IRC: #boycottnovell @ FreeNode: May 24th, 2009

DaemonFC	but they aren't	May 24 00:00
MinceR	intrepid was a train wreck for me	May 24 00:00
MinceR	it still is	May 24 00:00
DaemonFC	worked fine for me	May 24 00:00
DaemonFC	but Jaunty doesn't	May 24 00:00
DaemonFC	when things break you take a look around and maybe find more things you don't like	May 24 00:00
MinceR	yay, let's completely change how x is configured and not document anything about it!	May 24 00:00
MinceR	yay, let's drop the one usable desktop environment from the distro!	May 24 00:01
DaemonFC	most of them remove Ctrl-Alt-Bksp so you can't reset it when it freezes	May 24 00:01
DaemonFC	because stupid people were mistakenly triggering resets	May 24 00:01
DaemonFC	with three keys spaced out unnaturally on the keyboard :)	May 24 00:01
MinceR	they should make x stable first	May 24 00:01
MinceR	it's like removing the reset button from cases	May 24 00:02
MinceR	a case of overblown self-confidence	May 24 00:02
DaemonFC	well now if X freezes you have to hold in the power button	May 24 00:02
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DaemonFC	then a little googling reveals you have to edit xorg.conf to get it back	May 24 00:02
MinceR	truth be told, ctrl+alt+backspace won't help in a real x freeze anyway	May 24 00:02
MinceR	editing xorg.conf won't get you anywhere since they've changed how it's configured	May 24 00:03
MinceR	now you have to screw around under /etc/hal.d or something	May 24 00:03
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tacone	sudo apt-get install dontzap	May 24 00:03
chips_b_malroy	Hi all, could not connect to BN, until just now, was the site ddos again?	May 24 00:03
tacone	dontzap #it will get you the options	May 24 00:03
tacone	chips_b_malroy: apparently yes	May 24 00:04
tacone	chips_b_malroy: truth hurts.	May 24 00:04
chips_b_malroy	tacone, ok	May 24 00:04
chips_b_malroy	Roy, I think he is using ssh somehow	May 24 00:05
tacone	chips_b_malroy: guess he's asleep	May 24 00:05
tessier	Software/hardware are not as predictable as we would like because they are so insanely complicated because we want to do things like browse the web and play games with 3d animation	May 24 00:06
tessier	My Atari 2600 never crashed on me once that I can recall.	May 24 00:06
MinceR	and because m$ has lowered the standards beyond imagination	May 24 00:06
MinceR	(expectations)	May 24 00:06
tacone	if linux was the standard there would be 100th times working force on code reliability	May 24 00:07
tacone	maybe more.	May 24 00:08
chips_b_malroy	Using Fail2Ban to refuse brute-force attacks http://gleamynode.net/articles/2216/	May 24 00:08
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tacone	that's just ip based	May 24 00:09
chips_b_malroy	http://laurentbois.com/2008/03/24/brute-force-attacks-ddos-what-are-my-defenses/	May 24 00:09
chips_b_malroy	this one too most likely	May 24 00:09
chips_b_malroy	still my understand is if you can prevent them from connecting by ip	May 24 00:10
tacone	tessier: could you have a look ?	May 24 00:10
chips_b_malroy	from what I read this is a tor attack	May 24 00:11
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chips_b_malroy	the person I think did this has wrote a lot about ssh online and some on ddos	May 24 00:13
chips_b_malroy	and tor	May 24 00:14
tacone	the person who has done the attack or the program ?	May 24 00:15
chips_b_malroy	the attack	May 24 00:15
MinceR	who is it?	May 24 00:16
chips_b_malroy	I cannot be sure, so I will not say, Roy has the information	May 24 00:16
chips_b_malroy	not on a public log	May 24 00:16
tacone	if roy has the info already, then fine.	May 24 00:16
chips_b_malroy	I don't want to do anything that causes libility for BN, u understand	May 24 00:18
DaemonFC	I don't know, everytime I get fed up with something one OS does t hat pisses me off and go to the other one, it does that part right and messes something else up	May 24 00:19
MinceR	same with desktop environments	May 24 00:19
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DaemonFC	But I don't like Ubuntu's developers	May 24 00:19
DaemonFC	I just personally really don't	May 24 00:19
DaemonFC	they're not approachable	May 24 00:19
MinceR	we know, gregkh said they're the devil	May 24 00:19
DaemonFC	he's right	May 24 00:19
MinceR	he's paid by m$ to say so, therefore he must be right	May 24 00:20
MinceR	oh, wait	May 24 00:20
DaemonFC	I don't use OpenSuse, I don't think it's all that great ever since they decided they wanted to be an MS Windows Server clone	May 24 00:20
DaemonFC	but they do contribute to things	May 24 00:20
DaemonFC	well, Novell thinks there's all this money in offering second rate knockoffs of Microsoft things	May 24 00:21
DaemonFC	and there won't be	May 24 00:21
DaemonFC	because if you want to use a Microsoft product you'd buy a Microsoft product	May 24 00:21
chips_b_malroy	I use Mepis PCLinuxos and Sidux	May 24 00:21
chips_b_malroy	there is money in it now, thats what keeping Novell going	May 24 00:21
MinceR	DaemonFC: strange, you keep boosting windows all day and then you complain because you think opensuse is copying it	May 24 00:22
DaemonFC	Mono is not .Net compatible, OpenOffice is not MS Office compatible, I mean if you're paying an outrageous amount either way and you're a business	May 24 00:22
DaemonFC	you're not going to want to run OpenSuse	May 24 00:22
MinceR	i guess it's my fault for trying to understand how a nutcase thinks.	May 24 00:22
DaemonFC	well, it's like OpenSuse is trying to be a generic off-brand of Windows	May 24 00:23
DaemonFC	and customers just aren't having it	May 24 00:23
DaemonFC	you know?	May 24 00:23
DaemonFC	that's why their stock is not doing well	May 24 00:23
DaemonFC	this is usually what happens when a Linux distro goes that route	May 24 00:23
chips_b_malroy	Once in awhile I have to play around with windows myself. Mostly to update and keep track of all the antivirus and anitmalware programs. in case I get another windows computer to clean out. have one coming in next week	May 24 00:24
DaemonFC	they twitch and stumble around in the wilderness for a few years then go bust	May 24 00:24
DaemonFC	they aren't 100% Windows compatible, the Linux community doesn't like or trust them	May 24 00:24
DaemonFC	so they are off on their own	May 24 00:24
DaemonFC	Linspire	May 24 00:25
DaemonFC	:)	May 24 00:25
tessier	chips_b_malroy: I'm already using fail2ban	May 24 00:25
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chips_b_malroy	ok tessier, guess I not much help	May 24 00:25
DaemonFC	Now 9 years ago I heard about Lindows, but they weren;t saying much other than it was going to be like Windows and run all these Windows applications	May 24 00:25
DaemonFC	the word Linux wasn't even on their site anywhere	May 24 00:26
DaemonFC	much less Wine	May 24 00:26
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DaemonFC	so I was real excited cause I figured there may be some truth to what they were alluding	May 24 00:26
chips_b_malroy	and it used to log in a root too	May 24 00:26
DaemonFC	yeah	May 24 00:26
chips_b_malroy	puppy used to do that	May 24 00:27
chips_b_malroy	too	May 24 00:27
DaemonFC	my expectations died down considerably when they said Linux+Wine and you get to pay us a monthly fee for access to our repository :P	May 24 00:27
chips_b_malroy	not sure about the newest one	May 24 00:27
DaemonFC	well, every once in a while someone tries to hype their distro up like that as "Come to us and you can keep your Windows apps too"	May 24 00:28
chips_b_malroy	DSL was a great small distro, but the two guys running it split up	May 24 00:28
DaemonFC	and it's never worked out like that	May 24 00:28
DaemonFC	Mandriva tried that with 8.1 "Gaming Edition"	May 24 00:28
DaemonFC	they even threw in The Sims and a few other Windows games	May 24 00:28
DaemonFC	then you find out it was Transgaming WineX and you get to fork over more money if you want to run much else	May 24 00:29
chips_b_malroy	DaemonFC, run what u can with wine/crossover, the others with XP inside virtualbox. and if you really have to, dual boot linux and xp	May 24 00:29
DaemonFC	I have every version of Windows there's ever been in every edition	May 24 00:30
DaemonFC	and a huge stack of software for it	May 24 00:30
DaemonFC	:P	May 24 00:30
chips_b_malroy	me too, up to 2003	May 24 00:30
DaemonFC	I also have all Vista editions and all Server 2008 editions	May 24 00:30
chips_b_malroy	but I go back further to dos and os/2 software	May 24 00:30
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DaemonFC	anything that crops up on MSDN or Technet	May 24 00:31
chips_b_malroy	I stopped with Vista, had most of the longhorn builds. Vista is just a pos	May 24 00:31
DaemonFC	Longhorn builds were decent til they started adding stupid shit and cutting out things that were neat to rush it out	May 24 00:32
DaemonFC	it turned out to be a bloated XP, kind of	May 24 00:32
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MinceR	xp turned out to be a bloated xp, too	May 24 00:33
DaemonFC	XP isn't horribly bloated	May 24 00:33
MinceR	depends on your definition of "horribly"	May 24 00:33
DaemonFC	XP is only about 20% bigger than Windows 2000	May 24 00:33
DaemonFC	Vista is about 900% bigger than XP	May 24 00:33
MinceR	in my book, a search indexer that grinds the hdd but doesn't speed up searching definitely qualifies as "horribly bloated"	May 24 00:34
chips_b_malroy	about 14 months before vista was released they threw the towel in on Longhorn based on xp code. Bill decided to base it on 2003 code and rewrite 60% of it. Most likely because they had just made deals with sony/toshiba/hollywood to put in the massive DRM	May 24 00:34
DaemonFC	well, the Windows Search 4.0 is better about that	May 24 00:34
DaemonFC	I never notice my hard disk grinding	May 24 00:34
MinceR	so is slocate	May 24 00:34
MinceR	and tracker	May 24 00:34
DaemonFC	a problem with the old Vista search indexer was the grinding plus outdated search results	May 24 00:34
DaemonFC	the new one improved considerably	May 24 00:34
MinceR	oh, and windows messenger installed and running by default qualifies as "horribly bloated", too	May 24 00:35
DaemonFC	like with Vista search in Vista SP1, you may have a folder of pictures that it swears are empty when you search it cause it's not updated the index	May 24 00:35
DaemonFC	it doesn't do that in SP2	May 24 00:35
DaemonFC	Vista doesn't have Windows Messenger	May 24 00:36
DaemonFC	and you can uninstall it from XP	May 24 00:36
DaemonFC	development on Windows Messenger was halted 3 years ago	May 24 00:36
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DaemonFC	Windows Live Messenger has succeeded it	May 24 00:37
chips_b_malroy	new name but is the product much diff?	May 24 00:37
DaemonFC	extremely different	May 24 00:37
DaemonFC	much better actually	May 24 00:37
chips_b_malroy	good, the old messinger was a viral target	May 24 00:38
_Hicham_	the new one is still a viral target	May 24 00:38
DaemonFC	the new one lets you select to scan incoming files before they're offered to you	May 24 00:38
chips_b_malroy	figures	May 24 00:38
MinceR	of course i can uninstall it	May 24 00:38
DaemonFC	and block anything that may be a virus	May 24 00:38
_Hicham_	better use an efficient client	May 24 00:38
MinceR	i can even delete the partition	May 24 00:38
MinceR	but why do i need to do it?	May 24 00:38
_Hicham_	pidgin is better	May 24 00:39
chips_b_malroy	DaemonFC try this Format C:	May 24 00:39
chips_b_malroy	for vista	May 24 00:39
MinceR	format c: /u /autotest	May 24 00:39
_Hicham_	will Vista format itself?	May 24 00:39
MinceR	dunno	May 24 00:39
chips_b_malroy	big improvement in vista if u remove it	May 24 00:39
_Hicham_	Vista is great, and DaemonFC testifies about this	May 24 00:40
_Hicham_	isn't it DaemonFC?	May 24 00:40
chips_b_malroy	old windows would but ask you the drive name	May 24 00:40
MinceR	vista is great!	May 24 00:40
MinceR	...for me to poop on!	May 24 00:40
DaemonFC	format C: doesn't do anything	May 24 00:40
DaemonFC	:)	May 24 00:40
_Hicham_	Yes, it rocks!	May 24 00:40
_Hicham_	hahahahahaha	May 24 00:41
macabe	chips: Didn't format C: /select do that without prompts?	May 24 00:41
chips_b_malroy	of course, but u running as limited user	May 24 00:41
DaemonFC	http://img43.imageshack.us/img43/7460/38096648.png	May 24 00:41
chips_b_malroy	I was asked by a custormer to put handbrake on their computer, they also wanted a dual boot system	May 24 00:43
chips_b_malroy	Vista home was on the laptop, dual core	May 24 00:43
MinceR	that's the handbrake, i presume	May 24 00:43
DaemonFC	want me to do it as Administrator?	May 24 00:44
DaemonFC	:D	May 24 00:44
chips_b_malroy	after finially getting handbrake to run in vista, two hacks	May 24 00:44
MinceR	oh, it's a program?	May 24 00:44
DaemonFC	http://img43.imageshack.us/img43/74/49184482.png	May 24 00:44
DaemonFC	chips_b_malroy: There you are	May 24 00:44
chips_b_malroy	it ran twice as slow as handbrake in linux within XP inside of virtualbox	May 24 00:44
DaemonFC	I told you it wouldn't do it	May 24 00:45
DaemonFC	now Linux will gladly go kill itself	May 24 00:45
DaemonFC	if you are root and do rm -rf /	May 24 00:45
MinceR	you didn't do the equivalent of rm -rf /	May 24 00:45
chips_b_malroy	also I was afriad that handbrake/vista was going melt the plastic in the bottom of the laptop, ran cool the linux virtualbox xp way	May 24 00:45
DaemonFC	Vista doesn't have deltree	May 24 00:46
MinceR	now tell us how great a feature that is	May 24 00:46
DaemonFC	I could go to the root folder and use del ., but it can't delete any files that are in use	May 24 00:47
DaemonFC	so that wouldn't cripple the system	May 24 00:47
MinceR	it wouldn't? go ahead and try it	May 24 00:47
_Hicham_	DaemonFC : Ubuntu doesn't do rm -rf /	May 24 00:48
MinceR	windows' crappy filesystem handling isn't going to save the system	May 24 00:48
DaemonFC	yes	May 24 00:48
_Hicham_	the binutils have been patched	May 24 00:48
chips_b_malroy	u might need 3rd party software to do that DaemonFC	May 24 00:48
MinceR	since it doesn't keep all its important files open at all times	May 24 00:48
DaemonFC	you can use rm -rf in Ooga Booga	May 24 00:48
_Hicham_	by a stupid user request	May 24 00:48
DaemonFC	:P	May 24 00:48
chips_b_malroy	in vista	May 24 00:48
_Hicham_	what the point in preventing that?	May 24 00:49
DaemonFC	Ubuntu will let you use sudo rm -rf	May 24 00:49
_Hicham_	no	May 24 00:49
MinceR	_Hicham_: it's crApple thinking	May 24 00:49
_Hicham_	it won't	May 24 00:49
DaemonFC	I've used it	May 24 00:49
DaemonFC	in Jaunty	May 24 00:49
DaemonFC	so I know it does	May 24 00:49
_Hicham_	in Jaunty?	May 24 00:49
DaemonFC	yes	May 24 00:49
_Hicham_	and it worked?	May 24 00:49
DaemonFC	yes	May 24 00:49
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DaemonFC	surprises me that they haven't crippled the OS to account for their idiot user base though	May 24 00:50
MinceR	idiots who complain because they ran a command that means breaking the system and succeeded shouldn't use computers	May 24 00:50
DaemonFC	but it still has some UNIX in it yet	May 24 00:50
DaemonFC	:P	May 24 00:50
_Hicham_	wait, I will look for the "bug" in launchpad	May 24 00:50
chips_b_malroy	DaemonFC in Mepis 8 go to system--Mepis--Mepis network assistant to setup your wireless	May 24 00:50
MinceR	just like idiots who can't tell the difference between their index and middle fingers	May 24 00:50
MinceR	DaemonFC: you seem to be confusing ubuntu with osx	May 24 00:51
DaemonFC	no, Ubuntu is trying to be like the Mac	May 24 00:51
DaemonFC	but not succeeding	May 24 00:51
chips_b_malroy	agree	May 24 00:51
MinceR	i'm thankful for their failure at doing so	May 24 00:51
DaemonFC	Often imitated, never duplicated :)	May 24 00:51
_Hicham_	that is very bad	May 24 00:52
_Hicham_	to cripple the user freedom	May 24 00:52
DaemonFC	Yeah, well, they try to dumb things down to gain more users who are capable of using it, and it never works	May 24 00:53
DaemonFC	if that line of thinking worked, Microsoft would have every 60-90 year old that never bothered to use a computer til (insert Windows version here)	May 24 00:53
_Hicham_	https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/coreutils/+bug/174283	May 24 00:53
MinceR	it works for crApple	May 24 00:54
MinceR	they seem to be getting all kinds of idiot users who don't even know why they'd want something resembling a computer for	May 24 00:54
DaemonFC	heh	May 24 00:55
ushimitsudoki	You are looking at Ubuntu the wrong way. Instead of tearing down the distro because it is "newbie-friendly", that should be the place to install FLOSS values and thinking to newcomers	May 24 00:55
DaemonFC	dumbing down software to fish for new users happens every revision	May 24 00:55
DaemonFC	for the last 20 years	May 24 00:55
DaemonFC	and Ubuntu is as guilty of it as Microsoft	May 24 00:55
ushimitsudoki	It is frustrating sometimes, because so many newcomers to Ubuntu basically want a "no-cost version of Windows", rather than Linux, but it is the best opportunity to present the world of Linux to many people	May 24 00:56
MinceR	"newbie-friendly" and "dumbed down" are not the same thing	May 24 00:56
ushimitsudoki	And Ubuntu is not "as guilty of it" as Microsoft is. That's just pure bullshit spouting off	May 24 00:56
DaemonFC	it's dumbed down, at the point where you can't fix it	May 24 00:56
MinceR	"newbie friendly": providing sane defaults, documentation and gui config tools	May 24 00:56
DaemonFC	it's friendly when that's simply the default	May 24 00:56
DaemonFC	with a way back	May 24 00:56
MinceR	"dumbed down": removing features because they might confuse users	May 24 00:56
DaemonFC	right, like xchat-gnome	May 24 00:57
ushimitsudoki	First off, ubuntu offers several DE choices to the user, right from the package manager.	May 24 00:57
DaemonFC	prime example of dumbed down	May 24 00:57
ushimitsudoki	A newcomer to Linux is well served by Gnome.	May 24 00:57
chips_b_malroy	ubuntu made a lot of changes from stock Debian. They hosed beyond repair alsa for some old thinkpads	May 24 00:57
MinceR	gnome is dumbed down	May 24 00:57
ushimitsudoki	Imagine if a new comer had to use Gentoo or Slackware? What percentage would stick to it? 1%? 2%	May 24 00:57
DaemonFC	they hosed it for me on a system that's 1 year old	May 24 00:57
DaemonFC	fuckers	May 24 00:57
DaemonFC	:P	May 24 00:58
chips_b_malroy	that said, its not so bad for newbies	May 24 00:58
DaemonFC	parden my french	May 24 00:58
MinceR	ushimitsudoki: m$ is working hard at helping them with that	May 24 00:58
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chips_b_malroy	mono will cure everything	May 24 00:58
MinceR	lol	May 24 00:58
ushimitsudoki	A newcomer to Linux by way of a distro like Ubuntu has a much larger change of sticking with Linux	May 24 00:58
DaemonFC	Gentoo and Slackware are obscure because they choose to be	May 24 00:58
DaemonFC	not because there's any practical reason to be	May 24 00:58
ushimitsudoki	No. They are obscure because they are harder than chinese arthimetic	May 24 00:58
MinceR	gentoo has priorities that match those of a tiny minority.	May 24 00:59
DaemonFC	they put the emphasis on "Here's 200 configuration switches for every package"	May 24 00:59
DaemonFC	Where Ubuntu is like a nursery	May 24 00:59
MinceR	slackware don't trust any package manager to install any by default	May 24 00:59
MinceR	that's why they're obscure.	May 24 00:59
DaemonFC	package managers aren't inherently evil	May 24 00:59
chips_b_malroy	hunting down all the dependacies in a slackware make install is more than I want to do, yes I can, but why?	May 24 00:59
ushimitsudoki	So, how would you introduce newcomers to Linux? If not a simplified distribution?	May 24 00:59
DaemonFC	unfortunately some work better than others	May 24 01:00
MinceR	gentoo considers a tiny performance gain more important than being able to compile the package at all	May 24 01:00
_Hicham_	Google Chromium is working in Linux	May 24 01:00
_Hicham_	Finally	May 24 01:00
ushimitsudoki	It's perfectly reasonable to "dumb-down" things for newcomers.	May 24 01:00
_Hicham_	it renders pages	May 24 01:00
ushimitsudoki	Or even to "dumb-down" things for non-enthusiasts	May 24 01:00
MinceR	_Hicham_: what's missing?	May 24 01:00
MinceR	ushimitsudoki: no it isn't	May 24 01:00
MinceR	ushimitsudoki: it leads to osx	May 24 01:00
ushimitsudoki	Pick any other part of your life that you are not an enthusiatst in	May 24 01:00
ushimitsudoki	I guarantee you are using "dumbed down" equipment	May 24 01:00
MinceR	the user can't improve their knowledge, they can't do more with the system	May 24 01:00
macabe	So middle of the road in Linux usage would be....	May 24 01:01
_Hicham_	MinceR : Options are not implemented yet	May 24 01:01
MinceR	the system won't grow with the user because it's limited	May 24 01:01
ushimitsudoki	So, don't get holy about a distribution being "dumbed-down" - it serves a well defined purpose.	May 24 01:01
MinceR	the user thinks he could do things better with a little change? sorry, that option isn't included because it might confuse the user.	May 24 01:01
MinceR	never mind that it could be turned back off.	May 24 01:01
chips_b_malroy	most users are not going grow, they surf, get email, write a letter, and play a few small basic games	May 24 01:01
MinceR	there are many ways to do those things	May 24 01:02
MinceR	and how can you tell if a particular user will never want any other app?	May 24 01:02
MinceR	what gives you the authority to lock them out of those options?	May 24 01:02
ushimitsudoki	ubuntu has all those options. you can use virutally any DE / application / login manager / shell you want with ubuntu	May 24 01:02
MinceR	forever?	May 24 01:02
ushimitsudoki	you are not locked out	May 24 01:02
ushimitsudoki	I use XFCE with SLIM and fish shell on ubuntu	May 24 01:02
MinceR	i use kde4 with gnome-panel	May 24 01:03
ushimitsudoki	there is no "lock out"	May 24 01:03
MinceR	on ubuntu	May 24 01:03
ushimitsudoki	that is simply untrue	May 24 01:03
MinceR	but i'm getting sick of plasma eating cpu	May 24 01:03
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_Hicham_	there u go DaemonFC : http://img41.imageshack.us/img41/6085/screenshotr.png	May 24 01:03
ushimitsudoki	Do you really think a newcomer needs to be presented with every choice right off the go? Far better to present them with a simple and working environment to become familiar with, and let them make changes as they learn more	May 24 01:03
MinceR	well, with gnome you can switch DEs	May 24 01:04
ushimitsudoki	To do it the other way around is a much harder argument to make	May 24 01:04
MinceR	but it's probably easier for a newbie to enable options in the DE he's accustomed to	May 24 01:04
MinceR	instead of looking for others	May 24 01:04
DaemonFC	yeah, it works well enough to take pictures	May 24 01:04
DaemonFC	same as when I tried it	May 24 01:04
MinceR	ushimitsudoki: the "simple and working" environment is already there	May 24 01:04
MinceR	the options are in the menus and the config dialogs.	May 24 01:04
_Hicham_	DaemonFC : did u try it on Linux?	May 24 01:04
ushimitsudoki	MinceR: what is that then?	May 24 01:05
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DaemonFC	yeah	May 24 01:05
DaemonFC	Chrome only works well enough to use on Windows	May 24 01:05
DaemonFC	at this point	May 24 01:05
MinceR	ushimitsudoki: "dumbing down" means having to look for another tool for the job the moment you need a little more than the default	May 24 01:06
ushimitsudoki	MinceR: that's the definition you give now - i don't agree and have never heard it defined that way.	May 24 01:06
chips_b_malroy	the build of chrome I have works good, took me awhile to figure out how to enable bookmarks	May 24 01:06
MinceR	ushimitsudoki: well, how do you define "dumbing down", then?	May 24 01:07
ushimitsudoki	Basically, I think the criticism of Ubuntu is not fact-based. It's a bunch of one-liners with no thought behind them. That's not saying that Ubuntu is perfect by any means, but it serves an important and difficult role	May 24 01:07
ushimitsudoki	MinceR: I don't. I'm not the one making the allegation.	May 24 01:08
DaemonFC	I used it pretty much exclusively from 2006	May 24 01:08
DaemonFC	to last month	May 24 01:08
MinceR	ushimitsudoki: so you argue about something but you don't know what it is?	May 24 01:08
DaemonFC	not like 3 years of dealing with it every day would let me know what I'm saying	May 24 01:08
MinceR	my problem with ubuntu is that they said they're going to make a stable release every 6 months but i don't think intrepid can be considered a stable release.	May 24 01:09
DaemonFC	Jaunty finally is what made me ditch it and come up for air	May 24 01:09
DaemonFC	but it's been getting to this point for over a year	May 24 01:09
_Hicham_	Ubuntu policy is to fuck upstream projects	May 24 01:10
_Hicham_	starting from kernel	May 24 01:10
DaemonFC	exactly	May 24 01:10
_Hicham_	to Firefox	May 24 01:10
ushimitsudoki	_Hicham_: that's just pure bullshit.	May 24 01:10
_Hicham_	OpenOffice	May 24 01:10
DaemonFC	and make it like pulling teeth to build your own	May 24 01:10
_Hicham_	everything is just plain fucked	May 24 01:10
MinceR	_Hicham_: define "fuck"	May 24 01:11
DaemonFC	since they basically just clone Debian every 6 months the kernel build stuff is more or less there	May 24 01:11
_Hicham_	you file a bug report to launchpad, they file it upstream	May 24 01:11
ushimitsudoki	See, that's what I mean - people just shit out one liners of criticism that are obvious hyperbole and drama	May 24 01:11
DaemonFC	but you have to yank out shit that will molest your new kernel packages	May 24 01:11
_Hicham_	most of the time it is their patches that create problems	May 24 01:11
DaemonFC	like nvidia-common	May 24 01:11
DaemonFC	and the restricted drivers manager	May 24 01:11
ushimitsudoki	How can you take that seriously? There are problems and issues with Ubuntu, but BS one-liners don't add anything to the discussion	May 24 01:11
DaemonFC	it's absolutely their shit that messes it up	May 24 01:11
_Hicham_	better stick with upstream projects	May 24 01:12
ushimitsudoki	As if there is an official policy to make upstream life difficult. Ridiculous.	May 24 01:12
DaemonFC	and then they just keep trying to slap patches that may fix it into test kernels	May 24 01:12
DaemonFC	til one of them kind of works	May 24 01:12
DaemonFC	bunch of stooges	May 24 01:12
chips_b_malroy	it doesn't do any good to bash other distro's, even i would use ubuntu instead of winders	May 24 01:12
_Hicham_	they don't contribute back	May 24 01:12
_Hicham_	they don't take upstream projects seriously	May 24 01:12
ushimitsudoki	_Hicham_: yes they do. A number of Ubuntu devs are also upstream devs.	May 24 01:12
DaemonFC	no, what finally pissed me off beyond the point of no return was their idiocy regarding Pulseaudio, ALSA, and HDA drivers	May 24 01:13
DaemonFC	they are morons	May 24 01:13
ushimitsudoki	_Hicham_: brainstorm and launchpad host projects/ideas/source for ubuntu and upstream projects	May 24 01:13
DaemonFC	I am convinced	May 24 01:13
_Hicham_	some kernel hackers that create more problems than solutions	May 24 01:13
DaemonFC	it was obvious they had NO IDEA how to fix it without pulling in huge new packages in their entirety	May 24 01:13
_Hicham_	they contributed 100 patches to kernel over 3 years	May 24 01:13
DaemonFC	so they backported some halfassed patches that kind of fixed it	May 24 01:14
_Hicham_	3 years or more I think	May 24 01:14
DaemonFC	and said case closed	May 24 01:14
DaemonFC	still doesn't work right	May 24 01:14
DaemonFC	not even close	May 24 01:14
chips_b_malroy	would you rather suse was on the top of the distrowatch list?	May 24 01:15
ushimitsudoki	_Hicham_: so is your argument that they don't contribute enough, then? Because at first you just said "they don't contribute back"	May 24 01:15
DaemonFC	they basically removed some of the visible surface signs of a much larger underlying problem	May 24 01:15
DaemonFC	that was beyond their means to find or fix	May 24 01:15
ushimitsudoki	Sounds like some moving goalposts in here. as usual.	May 24 01:15
_Hicham_	yes, they should contribute enough	May 24 01:15
_Hicham_	and be grateful	May 24 01:15
_Hicham_	and help testing	May 24 01:15
_Hicham_	in their non LTS releases	May 24 01:15
DaemonFC	I never recommend Ubuntu anymore is someone asks me	May 24 01:15
DaemonFC	I tell them they may as well go slam their dick in a car door because it's less painful than making Ubuntu work right	May 24 01:16
DaemonFC	and that's the truth	May 24 01:16
ushimitsudoki	DaemonFC: yes that is unbiased, un-hyperbole truth	May 24 01:16
ushimitsudoki	idiot.	May 24 01:16
ushimitsudoki	Newsflash: screaming slogans and blowing minor issues wildly out of proportion doesn't win arguments.	May 24 01:17
_Hicham_	ushimitsudoki : why u refuse to see things clearly?	May 24 01:17
DaemonFC	not a minor issue	May 24 01:17
DaemonFC	corrupts the sound stack, makes it sound like shit	May 24 01:17
ushimitsudoki	It just makes you look unreasonable and discounts any valid criticism you might have.	May 24 01:17
DaemonFC	now forget doing audio mixing	May 24 01:17
_Hicham_	these are not minor issues	May 24 01:17
DaemonFC	you can just forget that	May 24 01:17
ushimitsudoki	For example, you may have a valid point that Canonical could do more to contribute upstream.	May 24 01:18
DaemonFC	Ubuntu is beyond worthless	May 24 01:18
_Hicham_	Canonical doesn't give a shit about upstream	May 24 01:18
ushimitsudoki	But you destroy your own argument when you say they have an official policy to "fuck" upstream	May 24 01:18
ushimitsudoki	thank you for proving my point	May 24 01:18
DaemonFC	no, the quality of their releases depend on whatever packages they swipe from upstream	May 24 01:18
DaemonFC	totally	May 24 01:18
DaemonFC	and then they molest them to get them to do something they weren't meant to	May 24 01:18
twitter	ushimitsudoki: So, how would you introduce newcomers to Linux? If not a simplified distribution?	May 24 01:18
twitter	Knoppix or some other live CD. Install Mepis, it only takes 15 minutes on a slow computer. Teach them command line and file system basics, another 10 minutes to show them directories, config files and tab complete. In less than an hour, they are good to go. It's that easy.	May 24 01:18
DaemonFC	and break my hardware in the process	May 24 01:18
DaemonFC	they are nits	May 24 01:19
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ushimitsudoki	twitter: I would recommend a simplified distro. that is my position.	May 24 01:19
_Hicham_	I am not talking about newbies	May 24 01:19
twitter	What's easier than Mepis?	May 24 01:19
chips_b_malroy	ubuntu should just use debian repo's and contribute back to it.	May 24 01:19
_Hicham_	Mandriva is more simplified	May 24 01:19
ushimitsudoki	twitter: it is others that are arguing that simplified distros are the problem.	May 24 01:19
_Hicham_	OpenSuSe is more simplified	May 24 01:19
DaemonFC	twitter, don't you have n appointment with your 15 other personalities on Slashdot?	May 24 01:19
ushimitsudoki	twitter: Mephis is a fine choice as is Mandrive or Ubuntu	May 24 01:19
ushimitsudoki	mandriva	May 24 01:19
DaemonFC	you seem to be able to engage yourself in a thrilling conversation	May 24 01:19
twitter	no, all the trolls are here, FC	May 24 01:19
twitter	Ubuntu is AOK but I don't like Gnome.	May 24 01:20
twitter	I have not tried Mandrive	May 24 01:20
DaemonFC	I like GNOME, just not what they've done to it	May 24 01:20
ushimitsudoki	twitter: that is exactly my point. Give a newbie a simple distro and let them learn and then change what they like.	May 24 01:20
_Hicham_	hahahahahaha	May 24 01:20
DaemonFC	I like Linux, jsut not what they've done to it	May 24 01:20
_Hicham_	nice trolling session	May 24 01:20
ushimitsudoki	Ubuntu serves that role very well. it's not perfect and could do a lot of things better, but it's a pretty damn good starting point for newcomers	May 24 01:21
DaemonFC	their packaging policies are a joke, their people are idiots, and their apathetic and condescending bureaucracy jsut drives me up the wall	May 24 01:21
twitter	Sure. The basics of free software transfer to all distros	May 24 01:21
chips_b_malroy	you will be back DaemonFC. vista will hose your computer	May 24 01:21
twitter	the differences are silly things like package management and UI choices	May 24 01:21
twitter	It's all free software and you can make any distro do just about anything you want	May 24 01:21
ushimitsudoki	My further point is that because of the popularity of Ubuntu, people that are interested in FLOSS activism should get involved there, so that newcomers hear that side of the message.	May 24 01:21
DaemonFC	I won't ever be back on Ubuntu	May 24 01:21
DaemonFC	that's for damned sure	May 24 01:22
ushimitsudoki	You can bet your ass that the mono/moonlighters are all up in Ubuntu trying to get their message out. People that care about Freedom should be doing the same thing	May 24 01:22
DaemonFC	there's plenty of distros that don't mangle their packages	May 24 01:22
twitter	DeamonFC, you seem happy with windows. I don't know why you are here.	May 24 01:22
DaemonFC	with developers that generally know what they're doing	May 24 01:22
chips_b_malroy	Daemon did you read how to setup the wireless on mepis 8?	May 24 01:22
ushimitsudoki	Preachers go where the sinners are, if you see my meaning	May 24 01:22
DaemonFC	twitter has 16 preachers in one thick skull	May 24 01:23
oiaohm	There are a lot of upstream packages that hate Ubuntu.	May 24 01:23
DaemonFC	from what I've seen on Slashdot	May 24 01:23
oiaohm	Its simpler to talk to any other distribution	May 24 01:23
twitter	Probably from what you have written, FC.	May 24 01:23
oiaohm	and get suitalble handling.	May 24 01:23
_Hicham_	ushimitsudoki doesn't get my point oiaohm	May 24 01:23
_Hicham_	we have talked before about that	May 24 01:23
DaemonFC	http://slashdot.org/~SockDisclosure/journal/214377	May 24 01:23
oiaohm	Ubuntu has filled a void.	May 24 01:23
twitter	nice	May 24 01:23
ushimitsudoki	Canonical used to be a lot worse about upstream, but they took a lot of public harsh criticism and have worked to address it. Have they done enough? That's up for debate.	May 24 01:23
DaemonFC	Twitter's list of sock puppets	May 24 01:24
DaemonFC	http://slashdot.org/~SockDisclosure/journal/214377	May 24 01:24
DaemonFC	right here	May 24 01:24
twitter	lol	May 24 01:24
oiaohm	Redhat not intested in marketing like they were.	May 24 01:24
twitter	I think I'll add you to the troll zoo.	May 24 01:24
macabe	Stop it with the /. shit	May 24 01:24
ushimitsudoki	_Hicham_: Explain your point again. I think I get it just fine, but I am willing to listen again if you think I missed it.	May 24 01:24
_Hicham_	as I said all major upstream projects are now offering debs just because of Ubuntu	May 24 01:24
DaemonFC	oiaohm: Fedora is getting a lot more love lately	May 24 01:24
twitter	very cool for ubuntu	May 24 01:24
twitter	and debian users	May 24 01:24
DaemonFC	Ubuntu needs to go crawl in a hole and die	May 24 01:25
oiaohm	_Hicham_: that is mostly because upstream project cannot trust Ubuntu debs.	May 24 01:25
DaemonFC	most pointless software fork ever	May 24 01:25
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_Hicham_	Fedora is struggling to fix bugs	May 24 01:25
oiaohm	Not to berry them 1000 feet under in bug reports	May 24 01:25
twitter	I think people are using debs because apt works well	May 24 01:25
_Hicham_	they delayed FC11 by one week	May 24 01:25
oiaohm	For alterations incompetent Ubuntu maintainers did.	May 24 01:25
DaemonFC	RPM is really getting a lot better	May 24 01:25
_Hicham_	just to fix some remaining 24 bugs	May 24 01:25
twitter	basically, freedom worked.	May 24 01:25
twitter	Red Hat, 10 years ago, had more limited distribution.	May 24 01:25
oiaohm	Worst for wine was 2000 bug in bugzilla due to ubuntu everyone basically invalid.	May 24 01:26
twitter	debian was all free, so everyone could host repositories	May 24 01:26
_Hicham_	RedHat got the point long time ago	May 24 01:26
twitter	Fedora mimicked that success	May 24 01:26
_Hicham_	and they are doing things right	May 24 01:26
DaemonFC	Ubuntu users just game the hits per day on distrowatch cause they have nothing to do except watch Hentai and sockpuppet slashdot	May 24 01:26
twitter	yes	May 24 01:26
DaemonFC	:)	May 24 01:26
oiaohm	Ubuntu need to grow up.	May 24 01:26
MinceR	for some reason i cannot fathom, programs randomly decide all the i/o bandwidth of the system belongs to them	May 24 01:26
oiaohm	the problem is I don't know how to make them do it.	May 24 01:26
twitter	Red Hat has been doing things right.	May 24 01:27
DaemonFC	MinceR: You can force them not to	May 24 01:27
DaemonFC	it's in the kernel configuration ;)	May 24 01:27
_Hicham_	Ubuntu devs are a bunch of people who didn't get along with Debian	May 24 01:27
twitter	I need to configure my IM to ignore user DaemonFC	May 24 01:27
twitter	off to Google to learn how	May 24 01:27
_Hicham_	so they took Debian Policy and fucked with it	May 24 01:27
DaemonFC	Well, Ubuntu exists because Debian team has good taste	May 24 01:27
DaemonFC	is my opinion	May 24 01:27
ushimitsudoki	Wow. Just trolling on Ubuntu now. Oh well.	May 24 01:27
oiaohm	Ubuntu Policy still contains too much Debian.	May 24 01:27
DaemonFC	let Ubuntu deal with all the I Broke The Screen idiots	May 24 01:28
MinceR	i thought it existed because the debian project went to sleep for a while	May 24 01:28
neonfloss	Ubuntu is good - its easier to start off with and if you all support open source being spread you should support open source distrobutions easier for average user	May 24 01:28
oiaohm	Don't upgrade packages even they are binary compadible just back port patches is from Debian.	May 24 01:28
_Hicham_	Debian projects is lacking resources	May 24 01:28
DaemonFC	Debian didn't go to sleep, nothing stops you from using Testing	May 24 01:28
oiaohm	That Don't upgrade is a bad policy.	May 24 01:28
_Hicham_	like when that dumb dev made the openssl bug	May 24 01:28
oiaohm	Look at numbers of distributions that copied it.	May 24 01:29
twitter	ah yes, here it is http://www.livinginternet.com/r/ra_ignore.htm	May 24 01:29
oiaohm	It was a overall QC failure _Hicham_	May 24 01:29
DaemonFC	If Ubuntu does starve off Debian, then they better damned well know how to develop a distro on their own	May 24 01:29
_Hicham_	oiaohm : who is responsible for the high encryption of 15 bits then?	May 24 01:29
DaemonFC	(they don't)	May 24 01:29
ushimitsudoki	Anyway, I'm off to play a tower defense game. Disappointed in the level of discourse today. :(	May 24 01:30
twitter	bye	May 24 01:30
twitter	sorry people are stinking the place up	May 24 01:30
_Hicham_	ushimitsudoki : never be afraid of the truth	May 24 01:30
oiaohm	_Hicham_: Debian coped the flack but maintains of other distributions who just copied should also cop flack.	May 24 01:30
DaemonFC	that's OK, you outnumber me 16-1	May 24 01:30
DaemonFC	remember :P	May 24 01:30
_Hicham_	we all want linux to progress	May 24 01:30
oiaohm	Remeber Linus saying many eyes make bugs shallow.	May 24 01:31
_Hicham_	oiaohm : it lasted for three years	May 24 01:31
oiaohm	People were not checking each others work.	May 24 01:31
MinceR	024138 < DaemonFC> Debian didn't go to sleep, nothing stops you from using Testing	May 24 01:31
oiaohm	So QC failed	May 24 01:31
MinceR	except my desire to have a stable, reliable system?	May 24 01:31
_Hicham_	oiaohm : do u know what was the problem?	May 24 01:31
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DaemonFC	Testing is not unstable	May 24 01:31
DaemonFC	Unstable is unstable	May 24 01:31
DaemonFC	:)	May 24 01:31
oiaohm	Yep disabled randomisation _Hicham_	May 24 01:31
oiaohm	It did gain speed.	May 24 01:31
MinceR	DaemonFC: yes, i'm sure "stable" is just an illusion and "testing" really means "stable	May 24 01:32
_Hicham_	no, he modified the code to suppress some compiler warnings	May 24 01:32
DaemonFC	Debian Testing is at the least, more reliable than Ubuntu	May 24 01:32
MinceR	"	May 24 01:32
DaemonFC	:)	May 24 01:32
DaemonFC	course Ubuntu sets a low benchmark	May 24 01:32
MinceR	if it's at the least more reliable then what it is at the most?	May 24 01:32
DaemonFC	you may get a minor bug sometimes	May 24 01:32
DaemonFC	happened to me once	May 24 01:32
DaemonFC	shrugs	May 24 01:33
twitter	my laptop's stability is not illusion under stable or testing	May 24 01:33
_Hicham_	remember when u told me that Fedora guys let a lot of compiler warnings unprocessed?	May 24 01:33
oiaohm	_Hicham_: the big one was random generater disabled.	May 24 01:33
DaemonFC	you should see the shitstorm of compiler warnings when you compile an Ubuntu kernel	May 24 01:33
_Hicham_	Debian is really rock stable	May 24 01:33
oiaohm	That is why keys were not generating correctly _Hicham_	May 24 01:33
twitter	and Debian does not "rot"	May 24 01:33
MinceR	gn	May 24 01:34
_Hicham_	they were generated at 15 bits level	May 24 01:34
DaemonFC	Ubuntu is day old garbage	May 24 01:34
_Hicham_	gn MinceR	May 24 01:34
twitter	I've got Woody systems on the shelf that will work as well today as they did when I turned them off five years ago.	May 24 01:34
oiaohm	_Hicham_ later openssl has detection of random number generate is disabled.	May 24 01:34
twitter	I've got Etch for this laptop sitting on a spare hard drive.	May 24 01:34
DaemonFC	oiaohm: I made fun of the OpenSSL bug when I wrote the Ubuntu article in Uncyclopedia	May 24 01:35
oiaohm	Once gcc flag basically could cripple openssl.	May 24 01:35
twitter	it too boots up without a problem and runs great, maybe better than Lenny.	May 24 01:35
DaemonFC	“Ubuntu, now with non-random OpenSSL keys”	May 24 01:35
DaemonFC	~ OpenSSL on Ubuntu	May 24 01:35
DaemonFC	“Ubuntu, now with random OpenSSL keys”	May 24 01:35
DaemonFC	~ OpenSSL-blacklist on Ubuntu	May 24 01:35
oiaohm	Problem is lot of distributions had appled that flag globally.	May 24 01:35
DaemonFC	:)	May 24 01:35
DaemonFC	This article is about the third world operating system. For the article about the third world philosophy, Go Screw Yourself. It ain't never comin' back!	May 24 01:36
DaemonFC	:D	May 24 01:36
MinceR	is that meant to be funny?	May 24 01:36
_Hicham_	QA failure as u said	May 24 01:36
oiaohm	Failure to upstream about the warnings in code to make sure correct was correct was another Debian failure _Hicham_	May 24 01:36
_Hicham_	that is another Debian pitfall	May 24 01:37
_Hicham_	low collaboration with upstream	May 24 01:37
oiaohm	Redhat took leason from it.	May 24 01:37
oiaohm	And rewrote there rules.	May 24 01:37
oiaohm	That its upstream at all costs.	May 24 01:37
_Hicham_	RedHat is professional	May 24 01:37
_Hicham_	they know how to manage things	May 24 01:37
oiaohm	Before the debian mess Redhat was not upstreaming everything.	May 24 01:37
oiaohm	So they learnt from the mess.	May 24 01:38
oiaohm	Debian was not alone here.	May 24 01:38
oiaohm	gentoo also learnt from it.	May 24 01:38
_Hicham_	RedHat basically is upstream	May 24 01:39
oiaohm	But there are a lot of distributions that have not learnt the leason that maintainers must have a good releation ship with upstream.	May 24 01:39
oiaohm	Failure to do so risks hell.	May 24 01:39
_Hicham_	its developer are the upstream ones	May 24 01:39
_Hicham_	like Ubuntu	May 24 01:39
_Hicham_	take Firefox	May 24 01:39
DaemonFC	yes, Red Hat is the authority on a lot of things	May 24 01:39
_Hicham_	add Debian patches	May 24 01:39
_Hicham_	add their own patches	May 24 01:40
DaemonFC	by virtue of being the largest single contributor	May 24 01:40
_Hicham_	and create a big mess	May 24 01:40
oiaohm	RedHat is authority based on quality of work.	May 24 01:40
DaemonFC	Red Hat and Novell essentially do all the work on ALSA	May 24 01:40
oiaohm	Novell you don't trust as much.	May 24 01:40
_Hicham_	Novell is a big contributor	May 24 01:40
DaemonFC	the kernel developer who fixed the issues Ubuntu has with my sound card (Which didn't land in Jaunty) is from Novell	May 24 01:41
DaemonFC	Ubuntu basically is not an authority on their own system	May 24 01:41
DaemonFC	because they do like 0.001% of the work on the parts of it	May 24 01:41
oiaohm	Going into main kernel it has to be audited any how.	May 24 01:41
_Hicham_	Novell employs Greg Kroah Hartman	May 24 01:41
tacone	ubuntu seems to backport a lot more to debian than to upstrems	May 24 01:41
oiaohm	Greg Kroah Martman is a good maintainer even before he worked for Novell.	May 24 01:42
DaemonFC	well, I'm not going to ignore a perfectly valid gripe just because of where it came from	May 24 01:42
twitter	ha ha, another W32 worm embarrassment http://it.slashdot.org/story/09/05/23/1733231/Malware-Found-On-Brand-New-Windows-Netbook?art_pos=3 This is why it's a good idea to not run Windows and to wipe any distro and install your favorite.	May 24 01:42
DaemonFC	hahahahaa	May 24 01:42
DaemonFC	GNUtard	May 24 01:42
DaemonFC	wasn't that your 17th sockpuppet?	May 24 01:42
twitter	you are my sockpuppet, FC	May 24 01:42
DaemonFC	please go auto erotically asphyxiate yourself	May 24 01:42
twitter	look at that hostility	May 24 01:43
oiaohm	Only some people ever make good software maintainers.	May 24 01:43
twitter	hugs FC	May 24 01:43
twitter	Windows users need those daily	May 24 01:43
oiaohm	Greg Kroah also has a standing invite to Redhat for good reasons.	May 24 01:43
DaemonFC	he should probably take them up on that	May 24 01:44
_Hicham_	when Novell will go bankrupt	May 24 01:44
DaemonFC	more money and off the sinking ship	May 24 01:44
DaemonFC	what's keeping him?	May 24 01:44
oiaohm	Depends if he wants Novell to float or not.	May 24 01:44
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DaemonFC	Red Hat is booming	May 24 01:44
_Hicham_	he is not interested in Novell	May 24 01:44
_Hicham_	but he hates Canonical	May 24 01:44
DaemonFC	and Novell is breaking even at its best right now	May 24 01:44
oiaohm	Remember Greg did not start as a novell employee.	May 24 01:44
oiaohm	It started with SUSE.	May 24 01:45
_Hicham_	and SuSe is bought by Novell	May 24 01:45
_Hicham_	that is why he stayed with it	May 24 01:45
_Hicham_	SuSe is a marvellous distro	May 24 01:45
_Hicham_	which is tainted by Novell	May 24 01:45
_Hicham_	and puppet Miguel de Icaza	May 24 01:45
DaemonFC	it's not getting any better you know?	May 24 01:46
oiaohm	It was Greg who got the opensuse project running.	May 24 01:46
DaemonFC	every release is buggier and slower	May 24 01:46
DaemonFC	http://uncyclopedia.wikia.com/wiki/Geocities	May 24 01:47
DaemonFC	lmao	May 24 01:47
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oiaohm	Mind you Greg Kroah also has guts. Who else would be game enough to risk there maintainer ship rep to ship incomplete drivers with the main Linux kernel.	May 24 01:47
_Hicham_	these are not incomplete drivers	May 24 01:48
_Hicham_	these are necessary drivers	May 24 01:48
oiaohm	Tanted means incomplete in testing.	May 24 01:48
_Hicham_	I must agree they are incomplete from a certain point of view	May 24 01:49
_Hicham_	but it was a necessary move	May 24 01:49
_Hicham_	and I appreciated it	May 24 01:49
oiaohm	He put his head on the line if it was not implemented correctly.	May 24 01:49
_Hicham_	now my webcam driver is finally merged into the kernel main tree	May 24 01:49
oiaohm	That I do respect. He will stand up for what he believes in and take the required risks.	May 24 01:49
_Hicham_	those drivers have got testing	May 24 01:49
_Hicham_	community testing	May 24 01:50
_Hicham_	what else do u want?	May 24 01:50
oiaohm	Some of those drivers have been rewriten completely.	May 24 01:50
_Hicham_	a lot of hardware have been reverse engineered to find its drivers	May 24 01:50
oiaohm	Makign the taint flag work its not been a major issue to debuging.	May 24 01:51
DaemonFC	http://uncyclopedia.wikia.com/wiki/Worst_100_Firefox_extensions	May 24 01:51
_Hicham_	Linux should support the widest range of hardware	May 24 01:51
oiaohm	Now if it had not worked as expected he would have been up the creek with every other maintainer out to kill him.	May 24 01:51
oiaohm	That is why I say it took guts.	May 24 01:51
twitter	is there anything that supports more hardware than Linux?	May 24 01:52
DaemonFC	Windows	May 24 01:52
oiaohm	Windows and Linux are about equal.	May 24 01:52
twitter	Which version, FC?	May 24 01:52
oiaohm	on x86	May 24 01:52
oiaohm	On other process windows losess.	May 24 01:52
DaemonFC	x64 has the same hardware support on most things bought since 2005	May 24 01:53
twitter	Stuff that worked under 98 probably don't under XP and surely don't under Vista	May 24 01:53
DaemonFC	who cares?	May 24 01:53
oiaohm	Linux has good x86 on hardware pre that.	May 24 01:53
DaemonFC	why would you have a PC that old?	May 24 01:53
DaemonFC	I want my new stuff to work	May 24 01:53
twitter	someone who owns an old printer, camera or other piece of hardware	May 24 01:53
DaemonFC	not something I bought 11 years ago	May 24 01:53
oiaohm	My current machine is 6 years old.	May 24 01:53
twitter	my laptop is 7	May 24 01:53
oiaohm	harddrive been replaced.	May 24 01:53
oiaohm	and ram.	May 24 01:53
chips_b_malroy	example back up tape drive	May 24 01:54
oiaohm	But other than that its good.	May 24 01:54
oiaohm	Not everyone updates there machines like bats out of hell DaemonFC.	May 24 01:54
DaemonFC	yeah well for people with hardware made in the last two years, you may have compatibility issues with Linux	May 24 01:54
DaemonFC	if there's even ever a driver	May 24 01:54
DaemonFC	most often the drivers are reverse engineered and may not work fully	May 24 01:55
twitter	yes, that's a problem with M$ and hardware maker collusion.	May 24 01:55
oiaohm	Linux and windows are both at different ends.	May 24 01:55
oiaohm	Older stuff Linux wins.	May 24 01:55
twitter	but really, 2 year old hardware should work fine	May 24 01:55
DaemonFC	nope	May 24 01:55
Balrog_	latest hardware usually works fine	May 24 01:55
oiaohm	Lot of 2 year old hardware does work.	May 24 01:55
DaemonFC	lots of stuff that doesn't work unless you have Windows	May 24 01:56
twitter	It's really new stuff or crap like broadcom that makes problems	May 24 01:56
DaemonFC	both hardware and software	May 24 01:56
twitter	developers have a tendency to make good hardware work	May 24 01:56
_Hicham_	Intel hardware works	May 24 01:56
_Hicham_	HP hardware works	May 24 01:56
twitter	stuff with firmware gets passed on to people who don't mind	May 24 01:56
oiaohm	Funny enough lot of cases quality of the device also lines up to driver support for Linux.	May 24 01:56
_Hicham_	IBM hardware works	May 24 01:56
twitter	generally	May 24 01:57
chips_b_malroy	how many printers and tvcards did vista orphan, and will work in linux	May 24 01:57
twitter	and it's generally good	May 24 01:57
oiaohm	lexmark printers are the only ones I know that can break them selves just because windows crashed.	May 24 01:57
DaemonFC	none	May 24 01:57
Balrog_	oiaohm: you mean in hardware?	May 24 01:57
DaemonFC	Vista works with XP era TV cards	May 24 01:57
twitter	really?	May 24 01:57
DaemonFC	and you can use Vista TV card drivers in XP	May 24 01:57
_Hicham_	Vista doesn't work with itself	May 24 01:58
DaemonFC	I've done both	May 24 01:58
twitter	From what I've read, M$ dumped the XP driver model at the last minute when they rolled Vista out.	May 24 01:58
DaemonFC	no	May 24 01:58
oiaohm	Yep lexmark printers can hammer side of case until moter burns out.	May 24 01:58
DaemonFC	XP drivers work for most things	May 24 01:58
twitter	It broke lots of hardware and Vista never really recovered from the shock.	May 24 01:58
DaemonFC	even video drivers, but then you can't use DirectX 10	May 24 01:58
twitter	would you like me to point you to court documents and M$ email?	May 24 01:58
DaemonFC	you can use chipset drivers from XP	May 24 01:58
DaemonFC	and sound drivers	May 24 01:58
DaemonFC	and most network drivers	May 24 01:58
_Hicham_	hahahaha	May 24 01:59
DaemonFC	but they'll use NDIS 5.1	May 24 01:59
DaemonFC	not 6	May 24 01:59
_Hicham_	not true DaemonFC	May 24 01:59
chips_b_malroy	maybe if there are high def	May 24 01:59
_Hicham_	and you know it	May 24 01:59
DaemonFC	I've used XP wifi drivers on Vista	May 24 01:59
DaemonFC	they work	May 24 01:59
oiaohm	Hmm	May 24 01:59
oiaohm	Don't do that on a Laptop DaemonFC	May 24 01:59
chips_b_malroy	mostly they do not work	May 24 01:59
DaemonFC	I have used all XP drivers on a Vista set up before	May 24 01:59
DaemonFC	and it all worked	May 24 02:00
DaemonFC	Compaq never made Vista drivers for my laptop	May 24 02:00
DaemonFC	so I just used all the XP drivers	May 24 02:00
oiaohm	It does depend on your hardware if that works.	May 24 02:00
chips_b_malroy	average user does not have those skills	May 24 02:00
DaemonFC	worked on everything I've ever done it with	May 24 02:00
oiaohm	I know of one HP with webcam.	May 24 02:01
DaemonFC	double click on the installer?	May 24 02:01
oiaohm	It don't work.	May 24 02:01
DaemonFC	yeah it will\	May 24 02:01
oiaohm	Install XP drive	May 24 02:01
DaemonFC	run it in XP Compatibility Mode	May 24 02:01
DaemonFC	will fool the installer	May 24 02:01
oiaohm	get blue screen of death.	May 24 02:01
DaemonFC	hmmmm	May 24 02:01
oiaohm	Followed by red	May 24 02:01
DaemonFC	I used Creative's XP drivers for an old webcam Vista said it didn't support	May 24 02:01
DaemonFC	worked fine	May 24 02:01
oiaohm	Complete system death.	May 24 02:01
oiaohm	Some work.	May 24 02:02
oiaohm	Some don't.	May 24 02:02
twitter	well, if things work FC it's against M$'s best efforts http://slashdot.org/~twitter/journal/197498	May 24 02:02
DaemonFC	must be rare that they don't	May 24 02:02
chips_b_malroy	I might believe you more if you said a few or some, but not all	May 24 02:02
oiaohm	Note it was a PCI connected webcam.	May 24 02:02
DaemonFC	everything I've tried	May 24 02:02
oiaohm	Build into laptop.	May 24 02:02
DaemonFC	mine was USB	May 24 02:02
oiaohm	USB find.	May 24 02:02
oiaohm	PCI one pray.	May 24 02:02
DaemonFC	lots of times they jsut lie to sell you a new one	May 24 02:03
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DaemonFC	even though the XP driver works	May 24 02:03
oiaohm	PCI ones are rare.	May 24 02:03
twitter	quit ling FC	May 24 02:03
oiaohm	Nomrally only found in laptops.	May 24 02:03
DaemonFC	people that complain about drivers, there's like a 90% chance that they don't know what they're doing	May 24 02:04
DaemonFC	and couldn't find their ass with both hands looking	May 24 02:04
oiaohm	One scsi controller I had needs driver does nto work with Vista either.	May 24 02:04
oiaohm	Yes you can install driver but system will die.	May 24 02:04
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oiaohm	Works fine with XP and 2003	May 24 02:04
twitter	Steven Sinofsky, chief of Windows development, [other changes in Vista blocked Windows XP drivers altogether] "This is across the board for printers, scanners, WAN, accessories and so on. Many of the associated applets don't run within the constraints of the security model or the new video/audio driver models."	May 24 02:05
twitter	I've got his opinion, FC and I've got yours. hmmmm.	May 24 02:05
DaemonFC	well, I know what I've installed and it runs	May 24 02:06
oiaohm	Anything that is generic enough in driver construction works accross both.	May 24 02:06
oiaohm	Anything that uses the bits MS changed results are evil.	May 24 02:06
DaemonFC	now 64-bit Vista has other policies, but really didn't have a predecessor	May 24 02:06
DaemonFC	most XP X64 drivers will work though	May 24 02:06
twitter	M$ may have tried to fix a few of these issues, but mostly they pay people to lie about them.	May 24 02:06
DaemonFC	yeah, put your tin foil hat on	May 24 02:06
oiaohm	DaemonFC: you are lucky with Windows and Unlucky with Linux for some reason.	May 24 02:07
twitter	I'd rather research the opinions of people inside M$ to know what's going on.	May 24 02:07
twitter	tin foil is for people who'd rather not listen or research	May 24 02:07
DaemonFC	most things work fine for me in Linux and require little or no extra setup	May 24 02:07
DaemonFC	but that TV card will never be supported	May 24 02:07
twitter	this may be true.	May 24 02:07
DaemonFC	and I'm not going to leave a $150 device functionless	May 24 02:07
oiaohm	Did it force you to reinstall the complete OS.	May 24 02:08
twitter	they cost more like $20	May 24 02:08
DaemonFC	not the decent ones	May 24 02:08
DaemonFC	the analog ones maybe	May 24 02:08
oiaohm	That PCI embed webcam did.	May 24 02:08
twitter	there's little difference in the chipsets, FC	May 24 02:08
oiaohm	It managed to screw up disk interfacing somehow.	May 24 02:08
DaemonFC	they have a fire sale going on analog ones	May 24 02:08
DaemonFC	those are worthless	May 24 02:08
twitter	and you are better off with analog than DRM encumbered	May 24 02:09
DaemonFC	I have an HD signal, and Aver has the best cards	May 24 02:09
DaemonFC	not just for the hardware, but their media center	May 24 02:09
DaemonFC	no DRM	May 24 02:09
DaemonFC	I can record the signal in HD	May 24 02:09
oiaohm	There will be no free to air analog signal here soon.	May 24 02:09
DaemonFC	in MPEG-4, MPEG-2, WMV, a number of others	May 24 02:09
twitter	Get an HD to analog converter. All HD cards have DRM baked in, and Vista does too of course	May 24 02:09
DaemonFC	mine doesn't	May 24 02:09
chips_b_malroy	you need a converter box for the old analog tv card. and I have two tv cards that work in linux	May 24 02:10
twitter	Of course Vista does	May 24 02:10
twitter	and the hardware does to.	May 24 02:10
DaemonFC	it can even record straight to a DVD format	May 24 02:10
oiaohm	Lot of HD cards don't have it in the hardware.	May 24 02:10
DaemonFC	complete with menus	May 24 02:10
oiaohm	It in the software.	May 24 02:10
DaemonFC	no, there's no DRM	May 24 02:10
DaemonFC	there is in Windows Media Center	May 24 02:10
DaemonFC	but it's not in the driver or the OS	May 24 02:10
oiaohm	Use the right software you can bypass it.	May 24 02:10
DaemonFC	I don't use Windows Media Center	May 24 02:11
twitter	Older HD cards don't but almost all listen to the "broadcast flag" at the hardware level	May 24 02:11
DaemonFC	I don't even have it installed	May 24 02:11
DaemonFC	(Vista Business)	May 24 02:11
DaemonFC	AverMedia Center has no DRM	May 24 02:11
oiaohm	Broadcast flag was found to upset users.	May 24 02:11
DaemonFC	Aver doesn't acknowledge those flags	May 24 02:11
oiaohm	It was only in hardware for about 1 year.	May 24 02:11
twitter	they will pull it out more and more	May 24 02:11
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chips_b_malroy	macrovision is still DRM and its on xp as well	May 24 02:12
DaemonFC	there's nothing stopping me from doing anything I want	May 24 02:12
twitter	Yesterday it was American Gladiators, tomorow who knows.	May 24 02:12
oiaohm	Mostly because due to interfernece it could turn on when it should not.	May 24 02:12
DaemonFC	and when there is, well I won't use it anymore	May 24 02:12
oiaohm	Like not being able to record ads out a program due to it.	May 24 02:12
DaemonFC	personally, I've not been able to trip Windows DRM	May 24 02:12
oiaohm	Kinda did not go done well with advertises.	May 24 02:12
DaemonFC	even when I tried to provoke it	May 24 02:12
twitter	it is not under your control, you can not provoke	May 24 02:12
oiaohm	Advertisers are one of the few people who don't care.	May 24 02:12
oiaohm	about copiing.	May 24 02:13
DaemonFC	no, I've done things that should have triggered it	May 24 02:13
oiaohm	To be correct they want it.	May 24 02:13
DaemonFC	but they don't	May 24 02:13
DaemonFC	so I think the issue is overblown	May 24 02:13
twitter	it's intent that matters, FC	May 24 02:13
oiaohm	Its like the idea that dvd decription had to be drive side.	May 24 02:13
oiaohm	Most hardware companyes said screw that.	May 24 02:14
chips_b_malroy	Daemon, if you are using all unsigned uncertified xp drivers for you video and audio, forget hdmi output	May 24 02:14
chips_b_malroy	ie blueray	May 24 02:14
oiaohm	There are ways to make blueray play even without hdmi.	May 24 02:15
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DaemonFC	Blu Ray doesn't trigger it	May 24 02:15
DaemonFC	I'm using DVI	May 24 02:15
twitter	HD movies are beautiful but not worth the freedom they remove	May 24 02:15
DaemonFC	so it should but it doesn't	May 24 02:15
chips_b_malroy	yes, but the resolution will be less	May 24 02:15
DaemonFC	no	May 24 02:15
DaemonFC	resolution is full	May 24 02:15
DaemonFC	none of the discs use the token	May 24 02:15
_boo_	wtf even buys blu rays?	May 24 02:16
oiaohm	Most blue ray makers learnt lession from PS3.	May 24 02:16
Balrog_	someone I know rents blu rays and copies them	May 24 02:16
Balrog_	yeah, illega	May 24 02:16
Balrog_	illegal *	May 24 02:16
DaemonFC	I have a BD-RW drive	May 24 02:16
chips_b_malroy	do you have an hdmi output on that laptop even?	May 24 02:16
oiaohm	remember how PS3 connect by hdmi would sometimes flicker like hell.	May 24 02:16
oiaohm	Cause encryption colaspe.	May 24 02:16
Balrog_	chips_b_malroy: DVI is HDMI without sound	May 24 02:16
DaemonFC	on the laptop? hell no that thing is old	May 24 02:17
chips_b_malroy	since u r using all xp drivers, I say no	May 24 02:17
twitter	I rip my movies to 720 x 480 theora anyway	May 24 02:17
Balrog_	DVI to HDMI cables are cheap	May 24 02:17
twitter	don't need HD	May 24 02:17
DaemonFC	I'm using Vista drivers on this	May 24 02:17
Balrog_	twitter: hope you're using thusnelda	May 24 02:17
chips_b_malroy	the hdmi will be disabled	May 24 02:17
oiaohm	So the hdmi protected path will risk upset customers.	May 24 02:17
oiaohm	Nop chips_b_malroy	May 24 02:17
twitter	I'm not sure what Lenny's ffmpeg2theora uses	May 24 02:17
oiaohm	There is a way to force Vista to open it.	May 24 02:17
chips_b_malroy	but since u do not have one, u cannot tell	May 24 02:17
twitter	works for me	May 24 02:17
Balrog_	twitter: ffmpeg2theora uses whatever libtheora is installed	May 24 02:17
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twitter	what's the difference Balrog?	May 24 02:18
DaemonFC	I also have an HD-DVD ROM drive	May 24 02:18
DaemonFC	:P	May 24 02:18
oiaohm	Protected path is more of a joke.	May 24 02:18
Balrog_	thusnelda provides around double the quality of stable libtheora	May 24 02:18
chips_b_malroy	yes, it can be opened buy not at blueray max resolution	May 24 02:18
Balrog_	AnyDVD HD (not foss) strips most BD drm	May 24 02:18
twitter	thanks for the tip	May 24 02:18
DaemonFC	yes I know :)	May 24 02:18
chips_b_malroy	anydvd rips	May 24 02:18
Balrog_	get it from svn and install it	May 24 02:18
oiaohm	Remember Vista business can use HDMI without protected path chips_b_malroy	May 24 02:18
Balrog_	keep it up to date :)	May 24 02:18
chips_b_malroy	and unprotectes as clone2dvd works	May 24 02:18
DaemonFC	there is no DRM that can't be cracked	May 24 02:19
DaemonFC	it's all bullshit	May 24 02:19
DaemonFC	the sky has been falling since 1996	May 24 02:19
DaemonFC	it's taking its sweet time	May 24 02:19
_boo_	if theora is divx class then x264 is definitely better	May 24 02:19
oiaohm	So unless you don't want business machiens to play your videos. You will not enable the heavy drm.	May 24 02:19
chips_b_malroy	anydvd is not really a high quality playback device	May 24 02:19
twitter	ffmpeg2theora at -v 6 is about as good as I need for archives but I'll use thusnelda if it's free and does better for the space used	May 24 02:20
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Balrog_	it's just a better algorithm	May 24 02:20
_boo_	why not x264?	May 24 02:20
Balrog_	old VLC won't play it though	May 24 02:20
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Balrog_	(because it didn't meet the spec)	May 24 02:21
twitter	what spec?	May 24 02:21
chips_b_malroy	I would like to see anydvdhd and clone2dvd to be ported to linux or run in wine	May 24 02:21
Balrog_	<https://trac.xiph.org/browser/branches/theora-thusnelda>	May 24 02:21
Balrog_	the theora spec	May 24 02:22
Balrog_	it only partially met the full spec	May 24 02:22
chips_b_malroy	DVDFAB5 works very well in wine, on the setup page u have to use the arrow keys a lot	May 24 02:24
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oiaohm	Thre exists blueray decodes on Linux.	May 24 02:26
oiaohm	Just they don't intergrate into media players.	May 24 02:26
chips_b_malroy	nerolinux can burn dvds in linux	May 24 02:26
oiaohm	k3b with right support parts burns blueray	May 24 02:27
chips_b_malroy	oiaohm I have not seen them	May 24 02:27
twitter	Oh yeah, FC, I only use sock puppets on Slashdot because moderation abuse limited me to one comment a day. twitter sockpuppets on your blog are all impostors as many from "twitter" may be.	May 24 02:27
oiaohm	there around chips_b_malroy does not take much searching to find them chips_b_malroy.	May 24 02:27
DaemonFC	in other words	May 24 02:35
DaemonFC	enough people found you to be a whiney bitch gaming the system and responding to your own posts	May 24 02:35
DaemonFC	that they modded you down to where you could barely post	May 24 02:36
DaemonFC	that takes a lot	May 24 02:36
twitter	There's that skull of your, FC.	May 24 02:36
twitter	I started using sockpuppets after the turfers shut me down	May 24 02:37
twitter	not before	May 24 02:37
DaemonFC	no it really does take a lot of users to mod you that way	May 24 02:37
oiaohm	doom.org forum DaemonFC a place kinda decated to breaking DRM.	May 24 02:37
DaemonFC	so maybe it's not everyone else	May 24 02:37
DaemonFC	and you're the innocent victim	May 24 02:37
DaemonFC	:P	May 24 02:37
twitter	it takes people interested in gaming the system	May 24 02:37
twitter	you know, these SEO and "reputation defender" types M$ hires	May 24 02:38
_boo_	http://www.phoronix.com/scan.php?page=article&item=amd_shanghai_opensolaris&num=1	May 24 02:38
twitter	Slashdot itself is the victim.	May 24 02:38
_boo_	benchmarks of opensolaris vs ubuntu	May 24 02:38
twitter	that should be interesting	May 24 02:38
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DaemonFC	Phoronix is heavily biased to Ubuntu	May 24 02:39
DaemonFC	and can't even interpret Bonnie++	May 24 02:39
twitter	people at Slashdot have a high enough opinion of me http://slashdot.org/~twitter/journal/217907	May 24 02:40
twitter	and M$ hates me for sure	May 24 02:41
DaemonFC	no, they don't care	May 24 02:41
DaemonFC	sure, you cooked them up too	May 24 02:42
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twitter	So they smear.	May 24 02:45
twitter	Would you know anything about that kind of work, FC?	May 24 02:46
twitter	Sitting in on GNU/Linux discussion boards to promote Windows and say nasty things about GNU/Linux?	May 24 02:46
twitter	harassing the people there ...	May 24 02:46
twitter	interesting benchmarks, boo, looks like OpenSolaris was beat	May 24 02:48
twitter	it seems to work well enough	May 24 02:48
twitter	basically stable	May 24 02:48
twitter	Open Solaris and Ubuntu probably target different audiences. I know the place I work wants very conservative software for the task they use OpenSolaris for	May 24 02:50
twitter	I would rather have Debian stable, but it's not my job to pick and chose.	May 24 02:51
DaemonFC	their benchmarks are meaningless	May 24 02:53
DaemonFC	they only throw certain workloads that Solaris is obviously not optimized for	May 24 02:54
DaemonFC	and ignore database benchmarks	May 24 02:54
DaemonFC	and security	May 24 02:54
DaemonFC	neither of which Ubuntu could do well	May 24 02:54
twitter	so both OpenSolaris and Ubuntu are the pits, FC?	May 24 02:59
DaemonFC	OpenSolaris is not a desktop OS	May 24 03:00
DaemonFC	and Ubuntu is not something you'd want to use for any serious task	May 24 03:00
twitter	Why M$ is going into debt. They pursue their crazy stock buy back program, " Microsoft plans to use the proceeds to fund its $40 billion stock repurchase program and the company said it does not need capital for its business operations."	May 24 03:00
twitter	http://www.123jump.com/market-update/Financials-Pullback;-Microsoft-Debt-Offering/32811/	May 24 03:00
DaemonFC	oddly enough, OpenSolaris works pretty well on my machine	May 24 03:01
oiaohm	twitter: I know your point on closed source. I want to raise something. What is worse open source bounties where X ammount of money must be give before coder starts coding solution. Or a tempory closed source part that will be released once the money required it met.	May 24 03:01
DaemonFC	I wouldn't use it as a primary OS though	May 24 03:01
twitter	It's funny that they can't keep the price over $20, but then again Bill sold his for less.	May 24 03:01
DaemonFC	you have to rig it to get Linux stuff to run	May 24 03:01
twitter	there's nothing wrong with offering money to get things done, Ohm.	May 24 03:02
twitter	it does not keep anyone from doing things before or after	May 24 03:02
twitter	I prefer that companies and people pay people to get stuff done that they can't do themselves and that the results be free software right away.	May 24 03:03
twitter	It costs nothing to share	May 24 03:03
oiaohm	Closed source fits in when that cannot happen.	May 24 03:03
twitter	when would that ever be?	May 24 03:03
twitter	If I want something done, the tools are available.	May 24 03:03
oiaohm	Normally custom part need quicky buy a companies without the funds to aford doing it. Developers bet that other companies will want it and will pay the development short fall.	May 24 03:05
twitter	?	May 24 03:05
oiaohm	Open source bounties work pay in advance.	May 24 03:05
oiaohm	Closed source that will release to open source when money is paid is the other way.	May 24 03:06
oiaohm	Coder does the work and recovers costs latter.	May 24 03:06
oiaohm	Both have there place so coders eat.	May 24 03:07
twitter	The work usually pays for itself, that's why most of it gets done.	May 24 03:07
twitter	that's how 90% of the world's coders earn a living	May 24 03:07
oiaohm	Smaller firms that cannot afford coders.	May 24 03:07
oiaohm	In there own right.	May 24 03:07
twitter	they customize software to make it work for particular purposes.	May 24 03:07
twitter	Everyone can afford free software	May 24 03:08
oiaohm	The bounty system and closed source for a time work with.	May 24 03:08
twitter	freedom will always work and there will always be ways to get things done. non free software will always impose restrictions that keep you from getting things done.	May 24 03:08
DaemonFC	like?	May 24 03:12
twitter	like not having source code for easy modification	May 24 03:14
twitter	like not being able to use ODF	May 24 03:14
twitter	like avoiding sabotage of competing programs	May 24 03:14
twitter	the list of abuse from non free software companies is long	May 24 03:14
twitter	free software does not impose restrictions so you can do what you want with it and pay who you want to change it	May 24 03:15
twitter	does anyone know the recent history of M$FT buy backs?	May 24 03:16
twitter	It is sickening that they fire employees so that they can buy back their stock.	May 24 03:17
twitter	They reward some employees by punishing others that way.	May 24 03:17
twitter	What a rotten place to work.	May 24 03:18
twitter	M$ Death Watch updated, http://slashdot.org/~twitter/journal/213707	May 24 03:18
twitter	The impact on Seattle and Washington of those job losses in large. It would be sad to learn that it was completely avoidable. http://seattletimes.nwsource.com/html/soundeconomywithjontalton/2009176778_microsoft_layoffs_send_mixed_m.html	May 24 03:27
twitter	Of course, it would be better for M$ to just become a healthy free software company like IBM.	May 24 03:28
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twitter	I wonder how accurate this comment is, http://community.seattletimes.nwsource.com/reader_feedback/public/display.php?thread=119665&offset=0#post_411643	May 24 03:29
twitter	-> " they are still hiring contractors while laying-off regular employees. If they think this will generate faithful workers they are DEAD WRONG!!!!!"	May 24 03:29
DaemonFC	companies usually do that	May 24 03:30
twitter	The next one is funny. " The MS layoffs are just more bad news for the economy. What's the "mixed message" in that?"	May 24 03:30
DaemonFC	contractors don't get benefits	May 24 03:30
DaemonFC	or unemploymen	May 24 03:30
DaemonFC	*unemployment insurance	May 24 03:30
DaemonFC	much cheaper to hire	May 24 03:30
DaemonFC	it's not bad news	May 24 03:31
DaemonFC	it just makes sense for the bottom line	May 24 03:31
twitter	exploitation can only come from a position of power.	May 24 03:31
twitter	looks more like last minute looting of the company than anything else	May 24 03:31
DaemonFC	oh, and contractors can't join a union	May 24 03:31
DaemonFC	no, it makes sense	May 24 03:32
DaemonFC	they can keep a contractor for however long they like	May 24 03:32
twitter	sure it makes sense, if you are doing the looting	May 24 03:32
twitter	they hack costs to pay themselves	May 24 03:32
DaemonFC	there's no way they can lose	May 24 03:32
twitter	they even go into debt to do it	May 24 03:32
DaemonFC	by calling employees contractors	May 24 03:32
DaemonFC	I've seen lots of companies do that	May 24 03:33
twitter	they can lose if they end up with a bunch of employees without loyalty, but they won't care if all they are doing is looting	May 24 03:33
DaemonFC	employee loyalty is a myth	May 24 03:33
twitter	you have seen a lot of companies do it and you have seen a lot of companies fall over	May 24 03:33
DaemonFC	not the ones that do it	May 24 03:34
twitter	that's why we dip into a depression	May 24 03:34
DaemonFC	they usually make record profits every year	May 24 03:34
DaemonFC	wrong	May 24 03:34
twitter	Wamu	May 24 03:34
DaemonFC	the depression is just generated	May 24 03:34
DaemonFC	it's artificial	May 24 03:34
twitter	more than 35 banks have failed	May 24 03:34
DaemonFC	wrong	May 24 03:34
DaemonFC	they didn't fail	May 24 03:34
twitter	no?	May 24 03:34
DaemonFC	it's theater	May 24 03:34
twitter	they just could not pay people, that's all.	May 24 03:35
twitter	lol	May 24 03:35
DaemonFC	the big banks create these things so they can get us to finance their buying of little banks	May 24 03:35
DaemonFC	at rock bottom price	May 24 03:35
DaemonFC	fiat currency and the federal reserve	May 24 03:35
DaemonFC	money that isn't worth the paper it's printed on	May 24 03:35
DaemonFC	legal tender	May 24 03:35
twitter	that may be so, but the medium sized banks have really lost ass	May 24 03:35
DaemonFC	it's all bullshit	May 24 03:35
DaemonFC	it's a fabrication	May 24 03:36
DaemonFC	it's conjured up	May 24 03:36
DaemonFC	an apparition	May 24 03:36
DaemonFC	doesn't exist	May 24 03:36
DaemonFC	period	May 24 03:36
DaemonFC	figment of the central bank's imagination	May 24 03:36
DaemonFC	and if you had the slightest idea of what was going on for real	May 24 03:36
DaemonFC	you wouldn't sleep right	May 24 03:36
twitter	13% unemployment rates are not a fabrication. If anything, it is underreported.	May 24 03:36
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DaemonFC	well yeah	May 24 03:37
DaemonFC	that's not a problem	May 24 03:37
twitter	house foreclosures are not a fabrication.	May 24 03:37
DaemonFC	not a problem either	May 24 03:37
twitter	so it's not a problem that people are thrown out on the streets?	May 24 03:37
DaemonFC	you obviously don't understand that none of this is a problem	May 24 03:37
DaemonFC	none of it matters	May 24 03:37
DaemonFC	who cares?	May 24 03:37
DaemonFC	fuck them	May 24 03:37
DaemonFC	that's how bankers think	May 24 03:37
twitter	how do you think? do you at all?	May 24 03:38
DaemonFC	they bought you off with a phone that plays Eminem and doubles as a vibrator	May 24 03:38
twitter	what happens when it's your job and your house?	May 24 03:38
DaemonFC	so be glad	May 24 03:38
DaemonFC	you may be their pet	May 24 03:38
DaemonFC	then it's not important	May 24 03:38
DaemonFC	from their perspective	May 24 03:38
twitter	short sighted, FC	May 24 03:39
DaemonFC	you don't understand, it's not important until people start rioting	May 24 03:39
DaemonFC	then you declare martial law	May 24 03:39
DaemonFC	and shoot them	May 24 03:39
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twitter	shoot who?	May 24 03:39
twitter	you?	May 24 03:39
DaemonFC	but, enough people have to be fucked over so royally that they look up from their ipod and even know they should be angry	May 24 03:39
DaemonFC	that's the threshold where it matters	May 24 03:39
DaemonFC	anyone that resists	May 24 03:40
DaemonFC	will be shot	May 24 03:40
twitter	will you do the shooting, FC?	May 24 03:40
DaemonFC	nope	May 24 03:40
twitter	how will you avoid it?	May 24 03:40
DaemonFC	North American Union	May 24 03:40
DaemonFC	:)	May 24 03:40
DaemonFC	look into it	May 24 03:40
twitter	link?	May 24 03:41
DaemonFC	it's going to replace the USA	May 24 03:41
DaemonFC	Canada	May 24 03:41
DaemonFC	and Mexico	May 24 03:41
DaemonFC	it's already started	May 24 03:41
DaemonFC	it started years ago	May 24 03:41
DaemonFC	it's forerunner already exists	May 24 03:41
DaemonFC	created by George W. Bush	May 24 03:41
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DaemonFC	http://spp.gov/	May 24 03:42
DaemonFC	Security and Prosperity Partnership Of North America	May 24 03:42
DaemonFC	an unconstitutional treaty	May 24 03:42
twitter	so, are you ready to live like a Mexican?	May 24 03:42
DaemonFC	that was passed without being ratified by the senate	May 24 03:42
DaemonFC	not much I can do	May 24 03:42
oiaohm	If we killed everyone who did something wrong we would very quickly have the problem of having no one to burry the bodies.	May 24 03:42
DaemonFC	they have over 2 million soldiers	May 24 03:43
DaemonFC	with state of the art weaponry	May 24 03:43
DaemonFC	tanks	May 24 03:43
DaemonFC	helicopters	May 24 03:43
DaemonFC	what do I have?	May 24 03:43
DaemonFC	might as well accept it	May 24 03:43
twitter	freedom	May 24 03:43
twitter	slave	May 24 03:43
DaemonFC	there's nothing to do about it	May 24 03:43
oiaohm	A weapon is only as good as the person using it.	May 24 03:44
DaemonFC	unless you want to be killed	May 24 03:44
twitter	so, you are OK with political murder, purges and stuff like that?	May 24 03:44
DaemonFC	they'll be moving things into position, they won't call it the NAU til the last bits are in place	May 24 03:44
twitter	I really doubt the US will merge with Mexico.	May 24 03:45
DaemonFC	that's still at least a year or two out depending on how quickly they can move	May 24 03:45
DaemonFC	not totally	May 24 03:45
DaemonFC	it's going to operate like the EU	May 24 03:45
DaemonFC	it will have a court system that can strike down our laws	May 24 03:45
DaemonFC	a rotating presidency	May 24 03:45
DaemonFC	common currency	May 24 03:45
twitter	you really think the US will share a currency with Mexico?	May 24 03:46
twitter	nuts	May 24 03:46
DaemonFC	yes	May 24 03:46
DaemonFC	we will	May 24 03:46
DaemonFC	nobody governs in the US federal government	May 24 03:46
twitter	might as well if we sell our rights away to China	May 24 03:46
DaemonFC	without being appointed by the Federal Reserve	May 24 03:46
DaemonFC	Obama was selected by them before the election happened	May 24 03:46
DaemonFC	same with Bush	May 24 03:46
DaemonFC	if congress opposes the Fed, they are punished	May 24 03:47
DaemonFC	so they don't	May 24 03:47
oiaohm	Its not like the Mexico/USA border is solid.	May 24 03:47
DaemonFC	the Fed can control interest rates, if they even loan the government anything at all	May 24 03:47
DaemonFC	they can have politicians killed	May 24 03:48
DaemonFC	and they have	May 24 03:48
DaemonFC	the NAFTA Superhighway	May 24 03:48
DaemonFC	Trans-Texas Corridor	May 24 03:48
DaemonFC	already constructed	May 24 03:48
oiaohm	Merging currency might make sence.	May 24 03:48
DaemonFC	it's being slipped in piece by piece	May 24 03:48
DaemonFC	they never report on any of it	May 24 03:48
DaemonFC	it's kept out of the news	May 24 03:49
oiaohm	Merged laws to get back all the stolen cars that end up in mexico might be an advantage.	May 24 03:49
twitter	Mexican currency does not keep it's value. merging with it is insane	May 24 03:49
DaemonFC	every bit is designed to look like something else	May 24 03:49
DaemonFC	no	May 24 03:49
DaemonFC	they have the same kind of currency we do	May 24 03:49
DaemonFC	so does Canada	May 24 03:49
DaemonFC	so does the UK	May 24 03:49
DaemonFC	so do most countries	May 24 03:49
DaemonFC	fiat money	May 24 03:49
DaemonFC	worthless	May 24 03:49
DaemonFC	manipulated	May 24 03:49
DaemonFC	it's worth whatever the law says it is	May 24 03:50
oiaohm	I still think its funny mexico last goverment car check 90 percent of them were nicked from the USA>	May 24 03:50
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yuhong	What do you think of slashdot now?	May 24 03:50
oiaohm	From a crime point of view merging makes sence.	May 24 03:50
DaemonFC	so the last vestiges of the former United States are being stripped away	May 24 03:50
DaemonFC	and people don't care	May 24 03:50
DaemonFC	too apathetic	May 24 03:50
DaemonFC	the economy is going to be made to "crash"	May 24 03:51
DaemonFC	even worse than it has	May 24 03:51
twitter	What do you think yuhong?	May 24 03:51
DaemonFC	you haven't seen anything yet	May 24 03:51
yuhong	Right now, I don't think it is that bad.	May 24 03:51
DaemonFC	I'd say by next summer	May 24 03:52
DaemonFC	they're going to let it trickle down for a while then slam us with an overnight crash	May 24 03:52
twitter	comments still trolled, stories are hit and miss because submissions are trolled.	May 24 03:52
DaemonFC	that will make it more justified	May 24 03:52
DaemonFC	when our government ratifies and Obama signs the NAU agreement	May 24 03:52
twitter	I look at Slashdot when BN is DDoS'd	May 24 03:52
yuhong	What do you mean by trolled.	May 24 03:53
twitter	or when people like FC invite me to, :)	May 24 03:53
yuhong	What do you mean by trolled?	May 24 03:53
twitter	I mean the majority of comments there seem to be by astroturfers and others there to stink the place up.	May 24 03:53
DaemonFC	twitter is a sockpuppet there	May 24 03:53
DaemonFC	with dozens of identities	May 24 03:53
DaemonFC	backing him up	May 24 03:53
DaemonFC	cause if he doesn't back himself up	May 24 03:53
DaemonFC	who will? :)	May 24 03:53
yuhong	I often search it's archives.	May 24 03:54
oiaohm	MS is turning nuts.	May 24 03:55
oiaohm	Idea of setting a watt limit on a device.	May 24 03:55
twitter	M$ has set all sorts of limits	May 24 03:55
DaemonFC	I think Obama would have a disaster on his hands if he tried to make the case that we need to save Microsoft	May 24 03:56
twitter	they want to cripple a place they can't compete	May 24 03:56
DaemonFC	I mean some people LIKE GM	May 24 03:56
DaemonFC	LO	May 24 03:56
DaemonFC	:P	May 24 03:56
oiaohm	Smaller screen into the size most people dont use.	May 24 03:56
yuhong	Yep, the Starter 3 apps limit aren't new.	May 24 03:56
DaemonFC	3 app limit is gone	May 24 03:56
oiaohm	3 app limit is gon.	May 24 03:56
DaemonFC	on 7 Starter	May 24 03:56
yuhong	It has existed since Starter was first introduced.	May 24 03:56
oiaohm	netbook makers would not take it.	May 24 03:56
DaemonFC	whoa	May 24 03:56
oiaohm	The purely refused	May 24 03:56
DaemonFC	yeah, well shit	May 24 03:56
DaemonFC	this isn't Haiti	May 24 03:56
DaemonFC	:P	May 24 03:57
twitter	is that why the limit was removed, funny	May 24 03:57
oiaohm	Its going to be funny to see if netbook makers break the rest.	May 24 03:57
DaemonFC	wonder if Starter gets leaked on torrents	May 24 03:57
DaemonFC	:P	May 24 03:57
DaemonFC	and people start using that to escape bloat	May 24 03:57
oiaohm	1 Gb ram limit could be fun.	May 24 03:58
twitter	Windows 7 will probably fail worse than Vista	May 24 03:58
oiaohm	Particular at the rate IE8 leaks memory.	May 24 03:58
yuhong	Hopefully not, if 7 is indeed less bloated than Vista.	May 24 03:58
twitter	1 GB RAM, that would be an upgrade for my laptop.	May 24 03:58
twitter	7 is Vista	May 24 03:58
yuhong	Well, Firefox leaks as well.	May 24 03:58
oiaohm	IE8 leaks faster yuhong	May 24 03:59
yuhong	Well, I will be honest and say that I did not really try to compare, so I can't say.	May 24 04:00
yuhong	I don't think 7 is worse than Vista.	May 24 04:00
oiaohm	Security report is worse.	May 24 04:00
yuhong	7 isn't Vista.	May 24 04:00
oiaohm	Core of 7 is still Vista	May 24 04:01
yuhong	Not exactly.	May 24 04:01
yuhong	They did improve the kernel.	May 24 04:01
twitter	Interest is still low.	May 24 04:01
yuhong	Maybe.	May 24 04:01
oiaohm	Benchmarks don't show it.	May 24 04:01
yuhong	But 7 isn't the same as Vista.	May 24 04:01
oiaohm	Keep on lieing to your self.	May 24 04:01
twitter	It is easy to improve something so broken, but they insist on DRM and other foolishness - it won't perform	May 24 04:02
oiaohm	Performance wise it is Vista.	May 24 04:02
oiaohm	Some of the stupid things you could disable in Vista that were eating its ram out of house and home are disabled out box.	May 24 04:02
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oiaohm	basically disabled UAC makes Windows 7 fell faster than Vista.	May 24 04:03
oiaohm	Its the same old same old yuhong just re wrapped.	May 24 04:04
yuhong	Well, but the code has changes.	May 24 04:04
yuhong	Well, but the code has changed.	May 24 04:04
yuhong	Yes, the performance may be the same, I am not going to argue that one.	May 24 04:04
yuhong	But the code IS different.	May 24 04:05
oiaohm	What is the point of changing code if you don't gain anything.	May 24 04:05
DaemonFC	http://www.google.com/trends?q=Windows+7%2C+Windows+Vista&ctab=0&geo=all&date=all&sort=0	May 24 04:05
mib_iqvpen	Lipstick.ChangeColor()	May 24 04:05
DaemonFC	http://www.google.com/trends?q=Windows%2C+Linux&ctab=0&geo=all&date=all&sort=0	May 24 04:05
DaemonFC	http://www.google.com/trends?q=Windows%2C+Ubuntu&ctab=0&geo=all&date=all&sort=0	May 24 04:06
yuhong	I am not going to argue whether it gains anything.	May 24 04:06
oiaohm	What did they change yuhong. Massive number of cpu support so it can support like 256 processors.	May 24 04:07
oiaohm	Only 1 problem no one has machines like that.	May 24 04:07
yuhong	But on security, anyone written a Linux boot-time rootkit like the one the written for Windows 7.	May 24 04:07
oiaohm	And machines like that use more than 2 sockets that windows 7 does not support.	May 24 04:07
mib_iqvpen	and the people that do (clusters, supercomputers) run Linux on them	May 24 04:07
yuhong	oiaohm: That is for Server 2008 R2, the server version of Windows 7.	May 24 04:08
oiaohm	Most of the alterations are for Server 2008	May 24 04:08
oiaohm	Not for Windows 7.	May 24 04:08
DaemonFC	blue pill would be OS-independent	May 24 04:08
oiaohm	There is basically nothing for the desktop user.	May 24 04:09
oiaohm	Other than annoyances removed.	May 24 04:09
oiaohm	That is the total of what Windows 7 is offering.	May 24 04:09
yuhong	BTW, Intel is introducing an x2APIC to support more than 256 CPUs.	May 24 04:09
oiaohm	Linux you nornally don't build 256 CPU systems.	May 24 04:10
oiaohm	When you get to that scale you normally 512 to 1024.	May 24 04:10
mib_iqvpen	no. that's true	May 24 04:10
mib_iqvpen	or more	May 24 04:10
oiaohm	Start line of Linux	May 24 04:10
oiaohm	Is above what Windows supports.	May 24 04:10
yuhong	Server 2008 R2 supports it, as do recent versions of the Linux kernel.	May 24 04:11
oiaohm	Linux kernel supports way more.	May 24 04:11
oiaohm	And has for years.	May 24 04:11
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oiaohm	4096 max is default Linux kernel.	May 24 04:11
oiaohm	Custom is over 64000	May 24 04:12
oiaohm	They are not even in the game really yuhong	May 24 04:12
yuhong	The xAPIC is limited to 256 CPUs.	May 24 04:12
oiaohm	LOL	May 24 04:13
yuhong	The x2APIC supports more, as well as using MSRs for programming instead of MMIO.	May 24 04:13
yuhong	Intel is going to support it with Nehalem-EX.	May 24 04:14
yuhong	I am not going to argue about 7's performance, but it is different code.	May 24 04:15
oiaohm	From the point of view of users that the code is different make no difference.	May 24 04:15
yuhong	Yes.	May 24 04:15
oiaohm	It if results are different.	May 24 04:15
oiaohm	What they are not so its the same old same old.	May 24 04:16
oiaohm	There is a overwrapper to xAPIC that windows does not support.	May 24 04:16
yuhong	I would like to find more about it.	May 24 04:16
yuhong	BTW, one of the challenges involved in supporting more than 64 CPUs in Windows is that existing APIs for setting processor affinity uses one bit per processor.	May 24 04:18
yuhong	So on 64-bit, you are limited to 64 CPUs.	May 24 04:18
oiaohm	Linux kernel has lots of things in it that were developers so it could scale higher.	May 24 04:19
oiaohm	The advantage of being used in the development hardware.	May 24 04:19
DaemonFC	Vista Business supports 2 physical CPUs with as many cores on them as you want	May 24 04:20
DaemonFC	dunno about Server	May 24 04:20
DaemonFC	probably a lot	May 24 04:20
oiaohm	It only can manage them up to a point.	May 24 04:20
oiaohm	There is always a hard limit.	May 24 04:21
yuhong	Yep, it has always MS's policy to count physical CPUs not cores.	May 24 04:21
yuhong	And that hard limit is what MS is trying to fix with Server 2008 R2's kernel.	May 24 04:21
yuhong	Nehalem-EX has 4 physical CPUs, 8 cores in each of them, and 2 threads in each of them.	May 24 04:22
yuhong	4 * 8 * 2 = 64	May 24 04:22
mib_iqvpen	Speaking of hard limits, it appears there will be a new set of hardware restrictions on netbooks, courtesy of MS.	May 24 04:22
mib_iqvpen	http://pcper.com/comments.php?nid=7203#reply	May 24 04:22
oiaohm	The bad part about those limits is a arm cpu and motherboard can do them simply.	May 24 04:24
oiaohm	Just not run windows.	May 24 04:24
twitter	It's funny how M$ is spinning the limits	May 24 04:25
twitter	on slashdot, for example, they try to take credit for the rise of ARM netbooks	May 24 04:25
mib_iqvpen	I hadn't seen that yet. I'm glad I wasn't drinking anything when you posted that.	May 24 04:25
twitter	idiots will think, oh yeah, Windows 7 made people produce ARM netbooks, as if M$ had not fought tooth and nail against it.	May 24 04:26
twitter	see today's slashdot.	May 24 04:26
oiaohm	yuhong: biggest channel for Linux at 4096 is OS locking.	May 24 04:26
oiaohm	channel/challenges	May 24 04:26
oiaohm	There are insane cases where correcting 1 lock increases threw put by over 800 percent.	May 24 04:27
mib_iqvpen	still, I might like to have a 12 inch screen.	May 24 04:27
twitter	Yes, a 12 inch screen is nice	May 24 04:27
twitter	about as low as I can tollerate	May 24 04:27
yuhong	Another news on /., BTW, is that a new Windows netbook has been accidentally infected.	May 24 04:27
twitter	" Max specs on Windows 7 Starter Edition decide industry direction" More of the same PR.	May 24 04:28
oiaohm	yuhong: status normal.	May 24 04:28
yuhong	What do you mean?	May 24 04:28
twitter	ARM netbooks have been on the way for years. Windows 7 has nothing to do with it and other chip makers are scrambling to be ready	May 24 04:28
oiaohm	MS machines infected from factor happen on the time.	May 24 04:28
twitter	It's nice to see people report it	May 24 04:29
oiaohm	Most of the time it don't get news coverage.	May 24 04:29
twitter	shame, people should know what they are getting into when they use Windows	May 24 04:29
yuhong	Yep.	May 24 04:29
mib_iqvpen	You think non-MS slave OEMs will produce hardware that goes around the limits (at least for screen size)?	May 24 04:29
yuhong	Maybe.	May 24 04:29
oiaohm	MS has already dropped 1 limit under presure.	May 24 04:30
yuhong	Yep.	May 24 04:30
oiaohm	Problem with hardware markers they smell blood they will push.	May 24 04:30
mib_iqvpen	I'd like to get a netbook, but I'm waiting for the ARM ones. I have no interest in them until then.	May 24 04:30
oiaohm	MS has not got to the release yet.	May 24 04:30
oiaohm	Everythign in those limits could change yet.	May 24 04:30
yuhong	Yep.	May 24 04:31
oiaohm	Most likely less.	May 24 04:31
oiaohm	Over all there are less limits this time around.	May 24 04:31
mib_iqvpen	MS can cripple their own OS all they want. If I'm not using it, it doesn't affect me. But I hate to see them cripple my hardware too.	May 24 04:31
yuhong	I already tried to push MS to increase the licensing limit of 4GB for 32-bit client Windows.	May 24 04:32
oiaohm	That is sad	May 24 04:32
yuhong	http://www.geoffchappell.com/notes/windows/license/memory.htm	May 24 04:32
oiaohm	Linux support 64GB of ram on 32 bit system.	May 24 04:32
yuhong	Yep, as well as some server versions of Windows.	May 24 04:33
oiaohm	So supporting 4GB is basically nothing.	May 24 04:33
oiaohm	64 GB is the hardware limit.	May 24 04:33
yuhong	What I was trying to push is to do the same for client versions of Windows.	May 24 04:33
oiaohm	Without using a expanded.	May 24 04:33
yuhong	Geoff Chappell was able to hack the licensing limit of 4GB for 32-bit Vista.	May 24 04:34
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oiaohm	Main reason why MS is stuck at 4GB is there drivers are not PAE aware.	May 24 04:34
the_mad_hatter	Evening.	May 24 04:34
oiaohm	In the desktop market	May 24 04:34
mib_iqvpen	hi	May 24 04:34
the_mad_hatter	oiaohm - not true. Windows 2000 could handle over 4 gigs.	May 24 04:35
the_mad_hatter	And I mean the desktop version.	May 24 04:35
oiaohm	Yes and a lot of drivers break the_mad_hatter	May 24 04:35
oiaohm	Lot of third party drivers are not PAE compadible.	May 24 04:35
yuhong	Yep, MS was forced to enable PAE in a mode that limits physical address space to 4GB because it was needed for NX.	May 24 04:36
oiaohm	LOL	May 24 04:36
oiaohm	NX works on 64GB of memory.	May 24 04:36
yuhong	Yep.	May 24 04:36
the_mad_hatter	In that case, the driver OEMS should have been shot.	May 24 04:36
oiaohm	Agree the_mad_hatter	May 24 04:36
oiaohm	MS is basically covering up for them.	May 24 04:37
yuhong	Before that happened, the 4GB licensing limit was for total memory.	May 24 04:37
yuhong	So yes if you enabled PAE on Win2000 you could recover the 512 MB lost to devices.	May 24 04:37
the_mad_hatter	So why didn't they? Because they could claim that you needed to pay more to access higher amounts of memory.	May 24 04:38
twitter	they did not because non free software is restricting that way.	May 24 04:38
twitter	they don't trust each other, so they have to "freeze" APIs	May 24 04:38
twitter	all fall to the lowest common denominator	May 24 04:39
yuhong	That was what the licensing limit was for and has been for since Windows 2000.	May 24 04:39
the_mad_hatter	No, because of the cash. You won't go wrong when looking at Microsoft moves if you think of money.	May 24 04:39
the_mad_hatter	Oh, good book you guys should read - After the Software Wars	May 24 04:39
the_mad_hatter	http://www.lulu.com/content/paperback-book/after-the-software-wars/4964815	May 24 04:39
yuhong	What changed was the interpretation of that licensing limit.	May 24 04:39
the_mad_hatter	Written by an ex-microsoftie	May 24 04:40
twitter	seen it	May 24 04:40
twitter	thanks	May 24 04:40
yuhong	Before MS was forced to enable PAE for NX, it was interpreted as total memory.	May 24 04:40
yuhong	So yes if you enabled PAE on Win2000 you could recover the 512 MB lost to devices, but you still could not access more than 4 GB of total memory.	May 24 04:41
twitter	information on the workings of M$ is interesting, but his free software interpretation is sound but derivative.	May 24 04:41
yuhong	Afterwards it was changed to total physical address space.	May 24 04:41
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the_mad_hatter	Heh. That argument could go on all night.	May 24 04:42
the_mad_hatter	BTW, what is the best distro for Power PC Macs?	May 24 04:42
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yuhong	BTW, what allowed PAE to be auto-enabled on Windows was that on Windows, the bootloader automatically detected and chose the right kernel.	May 24 04:43
oiaohm	http://widefox.pbworks.com/Memory Linux memory split on a 64 bit system is insane.	May 24 04:44
yuhong	On Linux, this do not exist, so even today most Linux distros are installed with the non-PAE kernel that lacks NX support.	May 24 04:44
oiaohm	That is wrong	May 24 04:45
oiaohm	You don't need PAE to use NX.	May 24 04:45
yuhong	Yes, you do, if you don	May 24 04:45
oiaohm	Lot of non PAE Linux kernels still active NX.	May 24 04:45
yuhong	Yes, you do, if you don't believe me read the AMD or Intel docs.	May 24 04:45
yuhong	The reason was that there was not enough space in the non-PAE page tables.	May 24 04:46
oiaohm	Look closer at the Linux kernel.	May 24 04:47
oiaohm	Non PAE built kernel will still detect a PAE and use NX.	May 24 04:47
oiaohm	PAE built kernel will map blocks using PAE.	May 24 04:47
yuhong	Can you provide me a link. I'd be intrested.	May 24 04:48
oiaohm	I would have to dig out the nx handling in the Linux kernel.	May 24 04:49
yuhong	BTW, Fedora 11 installs the PAE kernel by default and I suspect one of the first to do so.	May 24 04:49
oiaohm	That is not the first.	May 24 04:49
DaemonFC	the OS can emulate the NX bit	May 24 04:49
DaemonFC	Windows can and so can Linux	May 24 04:50
DaemonFC	software DEP/Exec Shield	May 24 04:50
yuhong	Yes, and in fact even Fedora 11 does it on processor lacking NX support.	May 24 04:50
yuhong	BTW, the Windows emulation of the NX bit relates to exception handling.	May 24 04:50
yuhong	It is basically checking the page attributes before jumping to the exception handler.	May 24 04:51
yuhong	Actually, Mandriva tried it for a while but it later turned out that Pentium Ms lacking NX also lack PAE.	May 24 04:52
yuhong	BTW, Solaris and Mac OS X not only auto-detects PAE, but also go one step further and auto-detect 64-bit support.	May 24 04:54
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DaemonFC	yeah, just the kernel though	May 24 04:55
DaemonFC	Windows, Linux, and FreeBSD are true 64-bit	May 24 04:55
yuhong	Yep, these OSs has a 32-bit userspace.	May 24 04:56
yuhong	In fact, even most of the kernel of Mac OS X is 32-bit.	May 24 04:56
DaemonFC	yeah, that's cause they support the Core Duo which is 32-bit	May 24 04:57
DaemonFC	bad mistake to ever support that CPU	May 24 04:57
yuhong	But these OSes do ship with some 64-bit userspace apps.	May 24 04:57
oiaohm	Debian does some time cause you hell.	May 24 04:58
yuhong	Why supporting the Core Duo is a mistake?	May 24 04:58
oiaohm	Install 32 bit system it detect 64 bit cpu so installs 64 bit kernel.	May 24 04:58
oiaohm	So nvidia drivers will not install.	May 24 04:58
oiaohm	Everything else works.	May 24 04:59
yuhong	I did not know this, can you provide me a link?	May 24 04:59
DaemonFC	that's bullshit	May 24 04:59
DaemonFC	if the user wants 32-bit	May 24 04:59
DaemonFC	give them 32-bit	May 24 05:00
oiaohm	amd64 bit build kernel works out faster on the hardware.	May 24 05:00
the_mad_hatter	most uses don't know the difference	May 24 05:00
DaemonFC	til Nvidia won't install	May 24 05:00
DaemonFC	then they'll just say Fedora is shit	May 24 05:01
DaemonFC	and go back to Windows	May 24 05:01
oiaohm	Other than that they don't know the difference.	May 24 05:01
the_mad_hatter	my wife is running 64 bit Ubuntu, doesn't know it	May 24 05:01
DaemonFC	yeah, cause it's a real 64-bit system	May 24 05:01
DaemonFC	not a freankenbuild	May 24 05:01
oiaohm	Linux 64 bit kernel runs 32 bit applications perfectly.	May 24 05:01
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yuhong	Yep.	May 24 05:02
yuhong	Looks like you are mixing up Fedora with Debian.	May 24 05:02
oiaohm	Drivers are where things go strange.	May 24 05:02
yuhong	Yep.	May 24 05:02
yuhong	Even Solaris requires 64-bit drivers for the 64-bit kernel.	May 24 05:02
DaemonFC	30% of Windows users are on Vista	May 24 05:02
oiaohm	Nvidia 64 bit drivers required a 64 bit envorment for there installer.	May 24 05:02
DaemonFC	1/3rd of them use x64	May 24 05:02
the_mad_hatter	not if you use kernel drivers. OEM drivers are something else	May 24 05:02
DaemonFC	so drivers are not really a problem anymore	May 24 05:02
oiaohm	So once you provide that you can install the Nvidia drivers.	May 24 05:03
oiaohm	Basically just makes the process a little onger.	May 24 05:03
oiaohm	longer.	May 24 05:03
oiaohm	Or you go into debian and force it to install a normal 32 bit kernel.	May 24 05:03
oiaohm	Ie dont selection the one labeled amd64	May 24 05:04
yuhong	Mac OS X's kernel is mostly 32-bit even on 64-bit CPUs.	May 24 05:04
yuhong	On 64-bit CPUs it mostly runs in 32-bit compatiblity mode to support 64-bit userland apps.	May 24 05:04
oiaohm	Linux 32 bit and 64 bit kernel source is merging.	May 24 05:04
DaemonFC	how could you do that?	May 24 05:05
yuhong	Most of userland though is still 32-bit.	May 24 05:05
oiaohm	Other big change is dosemu stops working with a Linux 64 bit kernel.	May 24 05:05
yuhong	But it can support 64-bit apps even with 32-bit drivers.	May 24 05:06
yuhong	Yep, long mode has no V86 mode.	May 24 05:06
oiaohm	You can still get to v86	May 24 05:06
oiaohm	Just the path to allow it is not approved for main line.	May 24 05:07
oiaohm	http://v86-64.sourceforge.net/ The insane path to get it yuhong	May 24 05:08
yuhong	How does it work? By leaving long mode?	May 24 05:09
oiaohm	Yep.	May 24 05:09
yuhong	AFRIK the 64-bit and 32-bit PAE page table formats are mostly compatible.	May 24 05:09
yuhong	One difference is that some bits which are available to the OS in long mode must be zero in PAE mode.	May 24 05:16
yuhong	In particular from 52 bits (which is BTW the architectural maximum physical address space limit) to just before the NX bit.	May 24 05:17
yuhong	These can be used by the OS in long mode, but must be zero in PAE mode.	May 24 05:17
oiaohm	Yep that is why its possiable there is a quite usable bridge.	May 24 05:19
oiaohm	Lack of support for v86 on 64 bit systems is a choice not to go through the work of getting it.	May 24 05:21
oiaohm	Fare enough really its not what you call the cheapest process.	May 24 05:21
neonfloss	128 bit systems ftw ;)	May 24 05:23
yuhong	16-bit protected mode still works, however, and can be used to call the VBE 3.0 protected mode interface in long mode.	May 24 05:23
yuhong	BTW, on debian selecting the 64-bit kernel by default, can you provide a link?	May 24 05:25
yuhong	I did not know that Debian did this.	May 24 05:25
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oiaohm	It was the last time I used the installer since then I have swapped over to running fully 64 bit less trouble that way.	May 24 05:26
oiaohm	You kinda remember when you get caught by something yuhong	May 24 05:30
yuhong	Yep.	May 24 05:30
oiaohm	Hmm just noticed something MS small machine limits say nothing about the number of screens.	May 24 05:33
DaemonFC	http://www.puredarwin.org/	May 24 05:35
DaemonFC	http://www.puredarwin.org/screenshots	May 24 05:36
oiaohm	Yep another X11 OS.	May 24 05:37
DaemonFC	I used OpenDarwin for a while	May 24 05:38
DaemonFC	it was nice	May 24 05:38
DaemonFC	for something you weren't supposed to be using unless you were a developer	May 24 05:38
yuhong	Another news on slashdot is that video cameras are installed on urinals.	May 24 05:40
yuhong	Yep, I know about OpenDarwin.	May 24 05:41
yuhong	And on Apple and open source, I am sure there are a lot of politics going on inside Apple.	May 24 05:42
DaemonFC	there's no reason not to make an open source OS	May 24 05:42
DaemonFC	all the things that make it a Mac are layered on top of that	May 24 05:42
yuhong	For example, PT_DENY_ATTACH (Mac OS X version of protected processes) can easily patched out.	May 24 05:42
DaemonFC	then you have teh marketing on top of that	May 24 05:43
DaemonFC	it's like a sandwich	May 24 05:43
yuhong	Because xnu source is available.	May 24 05:43
yuhong	Yep, Apple layers closed software on open source software.	May 24 05:43
DaemonFC	which makes me wonder	May 24 05:43
DaemonFC	doesn't Mac have all of this supposed DRM that Vista does?	May 24 05:43
yuhong	Yep, Mac OS X do have DRM features.	May 24 05:44
yuhong	PT_DENY_ATTACH is Mac OS X version of Vista's protected processes.	May 24 05:45
DaemonFC	so why is everyone picking on Vista and not OS X/	May 24 05:45
DaemonFC	Why is there no BadMac campaign at FSF?	May 24 05:45
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oiaohm	DRI2 also allows DRM like features.	May 24 05:45
DaemonFC	you know I've always wondered that	May 24 05:45
yuhong	But because xnu source is available, that is easily patched out.	May 24 05:45
oiaohm	Since you can send commands straight to video card.	May 24 05:45
oiaohm	From userspace.	May 24 05:45
DaemonFC	there's nothing about Linux that stops someone from implementing DRM	May 24 05:46
DaemonFC	within their own application	May 24 05:46
oiaohm	There was.	May 24 05:46
yuhong	Which makes me wonder about the politics inside Apple related to open source.	May 24 05:46
oiaohm	DRI1 you could not get access to the hardware to enfoce it DaemonFC	May 24 05:46
DaemonFC	I meant more like video games	May 24 05:46
oiaohm	I was meaning videos.	May 24 05:47
DaemonFC	the only place I know of that's making any number of significant Linux games uses an Activation system	May 24 05:47
oiaohm	Where you have the display decode it.	May 24 05:47
yuhong	They did close the Mac OS X kernel for 32-bit Intel.	May 24 05:47
yuhong	But when they ported it to 64-bit Intel, they made it open again.	May 24 05:47
DaemonFC	they must not be too worried about it then	May 24 05:47
oiaohm	Its not like being closed source prevents someone from reversing it.	May 24 05:48
yuhong	Yep.	May 24 05:48
oiaohm	Closed source as made no different in protection system cracked.	May 24 05:49
yuhong	There is a bad iPhone campaign at FSF, but that is because it is even more closed.	May 24 05:49
oiaohm	Either the protection system is solid or its not.	May 24 05:49
DaemonFC	I've never seen a DRM scheme that wasn't eventually cracked	May 24 05:49
yuhong	Yep.	May 24 05:49
DaemonFC	why the hell do they even bother?	May 24 05:49
neonfloss	yea, even if you support proprietary software DRM is stupid	May 24 05:50
DaemonFC	they inconvenience the people signing their paychecks more than the ones stealing it	May 24 05:50
yuhong	Because they want to prevent copying of things that can be easily copied.	May 24 05:50
yuhong	That idea themselves is fundamentally flawed.	May 24 05:51
DaemonFC	DRM in music is stupid because there's going to be a market for CDs for a LONG time	May 24 05:51
DaemonFC	and those are analog anyway	May 24 05:51
oiaohm	DRM for what it was designed to do is right. Control documents moving inside a business where people don't have to have rights to control there machines.	May 24 05:51
DaemonFC	they're trying to build a perimeter around something that's already been plundered	May 24 05:51
oiaohm	Use by music and others its really becomes abusive.	May 24 05:51
yuhong	Yep, that is called by MS as IRM.	May 24 05:51
neonfloss	DaemonFC, im not sure how long. in not too long a time I predict solid stated cards intead of cds	May 24 05:51
oiaohm	IRM is a pain in the ass as well.	May 24 05:52
yuhong	Information Rights Management	May 24 05:52
neonfloss	^ thanks	May 24 05:52
yuhong	Look at the copyright law we are getting as another proof that controlling copying of things that can be easily copied is fundementally flawed.	May 24 05:53
neonfloss	copyright is good	May 24 05:54
neonfloss	the current laws, no	May 24 05:54
yuhong	Yep, it is another proof that controlling copying of things that can be easily copied is fundementally flawed.	May 24 05:55
neonfloss	bibliotik.org looks cool :)	May 24 05:57
neonfloss	book torrent site	May 24 05:57
neonfloss	I prefer reading hard copies and buy lots of them, but digital ones are useful for searching text (school projects)	May 24 05:57
neonfloss	woops, wrong chan	May 24 05:57
yuhong	BTW, economics is why people want to control copying of things that can be easily copied.	May 24 05:59
DaemonFC	artificial scarcity creates perception of value	May 24 06:00
oiaohm	Problem with IRM is that all documents on disk end up encrypted. Old style DRM works on access control. So if you can copy the file out you truly do have it and backups are simple to crack back open.	May 24 06:00
oiaohm	IRM makes damaged disks and the like more data loss causing.	May 24 06:00
DaemonFC	yeah, Windows Media Player no longer allows you to back up your license files	May 24 06:02
DaemonFC	that's what I heard anyway	May 24 06:02
DaemonFC	I don't know what you're supposed to do	May 24 06:02
oiaohm	What if file gets slightly damaged.	May 24 06:03
oiaohm	And no long decodes with the licence file.	May 24 06:03
oiaohm	This is not good for business.	May 24 06:03
oiaohm	Its better to be able to recover something than nothing.	May 24 06:03
DaemonFC	that's the problem of whoever is stupid enough to buy them :D	May 24 06:04
oiaohm	Problem old style drm the files are encoded for transport.	May 24 06:04
oiaohm	With secure systems in the network.	May 24 06:04
oiaohm	But storage in business is not encrypted.	May 24 06:04
oiaohm	For the most logical reason. You might need to do data recovery on it.	May 24 06:05
yuhong	BTW, can you provide some links on the old style DRM you are describing.	May 24 06:08
schestowitz	Reader Explains “Microsoft Innovation” < http://boycottnovell.com/2009/05/24/microsoft-innovation-primer/ >	May 24 06:10
yuhong	Yep, MS used a trick similar to this with WLO.	May 24 06:13
yuhong	From http://pages.prodigy.net/michaln/history/os213/index.html	May 24 06:13
yuhong	"I have read allegations that Microsoft's WLO is a blatant ripoff of Micrografx Mirrors, a similar product developed earlier by Micrografx. Supposedly Microsoft's application division was offered to evaluate Mirrors for potential use in Microsoft products, on the condition that Microsoft systems division doesn't learn the details. Looks like they did - not very surprising given Microsoft's...	May 24 06:13
yuhong	...track record. "	May 24 06:13
yuhong	WLO unfortunately was created before the MS/IBM breakup that led MS to stop developing OS/2.	May 24 06:15
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schestowitz	Microsoft Authorised Refurbisher Versus OLPC < http://boycottnovell.com/2009/05/24/computer-aid-international-versus-olpc/ >	May 24 06:24
oiaohm	MAR windows requires a different disk	May 24 06:31
oiaohm	And costs 0 dollar per machine to install	May 24 06:31
*macabe is now known as macabe_		May 24 06:32
DaemonFC	this movie isn't scary, it's actually kind of stupid/funny	May 24 06:32
DaemonFC	(Mimic)	May 24 06:32
oiaohm	There is a fine print you MAR windows.	May 24 06:33
oiaohm	You are not allowed to use them for any form of business usage.	May 24 06:33
twitter	The Right to Read Story is now true. http://www.wired.com/epicenter/2009/05/umich-gets-better-deal-in-googles-library-of-the-future-project/ publishers hold the past hostage and will use the revenues to restrict the future.	May 24 06:33
oiaohm	And if you need a reinstallation disk MS will charge you 54 dollars here.	May 24 06:33
twitter	Google is a participant in this crime.	May 24 06:34
twitter	Copyright of this sort must be abolished.	May 24 06:34
DaemonFC	Gateway includes reinstall discs	May 24 06:34
DaemonFC	those recovery "partitions" that HP uses slay me	May 24 06:34
DaemonFC	that is just so retarded	May 24 06:35
oiaohm	MAR does nto give you recovery partition or a reinstallation disk.	May 24 06:37
oiaohm	Make recovery partitions seam sane.	May 24 06:37
DaemonFC	emachines doesn't give you the discs	May 24 06:38
DaemonFC	call their 800 number	May 24 06:38
DaemonFC	tell them a virus ate your Windows :P	May 24 06:38
DaemonFC	they'll send some out for free	May 24 06:38
oiaohm	Nice of them.	May 24 06:38
schestowitz	Saving SELinux from Mono Before It’s Too Late? < http://boycottnovell.com/2009/05/24/seadmin-mono-problem/ >	May 24 06:41
oiaohm	That breaks the first rule of a secuirty tool.	May 24 06:45
twitter	Roy, how many computers does that "free" computer MAR ship a year.	May 24 06:53
twitter	?	May 24 06:53
twitter	annual report says 140,000	May 24 06:54
twitter	per year	May 24 06:54
DaemonFC	Mono is spreading across every type of software	May 24 06:55
DaemonFC	their goal is to get every kind of user to need it	May 24 06:55
twitter	schestowitz, how did you compute the 19,000 number per shipping container?	May 24 06:59
schestowitz	Not me	May 24 07:00
schestowitz	The one who wrote much of this	May 24 07:01
schestowitz	UK is the worst in terms of h/w reuse	May 24 07:01
schestowitz	There was an article in the MSBBC about it last week	May 24 07:01
twitter	how many computers do they put in a container?	May 24 07:01
schestowitz	Microsoft Goes Political < http://boycottnovell.com/2009/05/24/microsoft-goes-political/ >	May 24 07:01
twitter	I have to laugh at their pirate this hint, hint language, " As standard our machines do not come with operating systems or with any applications software. You may wish to obtain and install this yourself locally because it may be cheaper for you to obtain it than for us to buy it here." I'll bet.	May 24 07:02
twitter	I'm trying to figure out their real costs per year.	May 24 07:02
twitter	Shipping containers should not cost more than $5,000 and probably cost much less.	May 24 07:03
twitter	The difference goes to M$ and staff of one sort or another.	May 24 07:03
twitter	140,000 x (42 + 72) is a whopping 16,000,000 lb or 32 million bucks!	May 24 07:05
twitter	that will buy a lot of shipping, warehouse and staff.	May 24 07:05
twitter	This charity stinks!	May 24 07:05
twitter	The more I think about it, the less I like it. They have basically relabeled dumping and paid themselves very well for it.	May 24 07:12
twitter	schestowitz, I see a lot of BS about M$'s debt move.	May 24 07:25
twitter	at the end of 2008 they said they would go $20 billion in debt to buy $40 billion of their shares.	May 24 07:26
twitter	Over the last couple of weeks there were a number of articles that acted like this is what they were doing.	May 24 07:27
twitter	I thought they had already done their buy backs.	May 24 07:27
twitter	and this earlier article acts as if no one was sure http://www.forbes.com/2009/05/11/microsoft-qwest-shares-financial-personal-finance-guru-insight-national-semiconductor.html	May 24 07:28
twitter	-> " We know not why a company the size and shape of Microsoft needs to raise money through debt issuance--it already has over $30 billion in cash at hand on its books--but if this is a cost-of-capital initiative that leads to the company buying back some of its own float, shareholders may be in for a treat."	May 24 07:29
schestowitz	Microsoft Patents Are Not About Collaboration, They Are About Racketeering < http://boycottnovell.com/2009/05/24/ms-racketeering-not-collaboratio/ >	May 24 07:29
twitter	The $30 billion of cash on had conflicts with other reports of $20 and it's more likely they have none.	May 24 07:29
schestowitz	twitter: yes, the debt..	May 24 07:29
schestowitz	I have an article about it coming	May 24 07:29
schestowitz	I'll make it my next one	May 24 07:29
twitter	cool, there's so much BS out there.	May 24 07:30
twitter	they really cranked up the press on that one.	May 24 07:30
schestowitz	I'll quote the above from you	May 24 07:30
twitter	cool	May 24 07:31
twitter	My thought from earlier is that it's absurd they would buy stocks while firing people and end up in debt over it. You may have seen those thoughts before all the Windows and OS/2 chatter.	May 24 07:33
oiaohm	There is a reason why you buy stocks.	May 24 07:34
oiaohm	They are buying stocks because they are not expecting income.	May 24 07:34
oiaohm	Sun did the same thing.	May 24 07:34
oiaohm	By reducing numbers of stocks in circulation you get to keep the return per share up avoiding a share price colaspse.	May 24 07:35
twitter	So you hope.	May 24 07:35
oiaohm	That is the theory.	May 24 07:36
oiaohm	Now if loss of income is larger than expected.	May 24 07:36
oiaohm	It can end up a company killing move.	May 24 07:36
twitter	So they hope. I'm not sure how they expect to ever have income as they fire the people needed to dig them out of the Vista crater.	May 24 07:36
oiaohm	Its not my hope.	May 24 07:37
twitter	Looks like looting to me. Especially with Bill Gates selling out at less than $20/share.	May 24 07:38
oiaohm	Very much is.	May 24 07:38
twitter	They don't expect a recovery, so they dump company money into shares they own.	May 24 07:38
twitter	Investors left holding the bag on a company filled with disgruntled and overworked employees that somehow managed not to be fired.	May 24 07:39
oiaohm	You would not be firing staff and buying shares if you saw a rosey future.	May 24 07:39
oiaohm	MS is not expecting to recover back to where they were.	May 24 07:40
oiaohm	It what you call trying to patch the leaks.	May 24 07:41
twitter	No product, no earnings, fire employees, goto step one; Death Spiral.	May 24 07:41
oiaohm	You missed a step.	May 24 07:41
twitter	Yeah, loot.	May 24 07:41
twitter	but that's been going on all along.	May 24 07:41
oiaohm	No Product, no earning, fire employees, buy shares to keep share holders happy with returns, goto step one;	May 24 07:42
twitter	World's richest man. World's biggest yacht.	May 24 07:42
oiaohm	You can only do that loop so many times.	May 24 07:42
oiaohm	Before you die.	May 24 07:42
twitter	it goes faster each time	May 24 07:42
oiaohm	MS started in death spiral back in 2004	May 24 07:43
twitter	98	May 24 07:43
oiaohm	People did not notice it.	May 24 07:43
oiaohm	Failure to deliver Vista on time.	May 24 07:43
twitter	I noticed when they rolled XP out.	May 24 07:43
oiaohm	XP roll out still went well.	May 24 07:43
oiaohm	and was on time.	May 24 07:44
twitter	not at first	May 24 07:44
oiaohm	Well for a MS software roll out.	May 24 07:44
twitter	sales were poor, except for channel stuffing	May 24 07:44
oiaohm	It got them back on a stable foot after ME.	May 24 07:44
schestowitz	twitter: MS is done with buybacks	May 24 07:44
twitter	remember that little thing that happened on 9/11	May 24 07:44
schestowitz	They announced it 1 month ago	May 24 07:44
oiaohm	MS really could not aford to kick toe with Vista.	May 24 07:44
schestowitz	At that stage, accroding to their plans, they would be 5 billion in debt	May 24 07:45
schestowitz	Unless they cut these buybacks short.	May 24 07:45
twitter	If M$ is done with buybacks, why are there so many BS articles about it?	May 24 07:45
twitter	As I recall, the original buyback plans called for them to end $20 in debt.	May 24 07:45
twitter	let me pull the link	May 24 07:46
oiaohm	remember at XP sp1 and sp2 MS was money wise sorted.	May 24 07:46
oiaohm	Has had ups and downs each getting more savage.	May 24 07:47
twitter	http://boycottnovell.com/2008/08/06/buyback-debt-option/	May 24 07:47
twitter	ah, the debt was from a yahoo purchase	May 24 07:48
oiaohm	That did not go forwards	May 24 07:48
twitter	back in August Blooberg said they only had $26 billion left.	May 24 07:49
oiaohm	Now that would be wrong of Orcale aquired yahoo.	May 24 07:49
oiaohm	of/if	May 24 07:49
twitter	I really do not believe they now have more money	May 24 07:49
twitter	debt was projected in the event of a yahoo deal or not	May 24 07:50
twitter	only one thing is clear, M$ is lying their ass off about money and plans.	May 24 07:50
schestowitz	twitter: yes	May 24 07:51
schestowitz	But,...	May 24 07:51
schestowitz	Re: Yahoo	May 24 07:51
schestowitz	They later bought back 25bn	May 24 07:51
schestowitz	Said they would take debt	May 24 07:51
schestowitz	5 billion	May 24 07:51
schestowitz	Anyway, let's leave that aside	May 24 07:51
schestowitz	Let me do the post .	May 24 07:51
schestowitz	Then we discuss this in the comments	May 24 07:51
twitter	OK	May 24 07:51
schestowitz	Better than to waste it in public IRC. It is less visible, but used nonetheless	May 24 07:52
schestowitz	I also will put links to MSFT debt posts	May 24 07:52
schestowitz	This must scare Microsoft that all this stuff is made visible	May 24 07:52
twitter	If they are really done with buybacks, all these articles are pure pump and dump	May 24 07:52
schestowitz	Contradictions	May 24 07:52
schestowitz	Just pump	May 24 07:52
schestowitz	Dump is another thing :-)	May 24 07:52
twitter	:)	May 24 07:52
schestowitz	I was told off by the Micro~1 shills that it would be libel to say dump	May 24 07:53
schestowitz	They threatened me	May 24 07:53
twitter	RMS says the UK has bad libel laws.	May 24 07:59
twitter	You don't have to say dump then. Just note that Bill Gates sold off at less than $20/share.	May 24 08:01
twitter	it is strange how libelous your stalkers can be while threatening you with libel for reporting an obvious conclusion.	May 24 08:02
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oiaohm	They still have about 25 billion in reserve twitter.	May 24 08:03
oiaohm	From there reports.	May 24 08:04
twitter	and Vista is the most secure OS ever	May 24 08:04
twitter	hmmm	May 24 08:04
twitter	Contradictions from so many sources can only come from well planned lies.	May 24 08:05
twitter	They can not be trusted.	May 24 08:06
twitter	Even their fanboys are having a hard time putting positive spin on so much bad news and so many contradictions.	May 24 08:07
twitter	lol at the IP Asshole competition.	May 24 08:09
schestowitz	Microsoft Sued Over Its Corruption in Switzerland, Microsoft Debt Revisited < http://boycottnovell.com/2009/05/24/msft-corruption-in-switzerland/ >	May 24 08:09
schestowitz	twitter will love it	May 24 08:09
schestowitz	oiaohm: whose reports?	May 24 08:10
twitter	I thank I will, thanks	May 24 08:10
schestowitz	They can massage figures	May 24 08:10
schestowitz	For instance:	May 24 08:10
schestowitz	In accounting, I could claim to have a huge house	May 24 08:10
schestowitz	But I don't have to tell you I took 3 mortgages on it	May 24 08:10
schestowitz	Then i'll also buy a Ferarri and make you envious	May 24 08:10
schestowitz	You might never see the repossession	May 24 08:11
schestowitz	Microsoft uses perceived might to give the illusion that it'll always be there	May 24 08:11
schestowitz	"Nobody ever gets fired for buying <brand>"	May 24 08:11
schestowitz	Mind you, I had journalists contact me about this	May 24 08:11
schestowitz	They also suspect the same thing about MS	May 24 08:11
schestowitz	But they can't publish about it	May 24 08:11
schestowitz	Libel and all	May 24 08:11
schestowitz	Even if they turn out to be right, at the time of writing they can be sacked	May 24 08:12
schestowitz	People said Madoff was a fraudster for ages	May 24 08:12
schestowitz	They reported him	May 24 08:12
schestowitz	But nobody paid attention	May 24 08:12
schestowitz	Those who said so were even vilified, AFAIK	May 24 08:12
schestowitz	So rare truth-tellers are treated like criminals	May 24 08:12
schestowitz	As oposed to those whom they snitch on	May 24 08:12
schestowitz	*opposed	May 24 08:13
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oiaohm	Stock reports schestowitz	May 24 08:14
oiaohm	Of cource how truthful who knows.	May 24 08:15
schestowitz	When I come to think of it:	May 24 08:15
schestowitz	MS never said it cut buybacks short	May 24 08:15
schestowitz	It said they are complete	May 24 08:16
schestowitz	IOW, it made the buybacks	May 24 08:16
schestowitz	fast	May 24 08:16
schestowitz	Had it not, maybe MSFT wouldbe at $13 right now	May 24 08:16
schestowitz	Who knows...	May 24 08:16
schestowitz	oiaohm: followed the Madoff case?	May 24 08:16
schestowitz	it's amazing how one drops from hero to zero	May 24 08:16
schestowitz	Fame to shame	May 24 08:16
twitter	Well, that's about the size of it. Thanks for reporting it.	May 24 08:17
schestowitz	Microsoft too could be among the Enrons and I am not a sole claimer of this	May 24 08:17
oiaohm	I have not been following madoff.	May 24 08:17
schestowitz	Others blew the whistle too	May 24 08:17
schestowitz	Putting their jobs at stake for this too	May 24 08:17
schestowitz	oiaohm: people knew he lied	May 24 08:17
oiaohm	Enron appeared to have a lot of money in bank until people went looking for it.	May 24 08:17
schestowitz	He could maybe even tell you	May 24 08:17
schestowitz	But that would not help you	May 24 08:17
twitter	The last I heard of the madoff case, the Feds were going after the victims as if they too participated in the fraud	May 24 08:17
schestowitz	Like reporting the police to the police	May 24 08:18
schestowitz	They would be like, "who THE HECK are you?"	May 24 08:18
schestowitz	"You're just jealous"	May 24 08:18
schestowitz	And choose credential of big business over a person who knows better	May 24 08:18
schestowitz	We'll find out one day	May 24 08:18
schestowitz	twitter: maybe they did	May 24 08:18
schestowitz	Fraud is a conspiracy in many cases	May 24 08:18
twitter	It is impossible for only Maddoff to have known.	May 24 08:19
twitter	The arrest was too tidy.	May 24 08:19
twitter	It would be horrible but not surprising to learn that some of the worthy charities defrauded were themselves run by frauds.	May 24 08:20
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Goblin	morning all.	May 24 08:21
twitter	Good morning, I was just going to bed. It is late here.	May 24 08:22
Goblin	ah...nite!	May 24 08:24
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schestowitz	Hey	May 24 08:28
schestowitz	Microsoft’s Sabotage of ODF Still in the News < http://boycottnovell.com/2009/05/24/microsoft-sabotage-of-odf/ >	May 24 08:33
schestowitz	Goblin: how was dinner?	May 24 08:33
schestowitz	BTW, for some matters we have another channel, #boycottnovell-social	May 24 08:34
Goblin	sorry Im on baby watch!	May 24 08:41
Goblin	yeah it was great...	May 24 08:41
Goblin	got back around 9pm	May 24 08:41
schestowitz	Sunny today... I'll be out later	May 24 08:52
schestowitz	I have about 5 more MSFT posts	May 24 08:53
Goblin	me too, Ill be off to the farmers market shortly	May 24 08:53
schestowitz	They carry on cumbling, just like the site (MSWatch)	May 24 08:53
schestowitz	*crumb	May 24 08:53
oiaohm	http://blogs.zdnet.com/BTL/?p=18604 Sneakernet its back.	May 24 09:07
schestowitz	Eye on Microsoft: Even the FBI Can’t Secure Windows < http://boycottnovell.com/2009/05/24/fbi-cannot-secure-windows/ >	May 24 09:07
schestowitz	Ballmer and Co Meet Officials in Kyrgyzstan, Latvia; Microsoft Ukraine Curses FOSS < http://boycottnovell.com/2009/05/24/microsoft-kyrgyzstan-latvia-ukraine/ >	May 24 09:38
oiaohm	Loss of control.	May 24 10:12
oiaohm	Good thing about all these lost markets it normally turns into more developers.	May 24 10:14
schestowitz	Microsoft Blackmails China and Then Fires 300 Chinese Employees < http://boycottnovell.com/2009/05/24/microsoft-blackmail-china-layoffs/ >	May 24 10:14
schestowitz	oiaohm: I will post your Red Hat vid	May 24 10:14
schestowitz	Oggifying right now	May 24 10:15
schestowitz	Goblin: can you add apostrophes to your posts?	May 24 10:27
schestowitz	You anc Chips omit them	May 24 10:27
schestowitz	It makes them seem less reputable when I link to them and quote them	May 24 10:27
Goblin	lol	May 24 10:30
Goblin	one answer...yes...sometimes...	May 24 10:31
Goblin	it depends what Im using to post the article	May 24 10:31
schestowitz	.I was just going through some posts	May 24 10:31
schestowitz	Sometimes I add the missing apostrophes	May 24 10:31
Goblin	a combination of predictive text and WM that Im determined to suffer with until contract runs out	May 24 10:31
Goblin	point taken though	May 24 10:32
schestowitz	Myth Busting: GNU/Linux Takes So Long to Install and Set Up < http://boycottnovell.com/2009/05/24/myth-busting-linux-setup/ >	May 24 10:34
Goblin	at it runs on	May 24 10:41
Goblin	cheap hardware, but I have yet to see why it would be at it runs on	May 24 10:41
Goblin	cheap hardware, but I have yet to see why it would be at it runs on	May 24 10:41
Goblin	cheap hardware, but I have yet to see why it would be at it runs on	May 24 10:41
Goblin	sorry about that	May 24 10:43
Goblin	pasted on wrong channel...	May 24 10:43
Goblin	I have yet to see why it would be	May 24 10:44
Goblin	I have yet to see why it would be	May 24 10:44
Goblin	Im quiting...somethings up with this client	May 24 10:45
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tessier	schestowitz: My wife installed F10 on her Lenovo laptop all by herself. I didn't even know she was doing it.	May 24 10:46
tessier	She got everything except flash-plugin working.	May 24 10:46
schestowitz	Hehe.	May 24 10:46
schestowitz	Did you see the RHEL video?	May 24 10:46
schestowitz	http://boycottnovell.com/2009/05/24/myth-busting-linux-setup/	May 24 10:46
tessier	I have definitely exposed her to Linux quite a bit over the last couple of years but she has never installed it before.	May 24 10:47
schestowitz	Mandriva comes with Flash and binary display drivers	May 24 10:47
schestowitz	tessier: I remember trying to install Red Hat in 2002 or 2003	May 24 10:47
schestowitz	Red Hat floppies were needed and it was not simple	May 24 10:47
tessier	I have never installed RH from floppies.	May 24 10:48
schestowitz	That was the wrong way	May 24 10:48
tessier	Slackware was the only Linux distro I ever installed from floppies.	May 24 10:48
tessier	Everything else has been CD	May 24 10:48
schestowitz	I didn't have the CDs	May 24 10:48
schestowitz	tessier: floppies to kickstart the ISOs	May 24 10:48
oiaohm	I have instaled RH from floppies.	May 24 10:48
schestowitz	Cause I couldn't burn the CDs	May 24 10:48
oiaohm	Not something I recommend.	May 24 10:48
*tessier wonders what they would say if I went into #redhat and asked where I could get the floppy imgaes		May 24 10:49
tessier	images	May 24 10:49
oiaohm	You will be told to make them yourself.	May 24 10:49
tessier	My 486 doesn't have a CD ROM drive!	May 24 10:49
_boo_	but it's capable of one	May 24 10:49
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_Hicham_	Hi All!	May 24 10:51
_Hicham_	the room is still sleepy	May 24 10:53
oiaohm	Does it have a network card. tessier 4 flopplys 2 you normallly need to make ie. 1 start the network install 1 addon drivers. Yes now pray the floppy drive works right and you have a fast server to provide everything.	May 24 10:53
oiaohm	Ie you don't want to dare try that over dialup tessier.	May 24 10:53
schestowitz	What Rockefeller and Gates Have in Common < http://boycottnovell.com/2009/05/24/antitrust-rockefeller-and-gates/ >	May 24 10:54
schestowitz	I don't think I even have floppies left	May 24 10:55
schestowitz	No drives for it anyway...	May 24 10:55
*schestowitz remembers he has a Win98 rescue floppy somewhere in the drawers		May 24 10:55
oiaohm	I have a box of 5 1/2 floppys around here somewhere.	May 24 10:56
schestowitz	_Hicham_: I've just done a post about your mate, BillyG	May 24 10:56
oiaohm	Opps 5 1/4	May 24 10:56
oiaohm	Just saw the box.	May 24 10:56
schestowitz	Yeah.	May 24 10:57
_Hicham_	I love BillyG	May 24 10:57
_Hicham_	he is a great guy	May 24 10:58
schestowitz	There were large ones, no? Predating me..	May 24 10:58
_Hicham_	oiaohm : what are u talking about?	May 24 10:58
oiaohm	They are not large 8 inch ones are large schestowitz	May 24 10:59
schestowitz	Did you hear about half a tera on one optical CD?	May 24 11:00
schestowitz	They'll expand that further	May 24 11:00
schestowitz	Think of the possibilities.	May 24 11:00
oiaohm	http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Floppy_disk	May 24 11:00
schestowitz	From binary cards to the whole Internet on a few CDs	May 24 11:00
_Hicham_	why floppies?	May 24 11:00
schestowitz	Wikipedia in a matchbox	May 24 11:00
_Hicham_	use CD-Roms	May 24 11:01
oiaohm	You can fit 240 meg on LS-240 3 1/2 inch floppy	May 24 11:01
oiaohm	Never got popular.	May 24 11:01
_Hicham_	oiaohm is floppy disk lover	May 24 11:02
*tessier is glad he did not have enough money to invest in a zip drive back in the day		May 24 11:03
oiaohm	LS-240 drives were prised for data recovery on normal floppies.	May 24 11:03
tessier	100M sure seemed like a lot of data though...	May 24 11:03
oiaohm	These days it sits on shelf doing nothing.	May 24 11:03
oiaohm	Zip 750s were impressive.	May 24 11:05
oiaohm	In there time.	May 24 11:05
_Hicham_	I can't browse BN with Firefox3.5beta5	May 24 11:06
_Hicham_	I am using Chromium to browse it	May 24 11:07
oiaohm	http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jaz_drive For data loses in that time nothing beats this.	May 24 11:07
_Hicham_	Chromium seems very promising	May 24 11:07
_Hicham_	did u use Chromium oiaohm?	May 24 11:07
oiaohm	Have not bothered.	May 24 11:09
oiaohm	Firefox does what I need.	May 24 11:09
_Hicham_	what Firefox version are u using?	May 24 11:11
oiaohm	3.0.10	May 24 11:12
oiaohm	I am not a person to be running expermintal on my web browser.	May 24 11:12
oiaohm	I kinda need to to work at times.	May 24 11:12
_Hicham_	so u don't like to experiment new techs?	May 24 11:13
oiaohm	Some things I do.	May 24 11:15
oiaohm	Somethings I don't.	May 24 11:15
oiaohm	Like expermental versions of blender I do play with.	May 24 11:15
oiaohm	ulteo on 64bit what is another expermental.	May 24 11:16
oiaohm	Basically I am selective where I will experiment.	May 24 11:17
oiaohm	Where I was younger I was a little more care free about it.	May 24 11:18
_Hicham_	but u like experimenting new kernels, right?	May 24 11:20
oiaohm	To a point.	May 24 11:24
oiaohm	I normally don't touch non releases.	May 24 11:25
schestowitz	_Hicham_: can you try to install NoScript or disable JS in Preferences?	May 24 11:25
oiaohm	Thing I have found on adverage a kernel build from kernel.org is normally more stable than any distribution kernel.	May 24 11:25
schestowitz	This way we can eliminate possible causes for slowdown in BN and prepare it for FF3.5	May 24 11:25
schestowitz	I am transcoding ATM	May 24 11:25
schestowitz	Carlin skit	May 24 11:26
oiaohm	That is why its to a point _Hicham_ On the kernel I am going after stablity and speed.	May 24 11:26
oiaohm	Not exactly what you can experimenting.	May 24 11:26
oiaohm	When young I would be running proto patches and the like.	May 24 11:26
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schestowitz	Microsoft Lobbies Obama and Partly Takes Over Gazillion < http://boycottnovell.com/2009/05/24/microsoft-lobbies-obama-gazillion/ >	May 24 11:43
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oiaohm	schestowitz: I guess you have already picked this up. http://www.osnews.com/story/21532/US_Congress_Mulls_Law_to_Circumvent_DMCA_for_Cars	May 24 12:09
_boo_	i still don't get it... which one is better for now: theora or x264	May 24 12:11
_boo_	in speed it's most likely x264	May 24 12:12
_boo_	but what about quality	May 24 12:12
_boo_	there are psnr benchmarks, but it's not sufficient to say anything	May 24 12:12
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oiaohm	_boo_: in time speed will not be a issue.	May 24 12:16
oiaohm	Off loading to video card.	May 24 12:16
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_boo_	http://web.mit.edu/xiphmont/Public/theora/demo7.html	May 24 12:18
schestowitz	If Microsoft Removes 3-Applications Restriction, It Shows Great Fear of GNU/Linux http://boycottnovell.com/2009/05/24/ms-removes-3-app-restriction/	May 24 12:24
oiaohm	More great fear of hardware markers	May 24 12:25
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schestowitz	Yes, even Intel goes the other way	May 24 12:30
schestowitz	It must have played with Vista 7, then gambled on Moblin	May 24 12:31
Aondo	probably not the easiest thing to do when you are walking on broken glass	May 24 12:33
oiaohm	Intel has gone the other way for a fair while now.	May 24 12:37
schestowitz	Yes	May 24 12:38
schestowitz	g2g, back at 3	May 24 12:38
oiaohm	MS empire was built on the support of Intel.	May 24 12:39
MinceR	j0	May 24 12:41
_Hicham_	hardware makers are killing MS softly	May 24 12:42
_Hicham_	Chromium renders pages like a charm	May 24 12:48
oiaohm	It will not stay soft forever	May 24 13:01
oiaohm	Once they start beating up the server market I expect to see MS out with Axes.	May 24 13:01
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_Hicham_	ogg files are working in Epiphany	May 24 14:12
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_boo_	like it make any sense if some media format works in a browser...	May 24 14:33
_boo_	like video and/or audio	May 24 14:33
oiaohm	Saves having to intergrate flash to play them _boo_	May 24 14:34
_boo_	omg...	May 24 14:34
_boo_	i don't play audio and video in browser	May 24 14:35
_boo_	i just dl them	May 24 14:35
_Hicham_	hahahaha	May 24 14:35
_Hicham_	really great	May 24 14:35
_boo_	'cause i know what i'm going to dl	May 24 14:35
_Hicham_	what a web browsing experience	May 24 14:35
_boo_	yup	May 24 14:35
_boo_	i saw good players at sites with flash	May 24 14:36
_boo_	barely you have much better experience in browsing than me actually	May 24 14:36
_boo_	i just use inet for what i want, not for what i'm better with offline	May 24 14:36
_boo_	like there are no sites to start and stop playing big list of songs	May 24 14:37
_boo_	and choose one that you want or band or smth	May 24 14:37
_boo_	and no video sites to watch smth at random and dl only waht you want	May 24 14:38
_boo_	so browser +every codec support is kinda waste of time for developers of browser	May 24 14:38
_Hicham_	strange reasoning	May 24 14:39
_boo_	don't see anything bad in it	May 24 14:40
_boo_	i don't want to be browser dependent at final	May 24 14:40
_boo_	moving everything to browser will end us in clouds	May 24 14:41
_boo_	you may be like that	May 24 14:41
_boo_	but that's not what i chose