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the Netware Microsoft relationship ..

To: Jan Newman From: Bob Ross Date: 8/17/93

RE: The Novell/Microsoft Relationship with regards to the developement of a NetWare Client for Windows NT ..

When we received the build, we recompiled our code and found that it would not work. We found that some changes were made to the redirector interfaces and the structure and that significant changes were made to to TDI interface. We had to discover each of the changes for our selves and then call Microsoft and point out where it had changed in order to receive each of the pieces of information from them .. This process tool a great deal of time. We lost almost 2 months of development time on the FCS release from this ..

Build 473 did not arrive when promised, but rather came to us about 3 weeks late (and 1 week after the production disk went to developers from Microsoft). The promised documentation that would explain what had been changed in this build consisted of a list of E-Mail messages between Microsoft engineers ..

Monday July 26, 1993 Microsoft went to manufacturing with the golden version of Windows NT .. We were told that our copy should arrive no later than Thursday 7/29

Friday July 30, 1993 Microsoft said that our developer copy had just gone out.

Tuesday August 3, 1993 We received our copy today, more than a week after it had been sent to customers. Microsoft told us that the delay was because the development code .. no longer fit on a single CD-ROM disk and it took them more time to work out compressing it ...

comes v Microsoft

comes: deferred use of DR-DOS ..

General Manager Kempac Equipment Systems (S) 15 September 1988

Attn Mr. Davis Yea


our management has decided to defer the commitment to using DR DOS because the list of compatible software packages is not as extensive as wish it would t-c. For example, we have tested version 3.2 which is supposed to be compatible with Novell Advanced Netware 2.0a, but it failed to run ...

  comes: comparing MS-DOS and DR-DOS ..

From: pascalm Thu Sep 22 14:42:18 1988 To: billg Cc: aaronr; philba; russw; tomle Subject: RE: DR DOS

Here- follow the three "differences" (between DR and MS DOS) that Aaron has been able to find so far. Except for these differences,the two OSs behave similarly, including undocumented calls.

The bottom line is that, given Aaron's current findings, an application can identify DR DOS. However, most apps usually have no business making calls that will let them decide which DOS (MS or DR) they are running on.

Do you think differently ? ...

I thought Microsoft never tested other OSes ?

the way to shut out Novell

From: Brad Silverberg To: Joachim Kempin Cc: Brad Chase Subject: RE: Windows base and premium Date: Thursday, January 06, 1994 10:27 AM

.. if we are too rude in base then oems may either stick with win3.1/msdos or defect to os/2.
the way to shut out novell in the base is to either ship a full client or make it so there is no network connectivity.

From: Joachim Kempin To: billg; bradsi; mikemap; paulma; steveb cc: joachimk; stevesi Subject: RE: Windows base and premium Date: Thursday, January 06, 1994 9:41 AM

.. In particular in the area of WfW kind connectivity we will face stiff competition from NOVELL and Prob, OS/2 by then ..

From: Bill Gates To: Brad Silverberg; Joachim Kempin; Mike Maples; Paul Maritz; Steve Ballmer Cc: Steven Sinofsky Subject: Windows base and premium Date: Sunday, December 26, 1993 3:16 PM

I think I am thinking of base as more limited than anyone else. I admit it causes potential problems with our compaq deal but there is a way to handle that by creating: base + some stuff is what compaq gets but that is less then premium so they can have something funny that no one else have or they can pay less and just get base or they can pay a little more and get premium.
I think base has the following things:
a. You can't add fonts. RUDE
b. You can't change screen driver. MAY BE OK
c. Some capacity constraints. Noticable - like 2 apps only or 8 meg. WILL MAKE ENDUSERS MOST ANGRY, AND OPEN OS/2 OPPORTUNITIES.
d. NO networking or connectivity. FIND RIGHT BALANCE
e. Some speed limits that are noticeable. AS LONG AS BASE = WFW AND PREMIUM GOES BEYOND WE CAN DO.
f. Only the most basic applets. AGREED.
Base is base. It is a lot better than DOS and it is NOT as good as Win:

NDS lies propagated by MS

From: Gary Hein Date: Sat, May 30, 1998 3:34 PM Subject." Fwd: ND$ for NT / LDS Church

Don’t know if you guys have seen this document yet, but it’s just another example of lies propagated by MS. There are some very disturbing remarks, including:
Although it is possible to establish bi-directional trust, the trust connection can not be used for administering remote, unmigrated domains. This means that centralizing management with NDS for NT requires a wholesale conversion of the entire enterprise
GH: False
Note that NT servers would need to run IPX/SPX to support NDS for NT as well as TCP/IP to access other network resources and to comply with current standards.
GH: False - NDS for NT works over IP - no need to add IPX. This is a scare tactic.
Service Pack updates are questionable at best. MCS has not yet released Service Pack 4.0, however we suspect it will replace the existing samsvr.dll. To protect against NT Service Packs replacing samsrv.dll, NDS for NT checks at shutdown time and replaces samsrv.dll with the Novell version. MCS believes potential for failure is very high, as soon as any rill starts depending on new exports from samsrv.dll. Replacing this one critical dll could case the system to fail to boot and recovery could be very difficult.
GH: Perhaps advance knowledge of SP4?
Microsoft has repeatedly stated that it will support their NT customers and NT’s basic functionality, but in areas that NDS touches, namely security and authentication, Microsoft will refer customers to Novell. This has the potential of creating some confusion in the resolution of issues revolving around security and authentication.
GH: Scare tactic
Also, comments from PeopleSoft should be solicited to see if PeopleSoft and Tuxedo are supported in environments where NDS for NT is in use as well as the IntranetWare client.
GH: Is it possible that MS is telling NT developer that they should not support their products with NDS for NT?
Windows NT has a feature where anonymous Iogon users can list domain user names and enumerate share names. Customers who wanted enhanced security requested the ability to optionally restrict this functionality. Windows NT 4.0 Service Pack 3 and a hotfix for Windows NT 3.51 provide a mechanism for administrators to restrict the ability for anonymous logon users from obtaining system information. These anonymous connections are also known as NULL session connections. During the installation of Novell’s NDS for NT, the samsrv.dll is replaced. Novell NDS for NT currently does not include support for restricting anonymous connections. MC£ see this deficiency as a security weakness.
GH: This is the Red Button attack, which MS ’claims’ is fixed with SP3, but really isn’t. Again, this is completely incorrect - using NDS for NT will not impact the security flaw mentioned in this document.
Anyhow - I don’t know if this is of any use to you but I thought I’d forward it over anyway. Thanks,

From: Loren Bishop <> To: HUB-OREM .SLC(BRICHAN) Date: Wed, May 27, 1998 7:52 AM Subject: Fwd: NDS for NT

Here is the document from Microsoft Consulting Services. We need a similar document from Novell. Please keep this confidential. I don’t know that Microsoft would appreciate me sharing it with you.

From: Eugene Morgan <> To: "Kenji Suzuki (E-mail)" <>, "’b... Date: Thu, May21, 1998 4:43 PM Subject: NDS for NT

Attach is the final version of the document that addresses NDS for NT. If you have any questions please call me.


Eugene Morgan Microsoft Consulting Services Rocky Mountain District (801) 540-4907


The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints

NDS for NT: Microsoft’s Consulting Services Concerns

Prepared By: Eugene Morgan Microsoft Consulting Services May 1998 Document Version 1.2


NDS for NT - MCS Concerns NDS for NT Microsoft Consulting Services Concerns

1.1 Introduction

As the Church contemplates the deployment of NDS for NT there are some things to consider. There has been some questions about NDS for NT directed to Microsoft Consulting Services regarding NDS for NT from Novell. This document will hopefully articulate our concerns with regard to this product.


1.4 Concerns With NDS for NT

Microsoft has published a number of documents on NDS for NT, unfortunately most are internal and not available to the public. In addition, there has been a considerable amount of discussion on the various e-mail aliases within Microsoft. The following represents a distillation of the various documents and discussions and enumerated what MCS feels are areas of concern.

1.4.1 Administration

Multiple tools for administration due to missing functionality. Novell’s NWAdmin does not give access to the full set of Windows NT security capabilities; in particular, there is no way to manage trust links with external (unmigrated) domains, and no way to manage local policies. The administrator uses NWAdmin for most tasks, but must use User Manager and Server manager for trust and local policy management.
Although it is possible to establish hi-directional trust, the trust connection can not be used for admirlistering remote, unmigrated domains. This means that centralizing management with NDS for NT requires a wholesale conversion of the entire enterprise.

Password synchronization: Since NDS for NT must support all Windows NT clients, not just Windows NT clients with the IntranetWare client installed, Novell must maintain two passwords for every user: a Windows NT password and an NDS password. From Novell’s own announcement documents it is clear that this is a compromise solution that is far from transparent to the user. It important to point out that it is possible for the passwords to get out of sync. This could cause additional problems for uses as well as the Help Desk and other operational teams supporting the Utility.

ACL (Access Control List) confusion: In the case of a single NDS user being granted access to multiple domains, the same user, "BobSmith" would appear in the context of each "trusted domain" selected. A Windows NT ACL could have entries for Domainl\BobSmith, Domain2\BobSmith, and Domain3\BobSmith. All three are in fact the same user, but with different SlDs (NT Security ID’s).

Also, in NDS for NT it is possible to create case-sensitive account names, for example "bsmith" and "BSmith". Because NT is not case sensitive for user names only one of the accounts would be accessible even though both would exist within NDS for NT. This could be a security issue and would also be confusing to administrators and others managing user accounts and of course customers.
NDS for NT - MCS Concerns
Multiple group paradigms: Windows NT Groups are not NDS groups. To make a group visible in Windows NT the administrator must create an IWSam group as a child of a domain object. Only users can be added to IWSam groups.
No immediately obvious scripting support: ADSl supports NDS, but ADSI does not expose the SlD, password residue, and other items required to migrate a Windows NT domain to NDS. This means the migration process is via the user interface, and the current user interface makes this quite laborious.

1.4.2 Disaster Recover

MCS is concerned with the effects NDS for NT has on recoverability in the case of a system failure. Because NDS for NT moves all of the directory information from the registry to the NetWare Directory, if the NT Primary Domain Controller fails, the following steps would be necessary to recover.
Do a reverse migrate to all the BDCs in the Domain.
Promote one ofthe BDCs to a PDC.
Reinstall and restore the original PDC as a BDC and restore files and applications.
Promote the restored BDC back to a PDC.
Reinstall NDS for NT on the PDC and each BDC in the domain.
This process seems rather involved and would cause a severe interruption of services and applications hosted on NT. It’s important to point out that some of these applications are mission critical, PeopleSoft for example. Furthermore, if any NT backup domain controllers are located remotely to facilitate faster WAN login and lower WAN traffic, as in the case of England and Australia, this becomes an even more complex process. (Note: Novell has said that they will have a fix for this at some point.)
MCS offers the following disaster recovery advice; prior to implementing NDS for NT thoroughly test the above scenario and ulxtate the disaster recovery plan on how to recover in the advent of a failure.

1.4.3 Scalability

MCS has not heard of any large implementations of NDS for NT. Considering what it takes to architect a large NDS implementation, MCS questions what effects NDS for NT will have on the existing NDS infrastructure. MCS would suggest interviewing early adopters of NDS for NT prior to implementing NDS for NT. Furthermore, it would be important to understand the impact of NDS on NT would have on the existing NDS servers and supporting network infrastructure. Note that NT servers would need to run IPX/SPX to support NDS for NT as well as TCP/IP to access other network resources and to comply with current standards.
NDS has partitioning requirements to keep from overloading its database as well as replication limitations. The NDS data is threaded through several files, remarkably similar to the file structure used by Microsoft directory service prior to moving NT’s directory to utilize the JET database engine in 1991. Our concern is that the duplication of objects in the NDS directory will impact performance significantly for all NDS authenticated users.
It’s also our understanding that in NDS for NT there is a limited one to one relationship between an NDS container and a Domain. Therefore if an enterprise has users spread across multiple NDS containers it may be necessary to implement separate NT domains that are related to the respective NDS containers.
With NDS for NT, NT domains become NDS groups. It is MCS’s understanding, based on Novell recommendation that NDS groups should not have more than 2000 members. This does raise the question about the scalability of NDS for NT. Will this group limitation be an issue for the Church?
Given that NDS for NT converts NT domains to NDS groupsl it is recommended that interdependence between these NDS groups be tested in order to ascertain that the necessary relationships exists between these NDS created groups.
As the Church begins to develop large applications, the Church my find it reasonable or necessary to deploy NT on Alpha systems in a effort to scale an application to meet demand. There is no support for NDS for NT on Alpha NT servers. Novell has indicated this is, "a hard problem" and has offered no guarantees and little hope that it will be addressed in the future.

1.4.4 Upgrade and Update Capability


At a recent Novell event, Brain Share1, a demonstration of NDS for NT was given. It was observed that at that demonstration it took 35 seconds for a user to log on against a (presumably) unloaded server in a tree with under ten users. This, naturally, raises concerns about speed and response time, not only for user authentication but also for any application that requires NT authentication.

1.4.6 Reliability

In order to install NDS for NT it is necessary to install the IntranetWare Client. Based on past performance, Microsoft does not recommend the IntranetWare Client for installation on servers, especially servers that also host mission critical applications. MCS feels this is a high risk and should be considered carefully. It’s also important to know that there are issues with using TCP/IP with Novell’s current IntranetWare client. This is one of the main reasons the Church has had to maintain its dependence on IPX/SPX.
It will also be necessary to retest any NT server based applications that runs on NT for reliability. CQH will need to be tested; DHCP, WINS, and DNS services will all need to be tested.
Also, comments from PeopleSoft should be solicited to see if PeopleSoft and Tuxedo are supported in environments where NDS for NT is in use as well as the IntranetWare client.

1.4.7 Security

What are the implications of calls that used to go between the samsvr.dll and the registry now being redirected across the network? Do the passwords retain their encrypted state that they were originally transmitted in? If they are encrypted, is that encryption secure?

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