IRC: #boycottnovell @ FreeNode: June 16th, 2009

Daemonbuntulooks like the auto-mode will just cause Ubuntu to fail to mount itJun 16 00:00
_Hicham_Daemonbuntu returns to his old loveJun 16 00:00
schestowitzThistleWeb: do you reckon they'll go Rambo on Iran next?Jun 16 00:00
Daemonbuntubut if you keep tryingJun 16 00:00
schestowitzYou know, to 'move the economy'?Jun 16 00:00
Daemonbuntuit will either eventually mount as an MTP or PTP deviceJun 16 00:00
ThistleWebwhen you look at the stupidity of some people around the world, you have to wonder if it's proof that someone somewhere pissed in the gene poolJun 16 00:00
Daemonbuntuthe problem is that when in one mode, you can't see files you wrote in the other modeJun 16 00:00
schestowitzGiven some pretext like mass destruction of weaspons? Jun 16 00:00
balzacI'd say "you know, it's not your fault. there was lots of radiation fallout which landed on kansas. we accept you as a bunch of mutants."Jun 16 00:00
Daemonbuntuand you have no way of telling which one Linux will pickJun 16 00:00
balzacjkJun 16 00:00
balzacObama's not going off on IraqnJun 16 00:01
schestowitzThistleWeb: issue is, it's beatenJun 16 00:01
balzacIranJun 16 00:01
schestowitzLaws of nature don't apply anymoreJun 16 00:01
schestowitzSmart people use contraceptionJun 16 00:01
_Hicham_balzac : he just can'tJun 16 00:01
ThistleWebschestowitz: I doubt it, despite the saber rattling, despite the wet dreams of the hawks, the ecconomy can't take a third warJun 16 00:01
schestowitzMinds are more complex in generalJun 16 00:01
_Hicham_no one can go off on IranJun 16 00:01
balzacRoy, Obama even warned Bejamin Netinyahu not to attack Iran. It wasn't because he was hoping to do it first.Jun 16 00:01
schestowitzFilms, music, etc.Jun 16 00:01
_Hicham_Benjamin Netinyahu can't attack Iran eitherJun 16 00:02
schestowitzNetinyahu is ma criminalJun 16 00:02
_Hicham_he is a big cowardJun 16 00:02
ThistleWebattacking a third muslim country would be a dream propaganda present to the headcases in groups like Al QuedaJun 16 00:02
schestowitzIt's a shame that such people are even electedJun 16 00:02
_Hicham_he attacks civil peopleJun 16 00:02
schestowitzHe wasn't even electedJun 16 00:02
schestowitzJust shows you what a farce the Israeli election is.Jun 16 00:02
schestowitzLike some third-world countryJun 16 00:02
ThistleWeb1st to root out those behind 911, 2nd based on liesJun 16 00:03
_Hicham_what coutry will they attack after Iran?Jun 16 00:03
schestowitzReplacing the elected person with some criminal (past with bribes and stuff)Jun 16 00:03
balzacschestowitz: I heard Livni was pretty hardcore herselfJun 16 00:03
schestowitzI don't knowJun 16 00:03
schestowitzI only saw a photo of her like 2 months agoJun 16 00:04
balzacwould you shtup her?Jun 16 00:04
balzacdid I spell that correctly?Jun 16 00:04
schestowitz?Jun 16 00:05
schestowitzI don't remember what she looks likeJun 16 00:05
balzacit's yiddish, i thinkJun 16 00:05
ThistleWebI'd rather aim for peace than war, looking at who will attack who is saying there's no point in talking to find peaceJun 16 00:05
schestowitzIt would be nice if Hillary was electedJun 16 00:05
schestowitzAnother blunder comingJun 16 00:05
balzacthat's always the first question on my mind regarding female politiciansJun 16 00:05
schestowitzYou'd catch her in the oval room seeking revengeJun 16 00:05
ThistleWebpeace works better for everyone except those in the war industry who profit from killing and destructionJun 16 00:05
balzacukraine has an attractive lady...Jun 16 00:05
balzacin officeJun 16 00:06
_Hicham_who is this lady balzac ? a stripper?Jun 16 00:06
schestowitzWomen aare more pacifistsJun 16 00:06
schestowitzIt's better to let some leadJun 16 00:06
balzaci agreeJun 16 00:06
schestowitzLess testestoroneJun 16 00:06
ThistleWebschestowitz: yepJun 16 00:06
balzacwell, i don't necessarily agree thereJun 16 00:06
schestowitzIceland has just voted to elect a lesbian womanJun 16 00:06
schestowitzShe runs the countryJun 16 00:06
balzacmost other men's testosterone is bad, but mine is pure goldJun 16 00:07
ThistleWebalthough, for women to get into the top jobs, they often have to adopt male charactiaristicsJun 16 00:07
_Hicham_Iceland with a lesbian woman?Jun 16 00:07
schestowitzIt's not thatJun 16 00:07
_Hicham_normalJun 16 00:07
_Hicham_no one can get aroused in thereJun 16 00:07
schestowitzWell, women are maybe emotional Jun 16 00:07
ThistleWebhence Thatcher had more balls than her entire male cabinetJun 16 00:07
schestowitzOr emeptionally-feeble if that's something that can be confirmedJun 16 00:07
_Hicham_Thatcher is a maleJun 16 00:08
balzacif you turn your aggression towards the most appropriate target, magically testosterone becomes good instead of evilJun 16 00:08
schestowitzLike, in a business, they would not always work 15 hours a day to save the businessJun 16 00:08
_Hicham_probably she gotta a secret dickJun 16 00:08
schestowitzThey have families and other prioritiesJun 16 00:08
schestowitzBut they don't think with their prickJun 16 00:08
schestowitzAnd that's goodJun 16 00:08
schestowitzMen are perhaps more competitiveJun 16 00:08
schestowitzAnd it's not a good thing for diplomacyJun 16 00:08
schestowitzmaybe competition, commerceJun 16 00:08
schestowitzFight of the minds.Jun 16 00:08
schestowitzNot the shellsJun 16 00:08
balzacwell it can beJun 16 00:08
ThistleWebso much of politics is wasted on useless ego tripsJun 16 00:09
balzacyou just have to crush your rivalsJun 16 00:09
ThistleWebhaving to bow down, say things the other person finds flatteringJun 16 00:09
balzachow are ego trips useless?Jun 16 00:09
schestowitzThink about a lady president from Tehran speaking to HillaryJun 16 00:09
_Hicham_women are more efficient in PoliticsJun 16 00:09
balzacwhat about Freud and Jung?Jun 16 00:09
ThistleWebthey inflate the issue to a personal levelJun 16 00:09
_Hicham_they can achieve things easilyJun 16 00:09
balzachillary has too much testosterone, apparentlyJun 16 00:09
schestowitzMore foreseeable than errrr.... Saddam and RunsfeldJun 16 00:10
schestowitzOh wait..Jun 16 00:10
schestowitz*RumJun 16 00:10
balzacwe need more feminine women in politicsJun 16 00:10
_Hicham_balzac : yes, strippers in the white houseJun 16 00:10
schestowitzbalzac: yes, Hillary is a dude at heartJun 16 00:10
balzaconce they're angry and bitter towards men, they may actually be worse than menJun 16 00:10
ThistleWebfor me, the key is more balance, all women or all men is a bad ideaJun 16 00:10
schestowitzMaybe they feed em stuff in the SanateJun 16 00:11
balzacyeah, 50% women would be goodJun 16 00:11
schestowitz*SenateJun 16 00:11
ThistleWebwe need more of a blend which represents the society that elected itJun 16 00:11
schestowitzAnimal farm...Jun 16 00:11
schestowitzLet the pigs reignJun 16 00:11
balzacthrow the dumbest male politicians out the windows and down the steps of the capitolJun 16 00:11
ThistleWebthey tried that at the G20Jun 16 00:11
balzacjohn boenherJun 16 00:11
ThistleWebit got them onto the front pages with accusations of brutalityJun 16 00:12
balzaclots of the republicans - toss em right out the windowJun 16 00:12
balzacI'd like to run a company staffed entirely by womenJun 16 00:13
ThistleWebI wonder how much the age thing plays in politicsJun 16 00:14
balzacNYSE listedJun 16 00:14
balzacdrug use: mandatoryJun 16 00:14
ThistleWebmost politicians are passed regular retirement ageJun 16 00:14
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balzacmini-skirts: mandatoryJun 16 00:14
ThistleWebas douglas adams says, anything which was in the world already when you're under 16 is new and excitingJun 16 00:14
balzacI'd be like chairman maoJun 16 00:15
balzacjkJun 16 00:15
ThistleWebandything which comes into the world when you're 16-35 you can make a career ofJun 16 00:15
ThistleWebanything new when you're over 35 is against the natural order of thingsJun 16 00:15
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balzacmore old people in positions of power need to be checked for senilityJun 16 00:16
ThistleWebhow many politicians are under 35?Jun 16 00:16
balzacnot nearly enoughJun 16 00:16
ThistleWebeverything in the modern world is scary to themJun 16 00:16
balzacold people are way  over-representedJun 16 00:16
balzaci respect my elders, but there are too many deranged, senile politicians crapping on the world.Jun 16 00:17
balzacfar too many.Jun 16 00:17
ThistleWebthey are indoctintated into a world where loyalty, ability to deceive and adherence to the old ways is the path to career advancementJun 16 00:17
ThistleWebwhen they start to think about reform, they get a visitJun 16 00:18
ThistleWebif they continue their ways of erring, they can kiss any promotion goodbyeJun 16 00:18
balzacwell, if young people wouldn't have such a terrible aversion to traditions, maybe there'd be more of us in the 'establishment'.Jun 16 00:18
balzaci guess i'm still relatively young: 33Jun 16 00:19
ThistleWebit is bizarre that the sole criteria for running a department is your loyalty to the bossJun 16 00:19
ThistleWebnot whether or not you can do the jobJun 16 00:19
ThistleWebwhere the boss has all his loyal people in key positions, and when scandal has finally taken him down, a new boss is chosen who comes in and everyone loyal to the old boss is replacedJun 16 00:20
ThistleWebsounds a lot like the old soveit system huh>Jun 16 00:20
ThistleWebevery minister on the takeJun 16 00:21
schestowitzUbuntu Sucks Like a Shopvac and Other Linux Rants < http://www.reallylinux.com/docs/ubuntusuck.shtml >Jun 16 00:21
ThistleWeball doing favours for wealthy business peopleJun 16 00:21
ThistleWebisn't a vac supposed to suck?Jun 16 00:21
ThistleWebif I bought one and it didn't I'd take it backJun 16 00:22
balzacWhat are they comparing it to? Linux is hard to install, in comparison to installing a new dish towel hook with sticky back?Jun 16 00:22
schestowitzWikipedia begins content licence migration < http://www.h-online.com/open/Wikipedia-begins-content-licence-migration--/news/113527 > Bye, GNU?Jun 16 00:23
schestowitz:-)Jun 16 00:23
schestowitz:0(Jun 16 00:23
schestowitzUnleash the gnu-police on em, with phasers set on "freedom" ;-)Jun 16 00:24
Balrogschestowitz: ...?!?! What's wrong with CC license?Jun 16 00:24
schestowitzNothingJun 16 00:24
schestowitzI'm sort of kiddingJun 16 00:24
balzacGNU released, specifically modifying the GNU FDL to be compatible so content could be re-licensed under CCJun 16 00:24
schestowitzthe GNU brandJun 16 00:25
ThistleWebwikipedia have been planning the licence move for ages, they had to make sure they had it well enough advertised for past contributers to knowJun 16 00:25
balzacThe GNU brand is stronger than everJun 16 00:25
schestowitzPut a GNU label on a phone and suddenly it's a hit :-)Jun 16 00:25
schestowitzLike all those gnu faboisJun 16 00:25
balzacThe hoary head of the GNU is rising like the sun in the east!Jun 16 00:25
schestowitzBuying gadgets just because it has some logoJun 16 00:25
schestowitz[An animal, not a fruit]Jun 16 00:25
ThistleWebApple is a fine exampleJun 16 00:26
ThistleWebstick an Apple logo on anything and it will sellJun 16 00:26
schestowitzMinceR posted this one here: http://aoi.morecp.net/img/0JDMYOrlARs5A0ZL.gifJun 16 00:26
BalrogThistleWeb: I don't think so ... there have been Apple products that didn't sellJun 16 00:26
schestowitz[animated] nsfw]Jun 16 00:26
ThistleWebBalrog: not so much nowJun 16 00:26
ThistleWebmaybe ages agoJun 16 00:26
ThistleWebthey pretty much have a midas touch right nowJun 16 00:27
ThistleWebslick PRJun 16 00:27
Balrogno, it's more like they're products don't suck like the vast majority of competing products doJun 16 00:27
balzachipsters love appleJun 16 00:27
BalrogPR alone won't get [a company] anywhereJun 16 00:27
balzachackers are not so easily excited by shiny plasticJun 16 00:28
Balrogthen why do they hack the iPhone?Jun 16 00:28
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Balrogwhy do several members of the wii hacking group use Apple products?Jun 16 00:28
balzacfor  the hipster poontangJun 16 00:28
BalrogI doubt itJun 16 00:28
balzachipster poontangJun 16 00:29
Balrogthen what /should/ they use? Windows?Jun 16 00:29
Balrogyou'll say Linux, right?Jun 16 00:29
balzacGNU/LinuxJun 16 00:29
Balrogthey use that tooJun 16 00:29
Balrogmost use multiple systemsJun 16 00:29
balzacwho?Jun 16 00:29
ThistleWebApple sell the package, the membership of a perceived elite clubJun 16 00:29
Balrogthe hackersJun 16 00:29
BalrogThistleWeb: Apple sells a computer that can run any x86 OSJun 16 00:30
balzacyou're talking to a very fat man with a long beard and ponytailJun 16 00:30
ThistleWebthey sell the lifestyle that "you'll be trendy, and get more attention if you buy our products"Jun 16 00:30
balzacjkJun 16 00:30
BalrogThistleWeb: that's not the Apple product users that I knowJun 16 00:30
balzacfedora installedJun 16 00:31
ThistleWebthey have cultivated the "best in class" label, which is matched by a premium price for their productsJun 16 00:31
balzacslackware downloadingJun 16 00:32
balzaci won't use an ipod or an iphoneJun 16 00:32
Balrogbalzac: because of price or lockdown?Jun 16 00:32
balzacthey're too hipster for meJun 16 00:32
balzact-mobile g-1Jun 16 00:32
Balrogif it's lockdown, you shouldn't use a pre or android based phone eitherJun 16 00:33
Balrogthat's locked down as muchJun 16 00:33
Balrog(no root == locked down to me)Jun 16 00:33
balzacyou can break it and put debian on itJun 16 00:33
Balrogyou can break the iphone and mess around with it tooJun 16 00:33
balzacyeah, but i want a keyboardJun 16 00:33
ThistleWebI won't touch Apple products myself as I don't appreciate the digital strait jacket they all come withJun 16 00:33
BalrogApple updated javaJun 16 00:33
balzacnot a shiny bar of soapJun 16 00:34
BalrogThistleWeb: you mean the DRM?Jun 16 00:34
Balrogif /that/ is what you don't want, just don't buy from the itunes storeJun 16 00:34
ThistleWebbut for those who like Apple's work flow and are happy using Apple's solutions, their stuff apparently works greatJun 16 00:34
BalrogUnlike Window Media Player, iTunes doesn't put DRM on unprotected contentJun 16 00:34
ThistleWebDRM is more than in just the tunesJun 16 00:34
ThistleWebwhen the player forces me to use iTunesJun 16 00:35
BalrogThistleWeb: when is that?Jun 16 00:35
ThistleWebas a program to interface with the deviceJun 16 00:35
Balrogwith the iphone and ipod touch that can be fixedJun 16 00:35
ThistleWebwhen other apps sometimes work, until Apple update and block them againJun 16 00:35
ThistleWebyes, it's called rokboxJun 16 00:35
balzacapple ought to make a gnu phone, all polished steel and glass, with a cover which slides open.Jun 16 00:36
balzacalcohol fuel cell poweredJun 16 00:36
balzaclooks like a whiskey flask and you can drink the fuelJun 16 00:36
BalrogRokuBox on older devicesJun 16 00:37
BalrogApple doesn't mess with the firmware on outdated devices anymoreJun 16 00:37
balzacwith a keyboard and scrolling ballJun 16 00:37
BalrogI hate scrolling ballsJun 16 00:37
Balrogon phones, at leastJun 16 00:37
balzacwhat then?Jun 16 00:38
Balrog-???Jun 16 00:38
balzacinstead of a scrolling ball?Jun 16 00:38
Balroga touchscreen, and properly implemented scrolling and zoomingJun 16 00:39
ThistleWebeven with different firmware I'd be embarassed to be seen with an iPod, it screams of "go with the crowd"Jun 16 00:39
balzaci'd prefer a scrolling ball or wheelJun 16 00:39
balzacbut steelJun 16 00:39
balzacor maybe frosted ceramic so it can be backlitJun 16 00:40
balzactouchscreen tooJun 16 00:42
Balrogtoo much bulkJun 16 00:42
balzacnot on my machineJun 16 00:43
balzaci'd have watch-makers from switzerland help machine the componentsJun 16 00:43
balzacand nano-tech expertsJun 16 00:43
Balroghmm, apple has people who do stuff like thatJun 16 00:44
Balrogit's not "all about marketing"Jun 16 00:44
balzachell, i could give it a pair of wings and make it flyJun 16 00:44
balzacinspecter gadgetJun 16 00:44
balzacyeah, but this would be called the GNU phoneJun 16 00:45
balzacnot the iphoneJun 16 00:45
Balrogbalzac: you probably want an openmoko phoneJun 16 00:46
balzactoo clunky and uglyJun 16 00:46
balzacno keyboardJun 16 00:46
Balroga GNU phone would be problematic, in part because of patents on GSM type techJun 16 00:46
balzaci want the gphoneJun 16 00:46
balzacwell, GNU needs to launch some satellitesJun 16 00:46
balzacor shoot some down ;)Jun 16 00:46
Balrogbalzac: cell phones don't use satellitesJun 16 00:47
Balrogthey use cell towers, which are very expensive to build outJun 16 00:47
balzacwell, not directlyJun 16 00:47
Balrogyeah, for communication between towers they use land-based lines and satelliteJun 16 00:47
balzacthose who own the cables on the ocean floors and the satellite networks dictate to us.Jun 16 00:48
balzacwe need to bankrupt a few of these entitiesJun 16 00:48
balzacand take their infrastructureJun 16 00:48
balzacIf I were president, I'd take ahuge bite out of rupert murdoch's media empireJun 16 00:49
Balrogbalzac: the president doesnt have that powerJun 16 00:50
balzacwanna bet?Jun 16 00:50
Balrogyou're familiar with U.S. law?Jun 16 00:50
balzacteddy roosevelt was knownas the "trust breaker"Jun 16 00:50
Balrogyeah, but he needed support from CongressJun 16 00:50
balzacyeah, and monopoly isn't legal, nor is collusion and price-fixingJun 16 00:50
Balrogwithout that he wouldn't have got anywhereJun 16 00:50
Balrogmonopoly is, abuse of monopoly isn'tJun 16 00:50
balzacwell, i'd wreak havoc on the scumbags if I were prezJun 16 00:51
ThistleWebhey, monopoly is coolJun 16 00:51
ThistleWebI spent many hours playing that as a kidJun 16 00:51
balzacyou've got to know how to take chargeJun 16 00:51
ThistleWeboh wait, we're talking a different monopoly here?Jun 16 00:51
ThistleWeblolJun 16 00:51
_Hicham_I am having a Windows XP with no Internet ExplorerJun 16 00:52
ThistleWebbiabJun 16 00:52
BalrogIE is still there, deep inside the systemJun 16 00:52
_Hicham_where?Jun 16 00:52
_Hicham_from the initial install, there is no Internet ExplorerJun 16 00:52
_Hicham_it is not in program filesJun 16 00:53
Balrogthe IE DLLs are thereJun 16 00:53
_Hicham_the mshtml.dll u mean?Jun 16 00:53
balzacBalrog: you know i'm not clowning around...Jun 16 00:53
_Hicham_I am gonna checkJun 16 00:53
schestowitzhttp://www.channelregister.co.uk/2009/06/15/sun_kills_rock_sparc/ "The word on the street today is that server maker Sun Microsystems - which is in the midst of being eaten by software giant Oracle for $5.6bn - has formally killed off the 16-core "Rock" UltraSparc-RK processor that has been in development for more than five years."Jun 16 00:54
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yuhongI just resized my Vista partition and installed Ubuntu.Jun 16 00:54
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schestowitzStealing the Iranian Election  http://www.juancole.com/2009/06/stealing-iranian-election.htmlJun 16 00:55
schestowitzOil and Indians Don't Mix http://www.truthout.org/061209AJun 16 00:56
yuhongIt seems to be a nice system.Jun 16 00:56
balzacBush should be punished for making it such a common thing to steal electionsJun 16 00:56
schestowitz"    Congratulations, Shell. $15 million: For a license to kill and drill, that's a quite a bargain."Jun 16 00:56
schestowitzBillG invests in those types of tycoonsJun 16 00:56
yuhongI would have said it is faster if it wasn't for the fact that the Vista install was an OEM preload..Jun 16 00:56
schestowitzNigerian kids die from the fumesJun 16 00:57
schestowitzbalzac: if he can, everyone canJun 16 00:57
schestowitzElse it's "hypocrisy"Jun 16 00:57
balzacyeah, all the more reason to put him on the waterboard for 183 daysJun 16 00:57
schestowitzGW Bush -- worst president ever... who wasn't elected, eitherJun 16 00:57
schestowitzThe night of the long pricksJun 16 00:58
schestowitz(swords)Jun 16 00:58
yuhongThe trickest thing was to get Flash working.Jun 16 00:58
schestowitzyuhong: it's a one-time thingJun 16 00:58
schestowitzMint has FlashJun 16 00:58
yuhongI now have Vista and Ubuntu 8.10 in a dual-boot.Jun 16 00:58
schestowitzIn fact, Mint ought to have almost everything 'pragmatists' needJun 16 00:58
schestowitzExcept the Ubuntu trademarkJun 16 00:58
schestowitzyuhong: good.Jun 16 00:59
yuhongI tried gnash and swfdec, but both didn't entirely work with the web sites I visit.Jun 16 00:59
Balrogschestowitz: 64-bit flash is a little trickyJun 16 00:59
schestowitz"The movie companies  threatened to boycott digital TV if it didn't have DRM built in. It was a bluff." http://www.stallman.org/archives/2009-mar-jun.html#15%20June%202009%20%28Movie%20companies%20threatened%20to%20boycott%20digital%20TV%29Jun 16 00:59
Balrogbut it's very stable on a 64bit machineJun 16 00:59
yuhongSo I had to install Adobe's non-free Flash Player.Jun 16 00:59
Balrogthere's an ars technica article on thatJun 16 01:00
yuhongYep, the horrors of artificial scarity again.Jun 16 01:00
schestowitzyuhong:  I use that tooJun 16 01:00
yuhongArs is my favorite news source BTW.Jun 16 01:00
schestowitzTo use YouTubeJun 16 01:00
BalrogI usually use Ars and SlashdotJun 16 01:00
yuhongI do too.Jun 16 01:00
yuhongSo far, it is IMO a great system.Jun 16 01:01
yuhongI would have said it is faster if it wasn't for the fact that my Vista install was an OEM preload.Jun 16 01:01
Balrogthe patent royalties on ATSC DTV are horrendous, thoughJun 16 01:01
schestowitzOT: Falkland islanders say Argentina is waging economic warfare  < http://www.guardian.co.uk/uk/2009/jun/14/falklands-islands-argentina-economy-industry >Jun 16 01:01
_Hicham_wow, I can install firefox, but not internet explorerJun 16 01:01
_Hicham_hmmmmmJun 16 01:01
_Hicham_IE8 refuses to installJun 16 01:01
yuhongCodecs was also tricky because of software patents.Jun 16 01:02
yuhongI got a warning from Ubuntu when I tried to install the gstreamer packages.Jun 16 01:02
yuhongBTW, what is the fundemental flaw in software patents that is why they need to be completely eliminated?Jun 16 01:03
_Hicham_this is the most weird installation of Windows that I have ever hadJun 16 01:03
Balrogthey prohibit you from writing a reimplementation of something that is compatibleJun 16 01:03
Balrogfor example, because of sw patents on h.264, the x264 codec isn't really 'free'Jun 16 01:04
Balrogif you start including it in commercial products, you could get suedJun 16 01:05
Balroglook at the recent MS vs. Tom-tom case (about FAT32 patents)Jun 16 01:05
yuhongI know, actually these patents was about FAT *LFN* extensions.Jun 16 01:11
Balrogyes exactlyJun 16 01:11
yuhongYou know, these FAT LFN extensions that was introduced in 95 and NT 3.5.Jun 16 01:11
Balrogbut without LFN, FAT is uglyJun 16 01:11
Balrogyes.Jun 16 01:11
yuhongTo go beyond 8.3 DOS filenames.Jun 16 01:11
BalrogI knowJun 16 01:12
yuhongNT 3.1 supported LFNs only on NTFS.Jun 16 01:13
yuhongAnd HPFS.Jun 16 01:13
yuhongAnd OS/2 supported them under only HPFS.Jun 16 01:13
BalrogNTFS and HPFS do LFN differentlyJun 16 01:13
schestowitz" Open Source World was previously known as LinuxWorld. At this year's event, there will be MySQL-related content, seminars on mobile development and security, and cloud computing news. With free admission, it sounds worth attending." http://ostatic.com/blog/new-moves-needed-for-open-source-trade-showsJun 16 01:13
yuhongFor example, they generate different short names for LFNs.Jun 16 01:14
yuhongNetWare used the HPFS way since it used the OS/2 namespace to store both Windows and OS/2 LFNs.Jun 16 01:14
yuhongNeither NT 3.1 nor OS/2 supported LFNs on FAT.Jun 16 01:14
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yuhongAnother old favorite for me was Raymond Chen's weblog from MS.Jun 16 01:23
ThistleWebthe 264 codec will incur costs from sometime next yearJun 16 01:24
BalrogThistleWeb: ??Jun 16 01:25
ThistleWebI believe it's April 2010, they aint released details on who needs to pay them or for what usesJun 16 01:25
ThistleWebit's free to use until thenJun 16 01:25
Balrogurl?Jun 16 01:25
ThistleWebthey plan to start charging for it thoughJun 16 01:25
ThistleWebdunno, it's on the TOC page of the patent holders according to the software freedom law center podcastJun 16 01:26
ThistleWebapparently it's listed, along with the date, which offhand I think is April 2010Jun 16 01:26
yuhonghttp://arstechnica.com/open-source/news/2009/06/canonical-to-boost-ubuntu-usability-by-tackling-papercuts.arsJun 16 01:27
yuhongBTW, it wasn't just MS that ignored standards.Jun 16 01:28
yuhongNetscape ignored standards as well.Jun 16 01:28
yuhongIn the browser war between IE and Netscape.Jun 16 01:28
ThistleWebit's not sure if this was the page they were talking about http://www.mpegla.com/avc/Jun 16 01:29
ThistleWebthat page has no start dateJun 16 01:30
balzacI better bug out for a whileJun 16 01:30
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yuhongUnfortunately MS broke Netscape's business model by making IE free.Jun 16 01:30
yuhongIn fact it turned into a game.Jun 16 01:31
yuhongFirst Netscape tried to make money from browsers, MS made that free with IE, then Netscape tried to make money from web server software, then MS made that free with IIS.Jun 16 01:32
Balrogyuhong: what about apache?Jun 16 01:33
yuhongThat was always free and open source and eventually became more popular as a web server.Jun 16 01:34
yuhongIn fact, just as Netscape made it's browsers gratis, they also announced that future versions will become open source as well.Jun 16 01:35
Balrogand IIS wasn't really freeJun 16 01:36
Balrogyes, I knowJun 16 01:36
mtnd3wwow this maintainer: http://np237.livejournal.com/23901.html?view=162397Jun 16 01:37
mtnd3wreading some of his comments...Jun 16 01:37
mtnd3w"And I am sorry to inform you that the Project does not give a shit of your political agenda. The reason why Tomboy was not included in the default Lenny installation is not because of stupid software patents. If we gave a shit of inapplicable software patents, we wouldn’t be shipping MP3 decoding software by default. If we gave a shit, we wouldn’t ship Mono in main, regardless of what is in the default installation. We don’Jun 16 01:38
mtnd3wt give a shit of where is Mono coming from, as long as it is free software. As Jo explained, we don’t even give a shit of what Mono is, it just happens to be a dependency for Tomboy. "Jun 16 01:38
Balrogmtnd3w: gnote ..???Jun 16 01:38
yuhongIndeed it is not as bad as a MS-Novell like deal, but they still should be careful.Jun 16 01:39
ThistleWebthe argument for / against mono by default has some things I can't figure out. What (normal users desktop) mono apps don't have an equivalent non mono one?Jun 16 01:40
ThistleWebrythmbox or exaile do what banshee doesJun 16 01:40
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[davidgerard] "So well done, Microsoft! You've released a browser that deletes a system file it shouldn't even LOOK at!" http://is.gd/12VXFJun 16 01:40
ThistleWebgnote does what tomboy doesJun 16 01:40
ThistleWebgtumb does what f-spot doesJun 16 01:41
ThistleWebwhat niche does a specific mono app fill for a regular user?Jun 16 01:41
ThistleWebmono does fill a need, that if you already have .net apps that you rely on, and there's no linux compatible equivelant, then it lets them run on your linux pcJun 16 01:42
yuhongWhich is OK, which is why BN don't complain about DotGNU.Jun 16 01:42
ThistleWebbut if you don't have that need, then mono serves no usefull purpose as a default installJun 16 01:42
ThistleWebif you're not locked in, you don't start willingly locking yourself inJun 16 01:43
yuhongOf course not.Jun 16 01:43
ThistleWebI'd imagine that essensial .net apps would tend to be in buisnesses who contracted vendors to write proprietary apps specifically for themJun 16 01:44
ThistleWebthat is not the typical userJun 16 01:45
ThistleWebthat would involve an admin installing  / configuring all the user lockdown their policies requireJun 16 01:45
ThistleWebso I can't figure out what mono brings to the table for the normal user that ain't served elsewhereJun 16 01:46
yuhongI have mono installed, and am not about to remove them.Jun 16 01:46
ThistleWebwhat desktop mono apps have no non-mono equivelant?Jun 16 01:47
ThistleWebpossibly tomboy 6 months agoJun 16 01:47
ThistleWebbut tomboy aint the only note takerJun 16 01:47
yuhongGnote is another.Jun 16 01:47
ThistleWebyeah, thats what I mean, gnote didnt exist 6mths agoJun 16 01:48
ThistleWebalternates to f-spot?Jun 16 01:48
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ThistleWebbetween gimp, inkscape, gthumb and gpicviewer, they do all I need with picsJun 16 01:49
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ThistleWebso I dunno what others are out there for organising collectionsJun 16 01:49
yuhongOne thing that irrates me is that there is no gdb symbol server.Jun 16 01:49
yuhongLike the MS symbol server I am used to on Windows.Jun 16 01:49
yuhongSo I have to manually install symbolsJun 16 01:49
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ThistleWebbanshee, rythmbox and exaile all seem to be as good as each other with similar functionality and a few individual features the others dont haveJun 16 01:50
ThistleWeband amarok of courseJun 16 01:50
yuhongAnd not all packages in Ubuntu have them.Jun 16 01:52
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yuhongActually, packages in Ubuntu have ddebs, but it is would still be much easier if there was a GDB symbol server.Jun 16 01:54
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neighborleeschestowitz, btw thx for mentioning a great engine to take place of unity <mono>...panda3d rocks :))Jun 16 02:02
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DaemonMDVWell, I've noticed a few things about BansheeJun 16 05:16
DaemonMDVit's MTP support is a total crapshoot, sometimes it works great, sometimes it kills Banshee for no reasonJun 16 05:16
DaemonMDVit likes to crap up your device with metadata that only Banshee understandsJun 16 05:17
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DaemonMDVand instead of "sync" meaning transfer music that's on your disk to the device if it's not thereJun 16 05:18
DaemonMDVit also means delete anything off your disk that's not on the deviceJun 16 05:18
DaemonMDVwhich is fun if you're on someone elses computer I'm sureJun 16 05:18
TLintondoes it support sansa players?Jun 16 05:22
DaemonMDVsort ofJun 16 05:24
DaemonMDV1.5.0 is much better than 1.4.2Jun 16 05:24
DaemonMDVbut it's still hardly a guarantee that it will always workJun 16 05:24
DaemonMDVand it never transfers cover art over MTPJun 16 05:24
DaemonMDVRhythmbox doesJun 16 05:25
TLintonhmm, i should try itJun 16 05:25
DaemonMDVthe only thing Rhythmbox can't tranfer over is video, so you can unplug the player, switch it to MSC mode, and drop videos in the "VIDEO" folderJun 16 05:25
TLintoni haven't thought of that until nowJun 16 05:25
DaemonMDVthe player can see anything added in either mode, but the OS can only see MSC added files when the device is in MSC modeJun 16 05:26
DaemonMDVsame with MTPJun 16 05:26
TLintonlike windowsJun 16 05:26
TLintonyeahJun 16 05:26
DaemonMDVthey're mutually exclusive as far as the OS is concernedJun 16 05:26
TLintonit's ok of it doesn't sync well thoughJun 16 05:26
TLintoni really don't syncJun 16 05:26
TLintonjust copy music over manuallyJun 16 05:26
DaemonMDVthe Sansa view does support MP4 but it doesn't understand most of the tag infoJun 16 05:27
DaemonMDVso it will get the track order wrongJun 16 05:27
DaemonMDVyou should plan on using MP3 or WMAJun 16 05:27
DaemonMDVbasicallyJun 16 05:27
neighborleeDaemonMDV, yikesJun 16 05:28
neighborleearen't sansa one of few that do ogg ?Jun 16 05:28
neighborleeI realy need to get one if soJun 16 05:28
DaemonMDVsome modelsJun 16 05:29
DaemonMDVthe Clip supports VorbisJun 16 05:29
DaemonMDVbut it's junkJun 16 05:29
DaemonMDVonly 2-4 gigs and no expansion bayJun 16 05:29
DaemonMDVthe Fuze supports it, but costs a lotJun 16 05:29
TLintonyeah, i have a 4gbJun 16 05:29
TLintonit's not badJun 16 05:29
neighborlee4 would be fine I thinkJun 16 05:29
TLintoni don't have that much music on it anywayJun 16 05:29
neighborleehow much could I really listen to over a few hours anyway ;)Jun 16 05:30
neighborleemy intended target anywayJun 16 05:30
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DaemonMDVI'm still trying different ways to tag MP4 filesJun 16 05:30
DaemonMDVbut it either gets the order wrong or won't play themJun 16 05:30
DaemonMDVjust hoping I stumble on something that worksJun 16 05:31
neighborleewell if your testing is any indication..they can't be serious about even trying to get banshee into n ext buntu..Jun 16 05:31
DaemonMDVBanshee 1.5.0 has a lot of good stuff, but it's severely lacking in many key aspects that are critical to make a good media playerJun 16 05:32
DaemonMDVRhythmbox has less features, but it's far more reliableJun 16 05:32
neighborleecorrect it sound s like it yesJun 16 05:32
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DaemonMDVif I was making the call for Ubuntu I'd stick with Rhythmbox in KarmicJun 16 05:32
DaemonMDVand see where Banshee is at 1.6.0Jun 16 05:33
neighborleewell based on that criteria seems logicalJun 16 05:33
neighborleebut I suspect..by then depends what fedora12 realy does that the landscape might be vastly differentJun 16 05:33
mib_ox9bokHow is Exaile doing?Jun 16 05:33
DaemonMDVright now I'd say that Rhythmbox serves the needs of the most users more of the timeJun 16 05:33
DaemonMDVI do need to see about thatJun 16 05:34
DaemonMDVthanks for reminding meJun 16 05:34
mib_ox9bok(I still use Amarok, even in gnome)Jun 16 05:34
mib_ox9bok(the 1.x branch, though)Jun 16 05:34
DaemonMDVyes, Amarok uses libmtp as wellJun 16 05:34
neighborleeits not real stable here in fedora anyway..rhythmbox is fineJun 16 05:34
mib_ox9bokI still haven't upgradedJun 16 05:34
DaemonMDVthe libmtp people have done a good jobJun 16 05:34
DaemonMDVBanshee just does a psis poor job integrating with itJun 16 05:34
mib_ox9bokExaile seemed to be the closest thing to Amarok in Gnome when I tried it yonks ago, but it wasn't yet on par with Amarok at the time.Jun 16 05:35
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mib_ox9bokWell, like clockwork, we have another piece of potential FUD bashing ARM netbooks and Android before they're even out yet:Jun 16 05:37
mib_ox9bokhttp://blogs.zdnet.com/computers/?p=747Jun 16 05:37
DaemonMDVthe market will decide ARM's fateJun 16 05:38
DaemonMDVI won't be buying one thoughJun 16 05:39
DaemonMDVif I wanted a cheap netbook, I'd just go with a Via x86 knockoffJun 16 05:39
DaemonMDVit's not like you're getting great performance or great battery life going with ARMJun 16 05:39
DaemonMDVyou're essentially buying incompatibility and lock-inJun 16 05:40
DaemonMDVyou can make a cheap desktop with Via board and CPUJun 16 05:40
DaemonMDVyou can get both together for like $60Jun 16 05:40
DaemonMDVthat leaves RAM, PSU, hard disk, a case, and a DVD-RW driveJun 16 05:41
neighborleesome very able friends are using it for inexpensive gaming console  ..not sure which one id have to ask but they seemed very excited about potential..they got panda3d working on it :)Jun 16 05:41
DaemonMDVcase might be $80, a gig of RAM will cost you about $10, a PSY maybe $40, a hard drive maybe $50, and a DVD-RW for $20Jun 16 05:42
mib_ox9bokWhere does the incompatibility and lock-in come in?Jun 16 05:42
DaemonMDVARM is not compatible with x86Jun 16 05:42
DaemonMDVand Android is not exactly compatible with standard LinuxJun 16 05:42
DaemonMDVI suppose you could ditch that thoughJun 16 05:42
DaemonMDVand use DebianJun 16 05:42
mib_ox9bokWhat's the status of package availability for ARM?Jun 16 05:43
DaemonMDVHEY!!Jun 16 05:43
DaemonMDVhahaJun 16 05:43
DaemonMDVI got track order fixedJun 16 05:43
DaemonMDVwith MP4Jun 16 05:43
DaemonMDVyou have to use Rhythmbox's tag editorJun 16 05:43
DaemonMDVTHEN import to the deviceJun 16 05:44
DaemonMDVRhythmbox apparently just ignores the tags you make with EasytagJun 16 05:44
mib_ox9bokOh, btw, Daemon, I think I remember you saying something about the dearth of music players that can handle ogg and flac one time.  The Sansa Fuze can handle them natively, and it isn't too expensive for an ipod-like player.Jun 16 05:45
DaemonMDVyeah, nobody will use them thoughJun 16 05:46
DaemonMDVit appeases a few fringe customersJun 16 05:46
mib_ox9bokI haven't yet understood the ipod's appeal.  These days it's easy to find players out there with 8x the features at 1/4 or less the cost.Jun 16 05:47
DaemonMDVfor some reason, the build of FAAC on Linux does better than the one for WindowsJun 16 05:47
DaemonMDVhmmm, I can use Foobar 2000 and Nero AAC in WineJun 16 05:49
DaemonMDVhehJun 16 05:50
neighborleemib_ox9bok, and without the lockin ;))Jun 16 05:50
DaemonMDVneighborlee: So View is WMA/MP3, and MP4 supportJun 16 05:51
DaemonMDVfor some reason you just have to edit the tags with the proper track order in RhythmboxJun 16 05:51
neighborleenow I get the FF 3.5b4 in fedora..OGG supportJun 16 05:51
DaemonMDVprobably ends up on the device that way because MTP just has a database, not traditional tags or playlistsJun 16 05:52
mib_ox9bokI'm not a fan of mtpJun 16 05:52
neighborleewell I hope the fedora 11 RC ending wasn't what toexpect of actual release code..rhythbox was taking forever to load audio cd into itself...Jun 16 05:53
mib_ox9bokI usually use msc insteadJun 16 05:53
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DaemonMDVhehJun 16 06:04
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DaemonMDVusing the Nero AAC converter through Foobar 2000 in Wine :PJun 16 06:05
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twitterCuban lols, http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2009/jun/15/antonio-castro-internet-romanceJun 16 06:12
DaemonMDVhmmm, Nero AAC is faster in Wine than on VistaJun 16 06:18
DaemonMDVabout 25% fasterJun 16 06:18
DaemonMDV:PJun 16 06:18
DaemonMDVhttp://www.alexa.com/siteinfo/ubuntu.com+fedoraproject.org+mandriva.comJun 16 06:39
DaemonMDVhmmmJun 16 06:40
neighborleenero bitesJun 16 06:40
DaemonMDVhttp://www.alexa.com/siteinfo/ubuntu.com+fedoraproject.org+opensuse.orgJun 16 06:40
neighborleeive used it..their support is horridJun 16 06:40
neighborleeand app BLOatedJun 16 06:40
DaemonMDVOpenSuse is about as popular as FedoraJun 16 06:41
neighborleenot just me either..many friends concurJun 16 06:41
DaemonMDVbut interest in Fedora of course spiked because they just had a releaseJun 16 06:41
DaemonMDVno, not Nero SuiteJun 16 06:41
DaemonMDVjust the AAC encoderJun 16 06:41
neighborleewell you mentioned nero so I had to comment ;)Jun 16 06:41
neighborleebrought up horrid memories ;)Jun 16 06:42
neighborleewell the day they consider taking out mono is the day they might achieve equal footing ;)Jun 16 06:42
neighborleefairness..I always did admire opensuse installerJun 16 06:43
neighborleeNOT package manager so muchJun 16 06:43
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DaemonMDVhttp://www.alexa.com/siteinfo/ubuntu.com+fedoraproject.org+mandriva.com+debian.org+microsoft.comJun 16 06:45
DaemonMDVthe most popular Linux distros vs microsoft.com hitsJun 16 06:45
DaemonMDVMicrosoft is the only thing left on the graphJun 16 06:45
DaemonMDVeven Ubuntu is nowhere close even though they are roughly three times as popular as DebianJun 16 06:46
DaemonMDVand 5 times as popular as MandrivaJun 16 06:46
neighborleewell with their purse strings who is surprisedJun 16 06:48
neighborleenice site thoughJun 16 06:48
neighborleewhat OS  are you in atmJun 16 06:49
DaemonMDVMandrivaJun 16 06:49
neighborleeim so tired of slow scrollin ;0-Jun 16 06:49
neighborleelingJun 16 06:49
neighborleeah yesJun 16 06:49
neighborleeVM or real thingJun 16 06:50
DaemonMDVrealJun 16 06:50
DaemonMDVUbuntu really grinds my gearsJun 16 06:50
DaemonMDVI can't stand it for very longJun 16 06:50
DaemonMDVtoo many blatant fuck upsJun 16 06:50
neighborleehmJun 16 06:50
DaemonMDVI plug in my Sansa and first Ubuntu tries mounting it as a driveJun 16 06:50
DaemonMDValerts me it failedJun 16 06:50
DaemonMDVI click the OK buttonJun 16 06:51
DaemonMDVit immediately tries to mount it as a CAMERAJun 16 06:51
DaemonMDValerts me it failedJun 16 06:51
neighborleehehJun 16 06:51
DaemonMDVI click OKJun 16 06:51
DaemonMDV"A digital media player has been detected"Jun 16 06:51
DaemonMDVFINALLY!!!!Jun 16 06:51
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DaemonMDVOpen in RhythmboxJun 16 06:51
neighborleeweirdJun 16 06:51
DaemonMDVsystem hangsJun 16 06:51
DaemonMDVMandriva doesn't even try to mount itJun 16 06:52
DaemonMDVwhich is OK because it's not supposed toJun 16 06:52
neighborleewas going to ask ;)Jun 16 06:52
DaemonMDVbut if I put the player in MSC mode, obviously it will mount itJun 16 06:52
DaemonMDV:)Jun 16 06:52
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neighborleewellJun 16 06:53
neighborleeive always had soft spot for mand*Jun 16 06:53
neighborleeI always loved using urpmfJun 16 06:53
DaemonMDVthey've had some really bizarre problems in the pastJun 16 06:53
neighborleeefficient..fast..Jun 16 06:53
neighborleeyesJun 16 06:53
DaemonMDVbut 2009 and 2009 Spring have been pretty goodJun 16 06:53
neighborlee2009 got a nasty review by distrwwatch this time..dunno im about to verify that ;)Jun 16 06:53
neighborleeI WISH they had a 64bit ONE livecd though...Jun 16 06:54
DaemonMDVaccording to Alexa, Mandriva is 7% more popular in this quarter than the lastJun 16 06:54
DaemonMDVMicrosoft is 5.51% LESS popularJun 16 06:54
DaemonMDVUbuntu.com is 76% more popularJun 16 06:55
neighborleeyeahJun 16 06:55
DaemonMDVUbuntu is really benefiting from disgruntled Vista usersJun 16 06:55
neighborleequiteJun 16 06:56
DaemonMDVApple.com has only gone up 1.3%Jun 16 06:56
neighborleeit wont last long I dont think..win7 is alot better..time will tell I guessJun 16 06:56
DaemonMDVso that's not accounting for the exodus of Microsoft custoemrsJun 16 06:56
DaemonMDVthe damage is doneJun 16 06:56
DaemonMDVVista has scared off Microsoft's traditionally profitable customersJun 16 06:57
neighborleesupposedly vista >win  are getting big breaksJun 16 06:57
neighborleewin 7Jun 16 06:57
DaemonMDVeven with all the bought press for Win7Jun 16 06:57
DaemonMDVMicrosoft is still getting less popularJun 16 06:57
DaemonMDVas evidences by daily site hitsJun 16 06:57
DaemonMDV*evidencedJun 16 06:57
neighborleemaybe good thing 360 is doing acceptably LOLJun 16 06:58
twitterWin7 == Vista 2.0  http://slashdot.org/~twitter/journal/215957Jun 16 06:58
twitterWindows is and always be Windows.Jun 16 06:58
neighborleethere is thatJun 16 06:58
DaemonMDVxbox.com is DOWN 14.1%Jun 16 06:58
DaemonMDV:)Jun 16 06:58
twitter*will beJun 16 06:59
DaemonMDVerrr 14.7%Jun 16 06:59
DaemonMDV:)Jun 16 06:59
DaemonMDVread it wrongJun 16 06:59
neighborleewoahJun 16 06:59
DaemonMDVhttp://www.alexa.com/siteinfo/bing.com+google.com+yahoo.comJun 16 06:59
neighborleeive used bing I dont like itJun 16 07:00
DaemonMDVBing is at about 5% of search market at the momentJun 16 07:00
DaemonMDVGoogle has nearly 90% to itselfJun 16 07:00
twitterI like David Gerard's write up of Bob Hope search.Jun 16 07:00
neighborleehmm sounds familar LOLJun 16 07:00
twitterBraaainsJun 16 07:00
neighborleetwitter, yup saw that haJun 16 07:00
DaemonMDVOpenSuse is 27% more popular in this quarterJun 16 07:01
DaemonMDVFedora is up 40%Jun 16 07:01
neighborleenew release..we'll see if it   stays upJun 16 07:01
DaemonMDVSuse hasn't made a new release in the last three monthsJun 16 07:01
DaemonMDVso that wouldn't explain their popularityJun 16 07:02
DaemonMDVDebian is down 5%Jun 16 07:02
DaemonMDVfor the most part, Linux distros are getting more traffic to their sitesJun 16 07:02
DaemonMDVand Microsoft and Apple are doing worse than usualJun 16 07:02
neighborleeDaemonMDV, well news of them playing with sliding away from mono wont hurt themJun 16 07:03
DaemonMDVmakes senseJun 16 07:03
DaemonMDVbad economyJun 16 07:03
DaemonMDVslap Linux on the old systemJun 16 07:03
DaemonMDVkeep it going for a whileJun 16 07:03
neighborleeindeedJun 16 07:03
DaemonMDVWindows makes its money off new computer salesJun 16 07:04
DaemonMDVwhich are tankingJun 16 07:04
DaemonMDVso Windows 7 might not help them as much as they're hopingJun 16 07:04
DaemonMDVit's why they're giving away cheap upgrade kitsJun 16 07:04
DaemonMDVtrying to keep people from going to Linux to save $160 on an upgradeJun 16 07:05
neighborlee'ready for vista' didn't exactly help themJun 16 07:05
DaemonMDVthey're sinking so they're throwing cheap Windows 7 at people to try to persuade them not to give up on WindowsJun 16 07:05
neighborleenot even with their own employees for petes sake LOLJun 16 07:05
DaemonMDVI have absolutely no idea why Mandriva has to have BeagleJun 16 07:06
neighborleehmJun 16 07:06
DaemonMDVthe thing takes 60 megs of RAM at all times to make searches in your home folder 2 seconds fasterJun 16 07:06
DaemonMDVUbuntu has been using Tracker for quite some timeJun 16 07:07
DaemonMDVthey're both equally goodJun 16 07:07
neighborleeodd..I thought tracker was a standard these days...shows how much ive kept up I guesss on that frontJun 16 07:07
neighborleeyeahJun 16 07:07
DaemonMDVbut Tracker takes like 20 megsJun 16 07:07
neighborleeI know about libbeagle in c,,is beagle pure monoJun 16 07:08
DaemonMDVmost of it isJun 16 07:08
DaemonMDVlibbeagle you need for Brasero thoughJun 16 07:09
DaemonMDVso you shouldn't remove itJun 16 07:09
DaemonMDVbut yeah, that lib is in CJun 16 07:09
neighborleeyou have intel gpu ?Jun 16 07:09
neighborleedistrowatch  on mandriva 2009 says big issue over gpu driversJun 16 07:09
neighborlee" Unfortunately, I've never seen a Mandriva release before with so many bugs. "Jun 16 07:09
neighborlee:(Jun 16 07:10
neighborleehttp://distrowatch.com/weekly.php?issue=20090525#featureJun 16 07:10
neighborleenot that it might be in error, but there it isJun 16 07:10
DaemonMDVhttp://img189.imageshack.us/img189/552/screenshotnqn.pngJun 16 07:14
neighborleedecent ;)Jun 16 07:16
neighborleeI remove bottom bar,,make top one 1/4 size and move to bottom :))Jun 16 07:17
neighborleeoh and of course add app window list :)Jun 16 07:17
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fewaneighborlee, whats whong with gnome default layout?Jun 16 07:20
neighborleenothingJun 16 07:20
neighborleeim just finickyJun 16 07:20
neighborleeI like things out of my way I guessJun 16 07:21
neighborleeas in clean desktopJun 16 07:21
DaemonMDVUbuntu is most popular in the United StatesJun 16 07:25
DaemonMDVfollowed closely by IndiaJun 16 07:25
DaemonMDVthen GermanyJun 16 07:25
DaemonMDVthen falls to 5% and 4.5% of their visitors coming from China and the UKJun 16 07:25
DaemonMDVrespectivelyJun 16 07:25
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DaemonMDVin terms of sheer numbers of users that isJun 16 07:26
DaemonMDVin terms of every site on the internet, Ubuntu is number 2,998 in the United StatesJun 16 07:26
DaemonMDVMicrosoft is number 18Jun 16 07:27
neighborleegez ;)Jun 16 07:27
DaemonMDVMandriva is 43,510Jun 16 07:28
DaemonMDVMandriva is most popular in IrelandJun 16 07:28
neighborleeo_0Jun 16 07:28
DaemonMDVwhere is ranks 6,353Jun 16 07:28
DaemonMDVin France it's 8,224Jun 16 07:28
DaemonMDVUbuntu is most popular in Austria followed closely by GermanyJun 16 07:30
neighborleehm my show is on bbl,thx for intriguing statsJun 16 07:30
DaemonMDV:PJun 16 07:30
fewahttp://notnews.today.com/2009/06/15/fear-of-microsoft-bob-hope-grips-google/Jun 16 08:06
fewahahahaJun 16 08:06
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DaemonMDVhmmmmJun 16 08:18
DaemonMDVHow much does iTunes Plus music cost?Jun 16 08:18
DaemonMDViTunes Plus songs are available at one of three price points. In the U.S. the pricing is 0.69 USD, 0.99 USD, or 1.29 USDJun 16 08:18
DaemonMDVso what is there for 69 cents a track?Jun 16 08:18
DaemonMDVI've never seen anything at that priceJun 16 08:18
DaemonMDVactually if you buy music in iTunes Plus, you're paying $15.48 for the albumJun 16 08:21
DaemonMDVwhere the CD probably is $10Jun 16 08:21
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schestowitz"Now we can really rock & roll with smoking guns I yearned to get done."Jun 16 08:36
schestowitzThere's OCR on the two PDFs, but we need the full text to make articles. You may also want to add comments for me to embed (withJun 16 08:36
schestowitzattribution to "wallclimber").Jun 16 08:36
schestowitz^^^We're resuming Comes now :-)Jun 16 08:37
schestowitzfewa: you know David?Jun 16 08:37
fewanoJun 16 08:38
fewabut hes funnyJun 16 08:38
DaemonMDVthe Christians are hijacking the special session of the Indiana AssemblyJun 16 08:39
DaemonMDVthe purpose of the session is to come up with a budgetJun 16 08:39
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fewaDaemonMDV, what do you mean?Jun 16 08:39
DaemonMDVthey're tryingto tack in a constitutional amendment against same-sex marriage into the budgetJun 16 08:39
DaemonMDVas a riderJun 16 08:39
fewawutJun 16 08:39
fewathe legislature can pass constitutional amendments?Jun 16 08:40
fewaisnt that contrived?Jun 16 08:40
DaemonMDVwith a super-majority and the governor's signatureJun 16 08:40
DaemonMDVyesJun 16 08:40
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fewathen it isnt a riderJun 16 08:40
DaemonMDVthey have to get 3/4's of both the Indiana house and senateJun 16 08:40
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] Boycott Novell shall soon resume exposing crimes from Comes vs Microsoft exhibitsJun 16 08:40
DaemonMDVthat won't happenJun 16 08:40
DaemonMDVyeah it is, if we have to pass a budget badly enoughJun 16 08:40
DaemonMDVthey can keep attaching it til the Democrats break down andvote for itJun 16 08:41
DaemonMDVso goes their thinkingJun 16 08:41
fewaso they can add a constitutional amendment to a bill with only 50%?Jun 16 08:41
fewaconstitional amendments dont make sense with normal billsJun 16 08:41
DaemonMDVthey have to pass the full bill or reject the full billJun 16 08:41
DaemonMDVso the budget doesn't get passed til the Marriage Discrimination Amendment doesJun 16 08:42
DaemonMDVget it?Jun 16 08:42
fewabut a constitutional amendment is not a billJun 16 08:42
fewait should be forced to be its own vote, and not be mixedJun 16 08:42
DaemonMDVnot at the federal levelJun 16 08:42
DaemonMDVwell, it should, yesJun 16 08:42
DaemonMDVbut they're desperateJun 16 08:42
fewaI dont think the federal government has ever put a bill and a constitutional amendment togetherJun 16 08:42
fewathat doesnt seem like proper procedureJun 16 08:42
DaemonMDVtheir Marriage Discrimination Amendment has been shot down by the Indiana House of RepresentativesJun 16 08:42
DaemonMDVthree years runningJun 16 08:43
fewastill seems like break of procedureJun 16 08:43
DaemonMDVso now they'll stop at nothingJun 16 08:43
DaemonMDVthey're Republicans, they have no shame or honorJun 16 08:43
fewadoesnt mean they are above the lawJun 16 08:43
fewaooo, waitJun 16 08:43
DaemonMDVthe golden rule, he who has the gold makes the rulesJun 16 08:44
DaemonMDVthe Christians are a big business with lots of bribe money to dish outJun 16 08:44
fewa*big business christiansJun 16 08:45
DaemonMDVthe Christians have a great business modelJun 16 08:45
fewathere are many denominations of christianity, and "American" is one of themJun 16 08:46
DaemonMDVfew expenses, pay no taxes, take in billions of dollars by threatening, coercing, and panderingJun 16 08:46
DaemonMDVit's just so perfectJun 16 08:46
fewabut a church lobbying for legislation or political canidates is illegalJun 16 08:46
DaemonMDVno it isn'tJun 16 08:46
fewaAFAIKJun 16 08:46
fewait is for every other tax-exempt entitityJun 16 08:46
DaemonMDVwhat they do is they pool money and give it to a proxy organizationJun 16 08:47
DaemonMDVwho does the lobbying for themJun 16 08:47
DaemonMDV:)Jun 16 08:47
fewaa PACJun 16 08:47
DaemonMDVwell, those tooJun 16 08:47
DaemonMDVbut they do most of their lobbying through organizations that are not labeled as PACsJun 16 08:48
DaemonMDVthat way there's less regulations on themJun 16 08:48
DaemonMDVthe Christians are effectively an organized crime syndicateJun 16 08:48
fewawhile I dont neccicarly promote christianity, I still do think you are mistaken in lumping all christians togetherJun 16 08:49
fewaalthouth that might apply to IndianaJun 16 08:49
DaemonMDVthey're pretty much all the sameJun 16 08:49
fewanot in other parts of the worldJun 16 08:49
DaemonMDVonce you get into crazy rituals and hokey groupthink practicesJun 16 08:49
DaemonMDVyou start losing meJun 16 08:49
fewaalthough they have many similaritiesJun 16 08:49
fewaorganized religion as a whole is quite under siege these days, being on the opposing end of science and progressJun 16 08:50
schestowitzhttp://www.linuxtoday.com/news_story.php3?ltsn=2009-06-16-009-35-OP-SW-LL-0000Jun 16 08:51
schestowitz"He describes his job: my responsibilities cover day-to-day user and systems support, as well as the design and implementation of new services and infrastructure to better serve the needs of our users. That's in his vita ( http://www2.apebox.org/data/cv.pdf) which is obviously pimping for a new job: If you feel you can pay better, and need a qualified geek, then you can take a peek at my Curriculum Vitae.Jun 16 08:51
schestowitzIn America we call that a Help Desk, which is usually occupied by several MSCEs. "Jun 16 08:51
DaemonMDVyou can tell me one group may be slightly less stark raving crazyJun 16 08:51
DaemonMDVand I'll consider believing itJun 16 08:51
DaemonMDVbut you can't tell me that any of them are totally saneJun 16 08:51
fewa*for being seen asJun 16 08:53
schestowitzhttp://www.penguspy.com/blog/games-on-linux-say-what-o/ "I am a gamer in a state of denial. I refuse to use windows anymore! I love the speed,stability and ease of use of my Linux desktop pc (doesn’t matter which distro I use). But I also love games :/"Jun 16 09:01
DaemonMDVthat's what Wine is forJun 16 09:01
fewanexuiz !Jun 16 09:03
fewaand that is why DirectX is evilJun 16 09:03
DaemonMDVhmmm, that's why the files are smallJun 16 09:04
DaemonMDVSoundConverter passes the wrong settings to LAMEJun 16 09:04
DaemonMDVif you tell it to use V 0 it still passes V 1 is what it looks likeJun 16 09:06
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schestowitzBack in  a momentJun 16 09:14
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**** BEGIN LOGGING AT Tue Jun 16 09:18:05 2009
*Now talking on #boycottnovellJun 16 09:18
*Topic for #boycottnovell is: Communication about anything, including Microsoft, Novell, and Free software [publicly logged]Jun 16 09:18
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-ChanServ-[#boycottnovell] Welcome to the #boycottnovell channelJun 16 09:18
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-BNc/#boycottnovell-[omar_s_hafez] Okay! This is my first Thots post!<br>You should give it a try! http://www.tonido.com/Jun 16 09:19
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-BNc/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] Migration to Linux and FOSS in India: http://ping.fm/lwYjcJun 16 09:47
schestowitzUK: You Can't Photograph Sensitive Buildings; Photogs: Which Are Sensitive? UK: That's Classified < http://techdirt.com/articles/20090614/1753145223.shtml >Jun 16 09:48
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-BNc/#boycottnovell-[davidgerard] @schestowitz sorry I haven't transcribed anything, I am discovering that a toddler takes up 200% of any number of parents' time!Jun 16 09:57
*DaemonMDV hates it when people use RARJun 16 10:03
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[davidgerard] RT @nzmrmn change yr Twitter settings to show GMT +03:30 Tehran as your timezone, change home city to Tehran to confuse the Iranian censors.Jun 16 10:07
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splosionDaemonMDV: why so?Jun 16 10:12
DaemonMDVbecause it makes the files more vulnerableJun 16 10:13
DaemonMDVany error in the archive ruins the whole thingJun 16 10:13
DaemonMDVand it usually makes compressed music files larger anywayJun 16 10:13
splosionsure, but they're handy for file-sharing sitesJun 16 10:15
DaemonMDVwith bittorrent it hardly matterJun 16 10:15
DaemonMDV*mattersJun 16 10:15
splosiondoes if you can't use bittorrent :)Jun 16 10:16
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[davidgerard] Your "d'awwwww!" story of the day (watch video): http://is.gd/13jmVJun 16 10:17
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] @davidgerard : can you do this one for us? Please? http://bit.ly/ye8SkJun 16 10:17
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[davidgerard] A sexist tech presentation bingo card by @skud: http://is.gd/13js0Jun 16 10:17
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*Np237 (n=joss@diva.malsain.org) has left #boycottnovell ("The spice expands consciousness")Jun 16 10:51
splosiongood article re Bing http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?f=/g/a/2009/06/15/urnidgns852573C400693880002575D6007E49AE.DTLJun 16 10:51
schestowitzPress Article has just covered Microsoft AstroTurfs and linked to BN.Jun 16 10:52
schestowitzlatest show < tllts_302-06-10-09.mp3 > talks quite a bit about BN and Stefano..Jun 16 10:52
DaemonMDVhmm, turns out this thing is fully MPEG-4 compliantJun 16 10:57
DaemonMDVthough they don't document most of thisJun 16 10:57
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DaemonMDVprobably trying to get out of paying licensing feesJun 16 10:58
DaemonMDVthe documentation only says you can use MP3 or WMAJun 16 10:59
DaemonMDVand I'll be damned if I can get a straight answer from SandiskJun 16 10:59
DaemonMDVhehJun 16 10:59
splosionoh huh. Furk. bittorrent for me behind a corporate proxy. ooh. hosted in america, though. Methinks it'll get DMCA'd 10, 9, 8..Jun 16 11:01
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splosionhttps://www.furk.net/ hereJun 16 11:01
IsBobhi thereJun 16 11:01
DaemonMDVyou know that Ubuntu has used a DMCA Take Down order once?Jun 16 11:02
DaemonMDVironically it was used against the MPAAJun 16 11:02
DaemonMDVso I'm all for itJun 16 11:02
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DaemonMDVthe MPAA was distributing a "University anti-piracy toolkit" which used Xubuntu as its baseJun 16 11:03
DaemonMDVin violation of the GPLJun 16 11:03
DaemonMDVso Ubuntu ordered them to remove it from their siteJun 16 11:03
DaemonMDVwhich they didJun 16 11:03
IsBobI’m looking for some adviceJun 16 11:04
IsBobmy boss asked me (not directly of course) to make some public statements about MonoJun 16 11:04
IsBobwe’re in a deal with Microsoft currentlyJun 16 11:04
IsBobthe idea is to help a client migrate from Mono to pure .NETJun 16 11:05
IsBoband well, they found the ongoing fuss about Mono is not helping our company’s imageJun 16 11:05
IsBobthe fact is, I'm not comfortable with doing such thingsJun 16 11:06
schestowitzHi, IsBob Jun 16 11:06
schestowitzWhat advice do you need?Jun 16 11:07
schestowitzAnd how do I know that you're not pulling our leg?Jun 16 11:07
IsBobhuh?Jun 16 11:07
schestowitzWe've been trolled a lot recentlyJun 16 11:07
IsBobMy problem is, I'm in an untenable position nowJun 16 11:07
schestowitzSo I am being cautiousJun 16 11:07
schestowitzA company using Mono does not have a problemJun 16 11:08
IsBobI've made some public statements about Mono and how Microsoft intends to use itJun 16 11:08
schestowitzNot in the sense of public imageJun 16 11:08
schestowitzThe issue is with packagers who want to force people to spread itJun 16 11:08
schestowitzNot with usersJun 16 11:08
IsBoband now, either I have to rescind them, or I risk being in a very bad position with my managementJun 16 11:08
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schestowitzMicrosoft spreads its APIJun 16 11:09
schestowitzMono is good for MicrosoftJun 16 11:09
schestowitzFor more than one reasonJun 16 11:09
IsBobI know all of that, I've seen it from the insideJun 16 11:09
schestowitzit is preferable to use Java, Python, Perl, CGI, etc.Jun 16 11:09
schestowitzDepending on the area of useJun 16 11:09
schestowitzMono is about monocultureJun 16 11:09
schestowitzMaking all enterprise do it the One Microsoft WayJun 16 11:10
schestowitzc#, AD, VS, XAML, erc.Jun 16 11:10
schestowitz*etcJun 16 11:10
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schestowitzHi, oiaohm Jun 16 11:12
IsBobschestowitz: I've tried to explain that to my management; we used to have our clients work on free software, and now we're stuck in a deal where we're making them migrate awayJun 16 11:14
oiaohmHi schestowitzJun 16 11:15
schestowitzIsBob: how deep is this dependency on Mono?Jun 16 11:16
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schestowitzIf it's some C# code, then you can still port to JavaJun 16 11:17
schestowitzOracle is very committed to JavaJun 16 11:17
schestowitzIt's one of the main reasons for oracle buying SUN. I read last year that Ellison wanted to rip .NET apartJun 16 11:17
IsBobthere are 500 kloc already, it's way too late to migrate to another languageJun 16 11:18
schestowitzOracle is about as big as Microsoft and its market cap is not muchly shy. In fact, Oracle just deliberately spends a lot less on marketing...Jun 16 11:18
IsBobbut anyway, that's not my problem right nowJun 16 11:18
schestowitzIsBob: what's running it? Mono?Jun 16 11:19
schestowitzMono is a ramp for VS+.NET adoptionJun 16 11:19
schestowitzMono too slow?Jun 16 11:19
schestowitzMigrate to .NETJun 16 11:19
schestowitzLike free supperJun 16 11:19
IsBobcurrently Mono, and we're migrating to .Net yesJun 16 11:19
schestowitzOr trial versionwareJun 16 11:19
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schestowitzOracle might do something similar with mysqlJun 16 11:19
IsBobmy problem is about my management wanting me to do public statements I disagree withJun 16 11:20
schestowitzWhy migrate to .NET? I'm curious.Jun 16 11:20
oiaohmIsBob: remember this year websites that can run ofline is coming.Jun 16 11:20
IsBobI'm not sure why, since M$ made a deal with our client they've been pretty elusive about thatJun 16 11:21
oiaohmI am looking at it for a lot of client side work internal.  OS netural and will need nothering more than a Upto date webbrowser installed.Jun 16 11:21
IsBobone of my co-workers suspects they paid a big trip to Hawaii for some of the managers of our clientJun 16 11:21
schestowitzIsBob: so you think they might come to them and say "look, you're using our IP and all, so either you pay or move to .NET?"Jun 16 11:21
schestowitzIsBob: yes, Microsoft gifts peopleJun 16 11:22
schestowitzIt's a form of bribeJun 16 11:22
IsBobclearlyJun 16 11:22
schestowitzCommon. Many examples in MS'c aseJun 16 11:22
schestowitz*MS'sJun 16 11:22
IsBobI don't think they might do it, i think they already didJun 16 11:22
schestowitzMono is a rampJun 16 11:22
IsBobassorted with a nice "gift"Jun 16 11:22
oiaohmYou are aware as of yet mono does not work on arm and mips.Jun 16 11:22
schestowitzhad they used Java, migration would be complicatedJun 16 11:22
schestowitzBut this is EEE - embrace, extend...Jun 16 11:23
oiaohmSo clients are being locked out of furture more power effective client options IsBobJun 16 11:23
oiaohmThere are technical issues with mono.Jun 16 11:23
oiaohmThat can be targetted avoiding the complete IP issue.Jun 16 11:24
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DaemonMDVhttp://www.macworld.com/article/137964/2009/01/itunesplus.htmlJun 16 11:24
DaemonMDVThe guy buys 2,419 DRM'd 129k tracksJun 16 11:25
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IsBobmy N+2 ordered a complete blackout about what happened, and we're strongly "encouraged" to publish things that will increase Mono's acceptanceJun 16 11:25
DaemonMDVthen complains that he was cheated when Apple wants more money to upgrade him to what he should have had in the first placeJun 16 11:25
DaemonMDV(256k no DRM)Jun 16 11:25
schestowitzIsBob: encouraged by whom?Jun 16 11:25
schestowitzNovell? Microsoft?Jun 16 11:26
IsBobby our managementJun 16 11:26
DaemonMDVdear god, if he has $2500 to spend on iTunes tracks, you'd think 30 cents apiece would be easy to fork overJun 16 11:26
DaemonMDV:PJun 16 11:26
IsBobnot sure who's behindJun 16 11:26
IsBobof course we already have a big contract with NovellJun 16 11:26
schestowitzIt's the same with MS/Novell cotnractsJun 16 11:26
schestowitzI know cause I was toldJun 16 11:26
IsBoband they probably don't want to have to renegociate itJun 16 11:26
schestowitzThey go to clients...Jun 16 11:26
splosionbe a whistleblower. this is the sort of thing wikileaks was invented forJun 16 11:26
schestowitzAnd they tell them to put "IP" in the press releasesJun 16 11:26
schestowitzAs in, we'll sell you SUSE coupons at a discount is you publicly promote theseJun 16 11:27
DaemonMDVyeah, of course you will no doubt be fired if they figure out it was youJun 16 11:27
schestowitzI.e. promote 'Linux tax' (MS patentsJun 16 11:27
IsBobsplosion: I'm pretty sure I could be identified very quickly if anything leaksJun 16 11:27
schestowitzFor a bribeJun 16 11:27
DaemonMDV(goes without saying)Jun 16 11:27
IsBobI already made some statements against Mono and M$ in the pastJun 16 11:27
oiaohmDoes not matter really IsBob.  IBM is gearing up to go after the Small business market with Linux.Jun 16 11:27
schestowitzsplosion: +1Jun 16 11:27
splosionIsBob: bummerJun 16 11:27
DaemonMDVEasy URPMI is still not back upJun 16 11:28
DaemonMDVoddJun 16 11:28
oiaohmBasically your bosses should be asking who is going to win.   IBM and Orcale or MS.Jun 16 11:28
DaemonMDVbut shows how much people depend on less than legal stuffJun 16 11:28
DaemonMDVfrankly it kind of sickens me that Vorbis is free and hardly anything uses itJun 16 11:29
schestowitzSo basically, Microsoft lets Linux embrace .NETJun 16 11:29
schestowitzThen it can start shouting "IP"  and "thieves" and offer .NET (Windows only)Jun 16 11:29
schestowitzIt's so predictableJun 16 11:29
oiaohmBoth Orcale and IBM have cards in play schestowitz.Jun 16 11:29
oiaohmAs with all battles there are some wins and some losses.Jun 16 11:30
DaemonMDVI found out this Sansa thing is a PlaysForSure deviceJun 16 11:30
DaemonMDVprobably why it's so unfriendly with non-Microsoft media players trying to sync itJun 16 11:30
oiaohmIn the scale of importance a few wins here and there for .net are not going to help MS long term.Jun 16 11:30
IsBobschestowitz: so I will probably have to make public statements about Mono soonJun 16 11:31
IsBoband I wonder how many of the similar statements we've seen recently have been made by people in the same situationJun 16 11:31
oiaohmCan you still cover emerging techs IsBobJun 16 11:31
oiaohmlike vala from gnome and state of samba.Jun 16 11:31
schestowitzIsBob: bought opinionsJun 16 11:32
schestowitzMicrosoft does lots of itJun 16 11:32
schestowitzE.g. Tesco example from last week in BNJun 16 11:32
schestowitzASUS' fake "Windows is better"Jun 16 11:32
schestowitz"vendor recommends Vista" (Microsoft bribes for this too)Jun 16 11:32
oiaohmCreativity the say not to say anything bad against mono.   There is nothing stopping talking about the competing techs.Jun 16 11:32
DaemonMDVof course it is, you know just what to expect out of itJun 16 11:32
DaemonMDV*cough*Jun 16 11:32
schestowitz"We're interested in IP peace of mind" (not exact quote)Jun 16 11:32
schestowitzBut I never expected better from a company of thugsJun 16 11:33
schestowitzBribing people to utters marketing liesJun 16 11:33
IsBobI wonder whether similar things are happening at Canonical, given their recent movesJun 16 11:33
schestowitzAnd later they point to it..Jun 16 11:33
schestowitzAnd say...Jun 16 11:33
DaemonMDVschestowitz: According to Alexa's site rank, almost every Linux-related site is going upJun 16 11:33
schestowitz"Look, Dell recommends Vista"Jun 16 11:33
DaemonMDVbut Microsoft.com has gone down over 5%Jun 16 11:33
schestowitzand "HP recommends Vista"Jun 16 11:33
DaemonMDVin this quarterJun 16 11:33
schestowitzAnd "everyone loves Mono"Jun 16 11:34
DaemonMDVdespite all the Windows 7 blitzJun 16 11:34
schestowitz"Lyons and Enderle and Didio say that SCO is going to win the trial"Jun 16 11:34
schestowitzDon't get me started on the Vista7 slogJun 16 11:34
schestowitzThey bribe bloggersJun 16 11:34
schestowitzThey bribe journalistsJun 16 11:34
DaemonMDVit still dwarfs any Linux distro's website hitsJun 16 11:34
schestowitzAnd they attack those who say the truth Jun 16 11:34
DaemonMDVbut it is on the way downJun 16 11:34
oiaohmAre those hits counting windows update DaemonMDVJun 16 11:35
schestowitzIt plays dirttyJun 16 11:35
schestowitz[on its way down]Jun 16 11:35
DaemonMDVwell, that's not good for them, that their site is getting less popular despite so much advertisingJun 16 11:35
DaemonMDVnoJun 16 11:35
DaemonMDVonly browsersJun 16 11:35
DaemonMDVMicrosoft.com is the 18th most trafficked site in the United StatesJun 16 11:36
IsBobit pains me to see all of that because I'm exactly in the same situation, with hands tiedJun 16 11:36
DaemonMDVUbuntu was like 2400-somethingJun 16 11:36
schestowitzWindows Update is Akamai (Linux)Jun 16 11:36
IsBobI wonder what we can do to stop people from using that Mono crapJun 16 11:36
schestowitzDaemonMDV: nopeJun 16 11:36
schestowitzAlexa is no gold standardJun 16 11:36
oiaohmPeople finding out information on patches from windows update show up as hits DaemonMDV if it covering technet.Jun 16 11:36
schestowitzIt's stupid to even make it believableJun 16 11:36
schestowitzIsBob: join the fightJun 16 11:36
DaemonMDVtechnet is a different domainJun 16 11:36
schestowitzExpose what you canJun 16 11:37
schestowitzIt's possible to do bothJun 16 11:37
schestowitzDo the job and leaking the truthJun 16 11:37
schestowitzMany things in BN are based on whistle blowersJun 16 11:37
oiaohmJust had to ask some stats sites group them DaemonMDV.Jun 16 11:37
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oiaohmIsBob: when you are forbin to talk about something always ask what you are not forbin to talk about.Jun 16 11:37
oiaohmsometimes the not forbin can block what you are forbin to talk about.Jun 16 11:38
schestowitzForbidden = "we are doing something bad"Jun 16 11:38
schestowitzOr "don't ask"Jun 16 11:38
schestowitzHonest people work openlyJun 16 11:38
schestowitzLike here in BNJun 16 11:38
schestowitzWe don't do PMsJun 16 11:39
schestowitzAnd some people still try to trip us up this wayJun 16 11:39
oiaohmI have had to work under all sorts of different conditions.Jun 16 11:39
DaemonMDVhttp://www.crunchgear.com/2009/06/15/the-%E2%80%98anti-stab%E2%80%99-knife-that-works-just-fine-in-the-kitchen-but-cant-kill-a-man/Jun 16 11:40
oiaohmLot of times taking a positive line in a different direction is simpler than dispute and still can be long term effective.Jun 16 11:40
DaemonMDVAlso, the comments on the Times Web site are truly disheartening: “This invention is stupid die die die.” Calm down, sirs.Jun 16 11:40
DaemonMDVlmaoJun 16 11:40
oiaohmGod that knife is useless.Jun 16 11:41
oiaohmSlash stab method would still work perfectly with it.Jun 16 11:41
DaemonMDVwell, it was invented in Sweden to be sold in the UKJun 16 11:43
DaemonMDVcan't really go too hard on itJun 16 11:43
oiaohmBesides I do use the point of knife when cooking at times.Jun 16 11:43
DaemonMDV:)Jun 16 11:43
DaemonMDVwell, if I bought the knife, why would I have bought it?Jun 16 11:44
DaemonMDVso *I* can't stab anyone?Jun 16 11:44
schestowitzPeople will DIY their knivesJun 16 11:44
schestowitzWhat a stupid ideaJun 16 11:44
DaemonMDVMaybe I'll just make up my own damned mind whether I want to stab someoneJun 16 11:44
DaemonMDVhehJun 16 11:44
schestowitzMaybe they should also make hands that work only in the kitchenJun 16 11:44
schestowitzAnd ban metalJun 16 11:44
schestowitzOr...Jun 16 11:44
schestowitz"Honey, will you please come to the kitchen?"Jun 16 11:45
DaemonMDVwell get this, you buy them, then get rid of your old knivesJun 16 11:45
DaemonMDVthen someone breaks into your houseJun 16 11:45
schestowitzThey relocate the crimeJun 16 11:45
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DaemonMDVand you wish you had a knife to protect yourself withJun 16 11:45
Np237heyaJun 16 11:45
schestowitzGood luck going to people's house confiscating all the old utensilsJun 16 11:45
schestowitzNp237: hey, what's up?Jun 16 11:45
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Np237I’d like to thank you all peopleJun 16 11:45
oiaohmThere is such thing as a true knife that is 100 percent useless for stabing and works great.  It has two handles and a curved blade that you rock to cut through stuff.Jun 16 11:46
DaemonMDVwell, someone would be fairly suicidal to break into my homeJun 16 11:46
DaemonMDVI'll just shoot them first then ask que.....on second thoughtJun 16 11:46
DaemonMDVjust the shooting, pretty muchJun 16 11:46
DaemonMDV:DJun 16 11:46
Np237I think it’s people originating from your site who filled my blog with really entertaining commentsJun 16 11:46
Np237I had one of the fun times of my lifeJun 16 11:46
DaemonMDVreally? I get pissed off Microsoft, Apple, and Ubuntu fanboysJun 16 11:47
schestowitzNp237: which blog?Jun 16 11:47
DaemonMDVwho don't seem to understand I have a delete buttonJun 16 11:47
schestowitzAnd I can't be held responsible for what readers sayJun 16 11:47
Np237schestowitz: http://np237.livejournal.com/Jun 16 11:48
schestowitzThere are some trolls out there who give us a bad nameJun 16 11:48
oiaohmhttp://www.northcoastknives.com/Ulu-Done.jpg  << This kind of knife  DaemonMDV.  If you want to use a knife that cannot stab you use one of these.Jun 16 11:48
Np237schestowitz: rrrright, and you don’t encourage themJun 16 11:48
DaemonMDVMono isn't dead, they pop out some horrible new crapplet every now and then to show you they haven't started caringJun 16 11:49
DaemonMDVand then every distro decides to integrate itJun 16 11:49
DaemonMDV:)Jun 16 11:49
*DaemonMDV wishes they'd stop while GNOME can still operateJun 16 11:49
schestowitzNp237: no.Jun 16 11:49
schestowitzI don't.Jun 16 11:49
schestowitzNot trollsJun 16 11:49
Np237schestowitz: I think Lefty made it clear that you appreciate this kind of behavior as long as it’s not directly linked to your siteJun 16 11:49
schestowitztacone is not a troll for exampleJun 16 11:49
schestowitzoiaohm isn't, eitherJun 16 11:50
DaemonMDVbetween Beagle and Tomboy, you're using 100 megs of RAM to take notes and do search indexesJun 16 11:50
schestowitzBut there are some crazy onesJun 16 11:50
Np237but anyway, I don’t care, it was so much fun to see all of those losersJun 16 11:50
DaemonMDVwhat a crock of shitJun 16 11:50
schestowitzLike those with death wishes and cursingJun 16 11:50
schestowitzNothing to do with usJun 16 11:50
schestowitzGiving us just a bad nameJun 16 11:50
schestowitzRotten applesJun 16 11:50
Np237like OMGWTF you must work for Micro$hit for adding tomboy to your distribution !!!!1!Jun 16 11:50
schestowitzNp237: Mono criticismJun 16 11:50
DaemonMDVit takes more RAM to load those two Mono crapplets than to run some operating systemsJun 16 11:50
schestowitzI don't mind mono criticismJun 16 11:51
schestowitzBut I don't want to be associated with the zealotsJun 16 11:51
oiaohmIP grounds on Mono are annoying.Jun 16 11:51
schestowitzI mean, the ones that start some Jihad and personal abuseJun 16 11:51
schestowitzGroklaw had similar issuesJun 16 11:51
Np237schestowitz: “I liked what you do, but try to distance yourself from the site to give it credibility.” Aren’t those words from you?Jun 16 11:51
oiaohmTechnical grounds that they try to claim advantage on with mono is stupid.Jun 16 11:51
schestowitzPeople who misrepresent the siteJun 16 11:51
DaemonMDVMono apps are just wickedly insidious little RAM guzzlersJun 16 11:51
schestowitzAlbeit they usually mean well in the sense that they know a threat to LinuxJun 16 11:51
schestowitzIt's how they go about which spoil the brothJun 16 11:52
Np237schestowitz: no, they ARE the threat to LinuxJun 16 11:52
schestowitzWindows has that kind of trolls tooJun 16 11:52
oiaohmNothing is really a long term threat to Linux Np237Jun 16 11:52
schestowitzEdgy mentalitiesJun 16 11:52
Np237toxic behavior in the community is the danger for the communityJun 16 11:52
schestowitzMac tooJun 16 11:52
oiaohmIts out lived all forms of toxic behavior.Jun 16 11:52
schestowitzAnd then there's ones like Maureen OGaraJun 16 11:52
schestowitzEvery side has a share of village idiotsJun 16 11:52
oiaohmhardware lock out toxic behavior is disappearing.Jun 16 11:53
schestowitzAnd to attack those idiots is to make inner warsJun 16 11:53
Np237and you’re the ones spreading this toxic behavior by spitting on best-of-breed free softwareJun 16 11:53
schestowitzAnd I don't feel like starting to attack the crazies among usJun 16 11:53
oiaohmName 1 mono application that is best of breed Np237Jun 16 11:53
schestowitzNp237: read what we write in postsJun 16 11:53
oiaohmIts like trying to name 1 vb application that is best of breed.Jun 16 11:53
Np237schestowitz: I know the bullshit you write in postsJun 16 11:53
schestowitzNot some anonymous trolls who use the comments (no censorship) to rant and spread hateJun 16 11:54
Np237oiaohm: obviously you don’t know what you’re talking aboutJun 16 11:54
schestowitzNp237: thanks but it's no BSJun 16 11:54
oiaohmI do Np237Jun 16 11:54
oiaohmTry to name 1 Np237Jun 16 11:54
schestowitzIf you find factual mistakes, pls do point them outJun 16 11:54
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Omar871LOL! I was reading this article lately, but I just found out it's for you Roy! :D http://itmanagement.earthweb.com/osrc/article.php/3744796Jun 16 11:54
schestowitzNp237: there will always be some low-lives out thereJun 16 11:54
oiaohmMore often that not I can point you to a better program that does the same thing on less ram Np237Jun 16 11:54
schestowitzEven more as Linux growsJun 16 11:54
Np237oiaohm: you’re comparing one of the worst languages ever imagined to a multi-language *framework*Jun 16 11:54
schestowitzCope with itJun 16 11:54
schestowitzI never spoke to the Fink guyJun 16 11:55
schestowitzHe commented in BNJun 16 11:55
schestowitzI seem to have replied to him in the commentsJun 16 11:55
Np237schestowitz: and he faked the PGP signature too?Jun 16 11:55
schestowitzNot even knowing who he wasJun 16 11:55
schestowitzSomeone showed me he threatened violenceJun 16 11:55
Np237oiaohm: like gnote? LOLJun 16 11:55
oiaohm.net is from the blood line of VB it has improved but not enough.Jun 16 11:55
schestowitzNp237: who said there wa s afakeJun 16 11:55
splosionfink was like some kind of comedy characterJun 16 11:55
schestowitzIt was an out-of-context messageJun 16 11:55
schestowitzAnd had I been in touch with him -- which I wasn't -- why would he try to accuse me of things?Jun 16 11:56
schestowitzYou want to see what he wrote to David after threatening him?Jun 16 11:56
schestowitzLet me get itJun 16 11:56
Np237schestowitz: I think it would be fun if you explained the context in which you disapproved of him yet said “I liked what you do”Jun 16 11:56
oiaohmgnote is poor note management application compared to what is in KDE.  basket.Jun 16 11:56
schestowitzIt's something like "please don't sue me"Jun 16 11:56
schestowitzAnd then the coward told David to just go after meJun 16 11:56
schestowitzBecause he's a nutter, that's whyJun 16 11:57
schestowitzJust flinging crap and hoping the whole world will take his crap and leave him alone.Jun 16 11:57
oiaohmMost .net applications exist for the simple fact Distribution developers are not prepaid to mix KDE and Gnome runtime to deliveer the true best of breed applications Np237Jun 16 11:57
schestowitzAnd it's a waste of time talking about thisJun 16 11:57
Np237oiaohm: oh, sure. kdebetternomonocrapnovellsucksJun 16 11:57
schestowitzI've wasted enough time because of that prick.Jun 16 11:57
oiaohmHave you ever used basket Np237Jun 16 11:57
schestowitzLike babysitter jobJun 16 11:57
schestowitzFor people who READ BNJun 16 11:58
Np237oiaohm: mixing KDE and GNOME applications is a completely stupid thing to doJun 16 11:58
Np237their philosophy is so fundamentally differentJun 16 11:58
oiaohmIts not Np237Jun 16 11:58
Np237it would look like Windoze in the endJun 16 11:58
Np237with completely different-looking applications, conflicting philosophiesJun 16 11:58
schestowitzNp237: “I liked what you do”= criticise MonoJun 16 11:58
schestowitzDavid knows itJun 16 11:58
schestowitzBut he deliberate puts it out of context and all.Jun 16 11:58
Np237we try to provide users a CONSISTENT experienceJun 16 11:58
oiaohmgtk-qt engine back end makes gtk applications look qt.Jun 16 11:58
Np237oiaohm: it’s not a question of looksJun 16 11:59
oiaohmSo there is no theme problom.Jun 16 11:59
Np237bwahahahaJun 16 11:59
schestowitzNp237: gnote is gtk. ConsistentJun 16 11:59
Np237it has to be a jokeJun 16 11:59
oiaohmIt also replaces the default dialogs.Jun 16 11:59
schestowitzWhy not make it consistent by rewriting all of gnome in mono?Jun 16 11:59
Np237schestowitz: gnote is a piece of shit written by a hateful developer alone, who will stop maintaining it in 3 monthsJun 16 11:59
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schestowitzMiguel would love thatJun 16 11:59
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oiaohmGnome has never bothered working working on intergration.Jun 16 11:59
oiaohmKDE guys did.Jun 16 11:59
trmancohttps://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=418866Jun 16 11:59
Np237schestowitz: why would we replace working C applications with C# ones?Jun 16 11:59
schestowitzbrbJun 16 12:00
Np237oiaohm: sure, kdebetternomonocrapnovellsucksJun 16 12:00
trmancololJun 16 12:00
oiaohmYou are badly wrong best of breed applications exist in all differnet places.Jun 16 12:00
oiaohmthere are some best of breed in gnome.Jun 16 12:00
oiaohmJust does not happen to be any of the .net applications.Jun 16 12:01
Np237oiaohm: you seem to misunderstand somethingJun 16 12:01
splosionAdding a bunch of Mono dependencies to a stupid little note-taking app is idioticJun 16 12:01
Np237oiaohm: a desktop environment is not just a set of applicationsJun 16 12:01
Np237splosion: you reason backwardsJun 16 12:01
oiaohmNp237: desktop environment is just that.Jun 16 12:01
Np237splosion: the best note-taking app we have that integrates with GNOME happens to be written in C#Jun 16 12:02
oiaohmOnly reason for major differences in look is a failure to agree on a common standared for them.Jun 16 12:02
Np237splosion: and it’s one of the languages supported by GNOMEJun 16 12:02
oiaohmtheming.Jun 16 12:02
Np237like C, C++, Python, Perl, JavaJun 16 12:02
oiaohmThere is no reason why gnome and kde could not merge.Jun 16 12:02
Np237it’s just that nobody ever provided a good app in Perl or Java…Jun 16 12:02
oiaohmOther than simple pig headedness.Jun 16 12:02
Np237oiaohm: no it’s not theming, you obviously have absolutely no idea of what you’re talking aboutJun 16 12:03
splosionSo what? That level of complexity for a note-taking app is unnecessaryJun 16 12:03
oiaohmTheming including common dialogs.Jun 16 12:03
Np237oiaohm: I wouldn’t expect less from someone who just whines all day long at boycottnovell.com and never develops anythingJun 16 12:03
oiaohmLike the common print dialog from LSB.Jun 16 12:03
Np237splosion: which complexity?Jun 16 12:03
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oiaohmThere is no reason why they cannot merge Np237Jun 16 12:03
Np237splosion: for users it’s the sameJun 16 12:03
oiaohmJust take users to stop picking gnome or kde and say stuff it.Jun 16 12:04
Np237oiaohm: document yourself before making such idiotic statementsJun 16 12:04
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oiaohmI remember when kde and gnome did not even have shared menus.Jun 16 12:04
oiaohmThe merge of them has been under way for years.Jun 16 12:04
Np237sharing menus is one of the incredibly stupid things that were doneJun 16 12:04
oiaohmLOLJun 16 12:05
Np237it took months to clean them upJun 16 12:05
splosionThe following extra packages will be installed:   libart2.24-cil libgconf2.24-cil libglade2.0-cil libglib2.0-cil   libgmime2.2a-cil libgnome-vfs2.24-cil libgnome2.24-cil libgnomepanel2.24-cil   libgtk2.0-cil libmono-addins-gui0.2-cil libmono-addins0.2-cil   libmono-cairo2.0-cil libmono-corlib2.0-cil libmono-i18n2.0-cil   libmono-posix2.0-cil libmono-security2Jun 16 12:05
splosionand so onJun 16 12:05
oiaohmAnd why was sharing of menus done Np237Jun 16 12:05
Np237oiaohm: for 3rd party applicationsJun 16 12:05
oiaohmFor the simple fact neither kde or gnome have all the best of breed applications.Jun 16 12:05
Np237oiaohm: it doesn’t bring anything to KDE or GNOME themselvesJun 16 12:05
Np237oiaohm: apart from aving tons of KDE config applets in the GNOME configuration menuJun 16 12:06
Np237making the whole user interface completely inconsistentJun 16 12:06
oiaohmThat is simple case of pig headness.  Niether KDE and Gnome work openly with each other.Jun 16 12:06
Np237splosion: same if you install a C++ application, it will bring tons of C++ libsJun 16 12:07
Np237splosion: for a user it’s the same. Install app, app worksJun 16 12:07
oiaohmNp237: funny part C++ overwraped c lib are basically headers Np237Jun 16 12:08
oiaohmc# requires larger interface libs.Jun 16 12:08
oiaohmReason why set of gnome developers started work on vala due lots of mono excess wieght even when compared to c++Jun 16 12:09
Np237Package: libgtkmm-2.4-1c2aJun 16 12:09
Np237Installed-Size: 5216Jun 16 12:09
Np237Package: libgtk2.0-cilJun 16 12:09
Np237Installed-Size: 4304Jun 16 12:09
Np237LOLJun 16 12:09
oiaohmFunny messure memory usage.Jun 16 12:10
Np237and the C++ package doesn’t include the development libraries and headersJun 16 12:10
oiaohmDiskspace the C++ package is large.Jun 16 12:10
oiaohmMemory usage the cil is.Jun 16 12:10
Np237yeah, Python uses a lot of RAM tooJun 16 12:10
oiaohmEven diskspace the cil is heavier if you are using cache of converion to native.Jun 16 12:10
Np237but it brings a lot of advantagesJun 16 12:10
oiaohmSorry.Jun 16 12:11
oiaohmPython well writen python applications are lighter than mono.Jun 16 12:11
Np237bwaahahahahahahaaaaaJun 16 12:11
oiaohmPython has clean binding to c++Jun 16 12:11
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oiaohmBlender and other engines depend on python.Jun 16 12:12
oiaohmThe python bindings are lot lighter than mono's.Jun 16 12:12
oiaohmEven perls is.Jun 16 12:12
oiaohmMono was not designed it intergrate well back to native libraries.Jun 16 12:13
Np237anyway, you guys are incredibly funnyJun 16 12:13
trmancohttp://unite.opera.com/Jun 16 12:13
Np237you don’t do anything for free software except spitting on some of itJun 16 12:13
Np237yet you tell developers what they should doJun 16 12:13
oiaohmLOLJun 16 12:13
Np237some developers happen to prefer C#, that’s allJun 16 12:14
Np237get over itJun 16 12:14
mib_aqxu6anp237 Since when is raising a concern telling someone what to do?Jun 16 12:14
oiaohmSome people pref VB.Jun 16 12:14
oiaohmDoes not mean we have to approve of the selection Np237.Jun 16 12:14
Np237mib_aqxu6a: stop the shit, your only rhetoric is OMG MONO SUXXXXXXXX IT’S MICRO$HITJun 16 12:15
mib_aqxu6aI still think no censorship is best in the long runJun 16 12:15
mib_aqxu6aeven for trollsJun 16 12:15
oiaohmNp237: what annoys me most is people like you who always point at diskspace.Jun 16 12:16
Np237oiaohm: I don’t fscking care about diskspaceJun 16 12:16
oiaohmDiskspace is the simplest factor to deal with.Jun 16 12:16
splosionVala is on the way, and a few folk are attempting to get C# functionality sans Mono with gcc tools and whatnot. should be interesting to see what happens thereJun 16 12:16
Np237oiaohm: you were the one to raise thisJun 16 12:16
oiaohmI said it was heavier.Jun 16 12:16
oiaohmI did not say it was disk.Jun 16 12:16
Np237<oiaohm> c# requires larger interface libs.Jun 16 12:16
oiaohmLarger in ram.Jun 16 12:17
Np237you said that, and it is wrongJun 16 12:17
oiaohmYou presumed disk.Jun 16 12:17
mib_aqxu6aassumedJun 16 12:17
Np237wow, I have to admit something about youJun 16 12:18
Np237you’re hell of a good trollerJun 16 12:18
Np237is it at BN that you learn to do that?Jun 16 12:18
oiaohmYou would have known it if you had seen me comment on mono before Np237Jun 16 12:18
oiaohmMy issue with mono has always been its memory usage.Jun 16 12:19
oiaohmAnd its lack of effectiveness in a lot of places.Jun 16 12:19
Np237then you should despise Python moreJun 16 12:19
Np237it uses more RAM for the same jobJun 16 12:19
Np237my technical concern with mono would be startup time, not memory usageJun 16 12:19
oiaohmStartup time is lack of effectiveness in lot of areas.Jun 16 12:20
Np237it’s lack of effectiveness in initializing the VMJun 16 12:21
Np237I’ve seen worse issues…Jun 16 12:21
oiaohmWhy use a VM.Jun 16 12:21
Np237…Jun 16 12:21
oiaohmMS form uses a form of AOT that first run is slow secound run is fast because its cached.Jun 16 12:21
Np237oiaohm: I hope you’re just as prone as criticizing Perl and Python, thenJun 16 12:22
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Np237they do the *exact* same thingJun 16 12:22
Np237actually there’s no technical difference between a VM and an interpreterJun 16 12:23
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oiaohmBetter integration with native libs can reduce you overheads.   Python one of the side projects I support has a converter to C++ underdevelopment.Jun 16 12:24
oiaohmPerl has a convert to c for a reason.Jun 16 12:24
oiaohmI know of no OS kernel that really has the means intergrate with a jit to allow memory releases of on fly generated code in case of memory shortage.  If groups want to stick the the jit path they really need to address this.Jun 16 12:27
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oiaohmSimple fact Np237 Linux kernel was design to mange the native binaries it runs well.   MS use of AOT in there .net engine allows the Windows kernel to better manage the .net applications it runs.Jun 16 12:30
Np237you know that this problem is already solved in the simplest wayJun 16 12:31
Np237faster CPUs, more RAM, more swapJun 16 12:31
oiaohmLOLJun 16 12:31
oiaohmWhere have you been.Jun 16 12:31
oiaohmLow end devices are basically 8 year old tech Np237Jun 16 12:32
oiaohmThe world has changed you can no longer depend on that Np237Jun 16 12:33
oiaohmCorrecting design of mono and java can deal with problem at the cost of diskspace.  Not ideal.   If you don't want to cost diskspace altering kernel is the only way.Jun 16 12:34
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oiaohmBesides vala from gnome is design to use a syntax very close to C# yet it requires no interface runtime.  It uses the standard C runtimes of gnome.Jun 16 12:38
splosionhttp://blog.ibeentoubuntu.com/2008/08/dont-like-mono-try-vala.htmlJun 16 12:43
splosion"Mono and C# have a lot of really cool applications right now: Tomboy, F-Spot, and Banshee. If these were forked and rewritten in the C#-like Vala, we could see greater performance and silence the anti-Mono crowd. Sounds like heaven, eh? OK, I can dream, can't I?"Jun 16 12:44
splosionthere you goJun 16 12:44
splosionshit, time for a physics exam. bummer!Jun 16 12:44
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kentmaoiaohm: mono would need to keep pace with MS's runtime.  Anyone with any gumption would surely recognise that if C# ever became popular, the first thing MS would do would be to have "hidden" APIs which only they know of, and ensure that apps ran "better on windows".Jun 16 12:58
oiaohmkentma I don't need to use that to pull mono apart.Jun 16 13:01
oiaohmMono techincally fall flat on it face without the ideas of hidden APIs.Jun 16 13:02
oiaohmJava has the same problems as .net.  Vala is one of the few things showing a true solution.Jun 16 13:03
MinceRdropping some napalm on redmond would be a true solution.Jun 16 13:05
oiaohmWhy do we need to do that.  They seam to be doing a good job of napalming themselves it would be a waste of good napalm.Jun 16 13:06
oiaohmhttp://vimeo.com/5137477  If you want to see a good example of using a scripting language to control a application interface.Jun 16 13:11
MinceRthey're doing it too slowly.Jun 16 13:12
MinceRdamage keeps being caused to everyone while they agonize.Jun 16 13:12
oiaohmArt of war MinceRJun 16 13:13
schestowitzI'll do some news links now...Jun 16 13:14
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] Case Study: The Harms of Mono < http://ping.fm/HpnIh >Jun 16 13:17
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[omar_s_hafez] IXWebhosting. Extremely poor Python support, and extremely poor information management too! http://preview.tinyurl.com/nvtza3Jun 16 13:17
Omar871schestowitz: Amazing how some shills out there turn the Mono debate into a personal issue between them and BN, while the whole FOSS community is concerned about it.Jun 16 13:19
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schestowitzOmar871: yes, it's a known strategyJun 16 13:21
schestowitzAssign the problem to one placeJun 16 13:21
schestowitzThen cr*p on that placeJun 16 13:21
Np237Omar871: no, only a minority of vocal people raise their imaginary concernsJun 16 13:21
schestowitzAnd pretend Mono opposers are killers, trolls, etc.Jun 16 13:21
schestowitzIt was done to daemonise others things like ODF, Linux...Jun 16 13:21
schestowitzLike the whole Reiser thingJun 16 13:21
schestowitzNp237: not trueJun 16 13:22
schestowitzLet me explainJun 16 13:22
schestowitzSome people in GNOME expressed concerns 5+ years agoJun 16 13:22
schestowitzGroklaw has been a critic for agesJun 16 13:22
schestowitzMonononoJun 16 13:22
schestowitzIt came from there, AFAIKJun 16 13:22
schestowitzThen there's discussion in mailing listsJun 16 13:22
schestowitzRMSJun 16 13:22
schestowitzAll that /before/ BN even existedJun 16 13:22
Np237and since there was nothing serious behind these concerns, the GNOME people moved onJun 16 13:22
schestowitzThen, the deal changed it for the worseJun 16 13:23
schestowitzMore Mono, patent covenants, SLJun 16 13:23
schestowitzNp237: maybe, but the Novell deal woke people upJun 16 13:23
schestowitzIt continues to show advancement of MS as a stdJun 16 13:23
schestowitzSee http://ping.fm/HpnIhJun 16 13:23
schestowitzit's from this morningJun 16 13:23
schestowitzit shows you Microsoft using Mono to migrate people away from LinuxJun 16 13:24
schestowitzNp237: the funniest thing to see is people who think I'm against FOSSJun 16 13:24
schestowitzIgnoring the very obvious. But that spiel comes from Mono folks typically.Jun 16 13:24
oiaohmNp237: I like that statement.  Then why is the vala project still alive.   Lot of the bothered gnome developers have taken the path.  Let it live for now.  Design something better to replace it for good.Jun 16 13:24
schestowitzDaemonise opposition, pretend the problem is then eliminatedJun 16 13:24
MinceRopposition &Jun 16 13:25
*MinceR has just daemonized the opposition.Jun 16 13:25
MinceR</stupidpun>Jun 16 13:25
Np237schestowitz: in the country where I live, the exact rhetoric you are using is very used by right-wing extremistsJun 16 13:26
Np237’cause you know, they are daemonised, so that proves they are rightJun 16 13:26
oiaohmLOlJun 16 13:27
MinceRNp237: hitler used the exact same characters you are using!Jun 16 13:27
oiaohmNp237:  you love using old troll arguements.Jun 16 13:27
Np237oiaohm: well, stop using so poor reasoning if you want serious discussionJun 16 13:28
oiaohmThe issue is not if we are deamonized.Jun 16 13:28
oiaohmIs there fact behind what we are saying.Jun 16 13:28
oiaohmLot of our annoyance is simple case of not being able to get straight answers out of the mono camp.Jun 16 13:29
oiaohmAlso getting answers when investaged are not backed up with fact from the mono camp as well.Jun 16 13:29
MinceRNp237: who is using poor reasoning again?Jun 16 13:29
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Np237MinceR: “OMG MICRO$HIT WANTS US TO DIE”Jun 16 13:30
oiaohmNo Np237Jun 16 13:30
MinceRNp237: well duh, ballmer said it's warJun 16 13:30
MinceRNp237: sometimes you might want to read a bit more than official m$ propagandaJun 16 13:30
oiaohmEven using Linux kernel do like knowing the patent status of different sections.Jun 16 13:31
MinceRtheir internal mail has confirmed some suspicions.Jun 16 13:31
oiaohmFor embeded work its useful information Np237.Jun 16 13:31
MinceRthen again, even their official propaganda tells a lotJun 16 13:31
MinceR"linux is a cancer" and stuff like thatJun 16 13:31
Np237so, you tell us to not use Mono because it violates patents from MicrosoftJun 16 13:31
EruaranhelloJun 16 13:32
Np237but we should use Linux although it violates patents from MicrosoftJun 16 13:32
Np237wowJun 16 13:32
MinceRNp237: linux doesn't violate patents from m$Jun 16 13:32
MinceRNp237: show us which patents it violates.Jun 16 13:32
MinceRNp237: protip: ballmer didn't show them, only claimed that there are such.Jun 16 13:32
Np237MinceR: show me which patents Mono violates themJun 16 13:32
MinceRthis should be suspicious to anyone but the most brainwashed m$ fanboy.Jun 16 13:32
MinceRNp237: someone will show you them, i don't have the list.Jun 16 13:33
oiaohmNp237: I will be simpler point me to a person who can answer the patent status of different parts of mono.Jun 16 13:33
Eruaranwinforms...Jun 16 13:33
oiaohmThis is our problem Np237 there is no one to answer the questions Np237Jun 16 13:34
EruaranIm with RMS on thisJun 16 13:34
Np237oiaohm: this is completely stupidJun 16 13:34
Np237oiaohm: this is the case for 99% of free software thenJun 16 13:34
Np237there are stupid software patents about *everything*Jun 16 13:34
EruaranAll large software projects inevitably violate some stupid patent somebody got that shouldn't haveJun 16 13:34
Np237geez, cursor blinking used to be patentedJun 16 13:34
EruaranBut that does not mean you should deliberately stick your head in the lions jawsJun 16 13:34
EruaranMono licensing is questionable at bestJun 16 13:35
Np237Moonlight licensing is questionableJun 16 13:35
Np237there is absolutely no question with Mono licensingJun 16 13:35
EruaranOh reallyJun 16 13:36
oiaohmThere is a difference in case of Linux kernel. If I want to know patent status from all code submiters ask on mailing list get answer if they have or have not patents in that area.  Np237Jun 16 13:36
EruaranIs that why nobody can get any answers to their questions ?Jun 16 13:36
Np237oiaohm: do you really think it is possible for them to know all patents that have been submitted in that area?Jun 16 13:36
oiaohmNovell and MS both work on joint projects with each other.   Asking MS directly they don't answer either.Jun 16 13:36
Np237Eruaran: nobody is forced to answer irrelevant or stupid questionsJun 16 13:36
EruaranIn other wordsJun 16 13:37
oiaohmSimple problem here people who designed the spec does not answer questionsJun 16 13:37
EruaranYou can't answer the questions people are answeringJun 16 13:37
EruaranSo instead you insult people dismissivelyJun 16 13:37
oiaohmAny other spec you are using.  Ask the designer if they have patent and were they answer.Jun 16 13:37
Np237Eruaran: no, I don’t fucking care of those questionsJun 16 13:37
EruaranObviouslyJun 16 13:37
Np237Eruaran: tell me why I should answer themJun 16 13:37
EruaranYou're the one pushing Mono hereJun 16 13:37
oiaohmNp237: our problem is simply lack of clear answers Np237Jun 16 13:38
Np237Eruaran: because otherwise a bunch of trolls will feed my blog with roflable comments?Jun 16 13:38
Np237oiaohm: who cares about your “problem”?Jun 16 13:38
oiaohmThere was a past problem with this called mp3.Jun 16 13:38
EruaranOn what terms can I license the use of "IP" that Microsoft will claim that exists in Mono implementations ?Jun 16 13:38
oiaohmOnce bitting twice shy.Jun 16 13:38
EruaranYou want to know who cares ?Jun 16 13:38
EruaranMy customers for a start.Jun 16 13:38
MinceRNp237: most free software wasn't aggressively pushed by m$Jun 16 13:38
MinceRNp237: mono is suspect at the very least.Jun 16 13:38
Np237MinceR: ROFLJun 16 13:38
oiaohmMP3 had a submrine patent on it.Jun 16 13:39
Np237MinceR: Mono is pushed aggressively by Microsoft?Jun 16 13:39
MinceRNp237: yes, via novellJun 16 13:39
EruaranguysJun 16 13:39
Np237MinceR: please, read what you wrote, it’s incredibly funnyJun 16 13:39
oiaohmOnce people started using it did patent holder apply patent aggressively.Jun 16 13:39
EruaranI had a long chat with a lawyer friend who is also a client of ours about MonoJun 16 13:39
MinceRNp237: or do you think that the novell/m$ patent fud deal is benign?Jun 16 13:39
EruaranShe spelled it out very simplyJun 16 13:39
Np237MinceR: it’s just the Novell lawyers covering up their assesJun 16 13:39
MinceRNp237: how much do you believe novell is independent from m$ currently?Jun 16 13:39
EruaranIf terms are unclear - its a trap.Jun 16 13:39
Np237MinceR: just like some companies gave money to the SCO trollsJun 16 13:39
oiaohmNp237: Simple fact track recode of mp3 as a standard tells us that a standard that is not open with patent status should not be trusted.Jun 16 13:40
MinceRNp237: covering from a threat that's very obviously a lie? at the cost of losing customers?Jun 16 13:40
MinceRNp237: a company that was supposed to be one of the leading linux distributors?Jun 16 13:40
Np237MinceR: which customers are you talking about?Jun 16 13:40
oiaohmDo we have to be idiots and not learn from history Np237?Jun 16 13:40
MinceRNp237: the customers of suseJun 16 13:40
Np237MinceR: do you think they give a shit of your opinion?Jun 16 13:40
Np237MinceR: do you think more than 0.01% of the SuSE users care of that?Jun 16 13:41
MinceRNp237: well, apparently suse had lost business so i'd say they agreedJun 16 13:41
oiaohmNp237: Should be desreguard the lesson of mp3 standards and patents?Jun 16 13:41
Np237oiaohm: certainly not. But we should fight software patents, not accept them as a threat.Jun 16 13:41
oiaohmGood then you should be against the .net standard.Jun 16 13:42
Np237oiaohm: by backing out Mono because of patent claims, you’re doing the game of IBM and MicrosoftJun 16 13:42
oiaohmBecause it has the same issue the mp3 standard had.Jun 16 13:42
MinceRNp237: and until we defeat sw patents, we should just gladly put ourselves at risk by accepting an obvious trap from m$/novell?Jun 16 13:42
MinceRthere's only one party that can possibly benefit from that.Jun 16 13:42
oiaohmFailure to block .net due to information around the standard being missing is only walking into another mp3 problem on a larger scale.Jun 16 13:43
Np237(actually you’re more doing the game of IBM, Microsoft has a very small patent folio compared to them)Jun 16 13:43
EruaranEvery line of code written to Microsoft 'standards' is a small victory for Microsoft.Jun 16 13:43
oiaohmSimple problem mono is not defendable if you learn from history Np237Jun 16 13:44
oiaohmMono is not defendable on design.Jun 16 13:44
oiaohmAll the mono support are go at is trying to create cloud of question marks to hide there problems.Jun 16 13:44
Np237geez, you live completely in your own worldJun 16 13:45
Np237well, at least it is consistentJun 16 13:45
MinceRyes, it's called "reality"Jun 16 13:45
EruaranWhat does anyone need Mono for ?Jun 16 13:46
Omar871Eruaran: Agreed.Jun 16 13:46
MinceRyes, it tends to have that advantage over the dream world m$ fanboys live in.Jun 16 13:46
Np237but in your world, everything that is said which is not in agreement with you is said by a Microsoft employeeJun 16 13:46
oiaohmIts called having a legal background in software acquirement Np237.Jun 16 13:46
Np237Eruaran: why do you care of people needing Mono?Jun 16 13:46
EruaranWho benefits from the promotion and proliferation of Mono ?Jun 16 13:46
Omar871Np237: Or a Fanboi.. Like you seem to be..Jun 16 13:46
Np237Eruaran: the fact *you* don’t need doesn’t tell anything for anyone elseJun 16 13:46
Np237HAHAHAHAHAHAHAAAAAAAAAAAAHAJun 16 13:47
EruaranWell ?Jun 16 13:47
Np237please don’t make me laugh out loud in my deskJun 16 13:47
MinceRNp237: protip: pretending you've won an argument doesn't automatically make it so.Jun 16 13:47
EruaranWho needs it ? Who benefits from it ?Jun 16 13:47
oiaohmYou don't make legal problems disappear by redirecting.Jun 16 13:47
Np237Eruaran: why do you care?Jun 16 13:47
EruaranI'm asking a questionJun 16 13:47
MinceRNp237: so that's the third time you've ignored that question.Jun 16 13:47
EruaranIf you want to push Mono then surely you can answer these questionsJun 16 13:48
Np237Eruaran: I don’t want to push MonoJun 16 13:48
Omar871Np237: Because he's part of the community, genius..Jun 16 13:48
Omar871Np237: Just like anyone else here.Jun 16 13:48
oiaohmSome of the redirects are down right stupid like saying com patents apply to open office.  If you do your homework UNO that people say is com predates com existing.Jun 16 13:48
EruaranIt sure looks like you doJun 16 13:48
Np237Omar871: oh right, so because he feels like a part of the “community”, it entitles him to have answers to any stupid question he might ask?Jun 16 13:49
Omar871Np237: Then stop friggin' defending it for God's sake..Jun 16 13:49
EruaranWhy are these questions 'stupid' ?Jun 16 13:49
MinceRNp237: you mean we should just accept what you say as The Only Truth and shouldn't ask questions? :>Jun 16 13:49
Np237Omar871: so there are only two camps, right?Jun 16 13:49
MinceRi guess that's how things work in the cult of m$Jun 16 13:49
Omar871Np237: So, every question that doesn't make sense to you, is stupid?Jun 16 13:49
Np237Omar871: one can be with you, or with the enemyJun 16 13:49
Np237Omar871: noJun 16 13:50
oiaohmNp237:  Do I not have a valid case against the use of mono?Jun 16 13:50
Np237Omar871: this question makes sense to me, and the sense is that the person asking it is stupidJun 16 13:50
MinceRNp237: no, one can also be confused or ignorant.Jun 16 13:50
Np237oiaohm: even if you had, you are not entitled to tell other people what they should doJun 16 13:51
EruaranIf I'm offering PC's pre-installed with Ubuntu to our customers and there is anything in there Microsoft can make an IP claim on, who do you think Microsoft will come after ?Jun 16 13:51
oiaohmIf I have a valid case you have no right to say I cannot express my case either Np237Jun 16 13:51
oiaohmThat is your problem answer question do I have a valid case Np237.Jun 16 13:51
Np237oiaohm: I don’t have to answer your questoinJun 16 13:51
Np237questionJun 16 13:51
Omar871Np237: Well, if it concerns the overall benefit of the whole community, then it's a MUST.Jun 16 13:52
oiaohmYou having be questioning our selections.Jun 16 13:52
Np237Omar871: the overall benefit of the community is to shut up its toxic elements like youJun 16 13:52
oiaohmIf you want to question expect to be questioned Np237.Jun 16 13:52
Np237not all people are able to take insults like I doJun 16 13:52
EruaranWhat insults ?'Jun 16 13:53
oiaohmAll I can guess is you would have to say yes to a valid case Np237.Jun 16 13:53
Omar871Np237: Just like driving a car. You are free to speed as much as you want if you are alone. But in the middle of a crowded city, you have no right to exceed the speed limit.Jun 16 13:53
oiaohmSo meaning you really don't have the right to tell us to shut up Np237.Jun 16 13:53
Np237oiaohm: you don’t have any valid case, you don’t have anything to sayJun 16 13:54
Np237the only thing you do is agitate red tissuesJun 16 13:54
Omar871Np237: And neither do you my friend.Jun 16 13:54
Np237Omar871: no, but I develop free softwareJun 16 13:54
Np237Omar871: and if I choose to base it on Mono, that’s my choiceJun 16 13:54
Np237not yoursJun 16 13:54
oiaohmProvide a valid case then you must be able to disprove submirne patents existing on .netJun 16 13:54
Np237oiaohm: that’s not how things workJun 16 13:55
Np237even legallyJun 16 13:55
Omar871Np237: Well, unless you're the only one developing Free Software, I fail to see how this is something to brag about.Jun 16 13:55
Np237oiaohm: you have to prove your patent is valid, not the oppositeJun 16 13:55
EruaranI'm sure Red Hat's lawyers treat the licensing and IP issues that surround Mono more seriously than you do.Jun 16 13:55
Np237Eruaran: yeah sure, RH treat them seriously while Novell does notJun 16 13:55
Np237oh wait…Jun 16 13:55
oiaohmYou must disprove submirne patent existance by the design of the standard of .net to prove the lesson of mp3 should not apply.Jun 16 13:55
Omar871Np237: Yes, it's not our choice, but when the users start getting hurt out of Mono, then it's not yours either.Jun 16 13:56
EruaranAnd we treat them seriously as wellJun 16 13:56
Np237is it just because the RH decision was freetard-proof?Jun 16 13:56
oiaohmThe you can prove that Np237 or you cannot.Jun 16 13:56
EruaranThe company I work for is an OEMJun 16 13:56
Np237Omar871: users are not forced to use our softwareJun 16 13:56
Np237Omar871: if you want software without Mono, GO FUCKING DEVELOP ITJun 16 13:56
Omar871Np237: Regardless.Jun 16 13:56
oiaohmMy issue against .net and mono is based on the .mp3 lession Np237Jun 16 13:56
EruaranDo you want us to pre-install your software on our computers ?Jun 16 13:56
Np237and leave us at peaceJun 16 13:56
oiaohmCan you disarm it Np237.Jun 16 13:57
Np237Eruaran: I won’t hold a gun to force you to install it on your computerJun 16 13:57
oiaohmYou are fast to claim I don't have a case.  Np237Jun 16 13:57
oiaohmTo claim I don't have a case you must be able to disprove it Np237.Jun 16 13:57
Np237oiaohm: the MP3 case is a very good example of RH taking completely stupid decisionsJun 16 13:57
EruaranNp237: I assure you, if your software is dependant on Mono, we wont, and neither will many OEMS.Jun 16 13:57
Np237oiaohm: no. Unless you can prove it, you don’t have a case.Jun 16 13:58
EruaranWe've got better things to do.Jun 16 13:58
oiaohmI can prove that MS will not answer question on what patents apply.Jun 16 13:58
Np237Eruaran: sure, as if OEMs had time to read your FUDJun 16 13:58
oiaohmExactly the same as what lead up to the mp3 problem Np237Jun 16 13:58
Omar871Np237: And unless you can disprove it, you have no right to claim it's not a case.Jun 16 13:58
oiaohmSo lesson from history Np237Jun 16 13:58
EruaranYou're not listening are youJun 16 13:58
EruaranWe are an OEMJun 16 13:58
EruaranWe're the one's in the firing line when Microsoft comes making IP claimsJun 16 13:59
Omar871Eruaran: Of course he's not, man. He's friggin' brainwashed. :DJun 16 13:59
oiaohmSo yes I have information to back my case that the mp3 history should apply  Np237Jun 16 13:59
Np237oiaohm: yeah, so historically, Fraunhoffer threatened to sue people for their patents on MP3 without proving it, and everyone paid them or abandoned MP3Jun 16 13:59
Np237oiaohm: what does it tell us? It tells us that bluff works much better than anything elseJun 16 13:59
oiaohmMP3 was not the only encode format at the time.Jun 16 14:00
oiaohmThere were others with a known patent status.Jun 16 14:00
Np237oiaohm: so what? They could have imagined patents applying to other technologiesJun 16 14:00
Np237“known patent status”Jun 16 14:00
oiaohmIssue of Fraunhoffer could have been avoided.Jun 16 14:00
Np237“known patent status”…Jun 16 14:00
Np237BWAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAJun 16 14:00
Np237there is no such thing as a known patent statusJun 16 14:01
oiaohmThere is.Jun 16 14:01
Np237the very idea of patents is to keep everyone in a grey area, all the timeJun 16 14:01
Np237you are absolutely patheticJun 16 14:01
schestowitzOK, links posted: http://boycottnovell.com/2009/06/16/palm-pre-gpl-incompliant/Jun 16 14:02
oiaohmIBM mastered the art of creating known patent status a long time ago.Jun 16 14:02
Omar871Np237: Oh please Dracula! Don't suck my blood!Jun 16 14:02
Np237oiaohm: no, IBM mastered the art of having so many patents that *nobody* wants to fuck with themJun 16 14:02
oiaohmCalled creating a patent in such a way there is no way to build a new patent ontop of it.Jun 16 14:02
EruaranPerhaps you need to spend some time learning about various patent systems around the world. And stop whining about other people insulting you while you call others 'pathetic'.Jun 16 14:02
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oiaohmAnyone who does must licence the under patent that requires the over patent to be released without charge.Jun 16 14:03
oiaohmKnown patent status.Jun 16 14:03
oiaohmAnd under the same conditions.Jun 16 14:04
oiaohmSo there is such thing as known patent status Np237.Jun 16 14:04
schestowitzNp237: try not to use the F* wordJun 16 14:04
Np237oiaohm: do you actually KNOW what is a patent?Jun 16 14:04
Omar871schestowitz: Exactly, thank.Jun 16 14:04
Np237’coz it doesn’t look like you doJun 16 14:04
oiaohmSecond method is to let the standard to get too old to be patented any more.  Also creates known patent status.Jun 16 14:05
Omar871Np237: It makes you sound even dumber than you already are.Jun 16 14:05
Np237Omar871: thanksJun 16 14:05
Omar871Np237: Welcome.Jun 16 14:06
schestowitzIt makes us look less credibleJun 16 14:07
Np237schestowitz: I don’t think it is possibleJun 16 14:07
schestowitzThen there's folks like Shiells [sic] who say we make death threatdJun 16 14:07
oiaohmOIN patents are based on the IBM design.  To create a patent on top of a patent you need to licence the patent you are building on top of Np237.Jun 16 14:07
schestowitzAnd zealots like "Fink" who provoke and then claim they have something to do with us because they left some commentsJun 16 14:07
schestowitzOIN IS IBM in some waysJun 16 14:08
schestowitzLook at their protfolioJun 16 14:08
schestowitzIt's IBM + some other companiesJun 16 14:08
schestowitzBut IBM is the genesisJun 16 14:08
schestowitzFFII says soJun 16 14:08
Np237oiaohm: if only things were so simple, sure, there could be such a thing as “known patent status“Jun 16 14:08
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schestowitzPeople love shouting "OIN!" whenever the subject of patents come upJun 16 14:08
schestowitzbut companies in OIN are not even against software patentsJun 16 14:09
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schestowitzThey just try to create a sort of corss-licensing ecosystem for LinuxJun 16 14:09
oiaohmTo use OIN patents you must agree not to apply patents against open source.  In case of IBM created standards you must agree to use the patents that any patent you create cannot block other users of the patent.Jun 16 14:09
schestowitzDebian too needs to recognise thisJun 16 14:09
oiaohmand standard.Jun 16 14:09
schestowitzThey'll sell their "eddemnified" IBM mainframe or whateverJun 16 14:09
schestowitzAnd say Debian is no Red Hat and there's no 'protection', whatever...Jun 16 14:09
schestowitz*indemnifiedJun 16 14:10
Np237schestowitz: our policy is to ignore all patent threats that aren’t clearly identifiedJun 16 14:11
oiaohmNp237: idea that the patent system is complex keeps people from understanding how the licencing of patents can be used to block issues.Jun 16 14:12
Omar871Np237: Until they do get clearly identified, and then it's too late for us to retreat, because we would have already fell in the trap? Is that what you're saying?Jun 16 14:12
Np237Omar871: here you go againJun 16 14:12
Np237Omar871: future threats are included in identified patent threats, you knowJun 16 14:13
Np237Omar871: but since there is no such thing about Mono…Jun 16 14:13
oiaohmSame was said about mp3 Np237Jun 16 14:13
oiaohmhave you learnt nothing Np237.Jun 16 14:13
Np237noJun 16 14:13
oiaohmYes it was.Jun 16 14:13
Np237oiaohm: we never included MP3 encodersJun 16 14:13
Np237patent claims about MP3 decoders are a jokeJun 16 14:13
Np237only RH bought themJun 16 14:14
Np237now everyone can have fun of the distro without MP3 playbackJun 16 14:14
Omar871BRB---> LunchJun 16 14:15
oiaohmNp237: so that is your defence.Jun 16 14:15
oiaohmSince no other distribution was threated with legal action over them.Jun 16 14:15
oiaohmIts expected that RH would be different.Jun 16 14:16
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oiaohmAgain another lets redirect around problem and insult someone Np237Jun 16 14:16
splosionThis just in: I suck at physicsJun 16 14:16
splosionYou lot still arguing? dear meJun 16 14:17
oiaohmThey never listen.  I always warn them there is no way to win.  History backs my line.Jun 16 14:20
Np237oiaohm: my “defense” (if you like to call it so) is that we cannot have serious consideration for any patent claims, except the most obvious onesJun 16 14:24
Np237because ALL packages we ship have to violate some stupid patentsJun 16 14:24
Np237it is not possible to treat patents as intellectual property, because they are notJun 16 14:24
Np237patents are weaponsJun 16 14:24
Np237weapons with which companies attack each otherJun 16 14:25
splosionThere's a difference between accidentally violating some bullshit patent and deliberately going ahead and doing itJun 16 14:25
Np237splosion: there is no patent that is deliberately violated by shipping MonoJun 16 14:25
MinceRthere's a difference between a patent from a random company maybe lurking in a non-essential package and making a distro depend on a patent that was put there on purpose by m$/novellJun 16 14:25
oiaohmTo be correct there is a lot of software that cannot violate valid patents Np237.Jun 16 14:25
Np237MinceR: there is no such thing as a distro “depending” on a patentJun 16 14:26
oiaohmThe priorart clause of patents Np237.Jun 16 14:26
Np237oiaohm: right, software that wasn’t updated for 20 yearsJun 16 14:26
MinceRNp237: well, what would you call the default install depending on a package that infringes on a patent?Jun 16 14:26
oiaohmOr is older 2 older than any patent trying to be applied to it.Jun 16 14:26
oiaohmie prior art.Jun 16 14:27
Np237MinceR: what does it change from having the same software on the CD?Jun 16 14:27
oiaohmLot of patents cannot apply.Jun 16 14:27
oiaohmIts not that hard to be patent safe.Jun 16 14:27
splosionThe mono bitching would disappear overnight if Microsoft offered all distributions an unlimited, irrevocable covenant not to sue and to distribute the stuff. That would be pretty sweetJun 16 14:27
schestowitzNp237: the patent holder mattersJun 16 14:27
Np237MinceR: even further: the only patents you pretend that Mono violates are about WinformsJun 16 14:27
MinceRNp237: it's more difficult to removeJun 16 14:27
schestowitzMcirosoft wants to destroy LinuxJun 16 14:28
Np237MinceR: and nothing in GNOME depends on WinformsJun 16 14:28
schestowitzOther companies know the PR issueJun 16 14:28
schestowitzMozilla recognises this tooJun 16 14:28
MinceRNp237: not really, i "pretend" it also violates patents about JIT, iircJun 16 14:28
schestowitzhttp://www.mail-archive.com/foundation-list%40gnome.org/msg02681.htmlJun 16 14:28
schestowitzRichard Stallman: "Indeed, every large program implements lots of ideas that are patented.  Indeed, there's no way to avoid this danger.  But that's no reason to put our head inside Microsoft's jaws."Jun 16 14:28
Np237schestowitz: what is the point of quoting someone who lost his mindJun 16 14:29
schestowitzA lot of companies can coexist with LinuxJun 16 14:29
schestowitzMicrosoft can't Jun 16 14:29
schestowitzAll its money from from Windows and OfficeJun 16 14:29
Np237schestowitz: may I recall you that RMS considers invariant sections as free?Jun 16 14:29
schestowitzSo it wants to replace that with patent revenueJun 16 14:29
schestowitzNp237: Well, it figuresJun 16 14:29
schestowitzYou think RMS is insaneJun 16 14:29
splosionif Microsoft had offered all Linux distributions a covenant that promised they wouldn't sue at all ever, instead of some secretive, time-limited, money-laundering job, BN probably wouldn't existJun 16 14:30
Np237splosion: why would they do that?Jun 16 14:30
splosionIf you want to help FOSS, that's how you do itJun 16 14:30
Np237why would *any company* do that?Jun 16 14:31
splosionGoogle did with WaveJun 16 14:31
Np237Google doesn’t make money on patentsJun 16 14:31
Np237they make money with your personal dataJun 16 14:31
oiaohmAlso items like the Linux kernel is hard to touch deeply with a patent attack.  Because it is heavily patented under an agreement to us those patents against open source.Jun 16 14:31
splosionGoogle want Wave to be used by everyone and everyone. If Microsoft want their Net stuff to run on all systems, they'd offer the sameJun 16 14:31
oiaohmOpps left out not.Jun 16 14:32
splosions/everyone/anyoneJun 16 14:32
splosiondepends how you want to make money. Patent trolling vs actually doing good businessJun 16 14:32
oiaohmLack of information on .net is very much putting your month in the lions jaws even worse what size the lion is.  If it was only a lion cub it not a big problem.   A simple visit to a site to get a mp3 licence will tell you want patents they want to apply on you.Jun 16 14:34
oiaohmSame with dvd and blueray decoding.Jun 16 14:34
oiaohmThinking that patents are public documents there is no reason for a standard writer who is out to do no harm to keep them secret.Jun 16 14:34
oiaohmMS is the standard writer of .net.Jun 16 14:35
oiaohmHistory tells us something Np237.  A standard writer who keeps there patents secrect on a standard are a threat.Jun 16 14:36
Np237oiaohm: erm… what?Jun 16 14:37
twitterNp237 has lost his mind and thinks mono is not a trap.Jun 16 14:37
Np237oiaohm: you really don’t know what a patent is, do you?Jun 16 14:38
oiaohmEvery standard that the stardard writer has kept there patents hidden.  The standard writter has used those patents to attack in time.Jun 16 14:38
oiaohmThat is a historic fact Np237.Jun 16 14:39
Np237the *whole point* of a patent is that it is not secretJun 16 14:39
oiaohmExactly so there is no reason not to declare in documentation around standard what patents are used.Jun 16 14:39
oiaohmUnless you are planing to use those patents as weapons.Jun 16 14:40
oiaohmAnd you don't want anyone working around the patents.Jun 16 14:40
oiaohmSo a threat.Jun 16 14:40
oiaohmHistory says that will turn into real action at some time.Jun 16 14:41
twitterAsk M$ about that one.  They seem to think that they can threaten people with patents without telling them which patents are violated.Jun 16 14:41
twitterIn effect, they have secret patents.Jun 16 14:41
twitterIn reality, they have nothing.Jun 16 14:42
twitterEspecially since BiskiJun 16 14:42
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] Debian is Not Including Mono by Default, Yet < http://ping.fm/logZf >Jun 16 14:42
splosionThose mystery hundreds of patents the Linux kernel supposedly violates would eventually get written out of the system if they were ever publicly disclosed. People made FAT patches almost immediately, for instance. It is in the patent holder's best interest to keep them secret and threaten people with them, and occaisonally win a few NDA licensing agreements.Jun 16 14:43
oiaohmBasically Np237 you are going against what the history of patent usage tells us.  Np237Jun 16 14:43
splosionimmediately after TomTom*Jun 16 14:43
schestowitztwitter: yes, I have a post on thatJun 16 14:43
schestowitzMS and patentsJun 16 14:43
schestowitzLast resortJun 16 14:43
schestowitzDidn't work for UnisysJun 16 14:43
Np237oiaohm: you are surrendering to the patent insanity, I don’tJun 16 14:44
Np237that’s itJun 16 14:44
oiaohmThis is not surrendering.   I have learnt from history.Jun 16 14:45
oiaohmPatent also cannot be applied to cases of proven independant development.Jun 16 14:45
oiaohmSince mono developers are using .net standard they don't have independant development defence either.Jun 16 14:46
twitter"(03:45:45 AM) schestowitz: So basically, Microsoft lets Linux embrace .NET"  Shestowitz, misspelled "rams .NET down the throats of various distros by astroturf and smear attacks."Jun 16 14:47
schestowitzNp237: help us fight the patent insanityJun 16 14:47
oiaohmThere are big problems using a standard of undefined patent status.  Np237Jun 16 14:47
schestowitzYou'll be better off working with peers against itJun 16 14:47
schestowitzOthers in pharma fight the same fightJun 16 14:47
oiaohmYour defensive options are reduced  Np237Jun 16 14:47
schestowitzSo patent unrest unites forces across disciplinesJun 16 14:47
oiaohmIe prior art and independant development are your two biggest defence keys.Jun 16 14:48
schestowitztwitter: yeah, something like thstJun 16 14:48
schestowitz*thatJun 16 14:48
schestowitzBut Novell helps themJun 16 14:48
oiaohmMono has neither.Jun 16 14:48
schestowitzNovell employees going to Reddit for example to 'evangelise' MonoJun 16 14:48
Np237\o/ the troll made itwire \o/Jun 16 14:48
schestowitzWho's a trollJun 16 14:48
schestowitz?Jun 16 14:48
Np237Varghese being as condescending as usual of courseJun 16 14:49
Np237schestowitz: Robert Millan of courseJun 16 14:49
schestowitzTroll one one who posts only to disruptJun 16 14:49
schestowitzTroll!=someone you don't likeJun 16 14:49
Np237I knowJun 16 14:49
schestowitzSome people call "terrorism" everything they disagree withJun 16 14:49
oiaohmNp237: Ok what is better use tech you have options to defend.Jun 16 14:49
schestowitzLike public protestsJun 16 14:49
twitterBob is in a very bad position -> (03:25:06 AM) IsBob: and now, either I have to rescind them, or I risk being in a very bad position with my managementJun 16 14:49
oiaohmOr use something like mono that you don't have options to defend Np237Jun 16 14:49
schestowitzNp237: don't use the word trollJun 16 14:49
Np237Robert Millan blogged about something he did not understand, just because his plan was not going on as plannedJun 16 14:49
schestowitzIt's a debateJun 16 14:49
Np237his point was only to disruptJun 16 14:50
schestowitzThere are no trolls in technical debates unless they aggravate for the sake of itJun 16 14:50
Np237his troll made osnews, /. and itwireJun 16 14:50
Np237with ZERO accurate information in each of the newsJun 16 14:50
Np237good jobJun 16 14:50
schestowitzThe one with obscene posts is more likely to be the troll.Jun 16 14:50
schestowitzPersonal attacks,  f* word, ego trips, etc.Jun 16 14:50
schestowitzQuotes gourmet Jun 16 14:51
schestowitzAre you here to pick some new quotes?Jun 16 14:51
Np237how would you call someone who starts a discussion with no contents, in the only hope that everyone talks about it?Jun 16 14:51
Np237schestowitz: I admit that I thought of it, but it would be too easyJun 16 14:51
oiaohmNp237: You will find most open source software is more patent defendable than mono.   Even wine and samba are more defendable.Jun 16 14:52
Np237schestowitz: I’ll just point to the log when it’s onlineJun 16 14:52
twitterNp237 defines self, "someone who starts a discussion with no contents, in the only hope that everyone talks about it?"Jun 16 14:54
twitter*twitter ignores Np237, three hours of that kind of trash is more than enough.Jun 16 14:54
Np237:(Jun 16 14:54
Np237admittedly, twitter is not the most refreshingJun 16 14:55
oiaohmI think its funny that you classed me as surrending to patents.Jun 16 14:55
Np237oiaohm: that’s just what you explainedJun 16 14:55
oiaohmWhat is the point of setting up a patent trap if no one walks in.Jun 16 14:56
oiaohmWhat MS has done with the .net standard is the normal formation of a patent trap.Jun 16 14:56
oiaohmThat has been repeated thousands of times.Jun 16 14:56
oiaohmIs there not options to avoid trap?Jun 16 14:57
Omar871Np237: If this is surrendering, then what do you call avoidance?Jun 16 14:58
oiaohmPatent holder making proft from traps makes others think creating patent traps is a good idea.Jun 16 14:58
oiaohmI just don't believe in repeating the cycles that make the patent system a poorly documented mess.Jun 16 14:59
oiaohmWhat you describe is surrending to the fact you will be done over by patents threw your own stupitity Np237.Jun 16 15:00
Np237oiaohm: someday, I might have problems with MS patents and MonoJun 16 15:01
Np237or with IBM patents and whatever other package in the distroJun 16 15:01
Np237or with stupid French legislation and P2P softwareJun 16 15:01
Np237I can live with thatJun 16 15:01
oiaohmHow many times do companies have to create patent traps before people learn not to walk in.Jun 16 15:01
oiaohmYou are simply playing into the cycle Np237.Jun 16 15:02
Np237oiaohm: if the fear of patent traps wins over the advances in software developments, the terrorists have already wonJun 16 15:02
oiaohmAvoiding patent traps does not stop development.Jun 16 15:02
Np237oiaohm: just like the actual terrorists won by killing more people through fear than they did by actual bombingsJun 16 15:02
oiaohmIs there any reason that the resouces that went into mono that could be locked up by patents could not have gone into designing something better and not at risk.Jun 16 15:03
oiaohmAnd defendable by priorart and independant development.Jun 16 15:03
oiaohmAnswer there is no good reason.Jun 16 15:03
MinceRNp237: if m$ can suddenly pop up with provable claims that the entirety of the gnu/linux infringes on patents they own, the terrorists might win a battleJun 16 15:04
MinceRand there's no reason to give them that.Jun 16 15:04
oiaohmWhat you are doing is simply going into a war zone without body armor with .net Np237Jun 16 15:05
twitter:) David Gerard, "Ich bien ine Tehranier" -> (02:24:15 AM) BNc: (notice) [davidgerard] RT @nzmrmn change yr Twitter settings to show GMT +03:30 Tehran as your timezone, change home city to Tehran to confuse the Iranian censors.Jun 16 15:05
MinceRno, he's telling _us_ to go into the war zone without armorJun 16 15:05
oiaohmIts a insane thing todo when you have the option of taking body armor.Jun 16 15:05
MinceR(or alternatively calling us fools for not doing so)Jun 16 15:05
oiaohmAvoiding patent traps really causes no long term damage.   Not avoiding them on the other hand can mean many thousands of man hours could end up usless Np237Jun 16 15:07
oiaohmWasting resources is not good for the future.Jun 16 15:08
twitterUsing mono strengthen M$'s position and will strengthen their ability to promote software patents.  If people really do chose to use that inferior tech, M$ will jump up and down and say, "See, our IP was so valuable that no one could resist using it and software patents were a good idea all along."Jun 16 15:08
twitterBecause mono is such an obvious trap, it should be avoided to help eliminate software patents.Jun 16 15:09
MinceRit also gives them the ability to influence decisions made regarding free software.Jun 16 15:09
oiaohmBig one is effecting performance of software in MS favor.Jun 16 15:09
twitterOnly Novell and M$ people are promoting that trash anyway.Jun 16 15:09
oiaohmThere is nothing good coming from .netJun 16 15:10
twitterClaiming that BN is the only entity with the common sense to see the mono trap, is the purest of hypocrisy by Novell and M$ people.Jun 16 15:10
twitterI'm glad to see Debian has not lost it's collective mind. http://boycottnovell.com/2009/06/16/debian-not-including-mono/Jun 16 15:11
twitterI did not think they had or ever would.Jun 16 15:12
oiaohmBesides I spoke about mono patent threat before I even knew about boycott novell.Jun 16 15:12
MinceRgood news.Jun 16 15:12
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] More Cost Cutting and Device Xenophobia at Microsoft < http://ping.fm/Jv7A8 >Jun 16 15:12
oiaohmBoycott novell is not the source of my point of view.   You should have notice its different to the line roy uses Np237.Jun 16 15:13
Np237hahahahahaha that’s so frigging funnyJun 16 15:13
Np237now after the itwire article everyone says “oh cool, finally Debian is not shipping Mono”Jun 16 15:13
Np237note that in the meantime NOTHING STILL HAPPENED !Jun 16 15:13
schestowitzTrueJun 16 15:13
schestowitzNothing happenedJun 16 15:13
Np237all that fuss over nothing is so incredibleJun 16 15:14
schestowitzBut it's not final, eitherJun 16 15:14
schestowitzNp237: it isJun 16 15:14
oiaohmNothing getting so much press coverage.Jun 16 15:14
Np237that’s where I think Robert is mastering the art of trollingJun 16 15:14
schestowitzNp237: let's pay attention to Red HatJun 16 15:14
oiaohmI think not Np237Jun 16 15:14
schestowitzThey are looking into mono licnesingJun 16 15:14
oiaohmDebian final result on licening will be interesting.Jun 16 15:15
Np237the fun thing being, itwire interviewed the project leaderJun 16 15:15
Np237and the project leader has *zero* word to say about this !Jun 16 15:15
oiaohmAttention effects outcomes Np237.Jun 16 15:15
Np237the only ones having a say being the GNOME team (who basically agree with me) and the installer team (who don’t seem to give a shit about this)Jun 16 15:16
oiaohmMS has got press for less.Jun 16 15:16
Np237indeedJun 16 15:16
Np237maybe it’s a sign that Debian is matureJun 16 15:16
oiaohm10 years ago this would not even made the news.Jun 16 15:16
oiaohmIts a sign of a change Np237Jun 16 15:17
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oiaohmIf debian does throw mono out it would basically be the kiss of death to mono as a platform.  And if mono is kiss of death there is no more really .net cross platform.Jun 16 15:19
oiaohmSo there is interest of course Np237Jun 16 15:20
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splosionARM-books are doomed! http://blogs.zdnet.com/computers/?p=747Jun 16 15:27
splosionThe arguments follows thus: No Windows 7 on ARM = failJun 16 15:28
MinceRoh noesJun 16 15:28
MinceRwhatever shall we do without vista7?Jun 16 15:28
MinceRoh noes, mobile phones use ARM too, so they're doomed!Jun 16 15:29
twitterI predict Google will make Android work perfectly with all Google services, so "lack of flash support" will look like utter fud and lies.Jun 16 15:29
MinceRwhich service uses flash besided youtube? for that, they could develop custom support in other waysJun 16 15:30
MinceRs/ded/des/Jun 16 15:30
twitterThat will bury both Windows Mobil and Windows 7 on portable devices.Jun 16 15:30
twitterFlash is used for Finance, maps and other services.Jun 16 15:31
twitterMany of these things are already working with gnash, but not all.Jun 16 15:31
MinceRright, finance uses it tooJun 16 15:31
twitterat least not all work on Lenny.Jun 16 15:31
MinceRi didn't notice maps using it thoughJun 16 15:31
splosionFroogle is rather neatly done, I must sayJun 16 15:31
twitterStreet view uses flash.Jun 16 15:31
MinceRicJun 16 15:31
twittermaps use flash, but it seems to work with gnash now.Jun 16 15:32
MinceRin any case, in this case google controls both the server and the client so in theory they could find a way around using flashJun 16 15:32
twitterexactlyJun 16 15:32
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twitterand all gnu/linux is likely to reap the same rewards.Jun 16 15:33
twitterM$ is killing themselves by fighting Google and iPod with their own sucky devices.  The only reason to use Windows was "compatibilty" with cool devices.  People put up with a second rate platform for sync.  Now, Windows is the OS that does not work with anything cool.Jun 16 15:35
twittergotta run, bblJun 16 15:36
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splosionhrmm. That does irk me. People say "Lunix will nevar be ready for the desktop because it doesn't support any peripherals lol it sucks thats why lol." Somewhat true, but it's hardly the fault of Linux. As it gets more popular, support will come. Things like the ARM books will help I reckonsJun 16 15:38
MinceRif linux wasn't ready for the desktop for reasons people keep claiming it isn't, then no os would be ready for the desktop either.Jun 16 15:39
splosionwell sure. it's been ready for my desktop and most of the people in this room's desktops and millions of others for some time nowJun 16 15:41
splosionhow many millions before some dipshit can declare it's ready?Jun 16 15:41
MinceRever since red hat 7.0, it's been more ready for my desktop than anything else.Jun 16 15:41
MinceRsplosion: m$ needs to lose its dominance, perhaps then they'll declare it is. if not, then m$ and crApple will have to die.Jun 16 15:42
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MinceRwho knows, maybe even they'll say that some random *bsd is the only way.Jun 16 15:43
MinceRs/even/even then/Jun 16 15:43
MinceRthen again, they could stick to a dead platformJun 16 15:44
_Mutex_Hay all, duty BN Troll here  :) But I would say, its the actual question of Linux ready for the desktop that should be in question, I think if it provides the functionality, and tools and performed that the USER requires, to be productive and the experience is adequate, then Linux is just as ready for the USER as any other OS, if it does what YOU NEED its ready, it if dose  not its not,Jun 16 15:44
splosionMS's market dominance is because WIndows is installed on 99% of PCs sold in the world. Shit, if Debian's Hurd was the default OS on new PCs that would probably have the same usershare as Windows does now.Jun 16 15:44
MinceR_Mutex_: in that case, no OS is ready for the desktop and no OS will ever beJun 16 15:45
MinceR_Mutex_: unless you're using a different definition of "USER" from the one i'm aware of.Jun 16 15:45
_Mutex_its not an issue of market share, if  it was BSD would be considered more successfull that Linux, as its only many more desktops than linux OSX)Jun 16 15:45
_Mutex_any OS that does what you want is ready,Jun 16 15:45
MinceRby whose numbers? NPD?Jun 16 15:45
MinceRNet Applications?Jun 16 15:45
MinceRremember, the world isn't only the USA.Jun 16 15:45
_Mutex_what is your definition of USER, Mine is someone who USES a computer, whats yours ??Jun 16 15:46
MinceRwell, i'm someone who uses a computerJun 16 15:46
MinceRtherefore i hereby proclaim gnu/linux to be ready for the desktopJun 16 15:46
_Mutex_obviously, as am I :)Jun 16 15:46
MinceRand i hereby proclaim windows and macos to be not ready for the desktopJun 16 15:46
_Mutex_so if what your using does what you need it to so ,, job doneJun 16 15:47
_Mutex_what the percentage of OSX's around, I believe its about 10% correct me if im wrong,Jun 16 15:47
MinceRdunnoJun 16 15:48
MinceRi don't even know any reasonably sane methodology to measure installed base.Jun 16 15:48
splosioncripes. the news Opera looks amazingJun 16 15:48
splosion-sJun 16 15:48
_Mutex_I was saying it does not matter, you dont use your computer because of popularity do you ?? I use mine because it does what I need.Jun 16 15:49
MinceRiirc it's usually said that osx and gnu/linux has the same shareJun 16 15:49
MinceRand usually usa-biased stats are usedJun 16 15:49
MinceRwhich are strongly biased towards crApple.Jun 16 15:49
splosionFirefox, Chrome and Safari are going to need to catch up to those features soonJun 16 15:49
MinceR_Mutex_: i don't, though my experience does in part depend on popularityJun 16 15:49
MinceR_Mutex_: because hw and app vendors decide whether to support a platform based on its market share.Jun 16 15:50
MinceR(or installed base)Jun 16 15:50
_Mutex_do you choose your products and computing needs based on market share ??  so do you buy the most popular make of car just because its the most popular,Jun 16 15:50
_Mutex_or do you buy a car that meets your needs ?Jun 16 15:50
MinceRi don'tJun 16 15:50
MinceRhw and application vendors do choose what to target partly based on that thoughJun 16 15:50
MinceRwhich affects what is available to meJun 16 15:50
_Mutex_yes mabey that app vendors and hw are not the desktop,  im sure car tyre makers make more tyres for popular brands than obscure ones, does not mean the obscure ones are worse, it may be a farrari, but its not as popular as a mazda.Jun 16 15:52
_Mutex_but most certainly can be better and faster, and more desirable to car loversJun 16 15:52
_Mutex_have low market share is nothing, its bears no relationship with quality, or lack of it.Jun 16 15:53
_Mutex_sure accessories are harder to get, and parts harder to find, but you still get super performace, and lots of fun, and women (or men) depending on your preference :)Jun 16 15:54
schestowitzsplosion: that anti-ARM slog was predictableJun 16 15:56
schestowitzI think we can avoid feeding the talking pointsJun 16 15:57
_Mutex_who;s being anti_ARM ??Jun 16 15:57
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-BNc/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] Novell and Xandros Are Promoting Windows, Again < http://ping.fm/lM3xQ >Jun 16 15:57
MinceR_Mutex_: tyre makers target standard tyre sizes and types, not car brandsJun 16 15:59
_Mutex_yes, but im sure you can get my point right ??Jun 16 16:00
MinceRnot reallyJun 16 16:00
MinceRapplications are hardly accessoriesJun 16 16:01
MinceRneither is hardwareJun 16 16:01
_Mutex_market share is not everything, farrai's have less market share but they are better than a mazda that have heaps of market share,Jun 16 16:01
schestowitzbblJun 16 16:01
MinceR_Mutex_: the use of cars