| schestowitz | oiaohm: take a look. http://brainstorm.ubuntu.com/idea/20257/ | Jun 17 00:00 |
|---|---|---|
| oiaohm | I really have to cover the technical side of mono some time. | Jun 17 00:01 |
| schestowitz | MinceR was looking for you | Jun 17 00:02 |
| schestowitz | Re JIT | Jun 17 00:02 |
| oiaohm | Its not that hard really. If you were to rebuild something like net and java but this time for performance. | Jun 17 00:02 |
| oiaohm | You would design it like vala. | Jun 17 00:02 |
| oiaohm | Thin wrappers to C and gobject that disappear in the the jit/aot processes. For qt support you would try to sneek in C++ same kind of thin wrapper. | Jun 17 00:03 |
| oiaohm | There is a reason why java and .net wrappers are thick. Java and .net are designed to provide there only mandorary access control system. | Jun 17 00:04 |
| schestowitz | Google to delete Street View source images http://www.theregister.co.uk/2009/06/16/google_street_view_source_deletion/ | Jun 17 00:04 |
| schestowitz | That's like saying I too must destory my personal photos | Jun 17 00:05 |
| schestowitz | Because they may contain faces of others | Jun 17 00:05 |
| oiaohm | The gnote push worries .net developers for the simple fact it shows them how open to being replaced they are. | Jun 17 00:08 |
| schestowitz | *LOL* Ryanair requires web check-in, shuts down website < http://www.theregister.co.uk/2009/06/16/ryanair_site_down/ > | Jun 17 00:09 |
| schestowitz | They also require Silver Lie | Jun 17 00:09 |
| schestowitz | oiaohm: let me show you something. | Jun 17 00:09 |
| schestowitz | http://pastebin.com/f4c3dce66 | Jun 17 00:10 |
| schestowitz | See the remark about it having an impact | Jun 17 00:10 |
| schestowitz | Mono groupaz don't feel so happy about gnote and the other trends | Jun 17 00:10 |
| schestowitz | Mono loses mind share | Jun 17 00:10 |
| -BNc/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] Iran's revolution will not be televised, but could be tweeted < http://ping.fm/PGjEg > Internet liberates. | Jun 17 00:12 | |
| oiaohm | So he is trying to get the paperwork. Why can he not just say that openly. | Jun 17 00:13 |
| schestowitz | Well, duh | Jun 17 00:14 |
| schestowitz | It would scare people | Jun 17 00:14 |
| oiaohm | That the information is coming just very slowly. So we can decide to hold of mono until we get the paperwork. | Jun 17 00:14 |
| oiaohm | Understanding the patent system is not complex. | Jun 17 00:14 |
| oiaohm | You should not need to understand the patent system when dealing with a truthful standard. | Jun 17 00:15 |
| oiaohm | Saying it openly would presure MS to answer problem. | Jun 17 00:15 |
| oiaohm | This is my problem. If mono/.net design was technically the best you would have a reason to consider disregarding patents and the problems. Does not take much investagtion to find that its not techinclaly the best. | Jun 17 00:19 |
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| fewa | schestowitz, daily show covered it | Jun 17 00:20 |
| fewa | iran | Jun 17 00:20 |
| oiaohm | Next time I should use the example of fat patents against mono. | Jun 17 00:24 |
| schestowitz | fewa: did CNN and FAUX? | Jun 17 00:28 |
| fewa | I don't know, i don't watch crap | Jun 17 00:28 |
| oiaohm | Part of my problem comes from being in wine forums/mail list over the years. | Jun 17 00:29 |
| oiaohm | When you tell a windows developer that they cannot expect to randomally call out to the native system they put up all kinds of evil hacks to break out to justify there case for being allowed system access. | Jun 17 00:30 |
| schestowitz | So basically, secretly for all I can tell, Miguel says he trying to get Mono paperwork, but he's not able to get anything yet, so Mono-based projects suffer in the mean time. | Jun 17 00:30 |
| schestowitz | Wine? | Jun 17 00:30 |
| schestowitz | Well, wine is a different storie | Jun 17 00:30 |
| schestowitz | *y | Jun 17 00:30 |
| schestowitz | So is Samba | Jun 17 00:31 |
| oiaohm | The people you are dealing with is not. | Jun 17 00:31 |
| schestowitz | For several reasons | Jun 17 00:31 |
| oiaohm | Windows insane coders | Jun 17 00:31 |
| schestowitz | Mono is here to sort of "build" Linux | Jun 17 00:31 |
| schestowitz | Wine is not | Jun 17 00:31 |
| schestowitz | Samba lets us talk to Windows-contaminated networks | Jun 17 00:31 |
| fewa | very differn't things | Jun 17 00:31 |
| oiaohm | People around mono are the same idiot windows coders I had to sort out in wine forums all the time. | Jun 17 00:32 |
| schestowitz | If I want to talk to any machine I have I use fish:// SSH SCO rsync | Jun 17 00:32 |
| schestowitz | I never set up Samba | Jun 17 00:32 |
| schestowitz | Like ever. | Jun 17 00:32 |
| oiaohm | I know they are different things. | Jun 17 00:32 |
| oiaohm | Lot of windows coders love sticking there head in sand and disreguarding problems. | Jun 17 00:33 |
| oiaohm | Since something works once it should always. If you break what they do you are responsiable. Not that they were doing bad coding prac. | Jun 17 00:33 |
| neighborlee | it supports their agenda , no doubt backed up by foundation which holds up their finances. | Jun 17 00:34 |
| neighborlee | and that isnt just me saying or feeling that..many others. | Jun 17 00:34 |
| oiaohm | Basically schestowitz those kinds of windows coders all have completely screwed up logic. | Jun 17 00:34 |
| oiaohm | I just though I should tell you where my skills for ripping them apart has come from schestowitz | Jun 17 00:37 |
| Balrog | Mono can be used as Wine | Jun 17 00:39 |
| Balrog | that's what I use it for, if I must | Jun 17 00:39 |
| oiaohm | http://code.google.com/p/android-scripting/ Hmm interesting. Install software into android scan a bar code. | Jun 17 00:39 |
| Balrog | the agenda of those who are producing it is different though | Jun 17 00:39 |
| schestowitz | Question: | Jun 17 00:39 |
| schestowitz | Is Jo shields a developer at some cpacity? | Jun 17 00:40 |
| schestowitz | I try to get a sense for who promotes Mono | Jun 17 00:40 |
| schestowitz | I doubt Miguel develops much | Jun 17 00:40 |
| schestowitz | Linus doesn't, either | Jun 17 00:40 |
| schestowitz | RMS -- same | Jun 17 00:40 |
| schestowitz | Gave emacs for others to maintain | Jun 17 00:40 |
| Balrog | Linus does some | Jun 17 00:40 |
| schestowitz | So WHO promotes Mono? | Jun 17 00:40 |
| schestowitz | Novell employees, and.................. | Jun 17 00:41 |
| schestowitz | I know Microsoft bloggers have a hardon for Mono | Jun 17 00:41 |
| schestowitz | And that's not a good sign (for us) | Jun 17 00:41 |
| schestowitz | They also hold up Miguel as a poster child for Linux | Jun 17 00:42 |
| schestowitz | Because he promotes his friends from Redmond, advancing Windwos | Jun 17 00:42 |
| schestowitz | Yikes. http://beerwithsubtitles.net/?p=814 | Jun 17 00:43 |
| schestowitz | I liked what I saw in KDE4 | Jun 17 00:44 |
| neighborlee | eyes wide open..who else would so easily support patents..or any indication of such a threat to FOSS...novel &/or those I guess using mono in productivity ? | Jun 17 00:44 |
| schestowitz | Maybe I didn't use it long enough? Maybe they complain in vain | Jun 17 00:44 |
| neighborlee | is someone that is OSC systems manager likely to be a coder ? | Jun 17 00:45 |
| neighborlee | well..I used it in fedora 12 RC.. | Jun 17 00:45 |
| oiaohm | https://nm.debian.org/nmstatus.php?email=directhex%40apebox.org I do know jo shields is trying to get maintainership rights in different places. | Jun 17 00:45 |
| neighborlee | was buggy..but im not sure if it was fedora or kde4 at fault ;)) | Jun 17 00:45 |
| neighborlee | or both.. | Jun 17 00:45 |
| neighborlee | but it def. is nice..visual wize it does compete with windows if thats a perceived goal | Jun 17 00:46 |
| neighborlee | oiaohm, most definitely he is... | Jun 17 00:46 |
| neighborlee | http://www.oerc.ox.ac.uk/people/osc-staff | Jun 17 00:47 |
| oiaohm | http://behindmotu.wordpress.com/2009/05/11/jo-shields-directhex/ Also handy is every created ubuntu motu has a background created page. | Jun 17 00:48 |
| oiaohm | Of course always in the postive | Jun 17 00:48 |
| schestowitz | http://jkontherun.com/2009/06/14/crunchpad-unboxed-on-video/ UPDATE: CrunchPad Unboxed on Video REMOVED - PR stunt? | Jun 17 00:48 |
| oiaohm | I guess you did not know about behindmotu with ubuntu schestowitz. | Jun 17 00:49 |
| schestowitz | "Mirco Bauer (meebey)" | Jun 17 00:50 |
| schestowitz | Uh oh | Jun 17 00:50 |
| schestowitz | That explains something | Jun 17 00:50 |
| schestowitz | He shows up in BN to defend Jo on occasions | Jun 17 00:50 |
| oiaohm | Bookmark behindmotu its a useful site when dealing with different ubuntu motu's. | Jun 17 00:53 |
| oiaohm | Found it particularly handy when I had to bring a ubuntu motu under control who was creating bad wine packages. | Jun 17 00:55 |
| schestowitz | oiaohm: watch the comments | Jun 17 00:56 |
| schestowitz | 3/5 are from Jo | Jun 17 00:56 |
| schestowitz | using different nuyms evebn! | Jun 17 00:56 |
| schestowitz | Like sockpuppet, bith with pis of chickens | Jun 17 00:56 |
| schestowitz | *both *pics | Jun 17 00:57 |
| -BNc/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] Nice short review of Fedora 11: http://ping.fm/Dl08V | Jun 17 00:57 | |
| oiaohm | Also Mirco Bauer is one of the main mono maintainers in debian. | Jun 17 01:00 |
| oiaohm | So attacking mono is attacking is footing in the debian world. | Jun 17 01:01 |
| schestowitz | I know | Jun 17 01:01 |
| schestowitz | He showed me that | Jun 17 01:01 |
| oiaohm | I cannot comment to much on Mirco Bauer we do have bad blood with each other. If I used one of my old handles he would remember me. | Jun 17 01:02 |
| schestowitz | Old one? | Jun 17 01:08 |
| schestowitz | There was a long Debian confrontation here this morning. | Jun 17 01:10 |
| schestowitz | I think you were absent | Jun 17 01:10 |
| schestowitz | basically, the lobbying for Mono by default was here arguing and cursing | Jun 17 01:10 |
| schestowitz | *ist | Jun 17 01:10 |
| oiaohm | Its pre .net schestowitz | Jun 17 01:10 |
| oiaohm | I have been a debian user for a very long time schestowitz. | Jun 17 01:11 |
| oiaohm | Pitty I missed that. | Jun 17 01:12 |
| oiaohm | I had one last night with np over patents. | Jun 17 01:12 |
| oiaohm | Mono supporters cannot win if you reduce arguement to cold hard logic. | Jun 17 01:16 |
| schestowitz | oiaohm: you can see the log tomorrow | Jun 17 01:16 |
| schestowitz | Or actually, i'll post it now | Jun 17 01:16 |
| oiaohm | Its funny many years ago they did not even bother fighting you. | Jun 17 01:18 |
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| oiaohm | "First they ignore you, then they ridicule you, then they fight you, then you win." - Mahatma Gandhi | Jun 17 01:21 |
| neighborlee | oiaohm, and I did..and they could not , your right of course...but common sense already told us this no great surprise..instead of working WITH foss they chose to work against..how ironic | Jun 17 01:21 |
| neighborlee | oiaohm, exactly right | Jun 17 01:21 |
| oiaohm | We are somewhere between ridicule and fight at moment. | Jun 17 01:22 |
| neighborlee | reasonable | Jun 17 01:22 |
| neighborlee | def. closer to fight | Jun 17 01:22 |
| oiaohm | More we force pure logic more we force it into fight. | Jun 17 01:23 |
| schestowitz | oiaohm: I've posted this for you. <Np237> is your man. http://boycottnovell.com/wp-content/uploads/2009/06/irc-log-16062009.html | Jun 17 01:23 |
| schestowitz | gn | Jun 17 01:23 |
| neighborlee | oiaohm, it sure seems that way | Jun 17 01:25 |
| neighborlee | oiaohm, a cornerd animal sometimes reacts this way. | Jun 17 01:25 |
| oiaohm | Its fight or flight. Its coded into all creatures including humans. | Jun 17 01:26 |
| oiaohm | Gandhi if you read his works tells you to disreguard ridicule and just use logic. | Jun 17 01:28 |
| oiaohm | Best answer to ridicule is laugh at them for doing it. | Jun 17 01:28 |
| oiaohm | The last time I got into big fights was over the create of the freedesktop project forcing logic into project leads of gnome and kde. | Jun 17 01:30 |
| oiaohm | In that process I did get up some developers nosies. | Jun 17 01:31 |
| oiaohm | Np237 really did not have a clue who is was talking about when he said the merged memu's was a bad idea. He was talking to the person who started that idea. | Jun 17 01:34 |
| neighborlee | oiaohm, correct | Jun 17 01:36 |
| neighborlee | oiaohm, raised christian per se although it wasn't something 2/47 on any level..but I completely and utterly respect other religions good works...and man ghandi is def. one of riches ;) | Jun 17 01:37 |
| neighborlee | 24/7 o_) | Jun 17 01:38 |
| oiaohm | I have never really been a open source coder. | Jun 17 01:39 |
| oiaohm | But I have over my years proded it in different locations and got important things to happen. | Jun 17 01:39 |
| neighborlee | hehe you got up a few of their noses ey ? | Jun 17 01:39 |
| neighborlee | Your sucha radical ;))<grin> | Jun 17 01:40 |
| oiaohm | Particularly when you think at the time Gnome and KDE was basically at war. | Jun 17 01:40 |
| neighborlee | this aruging really bites..we're suppose towork together here on earth..to solve problems we face as a group of humans inhabint a planet we are here to be stewards over | Jun 17 01:40 |
| oiaohm | with the idea of crushing each other. | Jun 17 01:40 |
| neighborlee | tis true | Jun 17 01:40 |
| oiaohm | Talking about both sides working as one really was asking for trouble. | Jun 17 01:41 |
| neighborlee | seems so atm. | Jun 17 01:41 |
| neighborlee | :) | Jun 17 01:41 |
| oiaohm | But someone had todo it. | Jun 17 01:41 |
| neighborlee | :)) | Jun 17 01:41 |
| oiaohm | Being a non developer in either blocked me from being acused of bias. | Jun 17 01:41 |
| oiaohm | Something lot of the open source world over looks there is sometimes a requirement for non developers to talk between developers to make the path forwards. | Jun 17 01:42 |
| oiaohm | Lot of the gnome camp still has the old war footing with KDE. | Jun 17 01:43 |
| oiaohm | KDE is mostly indifferent. | Jun 17 01:43 |
| oiaohm | As a desktop envorment maintainers should be. Is the application good if so expect users to use it. | Jun 17 01:44 |
| oiaohm | I find today if I want to setup a round table on creating a common standard on something. Kde developers no problems. Particular gnome developers resist. | Jun 17 01:46 |
| oiaohm | In time gnome developers will have to give up there war footing and embrace the rest of the open source world. | Jun 17 01:47 |
| neighborlee | oiaohm, hmm non developer non bias..:)) | Jun 17 01:49 |
| neighborlee | oiaohm, developers dont always make the best code...usability reports end users..all makes for cooperation ;) | Jun 17 01:50 |
| neighborlee | oiaohm, nothing wrong with simple..but when it gets in the way of getting work done it is no longer simple or effective.. | Jun 17 01:51 |
| oiaohm | Exactly neighborlee | Jun 17 01:51 |
| neighborlee | oiaohm, linus believed that and I tend to agree..though at the time I was stilll using gnome..seems ages ago now o_0 | Jun 17 01:51 |
| oiaohm | Linus actively promotes developers and users talking to each other. | Jun 17 01:52 |
| oiaohm | Because it so simple when coding to loss the means to see the big picture of what you are doing. | Jun 17 01:52 |
| oiaohm | Its part of the problem the mono developers have. They are so close in they cannot see anything else. | Jun 17 01:53 |
| neighborlee | I hope kde talks are not as divisive and convoluted as some arguemnts ive seen on gnome ML...miguel was insistent on topic on bindings though it took reminding him often it seems that that was not the idea ...makes you wonder what else he ..confused... | Jun 17 01:53 |
| neighborlee | im referring to 2006 ML conversation-- | Jun 17 01:55 |
| neighborlee | OLD yes but something I wasn't aware of... | Jun 17 01:55 |
| neighborlee | oiaohm, yes he sure does | Jun 17 01:55 |
| neighborlee | oiaohm, andyes it is ;) | Jun 17 01:55 |
| oiaohm | When you understand human you can see what has gone wrong with mono. | Jun 17 01:56 |
| neighborlee | oiaohm, only they know the reason..we have to deal with the prevenetion and hopefully little fallout | Jun 17 01:56 |
| neighborlee | Discussion would go SO much smooother if only reasoned and sincere..but oh well that will have towait for another time it would seem. | Jun 17 01:57 |
| oiaohm | I see mono getting side swiped by vala and them not having a clue where it came from. | Jun 17 01:57 |
| oiaohm | In war always get worried when the other side appears to stopped. They are normally planning something big. | Jun 17 01:58 |
| oiaohm | neighborlee: history of mistakes in open source world says given enough time the replacement will appear and nuke the defective design off face or earth. | Jun 17 02:01 |
| neighborlee | oiaohm, mm maybe vala yes | Jun 17 02:01 |
| oiaohm | vala with a bytecode on top. | Jun 17 02:02 |
| oiaohm | There is no way mono could keep up with that. | Jun 17 02:02 |
| oiaohm | Where is the bytecode being developed. Funny enough inside gcc and llvm themselves. | Jun 17 02:03 |
| neighborlee | oiaohm, ive not kept up with vala but I will look into it more for sure | Jun 17 02:03 |
| oiaohm | In time mono is doomed. | Jun 17 02:04 |
| oiaohm | Mono developer cannot see this because they have taken there eyes off what is going on. | Jun 17 02:05 |
| neighborlee | :) | Jun 17 02:07 |
| neighborlee | ive just seen Jo's response to his article..on ubuntu forums...he is attacking someone for just having opinion.. | Jun 17 02:08 |
| neighborlee | 2 days ago: | Jun 17 02:08 |
| neighborlee | Originally Posted by UbuKunubi View Post | Jun 17 02:08 |
| neighborlee | AS far as Im concerned I have python and C++, so why yet another language? Whatever reasons others give I see no reason for it. | Jun 17 02:08 |
| neighborlee | Jo: Are you telling Free Software developers what you give them permission to use? | Jun 17 02:08 |
| neighborlee | ouch | Jun 17 02:08 |
| neighborlee | so as you say..viewpoint of mono developers..skewed | Jun 17 02:09 |
| oiaohm | Skewed and they are not seeing what is happening. | Jun 17 02:09 |
| neighborlee | he saw an attack..this poor guys opinion was just that.his own opinion and from what I see..nothing mean or angry | Jun 17 02:09 |
| neighborlee | exactly oiaohm | Jun 17 02:10 |
| neighborlee | brb | Jun 17 02:10 |
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| neighborlee | .. | Jun 17 02:47 |
| oiaohm | http://www.h-online.com/open/SCO-vs-Linux-New-investor-rescues-SCO-from-bankruptcy--/news/113540 Hmm the company that just will not die. | Jun 17 03:05 |
| neighborlee | eesh | Jun 17 03:13 |
| neighborlee | thx for info ;0- | Jun 17 03:13 |
| fewa | geese | Jun 17 03:15 |
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| neighborlee | oiaohm, jo posted URL re: roy and some guy regarding his posting habits ...yet Jo nor any other mono supporter have yet to say a simple yes or no to simple question asked, which was " Can Microsoft sue Mono under any circumstances? ",,,just like here they cant answer the tough questions so they redirect instead . | Jun 17 03:30 |
| neighborlee | oiaohm, http://ubuntuforums.org/showthread.php?t=1186859 < from here | Jun 17 03:31 |
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| oiaohm | Once you know the game is not so simple to spot neighborlee. Cannot answer human nature kicks in to redirect. | Jun 17 04:08 |
| neighborlee | yes | Jun 17 04:08 |
| oiaohm | The art is spot it and dropping to logic. | Jun 17 04:10 |
| oiaohm | And logical trap. | Jun 17 04:10 |
| oiaohm | traps | Jun 17 04:10 |
| oiaohm | Solid defience case cannot be broken by either. | Jun 17 04:11 |
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| fewa | http://arstechnica.com/web/news/2009/06/opera-hoping-to-reinvent-the-web-by-making-browser-a-server.ars thats kinda cool | Jun 17 04:14 |
| fewa | I like applications that use the internet as it was intended | Jun 17 04:14 |
| neighborlee | Boycott Novell and Co. Trying to Poison the Ubuntu Community? < then this on 'recurring ' discussions on ubuntu...again..redirect into hate and as noted earlier we win but I suspect people here already know about this ? | Jun 17 04:14 |
| neighborlee | hm interesting | Jun 17 04:14 |
| ThistleWeb | fewa: I saw that earlier, it sounds interesting | Jun 17 04:14 |
| fewa | end-2-end FTW | Jun 17 04:14 |
| ThistleWeb | I'm gradually warming to Opera, Firefox has some annoying quirks that keep making me look at alternatives | Jun 17 04:15 |
| fewa | it is goo for it to be easier for users to host their own service | Jun 17 04:15 |
| neighborlee | oiaohm, yup | Jun 17 04:15 |
| fewa | I dont youch opera, i like FOSS | Jun 17 04:15 |
| neighborlee | well long as opera supports ogg | Jun 17 04:15 |
| neighborlee | firefox 3.5b4 > does...headway cant be made if we dont try at least to support and use ogg where we can ;) | Jun 17 04:16 |
| fewa | I wonder if it integrates bonjour/zeroconf/avahi? | Jun 17 04:16 |
| oiaohm | fewa standard following is more important than closed and open source. | Jun 17 04:16 |
| oiaohm | opera does do there best to follow standards. | Jun 17 04:17 |
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| ThistleWeb | oiaohm: yep Opera seem to constantly rate high on standards compliance | Jun 17 04:18 |
| ThistleWeb | higher usually than my beloved Firefox most of the time :( | Jun 17 04:18 |
| oiaohm | Remember netscape navigator a closed source program is where firefox started from. | Jun 17 04:18 |
| oiaohm | If opera went under like netscape did it could become the next foss browser. | Jun 17 04:19 |
| oiaohm | We don't need to be abusive to closed source companies that do the right things. | Jun 17 04:19 |
| oiaohm | Thinking how rare they are. | Jun 17 04:19 |
| neighborlee | like nvidia | Jun 17 04:20 |
| oiaohm | Nvidia has done a lot of things wrong | Jun 17 04:20 |
| oiaohm | Nvidia caused the break up of one of the projects that was started to sort out the X11 back end problems neighborlee. | Jun 17 04:21 |
| fewa | oiaohm, old netscape code was completely scraped | Jun 17 04:22 |
| fewa | it was completely rewritten | Jun 17 04:22 |
| oiaohm | It still provided a design base fewa | Jun 17 04:22 |
| fewa | and a feature base | Jun 17 04:22 |
| fewa | ie <blink> | Jun 17 04:22 |
| oiaohm | Companies like opera are rare. It truly does have a clean history. | Jun 17 04:23 |
| fewa | good software | Jun 17 04:23 |
| fewa | support the internet principals of standards and end-2-end | Jun 17 04:24 |
| oiaohm | What make opera even rarer is that its closed source. | Jun 17 04:25 |
| oiaohm | They have avoid the temption closed source give them to go there own path. | Jun 17 04:25 |
| oiaohm | Ok so they are not FOSS. The sad point is there are some Foss projects that are worse behaved than opera. | Jun 17 04:27 |
| ThistleWeb | at the risk of being accused of being a troll (I know, anyone is only a few sentences away from it here) I have a counterpoint which could easily be made against one of the points in this reader piece > http://boycottnovell.com/2009/06/16/business-unethical-ms/ | Jun 17 04:29 |
| ThistleWeb | the point of why Microsoft would spend a lot of money developing stuff like IE then just give it away in Windows | Jun 17 04:30 |
| ThistleWeb | if you pay a lot of money for a Windows licence, the more stuff you get pre-installed with the Microsoft brand makes it appear better value for money and less of a bare bones purchase | Jun 17 04:31 |
| oiaohm | IE is basically not free. Read its EULA by its EULA its not legal to use it in wine. | Jun 17 04:32 |
| ThistleWeb | if your PC can do basic tasks like surf the net, send email, send PMs, play music and video but you have to go find and install those apps yourself it could lessen the out-of-the-box value for money perception | Jun 17 04:32 |
| oiaohm | Again read the EULA's. | Jun 17 04:32 |
| ThistleWeb | I never said it was | Jun 17 04:32 |
| ThistleWeb | it comes with windows | Jun 17 04:33 |
| ThistleWeb | bundled | Jun 17 04:33 |
| oiaohm | Basically its a myth MS is giving them away. | Jun 17 04:33 |
| oiaohm | Because the EULA on them basically say they are part of windows. | Jun 17 04:33 |
| ThistleWeb | ok, if you wanna get pedantic, read ly last few comments with your onboard spellchecker and replace "free" with bundled" | Jun 17 04:33 |
| oiaohm | Its more we have to correct the wrong idea ThistleWeb. | Jun 17 04:34 |
| oiaohm | Yes it a really heavily marketed wrong idea. | Jun 17 04:34 |
| ThistleWeb | we know the stuff Microsoft do, but many who read that article are gonna look for ways to point out how it's wrong, or how it's true but acceptable | Jun 17 04:34 |
| ThistleWeb | that was an obvious counterpoint I thought of when I read it | Jun 17 04:35 |
| ThistleWeb | I don't hold that position, but it's obvious that it will be used | Jun 17 04:35 |
| oiaohm | Also vista install disks are a good one against that too. | Jun 17 04:36 |
| oiaohm | All the applications are on the disk just you can only install them all if you have the right key. | Jun 17 04:37 |
| ThistleWeb | oiaohm: which is every proprietary app ont he planet | Jun 17 04:37 |
| ThistleWeb | like Photoshop | Jun 17 04:37 |
| ThistleWeb | or Dreamweaver | Jun 17 04:37 |
| ThistleWeb | if you have a serial it will install | Jun 17 04:38 |
| oiaohm | So if the applications were free why are some of them only given with particular keys. | Jun 17 04:38 |
| oiaohm | Photoshop and dreamweaver don't try to claim the parts are free. | Jun 17 04:38 |
| ThistleWeb | again, you could argue that you're paying for them in more expensive versions of Vista | Jun 17 04:38 |
| oiaohm | So you are buying them | Jun 17 04:38 |
| oiaohm | So they are not free. | Jun 17 04:38 |
| ThistleWeb | that if you paid for a bigger version of Vista, you get a key which enables you to install them | Jun 17 04:38 |
| oiaohm | So MS is not giving them way. | Jun 17 04:39 |
| ThistleWeb | they are free with more expensive versions of vista, whats the difference between versions of Vista? Features | Jun 17 04:39 |
| oiaohm | MS is just hidding the fact you are buying them. | Jun 17 04:39 |
| ThistleWeb | features and functions | Jun 17 04:39 |
| ThistleWeb | if those need installed separately, so be it, buying that version enables you to install them | Jun 17 04:40 |
| oiaohm | The percentage of the higher price is paying for the more applications and features you can install. | Jun 17 04:40 |
| oiaohm | So not free. | Jun 17 04:40 |
| oiaohm | It never was free. | Jun 17 04:41 |
| oiaohm | Its just a myth MS has managed to make people believe. | Jun 17 04:41 |
| ThistleWeb | which means there's only one legit version of Vista | Jun 17 04:41 |
| ThistleWeb | everything else is bundles of software | Jun 17 04:41 |
| oiaohm | Yep. | Jun 17 04:41 |
| fewa | ThistleWeb, its called tying | Jun 17 04:42 |
| fewa | and its illegal | Jun 17 04:42 |
| ThistleWeb | I know all this, I'm pointing out a counter argument people will use when reading that article | Jun 17 04:42 |
| oiaohm | And its a dead man walking arguement. | Jun 17 04:43 |
| oiaohm | MS created the myth so people would not wake up its tying. | Jun 17 04:43 |
| fewa | they also tye with computers so people think windows is free | Jun 17 04:49 |
| ThistleWeb | fewa: yeah that's a lot more easy to show people, and impossible to counter | Jun 17 04:50 |
| fewa | just tell them their computer would have cost what $70 less without windows | Jun 17 04:50 |
| ThistleWeb | the whole "if we allow PCs to be sold without an OS, people will just pirate Windows" has been played to death and is as bogus as it was years ago | Jun 17 04:50 |
| oiaohm | Particularly when companies like dell bundle crapware to offset the complete cost of windows. | Jun 17 04:51 |
| oiaohm | Yep a Dell machine is 25 dollars more without windows. | Jun 17 04:51 |
| ThistleWeb | oiaohm: yep | Jun 17 04:51 |
| fewa | http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2009/06/16/rhode-island-will-license_n_216450.html | Jun 17 04:51 |
| oiaohm | Linux does not have enough cost offseting crap to win. | Jun 17 04:51 |
| oiaohm | Yet | Jun 17 04:52 |
| fewa | dell mini has yahoo all over it | Jun 17 04:52 |
| ThistleWeb | Linux also has the disadvantage (from the vendors perspective) of not being able to sell anti-virus, photo suites etc along with it and take a cut off of each app, or the repeat value of a repair when the PC is hosed | Jun 17 04:53 |
| fewa | ThistleWeb, Linux is not immune from any of that | Jun 17 04:54 |
| oiaohm | anti-virus bit is being worked on. | Jun 17 04:54 |
| fewa | in fact, its much easier to do whatever you want | Jun 17 04:54 |
| fewa | well yeah, anybody who buys a linux anti-virus is stupid | Jun 17 04:54 |
| ThistleWeb | when your average Linux distro comes with a host of software already pre-installed like OpenOffice, Gimp etc it's hard to sell them something | Jun 17 04:54 |
| fewa | the anti-virus companies will probably start subsidizing viruses to get the market going | Jun 17 04:54 |
| neighborlee | oiaohm, well I basically meant ..closed source but at least great support overall for foss...until some better driver is here anyway | Jun 17 04:54 |
| oiaohm | Anti-virus companies are working on adding realtime scanning support to Linux kernel. | Jun 17 04:54 |
| fewa | oiaohm, stupid | Jun 17 04:55 |
| fewa | maybe release a module, but dont put that shit in the kernel | Jun 17 04:55 |
| oiaohm | But some companies have company policies that all computers must run real-time scanning fewa. | Jun 17 04:55 |
| fewa | it dumb | Jun 17 04:55 |
| oiaohm | Hang over effects from windows. | Jun 17 04:55 |
| fewa | just require all executables to be signed | Jun 17 04:55 |
| oiaohm | We know it dumb. | Jun 17 04:55 |
| fewa | that actually adds some security | Jun 17 04:55 |
| ThistleWeb | they could of course take something like Ubuntu and strip out stuff so they can sell it, but I don't think they'd retain a good customer relationship when the customer finds they paid for something they could have just ticked and installed in Synaptic for free | Jun 17 04:56 |
| fewa | not much, because of scripting languages, but still a little | Jun 17 04:56 |
| oiaohm | Same realtime scanning interface can be used to do kernel independant executable signing fewa | Jun 17 04:56 |
| oiaohm | Its not useless tech for Linux kernel. | Jun 17 04:56 |
| fewa | secuirty after the fact is useless | Jun 17 04:57 |
| fewa | its completely broken | Jun 17 04:57 |
| oiaohm | Working real time monitoring of filesystem has many uses. | Jun 17 04:57 |
| oiaohm | Anti-virus companies first wanted to put in a hook just for anti-virus. | Jun 17 04:57 |
| oiaohm | That got shot down for being insane. | Jun 17 04:58 |
| fewa | anti-virus companies like a insecure OS, with large after-the-fact f"fixes" | Jun 17 04:58 |
| ThistleWeb | people are trained on Windows, they've been trained to need an AV app | Jun 17 04:58 |
| oiaohm | Now end result will be Linux machines sold with anti-virus software. | Jun 17 04:58 |
| ThistleWeb | in some cases they wont move to an OS without one, even if you tell them it aint needed | Jun 17 04:58 |
| oiaohm | So make Linux more profitable for OEM's. | Jun 17 04:58 |
| fewa | but the linux security model is not broken | Jun 17 04:58 |
| fewa | there is no need | Jun 17 04:58 |
| oiaohm | I know there is no need. | Jun 17 04:59 |
| ThistleWeb | so they will buy it, even if it offers protection from a non-existant threat | Jun 17 04:59 |
| oiaohm | Its not like a person need a trail version of MS office either fewa | Jun 17 04:59 |
| ThistleWeb | sad but true | Jun 17 04:59 |
| fewa | but i wont, so i dont care, please keep that crap out of my kernel | Jun 17 04:59 |
| fewa | instead real security likr apparmor etc | Jun 17 05:00 |
| ThistleWeb | Microsoft have done some things well, but not things you'd be proud of; like training people to be afraid of their PCs | Jun 17 05:00 |
| oiaohm | It also can be used for indexing services fewa. | Jun 17 05:00 |
| oiaohm | Anti-virus will stay userspace and removeable. | Jun 17 05:00 |
| fewa | we have inotify for a reason | Jun 17 05:00 |
| oiaohm | Cleanly. | Jun 17 05:00 |
| oiaohm | inotify and dnotify conflit with each other. | Jun 17 05:00 |
| fewa | dnotify is deprecated | Jun 17 05:00 |
| oiaohm | What the anti-virus guys are fixing. | Jun 17 05:00 |
| oiaohm | dnotify can do features inotify cannot. | Jun 17 05:01 |
| oiaohm | New system will basically replace both. | Jun 17 05:01 |
| oiaohm | So we will have one that works. | Jun 17 05:01 |
| fewa | Microsoft wants to turn themselves into priests | Jun 17 05:01 |
| fewa | create an insuure OS so they can then tell people what the yneed to fix the problems Microsoft created | Jun 17 05:02 |
| oiaohm | If the antivirus companies want to do the work to fix up the inotify and dnotify problems I will leave it to them. | Jun 17 05:02 |
| oiaohm | You just have to except some time in the feature Linux machines will ship with some crap that we will have to remove. | Jun 17 05:03 |
| oiaohm | Just to improve OEM's bottom lines. | Jun 17 05:04 |
| fewa | or you can just use a distro CD | Jun 17 05:04 |
| fewa | just like people do with windows | Jun 17 05:04 |
| fewa | replace shitty EEE pc soft, etc | Jun 17 05:05 |
| oiaohm | That is still getting rid of the crap. | Jun 17 05:05 |
| fewa | its differnt however | Jun 17 05:05 |
| oiaohm | Just the brute force version of uninstall. | Jun 17 05:05 |
| oiaohm | Is the result not the same you removed it fewa | Jun 17 05:05 |
| fewa | install from scratch means you know where it came from, MD5 etc | Jun 17 05:05 |
| oiaohm | Ie you no longer have the problem stuff. | Jun 17 05:06 |
| fewa | ^^^ | Jun 17 05:06 |
| *DaemonMDV (n=ryan@c-67-173-86-85.hsd1.in.comcast.net) has joined #boycottnovell | Jun 17 05:07 | |
| oiaohm | Its exaclty like me imaging dell machines on turn up. | Jun 17 05:07 |
| DaemonMDV | now I've ended up with Mono in Wine too | Jun 17 05:07 |
| oiaohm | Boss asked why after he saw that it was cheeper that way it was very much that is stupid. | Jun 17 05:07 |
| DaemonMDV | to run an MP3 optimizer utility | Jun 17 05:07 |
| DaemonMDV | ugggh | Jun 17 05:07 |
| fewa | DaemonMDV, you dont need to "optimize" | Jun 17 05:08 |
| fewa | your a codec ricer | Jun 17 05:08 |
| DaemonMDV | WinMP3Packer | Jun 17 05:08 |
| oiaohm | Exactly how do you optimize a mp3. | Jun 17 05:08 |
| DaemonMDV | it just sorts out the frames and compresses them more efficiently | Jun 17 05:08 |
| DaemonMDV | doesn't damage the file | Jun 17 05:08 |
| DaemonMDV | I've noticed anywhere from 4-6% file size reduction on VBR 0 LAME | Jun 17 05:09 |
| DaemonMDV | which is worth running them through that | Jun 17 05:09 |
| DaemonMDV | it's another 20-30 albums on my player for "free" | Jun 17 05:10 |
| oiaohm | Ok how many days are you aim at having on your player DaemonMDV | Jun 17 05:11 |
| DaemonMDV | hehe | Jun 17 05:11 |
| DaemonMDV | storage is cheap, not free | Jun 17 05:11 |
| ThistleWeb | he don't actually use it, he jas a coding fetish | Jun 17 05:12 |
| ThistleWeb | it's the coding that counts | Jun 17 05:12 |
| DaemonMDV | http://www.tower.com/indestructible-disturbed-vinyl/wapi/112095975 | Jun 17 05:38 |
| DaemonMDV | there you go | Jun 17 05:38 |
| DaemonMDV | :P | Jun 17 05:38 |
| DaemonMDV | vinyl rips take about 4 times the space of CD rips in WAV or FLAC | Jun 17 05:39 |
| DaemonMDV | it's pretty wicked | Jun 17 05:39 |
| M$ fan, Preston Gralla, thinks M$ is being greedy with Vista 7 pricing and that the market will be handed to GNU/Linux because XP is not a modern OS http://blogs.computerworld.com/will_microsoft_hand_the_netbook_market_to_linux | Jun 17 05:40 | |
| DaemonMDV | CD audio is already heavily compressed | Jun 17 05:41 |
| M$ has obviously retarded the entire netbook market | Jun 17 05:41 | |
| DaemonMDV | that's what makes reading those "Stereophile" articles so damned funny | Jun 17 05:41 |
| but they won't be able to keep it up. | Jun 17 05:41 | |
| DaemonMDV | it's always people who listen to shittty recordings from the 60s that claim to be able to tell the CD from the record | Jun 17 05:42 |
| fat cat Maddoff to escape punishment? http://www.reuters.com/article/domesticNews/idUSTRE55F77420090617 | Jun 17 05:43 | |
| *DaemonMDV has no idea why they're trying to sell Disturbed on vinyl records | Jun 17 05:43 | |
| DaemonMDV | do they think my generation gives a flying fuck? | Jun 17 05:43 |
| fewa | DaemonMDV, you obviously do | Jun 17 05:43 |
| DaemonMDV | do they think that anyone born after 1970 does? | Jun 17 05:44 |
| fewa | you | Jun 17 05:44 |
| fewa | or you wouldnt be talking about it | Jun 17 05:44 |
| spending the rest of his life in prison, the SEC slaps his wrist | Jun 17 05:44 | |
| DaemonMDV | OK I'll rephrase | Jun 17 05:44 |
| DaemonMDV | Why would anyone pay $43 for a vinyl album of Disturbed? | Jun 17 05:44 |
| fewa | twitter, WTF | Jun 17 05:44 |
| ThistleWeb | Maddoff could always be employed by the FCC as someone who knows how to game the system, so therefor he can spot others who try it | Jun 17 05:45 |
| SEC, Secure Equities Crime | Jun 17 05:45 | |
| fewa | he defrauded $65, he belongs in jail | Jun 17 05:45 |
| fewa | *$65 billion | Jun 17 05:45 |
| fewa | hehe | Jun 17 05:45 |
| DaemonMDV | Barnard Madoff is just a greedy Jew | Jun 17 05:45 |
| ThistleWeb | given a system which works on favours and money, who knows | Jun 17 05:45 |
| DaemonMDV | and small potatoes compared to half the shit going on in this country | Jun 17 05:45 |
| fewa | DaemonMDV, tale your racism somewhere else | Jun 17 05:46 |
| fewa | *take | Jun 17 05:46 |
| DaemonMDV | I think he deserves all the money | Jun 17 05:46 |
| DaemonMDV | and to go free | Jun 17 05:46 |
| DaemonMDV | he obviously earned it | Jun 17 05:46 |
| ThistleWeb | DaemonMDV: what does him being Jewish have to do with anything? | Jun 17 05:46 |
| Gee, do you think text messages are a rip-off? http://www.latimes.com/business/la-fi-texting-rates17-2009jun17,0,7157342.story | Jun 17 05:46 | |
| DaemonMDV | Madoff earned ever ycent | Jun 17 05:46 |
| DaemonMDV | his "victims" are the criminals | Jun 17 05:46 |
| DaemonMDV | criminally stupid | Jun 17 05:46 |
| ->"[US] Justice Department to scrutinize competitiveness in the cellphone industry, pointing to a 100% increase in some text messaging charges by four companies that control most of the market" | Jun 17 05:47 | |
| about time | Jun 17 05:47 | |
| DaemonMDV | Twitter: I guarantee if you give me a million dollars no questions asked I'll double it | Jun 17 05:47 |
| DaemonMDV | just don't ask how | Jun 17 05:47 |
| DaemonMDV | I'll be off helping my next sucke.....errrr customer now | Jun 17 05:48 |
| DaemonMDV | brb | Jun 17 05:48 |
| DaemonMDV | :P | Jun 17 05:48 |
| DaemonMDV | obviously Madoff's victims were either greedy and didn't care that there was something fishy going on | Jun 17 05:56 |
| DaemonMDV | or not the sharpest tools in the shed | Jun 17 05:56 |
| DaemonMDV | not the brightest crayons in the box | Jun 17 05:56 |
| DaemonMDV | a few fries short of a happy meal | Jun 17 05:56 |
| DaemonMDV | :) | Jun 17 05:56 |
| DaemonMDV | any financial advisor will tell you that there's no such thing as a "guaranteed" return on investment | Jun 17 05:57 |
| DaemonMDV | so that alone should have red flagged the whole fucking thing | Jun 17 05:57 |
| DaemonMDV | everyone that didn't deserve to be cheated would have walked away at that point | Jun 17 05:57 |
| Omar871 | Hi all | Jun 17 05:59 |
| Omar871 | Guys, is Wingware open source? | Jun 17 06:04 |
| *Omar871 has quit ("Leaving.") | Jun 17 06:09 | |
| hmmm, don't know wingware. | Jun 17 06:11 | |
| No privacy in UK blogging. http://www.theregister.co.uk/2009/06/16/times_blogger_anonymity/ | Jun 17 06:12 | |
| DaemonMDV | I think out of my entire collection, my favorite still has to be the Alternative Polka | Jun 17 06:12 |
| DaemonMDV | by Weird Al | Jun 17 06:12 |
| DaemonMDV | http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ni632sTHZWU | Jun 17 06:12 |
| judge says bloggers should not expect to remain anonymous because “blogging is essentially a public rather than a private activity”. | Jun 17 06:12 | |
| nice | Jun 17 06:12 | |
| by that reasoning, there is no anonymous contribution to public life. | Jun 17 06:13 | |
| fewa | actually there are guaranteed returns on investment | Jun 17 06:14 |
| fewa | thats what most investments are | Jun 17 06:14 |
| DaemonMDV | no there aren't | Jun 17 06:14 |
| DaemonMDV | no it's not | Jun 17 06:14 |
| fewa | it just matters who you are investing in | Jun 17 06:14 |
| fewa | 5% savings rate is a guaranteed return on investment | Jun 17 06:15 |
| fewa | i mean a CD | Jun 17 06:15 |
| DaemonMDV | once someone else has your money anything can happen to it | Jun 17 06:15 |
| fewa | yeah, but its guaranteed | Jun 17 06:15 |
| DaemonMDV | government debt is the "most guaranteed" | Jun 17 06:15 |
| fewa | just matters who is guaranting it | Jun 17 06:15 |
| DaemonMDV | but that doesn't help since they steal back erverything you make in interest with inflation | Jun 17 06:15 |
| DaemonMDV | and more | Jun 17 06:15 |
| fewa | who you can sue if they dont have the money | Jun 17 06:15 |
| DaemonMDV | s oyou're basically paying them to loan them your money | Jun 17 06:15 |
| fewa | its still a guarantee | Jun 17 06:16 |
| DaemonMDV | a guarantee that you'll have less money | Jun 17 06:16 |
| DaemonMDV | than you gave them | Jun 17 06:16 |
| DaemonMDV | yay! | Jun 17 06:16 |
| fewa | no | Jun 17 06:16 |
| DaemonMDV | how can you lsoe? | Jun 17 06:16 |
| fewa | a empty guarantee that is fraud because they are also lying | Jun 17 06:16 |
| DaemonMDV | *lose | Jun 17 06:16 |
| fewa | but the guarantee part is not a lie | Jun 17 06:16 |
| fewa | as they are responsible to get you your returns | Jun 17 06:16 |
| fewa | that they promised | Jun 17 06:16 |
| fewa | they just dont have the money | Jun 17 06:16 |
| DaemonMDV | you lose more money by buying government bonds than you get in interest | Jun 17 06:16 |
| fewa | DaemonMDV, no you dont | Jun 17 06:17 |
| DaemonMDV | if inflation goes up 6% that year and you made 2% on interest | Jun 17 06:17 |
| fewa | oh yeah | Jun 17 06:17 |
| DaemonMDV | you're behind quite a bit | Jun 17 06:17 |
| fewa | i didnt read the whole sentence | Jun 17 06:17 |
| fewa | its about inflation rate | Jun 17 06:17 |
| fewa | but right now money is way too cheap | Jun 17 06:17 |
| fewa | way, way too cheap | Jun 17 06:17 |
| DaemonMDV | money is not worth the paper it's printed on | Jun 17 06:17 |
| DaemonMDV | literally | Jun 17 06:17 |
| DaemonMDV | it's only worth whatever the federal reserve says it is worth | Jun 17 06:18 |
| DaemonMDV | and it's only money cause that's the law | Jun 17 06:18 |
| DaemonMDV | not exactly a solid foundation | Jun 17 06:18 |
| DaemonMDV | so don't worry, every time you get ahead, they'll print more money and steal it all back from you | Jun 17 06:19 |
| DaemonMDV | but it looks like you have the same amount | Jun 17 06:19 |
| DaemonMDV | if you can believe it, the Playstation 3's debut price was not actually the most expensive gaming console ever | Jun 17 06:21 |
| DaemonMDV | in October 1977, the Atari 2600 cost $199 US dollars | Jun 17 06:21 |
| DaemonMDV | which is $699.21 in 2008 dollars | Jun 17 06:21 |
| DaemonMDV | $3.51 today is $1 in 1977 | Jun 17 06:22 |
| DaemonMDV | that means that currency is worth 3.5 times less | Jun 17 06:22 |
| DaemonMDV | than it was 22 years ago | Jun 17 06:23 |
| DaemonMDV | $21.52 in todays money is $1 in 1913 | Jun 17 06:24 |
| DaemonMDV | when the Federal Reserve was installed | Jun 17 06:24 |
| DaemonMDV | so ever since they debased the currency, that's how much wealth the banks have stolen from Americans | Jun 17 06:24 |
| DaemonMDV | but in 1813 to 1913 inflation only doubled | Jun 17 06:25 |
| DaemonMDV | that was before the central bank | Jun 17 06:25 |
| DaemonMDV | in that hundred years with no Fed, inflation doubled | Jun 17 06:26 |
| DaemonMDV | in the 100 years since the Fed, inflation will have been more like 2300% | Jun 17 06:26 |
| DaemonMDV | that shows you how the central bank has eaten away at America like a cancer | Jun 17 06:26 |
| DaemonMDV | every politician that has threatened them has either had an "unfortunate accident" | Jun 17 06:27 |
| DaemonMDV | or bought off | Jun 17 06:27 |
| DaemonMDV | so Bernie Madoff is like an amateur compared to these people | Jun 17 06:28 |
| DaemonMDV | if we're sending him to prison, we need to send all the bankers to Federal Pound-Me-In-The-Ass prison too | Jun 17 06:28 |
| neighborlee | I tend to think of prison much the same way as was depicted in 'Kpac'...I realize we're not there 'yet' but the idea is humane....someone commits a crime..who would in their right mind do it knowing what awaits them, and the harm it does the families involved..to me thats just insane..we protect insanity because well stuff happens..society isn't perfect and we can't demand perfection when atm NO ONE can throw the 'first s | Jun 17 06:40 |
| neighborlee | tone' ...else we are no better imho than those of witch trials...without compassion what is left o_0 | Jun 17 06:40 |
| neighborlee | kpax | Jun 17 06:40 |
| neighborlee | o_0- | Jun 17 06:40 |
| neighborlee | anyway- | Jun 17 06:40 |
| neighborlee | :) | Jun 17 06:40 |
| DaemonMDV | we need to give the banksters death by garbage compacter | Jun 17 06:41 |
| DaemonMDV | if you ask me | Jun 17 06:41 |
| neighborlee | I know you dont mean that | Jun 17 06:41 |
| DaemonMDV | oh but I do | Jun 17 06:41 |
| neighborlee | anger makes us ...well you know.. | Jun 17 06:41 |
| DaemonMDV | crush them slowly | Jun 17 06:41 |
| DaemonMDV | so I can hear them scream | Jun 17 06:41 |
| DaemonMDV | :D | Jun 17 06:41 |
| neighborlee | hehe | Jun 17 06:41 |
| neighborlee | hey venting is good..keep it out rather than in where it does harm ;))..well in theory anyway;)) | Jun 17 06:41 |
| *DaemonMDV wonders why FAAC gives such abysmal results | Jun 17 06:42 | |
| *neonfloss (n=neon@66.212.183.50) has joined #boycottnovell | Jun 17 06:42 | |
| DaemonMDV | they could port over gsypycho | Jun 17 06:42 |
| DaemonMDV | it is LGPL licensed | Jun 17 06:42 |
| fewa | why isnt there a ALGPL licence? | Jun 17 06:43 |
| DaemonMDV | a what? | Jun 17 06:43 |
| neighborlee | wth ? ;) | Jun 17 06:43 |
| DaemonMDV | maybe I'm just used to hearing MP3 after 14 years of it | Jun 17 06:44 |
| neighborlee | meaning what..dont like any other format ? ;)) | Jun 17 06:44 |
| fewa | vorbis is superior | Jun 17 06:44 |
| DaemonMDV | meh, MP4 is supposed to be better, and of course I know it all depends on how good the encoder is | Jun 17 06:45 |
| DaemonMDV | but I think MP4 is more to get people using something that will stay patented longer | Jun 17 06:45 |
| DaemonMDV | than it is an upgrade | Jun 17 06:45 |
| DaemonMDV | cause MP3 really isn't all that bad | Jun 17 06:45 |
| fewa | ie vorbis | Jun 17 06:45 |
| neighborlee | fewa, im counting on it...foss is the great equaliser | Jun 17 06:45 |
| DaemonMDV | Vorbis isn't all that great | Jun 17 06:45 |
| fewa | and vorbis is a great codec | Jun 17 06:45 |
| DaemonMDV | I wasn't really impressed | Jun 17 06:45 |
| fewa | capable of super low data rates | Jun 17 06:45 |
| DaemonMDV | you have to allocate more bits to the stream to compensate for how badly it assigns them | Jun 17 06:46 |
| DaemonMDV | then you end up with bigger files | Jun 17 06:46 |
| fewa | either mp3 or vorbis | Jun 17 06:46 |
| DaemonMDV | Vorbis has never really caught up to LAME | Jun 17 06:46 |
| DaemonMDV | and it seems like the only thing that even gets it close is AoTuv | Jun 17 06:46 |
| neighborlee | can you guys really tell the difference on ogg files that weren't converted ? | Jun 17 06:46 |
| DaemonMDV | and Xiph is so god damned slow at backporting from them | Jun 17 06:46 |
| DaemonMDV | :) | Jun 17 06:47 |
| neighborlee | I mean human ear shouldn't be able to I hear ? | Jun 17 06:47 |
| neighborlee | <har> | Jun 17 06:47 |
| neighborlee | :) | Jun 17 06:47 |
| fewa | neighborlee, watch that H.264+mp3 vs theora+vorbis demo | Jun 17 06:47 |
| fewa | from xiph | Jun 17 06:47 |
| neighborlee | hm kk thx I shall | Jun 17 06:47 |
| DaemonMDV | I'm not real impressed with Xiph.org | Jun 17 06:47 |
| DaemonMDV | the only one of their format's I recommend is FLAC if you need a lossless copy of something | Jun 17 06:48 |
| DaemonMDV | and even that is only more because the rest have licenses that suck or only work well on Windows or Mac | Jun 17 06:48 |
| DaemonMDV | or have a really shoddy decoding process that takes all kinds of CPU | Jun 17 06:48 |
| neighborlee | i'd have to do a filesize vs quality comparison | Jun 17 06:48 |
| neighborlee | but then also have a portable device that supports the playback | Jun 17 06:48 |
| neighborlee | we're lucky we have ogg as it is ;) | Jun 17 06:48 |
| DaemonMDV | there's a lack of good lossless formats, and FLAC jsut happens to be the one that works well enough on all counts | Jun 17 06:49 |
| DaemonMDV | its compression level is kind of lacking | Jun 17 06:49 |
| DaemonMDV | but oh well | Jun 17 06:49 |
| fewa | http://people.xiph.org/~greg/video/ytcompare/comparison.html | Jun 17 06:49 |
| DaemonMDV | WMA Lossless can compress a lot further | Jun 17 06:49 |
| neighborlee | thx | Jun 17 06:50 |
| DaemonMDV | but there's like no tools to work with those files on Linux | Jun 17 06:50 |
| DaemonMDV | the most you'll be able to do is play them back | Jun 17 06:50 |
| fewa | WMA is crap | Jun 17 06:50 |
| DaemonMDV | WMA lossless isn't bad | Jun 17 06:50 |
| fewa | i rather use a patented but declared codec then one where there are only binary codecs | Jun 17 06:50 |
| DaemonMDV | just in licensing | Jun 17 06:50 |
| DaemonMDV | well, technically you could transcode WMA Lossless to something else on Linux | Jun 17 06:51 |
| fewa | and where "wma" can mean anything | Jun 17 06:51 |
| DaemonMDV | but you'd need VLC to do it for you | Jun 17 06:51 |
| fewa | they will not hesitate to version it and call it the same thing | Jun 17 06:51 |
| DaemonMDV | the worst lossless format I've tried is Monkey's Audio | Jun 17 06:51 |
| DaemonMDV | (APE) | Jun 17 06:51 |
| DaemonMDV | it's fine as long as you don't expect any kind of portable support, ever, and you feel like waiting 5 seconds every time you try to seek | Jun 17 06:52 |
| neighborlee | well been real as usual gents and gals if any..powering down to save energy etc...TTYL and have fun o_0 | Jun 17 06:53 |
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| DaemonMDV | OpenSuse has apparently moved to 8 month releases at some point? | Jun 17 07:15 |
| -BNc/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] Linux-based Autonomous RoboCar from Pino Creator, http://ping.fm/OnxUh | Jun 17 07:47 | |
| schestowitz | Popup blocker arrives in Chromium! http://www.tuxmachines.org/node/37371 | Jun 17 07:59 |
| ThistleWeb | schestowitz: whoohoo, a step closer to being functional in todays interwebs | Jun 17 08:01 |
| ThistleWeb | I quite like the look of Chromium but I'll wait until it has a few more key features before using it | Jun 17 08:02 |
| schestowitz | That stupid troll (Fink) is causing problems: http://www.theregister.co.uk/2009/06/17/ubuntu_email_abuse/ | Jun 17 08:06 |
| schestowitz | And they try to blame me. | Jun 17 08:06 |
| schestowitz | It's like when a band gets blamed because some dude who listens to their music shoots a class. | Jun 17 08:06 |
| schestowitz | ThistleWeb: for me, well.... yesterday I 'fixed' Firefox, finally | Jun 17 08:07 |
| schestowitz | I changed its memory limits | Jun 17 08:07 |
| ThistleWeb | hmm | Jun 17 08:07 |
| schestowitz | Fedora 9 approaches end-of-life http://www.h-online.com/open/Fedora-9-approaches-end-of-life--/news/113537 | Jun 17 08:07 |
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| ThistleWeb | I've been flirting with Opera again over the last few hours as Firefox has some quirky stuff that keeps making me look at other alternatives | Jun 17 08:08 |
| ThistleWeb | maybe clipping it's wings a bit would help on that score | Jun 17 08:08 |
| Omar87 | ThistleWeb: The other alternative is Opera? :D | Jun 17 08:08 |
| ThistleWeb | I get annoyed when right clicking on a link in Firefox it decides I wanted to email the link and opens up Thunderbird, or decides I wanted to evoce DownEmAll | Jun 17 08:09 |
| ThistleWeb | it happens frequently enough to be annoying | Jun 17 08:10 |
| ThistleWeb | totally at random too | Jun 17 08:10 |
| ThistleWeb | sometimes it just opens it in a new tab (which is what I want) or sometimes in a new window which is what I dont want | Jun 17 08:10 |
| Omar87 | ThistleWeb: "The only thing I wish Opera would reveal is a UI that doesn't make me gag." ~Chris Pirillo. | Jun 17 08:11 |
| ThistleWeb | but clipping it's memory would help sort one issue I guess | Jun 17 08:11 |
| ThistleWeb | yeah Operas's UI is very different | Jun 17 08:11 |
| ThistleWeb | it took me a while to feel reasonably comfy with it | Jun 17 08:11 |
| ThistleWeb | to the point where I can atcutally use it | Jun 17 08:11 |
| Omar87 | ThistleWeb: Yeah, your're right about the right-clicking issue. It sucks. | Jun 17 08:12 |
| -BNc/#boycottnovell-[omar_s_hafez] Is desperately looking for experienced Django developers he can work with, learn from.. etc.. -_- | Jun 17 08:12 | |
| ThistleWeb | I still prefer the Firefox UI though, and the Firefox addons | Jun 17 08:12 |
| ThistleWeb | that's why I'm curious about a WebKit version of Firefox, to see if it fixes any of these issues | Jun 17 08:12 |
| Omar87 | ThistleWeb: Yeah. Plus, last time I tried Opera, it was just as heavy if not more. | Jun 17 08:13 |
| ThistleWeb | Opera seems to load pages quicker WITH ads than Firefox does in blocking them | Jun 17 08:13 |
| Omar87 | ThistleWeb: Plus, don't forget that Fire 3.5 is on it's way. :) | Jun 17 08:13 |
| Omar87 | Firefox** | Jun 17 08:13 |
| ThistleWeb | yeah, Opera and Firefox are about the same in RAM | Jun 17 08:13 |
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| schestowitz | On Fedora 11 installation < http://www.happyassassin.net/2009/06/16/on-fedora-11-installation/ > | Jun 17 08:14 |
| Omar87 | ThistleWeb: However, some people say that it's mainly the Addons that make Firefix seem pretty heavy. | Jun 17 08:14 |
| ThistleWeb | Omar87: yeah addons are tempting to put a lot on, and the more you add, the slower it starts, the more ram you use | Jun 17 08:14 |
| ThistleWeb | the more unstable it becomes I'd guess | Jun 17 08:15 |
| ThistleWeb | the right click wouldnt try to assume Downemall if that addon wasn't installed | Jun 17 08:15 |
| Omar87 | schestowitz: Fedora is an amazing distro, except that, its complicated security settings make me wanna snap my laptop into two equal pieces. | Jun 17 08:15 |
| Omar87 | ThistleWeb: Exactly. | Jun 17 08:15 |
| ThistleWeb | Omar87: why equal peices? ain't snapping it in half doing the job by itself without having to measure the breaking point? :P | Jun 17 08:16 |
| Omar87 | ThistleWeb: So, basically all you need to do is choose a couple addons that you use very often, and remove the rest. | Jun 17 08:16 |
| Omar87 | ThistleWeb: LOL. :) | Jun 17 08:17 |
| ThistleWeb | I've used Firefox for so long that I really wanna stick with it, but the annoyances seem to be far too random | Jun 17 08:17 |
| ThistleWeb | it's doing enough to keep me looking for alternates | Jun 17 08:17 |
| ThistleWeb | if you can get your mind around the Opera UI it's a damn nice browser | Jun 17 08:18 |
| ThistleWeb | very quick | Jun 17 08:18 |
| Omar87 | ThistleWeb: Yeah, sometimes it really gets on my nerve too. But that's not very critical ya know. :) | Jun 17 08:18 |
| oiaohm | Happyness should return with firefox 4.0 | Jun 17 08:18 |
| oiaohm | Just happens to be a long way off. | Jun 17 08:18 |
| ThistleWeb | besides, Firefox themes with my GTK theme | Jun 17 08:18 |
| Omar87 | oiaohm: Agreed. | Jun 17 08:18 |
| ThistleWeb | Opera is QT and acts alone | Jun 17 08:18 |
| ThistleWeb | all my QT stuff look like drag queens in a beauty contest | Jun 17 08:19 |
| ThistleWeb | complete with beards | Jun 17 08:19 |
| ThistleWeb | one area which don't help Opera much is the plugins, they're mostly time wasting, useless plugins | Jun 17 08:20 |
| ThistleWeb | last time I flicked through I couldn't find any actual useful ones | Jun 17 08:20 |
| ThistleWeb | compared with Mozilla's plugins, it's night and day | Jun 17 08:21 |
| oiaohm | Firefox lot of its problems come from its extentions. | Jun 17 08:21 |
| oiaohm | Reason why process splitting in 4.0 firefox will make a lot of problems disappear. | Jun 17 08:21 |
| ThistleWeb | oiaohm: yep, the idea being its a basic browser that you add functions you need via addons | Jun 17 08:21 |
| DaemonMDV | yeah, Opera is a good program but unfortunately it uses QT | Jun 17 08:22 |
| DaemonMDV | which doesn't feel right | Jun 17 08:22 |
| Omar87 | Guys, how do I make use of this tremendous amount of followers on twitter? I mean what's a good strategy to make a huge audience out of them? | Jun 17 08:22 |
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| ThistleWeb | Omar87: start by talking to them, they won't bite.....unless you've gotten them from a fetish site fan club | Jun 17 08:22 |
| Omar87 | lol! :D | Jun 17 08:23 |
| ThistleWeb | I'm thinking that with browsers, you just need to think about what you need it to do | Jun 17 08:23 |
| ThistleWeb | Firefox is sooooo tempting to go adding lots of addons, that you may never use | Jun 17 08:24 |
| oiaohm | And all that goes into a single process. | Jun 17 08:24 |
| oiaohm | Taht if any part kick the bucket everything does. | Jun 17 08:24 |
| ThistleWeb | I guess another solution would be to have several different Firefox profiles for different uses, each with a different set of addons installed | Jun 17 08:24 |
| oiaohm | Only real solution is break addons out into there own process. | Jun 17 08:25 |
| oiaohm | So each one can kick the bucket without taking the interface down. | Jun 17 08:25 |
| DaemonMDV | Firefox for Linux is just so damned slow | Jun 17 08:25 |
| DaemonMDV | ugggh | Jun 17 08:25 |
| DaemonMDV | everything else blows right past it | Jun 17 08:25 |
| schestowitz | Let's hope Josselin Mouette doesn't come back to curse | Jun 17 08:25 |
| DaemonMDV | it's mainly limitations in Gecko that are holding Epiphany back | Jun 17 08:26 |
| schestowitz | Eeebuntu vs Ubuntu < http://www.mealldubh.org/index.php/2009/06/14/712/ > <--interesting | Jun 17 08:26 |
| oiaohm | basically everything else uses opengl to avoid X11 issues DaemonMDV. | Jun 17 08:26 |
| DaemonMDV | from what I understand | Jun 17 08:26 |
| oiaohm | Gecko does not use opengl rendering. | Jun 17 08:26 |
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| oiaohm | Either improve X11 or add opengl option to gecko. | Jun 17 08:26 |
| oiaohm | Both will have basically the same effect. | Jun 17 08:26 |
| DaemonMDV | Gecko does not perform well on Linux, but everything uses it because up til now there's been a real shortage of rendering engines under free licenses worth using | Jun 17 08:27 |
| DaemonMDV | Webkit kicks Gecko's ass though | Jun 17 08:27 |
| oiaohm | webkit uses opengl. | Jun 17 08:27 |
| DaemonMDV | so here's hoping GNOME can ditch Gecko and distros can ditch Firefox dependencies | Jun 17 08:27 |
| schestowitz | *LOL* The "Vista 7" meme is spreading some more... | Jun 17 08:27 |
| oiaohm | Really X11 need to be fixed. | Jun 17 08:27 |
| schestowitz | "I am using Vista, 7, and Ubuntu 9.04. " http://diyubuntu.blogspot.com/2009/06/904.html | Jun 17 08:27 |
| schestowitz | Should be I am using Vista 7, and Ubuntu 9.04. " | Jun 17 08:28 |
| schestowitz | in USENET the "Vista 7" phrase caught on better | Jun 17 08:28 |
| DaemonMDV | Firefox hasn't made Linux a priority for a while | Jun 17 08:28 |
| DaemonMDV | it just still so happens to "work" on Linux | Jun 17 08:29 |
| DaemonMDV | but it's clear that Mozilla is not the way forward if they keep up like this | Jun 17 08:29 |
| Omar87 | ThistleWeb: Yeah, but I'm not gonna send a direct message to each one them, I'll just randomly pick a bunch of them. :) | Jun 17 08:29 |
| oiaohm | Little point if you know everything that is broken sometimes it simpler to wait for things to get repaired DaemonMDV | Jun 17 08:29 |
| DaemonMDV | well, distros use Firefox like a pog | Jun 17 08:30 |
| DaemonMDV | even though there's better stuff out there | Jun 17 08:30 |
| DaemonMDV | "Hey, Windows users, you can have Firefox" | Jun 17 08:30 |
| DaemonMDV | "nyaaaaaaah!" | Jun 17 08:30 |
| oiaohm | You saw the improvement just from the kernel fix DaemonMDV | Jun 17 08:30 |
| DaemonMDV | yeah, Linux 2.6.30 also breaks my DVD playback | Jun 17 08:31 |
| DaemonMDV | so it's not like I can use it | Jun 17 08:31 |
| schestowitz | Omar87: "The ICT Association in Jordan (int@j) in corporation with Redhat and Savvytek 'Red Hat Premier Business Partner in the Region' and with support from the USAID-funded SABEQ Program conducted an Open Source Software Workshop titled 'Achieving faster growth and success while reducing spending' on Monday June 15th, 2009 at the Landmark hotel in Amman." http://www.ameinfo.com/200574.html | Jun 17 08:31 |
| schestowitz | That's 2 days ago | Jun 17 08:31 |
| DaemonMDV | Linux has been adding bugs faster than they've been getting fixed for quite some time now | Jun 17 08:32 |
| oiaohm | I got vlc and others working. Requires new libasound. | Jun 17 08:32 |
| -BNc/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] 2.2million children to own laptops by 2012 < http://ping.fm/Rfybr > Probably running Fedora | Jun 17 08:32 | |
| DaemonMDV | it's what happens with anything that has creeping featurism | Jun 17 08:32 |
| oiaohm | Removal of locks kicked a few thing hard. | Jun 17 08:32 |
| DaemonMDV | it's why I flat out won't usually use new kernel releases | Jun 17 08:32 |
| DaemonMDV | I wait for the .1 or .2 before I go ahead | Jun 17 08:33 |
| oiaohm | This case its not the kernel at fault | Jun 17 08:33 |
| oiaohm | Its the support libs. | Jun 17 08:33 |
| ThistleWeb | I'm starting to be dubious about Firefox's security too after the ABP / NoScript issue, then the Microsoft .net Framework addon | Jun 17 08:33 |
| Omar87 | schestowitz: Yes! Savvytek, This is like Red Hat's longest metal arm in the Middle East. They offer everything. Support, training, Red Hat Certifications.. etc:) | Jun 17 08:33 |
| Omar87 | etc.* | Jun 17 08:33 |
| MinceR | schestowitz: might also want to try "vista sp7" :> | Jun 17 08:34 |
| Omar87 | schestowitz: That's cool! | Jun 17 08:34 |
| ThistleWeb | the fact that devs can modify other addons, or can install addons via other routes without permission does raise a security eyebrow | Jun 17 08:34 |
| oiaohm | Early transision always has a few bumps DaemonMDV | Jun 17 08:34 |
| DaemonMDV | things in the kernel generally don't start settling down til a couple months after the one in that series was released | Jun 17 08:34 |
| DaemonMDV | 2.6.29 has an awful lot of bugs | Jun 17 08:34 |
| DaemonMDV | that's just now starting to get better | Jun 17 08:35 |
| oiaohm | 2.6.29 had a lot of transitional code in it. | Jun 17 08:35 |
| oiaohm | Yes that does kinda hurt. | Jun 17 08:35 |
| oiaohm | Things will settle down over the next few kernel releases. Most of the branch merge of RT and Main has been done. | Jun 17 08:36 |
| -BNc/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] Quietly enough, GNU/Linux enters Indian education. http://ping.fm/ZyXFe | Jun 17 08:37 | |
| ThistleWeb | I sometimes think the best way for FOSS to get into institutions is very quietly, replace Microsoft but don't advertise it | Jun 17 08:42 |
| ThistleWeb | that way Microsoft don't know to send any of their enforcers with gifts | Jun 17 08:43 |
| ThistleWeb | smiling thugs who want to make you an offer you can't refuse | Jun 17 08:43 |
| ThistleWeb | that only works when you have no M$ spies in your institution making sure you stay on-message | Jun 17 08:45 |
| ThistleWeb | it also does nothing to show others that FOSS is worthwhile | Jun 17 08:45 |
| ThistleWeb | but it would be funny for Microsoft to send the heavies in suits to school after school in an area when they don't renew their pacts, to find that each one has already switched to all FOSS and won't switch back | Jun 17 08:46 |
| ThistleWeb | "no thank you, we're happy with our BSD / Linux / OpenOffice solution TYVM, surprisingly we're finding it's smoother than we had with you, and it's free" | Jun 17 08:47 |
| oiaohm | Really there is nothing much more on core of linux kernel on near furture that is playing with core of the OS badly. Closest is HWPOSION. Where Linux gains the means to detect defective ram while running and lock defective ram out from being used again. | Jun 17 08:49 |
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| -BNc/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] Analogy Explains Why "Ready for the Desktop" is FUD Pattern http://ping.fm/pKe47 | Jun 17 09:22 | |
| -BNc/#boycottnovell-[_goblin] Openbytes get a reply to the 7 question. http://bit.ly/MVZkC #microsoft #linux #windows | Jun 17 09:32 | |
| -BNc/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] http://ping.fm/3JxB9 "Linux opens a hole new world of freedom that Microsoft does not want you to see or even know about." | Jun 17 09:37 | |
| -BNc/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] Chrome Web Browser Assessed on GNU/Linux http://ping.fm/tj0wx | Jun 17 09:37 | |
| -BNc/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] Midori Web Browser (on GNU/Linux) Gets Tested http://ping.fm/lZP0l | Jun 17 09:37 | |
| -BNc/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] Firefox 3.6 To Have Self-Profiling Extension http://ping.fm/hzSFI | Jun 17 09:37 | |
| -BNc/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] http://ping.fm/nOTwk GNU/Linux Desktop Productivity in Detail. Ignore the Tomboy bits... | Jun 17 09:42 | |
| -BNc/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] Review of the Latest Foresight Linux http://ping.fm/t9llZ | Jun 17 09:42 | |
| -BNc/#boycottnovell-[_goblin] "IE8 - To feed or not to feed?" http://bit.ly/r1owD #microsoft #windows #vista #linux | Jun 17 09:42 | |
| -BNc/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] Fedora 11: "I can now safely proclaim that this latest release is nothing short of remarkable." http://ping.fm/wRKcN | Jun 17 09:47 | |
| -BNc/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] More GNU/Linux Coming to Jordan? http://ping.fm/vXeP0 | Jun 17 09:52 | |
| -BNc/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] Reviews of Ubuntu Satanic Edition 666.6 and Linux Mint 7.0 http://ping.fm/XQQox http://ping.fm/H3TgF | Jun 17 09:52 | |
| -BNc/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] Ubuntu Linux is Added to Open Source Calatog http://ping.fm/sMeCI | Jun 17 09:57 | |
| -BNc/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] Ubuntu GNU/Linux Adds Partnerships http://ping.fm/B04dx | Jun 17 09:57 | |
| -BNc/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] Editor of Many GNU/Linux Sites Moves to PCLinuxOS http://ping.fm/QIOR7 | Jun 17 10:02 | |
| -BNc/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] New Elive and Enlightenment Are Released http://ping.fm/a3skm http://ping.fm/YtDoJ | Jun 17 10:02 | |
| MinceR | lol @ dinner table | Jun 17 10:02 |
| -BNc/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] Introducing BaitNSwitch GNU/Linux http://ping.fm/ue2qQ | Jun 17 10:12 | |
| DaemonMDV | "And to comply with Linux licensing, we'll also offer a free, community edition of our Pricey Linux known as BaitNSwitch Linux." | Jun 17 10:16 |
| DaemonMDV | actually, there's no such requirement | Jun 17 10:16 |
| DaemonMDV | no Linux company is required to make a free (of charge) version of their distribution | Jun 17 10:17 |
| -BNc/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] Linux-based Autonomous RoboCar from Pino Creator http://ping.fm/gFrUg | Jun 17 10:17 | |
| -BNc/#boycottnovell-[trmanco] Gnote 0.5.0 has been released: http://is.gd/14kmh | Jun 17 10:17 | |
| fewa | yeah they can just download centos | Jun 17 10:17 |
| fewa | thats what the article is about | Jun 17 10:17 |
| DaemonMDV | All they have to do is provide source code, and only of the GPL'd components | Jun 17 10:17 |
| DaemonMDV | so they don't even have to provide source for the entire distribution | Jun 17 10:17 |
| DaemonMDV | and they don't have to make the source available to everyone | Jun 17 10:18 |
| fewa | but they cant prohibit redistrobution | Jun 17 10:18 |
| DaemonMDV | only the people that received the binaries | Jun 17 10:18 |
| fewa | by anyone they give it to | Jun 17 10:18 |
| fewa | including the binaries | Jun 17 10:18 |
| DaemonMDV | so if Red Hat wanted to be pricks, they could require their customers to sign in to download their source RPMs | Jun 17 10:18 |
| fewa | but once someone downloads a rpm from red hat they can then redistrobute it to anyone | Jun 17 10:19 |
| fewa | without asking red hat | Jun 17 10:19 |
| DaemonMDV | right | Jun 17 10:19 |
| fewa | thats freedom 2, the freedom to help your neighbor | Jun 17 10:19 |
| DaemonMDV | but there's no requirement for them to have a free version (like Fedora) or to make their source repo available to everyone | Jun 17 10:19 |
| DaemonMDV | they just do that | Jun 17 10:20 |
| fewa | but once one person buys it they can distrobute it to anyone | Jun 17 10:20 |
| DaemonMDV | right, but it would kind of put a crimp on the CentOS people if they had to have a Red Hat Network subscription to get the source RPMs in the first place | Jun 17 10:20 |
| fewa | how? | Jun 17 10:21 |
| DaemonMDV | and they've have to buy the most expensive subscription to get source RPMs for everything they use | Jun 17 10:21 |
| oiaohm | DaemonMDV: it just simpler that way. | Jun 17 10:21 |
| DaemonMDV | because that's like thousands of dollars a year | Jun 17 10:21 |
| fewa | no it isnt | Jun 17 10:21 |
| DaemonMDV | by the time you'd have access to all the components CentOS uses | Jun 17 10:21 |
| oiaohm | There is a advantage to providing a free version. | Jun 17 10:22 |
| -BNc/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] Garmin-Asus Embrace Linux/Android http://ping.fm/j34Jv | Jun 17 10:22 | |
| -BNc/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] Synology DS509+ NAS Runs Linux http://ping.fm/XhGPy | Jun 17 10:22 | |
| -BNc/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] RT @trmanco Gnote 0.5.0 has been released: http://is.gd/14kmh | Jun 17 10:22 | |
| oiaohm | Access to public mirror system DaemonMDV | Jun 17 10:22 |
| DaemonMDV | you could buy a Red Hat Desktop subscription, but then to comply with the GPL, Red Hat only has to give you the source to what's in the Desktop edition | Jun 17 10:22 |
| oiaohm | You may only have to give the source DaemonMDV | Jun 17 10:22 |
| oiaohm | Giving the source has not stopped forking in the past. | Jun 17 10:23 |
| fewa | but in addition, they cant prevent you from redistrobuting the binaries | Jun 17 10:23 |
| oiaohm | They do get an advantage from what they are doing. Access to mirror systems for updates and the like that they don't have to pay for. | Jun 17 10:23 |
| DaemonMDV | http://audiotests.free.fr/tests/2007.11/plot6.png | Jun 17 10:23 |
| DaemonMDV | hmmm | Jun 17 10:24 |
| fewa | DaemonMDV, you are seeing conflict where there isnt any | Jun 17 10:24 |
| oiaohm | Releasing a free distribution is one of the ways they can meet there requirements. Its not like doing that does not come without perks. | Jun 17 10:25 |
| DaemonMDV | Well, in Mandrivas case it gives them a huge base of testers that they don't have to provide any tech support to anyway | Jun 17 10:26 |
| DaemonMDV | and you can't do anything with it unless you add illegal repos or buy the boxed set | Jun 17 10:27 |
| -BNc/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] Linux Phones Run Our Old Favourite Games http://ping.fm/xyJgq | Jun 17 10:27 | |
| fewa | illegal repos? what illegal? | Jun 17 10:27 |
| DaemonMDV | PLF is illegal | Jun 17 10:27 |
| DaemonMDV | they distribute stuff like LAME, FAAC, FAAD, etc | Jun 17 10:27 |
| oiaohm | Look at Mandrivas host country. | Jun 17 10:28 |
| DaemonMDV | yeah, it's illegal there too | Jun 17 10:28 |
| MinceR | france has sw patents now? | Jun 17 10:28 |
| DaemonMDV | France is being even bigger fascist cocksuckers than most countries currently | Jun 17 10:28 |
| DaemonMDV | HADOPI? | Jun 17 10:28 |
| DaemonMDV | duh | Jun 17 10:28 |
| fewa | thats not patents | Jun 17 10:28 |
| oiaohm | France software patents don't apply. | Jun 17 10:28 |
| MinceR | it's a difficult task to be a bigger fascist cocksuckers than the usa :> | Jun 17 10:29 |
| oiaohm | Ok pirating software they will eat you for lunch. | Jun 17 10:29 |
| MinceR | then again, the PRC manages it | Jun 17 10:29 |
| fewa | Also, make the difference between criminal and civil | Jun 17 10:29 |
| fewa | there is a big difference | Jun 17 10:29 |
| DaemonMDV | gee, I'm sure there's a few reporters our government hasn't shot or thrown into the dungeon | Jun 17 10:29 |
| DaemonMDV | :) | Jun 17 10:29 |
| DaemonMDV | that's not true of most countries | Jun 17 10:30 |
| DaemonMDV | when there's like 186 slots on the corruption index and we're nowhere near the bottom, you know there's plenty worse places than the United States out there | Jun 17 10:30 |
| DaemonMDV | 168 to be precise | Jun 17 10:31 |
| DaemonMDV | :D | Jun 17 10:31 |
| MinceR | http://freedomhouse.org/template.cfm?page=442&year=2008 | Jun 17 10:31 |
| DaemonMDV | including ties | Jun 17 10:31 |
| MinceR | their freedom of the press isn't too bad, i'll give you that | Jun 17 10:31 |
| oiaohm | Where is that index DaemonMDV | Jun 17 10:31 |
| DaemonMDV | it's the UN's corruption perception index | Jun 17 10:31 |
| DaemonMDV | I think we're number 18 | Jun 17 10:31 |
| DaemonMDV | with 1 being the least corrupt | Jun 17 10:32 |
| MinceR | could you link to that? | Jun 17 10:32 |
| DaemonMDV | and 186 being the most | Jun 17 10:32 |
| MinceR | that's interesting too | Jun 17 10:32 |
| -BNc/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] Jeremy Zawodny Turns to Linux Magazine After Yahoo! Career http://ping.fm/IBk2s http://ping.fm/dCm4S | Jun 17 10:32 | |
| DaemonMDV | Hungary is at slot 47 | Jun 17 10:32 |
| DaemonMDV | so they are far more corrupt than the US | Jun 17 10:32 |
| DaemonMDV | according o the UN | Jun 17 10:32 |
| DaemonMDV | http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Corruption_Perceptions_Index | Jun 17 10:33 |
| MinceR | well, dunno | Jun 17 10:33 |
| MinceR | both the usa and hungary are corrupt as hell | Jun 17 10:33 |
| MinceR | the difference i see is that in the usa the corruption comes mostly from local companies | Jun 17 10:33 |
| DaemonMDV | The Zionist Regime is at 33 | Jun 17 10:33 |
| DaemonMDV | :D | Jun 17 10:33 |
| oiaohm | Should have guessed I live in a low Corruption zone. | Jun 17 10:33 |
| MinceR | we import it from the usa :> | Jun 17 10:33 |
| DaemonMDV | you're more corrupt than they are | Jun 17 10:33 |
| DaemonMDV | stay away, I don't want it to spread | Jun 17 10:33 |
| DaemonMDV | :P | Jun 17 10:33 |
| MinceR | well, don't spread it then | Jun 17 10:34 |
| MinceR | also, note that you're talking about corruption _perceptions_ | Jun 17 10:34 |
| DaemonMDV | http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/0/04/World_Map_Index_of_perception_of_corruption.png | Jun 17 10:34 |
| DaemonMDV | far from the worst | Jun 17 10:35 |
| DaemonMDV | :D | Jun 17 10:35 |
| DaemonMDV | you notice that China and Russia are near the bottom of the bucket | Jun 17 10:35 |
| DaemonMDV | most African countries are in the bucket | Jun 17 10:35 |
| DaemonMDV | most all of Central and South America | Jun 17 10:36 |
| DaemonMDV | so it's about what you'd expect | Jun 17 10:36 |
| oiaohm | Not all of china. | Jun 17 10:37 |
| oiaohm | USA is more bent than Hong Kong | Jun 17 10:38 |
| DaemonMDV | Hong Kong is an abnormal case | Jun 17 10:39 |
| DaemonMDV | where the Communists don't just shoot first and that's pretty much it, just the shooting.... | Jun 17 10:39 |
| DaemonMDV | :D | Jun 17 10:39 |
| oiaohm | China internal state is not constant across the complete country. | Jun 17 10:40 |
| DaemonMDV | The Communists are some pretty unsavory people | Jun 17 10:40 |
| DaemonMDV | they'll just disappear anyone they don't like, unleash the army on unarmed civilians | Jun 17 10:41 |
| DaemonMDV | then blacklist media coverage about the incident | Jun 17 10:41 |
| DaemonMDV | deny it | Jun 17 10:41 |
| DaemonMDV | censor it from the internet | Jun 17 10:41 |
| oiaohm | Its not the ideals of Communist to do any of that. | Jun 17 10:42 |
| -BNc/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] Big Free Software Event Coming http://ping.fm/Oo04n | Jun 17 10:42 | |
| -BNc/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] British Government Keeps in Old Ages of Software That Robs Freedom http://ping.fm/PsXvQ | Jun 17 10:42 | |
| DaemonMDV | yeah, well perhaps you could ask them to knock it off | Jun 17 10:42 |
| DaemonMDV | I'm sure you'll get some medals and Nobel prizes | Jun 17 10:42 |
| DaemonMDV | :) | Jun 17 10:42 |
| DaemonMDV | stuff like that | Jun 17 10:42 |
| oiaohm | Its the old say power corrupts and absolute power corrupts absolutely. | Jun 17 10:42 |
| oiaohm | USA people like linking the problems that happen because of absolute power to communist. | Jun 17 10:44 |
| DaemonMDV | funny how every communist state does all the shit China does | Jun 17 10:44 |
| DaemonMDV | or worse | Jun 17 10:44 |
| DaemonMDV | I mean it's obviously just a coincidence | Jun 17 10:45 |
| DaemonMDV | must be why it happens every time | Jun 17 10:45 |
| DaemonMDV | ;) | Jun 17 10:45 |
| oiaohm | Some of the affica countries are not communist but have the same problem. | Jun 17 10:45 |
| oiaohm | Yep not being able to vote in private with gun to head kinda stuffed vote. | Jun 17 10:45 |
| DaemonMDV | Not all bad governments are Communist, but all Communist governments are bad | Jun 17 10:45 |
| DaemonMDV | :) | Jun 17 10:45 |
| oiaohm | That also is not true. There have been times Communist goverments have run right on the ideals and worked for a while. | Jun 17 10:46 |
| -BNc/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] "Site admins have instituted a kind of forced retirement, banning "Pergamino" for sockpuppeting." http://ping.fm/J2nyL | Jun 17 10:47 | |
| -BNc/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] The Copyright Cartel Had New Plans for DRM http://ping.fm/iqWLW Such conspiracies should be illegal. | Jun 17 10:47 | |
| DaemonMDV | hmmm | Jun 17 10:47 |
| oiaohm | Communist goverments just appear to have faster deterieration rates non DaemonMDV | Jun 17 10:47 |
| DaemonMDV | Audacious for Linux lets you export to WMA | Jun 17 10:47 |
| DaemonMDV | errr | Jun 17 10:48 |
| DaemonMDV | Audacity | Jun 17 10:48 |
| DaemonMDV | :p | Jun 17 10:48 |
| oiaohm | It was funny reciently one of our major crime families is no more. They basically killed all themselves out. | Jun 17 10:49 |
| oiaohm | Yes themselves. Not fighting with any other crime families. | Jun 17 10:50 |
| DaemonMDV | lmao | Jun 17 10:51 |
| DaemonMDV | this is cool | Jun 17 10:51 |
| DaemonMDV | WMA encoding on Linux :D | Jun 17 10:51 |
| DaemonMDV | wonder how many laws I'm breaking | Jun 17 10:51 |
| -BNc/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] Copyright Cartel (MAFIAA) Attacks Radio http://ping.fm/5KLC4 http://ping.fm/6gqyS | Jun 17 10:52 | |
| DaemonMDV | sounds better than the Windows Media Encoder | Jun 17 10:53 |
| DaemonMDV | for some reason | Jun 17 10:53 |
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| DaemonMDV | there you go | Jun 17 10:56 |
| DaemonMDV | forget Vorbis | Jun 17 10:56 |
| DaemonMDV | Linux can encode to WMA | Jun 17 10:56 |
| DaemonMDV | what else do you need? | Jun 17 10:56 |
| DaemonMDV | :D | Jun 17 10:56 |
| DaemonMDV | and at the addition of only 20-30 more patent infringements | Jun 17 10:56 |
| DaemonMDV | Apple to add HE-AAC support to Snow Leopard, and only 7 years after Windows users had access to it via Winamp | Jun 17 11:00 |
| DaemonMDV | surely this is a great day for innovation :P | Jun 17 11:00 |
| oiaohm | Wonder if MS has there WMA watermarking on by default. | Jun 17 11:01 |
| -BNc/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] Growing Opposition Against Intellectual Monopolies http://ping.fm/11Ztp | Jun 17 11:02 | |
| DaemonMDV | you have any idea if there's a Linux frontend to Nero AAC? | Jun 17 11:02 |
| DaemonMDV | I'm using the Windows version through Wine cause the only Linux AAC encoders insist on FAAC | Jun 17 11:03 |
| oiaohm | Nero Linux | Jun 17 11:04 |
| oiaohm | Comes to mind DaemonMDV | Jun 17 11:04 |
| DaemonMDV | well, Nero gives out their command line encoder for free | Jun 17 11:04 |
| DaemonMDV | but Foobar 2000 for Windows can pass the commands to the encoder | Jun 17 11:04 |
| DaemonMDV | saves a ton of trouble | Jun 17 11:05 |
| oiaohm | http://wiki.hydrogenaudio.org/index.php?title=K3b_and_Nero_AAC_Guide Its nero of course it would have a intergration into k3b | Jun 17 11:06 |
| oiaohm | hydrogenaudio is a fun place when you are trying to find front ends for things on Linux with audio DaemonMDV | Jun 17 11:07 |
| DaemonMDV | FAAC seems to be trailing both Nero and iTunes by a few years in terms of quality | Jun 17 11:07 |
| DaemonMDV | Nero hired most of the people working of FAAC and progress has been fairly slow since them | Jun 17 11:08 |
| DaemonMDV | *then | Jun 17 11:08 |
| DaemonMDV | from what I can gather | Jun 17 11:08 |
| DaemonMDV | Nero's encoder works pretty well though | Jun 17 11:08 |
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| DaemonMDV | most open source encoders are the worst in their particular area, LAME actually makes a pretty good MP3 encoder | Jun 17 11:10 |
| DaemonMDV | but is still limited by the specifications of MP3 | Jun 17 11:11 |
| DaemonMDV | I should upload a few problem cases for Vorbis | Jun 17 11:12 |
| DaemonMDV | god knows I've found about enough of them | Jun 17 11:12 |
| oiaohm | Only people doing what you are doing can really test a audio codec. | Jun 17 11:16 |
| oiaohm | All of them have flaws. | Jun 17 11:16 |
| DaemonMDV | there's problem cases for all of them, but I've hit far more walls with Vorbis than MP3 or M4A | Jun 17 11:17 |
| DaemonMDV | Vorbis just makes the entire file sound flat to me in a lot of cases | Jun 17 11:18 |
| DaemonMDV | unless I jack up the bitrate | Jun 17 11:18 |
| DaemonMDV | to get the same quality from Vorbis as M4A, Vorbis file usually ends up being about 30-50% larger | Jun 17 11:19 |
| oiaohm | Yep that is something that needs reporting. Its most likely an encoding error. | Jun 17 11:20 |
| DaemonMDV | I'm not too thrilled about having to use an encoder for Windows on Linux to produce good M4A files | Jun 17 11:24 |
| DaemonMDV | I'm gonna see if there's any frontends to the Linux version of Nero's free encoder | Jun 17 11:24 |
| DaemonMDV | failing that I may just buy Nero Linux if it's not that expensive | Jun 17 11:25 |
| oiaohm | k3b can be used as a front end for anything just add the command line. | Jun 17 11:25 |
| oiaohm | There are a few frontends like that for gnome as well. | Jun 17 11:26 |
| DaemonMDV | yeah, was gonna say | Jun 17 11:26 |
| DaemonMDV | I don't like to pull in KDE apps | Jun 17 11:26 |
| DaemonMDV | :P | Jun 17 11:26 |
| oiaohm | Basically I use KDE more. | Jun 17 11:26 |
| oiaohm | So I know more where kde apps are. | Jun 17 11:26 |
| DaemonMDV | I tried Mandriva KDE briefly | Jun 17 11:27 |
| DaemonMDV | it was good except for the fact that they had to pull in a lot of GNOME to plug the gaps in KDE functionality | Jun 17 11:27 |
| DaemonMDV | and it ended up being half again as big as the GNOME edition | Jun 17 11:28 |
| oiaohm | That was most likely known gnome apps. | Jun 17 11:28 |
| oiaohm | I did that the first time I moved across to kde as well. | Jun 17 11:28 |
| DaemonMDV | Fedora does some of that too | Jun 17 11:28 |
| oiaohm | Besides with gtk-qt-engine installed you don't notice the gnome apps that much under kde. | Jun 17 11:29 |
| DaemonMDV | nah, like they had Totem, and Gstreamer | Jun 17 11:29 |
| DaemonMDV | Firefox | Jun 17 11:29 |
| DaemonMDV | which by this time they had a lot of GNOME support libraries | Jun 17 11:29 |
| oiaohm | Gstreamer is a universal backend. | Jun 17 11:29 |
| DaemonMDV | and GTK+ | Jun 17 11:29 |
| oiaohm | Its used by native kde and gnome applciations. | Jun 17 11:29 |
| DaemonMDV | Mandriva uses Webkit to render their Control Center but KDE uses KHTML for their help system, but you also have to have Xulrunner for zOMGFirefox!!!!! | Jun 17 11:30 |
| DaemonMDV | so you effectively have three web browsers on the system you can't get rid of | Jun 17 11:30 |
| DaemonMDV | then maybe you want to use Opera | Jun 17 11:31 |
| oiaohm | KHTML most likely in time will fade. Due to webkit intergration in QT being used instead. | Jun 17 11:32 |
| DaemonMDV | GNOME is the only desktop environment where they haven't thrown all the features overboard to get it to run on obsolete computers and netbooks or just gone totally fucking crazy | Jun 17 11:32 |
| DaemonMDV | (KDE) | Jun 17 11:32 |
| DaemonMDV | KHTML was never that great til Apple forked it and got a bunch of other companies behind it | Jun 17 11:33 |
| DaemonMDV | and the KDE team is now largely just backporting their improvements | Jun 17 11:33 |
| DaemonMDV | so yeah, they may as well just give up and use Webkit | Jun 17 11:34 |
| DaemonMDV | I mean before they started backporting Safari/Webkit patches, Konqueror couldn't even log my into my webmail account, my bank's website, my XBOX Live Forum account | Jun 17 11:34 |
| DaemonMDV | most things for that matter | Jun 17 11:35 |
| DaemonMDV | it was simple and uncomplicated because it didn't really understand how to deal with most web pages | Jun 17 11:35 |
| MinceR | i see it's crApple fanboyism day for DaemonMDV | Jun 17 11:35 |
| DaemonMDV | not really | Jun 17 11:36 |
| DaemonMDV | Google has improved Webkit as well | Jun 17 11:36 |
| DaemonMDV | so has Nokia | Jun 17 11:36 |
| MinceR | or just anti-kde rage? | Jun 17 11:36 |
| oiaohm | Basically html part is moving down a level DaemonMDV | Jun 17 11:36 |
| DaemonMDV | who also owns Trolltech | Jun 17 11:36 |
| DaemonMDV | who's QT Toolkit KDE relies on | Jun 17 11:36 |
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| oiaohm | Nokia DaemonMDV | Jun 17 11:36 |
| MinceR | of khtml was the spawn of hell you described it as and crApple was the second coming, i wonder why they relied on its code to begin with | Jun 17 11:36 |
| DaemonMDV | KHTML was a complete joke | Jun 17 11:36 |
| MinceR | there's a distinct lack of logic in that argument | Jun 17 11:36 |
| DaemonMDV | totally unusable | Jun 17 11:36 |
| oiaohm | Moving html rendering to the QT level out of the KDE level makes perfect sence. | Jun 17 11:37 |
| DaemonMDV | I know 3.5.9 and 3.5.10 got a lot of the patches that enabled most secure login pages and such | Jun 17 11:37 |
| oiaohm | Less wrapping. | Jun 17 11:37 |
| DaemonMDV | but a browser that can't even log in or render most web sites is not helpful | Jun 17 11:37 |
| MinceR | i wonder what a rendering engine has to do with secure login pages | Jun 17 11:38 |
| MinceR | they must use different html/css elements | Jun 17 11:38 |
| MinceR | that must be it | Jun 17 11:38 |
| DaemonMDV | well, when it can't figure out how to submit the form data | Jun 17 11:38 |
| DaemonMDV | and just blanks the entire page | Jun 17 11:38 |
| DaemonMDV | yeah.... | Jun 17 11:38 |
| MinceR | yes, submission is definitely a rendering task | Jun 17 11:39 |
| DaemonMDV | Konqueror was/is garbage | Jun 17 11:39 |
| DaemonMDV | Apple/Nokia/Google are why you can even use it at all now | Jun 17 11:39 |
| MinceR | if khtml was the spawn of hell you described it as and it was only saved due to "Apple/Nokia/Google", i wonder why they relied on its code to begin with | Jun 17 11:40 |
| DaemonMDV | otherwise I'm sure it would still fail to render even standards compliant pages that IE 7 even somehow managed to display correctly | Jun 17 11:40 |
| DaemonMDV | they didn't | Jun 17 11:40 |
| DaemonMDV | it was a starting point | Jun 17 11:40 |
| DaemonMDV | like I said, Konqueror was simple and stupid | Jun 17 11:40 |
| DaemonMDV | and they fixed it up and made a proper rendering engine out of KHTML | Jun 17 11:41 |
| DaemonMDV | (Webkit) | Jun 17 11:41 |
| MinceR | so they didn't rely on its code but it was a starting point | Jun 17 11:41 |
| MinceR | i see, you fail even english now | Jun 17 11:41 |
| MinceR | not just IT | Jun 17 11:41 |
| DaemonMDV | no, some of the work was already done for them | Jun 17 11:41 |
| DaemonMDV | they could have started from scratch | Jun 17 11:41 |
| DaemonMDV | they did consider Firefox | Jun 17 11:41 |
| DaemonMDV | but it was too bloated | Jun 17 11:41 |
| MinceR | you've just said that that "some of the work" sucked horribly | Jun 17 11:41 |
| MinceR | make up your mind already | Jun 17 11:42 |
| DaemonMDV | it sucked | Jun 17 11:42 |
| DaemonMDV | because it was very incomplete | Jun 17 11:42 |
| oiaohm | DaemonMDV is right MinceR | Jun 17 11:42 |
| MinceR | so why did they use it? | Jun 17 11:42 |
| oiaohm | and wrong. | Jun 17 11:42 |
| oiaohm | khtml had a reseaonsable internal design. | Jun 17 11:42 |
| oiaohm | Just a major lack of implementation. | Jun 17 11:42 |
| MinceR | if you have the capability to create an entire rendering engine, why use something that sucks as a base? | Jun 17 11:42 |
| DaemonMDV | it's like saying "I can cut down the tree and make boards or I can buy pre-fabricated boards to get the project going" | Jun 17 11:42 |
| MinceR | oiaohm: sounds like it didn't suck after all. but that's not what DaemonMDV is saying | Jun 17 11:43 |
| DaemonMDV | but the boards aren't really useful by themselves | Jun 17 11:43 |
| DaemonMDV | just raw material | Jun 17 11:43 |
| MinceR | you don't need raw material for software | Jun 17 11:43 |
| DaemonMDV | yes you do | Jun 17 11:43 |
| oiaohm | Having the internal implementation right does not mean it could render sites MinceR | Jun 17 11:43 |
| MinceR | you can have as many bits as you need | Jun 17 11:43 |
| DaemonMDV | it's a euphemism for the source code | Jun 17 11:43 |
| oiaohm | That was khtmls major problem. | Jun 17 11:43 |
| DaemonMDV | it would take time and effort and man hours to write the code from scratch | Jun 17 11:43 |
| MinceR | oiaohm: if it was a trivial task they would have redone it | Jun 17 11:43 |
| DaemonMDV | so they just used KHTML as a framework | Jun 17 11:43 |
| DaemonMDV | it's more of a shortcut than that they absolutely relied on KHTML | Jun 17 11:44 |
| MinceR | DaemonMDV: you've already said that the code sucked, then they used it as a starting point and it magically stopped sucking | Jun 17 11:44 |
| oiaohm | The also moved it from being stacked ontop of KDE libs. | Jun 17 11:44 |
| DaemonMDV | Firefox sucks more | Jun 17 11:44 |
| MinceR | oiaohm: afaik that's the gist of what they did | Jun 17 11:44 |
| DaemonMDV | they admitted it was going to be more work to fix Gecko than to write most of Webkit based off of KHTML | Jun 17 11:44 |
| MinceR | DaemonMDV: perhaps if you'd repress your irrational anti-kde rage you'd understand something in life | Jun 17 11:45 |
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| oiaohm | Yep implementing a whole stack of missing support holes. | Jun 17 11:45 |
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| oiaohm | And moved the interface to a better location. | Jun 17 11:45 |
| Eruaran | hello | Jun 17 11:45 |
| MinceR | hay | Jun 17 11:46 |
| DaemonMDV | it's like buying an empty lot (doing it yourself) finding a lot with the foundation in place to get you going (KHTML or trying to renovate a crack den (Firefox | Jun 17 11:46 |
| MinceR | DaemonMDV: building a house is not the same as building software | Jun 17 11:46 |
| Eruaran | I've been playing with Opera Unite | Jun 17 11:46 |
| MinceR | also, if everything sucks then so does the foundation | Jun 17 11:46 |
| Eruaran | I rather like it | Jun 17 11:46 |
| MinceR | because "everything" includes it by definition | Jun 17 11:46 |
| DaemonMDV | turns out Geckp is really enormous and bloated which is why you never see it on mobile phones | Jun 17 11:47 |
| DaemonMDV | :) | Jun 17 11:47 |
| DaemonMDV | *Gecko | Jun 17 11:47 |
| MinceR | DaemonMDV: except for fennec? | Jun 17 11:47 |
| MinceR | or is that distinct from it? | Jun 17 11:47 |
| trmanco | schestowitz, did you see the changelog? | Jun 17 11:47 |
| DaemonMDV | no mobile phones use Gecko, they all use Opera or Webkit-based browsers | Jun 17 11:47 |
| Eruaran | BBC has footage of what appears to be govt backed militia attacking university dorms in Iran | Jun 17 11:48 |
| Eruaran | http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/8104848.stm | Jun 17 11:48 |
| DaemonMDV | implementing Gecko owuld mean having to put in double the memory or more right there, and since Gecko leaks so much, you still risk freezing the phone's operating system | Jun 17 11:48 |
| DaemonMDV | if the user leaves the browser open too long | Jun 17 11:48 |
| DaemonMDV | Firefox gets by on desktops because there you have gigs of RAM and a SWAP file | Jun 17 11:49 |
| MinceR | internet tablets do use gecko though | Jun 17 11:49 |
| MinceR | http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nokia_N810 | Jun 17 11:49 |
| DaemonMDV | so you're not likely to notice it misbehaving | Jun 17 11:49 |
| MinceR | so we've moved from anti-kde rage to anti-mozilla rage now | Jun 17 11:49 |
| MinceR | i wonder what's next | Jun 17 11:49 |
| MinceR | anti-opera rage? | Jun 17 11:50 |
| DaemonMDV | "n particular, SVG support is disabled due to unacceptable performance, and XUL is not included to reduce size and decrease memory consumption.[3] As XUL is not included, most Firefox plugins require porting and repackaging before they can be used with MicroB. In place of XUL, MicroB uses GTK and the Hildon UI toolkit to provide a native interface.[4]" | Jun 17 11:50 |
| DaemonMDV | so they implemented Gecko by removing its biggest memory leaking features | Jun 17 11:50 |
| DaemonMDV | and porting the user interface to QT | Jun 17 11:50 |
| MinceR | wow, mobile browsers don't include all the features of desktop browsers? well, i never! | Jun 17 11:51 |
| DaemonMDV | that's kind of cheating since they had to cripple it | Jun 17 11:51 |
| DaemonMDV | but OK, *claps* | Jun 17 11:51 |
| MinceR | well, everyone cheats then | Jun 17 11:51 |
| DaemonMDV | no | Jun 17 11:51 |
| MinceR | also, is hildon qt already? | Jun 17 11:51 |
| DaemonMDV | Presto isn't crippled | Jun 17 11:51 |
| DaemonMDV | nor Webkit | Jun 17 11:51 |
| MinceR | as for 130802 < DaemonMDV> but OK, *claps* | Jun 17 11:52 |
| MinceR | go die in a fire | Jun 17 11:52 |
| oiaohm | Webkit can do a XUL style interface. You don't do it for the same reasons it bad on firefox. | Jun 17 11:52 |
| DaemonMDV | I'm happy enough with Opera on my phone | Jun 17 11:52 |
| oiaohm | javascript is not what you call leakless. | Jun 17 11:53 |
| oiaohm | chrome started the idea of each tab having its own process to get on top of the javascript leak problem. | Jun 17 11:53 |
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| oiaohm | I will be interested to see how palm interface has got onto of the javascript leak problem. | Jun 17 11:55 |
| schestowitz | trmanco: gnote? | Jun 17 11:57 |
| trmanco | yes | Jun 17 11:57 |
| schestowitz | No, not yet | Jun 17 11:58 |
| schestowitz | I was gonna blog it later | Jun 17 11:58 |
| schestowitz | Caught up with news, COLA. | Jun 17 11:58 |
| schestowitz | BN's most read posts are daily links too, so I'll do this... | Jun 17 11:58 |
| schestowitz | OK, links: http://boycottnovell.com/2009/06/17/links-17062009-mac4lin-10-red-hat-among-100-best-places-to-work-in-it/ | Jun 17 12:01 |
| oiaohm | http://www.darkreading.com/security/encryption/showArticle.jhtml?articleID=217801293 As with all tech it is double sided. | Jun 17 12:02 |
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| trmanco | schestowitz, read it carefully | Jun 17 12:05 |
| trmanco | :-P | Jun 17 12:05 |
| DaemonMDV | schestowitz: As far as modernizing FreeBSD... | Jun 17 12:07 |
| DaemonMDV | PC-BSD has been around for a while | Jun 17 12:07 |
| DaemonMDV | aside from the occasional oddball wireless chipset, it works well | Jun 17 12:07 |
| schestowitz | Read what? | Jun 17 12:07 |
| schestowitz | oiaohm's link? | Jun 17 12:07 |
| schestowitz | I've not paid much attention | Jun 17 12:07 |
| schestowitz | Many posts to make right now | Jun 17 12:08 |
| DaemonMDV | you can usually make those Windows-only wifi chipsets wotk on the BSDs with NDISgen | Jun 17 12:08 |
| DaemonMDV | (Project Evil) | Jun 17 12:08 |
| DaemonMDV | it's like NDISWrapper for the BSDs | Jun 17 12:08 |
| oiaohm | It is DaemonMDV | Jun 17 12:09 |
| oiaohm | there are shared developers between the two projects DaemonMDV | Jun 17 12:09 |
| DaemonMDV | Linux Mint has NDIS Wrapper by default | Jun 17 12:09 |
| DaemonMDV | hehe | Jun 17 12:09 |
| DaemonMDV | Mandriva used to | Jun 17 12:09 |
| DaemonMDV | or maybe that was jsut a PowerPack thing | Jun 17 12:09 |
| oiaohm | schestowitz: my links was over the way html5 can be abused. | Jun 17 12:10 |
| oiaohm | Opps link | Jun 17 12:10 |
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| DaemonMDV | I already mentioned an easy way to abuse it | Jun 17 12:10 |
| DaemonMDV | since Vorbis and Theora are not part of the standard | Jun 17 12:10 |
| DaemonMDV | just use WMA/WMV streams | Jun 17 12:10 |
| oiaohm | Have you read link DaemonMDV? | Jun 17 12:10 |
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| DaemonMDV | oiaohm: For some reason, SoundConverter is fairly dumbed down | Jun 17 12:13 |
| oiaohm | In theory if you wanted to be nuts using canves in html5 and javascript you could do a in html video codec. | Jun 17 12:13 |
| DaemonMDV | AAC can go well up to 500k but SoundConverter only lets you do 256k | Jun 17 12:13 |
| oiaohm | So removing the browser support problem. | Jun 17 12:14 |
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| trmanco | hey look | Jun 17 12:16 |
| trmanco | http://europass.cedefop.europa.eu/europass/home/hornav/Downloads/EuropassCV/CVTemplate.csp | Jun 17 12:16 |
| DaemonMDV | well, Windows Nero encoder through Wine it is | Jun 17 12:16 |
| trmanco | europe suports odf :D | Jun 17 12:16 |
| DaemonMDV | til FAAC gets sorted out | Jun 17 12:16 |
| schestowitz | trmanco: what's in it? | Jun 17 12:17 |
| trmanco | CV models | Jun 17 12:17 |
| trmanco | you can download it in odf or .doc | Jun 17 12:17 |
| DaemonMDV | I did notice my phone supports High Efficiency AAC for ringtones though | Jun 17 12:17 |
| DaemonMDV | but for some reason, all of Centennial's downloads are MP3 | Jun 17 12:18 |
| schestowitz | "It no longer depends on boost regex. Instead it uses pcrecpp (part of | Jun 17 12:18 |
| schestowitz | pcre). This was: | Jun 17 12:18 |
| schestowitz | 1. to fix a bug with unicode that PCRE deal much better | Jun 17 12:18 |
| schestowitz | 2. as a side effect, reduce the dependencies as boost regex was pulling | Jun 17 12:18 |
| schestowitz | icu (which is big) | Jun 17 12:18 |
| schestowitz | Also I removed the libxml++ dependency as it was causing various | Jun 17 12:18 |
| schestowitz | problems between their ABI breakage and the bugs in 2.26. Now only | Jun 17 12:18 |
| schestowitz | libxml2 is needed." | Jun 17 12:18 |
| oiaohm | I wounder how long until someone is insane enough to do something like a bittorrent client in javascript. | Jun 17 12:18 |
| schestowitz | * No longer reference Tomboy in the help screenshot (Closes #581195) | Jun 17 12:18 |
| schestowitz | (Tony Manco) | Jun 17 12:18 |
| schestowitz | HAHAHAH! | Jun 17 12:18 |
| trmanco | :) | Jun 17 12:19 |
| schestowitz | cd /home/sandy && find | grep sandy {rm whatever} | Jun 17 12:19 |
| DaemonMDV | http://img190.imageshack.us/img190/9998/screenshotsbz.png | Jun 17 12:26 |
| DaemonMDV | doing ABX on ~250k Nero AAC, I only chose correctly 1 out of 18 vs the CD | Jun 17 12:28 |
| DaemonMDV | Vorbis in that quality range I got it right 9 times out of 18 | Jun 17 12:29 |
| DaemonMDV | LAME MP3 I was right 5 of 18 | Jun 17 12:29 |
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| *DaemonMDV invites oiaohm to get down with the sickness :P | Jun 17 12:32 | |
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| oiaohm | I have never see that band before DaemonMDV | Jun 17 12:34 |
| DaemonMDV | Disturbed? | Jun 17 12:34 |
| DaemonMDV | you're kidding me | Jun 17 12:34 |
| oiaohm | Not kidding. | Jun 17 12:34 |
| DaemonMDV | I have all their albums | Jun 17 12:34 |
| oiaohm | Not something I have ever seen here in Australia. | Jun 17 12:35 |
| DaemonMDV | probably banned by the Family and Fascist Party | Jun 17 12:35 |
| DaemonMDV | along with half the internet | Jun 17 12:35 |
| DaemonMDV | :D | Jun 17 12:35 |
| oiaohm | Site not banned. | Jun 17 12:36 |
| DaemonMDV | hmmm | Jun 17 12:36 |
| DaemonMDV | I also have all of Seether | Jun 17 12:37 |
| -BNc/#boycottnovell-[trmanco] A fazer o meu CV | Jun 17 12:37 | |
| DaemonMDV | including their first album which was only released in South Africa | Jun 17 12:37 |
| DaemonMDV | Rhythmbox can't find the album art for it either | Jun 17 12:37 |
| DaemonMDV | lol | Jun 17 12:37 |
| oiaohm | I guess it is a equal mirror "All Mankind" you would not know. | Jun 17 12:38 |
| oiaohm | There are a few bands here and there that don't cross regions. | Jun 17 12:39 |
| DaemonMDV | they couldn't even release the first song on their Fragiel album in the US | Jun 17 12:39 |
| DaemonMDV | cause of the RIAA and Walmart | Jun 17 12:39 |
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| DaemonMDV | most of the rest were re-recorded and released in the US as part of Disclaimer/Disclaimer II | Jun 17 12:40 |
| DaemonMDV | I had to pay $40 to get it as an import | Jun 17 12:42 |
| DaemonMDV | and another $12 to ship it | Jun 17 12:42 |
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| DaemonMDV | http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oGECJP3phyY | Jun 17 12:53 |
| DaemonMDV | heh | Jun 17 12:53 |
| *DaemonMDV might throw Alive 2007 at Nero AAC | Jun 17 12:54 | |
| DaemonMDV | see how it handles it | Jun 17 12:54 |
| DaemonMDV | MP3 and Vorbis both fall over and die | Jun 17 12:54 |
| DaemonMDV | though MP3 pulls ahead if I use lowpass of 19 Khz and CBR 320 | Jun 17 12:55 |
| DaemonMDV | oiaohm: Do you happen to know what Last.FM streams in | Jun 17 12:59 |
| DaemonMDV | has to be something proprietary cause I remember it triggering Ubuntu's codec installer once | Jun 17 12:59 |
| DaemonMDV | forget what it made me grab though | Jun 17 12:59 |
| oiaohm | Sorry I don't DaemonMDV | Jun 17 13:00 |
| DaemonMDV | http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Last.fm#Alleged_data_leak_to_RIAA | Jun 17 13:02 |
| DaemonMDV | ouch | Jun 17 13:02 |
| DaemonMDV | might want to uninstall Last.FM | Jun 17 13:02 |
| DaemonMDV | Last.FM is spying on users for the RIAA | Jun 17 13:03 |
| DaemonMDV | and then trying to lie their way out of it | Jun 17 13:03 |
| DaemonMDV | effectively making Last.FM a form of spyware that goes so far as to ship with most Linux distros | Jun 17 13:03 |
| DaemonMDV | "The exact nature of the data that was allegedly transferred is still not clear. It’s implied that the data linked scrobbles to IP addresses." | Jun 17 13:05 |
| DaemonMDV | so the RIAA knows what music you have on your computer if you ever sign into Last.FM and let it scrobble your library | Jun 17 13:05 |
| DaemonMDV | even if it's through a plugin as in Amarok, Banshee, or Rhythmbox | Jun 17 13:06 |
| DaemonMDV | http://www.techcrunch.com/2009/05/23/another-blanket-denial-by-lastfm/ | Jun 17 13:07 |
| -BNc/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] Crime exposed: How Steve Ballmer (and Colleagues) Deliberately Sabotaged OS/2 < http://ping.fm/l4mqY > | Jun 17 13:07 | |
| DaemonMDV | schestowitz: Why would I want to make my system look like Mac OS X | Jun 17 13:09 |
| *DaemonMDV personally thinks OS X looks like utter crap | Jun 17 13:10 | |
| DaemonMDV | I do like how Mandriva has made GNOME look smoother | Jun 17 13:12 |
| DaemonMDV | that was clever | Jun 17 13:12 |
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| oiaohm | I have not inspected what Mandriva did DaemonMDV | Jun 17 13:28 |
| DaemonMDV | I just purged Mono from the system | Jun 17 13:29 |
| DaemonMDV | the only thing it took out that I even use is F-Spot | Jun 17 13:29 |
| DaemonMDV | gthumb does an equally good job | Jun 17 13:29 |
| DaemonMDV | and I gained another 70 MB of RAM from not having Beagle Search | Jun 17 13:30 |
| DaemonMDV | :P | Jun 17 13:30 |
| DaemonMDV | that must be their token sacrifice to the Vista Search gods | Jun 17 13:30 |
| oiaohm | There is tracker and others that do basically the same job as Beagle with less ram usage. | Jun 17 13:31 |
| oiaohm | really its token stupidity. | Jun 17 13:31 |
| DaemonMDV | I don't care because I usually don't search for things and the resource drain is more than it's worth | Jun 17 13:32 |
| DaemonMDV | I think the reason Suse is so slow is because Tomboy and Beagle need more RAM to run than Windows 2000 | Jun 17 13:32 |
| DaemonMDV | seems there's also some kind of a backup service loaded in Mandriva taking 31.5 megs of RAM even if backups are not enabled | Jun 17 13:33 |
| DaemonMDV | (the default) | Jun 17 13:34 |
| DaemonMDV | I killed it and disabled the service from starting up | Jun 17 13:35 |
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| DaemonMDV | I think all distros are just out on a mission to eat your hard disk and RAM to spend on all kinds of stupid shit that only a few people will even want or need | Jun 17 13:37 |
| polywaffle | just saw a debate about debian including mono | Jun 17 13:38 |
| polywaffle | bit of a shame eh? | Jun 17 13:38 |
| DaemonMDV | meh, they've never followed most of their own policies anyway | Jun 17 13:38 |
| polywaffle | I think it is a bit of a concern really | Jun 17 13:39 |
| polywaffle | ideologically speaking | Jun 17 13:39 |
| DaemonMDV | I don't | Jun 17 13:39 |
| oiaohm | For the mono guys it is something to worry about. | Jun 17 13:39 |
| DaemonMDV | not so much of one as the influential desktop distributions piling it in | Jun 17 13:39 |
| oiaohm | If debian decide to drop them so will a lot of other distributions. | Jun 17 13:39 |
| oiaohm | Debian legal outcomes are respected. | Jun 17 13:40 |
| polywaffle | well I just removed it from ubuntu | Jun 17 13:40 |
| polywaffle | on my machine | Jun 17 13:40 |
| DaemonMDV | I removed it on Mandriva | Jun 17 13:40 |
| polywaffle | and installed gnote to replace tomboy | Jun 17 13:40 |
| DaemonMDV | there's nothing important that even depends on it | Jun 17 13:40 |
| oiaohm | Just to tech .net does not stand up to the likes of vala. | Jun 17 13:40 |
| DaemonMDV | Ubuntu wasted over 80 megs of the LiveCD on Mono runtimes | Jun 17 13:40 |
| DaemonMDV | that 80 megs could be spent on something important | Jun 17 13:40 |
| polywaffle | I think we need to remember (its obvious of course) that microsoft is not a friend, we should really try as much as possible to avoid crossing certain lines | Jun 17 13:41 |
| oiaohm | Mono is not memory effective. | Jun 17 13:41 |
| oiaohm | It has a major design flaw. | Jun 17 13:41 |
| polywaffle | even if it were, would that matter? | Jun 17 13:41 |
| DaemonMDV | 80 megs spent on runtimes to run a note taking application and a photo browser that has a non-mono equivalent | Jun 17 13:41 |
| oiaohm | You cannot directly interface to C or gobject or C++ so it basically incompable with all prior stuff. | Jun 17 13:41 |
| DaemonMDV | the only thing that was keeping me on the fence was Banshee | Jun 17 13:42 |
| oiaohm | So needs heavy wrappers. | Jun 17 13:42 |
| DaemonMDV | I like some bits of it better than Rhythmbox | Jun 17 13:42 |
| DaemonMDV | but if it's just going to crash when I plug my mp3 player in | Jun 17 13:42 |
| DaemonMDV | what good is it? | Jun 17 13:42 |
| oiaohm | .net was designed to cure a windows problem. | Jun 17 13:42 |
| polywaffle | rhythmbox is ok I feel | Jun 17 13:42 |
| oiaohm | Lack of a good mandorary access control system. | Jun 17 13:43 |
| polywaffle | is that to secure | Jun 17 13:43 |
| polywaffle | i was about to say that | Jun 17 13:43 |
| polywaffle | the whole vm thing | Jun 17 13:43 |
| oiaohm | Linux kernel has great Mandorary access controls built in. | Jun 17 13:43 |
| oiaohm | So you are basically double stacking. | Jun 17 13:43 |
| oiaohm | There is no point to it. | Jun 17 13:43 |
| polywaffle | I know | Jun 17 13:44 |
| polywaffle | but still | Jun 17 13:44 |
| DaemonMDV | there's also the issue of "Why are they using Evolution?" | Jun 17 13:44 |
| polywaffle | you guys are being pragmatic | Jun 17 13:44 |
| MinceR | i thought it was designed to implement m$ java after being slapped because they tried to corrupt sun's java | Jun 17 13:44 |
| DaemonMDV | that thing is over 90 megs just to read your email | Jun 17 13:44 |
| polywaffle | if you can look at it from an ideological perspective | Jun 17 13:44 |
| oiaohm | A byte code system on top of vala design framework would be great. | Jun 17 13:44 |
| MinceR | actually evolution can do a lot more than "just to read your email" | Jun 17 13:44 |
| oiaohm | Or even better under. | Jun 17 13:44 |
| polywaffle | and use the precautionary principle | Jun 17 13:44 |
| DaemonMDV | MinceR: Doesn't matter | Jun 17 13:44 |
| oiaohm | Take the bytecode out of gcc or llvm and make it cross cpu type. | Jun 17 13:45 |
| polywaffle | it makes me think, apart from novell, microsoft has friends in our community | Jun 17 13:45 |
| oiaohm | and over night you would have a bytecode system that covered most applications that exist on Linux. | Jun 17 13:45 |
| DaemonMDV | Thunderbird + Sunbird (think that's the name of Mozilla calender app) is like 40 megs put together | Jun 17 13:45 |
| MinceR | DaemonMDV: and obviously everyone in the world has the same requirements toward email clients as you do | Jun 17 13:45 |
| DaemonMDV | so Evolution is still over twice as big | Jun 17 13:45 |
| MinceR | thunderbird fails harder at handling search folders | Jun 17 13:45 |
| oiaohm | I personally use kontact DaemonMDV | Jun 17 13:45 |
| DaemonMDV | Evolution = the Tiger tank of email applications | Jun 17 13:46 |
| oiaohm | kontact is the basically a suit of applications working as 1. | Jun 17 13:46 |
| MinceR | i used kmail until 1.10, where they introduced this new feature where it just crashes when i try to view search folders | Jun 17 13:46 |
| MinceR | but maybe it's been fixed since, i'll have to check | Jun 17 13:46 |
| oiaohm | Been fixed. | Jun 17 13:46 |
| MinceR | thx | Jun 17 13:47 |
| oiaohm | The mistake of java was the same as .net too thick of wrappers harming performance. | Jun 17 13:47 |
| polywaffle | do any core components of GNOME use C# ? | Jun 17 13:47 |
| oiaohm | C# cannot intergrate well into the gobject system. | Jun 17 13:48 |
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| oiaohm | So it cannot really be used to create core components in gnome. | Jun 17 13:48 |
| ThistleWeb | Evolution is huge, but then it's much more than just an email client | Jun 17 13:48 |
| polywaffle | ok | Jun 17 13:48 |
| ThistleWeb | it's way more than most peeps need | Jun 17 13:48 |
| mib_cetulj | :D first time on mbit | Jun 17 13:48 |
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| mib_cetulj | oops boss bbl | Jun 17 13:48 |
| polywaffle | ThistleWeb shouldn't it be more modular | Jun 17 13:48 |
| oiaohm | That is the problem mono pushed as this great thing but it cannot intergrate. | Jun 17 13:49 |
| ThistleWeb | polywaffle: my thing with Evolution is that it's welded into Gnome | Jun 17 13:49 |
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| ThistleWeb | as far as I know, you can't remove it from Gnome | Jun 17 13:49 |
| polywaffle | ThistleWeb this I noticed when I tried to uninstall it | Jun 17 13:49 |
| oiaohm | vala a releated syntax language to C# with light wrappers could be used to build. | Jun 17 13:49 |
| ThistleWeb | if you install it outside of Gnome, it wants the whole Gnome desktop as a dependency | Jun 17 13:50 |
| polywaffle | ThistleWeb pretty crap eh | Jun 17 13:50 |
| ThistleWeb | something that tight that it can't be removed reminds me too much of Windows | Jun 17 13:50 |
| polywaffle | it is not without a sense of irony that soon it seems KDE will be more free than GNOME | Jun 17 13:50 |
| ThistleWeb | and why the modular approach is better | Jun 17 13:50 |
| oiaohm | KDE follows a strong module method. Some things still need a lot of modules of course. | Jun 17 13:51 |
| polywaffle | but kde is screwed atm | Jun 17 13:51 |
| polywaffle | even I refuse to use it for mission critical stuff | Jun 17 13:51 |
| oiaohm | I am still running 3.5 | Jun 17 13:51 |
| polywaffle | yer | Jun 17 13:51 |
| ThistleWeb | I grew out of kde ages ago but kde 4 is looking sweet | Jun 17 13:51 |
| polywaffle | it LOOKS sweet | Jun 17 13:52 |
| oiaohm | I am tollerent. | Jun 17 13:52 |
| polywaffle | but it is sour like lemon | Jun 17 13:52 |
| oiaohm | KDE 4 each version has improved. | Jun 17 13:52 |
| neighborlee | polywaffle, how true indeed | Jun 17 13:52 |
| ThistleWeb | by the time I get a PC capable of running kde 4, it will be super smooth | Jun 17 13:52 |
| polywaffle | lol | Jun 17 13:52 |
| *ThistleWeb has never actually tried kde 4 | Jun 17 13:52 | |
| oiaohm | Compisited effects are a killer. | Jun 17 13:52 |
| oiaohm | Lot of lockups people blame on kde 4 track to that. | Jun 17 13:53 |
| polywaffle | well I think that we need solid stability | Jun 17 13:53 |
| polywaffle | then features | Jun 17 13:53 |
| oiaohm | There is a problem. | Jun 17 13:53 |
| ThistleWeb | nearest I got was Mandriva (I think) in live mode, but my lil PC was wheezing at just showing the desktop, so it took forever to click on a menu for it to show, let alone run anything | Jun 17 13:53 |
| oiaohm | KDE 4 was designed for DRI 2. | Jun 17 13:53 |
| oiaohm | Most people enable all features on DRI 1 that has some defects KDE 4 hits causing X11 to go out. | Jun 17 13:54 |
| polywaffle | excuse my ignorance, but why don't the distros iron this out | Jun 17 13:54 |
| oiaohm | Most likely by the time DRI 2 drivers are ready so will KDE. | Jun 17 13:54 |
| neighborlee | if its designed for 2, how are they enablng support for 1..:) | Jun 17 13:54 |
| neighborlee | o_0 | Jun 17 13:54 |
| DaemonMDV | nothing is going to iron out KDE | Jun 17 13:54 |
| ThistleWeb | kde 4 is a major overhaul | Jun 17 13:54 |
| oiaohm | They are not neighborlee | Jun 17 13:54 |
| ThistleWeb | it's not just a minor upgrade | Jun 17 13:55 |
| DaemonMDV | if 70,000+ patches since KDE 4 hasn't | Jun 17 13:55 |
| oiaohm | They leave it to the user to be smart enough not to turn all features on. | Jun 17 13:55 |
| polywaffle | lol at last comment | Jun 17 13:55 |
| oiaohm | DaemonMDV: KDE 4 will sort out in time. | Jun 17 13:56 |
| polywaffle | well it will | Jun 17 13:56 |
| polywaffle | but then will be QT5 | Jun 17 13:56 |
| polywaffle | and the whole saga will start over | Jun 17 13:56 |
| oiaohm | Unlikely. | Jun 17 13:56 |
| neighborlee | I consider it worthy risk, given the reliable mess we have with gnome. | Jun 17 13:57 |
| oiaohm | QT 4 was designed to be updated without causing major issues like QT 3 was. | Jun 17 13:57 |
| oiaohm | Basically QT 4 is also a more moduler design so parts in it could be completely replaced in time. | Jun 17 13:57 |
| polywaffle | I hope so | Jun 17 13:58 |
| oiaohm | QT4 to 5 will be just a gradual conversion. | Jun 17 13:58 |
| polywaffle | I hope to abandon this mess | Jun 17 13:58 |
| polywaffle | nothing should be welded | Jun 17 13:58 |
| polywaffle | modular it should be | Jun 17 13:58 |
| oiaohm | KDE 3.5 basically got to the limit the QT 3 could handle. | Jun 17 13:58 |
| polywaffle | of course some dependencies must be | Jun 17 13:58 |
| polywaffle | well they did well with it | Jun 17 13:58 |
| oiaohm | Lot of its code base is a night mare internally fixing up QT3 faults. | Jun 17 13:58 |
| oiaohm | KDE 4 had to happen. Major correction of major faults also comes with major pain. | Jun 17 13:59 |
| oiaohm | Catching KDE 4 feature wise up to KDE 3.5 is a massive project. | Jun 17 14:00 |
| ThistleWeb | KDE 4 is a huge upgrade of almost everything under the hood, it's gonna take time to get it where it needs to be | Jun 17 14:01 |
| ThistleWeb | I like where it's headed though | Jun 17 14:01 |
| MinceR | it shouldn't be considered a stable release until it gets there | Jun 17 14:02 |
| ThistleWeb | stable = only for horses | Jun 17 14:02 |
| MinceR | even debian is dropping 3.5 in squeeze | Jun 17 14:02 |
| MinceR | i prefer my os-es and gui-s to be stable, thank-you-very-much | Jun 17 14:02 |
| fewa | then use gnome | Jun 17 14:03 |
| ThistleWeb | gnome aint the answer, an LTS version of a distro is | Jun 17 14:03 |
| fewa | two differnt questions | Jun 17 14:03 |
| oiaohm | 3.5 is stable. | Jun 17 14:03 |
| fewa | 4.x is unstable in all incantations | Jun 17 14:04 |
| oiaohm | 4.2 configured right is stable. | Jun 17 14:04 |
| oiaohm | Just very feature less. | Jun 17 14:04 |
| fewa | and 4.2 is the first stable release | Jun 17 14:04 |
| oiaohm | You could get 4.0 stable too. | Jun 17 14:04 |
| oiaohm | Same problem very featureless. | Jun 17 14:04 |
| MinceR | gnome has pretty much the same issues | Jun 17 14:04 |
| fewa | mah, i find gnome stable | Jun 17 14:05 |
| fewa | it just uses too much resources | Jun 17 14:05 |
| MinceR | well, without compiz it's reasonably stable | Jun 17 14:05 |
| MinceR | except that both kde and gnome (or something else) eats all my memory since i upgraded to intrepid | Jun 17 14:05 |
| ThistleWeb | it depends ont he distro too, Fedora like being ahead of the curve but it's not the most stable for it | Jun 17 14:05 |
| fewa | i have 8GB | Jun 17 14:05 |
| fewa | i dont even think about ram | Jun 17 14:05 |
| MinceR | and since my laptop is partially broken (physically), i didn't proceed with finishing the lenny install and configuring it | Jun 17 14:06 |
| MinceR | i'll do it on the new laptop | Jun 17 14:06 |
| MinceR | it's nice to have 8GB, i have 1GB | Jun 17 14:06 |
| DaemonMDV | schestowitz: http://pastebin.com/f4c3dce66 | Jun 17 14:06 |
| oiaohm | I run on 4GB at moment. | Jun 17 14:06 |
| fewa | it was just so cheep | Jun 17 14:06 |
| fewa | I had firefox up to 1.5GB | Jun 17 14:07 |
| DaemonMDV | # | Jun 17 14:07 |
| DaemonMDV | <thenixedreport> So how would one go about acquiring a royalty free license for .NET? | Jun 17 14:07 |
| DaemonMDV | # | Jun 17 14:07 |
| DaemonMDV | <thenixedreport> According to ECMA, they don't deal with licensing. | Jun 17 14:07 |
| DaemonMDV | # | Jun 17 14:07 |
| polywaffle | Fedora is good but for the 6 month cycle | Jun 17 14:07 |
| fewa | once | Jun 17 14:07 |
| DaemonMDV | <miguel> To ECMA 334/335 you mean | Jun 17 14:07 |
| oiaohm | KDE 4.2 will operation reasonablely in 512 megs of ram. | Jun 17 14:07 |
| DaemonMDV | # | Jun 17 14:07 |
| DaemonMDV | <miguel> You ask Microsoft | Jun 17 14:07 |
| DaemonMDV | # | Jun 17 14:07 |
| DaemonMDV | <thenixedreport> Ok. | Jun 17 14:07 |
| DaemonMDV | # | Jun 17 14:07 |
| DaemonMDV | <thenixedreport> So who specifically do I ask at Microsoft? | Jun 17 14:07 |
| DaemonMDV | # | Jun 17 14:07 |
| DaemonMDV | <miguel> How would I know? | Jun 17 14:07 |
| oiaohm | DaemonMDV: I want to kill you. | Jun 17 14:07 |
| polywaffle | why didn't you pastebin? | Jun 17 14:07 |
| neighborlee | lol | Jun 17 14:07 |
| MinceR | it was pastebinned already | Jun 17 14:08 |
| fewa | DaemonMDV is a troll, ignore him | Jun 17 14:08 |
| oiaohm | At least edit it not to include the line wasteful # | Jun 17 14:08 |
| polywaffle | ok, so leave it lol | Jun 17 14:08 |
| MinceR | it wouldn't be floody enough otherwise | Jun 17 14:08 |
| MinceR | he isn't just a troll, he's also a flooder | Jun 17 14:08 |
| fewa | he does troll | Jun 17 14:08 |
| *DaemonMDV teabags MinceR and goes back to watching his movie | Jun 17 14:08 | |
| ThistleWeb | with audio coding tourettes | Jun 17 14:08 |
| fewa | just not all the time | Jun 17 14:08 |
| MinceR | DaemonMDV: lies | Jun 17 14:08 |
| MinceR | well, i suppose he sleeps sometimes | Jun 17 14:09 |
| oiaohm | It been borring no trolls have turned up. | Jun 17 14:09 |
| ThistleWeb | the way some users are in here, everyone is only a few sentences away from being labelled a troll | Jun 17 14:11 |
| oiaohm | I am really looking forward to linux getting runtime detection of bad ram. | Jun 17 14:11 |
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| oiaohm | So I don't have to work on my system when a ram stick dies. | Jun 17 14:12 |
| polywaffle | The problem started when corporations got involved I reckon | Jun 17 14:12 |
| polywaffle | they are always interested in IP | Jun 17 14:12 |
| Omar87 | Hi | Jun 17 14:12 |
| polywaffle | hi | Jun 17 14:12 |
| Omar87 | Guys, what is this all about? http://www.gnu.org/software/dotgnu/ | Jun 17 14:12 |
| MinceR | afaik it's a dead project | Jun 17 14:13 |
| MinceR | approximately the same goal as mono | Jun 17 14:13 |
| oiaohm | Kinda dead project. | Jun 17 14:13 |
| polywaffle | its dead? | Jun 17 14:13 |
| ThistleWeb | it's just sleeping | Jun 17 14:13 |
| Tallken | not same thing | Jun 17 14:13 |
| ThistleWeb | give the cage a shake | Jun 17 14:13 |
| Tallken | wikipedia quoting INCOMING | Jun 17 14:13 |
| oiaohm | Every now and again a developer turns up and gives it a nother kick. | Jun 17 14:13 |
| Tallken | The main goal of the DotGNU project code base is to provide a class library that is 100% Common Language Specification compliant. In contrast, the main goal of another free software/open source CLI implementation, the Mono Project, is to provide 100% compatible class libraries for both the CLS specification and with the class library currently released by Microsoft for their other proprietary version of .NET, which the Dot | Jun 17 14:13 |
| Tallken | GNU project claims is not currently fully ECMA CLS compliant. | Jun 17 14:13 |
| ThistleWeb | shout PRETTY POLLY at it | Jun 17 14:13 |
| Tallken | from http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/DotGNU | Jun 17 14:14 |
| oiaohm | really the complete design of .net is pointless. | Jun 17 14:14 |
| Tallken | [citation needed] | Jun 17 14:14 |
| oiaohm | In time it will get run under. | Jun 17 14:14 |
| MinceR | i don't have my .net/mono TLA training :> | Jun 17 14:14 |
| polywaffle | question is | Jun 17 14:16 |
| polywaffle | why do we NEED it | Jun 17 14:16 |
| polywaffle | if we don't NEED it, don't get it | Jun 17 14:16 |
| polywaffle | don't waste resources etc | Jun 17 14:16 |
| oiaohm | The idea is good. Implementation sux with .net. | Jun 17 14:16 |
| ThistleWeb | polywaffle: it serves a purpose; if you have existing .net apps you need, it's a good thing for you | Jun 17 14:16 |
| oiaohm | Cross platform bytecode there is some justification to that idea. | Jun 17 14:16 |
| ThistleWeb | if you don't have that need, then you dont need it | Jun 17 14:16 |
| polywaffle | if you need a vm runtime why not IceTea | Jun 17 14:17 |
| oiaohm | .net is a copy of the java idea with the same flaws. | Jun 17 14:17 |
| ThistleWeb | I don't know of any mono app which is unique (has no non-mono equivalents) that normal users would need | Jun 17 14:17 |
| oiaohm | vala will fill the coders complianing about C++ and C syntax sucking. | Jun 17 14:18 |
| polywaffle | I think a lot in the community have forgotten about why we aim for complete freedom | Jun 17 14:18 |
| oiaohm | I don't exactly think about freedom. | Jun 17 14:18 |
| ThistleWeb | even if Microsoft announced there was no legal fear with mono, I'd still read that as "there's no legal fear, until we update our website, which we reserve the right to do at any time" | Jun 17 14:18 |
| polywaffle | what do you think about then? | Jun 17 14:19 |
| ThistleWeb | they can't be trusted to be straight with their partners, let alone ideas they want crushed | Jun 17 14:19 |
| oiaohm | Mono and .net are both bad quality design. There is no point having freedom is software can never perform. | Jun 17 14:19 |
| MinceR | ThistleWeb: as long as it isn't legally binding forever, any m$ announcement is useless | Jun 17 14:19 |
| ThistleWeb | MinceR: exactly | Jun 17 14:19 |
| oiaohm | Like if the design was really great you would be able to justify spending development time on it even if you could not use it for 20 years until patents expired. | Jun 17 14:20 |
| polywaffle | I think software freedom is not just represented by licenses, we need software that completely does not infringe on patents | Jun 17 14:20 |
| polywaffle | avoids the whole issue completely | Jun 17 14:20 |
| ThistleWeb | they like to answer the calls with agreements and covenants which are all open to being pulled at any time | Jun 17 14:20 |
| MinceR | 20 years from now the whole system could very well be obsolete | Jun 17 14:20 |
| oiaohm | Basically since mono and .net design suxs. It better be truly free. | Jun 17 14:20 |
| oiaohm | Think C MinceR | Jun 17 14:21 |
| oiaohm | If it was locked up by patents for 20 years would it have mattered long term. | Jun 17 14:21 |
| polywaffle | I just think that even the FSF is being shortsighted on the whole licensing thing a bit | Jun 17 14:21 |
| oiaohm | Its a decent language and light. | Jun 17 14:21 |
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| MinceR | oiaohm: those who think they can profit so much from it that it's worth locking down should pay all the costs of development. | Jun 17 14:21 |
| oiaohm | Something like C would be worth the risk. | Jun 17 14:21 |
| oiaohm | Mono and .net is not like C. | Jun 17 14:22 |
| oiaohm | It not good quality. | Jun 17 14:22 |
| MinceR | oiaohm: if they don't let me profit from my work in some way then i'll leave them to their own devices. | Jun 17 14:22 |
| ThistleWeb | .net is about making coding easy and fast | Jun 17 14:22 |
| ThistleWeb | for non-coders to easily learn | Jun 17 14:22 |
| MinceR | also, didn't C predate the whole sw patent mess? | Jun 17 14:22 |
| oiaohm | vala is also about making coding easy and fast. | Jun 17 14:22 |
| MinceR | C++ is also about making coding easy and fast. | Jun 17 14:22 |
| oiaohm | MinceR: it did I am just using it as a example of something that is good quality design. | Jun 17 14:23 |
| MinceR | if the programmer can be bothered to learn the language. | Jun 17 14:23 |
| oiaohm | I did not pick C++ because it can be heavy. | Jun 17 14:23 |
| oiaohm | due to its design. | Jun 17 14:23 |
| MinceR | sometimes i feel it isn't heavy enough. | Jun 17 14:23 |
| polywaffle | but isn't C++ resistant to becoming spaghettiware? | Jun 17 14:23 |
| oiaohm | heavy in cost on perfonace. | Jun 17 14:23 |
| oiaohm | But C++ is still way ahead of .net | Jun 17 14:24 |
| oiaohm | C++ would be iffy in my mind if there was a patent problem. | Jun 17 14:24 |
| ThistleWeb | my understanding is that .net is aimed at those who need a reasonably simple app but don't have the time to learn how to really code, so the .net / visual studio is an entry level / quick and dirty way of getting the app working | Jun 17 14:24 |
| oiaohm | Its not perfect but its not bad enough to walk away from. | Jun 17 14:24 |
| MinceR | polywaffle: i'd say it's highly resistant to that | Jun 17 14:24 |
| MinceR | polywaffle: considering the features that were designed to make large projects manageable. | Jun 17 14:24 |
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| polywaffle | when say compared to C | Jun 17 14:24 |
| polywaffle | I am not a developer sorry MinceR | Jun 17 14:25 |
| oiaohm | ThistleWeb: vala takes the language design of C# and does it in a way that had very little overheads. | Jun 17 14:25 |
| polywaffle | I am a business student with a strong interest in free software | Jun 17 14:25 |
| MinceR | oiaohm: i doubt you can get those features at a lower cost | Jun 17 14:25 |
| polywaffle | I will learn in the future | Jun 17 14:25 |
| oiaohm | MinceR: you can get them at a lower cost. | Jun 17 14:25 |
| MinceR | polywaffle: namespaces and OOP help a lot. | Jun 17 14:25 |
| MinceR | oiaohm: with what language? | Jun 17 14:25 |
| oiaohm | ada | Jun 17 14:25 |
| polywaffle | namespaces and OOP? | Jun 17 14:25 |
| MinceR | well, i'm not quite familiar with ada | Jun 17 14:25 |
| oiaohm | Its a really old language | Jun 17 14:26 |
| polywaffle | oh | Jun 17 14:26 |
| MinceR | polywaffle: OOP was invented to deal with the software crisis; namespaces help large projects too | Jun 17 14:26 |
| polywaffle | object oriented programming | Jun 17 14:26 |
| polywaffle | sorry | Jun 17 14:26 |
| MinceR | ic | Jun 17 14:26 |
| oiaohm | But it was design more to convert neater to asm. | Jun 17 14:26 |
| polywaffle | just got that | Jun 17 14:26 |
| polywaffle | lol | Jun 17 14:26 |
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| MinceR | my main problem with ada is that it has pascal syntax | Jun 17 14:26 |
| oiaohm | C++ started live as a wrapper over C | Jun 17 14:26 |
| MinceR | with all the horror that implies. | Jun 17 14:26 |
| oiaohm | And it still shows. | Jun 17 14:26 |
| polywaffle | so you guys say learn C | Jun 17 14:27 |
| polywaffle | and not C++? | Jun 17 14:27 |
| -BNc/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] Microsoft’s Latest Big Departure Oversaw the Company’s “Evangelism Group” (AstroTurfing) < http://ping.fm/evrVm > | Jun 17 14:27 | |
| oiaohm | Maybe one day someone might make a complier good enough that its overheads are handled correctly. | Jun 17 14:27 |
| ThistleWeb | the thing with languages is that even though an obscure one may be better, if you do a project in it, you're potentially limiting those who can contribute if they prefer one of the more popular ones | Jun 17 14:27 |
| MinceR | polywaffle: i say learn both | Jun 17 14:27 |
| oiaohm | C and C++ are releated. | Jun 17 14:27 |
| oiaohm | Having both is useful. | Jun 17 14:27 |
| MinceR | polywaffle: you'll need a foundation of C for C++ anyway. | Jun 17 14:27 |
| ThistleWeb | which is why php is the FOSS web language of choice, even if it's not the best suited for the role | Jun 17 14:27 |
| oiaohm | Vala translates down into C. | Jun 17 14:27 |
| polywaffle | give me time and I will, I want to contribute back and not just be a consumer/plaudit | Jun 17 14:28 |
| oiaohm | The way it does it avoids having a runtime. | Jun 17 14:28 |
| oiaohm | C++ could have been designed to avoid needing a runtime but it was not. | Jun 17 14:28 |
| oiaohm | Issue is design. | Jun 17 14:28 |
| ThistleWeb | it's another reason that Microsoft want to push .net / mono | Jun 17 14:28 |
| oiaohm | Either something is good bad or resonable. | Jun 17 14:28 |
| ThistleWeb | to get more people using their languages | Jun 17 14:29 |
| oiaohm | C and vala are both good design. | Jun 17 14:29 |
| MinceR | oiaohm: what do you mean by "runtime"? | Jun 17 14:29 |
| oiaohm | libstdc++ MinceR | Jun 17 14:29 |
| polywaffle | I thought a runtime was a vm | Jun 17 14:29 |
| polywaffle | for a particular language | Jun 17 14:29 |
| polywaffle | like java needs a vm | Jun 17 14:29 |
| ThistleWeb | nah, runtime is the start of a race | Jun 17 14:30 |
| oiaohm | just like libc is C runtime. | Jun 17 14:30 |
| MinceR | oiaohm: you could link it statically if it was a problem | Jun 17 14:30 |
| ThistleWeb | after the starter gun goes off | Jun 17 14:30 |
| MinceR | oiaohm: also, vala needs glib | Jun 17 14:30 |
| oiaohm | MinceR: lot of functions in libstdc++ could solve out to lower. | Jun 17 14:30 |
| oiaohm | Ie C functions. | Jun 17 14:30 |
| MinceR | that's an implementation detail. | Jun 17 14:30 |
| MinceR | also, glib provides wrappers to libc functions too. | Jun 17 14:31 |
| oiaohm | Remember I said when someone makes a complier that works for it my point of view of it alters. | Jun 17 14:31 |
| oiaohm | vala has the option of still going straight to C MinceR if wanted. | Jun 17 14:31 |
| oiaohm | vala is mostly using the gobject system to pick up funtionality. | Jun 17 14:32 |
| MinceR | and the gobject system is a part of glib, isn't it? | Jun 17 14:33 |
| oiaohm | vala is still using prexisting libs. | Jun 17 14:33 |
| oiaohm | gobject system is a design. | Jun 17 14:33 |
| MinceR | c is using preexisting libs, too -- libc and libstdc++ :) | Jun 17 14:33 |
| oiaohm | You don't need glib to use it. | Jun 17 14:33 |
| MinceR | no support functions? | Jun 17 14:33 |
| oiaohm | Its like a windows com object. | Jun 17 14:33 |
| oiaohm | c does not use libstdc++ only c++ uses libstdc++. | Jun 17 14:34 |
| oiaohm | vala has avoided needing any new functions MinceR. | Jun 17 14:34 |
| oiaohm | Its used where able everything that existed when it was designed. | Jun 17 14:35 |
| MinceR | and how well does it handle abstract data structures like hash tables without glib? | Jun 17 14:35 |
| MinceR | (assuming that libstdc++ includes STL bits, for example) | Jun 17 14:35 |
| neighborlee | oh btw..stilll no ecma response..Sam just verified to me..he sent message I believe around 4/29 so its going on 2 months almost. | Jun 17 14:35 |
| neighborlee | I guess they have to goto cellar to find license :) <or some space station> | Jun 17 14:36 |
| oiaohm | glib is not the only lib that can do those functions MinceR. | Jun 17 14:36 |
| polywaffle | this whole interoperability and cross platform thing for me is beyond a joke really | Jun 17 14:36 |
| oiaohm | That is the thing about vala the language is like C it is not designed locked to anything MinceR. | Jun 17 14:36 |
| oiaohm | C you change the libc or don't have it you can still use C as it design was intentend. | Jun 17 14:37 |
| oiaohm | Same with vala. | Jun 17 14:37 |
| oiaohm | Good language designs don't bind themselves into stuff. | Jun 17 14:38 |
| MinceR | oiaohm: btw can you show that ada is faster than c++ | Jun 17 14:38 |
| MinceR | ? | Jun 17 14:38 |
| MinceR | the benchmark i've found shows it losing to c++ in all tests | Jun 17 14:38 |
| MinceR | http://shootout.alioth.debian.org/u32q/benchmark.php?test=all&lang=all&box=1 | Jun 17 14:38 |
| MinceR | wait, i think i'm misinterpreting the table | Jun 17 14:39 |
| MinceR | it did lose in execution time in all tests | Jun 17 14:40 |
| MinceR | by a large margin | Jun 17 14:40 |
| MinceR | memory use shows a wide variance both ways. | Jun 17 14:41 |
| -BNc/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] Microsoft and Novell Share a Goal of Eliminating Free GNU/Linux, Imposing Software Patents < http://ping.fm/yIRNv > | Jun 17 14:42 | |
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| oiaohm | MinceR: there is a reason. Its a old language. optimisation tech is no where near as developed as C or C++. Focus moved away from it when the unrolling loops logical solve threw items were added to compliers. | Jun 17 14:44 |
| MinceR | C is an old language too, isn't it? :> | Jun 17 14:46 |
| ThistleWeb | bbl | Jun 17 14:46 |
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| oiaohm | There is a difference more focus has been done on it optmiser MinceR. | Jun 17 14:48 |
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| oiaohm | If complier was path solving. gnat gcc and g++ all should run those test inside exactly the same ammount of resources. | Jun 17 14:49 |
| oiaohm | Since they are all basically the same complier. | Jun 17 14:50 |
| MinceR | which means i still wouldn't see any reason to switch to ada's object system :> | Jun 17 14:50 |
| oiaohm | You asked on design. | Jun 17 14:51 |
| oiaohm | Design ada has it. Implement no it don't. | Jun 17 14:51 |
| oiaohm | This is the problem sometimes the biggest pig of a langauge can be the fastest just because its optmiser is working the best. | Jun 17 14:52 |
| MinceR | what do you mean by "pig" then? | Jun 17 14:52 |
| oiaohm | By design it should be heavy. | Jun 17 14:52 |
| MinceR | why does it matter if the optimizer makes it perform well? | Jun 17 14:56 |
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| oiaohm | http://blogs.sun.com/BestPerf/entry/free_compiler_wins_nehalem_race << This is C and C++ vs each other on different compliers MinceR | Jun 17 14:59 |
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| oiaohm | gcc gets it tail kicked completely MinceR. | Jun 17 15:00 |
| oiaohm | Its not a language difference its pure optimiser. | Jun 17 15:00 |
| MinceR | differences existing between different compilers doesn't mean that there are no differences between languages. | Jun 17 15:03 |
| oiaohm | This is the problem. | Jun 17 15:03 |
| oiaohm | There are differences between languages. | Jun 17 15:04 |
| oiaohm | But when it comes down to it the final decider is the optmiser. | Jun 17 15:04 |
| MinceR | an object system can well mean that there's more or less overhead due to the amount of administration required | Jun 17 15:04 |
| oiaohm | A complier with a good solve could effectively remove the object system if its not required. | Jun 17 15:05 |
| MinceR | for example, python's object system keeps object members in a dictionary | Jun 17 15:05 |
| MinceR | if it's not required. but it often is. | Jun 17 15:05 |
| MinceR | and there are limits to what a real optimizer can do :) | Jun 17 15:05 |
| oiaohm | Yes and no. | Jun 17 15:06 |
| oiaohm | Its more a limitation on what we can code a optimizer to detect. | Jun 17 15:07 |
| oiaohm | and time. | Jun 17 15:07 |
| -BNc/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] SCO is Not Rescued Yet, But Group with Microsoft Connections Waves Money < http://ping.fm/XInaC > | Jun 17 15:07 | |
| oiaohm | There are still lots of methods of optimisation gcc does not have. | Jun 17 15:07 |
| oiaohm | That can make massive difference to results. | Jun 17 15:08 |
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| oiaohm | Like gcc cannot solve threw libs. Cannot whole program optmise. These really limit and cause lot of performance loses. | Jun 17 15:09 |
| oiaohm | There are other compliers like gcc than can do both. | Jun 17 15:10 |
| oiaohm | Really MinceR we don't know what the limit of a real optimizer is. No one has built a optimizer with every feature invented yet. | Jun 17 15:12 |
| MinceR | some external links would be a natural limit | Jun 17 15:12 |
| MinceR | after all if you don't know what code interacts with yours through memory, you can't change the interface | Jun 17 15:12 |
| MinceR | for example, an object passed to/from a shared library | Jun 17 15:13 |
| oiaohm | Solve threw to shared library does allow a lot of things. Like changing the function called in the library if there is a better one to use or bipassing the library if it will be faster. | Jun 17 15:14 |
| oiaohm | This is the issue even at the call level we have not fully seen what a optmiser can do. | Jun 17 15:15 |
| oiaohm | .so/.dll most likely have a limit on provided interfaces. But program using them where does the optimiser have to stop. | Jun 17 15:16 |
| MinceR | and then you'll have a nice crash once you do a minor version upgrade on the shared library. :> | Jun 17 15:16 |
| MinceR | (except that such things will break anyway on windows due to their braindead way of handling DLLs) | Jun 17 15:16 |
| oiaohm | Currently printf("hello") in gcc will swap to puts("hello") | Jun 17 15:18 |
| oiaohm | Difference gets to avoid printf scanning string. | Jun 17 15:18 |
| oiaohm | So faster. | Jun 17 15:19 |
| oiaohm | There would be a lot of calls used that could be swapped like this. | Jun 17 15:19 |
| MinceR | that would do nothing to objects being passed | Jun 17 15:19 |
| oiaohm | sqrt(4) being replace with 2. | Jun 17 15:20 |
| oiaohm | So call was never done. | Jun 17 15:20 |
| oiaohm | there are also a lot of them. | Jun 17 15:20 |
| oiaohm | This is what I am getting at there are a lot areas we are not solving out yet. | Jun 17 15:21 |
| oiaohm | These are like baby step solves once we can do them we can go after more complex ones. | Jun 17 15:22 |
| MinceR | you still can't optimize out the handling of public interfaces. | Jun 17 15:23 |
| MinceR | as long as the function call still needs to happen. | Jun 17 15:23 |
| MinceR | which means that the way the object system works still matterrs | Jun 17 15:24 |
| MinceR | s/rr/r/ | Jun 17 15:24 |
| oiaohm | But a true solve out could reduce the difference between C doing oop and c++. | Jun 17 15:26 |
| oiaohm | Since code paths would be locatable. | Jun 17 15:26 |
| oiaohm | Flaw finders already can find the code paths. Even in the object system inside a program there is room for smarter handling. | Jun 17 15:28 |
| oiaohm | Like working out the complete object struct did not need to be passed to a function because only 1 var was required. | Jun 17 15:29 |
| oiaohm | this kind of high level aware optimiser does not exist. | Jun 17 15:29 |
| MinceR | i still doubt you can do that across a shared library interface. | Jun 17 15:30 |
| oiaohm | In shared libs it would be detection of releated functions. | Jun 17 15:30 |
| oiaohm | And using the most suitable functions. | Jun 17 15:31 |
| oiaohm | This still could mean avoiding sending the complete object struct accross if it really was not required. | Jun 17 15:31 |
| oiaohm | Good example in ada and gcc and it explains why it slower than it should. You do a print function it goes to a wraper function that don't solve out to a printf or a puts | Jun 17 15:33 |
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| oiaohm | If you were truly solving through everything in the print function is predictable. | Jun 17 15:33 |
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| oiaohm | This is how come those compares are not exactly that valid. | Jun 17 15:34 |
| oiaohm | Lot of languages are competing with 1 hand tied behind there back. | Jun 17 15:34 |
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| splosion | Eww. Article on cnet about Android running faster than Windows 7. Well duh. Still about 50% of the comments are from people denying this. Gartner said so, is the apparent reason why | Jun 17 15:44 |
| MinceR | lol | Jun 17 15:45 |
| schestowitz | CNET makes me ill | Jun 17 15:45 |
| schestowitz | It even got worse over time, AFAICT | Jun 17 15:45 |
| splosion | and people saying, "these chips can't run rich operating systems like windows. it's a shame!" what the fuck is this shit? What is a rich operating system? | Jun 17 15:45 |
| schestowitz | I read CNET for over a year (like 50 items/day) | Jun 17 15:46 |
| schestowitz | splosion: fug-get it | Jun 17 15:46 |
| schestowitz | It's AstroTurfed | Jun 17 15:46 |
| schestowitz | PR agents | Jun 17 15:46 |
| schestowitz | ZDNet toop | Jun 17 15:46 |
| schestowitz | *too | Jun 17 15:46 |
| schestowitz | There's evidence | Jun 17 15:46 |
| schestowitz | Let those sites rot like /., which suffers similarly | Jun 17 15:46 |
| -BNc/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] Who Sponsored Forrester’s Latest Attack on Free Software? < http://ping.fm/j4Rtv > | Jun 17 15:47 | |
| splosion | /. hasn't been so bad lately | Jun 17 15:47 |
| Eruaran | hello | Jun 17 15:48 |
| splosion | still, browsing at -1 is *chore* | Jun 17 15:48 |
| MinceR | splosion: it's rich because it _makes_ them rich ;) | Jun 17 15:49 |
| schestowitz | I was gonna say that too | Jun 17 15:49 |
| schestowitz | Beat me to it | Jun 17 15:49 |
| schestowitz | Like "healthy" means fat | Jun 17 15:50 |
| MinceR | i've given up on browsing at -1 already, even when i have modpoints | Jun 17 15:50 |
| MinceR | it undid my moderation when i posted even though i posted as AC | Jun 17 15:50 |
| MinceR | that pissed me off | Jun 17 15:50 |
| splosion | MinceR: I sometimes spot comments modded as trolls that aren't trolls at all. And I don't know how, but I seem to get mod points every week. I'd like to know how that works | Jun 17 15:51 |
| MinceR | i know, i just stopped caring | Jun 17 15:51 |
| splosion | tis easy | Jun 17 15:52 |
| DaemonMDV | IE 8 ads on Hulu | Jun 17 15:55 |
| DaemonMDV | full blown commercials even | Jun 17 15:55 |
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| splosion | Opera consuming 207mb of ram. Hrmm. Still I've had this browser open since yesterday. Firefox would be edging into my swapspace if I had left it on that long | Jun 17 15:57 |
| splosion | Firefox's memory leaks make me sad | Jun 17 15:57 |
| MinceR | all browsers suck | Jun 17 15:57 |
| splosion | I want Chrome's speed, Opera's slickness, Firefox's addons and Safari's HTML5 capabilities. :( | Jun 17 15:58 |
| MinceR | i want Links2's speed and Opera's and Firefox's capabilities | Jun 17 15:58 |
| splosion | hah | Jun 17 15:59 |
| DaemonMDV | Firefox guzzles as much or more | Jun 17 16:01 |
| DaemonMDV | and it's slower to render pages | Jun 17 16:02 |
| DaemonMDV | :D | Jun 17 16:02 |
| splosion | it is | Jun 17 16:02 |
| splosion | Hoping they manage to do something about that | Jun 17 16:03 |
| *DaemonMDV ties MinceR up and makes him watch that IE 8 commercial with the fat chick and the lolcats | Jun 17 16:03 | |
| *MinceR minces DaemonMDV | Jun 17 16:03 | |
| splosion | lol. I should make more use of my nick's verb capabilities. | Jun 17 16:04 |
| *liberfiasco is now known as libervisco | Jun 17 16:05 | |
| schestowitz | Heh. | Jun 17 16:06 |
| schestowitz | "Gnote lacks 66% of Tomboy's language support (5 versus 15), and 70% of Tomboy's extensions (4 versus 13). " --directhex http://brainstorm.ubuntu.com/idea/20257/ | Jun 17 16:06 |
| trmanco | só? | Jun 17 16:06 |
| trmanco | Gnote is not Tomboy | Jun 17 16:06 |
| MinceR | they forgot the part ", and 100% of Tomboy's patent issues (0 versus several)." or something like that. | Jun 17 16:08 |
| DaemonMDV | and who cares? | Jun 17 16:11 |
| DaemonMDV | it's a widget | Jun 17 16:11 |
| DaemonMDV | a widget designed to waste RAM | Jun 17 16:11 |
| -BNc/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] New Push for Gnote in Ubuntu by Default < http://ping.fm/Pu2LP > | Jun 17 16:12 | |
| trmanco | 1 MB of ram, so who cares? | Jun 17 16:12 |
| DaemonMDV | Tomboy takes about 40 | Jun 17 16:12 |
| trmanco | I'm talking minimums, not max | Jun 17 16:13 |
| DaemonMDV | if Ubuntu wants to get themselves in legal trouble, the least they could do is throw in something useful | Jun 17 16:13 |
| DaemonMDV | like AAC codecs | Jun 17 16:13 |
| DaemonMDV | :) | Jun 17 16:13 |
| trmanco | heh | Jun 17 16:13 |
| DaemonMDV | but a note-taking widget? | Jun 17 16:13 |
| DaemonMDV | shit | Jun 17 16:13 |
| splosion | I wonder. How do distros such as Mint get away with putting media codecs into the default install? | Jun 17 16:14 |
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| DaemonMDV | if Ubuntu was a burglar, they'd have skipped the 42" plasma television to get caught heisting the dog's chew toy | Jun 17 16:14 |
| DaemonMDV | :D | Jun 17 16:14 |
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| Np237 | hey there | Jun 17 16:18 |
| splosion | Slingshot is such an addictive game | Jun 17 16:18 |
| splosion | And it's so satisfying when you kill the other player with about 2 seconds left on the time-out | Jun 17 16:19 |
| Np237 | I’ve thought again of all the Mono and Tomboy thing, and I thought of a fair solution | Jun 17 16:20 |
| splosion | ooh | Jun 17 16:20 |
| Np237 | since you obviously don’t want Mono in Debian | Jun 17 16:20 |
| Np237 | while Microsoft obviously wants it in Debian | Jun 17 16:20 |
| Np237 | I propose that you gather the same amount of money that Microsoft paid me for doing this change | Jun 17 16:21 |
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| Np237 | after that I’ll think of reverting it | Jun 17 16:21 |
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| MinceR | i propose that they bar you from affecting debian packages | Jun 17 16:23 |
| MinceR | and remove mono | Jun 17 16:23 |
| DaemonMDV | as usual, the only decent audio tools are for Windows | Jun 17 16:23 |
| DaemonMDV | unless I feel like dicking around with this Fisher Price bullshit | Jun 17 16:24 |
| DaemonMDV | Wine to the rescue | Jun 17 16:24 |
| MinceR | fisher price like xp and vista? :> | Jun 17 16:24 |
| DaemonMDV | no, worse | Jun 17 16:24 |
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| MinceR | fisher price like crApple then? | Jun 17 16:24 |
| DaemonMDV | as in, FAAC can go up to 500k, but the bullshit GNOME utilities only let you go up to 200k | Jun 17 16:25 |
| splosion | One of these might be somewhat useful to you, DaemonMDV http://blog.audiojungle.net/resources/29-music-making-apps-for-linux/ | Jun 17 16:25 |
| MinceR | <random> mine goes to 11! </random> | Jun 17 16:25 |
| DaemonMDV | the only way they can make Vorbis seem better is to cripple AAC | Jun 17 16:25 |
| splosion | oh, encoding | Jun 17 16:25 |
| Np237 | DaemonMDV: if you want 500k, why not using flac or mp3? | Jun 17 16:25 |
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| splosion | use ffmpeg dawg | Jun 17 16:25 |
| DaemonMDV | cause it's not CBR | Jun 17 16:26 |
| Np237 | DaemonMDV: MP3 is | Jun 17 16:26 |
| DaemonMDV | the encoder still has the call over what bitrate to use per frame | Jun 17 16:26 |
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| Np237 | and at high bitrates MP3 beats everything else out there | Jun 17 16:26 |
| DaemonMDV | you end up with files that aren't that much larger than 320k MP3 | Jun 17 16:26 |
| DaemonMDV | but sound a lot better | Jun 17 16:26 |
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| Np237 | oh, I see, you’re one of those guys who think they can make a difference between 320k MP3 and lossless | Jun 17 16:27 |
| DaemonMDV | it's not that hard with most codecs | Jun 17 16:27 |
| DaemonMDV | Vorbis and WMA are the worst | Jun 17 16:28 |
| DaemonMDV | MP3 is alright | Jun 17 16:28 |
| Np237 | I’m talking of a good encoder, like LAME or Vorbis with latest improvements | Jun 17 16:28 |
| DaemonMDV | yay | Jun 17 16:28 |
| DaemonMDV | new Firefox | Jun 17 16:28 |
| DaemonMDV | took them long enough | Jun 17 16:28 |
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| DaemonMDV | Reason for update: Security vulnerabilities have been discovered in previous versions, and corrected in the latest Mozilla Firefox 3.x, version 3.0.10. (CVE-2009-1302, CVE-2009-1303, CVE-2009-1304, CVE-2009-1305, CVE-2009-0652, CVE-2009-1306, CVE-2009-1307, CVE-2009-1308, CVE-2009-1309, CVE-2009-1310, CVE-2009-1311, CVE-2009-1312, CVE-2009-1313) | Jun 17 16:28 |
| DaemonMDV | heh | Jun 17 16:29 |
| DaemonMDV | Firefox Explorer | Jun 17 16:29 |
| DaemonMDV | :P | Jun 17 16:29 |
| DaemonMDV | they should just rename it that to honor all the security problems | Jun 17 16:29 |
| Np237 | I’m quite disappointed that you people are not interested in my proposal, though | Jun 17 16:29 |
| Np237 | don’t you want Mono out of Debian ? | Jun 17 16:29 |
| splosion | Np237: My connection asploded just before you said it. soz | Jun 17 16:30 |
| *MinceR wonders how DaemonMDV managed to make mp3 better than vorbis in his mind | Jun 17 16:30 | |
| MinceR | Np237: i think my proposal is better. | Jun 17 16:30 |
| neighborlee | Np237, Who should take you seriously , given the language you have maintained ? | Jun 17 16:30 |
| neighborlee | MinceR, ditto | Jun 17 16:30 |
| Np237 | MinceR: unfortunately this is only an option for Debian developers, and you are not one | Jun 17 16:31 |
| Np237 | this is why my proposal is fairer, since it is available to anyone | Jun 17 16:31 |
| MinceR | Np237: we'll see what debian developers think, then. | Jun 17 16:31 |
| MinceR | Np237: your proposal is pretty much just an unabashed attempt to squeeze more bribes out of both sides. | Jun 17 16:32 |
| MinceR | if debian operates on bribes now then i don't see why anyone should care about it. | Jun 17 16:32 |
| Np237 | MinceR: obviously I’m in the good position to ask for those | Jun 17 16:33 |
| MinceR | it will just wither on its own. | Jun 17 16:33 |
| splosion | DaemonMDV: anyway. "ffmpeg -i someshit.blah -acodec libfaac -ab 500k output.blah" there. tools. you has them | Jun 17 16:33 |
| MinceR | Np237: if you're in a good position to ask for those then debian is already doomed. | Jun 17 16:33 |
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| MinceR | Np237: in which case i'll just watch it die instead of paying the bribe and then watching it die anyway. | Jun 17 16:33 |
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| MinceR | Np237: remember that debian was founded on the idea of free software and at least until now it mattered. | Jun 17 16:33 |
| Np237 | MinceR: yeah, and even RMS will tell you that the possibility to pay for free software is fundamental | Jun 17 16:34 |
| neighborlee | thankfullly just as in world politics, normal peoples views are quite capable of making change, to think otherwise is an indication of a mindset not unlike the pharasies, and we know how far THEY got dont we | Jun 17 16:34 |
| Np237 | free software != freeware | Jun 17 16:34 |
| MinceR | Np237: i can't verify how much authority you have on debian, so i can't tell if you're just plain lying to us. | Jun 17 16:34 |
| MinceR | Np237: patent-encumbered software is not free software. | Jun 17 16:34 |
| MinceR | Np237: RMS will tell you that. | Jun 17 16:34 |
| Np237 | fortunately I live in a country where we piss everyday on software patents | Jun 17 16:35 |
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| _Hicham_ | Hi All! | Jun 17 16:35 |
| MinceR | you'll find that not all debian users and developers do | Jun 17 16:35 |
| neighborlee | Np237, Your concern for your fellow human, is touching. | Jun 17 16:35 |
| _Hicham_ | MinceR : what does debian users do? | Jun 17 16:36 |
| MinceR | 175154 < Np237> fortunately I live in a country where we piss everyday on software patents | Jun 17 16:36 |
| Np237 | MinceR: anyway, if you don’t want to pay (too bad, that’s the easiest way) you can try to find another Debian developer that will appeal to the Technical committee | Jun 17 16:36 |
| Np237 | they have the power to force me to revert the change | Jun 17 16:36 |
| MinceR | Np237: i'll just wait and see what happens. | Jun 17 16:36 |
| Np237 | MinceR: bummer | Jun 17 16:36 |
| MinceR | Np237: and i'll draw the conclusions. | Jun 17 16:37 |
| Np237 | MinceR: you’re likely to see many things happen, but probably not to your liking then | Jun 17 16:37 |
| MinceR | Np237: it shouldn't be necessary for me to say anything for debian's leaders to notice what you're up to and to stop you. | Jun 17 16:38 |
| DaemonMDV | splosion: How does that scale to thousands of files? :D | Jun 17 16:38 |
| splosion | DaemonMDV: that's why we use shell scripts! | Jun 17 16:38 |
| Np237 | MinceR: what should they stop me for? | Jun 17 16:38 |
| MinceR | Np237: not really, i'll only see one thing happen that isn't to my liking and then i'll just write it off. | Jun 17 16:38 |
| Np237 | duuuuuuuuh that sounds scary | Jun 17 16:38 |
| splosion | or an app like winff if you insist on a gui. quick stuff | Jun 17 16:39 |
| MinceR | Np237: compromising the ideals behind the project for a bribe? | Jun 17 16:39 |
| MinceR | Np237: and even publicly admitting it? | Jun 17 16:39 |
| MinceR | Np237: but i think you're just trolling | Jun 17 16:39 |
| Np237 | nah, I can’t do it publicly | Jun 17 16:39 |
| MinceR | we get loads of trolls every day | Jun 17 16:39 |
| Np237 | that’s why I came to IRC to talk about it first | Jun 17 16:39 |
| MinceR | so your next interesting idea is that a publicly logged IRC channel almost anyone can join is somehow not public | Jun 17 16:40 |
| DaemonMDV | nope, I have a $1,000 machine to use as a console from 1970 | Jun 17 16:40 |
| DaemonMDV | :D | Jun 17 16:40 |
| Np237 | MinceR: it’s publicly logged ????? | Jun 17 16:40 |
| MinceR | i think we're going to see something hilarious from you any time now | Jun 17 16:40 |
| MinceR | Np237: can you read the topic? | Jun 17 16:40 |
| MinceR | Np237: also, have you seen http://boycottnovell.com/ ? | Jun 17 16:41 |
| Np237 | erm, is it possible to remove the lines where I talked from the log then? | Jun 17 16:41 |
| MinceR | you'll have to ask schestowitz about that. | Jun 17 16:42 |
| MinceR | it doesn't make any difference though | Jun 17 16:42 |
| MinceR | anyone on an irc channel can log it | Jun 17 16:42 |
| MinceR | and publish the log | Jun 17 16:42 |
| MinceR | automatic logging is a commonly used feature | Jun 17 16:42 |
| splosion | DaemonMDV: blam! http://up.mibbit.com/up/DNrbGUL5.png | Jun 17 16:43 |
| MinceR | anyway, why would you want them to be removed? | Jun 17 16:43 |
| MinceR | splosion: what's that? | Jun 17 16:43 |
| splosion | MinceR: a front-end to ffmpeg that doesn't suck | Jun 17 16:44 |
| MinceR | ic | Jun 17 16:44 |
| Np237 | MinceR: because I talked about things that aren’t supposed to be public | Jun 17 16:44 |
| MinceR | Np237: well, it's too late now | Jun 17 16:44 |
| MinceR | the people who are here have seen it all | Jun 17 16:44 |
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| DaemonMDV | love how nothing on Linux warns you about dependencies til it fails and segfaults | Jun 17 16:45 |
| DaemonMDV | that's always a nice surprise | Jun 17 16:46 |
| MinceR | bullshit | Jun 17 16:46 |
| *splosion` is now known as splosion | Jun 17 16:46 | |
| _Hicham_ | DaemonMDV can't be linked to any existing library | Jun 17 16:46 |
| DaemonMDV | I guess that's why this thing didn't mention it needed xterm til it went to start encoding, couldn't find it | Jun 17 16:46 |
| DaemonMDV | and crashed | Jun 17 16:46 |
| DaemonMDV | then it ignores the parameters I gave it | Jun 17 16:48 |
| MinceR | Np237: i still think you're just trolling though | Jun 17 16:48 |
| DaemonMDV | and proceeds to encode everythign at 112k anyway | Jun 17 16:48 |
| splosion | DaemonMDV: make your own presets | Jun 17 16:48 |
| DaemonMDV | I did | Jun 17 16:48 |
| splosion | sucks to be you! | Jun 17 16:48 |
| DaemonMDV | oh, you have to hit Add/Update, I got confused and hit Save | Jun 17 16:48 |
| splosion | haha | Jun 17 16:49 |
| DaemonMDV | gee, I guess user abuse concepts weren't lost on these people | Jun 17 16:49 |
| Np237 | MinceR: I’m not trolling, it could really cause me some trouble | Jun 17 16:50 |
| splosion | I can't remember the ffmpeg options to enable spreading the encoding over all the cores your processor may have. I know they're not in any of the presets, though. that'll speed things up a lot | Jun 17 16:50 |
| MinceR | Np237: in that case, perhaps we could make a deal after all | Jun 17 16:50 |
| DaemonMDV | *and it kills the tags in the FLAC file | Jun 17 16:50 |
| DaemonMDV | great | Jun 17 16:50 |
| MinceR | you'd have to make a deal with everyone present of course | Jun 17 16:50 |
| DaemonMDV | this is all kinds of fun :P | Jun 17 16:50 |
| splosion | DaemonMDV: oh yeah. I forgot about that. ffmpeg doesn't give a shit about your tags. sorry dude | Jun 17 16:51 |
| splosion | :( | Jun 17 16:51 |
| MinceR | Np237: something along the lines of 1) you'll remove mono as a dependency 2) you'll pay everyone of us as much as m$ paid you 3) you'll remove yourself from the debian project permanently and in exchange we'll forget what happened and remove it from our log files :> | Jun 17 16:51 |
| Np237 | sorry I don’t have that much money | Jun 17 16:52 |
| Np237 | could you share what MS gave me among yourselves? | Jun 17 16:52 |
| MinceR | i can only speak for myself | Jun 17 16:53 |
| DaemonMDV | this is so god damned frustrating | Jun 17 16:53 |
| Np237 | MinceR: I need to be sure that at least the logs won’t be published on BN | Jun 17 16:54 |
| DaemonMDV | would it kill any Linux programmer to write an interface that doesn't compare favorable with being put in an iron maiden? | Jun 17 16:54 |
| MinceR | Np237: only schestowitz can decide that. | Jun 17 16:54 |
| splosion | DaemonMDV: if I had the need to encode four billion CDs I'd probably write a bash script or maybe something python to automate everything with tags and stuff. but as I don't need to do that I don't have the energy. Sorry! | Jun 17 16:54 |
| MinceR | it's his site | Jun 17 16:54 |
| MinceR | (well, others are involved too but i'm not sure if i can see them now) | Jun 17 16:55 |
| neighborlee | DaemonMDV, lol | Jun 17 16:55 |
| neighborlee | DaemonMDV, cute reference ;)),,like it ;) | Jun 17 16:55 |
| neighborlee | DaemonMDV, ha | Jun 17 16:55 |
| DaemonMDV | seriously, there's the GNOME applet that you can use but has been crippled to favor total simplicity | Jun 17 16:55 |
| DaemonMDV | then there's the gulag of WinFF | Jun 17 16:56 |
| DaemonMDV | :D | Jun 17 16:56 |
| splosion | haha | Jun 17 16:56 |
| Np237 | MinceR: fine, could you ask him when he gets back? I have to go hide this fact to MS now, please let me know by email | Jun 17 16:56 |
| neighborlee | DaemonMDV, gnome crippleware, simpleware..your kidding me ! | Jun 17 16:56 |
| DaemonMDV | where the FUCK is the Linux version of BonkEnc or CDEx? | Jun 17 16:56 |
| MinceR | Np237: why can't you wait for him to get back? | Jun 17 16:56 |
| neighborlee | DaemonMDV, oh wait ok gotcha..yeah what linus said..true that, been there,done THAT ;) | Jun 17 16:56 |
| DaemonMDV | I should not have to run things in Wine to get an interface meant for humans | Jun 17 16:56 |
| MinceR | also, he probably has a public email address or something | Jun 17 16:57 |
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| -BNc/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] Switzerland and the UK Under Fire for Perpetual Microsoft Engagements < http://ping.fm/YWRwM > | Jun 17 16:57 | |
| *PetoKraus (n=pk@fsf/member/petokraus) has joined #boycottnovell | Jun 17 16:57 | |
| MinceR | also there's /msg and MemoServ | Jun 17 16:57 |
| MinceR | also note that any of us present at the time could have logged everything and could publish the log independently of schestowitz or BN | Jun 17 16:58 |
| neighborlee | DaemonMDV, wine is handy, but I try to avoid it ive had fairly bad luck with it o'er time...but sure it can be handy in pinch ;) | Jun 17 16:58 |
| DaemonMDV | see, there's setting 5 in FAAC which means something totally different than in FFMpeg | Jun 17 16:58 |
| DaemonMDV | then in FFMpeg you seem to be stuck with Average Bitrate | Jun 17 16:58 |
| DaemonMDV | where FAAC has a quality setting | Jun 17 16:58 |
| DaemonMDV | but the GNOME frontend to FAAC is totally wrong | Jun 17 16:59 |
| Np237 | MinceR: I have to go now to see my grandmother and carry her a cake and a little pot of butter | Jun 17 16:59 |
| splosion | don't forget ffmpeg has about ten bazillion options. You can change just about anything | Jun 17 16:59 |
| DaemonMDV | and the highest setting possible in that (~256k) ends up being more like ~200k | Jun 17 16:59 |
| DaemonMDV | which is fucking stupid | Jun 17 16:59 |
| DaemonMDV | so again, load Wine, run Nero AAC, be happy | Jun 17 16:59 |
| DaemonMDV | masturbate with time saved | Jun 17 17:00 |
| DaemonMDV | wonder why I am not buying Windows 7 | Jun 17 17:00 |
| neighborlee | MinceR, he's worried about a log here, when there is plenty of his foul mouth ramblings to be had surfing ? | Jun 17 17:00 |
| MinceR | DaemonMDV: wonder why you're still here | Jun 17 17:00 |
| neighborlee | MinceR, comic relief like no other | Jun 17 17:00 |
| MinceR | neighborlee: i think he's just trolling | Jun 17 17:00 |
| neighborlee | DaemonMDV, and you know I meant that lovingly; ;0- | Jun 17 17:00 |
| MinceR | perhaps he believes we believe all that | Jun 17 17:00 |
| DaemonMDV | and if you edit the gconf to something SOundConvertor does not understand it falls back to 128k | Jun 17 17:01 |
| neighborlee | MinceR, I ditto that ma friend | Jun 17 17:01 |
| DaemonMDV | even though it's a valid setting for FAAC | Jun 17 17:01 |
| DaemonMDV | why does all free software just totally fail to work together? | Jun 17 17:01 |
| *Np237 has quit ("The spice extends life") | Jun 17 17:01 | |
| neighborlee | MinceR, not likely... | Jun 17 17:01 |
| DaemonMDV | Why does it all so closely resemble what I have described? | Jun 17 17:01 |
| neighborlee | MinceR, doesnt matter..its easy to affect change, you just have to talk to the right people. | Jun 17 17:02 |
| splosion | Huh. Someone's already made a python script called dir2ogg. I'll see about botching it to do faac at whatever-the-hell-you-like bitrate. The tag stuff in here looks good. preserves tags. nice | Jun 17 17:02 |
| DaemonMDV | the only way to get a decent AAC file is to run Windows software in Wine | Jun 17 17:02 |
| DaemonMDV | otherwise you'll spend all day fucking around with everything Linux-native and wondering why none of it works right | Jun 17 17:03 |
| neighborlee | DaemonMDV, well windows has been around a fair bit longer..to duplicate all there is in that land may take sometime longer..like anything in life YMMV | Jun 17 17:03 |
| neighborlee | DaemonMDV, but man we're here for you.... | Jun 17 17:03 |
| DaemonMDV | oh, but they never cripple Vorbis | Jun 17 17:03 |
| DaemonMDV | they never do | Jun 17 17:03 |
| DaemonMDV | every setting Vorbis is capable of is ALWAYS in the GUI | Jun 17 17:04 |
| DaemonMDV | *ALWAYS* | Jun 17 17:04 |
| DaemonMDV | they artificially handicap competing formats | Jun 17 17:04 |
| splosion | how about the LDE apps? | Jun 17 17:04 |
| splosion | KDE | Jun 17 17:04 |
| MinceR | it's easy to synchronize free software projects | Jun 17 17:04 |
| MinceR | with all the communication and cooperation going on | Jun 17 17:04 |
| DaemonMDV | they also don't sabotage LAME/MP3 because too many users use that and would bitch | Jun 17 17:04 |
| DaemonMDV | so they hide WMA encoding even though you can do it if you have the right backend | Jun 17 17:05 |
| MinceR | also probably less people care about AAC | Jun 17 17:05 |
| DaemonMDV | and they cripple AAC | Jun 17 17:05 |
| _Hicham_ | u really should work on providing a good quality GUI for AAC encoding | Jun 17 17:05 |
| _Hicham_ | can u start that project? | Jun 17 17:05 |
| DaemonMDV | yeah, just help me find a recursive acronym for GNOME Is Not GNOME | Jun 17 17:06 |
| DaemonMDV | and then we'll set out to unfuck this whole god damned thing | Jun 17 17:06 |
| DaemonMDV | :D | Jun 17 17:06 |
| MinceR | GING Is Not GING? | Jun 17 17:07 |
| _Hicham_ | it is not that difficult | Jun 17 17:07 |
| _Hicham_ | do u have some experience in GTK programming? | Jun 17 17:07 |
| DaemonMDV | let's rewrite GNOME in GTK# | Jun 17 17:07 |
| DaemonMDV | have Mono just be at the heart of all of it | Jun 17 17:08 |
| _Hicham_ | they already begun that | Jun 17 17:08 |
| _Hicham_ | it is called Vala | Jun 17 17:08 |
| _Hicham_ | a C# like language | Jun 17 17:08 |
| DaemonMDV | and then we can write the file manager in VB.Net | Jun 17 17:08 |
| _Hicham_ | why not | Jun 17 17:08 |
| _Hicham_ | Mono's idea is not new | Jun 17 17:08 |
| splosion | The commandline tools to do the stuff DaemonMDV wants already exist. I'm looking through a bunch of things that do just that. It wouldn't be too difficult to do some sort of GTK interface as a front-end | Jun 17 17:09 |
| DaemonMDV | I just want a frontend to AAC that can deal with all the options you can pass to it | Jun 17 17:09 |
| DaemonMDV | *FAAC that is | Jun 17 17:09 |
| DaemonMDV | or failing that, something that can pass stuff to Nero AAC for Linux | Jun 17 17:10 |
| MinceR | DaemonMDV: i know one, it's called gnome-terminal ;) | Jun 17 17:10 |
| DaemonMDV | no | Jun 17 17:10 |
| MinceR | kommander might work too | Jun 17 17:10 |
| DaemonMDV | cause Nero has no idea what a FLAC file is | Jun 17 17:10 |
| DaemonMDV | so I'd have to decompress them all to WAV or AIFF first | Jun 17 17:11 |
| MinceR | seriously, i don't even use a frontend for oggenc | Jun 17 17:11 |
| MinceR | or flac | Jun 17 17:11 |
| MinceR | you could write a shell script | Jun 17 17:11 |
| DaemonMDV | seems like the easiest way to make the whole AAC encoding process in Linux work is to use Windows softwre | Jun 17 17:12 |
| MinceR | "oh noes, i can't type one or two commands to decode FLAC and encode the result in AAC! it's so difficult!" | Jun 17 17:14 |
| DaemonMDV | too much work | Jun 17 17:14 |
| DaemonMDV | would take forever to do this many files by hand | Jun 17 17:14 |
| MinceR | indeed | Jun 17 17:14 |
| MinceR | so much work in fact, it would be more work than the whining you've done so far about it :> | Jun 17 17:15 |
| splosion | I think you've fundamentally missed the point of shell scripts | Jun 17 17:15 |
| DaemonMDV | I'd have to decompress the FLAC files, OK there's GUI for that in Linux, then one by one I'd have to convert the WAV to AAC | Jun 17 17:15 |
| MinceR | :) | Jun 17 17:15 |
| DaemonMDV | then I'd have to re-tag all of them | Jun 17 17:15 |
| MinceR | or you could write a for loop in bash | Jun 17 17:15 |
| MinceR | even on a single command line | Jun 17 17:15 |
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| MinceR | (or in a shell script) | Jun 17 17:16 |
| -BNc/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] Intellectual Monopoly Roundup: Comedy or Farce? < http://ping.fm/SuBVg > | Jun 17 17:17 | |
| neighborlee | all fun makes lee a dull poor boy..to the fields! | Jun 17 17:17 |
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| splosion | flac files basically use idv3 tags, right? | Jun 17 17:19 |
| splosion | if so, then yes, you could encode every flac on your hard drive as an m4a or wma or whatever the hell you wish and preserve the tags, and you could do it one line in a terminal | Jun 17 17:20 |
| splosion | discounting about 10 wordwraps | Jun 17 17:21 |
| splosion | and violating about a million patents | Jun 17 17:21 |
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| _Hicham_ | DaemonMDV using a shell script? | Jun 17 17:22 |
| -BNc/#boycottnovell-[davidgerard] dying of plant bukkake. tree spaff up nose and in eyes. send more loratadine and sudafed. | Jun 17 17:22 | |
| -BNc/#boycottnovell-[davidgerard] Call for ideas again: what news stories are filling you with telly-out-the-window RAAAGE? tell me for http://notnews.today.com/ | Jun 17 17:22 | |
| MinceR | 183820 < splosion> and violating about a million patents | Jun 17 17:23 |
| MinceR | :D | Jun 17 17:23 |
| _Hicham_ | I don't know why this DaemonMDV is so obsessed with encoding | Jun 17 17:23 |
| *DaemonMDV feeds _Hicham_ to Vorbis and watches it chew on his details | Jun 17 17:26 | |
| DaemonMDV | :P | Jun 17 17:26 |
| _Hicham_ | are u using a GUI? | Jun 17 17:27 |
| Eruaran | Huge street protests continue in Iran | Jun 17 17:27 |
| Eruaran | This uploaded to utube about an hour ago: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=swgQaf7oohc&feature=channel_page | Jun 17 17:27 |
| DaemonMDV | good thing I'm not in Iran and that I have no reason to care | Jun 17 17:28 |
| DaemonMDV | if they're that pissed off, they'll revolt and take down Ayatollah Cockamamie | Jun 17 17:28 |
| DaemonMDV | once and for all | Jun 17 17:28 |
| DaemonMDV | :) | Jun 17 17:28 |
| -BNc/#boycottnovell-[omar_s_hafez] Check this song out on #JamLegend, Heads Up, Hearts Down by I Fight Dragons http://is.gd/YBaD | Jun 17 17:37 | |
| -BNc/#boycottnovell-[omar_s_hafez] Just found a new amazing website! It's called JamLegend. You should check it out! www.jamlegend.com | Jun 17 17:37 | |
| schestowitz | New comment @ http://www.theopensourcerer.com/2008/11/16/how-to-remove-mono-from-ubuntu-intrepid-ibex/#comments | Jun 17 17:40 |
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| schestowitz | ====Quote > | Jun 17 17:40 |
| schestowitz | I believe the question of the pro-Microsoft mole that brought us the Mono infection can be described just by giving his name: | Jun 17 17:40 |
| schestowitz | Miguel de Icaza. | Jun 17 17:40 |
| schestowitz | He's a proven Microsoft shill, and he's even called OOXML a "superb standard." | Jun 17 17:40 |
| schestowitz | And yes, according to Mono's Wikipedia article, he's the creator of this disease fashioned against FOSS: | Jun 17 17:40 |
| schestowitz | "Miguel de Icaza became interested in .NET technology as soon as the .NET documents were released in December 2000." - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mono_(software) | Jun 17 17:40 |
| schestowitz | As a long-time developer of open source software, myself, I can already tell you I did *not* see the appeal in .NET, and frankly I saw the sort of damage projects like Mono could do because of clueless idiots like de Icaza. | Jun 17 17:40 |
| schestowitz | Actually, I think de Icaza would wet his pants with joy if Microsoft actually WERE to suddenly have a controlling interest in Linux, since he was such a big fan of .NET and OOXML. | Jun 17 17:40 |
| schestowitz | < Quote======= | Jun 17 17:40 |
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| DaemonMDV | well, I found a solution I think | Jun 17 17:45 |
| DaemonMDV | something called aTunes can act as a front end to Nero | Jun 17 17:45 |
| DaemonMDV | but I have to pull in a bunch of Java bullshit to use it | Jun 17 17:45 |
| DaemonMDV | oh well | Jun 17 17:45 |
| -BNc/#boycottnovell-[astralknight] Screenshots with Linux/Xfce : http://digg.com/d1u5qx?t | Jun 17 17:47 | |
| -BNc/#boycottnovell-[astralknight] Native Linux Nintendo Emulation for Palm Pre: http://digg.com/d1u5s7?t | Jun 17 17:52 | |
| -BNc/#boycottnovell-[astralknight] Firefox.next peek: profiling yourself: http://digg.com/d1u5tg?t | Jun 17 17:52 | |
| _Hicham_ | you are very proficient in Java | Jun 17 17:54 |
| _Hicham_ | it is not a problem for u | Jun 17 17:54 |
| DaemonMDV | hmm, gave up on that | Jun 17 17:54 |
| DaemonMDV | like all stuff written in JAVA | Jun 17 17:55 |
| DaemonMDV | way too bloated and laggy | Jun 17 17:55 |
| DaemonMDV | Foobar 2000 in Wine is still faster | Jun 17 17:55 |
| _Hicham_ | public static void main(String[] arg){ system.out.writeln("Mr DaemonFC, are u idiot?");} | Jun 17 17:57 |
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| schestowitz | He's nymshifting again. Ryan, if you keep changing names, you'll be banned. You were told this by people who try to /ignore you. | Jun 17 18:02 |
| -BNc/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] Patents Roundup: Where Microsoft Stands < http://ping.fm/J6oBi > | Jun 17 18:02 | |
| schestowitz | http://www.theinquirer.net/inquirer/news/1296857/microsoft-yahoo-deal-unlikely Now, that's a relief. | Jun 17 18:03 |
| schestowitz | Delivered though from Microsoft PR (their CNET puppet) | Jun 17 18:03 |
| DaemonMDV | Attention fucktards: /ignore *!*@c-67-173-86-85.hsd1.in.comcast.net | Jun 17 18:03 |
| DaemonMDV | have a nice day | Jun 17 18:03 |
| DaemonMDV | :) | Jun 17 18:03 |
| schestowitz | Michael's review gets some press coverage: http://www.theinquirer.net/inquirer/news/1271810/linux-ion-nettop-reviewed | Jun 17 18:04 |
| schestowitz | Watch your mouth | Jun 17 18:04 |
| schestowitz | From the very first day you came here you've been dissing Linux | Jun 17 18:05 |
| DaemonMDV | they make it needlessly hard to do anything with it just for the sake of doing so | Jun 17 18:07 |
| DaemonMDV | they don't need to give me lip service about patents and drivers or whatever | Jun 17 18:08 |
| DaemonMDV | just get out of my way and let me go get them | Jun 17 18:08 |
| DaemonMDV | but they actively impede my choice to use my software | Jun 17 18:08 |
| DaemonMDV | and it angers me | Jun 17 18:08 |
| DaemonMDV | there's no good reason to block the correct functioning of something the user has | Jun 17 18:09 |
| DaemonMDV | you don't have to *give* them what they need | Jun 17 18:09 |
| DaemonMDV | but why do they go out of their way to block it or cripple it? | Jun 17 18:10 |
| DaemonMDV | why do they have to cripple hardware that the user has just to drive home their point about their stuff? | Jun 17 18:10 |
| DaemonMDV | if their format is so great, let users come to it | Jun 17 18:11 |
| schestowitz | Digg Wants You To Create More Useful Apps < http://www.webpronews.com/topnews/2009/06/16/digg-wants-you-to-create-more-useful-apps > | Jun 17 18:11 |
| schestowitz | Digg is quite useless for news. | Jun 17 18:12 |
| -BNc/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] Folks think they can ban computer chips from being transported. http://ping.fm/7jHqU They can't even block drug trafficking. | Jun 17 18:12 | |
| -BNc/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] "...State Department revelations that it asked the company to delay maintenance..." http://ping.fm/dUChy | Jun 17 18:12 | |
| DaemonMDV | what these free software type projects are doing is usually no better than what they accuse Microsoft or Apple of doing | Jun 17 18:13 |
| MinceR | where do they get the money to do that? | Jun 17 18:13 |
| DaemonMDV | there's no difference between Microsoft crippling ODF support so you can't really use it and the GNOME project crippling all their transcoding tools to artificially limit AAC | Jun 17 18:14 |
| MinceR | and what hardware do they cripple? | Jun 17 18:14 |
| DaemonMDV | none at all | Jun 17 18:14 |
| MinceR | except things like market share? | Jun 17 18:14 |
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| DaemonMDV | GNU has penis envy because precisely nobody is using Vorbis | Jun 17 18:14 |
| DaemonMDV | so they have to resort to desperation and railroading | Jun 17 18:15 |
| MinceR | i guess i'll have to tell Epic Games they're nobody | Jun 17 18:15 |
| MinceR | and Cowon and Rio, too | Jun 17 18:15 |
| MinceR | and all the websites that use ogg formats to provide video and audio | Jun 17 18:16 |
| DaemonMDV | even if the device supports it, nobody will use it | Jun 17 18:16 |
| DaemonMDV | because nobody knows what a Vorbis file is | Jun 17 18:16 |
| MinceR | so you're nobody | Jun 17 18:16 |
| DaemonMDV | they don't market them as Vorbis players | Jun 17 18:16 |
| DaemonMDV | so nobody will really bother looking | Jun 17 18:16 |
| MinceR | it's part of the specs | Jun 17 18:16 |
| MinceR | there's often even an icon showing it off | Jun 17 18:16 |
| DaemonMDV | so do you still have to use MTP to transfer them if you want the device to work properly? | Jun 17 18:17 |
| -BNc/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] Japan Makes Private Copying Illegal http://ping.fm/xJ3ZJ | Jun 17 18:17 | |
| DaemonMDV | or do you want to copy over album art and playlists manually? | Jun 17 18:17 |
| schestowitz | Italy Is The Latest Country To Realize IP Address Alone Does Not ID File Sharers < http://techdirt.com/articles/20090615/1055035238.shtml > | Jun 17 18:17 |
| DaemonMDV | folder by folder? | Jun 17 18:17 |
| MinceR | why would i have to use MTP? | Jun 17 18:17 |
| splosion | Hey now, don't blame Linux for lousy MTP support. It was designed that way | Jun 17 18:17 |
| DaemonMDV | cause MSC mode does not properly integrate expansion cards | Jun 17 18:17 |
| DaemonMDV | Linux will see them as two storage devices | Jun 17 18:18 |
| DaemonMDV | and there's the playlists and album art | Jun 17 18:18 |
| MinceR | in general, why would i have to use protocols that were invented only because m$ has a bad case of NIH syndrome? | Jun 17 18:18 |
| DaemonMDV | and the fact that you can't sync the player in MSC mode | Jun 17 18:18 |
| MinceR | oh noes, i can tell what goes to the expansion card! it's the end of the world! | Jun 17 18:18 |
| MinceR | it's like i didn't want to decide what goes where | Jun 17 18:18 |
| DaemonMDV | I don't want to have to care what goes where | Jun 17 18:19 |
| DaemonMDV | and I don't | Jun 17 18:19 |
| MinceR | you can sync file systems pretty well, actually | Jun 17 18:19 |
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| MinceR | i guess you like surprises when you remove the expansion card | Jun 17 18:20 |
| MinceR | but there's windows for people who like surprises. | Jun 17 18:20 |
| DaemonMDV | operating a player in MSC mode is like saving files to your hard disk by specifying which sector of the drive each bit will go to | Jun 17 18:20 |
| DaemonMDV | :D | Jun 17 18:20 |
| MinceR | "surprise! BSOD!" | Jun 17 18:20 |
| DaemonMDV | sure you can do it | Jun 17 18:20 |
| MinceR | no, it's exactly like saving files to my hard disk, actually | Jun 17 18:20 |
| MinceR | works through a file system all the same | Jun 17 18:21 |
| schestowitz | http://www.prwatch.org/node/8417 "From March 2008 to January 2009, the U.S. Federal Deposit Insurance Corporation (FDIC) spent $7.6 million on public relations and marketing, to "instill confidence in the stability of the insured banking system" and mark the agency's 75th anniversary." | Jun 17 18:23 |
| schestowitz | Shilling for OBAMABANK | Jun 17 18:24 |
| schestowitz | http://www.linuxinsider.com/story/Trolls-and-Astroturfers-and-Shills-Oh-My-67329.html?wlc=1245260437 (Trolls and Astroturfers and Shills, Oh My!) | Jun 17 18:26 |
| schestowitz | '"I am quite certain much of the anti-GNU/Linux campaign is funded by M$ and run by professionals," blogger Robert Pogson told LinuxInsider by email, citing a Boycott Novell article for illustration. "M$ wrote the book on technological evangelism, yet the shills have the nerve to call us zealots."' | Jun 17 18:26 |
| MinceR | well, that firefox trick didn't work out | Jun 17 18:27 |
| MinceR | i'll have to try reducing the value | Jun 17 18:28 |
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| Straponz | Hello | Jun 17 18:29 |
| schestowitz | Hey | Jun 17 18:29 |
| schestowitz | NSA Ill-Suited For Domestic Cybersecurity Role < http://yro.slashdot.org/story/09/06/12/1926220/NSA-Ill-Suited-For-Domestic-Cybersecurity-Role > | Jun 17 18:30 |
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| Chewbacca | So, how bout that Mark Fink? http://opensourcetogo.blogspot.com/2009/06/when-zeal-becomes-zealotry-tawdry-tale.html | Jun 17 18:31 |
| splosion | I got told to "grow up" when I told a bunch of long-time Linux users on UF who were saying "It's not ready for the desktop" that if they really believed that, they'd uninstall it already | Jun 17 18:31 |
| splosion | Chewbacca: ewww | Jun 17 18:32 |
| Straponz | No, they'd uninstall XP already. | Jun 17 18:32 |
| Straponz | Heh. | Jun 17 18:32 |
| -BNc/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] British cops deliver Catch 22 to photographers: you're not allowed to know which areas you're not allowed to photograph < http://ping.fm ... | Jun 17 18:32 | |
| -BNc/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] Mousavi And Up to 100 Reformers Arrested. Many People Hurt In Riots By Police < http://ping.fm/buzn1 > | Jun 17 18:32 | |
| Chewbacca | I love me a good riot. | Jun 17 18:32 |
| schestowitz | Chewbacca: what about him? That blog post wrongly accuses me | Jun 17 18:33 |
| Straponz | Linux will be ready for the Desktop when 95% of the community stops dualbooting with the evil, horrible MS OS! | Jun 17 18:33 |
| Chewbacca | schestowitz: Do you have any proof as to otherwise? The emails have your PGP signature. | Jun 17 18:33 |
| Chewbacca | It almost looks like you've got some kind of personal agenda. | Jun 17 18:33 |
| Chewbacca | What about your dear friend AstralKnight, whom you've dug for over the past year, but say you don't even know him? | Jun 17 18:34 |
| Chewbacca | Your credability is slipping. | Jun 17 18:34 |
| splosion | oh lawdy | Jun 17 18:34 |
| Chewbacca | Maybe you should put yourself on the CI on your site. | Jun 17 18:34 |
| Chewbacca | And put a big fat 0 | Jun 17 18:34 |
| *magentar has quit (Remote closed the connection) | Jun 17 18:34 | |
| Chewbacca | For "NOT CREDIBLE" | Jun 17 18:34 |
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| Chewbacca | *wookie noises* | Jun 17 18:35 |
| *magentar has quit (Remote closed the connection) | Jun 17 18:35 | |
| Chewbacca | Well? | Jun 17 18:35 |
| Chewbacca | Care to speak up on anything? | Jun 17 18:36 |
| DaemonMDV | well, I tried the player in MSC mode for shits and giggles | Jun 17 18:36 |
| DaemonMDV | and it immediately loses the ability to track play order and album art | Jun 17 18:36 |
| Chewbacca | DaemonMDV: What an exciting life you must have. | Jun 17 18:37 |
| *magentar (n=magentar@94.79.152.251) has joined #boycottnovell | Jun 17 18:37 | |
| DaemonMDV | yes very exciting | Jun 17 18:37 |
| MinceR | DaemonMDV: then your player sucks | Jun 17 18:38 |
| Chewbacca | It seems Roy has run into his bedroom to cry for the time being, unable to answer my questions. | Jun 17 18:38 |
| Chewbacca | Yaaaaay. | Jun 17 18:38 |
| DaemonMDV | no, it just doesn't officially support AAC | Jun 17 18:38 |
| DaemonMDV | but can play them because MP4 audio is the same as the audio track of an MPEG-4 video | Jun 17 18:38 |
| DaemonMDV | and the Microsoft database can track play order | Jun 17 18:39 |
| Chewbacca | Neat. | Jun 17 18:39 |
| DaemonMDV | so it ends up supporting it correctly if you use MTP mode | Jun 17 18:39 |
| DaemonMDV | even though they never claimed support | Jun 17 18:39 |
| DaemonMDV | :) | Jun 17 18:39 |
| schestowitz | Chewbacca: yes, I have proof | Jun 17 18:39 |
| schestowitz | I posted | Jun 17 18:39 |
| Chewbacca | Other than self-citations? | Jun 17 18:39 |
| schestowitz | To prove have NO relationship is like the whole "proof of God" thing | Jun 17 18:39 |
| schestowitz | How do you want to me prove this? | Jun 17 18:40 |
| schestowitz | You want my E-mail box? | Jun 17 18:40 |
| DaemonMDV | I have proof Microsoft is planning to blow up Alderaan | Jun 17 18:40 |
| Chewbacca | That'd be a start. | Jun 17 18:40 |
| schestowitz | To see I never communicted with that man until David asked me to? | Jun 17 18:40 |
| DaemonMDV | I'm sure I blogged about it last week | Jun 17 18:40 |
| DaemonMDV | yes, there it is, incontrovertible | Jun 17 18:40 |
| DaemonMDV | ;) | Jun 17 18:40 |
| schestowitz | Chewbacca: you're wasting people's time with wrong accusations | Jun 17 18:40 |
| schestowitz | Everything I said stands | Jun 17 18:40 |
| splosion | christ. That desktoplinux site is insane | Jun 17 18:41 |
| Chewbacca | schestowitz: You are poisoning the community with shoddy facts that can't hold water | Jun 17 18:41 |
| DaemonMDV | even though they are a peaceful people and have no ODF | Jun 17 18:41 |
| DaemonMDV | Microsoft is making an example | Jun 17 18:41 |
| MinceR | DaemonMDV: do you have the plans for the Death Star? | Jun 17 18:41 |
| DaemonMDV | because Dantooine is far too remote | Jun 17 18:41 |
| schestowitz | Chewbacca: you're wasting people's time | Jun 17 18:41 |
| DaemonMDV | B-) | Jun 17 18:41 |
| DaemonMDV | Oh, but I do | Jun 17 18:41 |
| DaemonMDV | :P | Jun 17 18:41 |
| schestowitz | And I don't know who AstralKnight is | Jun 17 18:41 |
| schestowitz | Seems to be reading COLA | Jun 17 18:41 |
| Chewbacca | Liar. | Jun 17 18:41 |
| Chewbacca | You dugg his posts for nearly a full year on Digg. | Jun 17 18:42 |
| Chewbacca | You at least knew of him. | Jun 17 18:42 |
| schestowitz | Didn't even know about him until some troll from linsux brought it up here | Jun 17 18:42 |
| Chewbacca | I assume he's some lackey of yours. | Jun 17 18:42 |
| _Hicham_ | DaemonMDV will be encoding/decoding for the rest of his life | Jun 17 18:42 |
| schestowitz | Peoplel posted links here to his stuff | Jun 17 18:42 |
| schestowitz | trmanco did | Jun 17 18:42 |
| trmanco | what? | Jun 17 18:42 |
| schestowitz | Chewbacca: he sure follows my stuff | Jun 17 18:42 |
| DaemonMDV | What I don't get is why they didn't just blow up Yavin then the moon | Jun 17 18:42 |
| schestowitz | Cause I can see it in linkage | Jun 17 18:43 |
| DaemonMDV | instead they wait for 30 minutes even though the ting can blow up planets | Jun 17 18:43 |
| DaemonMDV | cause there was a planet blocking them | Jun 17 18:43 |
| MinceR | they're stupid space nazis ;) | Jun 17 18:43 |
| DaemonMDV | that's almost as bad as Signs | Jun 17 18:43 |
| splosion | DaemonMDV: yeah but that would have resulted in a really really cool amazing ending for that film | Jun 17 18:43 |
| DaemonMDV | where water kills them but they go through the effort to conquer a planet that's 3/4ths water | Jun 17 18:44 |
| MinceR | though i don't remember what the charging time was | Jun 17 18:44 |
| splosion | that cannot happen | Jun 17 18:44 |
| DaemonMDV | not counting rain or humidity | Jun 17 18:44 |
| DaemonMDV | I know | Jun 17 18:44 |
| DaemonMDV | George Lucas is a douche | Jun 17 18:44 |
| DaemonMDV | :P | Jun 17 18:44 |
| schestowitz | Did you know that 80% of ocean trash is plastics? < http://www.itwire.com/content/view/25728/1075/ > | Jun 17 18:44 |
| DaemonMDV | makes sense | Jun 17 18:44 |
| MinceR | if it takes more than 30 minutes for the main weapon to charge, it makes sense to wait until they get around the obstacle | Jun 17 18:44 |
| Chewbacca | Did you know that 90% of what schestowitz says is bullshit? | Jun 17 18:44 |
| DaemonMDV | light, buoyant, picked up by currents | Jun 17 18:44 |
| Chewbacca | Makes sense. | Jun 17 18:45 |
| splosion | schestowitz: there are islands of plastics in the pacific. SOme of them are several metres deep. Just plastic | Jun 17 18:45 |
| DaemonMDV | are you sure that 80% of ocean refuse is not Pamela Anderson? | Jun 17 18:45 |
| MinceR | anyway, i prefer that ship in Star Wreck: The Pirkinning | Jun 17 18:45 |
| *Chewbacca has quit ("http://www.mibbit.com ajax IRC Client") | Jun 17 18:45 | |
| schestowitz | There's some of them circling | Jun 17 18:45 |
| schestowitz | But the press hardly pays attention to it | Jun 17 18:45 |
| MinceR | the one that completely shut down after firing, spent some minutes in dark and then the lights came on and the computers started booting :> | Jun 17 18:45 |
| schestowitz | Let's look at some leeeenucks news | Jun 17 18:46 |
| schestowitz | Ewww... | Jun 17 18:47 |
| schestowitz | IBM..., disgusting. | Jun 17 18:47 |
| schestowitz | http://www.sutor.com/newsite/blog-open/?p=3690 "Together with Al Gillen from IDC, I’ll be hosting a webcast on Wednesday, June 17, at Noon ET called “Lower your TCO with Linux.” It will be an overview of Linux solutions to help optimize the total cost of ownership (TCO) and improve energy efficiency." | Jun 17 18:47 |
| schestowitz | They are paying shills and propaganda | Jun 17 18:47 |
| schestowitz | And appearing with them | Jun 17 18:47 |
| schestowitz | The orgy of liars with shills like Gillen... | Jun 17 18:47 |
| schestowitz | They have a content over who bribes him more | Jun 17 18:47 |
| DaemonMDV | apparently it doesn't support playlisting at all in MSC mode | Jun 17 18:48 |
| schestowitz | And the shill-nalysts must be floating in cash. Pay to say, pay to say... | Jun 17 18:48 |
| DaemonMDV | you HAVE to use MTP | Jun 17 18:48 |
| DaemonMDV | on the bright side, it doesn't crash Banshee :D | Jun 17 18:48 |
| schestowitz | XO Laptops are Banned in OLPC Ethiopia Classrooms http://www.olpcnews.com/countries/ethiopia/xo_laptop_banned_from_class.html | Jun 17 18:49 |
| MinceR | DaemonMDV: like i said, your player sucks | Jun 17 18:49 |
| DaemonMDV | I'll figure this out | Jun 17 18:50 |
| DaemonMDV | I know! | Jun 17 18:50 |
| schestowitz | What's the obsession with codecs? | Jun 17 18:50 |
| schestowitz | Could there be ANYTHING more boring to talk about? | Jun 17 18:50 |
| DaemonMDV | put the numerical sequence in the tag! | Jun 17 18:50 |
| _Hicham_ | schestowitz : what do u think of openSUSE build service ? | Jun 17 18:50 |
| schestowitz | Bauds and compresion... | Jun 17 18:50 |
| schestowitz | _Hicham_: it's good. | Jun 17 18:50 |
| schestowitz | LF adopts it too | Jun 17 18:50 |
| _Hicham_ | LF? | Jun 17 18:50 |
| DaemonMDV | I'm still partial to Ubuntu PPA's | Jun 17 18:51 |
| DaemonMDV | those are easy | Jun 17 18:51 |
| DaemonMDV | you can't screw it up | Jun 17 18:51 |
| *Straponz has quit ("http://www.mibbit.com ajax IRC Client") | Jun 17 18:51 | |
| _Hicham_ | do u know what is openSUSE build service at least? | Jun 17 18:51 |
| schestowitz | _Hicham_: LF=kernel foundation | Jun 17 18:52 |
| DaemonMDV | if the distro decides to be packaging Nazis, someone will build it anyway | Jun 17 18:52 |
| DaemonMDV | yes, I love it | Jun 17 18:52 |
| -BNc/#boycottnovell-[trmanco] listening to "TreblesTrebles (House Music) - Benny benassi vs. MBrothers" ♫ http://blip.fm/~8e888 | Jun 17 18:52 | |
| trmanco | hehehe | Jun 17 18:53 |
| _Hicham_ | are u packageable DaemonMDV? | Jun 17 18:53 |
| schestowitz | hey, _Hicham_ , the Python comes to dine. http://www.linux-mag.com/cache/7370/1.html | Jun 17 18:53 |
| DaemonMDV | yes, but I have a lot of broken dependencies, architecture conflicts, and "package is referred to by others but is not in the repository" hangups | Jun 17 18:54 |
| DaemonMDV | but after spending 12 hours getting me ready, it feels like you've accomplished something til I segfault and eat yur babies | Jun 17 18:54 |
| DaemonMDV | *your | Jun 17 18:55 |
| DaemonMDV | :) | Jun 17 18:55 |
| _Hicham_ | how do u compare urpmi to yum? | Jun 17 18:56 |
| -BNc/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] Why is Google even asking questions about codecs? http://ping.fm/KBv1J Ogg, of course. | Jun 17 18:57 | |
| -BNc/#boycottnovell-[trmanco] listening to "Show Me Love (House 2008) - Michael Mind" ♫ http://blip.fm/~8e8jb | Jun 17 18:57 | |
| DaemonMDV | easier to use, hits less snags | Jun 17 18:57 |
| DaemonMDV | has proper orphaned RPM removal | Jun 17 18:57 |
| DaemonMDV | :) | Jun 17 18:57 |
| *PetoKraus has quit (Success) | Jun 17 18:59 | |
| _Hicham_ | and did u test packagekit on MDV? | Jun 17 18:59 |
| DaemonMDV | no | Jun 17 18:59 |
| DaemonMDV | and frankly I don't want it | Jun 17 18:59 |
| DaemonMDV | I am unlikely to ever want it | Jun 17 19:00 |
| DaemonMDV | it does not work well on any distro with any backend | Jun 17 19:00 |
| DaemonMDV | nor is it uniformly implemented | Jun 17 19:00 |
| _Hicham_ | it doesn't work even on fedora? | Jun 17 19:00 |
| DaemonMDV | not all that well, remember, it has yum as a backend | Jun 17 19:01 |
| DaemonMDV | so you'll have to pull out kill -9 and fix the database every time it takes a shit | Jun 17 19:01 |
| DaemonMDV | Fedora has done a lot of things well but packaging has never really been all that great with them | Jun 17 19:01 |
| _Hicham_ | but for me, packagekit was faster than the add/remove software shipped with MDV | Jun 17 19:02 |
| -BNc/#boycottnovell-[trmanco] listening to "Show Me Love (Out NOW) - Steve Angello & Laidback Luke Ft Robin S" ♫ http://blip.fm/~8e8oo | Jun 17 19:02 | |
| _Hicham_ | from my own experience | Jun 17 19:02 |
| DaemonMDV | when it comes back up after you kill -9 it it will complain that something has a lock on RPM | Jun 17 19:02 |
| DaemonMDV | and you have to wait for it to figure out it's hallucinating | Jun 17 19:02 |
| DaemonMDV | and give you back control | Jun 17 19:02 |
| _Hicham_ | clear the rpm db lock | Jun 17 19:02 |
| _Hicham_ | it is as simple as that | Jun 17 19:03 |
| DaemonMDV | that's the part that finally killed me on Fedora | Jun 17 19:03 |
| _Hicham_ | apt also has this problem | Jun 17 19:03 |
| DaemonMDV | Yum falls over dead far too often | Jun 17 19:03 |
| _Hicham_ | from the commandline? | Jun 17 19:03 |
| _Hicham_ | yum works perfectly from the commandline | Jun 17 19:03 |
| _Hicham_ | never had a problem with it | Jun 17 19:03 |
| DaemonMDV | it tends to work better there | Jun 17 19:03 |
| _Hicham_ | except for test updates | Jun 17 19:03 |
| DaemonMDV | but I just generally don't like Yum | Jun 17 19:03 |
| schestowitz | Hm..... check out the comments here: http://blog.internetnews.com/skerner/2009/06/fedora-is-concerned-about-mono.html | Jun 17 19:03 |
| DaemonMDV | there's better ways to do things | Jun 17 19:04 |
| schestowitz | Also one from oiaohm | Jun 17 19:04 |
| _Hicham_ | what do u like the most ? Zypper? | Jun 17 19:04 |
| DaemonMDV | they should use SmartPM | Jun 17 19:04 |
| _Hicham_ | I never used SmartPM | Jun 17 19:04 |
| DaemonMDV | it uses its own database | Jun 17 19:05 |
| _Hicham_ | what are its advantages? | Jun 17 19:05 |
| DaemonMDV | I'm not exactly for sure on how it keeps Yum up to date, but they both work side by side | Jun 17 19:05 |
| DaemonMDV | and Smart doesn't lock up constantly | Jun 17 19:05 |
| DaemonMDV | and is much faster | Jun 17 19:05 |
| DaemonMDV | it also understands Debian packages | Jun 17 19:06 |
| DaemonMDV | doesn't mean it's a great idea to install them | Jun 17 19:06 |
| DaemonMDV | but you can | Jun 17 19:06 |
| _Hicham_ | so it runs a mixed db? | Jun 17 19:06 |
| DaemonMDV | yes | Jun 17 19:06 |
| DaemonMDV | you can also use it to install RPMs in Ubuntu | Jun 17 19:06 |
| DaemonMDV | again, not a great idea | Jun 17 19:06 |
| schestowitz | MOG: "Why Novell Kisses Microsoft’s Ring Every So Often" | Jun 17 19:07 |
| DaemonMDV | if you have an RPM that Alien can't convert that doesn't have a lot of dependencies, it may work if you install it in SMART | Jun 17 19:07 |
| DaemonMDV | but then again, it may not | Jun 17 19:07 |
| _Hicham_ | rpm is available in Ubuntu | Jun 17 19:07 |
| DaemonMDV | I'm a bigger fan of just bypassing the distributions package manager totally | Jun 17 19:07 |
| _Hicham_ | why? | Jun 17 19:08 |
| DaemonMDV | AutoPackage tends to work no matter what distro you use | Jun 17 19:08 |
| _Hicham_ | to have segfaults? | Jun 17 19:08 |
| DaemonMDV | no | Jun 17 19:08 |
| DaemonMDV | AutoPackage is pretty reliable | Jun 17 19:08 |
| DaemonMDV | as reliable as trying to make a package for every Linux distro gets I suppose | Jun 17 19:08 |
| _Hicham_ | no | Jun 17 19:08 |
| _Hicham_ | it is not | Jun 17 19:09 |
| _Hicham_ | it will never succeed | Jun 17 19:09 |
| DaemonMDV | since distros are not really even compatible with other Linux distros unless you statically link everything | Jun 17 19:09 |
| _Hicham_ | Linux doesn't have a stable ABI | Jun 17 19:09 |
| _Hicham_ | so there won't be a magical solution | Jun 17 19:09 |
| _Hicham_ | unless there is one thing | Jun 17 19:09 |
| DaemonMDV | Ubuntu is LSB compliant | Jun 17 19:09 |
| _Hicham_ | ur LSB compliant if u have lsb packages | Jun 17 19:10 |
| DaemonMDV | no you aren't | Jun 17 19:10 |
| DaemonMDV | you can't claim compliance unless you pass their test suite | Jun 17 19:10 |
| _Hicham_ | I know | Jun 17 19:10 |
| DaemonMDV | the packages don't mean anything by themselves | Jun 17 19:10 |
| _Hicham_ | what we need is a unified naming convention | Jun 17 19:10 |
| DaemonMDV | Ubuntu has their releases LSB certified | Jun 17 19:11 |
| DaemonMDV | which sounds nice anyway | Jun 17 19:11 |
| DaemonMDV | :D | Jun 17 19:11 |
| _Hicham_ | if there is a unified naming convention shared between all distros, a lot of compatibility problems will disappear | Jun 17 19:11 |
| DaemonMDV | Ubuntu has a hell of a time with my MP3 player | Jun 17 19:11 |
| _Hicham_ | and we can look into binary compatibility then | Jun 17 19:11 |
| DaemonMDV | it keeps hammering on it trying to mount it | Jun 17 19:12 |
| *PetoKraus (n=pk@fsf/member/petokraus) has joined #boycottnovell | Jun 17 19:12 | |
| DaemonMDV | and that confuses the player to switch modes trying to be compatible with the OS probing it | Jun 17 19:12 |
| _Hicham_ | ur Salsa Player? | Jun 17 19:12 |
| DaemonMDV | so they chase each other around til they randomly both happen to try the same handshake | Jun 17 19:12 |
| DaemonMDV | yes | Jun 17 19:12 |
| DaemonMDV | by this time Ubuntu has put three different device icons on my desktop | Jun 17 19:12 |
| _Hicham_ | did u check that it doesn't support ogg completely? | Jun 17 19:13 |
| DaemonMDV | I can't unmount the incorrect ones | Jun 17 19:13 |
| _Hicham_ | Ubuntu Jaunty? | Jun 17 19:13 |
| DaemonMDV | yes | Jun 17 19:13 |
| DaemonMDV | it tells me the device isn't there | Jun 17 19:13 |
| DaemonMDV | (no shit!) | Jun 17 19:13 |
| DaemonMDV | and the device may be in MTP, PTP, or MSC mode | Jun 17 19:13 |
| _Hicham_ | it is an old problem | Jun 17 19:13 |
| DaemonMDV | :D | Jun 17 19:13 |
| DaemonMDV | which means that statistically 1 out of three of my files will be invisible | Jun 17 19:13 |
| _Hicham_ | hope that DeviceKit will fix that over time | Jun 17 19:13 |
| DaemonMDV | depending on how Ubuntu mounts it | Jun 17 19:13 |
| DaemonMDV | Mandriva doesn't fuck it over that royally | Jun 17 19:14 |
| DaemonMDV | does Ubuntu have mtpfs by default? | Jun 17 19:14 |
| _Hicham_ | Mandriva has a newer kernel | Jun 17 19:14 |
| _Hicham_ | maybe that is why | Jun 17 19:14 |
| DaemonMDV | gah, I was so disgusted I didn't even check | Jun 17 19:14 |
| DaemonMDV | no, Mandriva can't see it, at least as a file system | Jun 17 19:15 |
| DaemonMDV | if I install mtpfs, it starts wigging out like Ubuntu | Jun 17 19:15 |
| _Hicham_ | Ubuntu will use DeviceKit in Karmic | Jun 17 19:15 |
| DaemonMDV | Rhythmbox can see it without MTPFS, so I'd jsut assume not go through the circus with Nautilus trying to mount it randomly | Jun 17 19:15 |
| DaemonMDV | as for MP4 support, I just gave up and decided to keep using Foobar 2000 and Nero through Wine | Jun 17 19:16 |
| DaemonMDV | it works | Jun 17 19:16 |
| _Hicham_ | I am downloading openSUSE 11.2 Development | Jun 17 19:17 |
| DaemonMDV | it actually transcodes faster in Wine than on Vista | Jun 17 19:17 |
| _Hicham_ | i ve seen its features | Jun 17 19:17 |
| -BNc/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] Novell to buy back $121.6M of debt < http://ping.fm/aubfP >. Now it gets ugly. | Jun 17 19:17 | |
| _Hicham_ | it is shipping a lot of new stuff | Jun 17 19:17 |
| _Hicham_ | bleeding edge stuff | Jun 17 19:17 |
| _Hicham_ | I don't know why Ubuntu is still using gdm 2.20 | Jun 17 19:17 |
| _Hicham_ | and gnome-power-manager-2.24 | Jun 17 19:18 |
| _Hicham_ | why this mixture in gnome? | Jun 17 19:18 |
| DaemonMDV | I'll probably try out Karmic around Alpha 4-5 | Jun 17 19:18 |
| DaemonMDV | it's usually settles down by then | Jun 17 19:18 |
| DaemonMDV | at least the major crap is usually gone | Jun 17 19:18 |
| _Hicham_ | Karmic doesn't seen to be that important | Jun 17 19:18 |
| DaemonMDV | by Alpha 3 they usually like to have feature freeze on major stuff | Jun 17 19:18 |
| DaemonMDV | it's usually safe by 4 or 5 | Jun 17 19:19 |
| _Hicham_ | as always, they are doing copy->paste | Jun 17 19:19 |
| schestowitz | Does anyone here understand accounting well? | Jun 17 19:19 |
| DaemonMDV | yes, their blueprints seem rather unambitious | Jun 17 19:19 |
| DaemonMDV | even for Ubuntu | Jun 17 19:19 |
| schestowitz | We need interpretation of this: http://news.prnewswire.com/DisplayReleaseContent.aspx?ACCT=104&STORY=/www/story/06-15-2009/0005043687&EDATE= | Jun 17 19:19 |
| _Hicham_ | DaemonMDV has a Master in Accounting schestowitz | Jun 17 19:19 |
| DaemonMDV | it's mostly jsut routine plumbing upgrades | Jun 17 19:19 |
| DaemonMDV | new GNOME, GRUB, kernel........ | Jun 17 19:20 |
| schestowitz | _Hicham_: like a masters inn box-booting | Jun 17 19:20 |
| DaemonMDV | some random stupid novelty thrown in to make it have that new car smell | Jun 17 19:20 |
| DaemonMDV | (notifications) | Jun 17 19:20 |
| _Hicham_ | they take patches from other people | Jun 17 19:20 |
| schestowitz | Serious though, if anyone can take a look (maybe you _Hicham_ ) and offer a view, that would be grand | Jun 17 19:20 |
| schestowitz | I know what it means, but I want to be sure | Jun 17 19:20 |
| DaemonMDV | Ubuntu just really isn't all that creative or clever | Jun 17 19:20 |
| schestowitz | Novell follows MFT's footsteps | Jun 17 19:21 |
| schestowitz | Selling debt | Jun 17 19:21 |
| schestowitz | *MSFT | Jun 17 19:21 |
| DaemonMDV | their kernel git is mainly to use as a staging area for backported patches from the main kernel | Jun 17 19:21 |
| DaemonMDV | I actually saw like 5 or 6 patches go into 2.6.29 from Ubuntu and couldn't believe there were so many | Jun 17 19:21 |
| _Hicham_ | don't remind of their kernels | Jun 17 19:21 |
| DaemonMDV | that's out of several thousand | Jun 17 19:21 |
| _Hicham_ | they are adding more overheads to kernel devs | Jun 17 19:22 |
| DaemonMDV | :) | Jun 17 19:22 |
| _Hicham_ | most of their patches cause problems more than fixes | Jun 17 19:22 |
| DaemonMDV | every kernel they throw in literally 2-3 patches into mainline | Jun 17 19:22 |
| DaemonMDV | they're never to fix a major issue either | Jun 17 19:22 |
| DaemonMDV | usually something trivial that Novell or Red Hat would have fixed at some point no doubt | Jun 17 19:23 |
| DaemonMDV | yes, building your own kernel on Ubuntu will net you a huge reliability boost | Jun 17 19:23 |
| DaemonMDV | but why are you building kernels? | Jun 17 19:23 |
| DaemonMDV | your distro should do that | Jun 17 19:23 |
| DaemonMDV | that's why it's a distro and you're a user | Jun 17 19:23 |
| schestowitz | http://blogs.zdnet.com/open-source/?p=4356 "It’s a delicate dance, especially at times like this when growth capital is so scarce. Time will tell whether Vyatta tilts toward, say, Xen in helping craft customer solutions. Or whether it starts pushing Novell’s Suse Linux over, say, Red Hat. ‘" | Jun 17 19:24 |
| _Hicham_ | yes, ur distro should do that | Jun 17 19:24 |
| _Hicham_ | plus, I don't like building big programs | Jun 17 19:24 |
| DaemonMDV | I hate doing it | Jun 17 19:24 |
| _Hicham_ | that is why i like OpenSUSE build service | Jun 17 19:24 |
| DaemonMDV | it takes me 2 hours on a 2.33 Ghz Core 2 Duo | Jun 17 19:24 |
| DaemonMDV | and then by the time I build it, they have another one ready to go | Jun 17 19:24 |
| _Hicham_ | 2 hours to build what? | Jun 17 19:24 |
| DaemonMDV | there's just no keeping up with mainline | Jun 17 19:24 |
| DaemonMDV | a kernel | Jun 17 19:24 |
| DaemonMDV | takes about 1.5-2 hours | Jun 17 19:25 |
| DaemonMDV | depending on what else I'm doing | Jun 17 19:25 |
| _Hicham_ | a kernel build in 2 hours? | Jun 17 19:25 |
| _Hicham_ | that is great | Jun 17 19:25 |
| DaemonMDV | I can do it in an hour | Jun 17 19:25 |
| DaemonMDV | if I use the scripts that check your hardware | Jun 17 19:25 |
| DaemonMDV | and strip everything out of the .config | Jun 17 19:25 |
| _Hicham_ | by stripping it down, yes | Jun 17 19:25 |
| _Hicham_ | Firefox takes more than that to build | Jun 17 19:26 |
| DaemonMDV | but if I build one off basically the same Ubuntu config about 1.5-2 hours | Jun 17 19:26 |
| MinceR | finally you can reduce the size of your initrd by 2 megabytes! | Jun 17 19:26 |
| DaemonMDV | yeah, but you don't want to | Jun 17 19:26 |
| DaemonMDV | it slows the boot down a little | Jun 17 19:26 |
| MinceR | also, you get to rebuild stuff if you install new hardware! | Jun 17 19:26 |
| _Hicham_ | OpenOffice is worse at building | Jun 17 19:26 |
| DaemonMDV | I'd rather use the 2 megs | Jun 17 19:26 |
| DaemonMDV | but I don't really need an initrd | Jun 17 19:27 |
| _Hicham_ | I hate building big software | Jun 17 19:27 |
| DaemonMDV | building the file system drivers into the kernel helps | Jun 17 19:27 |
| _Hicham_ | thanks to god, gcc is having precompiled headers support since version 4 | Jun 17 19:27 |
| DaemonMDV | Ubuntu builds XFS as a module so if you use XFS, you can pick up another 1-2 seconds by building it into your image | Jun 17 19:27 |
| MinceR | sure, 1-2 seconds | Jun 17 19:28 |
| MinceR | what are you running, a 386? | Jun 17 19:28 |
| DaemonMDV | I've riced up a kernel before and got Ubuntu to boot in 18 seconds | Jun 17 19:28 |
| DaemonMDV | hehe | Jun 17 19:28 |
| _Hicham_ | 18 seconds? | Jun 17 19:28 |
| DaemonMDV | it boots in about 24 seconds on its own kernel | Jun 17 19:28 |
| DaemonMDV | yeah, removing the AppArmor hook gains you another bit of a second | Jun 17 19:29 |
| DaemonMDV | :D | Jun 17 19:29 |
| _Hicham_ | what out Fedora 11 boot up speed for u DaemonMDV? | Jun 17 19:29 |
| DaemonMDV | there's a whole bunch of little things you can do that add up | Jun 17 19:29 |
| DaemonMDV | didn't time it | Jun 17 19:29 |
| DaemonMDV | I know my system boots faster than Eric Sandeen's | Jun 17 19:29 |
| DaemonMDV | lol | Jun 17 19:29 |
| DaemonMDV | I don't know what he's done but his was like 43 seconds | Jun 17 19:30 |
| DaemonMDV | and Fedora 10 booted in 22 seconds for me | Jun 17 19:30 |
| _Hicham_ | u removed default services then | Jun 17 19:31 |
| DaemonMDV | nope | Jun 17 19:31 |
| _Hicham_ | was it from default install? | Jun 17 19:31 |
| DaemonMDV | yes | Jun 17 19:31 |
| DaemonMDV | I don't build kernels for Fedora | Jun 17 19:31 |
| DaemonMDV | RPM is a bitch | Jun 17 19:31 |
| DaemonMDV | and the old fashioned way is messy | Jun 17 19:31 |
| DaemonMDV | make-kpkg is possibly the best thing ever | Jun 17 19:32 |
| DaemonMDV | (Debian/Ubuntu) | Jun 17 19:32 |
| _Hicham_ | rpm is a bitch? | Jun 17 19:32 |
| DaemonMDV | yes | Jun 17 19:32 |
| _Hicham_ | why? | Jun 17 19:32 |
| _Hicham_ | it is simple to build rpms | Jun 17 19:32 |
| DaemonMDV | making a Debian package is more straightforward | Jun 17 19:32 |
| DaemonMDV | especially with checkinstall | Jun 17 19:32 |
| DaemonMDV | dead simple | Jun 17 19:32 |
| DaemonMDV | don't need to worry about crap like making an rpmbuild for yourself | Jun 17 19:33 |
| _Hicham_ | a spec file? | Jun 17 19:33 |
| _Hicham_ | u r whining about writing a small spec file? | Jun 17 19:33 |
| DaemonMDV | RPM is why I'm naughty and just use make install | Jun 17 19:33 |
| DaemonMDV | yeah, I'm actually a lazy bastard | Jun 17 19:34 |
| _Hicham_ | u r really dumb | Jun 17 19:34 |
| _Hicham_ | u don't even have to write the spec files | Jun 17 19:34 |
| MinceR | checkinstall fails | Jun 17 19:34 |
| _Hicham_ | as they already exist in the reps | Jun 17 19:34 |
| DaemonMDV | checkinstall is wicked | Jun 17 19:34 |
| _Hicham_ | u take the spec file | Jun 17 19:34 |
| DaemonMDV | it plays with you | Jun 17 19:34 |
| _Hicham_ | and the original tarball | Jun 17 19:35 |
| DaemonMDV | makes you think it is going to spit out an RPM | Jun 17 19:35 |
| MinceR | no, it simply fails to work most of the time | Jun 17 19:35 |
| _Hicham_ | and rpmbuild -ba xxx.spec | Jun 17 19:35 |
| _Hicham_ | and that is it | Jun 17 19:35 |
| _Hicham_ | it is very simple | Jun 17 19:35 |
| _Hicham_ | checkinstall is not recommended | Jun 17 19:36 |
| _Hicham_ | it is not proper packaging | Jun 17 19:36 |
| _Hicham_ | u have to build a deb package the right way | Jun 17 19:36 |
| _Hicham_ | by providing at least a control file | Jun 17 19:36 |
| _Hicham_ | if it is from source, u have to give a rules file | Jun 17 19:37 |
| _Hicham_ | same for rpm | Jun 17 19:37 |
| _Hicham_ | but rpm have all of that in a spec file | Jun 17 19:37 |
| _Hicham_ | and it is damn easy to write spec files | Jun 17 19:37 |
| _Hicham_ | DaemonMDV.spec | Jun 17 19:38 |
| _Hicham_ | Name : DaemonMDV | Jun 17 19:38 |
| _Hicham_ | version : no_version_at_all | Jun 17 19:38 |
| _Hicham_ | release : never_released | Jun 17 19:39 |
| _Hicham_ | DaemonMDV : do u have a bachelor is CS? | Jun 17 19:39 |
| _Hicham_ | *in | Jun 17 19:39 |
| DaemonMDV | no :P | Jun 17 19:40 |
| DaemonMDV | I did take some Microsoft classes and stayed in a Holiday Inn Express one time :P | Jun 17 19:40 |
| DaemonMDV | nyaaaah | Jun 17 19:40 |
| _Hicham_ | Microsoft Classes? | Jun 17 19:44 |
| _Hicham_ | in VB? | Jun 17 19:44 |
| schestowitz | Iran elections: protesters killed as uprising turns bloody http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2009/jun/16/iran-election-protests-killed | Jun 17 19:47 |
| *PetoKraus has quit (Connection timed out) | Jun 17 19:50 | |
| schestowitz | Peru says it may revoke laws after Amazon clashes < http://www.reuters.com/article/rbssIndustryMaterialsUtilitiesNews/idUSN1544620520090615 > | Jun 17 19:51 |
| schestowitz | _Hicham_: did you have a chance to look at that URL? | Jun 17 19:51 |
| -BNc/#boycottnovell-[davidgerard] fucking hell. pollen count is only 6 today. just snorted steroids. not quite at the snorting tabasco stage. but getting there. | Jun 17 19:52 | |
| _Hicham_ | about novell accounting? | Jun 17 19:52 |
| -BNc/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] This is a very disturbing video about (mis)use of tasers by British police < http://ping.fm/So9VL > | Jun 17 19:57 | |
| schestowitz | The GNOME/Mono trolls are at it today | Jun 17 19:57 |
| schestowitz | ALL efforts to try and discredit BN | Jun 17 19:57 |
| schestowitz | Remember the Debian developer who comes here? | Jun 17 19:58 |
| schestowitz | He pretends not to know it's publicly logged | Jun 17 19:58 |
| schestowitz | He knows | Jun 17 19:58 |
| schestowitz | He's baiting for angry response | Jun 17 19:58 |
| schestowitz | He's trying to provoke us | Jun 17 19:58 |
| _Hicham_ | a debian developer supporting mono? | Jun 17 19:58 |
| schestowitz | And then pull another "Fink"-like smaear against us | Jun 17 19:58 |
| schestowitz | Just ignore him next time | Jun 17 19:58 |
| schestowitz | _Hicham_: yes | Jun 17 19:58 |
| schestowitz | And others | Jun 17 19:58 |
| schestowitz | Mono is a mess | Jun 17 19:58 |
| schestowitz | Miguel knows it | Jun 17 19:58 |
| schestowitz | Lots of fog over it right now | Jun 17 19:58 |
| DaemonMDV | well, my system has been faster since I killed off Beagle | Jun 17 19:59 |
| schestowitz | So their best shot is to attack our credibility | Jun 17 19:59 |
| DaemonMDV | it kept trying to index my working directories | Jun 17 19:59 |
| schestowitz | Groklaw has SCO and MS do the same to them | Jun 17 19:59 |
| DaemonMDV | :P | Jun 17 19:59 |
| _Hicham_ | schestowitz : Mono is moving at a fast pace | Jun 17 19:59 |
| _Hicham_ | but it doesn't implement .NET 3 yet | Jun 17 19:59 |
| _Hicham_ | so, it is not that useful | Jun 17 20:00 |
| schestowitz | Who should use alpha-status Chromium on Linux? http://envb.sapphirewillow.com/writings/2009/06/who-should-use-alpha-status-chromium-on-linux/ | Jun 17 20:00 |
| _Hicham_ | plus, I don't understand the portage of Mono to Windows | Jun 17 20:00 |
| _Hicham_ | what is it for? | Jun 17 20:00 |
| schestowitz | To connect it with .NET | Jun 17 20:00 |
| _Hicham_ | worse, they are integrating it into visual studio | Jun 17 20:00 |
| schestowitz | To give it more value with VS and Windows | Jun 17 20:00 |
| schestowitz | Mono is an abomination | Jun 17 20:00 |
| _Hicham_ | connect Mono with .Net | Jun 17 20:00 |
| schestowitz | Even Miguel starts to realise this, I think | Jun 17 20:01 |
| schestowitz | I heard somewhere that he's getting exhausted | Jun 17 20:01 |
| schestowitz | But I don't know if it's true | Jun 17 20:01 |
| _Hicham_ | he is getting exhaused for sure | Jun 17 20:01 |
| schestowitz | He knows the community is mostly against him because of MonoMicrosoft.NETOOXML | Jun 17 20:01 |
| schestowitz | And he reads BN daily | Jun 17 20:01 |
| _Hicham_ | how do u know that he reads BN? | Jun 17 20:01 |
| -BNc/#boycottnovell-[davidgerard] Please place all webmonkies who think trusted clients work in protective straightjacket custody: http://blog.basieproject.org/?p=801 | Jun 17 20:02 | |
| schestowitz | _Hicham_: his IP | Jun 17 20:02 |
| _Hicham_ | schestowitz : were u using SUSE before 2006? | Jun 17 20:02 |
| schestowitz | Yes | Jun 17 20:03 |
| schestowitz | It was all part of the plot to give BN credibility ;-) (joke) | Jun 17 20:03 |
| _Hicham_ | and u weren't against Mono until the deal took place? | Jun 17 20:03 |
| schestowitz | MS bloggers have become useless | Jun 17 20:04 |
| schestowitz | They used to sometimes criticise MS | Jun 17 20:04 |
| schestowitz | Not that they see the company collapse they refrain from criticism | Jun 17 20:04 |
| schestowitz | They are all bl00dy PR agents | Jun 17 20:04 |
| _Hicham_ | MS is widely criticised | Jun 17 20:04 |
| schestowitz | _Hicham_: I first heard of Mono around 2004 | Jun 17 20:04 |
| schestowitz | Simon Ward told me | Jun 17 20:04 |
| schestowitz | Let me see if I can finf it | Jun 17 20:04 |
| schestowitz | *find | Jun 17 20:04 |
| _Hicham_ | schestowitz : and what was ur reaction back then? | Jun 17 20:04 |
| *tacone (n=Adium@151.83.39.89) has joined #boycottnovell | Jun 17 20:05 | |
| schestowitz | Here: | Jun 17 20:05 |
| schestowitz | Firefox 3.5, RC1, Slated for Friday--Many New Features | Jun 17 20:05 |
| _Hicham_ | wb Senor tacone | Jun 17 20:05 |
| schestowitz | Read the comment | Jun 17 20:05 |
| schestowitz | _Hicham_: Senor tacone was on Texas radio ;-) | Jun 17 20:05 |
| _Hicham_ | really? | Jun 17 20:06 |
| schestowitz | _Hicham_: no reaction | Jun 17 20:06 |
| _Hicham_ | schestowitz : u didn't object to it then? | Jun 17 20:06 |
| schestowitz | I didn't know enough about it | Jun 17 20:06 |
| schestowitz | It wasn't even in Ubuntu yet | Jun 17 20:06 |
| schestowitz | Let alone SUSE | Jun 17 20:06 |
| schestowitz | S.u.S.E | Jun 17 20:06 |
| schestowitz | SUSE was mostly a KDE 3.x distro | Jun 17 20:07 |
| schestowitz | I used 3.1 | Jun 17 20:07 |
| -BNc/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] Firefox 3.5, RC1, Slated for Friday--Many New Features http://ping.fm/Nhf0G | Jun 17 20:07 | |
| tacone | hello | Jun 17 20:07 |
| DaemonMDV | http://img395.imageshack.us/img395/8283/screenshotm.png | Jun 17 20:09 |
| DaemonMDV | Weird Al B-) | Jun 17 20:09 |
| DaemonMDV | Don't want to be a Canadian idiot Dont want to be some beer swillin' hockey nut and do I look like some frost bitten hosehead I never learned my alphabet from "A" to "Zed" | Jun 17 20:10 |
| DaemonMDV | :P | Jun 17 20:10 |
| tacone | my alphabet goes from A to L and from N to Z | Jun 17 20:13 |
| schestowitz | Take aids, give cancer http://edition.cnn.com/2009/TECH/science/06/16/cellphones.health.disease/index.html | Jun 17 20:14 |
| tacone | uh... | Jun 17 20:14 |
| schestowitz | DaemonMDV: too bright | Jun 17 20:15 |
| tacone | some people have @internet.com email alias. I want it too ! | Jun 17 20:15 |
| DaemonMDV | schestowitz: Weird Al is awesome :) | Jun 17 20:16 |
| *DaemonMDV has every Weird Al CD | Jun 17 20:16 | |
| schestowitz | Roy's MDV: http://s3.amazonaws.com/twitter_production/profile_background_images/6776094/screenshot-2008.jpg | Jun 17 20:17 |
| schestowitz | Weird Al challenges the MAFIAA | Jun 17 20:17 |
| schestowitz | Good to support him | Jun 17 20:17 |
| DaemonMDV | I've always liked Weird Al | Jun 17 20:18 |
| schestowitz | I heard of him like 12 years ago | Jun 17 20:19 |
| schestowitz | Always at the bottom of playlists online | Jun 17 20:19 |
| schestowitz | W | Jun 17 20:19 |
| DaemonMDV | Amish Paradise is still my favorite | Jun 17 20:19 |
| DaemonMDV | the Amish still refer to us as "The English" | Jun 17 20:20 |
| DaemonMDV | they're bizarre | Jun 17 20:20 |
| DaemonMDV | we have quite a few of them near here | Jun 17 20:20 |
| schestowitz | LinuxToday annoyed at Monobian: http://linuxtoday.com/news_story.php3?ltsn=2009-06-16-031-35-NW-DB-GN | Jun 17 20:20 |
| DaemonMDV | they can't buy deodorant | Jun 17 20:20 |
| DaemonMDV | so they go into Walmart and use some | Jun 17 20:20 |
| DaemonMDV | then put it back on the shelf | Jun 17 20:20 |
| DaemonMDV | :) | Jun 17 20:21 |
| schestowitz | The blob|rower gets new featiures: http://blog.dr-ivan.com/2009/06/16/first-impression-opera-unite/ | Jun 17 20:22 |
| -BNc/#boycottnovell-[astralknight] Linux robot car targets autonomous navigation: http://digg.com/d1u6l0?t | Jun 17 20:22 | |
| -BNc/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] Carla provoked a lots of responses by leaving Ubuntu: http://ping.fm/NXDyF | Jun 17 20:22 | |
| DaemonMDV | Don't Download This Song is 2nd | Jun 17 20:22 |
| DaemonMDV | on my favorites | Jun 17 20:22 |
| MinceR | it's a good song | Jun 17 20:24 |
| schestowitz | Funny comments here: http://linuxtoday.com/news_story.php3?ltsn=2009-06-17-006-35-OS-MS | Jun 17 20:24 |
| schestowitz | http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_zZFOQ0hs6E | Jun 17 20:26 |
| DaemonMDV | hmmm | Jun 17 20:28 |
| DaemonMDV | AAC has no trouble handling 5.1 surround sound either | Jun 17 20:28 |
| DaemonMDV | impressive | Jun 17 20:28 |
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| DaemonMDV | (MP3 can't in MPEG-1 Layer 3 mode) | Jun 17 20:29 |
| *schestowitz sighs at discussions about compression | Jun 17 20:36 | |
| *DaemonMDV is clearly fascinated by it | Jun 17 20:42 | |
| -BNc/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] Coming home to Puppy Linux < http://ping.fm/hTp0p > Going strong even without Barry... | Jun 17 20:42 | |
| -BNc/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] Belgium Makes Election Software Open to the Public < http://ping.fm/R1lFa >. This should be trivial. What's next? Bonnets welded shut? | Jun 17 20:42 | |
| DaemonMDV | btw _Hicham_, every time I copy a Vorbis over to the player it deletes it immediately | Jun 17 20:42 |
| DaemonMDV | with no warning | Jun 17 20:42 |
| DaemonMDV | you asked but I think I mentioned that before | Jun 17 20:42 |
| DaemonMDV | I tried it again in MSC mode and it stays on the device til I try to play the file then it disappears | Jun 17 20:43 |
| _Hicham_ | here is a hint | Jun 17 20:43 |
| _Hicham_ | change the extension to wma and see | Jun 17 20:43 |
| _Hicham_ | if that works by extension | Jun 17 20:43 |
| _Hicham_ | or format | Jun 17 20:43 |
| _Hicham_ | I am gonna reboot into openSUSE | Jun 17 20:44 |
| *_Hicham_ has quit ("Leaving.") | Jun 17 20:44 | |
| DaemonMDV | WMA? why would that make it work | Jun 17 20:44 |
| DaemonMDV | if it doesn't have a codec it won't work | Jun 17 20:44 |
| DaemonMDV | doesn't matter what I name it | Jun 17 20:44 |
| DaemonMDV | though interestingly enough I can use ffmpeg to make WMA files | Jun 17 20:45 |
| DaemonMDV | they sound better than Microsoft's encoder too | Jun 17 20:45 |
| DaemonMDV | any guesses as to how many patents that violates? | Jun 17 20:46 |
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| *_Hicham_ (n=hicham@41.249.67.146) has joined #boycottnovell | Jun 17 21:02 | |
| _Hicham_ | openSUSE LiveCD uses a different technology | Jun 17 21:02 |
| _Hicham_ | different from Ubuntu an Fedora's ones | Jun 17 21:03 |
| _Hicham_ | the boot process started normally from harddisk, then it complained about a missing config file | Jun 17 21:03 |
| _Hicham_ | DeamonMDV : can u explain? | Jun 17 21:04 |
| _Hicham_ | where is that DaemonMDV? | Jun 17 21:05 |
| _Hicham_ | where r u? | Jun 17 21:05 |
| _Hicham_ | show up! | Jun 17 21:05 |
| *_Hicham_ has quit (Client Quit) | Jun 17 21:06 | |
| DaemonMDV | Suse rolls out a series of image files | Jun 17 21:08 |
| -BNc/#boycottnovell-[davidgerard] RT @angusprune:RT @edent: http://twitpic.com/7n0jr - A police officer has just asked me to delete this photo of her van in a disabled bay. | Jun 17 21:12 | |
| MinceR | what the hell | Jun 17 21:12 |
| DaemonMDV | shoot back an email telling her you'll remove it if she's disabled | Jun 17 21:13 |
| DaemonMDV | :P | Jun 17 21:13 |
| schestowitz | OpenOSX releases WinTel 3.0 virtual machine http://www.macnn.com/articles/09/06/14/openosx.ships.wintel.30/ Linux.. | Jun 17 21:17 |
| schestowitz | Troll alert (again) http://blogs.zdnet.com/open-source/?p=4367 | Jun 17 21:26 |
| -BNc/#boycottnovell-[davidgerard] @schestowitz I just got "Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Windows NT 5.1; en-US; rv:1.9.1) Gecko/20090615 Firefox/3.5" (yes, this is an XP box) | Jun 17 21:27 | |
| -BNc/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] GNU/Linux fights suppressive censorship: http://ping.fm/T5UcT | Jun 17 21:27 | |
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| mib_1dgi5z | waz up | Jun 17 21:28 |
| *neonfloss has quit ("Leaving") | Jun 17 21:28 | |
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| -BNc/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] @davidgerard : shoot it !! ;-) | Jun 17 21:32 | |
| schestowitz | "Windows fan boys and paid astroturfers They are willing to break the law to gain against their competition, and being annoying on websites isn't even against the law." Some think the trolling in Ubuntu comes from MSFTers | Jun 17 21:35 |
| schestowitz | http://www.linuxtoday.com/news_story.php3?ltsn=2009-06-17-015-35-NW-CY-UB-0000 | Jun 17 21:35 |
| schestowitz | Setting up an Ubuntu webcam server http://hacktivision.com/index.php/2009/06/16/setting-up-an-ubuntu-webcam-server?blog=2 | Jun 17 21:40 |
| *fewa (n=fewa@174-21-97-134.tukw.qwest.net) has joined #boycottnovell | Jun 17 21:42 | |
| schestowitz | fewa: I watched Wikipedia today (ODF) | Jun 17 21:42 |
| schestowitz | The Microsofters are gentler but still corrupting it | Jun 17 21:42 |
| schestowitz | Their defacing was never undone, either | Jun 17 21:43 |
| -BNc/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] http://ping.fm/ZEHmy The author never uses Linux, yet he runs a "Linux" blog in ZeeDee. It shows. | Jun 17 21:47 | |
| -BNc/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] Mozilla, unlike Google, seems quote bullish on ogg. http://ping.fm/yTaso | Jun 17 21:47 | |
| schestowitz | Facebook Finally Catches Up To MySpace In The U.S. http://www.techcrunch.com/2009/06/15/facebook-finally-catches-up-to-myspace-in-the-us/ | Jun 17 21:48 |
| fewa | did facebook gain or myspace loose? | Jun 17 21:49 |
| schestowitz | The graph shows | Jun 17 21:50 |
| schestowitz | MySpace is a disaster now | Jun 17 21:51 |
| schestowitz | But it's more harmless (or just harmless) | Jun 17 21:51 |
| schestowitz | No 'friends' bother you with stuff (peer pressure) | Jun 17 21:51 |
| schestowitz | Amazing mobile app lets you see the world ‘through online eyes’ http://thenextweb.com/2009/06/17/amazing-mobile-app-lets-world-through-online-eyes/ | Jun 17 21:52 |
| trmanco | FF 3.5 knows how to manage it's memory now | Jun 17 21:52 |
| trmanco | I had 16 tabs open using 270 MB of ram, I closed all except 3 and it's memory usage when down to 110 MB | Jun 17 21:54 |
| trmanco | went* | Jun 17 21:54 |
| schestowitz | For me it hardly works | Jun 17 21:55 |
| schestowitz | I also need to shut it down to flush memory use | Jun 17 21:55 |
| schestowitz | Fatfox | Jun 17 21:55 |
| -BNc/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] Update on KVM. http://ping.fm/LBlkB KVM is important since Microsoftrix snatched Xen and VMware is run by Microsofters. | Jun 17 21:57 | |
| trmanco | http://blog.jonasbandi.net/2009/06/ie-vs-firefox-microsoft-has-to-be.html | Jun 17 21:57 |
| trmanco | they are desperate | Jun 17 21:57 |
| trmanco | https://twitter.com/tengrand_IE8 | Jun 17 22:00 |
| trmanco | see this | Jun 17 22:00 |
| *benJIman is now known as benjamin | Jun 17 22:01 | |
| trmanco | "If you are already using IE8, please switch off the Compatibility Mode!" | Jun 17 22:01 |
| trmanco | f*ck standards they say | Jun 17 22:01 |
| *benjamin is now known as benJIman | Jun 17 22:01 | |
| MinceR | that's what m$ and their fans say too | Jun 17 22:01 |
| -BNc/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] Asa Dotzler (Mozilla): "I think that Theora+Vorbis absolutely trounces H.263+MP3" http://ping.fm/FR1Uq | Jun 17 22:02 | |
| -BNc/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] @trmanco: Microsoft is busy trying to ensure some of its competition dies along /with/ it | Jun 17 22:02 | |
| schestowitz | UbuntuGlobalJam < https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuGlobalJam > | Jun 17 22:02 |
| schestowitz | Yo, check out Saddam's CRIB: http://flavorwire.com/25071/the-architecture-of-war-a-look-at-saddam-husseins-palaces-richard-mosse | Jun 17 22:02 |
| schestowitz | http://www.dklevine.com/general/intellectual/againstfinal.htm | Jun 17 22:03 |
| schestowitz | Here is where criminals go: Giant Burning Holes of the World < http://www.boingboing.net/2009/06/16/giant-burning-holes.html > | Jun 17 22:04 |
| schestowitz | Hell no! | Jun 17 22:04 |
| *DaemonMDV has quit (Remote closed the connection) | Jun 17 22:05 | |
| -BNc/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] Behold Opera Unite: the Anti-Fog Computing < http://ping.fm/VNCmo > #FogComputing | Jun 17 22:07 | |
| schestowitz | MSFTer (Anderson): Opera Unite: another way to share, another nightmare for digital rights < http://www.itwriting.com/blog/1529-opera-unite-another-way-to-share-another-nightmare-for-digital-rights.html > | Jun 17 22:07 |
| trmanco | pff | Jun 17 22:08 |
| trmanco | something cool comes out, they call it crap? | Jun 17 22:09 |
| trmanco | geesh | Jun 17 22:09 |
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| -BNc/#boycottnovell-[davidgerard] Second World tells First World to just bugger off kthx there's a good chap http://is.gd/14IA2 | Jun 17 22:12 | |
| fewa | trmanco, lol | Jun 17 22:13 |
| fewa | fuck standards | Jun 17 22:13 |
| MinceR | they're pissed at opera because they dared speak against m$'s anticompetitive practices in the EU | Jun 17 22:13 |
| MinceR | so they'll lie anything about opera to make it look bad | Jun 17 22:13 |
| fewa | the removed the reference to firefox | Jun 17 22:14 |
| fewa | now its just "that browser" | Jun 17 22:14 |
| fewa | o it didnt read my user agent | Jun 17 22:14 |
| trmanco | fewa, thats because you are using 3.5, right? | Jun 17 22:18 |
| fewa | ahh | Jun 17 22:18 |
| trmanco | if you use 3.0 it will say FF | Jun 17 22:18 |
| trmanco | old Firefox | Jun 17 22:18 |
| fewa | i switched my useragent to ie and its too stupid | Jun 17 22:18 |
| trmanco | tarnished Chrome | Jun 17 22:18 |
| trmanco | yeah | Jun 17 22:18 |
| fewa | doesnt even user propritary IE8 <!--[if statements | Jun 17 22:18 |
| trmanco | but you won't get far | Jun 17 22:18 |
| fewa | talk about anti-competitive | Jun 17 22:19 |
| trmanco | you can turn off "compitability mode" | Jun 17 22:19 |
| trmanco | that is the first clue | Jun 17 22:19 |
| fewa | isnt there alot of regulations on contests where a purchace is required? | Jun 17 22:19 |
| schestowitz | "@TheyKnowIt: photosynth ain't cross platform, by design (it used to run Linux when MS bought it)" | Jun 17 22:19 |
| fewa | why they always say "no purchace required" | Jun 17 22:19 |
| schestowitz | Is that a MSFTer? | Jun 17 22:19 |
| schestowitz | https://twitter.com/TheyKnowIt " If MS project Natal was by Nitendo would we still hearing the buzz? why?" | Jun 17 22:19 |
| schestowitz | Whoa | Jun 17 22:20 |
| schestowitz | Look at this account | Jun 17 22:20 |
| schestowitz | it's a Turfer | Jun 17 22:20 |
| fewa | same thing over and over again | Jun 17 22:20 |
| fewa | report to @spam | Jun 17 22:21 |
| schestowitz | OK | Jun 17 22:23 |
| fewa | the account purposefully uses bad grammer | Jun 17 22:24 |
| fewa | "are google" | Jun 17 22:24 |
| schestowitz | Why purposefully? | Jun 17 22:24 |
| fewa | idk perhaps not | Jun 17 22:25 |
| trmanco | "I like the windows progress bar when copying a file. | Jun 17 22:25 |
| trmanco | It takes more time to calculate how much time it takes to move the file than to move the file." | Jun 17 22:25 |
| fewa | makeby just lazy | Jun 17 22:25 |
| schestowitz | Trufers are cheap | Jun 17 22:25 |
| schestowitz | Could be prison inmates | Jun 17 22:25 |
| trmanco | now that's pretty darn funny | Jun 17 22:25 |
| schestowitz | They just need to do guerrilla, not make arguments | Jun 17 22:25 |
| schestowitz | Like with LawMedia | Jun 17 22:25 |
| schestowitz | Mcirosoft used them to hire poor people (and minorities) to attack Google | Jun 17 22:26 |
| schestowitz | This was exposed | Jun 17 22:26 |
| fewa | geeze | Jun 17 22:26 |
| -BNc/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] is the account TheyKnowIt < http://ping.fm/GRGRP > a Microsoft AstroTurfer? Watch the shouting there. | Jun 17 22:27 | |
| -BNc/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] MySpace cuts 30% of staff < http://www.theregister.co.uk/2009/06/16/myspace_cuts_30_of_staff/ >. Passing fad? | Jun 17 22:27 | |
| schestowitz | Yay! | Jun 17 22:29 |
| schestowitz | MS YouTube contender is dying | Jun 17 22:29 |
| schestowitz | "Microsoft plans to "significantly scale back" its Soapbox service, the would-be YouTube challenger it launched in 2006. Whatever that means." | Jun 17 22:29 |
| schestowitz | http://www.theregister.co.uk/2009/06/17/microsoft_takes_hatchet_to_soapbox/ | Jun 17 22:29 |
| MinceR | it means that they're throwing in the towel :> | Jun 17 22:29 |
| fewa | microsoft is trying to be the conputer business | Jun 17 22:30 |
| fewa | it simply isnt possible | Jun 17 22:30 |
| MinceR | indeed | Jun 17 22:30 |
| fewa | their pirate days are numbered | Jun 17 22:32 |
| -BNc/#boycottnovell-[davidgerard] @schestowitz as I pointed out to @glynmoody , the question is what comes after facebook | Jun 17 22:32 | |
| -BNc/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] Will Microsoft's YouTube wannabe be documented in YouTube (because it's dying)? http://ping.fm/vCNom It's like book search. | Jun 17 22:32 | |
| MinceR | it's a disgrace to pirates to call m$ one of them | Jun 17 22:32 |
| fewa | but M$ was a real pirate | Jun 17 22:32 |
| fewa | boarding computing ships and taking loot | Jun 17 22:33 |
| MinceR | i'd rather call them a parasite | Jun 17 22:33 |
| MinceR | they were sucking the life out of the IT industry | Jun 17 22:33 |
| fewa | thats what they are now | Jun 17 22:33 |
| MinceR | and through it from our society | Jun 17 22:33 |
| fewa | pirates are a form of parasite | Jun 17 22:33 |
| MinceR | i can't follow that | Jun 17 22:34 |
| fewa | pirates live of the loot from others, that is the definition of parasite | Jun 17 22:34 |
| fewa | i know there are other definitions of parisite | Jun 17 22:34 |
| fewa | but this is the classic sense | Jun 17 22:34 |
| fewa | big companies call others pirates cause they are hiding their own actions | Jun 17 22:34 |
| fewa | its like MPs meaning of life intro | Jun 17 22:35 |
| fewa | http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=2498206364209961454 | Jun 17 22:36 |
| fewa | not quite :P | Jun 17 22:37 |
| schestowitz | LOL http://blogs.zdnet.com/microsoft/?p=3083 MS is mad. Throwing Windows cheap now, for stupid people to pay LATER | Jun 17 22:38 |
| schestowitz | They do ANYTHING to block people from embracing Apple and GNU | Jun 17 22:38 |
| fewa | also trying to implament the MS rent | Jun 17 22:38 |
| fewa | dont want people to own their computers | Jun 17 22:38 |
| schestowitz | Why would they? Like in India where they try it | Jun 17 22:39 |
| schestowitz | You buy cards | Jun 17 22:39 |
| schestowitz | And then pay per hour | Jun 17 22:39 |
| MinceR | In Soviet Russia, Apple embraces YOU!! oh, wait | Jun 17 22:39 |
| schestowitz | It's offensive | Jun 17 22:39 |
| schestowitz | MinceR: in Russia there's no Apple | Jun 17 22:39 |
| schestowitz | Apple only /really/ exists in rich countries | Jun 17 22:40 |
| MinceR | lucky people | Jun 17 22:40 |
| schestowitz | People buy the ticket to the culture | Jun 17 22:40 |
| schestowitz | Some do it by being cheapstakes and buying a Shuffle | Jun 17 22:40 |
| MinceR | a bacterium culture all right | Jun 17 22:40 |
| fewa | Apple's NY store made $450 million in sales last year | Jun 17 22:40 |
| fewa | i mean holy shit | Jun 17 22:40 |
| schestowitz | They still have the Apple carved onto it | Jun 17 22:40 |
| MinceR | yes, there are lots of rich and stupid people | Jun 17 22:40 |
| fewa | thats alot of revenue for one store | Jun 17 22:41 |
| schestowitz | fewa: how much in Beunos Aires? | Jun 17 22:41 |
| fewa | no apple is a niche product | Jun 17 22:41 |
| schestowitz | That's where they start pulling a Psystar | Jun 17 22:41 |
| schestowitz | Apple=caviar | Jun 17 22:41 |
| schestowitz | Linux=meal | Jun 17 22:41 |
| schestowitz | Windows=poison | Jun 17 22:41 |
| fewa | http://arstechnica.com/apple/news/2009/06/fifth-avenue-apple-store-is-a-cash-cow.ars | Jun 17 22:42 |
| schestowitz | BSD=eat fire, biatch | Jun 17 22:42 |
| -BNc/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] @davidgerard: FB still goes upwards, it's Twitter which started going down | Jun 17 22:42 | |
| MinceR | i doubt caviar is that bad | Jun 17 22:42 |
| fewa | it is | Jun 17 22:42 |
| schestowitz | It's expensive | Jun 17 22:42 |
| fewa | I had a friend who fighed | Jun 17 22:42 |
| schestowitz | So you have to like it | Jun 17 22:42 |
| fewa | and just tossed the row | Jun 17 22:42 |
| MinceR | oh. | Jun 17 22:42 |
| schestowitz | Like diamonds | Jun 17 22:42 |
| schestowitz | Or soft metals like gold | Jun 17 22:42 |
| fewa | didnt even feed it to his dog (he should have done that) | Jun 17 22:42 |
| schestowitz | Diamond is at least hard | Jun 17 22:42 |
| schestowitz | Good for digging the ground | Jun 17 22:43 |
| fewa | and one fish has alot of row | Jun 17 22:43 |
| MinceR | i've eaten roe (not as expensive as caviar though) -- it wasn't bad | Jun 17 22:43 |
| fewa | caviar is a special row, but its really all the same | Jun 17 22:43 |
| fewa | not as good as the fish itsself | Jun 17 22:43 |
| MinceR | there are harder materials than diamond though | Jun 17 22:43 |
| fewa | its like eating your own blood, not very nutritious | Jun 17 22:43 |
| fewa | its a culturral, class, thing. not about nutritiousness or tastieness | Jun 17 22:44 |
| schestowitz | Mary Jo PR is still PRing | Jun 17 22:44 |
| schestowitz | MS MS MS..... | Jun 17 22:45 |
| schestowitz | Wow, wow, wow | Jun 17 22:45 |
| schestowitz | "Ain't em teh wonderful?" | Jun 17 22:45 |
| schestowitz | At least she lets go some material that's ugly every now and then | Jun 17 22:45 |
| MinceR | hm, maybe i was wrong about that | Jun 17 22:48 |
| schestowitz | Caviar? | Jun 17 22:49 |
| schestowitz | Caviuck | Jun 17 22:50 |
| schestowitz | It's all culture and norms of cuisine | Jun 17 22:50 |
| schestowitz | Same with shrimps and seafood | Jun 17 22:50 |
| schestowitz | MinceR: could over to the toilet bowl to eat dead seaweed and Caviuck... | Jun 17 22:51 |
| schestowitz | Hmmmmmm...... sounds yummy, eh? | Jun 17 22:51 |
| *schestowitz drools | Jun 17 22:51 | |
| schestowitz | It's all about how scarce food is and how it's being presented | Jun 17 22:51 |
| MinceR | nope, about materials harder than diamond | Jun 17 22:51 |
| schestowitz | Put Vista7 in the brown paper bag of Ubuntu 4.10 and see how it sells | Jun 17 22:51 |
| MinceR | what i could gather is that there were some compounds that were predicted to be harder but turned out not to be once synthesized | Jun 17 22:51 |
| -BNc/#boycottnovell-[zoobab] Imminent threat of software patents in New Zealand: http://bit.ly/NfTR1 Deadline to submit proposals 2nd of July | Jun 17 22:52 | |
| -BNc/#boycottnovell-[davidgerard] @schestowitz you know, I had never even *heard* of soapbox | Jun 17 22:52 | |
| MinceR | nah, the paper bag is for something else :> | Jun 17 22:52 |
| schestowitz | Diamond is the hardest in Mortel Kombat | Jun 17 22:52 |
| fewa | bahhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhgggggggggggggg | Jun 17 22:52 |
| schestowitz | *tal | Jun 17 22:52 |
| MinceR | lucky we had a paper bag. | Jun 17 22:52 |
| schestowitz | It's for the caviar | Jun 17 22:55 |
| schestowitz | [when you puke] | Jun 17 22:55 |
| fewa | http://yro.slashdot.org/story/09/06/17/1625215/British-Court-Rules-Against-Blogger-Anonymity <--Britian's decline into police state | Jun 17 22:56 |
| MinceR | i thought it was for vista7 | Jun 17 22:56 |
| MinceR | or something related | Jun 17 22:56 |
| -BNc/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] @davidgerard: So @Waggener and Munchs ain't doin' their job. | Jun 17 22:57 | |
| fewa | http://www.flickr.com/photos/toasty/2171185463/sizes/l/ | Jun 17 22:57 |
| schestowitz | fewa: yes, seen that news | Jun 17 22:58 |
| schestowitz | zoobab01: that site is down | Jun 17 22:58 |
| schestowitz | NZ | Jun 17 22:58 |
| *tacone (n=Adium@151.80.13.127) has joined #boycottnovell | Jun 17 22:58 | |
| MinceR | very 1984-ish | Jun 17 22:59 |
| *schestowitz starts preparing daily links (BN) | Jun 17 23:01 | |
| *Python1320 has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)) | Jun 17 23:02 | |
| -BNc/#boycottnovell-[davidgerard] Songsmith is the greatest MS product in history. Billy Idol "White Wedding": http://torvalds-family.blogspot.com/2009/01/fantastic.html | Jun 17 23:17 | |
| -BNc/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] Dell Targets Schools, GNU/Linux a Possibility http://ping.fm/ek381 | Jun 17 23:17 | |
| -BNc/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] Ubuntu Linux and Others Target Microsoft's Escapees http://ping.fm/xrXEr | Jun 17 23:17 | |
| -BNc/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] Ubuntu GNU/Linux Servers Get the "ACK" from Microsoft Partner H-P http://ping.fm/d3Nyy | Jun 17 23:17 | |
| *_Goblin (n=goblin@94-193-188-104.zone7.bethere.co.uk) has joined #boycottnovell | Jun 17 23:17 | |
| fewa | Youtube removes videos and claims they violate the ToS | Jun 17 23:19 |
| fewa | but they dont | Jun 17 23:19 |
| schestowitz | True | Jun 17 23:19 |
| fewa | they do it to cover removing videos for bad taste or preempting DMCA requests | Jun 17 23:19 |
| schestowitz | Also removes audio sometimes | Jun 17 23:19 |
| schestowitz | It's a hard task | Jun 17 23:20 |
| fewa | like they have removed police brutality videos | Jun 17 23:20 |
| schestowitz | People re-upload | Jun 17 23:20 |
| fewa | under "ToS" | Jun 17 23:20 |
| schestowitz | And compain | Jun 17 23:20 |
| schestowitz | Maybe sue | Jun 17 23:20 |
| schestowitz | But they have done OK for 3 years | Jun 17 23:20 |
| fewa | when they were in court documents and are therefore free to redistrobute | Jun 17 23:20 |
| schestowitz | Some lawsuits they survived.. | Jun 17 23:20 |
| fewa | or even the product of a government agent | Jun 17 23:20 |
| fewa | they have been fighting viacom hard | Jun 17 23:21 |
| fewa | and good | Jun 17 23:21 |
| fewa | preventing the messenger from being blamed for the message | Jun 17 23:21 |
| -BNc/#boycottnovell-[davidgerard] NotN: Microsoft Bob Hope and IE8 tighten their, er, grip http://notnews.today.com/2009/06/17/microsoft-bob-hope-and-ie8-tighten-their-grip/ | Jun 17 23:22 | |
| -BNc/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] Minix is Alive and Well http://ping.fm/tkBkB | Jun 17 23:22 | |
| fewa | geeze those dels are expensive | Jun 17 23:22 |
| fewa | and not very good specs | Jun 17 23:23 |
| fewa | dell has better laptops for 1/2 the cost and at least 2x the specs | Jun 17 23:23 |
| fewa | unless they are targeting private schools they shouldnt be asking more than $300 each | Jun 17 23:25 |
| schestowitz | True. | Jun 17 23:26 |
| schestowitz | Schools have better options | Jun 17 23:26 |
| schestowitz | And lobbyists | Jun 17 23:26 |
| fewa | and even $300 ones have more than enought specs | Jun 17 23:26 |
| fewa | i think they are targeting money-stupid private schools | Jun 17 23:27 |
| -BNc/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] CentOS (Red Hat Rebranded) Releases Its Second Newsletter http://ping.fm/uZd8T CentOS runs BN | Jun 17 23:27 | |
| schestowitz | fewa: I guess they do. Why don't the parents buy the PCs? | Jun 17 23:28 |
| schestowitz | Must it be uniform? | Jun 17 23:28 |
| schestowitz | Animal farm of child eduction? | Jun 17 23:28 |
| fewa | patents should buy them | Jun 17 23:28 |
| fewa | as then the schools cant attack free specch and censor their stupids | Jun 17 23:29 |
| fewa | *students lol | Jun 17 23:29 |
| fewa | and instal spyware | Jun 17 23:29 |
| fewa | even if the school buys them they should be the kid's laptops | Jun 17 23:29 |
| schestowitz | IE-only sites | Jun 17 23:31 |
| schestowitz | ActiveX controls | Jun 17 23:31 |
| -BNc/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] Phoronix Demonstrates Changes in the Speed of Linux (Fedora) Over Time http://ping.fm/XKXWG | Jun 17 23:32 | |
| *neighborlee (n=neighbor@c-24-16-17-168.hsd1.wa.comcast.net) has joined #boycottnovell | Jun 17 23:36 | |
| -BNc/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] Interview with Ubuntu Brancher http://ping.fm/QSHYC | Jun 17 23:37 | |
| tacone | "So Mono has to run in Wine to support some applications. Nice way to create something you can demo as failing on Linux really.” | Jun 17 23:41 |
| tacone | Wine is excluded by the Novell-Microsoft covenant. | Jun 17 23:42 |
| -BNc/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] "...corrupt young and innocent minds – well, senior managers..." http://ping.fm/aEQD8 | Jun 17 23:42 | |
| fewa | tacone, that is only a FUD spread to think that microsoft has any right to exclude wine | Jun 17 23:43 |
| tacone | fewa: it's included in the official deal. | Jun 17 23:44 |
| tacone | it's a specific exception. | Jun 17 23:44 |
| fewa | but the whole thing its so vague that it could mean anything | Jun 17 23:44 |
| tacone | fewa: https://bugs.launchpad.net/mononono/+bug/387021 | Jun 17 23:45 |
| schestowitz | tacone: it is | Jun 17 23:45 |
| schestowitz | Wine jeopardised by the Novell dea | Jun 17 23:45 |
| schestowitz | *deal | Jun 17 23:45 |
| tacone | in reality that doesn't matter much | Jun 17 23:46 |
| fewa | When microsoft starts going on the offensive GPL-3 holders will start suing the pants off of novell | Jun 17 23:46 |
| tacone | it just means that EVEN novell can't be safe from trials about wine. | Jun 17 23:46 |
| tacone | nor openoffice, btw. | Jun 17 23:47 |
| neighborlee | yay its no longer a DEPEND ;)) | Jun 17 23:49 |
| -BNc/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] Ubuntu/Mono: Patent Convenant considered discriminatory http://ping.fm/w3BPR | Jun 17 23:52 | |
| DaemonMDV | I don't get it | Jun 17 23:53 |
| DaemonMDV | spamming Ubuntu Launchpad? | Jun 17 23:53 |
| DaemonMDV | That seems pretty low | Jun 17 23:53 |
| schestowitz | It's not spamming | Jun 17 23:55 |
| schestowitz | Read http://pastebin.com/f4c3dce66 | Jun 17 23:55 |
| DaemonMDV | I should form a project and file a bug on "Chuck Norris says Mono is bad" | Jun 17 23:56 |
| DaemonMDV | and confirm it | Jun 17 23:56 |
| DaemonMDV | so what exactly does doing that give you? | Jun 17 23:56 |
| -BNc/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] "Astroturfing Experts" Teach a Lessons in the Criminal Side/s of PR Industry http://ping.fm/u8AdM Worse than PR are lobbysists. | Jun 17 23:57 | |
| -BNc/#boycottnovell-[davidgerard] DW/LJ: White wedding. http://reddragdiva.dreamwidth.org/8093.html http://reddragdiva.livejournal.com/521916.html | Jun 17 23:57 | |
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