IRC: #boycottnovell @ FreeNode: May 22nd, 2009

tacone	pft	May 22 00:00
tacone	workswithu is mainly rubbish	May 22 00:00
tacone	well not really rubbish, but pretty a commercial site	May 22 00:00
schestowitz	World’s Smallest Computer Runs on Ubuntu < http://trendsupdates.com/worlds-smallest-computer-runs-on-ubuntu/ >	May 22 00:00
tacone	some enterprise consideration along with a 90% of pointless speculations	May 22 00:01
schestowitz	tacone: agreed	May 22 00:01
tacone	ubuntu newsletter, though, seems to like it.	May 22 00:01
schestowitz	I like the guy who runs it though	May 22 00:01
tacone	it looks professional	May 22 00:01
schestowitz	I'm friends with Joe (vary Guy)	May 22 00:01
tacone	urgh	May 22 00:01
tacone	that guy never links to anyone	May 22 00:01
schestowitz	The people who write for WorkswithU (which is a name I hate BTW) troll a lot	May 22 00:01
schestowitz	Provoke rather	May 22 00:01
schestowitz	Not troll	May 22 00:02
tacone	i pretty much hate it.	May 22 00:02
tacone	him	May 22 00:02
schestowitz	It's like they try to make "U" the standards Linux	May 22 00:02
tacone	workswithu is a nice name	May 22 00:02
schestowitz	it annoys some people	May 22 00:02
tacone	that's not the problem :)	May 22 00:02
schestowitz	tacone: all the sites look professional	May 22 00:02
schestowitz	They look the same	May 22 00:02
schestowitz	Just different colours and all	May 22 00:02
schestowitz	WEeb designers	May 22 00:02
tacone	not in the look	May 22 00:03
tacone	they're successfull at being considered professionals, i think.	May 22 00:03
schestowitz	redhat.com - 2nd round http://linuxsysconfig.com/2009/05/redhatcom-2nd-round/ looking bad??!	May 22 00:03
tacone	the var guy especially, has a nice following. but i didn't read anything interesting from him, until now	May 22 00:03
schestowitz	He's buddied with Novell	May 22 00:04
schestowitz	And I pressure him	May 22 00:04
schestowitz	*ddies	May 22 00:04
tacone	we'll see	May 22 00:04
tacone	offline time !	May 22 00:05
tacone	bye !	May 22 00:05
schestowitz	Did you see http://www.geektechnica.com/2009/05/the-future-of-gnome-de-looks-promising/ ?	May 22 00:05
schestowitz	Oh, nm	May 22 00:05
schestowitz	laters	May 22 00:05
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chips_b_malroy	you must have seen this one Jury orders Microsoft to pay $200M in patent dispute http://www.computerworld.com/action/article.do?command=viewArticleBasic&taxonomyName=government&articleId=9133384&taxonomyId=13&intsrc=kc_top	May 22 00:07
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schestowitz	Wait	May 22 00:08
schestowitz	Oh, he left	May 22 00:08
schestowitz	I found a goodie	May 22 00:08
schestowitz	chips_b_malroy: yes	May 22 00:08
chips_b_malroy	a guess why M$ needs to borrow money, the upcoming fines in the IE bundling with the EU. also following by the fine with the EU for office formats	May 22 00:10
chips_b_malroy	GE, Microsoft, Caterpillar fight Obama tax plan http://www.thedeal.com/dealscape/2009/05/obama_tax_plan_could_collatera.php	May 22 00:11
chips_b_malroy	last one then I gone Microsoft charity crackdown spurs boycott http://news.idg.no/cw/art.cfm?id=63B8D6DC-1A64-6A71-CE239976114D2137	May 22 00:14
schestowitz	We've just moved b/w servers and the new one lacks an extension, I thin	May 22 00:15
schestowitz	*think	May 22 00:15
schestowitz	So expect error pages. tessier can fix this when he gets back	May 22 00:15
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chips_b_malroy	I read the log about the dos attack and tor. Is there a way to ban ip addresses from tor exit modules?	May 22 00:16
chips_b_malroy	ip tables	May 22 00:16
chips_b_malroy	or perhaps change the comment system to only reg people?	May 22 00:17
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schestowitz	comment system?	May 22 00:18
schestowitz	For members only?	May 22 00:18
schestowitz	It's possible	May 22 00:18
schestowitz	But trolls might still come by	May 22 00:18
chips_b_malroy	thinking the log said that comments were the vehicle they used to dos?	May 22 00:19
chips_b_malroy	regging users with email verification of course will not stop the trolls, but might slow down the dos ones	May 22 00:20
chips_b_malroy	later	May 22 00:22
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schestowitz	Microsoft is spinning out of control, so it starts squeezing charities	May 22 00:24
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Balrog_	schestowitz: http://boycottnovell.com/2009/03/14/bbc-zombie-pc-crimes-conficker/ is broken	May 22 00:38
Balrog_	http://boycottnovell.com/2009/03/19/bbc-windows-botnets-fiasco/ also	May 22 00:38
schestowitz	Yes, tessier needs to fix this	May 22 00:38
schestowitz	But he's away	May 22 00:39
Balrog_	ok	May 22 00:39
schestowitz	Missing extension	May 22 00:39
Balrog_	looks like mod_rewrite is broken	May 22 00:39
schestowitz	Yes	May 22 00:39
Balrog_	( I hear mod_rewrite is a nightmare to work with ... too powerful for your own good :P )	May 22 00:40
schestowitz	tessier just need to enable it or something	May 22 00:41
schestowitz	We moved it to a vitual server	May 22 00:41
Balrog_	o ok.	May 22 00:42
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tessier	eh?	May 22 01:03
schestowitz	Hey	May 22 01:03
schestowitz	I tried phoning just now :-)	May 22 01:03
schestowitz	mod_rewrite	May 22 01:03
tessier	Yeah, that's why I jumped over here	May 22 01:03
schestowitz	Like the last time	May 22 01:03
tessier	Oh, right...you have the .htaccess thing. I forgot about that...	May 22 01:03
tessier	Ok, just a sec...	May 22 01:03
schestowitz	Thanks!	May 22 01:03
schestowitz	Site been broken all this time. No big deal..	May 22 01:03
schestowitz	:-)	May 22 01:04
tessier	There we go...all set	May 22 01:05
tessier	Actually not all that many people have the new dns yet	May 22 01:05
tessier	The old site is still getting lots of hits	May 22 01:05
schestowitz	Phew :-)	May 22 01:05
schestowitz	Thanks a million	May 22 01:05
schestowitz	Balrog_ got some error	May 22 01:05
schestowitz	*rs	May 22 01:05
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schestowitz	Thanks for all the effort	May 22 01:05
schestowitz	Groklaw had a long discussion about this.	May 22 01:06
schestowitz	The angry Novell people spread the rumour that I attacked myself	May 22 01:06
_Hicham_	they must prove it	May 22 01:07
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tessier	That would be an odd thing to do to oneself.	May 22 01:07
schestowitz	_Hicham_: they don't need to	May 22 01:07
schestowitz	Cause they would be wrong	May 22 01:07
schestowitz	tessier: yes	May 22 01:07
_Hicham_	maybe tessier did it :-D	May 22 01:08
_Hicham_	hahahahaha	May 22 01:08
schestowitz	tessier did a lot.. of good things	May 22 01:08
schestowitz	He saved the site	May 22 01:08
schestowitz	We got stranded by the host	May 22 01:08
schestowitz	After it had been hit by DDOS	May 22 01:09
_Hicham_	bravo tessier	May 22 01:09
schestowitz	tessier managed to beat the DDOS unlike the host	May 22 01:09
_Hicham_	tessier is our savior	May 22 01:09
schestowitz	The other host tried for 10 hours at about load average of 40-60	May 22 01:09
schestowitz	At 10am it cut us off	May 22 01:09
_Hicham_	tessier : did u secure the website?	May 22 01:09
schestowitz	_Hicham_: he did	May 22 01:09
_Hicham_	I heard that untangle is a good solution	May 22 01:10
schestowitz	I think he's at work now	May 22 01:10
schestowitz	Let's not bother him	May 22 01:10
_Hicham_	ok	May 22 01:10
schestowitz	A month from now I'll resume Comes. That'll be big impact, possible FPs in Digg and Slashdot	May 22 01:11
tessier	_Hicham_: Secure how? That's a big question.	May 22 01:11
schestowitz	Like Feburary and January this year	May 22 01:11
_Hicham_	tessier : did u hear about untangle?	May 22 01:12
tessier	schestowitz: I don't see the point in attacking the BBC for their botnet thing being potentially illegal.	May 22 01:12
tessier	_Hicham_: No. What/who is it?	May 22 01:12
schestowitz	tessier: it's not me attacking them	May 22 01:12
schestowitz	A lot of lawyers criticised them	May 22 01:12
schestowitz	Back in March	May 22 01:13
_Hicham_	tessier : http://www.untangle.com/	May 22 01:13
schestowitz	They needed to apologise in public	May 22 01:13
tessier	Lawyers...meh. It's what the judge says that matters.	May 22 01:13
schestowitz	tessier: they hijacked people's PCs without permission and paid the bad guys for the work, thus encouraging them	May 22 01:13
_Hicham_	Windows again	May 22 01:16
_Hicham_	Windows is helping hijackers	May 22 01:16
schestowitz	The BBC knew it was a PR fiasco and the British press was all over them	May 22 01:16
schestowitz	Then they apologised and issued statements of regret IIRC	May 22 01:16
tessier	schestowitz: Did they actually hijack them? Or did they just take control of part of a botnet that was hijacking them?	May 22 01:19
tessier	schestowitz: I would say it really depends a lot on exactly how they got involved.	May 22 01:19
tessier	If they initiated their own independent branch of the botnet then that's a problem.	May 22 01:20
tessier	But if they commandeered a command and control node and watched the rest spread (which would have happened had they been involved or not) I don't really see a problem with it.	May 22 01:20
schestowitz	I think they hired a botmaster	May 22 01:20
tessier	This sort of research needs to be done.	May 22 01:20
schestowitz	As in, they fed the syndicate which does this	May 22 01:20
tessier	And as far as I am concerned these people donated their resources to the botnet.	May 22 01:20
schestowitz	There are other issues	May 22 01:21
tessier	What else can you call the act of running Windows?	May 22 01:21
schestowitz	Worth enumerating	May 22 01:21
schestowitz	Neglect to name the source of the issue, but that's minor	May 22 01:21
schestowitz	There were hundreds of articles about it in March	May 22 01:21
schestowitz	tessier: one study claims hundreds of millions of WInodws boxes are idle zombies	May 22 01:22
schestowitz	320,000,000	May 22 01:22
schestowitz	Cerd said 150,000,000 in 2006	May 22 01:22
schestowitz	Geer said more like 100,000,000 around the same time	May 22 01:23
schestowitz	320,000,000 is a 2008 figure	May 22 01:23
tessier	Not at all surprising.	May 22 01:23
schestowitz	Shocking --yes	May 22 01:23
schestowitz	It would inciate panic	May 22 01:23
schestowitz	Had people known this better	May 22 01:23
schestowitz	3 respectable sources	May 22 01:23
schestowitz	Secunia (2008, around december): 99% of Windows is ripe for hijacking	May 22 01:24
schestowitz	As in, not fully patched	May 22 01:24
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schestowitz	The big 2008 remote access vuln cost a lot. All versions affected, silent hijacking, no user intervention.	May 22 01:25
schestowitz	Conficker was one symptom among more	May 22 01:25
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schestowitz	Anyway, about the BBC, it's the tip of the iceberg	May 22 01:26
schestowitz	Going back to 2006 when they swapped staff with Microsoft and blocked Linux, said only 600 people in the UK use Linux (!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!1), and so on... you'd get the picture given more context	May 22 01:27
schestowitz	Ashley Highfield (BBC chief at the time... now... Microsoft employee!): ""We have 17.1 million users of bbc.co.uk in the UK and, as far as our server logs can make out, 5 per cent of those [use Macs] and around 400 to 600 are Linux users."	May 22 01:28
tessier	So far nothing has cost anyone so much that anyone really gave a care.	May 22 01:30
tessier	You know my favorite vulnerability? VOIP vulnerabilities.	May 22 01:30
tessier	Because when someone gets into your PRI and makes international calls it COSTS BIG TIME.	May 22 01:31
tessier	And you lock that shit down.	May 22 01:31
tessier	I know someone who got a $100,000 bill that way.	May 22 01:31
schestowitz	Did you hear about Asterisk?	May 22 01:31
schestowitz	It got exploited briefly	May 22 01:31
schestowitz	IIRC the FBI stepped in	May 22 01:31
schestowitz	About 3 months ago	May 22 01:31
schestowitz	At the time, the latest version was already secure, so they needed to prod people so that they upgrade	May 22 01:32
_Hicham_	gn	May 22 01:34
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neonfloss	http://www.blogpirate.org/2009/05/22/wikipedia-to-adopt-creative-commons-license/	May 22 01:34
schestowitz	neonfloss: thanks, added	May 22 01:35
tacone	uh	May 22 01:35
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tessier	I heard.	May 22 01:36
neonfloss	added?	May 22 01:37
tessier	.004% Linux desktop market share in .uk! Go team!	May 22 01:37
schestowitz	:-(	May 22 01:37
schestowitz	Preinstalls of Linux are 3% here	May 22 01:37
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tessier	I bet that is an old figure. Netbooks have changed things.	May 22 01:38
schestowitz	Yes	May 22 01:38
schestowitz	And I don't buy preinstalled	May 22 01:38
schestowitz	I get empty HDD so that I choose my own distro	May 22 01:38
schestowitz	I currently have 3 Ubuntus and 1 Mandriva	May 22 01:38
schestowitz	At the clusters it's all Fedora	May 22 01:38
tessier	Tonight I may be installing Linux over an XP laptop.	May 22 01:40
tessier	That's one more license MS will continue to count and one Linux install that won't be counted.	May 22 01:40
schestowitz	Dual-boots mess the numbers	May 22 01:40
schestowitz	At the faculty all PCs are set up with dual	May 22 01:41
schestowitz	IPs count as Windows	May 22 01:41
neonfloss	schestowitz, do you think software piracy is hurting open source software?	May 22 01:43
schestowitz	The larger deployments are in places like brazl BTW	May 22 01:43
schestowitz	With market share of maybe >50% for purchased PCs and installed based of around 10%	May 22 01:44
tessier	neonfloss: I think it is. It removes one of the many incentives to use FOSS.	May 22 01:44
schestowitz	Some people replace Linux with counterfeited Windows	May 22 01:44
schestowitz	But many stay with GNU/Linux. People from Brazil say so and Microsoft's leakes Comes docs concur	May 22 01:44
neonfloss	tessier, true	May 22 01:44
tessier	It was very hard to get people interested in Linux in Vietnam	May 22 01:44
tessier	There are CD shops there where you can go buy a copy of anything you want for $1	May 22 01:45
neonfloss	tessier, but I only found out about FOSS through pirating. now I dont pirate software anymore	May 22 01:45
schestowitz	Had Microsoft charged for Linux in Brazil, it would have IBM take over Brazil's computing	May 22 01:45
schestowitz	*Charged for Windows	May 22 01:45
schestowitz	tessier: did you see the charity story?	May 22 01:45
schestowitz	MS gets boycotted	May 22 01:45
schestowitz	It wants money	May 22 01:45
schestowitz	From poor charities amid economic slump. it was in the news. Suddenly Redmond is not content with 'free' Windows.	May 22 01:46
schestowitz	Microsoft charity crackdown spurs boycott < http://news.idg.no/cw/art.cfm?id=63B8D6DC-1A64-6A71-CE239976114D2137 >	May 22 01:47
tessier	No, I didn't. Cool.	May 22 01:48
tessier	A friend of mine just received a letter from the BSA for his company.	May 22 01:48
tessier	He has been working on moving to Linux for a few years. This might hasten it. But they need some CAD software etc.	May 22 01:48
schestowitz	Wine?	May 22 01:49
schestowitz	It got a lot better	May 22 01:49
schestowitz	Google works on it too. It's in its interest.	May 22 01:49
tessier	Wine won't help with their illegal copies of Solidworks.	May 22 01:50
tessier	It's not just windows but the apps themselves they have to get licensed.	May 22 01:50
tessier	I gotta head home. I'm at the office now. ttyl	May 22 01:50
schestowitz	Thanks	May 22 01:53
schestowitz	Just one thing	May 22 01:53
schestowitz	See this: http://www.firmenpresse.de/pressrelease1816.html	May 22 01:53
schestowitz	It's recent and the numbers are staggering	May 22 01:53
schestowitz	Huge number of Linux users in Europe use it	May 22 01:54
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oiaohm	http://blogs.zdnet.com/microsoft/?p=2845 MS needs some new lawyers.	May 22 02:41
schestowitz	Why does zdnet still use p-ids?	May 22 02:42
schestowitz	Yeah, I saw this one earlier	May 22 02:42
schestowitz	Was gonna mention it tomorrow	May 22 02:42
schestowitz	Now I'll do some daily links. Joy!	May 22 02:42
schestowitz	BTW, BN runs in a VM now	May 22 02:42
schestowitz	tessier moved it to a containment	May 22 02:43
tacone	nice	May 22 02:44
oiaohm	http://microsoftontheissues.com/cs/blogs/mscorp/archive/2009/05/21/why-hold-a-hearing-in-the-eu-if-key-decision-makers-are-unable-to-attend.aspx The MS url.	May 22 02:44
oiaohm	why should a court case be allowed to work as advertisement.	May 22 02:45
oiaohm	And why should a court case be run to the time line of the defendant.	May 22 02:45
oiaohm	Bad timing stiff.	May 22 02:45
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schestowitz	chttp://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MeSSwKffj9o	May 22 03:12
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chips_b_malroy	Roy are you still up?	May 22 03:52
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chips_b_malroy	Ok, its different time on the other side of the pond. Still, got some information 4 u on the ddos. I emailed it to Goblin, but it needs to be PM to you. Not for a public log. And Goblin is not too good about checking his email.	May 22 03:55
chips_b_malroy	there are two emails I sent goblin, he needs both	May 22 04:00
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schestowitz	I'm here	May 22 04:01
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oiaohm	http://arstechnica.com/microsoft/news/2009/05/microsoft-blocks-messenger-in-us-embargoed-countries.ars This is something nasty.	May 22 04:27
twitter	so, I wonder what "mal roy" has to say.	May 22 04:29
twitter	that can't be said in public. hmph.	May 22 04:29
twitter	ohm, this is not the first time M$ has engaged in censorship http://slashdot.org/~twitter/journal/182515	May 22 04:30
oiaohm	Difference here is this one is a trade embargoed. Question is could this ever apply to activation servers	May 22 04:32
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twitter	You do not know if M$ is only applying this lame "trade" embargo. It is likely they apply all forms of censorship to all accounts.	May 22 04:33
oiaohm	The problem I have if what MS is doing here USA goverment takes as what it is allowed to do. How bad will it end up. Lot of USA trade embargos have not been applied on the web.	May 22 04:38
oiaohm	Censorship is 1 thing. Distrubting peoples means to do business is something else.	May 22 04:38
twitter	M$ censored Truthout for political reasons and refused to listen to the wishes of either Truthout or their customers using the mail services M$ owns.	May 22 04:40
twitter	It is not surprising that they use US laws as an excuse to break yet more communications.	May 22 04:40
oiaohm	I am more worried if USA goverment starts trying to apply that against Non MS.	May 22 04:41
twitter	It would be a shame if they forced their idiotic decision on all software companies.	May 22 04:41
twitter	Free software faces all sorts of restrictions, and has faced even more in the past.	May 22 04:42
oiaohm	Exactly why I called it something nasty.	May 22 04:42
twitter	Encryption export restrictions, DeCSS bans and other idiotic laws have all harmed both free and non free software makers	May 22 04:42
twitter	ESR predicted M$ would try to claim free software is terrorism.	May 22 04:43
twitter	I think they will fail before they screw things up too badly.	May 22 04:44
oiaohm	Some of the MS supporters are starting to wake up how much trouble MS is in.	May 22 04:45
twitter	export restrictions on encryption, for example, were lifted long ago after the US government realized that it only harmed US interests.	May 22 04:45
twitter	It is about time that M$ people realized that non free software is a dead end.	May 22 04:46
twitter	The less money M$ has, the less trouble they will be able to make. Their failure can not come soon enough.	May 22 04:46
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oiaohm	There still would be too soon.	May 22 05:12
oiaohm	twitter: if the process of migration a way from MS products is not sorted out there failure could cause major chaos.	May 22 05:12
twitter	Past and continued use of M$ crap has created more trouble than use of any free software.	May 22 05:13
twitter	I think 8 years of XP failure is more than enough and that clear migration paths exist.	May 22 05:14
twitter	M$ has tried to block those paths with changes in both Windows and file formats, but Vista failed. Now is a better time to migrate out than ever.	May 22 05:15
twitter	and migration to GNU/Linux is easier than Vista/Windows7 migration.	May 22 05:15
twitter	The Pooch has been screwed.	May 22 05:15
twitter	Roy is doing a nice job collecting Rise of GNU/Linux Desktop stories	May 22 05:18
twitter	These are good news for everyone.	May 22 05:19
oiaohm	There are still gaps.	May 22 05:23
oiaohm	Some of it is working out how to get funding into the gaps.	May 22 05:23
oiaohm	More migrations more funding it to weak areas as well.	May 22 05:24
twitter	There are very few categories of workers who actually need Winblows. The time to move the majority is now.	May 22 05:24
oiaohm	Accountany software in some countries is lacking.	May 22 05:24
twitter	The larger the community is, the quicker problems get solved.	May 22 05:24
oiaohm	Video production tools and some audio tools still need work.	May 22 05:25
twitter	GNU Cash is a good accounting package and older stuff, like PeachTree probably works better under Wine than Window anyway.	May 22 05:25
oiaohm	GNU Cash is not configured for everywhere.	May 22 05:26
oiaohm	There are gaps.	May 22 05:26
twitter	Cinerella and blender are professional grade video media tools.	May 22 05:26
oiaohm	Blender has funding.	May 22 05:26
oiaohm	Its making good progress.	May 22 05:26
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twitter	Hollywood is a big user of GNU/Linux already, so that "gap" in a minority use area is actually filled in both senses	May 22 05:27
oiaohm	Cinerella. They really need to copy blender lead and run a like a move create of there own.	May 22 05:27
oiaohm	There are a few workflow issues in it.	May 22 05:27
twitter	GNU Cash can be configured for everyone a lot easier than non free software.	May 22 05:28
twitter	The movie editing issues are of little concern to the vast majority of users and programs like Kino meet their needs.	May 22 05:28
oiaohm	twitter: template issue with GNU Cash.	May 22 05:28
twitter	Those who really care and need to make professional grade videos can learn the expert tools.	May 22 05:29
oiaohm	Professional grade needs good workflow.	May 22 05:29
oiaohm	Each blender movie has found defects in its workflow and put action in place to fix it.	May 22 05:29
twitter	What would you have people use, Ohm?	May 22 05:30
oiaohm	Basically a bit more focus on QA could lift a lot of Open Source programs up.	May 22 05:30
oiaohm	And a bit more focus on making sure of market coverage.	May 22 05:31
oiaohm	Gaps most are not massive.	May 22 05:31
oiaohm	But those gaps can cause people who are starting out trouble.	May 22 05:31
oiaohm	Blenders having to replace the complete interface system to fix a workflow problem was massive.	May 22 05:32
twitter	I don't think any of the problems you mention are a real barrier to IT roll outs of free software, or any excuse to roll out Vista 7 instead.	May 22 05:33
twitter	Successful deployments of GNU/Linux right here in Redmond, WA attest to free software being more than ready.	May 22 05:33
oiaohm	Its basically the less painful the migration is the more who will do it.	May 22 05:34
twitter	GNU/Linux is far less painful than Vista or Windows 7	May 22 05:35
oiaohm	Migration to Windows 7 is not what you are going to be painless.	May 22 05:35
oiaohm	So a lot will try staying with XP as long as possiable.	May 22 05:35
twitter	sticking to XP is impossible	May 22 05:35
twitter	plans need to be laid now to avoid Vista chaos	May 22 05:36
oiaohm	Up until 2 years ago I was still finding windows 3.11 in places.	May 22 05:36
oiaohm	Ways for businesses to have what they need painless as able need to be done.	May 22 05:37
oiaohm	Linux servers appearing in the small business market will be a help.	May 22 05:37
twitter	Sticking with Windows is as painful as computing can be.	May 22 05:38
oiaohm	There is worse.	May 22 05:38
oiaohm	Most painful I know is old dos based points of sale.	May 22 05:39
oiaohm	Yes some businesses still use them.	May 22 05:39
twitter	dosbox could fix their hardware problems	May 22 05:40
twitter	even they are good candidates for free software migration	May 22 05:40
twitter	M$ stabbed them in the back a decade ago	May 22 05:40
oiaohm	Normally closed source dos with no specs on fileformat.	May 22 05:41
oiaohm	So migration to new bit of software is fun.	May 22 05:41
oiaohm	Emulation is not a solution you really want to use unless you have to twitter.	May 22 05:42
twitter	sounds like most games and dosbox deals with them better than Vista will	May 22 05:42
twitter	you are right, it would be better to ask IBM for a nice system instead	May 22 05:42
twitter	like this http://maps.google.com/maps?f=q&source=s_q&hl=en&geocode=&q=Lowes,+redmond+washington&sll=37.0625,-95.677068&sspn=24.455808,52.558594&ie=UTF8&ei=sS4WSqbVLYjqjQOk1KDwCw&sig2=DBgtzJRD5dWLJ-v1uIbFnw&cd=1&cid=47630940,-122182066,6463291867562539280&li=lmd&ll=47.655675,-122.14016&spn=0.101753,0.214233&z=12	May 22 05:42
twitter	I wonder how many M$ employees have used GNU/Linux in that store	May 22 05:43
twitter	They seem to have moved rather well to an all GNU/Linux environment what 8 years ago?	May 22 05:43
oiaohm	There migration was speed over many years.	May 22 05:44
oiaohm	They did not convert everyone at once.	May 22 05:44
twitter	So? The solution will work for anyone.	May 22 05:44
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oiaohm	To a point.	May 22 05:44
twitter	Every computer in the store is not GNU/Linux.	May 22 05:44
twitter	Go look for yourself.	May 22 05:45
oiaohm	IBM had the resources to write any software they required to make it work.	May 22 05:45
twitter	Employees will even let you pull up an xterm and play for a while.	May 22 05:45
Carl_Rover2k12	twitter: what computer store ever sells computers with Linux on them btw, aside from enterprise class systems	May 22 05:45
twitter	Target.	May 22 05:45
oiaohm	So they could close all the gaps they had themselfs twitter.	May 22 05:45
twitter	go buy a EEE PC and give it to your 4 year old.	May 22 05:46
Carl_Rover2k12	oiaohm: IBM is too busy peddling AIX on their PPC workstations	May 22 05:46
Carl_Rover2k12	twitter: I thought most EEEs moved on to Windoze now	May 22 05:46
twitter	Not the ones that people buy, rover	May 22 05:46
twitter	Asus suffered a big revenue drop on that mistake.	May 22 05:47
Carl_Rover2k12	twitter: I remember a point when there were plenty of Linux netbooks and even computers like GreenPC as well as that "G OS" thing but they disapeared from shelves once XP machines flooded the outlets	May 22 05:47
oiaohm	All EEE are supported to run Linux or Windows. Windows version still has a Linux fast start option.	May 22 05:47
Carl_Rover2k12	oiaohm: so thats once exception, but it is far from the nomr sadly	May 22 05:47
twitter	The story of what M$ did to GNU/Linux (your GOS) at Walmart is well covered by anti-trust documents and BN, rover.	May 22 05:48
twitter	It's been a money loser for retailers.	May 22 05:48
Carl_Rover2k12	twitter: but it still doesn't make a difference how much they lost, its gone from shelves now	May 22 05:48
oiaohm	Linux has not really lost.	May 22 05:48
twitter	it may not matter to you or M$, but money losses matter to retailers.	May 22 05:49
oiaohm	MS is really make a loss on every netbook with XP on.	May 22 05:49
twitter	they are not going to make the same mistakes	May 22 05:49
Carl_Rover2k12	oiaohm: the only glimmer of hope is that Dell is once more planning to offer the option to get Ubuntu v8.04 for their computers through their online retail	May 22 05:49
oiaohm	Most people notice the trial version of Office on them.	May 22 05:49
twitter	no Vista 7 channel stuffing for the survivors	May 22 05:49
oiaohm	That MS pays the OEM more than what the OEM pays for XP.	May 22 05:50
twitter	computer stores will have to adapt to the GNU reality or they will fail.	May 22 05:50
Carl_Rover2k12	oiaohm: but M$ still makes it back through their Office Suite	May 22 05:50
oiaohm	Not really.	May 22 05:50
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twitter	M$ can't keep giving software and bribes away forever	May 22 05:50
twitter	they are losing their ass	May 22 05:50
oiaohm	MS down 30+ percent of there income did you not ask how that could happen.	May 22 05:51
twitter	going into debt.	May 22 05:51
Carl_Rover2k12	twitter: they can if people plan on purchasing updates for their Office software among other things	May 22 05:51
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oiaohm	Thinking that redhat and other companies are up.	May 22 05:51
Carl_Rover2k12	twitter: its like the video game console or printer market	May 22 05:51
tacone	http://www.linux-magazine.com/online/news/microsoft_patent_more_money_for_less_functions	May 22 05:51
twitter	people hate the new office, it's a bigger failure than Vista	May 22 05:51
tacone	pretty nice	May 22 05:51
oiaohm	There really was not a downturn in most of the software world.	May 22 05:51
twitter	M$ is swirling down the toilet	May 22 05:52
oiaohm	The complete downturn MS has is self caused.	May 22 05:52
Carl_Rover2k12	twitter: people still buy new M$ Office though for the added functions and the thought that they need to keep up to state with "standardized" formats of the "business world"	May 22 05:52
twitter	yes, but loss of large clients like big dumb banks and retail partners make their downturn even worse, hopeless even.	May 22 05:53
Carl_Rover2k12	twitter: don't sit back and gloat any small setback from M$, its still a really large company that can bounce back within years	May 22 05:53
twitter	You live in a different world from me Rover	May 22 05:53
Carl_Rover2k12	twitter: don't you learn anything from Sun Tzu?	May 22 05:53
oiaohm	Rover have you seen how many deparment MS has given up.	May 22 05:53
oiaohm	Linux is doing Sun Tzu	May 22 05:53
oiaohm	Its no the ammount of land you hold its the tatical importance.	May 22 05:54
twitter	I see a big dumb company that can't change taking on debt and firing people	May 22 05:54
Carl_Rover2k12	oiaohm: but twitter seems to forget one: " "Never underestimate your opponent."	May 22 05:54
oiaohm	I have not.	May 22 05:54
oiaohm	How do you increase the price of your OS. When the OS you are competign with is free.	May 22 05:54
twitter	I use Windows every day. My estimation of M$'s fate is optimistic if anything.	May 22 05:55
oiaohm	You have to be way better right.	May 22 05:55
Carl_Rover2k12	oiaohm: so they shaved off a couple of departments. IBM shut down their whole entire PC building subsidiary and sold off the remaining trademarks like "ThinkPad." Now they are back in enterprise and stronger than ever	May 22 05:55
oiaohm	MS is not so the netbook market OS price is locked at bugger all.	May 22 05:55
twitter	M$ has no such fallbacks	May 22 05:55
oiaohm	IBM did more than shaved a few departments.	May 22 05:55
twitter	none that make any money	May 22 05:55
oiaohm	Large ammount of IBM income comes from renting buildings.	May 22 05:56
Carl_Rover2k12	oiaohm: true they did make an overhaul of their entire corporate foolosophy and makeup	May 22 05:56
oiaohm	IBM had factories to move there head offices into.	May 22 05:56
twitter	M$ is incapable of such things	May 22 05:56
Carl_Rover2k12	twitter: yes they are, they have buildings around the world	May 22 05:56
oiaohm	So they could rent there head offices for great income.	May 22 05:56
Carl_Rover2k12	twitter: they can sell off portions of their campus	May 22 05:56
twitter	Ha	May 22 05:57
oiaohm	MS has builds but they lack the extras to move thre offices.	May 22 05:57
twitter	There's a real estate glut up here, Rover.	May 22 05:57
oiaohm	You still need the space.	May 22 05:57
oiaohm	IBM came back stronger but its nothing like it was.	May 22 05:57
twitter	Maybe M$ can put a toll house on their new bridge and charge more money for their private mall.	May 22 05:57
twitter	lol	May 22 05:57
Carl_Rover2k12	twitter: and at any moment it can turn around because 0bama's adminstration is enable the treasuring to allow banks to continue throwing money at realestate, but thats another issue entirely	May 22 05:58
oiaohm	Microsoft if it lives threw the same conversion it will be nothing like it was.	May 22 05:58
Carl_Rover2k12	oiaohm: it certainly won't but it can still dominate business apps	May 22 05:58
twitter	If M$ becomes a free software company, everyone will be happy.	May 22 05:58
oiaohm	IBM Orcale NAS builder are going to come after MS SBS.	May 22 05:58
twitter	But they won't be able to keep up the monopoly rents in any case	May 22 05:58
oiaohm	With intergrated solutions.	May 22 05:58
oiaohm	Remember intergrated solutions come with all the business apps most businesses need without needing to pay MS a cent.	May 22 05:59
Carl_Rover2k12	oiaohm: Oracle has problems of its own with the potential of their newly aquired MySQL to be forked to pieces	May 22 05:59
twitter	competing free software service providers are better for everyone than M$'s boxed crap	May 22 05:59
oiaohm	Oracle intergrated solutions don't depend on Mysql.	May 22 05:59
twitter	Oracle's problems are of no concern to anyone besides Oracle.	May 22 05:59
twitter	MySQL will survive in any case.	May 22 06:00
Carl_Rover2k12	oiaohm: they need some sort of repo standard to update by	May 22 06:00
oiaohm	Mysql is nothing more than a minor annonacye to a company Oracles size.	May 22 06:00
oiaohm	Oracle is way bigger than MS.	May 22 06:00
oiaohm	If oracle stoped aquiring companies for 3 years they would have enough money in the aquiring company fund to by MS out.	May 22 06:00
twitter	This has been interesting, but there's nothing new here. Good night.	May 22 06:01
Carl_Rover2k12	ciao	May 22 06:01
oiaohm	Catch you around twitter.	May 22 06:01
Carl_Rover2k12	oiaohm: I doubt it M$'s market cap is $230 billion	May 22 06:01
Carl_Rover2k12	Oracle is 4.1 billion	May 22 06:02
oiaohm	Ok 4 years.	May 22 06:02
oiaohm	Oracle spends 60 billion a year on company aquirements.	May 22 06:02
Carl_Rover2k12	oiaohm: M$ can probably do the same and wind up a behemouth that would make them an easier target for anti-trust legislation	May 22 06:03
Carl_Rover2k12	but they rather spend on killing the source instead	May 22 06:03
oiaohm	Oracle market cap does not show its true value.	May 22 06:03
Carl_Rover2k12	oiaohm: same could have been said about Sun Micro, and look what happened to them	May 22 06:04
oiaohm	Sun Mirco was not causing there market cap to be low by aquiring companies.	May 22 06:04
Carl_Rover2k12	oiaohm: assets don't mater when you are measuring publicly traded value	May 22 06:04
Carl_Rover2k12	oiaohm: its what percentage of capital a company holds that translates to earnings	May 22 06:05
Carl_Rover2k12	oiaohm: perhaps Commodore Business Machines could be still around today if that weren't the case	May 22 06:06
oiaohm	So far this year Orcale has aquired 4 companies.	May 22 06:06
Carl_Rover2k12	oiaohm: but that will just translate to growing their marketshare, while on the flip end it negatively impacts their earnings and thus dividends to shareholders	May 22 06:06
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oiaohm	Thing is Oracle dividends don't change.	May 22 06:07
Carl_Rover2k12	oiaohm: and that is only the case if whatever they purchase is lucrative	May 22 06:07
Carl_Rover2k12	oiaohm: if its not then its just a lose leader	May 22 06:07
oiaohm	Due to these aquires if anything they grow.	May 22 06:07
oiaohm	They don't have debt.	May 22 06:07
oiaohm	Look are orcale numbers.	May 22 06:08
Carl_Rover2k12	oiaohm: they probably have shown there latest fiscal books	May 22 06:08
oiaohm	Orcale 2002 huge ammounts of money nothing much to do with it. So started buying.	May 22 06:08
Carl_Rover2k12	oiaohm: I hope everything that Oracle aquired from Sun and others translates to good revenue not only for the share's sake but also for everyone working there	May 22 06:08
oiaohm	And has not stoped since.	May 22 06:08
Carl_Rover2k12	oiaohm: they are buying because they hope to corner the datacenter and enterprise software market	May 22 06:09
oiaohm	That complete time there return to shareholders has grown.	May 22 06:09
oiaohm	Exactly	May 22 06:09
oiaohm	They are buy and growing there income Carl_Rover2k12	May 22 06:09
oiaohm	The buying is hiding how much it has grown.	May 22 06:10
Carl_Rover2k12	oiaohm: Oracle still hasn't reached the value they had in 2000-2001 though	May 22 06:10
Carl_Rover2k12	oiaohm: or they are buying in a race of time to aquire potentially good assets for a cheap price because they are afraid what they have now may become obsolete	May 22 06:10
Carl_Rover2k12	or they just want to no longer worry about paying licensing fees for their Java based apps too	May 22 06:11
oiaohm	Sun aquirement Orcale expects to give shareholders slightly higher returns.	May 22 06:11
oiaohm	With compete to end to end solutions.	May 22 06:12
oiaohm	Orcale need someone with production plants.	May 22 06:12
Carl_Rover2k12	oiaohm: but it means much more in creating new markets for Oracle to get into, thus growing their marketshare. Such rapid buy overs only hype shares for a brief amount of time before the expenses shown make them plumet.	May 22 06:12
Carl_Rover2k12	oiaohm: production plants for what?	May 22 06:13
Carl_Rover2k12	oiaohm: running your own production plants is a really expensive endeavor unless you corner the market like Intel	May 22 06:13
oiaohm	Production servers with there software already installed sold to customer as a complete item.	May 22 06:13
Carl_Rover2k12	oiaohm: that can be done cheaper by licencing the schematics to a 3rd party	May 22 06:14
Carl_Rover2k12	oiaohm: why else has AMD spun off their foundries	May 22 06:14
oiaohm	AMD had no option on spinning off there foundries.	May 22 06:15
Carl_Rover2k12	oiaohm: also if they wanted foundries for chips in the US they could just contract IBM to help forge them, IBM's plants are some of the most advanced in the world	May 22 06:15
oiaohm	IBM and Orcale compete directly with each other.	May 22 06:15
oiaohm	In particular markets.	May 22 06:15
Carl_Rover2k12	oiaohm: so then who's option was it, the shareholders, as far as I can tell all publically traded companies have to eventually answer to shareholders	May 22 06:15
Carl_Rover2k12	oiaohm: so what if they compete, IBM would know a lucrative deal if they came across one and it would prevent them from getting any anti-trust flac	May 22 06:16
oiaohm	Sun was not making a lose when Orcale aquired them either.	May 22 06:18
oiaohm	Orcale does not aquire loss making companies.	May 22 06:18
Carl_Rover2k12	oiaohm: Sun wasn't? http://news.yahoo.com/s/nm/20090428/bs_nm/us_sunmicro	May 22 06:18
oiaohm	Get the brake down of parts Orcale was interested in. Customers had backed off SUN due to fear not due to poor products. One of those customers was Orcale themselves.	May 22 06:22
oiaohm	You do expect customers to back off a company aiming to be aquired.	May 22 06:23
Carl_Rover2k12	oiaohm: fair enough, but lets take a look at their outlook prior to announcement of wanting to be aquired: http://www.nytimes.com/2008/10/31/technology/companies/31sun.html?n=Top/News/Business/Companies/Sun%20Microsystems%20Inc.	May 22 06:26
oiaohm	Remember Orcale first attempted to just aquire the hardware side.	May 22 06:27
Carl_Rover2k12	oiaohm: which was the only part showing any growth	May 22 06:27
oiaohm	Exactly.	May 22 06:27
oiaohm	That was the only bit Orcale wanted.	May 22 06:27
oiaohm	Its bit like a junk box with something you know is valueable to your company.	May 22 06:28
oiaohm	And person will not sell you the valueable item unless you take the box.	May 22 06:28
Carl_Rover2k12	oiaohm: hopefully Oracle embraces Solaris though, its a great OS despite the existence of Linux	May 22 06:29
oiaohm	Mysql was no interest to Orcale so what ever happen will not worrying them too much.	May 22 06:29
Carl_Rover2k12	oiaohm: but its still a problem for those who use Sun software and have become dependent on it for their repo	May 22 06:30
_boo_	does anyone know what is gonna happen with sun developers?	May 22 06:30
oiaohm	Many ideas exist.	May 22 06:30
Carl_Rover2k12	_boo_: which Sun developers, you got the software and hardware ones	May 22 06:30
_boo_	they are worried	May 22 06:30
oiaohm	Orcale might spin off a few foundations.	May 22 06:30
_boo_	Carl_Rover2k12, software	May 22 06:30
Carl_Rover2k12	_boo_: well all the job cuts or layoffs probably already occured by now	May 22 06:30
_boo_	so no more cuts?	May 22 06:31
Carl_Rover2k12	_boo_: not sure	May 22 06:31
_boo_	i'm not sure that cuts already were performed	May 22 06:31
oiaohm	Sun also had basically alreadly fire all there market department.	May 22 06:31
Carl_Rover2k12	_boo_: if more do happen, it will be for entirely new reasons	May 22 06:31
oiaohm	So there sales being down before aquirement was to be expected.	May 22 06:31
_boo_	i care only about software developers in sun	May 22 06:32
Carl_Rover2k12	oiaohm: their marketing didn't do most of the sales for Sun, it was their technical service team that did	May 22 06:32
Carl_Rover2k12	oiaohm: have you seen a Sun commercial recently?	May 22 06:32
oiaohm	Sun had cleared lot of overlapping staff.	May 22 06:33
Carl_Rover2k12	_boo_: Oracle's cheif executive did outline Solaris and Java one of the main outlying reasons for their aqusition: http://www.nytimes.com/2009/04/21/technology/companies/21sun.html even though their Ultra-SPARC hardware was the one really bringing in the earnings.	May 22 06:33
oiaohm	How the technical service team upsells was planed.	May 22 06:33
Carl_Rover2k12	oiaohm: well Sun did sell most of their stuff to their existing customers	May 22 06:34
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Carl_Rover2k12	oiaohm: and more were created through word of mouth then anything else	May 22 06:34
Carl_Rover2k12	created= gotten	May 22 06:35
oiaohm	Also any ideas how mcuh of Orcales stack of software depends on java.	May 22 06:35
oiaohm	You are talking around 80 percent of Orcale sales have something java in it.	May 22 06:36
Carl_Rover2k12	oiaohm: I heard most of their datatel relied on Java	May 22 06:36
_boo_	thanks, Carl_Rover2k12	May 22 06:36
oiaohm	So that going to someone hostile to them could be a major problem.	May 22 06:36
Carl_Rover2k12	oiaohm: yep	May 22 06:36
oiaohm	Sun was a tatical and profitable aquirement if managed right.	May 22 06:36
Carl_Rover2k12	oiaohm: Sun was pretty leanient on software licensing because they relied more on hardware sales	May 22 06:37
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Carl_Rover2k12	or at least that is how their formers execs thought	May 22 06:37
Carl_Rover2k12	they figured their software would attract customers to their hardware	May 22 06:37
oiaohm	Orcale is able to recover the cost of buying sun from suns income in about 3 years.	May 22 06:38
oiaohm	If they can manage it right.	May 22 06:38
oiaohm	Orcale will be doing both. Using there software to attract hardware sales and using hardware sales to attact software sales.	May 22 06:39
oiaohm	Like IBM does now.	May 22 06:39
Carl_Rover2k12	oiaohm: don't get me wrong I like much of how Sun ran stuff, it helped grow innovation not only within their product line but also benefited other developers through joint projects with the open source community. Unfortunately, the shareholders didn't	May 22 06:39
Carl_Rover2k12	oiaohm: but they will have to license the software in such a way that will please shareholders, but it won't be good for open source imo	May 22 06:40
oiaohm	Orcale also runs some joint projects with the open source community.	May 22 06:40
oiaohm	They have just been more blanced about it.	May 22 06:40
Carl_Rover2k12	oiaohm: but they may attach more stringent TOS aggrements and not follow GPL guidelines like IBM	May 22 06:41
oiaohm	Orcale follows the licences to the letter.	May 22 06:41
Carl_Rover2k12	oiaohm: they will surely try to squash any forks of their software if they can't aquire it into their own	May 22 06:41
oiaohm	Not always.	May 22 06:42
Carl_Rover2k12	oiaohm: but will they now with all these new assets, they didn't have to worry as much before with a lighter load	May 22 06:42
oiaohm	Orcale has had projects they had before forked away from them.	May 22 06:42
oiaohm	They class it as the nature of Open Source.	May 22 06:42
oiaohm	Orcale point of view if you don't give customer what they want and the program is open source expect it forked away from you.	May 22 06:44
oiaohm	People don't fork something normally unless they are unhappy with it for some reason.	May 22 06:45
_boo_	for good reason	May 22 06:45
oiaohm	Orcale and Cisco systems have lots in common. They don't try to kill invention instead try to support it. In the hope that they can harvest useful bits to sell to customers.	May 22 06:47
oiaohm	Orcale could have killed of Mysql years ago if they had wanted to.	May 22 06:48
oiaohm	Orcale had control of key bits of software Mysql depended on to operate.	May 22 06:48
_boo_	isn't mysql still used?	May 22 06:48
oiaohm	mysql is still being used.	May 22 06:49
Carl_Rover2k12	oiaohm: and now MySQL maybe forked again and one of the forks may have a considerable following because one of the former lead developers from the original is behind it	May 22 06:50
Carl_Rover2k12	oiaohm: and now since Oracle presides over the entire MySQL language, they may look at things a bit differently with preasure from their shareholders	May 22 06:51
oiaohm	Never know with orcale they might aquire the lead developer back.	May 22 06:52
oiaohm	We will find out more after the transfer of operation.	May 22 06:53
Carl_Rover2k12	oiaohm: you seem to be very optimistic, do you have shares in Oracle?	May 22 06:53
oiaohm	I know the history Carl_Rover2k12 I don't have shared.	May 22 06:53
oiaohm	Mysql and Orcale have shared some backend parts.	May 22 06:53
oiaohm	So there lead developers talking to each other has been nothing strange when there are problems in the back end.	May 22 06:54
oiaohm	Its never been what you call hostile releationship.	May 22 06:55
oiaohm	Oracle history of aquired companies says they will keep exactly what they are doing under wraps until they are ready to do it.	May 22 06:56
oiaohm	Some of that history includes spinning parts they don't want into foundations.	May 22 06:57
Carl_Rover2k12	oiaohm: I hope you are right, with your knowedge why aren't you investing in Oracle then?	May 22 06:57
oiaohm	Tax	May 22 06:57
oiaohm	I have other investments that give me about the same return without tax bill.	May 22 06:58
Carl_Rover2k12	oiaohm: you hedge?	May 22 07:00
oiaohm	I am Australian not USA.	May 22 07:02
oiaohm	Investing the the USA market I don't get any tax offsets to the income so have to pay ful tax on it.	May 22 07:02
oiaohm	Just say warped Australian tax laws Carl_Rover2k12	May 22 07:04
Carl_Rover2k12	oiaohm: btw, did those website blacklisting laws get shot down yet?	May 22 07:05
oiaohm	One minor issue it was not a new law to force them being applied.	May 22 07:06
oiaohm	It was just a policy change.	May 22 07:06
oiaohm	So far policy has not been approved.	May 22 07:06
oiaohm	We have this http://www.acma.gov.au	May 22 07:07
oiaohm	You use basically any form of electronic comumication you come under there control.	May 22 07:07
oiaohm	They have had the power to enforce censorship under law for a long time.	May 22 07:08
oiaohm	http://www.acma.gov.au/WEB/STANDARD/pc=PC_90102 Yes they do have the power to shut down any site in Australia hosting the content they were ment to be blacklisting.	May 22 07:10
Carl_Rover2k12	oiaohm: thats pretty alien concept to us Uhmericans, the FTC can only shutdown media if it is prooven that it has broken any false advertising guidelines (which are rather loose) or is prooven to be outright fraudulent. And that only occurs if enough complaints are submited	May 22 07:13
Carl_Rover2k12	oiaohm: I guess there are pros and cons to everything	May 22 07:13
oiaohm	acma has blacklisted some pritty stupid things over time.	May 22 07:14
Carl_Rover2k12	oiaohm: yea, I read about a Dentist's site being blacklisted because someone hijacked it to secretly post a childporn link in one of the urls.	May 22 07:15
Carl_Rover2k12	oiaohm: and repealing a blacklist is very hard if not impossible right?	May 22 07:15
oiaohm	Problem is the blacklist is secret.	May 22 07:16
oiaohm	If you can work out you are on it.	May 22 07:16
oiaohm	Appealing it is simple.	May 22 07:16
oiaohm	And getting self removed is simple.	May 22 07:16
oiaohm	They don't even bother emailing the site admin to tell the site admin they have been blacklisted.	May 22 07:17
oiaohm	This is what has so many up in arms.	May 22 07:17
_boo_	someone gotta crack m$ site and post child porn in there	May 22 07:18
oiaohm	Policy would have been good if they had something like a site that you could punch in a URL and find out if its black listed or not.	May 22 07:21
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oiaohm	No need to really publish the complete blacklist but people running sites kinda need to know when they have been black listed incase the blacklisting is invalid.	May 22 07:21
Carl_Rover2k12	oiaohm: thats certainly a big problem, ecspecially for a government agency that is supposed to be within a democracy	May 22 07:22
Carl_Rover2k12	oiaohm: but sometimes I got to wonder if a reprisentative in most nations is now only to entitled to reprisent those who pay more to them	May 22 07:22
oiaohm	http://www.asio.gov.au/ are	May 22 07:22
oiaohm	worse they can hold you 7 days without charge.	May 22 07:23
oiaohm	And if they get a judges to sign off every 7 days they could in theory hold you for ever without charge.	May 22 07:23
oiaohm	Only advantage what ever you say in that 7 days cannot be used in a court of law.	May 22 07:24
oiaohm	We don't have bill of rights here.	May 22 07:26
Carl_Rover2k12	oiaohm: so then what exactly does Australia have to ensure personal liberties?	May 22 07:30
Carl_Rover2k12	oiaohm: I guess its more typical for other republics, like in France, that the government provide and protect the liberties, then for the indivisual to feel expected they must always fight for it.	May 22 07:33
Carl_Rover2k12	oiaohm: except what you sited is an example of adversary based appeal upon a prosecution	May 22 07:33
oiaohm	We have anti descrimintation laws. That is about as far as personal liberties protection goes.	May 22 07:35
oiaohm	Basically they would have to treat everyone equally crap.	May 22 07:36
Carl_Rover2k12	oiaohm: except those who have been already prosecuted	May 22 07:38
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oiaohm	All prosecutions can be applead. Due processes have to be followed. Now bending law can land on the side of anti descrimitation very quicky.	May 22 07:40
Carl_Rover2k12	oiaohm: so you are hoping that helps overturn any perminent ban on websites and other mediums?	May 22 07:42
oiaohm	Due process has to be followed so any ban on anything can be applead if you know about it.	May 22 07:45
Carl_Rover2k12	oiaohm: I meant that there should be an appeals process for every action the government may take against an indivisual so long as it is not involving a felony, and with the current anti-discrimination laws in place that the government is obligated to hold a fair trial for anyone	May 22 07:45
oiaohm	anti-discrimination basically sees to it.	May 22 07:46
oiaohm	Because other wise you could not applead or alter any ruling.	May 22 07:47
oiaohm	Law here does not protect privacy.	May 22 07:49
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oiaohm	There are some covering what companyes and the like can handlin in privacy Carl_Rover2k12 But when it comes to investage the defence becomes memory loss.	May 22 07:52
Carl_Rover2k12	oiaohm: so I guess lobbying buys there way into Australian law too	May 22 07:54
oiaohm	To a point.	May 22 07:55
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oiaohm	Regional coding is illegal here under free trade rules of Australia.	May 22 07:55
oiaohm	It also falls under the basic anti descrimitnation laws of Australia.	May 22 07:56
oiaohm	There are limits on how far lobbying can go in australian laws due to the anti descrimintaiton base.	May 22 07:57
Carl_Rover2k12	oiaohm: interesting I guess American law makers can learn a thing or two in combating certain corporate favortism in such a way that doesn't outline specifically targeting them	May 22 07:58
Carl_Rover2k12	but then again it is a doubled edged sword like how you have been telling me before	May 22 08:07
Carl_Rover2k12	anyway I should probably get some sleep now	May 22 08:07
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Omar871	Guys, you gotta check this out: http://tinyurl.com/paara6	May 22 08:37
oiaohm	Your url is kind broken Omar871	May 22 09:03
Omar871	http://www.networkworld.com/cgi-bin/mailto/x.cgi?pagetosend=/export/home/httpd/htdocs/news/2009/052109-ex-microsoftie-free-software-will-kill.html&pagename=/news/2009/052109-ex-microsoftie-free-software-will-kill.html&pageurl=http://www.networkworld.	May 22 09:03
oiaohm	http://www.networkworld.com/news/2009/052109-ex-microsoftie-free-software-will-kill.html << This is the link that works.	May 22 09:04
oiaohm	networkworld mailto has always been a trap.	May 22 09:04
schestowitz	Old news...	May 22 09:35
MinceR	geekings	May 22 09:36
schestowitz	I have some good posts to start the day with	May 22 09:41
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uncle_pockets	This thing looks dead...anyone here?	May 22 10:14
MinceR	braaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaains	May 22 10:15
uncle_pockets	you selling or giving away for free?	May 22 10:15
uncle_pockets	I see that went right over your pointy head, MinceR..BTW idiotic nym you have.Maked you sound like some kind of dog food or something.	May 22 10:18
uncle_pockets	Makes...	May 22 10:18
uncle_pockets	Oh well this channel is dead....BTW how's the DDoS going? BWAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAa!	May 22 10:18
uncle_pockets	Bye....	May 22 10:18
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MinceR	good riddance.	May 22 10:19
oiaohm	Sometimes it lucky on IRC that a person its not on the computer next to you.	May 22 10:27
schestowitz	Yeah.	May 22 10:29
schestowitz	I missed it	May 22 10:29
MinceR	indeed	May 22 10:30
oiaohm	http://www.itbusiness.ca/it/client/en/home/news.asp?id=53225 I guess you have seen the netbook shipping with malware included.	May 22 10:32
schestowitz	Didn't pay attention until now... Companies Created by Former Microsoft Employees Rally Around Novell, (Pseud)Open Source < http://boycottnovell.com/2009/05/22/companies-to-watch-out-for/ >	May 22 10:34
schestowitz	Haha.	May 22 10:34
schestowitz	It happened before, oiaohm	May 22 10:34
schestowitz	Like last year	May 22 10:34
schestowitz	There were jokes about it, too	May 22 10:34
oiaohm	Catch is its happening more and more.	May 22 10:36
oiaohm	From many different vendors. So basically you cannot trust a machine to be clean out box.	May 22 10:36
*schestowitz does an article about Australia		May 22 10:40
schestowitz	Are you OK with: "Oiaohm, who points to this page from Microsoft’s lobbying Web site, asks: “Why should a court case be allowed to work as advertisement? And why should a court case be run to the time line of the defendant?”"	May 22 10:40
oiaohm	That artical was about EU.	May 22 10:42
oiaohm	Fine with the line.	May 22 10:42
schestowitz	Yes, but you'll see	May 22 10:49
schestowitz	It's not the main sstory	May 22 10:49
Omar871	Guys, don't you think that the Free Software community is an urgent need for more community events that can compete with the one's arranged by Microsoft? (E.g: Imagine Cup)	May 22 11:41
Omar871	is in an urgent need.	May 22 11:41
MinceR	those would be nice.	May 22 11:49
schestowitz	If Flash is More Open Than Moonlight, Does That Make Microsoft Moonlight Proprietary? < http://boycottnovell.com/2009/05/22/moonlight-proprietary-codecs-debate/ >	May 22 11:51
schestowitz	Omar871: agreed	May 22 11:51
schestowitz	Do we not have enough?	May 22 11:51
Omar871	schestowitz: I'm not sure we do.	May 22 11:51
schestowitz	Microsoft "community events" are as much about community as Bush to democracy	May 22 11:52
schestowitz	Omar871: does Red Hat have presence in Jordan?	May 22 11:52
Omar871	schestowitz: The most famous one is the GSoC. Not sure if we have anything else.	May 22 11:52
MinceR	FLOSS needs presence in hungary.	May 22 11:53
Omar871	schestowitz: Yeah, there's a company, that I can't remember the name of, that offers RedHat support and certifications.	May 22 11:54
Omar871	schestowitz: Other than that, my friend is working on establishing an Open Source Society in Jordan.	May 22 11:55
Omar871	schestowitz: I'll try to convince him to name it: Free Software Society in Jordan.	May 22 11:56
Omar871	schestowitz: Agreed.	May 22 12:04
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schestowitz	Microsoft is Again Paying the Huge Price for Wanting Anti-Free Software Laws < http://boycottnovell.com/2009/05/22/microsoft-is-stung-by-software-patents/ >	May 22 12:13
schestowitz	ushimitsudoki: there?	May 22 12:13
schestowitz	See the latest post about Moonlight	May 22 12:13
schestowitz	It links to DownloadSquad	May 22 12:13
schestowitz	Maybe you can spread it further: http://www.downloadsquad.com/2009/05/19/flash-isnt-going-open-source-but-it-may-already-be-more-open-t/	May 22 12:14
schestowitz	Omar871: sorry, got distracted	May 22 12:14
schestowitz	MinceR: they made some FOSS promises recently. Just PR?	May 22 12:14
MinceR	perhaps	May 22 12:14
MinceR	i don't think i've managed to decode them	May 22 12:14
schestowitz	Omar871: you can ask Linux companies for help or sponsorship to run events	May 22 12:14
MinceR	my reading says they said they'll spend 12 MHUF on m$ and novell and 12 MHUF on FLOSS	May 22 12:15
schestowitz	They might help you provided you put up a banner	May 22 12:15
MinceR	but it's possible that it's 12 on m$ and 12 on novell	May 22 12:15
schestowitz	MinceR: yes, "Novell". I remember.	May 22 12:15
schestowitz	It's like the fake debate	May 22 12:15
MinceR	also, it might be something "based on open standards" instead of FLOSS	May 22 12:15
schestowitz	Over the wrong issue	May 22 12:15
schestowitz	FOSS vs CSS: Novell vs Microsoft?	May 22 12:15
schestowitz	Argument over 'war' in Iraq: Obama vs Bush?	May 22 12:16
schestowitz	Nope.	May 22 12:16
schestowitz	Maybe Kucinich/Paul vs Bush	May 22 12:16
schestowitz	Choose left or right, get the same thing	May 22 12:16
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oiaohm	Omar871: name it both.	May 22 12:25
oiaohm	Some markets respond well to free software others responed better to open source.	May 22 12:26
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Omar871	oiaohm: True.	May 22 12:30
oiaohm	There is nothing against a enity having 2 names.	May 22 12:31
schestowitz	Quote of the Day: “Microsoft Doesn’t Follow Standards, They Create Them.” < http://boycottnovell.com/2009/05/22/microsoft-does-not-follow-standards/ >	May 22 12:32
oiaohm	Becides it makes some interesting debates at times with the different points of view of free software and open source supporters.	May 22 12:32
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tacone	omg, i wrote a post at 4 am and 2 people already copy-pasted it on their blog	May 22 12:37
schestowitz	LOL	May 22 12:38
tacone	one of them is one guy i also quite respect	May 22 12:38
tacone	gosh	May 22 12:38
schestowitz	http://lunduke.com/?p=526&cpage=1#comment-3117 "Brian, if you value your reputation as a serious contributor, don’t draw attention to the LHB blog. If I didn’t know any better, I would suspect you of attempting to direct traffic to that site under the pretext of some kind of bogus controversy. And if you really want to know just who writes LHB then why not ask his good friend Miguel."	May 22 12:39
schestowitz	http://pastebin.com/f1e04f482	May 22 12:39
schestowitz	> Hey, lighten up! LHB is not about hating linux, it’s just satire - art, if you will	May 22 12:40
schestowitz	LHB is about pissing all over the Open Source community, anyone by association with that blog also gets tarnished. Anyone reading that blog would run like hell. Oh, wait	May 22 12:40
schestowitz	> I don’t see why he has to give up his name. Why? So he can be found and fucked by the freetards?	May 22 12:40
schestowitz	He’s happy to attack other people personally, goose gander etc ..	May 22 12:40
schestowitz	> The Linux Hater is actually, a Linux fan. How else could he actually know AND explain all the bugs in Linux?	May 22 12:40
schestowitz	Or who ever writes his material for him. Possible the Microsoft Lunux lab	May 22 12:40
schestowitz	--	May 22 12:41
schestowitz	A friend of mine said: "He's now talking up a fake controversy with LHB, he is curious as to who this asnonymous blogger is. I posted and asked why not ask Miguel :) "	May 22 12:41
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tacone	i won't comment. imho he just has been trolled	May 22 12:41
schestowitz	Bryan Lunduke fake spat with Linux Hater http://lunduke.com/?p=526	May 22 12:41
schestowitz	tacone: tacone: who was trolled	May 22 12:41
tacone	attracting lhb traffic to his site would be utterly stupid. that would not be good traffic	May 22 12:41
schestowitz	Friend says: "Lhater is classic, sound like it could have been written by flatfish(s), it;s the combination of abuse and technical issues. And dropping in a 'freetard' and a 'crapware' every so often. See here where Lunduke is talking up a fake disagreement with Hhater. So we have both Lunduke and de Icaza both drawing attention to it. Time for a call to 'out' Lhater."	May 22 12:42
schestowitz	I don't want to blog this	May 22 12:42
schestowitz	I was asked to	May 22 12:42
schestowitz	But it would only feed both guys	May 22 12:42
schestowitz	LHB and Bryan Lunduke	May 22 12:42
schestowitz	The "Linux sucks" people	May 22 12:42
schestowitz	Linux Hater, Bryan Lunduke, and Freedom < http://jakedth.tumblr.com/post/110392665/linux-hater-bryan-lunduke-and-freedom > "To suggest such unified development for the sake of being like the rest, is to restrict people’s personal tastes and freedoms."	May 22 12:43
schestowitz	Even their readers don't disagree with their FUD	May 22 12:43
tacone	http://www.stefanoforenza.com/lost-in-paris-roundup/	May 22 12:43
schestowitz	Lundumb < http://blogbeebe.blogspot.com/2009/05/lundork.html >	May 22 12:43
schestowitz	tacone: what's there? New comments?	May 22 12:43
oiaohm	lunduke is a lot like me. Ok neither of us really hate Linux. But lot of things annoy the hell out of us.	May 22 12:43
oiaohm	Linux Hater started out with good detailed articals on things and slowly gone down hill as topics disappeared.	May 22 12:44
schestowitz	http://hardware.slashdot.org/article.pl?sid=09/05/15/0647254 (New York Times Wipes Journalist's Online Corpus)	May 22 12:44
schestowitz	I got some more about censorship	May 22 12:44
oiaohm	Its like as if another ghost writer provided his information.	May 22 12:44
tacone	nothing. me writing about him having been trolled	May 22 12:44
schestowitz	And I was shown example of censorship where MS was involved	May 22 12:45
tacone	he also posted a follow up, btw. an unuseful one.	May 22 12:45
schestowitz	Regarding lost archive, that reader says: "Not me, it was a long time ago, I posted the before one, went back to have another look and it was changed. It seems to be a common occurrence where they lose the archive when moving house. :) "	May 22 12:46
schestowitz	He was censored by the "Linux haters"	May 22 12:46
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oiaohm	Dividing and merge happens through open source history.	May 22 12:55
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toros	hi	May 22 12:58
toros	are you under DDoS attack again?	May 22 12:58
toros	the site is pretty slow now... :(	May 22 12:58
schestowitz	Yes, I hear..	May 22 12:59
schestowitz	Let me check	May 22 12:59
schestowitz	Heavy load	May 22 13:00
schestowitz	But I have no access to logs	May 22 13:00
schestowitz	Let me check	May 22 13:00
schestowitz	oad average: 1.54, 1.25, 1.32	May 22 13:02
schestowitz	[boycottn@boycottnovell log]$ uptime	May 22 13:02
schestowitz	12847 apache 16 0 279m 61m 976 S 0.0 6.0 2:41.16 httpd	May 22 13:02
schestowitz	11787 mysql 16 0 267m 52m 3288 S 0.0 5.1 20:33.59 mysqld	May 22 13:02
schestowitz	13336 apache 15 0 258m 40m 2644 S 0.0 4.0 2:34.76 httpd	May 22 13:02
schestowitz	12850 apache 15 0 258m 40m 1876 S 0.0 4.0 2:31.57 httpd	May 22 13:02
schestowitz	12862 apache 15 0 259m 40m 1336 S 0.0 3.9 2:46.30 httpd	May 22 13:02
schestowitz	14609 apache 16 0 257m 39m 2532 S 0.0 3.9 2:22.29 httpd	May 22 13:02
schestowitz	16293 apache 15 0 258m 39m 1808 S 0.0 3.9 1:45.92 httpd	May 22 13:02
schestowitz	12863 apache 16 0 258m 39m 972 S 0.0 3.9 2:30.98 httpd	May 22 13:02
schestowitz	12845 apache 15 0 258m 39m 976 S 0.0 3.8 2:34.88 httpd	May 22 13:02
schestowitz	12844 apache 15 0 257m 39m 1888 S 0.0 3.8 2:43.28 httpd	May 22 13:02
schestowitz	12860 apache 15 0 257m 38m 1576 S 0.0 3.8 2:36.94 httpd	May 22 13:02
schestowitz	24687 apache 16 0 257m 38m 1988 S 0.0 3.8 0:26.21 httpd	May 22 13:02
schestowitz	12846 apache 15 0 257m 38m 1472 S 0.0 3.8 2:38.52 httpd	May 22 13:02
schestowitz	12849 apache 15 0 258m 38m 976 S 0.0 3.8 2:39.50 httpd	May 22 13:02
schestowitz	12864 apache 15 0 257m 38m 1468 S 0.0 3.8 2:31.29 httpd	May 22 13:02
schestowitz	12843 apache 15 0 257m 38m 972 S 0.0 3.7 2:39.33 httpd	May 22 13:02
schestowitz	16181 apache 15 0 257m 37m 984 S 0.0 3.7 1:57.76 httpd	May 22 13:02
Omar871	Guys, I really feel sad when I hear that one of my friends are participating in Imagin Cup... :(	May 22 13:02
tacone	gosh	May 22 13:02
schestowitz	We have filtering enables (iptables firewall), but it looks like it MIGHT be an effect of something	May 22 13:02
Omar871	is participating..	May 22 13:02
tacone	it seems a normal load to me	May 22 13:02
schestowitz	Yes	May 22 13:03
schestowitz	But someone in identica just told me it took him a minute to load a page	May 22 13:03
schestowitz	"I reckon your hits are spiking @schestowitz. I had to wait over 45 secs for some pages."	May 22 13:03
schestowitz	Where is my apache log?	May 22 13:03
schestowitz	/log/var/http* requires root	May 22 13:03
schestowitz	And I can't su	May 22 13:03
oiaohm	For me its strange.	May 22 13:04
oiaohm	I stop trying to access boycott novell for about 60 seconds then try again and everythign is good.	May 22 13:04
schestowitz	How to access apache log... ?	May 22 13:05
tacone	you can't.	May 22 13:06
tacone	you can't ask tessier to put you in the adm group if you're on a debian	May 22 13:06
tacone	or do some trick to let you read the logs nextime	May 22 13:07
tacone	but i doubt you'll be able to read them now	May 22 13:07
schestowitz	Yes, we're not there yet	May 22 13:07
tacone	schestowitz: weren't you on a VM, though ?	May 22 13:07
schestowitz	I also need an outgoing mail server for notifications	May 22 13:07
schestowitz	tacone: yes	May 22 13:07
tacone	you don't have the root on that BM ?	May 22 13:08
tacone	VM	May 22 13:08
schestowitz	I do	May 22 13:08
schestowitz	Let me retry	May 22 13:08
oiaohm	You don't have ~/.log in your home dir by any chance.	May 22 13:08
tacone	try with sudo su -	May 22 13:08
oiaohm	Normally when I setup apache with users I place the log for there site in there account.	May 22 13:08
schestowitz	[boycottn@boycottnovell ~]$ cd ~/.log	May 22 13:08
schestowitz	-bash: cd: /home/boycottn/.log: No such file or directory	May 22 13:08
oiaohm	Opps ~/.logs	May 22 13:09
oiaohm	Left a s off.	May 22 13:09
tacone	bb	May 22 13:11
schestowitz	I got in	May 22 13:12
oiaohm	Thanks for reminding me that I need to do log cleaning on this machine.	May 22 13:12
schestowitz	I'd need to process the logs	May 22 13:12
oiaohm	Only have not done it for 7 years.	May 22 13:12
oiaohm	Upgrades and all in that time.	May 22 13:12
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schestowitz	OK, I see stats now	May 22 13:20
schestowitz	Many errors from last night	May 22 13:21
schestowitz	After DNS switchover	May 22 13:21
schestowitz	2700 UIPs in 13 hours	May 22 13:21
schestowitz	Downtime messed up with Google listings AFAIK	May 22 13:21
oiaohm	Yep DNS switchover does cause hickups.	May 22 13:22
Omar871	There's a question that I've been asking myself for sometime..	May 22 13:26
schestowitz	The logs compressed were 50MB for the first half of May	May 22 13:27
Omar871	Free software-based webistes, how do they develop the animated parts of their websites if they don't use Adobe Flash?	May 22 13:27
schestowitz	Omar871: many ways	May 22 13:27
schestowitz	gifs	May 22 13:27
schestowitz	Or even JS	May 22 13:27
oiaohm	javascript can do a lot.	May 22 13:28
schestowitz	There's also tricks one can do with SVG	May 22 13:28
schestowitz	But MS won't support SVG	May 22 13:28
schestowitz	Everyone does but MS	May 22 13:28
schestowitz	it wants you to use Microsoft Silverlight ot Microsoft Moonlight	May 22 13:28
schestowitz	Omar871: search for SVG+JS demos	May 22 13:28
oiaohm	http://www.nihilogic.dk/labs/wolf/ Right threw to playing 3d games.	May 22 13:29
schestowitz	It's amazing what can be achieved	May 22 13:29
oiaohm	In javascript.	May 22 13:29
schestowitz	MS screws JS too	May 22 13:29
oiaohm	IE don't work.	May 22 13:29
toros	Omar871: for video, they can use the "video" tag	May 22 13:30
toros	and include ogg videos	May 22 13:30
schestowitz	I do	May 22 13:31
toros	the next firefox release will support it	May 22 13:31
schestowitz	Then people complain it ain't valid XHTML	May 22 13:31
toros	schestowitz: I know :)	May 22 13:31
Omar871	cool!	May 22 13:31
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_Hicham_	Hi oiaohm	May 22 13:31
Omar871	schestowitz: Actually, if there's anything they should complain about is IE's complete disobedience to the W3C standards. :)	May 22 13:32
_Hicham_	السلام عليكم و رحمة الله تعالى و بركاته يا سيد عمر	May 22 13:32
oiaohm	Hi _Hicham_	May 22 13:32
Omar871	_Hicham_: و عليكم السلام و رحمة الله و بركاته سيد هشام	May 22 13:33
_Hicham_	oiaohm : do u use the Nouveau driver?	May 22 13:34
oiaohm	No it don't run with my Nvidia card anywhere near good enough.	May 22 13:34
oiaohm	Remember I do run blender the cpu and video card breaking application.	May 22 13:34
_Hicham_	so u use the proprietary one?	May 22 13:35
oiaohm	Kinda have to.	May 22 13:35
oiaohm	Even then its a pain.	May 22 13:35
oiaohm	Because only particular versions of it work.	May 22 13:35
_Hicham_	do u think that Nouveau can replace the proprietary one in the near future?	May 22 13:35
oiaohm	Not near.	May 22 13:36
oiaohm	I might end up swaping my card to ATI.	May 22 13:36
_Hicham_	the latest Nvidia driver doesn't support all previous cards?	May 22 13:36
_Hicham_	r2xx to r5xx work great with open source driver	May 22 13:36
oiaohm	Nvidia driver has many break points.	May 22 13:36
_Hicham_	does the proprietary driver support KMS?	May 22 13:36
oiaohm	Nop.	May 22 13:37
oiaohm	No KMS with Nvidia closed source drivers.	May 22 13:37
_Hicham_	I heard that some chipsets support KMS with Nouveau	May 22 13:37
oiaohm	I need the opengl support.	May 22 13:38
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schestowitz	load average: 3.03, 1.99, 1.51	May 22 13:38
schestowitz	Don't know what's causing it	May 22 13:39
_Hicham_	is it another beginning of a ddos?	May 22 13:39
schestowitz	Probably not	May 22 13:39
_Hicham_	oiaohm : no opengl support with nv and nouveau?	May 22 13:40
schestowitz	I've just done a comprehensive file comparison	May 22 13:40
schestowitz	To ensure all files and data are in tact	May 22 13:40
schestowitz	All clear, but I am using a package called "visitors" to view stats	May 22 13:41
oiaohm	You don't know blender _Hicham_	May 22 13:41
schestowitz	It's Free softwaare	May 22 13:41
schestowitz	oiaohm: do you know "Visitors"?	May 22 13:41
schestowitz	Anything better than awstats?	May 22 13:41
schestowitz	For analysing error logs too?	May 22 13:41
schestowitz	urchin is now Google spyware	May 22 13:41
schestowitz	And not FOSS	May 22 13:41
oiaohm	Particularly with the new game engine _Hicham_ it gets nasty on card.	May 22 13:41
oiaohm	Have not tried Visitors	May 22 13:42
schestowitz	http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&rlz=1B5GGGL_enGB315GB316&c2coff=1&ei=46AWSv62AsPMjAfvwKH0DA&sa=X&oi=spell&resnum=0&ct=result&cd=1&q=free+software+apache+statistics&spell=1	May 22 13:42
schestowitz	oiaohm: I downloaded it like 4 years ago	May 22 13:42
_Hicham_	I don't use blender	May 22 13:42
schestowitz	Its main merit is that it dissects things deeper	May 22 13:42
_Hicham_	I use OpenGL with Gtk	May 22 13:42
_Hicham_	and I am having a problem right now with	May 22 13:42
_Hicham_	though the situation have improved now	May 22 13:43
_Hicham_	with xserver 1.6	May 22 13:43
oiaohm	Hmm Visitors has a nice graphic.	May 22 13:43
schestowitz	http://www.sawmill.net/dcforum/DCForumID5/441.html	May 22 13:43
schestowitz	oiaohm: what do Winders uses use?	May 22 13:43
_Hicham_	I am trying to send key presses to three opengl areas	May 22 13:44
_Hicham_	but I have a problem is refreshing the areas	May 22 13:44
_Hicham_	only the first created area is refreshed	May 22 13:44
_Hicham_	the other got refreshed on other events	May 22 13:45
oiaohm	Me most of the time I use awstats most windows admins seam not to bother with stats.	May 22 13:46
schestowitz	Hehe. Someone just told me that the guys who choose Microsoft for the UK government and London don't like me	May 22 13:46
schestowitz	They mentioned my name specifically.	May 22 13:46
schestowitz	Heh. They really should be angry at Mark Ballard, who did most of the investigative work. Some Microsoft GMs mention me too because they don't like me (so I've heard)	May 22 13:46
schestowitz	oiaohm: Windows servers I understand don't come with free stats s/w	May 22 13:47
schestowitz	They are asked to BUY some	May 22 13:47
schestowitz	Typical Windows	May 22 13:47
schestowitz	Comes with Solitaire and defrag	May 22 13:47
oiaohm	awstats works on windows.	May 22 13:47
_Hicham_	oiaohm : any idea?	May 22 13:47
_Hicham_	fuck Windows	May 22 13:47
schestowitz	Everything else needs you pulling a credit car	May 22 13:47
_Hicham_	any idea?	May 22 13:47
schestowitz	oiaohm: I know	May 22 13:47
schestowitz	But it's not as integrated to it as cpanel	May 22 13:47
schestowitz	I saw some forum messages some years back	May 22 13:48
oiaohm	The drivers for ATI are not what you call perfect yet _Hicham_	May 22 13:48
schestowitz	http://www.google.com/urchin/download.html	May 22 13:48
_Hicham_	well, at least for me	May 22 13:48
schestowitz	or implementation assistance and to purchase a serial code, please contact an Urchin Software Authorized Consultant.	May 22 13:48
_Hicham_	radeon is working great	May 22 13:48
schestowitz	Blech	May 22 13:49
schestowitz	Serial code	May 22 13:49
_Hicham_	Schestowitz Software Inc. , alias SSI	May 22 13:49
oiaohm	Funny part I have sold the setup of awstats to windows admins.	May 22 13:49
_Hicham_	all kinds of software	May 22 13:49
_Hicham_	for no fee	May 22 13:49
oiaohm	Yes thick buggers. I get to make money off free software from them.	May 22 13:50
schestowitz	WTF?	May 22 13:50
schestowitz	187MB	May 22 13:50
schestowitz	For Urchin for GNU/Linux	May 22 13:50
_Hicham_	187 MB of what?	May 22 13:50
schestowitz	oiaohm: that's services	May 22 13:50
schestowitz	How money is made with freedom respected	May 22 13:50
schestowitz	Code=free	May 22 13:50
schestowitz	Audio=free	May 22 13:51
schestowitz	Performance=not free	May 22 13:51
schestowitz	Human attention=not free	May 22 13:51
schestowitz	_Hicham_: the download of Urchin	May 22 13:51
schestowitz	It's proprietary	May 22 13:51
schestowitz	And it's not free (gratis) AFAIK	May 22 13:51
schestowitz	Maybe it's for old customer	May 22 13:51
schestowitz	*s	May 22 13:52
schestowitz	When Google bought them	May 22 13:52
schestowitz	But Google has no STORE for it	May 22 13:52
schestowitz	So it must be legacy	May 22 13:52
schestowitz	They just want people to permit spying	May 22 13:52
schestowitz	Urchin->Google Analytics	May 22 13:52
schestowitz	=spyware	May 22 13:52
oiaohm	When they ring you up to buy it again they are thick buggers.	May 22 13:53
oiaohm	Because they have installed a new server.	May 22 13:53
oiaohm	People wonder why MS network get broken into it is the quality of the staff.	May 22 13:53
_Hicham_	we can make good money with free software	May 22 13:54
schestowitz	This is complicated to set up	May 22 13:54
schestowitz	Involved mysql stuff	May 22 13:54
_Hicham_	always look for the RedHat way	May 22 13:54
schestowitz	Cmes with big manual	May 22 13:54
schestowitz	This stuff is heavy	May 22 13:55
_Hicham_	mysql is standard	May 22 13:55
schestowitz	700MB for the software uncompressed	May 22 13:55
_Hicham_	nothing can be done without mysql	May 22 13:55
schestowitz	http://www.google.com/urchin/index.html "Urchin Software from Google is supported exclusively through Urchin Software Authorized Consultants"	May 22 13:56
oiaohm	http://www.mrunix.net/webalizer/ This one is highly useful when running squid schestowitz	May 22 13:56
schestowitz	_Hicham_: yes, but it's not an Apache analyser	May 22 13:56
schestowitz	It digs very deep into the server op	May 22 13:56
schestowitz	oiaohm: I have Webalizer	May 22 13:56
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schestowitz	Used it since 2001	May 22 13:56
oiaohm	It is true to label insanely light to use.	May 22 13:57
schestowitz	"The demo license is good for 30 days. You do not need to reinstall the software if you decide to purchase a permanent license. "	May 22 13:57
schestowitz	Anyway, it was interetsing to see what it's about	May 22 13:57
schestowitz	700MB	May 22 13:57
schestowitz	WIndows/BSD/Linux	May 22 13:57
oiaohm	urchin is not the most expensive out there.	May 22 13:58
schestowitz	I think I might just give up on checking usage	May 22 13:58
schestowitz	Not worth the effort	May 22 13:58
oiaohm	There is a hunting one I love fully 3d display.	May 22 13:58
schestowitz	I stopped checking my other sites years ago, having done so daily	May 22 13:58
schestowitz	It doesn't help the writing in any way	May 22 13:58
oiaohm	Ie geo back trace.	May 22 13:59
oiaohm	Some day I have to build either blender or kde marble.	May 22 14:01
schestowitz	top - 06:17:22 up 1 day, 8:48, 2 users, load average: 2.06, 1.65, 1.59	May 22 14:03
schestowitz	Tasks: 91 total, 2 running, 89 sleeping, 0 stopped, 0 zombie	May 22 14:03
schestowitz	Cpu(s): 7.9%us, 1.7%sy, 0.0%ni, 7.3%id, 82.8%wa, 0.0%hi, 0.0%si, 0.3%st	May 22 14:03
schestowitz	Mem: 1048576k total, 1043208k used, 5368k free, 768k buffers	May 22 14:03
schestowitz	Swap: 0k total, 0k used, 0k free, 112032k cached	May 22 14:03
schestowitz	Is this normal for a VM?	May 22 14:03
schestowitz	It takes up all the RAM	May 22 14:03
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oiaohm	Linux by nature will use all ram for something.	May 22 14:04
oiaohm	Ie disk cache....	May 22 14:04
oiaohm	No swap file usage means no stress.	May 22 14:04
oiaohm	Normally I have a swap file or part in a virtual machine.	May 22 14:05
schestowitz	Is Alastair Otter doing MS press releases now? http://www.tectonic.co.za/?p=2435	May 22 14:06
schestowitz	Wow. Again Alastair Otter prods the Microsoft party line on ODF < http://www.tectonic.co.za/?p=4800 >, but why?	May 22 14:08
schestowitz	Then he posts this: Microsoft’s ODF support is broken, says alliance < http://www.tectonic.co.za/?p=4806 >	May 22 14:09
schestowitz	"The open-source house boasts that over the last four years, more than 8,000 developers have built more than 12,000 add-ons for its Firefox browser." http://www.theregister.co.uk/2009/05/22/mozilla_jetpack/	May 22 14:11
schestowitz	Here it goes again: DDoS attack chokes Chinese net surfing < http://www.theregister.co.uk/2009/05/21/chinese_ddos_attacks/ >	May 22 14:12
tacone	http://www.psychocats.net/ubuntucat/software-installation-in-linux-is-difficult/	May 22 14:18
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trmanco	another good arse kick for moonight -> http://www.downloadsquad.com/2009/05/19/flash-isnt-going-open-source-but-it-may-already-be-more-open-t/	May 22 14:20
schestowitz	trmanco: yes, posted about it this morning	May 22 14:25
schestowitz	it's good that people are catching up	May 22 14:25
schestowitz	trmanco: haven't seen the comments yet, but they probably attack him	May 22 14:25
schestowitz	(the Mono 'crusade' that is)	May 22 14:26
tacone	lol	May 22 14:27
trmanco	yeah	May 22 14:28
schestowitz	Microsoft suspends DC in Iowa, Google builds one. Ah! The irony!111 http://www.webpronews.com/topnews/2009/05/21/google-opens-iowa-data-center	May 22 14:36
schestowitz	Hehe. "Stitchup is annoyed with XX... and XX... and you... and pretty much anyone who doesn't think the sun shines out of his arse or that he hasn't sold the UK Public Sector down the drain to a huge, vicious, multipli-convicted serial monopolist..."	May 22 14:38
schestowitz	very funny	May 22 14:38
schestowitz	I have always been very polite when writing about "Stitchup". Some people told me that putting a mirror in front of a person sometimes makes then furious.	May 22 14:38
tacone	lol !	May 22 14:39
tacone	schestowitz: when the EU gave the pdf to Marco Cappato, they asked him not to publish it	May 22 14:40
tacone	so EU didn't really made it public for purpouse	May 22 14:40
schestowitz	Nifty: Alleged Nokia Linux smartphone plans exposed by leak http://arstechnica.com/open-source/news/2009/05/alleged-nokia-linux-smartphone-plans-exposed-by-leak.ars	May 22 14:40
schestowitz	tacone: yes, I know	May 22 14:40
schestowitz	it's the same with me	May 22 14:40
tacone	I didn't know !	May 22 14:40
schestowitz	I have asked for MONTHS for a document	May 22 14:40
schestowitz	They break the law	May 22 14:40
tacone	i thought they finally released it.	May 22 14:40
schestowitz	Transparency Directive	May 22 14:41
schestowitz	I should mail them again	May 22 14:41
schestowitz	I even show them the directive	May 22 14:41
schestowitz	They just bring more colleagues into CCs	May 22 14:41
schestowitz	No, they didn't release it	May 22 14:41
tacone	if they affirm they lost the document, they should be held liable for loosing documentation.	May 22 14:41
schestowitz	They pretend they don't know WHAT	May 22 14:41
tacone	they should be held liable of not knowing WHAT :)	May 22 14:42
schestowitz	Lars Hindkjær Pedersen	May 22 14:42
schestowitz	main gatekeeper	May 22 14:42
schestowitz	tacone: let me do a post about it	May 22 14:42
schestowitz	I forgot about it	May 22 14:42
tacone	lol	May 22 14:42
tacone	ok, I'll let you :)	May 22 14:43
tacone	fuck. another copypaste of my post	May 22 14:43
tacone	i'm getting tired of that	May 22 14:43
schestowitz	"I am out of the office from the 6th of April 2009 to the 20th of April 2009."	May 22 14:44
tacone	and they removed the rickroll	May 22 14:44
schestowitz	FOSS people in parliament use this to pressure them	May 22 14:44
schestowitz	"I am out of the office from the 6th of April 2009 to the 20th of April 2009."	May 22 14:45
schestowitz	"European Commission - DG Information Society and Media"	May 22 14:45
schestowitz	You'd think the European Commission would be supportive of FOSS	May 22 14:45
schestowitz	Not just apprehensive wrt MS	May 22 14:45
oiaohm	I would not be supprised if that nokia leak is not coping MS leaks.	May 22 14:51
oiaohm	its still a good marketing stunt.	May 22 14:51
schestowitz	tacone: I've just mailed them again	May 22 14:52
schestowitz	Next stop: Ombudsman	May 22 14:53
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schestowitz	Yahoo! wants some social networks: http://www.paidcontent.org/entry/419-yahoo-is-looking-to-buy-a-social-network/	May 22 14:56
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tacone	they failed building any.	May 22 15:05
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schestowitz	tacone: did they try?	May 22 15:05
schestowitz	MS failed too	May 22 15:05
schestowitz	What was it even called?	May 22 15:06
schestowitz	I can't remember now	May 22 15:06
schestowitz	It was spammed since day 1	May 22 15:06
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tacone	dunno	May 22 15:06
schestowitz	Is Digg still a worth target for anyone? it's declining	May 22 15:06
schestowitz	I no longer use it muc	May 22 15:06
schestowitz	*much	May 22 15:06
tacone	it sucks	May 22 15:07
tacone	i do much better with reddit	May 22 15:07
tacone	even fsdaily brings more than digg	May 22 15:07
schestowitz	Obama plans more open government http://news.bbc.co.uk/go/rss/-/1/hi/technology/8063040.stm What does open mean? He hides ACTA.	May 22 15:07
tacone	brb	May 22 15:08
MinceR	digg is a forum for crApple cultists.	May 22 15:08
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schestowitz	tacone: fsdaily unless FP, right?	May 22 15:08
schestowitz	Digg's FP is a knocker	May 22 15:08
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schestowitz	Pornographic videos flood YouTube < http://news.bbc.co.uk/go/rss/-/1/hi/uk/8061979.stm >	May 22 15:08
schestowitz	Does that go under bad news or good news?	May 22 15:09
MinceR	it goes under "so what?" :>	May 22 15:09
MinceR	pr0n has always been easy to find	May 22 15:09
DaemonFC	I'm writing an open letter to Live :P	May 22 15:09
schestowitz	This could be an attempt to put YT in blacklists	May 22 15:10
MinceR	like they say, "the internet is for porn"	May 22 15:10
schestowitz	DaemonFC: open letter to die	May 22 15:10
DaemonFC	no, the internet is for porn advertising malware	May 22 15:10
schestowitz	Aka "suicide letter"	May 22 15:10
DaemonFC	automatically forwarding itself over Windows Live Messenger	May 22 15:10
DaemonFC	but then since so many people have Yahoo contacts in it too, it gets over onto their network	May 22 15:10
DaemonFC	so even if you use Pidgin you get spammed eventually	May 22 15:11
schestowitz	UK 'worst electrical recycler' < http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/technology/8063115.stm >	May 22 15:11
schestowitz	Someone just sent me this:	May 22 15:11
schestowitz	"See this registered charity, they donate 'free' computers to the third world. Except they charge a 'handling' fee of £42.00 per PC plus shipping charge of £72 per PC. That's £19,705 for a 40ft container. This is surprising as they get the PCs for free and the refurbishment is done by people on the dole, who are paid £10:00 a day expenses. It don't sound very free to me." http://www.computeraid.org/TechnicalSpecs.htm	May 22 15:11
schestowitz	It says: "We charge a handling fee of £42 plus shipping per computer to recover our costs"	May 22 15:11
schestowitz	Re: http://www.computeraid.org/costings.htm "So, on the day, the average worker would refurbish 5 to 10 PCs (yes), so that's £204 worth of computers at £10 a time for the worker. It's not as if this money is going on the workers. Most of it is going on the salaries of the 22 staff members, who never put in an appearance in the workshop."	May 22 15:12
schestowitz	"Computer Aid International is, however, a Microsoft Authorised Refurbisher, which allows us to install a Microsoft Windows 2000 or XP licensed operating system only at a cost of £10.00 per machine"	May 22 15:12
schestowitz	Hehe. "Microsoft Authorised Refurbisher"	May 22 15:12
schestowitz	Dumpers	May 22 15:12
DaemonFC	schestowitz: Microsoft was partially fundingthose "Free PC with internet contract" deals at Best Buy back about 10 years ago	May 22 15:12
schestowitz	Get a load of this, they charge £10 a time for installing Ubuntu Linux: "We can also provide Ubuntu Linux and Open Office open source software (operating system and applications). If supplied on CD-ROM this is free. To pre-install on hard drives we charge £10.00 per PC. Please ask if you require this service" http://www.computeraid.org/TechnicalSpecs.htm	May 22 15:12
DaemonFC	I signed up for one and formatted the disk :P	May 22 15:12
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schestowitz	Haha	May 22 15:12
DaemonFC	they shipped with all kinds of advertisements and whorebars :P	May 22 15:12
schestowitz	They offer welfare	May 22 15:12
schestowitz	Vista for $5 to ebay	May 22 15:13
schestowitz	More 'free' computers for Africa	May 22 15:13
schestowitz	There's a real issue hre	May 22 15:13
schestowitz	The society is centred on wrong costs	May 22 15:13
schestowitz	Like polluiton	May 22 15:13
schestowitz	It it's expensive to cut down pollution, it won't happen	May 22 15:13
schestowitz	Because the formulation of success accounts NEVER for factors other than raw profit	May 22 15:14
schestowitz	So currency can be changed	May 22 15:14
DaemonFC	I dunno, on one hand they standardized the industry on the PC which arguably brought costs for the hardware down, but now they've filled in the savings and then some by how much they charge for Windows	May 22 15:14
schestowitz	To something that accounts for other things too. This way, with different goals, means to an end vary too	May 22 15:14
DaemonFC	plus who knows what would have emerged from the 10 incompatible computer systems in the 80's	May 22 15:14
DaemonFC	without them :P	May 22 15:14
DaemonFC	possibly Mac, possibly Commodore	May 22 15:14
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*DaemonFC really really liked Commodore		May 22 15:15
DaemonFC	I had a Commodore 64, 128, and an Amiga	May 22 15:15
DaemonFC	then I wound up with a PC running DOS/Win 3.1 and was like "WTF do you do with it?"	May 22 15:15
*trmanco says: open a bunch of useless windows		May 22 15:16
trmanco	and play the never ending free ski	May 22 15:16
MinceR	set wallpaper and colors ;)	May 22 15:16
DaemonFC	heh, everyone at that point had a DOS, I ended up with DR-DOS	May 22 15:16
MinceR	find a replacement to Program Manager that isn't a total pain to use; then wonder why printing has broken	May 22 15:17
trmanco	heh	May 22 15:17
DaemonFC	Central Point Desktop	May 22 15:17
trmanco	CPD	May 22 15:17
DaemonFC	it helped, but it was still Windows 3.1 :P	May 22 15:17
MinceR	i used Wayfarer and Plug-In for Windows	May 22 15:18
DaemonFC	you still had to drop to DOS to do anything useful	May 22 15:18
MinceR	then i dropped Wayfarer when i realized it broke printing	May 22 15:18
DaemonFC	lots of people just deleted Windows	May 22 15:19
DaemonFC	because it was taking hard disk space	May 22 15:19
schestowitz	Heh. "With all the sillyness that goes on in the corridors of power in the EU (software patents, document format wars, 'net neutrality', antitrust wrangling from MS and Intel, etc.) this is a really live issue and it would be great to reach as many people as we can."	May 22 15:19
DaemonFC	they like to call 3.1 a runaway hit with record sales cause they forced it on you	May 22 15:20
DaemonFC	whether you had a use for it or not	May 22 15:20
MinceR	and history repeated itself	May 22 15:20
DaemonFC	well, what happened was that Win 3.1 was so primitive and useless, everyone just kept making stuff for DOS	May 22 15:21
DaemonFC	MS tried to solve that with things like Win32's and WinG (precursor to DirectX), but nothing worked	May 22 15:21
DaemonFC	the first notable game for Windows was The Lion King and WinG was incompatible with a lot of video adapters, so they game would simply crash	May 22 15:22
Omar871	Ughh!! Although I love Firefox so much, but when it crashes... it makes me wanna snap my laptop into to pieces! ><	May 22 15:23
Omar871	two*	May 22 15:23
DaemonFC	Firefox heats up the laptop	May 22 15:23
DaemonFC	makes the fan run continuously	May 22 15:23
Omar871	DaemonFC: Yeah, I agree!	May 22 15:23
Omar871	DaemonFC: But I guess, what really makes so heavy are add-ons.	May 22 15:24
Omar871	makes it	May 22 15:24
DaemonFC	only thing I had was Adblock Plus	May 22 15:24
DaemonFC	believe me, I'm not trying to overload the poor thing	May 22 15:24
DaemonFC	I eventually tried that PC-BSD which runs fairly well, even with KDE, which is nothing short of amazing	May 22 15:25
DaemonFC	but it takes a little work to make it Linux-compatible	May 22 15:25
DaemonFC	you're stuck at Flash 7 unless you use the Linuxulator with a Linux web browser and Linux Flash	May 22 15:26
DaemonFC	they base their Linux simulation on RHEL, FreeBSD 7 is THEL 4 compatible, version 8 will be RHEL 5 compatible	May 22 15:28
DaemonFC	*RHEL	May 22 15:28
schestowitz	UK move to FOSS today: "I've been asked to help with a campaign to ask MEP candidates to support Free and Open Source Software in the rapidly approaching European elections. I've agreed to be a spokesperson for the UK..."	May 22 15:28
schestowitz	tacone: post coming	May 22 15:28
DaemonFC	schestowitz: Weren't people there getting pissed at the government for using Windows Media formats or something?	May 22 15:29
tacone	sigh, my last post was not only cloned, but that copypaste went on linuxtoday	May 22 15:29
tacone	i'm wondering if i should start to put some policy in place.	May 22 15:29
DaemonFC	people will rip you off	May 22 15:29
DaemonFC	you can still demand that they take it down	May 22 15:30
DaemonFC	but I usually won't	May 22 15:30
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DaemonFC	heh, "XP Antivirus malware has changed names to MS Antivirus" to confuse more people into running it	May 22 15:40
DaemonFC	Google is still advertising it as usual	May 22 15:40
DaemonFC	http://blogs.pcmag.com/securitywatch/2008/08/ms_antivirus_2008_morphed_from_xp_antivirus_2008.php	May 22 15:40
DaemonFC	just another reason to not trust adwords	May 22 15:40
MinceR	or google	May 22 15:40
*mib_wb17sg is now known as Ap0g33		May 22 15:41
DaemonFC	good point	May 22 15:41
DaemonFC	I've got Seamonkey locked down enough that the great majority of attacks simply won't work	May 22 15:42
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DaemonFC	most of them try to install themselves through advertisements and nearly all of them need scripting or Flash or JAVA enabled	May 22 15:43
DaemonFC	according to leaked data from the malicious "XP Antivirus"'s "affiliate program", their most successful affiliate made over $158,000 a week	May 22 15:45
DaemonFC	to push infestations onto Windows users	May 22 15:45
DaemonFC	so you can only imagine what the criminals behind the operation are taking in	May 22 15:46
DaemonFC	it's probably based in Russia or something	May 22 15:46
DaemonFC	somewhere where the authorities will never shut them down	May 22 15:46
schestowitz	2 Months and No Disclosure from the European Parliament < http://boycottnovell.com/2009/05/22/european-parliament-disclosure/ >	May 22 15:48
DaemonFC	hmm, it looks like the people behind it are Americans paying people in Ukraine and Belize	May 22 15:48
DaemonFC	to actually run the operation for them	May 22 15:48
schestowitz	DaemonFC: yes, Windows media there	May 22 15:49
DaemonFC	yeah, the anti-spyware laws tend to be effective at punishing Americans that do this stuff	May 22 15:50
DaemonFC	which is why they're paying frontmen in other countries	May 22 15:51
DaemonFC	and it goes right on	May 22 15:51
DaemonFC	I've been asking our state senator from this district to introduce anti-apyware legislation	May 22 15:52
DaemonFC	but so far no good :P	May 22 15:52
DaemonFC	as part of my last job I routinely found spyware on customers computers, I got tired of trying to get rid of it all and just started re-imaging the drives	May 22 15:54
DaemonFC	trying to get rid of it all can take hours and you can never be sure you got all of it	May 22 15:54
schestowitz	SA 'wants to export ubuntu' < http://www.news24.com/News24/South_Africa/Politics/0,,2-7-12_2519991,00.html >. Not the OS	May 22 15:54
DaemonFC	once any of it gets in and sets up shop, game over, you lose	May 22 15:55
DaemonFC	which is why I'll never know why anyone wants to have thousands of systems that are all vulnerable :P	May 22 15:55
DaemonFC	schestowitz: I was making more money cleaning up spyware off corporate networks than the people that put it there :)	May 22 15:56
DaemonFC	How's that for obscene?	May 22 15:56
schestowitz	Charlies combined two of his passions :-) http://www.theinquirer.net/inquirer/news/1137436/everclear-liquid-nitrogen-phenoms-party	May 22 15:57
DaemonFC	if they ever stopped Windows or the spyware from attacking Windows, I know for sure that tens of thousands of people that make their whole living cleaning it off would be out of a job	May 22 15:57
DaemonFC	Who the hell drinks Everclear?	May 22 15:58
DaemonFC	Who the hell would be alert enough after a few shots of it to work on anything?	May 22 15:59
DaemonFC	I call BS	May 22 15:59
DaemonFC	oh wait	May 22 16:00
DaemonFC	hmmm	May 22 16:00
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DaemonFC	I bumped up my 1.86 Ghz Core 2 Duo to 2.33 Ghz	May 22 16:01
DaemonFC	that count?	May 22 16:01
DaemonFC	heh	May 22 16:01
schestowitz	To tell w/ Lenovo: Lenovo's sales, profit fell in Q1 < http://www.theinquirer.net/inquirer/news/1137444/lenovo-sales-profit-fell-q1 >	May 22 16:01
schestowitz	Those who suck don't survive	May 22 16:01
DaemonFC	I probably could have gotten more	May 22 16:01
DaemonFC	decided not to	May 22 16:01
schestowitz	Under moderate doses binging won't hurt modding	May 22 16:02
schestowitz	Europe: as de Raadt put it (re: Intel), "open... for BUSINESS"	May 22 16:03
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DaemonFC	schestowitz: http://answers.yahoo.com/question/index?qid=20081130123314AAe3klv	May 22 16:04
DaemonFC	lmao	May 22 16:04
DaemonFC	"Can I install this virus on Vista? I already paid $50 for it and would haqte to waste my money!"	May 22 16:05
DaemonFC	What is wrong with people?	May 22 16:05
DaemonFC	*hate	May 22 16:05
DaemonFC	these people make me scared	May 22 16:08
schestowitz	Obama is open... to scrutiny; he would be better off close... to public needs.	May 22 16:12
Grommet	that is scary, where do they get vista for $50	May 22 16:12
DaemonFC	no, the rogue antivirus program	May 22 16:12
DaemonFC	she paid $50 for it	May 22 16:12
schestowitz	That's extortionate	May 22 16:12
DaemonFC	:P	May 22 16:13
schestowitz	CDs don't cost $50	May 22 16:13
schestowitz	Not even DVDs	May 22 16:13
schestowitz	That's a helluva lot of money for wallpapers	May 22 16:13
Grommet	lol	May 22 16:13
schestowitz	And some junk binaries that act as malware magnets if run	May 22 16:13
schestowitz	This again: Yahoo to buy into social media? < http://www.itwire.com/content/view/25169/1054/ > Is Yahoo not dead yet? ;-)	May 22 16:14
DaemonFC	well, these things mainly ask the user if they can install	May 22 16:14
DaemonFC	that's what makes them so funny	May 22 16:14
schestowitz	Peace = terrorism http://www.theregister.co.uk/2009/05/22/police_photos_restricted/ (Police wrong to spy on peace campaigner) "war is peace..."	May 22 16:26
schestowitz	http://www.theregister.co.uk/2009/05/22/youtube_smut_flood/ "The video site has a zero-tolerance to nudity on the site - footage of doctors demonstrating breast examinations have famously been removed in the past, while footage of Saddam Hussein's death by hanging is still available. "	May 22 16:28
schestowitz	Microsoft bails out of European competition hearing < http://www.theregister.co.uk/2009/05/22/microsoft_pulls_out_of_ec_competition_hearing/ >	May 22 16:28
DaemonFC	stalling?	May 22 16:32
schestowitz	Globe’s Oldest Blogger Dies At 97 < http://www.webpronews.com/topnews/2009/05/22/globe’s-oldest-blogger-dies-at-97 >	May 22 16:35
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schestowitz	DaemonFC: stalling in what sense?	May 22 16:44
schestowitz	Sorry, been on the phone for hours	May 22 16:44
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schestowitz	"Looks like netbooks are going to accomplish CPU diversity at last. Since Linux supports pretty much any available processor, it looks really good." http://www.linuxtoday.com/news_story.php3?ltsn=2009-05-21-027-35-OS-HW-OO-0002	May 22 16:55
Grommet	ppl are still buying netbooks?	May 22 16:56
schestowitz	Some might	May 22 16:57
DaemonFC	stalling as in hoping if they don't cooperate then it will slow the EU down long enough for them to get Windows 7 out as is	May 22 16:57
schestowitz	Yes, that's what I reckon	May 22 17:02
schestowitz	Quit X! screen-vs is more fun! < http://kmandla.wordpress.com/2009/05/21/quit-x-screen-vs-is-more-fun/ >	May 22 17:03
*liberfiasco is now known as libervisco		May 22 17:03
schestowitz	Are are people fighting for affinity from well-dressed shills for hire? (Forrester) http://news.cnet.com/8301-13505_3-10246722-16.html	May 22 17:09
schestowitz	http://seattletimes.nwsource.com/html/politics/2009247709_apusfedscomputervirus.html Does that affect computers or just those running the malware called Microsoft Windows?	May 22 17:12
DaemonFC	if they start putting Linux on everything by default, it doesn't change the fact that users are still easy to deceive	May 22 17:18
DaemonFC	you'd still have the lady that was unaware she spent $50 on a computer virus	May 22 17:18
Grommet	yeah	May 22 17:19
DaemonFC	only she'd be on Linux and running the same kind of stuff	May 22 17:19
Grommet	and windows is used to being the target	May 22 17:19
DaemonFC	well, all kinds of users end up with Windows	May 22 17:19
DaemonFC	only a few choose Linux	May 22 17:20
DaemonFC	so you don't really have a representative sample of the market on Linux	May 22 17:20
DaemonFC	my point is that if you did, then there's nothing stopping a user from voluntarily running deceptive software	May 22 17:20
DaemonFC	and security holes affecting Linux get patched in things like Firefox too	May 22 17:20
DaemonFC	so I'm sure that while harder to simply break in, there would be more than a few users that let it in	May 22 17:21
DaemonFC	and there are a lot of really clever people that write computer viruses, I'm certain they'd think of something	May 22 17:21
schestowitz	Replicating viruses?	May 22 17:22
schestowitz	How?	May 22 17:22
schestowitz	E-mail attachment?	May 22 17:23
DaemonFC	ever since Yahoo opened that Yahoo Answers thing, you see all the dumbest people asking questions there	May 22 17:23
schestowitz	It's not click to run	May 22 17:23
schestowitz	Haha. "@schestowitz: Obama is a very illusive president. At least with the Bush administration it was more clearer what their objectives were."	May 22 17:23
DaemonFC	you could hide malicious actions as part of a standard RPM/DEB file	May 22 17:23
DaemonFC	and once it's running elevated, there you go	May 22 17:24
schestowitz	Lobby for no-bulls* Obama. Have him say the truth	May 22 17:24
schestowitz	"Wanted dead and alive... bribe it on.... nukeelar missiles..."	May 22 17:24
DaemonFC	uhhhm	May 22 17:24
DaemonFC	elusive	May 22 17:24
DaemonFC	more clear	May 22 17:24
DaemonFC	or clearer	May 22 17:24
DaemonFC	:)	May 22 17:24
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DaemonFC	utorrent's website is down	May 22 17:25
DaemonFC	"It's not just you! http://utorrent.com looks down from here."	May 22 17:26
DaemonFC	:P	May 22 17:26
DaemonFC	http://downforeveryoneorjustme.com/	May 22 17:26
DaemonFC	hehehe	May 22 17:26
schestowitz	Reason?	May 22 17:27
schestowitz	We had a DDoS on us a short while ago. I scared it away with tessier's cript	May 22 17:27
DaemonFC	who knows	May 22 17:28
Omar871	Guys where in FSDaily do you think I should publish this post: http://www.networkworld.com/news/2009/052109-ex-microsoftie-free-software-will-kill.html ?	May 22 17:28
schestowitz	Omar871: it's from Microsoft Shill Oneal	May 22 17:29
schestowitz	Niel	May 22 17:29
Omar871	schestowitz: Regardless, it's a good post.	May 22 17:30
schestowitz	When two MSFTers say Microsoft is doomed I look suspiciously and cautiously.	May 22 17:30
Omar871	schestowitz: Screw "Shill" O'Neill, Keith Curtis ROCKS!!	May 22 17:30
schestowitz	Omar871: go ahead	May 22 17:30
Omar871	schestowitz: Not when one of them emphasizes that he's a Linux guru.	May 22 17:31
Omar871	schestowitz: No, I meant in which section? Business or Community?	May 22 17:31
schestowitz	Guru?	May 22 17:31
schestowitz	None of them is	May 22 17:32
Omar871	schestowitz: Yup	May 22 17:32
schestowitz	The Shill (ONiel) never even tried the thing AFAIK	May 22 17:32
Omar871	schestowitz: Keith Curtis is.	May 22 17:32
schestowitz	Omar871: doesn't matter which section. Put the URL here, though. I'd support it	May 22 17:32
schestowitz	Omar871: he's new to it	May 22 17:32
Omar871	From the post---> "Oh yeah, Curtis is not afraid to speak his mind as a Linux guru, either. "	May 22 17:33
Omar871	schestowitz: Article posted. :)	May 22 17:34
Omar871	In the Business section.	May 22 17:34
DaemonFC	A known trojan exploiting a vulnerability involving Apple Remote Desktop started to be distributed via LimeWire in mid 2008. It affects users of Mac OS X Tiger and Leopard.[7]	May 22 17:35
DaemonFC	lmao	May 22 17:35
Omar871	lol	May 22 17:35
Omar871	DaemonFC: Amazing.	May 22 17:36
schestowitz	Omar871: just because of Softie said it about another doesn't mean guruism	May 22 17:37
schestowitz	Maybe I'm wrong, but I digress. He's still quite new to it.	May 22 17:37
schestowitz	Here's is the "paranoid side" of one's mind:	May 22 17:37
schestowitz	Microsoft loves sending out self-appointed FOSS 'gurus'	May 22 17:38
schestowitz	People like Ramji, who are from proprietary sw companies	May 22 17:38
schestowitz	They don't even know SIMPLE things like how the GPL work	May 22 17:38
schestowitz	*works	May 22 17:38
Omar871	schestowitz: Regardless, I still believe that his presence as an Ex-Microsoftie in the FOSS world can be a great asset to us.	May 22 17:38
schestowitz	They just infiltrate the community and can do all sorts of damage	May 22 17:39
schestowitz	Like that Levy guy and his Black Duck Software BS	May 22 17:39
schestowitz	Proprietary sw leeching off FOSS and off Palamida	May 22 17:39
schestowitz	Then bring in Microsoft to FOSS	May 22 17:39
schestowitz	Omar871: we shall live and see.	May 22 17:39
schestowitz	He has friends at Microsoft	May 22 17:39
schestowitz	Former colleagues	May 22 17:39
Omar871	schestowitz: Yup	May 22 17:39
schestowitz	He's loyal to them too	May 22 17:39
tessier	schestowitz: How's the new machine doing?	May 22 17:40
tessier	A short DOS eh?	May 22 17:40
Omar871	schestowitz: This doesn't really matter, does it?	May 22 17:40
tessier	The firewall rules are in place so hopefully it passed quickly.	May 22 17:40
Omar871	schestowitz: Plus, and this is really important, paranoia will never get us anywhere.	May 22 17:40
schestowitz	Palin Email Hacker Says Emails Were Public Record... So No Crime? < http://techdirt.com/articles/20090521/1806144966.shtml >	May 22 17:42
schestowitz	tessier: aye	May 22 17:42
schestowitz	Short one	May 22 17:42
schestowitz	I ran the firewal.sh	May 22 17:42
schestowitz	I ran the firewall.sh script	May 22 17:42
schestowitz	Then id died out	May 22 17:42
tessier	In fact it probably would have been a much longer script had it not been for the firewall stuff	May 22 17:42
schestowitz	Maybe not related to it	May 22 17:42
tessier	Actually I ran that script last night. No need to run it again.	May 22 17:42
schestowitz	I thought so	May 22 17:42
tessier	That script puts firewall rules in place which filter the attack automatically	May 22 17:42
tessier	I do need to put the script in the init scripts so it happens automatically though...	May 22 17:43
schestowitz	tessier: the new machine is great	May 22 17:43
tessier	Right now I would have to run it manually after a reboot.	May 22 17:43
schestowitz	I checked files one by one (sort of) to see if the old server (before DDOS) is identical.	May 22 17:43
tessier	Cool. Don't forget you have root via sudo now so you can look at the logs or whatever.	May 22 17:43
schestowitz	I found the logs	May 22 17:43
schestowitz	I parse them locally	May 22 17:43
schestowitz	We lost some traffic due to downtimes (Google and all), but can regain it	May 22 17:44
schestowitz	tessier: ever used Urchin? It's HUGE	May 22 17:44
schestowitz	I took the old logs off the account (March-May) to compact the home dir.	May 22 17:45
schestowitz	May 1-14 was 50 MB compressed	May 22 17:45
tessier	I know one of the guys who wrote urchin originally.	May 22 17:45
schestowitz	tessier: made money from Google takeover, eh?	May 22 17:46
tessier	Not sure.	May 22 17:46
tessier	Probably	May 22 17:46
schestowitz	I don't think they disclosed amount	May 22 17:46
schestowitz	Let me check	May 22 17:46
schestowitz	http://www.seroundtable.com/archives/001729.html	May 22 17:47
schestowitz	"Battellemedia heard the price on the purchase was in the ballpark of $30 million."	May 22 17:47
schestowitz	http://bermanexposed.org/facts	May 22 17:51
schestowitz	Different Berman in the news: http://techdirt.com/articles/20090520/0103474940.shtml (Howard Berman Looks To Send More Hated US IP Cops Around The Globe)	May 22 17:51
schestowitz	Student Who Witnessed Murder Trying To Use Journalism Shield Law < http://techdirt.com/articles/20090520/0219554944.shtml >	May 22 17:52
schestowitz	As the human species expands, little room is left to evolution's wonders http://www.theregister.co.uk/2009/05/22/tas_gets_really_helpful_help/	May 22 17:53
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schestowitz	This is funny. I call Forrester "shills for hire" in twitter and now they 'follow' me (just minutes later). "Forrester Research (forrester) is now following your updates on Twitter."	May 22 17:55
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schestowitz	tessier: let me know when you want some banner added for yourself	May 22 17:56
DaemonFC	schestowitz: THe Mormons are advertising on the Sci Fi Channel now	May 22 17:56
DaemonFC	:)	May 22 17:57
schestowitz	Matt Asay is a mormon	May 22 17:57
schestowitz	People associate it wrongly with polygamy	May 22 17:57
MinceR	s/rm/r/	May 22 17:57
MinceR	:>	May 22 17:57
DaemonFC	yeah, they're just bigots	May 22 17:57
schestowitz	MinceR: hehe	May 22 17:57
schestowitz	he won't understand sed	May 22 17:58
DaemonFC	http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Thing_(video_game)	May 22 17:58
schestowitz	A lot of Novell employees are Mormons too if that matters	May 22 17:58
DaemonFC	:)	May 22 17:58
DaemonFC	oh you're just saying that so I'll dislike them more	May 22 17:58
DaemonFC	:D	May 22 17:58
schestowitz	Oh, Asay too was a Novell employee	May 22 17:58
schestowitz	Lauren Hill: That Thing	May 22 17:59
DaemonFC	that game runs perfectly on Wine	May 22 17:59
DaemonFC	:)	May 22 17:59
mib_mqmao7	Hi Roy, this is chips, I did not see a way to add my name this time	May 22 18:00
MinceR	schestowitz: i don't expect him to, he's a crApple cultist :>	May 22 18:01
mib_mqmao7	Roy, was Goblin able to send you the information?	May 22 18:01
DaemonFC	meh, I collect operating systems	May 22 18:01
DaemonFC	good to know them I suppose	May 22 18:01
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DaemonFC	Novell actually has more C# in their OS than Windows Vista	May 22 18:02
DaemonFC	:P	May 22 18:02
DaemonFC	the interesting thing about C# is that there are ways to view the source easily, even if it hasn't been open sourced	May 22 18:03
DaemonFC	I would assume it would be easier to allege impropriety if you developed something similar	May 22 18:03
Omar871	http://www.fsdaily.com/Business/Ex_Microsoftie_Free_software_will_kill_Redmond-1	May 22 18:04
DaemonFC	I don't know about kill	May 22 18:04
DaemonFC	but it will make them much smaller	May 22 18:04
DaemonFC	maybe rethink their hostility	May 22 18:05
schestowitz	tessier: is an outgoing mail server possible to enable on the VM? WordPress sends out notifications by mail.	May 22 18:05
schestowitz	mib_lvp5dj: chips?	May 22 18:06
mib_lvp5dj	yes	May 22 18:06
schestowitz	Goblin wasn't here	May 22 18:06
schestowitz	Do you know who attacks the site?	May 22 18:06
mib_lvp5dj	i pm you a file on the ddos	May 22 18:06
mib_lvp5dj	its in there, I think so	May 22 18:06
DaemonFC	if they have that much bandwidth, it's probably someone controlling a bunch of botnet virus-infected PCs	May 22 18:07
mib_lvp5dj	I could be wrong, you decide	May 22 18:07
DaemonFC	Conficker is still gobbling up 50,000 PCs per day	May 22 18:08
schestowitz	mib_lvp5dj: thanks, saved	May 22 18:10
schestowitz	DaemonFC: says who?	May 22 18:10
schestowitz	Symantec?	May 22 18:10
DaemonFC	yeah	May 22 18:10
schestowitz	Maybe it's more	May 22 18:10
schestowitz	Maybe less	May 22 18:10
DaemonFC	that's still an arming figure	May 22 18:11
schestowitz	They are a business, not a convoy for answers	May 22 18:11
DaemonFC	with that many PCs it'll soon be the biggest botnet ever	May 22 18:11
schestowitz	DaemonFC: not really	May 22 18:11
schestowitz	99% of Windows (or 98%) is vulnerable	May 22 18:11
DaemonFC	there are multiple varients, if you know how they work you can protect against them	May 22 18:12
schestowitz	Secunia, 98.1% Of All Windows Users Unpatched < http://www.noeman.org/gsm/internet-computers/72276-secunia-98-1-all-windows-users-unpatched.html >	May 22 18:12
DaemonFC	one exploits the RPC server bug that was patched last month	May 22 18:12
DaemonFC	one exploits a bug from November	May 22 18:12
DaemonFC	one launches itself from USB keys using AutoRun	May 22 18:12
DaemonFC	mine is patched	May 22 18:13
DaemonFC	but yeah, a lot of people disable auto updates	May 22 18:13
tessier	schestowitz: Yes. I will configure an outgoing mail server...	May 22 18:13
DaemonFC	mostly because they're using pirate Windows and that's one way Microsoft can shut it down	May 22 18:13
tessier	DaemonFC: Auto-updates are funny and dangerous.	May 22 18:13
DaemonFC	and that post is from September	May 22 18:13
mib_lvp5dj	actually the conflicker that infects from usb, does not even need autorun, it will still infected, even patched when u open that infected flash drive. Unless and antivirus catches it	May 22 18:14
tessier	DaemonFC: A couple of months ago one of my colleagues burned a Linux distro on his Windows machine and left it in the CD ROM drive.	May 22 18:14
tessier	DaemonFC: He did that on a Monday. Then he went home.	May 22 18:14
tessier	DaemonFC: Guess what? The next day was Patch Tuesday.	May 22 18:14
tessier	His Windows box auto-updated, rebooted, CD ROM was set to boot first in the BIOS, and the CD ROM (which had a kickstart file on it, the install-CD for our appliance OS) installed itself over his Windows box.	May 22 18:15
DaemonFC	I don't load unscanned USB sticks anyway	May 22 18:15
DaemonFC	uhhhm	May 22 18:15
schestowitz	tessier: thanks!	May 22 18:15
DaemonFC	unattended installer?	May 22 18:15
schestowitz	It's like in a film	May 22 18:15
schestowitz	With brooms dancing all night	May 22 18:16
schestowitz	Secunia, 98.1% Of All Windows Users Unpatched < http://www.noeman.org/gsm/internet-computers/72276-secunia-98-1-all-windows-users-unpatched.html >	May 22 18:16
schestowitz	Oops.	May 22 18:16
schestowitz	disney fantasia The Sorcerer's Apprentice with Mickey < http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LD8HDta7Z_4 >	May 22 18:17
DaemonFC	there are no post-sp2 updates yet	May 22 18:17
DaemonFC	just Windows Defender signatures	May 22 18:18
DaemonFC	makes me wonder if I'm unpatched for anything yet :P	May 22 18:19
mib_lvp5dj	I have only one XP installation left on an old 16g drive. But do have several in Virtualbox that I use, those do not have all the sercurity features installed, as I only use one program with XP in a VM	May 22 18:19
mib_lvp5dj	It takes me a full day to setup xp with an intergrated slipstream cd	May 22 18:20
tessier	DaemonFC: Yes, unattended installer. That's the whole point of kickstart	May 22 18:21
DaemonFC	making an integrated XP disc is a pain in the ass	May 22 18:21
*schestowitz never installed a Windows later than Win98 (from QuickRestore CD)		May 22 18:21
mib_lvp5dj	to get the security into something halfway reasonable	May 22 18:21
DaemonFC	making an integrated Vista disc is not possible	May 22 18:21
schestowitz	tessier: there was a similar real story	May 22 18:21
schestowitz	A Mandriva guy	May 22 18:21
schestowitz	Let me search	May 22 18:22
schestowitz	Actually, I once tried installing Win2000 and it failed	May 22 18:22
mib_lvp5dj	DaemonFC, Vista will never touch my machines, i just not into pain	May 22 18:22
schestowitz	(Way back when it was new)	May 22 18:22
DaemonFC	Windows 2000 was pretty easy to install	May 22 18:22
schestowitz	(it lacked driver)	May 22 18:22
schestowitz	There was win98 on some laptop	May 22 18:23
schestowitz	From last decade	May 22 18:23
DaemonFC	yeah, you need to assemble a drivers disc	May 22 18:23
DaemonFC	burn them to a CD-R	May 22 18:23
DaemonFC	or put them on a USB key	May 22 18:23
mib_lvp5dj	some hardware would never get those drivers	May 22 18:23
DaemonFC	those restore discs usualyl have drivers for everything they shipped your system with	May 22 18:24
mib_lvp5dj	windows is famous to obsoleting hardware with new windows versions	May 22 18:24
DaemonFC	you can do the same thing with integration utilities	May 22 18:24
DaemonFC	Windows doesn't really	May 22 18:24
DaemonFC	if there's a driver it will work, the company that made the device makes the drivers	May 22 18:24
DaemonFC	(or doesn't)	May 22 18:24
mib_lvp5dj	if you had a machine that ran on 98, that does not mean there will be drivers for 2000 or xp	May 22 18:25
DaemonFC	right, cause Microsoft doesn't make the drivers	May 22 18:25
DaemonFC	and sometimes the earlier version's driver runs on the new version	May 22 18:25
DaemonFC	sometimes it doesn't	May 22 18:25
mib_lvp5dj	and niether will the manufacturers, always provide an updated driver	May 22 18:25
DaemonFC	that's what I mean	May 22 18:26
DaemonFC	cause they want to sell you more shit	May 22 18:26
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DaemonFC	best way to do it is not make a new driver	May 22 18:26
mib_lvp5dj	used to buy components out of a dollar junkbox at the computer stores for a long time, almost always they worked, but mostly they did not have the drivers	May 22 18:26
mib_lvp5dj	for 2000 and xp	May 22 18:27
mib_lvp5dj	DaemonFC, agreed	May 22 18:27
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DaemonFC	HP and Creative are the worst	May 22 18:28
DaemonFC	about that	May 22 18:28
mib_lvp5dj	still, its an expensive lession for the public when M$ changes its driver model so often with new windows releases	May 22 18:28
DaemonFC	but you also need proprietary drivers for Linux to use the Creative X-Fi	May 22 18:28
DaemonFC	and they're buggy as hell	May 22 18:28
DaemonFC	so the same thing can happen to Linux	May 22 18:29
DaemonFC	with devices "dropped" because of no drivers for the new kernel	May 22 18:29
schestowitz	I didn't know Kohei had a blog... http://kohei.us/2009/05/22/range-selection-and-cursor/	May 22 18:29
mib_lvp5dj	believe Creative X-fi had a major bug problem with it Vista drivers too when released	May 22 18:30
schestowitz	Yes	May 22 18:30
schestowitz	Some guy hacked on it	May 22 18:30
schestowitz	The hunted by Creative	May 22 18:30
mib_lvp5dj	yes, it was a scandel	May 22 18:30
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schestowitz	http://forums.creative.com/creativelabs/board/message?board.id=soundblaster&thread.id=116332&view=by_date_ascending&page=1	May 22 18:31
schestowitz	http://www.theregister.co.uk/2008/04/04/creative_restores_home_brew_vista_driver_links/	May 22 18:31
schestowitz	Why Vista sounds worse http://www.guardian.co.uk/technology/2008/jan/31/microsoft.technology	May 22 18:31
schestowitz	http://darkness.codefu.org/wordpress/2007/12/15/292	May 22 18:31
mib_lvp5dj	sounded like they wanted users to buy the next version of soundblaster	May 22 18:31
schestowitz	Users?	May 22 18:32
schestowitz	Or customers?	May 22 18:32
schestowitz	This is h/w	May 22 18:32
mib_lvp5dj	yes	May 22 18:32
schestowitz	Creative developer a bad name for itself	May 22 18:32
mib_lvp5dj	customers	May 22 18:32
mib_lvp5dj	last board I got was a soundblaster live	May 22 18:33
mib_lvp5dj	no more	May 22 18:33
mib_lvp5dj	just look at how Vista with its protected video pipeline bs, (drm) has obsoleted almost every TV card made	May 22 18:34
DaemonFC	it's not really Vista's fault on that account	May 22 18:35
DaemonFC	Creative makes shit drivers	May 22 18:36
DaemonFC	and drops them every chance they get to sell you identical hardware	May 22 18:36
mib_lvp5dj	not that digital tv in some way was not going to do anyway, but still you could use a digital converter box with those old tv cards to extend them	May 22 18:36
DaemonFC	with new drivers	May 22 18:36
DaemonFC	fuck them	May 22 18:36
DaemonFC	they sold me their last device with that webcam	May 22 18:36
DaemonFC	they rolled out that webcam I bought right before Vista launched then never made a Vista driver, so I had to hack on the XP one	May 22 18:37
DaemonFC	at least Logitech says there will be a Windows 7 driver	May 22 18:37
DaemonFC	I mean, Creative doesn't even stand behind products that are only a year old	May 22 18:37
DaemonFC	that doesn't say much about them	May 22 18:37
mib_lvp5dj	I will never buy from creative again, its not really the same company anymore	May 22 18:38
mib_lvp5dj	Roy made a good point about no windows 2000 driver for his 98 laptop. It about all the hardware that M$ leaves as orphans, with no drivers. They did it in a major way with printers in Vista	May 22 18:39
DaemonFC	they don't orphan anything	May 22 18:40
DaemonFC	the company that makes the drivers does	May 22 18:40
mib_lvp5dj	no they just moved on	May 22 18:40
DaemonFC	if there were WDM drivers for 98	May 22 18:40
DaemonFC	they will work with Windows 2000	May 22 18:40
mib_lvp5dj	not all	May 22 18:41
schestowitz	Companies sometimes supply the driver to the platform	May 22 18:41
schestowitz	Works well for Lnux	May 22 18:41
schestowitz	*Linux	May 22 18:41
DaemonFC	the driver model changes sometimes, but the companies that want to sell you new hardware never make a new driver	May 22 18:41
schestowitz	So Microsoft's excuses are few	May 22 18:41
*schestowitz taking off, back in 2 hours		May 22 18:41
DaemonFC	no, HP only open sources their printer drivers for Linux	May 22 18:41
DaemonFC	their Windows ones are proprietary	May 22 18:42
DaemonFC	all MS is licensed to do is redistribute	May 22 18:42
DaemonFC	they want their printers to be more popular, that's why they release Linux drivers	May 22 18:42
mib_lvp5dj	MS does make some drivers, or uses the companies drivers on their install disk	May 22 18:42
DaemonFC	and the printers themselves are rigged anyway	May 22 18:42
DaemonFC	the printers have a limit set to how many pages they can print	May 22 18:43
tessier	Judge Reviewing Pirate Bay Trial Bias Is Removed	May 22 18:43
tessier	Woohoo!	May 22 18:43
mib_lvp5dj	Companies themselves may go out of business between windows releases, so once the drivers change, if you cannot use the old windows driver, you may be out of luck	May 22 18:43
DaemonFC	the one that convicted them was removed?	May 22 18:43
DaemonFC	yeah, but that's not Microsoft's fault	May 22 18:43
mib_lvp5dj	its M$ fault for changing the driver model so often	May 22 18:44
DaemonFC	what are they supposed to do? Never improve the driver model so that 15 year old hardware from Windows 95 all works?	May 22 18:44
tessier	No, not the one that convicted him.	May 22 18:44
tessier	The one reviewing the one...it's weird.	May 22 18:44
mib_lvp5dj	M$ changes the driver model every other release	May 22 18:44
DaemonFC	Microsoft hadn't changed the driver model from Windows 98 to XP	May 22 18:44
DaemonFC	98/Me/2000/XP can all use the same drivers	May 22 18:45
DaemonFC	because they all use WDM	May 22 18:45
DaemonFC	Vista can use WDM drivers except in cases of sound and video devices	May 22 18:45
mib_lvp5dj	usually you can get most of them to work, that I would agree, but not all	May 22 18:45
DaemonFC	because they reworked the god awful sound system of XP's	May 22 18:45
mib_lvp5dj	but its beyond that of what the average user knows how to do, DaemonFC	May 22 18:46
DaemonFC	the display drivers now use WDDM which allows for some neat new stuff	May 22 18:46
DaemonFC	like for example, if the display driver crashes, the computer doesn't go down	May 22 18:46
DaemonFC	I'd call 8 years of the same driver model pretty generous	May 22 18:47
mib_lvp5dj	and chopped up a mp3 that played well on an old 486, when vista first came out	May 22 18:47
DaemonFC	you don't even get that with Linux sometimes and never with the Mac	May 22 18:47
mib_lvp5dj	disagree that its 8 years of the same driver model	May 22 18:48
mib_lvp5dj	no way	May 22 18:48
DaemonFC	Vista has been a mixed bag wrt to drivers.	May 22 18:48
DaemonFC	ever heard "To make an omelet you have to break some eggs"?	May 22 18:48
mib_lvp5dj	scambled	May 22 18:48
DaemonFC	they can't support Windows 98 drivers forever	May 22 18:48
DaemonFC	most, but not all of them, died with XP	May 22 18:48
mib_lvp5dj	or nt4, or 2000, or xp, or 2003	May 22 18:49
DaemonFC	I've ran Windows XP drivers on Windows 98	May 22 18:49
DaemonFC	and Windows 98 drivers on Windows 2000	May 22 18:49
DaemonFC	they're pretty much interchangeable	May 22 18:49
mib_lvp5dj	yes, but you DaemonFC, are far beyond what the normal windows user can do	May 22 18:49
DaemonFC	Vista can also use XP network drivers in a pinch	May 22 18:49
DaemonFC	they won't work worse than they did on XP	May 22 18:49
DaemonFC	but you won't get NDIS 6	May 22 18:50
DaemonFC	it can also use XP video drivers, but then you only get DirectX 9 support	May 22 18:50
mib_lvp5dj	yes, I have installed drivers in xp that worked in even 98, maybe half of them might work in some sort of crippled way	May 22 18:51
DaemonFC	I've gotten Vista to work with twin 3dfx Voodoo 2 5500's	May 22 18:51
DaemonFC	that I bought in 2001	May 22 18:51
DaemonFC	using Windows 2000 drivers	May 22 18:51
DaemonFC	errr	May 22 18:51
DaemonFC	Voodoo 5 5500 that is	May 22 18:51
mib_lvp5dj	no hdmi on those 3dfx voodoo?	May 22 18:52
DaemonFC	they still work but you can't use AERO obviously and they only go as far as DirectX 8	May 22 18:52
DaemonFC	no, jsut VGA	May 22 18:52
mib_lvp5dj	ah	May 22 18:52
mib_lvp5dj	so blueray movies are out	May 22 18:52
DaemonFC	lmao	May 22 18:52
DaemonFC	a lot of people were jsut getting DVD's when these were new	May 22 18:53
mib_lvp5dj	I stand by my statement, that the driver model in windows, is causing a lot of hardware orphans, and a lot of pain for some users of old hardware	May 22 18:54
mib_lvp5dj	also, windows 8 (not 7) will be another driver breaking release	May 22 18:54
mib_lvp5dj	8 will be a major release as opposed to Seven which is the minor	May 22 18:55
DaemonFC	possibly	May 22 18:55
mib_lvp5dj	8 will still be based on NT, according to Mary Jo Folley	May 22 18:55
DaemonFC	but you're looking probably 2013-2014?	May 22 18:56
DaemonFC	if it doesn't get delayed?	May 22 18:56
mib_lvp5dj	2011	May 22 18:56
DaemonFC	I doubt it	May 22 18:56
mib_lvp5dj	unless the EU delays it	May 22 18:56
mib_lvp5dj	every 2 to 3 years	May 22 18:56
mib_lvp5dj	planned, refer to S. Ballmers statement	May 22 18:57
mib_lvp5dj	how else can they squeeze more out of the sick cow	May 22 18:57
MinceR	new skin	May 22 18:57
MinceR	some people fall for it every time	May 22 18:58
mib_lvp5dj	yes	May 22 18:58
Balrog_	mib_lvp5dj: that's the reason for the driver model	May 22 18:59
Balrog_	to break 'old' hardware	May 22 18:59
DaemonFC	no	May 22 18:59
DaemonFC	it happens faster with Linux	May 22 19:00
DaemonFC	just try to use a decent sound card or TV tuner	May 22 19:00
mib_lvp5dj	Balrog, I remember M$ bragging to the OEM's that Vista would cause a surge in hardware sales.	May 22 19:00
DaemonFC	I'm betting Aver will give up soon	May 22 19:00
DaemonFC	if they haven't already	May 22 19:01
DaemonFC	that driver hasn't been maintained since a year ago	May 22 19:01
mib_lvp5dj	OEM's that are in trouble now, that are hitching to Seven, may not last the recession	May 22 19:01
DaemonFC	jerry rigging hardware	May 22 19:01
DaemonFC	no driver at all	May 22 19:01
DaemonFC	or buy a new device in 5 years	May 22 19:01
trmanco	http://www.winehq.org/announce/1.1.22	May 22 19:01
DaemonFC	:)	May 22 19:01
mib_lvp5dj	the linux driver model, is far better than windows.	May 22 19:03
DaemonFC	it's not guaranteed	May 22 19:03
DaemonFC	even 3 months from now they break stuff	May 22 19:03
mib_lvp5dj	but at first, driver support in linux was a big problem	May 22 19:03
DaemonFC	that's why nobody wants to support drivers for it	May 22 19:03
mib_lvp5dj	I would say the biggest problem right now, is dropping support for older hardware in linux	May 22 19:03
DaemonFC	I have plenty of stuff that doesn't work in Linux	May 22 19:04
DaemonFC	from game controllers to my TV tuner	May 22 19:04
mib_lvp5dj	in the kernel, you have to go back in some distro's and compile it yourself	May 22 19:04
mib_lvp5dj	tv cards and scanners are still weak, but older tv cards are better supported in linux than Vista	May 22 19:05
DaemonFC	http://4.bp.blogspot.com/_Nisa5MFVK14/SKx9-u-zBUI/AAAAAAAAAWo/qJziBmbbJkc/s400/Linux+-+Demotivational+poster.jpg	May 22 19:06
DaemonFC	:)	May 22 19:06
DaemonFC	http://rubenerd.com/uploads/graphic.debian.openssh.2.png	May 22 19:08
mib_lvp5dj	Roy, did you have a chance to read the PM yet?	May 22 19:09
mib_lvp5dj	just wondering if you found the information interesting	May 22 19:14
MinceR	DaemonFC: welcome to the third millennium!	May 22 19:18
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Balrog_	schestowitz and MinceR: looks like Palm isn't doing too well to promote the pre : <http://hardware.slashdot.org/article.pl?sid=09/05/22/1621243&art_pos=1>	May 22 19:25
Balrog_	"Palm Kills Community Before It Begins"	May 22 19:25
Balrog_	compare that to the iphone dev lists, that were around since the jailbreak days and are still around ... sometimes talking about iphone OS 3.0 even	May 22 19:25
DaemonFC	I got a Zune for $20 on ebay	May 22 19:30
DaemonFC	people can't get rid of these things	May 22 19:30
DaemonFC	:P	May 22 19:30
trmanco	lol	May 22 19:30
DaemonFC	it plays MP3 right? That's all I wanted	May 22 19:31
trmanco	testing hotmail's pop3 service	May 22 19:31
trmanco	it's slow	May 22 19:31
DaemonFC	and it only lets you log in every 15 minutes	May 22 19:31
DaemonFC	and they use non standard ports	May 22 19:31
DaemonFC	and you have to use TLS	May 22 19:31
DaemonFC	:)	May 22 19:31
trmanco	yeah	May 22 19:32
trmanco	don't know about the ports	May 22 19:32
trmanco	evolution works with out any mention of them	May 22 19:32
trmanco	TLS, never knew what's the difference between ssl	May 22 19:32
trmanco	I hate pop though	May 22 19:33
trmanco	IMAP is great	May 22 19:33
DaemonFC	well, my dad is getting laid off from Caterpillar	May 22 19:34
DaemonFC	it seems like every place he finds work, it lasts a few years and they go under	May 22 19:34
DaemonFC	57 years old, he's got at least 8 years til he can retire	May 22 19:34
DaemonFC	and fucking Richard Stallman is saying shit about this	May 22 19:35
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DaemonFC	oh I'd like to meet that guy in person	May 22 19:35
DaemonFC	he wouldn't like it	May 22 19:35
mib_lvp5dj	but is RMS the cause of the layoff at catapuller?	May 22 19:36
trmanco	he has to have opinion about free software, not people loosing there jobs	May 22 19:36
DaemonFC	he's been urging a boycott	May 22 19:36
mib_lvp5dj	its the recession	May 22 19:36
DaemonFC	that guy is an irreverent asshole	May 22 19:36
mib_lvp5dj	sometimes its best not to get into the "politics"	May 22 19:37
DaemonFC	it's not politics	May 22 19:37
DaemonFC	that's my dad	May 22 19:37
DaemonFC	I'd like to meet this RMS asswipe	May 22 19:37
DaemonFC	and feed him his dick	May 22 19:37
DaemonFC	seriously	May 22 19:37
trmanco	yeah, but people get laid off because of politics	May 22 19:37
DaemonFC	the guy is a far left nutcase	May 22 19:38
DaemonFC	and a traitor	May 22 19:38
DaemonFC	and yeah, he is political	May 22 19:38
trmanco	traitor?	May 22 19:38
DaemonFC	yes, traitor	May 22 19:38
trmanco	by betraying the closed source model?	May 22 19:38
trmanco	:-p	May 22 19:39
DaemonFC	I mean like RMS should get with Jimmy Carter	May 22 19:39
DaemonFC	and find a way to smuggle weapons to the damned "Palestinians"	May 22 19:39
DaemonFC	so they can blow up civilians	May 22 19:39
DaemonFC	and hide behind children	May 22 19:39
DaemonFC	that's what RMS is really all about	May 22 19:39
DaemonFC	treason	May 22 19:39
DaemonFC	he's not only an arrogant ass, he is plain stupid	May 22 19:39
trmanco	heh, whatever...	May 22 19:40
trmanco	I don't agree with you on this... but hey, that's your opinion...	May 22 19:40
DaemonFC	he's one of these people that use their freedoms to blast the country and people that provide them	May 22 19:40
DaemonFC	he's useless	May 22 19:40
mib_lvp5dj	I do not know all of RMS opinions on politics, and really, I don't want to. But on freedom and software, I generally agree with RMS	May 22 19:41
DaemonFC	read his blog	May 22 19:41
DaemonFC	he's a bigot too	May 22 19:41
DaemonFC	he's wrong, he is so wrong that even if we were in a universe where he was right, he'd still be wrong	May 22 19:41
mib_lvp5dj	I can agree with you DaemonFC on a lot of things about windows, but one thing that puzzles me, is why? Why use it?	May 22 19:42
DaemonFC	meh, there's good reasons for using anything	May 22 19:43
DaemonFC	and bad things that can happen with anything	May 22 19:43
mib_lvp5dj	yes, I would agree, but I would like to here yours	May 22 19:43
mib_lvp5dj	and please don't tell me windows is more secure, I got that from Andre on MS Watch	May 22 19:44
DaemonFC	hardware devices that have no Linux drivers, games that Wine can't run, and wrestling around with compilers and packaging systems on Linux for hours, thinking I fixed something, and winding up breaking it because of something stupid and specific to one distro	May 22 19:44
DaemonFC	no, it's not more secure	May 22 19:44
mib_lvp5dj	thx's	May 22 19:44
DaemonFC	for example, if you compile and install your own kernel in Ubuntu without removing nvidia-common first	May 22 19:45
DaemonFC	it will never let you uninstall that kernel	May 22 19:45
DaemonFC	because it will break one of the uninstallation scripts	May 22 19:45
mib_lvp5dj	mostly winmodems, some printers, half of the scanners, half of the tv cards (xp is better supported in tv cards)	May 22 19:45
DaemonFC	you don't find out about this until you go to remove it though	May 22 19:45
DaemonFC	oddly enough when I was wrestling around with that Foxconn bios issue	May 22 19:46
mib_lvp5dj	because nvidia is a closed source driver	May 22 19:46
DaemonFC	I ran into an engineer of theirs	May 22 19:46
DaemonFC	who used to work at AverMedia	May 22 19:46
mib_lvp5dj	I use ATI	May 22 19:46
DaemonFC	he said that he wrote Linux drivers for some of their cards	May 22 19:46
DaemonFC	but there wasn't much money for them	May 22 19:46
DaemonFC	so they laid him off	May 22 19:46
DaemonFC	right before he was going to make a driver for my model	May 22 19:46
mib_lvp5dj	so which games do you play that cannot work on linux?	May 22 19:47
DaemonFC	so this card will never run on Linux	May 22 19:47
mib_lvp5dj	unless you write the driver	May 22 19:47
DaemonFC	uhhhm, I've got quite a few, a lot will run but performance is much lower than XP or Vista	May 22 19:47
DaemonFC	and some won't even install cause Wine can't cope with SecuROM	May 22 19:48
DaemonFC	Oblivion Game of the Year does that	May 22 19:48
mib_lvp5dj	me I only retrogame, so Linux is perfect	May 22 19:48
DaemonFC	so I could install it on Windows, apply a crack, and copy it over to Wine	May 22 19:48
DaemonFC	but :P	May 22 19:48
DaemonFC	that's a lot of data	May 22 19:48
mib_lvp5dj	how about xp in virtualbox, do you do that?	May 22 19:49
DaemonFC	yeah, Wine can handle some older copy protection	May 22 19:49
mib_lvp5dj	will any of those games work that way?	May 22 19:49
DaemonFC	at least enough to get things installed	May 22 19:49
DaemonFC	no	May 22 19:49
DaemonFC	Oblivion is pretty heavy	May 22 19:49
DaemonFC	however you run it, it'll have to be "native"	May 22 19:50
DaemonFC	or at least as much as possible	May 22 19:50
mib_lvp5dj	sure, CIV4 in wine was too heavy for my old hardware in wine, it did work, but too slow	May 22 19:50
DaemonFC	you run into some of these games that use EVERY DirectX feature there is	May 22 19:50
DaemonFC	and Wine just basically dies	May 22 19:50
mib_lvp5dj	but my hardware is still single core	May 22 19:50
DaemonFC	Wine has a pretty feature complete DirectX 9	May 22 19:51
DaemonFC	but performance can still be bad sometimes	May 22 19:51
mib_lvp5dj	DirectX is a multimedia extenstion, which Bill Gates at one point in his life said it was one of the ways he was going stop Linux with. I can never find that quote either anymore.	May 22 19:51
DaemonFC	DirectX is good and bad, good in that they add features faster than OpenGL these days, but bad in that I can't use it on my Mac or in BSD/Linux cause it's not open	May 22 19:52
DaemonFC	that's probably why Gates said that	May 22 19:53
DaemonFC	OpenGL consortium is descending into an incoherent bureaucracy these days	May 22 19:53
mib_lvp5dj	DirectX is bad because its closed source and patented	May 22 19:53
DaemonFC	that's what I said	May 22 19:53
MinceR	directx is also bad because m$ controls it fully	May 22 19:53
DaemonFC	and OpenGL is still bloated for games	May 22 19:53
MinceR	opengl isn't only for games	May 22 19:53
mib_lvp5dj	and used as a means to stop or slow down linux	May 22 19:54
DaemonFC	something like MiniGL or Glide was optimal	May 22 19:54
DaemonFC	vs. OpenGL	May 22 19:54
DaemonFC	yeah, but what they should do is make two APIs	May 22 19:54
DaemonFC	one optimized for the gaming industry	May 22 19:54
MinceR	sounds like a very bad idea to me	May 22 19:54
DaemonFC	and one for stuff like CAD and such	May 22 19:54
DaemonFC	that's basically what they're doing	May 22 19:55
mib_lvp5dj	directX is for games as formats are to MS Office	May 22 19:55
DaemonFC	post-OpenGL 3	May 22 19:55
MinceR	which would they use for desktop compositing and 3d screensavers?	May 22 19:55
DaemonFC	with all this talk of different "dialects" of OpenGL	May 22 19:55
DaemonFC	look at their plans	May 22 19:55
MinceR	by "dialects", you mean vendor-specific extensions?	May 22 19:55
DaemonFC	no, I mean they've decided to split the API	May 22 19:56
DaemonFC	for different purposes	May 22 19:56
DaemonFC	It's all pretty vague, but they were talking about it on Wikipedia	May 22 19:56
DaemonFC	and on their roadmap	May 22 19:56
mib_lvp5dj	DirectX is used as a means for M$ to control the gaming platform on intel based PC's	May 22 19:57
DaemonFC	yeah, but basically all Wine does is translate	May 22 19:57
mib_lvp5dj	its evil in itself	May 22 19:57
mib_lvp5dj	M$ would patent the air itself if they could get away with it	May 22 19:59
mib_lvp5dj	DaemonFC, I too was a gamer at one point	May 22 19:59
DaemonFC	no company wouldn't patent the air	May 22 19:59
DaemonFC	:P	May 22 19:59
mib_lvp5dj	good point. lol	May 22 20:00
DaemonFC	hmmm, I wonder if I can sync my Zune in Linux	May 22 20:00
DaemonFC	I know Rhythmbox can sync MTP devices	May 22 20:00
DaemonFC	will have to wait til it gets here	May 22 20:00
mib_lvp5dj	I have a scandisk mp3 player and have not tried it yet	May 22 20:01
DaemonFC	it can play un-DRM'd AAC and MP3	May 22 20:01
DaemonFC	and it was cheap as all hell	May 22 20:01
mib_lvp5dj	Scandisk was #2 behind Ipod last I knew, with Zune a distance 3rd in sales	May 22 20:01
DaemonFC	scandisk?	May 22 20:01
DaemonFC	:D	May 22 20:01
mib_lvp5dj	cheap is always a good deal	May 22 20:01
mib_lvp5dj	but myself, I would still not buy M$, ever, but thats just me	May 22 20:02
DaemonFC	http://www.sfsu.edu/~helpdesk/pics/scandisk_startup.gif	May 22 20:02
DaemonFC	:D	May 22 20:02
DaemonFC	http://www.gdhpress.com.br/hardware/leia/cap6-6_html_2de5b411.gif	May 22 20:02
DaemonFC	(old style)	May 22 20:02
DaemonFC	they did explain why they chose blue at one point	May 22 20:03
DaemonFC	for the BSOD	May 22 20:03
mib_lvp5dj	correction=scandisk=sansa it was a birthday present	May 22 20:03
DaemonFC	"The colour blue was chosen because the console colours of the Alpha, a platform that runs a version of Windows NT, could not be changed easily."	May 22 20:04
DaemonFC	:P	May 22 20:04
DaemonFC	heh	May 22 20:05
mib_lvp5dj	NT3.11, NT3.51 or NT4.0?	May 22 20:05
mib_lvp5dj	most likely NT3.51	May 22 20:05
DaemonFC	Windows 2000 Beta 4 was the last version that ran on the DEC Alpha	May 22 20:05
mib_lvp5dj	NT3.11 not to be confused with WFW3.11	May 22 20:06
DaemonFC	The last to support PowerPC was NT 4 which would also run on PPC Macs	May 22 20:06
DaemonFC	there was no NT 3.11	May 22 20:06
DaemonFC	there was 3.1, 3.5, and 3.51	May 22 20:06
mib_lvp5dj	OS/2 had a port to the powerpc	May 22 20:06
DaemonFC	yeah, Apple made a mistake choosing PowerPC	May 22 20:07
DaemonFC	well, a couple really	May 22 20:07
DaemonFC	The economy of scale was never there so PPC chips cost more than x86, and the performance of the PPC was never really as good as x86, and the power consumption of the G5 was just horrible	May 22 20:08
mib_lvp5dj	BeOS early version also ran on powerpc	May 22 20:08
mib_lvp5dj	yes	May 22 20:08
DaemonFC	so in moving the Mac to x86, they took advantage of the economies of scale provided by the fact that Windows runs on those systems	May 22 20:08
DaemonFC	and instead of lowering the retail price, they pocketed the difference	May 22 20:09
DaemonFC	:D	May 22 20:09
mib_lvp5dj	anyone know what xbox360 use? Is it intel? Or powerpc (I doubt)	May 22 20:09
DaemonFC	you notice that OS X was always on both platforms, they jsut never transitioned til 2005	May 22 20:09
DaemonFC	360 uses the Xenon processor	May 22 20:10
DaemonFC	a customized variant of the PPC G5	May 22 20:10
DaemonFC	with 3 cores	May 22 20:10
DaemonFC	@ 3.2 Ghz	May 22 20:10
mib_lvp5dj	so it needs powerpc code?	May 22 20:10
DaemonFC	which explains partially why it needs that power brick	May 22 20:10
DaemonFC	:)	May 22 20:10
DaemonFC	yeah, it runs a customized version of the Windows 2000 kernel	May 22 20:11
mib_lvp5dj	helps to explain the overheating problem then	May 22 20:11
DaemonFC	it also ships with a specialized version of DirectX 9	May 22 20:11
mib_lvp5dj	RROD and E74 issues somewhat, still its almost all bad design	May 22 20:11
DaemonFC	which was really an early build of DirectX 10	May 22 20:11
DaemonFC	so it has some features of 10	May 22 20:11
DaemonFC	no, it's not really bad design, it was really unfinished	May 22 20:12
DaemonFC	bad MANAGEMENT was responsible for the bad hardware	May 22 20:12
DaemonFC	cause they wanted to one up Sony	May 22 20:12
mib_lvp5dj	M$ must have want it that way (PowerPC on Xbox360) to prevent games from being easily hacked to run on regular windows PC's	May 22 20:12
DaemonFC	if they had delayed it a year and not cheaped out on the cooling system	May 22 20:13
DaemonFC	all the kinks would be worked out	May 22 20:13
DaemonFC	yeah	May 22 20:13
DaemonFC	cause there's a number of XBOX emulators for PC	May 22 20:13
DaemonFC	that don't need to emulate the CPU instructions	May 22 20:13
mib_lvp5dj	a year delay would not have made a difference, just look at how long it took M$ to turn out Vi$ta	May 22 20:13
mib_lvp5dj	it might have been worse	May 22 20:14
DaemonFC	meh, too many people got to hook onto Vista with their pet projects	May 22 20:14
mib_lvp5dj	if possible	May 22 20:14
DaemonFC	and all the really cool stuff was ditched when they started over	May 22 20:14
DaemonFC	I have all the old Longhorn XP builds	May 22 20:14
mib_lvp5dj	Xbox360 might have been "the system" if it was dependable, hardware wise, and had not destroyed disks	May 22 20:15
DaemonFC	they worked on it for a couple years before they gave up and started over	May 22 20:15
mib_lvp5dj	me too, I have all the old longhorn	May 22 20:15
DaemonFC	well, that's what happens when you go with the lowest bidder	May 22 20:15
DaemonFC	and cheap out on design	May 22 20:15
mib_lvp5dj	up to 2003 and then stopped	May 22 20:15
DaemonFC	they wanted to have the most powerful system and they weren't willing to pay to make it reliable	May 22 20:16
DaemonFC	so it's a good system for the month or two it lives	May 22 20:16
DaemonFC	lol	May 22 20:16
DaemonFC	yeah	May 22 20:16
mib_lvp5dj	its only as good as its warrenty, for 1 year, and 3 years now on RROD and E74.	May 22 20:16
DaemonFC	they change their support roadmaps all the time	May 22 20:17
DaemonFC	because peo