●● IRC: #techrights @ Techrights IRC Network: Monday, March 21, 2022 ●●
● Mar 21
[00:00]	techrights_guest|11	" which is non-conformist <- hacker culture used to be non-conformist at least." - is it not anymore? I thought this was an absolute with the culture itself?
[00:00]	matey	mark my words, kuhn wants free software to be singapore, just without the cane
[00:01]	matey	is it not anymore? <- really hacker culture is still non-conformist, but this is my whole point
[00:01]	matey	rms created free software to preserve hacker culture! hacker culture is non-conformist!
[00:01]	matey	theyre removing the very thing rms created free software to preserve, and calling it free software
[00:02]	matey	rms created free software to preserve hacker culture! <- read his biography, the one sam williams wrote that the fsf published and sold
[00:02]	matey	what we have today is NOTHING like free software
[00:02]	techrights_guest|11	ok got it. i will read this.
[00:02]	matey	its more like singapore without the cane
[00:03]	matey	non-conformity + corporate culture = corporate culture
[00:03]	matey	this isnt a new problem
[00:03]	matey	"you want obedience? youll get obedient fools!"-- lenin
[00:04]	matey	kind of oldschool, still relevant
[00:04]	techrights_guest|11	it is still relevent. i agree.
[00:07]	techrights_guest|11	ok this one yes? https://www.fsf.org/blogs/gnu-press/innovative-biography-of-rms-returns-to-gnu-press-shop
[00:07]	TR Bot	 Innovative biography of RMS returns to GNU Press Shop Free Software Foundation Working together for free software
[00:08]	matey	without looking, that basically has to be it
[00:08]	techrights_guest|11	ok
[00:08]	matey	note i owned it (bought it from the fsf)
[00:08]	schestowitz-TR	they edited it a bit
[00:08]	matey	id already read it before that, it was published by o'reilly o'riginally
[00:08]	schestowitz-TR	oreall y?
[00:08]	techrights_guest|11	ok so is there an unedited version?
[00:09]	matey	no, oreilly
[00:09]	matey	the edits are minor
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[00:10]	matey	i dont know if they left in the epilogue awhere williams says that rms was dropping bits of hair in his soup and staring at his wife
[00:10]	techrights_guest|11	ok i found a first edition it has a different cover than the second edition,
[00:10]	matey	people with autism stare a lot. whether stallman does it inappropriately has been addressed by supporters from as high up on the progressive totem as the former president of the aclu
[00:10]	techrights_guest|11	Uploaded file: https://uploads.kiwiirc.com/files/72f04f7a7d5e0752f4709ecfda4823a6/Screenshot_2022-03-20_17-09-55.png
[00:10]	Alternative link	Cloudflare: kiwiirc.com | Alternative: https://web.archive.org/web/https://uploads.kiwiirc.com/files/72f04f7a7d5e0752f4709ecfda4823a6/Screenshot_2022-03-20_17-09-55.png
[00:11]	techrights_guest|11	first edition?
[00:11]	techrights_guest|11	Uploaded file: https://uploads.kiwiirc.com/files/a432c526c7667dd0daf3eb096be3ff00/Screenshot_2022-03-20_17-10-10.png
[00:11]	Alternative link	Cloudflare: kiwiirc.com | Alternative: https://web.archive.org/web/https://uploads.kiwiirc.com/files/a432c526c7667dd0daf3eb096be3ff00/Screenshot_2022-03-20_17-10-10.png
[00:11]	techrights_guest|11	second edition
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[00:12]	mjg59_	matey: No, the RMS-edited edition removes that
[00:12]	mjg59_	I've got a diff of the edits somewhere
[00:12]	matey	mjg59_: it was unnecessary to put in the book, and also unnecessary to remove from it once it was there
[00:13]	matey	besides that, if i had, as williams, included that note
[00:13]	matey	it wouldnt be as an awkward aside at the last minute, and it would try to be... then again, im a supporter
[00:14]	matey	i like the additional context
[00:14]	mjg59_	It's a bit odd for RMS to have added content referring to himself in the third person, but meh
[00:14]	matey	It's a bit odd for RMS to have added content referring to himself in the third person <- he usually doesnt
[00:14]	techrights_guest|11	so either is good then?
[00:15]	matey	either is good <- there are no significant differences imo
[00:15]	techrights_guest|11	ok. thanks
[00:15]	matey	i might change my mind about that someday, but its been years
[00:16]	mjg59_	He didn't actually remove the entire appendix, just various bits of it (including the picture of his pleasure card)
[00:16]	DaemonFC	"<matey> people with autism stare a lot. whether stallman does it inappropriately has been addressed by supporters from as high up on the progressive totem as the former president of the aclu"
[00:16]	matey	i wonder if anyone advised him to do so
[00:16]	DaemonFC	"Don't mind me undressing you with my eyes, it's the Autism, you see."
[00:17]	matey	he has always struck me as the sort of person to leave things in, unless someone advises him to do otherwise-- OR, 
[00:17]	matey	i imagine there are changes to phrases like "intellectual property" etc
[00:17]	matey	i believe the original was under a cc license, but i dont know if it allowed commercial redistribution (i read it many years ago) without the fsf getting permission
[00:18]	DaemonFC	I try to steer clear of anything that starts talking about "Intellectual Property".
[00:18]	DaemonFC	Not always successfully. But when Ubuntu started threatening people with it, I took notice.
[00:18]	DaemonFC	"Ubuntu Patents", whatever those are. They mostly just compile other people's software and act like that gives them special rights when it does not.
[00:19]	techrights_guest|11	ubuntu , really how does that work
[00:19]	matey	i should note that im turned off by retconning except for clarification and accuracy
[00:19]	DaemonFC	Even when they have something exclusive, it's usually just a shitty quasi-Free implementation of something else that works better than theirs.
[00:19]	DaemonFC	Like, notice how Flatpak doesn't have any shitty daemon running whether you use it or not that's sucking down 300 MB or RAM?
[00:20]	DaemonFC	Flatpak has the concept of repositories. You can always add more if you want to.
[00:20]	DaemonFC	Snap has "branding" but it's always Canonical's store, and they keep how that works a secret.
[00:20]	DaemonFC	<techrights_guest|11> ubuntu , really how does that work
[00:21]	DaemonFC	Plagiarism, mostly.
[00:21]	matey	the first thought i had when i bought the fsf version was "i wonder if they left in the part at the end"
[00:21]	techrights_guest|11	ubuntu gui was so bad. i moved on from that in 2010.
[00:21]	DaemonFC	Plagiarism followed by DARVO attacks coupled to vague legal threats.
[00:21]	matey	big humanity is watching you
[00:21]	AdmFubar	Spring has sprung! ... the grass has rizz, I wonder where the birdies is?!... they're in the trees you silly nut! and if you don't like my poem you can kiss my butt!
[00:21]	techrights_guest|11	lol
[00:21]	matey	fo rizzle
[00:22]	DaemonFC	https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/world/an-elite-ukrainian-drone-unit-exploits-the-cover-of-night-to-destroy-russian-tanks-and-trucks-while-their-soldiers-sleep-report-says/ar-AAViepy?li=BBorjTa
[00:22]		-TechrightsBot-tr/#techrights-MSN
[00:22]	DaemonFC	"Wakey wakey!"
[00:23]	DaemonFC	I'd love to be on one of those drone teams. I'd be having too much fun killing Russians while they sleep.
[00:23]	DaemonFC	IF they notice, it's because it's already too late to run, which just makes it even more fantastic.
[00:23]	techrights_guest|11	alright im out, got a hot dog linux iso to install thanks for the tips on the book ill get that on order, and thanks for the articles links on the vehicle mayhem surveillance.
[00:24]	matey	o/
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[00:24]	DaemonFC	Pootie Poot left his soldiers wide open to drone attacks.
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[00:24]	matey	goddamnit, did i just sell something from the fsf store
[00:24]	DaemonFC	He sent them in without night vision goggles or infrared and so they can't really do much at night.
[00:25]	DaemonFC	Not only that, but they're so stupid that in a country where most of the power is out, they're the only ones running light.
[00:25]	DaemonFC	I'm certain that helps.
[00:25]	matey	you can read it online for freeeee
[00:25]	matey	i did, i only bought it in paper to support the f$f
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[00:51]	AdmFubar	https://www.helpnetsecurity.com/2022/03/18/conti-initial-access/
[00:51]	TR Bot	 The TTPs of Conti's initial access broker - Help Net Security
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● Mar 21
[01:02]	schestowitz-TR	Windows
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[01:10]	TR News	Todays Leftovers Tux Machines http://www.tuxmachines.org/node/162784
[01:10]	TR Bot	 today's leftovers | Tux Machines
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[01:14]	TR News	the ax shell proposal gemini://xoc3.io/blog/2022-03-20
[01:15]	TR News	How to Get Into Self Hosting gemini://moddedbear.xyz/logs/2022-03-20-how-to-get-into-self-hosting.gmi
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[01:17]	TR News	"Digging deeper, I think I'm afraid of conflict. I don't know why exactly, since I seem to act the same in conversations with friends and strangers alike. I usually "let it go" and stay silent when confronted with people passionately expressing contrary opinions." gemini://josipantolis.from.hr/gemlog/absolute-candor.gmi
[01:18]	TR News	"I don't know if I ever mentioned the fact that I'm Russian. Even though I was not (yet) touched by the unfolding events (other than economically), it still feels like the life was put on halt. Which is why this capsule was silent." gemini://tilde.team/~aprilnightk/gemlog/2022/03/20-off-my-chest.gmi
[01:19]	TR News	Apple: "Unsurprisingly, I was disappointed in the upgrade." gemini://shit.cx/tech/devenv/2022-03-20-adjusting-for-monterey-spaces-to-fullscreen-apps/
[01:20]	TR News	Planet of the Apes gopher://gopher.black:70/1/phlog/20220320-planet-of-the-apes we watched two parts in the cinemas.
[01:21]	schestowitz	MinceR: gemini://nytpu.com/cheetahs/D536.jpg
[01:22]	MinceR	:>
[01:23]	schestowitz-TR	:3 even
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[01:25]	TR News	"Josh and Kurt talk about Microsoft accidentally letting us find out about ads in file explorer." https://opensourcesecurity.io/2022/03/20/episode-315-who-even-makes-all-these-terrible-decisions/
[01:25]	TR Bot	 Episode 315 Who even makes all these terrible decisions? Open Source Security
[01:27]	TR News	Linux Kernel 5.17 Officially Released http://www.tuxmachines.org/node/162724#comment-33123
[01:27]	TR Bot	 The first Asahi Linux Alpha Release is here! | Tux Machines
[01:28]	TR News	Windows is dying; the competition lowered its market value. https://www.theregister.com/2022/03/17/file_explorer_windows_ads/
[01:28]	Alternative link	Cloudflare: theregister.com | Alternative: https://web.archive.org/web/https://www.theregister.com/2022/03/17/file_explorer_windows_ads/
[01:28]	TR Bot	 Ads in File Explorer 'experimental' says Microsoft The Register
[01:33]	TR News	15 Commonly Used Network Ports Explained Tux Machines http://www.tuxmachines.org/node/162785
[01:33]	TR Bot	 15 Commonly Used Network Ports Explained | Tux Machines
[01:33]	TR News	"On behalf of the Rakudo development team, Im very happy to announce the March 2022 release of Rakudo #154. Rakudo is an implementation of the Raku1 language." https://rakudo.org/post/announce-rakudo-release-2022.03
[01:33]	Alternative link	Cloudflare: rakudo.org | Alternative: https://web.archive.org/web/https://rakudo.org/post/announce-rakudo-release-2022.03
[01:33]	TR Bot	 Rakudo compiler, Release #154 (2022.03) - Rakudo Compiler for Raku Programming Language
[01:34]	TR News	Another little Gemini milestone is crossed. The planet we have set up is increasingly being accessed. http://techrights.org/2022/03/20/2260-gemini-capsules-over-1800-active-ones/
[01:34]	TR Bot	 2,260 Gemini Capsules, Over 1,800 Active Ones | Techrights
[01:36]	TR News	Steep increase in total number of Gemini capsules gemini://botond.online/en/stats/
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[01:53]	DaemonFC	https://www.reddit.com/r/mildlyinteresting/comments/tivbgn/a_stop_sign_in_my_town_is_so_old_its_become_a/
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[01:53]	TR Bot	 A stop sign in my town is so old it's become a death metal band logo : mildlyinteresting
● Mar 21
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[02:37]	TR News	Yesterday's #boycottnovell-social and #techpol IRC logs ready. HTML: http://techrights.org/irc-archives/irc-log-social-200322.html TEXT: http://techrights.org/irc-archives/irc-log-social-200322.txt GEMINI GemText: gemini://gemini.techrights.org/irc-gmi/irc-log-social-200322.gmi GEMINI Plain Text: gemini://gemini.techrights.org/tr_text_version/irc-log-social-200322.txt
[02:37]	TR Bot	 IRC: #boycottnovell-social and #techpol @ Techrights IRC Network: Sunday, March 20, 2022
[02:38]	TR News	Yesterday's #techrights IRC logs ready. HTML: http://techrights.org/irc-archives/irc-log-techrights-200322.html TEXT: http://techrights.org/irc-archives/irc-log-techrights-200322.txt GEMINI GemText: gemini://gemini.techrights.org/irc-gmi/irc-log-techrights-200322.gmi GEMINI Plain Text: gemini://gemini.techrights.org/tr_text_version/irc-log-techrights-200322.txt
[02:38]	TR Bot	 IRC: #techrights @ Techrights IRC Network: Sunday, March 20, 2022
[02:39]	TR News	Yesterday's #boycottnovell IRC logs ready. HTML: http://techrights.org/irc-archives/irc-log-200322.html TEXT: http://techrights.org/irc-archives/irc-log-200322.txt GEMINI GemText: gemini://gemini.techrights.org/irc-gmi/irc-log-200322.gmi GEMINI Plain Text: gemini://gemini.techrights.org/tr_text_version/irc-log-200322.txt
[02:39]	TR Bot	 IRC: #boycottnovell @ Techrights IRC Network: Sunday, March 20, 2022
[02:40]	TR News	Yesterday's #techbytes IRC logs ready. HTML: http://techrights.org/irc-archives/irc-log-techbytes-200322.html TEXT: http://techrights.org/irc-archives/irc-log-techbytes-200322.txt GEMINI GemText: gemini://gemini.techrights.org/irc-gmi/irc-log-techbytes-200322.gmi GEMINI Plain Text: gemini://gemini.techrights.org/tr_text_version/irc-log-techbytes-200322.txt
[02:40]	TR Bot	 IRC: #techbytes @ Techrights IRC Network: Sunday, March 20, 2022
[02:42]	TR News	Yesterday's bulletin is now ready! : http://techrights.org/txt-archives/techrights-2022-03-20.txt | gemini://gemini.techrights.org/tr_text_version/techrights-2022-03-20.txt (tentative address, to work an hour from now)
● Mar 21
[03:03]	IPFS	IPFS downstream 60 minutes average 36.31 k/sec., IPFS upstream 25.48 average k/sec., average swarm size 279.80
[03:10]	DaemonFC	https://www.reddit.com/r/doordash_drivers/comments/g6yczx/signed_up_for_walmart_delivery_serviceno_tipping/
[03:10]	TR Bot	 Signed up for Walmart Delivery service...no tipping allowed. Found out later that it wasnt Walmarts delivery system delivering groceries, It was you guys. Almost didnt realize to tip, but then did and immediately canceled service after. : doordash_drivers
[03:10]	DaemonFC	schestowitz, Apparently, Walmart is giving Walmart+ to all their employees but the Walmart+ drivers are Grubhub, DoorDash, and Uber, and make about $4 per order.
[03:11]	DaemonFC	And so a lot of people complain that nobody is picking up their order, and a lot of the people who have delivered one, it's like stories about tons of heavy stuff and 50 pound bags of dog food they had to lug down a hill.
[03:11]	DaemonFC	And then they got paid $4 by Walmart and the guy didn't even leave a tip.
[03:13]	DaemonFC	I wonder if Mr. GOOOOOOOOOOOOOLAG would like Walmart for this.
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[03:14]	DaemonFC	I don't ever see any benefit of using this other than if I don't need $35 worth of stuff that day from their grocery pickup, it won't charge me a $5.99 convenience fee.
[03:16]	DaemonFC	I'm certainly not going to have someone drive all the way to my house every day to deliver just stuff for that night's dinner and then not tip them. That's a dick move. But it seems most drivers don't even accept these orders and then they stay there and get "re-shopped" by the store (put back on the shelf while the customer gets a refund because nobody wanted to take the order for $4.
[03:16]	DaemonFC	https://www.ridesharingdriver.com/doordash-walmart/
[03:16]	Alternative link	Cloudflare: ridesharingdriver.com | Alternative: https://web.archive.org/web/https://www.ridesharingdriver.com/doordash-walmart/
[03:16]	TR Bot	 Here's Why Some DoorDash Drivers Hate Walmart Orders - Ridesharing Driver
[03:16]	DaemonFC	    Walmart orders are making me lose money 
[03:16]	DaemonFC	    I decline all Walmart orders
[03:16]	DaemonFC	    200 items up to a 3rd story apartment and no tip
[03:16]	DaemonFC	    Just remember, Somewhere in the world right now.someone is on a $3 Walmart order
[03:16]	DaemonFC	schestowitz, And it's DoorDash that does this.
[03:18]	DaemonFC	https://www.ridesharingdriver.com/wp-content/uploads/2020/07/walmart-doordash-low-pay.png
[03:18]	Alternative link	Cloudflare: ridesharingdriver.com | Alternative: https://web.archive.org/web/https://www.ridesharingdriver.com/wp-content/uploads/2020/07/walmart-doordash-low-pay.png
[03:19]	DaemonFC	"Walmart will not release orders to drivers with young children in the car who cannot be left unattended."
[03:19]	DaemonFC	Acknowledgment that gig workers can't afford childcare and do, in fact, leave them in the back of a running car in Chicago.
[03:20]	DaemonFC	You hear all the time how people in Waukegan get jacked and their kids were in the car. Or they left their kid in the car to run into Dollar General and a *cough* person gets in the car and points a gun at the kid.
[03:21]	DaemonFC	So these gig apps are putting people's children in danger.
[03:21]	DaemonFC	Walmart knows. Doesn't want sued.
[03:23]	DaemonFC	Probably the only time I'd use the delivery (and tip) is if I was in bed with the flu or something and just could NOT get out. Otherwise, I'm at Walmart every day anyway.
[03:23]	IPFS	 Gemini requests since start of month:   326084 total Total number of pages in capsule: 39803      Active: active (running) since Mon 2022-02-07 16:50:38 GMT; 1 months 11 days ago
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[03:25]	IPFS	 New daily bulletin is now being generated and assembled.
[03:27]	AdmFubar	https://www.bleepingcomputer.com/news/security/more-conti-ransomware-source-code-leaked-on-twitter-out-of-revenge/
[03:27]	Alternative link	Cloudflare: bleepingcomputer.com | Alternative: https://web.archive.org/web/https://www.bleepingcomputer.com/news/security/more-conti-ransomware-source-code-leaked-on-twitter-out-of-revenge/
[03:27]	TR Bot	 More Conti ransomware source code leaked on Twitter out of revenge
[03:28]	DaemonFC	I think Walmart giving + to their workers is a sign of something happening on the back end.
[03:28]	DaemonFC	DoorDash drivers hate it, Walmart employees hate it, customers hate it.
[03:29]	DaemonFC	It seems Walmart reasons that if it can create 1.4 million new customers out of their own employees, there will be more orders on a typical route and it may become easier for drivers to justify a route if they're not driving across town for $5-6.
[03:35]	IPFS	QmZkDEgYNnUUQtaGwFdmteyZ5W9URPTE1mBXTnYquZ1fsa
[03:35]	IPFS	 New daily bulletin has just been added to IPFS, hereon retrievable with the CID above.
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[03:48]	DaemonFC	schestowitz, https://baronhk.wordpress.com/2022/03/21/to-go-along-with-hideous-levels-of-inflation-walmart-gives-walmart-to-employees-instead-of-a-cost-of-living-adjustment/
[03:48]	TR Bot	 To go along with hideous levels of inflation, Walmart gives Walmart+ to employees instead of a cost of living adjustment. BaronHK's Rants
[03:48]	DaemonFC	"Ive complained about these apps before, and how its dangerous for these gig workers from DoorDash to have their kids in the car.
[03:48]	DaemonFC	Very recently, in the city I live in, a guy got into a running car and pointed a loaded handgun at a 16 year old in the back set. A week before that, a guy stole a running vehicle and then ditched it a few miles later with some toddlers in it.
[03:48]	DaemonFC	And you know how these app companies are. Were just a facilitator! You cant sue us!.
[03:48]	DaemonFC	This is what comes out of San Francisco, folks. The most illiberal non-progressive system imaginable.
[03:48]	DaemonFC	A return to plantations working slaves for subsistence living standards."
[03:52]	DaemonFC	We're at the point where having a minimum wage job is almost a luxury thanks to people like Mr. GOOOOOOOOOOOLAG ordering his cold, cold, pizza from disgruntled slaves making like $1 above gasoline expenses.
[03:52]	DaemonFC	"I gave them a $5 tip!" Yeah, asshole, and gas is also like $7 a gallon in San Francisco and you live in a $780,000 house.
[03:53]	DaemonFC	So even if that's true, you could obviously do better. If that's a priority.
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[03:54]	DaemonFC	DoorDash needs to be pointed to the nearest dick to suck.
[03:55]	DaemonFC	I mean, I thought leaving food there for an hour and a half to go cold until they offered to pay someone enough to pick it up was bad.
[03:55]	DaemonFC	But it turns out many people don't get their Walmart grocery order at all.
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● Mar 21
[04:00]	mjg59_	DaemonFC: Which is why I pay a bunch more than that.
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[04:02]	DaemonFC	So you agree this system is illiberal, non-progressive, and slavery?
[04:02]	DaemonFC	And that it sucks.
[04:02]	mjg59_	I do! The gig economy is massively exploitative
[04:03]	DaemonFC	So why use it?
[04:03]	mjg59_	I only do so if the restaurant I'm ordering from offers it as the only delivery service
[04:03]	IPFS	IPFS downstream 60 minutes average 22.01 k/sec., IPFS upstream 28.11 average k/sec., average swarm size 279.81
[04:03]	DaemonFC	I certainly don't plan to, except the gas discount and the no minimum order for "pickup" which is their employees making at least $17.50 an hour and with employment rights.
[04:03]	mjg59_	And if I do end up using it, I pay well enough that I'm certain the driver is making a reasonable amount after costs
[04:04]	DaemonFC	The drivers don't agree that orders sit there for an hour and go cold unless they're not making enough to pick it up.
[04:04]	DaemonFC	The drivers say that it goes up 50 cents for everyone that opens it up and closes it again.
[04:04]	DaemonFC	Until it's worth enough for SOMEONE to go get it.
[04:05]	mjg59_	The only time I've had a cold delivery was when the driver picked it up immediately and then drove to the opposite side of the city
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[04:05]	DaemonFC	So if your order is sitting there for over an hour, it means that probably 10-15 drivers have opened and closed it and DoorDash eventually pays them enough to get rid of it, even without a decent tip.
[04:06]	DaemonFC	If your McDonalds sits there for over 15 minutes, it's not very palatable anymore.
[04:06]	mjg59_	And also apparently left it upside down
[04:06]	DaemonFC	The ice melts, the cheeseburger bun gets crunchy and stale, the cheese reverts to a plastic-like texture, the fries turn into packing peanuts.
[04:06]	DaemonFC	But they use DoorDash.
[04:06]	DaemonFC	I guess standards aren't high.
[04:07]	DaemonFC	"<mjg59_> And also apparently left it upside down"
[04:08]	DaemonFC	That seems like you offended him somehow.
[04:08]	DaemonFC	Why else would you go through the ADDED effort of turning the pizza upside down?
[04:08]	DaemonFC	HOW could you accidentally turn the pizza upside down?
[04:09]	mjg59_	I genuinely don't know!
[04:09]	mjg59_	But if I habitually tipped shittily you'd expect it to have happened more than once?
[04:09]	DaemonFC	I don't know how those apps work too well.
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[04:09]	DaemonFC	I think I used them like maybe twice.
[04:09]	DaemonFC	No, three times.
[04:10]	matey	/me presumes that mjg59_s habits regarding food delivery are reasonable and that grilling him over them are a waste of time, unless its just for fun
[04:10]	DaemonFC	All were when restaurants were offering to waive the delivery fee during like 2020 I think.
[04:10]	DaemonFC	Once from Little Caesars, once from Wendy's, and once from Popeye's.
[04:11]	matey	i dont use food delivery services unless theyre tied directly and exclusively to the restaurant (no doordash etc)
[04:11]	DaemonFC	I tipped well all three times, and the only bad delivery I got was from Popeye's where they added a fee for dipping sauces after they said they came with the meal at no extra charge. $1.50 per sauce. I was not thrilled about that. So they refunded it. Nuisance.
[04:11]	mjg59_	matey: The only time I'll use them is if the restaurant explicitly links to them as their preferred delivery partner
[04:11]	DaemonFC	And the order was kind of cold, but the lady that pulled up had a clunker and her two young children were in the back seat.
[04:12]	DaemonFC	So I decided to just let it go and give her a good rating anyway.
[04:12]	matey	i presume you avoid them as a rule
[04:12]	matey	if everyone did that im sure they would suffer and possibly go out of business
[04:12]	mjg59_	matey: Yeah I'd much rather give the money to the restaurant and have them have properly paid delivery people
[04:12]	matey	bonus points presumably to anyone who never uses them, even if its self-serving
[04:12]	matey	Yeah I'd much rather give the money to the restaurant <- exactly
[04:12]	DaemonFC	Yes, I only order pizza delivery now if it's going to be from a place with their own delivery staff.
[04:13]	DaemonFC	I ask when I call to order it if they're using a delivery company or their own employees.
[04:13]	DaemonFC	I just sort of figured at first that they had partnered with GrubHub to pay delivery workers a fair wage and just didn't want them on their own payroll.
[04:14]	matey	people underestimate the power of a partial boycott, where if adoption was widespread enough, the business would suffer existential losses
[04:14]	DaemonFC	But then I figured out that it's shitty piece work that barely covers gas, and I felt really bad and removed it from my phone.
[04:14]	matey	in other words if everyone barely used amazon, they would fall over
[04:14]	matey	it wouldnt matter whether they never did (though that would be great too)
[04:14]	DaemonFC	Well, the whole scam of "apps" is to get around the New Deal.
[04:15]	DaemonFC	Because half the Social Security and Medicare tax is paid by the employer.
[04:15]	matey	by "partial" of course i mean substantial but not complete
[04:15]	DaemonFC	And so when you are a contractor, you pay both halves instead of just the employee share.
[04:15]	DaemonFC	So not only do these things barely cover gas, you get fucked extra hard by the IRS at the end of the year.
[04:15]	matey	if people used uber only in emergencies for example, that would be incredibly helpful
[04:15]	DaemonFC	And you have to make estimated tax payments quarterly.
[04:15]	matey	if it was widespread enough
[04:15]	DaemonFC	Which is WAY more than a gig economy bullshit app job is worth.
[04:16]	DaemonFC	Huge headache. Very rapacious. 
[04:16]	matey	the whole thing would just fall apart
[04:16]	DaemonFC	The whole thing IS falling apart.
[04:16]	mjg59_	DaemonFC: Anyway, are we good on the accusations that I deliberately fuck over delivery people by tipping badly?
[04:16]	DaemonFC	The orders are being canceled for Walmart+ because they pay even worse than normal DoorDash.
[04:17]	DaemonFC	I just wasn't sure how else that it could go down like that.
[04:17]	matey	the one drawback is partial boycotts of incredibly addictive things, like twitter :) which apparently is incredibly addictive
[04:17]	mjg59_	DaemonFC: So you decided to just make something up?
[04:17]	DaemonFC	In a market economy, you typically only get service once the cost to provide that service is fair, or at least when they can't do better.
[04:17]	DaemonFC	But expecting people to work for less than the price of gas is unreasonable.
[04:17]	matey	because then soon enough instead of a partial boycott its just a habit
[04:18]	mjg59_	DaemonFC: I agree, which is why I don't expect that and ensure that I pay well enough for them to be fine
[04:18]	matey	techrights ran a series on "digital veganism" a few months ago that talked about this sort of thing
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[04:19]	matey	dr andy farnell
[04:19]	DaemonFC	Veganism makes absolutely no sense to me.
[04:19]	matey	doordash overlaps a bit with this because these things are usually app-based
[04:19]	DaemonFC	The first thing a lot of vegan recipes do is go back and try to find stand ins for all the stuff they can't have.
[04:20]	DaemonFC	<matey> doordash overlaps a bit with this because these things are usually app-based
[04:20]	matey	i hope doordash can also be used over the phone, but the drivers at least need a phone to take a picture or something
[04:20]	DaemonFC	Sometimes the apps are good.
[04:20]	matey	regular phone ^
[04:20]	DaemonFC	I took a picture of a "failure to yield" ticket and put it in an app.
[04:20]	DaemonFC	It connected me to an attorney that beat it at less than what most of them charged.
[04:21]	DaemonFC	When you just dial them up out of the phone book you don't know if they beat half the tickets or none of them or 90% of them.
[04:21]	DaemonFC	The whole point of the state issuing tickets is a backdoor tax.
[04:22]	DaemonFC	The cops knew that I didn't run the light. They didn't see it, but they knew that it was not only untrue, but impossible to prove even if it did happen because they weren't there and the only other witness had every reason to lie.
[04:23]	DaemonFC	(He had no license, no insurance, and his brother was absconding from parole in another state. But they let him go.)
[04:23]	DaemonFC	Then they stuck the ticket in my hand.
[04:23]	DaemonFC	They know most people have no time to fight this and don't realize what it will do to their insurance if they don't and go "Eh, $146 isn't the end of the world!". and mail it in.
[04:24]	DaemonFC	But an app helped me with that.
[04:25]	matey	Arnold Schwarzenegger says he's been 80% vegan the past 5 <- that is not what that means
[04:25]	DaemonFC	But attorneys don't do much. He was in there with several other clients one right after the other having the judge rapid fire them all so that the court could get to the ones that were just there to plea out.
[04:25]	DaemonFC	And if you boil it down to an hourly rate, assuming 15 minutes per case, he was making almost $850 an hour.
[04:26]	DaemonFC	Apps mostly just exist to exploit people somehow.
[04:26]	matey	thats like being 80% not a murderer because you havent killed anyone in a while
[04:26]	mjg59_	(Just going to point out that, once again, DaemonFC has made an accusation against me, failed to back it up, and then just started talking about something else rather than admit it was bullshit)
[04:26]	DaemonFC	They stuff them like a Thanksgiving turkey with spyware and crapware and advertisements.
[04:26]	matey	although being vegan doesnt require a clean past record
[04:26]	DaemonFC	Then they steal from people who can't get a regular job for whatever reason.
[04:26]	DaemonFC	An ex of mine has an open warrant for domestic battery.
[04:27]	DaemonFC	He does DoorDash because they don't look for open warrants.
[04:27]	matey	in california of course, anything is possible. you can just bullshit your way to any truth you can imagine
[04:27]	DaemonFC	So that may be who brings you your food.
[04:28]	DaemonFC	If the order is going to pay them well, it goes to the front of the line.
[04:28]	DaemonFC	That is apparently how the app works, and that seems so logical that I have no reason to be skeptical of drivers who say that's what they do.
[04:29]	DaemonFC	We live in a country of people who want a lot and don't want to pay for it.
[04:29]	DaemonFC	And that's why things are so screwed up.
[04:30]	mjg59_	It's a leap from "Drivers don't want to pick up stuff if it pays poorly" to "Matthew's pizza was picked up by someone who then drove to the other side of the city and back before deliverying it, so he must have tipped badly"
[04:31]	mjg59_	There are other reasons that could have happened!
[04:31]	matey	mjg59_ i imagine some people think your fun to simply harass over nothing. id prefer they find something legitimate to bother you about, but they probably think "well, its matt. he deserves it anyway"
[04:32]	matey	my issue with that thinking is that its more useful to bother you over something meaningful, if they can think of anything
[04:32]	DaemonFC	Well, I think I've said everything about uEFI.
[04:33]	DaemonFC	Pretty much every "OMG this fucking crap again!" out of me about my computer is uEFI-related.
[04:33]	mjg59_	Yeah plenty of legitimate space to disagree with me on various uefi topics
[04:33]	DaemonFC	Often when I've bought a new one and it's doing something else wrong.
[04:33]	matey	i can think of a handful of things
[04:33]	DaemonFC	It's not just rotten vendors anymore not caring if it's absolute garbage because Windows runs.
[04:34]	matey	but all of them are older topics and that takes some of the fun out of it
[04:34]	mjg59_	Anyway I've looked into this Ryzen laptop a bunch and I'm pretty convinced that it's possible for the firmware to entirely shut down Pluton in a way that the OS can never re-enable
[04:34]	DaemonFC	They actively go and find more things to deliberately fuck up.
[04:34]	DaemonFC	So that ONLY Windows runs.
[04:34]	mjg59_	Which is good!
[04:34]	DaemonFC	And that makes it worse than the BIOS.
[04:34]	matey	the most recent thing is your lawsuit against roy but i think thats funny
[04:34]	matey	and since no one is willing to discuss it there goes the fun about that topic as well
[04:34]	DaemonFC	<mjg59_> Anyway I've looked into this Ryzen laptop a bunch and I'm pretty convinced that it's possible for the firmware to entirely shut down Pluton in a way that the OS can never re-enable
[04:35]	DaemonFC	It will be better if OEMs shut down Pluton in a way that NOTHING can ever enable it again.
[04:35]	DaemonFC	Even the user.
[04:35]	matey	since picking on you over imaginary faults like how you order food is pointless, id rather pick on someone who is actively and known to be causing problems for the free software world
[04:35]	DaemonFC	I think Dell said they were going to do that.
[04:35]	matey	but if someone wants to bother you over an old topic, that could still be useful if they have anything good
[04:35]	mjg59_	DaemonFC: This is based on fusing, so it is actually possible to do in a way that nobody can re-enable it
[04:35]	DaemonFC	If it completely fails to gain traction because Microsoft can't even get the user convinced it's important enough to turn on, it will fail.
[04:36]	DaemonFC	Then it will just be one more blip on their road of sabotage.
[04:36]	DaemonFC	<mjg59_> DaemonFC: This is based on fusing, so it is actually possible to do in a way that nobody can re-enable it
[04:36]	DaemonFC	Good. Fuck em.
[04:36]	matey	meanwhile, and this irks me a bit, people are going soft on bad actors who are ACTIVE
[04:37]	mjg59_	Unlike motherboard TPMs, which can't be permanently disabled
[04:37]	DaemonFC	Whenever Microsoft says "security" I use those Dr. Evil quote fingers.
[04:37]	DaemonFC	Like "laser".
[04:37]	mjg59_	Pluton is actually better in that respect!
[04:37]	matey	i know taking potshots at matt is fun, i get it, but if youre just a punching bag theyre only relieving stress, not fighting anything
[04:37]	matey	ah well, there you go
[04:37]	matey	they can take potshots at you over pluton
[04:37]	DaemonFC	<mjg59_> Unlike motherboard TPMs, which can't be permanently disabled
[04:37]	DaemonFC	I'm not sure why you would.
[04:37]	matey	if it was a topic i was more familiar with i might do so
[04:38]	DaemonFC	The worst thing that happens with a motherboard TPM is that nothing uses it for anything.
[04:38]	DaemonFC	And it's just kind of....there.
[04:38]	matey	all i know about it is tpm -> tpm is tpm -> drm for the cpu -> drm is bad -> matt loves stuff like this
[04:38]	mjg59_	matey: TPMs aren't really useful for DRM
[04:38]	matey	which is a good reason to bother you about it, but id have to know more than just "drm bad" to really have a go
[04:38]	matey	even if (and this is my position) "drm bad"
[04:38]	DaemonFC	Bitlocker uses the TPM, and Bitlocker also caused irrecoverable data loss for me three times on the same laptop.
[04:39]	mjg59_	If they were used in a completely different way they could potentially be
[04:39]	DaemonFC	Including one where I had to reinstall Windows because of a BIOS upgrade from Lenovo.
[04:39]	matey	yeah if nukes can be used to stop incoming asteroids im totally in favour
[04:39]	matey	im not sure they can do that, but if they can its a good reason to keep a few around
[04:39]	mjg59_	But the way all PCs currently use TPMs means that TPMs can't be meaningfully used to enforce DRM
[04:39]	DaemonFC	I used Windows briefly on this thing until Debian had a new release out with good enough drivers to get it installed, and then go for a backport kernel.
[04:40]	DaemonFC	It was absolute hell.
[04:40]	DaemonFC	No improvement at all since I last checked in on it several years before that.
[04:41]	DaemonFC	The only reason anyone would use Windows anymore is because Microsoft makes it a colossal pain in the ass that takes a lot of work to get rid of.
[04:41]	mjg59_	matey: TPMs have no ability to look at the running system - all they know about is what they're told
[04:41]	DaemonFC	And it's not easy to document that process so that users know what to do.
[04:41]	mjg59_	matey: So during boot, each component in the boot chain passes a cryptographic hash of the next component in the boot chain to the TPM, and the TPM keeps a record of all of those
[04:41]	matey	mostly they stop less technical users from having control of their hardware
[04:41]	DaemonFC	When it was a PC BIOS you told people "Here's how you make a Live CD. Restart the computer with the LiveCD in it and it should boot into your Ubuntu CD.".
[04:42]	matey	and by default they give more to a company i consider bullshit
[04:42]	matey	thats in practice
[04:42]	DaemonFC	Now it's like this 30 step process that changes on every computer.
[04:42]	mjg59_	matey: And you can tell the TPM to store a secret and only give it back to you if those values are the same
[04:42]	matey	And you can tell the TPM to store a secret <- i have no use for this
[04:42]	mjg59_	matey: But there's no record of what "good" values are, so there's no way for anyone (in the general case) to know whether the hashes are good or not
[04:42]	DaemonFC	I'm not aware of any Free Software I should want to use that even cares if you have a TPM.
[04:43]	DaemonFC	Pile-o-FIPS-crap
[04:43]	matey	i presume the goal is to make it a standard feature
[04:43]	mjg59_	matey: So you can, for example, use the TPM to store your disk encryption key and if anyone modifies your boot sequence the TPM will refuse to give it back to you
[04:43]	matey	i have no use for that
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[04:43]	DaemonFC	<mjg59_> matey: So you can, for example, use the TPM to store your disk encryption key and if anyone modifies your boot sequence the TPM will refuse to give it back to you
[04:43]	mjg59_	Not everyone does! But it's a way to provide disk encryption to people without them having to type in a password
[04:43]	matey	if it was only on 50% of computers i dont think it would bother me
[04:43]	DaemonFC	Like the Lenovo BIOS update that took out Windows due to Bitlocker.
[04:44]	matey	but i think the goal is to have it standard, and its more likely to be abused than used
[04:44]	matey	thats why i dont like it
[04:44]	DaemonFC	A BIOS update should never make it impossible to unlock an encrypted disk again.
[04:44]	mjg59_	It's already standard
[04:44]	matey	therein lies the problem
[04:44]	mjg59_	All Windows-logo machines since 2014 have shipped with a TPM
[04:44]	matey	its more likely to be abused than used
[04:44]	mjg59_	World hasn't ended
[04:44]	mjg59_	Linux still boots on all of them
[04:44]	matey	World hasn't ended <- this non-argument doesnt fly when you say other injustices still exist
[04:44]	mjg59_	I mean, here's the important thing:
[04:45]	DaemonFC	mjg59_, You'll notice that Lenovo's instructions for installing Ubuntu say disable Secure Boot.
[04:45]	mjg59_	TPMs can't stop you booting things
[04:45]	matey	sure, human trafficking is rampant in thailand, world hasnt ended
[04:45]	mjg59_	TPMs are passive components - they only do something if they're asked to
[04:45]	matey	TPMs can't stop you booting things <- in practice i believe they give extra control to microsoft by default
[04:45]	mjg59_	Nope
[04:45]	matey	no because you can just reset the chip?
[04:46]	matey	or no because you can just do a deal with them and get a key for a bootloader
[04:46]	mjg59_	TPMs aren't involved in Secure Boot
[04:46]	matey	ahh ok so im conflating tpm with secure boot
[04:46]	matey	and i thought they were related
[04:46]	mjg59_	Yeah a lot of stuff confuses them
[04:46]	matey	i presume you know what problem rms has with tpm
[04:46]	mjg59_	Not your fault
[04:46]	mjg59_	I spent a bunch of time talking to rms about TPMs
[04:47]	matey	and whats his problem with it
[04:47]	mjg59_	He ended up agreeing they could be used in ways that were compatible with free software
[04:47]	matey	ah
[04:47]	matey	so 
[04:47]	matey	do you figure the main issue people have with it is thinking its got something to do with secure boot?
[04:47]	mjg59_	For instance, you can have your laptop use the TPM to prove to another device (such as a phone) that your laptop hasn't had its firmware or software tampered with
[04:48]	mjg59_	And you can check that before typing your password in
[04:48]	mjg59_	Which doesn't matter to most people, but would be extremely useful to activists in some places
[04:48]	DaemonFC	I haven't really gone through everything in my firmware setup.
[04:49]	DaemonFC	There was something in there about being able to disable Intel Platform Trust Technology.
[04:49]	DaemonFC	Which sounds like maybe a good idea.
[04:49]	DaemonFC	Usually things named like this are bullshit.
[04:49]	mjg59_	PTT is Intel's "TPM but running on the Management Engine" technology
[04:49]	mjg59_	So yeah if you don't like TPMs or ME disable it
[04:49]	matey	disabling me is a lot of trouble for most people
[04:50]	mjg59_	matey: When TPMs were introduced in the 2000s a lot of people *did* want to use them in user-hostile ways
[04:50]	matey	that would explain the aversion to them
[04:50]	mjg59_	There was a bunch of stuff about banks making sure that you were using a "trusted" system before letting you log in
[04:50]	mjg59_	But all of that turned out to be basically impossible in the real world
[04:50]	matey	interesting
[04:50]	mjg59_	So they all gave up
[04:51]	matey	and then pluton is... just more tpm?
[04:51]	mjg59_	At the moment
[04:51]	mjg59_	One of the problems with TPMs is that the communication between the CPU and the TPM is hard to secure
[04:51]	mjg59_	So if someone can take your machine apart, they can fool the TPM
[04:51]	matey	obviously the problem with pluton is simple
[04:51]	matey	people dont want microsoft in their firmware 
[04:52]	matey	which is one reason ill never buy a pi
[04:52]	matey	its not even the firmware itself-- they just dont want microsoft in their firmware, even if microsoft cant touch it.
[04:52]	matey	i dont deny being 100% averse to microsoft
[04:52]	matey	i dont want to give them the marketshare.
[04:52]	mjg59_	That's understandable
[04:53]	matey	if i buy a pi, they get SOMETHING out of it
[04:53]	matey	this of course is impossible to avoid completely. they get something out of android. they get something out of github.
[04:53]	matey	they get something out of everything they touch-- and there arent many things they dont.
[04:53]	matey	i would very much like to see microsoft go the way of nazi germany
[04:54]	matey	preferably with gates offing himself in a bunker.
[04:54]	mjg59_	Putting the TPM in the CPU does solve a security problem
[04:54]	matey	yeah, if its not the cpu you can do attacks on it over... something
[04:54]	mjg59_	And Microsoft have a legitimate reason to want to solve that security problem
[04:54]	matey	i not a hardware guy, but its not completely alien to me
[04:55]	mjg59_	But given Microsoft's track record, it's fair to not trust that that's all that's going on
[04:55]	matey	 And Microsoft have a legitimate reason <- im going to say they might have a TECHNICALLY legitimate reason
[04:55]	matey	 But given Microsoft's track record <- so i dont plan to buy anything with pluton in it, regardless of its technical features
[04:55]	matey	im happy to let intel take a bath
[04:55]	mjg59_	Yeah, it's up to Microsoft to fix their track record there
[04:55]	matey	i dont think its fixable.
[04:55]	matey	theyve been lying and scheming for decades
[04:55]	matey	and fucked us all over mightily
[04:56]	matey	though some people dont mind
[04:56]	mjg59_	I'll continue investigating what Pluton is capable of doing at the moment, but people should definitely make their own decisions
[04:56]	matey	of course people seem to forgive them enough to use github
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[04:56]	matey	 I'll continue investigating what Pluton is capable of doing <- i presume that people will do security research
[04:57]	matey	lets say for the sake of argument, that leah wanted to do research on pluton
[04:57]	mjg59_	I expect so! No x86 hardware that has Pluton enabled seems to have shipped yet
[04:57]	matey	that wouldnt bother me. researchers are SUPPOSED to do research
[04:57]	mjg59_	The existing Ryzen 6000 series laptops have it disabled
[04:57]	matey	disabled in a way that can be enabled later, or with fuses?
[04:57]	mjg59_	Looks like fuses
[04:57]	matey	/me nods
[04:57]	mjg59_	Can't prove it without basically destroying this laptop, and that'd be a lot of money that could be used for better purposes
[04:58]	matey	yeah i was content with an educated guess on that
[04:58]	mjg59_	But Microsoft definitely can't enable it, they'd need the laptop manufacturer to cooperate
[04:58]	mjg59_	That's the worse case scenario
[04:59]	mjg59_	At this point I'll probably wait for the Thinkpads with it to ship and check out one of those
[04:59]	matey	being cynical, i would expect it to be something that could be enabled through me or whatever they choose to call it next
[04:59]	mjg59_	If it's not fused off then the situation's more open
[04:59]	matey	but being cynical doesnt necessarily make it so
[04:59]	mjg59_	matey: Intel's not shipping Pluton in this generation, so hard to figure out what's happening there
[04:59]	leah	i have been summoned
● Mar 21
[05:00]	matey	just aruging that its reasonable for you to do research, leah
[05:00]	mjg59_	AMD do manage Pluton through the PSP, which is ~roughly equivalent to the ME
[05:00]	matey	i can say "lea.h" to avoid summoning you if it pleases you
[05:00]	leah	summarize the current discussion in 20 words or less
[05:00]	mjg59_	But PSP firmware is much smaller than ME, and easier to analyse
[05:00]	matey	we are talking about the merits of pluton
[05:00]	leah	what is pluton
[05:00]	leah	oh is that that amd thing
[05:01]	matey	i was saying that im against it because its microsoft, but im still not against you researching it because its hardware and i expect you to do research
[05:01]	mjg59_	leah: Microsoft's security chip that CPU vendors are incorporating, and which runs firmware that exposes TPM-compatible functionality
[05:01]	leah	so
[05:01]	leah	superfluous
[05:01]	leah	install openbsd
[05:01]	matey	check.
[05:02]	leah	matey: you realize this conversation could go nuclear right?
[05:02]	matey	leah: i believe you, but how?
[05:02]	leah	not in the mood to fight mjg59_'s bullshit today
[05:02]	mjg59_	The Pluton firmware doesn't seem to be encrypted
[05:02]	matey	leah: im sorry, i forget that you dislike each other
[05:02]	mjg59_	So should be easy for people to figure out what it can do
[05:02]	mjg59_	matey: Oh, I have no problem with leah. I understand her dislike for me.
[05:03]	leah	matey: this is the same bloke who helped normalize uefi secureboot
[05:03]	leah	now trying to normalize yet another attack on our freedom
[05:03]	matey	yeah im against secureboot
[05:03]	mjg59_	Legitimate topic to disagree with me over
[05:03]	leah	pluton is bad
[05:03]	leah	tpm is bad
[05:03]	matey	leah: im against pluton because its microsoft
[05:03]	matey	leah: please tell me why tpm is bad, so i can repeat it to everyone who is neutral on it
[05:03]	matey	this is not a troll
[05:03]	leah	matey: the same bloke who repeatedly derided libreboot from day one, also
[05:04]	matey	leah: im not a fan of matt and he knows this
[05:04]	matey	just because im using a civil tone and willing to speak to him
[05:04]	leah	ok, just know: mjg59_ arrives in bad faith, always. he's a hand of the industry. the one that takes away our industry
[05:04]	leah	he's a paid troll, basically
[05:04]	leah	i've seen his tweets about pluton
[05:05]	matey	leah: if you ever choose to explain why tpm is bad (this isnt a challenge-- your opinion means more to me on this topic than the opinion of most people, and one of my associates is also anti-pluton-- im against it because of the vendor) id be interested in reading it
[05:05]	matey	maybe a blurb on your website.
[05:05]	matey	im not demanding anything.
[05:06]		*techrights-ipfs-bot has quit (Ping timeout: 2m30s)
[05:06]	leah	though
[05:06]	mjg59_	leah: Sorry, if I've given the impression that I have issues with libreboot then I apologise - I think 100% free firmware is an entirely worthwhile goal
[05:06]	leah	the concept of what pluton/tpm/me/secureboot etc all do is very good, if it were user-controlled
[05:06]	leah	it is not user-controlled
[05:06]	leah	it is vendor-controlled
[05:06]	mjg59_	And libreboot is obviously the closest thing to that on vaguely modern x86 that's possible
[05:06]	matey	thats the threat as i see it
[05:06]	matey	its vendor-controlled
[05:06]	mjg59_	leah: How are TPMs vendor-controlled?
[05:07]	leah	mjg59_: unless i'm mistaken? i'm assuming pluton isn't user-controlled and is chock full of blobs
[05:07]	matey	but when you try to say that, people like mjg (not just him) say that... ok we are already seeing it in realtime, i dont even have to explain
[05:07]	leah	tpm isn't even a good security mitigation
[05:07]	mjg59_	leah: Pluton's firmware appears to be a blob that's uploaded at init time, so yeah, there's proprietary code there
[05:07]	leah	yeah, like we need more of that
[05:07]	matey	^ right
[05:07]	leah	for real
[05:08]	mjg59_	I would like there to be no proprietary code there!
[05:08]	matey	(this is exactly why the fsf needs to take hardware more seriously, instead of just playing an incompetent babysitter role saying "dont touch that, its hot")
[05:08]	leah	the technology itself is worthless
[05:08]	leah	you can achieve complete security with code running on the x86 host cpu
[05:09]	leah	compiled from isc-licensed source code
[05:09]	matey	^ and this is why we need more free hardware people, and more free hardware focus, so USERS have a better idea wtf theyre talking about (the fsf wont teach them)
[05:09]	leah	it exists on openbsd.org
[05:09]	mjg59_	leah: There's a bootstrapping problem - you can't prove that the system booted the secure code
[05:09]	leah	oh?
[05:10]	mjg59_	If someone modifies your firmware then you have no way to trust that the OS you're running isn't lying to you
[05:10]	matey	rms thinks free hardware could be a movement "in 10 years" like its not already
[05:10]	matey	mjg59_ this an evil maid, physical access issue is it not?
[05:10]	leah	mjg59_: yeah, and pluton/tmp is going to improve that, how?
[05:10]	leah	tpm*
[05:10]		*techrights-ipfs-bot (~techrights-ipfs-bot@pumv3cb2rfinu.irc) has joined #techrights
[05:10]	matey	yeah, and pluton/tmp is going to improve that, how? <- presumably with one more layer of abstraction 
[05:11]	leah	even if the company (microsoft) pushing were benevolent (it isn't), it's added complexity
[05:11]	leah	more code = more bugs
[05:11]	leah	probably security bugs
[05:11]	matey	my experience with magic solutions where the key and the ciphertext is on the same device and everything is neatly packaged in a chip is "its already broken, the hack just isnt evenly distributed yet"
[05:11]	leah	it's just like all that bootkey bullshit
[05:12]	leah	(e.g. yubikey)
[05:12]	matey	but pluton is in the cpu, so "hack this, motherfuckers"
[05:12]	matey	but then they do, because the key and the ciphertext is on the same device
[05:13]	matey	and the only people who saw it coming were the ones who have seen 20 iterations of the same magic promise
[05:13]	matey	i could be wrong-- im NOT expert on this
[05:13]	matey	im merely cynical about it
[05:13]	leah	matey: the way x86 boot works is documented on coreboot.org
[05:13]	leah	let me find it
[05:13]	leah	here: https://doc.coreboot.org/getting_started/architecture.html
[05:13]	TR Bot	 coreboot architecture coreboot 4.16-287-gd6727ba972 documentation
[05:13]	mjg59_	leah: If you have a measurement of what the CPU starts executing then you can create a chain of trust from there
[05:13]	leah	it's a simplified overview, of course
[05:14]	leah	back in the good old days, you had rom wired into the cpu and it just sort of booted up directly
[05:14]	matey	/me wants to know at which point this chain of trust doesnst start with a blobg
[05:14]	leah	there are layers of complexity inbetween nowadays
[05:14]	matey	back in the good old days, you toggled the boot code in on switches!
[05:15]	matey	/me was not around for those
[05:15]	leah	mjg59_: where on that diagram does pluton fit
[05:15]	leah	https://doc.coreboot.org/_images/comparision_coreboot_uefi.svg
[05:15]	matey	but, but, you couldnt trust the codes because someone could find the piece of paper you wrote the boot sequence on
[05:15]	matey	and edit it with a pencil!
[05:15]	mjg59_	leah: pre-CAR
[05:16]	leah	ok
[05:16]	IPFS	IPFS downstream 60 minutes average 30.56 k/sec., IPFS upstream 35.21 average k/sec., average swarm size 279.82
[05:16]	leah	and i ask
[05:16]	leah	why
[05:17]	leah	what do you think this will do to benefit average bsd/linux user
[05:17]	leah	i don't currently see how pluton guarantees that i'm running the same code i put in nor flash
[05:18]	matey	the good news is that microsoft will surely get a royalty on each chip that uses it
[05:18]	leah	to my knowledge, that's the cpu's job. (or it should be)
[05:18]	matey	i think pluton is IN the cpu
[05:18]	leah	mjg59_: how does pluton benefit me?
[05:18]	mjg59_	leah: Most people are not going to be targed by any kind of firmware attack
[05:19]	leah	ok, explain to me how i'll be attacked
[05:19]	matey	i think the logo for pluton should be ceilingcat. im sure they can license it.
[05:19]	mjg59_	leah: But *some* people are, and many of those people are activists
[05:19]	leah	let's say i'm ed snowden
[05:19]	leah	how do i get pwned
[05:19]	mjg59_	leah: So do you want those people to have to buy different hardware, making them more obvious targets?
[05:19]	leah	?
[05:19]	matey	im in ur cpu, completely inert and causing no problem for average yoosers
[05:20]	mjg59_	The easiest way to allow people to make use of security features without drawing attention to themselves is to give those security features to everyone
[05:20]	leah	or
[05:20]	leah	and this may be an unpopular opinion:
[05:20]	leah	don't do that
[05:20]	leah	flash coreboot
[05:20]	mjg59_	Most people don't need Signal, but the more people who use Signal, the lower the risk of governments being able to just arrest everyone using Signal
[05:20]	leah	mjg59_: you haven't answered my question
[05:20]	mjg59_	leah: How does flashing Coreboot help here?
[05:21]	DaemonFC	mjg59_, You know, like those towns where it's the law that everyone has to have a gun.
[05:21]	DaemonFC	There's not much crime.
[05:21]	leah	you said: there's no way to guarantee i'm actually running the same code i think i am
[05:21]	leah	mjg59_: the question you just asked me, is the same question i have, but for pluton
[05:21]	leah	also, there are ways to protect the flash on your machine
[05:22]	leah	on intel there's ifd and prx regs
[05:22]	matey	reflecttions on trusting microsoft
[05:22]	leah	no idea about amd, haven't investigated flash protection there yet
[05:22]	DaemonFC	I think that towns here should do that. That you have to have a FOID card and a gun in your house.
[05:23]	leah	the way you check your firmware isn't tampered with, is with a raspberry pi
[05:23]	leah	connect a pomona clip and dump your rom
[05:23]	DaemonFC	Or your household owns a fine of $500 to the city each year if you can't prove you are disqualified from being able to, or too disabled to use one.
[05:23]	leah	if it's a good hash, you're good to go
[05:23]	leah	that's it
[05:23]	leah	and it better be coreboot that you're running
[05:23]	leah	otherwise
[05:24]	leah	who do you even care about security
[05:24]	DaemonFC	People tend to commit crimes when they know the odds favor them.
[05:24]	leah	if you can't audit the code of what's flashed, then why bother?
[05:24]		*psydroid8 notes that x86 hardware has been getting more expensive and the low-end affordable x86 CPUs aren't much faster than the latest ARM and RISC-V chips, so believed that x86 market share will be decreasing over the next few years leading to even higher prices for those stuck with x86
[05:24]	leah	pluton is microsoft's security
[05:24]	DaemonFC	And the odds favor them when the government makes it too much of a hassle to fend off an attacker.
[05:24]	leah	not yours
[05:24]	leah	mjg59_: btw, are you aware of libre silicon project
[05:24]	leah	https://libresilicon.com/
[05:24]	TR Bot	 Libre Silicon
[05:25]	leah	*this* is the answer to hardware security. not layers of obscurity
[05:25]	DaemonFC	A security chip designed by Microsoft.
[05:25]	matey	holy shit, this is why the fsf is wrong about hardware
[05:25]	DaemonFC	We live in a parody of the world.
[05:25]	psydroid8	believes*
[05:25]	leah	mjg59_: look up the following:
[05:25]	DaemonFC	Nobody trusts Microsoft to keep their data secure, and if they do, they're an idiot.
[05:25]	leah	* jeri ellsworth homemade transistor
[05:25]	leah	* sam zeloof homemade silicon chip (he made a cpu in his garage)
[05:25]	leah	libre silicon project is based on those two
[05:26]	matey	didnt jeri ellsworth do a bunch of fun fpga stuff like an fpga c64?
[05:26]	leah	in *our* lifetime, we will have performant homemade computers
[05:26]	leah	fully homemade
[05:26]	mjg59_	leah: A libre implementation of this would be preferable, but you still need something equivalent
[05:26]	leah	mjg59_: yeah well, the point i'm about to make is this:
[05:26]	matey	in *our* lifetime, we will have performant homemade computers \o/
[05:26]	leah	security is when you control every aspect
[05:26]	matey	THATS the kind of freedom i want
[05:26]	mjg59_	Google's Titan implementation is something I'd prefer to Microsoft's approach here
[05:26]	leah	right now, we only control software
[05:26]	leah	but that will change in our lifetime
[05:26]	matey	yes
[05:27]	matey	leah: and the fsf wont even tell you about it, because they dont know about this stuff
[05:27]	mjg59_	leah: Security is when you control every aspect, and are able to prevent other people from asserting the same control
[05:27]	matey	this is why we need free hardware
[05:27]	leah	knowledge of how to do photolithography and how to actually beam gate patterns onto silicon is now in the hands of hobbyists
[05:27]	matey	so users can control their computing
[05:27]	matey	not just their compiler
[05:27]	leah	mjg59_: let me find you a nice video
[05:27]	matey	(which is increasinly controlled by ibm)
[05:27]	leah	mjg59_: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IS5ycm7VfXg
[05:27]	TR Bot	https://yewtu.be/watch?v=IS5ycm7VfXg
[05:27]	leah	watch this
[05:27]	TR Bot	yewtu.be | "Z2" - Upgraded Homemade Silicon Chips - Invidious
[05:27]	leah	and watch every other video on that guy's youtube channel
[05:27]	leah	he did that in highschool
[05:28]	matey	leah: why the f doesnt fsf talk about this?
[05:28]	leah	in the future, we will have fully homemade computers, performant enough to boot bsd/linux
[05:28]	matey	this is "users having control of their computing"
[05:29]	leah	matey: because they're "toejam witnesses" and stallman wants to keep his throne and refuses to adapt to changing times
[05:29]	leah	everything the fsf preaches is obsolete because of this and other developments in recent years
[05:29]	matey	matey: because they're "toejam witnesses" and stallman wants to keep his throne <- i dont want to throw rms under the bus, even if the fsf is wrong about this
[05:29]	matey	even if its his fault theyre wrong about this
[05:29]	matey	and i dont think stallman has a throne tbh
[05:29]	leah	mjg59_: but yeah, look at jeri ellsworth, sam zeloof and libre silicon project
[05:29]	matey	still, its treacherous that the fsf doesnt care about this.
[05:30]	matey	its a betrayal of their mission
[05:30]	leah	mjg59_: i'm completely ignoring arm/riscv stuff and putting all my hopes in these people
[05:30]	leah	sam zeloof is the leader of the freedom movement now
[05:30]	leah	as far as i'm concerned
[05:30]	matey	/me is sure that arm and riscv will keep people doing interesting work while waiting for santa to bring homemade chips
[05:30]	kingoffrance	DaemonFC, sov citizens propose that occasionally. ye olde common law was the "community" gets a joint fine
[05:30]	matey	sam zeloof is the leader of the freedom movement now <-
[05:30]	matey	sweet
[05:31]	leah	mjg59_: we currently think on the assumption that we don't control hardware. that's why shit like pluton exists
[05:31]	kingoffrance	DaemonFC, after the fact of course
[05:31]	matey	/me is fucking glad he didnt type lea.h instead
[05:31]	leah	mjg59_: in our lifetime, small scale fab operations will exist in all towns and villages, making computers from scratch
[05:31]	leah	fast enough to run a general purpose os and do all your computing
[05:31]	leah	with all free software
[05:31]	matey	/me wonders if roy will start supporting free hardware, or choose to be an fsf mouthpiece (or both?)
[05:32]	leah	mjg59_: in engineering class, they teach you how to make a bicycle or a clock. when you're at school
[05:32]	leah	mjg59_: in our lifetime, they will teach how to make CPUs at school
[05:32]	mjg59_	leah: I watched Jeri make a transistor with a toaster oven about 15 years ago - I'm extremely excited to see progress there
[05:32]	leah	mjg59_: first intel cpu has about 2000 transistors
[05:32]	leah	sam's chip has 1200
[05:33]	matey	its tantamount to fraud that free software ignores these issues
[05:33]	leah	in 10 years we'll have homemade CPUs that do 100k flops or more
[05:33]	matey	<- is not a hardware person-- has been trying to push the fsf to take hardware more seriously since before 2018
[05:33]	leah	i'm calling it
[05:33]	matey	leah: i believe you
[05:33]	leah	100k flops is average performance of CPU from mid 90s
[05:34]	matey	leah: you need to get everyone together on this and take over free computing
[05:34]	leah	and i bet i get completely proven wrong and someone recreates pentium4 performance in 10 years
[05:34]	matey	but i hope you will be fair to rms and his legacy
[05:34]	leah	matey: that is exactly what i'm doing
[05:34]	leah	i'm delayed in the startup, because i want to get it right
[05:34]	matey	even if he gets this wrong-- do feel free to say why hes COMPLETELY wrong on this entire category of issues, because the fsf (and rms) are
[05:35]	matey	<leah> matey: that is exactly what i'm doing <- \o/
[05:35]	matey	good!
[05:35]	leah	i was going to launch something within the fsf. and told them exactly my plans. they decided not to hire me as their executive director
[05:35]	matey	thats what we need
[05:35]	leah	so now i'm starting a new org
[05:35]	matey	free hardware and free software
[05:35]	leah	i'm hoping to have it launched, some time this year
[05:35]	leah	i wanted it launched this month but i've been delayed
[05:35]	leah	Real Life (tm)
[05:35]	matey	dont make it monolithic like the fsf
[05:35]	leah	matey: yep. not gonna be another fsf
[05:36]	matey	make it so more can join like iss modules
[05:36]	leah	fsf tries to control everything
[05:36]	matey	and theyre not good at it anymore
[05:36]	leah	matey: ever watched the 1999 movie "fight club"?
[05:36]	matey	they dropped the ball between 2010 and 2018
[05:36]	leah	i'm gonna do that, but with free software/hardware
[05:36]	matey	 matey: ever watched the 1999 movie "fight club" <- a favourite
[05:36]	leah	decentralized movement
[05:36]	matey	rip meatloaf
[05:36]	leah	unifying what are currently separate, disunified projects/orgs
[05:36]	matey	?-2022
[05:36]	leah	freedom as an argument is solid
[05:37]	leah	but our current leaders are ineffective
[05:37]	matey	the point of free software was users would have control of their computing
[05:37]	matey	not their compiler
[05:37]	leah	mjg59_: wanna see something cool?
[05:37]	matey	the work rms did in this was pioneering
[05:37]	matey	but pioneering has a way of finding new frontiers
[05:38]	matey	and free hardware is the next frontier for users that want to be libre
[05:38]	leah	mjg59_: this is sam's photolithography stepper, used to beam gate patterns onto silicon waifers:
[05:38]	leah	https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Nxz_ENnmgtI
[05:38]	TR Bot	https://yewtu.be/watch?v=Nxz_ENnmgtI
[05:38]	TR Bot	yewtu.be | Maskless Photolithography Stepper for Homemade Chips - Invidious
[05:38]	matey	its not a fad, its not a science project for lulz
[05:38]	matey	its a movement
[05:38]	leah	mjg59_: he built it, by modifying a $100 DLP projector, second hand, that me purchased on amazon
[05:38]	matey	the fsf is stupid to not recognise this-- its very foolish
[05:38]	leah	he describes it in that video
[05:38]	matey	people who care about free software should be ECSTATIC over this
[05:38]	kingoffrance	matey, a pioneer is someone with arrows in their back :)
[05:38]	leah	mjg59_: intel's photolithography steppers cost billions of dollars
[05:38]	matey	kingoffrance: dont ever change
[05:38]	mjg59_	leah: Literally everything I am in favour of from a security perspective would be better if it could be fabricated in an entirely free manner
[05:38]	leah	he did it with a shit dlp projector
[05:38]	leah	and it works
[05:38]	kingoffrance	lol
[05:38]	leah	lol
[05:39]	leah	and
[05:39]	leah	i want to stress this point;
[05:39]	leah	he did it while he was a highschool student
[05:40]	matey	leah: free software people who ignore these developments are hardly better than frauds (i want to stress that reasonable exceptions exist-- but there isnt a lot of excuse for this!)
[05:40]	leah	mjg59_: and this is where you come in
[05:40]	leah	mjg59_: you have a massive following. i ask of you:
[05:40]	leah	promote sam's work. promote libre silicon project
[05:40]	leah	they need more eyes
[05:40]	leah	you have a massive following
[05:40]	leah	well. not massive. but a bigger following than i do. lol
[05:40]	mjg59_	leah: Gladly
[05:40]	leah	cheers
[05:40]	matey	/me thinks most of the people who follow matt are probably chasing him with pitchforks
[05:41]	mjg59_	leah: If you haven't seen anything in a couple of days, remind me - it's late and there's a chance I'll just forget
[05:41]	matey	at least hes less annoying to talk to than matt lee
[05:41]	leah	matey: mjg59_ isn't evil
[05:41]	matey	we have a different concept of evil then
[05:41]	leah	but i disagree with some things he's said in the past
[05:41]		*DaemonFC has quit (Quit: Leaving)
[05:42]	matey	evil is something that can take over good people
[05:42]	leah	people are of course entitled to their views
[05:42]	matey	you see the good in matt. theres good in EVERY person
[05:42]	matey	its a question of what takes hold 
[05:42]	matey	but point noted anyway
[05:42]	leah	honestly, most of my disdain for him comes from the rms saga last year
[05:42]	leah	and i've since become disillusioned with rms
[05:42]	matey	people are of course entitled to their views <- they have to be. science and society in general fall apart when people arent allowed to have views
[05:43]	leah	i privately refer to his most loyal followers as "toejam witnesses"
[05:43]	leah	you know the people i mean
[05:43]	leah	the people who just blindly parrot whatever he says
[05:43]	matey	<leah> and i've since become disillusioned with rms <- any chance youve seen babylon 5?
[05:43]	matey	please say yes
[05:43]	leah	TW "toejam witness" of course, being a parody of jehovas witnesses
[05:43]	matey	its the only metaphor that fits here
[05:43]	leah	lol
[05:43]	leah	rms isn't evil either
[05:43]	leah	just wrong
[05:44]	matey	no hes not evil and he has earned a legacy imo
[05:44]	leah	about pretty much everything
[05:44]	leah	free software is great
[05:44]	matey	theres a point where kosh says (daemonfc can quote this more completely)
[05:44]	leah	but he isn't the leader of it anymore
[05:44]	matey	"they are a dying people. we should let them die"
[05:44]	matey	this applies to the fsf
[05:44]	leah	matey: but the problem isn't who is in charge
[05:44]	leah	the problem is that there's 1 person in charge
[05:44]	leah	i want a federated movement
[05:44]	matey	thats part fo the problem 
[05:44]	leah	with no clear leadership
[05:45]	leah	no central control
[05:45]	matey	yes, we need a federated movement
[05:45]	leah	the fsf/gnu model worked in the 90s when the movement was small
[05:45]	leah	these days, it's huge
[05:45]	matey	for the same reasons raid exists
[05:45]	leah	free software has "won" but the very people who started it lost control of it
[05:45]	leah	but they stuck to the old ways
[05:45]	matey	yes
[05:45]	leah	i initially thought:
[05:45]	leah	just grow a bigger org
[05:45]	leah	but that doesn't solve anything
[05:45]	matey	i dont think you have the slightest idea how completely we agree on this
[05:45]	leah	what we need is a "federal freedom charter"
[05:45]	matey	it goes beyond what you can imagine
[05:45]	leah	defining our movement
[05:45]	kingoffrance	you guys are arguing for conway's law :D
[05:45]	matey	i was saying this before you were
[05:46]	matey	but-- youre the person that can make it happen
[05:46]	leah	and in the light of sam zeloof's work, we can now effectively campaign for true hardware freedom
[05:46]	leah	the current movement focuses purely on software
[05:46]	leah	there *is* a free hardware movement
[05:46]	leah	but it isn't organized politically
[05:46]	leah	it's organized on a technical basis only
[05:46]	matey	im a software person-- even i know that free hardware is the VITAL next step
[05:46]	leah	we need the same ideological zeal as the fsf
[05:46]	matey	yes
[05:46]	leah	but adapted to modern times, encompassing hardware as well as software
[05:46]	matey	yes
[05:46]	leah	and we need it yesterday
[05:47]	matey	 <kingoffrance> you guys are arguing for conway's law <- okay, explain
[05:47]	kingoffrance	its just be being stupidly meta, nothing to explain
[05:47]	kingoffrance	*me
[05:47]	matey	<leah> and we need it yesterday <- no, lets wait 10 years so that we can use the time to think up a good excuse for why we waited!
[05:47]	leah	matey: the federation is coming
[05:47]	matey	about bloody time too
[05:48]	leah	the federation of freedom
[05:48]	matey	should have happened 5 years ago
[05:48]	matey	but now would suffice
[05:48]	leah	i'll have something off the ground some time this year
[05:48]	leah	i wanted to launch it last year
[05:48]	leah	but
[05:48]	matey	dont ever stop
[05:48]	leah	real life gets in the way
[05:48]	matey	make this one your lifes work
[05:48]	leah	it will happen
[05:48]	leah	either i will launch it soon
[05:48]	leah	or someone else will
[05:48]	leah	i've been spreading the idea to a select few people
[05:48]	leah	everyone i tell it to, thinks it's a brilliant idea
[05:48]	matey	its a NECESSARY idea
[05:49]	matey	its also smart
[05:49]	matey	two things that go nicely together
[05:49]	leah	i'm not going to fight the fsf though
[05:49]	leah	the fsf can stay where it is
[05:49]	matey	good
[05:49]	matey	dont trash rms too much
[05:49]	leah	the fsf isn't bad. just obsolete
[05:49]	matey	instein didnt go around kicking newton
[05:49]	matey	he didnt need to
[05:49]	leah	he went around kicking college students for getting their math wrong
[05:50]	matey	newton has his place 
[05:50]	matey	he went around kicking college students for getting their math wrong <- if college students get free hardware wrong, you need to kick them a little 
[05:50]	matey	rms didnt worry about pretending to care about peoples feelings-- he left that to-- actually who in open source pretended to care about peoples feelings?
[05:51]	leah	matey: i've spoken to zoe, the new fsf ed
[05:51]	leah	she seems a lot more pragmatic than her predecessors and her current bosses
[05:51]	matey	does she get it?
[05:51]	matey	but does she get free hardware?
[05:51]	matey	as an idea
[05:51]	leah	she's currently stifled by the old guard pulling her strings, who i presume put her there as their puppet
[05:51]	matey	i know she cant change the fsf, i dont expect her to
[05:51]	leah	but i think she's actually pretty on the ball about things
[05:51]	matey	 who i presume put her there as their puppet
[05:51]	leah	i'm genuinely curious to see what she'll do
[05:51]	matey	 <- that is the only role the fsf can offer anyone at this point
[05:52]	leah	she appears to have the qualities of a shrewd leader
[05:52]	leah	and she's a woman, so everyone underestimates her and won't see her coming
[05:52]	matey	like i said i dont care what she does at the fsf, i want to know if she understands the importance of free hardware even if her position at the fsf is useless
[05:52]	leah	*and* they'll think twice about challenging her
[05:52]	matey	she's a woman, so everyone underestimates her <- some of us realise that grace hopper practically invented programming
[05:52]	matey	unless you count ada of course
[05:52]	matey	men invented computing (oversimplification but whatever) and women invented programming
[05:53]	matey	this pattern repeated several times
[05:53]	matey	im sure women invented computers too
[05:53]	matey	s/computing/computers/
[05:53]	leah	women were also the majority of operators in ww2 working on all the machines
[05:53]	leah	including computers
[05:53]	matey	but babbage and ada, then the mark i and hopper
[05:53]	leah	comms industry was all-female
[05:53]	leah	while the boys were out fighting
[05:53]	matey	yeah computing was womens work
[05:53]	matey	big quote marks but that was the culture of the day
[05:54]	matey	do the cooking, do the laundry, run all the mainframes
[05:54]	leah	matey: anyway
[05:54]	matey	build the apollo guidance computer...
[05:54]	leah	i think the fsf can be useful in my plans
[05:54]	matey	dont rely on them, theyre useless
[05:54]	matey	but if you can use them, whatever, good?
[05:54]	leah	i won't rely on them
[05:54]	matey	good
[05:54]	leah	but i think there's a chance they could assist me, in the future
[05:54]	leah	a leg-up, if you will
[05:54]	matey	build the apollo guidance computer... <- all women
[05:55]	matey	at least the software 
[05:55]	matey	which was on physical wires
[05:55]	leah	stallman's fsf will never help me
[05:55]	leah	but stallman is not long for this world
[05:55]	matey	its a mistake to throw stallman under the bus
[05:55]	leah	i won't
[05:55]	matey	it will hurt your credibility (but it wont stop free hardware)
[05:55]	matey	good, its a point of honour more than a strategic issue
[05:56]	leah	that guy completely opposes free hardware, though
[05:56]	matey	you can do this honourably
[05:56]	leah	look at the libreplanet-discuss thread, on this very topic
[05:56]	leah	it started in january 2022 and extended into february
[05:56]	matey	that guy completely opposes free hardware, though <- im not against skewering him for this position
[05:56]	matey	but give him his legacy, hes earned it
[05:56]	kingoffrance	matey, https://www.nasa.gov/feature/jpl/when-computers-were-human/    look up dictionary, old term for people :D
[05:56]	TR Bot	 When Computers Were Human | NASA
[05:56]	leah	he doesn't oppose it in principle
[05:56]	leah	but in practise
[05:56]	kingoffrance	hardware is just simulating people :D
[05:56]	leah	his positions are conservative by modern standards
[05:56]	matey	computers were people too, kingoffrance
[05:56]	kingoffrance	lol
[05:56]	leah	he clings to the old assumptions that you cannot control hardware
[05:56]	leah	and sam zeloof has disproved that assertion
[05:56]	matey	yes
[05:57]	leah	he was even shown sam's work, in that thread
[05:57]	matey	it was a reasonable given when it was true
[05:57]	leah	know what he said?
[05:57]	leah	"but can it boot linux?"
[05:57]	leah	i'm paraphrasing, of course
[05:57]	matey	but its like basing a theory of transportation on heavier-than-air-flight being impossible
[05:57]	leah	he completely misunderstood the point
[05:57]	matey	we have plans ffs
[05:57]	matey	planes
[05:57]	leah	matey: lol look up early attempts at building helicopters in the 1920s
[05:58]	matey	autogyros, the helicopter any idiot can fly
[05:58]	matey	they didnt take off because most people shouldnt be behind the wheel of ANYTHING, even if its easy to operate
[05:59]	leah	matey: are you aware of my recent criticisms of fsf ryf/fsdg policy?
[05:59]	matey	yes ive read them
[05:59]	leah	you'll note that, in those documents, i didn't attack the fsf
[05:59]	matey	you cant write as fast as i can read your website
[05:59]	matey	please go back to cc0.
[05:59]	leah	?
[05:59]	matey	i know you wont, ill say it anyway.
[05:59]	leah	anyway, you'll note that i didn't attack the fsf or rms in any way
[05:59]	matey	or cc by sa or something
[05:59]	leah	i criticized their positions
[05:59]	leah	i'm allowed to do that
[05:59]	matey	criticising their positions isnt merely acceptable
● Mar 21
[06:00]	matey	it is NECESSARY
[06:00]	matey	this is what science does
[06:00]	matey	it rejects bullshit
[06:00]	leah	but i did for example, say that the fsf is evil or whatever, or denounce them
[06:00]	matey	and the fsfs position on free hardware are bullshit
[06:00]	leah	the strong point i made was that the fsf is *conservative* by modern standards
[06:00]	matey	almost scientifically bullshit
[06:00]	leah	yep
[06:00]	leah	well, it's ok to criticize someone constructively
[06:01]	leah	i criticize rms heavily
[06:01]	matey	of course it is
[06:01]	leah	but
[06:01]	leah	i do respect the man
[06:01]	leah	he's a good man
[06:01]	matey	im glad
[06:01]	matey	his contributions to computing are no joke
[06:01]	leah	but you know
[06:01]	matey	he kicked off a lot of what we must carry forward
[06:01]	leah	everyone has their day
[06:01]	matey	it pisses me off so much that he gets hardware wrong
[06:01]	leah	everyone has their time
[06:01]	leah	and sometimes
[06:01]	leah	your time is over
[06:01]	leah	and it becomes time to let new people have their day
[06:02]	matey	well newton couldnt be the leading authority on physics forever
[06:02]	leah	and we're currently in the transition period on that
[06:02]	leah	we have been for the last few years now
[06:02]	matey	leah: this issue goes so much beyond the ego issues people will say this is all about
[06:02]	leah	and i snapped out of the spell i was in last year, and have come to also realize this
[06:02]	matey	esr was an ego issue-- i think kuhn is an ego issue
[06:03]	matey	this is an issue of being correct about the future, and about freedom
[06:03]	matey	we cant get freedom wrong just to make people happy
[06:03]	leah	matey: the free software movement is actually in a pretty good position
[06:03]	matey	or for "unity" or some bullshit
[06:03]	leah	what we need is a hardware movement too
[06:03]	leah	sam's work has enabled us to make a start on it
[06:03]	matey	what we need is a hardware movement too <- agreed
[06:03]	matey	its not like free software will cease to matter
[06:03]	leah	before sam's work, the "hardware" movement was still software
[06:03]	leah	just at a lower level
[06:04]	matey	mark my words, there will be people who say non-free software on free hardware is fine, because you control the machine
[06:04]	leah	of course, there are FPGAs
[06:04]	leah	the hardware movement started on FPGAs
[06:04]	matey	its stupid but that never stopped a specious argument
[06:04]	matey	yes
[06:04]	leah	free hardware movement, that is
[06:04]	leah	it has graduated to raw silicon
[06:04]	matey	yes!
[06:04]	matey	i predicted fpgas as a lad you know
[06:04]	matey	i was a huge fan of eeproms
[06:04]	matey	i was like "we should make cpus like this"
[06:05]	IPFS	IPFS downstream 60 minutes average 24.01 k/sec., IPFS upstream 19.31 average k/sec., average swarm size 279.84
[06:05]	matey	never got into hardware 
[06:05]	matey	but its pretty damned important
[06:05]	matey	raw silicon is the obvious next step
[06:05]	leah	i mean
[06:05]	leah	remember pic chips?
[06:05]	matey	of course
[06:06]	leah	from like, the 90s. possibly earlier actually
[06:06]	leah	yeah, that was a thing
[06:06]	matey	i often think of switching from python to some pic language
[06:06]	leah	>pic12c508a
[06:06]	matey	or a lighter python made for embedded pic-chip-like platforms
[06:07]	matey	its only a matter of time before gcc only works on multi-core platforms
[06:07]	matey	okay thats trolling a little
[06:07]	matey	but its almost true
[06:07]	leah	matey: https://sigma.octopart.com/146260243/image/Microchip-PIC12C508A-04-P.jpg
[06:07]	Alternative link	Cloudflare: octopart.com | Alternative: https://web.archive.org/web/https://sigma.octopart.com/146260243/image/Microchip-PIC12C508A-04-P.jpg
[06:07]	mjg59_	leah: Oh no lkcl is involved in the libre silicon project?
[06:07]	leah	why is that an oh no?
[06:08]	matey	that is an oh no
[06:08]	matey	but imo only for the same reason i would say oh no if matt were involved
[06:08]	leah	what's wrong with luke?
[06:08]	mjg59_	My experience is that he has a great deal of confidence that he understands problems better than he does
[06:08]	leah	idk he seems pretty solid
[06:09]	matey	my confidence is not shaken
[06:09]	mjg59_	And tends to drag other people down unhelpful paths
[06:09]	matey	how central is he to libre silicon anyway?
[06:09]	matey	probably not very, this is why im not very concerned
[06:09]	mjg59_	He's not really followed through terribly well on any projects from the past 20 years
[06:09]	leah	isn't that basically every engineer though?
[06:09]	matey	he cant be as bad as todd weaver or leah would already hate him
[06:10]	matey	isn't that basically every engineer though? <- close enough
[06:10]	leah	i've spoken to him a couple of times, even met him (at fosdem 2016)
[06:10]	matey	except the wright brothers
[06:10]	mjg59_	matey: To his credit I don't think he's gained any meaningful personal benefit from any of this
[06:10]	mjg59_	His heart is in entirely the right place
[06:10]	matey	shit they were efficient and focused
[06:10]	leah	mjg59_: libre silicon did a nifty presentation at fosdem 2022
[06:10]	leah	they seem to have their eye on the ball
[06:10]	mjg59_	leah: Was it recorded? I'll try to watch it.
[06:11]	matey	mjg59_: im an anticapitalist, but even i dont think every person thats bad is in it for the money
[06:11]	leah	their eye on the balls, that is
[06:11]	leah	bga solder balls
[06:11]	leah	yeah hang on
[06:11]	leah	mjg59_: https://fosdem.org/2022/schedule/event/libresilicon/
[06:11]	TR Bot	 FOSDEM 2022 - Using LibreSilicon
[06:11]	mjg59_	leah: Thanks!
[06:11]	leah	the recording is embedded in that page
[06:11]	matey	ego is just as dangerous as greed
[06:11]	matey	/me points at kuhn
[06:11]	leah	direct video link: http://bofh.nikhef.nl/events/FOSDEM/2022/D.open-hardware/libresilicon.webm
[06:12]	leah	lol m8 what's your beef with brad
[06:12]	matey	hell i think kuhn believes he is well-intentionewd
[06:12]	matey	what's your beef with brad <- hes trying to be the next stallman
[06:12]	matey	in the worst possible way
[06:12]	matey	its esr all over again
[06:12]	matey	this will not end well
[06:12]	leah	idk sfc seems to be doing good work, within its own niche
[06:12]		*TechrightsBot-tr has quit (connection closed)
[06:12]	mjg59_	leah: Going to drop offline shortly, but again, I sincerely apologise if I gave the impression that I dislike Libreboot as a project - I want as much unauditable stuff out of the boot chain as possible
[06:13]	mjg59_	And I appreciate all the effort you've put into that
[06:13]	matey	/me hopes sfc falls before fsf, not that fsf serves any purpose anymore
[06:13]	leah	mjg59_: if you're serious about that last part, then stop promoting pluton lol
[06:13]	leah	oppose it instead
[06:13]	matey	granted they have busybox and qemu and a lot of other stuff ive enjoyed using under their umbrella
[06:13]	mjg59_	leah: Heh, it's fair to point out that there's a conflict there
[06:13]	leah	conflict?
[06:13]	matey	i think he means payment
[06:13]	mjg59_	leah: Between my stated goals and my actions
[06:14]	leah	lol is mjg59_ a microsoft employee or what
[06:14]	matey	or employment, which is basically the same thing
[06:14]	matey	not every person working for the wrong employer is a softie
[06:14]	leah	or you grow a pair and say fuck you to their job offer
[06:14]	matey	i have no idea if the car people i think matt still works for care about pluton at all
[06:15]	mjg59_	Oh, I've turned down offers from Microsoft
[06:15]	matey	or if his interest in pluton is job-related
[06:15]	leah	mjg59_: what are your actions
[06:15]	leah	also, who is your employer
[06:15]	mjg59_	leah: Talking about security benefits of Pluton
[06:15]	leah	devils advocate then?
[06:15]	matey	ooh, leah, while youre here
[06:16]	leah	even if pluton does give tangible benefits, i wouldn't promote it. it's completely superfluous, at best
[06:16]	leah	and at worst, hostile
[06:16]	matey	20 second (20 minute is fine, i know youre busy) take on moglen?
[06:16]	leah	eben moglen?
[06:16]	matey	yes
[06:16]	leah	i'm only familiar with his earlier involvement in the fsf, up to and including gplv3 drafting process
[06:16]	matey	good guy?
[06:17]	leah	my opinion about him is currently neutral, due to lack of up to date information
[06:17]	matey	fair enough
[06:17]	matey	cheers
[06:17]	matey	keep up the good work
[06:17]	leah	however
[06:17]	leah	my opinion about him up to and including 2007 is that he seemed solid
[06:17]	matey	/me nods
[06:17]	matey	i like him
[06:17]	leah	i don't know what he's done since 07
[06:17]	leah	just so we're clear
[06:18]	matey	its very clear
[06:18]	matey	since you havent followed him im only asking about your opinion of him in that timeframe
[06:18]	matey	i dont like trick questions, they dont help the world very much
[06:18]	leah	i *did* watch him talk in 2015
[06:18]	leah	at fsf30 conference
[06:18]	leah	i think it was fsf30
[06:19]	leah	it was in a building, i think.... milk street? i think the building was on milk street in boston, ma
[06:19]	leah	it was late. like, i think 9pm
[06:19]	matey	mmhmm
[06:19]	leah	all of us went there to a floor on that building
[06:19]	leah	and a bunch of people spoke
[06:19]	leah	there were chairs
[06:19]	leah	and cake
[06:19]	leah	also beer
[06:19]	matey	nice
[06:19]	leah	and eben moglen did a talk
[06:19]	leah	i don't remember the details of the talk
[06:19]	leah	but i'll tell you what i thought of him during the talk:
[06:19]	leah	he seems to have a huge ego
[06:19]	leah	like
[06:19]	leah	for real
[06:20]	leah	but that's not necessarily bad
[06:20]	matey	i mean hes a law professor
[06:20]	leah	that's how i first learned he even exists
[06:20]	leah	i researched his name, afterwards
[06:20]	matey	a lot of successful professors are completely full of themselves anyway
[06:20]	matey	im not saying he is
[06:20]	leah	i got into free software in like, 2006
[06:20]	mjg59_	Oh and there was group that sang the free software song
[06:20]	matey	but if hes VERY confident... a lot of people in lesser positions are
[06:20]	leah	but only really started getting properly clued up around 2012
[06:21]	mjg59_	An actual Hungarian folk band
[06:21]	leah	mjg59_: yep, you were there
[06:21]	leah	i was there
[06:21]	matey	ive been windows-free since 2007
[06:21]	leah	did you see me there?
[06:21]	leah	i wasn't out as trans
[06:21]	leah	we may have spoke, or bumped into each other
[06:21]	leah	you were aware of my existence then
[06:21]	mjg59_	It's possible, I'm afraid I'm terrible at remembering people
[06:21]	leah	well, no matter
[06:22]	leah	i know you were aware, because your derisive tweets about libreboot pre-date that event :P
[06:22]	matey	/me wonders what point matt made against libreboot
[06:22]	leah	yeah let me check
[06:22]	leah	it was some tpm bullshit
[06:22]	mjg59_	2015 was, uh, not a good year for me in general
[06:22]	matey	like i dont care that it was derisive, im just curious what the critique was
[06:22]	leah	about how, derp, libreboot excludes ME
[06:22]	matey	thank fuck 
[06:22]	leah	and yeah, ME on ich9m hardware, handles tpm
[06:23]	leah	and i remove me
[06:23]	mjg59_	It's entirely possible that I was more negative than I should have been
[06:23]	leah	so
[06:23]	matey	you know today i accidentally sold something from the fsf store
[06:23]	leah	matey: btw, nitter is a good way to search someone's twitter
[06:23]	matey	i didnt mean to, believe me
[06:23]	leah	matey: https://nitter.net/mjg59/search
[06:23]	matey	if i patch up any differences between leah and matt too in the same day
[06:23]	matey	i might have to kill myself
[06:23]	matey	yeah i use nitter sometimes
[06:24]	mjg59_	Hey, I don't think leah's going to suddenly forgive me for secure boot stuff
[06:24]	mjg59_	(Which is fair!)
[06:24]	matey	fingers crossed matt
[06:24]	leah	ok, it seems i was overly sensitive when i saw your tweet in 2015
[06:24]	leah	i've just found it
[06:24]	leah	and looking in retrospect
[06:24]	leah	you were just being factual
[06:24]	leah	https://nitter.net/mjg59/search?f=tweets&q=libreboot&since=&until=&near=
[06:25]	matey	matt for my sake, keep pushing pluton
[06:25]	matey	im against it, but YOU shouldnt be
[06:25]	leah	matey: wanna see something truly sexy?
[06:26]	matey	hopefully this will keep a nice divide between you and leah, as god intended
[06:26]	leah	osboot has a logo now
[06:26]	leah	and here is the boot screen, with logo bootsplash:
[06:26]	leah	https://twitter.com/n4of7/status/1505770916265054209
[06:26]	matey	leah: absolutely
[06:26]	leah	mjg59_ is currently blocked by me, thinking of maybe unblocking him. but:
[06:26]	leah	https://nitter.net/n4of7/status/1505770916265054209
[06:26]	leah	in case he wants to see it. lol
[06:27]	leah	eric cartman face. >_< is eric cartman
[06:27]	leah	mjg59_: have you heard about osboot?
[06:27]	matey	fuck thats adorable
[06:27]	leah	i started it back in december, of 2020. read osboot.org if you haven't seen it yet
[06:27]	leah	mjg59_: osboot is what my ideology was in 2015
[06:28]	matey	leah: i follow the future of free software very closely
[06:28]	leah	but i was sequestered by fsf's dogmatism. was making too much money on them. i think osboot has superior goals to libreboot
[06:28]	leah	(is dogmatism a word? or is it just dogma)
[06:28]	matey	i was already up to date on your blog when it was cc0
[06:28]	matey	if it wasnt a word it is now
[06:28]	leah	wait, i released my blog on cc0?
[06:28]	mjg59_	leah: I haven't looked at osboot in detail, but it feels like the most workable compromise given current technology
[06:28]	leah	i don't remember. i changed it a while ago
[06:28]	matey	shakespeare coined "luggage" and a bunch of other words
[06:29]	matey	turns out you can just make up words, and if they stick, thats the proof
[06:29]	leah	it's creative commons non-deriv at present
[06:29]	leah	if you mean vimuser.org blog
[06:29]	matey	yeah that makes me sad
[06:29]	leah	why?
[06:29]	leah	it's just shitposts
[06:29]	matey	no-derivs is so fsf, but thats not why
[06:29]	matey	but they were cc0 shitposts (and im only being agreeable, i dont agree theyre shitposts)
[06:29]	matey	im a free culture advocate who thinks rms was wrong about no-derives
[06:29]	leah	it's just... a shitpost article about lana watchowski's 1999 cry for help
[06:29]	matey	theres nothing other than that wrong with yhour license choice
[06:30]	matey	wrong with that other than ^
[06:30]	leah	plus an article about stallman
[06:30]	matey	basically i just hate no-derives the fsfs penchant for it
[06:30]	leah	oh also me coming out as nb....
[06:30]	leah	and some css thing
[06:30]	matey	yeah i use they now
[06:30]	leah	who cares lol
[06:30]	leah	1337box is cc0 btw
[06:30]	matey	i know
[06:30]	matey	i noticed
[06:30]	matey	it made me happy
[06:31]	matey	particularly that the post about it was cc0 as well-- any gpl-compatible license would do for the software
[06:31]	leah	yeah i figure, web devs have attention deficit anyway, and never read licenses
[06:31]	leah	might aswell go cc0
[06:31]	matey	im not a web dev
[06:31]	leah	they aren't going to comply with expat license
[06:31]	leah	(if it were c code, i'd use expat)
[06:31]	TR News	#Techrights Bulletin for Sunday, March 20, 2022 http://techrights.org/txt full archive: http://techrights.org/txt-archives #gnu #linux #freesw #plaintext
[06:31]	leah	(i use expat license now, on all/most new projects)
[06:31]	TR News	#Techrights full #IPFS index updated just now http://techrights.org/ipfs available as plain text @ http://techrights.org/ipfs/txt #dweb #sharing
[06:32]	matey	expat is...
[06:32]	matey	x11?
[06:32]	leah	no
[06:32]	leah	mit
[06:32]	leah	but it's the expat one
[06:32]	matey	gpl-compatible?
[06:32]	leah	yeah
[06:32]	matey	works for me
[06:32]	leah	sublicensing clause in expat allows full compatibility with gplv2 and 3
[06:32]	matey	nice
[06:32]	leah	that's precisely why i use expat instead of isc
[06:32]	leah	i *want* my work to be used, everywhere
[06:32]	matey	isc isnt compatible with gpl?
[06:33]	leah	it is but....
[06:33]	leah	no sublicensing clause
[06:33]	matey	ok
[06:33]	leah	just to be clear, i specifically prefer expat because it allows sublicensing
[06:33]	matey	/me nods
[06:33]	leah	i actually still think gpl is great
[06:33]	leah	gplv2 was great
[06:33]	matey	im an agpl fan
[06:33]	leah	v3 split the movement, and jinxed it. gplv2 was just called "the gpl" and was the default license, prior to 2007
[06:34]	matey	but i advocate a scientific approach to copyleft
[06:34]	leah	i considered for a while: i will release everything under gplv2-only
[06:34]	matey	in other words, we should watch to see if it works and if it achieves what it wants to 
[06:34]	leah	i used to be a hardcore v3 fan, but i snapped out of that
[06:34]	matey	and if it fails, throw it out
[06:34]	leah	i concluded: copyleft is screwed
[06:34]	matey	im not convinced either is better yet
[06:34]	leah	copyleft only works if everyone uses it
[06:34]	leah	and barely anyone does, these days
[06:34]	matey	im not sure thats true
[06:34]	leah	so i considered the problem: how can i make my work usable everywhere?
[06:34]	leah	and the expat license was the solution i found
[06:34]	matey	yeah if you want your work to be usable in everything you go with permissive
[06:34]	matey	ive used cc0 for software too
[06:35]	leah	specifically, copyleft only works if everyone uses the same *license*
[06:35]		*CParadoxum__ has quit (Ping timeout: 2m30s)
[06:35]	matey	i pushed for cc0 on the fsf compatibility page
[06:35]	leah	and nobody does
[06:35]	matey	they were alreafy working on it
[06:35]	leah	gplv3 solved none of the problems it set out to solve
[06:35]	leah	and split the copyleft community in two
[06:35]	matey	karl fogel screwed that up for osi, thanks karl
[06:35]	leah	then four
[06:35]	leah	then 8
[06:35]		*CParadoxum__ (~quassel@9xkr6pdp2c5xu.irc) has joined #techrights
[06:35]	leah	and poof. now everything is mit or isc
[06:35]	leah	because people got fed up
[06:36]	leah	osi doesn't list cc0?
[06:36]	matey	if it really works out that way, im in favour of a scientific (non-dogmatic, evidence-based) approach to copyleft
[06:36]	leah	matey: copyleft is dead
[06:36]	leah	but freely licensed code is strong
[06:36]	matey	im concerned about corporations taking it over and using it for slapp-like license enforcement. not like they wont if they can.
[06:36]	leah	but it's all going permissive these days
[06:36]	leah	i stopped fighting it
[06:36]	matey	matey: copyleft is dead <- thats what people say
[06:37]	matey	i follow this pretty closely
[06:37]	leah	also
[06:37]	matey	and when i think its dead ill put it behind me
[06:37]	matey	either way im not on a crusade, permissive is free too
[06:37]	leah	the *following* article seriously swayed me. not at first, but it sunk in while i thought about it for a long period after. that, plus other articles, and comments:
[06:37]	leah	this is the article:
[06:37]	matey	/me may have read it
[06:37]	leah	matey: https://unixsheikh.com/articles/the-problems-with-the-gpl.html
[06:38]	matey	oh yeah ive read it
[06:38]	leah	i wholeheartedly agree with almost everything the author says
[06:38]	matey	i wasnt swayed by it
[06:38]	leah	but at first, i fought it
[06:38]	leah	but i thought about it some more
[06:38]	matey	either way im not anti-permissive
[06:38]	leah	and i can't refute a single point
[06:38]	leah	and i prefer facts, not feelings
[06:38]	matey	oh i bet i could, but i havent looked at it in a while
[06:38]	leah	so i adjusted my feelings
[06:38]	leah	this is called: cognitive dissonance
[06:38]	matey	i prefer facts, not feelings <- yes the approach to copyleft should be evidence based
[06:39]	matey	but im not sure copyleft would lose
[06:39]	leah	plus
[06:39]	leah	read the infamous openbsd thread titled "real men don't attack strawmen"
[06:39]	matey	a lot of the people against it are simply convinced its inconvenient, because lobbyists said so
[06:39]	matey	thats not better than wanting copyleft just because rms said
[06:39]	matey	read the infamous openbsd thread titled "real men don't attack strawmen" <- ive read it, and i use openbsd
[06:39]	leah	when you read that thread, don't look at stallman's comments
[06:40]	matey	and rms was unfair to de raadt
[06:40]	leah	look at what the bsd people are saying
[06:40]	matey	and roy is VERY unfair about openbsd
[06:40]	matey	spreading fud 
[06:40]	leah	openbsd is great
[06:40]	matey	ridiculous fud
[06:40]	matey	yes it is
[06:40]	leah	i would argue that openbsd is the *most* free os
[06:40]	matey	openbsd gives you freedom 3. gnu cant do that.
[06:40]	leah	do you have any inclination as to why i would say that?
[06:40]	matey	yeah but im not against what hyperbola is doing
[06:40]	matey	hyperbola is the reason im using openbsd.
[06:40]	leah	it's not because of licensing
[06:40]	leah	openbsd could be gplv3+ and i'd still say it
[06:41]	leah	i say it because:
[06:41]	matey	its because it takes freedom seriously
[06:41]	leah	openbsd has the *cleanest* code you will ever read
[06:41]	matey	yes
[06:41]	matey	you can actually take openbsd
[06:41]	leah	it's the *best*, mostly *well-written* source code ever written, ever
[06:41]	matey	and fork the whole thing
[06:41]	leah	you can read openbsd code and be like, wow, this makes sense
[06:41]	leah	even kernel code
[06:41]	leah	try auditing linux
[06:41]	matey	yes!
[06:41]	leah	i dare you
[06:41]	matey	linux will collapse under its own weight
[06:41]	leah	try auditing any project listed on gnu.org/software
[06:41]	matey	so will gnu within the next 7 years
[06:42]	matey	i know
[06:42]	TR News	The Patent Distortion: 7 Days of News and Blogs, Not a Single Mention of EPO Affairs | Techrights http://techrights.org/2022/03/21/the-patent-distortion-part-6/ | Gemini address: gemini://gemini.techrights.org/2022/03/21/the-patent-distortion-part-6/
[06:42]	leah	matey: there's a meme that gnu currently hosts
[06:42]	leah	it's called:
[06:42]	matey	im not just being agreeable-- these are points fo made for more than a year
[06:42]	matey	ive made
[06:42]	leah	https://www.gnu.org/software/hello/
[06:42]	matey	oh that thing lol
[06:42]	leah	try auditing gnu's implementation of hello world
[06:42]	leah	i tried, just the other week
[06:42]	leah	i attempted to fork it, to create a new program, that i call "insult"
[06:42]	matey	hello world was invented by brian kernighan
[06:42]	leah	it would say "fuck you" in every language
[06:42]	leah	i failed
[06:43]	leah	*i failed* to fork gnu's hello world program
[06:43]	leah	and i'm a competent c programmer
[06:43]	matey	thats because a lot of gnu is unforkable
[06:43]	matey	freedom 3 in theory only
[06:43]	matey	i keep saying this, almost no one gets it
[06:43]	leah	matey: that piece of trash bootstraps both gnulib *and* gettext
[06:43]	leah	just to print hello
[06:43]	matey	systemg
[06:43]	leah	no, systemd is *good* compared to gnu
[06:44]	matey	im not convinced-- same problem, different scale one way or the other
[06:44]	matey	at any rate we agree on where openbsd fits into this
[06:44]	matey	100%
[06:44]	matey	for the same reasons
[06:45]	matey	now explain to roy (im mostly joking, you have more important things to do)
[06:45]	matey	so he can stop trolling openbsd
[06:45]	leah	#include <stdio.h>
[06:45]	leah	int main()
[06:45]	leah	{
[06:45]	leah	print("balls\n");
[06:45]	leah	}
[06:46]	leah	that's hello world
[06:46]	matey	/// giggles
[06:46]	matey	oops
[06:46]	leah	well, add a "return 0;"
[06:46]	leah	6 sloc
[06:46]	matey	the most c ive edited and compiled was a screen lock program
[06:46]	leah	gnu hello is 600 sloc
[06:46]	leah	sloc = source lines of code
[06:46]	matey	i edited some array thing to change the bitmap of the cursor
[06:46]	matey	yes it had a cursor
[06:46]	mjg59_	The GNU coding standards are a thing of their time
[06:46]	leah	also i meant to type printf, not print
[06:46]	leah	it's late. or early
[06:47]	leah	i can't tell anymore
[06:47]	matey	as long as you get the polarity of the neutron flow right
[06:47]	mjg59_	Unfortunately their time is a long time in the past
[06:47]	leah	mjg59_: openbsd coding style is pretty great
[06:47]	leah	i also like seabios source code
[06:47]	mjg59_	GNU still requires a changelog
[06:47]	leah	seabios is a true gem
[06:47]	leah	i encourage you to read seabios source code
[06:47]	leah	it's very clean
[06:48]	leah	coreboot's pretty solid too
[06:48]	mjg59_	Which (a) duplicates the RCS history, and (b) makes merging massively harder
[06:48]	matey	gnu will collapse in 7 years
[06:48]	mjg59_	I hope not
[06:48]	leah	you reckon?
[06:48]	matey	im sure some of it will be salvaged, id encouarge it
[06:48]		*techrights-ipfs-bot has quit (Ping timeout: 2m30s)
[06:48]	leah	mjg59_: why do *you* hope not?
[06:48]	mjg59_	leah: Because I want a high quality GPLed userland
[06:48]	matey	he hopes its sooner
[06:49]	matey	oh i was wrong
[06:49]	leah	mjg59_: but high quality non-gpl userlands do exist
[06:49]	mjg59_	And I would prefer it to be maintained by the community rather than by corporations
[06:49]	leah	that are nonetheless free software
[06:49]	leah	mjg59_: linux is gpl and it's maintained by corporations
[06:49]	leah	openbsd is isc and it's maintained by a community
[06:49]	matey	a community that writes forkable code
[06:49]	leah	also
[06:49]	mjg59_	Given the choice between corporate GPL and community liberal license, I'd take corporate GPL, but I'd prefer community GPL to either
[06:50]	matey	which you need for freedom 3 to actually work
[06:50]	leah	most gcc devs are on ibm payroll
[06:50]	matey	/me had no idea mjg had such a hardon for the gpl
[06:50]		*techrights-ipfs-bot (~techrights-ipfs-bot@pumv3cb2rfinu.irc) has joined #techrights
[06:50]	leah	mjg59_: or, you let the companies add whatever shit code they want to your project, and they can maintain it themselves. their fork will die as soon as they lose interest
[06:51]	leah	and your project chugs along just fine
[06:51]	mjg59_	matey: I'm *extremely* in favour of ensuring that everyone has access to the same freedoms
[06:51]	leah	without that company feeling incentivized to take you over
[06:51]	leah	that's what happened with linux
[06:51]	matey	mjg59_ so am i if it works. leahs the one saying copyleft is dead
[06:51]	mjg59_	I've spent too much time reverse engineering derivates of BSDed code
[06:51]	matey	im saying we should keep taking its pulse, it might not be
[06:51]	matey	but if and when its dead, its dead
[06:52]	leah	mjg59_: copyleft is ok for small projects
[06:52]	leah	the bigger your project gets, the *more* risk it is to corporate takeover if it's copyleft
[06:52]	matey	mjg59_ the best argument for gpl was from someone from x11/xorg maybe... keith... bostic?
[06:52]	leah	ibm/redhat pushes pure garbage in the name of gpl
[06:52]	mjg59_	matey: Packard?
[06:52]	matey	<leah> the bigger your project gets, the *more* risk it is to corporate takeover if it's copyleft <- curious about this
[06:53]	matey	 matey: Packard? <- probably, i can never keep the two straight
[06:53]	matey	because there are like only 2 reasons i ever mention either
[06:53]	leah	matey: if you're forced to release source code of your fork, that means you're now maintaining a public free software project. and you don't want that. that's money you have to spend
[06:53]	matey	one is this gpl thing
[06:53]	matey	/me searches
[06:53]	leah	matey: so your inclination is to upstream your code
[06:53]	leah	matey: and then your inclination is to control the upstream
[06:54]	leah	and as a company, you also don't have an inclination to care about quality
[06:54]	matey	https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cj02_UeUnGQ <- keith packard on why copyleft would have helped x11
[06:54]	leah	you just want to push to market sap
[06:54]	leah	asap*
[06:54]	matey	you just want to push to market sap <- incredibly, my motives here are the same as mjgs
[06:54]	matey	i want people to have freedom
[06:55]	matey	if permissive code means more people have freedom IN PRACTICE then i want permissive
[06:55]	matey	if copyleft means that, i want copyleft
[06:55]	leah	btw i've nothing against copyleft in practise, and in principle it's great
[06:55]	matey	if it depends on the project, that doesnt bother me
[06:55]	leah	but, in practise, it is inferior in a lot of cases
[06:55]	leah	i maintain quite a few gpl'd projects
[06:55]	matey	a lot of people have spent money lobbying against gpl
[06:55]	matey	that doesnt mean gpl is better
[06:56]	leah	and want to license them under expat instead. but meh
[06:56]	leah	too much work
[06:56]	matey	it means greater scepticism is needed for claims that gpl is dead or doesnt work
[06:56]	matey	but if its dead or doesnt work, im not bothered
[06:56]	matey	ive used permissive, ive used copyleft (gpl3, i also like agpl3)
[06:57]	matey	i maintain quite a few gpl'd projects <- more than i do im sure
[06:57]	matey	i need to stress im not married to either scheme-- i just want to see the evaluation be scientific and evidence based
[06:57]	matey	we need more data
[06:57]	matey	probably. 
[06:58]	matey	i used openbsd, im not butthurt that they use permissive. its part of their values as a project
[06:58]	matey	they WANT microsoft to use their code-- instead of writing their own shit
[06:58]	mjg59_	Permissive licenses are free software
[06:58]	matey	yes
[06:58]	mjg59_	It's not what I'm going to prioritise, but it benefits society
[06:58]	matey	there are plenty of arguments for both
[06:59]	matey	i want whichever one makes the most users (all users) free in practice
[06:59]	matey	in theory thats gpl
[06:59]	matey	in practice it may still be gpl
[06:59]	matey	but in theory its definitely gpl
[06:59]	matey	i think we need more data (even now, which does sound pedantic)
● Mar 21
[07:00]	matey	theres been more misinformation than information, for one
[07:00]	matey	and there ARE good arguments for both. 
[07:00]		*SomeH4x0r (~someh4xx@kmujm4s8xqrtu.irc) has joined #techrights
[07:00]	matey	and lately people talk like permissive is non-free
[07:00]	matey	which is simply untrue and misleading, and dogmatic. and not even when rms ever said
[07:01]	matey	what a weird combination
[07:01]	matey	but not something mjg said (hes more prone to arguments that are technically correct)
[07:02]	matey	you can be technically correct and sometimes full of shit in other ways of course
[07:02]	matey	but if someones technically correct you cant get them on technical correctness
[07:02]	matey	in other ways <- like missing context, that sort of thing
[07:02]	IPFS	IPFS downstream 60 minutes average 30.13 k/sec., IPFS upstream 27.60 average k/sec., average swarm size 279.85
[07:02]	TR News	http://techrights.org/2022/03/21/joining-epo-strike/
[07:04]	matey	i think a lot of people at libreplanet consider themselves anticapitalist and against hierarchy
[07:04]	matey	but use tactics that will only serve corporate takeover and resulting hierarchy
[07:04]	TR News	[Meme] Join the EPO Strike | Techrights http://techrights.org/2022/03/21/joining-epo-strike/ | Gemini address: gemini://gemini.techrights.org/2022/03/21/joining-epo-strike/
[07:04]	matey	thats a technical error, even if its well intentioned
[07:06]	mjg59_	matey: Anyway, even if we clearly disagree on some points, thank you for the worthwhile conversation - I've learned some interesting things
[07:07]	TR News	Review: Pardus 21.1 Tux Machines http://www.tuxmachines.org/node/162786
[07:07]	TR News	Linux Kernel 5.17 Released. This is Whats New Tux Machines http://www.tuxmachines.org/node/162787
[07:07]	matey	mjg59_: i dont think we will ever be allies, at least not in the next few lifetimes
[07:07]	matey	but you ARE less obnoxious than matt lee
[07:07]	matey	hell it pains me to say it, but its true
[07:08]	matey	matt lee doesnt even make real arguments
[07:08]	matey	he just changes the gravitational constant of the universe to show that hes at the centre of it
[07:10]	matey	and i wont really kill myself if i accidentally get you to patch things up with leah
[07:10]	matey	ill just spiral into a depression for a couple years
[07:10]	matey	shit happens
[07:10]	TR News	Linux Mint Debian Edition (LMDE) 5 now available http://www.tuxmachines.org/node/162666#comment-33125
[07:11]	TR News	OpenSSL issues fixes for yet another serious vulnerability http://www.tuxmachines.org/node/162593#comment-33126
[07:12]	TR News	"It wasn't after disconnecting from the problem and spending some time away from the computer that it came to me and I figured it out" https://rachelbythebay.com/w/2022/03/19/time/
[07:12]	TR News	"Python has often been touted as a "batteries included" language because of its rich standard library that provides access to numerous utility modules and is distributed with the language" https://lwn.net/SubscriberLink/888043/1bd384391190f7d1/
[07:13]	TR News	Telegrams ban in Brazil has been lifted https://www.theverge.com/2022/3/20/22988183/telegrams-ban-brazil-lifted-president-bolsonaro
[07:14]	TR News	Microsoft Windows TCO https://www.timeshighereducation.com/news/cyber-warfare-becomes-part-curriculum-ukrainian-students
[07:14]	TR News	Gulag Has Opened the Door To Clownflare https://danielmiessler.com/blog/google-has-opened-the-door-to-cloudflare/
[07:14]	Alternative link	Cloudflare: danielmiessler.com | Alternative: https://web.archive.org/web/https://danielmiessler.com/blog/google-has-opened-the-door-to-cloudflare/
[07:15]	TR News	SPY Home components https://michael.stapelberg.ch/posts/2022-03-19-smart-home-components/
[07:15]	Alternative link	Cloudflare: stapelberg.ch | Alternative: https://web.archive.org/web/https://michael.stapelberg.ch/posts/2022-03-19-smart-home-components/
[07:16]	TR News	"Julian and Stella have asked that instead of sending gifts, please consider one of the following..." https://dontextraditeassange.com/events/assange-wedding/
[07:16]	TR News	"The campaign shows examples of situations where competitors agree to fix prices, divide markets, and rig bids all of which are illegal activities" https://itwire.com/government-tech-news/technology-regulation/businesses-warned-about-consequences-of-cartels.html
[07:16]	Alternative link	Cloudflare: itwire.com | Alternative: https://web.archive.org/web/https://itwire.com/government-tech-news/technology-regulation/businesses-warned-about-consequences-of-cartels.html
[07:17]	matey	leah broke http://techrights.org/irc/ with their fosdem link
[07:17]	matey	it hasnt updated in an hour
[07:17]	TR News	Faulty update brainwashes AEG microwaves into thinking theyre steam ovens https://thenextweb.com/news/update-brainwashes-microwaves-thinking-theyre-steam-ovens
[07:17]	Alternative link	Cloudflare: thenextweb.com | Alternative: https://web.archive.org/web/https://thenextweb.com/news/update-brainwashes-microwaves-thinking-theyre-steam-ovens
[07:17]	matey	(i have no idea what actually caused it, the fosdem link was the last update)
[07:17]	schestowitz	let's check
[07:18]		*darwin has quit (Quit: Leaving)
[07:18]		*TechrightsBot-tr (~TR@ju4kayhrhsm6a.irc) has joined #techrights
[07:18]	TechrightsBot-tr	Hello World! I'm TechrightsBot-tr running phIRCe v0.77
[07:18]	schestowitz-TR	right, this is why
[07:19]	schestowitz	as a fallback there is http://techrights.org/irc-archives/irc-status.txt
[07:19]	schestowitz	and there is also another over gemini://
[07:19]	TR News	IRC Proceedings: Sunday, March 20, 2022 | Techrights http://techrights.org/2022/03/21/irc-log-200322/ | Gemini address: gemini://gemini.techrights.org/2022/03/21/irc-log-200322/
[07:19]	TR Bot	 IRC Proceedings: Sunday, March 20, 2022 | Techrights
[07:20]	matey	i presume if one is frozen they all are, but that assumes they work in a way that makes sense to me
[07:20]	leah	anyway
[07:20]	leah	i was afk
[07:20]	schestowitz-TR	matey: no, different code
[07:20]	schestowitz-TR	you can see the code in git
[07:20]	matey	yeah i know, i havent looked
[07:21]	leah	mjg59_: it could just be because i'm tired, but for some reason i no longer consider you an asshole
[07:21]	schestowitz-TR	there's some .fig code we could add there..
[07:21]	leah	i'll unblock you on twitter
[07:21]	TR News	Haiku - An Open Source OS Thats Different From The Norm https://odysee.com/@oldtechbloke:8/haiku-an-open-source-os-that's-different:7
[07:21]	Alternative link	Cloudflare: odysee.com | Alternative: https://web.archive.org/web/https://odysee.com/@oldtechbloke:8/haiku-an-open-source-os-that's-different:7
[07:21]	TR Bot	 Haiku - An Open Source OS That's Different From The Norm
[07:21]	leah	done
[07:22]	matey	<leah> mjg59_: it could just be because i'm tired, but for some reason i no longer consider you an asshole 
[07:22]	matey	goddamnit this must be what oliva feels like on a regular basis
[07:22]	leah	matey: someone disagreeing with me doesn't make them an asshole
[07:22]	leah	matey: what's this now? (regarding oliva. also, which oliva?)
[07:22]	matey	leah that wasnt ever my logic fwiw
[07:23]	matey	leah youre british so i dont assume that youve ever read "alexander and the terrible horrible no good very bad day"
[07:23]	matey	they spelled his first name wrong.
[07:23]	TR News	Why is a Microsofters speaking 'for' the government now? https://itwire.com/opinion-and-analysis-sp-481/open-sauce/the-sky-is-not-falling-yet-but-chris-krebs-says-it-may-still-happen.html
[07:23]	Alternative link	Cloudflare: itwire.com | Alternative: https://web.archive.org/web/https://itwire.com/opinion-and-analysis-sp-481/open-sauce/the-sky-is-not-falling-yet-but-chris-krebs-says-it-may-still-happen.html
[07:23]	TR Bot	- The sky is not falling yet. But Chris Krebs says it may still happen
[07:23]	leah	my problem with mjg59_ was: 1) stallman stance (but i since changed my own mind about stallman) and 2) his earlier statements about libreboot, but i re-read them today, and i'm less offended. i misread his comments, all those years ago
[07:23]	matey	dont change your mind about stallman
[07:23]	leah	i still dislike what mjg59_ did regarding secureboot. and i don't like his promoting in favour of pluton
[07:23]	matey	just fight his anti-free-hardware bullshit
[07:23]	TR News	Arsenal is not enough https://www.vox.com/2022/3/19/22986316/russia-ukraine-cyber-attacks-holding-back
[07:23]	TR Bot	Russia holding back from cyberwar? - Vox
[07:23]	leah	matey: yep
[07:24]	matey	also: there are more olivas?
[07:24]	matey	i only know of the one
[07:25]	leah	i don't know who oliva is
[07:25]	matey	lxo
[07:25]	leah	oh, that guy
[07:25]	leah	i call him by his given name
[07:25]	matey	thats reasonable
[07:26]	leah	what about lxo?
[07:26]	matey	its also more typing
[07:26]	TR News	"Alexandre de Moraes, a Supreme Court judge, said he was blocking Telegram because the app had not fully responded to previous orders to remove the accounts of a prominent supporter of President Jair Bolsonaro." https://www.nytimes.com/2022/03/18/world/americas/brazil-bans-telegram.html
[07:26]	Alternative link	Cloudflare: nytimes.com | Alternative: https://web.archive.org/web/https://www.nytimes.com/2022/03/18/world/americas/brazil-bans-telegram.html
[07:26]	TR Bot	 Brazil Bans Telegram Over Disinformation Concerns - The New York Times
[07:26]	matey	just his string of luck with regards to the fsf
[07:26]	leah	yeah but
[07:26]	leah	you said he feels like something on a regular basis
[07:26]	leah	feels like what?
[07:26]	matey	leah: today i sold fsf merchandise accidentally
[07:26]	leah	and what relation does that have with this chat
[07:27]	TR News	html
[07:27]	matey	then i helped patch things up between one of my favourite people and least favourite people
[07:27]	TR News	"Disinformation in wartime is as old as war itself, but today war unfolds in the age of social media and digital diplomacy." https://www.nytimes.com/2022/03/20/world/asia/russia-putin-propaganda-media.html
[07:27]	Alternative link	Cloudflare: nytimes.com | Alternative: https://web.archive.org/web/https://www.nytimes.com/2022/03/20/world/asia/russia-putin-propaganda-media.html
[07:27]	TR Bot	 The Lies Putin Tells to Justify Russias War on Ukraine - The New York Times
[07:27]	leah	idk lxo seems to still have some clout at the fsf
[07:27]	leah	he's on teh voting members list
[07:27]	matey	and to top it off i helped roy fix a bug on his website
[07:27]	TR News	"The word that song was censored for was earthquake. And it is that on September 19, 1985 a strong telluric movement had hit the capital of the country, leaving a bad memory in the population." ttps://www.parisbeacon.com/63977/
[07:27]	matey	this is a fuck-awful day 
[07:28]	leah	why?
[07:28]	matey	because its not going how i want
[07:28]	matey	however, there were some high points
[07:28]	leah	sounds like every day of my life
[07:28]	leah	you'll get used to it
[07:28]	matey	the part about free hardware just about makes up for the rest
[07:28]	schestowitz	lxo https://media.libreplanet.org/u/libreplanet/m/the-singularity-the-matrix-and-the-terminator-86e0/
[07:28]	TR Bot	 The Singularity, the Matrix, and the Terminator GNU MediaGoblin
[07:29]	matey	<leah> sounds like every day of my life <- im really sorry
[07:29]	leah	no need to be sorry
[07:29]	leah	it's true of most people
[07:29]	leah	it's actually a good thing
[07:29]	matey	/me has been waiting for this free hardware stuff for a few years now
[07:29]	leah	when you think about it
[07:29]	matey	because what doesnt kill you makes terrible pop anthems?
[07:30]	leah	if you day went exactly how you want, all the time, your life would be meaningless
[07:30]	matey	thats true
[07:30]	leah	because you'd be able to predict every single day
[07:30]	TR News	GDPR would be worthless if not enforced https://www.newscientist.com/article/2312820-nearly-all-websites-may-breach-gdpr-legislation-around-data-usage/ newscientist paywall http://techrights.org/2021/06/10/edps-gdpr-epo-impunity/
[07:30]	Alternative link	Cloudflare: newscientist.com | Alternative: https://web.archive.org/web/https://www.newscientist.com/article/2312820-nearly-all-websites-may-breach-gdpr-legislation-around-data-usage/
[07:30]	TR Bot	 GDPR legislation around data usage may be breached by nearly all websites | New Scientist
[07:30]	TR Bot	 The European Data Protection Supervisor (EDPS) Needs to Get Its Act Together on the EPOs GDPR Violations | Techrights
[07:30]	matey	because what doesnt kill you makes terrible pop anthems? <- this is recursive
[07:31]	matey	unless the terrible pop anthems actually kill you
[07:32]	matey	"i survived the katy perry years"
[07:32]	mjg59_	leah: Hey, thanks! Please do feel free to continue to disagree with me
[07:32]	TR News	"The operator of MP3Juices and YTMP3, two of the best-known YouTube downloaders, is taking action to protect these valuable brands" https://torrentfreak.com/youtube-rippers-ask-google-to-remove-copycats-from-the-search-results-220320/
[07:32]	Alternative link	Cloudflare: torrentfreak.com | Alternative: https://web.archive.org/web/https://torrentfreak.com/youtube-rippers-ask-google-to-remove-copycats-from-the-search-results-220320/
[07:32]	TR Bot	Rippers Ask Google to Remove 'Copycats' From Search Results * TorrentFreak
[07:34]	TR News	HYPE. https://www.commondreams.org/views/2022/03/20/riding-blockchain-can-tech-be-revolutionary
[07:34]	Alternative link	Cloudflare: commondreams.org | Alternative: https://web.archive.org/web/https://www.commondreams.org/views/2022/03/20/riding-blockchain-can-tech-be-revolutionary
[07:34]	TR Bot	 Opinion | Riding the Blockchain: Can Tech Be Revolutionary? | Alexandria Shaner
[07:34]	mjg59_	leah: Not all my ideas are good, and having people in the free software community disagree with me helps me figure out whether they're good or not
[07:35]	TR News	"he biggest business in America is stealing and defrauding the federal government, Uncle Sam, and you the taxpayers. In terms of sheer stolen dollars, the total amount is greater than the annual sales of Amazon and Walmart over the past two years." https://www.commondreams.org/views/2022/03/20/commercial-defrauding-uncle-sam-biggest-booming-business
[07:35]	Alternative link	Cloudflare: commondreams.org | Alternative: https://web.archive.org/web/https://www.commondreams.org/views/2022/03/20/commercial-defrauding-uncle-sam-biggest-booming-business
[07:35]	TR Bot	 Opinion | Commercial Defrauding of Uncle SamBiggest Booming Business | Ralph Nader
[07:36]	leah	mjg59_: i still do disagree with you, on a lot of things
[07:36]	leah	i merely no longer dislike you. you're now in my neutral list
[07:36]	leah	good day
[07:36]	leah	(i really do have things to be doing)
[07:37]	leah	matey: nuclear
[07:37]	leah	:P
[07:37]	matey	i felt it
[07:37]	TR News	Is tinnitus a rare side effect of Covid vaccines? https://www.nbcnews.com/health/health-news/tinnitus-rare-side-effect-covid-vaccines-rcna20613
[07:37]	TR Bot	 Is tinnitus a rare side effect of Covid vaccines?
[07:37]	leah	sometimes, nuclear implosions happen
[07:37]	matey	/me survived katy perry too
[07:38]	matey	but free hardware ftw
[07:38]	leah	can you survive this: https://pbs.twimg.com/media/FOWSp4KXwAArsvm?format=jpg&name=4096x4096
[07:38]	leah	can you survive this level of cuteness
[07:38]	leah	that's the bootsplash screen in osboot. i made it recently, based on the logo (i did not make the logo itself)
[07:39]	matey	i hope youre comfortable having the worlds cutest free software logo
[07:39]	leah	i wanted it to have a more "hello kitty" vibe but my graphics guy came up with this instead
[07:39]	leah	actually, he made that chip logo with >_
[07:39]	matey	no i see the hjello kitty in it
[07:39]	leah	intending for it to be like, the standard terminal icon
[07:39]	matey	its very sanrio
[07:39]	leah	you know >_ in terminal emulators. on the icon for them
[07:39]	matey	they might even sue
[07:39]	matey	they wont win of course
[07:39]	XRevan86	leah: Feels like Ubuntu.
[07:40]	leah	i suggested: make it eric cartman face instead
[07:40]	leah	and it Just Works
[07:40]	matey	bite your fucking tongue xrevan
[07:40]		*XRevan86 refuses.
[07:40]	matey	figures
[07:40]	leah	matey: i wasn't insulted
[07:40]	matey	i wasnt either
[07:40]	matey	just having fun
[07:40]	leah	in fact, i thought so too
[07:40]	leah	that it looks ubuntu-ish
[07:40]	leah	because purple
[07:41]	matey	yeah but the colours arent really part of the logo
[07:41]	leah	but yeah, this is an illegal level of cuteness
[07:41]	matey	also i agree that with the purple... 
[07:41]	leah	i'm going to be arrested by the bureaucrats
[07:41]	matey	what i like best about it really 
[07:41]	matey	is that its the cutest free software logo ever
[07:41]	TR News	"The Chinese city of Shenzhen widely billed as the tech manufacturing capital of the world has relaxed its COVID-19 restrictions in ways the city government expects will allow industrial production to resume." https://www.theregister.com/2022/03/21/shenzhen_relaxes_covid_restrictions/
[07:41]	Alternative link	Cloudflare: theregister.com | Alternative: https://web.archive.org/web/https://www.theregister.com/2022/03/21/shenzhen_relaxes_covid_restrictions/
[07:41]	TR Bot	 China's tech hub restarts production despite COVID The Register
[07:42]	matey	but behind that cuteness isnt something terrible, but something that represents technical prowess
[07:42]	matey	and reasonable intentions
[07:42]	matey	for a change...
[07:42]	leah	yeah well
[07:42]	leah	that logo
[07:42]	leah	is the feeling you get
[07:42]	leah	when trying to flash osboot
[07:42]	matey	heh
[07:45]	TR News	To go along with hideous levels of inflation, Walmart gives Walmart+ to employees instead of a cost of living adjustment. https://baronhk.wordpress.com/2022/03/21/to-go-along-with-hideous-levels-of-inflation-walmart-gives-walmart-to-employees-instead-of-a-cost-of-living-adjustment/
[07:45]	TR Bot	 To go along with hideous levels of inflation, Walmart gives Walmart+ to employees instead of a cost of living adjustment. BaronHK's Rants
[07:45]	matey	/me wants to flash osboot just for the logo
[07:45]	matey	yes that is stupid
[07:45]	matey	but it should be understandable
[07:46]	leah	yep, that's precisely why i commissioned it
[07:46]	matey	who created it?
[07:46]	leah	without even realizing. i woke up one day and someone had simply submitted it
[07:46]	matey	wow, nice
[07:46]	leah	this guy: https://gitlab.com/ioanm
[07:46]	Alternative link	Cloudflare: gitlab.com | Alternative: https://web.archive.org/web/https://gitlab.com/ioanm
[07:46]	TR Bot	Moldovan GitLab
[07:46]	leah	he made it
[07:46]	matey	no one i know then
[07:47]	TR News	Linux Kernel 5.17 Brings New Hardware Support And Steam Deck Improvements http://www.tuxmachines.org/node/162775#comment-33127
[07:47]		*XRevan86 refused to look at the Skulls logo and made https://i.ibb.co/mChdKnJ/bootsplash.png a few years back.
[07:47]	leah	he came out of nowhere, and in an act of sheer terrorism, made this illegally cute logo
[07:47]	matey	does osboot support openbsd yet?
[07:47]	leah	and i merged it
[07:47]	leah	:)
[07:47]	TR Bot	 Linux Kernel 5.17 Officially Released, This Is Whats New | Tux Machines
[07:47]	leah	matey: other way around
[07:47]	TR News	LibrePlanet: "Living Liberation" Day two retrospective, and motivation for freedom Tux Machines http://www.tuxmachines.org/node/162788
[07:47]	leah	but yes, you can boot openbsd
[07:47]	matey	sweeeeeeet
[07:47]	TR Bot	 LibrePlanet: "Living Liberation" Day two retrospective, and motivation for freedom | Tux Machines
[07:48]	matey	this illegally cute logo <- it might be so cute it violates the code of conduct
[07:48]	leah	what code of conduct?
[07:48]	matey	THE code of conduct
[07:48]	matey	/me has no idea
[07:48]	leah	?
[07:48]	leah	i don't have a CoC in any of my projects
[07:48]	matey	bonus
[07:48]	leah	people seem to just behave sensibly, so i don't feel the need
[07:49]	leah	human decency is common sense
[07:49]	matey	voltaire would protest
[07:49]	leah	my code of conduct is the moral values that my mother instilled in me
[07:49]	matey	nice
[07:50]	leah	and someone elses will have instilled different values in them. it takes all sorts to make a world
[07:51]	TR News	Mabox Linux - Beautiful Arch Linux with Openbox [Review] Tux Machines http://www.tuxmachines.org/node/162789
[07:51]	TR Bot	 Mabox Linux - Beautiful Arch Linux with Openbox [Review] | Tux Machines
[07:52]	matey	it always did before
[07:53]	TR News	9to5Linux Weekly Roundup: March 20th, 2022 Tux Machines http://www.tuxmachines.org/node/162790
[07:53]	TR Bot	 9to5Linux Weekly Roundup: March 20th, 2022 | Tux Machines
[07:54]	leah	matey: i publicly requested a logo last year
[07:54]	leah	and then
[07:54]	matey	voil
[07:54]	matey	a
[07:54]	leah	one person soon responded, but he was a complete nutcase and though he made an excellent logo, i didn't want to have to thank him
[07:54]	leah	so i rejected it
[07:54]	leah	that was last year
[07:55]	leah	then the other guy i linked, came to irc a few days ago, and showed me what he had made
[07:55]	matey	i publically requested a federated free software/free hardware federation in 2018
[07:55]	leah	his logo has >_ not >_<
[07:55]	leah	originally it was >_
[07:55]	matey	federated federation! (the only kind)
[07:55]	leah	i simply suggested: make it >_<
[07:55]	matey	so i can relate
[07:55]	leah	and it was done
[07:56]	leah	matey: if someone comes up with a good idea, someone else already did
[07:56]	matey	typically yes
[07:56]	leah	the one who gets the gold is the one who has the courage to run with it
[07:56]	matey	oh i dont care about the gold
[07:56]	matey	i want a federation
[07:57]	leah	there is always gold
[07:57]	matey	i knew it would have to be pulled off by someone with the right influence
[07:57]	leah	gold just means, reward or recognition of some kind
[07:57]	matey	the reward is that the federation exists
● Mar 21
[08:01]	schestowitz	MinceR: gemini://nytpu.com/cheetahs/D536.jpg
[08:01]	IPFS	IPFS downstream 60 minutes average 26.41 k/sec., IPFS upstream 33.70 average k/sec., average swarm size 279.85
[08:02]	TR News	"An easy to setup server for the XMPP chat protocol. I'm the only user on it right now but it's served me well in talking to folks on other servers." gemini://moddedbear.xyz/logs/2022-03-20-how-to-get-into-self-hosting.gmi
[08:04]	TR News	"Please pull hwmon updates for Linux v5.18 from signed tag" https://lore.kernel.org/lkml/20220320231317.2171300-1-linux@roeck-us.net/
[08:04]	TR Bot	 [GIT PULL] hwmon updates for v5.18 - Guenter Roeck
[08:06]		*oarion7 has quit (Quit: Running IRC on a charmed medieval abacus.)
[08:07]		*CrystalMath (~coderain@932arfbra7k66.irc) has joined #techrights
[08:10]		*inky (~inky@5.77.187.22) has joined #techrights
[08:11]	TR News	"(Sponsored)" :/ https://www.cnx-software.com/2022/03/21/ai-thinker-ra-08-lorawan-module-features-asr6601-chip/ see https://www.cnx-software.com/2022/03/21/ai-thinker-ra-08-lorawan-module-features-asr6601-chip/
[08:11]	Alternative link	Cloudflare: cnx-software.com | Alternative: https://web.archive.org/web/https://www.cnx-software.com/2022/03/21/ai-thinker-ra-08-lorawan-module-features-asr6601-chip/
[08:11]	TR Bot	 Ai-Thinker Ra-08 LoRaWAN module features ASR6601 chip (Sponsored) - CNX Software
[08:12]	TR News	"Given Poland's interests and the uncertainty of a true link between the vaccine and tinnitus not to mention a strong anti-vaccine movement why would he publicize his condition and suspicion that a vaccine could be involved?" https://www.nbcnews.com/health/health-news/tinnitus-rare-side-effect-covid-vaccines-rcna20613
[08:12]	TR Bot	 Is tinnitus a rare side effect of Covid vaccines?
[08:12]		*inky_ has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
[08:21]	leah	anyway yeah, throwing code over the wall and putting it under gpl doesn't automatically make it actually free in practise
[08:21]	leah	it needs to actually be readable, maintainable and usable
[08:21]	TR News	Twitter: Were Actually a News Site, Follow These Tweets and Twits | Techrights http://techrights.org/2022/03/21/ukraine-in-twitter/ | Gemini address: gemini://gemini.techrights.org/2022/03/21/ukraine-in-twitter/
[08:21]	TR Bot	 Twitter: Were Actually a News Site, Follow These Tweets and Twits | Techrights
[08:22]	leah	i can name plenty of software, copyleft or not, that i describe in the following way:
[08:22]	leah	binary blob, masquerading as source code
[08:22]	leah	this is a level of nuance that fsf people miss
[08:22]	leah	for example, if someone were to ship a machine that had tianocore on it, with source code, fsf would regard that machine as "libre"
[08:22]	leah	i wouldn't
[08:23]	leah	tianocore is a piece of shit
[08:23]	leah	try auditing any of it
[08:23]	leah	source code needs to actually be a usable reference for it to be considered free, in my book, regardless of what free license it uses
[08:24]	leah	i need to be able to easily show a section of it to someone, and have that person understand it, or easily be able to
[08:24]	leah	otherwise, what's the point. if only 1-2 people understands it
[08:24]	leah	another example is amd's agesa codebase in coreboot, back when they were released source code
[08:24]	leah	the code is unusable, and coreboot later threw most of it out
[08:24]	leah	(without replacing it)
[08:25]	leah	if you or a small group of people can't feasibly fork the whole thing, then how can you say it's free? if you can't actually do it, in practise
[08:26]	leah	most people just basically look at the license and then look whether it includes .c files, or just .o files
[08:26]	leah	you must look deeper
[08:26]	leah	i have higher standards for what i consider "free"
[08:27]	leah	it's only free in practise if you can actually make use of it in a reasonable way
[08:27]	leah	a lot of people don't get that
[08:27]	matey	<leah> binary blob, masquerading as source code <- i call it free in license only
[08:27]	leah	and almost everything the companies push is garbage, whether they release the source code or not
[08:27]	leah	if they release the code, that's them showing their shame
[08:28]	matey	but ive also described it as a blob in source code form
[08:28]	leah	the openbsd position is better:
[08:28]	leah	specifications, not code
[08:28]	leah	they demand specs
[08:28]	leah	and then they write all the code themselves
[08:28]	leah	and they do it well
[08:28]	matey	if you or a small group of people can't feasibly fork the whole thing <- this is why i say linux (and too often gnu) are unforkable
[08:28]	matey	once its less trouble to rewrite than clean up
[08:28]	matey	its not forkable
[08:29]	leah	linux is non-free, by my standard
[08:29]	matey	i mean if rewriting it is easier-- thats the problem with non-free software! 
[08:29]	matey	<leah> linux is non-free, by my standard <- no freedom 3
[08:29]	matey	note that someone demanded an exception to this the other day, which i have not ENTIRELY discounted
[08:29]	leah	if you want to know what i mean by "blob masquerading as code"
[08:29]	leah	download:
[08:29]	leah	gnu grub
[08:29]	leah	or
[08:29]	leah	gnu hello
[08:29]	matey	gnu gnub <- yes
[08:30]	leah	arguably gcc aswell
[08:30]	matey	its becoming that way
[08:30]	leah	(llvm is cleaner)
[08:30]	matey	gcc is slightly different because you COULD fork an older version and it MIGHT be worthwhile to do so
[08:30]	matey	i dont think linux has that (really it doesnt)
[08:30]	matey	(just use a bsd kernel)
[08:31]	matey	hurd was a bsd kernel! gnu was originally going to use a bsd kernel
[08:31]	matey	now theyre like no, its not gpl
[08:31]	matey	ffs, do they think hurd was based on a gpl-licensed kernel? 
[08:31]	leah	actually
[08:31]	leah	damien zammit has been doing a lot of nice work on hurd over the last year or so
[08:31]	leah	and he's been incorporating netbsd drivers in hurd
[08:31]	matey	if he can throw thiebalt under the bus ill consider hurd 
[08:31]	leah	due to its rump kernel design, that's legally possible
[08:32]	leah	the kernel in grub is really nice btw
[08:32]	leah	yes, grub has a kernel
[08:33]	matey	theres a kernel in...
[08:33]	leah	it's actually a tiny os with a shell, running programs
[08:33]	matey	yeah when the config is borked
[08:33]	matey	you get a shell
[08:33]	matey	it makes sense, i never considered that it was a kernel
[08:33]	leah	there is always a shell
[08:33]	TR News	Links 21/3/2022: LibrePlanet Closes | Techrights http://techrights.org/2022/03/21/libreplanet-closes/ | Gemini address: gemini://gemini.techrights.org/2022/03/21/libreplanet-closes/
[08:33]	leah	that screen you see for your config, is just a program interpreting your config, and displaying a menu
[08:33]	TR Bot	 Links 21/3/2022: LibrePlanet Closes | Techrights
[08:34]	leah	it's basically an interactive subset of bash
[08:34]	matey	there is always a shell <- until we can communicate telepathically with the bus, its useful
[08:34]	leah	with a nice menu system
[08:34]	leah	grub has a lot of features that almost nobody uses
[08:34]	leah	for example, you can directly write intel registers
[08:35]	leah	for example
[08:35]	leah	it has networking support
[08:35]	leah	you can load a kernel over tftp with grub
[08:35]	leah	did you know that?
[08:35]	matey	gurb and hurd are both hopelessly tied to intel anyway-- tell me im wrong, you might know
[08:35]	leah	you're wrong
[08:35]	TR News	Proprietary Software Leftovers Tux Machines http://www.tuxmachines.org/node/162791
[08:35]	TR Bot	 Proprietary Software Leftovers | Tux Machines
[08:35]	leah	it runs on many platforms
[08:35]	TR News	Programming Leftovers Tux Machines http://www.tuxmachines.org/node/162792
[08:35]	TR Bot	 Programming Leftovers | Tux Machines
[08:35]	matey	you can load a kernel over tftp with grub <- funnily enough daemonfc mentioned this yesterday, regarding vxworks
[08:35]	TR News	Todays #HowTos | #UNIX Tux Machines http://www.tuxmachines.org/node/162793
[08:35]	TR Bot	 today's howtos | Tux Machines
[08:35]	matey	i wonder if vxworks was a ripoff too
[08:35]	leah	grub also runs bare metal on arm now
[08:36]	leah	also uefi arm, via uboot
[08:36]	matey	ok so grub isnt necessarily tied to intel
[08:36]	leah	it's decidedly not
[08:36]	leah	in fact, that was one of the first things they did with grub2
[08:36]	matey	what about hurd? any prayer of getting it onto other platforms?
[08:36]	leah	separating i386-pc stuff from generic stuff
[08:36]	leah	and porting it to more platforms
[08:36]	matey	first time ive heard someone tell me a GOOD reason for grub 2
[08:37]	leah	as far as i know, hurd is pretty i386-centric
[08:37]	leah	and i do mean: i386
[08:37]	matey	yeah
[08:37]	matey	that will be its downfall
[08:37]	leah	*3*86
[08:37]	leah	emphasis on 3
[08:37]	matey	understood
[08:37]	matey	with all the limitations thereof
[08:37]	leah	damien has changed that
[08:37]	matey	has he
[08:37]	leah	did you know: you can boot and use hurd now, on an x200
[08:37]	matey	i did not
[08:37]	leah	i don't document it on libreboot.org
[08:37]	leah	but you can
[08:38]	leah	ping damo22 about it on libera irc
[08:38]	leah	(that's damien)
[08:38]	matey	we are actually talking more about free software than daemonfc can talk about blacks and mandy
[08:38]	matey	guinness book here we come
[08:38]	leah	i saw an interesting video about microkernels recently
[08:39]	leah	let me see if i can find it
[08:39]		*darwin (~darwin@7d3n498busjrn.irc) has joined #techrights
[08:39]	matey	was it produced on 8mm film?
[08:39]	leah	ok well, look up "hubris kernel" by 0xide
[08:39]	matey	will do
[08:40]	matey	love the name
[08:40]	leah	and here is the video:
[08:40]	leah	https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cypmufnPfLw
[08:40]	TR Bot	https://yewtu.be/watch?v=cypmufnPfLw
[08:40]	TR Bot	yewtu.be | Twitter Space 12/13/2021 -- The Pragmatism of Hubris - Invidious
[08:40]	matey	awesome, thanks
[08:40]	leah	2000 sloc
[08:41]	leah	that's what they say, in the video
[08:41]	matey	unreal
[08:41]	leah	i haven't looked at the software itself, i've only read about it and watched that video
[08:41]	leah	tiny, tiny kernel
[08:41]	matey	asm or c?
[08:41]	leah	haven't checked
[08:41]	matey	ill do it
[08:41]	leah	if it's 2000, probably not asm
[08:42]	leah	they mention C in the video
[08:42]	leah	though
[08:42]	leah	i think they use rust?
[08:42]	leah	idk, feel free to look into it yourself
[08:42]	matey	aww no
[08:42]	leah	i need to... get back to the thing i should have been doing for the last 12 hours
[08:42]	matey	good luck
[08:42]	leah	that irc has been distracting me from
[08:42]	matey	yeah but
[08:42]	matey	it was really cool, thank you
[08:42]	leah	you know the jealous girlfriend meme?
[08:42]	matey	yeah ive used it
[08:42]	leah	well, i think they called it the distracted boyfriend meme
[08:43]	matey	yes thats the one
[08:43]	leah	yeah i'm like that
[08:43]	leah	real work is the girlfriend
[08:43]		*zedomatic (~zedomatic@zgwesimerdb6c.irc) has joined #techrights
[08:43]	leah	irc is the hot lady
[08:43]	matey	heh
[08:43]	leah	and i'm the distracted one
[08:43]	matey	cheers
[08:43]	leah	;)
[08:43]	leah	see you later
[08:44]	leah	i'm definitely rebooking a few shipments for tomorrow probably
[08:44]	leah	every friday, i'm like: weekend! more time to do work
[08:44]	leah	also friday, and weekend: everyone on irc pings me
[08:44]	leah	monday: zero work performed during weekend
[08:44]	leah	always zero
[08:44]	matey	you should move your week 2 or 3 days forward
[08:44]	matey	like daylight savings
[08:44]	matey	its wednesday!
[08:44]	leah	i need to delete weechat
[08:45]	leah	and never come back to irc
[08:45]	matey	that might also work
[08:45]	leah	and just keep myself logged in with a bouncer
[08:45]	leah	that auto-responds with an AI
[08:45]	leah	that i still get distracted writing for the next 6 months
[08:45]	matey	vrms, meet vleah
[08:45]	leah	so you see my problem
[08:45]	matey	yeah its recursive
[08:45]	leah	my time is cake
[08:45]	matey	so youre like the distracted boyfriend meme
[08:45]	leah	and i get none of it
[08:46]	matey	but off into the distance like an old journey music video (i think queen as well)
[08:46]	TR News	"Why GNOME 42 is the release weve all been waiting for. Plus, we attempt to install Linux on an M1 MacBook live on the show." https://www.jupiterbroadcasting.com/147962/it-went-real-bad-linux-unplugged-450/
[08:46]	Alternative link	Cloudflare: jupiterbroadcasting.com | Alternative: https://web.archive.org/web/https://www.jupiterbroadcasting.com/147962/it-went-real-bad-linux-unplugged-450/
[08:46]	TR Bot	 It Went Real Bad | LINUX Unplugged 450 | Jupiter Broadcasting
[08:46]	matey	leah, personal question
[08:46]	matey	any autism spectrum?
[08:46]	matey	little bit?
[08:47]	matey	you can ignore that
[08:47]	matey	only curious
[08:49]	matey	/me isnt sure it doesnt apply a little bit to all geniuses (in a loose and undiagnosable, non-medical-industrial way) anyway
[08:49]	TR News	My favorite Linux top command options Tux Machines http://www.tuxmachines.org/node/162794
[08:49]	TR Bot	 My favorite Linux top command options | Tux Machines
[08:49]	TR News	Todays #HowTos | #UNIX Tux Machines http://www.tuxmachines.org/node/162795
[08:49]	TR Bot	 today's howtos | Tux Machines
[08:50]	matey	condition: genius; side effects: you already know
[08:50]	TR News	Best Free and Open Source Alternatives to Google Keep Tux Machines http://www.tuxmachines.org/node/162796
[08:50]	TR Bot	 Best Free and Open Source Alternatives to Google Keep | Tux Machines
[08:51]	TR News	Linux Mint Debian Edition (LMDE) 5 is Here with Debian 11 Bullseye http://www.tuxmachines.org/node/162666#comment-33128
[08:51]	TR Bot	 LMDE (Linux Mint Debian Edition) 5 Elsie Is Now Available for Download | Tux Machines
[08:53]	leah	matey: definitely autistic spectrum. with a touch of anti-social ;)
[08:53]	matey	cheers
[08:53]	leah	and i've now answered emails
[08:54]	leah	my daily worklist is very strict. and i've a pile of machines that just need packing. i'll go afk now and do that
[08:54]	leah	matey: i'm diagnosed as autistic
[08:54]	leah	nhs diagnosis in the uk. i was diagnosed as an adult, and went there on a whim just to confirm. the lady said i'm "very clearly" autistic
[08:54]	matey	dont take it the wrong way if i feel a little like i talked to rms today
[08:54]	matey	its not 1:1 the same
[08:54]	leah	the point is well taken, and i'm not insulted
[08:55]	leah	i'm honoured that you would compare me to him
[08:55]	matey	and i dont mean because youre both on the spectrum either
[08:55]	matey	well i mean it
[08:55]	matey	we need more people like him
[08:55]	leah	i've expressed major disagreement with his positions, in a modern context
[08:55]	matey	i can count them on my hand right now
[08:55]	leah	however, rms was my main inspiration in early days
[08:55]	leah	and i still greatly respect him
[08:55]	matey	if rms knew the things you did-- and he knows plenty, but different area
[08:55]	matey	he would be VERY frustrated with his positions (that he has now)
[08:55]	leah	matey: people have said the same, before
[08:56]	TR News	LibrePlanet 2019 photo https://media.libreplanet.org/u/libreplanet/m/computer-components-closeup/
[08:56]	TR Bot	 Computer components closeup GNU MediaGoblin
[08:56]	leah	my brainwave patterns are very similar to his. we think similarly, but we have differing positions in key areas
[08:56]	matey	yeah but
[08:56]	matey	this is something ive been weighing, carefully, for quite a while
[08:56]	matey	and i was on the fence 
[08:56]	matey	but im pretty confident about it now
[08:56]		*techrights-ipfs-bot has quit (Ping timeout: 2m30s)
[08:56]	matey	we need more of him
[08:56]	matey	ive got another one im thinking of too
[08:57]	leah	respect the mission, not the man
[08:57]	matey	well i respect both
[08:57]	leah	i say that about myself too
[08:57]	matey	but i wont kiss anyones arse for being wrong
[08:57]	leah	(though i'm not a man)
[08:57]	matey	not even a hero
[08:57]	leah	btw
[08:57]	leah	rms has never said he's autistic
[08:58]	leah	but he does show clear signs of autism
[08:58]	matey	no, i read his bio-- i know what he said
[08:58]	matey	if rms isnt autistic they might as well throw asd out an start over
[08:58]	leah	i think what you've picked up on is that rms is a very "forceful" person
[08:58]	matey	no, i know more about autism than stereotypes
[08:58]	matey	but he is very stubborn, thats a fact
[08:59]	leah	i think you've contributed a lot to today's discussions also
[08:59]	leah	you have a keen intellect and an ability to get to the heart of the matter
[08:59]	matey	i am flattered
● Mar 21
[09:00]	matey	truly
[09:00]	leah	anyway
[09:00]	leah	laters
[09:00]	matey	to work!
[09:00]	leah	to bed
[09:00]	matey	fair enough
[09:00]	matey	o/
[09:01]	leah	just gonna pack stuff i did on friday night
[09:01]	leah	my roommate will answer the door when ups comes
[09:01]	TR News	Linux 5.17 release Main changes, Arm, RISC-V, and MIPS architectures http://www.tuxmachines.org/node/162775#comment-33130
[09:01]	TR Bot	 Linux Kernel 5.17 Officially Released, This Is Whats New | Tux Machines
[09:01]	leah	got like 3 not done. 10 that are done. just gonna pack and label them now. then i will nap
[09:01]	matey	what are the odds that osboot bricks my asus mobo from a few years ago
[09:01]	matey	because i dont know wtf im doing 
[09:01]	leah	100%, unless it's supported by coreboot
[09:02]	leah	if supported, just add it to osboot
[09:02]	matey	good to know
[09:02]	leah	see: https://osboot.org/docs/maintain/
[09:02]	TR Bot	 osboot osbmk maintenance manual
[09:02]	matey	its too ambitious for me to try... real soon
[09:02]	leah	if coreboot supports it, it's easy to just add a config to the osboot build system, named osbmk
[09:02]	leah	that documented i linked explains how
[09:02]	matey	thank you
[09:02]	leah	osboot is to coreboot what alpine is to linux:
[09:02]	leah	a distribution
[09:02]	leah	in this case, written in bash
[09:02]	matey	cool
[09:02]	leah	for reals
[09:02]	leah	have fun!
[09:02]	matey	o/
[09:03]	leah	like most of the work on osboot/libreboot is integration and automation
[09:03]	leah	it's an automated build system around coreboot, grub, seabios etc
[09:03]	matey	/me does this too, all the time
[09:03]	leah	that just packs everything together in a boringly uniform way
[09:03]	leah	with an illegally cute logo added on top
[09:04]	leah	that logo is a killer
[09:04]	leah	killer of gloom
[09:04]	matey	its a killer feature
[09:04]	leah	anyone who looks at it will feel better
[09:04]		*Noisytoot has quit (Quit: ZNC 1.8.2 - https://znc.in)
[09:04]	matey	i want it on my screen
[09:04]	matey	i mean not as a jpg
[09:04]	leah	it's a png
[09:04]	matey	it was on my screen earlier
[09:04]	matey	well if you png encoded that photo that was silly
[09:04]	matey	but i know you mean in the distribution
[09:04]		*Noisytoot (~noisytoot@sourcehut/user/noisytoot) has joined #techrights
[09:04]	leah	one moment
[09:05]	leah	https://av.osboot.org/logo/
[09:05]	TR Bot	 Index of /logo/
[09:05]	leah	here you go
[09:05]	matey	thank you
[09:05]	leah	it's there. have fun!
[09:05]	matey	night
[09:05]	leah	print it and plasticize it. and epoxy it to your car, as a bumper sticker
[09:05]	matey	ill tattoo it on my butt
[09:05]	leah	well i wouldn't go that far
[09:06]	matey	i thought about doing that with debian, im glad i didnt
[09:06]	leah	i'll make a sticker design based off it
[09:06]	matey	i wouldve gone for the shoulder though
[09:06]	leah	and take it to the printers. there's a good print shop in my town
[09:06]	leah	gonna make some cute stickers
[09:06]	matey	theres one here too
[09:06]	leah	that logo is a virus for your brin
[09:06]	leah	for your brain*
[09:06]	leah	s/brin/brain
[09:06]	leah	it gets in your brain, and never leaves
[09:06]	leah	you will remember it forever
[09:07]	matey	see it when you close your eyes
[09:07]	leah	i wanna make an ascii version
[09:07]	TR News	To Pay or Not to Pay? That is the Ransomware question | Pen Test Partners https://www.pentestpartners.com/security-blog/to-pay-or-not-to-pay-that-is-the-ransomware-question/ http://techrights.org/2021/05/02/ransomware-task-force/
[09:07]	Alternative link	Cloudflare: pentestpartners.com | Alternative: https://web.archive.org/web/https://www.pentestpartners.com/security-blog/to-pay-or-not-to-pay-that-is-the-ransomware-question/
[09:07]	TR Bot	 To Pay or Not to Pay? That is the Ransomware question | Pen Test Partners
[09:07]	TR Bot	 Microsoft-Centric Ransomware Task Force | Techrights
[09:07]	leah	osboot has text mode support
[09:07]	leah	text mode start up
[09:07]	leah	80x50 characters
[09:07]	leah	i wanna make a purple coloured text mode console
[09:07]	leah	with grey characters. with that logo
[09:07]	leah	ascii-style
[09:07]	matey	80x50 you can just use background colour
[09:07]	leah	and put it on a crt monitor
[09:08]	matey	you dont even need characters per se
[09:08]	leah	hooked up to an x200
[09:08]	leah	for meme purposes
[09:08]	leah	i'm going to do it
[09:08]	leah	you can't stop me :P
[09:08]	matey	ill try to stop you a little, just so you can fight it
[09:09]	TR News	Asahi Linux reaches 'very early Alpha' http://www.tuxmachines.org/node/162724#comment-33131
[09:09]	TR Bot	 The first Asahi Linux Alpha Release is here! | Tux Machines
[09:09]	TR News	Google #Android Leftovers Tux Machines http://www.tuxmachines.org/node/162797
[09:09]	TR Bot	 Android Leftovers | Tux Machines
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[09:11]	TR News	ICBM Red Hat is pushing Microsoft https://developers.redhat.com/articles/2022/03/21/hello-podman-using-net see http://techrights.org/2022/03/16/meme-ibm-fsf-bad-microsoft-good/
[09:11]	TR Bot	 Hello Podman using .NET | Red Hat Developer
[09:11]	TR Bot	 [Meme] IBM: FSF Bad, Microsoft Good | Techrights
[09:12]	TR News	Filipe Rosset: Fedora rawhide fixed bugs 2021/10 https://ro7bit.wordpress.com/2022/03/21/fedora-rawhide-fixed-bugs-2021-10/
[09:12]	TR Bot	 Fedora rawhide fixed bugs 2021/10 ::: ro7bit :::
[09:13]	TR News	Fedora Workstations State of Gaming - A Case Study of Control (2019) - Fedora Magazine https://fedoramagazine.org/fedora-workstations-state-of-gaming/
[09:13]	TR Bot	 Fedora Workstation's State of Gaming - A Case Study of Control (2019) - Fedora Magazine
[09:14]	TR News	ICBM keeps pushing complexity as "transformation" https://enterprisersproject.com/article/2022/3/digital-transformation-10-reasons-your-it-initiatives-fail
[09:14]	TR Bot	 Digital transformation: 10 reasons your IT initiatives fail | The Enterprisers Project
[09:14]	TR News	"Its new or newer, at least in terms of containerization, Kubernetes, infrastructure as code, security automation, robotic process automation (RPA), and the vast landscape of cloud-native tooling." BUZZWORD SALAD. https://enterprisersproject.com/article/2022/3/advance-automation-journey-tips
[09:14]	TR Bot	 Automation: 5 expert tips to advance your journey | The Enterprisers Project
[09:16]		*CrystalMath has quit (Quit: Leaving)
[09:16]	TR News	Documentation PRs Welcome - Why Docs Are Not A Beginner Friendly Task https://fy.blackhats.net.au/blog/html/2022/03/15/documentation_pr_s_welcome_why_docs_are_not_a_beginner_friendly_task.html
[09:16]	TR Bot	reports incompatible or unsupported protocol version. ( status 0 @ https://fy.blackhats.net.au/blog/html/2022/03/15/documentation_pr_s_welcome_why_docs_are_not_a_beginner_friendly_task.html )
[09:20]	TR News	"It would be foolish to say that Matthew Miller or Red Hat ordered these trolls to engage like this. On the other hand, this campaign of harassment did not arise spontaneously. Red Hat Linux is one of the oldest and most respected Linux distributions." https://danielpocock.com/red-hat-linux-harassment-war-graves/
[09:20]	TR Bot	 Red Hat, Linux, Harassment and War Graves
[09:24]	TR News	#HowTo Install Linux Kernel 5.17 on Ubuntu 21.10 Tux Machines http://www.tuxmachines.org/node/162798
[09:24]	TR Bot	 How to Install Linux Kernel 5.17 on Ubuntu 21.10 | Tux Machines
[09:25]	TR News	IBM/Red Hat/Fedora Leftovers Tux Machines http://www.tuxmachines.org/node/162799
[09:25]	TR Bot	 IBM/Red Hat/Fedora Leftovers | Tux Machines
[09:27]	TR News	How to Install Linux Kernel 5.17 on Ubuntu / Linux Mint http://www.tuxmachines.org/node/162798#comment-33132
[09:27]	TR Bot	 How to Install Linux Kernel 5.17 on Ubuntu 21.10 | Tux Machines
[09:30]	TR News	i hate dealing with proprietary software gemini://nytpu.com/gemlog/2020-11-22.gmi
[09:31]	TR News	LibrePlanet 2022: The Net beyond the web https://kelar.org/~bandali/talks/libreplanet-2022-net-beyond-web.txt gopher://kelar.org/0/~bandali/talks/libreplanet-2022-net-beyond-web.txt
[09:38]	TR News	ICBM spin for unstable release https://opensource.com/article/22/3/upstream-first-or-path-lifting-property-covering-space
[09:38]	TR Bot	first or the path lifting property of a covering space | Opensource.com
[09:38]	TR News	20+ years of Emacs Tux Machines http://www.tuxmachines.org/node/162800
[09:39]	TR Bot	 20+ years of Emacs | Tux Machines
[09:39]	TR News	"Our story this week comes from "Ivor" courtesy of his experience with punched cards and the IBM System/360 Model 40." https://www.theregister.com/2022/03/21/who_me/
[09:39]	Alternative link	Cloudflare: theregister.com | Alternative: https://web.archive.org/web/https://www.theregister.com/2022/03/21/who_me/
[09:39]	TR Bot	 Potty-mouthed System/360 fix revealed to all and sundry The Register
[09:43]	TR News	"Working for a famous tech company, I get asked a lot "Why don't you use technology X?" X may be an application, programming language, operating system, hypervisor, processor, or tool." https://www.brendangregg.com/blog/2022-03-19/why-dont-you-use.html
[09:43]	TR Bot	 Why Don't You Use ...
[09:45]	TR News	External dual-head is better and cheaper https://www.theregister.com/2022/03/21/asus_zenbook_pro_duo_ux582_review/ "The same job in an Ubuntu VM under VMware Workstation required 7:54 to finish the job"
[09:45]	Alternative link	Cloudflare: theregister.com | Alternative: https://web.archive.org/web/https://www.theregister.com/2022/03/21/asus_zenbook_pro_duo_ux582_review/
[09:45]	TR Bot	 Review: ASUS dual-screen laptop The Register
[09:45]	TR News	Gobby - a Collaborative Text Editor for Ubuntu Linux Tux Machines http://www.tuxmachines.org/node/162801
[09:45]	TR Bot	 Gobby - a Collaborative Text Editor for Ubuntu Linux | Tux Machines
[09:47]	TR News	"Indian IT services giant HCL Technologies has told India's Labour Commissioner that its controversial decision to recover bonuses paid to staff who later resigned was not illegal." https://www.theregister.com/2022/03/21/hcl_defends_bonus_clawbacks/ http://techrights.org/2009/04/10/microsoft-sails-overseas/ https://techrights.org/2008/04/13/cult-of-get-then-while-young/
[09:47]	Alternative link	Cloudflare: theregister.com | Alternative: https://web.archive.org/web/https://www.theregister.com/2022/03/21/hcl_defends_bonus_clawbacks/
[09:47]	TR Bot	 HCL responds to Indias labor office regarding bonus clawbac The Register
[09:47]	TR Bot	 Microsoft Finds Cost-Cutting Measures: Moves Overseas | Techrights
[09:47]	TR Bot	 Microsoft Reaches Out to Children and Young Adults Again | Techrights
[09:49]	TR News	2.5 weeks ago I quit Twitter; if I log in (not even posting anything), this is what I get http://techrights.org/2022/03/21/ukraine-in-twitter/
[09:49]	TR Bot	 Twitter: Were Actually a News Site, Follow These Tweets and Twits | Techrights
[09:49]	TR News	The EPO strike is now 25 hours away; workers of the EPO should prioritise solidarity over short-term safety (blind obedience) as the future of Europe (and of science in general) is at stake http://techrights.org/2022/03/21/joining-epo-strike/
[09:49]	TR Bot	 [Meme] Join the EPO Strike | Techrights
[09:50]	TR News	As we expected throughout this past week, not a single site has mentioned the EPOs strike except SUEPO and the European Federation of Public Service Unions (EPSU) and its part of a long-lasting pattern of what were calling the EPO Media Blackout http://techrights.org/2022/03/21/the-patent-distortion-part-6/
[09:50]	TR Bot	 The Patent Distortion: 7 Days of News and Blogs, Not a Single Mention of EPO Affairs | Techrights
[09:53]	schestowitz	does anyone know when fsf releases libreplanet videos?
[09:54]	schestowitz	https://framatube.org/a/fsf/videos
[09:54]	TR Bot	 Free Software Foundation - Framatube
[09:54]	schestowitz	2021
[09:55]	schestowitz	https://framatube.org/w/vxfRTW1mCXAm4yr7oK3ToS
[09:55]	TR Bot	 FS Awards Ceremony - Framatube
[09:55]	schestowitz	11 months, 13 views
[09:55]	schestowitz	a view a month for SFC
[09:55]	TR News	fscrypt updates for 5.18 https://lore.kernel.org/lkml/YjgEC8Nw9PDmdY0O@sol.localdomain/
[09:55]	TR Bot	 [GIT PULL] fscrypt updates for 5.18 - Eric Biggers
[09:58]	TR News	You can use Markdown to format your post
[09:58]	TR News	Linux 5.17 is out now with new AMD P-State driver http://www.tuxmachines.org/node/162775#comment-33134
[09:58]	TR Bot	 Linux Kernel 5.17 Officially Released, This Is Whats New | Tux Machines
[09:59]	TR News	Delete Windows. It harms your brain. https://www.theregister.com/2022/03/21/file_explorer_fiasco_column/
[09:59]	Alternative link	Cloudflare: theregister.com | Alternative: https://web.archive.org/web/https://www.theregister.com/2022/03/21/file_explorer_fiasco_column/
[09:59]	TR Bot	 File Explorer fiasco: Why did they build it then? The Register
● Mar 21
[10:03]	TR News	Todays #HowTos | #UNIX Tux Machines http://www.tuxmachines.org/node/162802
[10:03]	TR Bot	 today's howtos | Tux Machines
[10:03]	TR News	Here's the first Linux distro made for Apple M1 systems http://www.tuxmachines.org/node/162724#comment-33135
[10:03]	TR Bot	 The first Asahi Linux Alpha Release is here! | Tux Machines
[10:06]	TR News	20 Open-source, free LaTeX and TeX editors and IDEs for Windows, Linux, macOS, and the Web. Tux Machines http://www.tuxmachines.org/node/162803
[10:06]	TR Bot	 20 Open-source, free LaTeX and TeX editors and IDEs for Windows, Linux, macOS, and the Web. | Tux Machines
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[10:08]	TR News	"The Western world is debating whether permitting Putin to retain some of the territory he has seized would "be like the 1938 appeasement of Hitler by British Prime Minister Neville Chamberlain," Barrett said." https://text.npr.org/1086709135
[10:08]	TR Bot	 The war in Ukraine has reintroduced these words and phrases into our vocabulary
[10:08]	Alternative link	Cloudflare: npr.org | Alternative: https://web.archive.org/web/https://text.npr.org/1086709135
[10:08]	schestowitz	MinceR: this mentions "Putler"
[10:09]	schestowitz	where did you first see it?
[10:11]		*matey (~matey@93d8qk2xdyaxe.irc) has joined #techrights
[10:12]	TR News	Linux Mint Debian Edition 5 is out now http://www.tuxmachines.org/node/162724#comment-33137
[10:12]	TR Bot	 The first Asahi Linux Alpha Release is here! | Tux Machines
[10:15]	TR News	"how websites looked back then, fast-forwarding to the present day and the sad current state of the web, and some possibilities on where we could go from here if we would like to have a better net/web in the future for user freedom, privacy, and control." https://kelar.org/~bandali/talks/libreplanet-2022-net-beyond-web.txt
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● Mar 21
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[11:39]	TR News	EPO is Hiding 4.9 Billion and President Campinos Has Decided to Freeze the Salaries of All Staff and to Deprive at least 40% of Them of Any Career Progression | Techrights http://techrights.org/2022/03/21/plundering-epo-staff-during-high-inflation/ | Gemini address: gemini://gemini.techrights.org/2022/03/21/plundering-epo-staff-during-high-inflation/
[11:39]	TR Bot	 EPO is Hiding 4.9 Billion and President Campinos Has Decided to Freeze the Salaries of All Staff and to Deprive at least 40% of Them of Any Career Progression | Techrights
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● Mar 21
[12:01]		*SomeH4x0r (~someh4xx@7n99st3fyggac.irc) has joined #techrights
[12:01]	TR News	LibrePlanet Featuring Gemini and Geminispace for 2 Years in a Row | Techrights http://techrights.org/2022/03/21/bandali-geminispace-and-gopher/ | Gemini address: gemini://gemini.techrights.org/2022/03/21/bandali-geminispace-and-gopher/
[12:02]	TR Bot	 LibrePlanet Featuring Gemini and Geminispace for 2 Years in a Row | Techrights
[12:02]		*matey (~matey@5adyqrxsr3hiq.irc) has joined #techrights
[12:02]	matey	https://www.fsf.org/blogs/community/libreplanet-living-liberation-day-two-retrospective-and-motivation-for-freedom "RMS's address will be entitled "The State of the Free Software Movement," and will be held by the FSF on April 13 at 14:00 EDT (18:00 UTC)."
[12:02]	TR Bot	 LibrePlanet: "Living Liberation" Day two retrospective, and motivation for freedom Free Software Foundation Working together for free software
[12:03]	schestowitz-TR	good sign
[12:03]	matey	i am braced for disappointment, but even with low expectations i will be watching for more information
[12:03]	schestowitz-TR	maybe to dispell rumours they gag him
[12:03]	matey	i believe its stockholm syndrome
[12:04]	matey	leah is right about the relevance of free software. it is threatened. though for the very same reason that free hardware has to have its own movement-- free software will need to be supported (most likely by its own movement) too
[12:04]	matey	free software does a terrible job of representing free hardware. it doesnt have to, but it does.
[12:05]	matey	free hardware could be full of people that actually say "it doesnt matter if your software is free as long as you control the hardware" which i do not agree with
[12:05]	matey	its really not an implausible scenario at all
[12:05]	matey	though im sure that wont be the official position of free hardware
[12:06]	matey	also free hardware is going to take years to have the same level of clout or awareness, because how many people will actually have a homemade cpu in 5 years
[12:07]	activelow	CPU, Networking, Peripheral I/O
[12:07]	matey	it will be interesting to see what rms says about the state of free software
[12:07]	matey	after all, he created the thing
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[12:12]	IPFS	IPFS downstream 60 minutes average 37.65 k/sec., IPFS upstream 23.73 average k/sec., average swarm size 279.89
[12:22]	TR News	http://techrights.org/2022/03/21/putin-loves-windows/
[12:22]	TR Bot	 Putins Russia Loves It When Its Enemies Use Microsoft Windows | Techrights
[12:23]	TR News	Putins Russia Loves It When Its Enemies Use Microsoft Windows | Techrights http://techrights.org/2022/03/21/putin-loves-windows/ | Gemini address: gemini://gemini.techrights.org/2022/03/21/putin-loves-windows/
[12:49]	TR News	[Meme] EPO Even Attacks Its Pensioners | Techrights http://techrights.org/2022/03/21/campinos-vs-pensioners/ | Gemini address: gemini://gemini.techrights.org/2022/03/21/campinos-vs-pensioners/
[12:49]	TR Bot	 [Meme] EPO Even Attacks Its Pensioners | Techrights
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● Mar 21
[13:04]		*u-amarsh04 (~amarsh04@hngiv8sdpiaf2.irc) has joined #techrights
[13:06]	TR News	Social Control Media Double Standards: Killing is OK (If Its Profitable to the Platform Owner) | Techrights http://techrights.org/2022/03/21/gafam-double-standards/ | Gemini address: gemini://gemini.techrights.org/2022/03/21/gafam-double-standards/
[13:06]	TR Bot	 Social Control Media Double Standards: Killing is OK (If Its Profitable to the Platform Owner) | Techrights
[13:26]	TR News	[Meme] American Clown Computing in Action: Russia Doesnt Need to Bomb Cell Towers in Mariupol When Gulag (Google) Disconnects Citizens of Mariupol | Techrights http://techrights.org/2022/03/21/clown-computing-reality/ | Gemini address: gemini://gemini.techrights.org/2022/03/21/clown-computing-reality/
[13:26]	TR Bot	 [Meme] American Clown Computing in Action: Russia Doesnt Need to Bomb Cell Towers in Mariupol When Gulag (Google) Disconnects Citizens of Mariupol | Techrights
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[13:34]	schestowitz	RMS and LXO https://media.libreplanet.org/u/libreplanet/m/libreplanet-2016-fork-the
[13:34]	TR Bot	( status 308 @ https://media.libreplanet.org/u/libreplanet/m/libreplanet-2016-fork-the )
[13:36]	schestowitz	https://media.libreplanet.org/u/libreplanet/m/decentralizing-the-internet-with-freedombox/
[13:36]	TR Bot	 Decentralizing the Internet with FreedomBox GNU MediaGoblin
[13:37]	schestowitz	https://media.libreplanet.org/u/libreplanet/m/fsf-at-30/
[13:37]	TR Bot	 FSF at 30: history of free software GNU MediaGoblin
[13:37]	schestowitz	CC
[13:39]	schestowitz	https://media.libreplanet.org/u/libreplanet/m/the-singularity-the-matrix-and-the-terminator-86e0/
[13:39]	TR Bot	 The Singularity, the Matrix, and the Terminator GNU MediaGoblin
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[13:55]	TR News	Today in #Techrights Tux Machines http://www.tuxmachines.org/node/162804
[13:55]	TR Bot	 Today in Techrights | Tux Machines
[13:57]	TR News	Microbel shilling Microsoft and his sponsor, AMD https://www.phoronix.com/scan.php?page=article&item=amd-milanx-hbv3&num=1 that's why I cannot accept Phoronix anymore http://techrights.org/2021/04/20/phoronix-and-microsoft/
[13:57]	Alternative link	Cloudflare: phoronix.com | Alternative: https://web.archive.org/web/https://www.phoronix.com/scan.php?page=article&item=amd-milanx-hbv3&num=1
[13:57]	TR Bot	Milan-X Upgrade In The Cloud Makes Microsoft Azure HBv3 Very Compelling For HPC Review - Phoronix
[13:57]	TR Bot	 Phoronix Needs to Exercise Caution and Stay Vigilant/Careful of Microsoft | Techrights
[13:57]	TR News	When Blogs Become Marketing and Benchmarks Become Product Promotions Techrights http://techrights.org/2022/02/03/phoronix-went-too-far/ | Gemini address: gemini://gemini.techrights.org/2022/02/03/phoronix-went-too-far/
[13:57]	TR Bot	 When Blogs Become Marketing and Benchmarks Become Product Promotions | Techrights
● Mar 21
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[14:02]	TR News	Richard Stallman on Why Sites With Clownflare (Cloudflare) Harm Freedom and Human Rights | Techrights http://techrights.org/2022/03/21/rms-vs-clownflare/ | Gemini address: gemini://gemini.techrights.org/2022/03/21/rms-vs-clownflare/
[14:02]	TR Bot	 Richard Stallman on Why Sites With Clownflare (Cloudflare) Harm Freedom and Human Rights | Techrights
[14:05]	TR News	The worst things about iPad OS gemini://idiomdrottning.org/ios
[14:07]	TR News	DDoS in techrights. Weird. Same page requested 6,000+ times in less than a minute.
[14:08]		*psymin (~psymin@me3biw7mdts84.irc) has joined #techrights
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[14:09]	TR News	A Musical Story is a very unique rhythm game with plenty of soul | GamingOnLinux https://www.gamingonlinux.com/2022/03/a-musical-story-is-a-very-unique-rhythm-game-with-plenty-of-soul
[14:09]	Alternative link	Cloudflare: gamingonlinux.com | Alternative: https://web.archive.org/web/https://www.gamingonlinux.com/2022/03/a-musical-story-is-a-very-unique-rhythm-game-with-plenty-of-soul
[14:09]	TR Bot	Musical Story is a very unique rhythm game with plenty of soul | GamingOnLinux
[14:10]	TR News	Phoronix's Microbel: I take money from companies other than Microsoft (which I take gifts from) but since they're Microsoft partners I end up shilling Microsoft
[14:11]	TR News	"Oh good, another fantastic looking pixel-art life sim to suck away my time. Kynseed from PixelCount Studios has a Beta available on Steam for better Steam Deck support" https://www.gamingonlinux.com/2022/03/sandbox-life-sim-rpg-kynseed-gets-a-beta-for-improved-steam-deck-support/
[14:11]	Alternative link	Cloudflare: gamingonlinux.com | Alternative: https://web.archive.org/web/https://www.gamingonlinux.com/2022/03/sandbox-life-sim-rpg-kynseed-gets-a-beta-for-improved-steam-deck-support/
[14:11]	TR Bot	life sim RPG 'Kynseed' gets a Beta for improved Steam Deck support | GamingOnLinux
[14:12]	TR News	"There's a new Ubuntu logo and I think it looks awful. AMD FSR 2.0 is announced! Plus, a major kernel exploits affects all Linux devices--including ANDROID!" https://yewtu.be/watch?v=9C6YAtVB-1I
[14:12]	TR Bot	 Reacting to Ubuntu's new logo, major kernel exploits, and other Linux news. - Invidious
[14:13]	TR News	"Want to play Phasmophobia on a Linux desktop or Steam Deck? Well, it still doesn't yet work fully as the voice recognition isn't there but support for it is coming thanks to the Wine team." https://www.gamingonlinux.com/2022/03/wine-and-proton-have-a-curious-case-of-phasmophobia/
[14:13]	Alternative link	Cloudflare: gamingonlinux.com | Alternative: https://web.archive.org/web/https://www.gamingonlinux.com/2022/03/wine-and-proton-have-a-curious-case-of-phasmophobia/
[14:13]	TR Bot	and Proton have a 'Curious Case of Phasmophobia' | GamingOnLinux
[14:14]	TR News	"Developer Ariel Jurkowski emailed in about their upcoming game Please Fix The Road, a puzzle game all about fixing up the roads and it really does look quite wonderful. The developer also confirmed full Linux support at release." https://www.gamingonlinux.com/2022/03/please-fix-the-road-is-a-gorgeous-upcoming-puzzle-game
[14:14]	Alternative link	Cloudflare: gamingonlinux.com | Alternative: https://web.archive.org/web/https://www.gamingonlinux.com/2022/03/please-fix-the-road-is-a-gorgeous-upcoming-puzzle-game
[14:14]	TR Bot	Fix The Road is a gorgeous upcoming puzzle game | GamingOnLinux
[14:16]	TR News	The EPOs Benot Battistelli and Antnio Campinos have both crushed staff such as patent examiners, putting them on time-limited contracts with decreasing salaries while compelling them to grant lots of bogus European Patents, including software patents; no wonder the staff goes on strike! http://techrights.org/2022/03/21/plundering-epo-staff-during-high-inflation/
[14:16]	TR Bot	 EPO is Hiding 4.9 Billion and President Campinos Has Decided to Freeze the Salaries of All Staff and to Deprive at least 40% of Them of Any Career Progression | Techrights
[14:16]	TR News	The GNU maintainer of Jami, GNUzilla and IceCat says there are some possibilities on where we could go from here if we would like to have a better net/web in the future for user freedom, privacy, and control. http://techrights.org/2022/03/21/bandali-geminispace-and-gopher/
[14:16]	TR Bot	 LibrePlanet Featuring Gemini and Geminispace for 2 Years in a Row | Techrights
[14:17]	TR News	Putins Russia is taking advantage of Microsofts products being unsafe by design http://techrights.org/2022/03/21/putin-loves-windows/
[14:17]	TR Bot	 Putins Russia Loves It When Its Enemies Use Microsoft Windows | Techrights
[14:17]	TR News	EPO workers who go on strike tomorrow are also helping those who cannot go on strike (but are similarly suffering from Antnio Campinos) http://techrights.org/2022/03/21/campinos-vs-pensioners/
[14:17]	TR Bot	 [Meme] EPO Even Attacks Its Pensioners | Techrights
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[14:17]	TR News	Now that Twitter profits from conflict, Facebook allows people to call for deaths of people, and Google (Gulag) profits from assassination based on algorithms (Hey Hi) we need to highlight the extraordinary degree of hypocrisy http://techrights.org/2022/03/21/gafam-double-standards/
[14:17]	TR Bot	 Social Control Media Double Standards: Killing is OK (If Its Profitable to the Platform Owner) | Techrights
[14:18]	TR News	The real risks associated with Clown Computing are becoming ever more apparent; years ago in Venezuela and now in Russia or Ukraine (Gulag cannot even distinguish!); these are the sorts of companies that have taken over Open Source and are basically normalising crimes against humanity http://techrights.org/2022/03/21/clown-computing-reality/
[14:18]	TR Bot	 [Meme] American Clown Computing in Action: Russia Doesnt Need to Bomb Cell Towers in Mariupol When Gulag (Google) Disconnects Citizens of Mariupol | Techrights
[14:18]		*batalie (~natalie@2pnuqzgrdxesq.irc) has joined #techrights
[14:18]	TR News	Richard M. Stallman (RMS) spoke on the matter half a decade ago (he covered many other issues) http://techrights.org/2022/03/21/rms-vs-clownflare/
[14:18]	TR News	Games: A Musical Story, Please Fix The Road, Kynseed, and Phasmophobia Tux Machines http://www.tuxmachines.org/node/162805
[14:18]	TR Bot	 Games: A Musical Story, Please Fix The Road, Kynseed, and Phasmophobia | Tux Machines
[14:23]		*Disconnected (Connection reset by peer).
[14:23]		*Now talking on #techrights
[14:23]		*Topic for #techrights is: Techrights.org IRC discussions @ Freenode | Channel #techrights for http://techrights.org [logged online] :: please also join channels #boycottnovell-social #techbytes and #boycottnovell for related discussions. Official channels are at irc.techrights.org | For scrollback see http://techrights.org/irc-channel/
[14:23]		*Topic for #techrights set by schestowitz!~schestowi@freenode-18vdut.5mai.fl0c.t29qgt.IP at Thu Jan 1 01:00:00 1970
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[14:26]	batalie	speaking of rms, fsf announced an rms talk for april 13
[14:27]	batalie	don't remember the time
[14:27]	batalie	end of lp
[14:31]	schestowitz-TR	yup:
[14:32]	schestowitz-TR	[12:02] <matey> https://www.fsf.org/blogs/community/libreplanet-living-liberation-day-two-retrospective-and-motivation-for-freedom "RMS's address will be entitled "The State of the Free Software Movement," and will be held by the FSF on April 13 at 14:00 EDT (18:00 UTC)."
[14:32]	TR Bot	 LibrePlanet: "Living Liberation" Day two retrospective, and motivation for freedom Free Software Foundation Working together for free software
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[14:33]	schestowitz-TR	ciphrCat: 
[14:33]	schestowitz-TR	http://techrights.org/2022/03/21/rms-vs-clownflare/
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[14:58]	TR News	Linux 5.17 arrives: Here's what's inside http://www.tuxmachines.org/node/162775#comment-33138
[14:58]	TR Bot	 Linux Kernel 5.17 Officially Released, This Is Whats New | Tux Machines
● Mar 21
[15:01]	AdmFubar	https://www.bleepingcomputer.com/news/security/microsoft-investigating-claims-of-hacked-source-code-repositories/
[15:01]	Alternative link	Cloudflare: bleepingcomputer.com | Alternative: https://web.archive.org/web/https://www.bleepingcomputer.com/news/security/microsoft-investigating-claims-of-hacked-source-code-repositories/
[15:01]	TR Bot	 Microsoft investigating claims of hacked source code repositories
[15:03]	MinceR	21 110913 <~schestowitz> where did you first see it?
[15:03]	MinceR	probably on wikipedia
[15:03]	MinceR	https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Putler
[15:03]	TR Bot	 Putler - Wikipedia
[15:04]	TR News	Linux Mint Debian Edition 5 is now available http://www.tuxmachines.org/node/162666#comment-33139
[15:04]	TR Bot	 LMDE (Linux Mint Debian Edition) 5 Elsie Is Now Available for Download | Tux Machines
[15:05]	schestowitz-TR	AdmFubar: Microsoft is the largest malware distributor
[15:05]	schestowitz-TR	but it's also market leader in bribing the media
[15:06]	schestowitz-TR	so the media always blames the recipients of the malware
[15:06]	MinceR	schestowitz-TR: it's linked from https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Putin_khuylo! , which is probably how i found it
[15:06]	TR Bot	 Putin khuylo! - Wikipedia
[15:31]	TR News	Links 21/3/2022: Lots About Kernel, RMS Talk Scheduled for April and | Techrights http://techrights.org/2022/03/21/rms-talk-april/ | Gemini address: gemini://gemini.techrights.org/2022/03/21/rms-talk-april/
[15:31]	TR Bot	 Links 21/3/2022: Lots About Kernel, RMS Talk Scheduled for April and | Techrights
[15:32]	TR News	Proprietary Software and Security Leftovers Tux Machines http://www.tuxmachines.org/node/162806
[15:32]	TR Bot	 Proprietary Software and Security Leftovers | Tux Machines
[15:32]	TR News	Todays Leftovers Tux Machines http://www.tuxmachines.org/node/162807
[15:32]	TR Bot	 today's leftovers | Tux Machines
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[15:41]	techrights_guest|56	Hello, I just watched the video on pulling in the feed through command line. I was able to pull it in however it does not refresh unless i repaste, which is fine, i was just wondering if the command line can refresh or if it is manual refresh.
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[15:47]	techrights_guest|56	i will check back later.
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[15:53]	MinceR	https://hugelolcdn.com/i/817639.jpg
[15:53]	Alternative link	Cloudflare: hugelolcdn.com | Alternative: https://web.archive.org/web/https://hugelolcdn.com/i/817639.jpg
● Mar 21
[16:05]	TR News	Sites That Care About GNU/Linux and Users of Free Software Dont Help Sell Microsoft | Techrights http://techrights.org/2022/03/21/selling-microsoft/ | Gemini address: gemini://gemini.techrights.org/2022/03/21/selling-microsoft/
[16:05]	TR Bot	 Sites That Care About GNU/Linux and Users of Free Software Dont Help Sell Microsoft | Techrights
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[16:35]	TR News	EPO Management Seems to be Resorting to Illegal Union-Busting Tactics, Suppression/Deterrence by List-Making | Techrights http://techrights.org/2022/03/21/strike-busting-antonio-campinos/ | Gemini address: gemini://gemini.techrights.org/2022/03/21/strike-busting-antonio-campinos/
[16:35]	TR Bot	 EPO Management Seems to be Resorting to Illegal Union-Busting Tactics, Suppression/Deterrence by List-Making | Techrights
[16:50]	MinceR	(cat) https://ircz.de/p/22032121
[16:50]	TR Bot	 IRCZ makes your life worth living https://0x0.st/oNpb.jpg created on 2022-03-21 05:37:50.773078
● Mar 21
[17:03]		*DaemonFC (~daemonfc@pta4pav9xjc9u.irc) has joined #techrights
[17:13]	Ariadne	12:17 PM <XRevan86> Ariadne: Regarding apko, what is the software to run containers that Alpine has in mind? Still podman/Docker?
[17:14]	Ariadne	whatever you want to use, in kubernetes-land we prefer CRI-o
[17:17]		*matey (~matey@9bsrk9cwiznhk.irc) has joined #techrights
[17:17]	matey	"Sites That Care About GNU/Linux and Users of Free Software Dont Help Sell Microsoft"
[17:18]	matey	while rms is talking about the state of free software, perhaps he can name a gnu/linux website that doesnt help sell microsoft
[17:18]	matey	good luck to him
[17:18]	Ariadne	what does this even mean
[17:19]	Ariadne	is he talking about like, phoronix?
[17:19]	matey	rms is giving a talk on the "state of free software" in april
[17:19]	matey	lets see
[17:19]	matey	actually it mentions phoronix 
[17:20]	matey	and cnx
[17:20]	matey	"No doubt Phoronix is not the biggest problem out there, but it is becoming more problematic over time. It may seem innocent to Michael, but even if hes shilling Microsoft for his sponsor, AMD, that hurts all of us."
[17:21]	Ariadne	i'll admit it is a bit off-putting to hear about WSL on Phoronix
[17:21]	matey	i dont share roys affinity for microbel anyway
[17:22]	matey	so while the story about the "crate of amds" which i presume to be true IS interesting, it isnt as much of a surprise to me
[17:22]	XRevan86	Ariadne: thanks
[17:22]	matey	i wont say i was expecting it
[17:23]	matey	"Free software cannot win if proponents of Software Freedom get brainwashed by Microsoft and outsource systems to Microsoft."
[17:24]	matey	that paints an uncharacteristically bleak picture :) did mincer write it?
[17:26]	MinceR	no
[17:26]	Ariadne	https://linuxfoundation.org/blog/statement-against-texas-discrimination/
[17:26]	Alternative link	Cloudflare: linuxfoundation.org | Alternative: https://web.archive.org/web/https://linuxfoundation.org/blog/statement-against-texas-discrimination/
[17:26]	TR Bot	 STATEMENT AGAINST TEXAS DISCRIMINATION - Linux Foundation
[17:26]	matey	no, i was joking because youre the most pessimistic person here
[17:26]	Ariadne	i mean, they could just
[17:26]	Ariadne	move their events
[17:26]	Ariadne	out of texas
[17:27]	matey	and a lot of your pessimism i agree with (maybe not to exactly the same degree)
[17:27]	matey	if it were not for your pessimism this place would be even sillier
[17:28]	Ariadne	i don't really get LF
[17:28]	Ariadne	lol
[17:28]	matey	i mean, they could just  move their events  out of texas <- hehe
[17:28]	matey	sell their crates of amds to aquaman
[17:29]	matey	/me figures we are talking about lf now and didnt know they did events in texas
[17:29]	DaemonFC	https://www.reuters.com/technology/china-requires-microsofts-bing-suspend-auto-suggest-feature-2022-03-21/
[17:29]	TR Bot	requires Microsoft's Bing to suspend auto-suggest feature | Reuters
[17:29]	DaemonFC	Microsoft censoring even more in China.
[17:30]	DaemonFC	"Microsoft Corp's (MSFT.O) Bing, the only major foreign search engine available in China"
[17:30]	DaemonFC	Because they're the only company that worked with the Communist Party to suppress their citizens instead of pulling out of the country.
[17:31]	DaemonFC	Google used to run the Chinese version in Hong Kong and then left.
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[17:32]	DaemonFC	https://www.reuters.com/technology/meta-asks-russian-court-dismiss-proceedings-extremism-case-reports-2022-03-21/
[17:32]	TR Bot	finds Meta guilty of 'extremist activity', says WhatsApp can stay | Reuters
[17:32]	DaemonFC	Why can WhatsApp stay if it really does have E2E encryption that isn't backdoored?
[17:34]		*matey (~matey@tb3bujhpbsxqn.irc) has joined #techrights
[17:37]	activelow	matey: responding to "free hardware", to begin with, hardware design requires software
[17:37]	matey	activelow: im very familiar with your research
[17:37]	activelow	that's why, i am not too impressed, if some free/open hardware is deployed to Altera(Intel) or Xilinx(AMD) with their tooling
[17:38]	matey	however, lea.h made points yesterday that actually bring a bit of hope to escaping the cycle of dependency you (perhaps correctly) point out
[17:38]	matey	if some free/open hardware is deployed to Altera(Intel) or Xilinx(AMD) with their tooling <- i agree
[17:38]	matey	however, if its possible to escape both at once, there is hope
[17:39]	matey	you talk about nasa and old intel chips
[17:39]	matey	what your research shows, if anything, is that the cycle of dependency may not be able to break with the existing brands
[17:39]	matey	able to be broken ^
[17:40]	matey	and it would help IMMENSELY if you could publish it in more detail, but i realise theres nothing in it for you, its not like youre getting paid for this
[17:40]	DaemonFC	MakeUseOf mentioned an article of "Netflix problems", so I posted this:
[17:40]	DaemonFC	It started with them willing to sell it below cost to gain a subscriber base.
[17:40]	DaemonFC	Then Comcast complained that it was using too much bandwidth and Comcast corrupted the stream to ruin Netflix, unless they paid Comcast a bribe, which they did.
[17:40]	DaemonFC	Then other ISPs followed. No federal or state charges against Comcast even though they falsely advertised a speed package and upcharged their customers who wanted better speed, _and_ are engaging in a protection racket against Netflix which all Netflix customers pay for even if their ISP is not Comcast. Because Murrica.
[17:40]	DaemonFC	Then Netflix decided that they were done losing money and started raising the prices every year. Now any tier costs about double what it did five years ago except SD on one screen, which went up about 30%.
[17:40]	DaemonFC	But it turns out that even when you pay extra for more "screens", they still don't allow it if they think someone who doesn't live with you is watching it, so they want even more money.
[17:40]	DaemonFC	All while canceling anything even sort of worth watching and filling up their app with Redbox-style B movie garbage.
[17:40]	DaemonFC	This is going to backfire on them, big time.
[17:41]	DaemonFC	schestowitz-TR, I've considered filing a lawsuit against the city in small claims court.
[17:41]	DaemonFC	Seeking damages of what I had to pay my attorney to beat that traffic ticket.
[17:42]	DaemonFC	Since it was dismissed for lack of evidence, I could try using that as proof that they damaged me without any basis for doing so.
[17:42]	matey	if it were not for the things lea.h is excited about, we might be more free-as-in-freedom with zilog chips like you said
[17:43]	matey	which might not be terribly practical but it was certainly interesting
[17:44]	matey	i didnt actually miss the 8 bit era but im afraid i got a semi-16 bit machine too soon
[17:44]	activelow	8bit data-bus
[17:44]	matey	miss ^ i didnt actually, i mean i had an 8 bit machine first, i wish id made use of it for longer than i did
[17:45]	matey	<activelow> 8bit data-bus <- was making a parody of a 16 bit machine with an 8 bit data bus yesterday
[17:45]	matey	i was making up a story about a machine with a digital cpu and an analogue bus (the bottlenect was the adc and the dac) but this was made up as a joke, no one called me on it (its ok if they ignored it)
[17:46]	matey	however it was said in parody of a machine i actually owned
[17:47]	matey	i had a timex sinclair once
[17:47]	matey	loaded programs on audiocassette
[17:48]	matey	but i was 4. didnt get into programming until i was at least partly on 16-bit hardware
[17:49]	matey	if i had been a little older i might have coded with an 8 bit machine, and the cool thing about 8 bit that i missed was
[17:49]	matey	8 bit makes it so trivial to get lower level
[17:50]	matey	and since the machine is so limited the rewards for making that (relatively) trivial effort are larger
[17:50]	matey	weve lost out a little with every advance since then, at least in terms of education
[17:50]	matey	it probably balances out at some point, but still
[17:57]	activelow	they're pulling the strings from Silicon Valley/RAND Corp and Pentagon anyway
[17:57]	matey	theres no doubt of it
[17:57]	activelow	still looking for some untapped VT100 terminal with PS/2 and VGA which wasn't tampered with by them
[17:58]	matey	you know really activelow, if they want you badly enough they can use radio to commandeer some hardware operations
[17:58]	matey	unless youre going to do your research in a faraday cage
[17:58]	TR News	We are unfortunately seeing sites that focus on Linux falling into the hands of Microsoft with its marketing operations; if we cannot understand or cannot agree that such software should be rejected, thats a very big problem http://techrights.org/2022/03/21/selling-microsoft/
[17:58]	TR Bot	 Sites That Care About GNU/Linux and Users of Free Software Dont Help Sell Microsoft | Techrights
[17:58]	matey	though to be fair, that may presume you have an ethernet port
[17:59]	matey	i dont know if it applies to a breadboard and a cpu (or how it possibly would)
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● Mar 21
[18:01]	IPFS	IPFS downstream 60 minutes average 24.83 k/sec., IPFS upstream 16.95 average k/sec., average swarm size 279.94
[18:01]	TR News	The EPO Mafia (this what staff calls the management) seems to be doing what every rogue employer tends to do when staff organises and takes action; the staff union says that the Mafia has meanwhile published that staff must register in the EPO Strike tool." http://techrights.org/2022/03/21/strike-busting-antonio-campinos/
[18:01]	TR Bot	 EPO Management Seems to be Resorting to Illegal Union-Busting Tactics, Suppression/Deterrence by List-Making | Techrights
[18:01]	activelow	currently cleaning up and finalizing the no-c++ linux firmware; then TinyCC which i hope for can fully replace GCC, before i fully depart, from GNU/Linux
[18:02]	matey	before i fully depart, from GNU/Linux <- are you going to write your own kernel?
[18:02]	activelow	i'll keep that archived, for historical reasons, since i doubt i can keep up with the higher intellect of C11 and Kernel any later than v5.10
[18:03]	DaemonFC	I was talking about Hollywood the other day.
[18:03]	DaemonFC	mjg59_ was talking about how trans people face discrimination.
[18:03]	activelow	i probably could hack some kernel stuff, yes. nonetheless it's a waste of time mostly, because hardware.
[18:03]	matey	of course
[18:04]	DaemonFC	But the media doesn't show anyone with a realistic body type.
[18:04]	DaemonFC	In the US, over half the population is overweight and you hardly ever see one on a movie.
[18:04]	DaemonFC	Or in a TV show.
[18:04]	activelow	see GNU/Hurd... aiming for Intel x86/x86_64...; and i am not as skilled as the hackers involved with GNU/Hurd
[18:04]	matey	it makes sense then, for you to follow what leah is doing, since it might enable you to move past zilog
[18:04]	DaemonFC	It's the last acceptable discrimination out there, I think, is body type.
[18:04]	activelow	matey: what is she is doing?
[18:05]	DaemonFC	From what you're shown on TV to the clothes you're allowed to buy in the "normal" store.
[18:05]	matey	organising a free hardware movement
[18:05]	matey	but not only the sort of free hardware you are sceptical of
[18:05]	matey	i mean actual free hardware, like the kind you can make at home
[18:06]	matey	like a homemade cpu, lithography and everything
[18:06]	matey	really free hardware
[18:06]	matey	free design, download and produce
[18:06]	matey	not just fpga
[18:07]	matey	not "3d printed" because of resolution of course, but that level of control over production
[18:07]	activelow	interesting. btw. in WhiteRussia an alternative production line for TTL 7400 series parts exists. maybe they haven't forgotten everything there, how to do it.
[18:08]	DaemonFC	It's perfectly okay to pick on some people for factors beyond their control I suppose.
[18:08]	matey	it seems unlikely that an entire industry would forget its own industry
[18:08]	DaemonFC	Fat-shaming is really another way of poor shaming.
[18:09]	matey	though the idea that they could abstract themselves to a point of no return seems less implausible
[18:09]	DaemonFC	Being fat used to mean you were rich. Only people who were rich could afford enough food to be fat, and food that tasted good enough to want to eat enough to be fat.
[18:09]	DaemonFC	Today, it's flipped.
[18:09]	matey	certain companies could become dependent on things they dont control and, oops
[18:09]	DaemonFC	The rich spend more to get access to healthy food. They live forever. They don't have as many problems with their weight.
[18:10]	DaemonFC	Poor people are fed junk that's one notch up from animal feed.
[18:10]	matey	the thing is, you really dont factor in the very things that could unpaint your bleak picture
[18:10]	DaemonFC	Seasonings cost money, so the one used in bulk, everywhere, is salt.
[18:10]	DaemonFC	Which is REALLY NOT GOOD FOR YOU.
[18:10]	matey	its still interesting research and it shows mistakes that were made along the way
[18:11]	DaemonFC	https://www.reddit.com/r/LateStageCapitalism/comments/tj90r6/theyre_all_using_the_same_playbook/
[18:11]	TR Bot	 they're all using the same playbook : LateStageCapitalism
[18:12]	activelow	apropos, WhiteRussia/Ukraine: https://www.reuters.com/world/europe/ukraine-state-nuclear-company-unable-monitor-radiation-levels-around-chernobyl-2022-03-21/
[18:12]	TR Bot	state nuclear company unable to monitor radiation levels around Chernobyl | Reuters
[18:12]	DaemonFC	I was talking to mjg59_ some more last night about apps and slavery.
[18:12]	matey	im not familiar with the term "white russia" except regarding mixed drinks
[18:12]	DaemonFC	They've created a new kind of worker that's below even a person making minimum wage.
[18:12]	DaemonFC	Apps are a way to violate wage and hour laws and make it legal.
[18:12]	DaemonFC	People shouldn't use them.
[18:13]	activelow	white-russia is the neighboring country of the Russian Federation and Ukraine; they changed their name to express distinction from the federation
[18:13]	DaemonFC	Illinois hasn't done anything to help "gig workers". California has done some small things, but stopped well short of giving them at least the same rights as a minimum wage employee.
[18:13]	matey	they changed their name to express distinction from the federation <- i cant say i blame them
[18:13]	activelow	i do
[18:13]	DaemonFC	In fact, about all Illinois has done with Uber and the rest is tax them.
[18:13]	matey	i dont know why
[18:13]	DaemonFC	Because it taxes the shit out of everything.
[18:14]	activelow	they speak Russian or a dialect thereof, they share common history, including the operation of Chernobyl
[18:14]	activelow	and Weissrussland is the name i learned in school, and keep it at this
[18:15]	activelow	White, because of the winter seasons there. that's why. no other political nuance.
[18:15]	matey	i didnt assume it was some racist trope
[18:16]	matey	i dont figure the drink name is intended that way either
[18:16]	matey	they would have renamed it by now :)
[18:16]	XRevan86	PSA: Don't take activelow's claims seriously.
[18:16]	matey	XRevan86: its difficult to verify unpublished research
[18:16]	matey	as for his politics... well... you know
[18:16]	XRevan86	matey: It's easy to verify that his linguistic research is full of shit.
[18:16]	DaemonFC	XRevan86, He liked the 49% East German Coffee Mix that ruined coffee makers.
[18:16]	XRevan86	I can vet this part of his claims with my brain off.
[18:17]	DaemonFC	He sees it as the pinnacle of Communist central planning achievement.
[18:17]	XRevan86	"White, because of the winter seasons there." <- So full of shit.
[18:17]	matey	XRevan86: when i said its difficult to verify... so is a lot of... 
[18:17]	DaemonFC	When you can't even get coffee, just dilute it with something that clogs the machine and ruins it.
[18:17]	matey	im being diplomatic. though my interest is not insincere
[18:18]	DaemonFC	That way the public has to give up on coffee because they'd have to go to the black market for both.
[18:18]	matey	i am intrigued one way or another
[18:18]	DaemonFC	MinceR, ^
[18:18]	XRevan86	https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/5/52/%D0%A1%D0%BB%D0%BE%D0%B2%D0%B0%D1%80%D1%8C_1596_%D0%B3._%D0%9B%D0%B0%D0%B2%D1%80%D1%8B%D0%BD%D0%B0_%D0%97%D1%8B%D0%B7%D0%B0%D0%BD%D0%B8%D1%8F_%D0%A2%D1%83%D1%81%D1%82%D0%B0%D0%BD%D0%BE%D0%B2%D1%81%D0%BA%D0%BE%D0%B3%D0%BE.jpg
[18:18]	Alternative link	Cloudflare: wikimedia.org | Alternative: https://web.archive.org/web/https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/5/52/%D0%A1%D0%BB%D0%BE%D0%B2%D0%B0%D1%80%D1%8C_1596_%D0%B3._%D0%9B%D0%B0%D0%B2%D1%80%D1%8B%D0%BD%D0%B0_%D0%97%D1%8B%D0%B7%D0%B0%D0%BD%D0%B8%D1%8F_%D0%A2%D1%83%D1%81%D1%82%D0%B0%D0%BD%D0%BE%D0%B2%D1%81%D0%BA%D0%BE%D0%B3%D0%BE.jpg
[18:18]	matey	if its a troll is a truly epic one
[18:18]	XRevan86	activelow: ^ check this out
[18:18]	XRevan86	XVI century mini-dictionary (Church Slavonic <-> "Ukrainian")
[18:18]	XRevan86	It actually uses the word "Ukrainian".
[18:19]	XRevan86	Ah, no, I confused myself, never mind.
[18:19]	XRevan86	Should put my brain on on now.
[18:19]	DaemonFC	If Communism is so great, why does every Communist country have a black market, and why are the black markets shopped by nearly anyone who can afford it, and why do the black markets have daily living essentials and not just bourgeoisie creature comforts?
[18:20]	DaemonFC	People have to shop it for coffee, beans, rice, and flour. Not exactly Playstations and iPhones.
[18:20]	XRevan86	Anyway, the word is kind of old, but not that old, it was very stupid what I did there.
[18:20]	matey	the main thing ive gotten from activelow is that c++ is needed to bootstrap gcc
[18:21]	DaemonFC	But in many Communist countries, people cannot afford the black market prices because by causing the black market in the first place, the government has mandated high prices and supply chain inefficiencies to make it worth the risk of being caught and having your stuff seized and ran over by trucks.
[18:21]	TR News	COVID-19 in the United Kingdom: Almost a Quarter Million Confirmed Infections Reported Today (Worse Since First Week of January)http://schestowitz.com/Weblog/archives/2022/03/21/records-confirmed-today/
[18:21]	TR Bot	Blog Archive COVID-19 in the United Kingdom: Almost a Quarter Million Confirmed Infections Reported Today (Worse Since First Week of January)
[18:21]	MinceR	stalinists built memorials to how horrible the countries they managed were to live in
[18:21]	matey	and that we might be more free with zilog, which is an argument that i truly enjoy, not only as a joke 
[18:21]	MinceR	like the Berlin Wall
[18:21]	XRevan86	"but not that old" <- Though it kind of is actually.
[18:21]	MinceR	their slaves tried to escape from the system we're supposed to believe was so great, so they built walls to prevent the slaves from escaping
[18:22]	DaemonFC	MinceR, The Berlin Wall was just meant to slow you down. It's hard to shoot thousands of people in the back and get them all while they try to escape if you don't slow them down.
[18:22]	MinceR	which shows that not even the stalinists thought of stalinism as an attractive proposition for the masses
[18:22]	MinceR	DaemonFC: well, walls rarely work if they aren't guarded
[18:22]	matey	mincer: i think theres more than one holocaust museum, but i dont think any of them are intended to celebrate it
[18:22]	MinceR	the berlin wall had kill zones and stuff
[18:23]	DaemonFC	MinceR, Like Trump spending tens of billions of dollars on border wall that fell over and is being sawed through and tunneled under?
[18:23]	MinceR	yeah
[18:23]	XRevan86	"they changed their name to express distinction from the federation" <- Anyway, this is false.
[18:23]	DaemonFC	As long as the people running the government actually are this stupid, it doesn't matter.
[18:23]	DaemonFC	It's YOUR money they take and waste on this junk.
[18:24]	matey	im less shocked there are memorials to stalinism, i find it more shocking that people still put his bloody picture up in shops
[18:24]	matey	it would be like finding pictures of hitler in a shop in germany
[18:24]	matey	not for sale, i mean as decor
[18:24]	DaemonFC	Well, that would be illegal.
[18:25]	DaemonFC	Holocaust denial is so illegal in Germany that it's also the law.
[18:25]	MinceR	matey: you wouldn't believe how stupid people are
[18:25]	matey	MinceR: just because im not as pessimistic as you are doesnt mean i think youre from another planet
[18:25]	MinceR	:>
[18:25]	matey	i think im probably at least 90% as pessimistic
[18:25]	matey	95% as cynical
[18:25]	matey	but a percentage point can mean a lot
[18:25]	DaemonFC	They censor out a lot of things that mention the Nazis in disgust and contempt.
[18:26]	matey	depending what its a percentage of naturally
[18:26]	DaemonFC	You know. Like, it's illegal to mention it because it makes them more comfortable not to admit it happened.
[18:26]	DaemonFC	But at the same time it's also illegal to say it never happened.
[18:26]	DaemonFC	They're some weird fucking people, the Germans.
[18:26]	matey	back shortly
[18:27]		*matey has quit (Quit)
[18:27]	activelow	DaemonFC: you are temporarily placed onto /ignore
[18:27]	MinceR	DaemonFC: they also banned at least one game which was about killing nazis
[18:28]	DaemonFC	They didn't ban it, they just censored Wolfenstein 3d to the point where you were walking around killing men in brown clothes for no reason at all, and rats, in a castle.
[18:28]	DaemonFC	With blank pictures on the walls.
[18:29]	DaemonFC	MinceR, Would be an interesting backstory if there was only a reason why the player character wanted to go into a castle with blank pictures and kill men in brown uniforms and rats.
[18:29]	MinceR	well, at least no poor virtual nazis got hurt in germany for a while :>
[18:29]	DaemonFC	Almost as interesting would be why nothing bleeds when it gets shot.
[18:30]	MinceR	it's because the self-appointed "moral" "guardians" faint if they see blood depicted on a screen
[18:30]	DaemonFC	Back in those days, it was probably a lot harder to slip people the real WADs into Germany so they could play the actual game.
[18:30]	DaemonFC	You have to copy those floppies and all.
[18:30]	DaemonFC	Or whatever game data format Wolf3d used.
[18:30]	MinceR	they weren't WADs yet :>
[18:31]	DaemonFC	It was WAD-like I think.
[18:32]	MinceR	it had separate files for separate types of data
[18:32]	MinceR	https://moddingwiki.shikadi.net/wiki/Wolfenstein_3-D
[18:32]	TR Bot	 Wolfenstein 3-D - ModdingWiki
[18:32]	DaemonFC	Wolf3d's engine is GPL now I believe.
[18:32]	DaemonFC	Nobody ever did much with it though.
[18:33]	DaemonFC	Although there WERE other games in the 90s based on Wolf3d, as a licensed engine.
[18:33]	MinceR	AudioT itself used 2 or 3 files to do the job of 1 WAD file, and only for audio files
[18:33]	DaemonFC	I also had Corridor 7: Alien Invasion.
[18:33]	MinceR	:)
[18:33]	DaemonFC	There was also some Bible game I did not have, I think.
[18:33]	MinceR	the pinnacle of entertainment software!
[18:36]	DaemonFC	Duke Nukem was probably my favorite 90s game though.
[18:36]	DaemonFC	In the eduke32 engine, it's better.
[18:37]	MinceR	you mean Duke Nukem 3D :>
[18:37]	MinceR	Duke Nukem was great, but it was a platform game and afaik eduke32 doesn't support it
[18:41]	DaemonFC	Yeah, that's it.
[18:41]	DaemonFC	Speaking of "walls", almost everyone in this city has a tall fence that's pretty sturdy.
[18:41]	DaemonFC	They know where they live I guess.
[18:41]	activelow	gcc can be bootstrapped without c++ until version v4.7, which required some backporting and patching with gentoo tooling
[18:41]	DaemonFC	Makes it harder for people the police are chasing to end up in your back yard.
[18:42]	activelow	and, gcc cannot be boostrapped easily anymore with TinyCC, which was the other finding, what the status of GNU is
[18:42]		*matey (~matey@px2in65xgak5s.irc) has joined #techrights
[18:43]	activelow	matey: gcc can be bootstrapped without c++ until version v4.7, which required some backporting and patching with gentoo tooling
[18:43]	activelow	matey: and, gcc cannot be boostrapped easily anymore with TinyCC, which was the other finding, what the status of GNU is
[18:43]	activelow	and i stumbled upon some nasty issue recently, which is the linker added some stuff, which it shouldn't
[18:43]	DaemonFC	https://www.reuters.com/legal/litigation/google-settles-over-firing-workers-protesting-immigration-cloud-deal-2022-03-21/
[18:43]	TR Bot	settles over firing of workers protesting immigration cloud deal | Reuters
[18:44]	DaemonFC	GOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOLAG
[18:44]	activelow	no idea where this symbol coming from now: __aeabi_unwind_cpp_pr0, yet it causes all binaries linked against libgcc_s.so.1
[18:44]	activelow	which caused some issues in early stage builds with gentoo, which i struggled with
[18:44]	activelow	this minor issue alone, had cost me several days of headache
[18:45]	activelow	and, it's not solved yet... i'm at it
[18:45]	matey	matey: gcc can be bootstrapped without c++ until version v4.7 <- yes ive followed your compilation odyssey fairly closely
[18:45]	activelow	why the f** does the linker add stuff which it didn't before... 
[18:46]	activelow	that's another reason why, i'll depart, i've had enough of this
[18:46]	matey	for someone who doesnt want to be married, youre taking long enough with the divorce
[18:47]		*activelow cannot afford marriage
[18:47]	matey	who can?
[18:47]	matey	bill gates is one of the 10 richest people on earth, and... well...
[18:47]	TR News	Who thought Gulag would profit from a gulag? https://www.reuters.com/legal/litigation/google-settles-over-firing-workers-protesting-immigration-cloud-deal-2022-03-21/ Microsoft also: http://techrights.org/2021/04/04/microsoft-nationalism/
[18:47]	TR Bot	 Microsoft: Nationalism As A Service (NaaS) | Techrights
[18:48]	schestowitz-TR	activelow: marriage is not about money
[18:48]	schestowitz-TR	if someone thinks that it is, you do NOT want to marry that person
[18:49]	matey	roy is pulling an mjg here
[18:49]	matey	he says marriage isnt about money
[18:50]	matey	try being poor and finding a wife though
[18:50]	matey	obviously money is a factor
[18:50]	matey	and by mjg i mean daemonfcs usual claims that he lives in an ivory tower
[18:51]	MinceR	does finding a wife require significantly more money than finding a partner to live with but not marry?
[18:51]	matey	MinceR: luck of the draw i think. sometimes, absolutely
[18:51]	matey	ive seen people ruined that way. im not against marriage
[18:52]	matey	but if the argument is that you dont have to get married for someone to ruin your life, thats obviously true
[18:52]	MinceR	afaict marriage does 2 things: 1) makes separation more costly and 2) sends a signal to a state that meddles in your private affairs uninvited
[18:52]	DaemonFC	https://baronhk.wordpress.com/2022/03/21/pretty-much-all-apple-clown-disservices-went-down-today-apple-had-no-comment/
[18:52]	TR Bot	 Pretty much all Apple Clown disservices went down today. Apple had no comment. BaronHK's Rants
[18:52]	TR News	Richard M. Stallman (RMS) Did Not Speak at LibrePlanet, But Hell Give an FSF Talk Very Soon (The State of the Free Software Movement) | Techrights http://techrights.org/2022/03/21/the-state-of-the-free-software-movement/ | Gemini address: gemini://gemini.techrights.org/2022/03/21/the-state-of-the-free-software-movement/
[18:52]	TR Bot	 Richard M. Stallman (RMS) Did Not Speak at LibrePlanet, But Hell Give an FSF Talk Very Soon (The State of the Free Software Movement) | Techrights
[18:53]	matey	marriage does 2 things: 1) makes separation more costly <- this is at risk of being an understatement
[18:53]	DaemonFC	I refer to them as Disservices as a Software Substitute, or DaaSS.
[18:53]	matey	apple-had-no-comment <- maybe they couldnt login to make one :)
[18:53]	DaemonFC	<matey> marriage does 2 things: 1) makes separation more costly <- this is at risk of being an understatement
[18:53]	DaemonFC	The IRS sticks it to single people WAAAAAY worse than it does to married people.
[18:53]	matey	DaemonFC im thinking of family courts
[18:54]	DaemonFC	If we were single, we would have owed 90.32 times as much in federal income tax last year.
[18:54]	matey	you can have kids for free until the divorce, then the gods themselves will come down upon you
[18:54]	DaemonFC	It's a corner case, but it shows how being married is heavily favored by the government.
[18:54]	matey	/me doesnt have kids
[18:55]	matey	welfare: oh youre not married and have kids you cant afford, have some money
[18:55]	SomeH4x0r	why have kids?
[18:55]	schestowitz-TR	[18:50] <matey> try being poor and finding a wife though
[18:55]	matey	also welfare: oh youre married and have kids you cant afford, have some money
[18:55]	schestowitz-TR	I had no money when I met rianne
[18:55]	SomeH4x0r	why marry?
[18:55]	matey	also welfare: of youre getting divorced and the wife is taking the kids you cant afford anyway <- DIE, MOTHERFUCKER!
[18:55]	schestowitz-TR	like I said, it's better not to marry than to find someone who checks the check
[18:56]	schestowitz-TR	like a prior date who asked me my salary on the FIRST DATE
[18:56]	matey	if youre a guy in a family on welfare and you (or your partner) gets a divorce, may god have mercy on your soul
[18:57]	matey	welfare seems to have everything figured out (i didnt say very well) up to this point
[18:57]	matey	after that marriage becomes sort of a blood oath against yourself
[18:57]	schestowitz-TR	imho, getting married makes faaaaar more sense than having children
[18:57]	schestowitz-TR	more so in the current economic climate and actual climate
[18:57]	matey	getting married makes faaaaar more sense than having children <- only one of these is necessary to the survival of the human race
[18:58]	schestowitz-TR	marriage increases sharing, which lowers costs, never mind tax benefits
[18:58]	schestowitz-TR	but companionship is a factor too
[18:58]	schestowitz-TR	ask DaemonFC about mandy serving him tea with poison
[18:58]	matey	im sure it was an honest mistake
[18:58]	DaemonFC	Kids are MOST CERTAINLY NOT FREE until the divorce.
[18:58]	DaemonFC	They just get WORSE after divorce.
[18:59]	DaemonFC	For men, anyway.
[18:59]	schestowitz-TR	matey:  "survival of the human race" is overrated anyway
[18:59]	schestowitz-TR	ask MinceR for details
[18:59]	matey	DaemonFC: i used to volunteer at a homeless shelter
[18:59]	DaemonFC	For men, they get sentenced to child support and never get to see them. Work schedules and shit.
[18:59]	matey	i know im glossing over loads of details here
[18:59]	matey	but you can have kids you cant afford-- until the divorce
[18:59]	DaemonFC	For women, they get the kids and get to take the men back to court if the check stops coming for ANY reason, and have you thrown in prison for back child support.
[18:59]	matey	its like divorce puts you on the hook for something you never had the money for in the first place
● Mar 21
[19:00]	matey	or like welfare starts working in reverse
[19:00]	DaemonFC	Even if you lost your job and it wasn't your fault and nobody is hiring and you're on your mother's couch and can't make any money at all.
[19:00]	DaemonFC	It's called a vindictive and sexist court system, my friend. :)
[19:00]	DaemonFC	Don't forget nasty. Nastier than fuck.
[19:00]	matey	but its a fact that people can survive raising kids they cant afford
[19:00]	TR News	Capital and Copyright gemini://idiomdrottning.org/capital-and-copyright
[19:00]	matey	and its common
[19:00]	matey	but after the divorce its a bloody miracle
[19:01]	DaemonFC	Yeah, because they go and sign up for welfare and expect someone else to pay for their mess.
[19:01]	DaemonFC	If I'm paying to raise some kids, they should at least be mine.
[19:01]	DaemonFC	But noooooooo.
[19:01]	matey	its really like "oh you had kids but cant pay? no problem-- just dont get divorced or we will get you for it then"
[19:01]	DaemonFC	Goddamned fucking leftists came in and I didn't get to partake in any of the fun bits along the way.
[19:01]	matey	doesnt matter who wanted the divorce, its a sword of damocles just the same
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[19:01]	DaemonFC	Then I get to pay taxes to raise them from birth to "picking up a gun and carjacking someone" age.
[19:01]	matey	well the difference is that youre against welfare, im not
[19:01]	DaemonFC	Usually 12-13 in Chicago.
[19:02]		*psydroid8 has quit (connection closed)
[19:02]	matey	we are both against the inequities of welfare
[19:02]	DaemonFC	I love paying taxes to raise a carjacker who shoots a productive member of society......said nobody ever.
[19:02]	DaemonFC	MinceR, ^
[19:02]	matey	it shouldnt be based on financially crippling people in lower tax brackets
[19:03]	matey	its a farce that it is
[19:03]	DaemonFC	It takes a village to raise an asshole, and all that.
[19:03]	matey	i dont know, with hitler it only took a doting mother and a world war
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[19:04]	bnchs	https://files.catbox.moe/ghgu90.webm
[19:04]	TR Bot	connect to files.catbox.moe:443; Network is unreachable ( status 0 @ https://files.catbox.moe/ghgu90.webm )
[19:04]	bnchs	this is modern web
[19:06]	schestowitz-TR	ouch
[19:06]	schestowitz-TR	this is js
[19:06]	psydroid2	the web of misinformation
[19:06]	matey	css is just as much to blame for that
[19:06]	MinceR	this is sparta
[19:07]	matey	the first time i saw a modal css layer i wanted to kill someone
[19:07]	DaemonFC	Having welfare programs encourages the least productive to be the most reproductive.
[19:07]	DaemonFC	They should pull it all out by the roots and use the money they saved for something useful, for people who worked their whole life and can't care for themselves anymore.
[19:08]	matey	DaemonFC: im used to gay men going on about "breeders" but you give it a nice right-wing twist
[19:08]	matey	and no, its not just gay men-- rms is an anti-natalist
[19:08]	DaemonFC	The reason there's a pensions crisis is because all the money is paying for people to have sex and produce more people who have no jobs to go to and no future to live in.
[19:08]	DaemonFC	So it seems pretty evil to me when you think about it.
[19:09]	matey	The reason there's a pensions crisis <- goes a wee bit beyond welfare really
[19:09]	matey	if you scrapped every welfare programme on earth there would STILL be a pensions crisis, maybe you can guess why
[19:11]	matey	pensions arent decided as a direct function of how much money goes into welfare instead
[19:12]	matey	theyre decided PRIMARILY by how much the laws/econony/employers can fuck over pensioners
[19:12]	matey	welfare is a convenient excuse
[19:12]	matey	granted its a common one
[19:13]	matey	if you want to get right down to it, pensions are just another kind of welfare (but since its welfare for former workers its not taboo with the right)
[19:14]	matey	disability is often for former workers too, but it gets painted differently than that
[19:14]	matey	pensions are sacred with the right, but disability (another kind of pension sometimes) isnt
[19:15]	matey	and by sacred i mean they proclaim very loudly and proudly that they support pensions while gutting them
[19:16]	matey	The reason there's a pensions crisis is bloody capitalism
[19:16]	MinceR	:>
[19:17]	kingoffrance	*creditism
[19:17]	MinceR	so what's the alternative to capitalism?
[19:17]	matey	anticapitalism :)
[19:17]	kingoffrance	credit
[19:17]	matey	thats a deliberately silly answer
[19:17]	kingoffrance	thats the truth
[19:17]	kingoffrance	this is round 2 at least
[19:18]	matey	anticapitalism is too vague to be a real answer
[19:18]	kingoffrance	that never stopped anyone
[19:18]	MinceR	once "capitalism" means "everything that is bad", it becomes quite meaningless and unhelpful when looking for solutions
[19:18]	matey	once "capitalism" means "everything that is bad" <- good, lets get it right then
[19:18]	DaemonFC	"He slipped on an icy patch."
[19:18]	MinceR	or even when looking for root causes
[19:19]	matey	capitalism doesnt mean that
[19:19]	DaemonFC	But he was decapitated.
[19:19]	DaemonFC	"It was a VERY icy patch."
[19:19]	kingoffrance	oh but it does. its just another religion on both "sides"
[19:19]	DaemonFC	I like the humor in Dr. Who sometimes.
[19:19]	matey	kingoffrance on this one we dont agree
[19:19]	kingoffrance	what does capitalism mean matey ?
[19:20]	matey	it means that the workers dont control the means of production
[19:20]	matey	actually, thats less vague but also not a definition.
[19:20]	kingoffrance	who are "the workers" ?
[19:20]	MinceR	(audio) https://hugelolcdn.com/v/817559.mp4
[19:20]	Alternative link	Cloudflare: hugelolcdn.com | Alternative: https://web.archive.org/web/https://hugelolcdn.com/v/817559.mp4
[19:20]	matey	youre not serious
[19:20]	kingoffrance	its just word games
[19:21]	matey	its not
[19:21]	matey	science isnt just word games
[19:21]	kingoffrance	lol
[19:21]	matey	you can build a computer with science
[19:21]	MinceR	sounds like we're not living in "capitalism"
[19:21]	MinceR	here i sit, a software engineer, using means of production that i own and control.
[19:21]	matey	MinceR: from a libertarian standpoint your statement is correct
[19:21]	MinceR	cooperatives also exist
[19:21]	MinceR	(but there should probably be more)
[19:21]	matey	here i sit, a software engineer, using means of production that i own and control. <- you think you control that?
[19:21]	MinceR	yeah
[19:22]	matey	even if you did, it would be an exception
[19:22]	kingoffrance	matey, how is "work" measured?
[19:22]	MinceR	"the exception proves the rule"?
[19:22]	MinceR	i think work is measured in joules
[19:22]	matey	MinceR: if you could make your own computer, you would be farther from capitalism
[19:22]	MinceR	yeah
[19:22]	kingoffrance	MinceR, :)
[19:22]	matey	that day may be here sooner than we expect, but t isnt here yet
[19:22]	MinceR	hopefully i'll be able to do so eventually
[19:22]	matey	however, that would only demonstrate that a lot of things rms pushed for REALLY WERE watered down marxism
[19:23]	matey	even though he denies this, on the grounds that marxism is communism and communism is stalinism
[19:23]	MinceR	depends on what marxism is
[19:23]	matey	it absolutely does
[19:23]	MinceR	at its core marxism is a gross misunderstanding of economics
[19:24]	MinceR	starting with the Labor Theory of Value, which is trivially disproven
[19:24]	matey	at its core, economics is a gross misunderstanding of economics
[19:24]	kingoffrance	yes, all just word games
[19:24]	kingoffrance	we agree, thank you :)
[19:24]	matey	kingoffrance <- actually in this context i partially agree
[19:24]	matey	because now we are talking about economics
[19:24]	matey	and calling that "word games" is a bit of a slight to word games
[19:25]	kingoffrance	what do you call a "gross misunderstanding" ? same result
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[19:25]	MinceR	Word Games 2022
[19:25]	matey	kingoffrance youre doing to language what scalia did to the constitution
[19:25]	matey	youre holding it to such a high standard that nothing means anything
[19:25]	DaemonFC	MinceR, One of those idiotic Bloomberg articles on how to deal with inflation.
[19:26]	DaemonFC	"Don't buy in bulk."
[19:26]	matey	but i dont think you usually do
[19:26]	kingoffrance	"specie is the only constitutional moeny in this country."
[19:26]	kingoffrance	how well did that work out?
[19:26]	MinceR	lol
[19:26]	kingoffrance	word games
[19:26]	DaemonFC	Yes, they plan on raising the price later and if you have plenty they won't get you for a while.
[19:26]	matey	but you do dance towards the edge of that, which i think is fantastic
[19:26]	DaemonFC	DON'T RUN! WE ARE YOUR FRIENDS!
[19:26]	DaemonFC	Bag of rice goes up another $10.
[19:26]	kingoffrance	noone is doing "constitution" so strraw man :)
[19:26]	kingoffrance	creditism is in, specie is out
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[19:37]	DaemonFC	<matey> DaemonFC: im used to gay men going on about "breeders" but you give it a nice right-wing twist
[19:37]	DaemonFC	I don't think I fit neatly on a right or left-wing spectrum.
[19:37]	matey	i agree
[19:38]	DaemonFC	Because the right-wing social policies disgust me as much as the left-wing fiscal policies do.
[19:38]	matey	the twist you gave that particular thign was a right-wing twist to be sure
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[19:38]	DaemonFC	Well, Stallman doesn't think people should have kids either.
[19:38]	matey	in fact if not for all your rants about left wing policies id place you on the left
[19:38]	matey	im not even sure you arent mistaken about which side youre really on :)
[19:39]	DaemonFC	The easiest way to deal with that is cut people off from government programs that encourage the worst and most unfit parents to have them to get at the government money.
[19:39]	matey	but its your right to believe you are where you are of course
[19:39]	DaemonFC	Libertarians believe that things should cost what they cost.
[19:39]	DaemonFC	And why should having kids be any different?
[19:39]	DaemonFC	Condoms are cheaper.
[19:39]	DaemonFC	Try those.
[19:40]	DaemonFC	If the government does spend any money on "reproductive" programs, it should be to prevent children from happening in the first place.
[19:42]	MinceR	yeah, stopping paying people to reproduce would help
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[19:46]	matey	<MinceR> yeah, stopping paying people to reproduce would help <- whats the alternative?
[19:46]	matey	because whatever it is, its probably been tried already
[19:46]		only rich successful people should be able to reproduce
[19:46]	matey	i cant imagine what that would do to society
[19:47]	matey	the last thing we need is a bunch of bill gates and jeff bezos running around
[19:47]	matey	imagine a world full of those
[19:47]	matey	maybe a whole nation of mark zuckerburgs
[19:47]	matey	id take hell itself over that
[19:47]	matey	or hell, just bring me back to life once a week and shoot me again
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[19:48]		mark zuckerburg cloning facility
[19:48]	kingoffrance	let me ask you this then matey :  is creditism is valid and not fraud/etc.  then what is the non-capitalist plan/mechanism to pay "national debt" ?
[19:48]	kingoffrance	*if 
[19:48]	MinceR	matey: the alternative would be not doing so
[19:48]	matey	kingoffrance i honestly cannot parse that
[19:48]	matey	MinceR: thats fair given when i said earlier, but not an answer
[19:49]	kingoffrance	is the revolution going to pay the debt?
[19:49]	matey	s/when/what
[19:49]	kingoffrance	30 trillion?
[19:49]	kingoffrance	its either valid or not
[19:49]	matey	kingoffrance: 30 trillion what?
[19:49]	matey	pay it to whom?
[19:49]	kingoffrance	https://www.usdebtclock.org/
[19:49]	TR Bot	 U.S. National Debt Clock : Real Time
[19:49]	MinceR	matey: only people who can afford to take care of their offspring should reproduce -- or better yet, no humans should reproduce at all
[19:49]	MinceR	there are way too many humans on this planet
[19:50]	MinceR	it's unsustainable
[19:50]	matey	there are way too many humans on this planet <- i make this argument too
[19:50]	MinceR	also, bringing more people into this hell is probably immoral
[19:50]	matey	its a dangerous argument, but not making it could easily be more dangerous
[19:50]	matey	also, bringing more people into this hell is probably immoral <- im starting with the premise that people are most likely going to continue being brought in anyway
[19:51]	matey	im not saying whether its moral to do so or not, either way people are being born
[19:51]		more people should be gay problem solved
[19:51]	XRevan86	I'm learning a lot about the people I interact with during this war.
[19:51]	matey	if everyone is gay theyll just adopt instead (from aquaman)
[19:51]	XRevan86	It shows people's true colours.
[19:52]	MinceR	: unfortunately that is not a matter of decision
[19:52]	matey	they might even adopt twice as often just to overcompensate
[19:52]	XRevan86	: ?
[19:52]		*SomeH4x0r has quit (Quit: siren)
[19:52]		as anything its just a mater of marketing
[19:53]	matey	kingoffrance im not avoiding your question, im trying to expose the flaw in it
[19:53]		also its a mater of availability
[19:53]	kingoffrance	matey  take your time :)
[19:54]	kingoffrance	just what debts are valid are what should be stiffed
[19:54]	kingoffrance	*and what
[19:54]	matey	kingoffrance: lets have a poke at christian martyrdom for a minute
[19:54]	matey	as long as the debt is paid, does it matter who pays it (if they are willing to do so)
[19:54]	matey	we are still talking about money here
[19:55]	XRevan86	(, )
[19:55]	kingoffrance	yes, but will the revolutionaries pay it or will they just parasitically pass it on 
[19:55]	kingoffrance	isnt that just more "capitalism" ?
[19:55]	matey	if the debt belonged to everyone equally, and you paid it, it wouldnt change any bottom lines
[19:56]	matey	you could pay youtself the debt to yourself
[19:56]	kingoffrance	thats what the sov citizens do, they get arrested :D
[19:57]	matey	a universally shared debt is a universally forgiven/dissolved debt
[19:57]	matey	rather than an "unpaid" (remaining) one
[19:57]	matey	if you assume that its impossible to forgive or dissolve a debt, there are counterinstances 
[19:57]	kingoffrance	so come the revolution it will disappear?
[19:57]	kingoffrance	im wondering how the transition will occur
[19:58]	kingoffrance	thats all
[19:58]	matey	for all intents and purposes, it will be paid off
[19:58]	kingoffrance	why would it get forgiven/dissolved? who? how? when?
[19:58]	matey	maybe a better question (really) would be to ask what purpose national debt serves
[19:59]	matey	why would it get forgiven/dissolved? <- suppose for the sake of argument, i owed you 100,000 pounds
[19:59]	TR News	EPO Industrial Actions Are Already Working | Techrights http://techrights.org/2022/03/21/epo-industrial-actions/ | Gemini address: gemini://gemini.techrights.org/2022/03/21/epo-industrial-actions/
[19:59]	TR Bot	 EPO Industrial Actions Are Already Working | Techrights
[19:59]	matey	and i said "listen, about that, i have a mansion and a few successful businesses id like to transfer to you, what do you think"
[19:59]	matey	and you say "
● Mar 21
[20:00]	matey	no, dammit, i want the 100,000 pounds"
[20:00]	matey	and then the value of the pound dwindles to 10% or less of what it was in a year
[20:00]	matey	maybe i did as you demanded and paid you
[20:00]	matey	but you should have maybe taken the mansion and various successful businesses, you could have sold them for more
[20:01]	matey	the point is that theres more than one way to pay a debt
[20:01]	kingoffrance	sure, which is the capitalist way and which way is revolutionary?
[20:01]	kingoffrance	:)
[20:01]	matey	the capitalis would demand the money if it suited their short term goals better
[20:01]	matey	but a global revolution would take something worth more instead
[20:02]	matey	either way, people forgive debts now and then, even under capitalism
[20:02]	matey	which is why i think its a weird question (but not the only reason)
[20:03]	matey	even weirder than that is the debt is enumerated in units that would fall away under communism
[20:03]	matey	so suppose the debt is 100 trillian dollars
[20:03]	matey	whats a dollar?
[20:03]	matey	socialism would come first anyway
[20:03]	kingoffrance	it was specie. that already happened one round at least :D
[20:03]	kingoffrance	this is round 2 or 3 maybe :D
[20:04]	matey	its weird to think that if the world adopted socialism, they wouldnt cancel each others debts
[20:04]	matey	but even if they didnt, the debts would ultimately become 100 trillian times 0
[20:04]	MinceR	if the world adopted socialism, we'd all starve to death
[20:04]	matey	and thats easy to pay off
[20:04]	matey	 <MinceR> if the world adopted socialism, we'd all starve to death <- youre being very inconsistent
[20:05]	matey	given your take on humanity mincer, we would all kill each other long before we could all starve
[20:05]	TR News	19 techrights posts so far today. no social control media = getting things done.
[20:05]	MinceR	yeah, i'm the one throwing ill-defined words around :>
[20:05]	kingoffrance	well i dont want to bore this channel, so i think i will leave it there, thank you for talk
[20:05]	kingoffrance	s/bore/flood/
[20:05]	matey	hey i was just having a bit of fun there
[20:05]	TR News	Banana Pi BPI-R3 WiFi 6 router board features MediaTek Filogic 830/MT7986 SoC Tux Machines http://www.tuxmachines.org/node/162808
[20:05]	TR Bot	 Banana Pi BPI-R3 WiFi 6 router board features MediaTek Filogic 830/MT7986 SoC | Tux Machines
[20:05]	TR News	Junction: An Application Switcher to Open Files and Links Tux Machines http://www.tuxmachines.org/node/162809
[20:05]	TR Bot	 Junction: An Application Switcher to Open Files and Links | Tux Machines
[20:06]	matey	its true though, in your worldview we wouldnt all starve
[20:06]	TR News	"The proliferation of commons and crowdfunding might be one way to gradually and safely move towards a better and more fair world. Although Im kinda pessimistic that thatd be enough: maybe we need to evolve more robust and more sustainable economics generally" gemini://idiomdrottning.org/capital-and-copyright
[20:07]	matey	i will note that this started when dfc said welfare is the reason that pensions are in terrible shape
[20:07]	matey	and i said no capitalism is
[20:08]	matey	and then everybody defended capitalism but only dfc attacked welfare (actually mincer may have as well, for completeness)
[20:08]	matey	we live in interesting times
[20:10]		*techrights-ipfs-bot (~techrights-ipfs-bot@pumv3cb2rfinu.irc) has joined #techrights
[20:10]	IPFS	IPFS downstream 60 minutes average 28.31 k/sec., IPFS upstream 5.66 average k/sec., average swarm size 279.96
[20:10]	matey	capitalism requires more welfare than welfare does, thats one of the biggest problems with daemonfcs equation
[20:11]	matey	who gets bailed out more, banks and megacorps or deadbeat dads? that math shouldnt be too hard 
[20:11]	matey	if you stopped bailing out the banks and megacorps you could take some of the loose change out of the giant pocket youd need for all the savings
[20:12]	matey	and start a giant baby factory (not that you should do so, for reasons mincer pointed out)
[20:12]	MinceR	"Every species can smell its own extinction. The last ones left won't have a pretty time of it. And in ten years, maybe less, the human race will just be a bedtime story for their children. A myth."
[20:13]	matey	so saying welfare is the reason pensions suck is-- patently absurd
[20:13]	TR News	Google #Android Leftovers Tux Machines http://www.tuxmachines.org/node/162810
[20:13]	TR Bot	 Android Leftovers | Tux Machines
[20:13]	matey	mincer: what year was that written
[20:13]	MinceR	1994
[20:14]	MinceR	it's from In The Mouth Of Madness
[20:14]	matey	i worry about sustainability too, im not convinced that capitalism can bring it about
[20:14]	TR News	Banana Pi router board features WiFi 6 and dual 2.5GbE http://www.tuxmachines.org/node/162808#comment-33140
[20:14]	TR Bot	 Banana Pi BPI-R3 WiFi 6 router board features MediaTek Filogic 830/MT7986 SoC | Tux Machines
[20:15]	matey	energy companies seem pretty hellbent on making the matrix an increasingly relevant metaphor
[20:15]	matey	"youre just fucking batteries"
[20:15]	MinceR	ew
[20:16]	matey	oh i see what you did there. but then, that industry already exists
[20:17]	MinceR	:>
[20:20]	TR News	howtoforge has outsourced to clownflate (malware). So sad...
[20:22]	TR News	Linux kernel 5.17 Released! How to Install it in Ubuntu 22.04 http://www.tuxmachines.org/node/162798#comment-33141
[20:22]	TR Bot	 How to Install Linux Kernel 5.17 on Ubuntu 21.10 | Tux Machines
[20:25]	MinceR	(audio:important) https://hugelolcdn.com/v/817375.mp4
[20:25]	Alternative link	Cloudflare: hugelolcdn.com | Alternative: https://web.archive.org/web/https://hugelolcdn.com/v/817375.mp4
[20:29]	TR News	Christopher Smart: Joining a bridged IRC network on Element (Matrix) https://blog.christophersmart.com/2022/03/21/joining-a-bridged-irc-network-on-element-matrix/
[20:29]	TR Bot	 Joining a bridged IRC network on Element (Matrix) Just another Linux geek
[20:31]		*CrystalMath (~coderain@pmzkstc8k8zvc.irc) has joined #techrights
[20:35]	TR News	Wow. Only one Debian Developer in 1 month. https://bits.debian.org/2022/03/new-developers-2022-02.html the large corporations (such as Gulag) are ruining Debian by driving talent away http://techrights.org/2022/01/14/debian-social-contract/
[20:35]	TR Bot	 New Debian Developers and Maintainers (January and February 2022) - Bits from Debian
[20:35]	TR Bot	 Scientific Excellence and the Debian Social Contract | Techrights
[20:36]	TR News	Keeping ones home tidy 2022 Blog GNUGuix https://guix.gnu.org/blog/2022/keeping-ones-home-tidy/
[20:36]	TR Bot	 Keeping ones home tidy 2022 Blog GNUGuix
[20:36]	TR News	Top 7 Debian-Based Distros to Try If You Want an Ubuntu Alternative Tux Machines http://www.tuxmachines.org/node/162811
[20:36]	TR Bot	 Top 7 Debian-Based Distros to Try If You Want an Ubuntu Alternative | Tux Machines
[20:37]	matey	not to mention that the rate at which megacorps are producing useless shit to try to sustain themselves will probably increase more rapidly  than the number of people having babies to try to get money out of the deal
[20:38]	matey	nobody wants capitalism, they want a sane version of it
[20:38]	TR News	Better headline would be, Microsoft transmits malware, blames "Open Source" https://www.schneier.com/blog/archives/2022/03/developer-sabotages-open-source-software-package.html
[20:38]	TR Bot	Sabotages Open-Source Software Package - Schneier on Security
[20:38]		*bnchs__ (~bnchs@xtiawgj44uy6k.irc) has joined #techrights
[20:38]	matey	like someone who doesnt want a divorce, they just want their spouse to stop being a monster
[20:39]		thats sexist
[20:39]	matey	i defy you tell me how
[20:39]	TR News	Bruce Schneier is increasingly speaking like a government and corporate shill rather than advocate of real security
[20:39]	TR News	Todays #HowTos | #UNIX Tux Machines http://www.tuxmachines.org/node/162812
[20:39]	TR Bot	 today's howtos | Tux Machines
[20:39]		why the spouse?
[20:40]	matey	what does a bad marriage have to do with sexism?
[20:40]	TR News	A1 Telekom to be held accountable for violations in Belarus - Access Now https://www.accessnow.org/a1-telekom-belarus/
[20:40]	Alternative link	Cloudflare: accessnow.org | Alternative: https://web.archive.org/web/https://www.accessnow.org/a1-telekom-belarus/
[20:40]	TR Bot	 A1 Telekom to be held accountable for violations in Belarus - Access Now
[20:41]		spouse dosent have gender?!
[20:41]	matey	it literally doesnt
[20:41]	matey	its a non-gendered term
[20:42]	bnchs__	uhhh
[20:42]	bnchs__	what happened here
[20:42]	TR News	"Encryption is a great benefit to take advantage of, especially when it comes to hosting web sites. But how exactly do TLS certificates work? In this episode, Jay and Joao discuss foundational concepts surrounding certificates, as well as some advice and recommended practices." https://yewtu.be/watch?v=bbxhxFI1wm8
[20:42]	TR Bot	 Enterprise Linux Security Episode 22 - Certificates - Invidious
[20:42]	matey	bnchs__ we were talking about welfare
[20:43]	bnchs__	you were all talking about welfare hours ago
[20:43]	matey	/me scrolls up
[20:43]	matey	less than an hour ago
[20:44]	matey	maybe dfc was talking about it hours ago
[20:44]	bnchs__	yeah dfc
[20:44]	matey	its a topic he gets on more than once a day most likely
[20:44]		i dint dfc is a chatbot
[20:44]	bnchs__	this has gone derailed beyond tech
[20:44]	matey	its related to tech
[20:45]	bnchs__	how
[20:45]	matey	we talked about mincer making his own computer
[20:45]	matey	and its related very much to the corporate takeover of free software
[20:45]	matey	which rms might address in april (but probably not)
[20:45]		MinceR is a foundry owner?
[20:45]	matey	no foundry!
[20:45]	bnchs__	well
[20:45]	matey	lea.h was talking about it last night
[20:46]	bnchs__	when i joined, i instantly got greeted with "thats sexist!"
[20:46]	matey	non-english-as-a-first-language-speaker thought spouse was a gendered term
[20:46]	MinceR	no foundry yet
[20:47]		spouse/husband
[20:47]	matey	spouse can also mean wife (or whatever)
[20:47]	bnchs__	spouse can mean anything (husband or wife)
[20:47]		i could start a case about it
[20:47]	matey	it means married person
[20:49]		i believe people usually use spouse referring to the wife
[20:49]	matey	you can believe whatever pleases you
[20:50]		get an AI program to work on it
[20:51]	bnchs__	we don't need AI
[20:51]	bnchs__	we have dictionaries
[20:52]		its not about pleasure i couldnt care less
[20:52]	matey	many of the most interesting discussions ive had online were with eastern europeans
[20:52]	psydroid2	spouse can mean both 'husband' and 'wife' in English
[20:52]	matey	often because of different takes on english
[20:52]	psydroid2	other languages have separate words for them
[20:53]	psydroid2	'echtgenoot' and 'echtgenote' in Dutch
[20:53]	psydroid2	'esposo' and 'esposa' in Spanish
[20:53]	matey	it doesnt get this interesting when talking to people in asia who learned english later
[20:53]	DaemonFC	<MinceR> if the world adopted socialism, we'd all starve to death
[20:53]	matey	but eastern europeans are amazing
[20:53]	DaemonFC	Nobody will pay farmers a fair price for their food? There's no food.
[20:54]	DaemonFC	There is state mandated prices for the no food though.
[20:54]	MinceR	lol
[20:54]	DaemonFC	Here, have another Commie Famine.
[20:54]	bnchs__	matey: how?
[20:54]	MinceR	you get to buy 0 units of FoodProductA for 0 times the state-mandated price of FoodProductA
[20:54]	DaemonFC	MinceR, I've never been thrilled about the US system.
[20:54]	bnchs__	wait he was eastern european?
[20:54]	DaemonFC	But at least there was SOMETHING to eat.
[20:54]	matey	bnchs__ like this thing where spouse is allegedly gendered, or possibly weighted towards one gender more
[20:54]	DaemonFC	And you don't get that in Communism.
[20:55]	DaemonFC	How does Cuba manage?
[20:55]	DaemonFC	They bust up your camera and expel you from the country if you take pictures of their supermarkets.
[20:55]	bnchs__	i didn't have cyrillic font
[20:55]	DaemonFC	"Why is this written in Terrorist?"
[20:55]	MinceR	:>
[20:55]		capitalism has state mandated prices for the no food
[20:56]		its called taxes
[20:57]	MinceR	https://pleated-jeans.com/wp-content/uploads/2022/03/mildly-terrifying-images-6.jpg
[20:57]	Alternative link	Cloudflare: pleated-jeans.com | Alternative: https://web.archive.org/web/https://pleated-jeans.com/wp-content/uploads/2022/03/mildly-terrifying-images-6.jpg
[20:57]		and they also have state mandated prices for the no food if they so chose
[20:57]	matey	<DaemonFC> But at least there was SOMETHING to eat. <- daemonfc when was the worst commie famine in history?
[20:57]	DaemonFC	They dole out food stamps pretty easily.
[20:58]	DaemonFC	So it's not like mass starvation going on here.
[20:58]	DaemonFC	<matey> <DaemonFC> But at least there was SOMETHING to eat. <- daemonfc when was the worst commie famine in history?
[20:58]	DaemonFC	Well, most Communist uprisings have famines.
[20:59]	DaemonFC	But there were questions about whether Mao's Great Leap Forward was designed to murder people and just look like a "transition" and "unfortunate".
[20:59]		most Communist uprisings are caused by famines.
[20:59]	DaemonFC	They directed food to the people who they wanted to have some.
● Mar 21
[21:00]		besides russian communism was just fascism under disguise
[21:01]		was and is
[21:01]	TR News	This is written like an AMD/x86 commercial. Many quotes, not much fact-checking. https://www.theregister.com/2022/03/21/amd_epyc_cpu/
[21:01]	Alternative link	Cloudflare: theregister.com | Alternative: https://web.archive.org/web/https://www.theregister.com/2022/03/21/amd_epyc_cpu/
[21:01]	TR Bot	 AMD rolls out new, pricier mega-cache Epyc server processors The Register
[21:02]		*matey has quit (Ping timeout: 2m30s)
[21:02]	TR News	Worse than DRM? https://www.theregister.com/2022/03/21/epson_payments_issue/
[21:02]	Alternative link	Cloudflare: theregister.com | Alternative: https://web.archive.org/web/https://www.theregister.com/2022/03/21/epson_payments_issue/
[21:02]	TR Bot	 Users unable to print over Epson payments snafu The Register
[21:05]	TR News	Is the new EARN IT Act new wine in an old bottle? Whatever it is, were not buying it. - Public Knowledge https://publicknowledge.org/is-the-new-earn-it-act-new-wine-in-an-old-bottle-whatever-it-is-were-not-buying-it/
[21:05]	TR Bot	 Is the new EARN IT Act new wine in an old bottle? Whatever it is, were not buying it. - Public Knowledge
[21:06]	TR News	Alleviating some legitimate concerns, Richard M. Stallman (RMS), the FSFs indisputable and sole founder, will be giving an FSF talk in a few weeks, according to this latest FSF post http://techrights.org/2022/03/21/the-state-of-the-free-software-movement/
[21:06]	TR Bot	 Richard M. Stallman (RMS) Did Not Speak at LibrePlanet, But Hell Give an FSF Talk Very Soon (The State of the Free Software Movement) | Techrights
[21:06]	TR News	The management of the EPO is feeling stressed about the impending strike and the industrial actions which imperial the fake productivity long touted by corrupt EPO management http://techrights.org/2022/03/21/epo-industrial-actions/
[21:06]	TR Bot	 EPO Industrial Actions Are Already Working | Techrights
[21:07]	AdmFubar	https://www.bleepingcomputer.com/news/security/new-phishing-toolkit-lets-anyone-create-fake-chrome-browser-windows/
[21:07]	Alternative link	Cloudflare: bleepingcomputer.com | Alternative: https://web.archive.org/web/https://www.bleepingcomputer.com/news/security/new-phishing-toolkit-lets-anyone-create-fake-chrome-browser-windows/
[21:07]	TR Bot	 New Phishing toolkit lets anyone create fake Chrome browser windows
[21:07]		*GNUmoon2 has quit (Ping timeout: 2m30s)
[21:07]	TR News	Rust is shit. https://gankra.github.io/blah/fix-rust-pointers/
[21:07]	TR Bot	 Rust's Unsafe Pointer Types Need An Overhaul - Faultlore
[21:07]	AdmFubar	https://www.bleepingcomputer.com/news/security/western-digital-app-bug-gives-elevated-privileges-in-windows-macos/
[21:07]	Alternative link	Cloudflare: bleepingcomputer.com | Alternative: https://web.archive.org/web/https://www.bleepingcomputer.com/news/security/western-digital-app-bug-gives-elevated-privileges-in-windows-macos/
[21:07]	TR Bot	 Western Digital app bug gives elevated privileges in Windows, macOS
[21:08]		*matey (~matey@xv9cfpnhn2ihe.irc) has joined #techrights
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[21:09]	TR News	Funny how Rust "experts" typically huddle around Microsoft proprietary software instead of Freedom-respecting software. They also heavily censor: http://techrights.org/2021/04/20/mpaa-riaa-still-bossing-github/ http://techrights.org/2020/06/18/rusty-censorship/ http://techrights.org/2021/11/22/microsofts-github-is-hugely-toxic-and-it-censors-critics-of-corporations-or-people-sceptical-of-those-in-power/
[21:09]	TR Bot	 Microsoft as a Censorship Machine Working to Undermine Free Software and Code Sharing (Also Sharing in General) | Techrights
[21:09]	TR Bot	 Beware Mozilla and Rust, Theyre Not Friends of Free Software or Even of Free Speech | Techrights
[21:09]	TR Bot	 Microsofts GitHub is Hugely Toxic and It Censors Critics of Corporations or People Sceptical of Those in Power | Techrights
[21:10]	TR News	ICBM in "the cloud"... BOOM! Clown computing. https://www.redhat.com/en/blog/customer-success-stories-red-hat-openshift-paves-way-toward-hybrid-cloud
[21:10]	TR Bot	 Customer success stories: Red Hat OpenShift paves the way toward hybrid cloud
[21:11]	TR News	"This is a weekly report from the CPE (Community Platform Engineering) Team. If you have any questions or feedback, please respond to this report or contact us on #redhat-cpe channel on libera.shat (libera shat/)." https://communityblog.fedoraproject.org/cpe-weekly-update-week-of-march-14th-18th/
[21:11]	TR Bot	 CPE Weekly Update Week of March 14th 18th Fedora Community Blog
[21:13]	TR News	Why is this scare back so suddenly? http://www.tuxmachines.org/node/162251#comment-33144
[21:13]	TR Bot	 Security Leftovers | Tux Machines
[21:13]	TR News	GOG Games Festival is live with lots on sale and some demos up | GamingOnLinux https://www.gamingonlinux.com/2022/03/gog-games-festival-is-live-with-lots-on-sale-and-some-demos-up
[21:13]	Alternative link	Cloudflare: gamingonlinux.com | Alternative: https://web.archive.org/web/https://www.gamingonlinux.com/2022/03/gog-games-festival-is-live-with-lots-on-sale-and-some-demos-up
[21:13]	TR Bot	Games Festival is live with lots on sale and some demos up | GamingOnLinux
[21:15]	TR News	Nontech cargo cults https://www.fosslife.org/importance-software-usability-testing
[21:15]	TR Bot	 The Importance of Software Usability Testing
[21:15]		*matey has quit (Ping timeout: 2m30s)
[21:16]		*psydroid2 has quit (Ping timeout: 2m30s)
[21:16]	TR News	Many crap or "bullshit jobs" want us to make the false assumption that coders (software developers) cannot figure out how to make a decent GUI. They made up buzzwords for themselves, e.g. "UX".
[21:16]	TR News	"Who is WordPress actually made for? Join our host, WordPress Executive Director Josepha Haden Chomphosy, as she explores this controversial question and three things that can help find the answer." https://wordpress.org/news/2022/03/episode-27-is-wordpress-made-for-me/
[21:16]	TR Bot	 Episode 27: Is WordPress Made for Me? WordPress News
[21:17]	TR News	Mozilla pushing DRM and using DRM to market Firefox; deeply misguided company that does not wish to understand the core user(base) https://blog.mozilla.org/en/products/firefox/extensions-addons/firefox-extension-helps-bring-movie-magic-to-theaters-near-you/ http://techrights.org/wiki/Mozilla
[21:17]	Alternative link	Cloudflare: mozilla.org | Alternative: https://web.archive.org/web/https://blog.mozilla.org/en/products/firefox/extensions-addons/firefox-extension-helps-bring-movie-magic-to-theaters-near-you/
[21:17]	TR Bot	 Firefox Extension Helps Bring Movie Magic To Theaters Near You
[21:17]	TR Bot	 Mozilla - Techrights
[21:19]	TR News	Linux/kernel: scheduler updates for v5.18 https://lore.kernel.org/lkml/YjhZUezhnamHAl0H@gmail.com/
[21:19]	TR Bot	 [GIT PULL] scheduler updates for v5.18 - Ingo Molnar
[21:19]	psydruid	if AMD processors are so great, why do they need to be marketed so heavily?
[21:19]	TR News	Rakudo Weekly News: 2022.12 Releasomatic https://rakudoweekly.blog/2022/03/21/2022-12-releasomatic/
[21:19]	TR Bot	 2022.12 Releasomatic Rakudo Weekly News
[21:19]	schestowitz-TR	psydruid: good point
[21:20]	schestowitz-TR	psydruid: count how many AMD articles phoronix did today
[21:20]	schestowitz-TR	I think it's 33% of the total
[21:20]	schestowitz-TR	maybe more
[21:20]	schestowitz-TR	and some are AMD/Microsoft ads
[21:20]	schestowitz-TR	I lost respect for Michael
[21:20]	schestowitz-TR	he cherry-picks commits from AMD
[21:20]	psydruid	I think there is more than meets the eye
[21:20]	schestowitz-TR	or maybe they send him emails to highlight these to him
[21:20]	schestowitz-TR	they bought him
[21:21]	schestowitz-TR	AMD is run by IBMer
[21:21]	psydruid	AMD is comparatively not doing as well as we have are made to believe and something is brewing
[21:21]	schestowitz-TR	IBM is notorious for media emasculation 
[21:21]	psydruid	-we have
[21:21]	psydruid	-have*
[21:23]	TR News	TornadoVM 0.13 is out, but it needs to delete Microsoft GitHub to be taken seriously https://www.tornadovm.org/blog GitHub is proprietary prison with NSA in charge
[21:23]	TR Bot	 Blog | TornadoVM
[21:23]	psydruid	AMD is tied to Microsoft even more than Intel is
[21:23]	schestowitz-TR	did you watch my video?
[21:23]	schestowitz-TR	I mentioned pluton
[21:23]	psydruid	I may not have watched it
[21:24]	schestowitz-TR	they seem to compete over Windows
[21:24]	schestowitz-TR	psydruid: it's from today
[21:24]	schestowitz	The State of the Free Software Movementhttp://techrights.org/2022/03/21/selling-microsoft/
[21:24]	schestowitz	it's about phoronix
[21:24]	schestowitz	the title does not say so
[21:25]	TR News	"Composable code describes classes and functions that can be readily combined to create more powerful higher-level constructs. Composability compares favorably to alternative forms of code reuse such as object-oriented inheritance" https://www.cloudsavvyit.com/15780/what-is-composable-code-and-how-can-you-create-it/
[21:25]	TR Bot	 What Is Composable Code and How Can You Create It? CloudSavvy IT
[21:26]	TR News	"You assume the role of CEO of a fresh electronics company tasked with hiring employees, designing your office and turning it all into a "ruthless money-making machine"." https://www.gamingonlinux.com/2022/03/now-you-too-can-underpay-everyone-in-office-management-101
[21:26]	Alternative link	Cloudflare: gamingonlinux.com | Alternative: https://web.archive.org/web/https://www.gamingonlinux.com/2022/03/now-you-too-can-underpay-everyone-in-office-management-101
[21:26]	TR Bot	you too can underpay everyone in Office Management 101 | GamingOnLinux
[21:27]	psydruid	they have to compete over Windows because their fortunes are built on it
[21:28]	TR News	How to conflate fakecoins with security, mostly by abusing the term "crypto" - Copyleft Currents https://heathermeeker.com/2022/03/21/crypto-for-the-rest-of-us-part-ii-what-is-proof-of-stake-and-why-should-you-care/
[21:28]	TR Bot	 Crypto for the Rest of Us, Part II: What is Proof of Stake and Why Should You Care? Copyleft Currents
[21:29]	TR News	"ASF Board management and oversight of the business affairs of the corporation in accordance with the Foundation's bylaws." https://blogs.apache.org/foundation/entry/the-apache-weekly-news-round18
[21:29]	TR Bot	 The Apache Weekly News Round-up: week ending 18 March 2022 : The Apache Software Foundation Blog
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[21:39]	MinceR	(cat) https://ircz.de/p/22031865
[21:39]	TR Bot	 IRCZ makes your life worth living https://i.imgur.com/yFSRotv.jpg created on 2022-03-18 22:02:19.234839
[21:39]	AdmFubar	https://www.nakedcapitalism.com/2022/03/senators-introduce-right-to-repair-legislation.html
[21:39]	Alternative link	Cloudflare: nakedcapitalism.com | Alternative: https://web.archive.org/web/https://www.nakedcapitalism.com/2022/03/senators-introduce-right-to-repair-legislation.html
[21:39]	TR Bot	 Senators Introduce Right to Repair Legislation | naked capitalism
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[21:54]	AdmFubar	https://www.protocol.com/bulletins/grubhub-lawsuit-dc-attorney-general
[21:54]	TR Bot	sues Grubhub over inflated menu prices - Protocol
[21:54]	AdmFubar	https://www.protocol.com/bulletins/biden-american-cybersecurity-russia
[21:54]	TR Bot	urges American firms to 'harden' cyber-defenses against Russia - Protocol
[21:55]		*prost (~68f44d50@54n9xgft8g6u2.irc) has joined #techrights
[21:55]	AdmFubar	Love the blurb about apple maps... sounds like it was work like it usually does   https://www.protocol.com/bulletins/apple-suffers-international-outage
[21:55]	TR Bot	services taken down by Monday outage - Protocol
[21:55]	AdmFubar	https://www.protocol.com/bulletins/google-settlement-anti-union-planning
[21:55]	TR Bot	settled case over anti-union planning docs - Protocol
[21:56]	MinceR	:>
[21:56]	AdmFubar	Pot? Kettle? Kettle? Pot??   https://www.protocol.com/bulletins/meta-facebook-instagram-ban-russia
[21:56]	TR Bot	labels Meta 'extremist,' outlaws Facebook, Instagram - Protocol
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[21:59]	AdmFubar	https://www.rawstory.com/r-2656999569/
[21:59]	TR Bot	 Anonymous disrupts Kremlin's propaganda with anti-Putin printer attack: report - Raw Story - Celebrating 18 Years of Independent Journalism
[21:59]	Alternative link	Cloudflare: rawstory.com | Alternative: https://web.archive.org/web/https://www.rawstory.com/r-2656999569/
[21:59]	matey	/me tries a chopstick hack like rms
● Mar 21
[22:00]	matey	somehow my pair of chopsticks has turned into half a pair
[22:00]	matey	so im holding a spoon like a chopstick and using the actual chopstick to complete the set
[22:01]	matey	ive tried two spoons, it doesnt work as well as this
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[22:02]	matey	/me would still prefer a proper set
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[22:07]	prost	the internet is breaking down
[22:07]	matey	mines been shit all evening
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[22:12]	schestowitz-TR	hi prost
[22:12]	schestowitz-TR	sharon prost :-)?
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[22:16]	prost	https://wikiborn.com/sharon-prost/
[22:16]	Alternative link	Cloudflare: wikiborn.com | Alternative: https://web.archive.org/web/https://wikiborn.com/sharon-prost/
[22:16]	TR Bot	 Sharon Prost Wiki, Wife, Net Worth, Age, Height, Girlfriend, and Biography
[22:16]	prost	her air is blue
[22:16]	schestowitz-TR	yes, we wrote about her many times
[22:16]	schestowitz-TR	she is retired now
[22:17]	schestowitz-TR	no, she was a chief judge at CAFC
[22:17]	prost	hair is blue
[22:17]	schestowitz-TR	eyes are blue
[22:17]	schestowitz-TR	hair is brokwn, I think, and dyed
[22:17]	schestowitz-TR	but that does not matter
[22:18]	schestowitz	"Sharon Prost was born in the Newburyport, Massachusetts, United States in 1951. So Lets check out some interesting details of him."
[22:18]	schestowitz	She is 71
[22:18]	prost	thats what is in that page
[22:18]	schestowitz	retired at 70
[22:18]	matey	her hair is blue, but can she code?
[22:18]	schestowitz	ha, reference to bully db
[22:19]	schestowitz	prost: seems like random crap
[22:19]	schestowitz	"
[22:19]	schestowitz	Shoe Size
[22:19]	schestowitz	8 UK
[22:19]	schestowitz	Eye Color
[22:19]	schestowitz	Black
[22:19]	schestowitz	Hair Color
[22:19]	schestowitz	Blue
[22:19]	schestowitz	"
[22:19]	schestowitz	That does not make sense
[22:19]	schestowitz	even the height 
[22:19]	schestowitz	maybe some random nonsense
[22:19]	schestowitz	the web is full of webspam
[22:20]	matey	/me wonders how many links on gemini are to sites on the web
[22:20]	matey	they should really measure that
[22:21]	leah	i... was summoned. but i've been tidying my lab all day
[22:21]	leah	i threw out... 50 bags of trash. possibly more. i'm going to have god-like efficiency now, when i wake up
[22:21]	matey	but not rowe-bot efficiency
[22:21]	leah	now, i'm going to become a rowebot. i'm insane when organized
[22:22]	leah	thanks again for the chat earlier
[22:22]	matey	im still excited about it
[22:22]	matey	particularly the news
[22:22]	matey	i was walking outside and feeling a bit glum
[22:22]	matey	and then i thought about homemade cpus and smiled a little
[22:22]	matey	true story
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[22:27]	matey	sodding "highspeed"
[22:28]	matey	its been dialup all day
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[22:32]	matey	did anyone notice if quiliro gave a talk about rms at libreplanet? it would have been a lightning talk
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● Mar 21
[23:01]		*matey has quit (Ping timeout: 2m30s)
[23:06]	bnchs__	i'm trying to maintain a decade-old project
[23:07]	bnchs__	well a decade-old abandoned one
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[23:09]	psydroid8	if it compiles ship it
[23:10]	bnchs__	it doesn't
[23:11]	bnchs__	it's mostly due to outdated automake
[23:12]	psydroid8	I would replace the build system with something sane(r)
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[23:33]	DaemonFC	https://store.steampowered.com/app/1341890/Corridor_7_Alien_Invasion/
[23:33]	Alternative link	Cloudflare: steampowered.com | Alternative: https://web.archive.org/web/https://store.steampowered.com/app/1341890/Corridor_7_Alien_Invasion/
[23:33]	TR Bot	 Corridor 7: Alien Invasion on Steam
[23:33]	DaemonFC	The game ran fine on my 486 with DOS.
[23:33]	DaemonFC	Steam says it needs Windows 7?
[23:34]	XRevan86	DaemonFC: Obviously there's a compatibility layer inside, it might.
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[23:36]	DaemonFC	"The Russian tabloid Komsomolskaya Pravda published, then later removed, a report that the Russian Ministry of Defense had recorded 9,861 Russian Armed forces deaths in the war in Ukraine.
[23:36]	DaemonFC	The report from the tabloid originally read, "According to the Russian Defense Ministry, during the special operation in Ukraine, the Russian Armed Forces lost 9861 people killed and 16153 wounded."
[23:36]	DaemonFC	CNN analyzed the HTML code in the website which indicates that the article was published on Monday at 12:09 a.m. Moscow time.
[23:36]	DaemonFC	Seconds after CNN read the original article at 9:56 p.m. Moscow time according to the HTML code the story was updated and removed all references to the death count. That update on the outlet's website came shortly after the article began to get attention from social media posts, which referenced the death count."
[23:37]	XRevan86	KP claims to have been hacked.
[23:38]	XRevan86	They're full of shit either way, but which way it is is a question without an answer.
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