IRC: #boycottnovell @ FreeNode: June 12th, 2009

schestowitzAhhhhhhhhh...Jun 11 23:41
schestowitzWhat is this Fink guy doing?Jun 11 23:41
schestowitzhttps://lists.ubuntu.com/archives/ubuntu-devel-discuss/2009-June/thread.html#8447Jun 11 23:41
schestowitzHe's messing up the Ubuntu listsJun 11 23:41
schestowitzThis incites people against usJun 11 23:41
*DaemonXP (n=Ryan@c-67-173-86-85.hsd1.in.comcast.net) has joined #boycottnovellJun 11 23:42
DaemonXP"Microsoft has confirmed plans to ship a version of Windows 7 without Internet Explorer. Windows 7 E, as the browserless system will be called, will be made available throughout Europe starting on October 22. The decision to pull IE from Windows comes as a result of an ongoing European Commission case surrounding anti-competition laws and Microsoft's bundling of software."Jun 11 23:42
DaemonXPhttp://www.pcworld.com/article/166540/windows_7_without_internet_explorer_microsoft_explains.htmlJun 11 23:42
DaemonXPwonder if I can acquire a copyJun 11 23:43
MinceRthey're most likely going to sell it at the same price as the one with ieJun 11 23:43
MinceRit's just smoke and mirrorsJun 11 23:43
DaemonXPfree upgrade from normal version?Jun 11 23:43
DaemonXPwowJun 11 23:43
DaemonXP;)Jun 11 23:43
_Mutex_MS does not make any money off IE anyway, they give it away, so shipping without it is no skin off their nose.Jun 11 23:44
schestowitzHmmm... wierd one...Jun 11 23:44
schestowitz*weirdJun 11 23:44
schestowitz"Roy Schestowitz and Richard Stallman say that MONO is poisonware. areJun 11 23:44
schestowitzthey not respectable?"Jun 11 23:44
schestowitzhttps://lists.ubuntu.com/archives/ubuntu-devel-discuss/2009-June/008578.htmlJun 11 23:44
schestowitzPutting me along with the other R.S.?Jun 11 23:44
schestowitzRMS didn't call it poisonware and neither did IJun 11 23:45
schestowitzThat's [h]omer's wordJun 11 23:45
_Mutex_I was going to say if RMS did not like it, he could reject it for the GPLJun 11 23:45
DaemonXPWell, they just basically proved that they lied to the US DOJJun 11 23:45
DaemonXPof course it was obviousJun 11 23:45
DaemonXPbut now they're flaunting itJun 11 23:45
_Mutex_how did they prove that ?Jun 11 23:46
ThistleWebhave you guys listened to the latest Ubuntu UK podcast>Jun 11 23:46
DaemonXPThey told the court that if they removed IE, it would damage WindowsJun 11 23:47
DaemonXPand the court let them off with thaJun 11 23:47
DaemonXP*thatJun 11 23:47
_Mutex_that was years ago,Jun 11 23:47
ThistleWeban interview with a couple of Ubuntu peeps where an interesting opinion on Mono caught my earJun 11 23:47
schestowitzhttp://www.reddit.com/r/linux/comments/8rmv5/mono_bashers_take_things_too_far_on_ubuntu_lists/Jun 11 23:47
schestowitzDamn. People ruin our reputationJun 11 23:48
schestowitzSee those message where he threatens to contact people's bossesJun 11 23:48
ThistleWebit solves a problem, ie that if you already have .net apps and you want them to run on Linux. If you don't have that problem and you're creating new apps, don't use .net / monoJun 11 23:48
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DaemonXP"I think I will sue Apple for $1B. I want to see Apple remove Itunes and Leopard from their operating system before it ships to the EU... That would be fair!!"Jun 11 23:49
DaemonXPfrom he commentsJun 11 23:49
DaemonXPremove Leopard?Jun 11 23:49
DaemonXP:PJun 11 23:49
*starcannon has quit ("Leaving")Jun 11 23:50
_Mutex_no remove OSX from their computers so that users can installwhat they like, after all thats lock-in !!Jun 11 23:50
DaemonXPhow the hell do you get 500 people all defending MSIE?Jun 11 23:51
DaemonXPIt's not like you CAN'T install it yourselfJun 11 23:51
schestowitzYou forget abuseJun 11 23:51
schestowitzMr XP defends the MS party line, as usualJun 11 23:52
schestowitzGlyn rebutted thisJun 11 23:52
schestowitzThe EU commision deals with a criminal companyJun 11 23:52
_Mutex_OEM's are not going to put PC"s in customers hands without a web browser, this is an OEM thing, nothing to do with users.Jun 11 23:52
schestowitzwhich was found gulity of breaking the law to leverage IEJun 11 23:52
schestowitzAnd the judge in the case called Microsoft "criminals"Jun 11 23:52
DaemonXPno, the people in the commentsJun 11 23:52
schestowitzSo you must look at the contextJun 11 23:52
DaemonXPare all mad that Microsoft has to offer you the choice of what will be installedJun 11 23:52
schestowitzNo, comments mean zilchJun 11 23:52
DaemonXPfishy much?Jun 11 23:52
schestowitzMS pays people to commentJun 11 23:53
schestowitzit's called perception managementJun 11 23:53
schestowitzAnd they use dead people, tooJun 11 23:53
schestowitzThey also have fake journalistsJun 11 23:53
schestowitzWho are MS activistsJun 11 23:53
DaemonXPborrowed them from the RepublicansJun 11 23:53
schestowitzANyhoo..Jun 11 23:53
DaemonXPgot them on loan for 4 years?Jun 11 23:53
DaemonXPyou'd think they'd hire people to post that could express an entire sentence conciselyJun 11 23:54
schestowitzTrouble Brews With Ubuntu Users Mailing ListJun 11 23:54
DaemonXPthey must pay off-duty Nigerian scammers to write those commentsJun 11 23:54
schestowitz"Abuse. Intimidation. And support. You can find all that and more on the Ubuntu Users mailing list. An official support channel, the mailing list is where new users are directed by Canonical for technical support and discussions about new features and ideas. But there are some key problems with the mailing list."Jun 11 23:54
schestowitzhttp://www.workswithu.com/2009/06/10/trouble-brews-with-ubuntu-users-mailing-list/Jun 11 23:55
schestowitzIs this a reference to the Mono thing, per chance?Jun 11 23:55
schestowitztacone: ?Jun 11 23:55
DaemonXPschestowitz: Yeah, they have a "Council" that decides everythingJun 11 23:55
DaemonXPI think it's some kind of hive mindJun 11 23:55
DaemonXPcolored brownJun 11 23:55
taconeschestowitz: ?Jun 11 23:55
schestowitzI want nothing to do with that Fink dude.Jun 11 23:56
schestowitzhe's disrupting their mailing listsJun 11 23:56
_Mutex_so is ubuntu becoming the bad boy of foss ?Jun 11 23:56
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] Abuse. Intimidation. And support. < http://ping.fm/f1HVO >Jun 11 23:56
DaemonXPit's actually far less torturous to stay with Vista than try to get any help from the Ubuntu communityJun 11 23:56
DaemonXP:PJun 11 23:56
schestowitzFedora 11 http://aronzak.wordpress.com/2009/06/11/fedora-11/Jun 11 23:56
schestowitzSome apparent issues in Fedora 11.. "I’ll confess, i used to like installing new versions of Linux. I used to find it exciting, starting up into a new system, with a new look. Unfortunately, the excitement tends to wear off when you realise that there is no perfect system. In reality, The biggest difference between many versions of Linux is the desktop background. Oh, except and sometimes you strike a jackpot with an OS that hasJun 11 23:56
schestowitzthings that don’t work."Jun 11 23:56
DaemonXPhehJun 11 23:57
_Mutex_has mark stepped in yet ?Jun 11 23:57
DaemonXPFedora has never been known to ship a fully working system on release dayJun 11 23:57
taconeschestowitz: not mono, just a n00b flame.Jun 11 23:57
DaemonXPthey don't care what they break as long as it was out of treeJun 11 23:57
taconewell, the author refers to many flames. the last i could find is something like 'americans vs frenchs'Jun 11 23:58
DaemonXPUbuntu is like a microowaved burrito, it's easy and cheap, but then come the cramps, bloating, and diarrheaJun 11 23:59
DaemonXP*MicrowavedJun 11 23:59
taconeschestowitz: still that post is utterly stupid, as evidenced in http://www.stefanoforenza.com/abuse-intimidation-and-support/Jun 11 23:59
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taconeschestowitz: jo shields responded to carla's invite: http://blog.linuxtoday.com/blog/2009/06/why-mono-is-des.htmlJun 12 00:00
DaemonXPschestowitz: Microsoft knows it is walking a fine line between pissing off the users enough to go find something else, of breaking the law, and trying to DRM everythingJun 12 00:04
DaemonXPif it wasn't for the first two, I'm sure Windows would be far worse than it isJun 12 00:04
schestowitztacone: yes, I saw the context after reading your feedJun 12 00:04
schestowitzPalladium seems to have gone for nowJun 12 00:04
schestowitzBeen spoken about for yearsJun 12 00:04
schestowitzNot even the DRM vision of Visduh caught onJun 12 00:05
schestowitzAnd MS is running out of time....Jun 12 00:05
DaemonXPideally from Microsoft's POV, XP would have been Palldium OS, and the user wouldn't have been allowed to install any competing software on WindowsJun 12 00:05
schestowitz"Security as a lockin," called it chairman BilGJun 12 00:05
schestowitzMS got palladium... in their back enedJun 12 00:05
schestowitz*endJun 12 00:06
DaemonXPyeah, I never really liked the sound of Palladium even when I didn't really know what DRM wasJun 12 00:06
schestowitz[i.e. kicked in the arse]Jun 12 00:06
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] Linux 2.6.30 Gets Faster Boot < http://ping.fm/uBpAo >Jun 12 00:06
schestowitzPalladium should sue themJun 12 00:06
schestowitzWho owns the trademarks?Jun 12 00:06
DaemonXPto use Windows, you need to hide about everything that came with itJun 12 00:06
DaemonXPand go find something else to use for that taskJun 12 00:06
schestowitzThey have already ruined "Vista" and almost "Fiji"Jun 12 00:06
schestowitzSome innocent projects like VistA got caught in the crossfireJun 12 00:07
DaemonXPI don't think Windows 7 will be more restrictive than VistaJun 12 00:07
DaemonXPbut their next one might beJun 12 00:07
schestowitzWell,, Vista 7 IS VistaJun 12 00:08
schestowitzLess restrictive... maybe... less popups (UAC)Jun 12 00:08
schestowitzThe pseudo-security paradigmJun 12 00:09
schestowitz"You do unsafe things... Yes... no? Ignore? Cancel? Allow?Jun 12 00:09
DaemonXPthe reason nobody complained about Vista DRM as the FSF was out shouting that the sky was falling is because very few users ever deal with Product Activation or own high definition disc drivesJun 12 00:09
DaemonXPMS didn't add anything to Vista that made it clamp down on normal DVDsJun 12 00:09
schestowitz"First Look at Opera 10: Can it Make a Dent in the Desktop?" http://www.linux-mag.com/id/7360/Jun 12 00:09
DaemonXPso nobody noticed anythingJun 12 00:09
schestowitzVista7 will fail tooJun 12 00:10
schestowitzMore soJun 12 00:10
schestowitzBecause of the economyJun 12 00:10
schestowitzWait and watchJun 12 00:10
DaemonXPthe $50 upgrade is there for just that reasonJun 12 00:10
schestowitzHow Miss Peggy installs it on some Celeron and shoutsJun 12 00:10
DaemonXPto lure people in who otherwise amay not buy itJun 12 00:10
schestowitz$50 can't make MS carry onJun 12 00:11
DaemonXPnotice there's no cheap version of 7 Ultimate?Jun 12 00:11
schestowitzThey only get paid in rich countries anywayJun 12 00:11
DaemonXPor the Enterprise EditionJun 12 00:11
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] OpensSlaris running our of time (Oracle's shadow) and looks for a niche.. http://ping.fm/WoJwmJun 12 00:11
schestowitzDesktop Linux: The Next Generation http://www.dwasifar.com/?p=617Jun 12 00:11
DaemonXPthere's no profit in selling consumer OS softwareJun 12 00:11
schestowitzToo much competitionJun 12 00:11
schestowitzPrice wiseJun 12 00:12
DaemonXPApple uses it as a tie in to sell really overpriced PCsJun 12 00:12
_Mutex_there are as many changes and differences between Vista and Win 7 as there was between XP and Vista !!. its all a progression, just like linux 2.4, or 2.6 or whatever.Jun 12 00:12
schestowitzNo manufacturingJun 12 00:12
schestowitzApple will do OKJun 12 00:12
schestowitzThey doon't reeall charge for the ISJun 12 00:12
schestowitz*OSJun 12 00:12
DaemonXPexactlJun 12 00:12
schestowitzSure, you can buy an upgradeJun 12 00:12
DaemonXP*exactlyJun 12 00:12
schestowitzBut that's not where the cash cow livesJun 12 00:12
DaemonXPoverpriced hardwareJun 12 00:12
schestowitzThe meadow is a hardware with price doubledJun 12 00:12
DaemonXPfrom product tie inJun 12 00:12
schestowitzAnd blessed by JobsJun 12 00:12
DaemonXPpeople buy the expensive machines to get their softwareJun 12 00:12
DaemonXPI think Microsoft is just trying to break even with the consumer versions of Windows 7Jun 12 00:13
DaemonXPand hoping they do better in Corporate versionsJun 12 00:13
EDavidBurgthey tout their software. they don't brag about specs because they want people to think their computers are magical boxesJun 12 00:13
schestowitzAnother poor review... http://superphysics.awardspace.com/2009/06/10/fedora-11-review-kde-desktop-emphasis/Jun 12 00:13
schestowitzF11 does not score wellJun 12 00:13
schestowitzF10 was goodJun 12 00:13
schestowitzF9 was also goodJun 12 00:13
DaemonXPF11 feels very rushedJun 12 00:14
DaemonXPand incompleteJun 12 00:14
schestowitzWould help *buntu..Jun 12 00:14
DaemonXPF11 should have defaulted to ext3Jun 12 00:14
DaemonXPI had partitioning errors til I gave up and partitioned manuallyJun 12 00:15
DaemonXPthen they have a 6-bit Nvidia RPM in RPM FusionJun 12 00:16
DaemonXPbut no 32-bit libraries for itJun 12 00:16
_Mutex_software is supposed to progressively get better, not worse !!,  :)Jun 12 00:16
DaemonXPso no 32-bit software can use hardware accelerationJun 12 00:16
DaemonXP*64-bitJun 12 00:16
DaemonXPevery distribution has good and bad releasesJun 12 00:17
schestowitz_Mutex_: like Vista?Jun 12 00:18
DaemonXPit's much more likely to happen when you hold yourself to a strict 6 month time tableJun 12 00:18
schestowitzVista *is* better... to the RIAA ;-)Jun 12 00:18
DaemonXPand don't account for things going wrongJun 12 00:18
schestowitzOK, I'lll prepare some linksJun 12 00:18
_Mutex_I have no real opinion about Operating systems, just so long as my apps work im happy.Jun 12 00:18
DaemonXPVista has nothing in it that does any molestation of your CDs, your CD rippingJun 12 00:19
DaemonXPor your MP3 playbackJun 12 00:19
DaemonXPthe people who hit problems with Vista DRM will be triggering it with Blu Ray discsJun 12 00:19
DaemonXPand I don't really careJun 12 00:19
DaemonXPall any DRM will do is stop a few lamers from making unlicensed copiesJun 12 00:20
DaemonXPit will never stop anyone that is smart or dedicated enoughJun 12 00:20
_Mutex_as for software I take linus's view, whatever works for me is what Ill use.Jun 12 00:21
taconelol ! I don't believe she accepted the entry http://linuxtoday.com/news_story.php3?ltsn=2009-06-11-029-35-OP-CYJun 12 00:21
ThistleWebwith DRM I reckon the entertainment industry were too well sold on it's effectiveness on solving their issues and refuse to accept the reality that it's doing the opposite in realityJun 12 00:22
DaemonXPI liked what Linus said..... "When you tell someone that you wrote something that crashed Windows, they just state at you blankly and say 'I got those with the system, and they were FREE!'"Jun 12 00:22
DaemonXPschestowitz: Opera 10 got smallerJun 12 00:23
DaemonXPWindows version anyway is down in size by over 30%Jun 12 00:23
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_Mutex_Your using Vista DaemonXP how often does it crash on you ?Jun 12 00:27
DaemonXPit has happened beforeJun 12 00:28
DaemonXPuhhhm, probably 4-5 times over 3 yearsJun 12 00:28
DaemonXPon two systemsJun 12 00:28
_Mutex_really,Jun 12 00:28
DaemonXPcrashing isn't really as much of a problem as it used to beJun 12 00:29
_Mutex_thats what ive found, since XP, ive not seen a BSOD since NT 4Jun 12 00:29
_Goblinthats not what forums/chatrooms are saying...Jun 12 00:29
_Goblinthats not what people documenting the BSOD in public places sayJun 12 00:29
DaemonXPI had XP crash on my all the timeJun 12 00:29
DaemonXP*meJun 12 00:29
_Mutex_Sure, but talk to them, they are Linux users who left windows in the Win 95 days, and yes WIn 95 and a POSJun 12 00:30
DaemonXPyou really have to watch what you do with XPJun 12 00:30
DaemonXP9x, there was just no stopping itJun 12 00:30
DaemonXPit would go down at least a few times a dayJun 12 00:30
_Goblinand I found the opposite....Jun 12 00:30
DaemonXPeven from just sitting idleJun 12 00:30
DaemonXP:PJun 12 00:30
_Mutex_Really, I ran it on multiple machines for 8+ years never had a problem, no re-installs, no slow down.Jun 12 00:30
_Mutex_No wonder I kept it for so long,Jun 12 00:30
_GoblinXP was infinately more stable than Vista in my experienceJun 12 00:30
_Goblinand actually is quite good on this netbookJun 12 00:31
_Goblinalbeit slow.Jun 12 00:31
_Mutex_Really, if you can tell me how to break Vista let me know and ill try it,Jun 12 00:31
DaemonXPwere you using signed Vista drivers?Jun 12 00:31
DaemonXPbug in drivers seem to be the leading cause of Vista deathJun 12 00:32
DaemonXP:)Jun 12 00:32
_GoblinVista is still providing issues in my workplace...Jun 12 00:32
_Goblineven the IT dept regrets migrating from XPJun 12 00:32
DaemonXPmehJun 12 00:32
_GoblinVista at work is one of the main reasons I moved to 100% alternatives at home.Jun 12 00:33
DaemonXPXP was more of a monster than Vista ever thought about beingJun 12 00:33
DaemonXPback in 2001, when it was newJun 12 00:33
_Mutex_its not the standard mode, it is very stable, to the point that when windows users see Linux users saying it crashes all the time, prompts them to think "what are they doing wrong "Jun 12 00:33
_Goblinyeah, of course and all those customers who either want to keep it or "downgrade" from Vista to it are wrong are they?Jun 12 00:33
DaemonXP3,200 bug patches laterJun 12 00:33
DaemonXPXP shaped upJun 12 00:34
DaemonXP:)Jun 12 00:34
_GoblinEven MS (IMO) has made an admittion of sorts by pandering to XP users with its XP mode in 7Jun 12 00:34
ThistleWebwhy does "Microsoft should send in the exterminators to exterminate the bugs" lead me to think they'd get the wrong address and target the messengers, and have a different definition of "exterminate" ;)Jun 12 00:34
DaemonXPthe biggest problem was Vist'a overhead on low end systemsJun 12 00:35
DaemonXP*Vista'sJun 12 00:35
_GoblinEvery mainstream magazine that I've read lists Vista as a Microsoft fail.  Users dont like it in my experience and even enterprise has not migrated as quickly as MS would have wanted.Jun 12 00:35
DaemonXPseach indexing and eye candy and the anti-spyware stuff in the backgroundJun 12 00:35
DaemonXPthey overwhelm old systemsJun 12 00:35
_Mutex_Yes, it does have a higher overhead than Win 7 or XP, but its just as crisp in performance, its certainly not sluggish, easily on par or faster than XPJun 12 00:36
ThistleWebit is a lanfmark that many buisnesses who'd usually just resign a new contract with Microsoft when their IT upgrade cycle came in without even looking elsewhere, refused VistaJun 12 00:36
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DaemonXPlargely the people that I hear complaining about Vista being slow should not have all that shit running anywayJun 12 00:36
ThistleWebfor the first time people actually stood back and questioned a Windows upgradeJun 12 00:36
DaemonXPthe search indexer alone can take 90 megs of RAMJun 12 00:37
_Mutex_I always prefer an OS to use as much RAM as is available and increase performance, than leave it free and be sluggishJun 12 00:37
_Mutex_I hate having 4 gig and seeing 1g usedJun 12 00:38
ThistleWebthe problem if you design an OS for new hardware is that the previous XP did everything most people wanted, so they had no reason to go buy a new OS, or even worse a new PC with a new OSJun 12 00:38
ThistleWebXP is good enoughJun 12 00:38
DaemonXPwell, when you have a cache as big as Vista makes, and then load a huge app into RAMJun 12 00:38
_GoblinSo Daemon, what you are saying is that the fault of Vista's sluggishness is the fault of the user and not Microsoft?Jun 12 00:38
DaemonXPit has to purge the cacheJun 12 00:38
DaemonXPwhich turns all of the preloading into cache missesJun 12 00:38
DaemonXPno, not saying thatJun 12 00:38
_Goblinso what are you saying then?Jun 12 00:39
DaemonXPsaying Microsoft should have made Basic not do the search index and a number of other thingsJun 12 00:39
_Goblinif one of the complaints of Vista is sluggishness, whose fault is it?Jun 12 00:39
_Goblinso its Microsofts?Jun 12 00:39
DaemonXPit's a team effortJun 12 00:39
_Goblinah...Jun 12 00:39
_Goblinits everyones fault.Jun 12 00:39
_Goblinsilly me.Jun 12 00:40
DaemonXPMicrosoft pushing an OS that's too heavy on an ignorant user with a sub-par PCJun 12 00:40
ThistleWebto me Vista is an extreme example of bad design, they used to get away with using bloat to sell new hardware but Vista took it way beyond what people previously didn't noticeJun 12 00:40
_Mutex_what if someone complains Linux is sluggish ? same difference, its meaningless, without contextJun 12 00:40
_Goblinthen maybe they should have thought of that before pimping Vista as being compatible on so many specs.Jun 12 00:40
DaemonXPthey could have had the result of the performance scan determine if the search index thingy was on or offJun 12 00:40
DaemonXPthings like thatJun 12 00:40
ThistleWebadded to the fact that there's little real reason to upgrade from XP as it does what most people needJun 12 00:40
DaemonXPso really more Microsoft's faultJun 12 00:40
_Goblinor holding Mojave as a testiment to how great Vista is.Jun 12 00:41
_Goblinnot everyones?Jun 12 00:41
_Mutex_its a non question, its like asking how long is a peice of strongJun 12 00:41
_GoblinI know :)Jun 12 00:41
_Mutex_string*Jun 12 00:42
_GoblinI think the message that was intended was "Its never Microsoft's fault"Jun 12 00:42
_Mutex_oh sorry LOL, ofcourse. (damn my logic)Jun 12 00:42
_Goblindo a google for "microsoft blames" and you will see what I meanJun 12 00:42
_Mutex_damn you booleanJun 12 00:42
DaemonXPwell, it's common knowledge that you need a better PC than they say you doJun 12 00:42
DaemonXP:)Jun 12 00:42
ThistleWebit's amazing how Microsoft have managed to avoid accountability over the yearsJun 12 00:42
_Goblinthats not what some of the court applications are saying.Jun 12 00:43
_Goblinit was not "common knowledge" to them.  that was the problemJun 12 00:43
DaemonXPthey say it will run on "X" specificationsJun 12 00:43
DaemonXPnot "run well"Jun 12 00:43
ThistleWebthey sell a licence to use an OS which will be hosed in minutes if it goes online without third party security software installedJun 12 00:43
DaemonXPno it won'tJun 12 00:43
_Mutex_Thats not quite true,Jun 12 00:43
ThistleWebthey have people convinced that crashes are just normal, and their faultJun 12 00:44
_GoblinDefine "run well"Jun 12 00:44
DaemonXPexactlyJun 12 00:44
DaemonXP;)Jun 12 00:44
_Goblinand like I say, that was the problem.Jun 12 00:44
ThistleWebthey have people convinced that rebooting all the time is normalJun 12 00:44
_Goblinthe definition of run well, was wholly different in Microsofts implication.Jun 12 00:44
ThistleWeband people willingly pay a fortune for this experience, and call it "enterprise ready"Jun 12 00:45
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_GoblinOne thing that Microsoft is very good at is passing the blame.  I wonder how many users (and I am guilty of this) thought that problems with Windows were actually because of something they had done wrong and not Microsoft.Jun 12 00:45
*ChanServ gives channel operator status to schestowitzJun 12 00:46
schestowitzDarn.Jun 12 00:46
schestowitzI had a GPU crashJun 12 00:46
schestowitzVery rare. Never happened beforeJun 12 00:46
schestowitzI overloaded itJun 12 00:46
ThistleWebschestowitz: blame MicrosoftJun 12 00:46
_Goblinbut like I say...Its never Microsofts fault...always someone else.Jun 12 00:46
ThistleWeblolJun 12 00:46
schestowitzAnd 99 days of uptime down the brainJun 12 00:46
schestowitzThistleWeb: no, not reallyJun 12 00:46
EDavidBurgschestowitz: too much porn? :)Jun 12 00:46
schestowitzI opened windows in Knode quicker than the GPU can render themJun 12 00:46
schestowitzIt always drives it mad, but never freezesJun 12 00:47
DaemonXPif you run lots of dodgy software you will have problemsJun 12 00:47
schestowitzAnyhoo, I have to catch up a bitJun 12 00:47
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Papa_ChangoI thought Roy had gone to drown his C.Ronaldo tears :-)Jun 12 00:48
_GoblinPapa is your handle named after an old WWF wrestler?Jun 12 00:48
_Goblinmaybe not then..Jun 12 00:49
Papa_Changohehehe, no, its part of the band's name and the fact that Im older than those damn kids and their loud instruments!Jun 12 00:50
_Goblinlol...I was going to say, if it was, it should be Shango not Chango!Jun 12 00:50
Papa_Changobut I know who you mean... the guy fought also under the name Kamma and The Godfather I think...Jun 12 00:50
_Goblinhad the Ultimate warrior vomitting black goo, if I remember rightly...Jun 12 00:50
Papa_ChangoI think they call it cajun when its all burnt!!Jun 12 00:51
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_Mutex_"Calling for the deaths of Microsoft employees (see comments on Boycott Novell)" hmmJun 12 00:51
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-BNc/#boycottnovell-[davidgerard] NotN: English acquires its millionth word: "bollocks" http://notnews.today.com/?p=516Jun 12 00:52
_Mutex_"or making insinuations about anyone who does not agree with them (see pretty much every news post on Boycott Novell itself) - this is ugly behaviour,"Jun 12 00:53
ThistleWeb_Mutex_: where is this from?Jun 12 00:54
_Goblinlet me guess...Jun 12 00:54
_Goblinlinxxx.xxxJun 12 00:54
_Mutex_http://blog.linuxtoday.com/blog/2009/06/why-mono-is-des.htmlJun 12 00:54
_Goblinoh.Jun 12 00:54
_Goblincomments section I presume?Jun 12 00:55
_Mutex_no towards the bottom of Jo's letterJun 12 00:55
_Mutex_"Until the anti-Mono crowd actually make a contribution to Free Software, they will continue to be treated as cranks - and their questions left unanswered."Jun 12 00:57
fewalol @notnewsJun 12 00:57
_GoblinJo Shields , clever little letter, playing the victim....Jun 12 00:57
_Goblinnot news, bloated and PR.Jun 12 00:58
_Mutex_some of her points are valid,Jun 12 00:58
_Goblinthe fact that the post had to be written says something.Jun 12 00:58
_Mutex_sure does,Jun 12 00:59
fewahttp://notnews.today.com/2009/05/07/debian-forks-glibc-over-drepper/Jun 12 00:59
fewahttp://notnews.today.com/2009/05/05/save-vista-campaign-gathers-momentum/Jun 12 00:59
_GoblinI really couldnt care less about Mono....Jun 12 00:59
ThistleWeb"trying to have people who make positive comments about Mono fired (see recent comments on Ubuntu mailing lists)" maybe some are infringing Microsoft's patented bullying patentsJun 12 00:59
_Mutex_the fact there is an outcry about what is in fact just GPL'd code is odd to meJun 12 00:59
fewait hasn't been as good recentlyJun 12 00:59
_GoblinI have an opinion on it...Jun 12 00:59
_Mutex_thats is so large even more soJun 12 00:59
_Goblinand Jo's contribution comment is meaningless, since myself (and many others) hide behind an anon handle...we could be anybody.Jun 12 01:00
_GoblinJo's letter was a different tone (IMO) to when they posted on BN...rather rude IMO.Jun 12 01:01
_Mutex_if people are getting death threats over what is after all, just software, I dont blame anyone for being carefull, sorry but there are some real crazies around.Jun 12 01:01
_Goblinagreed, death threats and similar are wrong...Jun 12 01:01
_Goblinbut I think people use them to play the victim.Jun 12 01:02
_Goblinlook at the Linxxx.xxx site.....Jun 12 01:02
_Goblintried to make an issue out of an alleged threat...Jun 12 01:02
_Goblinof course quoted out of context and had no legal basis.  That allegation would not have even got past the CPS let alone to court...how silly.Jun 12 01:03
_Mutex_the threat is not alleged if it's been made, it would only be alleged if it was carried out and you were accusing someone before convictionJun 12 01:03
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_Goblinit is alleged since the username making it has not been proved to be the same person.Jun 12 01:04
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_Goblinand since (in the UK) there is no crime in that case, it is nothing more than an allegation.Jun 12 01:04
_GoblinI can explain why the Linxxx.xxx was not a threat if you wish...Jun 12 01:05
_Goblinand why it was so silly for them to suggest a case could be broughtJun 12 01:05
_Mutex_mabey by the letter of the law, but that wont stop a crazy hiding behind a fake name or not to kill you, because he hates/loves Linux/windows/cheese burgersJun 12 01:07
schestowitzBack in a mo. I booted into the wrong kernelJun 12 01:07
ThistleWebthe cheese burger thing can be explianed by mad cows desease in the meatJun 12 01:07
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ThistleWebit drives peeps nutsJun 12 01:07
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_Mutex_ Not in my country :)Jun 12 01:08
_Mutex_no mad moo's hereJun 12 01:08
fewawhich is that?Jun 12 01:08
ThistleWeblolJun 12 01:08
_Mutex_AustraliaJun 12 01:08
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_Mutex_Aussis, the largest island and the smallest contanent on the planet :-)Jun 12 01:12
_GoblinGn all...fishing trip tomorrow...I'm off to bed.Jun 12 01:13
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DaemonXPlooks like from what I've gathered on Wikipedia that Theora is based on a formerly proprietary video codec that the company gave up on in order to move to superior codecsJun 12 01:40
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DaemonXPand that the company is now 3 generations ahead of VP3 (Theora)Jun 12 01:40
DaemonXPhttp://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ogg_controversy_(HTML_5)Jun 12 01:41
DaemonXP"Originally, the specification recommended the use of Vorbis and Theora codecs for these elements, but this recommendation was later removed[1] after Apple[2] and Nokia[3] had opposed the move. Opera Software and Mozilla have been advocates for including the Ogg formats into the HTML standard[4][5] and have included native decoding for these formats in their browsers. Google is planning on including Vorbis and Theora support in CJun 12 01:42
DaemonXPso Vorbis and Theora are not the new standard, because HTML 5 sets a delivery mechanism only, not a standard formatJun 12 01:42
yuhongRemember when I talked about how old Unix is?Jun 12 01:43
DaemonXPso there will no doubt be some kind of a format war when this gets going, between Apple formats, Microsoft formats, and free formatsJun 12 01:43
DaemonXPwith  obvious backersJun 12 01:43
DaemonXPthis is going to get UGLYJun 12 01:44
yuhongI know!Jun 12 01:44
ThistleWebif life begins at 40, and Unix has turned 40, does that mean it's a prophecy for Unix to begin it's life in the mainstream now it's matured enough?Jun 12 01:44
DaemonXPschestowitz: Wait til you need to have WMA/WMV support to view a perfectly "W3C Standards Compliant" web pageJun 12 01:44
neighborleeschestowitz, http://linuxcanuck.wordpress.com/2009/06/09/ubuntu-is-driving-me-away/ <in case you dont know..from 9th so I thought you might not but anyway--Jun 12 01:44
DaemonXPMicrosoft, Apple, and Adobe turned this into a nightmare waiting to happenJun 12 01:45
yuhongI know!Jun 12 01:45
DaemonXPand the W3C bent over for themJun 12 01:45
DaemonXPyou thought Flash was bad? At least Adobe doesn't have an operating system to throw aroundJun 12 01:46
DaemonXP:)Jun 12 01:46
DaemonXPThey need to introduce some patent licensing requirements into Vorbis and Theoras licensesJun 12 01:47
DaemonXPlike NOWJun 12 01:47
yuhonghttp://tech.slashdot.org/story/09/06/11/181223/Saving-Unix-Heritage-One-Kernel-At-a-TimeJun 12 01:48
ThistleWebschestowitz: http://direct.tesco.com/buyersguide/computing.aspx#topic3   <<the FAQ page I mentioned in my email to Tesco if you need itJun 12 01:48
yuhongIntel is contributing USB 3.0 support to Linux.Jun 12 01:48
ThistleWebstill listing latest Windows as XPJun 12 01:48
yuhonghttp://linux.slashdot.org/story/09/06/11/214240/Linux-To-Be-First-OS-To-Support-USB-30Jun 12 01:48
DaemonXPlike "If you are a distributor of patent licensed media codecs and you support our codecs in your browser, you in turn agree to license at no charge the use of your formats for the purpose of decoding media streams inside a web browser"Jun 12 01:48
DaemonXPotherwise Microsoft will just pay companies to encode to WMA/WMV and will release a plugin for Firefox on WindowsJun 12 01:49
DaemonXPto let  it decode those as wellJun 12 01:49
DaemonXPbut not for Linux usersJun 12 01:49
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yuhongPersonally, my favorites now are Ars Technica and Slashdot.Jun 12 01:54
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schestowitzThanks, ThistleWebJun 12 02:08
ThistleWebnpJun 12 02:08
schestowitzneighborlee: yes, I wrote about it in the morningJun 12 02:08
neighborleeschestowitz, ah okJun 12 02:08
schestowitzThe XP demon is goneJun 12 02:08
schestowitzThankfully?Jun 12 02:08
neighborleelolJun 12 02:08
neighborleeschestowitz, a friend in #lemmings told me about it just moments ago so I wanted to verifyJun 12 02:09
oiaohmHmm you are up late schestowitzJun 12 02:09
oiaohmdemon is very much USA is center of world.Jun 12 02:10
oiaohmOther than that not that bad.Jun 12 02:10
splosionhttp://www.theregister.co.uk/2009/06/11/microsoft_windows_ie_sku_europe/Jun 12 02:11
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neighborleeSam Varghese has shown that getting a license is as easy as catching a unicorn. < LOLJun 12 02:13
neighborlee:)Jun 12 02:13
oiaohmAnti trust regulater are not going to take to that splosionJun 12 02:14
oiaohmSince removing program has been shown not to work.Jun 12 02:14
oiaohmEU anti trust regulators learn from there mistakes.Jun 12 02:14
ThistleWebto be fair, catching a unicorn is easy. If you can imagine one, you can imagine it staying still so you can throw your imaginary net over itJun 12 02:14
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splosionhow about the possibility that MS will just "encourage" OEMs to bundle IE anyway?Jun 12 02:15
neighborleeThistleWeb, :)Jun 12 02:15
ThistleWebsplosion: that's exactly how I imagine Microsoft's unwritten memos have been worded to the troopsJun 12 02:15
ThistleWebdisidents who offer non-IE options will face higher Windows pricesJun 12 02:16
oiaohmIts what they did with th N version splosionJun 12 02:16
oiaohmMS works on the idea that something worked once it has to work again.Jun 12 02:16
schestowitzA lot of Novell trolls are coming back to BNJun 12 02:16
schestowitzThey must be trying to use the Ubuntu thing to smear usJun 12 02:17
schestowitzoiaohm: yes, tired by nowJun 12 02:17
schestowitzLet's see if I can manage with links...Jun 12 02:17
DaemonXPitll be another Windows Edition NJun 12 02:18
DaemonXPwhere it's the same price and MS leans on the OEMs to not actually use itJun 12 02:18
oiaohmEU regulators have already look at an another N like open and rejected it.Jun 12 02:19
oiaohmMS is basically putting up a Idea the regulator has already said no to.Jun 12 02:19
oiaohmRegulator has decide that giving user option to choose is the best way forward.Jun 12 02:19
DaemonXPand they have just reversed their sworn testimony in US court where they said IE cannot be removedJun 12 02:19
DaemonXPdoubt that will mean anything thoughJun 12 02:20
oiaohmYep.Jun 12 02:20
oiaohmTechincally it means the old anti-trust case on USA can be reopened.Jun 12 02:39
DaemonXPObama won't do itJun 12 02:39
ThistleWebahh but changing the time zone fundamentally affects how Windows works and the US time zones are not compatible with a removable IE ;)Jun 12 02:40
DaemonXPthe MPAA for sure has their head up his assJun 12 02:40
DaemonXPyou know Microsoft can't be far behindJun 12 02:40
DaemonXPJoe Biden probably shoots the shit with Ballmer over lunch tooJun 12 02:40
oiaohmanti-trust case could be reopened by google in the USA if they wanted to.Jun 12 02:41
ThistleWebDaemonXP: this is better than the last VP's shooting practicesJun 12 02:41
oiaohmUsa anti-trust cases don't require goverment as prosuctor after the action has been started.Jun 12 02:41
ThistleWebless personal injuries at any rateJun 12 02:41
oiaohmIf google ends up attack by anti-trust it could get messy if google decided for revenge from what MS has just done.Jun 12 02:42
schestowitzGoogle does not commit crimesJun 12 02:44
schestowitzMicrosoft didJun 12 02:44
schestowitzBoth lobby, but not in the same wayJun 12 02:44
schestowitzStop being foolish in your defence of MSJun 12 02:44
oiaohmIts Microsoft pushing for google to be taken into anti-trust.Jun 12 02:44
schestowitzYou sound like MS spinners,, comptia, ACT, othersJun 12 02:44
oiaohmdue to MS actions google now has a chance to hit back.Jun 12 02:45
schestowitzoiaohm: it did this alreadyJun 12 02:45
schestowitzYahoo deal for exampleJun 12 02:45
schestowitzAnd many times moreJun 12 02:45
schestowitzMicrosoft is a political animalJun 12 02:45
DaemonXPWindows needs something to come and challenge it that can be used by human beingsJun 12 02:45
DaemonXPI'm sorry to say that using "lsmod" to find out what Linux has done with your USB microphone everytime you reboot is not helpingJun 12 02:46
DaemonXPnor is the problem of VLC failing to just autodetect itJun 12 02:46
oiaohmCompared to windows auto uninstalling my sound card driver its nothing.Jun 12 02:46
DaemonXPPossibly because Windows has a predictable set of possibilities?Jun 12 02:46
oiaohmAnd managing to do it while halfway threw playing a game.Jun 12 02:47
oiaohmWith Linux at least once it is working it stays that way.Jun 12 02:47
DaemonXPI could write a 1,000 page book on the things Linux does with audio alone that make me want to put my fist through the screenJun 12 02:47
DaemonXPthe only distributions out now that solve the most obscene problems are Mandriva and FedoraJun 12 02:48
oiaohmWindows has a equal number of strange audio problems.Jun 12 02:48
DaemonXPsuffice it to say that integration is a huge setbackJun 12 02:48
schestowitzgnJun 12 02:48
oiaohmOnly OS with trustable audio is OS X.Jun 12 02:49
DaemonXPoiaohm: I can't recall the last time Windows made funny pops and clicks and hissing, nor when it reassigned all the data associated with addressing my devices and made me manually reconfigure everything, only to have it happen againJun 12 02:50
DaemonXPor perhaps there was the whole "Pulseaudio refuses to redirect the audio input to Flash"Jun 12 02:50
oiaohmAll of Linux's are cureable without rebooting.Jun 12 02:50
oiaohmIf you know how.Jun 12 02:50
DaemonXPthen there's what happens now where trying to use a cam over Flash just crashes the browserJun 12 02:50
oiaohmWindows on the other hand it uninstall the audio driver.Jun 12 02:51
oiaohmOnly way to get it back is reboot.Jun 12 02:51
DaemonXPaudio on Linux is my biggest frustration with itJun 12 02:51
oiaohmBecause the audio interface is still locked by kernelJun 12 02:51
DaemonXPit does thigns that are so asinine and braindead stupidJun 12 02:51
DaemonXPit just defies any attempt at logical explanationJun 12 02:51
oiaohmBoth windows and Linux audio is nuts.Jun 12 02:51
DaemonXP:)Jun 12 02:52
splosionAudio has always been great for me.Jun 12 02:52
DaemonXPprobably because you aren't askinf it to deal with multiple devicesJun 12 02:52
oiaohmIf you have a windows with a card with drivers that works its fine.   If you have cards with drivers for windows that are bad its a bomb.   Same is true of Linux.Jun 12 02:52
DaemonXPit usually just freaks out and diesJun 12 02:52
oiaohmIt depends on the devices.Jun 12 02:52
oiaohmalso pulseaudio is the biggest system distrub pest.Jun 12 02:53
splosionQuite a few distros ship without the configuration tools. I know Ubuntu misses out on alsaconf and pulseconf. On my Debian box, running those commands sorted out all problems with multiple devices.Jun 12 02:53
DaemonXPLinux audio is a Tower of BabelJun 12 02:53
DaemonXPmade worse every time they try to fix itJun 12 02:54
oiaohmNot really.Jun 12 02:54
neighborleehe may be  right, if pulse audio is any indicationJun 12 02:54
DaemonXPyou shouldn't need "tools"Jun 12 02:54
DaemonXPit should deal with whatever I plug inJun 12 02:54
DaemonXPand that's finalJun 12 02:54
neighborleefriends I talk to find it horrid..fedora, ubuntu..all of themJun 12 02:54
oiaohmSo windows losing its audio drivers completely is fine DaemonXPJun 12 02:54
DaemonXPif even Microsoft can do that I don't know why Linux can'tJun 12 02:54
neighborleebuggy, yadda.Jun 12 02:54
splosionWell, Debian does. But I did stuff to break it. Alsaconf sorted everything out for me.Jun 12 02:54
oiaohmI mean fully delete from harddrive while in use DaemonXPJun 12 02:55
DaemonXPwith all the egregious fuck ups in Vista, holy shit the audio works fineJun 12 02:55
DaemonXPit's a miracleJun 12 02:55
neighborleeDaemonXP, fair point.Jun 12 02:55
oiaohmVista will still produce the same evil on some cards.Jun 12 02:55
oiaohmand usb devices.Jun 12 02:55
DaemonXPDebian had the good sense to just not do Pulseaudio at allJun 12 02:55
oiaohmBasically you just have not come into contact with the trouble.Jun 12 02:55
oiaohmPulseaudio dates back to the old idea that sound server can fix everything.Jun 12 02:56
DaemonXPif you try to enable Pulseaudio in Lenny, you're in for a world of hurtJun 12 02:56
oiaohmI have had pulseaudio running on Lenny.Jun 12 02:56
oiaohmJust don't mix it with flash or wine.Jun 12 02:56
oiaohmThen you are in for a world of hurt.Jun 12 02:57
DaemonXPdo you not see the problem that Vista's sound stack is more reliable than Linux?Jun 12 02:57
DaemonXPor that it uses timer scheduling and has alwaysJun 12 02:57
DaemonXPbut if I turn that on, Ubuntu pops and clicksJun 12 02:57
DaemonXPand chirpsJun 12 02:57
oiaohmProblem is Vista sound stack is more reliable on one hard.Jun 12 02:57
oiaohmYou don't call a system can can uninstall drivers while they are being used exactly right.Jun 12 02:57
oiaohmAnd without user action.Jun 12 02:58
DaemonXPanyhow, speaking of videos, I should do a review of Opera 10 BetaJun 12 02:58
DaemonXPI am impressedJun 12 02:58
DaemonXPit even works well in LinuxJun 12 02:58
DaemonXPWhat I mean is it integrates with freedesktop.org standards and will fit in no matter what desktop you useJun 12 02:58
DaemonXPinstead of bugging you to solve everythingJun 12 02:59
DaemonXPOpera is really shaping up to be the best browser on Linux if they keep this upJun 12 02:59
DaemonXPthat's really been my only major problem with using Opera on LinuxJun 12 02:59
ByteCorruptoDaemonXP: Opera 9 used to have fonts problems. Opera 10 resolves that?Jun 12 02:59
oiaohmpulseaudio guys recomend using a realtime supporting kernel to avoid clicks and other things.Jun 12 03:00
DaemonXPit's never been all that smooth like it is on Windows and MacJun 12 03:00
DaemonXPin pages you mean?Jun 12 03:00
DaemonXPit uses antialiased fontsJun 12 03:00
ByteCorruptoYesJun 12 03:00
DaemonXPlooks really goodJun 12 03:00
DaemonXPin 10 Beta that isJun 12 03:00
ByteCorruptoOh, that's greatJun 12 03:00
ByteCorruptoAnd I heard that Opera 10 uses QT4 too.Jun 12 03:00
DaemonXPOpera hired a well known graphics designer to redo the entire interfaceJun 12 03:00
DaemonXPapparentlyJun 12 03:01
DaemonXPyes it doesJun 12 03:01
ByteCorruptoNah... is a ripoff of Google Chrome theme.Jun 12 03:01
DaemonXPit fits in with GNOME or KDE very well nowJun 12 03:01
DaemonXPno, it's not a Chrome ripoffJun 12 03:01
DaemonXPjust a more attractive theme than they were using in 9Jun 12 03:01
oiaohmBy using QT Opera does save on cross platform development.Jun 12 03:02
DaemonXPone thing that bugs me though....and I know this is a bugJun 12 03:02
DaemonXPeven if you select your bittorrent client, then it still asks you every timeJun 12 03:02
DaemonXPbut oh well, the rest of the browser works dandyJun 12 03:02
DaemonXPyesJun 12 03:03
DaemonXPand you can have Opera mimic your system theme colorsJun 12 03:03
DaemonXPworks better on KDE though if you want thatJun 12 03:03
DaemonXPhmmmmJun 12 03:03
DaemonXPthey have a Windows Native skin tooJun 12 03:03
DaemonXPit's not bad eitherJun 12 03:03
oiaohmQT has that.Jun 12 03:04
DaemonXPtheir last one was terribleJun 12 03:04
DaemonXPtried to draw a Windows 2000 theme inside of VistaJun 12 03:04
*DaemonXP pukesJun 12 03:04
oiaohmYep.Jun 12 03:04
ByteCorruptoIf only Opera will stop using those useless widgets and start using extenders like Firefox, IE, Chrome and others...Jun 12 03:04
oiaohmThat was QT3Jun 12 03:04
ByteCorruptoI'll use it!Jun 12 03:04
DaemonXPI don't really use themJun 12 03:04
oiaohmQT3 does not know what to do in Vista.Jun 12 03:04
DaemonXPthe only thing I use an extension in FF for is AdblockJun 12 03:04
oiaohmWorks ok in XP but vista it runs home.Jun 12 03:05
DaemonXPOpera can do that with a ini file and a CSS sheet to block the shit like Google adsJun 12 03:05
DaemonXPhttp://www.fanboy.co.nz/adblock/opera/Jun 12 03:05
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DaemonXPI use thoseJun 12 03:05
ByteCorruptoYouDontNeedThat[TM]?Jun 12 03:06
oiaohmOne thing that is a universal agreement is that IE suxs.Jun 12 03:08
oiaohmHopefully Opera releasing more freedesktop supporting will force mozilla to lift there game on that.Jun 12 03:09
ByteCorruptooiaohm: Internet Explorer is have the best bookmarks manager that I've seen.Jun 12 03:10
oiaohmhttp://www.phoronix.com/scan.php?page=news_item&px=NzMyMQ  Multi touch is on way.Jun 12 03:10
ByteCorrupto¿srsly? yeah!!Jun 12 03:11
oiaohm2.6.30 support it.   Next X11 server will support it correctly.     So next round of KDE and Gnome will have to look at intergrated Multi-touch.Jun 12 03:12
ByteCorruptoHey, is a ripoff of Microsoft Surface!, but is free.Jun 12 03:13
DaemonXPIf Opera was under a different license, it would cream Firefox on Linux desktopsJun 12 03:13
oiaohmNop ByteCorruptoJun 12 03:13
oiaohmMS ripped off MPX tech to create SurfaceJun 12 03:13
oiaohmMS wants like 15000 dollars for surface systems.  I can really see linux equals around the 3000 dollar mark.Jun 12 03:14
ByteCorruptoIs like Screenlets. Screenlets is a ripoff of Windows Sidebar, and Sidebar is a ripoff of Dashboard.Jun 12 03:14
oiaohmAnd all that started live in strange X11 windows managers ByteCorrupto.Jun 12 03:15
ByteCorruptoYes of curse.Jun 12 03:16
oiaohmBoth apple and windows has been cheery picking the X11 world.Jun 12 03:16
ByteCorruptommm... ¿And Xerox too?Jun 12 03:17
oiaohmFind a old Xerox logo.  X with a line threw it the X11 symbol is a line threw the old Xerox logo meaning not Xerox.Jun 12 03:18
ByteCorruptoOK, I'll search that.Jun 12 03:19
ByteCorruptoI have always said that is not who innovates, but who improves the characteristics of the other.Jun 12 03:19
ByteCorruptoAnd of curse, everybody copies from everybody.Jun 12 03:19
oiaohmMS mostly does not experment with interfaces.Jun 12 03:19
oiaohmThere ribbon bar is about the only thing of theres I cannot point to a exact prior source.Jun 12 03:20
oiaohmApple expermented early on but since then really has not.Jun 12 03:20
oiaohmThe idea of the menu bar always along top of screen is a Apple unique idea.Jun 12 03:21
fewaMicrosoft mainly stealsJun 12 03:21
fewaie, doesn't have original ideas that go anywhereJun 12 03:22
oiaohmThe 3d effects in Vista is basically compiz redone.Jun 12 03:22
fewawatJun 12 03:22
fewadont dis compizJun 12 03:22
ByteCorruptobut Looking Glass come before compizJun 12 03:23
fewaoiaohm, I think it was more in direct response to OSX effects, not saying that those were original howeverJun 12 03:23
oiaohmcompiz will work when the X11 system supports what it needs to do.Jun 12 03:23
fewaThere are some leaked messages that show thatJun 12 03:23
oiaohmBasically the full 3d effects thing is not new.Jun 12 03:24
oiaohmMost of what people use as interfaces is at least 10 years old in development before they get to see it.Jun 12 03:25
fewaproject athenaJun 12 03:25
fewadont forgetJun 12 03:26
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oiaohmhttp://insitu.lri.fr/metisse/facades/  Hopefully this tech comes through to desktop soon.Jun 12 03:27
fewacoolJun 12 03:27
splosionThat facade stuff looks awesomeJun 12 03:30
oiaohmCurrently its a bit evil.  It hacking around X11 limitations to do it.  Ie its a X11 proxy.Jun 12 03:30
fewahorribleJun 12 03:31
fewayou build it into gtk/qtJun 12 03:31
fewafor gtk make it link to libpangoJun 12 03:31
oiaohmWith DRI2 it will be doable without being a X11 proxy.Jun 12 03:31
fewawhoops libgladeJun 12 03:31
oiaohmAnd still toolkit independant.Jun 12 03:31
oiaohmIe something that could just become part of the X11 server.Jun 12 03:32
fewaI think you could make the UI builders of the toolkits integral with running programsJun 12 03:32
oiaohmIt could be intergrated into tks universional mode has its advantages.Jun 12 03:33
oiaohmLike if compiz picked up the facades idea you would have it everywhere.Jun 12 03:34
oiaohmfacades is a complete different idea to userinterfaces.Jun 12 03:34
oiaohmGive users complete freedom to change the interface.Jun 12 03:34
oiaohmtk supporting would allow more freedom than facades allows.Jun 12 03:36
splosionIf you let users go right ahead an make their own interfaces and share those with others, it would effectively make UI design from a programmer's perspective moot. The best UI would rise from the rabbleJun 12 03:38
oiaohmYep it kinda turns the existing interface design model on ear.Jun 12 03:39
oiaohmOne thing lot of programmers of open source programs are particular bad at doing is designing interfaces.Jun 12 03:41
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splosionI had GUI programming in generalJun 12 03:42
balzac[[[GNU POWAH]]]Jun 12 03:43
ByteCorruptooiaohm: that's because the programmers are not software designersJun 12 03:44
oiaohmMajor cause of the open source problem is people need X feature now.   So making GUI nicer goes to end of list.Jun 12 03:44
oiaohmEven if they are software designers.Jun 12 03:45
balzacI own www.GnuCrew.comJun 12 03:45
splosionaye. Snapping together a GUI simply would be great for the programmers too. I can see people just making a great big box full of widgets and letting the users to the rest. HahJun 12 03:46
oiaohmByteCorrupto: blender is a great example.   Has had great software designers working on special effects.   Guess what until recently none even put there time.   It takes a lot of time doing workflow studies and the like to make good interfaces.Jun 12 03:47
ByteCorruptoThe GUIs must limit the user. The GUIs are like a path that lets the user to learn slowly and smoothlyJun 12 03:47
balzacI'd say there is no brand more under-appreciated, or due increased recognition by orders of magnitude than the GNU brand.Jun 12 03:47
oiaohmBlender is changing to a very python based GUI.Jun 12 03:47
splosionit removes a barrier to the contributing part of FOSS. Not everybody wants to program and not everybody wants to package stuff.Jun 12 03:47
oiaohmSince python is the coding language there users use.Jun 12 03:48
ByteCorruptoWhat about GIMP?Jun 12 03:48
oiaohmGIMP same problem.Jun 12 03:48
balzacNo brand in the history of branding has had a more viral or credible guerilla marketing strategy behind it.Jun 12 03:48
balzac[[[GNU POWAH]]]Jun 12 03:48
oiaohmBut gimp is tricker since most gimp users don't code.Jun 12 03:49
balzacluckily GIMP is very inviting to coders with Python as the scripting language. Blender as well.Jun 12 03:49
ByteCorruptoNautilus, OpenOffice (c'mon!, OOo need a Ribbon), the GNOME and KDE application's menus, etc,etc.Jun 12 03:50
balzacMuch nicer than Maya with MEL, or 3DSMAX with whatever it has.Jun 12 03:50
oiaohmSo something like facades embeded would allow users to take control of the interface and reshape the interface.Jun 12 03:50
oiaohmRibbon has its major down sides ByteCorruptoJun 12 03:50
balzacok, the only way i'm going to get work done is by isolating myself from temptation to chat in here regularlyJun 12 03:51
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oiaohmMajor problem is Office suits have got harder to learn to use with stuff appearing and disappearing.Jun 12 03:51
ByteCorruptoYes, but i very intuitive. Thanks to the power of the opensource (yes, I'm a opensoruce follower), OOo can have the option to use normal menus and Ribbon.Jun 12 03:51
oiaohmOOo is having its interface redesigned at moment.Jun 12 03:52
oiaohmIts not going to be ribbon its going to something a little more learnable.Jun 12 03:52
oiaohmEven the idea of wizards looks to be going by by replaced with action scripts that will show users how the thing was produced so making it simpler for the user to alter.Jun 12 03:53
oiaohmLot of things MS does has the right idea but needs reworking.Jun 12 03:54
ByteCorruptoIf the developers want that users move to Linux, OpenOffice needs to adapt to the users needs. And if the users want Ribbon in OpenOffice, the developers should add it.Jun 12 03:54
oiaohmUsers don't want it.Jun 12 03:55
oiaohmOn adverage.Jun 12 03:55
oiaohmOpenOffice has allready talked to large sections of there users.Jun 12 03:55
ByteCorruptoOf curse, actually they don't want it.Jun 12 03:56
oiaohmUsers want something that by using is basically teaching them.Jun 12 03:56
splosionHow about just have the Ribbon as a choice. Solves all wants that way.Jun 12 03:56
oiaohmSo they don't truly have to spend extra time learning.Jun 12 03:57
oiaohmOld wizard idea is good for getting stuff done.   But it fully hides how stuff was done so user cannot improve there skills from it.Jun 12 03:58
oiaohmThat has been the major responce from the users.   They want an interface that just using it you are learing how to exploit it.Jun 12 03:58
oiaohmRibblon really does not help to provide an applicaiton users can learn purely just by using.Jun 12 03:59
ByteCorruptoyeah, the wizards are great.Jun 12 04:00
oiaohmwizards are going by by.Jun 12 04:00
oiaohmThere is no reason to copy a idea that makes using the interface harder or more confusing.Jun 12 04:02
oiaohmtab based is turning out highly popular.Jun 12 04:03
ByteCorruptoI find Ribbon realy good and intuitive. Yes, I am from the old school of menubars, but I think that the Ribbon style have great potentialJun 12 04:03
DaemonXPMy bank now lets Opera users inJun 12 04:04
DaemonXPno longer gives them the upgrade your browser screenJun 12 04:04
oiaohmChanging on context of ribbion is where its advantage is ByteCorruptoJun 12 04:04
DaemonXPI emailed them a complaint about thatJun 12 04:04
DaemonXPit was sending to a page recommending IE or FirefoxJun 12 04:05
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oiaohmThe idea of ribbion is very much like wizards.   It hides how to directly get to particular features ByteCorruptoJun 12 04:05
DaemonXPat first I got someone who misunderstood me and was telling me IE was more secureJun 12 04:06
DaemonXP:PJun 12 04:06
the_mad_hatteryeah, it's like the bullshit smart menus in OfficeJun 12 04:06
DaemonXPbut apparently I got through to someone that knew what they were doingJun 12 04:06
oiaohmThat fault was also in Office with it toolbars before.  Appearing and disappear toolbars so users had fun finding particular features ByteCorruptoJun 12 04:06
the_mad_hatterTurn the damned things off at install, along with the damned dog.Jun 12 04:06
the_mad_hatterRoy, two links from Brainstorm:Jun 12 04:07
the_mad_hatterhttp://brainstorm.ubuntu.com/idea/20121/Jun 12 04:07
the_mad_hatterhttp://brainstorm.ubuntu.com/idea/110/Jun 12 04:07
the_mad_hatterYou should publish them.Jun 12 04:07
ByteCorruptoAbout wizards. One of the things that I dislike of Linux is the lack of a "tour guide". Something like an graphic explanation of the caracteristics about the distro and the selected desktop enviorement (yeah, like these videos from Apple teaching the Window's users how cool is OSX). Imagine something like a graphic tour while Linux is installing, or one Wizard for the newbies that helps them to use GNOME/KDE.Jun 12 04:07
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the_mad_hatterThose videos are the worst piece of shit ever (I own several Apples). Deleted the shit things along with the crapware installation of Microsloth Office.Jun 12 04:08
the_mad_hatterthe day that I got them. I went Apple to escape from Microsloth, thinking that there wasn't any crapware, and got a nasty surprise. I called the store and complained.Jun 12 04:09
ByteCorruptoThe .mac membership stuff?Jun 12 04:10
the_mad_hatterAlso sent emails to Apple about it. Microsloth pays Apple to install it, and the damned thing thinks it owns PPS, DOC, XLS even if you install something else (Open Office)Jun 12 04:10
DaemonXPI had a .mac account at one pointJun 12 04:10
the_mad_hatterNo, Microsloth Office.Jun 12 04:10
DaemonXPthey give you a free trial with a new MacJun 12 04:10
DaemonXPit's too expensive to bother with thoughJun 12 04:11
ByteCorruptohow much?Jun 12 04:11
the_mad_hatter.mac wasn't an issue. Just ignored it. Who needs it with Gmail, Picasa, Facebook, BloggerJun 12 04:11
DaemonXPdon't recall, it's been about 7-8 yearsJun 12 04:11
DaemonXPjust remember seeing the priceJun 12 04:11
splosionI'd like to know why there is such a large difference in the time it takes to install distros. Ubuntu takes about fifteen to twenty minutes for me. Debian takes about the same. Sidux takes about five minutes. What gives?Jun 12 04:11
DaemonXPand thinking "God damn"Jun 12 04:11
the_mad_hatterYou mean thinking - what a ripoff.Jun 12 04:12
ByteCorruptoLOLJun 12 04:12
the_mad_hatterI know that's what I thought.Jun 12 04:12
DaemonXPpretty muchJun 12 04:12
DaemonXPI still have that Mac thoughJun 12 04:12
DaemonXP:PJun 12 04:12
DaemonXPin my closetJun 12 04:12
the_mad_hatterMind you, they do a good job, I know a lot of people who love their .mac or whatever it's called now (I know they changed the name)Jun 12 04:12
DaemonXPI just never really got into the Mac thingJun 12 04:12
DaemonXPI came right back to XP and VistaJun 12 04:13
the_mad_hatterHeh. I like mac, good solid computers, last forever. I'm playing around with Linux on a 2002 era MacBook this weekend.Jun 12 04:13
DaemonXPI had the Mac as my day to day system til around 2006Jun 12 04:13
DaemonXPeverything is like double the price of the same thing for PCJun 12 04:13
splosionwhere I live, Macs are just fashion accessories. You're not allowed to use laptops in Starbucks unless they are macsJun 12 04:14
DaemonXPand the port is usually about 6 months to a year laterJun 12 04:14
DaemonXPso there's really just no good reason to have a MacJun 12 04:14
DaemonXPunless you like to wait for ports and pay more when they get thereJun 12 04:14
ByteCorruptobut the mac look soooooo cooooool...Jun 12 04:14
ByteCorruptoLOLJun 12 04:14
the_mad_hatterGnustep and Crux looked up to date. And the hardware is a hell of a lot better than you get from anyone else.Jun 12 04:14
DaemonXPno really, Vista is better than OS XJun 12 04:14
DaemonXPOS X is totally overhypedJun 12 04:14
ByteCorruptoyeahJun 12 04:14
the_mad_hatterMost of the Linux kernel hackers use Macs.Jun 12 04:14
ByteCorrupto(I was talking about the hardware)Jun 12 04:15
DaemonXPIt's a PowerPC Mac tooJun 12 04:15
the_mad_hatterUm, I'll disagree with you. OSX is way better than Vista. At least it runs at a reasonable speed even on older hardware.Jun 12 04:15
DaemonXPso I never had the option to dual boot it into XPJun 12 04:15
the_mad_hatterGot two Power PC Macs here.Jun 12 04:15
the_mad_hatterGreat machines.Jun 12 04:15
ByteCorruptoI'm trying Windows 7. Of curse is better than Vista, and is a great commpetitor to Linux.Jun 12 04:15
DaemonXPI probably would have been the only person with a Mac that spent most of his time in Windows XPJun 12 04:16
ByteCorruptothe_mad_hatter: but you can type "Call of Duty" on the Windows Desktop Search and have a result!Jun 12 04:16
the_mad_hatterRight. Windows 7. Pig with lipstick. I know people who plan to upgrade, and boy are the going to get a nasty surprise. Machine ain't gonna run faster.Jun 12 04:16
DaemonXPI've tried the Release Candidate, it's alrightJun 12 04:17
the_mad_hatterWho cares about "Call of Duty?"Jun 12 04:17
DaemonXPneeds some work thoughJun 12 04:17
ByteCorruptoLOLJun 12 04:17
DaemonXPbut I don't think this is going to be catastrophicJun 12 04:17
DaemonXPat least not on the scale of VistaJun 12 04:17
the_mad_hatterI think it will be catastrophic, since it won't run well on Netbooks.Jun 12 04:17
DaemonXPyou may be wrongJun 12 04:18
oiaohmhttp://standardsandfreedom.net/wp-content/uploads/2009/06/bild-1.png  << As long as the designer who did that don't get at it.  Windows 7 should be at least usable.Jun 12 04:18
DaemonXPMS only released Ultimate Edition for Beta/RCJun 12 04:18
the_mad_hatterI don't think so.Jun 12 04:18
DaemonXPUltimate has a lot of shit running that Starter wouldn'tJun 12 04:18
the_mad_hatterI think that it won't be any better than Vista for speed, though I suspect it won't be as annoying (UAC)Jun 12 04:18
DaemonXPso I think it may stand a good chance on a netbookJun 12 04:18
ByteCorrupto"standardandfreedom" it seems that article is not objetiveJun 12 04:18
DaemonXPit won't be as quick as XPJun 12 04:18
splosionthere will be 18 versions of Windows 7, btwJun 12 04:19
DaemonXPbut nothing a little RAM won't fixJun 12 04:19
the_mad_hatterRight, it won't be as quick as XP, but even XP isn't real fast on low power Netbook chips.Jun 12 04:19
splosion6 standard Sucker to ultimate editions, six without IE, and Six more without WMP either.Jun 12 04:19
oiaohmOther than its going to be for the wrong cpu type for the netbooks with long battery life.Jun 12 04:19
ByteCorruptoit's not about perfomance, it's about usabilityJun 12 04:19
DaemonXPXP seemed to start running well around 1 gig, Vista around 2 gigs, and that really hasn't budget for Windows 7Jun 12 04:19
DaemonXPif anything, it's gone downJun 12 04:20
the_mad_hatterAny slow down on an already power challenged netbook will be a bad.Jun 12 04:20
DaemonXPdue to the changes in the graphics memory systemJun 12 04:20
DaemonXPnot down by muchJun 12 04:20
DaemonXPbut it's somethingJun 12 04:20
oiaohmNetbooks has the limitation of battery.Jun 12 04:20
DaemonXPyeah, but you haven't even seen it yet, there's a possibility of this going either wayJun 12 04:21
oiaohmIts going to be sad but XP could still have longer battery life than Windows 7Jun 12 04:21
oiaohmCurrent release candate it eats threw battery faster than XP.Jun 12 04:21
the_mad_hatterThe Atom processor it a great chip, but it doesn't have the power of a Core 2 chip.Jun 12 04:21
DaemonXPXP wasn't awful, it wasn't great, but after 3 service packs, it's pretty dependableJun 12 04:21
oiaohmIf they don't do something it is simple dead man walking in netbooks.Jun 12 04:22
the_mad_hatterI never found XP reliable.Jun 12 04:22
DaemonXPI still maintain an XP image that I integrate all the hotfixes intoJun 12 04:22
ByteCorruptooiaohm: I disregard that, i tried Windows 7 in a Acer Aspire One and the battery perfomance was very similar.Jun 12 04:22
DaemonXPI have XP Pro SP3 on my laptopJun 12 04:22
the_mad_hatterXP is the reason all of my computers are OSX and Linux.Jun 12 04:22
splosioncurrently building that Metisse thing. OoohJun 12 04:22
the_mad_hatterIt fucked up one to many times....Jun 12 04:22
DaemonXPI integrated everything including IE 8 and WMP 11 into the setup imageJun 12 04:22
ByteCorruptoand of curse, the usability of Win7 is better than XPJun 12 04:22
oiaohmThat is a tose up ByteCorruptoJun 12 04:23
DaemonXPso it's got all the updates pretty much before setup even finishesJun 12 04:23
DaemonXPXP images are easy to customizeJun 12 04:23
the_mad_hatterUsability is in the eye of the beholder.Jun 12 04:23
DaemonXPjust replace the filesJun 12 04:23
oiaohmall those changed icons make.  ByteCorruptoJun 12 04:23
DaemonXPre-CAB themJun 12 04:23
DaemonXPVista was never that easyJun 12 04:24
the_mad_hatterHeh. Go look on the torrent sites, there's dozens of specialised XP distros.Jun 12 04:24
DaemonXPI've got the Vista with SP2 integrated ISOJun 12 04:24
DaemonXPfrom TechnetJun 12 04:24
the_mad_hatterAnd some Vista distros. Hell, they even have Longhorn distros.Jun 12 04:24
DaemonXPVista is LonghornJun 12 04:24
the_mad_hatterNo, Longhorn is Longhorn - it's based on the 2003-2004 MSDN release kernel.Jun 12 04:25
ByteCorruptooiaohm: what? Superfetch, the taskbar, Windows Explorer, WMP12, even the fucking paint and wordpad are better in win7 than in XP. Yeah, Microsoft steals all those ideas from others, but Win7 is superior than XP.Jun 12 04:25
oiaohmAgain netbooks battery life.Jun 12 04:26
the_mad_hatterBut is Windows 7 superior to Ubuntu? Or Mandriva? Or Fedora? If it isn't (and I don't think it will be)Jun 12 04:26
the_mad_hatterMicrosoft is in deep shit.Jun 12 04:26
oiaohmLot of things are at superior you end up not using on netbooks because it will suck the life out of them.Jun 12 04:26
ByteCorruptoand of curse, in Windows you have the best FOSS software (like GIMP) and if your want, you cand spend some bucks in commercial software if you think you need it (like Photoshop).Jun 12 04:27
the_mad_hatterAnd of course Microsoft hardware support has never been good.Jun 12 04:27
ByteCorruptothe_mad_hatter: like the blu-ray support?Jun 12 04:27
oiaohmNetbooks no dvd or blu-ray drives.Jun 12 04:27
the_mad_hatterMicrosoft hardware support is a joke. I can download anyone of 30 Linux distros, drop them on my laptop, and have everything recognised. You don't get that with Windows.Jun 12 04:27
splosionYou see "These machines are not powerful enough to play games or multitask with intensive applications" warning signs by the netbooks in shops, now. People see a PC running XP and assume it can do stuff a normal PC can do. The thing is, as far as Linux is concerned, they can. That it's impossible to get the netbooks with a GOOD Linux distro now is lamentableJun 12 04:28
the_mad_hatterIt doesn't matter what hardware you have, Linux can generally handle it without needing to chase drivers.Jun 12 04:28
the_mad_hatterI've installed Linux on just about every piece of shit hardware built, and it always just works. It's fantastic. No, it's fucking fantastic. No, it's supercalifrangelisticexpealidocious.Jun 12 04:29
ByteCorruptoI don't like to defend Windows, but I have to reconogize that Windows have its advantages. Of curse, I know that Linux is the fucking future and Fedora (my Fav distro) is very great and stable; but I know that Linux need to improve their usability and user's experience.Jun 12 04:30
oiaohmThe recent arm chip from nvidia being able to run highdef play back for 10 hours.Jun 12 04:30
oiaohmNo problem.Jun 12 04:30
oiaohm48 hours playing mp3s.Jun 12 04:30
the_mad_hatterWhat advantages? The ability to run viruses?Jun 12 04:30
oiaohmProblem Windows 7 don't run on that.Jun 12 04:30
ByteCorruptoLOLJun 12 04:30
the_mad_hatterInternet Exploder?Jun 12 04:30
oiaohmBasically you want something with good battery life you cannot go windows.Jun 12 04:30
ByteCorruptoFirefox with more extentionsJun 12 04:31
the_mad_hatterMicrosloth LookOut, the most advanced virus vector ever designed?Jun 12 04:31
oiaohmMS will basically lose the lower end marketJun 12 04:31
oiaohmThey don't fit.Jun 12 04:31
the_mad_hatterMicrosoft is loosing the corporate market. That will hurt them more.Jun 12 04:31
ByteCorruptooiaohm: yeah, you are right, also Microsoft lost the embbebed OS market.Jun 12 04:32
the_mad_hatterI know a lot of places that are transitioning a lot of PCs to Linux or BSD. BSD has hardware detection almost as good as Linux now.Jun 12 04:32
oiaohmThen with carbon trading come in.Jun 12 04:32
oiaohmpower usage in business will become important.Jun 12 04:32
oiaohmAgain MS OS does not run on the most power effect cpu design out there.Jun 12 04:33
the_mad_hatterYes, power usage is a big thing. The Green Party in the USA likes Linux because of that.Jun 12 04:33
oiaohmIts vista all over again.Jun 12 04:33
oiaohmThe market place is moving.Jun 12 04:33
oiaohmMS is realesing tech about 5 years out of alignment.Jun 12 04:33
the_mad_hatterDon't you mean, "It's deja Vista all over again"Jun 12 04:33
splosionmicrosoft are trying to label the new ARM-books as "not really real computers". People are going to have a shock when they discover a fully functional and working linux desktop running on themJun 12 04:33
the_mad_hatterYou forget the MIPS ones - they are already on the market.Jun 12 04:34
oiaohmArm really wants to sell as everything.Jun 12 04:34
oiaohmDesktop laptop and embedded.Jun 12 04:34
oiaohmmips also wants to sell as everything.Jun 12 04:34
the_mad_hatterSo does MIPS. MIPS could be the futureJun 12 04:34
oiaohmWe will have 3 classes of cpus fighting for top dog.Jun 12 04:35
oiaohmarm, mips and x86.Jun 12 04:35
the_mad_hatterAnd MIPS used to be the high power chip. Think SGI.Jun 12 04:35
splosiongood stuffJun 12 04:35
oiaohmProblem is x86 is very much fighting with its hands behind it back.Jun 12 04:35
oiaohmInternal core of a pentuim process is not a x86 processor.Jun 12 04:35
the_mad_hatterAnd of course Power is still there. There's a company with low wattage multi core power chips...Jun 12 04:36
oiaohmIt is a risc processor with a x86 instruction set converter.Jun 12 04:36
oiaohmarm, ppc and mips all process there instruciton set native.Jun 12 04:36
oiaohmLast x86 processor to do that was the 486.Jun 12 04:37
the_mad_hatterIf they ran it as a straight RISC processor, it would be a lot faster. Oh, and you forgot Itanic.Jun 12 04:37
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the_mad_hatterItanic - core of the future.Jun 12 04:37
the_mad_hatterWhat future we aren't quite sure.Jun 12 04:37
splosionMicrosoft are going to get people using their OS one way or another. They will clone new users if need be: http://www.genomeweb.com/informatics/bioinformatics-firms-see-microsoft-acquisition-rosetta-biosoftware-boost-fieldJun 12 04:37
oiaohmItanic had a risc core.Jun 12 04:37
the_mad_hatterMicrosoft doesn't have the cash. Read there SEC filings.Jun 12 04:38
DaemonXPthe Green Party is a jokeJun 12 04:38
the_mad_hatterSorry, I mean "Read their SEC filings.:Jun 12 04:38
the_mad_hatterWhere is the Green Party a joke?Jun 12 04:38
ByteCorruptoyeah, I read in BoycottNovell that Microsoft doesn't seems to have money.Jun 12 04:39
DaemonXPthe USJun 12 04:39
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DaemonXPthe minor parties never get elected, but the bigger two always steal their platformJun 12 04:40
DaemonXP:PJun 12 04:40
the_mad_hatterYeah, but the US isn't a democracy.Jun 12 04:41
ByteCorruptoI leave. Thanks for the chat, is strange to me see this type of conversations in IRC :DJun 12 04:42
fewathe_mad_hatter, what do you mean?Jun 12 04:42
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the_mad_hatterTechnically it's not a democracy, and it was never meant to be. The US was set up as an ogliarchy, to be run by "the right people". this will be a long explanation... bear with meJun 12 04:43
fewademocracy: "form of government in which state-power is held by the majority of citizens within a country or a state."Jun 12 04:44
the_mad_hatterThe idea was to keep power in a certain, limited, population.Jun 12 04:44
the_mad_hatterThis was done by limiting the franchise (women, blacks)Jun 12 04:44
DaemonXPthe US is a constitutional republicJun 12 04:44
the_mad_hatterAnd making it hard for the riff raff to take part in the political process.Jun 12 04:45
fewaDaemonXP, thats not the discussionJun 12 04:45
fewathe_mad_hatter, but where does a democracy exist?Jun 12 04:45
fewathis "democracy" you speak ofJun 12 04:45
the_mad_hatterYes, DaemonXP is right. It is a Constitutional Republic. But it's not a democracy.Jun 12 04:45
the_mad_hatterThat's a good question. I only know about a few countries.Jun 12 04:46
fewaLook at greece, was that a democracy?Jun 12 04:46
fewahow about the EU?Jun 12 04:46
fewaor rome?Jun 12 04:46
the_mad_hatterBritain and Canada for instance are not democracies.Jun 12 04:46
fewaI did this debate in my US history class onceJun 12 04:46
splosionThe way elections work in the UK, the wining party can win with less actual votes. As happened in the last two elections. Fun and games.Jun 12 04:46
the_mad_hatterGreece? No, for the same reason the US isn't.Jun 12 04:46
fewagreece in anciant timesJun 12 04:46
the_mad_hatterRome was an ogliarchyJun 12 04:46
the_mad_hatterThe EU is a horrid mess that looks like it was designed by Rube Goldberg.Jun 12 04:47
fewaThe conclusion i came to, but many could not agree, is that the US, at the time of its founding, was more democratic than anything that had ever existingJun 12 04:47
the_mad_hatterNo, Greece limited the number of "real people". Think slaves and women.Jun 12 04:47
fewaand that if anything is to be called a democracy, and thing comparable to the united states, then it would be the unted statesJun 12 04:47
fewaThis is not to say that the philosophical ideal was accomplishedJun 12 04:48
fewaor that concentrated power does not existJun 12 04:48
fewabut that as a large federal union, the US is more democratic than anything elseJun 12 04:48
fewathe EU is less democratic, as was Rome, or greeceJun 12 04:48
the_mad_hatterYou looked at the surface. Everything that you read has to be read through the assumptions of a man of the time (not woman).Jun 12 04:48
fewathe_mad_hatter, no other country or place of equal size ever got sufferage sooner than the USJun 12 04:49
the_mad_hatterWhen freedom is talked about, it is the freedom of rich white males.Jun 12 04:49
the_mad_hatterand few other countries kept slaves as long.Jun 12 04:49
fewathe_mad_hatter, the US was way ahead with universal white male sufferageJun 12 04:49
the_mad_hatterIn Canada slavery was outlawed in the 1790sJun 12 04:50
fewathe_mad_hatter, and france continues with class racial discriminations to this dayJun 12 04:50
oiaohmAustralia quite strange.   Its not a democracy its technically a monarchy.  Operations are a lot like a democracy.Jun 12 04:50
fewaIts hard to present as well over IRC< but the fundamental argument remainsJun 12 04:50
the_mad_hatterI'm not totally familiar with Australia, but assume as an ex-british colony it's similar to Canada. That makes it an ogliarchy.Jun 12 04:51
the_mad_hatterLike India, a place I am familiar with.Jun 12 04:51
fewathat if any comparable institution is to be considered a democracy, than US it a democracyJun 12 04:51
oiaohmAustralia way different to canada in goverment design.    Each state here was a independant colony at one point.Jun 12 04:52
fewathe_mad_hatter, your simple viewing in the negativeJun 12 04:52
the_mad_hatterfewa - no. If it isn't an orange, it isn't an orange. You can't declare it's an orange just because of the surface colour, the inside has to be right too.Jun 12 04:52
fewathe_mad_hatter, and also assuming that these oligarchs are somehow conspiringJun 12 04:52
the_mad_hatteroiaohm - so was each province. Newfoundland was a seperate country.Jun 12 04:52
oiaohmBiggest issue they still feud over what they should control.Jun 12 04:52
fewathe_mad_hatter, there is a difference between philosophy and realityJun 12 04:52
oiaohmAny alteration to constution requires everyone here to vote.Jun 12 04:53
fewathe_mad_hatter, perhaps I should have kept my mouth shut and let you go on your tiradeJun 12 04:53
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the_mad_hatteroiaohm - same shit happens here. And in the USA, because really there are 50 countries, not one.Jun 12 04:53
fewathe_mad_hatter, what country are you in?Jun 12 04:53
the_mad_hatterfewa - or just sit back and enjoy it. I'm like this all the time.Jun 12 04:53
the_mad_hatterSo have a few laughs.Jun 12 04:54
the_mad_hatterfewa - CanadaJun 12 04:54
fewathe_mad_hatter, its not laughs, its realityJun 12 04:54
twitterthe US voting franchise was supposed to be limited to literate, landowners who could bear arms.Jun 12 04:54
oiaohmAll out goverments can be stacked by the governer generals in each state that answer to the queen.Jun 12 04:54
the_mad_hatterYep, it's reality that the USA is not a democracy.Jun 12 04:54
twitterIt is nowJun 12 04:54
fewathe_mad_hatter, your fundamental argument is that every place on earth is a oligarchy, thats not very interestingJun 12 04:54
the_mad_hattertwitter - no. It's an ogliarcy, which takes the form of a one party state.Jun 12 04:55
oiaohmAustralia is techincally a monarchy,  But monarch mostly does nothing.Jun 12 04:55
fewathe_mad_hatter, its also speeks little about your characterJun 12 04:55
twitterWell, that's not from a lack of voting power.Jun 12 04:55
the_mad_hatteryes, but every country was set up by a group of toffs, to represent their best interests. So what do you think you are going to get in that case?Jun 12 04:56
twitterIt's from a lack of information.Jun 12 04:56
the_mad_hatterfewa - I'm the Designated Thug.Jun 12 04:56
fewathe_mad_hatter, and also says that you havn't actually thought these things throughJun 12 04:56
oiaohmIf our state dispute too much with each other its basically fire the goverment and vote in new ones.Jun 12 04:56
the_mad_hatterHell, I've been thinking about these things for over 40 years. It was 40 years ago that government first screwed me over.Jun 12 04:57
oiaohmWe normally have goverment sort out there difference.Jun 12 04:57
oiaohmTo avoid queen being required.Jun 12 04:57
twitterthe US, in theory, could change completely by elected representation.  It does not because people are misinformed and can't agree on beneficial changes.Jun 12 04:57
fewathe_mad_hatter, aha, your just anti-establishmentJun 12 04:58
oiaohmIn usa do the people have someone to request the goverment be nuked and start over.Jun 12 04:58
the_mad_hatterThe US suffers from several problems, including a media which doesn't do it's job.Jun 12 04:58
fewaand if you destroyed the establishment you would replace it with something almost identicalJun 12 04:58
twittercentralize media is doing it's job in the US, it's just not the job a press should doJun 12 04:58
the_mad_hatterNo, I'm a child of my time. I grew up in the 70s.Jun 12 04:58
oiaohmBasically been a part monarchy has its advantages.Jun 12 04:58
oiaohmBecause basically no one has ablosulte power to do anything.Jun 12 04:59
the_mad_hatteryeah, well after 911 it was interesting reading about events in the new York Times, and then in the Guardian, and the Toronto Sun. The differences of how certain incidents were reported were really entertaining.Jun 12 05:00
the_mad_hatterThe problem in the US, is that all the papers seem to tow the party line. Any American who didn't get part of their news from Canada or Britain was woefully misinformed.Jun 12 05:01
DaemonXPthe media reports what the government tells it toJun 12 05:01
oiaohmDoes the USA still have the right in each state to call for a vote of the people to break away from the main country.Jun 12 05:01
DaemonXPuhhhm, that's never been a rightJun 12 05:01
DaemonXPit's illegalJun 12 05:01
the_mad_hatterConsider the current health care debate in the USA. I've had many Americans commiserate with me about how bad the Canadian health Care system is. All of them were wrong.Jun 12 05:01
DaemonXPInsurrection ActJun 12 05:02
oiaohmIts legal here DaemonXPJun 12 05:02
the_mad_hatterIt's legal here too.Jun 12 05:02
DaemonXPthe feds will suppress the revoltJun 12 05:02
oiaohmIts even would be legal to run a vote to split a state in two.Jun 12 05:02
twitterCorporate controlled media is full of shit.Jun 12 05:02
DaemonXPand force the state to reintegrateJun 12 05:02
twitterHere and in other countries.Jun 12 05:02
oiaohmSo usa does not have central power limitation.Jun 12 05:03
oiaohmNo wonder its a mess.Jun 12 05:03
the_mad_hatterYep. Dissent is not allowed in the US of A. It's a scary country to travel in. Quite frankly I feel safer in China.Jun 12 05:03
twitterYou can sometimes glean truth by comparing the different brands of shit, they are differentiated by minor national interests.Jun 12 05:03
DaemonXPhttp://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Insurrection_ActJun 12 05:03
twitterIt is better to get your news from bloggers that work in various industries and can be trusted.Jun 12 05:03
DaemonXPstates do not have the right to secedeJun 12 05:03
DaemonXPeverJun 12 05:03
DaemonXPunder any circumstanceJun 12 05:03
DaemonXPperiodJun 12 05:03
the_mad_hatterThat said, Americans are wonderful people on the whole. Generous to a fault, and polite.Jun 12 05:04
oiaohmThere are some min countries inside australiaJun 12 05:04
oiaohmWhere people owned the land out right and just broke away and became there own countryJun 12 05:04
DaemonXPoiaohm: It's one of the reasons Puerto Rico hasn't formally asked to become a stateJun 12 05:04
DaemonXPas a territory, they can vote to leaveJun 12 05:04
twitterEveryone is wonderful.Jun 12 05:05
the_mad_hatterIt's funny. I felt safer wandering the streets of Washington DC at 2 AM than I did in rural Georgia and rural North Carolina.Jun 12 05:05
oiaohmOk the optisite is true here.Jun 12 05:05
the_mad_hatterAnd most people I know are scared witless of DCJun 12 05:05
twitterDC is one of the US murder capitols.  You can get in trouble there.Jun 12 05:05
oiaohmIf you are a territory you cannot vote to leave.Jun 12 05:05
DaemonXPWashing ton D.C.? Marion Barry, the mayor famous for 1. Letting rats get to the size of Buicks. 2 Smoking crack. and 3. Opposing equal rights for gay people.Jun 12 05:06
DaemonXPfucking corrupt townJun 12 05:06
oiaohmInstead you would have to upgrade to state then vote to leave.Jun 12 05:06
DaemonXPhighest murder rate in the countryJun 12 05:06
the_mad_hatterSo I've heard. I felt safe there though.Jun 12 05:06
DaemonXPthat DC?Jun 12 05:06
twitterDepends on where you go.Jun 12 05:06
oiaohmState requires you to have a fully operational goverment in your own right.Jun 12 05:06
the_mad_hatterYep. Hell, I went all over.Jun 12 05:06
the_mad_hatterI had people cross the street to avoid me, but that's nothing unusual.Jun 12 05:06
oiaohmWhere a territory here does not have to have an operational goverment.Jun 12 05:06
DaemonXPIndiana doesn't have an operational government right now :PJun 12 05:07
the_mad_hatterfewa - no, I don't want to tear everything down. I want to have a real democracy, where the fat cats don't run everything.Jun 12 05:07
the_mad_hatterfewa - and by a lot of people's definition of fat cat, I are one.Jun 12 05:07
DaemonXPwe have a governor and a state congress that are becoming Lord of the FliesJun 12 05:07
oiaohmIe anarchy  is a permited goverment type in a tertoriery of australia.Jun 12 05:07
DaemonXPblaming each other and hiding under their desksJun 12 05:08
twitterare you independently wealthy?Jun 12 05:08
the_mad_hatterwhat state?Jun 12 05:08
DaemonXPIndiana sucksJun 12 05:08
twitterIf you have to work for a living, you are not a fat cat.Jun 12 05:08
the_mad_hatterI gotta go there this year.Jun 12 05:08
DaemonXPneither party has a clear advantage and none in the same party seem to agree on most thingsJun 12 05:08
DaemonXPso it's a toss up with every bill that comes upJun 12 05:09
the_mad_hatterWhite, upper middle class, 2 degrees of seperation of Barack Obama.Jun 12 05:09
oiaohmThat sounds like tazmania here a while back.Jun 12 05:09
DaemonXPthey have failed to pass a budgetJun 12 05:09
oiaohmQueen basically threated them and it turned out to be the best run goverment in ages.Jun 12 05:09
the_mad_hatterIt's the best way for a North American government to work. Keeps them honest.Jun 12 05:09
DaemonXPso they're going into a special session this monthJun 12 05:09
DaemonXPto try to come up with something the governor will agree to signJun 12 05:09
oiaohmIf you don't make the goverment work I will dismiss you and get another goverment in ok.Jun 12 05:10
DaemonXPand if he doesn't, nobody has the votes to overrule himJun 12 05:10
oiaohmWorks really well.Jun 12 05:10
the_mad_hatterWe have a minority government right now thank god. No party can do anything without getting help from another.Jun 12 05:10
oiaohmThey ended up banning party room talks on stuff for a while.Jun 12 05:10
DaemonXPthis is going to end badlyJun 12 05:10
the_mad_hatterLooks like we might have an election this summer.Jun 12 05:10
DaemonXPthey may have to end up shutting down the government here if they can't agree on a budget in timeJun 12 05:10
oiaohmYou don't have a queen to step in and scare the crap out of them DaemonXPJun 12 05:11
the_mad_hatterdaemonxp - and that's a problem why?Jun 12 05:11
DaemonXPbecauseJun 12 05:11
the_mad_hattersounds like heaven to me.Jun 12 05:11
DaemonXPthey keep the parts of the government nobody likes runningJun 12 05:11
DaemonXPlike the policeJun 12 05:11
DaemonXP:PJun 12 05:11
DaemonXPso you can get charged for having an expired plateJun 12 05:11
the_mad_hatterThe best government is the least government, and the least government is no government at all.Jun 12 05:11
DaemonXPbecause the license branch was shut downJun 12 05:12
oiaohmOk if budget does not pass it is all out.Jun 12 05:12
oiaohmThey have 3 attempts total to pass the budgetJun 12 05:12
the_mad_hatterwe had a strike at the licensing offices once. Police gave out cautions.Jun 12 05:12
DaemonXPthings will get hairy if they don't pass a budgetJun 12 05:12
oiaohmThen its back to the people.Jun 12 05:12
DaemonXPI made sure to renew my plate and licensesJun 12 05:12
DaemonXPbefore it was even dueJun 12 05:12
oiaohmWhat will happen if it don't pass there.Jun 12 05:13
oiaohmWill they get kicked out of office automatically.Jun 12 05:13
DaemonXPstate agencies will start idlingJun 12 05:13
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the_mad_hatterThat's one of the problems in the states, you have a lot of laws that are written either/or, and don't take anything else into account.Jun 12 05:13
DaemonXPlike the license branch may be open 2 days a weekJun 12 05:13
DaemonXPnot 5Jun 12 05:13
DaemonXPso it'll be a 5 hour line to get renewedJun 12 05:13
the_mad_hatteroh crap - it's after midnight. see you.Jun 12 05:13
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DaemonXPthat's why I took care of mineJun 12 05:13
DaemonXP:PJun 12 05:13
oiaohmDaemonXP: so its not fast cure like here.Jun 12 05:13
DaemonXPthe Democrats and Republicans are going to keep squabblingJun 12 05:14
oiaohmRight you did not get it past back to the polls we go.Jun 12 05:14
DaemonXPI can tell alreadyJun 12 05:14
oiaohmIt solve the problem.Jun 12 05:14
DaemonXPwe need to move to recall the governorJun 12 05:14
DaemonXPbut nobody is doing that eitherJun 12 05:14
oiaohmOur rules here simple say if you cannot come to agreement on the import items you don't deserve to be there.Jun 12 05:14
DaemonXPDaniels is one of Buswh's buddiesJun 12 05:15
oiaohmItems like how much car rego should be.Jun 12 05:15
DaemonXPshould be hanged right next to each otherJun 12 05:15
oiaohmThose can be messed with.Jun 12 05:15
DaemonXP*Bush'sJun 12 05:15
oiaohmI guess you can put up the same topic there a unlimited number of times on votes too DaemonXPJun 12 05:16
DaemonXPyesJun 12 05:16
oiaohmHere there is a limit of 3 times.Jun 12 05:16
DaemonXPunfortunatelyJun 12 05:16
oiaohm3 time don't pass back to polls.Jun 12 05:16
DaemonXPthis can go on til the state is broke and there's no mandate to finance anythingJun 12 05:16
oiaohmDouble disolution elections.Jun 12 05:17
DaemonXPthe state can't spend any money it has without a law authorizing itJun 12 05:17
DaemonXPso the state is sitting on top of $2 billion it can't touch right nowJun 12 05:17
oiaohmWe simple don't get into that problemJun 12 05:17
DaemonXPin a reserve fund aloneJun 12 05:17
oiaohmBecause the next budget must be pass if it don't and double disolution elections happen old budget stays in place.Jun 12 05:18
DaemonXPthe governor's budget depends largely on the stimulus money from the Feds pushed for by ObamaJun 12 05:18
DaemonXPbut Daniels is acting like it's all coming from himJun 12 05:18
DaemonXPI really hate that manJun 12 05:18
oiaohmBoy you really need our double disolution rules.Jun 12 05:19
DaemonXPhe's selling state assets to some Australian-Spanish companyJun 12 05:19
DaemonXPthe man should be shotJun 12 05:19
DaemonXPfor high treasonJun 12 05:19
DaemonXPbut instead they make him the governorJun 12 05:19
oiaohmAt least now I under stand why the USA is so screwed up.Jun 12 05:20
oiaohmThis no power limtiation built in anywhere.Jun 12 05:21
oiaohmHow long can the legally sit without passing the budget.Jun 12 05:21
oiaohmhopefully not a unlimited ammount of time.Jun 12 05:21
DaemonXPyesJun 12 05:22
DaemonXPthey can fuck up anything they wantJun 12 05:22
DaemonXPas badly as they wantJun 12 05:22
DaemonXPand we can't do anything til the 2010 mid-term electionJun 12 05:22
DaemonXPat which time they start pandering to the religiousJun 12 05:23
DaemonXPsucking up to them for votesJun 12 05:23
DaemonXPtry passing laws agaisnt gay marriageJun 12 05:23
DaemonXPwhich is already illegalJun 12 05:23
DaemonXPand then they have anotehr 2 years to do anything they wantJun 12 05:23
oiaohmours has 3 years terms.Jun 12 05:24
DaemonXPhouse is 2 yearsJun 12 05:24
DaemonXPsenate is 6Jun 12 05:24
DaemonXPgovernor is 4Jun 12 05:24
oiaohmsenate here is 6Jun 12 05:24
oiaohmgoverner here is apponted.Jun 12 05:24
DaemonXPdirectly elected hereJun 12 05:24
oiaohmQueen oversite.Jun 12 05:24
oiaohmSo it really make no difference how we get governer.Jun 12 05:25
DaemonXPwhoever gets the most votes winsJun 12 05:25
DaemonXPperiodJun 12 05:25
oiaohmQueen can dismiss a governer or refuse to take one too.Jun 12 05:25
DaemonXPsee what the problem is? They don't ever get held accountable because they play fringe issues to get disproportionate numbers of religious fanatics out to voteJun 12 05:26
oiaohmBoth parities have to be happy with the governer same with the queen.Jun 12 05:26
DaemonXPthen they're back in and can do anything all over againJun 12 05:26
oiaohmAlso here by law you must vote.Jun 12 05:26
oiaohmIf you don't vote you have to pay fine.Jun 12 05:26
DaemonXPyou don't have to here, a lot of people don't even register toJun 12 05:26
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DaemonXPcause that puts you in the jury duty poolJun 12 05:27
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oiaohmNot registering to vote is also a fine.Jun 12 05:27
DaemonXPI don't want it to be illegalJun 12 05:27
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DaemonXPI don't want unmotivated people votingJun 12 05:27
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DaemonXPit's bad enough that there's enough idiots that DO showJun 12 05:27
oiaohmSimple problem about 20 percent and be motivate by media.Jun 12 05:28
oiaohmSo who as the best PR in the USA more often than not wine.Jun 12 05:28
oiaohmwine/winsJun 12 05:28
oiaohmEveryone voting normally removes that problem.Jun 12 05:28
oiaohmTo be correct someone going masivelly heavy on PR most likely will lose here.Jun 12 05:29
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oiaohmThat is why your disaster support system suck's.  Here in case of disaster the militrary can be sent straight in without local goverment approval but command and control must answer to local goverment.Jun 12 05:32
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splosionSwiftfox at 303.456 mb. FFFFFFFFFUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUJun 12 05:48
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splosiongonna kill itJun 12 05:50
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neighborleemy my..how low do these mono supporters go.. I think g.michaels along with eet and d. brown have about hit the lowest points by now... and they dont even realize it..I guess misery LOVES company and atm they are mired in it o_0Jun 12 06:03
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tessierSo they are separating IE from Windows 7 in Europe. I thought it was impossible to separate? ;)Jun 12 06:17
neighborleelolJun 12 06:17
twitterWhat low stuff are those trolls up to now?Jun 12 06:19
neighborleeg.michaelsJun 12 06:27
neighborleeits ok I took care of it ;0-Jun 12 06:27
neighborleeharJun 12 06:27
neighborleeits pretty bad actuallly..dont look without crap-o-meter firmly engagedJun 12 06:28
neighborlee:)Jun 12 06:28
neighborleetwitter, http://boycottnovell.com/2009/06/11/manners/comment-page-1/#comment-66088 < right derJun 12 06:32
neighborleetwitter, second post from bottomJun 12 06:32
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twitterlooks like the usualJun 12 06:56
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twitterSchestowitz, congratulations on your thesis.  Just saw that.Jun 12 07:21
MinceRwhat's the thesis about?Jun 12 07:21
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EDavidBurghis thesis is the sum of his writings on BN :)Jun 12 07:27
splosionthat must have to be a few million words at least. the first thing that struck me when I first visited BN is how enormous the place isJun 12 07:38
splosionhrmm. another RAM alias for my rc file. ps aux | awk '{ x += $6 } END { print "Total ram in use: " (x/1024) "mb." }'Jun 12 07:39
splosionhttp://business.asiaone.com/Business/News/Story/A1Story20090612-148027.htmlJun 12 07:41
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splosionhttp://www.smh.com.au/news/technology/biztech/eu-says-skeptical-over-unbundling-explorer-from-windows-7/2009/06/12/1244664833119.htmlJun 12 07:42
splosionhttp://government.zdnet.com/?p=4924Jun 12 07:42
splosionhttp://www.pcworld.com/article/166561/ec_to_pursue_antitrust_case_despite_microsofts_ie_decision.htmlJun 12 07:43
splosionIts lawyer, Thomas Vinje, who also represents a trade group called ECIS which speaks for software giants IBM, Oracle and many other Microsoft rivals, said in an email that Microsoft's action "is an acknowledgement of the validity of the Commission's case against it."  Vinje added that stripping out IE from Windows does not go far enough.Jun 12 07:44
splosionooohJun 12 07:44
ThistleWebwhat's the betting IE will be slipped in "accidentally" as a critical update?Jun 12 07:45
ThistleWebwhoopsie, it thought you were in the USJun 12 07:45
kentmaMicrosoft are in such trouble now that they'll have to consider cooperating soon.  I suspect that it will be too late to save them or Windows, though.Jun 12 07:46
splosionyeah. ten years ago they laughed at anti-trust. I don't think they could afford to nowJun 12 07:46
kentmahow things have changed ...Jun 12 07:47
splosiondidja see the news that there will be 18 versions of windows 7?Jun 12 07:48
kentmafunnily, the "proprietary" world which MS is soon keen to promote has gone to such lengths to attack its own customers that it's driving them to alternatives where you can't commit a crime just by moving the media or software from one machine to another...Jun 12 07:48
splosionpretty crazyJun 12 07:48
kentma18 versions?Jun 12 07:48
splosionyeahJun 12 07:48
kentmaahhh, they're trying to take on Linux (loads of variants)...Jun 12 07:48
splosion6 vanilla, 6 without ie, and six more without WMP eitherJun 12 07:48
splosionthey had to do something similar in Europe with Vista. No one bought it, thoughJun 12 07:49
kentmaindividuals don't get the choice - they buy pre-installs.Jun 12 07:49
splosionwell yeah. It was availble for OEMs, and none of them bought itJun 12 07:49
kentmaI wonder why...Jun 12 07:49
splosionI see more of the same this time aroundJun 12 07:49
kentmawhat this means is that MS failed to deal with the last anti-trust case properly, then.Jun 12 07:50
splosionwell we'll see. should be interesting what happeneJun 12 07:50
splosionsJun 12 07:50
kentma:-)Jun 12 07:50
ThistleWebas much as it's going bad in the EU for them, the US is improving for themJun 12 07:50
ThistleWebtheir monitoring period ends next year I thinkJun 12 07:51
ThistleWebthe woman in charge now says Microsoft are last century, Google are this centuryJun 12 07:51
ThistleWebso they'll be able to do all sorts of shit unmonitored in the US soonJun 12 07:51
kentmareally?  They're still a huge company with massive influence.Jun 12 07:51
ThistleWebwhich will help ease the wounds of being forced to compete in the EUJun 12 07:52
ThistleWebit's just repositioning the same army of lawyers and lobbyistsJun 12 07:52
ThistleWebthose who currently bully the US govt can be thinned out a bit, and sent to reinforce the army bullying the EUJun 12 07:53
kentmainteresting point - I hadn't considered that, but you're quite right.Jun 12 07:53
splosionIt has to be said, MS have done a cracking job with the Win7 hype campaign. Really impressive stuff. You see glowing recommendations for it *everywhere*, even on Linux forums.Jun 12 07:54
kentmathey still have exceptionally deep pocketsJun 12 07:55
ThistleWebamong the usual tactics, expect the "they're anti-American" card being played a lotJun 12 07:55
splosionWhat next? they'll be telling us the EU are being "un-American".Jun 12 07:55
ThistleWebsplosion: of course, we're un-AmericanJun 12 07:56
ThistleWebwe always have beenJun 12 07:56
splosion:)Jun 12 07:56
ThistleWeblolJun 12 07:56
ThistleWebthat one is reserved for their fellow US competitionJun 12 07:56
kentmait's a bizarre argument, and I had no idea it even existed until someone used it on my in a usenet debate on some minor history issue...  when I replied by suggesting the opponent might be being "anti-British", he didn't know how to respond.  Such emotionally loaded but meaningless arguments are a great irritant.Jun 12 07:56
kentmaas Dilbert said:  "never argue with idiots, they bring you down to their level and then beat you with their experience".  When you really think about that statement, it's 100% true.Jun 12 07:57
splosionHahahJun 12 07:57
splosionI've been working through the Dilbert archives.Jun 12 07:57
splosioncurrently here http://dilbert.com/fast/1991-12-03/Jun 12 07:57
ThistleWebthe funny thing about Microsoft I think is that they are the corporate version of the US government in their attitudes towards other countries / companiesJun 12 07:58
ThistleWebthey like enforing their willJun 12 07:58
ThistleWebenforcingJun 12 07:58
ThistleWebfor their agendaJun 12 07:58
kentmaDilbert was a firm favourite with us Telco folk more or less from the start, as he was a "telco" guy, but his appeal has broadeneed considerably.Jun 12 07:58
ThistleWebat any costJun 12 07:58
ThistleWebanything they do to gain influence is "legit"Jun 12 07:58
ThistleWebthey buy, bully, bribe or threaten others to go along with themJun 12 07:58
ThistleWebwhen they do, they're trooted out for the cameras as a proud partnerJun 12 07:59
ThistleWebtrotted*Jun 12 07:59
ThistleWebone is the govt version, one is the corporate versionJun 12 07:59
kentmaI was in a joint-venture with a UK and US company a few years ago.  The UK parent posted its results against the UK financial year (which is the Roman one, basically).Jun 12 07:59
kentmaOne of the US guys asked how the UK company was allowed to do this, *and* what *they* could do to stop it!Jun 12 07:59
kentmaThe attitude was amazing.Jun 12 08:00
splosionbeing a Linux user for a few years has changed my perception of things. I don't find the fact that PC shops *only* sell Windows ridiculous, I find the fact that no one questions it ridiculous.Jun 12 08:00
ThistleWebso the US govt criticsing Microsoft for it's abuses and attitude to laws would be a tad too close for comfort as they do the same at a government levelJun 12 08:00
kentmawell, so do HMG, to be honest...Jun 12 08:01
ThistleWebevery major power hasJun 12 08:01
ThistleWebthe brits used toJun 12 08:01
ThistleWebTony thought by hanging onto the US tails they could continue toJun 12 08:01
splosionDidn't Ballmer thraten to outsource a bunch of jobs to foreign countries lately? You could argue that's anti-Americanism.Jun 12 08:01
kentmanot used to, very much do.  Just look at the "expenses" stuff recently.Jun 12 08:01
kentmasplosion: which is the point - it's a meaningless statement.  There is no body-American - it's at best an idea.Jun 12 08:02
splosionThe expenses scandal is brilliant. The entire government is falling apart.Jun 12 08:02
ThistleWebby "used to" I should have said their effects are much less nowJun 12 08:02
ThistleWebbut yes, they still doJun 12 08:02
kentma:-)Jun 12 08:02
splosionkentma: yupJun 12 08:02
ThistleWebthe sad thing is that although the British Empire has fallen, some still think it's a good ideaJun 12 08:03
ThistleWebthe idea of empireJun 12 08:03
kentmaIt was the first economic empire, and the biggest ever I think, and like all imposed governance systems, ultimately unsustainable.Jun 12 08:04
splosionThistleWeb: you should see the BBC's "Have your say" site. They had to write an article about why so many people voted for the BNP lately, because almost every single poster there is a rabid right-wing xenophobic bigot.Jun 12 08:04
ThistleWebapart from Rome?Jun 12 08:04
kentmaMorally deeply questionable *at bset*.Jun 12 08:04
ThistleWebsplosion: lolJun 12 08:04
kentmaThistleWeb: Rome's empire was big, but just European and North African, although it lasted a really long time.Jun 12 08:04
ThistleWebevery empire rules within it's timeJun 12 08:04
ThistleWebwith the tools of it's timeJun 12 08:05
ThistleWebthe Brits ruled the seasJun 12 08:05
ThistleWebthe US rule with ecconomics and technologyJun 12 08:05
kentmawell, did rule, it's all crumbling now.Jun 12 08:05
ThistleWebthe tools and weapons change but the intent is the sameJun 12 08:05
kentmaone interesting thing is how empire phases continue to lessen in duration.Jun 12 08:06
ThistleWebpulling resources to the centreJun 12 08:06
kentmaThistleWeb: of course, the economic situation now is dire - the US is in hoc to the planet... not sustainable.Jun 12 08:07
ThistleWebthe Brits and those before them had to have colonies / outposts with military presences to enforce obedience, the US can wipe a countries economy out with the stroke of a penJun 12 08:07
ThistleWebthe west have long consumed way more than their fair share of resources, this is nothing new to anyone who's actually looked at itJun 12 08:08
splosionThe corporations can, you meanJun 12 08:08
ThistleWebit's coming home to roost now thoughJun 12 08:08
kentmaThistleWeb: oh, I agree, but the US is in enormous debt.Jun 12 08:08
ThistleWebnot just the USJun 12 08:08
ThistleWebthe west in generalJun 12 08:08
ThistleWebthe only reason western consumers can afford to buy luxury goods is because they are made at a fraction of US labour costs in places like ChinaJun 12 08:10
ThistleWebif those same goods were made at US prices, their retail value would be WAY too expensive for the average consumerJun 12 08:10
ThistleWebbecause western consumers have a lifestyle of throwaway items, gadgets, movies etc we take these for grantedJun 12 08:11
splosionThere was a little-seen Government report here in the UK, recently, about the economic plan for the future. It basically said that the model for the future isn't going to change. For if you try to reform the economy, pensions and mortgages might suffer. Y'know, the pensions and mortgages that were destroyed by the current way of doing things.Jun 12 08:12
ThistleWebwe take for granted the ability to buy lots of food we may not eat on a whimJun 12 08:12
ThistleWebit's complexJun 12 08:12
splosionShame it got swept under the rug. That piece of legislation has ensured that, in the UK at least, the economy will collapse again, and again, and again. Nice going.Jun 12 08:12
ThistleWebyou can't equalise overnight, it will kill the ecconomyJun 12 08:12
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ThistleWebyou have to gradually equalise itJun 12 08:13
ThistleWebwe in the west have grown too used to cheap goodsJun 12 08:13
ThistleWebwe've gotten used to our wages buying throwaway luxuriesJun 12 08:14
splosionNot me. I'm very frugal. Extremely frugal. I'm a penny-pinching bastard. And I've never gone overdrawn or used a credit card of any kind or even so much as taken a loan.Jun 12 08:15
splosionLots of my colleagues have been screwed over. It's pretty scary, really.Jun 12 08:15
ThistleWebLinux and FOSS helps you be frugal :PJun 12 08:15
splosionAye, that it does.Jun 12 08:16
ThistleWebya know, somthing occured to me about the ToriesJun 12 08:16
splosionoh?Jun 12 08:16
ThistleWebthey champion buisness as the model to follow for efficient solutions to problemsJun 12 08:16
splosion(and look how well that turned out)Jun 12 08:17
ThistleWebin business "bigger is better"Jun 12 08:17
ThistleWebyou seek to always grow, buy other business to absorb into your chainJun 12 08:17
ThistleWebso why is it that they also champion small government?Jun 12 08:17
ThistleWebit's the oppositeJun 12 08:17
ThistleWebwhere "smaller is better"Jun 12 08:18
ThistleWebother than the obvious "govt needs to stay the hell away from us screwing our customers"Jun 12 08:18
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ushimitsudokihowdy pilgrimJun 12 08:19
ThistleWebthe Blair / Brown Labour govt have been basicly Tories with red ties onJun 12 08:19
splosionayeJun 12 08:19
ThistleWebhey ushimitsudokiJun 12 08:19
splosionWhenever anyone tells me businesses can do a better job I just say "Trains"Jun 12 08:19
ThistleWebbut traditionally the Tories have always been a party of landowners / business owners / home owners who will side with employers rather than employeesJun 12 08:20
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ThistleWebsplosion: yep, there's no example I can think of where a private solution either full or part, has given a better deal for the tax payerJun 12 08:21
splosionThe longer version being that under British Rail we had more services, more carriages, more staff, better wages, cheaper tickets, less delays. We even had restaurant carriages! And it cost us a THIRD of what it costs us now as far as our tax money goes. Making it private made it all ten times worseJun 12 08:21
ThistleWebit's either cut services and / or increased prices and complaintsJun 12 08:21
ThistleWebit's two options on the table where there's a third option they don't aknowlegdeJun 12 08:22
ThistleWebone is the old "govt manages it, and it's shit because they have no clue" or "let private companies manage it for profit who cut corners for money"Jun 12 08:22
splosionto be fair, though, a badly-managed service will always be a failure, whether it is public- or privately-funded.Jun 12 08:23
ThistleWebthere's a not-for-profit optionJun 12 08:23
ThistleWebsplosion: of courseJun 12 08:23
ThistleWebfor me, public services should always be run for the public goodJun 12 08:23
ThistleWebowned by the publicJun 12 08:23
splosionayeJun 12 08:24
ThistleWebprivate companies can compete in some areas, but there should always be a public optionJun 12 08:24
ThistleWebdamn socialists :PJun 12 08:24
splosionIt's stupid as well to make something as basic as trains private. There is no competition. the only trains I see at my local station are all from the same company. They've just split up the country and given a monopoly to a few businesses. That's not how capitalism is supposed to work! When my ticket fare goes up, as it does monthly, there is no other serviceJun 12 08:25
ThistleWebthe main reason behind the "lets privatise everything" wasn't about getting it more efficient for users, it's about rewarding the business owners who donated to (and lobbied) government with contracts to make them money, and have solutions appear to announce without public money being affectedJun 12 08:27
ThistleWebI remember Blair proudly announcing the opening of 40 new care homes for the elderlyJun 12 08:27
ThistleWebwithout mentioning that 80 had to closeJun 12 08:27
splosionthe very same reasoning behind PFIJun 12 08:28
ThistleWebPFI is like buying stuff from a loan shark and displaying it proudly as an achievement, while neglecting to mention the deal you signed to get them or the repayment detailsJun 12 08:28
splosionwhat is really infuriating about PFI is that now we're completely broke and THEY'RE STILL BLOODY DOING ITJun 12 08:28
splosionDidja hear the one about Inverness Airport?Jun 12 08:29
ThistleWebof course, PFI was one of Browns brain childs when he was in 11Jun 12 08:29
ThistleWebhe;s not gonna abandon it now he's moved next doorJun 12 08:29
ThistleWebfunny thing is, PFI gets short term brownie points before the bills come inJun 12 08:30
splosionThe council got a new Wing built as a PFU scheme. The company built it for just over 11million. Inverness Council then had to pay 2million every two years for thirty years. The costs became so ridiculous in the end that the council had to buy out the contract (costing yet more millions to do so).Jun 12 08:30
splosionPFI*Jun 12 08:30
ThistleWebBlair got the brownie points, and left office, only for Brown to step in and have to deal with the billsJun 12 08:30
ThistleWebyep, loan shark dealsJun 12 08:30
ThistleWebit's the same all over the country with PFI projectsJun 12 08:31
splosionThe thing is though, Blair left because people hated him. That was the only reason. You wouldn't know it from the news coverage it got though, or from people's opinions on it now. A masterwork of spin.Jun 12 08:31
ThistleWebDJ TonyJun 12 08:32
splosionhahaJun 12 08:32
ThistleWeband Mixmaster AlistairJun 12 08:32
ThistleWebrockin a news conference near you soonJun 12 08:32
ThistleWebin an altered reality extravaganzaJun 12 08:33
ThistleWebso good you'll really believe the Iraq war was based on truthJun 12 08:33
splosionWhat's the reason this week, anyhow?Jun 12 08:34
ThistleWebI reckon Tony is just thrilled that the public mood is away from IraqJun 12 08:36
ThistleWeb"don't mention the war" - Basil FawltyJun 12 08:36
splosionhahahaJun 12 08:36
splosionThe whole situation now. I don't know. it just feels like an extremely slow train wreckJun 12 08:37
ThistleWebit works for someJun 12 08:38
splosion"I did nothing wrong, and to prove it I'm going to pay back all that money I stole!"Jun 12 08:39
kentmaTony?Jun 12 08:39
splosionkentma: no, just half the members of ParliamentJun 12 08:39
ThistleWebyeah, the funny thing is how they all claim they didnt do anything wrong.........but they didJun 12 08:39
ThistleWeball of themJun 12 08:39
splosionsureJun 12 08:40
kentmaindeed.Jun 12 08:40
ThistleWebwe ellect these people for their judgementJun 12 08:40
splosion"We didn't break any of the rules we made up for ourselves!!"Jun 12 08:40
kentmado we?  I thought we elected them on the basis of a series of party pledges which we don't really believe that they'll deliver on anyway.Jun 12 08:40
ThistleWebso they can take all of the information, scrutinise it, and come up with a judgement on it, on our behalfsJun 12 08:40
ThistleWebso when they go to the claims office, and are told what they can claimJun 12 08:41
ThistleWebnot one of them says "hey, this aint right" and makes a fuss to get it changedJun 12 08:41
ThistleWebnot oneJun 12 08:41
ThistleWebdidn't they see the obvious?Jun 12 08:41
kentmawhy would they?  where else can you get the state to clean your moat for you?Jun 12 08:41
ThistleWebin which case I question their ability to do the jobJun 12 08:41
kentmaah, yeah, Brussels!Jun 12 08:41
ThistleWebor did they see it, and choose to keep schtum? in which case I question their integrityJun 12 08:42
kentmaIt's the same everywhere.  Wasn't some governor looking to sell Obama's seat recently?Jun 12 08:42
ThistleWebif they did keep schtum, they chose their personal careers over the peopleJun 12 08:42
kentmaIn the EU, they refuse to publish anything on expenses - it's totally corruptJun 12 08:42
splosionMy father's pension was wiped out, and he's having to work even though he had hoped to retire by now. He turned down a job because it was over 50 miles away and he said it was too far to commute. The benefits office took his benefits away because they said that wasn't a valid excuse. He was *fuming* when it turned out the Minister responsible for that rule >>Jun 12 08:43
ThistleWebif they speak out, and something changes, a LOT of noses will be pulled from the trough and they can kiss any promotions goodbye. poliitics is based on loyalty, they will be a pariahJun 12 08:43
kentmasplosion: I can see it coming... was getting his mortgage paid, only he didn't have one...Jun 12 08:43
kentmaThistleWeb: the country-club issue is a massive problemJun 12 08:44
ThistleWebor did they take advantage as many didJun 12 08:44
ThistleWebno matter which way you look at it, they ALL did something wrongJun 12 08:44
splosion>>used the same excuse when his place of residence was ten miles away from parliament. "I used taxpayers money to get a place nearer to Parliament" he said.Jun 12 08:44
splosionsuch hypocrisyJun 12 08:45
ThistleWebanother question about the pro-UK rule people, like UKIP and the ToriesJun 12 08:45
ThistleWebtheir argument is that laws for England should be made in England (Westminster), and should be ellected by the people of EnglandJun 12 08:46
ThistleWebthat they shouldnt live under laws created on foreign soilJun 12 08:46
ThistleWebfair enough? so what about laws made in Westminster affecting Scotland, Wales etcJun 12 08:47
ThistleWebthe coloniesJun 12 08:47
ThistleWebwhy is it ok for Scots to live with rules made in EnglandJun 12 08:47
ThistleWebit's even more stark for the coloniesJun 12 08:47
ThistleWebBermuda took in 2 Chinese former Gtmo inmatesJun 12 08:48
splosionThese people need to learn a thing or two. We don't follow any European Laws. We ratify Conventions made in Europe and then make a new Law of our own that complies with it. Well all right it's the same consequence, but still.Jun 12 08:48
ThistleWebthe UK are furious because they still have controlJun 12 08:48
ThistleWebwhy should Bermuda peeps not have laws made in Bermuda? Why should they accept laws made in the UK?Jun 12 08:48
ThistleWebit seems that it's all dependant on who is in chargeJun 12 08:49
splosionI hate the people who complain about the "EU Human Rights rules". Every part of their argument against it is wrongJun 12 08:49
ThistleWebnot the emotive principle they try to sell you onJun 12 08:49
splosionThistleWeb: would you advocate devolution for states in the Commonwealth?Jun 12 08:50
ThistleWebusually those who are -anti-european tend to be those who refuse to allow independence for parts of the UKJun 12 08:51
splosionThey should vote BNP. It won't take Nick griffin long to look at a map of Europe and think, "Hrmm, britain isn't big enough."Jun 12 08:52
ThistleWebsplosion:  I'd like to see each case on merit, a full disclosure of the pros and cons of the decision, with "best case", "most likely case" and "worst case" and give people the choice based on factsJun 12 08:52
ThistleWebWales & Scotland are two different countries, what might be better for one, may not be for the otherJun 12 08:53
ThistleWebsame applies to every other exampleJun 12 08:53
ThistleWebright now we have the nationalists for each trying to tell you everything is a pro for independance, and the national parties telling you the oppositeJun 12 08:53
ThistleWebthe reality is that some stuff would be better, some would be worseJun 12 08:54
ThistleWebit's disengenious to suggest otherwiseJun 12 08:54
splosionIt's the same for Northern Ireland. There are way too many people on both sides of the fence.Jun 12 08:54
ThistleWebI had an SNP councellor at my door during one ellection, I asked him what we'd loseJun 12 08:54
ThistleWebhe told me nothingJun 12 08:54
ThistleWebmy response was "so there'll be SIX places on the UN with vetos then?Jun 12 08:55
splosionhahahaJun 12 08:55
ThistleWebthe UK will still have itJun 12 08:55
ThistleWebScotland wouldntJun 12 08:55
ThistleWebso we'd lose thatJun 12 08:55
ThistleWebimagine if THAT happened. the US would split into 50 statesJun 12 08:55
ThistleWebwith 50 votesJun 12 08:56
ThistleWebenough to kill any desentJun 12 08:56
splosionI Hate the permanent security council stuff. 130 vote yes, UK or US vote no, and the whole thing is kaputJun 12 08:56
ThistleWebwithout bothering with the tiresome effort of trying to bully or bribe anyone for a voteJun 12 08:56
ThistleWebthere should be no vetos at allJun 12 08:56
ThistleWebbut there currently is, and we'd lose one if we split from the UKJun 12 08:57
ThistleWebthat was one I could think of, there would be plenty more the professionals would spotJun 12 08:57
ThistleWebthe point is that we need to be told the pros and cons and be given the choiseJun 12 08:57
ThistleWebit may be that on balance Scotland would be better off as part of the UKJun 12 08:58
ThistleWebit may notJun 12 08:59
ThistleWebI'm not stupid enough to vote on something that important with my heartJun 12 08:59
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splosionthat makes senseJun 12 09:00
ThistleWebthe whole permenant members thing is just a victors table from WWIIJun 12 09:00
ThistleWeband Chine because of the size, they need a aseat tooJun 12 09:01
splosionIt would be rather foolhardy to charge towards the polling booth yelling "bannockburn! bannockburn! ye English bastards!!!"Jun 12 09:01
ThistleWebUK< US, France and Russia were essensially the ones in Berlin at the end of WWIIJun 12 09:01
ThistleWeblolJun 12 09:01
splosion(I had a roommate at university who actually used to shout Bannockburn! when he got drunk. Sorry)Jun 12 09:02
ThistleWeball sides try to get you to vote emotionally, the same way "news"papers do with headlines and stories...rather than judge for yourselfJun 12 09:02
splosionwell yeah. It's the same for everything.Jun 12 09:02
ThistleWebso he had a patriotic Scotish blend of Tourettes thenJun 12 09:03
ThistleWebmust be something in the waterJun 12 09:03
ThistleWebwhen they get you emotional, they can control your actions easierJun 12 09:03
ThistleWebwhich is often easier than trying to explain stuff and hoping they agree with youJun 12 09:04
splosionSure. Just think how much surveillance is good for catching sexual predators. YOUR CHILDREN could be at risk from SICKO paedophile MONSTERS lurking in their schools RIGHT NOWJun 12 09:04
ThistleWebspecially nowadays where more and more people have the attention span of a retarded goldfishJun 12 09:05
ThistleWebeasily distracted by celeb baublesJun 12 09:05
splosionNot so much nowJun 12 09:05
splosionit's harder for people to read celebrity pap now that everyone is a pauperJun 12 09:06
splosionIt's partly the reason people are so pissed off with the Gov now, I think. The distractions aren't useful when you're out of a jobJun 12 09:06
ThistleWebit is funny how some people will live their lives obsessed with celebs and their lifestyles, spending every penny on magazines etc not realising they could live SOME of that themselves if they just stopped throwing money awayJun 12 09:07
ThistleWebit;s like an addictionJun 12 09:07
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_Goblinmorning all...Jun 12 09:10
ThistleWebit's like peeps who take great stock in building all sorts of useless trivia like who was no1 in week X, year Y, how many sold etcJun 12 09:10
splosionalohaJun 12 09:10
ThistleWebhey _GoblinJun 12 09:10
ThistleWebtotally pointless triviaJun 12 09:10
ThistleWebwell, unless you do pub quizzesJun 12 09:11
splosionHah. I pride myself on pointless trivia. It's a great way to start conversationsJun 12 09:11
ThistleWebor argue a lot with your matesJun 12 09:11
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ThistleWebfar too many peeps have the career goal of "I wanna be famous"Jun 12 09:12
ThistleWebnot "I wanna be a great muso or actor"Jun 12 09:12
_Goblinwhat is a collection of Crowes called?Jun 12 09:12
splosionnot really a career though is it. It's an abstracted layerJun 12 09:12
splosion_Goblin: a cackle?Jun 12 09:13
_GoblinA: A murder.Jun 12 09:13
splosionwow. awesomeJun 12 09:13
_GoblinWhat about monkeys?Jun 12 09:13
ThistleWebthey tend to forget that the cream of the crop are famous BECAUSE they are very good at what they do, and work damn hard at improving themselvesJun 12 09:13
_GoblinA confusion.Jun 12 09:13
splosionThistleWeb: Paris HiltonJun 12 09:13
_GoblinlolJun 12 09:13
_Goblinshe's apparently out and about with Ronaldo.Jun 12 09:14
ThistleWebyep, they forget that an heiress born to money wont ever be in their careersJun 12 09:14
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splosionah wellJun 12 09:14
ThistleWebthey want the lifestyle without the work or talentJun 12 09:14
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splosionwe all wish it was so easy. If you want to be good at anything you have to grindJun 12 09:15
_Goblinand often a grind results in no success...Jun 12 09:16
ThistleWebthat's why I love the early rounds of shows like Pop Idol, where it's a wave of butt ugly, tone deaf, nobodies who will be lucky to get "employee of the month" once in their BK career insist that they are the next Beyonce or Prince and that the judges are wrongJun 12 09:16
ThistleWebit's entertaining for all the wrong reasonsJun 12 09:16
_GoblintrueJun 12 09:16
splosionyou might like this blog, ThistleWeb http://ifyoulikeitsomuchwhydontyougolivethere.comJun 12 09:17
ThistleWebthey wanna make fools of themselves, that's coolJun 12 09:17
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_Goblinthats why I like BBJun 12 09:18
splosionreminds me of the old "I'll do anything to get on TV!" segment they used to have on The WordJun 12 09:18
_Goblinthose people really believe people watch it for any other reasons than to see them show themselves up.Jun 12 09:18
_GoblinIve been on TV.....was interviewed at Nottinghill Carnival by BEN TV.Jun 12 09:19
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ThistleWebsplosion: I think that may have been an early taste of things to comeJun 12 09:19
splosionI love Speak You're Branes. The comments make the site what it is. "they might even suggest that as a supposedly civilised society, it behoves us to extend caring and support for fellow humans who are suffering from all over the world. You couldn’t make it up!"Jun 12 09:20
ThistleWebthe first series of BB was cool because the contestants had no real idea the impact it would have, so they were more like a social experiment it was billed as to begin withJun 12 09:20
_GoblinNasty Nick!Jun 12 09:20
_Goblinwas that the first one?Jun 12 09:21
splosionhahahaJun 12 09:21
splosionyesJun 12 09:21
splosionAnd the only one I watchedJun 12 09:21
splosionI was young...Jun 12 09:21
ThistleWebafter that, every other one has gotten increasingly desparate peopleJun 12 09:21
ThistleWebhe was late I thinkJun 12 09:21
ThistleWeblaterJun 12 09:21
ThistleWebmaybe 2 or 3Jun 12 09:21
ThistleWebI stopped watching them maybe 2 or 3 series backJun 12 09:22
ThistleWebthe last 2 or 3 I did watch, it was more on and offJun 12 09:22
splosionNah definitely the first oneJun 12 09:22
_GoblinBallmer, RMS,Gates,Paris Hilton, Steven Fry, The Cheeky Girls and Charlie (from the last BB show) - That would be a lineup to watch for the next series.Jun 12 09:22
ThistleWebain;t seen any of either last years or this yearsJun 12 09:22
ThistleWebRMS would be out in a flashJun 12 09:23
splosion_Goblin: I had a daydream the other day about being trapped on a desert island with Ballmer and rms. Ugh. Can you imagine?Jun 12 09:23
ThistleWebhe;s far too strict on his conditions for dealing with anyoneJun 12 09:23
_Goblinoh God..Jun 12 09:23
ThistleWebhe never backs down on a point to keep the peaceJun 12 09:23
splosion"Pass me the wine, Rich. "    "That's GNU/Richard to you."Jun 12 09:24
ThistleWebno idea who Charlie is, but at least the rest have some concept of "present a front" to deal with peopleJun 12 09:24
splosionHell I'd watch itJun 12 09:24
ThistleWebsmoozingJun 12 09:24
ThistleWebshmoozing*Jun 12 09:24
ThistleWebI reckon Gates and Jobs would probably be very charmingJun 12 09:24
ThistleWebspecially JobsJun 12 09:24
_GoblinOne of Ballmers tasks could have him dressed as Tux promoting Linux...Jun 12 09:24
ThistleWebeven Ballmer to some degreeJun 12 09:25
ThistleWebbut RMS?Jun 12 09:25
ThistleWebI can't see itJun 12 09:25
ThistleWebI eally can'tJun 12 09:25
ThistleWebnow add Linus into the mix and we could have a winnerJun 12 09:25
ThistleWebcharming, down to earth, unpretentiousJun 12 09:26
_GoblinI think RMS would be badly recieved by the general public because of his personal presentation...however out of all of them I would love to have a conversation and drink with RMS..Jun 12 09:26
ThistleWebdoes Snoopy use Linux?Jun 12 09:26
ThistleWebfor some reason Linus made me wonder thatJun 12 09:26
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_Goblinchanging subject slightly.....Jun 12 09:27
splosionHe uses a typewriter. I don't know if gcc has been ported to that particular make of typewriter, though.Jun 12 09:27
_GoblinI saw a casefile on a civil BT matter....Jun 12 09:27
_Goblinwhy is there such a big issue with defending a claim of breach of IP in civil court?Jun 12 09:28
_Goblinit seems to me (if the defend attends) that the case is a non-starter.Jun 12 09:28
splosionhrmm? Can you explain a bit?Jun 12 09:29
ThistleWebit's one thing to stick to your principles, it's another to continue an argument to win your point knowing it's gonna get worse, when you could back down to create calmJun 12 09:29
_GoblinWell firstly you have (in the UK) the case having to be proved "Balance of probabilities"Jun 12 09:29
_Goblinsince a civil act will be unlikely to have any form of court order/warrant attached to it...Jun 12 09:30
_Goblinall the evidence would be textual.Jun 12 09:30
_GoblinThe claim of "someone was using my Open WIFI" or "I had a party and loads of people used my computer"Jun 12 09:30
splosionoh. Bittorrent. I thought you meant British TelecomJun 12 09:31
_Goblinwould mean (to me anyway) there is little chance of success.  If you take a similar example... Ie. Speed cameras, even they need photographic evidence to prove who was driving at the time of the offence.Jun 12 09:31
ThistleWebyou're the accunt holder for the BT line / broadband account, it's your responsibilityJun 12 09:31
_Goblinsince if you can't prove who was actually using the car at the time, you have no case..Jun 12 09:31
ThistleWebif you let others use it, you're responsible for what they doJun 12 09:32
ThistleWebit's like a rowdy partyJun 12 09:32
_GoblinThistleweb: Not really, theres no legislation for that.....(in UK)Jun 12 09:32
ThistleWebthe home owner / tennant is legally held responsible for the actions of their guestsJun 12 09:32
_GoblinWhat country are you refering to?Jun 12 09:33
ThistleWebUKJun 12 09:33
_Goblinno.  I'll give a recent example...Jun 12 09:33
ThistleWebthey "can" be held legally responsibleJun 12 09:33
ThistleWebdepending on the actJun 12 09:33
splosionA while back I read a report from some University in America where they rigged some systems up for fake downloading. They got RIAA letters for a range of IP addresses. None of them had downloaded anything. Some of them were the IP addresses of printers.Jun 12 09:33
_Goblinonly if it proved that neglegence aided a criminal act.Jun 12 09:33
_Goblinand since BT cases are civil...theres no provision.Jun 12 09:33
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ThistleWebthere;s a lot of flexability in enforcing that law, but it's an option for the copsJun 12 09:34
splosionhrmmm, interesting. I hadn't considered that befpreJun 12 09:34
_Goblinalthough there is provision for distribution of copyrighted property in criminal law...Jun 12 09:34
splosionthere is?Jun 12 09:34
_Goblinbut companies wont go for that since the burden of proof is higherJun 12 09:34
ThistleWebif you knew your wifi was open, and knew others were piggybacking it, and did nothingJun 12 09:34
ThistleWebit's assumed consentJun 12 09:35
_Goblinno offence to have Open WIFI...infact there are people who willingly share their broadband...Jun 12 09:35
ThistleWebif you knew they were commiting infringements and didn't try to stop them, you're an accompliceJun 12 09:35
_Goblinyes, but how would the average user know that their wifi was being used as such and more importantly how would that be proved?Jun 12 09:36
splosionhrrrrmJun 12 09:36
_Goblinthe CPS would not (IMHO) even consider a case.Jun 12 09:36
ThistleWebof course it's not an offence, but people who do it still run the risk that everything that happens on their account, they are legally responsible forJun 12 09:36
_Goblinthe difference with PirateBay etc is that money was involved....Jun 12 09:36
ThistleWebso lets change the offense, but same methodJun 12 09:37
_Goblintheres tax issues etc that make a criminal prosecution more robust than a civil one...Jun 12 09:37
ThistleWebyour open wifi is being used to download child pornJun 12 09:37
_Goblingood example...Jun 12 09:37
ThistleWebit's triggered on YOUR accountJun 12 09:37
_Goblinconstructive posession has to be proved...for example....Jun 12 09:37
ThistleWebinvestigators track it to your nameJun 12 09:37
_Goblina male downloads CP onto a family computer.  The whole family does not get charged, only the person who it is deemed had possession.Jun 12 09:38
*MinceR_ is now known as MinceRJun 12 09:38
splosionYears ago I got sent some nasty stuff via email. I called the police about it. Stupidest thing I ever did do.Jun 12 09:38
ThistleWebI'd imagine the severity of the crime is a large factor in whether the CPS does anythingJun 12 09:38
_Goblinyep, its all "is this in the public interest?"Jun 12 09:39
ThistleWebcopyright stuff is often done by users who dont have the big money to pay finesJun 12 09:39
_GoblintrueJun 12 09:39
ThistleWebthey only want to go to the effort and expense if there is profit in itJun 12 09:39
_Goblinand I think thats why we now see more of a case of "adult material" being pursued through the civil courts.Jun 12 09:39
ThistleWebif it's a market stall selling copies, thats another level of offendingJun 12 09:39
_Goblinthe cases will rely on shame of the alleged guilty party to pay the fine before it gets to court.Jun 12 09:40
ThistleWeband it will workJun 12 09:40
ThistleWebon some anywayJun 12 09:40
ThistleWebI wouldn't rely on having an open wifi as a defense thoughJun 12 09:40
splosionIn other news. This guy is an idiot http://www.daniweb.com/blogs/entry4436.html#Jun 12 09:41
splosion"And I know you want that too, don't you? You see, many who use, or would use, your product want a trouble-free experience and if we have to spend many frustrating hours downloading, installing and troubleshooting browser plugin problems just so we can see someone's Flash presentation--well, it just isn't worth it."Jun 12 09:41
_GoblinIf you consider that its up to them to prove that you actually downloaded the material....Jun 12 09:41
ThistleWebthere are plenty of other ways of cutting it downJun 12 09:41
_Goblinimagine this case:Jun 12 09:41
ThistleWebISP logsJun 12 09:41
_Goblinyou want to download Friday the 13th Part 44 - you get your wife to click on the torrent links, yet its for you.  Whose guilty when it is you standing in a civil court?Jun 12 09:42
ThistleWebshe isJun 12 09:42
ThistleWebeven if it's on your behalf, she should refuseJun 12 09:43
_Goblinthats another case though, and you are under no obligation to assist the other party in the presentation of their case.Jun 12 09:43
splosionThere is a very good document on wikileaks that explains why no government will ever stop child porn being distributed online, btw. It gets pretty blackhat-technical in places.Jun 12 09:43
ThistleWebif she does it, she's guiltyJun 12 09:43
_Goblinso continuing it on, your wife stands in the box.Jun 12 09:43
_Goblinon a second case.Jun 12 09:43
_GoblinShe states that it was you who told her to do it and she had no idea what she was doing.Jun 12 09:43
splosionget a divorceJun 12 09:44
_Goblinremember we are not talking about criminal law here.Jun 12 09:44
ThistleWebis she really that stupid that she does stuff not knowing what it is just because her hubby tells her to?Jun 12 09:44
_Goblinimagine:Jun 12 09:44
ThistleWebignorance is no excuse in lawJun 12 09:44
ThistleWebshe's still guiltyJun 12 09:44
splosionY'know, I'm going to put this question to alawyer friend I have. I'll tell you what he thinks about it next week!Jun 12 09:44
_GoblinForget that we are talking civil and not criminal....Jun 12 09:45
_Goblinmost law is in regards to intent.....Jun 12 09:45
ThistleWebI have no legal background at all, so that distinction means nothing to me, but go onJun 12 09:45
splosionactus rea, mens reaJun 12 09:45
_Goblin"To dishonestly appropriate property belonging to the other with the INTENTION of permanently depriving the other of it" - Sec(1) Theft Act for example.Jun 12 09:45
_Goblinif I pick up your IPod thinking its mine.....no crime.Jun 12 09:46
ThistleWebas long as you genuinely did think that, then yesJun 12 09:46
ThistleWeblike finding extra money in your account at the ATMJun 12 09:47
_Goblinyep good example.Jun 12 09:47
_Goblinall about intent.Jun 12 09:47
ThistleWebif you know it's not yours, that it;s a mistake, drawing on it is theftJun 12 09:47
ThistleWebif you genuinely belive it's yours and draw on it,its notJun 12 09:47
splosionhttp://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mens_rea    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Actus_reusJun 12 09:47
ThistleWebthat can easily be proved with accounts in courtJun 12 09:47
_GoblinTheft by finding is another offence...where is covers the second part of the theft act....Jun 12 09:47
_Goblinif you dont make efforts to locate/return property then the "permanently deprived" part of the offence is committed.Jun 12 09:48
_Goblineven thought the appropriation was not dishonest.Jun 12 09:48
ThistleWebanyone else think ATM or Ass To Mouth is a good metaphor for societyJun 12 09:49
*kentma has quit ("Leaving.")Jun 12 09:49
_Goblinand I think this highlights why companies are more keen to persue civil remedies.Jun 12 09:49
ThistleWebyepJun 12 09:49
MinceRsociety is more complicated than that :>Jun 12 09:49
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MinceRbut it's an element of societyJun 12 09:49
_GoblinATM - Lol. I had honestly never heard that before....I know what you mean...Jun 12 09:49
splosionwell yeah, as far as copyright infringement goes, the best come-back for those who say it's theft is to point them towards all of those millions of people in prison for it.Jun 12 09:50
MinceRi thought the above mentioned definition would be a better comebackJun 12 09:51
MinceRas obviously the other isn't deprived of their property, not even temporarilyJun 12 09:51
_Goblinyeah...but...Jun 12 09:52
splosionsure, but the people I've spoken to hand-wave that rgument. "You still haven't paid for it!!"Jun 12 09:52
ThistleWebit's slightly more mature than flipping them off, laughing at them "sucker"Jun 12 09:52
_Goblinthere is provision within the theft act (Id have to look up the section) for IPJun 12 09:52
_Goblinbecause the deprivation comes in respect of the lost sale.Jun 12 09:53
splosionBut how can you prove that there would have been a sale without it?Jun 12 09:53
MinceRthat's really bending over backwardsJun 12 09:53
splosionYou certainly can't put it beyond all reasonable doubtJun 12 09:53
ThistleWebsplosion: Jedi Mind TrickJun 12 09:53
_Goblinbecause if theres a download theres a demand (I presume)Jun 12 09:54
_Goblinand why the fines are large but dont represent a global representation of lost salesJun 12 09:54
ThistleWeba lot of peeps wouldn't download it if they had to pay for itJun 12 09:54
_Goblinkeep in mind, forgetting the PB the only results at court have come from no shows.Jun 12 09:54
ThistleWebbecause they don't, they take it anywayJun 12 09:55
_Goblinand I think that the courts when imposing fines would keep that in mind.Jun 12 09:55
MinceRThistleWeb: Chewbacca Defense!Jun 12 09:55
_Goblinotherwise they would simply charge the RRP for every detected download.Jun 12 09:55
ThistleWebthe rights holders have an emotional stake in their creations, and an over inflated value that it hasJun 12 09:55
_GoblinThe PB case does throw an interesting idea out there....Jun 12 09:56
_Goblinshould every search engine and site linking to PB torrent file be held in the same guilt?Jun 12 09:56
splosionMens reus, againJun 12 09:57
ThistleWebPB (is that peanut butter?) is a search engine built for copyright contentJun 12 09:57
splosionreus/reaJun 12 09:57
MinceRthe TPB case has never got a chance at a fair trialJun 12 09:57
ThistleWebsearch engines like Google are general purposeJun 12 09:57
_GoblinPB are a little different though...Jun 12 09:57
_GoblinI think the important factor there was the allegation that money was being made.Jun 12 09:58
MinceRsweden's courts have only made a parody of a fair trialJun 12 09:58
_GoblinI havent seen what was presented to the courts as evidence in respect of that.Jun 12 09:58
splosionIf you don’t want someone else to be able to make copies of your work then don’t give it to them.Jun 12 09:58
_Goblininteresting and great idea....IMHO it will never be workable.Jun 12 09:59
ThistleWebthe fact that they have a LOT of traffic / bandwidth / servers and advertising would suggest that advertsing revenue pays to cober costsJun 12 09:59
ThistleWebcover*Jun 12 09:59
_GoblinCan you imagine GTA being funded by advertising?Jun 12 09:59
_GoblinIt would still be "pirated" IMOJun 12 09:59
splosiontime for me to go to the shop! tahJun 12 10:00
ThistleWebyep with built in ABPJun 12 10:00
_Goblinlook, for example at some of the bands that have offered their music on their sites for free.Jun 12 10:00
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*splosion is now known as shopsionJun 12 10:00
_Goblinthey still end up on torrent....Jun 12 10:00
_Goblinand I think the big issue with alot of people are adverts....to me that would give even more of an excuse to breach copyright.Jun 12 10:00
shopsion_Goblin: sure. People have a desire to share culture. Culture isn't culture unless it's sharedJun 12 10:00
shopsionand on that note, t'raJun 12 10:00
_Goblinsee ya!Jun 12 10:01
_GoblinNice talking!Jun 12 10:01
MinceRthere's also the issue of paying a tax on media supposedly to cover unauthorized copyingJun 12 10:01
MinceRi've paid for it, so i should be allowed to do it.Jun 12 10:01
_Goblinare you US?Jun 12 10:01
MinceRno, HUJun 12 10:01
ThistleWebI do find it bizarre that companies still want to put advertising on versions you pay forJun 12 10:02
_Goblintrue, and also the DVD's I buy from Blockbuster still have the antipiracy message...Jun 12 10:02
ThistleWebMicrosoft had planned a cheaper version of Office (or maybe Works) with built in advertising to pay for itJun 12 10:02
_Goblinisnt that preaching to the choir?Jun 12 10:02
ThistleWebto me, it's either / orJun 12 10:02
ThistleWebyou get it free, you put up with advertsJun 12 10:03
ThistleWebyou buy it, you deserve not to have to put up with advertsJun 12 10:03
_Goblinyeah...Jun 12 10:03
ThistleWebone way, the comapny MAY get money from you, the other they DO get money from youJun 12 10:03
ThistleWebalthough, subscription TV channels have a dual modelJun 12 10:04
ThistleWebyou pay a fee, and still get advertsJun 12 10:04
_Goblinalthough one could argue that the people paying not to have adverts are the ones that are more likely to have the money to buy the brands advertised....Jun 12 10:04
ThistleWebof course, that's often reasonably premium content, so without adverts the subscription fee would be a lot higherJun 12 10:04
ThistleWebindeedJun 12 10:05
_Goblinand the ones who get it for free do so because they dont have the money....If you were selling a PS3 who would you rather reach.Jun 12 10:05
ThistleWebmy first criteria would be "a gamer"Jun 12 10:05
_Goblinwith cash on the hipJun 12 10:05
_Goblin:)Jun 12 10:05
ThistleWebthe ideal customer for the entertainment industry is "someone who has never heard of bit torrent or p2p"Jun 12 10:06
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ThistleWebthey only have themselves to blame for their situationJun 12 10:07
_Goblinproblems of things going mainstream?Jun 12 10:08
_Goblindays of 0daywarez ftp and "elite" access are gone...Jun 12 10:08
MinceRor are they? :>Jun 12 10:08
ThistleWebyepJun 12 10:08
_Goblinyeah, i know what you mean, however the BT has highlighted it all....Jun 12 10:09
ThistleWeba lot of that is mainstream affordable broadbandJun 12 10:09
_Goblinwasn't Fairlight busted recently?Jun 12 10:09
MinceRi think it just turns attention away from ftpJun 12 10:09
ThistleWeband more being done on computersJun 12 10:09
_Goblinwe never saw the same outcry with IRC...Jun 12 10:09
_GoblinPacketnews still seems to be going strong....Jun 12 10:09
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_GoblinI think the difference is, in UK law there is no provision for a download without sharing I.e FTP/IRC/Newsgroups...Jun 12 10:10
_Goblinthere still could be a civil case against a downloader....but what court case would be worth the cost of a single file which may or may not be proved.Jun 12 10:10
MinceRalso, "elite" access is still private, isn't it? -- so that isn't what they're worried aboutJun 12 10:10
MinceR(in fact, someone told me that private copying is still legal here)Jun 12 10:11
ThistleWebeverything is legal until you're caughtJun 12 10:11
ThistleWebthen you do the MP thangJun 12 10:11
ThistleWebwhoopsieJun 12 10:11
MinceR:DJun 12 10:11
ThistleWebelite groups tend to be member only tooJun 12 10:12
ThistleWebto keep out potential RIAA / MPAA typesJun 12 10:13
_Goblingood example...the worlds worst kept secret "elite" - Waffles.fmJun 12 10:13
_Goblinalthough I have doubts at how "elite" they are.Jun 12 10:13
ThistleWebdey have haxx0r IDs, so dey is l33tJun 12 10:14
_Goblinin my day, we would have called these type of people "spreaders"Jun 12 10:14
_Goblin"those who can code, those who cant, spread"Jun 12 10:14
ThistleWebto me "spreader" sounds like another name for a whoreJun 12 10:14
_GoblinlolJun 12 10:14
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ThistleWebor a butter knifeJun 12 10:14
MinceRlolJun 12 10:14
_Goblinthat was in the days of jiffy bag trading though....Jun 12 10:14
_Goblinand BBS'sJun 12 10:15
_Goblinhappy times.Jun 12 10:15
ThistleWebnever traded jiffy bagsJun 12 10:15
ThistleWebto me all jiffy bags look alikeJun 12 10:15
ThistleWebmaybe I'm baggistJun 12 10:15
_Goblinno? theres great plastic bubbles inside some.... ;)Jun 12 10:16
_Goblinall padded and lovely.Jun 12 10:16
_Goblinmaybe we should start up a jiffy bag ScEnEJun 12 10:16
ThistleWebmethinks "do it in a jiffy" is a trademarked slogan thoughJun 12 10:17
ThistleWebI suppose "back in a jiffy" has a retro feel to itJun 12 10:17
_Goblinthats going back a bit....Jun 12 10:17
ThistleWebthough "back in a jiffy" could be a cannibal scene, with other body parts available on requestJun 12 10:18
_Goblinthistleweb: are you UK?Jun 12 10:18
ThistleWebyepJun 12 10:18
_Goblinheres a question for you (and a prize in it if you get it right)Jun 12 10:18
ThistleWebcondomsJun 12 10:19
ThistleWebsorry, ask awatJun 12 10:19
ThistleWebaway*Jun 12 10:19
_GoblinWhere did the term "cold enough to freeze the balls of a brass monkey" come from.Jun 12 10:19
ThistleWebno ideaJun 12 10:19
ThistleWebnot to be confused with a no-eye'd-deerJun 12 10:20
_GoblinBrass Monkey = Name of the item that stored canon balls on an old battleship.  It was brass so in the cold expanded and the cannon balls fell off....hence the term...Jun 12 10:20
_Goblinuseless fact for the day.Jun 12 10:20
ThistleWebplenty of them to go aroundJun 12 10:21
_Goblinand what that has to do with Jiffy bags and the "scene" ill never know.Jun 12 10:21
ThistleWebhelps build arm muscles when tradingJun 12 10:21
_Goblin:)Jun 12 10:21
_GoblinIm off fishing this afternoon.Jun 12 10:22
_Goblinabout 3 miles off bournemouth coastJun 12 10:22
ThistleWebnever saw the appeal of fishingJun 12 10:23
_GoblinIll be twitpic'ing my catches...if anyone is interested...Jun 12 10:23
ThistleWebspecially for the fishJun 12 10:23
_Goblinthe fish have nothing to fear....Jun 12 10:23
_GoblinI dont think ive ever caught anythingJun 12 10:23
ThistleWeblolJun 12 10:23
_Goblingot pulled by the navy once....Jun 12 10:23
_Goblinfor taking photosJun 12 10:23
ThistleWebpesky seamenJun 12 10:24
_Goblinits an excuse to get drink and play pirates with other husbands who mispent their youth in front of a computer screen.Jun 12 10:24
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_Goblin*drunkJun 12 10:24
_Goblinand thats nautical pirates not copyright ones..Jun 12 10:25
ThistleWebI bet the "ello sailor" in your best Larry Grayson impression went down well huh?Jun 12 10:25
_Hicham_Hi _GoblinJun 12 10:25
_GoblinlolJun 12 10:25
_GoblinhiJun 12 10:25
_Hicham_howdy oiaohm?Jun 12 10:25
_GoblinI have a Johnny Depp pirate hat and a plastic cutlass.Jun 12 10:25
ThistleWebalthough seamen going down well does have other meaningsJun 12 10:25
_Goblinyou will probably see us on the local news.....Jun 12 10:26
ThistleWebyeah as an "unfortunate target of a missile"Jun 12 10:26
_Goblinor sunk by the Royal NavyJun 12 10:26
_Goblinbtw.....did you know its still an offense to fly the jolly roger flag on Britains seas or waterways...Jun 12 10:26
ThistleWebwouldnt surprise meJun 12 10:27
_GoblinI'll let you know later if thats still the case.Jun 12 10:27
ThistleWebplenty of laws never repealedJun 12 10:27
_GoblinWe got one to fly.....Jun 12 10:27
_Goblinso if I dont come back later, you can take it that it still is an offense....Jun 12 10:27
ThistleWebin most cases there are laws which trump them or cover the bases, which is easier than repealing an existing lawJun 12 10:27
_Goblintrue...It will be interesting to find out...Jun 12 10:28
_GoblinOur "Jolly boys outings" usually end up in tears....Jun 12 10:29
ThistleWebhttp://rss.slashdot.org/~r/Slashdot/slashdot/~3/nmpdH13qcCg/BT-Wants-Cash-For-iPlayer-Video-BandwidthJun 12 10:29
*shopsion is now known as splosionJun 12 10:33
splosionget_iplayer. the bestest linux app I've used in a whileJun 12 10:34
_Goblinthistleweb: Yeah I saw that....I was going to run a article...Jun 12 10:34
_Goblinsposion: BBC Iplayer?Jun 12 10:34
splosionNo it's a terminal app to download the non-DRM'd versions of the videos at iPlayerJun 12 10:34
_Goblinah...Jun 12 10:34
_Goblindoh.Jun 12 10:34
splosionhttp://linuxcentre.net/getiplayer/Jun 12 10:35
ThistleWebI have major issues with the licence fee modelJun 12 10:35
splosionIt's a great app for me because I have a slow connection and can't stand the fact that the iPlayer doesn't buffer stuffJun 12 10:35
_GoblinSince I prefer to buy the original CD/dvd's these ipods et al have no appeal to me.Jun 12 10:36
_Goblinalthough the wife has an ipod, I dont think Ive ever owned an mp3 player of any kind...Jun 12 10:36
_Goblinand thats killed the conversation....sorryJun 12 10:38
splosionWould you buy a device that could store every single song ever recorded?Jun 12 10:38
splosionSuch devices will be possible in a few years. Can't waitJun 12 10:38
_Goblinno, simply because my taste in music is quite selective....Jun 12 10:38
ThistleWebSimon Cowell? He needs a library of tunes for his dancing monkeys to coverJun 12 10:39
splosionThat's a bit short-sighted, surely? Having access to any song whenever you want?Jun 12 10:39
splosionis that not desirable?Jun 12 10:39
_Goblinand my room dedicated to records/cd/tape would look a little bare with a soppy box in the middle of the room.Jun 12 10:39
splosionhahaJun 12 10:39
ThistleWebtheres also a TV player that acts like a TV without a tuner cardJun 12 10:40
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ThistleWebcomplete with program guideJun 12 10:40
ThistleWebtryin to think of the nameJun 12 10:40
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ender2070i just submitted a brainstorm idea that will make people thinkJun 12 10:40
ender2070http://brainstorm.ubuntu.com/idea/20234/Jun 12 10:41
splosionender2070: countdown to it being closed in 10, 9, 8...Jun 12 10:41
oiaohmHi _Hicham_ I was afk.Jun 12 10:42
splosionoh. it already has been closedJun 12 10:42
_Goblinender: Note of sarcasm in that idea? ;)Jun 12 10:42
splosionoh no wait. Awaiting moderationJun 12 10:42
ender2070my sense of humorJun 12 10:42
_Goblingood idea though...Jun 12 10:42
ender2070yeah, its been awaiting moderation for 12 hoursJun 12 10:43
ender2070they are probably trying to figure out if its seriousJun 12 10:43
splosionHey man. Backslashes should be used for escape characters. Backslashes are the Windows way of doing things. For shame!Jun 12 10:43
ender2070lolJun 12 10:44
splosionanyhooJun 12 10:44
splosionLet's all check our RAM usage.Jun 12 10:44
splosionps aux | awk '{ x += $6 } END { print "Total ram in use: " (x+1023)/1024 "mb." }'Jun 12 10:44
splosionTotal ram in use: 658.706mb.Jun 12 10:45
_Goblin615.68mbJun 12 10:45
ThistleWebdamn, I can't think of the nameJun 12 10:45
splosionThistleWeb: miro?Jun 12 10:46
ender2070what are you running, java?Jun 12 10:46
ThistleWebnah, nor democracy which is miroJun 12 10:46
ThistleWebit feels like WMP but for streaming live TV through your broadband, no ariel / tv card requiredJun 12 10:47
splosionender2070: Thunderbird and Swiftfox add 345.277mb to my stats. :(Jun 12 10:48
ender2070ahhhJun 12 10:49
ender2070im using about 255mbJun 12 10:49
oiaohmhttp://brainstorm.ubuntu.com/idea/110/  << ender2070 don't miss voting on this one.Jun 12 10:49
ender2070just gnome and xchat thoJun 12 10:49
oiaohmbrainstorm and ubuntu search is crap.Jun 12 10:49
ender2070im running fedora 11Jun 12 10:51
oiaohmModerators at ubuntu also need a major kicking.Jun 12 10:51
_GoblinMandriva spring....although not at the moment....Jun 12 10:51
oiaohmLot of open mono out threads should have been closed as duplicates of 110Jun 12 10:51
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_GoblinI would hope Canonical looks toward Novell for an example of what a pact with the devil does....I honestly believe had the deal not been signed, opensuse would be where Ubuntu is now...Jun 12 10:52
_Goblineven Redhat wanted to distance themselves from a MS partnership...didnt they say "theres nothing Novellish about our deal"??Jun 12 10:53
splosionMaybe not, _Goblin. Suse were never stranger to proprietary stuff.Jun 12 10:53
_Goblintrue...Jun 12 10:53
*primoz is now known as primoz_awayJun 12 10:54
_GoblinMy prediction: Mandriva will be the next fast upcoming distro....Jun 12 10:54
splosionI love Red Hat's militant opposition to a Novell-like deal http://www.redhat.com/promo/believe/ An innovation tax is unthinkable. Free and open source software provide the necessary environment for true innovation. Innovation without fear or threat. Activities that isolate communities or limit upstream adoption will inevitably stifle innovation..Jun 12 10:54
ender2070and novell is owned by the same group that owns scoJun 12 10:54
splosionQuotes around that last bitJun 12 10:54
splosionShuttleworth was pissed off with Novell too, around the time. He's not as miffed about it now, though.Jun 12 10:56
_GoblinAndre Da Co$ta is having a job interview today......Jun 12 10:57
_GoblinI wonder who/what for?Jun 12 10:57
trmancohttp://www.mozilla.org/security/known-vulnerabilities/firefox30.html#firefox3.0.11Jun 12 10:58
splosion_Goblin: who is that?Jun 12 10:59
_Goblinmy nemesis, one of the "elite" MS faithful.Jun 12 10:59
_GoblinI exposed his failed disclosure about recieving free gifts from MS (allegedly)Jun 12 11:00
_Goblinthe silly boy had forgotten he had posted pictures of himself with the aforementioned laptop on the net..Jun 12 11:01
splosiondohJun 12 11:01
splosionCan I get a link to your blag? I'll put it in my readerJun 12 11:01
_Goblinhe posts textbook Microsoft PR...I met him first on MS Watch and probably never would have started a site if it hadnt been for him...Jun 12 11:01
_Goblinwww.openbytes.wordpress.comJun 12 11:02
_Goblinalthough, to see the great man himself in action:  www.twitter.com/adacostaJun 12 11:02
splosionTah. Now Thunderbird will be just that little bit slower when updating my feeds. :)Jun 12 11:02
trmancosplosion, newsfox is betterJun 12 11:03
splosionoh?Jun 12 11:03
_GoblinIve been requesting for a while for people to join and write articles.......offers open to all...Jun 12 11:03
splosionYou won't find me. Investigative stuff ain't my thingJun 12 11:03
splosionI'll try out Newsfox, trmancoJun 12 11:04
trmancohttp://www.securityfocus.com/archive/102/504245/30/0/threadedJun 12 11:04
trmancohttp://www.securityfocus.com/archive/103/504246/30/0/threadedJun 12 11:04
trmancoanybody see the slight difference?Jun 12 11:04
splosiontrmanco: sheeeeshJun 12 11:05
trmanco:-)Jun 12 11:06
splosionPeople say Linux is too hard for the masses. And some of those same people say that if you have the right know-how, you can secure a Windows PC. There is something wrong with this picture.Jun 12 11:07
splosionbrbJun 12 11:08
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ThistleWebart tickles huh? In my experience that only occurs when you use feathers as your baseJun 12 11:09
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ThistleWebI used Newsfox for a while before going back to ThunderbirdJun 12 11:10
ThistleWebchoice is funJun 12 11:10
splosion_I'm adding a bunch of blags to mine right now.Jun 12 11:10
ThistleWebI'd prefer Lifera if it could screen out the adverts on feedsJun 12 11:11
oiaohmhttp://www.comet.co.uk/shopcomet/product/507903/TOSHIBA-NB100-11R  << Here is a laugh.Jun 12 11:11
splosion_emacs probably has a major mode for rss feeds too.Jun 12 11:11
_GoblinThunderbird for me is my all in one solution....Jun 12 11:12
_Goblinshame there is no binaries grabberJun 12 11:12
splosion_"This item will be added to your order so your machine can protect itself against viruses, spyware and online threats. Norton 360 also allows you to backup files and tune up your computer optimising its performance." HahahahahaJun 12 11:12
ThistleWeboiaohm: yep the AV upsell stuff will be tagged to every PCJun 12 11:12
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oiaohmThere are such things as nortons for Linux. ThistleWebJun 12 11:14
ThistleWebI don't doubt itJun 12 11:14
ThistleWebsome peeps will buy the peace of mind, even if they dont need itJun 12 11:15
splosion_What category should blags by people I usually disagree with be put in? "The Enemy"? "Bastard Blags"?Jun 12 11:15
ThistleWebMicrosoft have them well conditionedJun 12 11:15
_Goblintalking of optimization...the solution to TOR may apparently be bitblinder....Jun 12 11:15
oiaohmSymantec AntiVirus for Linux opps its the other name.Jun 12 11:15
splosion_bitblinder looks pretty good, actuallyJun 12 11:15
_Goblinalthough having read the theory Im not convinced...Jun 12 11:16
splosion_It'll be lack of willing exit nodes, same as TorJun 12 11:16
oiaohmHave found it handy with clamav to disinfect windows machines.Jun 12 11:16
trmancopffJun 12 11:17
trmancohotmail's pop is downJun 12 11:17
splosion_oiaohm: I use my Linux box to delete viruses people get on their USB sticks. It makes me feel all powerful. I can delete you, but Windows Explorer can't, hahahaha!Jun 12 11:17
_GoblinDuring my "week of XP" Ive already had three infections.....Jun 12 11:18
oiaohmI network run 20 XP machines mostly the only reason they don't get infected is sitting behind a Linux firewall/network scanning box.Jun 12 11:19
ThistleWebas others have said, the best AV app is a Linux live CDJun 12 11:19
oiaohmYes linux box is exploiting windows machines means to have there harddrives remote scanned.Jun 12 11:20
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_GoblinRoy must be busy...Would have expected him here by now...Jun 12 11:21
trmancomicrosoft is playing dirty tricks againJun 12 11:21
oiaohmI would guess sleeping.Jun 12 11:21
oiaohmwith RoyJun 12 11:21
splosion_I've been meaning to see how pwnable XP pre-SP1 machines really are. Hook it to the network, but investigate what goes in and what goes out with a Linux box running some network monitoring app. See if it really takes four minutes to become part of a botnet.Jun 12 11:22
trmancothe server responded with unknown command....Jun 12 11:22
_Hicham_what tricks trmanco?Jun 12 11:22
trmanco_Hicham_, <trmanco> pffJun 12 11:22
trmanco<trmanco> hotmail's pop is downJun 12 11:22
oiaohmMost XP machines become part of bot nets due to user stupidity.Jun 12 11:23
trmancoah, it works againJun 12 11:23
splosion_oiaohm: The pre-SP2 XPs apparently have vulnerabilities that require them only to be plugged into the internet to get pwned.Jun 12 11:23
_Hicham_trmanco : do u use hotmail?Jun 12 11:24
oiaohmRemember lot of cable and adsl routers are Linux boxs splosion_Jun 12 11:24
trmancoI need it for IMJun 12 11:24
_GoblinI think users get pwned as soon as they part with cash for Microsofts platform.Jun 12 11:24
oiaohmSo offsetting that risk.Jun 12 11:24
ThistleWebThe idea that Bill Gates has appeared like a knight in shining armour to lead all customers out of a mire of technological chaos neatly ignores the fact that it was he who, by peddling second-rate technology, led them into it in the first place.  - Douglas AdamsJun 12 11:24
oiaohmUser does nothing they don't open up the Linux NAT so no attacker access splosion_Jun 12 11:25
ThistleWeb"I really didn't foresee the Internet. But then, neither did the computer industry. Not that that tells us very much, of course - the computer industry didn't even foresee that the century was going to end." - Douglas AdamsJun 12 11:25
ThistleWebthere;s another quote I cant find comparing Windows, Unix and MacJun 12 11:26
splosion_ahJun 12 11:26
_Hicham_trmanco : do u have pop access?Jun 12 11:27
trmanco_Hicham_, yesJun 12 11:28
ThistleWeb"Unix is the answer, but only if you phrase the question very carefully. Unix is user-friendly. It's just very selective about who its friends are. Unix: It's not just 'User-Unfriendly', it's 'Proactively User-Hostile' !  " brilliantJun 12 11:29
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] Microsoft Pays Company Which Recommends Bing Over Google < http://ping.fm/RjIft >Jun 12 11:30
oiaohmUnix's put system secuirty ahead of userfrienlyness.Jun 12 11:39
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_GoblinRight people, Im off to sea.  (2-3 miles off Bournemouth coast)  I'll be back later and hopefully be able to let people know if flying the jolly roger flag is still an offense in Britains sea's.Jun 12 11:51
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-BNc/#boycottnovell-[davidgerard] #ubuntu #netbook - is a 3g usage monitor included? if not, what's an easy one to show cumulative bandwidth up&down that's in the repos?Jun 12 12:00
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splosion_http://www.guardian.co.uk/technology/2009/jun/10/berners-lee-downing-street-web-openJun 12 12:09
trmancothe power of blender -> http://terrier.infographie.free.fr/uploads/pics/tutport_images/autohd.jpgJun 12 12:11
trmancohttp://terrier.infographie.free.fr/index.php?id=396Jun 12 12:12
splosion_impressiveJun 12 12:12
splosion_video at that grauniad article btwJun 12 12:12
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] Novell and Microsoft Make It Clear: They Want to Replace GNU/Linux with Patent Royalties http://ping.fm/ndoerJun 12 12:20
oiaohmtrmanco: ok its only a skull but it shows one of the other great powers of blender>> http://cg.tutsplus.com/tutorials/game-art/sculpt-model-and-texture-a-low-poly-skull-in-blender/Jun 12 12:23
trmancoyeah, it nice :-)Jun 12 12:25
oiaohmThe multi poly support.Jun 12 12:26
oiaohmMake a high res and a low res model as 1 then use texture to make the low look equal.Jun 12 12:26
oiaohmSuch a nice method.Jun 12 12:27
Ngman I wish I had modelling skillsJun 12 12:29
splosion_get yourself some breast implantsJun 12 12:30
oiaohmmodelling skills are a learnt art NgJun 12 12:31
Ngsure, but I have zero artistic ability and very little spare time ;)Jun 12 12:31
NgI taught myself some animation stuff in Lightwave in the 90s, but I never quite made the jump from camera/keyframe stuff to modellingJun 12 12:32
oiaohmSo you are like me.Jun 12 12:32
oiaohmMy job is doing up product demos.Jun 12 12:33
Ngalso at that stage I was massively hampered by CPU power - it would take a couple of hours to render a single frame on my Amiga, and when you come back after a day and a half to find a single shot is ruined by a bad keyframe, you give up quickly ;)Jun 12 12:33
splosion_I had to go without the internet for six months once. Did me wonders. I made sure I downloaded all the Python documentation I could before I did. I came out on the other side like this: "Whoa, I know Python."Jun 12 12:33
splosion_The internet is the biggest distraction. Cut yerself off.Jun 12 12:33
oiaohmBlender is not getting too bad.  Most stuff I proof run threw in the game engine NgJun 12 12:34
Ng(I was downloading Babylon 5 objects from the internet and making little scenes with them. What was supposed to be my best attempt yet rendered for days and then I noticed in the final version that the nebula image in the background had an erroneous keyframe at the end, so through the whole scene this enormous galactic structure moved a centimetre or so across the background ;)Jun 12 12:34
oiaohmWhat can basically render realtime.Jun 12 12:34
oiaohmSo stuffed up keyframes don't cost much.Jun 12 12:35
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Ngyeah, these days CPUs make that kind of thing much easier to spot :)Jun 12 12:35
oiaohmEven simpler next blender.Jun 12 12:35
Ngif it had been an object I'd have noticed it from wireframe renders, it was only because it was a massive flat texture at the background ;)Jun 12 12:35
oiaohmThat you can be in edit mode and animated at the same time.Jun 12 12:35
NgniceJun 12 12:36
oiaohmTools are coming a long way.Jun 12 12:36
oiaohmReally look forward for blenders movie render being upgraded to take advantage of video cards.Jun 12 12:38
oiaohmShould really be able to bring HD video rendering down to a few secs a frame on a decent gammers machine.Jun 12 12:39
tessierAs usual, it's an awesome time to be a Linux user.Jun 12 12:39
oiaohmBlender is also looking at full muli-touch support as well.Jun 12 12:40
MinceRsplosion_: why don't you use free to check ram usage? :>Jun 12 12:40
oiaohmI really should have this machine rendering something.Jun 12 12:40
oiaohmI am sitting on 2 gb free.Jun 12 12:40
tessierThat must be uncomfortable.Jun 12 12:41
oiaohm4 gb of ram.Jun 12 12:42
oiaohmLinux seams to level out at 2 gb of ram used.Jun 12 12:42
oiaohmThat is including drive caching.Jun 12 12:43
splosion_MinceR: what!? and forgo the chance to use awk for no reason whatever!?Jun 12 12:47
MinceRlolJun 12 12:47
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splosion_free | grep swap | awk '{ x = $3 } END { print "Swap usage: " x/1024 "mb" } 'Jun 12 12:50
splosion_thereJun 12 12:50
splosion_swap/SwapJun 12 12:51
_Hicham_splosion_ : how much ram do u havve?Jun 12 12:52
_Mutex_and 1k is 1023Jun 12 12:52
schestowitzYesterday I had my first reboot since FebruaryJun 12 12:52
schestowitzI didn't even remember which kernel to choose in the bootloader :-DJun 12 12:52
splosion_sorry :(Jun 12 12:53
splosion_free | grep Mem | awk '{ x = $2 } END { print "Total RAM: " (x+1023)/1024 "mb" } 'Jun 12 12:53
splosion_is that better?Jun 12 12:53
splosion_one gigJun 12 12:53
_Mutex_works for me :) and you're right 1Gig,Jun 12 12:54
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-BNc/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] We have just exposed Tesco, which falsely recommends Vista and admits it http://ping.fm/Mr9rjJun 12 12:55
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satiperaHas there been any feedback from the dos attack I have missed?Jun 12 13:18
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atiperaHas there been any feedback from the dos attack I have missed?Jun 12 13:20
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schestowitzsatipera: what do you mean?Jun 12 13:22
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-BNc/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] Real-time Linux Hacker Bill Huey Called the Mono Plan “Misguided” < http://ping.fm/bd69W >Jun 12 13:25
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splosion_http://www.cs.washington.edu/research/textrunner/ Have you seen this?Jun 12 13:50
splosion_./ reports try searching for "Who has Microsoft acquired?"Jun 12 13:51
splosion_"Retrieved 560 results for Who has Microsoft acquired?"Jun 12 13:51
splosion_hah. Search for "Who paid SCO?"Jun 12 13:54
_Mutex_the thousands of people who used SCO unix, it was at one time a very very popular Unix.Jun 12 13:56
_Mutex_If you want to know who MS has acquired, a good place to start is the Microsofort FELLOWS, many of the so called people that MS "overtook" are now happily working for MS,  Also also common, that if you DONT want to sell your business to another company you say NO. It happens all the time. If they dont want to join MS they done have too.Jun 12 13:59
MinceRit isn't that simple, see yahooJun 12 14:00
_Mutex_Or "what business has MS performed a hostile takeover off.Jun 12 14:00
_Mutex_Yahoo ,, hmm they said no right :)Jun 12 14:00
MinceRof course, if you want to retain control over your company, you should keep over 50% of the shares.Jun 12 14:00
MinceRor not go public.Jun 12 14:00
_Mutex_exactlyJun 12 14:00
splosion_Searches slowing down. The site is getting Slashdotted. Get your searches in quick.Jun 12 14:00
MinceRmost businesses are greedier than thatJun 12 14:00
_Mutex_and not sell it if you dont want too.Jun 12 14:00
MinceRand then they can fight tooth and nail against takeover like yahoo did.Jun 12 14:01
_Mutex_Greed or not, they have a right to say yes, or no. If they choose Yes, its clear they are not being forced to join.Jun 12 14:01
_Mutex_Unless its a hostile takeover. and i dont know of MS ever doing thatJun 12 14:02
MinceRyeah, rightJun 12 14:02
MinceRthey're such a nice companyJun 12 14:02
_Mutex_ok, name oneJun 12 14:02
MinceRthey tried to do that with yahooJun 12 14:03
_Mutex_and hyperglobalmeganet ofcourse.Jun 12 14:03
MinceRhttp://www.scroogle.org/cgi-bin/nbbw.cgi?Gw=microsoft+hostile+takeover&n=1Jun 12 14:03
_Mutex_They did not try to hostile takeover, they asked, and yahoo said noJun 12 14:03
_Mutex_they are all "IF's"Jun 12 14:04
_Mutex_IF ms does a hostile takeover, not THEY HAVEJun 12 14:04
splosion_And now the site has been properly slashdotted.Jun 12 14:05
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] In Fedora, Tomboy and Banshee Depend on Winforms < http://ping.fm/EPZQT >Jun 12 14:05
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[trmanco] ♺ @schestowitz: In Fedora, Tomboy and Banshee Depend on Winforms < http://ping.fm/EPZQT >Jun 12 14:05
_Mutex_and you dont have hostile takeover "bids" you acquire the majority of shares, and just take control by majority shares,Jun 12 14:05
MinceRso your point is that m$ is such a nice company they wouldn't even thinking of a hostile takeover?Jun 12 14:06
MinceRs/ing//Jun 12 14:06
_Mutex_that requires you to offer the shareholders enough money for them to be willing to sell their stocks to you,  IF they dont want you to take them over they dont sell.Jun 12 14:06
trmancoMore on mono: http://nocturn.vsbnet.be/node/155Jun 12 14:06
*schestowitz looksJun 12 14:06
MinceRthe point is, the managers of the company don't control the actions of the shareholdersJun 12 14:07
_Mutex_My point is, I cannot see a single point in time where MS has performed a hostile takeover, in teh past 25 years, they may have, but ive not heard of it.Jun 12 14:07
MinceRthat's no guarantee for anythingJun 12 14:07
_Mutex_and if they have NO, then every business they acquire has been based on mutual agreement.Jun 12 14:07
_Mutex_you're right, but its a good indicatorJun 12 14:07
schestowitztrmanco: The MSFTers jumped on him within hoursJun 12 14:08
trmancoyeah, I noticedJun 12 14:08
_Mutex_because if they have not done a hostile takeover, and you are saying they have, that would be FUD would it not ?Jun 12 14:08
MinceRand the "bid" is that you offer a deal to the shareholdersJun 12 14:08
schestowitzit's like those PR firmsJun 12 14:08
MinceRand see if they acceptJun 12 14:08
schestowitzWhere they have panic buttonsJun 12 14:08
MinceR_Mutex_: they have threatened oneJun 12 14:09
schestowitzWhen they spot some damaging writing they quickly invoke a big bury-gangJun 12 14:09
_Mutex_thats right to the shareholders, and they have to decide if they will sell you a majority share, they too can say no.Jun 12 14:09
MinceR"A hostile takeover allows a suitor to bypass a target company's management unwilling to agree to a merger or takeover. A takeover is considered "hostile" if the target company's board rejects the offer, but the bidder continues to pursue it, or the bidder makes the offer without informing the target company's board beforehand."Jun 12 14:09
MinceRonce again, shareholders != managementJun 12 14:09
_Mutex_Yes, thats what a hostile takeover is,, exactlyJun 12 14:10
MinceRshareholders != board of directorsJun 12 14:10
_Mutex_Right again,Jun 12 14:10
MinceRso being able to say no doesn't mean it's not hostile.Jun 12 14:10
MinceRthe question is who can say noJun 12 14:10
_Mutex_you wont get an argument from me, if your right :)Jun 12 14:10
MinceRthe shareholders can always say no, it's their propertyJun 12 14:10
_Mutex_In a hostile takeover , its every shareholder, and yes NOT the management, unless they have sharesJun 12 14:10
_Mutex_All steakholders have a say, to their value of their stocksJun 12 14:11
MinceRi doubt you need to deal with every shareholder, just the majorityJun 12 14:11
_Mutex_so we agree all that we know what a hostile takeover is, good :)Jun 12 14:11
MinceRafter that you can take control of the companyJun 12 14:11
_Mutex_right again, you need that 51% usuallyJun 12 14:11
MinceRafaik the news were that m$ was trying to get control of yahoo, despite the management not wanting itJun 12 14:11
_Mutex_vis a vis a hostile takeoverJun 12 14:11
MinceRand that's the very definition of a hostile takeoverJun 12 14:12
MinceRthen the shareholders decided they didn't want itJun 12 14:12
_Mutex_mabey they did, I just asked has MS EVER performed a hostile takeover, and answer is clearly NO.Jun 12 14:12
trmancoFF 3.5 Draw Time: 8875ms || Chromium Draw Time: 17790ms -> http://people.mozilla.com/~schrep/image12.htmlJun 12 14:12
MinceRi can't give a clear answer to thatJun 12 14:12
MinceRi didn't keep watch of it; a web search turns up over 100 articles on the yahoo bid; excluding "yahoo" brings up lots of speculations.Jun 12 14:13
_Mutex_Mind you, there is nothing wrong with a hostile takeover, its a perfectly legal process, all it means is the majority shareholders decide that they want new management.Jun 12 14:13
MinceRindeedJun 12 14:13
trmancoFirefox isn't that slow after allJun 12 14:13
_Mutex_its not hostile to the shareholders, its hostile to the management,Jun 12 14:13
MinceRwell, it can be harmful to the companyJun 12 14:13
_Mutex_its FRIENDLY to the shareholders, or they wont do it.Jun 12 14:14
MinceRthe management can be expected to know better what's good for the company than the shareholdersJun 12 14:14
MinceRafter all, that's what the management gets paid to doJun 12 14:14
MinceRusually the board includes the founders, who've made the mistake of selling too great part of the company to retain complete control :)Jun 12 14:14
_Mutex_Generally in business, hostile takeovers is something you do as opposed to going under, usually due to poor management.Jun 12 14:14
MinceRi don't know about thatJun 12 14:14
_Mutex_therefore someone else comes in, buys major shares and takes over management and tries to run it correctly and profitabilyJun 12 14:15
MinceRnot necessarily correctly nor profitablyJun 12 14:15
MinceRhaving tons of money doesn't mean you know how to run that businessJun 12 14:15
MinceRm$ is the prime example of this.Jun 12 14:15
MinceRthat's why the takeover would have been a Bad Thing.Jun 12 14:16
MinceR(well, one of the reasons)Jun 12 14:16
_Mutex_because generally when a business is in trouble its share price drops, a larger company offers the shareholders good value considing the share price, if they sell they agree the new management would be better, its an election.Jun 12 14:16
_Mutex_thats all true, but  usually a hostile takeover follows after the existing management has shown they cant turn a profit,  so someone else PAYS for a chance to try.Jun 12 14:17
splosion_In the UK in the sixties and seventies, a few businessmen went and did one hostile takeover after another. They liquidated the assets of the companies they took over, destroyed them, and made themselves a tidy sum to boot. British manufacturing has *never* recovered since. They pretty much single-handedly destroyed a lot of industries. Important historical foJun 12 14:17
splosion_footnote*Jun 12 14:17
_Mutex_again, its not considered that much of a bad thing, and often its the only way to save a business.Jun 12 14:17
_Mutex_Not that MS has actually ever done it, so the point is mootJun 12 14:18
splosion_and off I go. Tah!Jun 12 14:19
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MinceRit's not only for saving businessesJun 12 14:23
_Mutex_no its not, its also for taking over a business that you can convice the majority shareholders you can run better.Jun 12 14:24
_Mutex_But if the business is doing well, shareholders often wont wan to change.Jun 12 14:24
_Mutex_So again, the choice is all theirs, they can either choose to accept it or not.Jun 12 14:25
MinceRyou don't need to convince them that you can run it better, all you need to convince them of is that they can turn a quick profit by selling it to you.Jun 12 14:25
_Mutex_Its a moot point, MS has never done a hostile takeover, so by definition all the business that are purchased by MS (or anyone else for that matter) was done with their agreeement and concent and would not have happend if they did not want itJun 12 14:26
_Mutex_MinceR yes, thats right, after they sell their shares they dont care, but you do or you're thrown away your money you just spent.Jun 12 14:27
MinceRor you've just acquired a competitorJun 12 14:27
MinceRand you can liquidate it and earn profits by your own operations.Jun 12 14:27
_Mutex_sure, again nothing wrong with b uying something if the buyer and seller agree on the trade.Jun 12 14:28
_Mutex_happens every time you go to maccasJun 12 14:28
MinceRdepends on why they agree about itJun 12 14:28
MinceRand what's the collateral damage.Jun 12 14:28
MinceRsure, it might be nothing wrong _for_ the buyer or the sellerJun 12 14:28
MinceRit might ruin a companyJun 12 14:29
_Mutex_No it does not depend on why, if the buyer and seller agree to the trade, they trade, dont tell me there is something wrong with buying things !!!Jun 12 14:29
_Mutex_But if thats the case and the seller did not want it, ,,,,, he would NOT sell.Jun 12 14:29
_Mutex_its the FREEDOM of choice here at issue.Jun 12 14:29
MinceRif you insist on abstracting everything into "buying things" then i'll insist on that sometimes there's something wrong with it.Jun 12 14:29
_Mutex_what else it is, its one business buying another, both businesses are concenting adults, and they both agree on teh trade.Jun 12 14:30
MinceRwhose freedom of choice?Jun 12 14:30
MinceRnopeJun 12 14:30
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[trmanco] MSN Canada Website Compromised by Hackers: http://is.gd/ZORJJun 12 14:30
_Mutex_if one does not agree (ie yahoo) the trade does not take placeJun 12 14:30
MinceRit's one party buying a business from another.Jun 12 14:30
_Mutex_Freedom on teh buyer and the seller.Jun 12 14:30
MinceRi'll say it once again: shareholders != managementJun 12 14:31
_Mutex_the seller is free to say YES, or NOJun 12 14:31
MinceRneither are they the employees or the customers.Jun 12 14:31
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_Mutex_I dont care about management, management are workers, shareholders are the OWNERS of teh companyJun 12 14:31
MinceRsuch a deal affects more than just the seller and the buyerJun 12 14:31
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_Mutex_managers work for the ownersJun 12 14:31
MinceRyes, it's legal, and no, legal doesn't mean right.Jun 12 14:31
_Mutex_ofcourse it does, and if it adversly affects one party, then they say no,, its not that hardJun 12 14:32
MinceRif you work for someone, do you automatically surrender all control over your work and the rest of your life to him?Jun 12 14:32
_Mutex_Its not right for you to buy a car ? if you wan tto buy it, and the seller wants to sell it,  end of story.Jun 12 14:33
_Mutex_No you dont, but during working time you do, thats what your paid for.Jun 12 14:33
MinceRdo cars contain or employ sentient beings? are they unique?Jun 12 14:33
_Mutex_ yes and yesJun 12 14:33
MinceRhow many people depend on one specific car and how?Jun 12 14:33
MinceRinteresting, please explain.Jun 12 14:33
_Mutex_we're talking about business, and if you went your way, you would not buy a handburger because a cow had to die for it.Jun 12 14:34
_Mutex_You dont think that if you did not buy it, that cow many not of existed in the first place.Jun 12 14:34
_Mutex_its a silly argument.Jun 12 14:34
_Mutex_Two business owners agree on a trade, they make that trade end of story, no foul, no hard.Jun 12 14:35
trmancosome more crap from softpedias microsoft dude-> http://news.softpedia.com/news/Behind-Windows-and-Linux-Interoperability-Efforts-114029.shtml embed silvylight stuff in thereJun 12 14:35
_Mutex_wasnt there a bit Open source company that was gobbled up by another open source company recently ?  what was it called moon, stars... oh thats right SUN :)Jun 12 14:36
MinceRso you think that m$ should buy all the companies they have the money for?Jun 12 14:38
MinceReven if all it would do about them is shut them down?Jun 12 14:38
MinceRwhat would you think if randomCompetitor came around and bought the company you worked for, only to fire you?Jun 12 14:38
_Mutex_no not at all, just as I dont think IBM or Red Hat should, but if they agree with another company to make a business arraingement, they are totally right to do so.Jun 12 14:39
_Mutex_and it happens everywhere, even FOSS !!Jun 12 14:39
MinceRand that makes it rightJun 12 14:39
_Mutex_does not make it wrongJun 12 14:40
MinceRi wonder why we have antitrust lawsJun 12 14:40
MinceRprobably just filler in the books :>Jun 12 14:40
_Mutex_anti-trust has nothing to do with business mergersJun 12 14:40
MinceRthat's an interesting argumentJun 12 14:40
MinceRconsidering that some mergers were stopped _because_ such laws existedJun 12 14:40
_Mutex_Intel just paid a big anti-trust fine to the EU right,,, millions of dollars, and what merger did that involve ?Jun 12 14:41
_Mutex_MS has been up for anti-trust, and what merger was that from ?Jun 12 14:41
_Mutex_again: noneJun 12 14:41
MinceRwow, there were two antitrust cases that didn't involve mergersJun 12 14:42
_Mutex_its oricle going to be sued for anti-trust because of SUN ??Jun 12 14:42
MinceRthe only problem is that you're following the causality from the wrong directionJun 12 14:42
MinceRif they'll acquire a monopoly this way then probably yesJun 12 14:43
_Mutex_you mean the forward direction,Jun 12 14:43
MinceR(unless they sell off the offending part)Jun 12 14:43
_Mutex_you cant make assumptions on what MIGHT happen, because what might happen rarly does actually happen, its much easier to stick to the facts of what has allready happend, so that is the direction I take.Jun 12 14:44
trmancohttp://www.theopensourcerer.com/2009/06/12/the-ubuntumono-debate-continues/Jun 12 14:45
_Mutex_Sure MS might do a hostile takeover one day, and so may Conanical, or IBM, or oricle and whever, you just have to use the facts as they stand today not next year, because thats well into FUD land.Jun 12 14:45
MinceR_Mutex_: what's your point?Jun 12 14:46
_Mutex_I forgot !!! :)Jun 12 14:46
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[trmanco] Opera, EU Not Satisfied with IE Unbundling: http://is.gd/ZPYoJun 12 14:50
_Mutex_its amazing that Opera or anyone would expect MS (or anyone) to ship a competitors product with their own, its a joke. FF made it to the big time with EU holding their hand.Jun 12 14:53
_Mutex_Sounds like a care of "I suck so much I need the EU to bail me out".Jun 12 14:53
oiaohmReally the damage is done from bundling.Jun 12 14:54
oiaohmLot of businesses still use IE internally and I still have companies that try to say firefox and Opera don't exist.Jun 12 14:54
_Mutex_if it was FF would be still a zero , and i beleive its doing a touch better than zero last I checked. how bout you ?Jun 12 14:55
oiaohmReally EU should demard the IE removal gobally.Jun 12 14:55
_Mutex_thats what they said they will do,Jun 12 14:55
oiaohmNo only in the EU.Jun 12 14:56
oiaohmI mean no version of windows 7 comes with IE.Jun 12 14:56
oiaohmThat would be true unbundling.Jun 12 14:56
_Mutex_I would not care, as long as no version of Linux did, or no version of OSX did as well,Jun 12 14:56
oiaohmIf they don't want to do that have to put in a vote application there option.Jun 12 14:56
_Mutex_or is it only for one and not everyone ?Jun 12 14:56
_Mutex_some kind of biased freedom in play ?Jun 12 14:57
oiaohmthere is no reason why Linux distributions cannot give users choice of browser on install either.Jun 12 14:57
oiaohmNot like its a major pest to open sourceJun 12 14:57
_Mutex_exactly, and Apple, if you want to go that way, FF is successful without unbundling, I dont see its an issue.Jun 12 14:58
_Mutex_browsers above all else seem to be able to compete on merit, so let it continue.Jun 12 14:58
oiaohmNot purely.Jun 12 14:58
oiaohmYou do still get things like sharepoint from MS that will not play well with Firefox.Jun 12 14:58
_Mutex_dont FOSS people say FF is more popular than IE these days ?Jun 12 14:58
_Mutex_or closeJun 12 14:59
MinceRi think the EU shouldn't make such complex demands, they should simply ban the import of m$ products.Jun 12 14:59
_Mutex_or competing you know EVENLYJun 12 14:59
oiaohmAnti trust is about forcing playing fair.Jun 12 14:59
MinceR_Mutex_: you're talking about _even_ _competition_ in the case of m$... what have you been smoking?Jun 12 14:59
_Mutex_might as well just ban software then, or hardware same effectJun 12 14:59
oiaohmUsing sharepoint to lock users into IE and other MS products is not fair.Jun 12 14:59
_Mutex_im saying based ON PERFORMANCE in teh market there IS even competition with FF.Jun 12 15:00
_Mutex_you know, with facts as things stand right now,Jun 12 15:00
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] RT @trmanco MSN Canada Website Compromised by Hackers: http://is.gd/ZORJJun 12 15:00
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oiaohmSorry _Mutex_ I know lots of business who don't run firefox due to issues with sites and internal software.Jun 12 15:01
oiaohmFirefox numbers have gone up a lot due to section of EU going away from running windows completely.Jun 12 15:01
_Mutex_when that is a quality issue, not a promotion issue.Jun 12 15:01
MinceR_Mutex_: most users don't even know they could change browsersJun 12 15:02
oiaohmNo its not.Jun 12 15:02
MinceR_Mutex_: so they keep using ffJun 12 15:02
oiaohmIE does not obey standards _Mutex_Jun 12 15:02
MinceR_Mutex_: on computers they've bought with windows preinstalled, once again without choiceJun 12 15:02
_Mutex_you said it, FF has issues with sitea and internal software.Jun 12 15:02
MinceR_Mutex_: this is why the EU is trying to change things.Jun 12 15:02
_Mutex_why ?Jun 12 15:02
oiaohmBecause stuff like sharepoint uses Html code invalidly _Mutex_ that is why FF has trouble.Jun 12 15:03
MinceR_Mutex_: unlike the USA, some of us do believe in fair competition in businessJun 12 15:03
_Mutex_ok So MS is going to unbundle IE, end of story right ?Jun 12 15:03
oiaohmNopJun 12 15:03
_Mutex_we all do,Jun 12 15:03
MinceR_Mutex_: it's an important factor of a little thing we call capitalismJun 12 15:03
MinceR_Mutex_: you might have heard of it.Jun 12 15:03
oiaohmEnd or story is when MS plays by the rules with everything they make.Jun 12 15:03
MinceR_Mutex_: bundling of IE also harms web standards more than anything else could.Jun 12 15:03
oiaohmEU anti-trust has many more things they can hit MS for.Jun 12 15:03
oiaohmLike sharepoint, exchanges web mail interface,  MS training sites being IE only.Jun 12 15:04
_Mutex_bundling software does not hurt anything, if it does, then why does Linux do it, and why does Apple do it ?Jun 12 15:04
oiaohmIt does _Mutex_Jun 12 15:04
_Mutex_or is it only damaging when MS does something ?Jun 12 15:04
oiaohmDifference is Linux how many web browsers does Linux bundle.Jun 12 15:05
oiaohmLinux bundling is not 1 of something.Jun 12 15:05
_Mutex_I dont know, how many comes with OSX ??? 1Jun 12 15:05
MinceRalso, "Linux" is not _one_ OS.Jun 12 15:06
_Mutex_'Jun 12 15:06
MinceRthere are hundreds of GNU/Linux distros you can choose from -- therefore you'd retain the choice even if many of them didn't offer a choice of browsers.Jun 12 15:06
MinceRbut they do.Jun 12 15:06
_Mutex_yes it is, Linux is ONE kernel, GNU is the OS around the Linux kernel, GNU is not the OS, linux is,Jun 12 15:06
oiaohmOS X funny enoungh does not install a webbrowser by defualt.Jun 12 15:07
oiaohmIts an optional install.Jun 12 15:07
_Mutex_so how many Distro's dont use Linus's Linux kernel ?Jun 12 15:07
oiaohmMS is the only one really installing a webbrowser by default.Jun 12 15:07
MinceRalso, GNU/Linux comes with tools you can get and install many browsers if you choose toJun 12 15:07
oiaohmWithout giving options.Jun 12 15:07
MinceRwindows currently doesn't do that very wellJun 12 15:07
MinceRyou'd have to use command-line ftp to get the installer.Jun 12 15:08
_Mutex_No, OSX, and I bet my ass if I downloaed and installed a vanilla Ununtu it would have a browser in it ,, am i right ?Jun 12 15:08
MinceRvanilla ubuntu would have multiple browsers in itJun 12 15:08
_Mutex_or click on a "install_ie8.bat" file, that opens an FTP and does it automaticallyJun 12 15:08
_Mutex_MincrR thankyou, exactlyJun 12 15:09
oiaohmOS X saffari is optional just in case you are installing and it has a secuirty flaw.Jun 12 15:09
oiaohmYou may not want to install it.Jun 12 15:09
_Mutex_Let me guess, they are all open source right !!Jun 12 15:09
oiaohmSo it asks.Jun 12 15:09
MinceR_Mutex_: yes they areJun 12 15:09
MinceR_Mutex_: though last time i checked opera was in canonical's proprietary repo.Jun 12 15:09
_Mutex_So then you click on the "install_Firefox.bat" file. or the one of 10 others, its really not that hard.Jun 12 15:09
oiaohmIf you add restricted repos you can install opera and it will be updated.Jun 12 15:10
MinceR(not enabled by default)Jun 12 15:10
oiaohmJust like everything else _Mutex_Jun 12 15:10
_Mutex_thats right, just like everything else, you got it,Jun 12 15:10
MinceR_Mutex_: it's certainly not a difficult task, it's just distasteful to MICROS~1Jun 12 15:10
oiaohmWindows does not provide closed source with intergration options into the update system either.Jun 12 15:10
MinceR_Mutex_: because they'd be forced to competeJun 12 15:10
MinceR_Mutex_: and we all know they can't compete.Jun 12 15:10
MinceRthey know it too.Jun 12 15:10
_Mutex_who would be forced to compete, MS ??Jun 12 15:10
oiaohmThere is a long list of MS anti-trust problems _Mutex_Jun 12 15:11
oiaohmJust like auto installing plugins into firefox.Jun 12 15:11
_Mutex_list 4 of them olsJun 12 15:11
MinceR_Mutex_: yes, m$Jun 12 15:11
oiaohmThat is a against anti-trust as well.Jun 12 15:11
_Mutex_so its fair for anyone to do anything, as long as its not MS,, okJun 12 15:11
oiaohmNop _Mutex_Jun 12 15:11
MinceR_Mutex_: no others are currently in a position to seriously harm competition.Jun 12 15:11
oiaohmLinux distributions make it simple for users to choose closed source.Jun 12 15:11
_Mutex_FF isJun 12 15:12
oiaohmAnd have it maintained.Jun 12 15:12
oiaohmHeck some distributions even ship with opera and install it default.Jun 12 15:12
MinceR_Mutex_: also, no others have consistently demonstrated an unstoppable urge to do so at every chance.Jun 12 15:12
_Mutex_Is that the fault of MS that no other company can develop a competative product (except FF).Jun 12 15:12
MinceR_Mutex_: m$ has a history of anticompetitive business practices.Jun 12 15:12
MinceR_Mutex_: many others can, they just weren't really let into the marketJun 12 15:12
oiaohm_Mutex_: MS has disreguarded standards.Jun 12 15:12
_Mutex_I know its easy to make sweeping broad statement, without supporting proof. which is why I asked  you to list themJun 12 15:13
oiaohmThat is truly anti competitive without question.Jun 12 15:13
_Mutex_which if you are unable, I have to assume FUDJun 12 15:13
MinceR_Mutex_: how is listing claims supposed to prove them?Jun 12 15:13
oiaohmhtml standard MS IE will not support video tag even after its passed for a fair while.Jun 12 15:14
_Mutex_manbey that they actually exist in real life, and not in an imaginationJun 12 15:14
MinceR_Mutex_: that's like me asking you to say "foo" to prove your point and then you say "foo" then i say it doesn't prove your argument so you're wrong.Jun 12 15:14
oiaohmJust because it under mines there closed source silverlight plans.Jun 12 15:14
oiaohmForcing other browsers on MS will block them from not supporting html standards.Jun 12 15:15
_Mutex_no its like you saying MS does hostile takeovers, so I ask for one example to support your claim and you are unable to support your claim with you know,, factsJun 12 15:15
oiaohmHow much do you want on MS using IE to break html standards.Jun 12 15:15
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[astralknight] Low quality Microsoft Outlook causes much suffering: http://digg.com/d1tdm5?tJun 12 15:15
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] Microsoft and ODF: “Not Just Beer” < http://ping.fm/wuhss >Jun 12 15:15
MinceR_Mutex_: as a starting point, you might want to try http://boycottnovell.com/2007/12/01/antitrust-letters-doj/Jun 12 15:15
MinceRthere are plenty of facts thereJun 12 15:16
_Mutex_you're going to have to do better than quoting this web page pleaseJun 12 15:16
oiaohmWe are talking over 5000 pages.Jun 12 15:16
_Mutex_of retericJun 12 15:16
oiaohmFar more than what will fit in a IRC channel _Mutex_Jun 12 15:16
MinceR_Mutex_: you're going to have to do better than to ask information to be spoon-fed to you.Jun 12 15:16
_Mutex_ok then for you it should be a trivial matter to pull the info I asked for.Jun 12 15:16
_Mutex_so you should be able to go straight to a list of hostile takovers MS has done right ??Jun 12 15:17
MinceR_Mutex_: m$'s history of ruining the IT industry will hardly fit on IRC.Jun 12 15:17
oiaohmIE 8 will be the only browser not to support the video tag.Jun 12 15:17
MinceR_Mutex_: we aren't talking about hostile takeovers currentlyJun 12 15:17
_Mutex_just give me one then,, ONE single business pleaseJun 12 15:17
MinceR_Mutex_: so you switch topics because you realize you've lost?Jun 12 15:17
_Mutex_ok a statement that IE will break web standards. based on what information do you make that statement ?Jun 12 15:18
oiaohmBreaches of w3c.org standards shown up in acid tests over the years.   Being last to take up standards like html 5.Jun 12 15:18
_Mutex_and all open source browsers pass this test with flying colors ?Jun 12 15:19
MinceR_Mutex_: on the information that it has always done so in the past. also probably they've made a declaration of that but i'm not the one to ask about that.Jun 12 15:19
oiaohmThat IE 8 need a special mode to support IE 7 and eariler browsers because IE 7 and eariler borwsers html will not render in a standard mode browser.Jun 12 15:19
_Mutex_soJun 12 15:20
oiaohm_Mutex_: Open source ones all do in time.Jun 12 15:20
_Mutex_and do all the FOSS browsers pass the acid test ?Jun 12 15:20
oiaohmOpen soruce ones either fail to know how to render something completely.Jun 12 15:20
oiaohmOr rendering it to spec.Jun 12 15:20
MinceR_Mutex_: the popular ones tend to beat IE at it.Jun 12 15:20
_Mutex_so they either pass or fail,, fair enoughJun 12 15:21
oiaohmCompared to MS that render it incorrectly.Jun 12 15:21
oiaohmNo there is 3.Jun 12 15:21
oiaohmpass fail and render different to spec.Jun 12 15:21
oiaohmIE gets render different to spec.Jun 12 15:21
_Mutex_different to spec, to me reads "breaking the html spec" just as you accuse IE of doing.Jun 12 15:21
oiaohmYep.Jun 12 15:22
oiaohmSo what should be like 3 lines space ends up like -1 or somethign else stupid.Jun 12 15:22
oiaohmand unique to IE.Jun 12 15:22
oiaohmReason why web developers hate IE extreamly.Jun 12 15:22
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oiaohmYou build a page perfectly to spec IE processes and produces something that looks nothing like it should.Jun 12 15:23
oiaohmSo you have to make alterations that are not to spec so IE renders it right.Jun 12 15:23
MinceRwhich then breaks it for all standards-compliant browsers, of course.Jun 12 15:23
MinceRunless you do really ugly hacks to try and work around itJun 12 15:24
_Mutex_sounds like a case of if you dont like it dont use it, and considering the popularity of FF many are quite happy and capable of doing that (even my mom).Jun 12 15:24
MinceRor detect IE and serve it different content.Jun 12 15:24
_Mutex_so whats the problem again ?Jun 12 15:24
MinceR_Mutex_: the problem is that the ill-gained dominance of IE forces web devlopers to ignore standardsJun 12 15:24
MinceR_Mutex_: which in turn makes web sites more difficult to processJun 12 15:24
oiaohmIE track record is processing html tags incorrectly so requiring incorrect html so standard following browsers cannot render _Mutex_Jun 12 15:25
MinceRit also wastes the resources of web developers and browser developersJun 12 15:25
oiaohmReason why IE 8 needs a special mode for IE 7 and before.Jun 12 15:25
MinceRit also wastes bandwidth and processing powerJun 12 15:25
oiaohmThe more they brought IE into standard following the less IE pages worked.Jun 12 15:25
MinceRwe have standards precisely to avoid the problems IE createsJun 12 15:25
oiaohmSo they had to include a hack around the issue.Jun 12 15:25
MinceRthere's no gain for human society from the existence of IE, but it causes plenty of harm.Jun 12 15:25
oiaohmNow MS is doing a go slow on standard take up.Jun 12 15:26
MinceRtherefore it's in our best interests to get rid of IE.Jun 12 15:26
oiaohmGoing slow on standard take up is just as bad.   web developers are then forced to code for the poorest browser.Jun 12 15:26
_Mutex_Konqueror just failed http://acid3.acidtests.org/ big time. no better than IE.Jun 12 15:27
_Mutex_and slowerJun 12 15:27
oiaohmLOLJun 12 15:27
oiaohmHave you seen IE fail that.Jun 12 15:27
MinceR_Mutex_: today if a web developer needs to develop a web page, they need to develop it twice: once for standard HTML and once for IE.Jun 12 15:27
_Mutex_I ran both, yes,Jun 12 15:27
MinceR_Mutex_: and the latter of those to costs a lot more.Jun 12 15:27
MinceRs/to/two/Jun 12 15:27
_Mutex_IE is free :)Jun 12 15:27
MinceRno, it isn't free. it's gratisJun 12 15:28
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oiaohmIE does not run on anything else other than Windows..Jun 12 15:28
oiaohmSo how is it free _Mutex_Jun 12 15:28
MinceRand windows isn't even gratisJun 12 15:28
wispygalaxyhello everyone!Jun 12 15:28
oiaohmYou paid for it when you got windows _Mutex_Jun 12 15:28
wispygalaxyhey oiaohmJun 12 15:28
wispygalaxyhi minceRJun 12 15:28
_Mutex_its as free as foss, ie i did not pay money for it,Jun 12 15:28
MinceRhay wispygalaxyJun 12 15:28
wispygalaxyand hello mutexJun 12 15:28
MinceR_Mutex_: then you've failed to understand what "free software" is about.Jun 12 15:29
MinceRonce again i'd give you a link but i already know you won't read anything.Jun 12 15:29
_Mutex_you mean RMS's 4 freedoms, Hmm, no ive never read them :)Jun 12 15:29
MinceRyou just spew the same m$ propaganda over and over again.Jun 12 15:29
MinceRalso, how much money did you pay for windows?Jun 12 15:29
oiaohm_Mutex_: Price of lockin on browser is also lockin on OS's people can use.Jun 12 15:30
wispygalaxyyou indirectly pay for it when you buy a new laptop, that's what i did 2 years agoJun 12 15:30
_Mutex_well for win XP I paid about $150 for it, it lasted me 8 years, so wait, calculatingJun 12 15:30
oiaohmIts never free _Mutex_Jun 12 15:30
MinceR_Mutex_: what kind of software do you expect to erode over time?Jun 12 15:30
wispygalaxyxp gets slower as time goes onJun 12 15:30
oiaohmIf IE was a standard following browser EU would not had as much case against MS.Jun 12 15:31
MinceRreinstall is supposed to fix thatJun 12 15:31
MinceRof course, one can do better things with his time...Jun 12 15:31
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wispygalaxywhy should i resort to that?Jun 12 15:31
_Mutex_well you work it out, (150 / 8)/12 = some piddling small amount, probably a couple beers a monthJun 12 15:31
MinceRwispygalaxy: nobody should.Jun 12 15:31
wispygalaxyit should be working well constantlyJun 12 15:31
wispygalaxyhey hichamJun 12 15:31
MinceR_Mutex_: part of that is the cost of IEJun 12 15:31
oiaohm_Mutex_: its still a price tag no matter how small.Jun 12 15:31
wispygalaxyi agree mincerJun 12 15:31
_Mutex_I had the same XP on teh same machine for 8 years, I never noticed any performance degrading, (not like Win95,ME crap)Jun 12 15:32
oiaohmTimes that by a few thousand machines that you are running windows on because internal websites don't work with anything other than IE.Jun 12 15:32
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oiaohmSorry its more than a few beers a month.Jun 12 15:32
_Mutex_then its nothing, less than I paid for the RAMJun 12 15:32
_Mutex_Far less than my internet accountJun 12 15:32
oiaohmBrowser lockin effects companies worse.Jun 12 15:32
MinceR_Mutex_: then i'd ask you to pay me nothing.Jun 12 15:32
oiaohmYou are only a small end user _Mutex_Jun 12 15:32
MinceR_Mutex_: and by nothing, i apparently mean $150.Jun 12 15:33
oiaohmCost to companies if the IE mess is huge.Jun 12 15:33
_Mutex_MinceR and I would agree to pay you thatJun 12 15:33
wispygalaxywith large companies, software costs are extensiveJun 12 15:33
_Mutex_$150 is nothing,Jun 12 15:33
MinceRthen again, 10000*nothing is still nothingJun 12 15:33
_Mutex_over 8 yearsJun 12 15:33
MinceRso i'd ask you $1500000.Jun 12 15:33
oiaohmOr 1 million _Mutex_Jun 12 15:33
MinceRand then you can wait 8 years afterward, just like with windows.Jun 12 15:33
oiaohmAs some companies I know have paid.Jun 12 15:33
oiaohmThere internet connect is way less than there software cost.Jun 12 15:34
oiaohmVPN's and all.Jun 12 15:34
MinceRor even better, i'll let you wait 16 years afterward, and then you've paid half of nothing!Jun 12 15:34
oiaohmFor home users running 1 or 2 machines the OS cost does not look much.Jun 12 15:35
oiaohmOnce you start talking thousands of machines its a darn log.Jun 12 15:35
oiaohmLot.Jun 12 15:35
_Mutex_$1.56 per month for my Operating system, less than 1 beerJun 12 15:35
oiaohmRemember some cases it can be 1000 machines to 1 internet connection.Jun 12 15:35
oiaohmOk so 1560 a month then.Jun 12 15:36
oiaohmTo about 150 a month in internet connection.Jun 12 15:36
_Mutex_yes, 1 dollar and fifty six cents per month.Jun 12 15:36
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oiaohmThat is when it scales up for a business.Jun 12 15:36
_Mutex_massive, I can see why you're outraged !!! :)Jun 12 15:36
ld_hw_c1hiJun 12 15:37
MinceR_Mutex_: well, i got a better OS than that for $0 per month.Jun 12 15:37
wispygalaxysame here!Jun 12 15:37
_Mutex_you get your internet for free ?Jun 12 15:37
_Mutex_and your phone line ?Jun 12 15:37
MinceRand even if i were to deploy it on 1000 machines for a company, it would still cost $0 per month total.Jun 12 15:37
ld_hw_c1helloJun 12 15:37
wispygalaxyhey thereJun 12 15:37
ld_hw_c1how to use it?i use it first time/.Jun 12 15:37
MinceR_Mutex_: neither my internet connection nor my phone line depend on m$ products.Jun 12 15:37
_Mutex_it is would still cost the business $1.56 per month, like 10% of the coffee budget !!Jun 12 15:38
wispygalaxyit all adds upJun 12 15:38
oiaohm1.56 x number of machiens.Jun 12 15:38
schestowitzHey, wispygalaxy Jun 12 15:38
oiaohmtotals up quicky.Jun 12 15:38
wispygalaxyhi roy!  :DJun 12 15:38
schestowitzEarly for you todayJun 12 15:38
wispygalaxyoh yeahJun 12 15:38
ld_hw_c1oh yeah/Jun 12 15:38
wispygalaxyi'm a night owl :PJun 12 15:38
ld_hw_c1haha.Jun 12 15:38
ld_hw_c1night owl/Jun 12 15:38
wispygalaxy:)Jun 12 15:38
_Mutex_not when I can get paid $500 for an hour of work, or I could spend that hour fiddling with my OS, (mabey fun, but not productive).Jun 12 15:38
oiaohmAbout 150 per month is a high speed internet connection as fast as most businesses need _Mutex_Jun 12 15:38
ld_hw_c1=-OJun 12 15:39
wispygalaxyi never fiddle with debian, don't need to!Jun 12 15:39
schestowitzMinceR: with WIndows, the pay is a derivativeJun 12 15:39
schestowitzMS makes little money selling WindowsJun 12 15:39
wispygalaxyyou wonder how a noob like me survives on itJun 12 15:39
schestowitzIt's the locks that make them moneyJun 12 15:39
schestowitzRemember what BillG saidJun 12 15:39
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_Mutex_even as a private hourse, your phone and net charges would be much more than $2,00 per month im sureJun 12 15:39
MinceRi've fiddled plenty with windblows.Jun 12 15:39
oiaohmRemember you have cals to use MS servers on top of that _Mutex_Jun 12 15:39
MinceReven though i didn't want to.Jun 12 15:39
schestowitzI think a lot of 'income' may be warpedJun 12 15:39
schestowitzBut we don't know ywtJun 12 15:40
wispygalaxythe accounting practices, you mean, roy?Jun 12 15:40
oiaohmSo times that price you said by 20 _Mutex_Jun 12 15:40
wispygalaxyminceR: i don't want to fiddle with windows, not sure what i'll break!  :PJun 12 15:40
_Mutex_why 20 ?Jun 12 15:40
oiaohmThat is cal costs per machine _Mutex_Jun 12 15:41
schestowitzwispygalaxy: yes.Jun 12 15:41
_Mutex_what ?Jun 12 15:41
oiaohmAlong with MS OfficeJun 12 15:41
schestowitzWell, they don't pay taz eitherJun 12 15:41
ld_hw_c1what did you talk about?Jun 12 15:41
schestowitzThat in its own right contitutes an ethical crimeJun 12 15:41
ld_hw_c1may be about operation system.right?Jun 12 15:41
schestowitzTechnically, laws were changed to make it not a crime, technicallyJun 12 15:41
schestowitzThey call it "loophole"Jun 12 15:41
wispygalaxya corp is not a person, they use that excuseJun 12 15:41
oiaohmBasically once you get into business MS gets expensive fast _Mutex_Jun 12 15:42
schestowitzoiaohm: most people don't pay to use MSwareJun 12 15:42
wispygalaxyand bloated~!Jun 12 15:42
schestowitzOnly government do in much of the worldJun 12 15:42
schestowitzLook at countries like VBietnamJun 12 15:42
oiaohmSo lot of companies want out.Jun 12 15:42
schestowitzThe govt. might eventually be forced to payJun 12 15:42
schestowitzBut MS can't charge the peopleJun 12 15:42
wispygalaxyhaha VBietnam, was that a joke roy?Jun 12 15:42
ld_hw_c1yes.many people like linuxJun 12 15:42
schestowitzIt doesn't want to because it needs to spread lockin, stillJun 12 15:42
_Mutex_Ive been in business, ive set up peoples business, and I know the costs, adn BTW, RHEL is HEL expensive to have maintained,Jun 12 15:42
oiaohmHitting web sites that demard IE usage realy does cause problem _Mutex_Jun 12 15:43
_Mutex_like $1600 per day for 2 techs on site.Jun 12 15:43
schestowitzwispygalaxy: no, just a typoJun 12 15:43
schestowitzIs there a joke there? VB?Jun 12 15:43
wispygalaxyvisual basicJun 12 15:43
wispygalaxyidk lolJun 12 15:43
oiaohmRHEL all depends on how you setit up _Mutex_Jun 12 15:43
ld_hw_c1VB?java?Jun 12 15:43
wispygalaxyjava is betterJun 12 15:43
ld_hw_c1yeah..yesJun 12 15:44
oiaohmI make more money from support calls with Windows servers I service.Jun 12 15:44
oiaohmThan my redhat ones.Jun 12 15:44
_Mutex_and all it was was a file server, not even a bridge or router.Jun 12 15:44
oiaohmMy redhat ones once configured stay that way.Jun 12 15:44
wispygalaxygood!Jun 12 15:44
MinceR_Mutex_: come on, tell us that m$ offers support for windows for $150 for 8 months, for an unlimited amount of machinesJun 12 15:44
_Mutex_we only called RH once, until we got the bill, then bye bye RH, Dont call us , we'll call youJun 12 15:44
ld_hw_c1AIXJun 12 15:44
oiaohmHardware brakeage is about the only reason RH need work.Jun 12 15:45
_Mutex_No they dont, I did not pay for , want or expect support,Jun 12 15:45
ld_hw_c1how about AIX?Jun 12 15:45
_Mutex_I paid for the use of an operating system, I ended up paying very little, because the OS lasted a long time. lucky meJun 12 15:45
MinceR_Mutex_: so you argue that windows is almost free and you compare it to RHEL with commercial support for multiple machinesJun 12 15:45
schestowitz"You have enemies? Good. That means you've stood up forJun 12 15:45
schestowitzsomething, sometime in your life."Jun 12 15:45
schestowitz - Winston ChurchillJun 12 15:45
MinceR_Mutex_: just to claim that it's cheaper than RHEL?Jun 12 15:45
_Mutex_what cheaper, ??Jun 12 15:45
oiaohmYou do know using MS direct support line is more expensive than using RHEL's.Jun 12 15:45
MinceR_Mutex_: you were like "zomg RHEL is like so expensive!!111!1" a few moments agoJun 12 15:46
oiaohmCurrently to use MS direct support is a scary 50 USD a half hour.Jun 12 15:46
MinceR_Mutex_: and like "zomg windows costs like nothing!!111!11!11" a few moments before thatJun 12 15:46
_Mutex_No i was no cheaper than the RH guys, my charge out rate was even higher, $125 perhours, more than teh RH guys, but I was prime contractor, basical startup CIOJun 12 15:46
MinceR_Mutex_: i suppose logic never enters your world.Jun 12 15:46
_Mutex_until the jobs done, then im unemployed again,Jun 12 15:46
_Mutex_never leaves it sureJun 12 15:47
oiaohmAnd MS does count the time you were on hold.Jun 12 15:47
oiaohmwhat can be a hour before you start.Jun 12 15:47
oiaohmBasically don't call MS support line unless you have to.Jun 12 15:47
_Mutex_one, we were talking about the purchase of a software package, no support and maintenance, for me, linux or windows, I dont get outside help, i do it all myself,Jun 12 15:48
MinceR_Mutex_: if we weren't talking about support and maintenance then why did you bring up RHEL?Jun 12 15:48
_Mutex_the 2 RH guys were called before I got the job, they just happend to be there when I was there. I stayed, they didntJun 12 15:48
_Mutex_because someone started talking about "cal" and times something by 20 !!! (not sure why even now) :)Jun 12 15:49
MinceRwhat did the 2 RH guys do if not support and maintenance?Jun 12 15:49
ld_hw_c1yeah,there are you many programer/Jun 12 15:49
ld_hw_c1coolJun 12 15:49
oiaohmclient access licences _Mutex_ cal's.Jun 12 15:49
schestowitzI first read this in the French news that the HADOPI law was overturned on Constitutional grounds (namely, that it's up to the judiciary to determine guilt or innocence and, failing that, there is a presumption of innocence).  I found a link to the story in English: Jun 12 15:49
schestowitzFrench anti-filesharing law overturned <  http://www.guardian.co.uk/technology/2009/jun/10/france-hadopi-law-filesharing > "Jun 12 15:49
oiaohmRH does not have cals.Jun 12 15:49
schestowitz"After I sent this, I saw the "FSF Daily News" link on BN while I was perusing the latest articles.  Nonetheless, I'll not apologise for sending the message above because the Guardian article does offer some interesting clarifications regarding the situation in Britain, which hasn't got any prior publicity that I've seen.  It seems the British politicos are pursuing a "HADOPI-lite" type of system."Jun 12 15:50
schestowitz"BTW, my own problem with reading Usenet through individual.net seems to be solved.  The solution came with yet another set of network providers between me and individual.net.  I still suspect that some providers are rate-limiting Usenet for some misguided reason.  The British proposal for filesharers goes further down that path and is worrisome. "Jun 12 15:50
schestowitz"The French constitutional review certainly had more of the right idea, which is that one is presumably innocent until proven guilty."Jun 12 15:50
_Mutex_they were there for support for their RH box, they were commishing the system, my responsibility was everything including Linux box and everything else.Jun 12 15:50
_Mutex_when I started, they were there setting up their box, I took it over from that point and maintained the system.Jun 12 15:50
_Mutex_housekeeping, backup routines, print sharing and so on, was all my stuffJun 12 15:51
_Mutex_it also hosted the companies web page, but thats trivialJun 12 15:51
ld_hw_c1Jun 12 15:51
oiaohmNormally I install the RHEL myself _Mutex_Jun 12 15:51
_Mutex_same here,Jun 12 15:52
oiaohmI also do the complete software order.Jun 12 15:52
ld_hw_c1我也用过RHEL.Jun 12 15:52
schestowitzMichael Savage Threatening Sites That Connect Him To Rockstar Energy Drinks? < http://techdirt.com/articles/20090609/1421135179.shtml >Jun 12 15:53
_Mutex_ordit ?? same again, all version control, callout, phone support, system upgrades package support and maintance, backups, you know the drill, just the usual crapJun 12 15:53
schestowitzld_hw_c1: what's up?Jun 12 15:53
schestowitzLet's stick to English so that we can all read :-)Jun 12 15:53
_Mutex_LOLJun 12 15:53
oiaohmI do complete software aquirement.  If they want MS Office I order it and so on.Jun 12 15:53
_Mutex_ofcourse, thats what the IT guys job is after all.Jun 12 15:54
oiaohmSo total costings per machine for customers I do a lot.Jun 12 15:54
ld_hw_c1sechestowitz.sorry.Jun 12 15:54
oiaohmAnd with deperation over life if they want that too.Jun 12 15:54
schestowitzThis one is chilling (reposted this morning): http://techdirt.com/articles/20090611/1027095200.shtml Student Wins Against Professor's Threats Over Posting Code OnlineJun 12 15:54
schestowitzNo problem, ld_hw_c1 Jun 12 15:54
ld_hw_c1but my english is poor//hahJun 12 15:55
ld_hw_c1only i know you are talk about operation system.Jun 12 15:56
oiaohmI have many cases were I could be deploying Linux clients and cannot due to some old system running a website that is ie only that has to be rebuilt.Jun 12 15:56
_Mutex_im trying to remember the DB that RH had I cant remember its name, it think it was some proprietary thing, Ill think of it soon.Jun 12 15:56
schestowitzld_hw_c1: so do we ;-)Jun 12 15:56
ld_hw_c1really?Jun 12 15:57
schestowitzSort ofJun 12 15:57
schestowitzVocabularies are sparser where computers are concernedJun 12 15:57
schestowitzNot names of utensils in the kitchenJun 12 15:57
schestowitzOr different species of fish, say..Jun 12 15:57
ld_hw_c1my native language is not english.Jun 12 15:57
Eruaranhi allJun 12 15:58
ld_hw_c1hiJun 12 15:58
oiaohm_Mutex_: orcale normally _Mutex_ it runs better on RH than windows.Jun 12 15:58
schestowitzEruaran: we found another fake endorsement of VistaJun 12 15:58
EruaranohrlyJun 12 15:58
EruaranheheJun 12 15:58
schestowitzSee http://boycottnovell.com/2009/06/12/tesco-lies-for-ms-cash/Jun 12 15:58
MinceRit should run even better on Oracle Unbreakable Linux. :)Jun 12 15:58
wispygalaxyhello EruaranJun 12 15:58
Eruaranhi wispygalaxyJun 12 15:59
oiaohmUnbreakable Linux is basically rhel rebranded.Jun 12 15:59
MinceRi know, that's why i said it :)Jun 12 15:59
oiaohmSo not much difference.Jun 12 15:59
MinceRalso, its name is funny.Jun 12 15:59
wispygalaxyhaha yesJun 12 15:59
oiaohmUbuntu is still trying to get Oracle cerfifed.Jun 12 15:59
EruaranM$ via Citrix is after VyattaJun 12 16:00
*Eruaran sighsJun 12 16:00
_Mutex_except in his email he does not say they are receiving payments from MSJun 12 16:00
_Mutex_he says he'll past it onJun 12 16:00
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] The Korea-type policy comes to the US: Attorneys Fishing For Tons Of Info < http://ping.fm/9J7Re >Jun 12 16:00
EruaranI had another customer request an Ubuntu install todayJun 12 16:00
*oiaohm has quit (Remote closed the connection)Jun 12 16:01
EruaranI think I'll go with the flow for nowJun 12 16:01
schestowitzEruaran: I tried DKE4Jun 12 16:01
schestowitzLoved itJun 12 16:01
Eruaran4.3 ?Jun 12 16:01
schestowitzNo issues found so farJun 12 16:01
schestowitz4.1Jun 12 16:01
Eruaran4.1 ???Jun 12 16:01
schestowitzI might use 4.3 when I upgrade main machinesJun 12 16:02
ld_hw_c1solaris is better.Jun 12 16:02
schestowitzFor desktop?Jun 12 16:02
EruaranI'm using 4.2.4 atmJun 12 16:02
_Mutex_KDE app builder framework is shaping up quite nice IMOJun 12 16:02
schestowitzld_hw_c1: not much software for Solaris.Jun 12 16:02
MinceRsolaris is a DE now? :)Jun 12 16:02
EruaranI actually got tired of compositing and turned it offJun 12 16:02
schestowitz /lor/low/Jun 12 16:03
EruaranI'm just not in the mood for fancy things atmJun 12 16:03
ld_hw_c1DE?sorry.what is mean?Jun 12 16:03
schestowitzDesktop Environment=DEJun 12 16:03
MinceRDesktop EnvironmentJun 12 16:03
schestowitzLike KDEJun 12 16:03
Eruaranbut kde 4.2 is really nice to use without all that stuff turned on as wellJun 12 16:03
schestowitzOR GNOMEJun 12 16:03
schestowitzSlowaris comes with GNOME usually... most distros, AFAIKJun 12 16:03
schestowitzGa-NOM!Jun 12 16:04
schestowitzGah!larisJun 12 16:04
ld_hw_c1yeah.really?but it can support oracle.domino.and so on..Jun 12 16:04
EruaranI'm enjoying the extra snappy feel of a non-compositing desktop... after so much compiz etc... its almost a novelty ;)Jun 12 16:04
_Mutex_any decent benchmarks between Linux and OSolaris ?Jun 12 16:04
wispygalaxycompiz is fun and flashyJun 12 16:04
schestowitzStill better than TellytubbXPJun 12 16:04
EruaranKWin is catching up with compizJun 12 16:05
wispygalaxydefinitely royJun 12 16:05
schestowitz_Mutex_: yes, PhoronixJun 12 16:05
schestowitzLinux winsJun 12 16:05
*maxstirner1 (n=user@xdsl-87-78-90-200.netcologne.de) has joined #boycottnovellJun 12 16:05
_Mutex_ahh ok,  :)Jun 12 16:05
schestowitzDepends which distro of OpenSolaris thoughJun 12 16:05
schestowitzAnd same for LinuxJun 12 16:05
maxstirner1hello, don't know if anyone spotted this: http://secure.wikileaks.org/wiki/Documents_expose_the_influence_of_US_lobbies_on_the_EU_WorkGroup_on_Open_Source%2C_2009Jun 12 16:05
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] "No IE onboard Windows 7 in Europe" http://ping.fm/c38h5 People must remember this is done for 1990s crimes.Jun 12 16:05
wispygalaxydebian wins for me!Jun 12 16:05
schestowitzIt's the science of tweaking.. can prove anythingJun 12 16:05
schestowitzwb, maxstirner1 Jun 12 16:05
schestowitzLong time, no see.Jun 12 16:06
maxstirner1thanksJun 12 16:06
schestowitzBack from Brazil?Jun 12 16:06
wispygalaxyhi max, i'm wispyJun 12 16:06
_Mutex_has anyone tried the INTEL compiler build of linux, im told it's way faster than GCC ?? but I dont know that for sure. never seen the numbersJun 12 16:06
_Mutex_yes, specific tests favor one or the otherJun 12 16:06
wispygalaxyi haven'tJun 12 16:06
schestowitzwispygalaxy: Maybe you saw wiispy before. She's here rarelyJun 12 16:06
wispygalaxyhavent had the time :(Jun 12 16:06
maxstirner1hello, same hereJun 12 16:06
wispygalaxythanksJun 12 16:06
schestowitzShe's a Debian h4x0rJun 12 16:07
wispygalaxyi'll be on a bit more often though, schedule is freeing upJun 12 16:07
wispygalaxyohhhhh no i'm not lol!  i'm just a desktop user ;)Jun 12 16:07
maxstirner1wow, honour to have you on here then, i'm a great fan of all things debianJun 12 16:07
wispygalaxywhy thank you, i love it too!Jun 12 16:07
maxstirner1just spotted these wikileaks docs.. "Documents expose the influence of US lobbies on the EU WorkGroup on Open Source, 2009"Jun 12 16:08
wispygalaxyMS won't give upJun 12 16:09
EruaranI love the smell of a fresh Debian installJun 12 16:09
wispygalaxyi had an upgrade in march (Lenny(Jun 12 16:09
maxstirner1hehe i'm on ubuntu for ease of finding precompiled debs, but if they novellise it any further i'm off to debian shoresJun 12 16:10
EruaranI hear thatJun 12 16:10
wispygalaxyi found it pretty painless going from ubuntu to debianJun 12 16:10
maxstirner1it's disgusting reallyJun 12 16:10
schestowitzmaxstirner1: yes, I file a complaintJun 12 16:10
schestowitzWhen I find the timeJun 12 16:10
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] The MSBBC propagates the misconception that music can be "stolen": http://ping.fm/aGtaqJun 12 16:10
schestowitzI have the forms and allJun 12 16:10
maxstirner1i have debian on workstation #2Jun 12 16:10
schestowitzI need stampsJun 12 16:10
maxstirner1regarding the lobbying?Jun 12 16:10
schestowitzYesJun 12 16:11
wispygalaxysnail mail, roy?!Jun 12 16:11
schestowitzAnd Lars hiding the lobbyistsJun 12 16:11
maxstirner1snailmail is such a bureaucratic effort isnt itJun 12 16:11
schestowitzIt's like the Commission conceals themJun 12 16:11
wispygalaxyoh yes haha maxJun 12 16:11
schestowitzAnd taking 3 months to do nothingJun 12 16:11
_Mutex_heaps more impact that email, or phone callJun 12 16:11
maxstirner1official channels love paperwork, easier to file (i.e. bin) as wellJun 12 16:11
wispygalaxyyou can't ignore envelopes, it's in solid (not virtual) form.  you can't delete itJun 12 16:12
schestowitzThey should just start by putting Jonathan Zuck, in jailJun 12 16:12
schestowitzThen they can carry on to other monsters Microsoft is unleashing on EuropeJun 12 16:12
wispygalaxythey're trying to hard to be popular lolJun 12 16:12
wispygalaxytoo*Jun 12 16:13
schestowitzhuh?Jun 12 16:13
_Mutex_yes, they measure the level of effort you put into your message, so a 1 minute email means almost nothing, as does a phone call, but take the time to hand write a letter, and people (pollies) take a BIT of notice, mabey,, if your luck, and its not lunchtimeJun 12 16:13
schestowitzwispygalaxy: no, I'm pissed offJun 12 16:13
schestowitzMany others tooJun 12 16:13
schestowitzThis is part of Microsoft's corruption of the systemJun 12 16:13
wispygalaxyyeahJun 12 16:13
schestowitzit has to start ending somewhereJun 12 16:13
schestowitzThis is still small potatoesJun 12 16:13
schestowitzYou're paying tax for Microsoft Jun 12 16:14
schestowitzAnd your family tooJun 12 16:14
schestowitzTo build them bridges while they use their McCreevies to avoid paying taxJun 12 16:14
wispygalaxyfrom now on, i'll buy computers that have no OS or only linux preinstalledJun 12 16:14
maxstirner1asus has just left us RIP asusJun 12 16:14
schestowitzAnd Mr. Gates creates a 'creative chairty' to prevent paying tax as wellJun 12 16:14
ld_hw_c1realy?Jun 12 16:14
ld_hw_c1but MS support many software.Jun 12 16:15
_Mutex_ive never bought anything but naked PC's,Jun 12 16:15
wispygalaxyand linux supports many hardwareJun 12 16:15
schestowitzmaxstirner1: MS bought them off a year agoJun 12 16:15
_Mutex_in aust its commonJun 12 16:15
schestowitzSo it was a matter of timeJun 12 16:15
schestowitzMicrosoft buys dissent against rivalsJun 12 16:15
schestowitzIt's an abuseJun 12 16:15
schestowitzGroklaw says EU COmmission should reactJun 12 16:15
schestowitz_Mutex_: nakes PC is MS termJun 12 16:16
schestowitzOr MS+Gartner termJun 12 16:16
schestowitzLike TCOJun 12 16:16
_Mutex_I doubt if Grok has the EU's earJun 12 16:16
schestowitzThey use it to daemonise themJun 12 16:16
schestowitzSay "open PC"Jun 12 16:16
wispygalaxythey're acting if something's missing ( a Windows OS)Jun 12 16:16
schestowitznaked PC intentionally sounds badJun 12 16:16
schestowitzThat's why they call it thatJun 12 16:16
_Mutex_Naked pc is a pc with no software on it, we'll thats my definition,Jun 12 16:16
schestowitzWhile calling monopolies things like "intellectual PROPERTY"Jun 12 16:16
schestowitzAnd calling Linux "hobbyist <xx>"Jun 12 16:16
*Eruaran scans his USB flash key for virusesJun 12 16:17
schestowitz_Mutex_: it's not nakedJun 12 16:17
schestowitzIt has metal on itJun 12 16:17
_Mutex_naked is not bad, (depnds who ofcourse),Jun 12 16:17
schestowitzIt's open insideJun 12 16:17
schestowitzFor you to put something of choiceJun 12 16:17
*mib_2f95n5 has quit ("http://www.mibbit.com ajax IRC Client")Jun 12 16:17
schestowitzNakes means something is MISSINGJun 12 16:17
wispygalaxylike playing dress up :PJun 12 16:17
maxstirner1untarnished?Jun 12 16:17
*mib_e1cyu4 (i=44e625da@gateway/web/ajax/mibbit.com/x-cbf2c2aa1e77d3a2) has joined #boycottnovellJun 12 16:17
schestowitzLike, "look!! He's nakes.. someone, give him pants"Jun 12 16:17
schestowitzmaxstirner1: uninfectedJun 12 16:17
mib_e1cyu4Hi everyone!Jun 12 16:18
maxstirner1clean?Jun 12 16:18
wispygalaxyhey there :DJun 12 16:18
maxstirner1:DJun 12 16:18
EruaranhiJun 12 16:18
ld_hw_c1hiJun 12 16:18
schestowitzYeahJun 12 16:18
schestowitzClean PCJun 12 16:18
mib_e1cyu4I am so astounded to actually find people here...Jun 12 16:18
schestowitzWith Windows it becomes dirty PCJun 12 16:18
schestowitzThe HDD is not just 0sJun 12 16:18
Eruaranmy USB key got a virusJun 12 16:18
schestowitzLots of "1" dirt on itJun 12 16:18
wispygalaxywhy, mib_e1?Jun 12 16:18
_Mutex_A PC complete but without the component called the Operating systemJun 12 16:18
mib_e1cyu4Generally, when I check the BN IRC there's nobody postingJun 12 16:18
*mtnd3w (n=mtnd3w@cpe-74-65-216-135.nyc.res.rr.com) has joined #boycottnovellJun 12 16:18
mib_e1cyu4And wispy is here too! Yaay!Jun 12 16:18
wispygalaxyi guess they're sleepingJun 12 16:18
wispygalaxyhey, who are you, mib_e1?  did i meet you before?Jun 12 16:19
mtnd3whelloJun 12 16:19
schestowitzWho's mib_e1cyu4 Jun 12 16:19
mib_e1cyu4we're friends on diggJun 12 16:19
wispygalaxyhey mtnd3wJun 12 16:19
_Mutex_it was mega quite earlier,  until I stuck my 10c worth in LOLJun 12 16:19
schestowitzAh, OK :-)Jun 12 16:19
wispygalaxywhat's your usernameJun 12 16:19
wispygalaxyon diggJun 12 16:19
mib_e1cyu4sorry to be anon, I'm wallclimberJun 12 16:19
EruaranThere's a new version of "Virut" that rips through Windows systems like a swarm of locustsJun 12 16:19
wispygalaxyohhhhh hi!Jun 12 16:19
schestowitzHa! :-)Jun 12 16:19
*schestowitz likes wallclimberJun 12 16:19
wispygalaxyme tooJun 12 16:19
EruaranMaybe I should keep the little bugger somewhere and give it to someone who bugs meJun 12 16:20
schestowitzAre you still on Digg?Jun 12 16:20
mib_e1cyu4how fun to see nice folks here, so often lately when i read the log files it's full of trolls...ickJun 12 16:20
wispygalaxyi've been drifting away from diggJun 12 16:20
ld_hw_c1haha.you are jaking.ahhaJun 12 16:20
wispygalaxytrolls want attentionJun 12 16:20
schestowitzmib_e1cyu4: yes, it was deliberateJun 12 16:20
schestowitzThey try to soil itJun 12 16:20
_Mutex_yea, there is just me as duty troll today !!!Jun 12 16:20
wispygalaxythey are hatersJun 12 16:20
schestowitzLike they tried with GLJun 12 16:20
mib_e1cyu4I peruse digg about once a day.  hate to just leave it to the trolls, i love annoying themJun 12 16:20
schestowitzAnf they flood the channelJun 12 16:20
wispygalaxywith irrelevant crapJun 12 16:21
schestowitzmib_e1cyu4: I will carry on with Comes soon.Jun 12 16:21
schestowitzI have some great things coming, just not as much time as I had hopedJun 12 16:21
wispygalaxyi read COLA more often these daysJun 12 16:21
wispygalaxyschestowitz has a lot of good stuff on thereJun 12 16:21
_Mutex_I drink cola sometimesJun 12 16:22
schestowitzKool-Aid.Jun 12 16:22
wispygalaxycomp.os.linux.advocacyJun 12 16:22
_Mutex_yeaJun 12 16:22
mib_e1cyu4Mutex, you're actually pretty tame for a trollJun 12 16:22
EruaranI think I should stop drinking cokeJun 12 16:22
wispygalaxyi haven't had kool-aid since elementary schoolJun 12 16:22
maxstirner1the microsoft of soft drinks :DJun 12 16:22
EruarankillercokeJun 12 16:22
wispygalaxyi used to be a diet coke fan, now i like waterJun 12 16:22
_Mutex_I know, im still learning :) trouble is I like FOSS Alot,  I just dont have a pathology against MS, give me time :)Jun 12 16:23
schestowitz"It's [Windows is] an operating system, not a religion." --Ted Waite, then CEO of Gateway.Jun 12 16:23
mtnd3whas anyone read the latest Jo Shield rant: "A Guest Essay In Favor of Mono" http://blog.linuxtoday.com/blog/2009/06/why-mono-is-des.htmlJun 12 16:23
wispygalaxyyes, diet coke can give you cancer :(Jun 12 16:23
schestowitz "Linux is a cult that captures the best-and-brightest kids." --Jim Gray (Microsoft Research)Jun 12 16:23
schestowitzHe died at seas 2 years agoJun 12 16:23
MinceRhe won't be missedJun 12 16:23
_Mutex_Yes, I read it yesterday, BN gets a whipping in itJun 12 16:23
mtnd3wit's hilarious that this is suppose to sound like a voice of reasonJun 12 16:23
schestowitzwispygalaxy: so it's trueJun 12 16:23
schestowitzDiet coke makes you thinJun 12 16:24
MinceRlolJun 12 16:24
schestowitzLike in that South park episide on aidesJun 12 16:24
wispygalaxyi'm already slim, i don't even diet!Jun 12 16:24
mtnd3w_Mutex_ it reads more like fanboy vomitJun 12 16:24
EruaranT h i n n n n n n n e r r r rJun 12 16:24
wispygalaxyit's in the genes :PJun 12 16:24
mib_e1cyu4This week I will be helping a young man that teaches music at a private schoolJun 12 16:24
schestowitzmtnd3w: what voice of reasonJun 12 16:24
schestowitzhe told me"fuck you"Jun 12 16:24
mtnd3wlolJun 12 16:24
wispygalaxyhey!Jun 12 16:24
mib_e1cyu4he found some old win98 computers and wants to set them up to play musicJun 12 16:25
wispygalaxyhow rude of himJun 12 16:25
ld_hw_c1lolJun 12 16:25
*schestowitz up to almost 100kgJun 12 16:25
EruaranWhy do all these Mono pusher guys have girls names ?Jun 12 16:25
wispygalaxyit's weird lolJun 12 16:25
mtnd3wschestowitz: he's showing his colorsJun 12 16:25
schestowitzEruaran: who else?Jun 12 16:25
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[astralknight] Antitrust probe of Microsoft's abuse of notebook buyers: http://digg.com/d1te9z?tJun 12 16:25
schestowitzJo, another Joseph... who else?Jun 12 16:25
schestowitzNat?Jun 12 16:25
mib_e1cyu4he doesn't want to use win98 and i mentioned that i could probably find a system for those old computersJun 12 16:25
schestowitzNatrosoftJun 12 16:25
EruaranOh so its JosephJun 12 16:26
schestowitzFriedman used to work for MSJun 12 16:26
_Mutex_Im 63Kg of unleashed fighting fury,  a tighly wound sprind ready to strike at any time, im so well trained I act before I think !! :)Jun 12 16:26
EruaranJo is usually feminine and Joe masculineJun 12 16:26
schestowitzbrb phoneJun 12 16:26
mib_e1cyu4but i'm a little worried, i haven't had much success with installing linux on really old hardwareJun 12 16:26
maxstirner1how old is really old?Jun 12 16:26
maxstirner1depends on the type of lxJun 12 16:26
wispygalaxytry Damn Small Linux or siduxJun 12 16:27
mib_e1cyu4maxsrirner1: If they run win98 i'd guess maybe 10 years old or moreJun 12 16:27
maxstirner1...or xubuntu?Jun 12 16:27
maxstirner1DSL isnt updated very oftenJun 12 16:27
_Mutex_RH 7.2 about that vintageJun 12 16:27
maxstirner1iircJun 12 16:27
wispygalaxyoh yeah, forgot about xubuntuJun 12 16:28
wispygalaxyxfce distros are goodJun 12 16:28
schestowitz"Many of those who advertise themselves as anti-Mono are, quite frankly, frightening. Calling for the deaths of Microsoft employees (see comments on Boycott Novell).."Jun 12 16:28
schestowitzThey love blaming Mono opposition on usJun 12 16:28
wispygalaxywhere are the sources for their claimsJun 12 16:28
schestowitzLook at these liesJun 12 16:28
schestowitzwispygalaxy: it's BULLJun 12 16:29
mib_e1cyu4i'll try xubuntu, i've tried DSL and Puppy before on other old systems, with varying degrees of success, butJun 12 16:29
wispygalaxyi know, roy :(Jun 12 16:29
benJImanThere is no evidence of boycottnovell being anti-mono, it's all lies!Jun 12 16:29
maxstirner1ive run xubuntu on pre-2K laptopsJun 12 16:29
wispygalaxythat's my pointJun 12 16:29
schestowitzMaybe some linusux crrzy planted some such stuffJun 12 16:29
schestowitzThat's how thety workJun 12 16:29
schestowitzPlant a commentJun 12 16:29
schestowitzThen make allegatioinJun 12 16:29
mib_e1cyu4those were my own experiments, this will be in FRONT of someone new to linux, so i'd really like it to go wellJun 12 16:29
schestowitzAnd now they try to describe as as some sort of murderersJun 12 16:29
schestowitzAmazingJun 12 16:29
wispygalaxydesperate of themJun 12 16:30
wispygalaxythey have to resort to childish tacticsJun 12 16:30
maxstirner1there's definitely a lot of guerrilla marketing going on these days, and MS is a veeeeeery large company paying plenty of other marketing companiesJun 12 16:30
maxstirner1if i were @ MS, i'd get all employees to post a couple of comments every day ;)Jun 12 16:30
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[astralknight] Review: System 76 Pangolin Performance Linux laptop PC: http://digg.com/d1teBg?tJun 12 16:30
maxstirner1since they seem to have given up actually developing softwareJun 12 16:30
wispygalaxyand started attacking FOSSJun 12 16:31
schestowitzWhat a childish attack on usJun 12 16:31
mib_e1cyu4roy, when you're ready to do more comes vs ms, mention it here and i'll set aside timeJun 12 16:31
schestowitzSome crazy Fink guys harasses some employeesJun 12 16:31
schestowitzAnd he LINKS to BNJun 12 16:31
schestowitzSo now it's OUR faultJun 12 16:31
schestowitzWhat a bunch of low-lifesJun 12 16:31
_Mutex_wasnt comes Vs Ms settled ?Jun 12 16:31
schestowitzI'll need to post clarifiacationsJun 12 16:31
wispygalaxythey know you're a threat, roy.  they'll do anythingJun 12 16:31
mib_e1cyu4christie is gone for a while, she had some things to take care ofJun 12 16:32
schestowitzmib_e1cyu4:  thanksJun 12 16:32
schestowitzI'll need to rebut those attacksJun 12 16:32
schestowitzThat Jo guy is a kidJun 12 16:32
mib_e1cyu4actually i don't know if she'll be back, she's recently engaged, they may be movingJun 12 16:33
mib_e1cyu4out of state. i'm going to miss her if she movesJun 12 16:33
schestowitz"...Calling for the deaths of Microsoft employees (see comments on Boycott Novell)..."Jun 12 16:33
schestowitzNo linkJun 12 16:33
schestowitz"See comments...Jun 12 16:33
schestowitzSure, see commentsJun 12 16:33
schestowitzWhich one among 20,000 comments?Jun 12 16:33
schestowitzAnd a lot more in IRC logs with anonymous trolls?Jun 12 16:34
mib_e1cyu4i need to figure out how to change my nick name, I don't like being a "Mib"Jun 12 16:34
wispygalaxythey want to lead people into a wild goose chaseJun 12 16:34
schestowitzmib_e1cyu4:  type /nick wallclimberJun 12 16:34
_Mutex_thype /nice ima heloJun 12 16:34
_Mutex_what he saidJun 12 16:34
mib_e1cyu4those nasty trolls that visit here from that other nasty website are disgustingJun 12 16:34
wispygalaxythey want attentionJun 12 16:35
_Mutex_they want hits on their site too,Jun 12 16:35
wispygalaxyof courseJun 12 16:36
mib_e1cyu4it bothers me that they actually get attention, not sure why so many people actually spend so much time discussing thingsJun 12 16:37
mib_e1cyu4when the trolls refuse to listen, they just repeat things over and over...Jun 12 16:37
mib_e1cyu4why talk to them at all?Jun 12 16:37
wispygalaxythey are trolling users hereJun 12 16:37
schestowitzFink replies:Jun 12 16:37
schestowitz"Hi Roy,Jun 12 16:37
schestowitzI'm sorry. it just makes me so mad when people are pro-MONO. also itJun 12 16:37
schestowitzwas not me who tried to get david fired so its unfair that they areJun 12 16:37
schestowitzpinning it on me.Jun 12 16:37
schestowitz"Jun 12 16:37
wispygalaxyfink?Jun 12 16:38
schestowitzSome trollJun 12 16:38
schestowitzAnnoying Ubuntu folksJun 12 16:38
wispygalaxyokJun 12 16:38
schestowitzAnd people attribute this to us/meJun 12 16:38
schestowitzLet me do q quick postJun 12 16:38
mib_e1cyu4ack...phone's ringing, dog's barking, time to start workJun 12 16:38
wispygalaxyi'm free todayJun 12 16:38
mib_e1cyu4it was great seeing you all here today, must do this again soonJun 12 16:38
wispygalaxybye wallclimber!Jun 12 16:39
mib_e1cyu4bye! :o)Jun 12 16:39
wispygalaxy:DJun 12 16:39
mib_e1cyu4wait, i put the wrong smiley... hehJun 12 16:39
*mib_e1cyu4 has quit ("http://www.mibbit.com ajax IRC Client")Jun 12 16:39
wispygalaxyso what are you up to today, roy?Jun 12 16:40
Ngschestowitz: perhaps if your site was a little more balanced you might not get lumped in with other hysterical types ;)Jun 12 16:41
wispygalaxyi'm going out to dinner later today with my sisters and then plan to see a movie (The Hangover)Jun 12 16:41
wispygalaxywe need vocal people to speak out against injustice!Jun 12 16:42
_Mutex_and balance and fairness :)Jun 12 16:42
popey16:50:00 <@schestowitz> Which one among 20,000 comments?Jun 12 16:42
_Mutex_with facts preferably LOLJun 12 16:42
popeyhttp://boycottnovell.com/2008/09/25/irc-log-24092008-1/Jun 12 16:42
popey"MinceR  (they should be killed with fire)"Jun 12 16:42
_Mutex_did y ou ask jo ?Jun 12 16:43
wispygalaxybrbJun 12 16:43
MinceRpopey: come on, tell us how and why the saints who work for m$ should be defendedJun 12 16:43
ld_hw_c1...:)Jun 12 16:44
*_Goblin (n=goblin@cpc2-pool2-0-0-cust146.sotn.cable.ntl.com) has joined #boycottnovellJun 12 16:44
popeyMinceR: you believe people should be put to death for their work?Jun 12 16:44
MinceRnot for their workJun 12 16:44
NgMinceR: don't say "m$", it makes you sound like you're 14Jun 12 16:44
MinceRbut work is not what they didJun 12 16:44
neighborleeNg, you might mean, like the types that come to BN filled with anger and venom  for any opinion other than mono is great ?,,that 'type' ? ;))Jun 12 16:44
MinceRNg: should i say "Glorious Heavenly Empire of Microsoft" instead?Jun 12 16:44
_Goblinwhy does M$ make him sound 14?Jun 12 16:44
neighborlee_Goblin, it doesn't..its just a FUD reply, trying to demean mono detractorsJun 12 16:45
MinceRbecause the m$ trolls can't stand their favorite empire being mockedJun 12 16:45
popey_Goblin: it's a somewhat infantile stab at a corporation.Jun 12 16:45
neighborleeMinceR, exactlyJun 12 16:45
_Goblin;) yeah....been alot of that..Jun 12 16:45
_Mutex_like any person, business or whatever, nothing wrong with using the truth and facts to yoru advantage.Jun 12 16:45
NgMinceR: you could just say "Microsoft"Jun 12 16:45
popeywhy not call them Microsoft, that is after all their name.Jun 12 16:45
MinceRmost of them of course don't profit from what m$ does, but they still take offense at thisJun 12 16:45
MinceRNg: that would be much too dignified for such a criminal organization.Jun 12 16:45
_Mutex_as long as you can support your statements, and they are true its greatJun 12 16:45
maxstirner1i prefer microtoss actually :DJun 12 16:45
_Mutex_if its not,, its FUDJun 12 16:45
_Goblinwhy, by definition is "M$" childish or in your words infantile?Jun 12 16:45
neighborleeNg, that would tell 1/5th of the truth though..that would there fore be a form of FUD ;)Jun 12 16:45
NgI work for money, I quite like money, but I don't expect to be called Ng$Jun 12 16:46
popeyI dont take offence at "M$" "Micro$oft" or whatever, I just think it makes _your_ argument less valid.Jun 12 16:46
MinceRNg: would you do anything and everything for money?Jun 12 16:46
MinceRNg: would you deprive other people of their livelyhood just to make a little bit more money?Jun 12 16:46
MinceRpopey: actually it doesn't, it just makes you want less to consider my argumentJun 12 16:46
_Mutex_I tend to shut off when I see m$ too, its old and its purileJun 12 16:46
MinceRpopey: just like the gist of my argument makes you want less to consider it.Jun 12 16:47
popeyMinceR: not really, i still consider the argument of courseJun 12 16:47
*tacone has quit (Remote closed the connection)Jun 12 16:47
neighborleepopey, but that is what M$ does..and they do it to the exclusion of principles..Jun 12 16:47
popeyMinceR: please dont judge meJun 12 16:47
MinceR_Mutex_: you're just another m$ troll, so it really isn't much of a surprise.Jun 12 16:47
neighborleepopey, sorry if you missed the memo ;)Jun 12 16:47
_Mutex_mabey, does not change what it is,Jun 12 16:47
_Goblinby your definition.Jun 12 16:47
MinceRpeople come around knowing _nothing_ about what m$ did and still is doing and say "but it's just a company/business!"Jun 12 16:47
popeyI am not a fan of microsoft, but I dont feel the need to lower myself to call them namesJun 12 16:47
Ngneighborlee: Microsoft is a company, they're required to maximise shareholder value. whining about them playing hardball is pointless imho. We can beat them with superior technology, not superior whiningJun 12 16:48
MinceR"it's just business" is no excuse for what they did and still are doing.Jun 12 16:48
_GoblinI really hope you dont visit other chat rooms if you think M$ is infantile...Jun 12 16:48
neighborleeNg, its not hardball..its unprincipledJun 12 16:48
MinceRpeople shouldn't be allowed to commit such crimes against society.Jun 12 16:48
Ngneighborlee: I suggest you get into politics and attempt to reform corporate law thenJun 12 16:48
popey_Goblin: I'm in around 60 odd irc channels, "M$" is not going to offend me :)Jun 12 16:48
maxstirner1the business model is archaic.. won't last much longer. if it weren't for anti-competitive practices they would have even survived the first DOS-clones int he 80sJun 12 16:48
MinceRNg: superior technology isn't enoughJun 12 16:48
_Goblintat comment was aimed at Ng.Jun 12 16:49
MinceRNg: they've done plenty to prevent fair competition.Jun 12 16:49
_Mutex_calling names is regarded as childish,  it just isJun 12 16:49
_Goblin*thatJun 12 16:49
NgMinceR: perhaps you should consider a career in human rights, there are *far* worse crimes against society than making a popular operating system and bundling a browser with itJun 12 16:49
_GoblinNg, Microsoft is not a person.....Jun 12 16:49
MinceRNg: that doesn't turn m$ into saints.Jun 12 16:49
neighborleeNg, I am into politics already..and there is one way to do it which is far more 'principled'..and the other way which is the republican way...<far right way>Jun 12 16:49
MinceRNg: and a career in IT is fine with me, thank-you-very-much.Jun 12 16:49
MinceRNg: as long as i'm not kept out of business by the likes of m$, of course.Jun 12 16:49
Ngso you guys are basically just interested in complaining about Microsoft's success, instead of doing something about being better?Jun 12 16:50
_Mutex_Yes, Enron comes to mind !!Jun 12 16:50
_Goblinliar.Jun 12 16:50
_Mutex_or sub-prime mortgage lenders,Jun 12 16:50
MinceRNg: well, i do something about being better. it's just not all we need to do.Jun 12 16:50
_Mutex_or ponsie schemesJun 12 16:50
_Goblinand even if that is true, whats your excuse for being here Ng?Jun 12 16:50
_Mutex_or exon in bopalJun 12 16:50
Ng_Goblin: curiosityJun 12 16:50
_Goblinthats even worse then.Jun 12 16:50
neighborleeNg, fudis jot welcome here..again, I guess you missed the ,memo ??Jun 12 16:50
MinceRNg: if you'd look beyond the m$ propaganda, you'd see that people have made far better products in their free time for fun than m$ has ever managed to cobble together.Jun 12 16:51
NgMinceR: I wouldn't know, I don't run any Microsoft softwareJun 12 16:51
MinceRNg: hm, trolls often quote "curiousity" as their reason to be around.Jun 12 16:51
neighborleeNg, put forth arguements,,,fine with can handle that all day.FUD..not welcome,,makes you look pitifulJun 12 16:51
MinceRs/ou/o/Jun 12 16:51
_Goblinits also a defence in court for more dubious activities aswell.Jun 12 16:51
neighborleeNg, makes you look..unprincipled.Jun 12 16:51
Ngneighborlee: where have I spread any Fear, Uncertainty or Doubt in here?Jun 12 16:52
_Goblinthat and the "research" excuse.Jun 12 16:52
Ngneighborlee: all I said was that whining about Microsoft and calling them "m$" was pointlessJun 12 16:52
neighborleeNg, by every remark you've made so farJun 12 16:52
MinceRNg: and you implied that their products were superior.Jun 12 16:52
NgMinceR: I absolutely did no such thingJun 12 16:52
MinceRNg: and that that's the sole reason for their success.Jun 12 16:52
NgI said their products were successfulJun 12 16:52
neighborleeNg, you dont spread arguement and intrigue,. you just spread < or try to, but we wont let you in here> fud and fear and loatheJun 12 16:52
Ngnot superiodJun 12 16:52
_GoblinNg, I put it to you that your goal is to bait us into an inappropriate discussion that will be quoted elsewhere to discredit....thats why there are so many new handles here...Jun 12 16:53
neighborleeNg, so if you come in here, be prepared for the truth squadJun 12 16:53
Ngneighborlee: I don't think you understand what FUD meansJun 12 16:53
MinceRNg: and you also said that we should merely make superior products (as if we weren't already) to defat them.Jun 12 16:53
MinceRs/fat/feat/Jun 12 16:53
neighborleeNg, and I dont think you understand princplesJun 12 16:53
NgMinceR: some of the free software world is superior, other parts aren'tJun 12 16:53
_Mutex_the best person to discredit someone is themselves.Jun 12 16:53
Ngneighborlee: you are wrong :)Jun 12 16:53
MinceRwow, there's bad free software too?Jun 12 16:53
MinceRlet's all just go back to m$ then!Jun 12 16:53
_Mutex_something you cant do if you stick with factsJun 12 16:53
MinceRoh, waitJun 12 16:53
NgMinceR: I didn't say thatJun 12 16:53
_GoblinLinxxx.xxx tried it and failed....but it doesnt matter since those people will change handles at a drop of a hat.Jun 12 16:54
neighborleeNg, and you are an alien..I can prove that about as good as you , right now can prove Im wrong o_0Jun 12 16:54
*popey has met Ng and can confirm he is somewhat less "alien" than mostJun 12 16:54
neighborleeNg, spreading lies and fud just because they are cute and talking points, doesn't make them hold up to scutiny ;0Jun 12 16:54
neighborleescrutiny o-0Jun 12 16:55
Ngneighborlee: so because I don't join you in condemning everything about a particular company you don't like, I'm spreading lies and fud?Jun 12 16:55
NgI'm in this game to win by being betterJun 12 16:55
neighborleepopey, thank you for verification of my worst fearsJun 12 16:55
Ngwhere "this game" == Free SoftwareJun 12 16:55
MinceRNg: you were calling us names because we did.Jun 12 16:55
_GoblinIm sorry to hear that Ng.Jun 12 16:55
MinceRor maybe only popey did. i don't remember.Jun 12 16:55
neighborleeNg, who said you had to JOIN us in condemnatioin ?Jun 12 16:55
neighborleeNg, those are your words, not oursJun 12 16:56
NgMinceR: I didn't call you names, I suggested that your choice of language made you sound youngJun 12 16:56
popeyMinceR: [citation needed]Jun 12 16:56
Ngneighborlee: well I don't seem to be able to disagree with you without being accused of spreading lies and fudJun 12 16:56
MinceRpopey: [[this buffer]]Jun 12 16:56
_Mutex_I wan tto help your condemnation, by asking you to back them up with,,,,, um,,,,, factsJun 12 16:56
MinceRNg: that's not what you said.Jun 12 16:56
popeyMinceR: would you like me quote myself?Jun 12 16:56
MinceRNg: unless "young" and "infantile" mean the same thing.Jun 12 16:56
NgMinceR: I said that saying "m$" makes you sound 14Jun 12 16:56
popeyMinceR: I said it sounds infantileJun 12 16:57
mtnd3ware those trolls back again, i hear talk of age...Jun 12 16:57
MinceRi see.Jun 12 16:57
maxstirner1round and round! in circlesJun 12 16:57
_GoblinNg, I don't think you are spreading FUD...you have to be clever to do that...Jun 12 16:57
MinceRwell, i didn't know people stopped being "young" at age 15.Jun 12 16:57
popeymeowJun 12 16:57
MinceRbut now i know better.Jun 12 16:57
maxstirner1i know what schestowitz meant by "trolls flooding channel"Jun 12 16:57
maxstirner1nowJun 12 16:57
mtnd3whello trollsJun 12 16:57
mtnd3whow are you todayJun 12 16:57
_Goblinthese logs are always good for backing up Roys posts.Jun 12 16:57
MinceRmtnd3w: give them a break. they have no arguments so they have to go for ad hominem.Jun 12 16:57
neighborleeNg, so you mean..the use of abusive language by the mono supporters on BN, is far more palletable , than other forms of communication..I hope your not suggesting thatJun 12 16:57
_GoblinMicrosoft Watch used to be a good place too, they were textbook there.Jun 12 16:58
Ngneighborlee: where did I even remotely suggest that?!Jun 12 16:58
popeyMinceR: nobody has attacked you, I merely pointed out a simple thing, that calling Microsoft "M$" does nothing for the causeJun 12 16:58
neighborleeNg, I hope you stand tall with us here today, condeming those kinds of hate speechJun 12 16:58
mtnd3wMinceR: how old is an average troll, 100 200?Jun 12 16:58
popeyI have not made any points about BN, mono or any other pointsJun 12 16:58
MinceRpopey: you called me names. in many places that would be considered an attack.Jun 12 16:58
popeyMinceR: [citation needed]Jun 12 16:58
maxstirner1mtnd3w: :DJun 12 16:58
MinceRmtnd3w: dunno -- their mental age can't be too highJun 12 16:58
MinceRpopey: once again, [[this buffer]]Jun 12 16:58
popeyMinceR: you can't be bothered to back up your attack on me? :(Jun 12 16:59
MinceRpopey: when did i attack you?Jun 12 16:59
Ngneighborlee: I think the internet is full of idiots on comments threads and they are best ignored. arguing and condemning them just encourages them. There are more important discussions to be hadJun 12 16:59
popeyby saying I called you names, which I did notJun 12 16:59
MinceRNg: like the one we're having? :>Jun 12 16:59
_Goblinbut not here eh Ng?  Apparently you are "curious"Jun 12 16:59
popeyhow about we move on to more constructive discussion?Jun 12 16:59
MinceR180125 < popey> _Goblin: it's a somewhat infantile stab at a corporation.Jun 12 16:59
MinceRwell, you started the destructive discussion, perhaps you could change it too.Jun 12 17:00
Ng_Goblin: Iam curious, I'm curious about the thinking behind the boycottnovell site/project/whateverJun 12 17:00
popeyMinceR: that applies to anyone who says "M$", not you specifically.Jun 12 17:00
neighborleeNg, It's important to show people for that which they represent, and in the case of hate speech that too must be confronted..so I presume by your last remark that you feel the 'hate speech' on BN is unacceptable ?Jun 12 17:00
_Mutex_im sure name calling and personal insults helps clear up the argument !!! :)Jun 12 17:00
neighborleeNg, so you dont condone their hate filled remarks ?Jun 12 17:00
Ngneighborlee: I haven't read all the comments, I came into this from reading a thread on ubuntu-devel-discuss which completely breached the ubuntu community's code of conduct, on both sides of the argumentJun 12 17:00
popey(or indeed _Goblin)Jun 12 17:01
maxstirner1"The merits of the software itself are irrelevant. Really. It's the stench of Microsoft that cannot be cleansed."Jun 12 17:01
Ngand I was quite unhappy about thatJun 12 17:01
EruaranNovell employees seem to be less well informed than the guy at the local computer storeJun 12 17:01
MinceRpopey: still, i think that they more than deserve to be called m$, micro$oft, MICROS~1 and the like.Jun 12 17:01
mtnd3wNg you can't comprehend BoycottNovell, it's large gathering of people from all over the globeJun 12 17:01
popeyMinceR: ok, we'll agree to disagree then :)Jun 12 17:01
MinceRpopey: if they want the industry to be courteous to them, they could start making things happen by not screwing the industry every minute.Jun 12 17:01
maxstirner1MinceR:  MICROS~1 :D:D never seen that beforeJun 12 17:01
neighborleeNg, you can read almost any thread at BN and find alot of hate coming from mono supporters..take a peekand let us know what you think .Jun 12 17:01
MinceRuntil then we'll call them the criminals they are.Jun 12 17:01
mtnd3wNg there are thousands behind BoycottNovell, it's a force greater than anythingJun 12 17:02
popeyneighborlee: there's a lot of hate on both sides to be fair :(Jun 12 17:02
Ngneighborlee: frankly, I've seen unpleasantness from both sides of the argumentJun 12 17:02
neighborleepopey, wrongJun 12 17:02
neighborleepopey,  as I say check out BN threads..you cant miss the venomJun 12 17:02
popeyi have seen themJun 12 17:02
MinceRdunno, i hate m$ a lotJun 12 17:02
neighborleewell then you know what im referring toJun 12 17:02
popeydon't forgive me for a newbie, I've seen a lot of BNJun 12 17:02
MinceRthey've set technology back by a lot.Jun 12 17:02
_Mutex_wow, can I quote that " a force greater than ANYTHING" geez,, awesome :)Jun 12 17:03
neighborleepopey, then stop denying the hate speechJun 12 17:03
MinceRand they've caused a lot of loss to many people.Jun 12 17:03
popeyI didnt!Jun 12 17:03
neighborleepopey, and I hope you condemn  itJun 12 17:03
popeyI said there was hate on _both_ sides!Jun 12 17:03
neighborleetehre is notJun 12 17:03
neighborleethereJun 12 17:03
MinceRall in the name of "business"^W greedJun 12 17:03
popeywell, we agree to disagree then neighborleeJun 12 17:03
neighborleepopey, im talkingabout pure hate..words of hate..its only from mono supportersJun 12 17:03
popeyi have seen some pretty nasty things said on both sidesJun 12 17:03
neighborleenotJun 12 17:03
EruaranI'd like to see the end of M$ and the end of x86Jun 12 17:03
neighborleepopey, that indeed would be called FUDJun 12 17:04
popeyEruaran: yay back to the 68000! :)Jun 12 17:04
NgI'm really quite surprised, I've never been attacked quite so quickly as when I spoke up just now. I realise you guys are in the middle of a pretty heated debate atm, but it wasn't a particularly nice way to treat a new-comer. You pretty much just assumed I was here to troll you when I slightly disagreed :/Jun 12 17:04
popeyi often wonder what it would have been like if the pc used the motorola chips rather than intelJun 12 17:04
Eruaran?Jun 12 17:04
popeyEruaran: your end of the x86 comment, i was taking it too far :)Jun 12 17:04
popey(for amusement, not digs)Jun 12 17:04
EruaranI wouldn't touch a Motorola processorJun 12 17:05
maxstirner1then motorola and MICROS~1 would have teamed up producing less efficient operating systems and more efficient processors for 2 decadesJun 12 17:05
EruaranMy mobile phone is bad enoughJun 12 17:05
_Goblingood effort ngJun 12 17:05
popeywell not _now_ Eruaran, I meant ~ 15 years agoJun 12 17:05
neighborleeNg, you assume many things it seems.now your playing the poor me , attack victim, just like many before you..you cry wolf, forgetting the bites you INFlicted before hand..doens't work friend..Jun 12 17:05
_Mutex_It was really close, between the Z80,8080,6800(PET) and INTELJun 12 17:05
*wispygalaxy has quit ("using sirc version 2.211+KSIRC/1.3.12")Jun 12 17:05
popey_Mutex_: 8080 _is_ intelJun 12 17:06
MinceRi'd rather use RISC processors than x86 or 68xxxJun 12 17:06
_Mutex_yes, your rightJun 12 17:06
popeyprogramming the z80 was funJun 12 17:06
_Mutex_z80 was not, and 6800 was motorola i thinkJun 12 17:06
Ngneighborlee: I'm not playing "the poor me", I've been on IRC for 16 years now, there's nothing I can't take, but I think there is a community management issue here - both sides of this argument need to cool down and develop more mature attitudes and responses, or it's going to be completely ignored and the technologists will continue to do whatever they feel is bestJun 12 17:06
_Mutex_z80 was zilogJun 12 17:06
popeyz80 was zilogJun 12 17:06
popey:)Jun 12 17:06
popeysnapJun 12 17:06
_Mutex_beat youJun 12 17:06
MinceR(if memory/cache bandwidth is an issue, i prefer ARM-style compression to CISC)Jun 12 17:06
popey_just_Jun 12 17:06
_Mutex_2650 was sygneticsJun 12 17:07
neighborleeNg, there is nothing to cool down overJun 12 17:07
_Mutex_circa, 1976Jun 12 17:07
MinceRNg: the evil side won't cool down and won't stop because they want m$ to succeedJun 12 17:07
neighborleeNg,M$ is as indicated a money making machine who thinnks 'linux is a cancer'...did you miss that memo ?Jun 12 17:07
EruaranMaybe we could all have been using RISC since the 90's (at least) if it weren't for Wintel...Jun 12 17:07
MinceRNg: and if m$ succeeds, the industry diesJun 12 17:07
MinceRNg: also, many of them receive funding from m$Jun 12 17:07
_Goblinthanks for the advice NG, 16 years?  and that has a meaning because....?Jun 12 17:07
MinceR(also, if the industry dies, it throws science and technology into the dark ages)Jun 12 17:08
_Mutex_8088 was the early x86 I think from intelJun 12 17:08
NgMinceR: the evil side? come on dude, you can't say stuff like that, listen to neighborlee about hate speech and treat people with some respectJun 12 17:08
neighborleeNg, and evryone for mono, does their level best <ubuntu forums are amoung the worst offenders> to stop the conversation, to continue to infest ubuntu with mono diseaseJun 12 17:08
EruaranWe are in the dark ages now . . .Jun 12 17:08
_Mutex_IF MS succeeds ??Jun 12 17:08
_Mutex_IFJun 12 17:08
MinceRNg: i'll treat people with respect as long as they deserve respect.Jun 12 17:08
MinceRno longer.Jun 12 17:08
mtnd3wNg 16 years of IRC, thats some experience. The issue is Mono evangelicals are batshit crazy about promoting Mono. They'll DDoS and troll every corner of the internet for Mono.Jun 12 17:08
Ngmtnd3w: so far I've seen that behaviour from *some* people on both sides of the argumentJun 12 17:09
_GoblinNg, I was around way before that....does that make me better than you?Jun 12 17:09
popeymtnd3w: some are just defending their position, not attacking at all.Jun 12 17:09
mtnd3wNg you can be specific.Jun 12 17:09
neighborleeNg, ah isee..so now you really do undestand hate speech, when its convenient ?Jun 12 17:09
Ngmtnd3w: this isn't a religious war, it's a technical and legal debate.Jun 12 17:09
_Mutex_I prefer to call mono what it is,,, a chunk of GPL'd code, so whats wrong with GPL'd code ????  I thought GPL = GOODJun 12 17:09
MinceRfor m$ it seems to be a religious warJun 12 17:09
Ngneighborlee: I understood it perfectly well before and I said to you that I've seen unpleasant behaviour from all kinds of peopleJun 12 17:09
mtnd3wNg Mono fans sure do make it a religious war.Jun 12 17:09
neighborleeNg, so now that you comprehend it.you condemn those on BN for using words like F*** and etc. ??Jun 12 17:09
MinceRthey call it "war" and "jihad"Jun 12 17:09
_Mutex_NonGPL = EvilJun 12 17:09
_Goblinfrom what I've seen the pro-MS argument provides little IT basis...Its mostly insults.Jun 12 17:10
maxstirner1GPL3 please!Jun 12 17:10
MinceRlook at their internal memosJun 12 17:10
MinceR_Mutex_: fail.Jun 12 17:10
_Goblinand if you want proof, check out MS watch or even my site.Jun 12 17:10
Ngneighborlee: if you really want me to use the exact words "I condemn it", then fine, I do. My chosen words would be different, but whatever. People who resort to that on discussion threads anywhere are idiots. happy now? :)Jun 12 17:10
_Mutex_WEll, GPL is what the Linux kernel is, its GPLv2, so if software is GPLv2 is it by definition evil ?Jun 12 17:10
Ngmtnd3w: as I said, I see that behaviour from *some* people on both sidesJun 12 17:10
MinceR_Mutex_: wrong againJun 12 17:11
_Mutex_well set my rightJun 12 17:11
neighborleeNg, thank you..truth is liberating ;)Jun 12 17:11
maxstirner1no but the additional patent protection in gpl3 would make it perfect for a questionable project like monoJun 12 17:11
MinceR_Mutex_: the .net/mono issue is a patent trap. m$ found a way around the language in GPLv2 that would protect against making software non-free via sw patents.Jun 12 17:11
MinceR_Mutex_: that's why GPLv3 was needed.Jun 12 17:11
_Mutex_Mono is GPL, thats abvious, so is GPL bad ? NO, so is mono bad,, well its GPL so by definition its FOSS, and therefore by definition its good rightJun 12 17:11
neighborleeNg, idiots not so much..working for non =-gpl software and blinded by that reality..very likely ;)Jun 12 17:11
_Mutex_Sorry, but if thats the case why is the flagship of GPL (linux kernel) under GPLv2 ??Jun 12 17:12
MinceR_Mutex_: GPLv2 is a tool that can protect the freedom of a project. GPLv3 is more effectiveJun 12 17:12
Ngneighborlee: out of interest, would you say the same thing about the authors of the linux kernel's VFAT driver?Jun 12 17:12
MinceR_Mutex_: that's no secret either.Jun 12 17:12
mtnd3wNg You really think that all the blogs out there are from BoycottNovell or related to them?Jun 12 17:12
_Mutex_So is all GPLv2 code evil ?Jun 12 17:12
mtnd3wNg There are so many individuals who write their own blog.Jun 12 17:12
maxstirner1why not make a petition to have mono on gplv3? i'm sure that would help your case.. since its soooooo free and no patent risk and allJun 12 17:12
Ngneighborlee: (their code is so legally questionable that at least one company has already been sued over it)Jun 12 17:12
Ngmtnd3w: did I say I think that?Jun 12 17:12
EruaranM$ gets companies to sign nondisclosure agreements because the nature of the agreement violates the GPLJun 12 17:13
MinceR_Mutex_: no it's not. it's just inadequately protected.Jun 12 17:13
_GoblinI dont think he does, but that wont stop him implying it...eh Ng?Jun 12 17:13
MinceR_Mutex_: and in the case of the .net/mono patent trap, this lack of protection is exploitedJun 12 17:13
neighborleeNg, its obvious in today woirld..that using anything M$ is not only questionable, but layden with RISKJun 12 17:13
neighborleeNg, move on ;)Jun 12 17:13
_Mutex_then they would not be able to license Mono under GPL as it would violate the license,  oh wait,, it IS GPLv2,, go figureJun 12 17:13
Ngmtnd3w: when did I say that?! I am quite sure that there are lots of *people* in this, not lots of *groups*, and *some* of those people are being extremely unhelpfulJun 12 17:13
neighborleemy typing errors notwithstanding o_0Jun 12 17:13
MinceR_Mutex_: m$ holds patents on parts of .net/mono in the hope that they can make GNU/Linux depend on them and then they can sueJun 12 17:13
_Mutex_facts surpass hyperburblyJun 12 17:13
neighborlee<just woke up hourish ago, sorry>Jun 12 17:14
mtnd3wNg Any rebuttal of Mono comes back to BoycottNovellJun 12 17:14
Ngneighborlee: so why mono specifically? I'm not trolling, I'm just curious why there hasn't been the same reaction to VFAT, cifs, ntfs, etc.Jun 12 17:14
_Mutex_IF that was the case, they waved their patent rights the second they typed "GPLv2" into their code headerJun 12 17:14
neighborleeNg, there already is..many gpl software enthusiasts..avoid all such things as often as they canJun 12 17:14
MinceR_Mutex_: they didn'tJun 12 17:14
maxstirner1MinceR: that appears to be their business model as the OS/office market is dyingJun 12 17:15
_Mutex_after all, its the GPL, its designed to be patent unencoumberedJun 12 17:15
MinceR_Mutex_: they never gave anyone a "patent license", which GPLv2 would apply toJun 12 17:15
*Eruaran deletes some more infected exe filesJun 12 17:15
_Mutex_yea they did, read the licenseJun 12 17:15
MinceR_Mutex_: they give "covenants not to sue", which means the same thing but GPLv2 doesn't catch itJun 12 17:15
NgI was trying to find out about the patent licencing on C#/CLR earlier, but my IP lawyer friend has been offline all day. I want to know what the RAND terms are likely to be for an ECMA standardJun 12 17:15
neighborleeNg, but lately..regarding mono..surely you aren't serious for asking why thats relevant..if you are look up ecma at ITwire website and you'll undestand..linux is a cancer its not be trusted..thats another biggie..mono download=only from NOvel is another..need more ?Jun 12 17:15
_Mutex_"If this code is encoumbered by patent or any other reason that stop y ou from providing the rights of teh GPL you are not entitled to use the GPL for your softwareJun 12 17:15
MinceRRAND terms are uselessJun 12 17:16
NgMinceR: don'y you need to see the terms to say that?Jun 12 17:16
_Mutex_Rougly speaking from memory,Jun 12 17:16
Ngthe problem seems to be the lack of them ;)Jun 12 17:16
MinceRNg: RAND generally means that the license fee is non-zero but "low"Jun 12 17:16
MinceRNg: having a patent royalty means not being suitable for FLOSS at allJun 12 17:16
_Goblinof course Ng, so then why ask?Jun 12 17:16
MinceRbecause you can't collect from everyone.Jun 12 17:16
MinceRNg: it was "reasonable" before free software, now it isn't reasonable.Jun 12 17:17
_Mutex_thats why the GPL expressly forbigs itJun 12 17:17
_Mutex_forbids itJun 12 17:17
MinceR_Mutex_: isn't that GPLv3 language?Jun 12 17:17
_Mutex_the GPL is supposed to provide protection against patents and so on, thats why the license exists, and why there is v2 and v3.Jun 12 17:17
NgMinceR: that sounds more like v2 language, v3 takes it further afairJun 12 17:18
_Mutex_If there is a problem with mono, by definition, its a problem with GPL, if its possible to have a problem its the license not the code.Jun 12 17:18
_Mutex_But the license is valid, and the code is not encoumberedJun 12 17:18
MinceRwell, i'm definitely not in the state of mind in which i can analyze legal texts. :)Jun 12 17:18
mtnd3wNg EMCA is a faux standardization, they're the same folks who brought you the Microsoft Office XML format. Just wave some green around their way you can get anything patented.Jun 12 17:18
Ngmtnd3w: ECMA has produced some notable standards, like Javascript. Waving money at them has nothing to do with patenting things thoughJun 12 17:19
_Mutex_no problem, but its the fundamental gist of teh GPL its why the GPL exists, so saying mono is evil is a direct attack on GPL and FOSS.Jun 12 17:19
_Mutex_the foss model falls apart if the GPL cannot be trustedJun 12 17:19
_Mutex_so your tarnishing the GPL by whining about Mono,Jun 12 17:20
neighborleehahaJun 12 17:20
neighborleegood try.reallly good..but faultyJun 12 17:20
MinceR_Mutex_: that's a string of non-sequiturs.Jun 12 17:20
_Mutex_mabey im actually trying to reduct the damage and promote FOSS, and teh GPLJun 12 17:20
neighborleelook at all the 'code' trying to be replaced in ubuntuJun 12 17:20
_Mutex_I understood it fine LOLJun 12 17:20
neighborleebanshee to replace rhythmbox based on LIESJun 12 17:21
_GoblinNot a bad little effort there.... I am impressed...well done Mutex.Jun 12 17:21
neighborlee_Mutex_, is that your premise to combat gpl now ?Jun 12 17:21
neighborleegood luck _Mutex_Jun 12 17:21
Ngneighborlee: the argument for banshee in ubuntu is not lies, it's based on which is better for usersJun 12 17:21
NgI was at UDSJun 12 17:21
neighborleewrongJun 12 17:21
Ngwere you in the session discussing it?Jun 12 17:21
Eruaranwhere have i heard that before...Jun 12 17:21
_GoblinNeighborlee: Dont be too harsh, he's doing better than Ng.Jun 12 17:21
MinceRnobody who wasn't there is allowed to discuss it? :>Jun 12 17:22
neighborleeNg, there have been many lies put forth..rhythmbox is DEAD it needs replacing..WRONG againJun 12 17:22
_Mutex_My premise is to see if i can get you to see, that attacking GPLed code is an attack on FOSS, if there is a problem its with the license that allows this, IF there is a problem, but i doubt there isJun 12 17:22
neighborleeits cant scale..WRONG againJun 12 17:22
neighborleeyou see the pattern ther guys ?Jun 12 17:22
neighborleeits called deceitJun 12 17:22
_Mutex_So now we cannot just trust code because its GPL'd we have to now look at other criteria before we can determine if its "OK" to useJun 12 17:22
NgMinceR: everyone can discuss it, I'm addressing the specific point of "banshee to replace rhythmbox based on LIES". I know many of the ubuntu developers who want to do it and I don't think they are basing their opinion on lies, they are trying to find the best software for our usersJun 12 17:22
neighborlee_Goblin, ahyes-Jun 12 17:23
mtnd3wNg The existence of the Microsoft standard over ODF ISO should tell you that ECMA has a very slant towards standardization practicesJun 12 17:23
_Mutex_In the past if it was GPL is was good to go, now its "mabey" its ok, but not sure, the license is not strong enough to deal with itJun 12 17:23
_Mutex_I prefer knowing GPL is as good as a guarenteeJun 12 17:23
*kentma has quit (Read error: 60 (Operation timed out))Jun 12 17:23
neighborleemtnd3w, exactlyJun 12 17:23
MinceR_Mutex_: well, go and kill ballmer's army of lawyers, then.Jun 12 17:23
MinceRthey're the ones looking for ways around the GPL.Jun 12 17:24
_Mutex_Ballmer did not write the GPL as far as i knowJun 12 17:24
Ngneighborlee: most of the arguments I've heard are more that rhythmbox isn't progressing as quickly as banshee and has worse device supportJun 12 17:24
MinceR_Mutex_: who said he did?Jun 12 17:24
MinceR_Mutex_: who said he had to?Jun 12 17:24
neighborleeNg, maybe it has more coders working on it..more mono codersJun 12 17:24
Aondomutex, i think all want that, so i guess that's why we have more than one version of the gpl, since there are "not thought of" stuff.Jun 12 17:24
_Mutex_They cant be looking too hard, try Apache 2.0 BSD, or wait, mabey ever the GPL itself ,,, wow,, guess what !!!Jun 12 17:24
MinceR_Mutex_: are you sure you understand what "looking for ways around the GPL" means?Jun 12 17:24
neighborleeNg, sometimes the truth though conceiled is the truthJun 12 17:24
Ngneighborlee: sure, there are at least two people paid at novell to work mostly full time on banshee, abock and gabaugJun 12 17:24
EruaranThe GPL is not some silver bullet when you're implementing stuff that Microsoft maintains it has an IP claim overJun 12 17:24
_Mutex_well that is a failing of the GPL, clearly.Jun 12 17:25
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] Smears Against Boycott Novell http://ping.fm/fyHmkJun 12 17:25
EruaranNo, the patent system actually.Jun 12 17:25
_Mutex_if you cant simply TRUST all GPL your screwedJun 12 17:25
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NgI've not met Gabriel, but Aaron is a nice guy, fwiwJun 12 17:26
neighborleeNg, point is , rhythmbox is far from dead or incapable of scaling.or any fud thrown at it..all fud and all in attempt to get more mono code into ubuntu.and mark is sitting there playing dead while it happensJun 12 17:26
schestowitzI've just let the editor know about this tooJun 12 17:26
schestowitzThey just try to blacklist usJun 12 17:26
neighborleeNg, enter fedora.Jun 12 17:26
schestowitz"IHi Carla,  don't have your E-mail addy, but I just needed to let you know that there are some scary accusations made against us and I needed to post clarifications."Jun 12 17:26
mtnd3wNg Rhythmbox development isn't dead.Jun 12 17:26
schestowitz "With the DDOS and all the other abuse I've been getting (like people using my name to insult Helios), I need to establish a level of FUD-busting. They can't debunk the site, so that attack me/the site."Jun 12 17:26
Ngmtnd3w: I didn't say it's dead, I know it's not dead. one developer posted that he didn't have time to work on it anymore. that doesn't == dead :)Jun 12 17:27
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_GoblinRoy, I think the behaviour only strengthens your support....I first came to your site after seeing a dubious allegation against you.Jun 12 17:28
EruaranTo talk of Mono as if it is synonymous with the GPL is to indulge in non sequiturs and to ignore the unresolved licensing issues with what Mono implements.Jun 12 17:28
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schestowitzit's the New GPLJun 12 17:29
schestowitzLike New MicrosoftJun 12 17:29
_Mutex_It is synonymous with the GPL,  Its licenses under the GPLJun 12 17:29
_Hicham_Hi schestowitz!Jun 12 17:29
schestowitzHarnessing MS, implemented using volunteersJun 12 17:29
Eruaran_Mutex_: No, it isn't.Jun 12 17:29
neighborlee_Goblin, it some ways yes it does..in other ways its just a distraction...ymmv possibly ;)Jun 12 17:30
neighborlee_Goblin, but overall I agreeJun 12 17:30
_Mutex_The C# compiler is dual-licensed under the MIT/X11 license and the GNU General Public License (http://www.opensource.org/licenses/gpl-license.html) (GPL).Jun 12 17:31
_Mutex_The C# compiler is dual-licensed under the MIT/X11 license and the GNU General Public License (http://www.opensource.org/licenses/gpl-license.html) (GPL).Jun 12 17:31
schestowitz"According to figures collected by StatCounter, search engine shares fluctuated by only a fraction of a percentage point. " http://www.itwire.com/content/view/25628/1151/Jun 12 17:31
schestowitzHehe.Jun 12 17:31
schestowitz"Comparing the two weeks following Bing's debut with the two weeks before, StatCounter saw Google's share drop by -0.12 percentage points to 89.69 percent, Yahoo's by -0.24 to 5.1 percent, while Microsoft's rose 0.42 points to 3.5 percent."Jun 12 17:31
schestowitzWow!Jun 12 17:31
schestowitzBing winsJun 12 17:31
schestowitzNot.Jun 12 17:31
_Mutex_The tools are released under the terms of the GNU General Public License (http://www.opensource.org/licenses/gpl-license.html) (GPL).Jun 12 17:31
schestowitzI told you they lieJun 12 17:31
schestowitzMS pays some people to lie and hope the lies stickJun 12 17:31
neighborleeyupJun 12 17:31
schestowitzOr as Schmidt put it, "they do this about once a year" (not exact quote)Jun 12 17:32
schestowitzHe talked about renaming and 'relaunching'Jun 12 17:32
schestowitzMS is funny like that...Jun 12 17:32
Aondo_Mutex_  what version?Jun 12 17:32
schestowitzAlways trying, already losing $billions in this area _alone_Jun 12 17:32
schestowitzThey'll die tryingJun 12 17:32
schestowitzThey sacked maybe tens of thousandsJun 12 17:32
_GoblinI don't think they will ever admit defeat (in respect of search)Jun 12 17:32
EruaranI have decided that Windows XP is abandonwareJun 12 17:33
EruaranSince Microsoft aren't fixing bugsJun 12 17:33
_Mutex_The GNU General Public License (GPL)Jun 12 17:33
_Mutex_Version 2, June 1991Jun 12 17:33
schestowitzTo spend $100,000,000 of marketing some -search- OOPS sorry.. DE-Ci-SIONS engineJun 12 17:33
schestowitz"It's not search"Jun 12 17:33
schestowitz"Try it:'Jun 12 17:33
mtnd3wschestowitz: I would have to question that "scientific finding," there are other elements that are involved in falling and rising of stocks.Jun 12 17:33
schestowitz"It's something else"Jun 12 17:33
schestowitzIt's twilight zone searchJun 12 17:33
_Mutex_http://www.mono-project.com/LicensingJun 12 17:33
schestowitzAs in, "what would happen if a company decide for you what they decide"Jun 12 17:34
_GoblinMaybe they could use their own decision engine to decide what its new name will be when its relaunched as something else next year.Jun 12 17:34
schestowitzHEHJun 12 17:34
schestowitz"How..Jun 12 17:34
schestowitz"How toJun 12 17:34
schestowitz"How to batJun 12 17:34
schestowitz"How to beatJun 12 17:34
schestowitz"How to beat GJun 12 17:34
schestowitz"How to beat GJun 12 17:34
schestowitz"How to beat GJun 12 17:34
schestowitz"How to beat Germans?"Jun 12 17:34
_Goblinlol.Jun 12 17:35
maxstirner1:|Jun 12 17:35
schestowitzJust jokingJun 12 17:35
maxstirner1put it on GPLv3 and we can talk mono :DJun 12 17:35
_Mutex_In soccer ?Jun 12 17:35
schestowitzCouldn't think of an MS productJun 12 17:35
schestowitzWhat starts with a GJun 12 17:35
maxstirner1gash?Jun 12 17:35
schestowitzWhat's that?Jun 12 17:35
_Mutex_So does that make the Kernel evil because its GPLv2 ?Jun 12 17:35
mtnd3wmaxstirner1: lolJun 12 17:35
_GoblinlolJun 12 17:35
schestowitzWhat starts with a GremlinsJun 12 17:35
mtnd3w-Mutex_ the kernel is very evilJun 12 17:36
maxstirner1the kernel could improve on that frontJun 12 17:36
_Mutex_LOLJun 12 17:36
maxstirner1its not MStechJun 12 17:36
_Mutex_kernel sanders ?Jun 12 17:36
mtnd3w-Mutex_ it eats babiesJun 12 17:36
maxstirner1http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/gashJun 12 17:36
maxstirner1#4Jun 12 17:36
*schestowitz looksJun 12 17:36
mtnd3w-Mutex_ Linus is a baby eaterJun 12 17:36
_Mutex_11 different herbs and spicsJun 12 17:36
schestowitzOther than Office, what product is profitable to MS?Jun 12 17:36
schestowitzI suppose they sell Windows for server for a profit.Jun 12 17:36
_Mutex_I allways had my suspicionsJun 12 17:36
_Goblinits patent portfolio?Jun 12 17:36
maxstirner1their os/office portfolio is now facing a free replacementJun 12 17:37
Ngschestowitz: windows for desktops makes them quite a bit of cash aiuiJun 12 17:37
schestowitzBut WIndows for desktop loses the margins so quickly that just maintaining the pr*ck (Vista) might be too expensiveJun 12 17:37
schestowitzVista was developed in Bangalore BTWJun 12 17:37
_Mutex_I dont know, but I would like 40 billion a year pleaseJun 12 17:37
schestowitzNg: in the west, yeah.Jun 12 17:37
Ngschestowitz: things like Exchange are probably profitableJun 12 17:37
schestowitzNg: in most areas they lose moneyJun 12 17:37
schestowitzSource: MS WatchJun 12 17:38
_GoblinI think the Zune is.....its great you know...Jun 12 17:38
Ngschestowitz: sure, they use their cash cows to support a lot of unviable business streamsJun 12 17:38
schestowitzWhen I think of Zune I always think of Amnesty BinsJun 12 17:38
schestowitzBut I can't picture iPods in themJun 12 17:38
_Mutex_I don tknow what windows is doing right or wrong, and what linux is doing right or wrong, but i do know where both stand at the present time.Jun 12 17:38
schestowitzMaybe copies of Vista or somethingJun 12 17:38
_GoblinThe Zunes good, just dont rely on it for a new years eve partyJun 12 17:38
schestowitzOh wait... that goes in the shredders betterJun 12 17:38
_Goblinor anyone else knowing what the hell it is.Jun 12 17:38
schestowitzVista is shredder-compatibleJun 12 17:38
_Goblinlol, I saw that youtube clipJun 12 17:39
_Mutex_they are selling something like 20 million vista's a month, it all adds up !!Jun 12 17:39
ender2070vista is a sad jokeJun 12 17:39
schestowitzNopeJun 12 17:39
schestowitzThey sell computersJun 12 17:39
schestowitzNot thewm actuallyJun 12 17:39
schestowitzOEMsJun 12 17:39
schestowitzAnd they mass-license WindowsJun 12 17:39
schestowitzNot high marginsJun 12 17:39
schestowitzAnd in many countries they get no licence paymetns at allJun 12 17:39
_Goblinhow many Vista users actually like it?Jun 12 17:39
_GoblinIve not met one.Jun 12 17:39
schestowitzPeople sell OpenPCsJun 12 17:39
_Mutex_you dont need high margins, when your moving 20 mill a month, :)Jun 12 17:39
schestowitzOr CLean PC ( maxstirner1's term)Jun 12 17:40
_Mutex_of productJun 12 17:40
schestowitz_Goblin: no-one close to me uses VistaJun 12 17:40
maxstirner1:dJun 12 17:40
schestowitzActually, one friend got it with a new PC and stayed with itJun 12 17:40
_GoblinI know a couple....Jun 12 17:40
schestowitzMicrosoft is busy in China trying to get paid for windowsJun 12 17:40
_Goblinnone of which are happy.Jun 12 17:41
schestowitzThere are probably more users there than in the USJun 12 17:41
ld_hw_c1yeahJun 12 17:41
schestowitzAnd almost no-one pays MS a pennyJun 12 17:41
schestowitzNow they make their own office suiteJun 12 17:41
schestowitzIt looks more impressive then MSOJun 12 17:41
schestowitzAnd it sells well after the black screen of death incidentJun 12 17:41
schestowitzThere were some articles about itJun 12 17:41
schestowitzThey use UDFJun 12 17:41
schestowitzUDF was it?Jun 12 17:42
_Mutex_why dont they all migrate to linux ? its free after allJun 12 17:42
schestowitzBecause WIndows is 'free'Jun 12 17:42
schestowitzFor now..Jun 12 17:42
schestowitzGratisJun 12 17:42
schestowitzTo keep the monocultureJun 12 17:42
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_Mutex_so when they have a choice between two free products they pick MS every time ??  Hmm,, not a good lookJun 12 17:42
EruaranLet them all eat VirutJun 12 17:42
schestowitzWIthtout Linux, all Chinese people would have to payJun 12 17:42
ToolsupJun 12 17:42
schestowitzMS makes it EASY to get Vista for freeJun 12 17:43
schestowitzThere are prress articles about itJun 12 17:43
schestowitzThey only pretend to be fighting ocunterfeitingJun 12 17:43
schestowitzWhere they try to scare people into payingJun 12 17:43
ld_hw_c1yes.Jun 12 17:43
_Mutex_its hard to compete on price when your oppo's are free too, im sureJun 12 17:43
_Mutex_all you have left is qualityJun 12 17:43
schestowitzSimple market economicsJun 12 17:43
ToolIt's a double edged sword, stop all piracy or let it continue and keep your marketshare upJun 12 17:44
schestowitzYou have to offer valueJun 12 17:44
schestowitzAnd to most people value doesn't matterJun 12 17:44
schestowitzThey'd just buy what's cheapJun 12 17:44
schestowitzVista doesn't even work on weak computersJun 12 17:44
_Mutex_yes, exactly, all else being equil the punters will go for the best "value" and "quality"Jun 12 17:44
Aondoit's not like change happen over night, even tho we wish for it.Jun 12 17:44
schestowitzAnd Apple does not really exist in like 70% of the worldJun 12 17:44
schestowitzHad Apple gone 'down' to the people, it would harm themJun 12 17:45
schestowitzWeak PCs (underpowered) and more bugs, like proprietary overprices software, etc would tarnish their breandJun 12 17:45
schestowitzIt would devalue AppleJun 12 17:45
_Mutex_basically because apple is a hardware company, who happen to provide software for their productsJun 12 17:46
schestowitzSo Apple is still a niche, fortunatelyJun 12 17:46
schestowitzThat's why they don't turn to netbooks perhapsJun 12 17:46
schestowitzBeing associated with lousy h/w would makes Apple seem on par with LinuxJun 12 17:46
_Mutex_thats right if apple loose their hardware platform, what do they have ? , nothing.Jun 12 17:47
trmancohttp://www2.apebox.org/wordpress/rants/124/#comment-894Jun 12 17:47
_Mutex_same as if Linux or MS lost their software platformJun 12 17:47
NgI wouldn't be surprised if apple make more from their ipods than they do from their computers, but that's only more proof that they're a hardware companyJun 12 17:47
Ng(where ipods includes itunes and iphones)Jun 12 17:48
_Mutex_yes, no doubt they are a hardware company that bundles software,Jun 12 17:48
EruaranApple isn't a hardware companyJun 12 17:49
EruaranApple is a brand.Jun 12 17:49
_Mutex_its not a software companyJun 12 17:49
EruaranIts a logo.Jun 12 17:49
ld_hw_c1now IBM is powerful.Jun 12 17:49
_Mutex_and a fruitJun 12 17:49
NgEruaran: a brand has to be attached to some kind of business plan to make the billions of dollars that apple make :)Jun 12 17:50
ld_hw_c1a fruit.ahhaJun 12 17:50
_Mutex_now IBM is a empty shell, once IBM rules the world !!Jun 12 17:50
EruaranApple doesn't make hardware, it contratcs others to make hardware for the Apple brand.Jun 12 17:50
NgEruaran: and their business is, in large part, hardwareJun 12 17:50
EruaranTheir business is maintenance of the brand.Jun 12 17:50
ld_hw_c1rules the world.yeah..Jun 12 17:51
_Mutex_Eruaran, you are exactly right, they are a tech company, a logo and a name, their products happen to be tech based and contain software and hardware both outsourcedJun 12 17:51
ld_hw_c1oralce is still powerfull.Jun 12 17:51
Ng_Mutex_: apple's software isn't outsourcedJun 12 17:51
Ng*everyone* outsources hardware production these days because it's much cheaperJun 12 17:51
_Mutex_C'mon BSD did OSX how outsourced do you want ?Jun 12 17:51
Ngthey are using other open source projects, but their code is developed in-houseJun 12 17:52
Ngand a lot of OSX is custom codeJun 12 17:52
NgBSD and Mach are only the base reallyJun 12 17:52
_Mutex_nokia probably do alot of in-house programming too, but they are not a software company, like apple they are tech and hardwareJun 12 17:53
EruaranApple is a corporation that does some design and marketing and some code.Jun 12 17:53
_Mutex_but much of a muchnessJun 12 17:53
_Mutex_yesJun 12 17:53
EruaranApple doesn't make iPods. Apple contracts factories in China to produce iPods for them.Jun 12 17:54
_Mutex_thats right, I guess Nike do the same with runnersJun 12 17:55
Eruaranpretty muchJun 12 17:55
Eruaranthey all drive a vicious cycleJun 12 17:55
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[_goblin] Having a look at Wyzo 3. The Linux version is due shortly.. #microsoft #windows #linuxJun 12 17:55
Eruaranthey all demand lower prices from the factories and threaten to take away their contractsJun 12 17:55
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Eruaranthe factories in turn stay in business by reducing their costsJun 12 17:56
Eruaranwhich usually means paying the workers even lessJun 12 17:56
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EruaranWestern corporations are driving thisJun 12 17:57
_Mutex_or moving offshore (usually the first step), so it puts the people who can affort the product out of work, so they cant.. !!Jun 12 17:57
_Mutex_its called the free market,Jun 12 17:57
EruaranI'm not talking about the free marketJun 12 17:57
EruaranI'm talking about exploitationJun 12 17:57
trmancohttp://www.osnews.com/comments/21664Jun 12 17:57
_Mutex_paying someone to work, who wants to work, and who wants to work for that wage is not really exploitationJun 12 17:58
_Mutex_its life,Jun 12 17:58
_Mutex_sorry to say, and if you dont like it, you're in for some bad news )Jun 12 17:59
maxstirner1youre exploiting peoples' desperation, hence the termJun 12 17:59
_Mutex_so no one should be employed ?Jun 12 17:59
_Mutex_how's that going to work ?Jun 12 17:59
_Mutex_alot of people actually LIKE to be employed !!! go figureJun 12 18:00
*Tool has quit ("http://www.mibbit.com ajax IRC Client")Jun 12 18:00
maxstirner1people should be employed with fair conditionsJun 12 18:00
_Mutex_they like to eat, and have a roof and car and thingsJun 12 18:00
_Goblin_Mutex, dont play the fool....theres a big difference. Exploitation relies on peoples desperation for moneyJun 12 18:00
_Mutex_oh i agreeJun 12 18:00
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[_goblin] Saturday will be my last day of forced Windows use. A full diary of my experiences will be posted soon! #windows #microsoft #vistaJun 12 18:00
maxstirner1the relatively advantageous working conditions in the west are the result of decades of strugglesJun 12 18:01
maxstirner1youre obviously not a history graduate :DJun 12 18:01
maxstirner1off to gym..Jun 12 18:01
_Mutex_im not playing the fool, but I may suggest you dont lump the entire human population as exploited.Jun 12 18:01
maxstirner1bbJun 12 18:01
*maxstirner1 (n=user@xdsl-87-78-90-200.netcologne.de) has left #boycottnovellJun 12 18:01
_Goblinsorry?  I never did....Jun 12 18:01
schestowitzmax is rightJun 12 18:02
schestowitzAnd the  shift has already begunJun 12 18:02
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_Goblinmutex: although you can say we are all exploited in the workplace to some degree....Jun 12 18:03
schestowitzGlobalisation, treaties like NAFTA, stagnating wages, more loans, less holidays, more working hours...Jun 12 18:03
schestowitzBecause Unions brokeJun 12 18:03
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schestowitzNick Farrell is left in the INQ todayJun 12 18:05
_Mutex_ivve mostly always worked for my own business, I found it hard to exploit myself.Jun 12 18:05
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] Varghese explains how Microsoft losing Money is a lesson about the vitality of FOSS: http://ping.fm/4diYlJun 12 18:05
schestowitzCanada says no to business method patents  < http://www.theinquirer.net/inquirer/news/1271187/canada-business-method-patents >Jun 12 18:05
schestowitz_Goblin: the INQ goes into the bowelJun 12 18:05
schestowitzThe Reg could be next.Jun 12 18:05
_Mutex_I tended to give myself very good pay and conditions, and hollidays aplentyJun 12 18:05
schestowitz*bowlJun 12 18:05
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schestowitz_Mutex_: so you were self employed or indeoendentJun 12 18:06
schestowitzFewer people are able to do thisJun 12 18:06
schestowitzFrom ages of farms and mills you move into the Wal-Marts and TescosJun 12 18:07
schestowitzSo more people are subordinatesJun 12 18:07
schestowitzRather then owners of their means and productsJun 12 18:07
*schestowitz has changed the topic to: Communication about anything, including Microsoft, Novell, and Free software [publicly logged]Jun 12 18:08
schestowitz( trmanco's suggestion for topic)Jun 12 18:08
ender2070yay canadaJun 12 18:09
schestowitz:-( Peruvian Police Accused of Massacring Indigenous Protesters in Amazon Jungle < http://www.democracynow.org/2009/6/8/peruvian_police_accused_of_massacring_indigenous >Jun 12 18:09
ender2070:DJun 12 18:09
trmanco:|Jun 12 18:09
trmancoschestowitz, I wasn't talking about this channelJun 12 18:09
schestowitzEnderle?Jun 12 18:09
_Mutex_I was self imployed for the past 15 years as a systems engineer, Bank IT specialist, Inmarsat communications system tech, international help desk for the DoD satellite defence communications network, hardware design, S&I instrumentation design. Some systems intergrations, maritime systems, including LORAN, Gyro's, and cryptographic systems. (mainly secure voice, and some data).Jun 12 18:09
ender2070hell noJun 12 18:09
schestowitzHeheJun 12 18:09
schestowitz: -)Jun 12 18:09
schestowitztrmanco is CanadianJun 12 18:10
ender2070are u hitler?Jun 12 18:10
_Mutex_Independent contractor, + an ongoing defense contractJun 12 18:10
schestowitzAre you trolling?Jun 12 18:10
ender2070noJun 12 18:10
ender2070i live in canada, i was sincereJun 12 18:10
trmanco:-)Jun 12 18:10
schestowitz_Mutex_: that's good. Few people are able to do soJun 12 18:10
_Mutex_how can you be eh ?"Jun 12 18:10
schestowitzender2070: I was semi-jokingJun 12 18:11
EruaranI wish this scan would finishJun 12 18:11
_Mutex_Yes, i was lucky enough to get some great military training as a youngunJun 12 18:11
ender2070lol actually if anything - i posted an idea on ubuntu brainshare suggesting a name changeJun 12 18:11
schestowitzScary analogy there between two guys with famous mustaches.Jun 12 18:11
*DaemonXP (n=none@c-67-173-86-85.hsd1.in.comcast.net) has joined #BoycottnovellJun 12 18:12
schestowitzender2070: for Brainshare?Jun 12 18:12
_Mutex_piorot and charlie chaplinJun 12 18:12
schestowitzOr Ubuntu?Jun 12 18:12
ender2070the ubuntu oneJun 12 18:12
schestowitzIt's funny that they call it that... BrainShareJun 12 18:12
schestowitzThat's Novell's annual gigJun 12 18:12
schestowitzWhich got canceled this yearJun 12 18:12
schestowitzMaybe never to returnJun 12 18:12
ender2070i suggested they rename the distro "Ubuntu MS\GNU\Linux"Jun 12 18:12
EruaranNo brains to share ?Jun 12 18:12
schestowitzSo it will be remembered as something elseJun 12 18:12
schestowitzender2070: oh, I thought you meant UbuntuOneJun 12 18:13
schestowitzWhich is in the news againJun 12 18:13
schestowitzender2070: Ubuntu tries to be like LeopardJun 12 18:13
schestowitzNot so much MSJun 12 18:13
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ender2070http://brainstorm.ubuntu.com/idea/20234/Jun 12 18:13
DaemonXPIt would be nice if Ubuntu or Mandriva would make it easier to set up a local networkJun 12 18:13
schestowitzBut it uses MS software to build a Mac OS X-like thing, IMHOJun 12 18:13
fewaIt is easyJun 12 18:13
DaemonXPI've noticed that a lot of people give up and just use a thumb drive or burn CDs to transport data between systemsJun 12 18:13
fewaapt-get install nfs-kernel-serverJun 12 18:14
*schestowitz looks Jun 12 18:14
fewanano /etc/exportsJun 12 18:14
fewaexportfs -rJun 12 18:14
fewadoneJun 12 18:14
schestowitz"I see what you did, there. "Jun 12 18:14
schestowitz"Could we mod this up? "Jun 12 18:15
DaemonXP"Windows has noticed there are other computers on this network, would you like to set up a group?"Jun 12 18:15
schestowitzMaybe some moderator will fail to spot the humourJun 12 18:15
schestowitzBut all this infighting is less helpful than discussion about MonoJun 12 18:15
schestowitzNotice how Microsoft is ALWAYS silentJun 12 18:15
schestowitzAnd ECMA tooJun 12 18:15
DaemonXP"Windows has noticed you have a Media Center Extender, would you like to configure it?"Jun 12 18:15
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[astralknight] Atomic Warfare: Intel fights Microsoft Mafia with Linux: http://digg.com/d1telF?tJun 12 18:15
schestowitz"I saw that internally inside Microsoft many times when I was told to stay away from supporting Mono in public. They reserve the right to sue"Jun 12 18:15
DaemonXPwhen will Ubuntu just notice this stuff and ask the user?Jun 12 18:15
schestowitzhttp://twitter.com/Scobleizer/statuses/764673949Jun 12 18:15
schestowitz"stay away from supporting Mono in public"Jun 12 18:16
schestowitzI call it "submarine patent" attackJun 12 18:16
schestowitzaka RambusicationJun 12 18:16
schestowitz"But, Horacio, which 235 patents?"Jun 12 18:16
fewaDaemonXP, avahi-browke -aJun 12 18:16
schestowitzHoracio: no commentJun 12 18:16
fewaDaemonXP, avahi-browse -aJun 12 18:16
_Goblin"Windows has noticed you need to spend more money on Microsoft products.  Would you like to replace OpenOffice with MS Office?"Jun 12 18:16
schestowitz"But come on, tell us.."Jun 12 18:16
schestowitzHoracio: no, not yetJun 12 18:17
fewaway superior to MS crapJun 12 18:17
schestowitzSome years go by and Novell infects LinuxJun 12 18:17
DaemonXPGNOME is about the only thing that makes some common tasks sane and obviousJun 12 18:17
schestowitzThen:Jun 12 18:17
DaemonXPI've figured out KDE largely through stumbling around and "That souns kind of like what I need"Jun 12 18:17
schestowitzHoracio: you 'stole' OOXML, and Mono, and Moonlight, and our codecs...Jun 12 18:17
fewaavahi is from bonjour/zeroconf a apple thing, and its quite goodJun 12 18:17
schestowitzHoracio: Linux is just a ripoff of Windows. Pay upJun 12 18:17
DaemonXPyeah, Apple is considering using AvahiJun 12 18:18
DaemonXPschestowitz: It isn't helpful when you have things like that iMagicOS salescreatureJun 12 18:18
DaemonXPgoing around spamming a Windows workalike made from KubuntuJun 12 18:18
*_Goblin has quit ()Jun 12 18:18
fewaDaemonXP, but they are already compatible with itJun 12 18:18
DaemonXPI dunno, the thing is that if they could say "Things like web cam streaming over popular protocols and Flash, setting up local networks, etc. is easy" I'd probably buy something like that just to have it over with as soon as the system is set upJun 12 18:20
DaemonXPbut it's really just Kubuntu with a more Vista-isah skinJun 12 18:20
DaemonXP*ishJun 12 18:20
DaemonXPthey don't even mention that it's LinuxJun 12 18:20
NgDaemonXP: considering? apple use avahi extensively, but they call it BonjourJun 12 18:20
NgDaemonXP: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bonjour_(software)Jun 12 18:21
DaemonXPwhich is probably merciful because it doesn't portray Linux in as good a light as it couldJun 12 18:21
fewaNg, he is meaning the open source implamentation i believeJun 12 18:21
schestowitztrmanco: WTF? OS News is linking to the Shields libelof usJun 12 18:21
DaemonXPyesJun 12 18:21
schestowitzHe's spreading his junk all over the placeJun 12 18:21
schestowitzWith the smearsJun 12 18:21
DaemonXPApple has hinted that they want to use AvahiJun 12 18:21
DaemonXPI wouldn't blame themJun 12 18:21
trmancoschestowitz, yeahJun 12 18:21
Ngoh, I seeJun 12 18:21
fewaut thats just an implamentation issueJun 12 18:21
fewadoesnt really matterJun 12 18:21
DaemonXPBSD licensed software and GPL licensed software is like the old jokeJun 12 18:22
schestowitzDell planning acquisition: WSJ < http://news.smh.com.au/breaking-news-technology/dell-planning-acquisition-wsj-20090612-c549.html >Jun 12 18:22
DaemonXPYou can be a Buddhist and a Christian, but you can't be a Christian and a BuddhistJun 12 18:22
NgDaemonXP: well it would be good if there was an entirely common zeroconf implementation :)Jun 12 18:22
schestowitztrmanco: I guess it only shows how sad they areJun 12 18:22
Ngalthough apple failed at that with CUPSJun 12 18:22
DaemonXPGPL doesn't accept any license that's not like itselfJun 12 18:22
schestowitzI'm not gonna waste more time on it..Jun 12 18:22
trmancoschestowitz, but read the commentsJun 12 18:22
DaemonXPso if Apple needs anything that has to link to other code under different licenses, it can't be GPLJun 12 18:22
trmancoyou can see the Ms zoo act on real free software advocatesJun 12 18:22
trmancoand lies tooJun 12 18:23
schestowitzSecret evidence on terror suspects ruled illegal < http://www.guardian.co.uk/uk/2009/jun/10/secret-evidence-legal-status >Jun 12 18:23
schestowitztrmanco: be carefulJun 12 18:23
trmancolike the comment I posted a while agoJun 12 18:23
schestowitzNow we're alledegly murderersJun 12 18:23
schestowitzWanting to kill MS employeesJun 12 18:23
schestowitzSo say the Mono folksJun 12 18:23
DaemonXPLike I said, FreeBSD is evolving as quickly or faster than Linux in many areas because Linux has to reinvent the wheelJun 12 18:23
schestowitzWe're very, VERY dangerousJun 12 18:23
DaemonXPjust to put it under their licenseJun 12 18:23
schestowitzDon't you DARE to link to usJun 12 18:23
DaemonXPFreeBSD can reuse thingsJun 12 18:23
trmancoyeah, because if novell dies, they will get unemployedJun 12 18:23
schestowitzWell, so did Stalin's troops, I guess.Jun 12 18:24
schestowitzWhat a tragedy, eh?Jun 12 18:24
DaemonXPI may look at my options for GPUs a little more carefully next timeJun 12 18:24
DaemonXPin all other areas, I like PC-BSD better than UbuntuJun 12 18:24
DaemonXPbut Nvidia makes no 64-bit BSD driversJun 12 18:25
trmancowhich I understand, but hey, last time I checked I live in a free countryJun 12 18:25
DaemonXPso I have to use 32-bit BSD with PAE enabled so it can see my RAMJun 12 18:25
trmancoso I am free to say anything I wan or follow anybody I wan't with mannersJun 12 18:25
trmancowant*Jun 12 18:26
trmancoFreeBSD is nice in stableJun 12 18:26
trmancoand*Jun 12 18:26
fewaDaemonXP, avahi is LGPLJun 12 18:27
DaemonXPyes, I've already said LGPL is not a bad thing in my opinonJun 12 18:27
DaemonXPmainly because it's GPL - viral clauseJun 12 18:28
fewaalso projects such as Linux define the GPL interfacesJun 12 18:28
fewaand the non-GPL interfacesJun 12 18:28
DaemonXPwhich is the only part about GPL that disgusts meJun 12 18:28
fewaDaemonXP, normal use does not trigger that conditionJun 12 18:28
schestowitzOK< Todd Bishop became useful. He become an MS PR personJun 12 18:28
DaemonXPthe FSF did LGPL because even they know they can't convince people to make their software viralJun 12 18:28
schestowitzIn the past he at least posetd criticial analysisJun 12 18:28
DaemonXPand those people would just use a BSD license to avoid the viral clauseJun 12 18:29
schestowitzBut like most pro-MS bloggers he's seeing the company on its deathbed and just tries to save it with PRJun 12 18:29
schestowitzBinnableJun 12 18:29
schestowitzViral is a strong word, DaemonXP Jun 12 18:29
schestowitzYou sound like SteveBJun 12 18:30
DaemonXPI'd really say the LGPL is preferable to either GPL or BSD-likeJun 12 18:30
schestowitzDon't forget to wipe those armpits, XP DemonJun 12 18:30
DaemonXPBSD doesn't make them give anything back, and GPL forces you to license anything of yours under a license you may not want to useJun 12 18:30
_Hicham_DaemonSleepJun 12 18:30
DaemonXPso people avoid it and write their own implementationJun 12 18:30
fewaDaemonXP, Microsoft product groups would regularly hide interfaces because they didnt want anybody linking and using their code and taking control over the productsJun 12 18:30
neighborleeDaemonXP, so the idea that someone wouldn't FORCE something on you is unpleasant I take it ? ;)Jun 12 18:31
DaemonXPGoogle reverse engineered Vista with a disassemblerJun 12 18:31
DaemonXP\to make ChromeJun 12 18:31
fewaDaemonXP, thats a lieJun 12 18:31
fewaMS bsJun 12 18:31
DaemonXPnoJun 12 18:31
DaemonXPit's in the Chromium sourceJun 12 18:31
DaemonXPthey admitted doing itJun 12 18:31
DaemonXPin the commentingJun 12 18:31
fewaDaemonXP, they admitted to reading public knowledge obtained through reverse engineeringJun 12 18:31
trmancoDaemonXP, link?Jun 12 18:31
fewaDaemonXP, published in a journalJun 12 18:32
DaemonXP"An explanatory comment in the Chrome source code mentions use of a disassembler to figure out the security feature. "Completely undocumented from Microsoft. You can find this information by disassembling Vista's SP1 kernel32.dll with your favorite disassembler," the comment says."Jun 12 18:32
fewahttp://www.uninformed.org/?v=2&a=4Jun 12 18:32
DaemonXPthey ran binary components of Vista through a disassemblerJun 12 18:32
fewapublic knowledgeJun 12 18:32
DaemonXPwere stupid enough to admit it in code commentsJun 12 18:32
_Mutex_thats a funny statement "public knosledge obtained through reverse engineering ",  !!Jun 12 18:32
trmancobut I wan't the link to the source file and the appropriate revisionJun 12 18:32
DaemonXPthen tried to deny it allJun 12 18:32
fewa_Mutex_, it is 4 years oldJun 12 18:32
DaemonXPhttp://src.chromium.org/viewvc/chrome/trunk/src/sandbox/src/dep.cc?view=markupJun 12 18:33
DaemonXPthey removed the referenceJun 12 18:33
DaemonXPbut that was the file it was inJun 12 18:33
_Mutex_yes, you dont get public knowledge from spying, or pulling it apart, its PUBLIC knowledge if you have to seek it out and find it by methods or tricks.Jun 12 18:33
fewa_Mutex_, they red it is a published journalJun 12 18:34
fewa_Mutex_, thats 4 years oldJun 12 18:34
_Mutex_ then you can call reading a journal "reverse engineering " then sorryJun 12 18:34
DaemonXPhttp://src.chromium.org/viewvc/chrome/trunk/src/sandbox/src/dep.cc?view=markup&pathrev=13Jun 12 18:34
_Mutex_cant ==canJun 12 18:34
DaemonXP"// Completely undocumented from Microsoft. You can find this information byJun 12 18:34
DaemonXP// disassembling Vista's SP1 kernel32.dll with your favorite disassembler.Jun 12 18:34
DaemonXPenum PROCESS_INFORMATION_CLASS {Jun 12 18:34
DaemonXP  ProcessExecuteFlags = 0x22,Jun 12 18:34
DaemonXP};"Jun 12 18:34
trmancothat is why I asked the appropriate rev number :-PJun 12 18:34
DaemonXPso thereJun 12 18:35
DaemonXPproofJun 12 18:35
DaemonXPin their own content revision systemJun 12 18:35
DaemonXPthey removed that commentJun 12 18:35
DaemonXPbut the code is still in the current version of the fileJun 12 18:35
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[davidgerard] Rocknerd: The discreet charm of the Grateful Dead. http://rocknerd.co.uk/?p=582Jun 12 18:35
trmancoso?Jun 12 18:36
DaemonXPI like how they deny everything and revise the file to look innoceneJun 12 18:36
DaemonXP*innocentJun 12 18:36