IRC: #boycottnovell @ FreeNode: June 8th, 2009

_Hicham_Dont worry, DaemonFC will write a decent GUIJun 08 00:00
DaemonFCohhhh, even better!!!Jun 08 00:00
fewaDaemonFC, there already are plenty of themJun 08 00:00
DaemonFCa C# tool that uses GTK# for a user interface that converts music to WMA with FFMPEGJun 08 00:01
DaemonFCfor LinuxJun 08 00:01
DaemonFC:)Jun 08 00:01
DaemonFCnow we're onto somethingJun 08 00:01
DaemonFCthink Novell would ship it for us?Jun 08 00:01
DaemonFC:)Jun 08 00:01
fewa:PJun 08 00:01
_Hicham_yesJun 08 00:01
DaemonFCFFWMA-SharpJun 08 00:01
DaemonFClolJun 08 00:01
_Hicham_http://soundconverter.berlios.de/http://soundconverter.berlios.de/Jun 08 00:02
fewaFreedom#Jun 08 00:02
_Hicham_Mono finally brings exe format to LinuxJun 08 00:02
_Hicham_and dllsJun 08 00:02
balzacickJun 08 00:02
fewadll hellJun 08 00:02
fewagrossJun 08 00:02
_Hicham_so that we will have the same restrictions on shared libraries from WindowsJun 08 00:03
_Hicham_and have one crt loaded with every programJun 08 00:03
fewa"finially" brings.Jun 08 00:03
fewayou say it like it was a logical decisionJun 08 00:03
_Hicham_and stop at the boundaries of the shared librariesJun 08 00:03
_Hicham_and add more overhead to fix thatJun 08 00:04
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balzacI need to hear some news about Microsoft's financial misfortuneJun 08 00:04
_Hicham_they are bringing the unified namespace super ideaJun 08 00:04
_Hicham_Microsoft is doing wellJun 08 00:05
_Hicham_their share are risingJun 08 00:05
balzac_Hicham_: according to whom?Jun 08 00:05
_Hicham_to meJun 08 00:05
balzacI want bad news.Jun 08 00:05
_Hicham_they buy their own sharesJun 08 00:05
_Hicham_DaemonFC is familiar with Gstreamer APIJun 08 00:06
_Hicham_so writing fully integrated GUI converters is easy for himJun 08 00:06
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_Hicham_he already fired up MonoDevelop and started writing some codeJun 08 00:07
_Hicham_DaemonFC : did u test MonoDevelop on Vista?Jun 08 00:08
DaemonFCI was able to get Banshee running on VistaJun 08 00:08
DaemonFCthere was a blogging about it on Miguel De Icaza's blog a couple years agoJun 08 00:09
_Hicham_Miguel is a great programmerJun 08 00:09
_Hicham_he started gnomeJun 08 00:10
_Hicham_and started monoJun 08 00:10
_Hicham_thanks to him, gnome is now at risk of getting bloated with him cil libsJun 08 00:11
yuhongBTW, the "Don't get me wrong" thing reminds me of when I was using it to defend Apple.Jun 08 00:11
_Hicham_why defend Apple?Jun 08 00:11
DaemonFCICaza wanted to work for Microsoft but at the time they couldn't get him an H1-BJun 08 00:12
DaemonFCso he started GNOME and began reimplementing workalikes to anything in WindowsJun 08 00:12
yuhongBut because I was defending Apple, I'm sure it was no problem to schestowitz.Jun 08 00:12
_Hicham_couldn't he work for them from Mexico?Jun 08 00:13
DaemonFCthis was 1996Jun 08 00:13
yuhong"Don’t get me wrong, I like the Mac platform and Mac OS X and there are many advantages to it over Windows, but freedom is not one of them."Jun 08 00:13
yuhongFrom a comment to http://boycottnovell.com/2009/06/01/linux-drm-warning/.Jun 08 00:13
DaemonFCanyway, Novell picked him up and now he reimplements Microsoft stuff for themJun 08 00:14
schestowitzBalrog: that type of news is coming in the morningJun 08 00:14
schestowitzI'm just processing some news links ATM for ma homies ;-)Jun 08 00:14
_Hicham_he is desperately wanting moneyJun 08 00:15
*schestowitz also watches http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xGyh1Qsw-Ak&feature=relatedJun 08 00:15
_Hicham_he can work as a drug smugglerJun 08 00:15
yuhong"Don't get me wrong" thing I meant the pattern schestowitz mentioned.Jun 08 00:15
DaemonFChmmmJun 08 00:15
DaemonFCFoobar 2000 isn't a bad player eitherJun 08 00:15
_Hicham_DaemonFC : let sell drugsJun 08 00:15
yuhongI was using it to defend Apple also.Jun 08 00:15
schestowitzDaemonFC: 1998Jun 08 00:15
_Hicham_I will send u some hashish from hereJun 08 00:16
DaemonFChttp://appdb.winehq.org/objectManager.php?sClass=application&iId=1749Jun 08 00:16
_Hicham_and u will sell it in the USJun 08 00:16
DaemonFCahhhJun 08 00:16
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yuhongBut because what I was defending was Apple not MS, I'm sure it was no problem to schestowitz.Jun 08 00:16
DaemonFCI could probably make it integrate with the Windows encoder filesJun 08 00:17
DaemonFCif I needed toJun 08 00:17
_Hicham_yuhong : u can defend MicrosoftJun 08 00:17
DaemonFCthrough WineJun 08 00:17
yuhongYes, but here I was defending Apple.Jun 08 00:17
_Hicham_DaemonFC : what do u say?Jun 08 00:17
DaemonFCyou're trying to get me to admit I've smoked potJun 08 00:17
DaemonFCoooopsJun 08 00:18
yuhongBut I did admit that Apple provided no more freedom than MS.Jun 08 00:18
DaemonFChttp://appdb.winehq.org/objectManager.php?sClass=application&iId=3488Jun 08 00:18
_Hicham_DaemonFC : u can make a lot of moneyJun 08 00:18
yuhongschestowitz: What do you think of this one?Jun 08 00:19
_Hicham_I am defending DaemonFC corp.Jun 08 00:19
fewaschestowitz, yeah im still of the opinion that you should put the link to the off inside the <video>, as in fiefox at least, you can right click as save videos the same as picturesJun 08 00:20
yuhongBN do sometimes defend Apple, for example when MS paid Mac bloggers to slam Apple.Jun 08 00:20
fewa*oggJun 08 00:20
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*_Hicham_ thinks that DaemonFC will port Winamp to LinuxJun 08 00:25
DaemonFCit kind of works in WineJun 08 00:25
_Hicham_it works last time I checkedJun 08 00:25
_Hicham_with some minor sound issuesJun 08 00:25
DaemonFC5.5 with Bento skin?Jun 08 00:25
_Hicham_noJun 08 00:26
_Goblinwhy not port Wine to Vista? you may then get those pesky xp apps workingJun 08 00:26
_Hicham_older versionJun 08 00:26
_Hicham_gnJun 08 00:26
_GoblingnJun 08 00:26
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DaemonFC2.95 was never officially released but has most of the file format support of Winamp 5Jun 08 00:26
DaemonFCI patched it up with Winamp 5's in_mp3.dll for a whileJun 08 00:27
DaemonFCtil I decided to just upgradeJun 08 00:28
DaemonFCmost of the reason I never upgraded to Winamp 3 was because it was buggy and didn't support a lot of things version 2 didJun 08 00:29
_Goblina windows binary buggy?  no...i don't believe that.Jun 08 00:29
DaemonFCdevelopment was protracted and the end result was not good, so they ended up ditching most of their new framework and salvaging what they couldJun 08 00:30
DaemonFCand called the result Wiinamp 5Jun 08 00:30
DaemonFCWinamp was at one point, nearly open sourced by AOLJun 08 00:31
DaemonFCWasabi wasJun 08 00:31
_Goblindoes it still kick the llamas a**?Jun 08 00:31
DaemonFChttp://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wasabi_(software)Jun 08 00:33
DaemonFCyeah, and AOL censored the "ass" part with "Maaaaaaah"Jun 08 00:33
DaemonFChttp://wasabi.t0x.org/cgi-bin/trac.cgiJun 08 00:34
balzacGood questionJun 08 00:34
balzacis winamp still "whipping the llamas ass"?Jun 08 00:35
balzacI haven't used winamp for yearsJun 08 00:35
DaemonFCIt's a good program with good encoders and lots of useful featuresJun 08 00:35
balzacNow I use SongbirdJun 08 00:35
DaemonFCunusual that AOL hasn't managed to contaminate it to the point of being unusableJun 08 00:36
balzacand it has a llame, archaic licenseJun 08 00:36
DaemonFCthey do that with most things they ownJun 08 00:36
DaemonFCSongbird sucksJun 08 00:36
balzacno, it doesn't suckJun 08 00:36
DaemonFCit's too fucking heavy to do the simple and targeted tasks one should expect in a media playerJun 08 00:36
balzaclanguage, DaemonFCJun 08 00:37
DaemonFCit's more like an entire copy of Firefox that also has media player capabilitiesJun 08 00:37
DaemonFC:PJun 08 00:37
balzacit is based on the gecko engineJun 08 00:37
DaemonFCso it's using 10 times the overhead it should needJun 08 00:37
DaemonFCto do those tasksJun 08 00:37
DaemonFCwasteful and bloatedJun 08 00:37
balzacit's nice, and it's published under the "gold standard" GNU General Public LicenseJun 08 00:38
DaemonFCI tried Songbird, and it was terribleJun 08 00:38
DaemonFCin between crashes I may get it to play a song and use 150 megs of RAM doing soJun 08 00:38
DaemonFCwhat a jokeJun 08 00:38
balzacDaemonFC: you're not exactly a connisseur of software.Jun 08 00:38
balzacyou use windows voluntarily.Jun 08 00:39
balzacI only use it to test my websites in IE versionsJun 08 00:39
balzacnothing else.Jun 08 00:39
DaemonFCright now I have Foobar 2000 playing an M4A file and it is using 46 megs of RAMJun 08 00:39
balzacWindows barely ever sees the light of day on my machine.Jun 08 00:39
DaemonFCnearly a thid of what Songbird needsJun 08 00:39
DaemonFC*thirdJun 08 00:39
balzacon WINDOWSJun 08 00:39
DaemonFCthis has nothing to do with what license songbird is underJun 08 00:40
DaemonFCVLC is open source and it's pretty goodJun 08 00:40
balzacyou use the travesty, the abomination of operating systems.Jun 08 00:40
DaemonFCSongbird just sucks because it sucksJun 08 00:40
balzacI get issues with VLCJun 08 00:40
DaemonFCnothing to do with the license at allJun 08 00:40
balzacI tried a lot of different players, and I'm using SongbirdJun 08 00:40
balzacand it's doing fineJun 08 00:40
DaemonFC I may go download it just to see what they've doneJun 08 00:40
DaemonFCsetup for Songbird is over 4 times larger than Foobar 2000 and over 40% larger than the entire Winamp 5 bundleJun 08 00:42
DaemonFCI clicked run and am waiting on it to loadJun 08 00:42
DaemonFCridiculous startup timeJun 08 00:42
DaemonFCnow Songbird is giving me a EULAJun 08 00:43
DaemonFCafter 20 seconds of nothingJun 08 00:43
balzacsongbird - 55 megs of ramJun 08 00:43
balzacon my machineJun 08 00:43
DaemonFCnow it is asking to download a bunch more stuffJun 08 00:43
DaemonFCso it can be 30 times the size of Foobar 2000Jun 08 00:43
balzacDaemonFC: you're on windows dude.Jun 08 00:44
DaemonFCnow it's asking to spy on meJun 08 00:44
DaemonFCnow it's loadedJun 08 00:44
fewaDaemonFC, you are on windowsJun 08 00:44
balzacDude, you're gettin' a reaming from Microsoft.Jun 08 00:44
DaemonFCobvious iTunes ripoffJun 08 00:44
balzaciTunes can eat an air-biscuit.Jun 08 00:44
DaemonFCnow I load the file I had Foobar 2000 playing with 46 megs of RAMJun 08 00:45
DaemonFCand Songbird it using 83Jun 08 00:45
balzacSongbird is asking to "spy on you"?Jun 08 00:45
DaemonFCheh, they have improved, they're only twice as bloated as they need to beJun 08 00:45
balzacno dude. If songbird were spying, it wouldn't ask. It might have asked you for information, and that's a lot more than you get from Microsoft.Jun 08 00:45
balzacMicrosoft spies.Jun 08 00:46
balzacand changes third party software without asking.Jun 08 00:46
balzacMicrosoft is the sucker's OS.Jun 08 00:46
DaemonFCand Songbird can't encode it seemsJun 08 00:46
balzacI don't need it to encode.Jun 08 00:46
DaemonFCso it's bloated spyware that can't encodeJun 08 00:46
balzacI download most of my music.Jun 08 00:47
balzacno dude, Windows is bloated spyware that can't encode.Jun 08 00:47
fewayour using windows, you are asking for that raw pineapple to be shoved up your assJun 08 00:47
balzacSongbird is an extensible media player.Jun 08 00:47
balzaclolJun 08 00:47
balzacIt's good to have some windows users in here.Jun 08 00:47
fewai guessJun 08 00:48
DaemonFCuninstalled itJun 08 00:48
DaemonFCstill don't like itJun 08 00:48
balzacman, it takes a special kind of guy to sit around and praise windows.Jun 08 00:48
DaemonFCprobably never will be useful to meJun 08 00:48
balzacDaemonFC: you're not a connisseur of software.Jun 08 00:48
balzacif you were, you'd be using something else instead of windows.Jun 08 00:48
DaemonFCI know when I see a piece of featureless bloatwareJun 08 00:48
DaemonFCwhich is what Songbird isJun 08 00:48
balzacwhat's your opinion of Firefox?Jun 08 00:49
fewaDaemonFC alternates between dilling about codecs, praising windows, and trollingJun 08 00:49
DaemonFCbalzac: Firefox is likewise unnecessarily bloatedJun 08 00:50
balzacyeah. well at least he's talking about software instead of making character attacks on people.Jun 08 00:50
DaemonFCthings could be done better and have been by their competitionJun 08 00:50
balzacnot really, DaemonFC.Jun 08 00:50
fewabalzac, absolutely, he does talkJun 08 00:50
DaemonFCit's better than IE and overhypedJun 08 00:50
DaemonFCwhich is why people use itJun 08 00:50
balzacno dude, you're not a web developer, are you?Jun 08 00:50
balzacif you were a web developer, you'd know that Firefox is the best browser.Jun 08 00:50
DaemonFCanyone rooting for Firefox is not rooting for correct implementation of open standardsJun 08 00:51
balzachands down, it's leagues ahead of all other browsers.Jun 08 00:51
fewaDaemonFC, what open standards does firefox not correctly implament?Jun 08 00:51
DaemonFCbecause Firefox has no or limited support for a lot of things that Webkit and Presto have supported for yearsJun 08 00:51
balzacgee, Firefox 3.5 with the video support is quite nice.Jun 08 00:51
balzacPresto, what's that?Jun 08 00:51
DaemonFCOpera's engineJun 08 00:52
fewaDaemonFC, and then start listing all the standards IE fails to supportJun 08 00:52
balzacOpera is proprietary.Jun 08 00:52
balzacI don't care about Presto.Jun 08 00:52
DaemonFCOpera consistently has better standards support than FirefoxJun 08 00:52
fewa<canvas>, <video>, <audio>, css3Jun 08 00:52
fewathe fact that IE8 fails miserably at acid3Jun 08 00:52
balzacOpera is a jokeJun 08 00:52
DaemonFCCSS 3 is draftJun 08 00:52
DaemonFCaudio and video are draftJun 08 00:52
DaemonFCas HTML 5 is draftJun 08 00:52
fewaDaemonFC, but the other browsers all support itJun 08 00:52
DaemonFCso?Jun 08 00:53
balzacWebkit is nice, but the license is the LGPL, IIRC. I prefer the GPL to the LGPL.Jun 08 00:53
DaemonFCit's nice to see them supporting non standardsJun 08 00:53
fewaDaemonFC, and the web is moving aheadJun 08 00:53
balzacfor most thingsJun 08 00:53
balzacAlso, I don't see any webkit-based browsers with all the extensions Firefox has.Jun 08 00:53
balzacso I don't know what 'bloat' you're talking about.Jun 08 00:53
fewaDaemonFC, what about all the breaks in standards in IE 6, 7, 8. all which are not standardizedJun 08 00:53
balzacIE is the worst browser.Jun 08 00:54
balzacIE 6 is the ultimate worst browser.Jun 08 00:54
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fewaIE sucks, hands down.Jun 08 00:54
balzacUsed to be Netscape 4.7 was the worstJun 08 00:54
fewait is designed to hold the internet backJun 08 00:54
balzacbut almost nobody uses Netscape 4.7Jun 08 00:54
balzacnow IE6 is the worst of all browsers.Jun 08 00:54
balzacyepJun 08 00:54
balzacIE is a turd which Microsoft crapped out onto its poor usersJun 08 00:55
fewaand forced them to useJun 08 00:55
balzacOpera is a little turd, a rodent turd.Jun 08 00:55
balzacFirefox is the king of browsers.Jun 08 00:55
balzacthank goodness for the native video support, and using a free codec as well.Jun 08 00:56
balzacFlash, Silverlight, .Net extensions - these are browser parasites.Jun 08 00:57
balzacSoon to be cured by the video support in FFJun 08 00:57
balzacAJAX, DHTML, SVG, native video - these will likely eliminate the niche for embedded media playersJun 08 00:58
balzac3D will be the last frontierJun 08 00:58
balzacPapervision 3d in the flash player still has something not in the browserJun 08 00:58
balzaceventually though, the browser will render 3D content as wellJun 08 00:59
balzacand Microsoft doesn't embrace open standards, so they'll be on the outside, looking in.Jun 08 00:59
balzacBill Gates is painting Microsoft into a corner.Jun 08 01:00
ghindoBill Gates doesn't work for Microsoft anymore...Jun 08 01:00
balzacAll because he can't admit that open standards are important and modern software licensing is importantJun 08 01:00
balzacghindo: he does.Jun 08 01:00
balzacnot officially, but he acts on behalf of microsoftJun 08 01:00
balzacand Gates' stubborn refusal to admit his error on software licensing will be the undoing of Microsoft.Jun 08 01:01
balzacIf Gates could just admit, his "open letter to hobbyists" was lame, Microsoft could adjust to modern software licensing and open standardsJun 08 01:01
balzacbut instead, Microsoft wants to act like a big bawling, sweating, tyrantJun 08 01:02
balzacand they'll become the punchlineJun 08 01:03
DaemonFCso much for FLAC being error resistantJun 08 01:03
DaemonFCnow I have to see if I can dump it into WAV and salvage the fileJun 08 01:03
balzacDaemonFC: but who cares?Jun 08 01:03
balzacyou should be twittering thisJun 08 01:04
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balzacTell us about using software which mattersJun 08 01:04
DaemonFCthe people at Xiph who claim that an error in FLAC will only corupt about a tenth of a second of data or lessJun 08 01:04
DaemonFCwhich is obviously falseJun 08 01:04
yuhongBTW, what do BN think of Mac now?Jun 08 01:05
balzacDaemonFC: I don't have confidence in your ability to troubleshoot and find the cause of the problemJun 08 01:05
yuhongApple is a control freak.Jun 08 01:06
balzacMicrosoft is worse in that regard.Jun 08 01:06
DaemonFCthe problem is the file is 4 minutes 15 seconds, the error occurs at 3:57 and FLAC jsut fucks up and stops thereJun 08 01:06
ghindoDaemonFC: Have you asked for help on #vorbis?Jun 08 01:06
yuhongDon't forget that most switching to Mac came from Windows.Jun 08 01:07
yuhongSteve Jobs is also a control freak as well.Jun 08 01:07
balzacIf I were a CEO of an IT company, I'd be a control freak.Jun 08 01:08
yuhongI think switching to Mac from Windows is a good thing, and I think schestowitz agrees.Jun 08 01:08
balzacIt's a step in the right directionJun 08 01:08
fewafreedom is not a choice of mastersJun 08 01:08
balzacand it takes away from the monopolistJun 08 01:08
yuhongMany are doing it.Jun 08 01:08
balzacfewa: you're rightJun 08 01:08
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schestowitzRichard Dawkins blasts Blair: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xbza-UtseE0&feature=channelJun 08 01:09
fewabut OSX actually implements many industry standards, so in that way its better than windowsJun 08 01:09
balzacBut if Apple can help consume Microsoft's marketshare, that may have strategic value.Jun 08 01:09
twitterKeep thinking, yuhong.Jun 08 01:09
balzacThink even more differently.Jun 08 01:09
yuhongfewa: In fact, I already said that Apple do not provide any more freedom than MS.Jun 08 01:09
balzacGNU/Linux is where its going.Jun 08 01:09
fewafor example, by coming with X11, UNIX conformance, and real programming languages by defaultJun 08 01:10
yuhongIn fact, my school almost exclusively use Macs.Jun 08 01:10
balzacwell, BASH is the default shell on OSX.Jun 08 01:10
DaemonFChmmm, AAC seems to haqve no trouble with any of my Queen collectionJun 08 01:10
DaemonFC:)Jun 08 01:10
yuhongShorewood High SchoolJun 08 01:10
twitterit is silly to talk about "more freedom" there are only more restrictions.  Neither M$ nor Apple provide freedom.Jun 08 01:10
schestowitzfewa: I'll change my video templateJun 08 01:10
balzacfewer restrictionsJun 08 01:10
balzacthat's the right language to describe Apple relative to MicrosoftJun 08 01:10
yuhongtwitter: True, freedom is not an advantage of Apple.Jun 08 01:11
twitterBoth reserve the right to terminate your computer at any time.Jun 08 01:11
balzacBut, nevertheless, if I had a new Macbook, the first thing I'd do is wipe the hard drive.Jun 08 01:11
balzacNext, I'd put Ubuntu on it.Jun 08 01:11
twitterI like trackpoints, so I would not like a Mac.Jun 08 01:12
fewaand cover up the logo with a nice TuX sticker, or other FOSS stickerJun 08 01:12
balzacMaybe I'd put an OSX Gnome theme on it and sell itJun 08 01:12
balzacthey'd think it was appleJun 08 01:12
fewabalzac, i bet you could convince many peopleJun 08 01:12
balzacPut SongbirdJun 08 01:13
balzacyepJun 08 01:13
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balzacand they'd probably be better off, unless they wanted to edit video, or something.Jun 08 01:13
twittercinerella, kino and blender do video well.Jun 08 01:13
balzacyeah, but if they're a power user, that's not going to be enoughJun 08 01:14
balzacblender is awesomeJun 08 01:14
yuhongIn fact, you can dual boot Mac OS X and Linux using Boot Camp or even better rEFIt.Jun 08 01:14
balzacbut maybe they really need final cut pro or else they can't pay their rentJun 08 01:14
balzacthat's why I don't use rich media work as my bread and butterJun 08 01:14
balzacI've turned my attention to web development and systems administration so I don't have to depend on the rich media applications which are free softwareJun 08 01:15
balzacI still use the rich media apps, but at my leisureJun 08 01:15
twitterHollywood does well with free software, you can too.Jun 08 01:15
yuhongYep, Macs are common in media.Jun 08 01:15
twitterI would not want to do it for a living.Jun 08 01:15
balzactwitter: I've done some great modelling in BlenderJun 08 01:15
balzacI use GIMP every dayJun 08 01:16
balzacgimp, emacs, bash, firefox, firebugJun 08 01:16
twitterbetween that and inkscape, I think free software has media down.Jun 08 01:16
balzaci use inkscapeJun 08 01:16
balzacalso mysql query builder, meld diff viewerJun 08 01:16
DaemonFCMacs are good with mediaJun 08 01:17
DaemonFCI'll give them thatJun 08 01:17
twitterPeople at M$ use Macs for their ad copy.Jun 08 01:17
balzactwitter: inkscape needs more work. it's very nice though.Jun 08 01:17
balzactwitter: just goes to show, microsoft takes very little pride in their software.Jun 08 01:17
balzacIf I had a budget like Microsoft for software development, I'd take the leading GPL-licensed apps and improve them.Jun 08 01:18
DaemonFCFLAC is probably the most useful thing regarding media that has come from open sourceJun 08 01:18
balzacAlso, I'd get the GNU Hurd project movingJun 08 01:18
twitterIf you want to move the Hurd, by all means do.Jun 08 01:18
balzacDaemonFC: there are too many useful things to name coming as free softwareJun 08 01:19
balzacIt's great to be on the alpha teamJun 08 01:19
balzacand to know you're using the best software every dayJun 08 01:20
twitterI'd go as far as to say that all good software is or was once free software.Jun 08 01:20
balzacDaemonFC: you're welcome to use a right and proper operating sytemJun 08 01:20
balzacsystemJun 08 01:20
DaemonFCLinux is perpetually alphaJun 08 01:20
twitterWindows is perpetually broken.Jun 08 01:20
balzacDaemonFC: what drives you to criticize the best OS, and to continue to use the worst OS?Jun 08 01:21
balzacI'm curious to knowJun 08 01:21
twitterMoney, it's a crime...Jun 08 01:21
fewaDaemonFC, me tooJun 08 01:21
DaemonFCbecuase Ubuntu is far too buggy to useJun 08 01:21
balzacprobably you have too much time on your handsJun 08 01:21
yuhongbelzac: In face, IMO, neither is true!Jun 08 01:21
fewaDaemonFC, bullshitJun 08 01:21
balzacyuhong: ?Jun 08 01:21
DaemonFCI can't do any audio related stuff on Jaunty because Jaunty is brokenJun 08 01:21
DaemonFCand requires me to compile myt own kernel and PulseaudioJun 08 01:21
balzacGNU/Linux is the best, Microsoft Windows is the worst. Who disagrees?Jun 08 01:22
twitterWhy don't you try another distro?Jun 08 01:22
fewaIve had said this in this channel many times, I have installed ubuntu on many systems, and everything just works. sound, keyboard shortcuts, wifiJun 08 01:22
DaemonFCbeen over thisJun 08 01:22
balzacDaemonFC: yeah, luckily I'm a web developerJun 08 01:22
twitterOr get hardware that's not so crap.Jun 08 01:22
balzacaudio sucks on GNU/LinuxJun 08 01:22
DaemonFCFAAC is too flakyJun 08 01:22
fewatry that with windows and you would spend a full day getting drivers, and it would be slow and insecureJun 08 01:22
balzacBut I'm confident we'll have the best in due time.Jun 08 01:22
twitterbalzac?  audio on GNU/Linux rocksJun 08 01:22
yuhongI mean, neither is Linux is perpetually alpha, nor is Windows is perpetually broken.Jun 08 01:22
balzactwitter: that hasn't been my experience.Jun 08 01:23
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fewapeople who say that GNU/Linux is not ready for the desktop are insaneJun 08 01:23
DaemonFCif Microsoft ever shipped a version of Windows in the state that the current Ubuntu is inJun 08 01:23
balzacbut I wouldn't use another OS for audio, I'd use GNU/Linux for audio.Jun 08 01:23
twitterGNU/Linux sound systems have the ability to share devices between programs and do all sorts of other nice tricks.Jun 08 01:23
yuhongAgreed.Jun 08 01:23
DaemonFCthey'd never live that downJun 08 01:23
yuhongYep.Jun 08 01:23
yuhongBut Windows is not broken either.Jun 08 01:23
DaemonFCJaunty is so broken it would make Microsoft blush to release something like itJun 08 01:23
_GoblindaemonFC: lol...Vista?Jun 08 01:23
yuhongNeither is Linux.Jun 08 01:23
twitterM$ shipped Vista, FCJun 08 01:23
fewavistaidsJun 08 01:24
DaemonFCno, I'd say Vista is better than JauntyJun 08 01:24
_Goblinor what about ME?Jun 08 01:24
balzactwitter: that's good, but the rich media on GNU/Linux suffers because M$ has been subsidizing hardware makers to keep their drivers proprietaryJun 08 01:24
twitterYou would, FC.Jun 08 01:24
DaemonFCbecause the audio doesn't have all kinds of distortionJun 08 01:24
yuhongI know!Jun 08 01:24
DaemonFCUbuntu currently doesJun 08 01:24
balzacso there's still a gap in hardware compatibility for high-end video and audio chipsetsJun 08 01:24
_Goblinmoving on to other hardware..... xbox 360?Jun 08 01:24
DaemonFCIw will probably never use Ubuntu againJun 08 01:24
fewaDaemonFC, vista audio is completely broken. It is a 100% software stank, doesnt supoprt 24bit audioJun 08 01:24
DaemonFCjust because of thatJun 08 01:24
balzacalso, I get "media core" errors now and thenJun 08 01:24
twitterit's true, balzac, that you have to be careful when you buy hardware.Jun 08 01:24
DaemonFCfewa: Vista supports 24-bitJun 08 01:24
fewaDaemonFC, and the audio hardware support of vista is abysmallJun 08 01:25
balzacIt's a good thing I don't make my living with rich media, because it would be harder for me than it would be using OSXJun 08 01:25
fewafor example the whole creative line doesnt workJun 08 01:25
DaemonFCsupports everything I haveJun 08 01:25
twitterbut a working sound card will do more for you longer with free software than with windows.Jun 08 01:25
twitterM$ supports FC's life.Jun 08 01:25
fewaall the Live 5.1 cards, even current embedded cards by Nvidia, etcJun 08 01:25
yuhongfewa: I know.Jun 08 01:25
balzacit's good to know that it's bad for VistaJun 08 01:25
fewaall dont work with vistaJun 08 01:25
balzacthat gives me more confidence that hardware manufacturers will come over to our sideJun 08 01:26
twitterIn fact M$ just stabbed Creative in the back by destroying their sound system.Jun 08 01:26
twitterYou can't use their old drivers on Vista.Jun 08 01:26
yuhongI know!Jun 08 01:26
fewatwitter, and you have to pay microsoft for the "priviliage" of making any windows driverJun 08 01:26
fewareal cash for a signing certificate, or windows will refuse to load itJun 08 01:26
twitterno thanksJun 08 01:26
DaemonFCfewa: http://img19.imageshack.us/img19/5011/30543865.pngJun 08 01:27
balzacyou know what's weird? why don't I have a graphical equalizer?Jun 08 01:27
yuhongI read Larry Osterman's blog and he now works on Vista sound.Jun 08 01:27
DaemonFC24-bit 192,000 HzJun 08 01:27
DaemonFCis Vista's limitJun 08 01:27
balzacI could have sworn I once had an equalizer on GNU/LinuxJun 08 01:27
yuhongPay Microsoft? More like paying VeriSign for a certificate.Jun 08 01:27
DaemonFCwhich far exceeds any CDJun 08 01:27
DaemonFCand vinylJun 08 01:27
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fewayuhong, it has to be a special certificateJun 08 01:28
DaemonFCVista will even upsample CDs to 24-bit 48,000 Hz if you want it toJun 08 01:28
fewaDaemonFC, that doesnt do anythingJun 08 01:28
yuhongYes, but as I remember you generated that cert without paying MS.Jun 08 01:28
balzacyeah, that's sillyJun 08 01:28
balzacif you want the same data to take up more space...Jun 08 01:29
yuhonghttp://www.microsoft.com/whdc/winlogo/drvsign/crosscert.mspxJun 08 01:29
DaemonFCanything over 16-bit 44,100 Hz, you're masturbatingJun 08 01:29
DaemonFCseriouslyJun 08 01:29
DaemonFC:)Jun 08 01:29
yuhongIn fact, I read posts on Larry's blog on Vista audio.Jun 08 01:29
DaemonFCunless you have a vinyl record that you are playingJun 08 01:30
fewaDaemonFC, yes, but some sound cards use 24-bit onlyJun 08 01:30
DaemonFCor source material that hasn't been converted to CD yetJun 08 01:30
DaemonFCaudio actually loses a lot when you put it on CDJun 08 01:31
DaemonFCso even calling CDs lossless is giving them way too much creditJun 08 01:31
balzacyeah, CDs are not as rich as they ought to beJun 08 01:31
balzacI'd prefer to get all my music in higher quality formatJun 08 01:31
DaemonFCin fact, the limitations in the CD are why lossy codecs seem to be so effectiveJun 08 01:31
balzacI'm looking forward to lossless codecs for all my mediaJun 08 01:32
yuhongApple actually do provide fewer restrictions than MS but what I meant was that that was not generally used to sell Macs over Windows.Jun 08 01:32
DaemonFCthey can mark the noise floor and drop everything below itJun 08 01:32
DaemonFCthat gets you a lot of saved space right thereJun 08 01:32
DaemonFCthat's where a lot of the compression comes fromJun 08 01:32
yuhongBTW, in fact I think the entire Shoreline School District use Macs.Jun 08 01:32
yuhongI was going to say this before but forgot.Jun 08 01:33
DaemonFCyou'd be surprised how much noise you can drop without affecting how the audio stream soundsJun 08 01:33
DaemonFCFLAC compresses it instead of dropping itJun 08 01:33
balzacgoodJun 08 01:33
DaemonFCwithout the noise, FLAC could be slightly smaller than a 320k MP3Jun 08 01:33
balzacI'm happy to have the dataJun 08 01:33
twitterFC, I don't think you know what you are talking about.Jun 08 01:34
balzacI'd rather not have someone else decide which data is worth keepingJun 08 01:34
DaemonFCit makes no sense at all to encode that noise ans randomnessJun 08 01:34
DaemonFCwhen all it does is use spaceJun 08 01:34
balzacI might hear something in that "noise" which I could useJun 08 01:34
balzacit depends on the sampling rateJun 08 01:34
balzacsupposing I choose to take a sample and time-stretch it, that detail could be useful to me.Jun 08 01:35
DaemonFCwhich is why you should make a pass on the WAV file with lossyWAV before using FLACJun 08 01:35
balzacI don't want a lossy compression formatJun 08 01:35
balzacFLAC wouldn't be lossless if they threw away dataJun 08 01:35
DaemonFCyou'll be a lot happier with the resulting file sizeJun 08 01:35
yuhongI think this one is much more constructive and better than Surface:Jun 08 01:35
balzacI'll use FLACJun 08 01:35
balzacbased on you recommending WAV, I'll choose FLACJun 08 01:35
yuhonghttp://blogs.msdn.com/larryosterman/archive/2007/08/02/hey-my-custom-shutdown-sound-got-cut-off-or-didn-t-play-what-s-up.aspxJun 08 01:35
balzacjk, not just based on thatJun 08 01:35
balzacbut what you choose, I would probably choose what software you think is worstJun 08 01:36
balzacand consistently, I'd be using the best.Jun 08 01:36
DaemonFCAAC at 0.60 VBR can replicate the CD pretty well and the files will tend to be 5-8 megs eachJun 08 01:36
DaemonFCto get equal performance from Vorbis, you have to up the bitrateJun 08 01:37
yuhongAlso this one: http://blogs.msdn.com/larryosterman/archive/2007/08/28/windows-vista-sound-causes-network-throughput-slowdowns.aspxJun 08 01:37
DaemonFCand end up with files that are 10-12 megsJun 08 01:37
twitterlossy compression of music involves dropping frequencies.  It's based on people's inability to concentrate on many things at once.Jun 08 01:37
DaemonFCobviouslyJun 08 01:37
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DaemonFCbut choosing what to throw away is the trickJun 08 01:37
twitteryesJun 08 01:37
twitterbut it's a perception thingJun 08 01:38
yuhongYep.Jun 08 01:38
twitterafter you go through the transforms, you are left asking people, "how does that sound."Jun 08 01:38
DaemonFCyeah, which is why people that insist on lossless kind of aggravate meJun 08 01:38
DaemonFClossless is OK if you need source material to compress to your choice of formatJun 08 01:38
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DaemonFCbeyond that it doesn't matterJun 08 01:39
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twittergoing from lossy to lossy is not a good idea.  That's why it's good to have lossless original.Jun 08 01:39
balzacI use lossy compression because I'm pragmatic. But I like to use "non-destructive" editing methods, and always keep my source files.Jun 08 01:39
DaemonFCwhich is what I just saidJun 08 01:39
yuhongWhat do you think about the iTunes music "PR stunt" now that Apple got DRM-free music in exchange for tiered pricing?Jun 08 01:39
balzacI'd prefer to have the highest resolution for all my source filesJun 08 01:39
balzacI'm glad that FLAC does it how they do it.Jun 08 01:40
yuhongI don't think it is just a PR stunt, I think it was important.Jun 08 01:40
DaemonFCI think iTunes is ridiculous jsut for using CRB filesJun 08 01:40
DaemonFCthey could use VBR and get just as good quality with 30% or so less file sizeJun 08 01:40
DaemonFCbut they want to fill up your iPodJun 08 01:40
twitterI think that people should avoid platforms with restrictions, yuhong.  A good deal today a the mercy of an owner is a bad deal tomorrow.Jun 08 01:40
DaemonFCnot give you files that make senseJun 08 01:40
DaemonFC*CBRJun 08 01:40
yuhongThe iPhone's restrictions are well known, BTW.Jun 08 01:41
twitterA restricted platform can and will take all of your music away from you.Jun 08 01:41
yuhongYep, remember the DRM server shutdowns?Jun 08 01:41
twitterThere are many, mostly on the M$ side.  I do not think Apple has failed yet.Jun 08 01:41
DaemonFCI will never pay for any music that has a DRM tag on itJun 08 01:42
twitterIt does not matter, both will fail the user one day.Jun 08 01:42
DaemonFC_NEVER_Jun 08 01:42
taconeitunes is drm free ... for music.Jun 08 01:42
twitterthat's a good starting point, FCJun 08 01:42
DaemonFCyeah, but that takes me back to CBRJun 08 01:42
yuhongSo do Woody, which called it C.R.A.P. music.Jun 08 01:42
DaemonFCwhich wastes your storage space on your portableJun 08 01:43
twitterwhy would you use software with restrictions?Jun 08 01:43
twitterIsn't the software that serves you news and gets your work done more important than music?Jun 08 01:43
yuhongBut my real question is, now that Apple got all of it's music DRM-free, do you think the "PR stunt" was just that in retrospect?Jun 08 01:43
yuhongI think it was important.Jun 08 01:43
yuhongWell, restrictions on software aren't exactly the same as restrictions on music.Jun 08 01:44
balzacDaemonFC: you do not know the POWAH of FREE SOFTWARE.Jun 08 01:44
splosionyuhong: It was probably a reaction to other places selling non-DRM music. Apple didn't want to lose customers to Amazon or other placesJun 08 01:44
twitterI did not know the music was restriction free.  If it can only be played on a restricted platform it is restricted music.Jun 08 01:44
DaemonFCAll Ubuntu is are other people making all your sdecisions for youJun 08 01:44
DaemonFCthat by itself isn't a compelling reason to switch from anythingJun 08 01:45
balzac?Jun 08 01:45
balzacno dude.Jun 08 01:45
DaemonFCthey want you to encode to Vorbis so they make it difficult or impossible to encode to other formatsJun 08 01:45
DaemonFCby breaking the encodersJun 08 01:45
yuhongBut Ubuntu lets you change these decisions, they are just the default.Jun 08 01:45
DaemonFCit's all still a system of controlJun 08 01:45
balzacDaemonFC: you are ignorantJun 08 01:45
splosionwhat's your alternative, DaemonFC ?Jun 08 01:46
balzacControl is important, so I keep it.Jun 08 01:46
yuhongspolosion: That certainly helped, too.Jun 08 01:46
balzacDaemonFC uses windowsJun 08 01:46
yuhongSo do I.Jun 08 01:46
balzacapparently, he prefers it.Jun 08 01:46
yuhongI like Macs and Linux as well and don't think it is bad.Jun 08 01:46
DaemonFCfree alternatives don't exist to do a lot of the things I use my computer forJun 08 01:46
balzacyuhong: as your primary OS?Jun 08 01:46
DaemonFCunfortunatelyJun 08 01:46
twitterFC is just trolling.Jun 08 01:46
balzacwindows is bad for your mind.Jun 08 01:47
twitteravoiding a few simple questions by changing the subject to, "I hate Ubuntu"Jun 08 01:47
fewatwitter, Apple has continuously updated firmwares and software to lock out rivalsJun 08 01:47
DaemonFCyesJun 08 01:47
DaemonFCand Apple does the firmware updates unannouncedJun 08 01:47
fewafor example, by including a hash in the iPod music database to force people to use iTunesJun 08 01:47
DaemonFCand without your permissionJun 08 01:48
DaemonFCwhen you sync the thing using iTunesJun 08 01:48
yuhongWell, my school uses Macs, the computer I am using runs Vista, another runs Ubuntu, the rest mostly run 2000, with one having dual-boot to XP>Jun 08 01:48
splosionwell, "Ubuntu controls its users, so I'm going to use an OS that controls them even more!" does not make a compelling argumentJun 08 01:48
twitterlolJun 08 01:48
fewasplosion, wat?Jun 08 01:48
DaemonFCif I want to use a format that's better and better supportedJun 08 01:48
twittereven if it was trueJun 08 01:48
balzacubuntu is based on the venerable Debian GNU and Linux operating systemJun 08 01:48
twitterit's stupidJun 08 01:48
balzacUbuntu is pretty niceJun 08 01:48
DaemonFCthey have no right to steer me towards one that doesn't work that I don't want to useJun 08 01:48
yuhongParticularly when Ubuntu don't really control it's user, they just set defaults.Jun 08 01:48
balzacyeahJun 08 01:48
fewaand then apple misuses the DMCA to try to force people to accept the lock -out anti-competitive behaviorJun 08 01:49
balzacyou can change your repositoriesJun 08 01:49
balzacDaemonFC is confused.Jun 08 01:49
balzaccontrol means I get to do what I want.Jun 08 01:49
yuhongfewa: I know.Jun 08 01:49
DaemonFCyes, Apple makes inferior players, charges too much for them, and alters your firmware without permission\Jun 08 01:49
twitterYou have every right to make your computer do what you want, FC, and none to demand that others make it work for you.  You just happen to be in luck, though.  With thousands of distros, there is surely one for you.Jun 08 01:49
DaemonFCwhich is why I won't use iPodJun 08 01:49
fewaDaemonFC is very confusedJun 08 01:49
DaemonFCthere are better alternativesJun 08 01:49
balzacIf you use Windows, you're being controlled. If you're using GNU/Linux, you can have full control.Jun 08 01:50
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splosiona lot of linux advocates and wintrolls both make the mistake of thinking that running linux is an all or nothing decision. it's not. nothing in life is as absolute as that. it's not a crime to dual-boot y'knowJun 08 01:50
balzacBut GNU/Linux hasn't yet caught up to the finicky requirements of artsy fartsy types yetJun 08 01:50
balzacbut it's getting thereJun 08 01:50
DaemonFCartsy fartsy? I just want to use a format that a bargain bin MP3 player supportsJun 08 01:51
taconelike drm in the kernel :PJun 08 01:51
fewasplosion, yep, they think its a religion where you have to worship a indiffernt wrathful god, while GNU/Linux can show them the beuty of free religionJun 08 01:51
splosionbalzac: that's the long tail. 90% of users' needs are satisfied in linux. The needs of photoshoppers and autocad users etc will come eventuallyJun 08 01:51
DaemonFCor for that matter, even let me listen to music on my integrated Intel HDA audioJun 08 01:51
fewaof free control, and choiceJun 08 01:51
balzacsplosion: indeedJun 08 01:51
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DaemonFCI'm not artsy fartsy, but having it work would be niceJun 08 01:51
yuhongspolosion: Yep, dual boot is easy as long as you know partitioning.Jun 08 01:52
balzacDaemonFC: anyone who specializes in rich media is an "artsy fartsy" type, in my use of the phrase.Jun 08 01:52
Carl_Rover2k12DaemonFC: is an artsy fartsy person, hahahahaJun 08 01:52
DaemonFCI'm pissed that they broke the audio system, and shipped it that wayJun 08 01:52
fewaDaemonFC is also a codec egg-headJun 08 01:52
balzacunless they're doing scientific visualization, folding protein molecules or weather patterns. That can be rich media without being creative.Jun 08 01:52
Carl_Rover2k12balzac: do you hate ergonomics?Jun 08 01:52
twitterpeople who can utter complete sentences or otherwise express themselves is too smart for meJun 08 01:52
balzacnope, I pay special attention to ergonomicsJun 08 01:53
balzacBut check out the advertisements for Adobe Creative SuiteJun 08 01:53
balzacyou're got to be an arsty-fart for those ads to appeal to you.Jun 08 01:53
Carl_Rover2k12balzac: which adds?Jun 08 01:53
splosionartsy fartsy with a shedload of cash, you meanJun 08 01:53
balzacyeahJun 08 01:53
twitterthe ones where people have gassJun 08 01:53
balzacCarl_Rover2k12: you might find them on youtubeJun 08 01:54
fewasplosion, yarp, and ready to step on the upgrade treadmillJun 08 01:54
yuhongApple premotes Boot Camp for dual-boot with Windows.Jun 08 01:54
DaemonFCit doesn't really make a lot of sense to buy a sound card unless you're going to spend upwards of $200Jun 08 01:54
DaemonFCthe integrated ones are a lot better than they used to beJun 08 01:54
fewaI use a apple keyboard and love it.Jun 08 01:54
Carl_Rover2k12balzac: I could find ads from countless businesses on Youtube, which business are you referring to?Jun 08 01:54
balzacadobe creative suite advertisementsJun 08 01:55
balzac"adobe creative license"Jun 08 01:55
balzacthat particular phrase sounds a bit obnoxious to meJun 08 01:55
balzacafter 10 years of photoshop, I bailed out and now I use GIMP.Jun 08 01:55
balzacbecause they cling to archaic licensesJun 08 01:55
twitterThe people from the audio company should sueJun 08 01:55
Carl_Rover2k12fewa: I really don't find what the fuss is behind a keyboard layout, all are standard QWERTY with with Alt to the left of Ctrl and an Fn key for notebooksJun 08 01:55
fewayou need a "licence" to be creativeJun 08 01:55
Carl_Rover2k12fewa: deciding between an Apple/Command logo vs Windows is personal prefferenceJun 08 01:56
twitteryou need a license to use your computer, if you have the wrong softwareJun 08 01:56
yuhongYep.Jun 08 01:56
splosionI use the windows button for lots of compiz shortcuts. the windows button can do something useful. shock horrorJun 08 01:56
fewaCarl_Rover2k12, thats not the issue, the keyboard is a standards-compliant 105-key PC keyboard.(usb) However, it is ergonomically superior.Jun 08 01:56
Carl_Rover2k12fewa: I could declare I like the Comodore Amiga keyboards because I like how that "A" button looks next to the Alt and SpacebarJun 08 01:56
balzacsplosion: at least put some black tape over the logoJun 08 01:57
splosionhahaJun 08 01:57
balzacor don't tell us you push that particular buttonJun 08 01:57
balzacjkJun 08 01:57
Carl_Rover2k12fewa: Apple keys on notebooks are also more likely to warp, wear out and fall off because of that soft feelJun 08 01:57
fewaapple keyboards are identical to windows keyboards except the "win key" is renamedJun 08 01:57
balzacapple keyboards lack the backspace keyJun 08 01:57
fewaCarl_Rover2k12, its not one of those, its the alluminum oneJun 08 01:57
balzaci like backspace and deleteJun 08 01:57
Carl_Rover2k12fewa: also people praise IBM/Lenovo keyboards for their egonomicsJun 08 01:57
fewabalzac, they have one, its just not called backspaceJun 08 01:57
balzacand i'd like a third button for smiting textJun 08 01:57
balzackilling isn't always enoughJun 08 01:57
ThistleWebisn't the ketboard the only way to eject the cd on Apples?Jun 08 01:58
splosioni'm annoyed that a lot of laptops bury some really useful keys under fn-combos. Home, page up, insert. makes coding on them horribleJun 08 01:58
yuhongYep.Jun 08 01:58
taconefewa: macbook keyboards lack delete and prntScrnJun 08 01:58
Carl_Rover2k12fewa: I find those too flatJun 08 01:58
balzacmac keyboards leave me coldJun 08 01:58
Carl_Rover2k12fewa: the keys have barely any depthJun 08 01:58
balzacif anyone wants the best keyboard, i will tell you what it isJun 08 01:58
fewaCarl_Rover2k12, anyways, i just like typing on this specific alluminum keyboard, and am not commenting on any other keyboards, or trying to spread my beliefJun 08 01:58
taconethe win keyboard. only 3 keys.Jun 08 01:58
Carl_Rover2k12balzac: any PC keyboard from the 486 time and before?Jun 08 01:58
Carl_Rover2k12balzac: seriously I feel keyboards have been getting worse over the yearsJun 08 01:59
fewahttp://www.theonion.com/content/video/apple_introduces_revolutionary <--best apple keyboardJun 08 01:59
yuhongWhen I try to manually cause a crash using Windows using Right Ctrl-Scroll Lock, I have to hold down Fn to gain access on my laptop.Jun 08 01:59
balzachttp://www.maltron.com/maltron-kbd-dual.htmlJun 08 01:59
balzacThe maltron keyboardJun 08 01:59
balzacwith Karl Fogel's key-bindings for programmersJun 08 01:59
fewaCarl_Rover2k12, the light touch is nice when you get use to it, it enables faster lighter typing.Jun 08 02:00
balzacCarl_Rover2k12: yes they have been getting worseJun 08 02:00
yuhongDon't forget Unicomp.Jun 08 02:00
yuhonghttp://www.pckeyboard.com/Jun 08 02:00
DaemonFCthanks to Family Guy I think of God riding a space motorcycle everytime I hear Flash by QueenJun 08 02:00
DaemonFCugggghJun 08 02:00
balzacfewa: light touch probably causes more carpel tunnel syndromeJun 08 02:00
fewaCarl_Rover2k12, also im a former string player so i have dexterity and suchJun 08 02:00
Carl_Rover2k12balzac: they seem to be really specialized... some look like a Macbook Titanium after it meltedJun 08 02:00
fewabalzac, i have had carpel tunnel and this keyboard is the best for my handsJun 08 02:00
balzacokJun 08 02:01
balzacwell I favor bigger motions for less strainJun 08 02:01
fewayou do have to support your own wrists howeverJun 08 02:01
balzacless micro-muscle control, grosser movement = less strainJun 08 02:01
Carl_Rover2k12balzac: actually the one with the two indented sides looks confortableJun 08 02:01
fewabalzac, not neccicarilyJun 08 02:01
balzacso set your mouse to be slower, move your hand more, less strainJun 08 02:01
fewasome people need lots of movement to promote the right usage, but if you have the right dexterith you dont need thatJun 08 02:01
balzacfewa: i'm no expert, but that's my theoryJun 08 02:01
fewaIMHOJun 08 02:01
balzacI want more resistance and deeper key-strokesJun 08 02:02
fewabut i do need to strengthen my hands, i have putty for thatJun 08 02:02
splosionlol @ theonion link, fewaJun 08 02:02
DaemonFCoh my godJun 08 02:03
DaemonFCWindows Live Messenger truncates file names like DOS didJun 08 02:03
splosionewwJun 08 02:03
taconenice ! who needs tinyurl ?Jun 08 02:04
fewasplosion, great apple innovation :PJun 08 02:04
balzacDaemonFC likes grossing people out with his live twitter feed of Microsoft usageJun 08 02:04
splosionI wish Google would hurry up with Wave alreadyJun 08 02:04
twitterWind River was bought by Intel?  Wow.Jun 08 02:04
balzacit's like a guy who likes to wear a hair-shirt in the hot summer, and the says "oh how it itches!"Jun 08 02:04
twitterI'm not sure that's good for Wind River or free software.Jun 08 02:04
yuhongWhich made me ask this question.Jun 08 02:05
twitterThey could be buying them out to shut them down.Jun 08 02:05
fewasplosion, hell yeah, wave looks awesomeJun 08 02:05
DaemonFCthat would be awesomeJun 08 02:06
fewasplosion, and release the specs so there can be a FOSS, federated client/serverJun 08 02:06
DaemonFCWind River makes crapJun 08 02:06
yuhongWell, Intel is still friendly with open source despite the fact that MS tried to bully Intel several times.Jun 08 02:06
splosionyupJun 08 02:06
fewaand add on to pidgin, etcJun 08 02:06
splosioni'm hoping that the ubiquity of Wave will convince other developers thinking about making yet more proprietary crap like Silverlight to reconsiderJun 08 02:08
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fewawave will force people to upgrade to what google calls a "modern brower", ie every browser but internet explorerJun 08 02:09
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fewaand that will be great for the webJun 08 02:09
ThistleWebIE 8 will be classed as a "modern browser", so will IE 7 in all liklihoodJun 08 02:10
fewaThistleWeb, IE 8 is not modern, it does not support <canvas>, <video>, <audio>, css3, and does not pass acid3Jun 08 02:11
ThistleWebas much as I hate IE, Google are never gonna cut off a HUGE portion of users who don't know betterJun 08 02:11
fewaIE 8 might be alot better than 6 and 7, but it far behind firefox, webkit, and operaJun 08 02:11
ThistleWebthey will accept the latest IEJun 08 02:11
splosionyeah. the world is ever so slowly moving to open standards. I think stuff like Wave is a shot in the arm for continuing that trend. so long IEJun 08 02:11
fewaThistleWeb, it will be a lesser experience, but they will continue to promote firefox and chrome, and show that those browsers can give them more, and fasterJun 08 02:12
ThistleWebit's one thing to not waste time putting IE quirks so it may look funky, it's something else to deny them altogetherJun 08 02:12
twitterGoogle is not going to cut off anyone, they will simply be required to download software - happens in Windoze all the time.Jun 08 02:13
ThistleWebusing IE is a lesser experience full stopJun 08 02:13
splosionThistleWeb: Google might pull out the stops to support IE, but others won't. for once IE-users will be seeing "This site requires Firefox/Safari/Chrome to run properly"Jun 08 02:13
ThistleWebbut some dont know any betterJun 08 02:13
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ThistleWebsplosion, that'd be a great thing, give Microsoft a taste of their own medicine, but for technical not profit / market share reasonsJun 08 02:14
twitterYou can no more say Google is cutting off users than you can say Adobe is.Jun 08 02:14
twitterBoth are using published standardsJun 08 02:14
twitterM$ can play if they want to.Jun 08 02:14
fewaThistleWeb, they would only be degrading for inferior browsersJun 08 02:14
fewaThistleWeb, microsoft has cut people off for no reason at allJun 08 02:15
ThistleWebif you're denying people the use of your software on their prefered browser then you are denying themJun 08 02:15
Carl_Rover2k12fewa: such as no hybrid or full SSD for Windows 7 Starter EditionJun 08 02:15
twitterIt's not that they are degrading for IE, it's that they will no longer limit themselves to M$'s shortfallsJun 08 02:15
ThistleWebwith adobe we're talking plugins to instal on your browserJun 08 02:15
twitterBasically, they are going to do what http canJun 08 02:15
fewaThistleWeb, but if that browser cannot support such features you will give a woorse experience, and tell your users that there is a better worldJun 08 02:15
twitterIt is perverse that so many companies have let IE drag down the service they offer to everyone.Jun 08 02:16
ThistleWebthe sooner IE dies the better, but I can't see any large company saying "hey if you wanna stick with IE, sorry, we don't want you"Jun 08 02:16
twitterIt's about time people started to ignore IE.Jun 08 02:16
splosionit's more than just that, though. nobody needs any licences to play with Wave (eventually). Microsoft will have no excuse. they'll have to respond to customer demand. they can't keep saying "boohoo standards are so DIFFICULT" when EVERY OTHER BROWSER has no problem whatsoeverJun 08 02:17
twitterNo one is going to say, "we don't want you."  They are going to say, download this free software if you want to use this service.Jun 08 02:17
twitterbig differenceJun 08 02:17
twitterbut similar to how big dumb companies have required non free downloads for service over the last two decadesJun 08 02:18
ThistleWebso they cant use IE with it, thats my point. If you want to continue using IE, you cant use our software, which is the same as saying "we dont want you"Jun 08 02:18
fewaThistleWeb, you cant deny network effectsJun 08 02:18
ThistleWebgoogle do have a good rep for trustJun 08 02:18
twitterLike the local public school system says, "we don't want you" when they publish with M$ Word?Jun 08 02:19
splosionThistleWeb: it isn't exclusive if Microsoft have no reason to make their browser support features x y and z. The onus won't be on the app-makers, but on Microsoft to fix their browserJun 08 02:19
fewaThistleWeb, firefox market share is already boomingJun 08 02:19
twitterStop trying to make free software look rude, ThisleWeb, it's the other way around.Jun 08 02:19
ThistleWebIE is losing ground every day, Firefox has a huge market share in some areasJun 08 02:19
twitterM$ has been rude for decades and deserved to be ignored.Jun 08 02:20
ThistleWebtwitter, so it's bad when they do it but not when we do?Jun 08 02:20
ThistleWebywo wrongs dont make a rightJun 08 02:20
ThistleWebtwoJun 08 02:20
twitterNo, the two things are differentJun 08 02:20
Carl_Rover2k12ThistleWeb: but its because M$ is too busy figuring out how much further they can integrate IE into the OS rather than integrating new and compelling featuresJun 08 02:20
Carl_Rover2k12ThistleWeb: they are still on yesterday's plan to destroy NetscapeJun 08 02:21
splosionThistleWeb: you're missing the point. the new apps like Wave are completely open, which means anyone is free to support and implement them. If Microsoft choose not to, it isn't FOSS being exclusive, it's microsoft being a bunch of dicks.Jun 08 02:21
twitterAt the time, there was no free program to read Word docs (and it can be argued there is no program that will ever really do so)Jun 08 02:21
twitterThistle can not be so dense, he's trolling.Jun 08 02:22
ThistleWebwell, good luck to Google if they wanna exclude a lot of potential usersJun 08 02:22
twitterno one is excluded but people with an emotional attachment to a second rate browser.Jun 08 02:22
ThistleWeball their other online services work across all browsersJun 08 02:22
twitterall a waste of effortJun 08 02:22
Carl_Rover2k12ThistleWeb: keep on being a talking head for all I careJun 08 02:23
twitterit is time to quit working around IEJun 08 02:23
splosionThistleWeb: they aren't. http://www.waveprotocol.org/ microsoft is free to join in the fun. Google are being as open as humanly possible.Jun 08 02:23
ThistleWebI know it's Microsoft's job to join in, they're not gonna, or they wuill in their usual vendor locked wayJun 08 02:23
Carl_Rover2k12splosion: its no use ThistleWeb has some diatribe he/she/its affixed onJun 08 02:24
fewaThistleWeb, stop trollingJun 08 02:24
splosionthen your argument that google is being exclusive is a dead-end. go back to troll school, dudeJun 08 02:24
ThistleWebI just think that there will be plenty of users who are engrained into IE who wont give Wave a try if they;re told they cant use what they're used toJun 08 02:24
twitterThisle is right about M$ being to stupid to come to the party and about them being rude when they get thereJun 08 02:25
Carl_Rover2k12ThistleWeb: word of mouth and popular trends can change thatJun 08 02:25
ThistleWebahhh I get it now, people who don't agree with you are trolls right?Jun 08 02:25
twitterThey will deny users of Wave the same way they have denied their users all sorts of other useful stuff.Jun 08 02:25
Carl_Rover2k12ThistleWeb: no its people who keep saying the same crap over and not responding to changes in the topic deserve to be ignoredJun 08 02:25
twitterbut this time M$ will fail.Jun 08 02:25
splosionUsers locked out of wave? Sure, but more fool them. personally, I don't think Microsoft are that stupid. If their customers demand support for Wave (and I think they will), then Microsoft will support it. it's a matter of survival for themJun 08 02:26
ThistleWebgiven what BN does, paranoia of astroturfers / trolls must be high, which is understandableJun 08 02:26
taconehttp://www.waveprotocol.org/patent-licenseJun 08 02:26
twitterWell, it's interesting how Thistle would turn M$'s failings into Google being rude.Jun 08 02:26
twitterIt's pretty good spin, but still a big stupid lieJun 08 02:27
fewaThistleWeb, no users who deliberately misconstrue facts are trollsJun 08 02:27
ThistleWebyes Microsoft habitually fail at this stuffJun 08 02:27
ThistleWebwhich other FOSS projects DONT work on IE?Jun 08 02:27
twitterThe fact of the matter is that M$'s shitty browser has made life hard on Windows users.Jun 08 02:27
ThistleWebI dont know anyJun 08 02:27
Carl_Rover2k12ThistleWeb: I don't see OGG Vorbis support on Windows MediaJun 08 02:28
twitterIt's not just a project, it's all sorts of standards IE fails at.Jun 08 02:28
taconewhat's the Wave's problem with IE ?Jun 08 02:28
ThistleWebof course we all want peeps to use standrards compiant browser but IE is not excludedJun 08 02:28
Carl_Rover2k12ThistleWeb: and when will Windows Movie Maker support anything other than WMV and AVI?Jun 08 02:28
twitterIE is not standards compliant so it's users lose.  That's M$'s fault.Jun 08 02:28
taconewhy should not wave run in IE ?Jun 08 02:29
taconeit will, sure as hell.Jun 08 02:29
ThistleWebI give up, it seems discrimination is OK if we're the ones doing itJun 08 02:29
fewatacone, it will, but in "reduced functionality mode"Jun 08 02:29
taconewhich ie version ?Jun 08 02:29
fewaThistleWeb, who is "we're"Jun 08 02:29
twitterNo, it's not OK for M$ to restrict what their users can do by ignoring standards, ThistleJun 08 02:29
twitterbut you should, indeed, give up.Jun 08 02:30
taconeah, I see, html5Jun 08 02:30
ThistleWeb"we" in this case is the people who insist that it's fine to block users of a browser if thats their preferenceJun 08 02:30
taconei think some kind of degrade is acceptable even for google.Jun 08 02:30
splosionThistleWeb: I know you're trolling, but answer me this: the protocol is free, open and available for ANYONE to implement. How is that discrimination? Really? Can you answer me that?Jun 08 02:30
taconethey're just pushing for change, as they did with chromium.Jun 08 02:30
fewaThat is just trolling, gtfoJun 08 02:31
twitterThere are a lot of things that don't work in Dillo, which is about as good ad IE.Jun 08 02:31
ThistleWebpushing for change is goodJun 08 02:31
ThistleWebletting peeps know there's more than IE is goodJun 08 02:31
fewaThistleWeb, then push for someJun 08 02:31
taconeforbidding IE users may be discriminatory. providing some kind of graceful degrade would be aceptable.Jun 08 02:31
ThistleWebletting people see they have a better experinece without IE is goodJun 08 02:31
twitterIt's not pushing for change, it's not letting the M$ lowest common denominator restrict the services offered.Jun 08 02:31
fewaThistleWeb, but stop trying to impede on the progress of othersJun 08 02:31
twitterHe's not.  He's blaming google for M$'s lack of standards implementation.Jun 08 02:32
taconetwitter: better rephrasing, is "taking the lead"Jun 08 02:32
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Carl_Rover2k12ThistleWeb: seriously the fact that M$ can be poked fun at for such trivial inactions on their part is what makes it apparent they have a miserable business model when it comes to complying with other standards.Jun 08 02:32
taconei guess he just didn't understood wave will actually work in some wayJun 08 02:32
twitterWe will hear the same arguments in the Wintel press as more sites and services ignore IE's failings.Jun 08 02:33
splosionif mankind had had the sort of free collaboration we can achieve today in 1900, we could have colonies of Venus by now. instead we get Windows Vista. disruptive technologies should be encouragedJun 08 02:33
splosionof^onJun 08 02:33
taconewave uses html5 though, which is not that implemented everywhere..Jun 08 02:33
fewa* [ThistleWeb] #lottalinuxlinks #linuxoutlaws #linuxcranks #boycottnovellJun 08 02:33
fewatextbook trollJun 08 02:33
taconeseems like they want to create some race between browser vendors.Jun 08 02:34
ThistleWebeh? textbook troll? WTF??Jun 08 02:34
ThistleWebget a fuckin lifeJun 08 02:34
taconeeverybody stop saying troll every 2 wordsJun 08 02:34
Carl_Rover2k12tacone: HTML 5 eventually will, considering the WC3 standard is more ubiquitous then anything that even Adobe offersJun 08 02:34
taconewillJun 08 02:35
taconei guess they're pushing for its adoptionJun 08 02:35
taconeand probably will lead in some way with chromiumJun 08 02:35
splosiontacone: I'll just go and take a strollJun 08 02:35
ThistleWebI cant believe I'm here actually defending Microsoft, because I'm not. I'm stating that "yes Microsoft's IE only"stuff is wrong, and also Google's "no IE" is also wrongJun 08 02:35
*Carl_Rover2k12 inserts palm to faceJun 08 02:36
twitterYou are equating M$'s non free crap with Google implementing free software.  That's a case of M$ defense if I ever saw one.Jun 08 02:36
ThistleWebwhat's a black and white world like?Jun 08 02:36
taconeparanoia, I call it.Jun 08 02:36
ThistleWebI'm curiousJun 08 02:36
taconegoing bed. gn.Jun 08 02:37
splosionThistleWeb:  google isn't saying "no IE". whether or not microsoft support it is entirely up to themJun 08 02:37
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ThistleWebif there's some technical reason why Wave wont work on IE, then fine, tell the peepsJun 08 02:38
twitterSo, if M$ decided to drop audio support, would it be rude to serve music?  Poor IE users can't hear my music, I'd better not do that.Jun 08 02:38
ThistleWebif it works, even if it dont look great then dont demand change, encourage itJun 08 02:38
twitterThe technical reason things don't work on IE is that M$ is shit.Jun 08 02:38
ThistleWebyeah "shit" is a technical termJun 08 02:38
splosionThistleWeb: all of this is moot anyway. Microsoft would be idiots to refuse to support Wave. They can and they will support it if they have toJun 08 02:39
twitterWhy should the world limit itself to what little M$ will allow their users?Jun 08 02:39
ThistleWebwhatever Google do will attract a lot of people, so your right, Microsoft would be idiots to refuseJun 08 02:39
twitterShould archive.org not use theora because Bill Gates would rather charge a tax on video?Jun 08 02:39
twitterShould Wikipedia suck itself down to IE's limits?Jun 08 02:40
splosionbut it's not just google, ThistleWeb. Having an open protocol means you'll be seeing waves apps pop up just about everywhere. blogs, forums, wikis, customer-feedback zones.Jun 08 02:40
twitterShould people drop pdf because Windows does not ship a viewer?Jun 08 02:40
twitterShould people drop ASCI if M$ decides IE won't work with it?Jun 08 02:41
ThistleWebsplosion, it's a Google app, which means that's who people are putting their trust in to use and deploy it but your rightJun 08 02:41
twitterHow is it, ThistleWeb, that you can be so servile?Jun 08 02:41
ThistleWebservile?Jun 08 02:42
twitterslavishly following IE's failingsJun 08 02:42
twittermaking excusesJun 08 02:42
twitterblaming those who work to make things betterJun 08 02:42
splosioni hope Roy will implement some sort of Wavy thing for BN, at least as an optional thing, anyway. would improve the site a lot imhoJun 08 02:42
ThistleWebwheres the freedom in forcing choice on someone?Jun 08 02:43
twitterthere is no freedom on WindowsJun 08 02:43
fewahttp://yro.slashdot.org/story/09/06/07/2318210/Google-Chromes-Inclusion-of-FFMpeg-vs-the-LGPL Chrome includes FFMPegJun 08 02:43
ThistleWebI'd love it if a mass airbourne virus hit, and tomorrow onwards every IE users suddenly started using Firefox, Opera etc but it's not gonna happenJun 08 02:44
twitterit does not matter much anyway.  M$ is a failing company and IE will soon vanish with them.Jun 08 02:44
ThistleWebtwitter, I agreeJun 08 02:44
twitterIt's already happening, no virus required.Jun 08 02:45
twitterhttp://www.linux.com/news/enterprise/case-studies/16798-linux-makes-the-grade-in-california-schoolsJun 08 02:45
splosionYou can't force a choice on somebody by definition. Choices can only be offered. It's when the choices are equally bad as each other that they become a problem.Jun 08 02:45
ThistleWebnot all that sure about the "soon" part, but it's happening and it's not gonna reverseJun 08 02:45
twitterI think M$ is out of cashJun 08 02:45
Carl_Rover2k12twitter: I doubt it, but it whether they are spending far more then investors would like to seeJun 08 02:46
ThistleWebchoices can only be offered - exactly - sorry, cant use that browser to use this software, gotta use another one insteadJun 08 02:46
twitterand that their "assurance plans" are being dropped like hot potatoesJun 08 02:46
ThistleWebmaybe it's a good decision on Googles partJun 08 02:46
ThistleWebmaybe the tide has turned enough that it'll help more than hurt themJun 08 02:47
ThistleWebmaybe it'll help convince IT admins of IE only intranets that it's worth changingJun 08 02:48
ThistleWebwho knowsJun 08 02:48
twitterM$'s decision to ignore web standards will kill M$.Jun 08 02:48
twitterGoogle and other online services are the new killer app.Jun 08 02:48
ThistleWebwith IE8 they've been brought into something close to standards all beit kicking and screaming with a negative nameJun 08 02:49
twitterSoftware that does not work with them is software that will soon hit the trash heap.Jun 08 02:49
twitterIE8 is too little too late.Jun 08 02:49
twitterthe world has moved on.Jun 08 02:49
ThistleWebI agreeJun 08 02:49
twitterI use IE at work.  It already sucks.Jun 08 02:50
splosionit's good that such a killer app is on the horizon. I've had debates with people being apologetic about SIlverlight and similar with the refrain, "But there aren't any free alternatives!". Well balls to that. We have a free and open killer app that will kick the proprietary media solutions into touchJun 08 02:50
ThistleWebI just see no other company refusing to do the IE hacks because they'd rather people use real browsersJun 08 02:50
ThistleWebthey do them because they dont want to lose IE usersJun 08 02:50
twitterI see lots of sites that look like ass on IEJun 08 02:51
ThistleWebI agree, but they still functionJun 08 02:51
twitterwith three or four versions of IE out there, it's impossible to hack to them all.Jun 08 02:51
ThistleWebmight look like shit, with stuff badly aligned etc but they do still workJun 08 02:51
splosionThistleWeb: that's true. But $the_world supporting Microsoft is a worse situation than microsoft support $the_worldJun 08 02:51
twitterbetter to just write to standards.  If IE chokes on standards, offer people a browser that does not suck.Jun 08 02:51
ThistleWebI agree, it is better to write to standardsJun 08 02:52
twitterthe situation has been world supporting M$ for far too long.Jun 08 02:52
splosionso your browser sucks. Illogical solution: change every site in the world so it doesn't matter. The best solution should be obvious, hereJun 08 02:52
twitterlolJun 08 02:52
splosionanyone see this? http://www.linux-foundation.org/weblogs/jzemlin/2009/06/05/the-week-of-the-linux-desktop/Jun 08 02:54
twitteryes, Roy got that oneJun 08 02:54
splosionthought he mightJun 08 02:54
ThistleWebfewa, a question, since my logic obviously don't match yoursJun 08 02:57
ThistleWebhow does the four channels I am logged into define me as a "textbook troll"Jun 08 02:58
ThistleWebis it any 4 channels? if it was 3 would I still be given the same label? Is it the choice of channels?Jun 08 02:59
ThistleWebI'm curiousJun 08 02:59
ThistleWebto me, it's like picking 4 random words from the dictionary and applying some bizarre equation to add them upJun 08 02:59
fewasplosion, developers have to make it the killer appJun 08 03:00
ThistleWebperhaps I'm just deficient in that logicJun 08 03:00
splosionI don't know about that, but I labelled you a troll because I think that arguing that FOSS being exclusive because Microsoft refuses to support standards is the same as arguing fish are being exclusive for mammals to refuse to evolve gills.Jun 08 03:00
ThistleWebsince you seem skilled in it, could you explain it to me?Jun 08 03:00
splosion^for^because ^toJun 08 03:01
ThistleWebsplosion, yeah I get that. My point was that Google were discriminating in this one case, not FOSS in general, and I agree Microsoft have no excuses for not supporting standards, it dont cost them anythingJun 08 03:03
ThistleWebwe're beyond that though, it's coolJun 08 03:03
ThistleWebI still want to understand the logic that puts 4 IRC channels into some equation and outputs "troll"Jun 08 03:04
twitterThistleWeb, you have spouted the same lie for an hour now.Jun 08 03:04
splosionfine by beJun 08 03:04
splosionby meJun 08 03:04
fewadell has a $300, capable laptop http://configure.us.dell.com/dellstore/config.aspx?oc=dncwzl1Jun 08 03:04
splosionfewa: odds are that it'll happen. Those developers at I/O gave the Wave team a standing ovationJun 08 03:04
fewasplosion, absolutelyJun 08 03:04
fewabut just had to note that developers are what makes such a product goJun 08 03:05
fewaThat presentation was jaw droppingJun 08 03:05
splosionpersonally I want to get my hands on that terminal-based client they demo'd. :DJun 08 03:05
ThistleWebfewa, I'm waiting on an explanation, is there any reason why you don't want to explain it to me?Jun 08 03:07
splosionare those channels full of wintrolls or what?Jun 08 03:07
ThistleWebsplosion, not to my knowledge, they are full of listeners to their podcastsJun 08 03:08
splosionif so fewa's reasoning should be pretty obvious, although just inhabiting a troll channel doesn't necessarily make you a trollJun 08 03:08
ThistleWeball 3 are podcastsJun 08 03:08
ThistleWeblinux podcastsJun 08 03:08
ThistleWebtheir irc channels are for listeners of their podcastsJun 08 03:09
ThistleWebwhich I am oneJun 08 03:09
splosionfine by meJun 08 03:09
ThistleWebBN is an rss feed I subscribe to and hope it continues to put the heat under Microsoft and Novells crimesJun 08 03:09
ThistleWebthat's what baffled me, listing the channels then giving a judgementJun 08 03:10
ThistleWebtotally random shit, spouted as if it's self evidentJun 08 03:10
ThistleWebthats why I want an explanationJun 08 03:10
fewait wasnt self evidentJun 08 03:11
fewabut this channel gets alot of trolls and you were seeming quite trollingJun 08 03:11
ThistleWebI understand why this channel and the site does get a lot of thatJun 08 03:11
ThistleWebI understand why peeps here are sensitive to itJun 08 03:11
ThistleWebbut pulling some random shit as "evidence" don't flyJun 08 03:12
fewawell join to the channel :PJun 08 03:12
ThistleWebI'm only human, I sometimes may come across as trolling from time to time, it's not intentionalJun 08 03:12
ThistleWebbut I'm not gonna just agree with something if I dontJun 08 03:13
ThistleWebmaybe I could explain better, that's a fai accusationJun 08 03:13
fewayour right, i should keep my coolJun 08 03:13
ThistleWebnah, speak your peice, but pulling an IRC channel list and claiming it as "proof" is wrongJun 08 03:14
ThistleWebso we can move on then?Jun 08 03:14
fewayes,Jun 08 03:14
fewathis is sane conversation, this is goodJun 08 03:14
ThistleWeblolJun 08 03:14
*ThistleWeb lights peace pipe and passes it roundJun 08 03:15
fewayou should read the logs from this morningJun 08 03:15
ThistleWebI occasionally skimmed them in the RSSJun 08 03:15
ThistleWebbefore it occurred to me to come inJun 08 03:15
splosionThistleWeb: that's all right. I don't agree with absolutely everything on BN eitherJun 08 03:16
fewaHonestly, google does think of IE 6, and meaintains good compatibility, but they are held back, sand are pushing hard to be broken from IE's shackelsJun 08 03:16
ThistleWebBN has a LOT of credibility in my eyes because Roy not only puts his opinion on it, and exceprts but offers the full source for people to see he's not taking stuff out of context to fit an agendaJun 08 03:17
fewaor to at least give better functioanity, no possible with IE, to users of modern browsers.Jun 08 03:17
fewaThistleWeb, its the type of good reporting you see at groklaw.net tooJun 08 03:17
ThistleWebyeah, groklaw is another one of my feedsJun 08 03:18
splosionThistleWeb: yeah, a lot of detractors say that Roy only links to his own articles, but that's not true. He links to his own articles a lot! But he'll always link to the source of whatever it is he's writing about, tooJun 08 03:18
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ThistleWeba guide of "truth" I put on it, is that there are a LOT of serious accusations on BN, so IF they were all fiction Microsoft and / or Novell would have him covered in lawsuitsJun 08 03:19
ThistleWebthe fact that they dont tells it's own storyJun 08 03:19
splosioni see lots of people who just don't read things they disagree with and shun BN for that reason. But that's bogus. having intellectual integrity means you can read and understand the reasoning behind what appears at BN, and come to a decision about it yourself. It's not like roy's some kind of matric-style Oracle. the links are there for you to make up yourJun 08 03:20
splosion--own damned mindJun 08 03:20
splosionmatrix*Jun 08 03:20
ThistleWebthe whole "onterlectual property" thing needs treated for what it is too, a bogus, invented, catch all term companies can use and throw real sounding accusations about without the risk of a defamation suit against themJun 08 03:21
ThistleWebif a "copyright violation" accusation is false, it can be persuedJun 08 03:22
ThistleWebor a trademark violationJun 08 03:22
ThistleWebbut IP don't exist in lawJun 08 03:22
fewaor microsoft's allegations that linux "violates 3xx of our patents" without specifying which onesJun 08 03:22
ThistleWebexactlyJun 08 03:22
fewa(they havnt been pushing that one as much since In Re Bilski)Jun 08 03:23
ThistleWebthats where you see the mindset behind it. If they wanted to protect that IP, they'd let people know where the violations occur and let them take them out or code round themJun 08 03:23
splosionyeah. a few people submitted patches for the VFAT patents as soon as the TomTom stuff came about. If we knew what those patents were, they wouldn't be a problem.Jun 08 03:23
ThistleWebhaving the axe in the air above people is a safer route to moneyJun 08 03:23
ThistleWebone particular part of the patent system which drives me nuts is that it does not restrict the patent to the inventor onlyJun 08 03:25
ThistleWebso someone like Microsoft can come along and find something which already exists, but where the inventor (for whatever reason) didn't patent it......and Microsoft patent it, to use as a weaponJun 08 03:26
fewaThistleWeb, that is actually illegalJun 08 03:26
ThistleWebit should beJun 08 03:26
fewaand those patents are invalid, but the way the system workss, it trys to promote itsselfJun 08 03:26
ThistleWebdidnt they try for sudo?Jun 08 03:26
fewaits called "prior art"Jun 08 03:26
ThistleWeband odf in New ZealandJun 08 03:27
fewaThistleWeb, the patent office gets so many patent applications that they cant property analyze themJun 08 03:27
fewaso then end up approving huge numbers of invalid patentsJun 08 03:27
ThistleWebthe system does seem to allow stuff like that, even if not by designJun 08 03:27
splosionespecially as all patents are written to be as vague as possibleJun 08 03:27
fewato invalidate them they have to be fought off in expensive legal battlesJun 08 03:27
ThistleWebexactlyJun 08 03:28
fewabut patents by anyone but the inventor are invalid, because if someone else invented it first, and that invention is what the filer used to and patented, then there is prior art, that invalidates the claimJun 08 03:29
ThistleWebfrom what I understand , patents are "first applied for" not "first invented" which is wrong in my eyesJun 08 03:29
splosionI asked a lawyer once what I could do as a benevolent billionaire to go around taking on corporations for their abuses to the legal system. He said I could do a hell of a lot of damage. I wish somebody would do thatJun 08 03:29
splosionbut nobody ever got to be a billionaire by pissing off large companies. catch22Jun 08 03:31
ThistleWebpatents on ideas are also nuts too. I get that a patent gives the inventor a short monolopy to make their money back, but that means actually having a product on the marketJun 08 03:31
fewathe patent system is widly abused, both in scope (making absurd arguments that algoryths in software can be non-mathmatical, etc) in prior art(things that existed long before), and in obviousness (FAT32 is a obvious thing to anybody given the constraints of the goals)Jun 08 03:31
splosionwhat I really hate is that whenever anyone investigates the pros and cons of having patents at all, not having them always turns out to have more benefits. Especially economic benefits.Jun 08 03:32
ThistleWebit'd be usefull if device makers got together and agreed on a single file system to use instead of FATJun 08 03:32
fewathe pirate party, which just got 1 (and perhaps 2) seats in European parliament, has a stance that patents should be entirely eliminated.Jun 08 03:32
fewaThistleWeb, FAT is a fine filesystem, that is extremely easy to implament, Microsoft has no claims against FAT16 wthout extended file names.Jun 08 03:33
ThistleWebit has conditions on it's use, which Microsoft have shown they will legally enforce with TomTomJun 08 03:34
ThistleWebit's one of these "everyone uses it so we will" dealsJun 08 03:34
ThistleWebso every device is FATJun 08 03:34
fewahttp://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-2541736281918823479 Copyright regime vs. civil liberties (also has a little on patents)Jun 08 03:34
fewaThistleWeb, "conditions for use" are basically threats by microsoft, if those threats are empth do to no legal standing, then those conditions are bullshitJun 08 03:35
fewaand microsoft has no legal basis for restricting the usage of the FAT16 filesystemJun 08 03:36
ThistleWebso they dont say "you can use it, but you cant use LFN"? I thought that was why TonTom were in courtJun 08 03:36
ThistleWebwithout paying us*Jun 08 03:37
fewaTomtom was using LFNsJun 08 03:37
ThistleWebso they were using it in a way that Microsoft needs paid for, which means there are conditions on it's useJun 08 03:37
fewa****they were using it in a was microsoft *demands* payment forJun 08 03:38
fewaneeds and demands are two differnt thingsJun 08 03:38
ThistleWebthere are plenty of filesystems which dont have those conditionsJun 08 03:38
fewaif you had enought money to fight a long legal battle you could probably get the LFN patent declared invalidJun 08 03:38
fewaand In Re Bilski getting appealed to the supreme court *may* make this easierJun 08 03:39
ThistleWebI'm saying the TomTom case should be waking these vendors up to agreeing an alternate to FATJun 08 03:39
fewadepending on what those 9 justices thinkJun 08 03:39
fewaThistleWeb, i think they should just use FAT16, as they really do need microsoft compatJun 08 03:39
splosionfewa: the money issue is important. larry lessig has changed his approach on copyright issues by focusing more on how money and lobbyists distort democracy for instanceJun 08 03:40
fewathats what most cameras already useJun 08 03:40
fewasplosion, its a good fightJun 08 03:40
splosionif anyone's interested, here's a great piece on the whole free culture thing http://ralpress.org/2009/03/16/free-culture-versus-freetard/Jun 08 03:41
fewasplosion, i think we also need a more represenative electoral systemJun 08 03:41
fewato break the lack of choice between two partiesJun 08 03:41
fewainstant runoff elections would be an excellent first step, with the added bonus that it gets rid of negative campaigningJun 08 03:42
splosionfewa: I'm in the UK. our government is currently falling apart :sJun 08 03:42
DaemonFCLame 3.99 seems to have a few tweaks to their variable bitrate algorithmJun 08 03:42
ThistleWebI;m wondering if Brown can last till the end of the monthJun 08 03:43
DaemonFCit's spitting out smaller files at every quality level than 3.98Jun 08 03:43
ThistleWebit seems he's running out of options to cling on to the jobJun 08 03:43
fewasplosion, are country is being held together by a slow-moving, but generally high on integrity, judicial systemJun 08 03:43
fewa*our, ie USAJun 08 03:43
DaemonFCsaves you maybe 2-3 megs per albumJun 08 03:44
splosionThistleWeb: he'll have become Prime Minister without us having a say, and he'll be removed as Prime Minister without us having a say. No one will have any say in the matter at any point. A triumph for British Democracy!Jun 08 03:44
fewabut also the admistration is considerably better than the previos onesJun 08 03:44
DaemonFCnot huge but it helpsJun 08 03:44
ThistleWebsplosion, I did wonder if any other person in history had been PM without ever being electedJun 08 03:44
splosionThistleWeb: sure. John Major, for instanceJun 08 03:45
splosionbut to become PM and then not be PM anymore without an election? I don't think that has ever happenedJun 08 03:45
ThistleWebyou can see where he's coming from though. He's spent his whole career aiming for the top job, then allying with Blair was his chance and Blair took too long to stand asideJun 08 03:45
ThistleWeball the stuff Brown funded to get quick results like PFI, Blair got the credit forJun 08 03:45
splosionyeah. Really nice move from Blair. "the country's properly fucked now. Take over for me, Gordon."Jun 08 03:46
ThistleWebwhen the bills come in, Brown has moved next door, so his chanclelor gets to deal with them, but Browns hands are tied because he's spent all the money when he was chancellorJun 08 03:46
ThistleWebactually Major was ellectedJun 08 03:47
splosionit makes no sense at all that the government is STILL pursuing PFI schemes after all the evidence about how much damage they causeJun 08 03:47
ThistleWebhe won the ellection before BlairJun 08 03:47
ThistleWebI thinkJun 08 03:47
ThistleWeb92Jun 08 03:47
fewawhat were the electoral results?Jun 08 03:47
fewai guess that is EU gov howeverJun 08 03:47
ThistleWebalbeit he was PM for about a yr before thatJun 08 03:47
DaemonFCso assuming you use q2 (Lame default), and have an 8 gig MP3 player, encoding with Lame 3.99 vs 3.98 will net you and additional 47 songs on the deviceJun 08 03:47
DaemonFCnot bad for just using one version of the encoder over the otherJun 08 03:48
DaemonFC*and=anJun 08 03:48
ThistleWebPGI was Brown's baby, when Blair was in chargeJun 08 03:48
splosionThistleWeb: yeah he won in 92, but he took over from Thatcher in 1990Jun 08 03:48
ThistleWebPFI*Jun 08 03:48
ThistleWebyep, knew it was something like thatJun 08 03:48
ThistleWebI knew he did fight a general ellection and win itJun 08 03:48
ThistleWebmainly because Labour weren;t a credible alternative thenJun 08 03:49
ThistleWebas bad as the Tories were, Labour were still percieved to be worseJun 08 03:49
splosionand who is the better choice now? the whole situation now is insaneJun 08 03:50
ThistleWebBrown's not gonna u-turn on PFI, even if he has switched jobs, it's a pride thing, people KNOW it was his baby from the startJun 08 03:50
ThistleWebdunno who's better now, the system is wrongJun 08 03:50
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ThistleWebCameron has been very oppertunistic over the expenses scandal and it's paid offJun 08 03:51
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ThistleWeball the major parties have failedJun 08 03:51
ThistleWebit's time for a change of systemJun 08 03:51
ThistleWebthe system as it is, is the elite governing for the eliteJun 08 03:52
splosiondid you see the news earlier about the BNP's win? Some guy screamed "Fucking Fascists" on live TV. beautiful stuffJun 08 03:52
ThistleWebthe acerage Joe gets shafted from every angleJun 08 03:52
splosionyupJun 08 03:52
*DaemonFC is now known as DaemonJun 08 03:52
*Daemon is now known as DaemonFCJun 08 03:52
DaemonFCgrrrJun 08 03:52
ThistleWebyeah they got 1 seat, maybe 2Jun 08 03:52
ThistleWebUKIP did better too, sadlyJun 08 03:52
ThistleWebin the EU ellections at any rateJun 08 03:53
splosioni love all those parties' rallying cries. Bigotry is what we need to make Britain Great again!Jun 08 03:53
ThistleWebI can see Brown mirroring Thatchers ignominous evition from number 10Jun 08 03:54
ThistleWebshe made the torries unellectable for a few ellections, between Blair and Brown, they've done the same for LabourJun 08 03:54
ThistleWebuntil we get some form of PR, in reality we're only gonna see either one of those two in governmentJun 08 03:55
splosionyeah, pretty muchJun 08 03:55
ThistleWebwhoever's better at that timeJun 08 03:55
ThistleWebwhich swings back and forth with eventsJun 08 03:55
ThistleWebboth appeal to the eliteJun 08 03:56
ThistleWebboth will shaft the average Joe in different waysJun 08 03:56
splosionCameron's motto: "We're probably a bit less corrupt." democracy weptJun 08 03:56
ThistleWebactually I was waiting for the slogan "we'll rob the taxpayer less than the other guy" as an election sloganJun 08 03:57
splosionhahaJun 08 03:57
splosionwell a few years back Labour's motto was "Forward not back", the same motto as the guy who built the Berlin Wall. :)Jun 08 03:57
ThistleWebnothing like honesty in advertisingJun 08 03:59
ThistleWebhistory does seem to be repeating in Westminster with the sides swappedJun 08 04:01
splosiondepressing poll from UF: http://ubuntuforums.org/showthread.php?p=7412625Jun 08 04:01
ThistleWebfromt he dying days of the Torries before Blairs 97 landslideJun 08 04:02
splosionyeahJun 08 04:02
splosionbut it won't be a landslide for the same reasonsJun 08 04:02
splosionCameron isn't giving people the same revolutionary vision Blair was in 96. All he's offering is a different bunch of crooksJun 08 04:02
ThistleWebI dont look forward to a Torrie govt but they have to be better than the current Labour oneJun 08 04:03
ThistleWebfor what it's worth, I like Cameron, unfortunately, the bulk of his party is nasty, old etc so as much as he will try to bring some fresh ideas through, getting support from his own side will be toughJun 08 04:05
splosionyeah, but a bunch of deaf dumb and blind frogs with marker pens up their arseholes will probably do a better job than the current governmentJun 08 04:05
ThistleWebthe head of the snake is appealing, but it's still a snakeJun 08 04:05
ThistleWebso he'll be forced backwards to get anything doneJun 08 04:05
splosioni think the Graun and the Indie are supporting the Lib Dems this time around, or at least one of them is. I'll be voting Lib Dem anywayJun 08 04:06
DaemonFCgood godJun 08 04:06
DaemonFCthis MP3 file is 16 megs and still goingJun 08 04:06
DaemonFCuggghJun 08 04:06
splosionDaemonFC: transcoding?Jun 08 04:07
ThistleWebI'm kinda between Lib Dem and Labour (normally) although both parties are doing a good job of turning me off of themJun 08 04:07
DaemonFCfrom a FLAC on a DVDJun 08 04:07
DaemonFC16.4 megs at Lame 2.99 q2 VBRJun 08 04:07
DaemonFCthe FLAC is 75.3 megsJun 08 04:08
DaemonFCso I'm sure the WAV would be something aroun 130-140 megsJun 08 04:08
ThistleWebits a sad state of affairs when a small pocket of voters in a few swing constituencies can turn an ellectionJun 08 04:08
splosionyeahJun 08 04:08
DaemonFCThistleWeb: Works that way everywhereJun 08 04:08
ThistleWebwhen a vote for an outsider in a stronghold seat is a wasted voteJun 08 04:08
splosionI fully agree that we need some PR up in this bitchJun 08 04:09
DaemonFChere it's always, gods, guns, gays, and does the candidate support abortionJun 08 04:09
DaemonFCnever anything stupid like the economy or finding ways to not declare war on everybodyJun 08 04:09
ThistleWebit dont need to be a person to have war declared on itJun 08 04:09
ThistleWebdrugsJun 08 04:09
ThistleWebterrorJun 08 04:09
ThistleWebwhat did terror ever do to anyone?Jun 08 04:10
DaemonFCyeah, the government loves declaring war on things that can never be wiped outJun 08 04:10
ThistleWebyet it's in a warJun 08 04:10
ThistleWebhere I thought it was a wordJun 08 04:10
DaemonFCcause they can always use it as an excuse to give themselves more pwoerJun 08 04:10
splosionThe UK voting issues: foreigners, we want public services but we don't want taxes, suveillance, paeophiles and terrorists.Jun 08 04:10
ThistleWebGriffin got ellected btw, so the BNP have a second seatJun 08 04:11
DaemonFChere terrorism has trumped pedophilia as a blanket exuse for warrentless  FBI raidsJun 08 04:11
DaemonFCbut it's still up thereJun 08 04:11
DaemonFC:)Jun 08 04:11
splosionI rarely use the c-word. But the BNP are a bunch of zenophobic pathetic cunts. And that's all I can be bothered to say about themJun 08 04:11
ThistleWebit's fear, scare them enough, make sure you're seen as the saviour from those fears and they'll give you all the power you wantJun 08 04:11
splosion^zenophobic^xenophobicJun 08 04:12
DaemonFCso they're like the Republicans of the UK?Jun 08 04:12
splosionmuch worseJun 08 04:12
DaemonFCoh damnJun 08 04:12
ThistleWebyep, the BNP are very much extremistJun 08 04:12
DaemonFCdon't say things you can't take backJun 08 04:12
DaemonFClolJun 08 04:12
ThistleWebthink facistsJun 08 04:12
ThistleWebneo-nazis in suitsJun 08 04:12
DaemonFCstill thinking about RepublicansJun 08 04:12
ThistleWeblolJun 08 04:12
ThistleWebthese guys want all white UKJun 08 04:13
DaemonFCyou're not helping me not think about RepublicansJun 08 04:13
splosionthey would like to abolish human rights, kick out all the immigrants, and make sort of "immigration prisons" for processing foreignersJun 08 04:13
ThistleWebthey want to kick non-white non-UK nationals outJun 08 04:13
DaemonFCyeah, the Republicans want a all white documented USAJun 08 04:13
DaemonFCand a non-white slave labor populationJun 08 04:13
DaemonFCliving in ghettosJun 08 04:13
DaemonFCso far you're describing them pretty wellJun 08 04:13
ThistleWebmore KKK than RepublicanJun 08 04:13
splosionDaemonFC: the people who support BNP already live in the ghettoJun 08 04:14
DaemonFCyeahJun 08 04:14
DaemonFCwe call them white trashJun 08 04:14
DaemonFCthey live in trailersJun 08 04:14
ThistleWebthe BNP want an image of law abiding British people, so they leave the skinhead shit to othersJun 08 04:14
DaemonFCand vote RepublicanJun 08 04:14
ThistleWebtheir hatred is in incitementJun 08 04:14
DaemonFCRepublicansJun 08 04:14
DaemonFCyou're like 10 for 10 trying to convince me this BNP is worseJun 08 04:15
DaemonFC*notJun 08 04:15
DaemonFChehJun 08 04:15
splosionBNP members stab Asian kids too, don't forgetJun 08 04:15
splosioncuz they iz forrun scumJun 08 04:15
ThistleWebyepJun 08 04:16
DaemonFCthere's nothing wrong with the Republicans that couldn't be fixed by turning Texas, Arkansas, Alabama, and Missouri into a reservationJun 08 04:16
DaemonFCand declaring it FucktardistanJun 08 04:16
DaemonFCmove them all thereJun 08 04:16
DaemonFCand let them turn it into Iran instead of the country I have to deal withJun 08 04:16
DaemonFC:)Jun 08 04:16
ThistleWebUKIP are a more "normal" and "moderate" version of the BNP but even they are considered too right wing to be acceptable by mostJun 08 04:17
splosion"I'm from Alabama. What states are BNP and UK in, and what does UKIP stand for?"Jun 08 04:17
ThistleWeblolJun 08 04:17
ThistleWebUKIP tends to pick up Torrie voters (and backers and MPs) who are too far right of the current Torrie leadershipJun 08 04:18
DaemonFCI voted for Dennis Kucinich in the primaryJun 08 04:18
DaemonFCBarack Obama got it in a landslide thoughJun 08 04:18
splosionRobert Kilroy Silk got a bucket of shit thrown over him that one time. Happy memoriesJun 08 04:18
DaemonFCI also signed Kucinich's petition to Congress supporting the articles of impeachment he introduced against George Bush and Dick CheneyJun 08 04:18
ThistleWebsplosion, he sorta started off great, then went to hell very quicklyJun 08 04:19
splosionyeahJun 08 04:19
ThistleWebI think his motives were fine for starting it, but he lost it quickly as things werent going his wayJun 08 04:19
splosioneasy to campaign against, really. "Would you let a man covered in shit into your home? Don't be a twat. Vote Conservatives for the next election."Jun 08 04:19
DaemonFCthere's a few Republicans in office that really aren't all that badJun 08 04:20
DaemonFClike 3 of them I like out of the entire senateJun 08 04:20
DaemonFCthat's like 3 out of 39Jun 08 04:21
DaemonFC:)Jun 08 04:21
DaemonFCout of 100 total seatsJun 08 04:21
ThistleWebthe way I see the Republicans and Democrats is that both put US corporate interests first, but the Democrats listen to others tooJun 08 04:21
DaemonFCsafe bet I won't vote for the RepublicanJun 08 04:21
splosionDaemonFC: I think in your country and ours people get too caught up in partisan politics. It's a crock of shit. People with a brain look at issues on a case-by-case bias.Jun 08 04:21
DaemonFCI have once, because one of those 3 that I approve of is one of our senatorsJun 08 04:21
DaemonFC(Indiana)Jun 08 04:22
DaemonFCIndiana is lucky to have two good senatorsJun 08 04:22
splosionIf there was an MP in my neighbourhood with sane policies, I'd vote for regardless of whether or not he was Labour, Conservative, Lib Dem, Communist or KKKJun 08 04:22
splosionfor him*Jun 08 04:22
DaemonFCRichard Lugar (Republican) and Evan Bayh (Democrat)Jun 08 04:22
ThistleWebthe Republicans can be relied on to "vote God" so it's used as a tool, meaning a never ending attempt of Republicans to push the religious agenda / discriminations into law for everyoneJun 08 04:22
DaemonFCdd that we have one of each since the seats are up for vote for anyone in the stateJun 08 04:22
DaemonFCbut they both win in a landslide every timeJun 08 04:23
DaemonFC*oddJun 08 04:23
DaemonFCLugar is very very moderate and quite frankly in the last election, his competition scared me worseJun 08 04:23
DaemonFCLugar worked with Obama in the SenateJun 08 04:23
DaemonFCso that says something tooJun 08 04:23
ThistleWebwe need a system where MPs can speak their opinions without being accused of being a rebel, or a u-turn for the party etcJun 08 04:24
ThistleWebwhere whips dont force a vote a certain wayJun 08 04:24
Eruaranban all political partiesJun 08 04:24
splosionIn other words, we need more IndependentsJun 08 04:24
DaemonFChere what we need is to get rid of the filibusterJun 08 04:24
DaemonFCto stop letting the minority party rule the senateJun 08 04:24
ThistleWebwe vote these scumbags in to represent US, if their own party wants to do something WE are against, who do they vote for? the party or us?Jun 08 04:25
DaemonFCwe voted in 60 Democrats because we wanted them to have 60% control of the senateJun 08 04:25
DaemonFCand that they should haveJun 08 04:25
ThistleWebthe Republicans do seem to be bad losersJun 08 04:25
ThistleWebstand in the way of everything because they're not in chargeJun 08 04:25
DaemonFCI really do hope Harry Reid gets voted out of the Senate next electionJun 08 04:25
splosionOne of my friend's father is a Labour MP. my friend tells me that the pressure to conform to the party line is pretty powerful. It's not just a case of social exclusion, it's a case of no-one supporting you at all if you don'tJun 08 04:25
DaemonFChe lets the Republicans filibuster anything without pushing backJun 08 04:26
DaemonFCI'd make them stand and read the phonebook for 20 hoursJun 08 04:26
DaemonFCif they wantede whatever it was that badJun 08 04:26
DaemonFCI have an idea they'd stop the bullshit pretty damned fast if I was running the SenateJun 08 04:27
DaemonFC:PJun 08 04:27
ThistleWebas much as we have the Lib Dems here, it's realistically a two party system just like the USJun 08 04:27
ThistleWebin Westminster at any rateJun 08 04:27
splosionin the US, don't they have that thing where you can attach bills to larger ones? Like you could attach a "kill all the homos" bill to a MUST-PASS military-spending bill even if the two things aren't remotely related?Jun 08 04:28
ThistleWebthey can ammend conditions yesJun 08 04:28
DaemonFCit's called a riderJun 08 04:28
DaemonFCand they usually use them to kill bills they don't likeJun 08 04:28
ThistleWebwhere you agree to the whole thing, or not at allJun 08 04:29
DaemonFCeven if they don't favor the rider they addJun 08 04:29
DaemonFCthey can attach them to make the bill unpassableJun 08 04:29
splosionahJun 08 04:29
DaemonFCwhich is why Bill Clinton had a Line Item Veto for part of his second termJun 08 04:29
ThistleWebthen paint the oposition who voted against something as someone who dont want it, even if it was that single unacceptable clause that triggered the "no" voteJun 08 04:29
DaemonFCbut the supreme court declared it unconstitutionalJun 08 04:29
DaemonFC:)Jun 08 04:29
DaemonFCjust in time for BushJun 08 04:29
DaemonFCthank godJun 08 04:30
DaemonFCcan you imagine what Bush would have done with that?Jun 08 04:30
*DaemonFC shiversJun 08 04:30
ThistleWebthe Patriot Act was ammended after Senators read it too, and the new version was passed with practiaclly nobody reading it, they assumed it was what they had already readJun 08 04:30
DaemonFCthe courts have struck some of the worst bits of itJun 08 04:31
ThistleWebtrueJun 08 04:31
DaemonFCbut others are still there and have to wait til the govt uses them on someoneJun 08 04:31
DaemonFCto be challengedJun 08 04:31
splosionreminiscent of OOXMLJun 08 04:31
ThistleWebI think this was the first time, not when it was renewedJun 08 04:31
DaemonFCno, most of it was renewed or amended in 2006Jun 08 04:31
splosionhai guyz here's a ten billion page standard for you to read for 20 minutes and then vote for!Jun 08 04:31
DaemonFCthough some of the horrible bits expiredJun 08 04:32
DaemonFCsome of it was shot down by the courts in 2007Jun 08 04:32
DaemonFCand some of it was reauthorized with tweaks in 2008Jun 08 04:32
DaemonFCit's still a horrible lawJun 08 04:32
ThistleWebit isJun 08 04:32
DaemonFCbut much less horrible than the original iterationJun 08 04:33
splosionbeen up all night writing a report. time for me to go wash. tahJun 08 04:35
*splosion is now known as sploshJun 08 04:35
DaemonFCI decided to go over Lame 3.99 Alpha by building it from source as a 64-bit executableJun 08 04:37
DaemonFCit's already a worthy upgrade over 3.98Jun 08 04:38
DaemonFCthe variable bitrate tweaks are pretty significantJun 08 04:38
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DaemonFCLame 3.99 seems to produce better quality files, and smaller size with the new vbr tweaksJun 08 04:58
DaemonFCtime to get cracking on re-encoding :PJun 08 04:58
splosionhow do you rate oggs?Jun 08 05:08
ThistleWebfried?Jun 08 05:09
ThistleWeboh, oggsJun 08 05:09
splosion:PJun 08 05:09
ThistleWebI rather enjoy a good fried ogg, although it's not good for yaJun 08 05:09
ThistleWeblolJun 08 05:10
splosionfried eggs, cooked over-easy, with bacon, inbetween two slices of bread along with a whole load of melted cheese, fried onions and Worctershire sauceJun 08 05:10
ThistleWebpatent free breakfastJun 08 05:11
DaemonFCVorbis is a decent alternative to MP3 if you care, or if you want to try finding a halfway decent player that's not from some far east no-nameJun 08 05:11
zer0c00llolJun 08 05:11
DaemonFCotherwise it's better to stick to Lame MP3 or AACJun 08 05:11
DaemonFCMP3 is by far the most broadly supportedJun 08 05:11
splosionthat's why I got an iAudioJun 08 05:12
splosionget a player that supports everything and problem solvedJun 08 05:12
DaemonFCyeah, but I saved quite a bit of money and got a SansaJun 08 05:12
splosionahJun 08 05:12
zer0c00lwhich player plays all?Jun 08 05:12
splosionCan't you get one of those firmware hacks that lets you play oggs?Jun 08 05:12
ThistleWebmy Creative Zen works reasonable in Linux with gnomad but it's non-oggJun 08 05:12
splosionI avoid mpt devices like the plagueJun 08 05:13
splosionmtpJun 08 05:13
DaemonFCprobably saved me Cowon's closest comparable product to the 8 GB Sansa view I got for $55Jun 08 05:13
DaemonFCis the Cowon S9 8 GB playerJun 08 05:13
DaemonFCwhich is $174.98Jun 08 05:13
DaemonFCat NeweggJun 08 05:13
DaemonFCOgg Vorbis is not worth spending another $120Jun 08 05:14
DaemonFCto me anywayJun 08 05:14
ThistleWebthere's always rokbox if you want itJun 08 05:14
splosionsure. but how about the sansa? I heard they worked with the rockbox firmware hack. doesn't that allow you to play oggs?Jun 08 05:14
DaemonFCespecially when you're paying royalties to Microsoft and Fruenhofer and Thomson no matter what player you buyJun 08 05:15
ThistleWebthey dont have an image for my Zen, so it's not an option for meJun 08 05:15
DaemonFCThey don't support the ViewJun 08 05:15
DaemonFCand I wish they did cause I'd love to have more format optionsJun 08 05:15
DaemonFCbelieve meJun 08 05:15
ThistleWebI guess it's just time, and volunteer products to get them workingJun 08 05:15
ThistleWebyeah the Zen is a bit limited in formats tooJun 08 05:16
DaemonFCalso the Sansa can be extended with micro SDHDC cardsJun 08 05:16
ThistleWebso can the zenJun 08 05:16
splosionseems silly to me. Supporting oggs and flacs is trivial and might just win the manufacturers a few more customersJun 08 05:16
ThistleWebthat was a reason I was down to those 2 as a choiceJun 08 05:16
DaemonFCthat's a feature worth making a decision onJun 08 05:16
DaemonFCcause you will run out of space on the playerJun 08 05:17
ThistleWebyepJun 08 05:17
DaemonFCif it's flash basedJun 08 05:17
DaemonFChard disks are bigger, but they bring their own problemsJun 08 05:17
DaemonFCI dropped an ipod and had the hard disk in it crashJun 08 05:17
ThistleWebI heard the reaosn Apple gave for not using ogg was that the iPod is hardware decoding, ogg is software so it'd affect battery life etc, not sure I believe that storyJun 08 05:17
DaemonFCthat's not trueJun 08 05:18
splosionyeah. By 2015 1tb hdds will cost about a dollar to make. Space won't be a problem in the long runJun 08 05:18
DaemonFCthey can implement Vorbis in hardware if they wantJun 08 05:18
DaemonFCin fact, the chipsets they use probably support VorbisJun 08 05:18
ThistleWebI reckon they dont want it, because they like peeps using their formatsJun 08 05:18
DaemonFCwouldn't surprise me if Apple locked it outJun 08 05:18
DaemonFCiPod chipsets have a WMA codec on themJun 08 05:18
DaemonFCbut Apple locks it outJun 08 05:18
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DaemonFCso they have just flat out locked competing formats that they players are capable of beforeJun 08 05:19
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ThistleWebwhen a format is well documented for developers, and free of patents. fees etc there's no logical reason for not implementing it rightJun 08 05:19
DaemonFCthere's no reason for them to have locked out WMA anywayJun 08 05:19
DaemonFCthe people that made the chips already paid the royaltiesJun 08 05:19
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DaemonFCso it wouldn't have even cost Apple anything to support themJun 08 05:20
DaemonFCApple does this stuff to lock you inJun 08 05:20
ThistleWebof courseJun 08 05:20
DaemonFCsame reason iTunes can encode MP3 but has been sabotaged with the reference encoderJun 08 05:20
DaemonFCLame is far betterJun 08 05:20
ThistleWebthey want to ensure that when your product needs replacing, that it's much cheaper to just go Apple againJun 08 05:21
DaemonFCand even beats iTunes AAC a lot of the timeJun 08 05:21
DaemonFCLame is what Winamp usesJun 08 05:21
DaemonFCthey paid royalties to the patent holdersJun 08 05:21
twitterAre you telling me that Apple has to pay a WMA tax when it makes music players?Jun 08 05:21
splosionthe more open the world becomes, people aren't going to be "locked-in" anymore so much as "locked out".Jun 08 05:21
DaemonFCand use LAME as their MP3 encoderJun 08 05:21
DaemonFCtwitter: Yes I amJun 08 05:21
DaemonFCthen they proceed to lock the player so it can't play themJun 08 05:21
twitterthere's no chipset maker that does not pay a WMA tax?Jun 08 05:21
DaemonFCnoJun 08 05:22
twitterwhat a fuck over by M$!Jun 08 05:22
DaemonFCif the chip has the codecJun 08 05:22
DaemonFCMicrosoft is paidJun 08 05:22
DaemonFCdoesn't matter if you lock it out before you put it in your playerJun 08 05:22
twitterYou would think that people would build chipsets other than wmaJun 08 05:22
splosionthank god these patents will expire eventuallyJun 08 05:22
DaemonFCtwitter: There's a demand for WMAJun 08 05:22
DaemonFCthat's why they support itJun 08 05:23
twitterI recall M$ pushing that crapJun 08 05:23
DaemonFCas sickening as even I find it, there is demandJun 08 05:23
twitterforbidding ogg in exchange for "plays for sure" stuffJun 08 05:23
DaemonFCLame MP3 has always surpassed either WMA or iTunes AACJun 08 05:23
twitterthey got busted in EU courtJun 08 05:23
DaemonFCthat's why they don't use LameJun 08 05:23
DaemonFCthen they compare files optimal for their codecJun 08 05:23
DaemonFCagainst the reference MP3Jun 08 05:24
splosionthe doom9 forums come in handy if you ever find yourself having to strip the DRM from wma filesJun 08 05:24
twitterso it's not so much "demand" as it is the usual M$ strong arm.Jun 08 05:24
DaemonFCno, there's people that actually buy DRM'd WMA and encode their CDs to non-0DRM WMAJun 08 05:24
twitterbasically, extortion - pay us WMA tax on everything or we will break your player on Winblows.Jun 08 05:24
ThistleWebit is still demand, it's just demanded by MicrosoftJun 08 05:24
DaemonFCI'm not telling you it's a good ideaJun 08 05:24
DaemonFCI'm saying people do itJun 08 05:24
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twitterI'm saying that's bullshit.  WMA and Plays for Sure are two of the biggest media failures ever.Jun 08 05:25
twitteriPod is far more successful.Jun 08 05:25
DaemonFCPlaysForSure is the most orwellian marketing campaign everJun 08 05:25
DaemonFCif anything, DRM makes sure it won't play under most situationsJun 08 05:25
twitterthat Apple has to pay WMA tax on every player is an outrage.Jun 08 05:25
ThistleWeba lot of tech is like that, where the name is the opposite of what it doesJun 08 05:26
ThistleWebfor the end user anywayJun 08 05:26
DaemonFCtwitter: Btw, the name of Windows Media DRM is JanusJun 08 05:26
ThistleWebJ.anus?Jun 08 05:26
twitterIf it is true, I can imagine them eliminating the WMA portion out of spite.Jun 08 05:26
ThistleWebdigital RIGHTS managementJun 08 05:26
DaemonFC http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/JanusJun 08 05:26
DaemonFCthe Roman GodJun 08 05:26
ThistleWebwindows genuine ADVANTAGEJun 08 05:26
DaemonFCone of themJun 08 05:26
twitterWindows has had several restrictions schemes, I don't care what they call it today.Jun 08 05:26
twitterno one wants itJun 08 05:27
EDavidBurgThistleWeb: well, it's protecting SOMEONE'S rights... just not yours.Jun 08 05:27
splosionThistleWeb: get the FACTSJun 08 05:27
twitteryou have a funny notion of rights, burgJun 08 05:27
ThistleWebexactly, Windows ain't built for the end user, it's built for their customers.....other companiesJun 08 05:27
DaemonFC"When Romulus and his men kidnapped the Sabine women, Janus caused a volcanic hot spring to erupt, resulting in the would-be attackers being buried alive in the deathly hot, brutal water and ash mixture of the rushing hot volcanic springs, that killed, burned or disfigured many of Romulus' men. Romulus was in awe of the god's power (Later on, however, Sabine and Rome became allies) In honor of this, the doors to his temples wereJun 08 05:27
DaemonFC kept open during war so that Janus himself might easily watch this happen. The doors and gates were closed in ceremony when peace was concluded."Jun 08 05:27
DaemonFCI think that's what inspired the nameJun 08 05:27
ThistleWebpeople have just been fooled into thinking THEY are Microsoft's customersJun 08 05:28
DaemonFChttp://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Janus_(DRM)Jun 08 05:28
twitterWhatever, I hope yet another anti-trust trial hoists M$ high for WMA taxing all music playersJun 08 05:28
DaemonFC"Note that Janus initially required supporting devices to not support non-Microsoft audio formats such as Ogg Vorbis, however this requirement has since been rescinded"Jun 08 05:29
EDavidBurgThistleWeb: anyone who pays a company is a customer. the more you pay me, the more i'm willing to do what you want.Jun 08 05:29
twitterYeah, right.Jun 08 05:29
DaemonFCprobably because nobody wants a device that can only play WMAJun 08 05:29
twitterWMA has burnt people who ripped to it.Jun 08 05:29
EDavidBurgtwitter: artists have rights. they have the right to release it with ogg, or drm free mp3s, or whatever they want to.Jun 08 05:30
twitterOnly the most ignorant of users would trust it.Jun 08 05:30
ThistleWebthe more I can do deals so you have no choice but to pay me, the less I have to listen to youJun 08 05:30
DaemonFCbtwJun 08 05:30
DaemonFCyou also pay MS their royalty for JanusJun 08 05:30
EDavidBurgThistleWeb: it's a business modelJun 08 05:30
DaemonFCwhen you buy a PlaysForSure playerJun 08 05:30
ThistleWebsome artists have choiceJun 08 05:30
DaemonFCincluding Cowon'sJun 08 05:30
ThistleWebsome are contracted to let their label make those deciisonsJun 08 05:30
splosionMakes me wonder why Microsoft bothered to make MTP. I mean, Mac users discover that Zunes don't work properly on Macs. "Oh I'll just have to buy a Windows computer then lol!" is not the outcome of that predicament]Jun 08 05:31
DaemonFChttp://www.theregister.co.uk/2005/10/27/accidental_music_monopoly_bid/Jun 08 05:31
ThistleWebsome artists in the UK were outraged that their music was being sold on BNP compilationsJun 08 05:31
EDavidBurgThistleWeb: so the artist have up their rights by signing a contract. pooh pooh for them.Jun 08 05:31
ThistleWebbut the BNP did it all legal with their record companiesJun 08 05:31
ThistleWebindeedyJun 08 05:31
DaemonFC"Microsoft had attempted to bully those portable music device makers hoping to cash in on iPod/iTunes popularity into using Windows Media Player software exclusively, or not at all, in their designs. This is a clear violation of the wrist-slapping that Judge CKK had administered at the conclusion of the company's anti-trust lawsuit, which she oversaw."Jun 08 05:32
twitterHere's the kind of "rights" and choices musicians actually have thanks to government granted spectrum monopolies http://archive.salon.com/tech/feature/2000/06/14/love/Jun 08 05:32
DaemonFCI would have chose "Not at all" if I was an MP3 player producerJun 08 05:32
ThistleWebthey're nearing the end of their "being monitored" phase in the US tooJun 08 05:32
splosionsomeone needs to send the recording industry a memo. It's fucking over for them. Seriously. they're just zombies at this pointJun 08 05:32
twitterthey also said, "no ogg"Jun 08 05:32
DaemonFCit wasn't just no Vorbis, it was NOTHING BUT WMAJun 08 05:33
twitterno anything but mp3, which is basically what we have today.Jun 08 05:33
DaemonFCno MP3 evenJun 08 05:33
EDavidBurgdon't get me wrong, DRM is annoying and i don't feel guilty circumventing it; but to call it bad or evil or against human rights is a bit much. artists/labels have rights too. They are distributing a product, and they have the right to do so.Jun 08 05:33
DaemonFCMP3 is still pretty goodJun 08 05:34
DaemonFCeven considering its ageJun 08 05:34
DaemonFCthe patents will expiure in a few years and Vorbis will go crawl off and dieJun 08 05:34
DaemonFCmy predictionJun 08 05:34
DaemonFC*expireJun 08 05:34
splosionEDavidBurg: I'd say that people should feel an ethical obligation to share culture. Culture isn't culture unless it's sharedJun 08 05:34
twitterBurg, you are a troll, but I can explain to you how accepting restrictions onto your computer is a violation of your rights and is much more important than entertainmentJun 08 05:35
splosionBut yeah, saying it's against human rights seems a bit silly when DRM is usually so easily circumventedJun 08 05:35
twitterwould you like that or are you here to waste time?Jun 08 05:35
twitterhmph.Jun 08 05:35
DaemonFCLame 3.99 is a huge improvementJun 08 05:36
DaemonFCI believe I'll use thisJun 08 05:36
EDavidBurgtwitter: there's a difference between being a troll and disagreeing with someone.Jun 08 05:36
twitteryes, the difference is you don't believe what you are saying.Jun 08 05:36
EDavidBurgDon't I?Jun 08 05:36
twitterI don't think so.Jun 08 05:36
EDavidBurgAnd what makes you think that?Jun 08 05:37
twitterYou are here talking about "artist rights" which is a tired and worn piece of industry bullshit.Jun 08 05:37
twitteralmost no one is dumb enough to fall for that one anymore.Jun 08 05:37
DaemonFCI have some WMA files left over from some promosJun 08 05:37
splosionEDavidBurg: I think artists have a right to distribute their stuff however they see fit. DRM included, if they're diots.The only proviso I'd make is that they don't try and stop others from eliminating that DRM and sharing it freely.Jun 08 05:37
grubbytwitter: speaking of trolling, your name is trademarked.Jun 08 05:38
ThistleWebthe organisations who use that line tend to be from record companies protecting their profitsJun 08 05:38
DaemonFCI don't ever intentionally encode to it thoughJun 08 05:38
ThistleWebthey screw both the artist and the fansJun 08 05:38
DaemonFCgrubby, just call him twatfaceJun 08 05:38
DaemonFChe can even trademark thatJun 08 05:38
twitterthey don't understand the full evil of digital restrictions but they do know better than to think musicians have choices or that record labels are looking out for artistsJun 08 05:38
twittergrubby.... do we have the annoying slashdot troll here tonight?Jun 08 05:39
twitterFC, you are yourselfJun 08 05:39
ThistleWebone thing that kinda lets the "pro artist" groups down is that they are not there fighting for a fair deal at the signing of the artists, to make sure they dont sign their lives away to the record companiesJun 08 05:39
DaemonFCspeaking of annoying Slashdot trollsJun 08 05:39
DaemonFCtwitterJun 08 05:39
DaemonFCyes, you ARE hereJun 08 05:39
DaemonFCbut we love youJun 08 05:39
DaemonFC:)Jun 08 05:39
splosiontwitter, is "twitter is trademarked " a slashdot meme now, then? I haven't seen that oneJun 08 05:40
twitterI'm sure droning on about FLAC and WinAMP bore you, FC.Jun 08 05:40
twitterWhat would you do without twitter?Jun 08 05:40
ThistleWebtessier, sleep?Jun 08 05:40
ThistleWebdamn tab completeJun 08 05:40
ThistleWebgot the wrong nameJun 08 05:40
twittersuch a dull job filling this place up with shit isn't it, FC?Jun 08 05:40
twitterHow many of these accounts are yours?Jun 08 05:41
splosionit kinda sucks having your username supplanted by some web2.0 start-up fadJun 08 05:41
twitterNot really.Jun 08 05:41
splosionwell I know it'd annoy me!Jun 08 05:42
twitterwhy?Jun 08 05:42
splosionbad experiences with usernames in the pastJun 08 05:42
splosionhad the same username as someone else once. mistaken identity. People hounded me because this other guy was a bit of a bastardJun 08 05:42
EDavidBurgsplosion: twitter was founded in 2006, the nick was registered in '07 :)Jun 08 05:43
splosionmakes me use a new username wherever I go nowJun 08 05:43
twitterYes, the powers that be do what they can to disrupt free software by destroying names - stealing web sites, spam and other brand dillution.Jun 08 05:43
EDavidBurgI've had the same nick since my dad made it for me in the AOL days. Oh, how horrid they were...Jun 08 05:43
twitterI've been using Slashdot since 1997 or so, thanks.Jun 08 05:43
twitterIt used to be the first thing Google pulled up.Jun 08 05:43
twitterthat was interesting because twitter is a common wordJun 08 05:44
EDavidBurgand now it lives in infamyJun 08 05:45
twitterMust have pissed off M$ to no end to see Slashdot user Twitter right there on the top of the page.Jun 08 05:45
twitterWhy do you say infamy?Jun 08 05:45
twittertrolls say silly things and they have modded me to oblivion but no one listens to that crap.Jun 08 05:46
EDavidBurgtwitter: i meant that a lot of real geeks dislike twitter because it attracts people like ashton kutcher who go "i use teh twitterz, lol i'm such a geek"Jun 08 05:47
twitterI would think normal people would not care one way or another.Jun 08 05:47
ThistleWebnatural selection has a way of weeding out peopleJun 08 05:47
ThistleWebif they adopt sommething and are clueless and boring, their followers / fans will soon drop offJun 08 05:48
ThistleWebthose who are interesting will see their followers grow, celeb or notJun 08 05:48
twitterthe whole thing reeks of broadcast to me.Jun 08 05:48
twittersilly gamesJun 08 05:49
twitterbut I have not used it, so I can't say if the service is worthwhileJun 08 05:49
ThistleWebI guess it's handy for media whoresJun 08 05:49
ThistleWebwho feel the need to update all the timeJun 08 05:49
ThistleWeb"I'm making a cuppa"Jun 08 05:49
ThistleWeb"I'm drinking a cuppa, damn, needed that"Jun 08 05:50
splosiontwitter: I use it for a few things. Wikileaks updates are goodJun 08 05:50
ThistleWeb"my biccy broke in my cuppa, don't you just hate that"Jun 08 05:50
splosionglyn moody is pretty active, a few others tooJun 08 05:51
ThistleWeb"my floating part of a biccy has been rescued"Jun 08 05:51
twitterRichard Stallman warns that you can't ignore politics.  I can ignore Twitter without worry.Jun 08 05:52
twitterAnd Fox and all of the things associated with http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ashton_KutcherJun 08 05:52
DaemonFCif you ignore politics, hippies get into officeJun 08 05:52
EDavidBurgrichard stallman warns a lot of things.Jun 08 05:52
ThistleWebseems plenty on Slashdot also ignore twitter tooJun 08 05:53
DaemonFCdid Richard Stallman ever recommend a beard conditionerJun 08 05:53
splosionyeah. There's not really anything on twitter you can't get to elsewhere. it's just a bit faster than rss and blogsJun 08 05:53
DaemonFCinquiring minds want to knowJun 08 05:53
twitterYou sound proud of these thingsJun 08 05:53
EDavidBurgDaemonFC: he washes it?Jun 08 05:53
DaemonFCgood pointJun 08 05:53
twitterGates does not.Jun 08 05:54
twitterRMS doesJun 08 05:54
EDavidBurghe at least looks healthier than alan cox.Jun 08 05:54
twitterfunny how trolls turn that one around.Jun 08 05:54
EDavidBurgalan moore is pretty scary tooJun 08 05:54
DaemonFCboth of them look like they're about one extra value meal away from a major myocardial infarctionJun 08 05:54
DaemonFC:)Jun 08 05:54
EDavidBurgtwitter: commenting on people's beards is considered trolling...?Jun 08 05:55
twitteryou are trying to be insultingJun 08 05:55
splosionone day I want to grow myself a stallman beard. Personally, I think it's awesomeJun 08 05:55
twitterseems to be all you are good atJun 08 05:55
EDavidBurgoh, come on. who doesn't poke fun at rms's beard?Jun 08 05:56
DaemonFCso do I, birds can nest in it and I can teach them all about free softwareJun 08 05:56
DaemonFCand why people should lose their jobs to further my political agendaJun 08 05:56
splosionnow that's trollingJun 08 05:56
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DaemonFCspeaking of Ooga Booga assholesJun 08 05:56
DaemonFChere's one nowJun 08 05:56
EDavidBurgso you've met?Jun 08 05:57
DaemonFCnow this guy farts in the bathtub and bites the bubbleJun 08 05:57
DaemonFCI'm fairly sure of itJun 08 05:57
twitterI think shestowitz needs to ban a range of IP addressesJun 08 05:57
p_quarlesnot me, I hope...Jun 08 05:57
DaemonFCindeedJun 08 05:57
EDavidBurg42.x.x.x-9001.x.x.xJun 08 05:57
p_quarlesDaemonFC: well, hello to you tooJun 08 05:58
ThistleWebtwitter, and you think banning an IP address works? Most people use dynamic IPs so they change regularlyJun 08 05:58
ThistleWebyou can drop and renew from the pool anytimeJun 08 05:58
EDavidBurgThistleWeb: you could ban an ISP's rangeJun 08 05:58
DaemonFCtwitter doesn't think in between RMS speechesJun 08 05:58
ThistleWebthat IP is banned but you're backJun 08 05:58
DaemonFCit lets too much truth take holdJun 08 05:58
ThistleWebso you ban a lot of innocents tooJun 08 05:59
twitterI'm not sure how many nodes you bastards have but swatting them away one by one would be a good ideaJun 08 05:59
twitter:)Jun 08 05:59
splosiontwitter: roy can't arbitrarily block IP addresses. it would be used as a weapon against him. "Roy h8s free speech!!!"Jun 08 05:59
ThistleWebplenty of forums use a temporary ban on an IPJun 08 05:59
DaemonFCp_quarles: I have no idea how involved with Ubuntu you are besides the forumsJun 08 05:59
ThistleWebif peeps get a few days of blockage they assume it's permanant and give upJun 08 06:00
twitterThe chances of hitting an innocent, are about 40 in 500,000,000Jun 08 06:00
EDavidBurgeveryone knows p_quarles is a nazi modJun 08 06:00
DaemonFCbut can you tell me what kind of crack whoever broke the audio system in Jaunty was smoking?Jun 08 06:00
ThistleWebwithout realising it;'s notJun 08 06:00
ThistleWebinteresting ratio, where did you get it from?Jun 08 06:00
DaemonFCEDavidBurg: Yes I knowJun 08 06:00
DaemonFC"CoC!!! OMG!!!!111111!!!1"Jun 08 06:00
*EDavidBurg starts a res center thread on p_quarles Jun 08 06:00
DaemonFCChain of CocksuckersJun 08 06:00
p_quarlesDaemonFC: it was cheap stuff they got from someone who was subbing for the usual guy?Jun 08 06:01
twitterestimated number of people who actually want to visit BN IRC to the number of web usersJun 08 06:01
EDavidBurgDaemonFC: i'm guessing you got a large infraction?Jun 08 06:01
ThistleWebkJun 08 06:01
DaemonFCfuck emJun 08 06:01
DaemonFCI'd buy the next 20 Vistas before I'd try another UbuntuJun 08 06:01
twitteryou guys are not hiding much tonight are you?Jun 08 06:01
DaemonFCthankfully there's distros that workJun 08 06:01
twitterso are any of you charter memebers of the GNAA?Jun 08 06:02
EDavidBurgtwitter: who are "us guys" and why should we be hiding?Jun 08 06:02
twitterFC, I'm asking youJun 08 06:02
twitterno, Burg, you should be bannedJun 08 06:02
DaemonFCwhat exactly would that be?Jun 08 06:02
DaemonFCI don't follow youJun 08 06:02
twitterthat is, if you are not FCJun 08 06:02
twitterin that case, you should be banned twiceJun 08 06:02
twitterI'm sure you follow me, FC.Jun 08 06:03
DaemonFCto Ubuntu and backJun 08 06:03
DaemonFC:)Jun 08 06:03
ThistleWebI can imagine your ideal world twitter, consisting of you on an island with a chosen few others and a machine gun to kill anyone else who gets nearJun 08 06:03
grubbyI admit it - p_quarles, EDavidBurg, DaemonFC and I are all the same person!Jun 08 06:03
ThistleWebeveryone is a trollJun 08 06:03
ThistleWebeveryone should be bannedJun 08 06:04
DaemonFCUbuntu is going to be my fill in for all swear words from now onJun 08 06:04
p_quarlesThistleWeb: +1Jun 08 06:04
DaemonFCsee if I can break myself of themJun 08 06:04
ThistleWebas long as I accuse them first, then if they accuse me, it's a reactionJun 08 06:04
splosionDaemonFC: what problems did you have with your audio?Jun 08 06:04
DaemonFCsplosion: They broke the kernel AND Pulse AudioJun 08 06:04
EDavidBurgtwitter: what distro do you use? just curiousJun 08 06:04
DaemonFCthat takes skillJun 08 06:04
splosionI had to do a few things to fix pulseaudio when I upgraded to JauntyJun 08 06:04
splosionapparently it's not broken in Debian, thoughJun 08 06:05
ThistleWebI understand why BN attracts trolls and astroturfers, I understand why peeps here are sensitive to them but some appear to be rather over sensitive to the point of crying wolfJun 08 06:05
DaemonFCsplosion: To fix Jaunty you have to build your own kernel and use Luke Ylavich's PPA for the latest Pulse AudioJun 08 06:05
DaemonFCboth are broken and both make the other problem worseJun 08 06:05
DaemonFCand fuck if I know what they didJun 08 06:06
DaemonFCbut as I user, I should not be having to rebuild parts of the OS around me to see to it that they workJun 08 06:06
splosionwell I've heard all those reports, but my audio needs admittedly aren't very complicated. works fine for meJun 08 06:06
twitter"I understand why BN attracts trolls and astroturfers" do tell.  Why would anyone pay for people to bullshit here?Jun 08 06:07
DaemonFCswitch it to timer scheduling and log out and in, if that won't fuck it royally, nothing willJun 08 06:07
DaemonFCand you are one of the lucky unaffectedJun 08 06:07
splosionyeah I realise that too. Not trying to spin it. UF has like ten billion threads with people complaining about pulseaudioJun 08 06:08
ThistleWebtwitter, read BN and you'll see. You know this of course and seek me to fight with you, so you can again call me a trollJun 08 06:08
DaemonFCtimer scheduling is what Mac OS X and Vista have been doing for a whileJun 08 06:08
*ThistleWeb ain't bitingJun 08 06:08
DaemonFCFedora 10 doesJun 08 06:08
DaemonFCand Mandriva 2009 Spring does tooJun 08 06:08
DaemonFCLinux is basically catching up to wherre Microsoft was 3 years ago and where Apple was about 5 years agoJun 08 06:09
EDavidBurgsplosion: UF has 10 billion threads complaining about EVERYTHING. UF is a bunch of crybabies.Jun 08 06:09
twitterNo, you just acted like someone who knew something. ThistleWebJun 08 06:09
DaemonFCwith audio systemsJun 08 06:09
ThistleWebwe all know somethingJun 08 06:09
ThistleWebwe all know a lot of somethingsJun 08 06:09
EDavidBurgThistleWeb: not all of usJun 08 06:09
splosionEDavidBurg: true thatJun 08 06:09
grubbyThistleWeb: there's a certain person in this room that seems to be lacking in that departmentJun 08 06:10
EDavidBurggrubby: i love you too <333Jun 08 06:10
DaemonFCnow I'm just recomminding Fedora or Mandriva to people who ask me about LinuxJun 08 06:10
twitterlet me on the secret, grubby.Jun 08 06:10
DaemonFCthey work far better than UbuntuJun 08 06:10
EDavidBurgtwitter: he meant me, we're loversJun 08 06:10
grubbytwitter: I wonder who!Jun 08 06:11
twitterI'm wondering what you trolls know that's worthwhile.Jun 08 06:11
DaemonFCother than that Ubuntu has set desktop Linux back yearsJun 08 06:12
ThistleWebI understand why people on Slashdot react the way they do to you twitterJun 08 06:12
splosionanyone with a combative posting style will always get hated on and trolled. it's just a fact of lifeJun 08 06:12
DaemonFCand is only popular cause XP sucks as bad as it doesJun 08 06:12
twitterso, you guys get hated and trolled alot?Jun 08 06:12
grubbySurprisingly, no matter how of an asshole I try to be, not often.Jun 08 06:12
twitterI mean, you are here to say stupid shit like, Ubuntu sucks, Linux sucks, RMS does not take baths etc.Jun 08 06:13
EDavidBurgtwitter: how many times have you called someone a troll tonight?Jun 08 06:13
p_quarlestwitter: I think you're really meJun 08 06:13
twitterI'm not sure how many of you are really here, so I can't tellJun 08 06:13
ThistleWebEDavidBurg, more accurate may be how many people twitter has accused of being a trollJun 08 06:13
EDavidBurgtwitter: we're all talking fast enough we can't be sharing nicks...Jun 08 06:13
twitterGenerally, grubby, when people act like assholes, they get ignored.Jun 08 06:14
ThistleWebprobably most of the people talking at any one timeJun 08 06:14
EDavidBurg/ignore twitterJun 08 06:14
EruaranWhats going on here thenJun 08 06:14
twitterRight Burg, so there are at least two of you.Jun 08 06:14
twitterbig troll fest.Jun 08 06:14
EruaranhmmJun 08 06:14
grubbyYep, like I said, I'm really half this channel, you just don't know itJun 08 06:14
EDavidBurgtwitter: sigh. i guess I should have expected a conspiracy theory out of you...Jun 08 06:14
grubbyActually, I'm the majority of people you've met on the internetJun 08 06:15
ThistleWebhey Eruaran welcome backJun 08 06:15
EruarantyJun 08 06:15
ThistleWebwelcome to the swamp pit which has a troll infestation.....apparentlyJun 08 06:15
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ThistleWebhey, it could be worse, twitter could be a moderator on the channelJun 08 06:16
ThistleWebkick anyone who disagreesJun 08 06:17
twitterThat's not a bad idea ThistleWebJun 08 06:17
ThistleWebyeah it does have an appeal to the paranoidJun 08 06:17
twitterI'd just knock rude people like you though.Jun 08 06:17
ThistleWeblolJun 08 06:17
p_quarlesThistleWeb: yeah, stop being rude... oh waitJun 08 06:17
twitterI'm not sure why Roy does not.Jun 08 06:18
grubbytwitter: stop trollingJun 08 06:18
EDavidBurgaccess list says RS and [H]omer are the only ops.Jun 08 06:18
EDavidBurgtoo bad.Jun 08 06:18
ThistleWeblmaoJun 08 06:18
DaemonFCthats OK, I'm sure theres an orifice appropriate for a retractable batonJun 08 06:18
Eruarandont feed the trollsJun 08 06:18
DaemonFCbut I couldn't possibly do thatJun 08 06:18
DaemonFCI'm evolvedJun 08 06:18
DaemonFC:PJun 08 06:19
EDavidBurgFor my next trick: OMG MICROSOFT WINDOWS IS TEH BEST!!!Jun 08 06:19
EDavidBurg(I kid :D )Jun 08 06:19
ThistleWeblolJun 08 06:19
ThistleWebwho knows, maybe it'll become a game to bait twitter with comments to see how long it takes before the troll accusation is unleashedJun 08 06:20
EDavidBurgEruaran: I'm a bit peckish, got any saltwater taffy?Jun 08 06:21
EruaranummJun 08 06:21
Eruaranso umm whats the difference between baiting and trolling ?Jun 08 06:21
twitternone, they've been at it for a few hoursJun 08 06:21
ThistleWebnot sure, I don't have trolling on the mind muchJun 08 06:21
grubbyschestowitz: ban us already, damnitJun 08 06:21
EDavidBurggrubby: we all want you out of hereJun 08 06:22
EDavidBurgp_quarles: just likes to break pulseaudioJun 08 06:22
grubbyEDavidBurg: I know, I'm trolling like crazyJun 08 06:22
EDavidBurggrubby: trollJun 08 06:22
*mib_qj04jo has quit ("http://www.mibbit.com ajax IRC Client")Jun 08 06:22
grubbyyou hurt my feelings EDavidBurg, apologize!Jun 08 06:22
EDavidBurggrubby: trolls don't have feelingsJun 08 06:22
grubbyGood pointJun 08 06:22
splosiontroll's remorse?Jun 08 06:23
*grubby starts sobbingJun 08 06:23
ThistleWebwhen ya accuse every other person, your message loses impact and invites mockingJun 08 06:23
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EDavidBurgmib_qj04jo: helloJun 08 06:23
twitterThere's only one thing that make me happy here.  How much money Bill Gates is wasting on this crap.Jun 08 06:23
EDavidBurgThistleWeb: trollJun 08 06:24
grubbymib_qj04jo: Is it ok if I call you qj04j0 for short?Jun 08 06:24
EDavidBurgtwitter: explainJun 08 06:24
ThistleWebEDavidBurg, aww tyJun 08 06:24
grubbytwitter: Yes, we work for Microsoft ($$$$$$$$$$)Jun 08 06:24
twitterin one way or another, I'm sureJun 08 06:24
twitterbut I'm also sure they don't pay wellJun 08 06:24
EDavidBurgtwitter: does MS have some association with freenode that it'd be costing them money?Jun 08 06:25
twitterjust you guysJun 08 06:25
EDavidBurgwait, I'm bill gates?Jun 08 06:25
ThistleWebc'mon guys, paranoia is a serious medical conditionJun 08 06:25
*EDavidBurg buys a ferrari and crashes itJun 08 06:25
twitterplease ask for raises, every week.Jun 08 06:25
twitter:)Jun 08 06:26
EDavidBurgtwitter: oh, i get it. you were implying we work for microsoft.Jun 08 06:26
p_quarlesI work for Novell's black ops division, actuallyJun 08 06:26
p_quarlesoops wrong windowJun 08 06:26
splosiontwitter: BN has a lot of haters in the Linux community too. hell, just saying you prefer $desktop_env over $other_desktop_env is enough to get you hateJun 08 06:26
twitterlolJun 08 06:26
EDavidBurgsplosion: you're one of those GNOME fans, aren't you?Jun 08 06:26
twitterpeople who give away their sofware don't waste time with trollingJun 08 06:26
EruaranI prefer $other_other_desktop_envJun 08 06:26
*EDavidBurg glares at splosion Jun 08 06:26
EDavidBurgtwitter: you'd be surprisedJun 08 06:27
twitternot reallyJun 08 06:27
EDavidBurgtrolls come in all shapes and sizesJun 08 06:27
EruaranThere's only one thing I say to someone who forks out $$$ of their hard earned cash for inferior software.Jun 08 06:27
ThistleWebgiven BN is all about exposing secrets, paranoia is a natural state of mind the longer you spend here it seemsJun 08 06:28
EruaranSucker.Jun 08 06:28
EDavidBurgfrom every community, defending every cause or just hating on another causeJun 08 06:28
twitterM$ is spread thin, eh?Jun 08 06:28
twitterbreaking point, ha haJun 08 06:29
splosionEDavidBurg: I'm not saying with DE I use. Let's just say I prefer boxopenJun 08 06:29
ThistleWeblol @ boxopenJun 08 06:29
twitterhaving to crap up every forum, every IRC group.  it must be taxing.Jun 08 06:29
p_quarlesactually, it's tax-deductibleJun 08 06:30
ThistleWebwe could go with the common theme and accuse you of being a troll, or we could accept that you know it's openbox and all chuckleJun 08 06:30
splosionhey man I've gone out of my way to not involved in the troll conversation. don't use that as ammunition to call me a troll!Jun 08 06:31
ThistleWeblol, my badJun 08 06:31
ThistleWebsorryJun 08 06:31
splosionnot get*Jun 08 06:31
EDavidBurgsplosion: only a troll would stay out of conversations on hot button topics!Jun 08 06:32
ThistleWebhey, I chose to lolJun 08 06:32
ThistleWebEDavidBurg, because of what BN does, it's almost all hot button topicsJun 08 06:33
EDavidBurgonly a troll would join #bnJun 08 06:33
*EDavidBurg glares at twitter Jun 08 06:33
ThistleWebso it would seemJun 08 06:33
EDavidBurghe joined #bn, after all.Jun 08 06:33
EDavidBurgmust be a troll.Jun 08 06:33
ThistleWebso did weJun 08 06:33
EDavidBurgshit, you're rightJun 08 06:33
grubbyThistleWeb: well, we already know we're trolls, he told us soJun 08 06:33
*EDavidBurg thinks for a secondJun 08 06:34
*DaemonFC wonders if p_quarles is tax deductibleJun 08 06:34
*EDavidBurg gets distracted by an rms speech and stops thinking for a whileJun 08 06:34
*EDavidBurg deducts p_quarles from his 1040zJun 08 06:34
ThistleWebso we can take it for granted that we're all trolls, is there any point wasting time accusing and discussing the obvious?Jun 08 06:34
*DaemonFC ties his wrists with ipod earphone wires cause it's funJun 08 06:34
splosionall right, fine. I'm a system administrator for a fortune 500 company working with enterprise business solutions with over 40 years of experience in computing and in my professional opinion linux just isn't ready for prime time. Dependency hell. Lack of hardware support. It's just an amateur OS.  now THAT's proper trollingJun 08 06:34
*p_quarles clapsJun 08 06:35
EDavidBurgsplosion: trollJun 08 06:35
splosionthanksJun 08 06:36
EDavidBurgmsg chanserv op #boycottnovell EDavidBurgJun 08 06:36
EDavidBurgwrong windowJun 08 06:36
ThistleWebIt'd be interesting to check the IRC logs to find the most popular wordsJun 08 06:36
EDavidBurgThistleWeb: let me guess: "EDavidBurg", "is", "a" and "troll"Jun 08 06:36
ThistleWeb"todays BN IRC was brought to you by the word troll"Jun 08 06:37
DaemonFCa lot of distributions are amateur and basement dweller qualityJun 08 06:38
DaemonFCbut there are a few that work wellJun 08 06:38
twitteryou like Vista, FCJun 08 06:38
DaemonFCdon't pass judgement on Linux based soley on an encounter with UbuntuJun 08 06:38
twittertalk about amateurJun 08 06:38
DaemonFCor you're missing the ones that really do workJun 08 06:38
splosionhttp://www.techspot.com/news/34999-microsoft-bans-xp-on-hybrid-storage-netbooks.htmlJun 08 06:38
EDavidBurgtwitter: what distro do you use?Jun 08 06:39
DaemonFCprobalby BLAGJun 08 06:39
DaemonFC:PJun 08 06:39
twitterFC knowsJun 08 06:39
DaemonFCor StallmanOSJun 08 06:39
DaemonFCthat thing they did based on UbuntuJun 08 06:39
DaemonFCwhere they took out all the bits that make it workJun 08 06:39
DaemonFCat allJun 08 06:39
DaemonFCand said "Now it's free"Jun 08 06:39
twitterThat would be Vista's removal of XP drivers.  ha haJun 08 06:39
DaemonFCdon't forget useless!Jun 08 06:39
DaemonFCXP drivers mainly work in VistaJun 08 06:40
EDavidBurgso have you put me on ignore, twitter, or are you just doing it manually?Jun 08 06:40
twitterWhy don't you try out GNUSense for yourself, FC.Jun 08 06:40
DaemonFCXP X64 drivers mainly work in Vista X64Jun 08 06:40
DaemonFCGnuisanceJun 08 06:40
EDavidBurgtwitter: i thought it was gNewSenseJun 08 06:40
DaemonFCGnuthanksJun 08 06:40
DaemonFCyeah, they even ripped out OpenGLJun 08 06:41
DaemonFCit's totally bustedJun 08 06:41
twitterBasically, I'm looking at web pages and other news.  Every few minutes I come back here and say something to keep you idiots going.Jun 08 06:41
EDavidBurgI bet he uses SLEDJun 08 06:41
EDavidBurgp_quarles: should used RHELJun 08 06:41
ThistleWebeventually hardware will be fine with something pure like stallmans ideal distros, and enough popular formats will be open too, but we're a long way from thatJun 08 06:41
grubbyp_quarles: and oracleJun 08 06:41
*DaemonFC slaps some sense into p_quarles with a Fedora DVDJun 08 06:42
ThistleWebtwitter, aww you love us that much that you're going to the effort to say things for usJun 08 06:42
*ThistleWeb is touchedJun 08 06:42
splosionsome intel-windriver stuff here http://www.businessweek.com/technology/content/jun2009/tc2009065_713999.htm?chan=technology_technology+index+page_top+storiesJun 08 06:42
*EDavidBurg touches ThistleWeb Jun 08 06:44
EDavidBurguhhhJun 08 06:44
EDavidBurgwrong window?Jun 08 06:44
DaemonFCI really have no idea what this Vista driver issue is supposed to beJun 08 06:44
DaemonFCI've never had trouble with itJun 08 06:44
splosioneww. Videos crammed with adverts. Nice http://www.itvt.com/story/4688/tremor-media-unveils-suite-stream-interactive-ad-formatsJun 08 06:45
DaemonFCWindows Updates will offer you drivers for anything you're likely to haveJun 08 06:45
ThistleWebif you pick your hardware carefully, checking firmware versions etc and accept that many websites etc will be unavailable in full to you, then a totally free RMS style distro can work for youJun 08 06:45
ThistleWebRMS himself understands this and lives by itJun 08 06:45
splosionThistleWeb: Linux in general used to be like that anywayJun 08 06:45
ThistleWebit used to be, yesJun 08 06:45
EDavidBurgtwitter: I'm inviting you to a channel, you should comeJun 08 06:46
twitterI'm already hereJun 08 06:46
twitterwhat's on your mind?Jun 08 06:46
ThistleWebit's compatible with most stuff now, even if you have to use the occasional proprietary blob to get some functionJun 08 06:46
DaemonFCyeah, then the next kernel breaks itJun 08 06:47
DaemonFCand maybe the manufacturer is late with a new driverJun 08 06:47
*zer0c00l has quit ("My computer is going down")Jun 08 06:47
DaemonFCor says fuck it and leavesJun 08 06:47
ThistleWebsometimes I forget when something is closed and my Mint has many of them enabled by defaultJun 08 06:47
splosionI don't think I could go full-on rms-mode just yet. The guy wgets his webpages. Just not for me. The more people realise there's money to be made in opening up hardware specs and media formats, though, it'll become possible. EventuallyJun 08 06:47
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ThistleWebit's great to look forward to the day when a truely open PC can do everything but it's not todayJun 08 06:48
DaemonFCthat day isn't todayJun 08 06:48
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twitterthat's better.  right click ignore.Jun 08 06:48
ThistleWebyou have to accept compromises in range and quality to live thatJun 08 06:48
DaemonFCthankfully demand for MP3 is so strong that everything supports itJun 08 06:49
DaemonFCbetter it than what could be thereJun 08 06:49
splosionThistleWeb: the number of people I see on UF who advocate nuking your installation of Linux just to get media codecs to work out the box is insane. is it really so hard to install the damned codecs yourself?Jun 08 06:49
twitter:)Jun 08 06:49
ThistleWebsplosion, I've had mixed issues with Ubuntu with multiverse codecsJun 08 06:49
ThistleWebnot all that keen on the Ubuntu way, but then the last I used Ubuntu was 7.04 I think, so it's probs easier and more reliable nowJun 08 06:50
splosionreally? shame. I'm moving back to debian soon anyhooJun 08 06:50
ThistleWebI quite liked Debian when I ran it for a while, but not sure I could live with it full timeJun 08 06:51
twitterholy crap http://www.mercurynews.com/topstories/ci_12541606Jun 08 06:51
splosionit's the distro I learnt linux with. I feel it's my spiritual home. I feel dirty to be using ubuntuJun 08 06:52
EDavidBurgtwitter: i bet it was an MS ordered hitJun 08 06:53
ThistleWebeveryone has their favs, the first one that worked with all my hardware was PCLinuxOSJun 08 06:53
ThistleWebnot hot on .rpm distros now but that was a good unJun 08 06:53
DaemonFCFedora isn't hard to add codecs toJun 08 06:54
DaemonFCRPM Fusion works pretty well reallyJun 08 06:54
ThistleWebI also grew out of liking KDE tooJun 08 06:54
splosionnever seriously tried any of the RPM distros tbhJun 08 06:54
ThistleWebthe "rpm hell" that many talk about, I never had that. I think its kinda like the BSOD which is mostly a thing of the past nowJun 08 06:55
ThistleWebPCLinuxOS does use Synaptic, it works well and looks sweet. It's repos are a fraction of Debians, but then, what distro's repos aint?Jun 08 06:56
splosionI still see the "dependency hell" memes rolled out from time to time for the debian distros, too. It's kinda pathetic, reallyJun 08 06:57
ThistleWebI've kinda been drawn towards .deb distros because of good dep handling but I think it's rare in any distro nowJun 08 06:58
splosionIn practice they're all pretty similar I guess. Even gentoo's emerge performs essentially the same purposeJun 08 06:58
ThistleWebLinux as an overall project has grown up a lot since those daysJun 08 06:59
tessierThistleWeb: You were looking for me sometime over the last couple of days?Jun 08 06:59
ThistleWebtessier, nah sorry, my tab complete was too quick and added your nick instead of twitter and I realised after I hit enterJun 08 07:00
ThistleWebnice to meet you all the sameJun 08 07:00
tessierah okJun 08 07:00
tessierLikewise :)Jun 08 07:00
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ThistleWebI think most Linux users tend to drift for a while between distros (and apps) before they settle on what feels right for them, but they'll always have some sweet memories and a sorta "first love" type of a thing for a distro they dont use anymoreJun 08 07:02
splosionayeJun 08 07:04
ThistleWebwell, most Linux power usersJun 08 07:06
ThistleWebnormal users will stick with what distro is installed becuase they dont have the interest or the skills to swap distrosJun 08 07:06
splosionI think a lot of the people who hate on Linux by saying it's too difficult for the masses are actually Windows powerusers who baulk at the idea of becoming a n00b all over againJun 08 07:07
ThistleWebsplosion, exactlyJun 08 07:07
splosion"But it took me years to learn all those registry editor hacks!!!"Jun 08 07:07
ThistleWebthey spend years building knowledge of Windows quirks and flaws, as well as how to fix them, where to go, what apps to use etcJun 08 07:07
ThistleWebthen complain when Linux wont act the sameJun 08 07:07
ThistleWebtheiy are back to being users again, and have to learn new stuffJun 08 07:08
ThistleWebLinux is very similar on the surfaceJun 08 07:08
mib_qj04jowhich is why they dont changeJun 08 07:08
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ThistleWebunderneath it's a very different animalJun 08 07:08
splosionit goes back to the idea that people are so pathetically lazy and stupid that the merest hint of "learning" makes their brains explode.In real life people just aren't that lameJun 08 07:08
EDavidBurgThistleWeb: s/Linux/KDE and GNOME/Jun 08 07:09
ThistleWebnot only that but it's a different mindset too. The Windows & Apple world is a simple "spend money to get a program or service" one, where FOSS is a whole political  / philisophical one to get why it's differentJun 08 07:10
DaemonFCI know my way around most operating systems and they all do things to abuse the userJun 08 07:10
ThistleWebEDavidBurg, nah, I dont use either KDE or GnomeJun 08 07:10
DaemonFC:)Jun 08 07:10
mib_qj04joalso depends on what you define as power users these days.Jun 08 07:10
ThistleWebI'd class a power user who has the skill set to be a home adminJun 08 07:11
splosionthat's just it. We're getting to the point where the only thing new users are going to have to learn is the sodding Gnome Menu. Any dimwit can work out how to use such a tool. There are some challenges still to meet, but eventually, that will be the only thing holding back new users. People are going to need to find new excusesJun 08 07:11
ThistleWebsomeone who can clean the PC, fix issues like drivers, reinstall OS's when neededJun 08 07:11
mib_qj04jothats one, but in business a power user is one who uses word processors and spreads sheets using advanced featuresJun 08 07:12
mib_qj04joI fixed a friends PC yesterday, she is 16, and in facebook, messenger, phone texting she is a power user as wellJun 08 07:12
mib_qj04joI asked her what OS she used, "I Dunno"Jun 08 07:12
ThistleWebit's about the environment tooJun 08 07:12
ThistleWebI'd class an admin and power user as more or less the same thing in most cases but you're right it's a hazy definition that could have many meanings depending on the environmentJun 08 07:13
DaemonFCit doesn't really take a lot of effort to deal with WindowsJun 08 07:14
ThistleWeba Norton subscription and you're good to goJun 08 07:14
ThistleWeblmaoJun 08 07:14
mib_qj04joadmin is a power user in administration,Jun 08 07:14
DaemonFCNorton?Jun 08 07:14
DaemonFCfuck noJun 08 07:14
mib_qj04joCAD designer may be power user in CAD softwareJun 08 07:14
splosionI think a big problem is that if you search for "free apps" in google you'll be led through a series of clickfarms, scam sites, and useless trialware apps, greyware apps, malware apps and wareware appapps. It leads people to equate "free" with "completely useless"Jun 08 07:14
mib_qj04jomore to the point, they dont appoint value to something thats freeJun 08 07:15
ThistleWebsplosion, not sure about that, "free" does make people think of "cost"Jun 08 07:15
ThistleWebif its free of cost, it's freeJun 08 07:15
ThistleWebeven if it's closedJun 08 07:16
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ThistleWebwhich is not the "free" we meanJun 08 07:16
mib_qj04joIt can be said, that if you have to explain what the freedom is, you dont have itJun 08 07:16
splosionwell considering that pretty much all libre software is also freebeer as well, I guess that can confuse people about what it all meansJun 08 07:16
ThistleWebunfortunatly, to explain free software you have to get into politics / philosphy to some degreeJun 08 07:17
mib_qj04joespecially when "free" software can also be paid for !Jun 08 07:17
DaemonFChttp://img26.imageshack.us/img26/8559/76444070.pngJun 08 07:17
ThistleWebwhich is where it can often get preachyJun 08 07:17
DaemonFCAVGJun 08 07:17
DaemonFC:PJun 08 07:17
splosionI hate that. If you bring up the subject of software freedom you'll always get "Linux isn't a religion!/stop being a zealot!" type messages from people completely missing the pointJun 08 07:18
ThistleWebat least Microsoft and Apple both compete in the same headspaceJun 08 07:18
ThistleWebpeople understand that headspaceJun 08 07:18
ThistleWebwe're on a different headspace altogetherJun 08 07:18
mib_qj04joits not really freedom that is the issue, or even quality its what was said earlier, its about users allready entrenched in one method and not willing to change.Jun 08 07:19
mib_qj04joYou wont get them, you need to get new starters.Jun 08 07:19
mib_qj04joor be exactly the same as MS so they dont feel any pain in the change.Jun 08 07:19
mib_qj04jothats why MS is so keep on keeping Linux out of Netbooks, because they are great for kidsJun 08 07:20
splosionmost windows users I know have a love/hate relationship with Microsoft. Mostly hate. But they've lived with it for so long, they're prepared to accept its inadequacies.Jun 08 07:20
mib_qj04jokeep /keenJun 08 07:20
mib_qj04joexactlyJun 08 07:20
splosionmib_qj04jo: i think we're gonna see quite an epic battle for netbooks this yearJun 08 07:21
ThistleWebit's normal to have to reboot all the timeJun 08 07:21
ThistleWebapparentlyJun 08 07:21
ThistleWebit's just the way PCs areJun 08 07:22
splosionthings like this http://www.techspot.com/news/34999-microsoft-bans-xp-on-hybrid-storage-netbooks.html tell me microsoft are shooting themselves in the footJun 08 07:22
mib_qj04jonetbooks are perfect for the teens, they can facebook and text and mesage, and linux is perfect for that.Jun 08 07:22
ThistleWebMicrosoft do very well at (illegally) ensuring that the customers never see anything other than Windows so it becomes an inseparable part of their PCJun 08 07:23
splosionand another thing! when a Windows user's computer borks, he says "my computer is broken". When tried Linux instead and it borks, he says "Linux broke my computer"Jun 08 07:23
mib_qj04joand teen dont know about malware and stuff, they use limewire and their pcs are full of crapJun 08 07:23
ThistleWebso Windows flaws are just part of life as a PC userJun 08 07:23
splosions/tried/he tries/Jun 08 07:23
ThistleWebmib_qj04jo, I wonder how many of todays teens will be in blackmailable positions in 20yrs because of the spyware on their Windows PCs todayJun 08 07:24
splosion"It’s also a bummer for NEC who recently unveiled their hybrid LaVie Light netbook in Japan. Vista is too resource intensive for Intel’s Atom CPU and Windows 7 is still 4-5 months away, so it looks like companies will either play ball with Microsoft’s XP requirements or fall back on Linux for their hybrid devices."Jun 08 07:24
mib_qj04joyes, exactly ThistleWeb, alotJun 08 07:25
ThistleWebpeeps already regret stoned / drunk myspace stuff their employers find out about years down the lineJun 08 07:25
mib_qj04joyes, and this is a 16 Yo girl, when i get her pc going and opened MSN she had 500+ messages and 470 friends !!! (i wonder what they want ??)Jun 08 07:26
splosionit does strike me as odd how people just accept that they need to buy a whole bunch of apps just to make sure their computer works properly. But then I guess I used to think like that too when I used Windows stillJun 08 07:26
ThistleWebtry to rewrite history, delete stuff but it's always out there, being shared aroundJun 08 07:26
ThistleWebor peeps who are talked into doing home made porn for bf / gf they later split with and becomes publicJun 08 07:27
mib_qj04jothere are whole web sites for that (so im told) LOLJun 08 07:27
ThistleWebyeah, Windows is funny like that. You install it and go online with what Microsoft gave you, you're screwed in no timeJun 08 07:27
ThistleWebyou still need anti-virus / anti-spyware etcJun 08 07:28
splosion$0 netbooks? http://adage.com/mediaworks/article?article_id=137088Jun 08 07:28
ThistleWebthey do at least give you a firewall, although how good it is I;m not sure. I suspect not very, since there are whole industries set up to sell you that stuffJun 08 07:28
mib_qj04joshe had an expired Norton crap, and her IE was broken by untold addons.Jun 08 07:28
ThistleWebuser eductaion has a lot to do with it tooJun 08 07:29
ThistleWebor lack ofJun 08 07:29
splosionThistleWeb: I tried to help a friend out with his firewall. The complete lack of anything resembling IPtables was disheartening. You don't get any control over your firewall with Windows. it's just "turn on/turn off". The details of what's actually *allowed* (like I don't know, incoming connections on port 999) are completely hiddenJun 08 07:30
mib_qj04jofor those people there is no OS debate, but if they had linux and it allowed them to get on the net and message, and was stable and malware free they would take it up.Jun 08 07:31
splosionwell that's just it. Windows is so ubiquitous because that's what people get when they buy a new computer. This is the only reason Microsoft even exists. Always wasJun 08 07:32
ThistleWebsplosion, yeah I guessed it'd be very basic, there's money in selling anything actually usefulJun 08 07:32
ThistleWebit does make you wonder why Windows power users defend Windows when they know you  have to disable or uninstall lots of stuff to keep it secureJun 08 07:33
ThistleWebwhy have functions you need to disable for security?Jun 08 07:33
ThistleWebhow many workplace PCs are locked down so you cant do anything with them?Jun 08 07:34
ThistleWebstuff is all disabled in case it gets infectedJun 08 07:34
mib_qj04joits not the power users that have trouble securing windws its really a trivial matter, its the average user that does not know about securityJun 08 07:34
ThistleWebdoes that not indicate to them that the OS they;re using is a piece of shit?Jun 08 07:34
ThistleWebmib_qj04jo, I know that, it's the power users who defend WindowsJun 08 07:35
splosionthere's a sort of logical brainfuck that goes on sometimes. "Linux is too hard! but if you really know what you're doing it's possible to secure Windows." As if a dimwit Joe Schmoe is going to know how to secure WindowsJun 08 07:35
ThistleWebthe only reasoning I can think of is that they earn their living by constantly fixing WindowsJun 08 07:35
ThistleWebthe more it fucks up, the more money they makeJun 08 07:36
mib_qj04joIt indicates that windows and linux both need to be used with security in mindJun 08 07:36
mib_qj04jomost windows users by far, dont know shit about securityJun 08 07:36
mib_qj04joso yes, people make their money off them.Jun 08 07:37
ThistleWebWindows is built to not bother the user with technical questions they dont understandJun 08 07:37
ThistleWebso it has stuff enabled by defaultJun 08 07:37
ThistleWebso it happens without the user being botheredJun 08 07:37
ThistleWebthis is a HUGE mistake which Microsoft have eventually realisedJun 08 07:37
EDavidBurgThistleWeb: did you make yourself a mibbit clone to talk to?Jun 08 07:38
splosionI've had to do the old "just reformat the thing" for Linux before. I accidentally chown'd the entire filesystem to the root user. I couldn't figure out how to undo the damage so I nuked the installation.Jun 08 07:38
ThistleWebbut as usual, their half arsed solution aint greatJun 08 07:38
ThistleWebEDavidBurg, lol nah it's a real personJun 08 07:38
ThistleWeband not meJun 08 07:38
EDavidBurgThistleWeb: trollJun 08 07:38
ThistleWebtyJun 08 07:38
EDavidBurg:DJun 08 07:38
ThistleWebleaving gaps in security is a great way to upsell on programs which supposedly fill those gapsJun 08 07:39
ThistleWebit's also a great way of getting repeat visits for repairsJun 08 07:39
ThistleWebwhich can be a great earnerJun 08 07:40
ThistleWebits also a great way of getting some users to just buy a new PC, with another Windows licenceJun 08 07:40
mib_qj04joIts not actually, because like fixing a car the normal user will ring you up and say "it's doing it again"Jun 08 07:40
mib_qj04joand expect you to fix itJun 08 07:40
ThistleWebrather than get their perfectly good PC fixedJun 08 07:40
splosionand notice how the media often forgets to mention that $huge_security_problem affects only Windows-usersJun 08 07:40
ThistleWebsplosion, of courseJun 08 07:41
ThistleWebmib_qj04jo, people have been trained that viruses can hit you at any time, so they assume it's a fresh infectionJun 08 07:41
ThistleWebwhich of course it likely isJun 08 07:41
ThistleWebgetting it cleaned wont fix the flaw, just clean the current woundJun 08 07:42
mib_qj04joits not how i run my business, and when i leave a customer he's/she's secureJun 08 07:42
ThistleWebit's all conditioningJun 08 07:42
ThistleWebMicrosoft have got people convinced that when it crashes it's THEIR fault, not MicrosoftsJun 08 07:42
splosionBing is the second-choice search engine in the US, apparently http://www.telecompaper.com/news/article.aspx?cid=675172Jun 08 07:43
ThistleWebthey ahve gotten people afraid of their PCsJun 08 07:43
ThistleWeb.aspx huh?Jun 08 07:43
ThistleWebhmmJun 08 07:43
ThistleWebcall me cynical if ya likeJun 08 07:43
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mib_qj04jomost people have little or no concept of what an operating system is, or who makes them or what they do.Jun 08 07:44
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ThistleWebI did an MCP several yrs back before I got into Linux, and was told to advise customers to defrag their HD, knowing it wouldnt affect the issue they were having but the logic was that it'd take about an hour to defrag and that tthe prob may fix itself by thenJun 08 07:45
ThistleWebor the age old "just reboot" and it magically fixes the problemJun 08 07:45
yuhongMy favorite news site right now is Ars Technica.Jun 08 07:46
ThistleWebthere is a joke about Windows engineers in a car crash, they just get out, close the door, open the door and drive offJun 08 07:46
mib_qj04jothey close the windows, and all get out of the car and get back in.Jun 08 07:48
splosion.aspx? Didn't see that. Do it rms stylz: wget http://www.telecompaper.com/news/article.aspx?cid=675172 -O lol.html; cat lol.html | sed -e 's#<[^>]*>##g'Jun 08 07:48
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splosionhrmm page no longer exists anywayJun 08 07:50
splosiony'know I might save that as an aliasJun 08 07:51
splosionfunction rms() { wget $1 -O $2; cat $2 | sed -e 's#<[^>]*>##g'; }Jun 08 07:52
splosionthe only way to browse the webJun 08 07:53
ThistleWeblolJun 08 07:54
ThistleWebI did read somewhere that IE 6 (I think) is changing peoples default browser to Bing without asking, so maybe it's rightJun 08 07:55
ThistleWeba Windows update, then trigger the countJun 08 07:55
ThistleWebthen release the PR hounds to report the good newsJun 08 07:55
schestowitzPerception Management at Microsoft, Using Web Agents < http://boycottnovell.com/2009/06/08/perception-management-web-agents/ >Jun 08 07:55
ThistleWebyeah it may well have been BNJun 08 07:56
schestowitzYeah, i guess.Jun 08 07:56
schestowitzThere's a lot of AstroTurfingJun 08 07:56
ThistleWebI refuse to accept that Bing has got 2nd place ahead of Yahoo in less than a weekJun 08 07:56
schestowitzI'll do some more expositions soon.Jun 08 07:56
ThistleWebeven Google couldn't do thatJun 08 07:56
schestowitzThistleWeb: that's FUDJun 08 07:56
schestowitzThey lied about Google tooJun 08 07:56
schestowitzBefore...Jun 08 07:56
schestowitzLive went downJun 08 07:56
ThistleWeband Microosft are AWFULL at web stuff as we knowJun 08 07:57
schestowitzBut they shilled (paid someone) to claim the oppositeJun 08 07:57
schestowitzBut many people didn't see MS paid for itJun 08 07:57
schestowitzIt's "The Slog"Jun 08 07:57
schestowitzLie, lie, lieJun 08 07:57
ThistleWebyepJun 08 07:57
schestowitzTry to make it a reality this wayJun 08 07:57
schestowitzSelf-fufilling prophecyJun 08 07:57
schestowitzSay "java is dead" until it's really deadJun 08 07:57
schestowitzBecause fo the slurJun 08 07:57
splosionRoy: typo here: "merely daring to comments."Jun 08 07:57
schestowitzThanksJun 08 07:58
ThistleWebI wonder about Chrome's early count too in market shareJun 08 07:58
ThistleWeba lot of peeps I know installed it to see what it's likeJun 08 07:59
ThistleWebbut wont use it yet until it has some Firefox-like ad and script blockingJun 08 07:59
ThistleWebit being Windows only at that point didn't helpJun 08 07:59
ThistleWebso there would be a surge of new testers who are curiousJun 08 08:00
schestowitzWhose count?Jun 08 08:00
schestowitzMicrosoft's?Jun 08 08:00
ThistleWebbut how many siwitched it as their main browser, I have my doubtsJun 08 08:00
schestowitzAKA Microsoft Hopkins?Jun 08 08:00
schestowitzNetAppsJun 08 08:00
schestowitzThey are in MS' pockets, y'know?Jun 08 08:00
ThistleWebI've seen a few counts putting Chrome at about 1%Jun 08 08:00
schestowitzAsk GoogleJun 08 08:01
schestowitzThey see # of downloadsJun 08 08:01
schestowitzAnd activationsJun 08 08:01
schestowitzAnd Chrome is pywareJun 08 08:01
schestowitzSo they know how many active installations there areJun 08 08:01
yuhongBTW, any positive reviews of 7 that aren't bribed.Jun 08 08:01
yuhongBTW, any positive reviews of 7 that aren't bribed?Jun 08 08:01
schestowitzI don't knowJun 08 08:02
ThistleWebI have it on my XP partition to play with it but yeah, the Google data mining thing would stop me from using Googles version as anything other than a curiousity to try for a little whileJun 08 08:02
schestowitzOnly fans try itJun 08 08:02
schestowitzSo it's biased by selectionJun 08 08:02
schestowitzThey also seed perceptionsJun 08 08:03
ThistleWebit's not bad for an early stage projectJun 08 08:03
schestowitzBy giving it only to hardcore MS fans whom they bribeJun 08 08:03
schestowitzprebeta that isJun 08 08:03
DaemonFCLame 3.99 shows exactly why it's important to keep source CDs/filesJun 08 08:03
DaemonFCfixes a lot of encoder bugs, spits out better filesJun 08 08:03
splosionIt won't change the fact that people will get 7 when they buy a new PC. Who actually buys operating systems? *Who*?Jun 08 08:03
ThistleWebit's not bad for an early stage project <<is for chrome btw, since the subject shifted while I was typingJun 08 08:04
DaemonFCI have actually bought Linux box sets beforeJun 08 08:04
DaemonFCback like 10 years agoJun 08 08:04
DaemonFCwhen I was stuck on dial up :PJun 08 08:04
ThistleWebI will be looking out for Chromium when it gets to a stable stage in LinuxJun 08 08:04
yuhongI read slashdot knowing that there are MS astroturfers out there.Jun 08 08:05
EDavidBurgI tried Chrome. It was "meh". Felt incomplete.Jun 08 08:05
DaemonFC2.8 gigabytes is trivial now (Mandrake was a 4 CD set)Jun 08 08:05
DaemonFCbut that's over a weeks worth of downloadingJun 08 08:05
DaemonFCon dial upJun 08 08:05
ThistleWebEDavidBurg, it is light on features but it's still early in the project so it's kinda understandableJun 08 08:05
splosionyuhong: a great mstroll tactic is to say something like, "I'm gonna get killed for going against /. groupthink here, but..." It's like a clarion call for "mod me up I'm dissing linux!!!"Jun 08 08:06
yuhongOn the /. groupthink, do you really think it is just groupthink?Jun 08 08:07
splosionI have no idea. All I've noticed is that mentioning "groupthink" usually ensures you get modded up.Jun 08 08:08
ThistleWebI remember when I first looked at trying this Debian thing lots of peeps were raving about, and found it was like 26CDs WTF??? Some were 3, 4 or 5 but 26 is just taking the pissJun 08 08:08
ThistleWebit put me off for a while until I found that all I needed was the net install CDJun 08 08:09
splosionThistleWeb: you can get 20gigabyte blu-ray images for Debian nowadays. :)Jun 08 08:09
DaemonFCyou only need the first CDJun 08 08:09
ThistleWebnow I've gotten used to single CD distrosJun 08 08:09
yuhongIt makes me think about whether there really is such a groupthink.Jun 08 08:09
DaemonFCit can download whatever it doesn't have in the installerJun 08 08:09
yuhongOr if it is just a myth.Jun 08 08:09
ThistleWebDaemonFC, yep, I never knew that to begin withJun 08 08:09
ThistleWebI assumed you needed all 26Jun 08 08:09
DaemonFCthat's why you should install popularity-contestJun 08 08:10
DaemonFCit can report to Debian what people use the mostJun 08 08:10
DaemonFCso they can prioritize what's on which CDJun 08 08:10
EDavidBurgGood nightJun 08 08:10
ThistleWebyeah, that 26 is the whole repo set too, with all the DE's etcJun 08 08:10
*EDavidBurg has quit ("leaving")Jun 08 08:10
ThistleWebyou could do the whole apt-on-cd thing tooJun 08 08:11
ThistleWebor set you own mirror upJun 08 08:11
ThistleWebI've never bothered with it personallyJun 08 08:11
DaemonFCor you could just use DVDsJun 08 08:11
yuhongAnd where the /. groupthink comes from.Jun 08 08:12
DaemonFCI think there's only 4 discs that wayJun 08 08:12
ThistleWebbut that relies on having a net connection when you need itJun 08 08:12
DaemonFCor you could use dual layer DVDJun 08 08:12
DaemonFCand Debian is now a 2 DVD setJun 08 08:12
DaemonFC:)Jun 08 08:12
ThistleWeblolJun 08 08:12
DaemonFCbeats 27 CDsJun 08 08:12
DaemonFC:PJun 08 08:12
ThistleWebit's still a hellava downloadJun 08 08:12
DaemonFCnot reallyJun 08 08:12
DaemonFCI could pull in all of Debian in about 6 hoursJun 08 08:13
ThistleWebnot everyone has a super fast dsl thoughJun 08 08:13
DaemonFCcableJun 08 08:13
DaemonFC:)Jun 08 08:13
splosionI'd quite like to try and install all 24,000 Debian packages sometime (minus all the conflicts). See what happensJun 08 08:13
yuhongWhat do you think about Ars Technica, BTW.Jun 08 08:13
yuhongI read it a lot.Jun 08 08:13
ThistleWebwhen you're looking around at different distros, and see plenty are single cds, Debian does look hugeJun 08 08:14
DaemonFCFedora live cds were a bit rough at firstJun 08 08:14
DaemonFCbut they've gotten much betterJun 08 08:14
DaemonFCI wouldn't recommend them on Fedora 8 or 9Jun 08 08:14
DaemonFCbut Fedora 10 Live CDs are pretty goodJun 08 08:14
ThistleWebthen again, I guess Debian is more aimed at the Linux power user who would likely use the net install CD and be fine with the text installerJun 08 08:15
yuhongOn /., I often try to get all of the comments by clicking the "Get More Comments" link.Jun 08 08:15
DaemonFChuge parts of the standard desktop were simply missing with the Fedora 8 or 9 Live CDsJun 08 08:15
DaemonFCit was unreasonableJun 08 08:15
splosionyuhong: I get randomlly get linked to Ars sometimes. don't go out of my way to read it, thoughJun 08 08:15
ThistleWebI think the last Fedora I tried was 7 liveJun 08 08:15
splosion-getJun 08 08:15
ThistleWebI wasn't impressedJun 08 08:15
ThistleWebI tend to pick my distros on which one defaults to the DE I prefer, since that's gonna be the one with higher priorites in getting fixed etcJun 08 08:16
ThistleWebUbuntu, Debian and Fedora are all Gnome distrosJun 08 08:17
ThistleWebso Gnome is going to be their strongest DEJun 08 08:17
splosionDebian's KDE was pretty well-done when I used itJun 08 08:17
DaemonFCLame 2.99 is not having a problem with my AC/DC tracks eitherJun 08 08:18
DaemonFCLame 3.98 gave bad resultsJun 08 08:18
DaemonFCerr 2.98 that isJun 08 08:18
DaemonFCerrrJun 08 08:18
ThistleWebDebian like to be quite vanilla, which is a selling pointJun 08 08:18
DaemonFCI am butterfingersJun 08 08:18
DaemonFC3.99 is MUCH better than 3.98Jun 08 08:18
DaemonFCthereJun 08 08:18
DaemonFC:PJun 08 08:18
splosionI tried running Debian KDE after a few week s with Kubuntu. It was like, "Holy shit KDE has MORE customization options!?"Jun 08 08:19
ThistleWebyeah, Ubuntu is great for Gnome people, but Kubuntu and Xubuntu are iffyJun 08 08:19
yuhongI found this on the slashdot groupthink.Jun 08 08:20
yuhonghttp://meta.slashdot.org/comments.pl?sid=345907&cid=21186633Jun 08 08:20
DaemonFCseems to allocate bits betterJun 08 08:20
DaemonFCI see what it's doing looking as a spectrum analyzerJun 08 08:21
DaemonFC*atJun 08 08:22
DaemonFCseems odd that Lame is still improving MP3 ten years laterJun 08 08:22
DaemonFC10 years ago people were saying MP3 was a fad that was going to die out soonJun 08 08:23
DaemonFCnow it's everywhere you lookJun 08 08:23
DaemonFCbig companies tend to not see the forest for all the trees :)Jun 08 08:23
splosionyuhong: I stay out of meta-discussions on /.Jun 08 08:25
DaemonFCfrom the technology of 1998/1999, flash memory was expensive, and hard drives could not really be miniaturized, players with 128 megs of storage sold for upwards of $150 and were state of the art, you might have gotten 4-5 CDs on one if you took the bitrate down to 64kJun 08 08:25
DaemonFCnow I'm looking at storing about 325 CDs on a portable at many times that qualityJun 08 08:25
splosionDaemonFC: and by 2015, 1TB of storage will cost you little more than a few dollarsJun 08 08:26
DaemonFCand we'll still be putting MP3s on themJun 08 08:26
DaemonFC:)Jun 08 08:26
DaemonFCI'd say MP3 easily has more than another 10 years in itJun 08 08:27
splosionYup. I saw this piece by crosbie fitch http://www.digitalproductions.co.uk/index.php?id=190 by 2015, it'll be possible to fit every single recorded song in human history on to a $100 hard drive (provided you encode them as mp3s)Jun 08 08:27
DaemonFCpeople will need lossy compression til the storage outgrows itJun 08 08:28
DaemonFCthen FLAC will do nicelyJun 08 08:28
DaemonFCI'm sure by 2020 when we all have portable media players with terabytes of storage, MP3 will ceaseto become practicalJun 08 08:28
DaemonFCand storing FLAC on them will suddenly make senseJun 08 08:28
splosionYeah. By 2020 I think most people will have devices that already come pre-loaded with everythingJun 08 08:29
DaemonFCWhy do you think Apple sold 128k bitrate files til last year?Jun 08 08:29
DaemonFCthey know that they could get people to pay another 79 cents a file to upgrade to 256kJun 08 08:29
DaemonFCbecause people are stupidJun 08 08:29
DaemonFCand lots of them didJun 08 08:29
splosionhahJun 08 08:29
DaemonFCand in about 3 more years, they'll sell you the upgrade to 512k AACJun 08 08:30
DaemonFCbut each time they'll tell you it's CD qualityJun 08 08:30
DaemonFC:)Jun 08 08:30
ThistleWebApple are very skilled in the act of the upsellJun 08 08:30
DaemonFCyou need to upgrade your CD quality files to the new "CD Quality"Jun 08 08:30
DaemonFCWhat? Did CD quality change?Jun 08 08:30
DaemonFCno, but definitions doJun 08 08:31
DaemonFC:)Jun 08 08:31
DaemonFCApple just keeps rewriting the definition of quality now don't they?Jun 08 08:31
DaemonFC:PJun 08 08:31
splosionit's like how Microsoft admitted that there is no practical difference between their windows 7 ranges. Just a few booleans in the code somewhere that decide whethere or not $functionality_x is enabled. Complete fabrication of scarcity. people will be paying money for "bool aero == TRUE;"Jun 08 08:32
DaemonFCanother reason they switched to double the bitrate is because it effectively halves the storage space on their flash devicesJun 08 08:32
DaemonFCso suddenly your 8 gig iPod is only good for half the filesJun 08 08:32
DaemonFCand you'll need to buy a new one soonerJun 08 08:32
DaemonFCsince it has no expansion portsJun 08 08:32
DaemonFClike better player brands doJun 08 08:32
splosion-=Jun 08 08:33
ThistleWebone Apple thing that (for me) is totally unacceptable is the non-user replacable battryJun 08 08:33
DaemonFCso either way you cut it, Apple wins, and you get fucked in the ass without lubeJun 08 08:33
splosionyupJun 08 08:33
ThistleWebsoemthing even non-geeks should spot as wrongJun 08 08:33
yuhongWould be interesting to compare with this:Jun 08 08:33
yuhonghttp://boycottnovell.com/2008/03/10/slashdot-tagging-tweak/Jun 08 08:33
ThistleWebthe fact that you have to effectivly get it serviced to replace the batteryJun 08 08:33
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DaemonFCIf Apple sold variable bitrate at q 0.60 (averages around 225k), then they'd give you about 30% more space on your ipod at almost no cost in quality of the fileJun 08 08:34
ThistleWebeven a propreitary battery should be able to be bought by the user and easily replacedJun 08 08:34
DaemonFCthe reason they don't is cause they want to sell you a new ipodJun 08 08:34
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yuhongI know.Jun 08 08:35
DaemonFCyou have to pay Apple to replace the batteryJun 08 08:35
splosionthat's just the nature of capitalism, though. All consumer electronic goods are built to breakJun 08 08:35
DaemonFCyou can buy knock offs and replace them yourself, but you are likely to break the ipodJun 08 08:36
DaemonFCand will void the warrentyJun 08 08:36
splosionotherwise I'd still be using the televsion I had twenty years agoJun 08 08:36
ThistleWebthat alone would turn me off Apple, even if they didn't install their digital straitjacket on what you can and cant doJun 08 08:36
DaemonFCjust like upgrading a Mac Mini's RAMJun 08 08:36
schestowitzWhat Microsoft Did to MKV, US Policy < http://boycottnovell.com/2009/06/08/mkv-us-policy-harmed-by-ms/>Jun 08 08:36
DaemonFCa battery on a flash device should last you a few yearsJun 08 08:36
DaemonFCeven under very heavy useJun 08 08:36
yuhongschestowitz: read my comments on /. here.Jun 08 08:37
DaemonFCthey figure by that time, it's "obsolete" and they can use the $50 battery replacement to make you want a new playerJun 08 08:37
yuhonghttp://boycottnovell.com/2009/05/29/sourceforge-adds-ex-softies/comment-page-1/#comment-65447Jun 08 08:37
yuhongDaemonFC: I know.Jun 08 08:37
DaemonFCthe iPod was designed to make you fork over the maximum possible amount of money to AppleJun 08 08:38
ThistleWebin Apple's case, a lot is down to the latest fashion accesory, if it's not this years iPod you're not trendyJun 08 08:38
DaemonFCnot to be a technological achievementJun 08 08:38
yuhongI know!Jun 08 08:38
DaemonFCI had a couple iPodsJun 08 08:38
DaemonFCbroke the first oneJun 08 08:38
DaemonFCbought another one, hated the firmware, installed RockBoxJun 08 08:39
splosionthe need to be trendy has infected pretty much everything. Remember when all PCs were beige?Jun 08 08:39
DaemonFChad it for a while and got tired of itJun 08 08:39
yuhongBTW, I was wondering about the gravatar picture.Jun 08 08:39
DaemonFCsold it on ebay and got more than I bought it for newJun 08 08:39
yuhongAnyone know what it is for or why it is there?Jun 08 08:39
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ThistleWebI kinda see iPod users more as trend followers, where they buy it because everyone else does, and feel like they've bought a ticket into a cliche with their white earbudsJun 08 08:39
DaemonFCgeneric beige boxes that all ran generic beige Windows 98Jun 08 08:40
DaemonFC:)Jun 08 08:40
DaemonFCnow they have to be coolJun 08 08:40
yuhongI know, Steve Jobs' marketing talents are well known.Jun 08 08:40
DaemonFCenter Vista and new case designsJun 08 08:40
DaemonFC:PJun 08 08:40
ThistleWebsplosion, Ubuntu are heading back to those routes then with the brown theme to match the beige boxesJun 08 08:40
DaemonFCI hate Ubuntu's default themeJun 08 08:41
DaemonFCit's so gross and datedJun 08 08:41
DaemonFCit's like welcome to Windows 95Jun 08 08:41
ThistleWebI'm not keen on the brown eitherJun 08 08:41
ThistleWebalthough I've grown rather used to Dusk, which is kinda beige / off-whiteJun 08 08:41
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DaemonFCI call it "Shit Brown"Jun 08 08:41
DaemonFCthat's meJun 08 08:41
ThistleWebwhich surprised me quiet a lotJun 08 08:42
DaemonFCinstall the Ubuntu Studio themeJun 08 08:42
DaemonFCthat's attractiveJun 08 08:42
DaemonFCthey should dump the shit brownJun 08 08:42
DaemonFCand use thatJun 08 08:42
ThistleWebdark themes can be cool if theyre done rightJun 08 08:42
DaemonFCUbuntu Studio should be the default themeJun 08 08:43
ThistleWebnothing wrong with brown in itself but Ubuntu's brown is nastyJun 08 08:43
DaemonFCwow new usersJun 08 08:43
DaemonFClots of eye candy at no performance costJun 08 08:43
splosionThere's nothing worse than a badly-done dark theme. Especially when they deem to have black text input boxes with black text. What the shitJun 08 08:43
DaemonFCthey're squandering a first impression opportunityJun 08 08:43
DaemonFCinstead of seeing a sleek modern OS, users will get "Welcome to Windows 95"Jun 08 08:43
ThistleWebsplosion, yeah some stuff is hard coded to be black text regardless of backgroundJun 08 08:43
DaemonFCpeople that make software that does that should be shotJun 08 08:44
DaemonFCthey really shouldJun 08 08:44
DaemonFCthat's a gross usability violationJun 08 08:44
DaemonFCand even manages to fuck over the accessability themesJun 08 08:44
splosionIt's been the only thing stopping me from going all-out dark theme, really. I've got a weird hybrid or light and dark nowJun 08 08:44
DaemonFC*accessibilityJun 08 08:44
ThistleWebI really like Aurora Midnight, but a few apps have real hard to read partsJun 08 08:45
splosions/or/ofJun 08 08:45
DaemonFCsome people are visually impared and need the dark contrasting themeJun 08 08:45
DaemonFChave they ever considered that?Jun 08 08:45
ThistleWebwhere you have to highlight stuff just to read themJun 08 08:45
ThistleWebafter a while I give up and look for a more usable themeJun 08 08:45
ThistleWebsplosion, have you tried Dusk?Jun 08 08:46
splosionYeah. I'm using the Dust them at the moJun 08 08:46
ThistleWebkJun 08 08:46
ThistleWebme tooJun 08 08:46
ThistleWeblolJun 08 08:46
ThistleWebit's a nice blendJun 08 08:47
ThistleWebsounds like a coffeeJun 08 08:47
splosionHahaJun 08 08:47
splosionDarklooks is a good theme, tooJun 08 08:47
splosionhttp://farm3.static.flickr.com/2166/2072670984_a64bddfcde.jpgJun 08 08:49
ThistleWebI do quite like Clearlooks, it's very KDE-likeJun 08 08:51
ThistleWebbut with GTK iconsJun 08 08:51
ThistleWeband very lightJun 08 08:51
ThistleWebnot badJun 08 08:52
ThistleWeboxygen icons?Jun 08 08:52
ThistleWeboxygen refit 2 are beautiful iconsJun 08 08:53
ThistleWebvery polishedJun 08 08:53
splosionthere are some good icons in the gnome-colors package. My girlfriend uses the purple ones. Also changes the Ubuntu logo in the panel to something prettierJun 08 08:53
ThistleWebhttp://www.unixporn.com/screenshots/index.php?cat=10044Jun 08 08:56
ThistleWebthey're older picsJun 08 08:57
splosionI rarely find myself rummaging around in file managers anyhowJun 08 08:58
DaemonFCAC/DC's Black Ice album is pretty goodJun 08 08:59
DaemonFCstill got it after over 30 yearsJun 08 08:59
DaemonFCthat's impressiveJun 08 08:59
splosionthat isJun 08 09:00
DaemonFCI have over 500 CDsJun 08 09:00
DaemonFCI mean actual CDsJun 08 09:00
splosionI had about 300 till about  a couple of years ago. Ripped them all. The CDs themselves slowly started to disappear after that. Gave them to friends, lost them etcJun 08 09:01
DaemonFCApple's not going to be selling me on anythingJun 08 09:02
DaemonFCmuch less Microsoft's counterfeit iTunes knock-offJun 08 09:02
splosionactualllly, come to think of it, I actually ripped very few of them. Entire-discography torrents were all the rage back then. I downloaded a lot of stuff I didn't really need toJun 08 09:03
ThistleWebentire discography torrents are great for finding aldums you never heard ofJun 08 09:03
splosiondefinitelyJun 08 09:04
ThistleWebor rare EPs etcJun 08 09:04
ThistleWebor US versions of stuff you have with different bonux tracks etcJun 08 09:04
DaemonFCthe latest alpha release of Lame is really outstandingJun 08 09:04
DaemonFCI'm ripping a lot of stuff to it alreadyJun 08 09:04
ThistleWebDaemonFC, we get it, you have a LAME fetishJun 08 09:04
DaemonFCyesJun 08 09:05
DaemonFC:)Jun 08 09:05
DaemonFCit and Nero's AAC were neck and neck depending on what you wanted to encodeJun 08 09:05
DaemonFCbut now the ball is in the LAME MP3 court againJun 08 09:05
DaemonFCI dunno, back and forth :PJun 08 09:05
DaemonFCthat and for some reason the Windows build of Easytag don't support MP4Jun 08 09:07
DaemonFCbut work with MP3Jun 08 09:07
DaemonFCfor some reason they gave the Mac and Linux versions MP4 support but not WindowsJun 08 09:08
splosionever considered running a media server? set up a simple linux distro with an mpd server and have all the other computers in your house connect to it to play music. No need to worry about codecs and such regardless of which OS you're connecting fromJun 08 09:09
ThistleWebsamba time for a mixed environmentJun 08 09:10
splosionsaves you HD space on your other devices, tooJun 08 09:10
ThistleWebwell you can stream with VLC I thinkJun 08 09:10
amarsh04for all its problems, I'm still running xmms 1.2 - it has plugins for all formats that I've encountered, including supporting the wavetable in the SB Live!5.1 card for hardware MIDI playbackJun 08 09:11
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MinceRgeekingsJun 08 09:11
ThistleWebhey MinceRJun 08 09:11
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splosionamarsh04: amarok 2.0 disappointed me so much I went and used mpd instead. Much happier nowJun 08 09:12
splosionstill use amarok 1.4 to organise and tag stuff, thoughJun 08 09:13
ThistleWebtheres music players and music playlist managers, depends on what you want, I love Audacious for s simple playerJun 08 09:13
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amarsh04yes, I must try mpd sometime splosionJun 08 09:14
splosionyeah. I use Quod Libet when I don't need a music library managerJun 08 09:15
splosionamarsh04: it's great if you have an enormous music collection that's properly tagged!Jun 08 09:15
splosionand you get your pick of front-ends tooJun 08 09:16
splosionthe best thing about it I guess is the RAM usage. It only uses a couple of megs when you don't have a front-end open. If you use a lightweight front-end like ncmpc, the whole thing will take up less than 5 megsJun 08 09:17
ThistleWeblightweight apps are goodJun 08 09:18
splosionjust checked. mpd = 3.0mb. Ario = 2.5 mb. Ario is a fully-featured GUI front-end, too. Not bad at all.Jun 08 09:19
ThistleWebthats not too bad at allJun 08 09:20
splosionI'll open songbird and compareJun 08 09:20
ThistleWebsongbird is quite heavyJun 08 09:20
*DaemonFC hates SongbirdJun 08 09:21
splosion57.5mb at idle. NiceJun 08 09:21
DaemonFCcongratulationsJun 08 09:21
DaemonFCyou figured it outJun 08 09:21
DaemonFC:)Jun 08 09:21
splosionnow for amarok 1.4...Jun 08 09:21
ThistleWebaudacious runs at around 13mbJun 08 09:22
DaemonFCI'm basically using Foobar 2000 to encode because I can have it act as a front end to any CLI encoder I chooseJun 08 09:22
DaemonFCand I use Winamp for everything elseJun 08 09:22
ThistleWebbut then, it's a winamp like player, mot a full media managerJun 08 09:22
splosion33.3mb.Jun 08 09:22
ThistleWebI use winamp when I'm forced to use my XP partitionJun 08 09:23
ThistleWebI'll be trying this ario and mpd combo though, it seems that it will fit the bill nicelyJun 08 09:24
splosionmeanwhile swiftfox is leaking, it seems. 600mb. Sheesh. that's a jokeJun 08 09:24
splosionI don't know how well the mpd front-ends on windows fare. Probably about the sameJun 08 09:25
splosionbrb rebooting swiftfoxJun 08 09:26
DaemonFCtried IceWeasel?Jun 08 09:26
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splosion2I agree with everything splosion saysJun 08 09:27
splosion2heh. sockpuppets are awesomeJun 08 09:28
ThistleWeblolJun 08 09:28
MinceR:DJun 08 09:28
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DaemonFCyikesJun 08 09:33
DaemonFCI just opened Windows Media Player, and it's catching up with about 50 CDs I rippedJun 08 09:33
splosiondon't worry it's just making sure the RIAA is being notified of your activities. chill, dudeJun 08 09:34
ThistleWebsplosion, lolJun 08 09:34
DaemonFCThat I bought CDs I legally ripped for personal useJun 08 09:35
DaemonFCfuck themJun 08 09:35
ThistleWebmethinks they use a different dictionary to define "personal use"Jun 08 09:35
splosioncan I get a whoosh!Jun 08 09:35
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ThistleWebone where "fair use" is missingJun 08 09:35
splosionwell yeah. If the RIAA had their way, you'd pay every time you listened to somethingJun 08 09:35
schestowitzDoes Microsoft Break the Law in Search of a Future? < http://boycottnovell.com/2009/06/08/bing-breaks-competition-law/ >Jun 08 09:36
DaemonFCsweet Jesus this import is taking foreverJun 08 09:38
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DaemonFCand it freezesJun 08 09:38
TheRIAAgive us all of your moneyJun 08 09:38
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mib_qj04joan investment bank tried to be MS to buy Yahoo, who's going to listen to an investment bank these days !!Jun 08 09:38
DaemonFCI don't know, I hear Lehman Brothers is the place to go for the best 401(k) planningJun 08 09:39
DaemonFC:)Jun 08 09:39
MinceRwarhammer 401k?Jun 08 09:39
splosionpretty shifty stuff microsoft acknowledging it as "bug", knowing full well most people won't bother changing their homepage anywayJun 08 09:40
mib_qj04jocertainly not sterns, or fanny/freddyJun 08 09:40
mib_qj04joMS ships with MS.com homepage, last i checked FF goes to its own site as the default.Jun 08 09:41
splosionhttp://www.eweekeurope.co.uk/news/ibm-goes-legal-over-microsoft-s-websphere-claims-1076 hrmm? is this new?Jun 08 09:41
splosionhttp://www.microsoft.com/windowsserver/mainframe/whoknew/ hahahaJun 08 09:43
mib_qj04joIBM should just prove them wrong, and sue for false advertising.Jun 08 09:43
splosiondidn't even know of this new campaign. Looks just as awful as "Get the Facts"Jun 08 09:44
DaemonFCyeah, but IE 8 tries to hijack your Firefox homepageJun 08 09:44
DaemonFCwhen it is installedJun 08 09:44
DaemonFCso does Windows Live MessengerJun 08 09:44
DaemonFChmmm, I see how WMA VBR spits out smaller files than Lame VBRJun 08 09:45
DaemonFCthey set the minimum bitrate lower at every quality levelJun 08 09:46
DaemonFChehJun 08 09:46
splosionIf I had any say in the matter, those windows program installers would have a bit called "Installation nearly done. O btw do you want us to fuck with all your personal settings?" to which there are two options: "Yes, because I am an idiot." and "no, fuck off"Jun 08 09:47
DaemonFCif you don't listen closely, you won't notice that the files are lower quality because the segments that get the minimum bitrate are less complex anywayJun 08 09:48
DaemonFCwhich lets them say same quality with less file sizeJun 08 09:48
ThistleWebsplosion, they do, they just preset it to the former and have it accidentally forget to show you the pageJun 08 09:48
DaemonFCbut you can override LAME and do the same thing for MP3 easilyJun 08 09:48
DaemonFCI've tried using WMA before, was never really impressed with the resulting file qualityJun 08 09:48
splosionThistleWeb: but they don't have that section exactly worded like that, do they? "do you want us to fuck with your personal settings?" This sentence is mandatory. godammitJun 08 09:49
DaemonFCWMA 7 and 8 had a horrible reverberating echoJun 08 09:49
DaemonFCat any bitrateJun 08 09:49
ThistleWeblolJun 08 09:49
DaemonFCand WMA 9 is better, but still not on par with Lame MP3Jun 08 09:49
schestowitzWhy Mono (and Moonlight) is Microsoft’s Embrace http://boycottnovell.com/2009/06/08/microsoft-mono-embrace-extend-extinguish/Jun 08 09:50
DaemonFCI'd rather use an MP2 encoder than WMAJun 08 09:50
DaemonFCyou'd still get better resultsJun 08 09:50
DaemonFCthe guy that started Lame went and backported gspycho and variable bitrate to MP2Jun 08 09:52
DaemonFCand called that TooLameJun 08 09:52
splosionfrom a pdf at microsoft's "who knew?": For standard enterprise computing, Windows Server 2008 and the Intel Xeon processor 5500 series deliver power on demand and conserve power overall through judicious use of support Group Policy, which allows administrators to define the available resources. Windows Server 2008 takes advantage of Intel® Intelligent Power!"Jun 08 09:52
DaemonFChe was worried about Lame treading on MP3 patentsJun 08 09:52
ThistleWebDaemonFC, you should write a history of LAMEJun 08 09:52
DaemonFCI got my first taste of WMA back when someone sent me one in 1999Jun 08 09:53
ThistleWebnot hereJun 08 09:53
ThistleWebI meant in a book for those who careJun 08 09:53
DaemonFCthe horrible quality offended me such that I went and bought the CD and ripped the file to MP3Jun 08 09:53
DaemonFCand sent that to them in their emailJun 08 09:53
splosionI remember reading in a newspaper about how wmas were "smaller and higher quality than mp3s" around 1999/2000ish. Oh how gullible we were back thenJun 08 09:54
DaemonFCWMA is a sixth the quality if MP3 at only half the bitrateJun 08 09:55
DaemonFC;)Jun 08 09:55
MinceRor newspapers were bought by m$ just like they are nowJun 08 09:55
DaemonFCMicrosoft's listening sample is obviously rigged, the samples they chose have mostly nothing that is hard to compressJun 08 09:56
DaemonFCWhich is also why Xiph's Vorbis Dare to Compare is also bullshitJun 08 09:57
DaemonFCthey used the same files Microsoft did to try and respondJun 08 09:58
DaemonFCVorbis has not trouble with them because no lossy codec doesJun 08 09:58
DaemonFCthat was why they made WMA look better than it isJun 08 09:58
DaemonFC*noJun 08 09:58
DaemonFCVorbis really isn't all that impressive either thoughJun 08 09:59
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DaemonFCthey could implement most of its shortcomings in encoder upgrades though without breaking decoding compatibilityJun 08 10:00
DaemonFCso there's some chance of improvementJun 08 10:00
splosionre: the pro-mono stuff on UF. I've seen more than a couple of anti-BN threads there as wellJun 08 10:12
ThistleWebthe BN title is very inflamitoryJun 08 10:14
ThistleWebit sorta sets the stall out before you start reading anythingJun 08 10:14
splosionto a certain extent, it was inevitable. Like I was saying earlier, anyone who is outspoken about their opinions and beliefs is likely to get hated on. Roy, PJ, Ken Starks. doesn't matter who they are or what they say, the fact that they're outspoken about it causes people to get in a huffJun 08 10:16
mib_qj04joits not exactly what you would call unbiased :)Jun 08 10:18
splosionyeah, but who wants to read that :PJun 08 10:19
ThistleWebsomething with a strong name is easier to dismiss as a loonieJun 08 10:19
ThistleWebgotta say though BN could easily have been a FUD site with that title but it's notJun 08 10:20
splosionI think FUD is more insidious than thatJun 08 10:21
ThistleWebmake it sound moderate and genuineJun 08 10:21
mib_qj04joFUD is over rated, do you really think people live in fear about software ?Jun 08 10:22
splosionRoy's like, "I think people should Boycott Novell and here's why." I like that attitude. no beating about the bush. say what you feel. but whether or not anybody who comes to the site chooses to believe the same is up to them. the links are all there. people should make up their own mindsJun 08 10:23
splosionmib_qj04jo: well yeah, if you're an OEM wondering if you might get sued for installing Linux on your machinesJun 08 10:23
MinceRhttp://torrentfreak.com/pirate-bay-nemesis-has-name-changed-by-pranksters-090607/Jun 08 10:24
mib_qj04joName an OEM thats been sued ?Jun 08 10:24
splosionmib_qj04jo: you're missing the point. FUD is about the threat.  As the TomTom case proved, Microsoft's patents turn out to be pretty trivial. So long as they're submarine patents, though, they can be used as a detterrentJun 08 10:25
mib_qj04joIm not missing the point, what your saying its the FEAR of what they might do, so is that not spreading your own FUD?Jun 08 10:26
DaemonFChehJun 08 10:26
DaemonFCif Windows Media Player is playing a VBR MP3 of any bit rate range, it reports that it is 320k MP3Jun 08 10:27
splosiondohJun 08 10:27
DaemonFChttp://img23.imageshack.us/img23/5108/15148895.pngJun 08 10:30
DaemonFCit's a q2 Lame VBRJun 08 10:30
DaemonFCnowhere near 320kJun 08 10:31
splosionHah.Jun 08 10:31
DaemonFCq2 tries to stay around 160-256kJun 08 10:32
DaemonFCdepending on what's going on in the streamJun 08 10:32
DaemonFCbut gravitates towards the high 100's and low 200's mostlyJun 08 10:32
splosionI like watching the bit-rate indicators on media players. Some stuff you get off the intertubes have really bizarre bitrates. I once had an album that apparently was entirely encoded in the variable 191-195k range. Never went bigger or smaller. weird stuffJun 08 10:33
DaemonFCthe encoder can do that on Constant Bitrate filesJun 08 10:33
DaemonFCI know it sounds wierd, but it canJun 08 10:34
splosionhrmm, the more you knowJun 08 10:34
DaemonFCI would _never_ use CBRJun 08 10:34
DaemonFCit's a really awful idea to use CRBJun 08 10:34
DaemonFC*CBRJun 08 10:34
DaemonFCgiving the encoder the decision will usually result in better overall quality with smaller filesJun 08 10:35
DaemonFCtelling it to use 320k CBR will cause it to encode complete silence as 320kJun 08 10:35
DaemonFCso if you just simply MUST have a 320k MP3, which is overkill anyway in most applications for MP3Jun 08 10:36
DaemonFCyou should use VBR q0 insteadJun 08 10:36
DaemonFCit will let the encoder drop to 224 or 256 where it makes sense toJun 08 10:36
splosionhrrmm. Lemme find a song with silence in it and see what it drops toJun 08 10:36
DaemonFCyou'll shave about 10-15% of the file size with almost no penalty in qualityJun 08 10:36
splosion32kbps. smoothJun 08 10:37
DaemonFCyesJun 08 10:37
DaemonFCMP3 can't go lower than 32kJun 08 10:37
DaemonFCMP4 can go down to 8kJun 08 10:37
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DaemonFCobviously most people never really complain about that limitation cause at 32k, MP3 sounds like shitJun 08 10:38
DaemonFCbut it can shave a tiny bit off the file size in a VBR MP4 fileJun 08 10:38
DaemonFCMP4 can also go as high as 400kJun 08 10:39
DaemonFCMP3 stops at 320Jun 08 10:39
DaemonFCMP2 is 32-256Jun 08 10:39
zer0c00lhttp://lists.whatwg.org/htdig.cgi/whatwg-whatwg.org/2009-June/020225.htmlJun 08 10:39
DaemonFCreally MP3's resilience in face of better alternatives is what I call the "UNIX Effect"Jun 08 10:40
DaemonFCthings tend to evolve until they are "just" good enough to do the job, then nobody will ever ditch themJun 08 10:40
DaemonFClimitations become featuresJun 08 10:41
zer0c00li got it from slash dot http://tinyurl.com/oefr48Jun 08 10:41
DaemonFCbugs become enshrined in standardsJun 08 10:41
DaemonFCand anyone that criticizes it gets burned at the stakeJun 08 10:41
DaemonFC:)Jun 08 10:41
mib_qj04jothats why standards are dynamic and not static, they change over time.Jun 08 10:42
mib_qj04jolike softwareJun 08 10:42
DaemonFCreally UNIX isn't all that bad, and neither is MP3, but the point is that better ways of doing things never catch on because nobody wants to disturb what's worked "so well, all these years"Jun 08 10:42
DaemonFCwhich is partly why Ogg Vorbis really isn't catching on real fastJun 08 10:43
DaemonFCthe momentum is behind MP3Jun 08 10:43
DaemonFCMP3 is a household nameJun 08 10:43
MinceRso what's that mythical better-than-unix way of doing things that never caught on?Jun 08 10:43
DaemonFCmy mom knows what an MP3 is, but not an Ogg VorbisJun 08 10:43
splosiondisruptive technologies have a way of changing things like that. How many supercomputers run UNIX these days?Jun 08 10:43
*MinceR bets DaemonFC will say "vista"Jun 08 10:43
DaemonFCMinceR: In some ways, in other ways not so muchJun 08 10:44
MinceRdid the kool-aid at least taste good?Jun 08 10:44
DaemonFCI'll say it again, a user should *never* need a compilerJun 08 10:44
DaemonFC_ever_Jun 08 10:44
DaemonFCfor anythingJun 08 10:44
DaemonFCto just make the system workJun 08 10:45
MinceRyes, programmers should write machine code with a hex editorJun 08 10:45
DaemonFCa normal person shouldn't even have to know what a compiler isJun 08 10:45
splosionDaemonFC: that wasn't exactly a very feasible option 30 years agoJun 08 10:45
MinceRyou can start making it, see you in over 9000 years with the demo kernel.Jun 08 10:45
mib_qj04johe did say user, not programmerJun 08 10:45
MinceRwell, how do users obtain machine code?Jun 08 10:45
MinceRfrom the machine code fairy?Jun 08 10:46
DaemonFCin a setup file or an RPM or somethingJun 08 10:46
MinceRor someone uses a compiler for them?Jun 08 10:46
mib_qj04jofrom the supplier of the softwareJun 08 10:46
DaemonFCnot as a "Figure it the fuck out" mystery tarballJun 08 10:46
DaemonFCin favorable circumstances anywayJun 08 10:46
MinceRif someone uses a compiler to create machine code for them, did they need the compiler after all?Jun 08 10:46
MinceRyes they did!Jun 08 10:46
splosionDaemonFC: if the guy who wrote the software doesn't bother to package it, sometimes users don't have a choice if they want to use that softwareJun 08 10:47
MinceRbblJun 08 10:47
DaemonFCif someone says "Here's a tarball with source code" that's jsut ridiculous and unreasonableJun 08 10:47
splosionMinceR: more importantly, who is going to compile the compiler?Jun 08 10:47
mib_qj04jono they dont have to go anywhere near a compiler, or have it on their computer,Jun 08 10:47
DaemonFCwhen Linux systems are supposed to be "easy to use" nowJun 08 10:47
MinceRwho watches the watchmen?Jun 08 10:47
MinceRDaemonFC: 1995 called, they want their news back.Jun 08 10:48
DaemonFCthe user shoud never have to have it say "Compiler errror number blah"Jun 08 10:48
DaemonFCand say "What the fuck does this mean?"Jun 08 10:48
MinceRDaemonFC: meanwhile, install ubuntu and count the number of times you had to use a compiler.Jun 08 10:48
MinceRand get a fucking clue already.Jun 08 10:48
*MinceR ->Jun 08 10:48
DaemonFCactually, I had to use a compilerJun 08 10:48
DaemonFCbecause their kernel is seriously fucked upJun 08 10:48
splosionsucks to be youJun 08 10:49
DaemonFCas in you go through the configuration and wonder what kind of crack these people are smokingJun 08 10:49
DaemonFCUbuntu is officially the new MicrosoftJun 08 10:50
DaemonFCflip it all on no matter what it does to wreck security or performanceJun 08 10:50
DaemonFCthat way nobody asks how to make it workJun 08 10:50
mib_qj04joUbuntu is an OS Microsoft is a software company !Jun 08 10:51
DaemonFCI would say that Ubuntu defies common sense with their security settingsJun 08 10:51
DaemonFCbut that would be kindJun 08 10:51
DaemonFCthey took a piss all over common senseJun 08 10:51
splosionhow so?Jun 08 10:52
DaemonFCit doesn't even have the minimal protections it ships with turned onJun 08 10:52
DaemonFCAppArmor/UFW (firewall setup tool)Jun 08 10:52
DaemonFCthe kernel doesn't have stack smashing protectionJun 08 10:52
splosionI thought Ubuntu blocked incoming connections on any port range by default?Jun 08 10:53
DaemonFCand they're worried about enabling the root accountJun 08 10:53
DaemonFCUbuntu is so bullshit it's beyond explainationJun 08 10:53
DaemonFCnopeJun 08 10:53
DaemonFCit reports Closed which is enough to tell a port scanner a computer is at that IP addressJun 08 10:54
DaemonFCeven Windows isn't that stupidJun 08 10:54
splosionis that so. bummer. well, not my firewall so I'm not too fussedJun 08 10:54
DaemonFCat least Fedora is reasonably well secured the first time you boot into itJun 08 10:54
splosionand if you want to do some serious root-ing from the terminal, try "sudo -i"Jun 08 10:54
DaemonFCwithout the user having to interfereJun 08 10:54
DaemonFCI just used sudo passwdJun 08 10:55
DaemonFCfuck those nazisJun 08 10:55
DaemonFC:PJun 08 10:55
DaemonFCtell me what I can do on my system......Jun 08 10:55
DaemonFCI think notJun 08 10:55
splosionsudo -i doesn't just elevate your user's priveleges, it starts a terminal session as the root user.Jun 08 10:56
DaemonFCgood for themJun 08 10:56
splosionthe point is, you can easily get to the root account without changing any settingsJun 08 10:57
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schestowitzI've just tried KDE4 on some computer. It's nice.Jun 08 10:57
DaemonFCwake me up when Ubuntu has "sudo unfuck the audio system and secure the system for me"Jun 08 10:58
splosionruns slow on my computer, roy :(Jun 08 10:58
DaemonFCI won't touch KDEJun 08 10:58
DaemonFCI've got LXDE on the laptopJun 08 10:58
splosionwhich distro?Jun 08 10:59
splosionslitaz runs like greased-lightning on my 800mhz ancient laptopJun 08 10:59
schestowitzsplosion: it was a strong PCJun 08 10:59
schestowitzGraphically it's impressiveJun 08 10:59
schestowitzI didn't drive it for longJun 08 10:59
schestowitzF10Jun 08 11:00
DaemonFCFedora/LXDEJun 08 11:00
DaemonFCruns wellJun 08 11:00
DaemonFChttp://lxde.org/image/tid/1Jun 08 11:00
splosioni loved that video a couple of months back where they showed a bunch of people in the street a laptop running KDE4 and told them it was the new Windows. "Very impressive!" was the general consensusJun 08 11:00
DaemonFCit's obvious that LXDE is modeled after Windows XPJun 08 11:01
splosionbut from what I've seen of win7, it looks very KDE-ish indeedJun 08 11:01
DaemonFCyeah, but it does a few neat things KDE doesn'tJun 08 11:02
DaemonFCI'm sure they'll end up in KDE thoughJun 08 11:02
DaemonFC;)Jun 08 11:02
DaemonFCthe superbar isn't a bad ideaJun 08 11:03
ThistleWebI quite liked lxde last time I tried itJun 08 11:04
ThistleWebslitaz does seem very light and very fast, it kinda makes you wonder where they hide stuff to get that performanceJun 08 11:05
splosionThistleWeb: wifi drivers for a start. took me ages to figure out how to get my wifi to work in slitazJun 08 11:06
ThistleWebsplosion, I've only tried in live cd mode but I am tempted to put slitaz on a USBJun 08 11:07
ThistleWebI was very impressed with the live cdJun 08 11:07
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splosionthat's a good ideaJun 08 11:07
ThistleWebwolvix is nice and light tooJun 08 11:09
DaemonFChttp://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eNL6DyH_IfAJun 08 11:09
schestowitzDaemonFC: you tool!Jun 08 11:10
schestowitzhttp://boycottnovell.com/2009/06/08/microsoft-mono-embrace-extend-extinguish/#comment-65485Jun 08 11:10
schestowitzYour FUD is harming usJun 08 11:10
DaemonFCI would have blown them out of the water if they got that close to my shipJun 08 11:10
schestowitzBanshee does not requite winformJun 08 11:11
schestowitz*ReJun 08 11:11
DaemonFCit brought it in when I installed itJun 08 11:11
trmancohttp://www.campaignmonitor.com/stats/email-clients/Jun 08 11:14
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ushimitsudokiThunderbird doesn't even rank?Jun 08 11:16
ushimitsudokioh i see it on the tableJun 08 11:17
ushimitsudokidamn seems lowJun 08 11:17
ushimitsudoki:(Jun 08 11:17
amarsh04one friend of mine asked me what newsgroup reader I used and I replied Thunderbird... he'd been using emacsJun 08 11:18
ushimitsudokiheh. i tried to use emacs - i really did. never could click with itJun 08 11:18
trmancoit's the same thing as net applications' dataJun 08 11:18
DaemonFChttp://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/UltraEditJun 08 11:18
DaemonFC:)Jun 08 11:19
ThistleWebushimitsudoki, look at the fine print at the bottomJun 08 11:19
trmancoI bet all there so called "costumers" are all using WindowsJun 08 11:19
trmancoGNUsJun 08 11:19
trmancomehJun 08 11:19
ThistleWebThe email client a person is using can only be detected if images are displayed. This can give an inflated weighting to email clients that display images by default, such as Outlook 2000 and the iPhone.Jun 08 11:19
trmancoto big of a learning curve for meJun 08 11:19
ushimitsudokiThistleWeb: ah - that makes a difference - I don't display HTML email. I wonder how much of an effect that is across the boardJun 08 11:19
ThistleWebit may be that many Thunderbird users are in plain text mode and it cant detect itJun 08 11:19
DaemonFCUltraEdit is far better than EmacsJun 08 11:20
ThistleWebI use plain text modeJun 08 11:20
ThistleWebonly switch to plain html if I need it, on an individual basisJun 08 11:20
trmancoThistleWeb, wow, now I know I should always read a page until there is nothing else to readJun 08 11:20
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ThistleWebhaving said that, many TB users will leave the defaults, which is full htmlJun 08 11:20
trmancoyep, plain text, switch to html when needed here tooJun 08 11:20
DaemonFCThey're porting it to LinuxJun 08 11:20
DaemonFCthey have some screenshots upJun 08 11:21
ThistleWebso it should rankJun 08 11:21
DaemonFChttp://www.ultraedit.com/products/uex.htmlJun 08 11:21
ThistleWebjust maybe not as high as it's real figures by that disclaimerJun 08 11:21
DaemonFCthe Windows version runs perfectly in Wine thoughJun 08 11:21
ThistleWebI dont think TB is as popular as FF is to IEJun 08 11:21
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DaemonFCI mainly use it as a hex editor, but it can do a lot more than thatJun 08 11:21
ThistleWebI reckon a lot of Firefox users aint heard of TBJun 08 11:21
ushimitsudokiThistleWeb: I think you are right - Thunderbird development is a lot slower and not as much PR behind it - maybe they will step it up a bit for v3?Jun 08 11:22
ThistleWebit is still on 2.x so yeah, hopefullyJun 08 11:22
DaemonFCIt has Syntax highlighting for most programming languages, which is one of my favorite featured in GNOME's GeditJun 08 11:22
ThistleWebtheres little media behind email client wars, where there is with browser warsJun 08 11:23
ThistleWeband Firefox snapping up IE share by the dayJun 08 11:23
DaemonFCthat way you know if you forget to close a tag or end a comment or something sillyJun 08 11:23
DaemonFCMicrosoft has hinted that IE 9 is coming alongJun 08 11:23
DaemonFCso expect that probably next year at some pointJun 08 11:23
ThistleWebFF 4 is also coming alongJun 08 11:24
ThistleWebnot for a whileJun 08 11:24
ThistleWebbut it's comingJun 08 11:24
MinceRreJun 08 11:24
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ThistleWebI'm betting FF 5 will also be coming alongJun 08 11:24
ThistleWebeventuallyJun 08 11:24
MinceR120446 < DaemonFC> Ubuntu is officially the new MicrosoftJun 08 11:24
MinceRthat's great, it means you love ubuntuJun 08 11:24
DaemonFCFirefox is why Internet Explorer has improvedJun 08 11:24
MinceRDaemonFC: as for the disabled root account, you're still full of shit. get a clue.Jun 08 11:25
DaemonFCnoJun 08 11:25
DaemonFCthey are full of shitJun 08 11:25
DaemonFCthere's no reason to disable itJun 08 11:25
DaemonFCespecially when most users choose passwords that any dictionary attack will breakJun 08 11:26
DaemonFCmuch less brute forceJun 08 11:26
MinceRthere's no reason to enable it eitherJun 08 11:26
ThistleWebany surveying thing like this also relies on who install their monitoring software I thinkJun 08 11:26
MinceRthere's no point in keeping around a password for an account no human admin will log in asJun 08 11:26
MinceRunless you advocate sharing passwordsJun 08 11:27
ThistleWebit's like how they work out veiwing figures, a small set of users volunteer to have boxes monitor what TV channels they watch and when. Then the numbers are extrapolated up to match the total TV owning population numbersJun 08 11:27
ThistleWebif by some coicindence the only people watching a show are those with boxes, it appears VERY popular, when it's a few 1,000 at bestJun 08 11:28
ThistleWebunless I'm just too tired to understand this campaignmonitor siteJun 08 11:29
mib_qj04josimple math will show that if you have a large enough sampling you will be more and more accurate results.  for nealson boxes or anythingJun 08 11:29
ThistleWebgenerally it is more accurate the larger the sample numbersJun 08 11:31
ThistleWebcampaign monitor is also an .aspx siteJun 08 11:32
schestowitzbblJun 08 11:36
DaemonFCand VLC seems to think a VBR MP3 is 128k in the file informationJun 08 11:37
DaemonFCWindows Media Player thinks they're all 320kJun 08 11:37
DaemonFCthe truth must be somewhere in betweenJun 08 11:37
DaemonFC:)Jun 08 11:37
ThistleWebI'm gone for a whileJun 08 11:38
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trmancowho is Rick on COLA?Jun 08 11:44
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trmancoLOOL -> http://izanbardprince.wordpress.com/2009/06/06/introducing-bing-search/Jun 08 12:21
DaemonFC"This war has to finish before something new blossoms. There's no draft — that's why none of the kids give a shit. They'd rather watch videos on YouTube."Jun 08 12:21
DaemonFCamenJun 08 12:21
DaemonFChttp://www.rollingstone.com/news/story/17162460/billie_joe_armstrongJun 08 12:22
DaemonFCI actually wanted that bill to reinstate the draft to pass back in 2007Jun 08 12:23
DaemonFCthe younger people would have got to the polls and tossed the bastards out after thatJun 08 12:23
fewaBING Is Not GoogleJun 08 12:23
DaemonFCBing Is Not GoatseJun 08 12:25
DaemonFC:)Jun 08 12:25
mib_qj04joBing In Not GNUJun 08 12:26
DaemonFCBing Is Not GodzillaJun 08 12:27
mib_qj04joBallmer is not GatesJun 08 12:29
trmancoBUNG?Jun 08 12:29
fewatrmanco, thats a good blogJun 08 12:37
fewainterestingJun 08 12:37
DaemonFC85% of Mozilla's revenue depends on GoogleJun 08 12:39
DaemonFCthis has to worry them that Google has their own browser that outperforms FirefoxJun 08 12:39
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fewamozilla is still the better browsers, and does much more to promote privacy and control for the userJun 08 12:40
DaemonFCnot reallyJun 08 12:41
DaemonFCthey put in so much crap that phones home to GoogleJun 08 12:41
DaemonFCthat you are essentially using Google's browser either wayJun 08 12:41
fewait doesnt phone home, it only downloads a weekly set of hashes, and you the first thing i do is get rid of autosuggest and change to a non-mozilla version of google searchJun 08 12:42
DaemonFCChrome is still better in many waysJun 08 12:43
fewagoogle has very little control over cookies, for example you cant set it session only: the silver-bullet of blocking online trackingJun 08 12:43
DaemonFCI believe that if development continues at this rate, Chrome will eventually overtake FirefoxJun 08 12:43
fewaand google knows that, and therefore takes that option out of their browserJun 08 12:43
DaemonFCit'll take a few years thoughJun 08 12:43
DaemonFCenough time for Mozilla to maybe get their act togetherJun 08 12:43
DaemonFCcookies are unimportantJun 08 12:44
DaemonFCin fact with flash isntalled, cookies are really the least of your concernJun 08 12:44
DaemonFCmost places that want to track you do so with flash supercookiesJun 08 12:45
DaemonFCthey don't even bother with normal cookies anymoreJun 08 12:45
DaemonFCthere's software to control cookie behavior in every major browser, and Flash cookies give them more storage on your computerJun 08 12:46
splosionall the more reason to rms your browsing, DaemonFCJun 08 12:46
splosionor use noscriptJun 08 12:46
DaemonFCI just use a local proxy that filters out all the annoying crapJun 08 12:46
DaemonFCproblem solvedJun 08 12:46
DaemonFCno ads can load in any browser or any applicationJun 08 12:47
DaemonFCperiodJun 08 12:47
DaemonFCend of storyJun 08 12:47
splosiongood callJun 08 12:47
DaemonFCBFilter doesn't need blacklists or filter rulesJun 08 12:49
DaemonFCit jsut figures out what's an ad and what an annoying piece of crap that's up to no goodJun 08 12:49
DaemonFCdoes a fairly decent jobJun 08 12:49
splosionyou mean this? http://bfilter.sourceforge.net/ not heard of it before. I'll check it outJun 08 12:50
fewa DaemonFC mozilla has a LSO remover extentionJun 08 12:50
DaemonFCwith BFilter, even Internet Explorer becomes almost tolerableJun 08 12:50
fewaDaemonFC, but yes, there is a bug that says mozilla should scrub flash cookies on the same rulesJun 08 12:51
DaemonFCyes, but they won'tJun 08 12:51
DaemonFCbecause I suspect the types that do that crap pay them not toJun 08 12:51
DaemonFCjust like with Internet ExplorerJun 08 12:51
fewaDaemonFC, i still wont change my browser, because while mozilla defaults may not be perfect, add ons let me change mozilla to implament those aware defaults. chromium has no such abilityJun 08 12:53
splosionhrrm, going to need to compile ACE to get this thing up and runningJun 08 12:53
fewaand firefox 3.5 brings performace up considerablyJun 08 12:53
DaemonFCInternet Explorer's cookie controls are interestingJun 08 12:53
fewaDaemonFC, they are designed to be brokenJun 08 12:53
DaemonFCbecause the default is to accept them if they have a compact privacy policy that promises to not do bad thingsJun 08 12:54
DaemonFCbut there's nothing that says I can't put a compact privacy policy up that says thatJun 08 12:54
DaemonFCand immediately violate itJun 08 12:54
fewahttp://izanbardprince.wordpress.com/2009/05/21/why-inprivate-is-no-excuse-for-ies-indecent-behavior/Jun 08 12:54
DaemonFCcause it's not illegal or anything :)Jun 08 12:54
DaemonFCthere's no penalty for breaking my wordJun 08 12:54
DaemonFCthat would be meJun 08 12:55
fewaDaemonFC, windows like to make the world a world of lies, deciet, and broken promisesJun 08 12:55
DaemonFCI wrote that by the way, because I'm not exactly a huge fan of MSIEJun 08 12:55
fewawishing those with a  bad consciouses to do anything they pleaseJun 08 12:55
fewao thats your blog?Jun 08 12:56
DaemonFCyesJun 08 12:56
splosionChrist, the ACE source package is 160mb. what the hell does this thing do?Jun 08 12:58
fewathe real web browser benchmark is spidermonkeyJun 08 12:58
fewaits all ready world, useful things browsers doJun 08 12:58
trmancoschestowitz, got a surprise for youJun 08 12:58
DaemonFCfewa: http://izanbardprince.wordpress.com/2009/06/06/introducing-bing-search/Jun 08 12:59
fewawhoops, sunspiderJun 08 13:00
fewahttp://www2.webkit.org/perf/sunspider-0.9/sunspider.htmlJun 08 13:00
DaemonFC"You want useless trivia regarding Brangelina, porn, and sponsored links that lead to malicious software posing as Limewire"Jun 08 13:00
DaemonFC:PJun 08 13:00
fewaalso gromaeoJun 08 13:01
mib_qj04joyes plsJun 08 13:01
fewadromaeo, tests all the differnt javascript frameworks, etcJun 08 13:01
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fewahttp://dromaeo.com/Jun 08 13:01
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trmancoshameful censoring of mono opposition: https://lists.ubuntu.com/archives/ubuntu-devel-discuss/2009-June/008447.htmlJun 08 13:02
fewathe only one that tests the DOMJun 08 13:02
trmancosomeone stands up and then they try to shut him upJun 08 13:02
trmancoread the hole threadJun 08 13:02
mib_qj04joits like people getting shut down on hereJun 08 13:03
splosionDaemonFC: I don't have the patience to compile a 160mb framework to allow me to compile a local proxy thingamajig. I'll stick to noscript for now till Debian packages the damned thing for meJun 08 13:03
DaemonFClmaoJun 08 13:03
DaemonFCno Linux packages?Jun 08 13:03
mib_qj04jothey have computers for the these days :) !!!Jun 08 13:03
DaemonFCI was using MoBlock for a while on Linux because it filters out anything you want at the TCP/IP stackJun 08 13:04
DaemonFCgood for blocking out anti-p2p parasitesJun 08 13:04
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trmancohttps://bugs.edge.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/mono/+bug/383182Jun 08 13:04
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DaemonFCI used to use the Hosts file to block adsJun 08 13:05
DaemonFCbut that is no longer an optionJun 08 13:05
DaemonFC10 years ago an effective ad blocking hosts file would have been maybe 90-100 kilobytesJun 08 13:06
DaemonFCnow you need about 600 kilobytes and it puts a noticable crimp on DNS lookupsJun 08 13:06
splosionthe hosts file used to be where you stored the address of every computer connected to the internet. Imagine how awful that would be nowadaysJun 08 13:07
DaemonFCimpossibleJun 08 13:07
DaemonFCI just use it to block thingsJun 08 13:07
DaemonFCI have all of Microsoft's ad servers in thereJun 08 13:07
DaemonFCand AOL'sJun 08 13:07
splosionnever had cause to use mine reallyJun 08 13:09
fewaDaemonFC, just install adblock, it does all that automaticallyJun 08 13:09
DaemonFCBFilter kills all the ads in Windows Live Messenger anywayJun 08 13:09
DaemonFCI just don't like that shit cropping up in Messenger if I disable BFilter for a few minutes for whatever reasonJun 08 13:10
DaemonFCcause then I have to deal with it til I restart the programJun 08 13:10
DaemonFC:PJun 08 13:10
fewaDaemonFC, just use pidgin, get rid of that shitJun 08 13:12
DaemonFCcan't do video calls with PidginJun 08 13:12
fewathen use ekiga, or google talk clientJun 08 13:12
DaemonFCthen you have to convince the rest of the people in the worldJun 08 13:13
fewagoogle's jingle is at least a open protocolJun 08 13:13
DaemonFCand I don't envy you that taskJun 08 13:13
fewaand jingle is supported by many more than msn, its supported by every gmail userJun 08 13:13
MinceRhow typical, a m$ cultist using his cultist friends as an excuse :>Jun 08 13:13
DaemonFCnot cultist, more like cluelessJun 08 13:14
MinceRyou're both, actually :>Jun 08 13:15
DaemonFCif I went to Ekiga I would be one of the BOLD DOZENSJun 08 13:15
DaemonFCright?Jun 08 13:15
DaemonFClolJun 08 13:15
DaemonFCthrow down the oppressive shackles and use a VOIP program that nobody has!Jun 08 13:17
MinceRafaik ekiga uses standardsJun 08 13:17
DaemonFCI say verily, you need a $1,000 machine in front of you to talk to yourselfJun 08 13:17
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DaemonFCit's not a standard if nobody uses itJun 08 13:17
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DaemonFCcall it whatever you likeJun 08 13:18
mib_wuq3z8trmanco: lol, more censorship of us?Jun 08 13:18
MinceRit supports both SIP and H.323Jun 08 13:18
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MinceRthey're pretty widely usedJun 08 13:18
mib_wuq3z8figures the mono camp are trying to portray us as trollsJun 08 13:18
MinceRin VoIP phones, for exampleJun 08 13:18
DaemonFCyeah Microsoft Netmeeting uses H.323Jun 08 13:18
trmancomib_wuq3z8, who are you? yeah, looks something like thatJun 08 13:18
DaemonFCbut it's deprecatedJun 08 13:18
MinceRDaemonFC: but don't let facts get in the way of your "reasoning"Jun 08 13:18
DaemonFCtheir last update was to make it work with Vista, but it's since been abandonedJun 08 13:19
MinceRDaemonFC: so if m$ abandons a standard, it isn't a standard anymore?Jun 08 13:19
MinceRDaemonFC: can you out match that clueless idea?Jun 08 13:19
DaemonFCmay as well not beJun 08 13:19
MinceRs/ut /ut/Jun 08 13:19
DaemonFCwhen 90% of the planet doesn't have itJun 08 13:19
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MinceRso HTML and CSS aren't standards eitherJun 08 13:19
fewamore people need to add Ghettoblaster and HAl to their feed lisks, and police their FUDster editsJun 08 13:19
MinceRactually neither is IRCJun 08 13:20
DaemonFCMinceR: Nobody uses anything that IE can't handle if they want to stay in businessJun 08 13:20
MinceRDaemonFC: m$ abandoned IRC, so get off it alreadyJun 08 13:20
DaemonFCso you could point out that until IE no longer has an appreciable usage share, it is the standardJun 08 13:20
DaemonFCbecause everything that every site does usually is limited to what IE can doJun 08 13:21
trmancopeople don't understand that this problem would be solved by just making a default install with no mono on itJun 08 13:21
MinceRie is a standard what? standard backdoor with gui?Jun 08 13:21
fewahttp://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Special:Contributions/Ghettoblaster http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Special:Contributions&target=HAlJun 08 13:21
DaemonFCno, I just gave you a perfect example of why IE is a de facto standardJun 08 13:21
trmancofor those who need or wan't mono on their system, could just use their package manager to install itJun 08 13:21
DaemonFCbecause of number of usersJun 08 13:21
MinceRDaemonFC: m$ doesn't support IRC and has replaced it with m$n messenger, so piss off and chat with your cultist friends thereJun 08 13:21
DaemonFCFirefox even emulates itJun 08 13:21
fewaDaemonFC, "de-facto" standard, bullshitJun 08 13:21
DaemonFCelse Firefox couldn't render pages rightJun 08 13:21
trmancoI really don't get it...Jun 08 13:21
MinceRDaemonFC: why don't you ask some web developers about those "standards"?Jun 08 13:22
trmancoDaemonFC, when was that? FF 1.0?Jun 08 13:22
trmancoFF saved the web devs asses back thenJun 08 13:22
DaemonFCuntil IE does not control what practically every website does, then it is a de facto standard for what the web is limited toJun 08 13:22
fewaDaemonFC, bullshit, the standards are the W3 standardsJun 08 13:23
DaemonFCwrongJun 08 13:23
trmancoweb devs finally started to have a browser that would comply with the w3c standardsJun 08 13:23
DaemonFCthe standards have always been whatever browser throws the most weight aroundJun 08 13:23
fewapeople will grancefully degrade to IE's shit, but not when people switch to better browsersJun 08 13:23
trmancothat is what microsoft want it to beJun 08 13:23
trmancowantsJun 08 13:23
DaemonFCthey usually base their engine loosely on those W3C "standards"Jun 08 13:23
fewaDaemonFC, utter bullshit, have you seen the US v Microsoft depositionJun 08 13:24
splosionDaemonFC: HTML5 and Wave and other apps will kick IE in the teeth. If they can't keep up with the rest of the world, more fool themJun 08 13:24
DaemonFCThe w3c is meaningless until IE implements itJun 08 13:24
DaemonFCor until IE is no longer a must-supportJun 08 13:24
DaemonFCthe least common denominatorJun 08 13:25
DaemonFCwith the most usersJun 08 13:25
DaemonFCsets the standardJun 08 13:25
MinceRthe w3c determines what the standards areJun 08 13:25
DaemonFCwrongJun 08 13:25
DaemonFCIE doesJun 08 13:25
MinceRm$ can't even document what it hacks upJun 08 13:25
MinceRso by definition what ie does is not a standardJun 08 13:25
splosionhave you seen the Wave video, btw, DaemonFC ? mindblowing stuff. it's the sort of thing that'll lose microsoft millions of users of IE as far as I can tellJun 08 13:25
DaemonFCuntil IE is no longer the most used browser, it has the say in what goes onJun 08 13:26
MinceRDaemonFC: it has the say in what goes on in your tiny, retarded mindJun 08 13:26
DaemonFCnoJun 08 13:26
MinceR(if that can be called a "mind" at all)Jun 08 13:26
DaemonFCevery website works in IE because they don't use your so-called standardsJun 08 13:26
DaemonFCso that means the standards aren't used and are meaninglessJun 08 13:26
DaemonFCshow me any major site that has said "To hell with Internet Explorer, to hell with 66% of our visitors"Jun 08 13:27
DaemonFC"We're going to piss in the wind with STANDARDS"Jun 08 13:27
splosionDaemonFC: IE is still a must-support, as you put it, but grudgingly so. I haven't met a single web developer who wants IE to burn in hell. Developers will take any chance they can get to be able to not fuck around with hacks to make IE work. The rest of the world can't carry on supporting IE foreverJun 08 13:27
splosionwho doesn't want*Jun 08 13:28
MinceRhttp://www.wedontsupportie.com/Jun 08 13:28
DaemonFCmy point is not that IE is great, my point is that it has 2/3rds of the web usersJun 08 13:28
DaemonFCso it controls every sites contentJun 08 13:28
DaemonFCmost sites still refuse to break IE 6Jun 08 13:29
MinceRhttp://blog.hishamrana.com/2006/02/19/how-to-internet-explorer-warning-infobarJun 08 13:29
DaemonFCthey're too afraid to even ask users to upgrade to IE 8Jun 08 13:29
DaemonFCso there are no web standardJun 08 13:29
DaemonFCthere's only what IE 6 can doJun 08 13:30
DaemonFC:PJun 08 13:30
trmanco66%Jun 08 13:30
trmanco...Jun 08 13:30
MinceRhttp://www.marco.org/82950480Jun 08 13:30
trmancoI don't even careJun 08 13:30
MinceRDaemonFC: ^^^ just a few proofs that you've been spewing bullshit.Jun 08 13:30
trmancopeople who use IE6 are total idiots and should stay away from a computerJun 08 13:30
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MinceRhttp://www.webdesignerwall.com/general/trash-all-ie-hacks/Jun 08 13:31
trmancoit's because of the crap software they web did not evolve those daysJun 08 13:31
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MinceRpeople who use IE are total idiots and should stay away from a computerJun 08 13:31
DaemonFCand his infobar does not pop upJun 08 13:31
MinceRthere, fixed that for youJun 08 13:31
DaemonFCso he's an idiotJun 08 13:31
MinceRDaemonFC: don't worry, you're still the bigger idiotJun 08 13:32
splosionDaemonFC: the things HTML5 can do pretty much ensure people will leave IE in droves. no one will bother making that shit work in IE. it'll probably be impossible. People will dump IE. So they should. good fucking riddanceJun 08 13:32
DaemonFCand IE does do the layout rightJun 08 13:32
DaemonFCso he fails againJun 08 13:32
splosionhttp://www.zdnet.com.au/blogs/null-pointer/soa/Blog-Google-Wave-to-miss-IE6/0,2001102868,339296708,00.htm so long IE6, thenJun 08 13:34
DaemonFCI've never had warm feelings for IE 6Jun 08 13:35
DaemonFCI had a feeling it was going to be trouble before they even released itJun 08 13:35
DaemonFCthe last version of IE I used routinely was IE 5.5Jun 08 13:36
splosionI think the last version of IE I used was version 4Jun 08 13:36
splosionlong time agoJun 08 13:37
DaemonFCand still ripping CDsJun 08 13:41
DaemonFC:PJun 08 13:41
DaemonFCI'm taking them over to the computer a stack at a timeJun 08 13:42
DaemonFCI'm up to Green DayJun 08 13:42
DaemonFCevery CD of theirs :PJun 08 13:42
DaemonFCI think I'll finish this stack and the AC/DC and then take a breakJun 08 13:44
DaemonFC:PJun 08 13:44
MinceRnobody caresJun 08 13:45
DaemonFCMinceR: Just because you're bitter doesn't mean that you have to be a jackass tooJun 08 13:45
DaemonFCjust throwing that out thereJun 08 13:46
MinceRDaemonFC: just because you disagree with the audience of this channel doesn't mean you have to continually crapflood itJun 08 13:46
MinceRperhaps your cultist friends are interested what you're doing; we aren'tJun 08 13:47
DaemonFCcultist?Jun 08 13:48
MinceRmicro$oft cultistJun 08 13:49
MinceRthose who have drank the kool-aid with youJun 08 13:49
DaemonFCUse what works for me cultistJun 08 13:50
DaemonFCthat's a thoughtJun 08 13:50
DaemonFCit can be a cult consisting of just meJun 08 13:50
MinceRthe people who care about your supposedly 1337 vista screenshotsJun 08 13:50
MinceRthe people who use IRC while claiming something that was abandoned by m$ doesn't exist anymore, and by which reasoning IRC doesn't eitherJun 08 13:50
DaemonFCno, IRC is basic and was never intended to be anything butJun 08 13:51
MinceRor perhaps your cultist friends are more consistent and are only on m$n messengerJun 08 13:51
MinceR(or whatever it's called after 9001 rebrandings)Jun 08 13:51
DaemonFCwhen Pidgin dumbs down instant messaging protocols to be far less usefulJun 08 13:51
DaemonFCit has broken themJun 08 13:51
MinceRwhich m$ im app handles more than one protocol?Jun 08 13:52
MinceRthat's right, none of them doesJun 08 13:52
DaemonFCWLM supports Yahoo Messenger contactsJun 08 13:52
fewahow useful is a IM program if it cant contact anyone DaemonFC ?Jun 08 13:52
MinceRit can contact anyone he wants to contactJun 08 13:52
splosionDaemon: hrmm. for x in /media/stuff/Music/g*; do echo -en $x | sed -e 's#/media/stuff/Music/#, #'; done --- here are my musical Gs: girl_talk, god_is_an_astronaut, godspeed_you!_black_emperor, goldfrapp, gomez, gorillaz, grandaddy, great_lake_swimmers, grouperJun 08 13:52
splosionnot so many Gs :(Jun 08 13:52
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DaemonFCanyone on Yahoo or Windows LiveJun 08 13:52
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MinceRthe sad part is that he also uses comic chat and so can connect hereJun 08 13:53
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fewahe uses xchatJun 08 13:53
MinceRor perhaps mircJun 08 13:53
DaemonFC-DaemonFC- VERSION xchat 2.8.7e Windows 6.0 [i686/2.33GHz]Jun 08 13:53
MinceRwhat happened, "standard" m$ crap isn't good enough for you?Jun 08 13:53
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DaemonFCMicrosoft has never prevented you from using IRC on WindowsJun 08 13:54
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MinceRthey never prevented you from using a web browser that supports web standards either, have they?Jun 08 13:54
splosiondoes Microsoft even have an mIRC client?Jun 08 13:54
splosionwhoops. -mJun 08 13:54
DaemonFCgrabbing XChat is no different than DOWNLOADING it on LinuxJun 08 13:54
MinceRthey have comic chatJun 08 13:54
DaemonFCbecause it doesn't actually come with Ubuntu you knowJun 08 13:54
DaemonFCso that means Ubuntu users can't use IRCJun 08 13:55
splosionoh shit yeah. forgot baout that. those were the daysJun 08 13:55
MinceRmincer@stormwind(pts/1) % apt-cache search xchatJun 08 13:55
MinceRxchat-gnome - a new frontend to the popular X-Chat IRC clientJun 08 13:55
DaemonFCComic Chat actually still does work on VistaJun 08 13:55
MinceRguess againJun 08 13:55
DaemonFCxchat-gnome A dumbed down client for inbred fucktards that are confused and frightened by useful programsJun 08 13:55
DaemonFC:)Jun 08 13:56
DaemonFCfixed it for youJun 08 13:56
*MinceR sighsJun 08 13:56
fewaxchat-gnome sucksJun 08 13:56
MinceRxchat - IRC client for X similar to AmIRCJun 08 13:56
fewabut xchat is awesomeJun 08 13:56
MinceRDaemonFC: satisfied now, fucktard?Jun 08 13:56
fewaand DaemonFC is an trolling assholeJun 08 13:56
DaemonFCI never said XChat was badJun 08 13:56
DaemonFCbut xchat-gnome isn't even made by Peter ZeleznyJun 08 13:56
fewaDaemonFC, why wont you use linux?Jun 08 13:56
DaemonFCand they use the name illegallyJun 08 13:57
DaemonFCthe license requires you to not call it XChat unless you use their source or get it from themJun 08 13:57
DaemonFCit's a trademarkJun 08 13:57
DaemonFCthe code defaults to calling it YChat if you compile it yourselfJun 08 13:58
trmancofewa, yeah, agreedJun 08 13:58
MinceRi don't care about xchatJun 08 13:58
DaemonFCit's actually one of the better IRC clientsJun 08 13:59
fewaDaemonFC needs to switch to linux and stop being nitpicky when there is so much stuff out thereJun 08 13:59
splosionbitches don't know bout my mibbit...Jun 08 13:59
trmancoyeah, GUI basedJun 08 13:59
MinceRhe isn't nitpickyJun 08 13:59
MinceRhe uses vista, for instanceJun 08 13:59
MinceRone can't be nitpicky to use that kind of crapJun 08 13:59
DaemonFCI'm considering preordering Windows 7 for the $50 promoJun 08 14:00
MinceRit's your money, not oursJun 08 14:00
MinceRalso, we don't careJun 08 14:00
DaemonFCif I wait til later, it could go to $120Jun 08 14:00
fewaDaemonFC, WE DONT FUCKING CAREJun 08 14:00
trmancoMicrosoft Advertising Bing Through Google AdSense: http://blogoscoped.com/archive/2009-06-08-n36.htmlJun 08 14:01
DaemonFCtrmanco: Old newsJun 08 14:01
trmancobing is old news alreadyJun 08 14:01
trmancoah.. good thenJun 08 14:01
DaemonFCI did get a laugh when I noticed them doing it thoughJun 08 14:01
MinceRgoogle is stupid enough to let anyone advertiseJun 08 14:02
MinceRso they deserve itJun 08 14:02
DaemonFCit's incomeJun 08 14:02
MinceRthey let malware authors advertise too, afaikJun 08 14:02
DaemonFCplus Microsoft could sueJun 08 14:02
MinceR(i mean malware authors other than crApple and m$)Jun 08 14:02
DaemonFCif they didn't let them advertiseJun 08 14:02
MinceRwhat law says they have to let anyone advertise?Jun 08 14:02
DaemonFCSherman Act would be what I'd cite if I sued them for locking me outJun 08 14:03
DaemonFC:)Jun 08 14:03
splosionof all the people I know, most of them use Windows. Still I've never heard of anyone actually buying Windows. People just buy computers. You're probably the first person I've met who is actually going to buy Windows, DaemonFCJun 08 14:03
DaemonFChehJun 08 14:03
DaemonFCyeah, strange concept of people not pirating everything isn't it?Jun 08 14:04
MinceRstrange concept of people paying for something that will only harm themJun 08 14:04
MinceRbut drug users do that tooJun 08 14:04
MinceRs/drug/narcotic/Jun 08 14:05
MinceRand "pirating" isn't the only alternativeJun 08 14:05
splosionI don't mean that. I mean how 99% of the WIndows-using world aquired their WIndows Licences when they bought a computer. I don't know a single person who actually went and bought XP or Vista discs.Jun 08 14:05
MinceRmost people get scammed into buying windows preinstalled.Jun 08 14:05
MinceRoften they don't even get a choiceJun 08 14:06
MinceRthe fact that such things happen prove that there's no protection against anticompetitive practices in the usaJun 08 14:06
splosionPeople would probably stick with fucking z/OS if that's what came installed on their computers when they bought themJun 08 14:06
DaemonFCthere's no law that you can't buy a computer with LinuxJun 08 14:07
splosionit's the greatest barrier to Linux adoptionJun 08 14:07
DaemonFCpeople choose not toJun 08 14:07
splosionerror. OEMs choose not offer itJun 08 14:07
MinceROEMs choose to make deals with m$ that prohibit them from offering itJun 08 14:07
DaemonFCbecause they know they can't sell itJun 08 14:07
MinceRbecause m$ threatens with raising prices otherwiseJun 08 14:07
DaemonFCno they don'tJun 08 14:08
MinceRyes they doJun 08 14:08
splosionyes they do. This was all revealed in the Comes caseJun 08 14:08
DaemonFCthey can'tJun 08 14:08
DaemonFCthat would be illegalJun 08 14:08
MinceRlolJun 08 14:08
MinceR"that's crazy! the government doesn't lie to people!"Jun 08 14:08
DaemonFCDell sells Ubuntu computersJun 08 14:09
MinceRdell also pays patent protection moneyJun 08 14:09
DaemonFCif the Windows price was going to go up, they wouldn't risk that for a 1% increase in businessJun 08 14:09
MinceRalso, dell isn't the only OEMJun 08 14:09
DaemonFCI think in the end, that consumer demand is what drives salesJun 08 14:10
MinceRnot reallyJun 08 14:10
DaemonFCnobody held a gun to anyones head and made them buy a Windows machineJun 08 14:10
DaemonFCthey went there and paid for oneJun 08 14:10
MinceRyou can't buy what isn't soldJun 08 14:10
DaemonFCthey're soldJun 08 14:10
splosionDell's actually offering a pretty decent laptop now for $300 with Ubuntu preinstalled. it'll be interesting to see how well it does, seeing as the Windows equivalent costs $100 moreJun 08 14:10
MinceRin that case, i have an assignment for youJun 08 14:11
DaemonFCyou see, you want the choice to be there, and then when everyone chooses WindowsJun 08 14:11
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DaemonFCit's "those damned M$ tricks L0L!!!!1111"Jun 08 14:11
MinceRDaemonFC: find me a Lenovo ThinkPad W500 for sale without windows on it.Jun 08 14:11
DaemonFCwhy do you give a shit if it's a Lenovo?Jun 08 14:11
trmancoMicrosoft upset with Intel: http://www.fudzilla.com/content/view/14108/38/Jun 08 14:11
MinceRbecause of the qualityJun 08 14:11
MinceRit probably won't fall apart in a year like this shitty dell inspironJun 08 14:12
DaemonFCSystem76?Jun 08 14:12
DaemonFCtried them?Jun 08 14:12
MinceRDaemonFC: as for the "tricks L0L" go and read the m$ internal email presented in the Comes case; until then, shut the fuck up about the issue because you don't know shit about it.Jun 08 14:12
MinceRDaemonFC: they don't sell stuff in hungaryJun 08 14:13
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DaemonFCMinceR: Windows is a lot harder to avoid on a laptopJun 08 14:46
DaemonFCI will give you thatJun 08 14:46
DaemonFCfor a desktop though there's really no excuseJun 08 14:46
DaemonFCif push came to shove, nobody stops you from building one yourselfJun 08 14:47
MinceRso what if i want a laptop?Jun 08 14:47
MinceRshould i instead carry around a desktop pc, a desktop monitor, a keyboard, a mouse and a portable generator? :>Jun 08 14:48
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DaemonFCwell, I'm not in Hungary, so how the hell should I know?Jun 08 14:48
DaemonFCDeal with itJun 08 14:48
MinceRwell, antitrust authorities are supposedly paid to deal with stuff like thisJun 08 14:48
MinceRmy point is that they don't do their jobJun 08 14:48
MinceRinterestingly in the usa the law protects the megacorps but nobody elseJun 08 14:49
DaemonFCthat's your problemJun 08 14:49
DaemonFCI have a choice of what to buyJun 08 14:49
MinceRyou do because you only want windowsJun 08 14:49
MinceRand the "choice" you're after is "vista or vista7"Jun 08 14:49
DaemonFCno, I could easily go buy System76 or a DellbuntuJun 08 14:49
DaemonFC:PJun 08 14:50
MinceRneither of which would be a thinkpadJun 08 14:50
DaemonFCI don't want a ThinkpadJun 08 14:50
splosionI walk into a computer retailer and I see Windows PCs and Windows Laptops and XP netbooks. Linux isn't anywhere to be seen. You can't use the "but people don't want it" argument. They aren't being given a choice. that's antitrust material right thereJun 08 14:51
DaemonFCeven with Windows on itJun 08 14:51
fewaDaemonFC, dell sells laptops with ubuntu pre-installed, ive installed ubuntu on laptops and everything worksJun 08 14:51
fewahow is it hard to avoid windows? the new arm netbooks wont ever support windows?Jun 08 14:51
DaemonFCif you gave me a Thinkpad for free I'd take itJun 08 14:51
DaemonFCbut I'd never go buy oneJun 08 14:51
fewasplosion, dell had a $300 capable laptopJun 08 14:51
fewasoo cheepJun 08 14:52
twitterfewa, it is next to impossible to avoid the M$ tax.Jun 08 14:52
MinceRlike i said, dell pays protection moneyJun 08 14:52
splosionall this stuff is online. nobody is offering it in the stores.Jun 08 14:52
fewatwitter, with the normal windows tax $300 would be a very hard price pointJun 08 14:52
twitterYes, fewa, but not impossible.Jun 08 14:52
MinceRoffering a choice of a linux image or even no os or freedos would be a trivial matter, with minimal costsJun 08 14:52
MinceRtherefore the "but people don't want it" argument is mootJun 08 14:53
fewabut yes, microsoft engages in anti-competitive policies to exclude all non-windows systems, oreventing them from competingJun 08 14:53
MinceRyou can't tell if people want it on that particular model if you've never offered itJun 08 14:53
MinceRyou can't tell if people want it if you did offer it once, but made it hard to getJun 08 14:53
fewatwitter, look at it: dell.com/ubuntu, it looks pretty incredibleJun 08 14:53
twitterOEMs that sell Windows that don't do M$'s dace will be punished in multiple ways.Jun 08 14:53
MinceRyou can't tell if people want it if your webshop is full of "<OEM> recommends Microsoft Windows" messages everywhereJun 08 14:53
twitterthey see their prices jacked up and their hardware sabotagedJun 08 14:54
MinceRso no, you don't know if people want Linux on their laptops or not.Jun 08 14:54
MinceRthey playing field has never ever been level.Jun 08 14:54
MinceRs/ey/e/Jun 08 14:54
splosionyou can't tell if people would like to use Linux if you offered a difficult to get hold of gimped-hardware laptop or netbook with a completely shit ty Linux distro that doesn't even work properly.Jun 08 14:54
fewasplosion, the dell's are no that way AFAIHHJun 08 14:54
fewahp also ships ubuntuJun 08 14:55
twitterM$ is losing it's grip but it still abuses everyone in the PC chain from manufacturer to retailJun 08 14:55
splosionyeah Dell have been pretty good with their Linux stuffJun 08 14:55
MinceRmaybe once they shipped ubuntu for a weekJun 08 14:55
MinceRno, dell has never been pretty good with their linux stuffJun 08 14:55
fewadell has been shipping ubuntu for a whileJun 08 14:55
MinceRat most they offered 1 laptop model with itJun 08 14:55
MinceRand 1 server and 1 desktopJun 08 14:55
MinceRand that's itJun 08 14:55
MinceRmaybe also 1 subnotebookJun 08 14:55
splosionwell, it's a startJun 08 14:55
fewawell i dont buy stuff that way, i always buy piecesJun 08 14:55
MinceRand you had to hunt them down on the websiteJun 08 14:56
MinceRbecause they never linked to itJun 08 14:56
splosiongranted. Dell's linux page is completely hidden from their main pageJun 08 14:56
fewabut people spend $1000+ on alptops, its nice to show they they can get functionality for much less, with more battery life, and in a smaller chassisJun 08 14:56
MinceRthey never sold the model i'm using with linux, i've got it with freedosJun 08 14:56
MinceR(and they never offered it with freedos on their webshop either)Jun 08 14:56
DaemonFChmmm, Sony/BMG, yuckJun 08 14:57
MinceRi considered myself lucky i could get such a dealJun 08 14:57
*DaemonFC goes and washes his mouth outJun 08 14:57
fewaDaemonFC, did anyone bring that up?Jun 08 14:57
DaemonFCit's in the tag of a song I'm playingJun 08 14:57
DaemonFCI didn't even know they published thisJun 08 14:57
splosionwhich album?Jun 08 14:58
DaemonFCAC/DC's Black IceJun 08 14:59
splosionis that soJun 08 14:59
DaemonFCyupJun 08 14:59
splosionrm -r /media/stuff/Music/ac\\dcJun 08 15:00
splosionshame really. quite fond of themJun 08 15:00
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MinceRwell, grab a torrent.Jun 08 15:00
fewaOEM's also have an interest in the low-security, high-cost, low-lifespan windows worldJun 08 15:01
fewait sells PCsJun 08 15:01
DaemonFCFedora 11 lands tomorrowJun 08 15:05
fewai knowJun 08 15:05
DaemonFCunless they delay againJun 08 15:05
DaemonFCit's also going to be compatible with Microsoft ExchangeJun 08 15:06
DaemonFChttp://news.zdnet.co.uk/software/0,1000000121,39659346,00.htmJun 08 15:06
DaemonFCRelease 11 of Red Hat's Fedora project will include a technology designed to give any email client native access to Microsoft Exchange.Jun 08 15:07
fewaits called gnomeJun 08 15:07
MinceRit's called Evolution? :>Jun 08 15:08
DaemonFCnoJun 08 15:08
DaemonFCEvolution uses WebDAVJun 08 15:08
fewaMinceR, your rightJun 08 15:08
DaemonFCwhich is bad supportJun 08 15:08
DaemonFCwhich is preferable to noneJun 08 15:08
DaemonFCbut apparently OpenChange is 100% compatible through libmapiJun 08 15:08
fewaDaemonFC, how about people migrate to products that support open standardsJun 08 15:09
MinceRit's unthinkable!Jun 08 15:09
fewaSMTP, POP3, these have seem around for yearsJun 08 15:09
MinceRat least to devout cultists like DaemonFCJun 08 15:09
DaemonFCfewa: Comapnies would prefer to do it in phasesJun 08 15:09
DaemonFCso they need transitional supportJun 08 15:09
MinceRif their god, ballmer doesn't say it's ok to use those standards then it's forbiddenJun 08 15:09
fewaand wave, which google has promised to fully openJun 08 15:09
DaemonFCmigrating thousands of systems overnight is just not going to happenJun 08 15:09
MinceRwave looks like a real-time mediawiki to meJun 08 15:10
fewaDaemonFC, these standards are older than the internet, they are older than windowsJun 08 15:10
MinceRseeing that you can edit messages from othersJun 08 15:10
fewaMicrosoft has had plenty of time to support themJun 08 15:10
splosionMinceR: yeah I got that impression, too.Jun 08 15:10
MinceRm$ suffers from NIH syndrome, that prevents them from supporting any standardsJun 08 15:10
fewaMinceR, they dont even fallow their own "standards"Jun 08 15:11
fewanoone has implamented OOXMLJun 08 15:11
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fewaand noone ever willJun 08 15:11
DaemonFCUbuntu is a packrat, it takes lots of tiny bits from everywhere and usually builds nothing of it's own (except a nest of course)Jun 08 15:11
MinceRnews flash, that's what distros typically doJun 08 15:12
DaemonFCparasites like UbuntuJun 08 15:12
DaemonFCyeahJun 08 15:12
MinceRthat's what distros were originally aboutJun 08 15:12
MinceRno, the parasite is m$Jun 08 15:12
MinceRand trolls like youJun 08 15:12
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splosionI don't like the idea of Canonical doing a bunch of proprietary shit for Ubuntu, mind you. UF is full of people saying "if only Ubuntu was full of proprietary stuff everything would be okay"Jun 08 15:14
MinceRi don't like several things they're doingJun 08 15:14
MinceRbut that's no reason to badmouth them for things they aren't doing wrongJun 08 15:15
mib_ac4yxalike using the Ubuntu name to flog proptietary softwareJun 08 15:15
splosionsure. (to both of you)Jun 08 15:15
mib_ac4yxaplus if your live in the US it's offsoreJun 08 15:16
mib_ac4yxaoffshored alot of its work to the UKJun 08 15:17
mib_ac4yxawhich is fine unless your a programmer in the US, I guess its either UK in India !Jun 08 15:17
mib_ac4yxaor russia or chinaJun 08 15:18
splosionwhere Canonical chooses to make its home is of no interest to me, tbhJun 08 15:18
splosionplenty of good british programmers :)Jun 08 15:18
mib_ac4yxait would if you worked for them !!Jun 08 15:18
MinceRthe usa and the uk are both evil, so i don't careJun 08 15:18
mib_ac4yxaThey did after all invent them :)Jun 08 15:19
splosionMinceR: c'mon man, we're not all that bad :PJun 08 15:20
mib_ac4yxaAlso its good for the UK sure, but its not good to see the US hemeraging talent and losing leadership is many fieldsJun 08 15:20
MinceRyour governments and leaders areJun 08 15:20
splosion100% agreedJun 08 15:21
splosionluckily the UK gov is in the midst of falling apart. you never know, might not be so bad after they've finished self-destructing. the next bunch of crooks might well be slightly less evilJun 08 15:22
*MinceR hopes for the bestJun 08 15:23
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fewaMinceR, which government and leadership?Jun 08 15:27
MinceRusian and britishJun 08 15:30
MinceR(though not only)Jun 08 15:30
fewaSonia Sotomayor doesnt seem untalentedJun 08 15:31
DaemonFCShe's going to be a pushover for the RIAAJun 08 15:31
fewayeah, and replaceing a excellent justice: SouterJun 08 15:31
fewaIve havnt seen a opinion of souter i have disagreed withJun 08 15:32
fewaalso that bigot scalia really screws the poochJun 08 15:34
splosionmicrosoft Jack salivates over Bing: http://www.guardian.co.uk/technology/2009/jun/08/netbytes-microsoft-bingJun 08 15:35
splosionhrmm. actually it's not very salivatory at all. ah wellJun 08 15:36
fewa"Microsoft's Steve Ballmer said Bing was one of the few available short names that worked on a worldwide basis."Jun 08 15:36
fewabs, its just BING Is Not GoogleJun 08 15:37
splosionand then these guys http://www.itproportal.com/portal/news/article/2009/6/8/microsoft-bing-us-market-share-already-waning/?article_page say that Bing usage is already on the waneJun 08 15:37
fewacause people realie its a "decision engine", ie the decision of microsoftJun 08 15:38
splosionooh, interview with microsoft marketing drone http://www.computerworld.com/action/article.do?command=viewArticleBasic&articleId=9134091&intsrc=news_ts_headJun 08 15:39
schestowitzYuck, MS JackJun 08 15:39
schestowitzLuckily, he'll go our of business with that paper he writes for Jun 08 15:40
schestowitzGroaniad.Jun 08 15:40
schestowitzLucky for him, he must be near retirement anywayJun 08 15:40
splosion"Are you ever surprised, though, at the contrast? After all, on a technical level, you could say Windows 7 is "Vista Reloaded" or Vista Service Pack 3 without much exaggeration. The development of Windows 7 started a few months even before Vista shipped. It was based on the fundamental premise that we would start with the customer. It would not be a "Field ofJun 08 15:40
schestowitzHe's been attacking Linux recentlyJun 08 15:40
schestowitzMist mean Linux does wellJun 08 15:40
splosionGreat to hear a MS exec say that win7 is a vista service pack, thereJun 08 15:40
MinceRhe won't be a m$ exec for long then :>Jun 08 15:41
splosionroy: the only paper worth reading was, is, and always will be the Private Eye. shame they don't write about tech issues, thoughJun 08 15:43
fewahttp://www.rapidcityjournal.com/articles/2009/06/04/news/local/doc4a26be929b134639509302.txtJun 08 15:45
fewaextra 5000 votes from nowhereJun 08 15:46
splosionhttp://www.computerworld.com/comments/node/9134091#comment-526084 hoping my comment gets recognised and argued aboutJun 08 15:51
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DaemonFCScalia is basically Hitler of the supreme courtJun 08 15:57
DaemonFCthat guy is insaneJun 08 15:57
DaemonFCa religious fanatic appointed by a religious fanaticJun 08 15:57
EruaranI have no idea who you are talking aboutJun 08 15:57
amarsh04fewa - plenty of places called "nowhere else": http://users.chariot.net.au/~michaelc/outbeach/nowhere.htmJun 08 16:00
fewalol, maybe they flew to south dakota for this one vote :PJun 08 16:01
schestowitzDoes Microsoft Hijack the Term “Netbook”? < http://boycottnovell.com/2009/06/08/microsoft-brand-control/ >Jun 08 16:02
Eruaranamarsh04: I just knew that had to be an Australian signJun 08 16:02
DaemonFCschestowitz: Microsoft was betting on "Tablet PCs" to take rootJun 08 16:02
DaemonFCback in like 2004Jun 08 16:02
amarsh04there's one in Tasmania as wellJun 08 16:02
DaemonFCeven made an XP Tablet PC Edition for itJun 08 16:03
amarsh04lots of .lb citizens in .au were flown to .lb to vote in recent electionsJun 08 16:03
DaemonFCridiculous ideaJun 08 16:03
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DaemonFCterrible battery lifeJun 08 16:03
DaemonFCheavyJun 08 16:03
DaemonFCexpensiveJun 08 16:03
fewamah, touch screens are cool, the idea isnt badJun 08 16:03
fewabut of course microsoft cant implament itJun 08 16:03
_Hicham_but it is DaemonFC compatible at leastJun 08 16:04
_Hicham_not everything is DaemonFC compatibleJun 08 16:04
fewaiPhone was the first real successful implamentation of a touch screenJun 08 16:04
_Hicham_Hi DaemonFC !Jun 08 16:04
DaemonFCyeah, thats just because Apple has a cult and Microsoft just had IT drones and users that want a cheap PC that worksJun 08 16:05
EruaranThe first ARM netbooks will give you 10 hours battery life on a 3 cell battery.Jun 08 16:05
DaemonFCtwo different markets, but Microsoft seems to think it can cross sell to Apple customersJun 08 16:05
DaemonFCwhich has never had good resultsJun 08 16:05
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Eruaranfewa: I would say multi-touch screen more accuratelyJun 08 16:07
mib_ac4yxawant a cheap PC that works, ,, Umm yea please :)Jun 08 16:07
DaemonFCMicrosoft doesn't have the kind of customer that spends $500 on a fancy monitorJun 08 16:07
DaemonFCApple could sell something like thatJun 08 16:07
fewaDaemonFC, it doesnt cost that, there were ones for $400Jun 08 16:08
fewafor the whole laptopJun 08 16:08
DaemonFCyeah, and a decent 22" LCD is about $200Jun 08 16:08
DaemonFCwhat?Jun 08 16:08
fewayeah, my brother purchaced oneJun 08 16:08
DaemonFCOK, a 15" touchscreen from a far east no name runs $250Jun 08 16:09
fewadefinetely not top of the line, but it workedJun 08 16:09
EruaranThe 22" is the new 19"Jun 08 16:09
DaemonFCfuck thatJun 08 16:09
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fewaDaemonFC, thats only markup, kiosks, etc buy them for much cheaper, and in quantityJun 08 16:09
EruaranI don't think Microsoft trying to get people to think netbooks are closer to a mobile phone than a notebook is going to hurt ARM based netbooksJun 08 16:10
EruaranIf anything it might helpJun 08 16:10
Eruaranmanufacturers never wanted them to become little notebooksJun 08 16:11
mib_ac4yxaa netbook does not have any "net" benifits over a normal laptop.Jun 08 16:11
Eruaranand the perception of them as little notebooks lead people to ask annoying questions like "does it run XP ?"Jun 08 16:11
mib_ac4yxaIt's far more a cut down laptop than a phone.Jun 08 16:11
splosionpeople will be surprised when they discover a fully-featured linux distro on their "not a real notebook" computers, thoughJun 08 16:11
Eruaransplosion: exactlyJun 08 16:12
MinceR171747 < amarsh04> lots of .lb citizens in .au were flown to .lb to vote in recent electionsJun 08 16:12
MinceRwhy didn't they vote at their local embassy?Jun 08 16:12
EruaranAnd we are talking about the iPhone generation nowJun 08 16:12
MinceRisn't that what they normally do?Jun 08 16:12
mib_ac4yxanot really, they allready get them with fully blown Win XPJun 08 16:12
Eruaranthe people who don't care what you call itJun 08 16:12
splosionmib_ac4yxa: yeah, but not for longJun 08 16:12
splosionand all Microsoft is offering ARM-books is CE. that's shit and everybody who's used it says the sameJun 08 16:13
Eruaransplosion: no, I discovered some numbskulls who think its better than Android (on youtube)Jun 08 16:14
Eruaran;)Jun 08 16:14
amarsh04MinceR... not sure, maybe the voting rules didn't allow for Lebanese citizens to vote outside of LebanonJun 08 16:14
mib_ac4yxait does mean they have the ability to compile for the ARM or the ATOM as necessary, linux does not have a monopoly of what CPU it can be compiled onJun 08 16:14
Eruaranmib_ac4yxa: just a better track recordJun 08 16:15
mib_ac4yxabut its no advantage for either partyJun 08 16:16
amarsh04mib_ac4yxa ... linux isn't restricted (too much) on choice of cpu, but neither is netbsdJun 08 16:16
splosionmib_ac4yxa: sure they might be able to port win7 or similar to ARM, but they're going to have a hard time getting third party devs to port their apps tooJun 08 16:16
MinceRsplosion: they're giving up on CE already :)Jun 08 16:16
MinceRi wonder if m$ will pimp netbsd for arm subnotebooksJun 08 16:16
MinceRit would be another shooting-themselves-in-the-foot moment :)Jun 08 16:17
splosionayeJun 08 16:17
amarsh04it's only drivers and apps distributed in source code form that allow operating systems to take full advantage of different cpu platformsJun 08 16:17
EruaranMicrosoft will do anything to protect their cocaine like profitsJun 08 16:17
amarsh04and the os of courseJun 08 16:18
amarsh04ms has the .au education market tied up too much... adelaide.edu.au is even less free-software friendly than when I worked thereJun 08 16:19
mib_ac4yxabut if your building for a single chipset/platform (ie netbooks) you only need the drivers for that hardware,Jun 08 16:19
fewaEruaran, the profits are waning, microsoft has been having to sell bonds and buy back its stocks to keep it afloatJun 08 16:19
fewaall at a cost of profitJun 08 16:19
Eruaranlets hope soJun 08 16:19
fewaThey also were caught fixing the books look make their profit look smother than it wasJun 08 16:19
fewamicrosoft regularly makes money, looses money, and then makes money againJun 08 16:20
fewaalong with the upgrade tradmillJun 08 16:20
EruaranMicrosoft charging people hundreds of dollars for bits of cardboard and plastic has always outraged meJun 08 16:20
fewanot a very reliable business planJun 08 16:20
mib_ac4yxathen if it outrages you, you dont buy it !Jun 08 16:21
EruaranI dont...Jun 08 16:22
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mib_ac4yxado you pay hundreds of dollars for insurance and most of the time never claim on it ?Jun 08 16:22
mib_ac4yxawhat are you getting for your money ?Jun 08 16:22
fewamib_ac4yxa, the government forces people to buy insuranceJun 08 16:23
EruaranOffice MLK - no physical media - the customer gets a bit of cardboard and a plastic card with a license key on it for close to $400Jun 08 16:23
fewaforces people to subsidize the brokwn systemJun 08 16:23
Eruaranmib_ac4yxa: ask your insurance providerJun 08 16:23
mib_ac4yxaand that does not outrage you as a company selling a product to those ONLY who want to buy itJun 08 16:23
fewamib_ac4yxa, they do all they can to force everyone to buy itJun 08 16:23
fewamainly forcing all computers to come with it preinstalled, and not a optionJun 08 16:24
EruaranMany of our business clients are locked in to M$ formatsJun 08 16:24
fewaThose people do not choose windows, and cannot chooseJun 08 16:24
EruaranIf they felt free to choose they'd choose something elseJun 08 16:24
MinceRi'd prefer investing to insurance anywayJun 08 16:27
fewaMinceR, insurance is not an investment any way you look at itJun 08 16:28
MinceRwell, it's based on oneJun 08 16:28
fewaat most it is a hedge, and all hedges have margin feedJun 08 16:28
MinceRyou pay money regularly, they invest it and then maybe you get back more moneyJun 08 16:28
MinceRi'd rather get it back always and decide for myself whenJun 08 16:29
fewaMinceR, profit made by insurance companies is based on using your money for their own profit, interest-free, and in paying you as little as possible, and forcing you to sue themJun 08 16:29
fewaMinceR, by your reasoning gambling in an investmentJun 08 16:29
mib_ac4yxaprofit is made in insurance companies made on the statistical licklyhood of something happening to you Vs the amount you payJun 08 16:30
MinceRi think that the time between you pay and they pay is also a factorJun 08 16:31
MinceRbblJun 08 16:31
splosionrather long analysis of ms's failing business methods http://seekingalpha.com/article/141907-why-isn-t-microsoft-s-strategy-working-anymoreJun 08 16:31
fewamib_ac4yxa, hardy. Buffets money was entirely based on the interest free loans of insurance businessedJun 08 16:32
mib_ac4yxasure, insurance companies will use the money they are holding for profit, like a bank, but if something bad happens and they have to pay out, they have to liquidateJun 08 16:33
fewamib_ac4yxa, you would be suprised how much differnt it make on how little they can manage to pay, how much they can blame things on their customers, and how much they can sue and fandangle their customers into bankruptcyJun 08 16:33
fewamib_ac4yxa, insurance is a business where you are paying somebody to put you last, putting someone in a position where the worse they treat you, the more money they makeJun 08 16:34
mib_ac4yxaand if you happen to be insuring sub-prime mortage loans, your in big trouble.Jun 08 16:34
fewamib_ac4yxa, not really, because the government will come and bail you out. You will still recieve your golden parachutesJun 08 16:34
fewamib_ac4yxa, the execs didnt loose a dime, all the money lost was those of suckers, fooled by bad accountingJun 08 16:35
fewaby lies of the banking industryJun 08 16:35
mib_ac4yxabear sterns was "bailed out" stock holders got $2 per share, down from several hundred dollarsJun 08 16:35
fewahttp://www.bloomberg.com/apps/news?pid=20601068&sid=a.GJvNfWtCX0&refer=economy Stiglitz Criticizes Bad Bank Plan as Swapping ‘Cash for Trash’Jun 08 16:36
fewahttp://www.bloomberg.com/apps/news?pid=20601087&sid=afYsmJyngAXQ Stiglitz Says Ties to Wall Street Doom Bank RescueJun 08 16:36
fewamib_ac4yxa, but the executives reciever hansom compensation, both in the bubble they caused, and even when their mess burst its blisterJun 08 16:37
mib_ac4yxathats very true, their reward for stupidityJun 08 16:39
schestowitzWhat port does freenode use/IRC? irc.freenode.org:6777?Jun 08 16:40
schestowitz6667?Jun 08 16:40
fewait wasnt stupidity, it was self-aggrandizing interestJun 08 16:40
mib_ac4yxaevil portJun 08 16:40
fewaschestowitz, you are connected to freenodeJun 08 16:40
schestowitzYes, but which port is it?Jun 08 16:40
fewayou should know...6667Jun 08 16:40
schestowitzI'm trying twitfolk.plJun 08 16:44
fewamost irc servers support 6667 for normal, and 6697 for sslJun 08 16:45
trmancohttp://www.kuro5hin.org/?op=displaystory;sid=2001/6/19/05641/7357Jun 08 16:46
*DaemonFC has quit (Read error: 113 (No route to host))Jun 08 16:46
*zer0c00l has quit ("My computer is going down")Jun 08 16:48
*Twitfolk-BN (n=twitfolk@cg131a.halls.manchester.ac.uk) has joined #boycottnovellJun 08 16:49
-Twitfolk-BN/#boycottnovell-[harishpillay] RT @tech65 .@danieltsou will be showing how Gear65 is done with iMovie tmr nite at the Geyland East Library. Do drop by! http://tinyurl. ...Jun 08 16:49
-Twitfolk-BN/#boycottnovell-[danablankenhorn] Who is buried under General Grant's tree? http://bit.ly/CujjaJun 08 16:49
-Twitfolk-BN/#boycottnovell-[makeuseof] MakeUseOf : Normalize All Your MP3 Volume Levels With MP3Gain: Most of us have a huge collection of d.. http://tinyurl.com/l9h9flJun 08 16:49
-Twitfolk-BN/#boycottnovell-[patlibuk] RT EPOorg New brochure "Patents for software http://tinyurl.com/ls2lz2Jun 08 16:49
trmancololJun 08 16:50
schestowitzOK, this is noistJun 08 16:50
schestowitzLet's try another thingJun 08 16:50
schestowitzWe need a BN account in TwitterJun 08 16:50
schestowitzTo aggregate the BN crowdJun 08 16:51
schestowitzIt can do identica tooJun 08 16:51
*Twitfolk-BN has quit (Client Quit)Jun 08 16:51
*Eruaran votes for identicaJun 08 16:53
*neighborlee (n=neighbor@c-24-16-17-168.hsd1.wa.comcast.net) has joined #boycottnovellJun 08 16:53
*_Goblin (n=goblin@cpc2-pool2-0-0-cust146.sotn.cable.ntl.com) has joined #boycottnovellJun 08 16:59
*PetoKraus (n=pk@fsf/member/petokraus) has joined #boycottnovellJun 08 16:59
_Goblinhey allJun 08 17:01
schestowitz_Goblin: I'll add you tooJun 08 17:02
Balrogschestowitz: what's new now?Jun 08 17:02
Balrogsomething with Twitter?Jun 08 17:03
_GoblinAdd me?Jun 08 17:03
schestowitzI'll do identica tooJun 08 17:03
schestowitzWho's got a Twitter account?Jun 08 17:03
Balrog...meJun 08 17:03
schestowitzI'm adding this to an aggregatorJun 08 17:03
_GoblinI think you are already following meJun 08 17:03
schestowitzBalrog: which?Jun 08 17:03
_Goblinhowever not on my identi.caJun 08 17:03
Balroghttp://twitter.com/d235jJun 08 17:04
Balrognot much there, really :/Jun 08 17:04
BalrogI don't have an identi.ca yet ... no one I know uses it, outside of hereJun 08 17:04
_Goblinhttp://identi.ca/openbytesJun 08 17:05
Balrogget a picture; post some updatesJun 08 17:05
_Goblinyeah I feel pretty friendless thereJun 08 17:05
*amarsh04 has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer))Jun 08 17:06
Balrogthere should be an API that allows auto cross postingJun 08 17:06
schestowitzI use PerlJun 08 17:06
_GoblinhmmmJun 08 17:07
_GoblinMr Wilcox....I think I was very wrong about him.Jun 08 17:07
_GoblinSeems he's gone into Microsoft overdrive since he left MS WatchJun 08 17:08
_GoblinI suppose pro Microsoft is the way to go when you are drawing job seekers allowanceJun 08 17:08
_GoblinI noticed a difference in his posting when he admitted he had to return the MAC to Apple.Jun 08 17:09
schestowitzI can't remember tessier 's accountJun 08 17:09
schestowitz_Goblin: yeah, he's a rotten apple :-)Jun 08 17:10
*Twitfolk-BN (n=twitfolk@cg131a.halls.manchester.ac.uk) has joined #boycottnovellJun 08 17:10
-Twitfolk-BN/#boycottnovell-[trmanco] ♺ @TMorais: Software Livre Educacional, porque a educação é bem melhor quando é livre: http://bit.ly/1MZQP6Jun 08 17:10
-Twitfolk-BN/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] Does Microsoft Hijack the Term “Netbook”? < http://ping.fm/b346g >Jun 08 17:10
-Twitfolk-BN/#boycottnovell-[zoobab] Swedish presidency organising closed doors ACTA discussions in order to make filesharing a criminal act: http://i5.be/seJun 08 17:10
-Twitfolk-BN/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] I'm trying twitfolk.plJun 08 17:10
*Twitfolk-BN has quit (Remote closed the connection)Jun 08 17:10
schestowitzOK, this should work nowJun 08 17:10
*Twitfolk-BN (n=twitfolk@cg131a.halls.manchester.ac.uk) has joined #boycottnovellJun 08 17:12
-Twitfolk-BN/#boycottnovell-[trmanco] ♺ @TMorais: Software Livre Educacional, porque a educação é bem melhor quando é livre: http://bit.ly/1MZQP6Jun 08 17:13
-Twitfolk-BN/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] Does Microsoft Hijack the Term “Netbook”? < http://ping.fm/b346g >Jun 08 17:13
-Twitfolk-BN/#boycottnovell-[zoobab] Swedish presidency organising closed doors ACTA discussions in order to make filesharing a criminal act: http://i5.be/seJun 08 17:13
-Twitfolk-BN/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] I'm trying twitfolk.plJun 08 17:13
*Twitfolk-BN has quit (Remote closed the connection)Jun 08 17:13
schestowitzI craps out... "Couldn't open tweet_id_file: Permission denied at ./twitfolk.pl line 627."Jun 08 17:13
*iKonaK has quit ("Leaving.")Jun 08 17:18
schestowitzBack in a moment...Jun 08 17:18
*iKonaK (n=iKonaK@80.96.13.25) has joined #boycottnovellJun 08 17:18
**** BEGIN LOGGING AT Mon Jun 8 17:21:12 2009
*Now talking on #boycottnovellJun 08 17:21
*Topic for #boycottnovell is: "Exploring the reality behind exclusionary deals with Microsoft and their subtle (yet severe) implications" [publicly logged]Jun 08 17:21
*Topic for #boycottnovell set by schestowitz at Fri May 22 21:43:08 2009Jun 08 17:21
-ChanServ-You are not authorized to perform this operation.Jun 08 17:21
-ChanServ-[#boycottnovell] Welcome to the #boycottnovell channelJun 08 17:21
*ChanServ gives channel operator status to schestowitzJun 08 17:21
*ChanServ gives channel operator status to schestowitzJun 08 17:22
*Received a CTCP VERSION from freenode-connectJun 08 17:23
mib_ac4yxahttp://government.zdnet.com/?p=4906Jun 08 17:28
*BN_com (n=twitfolk@cg131a.halls.manchester.ac.uk) has joined #boycottnovellJun 08 17:31
-BN_com/#boycottnovell-[trmanco] ♺ @TMorais: Software Livre Educacional, porque a educação é bem melhor quando é livre: http://bit.ly/1MZQP6Jun 08 17:31
-BN_com/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] Does Microsoft Hijack the Term “Netbook”? < http://ping.fm/b346g >Jun 08 17:31
-BN_com/#boycottnovell-[zoobab] Swedish presidency organising closed doors ACTA discussions in order to make filesharing a criminal act: http://i5.be/seJun 08 17:31
-BN_com/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] I'm trying twitfolk.plJun 08 17:31
*BN_com has quit (Remote closed the connection)Jun 08 17:31
MinceRreJun 08 17:32
schestowitzmib_ac4yxa: well, they used to run Windows.. that's spyware tooJun 08 17:32
trmancohehJun 08 17:32
trmancoschestowitz,Jun 08 17:32
schestowitzThe script quits after a first go...Jun 08 17:32
trmancoI got something for youJun 08 17:32
mib_ac4yxaim sure, but it will be a requirement for all OS's,Jun 08 17:33
trmancoschestowitz, are you interested?Jun 08 17:33
*BN_com (n=twitfolk@cg131a.halls.manchester.ac.uk) has joined #boycottnovellJun 08 17:34
-BN_com/#boycottnovell-[trmanco] ♺ @TMorais: Software Livre Educacional, porque a educação é bem melhor quando é livre: http://bit.ly/1MZQP6Jun 08 17:34
-BN_com/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] Does Microsoft Hijack the Term “Netbook”? < http://ping.fm/b346g >Jun 08 17:34
-BN_com/#boycottnovell-[zoobab] Swedish presidency organising closed doors ACTA discussions in order to make filesharing a criminal act: http://i5.be/seJun 08 17:34
-BN_com/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] I'm trying twitfolk.plJun 08 17:34
*BN_com has quit (Remote closed the connection)Jun 08 17:34
schestowitzSeems like a permission problem. This time I'll get it rightJun 08 17:35
schestowitztrmanco: sureJun 08 17:35
schestowitzAhJun 08 17:35
trmancodon't mind if I query you?Jun 08 17:35
schestowitzdrwxr-xr-x 2 roy  roy   4096 2009-06-08 17:34 .Jun 08 17:35
schestowitzdrwxr-xr-x 4 roy  roy   4096 2009-06-08 17:30 ..Jun 08 17:35
schestowitz-rw-r--r-- 1 root root    11 2009-06-08 16:49 last_tweetJun 08 17:35
schestowitz-rw-r--r-- 1 roy  roy   1692 2008-11-03 18:20 timers.plJun 08 17:35
schestowitz-rw-r--r-- 1 roy  roy   1063 2009-06-08 17:17 twitfolk.confJun 08 17:35
schestowitz-rw-r--r-- 1 roy  roy   1068 2009-06-08 17:10 twitfolk.conf~Jun 08 17:35
schestowitz-rw-r--r-- 1 roy  roy   1059 2009-06-08 16:14 twitfolk.conf.sampleJun 08 17:35
schestowitz-rw-r--r-- 1 roy  roy   1046 2008-11-03 18:20 twitfolk.conf.sample~Jun 08 17:35
schestowitz-rw-r--r-- 1 roy  roy     79 2009-06-08 16:56 twitfolk.friendsJun 08 17:35
schestowitz-rw-r--r-- 1 roy  roy     75 2009-06-08 16:51 twitfolk.friends~Jun 08 17:35
schestowitz-rw-r--r-- 1 roy  roy     94 2009-06-08 16:39 twitfolk.friends.sampleJun 08 17:35
schestowitz-rw-r--r-- 1 roy  roy     76 2009-06-08 16:35 twitfolk.friends.sample~Jun 08 17:35
schestowitz-rwxr-xr-x 1 roy  roy  14757 2009-05-07 19:21 twitfolk.plJun 08 17:35
schestowitzread onlyJun 08 17:35
schestowitztrmanco: sure, go aheaDJun 08 17:35
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-BN_com/#boycottnovell-[trmanco] ♺ @TMorais: Software Livre Educacional, porque a educação é bem melhor quando é livre: http://bit.ly/1MZQP6Jun 08 17:36
-BN_com/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] Does Microsoft Hijack the Term “Netbook”? < http://ping.fm/b346g >Jun 08 17:36
-BN_com/#boycottnovell-[zoobab] Swedish presidency organising closed doors ACTA discussions in order to make filesharing a criminal act: http://i5.be/seJun 08 17:36
-BN_com/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] I'm trying twitfolk.plJun 08 17:36
*BN_com has quit (Remote closed the connection)Jun 08 17:36
fewaLOLJun 08 17:36
fewa/exec -o ls ~ :PJun 08 17:37
schestowitzhahaha.Jun 08 17:37
schestowitzI see what happened thereJun 08 17:37
schestowitzchoms a+w won't doJun 08 17:37
schestowitzI run the script as rootJun 08 17:37
schestowitzso last_tweet is root-ownedJun 08 17:37
schestowitz[root@localhost twitfolk]# chown roy last_tweetJun 08 17:38
schestowitz[root@localhost twitfolk]# exit                                                 Jun 08 17:38
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-BN_com/#boycottnovell-[trmanco] ♺ @TMorais: Software Livre Educacional, porque a educação é bem melhor quando é livre: http://bit.ly/1MZQP6Jun 08 17:38
-BN_com/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] Does Microsoft Hijack the Term “Netbook”? < http://ping.fm/b346g >Jun 08 17:38
-BN_com/#boycottnovell-[zoobab] Swedish presidency organising closed doors ACTA discussions in order to make filesharing a criminal act: http://i5.be/seJun 08 17:38
-BN_com/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] I'm trying twitfolk.plJun 08 17:38
schestowitztrmanco: interesting, thanks.Jun 08 17:40
trmancohub doesn't really like to thoughJun 08 17:40
trmancohe doesn't like what you writeJun 08 17:40
schestowitzThat's fineJun 08 17:40
schestowitzI can imagineJun 08 17:40
schestowitzHe writes it for other reasons -- writes... developsJun 08 17:40
trmancoyeahJun 08 17:41
schestowitzI wasn't expecting him to like itJun 08 17:41
schestowitzI'll just do some more postsJun 08 17:42
schestowitzBeen out most of the day. Fun stuff.Jun 08 17:42
trmancocoolJun 08 17:43
EruaranThere is an opportunity for FOSS in law firmsJun 08 17:43
-BN_com/#boycottnovell-[zoobab] Patent trolls meeting at CIPForum: http://i5.be/sfJun 08 17:43
-BN_com/#boycottnovell-[zoobab] Is it possible to implement and violate the Bilski patent with some pen and paper? What about a python implementation?Jun 08 17:43
EruaranLawPefJun 08 17:44
mib_ac4yxabilski is not a patentJun 08 17:44
EruaranLawPerfect is software that is part of the Microsoft ecosystemJun 08 17:44
EruaranIt runs on MS OfficeJun 08 17:44
mib_ac4yxawell not a software patent anywayJun 08 17:44
EruaranIts just some macros and templatesJun 08 17:44
EruaranBut these bloodsucking leeches charge thousands of dollars for itJun 08 17:45
EruaranI rather like the idea of making something betterJun 08 17:45
trmancoog greatJun 08 17:45
EruaranThat does not require proprietary softwareJun 08 17:45
trmancothunderbird rendering 58k lines of text is slowJun 08 17:45
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schestowitzmib_ac4yxa: he probably meant the Bilski patent testJun 08 17:47
schestowitzhe's away at the moment (zoobab, president of FFII)Jun 08 17:47
mib_ac4yxayes, a business method patentJun 08 17:48
*_Hicham_ has quit ("Leaving.")Jun 08 17:55
trmancohttp://www.archlinux.org/static/newsletters/newsletter-2009-june.html#stolenlogoJun 08 17:56
fewaBilski is a patentJun 08 17:56
fewaits a patent that was not acceptedJun 08 17:56
fewaand they are suing to get it acceptedJun 08 17:57
fewaIts a algorythm to hedge bets in financeJun 08 17:57
*amarsh04 (n=amarsh04@ppp121-45-46-235.lns10.adl2.internode.on.net) has joined #boycottnovellJun 08 17:57
mib_ac4yxawhy was it rejected ? was it due to obviousness, prior art, or it does not meet the requirements of a patentable concept?Jun 08 18:00
fewatrmanco, interestingJun 08 18:00
fewamib_ac4yxa, its mathJun 08 18:01
fewamib_ac4yxa, it also is not hook to any tangible thing, does not translate matter into a new form, or meet any of the other basic tests of eligibilityJun 08 18:01
mib_ac4yxaon what grounds did the court state for the rejectionJun 08 18:02
fewamib_ac4yxa, in the appeals court oral and decision it was obvious to them it was invalid from the startJun 08 18:02
fewabut they had alot of discussion about itJun 08 18:03
*schestowitz patents making an omeletteJun 08 18:03
mib_ac4yxathats right, hedging your bets on finance has been around for well as long as financeJun 08 18:03
schestowitzBut, but... did anyone own it?Jun 08 18:03
schestowitzIf not, then someone will claim ownershipJun 08 18:03
fewamib_ac4yxa, well you should read the filing to see exactly what they were trying to patent, but it does remain mathJun 08 18:03
schestowitzI've got the forms with me this morning to file a complains about the EU Commission.Jun 08 18:05
mib_ac4yxabut ifs its something as obvious of hedging your finance no matter if its an angorithm and it always is,  then its obvious, and its called "interest"  from a lenders point of viewJun 08 18:05
schestowitzMaths is an art...Jun 08 18:05
schestowitzMaths is an innovationJun 08 18:05
schestowitzMaths is a property..Jun 08 18:05
schestowitzJust spin it philosophiclaly.Jun 08 18:05
fewamib_ac4yxa, what they submitted is not the simplest textbook hedgingJun 08 18:05
schestowitzAir is more of a property than mathsJun 08 18:05
schestowitzMaybe we should also patent airJun 08 18:05
schestowitzGive this franchise to Murdoch or something..Jun 08 18:06
mib_ac4yxaYou loan money at a risk he will not pay you back, so you change interesst to hedge your lossesJun 08 18:06
fewamib_ac4yxa, read the filing before you start talking like you know all about itJun 08 18:06
schestowitzSo should you un-know methods now?Jun 08 18:06
schestowitzMere though being infringement?Jun 08 18:06
mib_ac4yxaSure it can be as fancy as it likes, its still obvious and an age old practice,Jun 08 18:06
schestowitzAs opposed to practice of building a machine/apparatus?Jun 08 18:07
fewamib_ac4yxa, yes, but you should read it before dismissing every claim outrightJun 08 18:07
mib_ac4yxawe've been building machings for quite some time too,Jun 08 18:07
schestowitzPertinent things can't be patentedJun 08 18:13
schestowitzJust complex thngs, but they are still physicalJun 08 18:13
schestowitzYou can't be a boy in a garage making chips with 10bn transistorsJun 08 18:14
mib_ac4yxathats a fair argument, it falls down because software IS patented !Jun 08 18:15
fewamib_ac4yxa, just because something is, doesnt make it rightJun 08 18:16
schestowitzYeahJun 08 18:16
schestowitzSlavery is commonJun 08 18:16
EruaranexactlyJun 08 18:16
fewamib_ac4yxa, nor legalJun 08 18:16
schestowitzThat's coo'!Jun 08 18:16
schestowitzAnd let Rosa sit in the back in the bus again.Jun 08 18:16
mib_ac4yxai didnt say it was good, its just the law,Jun 08 18:16
schestowitzSo?\Jun 08 18:17
schestowitzLaws changeJun 08 18:17
fewamib_ac4yxa, did you real the appeal's opinion to In Re Bilski?Jun 08 18:17
mib_ac4yxatrue too,Jun 08 18:17
schestowitzLaws of physics are not laws of order and disorderJun 08 18:17
fewacan you say what the machine transformation patent test means to software patents?Jun 08 18:17
schestowitzit's debatableJun 08 18:18
mib_ac4yxaI can tell you there patents of software exist in numbersJun 08 18:18
schestowitzDepends on one's convictions, tooJun 08 18:18
fewaexactly, and thats why mib_ac4yxa shouldnt be so hasty in saying "its the law"Jun 08 18:18
schestowitzGroklaw sez sw pats are now deadJun 08 18:18
mib_ac4yxaFine, but law law says differentJun 08 18:19
Eruaranthats arguable in a court of lawJun 08 18:19
mib_ac4yxasure is,Jun 08 18:19
mib_ac4yxaall laws areJun 08 18:20
fewamib_ac4yxa, the appeals court interprets the law, and they seem to disagree with you, you should take that opinion up with themJun 08 18:23
fewainstead of just bullshitting hereJun 08 18:23
kentma"The law" doesn't say what patents exist - this is really a miss-statement.Jun 08 18:23
kentma"The law" can determine which are lawful, which is not the same thing at all.Jun 08 18:23
fewayeah, mib_ac4yxa is full of shitJun 08 18:24
kentmaIn the UK, software patents remain unlawful, as they do in the EU as a whole, although it's quite true that many organisations have been trying to change that.Jun 08 18:24
kentmafewa: quite!Jun 08 18:24
_Goblinalthough for the remit of civil court "anything goes" if it can be proved on "the balance of probabilities"Jun 08 18:26
kentma_Goblin: for what it has jurisdiction over...Jun 08 18:26
_Goblintrue.  But then the remit of the civil court is pretty diverse...Jun 08 18:26
fewa_Goblin, but this is not civil courtJun 08 18:27
fewa_Goblin, its a question of wether companies can exclude others from implementing certain thingsJun 08 18:27
-BN_com/#boycottnovell-[_goblin] Having to use this XP netbook has one advantage, I've finally been able to give a more mature version of #chrome a go.Jun 08 18:28
fewadetermining how and under what cercumstances people can limit the freedoms of others, under the premise of a common good (overall)Jun 08 18:28
_Goblinyes, but the purpose of civil court is to settle dispute, this could originate in a patent style claim, or a breach of IP.Jun 08 18:28
schestowitzThe Dark Forces seem to be DDOSing us again today, but I can't be sure. It comes in burstsJun 08 18:28
fewahow do i join the twitter / identi.ca group?Jun 08 18:29
_Goblinthe civil court is far more robust than criminal since the proof is not "beyond all reasonable doubt"Jun 08 18:29
fewa_Goblin, but if there is no right to limit others freedoms, there there is no claimJun 08 18:29
schestowitzfewa: which is your account?Jun 08 18:29
*Eruaran has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer))Jun 08 18:29
schestowitzI need to ask the dev about identicaJun 08 18:29
_Goblintrue, but thats a matter for the court to decide and a risk for the persons involved.....tom tom for exampleJun 08 18:29
schestowitz<roberthl> groups of packagesJun 08 18:30
schestowitz<roberthl> like, you have the "lamp server" package which is apache+php+mysqlJun 08 18:30
schestowitz<jstoker> roberthl: It wouldn't be that different.Jun 08 18:30
schestowitz-iDFEY/#dfey- [schestowitz] I'm trying twitfolk.plJun 08 18:30
schestowitz<schestowitz> roberthl: it runs silently for some reason, having no effect really.Jun 08 18:30
schestowitz<roberthl> export IRC_DEBUG=1;./twitfolk.plJun 08 18:30
schestowitz<roberthl> then it isn't silentJun 08 18:30
schestowitz<schestowitz> When it's run should it echo anyting?Jun 08 18:30
schestowitz<roberthl> not if you don't enable IRC_DEBUGJun 08 18:30
schestowitz<clsmith> jstoker: Yeah, they seem to be pretty similar - taskelless Ubuntu Server and JeOS.Jun 08 18:30
schestowitz<clsmith> I might try out Ubuntu Server.Jun 08 18:30
schestowitz<schestowitz> [root@localhost trunk]# export IRC_DEBUG=1;./twitfolk.plJun 08 18:30
schestowitz<schestowitz> bash: ./twitfolk.pl: Permission deniedJun 08 18:30
schestowitz<clsmith> schestowitz: `ls -l twitfolk.pl`Jun 08 18:30
schestowitz<roberthl> schestowitz: chmod +x twitfolk.plJun 08 18:30
schestowitz<clsmith> roberthl: Yeah, mine was to see if it *was* +x.Jun 08 18:30
schestowitz^^ Manchester groupJun 08 18:30
fewaall abilities to intrude on the actions of others must be authorized, and considered on their merit of the collective effectJun 08 18:30
fewaschestowitz, on which service?Jun 08 18:30
schestowitzeitherJun 08 18:31
schestowitzBut the script is build for Twitter inisiallyJun 08 18:31
schestowitzSomeone seems to have extended it for identica APIJun 08 18:31
schestowitzSo I might need to borrow the script. It's really crude... not even a Web page/site for it, just cvsJun 08 18:31
*Eruaran (n=quassel@183.110.208.203.cable.dyn.gex.ncable.com.au) has joined #boycottnovellJun 08 18:31
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yuhonghttp://meta.slashdot.org/comments.pl?sid=345907&cid=21186633Jun 08 18:41
yuhonghttp://boycottnovell.com/2008/03/10/slashdot-tagging-tweak/Jun 08 18:41
yuhongCompare the two different pages I just linked to.Jun 08 18:42
*yuhong has quit ("ChatZilla 0.9.84 [Firefox 3.0.10/2009042316]")Jun 08 18:44
schestowitzWhat do you see?Jun 08 18:45
-BN_com/#boycottnovell-[zoobab] Unpaid activist within the Foundation for a Free Information Infrastructure (FFII): http://bit.ly/9X9I9Jun 08 18:48
-BN_com/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] ODF News and Microsoft’s Acts Against It < http://ping.fm/6eOGa >Jun 08 18:48
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fewahttp://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kantS-kzIWUJun 08 19:10
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*schestowitz looks at videoJun 08 19:12
schestowitzfewa: saved4l8erJun 08 19:13
fewakJun 08 19:13
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fewathey didnt stand up eoughJun 08 19:15
yuhongOn /. front page BTW is that Google Chrome has recently added FFMpeg.Jun 08 19:17
yuhongUnfortunately, they got hit by patent issues.Jun 08 19:17
fewathat claim that it involves the FSF is falseJun 08 19:17
-BN_com/#boycottnovell-[zoobab] Software Patents in Europe at the second Hacker Space Festival in Paris: http://i5.be/shJun 08 19:18
fewaslashdot also has a "article" that says bing is #2, it was only #2 for a day due to microsoft forcing it on their usersJun 08 19:19
MinceR/. has lost its credibility alreadyJun 08 19:19
yuhongWhat I really want to talk about /. is this.Jun 08 19:20
fewathe comment system is still goodJun 08 19:20
MinceRexcept for the random crap they add to itJun 08 19:20
yuhongIn case you hasn't done the comparison, compare these two links.Jun 08 19:20
yuhonghttp://boycottnovell.com/2008/03/10/slashdot-tagging-tweak/Jun 08 19:20
yuhonghttp://meta.slashdot.org/comments.pl?sid=345907&cid=21186633Jun 08 19:20
MinceRcurrently most comments show with 3 bars that look like the dragbars of the new crap comment system, but are nonfunctionalJun 08 19:21
MinceR(i'm using the old comment system)Jun 08 19:21
MinceRalso, the controls for tags are completely broken in operaJun 08 19:21
yuhongRead both pages I just linked and compare them.Jun 08 19:21
fewathe troll have become professionalJun 08 19:22
schestowitzyuhong: anything to do with Miguel?Jun 08 19:22
schestowitzSomeone just mailed some s/t about itJun 08 19:22
yuhongYep, Miguel is confused about the Chrome FFMpeg patent issues according to slashdot.Jun 08 19:24
schestowitzfewa: s/become/have guidance from a//Jun 08 19:24
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schestowitzIt's called "TE"Jun 08 19:24
fewaschestowitz, your probably rightJun 08 19:24
schestowitzThey rally the shrillsJun 08 19:24
yuhongI know.Jun 08 19:24
schestowitzI'm sure you knJun 08 19:24
schestowitzSo yuhong, which TE are you w/ ?Jun 08 19:25
fewasuch stuff can be quite spottableJun 08 19:25
yuhongI am not a TE.Jun 08 19:25
schestowitzWhich one are you in touch with?Jun 08 19:25
schestowitzVista TE?Jun 08 19:25
yuhongNothing.Jun 08 19:25
schestowitzYou love talking about Vista..Jun 08 19:25
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yuhongYes, but I don't always talk about it.Jun 08 19:26
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yuhongBut what is really interesting is to read both and compare these two pagesJun 08 19:26
yuhong>http://boycottnovell.com/2008/03/10/slashdot-tagging-tweak/Jun 08 19:26
yuhong>http://meta.slashdot.org/comments.pl?sid=345907&cid=21186633Jun 08 19:26
yuhongRead both pages and compare them.Jun 08 19:27
yuhongWhat do you think?Jun 08 19:28
schestowitzyuhong: try to reduce how much you speak praises here of opponents of FOSSJun 08 19:34
schestowitzWe already have sites like Slashdot for thatJun 08 19:35
yuhongThanks, that is a good idea;.Jun 08 19:35
yuhongThanks, that is a good idea.Jun 08 19:35
yuhongAnd thanks for actually responding, I was worried when I did not get a response for a long time.Jun 08 19:36
nicktasticMeh...speech regulation.Jun 08 19:36
yuhongI really don't think Vista or 7 is that bad, but thanks for the suggestion.Jun 08 19:37
schestowitznicktastic: depends on what the topic hereJun 08 19:38
schestowitz*isJun 08 19:38
yuhongNow, what I really want for you to answer is to read both pages, compare them, and say what do you think.Jun 08 19:38
yuhongIn case you missed the links I posted, I will post them again.Jun 08 19:38
yuhonghttp://boycottnovell.com/2008/03/10/slashdot-tagging-tweak/Jun 08 19:38
yuhonghttp://meta.slashdot.org/comments.pl?sid=345907&cid=21186633Jun 08 19:38
yuhongIt would IMO be a pretty interesting comparison.Jun 08 19:39
schestowitzI;ve read theseJun 08 19:40
yuhongWhat do you think?Jun 08 19:41
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tessierschestowitz: You can't remember my account for what?Jun 08 19:48
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yuhongAnyone willing to respond of what do you think about comparing the two pages.Jun 08 19:49
schestowitztessier:twitterJun 08 19:52
yuhongWhat does this mean.Jun 08 19:52
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-BN_com/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] Patents Roundup: OASIS Takes Stance Against Software Patents, Microsoft Loses < http://ping.fm/DIvDW >Jun 08 19:53
-BN_com/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] IBM could be seen as an aggressors here: IBM sues the Philippines < http://ping.fm/eLUia >Jun 08 19:58
-BN_com/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] There's some hope for copyleft in the EU parliament: http://ping.fm/gYK4rJun 08 19:58
yuhongI will say it again: what do you think after comparing the two I just mentioned?Jun 08 20:01
schestowitzYes, mentallyJun 08 20:01
yuhongWhat do you mean?Jun 08 20:02
schestowitzIt's truly a shame for those stuck with GM cars... a bit like being stuck with jilted Vista.. http://www.usatoday.com/money/autos/2009-06-08-GM-trucks_N.htmJun 08 20:03
-BN_com/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] Microsoft's 'new' search engine is even more Dead than Live: http://ping.fm/h5HF1Jun 08 20:03
-BN_com/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] One of the rikiest jobs, still: North Korea Finds U.S. Journalists Guilty < http://ping.fm/GzttP >Jun 08 20:03
-BN_com/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] It's truly a shame for those stuck with GM cars... a bit like being stuck with jilted Vista.. http://ping.fm/y5K1cJun 08 20:03
schestowitzyuhong: it doesn't need much discussionJun 08 20:03
yuhongIndeed, I just want you to tell me what do you think.Jun 08 20:05
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schestowitzThey both make valid points, but Slashdot was destructed [sic] by PR agentsJun 08 20:07
yuhongI know, I still read slashdot but are well aware of this.Jun 08 20:08
-BN_com/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] BenQ supports Linux http://ping.fm/Jj9r3Jun 08 20:08
schestowitzhttp://www.electronista.com/articles/09/06/05/garmin.nuvifone.close/ "An American ship date isn't mentioned, nor is whether the launch would center on the Linux-based G60 or the Windows Mobile-based M20, though the G60 has been the longest in development and is the most ready of the two. " WIndows??Jun 08 20:10
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yuhongThe 2 links concludes the same thing but look at the argument used which is where the differences are.Jun 08 20:16
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yuhongThat is why I was asking you to compare them.Jun 08 20:19
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schestowitzWhat do you think about:  20 years after Tiananmen, China containing dissent online  < http://www.networkworld.com/news/2009/052909-20-years-after-tiananmen-china.html >Jun 08 20:25
schestowitzUK must take 'moral lead' on climate aid, say MPs < http://cquestor.blogspot.com/2009/06/uk-must-take-moral-lead-on-climate-aid.html > "say" vs "do"Jun 08 20:26
yuhongI know about China's internet censorship for a while now.Jun 08 20:27
mib_ac4yxahttp://government.zdnet.com/?p=4906Jun 08 20:27
schestowitzSpanish newspaper prints pictures of naked guests at Berlusconi villa < http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2009/jun/05/silvio-berlusconi-naked-villa-el-pais >Jun 08 20:27
mib_ac4yxahow is linux going to cope with being told what to include in their code ?Jun 08 20:27
schestowitzNot sureJun 08 20:28
schestowitzThey have their blob linuxJun 08 20:28
schestowitzAnd proprietary homebred somethingJun 08 20:28
schestowitzThey impose it upon Internet cafe. No generic LinuxJun 08 20:28
schestowitz*fesJun 08 20:28
-BN_com/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] Spanish newspaper prints pictures of naked guests at Berlusconi villa < http://ping.fm/LYeic >Jun 08 20:28
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schestowitzVideo on Tiananmen http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2009/jun/03/tiananmen-square-beijing-killingsJun 08 20:32
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balzacWell, as much as I dislike Berlusconi, if Rupert Murdoch stands to gain from his losses, I'm hoping Berlusconi weathers these scandalsJun 08 20:35
balzacBerlusconi should be replaced by Italian media companies, not the terrible mogul from Australia, Rupert MurdochJun 08 20:36
schestowitzI thought he was USianJun 08 20:38
-BN_com/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] Sweden shows just how progressive it is. http://ping.fm/FQHkF (Swedish pirates capture EU seat)Jun 08 20:38
schestowitzNice Gordon shots.. http://www.theregister.co.uk/2009/06/08/lolprats/Jun 08 20:40
balzacI think it's lame to take politicians down over sex scandals in which everyone involved is a consenting adultJun 08 20:40
balzacI'd like to see Berlusconi taken down for supporting BushJun 08 20:41
balzacand not for the benefit of Rupert MurdochJun 08 20:41
balzache's the lesser evil, when compared to MurdochJun 08 20:41
balzacschestowitz: Murdoch presents himself as an American, but he's from AustraliaJun 08 20:41
balzacI wouldn't describe him as "American"Jun 08 20:42
balzache's a white australian with no classJun 08 20:42
schestowitzImposters in microblogging are still an issue. http://www.theregister.co.uk/2009/06/08/trusted_twitter/ (Twitter fights celeb imposters with Verified Account scheme)Jun 08 20:42
balzacprobably descended from rapists and murderers sent to the Australian penal colony, which perhaps accounts for his complete lack of dignity and scruplesJun 08 20:43
balzachehehJun 08 20:43
schestowitzNa...Jun 08 20:43
balzacit never gets old making fun of white australiansJun 08 20:43
schestowitzDon't use that slutJun 08 20:43
schestowitzWe have Australians hereJun 08 20:43
-BN_com/#boycottnovell-[ml2mst] Good evening ;-) any idea who @boycottnovell is?Jun 08 20:43
balzacslut?Jun 08 20:43
balzacI already got a good reaction from teasing oaihmJun 08 20:44
mib_ac4yxamany aussies, and they were deported for things like stealing a loaf of bread !Jun 08 20:44
balzacok, but it's still fun to tease themJun 08 20:44
balzac"put another shrimp on the barbie" "crocodile dundee!"Jun 08 20:44
mib_ac4yxathe simpons did it the best :)Jun 08 20:44
mib_ac4yxathen the "crikey" guyJun 08 20:45
balzacoh manJun 08 20:45
balzacI liked Steve IrwinJun 08 20:46
balzachey, how about David Carradine from Kung Fu?Jun 08 20:46
balzache died in a more ridiculous way than getting assassinated by a sting rayJun 08 20:46
mib_ac4yxai was goign to say he probably liked steve Irwin as wellJun 08 20:46
kentmabalzac: yes, D Carradine died recently, didn't he?Jun 08 20:47
schestowitz@boycottnovell is the account that issues these echoes of BN members.. if anyone has an account there, let me know and I'll add itJun 08 20:47
balzacdied whacking off, apparentlyJun 08 20:48
kentmahmm, must've been a really good w*nkJun 08 20:48
mib_ac4yxaA few big names in Linux from Aussie, best known (to me) is craig southeren, who i went to school with and hacked micro's together.Jun 08 20:48
-BN_com/#boycottnovell-[trmanco] @ml2mst heheh :-P It's Roy of courseJun 08 20:48
-BN_com/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] Shades of global warming research: "Research: Airliners can be more eco-friendly than trains" http://ping.fm/X4qAeJun 08 20:48
schestowitzkentma: some folks died from viagra when it came outJun 08 20:49
kentmaschestowitz: sort of "last stand"Jun 08 20:49
schestowitzThe poor people died with their trousers downJun 08 20:49
kentmawell, at least they were having a good time :-)Jun 08 20:49
schestowitzChina wants parental control of all PCs < http://www.theregister.co.uk/2009/06/08/china_bundles_censor/ >Jun 08 20:50
kentmayou can have parental control of all PCs *only* if you have government control of all PCs - it's essentially teh same t hing.Jun 08 20:51
mib_ac4yxaand they want it native in the OSJun 08 20:51
schestowitzThe parent is STALInJun 08 20:51
schestowitzThink of an acronymJun 08 20:52
mib_ac4yxabasically, china wants an enforced, government sancioned botnetJun 08 20:52
schestowitzSTandard Architecture Leverages Internet Network (STALIN)Jun 08 20:53
schestowitzGot a troublemaking citizen?Jun 08 20:53
schestowitzGive him Windows with STALIN installedJun 08 20:53
kentmaSystem for Total Access and Limited Interactive Networking?Jun 08 20:53
-BN_com/#boycottnovell-[ml2mst] @trmanco are you sure it is Roy? Because he already has a twitter account.Jun 08 20:53
mib_ac4yxaNot only windows either,Jun 08 20:54
mib_ac4yxaALL OS'sJun 08 20:54
schestowitzAssuming you down d/l something elseJun 08 20:54
schestowitzSTALIN can block all Linux download sitesJun 08 20:55
schestowitzSTALIN love you. So it watches you with care.Jun 08 20:55
kentmaYou need to have locked-down boxes for that kind of thing.Jun 08 20:55
mib_ac4yxathats right, it will basically be illegal in china to have a non spy-ware PC.Jun 08 20:55
schestowitzThe kiddie cartoons will probably be used to dissipate oppositionJun 08 20:55
mib_ac4yxaLocked down boxes, and locked down countryJun 08 20:57
mib_ac4yxathat may spell the end of FOSS in China !Jun 08 20:58
-BN_com/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] @ml2mst: yes, it's me. See what it's about in IRC.Jun 08 20:58
schestowitzWhich I/O controller is the fairest of them all? < http://lwn.net/Articles/332839/ > Linux runs ahead so fast.Jun 08 21:01
schestowitzmib_ac4yxa: no, they might use itJun 08 21:01
schestowitzMS won't let them control WindowsJun 08 21:01
schestowitzBut they can control FOSS... and they don't care much about the GPL, eitherJun 08 21:02
schestowitzGates is close to their leadership and SteveB almost made an ambassadorJun 08 21:02
mib_ac4yxayes, they allready have their "own" version of Linux, and their recent super secure OS, (suposidly BSD 5.2)Jun 08 21:02
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-BN_com/#boycottnovell-[ml2mst] @schestowitz and @trmanco: Thank you, just wanted to check out ;-)Jun 08 21:03
mib_ac4yxaIn Aussia, our prime minister, speaks cantonese, and is on (too close) terms with them.Jun 08 21:03
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mib_ac4yxaGovent here just approved a huge Iron ore mine sale to china, but the local industray squashed itJun 08 21:04
-BN_com/#boycottnovell-[trmanco] @ml2mst you're welcomeJun 08 21:08
mib_ac4yxaBN getting DDOS now ??Jun 08 21:09
trmancohehJun 08 21:09
trmancotweets appearing on irc, neatJun 08 21:10
mib_ac4yxahttp://boycottnovell.com/comes-vs-microsoft/addenda/3000/Jun 08 21:10
MinceRhm, i'm seeing attempts to run native code on androidJun 08 21:12
MinceRapparently there's even a doom portJun 08 21:13
mib_ac4yxaVMS DCS has a CRASH command !Jun 08 21:13
schestowitzhttp://www.freesoftwaremagazine.com/columns/free_software_magazine_caught_3fn_shutdown_crossfireJun 08 21:16
schestowitz"I have to be honest: I am torn. Free Software Magazine had a /three day downtime/, which for a web site is nothing short of a disaster. This also had a huge cost for us on many levels: are our advertisers going to trust us now? Is the traffic going to be restored?"Jun 08 21:16
schestowitzmib_ac4yxa: why? Did you get a bad server response?Jun 08 21:17
mib_ac4yxapermissionj denied server errorJun 08 21:17
schestowitzWhere?Jun 08 21:17
schestowitzOh cr*Jun 08 21:17
schestowitzHow did that happen..Jun 08 21:17
mib_ac4yxaYou don't have permission to access /comes-