IRC: #boycottnovell @ FreeNode: June 13th, 2009

_GoblinLast night of using XP...Jun 13 00:00
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] Screenshots of Ubuntu 9.10 (alpha): still looks the same 13 00:00
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_Hicham__Goblin : why last night?Jun 13 00:01
_GoblinEnd of holiday.Jun 13 00:01
_GoblinI'll be home on sat, and wont have to use this XP netbookJun 13 00:01
_GoblinI was trying to think how long its been since Ive used a Microsoft product outside of work...Jun 13 00:01
_GoblinIts been a long time...Jun 13 00:02
_Mutex_Goodnight all, thanks for the interesting chats, catch you all later, if not have a great weekend....Jun 13 00:02
_Goblinditto...been very interesting...Jun 13 00:02
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_Goblinand if anyone was privy to the conversation I had this morning.....It appears that flying the jolly roger at sea is ok.  I wasn't sunk by the Royal Navy.Jun 13 00:05
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] Palms's new Linux-based phones receive some good reviews (thus far): 13 00:05
schestowitzRoyal Navy...?Jun 13 00:05
_Goblinyeah Roy...Jun 13 00:05
schestowitz_Goblin: did you know that RAF based in the UK are sometimes US bases?Jun 13 00:06
_GoblinI was out fishing today 2 miles off Bournemouth CoastJun 13 00:06
_Goblinand yes Northalt is one I believeJun 13 00:06
schestowitzI didn't know this until recently. Why don't they just say what these are?Jun 13 00:06
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schestowitzIn Yorkshire they did E-mail surveillance, IIRCJun 13 00:06
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_Goblinand on an Xfiles note, they had an involvement (allegedly) in the UFO tracked by a police helicopter that was reported in the mainstream press.Jun 13 00:07
_GoblinI think.....and this is only a think....that the US train here in Bournmouth near the SBS base.Jun 13 00:08
_Goblin* not base, training facilityJun 13 00:08
_GoblinIf they do, I think it would probably be the seals.Jun 13 00:09
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schestowitzHehe. UFOsJun 13 00:10
schestowitzWhat is the probability?Jun 13 00:10
schestowitzAnd why would they not be 100 bigger? Or 100,000 times bigger? Had they evolved separately (by chance) and could evolve to travel so long.Jun 13 00:11
schestowitzUFO stories make me giggly because it's usually people on drugs with hallucination. Some attribute it to religion and some to drugsJun 13 00:12
schestowitz"Can't explain" -> MiracleJun 13 00:12
balzaca friend told me he saw aliens while on shroomsJun 13 00:13
balzacI asked what did they look like?Jun 13 00:13
balzaclike people, he said, only it seemed i could see through their skinJun 13 00:13
balzacI asked, have you considered the possibility it might have been the shrooms?Jun 13 00:14
ThistleWebso they have Compwiz enabledJun 13 00:14
balzacno, it was aliens.Jun 13 00:14
ThistleWebeven aliens use LinuxJun 13 00:14
ThistleWebthat's what's holding NASA backJun 13 00:14
schestowitzThat's 'new' to me: "Even various flavors of desktop Linux, long used by hobbyists to extract more life from older hardware" 13 00:15
schestowitzSo Linux was created to make use of crappy PCS?Jun 13 00:15
schestowitzOr it Scott rewriting history?Jun 13 00:15
schestowitzbalzac: Hehe.Jun 13 00:16
schestowitzThistleWeb: maybe just compsite extension enabledJun 13 00:16
_Goblinsorry afk..Jun 13 00:16
schestowitzAliens are a nice fantasyJun 13 00:16
ugufjhfj_NASA is pro-microsoft :(Jun 13 00:16
ThistleWebschestowitz: maybeJun 13 00:16
schestowitzMany profitable movies made this way.Jun 13 00:16
schestowitzugufjhfj_: sometimes Linux tooJun 13 00:17
_GoblinSome say the movie Independence day was based on fact...Jun 13 00:17
_Goblinhave you considered that the aliens were running vistaJun 13 00:17
schestowitzThere's also a best-selling bookJun 13 00:17
schestowitzWhich is based on fictionJun 13 00:17
ThistleWebactually, jokes aside, NASA do have their cluster cimputing steup on RH I thinkJun 13 00:17
_Goblinthats why it was so easy to infect their machinesJun 13 00:17
schestowitzAnd lots of donations -- not just films -- are made from this bookJun 13 00:17
ugufjhfj_ 13 00:18
schestowitzYeahJun 13 00:18
balzacfor clustered computing, what else are you going to use if not GNU/Linux?Jun 13 00:18
ThistleWebdunno about all of NASAJun 13 00:18
schestowitzWierd thatJun 13 00:18
schestowitzWeirdJun 13 00:18
schestowitzugufjhfj_: 13 00:18
balzacA Microsoft Ballmer Cluster?Jun 13 00:18
_Goblinwhat I want to know is why do all UFO's seem to crash in the US?Jun 13 00:18
ThistleWebtheir customer end is pro-MS thoughJun 13 00:18
schestowitzBN comes as result #1 in Google for "boycott nasa". Oops.Jun 13 00:18
ugufjhfj_NASA is infectedJun 13 00:18
_Goblinmaybe they are heading to Redmond for a downgrade to XP.Jun 13 00:19
balzacI'll stick with a Beowulf Cluster of GNU/Linux machinesJun 13 00:19
schestowitzugufjhfj_: the laptops in space areJun 13 00:19
schestowitzThey got infected for running XPJun 13 00:19
ThistleWebbalzac: yep Beowulf, that was itJun 13 00:19
schestowitzAmazingJun 13 00:19
schestowitzSo much public moneyJun 13 00:19
schestowitzFor Teflon and 'stuff'.....Jun 13 00:19
schestowitzYou'd think they could make or use a better OS than WindowsJun 13 00:19
schestowitzThey use a lot of Fedora in NASAJun 13 00:19
_GoblinWatching cursed on BBC1...that dog acts alot like my GNUdog: 13 00:21
fewaschestowitz, the NASA "open source" licence is similarly damming of public worksJun 13 00:22
ugufjhfj_i can't imagine how a states agency can do partnership with microsoft, and create proprietary stuff with citizen taxJun 13 00:25
ugufjhfj_from Sorry, you don't have the Windows Media plugin needed to view this video.Jun 13 00:33
balzacthat's so lame!Jun 13 00:36
balzacis it nasa or is it disney?Jun 13 00:36
balzacmaybe the moon landing was faked. jkJun 13 00:37
schestowitzIRC log for yesterday was 1.4MBJun 13 00:37
schestowitzThis is weird.Jun 13 00:37
balzachave a good weekendJun 13 00:37
schestowitzugufjhfj_: yes, it's absurdJun 13 00:38
schestowitzThe whole thing didn't get enough scrutinyJun 13 00:38
schestowitzbalzac: yes, Neal/Niel Armstrong was on shroomsJun 13 00:38
schestowitz"It's one small dope for man.. one...oh, I forgot my line"Jun 13 00:39
ThistleWeblolJun 13 00:39
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schestowitz"Look!! I can jump higher. I must be high!"Jun 13 00:39
schestowitzWhoa!Jun 13 00:40
schestowitzOpenSUSE crisis.Jun 13 00:40
schestowitz 13 00:40
_GoblinSweet, I'm there.Jun 13 00:40
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mib_6yanqdHey guys, check this: 13 00:44
_Goblingood find..and proves the theory if there was nothing wrong there would be no need to make an article since it would be obvious.Jun 13 00:45
_GoblinJo Shields I presume...Jun 13 00:46
_Goblinthe Mono victim....Jun 13 00:46
_Goblinlets take a story, (IMO) imply the mad rantings of others and then play the victim at the would be very good if the audience was under 10 yrs old...Jun 13 00:47
_Goblinand the article reads to me more like a sales pitch than the heart felt views of the "Martyr of mono"Jun 13 00:48
schestowitzYeah, meh.Jun 13 00:48
schestowitzI only responded because of his attack on usJun 13 00:48
schestowitz 13 00:49
ender2070so many pro mono things in the news latelyJun 13 00:49
schestowitzAlso againstJun 13 00:49
schestowitzA lotJun 13 00:49
ender2070i think they got it defaulted in debian so you cant vote it out of ubuntuJun 13 00:49
schestowitzBut it's them pushing back for itJun 13 00:49
_Goblindon't forget though Jo is the victim.....Jun 13 00:49
_Goblinlol.Jun 13 00:49
schestowitzWhy?Jun 13 00:49
schestowitzI never attacked himpersonallyJun 13 00:49
schestowitzIf anything, Sam didJun 13 00:49
_GoblinIt was said in jestJun 13 00:50
schestowitz 13 00:50
schestowitzI wrote about the issuesJun 13 00:50
schestowitzSometimes you can't escape mentionning namesJun 13 00:50
ender2070j shields is a dumbassJun 13 00:50
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_Goblinbtw the Martyr of Mono is now copyrighted to me...its Jo's new title.Jun 13 00:50
_Goblinoh look, Mono mentioned and DaemonFC pops up...Jun 13 00:51
DaemonFCschestowitz: Mandriva KDE is over 9 GB by the time it's usefulJun 13 00:51
_GoblinlolJun 13 00:51
DaemonFCwhich is only a couple gigs away from Windows VistaJun 13 00:51
DaemonFC:PJun 13 00:51
_Goblinyou've got to give them credit...Jun 13 00:51
ender2070mandrive does a poor job at it, lolJun 13 00:51
_Goblinand Windows is never useful no matter how large it gets.Jun 13 00:51
schestowitzMandriva is greatJun 13 00:51
DaemonFCMandriva 2009.1 KDE edition is 4 times bigger than Windows XP ProfessionalJun 13 00:51
ender2070XP came out in 2001Jun 13 00:52
_Goblinand more than 10 times betterJun 13 00:52
ender2070how big was KDE thenJun 13 00:52
DaemonFChmmmJun 13 00:52
DaemonFCgood questionJun 13 00:52
DaemonFCbut most KDE or GNOME distros are at least no bigger than Windows XPJun 13 00:52
DaemonFCMadnriva approaches VistaJun 13 00:52
ender2070Kubuntu and Fedora got it on one livecdJun 13 00:52
_GoblinWhat you saying about Vista Daemon?Jun 13 00:52
ender2070usefulness includedJun 13 00:52
DaemonFCI'm saying God damn this thing is fucking hugeJun 13 00:53
ender2070slackware has it in 2 cd'sJun 13 00:53
DaemonFCdoes that help?Jun 13 00:53
_Goblinyeah.Jun 13 00:53
_Goblinwhat about 7?Jun 13 00:53
ender2070you cant compare kde to vista, vista in the end uses 1.28gb of ram without an apps loadedJun 13 00:53
DaemonFCWindows 7 is about the same size as VistaJun 13 00:53
_Goblinoh dear.Jun 13 00:53
DaemonFCVista Ultimate is 18 gigsJun 13 00:53
DaemonFCWindows 7 Ultimate is 17 gigsJun 13 00:54
DaemonFCit's actually gone down :)Jun 13 00:54
_Goblinand people pay for this (your words) "f*cking huge " software then?Jun 13 00:54
ender2070they removed all the bullshit, it should be smaller :)Jun 13 00:54
_Goblinabout 10kJun 13 00:54
DaemonFCwell, Windows 7 isntalls all possible components and only activates what you've paid forJun 13 00:54
_GoblinI think if you removed the rubbish you would only be left with autoexec.batJun 13 00:54
DaemonFCthat way it doesn't make you need a disc to upgradeJun 13 00:54
mib_6yanqdI follow that article from Linux's Hater Blog, there are very interesting comments  here.Jun 13 00:55
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DaemonFCVista didn't do thatJun 13 00:55
DaemonFCit made the Anytime Upgrade a disasterJun 13 00:55
ender2070windows has activation layers which disable parts of the software if you dont pay for their tiers - thats bad for anyoneJun 13 00:55
DaemonFCnot reallyJun 13 00:55
DaemonFCit makes senseJun 13 00:55
ender2070why is there home premium, ultimate, business, etcJun 13 00:55
fewaDaemonFC, people just want a working computerJun 13 00:56
_Goblinsort of like a Ballmer menu if you will...starters/maincourse and desert..Jun 13 00:56
DaemonFCwhy does any software have a standard version and a Professional edition once you pay them more money?Jun 13 00:56
fewa"activation"is a so-called anti-featureJun 13 00:56
DaemonFCusually the difference is just a registration codeJun 13 00:56
ender2070DaemonFC - exactly - this isnt how software should functionJun 13 00:56
fewaits a "feature" that you would pay to have removedJun 13 00:56
ender2070free software & open source try to avoid all that cruftJun 13 00:57
fewa 13 00:57
DaemonFCwell, there's just no reason for Mandriva to be so largeJun 13 00:57
DaemonFCtheir GNOME edition is not really all that bigJun 13 00:57
ender2070Mandriva simply includes their entire software library on dvd'sJun 13 00:57
DaemonFCit's only like 3 gigs once you add all your drivers and codecsJun 13 00:57
DaemonFCso the KDE edition is 300% biggerJun 13 00:58
ender2070soJun 13 00:58
_Goblinand?Jun 13 00:58
DaemonFCit's wasteful and bloatedJun 13 00:58
ender2070debian comes on 7 DVD iso's, isnt that big? (mind you they include their repos)Jun 13 00:58
_Goblinyoure talking about ONE distro.Jun 13 00:58
_Goblinand coming from a Windows user, thats rich.Jun 13 00:58
DaemonFCthere's no reason to pack half of GNOME in there once they have a desktop environment alreadyJun 13 00:58
fewaDaemonFC, you just said that wincrap is 17 GBs of bloatJun 13 00:58
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DaemonFCHome Premium is 12Jun 13 00:59
DaemonFC:)Jun 13 00:59
_GoblinwowJun 13 00:59
DaemonFCI'd compare Mandriva more to thatJun 13 00:59
_Goblinand?Jun 13 00:59
fewaLinux distrobution are it allJun 13 00:59
_Goblinyour point is?Jun 13 00:59
fewathey can be anythingJun 13 00:59
_Hicham_DaemonFC : what is the meaning of FC?Jun 13 00:59
fewathey dont have thse so called anti-featuresJun 13 00:59
DaemonFCfeatures are good, but duplicating everything just for no reasonJun 13 01:00
DaemonFCis what gets meJun 13 01:00
_GoblinFUD'ng Channels?Jun 13 01:00
DaemonFCthey have 3 programs that can play Compact DiscsJun 13 01:00
DaemonFCTwo web browserJun 13 01:00
_Goblinoh noJun 13 01:00
_Goblinthats terribleJun 13 01:00
_Hicham_Daemon Feature Collector?Jun 13 01:00
DaemonFCthree compositing programsJun 13 01:00
ender2070i stated already you could get kubuntu and fedora 11 on ONE single livecd, which installs onto the HDD and the ISO is 700mbJun 13 01:00
ender2070Vista's ISO is 2gbJun 13 01:01
DaemonFCmore graphics manipulation software than I care to countJun 13 01:01
ender2070how is that 300% biggerJun 13 01:01
_GoblinStop the world, too much free software....Jun 13 01:01
fewaDaemonFC, wincrap isnt even functional out of the boxJun 13 01:01
DaemonFCVista's ISO is actually 4.33 GBJun 13 01:01
_Goblinwow.Jun 13 01:01
fewaeven with all that bloatJun 13 01:01
_Goblin4.33gb of worthlessness.Jun 13 01:01
DaemonFCI've reduced Vista's ISO to fit on a CD beforeJun 13 01:01
ender2070oh, windows 7 is 2gb of an isoJun 13 01:01
DaemonFCit's not difficultJun 13 01:01
ender2070sorryJun 13 01:01
DaemonFCthe voice recognition crap is 1 gig all by itselfJun 13 01:02
_GoblinI saw a chap on Youtube reduce Vista in a shredder....Ive got the link if you want it.Jun 13 01:02
ender2070voice recognition shouldnt be 1gbJun 13 01:02
fewa 13 01:02
DaemonFCit isJun 13 01:02
ender2070dragon naturally speaking doesnt take up 1gb and its more complexJun 13 01:03
DaemonFCthen you can remove Windows Defender and cut over 100 megs outJun 13 01:03
DaemonFCbetween program and support filesJun 13 01:03
fewaender2070, not to point out, betterJun 13 01:03
ender2070windows defender uses more or less about 20-50mbJun 13 01:03
_GoblinDaemonFC what point are you trying to prove here?Jun 13 01:03
ender2070that he can distract me long enough from getting foodJun 13 01:04
DaemonFCthere's lots of useless crap in Windows and if you take it all out, it's actually possible to not only fit it on a CD, but integrate your drivers whileyou're at itJun 13 01:04
_Goblinwow.Jun 13 01:04
DaemonFC:)Jun 13 01:04
_Goblinand thats it?Jun 13 01:04
_Goblinyour entire point was based around that?Jun 13 01:04
ender2070the windows defender folder on my win7 system uses 500kJun 13 01:04
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DaemonFCWindows is about 4 times the size it needs to be for how useful it isJun 13 01:04
_Goblinif you download a cracked version, I think you will find it considerably smaller.Jun 13 01:04
DaemonFCMandriva is 3 times bigger than it needs to beJun 13 01:04
ender2070go inform mandriva thenJun 13 01:05
_Goblinso says DaemonFC.Jun 13 01:05
_Goblinthanks for that.Jun 13 01:05
ender2070im sure they are aware of their own issues trying to make a livecd distro with an installer in itJun 13 01:05
_GoblinMuch as I trust a person who uses the term "f*cking huge" I think we will simply move on...Jun 13 01:05
DaemonFCWell, I like the LiveCD approachJun 13 01:06
DaemonFCbecause then they can't get carried awayJun 13 01:06
DaemonFCbecause they onl yhave 700 megs to work withJun 13 01:06
ender2070yeahJun 13 01:06
ender2070but the two most popular distros work that wayJun 13 01:06
_GoblinMandriva 2009 is available on LiveCD....Jun 13 01:06
DaemonFCnot reallyJun 13 01:06
ender2070if mandriva 2009 is on livecd, then bamJun 13 01:06
DaemonFCMandriva is only a LiveCD if you have x86 32-bit systemJun 13 01:06
DaemonFCotherwise you need the DVDJun 13 01:06
_GoblinYep, it was on Linux Format with about 5 other distrosJun 13 01:07
ender2070that should tell you they arent very good thenJun 13 01:07
_Goblinand a load of other utilsJun 13 01:07
ender2070switch, vote with ur feetJun 13 01:07
fewaDaemonFC, then get fedora, or debian, or ubuntu, or centos, or....Jun 13 01:07
DaemonFCMandriva is only a LiveCD for one archJun 13 01:07
DaemonFCI asked them about it and they replied actuallyJun 13 01:07
_GoblinDaemonFC why not try Puppy or NimbleXJun 13 01:07
ender2070im switching to fedora, i used to use debian but they decided to include tomboy and its diseasesJun 13 01:08
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DaemonFCbecause they can only get a few languages on each CD, they actually have to have like 5 CDs to support Mandriva One just on x86 32-bitJun 13 01:08
_Goblinor how about AROS?  I think thats around 80meg for an ISO of liveCDJun 13 01:08
DaemonFCto support X86-64 they'd need 10 imagesJun 13 01:08
_Hicham_DaemonFC is trying everythingJun 13 01:08
ender2070kubuntu and fedora have 64-bit livecd'sJun 13 01:08
DaemonFC5 for x86 and 5 for x86-64Jun 13 01:08
ender2070non-dvd versionsJun 13 01:08
fewaender2070, there is no mono on my debian systemJun 13 01:08
DaemonFCI assume that's why Ubuntu got tired of officially hauling around PowerPCJun 13 01:09
_Goblinwell thats it, my life is over.  The Mandriva revelations by DaemonFC shocking....Jun 13 01:09
ender2070fewa - its in squeeze nowJun 13 01:09
fewaender2070, im runnin sqeezeJun 13 01:09
ender2070and gnome?Jun 13 01:09
DaemonFCthen they axed their x86-64 ShipIt CDsJun 13 01:09
fewabut started with lenny and gnomeJun 13 01:09
fewariding testingJun 13 01:09
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_GoblinDaemonFC - Can't you grasp that nobody here is in the least bit bothered by your "revelations"Jun 13 01:09
DaemonFCx86 is the only thing anybody is bothering to properly supportJun 13 01:09
ender2070there was a news article today which mentioned tomboy being added to default installs and starts in squeezeJun 13 01:10
DaemonFCand it's mainly because of software bloatJun 13 01:10
_Goblinwe were having a nice discussion about the Martyr of Mono before you turned up with this rubbish.Jun 13 01:10
ender2070perhaps hes pro-mono and trying to argue the space issue as a seperate oneJun 13 01:11
DaemonFCno, Mono should be ditchedJun 13 01:11
fewaender2070, cause whats on the CDs is determined by popularity-contestJun 13 01:11
DaemonFCthe space saves would mean more language packs can fit on each CDJun 13 01:11
DaemonFCand they'd only need probably 3 for every archJun 13 01:11
_GoblinSometimes I think DaemonFC is a bot.  He seems blissfully unaware of what people are actually saying....Jun 13 01:11
_Goblinhe reminds me of Andre Da Costa...Jun 13 01:12
ender2070lolJun 13 01:12
DaemonFCpopularity-contest does not determine what's in UbuntuJun 13 01:12
ender2070i keep mentioning fedora and ubuntu but its like a brick wallJun 13 01:12
DaemonFCbecause popularity-contest is not even installed or on by defaultJun 13 01:12
ender2070like anyone cares about mandriva, i personally dontJun 13 01:12
_Goblinyep thats just like AndreJun 13 01:12
fewaDaemonFC, there is a popcon in ubuntu tooJun 13 01:12
DaemonFCit's not onJun 13 01:12
DaemonFCso the only people who would have it on are people that find it in Synaptic and turn it onJun 13 01:12
DaemonFCthat's hardly a representative sampleJun 13 01:13
_Goblinsee?Jun 13 01:13
_GoblinNever quite getting the jist of the conversation.Jun 13 01:13
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DaemonFCgist you buffoonJun 13 01:13
DaemonFCGISTJun 13 01:13
fewaalways trying to change the topic tooJun 13 01:13
_Goblinah...Jun 13 01:13
_Goblinits quite an advanced bot then.Jun 13 01:14
_Goblinit can correct...Jun 13 01:14
DaemonFCas in "May a horse violate you and GIST all over you"Jun 13 01:14
DaemonFC:)Jun 13 01:14
_GoblinI think thats the first time DaemonFC has "won" any argument here.Jun 13 01:14
ender2070i think im gonna make an anti-spyware style of application for debian/ubuntu (and apt-get clones) that removes mono and other nastiesJun 13 01:14
ender2070just to shove it in their facesJun 13 01:14
ender2070lolJun 13 01:14
fewa 13 01:14
ender2070other than monononoJun 13 01:15
ender2070im talking about an app that makes it look like mono IS a virusJun 13 01:15
ender2070"GNU Defender" or some sortsJun 13 01:15
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] OpenSUSE Board Member Steps Down < >Jun 13 01:15
DaemonFCMono is inefficient with resource use, which negates the fact that the programs written in it are a little smaller on-diskJun 13 01:16
DaemonFCit makes Mono entirely inappropriate for low end PCs and netbooks on that aloneJun 13 01:16
DaemonFCyou go Netbook, you're talking maybe as little as 512 megs of RAMJun 13 01:17
_Goblin1gig on this XP one...Jun 13 01:17
_Goblinalthough the way it runs you would think it had around 64kJun 13 01:17
DaemonFChopefully Windows 7 will standardize them all with a gig just for the fact that they don't want two different hardware profilesJun 13 01:17
ender2070i have a q6600 @ 3.0ghz with 8gb of ram and 640gb hdd. i still think mono is unnessessary overheadJun 13 01:18
DaemonFCyou have to gut a Linux distribution to even get it to run at all on 256-512 megs of RAMJun 13 01:18
_Goblinwhose hoping?  I'm certainly not...Jun 13 01:18
DaemonFCI mean just totally forget about GNOME or KDEJun 13 01:18
_Goblinok..Jun 13 01:18
DaemonFCUbuntu won't even install on less than 256Jun 13 01:19
ender2070sometimes i just purge and run icewm for a little whileJun 13 01:19
DaemonFCit's not enough to even load the Live CDJun 13 01:19
_GoblinTry using Vista with 256Jun 13 01:19
fewaDaemonFC, what other systems install on less than 256?Jun 13 01:19
DaemonFCI'd call 512 megs a realistic minimum for GNOME distrosJun 13 01:19
DaemonFCXP will install with 64 megsJun 13 01:20
fewahave you used vista on 512?Jun 13 01:20
DaemonFCyou won't enjoy it though :)Jun 13 01:20
_GoblinWhats Gnome?Jun 13 01:20
fewahave you actually used a fresh XP?Jun 13 01:20
DaemonFCyesJun 13 01:20
fewaits uselessJun 13 01:20
DaemonFCI've used XP on as little as 128 megsJun 13 01:20
ender2070i used to run XP on a machine at my school with 64mbJun 13 01:20
DaemonFCnot really running great, but it will runJun 13 01:20
ender2070and it was an AMD Duron 900mhzJun 13 01:20
ender2070it was brutally slowJun 13 01:20
DaemonFCwell yeahJun 13 01:20
ender2070but at least it wasnt win98, which the other pc's hadJun 13 01:20
DaemonFCI'm jsut saying to use a full featured desktop requires more hardware than to slap XP on itJun 13 01:21
DaemonFCwhich is the reason all these OEMs are demanding XPJun 13 01:21
ender2070i dont know why they dont demand windows 2000Jun 13 01:21
DaemonFCthey want to totally cheap out on specsJun 13 01:22
DaemonFCand XP lets them get away with itJun 13 01:22
ender2070you can run win2k on 32mb ram and have the same application compatibilityJun 13 01:22
DaemonFCI know, Windows 2000 is a screaming meanie compared to any modern OSJun 13 01:22
ender2070ms probably has thousands of unsold 2000 licenses gathering dust tooJun 13 01:23
DaemonFCI have Windows 2000 on an older system and it's faster than this one with VistaJun 13 01:23
ender2070for sureJun 13 01:23
DaemonFC*facepalm*Jun 13 01:23
ender2070i have a 386 that will boot faster than ur 2000 oneJun 13 01:23
fewaI have a sheevaplug that will boot fasterJun 13 01:24
DaemonFCVista makes you fall asleep on the keyboard waiting to bootJun 13 01:24
DaemonFCCore 2 Duo with 4 gigs of RAM and it takes it a minute to bootJun 13 01:24
DaemonFCMandriva at least has that on itJun 13 01:24
DaemonFC20-25 seconds from power on to desktopJun 13 01:24
ender2070my ubuntu starts up in under 20 secondsJun 13 01:24
_Goblingentoo for me in about 14Jun 13 01:25
DaemonFCKDE is starting to grow on me in some waysJun 13 01:25
_Goblineh?Jun 13 01:25
DaemonFCI'm probably going to go to KDE 4.3 full timeJun 13 01:25
_Goblina fwJun 13 01:25
_Goblina few minutes ago you were slating you like it?Jun 13 01:25
ender2070i didnt actually measure it as i didnt think i would be subject to an e-peen contestJun 13 01:25
DaemonFC:)Jun 13 01:26
_GoblinDaemonFC, one of us is completely mad...either I have slipped into some sort of wierd deluded reality or you have...Jun 13 01:26
_Goblinwe can't possibly both be sane.Jun 13 01:26
ender2070goblinJun 13 01:26
ender2070its youJun 13 01:26
ender2070sorry to sayJun 13 01:26
_Goblinprobably...Jun 13 01:26
ender2070you mentioned running gentooJun 13 01:27
DaemonFCmaybe we're both insane in an incompatible mannorJun 13 01:27
DaemonFC*mannerJun 13 01:27
DaemonFClike Vista and LinuxJun 13 01:27
ender2070Linux is pretty saneJun 13 01:27
DaemonFCno, it's really notJun 13 01:27
DaemonFCLinux is schizophrenicJun 13 01:27
ender2070to you its notJun 13 01:27
ender2070because you're crazyJun 13 01:27
_GoblinI think maybe Ive slipped into some sort of wierd alternate dimension where right is left, 1+2=49 and Vista is actually good.Jun 13 01:28
DaemonFCwell, new users are typically overwhelmed by what a typical Linux setup makes them go throughJun 13 01:28
DaemonFCso I'm not surprised that distros like Ubuntu which take most of your choice away prevail over the traditional installerJun 13 01:29
_Goblinthats sounds like a description of marrage.Jun 13 01:29
DaemonFCUbuntu setup is more like WindowsJun 13 01:29
DaemonFCit has a defined state that you will reach no matter whatJun 13 01:30
_GoblinSo is Mandriva, Mint....Jun 13 01:30
DaemonFCnopeJun 13 01:30
_GoblinCrunchbangJun 13 01:30
DaemonFCtraditional installers either dump everything there is on youJun 13 01:30
DaemonFCor make you wade through package by packageJun 13 01:30
fewafedorJun 13 01:30
_GoblinI think you are doing a great diservice to average users to suggest they cant get their heads around most Linux installers.Jun 13 01:30
_GoblinNimbleXJun 13 01:31
_GoblinUbuntuSEJun 13 01:31
DaemonFCoh right, it's *only* half a dozen file systems, half a dozen desktop environmentsJun 13 01:31
_GoblinZenwalk.Jun 13 01:31
DaemonFC12,000 or so packagesJun 13 01:31
_Goblinok thats a jokeJun 13 01:31
_Goblinnot Zenwalk.Jun 13 01:31
_GoblinSlackware....Jun 13 01:32
DaemonFCUbuntu just tries to be sensible and basicJun 13 01:32
_Goblin"Once you try slack you never go back"Jun 13 01:32
DaemonFCand have most of what a typical user would expect to start withJun 13 01:32
_GoblinI disagree....Jun 13 01:33
_Goblinyou still have to install the Nvidia drivers yourself (or seperately)Jun 13 01:33
DaemonFCpeople like having choice taken away from themJun 13 01:33
_GoblinMandriva does that for you.Jun 13 01:33
DaemonFCnoJun 13 01:33
DaemonFCMandriva makes you grab it yourselfJun 13 01:33
DaemonFCunless you use the live CDJun 13 01:33
DaemonFCwhich isn't an option for decent hardwareJun 13 01:33
_Goblinand?Jun 13 01:33
fewaI think you are mistaken DaemonFCJun 13 01:34
DaemonFC32-bit x86Jun 13 01:34
fewayou are confusing control with guidanceJun 13 01:34
_Goblinso do I but Im too tired to argue.Jun 13 01:34
_GoblinproperlyJun 13 01:34
DaemonFCit will run but it can only see about 2.5-3.2 gigs of RAMJun 13 01:34
DaemonFCthat's nowhere close to what I haveJun 13 01:34
DaemonFCso I can't use Mandriva OneJun 13 01:34
schestowitzLinux servo dies.  < >Jun 13 01:35
_GoblinDaemonFC: Oh well. You win some you loose some.Jun 13 01:35
DaemonFCnot worth losing half your RAM to save 2 minutes installing driversJun 13 01:36
_GoblinIndeed.Jun 13 01:36
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DaemonXPdesktop going down for a fewJun 13 01:37
_GoblinYou seem to have a few probs keeping connection....Jun 13 01:38
DaemonXPjust rebooted itJun 13 01:38
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_GoblinIdentity crisis or just want a name change?Jun 13 01:40
*EricW is now known as EDavidBurgJun 13 01:41
_GoblinI am cracking up...nothing makes sense...Jun 13 01:41
kentmaoh god, is he still here?Jun 13 01:42
_Goblinwho?Jun 13 01:42
kentmathe Microsoft shill guyJun 13 01:42
_Goblinwhich one?  Take your pick....Jun 13 01:43
schestowitzWhcih one?Jun 13 01:43
schestowitzHehJun 13 01:43
kentmaDaemon I meant - which others are there?Jun 13 01:43
EDavidBurgI think they meant me since I changed nicksJun 13 01:43
ender2070theres ms shills here?Jun 13 01:43
_Goblincoincidently this morning we had a conversation about the names of groups of a Murder of Crowes, a confusion of monkeys..etcJun 13 01:43
_GoblinI wonder what a collection of MS shills is called?Jun 13 01:44
kentmaa sharabang of shillsJun 13 01:44
_GoblinlolJun 13 01:44
kentmaa sh1tload?Jun 13 01:44
ushimitsudokiAn enderle of shillsJun 13 01:44
kentmanah, too obvious.Jun 13 01:44
_GoblinI have another one btw....a collection of owls is?????Jun 13 01:44
kentmaa seminary of shills?Jun 13 01:44
ender2070i think i should change my name as its too similar to that douche enderleJun 13 01:44
_Goblina parliament.Jun 13 01:45
schestowitzI'll post some links in the morning. gnJun 13 01:45
_GoblingnJun 13 01:45
kentma_Goblin: I have a dictionary of such things downstairs...Jun 13 01:45
ushimitsudoki <-wiki knows allJun 13 01:45
_GoblinKentma, I like your sharabang name....Jun 13 01:45
_GoblinI think we should keep that one....Jun 13 01:45
kentma_Goblin: thanks... it sort of seems to fit.Jun 13 01:45
_Goblinyep. :)Jun 13 01:46
kentmaa bit like slartibartfast, sounds really rude without actually being so :-)Jun 13 01:46
_Goblinlol...Jun 13 01:46
kentmaapparently, Doug Adams started out with "fartiphuckborlz"Jun 13 01:46
_Goblinso youre a fan...?Jun 13 01:46
kentma_Goblin: ah, for sure.  Dirk Gently was on R4 recently.  On my mythtv box now :-)Jun 13 01:47
_Goblinby any chance a Dwarfer too?Jun 13 01:47
kentmaI rather like Red Dwarf, although in later series it was, at times, a little strained.  Interestingly, the 2nd book is a real work of art, though.Jun 13 01:47
kentmaThe concept of "better than life" is truly magnificent.Jun 13 01:48
_GoblinAgreed...Jun 13 01:48
_Goblinpersonally my favorite was the Mutton Vindaloo Curry monster.Jun 13 01:48
kentmaah, yes, that was excellent!Jun 13 01:48
_Goblinor Duane DibleyJun 13 01:49
_Goblinthe mans a God.Jun 13 01:49
kentma:-)Jun 13 01:49
_Goblinor how can we forget Mr Flibble?Jun 13 01:49
kentmaor rimmer's revision timetable?Jun 13 01:49
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_GoblinlolJun 13 01:50
_Goblingreat shows...Jun 13 01:50
kentmamy no2 son liked it so much he insisted on calling one of our PCs rimmer.Jun 13 01:50
_GoblinI think the easter special hit a little of the magic of the old series...Jun 13 01:50
kentmamark@giskard:~$ host rimmerJun 13 01:50
kentmarimmer.marknet has address 13 01:50
kentmamark@giskard:~$Jun 13 01:50
ender2070im a fan of orson scott card myself, tho douglas adams is awesomeJun 13 01:50
_Goblinbut I think where it went wrong later on was when they had CGI effects....the whole charm of Dwarf was that it looked so cheap and tacky.Jun 13 01:50
kentmaI tend to agree.  It was the screenplay which made it good, not the fx.Jun 13 01:51
kentmaand the acting, which was, in fact, pretty good.Jun 13 01:51
_Goblinthe curry monster wouldnt have been so funny if it had looked realistic...Jun 13 01:51
kentmaender2070: hence ender, I suppose?Jun 13 01:52
ender2070yesJun 13 01:52
_GoblinKentma...are you of the age to remember Tripods?Jun 13 01:52
ender20702070 ender's birthyear too i thinkJun 13 01:52
kentmaagreed.  The intelligent toaster... ah, yes tripods, 84-ish.  I was an undergrad then.Jun 13 01:53
_Goblinyou are roughly then around my age...Jun 13 01:53
kentmafunny, I don't recall tripods ever being shown again.Jun 13 01:53
_Goblinclassic series...Jun 13 01:53
_Goblinits on DVDJun 13 01:53
_Goblinand HMV have it discounted at the moment.Jun 13 01:54
kentmaI was also a huge fan of Blake's 7, although I was at school when it was on.  It was one of terry nation's finest ideas - much copied.Jun 13 01:54
ender2070you guys are oldJun 13 01:54
kentmaaha - that's interesting - I might just grab a copy!Jun 13 01:54
kentmaender2070: yes, sorry! :-)Jun 13 01:54
_GoblinguiltyJun 13 01:54
ender2070i was BORN in 84, lolJun 13 01:54
fewa 13 01:54
_GoblinHow about ......."The Invaders"Jun 13 01:54
kentmaah, then you're older than my kids :-DJun 13 01:54
kentmaa fascinating idea - more "contemporary" than most foreign sci fi.  More john wyndham than isaac asimov...Jun 13 01:55
_GoblinChocky?Jun 13 01:56
kentmaechos of the midwich cookooesJun 13 01:56
kentmacuckoos :-)Jun 13 01:56
kentmamore wyndham...Jun 13 01:56
kentmaI was thinking triffids/midwich cuckoos, though :-)Jun 13 01:57
_GoblinTriffids....yes....Cuckoos...not sure I caught that one...Jun 13 01:57
_GoblinTerrahawks!Jun 13 01:57
_GoblinUndergrad 84, you must have watched that!Jun 13 01:57
kentmaah, "alien" children which can converse telephathically over long distances... post apocalypse, though,Jun 13 01:58
kentmaindeedJun 13 01:58
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kentmaI used to like the tomorrow people, but mostly 'cos I really fancied the chinese girl on it :-)Jun 13 01:58
kentmashe was *really* cute.Jun 13 01:58
_Goblinremember the name...can't say I saw it....Jun 13 01:58
kentmaIt wasn't very good, except for...Jun 13 01:59
yuhongBTW, I switched blog software from MS's Live Spaces to Google Blogspot.Jun 13 02:01
_GoblinIve been very happy with Wordpress...Jun 13 02:01
kentmayuhong: away from MS probably isn't a bad idea.  I don't know how they'll stitch you up, but I'm sure they'll try, sometime...Jun 13 02:01
_GoblinSince most of my bits and pieces are with Google, it would probably make more sense for me, but Im sort of settled with Wordpress now....Jun 13 02:02
_Goblinright i must go to bed....Jun 13 02:02
_Goblingn all.Jun 13 02:02
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yuhongI then wrote a blog article on Apple's 64-bit transition and how it got disturbed by the Intel transition.Jun 13 02:02
yuhong 13 02:03
yuhongI recently talked about this on this IRC channel which inspired me to write this.Jun 13 02:03
kentmathey were thoroughly side-tracked, but really in the wrong direction.  IBM were coming up with cell, and ARM is getting, well, strong :-)Jun 13 02:04
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yuhongI will write more about this issue on my blog later.Jun 13 02:10
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-BNc/#boycottnovell-[tacone] joke of the day he really got me ! #mono !ubuntu #omgJun 13 02:10
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fewa 13 02:24
DaemonXP 13 02:27
DaemonXPEurope is going fascistJun 13 02:28
DaemonXPwho knew?Jun 13 02:28
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Azag?Jun 13 02:38
AzagByteCorrupto: por el acuerdo con m$?Jun 13 02:39
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*Nitsuga (n=agustin@ has left #boycottnovell ("Hasta luego a todos!")Jun 13 02:39
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ByteCorrupto?Jun 13 02:41
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twitternew topic?Jun 13 04:13
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yuhongOn lobbying, just talking to regulators isn't IMO corruption.Jun 13 05:36
yuhongBut paying them is.Jun 13 05:36
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locutu5helloJun 13 06:24
locutu5You out there Roy?Jun 13 06:27
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DaemonFCWhy in the hell are there torrents for Mandriva Powerpack?Jun 13 06:50
DaemonFCthe only difference is media codecsJun 13 06:51
DaemonFCare people too dense to add a repository?Jun 13 06:51
oiaohmMaybe they have machines not internet connected DaemonFCJun 13 06:59
DaemonFCthat doesn't make it OK to steal itJun 13 07:00
DaemonFCthey could just save the RPMs to a disc from a computer that does have the internetJun 13 07:00
oiaohmHumans are lazy DaemonFCJun 13 07:01
DaemonFCFirefox on Mandriva did worse than on FedoraJun 13 07:01
DaemonFCFirefox on Linux is scoring lower on Peacekeeper than IE on WindowsJun 13 07:02
DaemonFCthat doesn't seem rightJun 13 07:02
oiaohmDoes seam right.Jun 13 07:03
DaemonFCthere must be something wrong with Peacekeeper because there's no way Firefox on Linux is 4 times slower than on WindowsJun 13 07:03
oiaohmMandriva is missing some of the Fedora kernel corrections.Jun 13 07:03
oiaohmThat helps firefox perform better.Jun 13 07:03
DaemonFCoh waitJun 13 07:03
DaemonFCduhJun 13 07:04
DaemonFCI'm using 3.0 on Mandriva right nowJun 13 07:04
DaemonFCFedora has 3.5b4Jun 13 07:04
DaemonFCstill ouchJun 13 07:04
DaemonFCFirefox 3 on Linux is 820Jun 13 07:04
oiaohm3.0 on Fedora still would be faster than MandrivaJun 13 07:04
DaemonFCIE 8 on Windows was like 860 I thinkJun 13 07:04
oiaohmFirefox by pure luck hit lot of kernel and graphical problems in Linux.Jun 13 07:05
DaemonFCenough to where it's slower than Internet Explorer?Jun 13 07:05
oiaohmYep.Jun 13 07:05
DaemonFCthat's badJun 13 07:06
DaemonFCdamn!!!Jun 13 07:06
DaemonFCOpera 10 CREAMS FirefoxJun 13 07:06
oiaohmNewer versions of kernels reduces problems.Jun 13 07:06
DaemonFCOpera 10 got 1424Jun 13 07:06
oiaohmSame with newer versions of X11Jun 13 07:06
DaemonFCFF got 820Jun 13 07:06
oiaohmAlso complier selection is partly to blame.Jun 13 07:06
oiaohmRebuild FF with llvm and you have a speed gain just there.Jun 13 07:07
DaemonFCI'll probably just make Opera my default til Firefox gets their shit togetherJun 13 07:07
DaemonFCthis is unreasonableJun 13 07:07
oiaohmIts not firefox fault completely.Jun 13 07:07
DaemonFCif I wanted to use Internet Explorer, I could just boot into WindowsJun 13 07:07
oiaohmlinux has many areas where it can get faster.Jun 13 07:08
DaemonFCit's obviously not the fault of Linux that Firefox is a slow piece of shitJun 13 07:08
DaemonFCif OPERA can be nearly twice as fast as FFJun 13 07:08
oiaohmOpera is using QT that use opengl to avoid X11 troubles.Jun 13 07:09
DaemonFCQT 3 does?Jun 13 07:09
oiaohmYepJun 13 07:09
DaemonFCwell whateverJun 13 07:09
oiaohmFF is using GTK and using general X11 rendering.Jun 13 07:09
*DaemonFC deletes Firefox icons and makes Opera the default in GNOME prefsJun 13 07:09
oiaohmYes it hurts.Jun 13 07:09
oiaohmAs I say FF manages to hit every single weak point.Jun 13 07:10
oiaohmfsync filesystem glitch Yep FF hit that.Jun 13 07:10
DaemonFCOpera 10 actually looks really goodJun 13 07:10
DaemonFCOn MandrivaJun 13 07:10
oiaohmX11 poor rendering path.  Yep FF hit that.Jun 13 07:10
DaemonFCblends in with Ia Ora quite wellJun 13 07:11
oiaohmBasically Firefox is a good item to watch to see some of the internal improvements coming.Jun 13 07:12
DaemonFCOpera really kills Firefox on CanvasJun 13 07:12
DaemonFCthe tables have turnedJun 13 07:13
DaemonFCI used to not want to have anything to do with Opera on LinuxJun 13 07:13
DaemonFCbut now Firefox is the one with severe problemsJun 13 07:14
oiaohmNot severe.  Most of the solutions to Firefox's problems exist just not in distributions yet.Jun 13 07:14
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oiaohmThe head ache is getting all the dri2 drivers out there.Jun 13 07:15
DaemonFCoiaohm: 13 07:15
DaemonFCI'm not bullshitting hereJun 13 07:16
DaemonFCOpera rapes Firefox on LinuxJun 13 07:16
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twitterRMS understands government blacklists, " Restricting specific people's activities is punishment, whether you call it that or not; punishing people without convicting them of a crime cannot be excused." June 2009 (Judgment puts future of control orders in doubt)Jun 13 07:19
twitterlet's hope for an outbreak of commons sense on "terrorist watch lists" soon.Jun 13 07:19
oiaohmCurrently waiting on 2.6.30 kernel to build DaemonFCJun 13 07:24
DaemonFCFred Phelps should be convicted of Crimes Against HumanityJun 13 07:25
DaemonFCthe UK banning the son of a bitch was light compared to what needs done to himJun 13 07:25
DaemonFCdeclaring him persona non grata is just a show of good taste if you ask meJun 13 07:26
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DaemonFCunfortunately Firefox has become the Internet Explorer of Linux :PJun 13 07:40
DaemonFCslow, stupid, and so deeply rooted in that it's hard to get rid of without taking out half the system including the help centerJun 13 07:40
oiaohmSo you are running gnome.Jun 13 07:46
oiaohmI run kde it has very little tied to FirefoxJun 13 07:47
DaemonFCWell, unfortunately KDE is its own can of wormsJun 13 07:48
DaemonFCbut it's getting closer to not being all that badJun 13 07:49
DaemonFCby 4.3 I'm sure all the worst problems will be behind themJun 13 07:49
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schestowitz 13 08:11
DaemonFCoh yayJun 13 08:15
DaemonFCNovell ads on my blogJun 13 08:15
DaemonFCmaybe I should just go all Harry Potter and refer to them as "The distro who shall not be named"Jun 13 08:16
DaemonFCfucking Google adsJun 13 08:16
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schestowitzNovell? What context?Jun 13 08:21
schestowitzI see you ditched "XP"Jun 13 08:21
DaemonFCdifferent computerJun 13 08:22
schestowitzRed Hat: Go big or play it safe? 13 08:22
DaemonFCactually, the only thing I mentioned was Fedora in that postJun 13 08:22
EDavidBurgMy 16gb flash drive got here todayJun 13 08:22
EDavidBurgwootJun 13 08:22
DaemonFCand how to go about building Sauerbraten since they don't package itJun 13 08:22
DaemonFC 13 08:30
DaemonFCroflJun 13 08:30
DaemonFC"In order to solve this bug, I suggest to add manually a few choosen bugs in Dapper. I also suggest that we don't install X as a default. Lynx and mutt should replace Firefox and Evolution as default. In order to cope with the freesoftware spirit, you would be prompted to accept the full GPL each time you log in or you start an application. The login sound would be replaced by "Free Software Song" and the official documentation wJun 13 08:30
DaemonFCthe "Linux Kernel development" book."Jun 13 08:30
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] Canonical Looking for KDE Developer < >Jun 13 08:30
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] Linus: "My real "work" is not really writing code any more, and hasn't been for a long time." 13 08:30
DaemonFCthough Lynx and Mutt are definitely less bloated...Jun 13 08:31
DaemonFChe may be onto somethingJun 13 08:31
schestowitzBenchmarks: gtk+ engines revisited < >Jun 13 08:34
DaemonFCI'd really like to know why anyone in 2009 would check their email from a command lineJun 13 08:34
DaemonFCactually, no I wouldn'tJun 13 08:34
schestowitz 13 08:35
schestowitzShame really... F10 was betterJun 13 08:35
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schestowitzLinus uses pineJun 13 08:36
*DaemonFC replaces schestowitz's GTK+ engine with Redmond95Jun 13 08:36
*DaemonFC then installs IEs For Linux and makes it his default browserJun 13 08:36
DaemonFC:)Jun 13 08:36
DaemonFCyeah, I didn't have the best of hopes for F11 when the most compelling features were things nobody would notice even if they went wellJun 13 08:37
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DaemonFCthe largest difference between most distros at the user level are what theme they default toJun 13 08:38
DaemonFCideally nobody should ever even have to know what RPM isJun 13 08:38
DaemonFCor what Dpkg isJun 13 08:38
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DaemonFCthe fact that most Linux users can even tell you shows that something is very wrongJun 13 08:39
schestowitzNo.Jun 13 08:39
DaemonFCnobody should have to careJun 13 08:39
schestowitzPeople who use Windows may not know Java eitherJun 13 08:39
DaemonFCit should be "I click it it works, the end"Jun 13 08:40
schestowitzIt worksJun 13 08:40
schestowitzYou're just trolling.Jun 13 08:40
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DaemonFCall too often it fails with some bizarre errorJun 13 08:40
schestowitzNo.Jun 13 08:40
DaemonFCand you have to go hunt down whatever the holdup isJun 13 08:40
schestowitzFUD.Jun 13 08:40
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] People must remember that MS is unique here due to 90s crimes. This is a lot of spin.Jun 13 08:40
DaemonFCand that's how you learn all the gruesome detailsJun 13 08:40
DaemonFCor your distro refuses to package it for whatever reasonJun 13 08:41
DaemonFCand so that falls on you to compile itJun 13 08:41
DaemonFC(or switch to Ubuntu)Jun 13 08:41
DaemonFC:PJun 13 08:41
DaemonFCFedora and Sauerbraten are a good example "zOMG!!!1111 Teh artwork isn't FREEEEEEEEEEEE!!!!111"Jun 13 08:42
DaemonFCtime to bust out gcc-c++Jun 13 08:42
DaemonFCthey have a Virtual Richard Stallman that tells you what's non-free on your system, I should be an ass and make a Virtual Steve BallmerJun 13 08:44
DaemonFCthat lists what's non-free and congratulates the userJun 13 08:44
schestowitzI'm just going to ignore you cause you trollJun 13 08:45
DaemonFCthen it asks for a licensing fee for MonoJun 13 08:45
DaemonFCwhich will be added the next time they swipe their card at WalmartJun 13 08:46
schestowitz ..Jun 13 08:47
DaemonFCVLC performs pretty well on MandrivaJun 13 08:49
DaemonFCunusually wellJun 13 08:49
schestowitz"While my ATI card works great in Ubuntu, I cannot say the same quite yet when I use it in my preferred Distro of Arch Linux.  The driver install process is quite simple; instead of installing the “nvidia” package I installed the “xf86-video-ati” package.  This gave me my usual looking snappy desktop.  But as I learned later, ATI is not the most Linux-friendly piece of hardware out there."Jun 13 08:50
schestowitz 13 08:50
DaemonFCwell no shitJun 13 08:51
DaemonFChehJun 13 08:51
DaemonFCthat's why my laptop is on XPJun 13 08:51
DaemonFCthere's no Linux driver that works right for the ATI chipset in itJun 13 08:51
DaemonFCso they just heat up the CPU to where you could fry an egg on itJun 13 08:52
schestowitzWill Linux and Mac Desktop Adoption Ever Reach the 20 of the 80/20 Rule? < >Jun 13 08:52
schestowitzThis is stupid. Nothing lasts forever.Jun 13 08:52
schestowitzTo assume Windows will always be there is to assume slavery too  ought to have lasted todayJun 13 08:53
DaemonFCWindows will be around for some time to comeJun 13 08:53
DaemonFCprobably well into the next decade at the very leastJun 13 08:54
DaemonFCto think it will just disappear is naiveJun 13 08:54
oiaohmReally none of us have a crystal ball.Jun 13 08:54
DaemonFCI'm just saying they could go for years just on the inertia they haveJun 13 08:55
DaemonFCeven assuming it does start dying downJun 13 08:55
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] PCLinuxOS Appstore Launched < >Jun 13 08:55
oiaohmSame was said about apple in desktop publishing at one point.Jun 13 08:55
oiaohmThe inertia MS has could vaporize very quickly.Jun 13 08:56
DaemonFCthey have themselves dug in to last for a while assuming everything goes wrong that canJun 13 08:56
schestowitzHypnosis.Jun 13 08:56
schestowitz"Microsoft is rich!!"Jun 13 08:57
schestowitz[so why is it borrowing money?]Jun 13 08:57
schestowitz"Windows is on 99.99% of desktops?"Jun 13 08:57
DaemonFCit's on 89%Jun 13 08:57
schestowitz[So why does Ballmer slide show it with about 7% market share?]Jun 13 08:57
DaemonFClast time I checkedJun 13 08:57
DaemonFCwhich is actually an improvement , it peaked at around 96%Jun 13 08:57
schestowitz"Net Application sez this and that"Jun 13 08:57
schestowitz[so why does Net Applications admit their its OWN numbers are incorrect?]Jun 13 08:58
DaemonFClosing most of the customers that leave to AppleJun 13 08:58
oiaohmApple has never been able to take MS on in business due to lack of centeral management of clients.Jun 13 08:58
oiaohmLinux and Apple in theory could get that as the same solution.Jun 13 08:58
schestowitzLinux and Apple work together alrightJun 13 08:59
schestowitzSamba and allJun 13 08:59
schestowitzPut some Macs, some Linux, integrate with UNIXJun 13 08:59
schestowitzMany things Macs won't do Linux will be able to handle and fill the gapJun 13 08:59
schestowitzNot just server tasks either.Jun 13 08:59
oiaohmAnd vice verser.Jun 13 08:59
DaemonFConce a company has a Mac version, it's not all that hard to get a Linux version runningJun 13 08:59
schestowitzWhat on a desktop can Macs do that linux can't? MS officeJun 13 09:00
DaemonFCso more Mac users is a good thing for LinuxJun 13 09:00
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schestowitzEven MS Office runs in Linux if someone wants Jun 13 09:00
oiaohmThis is why MS many not last 5 years.Jun 13 09:00
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] "Firefox 3.0.11 was downloaded about 150 million times in the last 24 hours." 13 09:00
oiaohmBecause they will not be facing a fragmented system.Jun 13 09:00
DaemonFCschestowitz: They have the whole "ready to go" advantageJun 13 09:00
oiaohmThey will be facing a system build on standards that join everything up into a usable system.Jun 13 09:01
DaemonFCLinux just doesn't unless you get a paid version or at least one that makes it simple on the userJun 13 09:01
DaemonFCeven if you got Mandriva Powerpack, you still need PLF stuff before you can encode to most formats in use todayJun 13 09:02
DaemonFCso it's kind of pointlessJun 13 09:02
oiaohmAnd how much of that is required by business.Jun 13 09:02
DaemonFCPowerpack is really more of a donation to Mandriva than a practical upgrade to FreeJun 13 09:02
DaemonFCit has the Fluendo playback pack, some freeware, and some trial versions of stuffJun 13 09:04
DaemonFCCedega used to be the full version, now jsut a trialJun 13 09:04
DaemonFCLightZone is totally worth buying from them though if you need something that can take on PhotoshopJun 13 09:05
DaemonFC 13 09:06
DaemonFCyeah, there it isJun 13 09:06
DaemonFCthat's basically the best you'll do on Linux for graphics workJun 13 09:06
DaemonFCprofessional-quality that isJun 13 09:06
oiaohmThe point not all users in a business need to do that.Jun 13 09:08
oiaohmLot of workers are just data processes.Jun 13 09:08
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DaemonFCsomeone asked what can the Mac do that Linux is not generally known to do wellJun 13 09:09
schestowitzMandriva earns from large contractsJun 13 09:09
schestowitzGovernments, schools, etc.Jun 13 09:09
schestowitzRussia, Brazil, France..Jun 13 09:09
DaemonFCyeah, there's no profit selling to one user here and one over thereJun 13 09:09
DaemonFCit's been triedJun 13 09:10
DaemonFCit doesn't workJun 13 09:10
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] Palm's Linux phone runs Doom. 13 09:10
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DaemonFCso does RockboxJun 13 09:12
*kentma has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out))Jun 13 09:14
DaemonFC 13 09:14
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] - Editor's Note: Ubuntu Is Not Our SaviorJun 13 09:15
DaemonFCCodeina is actually useful if not a bit irritatingJun 13 09:16
DaemonFCit will offer you the right codecs but it always lists "Buy from Fluendo" before the packages in your repoJun 13 09:16
schestowitzMSI garbage.. 13 09:19
schestowitzFedora 11 dropped the ball, that's why it's great to have many distros < >Jun 13 09:20
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] KPhotoAlbum - now open for new contributions < > Good way to help popular programs and code for fun.Jun 13 09:20
schestowitz 13 09:21
DaemonFCKubuntu has gotten surprisingly better but still has weak package managementJun 13 09:21
DaemonFCKPackageKit does not list all available packagesJun 13 09:21
DaemonFCand this leaves you with hidden packages which are in your repo but can only be installed if you know they're there, directly through apt-getJun 13 09:22
DaemonFCWHY does nobody just port Synaptic to QT?Jun 13 09:23
DaemonFCit would be so much better and it would have Kubuntu using the same package system as UbuntuJun 13 09:23
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] Dutch government using more Free software: 13 09:25
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schestowitzI'll get working on some daily linksJun 13 09:29
DaemonFCMandriva really startled me with 2009 SpringJun 13 09:29
DaemonFCeverything just works so wellJun 13 09:29
DaemonFCthey even made GNOME not uglyJun 13 09:30
DaemonFCwell, that's been the case ever since Ia OraJun 13 09:30
schestowitzDigital Tipping Point: Kina Grannis, YouTube celebrity 01 (2007) 13 09:31
schestowitz[OGG]Jun 13 09:31
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] Another Microsoft exec quits. 13 10:05
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schestowitz I saw it earlier. No smoke though. Am I missing something?Jun 13 10:18
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-BNc/#boycottnovell-[trmanco] ♺ @schestowitz: "Firefox 3.0.11 was downloaded about 150 million times in the last 24 hours." 13 11:00
DaemonFCauto updates will do thatJun 13 11:05
DaemonFCin other news, IE 8 was downloaded about 80 bazillion times through Windows UpdateJun 13 11:05
DaemonFCmaking it all kinds of crazy delicious by pure fabrication of numbersJun 13 11:05
DaemonFC:)Jun 13 11:05
DaemonFCseriously though, they make it sound like people are going crazy and downloading it like there's no tomorrow over a security patch blobJun 13 11:06
DaemonFCnot because Firefox is programmed to auto updateJun 13 11:07
DaemonFCspeaking of securityJun 13 11:07
DaemonFCthis one patches 9 security holes in Firefox, including 4 criticalJun 13 11:08
DaemonFC:)Jun 13 11:08
DaemonFCand 1 arbitrary code executionJun 13 11:08
DaemonFC 13 11:08
DaemonFC(my favorite)Jun 13 11:09
DaemonFCFirefox is very much as dangerous as MSIE, they just have a better turn around time with patches and the auto updates get them out before a malicious person can study the patch and make an expoit based off of itJun 13 11:10
DaemonFCOpera on the other hand has far fewer vulnerabilities in the first placeJun 13 11:11
DaemonFCif you follow Secunia, you'll see a patternJun 13 11:11
DaemonFC 13 11:12
DaemonFCMozilla Firefox Multiple VulnerabilitiesJun 13 11:12
DaemonFCImpact: Security BypassJun 13 11:12
DaemonFCSpoofingJun 13 11:12
DaemonFCExposure of sensitive informationJun 13 11:12
DaemonFCDoSJun 13 11:12
DaemonFCSystem accessJun 13 11:12
oiaohmThe funny thing is when you look at effected OS's.Jun 13 11:13
oiaohmLot of FF Vulnerabilities don't effect Linux or OS XJun 13 11:13
DaemonFCthey could easilyJun 13 11:14
DaemonFCthat arbitrary code execution one could wipe out your home folder on LinuxJun 13 11:14
DaemonFCwith a javascriptJun 13 11:14
oiaohmdepJun 13 11:14
DaemonFCthat's not going to hel[pJun 13 11:14
DaemonFC*helpJun 13 11:14
oiaohmBlocks still a lot of the bugs.Jun 13 11:15
DaemonFCOpera 9 13 11:15
DaemonFCUnpatched 0% (0 of 22 Secunia advisories)Jun 13 11:15
DaemonFCthat's pretty good that 9.x has been out since like 2005 I thinkJun 13 11:16
DaemonFCand only 22 vulnerabilities and all patchedJun 13 11:17
DaemonFCFirefox and MSIE patch at least 10 a monthJun 13 11:17
DaemonFCso far MSIE 8 has had 8 vulnerabilitiesJun 13 11:18
DaemonFCand has 1 unpatchedJun 13 11:18
DaemonFCMSIE 7 has had 84 and has 8 unpatchedJun 13 11:19
oiaohm35331 test code does not work with dep enabled because it protects the java /javascript bridge flaw.Jun 13 11:19
DaemonFCMSIE 6 has 154 with 21 unpatchedJun 13 11:19
DaemonFCthat's fairly disturbing :PJun 13 11:19
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DaemonFCbut if you look by sheer numbers, IE 7 has been out 3 years, and IE 6 has been out 8 yearsJun 13 11:20
maxstirner <- this is great: "Who do you guys think you are? OpenSuse?"Jun 13 11:21
DaemonFCso IE 6 has had 25.6 security holes discovered per year on averageJun 13 11:21
DaemonFCand IE 7 has had 28Jun 13 11:21
DaemonFCso statistically, IE 7 is not safer than IE 6Jun 13 11:22
oiaohmMozilla quite common to get to 0 unpatched.Jun 13 11:22
oiaohmIE for some reason never is able to reach that.Jun 13 11:22
DaemonFCbut Firefox is more dangerous yetJun 13 11:23
DaemonFCFirefox 3 has been out almost exactly on yearJun 13 11:23
oiaohmHow do you say that.Jun 13 11:23
DaemonFCwith 88 security holesJun 13 11:23
DaemonFCmeaning it's 4 times more dangerous than IE 6Jun 13 11:23
DaemonFCstatisticallyJun 13 11:23
oiaohmagain this is a difference.Jun 13 11:23
DaemonFC*oneJun 13 11:23
oiaohmNot all IE flaws get reported.Jun 13 11:24
DaemonFCthere's more people looking to exploit IEJun 13 11:24
DaemonFCand a lot of them get discovered with live attack codeJun 13 11:24
oiaohmYou find a lot on secunia on firefox that are reported by Mozilla themselves.Jun 13 11:24
DaemonFCthere have been a few attack sites set up for FirefoxJun 13 11:24
DaemonFCbut it was patched quick enough that they went unnoticedJun 13 11:24
oiaohmYet none from MS.Jun 13 11:25
oiaohmSo allowance for bias has to be applied.Jun 13 11:25
DaemonFCstill doesn't explain why Opera has averages only 5-6 per yearJun 13 11:25
DaemonFC*averagedJun 13 11:26
DaemonFCwhile Microsoft averages 25-28Jun 13 11:26
DaemonFCand Mozilla almost 90Jun 13 11:26
DaemonFCOf course Mozilla reports their own flawsJun 13 11:27
DaemonFCthey're open source, it would look strange if they were fixing them in silence and trying to keep a lid on itJun 13 11:28
oiaohmMozilla numbers are explainable.Jun 13 11:29
oiaohmMicrosoft no so much.Jun 13 11:29
oiaohmLot of Mozilla reported flaws are not that exploitable.Jun 13 11:30
oiaohmThe big problem with flaw numbers is everyone is not playing by the same rules DaemonFCJun 13 11:34
oiaohmYep my old firefox 3.0 picked up a nice 15 percent boost in performance switching to 2.6.30 kernelJun 13 11:40
oiaohmFrom 2.6.28Jun 13 11:40
oiaohmOk not enough to catch IE.Jun 13 11:41
oiaohmI am still running old X11.Jun 13 11:41
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trmancoyeah, IE is closed source and not even like that they can protect there usersJun 13 11:45
trmancoin firefox anybody can take a peak an see if it has vulnsJun 13 11:45
trmancoeverything is/gets public, it's like like IEJun 13 11:46
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[davidgerard] n410c out of action. adapter cable plastic melted! fixable with soldering iron. now on @arkadyrose's dell c610.Jun 13 11:50
trmanco 13 11:55
schestowitzMicrosoft lies about patchesJun 13 11:58
schestowitzIt's well recorded that they do thisJun 13 11:58
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oiaohmRight looks Like I have found my first annoyance with 2.6.30 Linux kernel.  Need to ionice fuse filesystems when using a media player off them so media player does not end up stuck without data.Jun 13 12:10
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[davidgerard] I am now if you care.Jun 13 12:10
DaemonFC 13 12:10
DaemonFCmy Kubuntu desktopJun 13 12:11
oiaohmThe click is gone from when opening terminals with 2.6.30Jun 13 12:19
trmancowtfJun 13 12:19
trmancoweren't you a kde hater/basher?Jun 13 12:20
oiaohmWho better to hate than a user.Jun 13 12:20
trmanco"The current thusnelda encoder is somewhere betweenJun 13 12:21
trmancoxvid and x264."Jun 13 12:21
trmancoit looks nice and slickJun 13 12:21
DaemonFC 13 12:25
DaemonFCand MandrivaJun 13 12:25
trmancousing opera hunJun 13 12:26
DaemonFCmmhmJun 13 12:27
trmancoand banshee I seeJun 13 12:27
maxstirneryuckJun 13 12:27
maxstirner:dJun 13 12:27
DaemonFC 13 12:28
DaemonFChehJun 13 12:28
trmanco...Jun 13 12:28
trmancoit looks like e ripoff of rhythmboxJun 13 12:29
DaemonFCnahJun 13 12:31
DaemonFCBanshee actually has better ripping options ;)Jun 13 12:31
DaemonFChehJun 13 12:31
trmancololJun 13 12:31
DaemonFCfuck gnote, port Banshee to C++Jun 13 12:32
DaemonFCsomething usefulJun 13 12:32
trmancoyeahJun 13 12:32
trmancoexcept for the fuck gnote part...Jun 13 12:32
DaemonFCwell, it's not how I would have prioritized porting things off MonoJun 13 12:32
trmancoI just don't use rhythmbox because it has no EqJun 13 12:32
DaemonFCbut hell, it'sthem doing it, so their callJun 13 12:32
trmancobanshee might be harder to portJun 13 12:33
schestowitz 13 12:33
DaemonFCprobablyJun 13 12:33
DaemonFCmuch more complicated programJun 13 12:33
schestowitzWe already have amarokJun 13 12:33
schestowitzNo need to port cra*Jun 13 12:33
DaemonFCunfortunately that's QT/KDEJun 13 12:34
MinceR"unfortunately"?Jun 13 12:34
DaemonFCright, Banshee is the only native GNOME app that matches up to AmarokJun 13 12:34
trmancoI'm afraid that's trueJun 13 12:34
trmanco:|Jun 13 12:34
DaemonFCit would take 161 megs of disk space to bring in Amarok and its dependenciesJun 13 12:35
DaemonFCit takes 12 megs to bring in BansheeJun 13 12:35
MinceRyou only need to bring in qt and kdelibs once, then you can stop complaining about qt/kde appsJun 13 12:35
schestowitzHehe. 13 12:35
DaemonFCI don't want, use, or need anyJun 13 12:36
DaemonFCif I did want KDE on this computer I would put it on this computerJun 13 12:36
DaemonFC 13 12:36
DaemonFCbesidesJun 13 12:36
DaemonFCAmarok wants to bring in most of KDEJun 13 12:37
DaemonFClook at that picJun 13 12:37
trmancoI use Audacious, it's the only light fast and great app that has a proper Eq systemaJun 13 12:37
trmancosystem*Jun 13 12:37
MinceRi use audacious tooJun 13 12:37
MinceRbecause of its wide format supportJun 13 12:37
trmanco:-)Jun 13 12:37
DaemonFCwhenever I use a KDE distro it seems like I always end up with half of GNOME anywayJun 13 12:38
benJImanDaemonFC: You do realise that even at minimum wage people earn 150gigabytes per hour?Jun 13 12:38
DaemonFCbut when I use GNOME, I don't need any of KDEJun 13 12:38
benJIman150gb costs less than a single meal.Jun 13 12:38
DaemonFCright, but I still don't feel like making a damned messJun 13 12:38
benJImanSo 150mb is nothing.Jun 13 12:38
schestowitz*LOL* 13 12:38
trmancoI just noticedJun 13 12:39
trmancoFC and not XPJun 13 12:40
trmancohehJun 13 12:40
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[trmanco] ♺ @fta: Chromifox Extreme => :) #chromiumJun 13 12:40
DaemonFC"I wish I could fly like normal"Jun 13 12:41
DaemonFCtoo funnyJun 13 12:41
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trmanco:)Jun 13 12:42
trmancomy isp sucks at privacyJun 13 12:42
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trmanconeatJun 13 12:43
DaemonFChmmm, I wonder if Banshee will ever play DVDsJun 13 12:47
DaemonFCit can play video filesJun 13 12:47
oiaohmBanshee you have the .net runtime.Jun 13 12:50
schestowitzGeorge Carlin: The Ten Commandments < >Jun 13 12:54
schestowitztrmanco: yes, he's trollin'Jun 13 12:54
maxstirnerschestowitz: christians are such easy targets for comedy ;)Jun 13 12:56
schestowitzI think it's any religion in generalJun 13 12:57
schestowitzBut Carlin is brilliant in generalJun 13 12:57
schestowitzHis skit on war are funnyJun 13 12:57
maxstirner <- i like bill hicksJun 13 12:58
*schestowitz looksJun 13 12:59
maxstirnerunfortunately he died of cancer in early 90s..Jun 13 13:00
DaemonFCyesJun 13 13:02
DaemonFCthey don't sue like Scientology doesJun 13 13:02
DaemonFCso kind of themJun 13 13:02
DaemonFC:)Jun 13 13:02
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schestowitzmaxstirner: oh, I see...Jun 13 13:05
schestowitzI heard some of those jokes beforeJun 13 13:05
DaemonFCschestowitz: I got some messages earlier from the system saying it was checking the security statusJun 13 13:05
DaemonFCand that everything was OKJun 13 13:05
DaemonFCsomething new in Mandriva?Jun 13 13:05
schestowitz"He put em there [dinosaurs] to test our faith.."Jun 13 13:05
maxstirnergod is testing us is a classicJun 13 13:06
maxstirnerhe actually did these flying saucer tours where he deliberately went to do educate the hillbilly US southJun 13 13:06
schestowitzI think it's like the "miracle" placeholderJun 13 13:07
schestowitzSome people refuse to argue backJun 13 13:07
schestowitzOthers use magicJun 13 13:07
DaemonFCschestowitz: The south isn't all like that, t here's patchesJun 13 13:07
schestowitzDawkins is too aggressive, IMHOJun 13 13:07
schestowitzBut I think it's important to just encourage discussionJun 13 13:08
DaemonFCif you get into larger cities it gets much more *normal*Jun 13 13:08
maxstirner <- bbs obituaryJun 13 13:08
schestowitzA lot of things like global warming get ignored under similar premises like "an invisible man who will mend everything"Jun 13 13:08
maxstirneriw as actually a fan of the UK there is prob no god bus advertisingJun 13 13:09
schestowitzOr that death is acceptable with the supposition og afterlifeJun 13 13:09
DaemonFCwhich is why business has a vested interest in religionJun 13 13:09
maxstirnerespecially when all the fundamentalists started whining in the UK pressJun 13 13:09
DaemonFCwho cares how much they pollute if we're all going to heaven?Jun 13 13:09
DaemonFC:PJun 13 13:09
maxstirnertheir propaganda is permissible of courseJun 13 13:09
schestowitzI never thought about it that wayJun 13 13:09
schestowitzBut authorities liked itJun 13 13:09
schestowitzNever thought about businessJun 13 13:10
schestowitzBack in the old days it was a WONDERFUL way to control mindsJun 13 13:10
DaemonFCdon't worry, while we're dying of poisoning and natural disasters, rich people will be quite safeJun 13 13:10
schestowitzAnother issue is glorification of peopleJun 13 13:10
DaemonFCthey can afford bunkers and purified waterJun 13 13:10
DaemonFC:)Jun 13 13:10
maxstirner <- Bill Hicks on AdvertisingJun 13 13:10
schestowitzLike the whole "BillG is a saint" spielJun 13 13:10
maxstirnerthey love him nowJun 13 13:11
maxstirnerits like the Rockefeller foundation, he was one of the most hated people alive before he started getting all philanth.Jun 13 13:11
schestowitzMicrosoft is a marketing companyJun 13 13:14
schestowitzThey focus more on making press than making productsJun 13 13:14
schestowitzJust look at Waggener EndstromJun 13 13:14
schestowitzBallmer married of of them :-)Jun 13 13:15
schestowitzIt's not philanthropy, it's marketing. They also use marketing people to promote that image and attack dissent.Jun 13 13:16
maxstirnerwell whatever it is, i'm not impressed since the cash was stolen in the first place ;)Jun 13 13:17
schestowitzInto a tax-free gutterJun 13 13:19
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schestowitzWe've had so many trolls recently that I hardly manage to make postsJun 13 13:20
maxstirnerwasting time on absurd "debates"Jun 13 13:21
schestowitzNot exactlyJun 13 13:22
schestowitzMore like abusive trollsJun 13 13:22
schestowitzAnd distraction and smearsJun 13 13:22
schestowitzVeyr unpleasantJun 13 13:22
maxstirneri've been following it..Jun 13 13:22
schestowitzI really enjoy writing, but when people start going personal then it's annoyingJun 13 13:23
schestowitzIt also lacks valueJun 13 13:23
schestowitzLike..Jun 13 13:23
schestowitzIf you look at IRC logs from some days agoJun 13 13:23
schestowitzThey dilute the discussionJun 13 13:23
maxstirneryour site is a real threat to the .NET implementors, so you get all the guerrilla marketing crowd working your comments etcJun 13 13:23
schestowitzJust lots of just drowning out signalJun 13 13:23
schestowitzAnd BN wrote a lot about site incidents, not the topic, not the issuesJun 13 13:24
schestowitzThey took it up to reddit and Linux TodayJun 13 13:24
schestowitzSome Novell employees tooJun 13 13:24
maxstirnerwell, locally it's been revealed that even the (semi-privatised) german railway corporates employ people to post positive comments on message boards and blogsJun 13 13:26
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maxstirneri wouldn't expect any less from the largest megacorp in the industry, which is now in deep shitJun 13 13:26
_Hicham_Hi All!Jun 13 13:26
maxstirnerhelloJun 13 13:26
_Hicham_ah DaemonFC, back againJun 13 13:27
_Hicham_what are u doing today Mr DaemonFC?Jun 13 13:27
schestowitzmaxstirner: sounds typicalJun 13 13:34
schestowitzIn Italy there's the telecom cartelJun 13 13:34
schestowitz_Hicham_: oh, no... don't feed emJun 13 13:34
maxstirnerits the only way now, with the democratisation of media; in the past you could just purchase tv timeJun 13 13:35
schestowitzI guess they just find other scumJun 13 13:37
schestowitzDid you know about TwitterJun 13 13:37
schestowitzSome ethically criminal companies are starting pay2post services around thatJun 13 13:38
schestowitzWe need law against thatJun 13 13:38
schestowitzThe EC had a law coming into effect last yearJun 13 13:38
maxstirneras they would.. its same with blogging isnt itJun 13 13:38
schestowitzBut it's not being enforcedJun 13 13:38
maxstirnerdeclaration of interests?Jun 13 13:38
maxstirnerthat sort of thing?Jun 13 13:38
schestowitzmaxstirner: yes, they corrupt blogs tooJun 13 13:38
schestowitzGoogle delisted some of themJun 13 13:38
schestowitzAnd Microsoft is part of the problem because it bribes bloggersJun 13 13:38
schestowitzAnd it was accused by former employees too of bribing bloggersJun 13 13:39
maxstirnerwell i guess with the cross-boarder nature of the interweb, this is advantageous to freedom of the press as in wikileaks, and also freedom for capital to produce propaganda without controlJun 13 13:39
schestowitzThey offshore Turfing to China too (maybe not MS)Jun 13 13:39
schestowitzYes, propganda without controlJun 13 13:40
schestowitzLike trolls putting ugly stuff in the site to discredit it (by later linking to it)Jun 13 13:40
maxstirneri wouldnt be particularly surprised about that, the pharma industry also got pulled over for publishing a whole range of "scientific journals" with 100% advertising inside.. when busted they jsut pay up the fine as legal drugs has such wonderful margins it doesnt matter at allJun 13 13:42
_Hicham_schestowitz : DaemonFC is really skilledJun 13 13:43
_Hicham_he is a big contributor to this channelJun 13 13:43
_Hicham_schestowitz : I am testing Mandriva 2009.1Jun 13 13:43
_Hicham_GNOME editionJun 13 13:43
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] Microsoft’s Vice Presidents Keep Quitting en Masse < >Jun 13 13:45
schestowitzmaxstirner: yes, did they get punished for it?Jun 13 13:45
schestowitzHow does one punish them for it?Jun 13 13:45
schestowitzFor all I know, Elsevier's reputation is deadJun 13 13:45
schestowitzBut what about those who bribed it?Jun 13 13:46
schestowitzIt takes too for this type of corruption.  One has products, one has (HAD) reputation.Jun 13 13:46
schestowitz_Hicham_: OKJun 13 13:46
maxstirner <- "I've seen no shortage of creativity emanating from the marketing departments of drug companies"Jun 13 13:47
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Omar871Hi there?Jun 13 14:16
maxstirnerhelloJun 13 14:16
Omar871Guys did you read this silly article? 13 14:16
schestowitzmaxstirner: what's the turnover of the phrama industry (compared to computing)?Jun 13 14:17
schestowitzOmar871: yes, we rebutted their lies where we got attackedJun 13 14:17
Omar871He's saying that Mono is several hundred time faster than Python. How true can that be?Jun 13 14:17
schestowitzBlack art of statsJun 13 14:18
schestowitzPut the right testsJun 13 14:18
schestowitzIt's like saying a truck is a lot slower than an F1 carJun 13 14:18
schestowitzBut a truck can tow what a F1 car cannotJun 13 14:18
schestowitzOr you can swap sorting function in your computer with bubble sort even where it doesn't fitJun 13 14:19
Omar871How, in the world, would Mono ever be any different the Visual Studio.NET when it's basically a so-called "Free Implentation" of the same technology?Jun 13 14:19
Omar871any different *than*..Jun 13 14:20
maxstirnerschestowitz: probably hard to determine, theres overlaps, therell be differences per country. IT is pervasive across all indsutries. there are also differences in the sort of healht care provisions per country..Jun 13 14:20
maxstirner in 2006, global spending on prescription drugs topped $643 billion,Jun 13 14:20
maxstirnerUnited States accounts for almost half of the global pharmaceutical market, with $289 billion in annual salesJun 13 14:20
schestowitzWowJun 13 14:21
schestowitzMarketing/PR is about a trillionJun 13 14:21
schestowitzThat's a LOT of brainwash, annuallyJun 13 14:21
maxstirnerthats another meta-industry..Jun 13 14:21
maxstirnerthink its hard to compare the twoJun 13 14:21
maxstirneri'd compare pharma and car productionJun 13 14:21
schestowitzBenking tooJun 13 14:21
schestowitz*bankJun 13 14:21
schestowitzLawyers..Jun 13 14:22
maxstirnersee what i meanJun 13 14:22
schestowitz"We give you the right to pay us to talk for you"Jun 13 14:22
schestowitzThey don't produce anything so from a very dumbed down POV it's a man-made occupationJun 13 14:23
maxstirnerits a service for interaction with society within the framework of a certain code, the legal codeJun 13 14:23
schestowitzDifferent from some R&D where the goal is to maximise output from physical work of machines (factories)Jun 13 14:23
maxstirnerthats all done in china now, in the west its just talking rubbish and selling it to one another ;)Jun 13 14:24
Omar871So what exactly is the difference between Mono and VS.NET?Jun 13 14:26
twitterThe difference between mono and .NET is that mono is free, though patent encumbered.Jun 13 14:32
twitterAs usual, freedom makes mono better than the non free originalJun 13 14:32
twitterbut it's still a trap.Jun 13 14:33
twitter:)Jun 13 14:33
twitterGood morning, Roy.Jun 13 14:33
maxstirneri think the motivation of most mono-proponents is that they have a job at novell programming mono-based apps, and if they don't manage to push the framework/apps into the distros, theres no mono-employment at novell to be hadJun 13 14:33
twitterThe Jo Shields attack seems to have been planned long in advance.Jun 13 14:33
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twitterThey sent their trolls in here to guide conversation and did other things to harass the place.  They wanted to get as extreme a reaction out of regulars as they could.Jun 13 14:35
maxstirnernoone wants mono particularly, its probably very hard to shove it into the distros.. the development and pushing of some key apps as "best of breed" blabla is probably part of the long-term strategyJun 13 14:35
twitterWhen they failed to provoke the desired reaction, they simply sock puppeted in the most vile trash they could.Jun 13 14:36
twitterM$ always says their non standards are "best of breed"Jun 13 14:36
maxstirnerthe pro-mono banter does actually sound like corporate marketing slangJun 13 14:37
maxstirner"extremely productive" "best of breed" blablaJun 13 14:37
maxstirnerthe majority of gnu users are highly sensitive to the political and legal questions surrounding novell/MSJun 13 14:37
maxstirnerthe mono-pushers' achievements are actually pretty impressive consideringJun 13 14:38
twitterOne of my favorite M$ non standard stories is told by David Korn. 13 14:39
twitter"  I knew that Microsoft had licensed a number of tools from MKS so I came to the microphone to tell the speaker that this was not the "real" Korn Shell and that MKS was not even compatible with ksh88. I had no intention of embarrassing him and thought that he would explain the compromises that Microsoft had to make in choosing MKS Korn Shell. Instead, he insisted that I was wrong and that Microsoft had indeed chosen a "real" Korn SJun 13 14:39
oiaohmNot like some gnome developers have not planed a way to nuke .net anyhow.Jun 13 14:39
twitter:-DJun 13 14:39
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oiaohmvala project is all about picking up the best of c# and the best of gobject and merging them.Jun 13 14:40
oiaohmTo produce a very fast language.Jun 13 14:40
maxstirnernice anecdote..Jun 13 14:41
oiaohmPart of the problem in the open source world.  Some of the best of breed applications are QT based.Jun 13 14:41
oiaohmDue to lacking common theming they look ugly on gnome.Jun 13 14:41
oiaohmAnd the reverse is true with KDE.Jun 13 14:42
twitterM$ brings the same kind of attitude and bragging to all the things they do.Jun 13 14:42
twitterthere's about zero chance mono is going to replace java and other free languagesJun 13 14:43
twitterat the very best, M$ will be able to keep a few of it's VB suckers from jumping the Windows ship, and they will retain a small mind share among those who do by having mono around.Jun 13 14:44
maxstirnerits just like silverlight versus flashJun 13 14:45
maxstirnerjust another sad MS jokeJun 13 14:45
maxstirnerthey never got beyond their OS/office monopoly and thats been replaced by a perfectly functional 100% free alternative nowJun 13 14:45
twitterEveryone sees what's going on.Jun 13 14:45
maxstirnerhence the desperate work on OOXMLJun 13 14:46
schestowitztwitter: morning, twitter Jun 13 14:46
twitter:)Jun 13 14:46
twitterI can't hang out long ... have a little work to do soon.Jun 13 14:46
schestowitzmaxstirner: did they really write "best of breed"?Jun 13 14:47
schestowitzYou'd think you talk of P/L ethnicity there or somethingJun 13 14:47
schestowitzThe Microsoft cultists as some would call it. What about Java? No 'breed'?Jun 13 14:48
maxstirnerschestowitz: i spent most of last ngith read reading around regarding these issues (mostly with leads from your journalistic input) and i'm sure i spotted that somewhere.. i generally felt some of it sounded like corporate slogansJun 13 14:48
twitterSorry, I missed all the racist talk.  I figured out how to ignore people with pidgin and did not see any of it.Jun 13 14:49
schestowitzmaxstirner: yes, office is eroded by AjaxJun 13 14:49
schestowitzMS ridiculed Google only because Live Office is crapJun 13 14:49
schestowitzThey still work on mimicking GoogleJun 13 14:49
schestowitzUntil then they must laugh at themJun 13 14:49
maxstirnerimHo its mostly eroded by as a direct equivalent.. i love installing it for peopleJun 13 14:49
twitterRoy found another M$ story not long ago, about M$ suing one of their MVPs for extending their no cost version of Visual Studio.  I might have shown him that.  The register wrote about it.Jun 13 14:50
maxstirneri've even isntalled it for a girlfriend who was getting wound up by the "ribbon" :DJun 13 14:50
schestowitzYes, that tooJun 13 14:50
schestowitzBut Microsoft seems more scared of Google AppsJun 13 14:50
schestowitzAnd its likesJun 13 14:50
schestowitzI'm not sure whyJun 13 14:50
schestowitzBut it's former lackeys attack GoogleJun 13 14:50
schestowitzI guess with Wi-Fi even netbooks will run something like Google AppsJun 13 14:50
twitterbecause Google Apps is a much easier way to share than Share Point.Jun 13 14:50
maxstirnergoogle being like MS when they owned the DOS-world :DJun 13 14:50
schestowitztwitter: yes, exactlyJun 13 14:51
schestowitzNow they have waveJun 13 14:51
twitterGoogle has basically thwarted M$'s future.Jun 13 14:51
schestowitzYouTube+mail+presentation viewer/maker metc.Jun 13 14:51
schestowitzAll in one.Jun 13 14:51
schestowitzYou could even put YouTube in presentationsJun 13 14:51
schestowitzI don't know if they have done that yetJun 13 14:51
twitterEverything M$ wanted to do, Google did better with free software.  It's a nice double insult.Jun 13 14:51
schestowitzSo you can pass people a presentation with mashup-like embedmentsJun 13 14:51
schestowitzImagine sedning a presentation to someone with 20 long videos, each being a YouTuve directionJun 13 14:52
schestowitztwitter: not Free softwareJun 13 14:52
schestowitzSaaS and mashups, running on top of FOSSJun 13 14:52
schestowitzBut Wave and Chrome are FOSS.Jun 13 14:52
twitterGoogle's use of free software is mostly in the right spirit.  There is danger, but it's mostly FUD.Jun 13 14:53
twitterThey use free software to solve specific problems and offer the result as a service.Jun 13 14:54
schestowitzGoogle used to do DRMJun 13 14:55
schestowitzFor filmsJun 13 14:55
schestowitzBut they closed down that shop business and gave some disappointing refundJun 13 14:55
twitterYouTube, true.Jun 13 14:55
schestowitzAre they doing DRM anywhere, still?Jun 13 14:55
schestowitzThey see to be 'protecting' scanned books from being saved, but not captured from the screenJun 13 14:55
twitterthey make it difficult to get things.Jun 13 14:56
twitterThat is all in the wrong spirit but mostly forced by others.Jun 13 14:56
twittergotta go, bblJun 13 14:57
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wallclimberGood morningJun 13 14:59
wallclimberRoy, when do you think you'll be working on Comes vs MS again?Jun 13 15:00
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-BNc/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] Fedora “Concerned” About Mono for Legal Reasons, Ubuntu Debate Carries on < >Jun 13 15:10
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_Hicham_wb Mr taconeJun 13 15:11
taconehey bad newsJun 13 15:11
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schestowitzheyJun 13 15:16
schestowitzwallclimber..Jun 13 15:17
wallclimberHa! I just installed Konversation and got it working!Jun 13 15:17
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schestowitztacone: the only bad news is this: "On top of all that, the ubuntu forums are “disappearing” threads that are critical of mono … and people seem perfectly alright with that. I spent a lot of time posting to a thread yesterday, only to come back on today to see it removed from the boards. Same thing on brainstorm with votes being “disappeared”."Jun 13 15:20
schestowitzSee my latest post < >. Even Red Hat rethinks Mono.Jun 13 15:20
schestowitzwallclimber: I might restart Comes next weekJun 13 15:20
taconei linked that here yesterdayJun 13 15:20
schestowitzNews lag...Jun 13 15:20
schestowitztacone: yesJun 13 15:21
wallclimberNext week will be fine, if you still want help with itJun 13 15:21
neighborleetacone, not so sure its bad news..he had other fish to fry it sounds like..and im not so sure, him 'giving up' is all that great a sign he was all that devloted to begin with..not a bad thing,,just his lot in life...c'est la vie but in NO way  is it bad news....Jun 13 15:21
taconeschestowitz: as well as the huarya deliriumJun 13 15:21
taconehow crazy is that guy ?Jun 13 15:21
taconehe has absolutely no clue about anything.Jun 13 15:21
neighborleeI woud never just give up because things seemed dismal or impossible..its nolt in my dna 'to give up'Jun 13 15:21
taconeon a side note, there's one italian shill infesting any blog who talks about monoJun 13 15:22
taconefake comments are beginning on one of the lead italian linux blogsJun 13 15:22
taconethat's scaring, honestly. you don't expect localized fanboys.Jun 13 15:23
neighborleeWE have to remember..those that speak of this issue as if those not supporting mono are crazy fud'ers , gives our argument  tons more in no way is it worth 'giving up' on ;)Jun 13 15:23
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-BNc/#boycottnovell-[trmanco] Windows da Microsoft «é como uma droga»: || Primeira vez os vejo a falar de software livre...Jun 13 15:25
schestowitz 13 15:28
schestowitztacone: yeah, but I don't think it's badly intendedJun 13 15:29
taconeschestowitz: what ?Jun 13 15:30
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schestowitzNever mindJun 13 15:31
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taconeas you prefer.Jun 13 15:31
schestowitzI think the likes you see in the mailing list give a bad name to Mono criticsJun 13 15:31
schestowitzThey think of it as nutters like "fink"Jun 13 15:31
taconesure they do.Jun 13 15:31
schestowitzWhich is why it's very damaging to our causeJun 13 15:31
taconethat's why mononono is needed.Jun 13 15:32
schestowitzLike religious fanatics that are used to daemonise religionsJun 13 15:32
neighborleeresponse to giving up commited,,thx tacone for mentioning this.Jun 13 15:34
neighborleeschestowitz, how many mono critics are acting this wayJun 13 15:37
neighborleeschestowitz, YOu prob. see more of this than many, so how many would you estimateJun 13 15:37
_Hicham_when Mono will die?Jun 13 15:38
_Hicham_I will accept Mono, if and only if, Visual Studio got ported to LinuxJun 13 15:39
neighborleelolJun 13 15:39
neighborleeThats the spirit! :))HAJun 13 15:39
neighborleeThats a laugh worth getting behind :))Jun 13 15:40
_Hicham_there is no IDE in the world like Visual StudioJun 13 15:40
neighborleewellJun 13 15:40
neighborleeanjuta can't be all that far behindJun 13 15:40
neighborleeI wonder if kdevelop is holding upJun 13 15:40
_Hicham_Anjuta is still youngJun 13 15:41
_Hicham_I use for my main developmentJun 13 15:41
neighborleecompartively indeed it isJun 13 15:41
neighborleenice ;))Jun 13 15:41
_Hicham_but it exceeds Visual Studio in some areasJun 13 15:41
_Hicham_it has a great set of pluginsJun 13 15:41
_Hicham_that are not available for Visual StudioJun 13 15:42
neighborleeindeed it does-Jun 13 15:44
EruaranKDevelop4 is shaping up with some very nice featuresJun 13 15:45
taconenew logo 13 15:45
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Eruaran 13 15:49
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[astralknight] What if Microshaft left EU today?!!: 13 15:50
tacone"I prefer netinstall myself (and don’t use tasks) but please, PLEASE don’t impose an Ubuntu on us." 13 15:52
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[astralknight] More "fun" with expensive low quality Vista SLOPWARE: 13 15:55
PetoKrausberanger has an uniquely good articleJun 13 15:55
PetoKraus 13 15:55
schestowitzPetoKraus: his political stuff is goodJun 13 15:58
neighborleelooksl like shields is really scared mono might be removed from EVEN ubuntu ;))Jun 13 16:03
neighborleeINteresting o_0Jun 13 16:04
EruaranSo another Mono-advocates argument is that if all your apps are Mono, they'll use less space cause they're using mono, reducing duplication...Jun 13 16:04
EruaranermJun 13 16:04
Eruaranisn't this already a feature ofJun 13 16:04
EruarankdeJun 13 16:04
Eruaranno monoJun 13 16:04
neighborleefaik it is.Jun 13 16:05
neighborleedepends which distro I guess..fedora kde has fspot, etc.Jun 13 16:05
neighborleeat least dvd wizeJun 13 16:05
neighborleelivecd prob. n ot ?Jun 13 16:05
Eruarankde is a wonderful example of how you can have great apps that share libraries and integrate nicelyJun 13 16:06
Eruaranso what does anyone need mono forJun 13 16:06
Eruaranuse QtJun 13 16:06
neighborleeIve seen that sentiment expressed lately , yes.Jun 13 16:06
neighborleeand now that its lgpl..I h ave far less issues with it, yes.Jun 13 16:06
Eruaranoh wait... Miguel doesnt like Qt cause of that thing from back in the 90'sJun 13 16:06
Eruaran...Jun 13 16:06
neighborleehow ironic ey ;))Jun 13 16:07
neighborleeheh no doubt ;0-0Jun 13 16:07
Eruaranthe irony is as thick as honeyJun 13 16:07
neighborleesure is LOLJun 13 16:07
EruaranI saw the linux multitouch demoJun 13 16:08
Eruarannot the first ive seenJun 13 16:08
Eruaranbut nice to see a kde desktopJun 13 16:08
neighborleeI tried kde in fedora11..buggy but then it might just be fedora not sure, as I installed ,late albeit the fedora 11 RCJun 13 16:10
neighborleewas ,,resizing kde panel and it crashed..Jun 13 16:10
neighborleethough deskto p remained okJun 13 16:10
Eruaranthat would be a distro issueJun 13 16:10
neighborleeI wondered.Jun 13 16:10
EruaranMint 6 KDE had the same issue in the RCJun 13 16:11
neighborleezalsoJun 13 16:11
EruaranKubuntu doesn'tJun 13 16:11
neighborleefedora used kde 4.2.5 I thik..I hear 4.2.3 is more stable ;0Jun 13 16:11
neighborleehmmJun 13 16:11
Eruaran4.2.4 is the latestJun 13 16:11
Eruaranits stableJun 13 16:11
neighborleeahJun 13 16:11
EruaranFedora seems a bit too bleeding edge to meJun 13 16:12
neighborleewell you knowJun 13 16:12
neighborleeon fedora FAQ < though its 'unofficial" > its claimed to be stable ;)Jun 13 16:12
neighborleedepends who you  ask..usually they say its not unstable.but ya know I've always felt same way overallJun 13 16:12
neighborleemono gone..makes it more appealing no doubt of thatJun 13 16:13
EruaranI kind of see Fedora as the distro you want to use to see what other distro's will have in 6 to 8 months timeJun 13 16:13
neighborleestill..Jun 13 16:13
neighborleeLOLJun 13 16:13
neighborleeyes ;)Jun 13 16:13
Eruaranexcept other distros will be stableJun 13 16:13
neighborleesad but likely quite true..Jun 13 16:14
Eruaranits like new wineJun 13 16:14
neighborleethey put in beta firefox..apparantly beta kde..Jun 13 16:14
Eruaranlooks good but can be quite volatileJun 13 16:14
neighborleeso..its not like your statements dont carry truth ;)Jun 13 16:14
neighborleeexactlyJun 13 16:14
EruaranKDE 4.2.4 is officialJun 13 16:15
neighborleeit does SO much very nicely..I wish took stability a tad m ore seriouslyJun 13 16:15
Eruaran4.2.5 is like what the ?Jun 13 16:15
neighborleekkJun 13 16:15
neighborleebuggyJun 13 16:15
neighborleetrust me on thatJun 13 16:15
neighborleeits nice.but...Jun 13 16:15
EruaranI didn't know there was even going to be a 4.2.5Jun 13 16:15
Eruaranthat doesnt sound rightJun 13 16:15
neighborleeI may be wrong on the versionJun 13 16:15
neighborleeim not in fedora atm so I cant' verifyJun 13 16:15
EruaranIts not 4.3 is it ?Jun 13 16:16
neighborleemabyeJun 13 16:16
neighborleeybeJun 13 16:16
Eruaranthats betaJun 13 16:16
neighborleehmmm now im curious :))Jun 13 16:16
neighborleeeasy way to verify BRBJun 13 16:16
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neighborlee4.2.3Jun 13 16:19
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] Microsoft to ‘Pay’ $0.1 Billion to Settle Mississippi Case Against Its Crimes < >Jun 13 16:20
Eruaranshould be fineJun 13 16:23
EruaranI have 4.2.4 and its fineJun 13 16:23
neighborleeall I can say is panel crashedJun 13 16:24
neighborleewhen I tried to resize itJun 13 16:24
neighborleevery neat how they do resizing though..unique.Jun 13 16:24
neighborleenow sure if it was vert. orhoriz. but it crashed ;)Jun 13 16:24
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neighborleeanyone know, if any reply at all has been given to sam  re:  ecma ???Jun 13 16:30
neighborleebefore I write this   response it might be nice to know...;)Jun 13 16:30
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schestowitzNone that I know oJun 13 16:48
schestowitz*ofJun 13 16:48
neighborleekkJun 13 16:49
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] Even Microsoft Can’t Secure Its Windows-based Web Sites (MSN Canada Cracked) < >Jun 13 16:55
schestowitzbblJun 13 16:55
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ender2070i love how on the mono site, they say in the event microsoft attempts a mono-related patent suit, they would just "invalidate it with prior art"Jun 13 17:07
ender2070if they could actually make that claim they would already know what patents they needed to invalidateJun 13 17:08
ender2070and if they do, why dont they invalidate them anywaysJun 13 17:08
neighborleehmJun 13 17:09
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-BNc/#boycottnovell-[_goblin] Ah, back at home. Back on Linux! My week wasn't too bad having to use XP expect my report soon.Jun 13 17:35
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-BNc/#boycottnovell-[davidgerard] Me down the pub with the Australians (and an Englishman to my left): 13 17:40
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_Goblinhi allJun 13 17:43
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neighborleehi ;)Jun 13 17:45
_Goblinbit slow in here today...Jun 13 17:47
_Goblinjust returned home from PooleJun 13 17:47
_Goblingood to be back with Linux...Jun 13 17:47
_Mutex_no xp laptop for you :)Jun 13 17:47
_Goblinnetbook...nope..its packed away until next time.Jun 13 17:48
_GoblinI see Roy has changed the topic of room.Jun 13 17:48
_GoblinOne thing I learnt from using XP for a week.  I'll be moving over to Chrome ASAP.Jun 13 17:49
_Goblinvery impressed with that package.Jun 13 17:49
_Mutex_really,, interesting :) goodJun 13 17:50
_Goblinjust had a quick run of the beta on seems just as good.Jun 13 17:50
_Goblinah..Jun 13 18:03
_GoblinLets talk about...Jun 13 18:04
_GoblinBB?Jun 13 18:04
_Goblinor what about ITV and its silverlight preferenceJun 13 18:04
_Goblinstrange that a channel that relies on advertising for revenue chooses a deployment method that many people either dont have or want.Jun 13 18:05
_Mutex_many people ? I assume your refering to Non-windows users ?Jun 13 18:07
_Goblinand Windows users...typical user (In my experience) Q: You installed silverlight?  A: Whats that?Jun 13 18:08
maxstirnerits typical microtoss idiocy, trying to enter the market for flash-like platforms at this stageJun 13 18:09
maxstirnernever happenJun 13 18:09
_Mutex_Typical users, in my experience, dont even know what an operating system is.  If they get a popup that says they need silverlight for view somehting, they will click "OK" and download it,  and forget about it.Jun 13 18:09
_Goblinmaybe some Windows users will blindly install the latest MS schemes but I think many of the average users think twice before putting more bloat on their systems.Jun 13 18:09
_Mutex_I asked a young lady with computer problems the other day, "what OS are you using" she look at me blankly and said "what?" "I Dunno".Jun 13 18:10
_GoblinI think thats one of the barriers for mainstream migration to Linux.Jun 13 18:10
_Goblinthe lack of understanding...Jun 13 18:10
_Mutex_It sure ISJun 13 18:10
_GoblinMy wife once thought Ubuntu was made by Microsoft.Jun 13 18:10
_Mutex_the OS is getting less and less relevant as time goes on, people care about one thing, ApplicationsJun 13 18:11
_Mutex_Exactly.Jun 13 18:11
_Goblintrue...and really thats the way it should be..Jun 13 18:11
maxstirnerthe OS has not been relevant in 2 decades due to a near-total monopoly, and all apps ran on that one OS. that's why noone is able to answer the "which OS" question IMOJun 13 18:12
_Mutex_yes, again exactly, the OS should be invisable and transparent, (like kids, sometimes seen but never heard)Jun 13 18:12
_Goblinan OS should be a platform which runs as unassumingly in the background freeing up as many resources as possible whilst acting as a launchpad for other apps.Jun 13 18:12
_Mutex_yep,Jun 13 18:12
_GoblinWorkbench was a good example of this.Jun 13 18:12
_Goblinthe shame is (IMO) Windows acts as a platform to sell you more things...its not so much an OS but a sales pitch.Jun 13 18:13
_Goblinalways questioning, registration codes, free trials, malware search bars, widgets, blingy gfx which hide (IMO) a platform of little depth.Jun 13 18:14
_Mutex_yes, thats life, iPod sell iPod so they can sell you music, DVD players want you to buy DVD, its actually what everyone doesJun 13 18:14
_GoblinAgreed, but when I switch my DVD player on, it doesnt try to sell me other apps for it, nor does it expect me to buy an upgrade.Jun 13 18:15
_Mutex_I mean Red Hat GIVES away software so they can sell maintenance contracts, its no differentJun 13 18:15
_Mutex_What I switch Windows on , I dont get anything trying to sell me apps eitherJun 13 18:16
_Mutex_Or LinuxJun 13 18:16
_GoblinYep, but the choice if you want those contracts is up to you, and in these days of so many forums and chat rooms, Id suggest for the home user they are not needed.Jun 13 18:16
_GoblinUnless Im wrong, when you buy a new machine with Windows, doesnt it have trials, freebies and offers galore?Jun 13 18:17
_Goblinsince I just been using a new XP laptop, Im talking from experience.Jun 13 18:17
_GoblinIn my one week of XP, Ive been "advised" to try out a 60 day trial of office...Jun 13 18:17
_Mutex_what were y ou prompted to buy ?Jun 13 18:17
_GoblinPopup after the machine had been on about TWO minutes.Jun 13 18:18
_GoblinI hadnt even connected to the net..Jun 13 18:18
_Goblinthats where the real fun started.Jun 13 18:18
_Mutex_from a web page,,, ive never seen that, but asking you to try a FREE trial, is not quite making you buy anything,Jun 13 18:18
_GoblinIve nearly completed my feature on "A Holiday with XP" which journals my tale of woe.Jun 13 18:19
_Goblinwhich to be fair, was mainly only ruined by the machine trying to pimp things to me.Jun 13 18:19
_Mutex_Thats a bit odd, I have to admit ive never seen that, not saying it does not happen, but it must be rareJun 13 18:19
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_GoblinIt could be pre-installed software from the store I purchased.Jun 13 18:19
_Goblinand really its not a dig at MS (believe it or not)Jun 13 18:20
_Mutex_mabey, then its not really MS's issue, its your OEM's.Jun 13 18:20
_Mutex_thats rightJun 13 18:20
_Goblinits more of a dig at why proprietary is rotten to the core and IMO the future of it rests soley with custom solutions for Enterprise, not the home user.Jun 13 18:20
_GoblinWhy bother with Nero when you have Brasero?Jun 13 18:21
_GoblinWhy bother with MS Office when you have Openoffice?Jun 13 18:21
_Goblinetc etcJun 13 18:21
_Goblinand IE? I honestly thought that the complaints on the net were wrong was I.Jun 13 18:22
_GoblinOn my little netbook (with only a 16gig SSD) there was approximately 1 gig wasted with trials that Microsoft wanted to sell me.Jun 13 18:23
_Goblin1gig is not much I know, but on a little netbook where resources are limited, it means alot.Jun 13 18:24
_Mutex_the reason why people bother with MS office, its basically ALL business use it, its a defacto industry standard, and still does not have the VB capabilities that are embedded into a vast legacy of Excel, and MSO apps. Government, business, Science, inductry, its really hard if not impossible to break a defacto standard, as the Beta Vedeo people, VHS because the standard, everyone used it, even though BETA was technically better, it did not mJun 13 18:24
_GoblinVB capabilities required for the home user?  We will agree to differ on that and since you yourself agree most people dont even know what the OS is, how do you expect them to facilitate VB?Jun 13 18:25
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[astralknight] Microshaft set to violate EU rules again over low quality IE: 13 18:25
_GoblinIn regards to government, Im pleased you mentioned that.  The French have switched their Police force to FOSS and have had no issues.Jun 13 18:26
_Mutex_yes, required by the home users, if you want to do anything with government (well here in Australia), online, or to fill out any forms, do a government course, you HAVE to have excel and VBJun 13 18:26
_Mutex_I did a business course, and i HAD to use excell, the entire business plan was a complex excell spreadsheet, and its a Government small business course, you just cant do it without word.Jun 13 18:27
_Mutex_im not saying it cant be dont, im just saying its mostly not done.Jun 13 18:28
_GoblinIf thats the case in the Uk then maybe its another avenue for the EU and anti-trust investigations once they complete the IE issue.Jun 13 18:28
_GoblinSince after recent scandles the government want to reduce expenses...Jun 13 18:28
_Mutex_It's a buyers choice, you cant be fined for being popular, (unless you're the EU).Jun 13 18:28
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_Goblingoing to FOSS could pump more money into the system.Jun 13 18:28
_Goblinthats not really true is it?  They were investigated with the tactics used to pimp their products to the detriment of others...Firefox has already proved (IMO) that better alternatives to MS products exist.Jun 13 18:29
_Mutex_Mabey so, but really , you think even EVERY Windows in Government would amount to anywhere near the loss of some of the UK banks have created, or GM or chrisler or the Sub-prime bailout, MS is chicken feed.Jun 13 18:30
fewa_Mutex_, yesJun 13 18:30
_Goblinvery true, but the sustained cost of proprietary would still be a saving....we cant change whats happened in the banks...Jun 13 18:30
_Mutex_They do that because its MS, and they have lots of money, if they were serious and honest, they would do that with Apple too, but they dont have the money to extort.Jun 13 18:30
_Mutex_MS is the EU's cashcow, (and now they found  INTEL) too.Jun 13 18:31
_GoblinMS the victim?  thats a new one.Jun 13 18:31
_Mutex_EU fines for MS amount to 10% of the EU's budget, you dont think that would bias their opinion ?Jun 13 18:31
fewaSoftware Libre not only help with economics, it also improves security, innovation, progressJun 13 18:31
fewa_Mutex_, have to people objected?Jun 13 18:32
fewa*theJun 13 18:32
_Mutex_Sorry , free software is still basically using UNIX, Unix is 40 years old, thats not really progress IMHOJun 13 18:32
_Mutex_Objected to what ?Jun 13 18:32
_GoblinIm not really bothered in why Microsoft is fined....its the products (IMO) dont stand up to alternatives and its the end user that suffers when they are led down an MS route because they know no better.Jun 13 18:32
fewaHow about bias of Microsoft _Mutex_ ?Jun 13 18:33
_Mutex_being poplular is not a crimeJun 13 18:33
fewadoesnt the fact that they can crush rivals, and influence the market give them a bias to hamper innovation?Jun 13 18:33
_Goblinno its not....the Ipod/Zune issue is testiment to that...Users chose the platform they prefered.Jun 13 18:34
_Goblinin the case of PC OS's that hasnt happened yet.Jun 13 18:34
_Mutex_crushing rivals, sorry, no, ms has never performed a hostile takeover, therefore every company they acquired did so willinglyJun 13 18:34
fewa_Mutex_, Microsoft is not "popular", its only commonJun 13 18:34
fewaand the reason it is common is because of anti-competitive tacticsJun 13 18:34
_Mutex_Most business managers know the word NO, ask YahooJun 13 18:34
_Mutex_Popular is common,Jun 13 18:35
_Goblinvery true Fewa...Jun 13 18:35
fewa_Mutex_, people hate Vista'Jun 13 18:35
_Mutex_samanticsJun 13 18:35
fewaMicrosoft is not popularJun 13 18:35
_Mutex_FOSS people hate Vista, most of the world have hardly heard the wordJun 13 18:35
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[astralknight] Low quality MSN Canada website hacked: 13 18:35
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[astralknight] Microsoft Mafia settles suit with Mississippi for $100 mln: 13 18:35
_Goblinbut at the end of the day, it doesnt matter if MS is popular or not, its simply that its packages (IMO) do not stand up against alternatives and users are suffering because of ignorance of the choices available to them.Jun 13 18:35
_Mutex_going back to "what OS are  you using" a. "I dunno".Jun 13 18:35
fewa_Mutex_, thats a myth for many consumers, consumers that know what they are getting demand XPJun 13 18:36
_Mutex_If users are suffering, they would seek out alternatives,  most CIO's are aware of Linux, and FOSS, and AppleJun 13 18:36
fewaor OSX, or even LinuxJun 13 18:36
_Goblinand like I say (and you agree) there is ignorance of what they are actually running.Jun 13 18:37
fewaand the other consumers dont know what Windows is, so how could it possibly be considered popularJun 13 18:37
_Mutex_Vista is selling 20 million licenses per month, FOSS dont like Vista I understand that, but the world is totally indifferent.Jun 13 18:37
fewa_Mutex_, only becuase they blackmail OEMs into selling itJun 13 18:37
_GoblinI think its widely agreed that FF is far superior to IE but how many "average users" still use IE because they are not aware?  I found one a few weeks ago.Jun 13 18:37
_Mutex_Yes, there is, but if they find what they are running is able to do what they want (and it is) they see no reason to change.Jun 13 18:38
_Mutex_thats why XP is staying in the market for so lingJun 13 18:38
_Goblinbut thats not what is happening is it?Jun 13 18:38
_Mutex_longJun 13 18:38
fewa_Mutex_, thats not popularityJun 13 18:38
_Goblinits the ignorance in general that has created a market for the home IT technician, where extortionate prices can be charged to fix systems that have been ruined by user ignorance.Jun 13 18:39
_Mutex_Popularity is like a singer or actor, its known by alot of people, mabey MS is the Kylie minogue of the OS :)Jun 13 18:39
_Mutex_and Linux the Milly vanillyJun 13 18:39
fewaXP has been on the market this long because people dont like Microsoft dictating to them what they can and cannot do with their computerJun 13 18:39
_Goblinor simply misplaced trust in Microsoft packages.Jun 13 18:39
fewa_Mutex_, you just said that people dont know what OS they runJun 13 18:39
_Mutex_Fewa if that was the case they would not use XP they would use something else.Jun 13 18:39
fewayou are contradicting yourselfJun 13 18:40
_Mutex_XP is MS after all. so by using XP they ARE being dictated by MS. (willingly)Jun 13 18:40
fewa_Mutex_, its the first step towards using something elseJun 13 18:40
_Mutex_how so ?Jun 13 18:40
fewaIs rejecting the upgrade treadmillJun 13 18:40
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[astralknight] Why Microsoft Mafia hates - no, *REALLY* hates - ODF: 13 18:40
_GoblinI think Firefox also is the first step to users experiencing alternatives....Jun 13 18:40
_Mutex_So you most to FOSS and you are forced into the 6 month upgrade treadmill.Jun 13 18:40
_Goblin?Jun 13 18:41
fewa_Mutex_, thats a lieJun 13 18:41
fewago use Debian, CentosJun 13 18:41
_GoblinIm not...Jun 13 18:41
_Mutex_xp around for 9 years, is not really an upgrade mill, its also 18 Linux upgrades in that timeJun 13 18:41
fewaubuntu LTSJun 13 18:41
_Mutex_what a lie ?Jun 13 18:41
_GoblinMutex: Ubuntu !=Linux.Jun 13 18:41
_Goblinand even if it was, you could still be running Heron quite happily now.Jun 13 18:42
_Mutex_Ubuntu contains the GPLv2 Linux (ie the Kernel) PLUS the GNU applications, therefore the Kernel of Ununtu is LINUX.Jun 13 18:42
fewa_Mutex_, logally falacyJun 13 18:42
_Mutex_IF its not Linux what is it ?Jun 13 18:42
_Mutex_Unix ?Jun 13 18:42
_Goblinand thats an issue to the average user because.....?Jun 13 18:43
fewajust because A is a subset of B doesnt mean A encompasses all of BJun 13 18:43
MinceR_Mutex_: not all Linuxes are Ubuntu.Jun 13 18:43
_Mutex_You saying Ubuntu does not contain the Linux Kernel ?Jun 13 18:43
_GoblinIve given up on Ubuntu anyway.Jun 13 18:43
_Mutex_I beg to differJun 13 18:43
_GoblinFor me Linux = Mandriva + GentooJun 13 18:43
MinceR_Mutex_: are you pretending to be stupid or is that genuine? :>Jun 13 18:43
_Mutex_Linux copyright of Linus Torvalds is the Kernel of the GNU/Linux Operating system and application suite,Jun 13 18:44
_GoblinMutex why is any of this a concern to a user who wants to move from a lockin MS life?Jun 13 18:44
_Mutex_If nandrive is a part of the GNU/Linux Operating sytsem IF it contains Linus's Kernel called LINUX ,,, then its GNU/Linux as per the definition by the FSFJun 13 18:45
_GoblinMutex - we were talking of ignorance of choice in regards to the average user.  What importance is this to the average user who is fed up with Microsoft issues?Jun 13 18:45
_Mutex_Its only a concern to anyone who likes to deal it realities and facts, and IF you find that I am saying anything that is not a fact please correct me.Jun 13 18:46
_Mutex_as I will correct you if you dont state facts, that can be supported by evidanceJun 13 18:46
_Mutex_what do they say "just keeping it real" :)Jun 13 18:46
_GoblinMutex, I ask again.  We were talking of the average user and a migration from Windows.  Please answer the question, what importance is this to the average user?Jun 13 18:46
_Mutex_as my job as unofficial BN troll :)Jun 13 18:46
_Mutex_What importance is what to the everage users ?Jun 13 18:47
_Mutex_Im sorry i missed your questionJun 13 18:47
_Goblinwe were talking about average users and freedom of choice...Jun 13 18:47
MinceR_Mutex_: so when are you going to say that Mandriva is Ubuntu?Jun 13 18:47
_Mutex_Im notJun 13 18:47
_Goblinyou started off on a discussion about the GPLJun 13 18:47
_Mutex_Mandriva is mandrive and Ubuntu is Ubuntu, both of them use the Linux GPLv2 Kernel that is LinuxJun 13 18:48
_GoblinI ask again, your opinions/theories on GPL issues are interesting, however what relevance to they have to the average user (which is what we were talking about)Jun 13 18:48
_Mutex_they are both linux (well contain the Linux kernel)Jun 13 18:48
_Mutex_GPL has absolutely no relevance to the average userJun 13 18:49
_Goblinthank you.Jun 13 18:49
_Mutex_nor is the EULAJun 13 18:49
_Goblinso why move the subject when we were talking about the average user and freedom of choice?Jun 13 18:49
_Mutex_GPL gives you the right to view and modify the code, thats your freedom, great I love that.Jun 13 18:49
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_GoblinMutex....Jun 13 18:49
_Goblinyoure doing it again.....Jun 13 18:49
_Mutex_except if your not a programmer, then its POINTLESSJun 13 18:49
MinceR_Mutex_: freedom 0 is directly relevant to all usersJun 13 18:50
_Goblinaverage users DO NOT, want to modify source code.Jun 13 18:50
_Goblinthats what we were talking about.Jun 13 18:50
_Mutex_whats that say ? you are free to use the software ?Jun 13 18:50
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_Goblinif you want to talk coding issues, I'll happily move on when we are finished with this one.Jun 13 18:50
MinceRyou are free to use it for any purposeJun 13 18:50
MinceRregardless of who you areJun 13 18:51
_Goblinif we cut all the disputes about GPL, Mono, patents etc at the end of the day the individual has a choice: Linux/Windows/Mac or other....its that simple.Jun 13 18:52
_Mutex_unless you change the code, and want to release it, or want to sell your product or you want to change the license, or  you want to include proprietary code to it and so on.  It is in fact quite a restictive "freedom"Jun 13 18:52
MinceR_Mutex_: bullshitJun 13 18:52
_Mutex_yes, they do have a choice, clearly and they have taken up that choice.Jun 13 18:52
MinceRalso, another thing that's relevant to most users is that they can freely give it to anyoneJun 13 18:52
_Mutex_MinceR well said :)Jun 13 18:52
_Goblinwe can fudge around the issue all day talking about EULA's, but if the "average user" finds that say Ubuntu is a great piece of software for them, then I really dont think they care about anything else....Jun 13 18:53
_Mutex_I can download hundreds of apps that I can get freely, and i can give them to anyone I want,Jun 13 18:53
MinceRthe point is, they don't need to be afraid of legal issues following from its useJun 13 18:53
_GoblinMind you it appears (on some of the large BT Trackers) that MS products are given away freely as well....Jun 13 18:53
_Mutex_Nor do iJun 13 18:53
_GoblinI've yet to see an MS civil case in regards to BTJun 13 18:54
_Mutex_I can download hundreds or thousands of apps legally, for free and give them to whoever I please.Jun 13 18:54
MinceRoh, the classic "it hasn't happened before" defense :>Jun 13 18:54
_GoblinMaybe it goes back to what gates said "Get them hooked, we will work out how to make a return later"Jun 13 18:54
_Mutex_Who said it hasn't happend before ?Jun 13 18:54
MinceR_Goblin didJun 13 18:54
_Mutex_ahh :)Jun 13 18:55
MinceRit might be true, i don't knowJun 13 18:55
_Mutex_I just assumed it was me LOLJun 13 18:55
_Goblinsorry?Jun 13 18:55
_Mutex_usually isJun 13 18:55
MinceR_Goblin: i was referring to that you said you've yet to see a m$ civil case in regards to BTJun 13 18:55
_Mutex_BT british telecom ?Jun 13 18:56
_GoblinBittorrentJun 13 18:56
_Goblinp2pJun 13 18:56
_Mutex_AhhJun 13 18:56
_Mutex_has MS taken any action agaist BT ?Jun 13 18:56
_Mutex_I know some governments haveJun 13 18:56
_Mutex_ask TPBJun 13 18:56
MinceRBrian Wayne Transeau :>Jun 13 18:56
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_GoblinTheres not enough money for MS to go after filesharers (IMO) and due to being in need of revenue, they hit out at Tom Tom etc..Jun 13 18:57
_Mutex_different issuesJun 13 18:58
_Mutex_TOMTOM was a patent issue BT is a file sharing issueJun 13 18:58
_Goblinoh come know I knew that...Jun 13 18:58
_Mutex_Apples and orangesJun 13 18:58
MinceRb$a did threaten those users thoughJun 13 18:58
_Mutex_as y ou knowJun 13 18:58
_Goblinwhat I was saying was that if MS could use P2P as a revenue stream, they would.Jun 13 18:58
_Goblinthe thing is whilst the total effect of MS piracy is massive, pinning it down to a few cases cant happen.Jun 13 18:59
_Mutex_im sure if anyone could use it they would ,, hang on, didnt some company buy napster ?Jun 13 18:59
_Mutex_I dont think it was MSJun 13 19:00
_Goblinit would not be worth (IMO) MS to go after Miss Jones for her sharing Vista.Jun 13 19:00
_GoblinI was talking about p2p cases of civil damages for piracy of its products.Jun 13 19:00
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[astralknight] Why Microsoft's Mono Poison is Unacceptable Garbage: 13 19:00
_Mutex_what like the RIAA does ?? thats fair enough, but I dont know of any cases of MS doing itJun 13 19:01
_Goblinyep.Jun 13 19:01
_Goblinand to the best of my knowledge MS are not actively involved in any cases.Jun 13 19:01
_Mutex_thats what I think too.Jun 13 19:01
_Goblinwhy?Jun 13 19:01
_Goblinbecause theres not enough money in it for them.Jun 13 19:01
_Mutex_why should they ?Jun 13 19:01
_GoblinI dont know.....loss of revenue perhaps?Jun 13 19:02
_Mutex_Does the RIAA think there is no money in it ?Jun 13 19:02
_Goblinno but its different....Jun 13 19:02
_Mutex_howJun 13 19:02
_Goblinthe film companies make a one time hit from a movie..(for example)Jun 13 19:02
_GoblinMS is an ongoing pc's etcJun 13 19:02
_Mutex_one time ? one time per person who steals the movie and does not go and see itJun 13 19:03
_Mutex_same differenceJun 13 19:03
_Goblinnot really, since when a user purchases a machine, Windows is present....Jun 13 19:03
_Mutex_Film makers dont make a one time hit from a movieJun 13 19:03
_Mutex_You should know thatJun 13 19:03
_Goblinthey do in regards to DVD....Jun 13 19:03
_Mutex_If they sell ONE DVD you are rightJun 13 19:04
_Goblinthe cinema release is cammedJun 13 19:04
_Goblinthe dvd is ripped.Jun 13 19:04
_Goblinand by the time thats done, all thats left for the movie is to sell it to a broadcaster.Jun 13 19:04
_Mutex_so say its ripped into a million copies, its not ONE time, its a million times !!Jun 13 19:04
_GoblinOne chance.Jun 13 19:04
_Mutex_you know films make money all the time, after their release, not a ONE OFF payment.Jun 13 19:05
_Goblinno...the DVD rip is often out before retail.Jun 13 19:05
_Mutex_same with musicJun 13 19:05
_Goblinyes of course, but the impact on having One product (say Star Wars) is that once the title is out is has less value if its mass pirated...Jun 13 19:06
_Mutex_yes your right, therefore thats why its illegal.Jun 13 19:06
_Goblinin respect of say Vista, MS will make money again when a user buys a new machine, regardless if the previous version they had was pirated.Jun 13 19:06
_Goblinand Mutex....the companies (IMO) prefer it to be unlawful not illegal, and after Ive had my dinner Ill return to say why.....Jun 13 19:07
_Mutex_no they wont, they will continue to use the pirated version, Ive never purchased a PC with an OS, if they copied it once, you dont think they will do it again ?Jun 13 19:07
_Mutex_LOL okJun 13 19:07
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[astralknight] Microsoft Mafia's Phony Browser Self-Remedy: 13 19:10
twitter1Ugh, Mississippi was bought off with vouchers, " If all vouchers were not claimed a further $8 million could go to the state, he said."Jun 13 19:11
_Mutex_whats a voucher ?Jun 13 19:12
twitter1M$ will never care about these lawsuits if they can pay them off in Winblows use.Jun 13 19:12
twitter1The remedy has to be a cure and elimination of Windows.Jun 13 19:12
_Mutex_whats going to happen if one day FSF is hit with a billion dollar fine ?Jun 13 19:13
_Mutex_IFJun 13 19:13
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twitter1This Seth guy really paints a rosy picture for Novell that's not remotely connected to reality. 13 19:19
twitter1Novell's associations with M$ have nearly killed it.  That's far from, " As the number of Mono-only features grows, Red Hat's unwillingness to ship Mono begins affecting sales. Novell holds a competitive advantage (self-inflicted by Red Hat) because Red Hat-written features can be shipped by SuSE,"Jun 13 19:21
_Mutex_Red hat does not sell  software !!Jun 13 19:21
_Mutex_so how Mono can affect RH "sales" is amusing :)Jun 13 19:22
twitter1I can't begin to imagine a "mono only" feature.Jun 13 19:22
twitter1other than patent attacks.Jun 13 19:22
twitter1hmmmm, why am I twitter1?Jun 13 19:22
twitter1I'll have to try this again.  brbJun 13 19:22
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_Mutex_replace the word "mono" with "GPLv2 Code just like Linux Kernel" and continue your arguments.  :)Jun 13 19:23
_Mutex_and see how counter productive it soundsJun 13 19:23
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twitter1testJun 13 19:23
twitter1ugh.Jun 13 19:23
_Mutex_passedJun 13 19:23
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*twitter1 ( has joined #boycottnovellJun 13 19:24
twitter1still?Jun 13 19:24
twitter1I give up.Jun 13 19:24
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twitter1.Jun 13 19:25
twitter1\nick twitterJun 13 19:25
twitter1.Jun 13 19:25
_Mutex_other slashJun 13 19:25
maxstirnerhow do you reserve a nick on this icq net?Jun 13 19:26
maxstirnerirc sorryJun 13 19:26
twitter1.Jun 13 19:26
maxstirneri was actually maxstirner1 the other day, i think its autoassigned if theres someone on the net with your nickJun 13 19:27
twitter1the \/nick command should change your nicknameJun 13 19:27
maxstirnerit does but not if its a dupe i guess?Jun 13 19:27
_Mutex_its /nick superheroJun 13 19:28
twitter1freenode lets you chose a name and gives you a passwordJun 13 19:28
maxstirnerwhats the command?Jun 13 19:28
twitter1yeah, I put in the escape character to show the forward slashJun 13 19:28
twitter1Don't know the command, I did it months ago through the web, I think.Jun 13 19:29
schestowitz /nickJun 13 19:29
maxstirnerthats for setitn gthe nick..Jun 13 19:29
twitter1is it disabled, roy?Jun 13 19:29
maxstirner             /msg nickserv register <your-password> <your-email>Jun 13 19:29
twitter1.Jun 13 19:29
*twitter1 is now known as pbjJun 13 19:29
*pbj is now known as twitter1Jun 13 19:29
schestowitz*LOL*Jun 13 19:29
_Mutex_yayJun 13 19:29
twitter1nope, it won't give me twitter.Jun 13 19:29
schestowitzFoces of nym gravitatiionJun 13 19:30
twitter1oh wellJun 13 19:30
maxstirnerfreenode is big isnt it, its probably in useJun 13 19:32
maxstirnerjust reserve it next time you get it, i just reserved mine with a passwordJun 13 19:32
maxstirneras per 13 19:33
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twitter1twitter is reserved with a passwordJun 13 19:34
maxstirneroh really? thats odd thenJun 13 19:34
twitter1it was a lame password, so it may have been hijacked or something else may have happened.Jun 13 19:35
twitter1this is not the first timeJun 13 19:35
twitter1hmmm, I have to wonder what kind of nasty stuff someone may be doing with the twitter nickname.Jun 13 19:35
maxstirnerif it were on here you'd know about it ;)Jun 13 19:36
twitter1people at Slashdot already use typo variants of twitter, things like tvviterJun 13 19:36
_Mutex_its not like its popular or anything, but i hope not bad thingsJun 13 19:37
_Mutex_really that ssucksJun 13 19:37
twitter1they fill the place up with racist and other offensive trash using those namesJun 13 19:37
_Mutex_yes, well thats just plain  wrongJun 13 19:39
twitter1I collected some of them here 13 19:41
twitter1If you really want to see evidence that Slashdot's moderation system is completely failed, just look at the good moderation the troll give themselves in the form of twatter 13 19:43
MinceRtwitter1: have you registered it?Jun 13 19:43
MinceRit seems notJun 13 19:44
MinceRwell, you should have -- then you'd be able to take it back.Jun 13 19:44
twitter1I registered twitter, yes.Jun 13 19:44
twitter1here's an good example of nickname abuse 13 19:45
twitter1yes, the willyhill nym is also a troll attackJun 13 19:45
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MinceRyet nickserv says: 210007 [freenode] -NickServ(NickServ@services.)- twitter is not registered.Jun 13 19:46
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twitter1hmmmJun 13 19:49
maxstirnertry (re-)registering it?Jun 13 19:49
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MinceRhe can't register it as long as he doesn't hold itJun 13 19:50
twitter1why bother, if it's p0wned once, it will be p0ned again.Jun 13 19:50
MinceRperhaps it expiredJun 13 19:50
twitter1ahJun 13 19:50
MinceRnick expiration was introduced this week on freenode, iircJun 13 19:50
trmancololJun 13 19:50
twitter1expired?  why would an actively used nick expire?Jun 13 19:50
MinceRwell, if it was actively used, it couldn't have expiredJun 13 19:51
twitter1rightJun 13 19:51
twitter1and that leaves us with ... nothing.Jun 13 19:51
*twitter1 is now known as nothingJun 13 19:52
maxstirnerbug on new expire feature?Jun 13 19:52
*nothing is now known as bug1Jun 13 19:52
*bug1 is now known as nothingJun 13 19:52
nothingIt seems as though bug and nothing were registered but it let me have nothing without a problem.Jun 13 19:53
MinceRdunno, i'm no stafferJun 13 19:53
*nothing is now known as no_safferJun 13 19:53
no_safferwoopsJun 13 19:53
*no_saffer is now known as no_stafferJun 13 19:53
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no_stafferI have to wait 13 seconds before nym morphing agian.Jun 13 19:54
no_stafferIt is disgusting how the willyhill nym has excellent karma 13 19:54
clamiamhey guys, whats goin on in dis channel?Jun 13 19:54
_Mutex_all sorts of doings happening here :)Jun 13 19:55
no_stafferyes, it's been a free for troll lately.Jun 13 19:56
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twitter1It's nice when the trolls advertise their intent, 13 19:58
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twitter1wow, the twatter troll lasted about 4 years before migrating to the current sockdisclosure trollJun 13 19:59
clamiamtrue story: i gave up on slashdotJun 13 20:00
twitter1from march of 2005 to august of 2008Jun 13 20:00
clamiami just read Ars nowJun 13 20:00
twitter1I still submit stories there, but I have not been published in five months.Jun 13 20:00
twitter1BN has picked up the slack from Slashdot.Jun 13 20:01
clamiambn?Jun 13 20:01
twitter1Boycott Novell, Roy does a better jobJun 13 20:01
clamiami should prob start reading LWN againJun 13 20:01
yuhongI still read slashdot, but most often read Ars.Jun 13 20:01
_Mutex_why do people think free software is easier to port that MS's software,  you think FOSS is the only group with a compiler ?Jun 13 20:02
schestowitztwitter1: freenode emptied their DBJun 13 20:02
twitter1ahJun 13 20:02
twitter1why?Jun 13 20:02
schestowitzThey warned about it 5 days ago in #fsfJun 13 20:02
schestowitzMight be worth contacting them. I think they removed what they thought was deprecatedJun 13 20:02
yuhongBTW, I wrote a blog article on the issue of how AppleJun 13 20:03
yuhongBTW, I wrote a blog article on the issue of how Apple's 64-bit transition got disturbed by the Intel transition.Jun 13 20:03
yuhong 13 20:03
twitter1hmm, I think I need to reignore some peopleJun 13 20:03
clamiamyeah i always thought it was funny how the first intel OS Xs were 32-bitJun 13 20:04
schestowitzyuhong: please no PM.Jun 13 20:04
schestowitz<yuhong> So you hate web 2.0, right?Jun 13 20:04
schestowitz<yuhong> So, looks like you hate Web 2.0, right?Jun 13 20:04
yuhongOK, thanks.Jun 13 20:04
schestowitzI worry about itJun 13 20:04
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schestowitzIt;s the next challenge. To Apple tooJun 13 20:04
schestowitzAnd IBM, which is not prepared eitherJun 13 20:05
schestowitzGoogle is well setJun 13 20:05
schestowitzAll you data is[sic] belong to GoogleJun 13 20:05
yuhongI know!Jun 13 20:05
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] End of Microsoft Money Shows Why Free Software is Better and Standards Are Important < >Jun 13 20:05
twitter1all my money is belong to bankJun 13 20:05
twitter1sometimes, you can trust a service provider.  my money is mine, even when it's in the bank.Jun 13 20:06
yuhongO'Reilly was first to use the term.Jun 13 20:06
yuhongI think.Jun 13 20:06
twitter1Of course, I can keep my data for myself too.Jun 13 20:07
twitter1and I might want Google to respect my privacyJun 13 20:07
_Mutex_none of my data belings to google.Jun 13 20:07
yuhongBTW, I think MS is a good example of how to abuse social media.Jun 13 20:07
twitter1but really, I'm sick and tired of Google FUD.Jun 13 20:07
twitter1the biggest threat to privacy is Windows.Jun 13 20:07
yuhongAgreed, Google is not prefect, but it is far better than MS.Jun 13 20:07
_Mutex_biggest threat the privacy its the homeland security actJun 13 20:08
twitter1It's malware people run at home, at work, at the hospital and everywhere.Jun 13 20:08
yuhongThere are far far more FUD spreading around Google than legit criticism.Jun 13 20:08
_Mutex_and the feds being allowed to spy on US citizensJun 13 20:08
_Mutex_MS are badies compared to thatJun 13 20:08
yuhongBTW, remember malware is always the malware writer's fault.Jun 13 20:09
yuhongRegardless of OS.Jun 13 20:09
_Mutex_yes it isJun 13 20:09
_Mutex_and the criminal who breaks a lock to enter the buidling and steal is a criminal, not the manufacturer of the lockJun 13 20:10
yuhongYep.Jun 13 20:10
_Mutex_man who pulls the trigger, not the gun and so on, we get the picture LOLJun 13 20:10
yuhongThe security flaw in the lock that allow the criminal to get in may be the manufacturer's fault.Jun 13 20:10
twitter1ut oh, freenode might not want me to be twitter   "Please avoid using the name of a community project or trademarked entity"Jun 13 20:10
_Mutex_the crim still has the break the law the exploit the lock,  he's just as much a crim, if there is NO lock at all.Jun 13 20:11
yuhongtwitter1: What is your real name?Jun 13 20:11
twitter1I've been twitter for a decade and don't think well of the upstart microblogging service.Jun 13 20:11
yuhongCorrect.Jun 13 20:11
_Mutex_Locks only are designed to keep honest people outJun 13 20:11
yuhongYep, locks are not and never has been perfect.Jun 13 20:12
_Mutex_wow twitter, you should of copyrighted that name :)Jun 13 20:12
neighborleenice..the robert wordpress is getting lots of antidebian sentiment due to mono attempt  to install by default..Jun 13 20:12
_Mutex_reading the buzz on the net, it seems the general attitude is that this Mono things is causing the FOSS industry to implode, ripping itself apart.Jun 13 20:13
_Mutex_any "outsider" looking at it from the outside will no doubt want to think twice or 3 times before moving to FOSS, after all, now they cant even trust the GPL !!. thats baddddJun 13 20:15
neighborleewellJun 13 20:15
neighborleemay or may not be M$ attempt to divide and conquerJun 13 20:15
neighborleebut  if it is.. a nice side effect..whose fault is it, that we're imploding..M$, or us.Jun 13 20:16
neighborleethe foundation should be strong enough, to avert infestation.Jun 13 20:16
_Mutex_all MS did was attempt to work with FOSS,  I dont see MS imploding much at all at present, do you ?Jun 13 20:16
_Mutex_buts the infestation is allready here, and its due to what FSF's GPLd code.Jun 13 20:17
neighborleeballmer: 'linux is a cancer'Jun 13 20:17
neighborleecome again ?Jun 13 20:17
_Mutex_its not MS attacking Linux, its FOSs attacking Ununtu, debian and so on.Jun 13 20:17
yuhongI know, and of course that is just FUD.Jun 13 20:17
_Mutex_its FOSS FUD'ing other FOSS !Jun 13 20:18
_Mutex_and putting into question the validity of the GPLJun 13 20:18
neighborleeyou sound just like Jo shields now ;)..him and his anger rantsJun 13 20:18
neighborlee a real potty mouthJun 13 20:19
fewa_Mutex_, youve been FUDding all dayJun 13 20:19
_Mutex_All im saying is Mono is GPLv2 and by that definition its patent unencumbered,  potty mouth refers to foul language, I dont use thatJun 13 20:19
yuhongSun Microsystems is in contrast a good example of how to use Web 2.0.Jun 13 20:19
_Mutex_Point to something ive said that is not factural ?Jun 13 20:19
neighborlee_Mutex_, so you dont know about the groklaw article I presume ?Jun 13 20:20
neighborlee_Mutex_, and fedor'as latest stance on keeping it out of fedora 12 ?Jun 13 20:20
*tacone has quit (Remote closed the connection)Jun 13 20:20
neighborlee_Mutex_, etc.....I could go on farther but ill let you soak that in first.Jun 13 20:20
neighborlee:)Jun 13 20:20
_Mutex_groklaw, thats not a biased site by any chance :) ok point me to the link that the groklaw article refers to. ie the underlying factsJun 13 20:21
yuhongAfter reading something, I just found another fundementally flaw in PR.Jun 13 20:21
_Mutex_I know some FOSS groups dont like it, thats the problem.Jun 13 20:21
neighborlee_Mutex_, your right its not biasedJun 13 20:21
yuhongIt assumes that perception can be manipulated independently of the truth.Jun 13 20:21
_Mutex_why would some FOSS groups not accept GPLd code the very GPL teh FSF approved (and wrote) for FOSS ?Jun 13 20:21
neighborlee_Mutex_, if you can't debunk its claims, then your argument is fudJun 13 20:22
fewa^^Jun 13 20:22
_Mutex_I cant prove a negative, no one can , you know thatJun 13 20:22
_Mutex_I hopeJun 13 20:22
neighborleewell try wont youJun 13 20:22
neighborleeyou seem..reasonably intelligentJun 13 20:22
neighborlee^^Jun 13 20:22
_Mutex_point me to the source of the data and I will happily debunk itJun 13 20:22
neighborleeI already didJun 13 20:23
_Mutex_look are deceptive LOLJun 13 20:23
_Mutex_link plsJun 13 20:23
neighborlee 13 20:23
_Mutex_the original information, not the groklaw interpretation o fitJun 13 20:23
fewa_Mutex_, it links to all its sourcesJun 13 20:23
_Mutex_okJun 13 20:23
fewa_Mutex_, thats why its so reputableJun 13 20:23
neighborlee_Mutex_, Rather than guess, I wrote to the Software Freedom Law Center, asking if they could answer some questions about it, and Dan Ravicher eventually answered my questions. The bottom line? I'd say this stuff is radioactive. But you can judge for yourself. "" <<<Jun 13 20:23
neighborlee_Mutex_, try that oneJun 13 20:24
schestowitzneighborlee: Robert also gets some opposition there to Maulette (?)Jun 13 20:24
neighborleeyupJun 13 20:24
_Mutex_funny my page from your link comtains NO links whatsoever !!!Jun 13 20:24
_Mutex_is that just me ?Jun 13 20:24
neighborleeapparantlyJun 13 20:24
neighborlee:)Jun 13 20:24
_Mutex_moonlight != MonoJun 13 20:25
_Mutex_do you know actually what mono is ?Jun 13 20:25
neighborlee_Mutex_, no commment about the radioactive judgement ?Jun 13 20:25
neighborlee_Mutex_, no tell meJun 13 20:25
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fewa_Mutex_, its a diseaseJun 13 20:25
_Mutex_its a development platform like Java !! but im sure you know thatJun 13 20:26
neighborleewell its good to have things clear .Jun 13 20:26
neighborlee:)Jun 13 20:26
_Mutex_so something that is GPLv2 can be a disease ?? gee whats that say for the FSF  ? and the GPL ?Jun 13 20:26
_Mutex_it cant be good.Jun 13 20:26
fewa_Mutex_, you asked me what mono isJun 13 20:26
_Mutex_how can we trust the GPL or FSF for that matter ?Jun 13 20:26
fewayou didnt specify which monoJun 13 20:26
_Mutex_I know what it isJun 13 20:26
_Mutex_and what it isnt, it isnt moonlightJun 13 20:27
fewa 13 20:27
neighborlee_Mutex_, and moonlight is def. a threat..or do you also think its safe ?Jun 13 20:27
neighborlee_Mutex_, cause we know what fedora thinks about itJun 13 20:27
fewathe disease is characterized by fever, sore throat and fatigue, along with several other possible signs and symptoms.Jun 13 20:27
neighborlee_Mutex_, fedora, whom is now removing monoJun 13 20:27
maxstirnerthey really need some workers rights in the US to stop the corporate lackeys from working weekends#Jun 13 20:27
neighborlee:)Jun 13 20:27
fewa_Mutex_, and its viralJun 13 20:27
_Mutex_Mono is a .NET framework for development, written by MS, licenses under the GPL  , therefore non-patent encumbered, just like the Linux Kernel its simply a chunk of GPLv2 code no more no less.Jun 13 20:28
neighborlee_Mutex_, you mean the invisible ECMA license ??Jun 13 20:28
_Mutex_Just like Linus Torvald's Linux KernelJun 13 20:28
neighborlee_Mutex_, tell us more ;)Jun 13 20:28
_Mutex_an invisible license ??? you mean nothing ?Jun 13 20:28
_Mutex_ 13 20:29
neighborlee_Mutex_, great source ;)Jun 13 20:30
neighborleereal unbiased.Jun 13 20:30
neighborlee:)Jun 13 20:30
_Mutex_biased or not, the fact is thats the mono license, how can you say its otherwise ?? if you can please link it for us.Jun 13 20:30
twitter1shestowitz, this does not display an irc log.Jun 13 20:30
_Mutex_I showed you mine, you show me yours LOLJun 13 20:30
fewa_Mutex_, you already got your linksJun 13 20:30
fewa_Mutex_, you just wont accept reason and intellectJun 13 20:31
_Mutex_and i looked at them, unfortunately they did not provide any information to support your argument, so what else do you have. ?Jun 13 20:31
_Mutex_No I prefer facts thanksJun 13 20:31
twitter1mutex is better when ignored.Jun 13 20:32
_Mutex_lol im sure it is :)Jun 13 20:32
_Mutex_sorry you cant see that :)Jun 13 20:32
_Mutex_its easier to ignore me than to provide facts to back up your case I understand :)Jun 13 20:32
_Mutex_and its ok.Jun 13 20:33
twitter1so the trolls attack Debian now?Jun 13 20:33
neighborlee_Mutex_, just in case you dont know,, or might have forgotten,,here is this also this : 13 20:33
neighborlee_Mutex_, its up to you of course to counter, or not..debate being what it isJun 13 20:33
_Mutex_ahh zdnet talkback, that should be factural,, we'll see :)Jun 13 20:34
_Mutex_yes it is, and yes I will :)Jun 13 20:34
neighborleetwitter1, yesJun 13 20:34
neighborleetwitter1, but they are getting stiff oppositionJun 13 20:34
twitter1of course, Debian is a community, much more difficult to trick and bully than a companyJun 13 20:35
neighborleeyupJun 13 20:36
twitter1I see someone from Debian has taken offense at Jo Shield's misuse of his titles. 13 20:37
twitter1" Please don’t discredit other members of the Debian Mono Group. It’s a team maintaining the Mono runtime and needed/used components around it."Jun 13 20:38
twitter1I'm afraid that mono is discredited by M$ directly.Jun 13 20:39
schestowitzSUSE Interoperability and Mono Good for Microsoft: Easier Migration to Windows < >Jun 13 20:39
neighborleetwitter1, woahJun 13 20:39
neighborleetwitter1, time such tactics never last long..short bursts of burnOUT ;)Jun 13 20:40
_Mutex_I would love to see where MS is descrediting Mono ,,Jun 13 20:40
_Mutex_directlyJun 13 20:40
twitter1What's the SLOG quote, "Every line of code written to M$ standards is a small victory, every line to someone else's a small defeat"Jun 13 20:42
twitter1that we are even talking about a second rate language that none of us would consider using is something of a victory for M$.Jun 13 20:43
_Mutex_whats a SLOG ?Jun 13 20:43
schestowitztwitter1: see latest blog postJun 13 20:44
schestowitzThe quote is there, coincidentallyJun 13 20:44
twitter1it is appropriateJun 13 20:44
twitter1I was enjoying the $300 botnet creation article from cnet.Jun 13 20:45
_Mutex_so all them FOSS apps that work on MS systems ??Jun 13 20:45
_Mutex_good or bad ?Jun 13 20:45
_Mutex_they are to MS's standards arnt theyJun 13 20:45
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] SUSE Interoperability and Mono Good for Microsoft: Easier Migration to Windows < >Jun 13 20:45
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_Mutex_its also easier migration to Linux from windowsJun 13 20:46
twitter1M$ people are crazy.  What has ever been hard about pulling data from a Linux server?Jun 13 20:46
twitter1Only M$ people make that kind of thing difficult.Jun 13 20:47
Tallkenschestowitz, that quote of Stallman about Emacs and vi really doesn't fit in "End of Microsoft Money Shows Why Free Software is Better and Standards Are Important" article... it'd be better without it, IMOJun 13 20:47
_Mutex_nothing, its just as easy as pulling data from a solaris server, a VMS server, a BSD server, even a MS serverJun 13 20:47
_Mutex_a servers job is to ,,, well SERVEJun 13 20:48
twitter1GNU/Linux servers will always be needed because they Work.Jun 13 20:48
_Mutex_yes, things that work tend to be better.Jun 13 20:48
_Mutex_ive got a really old Vic20 computer here, it still works, but I dont need it.Jun 13 20:50
twitter1no way, Talken, the RMS quote had me laughing out loud.Jun 13 20:51
Tallkentwitter1, it has nothing to do with the article!Jun 13 20:52
Tallkenfor an outsider it is a completely unrelated and not-understandable quoteJun 13 20:52
Tallkeneven for an insiderJun 13 20:52
twitter1is it a Sin to use .DOC as long as you use Open Office?Jun 13 20:52
TallkenI know the quoteJun 13 20:52
_Mutex_“Every line of code that is written to our standards is a small victory; every line of code that is written to any other standard, is a small defeat.”Jun 13 20:52
_Mutex_Can I get a copy of teh FOSS coding standard Pls ??Jun 13 20:53
TallkenhumJun 13 20:53
TallkenstillJun 13 20:53
twitter1the quote is about freedom and that's exactly what the article is aboutJun 13 20:53
TallkenI understand you, but I disagree about the coherence with the article, I believe it'd be better if it wasn't there.Jun 13 20:54
Tallkenanyway, just my 2 centsJun 13 20:54
Tallken_Mutex_, ? you want the GNU coding guidelines? :pJun 13 20:54
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_Mutex_im more interested in QA standards, standard programming methodology, Code review and analysis methods, but having a "guidelines" is a great start. but only a start.Jun 13 20:56
twitter1from the Debian package description, "  Gnucash can track finances in multiple accounts, keeping running  and reconciled balances. It has an X based graphical user interface,  double entry, a hierarchy of accounts, expense accounts (categories),  and can import Quicken QIF files and OFX files"Jun 13 20:56
twitter1what file format did M$ Money use?Jun 13 20:56
_Mutex_sounds exactly what MS money does, or MYOB or one of a hundred other finance software packages, you would expect no less.Jun 13 20:57
_Mutex_well I wouldJun 13 20:57
twitter1Here's someone who looked the problem in the face last year 13 20:58
twitter1looks like he's going to have to keep looking at it.Jun 13 20:58
twitter1never mind, he escaped 13 20:58
Tallken_Mutex_, I'll cite Documentation/CodingStyle.txt from the Linux kernel source tree: «First off, I'd suggest printing out a copy of the GNU coding standards,Jun 13 20:58
Tallkenand NOT read it.  Burn them, it's a great symbolic gesture.»Jun 13 20:58
MinceRalso, the bike shed should be greenJun 13 20:59
twitter1ah, his solution "let it go"Jun 13 20:59
schestowitzHi, Tallken Jun 13 21:00
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[_goblin] Whats unique about Windows 7? Openbytes article: #microsoft #windows 7 #windows #vista #xp #linux #foss #7Jun 13 21:00
Tallkenhi schestowitzJun 13 21:00
schestowitzThanks, let's leave the quote. it's no big deal, IMHOJun 13 21:00
schestowitzHalf the readers use GNU/LinuxJun 13 21:01
schestowitzSo it's not a jaw-dropperJun 13 21:01
twitter1ah ha, here's what people need. 13 21:02
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_Mutex_*.mny *.MBF(backup file) and several others like Mn for backup version numbersJun 13 21:03
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_Goblingood link twitter1Jun 13 21:03
twitter1thanksJun 13 21:04
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twitter1it took me a while to findJun 13 21:04
yuhongOn the matter of MS extensions to ACPI, have you heard of ACPI WMI?Jun 13 21:04
DaemonFCI figured out what's wrong with my webcam, the settings you give it are stored in the device and Vista has an entirely different set of settings for it than the UVC driver in LinuxJun 13 21:04
yuhong 13 21:04
_Mutex_this time, it was easier on google than Bing, go figure for anMS product :)Jun 13 21:04
_GoblinI hope you don't mind if I refer to it on one of the articles Im running at the moment...Jun 13 21:04
DaemonFCSo every time one system access it, I have to reset it when I boot into the otherJun 13 21:05
_Mutex_DeamonFC, as you would expectJun 13 21:05
_Hicham_that is good for u DaemonFCJun 13 21:05
_Hicham_some extra workJun 13 21:05
twitter1Windows breaks everything it touches.Jun 13 21:06
DaemonFCThe UVC driver in Vista is actually compliant with the UVC standardJun 13 21:06
twitter1nothing new there.Jun 13 21:06
DaemonFCbut the Logitech driver is notJun 13 21:06
DaemonFCthis is Logitech's fault, not VistaJun 13 21:06
DaemonFCthey have their own driver with their own featuresJun 13 21:06
DaemonFCwhat's funny is that the UVC driver in Linux is still betterJun 13 21:06
_Hicham_better resolution?Jun 13 21:07
DaemonFCyepJun 13 21:07
DaemonFCthe Logitech driver has face tracking, the Linux one doesn'tJun 13 21:07
twitter1resolve Vista issues by deleting VistaJun 13 21:07
DaemonFCand I don't like that feature anywayJun 13 21:07
DaemonFCit doesn't work rightJun 13 21:07
yuhongtwitter1: Sometimes that is nesserary, yes, but that is kind of extreme.Jun 13 21:10
yuhongVista works OK for me, but I am thinking of freeing disk space and installing Ubuntu.Jun 13 21:10
_Hicham_yuhong : u won'tJun 13 21:11
_Hicham_u r a Vista loverJun 13 21:11
DaemonFCUbuntu......dear godJun 13 21:11
*DaemonFC pulls out the cattle prod and does some shock therapyJun 13 21:11
_Mutex_how can you "love" software ?? I mean really !!!!Jun 13 21:12
DaemonFCyou keep spraying and spraying for them, but they keep coming backJun 13 21:12
DaemonFC(Ubuntu fanboys)Jun 13 21:12
_Mutex_its like a mechanic loving a spannerJun 13 21:12
_Hicham_yes, like u do _Mutex_Jun 13 21:12
DaemonFCI doubt anyone particularly likes VistaJun 13 21:12
_Hicham_u love muticesJun 13 21:12
_Mutex_actually forget that, the mental picture is a bit scary LOLJun 13 21:12
_Hicham_and critical sectionsJun 13 21:12
DaemonFCmost people either don't know they're using Windows or has it because of the millions that don't know they're using it but have created a market for Windows softwareJun 13 21:13
_Hicham_DaemonFC loves nothingJun 13 21:13
DaemonFC*haveJun 13 21:13
_Hicham_the computer is WindowsJun 13 21:13
_Hicham_Windows = ComputerJun 13 21:13
DaemonFCpretty muchJun 13 21:13
DaemonFCsold with the computerJun 13 21:13
DaemonFCsupported for the same amount of time as the hardwareJun 13 21:14
_Hicham_some people ask : which Windows is that computer?Jun 13 21:14
DaemonFCthe recovery DVD puts Windows back onJun 13 21:14
DaemonFC:)Jun 13 21:14
DaemonFCthe people at your ISP ask if Linux is some kind of MacJun 13 21:14
DaemonFCseriously, they didJun 13 21:14
_Mutex_when im working on something like a peice of electronics sometimes I need a flat blade screwdriver, sometimes a philips head, and sometimes a torque driver, Different tool for different jobs, OS's and computers are exactly the same, its a tool to do a job, no more , no less. some tools work well for some things some done, they require another tool. its not that hardJun 13 21:14
DaemonFCeverytime the cable goes out and comes back up, the modem loads ""Jun 13 21:15
_Hicham__Mutex_ : hardware is not softwareJun 13 21:15
DaemonFCand asks you to install their Windows setup softwareJun 13 21:15
_Mutex_so sometimes I like philips head screwdrivers, because I have a philips screw to turn, sometimes I have a flat screw to turn, that requires another tool.Jun 13 21:15
DaemonFCevery page you go toJun 13 21:15
_Mutex_gee really !!! I never knew that :)Jun 13 21:15
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_Mutex_go figure, hardware is not software, , hardware and software are just tools.  and the thing with hardware (ie computers) is that they are useless without softwareJun 13 21:16
DaemonFC"Linux? Is that some kind of Mac then?"Jun 13 21:16
*DaemonFC thinking "No you stupid twit, it's a cat in a hat"Jun 13 21:16
_Mutex_therefore they are one and the same, it is a tool a device to do things with, like a screwdriverJun 13 21:16
_Mutex_sam i amJun 13 21:17
yuhongI am not that much of a Vista lover, in fact I am neutral.Jun 13 21:17
starcannonHey everyone, after doing some reading up on your site, and others, I have decided to clean mono out of my install; can anyone recommend an Ubuntu easy distro that is mono free?Jun 13 21:17
DaemonFC32-bit x86? Use Mandriva One KDEJun 13 21:17
DaemonFCno mono on thatJun 13 21:17
_Hicham__Mutex_ : from ur point of view yesJun 13 21:17
_Mutex_neutral, how dare you be neutral here, you have to come here with pre-conceived idea'sJun 13 21:17
_Hicham_if u r seeing them as tools onlyJun 13 21:18
starcannonDaemonFC i left mandriva because of the whole "Club Mandriva" stuff, is that resolved?Jun 13 21:18
_Mutex_what do you see it as ?Jun 13 21:18
DaemonFCstarcannon: Most KDE distros don't have MonoJun 13 21:18
DaemonFCmost GNOME ones doJun 13 21:18
_Mutex_if not a tool then what is it?Jun 13 21:18
DaemonFCso you could just switch to KubuntuJun 13 21:18
DaemonFCif you don't want to relearn everythingJun 13 21:18
starcannonDaemonFC nod, cool, I'll just google it then, just thought this would be the place to find a list for a lazy git like myself ;)Jun 13 21:19
fewaDebian GNOMe also doesnt have mono AFAIKJun 13 21:19
_Hicham_Mono is everywhereJun 13 21:19
DaemonFCDebian has MonoJun 13 21:19
DaemonFCand BansheeJun 13 21:19
DaemonFCand F-SpotJun 13 21:19
fewaDaemonFC, not by defaultJun 13 21:19
DaemonFCand MonsoonJun 13 21:19
_Hicham_slackware doesn't have mono I thinkJun 13 21:19
_Mutex_mono is as common as GPLed code ... oh wait,,Jun 13 21:19
DaemonFCyes Mono is defaultJun 13 21:19
DaemonFCon DebianJun 13 21:19
fewaDaemonFC, gmm i installed lenny GNOMEJun 13 21:19
fewaand upgraded through testing and dont have itJun 13 21:19
_Hicham_lenny don't haveJun 13 21:20
DaemonFCare you sure?Jun 13 21:20
fewagnome-desktop-environment has not pulled it inJun 13 21:20
_Hicham_sid willJun 13 21:20
DaemonFCI had it when I was trying LennyJun 13 21:20
DaemonFCit was an old version thoughJun 13 21:20
fewayesJun 13 21:20
_Mutex_just in-install itJun 13 21:20
starcannonDaemonFC nod, I've known there to be Mono in my Ubuntu install for sometime, but I decided to wait, read, and see before I made up my mind to ditch it (you have to admit many of the mono apps are very good, I just don't like the license)Jun 13 21:20
_Hicham_Debian have moonlight tooJun 13 21:20
_Mutex_you guys have total control of your OS, so im told.Jun 13 21:20
_Mutex_should be trivial to bash out a command to wipe it from your rigJun 13 21:20
DaemonFCwell, there's no QT bindings for Mono yetJun 13 21:20
_Hicham__Mutex_ : what is ur OS?Jun 13 21:20
DaemonFCas far as I knowJun 13 21:21
_Mutex_hang on ill checkJun 13 21:21
_Hicham_DaemonFC : make themJun 13 21:21
DaemonFCwhen there's a QT#, KDE distros may bundle MonoJun 13 21:21
yuhongIn fact your claim that I will never install Linux just make me want to install it more.Jun 13 21:21
_Hicham_DaemonFC# is a good bindingJun 13 21:21
starcannon_Mutex_ removing Mono isn't the issue, I want to use and support distro's that do not put it in by default, I don't mind it being in the repository; indeed, I believe in freedom of choice, but I do not like it there on my liveCDJun 13 21:21
DaemonFCstarcannon: You can uninstall Mono, it comes right out, just replace F-Spot with gphoto and Tomboy with gnoteJun 13 21:21
*DaemonFC is now known as DaemonFC-SharpJun 13 21:22
DaemonFC-Sharp:)Jun 13 21:22
starcannonsnickerJun 13 21:22
fewafedora 11 gnome doesnt seem to have monoJun 13 21:22
fewabut im not a rpm masterJun 13 21:22
*DaemonFC-Sharp is now known as DaemonFCJun 13 21:23
_Hicham_using System.Virus.DaemonFCJun 13 21:23
*DaemonFC is now known as WindowsJun 13 21:23
Windows:PJun 13 21:23
starcannonfewa yeah I just read that they purged it from the default install, its certainly one I'm consideringJun 13 21:23
*Windows is now known as DaemonFCJun 13 21:23
_Hicham_what is the meaning of FC?Jun 13 21:23
_Hicham_u never answered thatJun 13 21:24
starcannonFedora Core?Jun 13 21:24
_Mutex_sory I dont own an os, but mabey if we keep growing untold distro's I may just have my own OS (distro) except Linus will really own the bulk of it, and the FSF the rest, so No i dont see me owning an OS any time soon,,, and you ??Jun 13 21:24
_Hicham_I don't think soJun 13 21:24
fewastarcannon, a very free distrobution, and redhat/fedora does alot of cutting edge work in linuxJun 13 21:24
DaemonFCsudo apt-get install windowsformsdaemonfcJun 13 21:24
DaemonFC:)Jun 13 21:24
_Mutex_football clubJun 13 21:25
*DaemonFC is now known as DaemonMDV-SharpJun 13 21:25
_Mutex_like manchester united FCJun 13 21:25
*DaemonMDV-Sharp is now known as DaemonMDVJun 13 21:25
DaemonMDVyes, it's a misnomer I knowJun 13 21:25
starcannonI noticed that Minix seems to still be in development :) heheJun 13 21:25
starcannonat least as late as April of this yearJun 13 21:26
_Hicham_rpm -ivh DaemonFC-Sharp-2.4.0-1mdv2009.1.i586.rpmJun 13 21:26
DaemonMDVMinix is not bad, very novelJun 13 21:26
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DaemonMDVI've put it on a 486 laptopJun 13 21:26
DaemonMDVit can load X and Equinox DesktopJun 13 21:26
DaemonMDVit's pretty fast tooJun 13 21:26
starcannonDaemonMDV yeah, I installed it on a virtual machine, it was cool, but not ready to be my desktop just yetJun 13 21:26
DaemonMDVwell no, it's not production grade (whatever that is)Jun 13 21:27
*DaemonMDV suspects it's like LinspireJun 13 21:27
DaemonMDV:)Jun 13 21:27
starcannonlolJun 13 21:27
_Mutex_its been around for a million years,Jun 13 21:27
starcannonIt inspired LinusJun 13 21:27
DaemonMDV 13 21:28
DaemonMDV:)Jun 13 21:28
_Mutex_it was the example os that Linus used as a basis for his Linux, and yes i know Minix is a micro-kernel and Linux is monolithic but they are both Posix/Unix based.Jun 13 21:28
starcannonI virtualized linspire once, there were some cool ideas in itJun 13 21:28
DaemonMDVJust one click install for youJun 13 21:28
DaemonMDVthen the binary blob will take you higherJun 13 21:28
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_Hicham_DaemonMDV : did u have KMS on Mandriva?Jun 13 21:29
starcannon_Mutex_ wasn't Minix always (at least back then) a CS educational tool? I thought I read that somewhere, just trying to remember if I'm recalling correctlyJun 13 21:29
DaemonMDVI think it supports it, but only on IntelJun 13 21:30
_Mutex_yes it was, it was in a text book on OS design.Jun 13 21:30
yuhongYep, on Minix, I remember MS paying Ken Brown to allege that Linux copied code from Minix.Jun 13 21:30
yuhongTo spread FUD, of course.Jun 13 21:30
starcannonyuhong yeah, and he did quite the oppositeJun 13 21:30
_Hicham_DaemonMDV : it is a shame that fedora is the only one to support KMSJun 13 21:31
_Mutex_had all the code segments and UNIX structure in it, Linus took each segment and re-wrote them for Linux, sort of semi-cleanroom methodJun 13 21:31
fewaKMS?Jun 13 21:31
yuhongAnd of course, there was the Linus-Tannibium debate about microkernels.Jun 13 21:31
_Hicham_I really don't respect the other distrosJun 13 21:31
_Mutex_read Linus's initial letter, and watch RMS on a video (which i cant remember the name) where he said, "we took each block from Unix and replaced them one by one with OUR code".Jun 13 21:31
starcannonaye, and I'd fell relatively safe betting that this far down the road, anything that could be mistaken for other code has been scouredJun 13 21:31
_Hicham_all the others are waiting for upstream to stabilize itJun 13 21:32
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_Mutex_so there were times when Linux code and Minux/Unix code were running together, but over time the Minux/Unix peices were replaced block by block.Jun 13 21:32
starcannonyeah I keep meaning to read up on the micro vs monolithic kernel debateJun 13 21:32
_Mutex_thats from RMS's mountJun 13 21:32
_Hicham_micro kernel is just a mythJun 13 21:32
_Mutex_mouthJun 13 21:32
_Hicham_micro kernel is obsoleteJun 13 21:32
MinceR_Hicham_: how so?Jun 13 21:33
_Mutex_sure if you consider AmigaOS a mythJun 13 21:33
_Mutex_AmigaOS was years ahead of its time,Jun 13 21:33
_Goblinwow...Jun 13 21:33
_GoblinI agree with Mutex on somethingJun 13 21:33
_Hicham_what about its hardware support?Jun 13 21:33
_Mutex_LOLJun 13 21:33
_Goblinand completely.Jun 13 21:33
_Mutex_I should now shut up while im aheadJun 13 21:33
_Goblin;) or maybe I should?Jun 13 21:33
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_Hicham_u r not aheadJun 13 21:34
_Hicham_it is a very old ideaJun 13 21:34
mib_5506kaGood evening!Jun 13 21:34
_Hicham_from Sir TannenbaumJun 13 21:34
_Mutex_The MOST secure OS EAL 7 i think is a micro-kernal os.Jun 13 21:35
_Mutex_Linux and windows tops out at EAL4Jun 13 21:35
_Hicham_does it perform well?Jun 13 21:35
mib_5506kaHow about exokernels? Not that I have seen any alive. But the concept is interesting.Jun 13 21:36
_Mutex_im sure it does,Jun 13 21:36
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_Hicham_monolithic kernels will stay for everJun 13 21:37
MinceRmib_5506ka: what are exokernels?Jun 13 21:37
_Hicham_as they perform better than the other onesJun 13 21:38
MinceR_Hicham_: also, 640k ought to be enough for anybodyJun 13 21:38
mib_5506kaMonolithis is in principle OK, I just fear ar bit waht happens when they grow and grow.Jun 13 21:38
MinceRand nothing that's heavier than air can flyJun 13 21:38
_Mutex_all monolithic means is all the drivers and other crap in the OS, not necessary for kernel functions are lunped into one blob, micro-kernel means those extra bits are where they should be in user land, not progected land where they can do more damage and higher risk.Jun 13 21:38
MinceRand you can only produce light by burningJun 13 21:38
MinceR_Hicham_: performance is not the only thing that matters.Jun 13 21:38
mib_5506ka 13 21:39
_Hicham_MinceR : what else matters?Jun 13 21:39
MinceR_Hicham_: reliability, security, functionalityJun 13 21:39
mib_5506ka" Exokernels are tiny, since functionality is limited to ensuring protection and multiplexing of resources, which are vastly simpler than conventional microkernels' implementation of message passing and monolithic kernels' implementation of abstractions."Jun 13 21:39
_Mutex_one time someone said there will be no more than 3 computers on the planet, thats all we'll ever need !!Jun 13 21:39
mib_5506kaMaybe it is enough, I have just two.Jun 13 21:39
_Mutex_the kernel is tiny, but its can still have all the functionality of a mono os just that functionality is not in Kernel spaceJun 13 21:40
DaemonMDVit looks liek Fedora 11 is a little faster than Ubuntu on most of the Phoronix test suiteJun 13 21:40
DaemonMDVdoesn't surprise meJun 13 21:40
MinceRmib_5506ka: the exokernel idea doesn't seem to convincing to meJun 13 21:40
_Hicham_Fedora 11 is the fastest distro in the marketJun 13 21:40
_Hicham_no doubtJun 13 21:40
_Hicham_from my experienceJun 13 21:40
DaemonMDVI like Mandriva so farJun 13 21:41
DaemonMDVFedora 11 would be OK if it wasn't for the partitioning nightmareJun 13 21:41
mib_5506kaRight now I run Suse and Mepis (Debian).Jun 13 21:41
_Hicham_partitioning?Jun 13 21:41
_Mutex_reliability, stability, functionality, quality, asthetics, performance, availability, support, ... and soon,Jun 13 21:41
_Hicham_u have GPartedJun 13 21:41
_Hicham_like UbuntuJun 13 21:41
DaemonMDVnoJun 13 21:42
DaemonMDVthey want to use LVM, and you have to have an Ext3 boot partitionJun 13 21:42
mib_5506kaI did select Mepis for an old laptop, it was the first that did install easily.Jun 13 21:42
starcannonstarted to read the Linus vs.Tanenbaum debate, but after reading the number 8088 more than once I realized that while historically interesting, it was not likely going to matter other wiseJun 13 21:42
_Hicham_of course u should have a boot partitionJun 13 21:42
DaemonMDVof course it really doesn't matterJun 13 21:42
_Hicham_upstream won't put ext4 support in grub for a whileJun 13 21:43
_Hicham_until ext4 will be stableJun 13 21:43
DaemonMDVFedora can boto Ext4Jun 13 21:43
mib_5506kaOn external (USB) disks I do not bother with a boot partition, I reorganixe the that often.Jun 13 21:43
trmancohehJun 13 21:43
DaemonMDVbut you have to trick itJun 13 21:43
DaemonMDV*bootJun 13 21:43
trmancoDaemonMDV, let me guess, you're on KDE?Jun 13 21:43
DaemonMDVit's not that GRUB is incapableJun 13 21:43
_Hicham_with a patch for grub, I knowJun 13 21:43
DaemonMDVno, Fedora 10's GRUB can boot Ext4Jun 13 21:43
_Hicham_I am against that patch for nowJun 13 21:44
DaemonMDVtheir file system guy is weird and doesn't trust itJun 13 21:44
_Hicham_no, upstream grub doesn't boot into ext4Jun 13 21:44
_Hicham_that is whyJun 13 21:44
_Hicham_they stick to upstreamJun 13 21:44
starcannon_Hicham_ thats a goodness, I checked it out on 9.04, it is finicky, and I am not geeky enough to know why. It would work on some hardware, and not on other (oh it was fine until post install stuff like adding in hardware specific kernel modules etc..)Jun 13 21:44
_Hicham_they can patch it like ubuntu, but they respect upstreamJun 13 21:44
_Hicham_plus, Ubuntu 9.04 with ext4 have caused some damage on some disksJun 13 21:45
mib_5506kaIs ext4 in good shape? I use to be quite conseravtive when choosing file systems; I let it be a few years old before using it.Jun 13 21:45
DaemonMDV_Hicham_: Fedora 10 can boot Ext4Jun 13 21:45
_Hicham_due to their funny patchesJun 13 21:45
_Mutex_Green Hills Software obtains EAL6+ operating system security certificationJun 13 21:46
DaemonMDVthe setup program won't let youJun 13 21:46
DaemonMDVbut you can rig it that way laterJun 13 21:46
_Mutex_ 13 21:46
_Hicham_u mean that grub can be installed on an ext4 partition?Jun 13 21:46
DaemonMDVthe only thing keeping Fedora from booting on Ext4 is that their setup program won't allow itJun 13 21:46
DaemonMDVtheir version of GRUB can and willJun 13 21:46
DaemonMDVyesJun 13 21:47
_Hicham_it is 0.97Jun 13 21:47
DaemonMDVMandriva can boot Ext4 or XFS, so can UbuntuJun 13 21:47
twitter1bblJun 13 21:47
DaemonMDVSuse can boot XFSJun 13 21:47
DaemonMDVExt4 will be in 11.2Jun 13 21:47
mib_5506kaSure. I do it.Jun 13 21:47
mib_5506kaBoot XFS.Jun 13 21:47
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_GoblinMDV...What does that mean?Jun 13 21:48
DaemonMDVI'm using Ext4 for everything on this systemJun 13 21:48
mib_5506kaIs it reliable enough?Jun 13 21:48
DaemonMDVas long as you have kernel 13 21:49
DaemonMDVthen yeahJun 13 21:49
DaemonMDVthe Ext4 patches for 2.6.30 are being backported into the 2.6.29 point releasesJun 13 21:49
DaemonMDVso it shouldn't be any more dangerous than Ext3Jun 13 21:49
_Hicham_2.6.30 have been releasedJun 13 21:50
_Hicham_why use 2.6.29?Jun 13 21:50
DaemonMDVyeah, so?Jun 13 21:50
starcannonI'm still running 2.6.27-14Jun 13 21:50
DaemonMDVis there a reason I need to use thousands of lines of untested code?Jun 13 21:50
_Hicham_untested?Jun 13 21:50
mib_5506kaWe got a lot of file system, but still I have not seen any usable SQL filesystem. it would be nice to poke at DB tables directly with vi.Jun 13 21:50
DaemonMDVwhat will it make my system do that it can't do now?Jun 13 21:50
starcannonDaemonMDV yes there is, and no, I do not think it warrants an explanation ;)Jun 13 21:50
DaemonMDVIt's usualyl better to stay back one versionJun 13 21:51
DaemonMDVand jsut use point releasesJun 13 21:51
DaemonMDVotherwise you can end up with all kinds of problemsJun 13 21:51
_Hicham_bad attitudeJun 13 21:51
DaemonMDVlike the network problems with 2.6.29Jun 13 21:51
DaemonMDVthat were fixed in 13 21:51
DaemonMDVif it's not going to do anything for me except bring in a lot of bugs that I don't have nowJun 13 21:52
DaemonMDVwhy do it?Jun 13 21:52
starcannonDaemonMDV your supposed to offer your hard earned data up to the kernel gods, it will allow you to ascend to quantum computing in your next lifeJun 13 21:52
DaemonMDV 13 21:53
DaemonMDVhmmmmJun 13 21:53
mib_5506kaYeah, but I want to see the copmuters in this life, not the next one.Jun 13 21:53
starcannonDaemonMDV on a more serious note, I guess the only reason to do it is in order to help test it, not useful or overly so for a mission critical machine I should not think thoughJun 13 21:53
DaemonMDV 13 21:53
DaemonMDVOpera to 'reinvent the web' in four daysJun 13 21:54
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mib_5506kaIs Al Gore working for Opera?Jun 13 21:54
mib_5506kaI thought that he was busy keeping uis warm?Jun 13 21:54
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starcannondoh closed wrong browser windowJun 13 21:55
_Mutex_All you huge brains out there DARPA is looking for YOU,,,  (but its not like they invented the internet or anything !! )Jun 13 21:55
_Mutex_he found it to inconvientJun 13 21:56
_Mutex_the truth that isJun 13 21:56
starcannonMy brain may be advanced enough to use as a speed bump in the DARPA parking lot, other than that I doubt they would consider me for much elseJun 13 21:56
_Mutex_LOLJun 13 21:56
mib_5506kaThe Internet was designed to survive a nuclear attack, but does it suvive spam, popups and commercials?Jun 13 21:59
mib_5506ka... especially Javascript.Jun 13 21:59
neighborleemib_5506ka, I dont think the subject of global warming is all that funny as it affects many people  ;) < unless you were just being facetious>Jun 13 22:01
mib_5506kaI like Global Warming. I am no fun of winter and I get more berries form my garden when the sumemr is longer.Jun 13 22:02
mib_5506kafan of winter...Jun 13 22:02
_Mutex_hopefully you dont live too close to the sea then !!Jun 13 22:03
mib_5506kaI like boating. Ayway the Anthropogenic Global Warming is a sad hoax anyway. See for instance 13 22:04
_Mutex_and if you really really like global warning, go to mars, and see whats its done to that planet :) (or :()Jun 13 22:04
starcannonI agree _Mutex_; indeed, regardless of ones view of its biggest messenger, the ice caps continue to melt.Jun 13 22:04
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mib_5506kaIce caps: 13 22:05
_Mutex_explain that to the nice people of Tuvalu that goes 50 inches under the OCEAN on high tides !!Jun 13 22:06
starcannonI'm not too worried though, either I'll be eaten by a Chupacabra, 2012 will arrive , or the Rapture will happen. I've made sure to make sacrifices to all the correct deities so I should be drinking beer with his noodly appendage no matter what happensJun 13 22:08
_Mutex_LOLJun 13 22:08
_Mutex_you and ned flanders will be happy together :)Jun 13 22:09
starcannonNah, that toad don't drink beer *shakes fist in anger at Flanders* ohhh pork chopsJun 13 22:09
_Mutex_damn you sexy flanderJun 13 22:10
DaemonMDVLa Chupacabra will devour you allJun 13 22:10
DaemonMDV:PJun 13 22:10
DaemonMDVrepent!Jun 13 22:10
starcannon*sings* run for the hills, run for your liiii-iii-iiiifeJun 13 22:10
starcannonor is it "run to the hills" bah, time to dig through my 80's metal and find outJun 13 22:11
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mib_5506kaThere may be bad spirits on the hills.Jun 13 22:11
starcannonNot as bad as Chupacabra, why do you think they ran to the hills to begin with?Jun 13 22:12
mib_5506kaWho is this frighteing Chupacabra?Jun 13 22:13
schestowitzushimitsudoki has begun a project: 13 22:13
schestowitzGPLv3 :-)Jun 13 22:13
schestowitzSo he'll spent time developingJun 13 22:13
mib_5506kaSounds like Santa Muerte.Jun 13 22:13
_Mutex_I just really like the word "cryptozoological"Jun 13 22:13
starcannon_Mutex_ haha okiesJun 13 22:13
DaemonMDVhmmm, Beagle is still more resource efficient than Vista SearchJun 13 22:13
starcannonMono lover ;)Jun 13 22:14
DaemonMDVit takes 56 megsJun 13 22:14
DaemonMDVVista Search takes about 90-100Jun 13 22:14
starcannonI haven't dealt with Vista too much.Jun 13 22:15
mib_5506ka"cryptozoological"? Does that animal use AES and RSA? I guess that Homo Sapiens is the only "cryptozoologial" thing.Jun 13 22:15
DaemonMDVhmmm, Mandriva has Preload by defaultJun 13 22:15
DaemonMDVinterestingJun 13 22:15
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] Microsoft Promotes SUSE Coupons (Software Patents) < >Jun 13 22:15
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] Criticism of Mono Now “Disappearing” < >Jun 13 22:15
starcannonI have a couple machines that shipped with it, never took time to boot it though, just stabbed a liveCD in, pressed ESC, booted from CDROM and scrubbed it.Jun 13 22:15
mib_5506kaIs it possible to chase Vista on to an externa disk and boot it from there?Jun 13 22:16
DaemonMDVschestowitz: Didn't I tell you Ubuntu is bad news?Jun 13 22:16
DaemonMDVthey censor everything they don't likeJun 13 22:16
_Mutex_Tuvulu is famous for one thing, (well 2 acutally), but  its domain extension is .tvJun 13 22:16
mib_5506kaTV is a vaste of time. :)Jun 13 22:17
starcannonI really like Ubuntu, its easy to setup and use, perhaps its time for GNUbuntu?Jun 13 22:17
DaemonMDVschestowitz: You think Banshee would run better in Java?Jun 13 22:17
DaemonMDVhmmmmJun 13 22:17
mib_5506kaOuff I hate Java.Jun 13 22:18
mib_5506kaJava is like filling your box with snails.Jun 13 22:18
_Mutex_I like coffeeJun 13 22:18
starcannonI think Mono rocks, I just don't like its license, and I'm unwilling to use it because of that issue.Jun 13 22:18
_Mutex_you dont like the GPL !!Jun 13 22:18
mib_5506kaWhat do people use Mono for? I never tried, I get allergic reactions form the Microsoft smell.Jun 13 22:21
_Mutex_its a programming development platform, like javaJun 13 22:21
starcannonI'm looking at the page right now. It's using so many different licenses for various aspects, and then .NET having its own legalese issues, I just want it to be FOSS or not be bothered. I can always dual boot if I am required to run licensed software for some reason.Jun 13 22:21
mib_5506kaBut for running .NET things?Jun 13 22:21
_Mutex_and yes, just like Linux grew from UNIX which was proprietary,  Mono has its roots in proprietary too, both linux and Mono are under the SAME licenseJun 13 22:22
starcannonI avoid .NET like a plague.Jun 13 22:22
_Mutex_and yes, its for .net development framework, no more no less.Jun 13 22:22
DaemonMDVMono makes it easier to port .Net appsJun 13 22:22
DaemonMDVbut it's not directly compatibleJun 13 22:22
_Mutex_Being GPL it cannot be patent encumberedJun 13 22:22
mib_5506kaDual booot, hmm... have your trien KVN, XEN, Wmware?Jun 13 22:22
_Mutex_thats right it makes it easier to go from windows to linux, or from Linux to windows, or to cross develop.lJun 13 22:23
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DaemonMDVthe FSF have their own version of .NetJun 13 22:23
DaemonMDVcalled Portable.NetJun 13 22:23
_Mutex_it actually increases users freedoms,  and you dont need to use it if y ou dont want too, thats true freedomJun 13 22:23
DaemonMDV 13 22:24
maxstirnerno need for going back and forth soon.. can't see much of a future for MSJun 13 22:24
_Mutex_the FSF also has THE .net framework, its called Mono, under the FSF license of teh GPLJun 13 22:24
mib_5506kaHow compatible is it? Can you run Bull Gates on it?Jun 13 22:24
DaemonMDVPart of the DotGNU project, Portable.NET is a free software and open source software initiative aiming to build a portable toolchain and runtime for Common Language Infrastructure applications. The project focuses on compatibility with the ECMA-334 and ECMA-335 standards and support for .NET's base class libraries, XML, and Windows Forms. As of March 20, 2007, the latest release of Portable.NET wass 0.8.0. The project supports aJun 13 22:24
DaemonMDVdifferent CPU architectures and operating systems.Jun 13 22:24
DaemonMDV 13 22:24
DaemonMDVDotGNU is a part of the GNU Project that aims to provide a free software replacement for Microsoft's .NET Framework by Free Software Foundation. Other goals of the project are better support for non-Windows platforms and support for more processors.Jun 13 22:24
_Mutex_then there is no reason, why anyone cannot take the Mono GPLJun 13 22:25
mib_5506kaHey, have you heard about the combined WinAPI + Linux kernel project?Jun 13 22:25
mib_5506kasomething like Wine in the kernel.Jun 13 22:25
_Mutex_'code and make their own framework out of it, thats the power of the GPL right ?? im I rightJun 13 22:25
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DaemonMDVobviously the FSF has a big legal departmentJun 13 22:25
starcannonLinux uses the GPL, Mono uses that as well at MIT X11 and then its tied in with ECMA/ISO.Jun 13 22:25
DaemonMDVand they would never have done Portable.Net without the go ahead from their legal departmentJun 13 22:26
_Mutex_can you lick this ECMA thing you talk about with mono, because I dont see that anywhereJun 13 22:26
DaemonMDV 13 22:26
_Mutex_portable.Net will be trivial now, as you have Mono to base it onJun 13 22:26
DaemonMDVEcma International (Ecma) is an international, private (membership-based) non-profit standards organization for information and communication systems.[1] It acquired its name in 1994, when the European Computer Manufacturers Association (ECMA) changed its name to reflect the organization's international reach. As a consequence, the name is no longer considered an acronym and no longer uses full capitalization.Jun 13 22:26
maxstirnerecma isnt that the marketing company who did all that horrible MSOOXML advertisingJun 13 22:27
DaemonMDVJavascript is an ECMA standardJun 13 22:27
mib_5506kaYeah, big legal departments everwhere, ticks, lice, intestinal worms everywhere. I get tired of it.Jun 13 22:27
starcannon_Mutex_ down under the patents area concerning .NET, and ASPJun 13 22:27
DaemonMDVECMA-252Jun 13 22:27
_Mutex_so its a standards orginaztion not a license ok, does not mean anything thenJun 13 22:27
DaemonMDVyeah it doesJun 13 22:27
mib_5506kaMaybe Javascript can be used for something good, but mostly they use it to throw disgisting popusps in your face.Jun 13 22:28
DaemonMDVor else the W3C doesn't matter eitherJun 13 22:28
DaemonMDVand Microsoft's additions to IE are all OKJun 13 22:28
_Mutex_its a list of standards, not a licenseJun 13 22:28
DaemonMDV 13 22:28
DaemonMDVReasonable and Non Discriminatory Licensing (RAND) is a term for a type of licensing typically used during standardization processes. The normal case is that when joining the standardization body, companies agree that if they receive any patents on technologies which become essential to the standard then they agree to allow other groups attempting to implement the standard to use those patents and they agree that the charges forJun 13 22:28
DaemonMDVpatents shall be reasonable. RAND licenses allow a competitive market to develop between multiple companies making products which implement a standard.Jun 13 22:28
_Hicham_is DaemonFC patented?Jun 13 22:29
DaemonMDVthat's the part that theoretically covers MonoJun 13 22:29
_Mutex_thats sounds fair ,, but its still not a license, no where near itJun 13 22:29
starcannonAn interesting, and I'm sure meant to be comforting statement is: 13 22:29
starcannondoh wrong copy past sorryJun 13 22:30
_Mutex_so if they are tied to emca and as y ou say, then its a good thing because it ensure patents are not encumbered, vis a vis the GPL.Jun 13 22:30
mib_5506kaI have a patented coffee cup that can spill hot coffee on your crotch so you can get millions in damages from the café (not from me).Jun 13 22:30
starcannonThis is what I meant to paste, its taken from the link i accidentally pasted: With the new Novell/Microsoft agreement, will the patent policy change?Jun 13 22:30
starcannonMono is a community project, and as such, we will continue to implement the policy of not integrating knowingly infringing code into Mono.Jun 13 22:30
starcannonAnd we will continue to follow the steps outlined in the previous topic if code that potentially infringes is found: finding prior art, finding different implementation techniques, or if none of those are possible, removing the code from Mono.Jun 13 22:30
_Mutex_where is the connection to emca and mono, where are they both talked about in teh same context ?Jun 13 22:30
DaemonMDVMono implements the ECMA version of .NetJun 13 22:31
starcannon_Mutex_ on that link I posted for you, its down in the Patents areaJun 13 22:31
DaemonMDVMicrosot has their own bits that are non-standardJun 13 22:31
DaemonMDV*MicrosoftJun 13 22:31
_Mutex_ from this link ?Jun 13 22:31
starcannonI think when one dances with the Devil, one should be prepared to pay the Piper.Jun 13 22:31
starcannon_Mutex_ no from this link 13 22:32
_Mutex_IF mono implements the ECMA version, that would indicate that mono isnot patent encumbered,Jun 13 22:32
_Mutex_so if its ecma covered its free of patent issues yes ?Jun 13 22:33
starcannon_Mutex_ That is exactly what they are banking on; however, lawyers have ways of twisting things, and I'm sure there are fine lines everywhere and MS has made no bones about FOSS being a problem that they would like to squashJun 13 22:33
DaemonMDVBanshee requires the non-standard bitsJun 13 22:33
DaemonMDVlike Windows FormsJun 13 22:33
DaemonMDVregardless of what schestowitz saysJun 13 22:33
DaemonMDVand I can prove itJun 13 22:33
mib_5506kaHas anyone ever checked if MSFT icorporates GPLd software in it's system?Jun 13 22:33
DaemonMDV 13 22:34
_Mutex_if IF lawyers do have a way of twisting things, that is an issue with the GPL not with MONO, if the GPL is not strong enough then thats ITS problemJun 13 22:34
fewamib_5506ka, it does for its UNIX compat stackJun 13 22:34
DaemonMDVremoving Windows Forms will remove BansheeJun 13 22:34
fewaFSF-copyrighted tooJun 13 22:34
DaemonMDVand F-SpotJun 13 22:34
starcannonI think getting in bed with a mega-corp that has already made it known that it would like to see FOSS die is just a very very bad idea, one that should not even be considered, but I err to the side of caution most timesJun 13 22:34
DaemonMDV 13 22:35
starcannonMy asus eee's shipped with xandros, I scrubbed them off immediatlyJun 13 22:35
neighborleestarcannon, its called common senseJun 13 22:35
starcannonneighborlee agreedJun 13 22:35
neighborleebut when one is on the oposing side..common sense doesn't work so well ;)Jun 13 22:36
DaemonMDVso two of the most common Mono apps require proprietary, non-standard, and patent-encumbered bits of MonoJun 13 22:36
DaemonMDVWindows FormsJun 13 22:36
_Mutex_the problem with that argument is that by reject mono, you are rejecting teh GPL you are admitting that the GPL is not worth the paper its written on (or pixels).Jun 13 22:36
DaemonMDVto say they're GPL'd is just insaneJun 13 22:36
_Mutex_IS that what you want to do for FOSS ?Jun 13 22:36
_Mutex_weaken the very fabric of your existance !!! (just wanted to say that once in my life). :)Jun 13 22:37
starcannon_Mutex_ I am rejecting that it is truly GPL'd, I am not rejecting the GPL though. I can sell you a car, put a "Guarantee" on it in writing, and if I am not trustworthy and the car blows up, whats the Guarantee worth?Jun 13 22:38
DaemonMDVHuman sacrifice, dogs and cats living together... mass hysteria!Jun 13 22:38
DaemonMDV:PJun 13 22:38
_Mutex_So ifyou reject mono, you are rejecting FSF's GPL, so you might as well also reject the Linux Kernel!!Jun 13 22:38
DaemonMDVso Banshee requires Avalon/Windows Presentation FoundationJun 13 22:38
DaemonMDVand so does F-SpotJun 13 22:38
_Mutex_the written guarentee ensure you are liable to pay or refund, thats what a guarentee isJun 13 22:39
schestowitzDMOZ DEMIZE... 13 22:39
_Mutex_its your case what is the GPL worth then ?Jun 13 22:39
_Mutex_your saying nothing ?Jun 13 22:39
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starcannonI pick and choose who to trust, I do not trust MS, or Novell, or Xandros, or anyone else who would sign a deal with MS.Jun 13 22:40
neighborlee_Mutex_, why dont you ask novel..err wait I mean Microsoft..err I mean well get the both in conference ;)Jun 13 22:40
_Mutex_I remember not so long ago, if someone attacked the GPL to a FOSS group they would be flooded and flamed to death in no time, no days its a sport to kick the GPL to the gutterJun 13 22:41
DaemonMDVXandros is just crapJun 13 22:41
DaemonMDVthey actually have a "Click here to pay $50 to Microsoft for patent protection" buttonJun 13 22:41
DaemonMDVin their checkoutJun 13 22:41
neighborleeo_0Jun 13 22:41
_Mutex_with regards to the FSF's GPL, I would prefer to ask the FSF and RMS he after all wrote it, I assume he considers it of some value.Jun 13 22:41
DaemonMDV 13 22:42
_Mutex_even if the FOSS community is now DISSing GPL'd codeJun 13 22:42
DaemonMDVStallman added: "Mono will enable you to run your C# programs on the free GNU/Linux operating system using exclusively free software. With Mono, you will be able to use C# if you wish, without surrendering your freedom to study, share, change, and generally control all the software that you use."Jun 13 22:42
DaemonMDVheheJun 13 22:43
_Mutex_WELL SAID RMS !!!Jun 13 22:43
DaemonMDVI'm not making that upJun 13 22:43
DaemonMDVread the pageJun 13 22:43
schestowitzDaemonMDV: yes, banshee grabs winforms in fedoraJun 13 22:43
DaemonMDVRichard M. Stallman, founder of the GNU project and president of the Free Software Foundation, said: "With Mono and DotGNU, we hope to provide good alternatives to components of .NET, ones that will respect your freedom, and your privacy. You will be able to use the facilities of Mono and DotGNU either with, or without, the Internet, and using servers of your choice."Jun 13 22:43
DaemonMDV"We are taking the lead in providing an upgraded development platform that enables Unix and GNU/Linux developers to capitalize on the .NET framework. By having the Mono Project reuse the work from the GNU and GNOME project, we can greatly accelerate the development process," said Miguel de Icaza, co-founder and chief technical officer at Ximian.Jun 13 22:43
_Mutex_Gee Richard stallman is saying Mono will force you to surrender your freedom (in any way) with mono, interesting, can you like that for me so I can save it ?Jun 13 22:44
starcannonI don't see anyone dissing GPL'd code, I do see people skeptical whether it is truly GPL'd code though. Just because some one says something does not make it so. I see no reason to start trusting MS or those they are using to infiltrate with.Jun 13 22:44
starcannon 13 22:44
DaemonMDV 13 22:44
_Mutex_It is truly GPLd code because thats what its licenses under,Jun 13 22:44
DaemonMDVMono Project is a free implementation of the various ECMA and .NET framework technologies for Posix, MacOS X, and Windows. The project includes a compiler, a class library, and a CLI runtime engine.Jun 13 22:44
DaemonMDVLast updated 23 May, 2008Jun 13 22:44
neighborleestarcannon, indeedJun 13 22:44
maxstirnerneed GPL3 for patent protectionJun 13 22:44
_Mutex_its digital it either IS or it IS NOT, and it is.Jun 13 22:45
schestowitz<DaemonMDV> they actually have a "Click here to pay $50 to Microsoft for patent protection" buttonJun 13 22:45
schestowitzProof pleaseJun 13 22:45
_Mutex_In that case reject the Linux Kernel, (there may be patents undescovered in it after all).Jun 13 22:45
starcannonHeres the ACTUAL mono license page, no need to even argue, it very clearly has an MIT/X11 license as well, and I still do not believe they are using code that they can legally use the GPL on, I believe they are using MS technology, and I believe whether or not its their intention, we will all be burnt. 13 22:46
maxstirner 13 22:46
maxstirner"In effect, Microsoft has designed in boobytraps for us."Jun 13 22:46
_Mutex_they cant because its GPLd,Jun 13 22:46
_Mutex_read the licenseJun 13 22:47
starcannon_Mutex_ I am not required to throw the baby out with the bathwater, that is flawed logic, and I've been conversing with you long enough to know that you know that as well.Jun 13 22:47
_Mutex_no one is asking you to throw out anything, or to do anything different, or to do anything you dont want too, or that you dont feel right about, I agree,  IF you dont want to trust the GPL thats your choice.Jun 13 22:48
neighborleestarcannon, we arleady have verification about mono from free software foundation lawyer..what else do we need im not sure...other than common sense which is actively engaged,,,,for most of us :)<check your OS though to verify that>Jun 13 22:48
_Mutex_you are free to not use the GPL if you so wishJun 13 22:48
starcannon_Mutex_ I will say that I hope your right. Nothing would give me greater satisfaction than for me to turn out to be a paranoid idiot on this argument, if Mono is really and truly able to stand up as GPL code in a court of law, that would be HUGE. Mono is technologically magnificent, no doubt about it.Jun 13 22:48
_Mutex_Well I am right, and Mono is GPLd, we allknow that,Jun 13 22:49
neighborleelolJun 13 22:49
starcannon_Mutex_ we don't all know that, indeed there are a great number of use who question it.Jun 13 22:49
_Mutex_stallman says its cool, and im sure he knows the GPL a bit better than me (probably)Jun 13 22:49
_Mutex_seeing he wrote it and allJun 13 22:49
_Mutex_I just read itJun 13 22:49
DaemonMDVschestowitz: Add Xandros to your cartJun 13 22:49
DaemonMDVclick checkoutJun 13 22:49
DaemonMDVproofJun 13 22:49
neighborlee_Mutex_, people..and opinions change.Jun 13 22:49
_Hicham_DaemonMDV : have u tried openSUSE?Jun 13 22:50
_Mutex_Yes, and a proprietary Unix, can become a GPLd linux too,Jun 13 22:50
_Mutex_things can change for the better I agreeJun 13 22:50
DaemonMDVschestowitzJun 13 22:50
DaemonMDV 13 22:50
DaemonMDV 13 22:50
DaemonMDV$99 without Microsoft Patent AssuranceJun 13 22:51
DaemonMDV$149.99 withJun 13 22:51
neighborlee_Mutex_, its not going to work..give up..divide and of freee and brave is alive and well, whether you think so or notJun 13 22:51
DaemonMDV 13 22:51
starcannon_Mutex_ ultimately each person can voice their opinion. I know that the siren call of Mono will be to great to resist, promises of all kinds of MS compatibility is to great for most people to pass on, we'll all know for sure when/if a lawsuit happens.Jun 13 22:51
DaemonMDVIntellectual Property AssuranceJun 13 22:51
DaemonMDVNow you have the option to acquire Xandros Desktop offerings together with Microsoft patent assurance. This assurance enables you to use Xandros Desktop software with confidence. This program is available for $50. Learn more by reading Microsoft's covenant.Jun 13 22:51
DaemonMDV:)Jun 13 22:51
schestowitzShillnalysts got annoyed at me...Jun 13 22:52
DaemonMDV 13 22:52
schestowitzUBing v GoogleJun 13 22:52
DaemonMDVMicrosoft, on behalf of itself and its Subsidiaries, hereby covenants not to sue a Customer of Xandros for infringement under Microsoft’s Covered Patents on account of such Customer’s use of specific copies of Covered Products as distributed by Xandros during the Term. For the avoidance of doubt, bug fixes and minor updates to a specific copy is considered the same copy and remains covered by the above covenant provided suchJun 13 22:52
DaemonMDVand minor updates do not add substantial new functionality; an upgrade (or a new version) of a specific copy is treated as two different copies.Jun 13 22:52
_Mutex_divide and conquer ? im not the one who is degrading the GPL, and dividing one distro against another, its not MS against FOSS its FOSS attacking FOSS and teh GPL, its quite odd.Jun 13 22:52
_Mutex_anddisturbingJun 13 22:52
neighborleeschestowitz, good..give them something to talk about :))Jun 13 22:52
schestowitzUser Centric was neither requested by, paid by, or contacted by Microsoft for the eye tracking research of bing v google.  The research was done independently to feature User Centric’s eye tracking services.  Full stop.  And if you had access to our corporate financial records -- which you don’t -- you would discovered that Microsoft is not a major customer by any means of analysis. Jun 13 22:52
schestowitz Jun 13 22:52
schestowitzUser Centric demonstrates its service capabilities by testing the customer experiences with high-profile companies and then publishes the results: see our papers on Google Health v Microsoft HealthVault and the iPhone, for example.Jun 13 22:52
schestowitz Jun 13 22:52
schestowitzRobert M. Schumacher, Ph.D.Jun 13 22:52
schestowitzManaging DirectorJun 13 22:52
schestowitzUser Centric, Inc.Jun 13 22:52
neighborlee_Mutex_, just exactly who are you anywayJun 13 22:52
DaemonMDV_Hicham_: OpenSuse is way bloatedJun 13 22:52
schestowitzHaha.Jun 13 22:52
DaemonMDVthat's the main reason I won't use itJun 13 22:52
schestowitzSo no...Jun 13 22:52
starcannon_Mutex_ name ONE SINGLE person in here who has degraded the GPL, indeed sir, give me a quote of such.Jun 13 22:52
schestowitzMicrosoft didn't pay themJun 13 22:52
schestowitzThey were a non-paying customerJun 13 22:52
schestowitzThey were just there 'for good measure'Jun 13 22:53
schestowitzMatter of fact is, money passed handsJun 13 22:53
DaemonMDVThe OpenSuse modifications to GNOME make it confusing and unwieldyJun 13 22:53
DaemonMDVand Yast2 is SLOWJun 13 22:53
_Hicham_what modifications?Jun 13 22:53
DaemonMDVthey have a "Start Menu"Jun 13 22:53
_Hicham_start menu?Jun 13 22:53
DaemonMDVand a "Applications Menu" that's a huge windowJun 13 22:54
_Mutex_who am i ?? im the balanced voice of reason :)Jun 13 22:54
DaemonMDVwith like every app on the system in itJun 13 22:54
_Mutex_the one "keeping it real" LOLJun 13 22:54
DaemonMDVit disappears when you select oneJun 13 22:54
_Mutex_unofficial BN troll  (in training ).Jun 13 22:54
DaemonMDVSuse just reeks of piss poor user interface designJun 13 22:54
_Hicham_does it have KMS?Jun 13 22:54
DaemonMDVit's very unintuitiveJun 13 22:55
DaemonMDVnoJun 13 22:55
DaemonMDVit's still using Linux 2.6.27Jun 13 22:55
_Hicham_wowJun 13 22:55
_Hicham_way oldJun 13 22:55
starcannonblush so am IJun 13 22:55
_Mutex_ who has degraded the GPL, anyone who degraded any GPLd code is who,,Jun 13 22:55
starcannon27-14 to be exactJun 13 22:55
DaemonMDVOpenSuse just really isn't all that great even if you don't care about patents or whatnot at allJun 13 22:55
DaemonMDVit's bloated, stale, and the user itnerface sucksJun 13 22:56
_Hicham_it was the first to support delta rpms i thinkJun 13 22:56
DaemonMDVyeahJun 13 22:56
DaemonMDVnot really all that helpfulJun 13 22:56
neighborlee_Mutex_, Jo sheilds wannabe ?Jun 13 22:56
_Hicham_agreeJun 13 22:56
starcannonDaemonMDV is it possible to have a one size fits all OS without it being slightly stale, and a bit bloated though?Jun 13 22:56
DaemonMDVit takes so long for the system to apply the patches, you might as well just download the whole packageJun 13 22:57
_Mutex_who's jo sheilds ??Jun 13 22:57
DaemonMDVstarcannon: They made a number of decisions that I'd guess are just wrong for any usage caseJun 13 22:57
neighborlee:)Jun 13 22:57
_Hicham_and it is not up-to-dateJun 13 22:57
_Hicham_I hate old distrosJun 13 22:58
starcannonDaemonMDV all patent/license issues aside, it seems all the major desktop distro's get a bit stale and bloated no?Jun 13 22:58
DaemonMDVstarcannon, noJun 13 22:58
_Mutex_or why do I can, I was just re-reading RMS quote on it, so I might be a Stallman wannabeJun 13 22:58
starcannonI'm using the wrong ones thenJun 13 22:58
DaemonMDVif you look at Ubuntu, Fedora, and Mandriva, they're usually not more than a few months behind upstreamJun 13 22:58
DaemonMDVif you go with Suse, you can be significantly further behind and get heavily patched versions of everythingJun 13 22:58
starcannonI'm on Ubuntu 8.10 right now with all the patches and $ uname -rJun 13 22:59
starcannon2.6.27-14-genericJun 13 22:59
DaemonMDVFedora is 99% upstreamJun 13 22:59
DaemonMDVthey have some of their own patches, but they do good work and most of it becomes upstreamJun 13 22:59
DaemonMDVso it's not shockingly differentJun 13 22:59
starcannonAnd as much as I do enjoy Ubuntu, I can not say its not a wee bloated.Jun 13 22:59
_Hicham_ubuntu patches are the most problematicJun 13 23:00
_Hicham_they cause more damage than benefitJun 13 23:00
DaemonMDVto a certain extent, operating systems are not big because they're full of useless crap that nobody wantsJun 13 23:00
DaemonMDVthey're big because your needs are bigJun 13 23:00
DaemonMDV:)Jun 13 23:00
_Mutex_Richard M. Stallman, founder of the GNU project and president of the Free Software Foundation, said: "With Mono and DotGNU, we hope to provide good alternatives to components of .NET, ones that will respect your freedom, and your privacy. You will be able to use the facilities of Mono and DotGNU either with, or without, the Internet, and using servers of your choice."Jun 13 23:00
starcannonI just assumed that it was the nature of the beastJun 13 23:00
*DaemonMDV stole that from Jamie Zawinski talking about MozillaJun 13 23:00
_Mutex_Even stallmans blessings is not enough ,,, hmmm problem ?Jun 13 23:01
DaemonMDVif you want to suffer and decide what you need piece by piece ,you can use Arch or Gentoo or somethingJun 13 23:01
_Hicham_GnewSense contains MonoJun 13 23:01
DaemonMDVbut most users would prefer something that just installs a default setupJun 13 23:01
_Mutex_where he say, "if YOU can compile mozilla, ANYONE can" (nice complement LOL) but good docoJun 13 23:02
starcannon_Mutex_ I don't personally consult Stallman for anything, and even if I did, I do not assume that any man is infallible.Jun 13 23:02
_Hicham_mozilla is a beast in compilationJun 13 23:02
_Hicham_I will never compile mozilla againJun 13 23:02
neighborleestarcannon, bingoJun 13 23:02
_Mutex_anyone but stallman that is, he's the FOSS god I thought the spiritual leader of the movement,Jun 13 23:03
_Mutex_that was a Jamie zawinski quote from that doco.Jun 13 23:03
schestowitzFSDaily is under troll attack: 13 23:03
starcannon_Mutex_ he is brilliant, and I am sure engaging to talk to, but he is not on my alterJun 13 23:03
schestowitzMass-buryingJun 13 23:03
neighborleeschestowitz, hehe im not surprised ;0-0Jun 13 23:03
schestowitzIt's the linxx.xx trollsJun 13 23:03
_Mutex_hes on some thought, im sure he's very smart, (he's SAT say so) but i feel he could of achieved alot more with his brain than being an activist.Jun 13 23:04
_Mutex_and Jamie Zawinski runs a night club nowJun 13 23:05
starcannon_Mutex_ thats the beauty of free-will, one can choose how to spend ones life; some asshats even choose to be members of linsux.orgJun 13 23:05
DaemonMDVschestowitz: I told you it brings winformsJun 13 23:06
DaemonMDVyou called bullshit on meJun 13 23:06
_Mutex_yes, thats true, but I dont think there will be many big brains on linsux, (cos im not there, or you :))Jun 13 23:06
_Mutex_will NOT be many big brains (sorry)Jun 13 23:06
_Mutex_unfortunate typ0Jun 13 23:06
starcannonlol my DARPA speedbump filled in the appropriate information :)Jun 13 23:07
_Mutex_LOL yes,,, I often feel exactly the same, just a speed bump in life,Jun 13 23:07
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starcannonWell, it was invigorating, but I'm off to play a bit of Eve Online no :) see ya all laterJun 13 23:17
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schestowitzDaemonMDV: seen the post about benshee?Jun 13 23:20
DaemonMDVMe on an MS MVP's website where he blogs about fake antivirus that turns off real antivirusJun 13 23:20
DaemonMDV"That’s actually pretty damned funny that even with Windows Defender, an antivirus program, a firewall, and whatever else you may be using, Windows is so inherently insecure that a virus can walk right in, set up shop, and switch all of that stuff off.Jun 13 23:20
DaemonMDVWhat are you paying for security software for?Jun 13 23:20
DaemonMDVThis is like hiring 6 heavily armed bodyguards who fail to stop a guy running towards you screaming “I’m going to blow you up” at the top of his lungs.Jun 13 23:20
schestowitzIt's complicated: 13 23:20
DaemonMDVyeah, saw itJun 13 23:20
schestowitzI'll write about Xandros tomorrowJun 13 23:21
schestowitzGood find, just try to keep the MS marketing you do here downJun 13 23:21
schestowitzIt serves no purposeJun 13 23:21
DaemonMDVschestowitz: The Xandros thing has been going on for a while nowJun 13 23:21
_Hicham_Daemon{%dist}Jun 13 23:21
schestowitzYesJun 13 23:21
DaemonMDV$50 to get protection from MSJun 13 23:21
schestowitzBut the cost I didn't know aboutJun 13 23:21
_Hicham_that should be ur nickJun 13 23:21
_Hicham_so that u can be polymorphicJun 13 23:22
DaemonMDVthe way they have it sounding "We're selling you something Microsoft owns, and if you don't buy their permission to use it, we've got your name"Jun 13 23:22
_Mutex_and yes windows has the same security leval rating as SOME versions of Linux, (not all linux is at that lever, many are below).Jun 13 23:24
_Mutex_and yet*Jun 13 23:24
DaemonMDVLinspire was the only one I've seen run as root by defaultJun 13 23:24
DaemonMDVXandros has always tried to sell itself as a Windows XP Professional cloneJun 13 23:25
DaemonMDVright down to the color motifJun 13 23:25
DaemonMDVolder version with Windows Whistler watercolor themeJun 13 23:28
DaemonMDV 13 23:28
DaemonMDVXandros 4Jun 13 23:28
DaemonMDV 13 23:29
DaemonMDV4.1Jun 13 23:29
DaemonMDV 13 23:29
DaemonMDVXP knockoffJun 13 23:29
DaemonMDVthey even have Caldera Linux's old file managerJun 13 23:30
DaemonMDVCaldera=SCOJun 13 23:30
schestowitzPardus does this tooJun 13 23:36
schestowitz "I thought I’d never have anything to say about Mono, Novell, etc., but some blog posts reminded me of an old story. Thankfully, I have a talented minion:" :-)Jun 13 23:37
maxstirnercant see the minionJun 13 23:38
schestowitzIt's a Debian flamefestJun 13 23:42
schestowitzHe's defending the Mono criticsJun 13 23:42
maxstirnerniceJun 13 23:42
maxstirneri jsut cant see any minions after the colonJun 13 23:42
schestowitzExpect to hear a lot about it in coming daysTJun 13 23:42
schestowitzThere might be a poll.Jun 13 23:42
maxstirnershould be fineJun 13 23:42
maxstirnerfunJun 13 23:42
maxstirner;)Jun 13 23:42
schestowitzBothJun 13 23:42
maxstirnercant really see the debians having itJun 13 23:42
maxstirnerdidnt they abolish the ffox logo?Jun 13 23:43
maxstirnerwith that degree of puritan attitude..Jun 13 23:43
schestowitzYes, it had a purposeJun 13 23:44
maxstirneri am not saying it didn'tJun 13 23:44
schestowitzThey should make MonkeyWeaselJun 13 23:45
schestowitzModify MonoJun 13 23:45
schestowitzTo fragment .NETJun 13 23:45
schestowitzAnd ruin it that wayJun 13 23:45
maxstirneri think its fine having winelike programmesJun 13 23:45
maxstirnerjust dont default themJun 13 23:46
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_Mutex_just rewrite it so its under the GPL, (oh wait) well just re-write it anyway, linus did it with UNIX problem solvedJun 13 23:49
schestowitz_Mutex_: enough with the GPL scoldingJun 13 23:50
neighborleeits all he hasJun 13 23:50
schestowitzTry #killkillkillgplJun 13 23:51
_Mutex_im for the GPL, its not me trying to defeat itJun 13 23:51
schestowitzMaybe you'll find some Softies in there,even stevebJun 13 23:51
schestowitzGPL is a scientific philosophyJun 13 23:51
schestowitzShare and share alikeJun 13 23:51
_Mutex_its actually a licenseJun 13 23:52
schestowitzIt applies to other areasJun 13 23:52
schestowitzAnd "open source" relates to it, but is defined differentlyJun 13 23:52
schestowitz_Mutex_: it's an artistic licenceJun 13 23:52
schestowitzReversing common ones. with copyleftJun 13 23:52
schestowitzAnd starting numbers at 0Jun 13 23:52
_Mutex_mabey but an artistic license is still a licenseJun 13 23:52
schestowitzSome of it is rebellious in the same that it antagonises bad conventionsJun 13 23:52
schestowitzLicence is an agreementJun 13 23:53
schestowitzLike shaking handsJun 13 23:53
schestowitzOr saying "I bet on my momma's life"Jun 13 23:53
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schestowitzBut juridical systems honour certain bits of paperJun 13 23:53
_Mutex_a legally binding hardshake, more like a signitureJun 13 23:53
schestowitzAll stupid bureaucracyJun 13 23:53
_Mutex_or a contract,Jun 13 23:53
schestowitzWhat maxstirner called meta-industryJun 13 23:53
_Mutex_yes, and thats the world we life in, paperwork and bureaucracyJun 13 23:54
_Mutex_otherwise, everything would be public domain, and there would be NO GPL.Jun 13 23:54
schestowitzNo.Jun 13 23:55
schestowitzI'd talk about it tomorrow if you likeJun 13 23:55
_Mutex_if there was no bureaucracy yesJun 13 23:55
schestowitzLet me just finish the opensuse postsJun 13 23:55
_Mutex_no bureaucracy mean no one to enforce the law, or licenses, or contractrs and so on. thats that "the system" is.Jun 13 23:56
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