IRC: #boycottnovell @ FreeNode: May 19th, 2009

Dae
chips	in windows, you needed almost every free antivirus you could get	May 19 00:00
oiaohm	It allows distrobutions to do the signed exe ms brages about.	May 19 00:00
_boo_	chips	May 19 00:00
tessier	Antivirus for Linux? Who would bother?	May 19 00:00
_boo_	oiaohm	May 19 00:00
_boo_	are you not completely wasted with weed?	May 19 00:01
chips	no need of antivirus in linux for now	May 19 00:01
oiaohm	Without needing to kernel patch.	May 19 00:01
chips	agreed	May 19 00:01
_boo_	smth sane at last	May 19 00:01
oiaohm	Problem is some companies have requirements that all OS's must be installed with a real-time scanner.	May 19 00:01
oiaohm	So it a market access problem.	May 19 00:01
_boo_	what?	May 19 00:01
_boo_	which companies	May 19 00:02
chips	but maybe in the future, so its best to have the capability to have the resident shield	May 19 00:02
_boo_	no, don't mention	May 19 00:02
_boo_	they're most likely bankrupts	May 19 00:02
chips	anyway, Linus thinks its important and is working on it for the kernel	May 19 00:02
_boo_	resident shield XD	May 19 00:02
oiaohm	Wine project also requested it.	May 19 00:02
_boo_	chips	May 19 00:02
schestowitz	Jo Shields?	May 19 00:02
_boo_	did you try wall against the head?	May 19 00:03
oiaohm	Wine does run some windows virus on Linux.	May 19 00:03
_boo_	chiiips	May 19 00:03
oiaohm	Real-time scanning will be a great assist in preventing that.	May 19 00:03
_boo_	linus is not authoritative anymore	May 19 00:03
_boo_	for plenty of years	May 19 00:03
_boo_	he sold himself	May 19 00:03
oiaohm	Linus still has final say on main line.	May 19 00:03
_boo_	in kernel, yup	May 19 00:04
_boo_	not in anything else	May 19 00:04
oiaohm	He does not have final say on support line.	May 19 00:04
chips	boo, that is what we are talking about, the kernel	May 19 00:04
_boo_	and he said gplv3 is not the one to go with	May 19 00:04
oiaohm	Linus never has been the be all or end all.	May 19 00:04
_boo_	yeah, he's kinda paid nothing	May 19 00:04
oiaohm	Linus is paid a lot.	May 19 00:05
chips	Linux is the kernel guy, RMS was the man with the plan	May 19 00:05
_boo_	i mean, oiaohm	May 19 00:05
chips	both are great people	May 19 00:05
_boo_	he's nothing	May 19 00:05
_boo_	and he's paid for dat	May 19 00:05
oiaohm	Linux foundation pays Linus because there were a bidding war over him.	May 19 00:05
oiaohm	RMS never has had a bidding war over him.	May 19 00:05
chips	never said that	May 19 00:06
_boo_	it's just wrong	May 19 00:06
_boo_	to have war ova one developer	May 19 00:06
_boo_	even though he's a good oone	May 19 00:06
oiaohm	Particularly when it got to 1 billion dollars a year +.	May 19 00:07
_boo_	lol	May 19 00:07
oiaohm	Linus is also a chip designer.	May 19 00:07
schestowitz	RMS man with a plan?	May 19 00:07
schestowitz	Not Linus'	May 19 00:07
schestowitz	Not Linus' plan	May 19 00:07
_boo_	cheap designer	May 19 00:07
oiaohm	No chip designer.	May 19 00:07
_boo_	no cheap designer	May 19 00:07
schestowitz	Linus wants market share	May 19 00:07
chips	Well, RMS was mostly the force behind GNU	May 19 00:07
schestowitz	RMS wants Freedom	May 19 00:07
oiaohm	Linus has designed quite a few patented chip design bits.	May 19 00:08
schestowitz	I spoke to Linus	May 19 00:08
schestowitz	He still feels OK about proprietarisation of Linux	May 19 00:08
_boo_	you did	May 19 00:08
oiaohm	Linux was ment to be linus hobby away from chip design.	May 19 00:08
_boo_	yeah	May 19 00:08
_boo_	because, schestowitz he's paid for dat	May 19 00:08
oiaohm	Its funny how the world turns out some times.	May 19 00:08
tessier	Linus designs chips?	May 19 00:08
schestowitz	RMS's world domination: users dominate computers	May 19 00:08
_boo_	he designes cheap	May 19 00:09
schestowitz	Linus' world domination: market share	May 19 00:09
_boo_	ñðóôç	May 19 00:09
tessier	When it was started Linux was Linus' hobby during college when he didn't even have a jbo.	May 19 00:09
tessier	job	May 19 00:09
_boo_	wtf	May 19 00:09
schestowitz	True	May 19 00:09
_boo_	nice	May 19 00:09
schestowitz	Then he got invited by Transmeta	May 19 00:09
_boo_	linus is all about money now	May 19 00:09
_boo_	forget about him already	May 19 00:09
schestowitz	Just did his thing while they paid his bills so to speak	May 19 00:09
_boo_	there's no linus	May 19 00:09
chips	we could be using herd as the kernek	May 19 00:09
_boo_	but linux prospers	May 19 00:10
chips	*kernel	May 19 00:10
schestowitz	Nope	May 19 00:10
schestowitz	Hurd has poor hw support	May 19 00:10
_boo_	wtf	May 19 00:10
schestowitz	And it's underdeveloped	May 19 00:10
tessier	Hurd has had lots of problems since the beginning	May 19 00:10
_boo_	why do you even mention hurd	May 19 00:10
chips	yes, herd is not there and may never be	May 19 00:10
_boo_	and it will never be	May 19 00:10
tessier	I think the micro-kernel idea is interesting though.	May 19 00:10
tessier	Hopefully someone will be more successful with it.	May 19 00:11
_boo_	like minix?	May 19 00:11
schestowitz	They got funding	May 19 00:11
_boo_	lol	May 19 00:11
schestowitz	Millions for research from EU	May 19 00:11
_boo_	schestowitz, look at their site	May 19 00:11
_boo_	and what is developed by whom	May 19 00:11
_boo_	and what do they need to develop	May 19 00:11
oiaohm	http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Transmeta Linus design there Crusoe and worked on there other processes tessier.	May 19 00:11
_boo_	minix is not living	May 19 00:11
schestowitz	They need funding, I think	May 19 00:11
_boo_	it's like in coma	May 19 00:11
schestowitz	EU should have paid them	May 19 00:11
oiaohm	Linus is a qualified chip designer. Not a qualified programmer.	May 19 00:12
_boo_	even with funding it's in coma	May 19 00:12
tacone	eu.. grrr.	May 19 00:12
_boo_	oiaohm, it's just yet another designer	May 19 00:12
_boo_	but he has name and he is paid	May 19 00:12
schestowitz	tacone: did you see the IDG article?	May 19 00:12
schestowitz	Moody cited you	May 19 00:12
_boo_	for what he tells	May 19 00:12
tacone	eu is clever by the way. they pay MS for their prison, then they accuse them of violating the antitrust and get the money back.	May 19 00:12
tacone	schestowitz: no, which one ?	May 19 00:12
schestowitz	tacone: yes, then MS uses this	May 19 00:12
schestowitz	tacone: they uses EU use of Windows as a weapon against them	May 19 00:13
_boo_	lol	May 19 00:13
tacone	uri ?	May 19 00:13
schestowitz	As if to say, who are you to punish MS?	May 19 00:13
_boo_	so eu is slowly turning linux	May 19 00:13
_boo_	'cause noone will like that state	May 19 00:13
schestowitz	Way up in the lof, tacone	May 19 00:13
chips	Speaking of the EU, wonder how big the fine for M$ is going be, and if they make M$ remove IE all of it. Seven would have been out by now, if not for the EU case.	May 19 00:13
schestowitz	*log	May 19 00:13
schestowitz	http://www.computerworlduk.com/community/blogs/index.cfm?entryid=2195&blogid=14	May 19 00:13
_boo_	chips, read about intel fine	May 19 00:13
tacone	schestowitz: i was offline	May 19 00:13
tacone	ok	May 19 00:13
tacone	let me see	May 19 00:13
oiaohm	EU does do anti-trust cases.	May 19 00:14
oiaohm	Where USA has not been.	May 19 00:14
_Goblin	Ive been a dubious of the EU meddling in anything...Roy, remember the fiasco with the utility companies?	May 19 00:14
oiaohm	I really would love the USA to bite them.	May 19 00:14
tacone	omg they linked me	May 19 00:14
tacone	gartner will kill me now	May 19 00:14
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oiaohm	Some how I think MS is setting up to move to india and places where anti-trust do not apply.	May 19 00:14
tacone	linked by computerworld.com. pretty cool	May 19 00:15
chips	Not going happen here in the USA oiaohm. Our gov is bought and paid for by M$. I posted links on that	May 19 00:15
tacone	guess italian idg just sleepes on that	May 19 00:15
oiaohm	chips: MS many not have the money to keep on paying soon.	May 19 00:16
oiaohm	They are not cutting departments because they are doing well.	May 19 00:16
chips	M$ only laidoff 1% of employees in India. It has 3000 employees last year in India.	May 19 00:16
tacone	italian idg is so dumb. i used to work for them.	May 19 00:16
_boo_	what's idg	May 19 00:17
chips	M$ is borrowing money now, as interest rates are dirt cheap	May 19 00:17
_boo_	why not shit cheap	May 19 00:17
chips	a 30 year note with M$ will never be repaid	May 19 00:17
_boo_	and what's idg?	May 19 00:17
_boo_	nice	May 19 00:20
_boo_	there're a lot of idgs	May 19 00:20
_boo_	and you mention it like there's one special	May 19 00:20
tacone	12000 downloads of that pdf until today	May 19 00:20
chips	M$ needs to money to keep buying back their stock, so Bill, Steve, and Paul, among others, can keep selling some and keep the price up	May 19 00:20
tacone	from my site, i mean	May 19 00:20
tacone	not bad.	May 19 00:20
_boo_	who's paul	May 19 00:21
chips	paul allen	May 19 00:21
tacone	battery going down.	May 19 00:21
chips	co-founder of ms	May 19 00:21
tacone	cu in some second	May 19 00:21
_boo_	paul allen	May 19 00:21
_boo_	he obviously came later than win1.03	May 19 00:21
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chips	no	May 19 00:22
_boo_	i don't remember such a name from almost anything	May 19 00:22
_boo_	but gotta learn now	May 19 00:22
tacone_	back. almost	May 19 00:22
chips	why don't you google it boo?	May 19 00:22
_boo_	this name is sleezy	May 19 00:23
_boo_	i don't search for anything sleezy	May 19 00:23
tacone_	I'm not anymore on the -social channel	May 19 00:23
_boo_	lol	May 19 00:23
_boo_	which one	May 19 00:23
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chips	The banks in the USA are now being run for the purpose of bonuses by those who run them. Microsoft is being run by Steve and Bill for the purpose of converting most of their stocks to cash.	May 19 00:25
chips	as such M$ is not interested in taking any more chances on changing its windows os	May 19 00:26
_boo_	strange, right?	May 19 00:26
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chips	gn	May 19 00:28
schestowitz	tacone writing from the streets?	May 19 00:28
_boo_	you guys always run around, find any small misstep of someone just to conenience yourself	May 19 00:28
schestowitz	tapping on phones?	May 19 00:28
tacone	yeah	May 19 00:28
schestowitz	hehe. Nice.	May 19 00:28
_boo_	but you already know what's going on	May 19 00:28
tacone	I was on the pc before using the phone as a modem	May 19 00:29
schestowitz	I'm uncompressing the backup now	May 19 00:29
schestowitz	done	May 19 00:29
schestowitz	untarring	May 19 00:29
_boo_	why don't you move a bit higher?	May 19 00:29
tacone	but that way it goes out of battery even if attached to the cable	May 19 00:29
tacone	so now I'm just tapping the phone	May 19 00:30
schestowitz	It's the first time I have a host with SSH access. So good!	May 19 00:30
schestowitz	Apart from small things I hosted myself	May 19 00:30
tacone	ssh access rules	May 19 00:31
_boo_	no, you guys wanna pledge to the dirt: i won't leave ya	May 19 00:31
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_boo_	there's even more dirt at higher levels	May 19 00:32
schestowitz	What's higher?	May 19 00:34
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schestowitz	Burma's Suu Kyi faces trial over American intruder < http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2009/may/14/aung-san-suu-kyi-faces-trial >	May 19 00:37
chips	Linux Netbooks: Hit Microsoft where it ain't http://news.cnet.com/8301-13505_3-10243710-16.html	May 19 00:38
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chips	Preston Gralla Microsoft's biggest blunder: Vista or Windows Me? http://blogs.computerworld.com/microsofts_biggest_blunder_vista_or_windows_me	May 19 00:39
schestowitz	Change[ing] history: Obama's latest effort to conceal evidence of Bush era crimes < http://www.salon.com/opinion/greenwald/2009/05/13/photos/ >	May 19 00:39
schestowitz	chips: oh no, don't feed that shill	May 19 00:39
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chips	yes, he is a shill, but sometimes gets a small fact right. Better than ed Bott or George Oui	May 19 00:40
schestowitz	RMS: "Obama should stop dawdling and nationalize the failed banks." http://www.stallman.org/archives/2009-mar-jun.html#18%20May%202009%20%28Nationalize%20the%20failed%20banks%29	May 19 00:40
tacone	hello again (sigh)	May 19 00:40
schestowitz	Oiu?	May 19 00:41
schestowitz	Oooh wee!	May 19 00:41
schestowitz	Edd Baught	May 19 00:41
chips	sorry for the spelling	May 19 00:41
schestowitz	Ad Bought	May 19 00:41
schestowitz	Microsoft Bought, Ad	May 19 00:41
chips	shillers	May 19 00:41
chips	Microsoft IIS6 bug exposes sensitive files sans password http://www.theregister.co.uk/2009/05/18/iis6_file_pilfering_bug/	May 19 00:42
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schestowitz	tessier: I have all the files now in /old_account_surpass/cpmove-boycottn	May 19 00:43
chips	I posted on Goblins site about Joe Wilcox having to send his Mac laptop back to Apple, because its a loaner review	May 19 00:43
chips	nice upgrading Roy	May 19 00:43
chips	comment, not post I should say	May 19 00:43
schestowitz	I make a backup of public_html just in case something goes wrong	May 19 00:45
chips	so gaming console money finially took a hit in this depression in April by at least 17%	May 19 00:45
chips	the 4th quarter of M$ in June is going be bad. Watch for more layoffs there	May 19 00:46
chips	Sony reports $1 billion annual loss http://news.cnet.com/8301-1023_3-10240672-93.html	May 19 00:48
chips	Sony also cut the price of the PS2 to $99 now	May 19 00:49
schestowitz	tessier: we should probably swap with the database. From that point onwards I can handle it alone.	May 19 00:49
schestowitz	boycottn@mail ~]$ pwd	May 19 00:49
schestowitz	/home/boycottn	May 19 00:49
schestowitz	[boycottn@mail ~]$ ls *.sql	May 19 00:49
schestowitz	boycottn_wiki.sql boycottn_wrdp1.sql	May 19 00:49
schestowitz	[boycottn@mail ~]$	May 19 00:49
schestowitz	These are the database we need to replace the old ones (preferably when making backup of those that are now being used, just in case)	May 19 00:50
chips	M$ plan was to dump xbox360 and try to force Sony to abandon the PS3, by losing money on the console. dumping	May 19 00:51
tacone	those are just dumps	May 19 00:51
schestowitz	Yes	May 19 00:53
schestowitz	mysql.sql might help	May 19 00:55
schestowitz	[boycottn@mail ~]$ ls *.sql -la	May 19 00:56
schestowitz	-rw-r--r-- 1 boycottn boycottn 11720891 May 18 14:30 boycottn_wiki.sql	May 19 00:56
schestowitz	-rw-r--r-- 1 boycottn boycottn 222203324 May 18 14:31 boycottn_wrdp1.sql	May 19 00:56
schestowitz	-rw------- 1 boycottn boycottn 3636 May 18 17:09 mysql.sql	May 19 00:56
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chips	Xbox Tester Reveals Several Interesting Things: Secret Xbox Suicide Command http://blog.seattlepi.com/digitaljoystick/archives/168594.asp?from=blog_last3	May 19 00:57
tacone	going to bed.	May 19 00:58
chips	quote: "Yesterday I had a very long interesting conversation with a recently laid off Xbox 360 hardware/software tester who had some very interesting things to say to me. They are: Cool Xbox RROD illustration Linking to me 1st. Interesting Thing: There is a super secret kill-switch remote suicide self-destruct command that if Microsoft really wanted to the	May 19 00:58
schestowitz	Yes, I heard	May 19 00:58
tacone	good night.	May 19 00:59
chips	interesting that M$ is putting this type of kill switch in xbox360 just like the Vista WGA	May 19 01:00
chips	but more. Ok, gn Roy, this time I am really going	May 19 01:01
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oiaohm	MS did not put that in chips	May 19 01:13
oiaohm	IBM designed it chips	May 19 01:13
oiaohm	It is part of the processor design the xbox 360 users.	May 19 01:13
schestowitz	Yes, all of them	May 19 01:14
schestowitz	Consoles	May 19 01:14
schestowitz	But Microsoft piggybacked Sony'y resarch money	May 19 01:14
oiaohm	PS3 and Wii don't have self destruct.	May 19 01:14
schestowitz	Sony paid IBM for Cell	May 19 01:14
oiaohm	Different chip designs.	May 19 01:15
schestowitz	Then MS used that work to have IBM make similar chips, with Sony's investment	May 19 01:15
schestowitz	According to WSJ IIRC	May 19 01:15
oiaohm	MS wanted a mil grade chip.	May 19 01:15
schestowitz	haha	May 19 01:15
schestowitz	Miliatry grade	May 19 01:15
schestowitz	Yes, one that will catch on fire gracefully	May 19 01:15
oiaohm	Who said IBM gave them one.	May 19 01:15
schestowitz	oiaohm: now I swap home dirs	May 19 01:16
schestowitz	In-place	May 19 01:16
schestowitz	What do you recommend?	May 19 01:16
oiaohm	IBM basically used xbox360 to test out there proto tech.	May 19 01:16
schestowitz	Overwrite files?	May 19 01:16
oiaohm	Ok why are you swaping home dirs.	May 19 01:16
schestowitz	Or delete and put in?	May 19 01:16
schestowitz	Old one and new one	May 19 01:16
schestowitz	I think new one only has a few more files	May 19 01:17
schestowitz	new images mainly	May 19 01:17
schestowitz	OK to overwrite you reckon?	May 19 01:17
oiaohm	I normally run a directory compare to find out what is different.	May 19 01:17
oiaohm	Nothing is worse than someone access a half change file.	May 19 01:17
schestowitz	/public_html/the_file.php (old) with /public_html/the_file.php (new, same)	May 19 01:17
oiaohm	Basically only change what is different.	May 19 01:18
oiaohm	Even then think about it.	May 19 01:18
schestowitz	OK	May 19 01:18
schestowitz	What do you use for dir compare?	May 19 01:18
schestowitz	I don't want to disable the site while I do this	May 19 01:18
oiaohm	Problem is I have not had to do this for a while last time I wrote a script.	May 19 01:19
schestowitz	KDE has a nice tool for stuff like file to file comparison when overwriting	May 19 01:21
schestowitz	OK	May 19 01:21
schestowitz	I'm sure the diffs are just images	May 19 01:21
schestowitz	I will not change code files	May 19 01:21
schestowitz	Just the rest	May 19 01:22
oiaohm	Basically a tool to tell you what is different is what you need.	May 19 01:24
oiaohm	Then change the different.	May 19 01:24
oiaohm	Problem is live site people could be accessing files that were already there.	May 19 01:24
oiaohm	Remember live means you are not the only user.	May 19 01:24
oiaohm	Reason why some web developers run a shadow.	May 19 01:25
oiaohm	Ie 2 web site configs that they can switch between so they can do more extream changes without users noticing.	May 19 01:26
schestowitz	Yes, I know	May 19 01:26
schestowitz	I don't change public_html yet	May 19 01:26
schestowitz	Just dirs outside it	May 19 01:26
oiaohm	Live you can add.	May 19 01:26
schestowitz	like ~/mail	May 19 01:26
oiaohm	Removing gets trouble sum.	May 19 01:27
oiaohm	Overwrite gets trouble sum.	May 19 01:27
schestowitz	Yes, I know	May 19 01:27
schestowitz	I will just need to add files	May 19 01:27
schestowitz	Not delete	May 19 01:27
oiaohm	Or overwrite.	May 19 01:28
oiaohm	Because overwrite is about as bad as delete.	May 19 01:28
oiaohm	Files have to be made non live before you overwrite them.	May 19 01:28
schestowitz	http://linuxlock.blogspot.com/2009/05/living-to-hack-and-getting-it-done.html	May 19 01:29
schestowitz	Nice guy, helps kids	May 19 01:29
schestowitz	Some dude on his blog pretended to be me	May 19 01:30
schestowitz	Attacked the author under my name	May 19 01:30
schestowitz	He told me: "I was recently let in on a little fact of life Roy. If the first comments on any given blog or article are from the Windoze fanboyz, trying to dispute your point, then you have indeed struck a nerve. I may be coming up in the world because it has been happening with greater regularity. The reason I believe I do not get the "hate" you do is because our project works with kids..."	May 19 01:30
schestowitz	"validated by my city counsel and even mentioned on rush limbaugh's show. Even freakin' idiots know better than to attack a charity that serves kids. Well, Yonah is closely approaching that zone...I firmly believe he is the one that forged your name. Then again, it may be the guy in Boston you nailed a while back. Who is that putz>"	May 19 01:30
schestowitz	Fake 'me': http://linuxlock.blogspot.com/2009/05/thin-line-between-victim-and-idiot.html#comment-5756553526765963159	May 19 01:32
oiaohm	The problem we have had is people like me and Linuxlock who talk openign about linux problems have a bad habit of being called trolls.	May 19 01:33
oiaohm	There is a difference a troll does not give solutions.	May 19 01:34
oiaohm	More they try to say there is not light at the end of tunnel.	May 19 01:34
oiaohm	I see a future for Linux. But sweeping problems under carpet slow that future coming.	May 19 01:35
oiaohm	I don't see a long term future for MS.	May 19 01:36
oiaohm	Problem is MS guys try to call you a troll schestowitz. Then try to use you rep to call others doing the right things trolls.	May 19 01:39
schestowitz	Yes, I know	May 19 01:39
schestowitz	Happened before	May 19 01:39
schestowitz	I wrote about it	May 19 01:40
schestowitz	Then journalists would hate me	May 19 01:40
schestowitz	Because of fakers	May 19 01:40
schestowitz	Who insult them	May 19 01:40
schestowitz	Hehe.	May 19 01:41
schestowitz	deny from 209.160.73.80	May 19 01:41
schestowitz	deny from 83.167.24.214	May 19 01:41
schestowitz	When the DDOS began I tried to block all sorts of IPs	May 19 01:41
schestowitz	it was a pointless battle	May 19 01:41
schestowitz	Just .htaccess vs DDOS	May 19 01:41
oiaohm	Iptables are required.	May 19 01:42
oiaohm	The run on responsive rules.	May 19 01:42
oiaohm	Not static so attackers cannot get around them simply.	May 19 01:42
oiaohm	Even squid with rules is more effective than .htaccess against DDOS	May 19 01:43
oiaohm	Make sure you do a backup before enabling comments schestowitz.	May 19 01:43
schestowitz	Yes, I have a plan	May 19 01:48
schestowitz	oiaohm: we use both	May 19 01:48
schestowitz	Squid and iptables I think	May 19 01:48
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tacone	sic	May 19 01:53
tacone	back again	May 19 01:53
tacone	anyone online ?	May 19 01:53
schestowitz	Yes	May 19 01:55
schestowitz	I finished restoring home directory	May 19 01:55
schestowitz	Now just need to swap DBs	May 19 01:55
schestowitz	tessier is away though	May 19 01:55
schestowitz	Home directory restored fully. Tomorrow I'll do the DB. We now have SSH access to our new server. No quotas	May 19 01:58
schestowitz	OK, pictures restored. http://boycottnovell.com/2009/05/14/killing-software-patents/	May 19 02:01
\|neighborlee\|	schestowitz: as usual...when the debate hits too close to home..ubuntu staff members close things down: http://ubuntuforums.org/showthread.php?t=1141986&page=8	May 19 02:01
\|neighborlee\|	schestowitz: and its even ON recurring discussions..where such things are meant to take place, apparantly not ? ;))	May 19 02:01
tacone	i'm just an idiot writing a mono post because a mono troll trolled me up	May 19 02:02
tacone	and a lenghty one.	May 19 02:02
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DaemonFC	heh	May 19 02:02
\|neighborlee\|	tacone: hey we have to speak out...someone has to warn people about this mess	May 19 02:03
DaemonFC	the lady at the gas station let me buy my pop with those free cigarette coupons	May 19 02:03
tacone	hope to have it done for tomorrow evening. shame on them	May 19 02:03
DaemonFC	sweet	May 19 02:03
tacone	\|neighborlee\|: ???	May 19 02:03
DaemonFC	hmmm	May 19 02:03
tacone	this mess what ? we who have to speak out what about what ?	May 19 02:03
schestowitz	All that's left now is for tessier to install the 'new' DBs, then we're all set	May 19 02:03
DaemonFC	schestowitz: Microsoft has stepped up their Windows Defender updates	May 19 02:03
DaemonFC	:)	May 19 02:03
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\|neighborlee\|	tacone: well it sounded like you were espousing the virtues of taking on mono, though its painful because of the 'mono t rolls' which make life slighgly uncomfortable..did I miss something ? ;))	May 19 02:04
mib_rryhvw	Are we no longer allowed to post anonymously in Boycott Novell?	May 19 02:04
DaemonFC	schestowitz: Microsoft used to doo weekly updates for WD pattern files	May 19 02:05
DaemonFC	they seem to be doing them every 2-3 days now	May 19 02:05
DaemonFC	*do	May 19 02:05
tacone	i'm not really a mono basher. but someone went beyond my moral limits	May 19 02:05
\|neighborlee\|	tacone: fine.then we're on the same page.	May 19 02:05
\|neighborlee\|	tacone: lets not split hairs.	May 19 02:05
\|neighborlee\|	:)	May 19 02:05
tacone	so i'll ask this nice group of mono supporter to work on mono more silently.	May 19 02:06
DaemonFC	seems like Microsoft is fed up with all the crap hijacking Windows	May 19 02:06
tacone	possibly hidden on a far island (with no internet connnection to the outer world)	May 19 02:06
DaemonFC	and is actually maintaining their pattern files seriously now :P	May 19 02:06
\|neighborlee\|	lol	May 19 02:06
schestowitz	mib_rryhvw: it'll be back to normal soon	May 19 02:06
schestowitz	We merge DBs, so no comments in the mean time	May 19 02:06
mib_rryhvw	Thanks sches.	May 19 02:06
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schestowitz	Nagios Founder Comments on Icinga Fork < http://www.linuxpromagazine.com/online/news/nagios_founder_comments_on_icinga_fork >	May 19 02:07
tacone	i mean, I even made a Gnome Do article some time ago. but they fed me up.	May 19 02:07
DaemonFC	schestowitz: What's your take on iMagic OS	May 19 02:07
DaemonFC	do you figure it's a GPL violation?	May 19 02:07
schestowitz	Probably	May 19 02:07
schestowitz	Or just offensive	May 19 02:07
tacone	if only they just cared to bring up clever arguments instead of mindless bashing other languages.	May 19 02:07
DaemonFC	"Microsoft Compatible!	May 19 02:08
DaemonFC	iMagic OS can now run almost every application create for a Microsoft Windows based Operating System!"	May 19 02:08
schestowitz	oiaohm: did you see this? http://www.phoronix.com/scan.php?page=article&item=ubuntu_osx_64bit&num=1	May 19 02:08
DaemonFC	where have we heard this before	May 19 02:08
DaemonFC	Lindows? :)	May 19 02:08
schestowitz	Why does Michael compare Apple and Linux on _APPLE_ hardware?	May 19 02:08
DaemonFC	Linux should run fine on a Mac	May 19 02:09
\|neighborlee\|	now yes.	May 19 02:09
DaemonFC	those are more standardized than a PC	May 19 02:09
schestowitz	He would need to compile everything including X for this plattform and refine and take advantage of all the features	May 19 02:09
DaemonFC	simply cause there's only one company behind it	May 19 02:09
DaemonFC	call it a fortunate side effect	May 19 02:09
\|neighborlee\|	well I still think its sad that the CNR thing never took off..linux need ed something like download.com	May 19 02:10
DaemonFC	only having to target a dozen models of Mac sounds easier than the infinite combinations of hardware on a PC	May 19 02:10
\|neighborlee\|	I mean for all distros as it were..some place where they all converged..a united front.	May 19 02:10
tacone	http://www.pcworld.com/article/165058/ubuntu_one.html	May 19 02:10
\|neighborlee\|	or at least the major ones...?	May 19 02:10
schestowitz	\|neighborlee\|: Xandros made nothng out of CNR?	May 19 02:10
\|neighborlee\|	well, they had their own thing	May 19 02:11
DaemonFC	CNR was always a joke	May 19 02:11
\|neighborlee\|	xandros n etwork	May 19 02:11
\|neighborlee\|	xandros	May 19 02:11
\|neighborlee\|	it was not a joke	May 19 02:11
DaemonFC	it was nothing but a dumbed down frontend to apt	May 19 02:11
DaemonFC	anyone could have made it	May 19 02:11
\|neighborlee\|	imnsho :))	May 19 02:11
schestowitz	(come to #boycottnovell-social if you talk about the attacks BTW)	May 19 02:11
DaemonFC	if you want stupid, it's not hard to find or create your own	May 19 02:11
DaemonFC	:D	May 19 02:11
\|neighborlee\|	but it was a nice interface to download and critique things..unlike boring synatpic	May 19 02:11
\|neighborlee\|	aptic	May 19 02:11
DaemonFC	I prefer Synaptic	May 19 02:12
DaemonFC	but there's no reason they can't have both	May 19 02:12
\|neighborlee\|	compare synaptic, to download.comn.its laughable.	May 19 02:12
DaemonFC	hence the Add/Remove crapplet	May 19 02:12
\|neighborlee\|	still crappy comparatively speaking	May 19 02:12
DaemonFC	what's that, like 2 more megs?	May 19 02:12
tacone	schestowitz: because Macosx runs only on Apple hardware	May 19 02:12
tacone	no other easy way to compare them.	May 19 02:13
*DaemonFC sets out to write an Add/Remove programs crapplet in C#		May 19 02:13
*DaemonFC integrates Tomboy into it		May 19 02:13
\|neighborlee\|	rofl	May 19 02:13
DaemonFC	:)	May 19 02:13
schestowitz	tacone: true, let me think of an analogy	May 19 02:13
schestowitz	Apple is the football team that does not have a car	May 19 02:13
*DaemonFC makes sure it uses notify-OSD too		May 19 02:13
*tacone integrates Mono on a rocket		May 19 02:13
\|neighborlee\|	ha	May 19 02:13
schestowitz	It only accepts home games	May 19 02:13
*tacone launches the rocket to Mars		May 19 02:13
*\|neighborlee\| has quit ("When two people dream the same dream, it ceases to be an illusion. KVIrc 3.4.2 Shiny http://www.kvirc.net")		May 19 02:14
*tacone hears Mars people bitching		May 19 02:14
schestowitz	Strap Intel into that rocket	May 19 02:14
oiaohm	Sean the speed compare before schestowitz. It will just keep on getting faster.	May 19 02:14
schestowitz	Put Ballmer in the cockpit	May 19 02:14
tacone	seems like MS just sent a PR to mars to talk about patents.	May 19 02:14
DaemonFC	Why is wordpress still sending me notifications to my Gmail box?	May 19 02:15
DaemonFC	ugggh	May 19 02:15
schestowitz	tacone: did you see their latest PR on patents?	May 19 02:18
schestowitz	Linux Foundation plays along. Yuck	May 19 02:18
schestowitz	And there's another thing	May 19 02:18
schestowitz	Which I'll post about tomorro	May 19 02:18
schestowitz	Myhrvold (the MS troll) pays feds to bat for sw pats, apparently	May 19 02:19
schestowitz	Disgusting	May 19 02:19
tacone	no	May 19 02:20
tacone	no	May 19 02:20
tacone	urgh	May 19 02:20
tacone	patents should be like bitches	May 19 02:21
tacone	if you really go with them, at least hide it	May 19 02:21
tacone	times are gone when proprietary and exclusive were positive adjectives	May 19 02:22
DaemonFC	most companies use patents and copyrights	May 19 02:23
DaemonFC	I'm not arguing for the practice, but why do people defend Mozilla for it and go after Microsoft?	May 19 02:23
DaemonFC	or defend Google perhaps?	May 19 02:24
DaemonFC	seems like either of them could cause or has caused a lot of damage by throwing their weight around	May 19 02:24
DaemonFC	Mozilla is at that point now where they are so big that it wouldn't do anyone any good to fork their code anyway	May 19 02:25
tacone	patents are like nuclear weapons	May 19 02:25
tacone	if you have to seem good to people you can just say you're getting those to defend yourself.	May 19 02:25
DaemonFC	Mozilla controls where Gecko is going	May 19 02:26
DaemonFC	with or without source available	May 19 02:26
schestowitz	http://opendotdotdot.blogspot.com/2009/05/cctv-is-great-for-car-parks.html "One of the Great Lies of the Labour's surveillance society is that being watched - specifically by the greatest concentration of CCTV cameras in the world - makes us safer. Guess what - it doesn't.."	May 19 02:26
DaemonFC	having open source just means that they win and everyone else loses	May 19 02:26
DaemonFC	just like the same goes for MS and closed source	May 19 02:26
schestowitz	tacone: Transparently Wrong - http://bit.ly/2THilK the EU thinks Microsoft's "commercial interests" trump public interest #opensource http://twitter.com/glynmoody/statuses/1836721041	May 19 02:26
tacone	yeah, I saw the cwi article	May 19 02:27
DaemonFC	I've always just said when people ask me what I think about MSIE, that Microsoft should just buy Mozilla	May 19 02:27
tacone	err	May 19 02:27
tacone	cwuk	May 19 02:27
tacone	pretty cool	May 19 02:27
schestowitz	WHO Members Fail To Finish Pandemic Flu Preparations < http://www.ip-watch.org/weblog/2009/05/18/who-members-fail-to-finish-pandemic-flu-preparations/ >	May 19 02:27
DaemonFC	you know Microsoft has the cash to just buy Mozilla and close them	May 19 02:28
DaemonFC	what's stopping them?	May 19 02:28
schestowitz	Mozilla	May 19 02:28
DaemonFC	if I was MS I'd just buy Mozilla and Opera	May 19 02:28
tacone	is mozilla publicly traded ?	May 19 02:28
tacone	buy mozilla is not easy. google would step up	May 19 02:29
DaemonFC	no I don't believe it is	May 19 02:29
tacone	and then both would run right into anti trust.	May 19 02:29
DaemonFC	but there has to be someone to dump a pile of cash on	May 19 02:29
schestowitz	Is Danish Dying? < http://esr.ibiblio.org/?p=965 >	May 19 02:29
DaemonFC	or subvert it so that Firefox only works well on Windows	May 19 02:29
DaemonFC	Mission Accomplished	May 19 02:29
tacone	no it's not. if you try to buy something, another people will make a better offer	May 19 02:29
DaemonFC	they've already done that	May 19 02:29
schestowitz	Firefox can be forked to a lesser or greater degreee	May 19 02:30
tacone	and buying mozilla was no sense before, as it hadn't all that market share	May 19 02:30
tacone	now there's chromium. and safari for windows	May 19 02:30
schestowitz	Would be bloacked	May 19 02:30
schestowitz	Antitrust	May 19 02:30
schestowitz	*blocked	May 19 02:30
tacone	and it can be forked, right. but patents may prevent successful forking.	May 19 02:30
schestowitz	Old Software Hogs Energy < http://www.forbes.com/2009/05/15/software-energy-enterprise-technology-cio-network-software.html?feed=rss_technology >	May 19 02:30
DaemonFC	http://images4.wikia.nocookie.net/uncyclopedia/images/7/72/User_Account_Control.png	May 19 02:30
DaemonFC	:)	May 19 02:31
schestowitz	The other PR MS does today is to do with "interop"	May 19 02:34
schestowitz	Laws That Could Save Journalism < http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2009/05/15/AR2009051503000_pf.html > Some papers are better off dead. it's Darwinian.	May 19 02:34
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schestowitz	Harvard prof tells judge that P2P filesharing is "fair use" < http://arstechnica.com/tech-policy/news/2009/05/harvard-prof-tells-judge-that-p2p-filesharing-is-fair-use.ars >	May 19 02:38
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schestowitz	DaemonFC: you're on usenet	May 19 02:47
schestowitz	http://groups.google.com/group/comp.os.linux.advocacy/browse_thread/thread/3ed0feebcae0f88f#	May 19 02:48
tacone	this post is too long. too much research. not my stuff :(	May 19 02:54
tacone	disconnecting for a while. see you later if you're not asleep	May 19 02:55
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schestowitz	gn	May 19 03:10
schestowitz	When tessier gets back we'll swap DBs	May 19 03:10
DaemonFC	schestowitz: I just wrote about Product Activation :P	May 19 03:14
DaemonFC	http://izanbardprince.wordpress.com/2009/05/19/product-activation-the-proof-of-what-microsoft-is-doing-is-in-what-it-does/	May 19 03:14
DaemonFC	In effect, by having a documented system to bypass Product Activation that is moderately risky (think coat hanger abortion) to do at home, but scales well to millions of systems (this is how it was designed to work), Microsoft has effectively admitted that they will never stop these so-called “mass-counterfeiters” and has declared war lamer-by-lamer who tries to casually copy their Windows...	May 19 03:17
DaemonFC	...disc to use on a spare PC.	May 19 03:17
DaemonFC	Method 2 essentially becomes “Why use the front door which is barricaded and garrisoned, when Microsoft has kindly left the service entrance unlocked and unguarded?”	May 19 03:17
DaemonFC	:)	May 19 03:17
DaemonFC	Product Activation is therefore a way to get blood out of a turnip by making sure that you don’t buy that $300 Vista disc and dare to use it on two PCs, and it’s really pathetic that instead of making Windows better so that more people want to use it or think it’s worth paying for, Microsoft has hired a team to effectively “crack down on insurgents in door to door raids”.	May 19 03:18
DaemonFC	their latest "exploit detector" is a nag screen	May 19 03:22
DaemonFC	it doesn't turn off any Vista features	May 19 03:22
DaemonFC	not even Aero Glass	May 19 03:22
DaemonFC	Ithink they're trying to pump Vista for a few more license sales	May 19 03:23
DaemonFC	right before Windows 7 comes out	May 19 03:24
DaemonFC	lol	May 19 03:24
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tacone	back again	May 19 03:29
DaemonFC	http://blogs.msdn.com/wga/archive/2009/05/01/windows-7-rc-torrent-files-infected-with-trojan.aspx	May 19 03:31
DaemonFC	lmao	May 19 03:31
tacone	rofl-copter	May 19 03:33
DaemonFC	Microsoft releases this stuff	May 19 03:35
DaemonFC	then the strain on their server causes them to be unresponsive	May 19 03:35
DaemonFC	and they won't release an official torrent for political reasons	May 19 03:35
DaemonFC	so people go to The Pirate Bay	May 19 03:35
DaemonFC	what the hell do they expect?	May 19 03:35
DaemonFC	Microsoft could save a lot of money in bandwidth by using peer to peer to distribute their downloads	May 19 03:36
DaemonFC	they don't do it because they don't want people to know what bittorrent or whatever is	May 19 03:36
DaemonFC	so they pretend like it doesn't exist	May 19 03:37
DaemonFC	and because all of a sudden they would have "legitimized" a P2P app	May 19 03:37
DaemonFC	and subverted their partners fights against protocols :)	May 19 03:37
DaemonFC	http://www.olpcnews.com/software/windows/nobody_buying_windows_xo_laptops.html	May 19 03:44
DaemonFC	yay	May 19 03:45
tacone	that's just not part of their corporate culture	May 19 03:45
tacone	even communities weren't. it took a while for them to understand they needed some.	May 19 03:45
DaemonFC	if I was in charge of Microsoft there'd be some huge changes	May 19 03:45
DaemonFC	:)	May 19 03:45
DaemonFC	not necessarily jsut out of the goodness of my heart	May 19 03:46
DaemonFC	but because some of this clamp down blame the user shit is just bad business	May 19 03:46
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DaemonFC	hmmm	May 19 03:49
DaemonFC	even if you can make a contrived version of XP that runs on the XO laptop	May 19 03:49
oiaohm	Question is how much more staff will MS bleed before they wake up its not just the down turn why they are in trouble.	May 19 03:49
DaemonFC	there's no upgrade patch	May 19 03:49
DaemonFC	can you see them fucking with Windows 7 to get it to run on that?	May 19 03:50
DaemonFC	roflcopter :P	May 19 03:50
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oiaohm	XP on XO laptop was going to be giving to the countries for nothing.	May 19 03:50
DaemonFC	yeah	May 19 03:50
oiaohm	So its not a price thing.	May 19 03:50
DaemonFC	more than what it's worth	May 19 03:50
DaemonFC	good riddance	May 19 03:50
DaemonFC	no	May 19 03:50
DaemonFC	I mean......	May 19 03:50
DaemonFC	could you see Microsoft making a version of WINDOWS SEVEN	May 19 03:50
DaemonFC	for the thing?	May 19 03:50
oiaohm	Windows Seven Starter	May 19 03:51
DaemonFC	do you think it would be possible to reduce Windows 7 in size to make it 20 times smaller	May 19 03:51
oiaohm	Is ment to be for that market.	May 19 03:51
DaemonFC	so that it would work?	May 19 03:51
oiaohm	3 applications at a time limit.	May 19 03:51
DaemonFC	fuck that	May 19 03:51
tacone	that's a nice way to limit hardware requirements also	May 19 03:51
DaemonFC	try that on Americans, yeah, it's not going to fly	May 19 03:52
DaemonFC	trust me	May 19 03:52
oiaohm	They are also trying to get netbook makers to buy it.	May 19 03:52
DaemonFC	that's what I mean	May 19 03:52
DaemonFC	that's crippleware	May 19 03:52
DaemonFC	even on low end hardware	May 19 03:52
oiaohm	MS is going bonkers.	May 19 03:52
DaemonFC	3 apps at a time my ass	May 19 03:52
tacone	it's that free ?	May 19 03:52
oiaohm	Yep.	May 19 03:52
DaemonFC	I have 9 apps open right now	May 19 03:52
oiaohm	Problem for dell and the like.	May 19 03:53
oiaohm	There need more than 3 apps for there offset crap.	May 19 03:53
DaemonFC	How about they put it on a diet	May 19 03:53
tacone	that will bring interesting developments	May 19 03:53
DaemonFC	and make something that works well?	May 19 03:53
tacone	they'll force oem to offer it	May 19 03:53
tacone	stupid customers will buy the windows version	May 19 03:53
DaemonFC	yeah, watch the returns skyrocket	May 19 03:53
DaemonFC	when people get the CLOSE YOUR APPS bullshit	May 19 03:54
oiaohm	Funny thing is a item like colinux appears as 1 app.	May 19 03:54
tacone	and then the show begins	May 19 03:54
tacone	that will be workarounded in a snap.	May 19 03:54
oiaohm	Problem is lot of netbook OEMs dont' want to sell.	May 19 03:54
DaemonFC	you really shouldn't have to patch over system files	May 19 03:54
oiaohm	And basically are preparid to say to MS stuff off.	May 19 03:54
DaemonFC	to uncripple the OS	May 19 03:54
DaemonFC	:D	May 19 03:54
oiaohm	We don't need it and will use Linux.	May 19 03:55
oiaohm	Users can buy windows full independant if they like.	May 19 03:55
tacone	that will just get OEM even more angry at microsoft	May 19 03:55
DaemonFC	I upgraded my mom's Garmin GPS unit	May 19 03:55
oiaohm	Mind you bios makers are also pissed with MS.	May 19 03:55
DaemonFC	cause she was going to replace it with a TomTom	May 19 03:55
DaemonFC	:P	May 19 03:55
DaemonFC	I noticed Garmin uses FAT32	May 19 03:56
oiaohm	We are heading into a major show down.	May 19 03:56
DaemonFC	but it runs Linux	May 19 03:56
oiaohm	OEM BIOS makers and MS.	May 19 03:56
oiaohm	Lot of BIOS makers are pissed with MS for providing a defective test suit so they produced BIOS that caused windows computers to play up.	May 19 03:57
oiaohm	So had to put out firmware updates.	May 19 03:58
oiaohm	Basically MS is pissing off everyone important to there existance	May 19 03:58
tacone	since it controls about all the ecosystem, i'd say it's normal	May 19 03:59
DaemonFC	schestowitz: I noticed that bug in earlier leaked builds	May 19 04:00
DaemonFC	I didn't report it though	May 19 04:00
oiaohm	They have not got it yet tacone they don't any more.	May 19 04:00
DaemonFC	http://www.computerworld.com/action/article.do?command=viewArticleBasic&taxonomyName=software_development&articleId=9132738&taxonomyId=63&intsrc=kc_top	May 19 04:00
tacone	yes they do. not completely of course	May 19 04:01
tacone	but they can successfully racket almost everyone.	May 19 04:01
tacone	that's why hardware companies don't love microsoft	May 19 04:01
tacone	if you loose friendship with microsoft you loose discounts on Windows OEM	May 19 04:02
tacone	therefore you loose competitivity and price margins	May 19 04:02
DaemonFC	http://www.reuters.com/article/topNews/idUSTRE54I06W20090519	May 19 04:02
DaemonFC	Go Obama!	May 19 04:02
DaemonFC	yay	May 19 04:02
DaemonFC	hehe	May 19 04:02
tacone	not to talk about Intel marriage	May 19 04:02
tacone	less fuel, less wars. at least a bit	May 19 04:03
DaemonFC	"Convenient though it would be if it were true, Mozilla is not big because it's full of useless crap. Mozilla is big because your needs are big. Your needs are big because the Internet is big. There are lots of small, lean web browsers out there that, incidentally, do almost nothing useful. If that's what you need, you've got options... "	May 19 04:06
DaemonFC	Jamie awinski	May 19 04:06
DaemonFC	:D	May 19 04:06
DaemonFC	*Zawinski	May 19 04:06
tacone	pretty nice	May 19 04:07
DaemonFC	I miss the Netscape browsers	May 19 04:08
DaemonFC	the ones based on Mozilla Suite	May 19 04:08
DaemonFC	Unfortunately AOL jettisoned them since they couldn't find a way to make it profitable	May 19 04:09
DaemonFC	and turned netscape.com into a spam portal	May 19 04:09
DaemonFC	:D	May 19 04:09
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DaemonFC	at least they haven't completely ruined Winamp yet	May 19 04:10
DaemonFC	you can still install a "Lite version" if you want	May 19 04:10
twitter	or you could run one of KDE's media players	May 19 04:10
twitter	noatun in nice	May 19 04:11
twitter	or was	May 19 04:11
twitter	I have not used it in a while	May 19 04:11
DaemonFC	Winamp is a good piece of software, it spawned a bunch of imitators on Linux	May 19 04:11
DaemonFC	unfortunately XMMS was the only one that came close to working right	May 19 04:11
*DaemonFC groans		May 19 04:11
twitter	at what?	May 19 04:11
twitter	Vista blow up agian?	May 19 04:12
DaemonFC	Audacious doesn't support the new skins, it can't play video, and the presets are messed up	May 19 04:12
DaemonFC	it just feels kind of tacky	May 19 04:12
twitter	I hope you have skinned yourself out of the shiny black of Vista.	May 19 04:13
twitter	talk about tacky	May 19 04:13
DaemonFC	http://img211.imageshack.us/img211/4830/84641780.png	May 19 04:17
DaemonFC	:)	May 19 04:17
tacone	running vista ? gosh	May 19 04:19
tacone	that's something even me avoids	May 19 04:19
twitter	Nice background. Vista's transparency has almost caught up to E16 standards.	May 19 04:20
tacone	agggh i want to get this post out !	May 19 04:20
tacone	too much work	May 19 04:20
twitter	That black bar is some ugly though.	May 19 04:21
DaemonFC	http://themes.mozdev.org/themes/ie.html#	May 19 04:21
DaemonFC	?	May 19 04:21
DaemonFC	black bar?	May 19 04:21
twitter	The windows bar at the bottom	May 19 04:21
DaemonFC	what color would you prefer?	May 19 04:21
DaemonFC	:D	May 19 04:21
twitter	blue steel with transparency.	May 19 04:22
twitter	basically what you have for the rest of your stuff.	May 19 04:22
twitter	with a little more opacity	May 19 04:22
DaemonFC	do you have a color mixor setting?	May 19 04:22
twitter	no, I just use a theme I like and give it a level of transparency.	May 19 04:23
twitter	If I wanted to, I could modify the widgets, but that's too much effort for me.	May 19 04:23
twitter	Desktop icons also bug me but at least that's not forced on you ... yet.	May 19 04:25
DaemonFC	I can mix colors	May 19 04:25
twitter	KDE's kicker does that, I think.	May 19 04:25
DaemonFC	I don't know what to mix to get the Mozilla blue/green though	May 19 04:26
twitter	I have not played with it in a while. I know Gnome's menu bar works that way but I'm not sure how to run it with E16	May 19 04:26
twitter	I could probably make a script to change my colors. Use image magic to mix them and then restart E16.	May 19 04:27
twitter	Or just change themes.	May 19 04:28
DaemonFC	hmmm	May 19 04:28
DaemonFC	I made Windows 1.0 green	May 19 04:28
DaemonFC	:D	May 19 04:28
twitter	That would be interesting, but I mainly change colors by changing my background.	May 19 04:28
twitter	the color shows through the window decoration	May 19 04:28
tacone	DaemonFC: make it brown	May 19 04:30
twitter	One thing I really hate about Windows's GUI is the task bar.	May 19 04:30
twitter	I remove that from Kicker.	May 19 04:30
tacone	i can say to have never used vista for real	May 19 04:31
twitter	E16's icon box is much nicer	May 19 04:31
tacone	i just burned an ubuntu iso with it. and used i tunes to activate my iphone.	May 19 04:31
tacone	the burning experience was wonderful.	May 19 04:31
tacone	after i installed itunes i got an insane percentage of bsod	May 19 04:32
twitter	sad	May 19 04:32
twitter	I'd read that Vista is like that with itunes	May 19 04:32
twitter	has been all along.	May 19 04:32
tacone	well	May 19 04:32
tacone	it took just one boot to burn the ubuntu iso	May 19 04:33
twitter	that's lucky	May 19 04:33
tacone	so, it didn't have the time to bsod perhaps	May 19 04:33
twitter	Windows is not so good at burning iso in genreal	May 19 04:33
tacone	yeah, right at the first strike !	May 19 04:33
tacone	then i didn't booted windows for months. and never a problem :)	May 19 04:33
tacone	when i got the iphone, though, i was forced to use it to activate the shit device.	May 19 04:34
twitter	Windows, is like this http://content.hccfl.edu/facultyinfo/ckasper/images/05D1B88885BC4654AC52868C61FC2277.jpg	May 19 04:34
twitter	I'm not sure why people do it, but they say it's great and every business needs something inside it.	May 19 04:34
tacone	nice	May 19 04:34
twitter	my wife found it.	May 19 04:35
twitter	I laughed and laughed	May 19 04:35
twitter	I'm not sure DeamonFC has ever run GNU/Linux for real.	May 19 04:36
twitter	How about it FC, what's the longest you've used a GNU/Linux system?	May 19 04:37
DaemonFC	couple years	May 19 04:37
twitter	what did you use it for?	May 19 04:37
DaemonFC	general purpose	May 19 04:37
twitter	The best things to use it for are email, web browsing and file archiving.	May 19 04:38
twitter	GNU/Linux file systems are reliable and the networking is excellent. It's a safe place for email and things you want to keep.	May 19 04:39
twitter	What distro did you use?	May 19 04:39
DaemonFC	lmao	May 19 04:39
DaemonFC	unless you pull the plug	May 19 04:39
DaemonFC	or the power gets knocked out	May 19 04:39
DaemonFC	then any decently performing file system will eat babies	May 19 04:39
twitter	ext3 is journaling, so you can pull the plug	May 19 04:39
twitter	and performance is not bad	May 19 04:40
DaemonFC	like I said, if you want decent performance you either need to put all your fucking data in Oracle (Which defeats the point) or buy a UPS	May 19 04:40
oiaohm	ext3 journaling is not that bad.	May 19 04:41
twitter	but the thing to aim for is reliability, you can get performance elsewhere and save the results on a slower, stable system.	May 19 04:41
oiaohm	I have killed windows worse with ntfs and powerfailure.	May 19 04:41
DaemonFC	which version of NTFS?	May 19 04:41
DaemonFC	Vista has self healing NTFS	May 19 04:41
DaemonFC	XP does not	May 19 04:41
twitter	so tell me about the lmao distro	May 19 04:41
oiaohm	XP sp3	May 19 04:41
oiaohm	And Vista new self healing.	May 19 04:42
oiaohm	It not flawless.	May 19 04:42
DaemonFC	Vista only locks the files where it is repairing the fs	May 19 04:42
DaemonFC	Linux locks out the whole file system	May 19 04:42
twitter	about time, but I'm not sure how they can take care of ntfs metadata	May 19 04:42
DaemonFC	til it's done	May 19 04:42
DaemonFC	THEN you may mount it	May 19 04:42
DaemonFC	:)	May 19 04:42
oiaohm	So never running ext3 journal.	May 19 04:42
twitter	anyway. I have not lost a file in 10 years using ext2 and ext3	May 19 04:42
DaemonFC	file system recovery is probably the most irritating part of a Linux file system	May 19 04:42
twitter	even with hard drive failures	May 19 04:43
DaemonFC	either you get a fast fsck and your file system is still corrupted	May 19 04:43
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oiaohm	ext3 journal acts like Vista selfheal.	May 19 04:43
DaemonFC	or you get the entire volume locked	May 19 04:43
DaemonFC	for 3 hours	May 19 04:43
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twitter	you are not listening FC	May 19 04:43
oiaohm	You don't get volume locking.	May 19 04:43
DaemonFC	and you choose between that	May 19 04:43
oiaohm	You have options.	May 19 04:43
oiaohm	Most people chose distribution ext3 defualt.	May 19 04:43
twitter	ext3 journal recovery is reasonably fast.	May 19 04:43
oiaohm	Faster read speed.	May 19 04:44
DaemonFC	yes, XFS and Ext4 a are clean fsck on a corrupt file system	May 19 04:44
oiaohm	Slow recovery in crash.	May 19 04:44
twitter	it's not an fsck	May 19 04:44
tacone	is the novell deal perpetual ?	May 19 04:44
DaemonFC	and Ext2 and 3 are "locks the partition" til it finishes repairing	May 19 04:44
tacone	guess not.	May 19 04:44
oiaohm	Wrong.	May 19 04:44
twitter	is M$ perpetual	May 19 04:44
twitter	I don't think so	May 19 04:44
tacone	5 years ?	May 19 04:44
oiaohm	Journal mode it does not lock DaemonFC	May 19 04:44
twitter	so the deal won't last more than a couple of years	May 19 04:44
oiaohm	It does repair while in operation.	May 19 04:44
twitter	works for me	May 19 04:44
oiaohm	Selection of mode DaemonFC	May 19 04:45
twitter	Ahhh http://img164.imageshack.us/img164/2271/motivator4237759fo7.jpg	May 19 04:45
DaemonFC	every file system is it's own bag of worms	May 19 04:45
oiaohm	Ext3 is about 4 different filesystem	May 19 04:45
DaemonFC	but I can't help but wonder why Linux has like umpteen million file systems	May 19 04:45
oiaohm	With the same disk storage patent.	May 19 04:45
DaemonFC	and all of them have recovery or fsck problems	May 19 04:45
oiaohm	No	May 19 04:45
twitter	gnu/linux reads almost everyone else's file systems	May 19 04:46
twitter	that's a feature	May 19 04:46
oiaohm	Not all of them have recovery and fsck problems.	May 19 04:46
DaemonFC	Ext4 actually scares me much worse than NTFS	May 19 04:46
twitter	it took a lot of work too, and no they don't all recover either	May 19 04:46
oiaohm	You can choose with a lot of them Like ext3 journal.	May 19 04:46
oiaohm	If you need to run fsck or not.	May 19 04:46
oiaohm	All other ext3 mode you have to run fsck.	May 19 04:46
twitter	ext3 is good for what gnu/linux is good for	May 19 04:46
oiaohm	ext3 journal no need.	May 19 04:46
oiaohm	It done as part of filesystem operation.	May 19 04:47
twitter	fsck does not hurt every now and then	May 19 04:47
oiaohm	Ext4 also has a option like that.	May 19 04:47
DaemonFC	if you get a modern file system on Linux, it becomes unrecoverable	May 19 04:47
DaemonFC	by modern I mean things like Extents	May 19 04:47
DaemonFC	NTFS has had that for years and never given me this kind of grief	May 19 04:47
twitter	Vista is not recoverable	May 19 04:47
twitter	just use bit rotter	May 19 04:47
twitter	locker	May 19 04:47
DaemonFC	missing my point	May 19 04:47
oiaohm	You are running with distrobution defaults.	May 19 04:47
DaemonFC	why does no Linux file system heal itself	May 19 04:47
oiaohm	Wrong.	May 19 04:48
DaemonFC	without fucking around with the user abuse	May 19 04:48
DaemonFC	?	May 19 04:48
oiaohm	Ext3 journal mode does self heal.	May 19 04:48
twitter	ext2 and 3 both have self healing features.	May 19 04:48
DaemonFC	like I said, it's a compromise	May 19 04:48
oiaohm	Catch is most distributions don't enable it.	May 19 04:48
DaemonFC	you have to forsake advanced features	May 19 04:48
DaemonFC	for recoverability	May 19 04:48
twitter	ext2 has fragmentation resistance	May 19 04:48
twitter	ext3	May 19 04:48
oiaohm	Instead go for speed.	May 19 04:48
twitter	journal prevents data loss	May 19 04:48
DaemonFC	no, the journal does not prevent data loss	May 19 04:49
DaemonFC	it keeps the colume consistent	May 19 04:49
DaemonFC	not the same thing	May 19 04:49
DaemonFC	*volume	May 19 04:49
oiaohm	Prevent volume damage.	May 19 04:49
oiaohm	The things fsck are scanning for.	May 19 04:49
twitter	I suppose FC will stick with super dependable Vista	May 19 04:49
twitter	lol	May 19 04:49
oiaohm	That take masivee amount of time.	May 19 04:49
DaemonFC	look, I'm not going to say any system doesn't have problems	May 19 04:50
DaemonFC	because they all suck at something	May 19 04:50
oiaohm	NTFS has a few nasty filesystem glitchs.	May 19 04:50
twitter	I just wondered what you used and where you got all your crazy ideas	May 19 04:50
oiaohm	Like turn files to 0 size.	May 19 04:50
DaemonFC	but the file system is the worst possible single point of failure	May 19 04:50
DaemonFC	especially when like Ext4, your data may have never been committed	May 19 04:50
DaemonFC	in the first place	May 19 04:50
oiaohm	Ext4 added background defraging.	May 19 04:50
oiaohm	It will have better committment processes.	May 19 04:51
oiaohm	There was a glitch.	May 19 04:51
DaemonFC	hehe	May 19 04:51
oiaohm	People who use a filesystem before it real world tested are nuts.	May 19 04:51
DaemonFC	Ext4 is kind of like the Kite Eating Tree	May 19 04:51
twitter	FC get's his crazy ideas from Steve Ballmer.	May 19 04:51
DaemonFC	if the power goes out, MUNCH MUNCH MUNCH goes your user folder	May 19 04:51
oiaohm	You do know that the power to Munch Munch Munhc is in alightment with NTFS operation.	May 19 04:52
DaemonFC	well, the guy behind Ext4 scares the shit out of me	May 19 04:52
DaemonFC	by recommending a binary registry	May 19 04:52
DaemonFC	ala Windows	May 19 04:52
DaemonFC	to compensate for Ext4 being retarded	May 19 04:52
oiaohm	Only realy it was displayed is Ext4 extended the sync time.	May 19 04:52
oiaohm	If you extend the sync time on NTFS you will have as big as mess.	May 19 04:53
DaemonFC	no, because Windows has the registry	May 19 04:53
DaemonFC	which makes it more reliable	May 19 04:53
DaemonFC	just ask Ted Tso	May 19 04:53
DaemonFC	:P	May 19 04:53
oiaohm	registry can disappear	May 19 04:53
oiaohm	with NTFS extended sync time.	May 19 04:53
DaemonFC	nuh uh	May 19 04:53
DaemonFC	Ted Tso would never lie	May 19 04:53
oiaohm	I mean completely.	May 19 04:53
DaemonFC	heresy!	May 19 04:53
DaemonFC	:)	May 19 04:53
oiaohm	NTFS operation problem.	May 19 04:53
oiaohm	It clears meta data.	May 19 04:54
DaemonFC	once you have a dumping ground in binary database format	May 19 04:54
oiaohm	So everything in a directory can disappear.	May 19 04:54
DaemonFC	every file system fuckup goes right away	May 19 04:54
DaemonFC	just ask Ted Tso	May 19 04:54
DaemonFC	;)	May 19 04:54
twitter	Registry makes windows reliable?	May 19 04:54
oiaohm	Registy is a file.	May 19 04:54
twitter	dude, this place stinks	May 19 04:54
oiaohm	When files can disappear	May 19 04:54
DaemonFC	I'm being sarcastic	May 19 04:54
tacone	going offline	May 19 04:54
tacone	bb	May 19 04:54
DaemonFC	:)	May 19 04:54
twitter	bb	May 19 04:54
oiaohm	Due to opertaional error.	May 19 04:54
oiaohm	You are screwed.	May 19 04:54
oiaohm	Ext4 basically did a alteration to come into alightment with posix designed filesystems.	May 19 04:55
oiaohm	That NTFS has.	May 19 04:55
oiaohm	That turned out to be stupid on a scale you that was never even considered.	May 19 04:56
DaemonFC	even Linus Torvalds hasn't ever come out and said Windows sucks full stop	May 19 04:56
DaemonFC	:)	May 19 04:56
DaemonFC	http://img341.imageshack.us/img341/6325/31349432.png	May 19 04:56
twitter	Linus does not waste a lot of words on the obvious.	May 19 04:56
oiaohm	Problem here lot of people attack Linux filesystems and forget NTFS and Linux filesystems have a common history point.	May 19 04:56
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oiaohm	VMS filesystems were based of posix design ideas.	May 19 04:57
DaemonFC	Torvalds has gona a lot harder on the Mac	May 19 04:57
DaemonFC	than he has on Windows	May 19 04:57
DaemonFC	"On the other hand, (I've found) OS X in some ways is actually worse than Windows to program for. Their file system is complete and utter crap, which is scary."	May 19 04:58
DaemonFC	-Linus Torvalds	May 19 04:58
oiaohm	I agree on that filesystem common.	May 19 04:58
oiaohm	OS X filesystem is a hybred mess.	May 19 04:58
oiaohm	It cannot make up what it wants to be.	May 19 04:58
DaemonFC	As long as Windows shields the user from the underpinnings of the system it will have a market	May 19 04:59
DaemonFC	As long as Mac shields the user from the underpinnings of the system it will have a market	May 19 04:59
twitter	ha ha	May 19 04:59
DaemonFC	As long as Linux forces the user to deal with the underpinnings of the system it will have a niche market	May 19 04:59
oiaohm	and that is reducing.	May 19 04:59
DaemonFC	normal human beings don't want to worry about how to install software	May 19 05:00
twitter	I like your Ivana Humpalot wallpaper. It's kind of a rip off of Stirling's Draka world though.	May 19 05:00
DaemonFC	they don't want to pick from 6 file systems	May 19 05:00
DaemonFC	They want to plug in devices and have the OS report that it installed drivers	May 19 05:01
DaemonFC	not that it doesn't know what you plugged in	May 19 05:01
twitter	Do windows users also have trouble picking from more than 5 versions or three wallpapers?	May 19 05:01
oiaohm	Users don't want to have to defrag either DaemonFC	May 19 05:01
DaemonFC	Windows defragments itself	May 19 05:01
oiaohm	Or clean up OS messes to get performance.	May 19 05:01
DaemonFC	in the background	May 19 05:01
twitter	or run anti-virus	May 19 05:01
twitter	or have nasty pop ups	May 19 05:02
oiaohm	No OS that current exists is truly userfriendly.	May 19 05:02
twitter	or have their web surfing crawl to a standstill because they played a CD	May 19 05:02
oiaohm	It all decide how you want your arms and legs removed.	May 19 05:02
twitter	DRM is truly hostile	May 19 05:02
twitter	free software lacks that direct confrontation	May 19 05:02
oiaohm	Linux is better than windows in some areas worse in others.	May 19 05:03
twitter	it's problem, according to FC, is an embarasment of riches	May 19 05:03
twitter	too many good things	May 19 05:03
twitter	ha ha	May 19 05:03
oiaohm	Just like Mac is better in some area and worse in others.	May 19 05:03
oiaohm	No OS has it right.	May 19 05:03
oiaohm	To be correct no platform has it right.	May 19 05:04
twitter	You can make free software just right for you.	May 19 05:04
twitter	It would just take too much time.	May 19 05:04
oiaohm	The problem.	May 19 05:04
oiaohm	Needs to be faster to get to just right.	May 19 05:04
twitter	you can't make Windows just right, no matter how much time and help you got.	May 19 05:04
twitter	My system is fast.	May 19 05:05
twitter	even though it's a dinky PIII	May 19 05:05
oiaohm	Ie time taken not speed.	May 19 05:05
oiaohm	to get to that point.	May 19 05:05
oiaohm	Ie simpler to install drivers .....	May 19 05:05
twitter	free drivers are easy, they work or they are not there.	May 19 05:05
oiaohm	Better solution to that too.	May 19 05:06
twitter	very few have to be located and installed.	May 19 05:06
oiaohm	I wish backported drivers would work more.	May 19 05:06
twitter	most come with the kernel by default in good distributions	May 19 05:06
twitter	the driver solution is OEM cooperation and that's on the way	May 19 05:06
oiaohm	Its intergation and smoother in places Linux needs.	May 19 05:06
twitter	like what?	May 19 05:07
oiaohm	Of course they can be added.	May 19 05:07
twitter	KDE's control panel rocks	May 19 05:07
oiaohm	driver backport project goal is as new drivers become avalibed in Linux kernel they become accessable to the older kernels.	May 19 05:07
oiaohm	Without user having to change it.	May 19 05:07
twitter	that happens but changing kernels is trivial under Debian.	May 19 05:08
oiaohm	Ksplice one of there goals is to allow a in place kernel update.	May 19 05:08
twitter	it's just another package	May 19 05:08
oiaohm	So no stopping to allow more hardware support.	May 19 05:08
twitter	booting once a year is not such a big deal.	May 19 05:08
oiaohm	Just work away kernel updates then you have more hardware support.	May 19 05:08
oiaohm	Basically smoother.	May 19 05:09
twitter	It's a nice idea, but module support should give that to you.	May 19 05:09
oiaohm	zero reboots required to get there.	May 19 05:09
tessier	Is everything working on the site? schestowitz was looking for me earlier but I was out having dinner.	May 19 05:09
twitter	already	May 19 05:09
twitter	site looks good to me	May 19 05:09
twitter	I have not checked everything yet. I posted a comment this morning.	May 19 05:09
oiaohm	tessier: he was asking how to merge the old site data with current tessier.	May 19 05:10
oiaohm	basically twitter Linux has a decent distance to go before it is as smooth as it can be.	May 19 05:12
twitter	my system is like glass next to Windows, thanks	May 19 05:13
DaemonFC	heh	May 19 05:14
twitter	I'm not sure how it could be smoother. It updates from one release to the next flawlessly with only a network connection. It has never lost a file for me. What more could I want?	May 19 05:14
DaemonFC	John McCain's website removed all references to him running for President	May 19 05:14
DaemonFC	lmao	May 19 05:14
twitter	they are probably trying to change the numbers from 2008 to 2012 but their m$ script skills left them wanting.	May 19 05:15
DaemonFC	no	May 19 05:15
DaemonFC	it's turned into "Re-Elect Senator McCain in 2010" site	May 19 05:15
twitter	oh wait, that's right, they use gnu/linux for email and other service	May 19 05:15
DaemonFC	no	May 19 05:15
DaemonFC	his site is on Windows 2000	May 19 05:15
twitter	oh yes they did	May 19 05:15
DaemonFC	the RNC uses Windows 2003	May 19 05:16
DaemonFC	http://searchdns.netcraft.com/?position=limited&host=johnmccain.com	May 19 05:16
twitter	GWB was an extensive gnu/linux user for his "personal" mail	May 19 05:16
DaemonFC	heh	May 19 05:16
DaemonFC	www.johnmccain.com Site Report may 1998 smartech corporation windows server 2003	May 19 05:16
DaemonFC	may 1998 was First Seen	May 19 05:16
twitter	you are confusing the public facing server with what they use internally	May 19 05:16
twitter	they had an official email server, Windows, which lost all their mail	May 19 05:17
twitter	and they had a private email server that ran free software	May 19 05:17
DaemonFC	http://toolbar.netcraft.com/site_report?url=http://www.rnc.org	May 19 05:17
twitter	the guy who ran it died	May 19 05:17
DaemonFC	Windows Server 2003Microsoft-IIS/6.0	May 19 05:17
twitter	in a mysterious plane crash	May 19 05:17
twitter	don't be dense, FC.	May 19 05:18
DaemonFC	http://toolbar.netcraft.com/site_report?url=barackobama.com	May 19 05:18
DaemonFC	FreeBSDApache/2.2.10	May 19 05:18
DaemonFC	hehe	May 19 05:18
DaemonFC	http://toolbar.netcraft.com/site_report?url=whitehouse.gov	May 19 05:18
DaemonFC	LinuxAkamaiGHost	May 19 05:18
DaemonFC	http://toolbar.netcraft.com/site_report?url=nsa.gov	May 19 05:19
DaemonFC	Windows Server 2003unknown	May 19 05:19
DaemonFC	http://toolbar.netcraft.com/site_report?url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.fbi.gov%2F	May 19 05:20
DaemonFC	LinuxApache	May 19 05:20
DaemonFC	meh, they're all used	May 19 05:20
DaemonFC	I wonder if the NSA website is really useing Windows 2003	May 19 05:21
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twitter	they are not, it's a lie	May 19 05:21
twitter	http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bush_White_House_e-mail_controversy	May 19 05:22
twitter	see gwb43.com	May 19 05:22
DaemonFC	http://uptime.netcraft.com/up/today/top.avg.html	May 19 05:23
DaemonFC	Microsoft gets highest uptimes	May 19 05:23
twitter	yeah!	May 19 05:23
twitter	black is white	May 19 05:23
DaemonFC	the best uptimes go to Windows 2000	May 19 05:23
DaemonFC	and Windows 2003	May 19 05:23
twitter	must be the nsa server, for some reason it never goes down....	May 19 05:24
tacone	does bsod count as uptime ?	May 19 05:24
oiaohm	That changes.	May 19 05:24
twitter	M$ is fudging uptime in various ways	May 19 05:24
twitter	we all know that 60 day uptimes are "insane" Steve Ballmer said so.	May 19 05:25
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DaemonFC	Microsoft is using Windows 2003	May 19 05:25
DaemonFC	:)	May 19 05:25
twitter	dog food	May 19 05:25
DaemonFC	well it's funny	May 19 05:26
DaemonFC	cause Server 2008 is out	May 19 05:26
twitter	but if they take it down, they will ruinz their uptimez	May 19 05:26
twitter	noes	May 19 05:26
DaemonFC	probably using Windows 2003 cause it's lighter on resources and they've already patched most of the security problems	May 19 05:27
oiaohm	Uptime is also a really bad measure.	May 19 05:28
DaemonFC	current uptime for their server is 50 days	May 19 05:28
DaemonFC	that's not terrible	May 19 05:28
oiaohm	Linux uptime counter loops sooner than Windows does.	May 19 05:28
incoherence	so is this the source of all anti-mono bitterness on the intarwubz?	May 19 05:28
oiaohm	So even that Linux does not reboot.	May 19 05:28
incoherence	i hope so - i had @rms on twitter until i got banned	May 19 05:28
oiaohm	It gets counted as such.	May 19 05:28
incoherence	for trolling the gnome/mono crowd.	May 19 05:29
twitter	bitterness is a M$ TM	May 19 05:29
DaemonFC	http://news.netcraft.com/	May 19 05:29
DaemonFC	Most reliable in April was FreeBSD	May 19 05:29
DaemonFC	top two slots	May 19 05:29
DaemonFC	followed by Windows 2003	May 19 05:29
DaemonFC	then Linux	May 19 05:30
twitter	sure deamon, we all know how super reliable windows is	May 19 05:30
twitter	it's so super, it's above reliable	May 19 05:31
oiaohm	http://uptime.netcraft.com/up/today/requested.html You can pull all kinds of different numbers DaemonFC	May 19 05:31
oiaohm	How do you know the most reliable had to process any load.	May 19 05:31
twitter	because they were bank sites using bsd	May 19 05:31
twitter	that was before M$ took an interest in uptime	May 19 05:32
oiaohm	Still does not mean that it was major load.	May 19 05:32
DaemonFC	my bank uses Solaris 8	May 19 05:32
twitter	eh, working site	May 19 05:32
DaemonFC	:)	May 19 05:32
twitter	and you use Vista	May 19 05:32
twitter	what a great combination	May 19 05:33
twitter	twitter keeps his money under the mattress and lost in the couch	May 19 05:33
oiaohm	Anyone spot a problem in that requested page.	May 19 05:33
twitter	no, did not look	May 19 05:33
oiaohm	Microsoft.com is listed twice.	May 19 05:34
oiaohm	As 2 different OS's.	May 19 05:34
twitter	and you know that both of those machines are hidden behind a gnu/linux router, ha ha	May 19 05:35
oiaohm	http://uptime.netcraft.com/up/accuracy.html Read this page careful DaemonFC	May 19 05:36
oiaohm	Netcraft even open addmits its uptime numbers are bull.	May 19 05:36
twitter	yeah, people gamed them. Windows never did record things right	May 19 05:36
oiaohm	The Linux TCP stack uses the low 32 bits from the system uptime timer, and this timer, in recent kernel releases, runs at 250Hz. This means that the timer value wraps around to 0 after roughly 198 days. Although we could in theory attempt to compute the true uptime for OS's with this upper limit by monitoring for restarts at the expected time, we prefer not to do this as it can be error prone. << From netcraft	May 19 05:37
twitter	microsoft.com 45 days max, ha ha, even when they lie they suck.	May 19 05:38
oiaohm	So basically they have not a single clue about the uptime of Linux boxes.	May 19 05:38
twitter	well, not a clue beyond 198 days	May 19 05:39
twitter	I could have sworn that I had more than that once.	May 19 05:39
twitter	it was a miracle of electric company uptime more than mine	May 19 05:40
oiaohm	You see a lot of Linux with high reads of 197 and the like.	May 19 05:41
oiaohm	As there max.	May 19 05:41
oiaohm	With ksplice on kernels there is no reason to stop other than hardware breakage.	May 19 05:41
twitter	I'm usually limited by power uptime, or wanting to change something	May 19 05:42
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twitter	when I want to concentrate on work, the system does not get in my way	May 19 05:42
twitter	it stays up and keeps my place	May 19 05:43
twitter	LOL from today's BN, " The latest round of layoffs at Microsoft has taken a toll on Redmond’s security unit."	May 19 05:44
oiaohm	Really that is something schestowitz could pick on.	May 19 05:44
twitter	Is that the team that was job one.	May 19 05:45
oiaohm	How bull crap netcrafts numbers really are when you read the fine print.	May 19 05:45
twitter	that was going to eliminate spam	May 19 05:45
twitter	yeah, there's a story in fake M$ uptime. DeamonFC was confused, so others may be as well.	May 19 05:46
oiaohm	Like the don't measure anything running linux 2.6 or Freebsd 6 due to the fact you can change the clocking rate.	May 19 05:46
oiaohm	Uptime is a super rubber number.	May 19 05:47
oiaohm	Windows is even funnier.	May 19 05:47
oiaohm	After some crashes it will not reset the uptime.	May 19 05:47
oiaohm	So it will pay that it has not crashed.	May 19 05:48
twitter	why bother, they lie about everything else?	May 19 05:48
oiaohm	There are a lot who try to use netcraft number to defend there case.	May 19 05:49
oiaohm	Its black and white on there site that they are not measuing a whole stack of things.	May 19 05:49
oiaohm	We should call it highly bias reporting.	May 19 05:50
twitter	It's pretty obvious to most people who've run both systems which is more reliable.	May 19 05:52
oiaohm	Problem is it management that make the buying plans.	May 19 05:53
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*tessier makes a local mirror of CentOS 5.3		May 19 05:59
tessier	Sometime in the next few days we'll move bn off onto its own server.	May 19 05:59
tessier	Maybe even tomorrow depending on how fast this mirror downloads and how much time I have tomorrow.	May 19 05:59
DaemonFC	http://blogs.wsj.com/law/2009/04/09/microsoft-gets-slammed-in-yet-another-patent-suit/	May 19 06:00
DaemonFC	In what’s being billed as the fifth-largest patent award in history — and the second largest this year — a federal jury in Rhode Island on Wednesday ordered Microsoft to pay $388 million to Uniloc USA Inc. and Uniloc Singapore Private Ltd. for infringing a software patent.	May 19 06:00
*tessier eagerly awaits the patent armageddon when everyone sues and counter-sues everyone else		May 19 06:00
DaemonFC	Microsoft had infringed its patent through the “product activation” system which is installed in its Windows operating system and Office tools.	May 19 06:01
DaemonFC	On Wednesday, the jury found Microsoft willfully infringed the patent.	May 19 06:01
DaemonFC	Does anyone find this double ironic?	May 19 06:03
DaemonFC	1. They lost a patent suit brought on under patent laws they pushed for	May 19 06:03
DaemonFC	2. The infringing patent was relating to their copy protection system?	May 19 06:04
DaemonFC	lol	May 19 06:04
DaemonFC	if I was on the jury I would have pushed to award the maximum amount of possible damages to Uniloc	May 19 06:04
tacone	almost everyone found that double ironic	May 19 06:06
DaemonFC	another way to look at it is that this represents a tiny fraction of the money that Microsoft has made due to activation	May 19 06:07
DaemonFC	and the $388 million is probably less money than Uniloc would have charged to license it	May 19 06:07
DaemonFC	and Microsoft made them spend 6 years in court to get it	May 19 06:07
DaemonFC	http://www.wired.com/epicenter/2009/02/microsoft-shows/	May 19 06:08
DaemonFC	"The much-maligned version of Windows Media Player in Windows 7 is also slated for some improvements — perhaps the most useful is that WMP will filter out content that it can’t play. For example, Apple Lossless files don’t work in WMP, yet looking at the file in your library there is no indication that they won’t work."	May 19 06:08
DaemonFC	Gee, that's nice	May 19 06:09
DaemonFC	how about pulling in the fucking codec?	May 19 06:09
DaemonFC	:P	May 19 06:09
DaemonFC	ditch this shit	May 19 06:09
DaemonFC	what a joke	May 19 06:09
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twitter	M$ will helpfully label music from all other platforms, "broken"	May 19 06:30
twitter	ogg, flac, apple formats.	May 19 06:30
twitter	no restrictions, must be bad	May 19 06:30
DaemonFC	it plays MP3	May 19 06:31
twitter	In other news, music rental plans are still a failure http://www.businessweek.com/technology/ByteOfTheApple/blog/archives/2009/05/napster_gets_ch.html	May 19 06:31
DaemonFC	:)	May 19 06:31
twitter	woot mp3	May 19 06:31
twitter	Zuned out	May 19 06:32
twitter	I actually know someone who bought into a zune. His dad is some kind of non free software programmer. Poor guy swallowed the whole RIAA/M$ thing about piracy, hook line and sinker.	May 19 06:33
DaemonFC	I may buy a Zune	May 19 06:34
twitter	I did too, to an extent, which is why I get most of my music now from archive.org and other artists that share.	May 19 06:34
DaemonFC	they are practically giving them away for free	May 19 06:34
twitter	I'd hate to deprive the RIAA of revenue, so I don't listen to or buy their shit anymore.	May 19 06:35
twitter	ha ha	May 19 06:35
DaemonFC	I came across where MS is selling the 4 gig flash Zune for like $59	May 19 06:35
DaemonFC	the 4 gig flash ipod is still over $100	May 19 06:35
twitter	really?	May 19 06:35
DaemonFC	they both play my mp3s	May 19 06:35
DaemonFC	hell with it	May 19 06:35
DaemonFC	yeah	May 19 06:35
DaemonFC	they sell the shit at a loss	May 19 06:35
DaemonFC	so they can make money later	May 19 06:35
twitter	nah, you can get ilo for less	May 19 06:35
DaemonFC	only where it breaks down is when I put all my existing mp3s on it	May 19 06:36
DaemonFC	and buy no music from them	May 19 06:36
twitter	ilo is not a bad player, does you mp3s	May 19 06:36
DaemonFC	ilo is a cheap garbage walmart brand	May 19 06:36
twitter	yep	May 19 06:36
twitter	came with nice headphones too	May 19 06:36
DaemonFC	for an extra $10 I'll get the Zune over the no name	May 19 06:36
twitter	Zune is like cheap gargage walmart brand rebranded	May 19 06:37
DaemonFC	now if ipod was a little closer to the Zune price	May 19 06:37
DaemonFC	then I'd go for it	May 19 06:37
twitter	M$, a mark lower than Walmart	May 19 06:37
twitter	Zune is a rebranded gigabeat from toshiba or some other company	May 19 06:37
twitter	they all use the same guts	May 19 06:38
twitter	Chips from China	May 19 06:38
DaemonFC	yeah	May 19 06:38
DaemonFC	I have a Gigabeat-S	May 19 06:38
DaemonFC	not a bad player	May 19 06:38
twitter	so you don't need a zune	May 19 06:38
twitter	I've got an ilo. it was not bad	May 19 06:38
twitter	the only problem is that it did not play ogg	May 19 06:38
DaemonFC	I think the rebadged player actually sold WORSE as a Microsoft Zune	May 19 06:38
twitter	or flac	May 19 06:38
DaemonFC	LMAO	May 19 06:38
DaemonFC	it went from a "Toshiba? Do we know anything about their players?" to "WTF!? Microsoft? Fuck no!"	May 19 06:39
twitter	M$ made a deal with OEMs to not support ogg and apple formats	May 19 06:39
DaemonFC	Zune plays AAC	May 19 06:39
DaemonFC	You can play music from iTunes on a Zune	May 19 06:40
DaemonFC	as long as it's not DRM'd	May 19 06:40
twitter	at this point, M$ will do anything to keep from losing money	May 19 06:40
DaemonFC	I don't think it is anymore	May 19 06:40
twitter	but they still add drm, so it's not worth it	May 19 06:40
twitter	M$ stabbed the OEMs in the back when it completely redid it's craptacular "Plays for Sure" program, which was part of the original bribe to ignore free and apple formats.	May 19 06:41
twitter	they did this to support Zune.	May 19 06:42
twitter	that they also made Zune work with apple formats is yet another back stab.	May 19 06:42
DaemonFC	http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yZoGwZ9yiM0	May 19 06:42
DaemonFC	lmao	May 19 06:42
DaemonFC	that's the worst part of OEM Windows	May 19 06:44
DaemonFC	Microsoft doesn't support it	May 19 06:44
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DaemonFC	so you get to pay $30 an incident to Microsoft if you want help from them	May 19 06:44
DaemonFC	http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z_x2Np_ZLJ4	May 19 06:45
twitter	no, I think the part where the market was flooded with cheap players that did not use free formats was a big sting.	May 19 06:46
twitter	that hurt free software	May 19 06:46
DaemonFC	meh	May 19 06:46
DaemonFC	you can flash some of them	May 19 06:46
DaemonFC	with Rockbox	May 19 06:47
twitter	here we go, a link http://www.theregister.co.uk/2005/10/27/accidental_music_monopoly_bid/	May 19 06:48
twitter	So, at least five years ago, M$ squashed free formats on players	May 19 06:49
twitter	this was back when iRiver and others were moving to ogg vorbis because it cost them nothing and was better than non free formats	May 19 06:50
twitter	Rockbox is cool, as all free software is, but that does not undo M$'s blatant market manipulation	May 19 06:50
twitter	they made sure you could not get a decent music player out of the box.	May 19 06:51
twitter	the market ended up choked with cheapo players that did mp3 and wmp only.	May 19 06:51
twitter	It's amazing that Apple not only survived this attack but grew.	May 19 06:52
twitter	Only a few companies, like Trekstor, bothered to make players that did ogg.	May 19 06:52
twitter	So, outside of flashing your player, you were left with a small selection of expensive players.	May 19 06:53
twitter	If you wanted free formats, that is.	May 19 06:53
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twitter	The funny thing is that their greed so turned everyone off that they can't give Zunes away.	May 19 06:58
twitter	Massive money hole	May 19 06:58
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twitter	Greed digs massive money pit.	May 19 06:58
twitter	ha ha, gotta love Roughly Drafted http://www.roughlydrafted.com/2009/05/09/why-windows-7-is-microsofts-next-zune/#more-3521	May 19 07:02
twitter	the Zune tattoo dude	May 19 07:02
twitter	that story needs some digg love	May 19 07:07
kentma1	schestowitz: don't seem to have any News postings from 18/5, yesterday - were you not making any?	May 19 07:08
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oiaohm	twitter market bending has done for a very long time.	May 19 08:02
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DaemonFC	"PC makers are desperately trying to weather the storm of a brutally competitive market that is shrinking globally for the first time ever. They don’t want a fancy bunch of glitz that shows the power of GPUs, they want Windows XP as cheaply as possible so they can apply it to netbooks and sell something, anything, before they go out of business."	May 19 09:00
DaemonFC	lmao	May 19 09:00
MinceR	geekings	May 19 09:01
schestowitz	DaemonFC: re RNC, it has Microsofters inside it. Management.	May 19 09:10
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schestowitz	kentma1: no news last night, I was busy with other things, but will catch up today	May 19 09:17
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schestowitz	DaemonFC: good quote that one. Predictable	May 19 09:18
schestowitz	kentma1: I'll post some now	May 19 09:20
DaemonFC	what did I say?	May 19 09:20
*DaemonFC has no scrollback		May 19 09:20
DaemonFC	:P	May 19 09:20
DaemonFC	it's 4:30 AM here :P	May 19 09:22
DaemonFC	and burning up	May 19 09:22
*DaemonFC opens the window		May 19 09:22
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DaemonFC	jesus....	May 19 09:30
DaemonFC	schestowitz: Every page on Microsoft.com has an ad for IE 8	May 19 09:30
DaemonFC	telling you to "upgrade your internet experience"	May 19 09:31
DaemonFC	they sure know how to peddle dog shit	May 19 09:31
DaemonFC	http://www.microsoft.com/upgrade/	May 19 09:31
DaemonFC	my ass	May 19 09:31
DaemonFC	:P	May 19 09:31
schestowitz	So they don't just force it but also spend a fortunate/lots of estate promoting it	May 19 09:32
schestowitz	I've known professor who were afraiid of Firefox because of "Security"	May 19 09:33
schestowitz	They are told by Microsoft that "not Microsoft" is "not secure"	May 19 09:33
tessier	http://www.olpcnews.com/software/windows/nobody_buying_windows_xo_laptops.html	May 19 09:34
tessier	You might enjoy that	May 19 09:34
DaemonFC	schestowitz: In my testing, IE 7 was the slowest browser on Windows Vista	May 19 09:34
DaemonFC	and IE 8 was the 2nd slowest	May 19 09:34
DaemonFC	:)	May 19 09:34
DaemonFC	well, all we can do is hope the EU kicks Microsoft in the nuts as hard as they kicked Intel	May 19 09:35
DaemonFC	over the whole IE thing	May 19 09:35
DaemonFC	IE has never been my favorite anything	May 19 09:36
schestowitz	tessier: yes, great news!	May 19 09:36
schestowitz	I saw it earlier	May 19 09:36
schestowitz	tessier: they were never interested in OLC	May 19 09:36
DaemonFC	I didn't even support RSS until late 2006	May 19 09:36
schestowitz	ushimitsudoki found the evidence	May 19 09:36
DaemonFC	*IE	May 19 09:36
schestowitz	tessier: as soon as we replace the DBs, then it's all set and I can delete like 10GB of files from my account	May 19 09:37
DaemonFC	oh god damn it	May 19 09:37
DaemonFC	that Windows Customer Experience popup just came back	May 19 09:37
DaemonFC	"Please let us spy on you".......Cancel	May 19 09:39
DaemonFC	19 hours later "Please let us spy on you"	May 19 09:39
DaemonFC	til you delete the task scheduler entries or tell it OK	May 19 09:39
DaemonFC	hmmm, looks like Pakistan is finally going to do something about the Taliban strongholds	May 19 09:53
DaemonFC	it's about time	May 19 09:53
DaemonFC	if we had really wanted Bin Laden all that bad we would have told them to do it or we'd take care of it for them	May 19 09:54
DaemonFC	about 5-6 years ago	May 19 09:54
schestowitz	Back in 15 minutes	May 19 09:56
schestowitz	OK, I'm back	May 19 10:08
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schestowitz	tessier: are you there?	May 19 10:17
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DaemonFC	schestowitz	May 19 10:22
DaemonFC	looks like NoScript was up to NoGood lately	May 19 10:22
schestowitz	Yes, I heard	May 19 10:23
kentma1	schestowitz: I have no News from you yesterday - is that correct?	May 19 10:23
DaemonFC	the guy that wrote NoScript started modifying Adblock Plus to let his own ads through	May 19 10:23
schestowitz	Yes, I post some now	May 19 10:23
schestowitz	Moved servers yesterday	May 19 10:23
DaemonFC	then apologized after he was caught red handed	May 19 10:23
DaemonFC	probably shat himself when he thought that a million pissed off Firefox users would ask Mozilla to delist him	May 19 10:24
DaemonFC	heh	May 19 10:24
DaemonFC	schestowitz: I can't explain it	May 19 10:30
DaemonFC	but it appears that SeaMonkey actually uses less resources than Firefox	May 19 10:30
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_Hicham_	Hi All!	May 19 10:31
DaemonFC	I've had SeaMonkey open, with ChatZilla, occasionally opening my mail for several hours now	May 19 10:31
DaemonFC	and it's using 68 megs of RAM	May 19 10:31
_Hicham_	Good Morning schestowitz!	May 19 10:31
DaemonFC	that's pretty good	May 19 10:31
_Hicham_	Good Evening oiaohm!	May 19 10:31
DaemonFC	Firefox seems to have had some significant regressions	May 19 10:32
_Hicham_	DaemonFC : you like SeaMonkey better than Firefox?	May 19 10:32
DaemonFC	yeah actually	May 19 10:32
DaemonFC	think I do	May 19 10:32
_Hicham_	what kind of Regressions?	May 19 10:32
DaemonFC	Firefox appears to leak more memory than SeaMonkey	May 19 10:32
_Hicham_	they share the same underlying code?	May 19 10:33
_Hicham_	how can it be?	May 19 10:33
DaemonFC	some of the same code	May 19 10:33
_Hicham_	they have the same xulrunner	May 19 10:33
DaemonFC	yeah, same rendering engine	May 19 10:33
DaemonFC	but the browsers appear to be quite different beyond that	May 19 10:33
DaemonFC	I mean they both use most of the same extensions and such	May 19 10:34
_Hicham_	xulrunner is responsible for memory leaks	May 19 10:34
schestowitz	Mandriva 2009 Spring Kicks Vista7 back to /dev/null http://linuxtoday.com/news_story.php3?ltsn=2009-05-18-016-35-RV-MD	May 19 10:34
DaemonFC	I noticed that	May 19 10:34
schestowitz	:-)	May 19 10:34
_Hicham_	so if there is a memory leak in Firefox, it will be in SeaMonkey too	May 19 10:34
schestowitz	in de null?	May 19 10:34
_Hicham_	and Thunderbird also	May 19 10:34
schestowitz	*de nul	May 19 10:34
_Hicham_	and Songbird	May 19 10:34
_Hicham_	and Yelp	May 19 10:34
_Hicham_	Epiphany	May 19 10:34
_Hicham_	and so on	May 19 10:34
DaemonFC	well, I don't know why it's not misbehaving	May 19 10:34
DaemonFC	but it isn't	May 19 10:35
DaemonFC	Law of Belligerent Design	May 19 10:35
DaemonFC	yes, that must be it	May 19 10:35
*schestowitz can't type well whilst eating		May 19 10:35
_Hicham_	actually, the problem relies in the extensions	May 19 10:35
_Hicham_	schestowitz is a big eater	May 19 10:35
_Hicham_	he have a stomach leak	May 19 10:35
_Hicham_	just like xulrunner from time to time	May 19 10:35
_Hicham_	he is based on the same engine	May 19 10:36
schestowitz	running strace stomach	May 19 10:36
DaemonFC	ftrace	May 19 10:36
DaemonFC	:D	May 19 10:36
DaemonFC	doppler effect	May 19 10:37
_Hicham_	did u use Firefox Fedora?	May 19 10:37
schestowitz	Tutorial: Boot Linux Over A Network http://www.pcplus.co.uk/content/tutorial-boot-linux-over-network	May 19 10:37
_Hicham_	Firefox Fedora seems to be faster	May 19 10:38
_Hicham_	did anyone notice that?	May 19 10:38
_Hicham_	more than Firefox Ubuntu	May 19 10:39
_Hicham_	where is oiaohm?	May 19 10:40
oiaohm	Hi _Hicham_	May 19 10:40
_Hicham_	where have u been oiaohm?	May 19 10:41
_Hicham_	cooking dinner?	May 19 10:41
oiaohm	Had dinner ages ago.	May 19 10:41
oiaohm	Case of being out and leaving terminal running.	May 19 10:41
_Hicham_	there is no risk in leaving your computer like that?	May 19 10:42
_Hicham_	I mean a thief can enter and steal all of your secret data?	May 19 10:42
oiaohm	System auto console locks.	May 19 10:43
_Hicham_	after how much idle time?	May 19 10:43
oiaohm	My stuff with real secret stuff on does not have internet connection.	May 19 10:43
oiaohm	Distance _Hicham_	May 19 10:44
oiaohm	3 meters away it will console lock.	May 19 10:44
_Hicham_	wow	May 19 10:44
_Hicham_	do u have a sensor on your computer?	May 19 10:44
oiaohm	Simple blue tooth device.	May 19 10:44
oiaohm	As soon as it out of range lock the console.	May 19 10:45
_Hicham_	really smart solution	May 19 10:45
oiaohm	Cheep solution.	May 19 10:46
oiaohm	Few scripts and you have it.	May 19 10:47
oiaohm	Note it only locks the console password is still required to unlock it.	May 19 10:47
_Hicham_	do u think that kernel should have a stable driver ABI?	May 19 10:48
oiaohm	From a secuirty point of view no.	May 19 10:48
oiaohm	Not kernel space at least.	May 19 10:48
oiaohm	userspace driver interface yes that should exist.	May 19 10:49
oiaohm	Closed source not auditable parts have no place in kernel space.	May 19 10:49
_Hicham_	what about closed source firmwares?	May 19 10:50
_Hicham_	have they been audited?	May 19 10:50
oiaohm	Firmwares are a evil you cannot avoid.	May 19 10:50
oiaohm	Even if you banned OS from loading them they could be embeded on card.	May 19 10:50
oiaohm	Really at least loadable by OS they can be updated simpler.	May 19 10:51
oiaohm	Of course from secuirty point of view I would prefer open source firmwares.	May 19 10:51
schestowitz	Hehe. http://dictionary.cambridge.org/cmd_search.asp	May 19 10:51
oiaohm	But this is a real world.	May 19 10:51
schestowitz	Microsoft FAIL	May 19 10:51
oiaohm	So you cannot have everything you want.	May 19 10:51
schestowitz	The whole dictionary doesn't work because of it	May 19 10:51
_Hicham_	what we can do is separate firmwares into separate packages just like Fedora and Debian do?	May 19 10:52
oiaohm	Linux kernel is going that path _Hicham_	May 19 10:52
oiaohm	In time there will not be a single firmware in the kernel source.	May 19 10:53
_Hicham_	Ubuntu doesn't do that	May 19 10:53
_Hicham_	they offer you a one piece kernel	May 19 10:53
_Hicham_	bastardizing the user experience	May 19 10:53
_Hicham_	I like how Fedora is doing things	May 19 10:53
oiaohm	Ubuntu breaking Open Source project recommendations.	May 19 10:53
oiaohm	as per normal.	May 19 10:53
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oiaohm	I can still remember telling Ubuntu maintainer never back port patches on wine.	May 19 10:54
oiaohm	And the maintainer going ahead and doing it.	May 19 10:54
_Hicham_	they even add some overhead to kernel developers	May 19 10:54
_Hicham_	by applying some weird patches	May 19 10:54
oiaohm	Wine is that complex that not even the lead developers of wine know what some of the effects will be by back porting.	May 19 10:55
_Hicham_	the kernel team intervenes then and offers patches to fix Ubuntu's kernel problems	May 19 10:55
oiaohm	Ubuntu is far too much bleeding edge.	May 19 10:55
oiaohm	In there maintainer ship rules.	May 19 10:56
_Hicham_	like when they added some experimental Intel Ethernet Cards Driver	May 19 10:56
_Hicham_	it is not bleeding edge	May 19 10:56
_Hicham_	I don't agree on that	May 19 10:56
oiaohm	Debian is too much stick in mud.	May 19 10:56
_Hicham_	Fedora is the real bleeding edge Distro	May 19 10:56
_Hicham_	no distro is ahead of it	May 19 10:56
AWR	a head of its fail	May 19 10:57
oiaohm	Debian Sid is equal to Fedora.	May 19 10:57
_Hicham_	no	May 19 10:57
_Hicham_	Debian Sid in way behind Fedora	May 19 10:57
oiaohm	There is a difference.	May 19 10:57
_Hicham_	what is the Difference?	May 19 10:57
oiaohm	Sid takes the latest packages from software markers with min alterations.	May 19 10:58
_Hicham_	plus, Sid is less stable than Fedora	May 19 10:58
_Hicham_	no	May 19 10:58
_Hicham_	Sid makes patches	May 19 10:58
_Hicham_	Fedora do not	May 19 10:58
oiaohm	Fedora uses more svn stuff.	May 19 10:58
_Hicham_	Fedora is closest distro to upstream projects	May 19 10:58
oiaohm	Basically there is no distribution with perfect.	May 19 10:59
oiaohm	For end users.	May 19 10:59
_Hicham_	they ship almost vanilla versions	May 19 10:59
oiaohm	Almost is a key word when you come to debugging.	May 19 10:59
DaemonFC	hmmmm, so much for family friendly	May 19 10:59
oiaohm	Wine is almost vanilla on Fedora other than a non approved pulseaudio support.	May 19 10:59
_Hicham_	so when reporting a bug, you don't have to install the vanilla version	May 19 10:59
_Hicham_	Fedora pushes things ahead	May 19 11:00
oiaohm	That does create some strange bugs.	May 19 11:00
_Hicham_	there must some bleeding edge distro	May 19 11:00
oiaohm	There is push ahead and then there is what fedora and msot other distributions think they have the right to do.	May 19 11:00
DaemonFC	http://img90.imageshack.us/img90/8296/37423252.png	May 19 11:01
DaemonFC	heh	May 19 11:01
_Hicham_	if no one do it? how can we have prove the technology?	May 19 11:01
oiaohm	If fedroa pushed forward and labeled wine like fedora wine so there alteration was like OK tampered with that.	May 19 11:01
DaemonFC	lookie what I found	May 19 11:01
DaemonFC	:)	May 19 11:01
oiaohm	It would be nicer for upstream maintainers _Hicham_	May 19 11:01
oiaohm	Basically debians Fedora... All abuse upstream.	May 19 11:01
oiaohm	By not labeling what they have altered.	May 19 11:02
oiaohm	Lot of upstream would love to be able to release for all distributions at once to cut this crap out.	May 19 11:02
_Hicham_	some projects start doing it	May 19 11:02
_Hicham_	wine, openoffice	May 19 11:03
oiaohm	Wine was forced to.	May 19 11:03
_Hicham_	if Firefox offers rpms and debs also	May 19 11:03
oiaohm	Wine at one point had over 95 percent of bugs being worked on turning out to be distribution caused.	May 19 11:03
oiaohm	That is one hell of a waste of resources.	May 19 11:03
oiaohm	Yes caused by distribition added patches.	May 19 11:04
_Hicham_	Fedora strives to not add patches	May 19 11:04
oiaohm	They could label better where they do.	May 19 11:04
oiaohm	If you read the GPL licence part of it requires are that you do label alterations clearly.	May 19 11:05
_Hicham_	https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/PackageMaintainers/WhyUpstream	May 19 11:05
oiaohm	Fedora upstream policy is good.	May 19 11:06
_Hicham_	you must make a difference	May 19 11:06
oiaohm	It the policy when they don't that needs a little more work.	May 19 11:06
_Hicham_	Fedora and Debian are very different when it comes to upstream	May 19 11:07
oiaohm	Changeing what is return on version string of program would be advistable.	May 19 11:07
AWR	/ctcp oiaohm version	May 19 11:07
_Hicham_	Fedora is a launchpad for new technologies	May 19 11:07
_Hicham_	like KMS	May 19 11:07
_Hicham_	you must admit that	May 19 11:07
_Hicham_	KMS was available since 2.6.27	May 19 11:08
oiaohm	wine --version what is the wine version request command can be altered to report alteration AWR.	May 19 11:08
_Hicham_	and now it is a mature state for Radeon cards	May 19 11:08
oiaohm	Lot of other program have those features.	May 19 11:08
oiaohm	This way people giving support can give distribution netrual instructiosn to find the version.	May 19 11:08
*AWR has quit (""FAIL ON"")		May 19 11:08
oiaohm	KMS was backported in 2.6.27 by fedora.	May 19 11:09
oiaohm	It was not part of 2.6.27 default kernel.	May 19 11:09
_Hicham_	yes	May 19 11:09
_Hicham_	to help test it	May 19 11:09
oiaohm	backported not the word.	May 19 11:09
oiaohm	Extra tree merged in.	May 19 11:09
_Hicham_	and now it is doing well	May 19 11:10
_Hicham_	because it was tested	May 19 11:10
oiaohm	Linus has a major grip with number of complier errors fedora lets stand.	May 19 11:10
_Hicham_	compiler errors are better than security holes	May 19 11:10
oiaohm	Errorless build is something that is a general main kernel requirement.	May 19 11:10
oiaohm	Compiler errors can be warning about points that are security holes.	May 19 11:11
_Hicham_	remember the openssl hole in debian	May 19 11:11
_Hicham_	not always	May 19 11:11
_Hicham_	they may be gcc bugs	May 19 11:11
oiaohm	If you don't inspect them and remove them you don't know.	May 19 11:11
_Hicham_	and you know that very well	May 19 11:11
_Hicham_	maybe it is gcc	May 19 11:11
_Hicham_	not the code	May 19 11:11
_Hicham_	how can you know	May 19 11:12
oiaohm	Even if its gcc there are ways to stop gcc spitting our errors.	May 19 11:12
_Hicham_	Linus uses Fedora by the way	May 19 11:12
oiaohm	It is a true problem.	May 19 11:13
oiaohm	That Fedora builders are not taking complier errors serousally enough.	May 19 11:13
_Hicham_	I know	May 19 11:13
_Hicham_	maybe because the build was ok by Portland Group Compiler	May 19 11:14
_Hicham_	who knows?	May 19 11:14
_Hicham_	they must have certain reasons	May 19 11:14
oiaohm	Its more they don't take it serousally.	May 19 11:14
_Hicham_	I don't think that	May 19 11:15
_Hicham_	because it is more optimized than the other distros	May 19 11:15
oiaohm	Every time a new Fedora kernel maintainer comes accross and puts in a patch for upstream Linux kernel.	May 19 11:15
oiaohm	It normally has complier errors and Linus basically rips into them.	May 19 11:15
oiaohm	After they make the same very bad error. The warning was not important line. Never say that to linus	May 19 11:16
_Hicham_	some warnings are not important	May 19 11:16
_Hicham_	true	May 19 11:16
_Hicham_	like : this function was deprecated	May 19 11:17
oiaohm	Linus line is if you have stack of not important warnings can you not miss seeing a important one.	May 19 11:17
_Hicham_	or : this variable was never used, ...etc	May 19 11:17
_Hicham_	you can see the output	May 19 11:17
_Hicham_	and filter it	May 19 11:17
oiaohm	variable never used can be important.	May 19 11:17
oiaohm	Like not set a secuirty feature.	May 19 11:18
_Hicham_	can be important yes	May 19 11:18
schestowitz	tessier is probably asleep.	May 19 11:18
oiaohm	This is the problem.	May 19 11:18
_Hicham_	but sometimes the compiler just issue the warning	May 19 11:18
_Hicham_	even if the variable is used somewhere	May 19 11:18
oiaohm	Every warn no matter how minor could be important.	May 19 11:18
*DaemonFC treats schestowitz to http://kevincarmony.com/linspire_videos/RunLinspire.swf		May 19 11:18
DaemonFC	:P	May 19 11:18
oiaohm	You will not know until you check it out _Hicham_	May 19 11:18
oiaohm	and when you are checking it out fixing is not hard.	May 19 11:19
_Hicham_	a 100% warning free compilation does not exist	May 19 11:19
oiaohm	Build raw kernel source some time.	May 19 11:19
oiaohm	100% warning free does exist.	May 19 11:20
oiaohm	Many project mainatain that status.	May 19 11:20
oiaohm	You should be able to get 100 percent warning free build on the same age gcc the developers were using.	May 19 11:20
DaemonFC	if you can build Linux without any compiler warnings.......welll	May 19 11:21
DaemonFC	that would be awesome	May 19 11:21
_Hicham_	not always oiaohm	May 19 11:21
_Hicham_	gcc changes	May 19 11:21
schestowitz	DaemonFC: he makes fun of Doors	May 19 11:21
oiaohm	I said same version gcc _Hicham_	May 19 11:21
oiaohm	You should always be able to get it.	May 19 11:21
oiaohm	If you cannot someone has stuffed up. You see lot of patches enter the mainline Linux kernel to maintain that status of complier warnings.	May 19 11:22
schestowitz	DaemonFC: yeah, that's what clains want to hear	May 19 11:23
schestowitz	"set MS on fire"	May 19 11:23
oiaohm	Some time major bugs are found because of it.	May 19 11:23
schestowitz	Can't wait to show this to the CIO..	May 19 11:23
DaemonFC	http://img207.imageshack.us/img207/5108/63714707.png	May 19 11:24
_Hicham_	do upstream kernel uses the latest version of gcc?	May 19 11:25
DaemonFC	http://img135.imageshack.us/img135/9347/77805460.png	May 19 11:26
_Hicham_	DaemonFC : why do u post those images?	May 19 11:27
oiaohm	Some do _Hicham_ . Lastest stable release of gcc is used the stable branch before release. _Hicham_	May 19 11:27
DaemonFC	meh	May 19 11:27
oiaohm	Fedora has a habit of running gcc ahead of that. Even so upstreaming fixs to those errors will still be accepted.	May 19 11:27
MinceR	he's pimping his 31337 0-day \/\|574 \|)35\|<+0p	May 19 11:27
DaemonFC	I have obsessive compulsive screenshot disorder	May 19 11:27
schestowitz	Todd R. Weiss writes for Linux.com: http://www.linux.com/news/enterprise/biz-enterprise/10672-how-to-talk-to-your-ciocto-about-using-linux-and-open-source-i	May 19 11:28
_Hicham_	oiaohm : so in your opinion, distros should use only the stable versions?	May 19 11:28
schestowitz	So weird to find him there....	May 19 11:28
schestowitz	He's no Linux guru either, despite what it days	May 19 11:29
schestowitz	*says	May 19 11:29
DaemonFC	Ubuntu is doing a lot of crazy things lately	May 19 11:29
oiaohm	_Hicham_: should at least be able to provide the stable versions _Hicham_	May 19 11:29
_Hicham_	who will develop and test then?	May 19 11:29
oiaohm	projects don't create stable versions for no good reason.	May 19 11:29
oiaohm	Stable we know this works so good. If you need more features then use development.	May 19 11:30
_Hicham_	stable versions are suitable for production machines	May 19 11:30
oiaohm	Stable versions also allow ruling out if it just a bad patch in the development version too or something else.	May 19 11:31
DaemonFC	meh, Ubuntu wastes a lot of opportunities with their alpha/beta process	May 19 11:31
DaemonFC	and even when something is obviously broken, they won't fix it	May 19 11:31
DaemonFC	because they decided which version of it to use a month before the alpha builds started	May 19 11:31
oiaohm	Not having the stable versions does make support harder to isolate where the problem is _Hicham_	May 19 11:32
_Hicham_	what about syncing to upstream?	May 19 11:32
DaemonFC	oiaohm: I doubt anyone that wants official paid support would use one of the 6 month releases	May 19 11:32
_Hicham_	in development and release?	May 19 11:32
_Hicham_	DaemonFC : no one would want to	May 19 11:32
oiaohm	sync up stream should happen. But the problem I am refering to is diagnostics.	May 19 11:33
DaemonFC	the idea of having to format a server and start over every 6 months is not going to go over very well	May 19 11:33
DaemonFC	thats why they do these long term support versions	May 19 11:33
DaemonFC	their support for LTS is still less than Debian or Red Hat, or even Microsoft Windows	May 19 11:34
DaemonFC	I think Red Hat and Debian go 7 years	May 19 11:34
oiaohm	If you have stable version of firefox and beta version of firefox and only the beta cannot render a page you know you have a probem in the beta.	May 19 11:34
DaemonFC	and Windows is 10?	May 19 11:34
oiaohm	Define 10	May 19 11:34
DaemonFC	5 years of mainstream support and 5 years Extended	May 19 11:34
_Hicham_	I have Firefox beta	May 19 11:35
DaemonFC	Extended just means security hotfixes and paid support	May 19 11:35
oiaohm	Remember you have to pay to get access to the full extended.	May 19 11:35
DaemonFC	the security hotfixes are still free	May 19 11:35
DaemonFC	while you're in Extended	May 19 11:35
oiaohm	Redhat when you hit 7 allows next version free 1.	May 19 11:36
oiaohm	So its more like 14	May 19 11:36
DaemonFC	hmmmm	May 19 11:36
oiaohm	Before you have to pay.	May 19 11:36
DaemonFC	yeah I know they still support RHEL 4	May 19 11:36
DaemonFC	that's a good long lived distribution	May 19 11:36
oiaohm	MS there is no upgrade out policy.	May 19 11:36
DaemonFC	I think the idea is that you should only have to deploy it once	May 19 11:37
DaemonFC	Upgrade discs are cheaper than the full version	May 19 11:37
_Hicham_	Upgrade is a bad idea	May 19 11:37
DaemonFC	you can do a clean install off an Upgrade disc	May 19 11:37
oiaohm	Running with bad parts is also a bad idea.	May 19 11:38
DaemonFC	you don't even need to have a previous copy	May 19 11:38
DaemonFC	what you do is install Vista Upgrade without a serial number and without activating	May 19 11:38
DaemonFC	then immediately isntall it over itself	May 19 11:38
DaemonFC	from within Windows	May 19 11:38
DaemonFC	and that counts as an "upgrade" apparently	May 19 11:38
DaemonFC	hell if I know why	May 19 11:39
_Hicham_	from my previous experience, upgrades are always a bad idea	May 19 11:39
DaemonFC	it's not really an upgrade	May 19 11:39
_Hicham_	better reinstall everything	May 19 11:39
oiaohm	Windows upgrades are not that clean.	May 19 11:39
DaemonFC	you're installing the same thing	May 19 11:39
DaemonFC	over a clean copy	May 19 11:39
_Hicham_	it is less overhead	May 19 11:39
DaemonFC	so it should work fine	May 19 11:39
_Hicham_	no	May 19 11:39
oiaohm	I had very few problems from Linux distribution updates.	May 19 11:39
_Hicham_	it won't work fine	May 19 11:39
DaemonFC	oh bullshit	May 19 11:40
DaemonFC	I upgraded one system from Windows 98 to Me to XP	May 19 11:40
oiaohm	Windows screws the pooch in places in the regesitry.	May 19 11:40
oiaohm	I guess you run registry cleanners to clean it up DaemonFC	May 19 11:40
DaemonFC	I've had more trouble trying to upgrade Ubuntu over itself than Windows	May 19 11:40
DaemonFC	especially if you've sat out one version	May 19 11:41
DaemonFC	or more	May 19 11:41
DaemonFC	I tried to upgrade a machine from Edgy 6.10 last week that just wasn't having it	May 19 11:41
oiaohm	There is a way todo that.	May 19 11:42
oiaohm	Its not as nice as it should be.	May 19 11:42
_Hicham_	from edgy to jaunty?	May 19 11:42
DaemonFC	yeah	May 19 11:42
oiaohm	I have done edgy to jaunty.	May 19 11:42
DaemonFC	I edited my apt sources list and then it spent about 20 minutes calculating the upgrade	May 19 11:43
DaemonFC	then it spit out an error message	May 19 11:43
oiaohm	There are a few minor package mapping problems.	May 19 11:43
oiaohm	That is solve very wraped.	May 19 11:44
oiaohm	Add all the package lists of the versions in the middle.	May 19 11:44
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oiaohm	And somehow apt works it out.	May 19 11:44
oiaohm	I suspect it installs a few packages from the distrubtions in middle to solve problem.	May 19 11:45
_Hicham_	so it is more like you gonna upgrade to intermediate versions	May 19 11:46
_Hicham_	ie : 6.10->7.04->7.10->8.04->8.10->9.04	May 19 11:46
oiaohm	Ones you need are 6.10 7.10 8.10 and 9.04 to do the migration jump.	May 19 11:47
oiaohm	You can skip the .04 for some reason.	May 19 11:47
DaemonFC	lmao	May 19 11:48
_Hicham_	why do the upgrade in first place?	May 19 11:48
_Hicham_	better backup your home directory and do a fresh install	May 19 11:49
oiaohm	DaemonFC: its a feature of deb distributions.	May 19 11:50
oiaohm	That you can only upgrade so far without having to take middle steps.	May 19 11:50
oiaohm	Yes I agree it suxs to those who are not aware.	May 19 11:50
oiaohm	If you tried going straight from windows 95 to XP you would hit some headaches too.	May 19 11:51
oiaohm	apt is coded to fail then do a upgrade that will be completely destroyed.	May 19 11:52
DaemonFC	iMagicOS is the future of Linux	May 19 11:54
DaemonFC	they say so	May 19 11:54
DaemonFC	:P	May 19 11:54
DaemonFC	lol	May 19 11:54
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oiaohm	http://www.longene.org/en/ Another group has a different idea DaemonFC	May 19 11:56
oiaohm	Every group has different ideas there will be a winner.	May 19 11:57
*schestowitz watches http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RoGmk4U5Egw&NR=1		May 19 11:58
oiaohm	longene inlcude the idea of taking the MS drivers and Linux drivers and getting max compadiblity.	May 19 11:59
oiaohm	Reactos has the idea clone windows.	May 19 11:59
DaemonFC	I hope they succeed	May 19 12:00
oiaohm	Between it all someone will win.	May 19 12:00
DaemonFC	wish them all the luck in the world	May 19 12:00
DaemonFC	if they make a free Windows compatible system	May 19 12:00
DaemonFC	it will ruin Microsoft	May 19 12:00
DaemonFC	:)	May 19 12:00
DaemonFC	regardless of if you like Windows or not, that's still a win	May 19 12:00
oiaohm	Really does not matter if its longene or reactos.	May 19 12:00
DaemonFC	could you imagine Microsoft customers flocking to ReactOS en masse cause all their Windows software works on it	May 19 12:01
_Hicham_	I want open source to win	May 19 12:01
DaemonFC	then Microsoft, with nothing to sell anyone, and no authority on Windows-like systems just withers	May 19 12:01
DaemonFC	and dies	May 19 12:01
DaemonFC	that would be fairly cool	May 19 12:01
oiaohm	longene is really more threating.	May 19 12:02
oiaohm	Since hardware MS does not support anymore Linux kernel still does.	May 19 12:02
oiaohm	Basically fuse the two OS's with the most hardware support into 1.	May 19 12:03
DaemonFC	well, the main reason Linux isn't taking off is because there's SO MUCH hardware and software it can't use	May 19 12:03
DaemonFC	if that wasn't the case, I doubt anyone has love for Microsoft	May 19 12:03
DaemonFC	so they'd go under pretty fast	May 19 12:03
oiaohm	The are blocks of hardware MS does not support. Lot people forget about webcams and other items that no longer work with XP that worked with 2000 and same with XP to Vista.	May 19 12:04
oiaohm	There are incompadiblitys in both camps.	May 19 12:05
oiaohm	Linux has more issues with new hardware.	May 19 12:05
oiaohm	MS has more issues with old hardware.	May 19 12:05
DaemonFC	XP and Vista both support WDM drivers	May 19 12:05
DaemonFC	just run the installer in XP SP 2 Compatibility Mode	May 19 12:06
DaemonFC	and it will usually quit bitching and install	May 19 12:06
oiaohm	Not all cases.	May 19 12:06
oiaohm	Not all drivers are what you call nice.	May 19 12:06
oiaohm	Some hook to memory addresses only in XP so when put in Vista will kill the system.	May 19 12:07
oiaohm	Basically non certified stuff is loto.	May 19 12:07
oiaohm	In there are drivers that will kill the system.	May 19 12:08
oiaohm	Windows 7 looks to be worse on hardware support.	May 19 12:08
DaemonFC	I noticed	May 19 12:09
oiaohm	Old hardware Linux is king. New hardware windows is.	May 19 12:10
oiaohm	That is why the merge would be great.	May 19 12:10
DaemonFC	I'd like to be able to use a completed ReactOS	May 19 12:11
DaemonFC	that would certainly be preferable	May 19 12:11
DaemonFC	it says it only needs 32 megs of RAM	May 19 12:11
oiaohm	Less at moment.	May 19 12:11
DaemonFC	thats the same requirement as Windows 2000	May 19 12:11
oiaohm	It will just operating in 24	May 19 12:11
_Hicham_	swfdec has still a huge cpu usage	May 19 12:12
oiaohm	But there are still a lot of features missing.	May 19 12:12
_Hicham_	just like gnash	May 19 12:12
_Hicham_	I heard that it is X related	May 19 12:12
_Hicham_	is the X server the cause in ur opinion oiaohm?	May 19 12:12
oiaohm	what is your driver dri1?	May 19 12:12
oiaohm	If its dri2 x11 should not be.	May 19 12:13
oiaohm	Issue with dri1 there is no video card memory manager in control of everything.	May 19 12:13
oiaohm	So blocks of memory end up duplicated in normally memory to restore to video card as required.	May 19 12:13
oiaohm	Tracking in dri1 of that is not great so you do end up with some high memory usages.	May 19 12:14
oiaohm	Dri2 has a proper video card memory manager so issue does not happen.	May 19 12:14
_Hicham_	I have dri2	May 19 12:16
_Hicham_	did u use gnash or swfdec without high cpu problems?	May 19 12:16
oiaohm	I don't use them at moment.	May 19 12:16
_Hicham_	that is what i am talking about	May 19 12:16
oiaohm	gnash and swfdec don't take advantage of the video card for decoding either.	May 19 12:17
_Hicham_	gnash and swfdec seem to have the same problem	May 19 12:17
oiaohm	adobe flash uses some opengl.	May 19 12:17
oiaohm	And some shader code.	May 19 12:18
oiaohm	Does make a large difference on cpu usage.	May 19 12:18
DaemonFC	Flash 10 uses DirectX on Windows	May 19 12:18
DaemonFC	and OpenGL on Linux and Mac	May 19 12:18
_Hicham_	that is why it uses less resources?	May 19 12:18
oiaohm	Most of it _Hicham_	May 19 12:19
_Hicham_	I don't why gnash doesn't do the same	May 19 12:19
oiaohm	Also adobe active script JIT is better than gnash or swfdec	May 19 12:19
oiaohm	Basically because no one has coded it to _Hicham_	May 19 12:19
oiaohm	blender.org a 3d editor use to suck the living live out system before a few 3d game programmers decide to work on it recent.	May 19 12:21
oiaohm	Made gnash look friendly.	May 19 12:21
DaemonFC	most of the stuff the FSF makes don't actually work	May 19 12:21
oiaohm	8 core system over 100 percent load rendering.	May 19 12:21
DaemonFC	their compiler and libraries are the exception	May 19 12:21
oiaohm	Same thing now renders realtime at 60 frames per second.	May 19 12:22
DaemonFC	there's a huge gap between what real people would want to use and what a room of geeks will put out	May 19 12:22
oiaohm	With almost no cpu load.	May 19 12:22
oiaohm	DaemonFC: there is not a big gap.	May 19 12:23
oiaohm	Its funding.	May 19 12:23
DaemonFC	if the FSF made it and it has user interaction through a GUI	May 19 12:23
DaemonFC	it will suck	May 19 12:23
oiaohm	Blender project has worked out how to get its funding.	May 19 12:23
DaemonFC	that seems to be the rule	May 19 12:23
oiaohm	Since then its gone ahead in leaps and bounds.	May 19 12:23
DaemonFC	Blender sucks on Vista	May 19 12:24
DaemonFC	but for some reason it works fine on Windows 7	May 19 12:24
DaemonFC	and XP	May 19 12:24
oiaohm	Opengl stack.	May 19 12:24
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DaemonFC	well it's fine on Vista, till you maximize it	May 19 12:24
DaemonFC	then get ready for slooooooooooooow	May 19 12:24
oiaohm	Disable aroe Ok that fancy screen disapply of Vista.	May 19 12:25
DaemonFC	that doesn't help	May 19 12:25
DaemonFC	Microsoft offered to let Blender come over and learn how to make it work well on Vista	May 19 12:25
DaemonFC	and I believe they blew them off	May 19 12:25
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oiaohm	For one big reason.	May 19 12:26
oiaohm	MS said port to Direct X	May 19 12:26
oiaohm	Not how to make Opengl work.	May 19 12:26
DaemonFC	and no I don't think that software should work WORSE jsut cause it's on Vista	May 19 12:26
DaemonFC	or Windows	May 19 12:26
_Hicham_	Vista do not support OpenGL very well	May 19 12:26
DaemonFC	these free software projects discriminate and it makes all of them look bad	May 19 12:26
oiaohm	You would have been using non business version of vista	May 19 12:26
DaemonFC	and Vista supports OpenGL just fine	May 19 12:26
DaemonFC	even the OpenGL people said that was jsut a myth	May 19 12:27
DaemonFC	http://www.opengl.org/pipeline/article/vol003_7/	May 19 12:27
oiaohm	Particular operations in Opengl trip the DRM system.	May 19 12:27
oiaohm	Business does not have DRM.	May 19 12:27
DaemonFC	"OpenGL and Direct3D are treated the same by Windows Vista, resulting in full integration into the OS for both APIs. "	May 19 12:27
DaemonFC	"Just like Windows XP, Windows Vista does not contain an OpenGL ICD "in the box." End users will need to install drivers from OEMs or video hardware manufacturers in order to access native hardware-accelerated OpenGL."	May 19 12:28
_Hicham_	no	May 19 12:28
_Hicham_	OpenGL is mapped to DirectX	May 19 12:28
DaemonFC	the OpenGL people say it works fine on Vista	May 19 12:29
DaemonFC	and DirectX is not getting prefeerrential treatment	May 19 12:29
oiaohm	Notice all the special instructions there.	May 19 12:29
DaemonFC	I think they would probably be crying foul if they were being crippled	May 19 12:29
oiaohm	Opengl does not just work right.	May 19 12:30
DaemonFC	don't you?	May 19 12:30
oiaohm	Note Direct X application taking fullscreen and not signed had same probems as blender.	May 19 12:30
oiaohm	Did not happen with Business version of vista.	May 19 12:31
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oiaohm	Windows 7 does not do it.	May 19 12:31
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oiaohm	MS has not been nice enough to include that fix in a SP for Vista	May 19 12:31
oiaohm	Lot of the opengl programs were unsigned causing the myth of it opengl being worse.	May 19 12:32
tacone	uh ? technorati working again ?	May 19 12:33
schestowitz	bbl	May 19 12:33
schestowitz	I need to wait till tessier wakes up and swaps DBs	May 19 12:33
tacone	no, not really working again yet	May 19 12:35
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oiaohm	http://www.eofw.org/bench/ << Notice DaemonFC using right versions of Vista with Blender its performance is fine. Also notice machine as number 7.	May 19 12:42
oiaohm	It is just a pain getting vista setup right DaemonFC.	May 19 12:45
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_Hicham_	I am compiling latest gnash on Fedora	May 19 12:52
_Hicham_	and see if it will work	May 19 12:52
DaemonFC	hmmm	May 19 12:52
DaemonFC	Winamp supported Windows 98 til October 2007	May 19 12:53
DaemonFC	:P	May 19 12:53
_Hicham_	Audacious is more powerful than Winamp	May 19 12:53
DaemonFC	heh	May 19 12:54
DaemonFC	yeah, but it can only play two formats legally	May 19 12:54
DaemonFC	which is why Red Hat, Mandriva, and most distributions not based in tax havens and third world countries split off the plugins that they can't redistribute	May 19 12:57
_Hicham_	there is plugins	May 19 12:58
DaemonFC	so then you have to go hunt for them and technically break the law	May 19 12:58
_Hicham_	that you can find easily	May 19 12:58
DaemonFC	yeah, Ubuntu redistributes illegal codecs	May 19 12:58
DaemonFC	and doesn't seem to give much thought to it	May 19 12:59
_Hicham_	like Mandriva One	May 19 12:59
DaemonFC	Mandriva One is licensed	May 19 12:59
_Hicham_	to ease the user's experience	May 19 12:59
DaemonFC	Ubuntu ships pirate codecs	May 19 12:59
DaemonFC	lol	May 19 12:59
_Hicham_	how is Mandriva licensed?	May 19 12:59
DaemonFC	well, not on the CD, that way the CDs stay legal	May 19 12:59
DaemonFC	Mandriva pays royalties	May 19 12:59
DaemonFC	to Fluendo S.A.	May 19 12:59
_Hicham_	on their PowerPack version	May 19 13:00
DaemonFC	no, on the One version too	May 19 13:00
DaemonFC	they're all licensed or redistributable (Flash and such)	May 19 13:00
DaemonFC	Nvidia drivers	May 19 13:00
_Hicham_	give me some example of illegal codecs in Ubuntu, shipped out of the box	May 19 13:00
DaemonFC	out of box, none	May 19 13:00
DaemonFC	but they facilitate it	May 19 13:00
DaemonFC	through illegal downloads	May 19 13:00
oiaohm	Flash and nvidia drivers dont' need a extra licence to redistribute.	May 19 13:01
tacone	mp3 codecs	May 19 13:01
tacone	dvd codecs	May 19 13:01
DaemonFC	I know, those are redistributable	May 19 13:01
_Hicham_	normal	May 19 13:01
tacone	are not legal in us and a bunch of other stupid country	May 19 13:01
tacone	countries	May 19 13:01
DaemonFC	Ubuntu facilities illegal unlicensed codecdistribution	May 19 13:01
tacone	they're legal in a lot of other countries anyway	May 19 13:01
oiaohm	Big question on that.	May 19 13:01
DaemonFC	yeah, Russia and Iran	May 19 13:01
DaemonFC	and Mexicco	May 19 13:01
oiaohm	source country of Ubuntu its not illegal.	May 19 13:01
_Hicham_	mp3 codecs are not redistributable?	May 19 13:01
DaemonFC	*Mexico	May 19 13:01
DaemonFC	lol	May 19 13:01
tacone	in europe there's no such thing as illegal unlicensed codec distr.	May 19 13:02
_Hicham_	gnash takes a lot of time to compile	May 19 13:02
DaemonFC	Russian Black Market Vista	May 19 13:02
DaemonFC	rofl	May 19 13:02
tacone	we have no software patents, at least for now	May 19 13:02
_Hicham_	it is more than 10 minutes now	May 19 13:02
tacone	if the world was just europe, Mono would be a viable language.	May 19 13:02
DaemonFC	well, if your country is in the WTO	May 19 13:02
DaemonFC	just wait	May 19 13:02
DaemonFC	:)	May 19 13:02
oiaohm	Also some patents in Australia are invalid.	May 19 13:02
tacone	that doesn't mean anything	May 19 13:03
oiaohm	Even with the WTO.	May 19 13:03
DaemonFC	the WTO will rewrite all your laws	May 19 13:03
DaemonFC	and kill all your politicians that won't be corrupted	May 19 13:03
oiaohm	Because they were done in entrapment.	May 19 13:03
tacone	europe rejected sw patents. although corporation still try to get them in	May 19 13:03
oiaohm	Mp3 is one of those.	May 19 13:03
DaemonFC	it's legal to redistribute MP3	May 19 13:03
DaemonFC	as long as it's the Fluendo codec	May 19 13:03
oiaohm	You must mark a item you are going to take otu a patent on as patent pending mp3 did not.	May 19 13:03
oiaohm	So Australian law the base Mp3 patent is void.	May 19 13:04
oiaohm	It was taken out illegally.	May 19 13:04
DaemonFC	MP3 is a dinosaur	May 19 13:04
DaemonFC	LAME just smooths over some of the warts	May 19 13:04
oiaohm	There are quite a few USA patents that are also void.	May 19 13:05
oiaohm	Simple error of protocal.	May 19 13:05
oiaohm	Submerine patents are not legal here.	May 19 13:05
DaemonFC	MP3 is technically obsolete even if it wasn't patented	May 19 13:05
DaemonFC	but so many stupid people still use it	May 19 13:06
DaemonFC	you still need something that can read the files	May 19 13:06
_Hicham_	because that is what they know	May 19 13:06
_Hicham_	BBC has began some streaming in ogg format	May 19 13:06
oiaohm	USA companies love tricking people into using a format	May 19 13:07
oiaohm	Then create a patent withotu notice.	May 19 13:07
oiaohm	So there are massive numbers of patents that don't apply.	May 19 13:07
Omar87	Hi all	May 19 13:08
oiaohm	MP3 is used because its a dominate format that plays in the most devices DaemonFC	May 19 13:08
oiaohm	Same kind of reason why fat become a standard.	May 19 13:09
_Hicham_	مرحبا بالسيد عمر	May 19 13:10
DaemonFC	"In short, with Thomson, Fraunhofer IIS, Sisvel (and its U.S. subsidiary Audio MPEG), Texas MP3 Technologies, and Alcatel-Lucent all claiming legal control of relevant MP3 patents related to decoders, the legal status of MP3 remains unclear in countries where those patents are valid."	May 19 13:10
DaemonFC	lmao	May 19 13:10
DaemonFC	so the issue of who exactly owns the patents is keeping them from effectively enforcing them	May 19 13:11
DaemonFC	that's pretty funny	May 19 13:11
tacone	still they sell licenses	May 19 13:11
_Hicham_	patents stop science progress	May 19 13:11
tacone	and lucent successfully bullied and fined microsoft	May 19 13:11
DaemonFC	tacone: So if I buy a license from one company that claims to own MP3	May 19 13:11
DaemonFC	that doesn't protect me from the other 5	May 19 13:12
DaemonFC	right?	May 19 13:12
DaemonFC	lol	May 19 13:12
oiaohm	Yep 100 percent right.	May 19 13:12
tacone	i don't know, but maybe.. :-)	May 19 13:12
oiaohm	That is the other problem.	May 19 13:12
DaemonFC	too funny	May 19 13:12
oiaohm	Many formats also have patent overlap.	May 19 13:12
DaemonFC	oiaohm: I fucking hate Fruanhofer anyway	May 19 13:12
oiaohm	So making the not enforceable.	May 19 13:12
DaemonFC	they killed off the best MP3 decoder engine there was	May 19 13:13
DaemonFC	Nitrane	May 19 13:13
tacone	if you pay you're always good	May 19 13:13
DaemonFC	(at the time at least)	May 19 13:13
oiaohm	Because until they sort out who owns it you don't have to legally pay either.	May 19 13:13
DaemonFC	I stuck with the old 2.5 version of Winamp for a long time	May 19 13:13
tacone	if you pay the wrong people you can then sue him for fraud	May 19 13:13
DaemonFC	jsut cause it had Nitrane	May 19 13:13
DaemonFC	and the new ones had the reference decoder	May 19 13:13
oiaohm	tacone: you can pass it to the court.	May 19 13:13
oiaohm	Both charge different rates.	May 19 13:14
Omar87	_Hicham_: أهلا سيد هشام. :)	May 19 13:14
_Hicham_	كيف حال الإخوان في الأردن؟	May 19 13:14
Omar87	Speaking of ASUS's betrayal, what is the best netbook brand for Linux?	May 19 13:15
oiaohm	Problem with patent over lap is patent could be invalid by not being unque enough.	May 19 13:15
_Hicham_	what ASUS betrayal are you talking of Omar87?	May 19 13:15
Omar87	_Hicham_: الحمد لله كيف حال إخواننا في المغرب؟	May 19 13:16
oiaohm	ASUS still has linux on there machines.	May 19 13:16
Omar87	_Hicham_: http://boycottnovell.com/2009/05/17/reversal-after-eee-germany-kickbacks-sjvn/	May 19 13:16
DaemonFC	Перейти ебешь себе	May 19 13:16
Omar87	oiaohm: I know, but the specifications of the Linux pre-installed ones are worse than those with Windows.	May 19 13:17
tacone	oh, stop writing arabic. you all terrorists	May 19 13:17
DaemonFC	mine was Russian	May 19 13:17
DaemonFC	:D	May 19 13:17
_Hicham_	Omar87 : المغرب بخير و الحمد لله، الكل يبلغ لك أحر السلام	May 19 13:17
oiaohm	The windows ones also ship with a Linux Omar87	May 19 13:17
_Hicham_	tacone : do u mean what u are saying?	May 19 13:18
tacone	DaemonFC: i know	May 19 13:18
oiaohm	ASUS is taking kick backs to lower price.	May 19 13:18
tacone	_Hicham_: you're insulting me with that question	May 19 13:18
_Hicham_	tacone : so u r just kidding?	May 19 13:18
_Hicham_	Firefox 3.5beta4 is so slow on BN	May 19 13:20
_Hicham_	maybe it is debug-info related	May 19 13:21
DaemonFC	meh, I've been pretty skeptical of Firefox since it was announced	May 19 13:22
DaemonFC	I don't think there was anthing too wrong with Mozilla Suite that couldn't have been ironed out with a few trivial patches	May 19 13:22
DaemonFC	at the time though, AOL basically still controlled Mozilla	May 19 13:23
DaemonFC	and the only way to develop anything better seemed to be to fork it	May 19 13:23
DaemonFC	funny how silly and stupid and pointless Firefox turned out to be when it seemed so urgent back then	May 19 13:24
DaemonFC	There was actually a Netscape customization kit that also happened to find it's way back to Mozilla	May 19 13:25
DaemonFC	which could create trimmed down installations of Mozilla	May 19 13:26
DaemonFC	which is why I don't really accept their no bloat argument	May 19 13:26
DaemonFC	just remove the XPIs from Mozilla Suite	May 19 13:26
oiaohm	Firefox was early expermints working to web based applciations.	May 19 13:26
oiaohm	R&D stuff sometimes take a long path.	May 19 13:27
DaemonFC	I got used to Firefox somehow, usually cause it's what's there and well supported in most Linux distros	May 19 13:27
DaemonFC	doesn't mean I am crazy about it	May 19 13:27
oiaohm	I am not crazy about IE either.	May 19 13:28
DaemonFC	I stuck to SeaMonkey in Fedora for a while and got tired of filling pout a bug report	May 19 13:28
DaemonFC	every time a new version was out	May 19 13:28
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DaemonFC	asking for it to be packaged	May 19 13:28
DaemonFC	*out	May 19 13:28
DaemonFC	oiaohm: I'm still not sure Firefox was necessary	May 19 13:30
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DaemonFC	a few user interface and installer patches against Mozilla Suite would have done a better job than the fork has produced	May 19 13:31
DaemonFC	almost no development has been done on SeaMonkey in the last several years other than to shove in the newest Geck engine	May 19 13:31
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DaemonFC	*Gecko	May 19 13:32
DaemonFC	Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Windows NT 6.1; sv-SE; rv:1.9.0.10) Gecko/2009042316 Firefox/3.0.10 GTB5 (.NET CLR 3.5.30729)	May 19 13:33
DaemonFC	schestowitz	May 19 13:33
DaemonFC	Microsoft has infected Firefox 3 on Vista finally	May 19 13:33
DaemonFC	errr	May 19 13:33
DaemonFC	Windows 7	May 19 13:33
DaemonFC	:)	May 19 13:33
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_Hicham_	finalled compiled gnash	May 19 14:09
_Hicham_	it is huge	May 19 14:09
DaemonFC	well yeah	May 19 14:10
DaemonFC	it also needs gstreamer and codecs	May 19 14:10
DaemonFC	which may piss you off	May 19 14:10
DaemonFC	if you use KDE	May 19 14:10
DaemonFC	:)	May 19 14:10
_Hicham_	I noticed that there is an option to compile with OpenGL support	May 19 14:12
_Hicham_	I will recompile it with it	May 19 14:12
DaemonFC	KDE and GNOME exist basically so no matter what desktop you choose you'll get half the shit from the other one	May 19 14:12
DaemonFC	and all of its libraries	May 19 14:12
DaemonFC	Microsoft couldn't have planned that one better :)	May 19 14:12
_Hicham_	I don't use any Qt library on my machine	May 19 14:13
tacone	is 'to radicate' a proper expression ?	May 19 14:20
MinceR	no, but 'to eradicate' is	May 19 14:20
tacone	what's the opposite of eradicate ?	May 19 14:20
MinceR	oh, wait	May 19 14:21
MinceR	there _is_ radicate	May 19 14:21
MinceR	mw says it's in their paid version	May 19 14:21
MinceR	"radicate can be found at Merriam-WebsterUnabridged.com. Click here to start your free trial! Click here to search for another word in the Merriam-Webster Online Dictionary."	May 19 14:21
tacone	i saw that page :(	May 19 14:21
tacone	free trial :(	May 19 14:21
tacone	is take roots proper ?	May 19 14:22
tacone	never mind	May 19 14:28
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mib_a8fvz9	hello	May 19 14:30
mib_a8fvz9	What's this I hear about MS tinkering with ODF again?	May 19 14:31
mib_a8fvz9	When will they learn not to interfere with forces that which they do not understand?	May 19 14:32
MinceR	when they realize that nothing can save them	May 19 14:35
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mib_a8fvz9	lol	May 19 14:39
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tacone	schestowitz: here ?	May 19 14:41
DaemonFC	I don't know why the focus is on Novell	May 19 14:42
DaemonFC	any company that had the chance to make money would do it	May 19 14:42
DaemonFC	I fully expect to see Ubuntu co-opted by Microsoft at some point	May 19 14:43
tacone	http://www.stefanoforenza.com/the-mono-crusade/	May 19 14:43
DaemonFC	Python?	May 19 14:44
DaemonFC	You're shitting me	May 19 14:44
DaemonFC	ugggh	May 19 14:45
tacone	why ?	May 19 14:45
tacone	is the language used by zeitgeist and ubuntu-one	May 19 14:45
DaemonFC	aside from poor performance?	May 19 14:45
DaemonFC	nothing I guess	May 19 14:45
tacone	should have said those software were made in c ?	May 19 14:45
DaemonFC	oh and gobbles RAM	May 19 14:45
tacone	like every run-time	May 19 14:45
DaemonFC	if you write anything bigger than Hello World you have a major problem on your hands soon	May 19 14:46
tacone	i like interpreted languages	May 19 14:46
tacone	sure you can't use them for everything.	May 19 14:46
DaemonFC	yeah, Deluge is a prime example of the kind of fucked up shit that Python makes it wasy to write	May 19 14:46
DaemonFC	it only uses 12 times the RAM of Transmission	May 19 14:47
DaemonFC	:D	May 19 14:47
DaemonFC	sacrifices must be made for progress	May 19 14:47
DaemonFC	right?	May 19 14:47
DaemonFC	:)	May 19 14:47
tacone	well	May 19 14:48
tacone	sure some trade-off may be good	May 19 14:48
tacone	i'm not a fundamentalist	May 19 14:49
DaemonFC	Then you have Perl scripts which is why precisely 3 Windows users use XChat, because they don't want 100 megs of runtime to plug into a 1.5 meg IRC client to provide scripting support	May 19 14:49
tacone	update-manager is made in python and that's good	May 19 14:49
DaemonFC	as long as you don't need it to do anything complicated or where total disaster is unacceptable, then yeah, Python is perfect	May 19 14:50
tacone	ok we agree on that	May 19 14:51
DaemonFC	>I think IRC scripting is overrated and dangerous anyway, just shifting up one later I can obscure functions that delete people's files and call it an MP3 announcer :)	May 19 14:52
DaemonFC	Ubuntu won't save you now! Bahahaha!!!! All your pr0nz are belong to us!	May 19 14:53
*MinceR slaps DaemonFC around with a copy of mirc		May 19 14:54
tacone	i use pidgin. script that	May 19 14:54
DaemonFC	I love how people jsut paste huge chunks of text they don't understand into the terminal, as administrator	May 19 14:55
DaemonFC	people are so fucking stupid that the Ubuntu forum has a whole sticky page warning about that	May 19 14:55
tacone	and many people have a signature about that.	May 19 14:55
DaemonFC	I know	May 19 14:55