |
| oiaohm | So you fix the under-layer and you have now broken all the applications on top in some way. And you cannot make them work without code modifications without bring the security flaw back. | Dec 09 17:26 |
| oiaohm | psydroid: can you now see how this is one monster of a problem. | Dec 09 17:27 |
| oiaohm | Wayland is not just change the display manager its basically change all the applications todo it perfectly as well. | Dec 09 17:28 |
| psydroid | oiaohm, so that means the applications themselves are broken | Dec 09 17:29 |
| psydroid | I think that's what free software is good at, so the applications need to be fixed one at a time | Dec 09 17:30 |
| oiaohm | and it all man power. | Dec 09 17:31 |
| oiaohm | to be politically correct person power. | Dec 09 17:32 |
| oiaohm | Lot of free software projects are not highly over resourced in that department. | Dec 09 17:32 |
| samiamsam | or just say labor hours | Dec 09 17:32 |
| oiaohm | xwayland is being worked on as a stop gap. Yes it brings back some of the security flaws of X11. | Dec 09 17:32 |
| samiamsam | is there a vnc server for wayland that works like x11vnc? | Dec 09 17:32 |
| oiaohm | There is a RDP with wayland I know of in weston. | Dec 09 17:33 |
| samiamsam | i can ssh to a remote machine with a port forwarded, set DISPLAY, run x11vnc, and use the forwarded port to interact with the remote X server | Dec 09 17:34 |
| oiaohm | samiamsam: https://wiki.gnome.org/Projects/Mutter/RemoteDesktop the vnc is not fully working yet. | Dec 09 17:34 |
| -TechrightsBot-tr/#techrights-wiki.gnome.org | Projects/Mutter/RemoteDesktop - GNOME Wiki! | Dec 09 17:34 | |
| oiaohm | This is one of these things remote screen support is not going to be in the wayland protocol. | Dec 09 17:35 |
| oiaohm | It will be in pipewire that not that far distribution deployed. | Dec 09 17:35 |
| samiamsam | i just hope we don't start losing support for x11 before certain functionality is reimplemented | Dec 09 17:38 |
| oiaohm | x11vnc is really exploiting security flaw of X11 were any application can read the complete screen and fake input. | Dec 09 17:39 |
| oiaohm | and read input. | Dec 09 17:39 |
| samiamsam | that's why i was asking | Dec 09 17:40 |
| oiaohm | So that is why its having to work out how to do it completely different. | Dec 09 17:40 |
| oiaohm | pipewire based screen casting will work with either X11 or wayland solutions. It really does not care as it really going down to the raw drm interface and raw input interfaces. | Dec 09 17:41 |
| samiamsam | wow pipewire.org does not work in w3m | Dec 09 17:41 |
| samiamsam | Access denied | Dec 09 17:41 |
| samiamsam | The owner of this website (pipewire.org) has banned your access based on your browser's signature (5428c5713dea7e19-ua55). | Dec 09 17:42 |
| samiamsam | well that's only when it is clicked through google.com search | Dec 09 17:42 |
| -viera/#techrights-Tux Machines: today's howtos http://www.tuxmachines.org/node/131474 [https://pleroma.site/objects/ca036692-b2b0-4bfb-8aa6-617dbb2a5349] | Dec 09 17:43 | |
| oiaohm | I did a google search and clicked through on https://pipewire.org/ and it worked for me. | Dec 09 17:43 |
| -TechrightsBot-tr/#techrights-pipewire.org | PipeWire | Dec 09 17:43 | |
| samiamsam | "PipeWire [...] aims to support the usecases currently handled by both PulseAudio and Jack" | Dec 09 17:43 |
| oiaohm | Pipewire started off as pulsevideo. Now it working on replacing pulseaudio and jack and doing video routing. | Dec 09 17:44 |
| danielp3344 | cloudflare site... :'( | Dec 09 17:45 |
| samiamsam | jack doesn't let two different system users use audio at the same time. pulseaudio does, but requires every user mess with their configuration. it's a total mess. meanwhile every user can share the same network card without any configuration or daemon or anything. | Dec 09 17:46 |
| oiaohm | samiamsam: https://github.com/PipeWire/pipewire fun part is the readme of it does not methion jack. | Dec 09 17:46 |
| -TechrightsBot-tr/#techrights-GitHub - PipeWire/pipewire: Mirror of the PipeWire repository (see https://gitlab.freedesktop.org/pipewire/pipewire/) | Dec 09 17:46 | |
| samiamsam | i bet they don't fix these problems :| | Dec 09 17:46 |
| samiamsam | it's a big problem for me, i rely on the audio for system alarms for a medical device, that needs a daemon that runs without x running to make sure it always always always runs. but i also want to be able to use audio on the desktop | Dec 09 17:47 |
| oiaohm | I don't think there is even a pipewire bug open to fix that. | Dec 09 17:49 |
| oiaohm | Getting rid of the jackaudio/pulseaudio cat fight will be a good thing. | Dec 09 17:50 |
| samiamsam | where is their bug tracker? | Dec 09 17:51 |
| oiaohm | samiamsam: sharing a network card is simple. Everyone is send individual packets of data with a network that don't need to be mixed with each other. | Dec 09 17:51 |
| oiaohm | Audio you have todo mixing somewhere. | Dec 09 17:51 |
| samiamsam | i don't think jack/pulse is a cat fight. jack is fixing a problem | Dec 09 17:51 |
| samiamsam | oiaohm: that's not true, the wifi card has to mix together packets into transmission units | Dec 09 17:52 |
| samiamsam | higher level packets | Dec 09 17:52 |
| samiamsam | i mean, for the wifi card | Dec 09 17:52 |
| oiaohm | samiamsam: the contents of the packets are not mixed with each other. | Dec 09 17:52 |
| oiaohm | Where the contents of the audio have to be. | Dec 09 17:52 |
| samiamsam | that does not mkae a huge difference | Dec 09 17:52 |
| oiaohm | It does in fact. | Dec 09 17:52 |
| samiamsam | ?? | Dec 09 17:52 |
| scientes | probably some feature | Dec 09 17:53 |
| scientes | wayland is still better | Dec 09 17:53 |
| scientes | fixes a bunch of old pesky bugs | Dec 09 17:53 |
| scientes | like security | Dec 09 17:53 |
| scientes | against keyloggers for example | Dec 09 17:53 |
| oiaohm | scientes: and problem is fixing those old pesky bugs creates a mountain of new bugs. | Dec 09 17:53 |
| samiamsam | security from your own system isn't too important | Dec 09 17:53 |
| scientes | in x11 any application can be a keylogger | Dec 09 17:53 |
| samiamsam | in any normal system, any application can steal all of your private data without key logging | Dec 09 17:54 |
| scientes | samiamsam, yeah but you have to fix it to ever create a more sensible system | Dec 09 17:54 |
| scientes | samiamsam, and there is a seL4-based securie window manager | Dec 09 17:54 |
| samiamsam | you don't have to fix that thing first | Dec 09 17:54 |
| -viera/#techrights-Tux Machines: Fedora and Red Hat: Linux 5.4, Fedora Respins, Containers and Red Hat Integration http://www.tuxmachines.org/node/131475 [https://pleroma.site/objects/b2141d8c-4537-436d-83f8-5ae8dba77183] | Dec 09 17:55 | |
| samiamsam | but ok. it's fine to improve things. it's just not too important to secure against your own applications. especially when it's all free software | Dec 09 17:55 |
| oiaohm | samiamsam: https://gitlab.freedesktop.org/pipewire/pipewire/issues pipewire issue list is here. | Dec 09 17:55 |
| <--a1batross (f99f96a489@gateway/shell/jabberfr/x-rwkmfvobpikdnyny) has left #techrights | Dec 09 17:55 | |
| -TechrightsBot-tr/#techrights-gitlab.freedesktop.org | Issues · PipeWire / pipewire · GitLab | Dec 09 17:55 | |
| scientes | samiamsam, yeah, but there is something to what android did | Dec 09 17:55 |
| scientes | even if it means SELinux hell | Dec 09 17:55 |
| oiaohm | samiamsam: think modern day webbrowsers wanting to let remote applications access your desktop web cam audio..... | Dec 09 17:55 |
| oiaohm | samiamsam: are you going to stop browing the web some point in the furture. Or does desktop security need to lift by a major factor. | Dec 09 17:56 |
| scientes | samiamsam, and the only reason we don't run a bunch of random apps these days is because we have web browsers to run untrusted code | Dec 09 17:56 |
| samiamsam | oiaohm: firefox already requests permissoin through the ui for that | Dec 09 17:56 |
| oiaohm | samiamsam: are you sure that permission dialog is not flawed. | Dec 09 17:57 |
| samiamsam | oiaohm: i don't understand. firefox has such permission from the system. wayland cannot remove it from firefox | Dec 09 17:57 |
| samiamsam | oiaohm: without breaking the functionality | Dec 09 17:57 |
| samiamsam | i'm not sure it's not flawed, but locking firefox out of those hardware devices at the os level isn't an improvement | Dec 09 17:58 |
| scientes | samiamsam, are you suggesting we go back to MMU-less systems? | Dec 09 17:58 |
| scientes | because securiry against other apps on system doesn't matter? | Dec 09 17:58 |
| samiamsam | scientes: lol, what? | Dec 09 17:58 |
| oiaohm | pipewire can cut the video and audio out from under application by feeding it blank. | Dec 09 17:58 |
| scientes | lets all run mac os 9 | Dec 09 17:58 |
| samiamsam | the mmu is not for security from one user application against another running as the same user | Dec 09 17:58 |
| samiamsam | the mmu enables users isolated from one another, and from the kernel | Dec 09 17:59 |
| oiaohm | samiamsam: the system cutting off functionality to application does not have to break application. | Dec 09 17:59 |
| scientes | samiamsam, who said all wayland apps are the same user? | Dec 09 17:59 |
| oiaohm | Completely. | Dec 09 17:59 |
| scientes | or all x11 apps? | Dec 09 17:59 |
| oiaohm | Device access control is really OS thing not an application thing. | Dec 09 17:59 |
| samiamsam | scientes: well they are, generally speaking | Dec 09 17:59 |
| scientes | only due to security laziness | Dec 09 18:00 |
| samiamsam | oiaohm: i think firefox is the right place to handle those permissions, because firefox knows which url is getting to access them | Dec 09 18:00 |
| scientes | there are only sensible arrangement | Dec 09 18:00 |
| samiamsam | scientes: no, not only due to that | Dec 09 18:00 |
| scientes | but they require a trusted file manager | Dec 09 18:00 |
| oiaohm | samiamsam: remember firefox is rendering a web page per process. | Dec 09 18:00 |
| scientes | to pass around file handles | Dec 09 18:01 |
| samiamsam | scientes: even on my local network, i use vnc extensively to remotely access machines, i do not use x11 protocol at all, because it sucks for many non-security related reasons | Dec 09 18:01 |
| oiaohm | If the OS provides the security firefox could ask on a per process base for the permissions to be granted. | Dec 09 18:01 |
| scientes | samiamsam, well yeah, but its still a valid use case | Dec 09 18:01 |
| samiamsam | scientes: i agree it's useful in principle, it's just not actually in anything like widespread use | Dec 09 18:01 |
| scientes | agreed | Dec 09 18:02 |
| samiamsam | oiaohm: there is very little actual benefit to that, also i don't think firefox is actually using a process per page, i think it has a certain number of "Web Content" processes that is not guaranteed to be as high as the number of pages or domains | Dec 09 18:03 |
| oiaohm | https://www.phoronix.com/scan.php?page=news_item&px=Wayland-Weston-8.0-Alpha For remote usage weston has started picking I headless. | Dec 09 18:03 |
| -TechrightsBot-tr/#techrights-Wayland's Weston 8.0 Reaches Alpha With EGL Partial Updates, Headless OpenGL - Phoronix | Dec 09 18:03 | |
| scientes | samiamsam, firefox could go alot further to sandbox things like image rendering | Dec 09 18:04 |
| scientes | it should use shared memory, a seperate process, and seccomd mode 1 | Dec 09 18:04 |
| scientes | but linux just isn't a top priority | Dec 09 18:05 |
| scientes | or seccomp mode 2 for mmap() and use memfd | Dec 09 18:05 |
| oiaohm | samiamsam: firefox and chrome are both working in the direction of a process per webpage open. | Dec 09 18:05 |
| scientes | oiaohm, not really | Dec 09 18:05 |
| samiamsam | yeah sure. this is the thing with these security ideas. all these obscure little things that don't matter. in our society one person with initials mz has the keys to a billion locks, and we have a bunch of security experts worried about whether the locks can be picked, whether they can be smashed with a hammer, or pried with a wrench. almost the only thing that matters is who has the keys | Dec 09 18:06 |
| scientes | firefox is far more memory efficient that chrome partially because it DOESN"T do that | Dec 09 18:06 |
| oiaohm | I have seen firefox spin memoy out of countrol as well because it does not do that yet as well. | Dec 09 18:06 |
| samiamsam | heh, i run firefox in a cgroup with limited memory | Dec 09 18:07 |
| oiaohm | process per webpage does push you base memory update up a bit. But it also means trouble making webpage can detected and terimatinged simpley. | Dec 09 18:07 |
| oiaohm | It would be nice to be able to set cgroup memory limit per webpage. | Dec 09 18:08 |
| scientes | samiamsam, that is pretty smart | Dec 09 18:09 |
| oiaohm | I saw a nasty way to kill a 4G machine with firefox. Open the xml file that lists all the accountants in Australia who are registered. Works out that file triggers firefox to consume about 36G of ram. | Dec 09 18:11 |
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| samiamsam | it's kind of surprising that the linux oom killer still sucks in 2019 | Dec 09 18:14 |
| scientes | samiamsam, its a hard problem | Dec 09 18:14 |
| scientes | and Facebook did write their own OOM killer | Dec 09 18:14 |
| scientes | as did android | Dec 09 18:14 |
| samiamsam | hm | Dec 09 18:15 |
| scientes | both in user-space | Dec 09 18:15 |
| oiaohm | The in kernel oomkiller is better than it was 10 years ago. | Dec 09 18:16 |
| oiaohm | It could still be better. | Dec 09 18:16 |
| oiaohm | oom killer is a hard problem. | Dec 09 18:16 |
| scientes | <oiaohm> It could still be better. | Dec 09 18:16 |
| scientes | that is a massive overstatement | Dec 09 18:17 |
| scientes | *understatement | Dec 09 18:17 |
| oiaohm | The problem is really not simple. System get overloaded with a important database you cannot go around randomally killing off stuff before items like that had chance to write out. | Dec 09 18:17 |
| oiaohm | Also Linux kernel overcommit of memory is because a lot of applications ask for memory they never use. | Dec 09 18:18 |
| oiaohm | So some of the reason oomkiller is so bad is applications are despicable. | Dec 09 18:19 |
| scientes | it is also a NP complete problem | Dec 09 18:20 |
| oiaohm | Really I would love to see a nasty system that developers are forced to work with where OS can ask application to free it unused memory and if it does not application will get instant terminated even when memory is not low. | Dec 09 18:21 |
| samiamsam | scientes: how do you define the problem? | Dec 09 18:22 |
| -viera/#techrights-Tux Machines: Security Leftovers http://www.tuxmachines.org/node/131481 [https://pleroma.site/objects/805bd447-1e14-4493-9223-2ff1de9f7f44] | Dec 09 18:23 | |
| scientes | samiamsam, well the goal is to kill the most bad process | Dec 09 18:23 |
| scientes | this is obviously an impossible thing to do | Dec 09 18:23 |
| scientes | because you don't have the data to know what the thing you are killing will also take down | Dec 09 18:24 |
| scientes | like when you accidentally kill the display manager | Dec 09 18:24 |
| samiamsam | well sure, that isn't an issue of algorithmic complexity though | Dec 09 18:27 |
| samiamsam | even with infinite compute time you can't know the consequences of killing a process | Dec 09 18:27 |
| scientes | yeah, but that is something a user-space OOM killer CAN know | Dec 09 18:29 |
| samiamsam | uh | Dec 09 18:30 |
| samiamsam | what does user/kernel have to do with it? | Dec 09 18:30 |
| scientes | kernel code can't be application-specific | Dec 09 18:31 |
| samiamsam | it can and is though | Dec 09 18:31 |
| scientes | it has to be general (unless you are an enterprise file system) | Dec 09 18:31 |
| samiamsam | no | Dec 09 18:31 |
| samiamsam | there is like oom_adj and whatnot that is per-process oom settings | Dec 09 18:31 |
| scientes | <scientes> because you don't have the data to know what the thing you are killing will also take down | Dec 09 18:32 |
| scientes | <scientes> like when you accidentally kill the display manager | Dec 09 18:32 |
| scientes | only user-space can has this information | Dec 09 18:32 |
| samiamsam | kernel knows all userspace information | Dec 09 18:32 |
| scientes | this is why android oom killer works so well | Dec 09 18:32 |
| scientes | and simple | Dec 09 18:32 |
| samiamsam | anyway i thought you were talking about algorithmic mechanism of acquiring knowledge | Dec 09 18:32 |
| samiamsam | not manually inputted knowledge (which can be input into kernel just as much as userspace though, so that doesn't matter) | Dec 09 18:33 |
| scientes | samiamsam, you can't pass data at oom time, becuase kernel calling user-space is almost always a bad idea | Dec 09 18:34 |
| scientes | there are only two ways kernel calls user-space | Dec 09 18:34 |
| scientes | init and modprobe | Dec 09 18:34 |
| samiamsam | you don't need to call userspace, you provide a userspace interface for the knowledge to be put into the kernel, which is alreayd provided, oom_adj etc. | Dec 09 18:35 |
| samiamsam | not to say that the kernel can know as much as the android oom killer specifically, but in principle it could be made to | Dec 09 18:36 |
| MinceR | you can tell they'll never get wayland right because they've been at it for 11 years and the design still sucks | Dec 09 18:36 |
| samiamsam | certainly you could put a dependency graph into the kernel oom killer if you wanted | Dec 09 18:36 |
| scientes | samiamsam, but that only works for certain algorithms | Dec 09 18:36 |
| scientes | certain heuristics | Dec 09 18:37 |
| scientes | some heuristics can't use that | Dec 09 18:37 |
| samiamsam | user processes have no source of knowledge unavailable to kernel space | Dec 09 18:37 |
| scientes | samiamsam, yes they do | Dec 09 18:37 |
| scientes | not security wise, but they do | Dec 09 18:37 |
| scientes | and actually that security is changing | Dec 09 18:38 |
| scientes | some arches are adding security on the kernel from accessing user-space | Dec 09 18:38 |
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| MinceR | https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/National_Indian_Gaming_Association | Dec 09 20:05 |
| -TechrightsBot-tr/#techrights-en.wikipedia.org | National Indian Gaming Association - Wikipedia | Dec 09 20:06 | |
| zoobab | http://blog.ffii.org/manifestation-contre-le-brevet-logiciel-unitaire-jeudi-12-decembre-a-bruxelles/ | Dec 09 20:09 |
| Hail_Spacecake | this is probably a native american casino trade association | Dec 09 20:09 |
| -TechrightsBot-tr/#techrights-Manifestation contre le Brevet Logiciel Unitaire, jeudi 12 décembre à Bruxelles | Blog.FFII.org | Dec 09 20:09 | |
| Hail_Spacecake | but I kind of hope it is a club for indian guys who play counterstrike and league | Dec 09 20:09 |
| zoobab | Manifestation contre le Brevet Logiciel Unitaire, jeudi 12 décembre à Bruxelles | Dec 09 20:12 |
| schestowitz | excellent | Dec 09 20:15 |
| -viera/#techrights-Tux Machines: Devices: Btlejack, I2C, Congatec http://www.tuxmachines.org/node/131496 [https://pleroma.site/objects/e879bf40-2563-4719-9319-48aa3eb97956] | Dec 09 20:15 | |
| schestowitz | zoobab: if there's an English version the word/awareness will spread further | Dec 09 20:17 |
| *XRevan86 understood without translation that there will be a manifestation against something at December 12 in Brussels | Dec 09 20:19 | |
| schestowitz | BIll Gates gets another pie in the face | Dec 09 20:20 |
| XRevan86 | software patents? | Dec 09 20:20 |
| schestowitz | Those too | Dec 09 20:21 |
| schestowitz | and kids | Dec 09 20:21 |
| schestowitz | from Epstein | Dec 09 20:21 |
| zoobab | will try to make an english one | Dec 09 20:21 |
| XRevan86 | https://i0.wp.com/blog.ffii.org/wp-content/uploads/2019/12/banana.jpg – ukrainophobia? %) | Dec 09 20:22 |
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| XRevan86 | ( https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/4/49/Flag_of_Ukraine.svg ) | Dec 09 20:23 |
| zoobab | http://blog.ffii.org/demonstration-against-unitary-software-patents-thursday-12-dec-in-brussels/ | Dec 09 20:30 |
| -TechrightsBot-tr/#techrights-Demonstration against Unitary Software Patents thursday 12 dec in Brussels | Blog.FFII.org | Dec 09 20:30 | |
| -viera/#techrights-Tux Machines: today's leftovers http://www.tuxmachines.org/node/131497 [https://pleroma.site/objects/136622de-9273-42d8-9e6b-4ca5556f8a7d] | Dec 09 20:30 | |
| zoobab | UPC is the new banana republic | Dec 09 20:30 |
| schestowitz | Do you want to cross-post this in techrights? | Dec 09 20:31 |
| zoobab | yes | Dec 09 20:32 |
| zoobab | go for it | Dec 09 20:32 |
| schestowitz | cheers | Dec 09 20:33 |
| schestowitz | just a moment... | Dec 09 20:37 |
| schestowitz | almost there | Dec 09 20:37 |
| MinceR | that's what she said. | Dec 09 20:37 |
| schestowitz | just did Daily Links | Dec 09 20:37 |
| schestowitz | MinceR: better than premature -- | Dec 09 20:37 |
| MinceR | :> | Dec 09 20:37 |
| schestowitz | usually the female is the one who needs waiting for | Dec 09 20:38 |
| -viera/#techrights-Tux Machines: Links 9/12/2019: China on GNU/Linux, Canonical Wants Help to Improve Ubuntu http://techrights.org/2019/12/09/canonical-wants-help-to-improve-ubuntu/ [https://pleroma.site/objects/c1457126-f740-4315-96bb-c94d96f7ec46] | Dec 09 20:38 | |
| schestowitz | zoobab: "sofware patenting" | Dec 09 20:40 |
| schestowitz | typo | Dec 09 20:40 |
| zoobab | where? | Dec 09 20:44 |
| XRevan86 | sof | Dec 09 20:44 |
| schestowitz | "The UPC Court" | Dec 09 20:46 |
| schestowitz | The C stands for court | Dec 09 20:46 |
| schestowitz | FFII calls to demonstrate against Unitary Software Patents, the third attempt to impose software patents in Europe. Software patents are a threat to small- and medium-sized software companies that cannot defend themselves. The UPC (Unified Patent Court) is an international court made outside of the European Union, which would have the last word over the question of software patenting. The Court would favour “patent trolls” which steal | Dec 09 20:48 |
| schestowitz | our jobs and extort money. | Dec 09 20:48 |
| zoobab | updated | Dec 09 20:53 |
| schestowitz | http://techrights.org/2019/12/09/upc-protest/ c | Dec 09 20:54 |
| -TechrightsBot-tr/#techrights-techrights.org | Demonstration Against Unitary Software Patents, Thursday 12 Dec in Brussels | Techrights | Dec 09 20:54 | |
| schestowitz | added to http://techrights.org/wiki/index.php/EPO | Dec 09 20:54 |
| -TechrightsBot-tr/#techrights-techrights.org | EPO - Techrights | Dec 09 20:54 | |
| schestowitz | also to http://techrights.org/wiki/index.php/Software_Patents_in_Europe | Dec 09 20:54 |
| -TechrightsBot-tr/#techrights-techrights.org | Software Patents in Europe - Techrights | Dec 09 20:54 | |
| schestowitz | zoobab: thanks for helping fight this dragon | Dec 09 20:57 |
| schestowitz | family over this week | Dec 09 20:57 |
| schestowitz | but I will do an article about this later, maybe by morning time... | Dec 09 20:57 |
| schestowitz | I have some EPO leaks or juicy details | Dec 09 20:58 |
| schestowitz | strike coming | Dec 09 20:58 |
| zoobab | can you add the "coporate terrorism" image to your post? | Dec 09 20:59 |
| zoobab | I love it | Dec 09 20:59 |
| schestowitz | which one? | Dec 09 20:59 |
| schestowitz | i gotta g2 bed | Dec 09 20:59 |
| schestowitz | maybe later | Dec 09 20:59 |
| schestowitz | leave details in irc | Dec 09 20:59 |
| schestowitz | gn | Dec 09 20:59 |
| zoobab | ok | Dec 09 20:59 |
| MinceR | https://img.pr0gramm.com/2019/10/18/62441d9cbc46a84b.jpg | Dec 09 21:25 |
| danielp3344 | nice | Dec 09 21:27 |
| DaemonFC[m] | I got my sentence converted. | Dec 09 22:20 |
| DaemonFC[m] | I'm no longer on probation. The rest is court supervision. | Dec 09 22:20 |
| MinceR | https://hugelolcdn.com/i/642923.jpg | Dec 09 22:52 |
| XRevan86 | DaemonFC[m]: Congratulations | Dec 09 22:55 |
| MinceR | https://hugelolcdn.com/i/643004.png | Dec 09 22:57 |
| DaemonFC[m] | Thank you. | Dec 09 23:07 |
| DaemonFC[m] | This is the end of a very stressful 4 months where any wrong move would have meant jail time. | Dec 09 23:08 |
| MinceR | congrats | Dec 09 23:09 |
| <--swaggboi has quit (Quit: C-x C-c) | Dec 09 23:12 | |
| DaemonFC[m] | MinceR thank you | Dec 09 23:12 |
| DaemonFC[m] | Went better than I thought. | Dec 09 23:12 |
| DaemonFC[m] | I asked the court to adjust the financial sentence to return the portion of the fine to cover the 8 months of probation I ended up not receiving. | Dec 09 23:13 |
| DaemonFC[m] | So I didn't figure they would because who gets money back once the state has it? | Dec 09 23:13 |
| DaemonFC[m] | The judge ruled that the clerk had to write a check for $450 and mail it to me. Lol | Dec 09 23:14 |
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| zoobab | I have updated the french version | Dec 09 23:25 |
| zoobab | http://blog.ffii.org/manifestation-contre-le-brevet-logiciel-unitaire-jeudi-12-decembre-a-bruxelles/ | Dec 09 23:25 |
| -TechrightsBot-tr/#techrights-Manifestation contre le Brevet Logiciel Unitaire, jeudi 12 décembre à Bruxelles | Blog.FFII.org | Dec 09 23:25 | |
| zoobab | with 15 points on why the UPC should be rejected | Dec 09 23:26 |
| DaemonFC[m] | > this is probably a native american casino trade association | Dec 09 23:28 |
| DaemonFC[m] | "We'll call ourselves the National Indian Gaming Commission.....one drawback, the abbreviation is NIGA." | Dec 09 23:28 |
| MinceR | NIGA please | Dec 09 23:30 |
| DaemonFC[m] | 😁 | Dec 09 23:30 |
| DaemonFC[m] | He got it. | Dec 09 23:30 |
| DaemonFC[m] | Err, Association | Dec 09 23:30 |
| DaemonFC[m] | I botched my own joke there. | Dec 09 23:31 |
| DaemonFC[m] | MinceR It was based on one in Red Dwarf anymore. | Dec 09 23:31 |
| DaemonFC[m] | The first polymorph episode. | Dec 09 23:31 |
| MinceR | i haven't seen Red Dwarf yet | Dec 09 23:31 |
| DaemonFC[m] | Rimmer has his anger sucked out and gets turned into a hippy. | Dec 09 23:32 |
| DaemonFC[m] | "I say the time for talk is over. This is a time for action. Call me radical, but I say we hit it fast and we hit it hard with a major, and I do mean major, leaflet campaign.". | Dec 09 23:33 |
| DaemonFC[m] | "Now we'll need a name. I had the idea of the Committee to Liberate and Integrate Terrifying Organisms and Reintegrate them Into Society....one drawback...the abbreviation is CLITORIS.". | Dec 09 23:34 |
| MinceR | lol | Dec 09 23:35 |
| DaemonFC[m] | Or something like that. Been a while. | Dec 09 23:35 |
| MinceR | The full name of the compiler is "Compiler Language With No Pronounceable Acronym," which is, for obvious reasons, abbreviated "INTERCAL." | Dec 09 23:37 |
| DaemonFC[m] | MinceR I call my husband's sister "The Cell". | Dec 09 23:46 |
| DaemonFC[m] | Reference to a movie whose tagline was about entering the mind of a psychopath. | Dec 09 23:46 |
| MinceR | :> | Dec 09 23:47 |
| DaemonFC[m] | Her name is Cel, so I thought it was funny, even though the movie isn't that great. | Dec 09 23:47 |
| MinceR | they can Cel anything to her, apparently | Dec 09 23:47 |
| DaemonFC[m] | MinceR one of the prosecutors looked like the ascended part of Anubis in SG1. So I kept track of him in my head as Anubis. | Dec 09 23:48 |
| DaemonFC[m] | And the other one looked like Dustin Hoffman. | Dec 09 23:48 |
| DaemonFC[m] | So when I told my attorney to go talk to Dustin Hoffman about something, he looked at me. I said, "The prosecutor that looks like Dustin Hoffman. I don't know their names because I'm not going to go over and talk to the state without you even to find that out.". | Dec 09 23:49 |
| DaemonFC[m] | MinceR During the Two Minutes Hate phone call where his family was shouting obscenities in the phone, they kept saying "Fucking psychotic! Take your meds fucking psychotic!". | Dec 09 23:51 |
| DaemonFC[m] | I said, "If a psychiatrist overheard this, you'd be getting a thorazine injection and taking a little nap, so I don't know how any of this is an insult to me.". | Dec 09 23:52 |
| MinceR | lol | Dec 09 23:53 |
| DaemonFC[m] | "Well, we know what to get you for Christmas. A double lobotomy and 12 rolls of rubber wallpaper.". Another great one from Red Dwarf. | Dec 09 23:53 |
| MinceR | lol | Dec 09 23:53 |
| DaemonFC[m] | MinceR They were always rude to me. I baked some desert for Thanksgiving. | Dec 09 23:55 |
| DaemonFC[m] | After they stuffed me and my husband into the other room except to check to see if I was stealing the silverware, they totally ignored my pie and cream cheese pumpkin roll. | Dec 09 23:55 |
| DaemonFC[m] | MinceR I used one of Jim Carey's lines on my former landlord's husband when he came to his wife's defense. | Dec 09 23:59 |
| DaemonFC[m] | "Gee Dave, I figured you would have a sense of humor. After all, you married her.". | Dec 09 23:59 |
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