IRC: #boycottnovell @ FreeNode: June 10th, 2009

DaemonFCthe thing that still pisses me off the most after no less than 16 yearsJun 10 00:00
DaemonFCis FILE EXTENSIONSJun 10 00:00
fewa<EDavidBurg> fewa: linsux isn't "serious business," as they say... it's just a place for people who are annoyed by the same thing to hang out and be douchebags with each other.Jun 10 00:00
fewa<EDavidBurg> it's like 4chan, but not as badJun 10 00:00
MinceRfile extensions are an illusion.Jun 10 00:00
DaemonFCoh my fucking god, if I have to set one more after something else swipes itJun 10 00:00
DaemonFCarggggh!Jun 10 00:00
EDavidBurgfewa: yes...?Jun 10 00:00
MinceRsome files just have names that happen to end with a dot and some more characters. ;)Jun 10 00:00
fewai think you allready answered your own questionJun 10 00:00
DaemonFCat least GNOME doesn't let applications come along and steal your file associationsJun 10 00:01
EDavidBurgfewa: I asked if he was writing an article on them, not what the site was likeJun 10 00:01
MinceRin gnu/linux it's generally not customary for apps to steal file associations.Jun 10 00:02
DaemonFChmmm, they finally have a native KDE network appletJun 10 00:02
DaemonFCfinallyJun 10 00:02
fewagnu/linux doesnt have file extention, generallyJun 10 00:02
MinceR:)Jun 10 00:02
fewaits MIME types, and it is vastly superior, lets say "magic"Jun 10 00:03
DaemonFCI may check out KDE againJun 10 00:04
DaemonFCit's been almost there for over a year nowJun 10 00:04
DaemonFC:PJun 10 00:04
DaemonFCI'm not a huge fan of FirefoxJun 10 00:04
DaemonFCKonqueror was actually mostly usableJun 10 00:04
DaemonFCfast, standards compliant, doesn't bloat to 500 megs after an hour of browsingJun 10 00:05
DaemonFCstays crunchy even in milkJun 10 00:05
DaemonFCjust the occasional odd site glitchJun 10 00:05
DaemonFChow is Amarok with MTP?Jun 10 00:06
fewaDaemonFC, Konquorer developed KHTML, which was forked to become webkitJun 10 00:06
DaemonFCMTP support is must haveJun 10 00:06
DaemonFCcriticalJun 10 00:06
DaemonFCI know that Rhythmbox can handle MTP playersJun 10 00:07
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MinceRgnJun 10 00:21
_GoblingnJun 10 00:23
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_Hicham_Hi All!Jun 10 00:26
_Hicham_howdy Mr DaemonFC?Jun 10 00:26
*DaemonFC highlights _Hicham_ just for the hell of itJun 10 00:26
_Hicham_what r u doing?Jun 10 00:27
_Hicham_still encoding?Jun 10 00:27
DaemonFCdon't remind meJun 10 00:27
_Hicham_why?Jun 10 00:28
_Hicham_u failed to have a good quality?Jun 10 00:28
schestowitzEDavidBurg: no, I don't feed themJun 10 00:28
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grubbyschestowitz: nom nom nom?Jun 10 00:28
*DaemonFC feeds _Hicham_ to WMDRMJun 10 00:29
DaemonFCnom nom nomJun 10 00:29
_Hicham_not drm'ed media either?Jun 10 00:30
_Hicham_*noJun 10 00:30
DaemonFCwhy would I DRM my own files?Jun 10 00:30
DaemonFC:PJun 10 00:30
EDavidBurgschestowitz: looks like they're writing about you,1184.0.htmlJun 10 00:31
DaemonFCoh wait, that's the DEFAULT setting in Windows Media PlayerJun 10 00:31
DaemonFC:)Jun 10 00:31
EDavidBurgor at least #bnJun 10 00:31
_Hicham_u should drm ur own filesJun 10 00:32
_Hicham_in case someone wants to rip them off ur computerJun 10 00:32
DaemonFCyeahJun 10 00:32
_Hicham_that is where drm comesJun 10 00:32
DaemonFCthen they'll be "secure"Jun 10 00:32
_Hicham_yesJun 10 00:32
DaemonFC*GRIN*Jun 10 00:32
_Hicham_exactlyJun 10 00:32
DaemonFCWho wouldn't want to opt-in to being held hostage by license files that Windows Media Player 11 can't back up anymore?Jun 10 00:34
_Hicham_everyoneJun 10 00:35
_Hicham_license files are vitalJun 10 00:35
_GoblinLol....Linsux...what exactly is he going to sue for?Jun 10 00:35
_GoblinThereJun 10 00:35
_GoblinTheres no case...It looks like Trojan is getting a little angry.Jun 10 00:36
DaemonFCthere you goJun 10 00:36
DaemonFCthat's why Linux is failJun 10 00:36
DaemonFCit can't DRM files I encodeJun 10 00:36
DaemonFC:PJun 10 00:36
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DaemonFChow will my music be secure without license files?Jun 10 00:37
DaemonFC;)Jun 10 00:37
_Hicham_ok, I think we should work on thatJun 10 00:37
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_Hicham_encoding DaemonFC in progressJun 10 00:41
_Hicham_DaemonFC have been encoded with success to DaemonFC.wmaJun 10 00:45
_Hicham_wmplayer.exe DaemonFC.wmaJun 10 00:46
fewaDaemonFC, windows 7 prevent users from setting their own codec filtersJun 10 00:46
_Hicham_please enter the license file pathJun 10 00:46
DaemonFCI noticedJun 10 00:46
fewapreventing competition in the media realmJun 10 00:47
fewathere very thing that the EU anti-competition lawsuit was primarily aboutJun 10 00:47
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_Hicham_DaemonFC doesn't need codecs other than wmaJun 10 00:51
fewa:PJun 10 00:52
_Hicham_he is still encodingJun 10 00:53
_Hicham_encoding encoding encodingJun 10 00:53
tessierschestowitz: Your directory indexes are working nowJun 10 00:54
_Hicham_if he is not encoding, then he is trollingJun 10 00:54
ThistleWeb_Hicham_, lolJun 10 01:00
_Hicham_DaemonFC : did u sing any song yet?Jun 10 01:00
schestowitztessier: thanks!Jun 10 01:01
schestowitzBikini 2 - Michel Griffin < >Jun 10 01:01
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yuhongArs Technica is my favorite news site and I am reading it right now.Jun 10 01:08
yuhongI also read Tech Report, AnandTech, Tom's Hardware for hardware reviews.Jun 10 01:09
fewayuhong, groklaw.netJun 10 01:09
yuhongis what?Jun 10 01:10
yuhongI am also seriously thinking of freeing disk space to try out dual-boot with Ubuntu.Jun 10 01:12
yuhongLooks like Apple agrees with Boycott Novell on Windows 7.Jun 10 01:13
yuhong 10 01:13
EDavidBurgApple agrees with whoever is saying something bad about their competitionJun 10 01:14
EDavidBurgAs long as they don't make a fool out of themselves doing itJun 10 01:14
yuhongNot that I would go as far as either site.Jun 10 01:14
yuhongBut still interesting.Jun 10 01:15
yuhongThis was at WWDC 2009.Jun 10 01:19
yuhongAt this conference they also announce Snow Leopard will be released in September 2009.Jun 10 01:20
Balrogfor $29Jun 10 01:20
yuhongYep, for Leopard users.Jun 10 01:21
Balrogprobably for tiger users tooJun 10 01:21
Balroga very small percentage of people who will be able to use snow leopard are running tigerJun 10 01:22
Balrog(it's intel-only)Jun 10 01:22
yuhongTiger users will have to buy the Mac Box Set, which is more expensive but also have iLife '09, iWork '09.Jun 10 01:23
Balroghmm .. ok. How much is that now?Jun 10 01:23
yuhongIt is more expensive at $169.Jun 10 01:23
Balrogand is that confirmed btw?Jun 10 01:23
yuhongYep, Apple announced it at WWDC 2009.Jun 10 01:23
BalrogI'll have to watch the keynoteJun 10 01:23
yuhongBut that of course is a small precentage of users, since yes, snow leopard is Intel only.Jun 10 01:24
BalrogyeahJun 10 01:24
Balrog(also apple isn't doing aggressive 'anti piracy' like M$)Jun 10 01:24
EDavidBurgso there isn't a version that's just snow leopard for Tiger users?Jun 10 01:24
yuhongNo, but that is only a small percentage of users.Jun 10 01:25
EDavidBurgHm.Jun 10 01:25
Balrogand apple doesn't use activation :)Jun 10 01:25
yuhongTrue, they focus on hardware lock-in, not piracy.Jun 10 01:25
EDavidBurgI had a problem when I got a new hard drive for my macbook. It came with tiger disk, and my leopard disk was upgrade only - meaning it wouldn't install to a hard drive without a version of OS X on it alreadyJun 10 01:25
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BalrogEDavidBurg: are there any such leopard disks??Jun 10 01:26
EDavidBurgso I had to install 10.4 and then boot the leopard dvd and restore from time machine backupJun 10 01:26
BalrogAll I heard was that the leopard discs were system specificJun 10 01:26
Balrogwhat does it say on your disc?Jun 10 01:26
EDavidBurgif the 10.6 disk would only work with leopard on it, if I got a new hard disk or something didn't work, I'd have to do that, and THEN install snow leopardJun 10 01:26
EDavidBurgas least snow leopard will install fasterJun 10 01:27
yuhongWell, Leopard was sold in retail, so there is a generic disc.Jun 10 01:27
EDavidBurgyuhong: but I'd have to pay $129 for thatJun 10 01:27
Balrogit's a Universal disc tooJun 10 01:27
yuhongWindows Vista have the same problem.Jun 10 01:27
fewaguess what everybody....Linux is freeJun 10 01:27
Balrogbut the disc that comes with computers is machine specificJun 10 01:27
yuhongTrue.Jun 10 01:27
fewaand its not machine-specificJun 10 01:27
yuhongTrue also.Jun 10 01:28
Balrogwell, the discs that vendors include may be machine specificJun 10 01:28
Balrogthat is not illegalJun 10 01:28
EDavidBurgBalrog: I'm not sure about that. the disk I have is an upgrade only disk. my brother bought a macbook from his college book store with 10.4 after 10.5 was relased and got that disk for $10 from appleJun 10 01:28
fewaBalrog, it makes senseJun 10 01:28
fewafor free softwareJun 10 01:28
yuhongYep, Apple is giving a break with Snow Leopard after charging $129 for Mac OS X upgrades.Jun 10 01:28
EDavidBurgso it only works if it sees MAc OS X already on the disk ie you're upgrading that computerJun 10 01:28
yuhongYep, Apple is giving a break with Snow Leopard after charging $129 for Mac OS X upgrades for years.Jun 10 01:28
fewabut on propritary software it is anti-competitive, and a violation of the first-sale doctrineJun 10 01:28
BalrogEDavidBurg: I'd need to know what's printed on the disc ... did you try it before deciding it's an upgrade?Jun 10 01:29
yuhongFirst sale don't stop people from adding a technical prohibition, it only applies to EULAs.Jun 10 01:29
EDavidBurgBalrog: it says "Mac OS X Leopard Upgrade DVD"Jun 10 01:30
BalrogEDavidBurg: trick: 10 01:30
Balrogdon't know if it works with newer discs, but shouldJun 10 01:31
yuhongEDavidBurg: Apple is offering similar with 10.6, if you buy a Mac now, you can get Snow Leopard for $10.Jun 10 01:31
Balrogyeah, that's standard procedureJun 10 01:31
Balrog"to cover shipping"Jun 10 01:31
fewayuhong, i said _and_, technical prohibitions are anti-competitiveJun 10 01:31
EDavidBurgBalrog: I thought of that, it didn't work for me. the time machine option was greyed out. It checks for OS X before anything else, and locks up most things if it doesn't see itJun 10 01:32
EDavidBurgit still allows disk utility and terminal i thinkJun 10 01:33
EDavidBurgbut it wouldn't let me back up from time machineJun 10 01:33
Balroghrrm.Jun 10 01:33
yuhongWhat technical prohibition you are describing as anti-competive?Jun 10 01:33
yuhongSorry, missed that part.Jun 10 01:34
BalrogEDavidBurg: maybe you need to make sure it doesn't see any time machine volume. Hard to say without a copy to inspect :/Jun 10 01:35
Balrogusually it looks for the OS when it's checking the disk to install onJun 10 01:35
fewawhen software is tied to a computer it restricts the ability for that software to compete with existing, identical softwareJun 10 01:35
yuhongOn 7 laptop gifting.Jun 10 01:35
yuhong"Having received a $2000 gift from Microsoft, expect him to say sympathetic things about Windows in the future."Jun 10 01:35
yuhongIn the *future*?Jun 10 01:35
EDavidBurgyeah. I got it installed eventually, though, so no big deal. just took a while longer and was annoying.Jun 10 01:35
BalrogAIX is tied to IBM servers ...Jun 10 01:35
EDavidBurgI don't think I'll get a new disk before I get a new computerJun 10 01:36
BalrogI see.Jun 10 01:36
ThistleWebI wonder if bribed bloggers who take the money, then dis Windows would be sued by MicrosoftJun 10 01:36
EDavidBurgjust got this 500GB drive a month or two agoJun 10 01:36
yuhongHow long does the quid quo pro that is often talked about really last.Jun 10 01:36
BalrogEDavidBurg: system still under warranty?Jun 10 01:36
EDavidBurgBalrog: nopeJun 10 01:37
Balrogokk.Jun 10 01:37
EDavidBurgI got this in Feb 2007Jun 10 01:37
BalrogI still have to buy applecare for mine  ...Jun 10 01:37
EDavidBurgMacBook2,1Jun 10 01:37
Balrogahh one of thoseJun 10 01:38
EDavidBurg4,1 is the unibody one, right?Jun 10 01:38
EDavidBurgalso, does the MacBook just not exist anymore except for the leftover white ones they're still selling?Jun 10 01:38
Balrogno, that's early 08Jun 10 01:38
Balrogit's 5,1Jun 10 01:38
EDavidBurgrightJun 10 01:39
BalrogEDavidBurg: I think they have something in store, probably when Steve Jobs returnsJun 10 01:39
Balrogmaybe a lower cost MacBook with fewer pro featuresJun 10 01:39
Balrog$600-900 hopefullyJun 10 01:39
EDavidBurgMaybe. I'm glad they reduced the pricesJun 10 01:39
Balrogbecause you can't have a 'pro' without a regular ;)Jun 10 01:40
EDavidBurgI'll probably be looking for a new computer in a year or two, depending on cash flowJun 10 01:40
EDavidBurgthis still works fine. 2.0GHz C2D 4GB RAM (only recognizes 3 though)Jun 10 01:40
EDavidBurgsilly bitsJun 10 01:40
Balrogyeah, it's the chipset ...Jun 10 01:41
Balrogonly 4GB of physical address space ...Jun 10 01:41
Balrog(there were non-Mac laptops like that)Jun 10 01:41
yuhongYep, and this applies to all Intel desktop and laptop chipset 945 and older.Jun 10 01:42
yuhong955X and 965 was as I remember the first chipset to support more than 4GB of physical address space.Jun 10 01:42
yuhongIf you don't believe me read the Intel datasheets, they state this quite clearly.Jun 10 01:44
Balrogyes, I know.Jun 10 01:46
yuhongAdding 4 GB of RAM to a Pentium D desktop, 945 being the most common chipset for them, would hit the same restriction.Jun 10 01:48
Balrogyeah.Jun 10 01:49
Balrogthere's also the 32-bit windows restrictionJun 10 01:50
Balrogvista /reports/ the full 4gb even though much isn't utilizedJun 10 01:50
fewaLinux has not such restrictionsJun 10 01:50
fewayou can just use a EMT-enabled 32-bit kernelJun 10 01:50
Balrogyeah.Jun 10 01:50
Balrogsame with OS X btwJun 10 01:50
fewaOSX is a mess, they should have went straight to AMD and 64-bit CPUsJun 10 01:51
fewait was nuts to ship 32-bit-only cpusJun 10 01:51
Balrogexcept that AMD didn't have SSE3 for a whileJun 10 01:51
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BalrogOS X relies heavily on SSE3Jun 10 01:51
yuhongWell, by January 2006, they did have SSE3.Jun 10 01:52
yuhongs/they/AMD CPUsJun 10 01:52
fewaand OSX is stuck with these systems with 32-bit chips that they have to supportJun 10 01:52
fewa*AppleJun 10 01:53
yuhongBut yes Intel was infamous for not having 64-bit mobile processors until the Core 2 Duo came out in August 2006.Jun 10 01:53
yuhongWhile AMD had it much earlier.Jun 10 01:53
EDavidBurgwhile we're talking about apple, anyone have suggestions for this post of mine? 10 01:54
yuhongWhat is even worse, the predecessor of the iMac Core Duo was a iMac G5, which was 64-bit.Jun 10 01:54
fewaEDavidBurg, OSX is closed sourceJun 10 01:54
yuhongSo it was in some ways a downgrade, which certainly do not help 64-bit adoption.;Jun 10 01:55
EDavidBurgfewa: read the post, I address thatJun 10 01:55
fewait takes alot from open source without giving backJun 10 01:55
EDavidBurgfewa: read the post, I address thatJun 10 01:55
fewaand it doesnt have anything to do with Linux or UbuntuJun 10 01:55
EDavidBurgyes, but people talk about a lot of different stuff in the Community CafeJun 10 01:56
EDavidBurgthe off topic forum of ubuntuforums.orgJun 10 01:56
BalrogEDavidBurg: Leopard on a Dual-450 MHz G4 with a FX 5200 video card was usableJun 10 01:57
yuhongAnd on the 32-bit Windows restriction, I mentioned it before.Jun 10 01:58
EDavidBurgCoolJun 10 01:58
yuhongThough not officially supported.Jun 10 01:58
yuhongWhat is sad is that there were server editions of Windows which could address more than 4GB of physical via PAE.Jun 10 01:59
yuhongBut MS refused to bring that to client versions of Windows.Jun 10 01:59
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Balrogyeah :/Jun 10 02:00
yuhongI even complained to Larry Osterman and some other people at MS about it.Jun 10 02:00
fewayuhong, its called M$ using Intel's feature to market segment a Microsoft productJun 10 02:01
fewato the detriment of its usersJun 10 02:01
BalrogEDavidBurg: also direct people to macosforge.orgJun 10 02:01
yuhongYep, and it was appropriate back in 2000, but even though there are now 64-bit client versions of Windows that can address more than 4 GB of RAM, MS still refuses to lift this limit.Jun 10 02:02
fewaLinux engages in no such bullshitJun 10 02:02
yuhongI mean increase.Jun 10 02:02
yuhongCorrect, in Linux you can compile a PAE kernel that can address more than 4 GB of RAM on 32-bit, as well as having NX capablity.Jun 10 02:03
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EDavidBurgBalrog: i added a linkJun 10 02:04
yuhongIn fact, if the recently-released Fedora 11 detects a CPU with PAE support, it automatically installs the PAE kernel by default.Jun 10 02:04
yuhongWhat is also sad is that MS have to enable PAE in XP SP2 for NX.Jun 10 02:04
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yuhongAnd while I can understand limiting the physical address space to 4 GB for driver compatiblity reasons.Jun 10 02:06
inTheLoowhy boycott novell?Jun 10 02:06
inTheLooboycottnovell?Jun 10 02:06
EDavidBurginTheLoo: oh no you didn't. :)Jun 10 02:06
inTheLoo?Jun 10 02:07
EDavidBurgboycottnovell.comJun 10 02:07
inTheLooohJun 10 02:07
EDavidBurgthat should answer your questionJun 10 02:07
*inTheLoo looksJun 10 02:07
fewainTheLoo, Novell makes exclusionary deals with the monopoly abuser Microsoft.Jun 10 02:07
mtnd3winTheLoo how is baby formed?Jun 10 02:07
EDavidBurgIn short: Novell made a deal with MS, which can affect FOSS software through patentsJun 10 02:07
yuhongYep.Jun 10 02:07
yuhongBasically it was an patent deal that was exclusive to Novell customers.Jun 10 02:09
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yuhongWhich means that MS can make Linux effectively non-free software using patents.Jun 10 02:10
yuhongIt betrayed the spirit of the GPL.Jun 10 02:10
yuhongForcing the FSF to add clauses to GPLv3.Jun 10 02:11
fewa*It betrays the spirit of the GPL, it is a threat to all free softwareJun 10 02:11
ThistleWeblesson - don't betray spirits, they may come back to haunt youJun 10 02:11
EDavidBurginstantrimshot.comJun 10 02:12
fewaThistleWeb, dont troll people who know what they are talking about, they may not trust youJun 10 02:12
EDavidBurgfewa: how was that trolling?Jun 10 02:12
fewaperhaps it is notJun 10 02:12
yuhongSuggestion: Read section 7 of GPLv2 and section 11 and 12 of GPLv3.Jun 10 02:13
ThistleWebperhaps a recompile with the --humour module enabled would helpJun 10 02:13
schestowitzI've just posted TONS of news linksJun 10 02:13
fewa:PJun 10 02:13
BalrogEDavidBurg: IMHO, 10.3 was ok ... not great, but okJun 10 02:15
inTheLooi worked for novell in the 90sJun 10 02:15
inTheLooused to work for Lantastic before thatJun 10 02:15
inTheLootech support mostlyJun 10 02:15
inTheLooit was a good companyJun 10 02:15
inTheLoowhen it had netwareJun 10 02:16
inTheLoonetware was greatJun 10 02:16
inTheLoocompared to what was available at the timeJun 10 02:16
EDavidBurgBalrog: yeah, 10.3 was alright. nowhere near 10.4/5 thoughJun 10 02:17
ThistleWebinTheLoo: there's a difference between what Novell were and what they are now, pre and post pact-with-MicrosoftJun 10 02:17
EDavidBurgexpose is when OS X really turned into a compelling productJun 10 02:17
inTheLoomicrosoft reamed themJun 10 02:17
yuhongschestowitz: I was just discussing Mac OS X, Apple, and WWDC 2008.Jun 10 02:17
ThistleWebthey were willing partnersJun 10 02:17
yuhong 10 02:17
inTheLoonovell never got the client side of the networkJun 10 02:17
yuhong 10 02:18
inTheLoomicrosoft didJun 10 02:18
ThistleWebmaybe they felt they had to be, but they were willingJun 10 02:18
inTheLoofunny enough, the netware client for windows 95 was pretty goodJun 10 02:18
inTheLoobut by then it was too lateJun 10 02:18
yuhong(looks like Apple agreed with Boycott Novell on Vista and 7)Jun 10 02:18
inTheLoothis web irc thing is niftyJun 10 02:19
inTheLooworks fine on konquerorJun 10 02:20
EDavidBurgin general, are you guys fans or foes of google?Jun 10 02:20
inTheLoomany script-heavy sites don't work well on konqJun 10 02:20
fewawhat did novell gain by the deal?Jun 10 02:20
ThistleWebEDavidBurg: I am mixed on Google, on one hand they do SOC, and contribute a lot back to free software, they use Linux for their servers, but their data mining is the reason I don't use much of their stuff. They also have a tendency to do Windows only software too which is strangeJun 10 02:21
fewaall i see is Microsoft, and SusecrosoftJun 10 02:21
inTheLoowhy is it strange? it's the best return on investmentJun 10 02:22
EDavidBurgI never got why anyone would pay for the OS X family pack... it's the same disk as the single user with a different label. There's no restrictions on number of concurrent installs with the single computer diskJun 10 02:22
fewaGoogle is hostile to the AGPLJun 10 02:22
yuhongBTW, what caused Ron Hovsepian to be chosen instead of someone else who could have been better?Jun 10 02:24
yuhongfewa: I know.Jun 10 02:24
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EDavidBurgsomehow I read Hovsepian as horseporn...Jun 10 02:25
yuhongEDavidBurg: Licensing.Jun 10 02:25
inTheLoook soJun 10 02:25
*EDavidBurg deletes his browser historyJun 10 02:25
EDavidBurguhhhJun 10 02:25
inTheLooaccording to the websiteJun 10 02:25
inTheLoonovell signed a deal that would protect its   customers from patent lawsuitsJun 10 02:26
yuhongschestowitz: You should post links to WWDC 2009.Jun 10 02:26
inTheLoobut that doesn't extend to non-novell customersJun 10 02:26
inTheLoowhich also use linuxJun 10 02:26
yuhongschestowitz: You should post links to WWDC 2009 related news, including the two from Ars I just linked.Jun 10 02:26
inTheLoobut not suseJun 10 02:26
ThistleWebanytime I need to use Google services, I block their scripts and cookies, and run with customizegoogle addon, set to block as much as possible, and anonymiseJun 10 02:26
fewayuhong, the site is not about appleJun 10 02:26
inTheLoois that the exclusionary part?Jun 10 02:26
schestowitzyuhong: I am not interested in Apple, but thanks.Jun 10 02:27
schestowitzgnJun 10 02:27
yuhongfewa and schestowitz: But WWDC 2009 does contain some interesting snippets.Jun 10 02:27
inTheLoowhat patents does this deal cover, exactly?Jun 10 02:27
yuhongFor example, looks like Apple agrees with BN on Vista and 7.Jun 10 02:28
inTheLooor is it just a security blanket?Jun 10 02:28
fewainTheLoo, 10 02:28
yuhongschestowitz: Also don't confuse Mac OS X's restrictions with iPhone's restrictions, they are different platforms.Jun 10 02:29
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fewayuhong, whats the difference?Jun 10 02:29
yuhongiPhone is more restrictive, with apps having to be approved by Apple.Jun 10 02:30
yuhongWhile Mac OS X is more open and has no such restrictions.Jun 10 02:30
fewaOSX apps have to be coded to the cocoa, any other propritary APIsJun 10 02:30
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yuhongI am not expecting BN to cover all of WWDC 2009, that is way off topic.Jun 10 02:31
yuhongBut it does contain some interesting parts.Jun 10 02:31
yuhongMy school districts uses almost exclusively Macs, BTW.Jun 10 02:32
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ThistleWebjust flicking through the links, wow Linux is the first with USB3.0 driversJun 10 03:04
ThistleWebnice :)) all we need now are devicesJun 10 03:04
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splosion Wave is anti-web, says Microsoft. Well, of course it is: they have a competing productJun 10 04:23
mib_lg69qgBest quote from TFA:Jun 10 04:31
mib_lg69qg"Ozzie said the open web relies on open data formats and protocols, not opaque packages and payloads being tunneled across the web - yes, that was Microsoft saying that."Jun 10 04:31
mib_lg69qgHaving the company responsible for IE 6,7, and 8 talk about anything being "anti-web" is too funny.Jun 10 04:33
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splosion UK police waterboarding suspects. SMoothJun 10 04:49
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splosion 10 06:04
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splosion 10 06:59
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schestowitzTwitter is kaput. (Pay Per Post Model Moves To Twitter)Jun 10 07:52
twitteroh wellJun 10 07:53
twitterHere's an idiot article that quotes Slashdot troll drinkypoo 10 07:53
schestowitznice nickname eh?Jun 10 07:54
schestowitzSure adds prestige to SlashdotJun 10 07:54
schestowitz (Judges Divided On Right Of Schools To Punish Students For Mocking Principals Online)Jun 10 07:54
twitterEventually, they seem to get to someone who knows what they are talking about.  ->  "The U.S. military uses GNU/Linux widely," blogger  Robert Pogson told LinuxInsider. "Apparently, they care nothing for cost and reliability by choosing that other OS for desktop systems that are not mission-critical. One must assume this is a top-down decision because the computer geeks in the Army certainly know and love GNU/Linux."Jun 10 07:55
twitterbut most of it is M$ praise.Jun 10 07:56
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twitterToo bad they did not quote West Point, 10 07:59
twitterIt's kind of like the Wintel press to take 2 weeks to report things then get it wrong.Jun 10 08:00
twitterWhy do they lie to us? 10 08:03
twitterWho is this idiot Eric Lai?Jun 10 08:03
twitterHas he not see the single digit business numbers for Vista in business?  It's practically zero.Jun 10 08:04
twitterPolls have consistently put Vista interest at 10% or less.  Now that the word is out about, I imagine it's much less.  Vista only has a place in the world because M$ made it impossible to buy anything but at most places.  Those places are almost all out of business now because of it.Jun 10 08:06
splosionroy: did you see the SLP link I posted above? more here's+latest+tech+startup:+inishtech_33870.htmlJun 10 08:06
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ThistleWebcool, if Twitter are moving to that model will be so much more appealing FOSS wins againJun 10 08:09
twitterThe Comcast DNS hijack story is very spooky.  It would seem to apply, even if you host your own DNS.  If they can hijack your request to other DNS, they can hijack your local DNS requests to higher level servers.Jun 10 08:12
twitterVerdict - criminal interference with communications.Jun 10 08:12
splosionThistleWeb: there was an interesting thing about switching to full rms-style freedom for social networking sites on UF. I think somebody made a site about it too. 10 08:12
ThistleWebsplosion: where they exist and are stable enough and feature rich enough, they should use themJun 10 08:13 has been great for a while now as far as I knowJun 10 08:13
splosionYeahJun 10 08:14
ThistleWebI think it's missing a few twitter specific features but not manyJun 10 08:14
ThistleWeband you can run your own instance and blend with othersJun 10 08:14
ThistleWebwhere you cant with TwitterJun 10 08:14
splosionyeah. the best way to convince the rest of the world that rms-style freedom is the way to go is to use those apps. Things like and show that there is a desire for thisJun 10 08:16
ThistleWebit's really only FOSS people who care about FOSS apps, but those switching help swell the number of users which makes them more appealing to the masses, which can only help them growJun 10 08:17
ThistleWebadvertisers / investors care about potential eyeballsJun 10 08:17
ThistleWeboften that means user baseJun 10 08:18
splosionyeah. Still, the non-FOSS world will eventually realise that super high-rpofile killer apps like Wave wouldn't be very powerful or as feature-rich if they weren't libreJun 10 08:19
splosionor even very usefulJun 10 08:19
splosionit's not lock-in anymore, it's going to be lock-outJun 10 08:19
ThistleWebideally yeah, but most users wont care how it's developed, only that it does cool stuff, lets them do cool stuff and dont cost them anythingJun 10 08:19
ThistleWebsome will look into it more, but many wont look beyond using itJun 10 08:20
schestowitztwitter: Lai is a SofterJun 10 08:20
schestowitzHe covers MSJun 10 08:21
schestowitz"About Redmod" is his blog taglineJun 10 08:21
ThistleWebwhere it will likely make a difference in peoples opinions is companies like Microsoft trying in vain to offer competing closed source apps which won't be anywhere near as flexible or stableJun 10 08:21
ThistleWebpeople will see FOSS as a better quality product, even if they have no idea whyJun 10 08:21
twitterAbout Redmond, hmmmmJun 10 08:21
splosionaye. more users means more devs, more support and more appeal in the long runJun 10 08:22
schestowitzSomeone should write to the MSBBC and explain to them gently what the word "PIRATE" really means. #propagandaJun 10 08:22
ThistleWebI'm surprised Microsoft haven't tried a "Everybody Loves Redmond" take on the sitcomJun 10 08:22
ThistleWebmaybe they did and went with Seinfled insteadJun 10 08:22
schestowitzThistleWeb: Idenctica too started having spamJun 10 08:23
twitterI got to meet a person who works for a large Linux user in Redmond.  He works at a Lowe's Hardware store.  "You are a Linux user in Redmond," I told him.  That made him smile.Jun 10 08:23
splosiondownloading = theft. It's odd how many people believe this. Especially as no one has ever gone to prison for downloading music or videos. Logic fail.Jun 10 08:23
twitterEven here in Washington, it seems, people are sick of M$.Jun 10 08:24
schestowitzLegal  alien.. Englishman in New YorkJun 10 08:24
ThistleWebanything where users talk directly to other users will be a target of spammers thoughJun 10 08:24
ThistleWebthe impression I get of Microsoft is that they have the DNA of the hardball 90's businessmen who will do anything to win, and times have moved on to the point where that used to be valued, is now looked on as disrespectful and harshJun 10 08:25
ThistleWebthey have not changed, while those around them haveJun 10 08:25
splosiongood news here and relevant to discussion. demand for training in OSS increases,39044229,62054843,00.htm?scid=rss_z_nwJun 10 08:26
ThistleWebit's the Reagan / Thatcher style excessJun 10 08:26
ThistleWebanyone who's had their own way for too long expects to keep it that way, they dpn't know anything else because they've never experienced itJun 10 08:27
splosionand now for some bad news about Mono 10 08:27
ThistleWebthey don't recognise that times have changedJun 10 08:27
splosiondinosaursJun 10 08:27
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ThistleWebmany other companies with years of excess failed to recognise times have changed, continued their paths and ended up begging for bail outs from governments, in part to pay huge golden parachute payments for their failuresJun 10 08:31
splosionthat irks me quite a bit. That so much tax money goes into subsiding private ventures. Capitalism fail. You see it all over the place. It infects everywhere, not just the tech industryJun 10 08:33
splosions/subsiding/subsidisingJun 10 08:34
ThistleWebsplosion: in some cases it's nessesary, but in principle I agree, capitalism is all about the marketJun 10 08:36
splosionoh didn't see this one. Groklaw tackles the ODF-dissing campaign 10 08:36
ThistleWebin most cases they should be allowed a natural death of their mismanagementJun 10 08:36
splosionyeah. Public money should be spent on public interests. not on bailing out companies who outsource their work to Buttfuckistan.Jun 10 08:37
twitterPCWorld.  Doing the dirty work of the Slog.  Creating divisions between M$ competitors who are natural allies 10 08:38
twitterNothing could be easier than making fun of ATT.Jun 10 08:38
twitterbut Apple is not much better and M$ outdoes ATT for evilness by an order of magnitude.Jun 10 08:39
EDavidBurgtwitter: I think there's an ampersand in there somewhereJun 10 08:40
twitterNYT laughs at M$ and Windows 7 sales 10 08:41
ThistleWebthe big problem I have on bailouts is the lack of conditions on them for rewarding failed board membersJun 10 08:41
ThistleWebtake public cash, split a huge chunk between the board, throw the rest at the company to help it stay afloatJun 10 08:42
twitterWindows 7, now available for layaway!Jun 10 08:42
ThistleWebfor me, there should be some conditions like the board all work at the wage rate their lowest paid employee gets paid, until the govt loan is paid backJun 10 08:43
ThistleWebwith any attempts at skimming round it treated as fraud with a criminal trialJun 10 08:44
ThistleWeball pension / bonus agreements previously agreed are null and have to be renegotiated after the loan is fully repaidJun 10 08:45
ThistleWebthe fact there's nothing even resembling this, shows that govt & corporations are too much alikeJun 10 08:45
ThistleWebpoliticians don't piss off potential large doners to their ellection causeJun 10 08:46
ThistleWebthe street scum have plenty of votes to change the results, but have little money to contribute to the campaign fundsJun 10 08:47
twitterHey, look shestowitz, you predicted some idiot would use the words "nail in the linux desktop coffin."  Here it is. 10 08:47
twitterPreston Gralla must be a BN reader.Jun 10 08:48
twitterHell, he might even be here now.Jun 10 08:48
splosion sheeeeshJun 10 08:48
EDavidBurgI'm Preston GrallaJun 10 08:48
twitter-> " If there's been any doubt that Microsoft plans to use Windows 7 to put the nail in the coffin of desktop Linux, there's this news: Microsoft says it will no longer cripple the Windows 7 Starter Edition"  He then goes on to list 9 ways M$ will cripple Vista 7.Jun 10 08:50
twitterA big one is DVD play back.Jun 10 08:50
splosion"For netbooks, these are fairly minor features --- who needs multi-monitor support on a netbook, or expects to watch recorded TV on one? " -- eh? watching recorded TV on a netbook as a minor feature? that's an awesome feature.Jun 10 08:50
twitterand somehow it will lack WMP, which will keep it from all media, "Windows Media Center for watching recorded TV or other media."Jun 10 08:51
twitterI donno, seems like a new low even by Windows standards.Jun 10 08:52
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balzaclart.Jun 10 08:52
twitterOh yeah, Vista 7 starter edition won't be able to stream media, " [no] Remote Media Streaming for streaming your music, videos, and recorded TV from your home computer."Jun 10 08:53
splosionwatching recorded TV on the go would be one of the reasons I'd consider buying a netbook.Jun 10 08:53
twitterBetter upgrade to GNU/Linux if you want media and reasonable graphics.Jun 10 08:53
balzacI think Microsoft's arrogance is finally about to catch up with themJun 10 08:53
balzacit'll be more obvious than ever that they're arbitrarily imposing limitationsJun 10 08:54
twitterdebt and a 33% decline in revenue says they have already taken a hit.Jun 10 08:54
balzacIt becomes more and more obviously irrational to have drugs and software prices be completely unrelated to production costsJun 10 08:54
twittertheir answer seems to be more of the same losing strategyJun 10 08:54
twitteryes, the more tyranny is imposed the more obvious it is.Jun 10 08:55
twitterIt's kind of a death spiral.Jun 10 08:55
balzacyep, the more they leverage their monopoly, twist arms in foreign countries, and become ever-more belligerant, the more it seems they're accelerating off a cliff.Jun 10 08:56
splosionmaking people pay for a boolean to set $functionality_x to "on" is a dumb idea to begin with. Still Microsoft patented it so they must be serious about making some money this wayJun 10 08:56
balzacyepJun 10 08:56
twitterThe more odious M$ is, the more people avoid them and the more odious M$ must become.Jun 10 08:56
ThistleWebnow people have had a glimpse of a non-Windows world with Linux netbooks, even if they didnt have a clue what Linux was, they just know that after playing with it for a little while it just worksJun 10 08:56
balzacadditional versions of MS Office with their silly, arbitrary interface changes - eventually people will just laughJun 10 08:57
splosionYou se this everywhere, though. Newspapers are finding that paywalls just don't work. Microsoft will find this one out for themselvesJun 10 08:57
balzacsplosion: indeedJun 10 08:57
ThistleWebwhile people are kept blinkered it's easy to get people to fork over cash if they don't know any choice existsJun 10 08:58
twitterI'm amazed they are doing the whole Vista Capable pre sale again.  It shows how desperate they are for money and buzz.Jun 10 08:58
twitterThey also seek to freeze the market.Jun 10 08:58
balzacMicrosoft really ought to be sacking Ballmer and changing their tune on the GPLJun 10 08:59
twitterbut like the Vista fiasco before, a frozen market is hard to thaw.Jun 10 08:59
balzacor else they're going off a cliffJun 10 08:59
twitterThey are off the cliff.Jun 10 08:59
balzacif they don't sincerely embrace modern software licensing and business models, they're toastJun 10 08:59
ThistleWebI hope they punish users for refusing Vista by making Windows 7 more expensive than it would have beenJun 10 08:59
twitterCorry Doctorow tried to tell them DRM was a bad idea about five years ago.Jun 10 08:59
ThistleWebprice will be a factor in people saying noJun 10 09:00
splosionI am impressed with Microsoft's Windows 7 hype campaign. free tasters, slashed prices, "it's not as bad as Vista!". They've really excelled. You see hype for Windows 7 everywhere. Even the places you'd least expect it (Linux forums etc)Jun 10 09:00
balzacI hope it's a spectacular collapse like Wall StreetJun 10 09:00
twitterPeter Gutmann tried to tell them DRM was harmful two years ago.Jun 10 09:00
balzacA spectacular accounting scandal like Madoff Securities LLCJun 10 09:00
twitterIt is disgusting that they continue to fight and waste resources when it's obvious they are defeated.  Their employees will suffer needlessly.Jun 10 09:01
balzacwell, some folks insist on learning the hard wayJun 10 09:02
balzacBut I want to clean up on their lossesJun 10 09:02
twitterThey are guilty and deserve to suffer, but it will be difficult to compensate their victims after they implode.Jun 10 09:02
twitterWhen the money's gone, the money's gone.Jun 10 09:02
balzacMaybe there'll be a glut of IT people who depended on proprietary software and I'll be able to hire them at off-shore out-sourcing wages... heh hehJun 10 09:03
ThistleWeball large institutions think in long terms, they know there are ups and downs, they will assume this is just another down, with an up on the wayJun 10 09:03
twitterPerhaps they waste it intentionally, like an evil spouse in a divorce.  Blow the money so no one else can get it.Jun 10 09:03
balzacI'll be like $15/hr, you can be glad to be getting paid for on-the-job education on free and open source software...Jun 10 09:04
twitterThere's already a glut of IT people.Jun 10 09:04
twitterand tech people in general.Jun 10 09:04
ThistleWebthey've had their own way for far too long, they will see contracts being delayed until cash flow is better, but still resigned, not abandoned for alternativesJun 10 09:04
balzacwell, there's not enough of a glut for me to start hiring them yet.Jun 10 09:04
twitter$30k/year is 3x what people and China and India work for.Jun 10 09:04
balzacI'd like to hire a harvard MBA and make him do cold-calls on an excel spreadsheet full of leads.Jun 10 09:05
twitterHire people who know useful things first.Jun 10 09:05
twitterLet the MBAs wait tables.Jun 10 09:05
balzacSend him out to get coffee for the developers. heheh.Jun 10 09:05
twitterScrub toiletsJun 10 09:06
balzacalright, now maybe you're getting carried away.Jun 10 09:06
splosionsubmitted to digg 10 09:06
balzacunless you're talking about Bush who should scrub toilets in prisonJun 10 09:06
twitterI've scrubbed toilets for a living.Jun 10 09:06
balzacok, then I won't judgeJun 10 09:06
ThistleWebbblJun 10 09:06
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twitterPeople do what they have to do.Jun 10 09:07
balzacI've done construction, rennovation, construction waste hauling, and all kinds of nasty dirty jobs in the construction business.Jun 10 09:07
balzaci'm a high-school drop out and it would do my ego good to have a Harvard MBA going on coffee runs for my developersJun 10 09:08
balzacso I'll just set that dream on the periphery of my mind as my business growsJun 10 09:08
balzacwhen the time comes, I'll make it happenJun 10 09:09
balzacwho knows, maybe they'll have something intelligent to contribute to business strategyJun 10 09:09
twitterIt's amazing what people will do when you treat them with respect.Jun 10 09:10
twitterStick to getting things done.  Revenge is a waste of time.Jun 10 09:10
twitterJustice, on the other hand, is a worthwhile goal.Jun 10 09:10
balzacWell, sometimes revenge is only justice with a bit of pinacheJun 10 09:11
balzacjustice with styleJun 10 09:11
twitterSome poor recent MBA graduate is just as screwed as anyone right now.  They have mega bucks worth of debt for all their efforts.  It is better to target someone's guilty of real crime.Jun 10 09:12
balzacI wouldn't send a Harvard MBA out with a horrible kind of gleeJun 10 09:12
balzacto get the coffeeJun 10 09:12
balzacI'd just make a joke of it once, not a daily embarrassmentJun 10 09:12
balzacI don't get my kicks from grinding people down unless they're oppressive to me in some wayJun 10 09:13
balzacif I have an advantage, I don't get amusement from reminding anyone of itJun 10 09:14
splosionhow would you make it a joke? "Take your calculator with you, there's a good boy."Jun 10 09:14
balzacwell, first you have to earn someone's respect before you can share that kind of irreverent humorJun 10 09:15
balzacYou can't prank someone like that and expect them not to freak out if they don't know you sense of humor well enough not to take it personally.Jun 10 09:15
splosionplayful camaraderie. it's a nice thing to have around at work.Jun 10 09:15
balzacBasically, you have to be the kind of person they wouldn't be afraid of insulting in return, in a humorous way.Jun 10 09:17
twitterLOL, Praise for Windows 7 - "It wasn't bad at all -- kind of Mac-like, in fact."  Faint indeed. 10 09:17
twitterand an exaggerationJun 10 09:18
twitterThat has got to be one of the ugliest looking apps I've seen in a while.Jun 10 09:18
twitterHe was editing his pictures with his Media Player?  Somehow it suggested he set up Internet TV and watch a particular US Sitcom?Jun 10 09:20
balzacI feel sorry for that guyJun 10 09:20
splosion 10 09:20
splosionfrom TFA, "It seems that Dell’s gameplan is to retire the Mini 12 and replace it with the rumoured Mini 11, codenamed Argos – a low-cost ‘thin and light’ Windows 7 notebook with an 11.6 inch screen"Jun 10 09:20
splosionDell are losing their marblesJun 10 09:21
balzacIt's like he's eating a prune and mustard sandwich and thinks it's goodJun 10 09:21
balzacmini 11.6" ? That's huge.Jun 10 09:21
balzacI'll be looking to move some of the Longsoon netbooksJun 10 09:22
splosionlink?Jun 10 09:22
balzacIf Dell doesn't keep making a 9" model, I'll ignore themJun 10 09:22
splosionI don't think you're alone in that decisionJun 10 09:22
balzacsplosion: lemoteJun 10 09:23
splosionand anyway, it's daft to remove a product before the replacement is even available. what the hell are they thinking?Jun 10 09:23
balzacI've seen them for sale in eurosJun 10 09:23
twitter12" is about the right size for a laptop monitor.Jun 10 09:24
balzacalmost competitive, but it looks like their manufacturing runs aren't big enough to take advantage of the economy of scale yetJun 10 09:24
balzacbut they will start moving themJun 10 09:24
balzac12 is too bigJun 10 09:24
balzacI don't want one that sizeJun 10 09:24
balzacActually, I don't like carrying a mobile computer around anymoreJun 10 09:24
twitterWhy, oh why, do people use Outlook still?Jun 10 09:25
splosionI'd like a laptop--any laptop, that doesn't have a widescreen monitor. Widescreen monitors are terrible for coding.Jun 10 09:25
balzacIt makes me feel like a dork, and lots of girls ignore me when I carry a computer bag.Jun 10 09:25
balzacI'll just get the t-mobile g1Jun 10 09:25
twitterIt was not so great in 2001 and it has gotten even worse now.Jun 10 09:25
balzacput the debian image on it for gnu utilitiesJun 10 09:25
splosiontwitter: 10 09:26
twitterOutlooks threading is the pits, and it's nearly impossible to organize mail with it.Jun 10 09:26
balzacsome girls take an interest, but not many. they're dorks too.Jun 10 09:26
twitterBlah. 10 09:26
balzacIt's better to have computers at work and at home, but not around the city.Jun 10 09:26
balzacMicrosoft LookoutJun 10 09:27
twitterGoogle's web interface is better than Outlook - it threads!Jun 10 09:27
twitterit has templates!Jun 10 09:27
splosionMore about Microsoft's SLP scheme,1000000121,39662046,00.htmJun 10 09:27
twitterit is not a trojan, unless you use IEJun 10 09:27
balzacI better get back to workJun 10 09:28
twitterlaterJun 10 09:28
balzacttylJun 10 09:28
splosiontahJun 10 09:28
twitterah ha, the reason, " , they can let those people continue to use Outlook but allow IT managers to move completely away from Exchange servers"Jun 10 09:29
twitterLeave the fanboys with their toys.Jun 10 09:29
twitterfix one problem at a time.Jun 10 09:29
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] Is Microsoft Pulling a Xen on Vyatta? < >Jun 10 09:30
twitter"OK, John, you can keep your Outlook.  Just be sure to make backups of this less than 2GB collection of your mail, contacts and everything file.  It blows up and loses everything often."Jun 10 09:31
splosion 10 09:32
twittertwitter sleeps nowJun 10 09:35
*EDavidBurg doesn't sleep; he waitsJun 10 09:35
*EDavidBurg also steals bad chuck norris jokesJun 10 09:35
schestowitzsplosion: thanks for the URLsJun 10 09:37
EDavidBurgdo FOSS language learning apps exist a la Rosetta Stone?Jun 10 09:37
schestowitzI'll do an article about the Weir thingJun 10 09:38
splosionEDavidBurg: I'd like to know too. Never come across any beyond a few children's gamesJun 10 09:38
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splosionEDavidBurg: there's a couple of flashcard-type apps tooJun 10 09:40
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schestowitzMicrosoft Windows Discriminates Against ODF, FSF Denounces Microsoft 10 09:47
splosion 10 09:47
splosionMicrosoft partners in Education. Hrmm 10 09:50
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] Microsoft Windows Discriminates Against ODF, FSF Denounces Microsoft 10 09:50
splosion"As such, we view this collaboration between the Ministry of Education and Microsoft Thailand as well aligned with these goals and the national education act, in terms of providing more educational opportunities and access, as well as encouraging greater learning through ICT."Jun 10 09:51
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[_goblin] - Still on holiday! Off on the boat to Wareham.Jun 10 09:55
schestowitzNot Thailand again... *sigh*Jun 10 09:58
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[_goblin] - Arrived at Wareham! My adventures on a XP netbook continue...Jun 10 10:00
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-BNc/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] Microsoft Accused of Anti-ODF Whisper Campaign 10 10:15
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splosiontime for workJun 10 10:19
schestowitzThanksJun 10 10:19
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-BNc/#boycottnovell-[_goblin] Less than a week with XP and already been a victim of a trojan. God knows what it was doing...Jun 10 10:35
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MinceRr4wrJun 10 10:41
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Omar87Hey there!Jun 10 10:49
Omar87Guys you gotta check this out: 10 10:49
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trmanco 10 11:18
ushimitsudokiMy thoughts on the latest Banshee push: 10 11:19
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-BNc/#boycottnovell-[trmanco] MediaWiki 1.15.0 released: 10 11:25
oiaohmBanshee has the does not scale problem.  There is a perl program out there on large  music arcives that out does Banshee on speed and memory usage ushimitsudoki.Jun 10 11:25
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[trmanco] Linux 2.6.30 has been released: || Changelog since 2.6.29-> 10 11:30
trmanco"obviously some of the forum moderators are novell employees (or peopleJun 10 11:31
trmancowho drink they're koolaid) who are censoring respectable people likeJun 10 11:31
trmanconeighborlee when they speak of the dangers of MONO"Jun 10 11:31
trmancoschestowitz, do you know who Mark Fink is?Jun 10 11:31
trmanco"perhaps neighborlee or roy schestowitz should be an ubuntu forumJun 10 11:33
trmancomoderator to bring fairness to the forums?"Jun 10 11:33
oiaohmtrmanco: fairness is a person type.   Person should be aware of there own bias's and not filter forum chat when there own biases are in play.Jun 10 11:52
oiaohmReason why forums normally have more than 1 moderator.Jun 10 11:52
oiaohmNo single person on earth is without bias over something.Jun 10 11:52
oiaohmFailing not to act when your bias is in play is a sign of a person not suitable to be a forum moderator.Jun 10 11:53
oiaohmThat is universal for all good forum moderators.Jun 10 11:54
oiaohmIt is normal for people to try to name other people to redirect problem away from themselves.   Ubuntu forums lack rules on moderators over conflit of interest so these problems happen.Jun 10 11:55
trmancothat's why I stopped using forumsJun 10 11:57
oiaohmNo matter who is put there without rules over conflit of interest it will keep on happening.Jun 10 11:58
oiaohmIts not just mono either with problems in the Ubuntu forums.Jun 10 11:58
balzacthat's trueJun 10 11:59
balzacbut there's an ebb and flow to these kinds of problemsJun 10 12:01
balzacI'd like to see mono blockedJun 10 12:01
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balzacimagine two warships, the Microsoft and the GNU, locked in a struggle. A boarding platform was dropped by the Microsoft across the gap in order to board the GNU. The Microsoft's hull is breached and they're trying to take over the only sea-worthy boat left.Jun 10 12:04
balzacThe crew of the GNU is trying to disengage the two ships because the battle is won. The crew of the Microsoft is trying to stay engaged.Jun 10 12:05
oiaohmNot exactly.Jun 10 12:05
oiaohmMS is trying to steal the GNU ships crew to row there live boat.Jun 10 12:05
oiaohmlive/lifeJun 10 12:06
balzacsureJun 10 12:07
balzacNovell and Mono are the boarding platform from MicrosoftJun 10 12:07
oiaohmwin32 applications are mostly locked to x86 platform.Jun 10 12:07
balzacmono is the hookJun 10 12:07
oiaohmMS need to break free of that with arm and other processors in the market.Jun 10 12:08
oiaohmThey need programmers to do it.Jun 10 12:08
balzacIf the crew of the GNU can block mono, Novell is left hanging in the water.Jun 10 12:08
oiaohmSo are trying to take open source ones to do it.Jun 10 12:08
oiaohmBasically MS is slowly been pulled and broken up on a reef.Jun 10 12:09
balzacThe Microsoft has spies on board the GNUJun 10 12:09
balzacyep, their ship is listing, taking on waterJun 10 12:09
oiaohmWithout a fast enough boat to get out the reef they are going to be destroyed by it.Jun 10 12:09
balzacand the captain is promising treasure for loyal deck hands and fightersJun 10 12:10
oiaohmAnd to members on the sea worthy ship not effected by the reef to save them.Jun 10 12:10
balzacThe GNU doesn't have a lot of loot, but their ship is stout and the crew is healthyJun 10 12:10
oiaohmAnd with good navigation so its avoiding boat sinking reefs.Jun 10 12:11
balzacyep, that's where the captain of "The Microsoft" failedJun 10 12:11
oiaohmSome people in the windows navigation were drunk at wheel.Jun 10 12:11
balzacthey lost their sextant and never learned celestial navigationJun 10 12:12
oiaohmThat is a more truthful state of the word.Jun 10 12:12
oiaohmIe MS is desperate and getting more desperate by the day.Jun 10 12:12
oiaohmThey cannot say there ship is breaking up because if they do and they leave like rats they will sink and loss there treasure.Jun 10 12:13
balzacBut some of the crew-members on the GNU are fond of mutinyJun 10 12:14
balzacand others are naive about the threat of taking on crew members from the MicrosoftJun 10 12:14
balzacthey'll cut the ropes and the sails if they're allowed onto the GNUJun 10 12:14
balzacBut it's really more like two battling armadasJun 10 12:15
balzacyeah, they can't admit they're sinkingJun 10 12:16
oiaohmbut its not just 2 sided.Jun 10 12:16
oiaohmYou have hardware companies ie the sea causing MS problems.Jun 10 12:16
balzacbut the captain and first mate are already sneaking away with the treasure under the cover of darknessJun 10 12:17
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oiaohmSo causing MS to cause the other side trouble.Jun 10 12:17
oiaohmThink about it long time ago MS would have never allowed mono to be on Linux.Jun 10 12:17
oiaohmThat it is MS is in trouble.Jun 10 12:18
balzacThey'd have preferred to sink the GNU with cannon fire from afar, rather than trying to board their ship.Jun 10 12:18
balzacBy winning the SCO case, for exampleJun 10 12:18
oiaohmBack then the sea was on there side too.Jun 10 12:19
oiaohmThese days hardware companies are being nicer to GNU and Opensource.Jun 10 12:19
balzacThe hardware companies could be land-based culturesJun 10 12:20
balzacgranting or witholding supplies needed by the ships crewsJun 10 12:21
oiaohmBasically what ever story you make up to describe MS problems.  It has to have 3 sides.   MS, Open source and hardware.Jun 10 12:21
oiaohmMissing hardware misses a key factor.Jun 10 12:21
balzacHow about users?Jun 10 12:21
balzacsupposing the software ships are traders, users are the ones who'll receive the goods in transitJun 10 12:22
oiaohmReally would it matter how good the OS was if it had no hardware to run on balzacJun 10 12:22
balzacof courseJun 10 12:22
oiaohmUsers need hardware.Jun 10 12:22
balzacmost people live on landJun 10 12:22
oiaohmLinux weakness in the video side has been lack of hardware support.Jun 10 12:23
_Mutex_So if MS tries to support the GPL and open source they are evil, and if they dont support GPL/FOSS they are evil, I can see how MS has alot of choice here LOLJun 10 12:23
balzacMicrosoft has been dominating the straightsJun 10 12:23
balzac_Mutex_: wrongJun 10 12:23
oiaohmMS does not want to touch GPLv3Jun 10 12:23
balzacMS has never once tried supporting computer users' freedomJun 10 12:24
balzacMicrosoft would be more like IBM if they were more pragmatic about licenses.Jun 10 12:24
_Mutex_Neither Does Linus Torvalds, your point is ?Jun 10 12:24
splosionMicrosoft would rather the GPL magically vanish of the face of the earthJun 10 12:24
ushimitsudoki_Mutex_: under no conditions has MS ever pretended to support GPL. In fact, they are very clearly opposed to GPL and spend a lot of effort separating GPL and Open Source in people's mindsJun 10 12:24
oiaohmMS will allow stuff to be released in upto GPL v2Jun 10 12:25
oiaohmGPLv3 that shuts down there patent guns they don't want to touch.Jun 10 12:25
balzacBill Gates has a lot of ego invested in his ideological position which is opposed to the idea that freedom of users matters.Jun 10 12:25
_Mutex_Allthough they create GPL'd software, just like any other FOSS company, so why is MS different,, oh waitJun 10 12:25
oiaohmMS wants to keep patent guns on Open source.Jun 10 12:26
balzac_Mutex_: GPLv2 which doesn't have the new protection against software patents.Jun 10 12:26
balzacMicrosoft lost the battle on copyright, so now they assert patent claimsJun 10 12:26
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oiaohmMS created the theory that patents could destroy open source.Jun 10 12:26
balzacit's desperate and badJun 10 12:26
_Mutex_They cant release code under the GPL and have it patented encoumbered, its in the license guys !!Jun 10 12:26
ushimitsudoki_Mutex_: could you point to a GPL project MS has created or supported?Jun 10 12:26
ushimitsudoki_Mutex_: not "Open Source". I mean GPL-licensed.Jun 10 12:26
balzacushimitsudoki: indirectly, Microsoft has funded the development of GPL-licensed projects through Novell, but the only reason is to use these as Trojan Horses to deliver patent claims against GNU/Linux operating systems.Jun 10 12:27
balzacThey're trying to pollute the GPL-licensed code-base with patented code.Jun 10 12:27
oiaohmOnly gplv2 balzacJun 10 12:28
balzacNovell is the typhoid maryJun 10 12:28
_Mutex_GPL is the FOSS license right ???  im fairly sure it is,Jun 10 12:28
balzacyepJun 10 12:28
ushimitsudokibalzac: directly. "indirectly" is too flexible. MS is very anti-GPL. They at least pretended to tolerate Open SourceJun 10 12:28
balzaconly GPLv2Jun 10 12:28
_Mutex_ 10 12:28
ushimitsudoki_Mutex_: No. GPL is one of many FLOSS licensesJun 10 12:28
_Mutex_Well the Linux Kernel is GPLv2 sureJun 10 12:28
_Mutex_But it is ONE right !!Jun 10 12:28
ushimitsudoki_Mutex_: I mean projects that Microsoft is directly involved in - as in has contributed code toJun 10 12:28
balzacushimitsudoki: it's true, but they're desperate, so they've been funding Novell while Novell churns out GPL-licensed code. It's a gamble.Jun 10 12:28
oiaohmParticular licences nukes patents _Mutex_Jun 10 12:28
_Mutex_ 10 12:29
_Mutex_again,Jun 10 12:29
oiaohmGPLv2 patent solid state has not been tested.Jun 10 12:29
ushimitsudokibalzac: MS "through" Novell doesn't count, I think. I mean MS *directly* contributing code to a GPL-licensed projectJun 10 12:29
_Mutex_does that mean its not a GPL / FOSS license then ?Jun 10 12:29
ushimitsudokiThat's what I thought _Mutex_ was talking aboutJun 10 12:29
balzacMono is like a dead cow carcass which has been flung aboard our ship from MicrosoftJun 10 12:29
balzacfull of rot and diseaseJun 10 12:30
balzacushimitsudoki: your point standsJun 10 12:30
balzacthey do not directly contribute to GPL-licensed projectsJun 10 12:30
oiaohm_Mutex_: GPL is a Foss licence.  GPL 2.0 is not a protecting from patent attacks like GPL 3.0 is.Jun 10 12:30
_Mutex_Well if the GPL allows for that then that is a problem with the GPL not MS or anyone elseJun 10 12:30
splosionMicrosoft sponsored the development of the CleverAge plugin for ODF support in Office. It's even hosted on Sourceforge. It has a very permissive BSD Licence. The CleverAge plugin is actully pretty good. Wonder why they haven't used it for MS Office SP2 instead of the piece of shit they made insteadJun 10 12:30
balzaconly to projects with an "academic" open source style licenseJun 10 12:30
oiaohmLinux kernel is different OIN project has huge patent list to be used to protect it.Jun 10 12:30
ushimitsudokisplosion: that doesn't count. I am making a point that MS is very specifically anti-GPLJun 10 12:30
balzacMS is explicitly anti-copyleftJun 10 12:31
ushimitsudokisplosion: MS is fine with BSD. They even used to have BSD tcp.ip stack in Windows.Jun 10 12:31
oiaohmSo even that its GPL 2.0 attacking linux kernel can basically cripple a OS company.Jun 10 12:31
oiaohmDue to the patents from IBM and others sitting in OIN.Jun 10 12:31
ushimitsudokisplosion: they have no problem using BSD-licensed code.Jun 10 12:31
oiaohmYou don't have a patent list on mono to protect self from attack.Jun 10 12:31
splosionushimitsudoki: Oh don't worry I know. I'm just pointing out that Microsoft could have used that code for Office. They chose not to.Jun 10 12:31
ushimitsudokisplosion: oh right, that's correct :)Jun 10 12:32
_Mutex_Read the GPL, you are not allowed to have patent encombered code in GPL, ask TOMTOM i fyou forgotJun 10 12:32
ushimitsudoki_Mutex_: patent explicit stuff in in GPL v3Jun 10 12:32
balzac_Mutex_: in GPLv3 you mean?Jun 10 12:32
ushimitsudoki_Mutex_: not so much in v2Jun 10 12:32
ushimitsudoki_Mutex_: that was kinda one of the big issues with the MS/Novell dealJun 10 12:32
balzac_Mutex_: TomTom settled with MS, didn't they?Jun 10 12:33
_Mutex_So by definition GPL  cant have patents, and GPL code is approved by the FSF, so if FSF issues GPL to MS who are we to argue ?Jun 10 12:33
oiaohm_Mutex_: there is not 1 GPL licenceJun 10 12:33
_Mutex_Settled by removing the offending code and payout out, and giving up further patents,Jun 10 12:33
ushimitsudoki_Mutex_: what the hell are you talking about? "FSF issues GPL to MS"? What does that even mean?Jun 10 12:33
oiaohmThere is GPL 1.0 GPL 2.0 and GPL 3.0Jun 10 12:33
ushimitsudokiThat's not even science.Jun 10 12:33
balzacthe patent indemnification deal was the kiss of reeking corruption, which Novell gladly accepted for a sack of gold bullionJun 10 12:33
_Mutex_FSF approves the GPL, they are the arbitors of the GPLJun 10 12:34
oiaohmGPL 2.0 in the case of freetype and mp3 both have patent affected code stated.Jun 10 12:34
oiaohmSo yes you can ship patent effected code without licence in GPLv2.Jun 10 12:34
ushimitsudoki_Mutex_: no one "approves" the GPL - it is a license you can apply to your copyrighted works - I think you are unclear on the GPL and licensing in general maybe?Jun 10 12:34
balzacNovell, once a lady of renown, now unwelcome in societyJun 10 12:35
ushimitsudoki_Mutex_: or maybe I don't understand too :)Jun 10 12:35
oiaohmBasically _Mutex_ your argument does not hold water that GPLv2 gives you 100 percent protection.Jun 10 12:35
balzac_Mutex_ probably knows betterJun 10 12:35
oiaohmIn tomtom case Microsoft found themself facing a bigger patent list.Jun 10 12:35
oiaohmThat could have blocked MS from shipping OS's completely.Jun 10 12:36
oiaohmIe Tomtom joined OIN then the complete ball game changed.Jun 10 12:36
_Mutex_except by all accounts TOMTOM lost out ,and gave up extra patents to MS, IF TOMTOM actually had a case, the FOSS law fed would have backed them in a fightJun 10 12:36
_Mutex_But guess what, they didnt stand behind TOMTOM and they folded.Jun 10 12:37
oiaohmIncorrect _Mutex_Jun 10 12:37
_Mutex_Tell me your "version" of history then plsJun 10 12:37
balzacTomTom probably got a combination of carrot and stick from MSJun 10 12:37
oiaohmThere were patents outside the Linux kernel that were valid against tomtom.Jun 10 12:37
ushimitsudoki_Mutex_: on the patent issue: "GPLv3 also provides for explicit patent protection of the users from the program's contributors and redistributors.  With GPLv2, users rely on an implicit patent license to make sure that the company which provided them a copy won't sue them, or the people they redistribute copies to, for patent infringement." 10 12:37
balzacthey just got intimidated, they didn't think they'd fare well if they foughtJun 10 12:37
oiaohmMS applied 8 patents against tomtom _Mutex_Jun 10 12:38
oiaohmOnly 2 applied to the Linux kernel _Mutex_Jun 10 12:38
_Mutex_Tom tom had the ability to take it to court, but decided they did not have a strong case, and folded.Jun 10 12:38
ushimitsudoki_Mutex_: There is not explicit patent protection in GPL v2. Do you think there is?Jun 10 12:38
_Mutex_I know, and I know what TOMTOM Did too, so do youJun 10 12:38
oiaohm6 patents unbreakable.Jun 10 12:38
oiaohmOf course you would fold _Mutex_Jun 10 12:38
splosionTomTom were an easy target. Of course they caved in. What did you expect? Ask yourself why Microsoft has never gone directly up against one of the big Linux vendors. It might have something to do with those vendors actually being capable of defending themselves.Jun 10 12:38
ushimitsudoki_Mutex_: Do you think TomTom could have "folded" because they simply don't have the money to fight MS? Do you think everyone that settles out of court is "guilty"?Jun 10 12:39
oiaohmThe 2 Linux kernel ones were breakable and OIN and open soruce guys were prepaid to fight them out.Jun 10 12:39
MinceRI Know What TomTom Did Last Summer? :>Jun 10 12:39
_Mutex_why did the "big linux vendors" stand behind FOSS and TOMTOM and their product considering the threat it was under ?Jun 10 12:39
oiaohmI have the patent numbers here somewhere _Mutex_Jun 10 12:39
_Mutex_I know whyJun 10 12:39
oiaohm_Mutex_: you are badly wrong.Jun 10 12:40
_Mutex_I know there were patents, so whatJun 10 12:40
balzacMicrosoft tried with the SCO case to de-legitimize GNU/Linux. They failed, and since then, the strong GNU/Linux companies haven't flinched at all.Jun 10 12:40
_Mutex_and you know why too im sureJun 10 12:40
oiaohmThe 6 patents that were unbreakable refered to what.Jun 10 12:40
balzacThe weak ones have been consumed by Microsoft's corruption. Novell is on the way down.Jun 10 12:40
oiaohmIn car navigation tech _Mutex_Jun 10 12:40
oiaohmYes MS did some early research in that field.Jun 10 12:40
_Mutex_Well oiaohm im sure if TOMTOM and OIN felt they had even a slim chance they would have taken the decision to force software patent reformJun 10 12:41
_Mutex_but instead, what did they do again. ?Jun 10 12:41
_Mutex_Thats right,, they cavedJun 10 12:41
oiaohmOIN is still trying to get MS to go head to head with them over the 2 patents.Jun 10 12:41
oiaohmSo not caved.Jun 10 12:41
zoobab01for prior art, not for subject matterJun 10 12:41
oiaohmTo be correct both patents are under review to be canseled.Jun 10 12:41
zoobab01because of IBMJun 10 12:42
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oiaohmSo not caved _Mutex_Jun 10 12:42
oiaohmThe patents will most likely go by by.Jun 10 12:42
oiaohmWithout needing a long court case to do it.Jun 10 12:42
ushimitsudoki_Mutex_: I think characterizing the result as "caving" is a bit unfair. Perhaps you should read up on it a bit more: 10 12:42
ushimitsudoki_Mutex_: basically TomTom said "not worth it, we'll work around your patents" and got out of court (which is what most business would do, I should think)Jun 10 12:43
oiaohm_Mutex_: do you define caving as straight after tomtom backed off OIN placing prior art submissions on the two patents.Jun 10 12:43
_Mutex_well paying MS and giving them their patents they were going to use against MS and promising not to use their code for a number of years after claiming they were going to take MS to court and fight is a cave by any measureJun 10 12:44
oiaohmWho is paying who _Mutex_Jun 10 12:44
_Mutex_Yes, not worth the risk of losing, and their advice said they would probably lose, so the opportunity to get some patent reform in the courts was lost.Jun 10 12:44
_Mutex_Logic is paying me oiaohm, how about you ?Jun 10 12:45
balzacA small company doesn't have the luxury of protracted legal struggles.Jun 10 12:45
oiaohmLess than 100 000 usd deal over patents.Jun 10 12:45
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oiaohmIf you dig deep enough it was not tomtom paying MS.Jun 10 12:45
_Mutex_Gee I would have thought with the full backing of FOSS it would not be a small company.Jun 10 12:45
balzacIt's as if you're bragging about a bear who won a fight against a rodent.Jun 10 12:45
oiaohmYou have the cave the wrong way _Mutex_Jun 10 12:45
oiaohmGoing head to head with someone holding the core patents to OS design when you are selling OS's is stupid.Jun 10 12:46
oiaohmOIN holds those.Jun 10 12:46
balzacMicrosoft can't instill fear in its rivals nowadays.Jun 10 12:46
_Mutex_MS takes TOMTOM to court, TOMTOM say they will fight it and they have their own patents to fight with, time goes by, TOMTOM gets advice and FOSS abondon TOMTOM , and TOMTOM folds to MS's demands, thats what happend, spin it how you like.Jun 10 12:47
oiaohmJoining Tomtom joining OIN screwed MS game plan.Jun 10 12:47
_Mutex_Seem to instill considerable fear here :)Jun 10 12:47
balzacBeating TomTom is just a bit of theater. Nothing to brag about.Jun 10 12:47
oiaohmHere a small company we can bully.Jun 10 12:47
balzachere?Jun 10 12:47
ushimitsudoki_Mutex_: it does put some fear in me. I should think it puts fear in most tech-minded businessmenJun 10 12:47
oiaohmOpps they just joined large group with means to nuke us.Jun 10 12:47
balzacdang that webex advertisementJun 10 12:47
_Mutex_why ?Jun 10 12:48
oiaohmBetter get our selves out there with face intack.Jun 10 12:48
oiaohmMS screwed up in the tomtom case _Mutex_Jun 10 12:48
ushimitsudoki_Mutex_: I would be very cautious about incorporating anything MS held patents on, for one thingJun 10 12:48
oiaohmSo they had to back off .Jun 10 12:48
balzacGandhi said (paraphrasing) "All tyrants fall, eventually."Jun 10 12:48
oiaohmIn the past they would have just crushed the small company out of existance _Mutex_Jun 10 12:48
_Mutex_seems like they wanted to achieve a result and seems they achieved it with some success,  so how is that "backing off" ??Jun 10 12:48
oiaohmOr forced the Small company to use there OS.Jun 10 12:48
balzacI'm not afraid of Microsoft, but I am excited about the opportunities which will inevitably rise as their fortune declines.Jun 10 12:49
ushimitsudoki_Mutex_: I'm not sure what point you hope to make based on the TomTom example. Let's say I agree with your summary of the thing 100%. Ok, so what does it mean? what is your point?Jun 10 12:49
oiaohmIs tomtom using windows embeded _Mutex_Jun 10 12:49
balzacIt will be a great feastJun 10 12:49
_Mutex_Backing off would be to drop the suit, did MS drop the suit ??Jun 10 12:49
oiaohmanswer no _Mutex_ Ms failed in there objective.Jun 10 12:49
oiaohm_Mutex_: MS droped suit first.Jun 10 12:49
_Mutex_I dont care what tomtom use,Jun 10 12:49
schestowitztrmanco: I don't know FinkJun 10 12:49
schestowitzHe pissed off MarkS beforeJun 10 12:50
oiaohmTomtom sent in the papper work second _Mutex_Jun 10 12:50
balzac_Mutex_: your rhetorical questions are amusing.Jun 10 12:50
_Mutex_MS droped the suit after TOMTOM said "I give"Jun 10 12:50
schestowitzHe gives us a bad nameJun 10 12:50
ushimitsudoki_Mutex_: MS certainly did NOT "cave". I think it is over-strong to say TomTom "caved", but it is true they agreed to pay MS and drop suit, true.Jun 10 12:50
oiaohmWinner does not do that _Mutex_Jun 10 12:50
_Mutex_thanks :)Jun 10 12:50
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] Novell Develops for Windows Development Tools < >Jun 10 12:50
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] Based on my limited experience with KDE4 this morning, it's fine and good looking.Jun 10 12:50
_Mutex_I even amuse myself sometimesJun 10 12:50
ushimitsudoki_Mutex_: So, again, what is your point? Does that show anything more than MS will use patents aggressively?Jun 10 12:50
ushimitsudoki_Mutex_: Does it show anything more than messing about with MS patents is risky?Jun 10 12:50
ushimitsudoki_Mutex_: Just not sure where you are going with thisJun 10 12:51
_Mutex_and give MS some patents and promise not to use MS code, and promise to remove offending code over a period of time and pay MSJun 10 12:51
_Mutex_TOMTOM also tried to use its patents in defense,  and whats my point ?? I don thave a point :)Jun 10 12:51
oiaohmMost of those patents are over code outside gpl.Jun 10 12:51
_Mutex_Trolls never do !!!Jun 10 12:51
ushimitsudoki_Mutex_: damn you trolled me good then :)Jun 10 12:52
balzac_Mutex_: do you like proprietary software?Jun 10 12:52
ushimitsudoki+1 troll cookie to youJun 10 12:52
balzac_Mutex_: do you use windows?Jun 10 12:52
oiaohmTomtom own proprietary code did most of the patents refer to _Mutex_Jun 10 12:52
_Mutex_I like good quality software, well in fact I like what good quality software doesJun 10 12:52
oiaohmA point MS made clear early on when OIN stepped up.Jun 10 12:52
oiaohmMS does not want to enter into a fight with OIN.Jun 10 12:53
oiaohmSo you cannot say the TomTom case was a cave over just Open Source.Jun 10 12:53
_Mutex_Like Linus Torvalds I like and use what works for meJun 10 12:54
_Mutex_But clearly they did, they took TOMTOM to talk, and it was very possible for OIN to step in and defend FOSSJun 10 12:54
_Mutex_thats what I expected to happen, a good fair fightJun 10 12:54
balzac_Mutex_: so, windows works for you?Jun 10 12:54
oiaohmback down was forced by the closed source bits _Mutex_Jun 10 12:54
_Mutex_Sorry, TOMTOM's code is licenses under the GPLJun 10 12:54
oiaohmNot there navivation core software _Mutex_Jun 10 12:54
balzac_Mutex_: don't try to fool us, it's a wasted effort.Jun 10 12:55
_Mutex_its against the GPL to have closed and open source mixed in the same applicationJun 10 12:55
oiaohmNop _Mutex_Jun 10 12:55
balzacyou use windows, and without even knowing about TOMTOM, I already knew they had propriary code of their own.Jun 10 12:55
_Mutex_Read the GPLJun 10 12:55
oiaohmRead Linux licence.Jun 10 12:55
oiaohmIts not pure GPL.Jun 10 12:55
balzac_Mutex_: that's why many companies seperate them in different applications which interoperateJun 10 12:56
oiaohmDynamic linking to it does not make the code GPL.Jun 10 12:56
_Mutex_saying its not pure GPL is like saying your partly pregnantJun 10 12:56
oiaohmUsing syscalls does not make it GPL either.Jun 10 12:56
balzac_Mutex_: please stop the sillinessJun 10 12:56
oiaohmTomtom naviation devices are a Linux OS running a closed source program.Jun 10 12:56
balzacwe all know already that most big "open source" companies are "mixed source"Jun 10 12:56
oiaohmSo case was not purely over the Linux kernel _Mutex_Jun 10 12:57
_Mutex_the prop code and the FOSS code need to be "at arms leangth" from each other according to the GPL QandAJun 10 12:57
_Mutex_on the FSF web sightJun 10 12:57
_Mutex_site*Jun 10 12:57
balzacPHP has the Zend Optimizer, Red Hat has proprietary bits, and Enterprise SUSE is loaded with proprietary junkJun 10 12:57
schestowitzbblJun 10 12:58
balzacnot to mention the patent claims of various open source companiesJun 10 12:58
oiaohmHow tomtom closed source program is done obeys FSF rules.  _Mutex_Jun 10 12:58
oiaohmWhat are you _Mutex_ a idiot who cannot read FSF programming guides.Jun 10 12:58
oiaohmIf you had read them it would tell you how to make something like a tivo or tomtom legally.Jun 10 12:58
_Mutex_ahh, here we go, cant win an argument, so revert to personal attacks, nice oiaohmJun 10 12:59
balzacI can't believe _Mutex_ doesn't already know this, because he dances around, avoiding the truth so nimbly.Jun 10 12:59
oiaohmNo frustration argument that is made up crap _Mutex_Jun 10 12:59
_Mutex_what truth balzac?Jun 10 12:59
balzacit belies his awareness of these obvious things we tell him, and his disingenuinous.Jun 10 13:00
_Mutex_again, what truth please ?Jun 10 13:00
oiaohmWith the work that has been done on making FSF programming guides readable by normal humans it sad that people still keep on saying myths about licences.Jun 10 13:00
balzac_Mutex_: you're not curiousJun 10 13:00
oiaohmWhat either means you are dumb, lazy, language problem or a troll _Mutex_Jun 10 13:01
balzaca sincere person who had been corrected this many times in a row would be asking some questions to correct their viewsJun 10 13:01
balzacbut you know betterJun 10 13:01
oiaohmI run group tests on the general public of the FSF programming guides _Mutex_Jun 10 13:01
_Mutex_good for youJun 10 13:02
oiaohmCan you now see what its frustation to have these stupid baseless aguments still appearing and trying to use FSF as protection.Jun 10 13:02
oiaohmClosed source and GPL can co exist no problems.Jun 10 13:02
balzacjeez, it's been happening for so many yearsJun 10 13:02
_Mutex_we'll with your great knowledge of the GPL you seem perfectly qualified to clearly address the issues, you probably can do it and keep a civil tongue too :)Jun 10 13:03
balzac_Mutex_: do you use windows?Jun 10 13:03
oiaohmJust put this way you are the 10 person today with the same stupidity so you coped it _Mutex_Jun 10 13:03
oiaohmMy tolerance has limits.Jun 10 13:04
balzacIt's annoying when you argue with people who are willfully obtuseJun 10 13:05
balzacbut if _Mutex_ doesn't hurl expletives and threats, he's a lot different from some people who've been here recentlyJun 10 13:06
balzacI'd gladly replace some of the old debaters with more civil onesJun 10 13:06
balzacI'd rather see the proprietary side of the argument have better representation than those clowns from linsux.orgJun 10 13:07
oiaohmCommon source of my losing my cool is myths.Jun 10 13:07
balzacoiaohm: no matter how persistently obtuse and disingenuous, I'd rather debate a "David Brooks" than a "Glenn Beck" any day of the week.Jun 10 13:08
oiaohmJust don't use FSF or anyone else as a shield if you have not truly read there documentation _Mutex_Jun 10 13:08
oiaohmThen expect me or someone else not to bite you head off.Jun 10 13:08
balzacoiaohm: did you know your nick was mentioned on 10 13:08
_Mutex_yes if it gets too hot here I will sometimes open a window or twoJun 10 13:09
oiaohmIf you had said you just beleived that you could not have mixed them I would have explained it out nicely.Jun 10 13:09
balzacif _Mutex_ has a sense of humor, he's doing a lot better than many others. The jury is out, but I'm not easily offended.Jun 10 13:09
oiaohmYou did one thing that gets on my bad side quicky.Jun 10 13:10
_Mutex_thats a BIG IF balzac !!Jun 10 13:10
balzac_Mutex_: if you're generally socially aware, you'll have no problems hereJun 10 13:11
splosionthis conversation has gone stale. Somebody hurry up and drop a Godwin on it.Jun 10 13:12
ushimitsudokiHitler ran mono. There. Done.Jun 10 13:12
balzacthe guys from are total cretins.Jun 10 13:12
splosionThanksJun 10 13:12
oiaohmproblem is a trolls commonly use linking to FSF and other things to say there arguments are valid when the documentation there does not truly back the up.Jun 10 13:12
_Mutex_Hitler WAS A mono !!!Jun 10 13:13
balzacOne of my good friend's dads works for Microsoft. I'll never squabble with him about it.Jun 10 13:13
ushimitsudokioiaohm: you got trolled, dont' sweat it. I got trolled too. It happens to us all. I just shake my fist at the sky and swear VENGANCE!!!Jun 10 13:13
balzacthough I hope for his own career, he'll make a gradual transition to more mainstream technologyJun 10 13:14
oiaohmI have given the linsux admins fair warning.Jun 10 13:14
oiaohmIf they do stuff wrong and I have there site removed they cannot complain to me now.Jun 10 13:14
balzaci warned them as well.Jun 10 13:15
oiaohmNever tell people to do anything without knowing what the result will be.  One of the rules of IT.Jun 10 13:15
_Mutex_oiaohm is there a web site dedicated to dislicking linux ??  really who would have thought that possible !!  oh wait..Jun 10 13:15
balzacIf they keep talking about how I deserve to die, I'll seek a subpoena to compel discovery of real namesJun 10 13:15
balzacbecause I don't choose to remain anonymousJun 10 13:16
oiaohmThe difference here I don't care to remain anonymousJun 10 13:16
balzacI'm too busy trying to promote my business to be sneaking around like a foolJun 10 13:16
ushimitsudokilinsux is pretty bad - a little to0 close to 4chan stuff instead of say stuffJun 10 13:16
oiaohmMy real world id is not that well hidden.Jun 10 13:16
ushimitsudokiplus that one guy has michael graves as his avatarJun 10 13:16
balzac4chan is at least producing some funny contentJun 10 13:17
splosionI don't honestly think death threats are anything to worry about. The internet isn't as bad as all that. Just pray nobody ever invents teleportation. Then we'd all be fucked.Jun 10 13:17
_Mutex_so people being critical of Linux is hurting you ?Jun 10 13:17
ushimitsudokiwhat kind of faggot likes the misfits with graves on vocals? Danzig is the manJun 10 13:17
balzacthey'd love to compare themselves with 4chan, but the racial slurs in 4chan are much more casual and less angst-drivenJun 10 13:17
ushimitsudokimusic snob FTWJun 10 13:17
oiaohm_Mutex_: them giving the members directions to do thing in a way that someone implementing a botnet could do.  Could be long term harmful yes _Mutex_Jun 10 13:18
oiaohmIf they were just taking about defects in Linux and hating Linux I would not have a problem with them _Mutex_.Jun 10 13:18
oiaohmWhen they become a risk to network operations that is when I get upset with people.Jun 10 13:18
balzacsplosion: I find it unpleasant when anonymous trolls try to intimidate meJun 10 13:19
_Mutex_like how sometimes people will be "outted" in BN and their personal details being posted on the BN web site, ,, yes i can see how that would be annoying.Jun 10 13:19
oiaohmHeck if they were truly good at hating Linux I would be there looking for defects.Jun 10 13:19
oiaohmOne of there actions if the wrong person picked it up could have taken down fsdaily.   And there have been others _Mutex_Jun 10 13:19
balzac_Mutex_: I choose not to be anonymousJun 10 13:20
oiaohmUnless they get more responsiable for there actions sooner or latter they will cause major harm.Jun 10 13:20
oiaohmThen I can take there domain name off those fools.Jun 10 13:21
balzacI announced my given nameJun 10 13:21
balzacI do it regularlyJun 10 13:21
balzacI don't worry about getting my identity "outed"Jun 10 13:21
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oiaohmIt would not be the first site like linsux I have had removed from the internet.    Most have been race based.Jun 10 13:22
balzacbut, I don't seek to "out" others unless they're persistently attacking from behind anonymityJun 10 13:22
balzacoiaohm: removing their site is less of an objective than revealing the registrant and adminJun 10 13:22
oiaohmThere are people _Mutex_ like me who will protect network operations.Jun 10 13:22
balzacor the real names behind given pseudonymsJun 10 13:23
balzacBut I sure wouldn't want my given name on the crap they've writtenJun 10 13:23
_Mutex_oimohm, what does thatmean ?Jun 10 13:23
oiaohmThey can talk all the crap they like.Jun 10 13:23
splosionin my experience, most of the stuff at linsux is laughing at retarded posts from the ubuntu forums. If people are willing to do some trolling about Linux, and willing to go to ewar about it too, all it means is Linux is doing well. Nobody would bother dissing Linux if it was a nothing movement, not even microsoftJun 10 13:23
_Mutex_you unofficial internet cop ?Jun 10 13:23
balzacIf they were smart, they'd delete the most egregious threads of racist commentaryJun 10 13:23
_Mutex_but you diss windows, so is it doint well too ?Jun 10 13:24
balzacThen they could come out and be legit, join the conversation in person.Jun 10 13:24
oiaohm_Mutex_: I am not a cop.   I am a investerager of system breakins.Jun 10 13:24
splosion_Mutex_: Windows was installed on a heck of a lot of computers last time I lookedJun 10 13:24
_Mutex_Sure isJun 10 13:24
oiaohmAnd other network disruptions _Mutex_Jun 10 13:24
oiaohmThe actions that linsux are doing tells me from history of other sites sooner or latter will trigger an attack on other sites.Jun 10 13:25
oiaohmSo allowing them to be destroyed.Jun 10 13:25
balzacEven if I knew the names of the linsux trolls, I would not necessarily divulge it.Jun 10 13:25
_Mutex_like a NCSI wow oiaohmJun 10 13:26
_Mutex_and what has that got to do with you oiaohm ?Jun 10 13:26
balzacBut I would suggest to them they delete their most offensive content and desist from any more belligerant talk of violenceJun 10 13:26
oiaohmMore often than not my job is to make sure attacker does not get back in _Mutex_Jun 10 13:26
balzacBut I'd like to know their names for my own satisfaction.Jun 10 13:26
oiaohmIf I happen to trace attack source to a site I had the information over and they get destroyed.Jun 10 13:27
_Mutex_oiaohm, i did that for awile too, but my thing was to stop them before they got in the first time,,,,,, but thats just me.Jun 10 13:27
splosionRacist stuff really doesn't bother me, tbh. I've seen enough 4chan memes to desensitize myself. And anyway, expecting any site to make its content more palatable is a lost causeJun 10 13:28
oiaohmI am in a responce team so when people with skills fail _Mutex_Jun 10 13:28
oiaohmI really will be happy when windows server are gone.Jun 10 13:29
_Mutex_im sure thats really impressive oiaohm :)Jun 10 13:30
balzacsplosion: whether or not it bothers me depends on how much real racist animosity the source of it.Jun 10 13:30
balzacSome people just like to be playful in a way they can't be in real life.Jun 10 13:30
oiaohmMost cases people are failing because they don't read the documentation on security and set it up right _Mutex_Jun 10 13:30
splosionWell, here's the thing. In germany, holocaust-deniers are charged. I think that's retarded. If you believe something so fucked, you should be allowed to speak in public and then get intellectually torn apart, and laughed at, and all the rest of it. Same goes for the stuff you see online, too.Jun 10 13:31
balzacOthers like to be indulgent in their ethnic biases.Jun 10 13:31
balzacbut the worst are trying to incite violence.Jun 10 13:31
oiaohmI don't really call it impressive work.    Over 96 percent of what I do is because admins are incompetent at there jobs _Mutex_Jun 10 13:31 is not the worst I've seen.Jun 10 13:31
_Mutex_I know, as I said ive been in the IT and computer industry for about 35 years now,  very very succesfullJun 10 13:31
balzacnot by a long shot.Jun 10 13:31
ushimitsudoki_Mutex_: are you Mark Shuttleworth?Jun 10 13:32
oiaohmLot falls on MS cerfied training by the way _Mutex_Jun 10 13:32
_Mutex_no i said i was very successful :)Jun 10 13:32
ushimitsudoki_Mutex_: ha!Jun 10 13:32
_Mutex_:DJun 10 13:32
balzacit was the combination which offended me. you've got to back off when you're anonymous and you're attacking someone who chooses not to remain anonymous.Jun 10 13:32
oiaohmThat really does teach people wrong leaving many key doors open.Jun 10 13:33
_Mutex_anyone ever noticed Mark Shuttleworth's Initials are MS !!!!!!   oooohhhhhJun 10 13:33
ushimitsudokialright peeps I'm not very very sucessful, which means I have to go to bed for work tommorrowJun 10 13:33
balzacnaked aggression, arrogance, racial insensitivity, and lame software - that's for youJun 10 13:33
ushimitsudokilatersJun 10 13:33
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_Mutex_just make a heap of money and retire :)Jun 10 13:33
_Mutex_so you can spend all day on BN trolling LOLJun 10 13:34
oiaohmOr me have a bot to do most of my tracking for me.Jun 10 13:34
oiaohmSo I can be talking here and working at the same time.Jun 10 13:35
balzacso, _Mutex_ what's your favorite application?Jun 10 13:35
balzacor your top fiveJun 10 13:35
_Mutex_IsaGrafJun 10 13:35
balzaci'm not sure what my favorite app isJun 10 13:36
balzaci use emacs every day and I like it pretty wellJun 10 13:36
oiaohmMy favorite app for mucking around is blender.Jun 10 13:37
balzacblender is a lot of funJun 10 13:37
_Mutex_my five favorates , an internet browser, a word processor, a DB and CAD package, LabVIEW, a spreadsheet, and a computer and operating system that allows me to use what i want to useJun 10 13:37
balzacisagraf is an engineering app, i seeJun 10 13:37
_Mutex_yes, SCADAJun 10 13:37
_Mutex_industrial control and automationJun 10 13:38
balzaci'm partial to firefox, as a web developer.Jun 10 13:38
_Mutex_good ol google eh :)Jun 10 13:38
balzaci did use googleJun 10 13:38
oiaohmI am currently working on a bit person tracking software with blender.Jun 10 13:38
oiaohmMaking it simpler to work out who could have done what by where they wereJun 10 13:39
_Mutex_oh yea, a good C and C++ compiler, and some embedded C compilers as well, would be what I use the most, mostly embedded real time cJun 10 13:39
balzaci haven't done much compiling, but I have a feeling there'll be plenty of C programming in my futureJun 10 13:39
oiaohmI guess like me generate hate of gcc overall program optimistation is lack of it.Jun 10 13:39
_Mutex_with gcc in embedded its better to build it, and then work throught the machine source code and optimise it by handJun 10 13:40
_Mutex_for those who can remember how to code in assembly !!!Jun 10 13:40
balzacyou've got to have a good reason to optimize in such a tedious way, i supposeJun 10 13:41
balzacwhat kind of embedded application can afford it?Jun 10 13:42
_Mutex_for real time embedded you have a good reasonJun 10 13:42
oiaohmMost of the time these days I go llvm not gcc.Jun 10 13:42
balzaci've only used the gcc so farJun 10 13:42
oiaohmSo that object to object optimisations are done.Jun 10 13:42
oiaohmreducing down the ammount of asm I have to play with.Jun 10 13:42
oiaohmReally with the gcc lto project would get complete soon.Jun 10 13:43
oiaohmwith/wishJun 10 13:43
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balzaci better get back to my work...Jun 10 13:44
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balzacroy should take that bit about the battle at sea and feature itJun 10 13:45
balzacmaybe i'll put it on www.disruptech.comJun 10 13:45
_Mutex_the anology is not apt !!!!  "NOT APT" !!!!!Jun 10 13:45
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balzactime will tellJun 10 13:46
goolHi guys can you help me with a problem, i have an ubuntu hardy installation now about 3 days the system crashed it tried fixing it but no luck, it says that the X server has crashed due to an internal error. What can i do ? if i cannot fix it is there a chance to save my data?Jun 10 13:46
balzacgool: log in with a terminalJun 10 13:47
balzacyes, you can save your dataJun 10 13:47
_Mutex_and get x going too i hopeJun 10 13:47
goolbut can i fix ubuntuJun 10 13:47
balzacask for some advice in bash. also ask in #ubuntu for help re-installing your desktop-environmentJun 10 13:47
splosiongool: what was the last thing you did before your system crashed?Jun 10 13:48
balzaccan you log in and select a terminal session?Jun 10 13:48
splosionit sounds to me like your graphics set-up is fuckedJun 10 13:48
balzacif your OS is really borked, boot from a utility diskJun 10 13:48
splosiondidja install some dodgy display drivers?Jun 10 13:49
balzacI wrecked my gnome-desktop-environment in such a way it wouldn't function at allJun 10 13:49
balzacso I logged in with a terminal session and removed and re-installed itJun 10 13:49
balzactwiceJun 10 13:49
splosionbalzac: you think that's bad? I once accidentally chown'd every file on the computer to be owned by rootJun 10 13:49
balzacgnarlyJun 10 13:49
balzacI wrecked it by playing with Compiz, fyiJun 10 13:50
balzacsplosion: what did you do about it?Jun 10 13:50
_Mutex_install vista ?Jun 10 13:50
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balzacgool: seek advice in #ubuntu and #bashJun 10 13:50
splosionbacked up my data and nuked it. The permissiones were completely buggeredJun 10 13:51
balzacbetween those two channels, all questions needed to recover should be answeredJun 10 13:51
balzacyeah, it figuresJun 10 13:51
balzacand that's the kind of thing which doesn't leave a data trail for reversing the actionJun 10 13:51
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splosion_Mutex_: I'm a Vista reject. I got a new computer when Vista first came out and it BSOD'd constantly.Jun 10 13:52
splosionprobably wouldn't have any BSODs at all nowadays, but meh, too late nowJun 10 13:53
_Mutex_yes, welcome to the 21 century :),  and your exactly right, seems exceedingly stable I have not seen a BSOD for years, and i work in the industry.Jun 10 13:54
splosionToo much stuff I can't be arsed with on Windows now. One of the reasons people never switch operating systems is because they don't like change. I'm no different.Jun 10 13:56
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_Mutex_I have to admit I installed KDE 4.3 for windows yesterday, tried running Kcalk, every single time it crashes, konkurer same deal !!Jun 10 13:56
splosionThe new KDE has been nothing but trubble for me. I mostly stick with Gnome and Openbox.Jun 10 13:57
_Mutex_exactly, people just go with what they know and what works for them. nothing wrong with that at allJun 10 13:57
balzacnothing wrong with following your taste - unless you get coronary disease from too many McDonalds burgersJun 10 13:58
splosionI still like KDE 3.5, though. Debian Lenny still uses it I thinkJun 10 13:58
balzacnothing wrong with enjoying Windows, unless your development as a computer user is stifled by arbitrary obstructions to your natural curiosityJun 10 13:58
_Mutex_trouble is , that KDE for windows is a great idea to get people used to Linux Apps without having to drop windows straight away,Jun 10 13:58
_Mutex_but when you use it, the apps crash, its not a good lookJun 10 13:59
balzacif you're a consumate technologist, you deserve better than proprietary softwareJun 10 13:59
balzacfor the sake of your curiosityJun 10 13:59
_Mutex_people will ask if all foss is that bad !! that cant help fossJun 10 13:59
_Mutex_but as im saying the FOSS software im trying to use DOES NOT WORK at all, it crashes, and thats just the freaking calculator !!Jun 10 14:00
balzaci honestly feel sorry for people who are all bought into proprietary software, like I feel sorry for people who've never tasted better food than McDonaldsJun 10 14:00
splosionI don't know. All that trying it out, dipping your toes in, dual-booting or whatever. I just went right ahead and nuked the partition and put Linux in. It ain't so hard.Jun 10 14:00
_Mutex_people are not going to use free software if it constantly fails, no matter how cheap.Jun 10 14:01
balzacAll the time, I tell people 'you're too inquisitive to use a consumer-grade os'Jun 10 14:01
balzacyou deserve betterJun 10 14:01
balzac_Mutex_: you're speaking of consumers, I supposeJun 10 14:01
balzacothers prefer to face all the bugs down as part of a code sharing communityJun 10 14:01
_Mutex_im speaking of installing KDE on windows, so I can run KDE and Linux apps, to try it out to see if its good to use, and when i go to the effort to download and install itJun 10 14:02
_Mutex_I find the software is un-usable !! ie, you cannot add 2 numbers together in Kcalc !!Jun 10 14:02
balzacwhy not add your numbers with something else?Jun 10 14:02
_Mutex_Mabey because I wanted to try out FOSS to see what it was capable of !!Jun 10 14:03
splosionI use a Python shell to do calculationsJun 10 14:03
balzacalright, I'm getting back to my work for real nowJun 10 14:03
balzacsplosion: I was going to suggest something like thatJun 10 14:03
_Mutex_Ofcourse I can use MS calc and do it, or a pocket calculator, but if im trying to evaluate the FOSS Kcalc calculator program, and every time I run it , it doesJun 10 14:04
_Mutex_its an instant turn - off to foss,Jun 10 14:04
_Mutex_"why would i want to try foss, if their Kcalc cant even run" !!Jun 10 14:04
splosionSure, and that needs to be fixed.Jun 10 14:04
splosionyou're welcome to help :PJun 10 14:04
splosionThe KDE for Windows project is still a work in progress anyway, no?Jun 10 14:06
_Mutex_thats true, or i can just use something that worksJun 10 14:06
balzachow many modes does your microsoft calculator have?Jun 10 14:06
_Mutex_by definition all FOSS is stall a work in progress, thats how it worksJun 10 14:06
_Mutex_the same modes as Kcalc from what i can see.Jun 10 14:07
balzacalright, i'm out...Jun 10 14:07
Ngno software is ever finished, except possibly LaTeX ;)Jun 10 14:07
_Mutex_but the best thing about the MS "mode" is its mode of operation is OPERATING.Jun 10 14:07
splosionIt starts at version 0.1, usually. Version 1.0 is usually the one that's supposed to work. KDE always seems to get up to 1.3 before that happens, though.Jun 10 14:07
_Mutex_Kcalc's MODE was "this program is no longer working"Jun 10 14:07
_Mutex_Sure I agree, its early, but why ship something if its that bad ? its counterproductiveJun 10 14:08
_Mutex_it turns people awayJun 10 14:08
splosionNah. Just stick a warning message on the download page is all you need. "Are you seriously going to download and use this? rather you than me!" Something like thatJun 10 14:09
Aondo_Mutex_  you installed kde 4.3 you say, on windows? no wonder it is unstable :)Jun 10 14:10
_Mutex_I write industrial control software for embedded systems, I cant comprehend releasing code with bugs (engineering errors) in it AT ALL. EVERJun 10 14:10
_Mutex_yes, the KDE 4.3 FOR WINDOWS HmmJun 10 14:11
_Mutex_btw its KDE crashing,, not windowsJun 10 14:11
Aondokde 4.3 isnt even released :) just beta packagesJun 10 14:11
_Mutex_sorry its 4.2.3Jun 10 14:11
_Mutex_so's firefox just beta you're point ?Jun 10 14:12
Aondook, but still it is alot more stable on a GNU/Linux system than on windowsJun 10 14:12
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Aondofirefox?Jun 10 14:12
_Mutex_considering its totally unstable on windows I can accept that its alot more stable on Linux, has to be, cant be less stableJun 10 14:13
Aondo:)Jun 10 14:13
Aondowell you could help the progress ofc, you are free to do so.Jun 10 14:14
splosionDoesn't really matter which. Release early and release often. That's the point of open-source software. If there are bugs, they will be found, they will be fixed. You don't have to stay on the bleeding edge all the time with crashes and lock-ups. Install a stable distro such as Debian if it worries youJun 10 14:15
_Mutex_yes i am, and capable, or I can just find something that works off the bat.  its a shame as they seem like quite clean apps, (if they worked)Jun 10 14:15
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balzac_Mutex_ has some of his sense of identity vested in proprietary softwareJun 10 14:16
_Mutex_its just im from the real school of engineering, like electronics and civil and mechanical engineering, where errors are faults can be a cause of death to someone, you never release anything with known errors,  never.Jun 10 14:16
balzacsoftware is like clothesJun 10 14:16
balzac_Mutex_: I had this conversation with an engineerJun 10 14:17
_Mutex_I have some of my identity invested in quality software, proprietary or not.Jun 10 14:17
splosionDebian has four levels of stability. Stable, which will never crash at all ever, testing, which never crashed for me, Unstable, which crashes a lot, and Experimental, which crashes so much it's scary. Take your pick.Jun 10 14:17
Aondo_Mutex_ does it say that it is considered stable to use kde4 apps on windows? or is it in some sort of beta state?Jun 10 14:17
splosion_Mutex_: there's a lot of open-source software used in the air industry. Hell even NASA uses open-source softwareJun 10 14:18
Aondo_Mutex_  found it my self: "KDE on Windows is not in the final state, so applications can be unsuitable for day to day use yet."Jun 10 14:18
fewa_Mutex_, dont think alpha software will be stableJun 10 14:19
Aondofun to try it out anyways :)Jun 10 14:19
fewa_Mutex_, and to then misjudge the other similar softwares, is ludacrisJun 10 14:19
_Mutex_day to day, how about at allJun 10 14:19
_Mutex_its actually called "KDE 4.2.3 RELEASE"Jun 10 14:20
splosionOh by the way, Debian Unstable and Experiemntal aren't available for general use. You have to go out of your way to actually get hold of them. Shield the public from the scary new code.Jun 10 14:20
fewathe NSA developed SELinux, they trust it for top secret documentsJun 10 14:20
_Mutex_I dont know aobut you, but release means well release does it not ?Jun 10 14:20
fewa_Mutex_, the windows versions are not releasedJun 10 14:20
balzacthe large hadron collider, the mars rover project, and the NYSE global trading platform all use GNU/LinuxJun 10 14:21
_Mutex_im just saying whats its called, argue all you likeJun 10 14:21
fewa_Mutex_, stop trollingJun 10 14:21
fewa_Mutex_, "KDE on Windows is not in the final state, so applications can be unsuitable for day to day use yet."Jun 10 14:21
balzacI don't think I can find a better editor than emacsJun 10 14:22
Aondo_Mutex_, from what i understand, most kde programmers use linux when coding, and there is some dedicated windows people to port it over. thus making it not as stable at once, with each release.Jun 10 14:22
_Mutex_So, thats great, but so what, mabey if i have to drive a remote car on mars, i might look them up !Jun 10 14:22
balzacor a better irc client than irssi, for that matterJun 10 14:22
fewa_Mutex_, is a trollJun 10 14:22
balzaci'm awareJun 10 14:22
splosionbalzac: really? That's such a kitchen sink editor. I always get scared away by all the zillions of things it can do.Jun 10 14:22
balzactrolls are people tooJun 10 14:22
_Mutex_why because I have a counter argument that makes you unconfortable ?Jun 10 14:22
fewa_Mutex_, try it on linuxJun 10 14:23
_Mutex_why?Jun 10 14:23
balzacsplosion: it works for me. I'm a web developer, so I like the versatility.Jun 10 14:23
balzaclots of elisp files for various purposes, although the nxhtml is pretty rough around the edgesJun 10 14:23
splosion 10 14:24
Aondo_Mutex_, i guess one reason would be a stable kde, :)Jun 10 14:24
_Mutex_you would hope so.Jun 10 14:24
*amarsh04 runs Debian unstable, but is still holding back KDE at 3.5.9/3.5.10Jun 10 14:24
fewa"Jun 10 14:24
fewaFirst was Microsoft's chief software architect, Ray Ozzie, who said that Wave violates the principle that "complexity is the enemy of the web". He said that without open-source, the venture would falter due to its complicated nature.Jun 10 14:24
fewa"Jun 10 14:24
balzacsplosion: I actually like how different it is from what i'm used to because it has a lot of depthJun 10 14:25
fewaLOLOL, yes, impossible without the power of FOSSJun 10 14:25
balzacjust yesterday i tried editing an elisp mode which makes emacs have syntax completion functionality like textmateJun 10 14:25
splosionamarsh04: I'd like to give sid another whirl sometime, but "apt-get upgrade" was a command that used to scare me to death for the short time I actually used itJun 10 14:25
balzacit's pretty nifty to edit my elisp file, reload-library, and then use my newly created syntax completionJun 10 14:26
fewayou heard it from the horses mouth, FOSS is betterJun 10 14:26
amarsh04I use aptitude mainly, splosion... it lets me try alternatives, and if I get stuck in it, control-c gets me out without changes to the existing systemJun 10 14:26
splosionbalzac: I only need simple completions. I only know Python.Jun 10 14:26
splosionamarsh04: probably a good idea.Jun 10 14:27
amarsh04work colleague tonight hoped that he works with me again so that I can help him with linuxJun 10 14:27
Aondo_Mutex_, is those kde4 programs your first go with foss, except maybe firefox?Jun 10 14:27
splosionI'll be moving to Squeeze as soon as I get another hard-disk. I'll set up a small partiton for messing around with other distros.Jun 10 14:27
_Mutex_no not by a long long wayJun 10 14:27
_Mutex_ive been using Linux insice 1995Jun 10 14:27
Aondook i just had that impression :PJun 10 14:27
AondookJun 10 14:27
amarsh04new hard disks are cheap these daysJun 10 14:27
_Mutex_RH 7.2 I think aobut that time.Jun 10 14:28
fewathen just install kde on linux will ya !Jun 10 14:28
_Mutex_never going to play that stupid dual boot game again,Jun 10 14:28
amarsh04I had to partition my new hard disk into a 1024 cylinder / 8 GiB /boot partition due to having an old pc with bios limitationsJun 10 14:28
fewa_Mutex_, have you heard of virtualization?Jun 10 14:29
balzacdude, try virtualizationJun 10 14:29
balzacsheeshJun 10 14:29
_Mutex_I would really love to want to try thatJun 10 14:29
*PetoKraus has quit (Remote closed the connection)Jun 10 14:29
oiaohmDoes not really matter windows 7 does not run a lot of old games.Jun 10 14:29
amarsh04I dual boot to win95 osr2.1 which is on an 11 year old scsi disk... still have my Fidonet software on itJun 10 14:29
oiaohmTurns out wine project is commonly bugged to port to windows due to it having more compadiblity with old applications than windows.Jun 10 14:30
balzacthat's amusingJun 10 14:30
oiaohmIts a sad fact.Jun 10 14:30
oiaohmThe project gets about 4 requests a month for it.Jun 10 14:31
splosionVirtualization is great. Proof: 10 14:31
balzacmore ironic than sadJun 10 14:31
_Mutex_just as linux regressions break Linux apps on old builds as well !!  everyone has backwards compatibility issuesJun 10 14:31
oiaohmThat is a myth _Mutex_Jun 10 14:31
fewa_Mutex_, when has lib6 broken?Jun 10 14:31
_Mutex_no its not !! LOLJun 10 14:32
fewa*libc6?Jun 10 14:32
oiaohmI know because I run 6 different distributions on 1 kernel _Mutex_Jun 10 14:32
oiaohmIts a pure myth.Jun 10 14:32
fewa_Mutex_, when have the X11 protocol changed?Jun 10 14:32
_Mutex_are any of them distros old ? i bet not,Jun 10 14:32
oiaohmOnly pain in but is only been able to run 1 X11 distribution.Jun 10 14:32
balzac*nix has a more venerable and stable legacy than windowsJun 10 14:33
oiaohmOne is redhat 7.2 by the way _Mutex_  just for warpness.Jun 10 14:33
balzac_Mutex_: get serious man. Windows is the least powerful OS available.Jun 10 14:33
splosionPerhaps you mean attempting to install modern Linux apps on Linux from ten years ago? then yes of course it's going to end badly. What did you expect?Jun 10 14:33
oiaohmIts the only box set of redhat I have.Jun 10 14:33
_Mutex_powerful OS, WTF, what do you mean powerfull ?Jun 10 14:33
_Mutex_Mine was the box set too.Jun 10 14:34
fewa_Mutex_, your punyJun 10 14:34
oiaohmLinux apps from 10 years ago work.Jun 10 14:34
fewa_Mutex_, picking on spelling mistakesJun 10 14:34
amarsh04_Mutex_ Linus and Linux went with full sycall backward compatibility, but where kernel had to be available as source to enable modificationJun 10 14:34
oiaohmAs long as you install a distribution from 10 years ago on top of current day kernel.Jun 10 14:34
balzac_Mutex_: you cannot imagine the POWAH of GNU software.Jun 10 14:34
_Mutex_so your saying a build for kernel 2.4 will work on 2.6 kernel with no modification or recompiling or dependencies ?Jun 10 14:35
amarsh04libc compatibility is pretty good, there have been some changes but for generally very good reasonsJun 10 14:35
fewalib5, lib6Jun 10 14:35
fewaand you can have both installed at the same timeJun 10 14:35
oiaohmMost things don't talk straight to 2.4 or 2.6 kernel _Mutex_Jun 10 14:35
oiaohmMost talk to libc then to kernel _Mutex_Jun 10 14:35
splosion_Mutex_: why is that even a problem? The only reason you'd ever run a 2.4 kernel nowadays is if you had some seriously outdated hardware. Hardware which Windows hasn't supported for years, eitherJun 10 14:36
amarsh04If you want to know more about libc, buy the bood "the standard C library" by PJ PlaugherJun 10 14:36
amarsh04s/bood/book/Jun 10 14:36
oiaohmDebian by the way can still be order to use a 2.4 kernel.Jun 10 14:36
amarsh04s/Plaugher/Plauger/Jun 10 14:36
oiaohmMost of the upperlevels of Linux have no real linkage to the kernel _Mutex_Jun 10 14:37
oiaohmThat is why the binary incompadible is a myth.Jun 10 14:37
oiaohmIts a dependancy problem nothing more.Jun 10 14:37
fewaits windows thats a speggitti bunch of crapJun 10 14:37
_Mutex_the dependencies are different between versions of the kernel, and there is alot of complaints in teh FOSS community about regressions breaking apps.Jun 10 14:37
fewa_Mutex_, {{who?}}Jun 10 14:37
oiaohmThat is upper level _Mutex_Jun 10 14:37
amarsh04that's a good reason to use Debian, _Mutex_Jun 10 14:38
oiaohmNot kernel level.Jun 10 14:38
oiaohmLinux kernel level is very stable.Jun 10 14:38
oiaohmI know from using openvz to run many different distributions across many ages.Jun 10 14:38
oiaohmOn 1 kernel.Jun 10 14:38
_Mutex_stability is not the issue here,  its backwards compatibility and the lack of it over Linux versions.Jun 10 14:38
oiaohmI would not be able to do that if there was a binary incompadibly problem at kernel level.Jun 10 14:39
balzacwho else is beginning to pity _Mutex_ ?Jun 10 14:39
_Mutex_and WHO? LKML and Torvalds have addressed the dependency issue many timesJun 10 14:39
amarsh04I was first sold on Debian when I could upgrade glibc without a rebootJun 10 14:39
balzaccan you imagine spending all those hours working in windows?Jun 10 14:39
oiaohmLinux tradition solution to dependnacy problems is the chroot _Mutex_Jun 10 14:39
_Mutex_I never spend ANY time "working in window".Jun 10 14:39
fewa_Mutex_, yeah, stability doesnt mater to Windows, your rightJun 10 14:39
_Mutex_I use applications,Jun 10 14:39
balzacand the poor chap was in no hurry to admit using windowsJun 10 14:39
_Mutex_Im a big boy now !!Jun 10 14:39
oiaohmIssue with Linux has been it limitation that you can only run 1 X11 server at a time.Jun 10 14:40
oiaohmThat will disappear so allowing what we have been doing server side for ages to be done desktop side.Jun 10 14:40
oiaohmOk we need a old distribution applicaiton no problem install the old distribution contained.Jun 10 14:40
_Mutex_I let my operating systme do well , what OS's do,  perform as a layer between my app and my hardware, what OS ?? who the F*^* cares !!Jun 10 14:40
fewa_Mutex_, you have only changed the subject because you were wrongJun 10 14:41
oiaohmIt does it for server users _Mutex_Jun 10 14:41
fewaand you know itJun 10 14:41
amarsh04GNU/Linux became usable in a home/multi pc and os environment when samba was able to share file and print services to WinXX machinesJun 10 14:41
amarsh04that was quite a few years agoJun 10 14:41
_Mutex_wrong about what ,, what an OS does ?Jun 10 14:41
oiaohmDebian also support installing from multiable branches as well.Jun 10 14:41
balzac_Mutex_: if you're that specialized that you don't care, that's fine for you.Jun 10 14:41
_Mutex_sure isJun 10 14:41
fewa_Mutex_, so spread your shit somewhere elseJun 10 14:41
oiaohmJust it lacks good interfaces.Jun 10 14:41
oiaohmfor normal users to know how to use it.Jun 10 14:42
balzacbut i can't be troubled by proprietary software. it's not good enough for me.Jun 10 14:42
_Mutex_its not specialized its not caring, OS is not something I should care aobut, but its something my apps need to operate on top of.Jun 10 14:42
balzacfewa: i don't think it's bad to have disagreement hereJun 10 14:42
oiaohmIe apt-get -t testing <package>  on stable  is a little above the normal user to install newer version of package.Jun 10 14:42
oiaohmOr apt-get -t olderversion <package> is also above normal users.Jun 10 14:43
fewabalzac, yeah, its not a totally non-productive conversationJun 10 14:43
_Mutex_OS is but one layer of software, and it should be working but unseen,Jun 10 14:43
balzac_Mutex_ doesn't seem to have a problem with getting along, though he is ornery and wilfully obtuseJun 10 14:43
balzacnon-productive is ok in my opinionJun 10 14:43
oiaohmAs it can _Mutex_Jun 10 14:43
oiaohmIssue is not the Linux's means to do it.Jun 10 14:43
balzacit's good for BN in my opinion, to have better advocates for proprietary softwareJun 10 14:44
_Mutex_LOL, OBTUSE who are you calling obtuse, i hope you've been watching the shawshank redenption !!Jun 10 14:44
oiaohmIts Linux not give users tools to do it simple _Mutex_Jun 10 14:44
balzacnope, haven't seen itJun 10 14:44
oiaohmBasically the binary incompadiblity myth is just that a myth.Jun 10 14:44
_Mutex_More the point an advocate for quality software, regardless of its origin.Jun 10 14:44
oiaohmThere are many ways around the problems.Jun 10 14:44
amarsh04for example, new printers are not supported in old versions of Windows... on GNU/Linux, samba and cups can make these printers accessible to ancient windows machines as postscript printersJun 10 14:44
MinceR155527 < oiaohm> Linux tradition solution to dependnacy problems is the chroot _Mutex_Jun 10 14:45
_Mutex_So they have never changed the Linux ABI'sJun 10 14:45
oiaohmIt is just a interface issue _Mutex_.   Network admins who know there command line well.Jun 10 14:45
MinceRis that better than fiddling with LD_LIBRARY_PATH?Jun 10 14:45
oiaohm_Mutex_: usermode ABI never changesJun 10 14:45
oiaohmIf it does its altered back in the next versions.Jun 10 14:45
_Mutex_really, not what I heard but okJun 10 14:45
oiaohmKernel driver ABI changes all the time.Jun 10 14:45
oiaohmThey are two different ABI's.Jun 10 14:45
amarsh04anyone can run into bugs, but I never had DOS or Windows bugs fixed as a result of problem reports that I submitted. However, I've had GRUB/Linux/application bugs fixed as a result of my bug reportsJun 10 14:46
_Mutex_hmm, so if you have to interface with the Kernel you can have a problem, not that you should because apps should be userland ABI's I agreeJun 10 14:46
oiaohmDriver makers complain about Linux driver ABI  changing.Jun 10 14:46
balzacamarsh04: no kiddingJun 10 14:46
oiaohminterface inside the kernel.Jun 10 14:46
oiaohmYou can design something kernel space using all userspace ABI.Jun 10 14:47
oiaohmand that will not break with version changes.Jun 10 14:47
_Mutex_in that case the driver issue would be far better if they fixed the kernel ABI, so driver developers can have a fixed target to hit !Jun 10 14:47
oiaohmBasically if you want to interface with Linux internal API prepair to scream.Jun 10 14:47
oiaohmLinux does have full usermode driver support _Mutex_Jun 10 14:48
_Mutex_thats the issue thats causing the stir i guesJun 10 14:48
oiaohmIts a mixture.Jun 10 14:48
amarsh04syscall interface retains backward compatibilityJun 10 14:48
oiaohmBetween tricky interfaces to setup multi distributions side by side or enable backwards compadilbiy in distributions and the driver issue.Jun 10 14:48
amarsh04drivers need to be in source code so that they can adapt to new kernel interfacesJun 10 14:49
oiaohmLot of people give up on the backwards compadibly and call it impossable when it not either.Jun 10 14:49
fewa_Mutex_, the source interface is much better, a kernel ABI would enable more proprietary drivers, and more unneccicary complexityJun 10 14:49
fewa_Mutex_, since drivers run with kernel priviliages a closed source driver can do anything, and you dont know what it is doingJun 10 14:49
oiaohmClosed source kernel level abi also remove the means to fully secuirty audit the kernel.Jun 10 14:49
amarsh04as I've said several times, once scsi driver was broken for me. Within 11 hours of me posting the bug on the linux-scsi mailing list I had received a patch that fixed the problemJun 10 14:49
amarsh04s/once/one/Jun 10 14:50
oiaohmBasically there is nothing good about closed source kernel level drivers.Jun 10 14:50
_Mutex_that brings up the problem that some driver (hardware companies) dont want to provide source code for their hardware because often that shows how the device was designedJun 10 14:50
oiaohmOther than a companies means to keep secrects.Jun 10 14:50
_Mutex_not much bad about them eitherJun 10 14:50
oiaohmFunny enough there are a set of web cams for windows 400 drivers.   Open source only 1 driver.Jun 10 14:51
amarsh04broken by Design, MutexJun 10 14:51
oiaohmWhat way would you want it from a secuirty point of view for numbers of coder errors _Mutex_Jun 10 14:51
oiaohmBasically each company was not aware that the other companies were using exactly the same chipset.Jun 10 14:51
oiaohmSo had different id's so required different drivers under windows.Jun 10 14:51
_Mutex_please explain who anyone, can create a "broken by design" product ??  its beyond meJun 10 14:52
amarsh04also, think of the realtek 8139 drivers... 1 or 2 drivers for linux, I had trouble finding a driver out of several available for win95 that worked with the card I hadJun 10 14:52
oiaohmClosed source causes lack of taking between hardware makers.Jun 10 14:52
_Mutex_Lets set a spec for this software " sure the spec is BROKEN" sure rightJun 10 14:52
oiaohmSo leading to way more code created.Jun 10 14:52
oiaohmMore code equals higher risk of bugs.Jun 10 14:52
_Mutex_FOSS complaining about way more code created, how many distro's are there now ??Jun 10 14:53
amarsh04broken by design meaning "we have to know how it works to make it work with an operating system, but we won't tell anyone else how it works so that they can make it work with another operating system"Jun 10 14:53
oiaohmDistributions are more a historic mistake we cannot work out how to destory _Mutex_Jun 10 14:53
_Mutex_amarsh04 just how does that explain "broken by design" or is that a little bit of FOSS FUD ?Jun 10 14:54
amarsh04under closed source at&t unix one couldn't write a new filesystem without an at&t source code licenceJun 10 14:54
_Mutex_or is it just something that sounds good ?Jun 10 14:54
_Mutex_soJun 10 14:54
amarsh04broken by design meaning a secret interfaceJun 10 14:54
oiaohmEarly on someone had the bright idea of "survial of the fittest" would sort the distribution mess out in time.Jun 10 14:54
_Mutex_I cant drive my car without some sort of drivers license !!Jun 10 14:54
_Mutex_go figureJun 10 14:54
oiaohmKinda did not happen.Jun 10 14:55
oiaohmSo now we have LSB and other project trying to work out some way in hell of clean up the mess.Jun 10 14:55
oiaohmMost open source people call the distribution mess a bad thing.Jun 10 14:55
_Mutex_and i would agree with themJun 10 14:55
oiaohmIf you can create a cure that works lot of open source people would love you.Jun 10 14:56
oiaohmWe don't need to create another one at kernel level by allowing binary drivers.Jun 10 14:56
oiaohmIts a big enough nightmare with the distribution headache.Jun 10 14:56
oiaohmIts a normal mistake to think open source world condons code duplicaiton.   Distributions like Fedora have a strict upstreaming policy so they don't have code duplicaiton.Jun 10 14:58
oiaohmIt is one of the things people can press distributions for to reduce some of the distribution incompadiblity problems.Jun 10 14:59
amarsh04I see far more shared code at the application level (e.g. libraries) in linux than in windowsJun 10 15:00
_Mutex_hows my newest idol efforts 10 15:00
_Mutex_I still think its more about quality than sharing, but RMS does not agree with me, he thinks freedom trumps quality, ,, I dontJun 10 15:01
oiaohmIf rules of upstreaming are followed secuirty bug numbers in open source are very low.Jun 10 15:02
amarsh04If the code is shared, a sufficiently able/motivated person or group of people can improve itJun 10 15:02
oiaohmFreedom has many other important factors.Jun 10 15:02
splosionThere are plenty of distros. But really, suvival of the fittest has mostly been true. Most of the best ones have bubbled up to the top. Having the more obscure distros around for those that want them isn't so badJun 10 15:03
oiaohmLike when vendors go out of busness you are not completely stuffed getting your data if you have the source code.Jun 10 15:03
_Mutex_torvalds clearly stated that he was not goign to bring attention to security bugs, and "hide" them, (or you'll be a mastibating monkey)Jun 10 15:03
amarsh04and many are derivatives, like realtime/multimedia geared distros based on debian/ubuntuJun 10 15:03
oiaohmThere have been code audits performed over open source by us goverment and all producing adverage bug numbers.Jun 10 15:04
_Mutex_they are all derivativesJun 10 15:04
oiaohmThey also could do that over windows source code.Jun 10 15:04
_Mutex_and they do !!Jun 10 15:04
oiaohmGuess what on adverage the bug numbers are lower in the open source.Jun 10 15:04
amarsh04fixes flow between distributions pretty freelyJun 10 15:04
splosionamarsh04: the number of posts you see on UF where people actually suggest getting rid of Ubuntu and installing Mint JUST so that codecs work out of the box is insane. It really makes me shake my head in disgust, sometimesJun 10 15:05
_Mutex_which is why windows (and SOME linux ) are AEL4 ratedJun 10 15:05
oiaohmLinux is currently rated above windows.Jun 10 15:05
_Mutex_um, no its notJun 10 15:05
oiaohmFor approved distributions.Jun 10 15:05
_Mutex_they are both the sameJun 10 15:05
oiaohmwindows is not rated to have mixed classificaiton storage.Jun 10 15:05
_Mutex_infact most linux distro's dont make it, its only fedore 9 and a few othersJun 10 15:05
oiaohmNeither does the home provided versions of windows _Mutex_Jun 10 15:06
amarsh04splosion, I run vanilla debian plus and - if a free codec appears I can use it instead of a proprietary codec... if flash does something horrible I can use gnash...Jun 10 15:06
oiaohmThey need to be altered before they get up to rating _Mutex_Jun 10 15:06
amarsh04I still know what is free, what is not, and can decide to use or not use the softwareJun 10 15:07
_Mutex_im sure they do, but on those grounds based on the US govmt Linux is not better security rated than windows xp !!Jun 10 15:07
_Mutex_thems are teh factsJun 10 15:07
amarsh04the debian-multimedia person has worked towards making software fit for inclusion in debian as free softwareJun 10 15:08
oiaohmYou can at least buy distributions of Linux with the same rating the US gov uses.Jun 10 15:08
oiaohmYou cannot buy copies of windows with the same rating _Mutex_.Jun 10 15:08
_Mutex_as you can with windows tooJun 10 15:08
oiaohmNopJun 10 15:08
_Mutex_yes you can,, sorryJun 10 15:08
oiaohmThe alteration kit is not for sale.Jun 10 15:09
amarsh04even with network connectivity, _Mutex_ ?Jun 10 15:09
splosioncoolJun 10 15:09
_Mutex_excuse me, im talking about the AEL rating from teh US Government, Windows XP HAS IT, as does fedore 9 to AEL4 level.Jun 10 15:09
oiaohmThere is a reason why NSA has a signing key to install parts into windows kernel mode.Jun 10 15:09
_Mutex_soem not allJun 10 15:09
oiaohmXP gets it after NSA modules are installed.Jun 10 15:10
oiaohmNot out box.Jun 10 15:10
_Mutex_and you would really know that right,Jun 10 15:10
_Mutex_ever worked on any NSA equipment ??  i have lotsJun 10 15:10
oiaohmI know what they are patching.Jun 10 15:10
_Mutex_its really cool being issued pistols to more equipment around !!!Jun 10 15:10
_Mutex_more =  moveJun 10 15:11
oiaohmThere are a set of back doors that have to be shut.Jun 10 15:11
_Mutex_sure there are :)Jun 10 15:11
oiaohmOr you can go from guest account to full control of system.Jun 10 15:11
_Mutex_and russians under your bed tooJun 10 15:11
oiaohmOnly way to patch some of them are kernel mode alterations.Jun 10 15:11
amarsh04I'd rather use QNX for mission-critical applications than any flavour of ms-windowsJun 10 15:12
oiaohmWithout them patched XP fails AEL rating.Jun 10 15:12
fewa_Mutex_, you can audit Linux, you cant audit windowsJun 10 15:12
fewathats not paranoia, thats common senseJun 10 15:12
_Mutex_fact is XP IS on the list, say what you like its there, end of story reallyJun 10 15:12
oiaohmOn list patched.Jun 10 15:13
oiaohmNo on list unpatched.Jun 10 15:13
_Mutex_you can audit Windows, we'll YOU cant, the US govnt CAN and has and doesJun 10 15:13
oiaohmRHEL is on list unpatched.Jun 10 15:13
oiaohmThere is a big difference.Jun 10 15:13
oiaohmIf you are setting up a secure network non usa goverment you need to know the difference so people don't tell you that XP is the same when its not.Jun 10 15:14
oiaohmIncorrect _Mutex_Jun 10 15:14
amarsh04some process control applications actually run on bare hardware e.g. aircraft control for the laser airborne depth sounder... the source code *and* binaries are heavily audited to prevent the code from causing the aircraft to crashJun 10 15:14
_Mutex_I acutally think your not really knowing what your talking aboutJun 10 15:14
oiaohmI could audit Windows source code if I wanted to.Jun 10 15:15
oiaohmI would have to sign a NDA.Jun 10 15:15
oiaohmIts really not that hard to get your hands on Windows source code _Mutex_Jun 10 15:15
_Mutex_well thanks for answering your own question, ofcourse you can, but you state that YOU can but the US Government cannot ?Jun 10 15:15
_Mutex_I know I have itJun 10 15:16
_Mutex_Ive seen it and studied itJun 10 15:16
oiaohmBut you cannot rebuild it and use it.Jun 10 15:16
_Mutex_I know that tooJun 10 15:16
oiaohmSo you cannot repair it.Jun 10 15:16
_Mutex_Again, I knowJun 10 15:16
splosionI'm amazed nobody has uploaded the Windows source code to Usenet. What gives?Jun 10 15:17
_Mutex_are you then telling me you are capable of finding and fixing a bug in the 11 million lines of code that is linux ?Jun 10 15:17
_Mutex_I got it off torrentJun 10 15:17
oiaohmThe torrent is in fact incomplete.Jun 10 15:18
_Mutex_and like it or not, its clean, well written, well documentatedJun 10 15:18
_Mutex_how do you know what torrent I got oiamohm ?Jun 10 15:18
splosion "about 15%". Oh wellJun 10 15:18
amarsh04I would not want to audit code of that size... maybe floppy sized like the QNX demo disk or Tom's boot flppyJun 10 15:19
_Mutex_I actually got it from multiple sources, and I also have the NT source code.Jun 10 15:19
oiaohmThere have been no full source codes of windows ever released by torrent.Jun 10 15:19
amarsh04floppy evenJun 10 15:19
_Mutex_I know its not complete, I also know it was released to the web by an insecure Linux box !!!! go figureJun 10 15:19
oiaohmAlso I have audited through the Linux kernel before _Mutex_Jun 10 15:20
_Mutex_how big was it then ??? 5 million linesJun 10 15:20
_Mutex_so divide your live up by 5 million and how long for each line do you have to spend studying,Jun 10 15:21
oiaohmCurrently working threw 2.6.30 by the way.Jun 10 15:21
oiaohmThis is what defect hunter programs are for.Jun 10 15:21
_Mutex_not that viewing code very often shows bugs, testing is far more effective as is code reviews and so on.Jun 10 15:21
_Mutex_quality assurance and correct engineering.Jun 10 15:21
_Mutex_like LINT sureJun 10 15:21
amarsh04Novell even had enough trouble debugging a problem in the 3c509 ethernet card driver... remember that National Semiconductor were cautious to certify their own NS16550DN UART chips let alone a cpu or systemJun 10 15:22
_Mutex_lint wont find functional errors, nor will your compilerJun 10 15:22
splosionHrmm. The full size of the uncompressed source is over 50gb. yowzerJun 10 15:22
oiaohmlint is very primitive.Jun 10 15:22
_Mutex_nor will viewing the codeJun 10 15:22
_Mutex_yes it isJun 10 15:22
oiaohmThere are fare better tools out there.Jun 10 15:22
*mib_5gcjjy has quit (" ajax IRC Client")Jun 10 15:23
_Mutex_yes there are, and infinately better than "viewing " the code, the Many eyes thing does not work.Jun 10 15:23
splosion hahahaaJun 10 15:23
amarsh0480386 and above cpu's are too complex to certify... aerospace used the protected mode only intel 80376Jun 10 15:24
_Mutex_80386 too complicated to certify ,, Hmmm you know they have computers for that these days !! :)Jun 10 15:25
oiaohmHigh auditablity of who added what to the source code is also important _Mutex_Jun 10 15:25
oiaohmSo when 1 defect turns up you can check that coders releated works.Jun 10 15:26
oiaohmSomething Linux kernel is good at.Jun 10 15:26
_Mutex_quality assurance and software reviews are far more importand, as is all normal engineering standards.Jun 10 15:27
amarsh04yes Mutex, you need a cpu that only runs in one mode rather than switch between modes in strange and wondrous ways, and doesn't carry baggage like LOADALL and COMPXG whatever it was instructionsJun 10 15:27
_Mutex_So why is it then that you see "products" like Ubuntu shipping with over 25,000 known bugs. (bugs = engineering failures, noob errors, lazy coders)Jun 10 15:27
amarsh04and knowlege of what has gone wrong in the past and why... eg Mariner 1, Arianne V, y2k bugs in linkers...Jun 10 15:28
_Mutex_thing about computers is, they do the same things all the time, that includes switching between protected and user states,Jun 10 15:29
amarsh04Unix V7 was one of the last "all known bugs fixed" version of a Unix-like OSJun 10 15:29
fewa_Mutex_, Microsoft hides bugs in WindowsJun 10 15:29
_Mutex_most well known software desarters are due to not following normal engineering and QA standards,Jun 10 15:29
amarsh04I don't mean between user mode and kernel mode, I mean you don't want a mission critical cpu changing between real and protected mode all the time using a keyboard controllerJun 10 15:30
_Mutex_I dont care what windows does, you know know about 25,000 bugs (faults) in a product you design and build and release it in that state.Jun 10 15:30
_Mutex_you just dontJun 10 15:30
oiaohmThis is why selection of Linux distributions is important.   General Linux kernel funny enough does most of the QA.Jun 10 15:31
oiaohmUbuntu includes unstable crap like pulseaudio that don't help there bug numbers either.Jun 10 15:31
splosion"strings c:\windows\system32\ftp.exe" Aww. I didn't know about that.Jun 10 15:31
splosionoiaohm: I had to do some serious hacking about to get my pulseaudio to work on 9.04Jun 10 15:32
fewaI just switched it to ALSAJun 10 15:32
oiaohmJust like MS cut protections of direct X buffers in XP just to be flashy.Jun 10 15:32
fewasame thing I did for intrepidJun 10 15:32
fewawhile audio didnt work at all in vistaJun 10 15:32
oiaohmNumber old applications for windows that don't work in vista has to be fairly close to 25000 through any means.Jun 10 15:33
*amarsh04 runs alsa 1.0.20 with a sb live!5.1 sound card (not supported in windows later than win98se but works great in linux)Jun 10 15:33
oiaohmBar virtualisation.Jun 10 15:33
fewaamarsh04, i have the same sound cardJun 10 15:34
_Mutex_ive not found a single app that Ive used with XP that does not work on Vista or Win 7 and i have some really old crapJun 10 15:34
_Mutex_but it all worksJun 10 15:35
oiaohmHack there over 4 thousand open bugs in wine.Jun 10 15:35
fewaits a great sound card tooJun 10 15:35
amarsh04mine is model sb 0220 fewa, but even then there are different variantsJun 10 15:35
oiaohmQuestion is how many of those bugs are important _Mutex_Jun 10 15:35
_Mutex_every single one of them areJun 10 15:35
amarsh04love the wavetable synth for playing midi on a slow pc, good sound in and sound out alsoJun 10 15:35
oiaohm_Mutex_: luck.Jun 10 15:36
splosionI'm pretty sure Microsoft would rather not keep any backwards compatibility between versions at all. It probably holds them back some.Jun 10 15:36
oiaohmWine testsuite shows many major abi differences between XP and ViSTA.Jun 10 15:36
_Mutex_so if i was INTEL and i had to create a CPU with 11 million components in it, I would be allowed to design that product with 25,000 faults on it ? I dont think soJun 10 15:36
oiaohmAnd there are a stack of application that fail.Jun 10 15:36
oiaohmDue to those differences.Jun 10 15:36
_Mutex_I would expect I would be out of a job quickly if I tried thatJun 10 15:37
fewa_Mutex_, intel has released chips that cant do floating pointJun 10 15:37
fewainto mass productionJun 10 15:37
splosionand don't forget that failure rates for microchip production are enormousJun 10 15:37
oiaohmintel allows microcode patching for a reason _Mutex_Jun 10 15:37
oiaohmBecause they have screwed up quite a few times.Jun 10 15:38
_Mutex_So they have ONE error that occures only in very special condition, they offer free replacement to ANYONE who can show they are affected by the fault and they re-jig their plant at great expense !!Jun 10 15:38
oiaohmYou load a repair microcode by by problem.Jun 10 15:38
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amarsh04it took quite a while before intel offered free replacement for faulty pentiumsJun 10 15:38
fewaand it cost them alot of money to do itJun 10 15:38
DaemonFCthe ones with the math rounding error?Jun 10 15:38
DaemonFCI has one of thoseJun 10 15:39
_Mutex_Increasing microcode, reduces throughput, reduces MIPS specs and lowers your competition in the marketJun 10 15:39
fewaDaemonFC, its a collectors item :PJun 10 15:39
oiaohm_Mutex_: number is about 2000 know intel defects.Jun 10 15:39
DaemonFC9 updates availableJun 10 15:39
oiaohmrounding error is not the only 1.Jun 10 15:39
amarsh04usual response to hardware problems is to say that the problem is an unsupported featureJun 10 15:39
oiaohmThere have been memory management errors.Jun 10 15:39
_Mutex_thats right they took responsibility for the ONE error and FIXED it, they did not SHIP a product with thousands of errors that "we'll get to someday"Jun 10 15:39
oiaohmGive some intel processes more than 16 gb of ram.Jun 10 15:40
oiaohmWithout microcode patch pray.Jun 10 15:40
_Mutex_and Ubuntu has nearly 30,000 and it can be fixed MUCH easier than something locked in silicon !Jun 10 15:40
DaemonFCmalicious software removal tool, Media Center bug fix, ActiveX killbits update, 3 security updates, and a cululative security update for MSIE 8Jun 10 15:40
amarsh04if you want to gain an insight into hardware design difficulty _Mutex_, read the opengraphics mailing list archivesJun 10 15:40
oiaohmsystem will not stay running long once you enable OS using the full memory space.Jun 10 15:40
splosionerr, you appear to have mixed up hardware and software in your troll attempt, tharrJun 10 15:40
DaemonFCThis security update resolves seven privately reported vulnerabilities and one publicly disclosed vulnerability in Internet Explorer. The more severe of the vulnerabilities could allow remote code execution if a user views a specially crafted Web page using Internet Explorer. Users whose accounts are configured to have fewer user rights on the system could be less impacted than users who operate with administrative user rights.Jun 10 15:41
DaemonFCThis security update is rated Critical for Internet Explorer 5.01 and Important for Internet Explorer 6 Service Pack 1, running on supported editions of Microsoft Windows 2000; Critical for Internet Explorer 6, Internet Explorer 7, and Internet Explorer 8 running on supported editions of Windows XP and Windows Vista; and Moderate for Internet Explorer 6, Internet Explorer 7, and Internet Explorer 8 running on supported editionsJun 10 15:41
DaemonFCof Windows Server 2003 and Windows Server 2008. For more information, see the subsection, Affected and Non-Affected Software, in this section.Jun 10 15:41
_Mutex_Ive spent my life doing hardware and software design and engineering, I KNOW whats involvedJun 10 15:41
DaemonFCboy if I had a nickel....Jun 10 15:41
oiaohmOn a per line of code base intel processes and Ubuntu.  Ubuntu would be still less bugs _Mutex_Jun 10 15:41
_Mutex_IE 5.1, you still in the stone age ??Jun 10 15:41
DaemonFCno, it's saying that some of the vulnerabilities exist in IE 5.01 THROUGH IE 8Jun 10 15:42
oiaohmYou are aware intel processes are risc inside and use a software x86 instruction converter.Jun 10 15:42
splosionit just seems a pointless endeavour to compare bugs in hardware with bugs in software. You can't download a fucking processorJun 10 15:42
amarsh04_Mutex_ you should volunteer at a university to tutor some ee/comsci students in the basicsJun 10 15:42
_Mutex_oiaohm, I dont think they would have more than 26,000 bugs in silicon, and still have a working product.Jun 10 15:42
oiaohmI said lines of code.Jun 10 15:43
amarsh04my father-in-law did that and he *was* a rocket scientistJun 10 15:43
oiaohmUbuntu has a way large line of code than the translation engine in a intel processor _Mutex_Jun 10 15:43
_Mutex_I teach communications theory, mainly radio and telecommunications systems.Jun 10 15:43
DaemonFC 10 15:43
_Mutex_oimohm your point is ?Jun 10 15:43
DaemonFCbunch of Windows Medi9a center bug fixesJun 10 15:44
DaemonFC*MediaJun 10 15:44
splosion_Mutex_: that's dandy. I am a radio operator.Jun 10 15:44
oiaohmWhen you level the numbers on lines of code intel can really only have 1 bug every 10 years to be equal  and intel is way ahead of that _Mutex_Jun 10 15:44
_Mutex_does not matter how many lines of code, 1 or a million, bugs are engineering flaws, errors, mistakes, poor engineering, poor testing, poor QA you name it,Jun 10 15:44
amarsh04I wasted a lot of money on modems and telephone bills until telstra upgraded their echo cancellors to g.165 compliant units _Mutex_Jun 10 15:44
oiaohmIe in the losing direction.Jun 10 15:44
oiaohmSize of code base is a factor to number of bugs _Mutex_Jun 10 15:45
_Mutex_You cant do that in silicon and get away with it, you cant do that in hardware and get away with it, nor should you be able to get away with it in software.Jun 10 15:45
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_Mutex_It should not be.Jun 10 15:45
oiaohmSorry to say the silcon in simpler than the OS running on it.Jun 10 15:46
splosionDaemonFC: This security update is rated critical for your CD-recording applications. Without this update, all files you create using CD-ripping software will contain malicious viruses that will destroy your computer. Sorry.Jun 10 15:46
_Mutex_If you allowed a pilot to make x number of errors per 1000 would you mind if that error is when your landing and he forgets the put the brakes on ?Jun 10 15:46
_Mutex_how many errors would you tolerate from a pilot ?Jun 10 15:46
oiaohmHow many cpus are perfect?Jun 10 15:46
DaemonFCI just think it's funny that IE 7 and 8 have so many security problems, but Microsoft only ever rates them "Moderate"Jun 10 15:46
_Mutex_or a civil engineer building a skyscraper ?Jun 10 15:47
oiaohmAnswer none _Mutex_Jun 10 15:47
DaemonFCon Vista anywayJun 10 15:47
_Mutex_CorrectJun 10 15:47
oiaohmEach one has a production defect in there somewhere.Jun 10 15:47
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DaemonFCgod damn itJun 10 15:47
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oiaohmthis is why your argument is point less.   No building is perfect either.Jun 10 15:47
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DaemonFCahemJun 10 15:48
oiaohmControl of inperfection is all you can hope for _Mutex_Jun 10 15:48
DaemonFCwe're all fine here, everythings OK, just a slight weapons malfunctionJun 10 15:48
_Mutex_its not, but im sure it does not contain x number of design faults that would send it crashing to the ground.Jun 10 15:48
DaemonFCreactor leak, very dangerous......Jun 10 15:48
DaemonFCgive us a minute to lock it down :PJun 10 15:48
DaemonFChuge leakJun 10 15:48
oiaohmHow many will _Mutex_Jun 10 15:48
oiaohmthere are a lot of distribution bugs that would be like the cabin light fails.Jun 10 15:49
*amarsh04 is chatting to a former reactor engineer in another channelJun 10 15:49
oiaohmPlan still flies and you can get it back turn on so no problem.Jun 10 15:49
fewa_Mutex_, linux has Mandatory Access Controls, things that let you control your software, make sure it only does what you let itJun 10 15:49
_Mutex_face it software is the ONLY "engineering" disipline that accecpts faults and errors as normal,Jun 10 15:49
_Mutex_FC ??Jun 10 15:49
DaemonFCI'm still waking up, eyes are blearyJun 10 15:49
oiaohmNo silcon chip design also accept errors inside tollerances.Jun 10 15:50
splosionLinus Torvalds: Look your worshipfulness, I take orders from one person: me!   Pamela Jones: Will somebody get this big walking carpet out of my way!?   Stallman: RarrrrrrghJun 10 15:50
DaemonFCtried to click on ImgBurn and started a new XChatJun 10 15:50
oiaohmSame with most forms of engineering.Jun 10 15:50
oiaohmTollerences in bugs is what would be the effect of this bug.Jun 10 15:50
_Mutex_errors within tollerances are by DEFINITION not errors !! ie they are within tollerance Hmm simple reallyJun 10 15:50
oiaohmIf it crashes the OS yep it has to be fixed.Jun 10 15:50
oiaohmExaclty _Mutex_Jun 10 15:51
DaemonFCschestowitz: My brother said that his school has rolled out some kind of Linux on all the classroom PCsJun 10 15:51
oiaohmEvery distribution has a list of tollerences that are acceptable to ship with.Jun 10 15:51
DaemonFCthe ones in the offices still run Windows XP thoughJun 10 15:51
DaemonFCthe town is broke, so it makes sense that they'd finally break and ditch the idea of upgrading thousands of Windows PCsJun 10 15:52
_Mutex_with digital tollerenses are like being pregnant you are or you are not.  its digital its 0 or its NOT 0Jun 10 15:52
oiaohmYes they are still list as bugs because they are.  Its like if a grinding machine is slighting cutting the bits under size and they still work ok.Jun 10 15:52
oiaohmThey are not black and white.  _Mutex_Jun 10 15:52
oiaohmthere is a rating system on most of them.Jun 10 15:52
DaemonFCoiaohm: You figure that's what's going on with the $50/100 Windows 7 discs?Jun 10 15:52
DaemonFCa "Please don't use Linux!" plea?Jun 10 15:53
_Mutex_sorry digital actually is black and white, (again by definition).Jun 10 15:53
oiaohmDepends if the digital is processing fuzzy logic or not.Jun 10 15:53
_Mutex_even fuzzy logic is still logic and its still digitalJun 10 15:54
*DaemonFC reminds splosion that he has 3 days left to activate or I'll take away his wallpaper and bitch every hourJun 10 15:54
_Mutex_as you should well knowJun 10 15:54
DaemonFC:)Jun 10 15:54
amarsh04if you can have fully specified hardware, you can start to have highly reliable softwareJun 10 15:54
oiaohmfuzzy logic is about covering invents in digital that are not really black or while.Jun 10 15:54
oiaohmSame applies to bugs.Jun 10 15:54
oiaohmSome bugs like X feature don't work but program does not crash and does not harm is not what you call a rushed job to fix.Jun 10 15:55
_Mutex_fuzzy logic is a form of control algorithm, just like a PID controller but with a different algorithm, its still computer code, its still 0 or 1.Jun 10 15:55
DaemonFCoiaohm: Is there any decent way to convert flv to just plain H.264 that does not involve playing it back real fast through VLC while it converts?Jun 10 15:55
amarsh04avidemux doesn't support that?Jun 10 15:56
_Mutex_PID = proportional, Intergral, differential (small a) for anti intergral windup.Jun 10 15:56
oiaohmNot that I know of the top of my head _Mutex_Jun 10 15:56
DaemonFCI really haven't taken a look at thatJun 10 15:56
oiaohm_Mutex_: How would you order bug fixing.Jun 10 15:56
DaemonFCI hear the Sansa I bought has some kind of internal software that can convert videos to a format it supportsJun 10 15:57
oiaohmwith limited resourses.Jun 10 15:57
DaemonFCwhich makes no sense at allJun 10 15:57
DaemonFCif it supports converting from a format, it should support PLAYING it, right?Jun 10 15:57
splosionDaemon: mencoder input.flv -o output.avi -ovc x264 -x264encopts bitrate=500 -oac mp3lame -lameopts abr:br=52Jun 10 15:57
DaemonFCI mean how retarded is this?Jun 10 15:57
oiaohmIt the same as having to repair a building with limited resources or build chips with limited resources.Jun 10 15:57
amarsh04I've had some issues with avidemux creating audio/video out of sync, depending on source material and output options chosenJun 10 15:57
oiaohmYou have fix what is the most critical first.  _Mutex_Jun 10 15:58
_Mutex_how would I, I do not release code with known bugs, never, who do i get around that,, i dont , i fix the bugs, test and release and support.Jun 10 15:58
oiaohmThere is a problem.Jun 10 15:58
oiaohmSo you would never release anything.Jun 10 15:58
_Mutex_If i released hardware or software designs with bugs I would be fired, and ive never been fired.Jun 10 15:58
amarsh04and also remember the line from report small bugs as they can hide big bugsJun 10 15:58
DaemonFCthat's trueJun 10 15:59
DaemonFCthey can be a symptom of a much larger problemJun 10 15:59
_Mutex_Ive released LOTS AND LOTS of things, mainly in the S&I fields, (scientific and industrial instrumentation)Jun 10 15:59
splosionDaemonFC: just use ffmpeg. I just gave you the syntax :PJun 10 15:59
DaemonFCUbuntu prefers the other way around "report huge bugs so we can hide them"Jun 10 15:59
DaemonFC:)Jun 10 15:59
amarsh04what is the code size you are dealing with _Mutex_?Jun 10 15:59
oiaohmHave you had people testing while you are developing it like Ubuntu developers have to put up with.Jun 10 15:59
oiaohmSo always finding bugs.Jun 10 15:59
oiaohmso you can never get to release point.Jun 10 16:00
DaemonFCoiaohm: I like Fedora for a few reasons, one of which is KojiJun 10 16:00
_Mutex_depends on the app, alot is small c code apps, but ive done some huge labVIEW apps that consume megs of code.Jun 10 16:00
fewafor a stable system i would also recommend debian over ubuntuJun 10 16:00
DaemonFCI never have to build the latest kernels if I need oneJun 10 16:00
DaemonFCcause they're always already thereJun 10 16:00
fewadebian stable is _very_ stableJun 10 16:00
amarsh04one part of a package I developed was made far simpler by being able to implement a finite state machine directlyJun 10 16:01
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oiaohmHave you ever had the case where you code is being tested while you are developing _Mutex_Jun 10 16:01
_Mutex_state machines in LabVIEW are SUPER NICE :)Jun 10 16:01
_Mutex_yes i haveJun 10 16:01
_Mutex_and the hardware was designed and tested before the software, and the software designed and tested before the hardwareJun 10 16:02
amarsh04and then the party that it interfaced to (Australian Taxation Office) had their implmentation wrong and never apologised after finding the problem was at their endJun 10 16:02
_Mutex_depends on the jobJun 10 16:02
amarsh04implementation evenJun 10 16:02
_Mutex_amarsh, what was the code in VB ?Jun 10 16:03
_Mutex_i know the ATO are quite windows centricJun 10 16:03
amarsh04initial electronic lodgement service in 1989... state machine for sending tax returns in Kermit for MS-DOS... I still do some stuff with kermit development and you'll find my name in the credits for the last edition of  "Using C Kermit"Jun 10 16:05
_Mutex_omg I forgot kermitJun 10 16:06
oiaohmI know from ubuntu mapping to wine that at least 1000 of those open bugs are wine not going to be fixed any time soon.   There are over 20000 packages in ubuntu.   You will find there are some bug central points too.Jun 10 16:06
amarsh04you should read the changelogs about the lengths they go to finding out why code doesn't work on some platforms... one of the most complex sets of #define's in makefiles knownJun 10 16:07
oiaohmDue to the size of distributions its basically impossiable to release them 100 perecent bug free _Mutex_.Jun 10 16:07
oiaohmParticularly with items like wine in the mix that require lots of work to close each bug.Jun 10 16:07
amarsh04the kermit project released a very small gpl'd subset called gkermitJun 10 16:08
_Mutex_I know 100% bug free might be a big as, but not 25,000 bugs "so lets ship",Jun 10 16:08
amarsh04kermit runs on almost as many platforms as gzipJun 10 16:08
_Mutex_what was the other one, there was kermit and telnet ? or something else i think it was called, thats going back a ways :)Jun 10 16:09
oiaohmLot of parts of the distribution are bug free _Mutex_Jun 10 16:09
amarsh04I still hate the "it's stable and relatively bug-free so let's declare it obsolete" mentalityJun 10 16:09
oiaohmThere are just some places like compiz pulseaudio and others that are bug clusters _Mutex_Jun 10 16:10
_Mutex_oiaohm, sorry that does not cut it, sure if its got 25,000 bugs you be able to find parts with no bugs, so ?Jun 10 16:10
oiaohmUbuntu could cut there numbers way back by giving up a lot of flashy bits.Jun 10 16:10
_Mutex_yes amarsh04 thats true, it worked fineJun 10 16:10
amarsh04file transfer x/y/zmodem, sealink, kermit, uucp...Jun 10 16:10
oiaohmzlib was said to be bug free as well at one point.Jun 10 16:11
_Mutex_that exactly what they should do, quality over form anydayJun 10 16:11
oiaohmMany years latter it was proven false.Jun 10 16:11
oiaohmDifferent distributions do _Mutex_Jun 10 16:12
oiaohmIf people want to play with cutting edge stuff they should not complain about it bitting them a few times.Jun 10 16:12
*splosion is now known as splosion_Jun 10 16:12
amarsh04some sites build a debian kernel with no modules and only the drivers needed for the specific hardware that their machines runJun 10 16:13
splosion_I'm off to take advantage of a legal loophole that allows me to download unDRM'd versions of television shows that aren't meant to be available without DRM. ttylJun 10 16:13
amarsh04I should get some sleep tooJun 10 16:13
fewathe thing you all are not seeing is that alot of those bug are in software you dont have installedJun 10 16:13
fewaas in GNU/Linux it is very easy to only install only what you want installedJun 10 16:14
_Mutex_im just looking at it as an engineer, if you find a fault in your design, you fix it  and go onto the next part of the design, you dont just "write it down" and carry on with something else.Jun 10 16:14
oiaohmNot that simple.Jun 10 16:15
_Mutex_ive designed this skyscraper but the main supporting beam is not strong enough to hold up the building, but its ok, ive written it down !!!Jun 10 16:15
oiaohmThat is very much like saying you don't see a road yet will not build bridge under road.Jun 10 16:15
oiaohmso you will try to put road in midair with no support.Jun 10 16:16
_Mutex_no its saying as im building or designing the road I find a "bugJun 10 16:16
_Mutex_" that requires a fixJun 10 16:16
_Mutex_that might be a bridge or a diversion or whatever,Jun 10 16:16
oiaohmBugs in open source can be very much like build road.Jun 10 16:16
_Mutex_but i dont ignore it, write it down and forget about it, i fix it and more onJun 10 16:16
oiaohmJust forgeting there is a river in way.Jun 10 16:17
oiaohmLot of wine long term bugs are that cat.Jun 10 16:17
oiaohmLot of other things required to be fixed first.Jun 10 16:17
oiaohmSo the long term bug could be fixed.Jun 10 16:18
_Mutex_for every 1000 miles of road you are allowed to have a dead end, a cliff, and a brick wall, because your "allowed" a certain number of screw up ?Jun 10 16:18
_Mutex_yes they should,Jun 10 16:18
oiaohmPeople have ended up off clifts because no one put up the warning sign before.Jun 10 16:19
oiaohmI would personally take the brick wall to that.Jun 10 16:19
oiaohmWine need to test there workman ship on the bugs the fix that the long term bugs depend on.Jun 10 16:21
_Mutex_not a good thing right, and mabey it might of even killed you,  thats what happens when engineers go wrong :)Jun 10 16:21
oiaohmAnd to get code to users for testing required releases.Jun 10 16:21
oiaohmNasty little problem that.Jun 10 16:21
oiaohmHow to get broad enough testing to keep building on top of without releases.Jun 10 16:22
oiaohmIn the highly complex projects.Jun 10 16:22
oiaohmIts very much you enginering.Jun 10 16:23
oiaohmBuild so far test.  Ok its good build more.Jun 10 16:23
amarsh04some of the *bsd's had a very limited set of supported hardware that was officially supported... if you can limit the target hardware, you don't need so many person hours to test the "supported" configurationsJun 10 16:23
oiaohmYep as amarsh04 just said problem is the broad types of hardware and setups you have to test for.Jun 10 16:24
amarsh04one tax software company shipped brand-new known-configuration pcs to customers rather than have to support their software on old pcsJun 10 16:24
oiaohmTestcases only get you so far.Jun 10 16:24
oiaohmBugs are part plan.   Part problems and part I wish people did not duplicate bug reports.Jun 10 16:26
schestowitzJean Baudrillard - Cultural Identity and Politics - 2002 1/8 < >Jun 10 16:26
_Mutex_so whats FOSS's QA statement or QA policy, and does Linux perform code reviews, evaluations, and detailed testing, (not user testing)Jun 10 16:27
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_Hicham_Hi All!Jun 10 16:27
_Hicham_howdy oiaohm?Jun 10 16:27
oiaohmLinux kernel performs code reviews that have turned up some nasty bugs.  evaluations and detailed testing.   Backed up with user testing.Jun 10 16:28
oiaohmHi _Hicham_Jun 10 16:28
_Mutex_clearly if its willing to ship with such large numbers of bugs, they dont have a strong QA system in place,Jun 10 16:28
fewa_Mutex_, install debian stableJun 10 16:28
_Hicham_no, it is not thatJun 10 16:28
_Hicham_it is a big projectJun 10 16:28
oiaohmWine does all of them too.Jun 10 16:28
_Hicham_big projects needs community testimJun 10 16:28
_Hicham_*testingJun 10 16:28
_Mutex_formal code reviews as part of a formal QA system is what I ment, and they dont, they cant and ship with so many design faultsJun 10 16:29
oiaohmYet it still has 4000 bugs+ open  _Mutex_Jun 10 16:29
_Hicham_u can't compare Linux kernel to ordinary projectsJun 10 16:29
oiaohmClosing them is not simple _Mutex_Jun 10 16:29
_Mutex_what has 4000 bugs open ?Jun 10 16:29
oiaohmwineJun 10 16:29
_Hicham_more than 4000Jun 10 16:29
oiaohmSingle project _Mutex_Jun 10 16:29
*neighborlee has quit (Remote closed the connection)Jun 10 16:29 has reached 100000 bugs reportedJun 10 16:29
oiaohmThis is what I am getting at lot of those bugs are concertrated.Jun 10 16:30
_Mutex_that says it all, and its certainly not something to brag about,Jun 10 16:30
_Hicham_all of them are hardware relatedJun 10 16:30
_Mutex_thats dismalJun 10 16:30
_Hicham_and because they were drivers blindly added to the kernelJun 10 16:30
oiaohmNot really.  Lot of cases hardware makers specs don't match there devices _Mutex_Jun 10 16:30
_Hicham_so it is not their faultJun 10 16:30
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_Hicham_it is the vendors faultJun 10 16:30
_Hicham_aka Intel and othersJun 10 16:30
oiaohmAnd you talk about QA controls _Mutex_Jun 10 16:31
fewato anybody who thinks Linux is unstable, so out there and install it, test it outJun 10 16:31
_Hicham_go for Fedora, which is considered the bleeding edge distro out thereJun 10 16:31
_Hicham_test it and tell meJun 10 16:31
_Hicham_a lot of hardware just worksJun 10 16:31
schestowitzWb, _Hicham_ , Tallken Jun 10 16:31
fewaSee how it doesnt need rebootingJun 10 16:31
oiaohmLinux found with ATI video card that features ATI never though any company had released they had.Jun 10 16:31
schestowitzI'm quiet today cause I've been away a lotJun 10 16:31
schestowitzLibrary earlierJun 10 16:31
_Hicham_thanks schestowitzJun 10 16:32
Tallkenhi schestowitzJun 10 16:32
oiaohmBecause opensource drivers would not work  _Mutex_Jun 10 16:32
schestowitzI'll do some quick postsJun 10 16:32
fewaschestowitz, i noticed that kubuntu doesnt come with monoJun 10 16:32
oiaohmSo they had to go back and fill in a section that was not documented _Mutex_Jun 10 16:32
fewaat least 8.10Jun 10 16:32
_Hicham_ATI drivers are a big example of how open source drivers can improveJun 10 16:32
schestowitzfewa: why would it?Jun 10 16:32
fewaidkJun 10 16:32
_Mutex_fair enough, i have no problems with thatJun 10 16:32
schestowitzOOo more lieklyJun 10 16:32
fewai guess the kde distros are freeJun 10 16:32
schestowitzGo-OOOXMLJun 10 16:32
_Hicham_all major distros are freeJun 10 16:33
schestowitzMEPIS is feeJun 10 16:33
oiaohmBasically when it comes to bugs things are not as straight forward as most people would hope _Mutex_Jun 10 16:33
_Hicham_are u a dev _Mutex_?Jun 10 16:33
_Mutex_that is true, just like all engineering errors in designJun 10 16:33
oiaohmLike wine mouse bugs they can only be fixed once XI2 gets released.Jun 10 16:34
_Hicham_u seem to be very proficient is OSes since u choose this nickJun 10 16:34
_Mutex_software is no differentJun 10 16:34
_Hicham_Mutual ExclusionJun 10 16:34
oiaohmSo wine is waiting on X11 to release that so they can fix them _Mutex_Jun 10 16:34
_Mutex_thats right, VMS mutex'sJun 10 16:34
_Mutex_well mutex's in generalJun 10 16:34
oiaohmX11 is in no hurry about it becausee the only application broken was wine _Mutex_Jun 10 16:34
oiaohmNo point stuff up the rest of the stack just for wine.Jun 10 16:35
_Hicham_did u implements the philosophers' problem solution?Jun 10 16:35
oiaohmyep few bugs here and there stack up.Jun 10 16:35
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[trmanco] FTC takes down a spam provider: 10 16:35
_Hicham_if u are that proficient with Mutices _Mutex_, go help the kernel devsJun 10 16:35
_Hicham_go implement a robust file lockJun 10 16:36
_Mutex_how do you know I dont :)Jun 10 16:36
oiaohmThen some other wine bugs depend on dri2 working.Jun 10 16:36
_Mutex_or a good versioning file system to replace ext4Jun 10 16:36
_Hicham_it is not versioningJun 10 16:36
fewammm COWJun 10 16:36
_Hicham_we need a solid file lockJun 10 16:36
_Mutex_ext4 is not thats right, therefore the requirement for one !!!Jun 10 16:36
_Hicham_no, ext4 is fineJun 10 16:37
_Hicham_it just needs testingJun 10 16:37
oiaohm  << So you mean this that is in 2.6.30 Linux kernel _Mutex_Jun 10 16:37
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_Hicham_what is ur main area of development _Mutex_?Jun 10 16:38
_Mutex_reading that it performs a snapshop of the complete file system, I was refering to the VMS style versioning system, where the files are postfixed with a version number as opposed to writing over the previous copy.Jun 10 16:39
_Hicham_that has advantages and disadvantagesJun 10 16:39
_Mutex_a proper versioning system, and while your at it put a good DCL bash into the OS too :)Jun 10 16:39
_Hicham_obvious onesJun 10 16:39
_Hicham_I think it will never be implementedJun 10 16:40
_Mutex_embedded, scada, scientific instrumentation, and military communications, satellite comms systems and cryptographyJun 10 16:40
_Hicham_or introduced officially into kernelJun 10 16:40
fewaCOW is bestJun 10 16:40
_Mutex_electronics engineering and systems engineerings / software engineer, sysadmin, general geek typeJun 10 16:41
_Hicham_there is no one to talk to in hereJun 10 16:41
_Hicham_schestowitz : are u still in here?Jun 10 16:45
Balrogsomeone should watch the odf wikipedia pageJun 10 16:45
Balrog :/Jun 10 16:45
_Mutex_why, what it doint ?Jun 10 16:46
_Mutex_doing ?Jun 10 16:46
schestowitzYesJun 10 16:46
schestowitzJust writing some stuff ATMJun 10 16:46
schestowitzBalrog: I already watch itJun 10 16:47
_Mutex_have those links been sorted out schestowitz ?Jun 10 16:47
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mib_xon7wthave any lawyers looked at M$ telling oem's what hardware they can and can't  put their software on?Jun 10 16:50
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[astralknight] Content producers dig Linux too!!!: 10 16:50
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[astralknight] SPOTTED: Linux notebooks with ARM CPUs: 10 16:50
schestowitzHMmmm..Jun 10 16:52
_Mutex_link it mib !Jun 10 16:52
Balrogschestowitz: 10 16:52
schestowitzIf you search Google Images for "Microsoft", BN is in page 1Jun 10 16:52
schestowitzBalrog: I watch them all in batchesJun 10 16:52
Balrogahh ok.Jun 10 16:52
Balroglooks like there's been a batch of 'changes' right now :(Jun 10 16:53
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_Mutex_and contrary to popular believe, im not anti foss or pre ms or the other way round, ive just got a thing (bee in bonett) about software quality, but I just cant get pashionate for or against  some noughts and ones  on a computer.Jun 10 16:59
mib_mwux6ySorry I know I am bursting into the middle of others conversations. I would like to know how suspect you think it is that microsoft is dictating to oem companies what hardware they can and can't put windows on. Are lawyers looking at this?Jun 10 16:59
_Mutex_can you link it mib, so I can confirm your right ?Jun 10 16:59
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fewa_Mutex_, 10 17:02
fewa_Mutex_, i think you have to seperate the bugs in the whole distrobution with the bugs in the software that you actually use and installJun 10 17:02
fewa_Mutex_, and if you want a really stable system i recommend debian, or centos, instead of a more cutting edge distro like ubuntu or fedoraJun 10 17:03
mib_mwux6yI can see it is a busy forum, if anyone replies i will probably miss it, chance we all take.Jun 10 17:03
Balrogheh, I use gentoo :)Jun 10 17:03
Balrogtrying out nouveau caused my Xorg to get broken ...Jun 10 17:03
fewai want to reboot and try fedora 11 with nouveauJun 10 17:03
_Hicham_fewa : did u install Fedora 11?Jun 10 17:04
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_Mutex_stability is not an issue, its not been an issue in windows for years, its never been an issue in VMS and it should not be an issue with any OS in 2009Jun 10 17:05
_Mutex_Balrog, i just read that article, its the minimum specs that MS suggest for a half decent computing experience, they are NOT FORCING OEM's to use specific hardware or software for that matter.Jun 10 17:06
_Mutex_stability was a problem with Win95 as was Win96 hopeless memory manager that would not deal with more than 512 meg, that was the possible golden age for LinuxJun 10 17:07
_Mutex_because if you had a high end PC in 1995 and 1gig or more RAM you had to use Linux to take advantage of it,Jun 10 17:07
BalrogVista isn't stable even on powerful hardwareJun 10 17:07
_Mutex_Win95 was not good, but RH7.0 at that time, was not perfect, but was on par with or better than 95Jun 10 17:08
MinceRno OS was perfect, ever :>Jun 10 17:08
_Mutex_Ive never seen my vistra machine crash ever, and i push it hard,Jun 10 17:08
_Mutex_If you know of a way to crash it, let me know ill try itJun 10 17:08
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DaemonFCwell, Fedora is failing to read a lot of my DVDsJun 10 17:09
_Mutex_MinceR that is correct, but certainly some are good and some are just average and some are downright terribleJun 10 17:09
DaemonFCit keeps telling me "Unable to mount UDF volume" and somethign about a bad superblockJun 10 17:09
BalrogDaemonFC: defective disc? or corrupted disc (on purpose)Jun 10 17:10
DaemonFCI burned both these discs on Vista, XP seems to like one of themJun 10 17:10
DaemonFCbut has problems with the otherJun 10 17:10
DaemonFCFedora can't read eitherJun 10 17:10
_Mutex_thats odd,. you cant even view the raw data in a file manager? or your unable to even mount them ?Jun 10 17:11
_Hicham_maybe the filesystem?Jun 10 17:11
_Mutex_Right unable to mount sorry missed that oneJun 10 17:11
DaemonFCcan't mount themJun 10 17:11
_Hicham_did u burn it with Vista's built-in CD/DVD burner?Jun 10 17:11
_Mutex_its not a silly region thing or something ?Jun 10 17:11
DaemonFChold onJun 10 17:12
DaemonFCgrabbed a screenshotJun 10 17:12
DaemonFC 10 17:12
_Hicham_a la DaemonFCJun 10 17:13
DaemonFCthen XP can't read one of themJun 10 17:13
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BalrogDaemonFC: if it's regions, and your drive isn't region-free, you're out of luckJun 10 17:14
DaemonFCwhy the hell would it reagion encode them?Jun 10 17:14
DaemonFCand why can XP read one of them if that's the problem?Jun 10 17:15
DaemonFC*regionJun 10 17:15
_Mutex_your recorder might,Jun 10 17:15
DaemonFCthat makes no sense at allJun 10 17:15
_Hicham_it makes senseJun 10 17:15
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] Microsoft’s FUD Against GNU/Linux on Sub-notebooks Enters Next Level 10 17:15
DaemonFCXP just says the drive is not accessibleJun 10 17:15
DaemonFCI'll use XP  to salvage what I can from the disc it can readJun 10 17:16
MinceRaren't regions only implemented in CSS?Jun 10 17:16
DaemonFCthank god that's the one with the important stuff on itJun 10 17:16
_Mutex_yes, seems like it is not recognising the file structure type or the root sector of the medium, or something silly with un closed write sessions or what not.Jun 10 17:16
DaemonFCjesusJun 10 17:16
splosion_hrmm?Jun 10 17:17
DaemonFCXP can understand this oneJun 10 17:17
DaemonFCI burned it on Vista SP1Jun 10 17:17
_Mutex_or a simple write error,  I bet you didnt go through the long checksum check when buring the DVDJun 10 17:17
DaemonFCthe other disc I burned on Vista SP2Jun 10 17:17
DaemonFCand neither XP or Fedora can read itJun 10 17:17
_Mutex_using the OS's burner SW ?Jun 10 17:17
DaemonFCwell, the disc neither can read I burned with ExplorerJun 10 17:18
_Hicham_ 10 17:18
_Hicham_it is an old problemJun 10 17:18
DaemonFCand the one that only XP can read I burned with ImgBurnJun 10 17:18
_Hicham_it is udf version related babeJun 10 17:18
_Mutex_thats your problem, ive found many times the exact same thing after burning using windows native burner SW its crapJun 10 17:18
_Hicham_patches didn't make it into the mainstream kernelJun 10 17:18
_Mutex_download "burn4free" it works every time, i love itJun 10 17:19
splosion_how about mount -t udf /dev/sr0 /media/dvdJun 10 17:19
splosion_will that work?Jun 10 17:19
DaemonFCso how am I going to get XP to burn a clean disc that Fedora can read?Jun 10 17:19
DaemonFCdoes XP have this problem?Jun 10 17:19
_Hicham_DaemonFC : use InfraRecorderJun 10 17:20
_Mutex_download "burn4free" and use that and never ever the windows burner SWJun 10 17:20
DaemonFCI'm dumping the stuff off the disc XP can read to the hard drive and I'll burn a new disc based on thatJun 10 17:21
DaemonFC:PJun 10 17:21
splosion_DaemonFC: try mounting the disc with the udf type option.Jun 10 17:21
DaemonFCI do that how?Jun 10 17:21
_Mutex_just dont use the MS burner Software, it seems to kill more disks than burn them.Jun 10 17:21
_Hicham_ 10 17:22
_Mutex_since i droped it, and use freeware ive never had a problem, 100% success and fastJun 10 17:22
splosion_mount -t udf /dev/sr0 /media/dvdJun 10 17:22
splosion_or whatever directory Fedora uses for DVDsJun 10 17:22
DaemonFCmount -t udf /dev/sr0 /mediaJun 10 17:23
DaemonFCmount: block device /dev/sr0 is write-protected, mounting read-onlyJun 10 17:23
DaemonFCmount: wrong fs type, bad option, bad superblock on /dev/sr0,Jun 10 17:23
DaemonFC       missing codepage or helper program, or other errorJun 10 17:23
DaemonFC       In some cases useful info is found in syslog - tryJun 10 17:23
DaemonFC       dmesg | tail  or soJun 10 17:23
splosion_bummerJun 10 17:24
DaemonFCdmesg | tailJun 10 17:24
DaemonFCcdrom: This disc doesn't have any tracks I recognize!Jun 10 17:24
DaemonFCudf: udf_read_inode(ino 1569439) failed !bhJun 10 17:24
DaemonFCudf: udf_read_inode(ino 1569439) failed !bhJun 10 17:24
DaemonFCUDF-fs: No partition found (1)Jun 10 17:24
DaemonFCudf: udf_read_inode(ino 1569439) failed !bhJun 10 17:24
DaemonFCudf: udf_read_inode(ino 1569439) failed !bhJun 10 17:24
DaemonFCUDF-fs: No partition found (1)Jun 10 17:24
DaemonFCudf: udf_read_inode(ino 1569439) failed !bhJun 10 17:24
DaemonFCudf: udf_read_inode(ino 1569439) failed !bhJun 10 17:24
DaemonFCUDF-fs: No partition found (1)Jun 10 17:24
_Mutex_its a non-issue, just burn a new one, and dont use the Windows burner and it will be fine, problem solved.Jun 10 17:24
_Hicham_I think there is a solution to ur problemJun 10 17:25
DaemonFCso it looks like Vista is burning DVDs that only it can understandJun 10 17:25
_Mutex_there is, what i said LOLJun 10 17:25
DaemonFCand not even XP can make sense of themJun 10 17:25
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DaemonFCit wouldn't be the first time Microsoft has artificaially crippled older versions of WindowsJun 10 17:25
_Mutex_here this, the WINDOWS burner software does not work all the time, 3rd party S/W like burn4free seem to work far betterJun 10 17:26
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DaemonFCI'll just use an RW disc and XP's ExplorerJun 10 17:26
_Mutex_well dont whine about it, use something else, you now know what to doJun 10 17:26
DaemonFCit's never given me any trouble like this when reading the discs on LinuxJun 10 17:26
trmanco"Contributor: IntelJun 10 17:27
trmancoSome parts of the kernel boot process can delay the whole process too many time (by kernel's standards): scanning in search of storage devices for a given controller, and searching for partitions, for example, can be slow, because the scanning is synchronous, only one device is scanned at a time, and the kernel has to wait for the devices. With this feature, those steps are done asyncrhonously, so the kernel can keep booting the rest of the kerneJun 10 17:27
trmancol while the storage devices are scanned in parallel. This feature speeds up the total kernel boot time significantly "Jun 10 17:27
_Hicham_no, look at this page : 10 17:27
_Mutex_ive got piles of bad burns before i worked it out, now i dont get ANY EVER... 100% work everywhere for free tooJun 10 17:27
trmanco 10 17:27
_Hicham_the problem is with the udf driver versionJun 10 17:27
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splosion_Daemon: I've had this problem before. I had to mount the disc and specifify the last block or something.Jun 10 17:27
_Hicham_follow this tutoJun 10 17:28
trmanco;a=blob;f=kernel/async.c;h=f565891f2c9bd069873b93c12e7ecb0424876c90;hb=5d80f8e5a9dc9c9a94d4aeaa567e219a808b8a4aJun 10 17:28
trmancomiracle source file, I bet fedora and ubuntu are going to love thisJun 10 17:29
_Hicham_DaemonFC : where are u?Jun 10 17:30
_Hicham_still encoding/decoding?Jun 10 17:30
DaemonFCtrying to unfuck the nasty surprise Vista left meJun 10 17:30
_Hicham_did u try DumpHD?Jun 10 17:30
_Hicham_or just finding the udf version?Jun 10 17:31
_Hicham_u r a drm loverJun 10 17:31
_Hicham_that is how u got things from VistaJun 10 17:31
_Hicham_u Vista loverJun 10 17:31
DaemonFCit's not my fault Linux is incompatibleJun 10 17:32
_Hicham_it is not incompatibleJun 10 17:32
_Hicham_it is illegalJun 10 17:32
_Hicham_there is a differenceJun 10 17:32
_Hicham_and u r stubbornJun 10 17:33
_Hicham_I already explainedJun 10 17:33
_Hicham_but u don't wanna hearJun 10 17:33
_Hicham_I thought u were smartJun 10 17:33
_Hicham_but I am deceivedJun 10 17:33
DaemonFCI know what it is, Microsoft knows that all they have to do is tweak the standard a little bit and the Linux people will stand there and tell you they don't support adding two lines of code to make it workJun 10 17:34
DaemonFCcause it's non-standardJun 10 17:34
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splosion_OK. Prepared to try one last crazy command, Daemon?Jun 10 17:35
DaemonFCthe funny thing is they don't even have to sabotage it much, they just let swollen egos do the heavy lifting for themJun 10 17:35
DaemonFCsueJun 10 17:35
DaemonFC*sureJun 10 17:35
splosion_mount /dev/sr0 /media/dvd -s -t udf -o ro,user,noauto,exec,umask=0,session=0,lastblock=$(wodim dev='/dev/sr0' -toc | grep 'lout lba' | awk '{ print $3 } ')Jun 10 17:35
_Hicham_ok, big tweakerJun 10 17:36
splosion_The wodim command here [ wodim dev='/dev/sr0' -toc | grep 'lout lba' | awk '{ print $3 }' ] --- should give the final block of the disc. The rest of the command mounts and manually sets the last block.Jun 10 17:37
DaemonFCErrno: 5 (Input/output error), read toc scsi sendcmd: no errorJun 10 17:37
DaemonFCCDB:  43 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 04 00Jun 10 17:37
DaemonFCstatus: 0x2 (CHECK CONDITION)Jun 10 17:37
DaemonFCSense Bytes: 70 00 05 00 00 00 00 0A 00 00 00 00 24 00 00 00Jun 10 17:37
DaemonFCSense Key: 0x5 Illegal Request, Segment 0Jun 10 17:37
DaemonFCSense Code: 0x24 Qual 0x00 (invalid field in cdb) Fru 0x0Jun 10 17:37
DaemonFCSense flags: Blk 0 (not valid)Jun 10 17:37
DaemonFCcmd finished after 0.001s timeout 40sJun 10 17:37
DaemonFCwodim: Cannot read TOC headerJun 10 17:37
DaemonFCwodim: Cannot read TOC/PMAJun 10 17:37
splosion_bummer!Jun 10 17:37
DaemonFCmount: mount point /media/dvd does not existJun 10 17:37
DaemonFCthe disc is fuckedJun 10 17:37
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DaemonFCthat's all it has to sayJun 10 17:38
BalrogDaemonFC: are you using cheap media?Jun 10 17:38
DaemonFCnoJun 10 17:38
Balrogor a cheap/old drive?Jun 10 17:38
DaemonFCSony DVD-RJun 10 17:38
DaemonFCnoJun 10 17:38
DaemonFCthe drive is goodJun 10 17:38
BalroghrrmJun 10 17:39
Balrogthat's oddJun 10 17:39
Balrognever seen such problemsJun 10 17:39
fewawhat did you burn it with?Jun 10 17:39
DaemonFCthe one that nothing can read?Jun 10 17:39
DaemonFCVista's Windows ExplorerJun 10 17:39
fewaI think ive had that before, then i just use nero or imgburnJun 10 17:39
DaemonFCI dumped the one that XP can read onto the discJun 10 17:40
DaemonFCand I'm having ImgBurn write a new DVDJun 10 17:40
DaemonFC*diskJun 10 17:40
fewawindows explorer is broken cause it copies every fileJun 10 17:41
DaemonFCyeah, so you can drag and drop stuffJun 10 17:41
DaemonFCthen it closes the disc when you hit the eject buttonJun 10 17:41
fewait could just keep reference to the filesJun 10 17:41
_Hicham_DaemonFC : can u try IsoBuster with wine?Jun 10 17:41
fewait doesnt need to unneccicarily copy themJun 10 17:41
_Hicham_DaemonFC : move ur assJun 10 17:43
DaemonFCand Ustream won't work with FedoraJun 10 17:45
*edgedweller001 is now known as neighborleeJun 10 17:46
_Hicham_Ustream?Jun 10 17:47
DaemonFC 10 17:47
fewaDaemonFC, perhaps firefox beta bugJun 10 17:47
DaemonFChmmmJun 10 17:48
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DaemonFCworks partially on Ubuntu, you have to fuck around with Pulseaudio to get it to see your micJun 10 17:48
fewafirefox and flash work identical across platforms, as far as ive seenJun 10 17:48
DaemonFChey heyJun 10 17:48
DaemonFCit sees the disc XP wroteJun 10 17:48
splosion_ Oh God yesJun 10 17:49
neighborleeDaemonFC, its not just you..3beta4 is not terribly reliable..Jun 10 17:50
DaemonFCso the final release should work again?Jun 10 17:50
neighborleeI cant view BN       site without horrible laggying if I try to 'scroll' page..using konqueror its totally fineJun 10 17:50
neighborleeI have final release and its still using 3beta4 :(Jun 10 17:51
neighborleethough im not ;)Jun 10 17:51
schestowitzneighborlee: yes, I heardJun 10 17:51
schestowitzFedora 3.5?Jun 10 17:51
schestowitz*FirefoxJun 10 17:51
schestowitzIs it scrolling poorly?Jun 10 17:52
neighborleereally badJun 10 17:52
neighborleesorry yes..3.5b4Jun 10 17:52
schestowitz<edgedweller001> there is something     sluggish going on at BN..I cant scroll without computer getting very sluggish..ive only ever seen it at places like gamespot or IGN or such...Jun 10 17:52
schestowitz<edgedweller001> ok well..its only happening in firefox 3beta4 I guess..konqueror seems to be fineJun 10 17:52
schestowitz<edgedweller001> dain fedora anyway and their 'testing'    beta releases of firefox o_0 ;)Jun 10 17:52
neighborleesorry yes..3.5b4Jun 10 17:52
schestowitz3.5.Jun 10 17:52
schestowitzDid you change nicks?Jun 10 17:52
schestowitzOdd.Jun 10 17:53
neighborleeROFLJun 10 17:53
neighborleenot quick in the am I see <grins>Jun 10 17:53
schestowitzI wish I knew what causes this in FFJun 10 17:53
schestowitzDo you use COmpiz?Jun 10 17:53
neighborleeI doJun 10 17:53
schestowitzCause _Hicham_ had the same problemJun 10 17:53
neighborleewell I do now..I wasnt' 15 minutes agoJun 10 17:53
schestowitzMozilla says it's Compiz relatedJun 10 17:53
neighborleewell its notJun 10 17:53
neighborleekonqueror is working fine here..with compitzJun 10 17:53
schestowitzSo it was the same without, I see....Jun 10 17:53
neighborleecompizJun 10 17:54
schestowitzWas it not working in 3.5 without COmpiz?Jun 10 17:54
neighborleeyeah same both waysJun 10 17:54
schestowitzLet me try itJun 10 17:54
neighborleefirefox is a mess even in windowsJun 10 17:54
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schestowitzI have both versionsJun 10 17:54
neighborleewell to be issues are at least in part due to isnt terribly effiicient apparantly ;)Jun 10 17:54
neighborleekJun 10 17:54
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[trmanco] ♺ @wordpresspt: RT @wpfreelance: #Wordpress 2.8 due in hours. Get ready to rock'n'roll.Jun 10 17:55
schestowitzDarnJun 10 17:55
DaemonFCso what happened to the 32-bit libs for Nvidia?Jun 10 17:55
schestowitzI hate updatingJun 10 17:55
DaemonFCon RPM Fusion?Jun 10 17:55
neighborleewell also..I was having really slow web surfing in fedora 11..until I emoved ipv6 support in browser via::: about:configJun 10 17:56
neighborleewhey do they enable that out of box anyone know ? ;)Jun 10 17:56
DaemonFCcauseJun 10 17:56
DaemonFCit's "advanced" :PJun 10 17:56
DaemonFCwhy does Vista enable it?Jun 10 17:57
neighborleelolJun 10 17:57
DaemonFCWhy does Ubuntu force it?Jun 10 17:57
DaemonFC:)Jun 10 17:57
neighborleeif they do..I guess they do it rightJun 10 17:57
neighborleeo_0Jun 10 17:57
DaemonFCyou have to recompile the kernel in UbuntuJun 10 17:57
neighborleeto remove it ???Jun 10 17:57
DaemonFCto turn off ipv6or make it a module you can disable/enable on the flyJun 10 17:57
DaemonFCotherwise it's compiled into the kernelJun 10 17:57
DaemonFCand you can't shut it downJun 10 17:57
neighborleeits already offJun 10 17:57
neighborleevia about:configJun 10 17:57
neighborleesupposedly..according to forum info anyway o_0Jun 10 17:58
DaemonFCno, I'm talking about the kernel levelJun 10 17:58
DaemonFCUbuntu forces it on youJun 10 17:58
neighborleeoh -Jun 10 17:58
neighborleeICKJun 10 17:58
neighborleethats-=weirdJun 10 17:58
neighborlee1 more reason not to use it apparantlyJun 10 17:59
schestowitzneighborlee: same as the last time hereJun 10 17:59
schestowitzBN scrolls OKJun 10 18:00
schestowitzBut is painfulllt laggy in scrollingJun 10 18:00
neighborlee3.5b4 ?Jun 10 18:00
_Hicham_it is a firefox only issueJun 10 18:00
neighborleehmmJun 10 18:00
_Hicham_epiphany works fineJun 10 18:00
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] Microsoft Colonisation in Thailand and Peru 10 18:00
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[trmanco] Alguem sabe a tradução para PT de "flushing"??Jun 10 18:00
_Hicham_chromium works greatJun 10 18:00
schestowitzYesJun 10 18:00
schestowitzb4Jun 10 18:00
DaemonFC 10 18:00
splosion_Heh. Looking at the ODF wiki history. Getting Weir'd, Growlaw'd, BN'd AND Slashdotted seems to be improving things somewhatJun 10 18:00
DaemonFCAt least these work :PJun 10 18:00
_Hicham_it is a bug in firefoxJun 10 18:01
schestowitz_Hicham_: when FF is released we'll need to work around itJun 10 18:01
schestowitzLike 66% of the visitors use FirefoxJun 10 18:01
schestowitz3.0 for the most partJun 10 18:01
DaemonFCis the Ustream breakage Firefox?Jun 10 18:01
DaemonFCor a Fedora problem?Jun 10 18:01
_Hicham_i had to manually remove transparent backgournd images from BNJun 10 18:01
_Hicham_using custom css fileJun 10 18:02
neighborleeI think its  rather sure its also a windows OS have to check to be sureJun 10 18:02
_Hicham_which fixed the problemJun 10 18:02
*DaemonFC goes to grab the Opera 10 beta RPMJun 10 18:02
_Hicham_seems that firefox is using some acceleration methodJun 10 18:02
_Hicham_which doesn't take advantage of the GPUJun 10 18:02
_Hicham_Firefox 3.0.10 was perfect in this regardJun 10 18:03
schestowitzSomeone just mailed me this: "The error speaks for itself: Actually both errors.  The error explicitly described in the message above and the implicit error of trying to still use Windows in 2009. It's hard to say which category that user fits into: doesn't know about computers, doesn't care about computers, or is wanting to exploit the first two groups."Jun 10 18:04
_Hicham_really responsive scrollingJun 10 18:04
neighborlee_Hicham_, its many other websites too not just bnJun 10 18:05
schestowitzneighborlee: yes, please checkJun 10 18:05
neighborleek npJun 10 18:05
neighborleebrbJun 10 18:05
schestowitzThat would help me know what the issue may beJun 10 18:05
DaemonFCUstream simply freezes OperaJun 10 18:05
*neighborlee has quit ("Leaving")Jun 10 18:05
schestowitzAnd not just an X problemJun 10 18:05
_Hicham_Transparent background images schestowitzJun 10 18:05
_Hicham_as alwaysJun 10 18:05
DaemonFCanyway, an excuse to test Firefox on Linux vs on VistaJun 10 18:06
DaemonFCrunning it through PeacekeeperJun 10 18:07
_Hicham_here is the content of my my userContent.cssJun 10 18:07
_Hicham_@-moz-document domain( 10 18:07
_Hicham_{Jun 10 18:07
_Hicham_*Jun 10 18:07
_Hicham_{Jun 10 18:07
_Hicham_background-image : none !important;Jun 10 18:07
_Hicham_}Jun 10 18:07
_Hicham_}Jun 10 18:07
DaemonFCschestowitz: F11 is still loading TomboyJun 10 18:07
DaemonFCper defaultJun 10 18:07
_Hicham_this should be done as a temporary workaround for website that use transparent background imagesJun 10 18:08
_Hicham_until the issue get fixed upstreamJun 10 18:08
DaemonFCcanvas graphics appear to be faster on Firefox for LinuxJun 10 18:09
_Hicham_Mozilla is aware of thisJun 10 18:09
_Hicham_maybe they should work with Chromium?Jun 10 18:09
schestowitzDaemonFC: maybe the full DVD/CDJun 10 18:09
schestowitzBut ot's F11Jun 10 18:09
schestowitzNot F12Jun 10 18:09
*neighborlee ( has joined #boycottnovellJun 10 18:09
schestowitzIt's F12 when gnote comes inJun 10 18:09
neighborleeschestowitz, beta issue I guess..3.0.10 in windows is fine for BNJun 10 18:10
_Hicham_on the live cd , there is no tomboyJun 10 18:10
DaemonFCyeah, citing lack of spaceJun 10 18:10
schestowitz_Hicham_: other Web site with same issue?Jun 10 18:10
schestowitz*sitesJun 10 18:10
_Hicham_yesJun 10 18:10
_Hicham_a lot of sitesJun 10 18:10
_Hicham_not only yoursJun 10 18:10
schestowitzneighborlee: 3.0.10?Jun 10 18:10
neighborlee_Hicham_, yesJun 10 18:11
schestowitzWe talk about 3.5 thoughJun 10 18:11
neighborleeIGN is still slowJun 10 18:11
schestowitzOK, goodJun 10 18:11
neighborleeI noted that its likely the betaJun 10 18:11
schestowitzThis means they'll get flack and pressrJun 10 18:11
neighborleeI canrt find beta for windowsJun 10 18:11
neighborlee..can'tJun 10 18:11
schestowitzSo they need to tweak soemthingJun 10 18:11
neighborleeno doubtJun 10 18:11
schestowitzWindows is obscureJun 10 18:11
DaemonFCFirefox on Windows is almost a third fasterJun 10 18:11
neighborleelolJun 10 18:11
schestowitzMaybe they'll release of it eventuallyJun 10 18:11
schestowitzLike OracleJun 10 18:11
schestowitzLinux first, Windows laterJun 10 18:12
neighborleehehJun 10 18:12
splosion_How many people browse BN with IE 6, btw?Jun 10 18:12
DaemonFCFirefox 3.5b4 on Vista scored 1642, Firefox 3.5b4 on Fedora 11 X86-64 scored 1081Jun 10 18:12
DaemonFCsame machineJun 10 18:12
schestowitzWTF? "Oliver Bell (osrin) is now following your updates on Twitter."Jun 10 18:12
schestowitzIt's a Microsoft managerJun 10 18:13
DaemonFCblack helicopters are now following youJun 10 18:13
DaemonFCon TwitterJun 10 18:13
DaemonFC:PJun 10 18:13
schestowitzsplosion_: haven't checked in ages. Maybe 5%Jun 10 18:13
_Hicham_Firefox Fedora have some debugging infoJun 10 18:13
schestowitzIE is about 12% at mostJun 10 18:13
_Hicham_that is why it is slowerJun 10 18:13
splosion_makes senseJun 10 18:13
neighborleeDaemonFC, gezJun 10 18:13
schestowitzDaemonFC: he's in OOXMLJun 10 18:13
schestowitzSo he'll track me, I guessJun 10 18:14
DaemonFCcan't you block him from following you?Jun 10 18:14
schestowitzNopeJun 10 18:14
schestowitzI know about himJun 10 18:14
schestowitzOver a year ago he asked about meJun 10 18:14
schestowitzOver dinner in MalaysiaJun 10 18:14
DaemonFCso does anyone know where the 32-bit libraries are for Nvidia?Jun 10 18:15
splosion_Well, you were writing about the Wikipedia stuff before it all blew up today. Maybe he wants to have some warning next time :PJun 10 18:15
neighborleehmmmm maybe its not upstream o_0Jun 10 18:15
*DaemonFC goes to find his Doom 3 to see if they just include those libs in the main driver pack nowJun 10 18:15
schestowitzMS: “Gathering intelligence on enemy activities is critical to the success of the Slog.” 10 18:15
schestowitzsplosion_: yes, it came from BNJun 10 18:15
neighborleeschestowitz, 3.5b here in <GASP: vista sp1>,is  NOT displaying the horrible slow scrolling..not atm  at least..let me enable aero and see what happens o-)Jun 10 18:16
schestowitzI did like 5 posts detailing the editsJun 10 18:16
schestowitzIt was in Planet ODFJun 10 18:16
schestowitzAnd IBM reads BNJun 10 18:16
neighborleeschestowitz, it slows  down a TAD more..but nothing at all like fedoraJun 10 18:16
schestowitzAerrrorJun 10 18:16
schestowitzDman.Jun 10 18:17
schestowitzMaybe we'll just change BGJun 10 18:17
DaemonFCI see Fedora still has problems ejecting discsJun 10 18:17
DaemonFCsometimes you have to use su -c 'eject'Jun 10 18:17
neighborleeouchJun 10 18:17
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neighborleeI didn't try that I should and will when I get back into fedoraJun 10 18:17
schestowitzOKJun 10 18:18
schestowitzIt would be annoying to change the whole theme in preparation for some browser version.Jun 10 18:18
neighborlee:)Jun 10 18:18
_Hicham_schestowitz : u don't have toJun 10 18:19
schestowitzQue?Jun 10 18:19
_Hicham_to change the whole themeJun 10 18:20
splosion_There's a minimalist version of the BN theme 10 18:20
schestowitzThis is probably good for Linux (Apple stays with a poor FS): 10 18:21
EDavidBurgschestowitz: 10.6 server has ZFS read/write supportJun 10 18:25
EDavidBurg10.5 did too, I'm pretty sureJun 10 18:25
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] Webhost denies poor passwords led to catastrophic hack 10 18:25
EDavidBurgI've never had any issues with HFS+, but I'm not an FS geek, so I'm sure there are a thousand reasons someone could give me to not like it and I'd just have to trust their wordJun 10 18:26
_Hicham_schestowitz : firefox 3.6 doesn't have the issueJun 10 18:26
_Hicham_I just checkedJun 10 18:27
EDavidBurgreally the only problem I've had is that windows HFS+ support sucks unless you pay, and linux's is unreliable and only works if you disable journalingJun 10 18:27
EDavidBurgbut OS X is the same way with ext3/4Jun 10 18:28
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schestowitzLinux gets new FSsJun 10 18:29
schestowitz2.6.30 is coming any day now too. btrfs and ext34 still there.Jun 10 18:30
schestowitz*4Jun 10 18:30
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] This afternoon boycottnovell got its 20,000th commentJun 10 18:30
_Mutex_BZ BN !!!Jun 10 18:31
schestowitz "In a separate development, The Times of India reports that the founder of Lxlabs, K T Ligesh, was found dead at his home after hanging himself. It is not known whether Ligesh's death is in any way related to the attacks on HyperVM and Kloxo, or what the future for Lxlabs may be."Jun 10 18:37
schestowitzNot a very " separate development"Jun 10 18:37
schestowitzRelated to the crackJun 10 18:37
schestowitzWe get about 1 comment per 1000 pageviews. Normal ratioJun 10 18:38
_Mutex_it's beyond me why anyone would take their own life, especially for something like software, or money, always seems like a waiste of talentJun 10 18:41
schestowitzyeah, waste of good bodyJun 10 18:44
schestowitzA lot of people kill themselves over psychologica stressJun 10 18:44
schestowitzWhereas others with tormenting disability or injury are lodging to stay aliveJun 10 18:44
splosion_Hah. From the Groklaw thread about ODF. "Saturate; diffuse; confuse."Jun 10 18:44
schestowitzWhere?Jun 10 18:44
schestowitzI heard that befgoreJun 10 18:44
schestowitzA friend of mine uses the term. Maybe it's a common oneJun 10 18:44
splosion_ 10 18:45
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] The kernel foundation[sic] speaks to Sutor of ODF fame: 10 18:45
*neighborlee has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer))Jun 10 18:45
schestowitzEdit stuff, walk away, come back later, remove some other stuff, profit!Jun 10 18:45
schestowitzAnd they get paidJun 10 18:46
schestowitzNot directlyJun 10 18:46
schestowitzThe MicroTurfs get OOXML-related contractsJun 10 18:46
*_Goblin ( has joined #boycottnovellJun 10 18:47
_Goblinevening allJun 10 18:47
schestowitzThe INQ is dyingJun 10 18:49
schestowitzCharlie has already moved to his own siteJun 10 18:49
schestowitzWhich he launched days agoJun 10 18:49
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] Here is why The Inquirer has been quiet/sporadic recently. It's coming apart. 10 18:50
schestowitzAMD takes Intel market share  < >Jun 10 18:51
_Mutex_AMD's recent release of CPU's and the anti-compet are paying offJun 10 18:51
schestowitzRightly but not enough nowJun 10 18:52
schestowitzIntel will never be properly punished. Like MS, it proved crimes pays.Jun 10 18:52
schestowitz*rimeJun 10 18:52
_Mutex_I cant comment ive not looked at any comparisons recently,Jun 10 18:52
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] Nick Farrell, another key INQ writer, started writing elsewhere and Charlie started his own site. Et tu, INQ?Jun 10 18:55
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] The Asay idiocy continues when he uses Linux releases to blindly promote Macs 10 18:55
schestowitzheh. 10 18:57
schestowitzIs this Groklaw or an imposter? 10 18:59
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] ITWire underwent some serious staff changes too. Maybe it's time to unsubscribe..Jun 10 19:00
fewaHAl was blocked for edit warringJun 10 19:01
splosion_hahJun 10 19:01
fewa 10 19:02
fewa 10 19:03
fewawow, it happenedJun 10 19:04
schestowitzAlex Brown mentions us and takes a shot at Weir: Typical MS... ASPX evenJun 10 19:07
splosion_Nice. Kicking up a stink.Jun 10 19:07
fewayepJun 10 19:07
schestowitzFinallyJun 10 19:07
schestowitzI only saw few photos of the hAl shill, but I hate his guts without meeting hisJun 10 19:08
schestowitzOthers do tooJun 10 19:08
schestowitzNot just ODF folksJun 10 19:08
schestowitzNot to worry.  MS will set him up with some honeypot IP promptlyJun 10 19:08
schestowitzHigh Netbook Return Rate? Windows Is the Problem 10 19:09
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] Microsoft breaks another record: 10 19:10
schestowitzCongress Considers Partially Removing Tax Exemption On Employer Provided Health Benefits < >Jun 10 19:11
fewalol @ reagenJun 10 19:12
fewa*reaganJun 10 19:12
schestowitzReaganitesJun 10 19:12
fewabut they are attacking people who support a old Reagan policyJun 10 19:13
fewaits called idolotry to the point of revisionismJun 10 19:13
schestowitzDid you hear last year about the Russian submarine story?Jun 10 19:14
schestowitzThe press didn't cover itJun 10 19:14
fewalink plsJun 10 19:14
schestowitzIt's probably one of the most important events of the second part of the 20th centuryJun 10 19:14
schestowitzHold on..Jun 10 19:14
fewaohh the north atlantic one?Jun 10 19:14
_Mutex_is that the one with the fly screens ??Jun 10 19:14
fewathe flagJun 10 19:14
schestowitzAs I said, it's scarcely coveredJun 10 19:14
fewaflag on the bottom of the artic ocean?Jun 10 19:14
_Goblingood link Roy...Im currently writing my "On Holiday with XP" article for my week of experiences....Jun 10 19:15
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] Obama.. No Release of Transcripts for Destroyed "Torture Video" Tapes < >Jun 10 19:15
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] hAl (Albert) has been banned from Wikipedia for shilling for Microsoft. Long overdue.Jun 10 19:15
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] Some criminal(ish) company is preparing to destroy Twitter: 10 19:15
schestowitzdman, I can hadly find itJun 10 19:16
schestowitzfewa: not that..Jun 10 19:17
schestowitzfewa: sorry, I can't find itJun 10 19:18
schestowitzSeen lots about it yesterdayJun 10 19:18
schestowitzI could only find this old one now.. [video] 10 19:18
schestowitzLawyers plan class-action to reclaim "$100M+" RIAA "stole" < >Jun 10 19:20
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[_goblin] @schestowitz LOL...First of many I hope!Jun 10 19:20
schestowitzBee Gees singer lends voice to copyright fight < > Drama drama!Jun 10 19:20
schestowitzAP Reporter Reprimanded For Facebook Post; Union Protests < >Jun 10 19:21
schestowitzUbuntu Jaunty Jackalope on Dell XPS M1330 < >Jun 10 19:22
fewathis 10 19:23
fewa 10 19:23
_Mutex_Australian broadcasting exec sacked for allowing a comody skit to go to air,Jun 10 19:23
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] Government Motors sucks up government money, invests in @#$%^%$#$%^ 10 19:25
schestowitzfewa: "A Soviet submarine that was lost almost 70 years ago on a wartime mission against Finland has been discovered lying semi-intact on the floor of the Baltic Sea, its gun tower and broken hull visible in the gloom."Jun 10 19:25
schestowitzNot related t the missile crisisJun 10 19:25
schestowitz"Unlike the Germans, however, Stalin encountered unexpected resistance from the outnumbered Finns, who waged a successful guerrilla war against inexperienced Red Army troops, many of whose officers had been executed in purges. Finland signed a treaty with the Soviets in March 1940, ceding 9% of its territory."Jun 10 19:26
schestowitzStudents who went on strike over CCTVs in classroom speak < >Jun 10 19:27
schestowitzJudge: Media coverage depends on public access < >Jun 10 19:27
fewathis ?Jun 10 19:28
fewa"Russia doesn't want to go below 1,500 warheads"Jun 10 19:28
fewai cant seem to get itJun 10 19:28
_Mutex_the pirate bay judge was ruled unbiased in his ruling against TPBJun 10 19:28
schestowitzfewa: fair enoughJun 10 19:29
schestowitzThe other countries should cut down tooJun 10 19:29
schestowitzIt's like the emissions situationJun 10 19:29
fewaUS is a giant hipicrit on nuclear stuffJun 10 19:29
schestowitzNon proliferation treaty is not being honouredJun 10 19:30
fewahypocriteJun 10 19:30
schestowitzThe US doesn't care about international laws, so why should other countries?Jun 10 19:30
schestowitzfewa: trust the USJun 10 19:30
schestowitzThey know.Jun 10 19:30
schestowitzThey never invaded countries unless it was for the benefit of the people... oh, waitJun 10 19:30
fewa:PJun 10 19:30
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] Sweden says it's OK for the judge to be in the pocket of the plaintiff 10 19:30
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[astralknight] Another critical hole in low quality Microsoft Excel: 10 19:30
fewaI live in the USJun 10 19:30
schestowitzThey should teach this in school... history lessonsJun 10 19:31
schestowitzEach country teaches its own 'approved' version of historyJun 10 19:31
_Mutex_and they win every war they fight .... oh, wait againJun 10 19:31
schestowitzFor example:Jun 10 19:31
schestowitzThe slaves are always "happy yo help us out"Jun 10 19:31
_Mutex_japanJun 10 19:31
schestowitzWars are always needed because they are the "bad guys"Jun 10 19:32
schestowitz"Japen was with the Nazis"Jun 10 19:32
fewayeah thats a good oneJun 10 19:32
schestowitzJapan was a threat to the existence of the USJun 10 19:32
schestowitzLike granada :-)Jun 10 19:32
schestowitzOr Nicaragua!Jun 10 19:32
_Mutex_but their war history they used to teach was far from what really happendJun 10 19:32
fewathe big thing i hated about my history in school is they treated President Wilson as a moral heroJun 10 19:32
schestowitzOr, well... Pearl haborJun 10 19:32
schestowitz*rJun 10 19:33
fewawhen he was a racist fuckJun 10 19:33
schestowitzIt's OKJun 10 19:33
splosion_Good ol US. Nixon orders the bombing of Cambodia that kills hundreds of thousands of innocent people. The reaction: "Why didn't you tell Congress? Tsk." A couple of goons working for Nixon steal a few documents. Reaction? "HOLY SHIT IMPEACH HIM!!!1"Jun 10 19:33
schestowitzIt encourages loyalyJun 10 19:33
schestowitzLike many other useful illusionsJun 10 19:33
schestowitzThey make UsefulIdiotsJun 10 19:33
fewayou have to read the japaneese history books to see how Wilson crushed asian-tolerance votesJun 10 19:33
fewafunny then, even japan was talking about toleranceJun 10 19:34
schestowitzYou don't want bitter 10 y-os who look at shame at some ancestral beggageJun 10 19:34
schestowitz*baggageJun 10 19:34
schestowitzAmerican-Japenese were put behind bars without charges IIRCJun 10 19:34
schestowitzBecause they were "yellow" or "them"Jun 10 19:34
fewaschestowitz, do you fallow David Suzuki?Jun 10 19:35
_Mutex_they were encamped here in aus tooJun 10 19:35
schestowitz*LOL* Newspapers' Plan For Survival: Charge Money, Beat Up On Craigslist And Keep Repeating To Ourselves That We're Needed < >Jun 10 19:35
fewahe wrote about it in his autobiographyJun 10 19:35
schestowitzfewa: nope, not reallyJun 10 19:36
fewagreat biologist, has a show, The Nature of Things, on scienceJun 10 19:36
fewaone of the few shows run by a reasearch scientistJun 10 19:36
*schestowitz reads 10 19:36
schestowitzOh.Jun 10 19:36
schestowitzI know himJun 10 19:36
_Mutex_I think he's a genitisists ?Jun 10 19:36
_Mutex_not sureJun 10 19:36
splosion_I loved Crosbie Fitch's take on the newspaper problem. "Journalism isn't dead; newspapers are," (not a quote, just the jist).Jun 10 19:37
fewa_Mutex_, yesJun 10 19:37
schestowitzDidn't know he spoke politicsJun 10 19:37
schestowitzIt's verbotenJun 10 19:37
schestowitzFor people on TVJun 10 19:37
schestowitzsplosion_: yes, the whole model is kaputJun 10 19:37
schestowitzJust watch what happened to shoemakersJun 10 19:38
schestowitzOr people who sell licensed to run some binaries (not dead, yet)Jun 10 19:38
schestowitz*cesJun 10 19:38
EDavidBurgschestowitz: you must spend a lot of time reading tech news sites :)Jun 10 19:39
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schestowitzEDavidBurg: yes, for nowJun 10 19:40
_Mutex_I liked ITWires post aobut the space ship going to crash into the moon on the 10th, trouble is they posted it on the 11th !!!Jun 10 19:40
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[_goblin] RT @AstralKnight Another critical hole in low quality Microsoft Excel: 10 19:40
schestowitzEDavidBurg: I finished writing my PhD thesis in 2006, but there are ways of dragging itJun 10 19:41
schestowitzYahoo is chopped liver... 10 19:42
EDavidBurgwhat's the PhD in?Jun 10 19:42
fewaschestowitz, they do well in japanJun 10 19:42
fewagoogle cant budge yahoo in japanJun 10 19:42
schestowitzEDavidBurg: biomedical biophysicsJun 10 19:43
splosion_One good way to look at dying business models is to think if they didn't exist at all first. We have online news sites; do you think newspapers would take off? We have free and open source software; do you think paid software would be successful?Jun 10 19:43
schestowitzI got it hard bound todayJun 10 19:43
schestowitzFInal final deadline :-)Jun 10 19:43
schestowitzThey put the golden letting there with a typo of my surname!Jun 10 19:43
splosion_hahaJun 10 19:43
schestowitzThey had to redo it (their mistake, not mine)Jun 10 19:43
schestowitzI have two trophies with my name carved on them with typos tooJun 10 19:43
splosion_Your name is notoriously hard to spellJun 10 19:44
schestowitz 10 19:44
_Mutex_and expensive on a trophieJun 10 19:45
schestowitzCan't rip and replaceJun 10 19:45
amd-linuxfor Germans, no problem to spell :-)Jun 10 19:46
_Mutex_PHILLIPS changed their name to PHILIPS to save on L'sJun 10 19:46
splosion_just run sed -e 's#Schiztowitz#Schestowitz#' on the trophies. Problem solvedJun 10 19:47
schestowitzI always wonder about PHILIPSJun 10 19:47
schestowitzCause some people still spell it the old nameJun 10 19:47
schestowitz /name/way/Jun 10 19:47
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splosion_My name is Philip. One L. The forms of ID I have seem to be confused about that, thoughJun 10 19:48
schestowitzsplosion_: c'mon, why add that lame linsux humourJun 10 19:48
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schestowitzPhilips must be like 150- years oldJun 10 19:49
schestowitzWithout Philips unemployment would be a lot higher in HollandJun 10 19:49
splosion_ Check out the latest commentJun 10 19:50
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] This is so weird. Microsoft's pet is putting money in a Linux distro, essentially. 10 19:50
splosion_"I have now discovered that the above claims stem from article by IBM's Rob Weir (a blog cited regularly on openDocument article) and Groklaw (a blog with an entire section devoted to anti Office Open XML information). Apperantly this is an effort by someone in IBM (talking about biased) to influence edits on Wikipedia."Jun 10 19:50
fewathats what they did last timeJun 10 19:51
fewathey just blamed that IBM did it firstJun 10 19:51
splosion_"A renowed anti-MS blog trying to remove wikipedians who edit MS related article because they do not like the information on wikipedia. Groklaw even suggest that ISO/IEC experts on documents formats are removed from editing wikipedia. How nice. The conflict of interest is now visible."Jun 10 19:51
splosion_Just boggles my mindJun 10 19:51
schestowitzMS said Groklaw was an IBM  siteJun 10 19:52
_Mutex_slippery slope when you start to pick and choose who is allowed to give expert advice, and no i dont agree with incorrect info, but thats the problem with WikiJun 10 19:53
splosion_Cory Doctorow got into all sorts of trouble when he removed claims that his books didn't make any money.Jun 10 19:54
schestowitzWHy did he care?Jun 10 19:55
schestowitzif he made money, why is it important for him to crow about it as though perhaps he's promoting CCJun 10 19:56
splosion_The claims in general were along the lines that giving away content for free is a doomed venture and anyone who does it is therefore a fool. they were quite trolly.Jun 10 19:57
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DaemonFC 10 19:58
DaemonFCNetbook shipments are up "in the triple-digit percentiles" over a year ago, said Brian Davis, vice-president of client systems for Tech Data. But he said Tech Data has seen "almost no" demand for Linux netbooks.Jun 10 19:58
DaemonFCAs a result, "we're not even sourcing any Linux-based netbooks anymore," Davis said.Jun 10 19:58
DaemonFCthe article goes on to cite that Carphone Warehouse (some company in the UK) has seen returns go as high as 1 in 5 units with Linux on themJun 10 19:59
*DaemonFC wonders what their Windows XP unit returns areJun 10 19:59
schestowitzThere's the NPD liarsJun 10 19:59
schestowitzMicrosoft commissions thoseJun 10 20:00
schestowitzAnd pressure on OEMsJun 10 20:00
schestowitzLike ASUSJun 10 20:00
schestowitzPays them for marketing, require that they drop and insult LinuxJun 10 20:00
DaemonFCI thought soJun 10 20:00
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] 'China's excuse for mandatory censorship software is "protecting children", just as in "free" countries.' 10 20:00
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] Google CEO on Microsoft Bing: 'They do this about once a year'Jun 10 20:00
schestowitzThey have not developerd it for YEARSJun 10 20:00
DaemonFCthere's no data comparing returns to WindowsJun 10 20:00
schestowitzASUS dropped the ballJun 10 20:00
DaemonFCso you have no idea, even if 1 in 5 is the truth, of where Windows stacks up to thatJun 10 20:00
schestowitzMicrosoft said in 2008... they had them "tied up"Jun 10 20:00
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schestowitzThis is stuff for the EU Commission t definitely look itJun 10 20:01
schestowitzIt's strangulation techniqueJun 10 20:01
schestowitzNopeJun 10 20:01
schestowitzDell says return rates are the same IIRCJun 10 20:01
schestowitzJust MSI stands outJun 10 20:01
schestowitzAnd there's the word from CanonicalJun 10 20:01
DaemonFCthe Windows netbook return rate could be that, or more, but they won't tell you how many people return those modelsJun 10 20:01
schestowitzReturn rates are not absolute/relative #s eitherJun 10 20:01
DaemonFCcould be hardware problemsJun 10 20:02
schestowitzAnd MSI's Linux (SUSE) sucked for the purposeJun 10 20:02
DaemonFCtotally unrelated to the OSJun 10 20:02
schestowitzThey just threw some SUSE on it... hrdly with patches... and says "there! here, we have Linux too"Jun 10 20:02
_Mutex_return them for what in exchange ?Jun 10 20:02
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DaemonFCwell, I was wondering why the hell they would put Suse Linux on something small and simple meant for non-technical usersJun 10 20:02
DaemonFCit did not make a lot of sense to meJun 10 20:03
DaemonFCSuse is like driving a tank, there's options to configure _everything_, which is not what you want for a desktop OSJun 10 20:03
DaemonFCmuch less for a netbook OSJun 10 20:03
schestowitzNew signs that Microsoft sees its business model (the profitable part) dying too. 10 20:03
mib_9xnybkI noticed that the front page of the Wall Street Journal mentioned an investigation of Google by the US justice department.  I wonder how much M$ is behind it.Jun 10 20:04
mib_9xnybki'm aeshna23, btw.Jun 10 20:04
*BRBT is now known as BalrogJun 10 20:04
mib_9xnybki just don't do chatrooms.Jun 10 20:04
DaemonFCGoogle should be investigated for some of the things it doesJun 10 20:05
schestowitzaeshna23, new invetigation?Jun 10 20:05
DaemonFCbut yeah, as long as Microsoft is getting away with what it is, it does make you wonderJun 10 20:05
schestowitzAny URL yet?Jun 10 20:05
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splosion_roy: I linked to that piece this morning!Jun 10 20:05
mib_9xnybkperhaps Google should be investigated.  I don't know if it was a new one, but it was on the front page.Jun 10 20:05
*Guest63515 is now known as Balrog_Jun 10 20:05
mib_9xnybkhow do i change my name?Jun 10 20:06
*Balrog_ is now known as Guest51031Jun 10 20:06
*Guest51031 is now known as BalrogJun 10 20:06
DaemonFCGoogle does pay companies to make sure they only default to Google searchJun 10 20:06
DaemonFCthey bribe Firefox with tens of millions of dollars for thatJun 10 20:06
splosion_mib_9xnybk: type this: "/nick newnickname"Jun 10 20:06
mib_9xnybkbut Firefox is glad for the bribe.Jun 10 20:06
DaemonFCand they do allow spyware makers to buy Google adwordsJun 10 20:07
*mib_9xnybk is now known as aeshna23Jun 10 20:07
DaemonFCthey should be investigated for both of those reasonsJun 10 20:07
aeshna23a Google monopoly is almost as worrisome as M$Jun 10 20:07
DaemonFCI think the FTC should force Google to investigate adword links that have been reported by users as spyware peddlersJun 10 20:08
DaemonFCin a timely fashionJun 10 20:08
DaemonFCand remove themJun 10 20:08
splosion_ Microsoft is bringing out its own Virus Scanner!Jun 10 20:08
DaemonFCit's just unreasonable that Google gets to sell those things to anyone at allJun 10 20:08
DaemonFCsplosion_: Yes, they're renaming Onecare to "Morro"Jun 10 20:08
DaemonFCand making it freewareJun 10 20:09
aeshna23big question:  What attacks a search engine monopoly like FOSS attacks M$?Jun 10 20:09
DaemonFCnothing so farJun 10 20:09
_Mutex_after this doco ive always had big doubts about google, 10 20:09
DaemonFCthe Open Directory Project was a total failureJun 10 20:09
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schestowitzDaemonFC: they should make it an offshootJun 10 20:09
_Mutex_a short clipJun 10 20:09
schestowitzCall it Morro Co.Jun 10 20:09
DaemonFCmostly because the web is growing faster than a group of humans can effectively index itJun 10 20:10
*mib_lwcvfl is now known as _Hicham_Jun 10 20:10
schestowitzSo basically, Morro is a paid-for missing feature of WindowsJun 10 20:10
DaemonFCschestowitz: I find it funny that the virus problem has gorwn so out of control that Microsoft has finally given Windows a self-defense mechanismJun 10 20:11
DaemonFCit's about time tooJun 10 20:11
DaemonFCbetween the antivirus cartelsJun 10 20:11
DaemonFCand the spyware peddlersJun 10 20:11
_Hicham_this self-defense mechanism have been developed by Sir DaemonFCJun 10 20:11
_Hicham_alias Windows MasterJun 10 20:11
DaemonFCbut then again, they could also use it as an excuse to remove things that the user wantsJun 10 20:11
DaemonFCthat they don't want the user to haveJun 10 20:12
_Hicham_example, non drm'ed mediaJun 10 20:12
schestowitzIck. Jim FinkleJun 10 20:12
DaemonFCsort ofJun 10 20:12
DaemonFClike if I have AnyDVD HD to strip the Mackeral-Vision off my discsJun 10 20:12
_Hicham_users are not allowed to have drm free mediaJun 10 20:12
DaemonFCthey could decide that they'll remove thatJun 10 20:12
_Hicham_that is rightJun 10 20:12
_Hicham_it is their right to do thatJun 10 20:13
DaemonFCbull fucking shit!Jun 10 20:13
_Hicham_welcome to drm eraJun 10 20:13
_Hicham_this will continueJun 10 20:13
_Hicham_and will never stopJun 10 20:13
_Hicham_u just have to make ur choiceJun 10 20:13
DaemonFCwell, Microsoft has hesitated to do things like this before, mainly because so many Windows users use stuff like thatJun 10 20:13
DaemonFCthey don't want to provoke millions of people into checking out Linux or a MacJun 10 20:14
_Hicham_but DaemonFC isn't a genuine Windows userJun 10 20:14
_Hicham_neither a Linux oneJun 10 20:14
DaemonFCor is he?Jun 10 20:14
aeshna23Mac is going to follow M$ lead on DRM.Jun 10 20:14
DaemonFCmuahahahahahaJun 10 20:14
_Hicham_so he is lost in betweenJun 10 20:14
_Hicham_schestowitz : I am on IE7, and I don't have any warningJun 10 20:15
MinceRaeshna23: you mean they're going to admit they've been supporting it all the time? :>Jun 10 20:15
DaemonFC_Hicham_: 10 20:16
schestowitzFor crying out load... no Windows???Jun 10 20:16
schestowitzDaemonFC is a forgerJun 10 20:16
schestowitz*loudJun 10 20:16
*DaemonFC is getting ready to build Linux 2.6.30 :PJun 10 20:16
splosion_ eh? Has anyone seen this?Jun 10 20:17
DaemonFCanyway, brbJun 10 20:17
DaemonFCand yesJun 10 20:17
_Hicham_schestowitz : what do u mean?Jun 10 20:17
*DaemonFC can build a kernelJun 10 20:17
schestowitzMandriva KDE looks a lot betterJun 10 20:17
*DaemonFC has quit (Remote closed the connection)Jun 10 20:17
*schestowitz loves QtJun 10 20:17
schestowitz_Hicham_: see the screenshotJun 10 20:17
schestowitzDamonFC crossed to the dark sideJun 10 20:18
schestowitz*DaeJun 10 20:18
splosion_ 10 20:18
_Hicham_which dark side?Jun 10 20:18
schestowitzNot Vista/Vista7Jun 10 20:18
_Hicham_schestowitz : did u test firefox 3.6?Jun 10 20:18
schestowitzNot yetJun 10 20:18
_Hicham_it doesn't have the scrolling issueJun 10 20:18
schestowitzThe press says nothing about itJun 10 20:19
schestowitzIt mentions 4.0Jun 10 20:19
_Hicham_here is the linkJun 10 20:19
schestowitzThis site posts a lot of silly things: Are Apple's Price Drops Aimed at Linux?  < >Jun 10 20:19
_Mutex_4.0 historically software version 4.0 has been a desaster :)Jun 10 20:20
_Hicham_schestowitz : 10 20:20
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] DRM wants to be in Linux (again): 10 20:20
_Hicham_I have tested itJun 10 20:20
_Hicham_no slow scrollingJun 10 20:20
_Hicham_so u can be happy about BNJun 10 20:20
_Hicham_IE behaves weird with mibbit ajax chat clientJun 10 20:21
EDavidBurgApple's price drops are aimed at people are poor and they still want businessJun 10 20:21
_Hicham_DaemonFC : did u succeed in mounting the udf volume under Fedora?Jun 10 20:22
schestowitz"Debra + Ian = Debian." Wasn't it Deborah or just Debbie?Jun 10 20:22
MinceRwhat have people who want business have to do with crApple? :>Jun 10 20:22
_Hicham_schestowitz : they are divorced nowJun 10 20:22
schestowitz_Mutex_: 6.0  too (Vista, not MSDOS)Jun 10 20:22
_Hicham_people who want serious business, must consult DaemonFCJun 10 20:23
schestowitz_Hicham_: IE is not a problemJun 10 20:23
_Hicham_he is an expert in financeJun 10 20:23
schestowitzFew people use itJun 10 20:23
schestowitzLike single-digit (percentile) some monthsJun 10 20:23
_Mutex_agree schestowitzJun 10 20:23
schestowitzThey get a message telling them to upgrade to LinuxJun 10 20:23
schestowitzIn all pagesJun 10 20:23
_Hicham_well, I don'tJun 10 20:23
schestowitzNo?Jun 10 20:24
_Hicham_noJun 10 20:24
schestowitzWhich version?Jun 10 20:24
_Hicham_IE7Jun 10 20:24
schestowitzSee page source Jun 10 20:24
_Hicham_okJun 10 20:24
schestowitzMaybe it's not compat with ie7+Jun 10 20:24
Balrog_Hicham_: AFAICT it's only IE6Jun 10 20:24
_Hicham_is it some javascript?Jun 10 20:24
schestowitz_Hicham_: since when are they divorced?Jun 10 20:24
schestowitzI heard a year ago that someone from a forum I'm in saw them in a restaurantJun 10 20:25
_Hicham_schestowitz : I don't know whenJun 10 20:25
Balrogif I change the user agent to IE6, the warnings appearJun 10 20:25
schestowitzMaybe she used DebianJun 10 20:25
_Hicham_but they are divorcedJun 10 20:25
schestowitzHe used UbuntuJun 10 20:25
_Hicham_for sureJun 10 20:25
schestowitzAnd then went to the sunJun 10 20:25
_Hicham_it is sadJun 10 20:25
_Hicham_the base couple for Debian is divorcedJun 10 20:25
schestowitzYeah, Debian was the seeds of a romantic stgoryJun 10 20:25
schestowitzNot anymoreJun 10 20:25
schestowitzMaybe the Deb cheated on the Ian or the Ian cheated on the DebJun 10 20:26
_Hicham_maybe he used rpmJun 10 20:26
schestowitzSlept with a Badger or a WathogJun 10 20:26
schestowitz*rthogJun 10 20:26
_Hicham_rpmian?Jun 10 20:26
schestowitz_Hicham_: yes, that would break the relationshipJun 10 20:26
schestowitzThey should have gone to alien for consultingJun 10 20:26
*Python132O has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer))Jun 10 20:27
schestowitzERROR: DEB-IAN, dpendency hell. Quitting. ERROR(99)Jun 10 20:27
_Hicham_they should consult DaemonFCJun 10 20:27
schestowitzNaaa.Jun 10 20:27
_Hicham_he can get them backJun 10 20:28
schestowitz.He'd probably lust for IanJun 10 20:28
schestowitz 10 20:29
schestowitzOpenSolaris might be at the end of the roadJun 10 20:29
_Hicham_of courseJun 10 20:30
schestowitzSo Murdock's job as CTO is at risk in OracleJun 10 20:30
_Hicham_since Oracle uses RHELJun 10 20:30
schestowitzYesJun 10 20:30
schestowitzWhich is betterJun 10 20:30
_Hicham_he will get back a new ProgenyJun 10 20:30
schestowitzNo point in Oracle paying devs to write SolarisJun 10 20:30
schestowitzMaybe merge itJun 10 20:30
_Hicham_and give Debian the power that it needsJun 10 20:30
schestowitzStill, leading to redundancyJun 10 20:30
_Hicham_giving a RedHat like model will boost itJun 10 20:31
_Hicham_i mean for DebianJun 10 20:31
_Hicham_a commercial branchJun 10 20:31
_Hicham_and an open source branchJun 10 20:31
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_Mutex_I dont know about solaris, i expect they will continue to support it, it has quite a large user base,Jun 10 20:33
schestowitz"Commercial" is advertisingJun 10 20:33
schestowitzIt's a perceptual labelJun 10 20:33
schestowitzVista RTM was called "commericial"Jun 10 20:33
schestowitzAccidentally deleting people's files and allJun 10 20:33
schestowitzSame with LeopardJun 10 20:33
schestowitz"Commercial..."Jun 10 20:34
_Hicham_great virtualization tutoJun 10 20:34
schestowitzYeah, like in commercials... illusionary stuff. Enterprise may sound better! Captains Log.Jun 10 20:34
_Hicham_commercial, yesJun 10 20:34
_Hicham_to earn moneyJun 10 20:34
schestowitzCommerceJun 10 20:35
_Hicham_open source needs big fundingJun 10 20:35
_Hicham_yesJun 10 20:35
_Hicham_of courseJun 10 20:35
_Hicham_who will pay the devs?Jun 10 20:35
schestowitzFree software needs fundingJun 10 20:35
_Hicham_yesJun 10 20:35
schestowitzNot that whole hybrid/'open core' BSJun 10 20:35
schestowitzIt's a messJun 10 20:35
_Hicham_who will pay?Jun 10 20:35
schestowitzAnd funding everywhere is down, not just for 'OSS'Jun 10 20:35
_Hicham_look at DebianJun 10 20:35
schestowitzIBM and Intel make tons of money from FSJun 10 20:35
_Hicham_all devs are having another base jobJun 10 20:36
schestowitzBut you can't FORCE them to payJun 10 20:36
_Mutex_I agree, it is a bit confusing,Jun 10 20:36
schestowitzThey contribute where it helps themJun 10 20:36
schestowitzPR and useJun 10 20:36
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] It's impressive that the Murdoch press says something positive about Linux: 10 20:36
_Hicham_the RedHat way is the bestJun 10 20:36
_Hicham_great funding, great jobJun 10 20:36
splosion_Software as a service. Seems to be working for Red Hat. But I don't see the Debian issue as being one. Debian has been coming along nicely for years with mostly hobbyist devsJun 10 20:37
_Hicham_not with the OpenSSL scandalJun 10 20:37
_Hicham_not when their servers got hackedJun 10 20:37
_Hicham_these are serious issueJun 10 20:38
_Hicham_issuesJun 10 20:38
_Hicham_and the cause?Jun 10 20:38
_Hicham_all devs are hobbyistsJun 10 20:38
_Hicham_if they were full time employees, that would never happenJun 10 20:38
schestowitzNor accurateJun 10 20:38
schestowitzIMHOJun 10 20:38
aeshna23full time employees never make mistakes.  that's why microsoft is so secure.Jun 10 20:38
schestowitzDebian uses a lot of help from full-time devsJun 10 20:39
splosion_The SSL scandal was hilariously overblown. Do you honestly think such a thing wouldn't have happened if they had been paid? Maybe yes, maybe no, but cock-ups happen in proproietary projects all the timeJun 10 20:39
schestowitzFrom Intel, IBM, Red Hat, Mozilla, etc.Jun 10 20:39
schestowitzDebian just needs to maintain some packages, also for the sake of others (reciprocity)Jun 10 20:39
schestowitzSo Debian is merely a pool of developers helping a much broader machineryJun 10 20:39
schestowitzEven Apple uses some of these 'freebies'Jun 10 20:40
schestowitzSSL, Samba, KHTMLJun 10 20:40
schestowitzDoes Apple use OpenSSL?Jun 10 20:40
_Mutex_full time professional people make mistakes all the time, the professional will not allow the product to go past him until the mistake is correctedJun 10 20:40
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] Had Opera gone Free software, many Linux users might switch from Firefox. 10 20:41
_Hicham_the QA is stronger for fulltime employeesJun 10 20:41
splosion_The number of bug patches made by *all* software developers tells me that there are some bugs that are beyond the developer's ability to predictJun 10 20:41
_Hicham_Microsoft is a bad exampleJun 10 20:41
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*mib_yrpt08 is now known as _Hicham_Jun 10 20:44
_Hicham_changed to Firefox 3.5beta4Jun 10 20:44
*_Hicham_ feels much better nowJun 10 20:44
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] Murdock reads and weeps? "OpenSolaris: how long will it be with us?" < >Jun 10 20:45
_Hicham_schestowitz is gonna be married soonJun 10 20:46
schestowitzInsurance Companies Profit Twice from Smokers < >Jun 10 20:46
_Mutex_paid employees have a vested interest in creating something that is both popular, and that sells and works or they will not continue to be paid.Jun 10 20:46
splosion__Hicham_:  are you using *nix or Windows?Jun 10 20:46
schestowitz_Hicham_: maybe in 5 years. When I get more bored :-)Jun 10 20:46
_Hicham_he will have tons of small kids labeled bn1, bn2, ...etcJun 10 20:46
schestowitz_Hicham_: met your spouse yet?Jun 10 20:47
_Hicham_splosion_ : no, just plain VistaJun 10 20:47
_Hicham_schestowitz : noJun 10 20:47
schestowitzImagine what..Jun 10 20:47
_Hicham_what?Jun 10 20:47
schestowitzIf in nature animal offsprings were made to be mated when grown olderJun 10 20:47
splosion__Hicham_: what's the RAM usage you get from firefox 3.5beta4?Jun 10 20:48
schestowitzIt's a little unnatural, ain't it?Jun 10 20:48
schestowitzThere are many traditions that conflict with human nature, IMHOJun 10 20:48
schestowitzBTW, my good friend has just gotten engagedJun 10 20:48
schestowitzAnother one is gonna have a child soonJun 10 20:48
_Hicham_splosion_ : 51 MbJun 10 20:48
schestowitzI'm still lagging behind ;-)Jun 10 20:48
_Hicham_schestowitz : u should get marriedJun 10 20:49
schestowitzNot yetJun 10 20:49
schestowitzLife expectancy is high these daysJun 10 20:49
_Mutex_its quite routine in industry for a software company to ship one version of a system, to one client install it and run it basically for as long as that plant exists without patches or modification or failureJun 10 20:49
schestowitzYou only live once, you only live single/unmarried onceJun 10 20:49
_Mutex_in fact the customer insists on itJun 10 20:49
splosion__Hicham_: check it again in a few hours. Mine starts off like that too but creeps up to... 246.121 mb nowJun 10 20:49
schestowitzAfter that you are legally "married" or "divorced" :-pJun 10 20:49
_Mutex_or widowedJun 10 20:50
_Mutex_tri-stateJun 10 20:50
schestowitzHe notes that "despite a spectacular about-face on climate change in 2007 by News Corp's chairman Rupert Murdoch, no media group can match the Murdoch press for consistently fomenting global warming skepticism and arguing against climate change mitigation measures." 10 20:51
schestowitz_Mutex_: yeah, I forgot about that. It's more rareJun 10 20:51
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fewa_Mutex_, if it aint broke, dont fix itJun 10 20:52
_Mutex_and ofcourse you can be divorced and married and widowed all at the same timeJun 10 20:52
_Mutex_fewa exactly, QA says "doing the right things, RIGHT, first time"Jun 10 20:53
fewa_Mutex_, look at debian stableJun 10 20:53
fewathey extensively work on it before releasing itJun 10 20:53
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_Mutex_good, and I have not tried debian yet,Jun 10 20:55
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] Ugly stories of propaganda and AstroTurfing (not in IT): Toxic PR < >Jun 10 20:55
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schestowitzwb, ThistleWeb Jun 10 21:01
ThistleWebhey schestowitz tyJun 10 21:02
ThistleWebI'm trying to get my head round why Apple do some thingsJun 10 21:02
schestowitzWe did well at correct Wikipedia, well... starting at leastJun 10 21:02
schestowitzThistleWeb: what did Apple do now?Jun 10 21:03
trmanco 10 21:03
schestowitzApart from dropping costs?Jun 10 21:03
ThistleWebthe /. story about removing references to ZFSJun 10 21:03
schestowitztrmanco: that account can be purgedJun 10 21:03
schestowitzIf fakeJun 10 21:03
*schestowitz looksJun 10 21:03
schestowitzThey have no ruledJun 10 21:03
ThistleWebok, they plan to do something, then change their minds, that's fineJun 10 21:03
trmancoit is fakeJun 10 21:03
ThistleWebthat happens all the timeJun 10 21:03
schestowitzAfter a fake Kanye spoke cra* to over a million followersJun 10 21:03
ThistleWebbut why rewrite history and try to pretend it never happened?Jun 10 21:03
schestowitztrmanco: it's for losersJun 10 21:03
schestowitzLiving in the shadow or someone reputableJun 10 21:04
schestowitzThink along the lines of SCOsoft shill Dan LyonsJun 10 21:04
schestowitzaka fake <some famous guy>Jun 10 21:04
ThistleWebwhere's the harm in leaving all the ZFS stuff on the site and saying "we won't be doing ZFS for reasons we can't disclose, further announcements in due course"Jun 10 21:04
ThistleWebI don't get itJun 10 21:04
schestowitztrmanco: good profileJun 10 21:04
schestowitzIt shows the #1 threatJun 10 21:05
schestowitzOne twit, one rivalJun 10 21:05
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] The IMF Accountability Moment < >Jun 10 21:05
schestowitzThistleWeb: ah, that. I saw it earlierJun 10 21:05
ThistleWebit's like trying to pretend that every Apple brainstorming session only produced 100% good ideas that made it into productsJun 10 21:05
schestowitzI personally enjoy seeing Apple h/w going bellyupJun 10 21:06
schestowitzThe fans have spread the illusion that Apple 'makes' (chooses) good h/wJun 10 21:06
ThistleWebthat's bullshit, most brainstorming sessions produce 99% shit, the other 1% decent ideas that may go somewhere after further thought and researchJun 10 21:06
schestowitzBrainstorms sucjJun 10 21:06
ThistleWebthats the point of brainstorming, so people can throw whatever comes to them out thereJun 10 21:07
ThistleWebmost is shitJun 10 21:07
schestowitzA colleague of mine says he though of his fairly revolutionary idea (published over 100 papers) while sitting on the looJun 10 21:07
ThistleWebbut the more free people are, the more gems will be foundJun 10 21:07
schestowitzBrainstorm indeedJun 10 21:07
schestowitzMore like Sh*tstormJun 10 21:07
ThistleWeblolJun 10 21:07
schestowitzI look into the crystal ballJun 10 21:07
schestowitzI gaze into the magic balls..Jun 10 21:08
schestowitzI read tea leavesJun 10 21:08
ThistleWebthe internet has infinite ways of archiving events, no company can censor them allJun 10 21:08
schestowitz:I saw Uranus opening up on the west"Jun 10 21:08
schestowitzI see venus coming closer to Mars"Jun 10 21:08
schestowitz"It must mean you're pregnant"Jun 10 21:08
ThistleWebI find it odd that some things have loads of pages . sites devoted to the story, yet the source company has ZERO on it, after it's been purgedJun 10 21:08
schestowitzThe mambo-jumbo things are truly unnerving]Jun 10 21:09
ThistleWebmy 100% accurate, very scientific moist finger in the air style disputes your methodsJun 10 21:09
schestowitzThistleWeb: which events?Jun 10 21:09
ThistleWebApple's ZFS is just the latestJun 10 21:09
schestowitzWikipedia will be helpful for postmortemJun 10 21:09
schestowitzPeople can now see all the nonsense shils like hAl injected into it and whenJun 10 21:10
ThistleWebPhorm / BT is anotherJun 10 21:10
schestowitzYeah..Jun 10 21:10
schestowitzNews about tit today..Jun 10 21:10
schestowitz 10 21:10
schestowitz /s/tit/it/Jun 10 21:10
schestowitzYikes. bad typoJun 10 21:10
schestowitz.Jun 10 21:10
ThistleWebPhorm should be illegalJun 10 21:10
ThistleWebanyone who saddles up with them should also be punishedJun 10 21:11
_Goblinas long as its "opt in" then I wouldnt have a problem...Jun 10 21:11
ThistleWebyeah, opt-in is what they seek to avoidJun 10 21:12
ThistleWebfor the obvious reason that bobody wouldJun 10 21:12
_Goblinand that I think highlights its true natureJun 10 21:12
Balrogproblem with opt in is that they'll make a sneaky way for people to do that without knowingJun 10 21:13
_Goblintrue...Jun 10 21:13
schestowitzPhorm..Jun 10 21:14
schestowitzWe sell yourJun 10 21:14
_Goblinan opt out to opt in...if you see what I mean...Jun 10 21:14
schestowitz"We sell you"Jun 10 21:14
schestowitz"Whether you like it or not"Jun 10 21:14
schestowitzThe cost of privacy.. and Google should knowJun 10 21:14
schestowitzPeople only start caring when they hear about ID DBs getting abused to rake muck about celebsJun 10 21:15
ThistleWebwe need a Firefox Phormblock addonJun 10 21:15
schestowitzOr Slated.orgJun 10 21:15
schestowitzWith DePhormedJun 10 21:15
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] Wow. This is unnerving. People go overseas to kill remaining wildlife for food and fun. 10 21:15
ThistleWebsomething which identifies itself clearly on the server as a Phorm blockJun 10 21:15
schestowitzTHE UK government supports PhormJun 10 21:15
schestowitzThe European CCommission confronted Clown et al over itJun 10 21:16
ThistleWebthe EU are questioning the UK govets approach with PhormJun 10 21:16
schestowitzThe UK elites LOVE the idea of having list of IDs with corresponding profilesJun 10 21:16
schestowitzMakes good BI for advertisers but also sellersJun 10 21:16
schestowitzBe ready to be charged more for plane ticket if they know your IP is a 'wealthy one'Jun 10 21:17
ThistleWebI wouldn't be surprised if Microsoft were found to be turning a blind eye to US Govt / CIA / FBI / Homeland Security trojans on Windows PCs in return for no anti-trust actionJun 10 21:17
fewa 10 21:17
ThistleWebit kinda encourages the US govt to help Microsoft keep their monopoly, keep people on PCs which are infectableJun 10 21:18
ThistleWebthe more who leave Windows, the smaller the number of peeps being spied on isJun 10 21:19
trmancowtfJun 10 21:19
trmancoI'm being spammedJun 10 21:20
Balrogtrmanco: ??!?!?!Jun 10 21:21
trmancoBalrog, somebody tried to spam me through DCCJun 10 21:22
Balrogargh. happened to me beforeJun 10 21:22
trmancobringing up a gigante filename with aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaJun 10 21:22
trmancobut a lot moreJun 10 21:22
Balrogargh.Jun 10 21:22
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ThistleWebDCC?Jun 10 21:24
trmancoyeahJun 10 21:24
ThistleWebI was asking what DCC isJun 10 21:24
trmancoohJun 10 21:24
*ThistleWeb is still kinda new to IRCJun 10 21:25
trmancofile transfer through ircJun 10 21:25
ThistleWebahh kJun 10 21:25
schestowitz> Hmm.  It's ours, but I didn't ask the guy doing it to add folks IJun 10 21:25
schestowitz> purportedly follow. Thanks for telling me. I'll let him know.Jun 10 21:25
schestowitz> Jun 10 21:25
schestowitz> I did say he could get it to make sure no one else did, and I said itJun 10 21:25
schestowitz> was OK to put links there.Jun 10 21:25
schestowitz> Jun 10 21:25
schestowitz> Jun 10 21:25
schestowitzFakers and legal actions there lately...Jun 10 21:25
schestowitzSee the Kanye West situation too. And...Jun 10 21:25
trmanco 10 21:25
ThistleWebyeah I spotted that in my XChat settings but never used it yetJun 10 21:25
trmancobrbJun 10 21:29
trmancobackJun 10 21:31
ThistleWebwbJun 10 21:32
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] France suspends Three Strikes -- declared unconstitutionalJun 10 21:35
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] A 72-year-old Texas great-grandmother gets tasered by police 10 21:35
_Mutex_that made the aussie news as well, what can i say, its shocking !!!Jun 10 21:36
ThistleWeblol @ shockingJun 10 21:42
schestowitzMinceR: your friend worries that His Precious will lose the thunder to open source, which he purports to like: 10 21:47
schestowitz_Mutex_: Did the cops enjoy it, you think? Maybe they wanted to see if it works and using it where life is less valuable made sense.Jun 10 21:48
ThistleWebtheres a common misconception that just because someone is old, that they are also nice, well behaved, well manored peopleJun 10 21:49
ThistleWeblike any age group, it varies from person to person. There are asshats in all walks of lifeJun 10 21:50
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[_goblin] More bad news? " #Microsoft to discontinue MS Money" #windows #vistaJun 10 21:50
MinceRschestowitz: he loves it so much he wants it to fail, just like crApple doesJun 10 21:51
schestowitzYeah, he started trolling "open source"Jun 10 21:52
schestowitzLike, "is it dying?" [gimme trafficJun 10 21:52
schestowitzRemember this:Jun 10 21:52
schestowitzHe's the one in OSI who welcomed MSJun 10 21:52
schestowitzAnd they ruined the open souce brandJun 10 21:52
schestowitz 10 21:53
MinceRactually i don't see a lot of hostility in this articleJun 10 21:53
MinceRasay is in OSI?Jun 10 21:53
schestowitzMatt Asay writes that he can't understand why Microsoft's submission of its Microsoft Permissive License is not being welcomed by one and all with open arms at OSI. So I thought I'd try to explain it. ""Jun 10 21:53
schestowitz[ Why, Why, Why OSI? - Updated]Jun 10 21:53
schestowitzMinceR: not anymore, noJun 10 21:53
schestowitz" See? It doesn't say OSI can't discriminate. It can if it wants to, as far as the OSD is concerned. So Microsoft's representatives and defenders need to stop twisting the definition's words. "Jun 10 21:53
trmancoredesigned addons site -> 10 21:53
schestowitz"So the question becomes, should OSI discriminate? Will a farmer let a fox into the henhouse if the fox puts on a chicken suit?"Jun 10 21:53
schestowitz"The farmer's chickens need him to protect them, because chickens don't win battles with foxes. The fox has all the fangs in this picture. So a farmer naturally will think ahead and take steps to try to prevent such battles on his watch. The devious fox may still figure out a way to slip inside and kill some chickens, but at least the farmer wasn't the one who held open the door."Jun 10 21:54
schestowitzSo Matt Asay is essentially the one who says, "naaa. come on, let the fox in"Jun 10 21:54
schestowitzBut maybe it's because MS takes him to lunch and stuffJun 10 21:54
schestowitz"So approving a Microsoft license brings all that with it. Is that your intent? It's a serious responsibility now on OSI's shoulders to make sure the patent commons stays peaceful and isn't misused. It's not just about a license. There is all that goes with being on the approved list."Jun 10 21:55
MinceRthey don't need to twist the definition's words because it doesn't say anything about patentsJun 10 21:55
schestowitzConclusion:Jun 10 21:55
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[trmanco] Mozilla has redesigned the Addons website -> 10 21:55
schestowitzDon't let Apple fans occupy OSIJun 10 21:55
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trmanco 10 21:57
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[davidgerard] @_Goblin renaming it Microsoft Debt, no doubtJun 10 22:00
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schestowitzCrooks who ruin the Web for profit (yet, yet another group): 10 22:01
trmanco 10 22:02
schestowitztrmanco: pathetic NovellJun 10 22:02
schestowitzMaybe they can sell mugs.. or t-shirts, like SCOJun 10 22:03
schestowitz"You must have an HTML5 capable browser. "Jun 10 22:03
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] This is how Google 'innovates' outside (and sometimes inside) search. It just buys. 10 22:05
ThistleWebthe trureputation peeps will get plenty of potential customers while it's more profitable to write off illegal / immoral practices as a business expenseJun 10 22:05
schestowitzheh.Jun 10 22:05
schestowitzOr Kroes -imposed fineJun 10 22:06
ThistleWebyepJun 10 22:06
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ThistleWebwhen it costs them less to pay for it and keep doing it, than it does to stop it, nothing will changeJun 10 22:07
ThistleWebit'd be nice to have a law which states any change of name etc must be displayed permanently and visibly on their websiteJun 10 22:08
ThistleWebso rebranding always carries the snail trailJun 10 22:08
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ThistleWebany company with a history page of disgraced companies is likely to be another roll of the same diceJun 10 22:09
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schestowitzWhy Normal People Don't Use Linux <,1000000567,10012914o-2000332346b,00.htm >Jun 10 22:10
schestowitzThistleWeb: Yes,Blackwater is a recent exampleJun 10 22:10
schestowitzThere are several others I saw recentlyJun 10 22:11
ThistleWebyep, mediasentryJun 10 22:11
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schestowitzPhorm did not rename like I thought. Jun 10 22:12
schestowitzHey, ThatGuy_ Jun 10 22:13
trmancoanother dead MS product -> Microsoft to discontinue MS Money:: 10 22:13
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[trmanco] AMD Gains Market Share from Intel: 10 22:15
schestowitzASUS fail. "First off: this is no ad, nor a bying recommendation. In fact, I couldn’t really recommend this card. Not for Unix/Linux, and even more so not for Windows."Jun 10 22:16
schestowitztrmanco: taJun 10 22:16
ThistleWebI wonder if the law-enforced snail trail on rebranding would be fought on the same principle of a defendants past crimes not being disclosed at trial on the basis that they are on trial for only one crimeJun 10 22:16
*schestowitz looks for coverage not from the MS PR puppetJun 10 22:16
ThistleWebthe fact that someone has 20 past convictions for mugging does not mean he's guilty of this muggingJun 10 22:17
ThatGuy_Yes?Jun 10 22:17
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schestowitz*LOLJun 10 22:19
schestowitzAOL and Comcast Top the MSN Money 2009 Customer Service Hall of Shame < >Jun 10 22:19
_Mutex_dont you know there is only ONE mugger on the plannet , he's just very busy\Jun 10 22:19
schestowitzSo they mock companies and declare the product deadJun 10 22:19
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] Microsoft has run out of Money about 15 dead MS projects in half a yearJun 10 22:20
ThistleWeba bit like Santa, who I've never understood is acceptable; an strange old man encouraged to come into kids bedrooms at night unattended and empty his sack......and this is used as a reward?Jun 10 22:20
ThatGuy_Yes, schestowitz?Jun 10 22:21
schestowitzNo, sorryJun 10 22:21
schestowitzI'm not engaging with this stuff.Jun 10 22:21
schestowitz<ThatGuy_> Is this Roy Schestowitz?Jun 10 22:21
schestowitz<schestowitz> yesJun 10 22:21
schestowitz<ThatGuy_> Hey. I'm from We're having a few issues, and the admin was wondering if you would mind coming into our IRC and talking to them privately. ##linsuxchatJun 10 22:21
schestowitz<ThatGuy_> Is that a yes or a no? We really would like to resolve the issues that have come up.Jun 10 22:21
schestowitzTell your buddies to grow upJun 10 22:21
ThatGuy_So, instead of coming and talking to us, like adults, which is what we're asking, you tell me to tell THEM to "grow up?" Why don't you come over and just talk with the admins. Let's get this resolved.Jun 10 22:22
ThistleWebAOL have been a trainwreck of a company for a long time, it's only a matter of "when" not "if" they collapseJun 10 22:23
ThatGuy_We have disagreements, yes, but I think the "disagreement" has gone way too far and we should resolve this like mature adults.Jun 10 22:23
ThistleWebmy first ISP was AOL because I didn't know any better, their customer service sucked REAL bad then, and that was apparently the new and improved AOLJun 10 22:23
ThistleWebit seems nothing has really improved since I left themJun 10 22:24
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[_goblin] Article on Openbytes: "No money in MS Money?" #windows #vista #microsoft #msJun 10 22:25
ThistleWebyour company is doomed when the approch is "there's always a new sucker to replace a disgruntled ex-customer", sooner or later your reputation catches up with you and you run out of new suckersJun 10 22:25
_Mutex_MYOB has the market tied up, at least here in AustraliaJun 10 22:26
_Mutex_The only place that matters LOLJun 10 22:26
ThistleWeblolJun 10 22:26
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ThatGuy_schestowitz : So, you won't come and be "grown up" as you tell us to be. Our staff is reaching out to you to resolve the issues that are at hand between your community and ours. But, instead, you are just waving us off and refusing to work with us. Am I correct?Jun 10 22:30
ThistleWebThatGuy_: Roy puts all his IRC stuff in public, on the recordJun 10 22:30
ThistleWebyou're asking him to a conversation off the recordJun 10 22:31
ThistleWebthat's his issueJun 10 22:31
ThistleWeboff the record, people can claim all sortsJun 10 22:31
ThistleWebon the record people can see for themselvesJun 10 22:31
ThatGuy_That's because we're looking for a private conversation. We don't need 20 other people chiming in everytime we try to talk.Jun 10 22:31
ThatGuy_He is free to save the logs, just as we will.Jun 10 22:31
_Mutex_like there are actually "issues" to resolveJun 10 22:32
ThistleWebevery time anyone PMs Roy he pastes it into the channel so it's on the recordJun 10 22:32
ThatGuy_At the same time, our main admin cannot come in here to talk because he has been banned. When he heard that Roy was in here, he tried to join to talk to him, but can'tJun 10 22:32
ThatGuy__Mutex_ This is what I mean. I'm not attacking you, just an example. If we try to talk to Roy, there will, undoubtedly be several other people who want to chime in.Jun 10 22:33
ThatGuy_That's fine. He's free to copy and paste everything. We are not trying to hide anything.Jun 10 22:33
_Mutex_thats right, kinda what public chat rooms are about,  chatting in public.Jun 10 22:33
ThatGuy_Our Admin staff wants this stuff dealt with and done with.Jun 10 22:34
schestowitzYour 'admin stuff' published things claiming I'm trassexeual and stuffJun 10 22:34
schestowitzYour admin can fsck himserlfJun 10 22:34
ThatGuy__Mutex_ The only problem is that it can be more difficult to take care and settle things when everyone wants to chime inJun 10 22:34
schestowitzAnd your libellous stuff would have you sued had you had real namedJun 10 22:34
schestowitzAnd not some half-dead avatarsJun 10 22:34
ThatGuy_schestowitz : You really want to take this route?Jun 10 22:35
schestowitzI'm not going to spend time on that 'linsux' crapJun 10 22:35
_Mutex_so your asking someone outside of your web site to come on and settle something that is under your control on YOUR web site,Jun 10 22:35
fewaThatGuy_, your an assholeJun 10 22:35
ThatGuy_You get upset because we say something bad about you. Okay, I understand. Our site is highly satarical.Jun 10 22:35
schestowitzYou're clogging up the channel with noise that reduces signalJun 10 22:35
_Mutex_and you wonder why he does not want to do that ? gee ,, go figureJun 10 22:35
fewaThatGuy_, and you have no beef to talk about, except what you have createdJun 10 22:35
ThatGuy_You can't sue a satarical site for saying stuff like that. Just like you can't sue the Onion or SNL.Jun 10 22:35
fewaThatGuy_, your site is not satireJun 10 22:35
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ThatGuy_Except that our staff is being threatened over and over.Jun 10 22:36
ThatGuy_Really?Jun 10 22:36
ThatGuy_Legal and physical threats. He's used to that, but this is getting worseJun 10 22:36
_Mutex_thanks for clearing that up for me ThatGuyJun 10 22:36
ThatGuy_Our TOS states that our site is sataricalJun 10 22:36
Carl_Rover2k12I saw the new Macbook Pro lineup just before I got on here, all I have to say is who the F* do they think they're kinding?Jun 10 22:37
ThatGuy_and that is is for entertainment purposes.Jun 10 22:37
ThatGuy_At the same time, schestowitz : You are allowed to post what you want on your site. We have the freedom to do the same.Jun 10 22:37
_Mutex_but you are requesting someone come to your site and "resolve" your satire ?Jun 10 22:37
ThatGuy_To our IRC room. All are invited. You can all come.Jun 10 22:37
Carl_Rover2k12ThatGuy_: which website is this for?Jun 10 22:38
ThistleWebto me, satire is showing events as people perceive them, expanding rumours etc not outright lies and defamationJun 10 22:38
ThatGuy_The problem is that the lead Admin can't come in here to talk about the situationJun 10 22:38
Carl_Rover2k12ThistleWeb: satire is exaggerating events in the style and for the purpose of making fun of themJun 10 22:38
ThatGuy_Really? Where is defamation. You honestly think that someone coming to our site is going to believe that we view someone as gay or whatever.Jun 10 22:38
_Mutex_exactly CarlJun 10 22:39
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ThistleWebso which part of transexual is true? if its an exacgeration of reality for entertainment?Jun 10 22:39
ThistleWebsome part must be true to be exageratedJun 10 22:39
Carl_Rover2k12_Mutex_: you think the new Macbook Pros are a slap in the face for those who didn't adopt earlier?Jun 10 22:39
fewaignore the trollsJun 10 22:39
MinceRthey're a slap in the face for those who buy themJun 10 22:40
ThatGuy_If you don't want to come to our chat room, will you unban our lead admin so he come here and talk to ya'll and resolve this.Jun 10 22:40
fewa^^^^^^^Jun 10 22:40
MinceRbut most of them enjoy being slapped in the face.Jun 10 22:40
ThistleWebiSlapJun 10 22:40
fewaexactly what i was going to writeJun 10 22:40
ThistleWeblol, it's an easy hit to an an iJun 10 22:40
_Mutex_whats this "macbook" word mean, ?? is it somthing you eat ?Jun 10 22:40
MinceRgnJun 10 22:41
_GoblingnJun 10 22:41
Carl_Rover2k12_Mutex_: very true but now since they are removing Express Card slots on every model except the 17-inch replacing it with a single SD slot as well as changing nothing besides bumping up the RAM to DDR3. Its just pitifulJun 10 22:41
ThatGuy_So, its okay for your people to come over and threaten us over and over?Jun 10 22:41
MinceR_Mutex_: it's something you put on your papers so that the wind won't move themJun 10 22:41
Carl_Rover2k12_Mutex_: you would think Apple would have had drivers for the Nvidia x260 by nowJun 10 22:41
MinceRbut only if you're really rich and don't know what to do with your moneyJun 10 22:41
Carl_Rover2k12_Mutex_: in fact they could because FreeBSD has themJun 10 22:41
_GoblinPoor MS Money....may it rest in peace...Jun 10 22:42
Carl_Rover2k12_Mutex_: Macbook implies that Apple is Macing for your checkbookJun 10 22:42
_Mutex_they can mac until the cows come home they wont see my money. :)Jun 10 22:43
ThatGuy_schestowitz : Are you still here? Do you fight your own battles or let others do it for you?Jun 10 22:43
_Mutex_tell us what you think the battle is and we'll shut upJun 10 22:43
Carl_Rover2k12_Mutex_: same here, especially since they still have not updated to an Nvidia GPU thats not thermal deffectiveJun 10 22:44
ThatGuy_Actually, we're not even trying to fight anymore. We just want to resolve this.Jun 10 22:44
_GoblinI must admit I was sceptical of the Mac until I had a go on the wifes....solid system.Jun 10 22:44
ThistleWebThatGuy_: you want to keep using satire as a defense, but I ask again, what part of transexual is true? If satire is an exageration of reality for entertainmentJun 10 22:44
schestowitz> ThatGuy_> Legal and physical threats. He's used to that, but this is getting worseJun 10 22:44
ThatGuy_satire has many definitionsJun 10 22:44
schestowitzNonsense.Jun 10 22:44
schestowitzLibelJun 10 22:44
ThistleWebyep, the one people use to hide behind, and it's real meaningJun 10 22:45
ThatGuy_Libel requires that the victim was hurt by the comments.Jun 10 22:45
Carl_Rover2k12_Goblin: solid system because nothing ever drastically changes for it in over a decadeJun 10 22:45
schestowitzThatGuy_: you're sperading lies about meJun 10 22:45
ThistleWebsatire is only satire if people believe it COULD be like thatJun 10 22:45
schestowitzFor it to be loggedJun 10 22:45
schestowitzGoodbyeJun 10 22:45
ThatGuy_Are you telling me that what was written on our site had such an impact that it hurt you in some way?Jun 10 22:45
*schestowitz sets ban on *!*n=lee@*.sc.res.rr.comJun 10 22:45
_Goblintrue.  But I gauge its value on the amount of problems the wife has.  To date she has had none.Jun 10 22:45
*schestowitz has kicked ThatGuy_ from #boycottnovell (schestowitz)Jun 10 22:45
_Mutex_thatguy im sure there are easier ways to get hits on your web site, then to troll here for customers :)Jun 10 22:46
schestowitzHe liedJun 10 22:46
_Mutex_:DJun 10 22:46
schestowitzI never made ANY threats against themJun 10 22:46
schestowitzhe's fooling y'allJun 10 22:46
schestowitzAnd I wasn't paying attention to IRCJun 10 22:46
fewanot fooling meJun 10 22:46
schestowitzlet me find something I saw this morning.Jun 10 22:46
fewabblJun 10 22:46
schestowitzHere:;title=Could%20someone%20please%20fix%20this%3F&type=article&order=&amp;hideanonymous=0&pid=648388#c648423Jun 10 22:47
schestowitz"Also, is there any reason to devote so much space to the Maureen O'Gara incident? I see someone even links to Grokdoc's recent changes page, which is offensive and will attract more spam, and also they list Dan Lyons' vicious article about me. Can someone get rid of that junk?"Jun 10 22:47
schestowitz"It's like SCO's smear campaign has been enshrined there, which is a real distortion of Groklaw's place in history. Neither Lyons's smears or O'Gara's have any place there. There is no reason to list materials I consider libelous. You can quote me, if necessary. And why is there so much about the Sys-con allegations? They have been completely disproven. "Jun 10 22:47
schestowitz"Again, that is in the end, the references. If you have to give a reason, state that it's libel. Because Groklaw didn't report on the O'Gara article until after the alleged DDOS supposedly began, so even if there was one, which I don't believe, Groklaw had nothing to do with it, obviously. So the only reason someone put it there is to smear Groklaw. "Jun 10 22:47
mib_di40yaSchestowitz: You never directly threatened, but there has been issues brought up by people from here, and we would like to discuss the possibility of you helping us correct what has happened. I think you need to be made aware of these problems as they might affect you if any legal action is taken. I am not here to troll. This really needs to be resolved.Jun 10 22:48
Carl_Rover2k12_Goblin: and I know people who have had plenty of problems from buggy iWebs in which the metatag is posted incorrectly and there is no way to change it because its Apple software in where the user shouldn't interfere with the "environment." Then there are the issues with Roxio Toaster mounting the DVD burner correctly on a certain OSX user account but not the otherJun 10 22:48
schestowitzmib_di40ya: there's no legal actionJun 10 22:48
Carl_Rover2k12_Goblin: OSX has its fair share of problems, but I admit they don't happen as often and hardly ever deal with daily useJun 10 22:48
schestowitzI don't even feed those trollsJun 10 22:48
schestowitzLet alone threaten themJun 10 22:49
schestowitzAnd keep that linsux BS off this channel plsJun 10 22:49
schestowitzIt's noiseJun 10 22:49
schestowitzWe don't need that cesspool herJun 10 22:49
schestowitz*hereJun 10 22:49
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ThistleWebcesspool hair, now there's amental image for yaJun 10 22:49
schestowitzit's bad to be associated with, not to mention that it's borderline crime for them to rejoice attacking the site (DDOS) and claiming to be behind itJun 10 22:49
mib_di40yaSchestowitz: There have been several threats of violence and of legal action that have taken place. I want to show you these threats so you can act accordingly, you should probably see this stuff.Jun 10 22:50
schestowitzLook.Jun 10 22:50
Carl_Rover2k12_Goblin: however because of the way every Apple app inexplicably likes to stash some sort of .ktext in the Extensions and Library folder up until recently it was pretty difficult for the average user to completely uninstall an applicationJun 10 22:50
schestowitzI don't want to hear about that Linsux BS hereJun 10 22:50
schestowitzFSDaily want those people bannedJun 10 22:50
schestowitzAnd I tolerated it for too longJun 10 22:50
schestowitzYou can talk about topics hereJun 10 22:50
schestowitzThat's fineJun 10 22:50
schestowitzI'm not against anyone because they read this and that stuffJun 10 22:50
schestowitzJust don't bring abuse, foul language, racism, etc.Jun 10 22:51
mib_di40yaWe're just asking, very nicely, would you please talk to the owner before it hits the fan. We want to correct any wrong doings, but there's some VERY big problems hereJun 10 22:51
schestowitzbecause you try to distract and derail.Jun 10 22:51
schestowitzNo need.Jun 10 22:51
_GoblinCarl:  The important thing for my wife (since she has no interest in IT) is a functional, tight and userfriendly machine.  It seems Apple suits her best...Jun 10 22:51
schestowitzThere is no problemJun 10 22:51
mib_di40yaWe want a closed conversation with you for five minutes.Jun 10 22:51
schestowitzI said to Sean Tilly there's peaceJun 10 22:51
mib_di40yaWhy is that so much to ask for?Jun 10 22:51
schestowitzAnd he came here to take a pile in the chatJun 10 22:52
mib_di40yaNot by the people on your siteJun 10 22:52
_GoblinI dont think anyone cares mib.Jun 10 22:52
_Mutex_tell your admin to learn how to edit a web page, or how to take down offensive material. its after all YOUR responsibilityJun 10 22:52
schestowitzSo stop teasing us, plsJun 10 22:52
mib_di40yaYou're not the problem, but you need to be aware of what these people are saying on your site.Jun 10 22:52
schestowitzWe don't even pay attention to you, so stop harrassing usJun 10 22:52
schestowitz*harassingJun 10 22:52
_Goblinwe are not interested in anything that the site says.Jun 10 22:52
schestowitzThey advertise themseld by just bringing it upJun 10 22:53
_Goblinit is childish and trying to get popularity on the back of respected sites.Jun 10 22:53
schestowitzWe need it here as much as we need GoatseJun 10 22:53
EDavidBurg_Goblin: isn't the xxx domain going for porn sites now? or did that never happen?Jun 10 22:53
mib_di40yaYou're the one prolonging this, we want you to talk to you out of a public area to discuss some legal issues.Jun 10 22:53
mib_di40yaThis isn't bullJun 10 22:53
_Goblinpass....!Jun 10 22:53 is.Jun 10 22:53
_Goblinnobody caresJun 10 22:54
_Goblinthe only people who post on your site is the same few people.Jun 10 22:54
EDavidBurg_Goblin: small communities are still communitiesJun 10 22:55
Carl_Rover2k12_Goblin: it is just there are plenty of issues Apple has to contend with before proclaiming to be THE BEST company for user experience. Another thing is beyond Apple's Genius Bar in their stores there is no clear structure of tech support, requests that are filed seem to just sit there before someone picks them up and calls someone for the  whole "individual experience." Which sometimes doesn't amount to much aside from sloJun 10 22:55
mib_di40yaThis is childish. I'm just trying to make you aware of some legal problems you might face.Jun 10 22:55
Carl_Rover2k12EDavidBurg: domain specifying is burried, too many different websites use different domains. Its about as relevant now as putting "www" before the web addressJun 10 22:56
_Goblinedavidburg: agreed and as far as the immature potty mouthed behaviour of "the site that cannot be named", it will stay that way.Jun 10 22:56
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_Mutex_no one outside of you or your web site admins have any legal issues to resolve geeezzzzJun 10 22:56
_Mutex_you think we're stupid ??Jun 10 22:56
Carl_Rover2k12I don't see any threats of violence beyond those that claim there are :-/Jun 10 22:57
mib_di40yaNo, you're stupid. I'm trying to tell you that we've received threats from people on this site and there's issues that need to be resolved.Jun 10 22:57
_Goblinand Roy needs to resolve them because........?Jun 10 22:57
_Goblinanyone cares because.......?Jun 10 22:57
mib_di40yaIt might cause him legal troubleJun 10 22:57
trmancoI'm now using FF 3.5b99 nowJun 10 22:57
schestowitzMicrosoft Has No Money Anymore < >Jun 10 22:58
mib_331k89Why ban people because you don't like what they're saying. What happened to freedom?Jun 10 22:58
_GoblinlolJun 10 22:58
_Mutex_we'll thanks for that, YOU'VE received threats, YOU DEAL WITH THEM.Jun 10 22:58
_Mutex_and go away while your at itJun 10 22:58
_Goblinmib....lets hear it then....and be careful.Jun 10 22:58
_Goblinwhat offenses have taken place?Jun 10 22:58
_Goblinare we talking civil or criminal.Jun 10 22:58
mib_di40yaThis doesn't concern you Mutex and Goblin, this is a matter between the staff members of these two sites. The issues have no been made public.Jun 10 22:58
mib_di40yaBoth.Jun 10 22:58
_Mutex_he's not going to tell youJun 10 22:58
schestowitz_Goblin: thanks for the link on MoneyJun 10 22:59
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_Mutex_what did I say,Jun 10 22:59
_GoblinOh it does, I think you will find I am able to give you quite comprehensive legal advice.Jun 10 22:59
schestowitzMicrosoft is unable to maintain teamsJun 10 22:59
mib_di40yaThanks, but no.Jun 10 22:59
schestowitzIt means that as much as they try, there are problems they won't talk aboutJun 10 22:59
_GoblinIn relation to UK law.Jun 10 22:59
EDavidBurgschestowitz: i see what you did there (nice pun)Jun 10 22:59
mib_di40yaI already have a lawyer.Jun 10 22:59
_Goblinno case Roy....just wind.Jun 10 22:59
_Goblinthats nice for you Mib.Jun 10 22:59
schestowitz_Goblin: just leave that peripheral discussionJun 10 22:59
_GoblinagreedJun 10 23:00
schestowitzIt's not related to #bn. It's noiseJun 10 23:00
_Mutex_lucky about that, you'll need oneJun 10 23:00
trmancoMozilla/5.0 (X11; U; Linux i686; en-US; rv:1.9.1b99) Gecko/20090610 Ubuntu/9.04 (jaunty) Shiretoko/3.5b99Jun 10 23:00
mib_di40yaReally?Jun 10 23:00
mib_di40yaAre you going to make more threats?Jun 10 23:00
_GoblinIm going to have a beer.Jun 10 23:00
_Mutex_More? I would have to start with one firstJun 10 23:00
mib_di40yaWell, I'm really not sure who you are.Jun 10 23:01
_Mutex_so !! im not sure who you are either, im not sure i careJun 10 23:02
_GoblinIm Elvis.Jun 10 23:02
mib_331k89Very grown upJun 10 23:02
*neonfloss has quit ("Leaving")Jun 10 23:02
mib_di40yaBut if Schestowitz doesn't want to discuss this issue, then fine.Jun 10 23:02
_Goblintrue.Jun 10 23:02
_Goblinok byeJun 10 23:02
mib_di40yaI'm just trying to be niceJun 10 23:02
_Mutex_If your elvis whats your middle name ??Jun 10 23:02
_Goblinpass..Jun 10 23:03
_Goblinnever was a fan.Jun 10 23:03
_Goblinbye Mib.Jun 10 23:03
schestowitzThe brand name of hypervm is dead: 10 23:03
schestowitzWho would buy HyperVM now?Jun 10 23:03
_Mutex_if your call threatening legal action and trying to conjole someone to visiting your site is nce sure you wereJun 10 23:03
mib_331k89So, this is what happens when we attempt to settle things. Instead of acting like adults and settling things, like adults. The entire BN IRC room decides to act like children.Jun 10 23:03
mib_di40yaIt's funny, though. You see, Schestowitz doesn't even know what we're talking about, yet he writes it off like we're bullshitting.Jun 10 23:03
_GoblinRoy, have you seen the MS Money news?Jun 10 23:03
_Mutex_he's being on topicJun 10 23:04
EDavidBurg_Mutex_: he just linked to that a few minutes agoJun 10 23:04
splosion_trmanco: that DCC thing you got earlier is an old IRC trolling trick. Some old clients would go apeshit if you sent a file with more than $can't_remember characters in the title. On old, poorly configured IRC networks, just issuing a DCC send could disconnect half the users on a channel. Surprised somebody thought it would still work tbhJun 10 23:04
schestowitz_Goblin: yes, just posted about itJun 10 23:04
_GoblinThey talk about you seen Trojans profile...Jun 10 23:04
mib_331k89We're called immature, etc. And yet...You all act like you're in grade school. Weird.Jun 10 23:04
schestowitzThe noise must have made it vanishJun 10 23:04
schestowitz<schestowitz> Microsoft Has No Money Anymore < >Jun 10 23:04
_Goblinby not rising to your bait?Jun 10 23:04
schestowitzThere are many good headline for thisJun 10 23:05
schestowitz*linesJun 10 23:05
trmancosplosion_, I see :-PJun 10 23:05
schestowitzIn Identica I used another punmJun 10 23:05
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[trmanco] Mozilla/5.0 (X11; U; Linux i686; en-US; rv:1.9.1b99) Gecko/20090610 Ubuntu/9.04 (jaunty) Shiretoko/3.5b99 :DJun 10 23:05
_GoblinRoy, I prefered my title....No money in MS Money.Jun 10 23:05
splosion_sorry I was on the phone but I saw and I remembered to make sure I told you, trmanco :PJun 10 23:05
trmancoah, thanksJun 10 23:05
*fewa has quit (Read error: 113 (No route to host))Jun 10 23:06
schestowitz_Goblin: yes, it's factually trueJun 10 23:06
schestowitzThey couldn't make money from itJun 10 23:06
schestowitzThey tried taking it offlineJun 10 23:06
_Goblinso whats next....MS Money, Summer Picnics, MS Flightsim, Bars on much more fat will MS cut?Jun 10 23:06
schestowitz6 months or so they took it off the shalvesJun 10 23:06
schestowitz..Said they would sell it onloneJun 10 23:06
schestowitzBut apparently it didn't work outJun 10 23:06
_Mutex_did they cut flightsim ?Jun 10 23:07
_GoblinyeahJun 10 23:07
_Goblina few months agoJun 10 23:07
schestowitz_Goblin: well, Live search is dead tooJun 10 23:07
schestowitzThey created a deception engineJun 10 23:07
schestowitzTelling you what to thinkJun 10 23:07
_Mutex_I have a really old win 95 version that have the twin towers in it, (since removed).Jun 10 23:07
*yuhong ( has joined #boycottnovellJun 10 23:07
balzacI used to enjoy a game called Fokker Tri Plane on the Mac plusJun 10 23:07
_GoblinIt wont matter, they just change the name againJun 10 23:07
schestowitzSearch engines are too expensive to makeJun 10 23:07
schestowitzThey CANCELED their Iowa DCJun 10 23:07
schestowitzBack around DecemberJun 10 23:08
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ThistleWebreal inovation would be "dead search" where you can find the deceased with an integrated PM protocol to chat to themJun 10 23:08
schestowitzPermanently forzen, which means they'll never build another DCJun 10 23:08
_Mutex_Elite on the AmigaJun 10 23:08
_GoblinDavid BrabenJun 10 23:08
yuhongBTW, there is a simple mistake in a link from this page.Jun 10 23:08
_Goblina coding God!Jun 10 23:08
yuhong 10 23:08
balzacThe executives at Microsoft should all be reading Stallman's Free Software Free SocietyJun 10 23:08
schestowitz_Goblin: seen Schmidt's comment?Jun 10 23:08
schestowitzVery FUNNYJun 10 23:08
_Goblinno not yetJun 10 23:09
balzacif they want to raise their social awareness and learn how to adjustJun 10 23:09
schestowitzabout 3 hours ago from Jun 10 23:09
schestowitz    Jun 10 23:09
schestowitzGoogle CEO on Microsoft Bing: 'They do this about once a year'Jun 10 23:09
yuhong's-cutts-apologizes-for-paid-post-snafuJun 10 23:09
schestowitzThis=rename+marketingJun 10 23:09
_Goblinah...yeah I saw that one...Jun 10 23:09
balzacor else they'll keep losing market share and money at an accelerating paceJun 10 23:09
yuhongThis link do not work.Jun 10 23:09
yuhong 10 23:09
mib_di40yaHave a nice day Roy, keep on drinkin' that Kool-Aid. Remember, we asked you to help us resolve the issues.Jun 10 23:09
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balzacuntil it'll be a ticker tape parade of pink slipsJun 10 23:09
yuhongThis one does.Jun 10 23:09
yuhongNotice the difference?Jun 10 23:10
schestowitzyuhong: what's the problem?Jun 10 23:10
schestowitzThey did the shilling spielJun 10 23:10
schestowitzShame on them tooJun 10 23:10
schestowitzSony did tooJun 10 23:10
schestowitzAnd Microsoft of courseJun 10 23:10
yuhongBut they at least apologized.Jun 10 23:10
schestowitzBelkin quite recently... let it ruined their brandJun 10 23:10
schestowitzyuhong: HAHA!Jun 10 23:10
schestowitzApologisedJun 10 23:10
schestowitzWhy?Jun 10 23:10
schestowitzCause they got CAUGHT?Jun 10 23:10
schestowitzA lot of murderers apologise too... not that I compare the two violationsJun 10 23:11
yuhongBut look, the link on this page about the astroturfing by Google is broken.Jun 10 23:11
yuhong 10 23:11
yuhongThe mistake is simple, it is an apostrophe.Jun 10 23:11
schestowitzMicrosoft never regretted the OOXML bribes... it only regretted that it let itself be caught red-handedJun 10 23:11
yuhongRight, compare that with Google.Jun 10 23:12
yuhong"Google’s Cutts Apologizes For Paid Post Snafu"Jun 10 23:12
yuhongThis link is broken.Jun 10 23:12
yuhongAnd the mistake is simple.Jun 10 23:13
ThistleWebhey, it works for MPs on expense fraud "whoopsie, that was an accounting error, I've graciously agreed to pay it back, let's move on and not tell the cops shall we?"Jun 10 23:13
yuhongI deleted an apostrophe and it worked.Jun 10 23:13
schestowitzCisco Developer Contest: the ten finalists < >. cisco PR and self service (make apps for Cisco, for free)Jun 10 23:13
yuhongAt least Google is better than MS.Jun 10 23:14
mib_331k89Ladies and Gentlemen, your Linux community: Advocates of Freedom disagree with them.Jun 10 23:15
schestowitzyuhong: fixed now, thanksJun 10 23:16
ThistleWebhave Microsoft ever admited paid shills and appologised?Jun 10 23:16
schestowitzYesJun 10 23:16
schestowitzTo me evenJun 10 23:16
_Goblinhave MS appologized for anything?Jun 10 23:16
schestowitzTheir Main TEJun 10 23:16
schestowitz_Goblin: for getting caughtJun 10 23:16
ThistleWebkJun 10 23:16
_Goblin?Jun 10 23:17
schestowitzIf you don't get caught, why apologise (MS motto)Jun 10 23:17
_GoblinlolJun 10 23:17
yuhongCompare with Google, which caught it themselves.Jun 10 23:17
_GoblinI never got a sorry from AndreJun 10 23:17
ThistleWebyuhong: that's what I was thinkingJun 10 23:17
schestowitz 10 23:17
yuhongBut MS is still doing it.Jun 10 23:18
_Goblinthat to me was a stupid shill.  Recieve a free laptop and then stick a photo of yourself with the laptop on the net...Jun 10 23:18
ThistleWebGoogle are mixed for me, they do some good stuff, but also some data mining stuff that put me off their productsJun 10 23:18
schestowitzWhy did MS kick its CIO?Jun 10 23:18
schestowitzThey never said whyJun 10 23:18
yuhongWhile Google caught it themselves.Jun 10 23:18
schestowitzProbably some crime they would not discloseJun 10 23:18
yuhongGoogle is not perfect.Jun 10 23:18
schestowitzThistleWeb: but they have comic graphicsJun 10 23:19
ThistleWeblolJun 10 23:19
schestowitzKind of distracts you from the heavy metal that does all the opsJun 10 23:19
ThistleWebGoogle seem to have a carbon-neutral approach to evil, so some evil but balance it with doing the equivalent amount of goodJun 10 23:20
ThistleWebcarbon-offsetting*Jun 10 23:20
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[davidgerard] "EWe strongly suggest you do NOT discuss this with others, especially patients." O rly. 10 23:20
ThistleWebor evil-offsetting if you willJun 10 23:20
schestowitz"We're not evil" 10 23:20
schestowitz"we play our toys" 10 23:21
yuhongBelkin's incident was interesting, as it involves using Amazon's own Mechanical Turk to pollute Amazon's own reviews.Jun 10 23:21
ThistleWebSOC is a great thingJun 10 23:21
schestowitz"ooooh oooooh, me so cutie... " 10 23:21
yuhongGoogle is not perfect, but still far better than MS.Jun 10 23:21
yuhongfar far better.Jun 10 23:21
splosion_POI: the original evil quote was actually "Do no evil". Some bastard blogger paraphrased it as "Don't be evil" and that's the version that stuck. Somewhat irrelevant, but the more you know!Jun 10 23:23
schestowitz 10 23:23
schestowitzYes, "do know evil?" is another old oneJun 10 23:23
Carl_Rover2k12I see that M$ trying to cut expenses on shipping and retailing by moving more apps to coudJun 10 23:23
Carl_Rover2k12cloudJun 10 23:23
schestowitzNot only...Jun 10 23:24
Carl_Rover2k12they're phasing out M$ Money in favor of MSN MoneyJun 10 23:24
schestowitzDid you see the latest news..? ;-)Jun 10 23:24
yuhongI know!Jun 10 23:24
schestowitz 10 23:24
Carl_Rover2k12schestowitz: nope I have been busy reading the previousJun 10 23:24
schestowitz,1000000121,39662046,00.htmJun 10 23:24
yuhongGoogle is not perfect, but it is far better than MS.Jun 10 23:24
_Mutex_the've been doing that for yearsJun 10 23:24
schestowitz"Microsoft has spun out an intellectual property business unit it acquired two years ago, apparently to control the company's costs." 10 23:24
yuhongBTW, on why MS is evil, I found this very interesting:Jun 10 23:25
yuhong 10 23:25
_Mutex_what they will do is provide you a DVD with all the apps on it, and  you'll have to pay to enable the different installs, thats been happening for years as wellJun 10 23:25
_Mutex_I dont think MS is any more evil than the US housing banks for example, or the previous administrationJun 10 23:26
Carl_Rover2k12schestowitz: well they probably raped or lack of thereof whatever profits in royalties and damages those IP provided, now they are reading to cast it to the waysideJun 10 23:26
_Mutex_sorry, you have to be smart to be evil..Jun 10 23:26
yuhongSo is Google better than MS in catching and apologizing for the shilling.Jun 10 23:26
Carl_Rover2k12_Mutex_: but M$ has never really changed administrationsJun 10 23:26
balzac 10 23:27
Carl_Rover2k12yuhong: M$ did plenty of apologizing for Xbox360 defectsJun 10 23:27
Carl_Rover2k12yuhong: but at the end of the day never officially doles out the damages for them: 10 23:27
yuhongYes, but so does many other manufacturers and it is kind of unrelated.Jun 10 23:28
yuhongGoogle even penalized Google Japan's own PageRank.Jun 10 23:28
mib_331k89I have a serious question, if I may ask.Jun 10 23:28
_Mutex_yes you may,, do you have another question ?Jun 10 23:29
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mib_331k89This is serious. This is not a trolling question, though it may seem to be. Ever since my first interaction with GNU, I've wondered this.Jun 10 23:29
mib_331k89RMS talks about freedom. But, what about freedom for the developer? Why is a developer who chooses a non-free and closed license bad? My thinking is that he is the one who put his efforts into this. Why can't he decide?Jun 10 23:30
schestowitzbalzac: so not they distract and ruin FSDaily too?Jun 10 23:30
Carl_Rover2k12yuhong: thats like GM's HQ taking funding out of the US subsidiary for a bad job and giving it to the Chinese one for a great oneJun 10 23:31
Carl_Rover2k12yuhong: they are just playing around with their balance sheets, its not really penalizing. Only the courts can do thatJun 10 23:31
_Mutex_I know where you're coming from, and a developer has every freedom to choose to write open source or closed source code.Jun 10 23:31
schestowitzChina could buy GMJun 10 23:31
schestowitzWould it not be fascinating?Jun 10 23:32
Carl_Rover2k12schestowitz: Toyota can nowJun 10 23:32
_Mutex_he can even write closed source code using open source tools and tool chainJun 10 23:32
ThistleWebis it just me or does the term "Linux Youth" sound very similar to the "Hitler Youth"?Jun 10 23:32
Carl_Rover2k12schestowitz: fact is they won'tJun 10 23:32
schestowitzIf the Fed could not pay them back the debtJun 10 23:32
yuhongSome do say it is a joke yes, but does MS even do that?Jun 10 23:32
mib_331k89But, why does FSF and RMS make the dev out to be a bad person? That's always bothered me.Jun 10 23:32
schestowitzThey'll sell government-owned assetsJun 10 23:32
schestowitzLiquidate..Jun 10 23:32
splosion_mib_331k89: no licence restricts the original developer.I think most people's problem with the closed stuff is downstream recipients. No one can use the code the original dev made and improve on it, or rip it off, whatever.Jun 10 23:32
schestowitzCarl_Rover2k12: like Fiat, eh/Jun 10 23:32
mib_331k89But why is the dev bad for that?Jun 10 23:33
Carl_Rover2k12schestowitz: if the Fed puts up too many barriers and requirements for Fiat to hold onto Chrysler's pensions and pay they may just leaveJun 10 23:33
splosion_I don't think he is. Why dontcha ask rms?Jun 10 23:33
mib_331k89He created that code. He shouldn't be made out to be a bad person just because he chose to close his codeJun 10 23:33
_Mutex_bothers me too, it just is, but dont worry it's an issue that divides the FOSS community as well, and would be very hard for and "outsider" to even understand the issue, let alone careJun 10 23:33
yuhongThey say it is a joke for a different reason, however.Jun 10 23:33
Carl_Rover2k12schestowitz: but in the end of the day Chrysler is pennies compared to the mess GM needs to sort outJun 10 23:33
schestowitzMore jobs tooJun 10 23:33
schestowitzAuto industry in the US = 3 million jobsJun 10 23:34
yuhongBut again does MS even do that at all?Jun 10 23:34
schestowitzIn the whole chainJun 10 23:34
_Mutex_approx 1% of the population,Jun 10 23:34
_Mutex_not that muchJun 10 23:34
schestowitzIBM is still almost 400k employeesJun 10 23:34
schestowitz[But mostly not in the US]Jun 10 23:34
Carl_Rover2k12schestowitz: Tier 1 and 2 auto parts manufacturers are already falling by the wayside because no Fed is offering to help them during this production lullJun 10 23:34
_Mutex_its a wee bit more than a production lullJun 10 23:35
schestowitzI guess more people will walk.Jun 10 23:35
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[davidgerard] @schestowitz change the name to MS DebtJun 10 23:35
schestowitzHere in the south theres' a stock of cars that cannot be soldJun 10 23:35
mib_331k89May I ask one more question?Jun 10 23:35
schestowitzLike 100k in Plymouth just collecting dustJun 10 23:35
splosion_mib_331k89: shootJun 10 23:36
Carl_Rover2k12schestowitz: the Fed should have just broken up GM and sold off the assets to capital strapped startups like, Fisker, Tesla, Saleen and any other business willing to utilize the factories for automobiles or even gasp* mass transitJun 10 23:36
schestowitzNa..Jun 10 23:36
schestowitzPeople love to drive an oversized ChevyJun 10 23:37
schestowitzLet me find a vidJun 10 23:37
ThistleWebbig car = big some peopleJun 10 23:37
yuhongOn why MS is being evil, I found this very interesting:Jun 10 23:37
yuhong 10 23:37
_Mutex_No they should of kept making bigger and bigger cars, V16'sJun 10 23:37
Carl_Rover2k12schestowitz: not really, any auto company can create an oversized Sedan or truck, International Truck co. is a good exampleJun 10 23:37
Carl_Rover2k12schestowitz: its about keeping an oversized "historic" landmarkJun 10 23:37
schestowitzCarl_Rover2k12: one of these: 10 23:38
mib_331k89What is so bad about what Novell did? Okay, I agree software patents shouldn't exists, but beyond that, what's the big deal with an MS deal? Novell didn't start as a Linux company. How did they "sell out" if they only bought SuSE to make money, not for ethical or ideological stuff. Is it right to hold them to the FOSS standards if they didn't get intoJun 10 23:38
schestowitzI can't recall which says whatJun 10 23:38
schestowitzNo search for speech in vieo, y'know/Jun 10 23:38
schestowitz*videoJun 10 23:38
mib_331k89the business for FOSS reasons. They are in the business of making money. the MS deal made them money.Jun 10 23:38
Carl_Rover2k12schestowitz: what exactly is history, past events written or spoken by a person's point of view?Jun 10 23:39
mib_331k89Besides, interoperatbility, in my opinion, is needed. Without it, I don't see Linux ever being adopted by the masses. I realize that you probably disagree with me. And that's fine. I understand.Jun 10 23:39
mib_331k89I just would like to understand your view better. The big thing to me is holding them to a standard they weren't in the business of trying to meet.Jun 10 23:40
schestowitzCarl_Rover2k12: yes, or observationsJun 10 23:40
schestowitzBut they depend on viewpoinJun 10 23:40
ThistleWebmib_331k89: they legitimised a non-existent M$ claim by acknowledging it, which Microsoft can then use as "hey Novell saw it, they believe, you best believe too"Jun 10 23:40
splosion_mib_331k89: I think the main gripe is that for years, Microsoft actively tried to destroy Linux. By funding the SCO Lawsuit, and by patent threats. By entering into a patent agreement, Novell legitimized Microsoft's patent claim. Patents which most people felt to be bogus. People feel betrayed by this decisionJun 10 23:40
yuhongAnd on Windows 7's laptop gifting, how long does the quid quo pro really last?Jun 10 23:40
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] @davidgerard: which name?Jun 10 23:40
schestowitzI'm reminded of some talks about journos who were brough by US soliders to see what they 'needed' to seeJun 10 23:40
yuhong"expect him to say nice thing about MS in the *future*"Jun 10 23:41
schestowitzSo you grab some English-speaking reporter for a tour in say.. Guantanamo... all intended to document particular aspectsJun 10 23:41
mib_331k89Right, but from what I've seen, in the last few years, their attitude towards open source has changed. And I can understand skeptisim.Jun 10 23:41
yuhongIn the future?Jun 10 23:41
yuhonghow long does the quid quo pro really last?Jun 10 23:41
mib_331k89But, it is possible for a company to change direction based on the market. If the market is leaning towards OS, there is no doubt that MS would start to legitimally move in that direction.Jun 10 23:41
splosion_mib_331k89: If Linux wins, Microsoft loses. Like you say, they're in the business of making money. Microsoft are against FOSS and Linux by definition. they are a competitor and they need to pay the bills.Jun 10 23:42
mib_331k89And, yes, I can see that there's a good chance that MS is just trying to bait Novell, but, what if they're not?Jun 10 23:42
ThistleWebmib_331k89: M$ are not against free software, the free software that allows them to take it, close it off, modify it and use it to help vendor lock in. They can't stand GPL because it forbids them from doing thatJun 10 23:42
mib_331k89Not necessairily.Jun 10 23:42
ThistleWebthey haven't changedJun 10 23:42
ThistleWebthey will never changeJun 10 23:42
mib_331k89I do not see MS going anywhere. Even if Linux makes great headway on the market, MS isn't leaving.Jun 10 23:43
ThistleWebthey will play all sorts of PR games to dance with anti-trust ordersJun 10 23:43
yuhongNever? I would not go that far, but here is a quote from AskWoody.Jun 10 23:43
_Mutex_except MS release code under the GPLJun 10 23:43
mib_331k89The proof is in other products. How many people own two of similar things from different companies?Jun 10 23:43
ThistleWebthey will adopt all sorts of stuff like Office Open (sounds a lot like Open Office huh) to confuse peopleJun 10 23:43
mib_331k89MS is relied on too heavily to go anywhere.Jun 10 23:43
_Mutex_MS are dammed if they do and dammed if they dont i think is what mib is refering too.Jun 10 23:43
splosion_mib_331k89: personally, I think Microsoft will try to make some money with software licences for stuff that runs on Linux. Mono is one way of doing this. Whether or not they will use it as a trojan horse to attack Linux from within remains to be seen. We'll just have to wait and see.Jun 10 23:43
_Mutex_it would not matter what MS did, in someone eyes it would be wrongJun 10 23:44
yuhong"But also consider the corporate culture that allows such blatant acts of hubris to take place. Repeatedly.Jun 10 23:44
yuhongThe old Microsoft is with us still."Jun 10 23:44
mib_331k89What I mean is that MS is going to fight competitors, but there also comes a time when a company may realize that they have to work with their competitors to make money (i.e. look at airline alliances).Jun 10 23:44
ThistleWebeach time they are caught they seek new ways to continue while "looking" like they stoppedJun 10 23:44
yuhongAnd the culture is worse than hubris. There is also dishonesty.Jun 10 23:44
mib_331k89I don't believe the MS will attempt to destroy Linux.Jun 10 23:45
_GoblinlolJun 10 23:45
yuhongThistleWeb: Yep, does Google do that.Jun 10 23:45
yuhongThistleWeb: Yep, does Google do that?Jun 10 23:45
ThistleWebmib_331k89: then you are either naieve or a shillJun 10 23:45
splosion_mib_331k89: it's a possibility, sure. But you can't blame people for being suspicious. There is every reason to be suspicious. STill, it's just a matter of time. The truth will out, eventuallyJun 10 23:45
mib_331k89I see MS using Linux to help them. It can become a symbiosisJun 10 23:45
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[davidgerard] @schestowitz MS Money. I'm writing the notnews right now.Jun 10 23:45
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[davidgerard] @schestowitz where/what's the full list of MS products killed this year?Jun 10 23:45
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_Goblinyep...what plane of existance are you living on?Jun 10 23:45
_Mutex_you want to hope its not "just a matter of time" Linux/UNIX has been around for 40 years Windows 20, if OS's have a lifespan Linnux is the oldieJun 10 23:46
schestowitz"One of the risks of using a commercial OS for embedded systems like ATM machines: it's easier to write malware against it" 10 23:47
mib_331k89Linux has not been around 40 years.Jun 10 23:47
mib_331k89UNIX has, but Linux != UNIXJun 10 23:47
mib_piuqy3That statement is an insult to Unix.Jun 10 23:47
_Goblinmib: Are you from 10 23:47
_Mutex_Linux is "Unix like" and "almost" fully POSIX compliantJun 10 23:47
yuhongBut though Unix's evolution they maintained backward compatiblity.Jun 10 23:47
mib_piuqy3Mutex: so?Jun 10 23:48
mib_331k89"almost" != fullyJun 10 23:48
yuhongHow many V7 Unix programs compile and run on Linux today?Jun 10 23:48
_Mutex_and your right, Linux aobu t 20 years, UNIX 40 years, MS 25 years ishJun 10 23:48
mib_piuqy3Well, actuallyJun 10 23:48
yuhongLeopard got a UNIX 03 certification from the Open Group.Jun 10 23:48
mib_piuqy3NT isn't 25 years old.Jun 10 23:48
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yuhongNT is more than 15 years old.Jun 10 23:49
_Mutex_that depends on how posix compliant Linux isJun 10 23:49
_Mutex_MS isJun 10 23:49
yuhongLinux is *less* than 20 years old.Jun 10 23:49
mib_piuqy3Linux is not Unix.Jun 10 23:49
splosion_DaemonFC: If you're too lame to use ffmpeg to encode, use winff. It's a graphical frontend for ffmpeg and it does h.264 conversions really well. Oh and you can multithread it across your processor cores to speed it up. SO THEREJun 10 23:49
mib_piuqy318 years, to be exact.Jun 10 23:49
yuhongLinux is Unix-like.Jun 10 23:50
splosion_DaemonFC: and also, hiJun 10 23:50
_Mutex_liux 1.0 is 17 year sold but 1.0 was not the first linuxJun 10 23:50
mib_331k89My original point was that I find it counterproductive to be upset with a company for doing what a company does (i.e. Novell). They were making money to make the stockholders happy And they succeeded.Jun 10 23:50
mib_piuqy318, I believeJun 10 23:50
yuhongWhile Mac OS X Leopard got a unix 03 certification from the Open Group.Jun 10 23:50
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] @davidgerard: it's in The Reg somewhereJun 10 23:50
mib_331k8918Jun 10 23:50
_Mutex_ok 1.0 was 18Jun 10 23:50
mib_piuqy3Actually, I think 1.0 is like 15 years old.Jun 10 23:50
mib_piuqy30.1 or whatever is 18.Jun 10 23:50
DaemonFCthere's nothing wrong with being stupid and typing really arcane commands to do a whole file at a timeJun 10 23:50
DaemonFCnow is there?Jun 10 23:51
yuhongCorrect.Jun 10 23:51
DaemonFC:)Jun 10 23:51
mib_331k89Actually, 1.0 is 15 years oldJun 10 23:51
ThistleWebmib_331k89: all companies do that, it's HOW they do it that counts. Microsoft also "just make money for their shareholders"Jun 10 23:51
yuhongLinux 0.99 as I remember lasted 1 and a half years.Jun 10 23:51
_Mutex_ok so its nearly as old as MS, and rides on the sholders of 40 YO UNIX, im glad we sorted that :)Jun 10 23:51
mib_331k89Okay, so why take one of the most successful Linux companies and boycott them?Jun 10 23:51
DaemonFCyeah, they never wanted to call it 1.0 because some other problem would come up and block itJun 10 23:51
DaemonFCthat was actually kind of funnyJun 10 23:52
schestowitzHmm.. nice Gnome theme: 10 23:52
yuhongActually, it is about 50 years old.Jun 10 23:52
mib_331k89I could understand it if it was Red Hat, as Red Hat got into the business just for Linux, but Novell did not.Jun 10 23:52
ThistleWebit's debatable if Novell did succeed given the fact that they are pariahs now in the Linux community because of that dealJun 10 23:52
mib_331k89Novell is older than Linux is.Jun 10 23:52
yuhongActually less.Jun 10 23:52
splosion_mib_331k89: Let's take that example to the extreme. Microsoft kill a bunch of babies. Turns out it's a good way of making money or something. It's good for their shareholders, but are you happy with what they're doing? OK, it's a stupid extreme example, but the actions of corporations are above good and evil. There is no moral decision in business.Jun 10 23:52
yuhongWell, I know, and that is another mess altogether.Jun 10 23:52
mib_331k89Yes, it is stupid because we're not talking about anything illegalJun 10 23:52
mib_piuqy3Right, because microsoft could legally kill babies "facepalm"Jun 10 23:53
splosion_people on the other hand, have morals. Too many of them. And people object to stuff they find morally wrong. Microsoft are known to do these thingsJun 10 23:53
_Mutex_apart from us that remember NetwareJun 10 23:53
splosion_mib_piuqy3: yeah I know it's a stupid exampleJun 10 23:53
ThistleWebwho know if Microsofts claims are legal or not, they wont disclose themJun 10 23:53
mib_piuqy3"Microsoft are known to do these things"?Jun 10 23:53
mib_piuqy3Microsoft kill babies?!Jun 10 23:53
ThistleWebyet they use them as ammo / extrortion to make moneyJun 10 23:54
_Mutex_splosion tell that to the guy that just went to prison in the US for that ponsie thingJun 10 23:54
yuhongWe need to move away from "shareholder value" and dehumanization.Jun 10 23:54
splosion_They do thing people morally object to. Not killing babiesJun 10 23:54
splosion_Corporations have no morals by definition. People do. That's why people get unhappy with corporations sometimes. That's the pointJun 10 23:54
DaemonFCschestowitz: When a guy with his site icon depicting a marijuana plant starts talking about beautiful themes for UbuntuJun 10 23:55
_Mutex_some people morally object to me eating meat too,  does not mean its wrongJun 10 23:55
DaemonFCyou can't help but to laughJun 10 23:55
yuhongRight, but corporations are led by people however.Jun 10 23:55
ThistleWeb_Mutex_: you eat meat? NO WAY!!!!Jun 10 23:55
mib_piuqy3People who have no morals. Your point is lame.Jun 10 23:55
ThistleWebnah, just kiddinJun 10 23:55
yuhongPeople that have morals however.Jun 10 23:56
yuhongPeople that have morals.Jun 10 23:56
_Mutex_I guess I should be shunned, boycotted, and called evil I know,  I also ride horses !!!Jun 10 23:56
splosion_mib_piuqy3: Corporations exist to make money for their shareholders. That governs their actions, not any higher ethicsJun 10 23:56
yuhongAnd that comes another mess.Jun 10 23:56
mib_piuqy3People run companies. People make the rules at these companies, therefore it's the morals of people.Jun 10 23:56
yuhong"shareholder value", dehumanization, "it is just business".Jun 10 23:57
yuhongI am going to dig up articles on all of these.Jun 10 23:57
ThistleWeb_Mutex_: you know "eating meat" and "riding horses" could mean different things on different channels ;)Jun 10 23:57
mib_piuqy3People make the rules. People decide what is morally right for the company.Jun 10 23:57
_Mutex_that is true, and they are liable for their actions and deeds as wellJun 10 23:57
splosion_mib_piuqy3: but if you were the CEO of a major company and did what you felt was morally right all the time, then you'd go out of business, fastJun 10 23:57
schestowitzBeranger goes angry again. 10 23:57
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_Mutex_I didnt think this was "that " kind of a channel LOLJun 10 23:57
mib_piuqy3So they decide that it's morally alright then?Jun 10 23:57
mib_piuqy3It's still morally wrong on the persons part.Jun 10 23:57
ThistleWeb_Mutex_: it's not, hence we get what you mean :PJun 10 23:58
yuhongI know, that was an unfortunate result of the "shareholder value" movement.Jun 10 23:58
yuhong 10 23:58
_Mutex_thats right the "morallity police" will come and get you,Jun 10 23:59
splosion_mib_piuqy3: and even if the managers of companies had all the morals in the world, people would still be annoyed with them. People tend to disagree about a lot of stuff. Morals includedJun 10 23:59
yuhongYep, no one is perfect.Jun 10 23:59

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