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IRC: #techrights @ FreeNode: Wednesday, December 09, 2020

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DaemonFC[m]This new laptop seems pretty wel lbuilt.Dec 09 00:05
DaemonFC[m]I haven't set it up yet.Dec 09 00:05
DaemonFC[m]I wonder if they ever got Windows 10 under any sort of control, as far as the constant crashes.Dec 09 00:07
DaemonFC[m]Guessing no.Dec 09 00:07
DaemonFC[m] 09 00:07
-TechrightsBot-tr/#techrights-Americans used less gas this Thanksgiving week than any since 1997 - CNNDec 09 00:07
DaemonFC[m]schestowitz: US gasoline consumption was the lowest for the week of Thanksgiving since 1997.Dec 09 00:08
DaemonFC[m]Looks like most people ignored Trump's suggestion to have mass gatherings. Dec 09 00:08
tr_guest|44886lollDec 09 00:08
DaemonFC[m]I'm not certain how Apple is even still in business.Dec 09 00:08
DaemonFC[m]These M1 chips might not be bad in and of themselves.Dec 09 00:09
DaemonFC[m]But their downfall will probably be lack of x86 OS and program performance.Dec 09 00:09
DaemonFC[m]I mean, we're back to talking emulators and "Oh, you only lose 30% of your performance.".Dec 09 00:09
DaemonFC[m]PowerPC systems could emulate an x86 environment to run Windows, but you notice the Macs only had like a 2% share of the desktop market at that point.Dec 09 00:10
tr_guest|44886i mean for most things it'll be fineDec 09 00:10
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tr_guest|44886and anyways some people might wait for suppport to get betterDec 09 00:10
DaemonFC[m]They eventually made their way to something like 9%, and a lot of that increase was after the Intel transition and thanks to Boot Camp.Dec 09 00:10
tr_guest|44886yeahDec 09 00:10
DaemonFC[m]Apple maybe could have designed their own x86 processors. They're big enough to pull it off.Dec 09 00:11
DaemonFC[m]I'm kind of wondering why they didn't go that route. Dec 09 00:11
DaemonFC[m]All of the same "IP" royalties going to Intel apply to Rosetta, and that sucks.Dec 09 00:12
DaemonFC[m]As far as I know, they have to license the ARM ISA by number of units shipped with it.Dec 09 00:12
DaemonFC[m]Maybe they can get it done cheaper but I'm not seeing how.Dec 09 00:12
DaemonFC[m]One of the Fn keys on the new ThinkBook is mapped to some sort of Lenovo support thing.Dec 09 00:14
psydroidis Windows 10 still crashing all the time on new laptops?Dec 09 00:14
DaemonFC[m]I wonder what the hell that key does on Linux.Dec 09 00:14
MinceRprobably nothing until you bind something to itDec 09 00:16
MinceRlike the ThinkVantage (or Access IBM) keysDec 09 00:16
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DaemonFC[m]MinceR: Looks like they anticipated Windows RATs.Dec 09 00:17
DaemonFC[m]There's a privacy shutter on the webcam.Dec 09 00:17
MinceRRAT?Dec 09 00:17
DaemonFC[m]Remote Access TrojanDec 09 00:18
MinceR 09 00:18
-TechrightsBot-tr/#techrights-Have Some Cheese, RAT! - YouTubeDec 09 00:18
DaemonFC[m]A principle at a high school was recording teenagers naked in their bedrooms at home via a RAT that the school put on their laptops;Dec 09 00:18
DaemonFC[m]I think he went to prison for that.Dec 09 00:18
DaemonFC[m]Sorry, Cartman....Dec 09 00:19
DaemonFC[m]I think this is the one thing being a white man can't get out of by saying "I misinterpreted the rules.".Dec 09 00:19
oiaohmDaemonFC[m]: x86 as Nvidia found out there are no licenses on the open market to buy.Dec 09 00:38
oiaohmNvidia had the idea at one point of making their own x86 cpu.Dec 09 00:38
oiaohmThis is also why Intel tried to go after qualcom for x86 emulation on arm as that gets around the patent wall around making your own x86.Dec 09 00:39
oiaohmTo be correct you can legally make a 486 or 586 but that it.   Basically 20 year old x86 or risk running into patents.Dec 09 00:39
psydroidfor more alternatives to thrive x86 must die, it's been like a millstone around the semiconductor industry's head for far too longDec 09 00:42
psydroidand Windows should die along with itDec 09 00:42
oiaohmReally with Nvidia buying arm moving to arm may not be a good long term solution either.Dec 09 00:43
psydroidI don't think we should move to anything in particularDec 09 00:45
psydroidwe need ISA diversity and competitionDec 09 00:46
psydroidalthough I prefer free and open instruction setsDec 09 00:47
psydroid 09 00:47
-TechrightsBot-tr/ | HiFive Unmatched | Crowd SupplyDec 09 00:47
psydroidI didn't realise the board came with 16 GB of RAMDec 09 00:48
psydroida few more iterations and this stuff should be viable for people looking for alternativesDec 09 00:49
oiaohmpsydroid: that a new update that the hifive board is 16GB instead of 8GB.Dec 09 00:50
oiaohmpsydroid:  really recent change.Dec 09 00:50
-TechrightsBot-tr/#techrights-SiFive's RISC-V HiFive Unmatched Upgraded To Ship With 16GB Of RAM - PhoronixDec 09 00:50
psydroidoiaohm, I noticed that, yesDec 09 00:51
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Ariadnemeanwhile at deploracle: 09 00:57
-TechrightsBot-tr/ | Oracle Linux: A better alternative to CentOSDec 09 00:57
Ariadnethats one hell of a fucking power moveDec 09 00:57
MinceR:>Dec 09 01:05
MinceRObstacleDec 09 01:05
search_socialRun the following as root:Dec 09 01:12
search_socialcurl -O 09 01:12
search_socialsh centos2ol.shDec 09 01:12
search_socialreminds me of the instructions to compile firefoxDec 09 01:13
psyminheheDec 09 01:16
Ariadneits ok, curl | sh is how cpanel is deployedDec 09 01:17
Ariadneand like 90% of centos deployments are for running cpanel anywayDec 09 01:17
DaemonFC[m]Why does this 1920 x 1080 screen look so much nicer than that HiDPI one on my other laptop?Dec 09 01:31
DaemonFC[m]<oiaohm "To be correct you can legally ma"> That puts us at least to Pentium 4.Dec 09 01:33
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DaemonFC[m]Okay, I have the latest BIOS installed.Dec 09 01:49
XRevan86DaemonFC[m]: That's pretty high resolution as well. Maybe it's generally a good screen, I don't know. Resolution isn't everything.Dec 09 01:51
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oiaohmDaemonFC[m]: depends on the patent system 20-21 years.   So Pentium 4 is end of next year to be sure you are  clear.Dec 09 03:03
oiaohmDaemonFC[m]: for existing designs that are open there are 486 and 586.  There are no pent II or Pent III designs out there.Dec 09 03:04
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search_socialare you saying that if i had a few million to spend on a slave labor shop in china i could make old pentium processors legally?Dec 09 03:27
DaemonFC[m]Probably.Dec 09 03:38
search_sociali should get some laptops with non phone home processors while they existDec 09 03:39
DaemonFC[m]I won't lie, this is the least amount of shitware I've seen an OEM put on a new computer.Dec 09 03:41
DaemonFC[m]Trial antivirus and MS Office trial.Dec 09 03:41
DaemonFC[m]Both removed.Dec 09 03:41
DaemonFC[m]Several years ago, the average number of bloatware apps on a new PC was 27, and a few years before that, some were coming with 30 or 40.Dec 09 03:42
DaemonFC[m]It was so bad at one point that one of those Apple ads had the PC guy in a fat suit and he says "Hold on, it's all this trial software. They packed me full of it. I can barely move.".Dec 09 03:42
DaemonFC[m]But it's a business laptop with Windows 10 Pro on it, so they probably don't get away with the same junk that a lot of those bargain basement people do.Dec 09 03:45
DaemonFC[m]Another thing I noticed is that Bitlocker is on by default.Dec 09 03:45
oiaohmsearch_social:  you would not have to 100 percent start from nothing either.Dec 09 03:54
-TechrightsBot-tr/ | Overview :: v586 :: OpenCoresDec 09 03:54
DaemonFC[m]BTW, I tried out Edge just for the hell of it.Dec 09 03:56
search_socialthanksDec 09 03:56
DaemonFC[m]It seems Microsoft has mostly managed to attract the more popular extensions from Chrome into their store.Dec 09 03:56
DaemonFC[m]But there's still a setting to allow unsigned extensions in Edge and a setting to allow from other stores.Dec 09 03:57
DaemonFC[m]Microsoft claims they can't vouch for the security of extensions from other stores.Dec 09 03:57
DaemonFC[m]Which is the same thing Google said about Microsoft's store.Dec 09 03:57
DaemonFC[m]Firefox seems to work better on Windows.Dec 09 04:04
DaemonFC[m]That may just be because this is such a fast computer, but on my Yoga laptop with Linux, Firefox was still using XRENDER with basic compositing.Dec 09 04:05
search_socialIgaliaDec 09 04:47
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DaemonFC[m] 09 05:29
-TechrightsBot-tr/ | LibreOffice 7.0: Release Notes - The Document Foundation WikiDec 09 05:29
DaemonFC[m]Major improvements to Microsoft Office compatibility.Dec 09 05:30
DaemonFC[m]I have no idea who would pay $299 for a license for MS Office 2019 or $69 a year for 365.Dec 09 05:30
schestowitzDaemonFC[m]: 2,913Dec 09 05:33
schestowitzyesterdayDec 09 05:33
schestowitzwhat's the highest?Dec 09 05:33
schestowitzI did not check in a while...Dec 09 05:33
search_socialschools doDec 09 05:40
DaemonFC[m]Last week I think we got a 2967 or something one day.Dec 09 05:49
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TechrightsBot-trHello World! I'm TechrightsBot-tr running phIRCe v0.77Dec 09 06:09
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schestowitzShould we write something about IBM sort of killing off CentOS?Dec 09 06:38
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Techrights-secYes, CentOS has been a major distro.Dec 09 07:11
Techrights-secDevuan and the other freedom (as in free-from-systemd) distros could be highlighted in the article.Dec 09 07:18
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search_sociali'm running devuanDec 09 07:26
DaemonFC[m]schestowitz: Those people who took over Higan and moved it to github changed the license from GPL v3 to ISC.Dec 09 07:32
schestowitzAre they the same people?Dec 09 07:32
schestowitzI don't think you can fork a project with the same name, so I assume it wasn't movedDec 09 07:32
schestowitzmaybe frozen developmentDec 09 07:32
schestowitzthen a successor made for itDec 09 07:33
Techrights-sec 09 07:33
-TechrightsBot-tr/ | A brief history of Red Hat, Fedora and CentOS - Michael Cutler's personal websiteDec 09 07:33
DaemonFC[m]byuu seems to submit patches occasionally, but he must have given them permission to change the license.Dec 09 07:33
DaemonFC[m]That's unfortunate. Dec 09 07:33
schestowitzshithub is an attack on us anywayDec 09 07:34
schestowitzand that's hardly newsDec 09 07:34
DaemonFC[m]I remember him saying some company that made proprietary software wanted an emulator for some retro games for modern consoles.Dec 09 07:34
schestowitzMicrosoft bought shithub for a reasonDec 09 07:34
schestowitzthey lose money on itDec 09 07:34
schestowitzbut it's about controlDec 09 07:34
DaemonFC[m]Wouldn't touch the GPL and didn't want to pay him for an exception.Dec 09 07:34
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Techrights-sec 09 07:39
Techrights-sec 09 07:39
Techrights-sec 09 07:39
Techrights-sec 09 07:39
-TechrightsBot-tr/ | [Centos] CentOS-2 Final finally releasedDec 09 07:39
-TechrightsBot-tr/ | FAQ/General - CentOS WikiDec 09 07:39
-TechrightsBot-tr/ | CentOS Linux Project In Trouble - nixCraftDec 09 07:39
-TechrightsBot-tr/ | CentOS back from brink of death • The RegisterDec 09 07:39
Techrights-sec 09 07:39
-TechrightsBot-tr/#techrights-CentOS Linux developers threaten mutiny - CNETDec 09 07:39
Techrights-sec 09 07:39
-TechrightsBot-tr/#techrights-CentOS Project shifts focus to CentOS Stream – Blog.CentOS.orgDec 09 07:39
schestowitz,-users-frustrated-and-angry.htmlDec 09 07:40
schestowitz 09 07:40
-TechrightsBot-tr/#techrights-iTWire - Red Hat kills off CentOS; users frustrated, angry and annoyedDec 09 07:40
-TechrightsBot-tr/#techrights-iTWire - CentOS dumping tells us Red Hat has only dollar signs in its sightsDec 09 07:40
Techrights-sec 09 07:40
-TechrightsBot-tr/ | CentOS Stream: Building an innovative future for enterprise LinuxDec 09 07:40
Techrights-sec 09 07:41
-TechrightsBot-tr/ | Red Hat and the CentOS Project Join Forces to Speed Open Source InnovationDec 09 07:41
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vZS1Debian works alright on new hardware, but you need to enable "contrib" and "non-free" in "/etc/apt/sources.list"Dec 09 08:42
vZS1Most WiFi cards have only binary blobs as drivers.Dec 09 08:44
vZS1So you kind of either need to use the blobs or use a usb WiFi module.Dec 09 08:45
Ariadnei have intel wireless module and it works fine with just a firmware blob.  no ndis or non-free repo neededDec 09 10:42
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MinceR 09 13:59
MinceR 09 14:38
-TechrightsBot-tr/ | Full Frontal Nerdity by Aaron Williams - 11/19/2019Dec 09 14:38
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MinceR(cat) 09 15:20
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notanamberhey schestowitz I no longer see your feed on mastodon...the connection with on firefox fails due to sslDec 09 15:25
notanamberare a few days...Dec 09 15:25
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oiaohmvZS1:  to be correct most wifi drivers have binary firmware blobs.   This is different to Nvidia binary blob mess. Dec 09 15:52
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oiaohmIts also annoying how often people claim to be using firmware binary blob free and realy what they have done is built a system using the firmware blobs on the rom in the cards that is technically out of date.Dec 09 15:54
MinceRout of date isn't always a bad thingDec 09 15:54
oiaohmIt is when its out of date wifi using known flawed encryption without telling the user.Dec 09 15:56
oiaohmLot of wifi cards drop the on card firmware so you cannot do that stupidity.Dec 09 15:57
oiaohmwithout running out of date drivers as well.Dec 09 15:57
MinceRso they can force you to download the newest blobDec 09 15:57
MinceRor rather, provide it via a storage device, because your system can't connect to a network yetDec 09 15:58
MinceRvery smart thinking!Dec 09 15:58
oiaohmThe firmware blob without a driver to use it in the OS in most cases totally useless.Dec 09 16:01
oiaohmMost wifi vendors doing this have provide the blobs under license allowing any OS to distribute them.Dec 09 16:02
oiaohmOS version is likely newer than the version that could have been writtin into flash/rom on the card.Dec 09 16:03
oiaohmfrom the factory.Dec 09 16:03
MinceR 09 16:03
-TechrightsBot-tr/ | Full Frontal Nerdity by Aaron Williams - 12/24/2019Dec 09 16:03
MinceRand so i just plug in my Wi-Pi to do the install, and it worksDec 09 16:04
oiaohmMost does if you are using like debian non-free with the blobs installed.Dec 09 16:06
oiaohmI am waiting to see with driverless printing how long until we have driverless printers needing firmware updates to fix major security flaws.Dec 09 16:07
MinceRshould be easy with postscriptDec 09 16:07
MinceRif only printer makers weren't too cheap to include postscript interpretersDec 09 16:07
oiaohmThat not exactly true.Dec 09 16:08
oiaohmpdf instead of postscript started happneding in cups due to need to encode color space information.Dec 09 16:08
MinceRgreatDec 09 16:09
oiaohmIt would be good if all printers supported PDF/XDec 09 16:09
oiaohmbasically that is postscript + the color space stuff.Dec 09 16:09
MinceRi'll never forget my D&D PDFs always failing to display the capital 'A' in a certain type of heading in any viewer except adobe's because PDF isn't really "portable"Dec 09 16:09
oiaohmPDF is not just one standard.Dec 09 16:10
MinceRit would be better to have a community-based extension to PS that adds the color space stuffDec 09 16:10
MinceRall of them are claimed to be "portable" by adobe, thoughDec 09 16:10
oiaohmPDF is a container.Dec 09 16:10
MinceRPS was their final show of competenceDec 09 16:10
oiaohmkind of like MP4.Dec 09 16:10
oiaohmWhat is PDF/<this bit after the the slash>   is really the codec inside.Dec 09 16:11
MinceRit was also a stroke of genius when they decided that in some versions of the "Portable" Document Format, there was no need to include certain fontsDec 09 16:11
MinceR"Portable"... to the computer you created it on. unless you changed the fonts.Dec 09 16:11
oiaohmMade sense in the time frame of dialup to reduce document size.Dec 09 16:12
MinceRkind of like microshit's "Portable" ExecutableDec 09 16:12
MinceRwhich will run on any system, as long as it's the windows version it's for.Dec 09 16:12
oiaohmThe biggest screw up with PDF is PDF forms.Dec 09 16:12
MinceR(as long as you still have the exact same DLLs installed, that is, because they couldn't figure out how to do shared libraries properly either)Dec 09 16:12
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oiaohmTo be correct Linux distributions don't really do shared libraries the best either.Dec 09 16:13
MinceRthey do them much better than Backdoors thoughDec 09 16:14
oiaohmSXS in windows with its mainfests is fair in effectiveness dealing with the multi version problem.Dec 09 16:14
oiaohmWe are seeing Linux go the container route for the same thing.Dec 09 16:15
oiaohmApple from memory also went the container route.Dec 09 16:15
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MinceRleaving ancient library files around, hidden in subdirectories, that will never get security updates, as standard practice?Dec 09 16:15
MinceRreally great.Dec 09 16:15
MinceRyeah, putting the version number in the filename was _really_ difficultDec 09 16:16
MinceRas was finding objects by name instead of offset or indexDec 09 16:16
DaemonFC[m]The sxs folder is compressed.Dec 09 16:16
MinceReven betterDec 09 16:16
DaemonFC[m]So the on disk footprint isn't as big as it would seem.Dec 09 16:16
MinceRleave no chance for the package manager to update anythingDec 09 16:17
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MinceRthen there's the whole rewriting memory addresses randomly businessDec 09 16:17
MinceRbecause position-independent code was not invented in redmondDec 09 16:17
MinceR 09 16:23
-TechrightsBot-tr/ | Full Frontal Nerdity by Aaron Williams - 12/31/2019Dec 09 16:23
oiaohmReally Linux you put version number after library then you simlink  then all application use the .1 verison   so when you install it now changes and since it has a ABI breaking change a stack of applications now fail.Dec 09 16:24
oiaohmThis comes from Unix and kind renders the version after library almost useless.Dec 09 16:24
MinceRif you make an ABI breaking change in a library, you're supposed to increment the major version numberDec 09 16:25
oiaohmThat if you know you have made a ABI breaking change.Dec 09 16:25
MinceRif you don't, stop developing librariesDec 09 16:25
oiaohmIts sometimes impossible to know how applications developers have exploited your library.Dec 09 16:25
MinceRor get help from someone who knowsDec 09 16:25
MinceRif applications use a library in a different way from the official interface, they deserve to breakDec 09 16:26
oiaohmIf that application users 100 percent needs they are screwed then.Dec 09 16:26
oiaohmMulti version problem of libraries is a serous pain in the ass.Dec 09 16:27
oiaohmI really wish the Unix guys had done that link short version.Dec 09 16:27
MinceRif the application is so broken, it might as well carry its own copy of the library and be vulnerableDec 09 16:27
oiaohmSo you link to the full library so.1.2.3Dec 09 16:27
oiaohmand if new version is compadilbe you symlink it to new version Dec 09 16:27
MinceRand that's how your applications won't get security fixes to their librariesDec 09 16:27
oiaohmThat would have been nicely abi stable.Dec 09 16:28
oiaohmOk messy to a point.Dec 09 16:28
oiaohmAlso those symlinks would not have had to exist either the dymamic linker could have been made smart enough if exact version was not installed to look for newer version use than and inform user application was built with older version.Dec 09 16:32
MinceRsymlinks are far simplerDec 09 16:32
oiaohmsymlinking to the .1 and the like then having the application linked against the point 1 you cannot just do a command on a binary and go this program was built with X version of library.Dec 09 16:33
oiaohmThat is quite annoying bug to me.Dec 09 16:33
oiaohmNot like ELF format says it has to exist.Dec 09 16:34
schestowitz[15:25] <notanamber> hey schestowitz I no longer see your feed on mastodon...the connection with on firefox fails due to sslDec 09 16:41
schestowitzAriadne: the site is still down, but I'm happy he had a backup and can wait for hrefDec 09 16:41
MinceR 09 16:43
XRevan86MinceR: A sticker of a hores instead of a drawing? How lame.Dec 09 16:44
MinceR:)Dec 09 16:45
cybrNautMastodon instances and accounts have been ranked on the number of CloudFlare links mentioned: 09 16:50
-TechrightsBot-tr/#techrights-crimeflare/stop_cloudflare: Resist Cloudflare or submit. - subfiles/ at master - stop_cloudflare - Codeberg.orgDec 09 16:50
MinceRnice siteDec 09 16:57
schestowitzyupDec 09 17:03
cybrNautit's quite surprising that some Mastodon nodes have zero CloudFlare links in any of the tootsDec 09 17:08
Ariadne 09 17:11
-TechrightsBot-tr/ | The RHEL ProjectDec 09 17:11
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schestowitzAriadne: several fork-ishs it seemsDec 09 17:14
schestowitzRocky LinuxDec 09 17:14
schestowitzthat's the one from centos' founderDec 09 17:14
MinceRstrangeDec 09 17:15
schestowitzapparently some more effortsDec 09 17:15
MinceRone would think they've taken to heart the core tenet of their OS (systemd) already: no choice but "standardization"Dec 09 17:15
MinceR(cat) 09 17:21
-TechrightsBot-tr/#techrights-Your snuggies have arrived. - Album on ImgurDec 09 17:21
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MinceR 09 17:43
XRevan86 what did I say?Dec 09 17:46
-TechrightsBot-tr/#techrights-CentOS Project shifts focus to CentOS Stream – Blog.CentOS.orgDec 09 17:46
schestowitzgithubDec 09 17:54
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XRevan86There's practically nothing in there. Maybe they'll change to their own infrastructure once they get their own infrastucture. Or maybe not, who knows.Dec 09 18:05
XRevan86The important to me part is that it seems IBM will get nothing but bad PR from killing CentOS. The king is dead, long live the king, that sort of thing.Dec 09 18:06
XRevan86Rocky Linux is not a cool name though.Dec 09 18:08
schestowitzIt's not too rockyDec 09 18:10
schestowitzalmost stableDec 09 18:10
schestowitzAlmost-stable Linux(TM)Dec 09 18:10
schestowitzMaybe they meant it's hard like a rockDec 09 18:10
MinceRwell, it is never going to be stable with systemdDec 09 18:12
XRevan86Why not KudOS ?Dec 09 18:12
MinceR(or rpm, for that matter)Dec 09 18:12
MinceRkraftlOSDec 09 18:12
MinceRor even just POSDec 09 18:12
XRevan86KopeckOSDec 09 18:13
schestowitzdimeOSDec 09 18:14
schestowitzquarterosDec 09 18:14
schestowitznicklosDec 09 18:14
MinceRNSAOSDec 09 18:14
schestowitzshillOSDec 09 18:14
XRevan86PoundOS, nextgenDec 09 18:14
schestowitzshillingOSDec 09 18:14
MinceRsystemd-distrodDec 09 18:14
schestowitzlolDec 09 18:14
schestowitzspat my teaDec 09 18:15
oiaohmXRevan86: there is no such thing as 100 percent bad PR.Dec 09 18:15
XRevan86100 percent is one centDec 09 18:15
XRevan86that's not true, and the joke didn't work eitherDec 09 18:16
MinceRtencentDec 09 18:17
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XRevan86percentosDec 09 18:19
MinceR 09 18:19
MinceROverpricedOSDec 09 18:19
MinceR(even though it's gratis)Dec 09 18:19
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MinceR 09 18:39
schestowitz"fuck the pope"Dec 09 18:44
DaemonFC[m]CentOS Stream sounds like a way to keep CentOS around but turn it into the "Insider Builds" (Windows term) of RHEL.Dec 09 18:50
DaemonFC[m]Red Hat probably figures that there's no reason to keep it around anyway since you can apparently use RHEL for free with no support contracts.Dec 09 18:50
schestowitz[??] <DaemonFC[m]> Red Hat probably figures >>>Dec 09 18:50
schestowitzThere's no Red HatDec 09 18:50
schestowitzit's an IBM decisionDec 09 18:51
schestowitzBut they opened up an opportunity for another zero-cost clone -- one that is not IBM-controlledDec 09 18:51
DaemonFC[m]Even before IBM, Red Hat was making aggressive moves to frustrate community rebuilds, like making what's actually in their kernel a secret.Dec 09 18:52
schestowitzmaybe they can throw a Swedish wrentch into systemd or somethingDec 09 18:52
schestowitzsomething only Red Hat knows how to fixDec 09 18:52
DaemonFC[m]You can't really pour over 30 million lines of code and get a good overview of what they did even though it complies with the GPL.Dec 09 18:52
DaemonFC[m]They knew how to comply minimally and game the system.Dec 09 18:52
schestowitzSUSE was the same  Dec 09 18:52
schestowitzwe pointed this out like 13 years agoDec 09 18:52
schestowitzbecause they limited access to full sourceDec 09 18:53
schestowitzjust enough to sort of complyDec 09 18:53
DaemonFC[m]It was really directed at Oracle, which is why they started doing their own kernel and including the "Red Hat Compatible Kernel" even though they claimed the Oracle Kernel was Red Hat compatible.Dec 09 18:53
DaemonFC[m]Then Red Hat turned that into a selling point. "See, they don't know what we've done or if they're even compatible!".Dec 09 18:53
schestowitzOracle is a good excuseDec 09 18:54
schestowitzmidn youDec 09 18:54
schestowitzhappened around the same time as the Novell dealDec 09 18:54
schestowitziirc, about a month apartDec 09 18:54
schestowitzellison going red hat red hat red hat red hat red hat red hat Dec 09 18:54
DaemonFC[m]You've always been able to compile custom kernels on any Linux distribution, but you have no idea if you actually are 100% compatible with that distribution anymore.Dec 09 18:55
schestowitzunbreakable they called itDec 09 18:55
DaemonFC[m]So Oracle is doing false and misleading advertising.Dec 09 18:55
schestowitzOracle supports TrumpDec 09 18:55
DaemonFC[m]Because even if the policy is we don't break userspace, it has happened before.Dec 09 18:55
schestowitzthat's all I need to know about OracleDec 09 18:55
DaemonFC[m]And sometimes they don't even notice it upstream for months.Dec 09 18:55
schestowitzand avoid everything with the Oracle logoDec 09 18:55
DaemonFC[m]Breakage can be obvious or it can be subtle.Dec 09 18:55
DaemonFC[m]If it's subtle then it can crop up only when you run a very specific workload.Dec 09 18:56
DaemonFC[m]It's impossible to screw around with the kernel at the pace they develop the kernel at and claim that userspace never breaks, at all.Dec 09 18:56
DaemonFC[m]It does, and then nobody realizes it for a while.Dec 09 18:57
DaemonFC[m]There isn't an operating system out there that never has a breaking change.Dec 09 18:57
DaemonFC[m]There's a difference between giving it a good effort at backwards compatibility to a reasonable extent and not giving a shit at all and breaking everything all the time and you should be using the App Store anyway (Apple).Dec 09 18:57
DaemonFC[m]I think it's very telling that Microsoft even didn't push to remove the legacy Windows 2000/XP audio stack model until recently. It's deprecated. It'll be removed at some point.Dec 09 18:58
DaemonFC[m]foobar2000 went and got out ahead of that, and it ended up accidentally solving a whole bunch of problems with it running under Wine.Dec 09 18:58
DaemonFC[m]I'm skeptical of the non-LTS releases of Linux distributions these days.Dec 09 19:00
DaemonFC[m]It used to be that even those generally worked fine.Dec 09 19:01
schestowitzdepends on your needsDec 09 19:01
schestowitzyou can be awkward imeDec 09 19:01
schestowitzlike, you say you worry about driver blobsDec 09 19:01
DaemonFC[m]But with the rapid quality degradation that new software from IBM Red Hat is bringing in, I think you really need to be another step removed from it.Dec 09 19:01
schestowitzand then you install Microsoft EdgeDec 09 19:01
schestowitzand I guess you add Microsoft PPAsDec 09 19:02
MinceRand Microsoft LinuxDec 09 19:02
MinceRfrom the Microsoft Linux FoundationDec 09 19:02
schestowitzyou say you want stability, but you most f* around with your Microsoft-branded machines..Dec 09 19:02
DaemonFC[m]Out of tree drivers are a very serious problem, whether they are Free Software or not.Dec 09 19:02
schestowitzyou do no serious work on your PC AFAIKDec 09 19:02
schestowitznot paid work or anything very critical (that I could see)Dec 09 19:03
DaemonFC[m]Canonical claims they can support ZFS and that they are very proud of it, but their blog kind of hints that it's a total hack held together with bird shit and duct tape.Dec 09 19:03
schestowitzso if the PC would not start, your job would not be at riskDec 09 19:03
schestowitzmine wouldDec 09 19:03
DaemonFC[m]Very fragile. They noted what they had to do to get grub working with their "bpool" setup and then they had to stop users from upgrading the pool else the system would no longer work.Dec 09 19:04
DaemonFC[m]I mean, who wants to deploy something like that?Dec 09 19:04
DaemonFC[m]You want to talk about maybe your system doesn't boot up. This ZFS on Linux thing is just total crackpot stuff.Dec 09 19:04
DaemonFC[m]And I think they're throwing it out there to try to differentiate themselves when it's not legal, it doesn't work well, they can't guarantee that customers that roll it out won't have a total disaster on their hands eventually.Dec 09 19:05
DaemonFC[m]All the while, they could just use BtrFS and constructively collaborate to make it better.Dec 09 19:05
DaemonFC[m]Ext4 is not aging well, and managing LVM is a nightmare.Dec 09 19:06
MinceRhave they stopped pretending that btrfs is oh so stable yet?Dec 09 19:06
schestowitzwho needs these at home?Dec 09 19:06
DaemonFC[m]If you like backing up corrupt data and having no transparent compression or integrated volume management, Ext4 is the file system for you.Dec 09 19:06
MinceRit's difficult to fix issues while pretending they don't existDec 09 19:06
schestowitzin 10 years I almost never had to fetch a file from a backup stackDec 09 19:07
DaemonFC[m]I'm chipping away at this backup hard drive.Dec 09 19:07
MinceRi like a file system that doesn't shit itself in a week and doesn't use tons of RAMDec 09 19:07
schestowitzand most people don't do versioning of settings filesDec 09 19:07
MinceRso, ext4 (or ext3)Dec 09 19:07
schestowitzif they do, they know how to use gitDec 09 19:07
DaemonFC[m]I've thrown a lot of crap on it in the years that I don't even need anymore.Dec 09 19:07
DaemonFC[m]I'm almost certainly going to use btrfs on my external backup drives at some point.Dec 09 19:07
DaemonFC[m]It's working fine on the laptop's SSD.Dec 09 19:08
DaemonFC[m]Most of these modern laptops have an SSD and they just don't have hard drive levels of storage.Dec 09 19:09
DaemonFC[m]Operating system partitions at the very least should be compressed because you can see a staggering compression ratio doing things that way.Dec 09 19:10
DaemonFC[m]And since BtrFS is drawing from a complete pool, you win again, because you don't have to guess high or low about how much space each partition is going to need.Dec 09 19:10
DaemonFC[m]Whatever happens, it cuts right on the line. Nothing wastes.Dec 09 19:10
DaemonFC[m]*wastedDec 09 19:11
DaemonFC[m]And now, Fedora's new "no on disk SWAP setup promises some more wins. Like, not eating up 16 GB of your SSD for something that you'll hardly use.Dec 09 19:11
MinceRor you could just use a single filesystemDec 09 19:11
schestowitzk.i.s.s.Dec 09 19:12
schestowitzI don't want an opaque fsDec 09 19:12
DaemonFC[m]It just fixes a lot of problems, and the smaller the capacity of your SSD, the more cramped it's going to get if you use a traditional Linux file system.Dec 09 19:12
schestowitzthat compressed my dataDec 09 19:12
schestowitzand complicates thingsDec 09 19:12
schestowitzand isn't compatible with some toolingDec 09 19:12
schestowitzunless I have some urgent need for a feature in itDec 09 19:12
schestowitzon servers that are some applications that could use rollbackDec 09 19:13
schestowitznot on desktopsDec 09 19:13
DaemonFC[m]zstandard is so lightweight you don't even notice it on my old laptop, which is based on Intel's 6th generation mobile platform.Dec 09 19:13
schestowitzfacebookDec 09 19:13
schestowitz > /dev/null/Dec 09 19:13
DaemonFC[m]You can use snapshots with it, but you certainly don't have to.Dec 09 19:13
DaemonFC[m]I don't.Dec 09 19:13
schestowitzlz4Dec 09 19:13
schestowitzDual: BSD License + GPLv2Dec 09 19:14
DaemonFC[m]lz4 is what NTFS Compression uses.Dec 09 19:14
DaemonFC[m]And it's very slow.Dec 09 19:14
schestowitzYann Collet at FacebookDec 09 19:14
schestowitzspies make itDec 09 19:14
schestowitzthey can go where the sun won't shineDec 09 19:14
DaemonFC[m]That's why instead of compressing the entire file system, Microsoft has selectively applied it to certain Windows subfolders where the bloat is just too awful to live with.Dec 09 19:14
DaemonFC[m]Such as side by side assemblies.Dec 09 19:14
schestowitzit's like picking esoteric reiserfsDec 09 19:14
schestowitzunless the man behind is chops down the wifeDec 09 19:15
schestowitzI used reiserfs in suse ages agoDec 09 19:15
schestowitzext2 was used as standard at the time Dec 09 19:15
schestowitzeven suse dropped itDec 09 19:15
DaemonFC[m]Yeah, Ext2 and Ext3 were crap.Dec 09 19:15
DaemonFC[m]They could have done several things much more efficiently without disturbing the on disk format and made bizarre performance-killing choices in the drivers that they never did bother to change.Dec 09 19:16
DaemonFC[m]Linux is not guilt-free in the "Who the hell thought that was a good idea?" department, and it predates systemd and Pulseaudio.Dec 09 19:17
DaemonFC[m]To say otherwise is pretty revisionist.Dec 09 19:17
MinceRand yet they didn't shit themselves in a weekDec 09 19:17
MinceRunlike btrfsDec 09 19:17
MinceRand they didn't eat all your RAMDec 09 19:17
MinceRunlike zfsDec 09 19:17
DaemonFC[m]The block allocator in the Ext2 and Ext3 drivers could have used some improvements.Dec 09 19:17
MinceRi'll take "could use some improvements" over "totally unusable" any dayDec 09 19:18
DaemonFC[m]Like allocating multiple blocks at once and using extents.Dec 09 19:18
MinceRbut that's just meDec 09 19:18
DaemonFC[m]Which were hardly unknown at the time.Dec 09 19:18
DaemonFC[m]You could pre-allocate space for the entire file by writing it full of zeroes iirc with those file systems, but you had no idea where the blocks themselves would end up or if they would actually be contiguous because the block allocator had to be called for each block and it just put it wherever it did.Dec 09 19:19
DaemonFC[m]Delayed allocation is where Ext4 brought in some extra potential for data loss.Dec 09 19:20
MinceRyeah, i disable thatDec 09 19:20
DaemonFC[m]It never did really get fixed, they just changed it so it doesn't wait as long before writing out.Dec 09 19:20
DaemonFC[m]I tried all sorts of things to get away from Ext3.Dec 09 19:21
DaemonFC[m]I tried ReiserFS, JFS, and XFS.Dec 09 19:21
MinceRXFS was pretty good at losing data as wellDec 09 19:21
DaemonFC[m]All of them had catastrophic failure cases.Dec 09 19:21
DaemonFC[m]But at least JFS was pretty light on its CPU demands, which mattered a lot when we were all using slow single core CPUs.Dec 09 19:22
DaemonFC[m]schestowitz: Well, that depends on what you call critical.Dec 09 19:23
DaemonFC[m]It kind of sucks when the government says hey use this file and don't worry, you can just use Adobe Reader or Microsoft Word. Dec 09 19:23
DaemonFC[m]The fact is that GNOME and KDE only recently even got workable fillable form support for PDF.Dec 09 19:24
DaemonFC[m]Do you know what kind of a nightmare it is to fill out immigration benefit requests?Dec 09 19:24
DaemonFC[m]The pages just go on and on, and if it's at all unclear what you wrote or what you meant, they can deny it or stall you out.Dec 09 19:24
DaemonFC[m]Maybe you start missing deadlines. It's nasty.Dec 09 19:24
DaemonFC[m]I don't really want to play Devil's Advocate for Windows 10 of all things.Dec 09 19:25
MinceRthey might be solving this the other wayDec 09 19:25
DaemonFC[m]In fact, it's just a privacy disaster, honestly. The stability and overall GUI competence seems to have improved a lot in the last 5 years, but the privacy has gotten worse.Dec 09 19:26
MinceRby making nobody want to immigrate to or stay in uhmericaDec 09 19:26
DaemonFC[m]There's knobs all over the place, and then I realized that after I turned most of them off in the setup, when I went to the Settings menu, it had flipped most of them back on again somewhere.Dec 09 19:26
DaemonFC[m]Chromium Edge certainly isn't as awful as Internet Explorer was, but I can still see why few people use it.Dec 09 19:27
DaemonFC[m]The rendering performance of Firefox is pretty good. Dec 09 19:28
schestowitzMinceR: some people like CheetosDec 09 19:28
DaemonFC[m]It doesn't appear, to me, that Microsoft has any sort of "unfair advantage" there like they did with IE.Dec 09 19:28
schestowitzand I know some in Europe who wanted to move there for CheetosDec 09 19:28
MinceRschestowitz: they can get it outside uhmericaDec 09 19:28
schestowitznoDec 09 19:28
schestowitzthis one is a personDec 09 19:28
schestowitzthey adore himDec 09 19:28
DaemonFC[m]Remember when they preloaded IE's crap with the shell so that it appeared IE would start immediately while Netscape or any other browser took like 5-6 times as long?Dec 09 19:28
MinceRoh, that oneDec 09 19:28
MinceRwell, he said he's going to emigrateDec 09 19:29
DaemonFC[m]I've done okay with Immigration so far.Dec 09 19:29
DaemonFC[m]They approved Mandy's EAD renewal through March 6th of 2022.Dec 09 19:29
DaemonFC[m]I put some stank on that one because I knew that Trump would either lose the election and try his best to cause as many problems as possible on the way out -or- he'd win and have 4 years to cause as many problems as he liked.Dec 09 19:30
schestowitztrump won the electionDec 09 19:30
schestowitzbut it was stolen, according to trumpDec 09 19:30
DaemonFC[m]I knew either way it would get bad, so I hurried.Dec 09 19:30
DaemonFC[m]4 more years would have been far worse.Dec 09 19:30
schestowitzyou don't get rid of con jobs without more consDec 09 19:30
DaemonFC[m]Instead of monkeying around for two months and nothing ultimately sticks he's be able to sharpen the knife, get someone actually legally appointed, and implement the worst rules possible in accordance with the regulatory procedure.Dec 09 19:31
DaemonFC[m]If you have 4 years it's easier than having it all come apart at the end of your term with no time to try again.Dec 09 19:31
DaemonFC[m]So, I made my decision accordingly.Dec 09 19:32
MinceR(cat) (audio) 09 19:32
DaemonFC[m]Trump did a rush job and was incredibly sloppy, and now most of it is being voided even before Biden gets sworn in, schestowitz Dec 09 19:32
DaemonFC[m]But with 4 more years, I don't think we could rely on him making the same mistakes twice.Dec 09 19:33
DaemonFC[m]We just got relatively lucky once.Dec 09 19:33
DaemonFC[m]The courts obviously give him too much power, but they're not going to ignore gross violations of the law.Dec 09 19:34
DaemonFC[m]Not even one of his three judges on the Supreme Court is lifting a finger to give any pretense of legitimacy to his "stolen election" farce.Dec 09 19:34
DaemonFC[m]<schestowitz "you don't get rid of con jobs wi"> Well, Biden needs to make some inroads with minority voters, for sure.Dec 09 19:35
DaemonFC[m]Trump actually did BETTER with them the second time. He lost a lot of white voters that supported him in 2016, which was more than his gain among minorities.Dec 09 19:35
DaemonFC[m]Including taking the biggest share of the other party's voters since 1992.Dec 09 19:36
DaemonFC[m]Biden did.Dec 09 19:36
DaemonFC[m]So, uh, he's going to have a juggling act. He can't count on white Republicans who just couldn't stand Trump anymore and voted accordingly because they didn't like Trump, unless maybe Trump does come back.Dec 09 19:37
DaemonFC[m]He underperformed with minorities and overperformed with white voters vs. the average for a Democratic candidate.Dec 09 19:38
DaemonFC[m]And even at that, further down the ballot it was a disaster for the Democrats.Dec 09 19:38
DaemonFC[m]Biden didn't have coattails and he'll be the first president since George H.W. Bush took office in 1989 to not have his own party in control of Congress.Dec 09 19:39
DaemonFC[m]I don't think, fundamentally, that those Biden Republicans have had a change of heart on immigrants or anything.Dec 09 19:40
DaemonFC[m]There's mixed data about Republicans coming around on gay rights.Dec 09 19:40
DaemonFC[m]So it's still pretty scary out there.Dec 09 19:40
DaemonFC[m]There's still going to be Nazis marching through the street. It's just that the President of the United States, for four years anyway, won't be egging them on.Dec 09 19:41
DaemonFC[m]schestowitz: As far as Linux, we need a lot of things, but the infrastructure in some parts is very solid, and in other parts it's full of lulz.Dec 09 19:42
DaemonFC[m]And the people adding the lulz are going around Linus Torvalds and polluting userspace and supplanting things that the kernel, and now even grub, could already do very well.Dec 09 19:43
MinceRdoes kdbus count as "lulz"? :>Dec 09 19:43
DaemonFC[m]Yeah, it does.Dec 09 19:43
DaemonFC[m]And systemd-boot is an obvious attempt at marching forth and gutting Linux distros of the GPLv3.Dec 09 19:44
MinceRwell, the people adding the "lulz" seem to be blackmailing Linus and just merging whatever they feel likeDec 09 19:44
DaemonFC[m]The LGPL v2.1 says nothing about DRM, locked bootloaders, and corrupt deals involving patents.Dec 09 19:45
DaemonFC[m]So of course they're now moving towards an inevitable public knifing of GRUB.Dec 09 19:45
MinceRplus GRUB supports MBR and Legacy Boot, which they want to killDec 09 19:45
DaemonFC[m]It will make it even easier to violate the license of the kernel because nobody will have any interest in enforcing that once you have removed GNU and busybox and all that.Dec 09 19:46
DaemonFC[m]Replacing it with junk from IBM, Microsoft, and mjg59 Dec 09 19:46
DaemonFC[m]We're inching closer to a future where Linux is just proprietary UNIX all over again and Microsoft, IBM, Google, and Canonical are coming up with some occupation government for it.Dec 09 19:47
DaemonFC[m]That occupation government is pretty much what the Linux Foundation is.Dec 09 19:47
DaemonFC[m]schestowitz: What's truly aggravating, regarding file systems, is that fucking exfat is the only thing that you know all three major operating systems have read/write access to that actually works.Dec 09 19:49
DaemonFC[m]The exfat fuse driver got things horribly wrong and would eventually degrade and corrupt the file system.Dec 09 19:50
DaemonFC[m]That's what you get with reverse engineering, and the performance was terrible.Dec 09 19:50
MinceRexcept proprietary Unix was UnixDec 09 19:52
MinceRand systemd/Linux isn'tDec 09 19:53
MinceRso it's even worseDec 09 19:53
MinceRit's like slowlaris at its worst, if not worseDec 09 19:53
DaemonFC[m]I think that Microsoft is laughing, because they're slowly chipping away at the worst disasters of Windows 10 while dumping more of them into Linux through their partners.Dec 09 19:54
DaemonFC[m]Until nobody bothers to run it anymore.Dec 09 19:54
DaemonFC[m]Debian has secret mailing lists and somehow always manages to "vote" to do the same exact thing Fedora and Ubuntu have done.Dec 09 19:55
DaemonFC[m]Takes dark money.Dec 09 19:55
DaemonFC[m]They're a corporation at this point.Dec 09 19:55
MinceRa subsidiary of red hat, effectivelyDec 09 19:56
DaemonFC[m]They're masquerading as a non-profit, but then again, so do hospitals.Dec 09 19:56
MinceRso does mozillaDec 09 19:56
DaemonFC[m]"We do charity care."Dec 09 19:56
DaemonFC[m]Trash your credit and then if you're not worth suing, write it off and leave you with an outrageous bill from the IRS.Dec 09 19:56
DaemonFC[m]How charitable.Dec 09 19:56
DaemonFC[m]As an absolute last resort, they charge it off and take a tax break that you're paying for when the IRS comes after you.Dec 09 20:00
DaemonFC[m]MinceR: Charity!Dec 09 20:00
DaemonFC[m]Just like the credit card people.Dec 09 20:00
DaemonFC[m]You can have all the charity you can owe the government for.Dec 09 20:01
DaemonFC[m]schestowitz: So they gave Mandy an extra 15% off one transaction as a holiday bonus.Dec 09 20:04
DaemonFC[m]Wonder what to use it for.Dec 09 20:04
DaemonFC[m]It's only good tomorrow and the day after.Dec 09 20:04
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schestowitzDaemonFC[m]: so pay with cashDec 09 20:22
schestowitzanonymously :-)Dec 09 20:22
vZS1I'm with MinceR on this one. Filesystems shouldn't try to become another behemothDec 09 20:25
vZS1ZFS, btrfs, etc all try to do things best left to specialised toolsDec 09 20:26
schestowitzsystemd-filesystemdDec 09 20:26
schestowitzsystemd-homedDec 09 20:26
vZS1You end up having to design your deployments tightly coupled to what system you are runningDec 09 20:26
schestowitzsystemd-browserdDec 09 20:26
schestowitzall in oneDec 09 20:26
schestowitzwhatZZ not to like?Dec 09 20:26
schestowitzInternet ExplorwindowsDec 09 20:27
schestowitzwith "Active Desktop:Dec 09 20:27
vZS1s/system/filesystemDec 09 20:27
schestowitzBecause you need a web page as your wallpaper!Dec 09 20:27
vZS1It's a stupid design decision.Dec 09 20:27
schestowitzit's for antitrustDec 09 20:27
vZS1I just use Git to version control things that need version control.Dec 09 20:27
schestowitzthey tried to pretend the browser needs to be part of the OSDec 09 20:27
schestowitzand not put there to kill NetscapeDec 09 20:27
vZS1There are plenty of compression tools for things that need compressionDec 09 20:27
schestowitz[19:07] <schestowitz> and most people don't do versioning of settings filesDec 09 20:28
vZS1I'm not buying the bloated filesystem idea anymoreDec 09 20:28
schestowitz[19:07] <schestowitz> if they do, they know how to use gitDec 09 20:28
vZS1YeahDec 09 20:28
vZS1I saw thatDec 09 20:28
schestowitzmost files don't need compressinfDec 09 20:28
vZS1Same applies to all filesDec 09 20:28
schestowitzas they're small and need to be accesssed FASTDec 09 20:28
vZS1Everything is a file in POSIXDec 09 20:28
vZS1YepDec 09 20:28
schestowitzMirosoft: Linux needs to be on GitHubDec 09 20:28
schestowitzbecause email is hardDec 09 20:28
schestowitzme: people who can't do email cannot code eitherDec 09 20:29
schestowitzor contribute really shit codeDec 09 20:29
schestowitzbetter off discarded by defaulDec 09 20:29
vZS1These eat up too much system resources better utilised elsewhere (as MinceR pointed out)Dec 09 20:29
vZS1Or shit themselves frequentlyDec 09 20:29
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schestowitzthat's why Torvalds  cans ALL "pull requests" that come from shithubDec 09 20:29
schestowitzeven before Microsoft bought itDec 09 20:29
vZS1schestowitz: good point about the proprietary through obscurity btw.Dec 09 20:30
vZS1No one can work out what's in millions of lines of code unless it's their full time job and they're good at studying codebases.Dec 09 20:30
vZS1So those codebases are effectively proprietary, regardless of GPL licensingDec 09 20:31
vZS1We need to strive for simplicity and minimalismDec 09 20:31
vZS1That's the only way to keep control of our computingDec 09 20:31
vZS1GNU is particularly bad at doing this because it crams a lot of utilities with unnecessary options. People can pipe other tools together to achieve that. GNU is definitely not UNIX, when it comes to that philosophy.Dec 09 20:33
DaemonFC[m]There were tools that removed IE from Windows 98 and Me, browser engine and all, and replaced it with the Windows 95 B shell that was FAT32 aware.Dec 09 20:35
DaemonFC[m]Patched it to say whatever version of Windows it was running on.Dec 09 20:35
DaemonFC[m]IE was never as integrated as they claimed it was.Dec 09 20:35
DaemonFC[m]If you removed it, the computer was faster and more stable, at the cost of things that went to use IE not working, so of course they crammed Office 97 full of dependencies on IE as well.Dec 09 20:36
DaemonFC[m]Their idea was that IE had to be a part of everything, no matter how insane.Dec 09 20:36
DaemonFC[m]Then they could list a number of features that nobody wanted that would break, taking entire programs with them, purely for the point of breaking those programs and declaring the OS broken.Dec 09 20:37
DaemonFC[m]But, Windows 98 and Me, stripped of IE, did everything Windows 95 did and more, if you didn't choose to install IE and the new shell.Dec 09 20:37
DaemonFC[m]You still had DirectX, FAT32, an improved memory manager, ACM codecs.....Dec 09 20:38
vZS1schestowitz: the nice thing about Git is we can just send patches through any system that allows file attachments. git-format-patch(1)Dec 09 20:38
DaemonFC[m]On Windows Me, System File Protection would still guard everything that was left. Dec 09 20:38
DaemonFC[m]It was faster and more stable, with the obvious improvement of most of the security patches no longer applied to the OS you were running.Dec 09 20:39
DaemonFC[m]I did a quick glossing over at what each patch for Windows 98 Second Edition did, and came to the conclusion that only 21% of the hotfixes applied to Windows 98 SE with IE and the webby shell removed.Dec 09 20:40
vZS1ShitHub will always be inferior to GitDec 09 20:40
vZS1You can't even send a big patch file on Shithub. It'll choke.Dec 09 20:41
DaemonFC[m]So at least by count of bugs that they ever fixed, they increased the bug count to 500% of what it was before, solely by adding IE to the system.Dec 09 20:41
DaemonFC[m]And I checked. IE 11 is still there in Windows 10 20H2.Dec 09 20:41
DaemonFC[m]You can still browse with it.Dec 09 20:41
DaemonFC[m]This is getting ridiculous.Dec 09 20:41
MinceRyou don't even get dos mode with MEDec 09 20:41
DaemonFC[m]You do get DOS mode with Me.Dec 09 20:41
DaemonFC[m]You have to patch like three files though.Dec 09 20:42
DaemonFC[m]So you can run 98LITE to gut it and throw in the 95 B shell and then patch those three files to restore real mode DOS.Dec 09 20:42
DaemonFC[m]The actual improvements to Windows 9x more or less trailed off with Windows 95 B.Dec 09 20:43
DaemonFC[m]There were some, but they were completely overtaken by the bloat and insecurity and bugs introduced by their web browser.Dec 09 20:43
schestowitzSUEPO: "Dec 09 20:45
schestowitzAnnouncement of a strike: The strike will take place on December 15th, 2020.Dec 09 20:45
schestowitzWe expect you to participate in large numbers.Dec 09 20:45
schestowitz"Dec 09 20:45
DaemonFC[m]schestowitz: In the LibreOffice 7 release notes, they mentioned that parts of OOXML are undocumented and they had to reverse engineer what "compatibility level 15" actually was.Dec 09 20:49
DaemonFC[m]And what to do to implement it.Dec 09 20:49
DaemonFC[m]Office Undocumented XMLDec 09 20:49
DaemonFC[m]I wonder how long it will be before Microsoft just stops letting you get the actual files and tells people they must use MS Office online to even read something.Dec 09 20:50
DaemonFC[m]schestowitz: Major breaking news.Dec 09 20:51
DaemonFC[m] 09 20:51
-TechrightsBot-tr/#techrights-Facebook antitrust lawsuit: Dozens of states and the FTC sue company for alleged anticompetitive behavior - CNNDec 09 20:51
DaemonFC[m]The federal government is going after Facebook with the Sherman Antitrust Act.Dec 09 20:51
MinceR 09 21:02
-TechrightsBot-tr/ | Saturday Morning Breakfast Cereal - LobbyDec 09 21:02
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DaemonFC[m]I might order some of those 256 GB Micro Center thumb drives.Dec 09 21:11
DaemonFC[m]$20 is pretty cheap.Dec 09 21:11
MinceR 09 21:13
-TechrightsBot-tr/ | Saturday Morning Breakfast Cereal - QuestDec 09 21:13
schestowitzDaemonFC[m]: does not seem so bigDec 09 21:16
schestowitzif you saw the news last weekDec 09 21:16
vZS1Just watched the Rise of SkywalkerDec 09 21:21
vZS1MehDec 09 21:21
MinceRthe Fall of LandwalkerDec 09 21:21
vZS1I feel like they're trying to do too much in one filmDec 09 21:22
vZS1Every single one tries to be a plot revelationDec 09 21:22
vZS1Where's the build-up?Dec 09 21:22
MinceRs/walk/fli/Dec 09 21:22
vZS1Guess I'll go back to readingDec 09 21:24
vZS1I was hoping to get a new ASOIAF book this year but alas.Dec 09 21:25
MinceR:>Dec 09 21:25
vZS1I read Fire And Blood in April. I really enjoyed it.Dec 09 21:27
MinceRah, cleverDec 09 21:29
MinceRhe started a second series before finishing the first :>Dec 09 21:29
vZS1It's more a history than a seriesDec 09 21:31
vZS1I'm pretty sure most of it was already lying around somewhereDec 09 21:32
vZS1It's only two parts. Dec 09 21:32
MinceRor so you thinkDec 09 21:32
DaemonFC[m] 09 21:32
-TechrightsBot-tr/#techrights-Falling sales, job losses and bankruptcies: Pain spreads across coal country - CNNDec 09 21:32
DaemonFC[m]"Leaving the labor force."Dec 09 21:33
DaemonFC[m]Oh, I think I'll just leave the labor force for no reason at all.Dec 09 21:33
DaemonFC[m]Lalala'Dec 09 21:33
vZS1With GRRM, you never really know.Dec 09 21:33
DaemonFC[m]Oh, how's the economy? Couldn't be better. Back to you, Bob.Dec 09 21:33
MinceRthe richest people are not part of the labor force :>Dec 09 21:37
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vZS1I ate too many blueberriesDec 09 22:10
MinceR 09 22:21
-TechrightsBot-tr/ | Saturday Morning Breakfast Cereal - Dear MuseDec 09 22:21
DaemonFC[m]This mouse works better than that stupid Logitech one did, at least.Dec 09 22:34
DaemonFC[m]I do always appreciate how Microsoft mice have a loud "click" noise.Dec 09 22:34
oiaohmDaemonFC[m]: stupid part is Microsoft Mice most of them were made by Logitech.Dec 09 22:35
oiaohmJust Microsoft designs called for the click.Dec 09 22:36
MinceRaren't they both made by KYE?Dec 09 22:36
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birkoffain't esr the developer who has gone off tracks to a raving gun lunatic ?Dec 09 22:44
kingoffrancei thought some would say he kind of always was that guy :)Dec 09 22:45
birkoffhaven't heard from him since his last offset wishful thinking about linux conquering the desktopDec 09 22:45
birkoffkingoffrance: his early writings and works were more focused on freedom and computers cultureDec 09 22:45
birkoffI guess that just happens to people who get oldDec 09 22:46
kingoffrancehe was cathedral and bazaar i guess noone brings that up anymoreDec 09 22:46
birkoffhe's kicked off his own funded organization the OSSDec 09 22:46
birkoffhis movement did make an impactDec 09 22:48
vZS1ESR did more harm than goodDec 09 22:50
DaemonFC[m]<birkoff "ain't esr the developer who has "> Kind of like how the Republicans can't get anyone to say stop playing our music except Ted Nugent?Dec 09 22:51
vZS1Repeated attacks on RMS.Dec 09 22:51
MinceR(cat) 09 22:54
birkoffvZS1: did he directly attack him or just his notion of Free SoftwareDec 09 22:57
DaemonFC[m]I ran into an article that said don't totally compress drive C, but if that's the case that it would make Windows unbootable, why is it an option on drive C?Dec 09 22:58
vZS1Directly and GNUDec 09 22:58
vZS1RMS was treated like crap by all of the "open source" crowdDec 09 22:59
birkoffRMS is truely underrated all overDec 09 23:00
birkoffvZS1: can you give an example ?Dec 09 23:00
DaemonFC[m]schestowitz: The Lake County, IL government just messaged me. They want me to register for a Coronavirus vaccine.Dec 09 23:00
DaemonFC[m]Sounds like some of the side effects are pretty rough.Dec 09 23:00
vZS1Just search TechrightsDec 09 23:00
DaemonFC[m]One person told CNBC that he got the chills so bad he cracked a tooth.Dec 09 23:01
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vZS1 09 23:03
-TechrightsBot-tr/ | Just-Released Footage of Dr. Richard Stallman (RMS): Open Source People “Treated Me Like Shit” | TechrightsDec 09 23:03
DaemonFC[m] 09 23:04
-TechrightsBot-tr/ | ResidentDec 09 23:04
DaemonFC[m]I like how they backstop the "most people escape with only mild side effects" with "but we won't know what it does for years".Dec 09 23:04
vZS1ESR spent years shittalking GNUDec 09 23:05
vZS1Not hard to find. Just search his old blogDec 09 23:05
vZS1He didn't really build anything that got used much eitherDec 09 23:06
vZS1Probably a lot of envy in thereDec 09 23:06
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