IRC: #boycottnovell @ FreeNode: June 17th, 2009

schestowitzoiaohm: take a look. 17 00:00
oiaohmI really have to cover the technical side of mono some time.Jun 17 00:01
schestowitzMinceR was looking for youJun 17 00:02
schestowitzRe JITJun 17 00:02
oiaohmIts not that hard really.  If you were to rebuild something like net and java but this time for performance.Jun 17 00:02
oiaohmYou would design it like vala.Jun 17 00:02
oiaohmThin wrappers to C and gobject that disappear in the the jit/aot processes.  For qt support you would try to sneek in C++ same kind of thin wrapper.Jun 17 00:03
oiaohmThere is a reason why java and .net wrappers are thick.   Java and .net are designed to provide there only mandorary access control system.Jun 17 00:04
schestowitzGoogle to delete Street View source images 17 00:04
schestowitzThat's like saying I too must destory my personal photosJun 17 00:05
schestowitzBecause they may contain faces of othersJun 17 00:05
oiaohmThe gnote push worries .net developers for the simple fact it shows them how open to being replaced they are.Jun 17 00:08
schestowitz*LOL* Ryanair requires web check-in, shuts down website < >Jun 17 00:09
schestowitzThey also require Silver LieJun 17 00:09
schestowitzoiaohm: let me show you something.Jun 17 00:09
schestowitz 17 00:10
schestowitzSee the remark about it having an impactJun 17 00:10
schestowitzMono groupaz don't feel so happy about gnote and the other trendsJun 17 00:10
schestowitzMono loses mind shareJun 17 00:10
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] Iran's revolution will not be televised, but could be tweeted < > Internet liberates.Jun 17 00:12
oiaohmSo he is trying to get the paperwork.  Why can he not just say that openly.Jun 17 00:13
schestowitzWell, duhJun 17 00:14
schestowitzIt would scare peopleJun 17 00:14
oiaohmThat the information is coming just very slowly.   So we can decide to hold of mono until we get the paperwork.Jun 17 00:14
oiaohmUnderstanding the patent system is not complex.Jun 17 00:14
oiaohmYou should not need to understand the patent system when dealing with a truthful standard.Jun 17 00:15
oiaohmSaying it openly would presure MS to answer problem.Jun 17 00:15
oiaohmThis is my problem.  If mono/.net design was technically the best you would have a reason to consider disregarding patents and the problems.   Does not take much investagtion to find that its not techinclaly the best.Jun 17 00:19
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fewaschestowitz, daily show covered itJun 17 00:20
fewairanJun 17 00:20
oiaohmNext time I should use the example of fat patents against mono.Jun 17 00:24
schestowitzfewa: did CNN and FAUX?Jun 17 00:28
fewaI don't know, i don't watch crapJun 17 00:28
oiaohmPart of my problem comes from being in wine forums/mail list over the years.Jun 17 00:29
oiaohmWhen you tell a windows developer that they cannot expect to randomally call out to the native system they put up all kinds of evil hacks to break out to justify there case for being allowed system access.Jun 17 00:30
schestowitzSo basically, secretly for all I can tell, Miguel says he trying to get Mono paperwork, but he's not able to get anything yet, so Mono-based projects suffer in the mean time.Jun 17 00:30
schestowitzWine?Jun 17 00:30
schestowitzWell, wine is a different storieJun 17 00:30
schestowitz*yJun 17 00:30
schestowitzSo is SambaJun 17 00:31
oiaohmThe people you are dealing with is not.Jun 17 00:31
schestowitzFor several reasonsJun 17 00:31
oiaohmWindows insane codersJun 17 00:31
schestowitzMono is here to sort of "build" LinuxJun 17 00:31
schestowitzWine is notJun 17 00:31
schestowitzSamba lets us talk to Windows-contaminated networksJun 17 00:31
fewavery differn't thingsJun 17 00:31
oiaohmPeople around mono are the same idiot windows coders I had to sort out in wine forums all the time.Jun 17 00:32
schestowitzIf I want to talk to any machine I have I use fish:// SSH SCO rsyncJun 17 00:32
schestowitzI never set up SambaJun 17 00:32
schestowitzLike ever.Jun 17 00:32
oiaohmI know they are different things.Jun 17 00:32
oiaohmLot of windows coders love sticking there head in sand and disreguarding problems.Jun 17 00:33
oiaohmSince something works once it should always.  If you break what they do you are responsiable.  Not that they were doing bad coding prac.Jun 17 00:33
neighborleeit supports their agenda , no doubt backed up by foundation which holds up their finances.Jun 17 00:34
neighborleeand that isnt just me saying or feeling that..many others.Jun 17 00:34
oiaohmBasically schestowitz those kinds of windows coders all have completely screwed up logic.Jun 17 00:34
oiaohmI just though I should tell you where my skills for ripping them apart has come from schestowitzJun 17 00:37
BalrogMono can be used as WineJun 17 00:39
Balrogthat's what I use it for, if I mustJun 17 00:39
oiaohm  Hmm interesting.  Install software into android scan a bar code.Jun 17 00:39
Balrogthe agenda of those who are producing it is different thoughJun 17 00:39
schestowitzQuestion:Jun 17 00:39
schestowitzIs Jo shields a developer at some cpacity?Jun 17 00:40
schestowitzI try to get a sense for who promotes MonoJun 17 00:40
schestowitzI doubt Miguel develops muchJun 17 00:40
schestowitzLinus doesn't, eitherJun 17 00:40
schestowitzRMS -- sameJun 17 00:40
schestowitzGave emacs for others to maintainJun 17 00:40
BalrogLinus does someJun 17 00:40
schestowitzSo WHO promotes Mono?Jun 17 00:40
schestowitzNovell employees, and..................Jun 17 00:41
schestowitzI know Microsoft bloggers have a hardon for MonoJun 17 00:41
schestowitzAnd that's not a good sign (for us)Jun 17 00:41
schestowitzThey also hold up Miguel as a poster child for LinuxJun 17 00:42
schestowitzBecause he promotes his friends from Redmond, advancing WindwosJun 17 00:42
schestowitzYikes. 17 00:43
schestowitzI liked what I saw in KDE4Jun 17 00:44
neighborleeeyes wide open..who else would so easily support patents..or any indication of such a threat to FOSS...novel &/or those I guess using mono in productivity ?Jun 17 00:44
schestowitzMaybe I didn't use it long enough? Maybe they complain in vainJun 17 00:44
neighborleeis someone that is OSC systems manager likely to be a coder ?Jun 17 00:45
neighborleewell..I used it in fedora 12 RC..Jun 17 00:45
oiaohm  I do know jo shields is trying to get maintainership rights in different places.Jun 17 00:45
neighborleewas buggy..but im not sure if it was fedora or kde4 at fault ;))Jun 17 00:45
neighborleeor both..Jun 17 00:45
neighborleebut it def. is nice..visual wize it does compete with windows if thats a perceived goalJun 17 00:46
neighborleeoiaohm, most definitely he is...Jun 17 00:46
neighborlee 17 00:47
oiaohm  Also handy is every created ubuntu motu has a background created page.Jun 17 00:48
oiaohmOf course always in the postiveJun 17 00:48
schestowitz UPDATE: CrunchPad Unboxed on Video REMOVED - PR stunt?Jun 17 00:48
oiaohmI guess you did not know about behindmotu with ubuntu schestowitz.Jun 17 00:49
schestowitz"Mirco Bauer (meebey)"Jun 17 00:50
schestowitzUh ohJun 17 00:50
schestowitzThat explains somethingJun 17 00:50
schestowitzHe shows up in BN to defend Jo on occasionsJun 17 00:50
oiaohmBookmark behindmotu  its a useful site when dealing with different ubuntu motu's.Jun 17 00:53
oiaohmFound it particularly handy when I had to bring a ubuntu motu under control who was creating bad wine packages.Jun 17 00:55
schestowitzoiaohm: watch the commentsJun 17 00:56
schestowitz3/5 are from JoJun 17 00:56
schestowitzusing different nuyms evebn!Jun 17 00:56
schestowitzLike sockpuppet, bith with pis of chickensJun 17 00:56
schestowitz*both *picsJun 17 00:57
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] Nice short review of Fedora 11: 17 00:57
oiaohmAlso Mirco Bauer is one of the main mono maintainers in debian.Jun 17 01:00
oiaohmSo attacking mono is attacking is footing in the debian world.Jun 17 01:01
schestowitzI knowJun 17 01:01
schestowitzHe showed me thatJun 17 01:01
oiaohmI cannot comment to much on Mirco Bauer we do have bad blood with each other.    If I used one of my old handles he would remember me.Jun 17 01:02
schestowitzOld one?Jun 17 01:08
schestowitzThere was a long Debian confrontation here this morning.Jun 17 01:10
schestowitzI think you were absentJun 17 01:10
schestowitzbasically, the lobbying for Mono by default was here arguing and cursingJun 17 01:10
schestowitz*istJun 17 01:10
oiaohmIts pre .net schestowitzJun 17 01:10
oiaohmI have been a debian user for a very long time schestowitz.Jun 17 01:11
oiaohmPitty I missed that.Jun 17 01:12
oiaohmI had one last night with np over patents.Jun 17 01:12
oiaohmMono supporters cannot win if you reduce arguement to cold hard logic.Jun 17 01:16
schestowitzoiaohm: you can see the log tomorrowJun 17 01:16
schestowitzOr actually, i'll post it nowJun 17 01:16
oiaohmIts funny many years ago they did not even bother fighting you.Jun 17 01:18
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oiaohm"First they ignore you, then they ridicule you, then they fight you, then you win." -  Mahatma GandhiJun 17 01:21
neighborleeoiaohm, and I did..and they could not , your right  of course...but common sense already told us this no great surprise..instead of working WITH foss they chose to work ironicJun 17 01:21
neighborleeoiaohm, exactly rightJun 17 01:21
oiaohmWe are somewhere between ridicule and fight at moment.Jun 17 01:22
neighborleereasonableJun 17 01:22
neighborleedef. closer to fightJun 17 01:22
oiaohmMore we force pure logic more we force it into fight.Jun 17 01:23
schestowitzoiaohm: I've posted this for you. <Np237> is your man. 17 01:23
schestowitzgnJun 17 01:23
neighborleeoiaohm, it sure seems that wayJun 17 01:25
neighborleeoiaohm, a cornerd animal sometimes reacts this way.Jun 17 01:25
oiaohmIts fight or flight.  Its coded into all creatures including humans.Jun 17 01:26
oiaohmGandhi if you read his works tells you to disreguard ridicule and just use logic.Jun 17 01:28
oiaohmBest answer to ridicule is laugh at them for doing it.Jun 17 01:28
oiaohmThe last time I got into big fights was over the create of the freedesktop project forcing logic into project leads of gnome and kde.Jun 17 01:30
oiaohmIn that process I did get up some developers nosies.Jun 17 01:31
oiaohmNp237 really did not have a clue who is was talking about when he said the merged memu's was a bad idea.   He was talking to the person who started that idea.Jun 17 01:34
neighborleeoiaohm, correctJun 17 01:36
neighborleeoiaohm, raised christian per se although it wasn't something 2/47 on any level..but I completely and utterly respect other religions good works...and man ghandi is def. one of riches ;)Jun 17 01:37
neighborlee24/7 o_)Jun 17 01:38
oiaohmI have never really been a open source coder.Jun 17 01:39
oiaohmBut I have over my years proded it in different locations and got important things to happen.Jun 17 01:39
neighborleehehe you got up a few of their noses ey ?Jun 17 01:39
neighborleeYour sucha radical ;))<grin>Jun 17 01:40
oiaohmParticularly when you think at the time Gnome and KDE was basically at war.Jun 17 01:40
neighborleethis aruging really bites..we're suppose towork together here on solve problems we face as a group of humans inhabint a planet we are here to be stewards overJun 17 01:40
oiaohmwith the idea of crushing each other.Jun 17 01:40
neighborleetis trueJun 17 01:40
oiaohmTalking about both sides working as one really was asking for trouble.Jun 17 01:41
neighborleeseems so atm.Jun 17 01:41
neighborlee:)Jun 17 01:41
oiaohmBut someone had todo it.Jun 17 01:41
neighborlee:))Jun 17 01:41
oiaohmBeing a non developer in either blocked me from being acused of bias.Jun 17 01:41
oiaohmSomething lot of the open source world over looks there is sometimes a requirement for non developers to talk between developers to make the path forwards.Jun 17 01:42
oiaohmLot of the gnome camp still has the old war footing with KDE.Jun 17 01:43
oiaohmKDE is mostly indifferent.Jun 17 01:43
oiaohmAs a desktop envorment maintainers should be.    Is the application good if so expect users to use it.Jun 17 01:44
oiaohmI find today if I want to setup a round table on creating a common standard on something.  Kde developers no problems.   Particular gnome developers resist.Jun 17 01:46
oiaohmIn time gnome developers will have to give up there war footing and embrace the rest of the open source world.Jun 17 01:47
neighborleeoiaohm, hmm non developer non bias..:))Jun 17 01:49
neighborleeoiaohm, developers dont always make the best code...usability reports end users..all makes for cooperation ;)Jun 17 01:50
neighborleeoiaohm, nothing wrong with simple..but when it gets in the way of getting work done it is no longer simple or effective..Jun 17 01:51
oiaohmExactly neighborleeJun 17 01:51
neighborleeoiaohm, linus believed that and I tend to agree..though at the time I was stilll using gnome..seems ages ago now o_0Jun 17 01:51
oiaohmLinus actively promotes developers and users talking to each other.Jun 17 01:52
oiaohmBecause it so simple when coding to loss the means to see the big picture of what you are doing.Jun 17 01:52
oiaohmIts part of the problem the mono developers have.   They are so close in they cannot see anything else.Jun 17 01:53
neighborleeI hope kde talks are not as divisive and convoluted as some arguemnts ive seen on gnome ML...miguel was insistent on topic on bindings though it took reminding him often it seems that that was not the idea ...makes you wonder what else he ..confused...Jun 17 01:53
neighborleeim referring to 2006 ML conversation--Jun 17 01:55
neighborleeOLD yes but something I wasn't aware of...Jun 17 01:55
neighborleeoiaohm, yes he sure doesJun 17 01:55
neighborleeoiaohm, andyes it is ;)Jun 17 01:55
oiaohmWhen you understand human you can see what has gone wrong with mono.Jun 17 01:56
neighborleeoiaohm, only they know the reason..we have to deal with the prevenetion and hopefully little falloutJun 17 01:56
neighborleeDiscussion would go SO much smooother if only reasoned and sincere..but oh well that will have towait for another time it would seem.Jun 17 01:57
oiaohmI see mono getting side swiped by vala and them not having a clue where it came from.Jun 17 01:57
oiaohmIn war always get worried when the other side appears to stopped.   They are normally planning something big.Jun 17 01:58
oiaohmneighborlee: history of mistakes in open source world says given enough time the replacement will appear and nuke the defective design off face or earth.Jun 17 02:01
neighborleeoiaohm, mm maybe vala yesJun 17 02:01
oiaohmvala with a bytecode on top.Jun 17 02:02
oiaohmThere is no way mono could keep up with that.Jun 17 02:02
oiaohmWhere is the bytecode being developed.   Funny enough inside gcc and llvm themselves.Jun 17 02:03
neighborleeoiaohm, ive not kept up with vala but I will look into it more for sureJun 17 02:03
oiaohmIn time mono is doomed.Jun 17 02:04
oiaohmMono developer cannot see this because they have taken there eyes off what is going on.Jun 17 02:05
neighborlee:)Jun 17 02:07
neighborleeive just seen Jo's response to his article..on ubuntu forums...he is attacking someone for just having opinion..Jun 17 02:08
neighborlee2 days ago:Jun 17 02:08
neighborlee Originally Posted by UbuKunubi  View PostJun 17 02:08
neighborleeAS far as Im concerned I have python and C++, so why yet another language? Whatever reasons others give I see no reason for it.Jun 17 02:08
neighborleeJo: Are you telling Free Software developers what you give them permission to use?Jun 17 02:08
neighborleeouchJun 17 02:08
neighborleeso as you say..viewpoint of mono developers..skewedJun 17 02:09
oiaohmSkewed and they are not seeing what is happening.Jun 17 02:09
neighborleehe saw an attack..this poor guys opinion was just that.his own opinion and from what I see..nothing mean or angryJun 17 02:09
neighborleeexactly oiaohmJun 17 02:10
neighborleebrbJun 17 02:10
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neighborlee..Jun 17 02:47
oiaohm  Hmm the company that just will not die.Jun 17 03:05
neighborleeeeshJun 17 03:13
neighborleethx for info ;0-Jun 17 03:13
fewageeseJun 17 03:15
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neighborleeoiaohm, jo posted URL re: roy and some guy regarding his posting habits ...yet Jo nor any other mono supporter have yet to say a simple yes or no to simple question asked, which was " Can Microsoft sue Mono under any circumstances? ",,,just like here they cant answer the tough questions so they redirect instead .Jun 17 03:30
neighborleeoiaohm, < from hereJun 17 03:31
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oiaohmOnce you know the game is not so simple to spot neighborlee.    Cannot answer human nature kicks in to redirect.Jun 17 04:08
neighborleeyesJun 17 04:08
oiaohmThe art is spot it and dropping to logic.Jun 17 04:10
oiaohmAnd logical trap.Jun 17 04:10
oiaohmtrapsJun 17 04:10
oiaohmSolid defience case cannot be broken by either.Jun 17 04:11
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fewa thats kinda coolJun 17 04:14
fewaI like applications that use the internet as it was intendedJun 17 04:14
neighborlee Boycott Novell and Co. Trying to Poison the Ubuntu Community? < then this on 'recurring ' discussions on ubuntu...again..redirect into hate and as noted earlier we win but I suspect people here already know about this ?Jun 17 04:14
neighborleehm interestingJun 17 04:14
ThistleWebfewa: I saw that earlier, it sounds interestingJun 17 04:14
fewaend-2-end FTWJun 17 04:14
ThistleWebI'm gradually warming to Opera, Firefox has some annoying quirks that keep making me look at alternativesJun 17 04:15
fewait is goo for it to be easier for users to host their own serviceJun 17 04:15
neighborleeoiaohm, yupJun 17 04:15
fewaI dont youch opera, i like FOSSJun 17 04:15
neighborleewell long as opera supports oggJun 17 04:15
neighborleefirefox 3.5b4 > does...headway cant be made if we dont try at least to support and use ogg where we can ;)Jun 17 04:16
fewaI wonder if it integrates bonjour/zeroconf/avahi?Jun 17 04:16
oiaohmfewa standard following is more important than closed and open source.Jun 17 04:16
oiaohmopera does do there best to follow standards.Jun 17 04:17
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ThistleWeboiaohm: yep Opera seem to constantly rate high on standards complianceJun 17 04:18
ThistleWebhigher usually than my beloved Firefox most of the time :(Jun 17 04:18
oiaohmRemember netscape navigator a closed source program is where firefox started from.Jun 17 04:18
oiaohmIf opera went under like netscape did it could become the next foss browser.Jun 17 04:19
oiaohmWe don't need to be abusive to closed source companies that do the right things.Jun 17 04:19
oiaohmThinking how rare they are.Jun 17 04:19
neighborleelike nvidiaJun 17 04:20
oiaohmNvidia has done a lot of things wrongJun 17 04:20
oiaohmNvidia caused the break up of one of the projects that was started to sort out the X11 back end problems neighborlee.Jun 17 04:21
fewaoiaohm, old netscape code was completely scrapedJun 17 04:22
fewait was completely rewrittenJun 17 04:22
oiaohmIt still provided a design base fewaJun 17 04:22
fewaand a feature baseJun 17 04:22
fewaie <blink>Jun 17 04:22
oiaohmCompanies like opera are rare.  It truly does have a clean history.Jun 17 04:23
fewagood softwareJun 17 04:23
fewasupport the internet principals of standards and end-2-endJun 17 04:24
oiaohmWhat make opera even rarer is that its closed source.Jun 17 04:25
oiaohmThey have avoid the temption closed source give them to go there own path.Jun 17 04:25
oiaohmOk so they are not FOSS.  The sad point is there are some Foss projects that are worse behaved than opera.Jun 17 04:27
ThistleWebat the risk of being accused of being a troll (I know, anyone is only a few sentences away from it here) I have a counterpoint which could easily be made against one of the points in this reader piece > 17 04:29
ThistleWebthe point of why Microsoft would spend a lot of money developing stuff like IE then just give it away in WindowsJun 17 04:30
ThistleWebif you pay a lot of money for a Windows licence, the more stuff you get pre-installed with the Microsoft brand makes it appear better value for money and less of a bare bones purchaseJun 17 04:31
oiaohmIE is basically not free.  Read its EULA by its EULA its not legal to use it in wine.Jun 17 04:32
ThistleWebif your PC can do basic tasks like surf the net, send email, send PMs, play music and video but you have to go find and install those apps yourself it could lessen the out-of-the-box value for money perceptionJun 17 04:32
oiaohmAgain read the EULA's.Jun 17 04:32
ThistleWebI never said it wasJun 17 04:32
ThistleWebit comes with windowsJun 17 04:33
ThistleWebbundledJun 17 04:33
oiaohmBasically its a myth MS is giving them away.Jun 17 04:33
oiaohmBecause the EULA on them basically say they are part of windows.Jun 17 04:33
ThistleWebok, if you wanna get pedantic, read ly last few comments with your onboard spellchecker and replace "free" with bundled"Jun 17 04:33
oiaohmIts more we have to correct the wrong idea ThistleWeb.Jun 17 04:34
oiaohmYes it a really heavily marketed wrong idea.Jun 17 04:34
ThistleWebwe know the stuff Microsoft do, but many who read that article are gonna look for ways to point out how it's wrong, or how it's true but acceptableJun 17 04:34
ThistleWebthat was an obvious counterpoint I thought of when I read itJun 17 04:35
ThistleWebI don't hold that position, but it's obvious that it will be usedJun 17 04:35
oiaohmAlso vista install disks are a good one against that too.Jun 17 04:36
oiaohmAll the applications are on the disk just you can only install them all if you have the right key.Jun 17 04:37
ThistleWeboiaohm: which is every proprietary app ont he planetJun 17 04:37
ThistleWeblike PhotoshopJun 17 04:37
ThistleWebor DreamweaverJun 17 04:37
ThistleWebif you have a serial it will installJun 17 04:38
oiaohmSo if the applications were free why are some of them only given with particular keys.Jun 17 04:38
oiaohmPhotoshop and dreamweaver don't try to claim the parts are free.Jun 17 04:38
ThistleWebagain, you could argue that you're paying for them in more expensive versions of VistaJun 17 04:38
oiaohmSo you are buying themJun 17 04:38
oiaohmSo they are not free.Jun 17 04:38
ThistleWebthat if you paid for a bigger version of Vista, you get a key which enables you to install themJun 17 04:38
oiaohmSo MS is not giving them way.Jun 17 04:39
ThistleWebthey are free with more expensive versions of vista, whats the difference between versions of Vista? FeaturesJun 17 04:39
oiaohmMS is just hidding the fact you are buying them.Jun 17 04:39
ThistleWebfeatures and functionsJun 17 04:39
ThistleWebif those need installed separately, so be it, buying that version enables you to install themJun 17 04:40
oiaohmThe percentage of the higher price is paying for the more applications and features you can install.Jun 17 04:40
oiaohmSo not free.Jun 17 04:40
oiaohmIt never was free.Jun 17 04:41
oiaohmIts just a myth MS has managed to make people believe.Jun 17 04:41
ThistleWebwhich means there's only one legit version of VistaJun 17 04:41
ThistleWebeverything else is bundles of softwareJun 17 04:41
oiaohmYep.Jun 17 04:41
fewaThistleWeb, its called tyingJun 17 04:42
fewaand its illegalJun 17 04:42
ThistleWebI know all this, I'm pointing out a counter argument people will use when reading that articleJun 17 04:42
oiaohmAnd its a dead man walking arguement.Jun 17 04:43
oiaohmMS created the myth so people would not wake up its tying.Jun 17 04:43
fewathey also tye with computers so people think windows is freeJun 17 04:49
ThistleWebfewa: yeah that's a lot more easy to show people, and impossible to counterJun 17 04:50
fewajust tell them their computer would have cost what $70 less without windowsJun 17 04:50
ThistleWebthe whole "if we allow PCs to be sold without an OS, people will just pirate Windows" has been played to death and is as bogus as it was years agoJun 17 04:50
oiaohmParticularly when companies like dell bundle crapware to offset the complete cost of windows.Jun 17 04:51
oiaohmYep a Dell machine is 25 dollars more without windows.Jun 17 04:51
ThistleWeboiaohm: yepJun 17 04:51
fewa 17 04:51
oiaohmLinux does not have enough cost offseting crap to win.Jun 17 04:51
oiaohmYetJun 17 04:52
fewadell mini has yahoo all over itJun 17 04:52
ThistleWebLinux also has the disadvantage (from the vendors perspective) of not being able to sell anti-virus, photo suites etc along with it and take a cut off of each app, or the repeat value of a repair when the PC is hosedJun 17 04:53
fewaThistleWeb, Linux is not immune from any of thatJun 17 04:54
oiaohmanti-virus bit is being worked on.Jun 17 04:54
fewain fact, its much easier to do whatever you wantJun 17 04:54
fewawell yeah, anybody who buys a linux anti-virus is stupidJun 17 04:54
ThistleWebwhen your average Linux distro comes with a host of software already pre-installed like OpenOffice, Gimp etc it's hard to sell them somethingJun 17 04:54
fewathe anti-virus companies will probably start subsidizing viruses to get the market goingJun 17 04:54
neighborleeoiaohm, well I basically meant ..closed source but at least great support overall for foss...until some  better driver is here anywayJun 17 04:54
oiaohmAnti-virus companies are working on adding realtime scanning support to Linux kernel.Jun 17 04:54
fewaoiaohm, stupidJun 17 04:55
fewamaybe release a module, but dont put that shit in the kernelJun 17 04:55
oiaohmBut some companies have company policies that all computers must run real-time scanning fewa.Jun 17 04:55
fewait dumbJun 17 04:55
oiaohmHang over effects from windows.Jun 17 04:55
fewajust require all executables to be signedJun 17 04:55
oiaohmWe know it dumb.Jun 17 04:55
fewathat actually adds some securityJun 17 04:55
ThistleWebthey could of course take something like Ubuntu and strip out stuff so they can sell it, but I don't think they'd retain a good customer relationship when the customer finds they paid for something they could have just ticked and installed in Synaptic for freeJun 17 04:56
fewanot much, because of scripting languages, but still a littleJun 17 04:56
oiaohmSame realtime scanning interface can be used to do kernel independant executable signing  fewaJun 17 04:56
oiaohmIts not useless tech for Linux kernel.Jun 17 04:56
fewasecuirty after the fact is uselessJun 17 04:57
fewaits completely brokenJun 17 04:57
oiaohmWorking real time monitoring of filesystem has many uses.Jun 17 04:57
oiaohmAnti-virus companies first wanted to put in a hook just for anti-virus.Jun 17 04:57
oiaohmThat got shot down for being insane.Jun 17 04:58
fewaanti-virus companies like a insecure OS, with large after-the-fact f"fixes"Jun 17 04:58
ThistleWebpeople are trained on Windows, they've been trained to need an AV appJun 17 04:58
oiaohmNow end result will be Linux machines sold with anti-virus software.Jun 17 04:58
ThistleWebin some cases they wont move to an OS without one, even if you tell them it aint neededJun 17 04:58
oiaohmSo make Linux more profitable for OEM's.Jun 17 04:58
fewabut the linux security  model is not brokenJun 17 04:58
fewathere is no needJun 17 04:58
oiaohmI know there is no need.Jun 17 04:59
ThistleWebso they will buy it, even if it offers protection from a non-existant threatJun 17 04:59
oiaohmIts not like a person need a trail version of MS office either fewaJun 17 04:59
ThistleWebsad but trueJun 17 04:59
fewabut i wont, so i dont care, please keep that crap out of my kernelJun 17 04:59
fewainstead real security likr apparmor etcJun 17 05:00
ThistleWebMicrosoft have done some things well, but not things you'd be proud of; like training people to be afraid of their PCsJun 17 05:00
oiaohmIt also can be used for indexing services fewa.Jun 17 05:00
oiaohmAnti-virus will stay userspace and removeable.Jun 17 05:00
fewawe have inotify for a reasonJun 17 05:00
oiaohmCleanly.Jun 17 05:00
oiaohminotify and dnotify conflit with each other.Jun 17 05:00
fewadnotify is deprecatedJun 17 05:00
oiaohmWhat the anti-virus guys are fixing.Jun 17 05:00
oiaohmdnotify can do features inotify cannot.Jun 17 05:01
oiaohmNew system will basically replace both.Jun 17 05:01
oiaohmSo we will have one that works.Jun 17 05:01
fewaMicrosoft wants to turn themselves into priestsJun 17 05:01
fewacreate an insuure OS so they can then tell people what the yneed to fix the problems Microsoft createdJun 17 05:02
oiaohmIf the antivirus companies want to do the work to fix up the inotify and dnotify problems I will leave it to them.Jun 17 05:02
oiaohmYou just have to except some time in the feature Linux machines will ship with some crap that we will have to remove.Jun 17 05:03
oiaohmJust to improve OEM's bottom lines.Jun 17 05:04
fewaor you can just use a distro CDJun 17 05:04
fewajust like people do with windowsJun 17 05:04
fewareplace shitty EEE pc soft, etcJun 17 05:05
oiaohmThat is still getting rid of the crap.Jun 17 05:05
fewaits differnt howeverJun 17 05:05
oiaohmJust the brute force version of uninstall.Jun 17 05:05
oiaohmIs the result not the same you removed it fewaJun 17 05:05
fewainstall from scratch means you know where it came from, MD5 etcJun 17 05:05
oiaohmIe you no longer have the problem stuff.Jun 17 05:06
fewa^^^Jun 17 05:06
*DaemonMDV ( has joined #boycottnovellJun 17 05:07
oiaohmIts exaclty like me imaging dell machines on turn up.Jun 17 05:07
DaemonMDVnow I've ended up with Mono in Wine tooJun 17 05:07
oiaohmBoss asked why after he saw that it was cheeper that way it was very much that is stupid.Jun 17 05:07
DaemonMDVto run an MP3 optimizer utilityJun 17 05:07
DaemonMDVuggghJun 17 05:07
fewaDaemonMDV, you dont need to "optimize"Jun 17 05:08
fewayour a codec ricerJun 17 05:08
DaemonMDVWinMP3PackerJun 17 05:08
oiaohmExactly how do you optimize a mp3.Jun 17 05:08
DaemonMDVit just sorts out the frames and compresses them more efficientlyJun 17 05:08
DaemonMDVdoesn't damage the fileJun 17 05:08
DaemonMDVI've noticed anywhere from 4-6% file size reduction on VBR 0 LAMEJun 17 05:09
DaemonMDVwhich is worth running them through thatJun 17 05:09
DaemonMDVit's another 20-30 albums on my player for "free"Jun 17 05:10
oiaohmOk how many days are you aim at having on your player DaemonMDVJun 17 05:11
DaemonMDVheheJun 17 05:11
DaemonMDVstorage is cheap, not freeJun 17 05:11
ThistleWebhe don't actually use it, he jas a coding fetishJun 17 05:12
ThistleWebit's the coding that countsJun 17 05:12
DaemonMDV 17 05:38
DaemonMDVthere you goJun 17 05:38
DaemonMDV:PJun 17 05:38
DaemonMDVvinyl rips take about 4 times the space of CD rips in WAV or FLACJun 17 05:39
DaemonMDVit's pretty wickedJun 17 05:39
twitterM$ fan, Preston Gralla, thinks M$ is being greedy with Vista 7 pricing and that the market will be handed to GNU/Linux because XP is not a modern OS 17 05:40
DaemonMDVCD audio is already heavily compressedJun 17 05:41
twitterM$ has obviously retarded the entire netbook marketJun 17 05:41
DaemonMDVthat's what makes reading those "Stereophile" articles so damned funnyJun 17 05:41
twitterbut they won't be able to keep it up.Jun 17 05:41
DaemonMDVit's always people who listen to shittty recordings from the 60s that claim to be able to tell the CD from the recordJun 17 05:42
twitterfat cat Maddoff to escape punishment? 17 05:43
*DaemonMDV has no idea why they're trying to sell Disturbed on vinyl recordsJun 17 05:43
DaemonMDVdo they think my generation gives a flying fuck?Jun 17 05:43
fewaDaemonMDV, you obviously doJun 17 05:43
DaemonMDVdo they think that anyone born after 1970 does?Jun 17 05:44
fewayouJun 17 05:44
fewaor you wouldnt be talking about itJun 17 05:44
twitterspending the rest of his life in prison, the SEC slaps his wristJun 17 05:44
DaemonMDVOK I'll rephraseJun 17 05:44
DaemonMDVWhy would anyone pay $43 for a vinyl album of Disturbed?Jun 17 05:44
fewatwitter, WTFJun 17 05:44
ThistleWebMaddoff could always be employed by the FCC as someone who knows how to game the system, so therefor he can spot others who try itJun 17 05:45
twitterSEC, Secure Equities CrimeJun 17 05:45
fewahe defrauded $65, he belongs in jailJun 17 05:45
fewa*$65 billionJun 17 05:45
fewaheheJun 17 05:45
DaemonMDVBarnard Madoff is just a greedy JewJun 17 05:45
ThistleWebgiven a system which works on favours and money, who knowsJun 17 05:45
DaemonMDVand small potatoes compared to half the shit going on in this countryJun 17 05:45
fewaDaemonMDV, tale your racism somewhere elseJun 17 05:46
fewa*takeJun 17 05:46
DaemonMDVI think he deserves all the moneyJun 17 05:46
DaemonMDVand to go freeJun 17 05:46
DaemonMDVhe obviously earned itJun 17 05:46
ThistleWebDaemonMDV: what does him being Jewish have to do with anything?Jun 17 05:46
twitterGee, do you think text messages are a rip-off?,0,7157342.storyJun 17 05:46
DaemonMDVMadoff earned ever ycentJun 17 05:46
DaemonMDVhis "victims" are the criminalsJun 17 05:46
DaemonMDVcriminally stupidJun 17 05:46
twitter->"[US] Justice Department to scrutinize competitiveness in the cellphone industry, pointing to a 100% increase in some text messaging charges by four companies that control most of the market"Jun 17 05:47
twitterabout timeJun 17 05:47
DaemonMDVTwitter: I guarantee if you give me a million dollars no questions asked I'll double itJun 17 05:47
DaemonMDVjust don't ask howJun 17 05:47
DaemonMDVI'll be off helping my next sucke.....errrr customer nowJun 17 05:48
DaemonMDVbrbJun 17 05:48
DaemonMDV:PJun 17 05:48
DaemonMDVobviously Madoff's victims were either greedy and didn't care that there was something fishy going onJun 17 05:56
DaemonMDVor not the sharpest tools in the shedJun 17 05:56
DaemonMDVnot the brightest crayons in the boxJun 17 05:56
DaemonMDVa few fries short of a happy mealJun 17 05:56
DaemonMDV:)Jun 17 05:56
DaemonMDVany financial advisor will tell you that there's no such thing as a "guaranteed" return on investmentJun 17 05:57
DaemonMDVso that alone should have red flagged the whole fucking thingJun 17 05:57
DaemonMDVeveryone that didn't deserve to be cheated would have walked away at that pointJun 17 05:57
Omar871Hi allJun 17 05:59
Omar871Guys, is Wingware open source?Jun 17 06:04
*Omar871 has quit ("Leaving.")Jun 17 06:09
twitterhmmm, don't know wingware.Jun 17 06:11
twitterNo privacy in UK blogging. 17 06:12
DaemonMDVI think out of my entire collection, my favorite still has to be the Alternative PolkaJun 17 06:12
DaemonMDVby Weird AlJun 17 06:12
DaemonMDV 17 06:12
twitterjudge says bloggers should not expect to remain anonymous because “blogging is essentially a public rather than a private activity”.Jun 17 06:12
twitterniceJun 17 06:12
twitterby that reasoning, there is no anonymous contribution to public life.Jun 17 06:13
fewaactually there are guaranteed returns on investmentJun 17 06:14
fewathats what most investments areJun 17 06:14
DaemonMDVno there aren'tJun 17 06:14
DaemonMDVno it's notJun 17 06:14
fewait just matters who you are investing inJun 17 06:14
fewa5% savings rate is a guaranteed return on investmentJun 17 06:15
fewai mean a CDJun 17 06:15
DaemonMDVonce someone else has your money anything can happen to itJun 17 06:15
fewayeah, but its guaranteedJun 17 06:15
DaemonMDVgovernment debt is the "most guaranteed"Jun 17 06:15
fewajust matters who is guaranting itJun 17 06:15
DaemonMDVbut that doesn't help since they steal back erverything you make in interest with inflationJun 17 06:15
DaemonMDVand moreJun 17 06:15
fewawho you can sue if they dont have the moneyJun 17 06:15
DaemonMDVs oyou're basically paying them to loan them your moneyJun 17 06:15
fewaits still a guaranteeJun 17 06:16
DaemonMDVa guarantee that you'll have less moneyJun 17 06:16
DaemonMDVthan you gave themJun 17 06:16
DaemonMDVyay!Jun 17 06:16
fewanoJun 17 06:16
DaemonMDVhow can you lsoe?Jun 17 06:16
fewaa empty guarantee that is fraud because they are also lyingJun 17 06:16
DaemonMDV*loseJun 17 06:16
fewabut the guarantee part is not a lieJun 17 06:16
fewaas they are responsible to get you your returnsJun 17 06:16
fewathat they promisedJun 17 06:16
fewathey just dont have the moneyJun 17 06:16
DaemonMDVyou lose more money by buying government bonds than you get in interestJun 17 06:16
fewaDaemonMDV, no you dontJun 17 06:17
DaemonMDVif inflation goes up 6% that year and you made 2% on interestJun 17 06:17
fewaoh yeahJun 17 06:17
DaemonMDVyou're behind quite a bitJun 17 06:17
fewai didnt read the whole sentenceJun 17 06:17
fewaits about inflation rateJun 17 06:17
fewabut right now money is way too cheapJun 17 06:17
fewaway, way too cheapJun 17 06:17
DaemonMDVmoney is not worth the paper it's printed onJun 17 06:17
DaemonMDVliterallyJun 17 06:17
DaemonMDVit's only worth whatever the federal reserve says it is worthJun 17 06:18
DaemonMDVand it's only money cause that's the lawJun 17 06:18
DaemonMDVnot exactly a solid foundationJun 17 06:18
DaemonMDVso don't worry, every time you get ahead, they'll print more money and steal it all back from youJun 17 06:19
DaemonMDVbut it looks like you have the same amountJun 17 06:19
DaemonMDVif you can believe it, the Playstation 3's debut price was not actually the most expensive gaming console everJun 17 06:21
DaemonMDVin October 1977, the Atari 2600 cost $199 US dollarsJun 17 06:21
DaemonMDVwhich is $699.21 in 2008 dollarsJun 17 06:21
DaemonMDV$3.51 today is $1 in 1977Jun 17 06:22
DaemonMDVthat means that currency is worth 3.5 times lessJun 17 06:22
DaemonMDVthan it was 22 years agoJun 17 06:23
DaemonMDV$21.52 in todays money is $1 in 1913Jun 17 06:24
DaemonMDVwhen the Federal Reserve was installedJun 17 06:24
DaemonMDVso ever since they debased the currency, that's how much wealth the banks have stolen from AmericansJun 17 06:24
DaemonMDVbut in 1813 to 1913 inflation only doubledJun 17 06:25
DaemonMDVthat was before the central bankJun 17 06:25
DaemonMDVin that hundred years with no Fed, inflation doubledJun 17 06:26
DaemonMDVin the 100 years since the Fed, inflation will have been more like 2300%Jun 17 06:26
DaemonMDVthat shows you how the central bank has eaten away at America like a cancerJun 17 06:26
DaemonMDVevery politician that has threatened them has either had an "unfortunate accident"Jun 17 06:27
DaemonMDVor bought offJun 17 06:27
DaemonMDVso Bernie Madoff is like an amateur compared to these peopleJun 17 06:28
DaemonMDVif we're sending him to prison, we need to send all the bankers to Federal Pound-Me-In-The-Ass prison tooJun 17 06:28
neighborleeI tend to think of prison much the same way as was depicted in 'Kpac'...I realize we're not there 'yet' but the idea is humane....someone commits a crime..who would in their right mind do it knowing what awaits them, and the harm it does the families me thats just insane..we protect insanity because well stuff happens..society isn't perfect and we can't demand perfection when atm NO ONE can throw the 'first sJun 17 06:40
neighborleetone' ...else we are no better imho than those of witch trials...without compassion what is left o_0Jun 17 06:40
neighborleekpaxJun 17 06:40
neighborleeo_0-Jun 17 06:40
neighborleeanyway-Jun 17 06:40
neighborlee:)Jun 17 06:40
DaemonMDVwe need to give the banksters death by garbage compacterJun 17 06:41
DaemonMDVif you ask meJun 17 06:41
neighborleeI know you dont mean thatJun 17 06:41
DaemonMDVoh but I doJun 17 06:41
neighborleeanger makes us ...well you know..Jun 17 06:41
DaemonMDVcrush them slowlyJun 17 06:41
DaemonMDVso I can hear them screamJun 17 06:41
DaemonMDV:DJun 17 06:41
neighborleeheheJun 17 06:41
neighborleehey venting is good..keep it out rather than in where it does harm ;))..well in theory anyway;))Jun 17 06:41
*DaemonMDV wonders why FAAC gives such abysmal resultsJun 17 06:42
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DaemonMDVthey could port over gsypychoJun 17 06:42
DaemonMDVit is LGPL licensedJun 17 06:42
fewawhy isnt there a ALGPL licence?Jun 17 06:43
DaemonMDVa what?Jun 17 06:43
neighborleewth ? ;)Jun 17 06:43
DaemonMDVmaybe I'm just used to hearing MP3 after 14 years of itJun 17 06:44
neighborleemeaning what..dont like any other format ? ;))Jun 17 06:44
fewavorbis is superiorJun 17 06:44
DaemonMDVmeh, MP4 is supposed to be better, and of course I know it all depends on how good the encoder isJun 17 06:45
DaemonMDVbut I think MP4 is more to get people using something that will stay patented longerJun 17 06:45
DaemonMDVthan it is an upgradeJun 17 06:45
DaemonMDVcause MP3 really isn't all that badJun 17 06:45
fewaie vorbisJun 17 06:45
neighborleefewa, im counting on it...foss is the great equaliserJun 17 06:45
DaemonMDVVorbis isn't all that greatJun 17 06:45
fewaand vorbis is a great codecJun 17 06:45
DaemonMDVI wasn't really impressedJun 17 06:45
fewacapable of super low data ratesJun 17 06:45
DaemonMDVyou have to allocate more bits to the stream to compensate for how badly it assigns themJun 17 06:46
DaemonMDVthen you end up with bigger filesJun 17 06:46
fewaeither mp3 or vorbisJun 17 06:46
DaemonMDVVorbis has never really caught up to LAMEJun 17 06:46
DaemonMDVand it seems like the only thing that even gets it close is AoTuvJun 17 06:46
neighborleecan you guys really tell the difference on ogg files that weren't converted ?Jun 17 06:46
DaemonMDVand Xiph is so god damned slow at backporting from themJun 17 06:46
DaemonMDV:)Jun 17 06:47
neighborleeI mean human ear shouldn't be able to I hear ?Jun 17 06:47
neighborlee<har>Jun 17 06:47
neighborlee:)Jun 17 06:47
fewaneighborlee, watch that H.264+mp3 vs theora+vorbis demoJun 17 06:47
fewafrom xiphJun 17 06:47
neighborleehm kk thx I shallJun 17 06:47
DaemonMDVI'm not real impressed with Xiph.orgJun 17 06:47
DaemonMDVthe only one of their format's I recommend is FLAC if you need a lossless copy of somethingJun 17 06:48
DaemonMDVand even that is only more because the rest have licenses that suck or only work well on Windows or MacJun 17 06:48
DaemonMDVor have a really shoddy decoding process that takes all kinds of CPUJun 17 06:48
neighborleei'd have to do a filesize vs quality comparisonJun 17 06:48
neighborleebut then also have a portable device that supports the playbackJun 17 06:48
neighborleewe're lucky we have ogg as it is ;)Jun 17 06:48
DaemonMDVthere's a lack of good lossless formats, and FLAC jsut happens to be the one that works well enough on all countsJun 17 06:49
DaemonMDVits compression level is kind of lackingJun 17 06:49
DaemonMDVbut oh wellJun 17 06:49
fewa 17 06:49
DaemonMDVWMA Lossless can compress a lot furtherJun 17 06:49
neighborleethxJun 17 06:50
DaemonMDVbut there's like no tools to work with those files on LinuxJun 17 06:50
DaemonMDVthe most you'll be able to do is play them backJun 17 06:50
fewaWMA is crapJun 17 06:50
DaemonMDVWMA lossless isn't badJun 17 06:50
fewai rather use a patented but declared codec then one where there are only binary codecsJun 17 06:50
DaemonMDVjust in licensingJun 17 06:50
DaemonMDVwell, technically you could transcode WMA Lossless to something else on LinuxJun 17 06:51
fewaand where "wma" can mean anythingJun 17 06:51
DaemonMDVbut you'd need VLC to do it for youJun 17 06:51
fewathey will not hesitate to version it and call it the same thingJun 17 06:51
DaemonMDVthe worst lossless format I've tried is Monkey's AudioJun 17 06:51
DaemonMDV(APE)Jun 17 06:51
DaemonMDVit's fine as long as you don't expect any kind of portable support, ever, and you feel like waiting 5 seconds every time you try to seekJun 17 06:52
neighborleewell been real as usual gents and gals if any..powering down to save energy etc...TTYL and have fun o_0Jun 17 06:53
*neighborlee has quit ("Leaving")Jun 17 06:53
DaemonMDVOpenSuse has apparently moved to 8 month releases at some point?Jun 17 07:15
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] Linux-based Autonomous RoboCar from Pino Creator, 17 07:47
schestowitzPopup blocker arrives in Chromium! 17 07:59
ThistleWebschestowitz: whoohoo, a step closer to being functional in todays interwebsJun 17 08:01
ThistleWebI quite like the look of Chromium but I'll wait until it has a few more key features before using itJun 17 08:02
schestowitzThat stupid troll (Fink) is causing problems: 17 08:06
schestowitzAnd they try to blame me.Jun 17 08:06
schestowitzIt's like when a band gets blamed because some dude who listens to their music shoots a class.Jun 17 08:06
schestowitzThistleWeb: for me, well.... yesterday I 'fixed' Firefox, finallyJun 17 08:07
schestowitzI changed its memory limitsJun 17 08:07
ThistleWebhmmJun 17 08:07
schestowitzFedora 9 approaches end-of-life 17 08:07
*Omar87 ( has joined #boycottnovellJun 17 08:08
ThistleWebI've been flirting with Opera again over the last few hours as Firefox has some quirky stuff that keeps making me look at other alternativesJun 17 08:08
ThistleWebmaybe clipping it's wings a bit would help on that scoreJun 17 08:08
Omar87ThistleWeb: The other alternative is Opera? :DJun 17 08:08
ThistleWebI get annoyed when right clicking on a link in Firefox it decides I wanted to email the link and opens up Thunderbird, or decides I wanted to evoce DownEmAllJun 17 08:09
ThistleWebit happens frequently enough to be annoyingJun 17 08:10
ThistleWebtotally at random tooJun 17 08:10
ThistleWebsometimes it just opens it in a new tab (which is what I want) or sometimes in a new window which is what I dont wantJun 17 08:10
Omar87ThistleWeb: "The only thing I wish Opera would reveal is a UI that doesn't make me gag." ~Chris Pirillo.Jun 17 08:11
ThistleWebbut clipping it's memory would help sort one issue I guessJun 17 08:11
ThistleWebyeah Operas's UI is very differentJun 17 08:11
ThistleWebit took me a while to feel reasonably comfy with itJun 17 08:11
ThistleWebto the point where I can atcutally use itJun 17 08:11
Omar87ThistleWeb: Yeah, your're right about the right-clicking issue. It sucks.Jun 17 08:12
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[omar_s_hafez] Is desperately looking for experienced Django developers he can work with, learn from.. etc.. -_-Jun 17 08:12
ThistleWebI still prefer the Firefox UI though, and the Firefox addonsJun 17 08:12
ThistleWebthat's why I'm curious about a WebKit version of Firefox, to see if it fixes any of these issuesJun 17 08:12
Omar87ThistleWeb: Yeah. Plus, last time I tried Opera, it was just as heavy if not more.Jun 17 08:13
ThistleWebOpera seems to load pages quicker WITH ads than Firefox does in blocking themJun 17 08:13
Omar87ThistleWeb: Plus, don't forget that Fire 3.5 is on it's way. :)Jun 17 08:13
Omar87Firefox**Jun 17 08:13
ThistleWebyeah, Opera and Firefox are about the same in RAMJun 17 08:13
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schestowitzOn Fedora 11 installation < >Jun 17 08:14
Omar87ThistleWeb: However, some people say that it's mainly the Addons that make Firefix seem pretty heavy.Jun 17 08:14
ThistleWebOmar87: yeah addons are tempting to put a lot on, and the more you add, the slower it starts, the more ram you useJun 17 08:14
ThistleWebthe more unstable it becomes I'd guessJun 17 08:15
ThistleWebthe right click wouldnt try to assume Downemall if that addon wasn't installedJun 17 08:15
Omar87schestowitz: Fedora is an amazing distro, except that, its complicated security settings make me wanna snap my laptop into two equal pieces.Jun 17 08:15
Omar87ThistleWeb: Exactly.Jun 17 08:15
ThistleWebOmar87: why equal peices? ain't snapping it in half doing the job by itself without having to measure the breaking point? :PJun 17 08:16
Omar87ThistleWeb: So, basically all you need to do is choose a couple addons that you use very often, and remove the rest.Jun 17 08:16
Omar87ThistleWeb: LOL. :)Jun 17 08:17
ThistleWebI've used Firefox for so long that I really wanna stick with it, but the annoyances seem to be far too randomJun 17 08:17
ThistleWebit's doing enough to keep me looking for alternatesJun 17 08:17
ThistleWebif you can get your mind around the Opera UI it's a damn nice browserJun 17 08:18
ThistleWebvery quickJun 17 08:18
Omar87ThistleWeb: Yeah, sometimes it really gets on my nerve too. But that's not very critical ya know. :)Jun 17 08:18
oiaohmHappyness should return with firefox 4.0Jun 17 08:18
oiaohmJust happens to be a long way off.Jun 17 08:18
ThistleWebbesides, Firefox themes with my GTK themeJun 17 08:18
Omar87oiaohm: Agreed.Jun 17 08:18
ThistleWebOpera is QT and acts aloneJun 17 08:18
ThistleWeball my QT stuff look like drag queens in a beauty contestJun 17 08:19
ThistleWebcomplete with beardsJun 17 08:19
ThistleWebone area which don't help Opera much is the plugins, they're mostly time wasting, useless pluginsJun 17 08:20
ThistleWeblast time I flicked through I couldn't find any actual useful onesJun 17 08:20
ThistleWebcompared with Mozilla's plugins, it's night and dayJun 17 08:21
oiaohmFirefox lot of its problems come from its extentions.Jun 17 08:21
oiaohmReason why process splitting in 4.0 firefox will make a lot of problems disappear.Jun 17 08:21
ThistleWeboiaohm: yep, the idea being its a basic browser that you add functions you need via addonsJun 17 08:21
DaemonMDVyeah, Opera is a good program but unfortunately it uses QTJun 17 08:22
DaemonMDVwhich doesn't feel rightJun 17 08:22
Omar87Guys, how do I make use of this tremendous amount of followers on twitter? I mean what's a good strategy to make a huge audience out of them?Jun 17 08:22
*libervisco has quit (Read error: 60 (Operation timed out))Jun 17 08:22
ThistleWebOmar87: start by talking to them, they won't bite.....unless you've gotten them from a fetish site fan clubJun 17 08:22
Omar87lol! :DJun 17 08:23
ThistleWebI'm thinking that with browsers, you just need to think about what you need it to doJun 17 08:23
ThistleWebFirefox is sooooo tempting to go adding lots of addons, that you may never useJun 17 08:24
oiaohmAnd all that goes into a single process.Jun 17 08:24
oiaohmTaht if any part kick the bucket everything does.Jun 17 08:24
ThistleWebI guess another solution would be to have several different Firefox profiles for different uses, each with a different set of addons installedJun 17 08:24
oiaohmOnly real solution is break addons out into there own process.Jun 17 08:25
oiaohmSo each one can kick the bucket without taking the interface down.Jun 17 08:25
DaemonMDVFirefox for Linux is just so damned slowJun 17 08:25
DaemonMDVuggghJun 17 08:25
DaemonMDVeverything else blows right past itJun 17 08:25
schestowitzLet's hope Josselin Mouette doesn't come back to curseJun 17 08:25
DaemonMDVit's mainly limitations in Gecko that are holding Epiphany backJun 17 08:26
schestowitzEeebuntu vs Ubuntu < > <--interestingJun 17 08:26
oiaohmbasically everything else uses opengl to avoid X11 issues DaemonMDV.Jun 17 08:26
DaemonMDVfrom what I understandJun 17 08:26
oiaohmGecko does not use opengl rendering.Jun 17 08:26
*libervisco ( has joined #boycottnovellJun 17 08:26
oiaohmEither improve X11 or add opengl option to gecko.Jun 17 08:26
oiaohmBoth will have basically the same effect.Jun 17 08:26
DaemonMDVGecko does not perform well on Linux, but everything uses it because up til now there's been a real shortage of rendering engines under free licenses worth usingJun 17 08:27
DaemonMDVWebkit kicks Gecko's ass thoughJun 17 08:27
oiaohmwebkit uses opengl.Jun 17 08:27
DaemonMDVso here's hoping GNOME can ditch Gecko and distros can ditch Firefox dependenciesJun 17 08:27
schestowitz*LOL* The "Vista 7" meme is spreading some more...Jun 17 08:27
oiaohmReally X11 need to be fixed.Jun 17 08:27
schestowitz"I am using Vista, 7, and Ubuntu 9.04. " 17 08:27
schestowitzShould be I am using Vista 7, and Ubuntu 9.04. "Jun 17 08:28
schestowitzin USENET the "Vista 7" phrase caught on betterJun 17 08:28
DaemonMDVFirefox hasn't made Linux a priority for a whileJun 17 08:28
DaemonMDVit just still so happens to "work" on LinuxJun 17 08:29
DaemonMDVbut it's clear that Mozilla is not the way forward if they keep up like thisJun 17 08:29
Omar87ThistleWeb: Yeah, but I'm not gonna send a direct message to each one them, I'll just randomly pick a bunch of them. :)Jun 17 08:29
oiaohmLittle point if you know everything that is broken sometimes it simpler to wait for things to get repaired DaemonMDVJun 17 08:29
DaemonMDVwell, distros use Firefox like a pogJun 17 08:30
DaemonMDVeven though there's better stuff out thereJun 17 08:30
DaemonMDV"Hey, Windows users, you can have Firefox"Jun 17 08:30
DaemonMDV"nyaaaaaaah!"Jun 17 08:30
oiaohmYou saw the improvement just from the kernel fix DaemonMDVJun 17 08:30
DaemonMDVyeah, Linux 2.6.30 also breaks my DVD playbackJun 17 08:31
DaemonMDVso it's not like I can use itJun 17 08:31
schestowitzOmar87: "The ICT Association in Jordan (int@j) in corporation with Redhat and Savvytek 'Red Hat Premier Business Partner in the Region' and with support from the USAID-funded SABEQ Program conducted an Open Source Software Workshop titled 'Achieving faster growth and success while reducing spending' on Monday June 15th, 2009 at the Landmark hotel in Amman." 17 08:31
schestowitzThat's 2 days agoJun 17 08:31
DaemonMDVLinux has been adding bugs faster than they've been getting fixed for quite some time nowJun 17 08:32
oiaohmI got vlc and others working.   Requires new libasound.Jun 17 08:32
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] 2.2million children to own laptops by 2012 < > Probably running FedoraJun 17 08:32
DaemonMDVit's what happens with anything that has creeping featurismJun 17 08:32
oiaohmRemoval of locks kicked a few thing hard.Jun 17 08:32
DaemonMDVit's why I flat out won't usually use new kernel releasesJun 17 08:32
DaemonMDVI wait for the .1 or .2 before I go aheadJun 17 08:33
oiaohmThis case its not the kernel at faultJun 17 08:33
oiaohmIts the support libs.Jun 17 08:33
ThistleWebI'm starting to be dubious about Firefox's security too after the ABP / NoScript issue, then the Microsoft .net Framework addonJun 17 08:33
Omar87schestowitz: Yes! Savvytek, This is like Red Hat's longest metal arm in the Middle East. They offer everything. Support, training, Red Hat Certifications.. etc:)Jun 17 08:33
Omar87etc.*Jun 17 08:33
MinceRschestowitz: might also want to try "vista sp7" :>Jun 17 08:34
Omar87schestowitz: That's cool!Jun 17 08:34
ThistleWebthe fact that devs can modify other addons, or can install addons via other routes without permission does raise a security eyebrowJun 17 08:34
oiaohmEarly transision always has a few bumps DaemonMDVJun 17 08:34
DaemonMDVthings in the kernel generally don't start settling down til a couple months after the one in that series was releasedJun 17 08:34
DaemonMDV2.6.29 has an awful lot of bugsJun 17 08:34
DaemonMDVthat's just now starting to get betterJun 17 08:35
oiaohm2.6.29 had a lot of transitional code in it.Jun 17 08:35
oiaohmYes that does kinda hurt.Jun 17 08:35
oiaohmThings will settle down over the next few kernel releases.   Most of the branch merge of RT and Main has been done.Jun 17 08:36
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] Quietly enough, GNU/Linux enters Indian education. 17 08:37
ThistleWebI sometimes think the best way for FOSS to get into institutions is very quietly, replace Microsoft but don't advertise itJun 17 08:42
ThistleWebthat way Microsoft don't know to send any of their enforcers with giftsJun 17 08:43
ThistleWebsmiling thugs who want to make you an offer you can't refuseJun 17 08:43
ThistleWebthat only works when you have no M$ spies in your institution making sure you stay on-messageJun 17 08:45
ThistleWebit also does nothing to show others that FOSS is worthwhileJun 17 08:45
ThistleWebbut it would be funny for Microsoft to send the heavies in suits to school after school in an area when they don't renew their pacts, to find that each one has already switched to all FOSS and won't switch backJun 17 08:46
ThistleWeb"no thank you, we're happy with our BSD / Linux / OpenOffice solution TYVM, surprisingly we're finding it's smoother than we had with you, and it's free"Jun 17 08:47
oiaohmReally there is nothing much more on core of linux kernel on near furture that is playing with core of the OS badly.  Closest is HWPOSION.  Where Linux gains the means to detect defective ram while running and lock defective ram out from being used again.Jun 17 08:49
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-BNc/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] Analogy Explains Why "Ready for the Desktop" is FUD Pattern 17 09:22
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[_goblin] Openbytes get a reply to the 7 question. #microsoft #linux #windowsJun 17 09:32
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] "Linux opens a hole new world of freedom that Microsoft does not want you to see or even know about."Jun 17 09:37
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] Chrome Web Browser Assessed on GNU/Linux 17 09:37
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] Midori Web Browser (on GNU/Linux) Gets Tested 17 09:37
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] Firefox 3.6 To Have Self-Profiling Extension 17 09:37
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] GNU/Linux Desktop Productivity in Detail. Ignore the Tomboy bits...Jun 17 09:42
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] Review of the Latest Foresight Linux 17 09:42
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[_goblin] "IE8 - To feed or not to feed?" #microsoft #windows #vista #linuxJun 17 09:42
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] Fedora 11: "I can now safely proclaim that this latest release is nothing short of remarkable." 17 09:47
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] More GNU/Linux Coming to Jordan? 17 09:52
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] Reviews of Ubuntu Satanic Edition 666.6 and Linux Mint 7.0 17 09:52
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] Ubuntu Linux is Added to Open Source Calatog 17 09:57
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] Ubuntu GNU/Linux Adds Partnerships 17 09:57
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] Editor of Many GNU/Linux Sites Moves to PCLinuxOS 17 10:02
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] New Elive and Enlightenment Are Released 17 10:02
MinceRlol @ dinner tableJun 17 10:02
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] Introducing BaitNSwitch GNU/Linux 17 10:12
DaemonMDV"And to comply with Linux licensing, we'll also offer a free, community edition of our Pricey Linux known as BaitNSwitch Linux."Jun 17 10:16
DaemonMDVactually, there's no such requirementJun 17 10:16
DaemonMDVno Linux company is required to make a free (of charge) version of their distributionJun 17 10:17
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] Linux-based Autonomous RoboCar from Pino Creator 17 10:17
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[trmanco] Gnote 0.5.0 has been released: 17 10:17
fewayeah they can just download centosJun 17 10:17
fewathats what the article is aboutJun 17 10:17
DaemonMDVAll they have to do is provide source code, and only of the GPL'd componentsJun 17 10:17
DaemonMDVso they don't even have to provide source for the entire distributionJun 17 10:17
DaemonMDVand they don't have to make the source available to everyoneJun 17 10:18
fewabut they cant prohibit redistrobutionJun 17 10:18
DaemonMDVonly the people that received the binariesJun 17 10:18
fewaby anyone they give it toJun 17 10:18
fewaincluding the binariesJun 17 10:18
DaemonMDVso if Red Hat wanted to be pricks, they could require their customers to sign in to download their source RPMsJun 17 10:18
fewabut once someone downloads a rpm from red hat they can then redistrobute it to anyoneJun 17 10:19
fewawithout asking red hatJun 17 10:19
DaemonMDVrightJun 17 10:19
fewathats freedom 2, the freedom to help your neighborJun 17 10:19
DaemonMDVbut there's no requirement for them to have a free version (like Fedora) or to make their source repo available to everyoneJun 17 10:19
DaemonMDVthey just do thatJun 17 10:20
fewabut once one person buys it they can distrobute it to anyoneJun 17 10:20
DaemonMDVright, but it would kind of put a crimp on the CentOS people if they had to have a Red Hat Network subscription to get the source RPMs in the first placeJun 17 10:20
fewahow?Jun 17 10:21
DaemonMDVand they've have to buy the most expensive subscription to get source RPMs for everything they useJun 17 10:21
oiaohmDaemonMDV: it just simpler that way.Jun 17 10:21
DaemonMDVbecause that's like thousands of dollars a yearJun 17 10:21
fewano it isntJun 17 10:21
DaemonMDVby the time you'd have access to all the components CentOS usesJun 17 10:21
oiaohmThere is a advantage to providing a free version.Jun 17 10:22
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] Garmin-Asus Embrace Linux/Android 17 10:22
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] Synology DS509+ NAS Runs Linux 17 10:22
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] RT @trmanco Gnote 0.5.0 has been released: 17 10:22
oiaohmAccess to public mirror system DaemonMDVJun 17 10:22
DaemonMDVyou could buy a Red Hat Desktop subscription, but then to comply with the GPL, Red Hat only has to give you the source to what's in the Desktop editionJun 17 10:22
oiaohmYou may only have to give the source DaemonMDVJun 17 10:22
oiaohmGiving the source has not stopped forking in the past.Jun 17 10:23
fewabut in addition, they cant prevent you from redistrobuting the binariesJun 17 10:23
oiaohmThey do get an advantage from what they are doing.   Access to mirror systems for updates and the like that they don't have to pay for.Jun 17 10:23
DaemonMDV 17 10:23
DaemonMDVhmmmJun 17 10:24
fewaDaemonMDV, you are seeing conflict where there isnt anyJun 17 10:24
oiaohmReleasing a free distribution is one of the ways they can meet there requirements.  Its not like doing that does not come without perks.Jun 17 10:25
DaemonMDVWell, in Mandrivas case it gives them a huge base of testers that they don't have to provide any tech support to anywayJun 17 10:26
DaemonMDVand you can't do anything with it unless you add illegal repos or buy the boxed setJun 17 10:27
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] Linux Phones Run Our Old Favourite Games 17 10:27
fewaillegal repos? what illegal?Jun 17 10:27
DaemonMDVPLF is illegalJun 17 10:27
DaemonMDVthey distribute stuff like LAME, FAAC, FAAD, etcJun 17 10:27
oiaohmLook at Mandrivas host country.Jun 17 10:28
DaemonMDVyeah, it's illegal there tooJun 17 10:28
MinceRfrance has sw patents now?Jun 17 10:28
DaemonMDVFrance is being even bigger fascist cocksuckers than most countries currentlyJun 17 10:28
DaemonMDVHADOPI?Jun 17 10:28
DaemonMDVduhJun 17 10:28
fewathats not patentsJun 17 10:28
oiaohmFrance software patents don't apply.Jun 17 10:28
MinceRit's a difficult task to be a bigger fascist cocksuckers than the usa :>Jun 17 10:29
oiaohmOk pirating software they will eat you for lunch.Jun 17 10:29
MinceRthen again, the PRC manages itJun 17 10:29
fewaAlso, make the difference between criminal and civilJun 17 10:29
fewathere is a big differenceJun 17 10:29
DaemonMDVgee, I'm sure there's a few reporters our government hasn't shot or thrown into the dungeonJun 17 10:29
DaemonMDV:)Jun 17 10:29
DaemonMDVthat's not true of most countriesJun 17 10:30
DaemonMDVwhen there's like 186 slots on the corruption index and we're nowhere near the bottom, you know there's plenty worse places than the United States out thereJun 17 10:30
DaemonMDV168 to be preciseJun 17 10:31
DaemonMDV:DJun 17 10:31
MinceR 17 10:31
DaemonMDVincluding tiesJun 17 10:31
MinceRtheir freedom of the press isn't too bad, i'll give you thatJun 17 10:31
oiaohmWhere is that index DaemonMDVJun 17 10:31
DaemonMDVit's the UN's corruption perception indexJun 17 10:31
DaemonMDVI think we're number 18Jun 17 10:31
DaemonMDVwith 1 being the least corruptJun 17 10:32
MinceRcould you link to that?Jun 17 10:32
DaemonMDVand 186 being the mostJun 17 10:32
MinceRthat's interesting tooJun 17 10:32
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] Jeremy Zawodny Turns to Linux Magazine After Yahoo! Career 17 10:32
DaemonMDVHungary is at slot 47Jun 17 10:32
DaemonMDVso they are far more corrupt than the USJun 17 10:32
DaemonMDVaccording o the UNJun 17 10:32
DaemonMDV 17 10:33
MinceRwell, dunnoJun 17 10:33
MinceRboth the usa and hungary are corrupt as hellJun 17 10:33
MinceRthe difference i see is that in the usa the corruption comes mostly from local companiesJun 17 10:33
DaemonMDVThe Zionist Regime is at 33Jun 17 10:33
DaemonMDV:DJun 17 10:33
oiaohmShould have guessed I live in a low Corruption zone.Jun 17 10:33
MinceRwe import it from the usa :>Jun 17 10:33
DaemonMDVyou're more corrupt than they areJun 17 10:33
DaemonMDVstay away, I don't want it to spreadJun 17 10:33
DaemonMDV:PJun 17 10:33
MinceRwell, don't spread it thenJun 17 10:34
MinceRalso, note that you're talking about corruption _perceptions_Jun 17 10:34
DaemonMDV 17 10:34
DaemonMDVfar from the worstJun 17 10:35
DaemonMDV:DJun 17 10:35
DaemonMDVyou notice that China and Russia are near the bottom of the bucketJun 17 10:35
DaemonMDVmost African countries are in the bucketJun 17 10:35
DaemonMDVmost all of Central and South AmericaJun 17 10:36
DaemonMDVso it's about what you'd expectJun 17 10:36
oiaohmNot all of china.Jun 17 10:37
oiaohmUSA is more bent than Hong KongJun 17 10:38
DaemonMDVHong Kong is an abnormal caseJun 17 10:39
DaemonMDVwhere the Communists don't just shoot first and that's pretty much it, just the shooting....Jun 17 10:39
DaemonMDV:DJun 17 10:39
oiaohmChina internal state is not constant across the complete country.Jun 17 10:40
DaemonMDVThe Communists are some pretty unsavory peopleJun 17 10:40
DaemonMDVthey'll just disappear anyone they don't like, unleash the army on unarmed civiliansJun 17 10:41
DaemonMDVthen blacklist media coverage about the incidentJun 17 10:41
DaemonMDVdeny itJun 17 10:41
DaemonMDVcensor it from the internetJun 17 10:41
oiaohmIts not the ideals of Communist to do any of that.Jun 17 10:42
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] Big Free Software Event Coming 17 10:42
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] British Government Keeps in Old Ages of Software That Robs Freedom 17 10:42
DaemonMDVyeah, well perhaps you could ask them to knock it offJun 17 10:42
DaemonMDVI'm sure you'll get some medals and Nobel prizesJun 17 10:42
DaemonMDV:)Jun 17 10:42
DaemonMDVstuff like thatJun 17 10:42
oiaohmIts the old say power corrupts and absolute power corrupts absolutely.Jun 17 10:42
oiaohmUSA people like linking the problems that happen because of absolute power to communist.Jun 17 10:44
DaemonMDVfunny how every communist state does all the shit China doesJun 17 10:44
DaemonMDVor worseJun 17 10:44
DaemonMDVI mean it's obviously just a coincidenceJun 17 10:45
DaemonMDVmust be why it happens every timeJun 17 10:45
DaemonMDV;)Jun 17 10:45
oiaohmSome of the affica countries are not communist but have the same problem.Jun 17 10:45
oiaohmYep not being able to vote in private with gun to head kinda stuffed vote.Jun 17 10:45
DaemonMDVNot all bad governments are Communist, but all Communist governments are badJun 17 10:45
DaemonMDV:)Jun 17 10:45
oiaohmThat also is not true.   There have been times Communist goverments have run right on the ideals and worked for a while.Jun 17 10:46
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] "Site admins have instituted a kind of forced retirement, banning "Pergamino" for sockpuppeting." 17 10:47
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] The Copyright Cartel Had New Plans for DRM Such conspiracies should be illegal.Jun 17 10:47
DaemonMDVhmmmJun 17 10:47
oiaohmCommunist goverments just appear to have faster deterieration rates non DaemonMDVJun 17 10:47
DaemonMDVAudacious for Linux lets you export to WMAJun 17 10:47
DaemonMDVerrrJun 17 10:48
DaemonMDVAudacityJun 17 10:48
DaemonMDV:pJun 17 10:48
oiaohmIt was funny reciently one of our major crime families is no more.   They basically killed all themselves out.Jun 17 10:49
oiaohmYes themselves.  Not fighting with any other crime families.Jun 17 10:50
DaemonMDVlmaoJun 17 10:51
DaemonMDVthis is coolJun 17 10:51
DaemonMDVWMA encoding on Linux :DJun 17 10:51
DaemonMDVwonder how many laws I'm breakingJun 17 10:51
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] Copyright Cartel (MAFIAA) Attacks Radio 17 10:52
DaemonMDVsounds better than the Windows Media EncoderJun 17 10:53
DaemonMDVfor some reasonJun 17 10:53
*Tallken (n=f2f93bf5@2001:690:2380:7770:21b:24ff:fed0:3f98) has joined #boycottnovellJun 17 10:55
DaemonMDVthere you goJun 17 10:56
DaemonMDVforget VorbisJun 17 10:56
DaemonMDVLinux can encode to WMAJun 17 10:56
DaemonMDVwhat else do you need?Jun 17 10:56
DaemonMDV:DJun 17 10:56
DaemonMDVand at the addition of only 20-30 more patent infringementsJun 17 10:56
DaemonMDVApple to add HE-AAC support to Snow Leopard, and only 7 years after Windows users had access to it via WinampJun 17 11:00
DaemonMDVsurely this is a great day for innovation :PJun 17 11:00
oiaohmWonder if MS has there WMA watermarking on by default.Jun 17 11:01
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] Growing Opposition Against Intellectual Monopolies 17 11:02
DaemonMDVyou have any idea if there's a Linux frontend to Nero AAC?Jun 17 11:02
DaemonMDVI'm using the Windows version through Wine cause the only Linux AAC encoders insist on FAACJun 17 11:03
oiaohmNero LinuxJun 17 11:04
oiaohmComes to mind DaemonMDVJun 17 11:04
DaemonMDVwell, Nero gives out their command line encoder for freeJun 17 11:04
DaemonMDVbut Foobar 2000 for Windows can pass the commands to the encoderJun 17 11:04
DaemonMDVsaves a ton of troubleJun 17 11:05
oiaohm  Its nero of course it would have a intergration into k3bJun 17 11:06
oiaohmhydrogenaudio is a fun place when you are trying to find front ends for things on Linux with audio DaemonMDVJun 17 11:07
DaemonMDVFAAC seems to be trailing both Nero and iTunes by a few years in terms of qualityJun 17 11:07
DaemonMDVNero hired most of the people working of FAAC and progress has been fairly slow since themJun 17 11:08
DaemonMDV*thenJun 17 11:08
DaemonMDVfrom what I can gatherJun 17 11:08
DaemonMDVNero's encoder works pretty well thoughJun 17 11:08
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DaemonMDVmost open source encoders are the worst in their particular area, LAME actually makes a pretty good MP3 encoderJun 17 11:10
DaemonMDVbut is still limited by the specifications of MP3Jun 17 11:11
DaemonMDVI should upload a few problem cases for VorbisJun 17 11:12
DaemonMDVgod knows I've found about enough of themJun 17 11:12
oiaohmOnly people doing what you are doing can really test a audio codec.Jun 17 11:16
oiaohmAll of them have flaws.Jun 17 11:16
DaemonMDVthere's problem cases for all of them, but I've hit far more walls with Vorbis than MP3 or M4AJun 17 11:17
DaemonMDVVorbis just makes the entire file sound flat to me in a lot of casesJun 17 11:18
DaemonMDVunless I jack up the bitrateJun 17 11:18
DaemonMDVto get the same quality from Vorbis as M4A, Vorbis file usually ends up being about 30-50% largerJun 17 11:19
oiaohmYep that is something that needs reporting.  Its most likely an encoding error.Jun 17 11:20
DaemonMDVI'm not too thrilled about having to use an encoder for Windows on Linux to produce good M4A filesJun 17 11:24
DaemonMDVI'm gonna see if there's any frontends to the Linux version of Nero's free encoderJun 17 11:24
DaemonMDVfailing that I may just buy Nero Linux if it's not that expensiveJun 17 11:25
oiaohmk3b  can be used as a front end for anything just add the command line.Jun 17 11:25
oiaohmThere are a few frontends like that for gnome as well.Jun 17 11:26
DaemonMDVyeah, was gonna sayJun 17 11:26
DaemonMDVI don't like to pull in KDE appsJun 17 11:26
DaemonMDV:PJun 17 11:26
oiaohmBasically I use KDE more.Jun 17 11:26
oiaohmSo I know more where kde apps are.Jun 17 11:26
DaemonMDVI tried Mandriva KDE brieflyJun 17 11:27
DaemonMDVit was good except for the fact that they had to pull in a lot of GNOME to plug the gaps in KDE functionalityJun 17 11:27
DaemonMDVand it ended up being half again as big as the GNOME editionJun 17 11:28
oiaohmThat was most likely known gnome apps.Jun 17 11:28
oiaohmI did that the first time I moved across to kde as well.Jun 17 11:28
DaemonMDVFedora does some of that tooJun 17 11:28
oiaohmBesides with gtk-qt-engine installed you don't notice the gnome apps that much under kde.Jun 17 11:29
DaemonMDVnah, like they had Totem, and GstreamerJun 17 11:29
DaemonMDVFirefoxJun 17 11:29
DaemonMDVwhich by this time they had a lot of GNOME support librariesJun 17 11:29
oiaohmGstreamer is a universal backend.Jun 17 11:29
DaemonMDVand GTK+Jun 17 11:29
oiaohmIts used by native kde and gnome applciations.Jun 17 11:29
DaemonMDVMandriva uses Webkit to render their Control Center but KDE uses KHTML for their help system, but you also have to have Xulrunner for zOMGFirefox!!!!!Jun 17 11:30
DaemonMDVso you effectively have three web browsers on the system you can't get rid ofJun 17 11:30
DaemonMDVthen maybe you want to use OperaJun 17 11:31
oiaohmKHTML most likely in time will fade.   Due to webkit intergration in QT being used instead.Jun 17 11:32
DaemonMDVGNOME is the only desktop environment where they haven't thrown all the features overboard to get it to run on obsolete computers and netbooks or just gone totally fucking crazyJun 17 11:32
DaemonMDV(KDE)Jun 17 11:32
DaemonMDVKHTML was never that great til Apple forked it and got a bunch of other companies behind itJun 17 11:33
DaemonMDVand the KDE team is now largely just backporting their improvementsJun 17 11:33
DaemonMDVso yeah, they may as well just give up and use WebkitJun 17 11:34
DaemonMDVI mean before they started backporting Safari/Webkit patches, Konqueror couldn't even log my into my webmail account, my bank's website, my XBOX Live Forum accountJun 17 11:34
DaemonMDVmost things for that matterJun 17 11:35
DaemonMDVit was simple and uncomplicated because it didn't really understand how to deal with most web pagesJun 17 11:35
MinceRi see it's crApple fanboyism day for DaemonMDVJun 17 11:35
DaemonMDVnot reallyJun 17 11:36
DaemonMDVGoogle has improved Webkit as wellJun 17 11:36
DaemonMDVso has NokiaJun 17 11:36
MinceRor just anti-kde rage?Jun 17 11:36
oiaohmBasically html part is moving down a level DaemonMDVJun 17 11:36
DaemonMDVwho also owns TrolltechJun 17 11:36
DaemonMDVwho's QT Toolkit KDE relies onJun 17 11:36
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oiaohmNokia  DaemonMDVJun 17 11:36
MinceRof khtml was the spawn of hell you described it as and crApple was the second coming, i wonder why they relied on its code to begin withJun 17 11:36
DaemonMDVKHTML was a complete jokeJun 17 11:36
MinceRthere's a distinct lack of logic in that argumentJun 17 11:36
DaemonMDVtotally unusableJun 17 11:36
oiaohmMoving html rendering to the QT level out of the KDE level makes perfect sence.Jun 17 11:37
DaemonMDVI know 3.5.9 and 3.5.10 got a lot of the patches that enabled most secure login pages and suchJun 17 11:37
oiaohmLess wrapping.Jun 17 11:37
DaemonMDVbut a browser that can't even log in or render most web sites is not helpfulJun 17 11:37
MinceRi wonder what a rendering engine has to do with secure login pagesJun 17 11:38
MinceRthey must use different html/css elementsJun 17 11:38
MinceRthat must be itJun 17 11:38
DaemonMDVwell, when it can't figure out how to submit the form dataJun 17 11:38
DaemonMDVand just blanks the entire pageJun 17 11:38
DaemonMDVyeah....Jun 17 11:38
MinceRyes, submission is definitely a rendering taskJun 17 11:39
DaemonMDVKonqueror was/is garbageJun 17 11:39
DaemonMDVApple/Nokia/Google are why you can even use it at all nowJun 17 11:39
MinceRif khtml was the spawn of hell you described it as and it was only saved due to "Apple/Nokia/Google", i wonder why they relied on its code to begin withJun 17 11:40
DaemonMDVotherwise I'm sure it would still fail to render even standards compliant pages that IE 7 even somehow managed to display correctlyJun 17 11:40
DaemonMDVthey didn'tJun 17 11:40
DaemonMDVit was a starting pointJun 17 11:40
DaemonMDVlike I said, Konqueror was simple and stupidJun 17 11:40
DaemonMDVand they fixed it up and made a proper rendering engine out of KHTMLJun 17 11:41
DaemonMDV(Webkit)Jun 17 11:41
MinceRso they didn't rely on its code but it was a starting pointJun 17 11:41
MinceRi see, you fail even english nowJun 17 11:41
MinceRnot just ITJun 17 11:41
DaemonMDVno, some of the work was already done for themJun 17 11:41
DaemonMDVthey could have started from scratchJun 17 11:41
DaemonMDVthey did consider FirefoxJun 17 11:41
DaemonMDVbut it was too bloatedJun 17 11:41
MinceRyou've just said that that "some of the work" sucked horriblyJun 17 11:41
MinceRmake up your mind alreadyJun 17 11:42
DaemonMDVit suckedJun 17 11:42
DaemonMDVbecause it was very incompleteJun 17 11:42
oiaohmDaemonMDV is right MinceRJun 17 11:42
MinceRso why did they use it?Jun 17 11:42
oiaohmand wrong.Jun 17 11:42
oiaohmkhtml had a reseaonsable internal design.Jun 17 11:42
oiaohmJust a major lack of implementation.Jun 17 11:42
MinceRif you have the capability to create an entire rendering engine, why use something that sucks as a base?Jun 17 11:42
DaemonMDVit's like saying "I can cut down the tree and make boards or I can buy pre-fabricated boards to get the project going"Jun 17 11:42
MinceRoiaohm: sounds like it didn't suck after all. but that's not what DaemonMDV is sayingJun 17 11:43
DaemonMDVbut the boards aren't really useful by themselvesJun 17 11:43
DaemonMDVjust raw materialJun 17 11:43
MinceRyou don't need raw material for softwareJun 17 11:43
DaemonMDVyes you doJun 17 11:43
oiaohmHaving the internal implementation right does not mean it could render sites MinceRJun 17 11:43
MinceRyou can have as many bits as you needJun 17 11:43
DaemonMDVit's a euphemism for the source codeJun 17 11:43
oiaohmThat was khtmls major problem.Jun 17 11:43
DaemonMDVit would take time and effort and man hours to write the code from scratchJun 17 11:43
MinceRoiaohm: if it was a trivial task they would have redone itJun 17 11:43
DaemonMDVso they just used KHTML as a frameworkJun 17 11:43
DaemonMDVit's more of a shortcut than that they absolutely relied on KHTMLJun 17 11:44
MinceRDaemonMDV: you've already said that the code sucked, then they used it as a starting point and it magically stopped suckingJun 17 11:44
oiaohmThe also moved it from being stacked ontop of KDE libs.Jun 17 11:44
DaemonMDVFirefox sucks moreJun 17 11:44
MinceRoiaohm: afaik that's the gist of what they didJun 17 11:44
DaemonMDVthey admitted it was going to be more work to fix Gecko than to write most of Webkit based off of KHTMLJun 17 11:44
MinceRDaemonMDV: perhaps if you'd repress your irrational anti-kde rage you'd understand something in lifeJun 17 11:45
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oiaohmYep implementing a whole stack of missing support holes.Jun 17 11:45
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oiaohmAnd moved the interface to a better location.Jun 17 11:45
EruaranhelloJun 17 11:45
MinceRhayJun 17 11:46
DaemonMDVit's like buying an empty lot (doing it yourself) finding a lot with the foundation in place to get you going (KHTML or trying to renovate a crack den (FirefoxJun 17 11:46
MinceRDaemonMDV: building a house is not the same as building softwareJun 17 11:46
EruaranI've been playing with Opera UniteJun 17 11:46
MinceRalso, if everything sucks then so does the foundationJun 17 11:46
EruaranI rather like itJun 17 11:46
MinceRbecause "everything" includes it by definitionJun 17 11:46
DaemonMDVturns out Geckp is really enormous and bloated which is why you never see it on mobile phonesJun 17 11:47
DaemonMDV:)Jun 17 11:47
DaemonMDV*GeckoJun 17 11:47
MinceRDaemonMDV: except for fennec?Jun 17 11:47
MinceRor is that distinct from it?Jun 17 11:47
trmancoschestowitz, did you see the changelog?Jun 17 11:47
DaemonMDVno mobile phones use Gecko, they all use Opera or Webkit-based browsersJun 17 11:47
EruaranBBC has footage of what appears to be govt backed militia attacking university dorms in IranJun 17 11:48
Eruaran 17 11:48
DaemonMDVimplementing Gecko owuld mean having to put in double the memory or more right there, and since Gecko leaks so much, you still risk freezing the phone's operating systemJun 17 11:48
DaemonMDVif the user leaves the browser open too longJun 17 11:48
DaemonMDVFirefox gets by on desktops because there you have gigs of RAM and a SWAP fileJun 17 11:49
MinceRinternet tablets do use gecko thoughJun 17 11:49
MinceR 17 11:49
DaemonMDVso you're not likely to notice it misbehavingJun 17 11:49
MinceRso we've moved from anti-kde rage to anti-mozilla rage nowJun 17 11:49
MinceRi wonder what's nextJun 17 11:49
MinceRanti-opera rage?Jun 17 11:50
DaemonMDV"n particular, SVG support is disabled due to unacceptable performance, and XUL is not included to reduce size and decrease memory consumption.[3] As XUL is not included, most Firefox plugins require porting and repackaging before they can be used with MicroB. In place of XUL, MicroB uses GTK and the Hildon UI toolkit to provide a native interface.[4]"Jun 17 11:50
DaemonMDVso they implemented Gecko by removing its biggest memory leaking featuresJun 17 11:50
DaemonMDVand porting the user interface to QTJun 17 11:50
MinceRwow, mobile browsers don't include all the features of desktop browsers? well, i never!Jun 17 11:51
DaemonMDVthat's kind of cheating since they had to cripple itJun 17 11:51
DaemonMDVbut OK, *claps*Jun 17 11:51
MinceRwell, everyone cheats thenJun 17 11:51
DaemonMDVnoJun 17 11:51
MinceRalso, is hildon qt already?Jun 17 11:51
DaemonMDVPresto isn't crippledJun 17 11:51
DaemonMDVnor WebkitJun 17 11:51
MinceRas for 130802 < DaemonMDV> but OK, *claps*Jun 17 11:52
MinceRgo die in a fireJun 17 11:52
oiaohmWebkit can do a XUL style interface.   You don't do it for the same reasons it bad on firefox.Jun 17 11:52
DaemonMDVI'm happy enough with Opera on my phoneJun 17 11:52
oiaohmjavascript is not what you call leakless.Jun 17 11:53
oiaohmchrome started the idea of each tab having its own process to get on top of the javascript leak problem.Jun 17 11:53
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oiaohmI will be interested to see how palm interface has got onto of the javascript leak problem.Jun 17 11:55
schestowitztrmanco: gnote?Jun 17 11:57
trmancoyesJun 17 11:57
schestowitzNo, not yetJun 17 11:58
schestowitzI was gonna blog it laterJun 17 11:58
schestowitzCaught up with news, COLA.Jun 17 11:58
schestowitzBN's most read posts are daily links too, so I'll do this...Jun 17 11:58
schestowitzOK, links: 17 12:01
oiaohm  As with all tech it is double sided.Jun 17 12:02
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trmancoschestowitz, read it carefullyJun 17 12:05
trmanco:-PJun 17 12:05
DaemonMDVschestowitz: As far as modernizing FreeBSD...Jun 17 12:07
DaemonMDVPC-BSD has been around for a whileJun 17 12:07
DaemonMDVaside from the occasional oddball wireless chipset, it works wellJun 17 12:07
schestowitzRead what?Jun 17 12:07
schestowitzoiaohm's link?Jun 17 12:07
schestowitzI've not paid much attentionJun 17 12:07
schestowitzMany posts to make right nowJun 17 12:08
DaemonMDVyou can usually make those Windows-only wifi chipsets wotk on the BSDs with NDISgenJun 17 12:08
DaemonMDV(Project Evil)Jun 17 12:08
DaemonMDVit's like NDISWrapper for the BSDsJun 17 12:08
oiaohmIt is DaemonMDVJun 17 12:09
oiaohmthere are shared developers between the two projects DaemonMDVJun 17 12:09
DaemonMDVLinux Mint has NDIS Wrapper by defaultJun 17 12:09
DaemonMDVheheJun 17 12:09
DaemonMDVMandriva used toJun 17 12:09
DaemonMDVor maybe that was jsut a PowerPack thingJun 17 12:09
oiaohmschestowitz: my links was over the way html5 can be abused.Jun 17 12:10
oiaohmOpps linkJun 17 12:10
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DaemonMDVI already mentioned an easy way to abuse itJun 17 12:10
DaemonMDVsince Vorbis and Theora are not part of the standardJun 17 12:10
DaemonMDVjust use WMA/WMV streamsJun 17 12:10
oiaohmHave you read link DaemonMDV?Jun 17 12:10
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DaemonMDVoiaohm: For some reason, SoundConverter is fairly dumbed downJun 17 12:13
oiaohmIn theory if you wanted to be nuts using canves in html5 and javascript you could do a in html video codec.Jun 17 12:13
DaemonMDVAAC can go well up to 500k but SoundConverter only lets you do 256kJun 17 12:13
oiaohmSo removing the browser support problem.Jun 17 12:14
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trmancohey lookJun 17 12:16
trmanco 17 12:16
DaemonMDVwell, Windows Nero encoder through Wine it isJun 17 12:16
trmancoeurope suports odf :DJun 17 12:16
DaemonMDVtil FAAC gets sorted outJun 17 12:16
schestowitztrmanco: what's in it?Jun 17 12:17
trmancoCV modelsJun 17 12:17
trmancoyou can download it in odf or .docJun 17 12:17
DaemonMDVI did notice my phone supports High Efficiency AAC for ringtones thoughJun 17 12:17
DaemonMDVbut for some reason, all of Centennial's downloads are MP3Jun 17 12:18
schestowitz"It no longer depends on boost regex. Instead it uses pcrecpp (part ofJun 17 12:18
schestowitzpcre). This was:Jun 17 12:18
schestowitz1. to fix a bug with unicode that PCRE deal much betterJun 17 12:18
schestowitz2. as a side effect, reduce the dependencies as boost regex was pullingJun 17 12:18
schestowitzicu (which is big)Jun 17 12:18
schestowitzAlso I removed the libxml++ dependency as it was causing variousJun 17 12:18
schestowitzproblems between their ABI breakage and the bugs in 2.26. Now onlyJun 17 12:18
schestowitzlibxml2 is needed."Jun 17 12:18
oiaohmI wounder how long until someone is insane enough to do something like a bittorrent client in javascript.Jun 17 12:18
schestowitz  * No longer reference Tomboy in the help screenshot (Closes #581195)Jun 17 12:18
schestowitz    (Tony Manco)Jun 17 12:18
schestowitzHAHAHAH!Jun 17 12:18
trmanco:)Jun 17 12:19
schestowitzcd /home/sandy && find | grep  sandy {rm whatever}Jun 17 12:19
DaemonMDV 17 12:26
DaemonMDVdoing ABX on ~250k Nero AAC, I only chose correctly 1 out of 18 vs the CDJun 17 12:28
DaemonMDVVorbis in that quality range I got it right 9 times out of 18Jun 17 12:29
DaemonMDVLAME MP3 I was right 5 of 18Jun 17 12:29
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*DaemonMDV invites oiaohm to get down with the sickness :PJun 17 12:32
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oiaohmI have never see that band before DaemonMDVJun 17 12:34
DaemonMDVDisturbed?Jun 17 12:34
DaemonMDVyou're kidding meJun 17 12:34
oiaohmNot kidding.Jun 17 12:34
DaemonMDVI have all their albumsJun 17 12:34
oiaohmNot something I have ever seen here in Australia.Jun 17 12:35
DaemonMDVprobably banned by the Family and Fascist PartyJun 17 12:35
DaemonMDValong with half the internetJun 17 12:35
DaemonMDV:DJun 17 12:35
oiaohmSite not banned.Jun 17 12:36
DaemonMDVhmmmJun 17 12:36
DaemonMDVI also have all of SeetherJun 17 12:37
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[trmanco] A fazer o meu CVJun 17 12:37
DaemonMDVincluding their first album which was only released in South AfricaJun 17 12:37
DaemonMDVRhythmbox can't find the album art for it eitherJun 17 12:37
DaemonMDVlolJun 17 12:37
oiaohmI guess it is a equal mirror "All Mankind" you would not know.Jun 17 12:38
oiaohmThere are a few bands here and there that don't cross regions.Jun 17 12:39
DaemonMDVthey couldn't even release the first song on their Fragiel album in the USJun 17 12:39
DaemonMDVcause of the RIAA and WalmartJun 17 12:39
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DaemonMDVmost of the rest were re-recorded and released in the US as part of Disclaimer/Disclaimer IIJun 17 12:40
DaemonMDVI had to pay $40 to get it as an importJun 17 12:42
DaemonMDVand another $12 to ship itJun 17 12:42
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DaemonMDV 17 12:53
DaemonMDVhehJun 17 12:53
*DaemonMDV might throw Alive 2007 at Nero AACJun 17 12:54
DaemonMDVsee how it handles itJun 17 12:54
DaemonMDVMP3 and Vorbis both fall over and dieJun 17 12:54
DaemonMDVthough MP3 pulls ahead if I use lowpass of 19 Khz and CBR 320Jun 17 12:55
DaemonMDVoiaohm: Do you happen to know what Last.FM streams inJun 17 12:59
DaemonMDVhas to be something proprietary cause I remember it triggering Ubuntu's codec installer onceJun 17 12:59
DaemonMDVforget what it made me grab thoughJun 17 12:59
oiaohmSorry I don't DaemonMDVJun 17 13:00
DaemonMDV 17 13:02
DaemonMDVouchJun 17 13:02
DaemonMDVmight want to uninstall Last.FMJun 17 13:02
DaemonMDVLast.FM is spying on users for the RIAAJun 17 13:03
DaemonMDVand then trying to lie their way out of itJun 17 13:03
DaemonMDVeffectively making Last.FM a form of spyware that goes so far as to ship with most Linux distrosJun 17 13:03
DaemonMDV"The exact nature of the data that was allegedly transferred is still not clear. It’s implied that the data linked scrobbles to IP addresses."Jun 17 13:05
DaemonMDVso the RIAA knows what music you have on your computer if you ever sign into Last.FM and let it scrobble your libraryJun 17 13:05
DaemonMDVeven if it's through a plugin as in Amarok, Banshee, or RhythmboxJun 17 13:06
DaemonMDV 17 13:07
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] Crime exposed: How Steve Ballmer (and Colleagues) Deliberately Sabotaged OS/2 < >Jun 17 13:07
DaemonMDVschestowitz: Why would I want to make my system look like Mac OS XJun 17 13:09
*DaemonMDV personally thinks OS X looks like utter crapJun 17 13:10
DaemonMDVI do like how Mandriva has made GNOME look smootherJun 17 13:12
DaemonMDVthat was cleverJun 17 13:12
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oiaohmI have not inspected what Mandriva did DaemonMDVJun 17 13:28
DaemonMDVI just purged Mono from the systemJun 17 13:29
DaemonMDVthe only thing it took out that I even use is F-SpotJun 17 13:29
DaemonMDVgthumb does an equally good jobJun 17 13:29
DaemonMDVand I gained another 70 MB of RAM from not having Beagle SearchJun 17 13:30
DaemonMDV:PJun 17 13:30
DaemonMDVthat must be their token sacrifice to the Vista Search godsJun 17 13:30
oiaohmThere is tracker and others that do basically the same job as Beagle with less ram usage.Jun 17 13:31
oiaohmreally its token stupidity.Jun 17 13:31
DaemonMDVI don't care because I usually don't search for things and the resource drain is more than it's worthJun 17 13:32
DaemonMDVI think the reason Suse is so slow is because Tomboy and Beagle need more RAM to run than Windows 2000Jun 17 13:32
DaemonMDVseems there's also some kind of a backup service loaded in Mandriva taking 31.5 megs of RAM even if backups are not enabledJun 17 13:33
DaemonMDV(the default)Jun 17 13:34
DaemonMDVI killed it and disabled the service from starting upJun 17 13:35
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DaemonMDVI think all distros are just out on a mission to eat your hard disk and RAM to spend on all kinds of stupid shit that only a few people will even want or needJun 17 13:37
polywafflejust saw a debate about debian including monoJun 17 13:38
polywafflebit of a shame eh?Jun 17 13:38
DaemonMDVmeh, they've never followed most of their own policies anywayJun 17 13:38
polywaffleI think it is a bit of a concern reallyJun 17 13:39
polywaffleideologically speakingJun 17 13:39
DaemonMDVI don'tJun 17 13:39
oiaohmFor the mono guys it is something to worry about.Jun 17 13:39
DaemonMDVnot so much of one as the influential desktop distributions piling it inJun 17 13:39
oiaohmIf debian decide to drop them so will a lot of other distributions.Jun 17 13:39
oiaohmDebian legal outcomes are respected.Jun 17 13:40
polywafflewell I just removed it from ubuntuJun 17 13:40
polywaffleon my machineJun 17 13:40
DaemonMDVI removed it on MandrivaJun 17 13:40
polywaffleand installed gnote to replace tomboyJun 17 13:40
DaemonMDVthere's nothing important that even depends on itJun 17 13:40
oiaohmJust to tech .net does not stand up to the likes of vala.Jun 17 13:40
DaemonMDVUbuntu wasted over 80 megs of the LiveCD on Mono runtimesJun 17 13:40
DaemonMDVthat 80 megs could be spent on something importantJun 17 13:40
polywaffleI think we need to remember (its obvious of course) that microsoft is not a friend, we should really try as much as possible to avoid crossing certain linesJun 17 13:41
oiaohmMono is not memory effective.Jun 17 13:41
oiaohmIt has a major design flaw.Jun 17 13:41
polywaffleeven if it were, would that matter?Jun 17 13:41
DaemonMDV80 megs spent on runtimes to run a note taking application and a photo browser that has a non-mono equivalentJun 17 13:41
oiaohmYou cannot directly interface to C or gobject or C++ so it basically incompable with all prior stuff.Jun 17 13:41
DaemonMDVthe only thing that was keeping me on the fence was BansheeJun 17 13:42
oiaohmSo needs heavy wrappers.Jun 17 13:42
DaemonMDVI like some bits of it better than RhythmboxJun 17 13:42
DaemonMDVbut if it's just going to crash when I plug my mp3 player inJun 17 13:42
DaemonMDVwhat good is it?Jun 17 13:42 was designed to cure a windows problem.Jun 17 13:42
polywafflerhythmbox is ok I feelJun 17 13:42
oiaohmLack of a good mandorary access control system.Jun 17 13:43
polywaffleis that to secureJun 17 13:43
polywafflei was about to say thatJun 17 13:43
polywafflethe whole vm thingJun 17 13:43
oiaohmLinux kernel has great Mandorary access controls built in.Jun 17 13:43
oiaohmSo you are basically double stacking.Jun 17 13:43
oiaohmThere is no point to it.Jun 17 13:43
polywaffleI knowJun 17 13:44
polywafflebut stillJun 17 13:44
DaemonMDVthere's also the issue of "Why are they using Evolution?"Jun 17 13:44
polywaffleyou guys are being pragmaticJun 17 13:44
MinceRi thought it was designed to implement m$ java after being slapped because they tried to corrupt sun's javaJun 17 13:44
DaemonMDVthat thing is over 90 megs just to read your emailJun 17 13:44
polywaffleif you can look at it from an ideological perspectiveJun 17 13:44
oiaohmA byte code system on top of vala design framework would be great.Jun 17 13:44
MinceRactually evolution can do a lot more than "just to read your email"Jun 17 13:44
oiaohmOr even better under.Jun 17 13:44
polywaffleand use the precautionary principleJun 17 13:44
DaemonMDVMinceR: Doesn't matterJun 17 13:44
oiaohmTake the bytecode out of gcc or llvm and make it cross cpu type.Jun 17 13:45
polywaffleit makes me think, apart from novell, microsoft has friends in our communityJun 17 13:45
oiaohmand over night you would have a bytecode system that covered most applications that exist on Linux.Jun 17 13:45
DaemonMDVThunderbird + Sunbird (think that's the name of Mozilla calender app) is like 40 megs put togetherJun 17 13:45
MinceRDaemonMDV: and obviously everyone in the world has the same requirements toward email clients as you doJun 17 13:45
DaemonMDVso Evolution is still over twice as bigJun 17 13:45
MinceRthunderbird fails harder at handling search foldersJun 17 13:45
oiaohmI personally use kontact DaemonMDVJun 17 13:45
DaemonMDVEvolution = the Tiger tank of email applicationsJun 17 13:46
oiaohmkontact is the basically a suit of applications working as 1.Jun 17 13:46
MinceRi used kmail until 1.10, where they introduced this new feature where it just crashes when i try to view search foldersJun 17 13:46
MinceRbut maybe it's been fixed since, i'll have to checkJun 17 13:46
oiaohmBeen fixed.Jun 17 13:46
MinceRthxJun 17 13:47
oiaohmThe mistake of java was the same as .net too thick of wrappers harming performance.Jun 17 13:47
polywaffledo any core components of GNOME use C# ?Jun 17 13:47
oiaohmC# cannot intergrate well into the gobject system.Jun 17 13:48
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oiaohmSo it cannot really be used to create core components in gnome.Jun 17 13:48
ThistleWebEvolution is huge, but then it's much more than just an email clientJun 17 13:48
polywaffleokJun 17 13:48
ThistleWebit's way more than most peeps needJun 17 13:48
mib_cetulj:D first time on mbitJun 17 13:48
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mib_cetuljoops boss bblJun 17 13:48
polywaffleThistleWeb shouldn't it be more modularJun 17 13:48
oiaohmThat is the problem mono pushed as this great thing but it cannot intergrate.Jun 17 13:49
ThistleWebpolywaffle: my thing with Evolution is that it's welded into GnomeJun 17 13:49
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ThistleWebas far as I know, you can't remove it from GnomeJun 17 13:49
polywaffleThistleWeb this I noticed when I tried to uninstall itJun 17 13:49
oiaohmvala a releated syntax language to C# with light wrappers could be used to build.Jun 17 13:49
ThistleWebif you install it outside of Gnome, it wants the whole Gnome desktop as a dependencyJun 17 13:50
polywaffleThistleWeb pretty crap ehJun 17 13:50
ThistleWebsomething that tight that it can't be removed reminds me too much of WindowsJun 17 13:50
polywaffleit is not without a sense of irony that soon it seems KDE will be more free than GNOMEJun 17 13:50
ThistleWeband why the modular approach is betterJun 17 13:50
oiaohmKDE follows a strong module method.   Some things still need a lot of modules of course.Jun 17 13:51
polywafflebut kde is screwed atmJun 17 13:51
polywaffleeven I refuse to use it for mission critical stuffJun 17 13:51
oiaohmI am still running 3.5Jun 17 13:51
polywaffleyerJun 17 13:51
ThistleWebI grew out of kde ages ago but kde 4 is looking sweetJun 17 13:51
polywaffleit LOOKS sweetJun 17 13:52
oiaohmI am tollerent.Jun 17 13:52
polywafflebut it is sour like lemonJun 17 13:52
oiaohmKDE 4 each version has improved.Jun 17 13:52
neighborleepolywaffle, how true indeedJun 17 13:52
ThistleWebby the time I get a PC capable of running kde 4, it will be super smoothJun 17 13:52
polywafflelolJun 17 13:52
*ThistleWeb has never actually tried kde 4Jun 17 13:52
oiaohmCompisited effects are a killer.Jun 17 13:52
oiaohmLot of lockups people blame on kde 4 track to that.Jun 17 13:53
polywafflewell I think that we need solid stabilityJun 17 13:53
polywafflethen featuresJun 17 13:53
oiaohmThere is a problem.Jun 17 13:53
ThistleWebnearest I got was Mandriva (I think) in live mode, but my lil PC was wheezing at just showing the desktop, so it took forever to click on a menu for it to show, let alone run anythingJun 17 13:53
oiaohmKDE 4 was designed for DRI 2.Jun 17 13:53
oiaohmMost people enable all features on DRI 1 that has some defects KDE 4 hits causing X11 to go out.Jun 17 13:54
polywaffleexcuse my ignorance, but why don't the distros iron this outJun 17 13:54
oiaohmMost likely by the time DRI 2 drivers are ready so will KDE.Jun 17 13:54
neighborleeif its designed for 2, how are they enablng support for 1..:)Jun 17 13:54
neighborleeo_0Jun 17 13:54
DaemonMDVnothing is going to iron out KDEJun 17 13:54
ThistleWebkde 4 is a major overhaulJun 17 13:54
oiaohmThey are not neighborleeJun 17 13:54
ThistleWebit's not just a minor upgradeJun 17 13:55
DaemonMDVif 70,000+ patches since KDE 4 hasn'tJun 17 13:55
oiaohmThey leave it to the user to be smart enough not to turn all features on.Jun 17 13:55
polywafflelol at last commentJun 17 13:55
oiaohmDaemonMDV: KDE 4 will sort out in time.Jun 17 13:56
polywafflewell it willJun 17 13:56
polywafflebut then will be QT5Jun 17 13:56
polywaffleand the whole saga will start overJun 17 13:56
oiaohmUnlikely.Jun 17 13:56
neighborleeI consider it worthy risk, given the reliable mess we have with gnome.Jun 17 13:57
oiaohmQT 4 was designed to be updated without causing major issues like QT 3 was.Jun 17 13:57
oiaohmBasically QT 4 is also a more moduler design so parts in it could be completely replaced in time.Jun 17 13:57
polywaffleI hope soJun 17 13:58
oiaohmQT4 to 5 will be just a gradual conversion.Jun 17 13:58
polywaffleI hope to abandon this messJun 17 13:58
polywafflenothing should be weldedJun 17 13:58
polywafflemodular it should beJun 17 13:58
oiaohmKDE 3.5 basically got to the limit the QT 3 could handle.Jun 17 13:58
polywaffleof course some dependencies must beJun 17 13:58
polywafflewell they did well with itJun 17 13:58
oiaohmLot of its code base is a night mare internally fixing up QT3 faults.Jun 17 13:58
oiaohmKDE 4 had to happen.  Major correction of major faults also comes with major pain.Jun 17 13:59
oiaohmCatching KDE 4 feature wise up to KDE 3.5 is a massive project.Jun 17 14:00
ThistleWebKDE 4 is a huge upgrade of almost everything under the hood, it's gonna take time to get it where it needs to beJun 17 14:01
ThistleWebI like where it's headed thoughJun 17 14:01
MinceRit shouldn't be considered a stable release until it gets thereJun 17 14:02
ThistleWebstable = only for horsesJun 17 14:02
MinceReven debian is dropping 3.5 in squeezeJun 17 14:02
MinceRi prefer my os-es and gui-s to be stable, thank-you-very-muchJun 17 14:02
fewathen use gnomeJun 17 14:03
ThistleWebgnome aint the answer, an LTS version of a distro isJun 17 14:03
fewatwo differnt questionsJun 17 14:03
oiaohm3.5 is stable.Jun 17 14:03
fewa4.x is unstable in all incantationsJun 17 14:04
oiaohm4.2 configured right is stable.Jun 17 14:04
oiaohmJust very feature less.Jun 17 14:04
fewaand 4.2 is the first stable releaseJun 17 14:04
oiaohmYou could get 4.0 stable too.Jun 17 14:04
oiaohmSame problem very featureless.Jun 17 14:04
MinceRgnome has pretty much the same issuesJun 17 14:04
fewamah, i find gnome stableJun 17 14:05
fewait just uses too much resourcesJun 17 14:05
MinceRwell, without compiz it's reasonably stableJun 17 14:05
MinceRexcept that both kde and gnome (or something else) eats all my memory since i upgraded to intrepidJun 17 14:05
ThistleWebit depends ont he distro too, Fedora like being ahead of the curve but it's not the most stable for itJun 17 14:05
fewai have 8GBJun 17 14:05
fewai dont even think about ramJun 17 14:05
MinceRand since my laptop is partially broken (physically), i didn't proceed with finishing the lenny install and configuring itJun 17 14:06
MinceRi'll do it on the new laptopJun 17 14:06
MinceRit's nice to have 8GB, i have 1GBJun 17 14:06
DaemonMDVschestowitz: 17 14:06
oiaohmI run on 4GB at moment.Jun 17 14:06
fewait was just so cheepJun 17 14:06
fewaI had firefox up to 1.5GBJun 17 14:07
DaemonMDV#Jun 17 14:07
DaemonMDV<thenixedreport> So how would one go about acquiring a royalty free license for .NET?Jun 17 14:07
DaemonMDV#Jun 17 14:07
DaemonMDV<thenixedreport> According to ECMA, they don't deal with licensing.Jun 17 14:07
DaemonMDV#Jun 17 14:07
polywaffleFedora is good but for the 6 month cycleJun 17 14:07
fewaonceJun 17 14:07
DaemonMDV<miguel> To ECMA 334/335 you meanJun 17 14:07
oiaohmKDE 4.2 will operation reasonablely in 512 megs of ram.Jun 17 14:07
DaemonMDV#Jun 17 14:07
DaemonMDV<miguel> You ask MicrosoftJun 17 14:07
DaemonMDV#Jun 17 14:07
DaemonMDV<thenixedreport> Ok.Jun 17 14:07
DaemonMDV#Jun 17 14:07
DaemonMDV<thenixedreport> So who specifically do I ask at Microsoft?Jun 17 14:07
DaemonMDV#Jun 17 14:07
DaemonMDV<miguel> How would I know?Jun 17 14:07
oiaohmDaemonMDV: I want to kill you.Jun 17 14:07
polywafflewhy didn't you pastebin?Jun 17 14:07
neighborleelolJun 17 14:07
MinceRit was pastebinned alreadyJun 17 14:08
fewaDaemonMDV is a troll, ignore himJun 17 14:08
oiaohmAt least edit it not to include the line wasteful #Jun 17 14:08
polywaffleok, so leave it lolJun 17 14:08
MinceRit wouldn't be floody enough otherwiseJun 17 14:08
MinceRhe isn't just a troll, he's also a flooderJun 17 14:08
fewahe does trollJun 17 14:08
*DaemonMDV teabags MinceR and goes back to watching his movieJun 17 14:08
ThistleWebwith audio coding tourettesJun 17 14:08
fewajust not all the timeJun 17 14:08
MinceRDaemonMDV: liesJun 17 14:08
MinceRwell, i suppose he sleeps sometimesJun 17 14:09
oiaohmIt been borring no trolls have turned up.Jun 17 14:09
ThistleWebthe way some users are in here, everyone is only a few sentences away from being labelled a trollJun 17 14:11
oiaohmI am really looking forward to linux getting runtime detection of bad ram.Jun 17 14:11
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oiaohmSo I don't have to work on my system when a ram stick dies.Jun 17 14:12
polywaffleThe problem started when corporations got involved I reckonJun 17 14:12
polywafflethey are always interested in IPJun 17 14:12
Omar87HiJun 17 14:12
polywafflehiJun 17 14:12
Omar87Guys, what is this all about? 17 14:12
MinceRafaik it's a dead projectJun 17 14:13
MinceRapproximately the same goal as monoJun 17 14:13
oiaohmKinda dead project.Jun 17 14:13
polywaffleits dead?Jun 17 14:13
ThistleWebit's just sleepingJun 17 14:13
Tallkennot same thingJun 17 14:13
ThistleWebgive the cage a shakeJun 17 14:13
Tallkenwikipedia quoting INCOMINGJun 17 14:13
oiaohmEvery now and again a developer turns up and gives it a nother kick.Jun 17 14:13
TallkenThe main goal of the DotGNU project code base is to provide a class library that is 100% Common Language Specification compliant. In contrast, the main goal of another free software/open source CLI implementation, the Mono Project, is to provide 100% compatible class libraries for both the CLS specification and with the class library currently released by Microsoft for their other proprietary version of .NET, which the DotJun 17 14:13
TallkenGNU project claims is not currently fully ECMA CLS compliant.Jun 17 14:13
ThistleWebshout PRETTY POLLY at itJun 17 14:13
Tallkenfrom 17 14:14
oiaohmreally the complete design of .net is pointless.Jun 17 14:14
Tallken[citation needed]Jun 17 14:14
oiaohmIn time it will get run under.Jun 17 14:14
MinceRi don't have my .net/mono TLA training :>Jun 17 14:14
polywafflequestion isJun 17 14:16
polywafflewhy do we NEED itJun 17 14:16
polywaffleif we don't NEED it, don't get itJun 17 14:16
polywaffledon't waste resources etcJun 17 14:16
oiaohmThe idea is good.   Implementation sux with .net.Jun 17 14:16
ThistleWebpolywaffle: it serves a purpose; if you have existing .net apps you need, it's a good thing for youJun 17 14:16
oiaohmCross platform bytecode there is some justification to that idea.Jun 17 14:16
ThistleWebif you don't have that need, then you dont need itJun 17 14:16
polywaffleif you need a vm runtime why not IceTeaJun 17 14:17 is a copy of the java idea with the same flaws.Jun 17 14:17
ThistleWebI don't know of any mono app which is unique (has no non-mono equivalents) that normal users would needJun 17 14:17
oiaohmvala will fill the coders complianing about C++ and C syntax sucking.Jun 17 14:18
polywaffleI think a lot in the community have forgotten about why we aim for complete freedomJun 17 14:18
oiaohmI don't exactly think about freedom.Jun 17 14:18
ThistleWebeven if Microsoft announced there was no legal fear with mono, I'd still read that as "there's no legal fear, until we update our website, which we reserve the right to do at any time"Jun 17 14:18
polywafflewhat do you think about then?Jun 17 14:19
ThistleWebthey can't be trusted to be straight with their partners, let alone ideas they want crushedJun 17 14:19
oiaohmMono  and .net are both bad quality design.   There is no point having freedom is software can never perform.Jun 17 14:19
MinceRThistleWeb: as long as it isn't legally binding forever, any m$ announcement is uselessJun 17 14:19
ThistleWebMinceR: exactlyJun 17 14:19
oiaohmLike if the design was really great you would be able to justify spending development time on it even if you could not use it for 20 years until patents expired.Jun 17 14:20
polywaffleI think software freedom is not just represented by licenses, we need software that completely does not infringe on patentsJun 17 14:20
polywaffleavoids the whole issue completelyJun 17 14:20
ThistleWebthey like to answer the calls with agreements and covenants which are all open to being pulled at any timeJun 17 14:20
MinceR20 years from now the whole system could very well be obsoleteJun 17 14:20
oiaohmBasically since mono and .net design suxs.  It better be truly free.Jun 17 14:20
oiaohmThink C MinceRJun 17 14:21
oiaohmIf it was locked up by patents for 20 years would it have mattered long term.Jun 17 14:21
polywaffleI just think that even the FSF is being shortsighted on the whole licensing thing a bitJun 17 14:21
oiaohmIts a decent language and light.Jun 17 14:21
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MinceRoiaohm: those who think they can profit so much from it that it's worth locking down should pay all the costs of development.Jun 17 14:21
oiaohmSomething like C would be worth the risk.Jun 17 14:21
oiaohmMono and .net is not like C.Jun 17 14:22
oiaohmIt not good quality.Jun 17 14:22
MinceRoiaohm: if they don't let me profit from my work in some way then i'll leave them to their own devices.Jun 17 14:22 is about making coding easy and fastJun 17 14:22
ThistleWebfor non-coders to easily learnJun 17 14:22
MinceRalso, didn't C predate the whole sw patent mess?Jun 17 14:22
oiaohmvala is also about making coding easy and fast.Jun 17 14:22
MinceRC++ is also about making coding easy and fast.Jun 17 14:22
oiaohmMinceR: it did I am just using it as a example of something that is good quality design.Jun 17 14:23
MinceRif the programmer can be bothered to learn the language.Jun 17 14:23
oiaohmI did not pick C++ because it can be heavy.Jun 17 14:23
oiaohmdue to its design.Jun 17 14:23
MinceRsometimes i feel it isn't heavy enough.Jun 17 14:23
polywafflebut isn't C++ resistant to becoming spaghettiware?Jun 17 14:23
oiaohmheavy in cost on perfonace.Jun 17 14:23
oiaohmBut C++ is still way ahead of .netJun 17 14:24
oiaohmC++ would be iffy in my mind if there was a patent problem.Jun 17 14:24
ThistleWebmy understanding is that .net is aimed at those who need a reasonably simple app but don't have the time to learn how to really code, so the .net / visual studio is an entry level / quick and dirty way of getting the app workingJun 17 14:24
oiaohmIts not perfect but its not bad enough to walk away from.Jun 17 14:24
MinceRpolywaffle: i'd say it's highly resistant to thatJun 17 14:24
MinceRpolywaffle: considering the features that were designed to make large projects manageable.Jun 17 14:24
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polywafflewhen say compared to CJun 17 14:24
polywaffleI am not a developer sorry MinceRJun 17 14:25
oiaohmThistleWeb: vala takes the language design of C# and does it in a way that had very little overheads.Jun 17 14:25
polywaffleI am a business student with a strong interest in free softwareJun 17 14:25
MinceRoiaohm: i doubt you can get those features at a lower costJun 17 14:25
polywaffleI will learn in the futureJun 17 14:25
oiaohmMinceR: you can get them at a lower cost.Jun 17 14:25
MinceRpolywaffle: namespaces and OOP help a lot.Jun 17 14:25
MinceRoiaohm: with what language?Jun 17 14:25
oiaohmadaJun 17 14:25
polywafflenamespaces and OOP?Jun 17 14:25
MinceRwell, i'm not quite familiar with adaJun 17 14:25
oiaohmIts a really old languageJun 17 14:26
polywaffleohJun 17 14:26
MinceRpolywaffle: OOP was invented to deal with the software crisis; namespaces help large projects tooJun 17 14:26
polywaffleobject oriented programmingJun 17 14:26
polywafflesorryJun 17 14:26
MinceRicJun 17 14:26
oiaohmBut it was design more to convert neater to asm.Jun 17 14:26
polywafflejust got thatJun 17 14:26
polywafflelolJun 17 14:26
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MinceRmy main problem with ada is that it has pascal syntaxJun 17 14:26
oiaohmC++ started live as a wrapper over CJun 17 14:26
MinceRwith all the horror that implies.Jun 17 14:26
oiaohmAnd it still shows.Jun 17 14:26
polywaffleso you guys say learn CJun 17 14:27
polywaffleand not C++?Jun 17 14:27
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] Microsoft’s Latest Big Departure Oversaw the Company’s “Evangelism Group” (AstroTurfing) < >Jun 17 14:27
oiaohmMaybe one day someone might make a complier good enough that its overheads are handled correctly.Jun 17 14:27
ThistleWebthe thing with languages is that even though an obscure one may be better, if you do a project in it, you're potentially limiting those who can contribute if they prefer one of the more popular onesJun 17 14:27
MinceRpolywaffle: i say learn bothJun 17 14:27
oiaohmC and C++ are releated.Jun 17 14:27
oiaohmHaving both is useful.Jun 17 14:27
MinceRpolywaffle: you'll need a foundation of C for C++ anyway.Jun 17 14:27
ThistleWebwhich is why php is the FOSS web language of choice, even if it's not the best suited for the roleJun 17 14:27
oiaohmVala translates down into C.Jun 17 14:27
polywafflegive me time and I will, I want to contribute back and not just be a consumer/plauditJun 17 14:28
oiaohmThe way it does it avoids having a runtime.Jun 17 14:28
oiaohmC++ could have been designed to avoid needing a runtime but it was not.Jun 17 14:28
oiaohmIssue is design.Jun 17 14:28
ThistleWebit's another reason that Microsoft want to push .net / monoJun 17 14:28
oiaohmEither something is good bad or resonable.Jun 17 14:28
ThistleWebto get more people using their languagesJun 17 14:29
oiaohmC and vala are both good design.Jun 17 14:29
MinceRoiaohm: what do you mean by "runtime"?Jun 17 14:29
oiaohmlibstdc++  MinceRJun 17 14:29
polywaffleI thought a runtime was a vmJun 17 14:29
polywafflefor a particular languageJun 17 14:29
polywafflelike java needs a vmJun 17 14:29
ThistleWebnah, runtime is the start of a raceJun 17 14:30
oiaohmjust like libc is C runtime.Jun 17 14:30
MinceRoiaohm: you could link it statically if it was a problemJun 17 14:30
ThistleWebafter the starter gun goes offJun 17 14:30
MinceRoiaohm: also, vala needs glibJun 17 14:30
oiaohmMinceR: lot of functions in libstdc++ could solve out to lower.Jun 17 14:30
oiaohmIe C functions.Jun 17 14:30
MinceRthat's an implementation detail.Jun 17 14:30
MinceRalso, glib provides wrappers to libc functions too.Jun 17 14:31
oiaohmRemember I said when someone makes a complier that works for it my point of view of it alters.Jun 17 14:31
oiaohmvala has the option of still going straight to C MinceR if wanted.Jun 17 14:31
oiaohmvala is mostly using the gobject system to pick up funtionality.Jun 17 14:32
MinceRand the gobject system is a part of glib, isn't it?Jun 17 14:33
oiaohmvala is still using prexisting libs.Jun 17 14:33
oiaohmgobject system is a design.Jun 17 14:33
MinceRc is using preexisting libs, too -- libc and libstdc++ :)Jun 17 14:33
oiaohmYou don't need glib to use it.Jun 17 14:33
MinceRno support functions?Jun 17 14:33
oiaohmIts like a windows com object.Jun 17 14:33
oiaohmc does not use libstdc++ only c++ uses libstdc++.Jun 17 14:34
oiaohmvala has avoided needing any new functions MinceR.Jun 17 14:34
oiaohmIts used where able everything that existed when it was designed.Jun 17 14:35
MinceRand how well does it handle abstract data structures like hash tables without glib?Jun 17 14:35
MinceR(assuming that libstdc++ includes STL bits, for example)Jun 17 14:35
neighborleeoh btw..stilll no ecma response..Sam just verified to me..he sent message I believe around 4/29 so its going on 2 months almost.Jun 17 14:35
neighborleeI guess they have to goto cellar to find license :) <or some space station>Jun 17 14:36
oiaohmglib is not the only lib that can do those functions MinceR.Jun 17 14:36
polywafflethis whole interoperability and cross platform thing for me is beyond a joke reallyJun 17 14:36
oiaohmThat is the thing about vala the language is like C it is not designed locked to anything MinceR.Jun 17 14:36
oiaohmC you change the libc or don't have it you can still use C as it design was intentend.Jun 17 14:37
oiaohmSame with vala.Jun 17 14:37
oiaohmGood language designs don't bind themselves into stuff.Jun 17 14:38
MinceRoiaohm: btw can you show that ada is faster than c++Jun 17 14:38
MinceR?Jun 17 14:38
MinceRthe benchmark i've found shows it losing to c++ in all testsJun 17 14:38
MinceR 17 14:38
MinceRwait, i think i'm misinterpreting the tableJun 17 14:39
MinceRit did lose in execution time in all testsJun 17 14:40
MinceRby a large marginJun 17 14:40
MinceRmemory use shows a wide variance both ways.Jun 17 14:41
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] Microsoft and Novell Share a Goal of Eliminating Free GNU/Linux, Imposing Software Patents < >Jun 17 14:42
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oiaohmMinceR: there is a reason.  Its a old language.  optimisation tech is no where near as developed as C or C++.  Focus moved away from it when the unrolling loops logical solve threw items were added to compliers.Jun 17 14:44
MinceRC is an old language too, isn't it? :>Jun 17 14:46
ThistleWebbblJun 17 14:46
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oiaohmThere is a difference more focus has been done on it optmiser MinceR.Jun 17 14:48
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oiaohmIf complier was path solving.  gnat gcc and g++ all should run those test inside exactly the same ammount of resources.Jun 17 14:49
oiaohmSince they are all basically the same complier.Jun 17 14:50
MinceRwhich means i still wouldn't see any reason to switch to ada's object system :>Jun 17 14:50
oiaohmYou asked on design.Jun 17 14:51
oiaohmDesign ada has it.  Implement no it don't.Jun 17 14:51
oiaohmThis is the problem sometimes the biggest pig of a langauge can be the fastest just because its optmiser is working the best.Jun 17 14:52
MinceRwhat do you mean by "pig" then?Jun 17 14:52
oiaohmBy design it should be heavy.Jun 17 14:52
MinceRwhy does it matter if the optimizer makes it perform well?Jun 17 14:56
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oiaohm  << This is C and C++ vs each other on different compliers MinceRJun 17 14:59
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oiaohmgcc gets it tail kicked completely MinceR.Jun 17 15:00
oiaohmIts not a language difference its pure optimiser.Jun 17 15:00
MinceRdifferences existing between different compilers doesn't mean that there are no differences between languages.Jun 17 15:03
oiaohmThis is the problem.Jun 17 15:03
oiaohmThere are differences between languages.Jun 17 15:04
oiaohmBut when it comes down to it the final decider is the optmiser.Jun 17 15:04
MinceRan object system can well mean that there's more or less overhead due to the amount of administration requiredJun 17 15:04
oiaohmA complier with a good solve could effectively remove the object system if its not required.Jun 17 15:05
MinceRfor example, python's object system keeps object members in a dictionaryJun 17 15:05
MinceRif it's not required. but it often is.Jun 17 15:05
MinceRand there are limits to what a real optimizer can do :)Jun 17 15:05
oiaohmYes and no.Jun 17 15:06
oiaohmIts more a limitation on what we can code a optimizer to detect.Jun 17 15:07
oiaohmand time.Jun 17 15:07
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] SCO is Not Rescued Yet, But Group with Microsoft Connections Waves Money < >Jun 17 15:07
oiaohmThere are still lots of methods of optimisation gcc does not have.Jun 17 15:07
oiaohmThat can make massive difference to results.Jun 17 15:08
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oiaohmLike gcc cannot solve threw libs.   Cannot whole program optmise.  These really limit and cause lot of performance loses.Jun 17 15:09
oiaohmThere are other compliers like gcc than can do both.Jun 17 15:10
oiaohmReally MinceR we don't know what the limit of a real optimizer is.  No one has built a optimizer with every feature invented yet.Jun 17 15:12
MinceRsome external links would be a natural limitJun 17 15:12
MinceRafter all if you don't know what code interacts with yours through memory, you can't change the interfaceJun 17 15:12
MinceRfor example, an object passed to/from a shared libraryJun 17 15:13
oiaohmSolve threw to shared library does allow a lot of things.  Like changing the function called in the library if there is a better one to use or bipassing the library if it will be faster.Jun 17 15:14
oiaohmThis is the issue even at the call level we have not fully seen what a optmiser can do.Jun 17 15:15 most likely have a limit on provided interfaces.  But program using them where does the optimiser have to stop.Jun 17 15:16
MinceRand then you'll have a nice crash once you do a minor version upgrade on the shared library. :>Jun 17 15:16
MinceR(except that such things will break anyway on windows due to their braindead way of handling DLLs)Jun 17 15:16
oiaohmCurrently printf("hello") in gcc will swap to puts("hello")Jun 17 15:18
oiaohmDifference gets to avoid printf scanning string.Jun 17 15:18
oiaohmSo faster.Jun 17 15:19
oiaohmThere would be a lot of calls used that could be swapped like this.Jun 17 15:19
MinceRthat would do nothing to objects being passedJun 17 15:19
oiaohmsqrt(4) being replace with 2.Jun 17 15:20
oiaohmSo call was never done.Jun 17 15:20
oiaohmthere are also a lot of them.Jun 17 15:20
oiaohmThis is what I am getting at there are a lot areas we are not solving out yet.Jun 17 15:21
oiaohmThese are like baby step solves once we can do them we can go after more complex ones.Jun 17 15:22
MinceRyou still can't optimize out the handling of public interfaces.Jun 17 15:23
MinceRas long as the function call still needs to happen.Jun 17 15:23
MinceRwhich means that the way the object system works still matterrsJun 17 15:24
MinceRs/rr/r/Jun 17 15:24
oiaohmBut a true solve out could reduce the difference between C doing oop and c++.Jun 17 15:26
oiaohmSince code paths would be locatable.Jun 17 15:26
oiaohmFlaw finders already can find the code paths.   Even in the object system inside a program there is room for smarter handling.Jun 17 15:28
oiaohmLike working out the complete object struct did not need to be passed to a function because only 1 var was required.Jun 17 15:29
oiaohmthis kind of high level aware optimiser does not exist.Jun 17 15:29
MinceRi still doubt you can do that across a shared library interface.Jun 17 15:30
oiaohmIn shared libs it would be detection of releated functions.Jun 17 15:30
oiaohmAnd using the most suitable functions.Jun 17 15:31
oiaohmThis still could mean avoiding sending the complete object struct accross if it really was not required.Jun 17 15:31
oiaohmGood example in ada and gcc and it explains why it slower than it should.  You do a print function it goes to a wraper function that don't solve out to a printf or a putsJun 17 15:33
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oiaohmIf you were truly solving through everything in the print function is predictable.Jun 17 15:33
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oiaohmThis is how come those compares are not exactly that valid.Jun 17 15:34
oiaohmLot of languages are competing with 1 hand tied behind there back.Jun 17 15:34
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splosionEww. Article on cnet about Android running faster than Windows 7. Well duh. Still about 50% of the comments are from people denying this. Gartner said so, is the apparent reason whyJun 17 15:44
MinceRlolJun 17 15:45
schestowitzCNET makes me illJun 17 15:45
schestowitzIt even got worse over time, AFAICTJun 17 15:45
splosionand people saying, "these chips can't run rich operating systems like windows. it's a shame!" what the fuck is this shit? What is a rich operating system?Jun 17 15:45
schestowitzI read CNET for over a year (like 50 items/day)Jun 17 15:46
schestowitzsplosion: fug-get itJun 17 15:46
schestowitzIt's AstroTurfedJun 17 15:46
schestowitzPR agentsJun 17 15:46
schestowitzZDNet toopJun 17 15:46
schestowitz*tooJun 17 15:46
schestowitzThere's evidenceJun 17 15:46
schestowitzLet those sites rot like /., which suffers similarlyJun 17 15:46
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] Who Sponsored Forrester’s Latest Attack on Free Software? < >Jun 17 15:47
splosion/. hasn't been so bad latelyJun 17 15:47
EruaranhelloJun 17 15:48
splosionstill, browsing at -1 is *chore*Jun 17 15:48
MinceRsplosion: it's rich because it _makes_ them rich ;)Jun 17 15:49
schestowitzI was gonna say that tooJun 17 15:49
schestowitzBeat me to itJun 17 15:49
schestowitzLike "healthy" means fatJun 17 15:50
MinceRi've given up on browsing at -1 already, even when i have modpointsJun 17 15:50
MinceRit undid my moderation when i posted even though i posted as ACJun 17 15:50
MinceRthat pissed me offJun 17 15:50
splosionMinceR: I sometimes spot comments modded as trolls that aren't trolls at all. And I don't know how, but I seem to get mod points every week. I'd like to know how that worksJun 17 15:51
MinceRi know, i just stopped caringJun 17 15:51
splosiontis easyJun 17 15:52
DaemonMDVIE 8 ads on HuluJun 17 15:55
DaemonMDVfull blown commercials evenJun 17 15:55
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splosionOpera consuming 207mb of ram. Hrmm. Still I've had this browser open since yesterday. Firefox would be edging into my swapspace if I had left it on that longJun 17 15:57
splosionFirefox's memory leaks make me sadJun 17 15:57
MinceRall browsers suckJun 17 15:57
splosionI want Chrome's speed, Opera's slickness, Firefox's addons and Safari's HTML5 capabilities. :(Jun 17 15:58
MinceRi want Links2's speed and Opera's and Firefox's capabilitiesJun 17 15:58
splosionhahJun 17 15:59
DaemonMDVFirefox guzzles as much or moreJun 17 16:01
DaemonMDVand it's slower to render pagesJun 17 16:02
DaemonMDV:DJun 17 16:02
splosionit isJun 17 16:02
splosionHoping they manage to do something about thatJun 17 16:03
*DaemonMDV ties MinceR up and makes him watch that IE 8 commercial with the fat chick and the lolcatsJun 17 16:03
*MinceR minces DaemonMDV Jun 17 16:03
splosionlol. I should make more use of my nick's verb capabilities.Jun 17 16:04
*liberfiasco is now known as liberviscoJun 17 16:05
schestowitzHeh.Jun 17 16:06
schestowitz"Gnote lacks 66% of Tomboy's language support (5 versus 15), and 70% of Tomboy's extensions (4 versus 13). " --directhex 17 16:06
trmancosó?Jun 17 16:06
trmancoGnote is not TomboyJun 17 16:06
MinceRthey forgot the part ", and 100% of Tomboy's patent issues (0 versus several)." or something like that.Jun 17 16:08
DaemonMDVand who cares?Jun 17 16:11
DaemonMDVit's a widgetJun 17 16:11
DaemonMDVa widget designed to waste RAMJun 17 16:11
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] New Push for Gnote in Ubuntu by Default < >Jun 17 16:12
trmanco1 MB of ram, so who cares?Jun 17 16:12
DaemonMDVTomboy takes about 40Jun 17 16:12
trmancoI'm talking minimums, not maxJun 17 16:13
DaemonMDVif Ubuntu wants to get themselves in legal trouble, the least they could do is throw in something usefulJun 17 16:13
DaemonMDVlike AAC codecsJun 17 16:13
DaemonMDV:)Jun 17 16:13
trmancohehJun 17 16:13
DaemonMDVbut a note-taking widget?Jun 17 16:13
DaemonMDVshitJun 17 16:13
splosionI wonder. How do distros such as Mint get away with putting media codecs into the default install?Jun 17 16:14
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DaemonMDVif Ubuntu was a burglar, they'd have skipped the 42" plasma television to get caught heisting the dog's chew toyJun 17 16:14
DaemonMDV:DJun 17 16:14
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Np237hey thereJun 17 16:18
splosionSlingshot is such an addictive gameJun 17 16:18
splosionAnd it's so satisfying when you kill the other player with about 2 seconds left on the time-outJun 17 16:19
Np237I’ve thought again of all the Mono and Tomboy thing, and I thought of a fair solutionJun 17 16:20
splosionoohJun 17 16:20
Np237since you obviously don’t want Mono in DebianJun 17 16:20
Np237while Microsoft obviously wants it in DebianJun 17 16:20
Np237I propose that you gather the same amount of money that Microsoft paid me for doing this changeJun 17 16:21
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Np237after that I’ll think of reverting itJun 17 16:21
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MinceRi propose that they bar you from affecting debian packagesJun 17 16:23
MinceRand remove monoJun 17 16:23
DaemonMDVas usual, the only decent audio tools are for WindowsJun 17 16:23
DaemonMDVunless I feel like dicking around with this Fisher Price bullshitJun 17 16:24
DaemonMDVWine to the rescueJun 17 16:24
MinceRfisher price like xp and vista? :>Jun 17 16:24
DaemonMDVno, worseJun 17 16:24
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MinceRfisher price like crApple then?Jun 17 16:24
DaemonMDVas in, FAAC can go up to 500k, but the bullshit GNOME utilities only let you go up to 200kJun 17 16:25
splosionOne of these might be somewhat useful to you, DaemonMDV 17 16:25
MinceR<random> mine goes to 11! </random>Jun 17 16:25
DaemonMDVthe only way they can make Vorbis seem better is to cripple AACJun 17 16:25
splosionoh, encodingJun 17 16:25
Np237DaemonMDV: if you want 500k, why not using flac or mp3?Jun 17 16:25
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splosionuse ffmpeg dawgJun 17 16:25
DaemonMDVcause it's not CBRJun 17 16:26
Np237DaemonMDV: MP3 isJun 17 16:26
DaemonMDVthe encoder still has the call over what bitrate to use per frameJun 17 16:26
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Np237and at high bitrates MP3 beats everything else out thereJun 17 16:26
DaemonMDVyou end up with files that aren't that much larger than 320k MP3Jun 17 16:26
DaemonMDVbut sound a lot betterJun 17 16:26
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Np237oh, I see, you’re one of those guys who think they can make a difference between 320k MP3 and losslessJun 17 16:27
DaemonMDVit's not that hard with most codecsJun 17 16:27
DaemonMDVVorbis and WMA are the worstJun 17 16:28
DaemonMDVMP3 is alrightJun 17 16:28
Np237I’m talking of a good encoder, like LAME or Vorbis with latest improvementsJun 17 16:28
DaemonMDVyayJun 17 16:28
DaemonMDVnew FirefoxJun 17 16:28
DaemonMDVtook them long enoughJun 17 16:28
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DaemonMDVReason for update: Security vulnerabilities have been discovered in previous versions, and corrected in the latest Mozilla Firefox 3.x, version 3.0.10. (CVE-2009-1302, CVE-2009-1303, CVE-2009-1304, CVE-2009-1305, CVE-2009-0652, CVE-2009-1306, CVE-2009-1307, CVE-2009-1308, CVE-2009-1309, CVE-2009-1310, CVE-2009-1311, CVE-2009-1312, CVE-2009-1313)Jun 17 16:28
DaemonMDVhehJun 17 16:29
DaemonMDVFirefox ExplorerJun 17 16:29
DaemonMDV:PJun 17 16:29
DaemonMDVthey should just rename it that to honor all the security problemsJun 17 16:29
Np237I’m quite disappointed that you people are not interested in my proposal, thoughJun 17 16:29
Np237don’t you want Mono out of Debian ?Jun 17 16:29
splosionNp237: My connection asploded just before you said it. sozJun 17 16:30
*MinceR wonders how DaemonMDV managed to make mp3 better than vorbis in his mindJun 17 16:30
MinceRNp237: i think my proposal is better.Jun 17 16:30
neighborleeNp237, Who should take you seriously , given the language you have maintained ?Jun 17 16:30
neighborleeMinceR, dittoJun 17 16:30
Np237MinceR: unfortunately this is only an option for Debian developers, and you are not oneJun 17 16:31
Np237this is why my proposal is fairer, since it is available to anyoneJun 17 16:31
MinceRNp237: we'll see what debian developers think, then.Jun 17 16:31
MinceRNp237: your proposal is pretty much just an unabashed attempt to squeeze more bribes out of both sides.Jun 17 16:32
MinceRif debian operates on bribes now then i don't see why anyone should care about it.Jun 17 16:32
Np237MinceR: obviously I’m in the good position to ask for thoseJun 17 16:33
MinceRit will just wither on its own.Jun 17 16:33
splosionDaemonMDV: anyway. "ffmpeg -i someshit.blah -acodec libfaac -ab 500k output.blah" there. tools. you has themJun 17 16:33
MinceRNp237: if you're in a good position to ask for those then debian is already doomed.Jun 17 16:33
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MinceRNp237: in which case i'll just watch it die instead of paying the bribe and then watching it die anyway.Jun 17 16:33
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MinceRNp237: remember that debian was founded on the idea of free software and at least until now it mattered.Jun 17 16:33
Np237MinceR: yeah, and even RMS will tell you that the possibility to pay for free software is fundamentalJun 17 16:34
neighborleethankfullly just as in world politics, normal peoples views are quite capable of making change, to think otherwise is an indication of a mindset not unlike the pharasies, and we know how far THEY got dont weJun 17 16:34
Np237free software != freewareJun 17 16:34
MinceRNp237: i can't verify how much authority you have on debian, so i can't tell if you're just plain lying to us.Jun 17 16:34
MinceRNp237: patent-encumbered software is not free software.Jun 17 16:34
MinceRNp237: RMS will tell you that.Jun 17 16:34
Np237fortunately I live in a country where we piss everyday on software patentsJun 17 16:35
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_Hicham_Hi All!Jun 17 16:35
MinceRyou'll find that not all debian users and developers doJun 17 16:35
neighborleeNp237, Your concern for your fellow human, is touching.Jun 17 16:35
_Hicham_MinceR : what does debian users do?Jun 17 16:36
MinceR175154 < Np237> fortunately I live in a country where we piss everyday on software patentsJun 17 16:36
Np237MinceR: anyway, if you don’t want to pay (too bad, that’s the easiest way) you can try to find another Debian developer that will appeal to the Technical committeeJun 17 16:36
Np237they have the power to force me to revert the changeJun 17 16:36
MinceRNp237: i'll just wait and see what happens.Jun 17 16:36
Np237MinceR: bummerJun 17 16:36
MinceRNp237: and i'll draw the conclusions.Jun 17 16:37
Np237MinceR: you’re likely to see many things happen, but probably not to your liking thenJun 17 16:37
MinceRNp237: it shouldn't be necessary for me to say anything for debian's leaders to notice what you're up to and to stop you.Jun 17 16:38
DaemonMDVsplosion: How does that scale to thousands of files? :DJun 17 16:38
splosionDaemonMDV: that's why we use shell scripts!Jun 17 16:38
Np237MinceR: what should they stop me for?Jun 17 16:38
MinceRNp237: not really, i'll only see one thing happen that isn't to my liking and then i'll just write it off.Jun 17 16:38
Np237duuuuuuuuh that sounds scaryJun 17 16:38
splosionor an app like winff if you insist on a gui. quick stuffJun 17 16:39
MinceRNp237: compromising the ideals behind the project for a bribe?Jun 17 16:39
MinceRNp237: and even publicly admitting it?Jun 17 16:39
MinceRNp237: but i think you're just trollingJun 17 16:39
Np237nah, I can’t do it publiclyJun 17 16:39
MinceRwe get loads of trolls every dayJun 17 16:39
Np237that’s why I came to IRC to talk about it firstJun 17 16:39
MinceRso your next interesting idea is that a publicly logged IRC channel almost anyone can join is somehow not publicJun 17 16:40
DaemonMDVnope, I have a $1,000 machine to use as a console from 1970Jun 17 16:40
DaemonMDV:DJun 17 16:40
Np237MinceR: it’s publicly logged ?????Jun 17 16:40
MinceRi think we're going to see something hilarious from you any time nowJun 17 16:40
MinceRNp237: can you read the topic?Jun 17 16:40
MinceRNp237: also, have you seen ?Jun 17 16:41
Np237erm, is it possible to remove the lines where I talked from the log then?Jun 17 16:41
MinceRyou'll have to ask schestowitz about that.Jun 17 16:42
MinceRit doesn't make any difference thoughJun 17 16:42
MinceRanyone on an irc channel can log itJun 17 16:42
MinceRand publish the logJun 17 16:42
MinceRautomatic logging is a commonly used featureJun 17 16:42
splosionDaemonMDV: blam! 17 16:43
MinceRanyway, why would you want them to be removed?Jun 17 16:43
MinceRsplosion: what's that?Jun 17 16:43
splosionMinceR: a front-end to ffmpeg that doesn't suckJun 17 16:44
MinceRicJun 17 16:44
Np237MinceR: because I talked about things that aren’t supposed to be publicJun 17 16:44
MinceRNp237: well, it's too late nowJun 17 16:44
MinceRthe people who are here have seen it allJun 17 16:44
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DaemonMDVlove how nothing on Linux warns you about dependencies til it fails and segfaultsJun 17 16:45
DaemonMDVthat's always a nice surpriseJun 17 16:46
MinceRbullshitJun 17 16:46
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_Hicham_DaemonMDV can't be linked to any existing libraryJun 17 16:46
DaemonMDVI guess that's why this thing didn't mention it needed xterm til it went to start encoding, couldn't find itJun 17 16:46
DaemonMDVand crashedJun 17 16:46
DaemonMDVthen it ignores the parameters I gave itJun 17 16:48
MinceRNp237: i still think you're just trolling thoughJun 17 16:48
DaemonMDVand proceeds to encode everythign at 112k anywayJun 17 16:48
splosionDaemonMDV: make your own presetsJun 17 16:48
DaemonMDVI didJun 17 16:48
splosionsucks to be you!Jun 17 16:48
DaemonMDVoh, you have to hit Add/Update, I got confused and hit SaveJun 17 16:48
splosionhahaJun 17 16:49
DaemonMDVgee, I guess user abuse concepts weren't lost on these peopleJun 17 16:49
Np237MinceR: I’m not trolling, it could really cause me some troubleJun 17 16:50
splosionI can't remember the ffmpeg options to enable spreading the encoding over all the cores your processor may have. I know they're not in any of the presets, though. that'll speed things up a lotJun 17 16:50
MinceRNp237: in that case, perhaps we could make a deal after allJun 17 16:50
DaemonMDV*and it kills the tags in the FLAC fileJun 17 16:50
DaemonMDVgreatJun 17 16:50
MinceRyou'd have to make a deal with everyone present of courseJun 17 16:50
DaemonMDVthis is all kinds of fun :PJun 17 16:50
splosionDaemonMDV: oh yeah. I forgot about that. ffmpeg doesn't give a shit about your tags. sorry dudeJun 17 16:51
splosion:(Jun 17 16:51
MinceRNp237: something along the lines of 1) you'll remove mono as a dependency 2) you'll pay everyone of us as much as m$ paid you 3) you'll remove yourself from the debian project permanently and in exchange we'll forget what happened and remove it from our log files :>Jun 17 16:51
Np237sorry I don’t have that much moneyJun 17 16:52
Np237could you share what MS gave me among yourselves?Jun 17 16:52
MinceRi can only speak for myselfJun 17 16:53
DaemonMDVthis is so god damned frustratingJun 17 16:53
Np237MinceR: I need to be sure that at least the logs won’t be published on BNJun 17 16:54
DaemonMDVwould it kill any Linux programmer to write an interface that doesn't compare favorable with being put in an iron maiden?Jun 17 16:54
MinceRNp237: only schestowitz can decide that.Jun 17 16:54
splosionDaemonMDV: if I had the need to encode four billion CDs I'd probably write a bash script or maybe something python to automate everything with tags and stuff. but as I don't need to do that I don't have the energy. Sorry!Jun 17 16:54
MinceRit's his siteJun 17 16:54
MinceR(well, others are involved too but i'm not sure if i can see them now)Jun 17 16:55
neighborleeDaemonMDV, lolJun 17 16:55
neighborleeDaemonMDV, cute reference ;)),,like it ;)Jun 17 16:55
neighborleeDaemonMDV, haJun 17 16:55
DaemonMDVseriously, there's the GNOME applet that you can use but has been crippled to favor total simplicityJun 17 16:55
DaemonMDVthen there's the gulag of WinFFJun 17 16:56
DaemonMDV:DJun 17 16:56
splosionhahaJun 17 16:56
Np237MinceR: fine, could you ask him when he gets back? I have to go hide this fact to MS now, please let me know by emailJun 17 16:56
neighborleeDaemonMDV, gnome crippleware, simpleware..your kidding me !Jun 17 16:56
DaemonMDVwhere the FUCK is the Linux version of BonkEnc or CDEx?Jun 17 16:56
MinceRNp237: why can't you wait for him to get back?Jun 17 16:56
neighborleeDaemonMDV, oh wait ok gotcha..yeah what linus said..true that, been there,done THAT ;)Jun 17 16:56
DaemonMDVI should not have to run things in Wine to get an interface meant for humansJun 17 16:56
MinceRalso, he probably has a public email address or somethingJun 17 16:57
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-BNc/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] Switzerland and the UK Under Fire for Perpetual Microsoft Engagements < >Jun 17 16:57
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MinceRalso there's /msg and MemoServJun 17 16:57
MinceRalso note that any of us present at the time could have logged everything and could publish the log independently of schestowitz or BNJun 17 16:58
neighborleeDaemonMDV, wine is handy, but I try to avoid it ive had fairly bad luck with it o'er time...but sure it can be handy in pinch ;)Jun 17 16:58
DaemonMDVsee, there's setting 5 in FAAC which means something totally different than in FFMpegJun 17 16:58
DaemonMDVthen in FFMpeg you seem to be stuck with Average BitrateJun 17 16:58
DaemonMDVwhere FAAC has a quality settingJun 17 16:58
DaemonMDVbut the GNOME frontend to FAAC is totally wrongJun 17 16:59
Np237MinceR: I have to go now to see my grandmother and carry her a cake and a little pot of butterJun 17 16:59
splosiondon't forget ffmpeg has about ten bazillion options. You can change just about anythingJun 17 16:59
DaemonMDVand the highest setting possible in that (~256k) ends up being more like ~200kJun 17 16:59
DaemonMDVwhich is fucking stupidJun 17 16:59
DaemonMDVso again, load Wine, run Nero AAC, be happyJun 17 16:59
DaemonMDVmasturbate with time savedJun 17 17:00
DaemonMDVwonder why I am not buying Windows 7Jun 17 17:00
neighborleeMinceR, he's worried about a log here, when there is plenty of his foul mouth ramblings to be had surfing ?Jun 17 17:00
MinceRDaemonMDV: wonder why you're still hereJun 17 17:00
neighborleeMinceR, comic relief like no otherJun 17 17:00
MinceRneighborlee: i think he's just trollingJun 17 17:00
neighborleeDaemonMDV, and you know I meant that lovingly; ;0-Jun 17 17:00
MinceRperhaps he believes we believe all thatJun 17 17:00
DaemonMDVand if you edit the gconf to something SOundConvertor does not understand it falls back to 128kJun 17 17:01
neighborleeMinceR, I ditto that ma friendJun 17 17:01
DaemonMDVeven though it's a valid setting for FAACJun 17 17:01
DaemonMDVwhy does all free software just totally fail to work together?Jun 17 17:01
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neighborleeMinceR, not likely...Jun 17 17:01
DaemonMDVWhy does it all so closely resemble what I have described?Jun 17 17:01
neighborleeMinceR, doesnt matter..its easy to affect change, you just have to talk to the right people.Jun 17 17:02
splosionHuh. Someone's already made a python script called dir2ogg. I'll see about botching it to do faac at whatever-the-hell-you-like bitrate. The tag stuff in here looks good. preserves tags. niceJun 17 17:02
DaemonMDVthe only way to get a decent AAC file is to run Windows software in WineJun 17 17:02
DaemonMDVotherwise you'll spend all day fucking around with everything Linux-native and wondering why none of it works rightJun 17 17:03
neighborleeDaemonMDV, well windows has been around a fair bit duplicate all there is in that land may take sometime anything in life YMMVJun 17 17:03
neighborleeDaemonMDV, but man we're here for you....Jun 17 17:03
DaemonMDVoh, but they never cripple VorbisJun 17 17:03
DaemonMDVthey never doJun 17 17:03
DaemonMDVevery setting Vorbis is capable of is ALWAYS in the GUIJun 17 17:04
DaemonMDV*ALWAYS*Jun 17 17:04
DaemonMDVthey artificially handicap competing formatsJun 17 17:04
splosionhow about the LDE apps?Jun 17 17:04
splosionKDEJun 17 17:04
MinceRit's easy to synchronize free software projectsJun 17 17:04
MinceRwith all the communication and cooperation going onJun 17 17:04
DaemonMDVthey also don't sabotage LAME/MP3 because too many users use that and would bitchJun 17 17:04
DaemonMDVso they hide WMA encoding even though you can do it if you have the right backendJun 17 17:05
MinceRalso probably less people care about AACJun 17 17:05
DaemonMDVand they cripple AACJun 17 17:05
_Hicham_u really should work on providing a good quality GUI for AAC encodingJun 17 17:05
_Hicham_can u start that project?Jun 17 17:05
DaemonMDVyeah, just help me find a recursive acronym for GNOME Is Not GNOMEJun 17 17:06
DaemonMDVand then we'll set out to unfuck this whole god damned thingJun 17 17:06
DaemonMDV:DJun 17 17:06
MinceRGING Is Not GING?Jun 17 17:07
_Hicham_it is not that difficultJun 17 17:07
_Hicham_do u have some experience in GTK programming?Jun 17 17:07
DaemonMDVlet's rewrite GNOME in GTK#Jun 17 17:07
DaemonMDVhave Mono just be at the heart of all of itJun 17 17:08
_Hicham_they already begun thatJun 17 17:08
_Hicham_it is called ValaJun 17 17:08
_Hicham_a C# like languageJun 17 17:08
DaemonMDVand then we can write the file manager in VB.NetJun 17 17:08
_Hicham_why notJun 17 17:08
_Hicham_Mono's idea is not newJun 17 17:08
splosionThe commandline tools to do the stuff DaemonMDV wants already exist. I'm looking through a bunch of things that do just that. It wouldn't be too difficult to do some sort of GTK interface as a front-endJun 17 17:09
DaemonMDVI just want a frontend to AAC that can deal with all the options you can pass to itJun 17 17:09
DaemonMDV*FAAC that isJun 17 17:09
DaemonMDVor failing that, something that can pass stuff to Nero AAC for LinuxJun 17 17:10
MinceRDaemonMDV: i know one, it's called gnome-terminal ;)Jun 17 17:10
DaemonMDVnoJun 17 17:10
MinceRkommander might work tooJun 17 17:10
DaemonMDVcause Nero has no idea what a FLAC file isJun 17 17:10
DaemonMDVso I'd have to decompress them all to WAV or AIFF firstJun 17 17:11
MinceRseriously, i don't even use a frontend for oggencJun 17 17:11
MinceRor flacJun 17 17:11
MinceRyou could write a shell scriptJun 17 17:11
DaemonMDVseems like the easiest way to make the whole AAC encoding process in Linux work is to use Windows softwreJun 17 17:12
MinceR"oh noes, i can't type one or two commands to decode FLAC and encode the result in AAC! it's so difficult!"Jun 17 17:14
DaemonMDVtoo much workJun 17 17:14
DaemonMDVwould take forever to do this many files by handJun 17 17:14
MinceRindeedJun 17 17:14
MinceRso much work in fact, it would be more work than the whining you've done so far about it :>Jun 17 17:15
splosionI think you've fundamentally missed the point of shell scriptsJun 17 17:15
DaemonMDVI'd have to decompress the FLAC files, OK there's GUI for that in Linux, then one by one I'd have to convert the WAV to AACJun 17 17:15
MinceR:)Jun 17 17:15
DaemonMDVthen I'd have to re-tag all of themJun 17 17:15
MinceRor you could write a for loop in bashJun 17 17:15
MinceReven on a single command lineJun 17 17:15
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MinceR(or in a shell script)Jun 17 17:16
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] Intellectual Monopoly Roundup: Comedy or Farce? < >Jun 17 17:17
neighborleeall fun makes lee a dull poor the fields!Jun 17 17:17
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splosionflac files basically use idv3 tags, right?Jun 17 17:19
splosionif so, then yes, you could encode every flac on your hard drive as an m4a or wma or whatever the hell you wish and preserve the tags, and you could do it one line in a terminalJun 17 17:20
splosiondiscounting about 10 wordwrapsJun 17 17:21
splosionand violating about a million patentsJun 17 17:21
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_Hicham_DaemonMDV using a shell script?Jun 17 17:22
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[davidgerard] dying of plant bukkake. tree spaff up nose and in eyes. send more loratadine and sudafed.Jun 17 17:22
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[davidgerard] Call for ideas again: what news stories are filling you with telly-out-the-window RAAAGE? tell me for 17 17:22
MinceR183820 < splosion> and violating about a million patentsJun 17 17:23
MinceR:DJun 17 17:23
_Hicham_I don't know why this DaemonMDV is so obsessed with encodingJun 17 17:23
*DaemonMDV feeds _Hicham_ to Vorbis and watches it chew on his detailsJun 17 17:26
DaemonMDV:PJun 17 17:26
_Hicham_are u using a GUI?Jun 17 17:27
EruaranHuge street protests continue in IranJun 17 17:27
EruaranThis uploaded to utube about an hour ago: 17 17:27
DaemonMDVgood thing I'm not in Iran and that I have no reason to careJun 17 17:28
DaemonMDVif they're that pissed off, they'll revolt and take down Ayatollah CockamamieJun 17 17:28
DaemonMDVonce and for allJun 17 17:28
DaemonMDV:)Jun 17 17:28
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[omar_s_hafez] Check this song out on #JamLegend, Heads Up, Hearts Down by I Fight Dragons 17 17:37
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[omar_s_hafez] Just found a new amazing website! It's called JamLegend. You should check it out! www.jamlegend.comJun 17 17:37
schestowitzNew comment @ 17 17:40
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schestowitz====Quote >Jun 17 17:40
schestowitzI believe the question of the pro-Microsoft mole that brought us the Mono infection can be described just by giving his name:Jun 17 17:40
schestowitzMiguel de Icaza.Jun 17 17:40
schestowitzHe's a proven Microsoft shill, and he's even called OOXML a "superb standard."Jun 17 17:40
schestowitzAnd yes, according to Mono's Wikipedia article, he's the creator of this disease fashioned against FOSS:Jun 17 17:40
schestowitz"Miguel de Icaza became interested in .NET technology as soon as the .NET documents were released in December 2000." - 17 17:40
schestowitzAs a long-time developer of open source software, myself, I can already tell you I did *not* see the appeal in .NET, and frankly I saw the sort of damage projects like Mono could do because of clueless idiots like de Icaza.Jun 17 17:40
schestowitzActually, I think de Icaza would wet his pants with joy if Microsoft actually WERE to suddenly have a controlling interest in Linux, since he was such a big fan of .NET and OOXML.Jun 17 17:40
schestowitz < Quote=======Jun 17 17:40
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DaemonMDVwell, I found a solution I thinkJun 17 17:45
DaemonMDVsomething called aTunes can act as a front end to NeroJun 17 17:45
DaemonMDVbut I have to pull in a bunch of Java bullshit to use itJun 17 17:45
DaemonMDVoh wellJun 17 17:45
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[astralknight] Screenshots with Linux/Xfce : 17 17:47
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[astralknight] Native Linux Nintendo Emulation for Palm Pre: 17 17:52
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[astralknight] peek: profiling yourself: 17 17:52
_Hicham_you are very proficient in JavaJun 17 17:54
_Hicham_it is not a problem for uJun 17 17:54
DaemonMDVhmm, gave up on thatJun 17 17:54
DaemonMDVlike all stuff written in JAVAJun 17 17:55
DaemonMDVway too bloated and laggyJun 17 17:55
DaemonMDVFoobar 2000 in Wine is still fasterJun 17 17:55
_Hicham_public static void main(String[] arg){ system.out.writeln("Mr DaemonFC, are u idiot?");}Jun 17 17:57
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schestowitzHe's nymshifting again. Ryan, if you keep changing names, you'll be banned. You were told this by people who try to /ignore you.Jun 17 18:02
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] Patents Roundup: Where Microsoft Stands < >Jun 17 18:02
schestowitz Now, that's a relief.Jun 17 18:03
schestowitzDelivered though from Microsoft PR (their CNET puppet)Jun 17 18:03
DaemonMDVAttention fucktards: /ignore *!* 17 18:03
DaemonMDVhave a nice dayJun 17 18:03
DaemonMDV:)Jun 17 18:03
schestowitzMichael's review gets some press coverage: 17 18:04
schestowitzWatch your mouthJun 17 18:04
schestowitzFrom the very first day you came here you've been dissing LinuxJun 17 18:05
DaemonMDVthey make it needlessly hard to do anything with it just for the sake of doing soJun 17 18:07
DaemonMDVthey don't need to give me lip service about patents and drivers or whateverJun 17 18:08
DaemonMDVjust get out of my way and let me go get themJun 17 18:08
DaemonMDVbut they actively impede my choice to use my softwareJun 17 18:08
DaemonMDVand it angers meJun 17 18:08
DaemonMDVthere's no good reason to block the correct functioning of something the user hasJun 17 18:09
DaemonMDVyou don't have to *give* them what they needJun 17 18:09
DaemonMDVbut why do they go out of their way to block it or cripple it?Jun 17 18:10
DaemonMDVwhy do they have to cripple hardware that the user has just to drive home their point about their stuff?Jun 17 18:10
DaemonMDVif their format is so great, let users come to itJun 17 18:11
schestowitzDigg Wants You To Create More Useful Apps < >Jun 17 18:11
schestowitzDigg is quite useless for news.Jun 17 18:12
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] Folks think they can ban computer chips from being transported. They can't even block drug trafficking.Jun 17 18:12
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] "...State Department revelations that it asked the company to delay maintenance..." 17 18:12
DaemonMDVwhat these free software type projects are doing is usually no better than what they accuse Microsoft or Apple of doingJun 17 18:13
MinceRwhere do they get the money to do that?Jun 17 18:13
DaemonMDVthere's no difference between Microsoft crippling ODF support so you can't really use it and the GNOME project crippling all their transcoding tools to artificially limit AACJun 17 18:14
MinceRand what hardware do they cripple?Jun 17 18:14
DaemonMDVnone at allJun 17 18:14
MinceRexcept things like market share?Jun 17 18:14
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DaemonMDVGNU has penis envy because precisely nobody is using VorbisJun 17 18:14
DaemonMDVso they have to resort to desperation and railroadingJun 17 18:15
MinceRi guess i'll have to tell Epic Games they're nobodyJun 17 18:15
MinceRand Cowon and Rio, tooJun 17 18:15
MinceRand all the websites that use ogg formats to provide video and audioJun 17 18:16
DaemonMDVeven if the device supports it, nobody will use itJun 17 18:16
DaemonMDVbecause nobody knows what a Vorbis file isJun 17 18:16
MinceRso you're nobodyJun 17 18:16
DaemonMDVthey don't market them as Vorbis playersJun 17 18:16
DaemonMDVso nobody will really bother lookingJun 17 18:16
MinceRit's part of the specsJun 17 18:16
MinceRthere's often even an icon showing it offJun 17 18:16
DaemonMDVso do you still have to use MTP to transfer them if you want the device to work properly?Jun 17 18:17
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] Japan Makes Private Copying Illegal 17 18:17
DaemonMDVor do you want to copy over album art and playlists manually?Jun 17 18:17
schestowitzItaly Is The Latest Country To Realize IP Address Alone Does Not ID File Sharers < >Jun 17 18:17
DaemonMDVfolder by folder?Jun 17 18:17
MinceRwhy would i have to use MTP?Jun 17 18:17
splosionHey now, don't blame Linux for lousy MTP support. It was designed that wayJun 17 18:17
DaemonMDVcause MSC mode does not properly integrate expansion cardsJun 17 18:17
DaemonMDVLinux will see them as two storage devicesJun 17 18:18
DaemonMDVand there's the playlists and album artJun 17 18:18
MinceRin general, why would i have to use protocols that were invented only because m$ has a bad case of NIH syndrome?Jun 17 18:18
DaemonMDVand the fact that you can't sync the player in MSC modeJun 17 18:18
MinceRoh noes, i can tell what goes to the expansion card! it's the end of the world!Jun 17 18:18
MinceRit's like i didn't want to decide what goes whereJun 17 18:18
DaemonMDVI don't want to have to care what goes whereJun 17 18:19
DaemonMDVand I don'tJun 17 18:19
MinceRyou can sync file systems pretty well, actuallyJun 17 18:19
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MinceRi guess you like surprises when you remove the expansion cardJun 17 18:20
MinceRbut there's windows for people who like surprises.Jun 17 18:20
DaemonMDVoperating a player in MSC mode is like saving files to your hard disk by specifying which sector of the drive each bit will go toJun 17 18:20
DaemonMDV:DJun 17 18:20
MinceR"surprise! BSOD!"Jun 17 18:20
DaemonMDVsure you can do itJun 17 18:20
MinceRno, it's exactly like saving files to my hard disk, actuallyJun 17 18:20
MinceRworks through a file system all the sameJun 17 18:21
schestowitz "From March 2008 to January 2009, the U.S. Federal Deposit Insurance Corporation (FDIC) spent $7.6 million on public relations and marketing, to "instill confidence in the stability of the insured banking system" and mark the agency's 75th anniversary."Jun 17 18:23
schestowitzShilling for OBAMABANKJun 17 18:24
schestowitz (Trolls and Astroturfers and Shills, Oh My!)Jun 17 18:26
schestowitz'"I am quite certain much of the anti-GNU/Linux campaign is funded by M$ and run by professionals," blogger Robert Pogson told LinuxInsider by email, citing a Boycott Novell article for illustration. "M$ wrote the book on technological evangelism, yet the shills have the nerve to call us zealots."'Jun 17 18:26
MinceRwell, that firefox trick didn't work outJun 17 18:27
MinceRi'll have to try reducing the valueJun 17 18:28
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StraponzHelloJun 17 18:29
schestowitzHeyJun 17 18:29
schestowitzNSA Ill-Suited For Domestic Cybersecurity Role < >Jun 17 18:30
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ChewbaccaSo, how bout that Mark Fink? 17 18:31
splosionI got told to "grow up" when I told a bunch of long-time Linux users on UF who were saying "It's not ready for the desktop" that if they really believed that, they'd uninstall it alreadyJun 17 18:31
splosionChewbacca: ewwwJun 17 18:32
StraponzNo, they'd uninstall XP already.Jun 17 18:32
StraponzHeh.Jun 17 18:32
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] British cops deliver Catch 22 to photographers: you're not allowed to know which areas you're not allowed to photograph < ...Jun 17 18:32
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] Mousavi And Up to 100 Reformers Arrested. Many People Hurt In Riots By Police < >Jun 17 18:32
ChewbaccaI love me a good riot.Jun 17 18:32
schestowitzChewbacca: what about him? That blog post wrongly accuses meJun 17 18:33
StraponzLinux will be ready for the Desktop when 95% of the community stops dualbooting with the evil, horrible MS OS!Jun 17 18:33
Chewbaccaschestowitz: Do you have any proof as to otherwise? The emails have your PGP signature.Jun 17 18:33
ChewbaccaIt almost looks like you've got some kind of personal agenda.Jun 17 18:33
ChewbaccaWhat about your dear friend AstralKnight, whom you've dug for over the past year, but say you don't even know him?Jun 17 18:34
ChewbaccaYour credability is slipping.Jun 17 18:34
splosionoh lawdyJun 17 18:34
ChewbaccaMaybe you should put yourself on the CI on your site.Jun 17 18:34
ChewbaccaAnd put a big fat 0Jun 17 18:34
*magentar has quit (Remote closed the connection)Jun 17 18:34
ChewbaccaFor "NOT CREDIBLE"Jun 17 18:34
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Chewbacca*wookie noises*Jun 17 18:35
*magentar has quit (Remote closed the connection)Jun 17 18:35
ChewbaccaWell?Jun 17 18:35
ChewbaccaCare to speak up on anything?Jun 17 18:36
DaemonMDVwell, I tried the player in MSC mode for shits and gigglesJun 17 18:36
DaemonMDVand it immediately loses the ability to track play order and album artJun 17 18:36
ChewbaccaDaemonMDV: What an exciting life you must have.Jun 17 18:37
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DaemonMDVyes very excitingJun 17 18:37
MinceRDaemonMDV: then your player sucksJun 17 18:38
ChewbaccaIt seems Roy has run into his bedroom to cry for the time being, unable to answer my questions.Jun 17 18:38
ChewbaccaYaaaaay.Jun 17 18:38
DaemonMDVno, it just doesn't officially support AACJun 17 18:38
DaemonMDVbut can play them because MP4 audio is the same as the audio track of an MPEG-4 videoJun 17 18:38
DaemonMDVand the Microsoft database can track play orderJun 17 18:39
ChewbaccaNeat.Jun 17 18:39
DaemonMDVso it ends up supporting it correctly if you use MTP modeJun 17 18:39
DaemonMDVeven though they never claimed supportJun 17 18:39
DaemonMDV:)Jun 17 18:39
schestowitzChewbacca: yes, I have proofJun 17 18:39
schestowitzI postedJun 17 18:39
ChewbaccaOther than self-citations?Jun 17 18:39
schestowitzTo prove have NO relationship is like the whole "proof of God" thingJun 17 18:39
schestowitzHow do you want to me prove this?Jun 17 18:40
schestowitzYou want my E-mail box?Jun 17 18:40
DaemonMDVI have proof Microsoft is planning to blow up AlderaanJun 17 18:40
ChewbaccaThat'd be a start.Jun 17 18:40
schestowitzTo see I never communicted with that man until David asked me to?Jun 17 18:40
DaemonMDVI'm sure I blogged about it last weekJun 17 18:40
DaemonMDVyes, there it is, incontrovertibleJun 17 18:40
DaemonMDV;)Jun 17 18:40
schestowitzChewbacca: you're wasting people's time with wrong accusationsJun 17 18:40
schestowitzEverything I said standsJun 17 18:40
splosionchrist. That desktoplinux site is insaneJun 17 18:41
Chewbaccaschestowitz: You are poisoning the community with shoddy facts that can't hold waterJun 17 18:41
DaemonMDVeven though they are a peaceful people and have no ODFJun 17 18:41
DaemonMDVMicrosoft is making an exampleJun 17 18:41
MinceRDaemonMDV: do you have the plans for the Death Star?Jun 17 18:41
DaemonMDVbecause Dantooine is far too remoteJun 17 18:41
schestowitzChewbacca: you're wasting people's timeJun 17 18:41
DaemonMDVB-)Jun 17 18:41
DaemonMDVOh, but I doJun 17 18:41
DaemonMDV:PJun 17 18:41
schestowitzAnd I don't know who AstralKnight isJun 17 18:41
schestowitzSeems to be reading COLAJun 17 18:41
ChewbaccaLiar.Jun 17 18:41
ChewbaccaYou dugg his posts for nearly a full year on Digg.Jun 17 18:42
ChewbaccaYou at least knew of him.Jun 17 18:42
schestowitzDidn't even know about him until some troll from linsux brought it up hereJun 17 18:42
ChewbaccaI assume he's some lackey of yours.Jun 17 18:42
_Hicham_DaemonMDV will be encoding/decoding for the rest of his lifeJun 17 18:42
schestowitzPeoplel posted links here to his stuffJun 17 18:42
schestowitztrmanco didJun 17 18:42
trmancowhat?Jun 17 18:42
schestowitzChewbacca: he sure follows my stuffJun 17 18:42
DaemonMDVWhat I don't get is why they didn't just blow up Yavin then the moonJun 17 18:42
schestowitzCause I can see it in linkageJun 17 18:43
DaemonMDVinstead they wait for 30 minutes even though the ting can blow up planetsJun 17 18:43
DaemonMDVcause there was a planet blocking themJun 17 18:43
MinceRthey're stupid space nazis ;)Jun 17 18:43
DaemonMDVthat's almost as bad as SignsJun 17 18:43
splosionDaemonMDV: yeah but that would have resulted in a really really cool amazing ending for that filmJun 17 18:43
DaemonMDVwhere water kills them but they go through the effort to conquer a planet that's 3/4ths waterJun 17 18:44
MinceRthough i don't remember what the charging time wasJun 17 18:44
splosionthat cannot happenJun 17 18:44
DaemonMDVnot counting rain or humidityJun 17 18:44
DaemonMDVI knowJun 17 18:44
DaemonMDVGeorge Lucas is a doucheJun 17 18:44
DaemonMDV:PJun 17 18:44
schestowitzDid you know that 80% of ocean trash is plastics? < >Jun 17 18:44
DaemonMDVmakes senseJun 17 18:44
MinceRif it takes more than 30 minutes for the main weapon to charge, it makes sense to wait until they get around the obstacleJun 17 18:44
ChewbaccaDid you know that 90% of what schestowitz says is bullshit?Jun 17 18:44
DaemonMDVlight, buoyant, picked up by currentsJun 17 18:44
ChewbaccaMakes sense.Jun 17 18:45
splosionschestowitz: there are islands of plastics in the pacific. SOme of them are several metres deep. Just plasticJun 17 18:45
DaemonMDVare you sure that 80% of ocean refuse is not Pamela Anderson?Jun 17 18:45
MinceRanyway, i prefer that ship in Star Wreck: The PirkinningJun 17 18:45
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schestowitzThere's some of them circling Jun 17 18:45
schestowitzBut the press hardly pays attention to itJun 17 18:45
MinceRthe one that completely shut down after firing, spent some minutes in dark and then the lights came on and the computers started booting :>Jun 17 18:45
schestowitzLet's look at some leeeenucks newsJun 17 18:46
schestowitzEwww...Jun 17 18:47
schestowitzIBM..., disgusting.Jun 17 18:47
schestowitz "Together with Al Gillen from IDC, I’ll be hosting a webcast on Wednesday, June 17, at Noon ET called “Lower your TCO with Linux.” It will be an overview of Linux solutions to help optimize the total cost of ownership (TCO) and improve energy efficiency."Jun 17 18:47
schestowitzThey are paying shills and propagandaJun 17 18:47
schestowitzAnd appearing with themJun 17 18:47
schestowitzThe orgy of liars with shills like Gillen...Jun 17 18:47
schestowitzThey have a content over who bribes him moreJun 17 18:47
DaemonMDVapparently it doesn't support playlisting at all in MSC modeJun 17 18:48
schestowitzAnd the shill-nalysts must be floating in cash. Pay to say, pay to say...Jun 17 18:48
DaemonMDVyou HAVE to use MTPJun 17 18:48
DaemonMDVon the bright side, it doesn't crash Banshee :DJun 17 18:48
schestowitzXO Laptops are Banned in OLPC Ethiopia Classrooms 17 18:49
MinceRDaemonMDV: like i said, your player sucksJun 17 18:49
DaemonMDVI'll figure this outJun 17 18:50
DaemonMDVI know!Jun 17 18:50
schestowitzWhat's the obsession with codecs?Jun 17 18:50
schestowitzCould there be ANYTHING more boring to talk about?Jun 17 18:50
DaemonMDVput the numerical sequence in the tag!Jun 17 18:50
_Hicham_schestowitz : what do u think of openSUSE build service ?Jun 17 18:50
schestowitzBauds and compresion...Jun 17 18:50
schestowitz_Hicham_: it's good.Jun 17 18:50
schestowitzLF adopts it tooJun 17 18:50
_Hicham_LF?Jun 17 18:50
DaemonMDVI'm still partial to Ubuntu PPA'sJun 17 18:51
DaemonMDVthose are easyJun 17 18:51
DaemonMDVyou can't screw it upJun 17 18:51
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_Hicham_do u know what is openSUSE build service at least?Jun 17 18:51
schestowitz_Hicham_: LF=kernel foundationJun 17 18:52
DaemonMDVif the distro decides to be packaging Nazis, someone will build it anywayJun 17 18:52
DaemonMDVyes, I love itJun 17 18:52
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[trmanco] listening to "TreblesTrebles (House Music) - Benny benassi vs. MBrothers" ♫ 17 18:52
trmancoheheheJun 17 18:53
_Hicham_are u packageable DaemonMDV?Jun 17 18:53
schestowitzhey, _Hicham_ , the Python comes to dine. 17 18:53
DaemonMDVyes, but I have a lot of broken dependencies, architecture conflicts, and "package is referred to by others but is not in the repository" hangupsJun 17 18:54
DaemonMDVbut after spending 12 hours getting me ready, it feels like you've accomplished something til I segfault and eat yur babiesJun 17 18:54
DaemonMDV*yourJun 17 18:55
DaemonMDV:)Jun 17 18:55
_Hicham_how do u compare urpmi to yum?Jun 17 18:56
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] Why is Google even asking questions about codecs? Ogg, of course.Jun 17 18:57
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[trmanco] listening to "Show Me Love (House 2008) - Michael Mind" ♫ 17 18:57
DaemonMDVeasier to use, hits less snagsJun 17 18:57
DaemonMDVhas proper orphaned RPM removalJun 17 18:57
DaemonMDV:)Jun 17 18:57
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_Hicham_and did u test packagekit on MDV?Jun 17 18:59
DaemonMDVnoJun 17 18:59
DaemonMDVand frankly I don't want itJun 17 18:59
DaemonMDVI am unlikely to ever want itJun 17 19:00
DaemonMDVit does not work well on any distro with any backendJun 17 19:00
DaemonMDVnor is it uniformly implementedJun 17 19:00
_Hicham_it doesn't work even on fedora?Jun 17 19:00
DaemonMDVnot all that well, remember, it has yum as a backendJun 17 19:01
DaemonMDVso you'll have to pull out kill -9 and fix the database every time it takes a shitJun 17 19:01
DaemonMDVFedora has done a lot of things well but packaging has never really been all that great with themJun 17 19:01
_Hicham_but for me, packagekit was faster than the add/remove software shipped with MDVJun 17 19:02
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[trmanco] listening to "Show Me Love (Out NOW) - Steve Angello & Laidback Luke Ft Robin S" ♫ 17 19:02
_Hicham_from my own experienceJun 17 19:02
DaemonMDVwhen it comes back up after you kill -9 it it will complain that something has a lock on RPMJun 17 19:02
DaemonMDVand you have to wait for it to figure out it's hallucinatingJun 17 19:02
DaemonMDVand give you back controlJun 17 19:02
_Hicham_clear the rpm db lockJun 17 19:02
_Hicham_it is as simple as thatJun 17 19:03
DaemonMDVthat's the part that finally killed me on FedoraJun 17 19:03
_Hicham_apt also has this problemJun 17 19:03
DaemonMDVYum falls over dead far too oftenJun 17 19:03
_Hicham_from the commandline?Jun 17 19:03
_Hicham_yum works perfectly from the commandlineJun 17 19:03
_Hicham_never had a problem with itJun 17 19:03
DaemonMDVit tends to work better thereJun 17 19:03
_Hicham_except for test updatesJun 17 19:03
DaemonMDVbut I just generally don't like YumJun 17 19:03
schestowitzHm..... check out the comments here: 17 19:03
DaemonMDVthere's better ways to do thingsJun 17 19:04
schestowitzAlso one from oiaohmJun 17 19:04
_Hicham_what do u like the most ? Zypper?Jun 17 19:04
DaemonMDVthey should use SmartPMJun 17 19:04
_Hicham_I never used SmartPMJun 17 19:04
DaemonMDVit uses its own databaseJun 17 19:05
_Hicham_what are its advantages?Jun 17 19:05
DaemonMDVI'm not exactly for sure on how it keeps Yum up to date, but they both work side by sideJun 17 19:05
DaemonMDVand Smart doesn't lock up constantlyJun 17 19:05
DaemonMDVand is much fasterJun 17 19:05
DaemonMDVit also understands Debian packagesJun 17 19:06
DaemonMDVdoesn't mean it's a great idea to install themJun 17 19:06
DaemonMDVbut you canJun 17 19:06
_Hicham_so it runs a mixed db?Jun 17 19:06
DaemonMDVyesJun 17 19:06
DaemonMDVyou can also use it to install RPMs in UbuntuJun 17 19:06
DaemonMDVagain, not a great ideaJun 17 19:06
schestowitzMOG: "Why Novell Kisses Microsoft’s Ring Every So Often"Jun 17 19:07
DaemonMDVif you have an RPM that Alien can't convert that doesn't have a lot of dependencies, it may work if you install it in SMARTJun 17 19:07
DaemonMDVbut then again, it may notJun 17 19:07
_Hicham_rpm is available in UbuntuJun 17 19:07
DaemonMDVI'm a bigger fan of just bypassing the distributions package manager totallyJun 17 19:07
_Hicham_why?Jun 17 19:08
DaemonMDVAutoPackage tends to work no matter what distro you useJun 17 19:08
_Hicham_to have segfaults?Jun 17 19:08
DaemonMDVnoJun 17 19:08
DaemonMDVAutoPackage is pretty reliableJun 17 19:08
DaemonMDVas reliable as trying to make a package for every Linux distro gets I supposeJun 17 19:08
_Hicham_noJun 17 19:08
_Hicham_it is notJun 17 19:09
_Hicham_it will never succeedJun 17 19:09
DaemonMDVsince distros are not really even compatible with other Linux distros unless you statically link everythingJun 17 19:09
_Hicham_Linux doesn't have a stable ABIJun 17 19:09
_Hicham_so there won't be a magical solutionJun 17 19:09
_Hicham_unless there is one thingJun 17 19:09
DaemonMDVUbuntu is LSB compliantJun 17 19:09
_Hicham_ur LSB compliant if u have lsb packagesJun 17 19:10
DaemonMDVno you aren'tJun 17 19:10
DaemonMDVyou can't claim compliance unless you pass their test suiteJun 17 19:10
_Hicham_I knowJun 17 19:10
DaemonMDVthe packages don't mean anything by themselvesJun 17 19:10
_Hicham_what we need is a unified naming conventionJun 17 19:10
DaemonMDVUbuntu has their releases LSB certifiedJun 17 19:11
DaemonMDVwhich sounds nice anywayJun 17 19:11
DaemonMDV:DJun 17 19:11
_Hicham_if there is a unified naming convention shared between all distros, a lot of compatibility problems will disappearJun 17 19:11
DaemonMDVUbuntu has a hell of a time with my MP3 playerJun 17 19:11
_Hicham_and we can look into binary compatibility thenJun 17 19:11
DaemonMDVit keeps hammering on it trying to mount itJun 17 19:12
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DaemonMDVand that confuses the player to switch modes trying to be compatible with the OS probing itJun 17 19:12
_Hicham_ur Salsa Player?Jun 17 19:12
DaemonMDVso they chase each other around til they randomly both happen to try the same handshakeJun 17 19:12
DaemonMDVyesJun 17 19:12
DaemonMDVby this time Ubuntu has put three different device icons on my desktopJun 17 19:12
_Hicham_did u check that it doesn't support ogg completely?Jun 17 19:13
DaemonMDVI can't unmount the incorrect onesJun 17 19:13
_Hicham_Ubuntu Jaunty?Jun 17 19:13
DaemonMDVyesJun 17 19:13
DaemonMDVit tells me the device isn't thereJun 17 19:13
DaemonMDV(no shit!)Jun 17 19:13
DaemonMDVand the device may be in MTP, PTP, or MSC modeJun 17 19:13
_Hicham_it is an old problemJun 17 19:13
DaemonMDV:DJun 17 19:13
DaemonMDVwhich means that statistically 1 out of three of my files will be invisibleJun 17 19:13
_Hicham_hope that DeviceKit will fix that over timeJun 17 19:13
DaemonMDVdepending on how Ubuntu mounts itJun 17 19:13
DaemonMDVMandriva doesn't fuck it over that royallyJun 17 19:14
DaemonMDVdoes Ubuntu have mtpfs by default?Jun 17 19:14
_Hicham_Mandriva has a newer kernelJun 17 19:14
_Hicham_maybe that is whyJun 17 19:14
DaemonMDVgah, I was so disgusted I didn't even checkJun 17 19:14
DaemonMDVno, Mandriva can't see it, at least as a file systemJun 17 19:15
DaemonMDVif I install mtpfs, it starts wigging out like UbuntuJun 17 19:15
_Hicham_Ubuntu will use DeviceKit in KarmicJun 17 19:15
DaemonMDVRhythmbox can see it without MTPFS, so I'd jsut assume not go through the circus with Nautilus trying to mount it randomlyJun 17 19:15
DaemonMDVas for MP4 support, I just gave up and decided to keep using Foobar 2000 and Nero through WineJun 17 19:16
DaemonMDVit worksJun 17 19:16
_Hicham_I am downloading openSUSE 11.2 DevelopmentJun 17 19:17
DaemonMDVit actually transcodes faster in Wine than on VistaJun 17 19:17
_Hicham_i ve seen its featuresJun 17 19:17
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] Novell to buy back $121.6M of debt < >. Now it gets ugly.Jun 17 19:17
_Hicham_it is shipping a lot of new stuffJun 17 19:17
_Hicham_bleeding edge stuffJun 17 19:17
_Hicham_I don't know why Ubuntu is still using gdm 2.20Jun 17 19:17
_Hicham_and gnome-power-manager-2.24Jun 17 19:18
_Hicham_why this mixture in gnome?Jun 17 19:18
DaemonMDVI'll probably try out Karmic around Alpha 4-5Jun 17 19:18
DaemonMDVit's usually settles down by thenJun 17 19:18
DaemonMDVat least the major crap is usually goneJun 17 19:18
_Hicham_Karmic doesn't seen to be that importantJun 17 19:18
DaemonMDVby Alpha 3 they usually like to have feature freeze on major stuffJun 17 19:18
DaemonMDVit's usually safe by 4 or 5Jun 17 19:19
_Hicham_as always, they are doing copy->pasteJun 17 19:19
schestowitzDoes anyone here understand accounting well?Jun 17 19:19
DaemonMDVyes, their blueprints seem rather unambitiousJun 17 19:19
DaemonMDVeven for UbuntuJun 17 19:19
schestowitzWe need interpretation of this: 17 19:19
_Hicham_DaemonMDV has a Master in Accounting schestowitzJun 17 19:19
DaemonMDVit's mostly jsut routine plumbing upgradesJun 17 19:19
DaemonMDVnew GNOME, GRUB, kernel........Jun 17 19:20
schestowitz_Hicham_: like  a masters inn box-bootingJun 17 19:20
DaemonMDVsome random stupid novelty thrown in to make it have that new car smellJun 17 19:20
DaemonMDV(notifications)Jun 17 19:20
_Hicham_they take patches from other peopleJun 17 19:20
schestowitzSerious though, if anyone can take a look (maybe you _Hicham_ ) and offer a view, that would be grandJun 17 19:20
schestowitzI know what it means, but I want to be sureJun 17 19:20
DaemonMDVUbuntu just really isn't all that creative or cleverJun 17 19:20
schestowitzNovell follows MFT's footstepsJun 17 19:21
schestowitzSelling debtJun 17 19:21
schestowitz*MSFTJun 17 19:21
DaemonMDVtheir kernel git is mainly to use as a staging area for backported patches from the main kernelJun 17 19:21
DaemonMDVI actually saw like 5 or 6 patches go into 2.6.29 from Ubuntu and couldn't believe there were so manyJun 17 19:21
_Hicham_don't remind of their kernelsJun 17 19:21
DaemonMDVthat's out of several thousandJun 17 19:21
_Hicham_they are adding more overheads to kernel devsJun 17 19:22
DaemonMDV:)Jun 17 19:22
_Hicham_most of their patches cause problems more than fixesJun 17 19:22
DaemonMDVevery kernel they throw in literally 2-3 patches into mainlineJun 17 19:22
DaemonMDVthey're never to fix a major issue eitherJun 17 19:22
DaemonMDVusually something trivial that Novell or Red Hat would have fixed at some point no doubtJun 17 19:23
DaemonMDVyes, building your own kernel on Ubuntu will net you a huge reliability boostJun 17 19:23
DaemonMDVbut why are you building kernels?Jun 17 19:23
DaemonMDVyour distro should do thatJun 17 19:23
DaemonMDVthat's why it's a distro and you're a userJun 17 19:23
schestowitz "It’s a delicate dance, especially at times like this when growth capital is so scarce. Time will tell whether Vyatta tilts toward, say, Xen in helping craft customer solutions. Or whether it starts pushing Novell’s Suse Linux over, say, Red Hat. ‘"Jun 17 19:24
_Hicham_yes, ur distro should do thatJun 17 19:24
_Hicham_plus, I don't like building big programsJun 17 19:24
DaemonMDVI hate doing itJun 17 19:24
_Hicham_that is why i like OpenSUSE build serviceJun 17 19:24
DaemonMDVit takes me 2 hours on a 2.33 Ghz Core 2 DuoJun 17 19:24
DaemonMDVand then by the time I build it, they have another one ready to goJun 17 19:24
_Hicham_2 hours to build what?Jun 17 19:24
DaemonMDVthere's just no keeping up with mainlineJun 17 19:24
DaemonMDVa kernelJun 17 19:24
DaemonMDVtakes about 1.5-2 hoursJun 17 19:25
DaemonMDVdepending on what else I'm doingJun 17 19:25
_Hicham_a kernel build in 2 hours?Jun 17 19:25
_Hicham_that is greatJun 17 19:25
DaemonMDVI can do it in an hourJun 17 19:25
DaemonMDVif I use the scripts that check your hardwareJun 17 19:25
DaemonMDVand strip everything out of the .configJun 17 19:25
_Hicham_by stripping it down, yesJun 17 19:25
_Hicham_Firefox takes more than that to buildJun 17 19:26
DaemonMDVbut if I build one off basically the same Ubuntu config about 1.5-2 hoursJun 17 19:26
MinceRfinally you can reduce the size of your initrd by 2 megabytes!Jun 17 19:26
DaemonMDVyeah, but you don't want toJun 17 19:26
DaemonMDVit slows the boot down a littleJun 17 19:26
MinceRalso, you get to rebuild stuff if you install new hardware!Jun 17 19:26
_Hicham_OpenOffice is worse at buildingJun 17 19:26
DaemonMDVI'd rather use the 2 megsJun 17 19:26
DaemonMDVbut I don't really need an initrdJun 17 19:27
_Hicham_I hate building big softwareJun 17 19:27
DaemonMDVbuilding the file system drivers into the kernel helpsJun 17 19:27
_Hicham_thanks to god, gcc is having precompiled headers support since version 4Jun 17 19:27
DaemonMDVUbuntu builds XFS as a module so if you use XFS, you can pick up another 1-2 seconds by building it into your imageJun 17 19:27
MinceRsure, 1-2 secondsJun 17 19:28
MinceRwhat are you running, a 386?Jun 17 19:28
DaemonMDVI've riced up a kernel before and got Ubuntu to boot in 18 secondsJun 17 19:28
DaemonMDVheheJun 17 19:28
_Hicham_18 seconds?Jun 17 19:28
DaemonMDVit boots in about 24 seconds on its own kernelJun 17 19:28
DaemonMDVyeah, removing the AppArmor hook gains you another bit of a secondJun 17 19:29
DaemonMDV:DJun 17 19:29
_Hicham_what out Fedora 11 boot up speed for u DaemonMDV?Jun 17 19:29
DaemonMDVthere's a whole bunch of little things you can do that add upJun 17 19:29
DaemonMDVdidn't time itJun 17 19:29
DaemonMDVI know my system boots faster than Eric Sandeen'sJun 17 19:29
DaemonMDVlolJun 17 19:29
DaemonMDVI don't know what he's done but his was like 43 secondsJun 17 19:30
DaemonMDVand Fedora 10 booted in 22 seconds for meJun 17 19:30
_Hicham_u removed default services thenJun 17 19:31
DaemonMDVnopeJun 17 19:31
_Hicham_was it from default install?Jun 17 19:31
DaemonMDVyesJun 17 19:31
DaemonMDVI don't build kernels for FedoraJun 17 19:31
DaemonMDVRPM is a bitchJun 17 19:31
DaemonMDVand the old fashioned way is messyJun 17 19:31
DaemonMDVmake-kpkg is possibly the best thing everJun 17 19:32
DaemonMDV(Debian/Ubuntu)Jun 17 19:32
_Hicham_rpm is a bitch?Jun 17 19:32
DaemonMDVyesJun 17 19:32
_Hicham_why?Jun 17 19:32
_Hicham_it is simple to build rpmsJun 17 19:32
DaemonMDVmaking a Debian package is more straightforwardJun 17 19:32
DaemonMDVespecially with checkinstallJun 17 19:32
DaemonMDVdead simpleJun 17 19:32
DaemonMDVdon't need to worry about crap like making an rpmbuild for yourselfJun 17 19:33
_Hicham_a spec file?Jun 17 19:33
_Hicham_u r whining about writing a small spec file?Jun 17 19:33
DaemonMDVRPM is why I'm naughty and just use make installJun 17 19:33
DaemonMDVyeah, I'm actually a lazy bastardJun 17 19:34
_Hicham_u r really dumbJun 17 19:34
_Hicham_u don't even have to write the spec filesJun 17 19:34
MinceRcheckinstall failsJun 17 19:34
_Hicham_as they already exist in the repsJun 17 19:34
DaemonMDVcheckinstall is wickedJun 17 19:34
_Hicham_u take the spec fileJun 17 19:34
DaemonMDVit plays with youJun 17 19:34
_Hicham_and the original tarballJun 17 19:35
DaemonMDVmakes you think it is going to spit out an RPMJun 17 19:35
MinceRno, it simply fails to work most of the timeJun 17 19:35
_Hicham_and rpmbuild -ba xxx.specJun 17 19:35
_Hicham_and that is itJun 17 19:35
_Hicham_it is very simpleJun 17 19:35
_Hicham_checkinstall is not recommendedJun 17 19:36
_Hicham_it is not proper packagingJun 17 19:36
_Hicham_u have to build a deb package the right wayJun 17 19:36
_Hicham_by providing at least a control fileJun 17 19:36
_Hicham_if it is from source, u have to give a rules fileJun 17 19:37
_Hicham_same for rpmJun 17 19:37
_Hicham_but rpm have all of that in a spec fileJun 17 19:37
_Hicham_and it is damn easy to write spec filesJun 17 19:37
_Hicham_DaemonMDV.specJun 17 19:38
_Hicham_Name : DaemonMDVJun 17 19:38
_Hicham_version : no_version_at_allJun 17 19:38
_Hicham_release : never_releasedJun 17 19:39
_Hicham_DaemonMDV : do u have a bachelor is CS?Jun 17 19:39
_Hicham_*inJun 17 19:39
DaemonMDVno :PJun 17 19:40
DaemonMDVI did take some Microsoft classes and stayed in a Holiday Inn Express one time :PJun 17 19:40
DaemonMDVnyaaaahJun 17 19:40
_Hicham_Microsoft Classes?Jun 17 19:44
_Hicham_in VB?Jun 17 19:44
schestowitzIran elections: protesters killed as uprising turns bloody 17 19:47
*PetoKraus has quit (Connection timed out)Jun 17 19:50
schestowitzPeru says it may revoke laws after Amazon clashes < >Jun 17 19:51
schestowitz_Hicham_: did you have a chance to look at that URL?Jun 17 19:51
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[davidgerard] fucking hell. pollen count is only 6 today. just snorted steroids. not quite at the snorting tabasco stage. but getting there.Jun 17 19:52
_Hicham_about novell accounting?Jun 17 19:52
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] This is a very disturbing video about (mis)use of tasers by British police < >Jun 17 19:57
schestowitzThe GNOME/Mono trolls are at it todayJun 17 19:57
schestowitzALL efforts to try and discredit BNJun 17 19:57
schestowitzRemember the Debian developer who comes here?Jun 17 19:58
schestowitzHe pretends not to know it's publicly loggedJun 17 19:58
schestowitzHe knowsJun 17 19:58
schestowitzHe's baiting for angry responseJun 17 19:58
schestowitzHe's trying to provoke usJun 17 19:58
_Hicham_a debian developer supporting mono?Jun 17 19:58
schestowitzAnd then pull another "Fink"-like smaear against usJun 17 19:58
schestowitzJust ignore him next timeJun 17 19:58
schestowitz_Hicham_: yesJun 17 19:58
schestowitzAnd othersJun 17 19:58
schestowitzMono is a messJun 17 19:58
schestowitzMiguel knows itJun 17 19:58
schestowitzLots of fog over it right nowJun 17 19:58
DaemonMDVwell, my system has been faster since I killed off BeagleJun 17 19:59
schestowitzSo their best shot is to attack our credibilityJun 17 19:59
DaemonMDVit kept trying to index my working directoriesJun 17 19:59
schestowitzGroklaw has SCO and MS do the same to themJun 17 19:59
DaemonMDV:PJun 17 19:59
_Hicham_schestowitz : Mono is moving at a fast paceJun 17 19:59
_Hicham_but it doesn't implement .NET 3 yetJun 17 19:59
_Hicham_so, it is not that usefulJun 17 20:00
schestowitzWho should use alpha-status Chromium on Linux? 17 20:00
_Hicham_plus, I don't understand the portage of Mono to WindowsJun 17 20:00
_Hicham_what is it for?Jun 17 20:00
schestowitzTo connect it with .NETJun 17 20:00
_Hicham_worse, they are integrating it into visual studioJun 17 20:00
schestowitzTo give it more value with VS and WindowsJun 17 20:00
schestowitzMono is an abominationJun 17 20:00
_Hicham_connect Mono with .NetJun 17 20:00
schestowitzEven Miguel starts to realise this, I thinkJun 17 20:01
schestowitzI heard somewhere that he's getting exhaustedJun 17 20:01
schestowitzBut I don't know if it's trueJun 17 20:01
_Hicham_he is getting exhaused for sureJun 17 20:01
schestowitzHe knows the community is mostly against him because of MonoMicrosoft.NETOOXMLJun 17 20:01
schestowitzAnd he reads BN dailyJun 17 20:01
_Hicham_how do u know that he reads BN?Jun 17 20:01
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[davidgerard] Please place all webmonkies who think trusted clients work in protective straightjacket custody: 17 20:02
schestowitz_Hicham_: his IPJun 17 20:02
_Hicham_schestowitz : were u using SUSE before 2006?Jun 17 20:02
schestowitzYesJun 17 20:03
schestowitzIt was all part of the plot to give BN credibility ;-) (joke)Jun 17 20:03
_Hicham_and u weren't against Mono until the deal took place?Jun 17 20:03
schestowitzMS bloggers have become uselessJun 17 20:04
schestowitzThey used to sometimes criticise MSJun 17 20:04
schestowitzNot  that they see the company collapse they refrain from criticismJun 17 20:04
schestowitzThey are all bl00dy PR agentsJun 17 20:04
_Hicham_MS is widely criticisedJun 17 20:04
schestowitz_Hicham_: I first heard of Mono around 2004Jun 17 20:04
schestowitzSimon Ward told meJun 17 20:04
schestowitzLet me see if I can finf itJun 17 20:04
schestowitz*findJun 17 20:04
_Hicham_schestowitz : and what was ur reaction back then?Jun 17 20:04
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schestowitzHere:Jun 17 20:05
schestowitzFirefox 3.5, RC1, Slated for Friday--Many New FeaturesJun 17 20:05
_Hicham_wb Senor taconeJun 17 20:05
schestowitzRead the commentJun 17 20:05
schestowitz_Hicham_: Senor tacone was on Texas radio ;-)Jun 17 20:05
_Hicham_really?Jun 17 20:06
schestowitz_Hicham_: no reactionJun 17 20:06
_Hicham_schestowitz : u didn't object to it then?Jun 17 20:06
schestowitzI didn't know enough about itJun 17 20:06
schestowitzIt wasn't even in Ubuntu yetJun 17 20:06
schestowitzLet alone SUSEJun 17 20:06
schestowitzS.u.S.EJun 17 20:06
schestowitzSUSE was mostly a KDE 3.x distroJun 17 20:07
schestowitzI used 3.1Jun 17 20:07
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] Firefox 3.5, RC1, Slated for Friday--Many New Features 17 20:07
taconehelloJun 17 20:07
DaemonMDV 17 20:09
DaemonMDVWeird Al B-)Jun 17 20:09
DaemonMDVDon't want to be a Canadian idiot Dont want to be some beer swillin' hockey nut and do I look like some frost bitten hosehead I never learned my alphabet from "A" to "Zed"Jun 17 20:10
DaemonMDV:PJun 17 20:10
taconemy alphabet goes from A to L and from N to ZJun 17 20:13
schestowitzTake aids, give cancer 17 20:14
taconeuh...Jun 17 20:14
schestowitzDaemonMDV: too brightJun 17 20:15
taconesome people have email alias. I want it too !Jun 17 20:15
DaemonMDVschestowitz: Weird Al is awesome :)Jun 17 20:16
*DaemonMDV has every Weird Al CD Jun 17 20:16
schestowitzRoy's MDV: 17 20:17
schestowitz Weird Al challenges the MAFIAAJun 17 20:17
schestowitzGood to support himJun 17 20:17
DaemonMDVI've always liked Weird AlJun 17 20:18
schestowitzI heard of him like 12 years agoJun 17 20:19
schestowitzAlways at the bottom of playlists onlineJun 17 20:19
schestowitzWJun 17 20:19
DaemonMDVAmish Paradise is still my favoriteJun 17 20:19
DaemonMDVthe Amish still refer to us as "The English"Jun 17 20:20
DaemonMDVthey're bizarreJun 17 20:20
DaemonMDVwe have quite a few of them near hereJun 17 20:20
schestowitzLinuxToday annoyed at Monobian: 17 20:20
DaemonMDVthey can't buy deodorantJun 17 20:20
DaemonMDVso they go into Walmart and use someJun 17 20:20
DaemonMDVthen put it back on the shelfJun 17 20:20
DaemonMDV:)Jun 17 20:21
schestowitzThe blob|rower gets new featiures: 17 20:22
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[astralknight] Linux robot car targets autonomous navigation: 17 20:22
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] Carla provoked a lots of responses by leaving Ubuntu: 17 20:22
DaemonMDVDon't Download This Song is 2ndJun 17 20:22
DaemonMDVon my favoritesJun 17 20:22
MinceRit's a good songJun 17 20:24
schestowitzFunny comments here: 17 20:24
schestowitz 17 20:26
DaemonMDVhmmmJun 17 20:28
DaemonMDVAAC has no trouble handling 5.1 surround sound eitherJun 17 20:28
DaemonMDVimpressiveJun 17 20:28
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DaemonMDV(MP3 can't in MPEG-1 Layer 3 mode)Jun 17 20:29
*schestowitz sighs at discussions about compressionJun 17 20:36
*DaemonMDV is clearly fascinated by itJun 17 20:42
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] Coming home to Puppy Linux < > Going strong even without Barry...Jun 17 20:42
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] Belgium Makes Election Software Open to the Public < >. This should be trivial. What's next? Bonnets welded shut?Jun 17 20:42
DaemonMDVbtw _Hicham_, every time I copy a Vorbis over to the player it deletes it immediatelyJun 17 20:42
DaemonMDVwith no warningJun 17 20:42
DaemonMDVyou asked but I think I mentioned that beforeJun 17 20:42
DaemonMDVI tried it again in MSC mode and it stays on the device til I try to play the file then it disappearsJun 17 20:43
_Hicham_here is a hintJun 17 20:43
_Hicham_change the extension to wma and seeJun 17 20:43
_Hicham_if that works by extensionJun 17 20:43
_Hicham_or formatJun 17 20:43
_Hicham_I am gonna reboot into openSUSEJun 17 20:44
*_Hicham_ has quit ("Leaving.")Jun 17 20:44
DaemonMDVWMA? why would that make it workJun 17 20:44
DaemonMDVif it doesn't have a codec it won't workJun 17 20:44
DaemonMDVdoesn't matter what I name itJun 17 20:44
DaemonMDVthough interestingly enough I can use ffmpeg to make WMA filesJun 17 20:45
DaemonMDVthey sound better than Microsoft's encoder tooJun 17 20:45
DaemonMDVany guesses as to how many patents that violates?Jun 17 20:46
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_Hicham_openSUSE LiveCD uses a different technologyJun 17 21:02
_Hicham_different from Ubuntu an Fedora's onesJun 17 21:03
_Hicham_the boot process started normally from harddisk, then it complained about a missing config fileJun 17 21:03
_Hicham_DeamonMDV : can u explain?Jun 17 21:04
_Hicham_where is that DaemonMDV?Jun 17 21:05
_Hicham_where r u?Jun 17 21:05
_Hicham_show up!Jun 17 21:05
*_Hicham_ has quit (Client Quit)Jun 17 21:06
DaemonMDVSuse rolls out a series of image filesJun 17 21:08
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[davidgerard] RT @angusprune:RT @edent: - A police officer has just asked me to delete this photo of her van in a disabled bay.Jun 17 21:12
MinceRwhat the hellJun 17 21:12
DaemonMDVshoot back an email telling her you'll remove it if she's disabledJun 17 21:13
DaemonMDV:PJun 17 21:13
schestowitzOpenOSX releases WinTel 3.0 virtual machine Linux..Jun 17 21:17
schestowitzTroll alert (again) 17 21:26
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[davidgerard] @schestowitz I just got "Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Windows NT 5.1; en-US; rv:1.9.1) Gecko/20090615 Firefox/3.5" (yes, this is an XP box)Jun 17 21:27
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] GNU/Linux fights suppressive censorship: 17 21:27
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mib_1dgi5zwaz upJun 17 21:28
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-BNc/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] @davidgerard : shoot it !! ;-)Jun 17 21:32
schestowitz"Windows fan boys and paid astroturfers  They are willing to break the law to gain against their competition, and being annoying on websites isn't even against the law." Some think the trolling in Ubuntu comes from MSFTersJun 17 21:35
schestowitz 17 21:35
schestowitzSetting up an Ubuntu webcam server 17 21:40
*fewa ( has joined #boycottnovellJun 17 21:42
schestowitzfewa: I watched Wikipedia today (ODF)Jun 17 21:42
schestowitzThe Microsofters are gentler but still corrupting itJun 17 21:42
schestowitzTheir defacing was never undone, eitherJun 17 21:43
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] The author never uses Linux, yet he runs a "Linux" blog in ZeeDee. It shows.Jun 17 21:47
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] Mozilla, unlike Google, seems quote bullish on ogg. 17 21:47
schestowitzFacebook Finally Catches Up To MySpace In The U.S. 17 21:48
fewadid facebook gain or myspace loose?Jun 17 21:49
schestowitzThe graph showsJun 17 21:50
schestowitzMySpace is a disaster nowJun 17 21:51
schestowitzBut it's more harmless (or just harmless)Jun 17 21:51
schestowitzNo 'friends' bother you with stuff (peer pressure)Jun 17 21:51
schestowitzAmazing mobile app lets you see the world ‘through online eyes’ 17 21:52
trmancoFF 3.5 knows how to manage it's memory nowJun 17 21:52
trmancoI had 16 tabs open using 270 MB of ram, I closed all except 3 and it's memory usage when down to 110 MBJun 17 21:54
trmancowent*Jun 17 21:54
schestowitzFor me it hardly worksJun 17 21:55
schestowitzI also need to shut it down to flush memory useJun 17 21:55
schestowitzFatfoxJun 17 21:55
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] Update on KVM. KVM is important since Microsoftrix snatched Xen and VMware is run by Microsofters.Jun 17 21:57
trmanco 17 21:57
trmancothey are desperateJun 17 21:57
trmanco 17 22:00
trmancosee thisJun 17 22:00
*benJIman is now known as benjaminJun 17 22:01
trmanco"If you are already using IE8, please switch off the Compatibility Mode!"Jun 17 22:01
trmancof*ck standards they sayJun 17 22:01
*benjamin is now known as benJImanJun 17 22:01
MinceRthat's what m$ and their fans say tooJun 17 22:01
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] Asa Dotzler (Mozilla): "I think that Theora+Vorbis absolutely trounces H.263+MP3" 17 22:02
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] @trmanco: Microsoft is busy trying to ensure some of its competition dies along /with/ itJun 17 22:02
schestowitzUbuntuGlobalJam < >Jun 17 22:02
schestowitzYo, check out Saddam's CRIB: 17 22:02
schestowitz 17 22:03
schestowitzHere is where criminals go: Giant Burning Holes of the World < >Jun 17 22:04
schestowitzHell no!Jun 17 22:04
*DaemonMDV has quit (Remote closed the connection)Jun 17 22:05
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] Behold Opera Unite: the Anti-Fog Computing < > #FogComputingJun 17 22:07
schestowitzMSFTer (Anderson):  Opera Unite: another way to share, another nightmare for digital rights  < >Jun 17 22:07
trmancopffJun 17 22:08
trmancosomething cool comes out, they call it crap?Jun 17 22:09
trmancogeeshJun 17 22:09
*DaemonMDV ( has joined #boycottnovellJun 17 22:11
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[davidgerard] Second World tells First World to just bugger off kthx there's a good chap 17 22:12
fewatrmanco, lolJun 17 22:13
fewafuck standardsJun 17 22:13
MinceRthey're pissed at opera because they dared speak against m$'s anticompetitive practices in the EUJun 17 22:13
MinceRso they'll lie anything about opera to make it look badJun 17 22:13
fewathe removed the reference to firefoxJun 17 22:14
fewanow its just "that browser"Jun 17 22:14
fewao it didnt read my user agentJun 17 22:14
trmancofewa, thats because you are using 3.5, right?Jun 17 22:18
fewaahhJun 17 22:18
trmancoif you use 3.0 it will say FFJun 17 22:18
trmancoold FirefoxJun 17 22:18
fewai switched my useragent to ie and its too stupidJun 17 22:18
trmancotarnished ChromeJun 17 22:18
trmancoyeahJun 17 22:18
fewadoesnt even user propritary IE8 <!--[if statementsJun 17 22:18
trmancobut you won't get farJun 17 22:18
fewatalk about anti-competitiveJun 17 22:19
trmancoyou can turn off "compitability mode"Jun 17 22:19
trmancothat is the first clueJun 17 22:19
fewaisnt there alot of regulations on contests where a purchace is required?Jun 17 22:19
schestowitz"@TheyKnowIt: photosynth ain't cross platform, by design (it used to run Linux when MS bought it)"Jun 17 22:19
fewawhy they always say "no purchace required"Jun 17 22:19
schestowitzIs that a MSFTer?Jun 17 22:19
schestowitz " If MS project Natal was by Nitendo would we still hearing the buzz? why?"Jun 17 22:19
schestowitzWhoaJun 17 22:20
schestowitzLook at this accountJun 17 22:20
schestowitzit's a TurferJun 17 22:20
fewasame thing over and over againJun 17 22:20
fewareport to @spamJun 17 22:21
schestowitzOKJun 17 22:23
fewathe account purposefully uses bad grammerJun 17 22:24
fewa"are google"Jun 17 22:24
schestowitzWhy purposefully?Jun 17 22:24
fewaidk perhaps notJun 17 22:25
trmanco"I like the windows progress bar when copying a file.Jun 17 22:25
trmancoIt takes more time to calculate how much time it takes to move the file than to move the file."Jun 17 22:25
fewamakeby just lazyJun 17 22:25
schestowitzTrufers are cheapJun 17 22:25
schestowitzCould be prison inmatesJun 17 22:25
trmanconow that's pretty darn funnyJun 17 22:25
schestowitzThey just need to do guerrilla, not make argumentsJun 17 22:25
schestowitzLike with LawMediaJun 17 22:25
schestowitzMcirosoft used them to hire poor people (and minorities) to attack GoogleJun 17 22:26
schestowitzThis was exposedJun 17 22:26
fewageezeJun 17 22:26
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] is the account TheyKnowIt < > a Microsoft AstroTurfer? Watch the shouting there.Jun 17 22:27
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] MySpace cuts 30% of staff < >. Passing fad?Jun 17 22:27
schestowitzYay!Jun 17 22:29
schestowitzMS YouTube contender is dyingJun 17 22:29
schestowitz"Microsoft plans to "significantly scale back" its Soapbox service, the would-be YouTube challenger it launched in 2006. Whatever that means."Jun 17 22:29
schestowitz 17 22:29
MinceRit means that they're throwing in the towel :>Jun 17 22:29
fewamicrosoft is trying to be the conputer businessJun 17 22:30
fewait simply isnt possibleJun 17 22:30
MinceRindeedJun 17 22:30
fewatheir pirate days are numberedJun 17 22:32
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[davidgerard] @schestowitz as I pointed out to @glynmoody , the question is what comes after facebookJun 17 22:32
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] Will Microsoft's YouTube wannabe be documented in YouTube (because it's dying)? It's like book search.Jun 17 22:32
MinceRit's a disgrace to pirates to call m$ one of themJun 17 22:32
fewabut M$ was a real pirateJun 17 22:32
fewaboarding computing ships and taking lootJun 17 22:33
MinceRi'd rather call them a parasiteJun 17 22:33
MinceRthey were sucking the life out of the IT industryJun 17 22:33
fewathats what they are nowJun 17 22:33
MinceRand through it from our societyJun 17 22:33
fewapirates are a form of parasiteJun 17 22:33
MinceRi can't follow thatJun 17 22:34
fewapirates live of the loot from others, that is the definition of parasiteJun 17 22:34
fewai know there are other definitions of parisiteJun 17 22:34
fewabut this is the classic senseJun 17 22:34
fewabig companies call others pirates cause they are hiding their own actionsJun 17 22:34
fewaits like MPs meaning of life introJun 17 22:35
fewa 17 22:36
fewanot quite :PJun 17 22:37
schestowitzLOL MS is mad. Throwing Windows cheap now, for stupid people to pay LATERJun 17 22:38
schestowitzThey do ANYTHING to block people from embracing Apple and GNUJun 17 22:38
fewaalso trying to implament the MS rentJun 17 22:38
fewadont want people to own their computersJun 17 22:38
schestowitzWhy would they? Like in India where they try itJun 17 22:39
schestowitzYou buy cardsJun 17 22:39
schestowitzAnd then pay per hourJun 17 22:39
MinceRIn Soviet Russia, Apple embraces YOU!! oh, waitJun 17 22:39
schestowitzIt's offensiveJun 17 22:39
schestowitzMinceR: in Russia there's no AppleJun 17 22:39
schestowitzApple only /really/ exists in rich countriesJun 17 22:40
MinceRlucky peopleJun 17 22:40
schestowitzPeople buy the ticket to the cultureJun 17 22:40
schestowitzSome do it by being cheapstakes and buying a ShuffleJun 17 22:40
MinceRa bacterium culture all rightJun 17 22:40
fewaApple's NY store made $450 million in sales last yearJun 17 22:40
fewai mean holy shitJun 17 22:40
schestowitzThey still have the Apple carved onto itJun 17 22:40
MinceRyes, there are lots of rich and stupid peopleJun 17 22:40
fewathats alot of revenue for one storeJun 17 22:41
schestowitzfewa: how much in Beunos Aires?Jun 17 22:41
fewano apple is a niche productJun 17 22:41
schestowitzThat's where they start pulling a PsystarJun 17 22:41
schestowitzApple=caviarJun 17 22:41
schestowitzLinux=mealJun 17 22:41
schestowitzWindows=poisonJun 17 22:41
fewa 17 22:42
schestowitzBSD=eat fire, biatchJun 17 22:42
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] @davidgerard: FB still goes upwards, it's Twitter which started going downJun 17 22:42
MinceRi doubt caviar is that badJun 17 22:42
fewait isJun 17 22:42
schestowitzIt's expensiveJun 17 22:42
fewaI had a friend who fighedJun 17 22:42
schestowitzSo you have to like itJun 17 22:42
fewaand just tossed the rowJun 17 22:42
MinceRoh.Jun 17 22:42
schestowitzLike diamondsJun 17 22:42
schestowitzOr soft metals like goldJun 17 22:42
fewadidnt even feed it to his dog (he should have done that)Jun 17 22:42
schestowitzDiamond is at least hardJun 17 22:42
schestowitzGood for digging the groundJun 17 22:43
fewaand one fish has alot of rowJun 17 22:43
MinceRi've eaten roe (not as expensive as caviar though) -- it wasn't badJun 17 22:43
fewacaviar is a special row, but its really all the sameJun 17 22:43
fewanot as good as the fish itsselfJun 17 22:43
MinceRthere are harder materials than diamond thoughJun 17 22:43
fewaits like eating your own blood, not very nutritiousJun 17 22:43
fewaits a culturral, class, thing. not about nutritiousness or tastienessJun 17 22:44
schestowitzMary Jo PR is still PRingJun 17 22:44
schestowitzMS MS MS.....Jun 17 22:45
schestowitzWow, wow, wowJun 17 22:45
schestowitz"Ain't em teh wonderful?"Jun 17 22:45
schestowitzAt least she lets go some material that's ugly every now and thenJun 17 22:45
MinceRhm, maybe i was wrong about thatJun 17 22:48
schestowitzCaviar?Jun 17 22:49
schestowitzCaviuckJun 17 22:50
schestowitzIt's all culture and norms of cuisineJun 17 22:50
schestowitzSame with shrimps and seafoodJun 17 22:50
schestowitzMinceR: could over to the toilet bowl to eat dead seaweed and Caviuck...Jun 17 22:51
schestowitzHmmmmmm...... sounds yummy, eh? Jun 17 22:51
*schestowitz droolsJun 17 22:51
schestowitzIt's all about how scarce food is and how it's being presentedJun 17 22:51
MinceRnope, about materials harder than diamondJun 17 22:51
schestowitzPut Vista7 in the brown paper bag of Ubuntu 4.10 and see how it sellsJun 17 22:51
MinceRwhat i could gather is that there were some compounds that were predicted to be harder but turned out not to be once synthesizedJun 17 22:51
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[zoobab] Imminent threat of software patents in New Zealand: Deadline to submit proposals 2nd of JulyJun 17 22:52
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[davidgerard] @schestowitz you know, I had never even *heard* of soapboxJun 17 22:52
MinceRnah, the paper bag is for something else :>Jun 17 22:52
schestowitzDiamond is the hardest in Mortel KombatJun 17 22:52
fewabahhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhggggggggggggggJun 17 22:52
schestowitz*talJun 17 22:52
MinceRlucky we had a paper bag.Jun 17 22:52
schestowitzIt's for the caviarJun 17 22:55
schestowitz[when you puke]Jun 17 22:55
fewa <--Britian's decline into police stateJun 17 22:56
MinceRi thought it was for vista7Jun 17 22:56
MinceRor something relatedJun 17 22:56
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] @davidgerard: So @Waggener and Munchs ain't doin' their job.Jun 17 22:57
fewa 17 22:57
schestowitzfewa: yes, seen that newsJun 17 22:58
schestowitzzoobab01: that site is downJun 17 22:58
schestowitzNZJun 17 22:58
*tacone (n=Adium@ has joined #boycottnovellJun 17 22:58
MinceRvery 1984-ishJun 17 22:59
*schestowitz starts preparing daily links (BN)Jun 17 23:01
*Python1320 has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer))Jun 17 23:02
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[davidgerard] Songsmith is the greatest MS product in history. Billy Idol "White Wedding": 17 23:17
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] Dell Targets Schools, GNU/Linux a Possibility 17 23:17
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] Ubuntu Linux and Others Target Microsoft's Escapees 17 23:17
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] Ubuntu GNU/Linux Servers Get the "ACK" from Microsoft Partner H-P 17 23:17
*_Goblin ( has joined #boycottnovellJun 17 23:17
fewaYoutube removes videos and claims they violate the ToSJun 17 23:19
fewabut they dontJun 17 23:19
schestowitzTrueJun 17 23:19
fewathey do it to cover removing videos for bad taste or preempting DMCA requestsJun 17 23:19
schestowitzAlso removes audio sometimesJun 17 23:19
schestowitzIt's a hard taskJun 17 23:20
fewalike they have removed police brutality videosJun 17 23:20
schestowitzPeople re-uploadJun 17 23:20
fewaunder "ToS"Jun 17 23:20
schestowitzAnd compainJun 17 23:20
schestowitzMaybe sueJun 17 23:20
schestowitzBut they have done OK for 3 yearsJun 17 23:20
fewawhen they were in court documents and are therefore free to redistrobuteJun 17 23:20
schestowitzSome lawsuits they survived..Jun 17 23:20
fewaor even the product of a government agentJun 17 23:20
fewathey have been fighting viacom hardJun 17 23:21
fewaand goodJun 17 23:21
fewapreventing the messenger from being blamed for the messageJun 17 23:21
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[davidgerard] NotN: Microsoft Bob Hope and IE8 tighten their, er, grip 17 23:22
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] Minix is Alive and Well 17 23:22
fewageeze those dels are expensiveJun 17 23:22
fewaand not very good specsJun 17 23:23
fewadell has better laptops for 1/2 the cost and at least 2x the specsJun 17 23:23
fewaunless they are targeting private schools they shouldnt be asking more than $300 eachJun 17 23:25
schestowitzTrue.Jun 17 23:26
schestowitzSchools have better optionsJun 17 23:26
schestowitzAnd lobbyistsJun 17 23:26
fewaand even $300 ones have more than enought specsJun 17 23:26
fewai think they are targeting money-stupid private schoolsJun 17 23:27
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] CentOS (Red Hat Rebranded) Releases Its Second Newsletter CentOS runs BNJun 17 23:27
schestowitzfewa: I guess they do. Why don't the parents buy the PCs?Jun 17 23:28
schestowitzMust it be uniform?Jun 17 23:28
schestowitzAnimal farm of child eduction?Jun 17 23:28
fewapatents should buy themJun 17 23:28
fewaas then the schools cant attack free specch and censor their stupidsJun 17 23:29
fewa*students lolJun 17 23:29
fewaand instal spywareJun 17 23:29
fewaeven if the school buys them they should be the kid's laptopsJun 17 23:29
schestowitzIE-only sitesJun 17 23:31
schestowitzActiveX controlsJun 17 23:31
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] Phoronix Demonstrates Changes in the Speed of Linux (Fedora) Over Time 17 23:32
*neighborlee ( has joined #boycottnovellJun 17 23:36
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] Interview with Ubuntu Brancher 17 23:37
tacone"So Mono has to run in Wine to support some applications. Nice way to create something you can demo as failing on Linux really.”Jun 17 23:41
taconeWine is excluded by the Novell-Microsoft covenant.Jun 17 23:42
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] "...corrupt young and innocent minds – well, senior managers..." 17 23:42
fewatacone, that is only a FUD spread to think that microsoft has any right to exclude wineJun 17 23:43
taconefewa: it's included in the official deal.Jun 17 23:44
taconeit's a specific exception.Jun 17 23:44
fewabut the whole thing its so vague that it could mean anythingJun 17 23:44
taconefewa: 17 23:45
schestowitztacone: it isJun 17 23:45
schestowitzWine jeopardised by the Novell deaJun 17 23:45
schestowitz*dealJun 17 23:45
taconein reality that doesn't matter muchJun 17 23:46
fewaWhen microsoft starts going on the offensive GPL-3 holders will start suing the pants off of novellJun 17 23:46
taconeit just means that EVEN novell can't be safe from trials about wine.Jun 17 23:46
taconenor openoffice, btw.Jun 17 23:47
neighborleeyay its no longer a DEPEND ;))Jun 17 23:49
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] Ubuntu/Mono: Patent Convenant considered discriminatory 17 23:52
DaemonMDVI don't get itJun 17 23:53
DaemonMDVspamming Ubuntu Launchpad?Jun 17 23:53
DaemonMDVThat seems pretty lowJun 17 23:53
schestowitzIt's not spammingJun 17 23:55
schestowitzRead 17 23:55
DaemonMDVI should form a project and file a bug on "Chuck Norris says Mono is bad"Jun 17 23:56
DaemonMDVand confirm itJun 17 23:56
DaemonMDVso what exactly does doing that give you?Jun 17 23:56
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] "Astroturfing Experts" Teach a Lessons in the Criminal Side/s of PR Industry Worse than PR are lobbysists.Jun 17 23:57
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[davidgerard] DW/LJ: White wedding. 17 23:57

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