IRC: #boycottnovell @ FreeNode: July 3rd, 2009

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_Hicham_I am trying to submit some packages to fedoraJul 03 01:29
_Hicham_where r u schestowitz?Jul 03 01:29
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twitter1hi hoJul 03 01:34
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[ml2mst] Installed Fedora 10 today on my 7 years old Dell Optiplex GX240. I Love it! Yum is a very easy to use RPM frontend.Jul 03 01:38
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[ml2mst] Will install Fedora 12 of my Acer Aspire 7220 laptop. Still using Ubuntu 9.04 on it. After the official MONO statement of Ubuntu....Jul 03 01:38
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[ml2mst] I will jump the Ubuntu ship :-pJul 03 01:38
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[davidgerard] NotN: Minister praises high standard of science journalism 03 01:43
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LnsSo, I'll ask the obviousJul 03 05:28
LnsWhy boycott Novell?Jul 03 05:28
fewaHow can people stand their computers being a warground: 03 05:34
Lnsthey don't know any better? They think it's their fault?Jul 03 05:35
fewayeah thats itJul 03 05:35
fewabut they do noticeJul 03 05:35
LnssureJul 03 05:35
Lnsbut until something totally breaks they don't mindJul 03 05:35
fewathey notice when their computer gets slow, when MSFT forces them to do thingsJul 03 05:35
fewaand they dont like itJul 03 05:35
Lnsthey bought their computer and it works for them..kind ofJul 03 05:35
Lnsit's like your car, limping along, you know it needs lots of work but you might not have the money for itJul 03 05:36
fewaAnd then those that make money fixing the mess would rather the computers stay a wargroundJul 03 05:37
Lnsright, the ones that just care about money wouldJul 03 05:38
fewaIn this case im rooting for a GM-like ending, where the company that neglects to make its product better goes out of businessJul 03 05:38
fewabut we should skip the bailout partJul 03 05:38
Lnshahaha..yeah, i can imagine a m$ bailoutJul 03 05:39
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fewaand we still dont know if the GM profits in china will be counted in the bankruptcyJul 03 05:49
Lnsscrew moneyJul 03 05:52
Lnswe don't need itJul 03 05:52
tinhatnoidMS would get on the "businesses that cannot be allowed to fail list" im sure. if it got down to itJul 03 06:01
fewaIts called WGAJul 03 06:03
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twitter1an interesting use of OpenStreetMap 03 06:45
tessierI can easily imagine someone making the case that "MS is too big to be allowed to fail" since 99% of the world's computers depend on them.Jul 03 06:49
fewaPropritary software...Jul 03 07:02
fewaalso nowhere near 99%Jul 03 07:03
fewamaybe like 30%Jul 03 07:03
fewa5% or less if you count the endless amounts of consumer electronics and small devicesJul 03 07:04
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twitter1Answer them with the truism, "A company that is 'too big to fail' is too big to exist and must be broken up."Jul 03 07:07
twitter1M$ is failing on it's own.  No amount of money will save their broken and unethical business model.Jul 03 07:08
twitter1Software is too important to nationalize.  Do you really want the government owning your access to news, entertainment, medical records, baby pictures, and so on and so forth?Jul 03 07:09
twitter1More OpenStreetMaps software, 03 07:17
twitter1see there?  there are FF plugin collections maintained in Debian.Jul 03 07:18
tinhatnoidthe government allready does all those things and has that access to you, and more !Jul 03 07:21
tessiertwitter1: I agree about such a big company needing to be broken up.Jul 03 07:22
tinhatnoidthere are lots of good reasons to split up a company, but size alone is not really one of them.Jul 03 07:25
twitter1***twitter ignores tinhatnoid, a troll with an offensive name.Jul 03 07:34
twitter1the reasons to split up an abusive monopoly like M$ were laid out well in the US anti-trust verdict, and there are many precedents in US law.Jul 03 07:35
tinhatnoidDo you mean Judge Jackson's overturned verdict ? of the settled US antitrust case. ? (if you could see this that is) :DJul 03 07:49
fewano reason smart people cant maintain useful institutionsJul 03 07:51
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[ml2mst] Last night I ditched Ubuntu/Gnome in favor of Fedora/KDE4 - NOMONO, I only play Stereo! 03 07:53
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[nickballard] RT: @CaliLewis: Day 1 of the 12 Days of Twitter - The Secret Code: What are all those initials and symbols? - 03 08:08
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[nickballard] Turn Your Old Laptop into a Powerful Linux Workhorse 03 08:13
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[nickballard] Prevent Software Containing Mono Getting Installed in Ubuntu 03 08:13
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twitter1Washington Post influence party goes bust,,0,6537672.storyJul 03 08:25
twitter1The best government a newspaper can buy.Jul 03 08:25
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[zoobab] Software Patents tranforming Wed Standards discussions about video into a mess: 03 08:28
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[zoobab] Software = productivity; Software patents = loss of productivity; We should invoince the USPTO and EPO for patents around video codecsJul 03 08:28
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harrytuttlehelloJul 03 08:49
MinceRtinhatnoid: does that somehow invalidate all the arguments in it?Jul 03 08:53
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tinhatnoidno it does not, nor does it validate them.Jul 03 09:02
MinceR_it is, however, a set of arguments that were referenced above. :>Jul 03 09:06
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twitter1There are now 12.5 million more people seeking work than there were nine years ago, but fewer jobs for them in the US. 03 09:12
twitter1The first recession since the great depression to have wiped out all of the jobs in a previous business cycle.Jul 03 09:13
twitter1Seven more US banks fail 03 09:13
twitter1six of those banks were owned by one family, so it was really only two more banks failingJul 03 09:14
tinhatnoidI think the difference will be lost on those working for those banks, or investing in them. Economic downturn is bad for everyone, (mostly)Jul 03 09:35
harrytuttleanyone here who knows how to compile and maintain a dist like ubuntu?Jul 03 09:49
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[zoobab] The Bilski test was invented by IBM: 03 10:03
fewazoobab01, Bilski was goodJul 03 10:11
fewabut still open to abusive BSJul 03 10:12
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tinhatnoid"Judge Dyk, joined by Judge Linn, concurred in the majority opinion upholding the PTO’s rejection of Bilski’s patent, but concurred also in Judge Mayer’s historical analysis that the framers of the Constitution intended to exclude from the operation of the US patent system “methods for organizing human activity that do not involve manufactures, machines, or compositions of matter.” Since Bilski’s method faiJul 03 10:26
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[davidgerard] RT @glynmoody Police told to use Wikipedia for court preparation WHAT COULD POSSIBLY GO WRONGJul 03 10:43
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fewa Microsoft extends XP downgrade option to 2101Jul 03 10:49
tinhatnoidwow, about 90 years !!!Jul 03 10:50
fewa"Reviving Windows administrators from cryogenic freezing has proven insufficient to fill the market gap, as almost all begged to work on COBOL instead."Jul 03 10:50
tinhatnoidthey could probably have the downgrade forever, does not mean anyone will actually take it up.Jul 03 10:51
fewaBut why would people want to use it over XP?Jul 03 10:53
fewaVista 7Jul 03 10:54
tinhatnoidXP over Vista  or Win 7, thats simple they would use it over XP because they are better.Jul 03 11:06
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[trmanco] Firefox 3.5 at the top: !firefox #firefox #fx35Jul 03 11:13
MinceRfewa: because vista7 sucks about as much as vistaJul 03 11:30
fewathats what i was trying to sayJul 03 11:30
fewanobody will actively choose to use anything but XPJul 03 11:31
fewaMicrosoft forcing $NEXT_VERSION on users is tying and anti-competitiveJul 03 11:32
tinhatnoidthey cant be allowing downgrade to XP and forcing users onto the next version at the same time !! :)Jul 03 11:33
tinhatnoidIt's either one or the otherJul 03 11:33
fewatinhatnoid, they force OEMS to install VistaJul 03 11:33
MinceRthey still force them to buy vistaJul 03 11:33
MinceRand pay for it, and they count it a successfully sold copy of vistaJul 03 11:33
tinhatnoidOr not should they choose not too, thats what the XP extension is all aboutJul 03 11:34
fewawhich is illegalJul 03 11:34
fewaits called tying 03 11:34
tinhatnoidwhat is MS tying ??Jul 03 11:35
MinceRoffering no options beside windows is tying by itself, isn't it?Jul 03 11:35
fewaMinceR, that tooJul 03 11:35
fewathis was touched on by US v MicrosoftJul 03 11:36
tinhatnoidDid you read that tying definition ?Jul 03 11:36
MinceRdid you, tinhatnoid?Jul 03 11:36
fewa"being forced to buy an undesired good (the tied good) in order to purchase a good they actually want (the tying good)"Jul 03 11:36
trmanco 03 11:36
fewaPeople dont want Vista, this fits perfectly into the definitionJul 03 11:36
tinhatnoidyes, ofcourse, especially the first line. thats why I asked.Jul 03 11:37
fewatinhatnoid, no you didntJul 03 11:37
tinhatnoid"Tying is the practice of making the sale of one good (the tying good) to the de facto or de jure customer conditional on the purchase of a second distinctive good (the tied good). "Jul 03 11:37
tinhatnoidSo what is the second good that is tyed ?Jul 03 11:37
fewatinhatnoid, you asked that question as rhetoric, as a means to try to undermine my credibilityJul 03 11:37
tinhatnoidWell i asked it, because it seems you dont understand the law, thats why I asked.Jul 03 11:38
fewatinhatnoid, are you a lawyer?Jul 03 11:38
tinhatnoidAnd ill ask again, what is the second product MS is making your purchase ?Jul 03 11:38
fewatinhatnoid, are you a lawyer?Jul 03 11:38
tinhatnoidNo but I can readJul 03 11:38
MinceRtinhatnoid: the undesired good is vista, which is tied to the good they actually want, which is a computerJul 03 11:39
tinhatnoidMS dont selll computersJul 03 11:39
MinceRthey merely force oems into this situationJul 03 11:39
MinceRsuccessfullyJul 03 11:39
fewaMS is breaking the United States vs Microsoft caseJul 03 11:39
tinhatnoidread the definition, and then tell me what the second good MS is tieing to their first good ?Jul 03 11:39
MinceRbreak out of that infinite loop, tinhatnoidJul 03 11:40
fewaby running fees not dissimilar to the per-processor fees, and by punishing anyone that refuses to accept such anti-competitive deals.Jul 03 11:40
tinhatnoidIT's just when i hear people say things, I like to confirm what they are saying is true, if im not sure I hope the person making the statement will clear it up.Jul 03 11:41
tinhatnoidWhat product again ?? sorry I missed thatJul 03 11:41
tinhatnoidI gather Fewa that you are one of those that refuses to accept anti-competitive deals, so what punishment have you received from MS ?Jul 03 11:42
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MinceRtinhatnoid: do you think he's an OEM?Jul 03 11:45
tinhatnoidim pretty sure fewa said "anyone",Jul 03 11:45
tinhatnoidyep he didJul 03 11:46
MinceRperhaps you should study the language more.Jul 03 11:46
tinhatnoidI can read, im sure you can see he said "anyone" as well ?Jul 03 11:46
MinceRi'm not sure if you understood the sentence.Jul 03 11:46
fewatinhatnoid, if you cant understand such plain english you certainly cant understand anti-competition lawJul 03 11:47
fewa*anti-trust lawJul 03 11:47
tinhatnoid"by running fees not dissimilar to the per-processor fees, and by punishing anyone that refuses to accept such anti-competitive deals."Jul 03 11:47
MinceRcopy/paste worksJul 03 11:48
tinhatnoidthats what you said, what is there not to understand ?Jul 03 11:48
MinceRlet's see the "understand" part nowJul 03 11:48
tinhatnoidyou do know red hat charge for their sevice on a "per-processor" basis as well.Jul 03 11:50
fewatinhatnoid, that is processors that run Red Hat Enterprise LinuxJul 03 11:50
tinhatnoidand where is charging on a per-processor basis anit-trust ?Jul 03 11:51
MinceRwhich has absolutely nothing to do with the issue at hand.Jul 03 11:51
fewaWhat Microsoft demands is a price for every processor that the OEM shipsJul 03 11:51
tinhatnoidThats right RHEL exactlyJul 03 11:51
fewairregardless of weather it runs Microsoft softwareJul 03 11:51
fewathat is a taxJul 03 11:51
tinhatnoidI know it hasent, thats why I did not bring up the per-processor issue.Jul 03 11:51
oiaohmRHEL charages on a active copy base.Jul 03 11:52
oiaohmSo you can transfer licences from one machine to another without needing to buy new copies.Jul 03 11:53
oiaohmRHEL even allows a offline backup machines.Jul 03 11:53
tinhatnoidthats right its a per processor contract.Jul 03 11:54
oiaohmInstalled with the same licences as the active.Jul 03 11:54
oiaohmThey do place some locks but is not you have to by more just because you update hardware.Jul 03 11:54
oiaohmRHEL is independant to hardware really.Jul 03 11:55
tinhatnoidas is MS reallyJul 03 11:55
oiaohmNo its not.Jul 03 11:55
oiaohmMS licences lot of them hardware bind.Jul 03 11:56
tinhatnoidwell ive changed PC's, motherboards, everything, and still used the same OS.Jul 03 11:56
oiaohmRead closer.Jul 03 11:56
oiaohmMS the machine by licence has to be dead to transfer.Jul 03 11:56
oiaohmOther than volume licences.Jul 03 11:56
tinhatnoidI dont have too, ive done it over and over I know its not h/w dependant, and thats really all there is too it, say what you will.Jul 03 11:57
oiaohmRead the licence conditions.Jul 03 11:57
tinhatnoidYou can tell me it cant be dont, but its dont all the time, ive dont it myself routinely and often.Jul 03 11:57
oiaohmJust because you have done it over and over does not meen what you are doing is following the condiction.Jul 03 11:57
tinhatnoidSaying otherwise is just not correct,, sorry.Jul 03 11:58
oiaohmIt is not incorrect.  OEM copies licences are hardware binding licences.Jul 03 11:58
oiaohmFrom MS.Jul 03 11:58
oiaohmYou have not read the licence if I was on a windows machine I would be quoting you the sections out the EULA.Jul 03 11:59
tinhatnoidWell so you keep saying, im telling you thats not anyones real life experiences.Jul 03 11:59
oiaohmJust because you can do something does not make what you are doing is legal tinhatnoidJul 03 12:00
oiaohmOr following the licence conditions.Jul 03 12:00
tinhatnoidits legal because I enable my OS to MS every time, on the net its trivial and takes zero effort.Jul 03 12:01
oiaohmLOLJul 03 12:01
oiaohmI am really dealing with a novice here.Jul 03 12:01
tinhatnoidsure ok, LOLJul 03 12:01
oiaohmWindows activation does not really inforce the licence conditions to the letter.Jul 03 12:02
tinhatnoidand we should believe you know better because of your years of MS experience ?Jul 03 12:02
tinhatnoidok whatever,, you win :)Jul 03 12:02
oiaohmI have see businesses on the end of a audit.Jul 03 12:02
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oiaohmFor illegal software tinhatnoidJul 03 12:02
oiaohmStunts like what you are describing have landed them huge fines.Jul 03 12:03
oiaohmThat is when you find out what true licence inforcement is.Jul 03 12:03
tinhatnoidYes, so have i, and ive happily logged into MS and registers my S/W with them, its all totally legal and I would happily be audited.Jul 03 12:03
tinhatnoidIF you abide by the law you have nothing to worry about.Jul 03 12:04
oiaohmDell OEM licence software found on white boxs.Jul 03 12:04
oiaohmWas one case were every one of the white boxs were classed as pirate copies.Jul 03 12:04
oiaohmEven that the license stickers and everything was accounted for.Jul 03 12:05
tinhatnoidDell OEM license, so what ?Jul 03 12:05
oiaohmDell provided OEM licences of XP.Jul 03 12:05
tinhatnoidDont buy Dell if  you dont like them.Jul 03 12:05
oiaohmDue to what is in the standard OEM EULA licence the transfer was invalid.Jul 03 12:06
tinhatnoidlast I checked Dell is not Microsoft,Jul 03 12:06
MinceRdon't buy laptops if you don't like windowsJul 03 12:06
MinceRthere, fixed that for you.Jul 03 12:06
MinceRor rather, don't buy premade computers if you don't like windowsJul 03 12:07
oiaohmEach big makers OEM disks are slightly different and are detectable.Jul 03 12:07
MinceRsounds a lot like tying, doesn't it?Jul 03 12:07
MinceRso much like tying that in fact this is what we call tyingJul 03 12:07
tinhatnoidtying what to what again ?Jul 03 12:07
MinceRread your buffer/log, i'm not going to repeat everything three times every day because you don't have a brain.Jul 03 12:09
tinhatnoidI did read what you said about tying SW to the computer but thats not what tying is by the definition of tying, so what else do you want me to read ?Jul 03 12:11
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tinhatnoidSo far my log fails to show anywhere that you have said what two products MS tell or one it sells that ties to another MS product they sell, as per the definition of tying. ?Jul 03 12:12
tinhatnoid*sellJul 03 12:12
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oiaohmIf you aquired your MS windows in retail box  it don't have the hardware restriction in its licence.  Also the newer OEM licence is a bugger only can be sold with fully assembed computers unless you live in country that forbids that restriction.Jul 03 12:19
oiaohmReally tinhatnoid is funny.   OEM versions are cheaper for the simple reason they are hardware bound by licence.Jul 03 12:23
tinhatnoidand yet its still not a problem for everyone !! go figure i guess. ive used OEM and boxed versions and still no problems here, some might but I dont know anyone yet that actually has.  and I upgrade and replace peoples PC's for a living.Jul 03 12:25
tinhatnoidbut there is little point arguing, you have your opinion and I have mine, but I am still waiting to find out the 2 products are tying together. but thats another day I guess :)Jul 03 12:26
oiaohmModernday OEM licences are linked to motherboards.Jul 03 12:27
oiaohmYou will get away with it for a while longer.Jul 03 12:28
tinhatnoidok,Jul 03 12:28
oiaohmDon't cry when it magically stops working.Jul 03 12:28
oiaohmIts simply that you have not read the licences you are dealing with.Jul 03 12:28
tinhatnoidbut I thought we were talking about MS who are not an OEM.Jul 03 12:28
oiaohmMS OEM licences.Jul 03 12:28
oiaohmThe are motherboard binding.Jul 03 12:29
oiaohmthe/theyJul 03 12:29
oiaohmMS is about the only company that sells licences of that type.Jul 03 12:29
tinhatnoidso its MS's license  yes not the OEM's license. And i guess Vista is "modernday" ive changed Mobo's on "MS OEM licenses" but again, I had not problems at all but thats just meJul 03 12:30
oiaohmMS is not enforcing the licence to its letter with activation.Jul 03 12:31
oiaohmBy the licence they are in there right to refuse activation of a motherboard swap or classed a motherboard swaped with a OEM licence as pirated.Jul 03 12:32
tinhatnoidIm wondering if you know what EULA stands for ? particularly the EU bit, (no not eupopian union)Jul 03 12:32
oiaohmend user licence agreementJul 03 12:32
oiaohmOf course I know what it stands for.  I am a registered MS system builder.Jul 03 12:33
tinhatnoidyes, end user.Jul 03 12:33
oiaohmAs a system builder I have access to a key that allows me to run machines not activated.Jul 03 12:34
oiaohmTo install and configure.Jul 03 12:35
oiaohmFor machines I may change my mind about.Jul 03 12:35
oiaohmThe end user is not a loop hole tinhatnoid for the owner of the machine.Jul 03 12:36
tinhatnoidyes, I know, i was just making the point the end user is not the OEMJul 03 12:37
oiaohmYou doing the alteration might be able to legally walk away from the agreement but the end user ie the owner is still nuked.Jul 03 12:37
oiaohmOEM software has different EULA to boxed sets.Jul 03 12:37
tinhatnoidokJul 03 12:38
oiaohmIts important to be aware of the differences.Jul 03 12:39
oiaohmParticularly if you are in a country where they apply.Jul 03 12:39
oiaohmThe restriction on only selling OEM software with fully built systems here does not apply.  But the motherboard lock does.Jul 03 12:40
oiaohmYou have not stated your country tinhatnoid you might be lucky to be sitting in a country where motherboard locking of software is illegal.Jul 03 12:41
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oiaohmAnd that would explain it working.Jul 03 12:42
oiaohmYes EULA restrictions alter country to country.Jul 03 12:42
oiaohmRedhat conditions are designed to be the same no matter what country you are in.  I really wish MS would just do that.Jul 03 12:45
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oiaohmAlso Redhat does not have different licences for OEM provided and box sets.   MS licencing is more complex than it really needs to beJul 03 12:52
oiaohmI think you had a simple case of not understanding the MS licensing complexities.   tinhatnoidJul 03 12:57
oiaohmAnything interesting in the nwsJul 03 13:03
oiaohmnewsJul 03 13:03
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[davidgerard] kubuntu 9.10 on celery, will aptitude install ubuntu-netbook-remix. trident driver in xorg 1.6.2rc1 set screen to 800x600. grah.Jul 03 13:08
oiaohm  O boy waht is the world coming to.Jul 03 13:09
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MinceRi'm waiting for Pong: The Movie.Jul 03 13:13
oiaohmHmm that could be fun.Jul 03 13:14
oiaohmPong the evolution.Jul 03 13:15
oiaohmStart of at pong and by end of Movie be 3d tennis.Jul 03 13:15
harrytuttlehello, just ask again if there is anyone who could manage to pack and maintain a distribution like Ubuntu?Jul 03 13:23
PetoKrausno one can manage to do something as badJul 03 13:25
PetoKraus:)Jul 03 13:25
MinceR:)Jul 03 13:25
oiaohmTeams maintain distrobutions.Jul 03 13:27
oiaohmQuality of team member selection effects quality of distributions.Jul 03 13:28
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harrytuttlehow hard would it then to repack ubuntu?Jul 03 13:53
harrytuttlelike without mono and some other default apps?Jul 03 13:53
MinceRshouldn't be difficult, there should be howtos or wiki entries on how to remaster the discsJul 03 13:53
harrytuttleis there already an "official" ubuntu-based version without mono?Jul 03 13:59
MinceRi haven't heard of any as such, but gNewSense might exclude monoJul 03 13:59
harrytuttlegNewSense yeah, wasnt there an ubuntu remix with all free stuff (like non-blob-drivers?)Jul 03 14:00
harrytuttleor was that cancelled?Jul 03 14:01
MinceRiirc there was gobuntu, but iirc that was cancelled in favor of gNewSenseJul 03 14:03
MinceRgNewSense is an ubuntu-based distro, afaikJul 03 14:04
harrytuttleah okayJul 03 14:04
harrytuttlei saw there is already plans for GNUbuntuJul 03 14:05
harrytuttlefree as in freedom ubuntuJul 03 14:05
harrytuttlesomewhat like gnewsenseJul 03 14:05
MinceR:)Jul 03 14:06
oiaohmThere are utils around to repack distrobutions.Jul 03 14:07
MinceRi think i'll install debian on my new laptopJul 03 14:07
oiaohmCustomising distributions for need is something I do quite a bit.Jul 03 14:07
oiaohmBut I don't class myself as a distribution maintainer.Jul 03 14:08
harrytuttleoiaohm: i googled a bit and found that stallmann didnt like the name gnubuntu, hence there was gobuntuJul 03 14:09
harrytuttleoiaohm: comment above was meant not specifically for you :)Jul 03 14:10
harrytuttleoiaohm: you do that as part of job or personal use?Jul 03 14:12
oiaohmPart of job.Jul 03 14:14
oiaohmCustomised server configurations and the like embed straight in installer.Jul 03 14:14
oiaohmSo restore of systems is fast.Jul 03 14:15
MinceRalso, now canonical likely won't tolerate any name that contains "ubuntu" eitherJul 03 14:15
harrytuttlesounds interestingJul 03 14:15
harrytuttleso you use ubuntu or debian or else?Jul 03 14:15
oiaohmDepends on client.Jul 03 14:15
oiaohmDebian Ubuntu Redhat and Centos are the top 4.Jul 03 14:16
harrytuttlethinking about doing a prepackaged ubuntu-fork without monoJul 03 14:16
oiaohmAt least Linux's are nicer than building slipstreemed windows.Jul 03 14:16
harrytuttleso to split effects and therefore dimish value of the original ubuntiJul 03 14:17
harrytuttledimish = diminishJul 03 14:17
oiaohmUbuntu depends simply on a debian meta package.Jul 03 14:18
oiaohmIe ubuntu-desktop is a meta package that contains a list of applications to install.Jul 03 14:18
oiaohmIf you just create a new meta package that does not use mono infected parts and builds disk it would work.Jul 03 14:19
oiaohmThat is what xubuntu and others are.Jul 03 14:19
oiaohmMore fun is auto customisaton of configurations.Jul 03 14:19
tinhatnoidIf I were canicial I would be more worried about removing bugs than software. or adding anything.Jul 03 14:21
oiaohm  HP also makes it fairly simple for Linux system admins to start getting there toes into customised distrobutions.Jul 03 14:22 is not really Linux development compadible.Jul 03 14:23
MinceRtinhatnoid: if you were canonical you'd have already signed a patent deal with m$. :>Jul 03 14:23
tinhatnoidNo, thats IBM's claim to fame.Jul 03 14:24
MinceRi didn't know it was IBM who bought SuSe.Jul 03 14:26
tinhatnoidis SuSe Novell's linux ?Jul 03 14:28
tinhatnoidim guessing it is,Jul 03 14:28
oiaohmSuse is novell these days.Jul 03 14:29
harrytuttlecan anyone take the ubuntu logo and re-use it?Jul 03 14:29
harrytuttlelike xubuntu, etc.?Jul 03 14:29
oiaohmNo harrytuttle its a trademark.Jul 03 14:29
tinhatnoidI expect its trademarkedJul 03 14:29
oiaohmxubuntu is made by the Ubuntu team.Jul 03 14:29
harrytuttleohkayJul 03 14:29
oiaohmSame with kubuntuJul 03 14:29
harrytuttleso any way to do it similar?Jul 03 14:29
harrytuttlelike when does trademark different enough?Jul 03 14:30
oiaohmSimplest way is not to overlap.Jul 03 14:30
oiaohm  Mint has a ubuntu core hiding under it.Jul 03 14:32
harrytuttlewhat if we provoke a  little and see if ubuntu sues? over software that intends to make ubuntu even more free?Jul 03 14:32
oiaohmThere is nothing that says the Logo has to be kept looking anything the same.Jul 03 14:32
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[davidgerard] #mocknblock @MargaretMcElroy "Wisdom for Today Answers for Tomorrow" here's one: astrology spam = blockJul 03 14:33
harrytuttleoiaohm: could you do a package which works 1:1 copy ubuntu without mono default but all other repositories accesible?Jul 03 14:33
harrytuttlepackage = distroJul 03 14:33
oiaohmYes.Jul 03 14:34
oiaohmapt does support blacklisting packages.Jul 03 14:34
harrytuttleand change some logos and replace with other ones...Jul 03 14:35
MinceRharrytuttle: "n00buntu"? :>Jul 03 14:35
harrytuttleheheJul 03 14:35
harrytuttlegood oneJul 03 14:35
oiaohmIn theory you could provide custom installer with mono blacklisted.Jul 03 14:35
MinceRexplained as an acronym for "No mOnO uBUNTU" :>Jul 03 14:36
oiaohmIts really simple really to black list a package just make a package that is incompadible with the packages you don't want.Jul 03 14:37
oiaohmand have it installed at end of install removing the package you don't want.Jul 03 14:38
harrytuttleokayJul 03 14:39
oiaohm 03 14:40
oiaohmAnd you don't even need to create it for mono.Jul 03 14:40
oiaohmSomeone has done the work for you.Jul 03 14:40
oiaohmYes the mononono package works on all .deb distrobutions.Jul 03 14:41
harrytuttleyeah, but like all monofans seem to be burdened by the hassle of one action more to install mono afterwardsJul 03 14:41
harrytuttlepeople are lazy doing one more step to undo mono afterwardsJul 03 14:41
oiaohmIncluding mononono makes it harder to install mono.Jul 03 14:41
oiaohmWhile mononono is installed all mono install attempts will cause a conflit.Jul 03 14:42
harrytuttleso there should be a default image of ubuntu-fork without anything monoJul 03 14:42
oiaohmxubuntu and kubuntu both don't contain mono.Jul 03 14:43
harrytuttleis vlc installed in ubuntu default?Jul 03 14:43
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oiaohmubuntu is really just a sub branch.Jul 03 14:43
oiaohmYou could also design to add a custom meta package to ubuntu-server and go up from there as well.Jul 03 14:44
oiaohmAlso avoiding mono.Jul 03 14:44
oiaohmBasically there are tones of options to get around the issue just no one has really bothered yet.Jul 03 14:45
tinhatnoidif it ever turns out to be an issue as well.Jul 03 14:45
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oiaohmWhy bother tinhatnoid.  Most Ubuntu users are noobs who really don't know better and really will not listern.Jul 03 14:48
tinhatnoidyes, it does seem to be mainly a beginners distro.Jul 03 14:49
tinhatnoidand most developers would probably use something else anyway, so removing Mono from Ubuntu should have never been an issue, they should just remove it.Jul 03 14:50
tinhatnoidand put it in the repo if you decide you do want it, or even a second repoJul 03 14:51
oiaohm  Its supprisingly simple to make a livecd that you can install with.Jul 03 14:53
EruaranYou want noobs ?Jul 03 14:54
EruaranI'll give you noobsJul 03 14:54
oiaohmHave a installed copy of ubuntu.   Remove the bits you don't want add a few bits you want and remastersystool it.   Remember to provide a disk with the source of the package you used done.Jul 03 14:54
EruaranActually I'll give you completely stupid peopleJul 03 14:54
EruaranHere's todays example from the storeJul 03 14:54
EruaranA woman rang up complaining and carrying on like a complete bitchJul 03 14:55
Eruaranall because someone forgot to put a power lead in the boxJul 03 14:55
Eruaransimple mistakeJul 03 14:55
oiaohmThere is worse.Jul 03 14:55
EruaranI told her she was welcome to come and grab oneJul 03 14:55
Eruaranoh this aint anywhere near finished yetJul 03 14:55
EruaranShe complains and says she expects to be re-imbursed for the petrol for driving her car back to the storeJul 03 14:56
oiaohmI get ordered out to a job that I have fixed remotely because the person the other end does not believe remote access can effect computers.Jul 03 14:56
EruaranShe complains she didn't get next day deliveryJul 03 14:56
EruaranEven though I've told her about five F*&^#*& times that next day delivery is in the metro area onlyJul 03 14:56
EruaranAnd thenJul 03 14:57
EruaranWhen she comes into the storeJul 03 14:57
oiaohmYes a 2 hours by air by the way EruaranJul 03 14:57
oiaohmThat they were paying for.Jul 03 14:57
oiaohmJust to have me turn up show them the logs and that it was fixed.Jul 03 14:57
EruaranShe bad mouths us in front of another customer telling them to check everything because we dont give people all their stuffJul 03 14:57
EruaranTHENJul 03 14:57
oiaohmNormal.Jul 03 14:57
EruaranBy this time I'm fumingJul 03 14:57
oiaohmPerfectly normal.Jul 03 14:57
EruaranShe's got the motherboard manualJul 03 14:58
harrytuttlelolJul 03 14:58
Eruaranand shes trying to quiz me as to why all these cables and things arent in the boxJul 03 14:58
EruaranI'm likeJul 03 14:58
EruaranAre you F#Y#( kidding ?Jul 03 14:58
oiaohmWe have checklists.Jul 03 14:58
EruaranShe wants to know where the floppy cable isJul 03 14:58
oiaohmTo prevent that kind of problems.Jul 03 14:59
EruaranI tell herJul 03 14:59
EruaranShe wants to know where the SATA cables areJul 03 14:59
EruaranOMFGJul 03 14:59
oiaohmNormal.Jul 03 14:59
harrytuttleEruarun: Where you work? sacramento?Jul 03 14:59
EruarannoJul 03 14:59
EruaranI've had itJul 03 14:59
oiaohmWe ask customers when the order if they want all the drive cable or not.Jul 03 14:59
EruaranSo I ask her if she'd like to know where the motherboard is as wellJul 03 15:00
Eruaransince thats not in the box eitherJul 03 15:00
oiaohmYour policies need work EruaranJul 03 15:00
EruaranNo, she was just completely stupidJul 03 15:00
EruaranSomeone made one simple mistake, an oversightJul 03 15:00
oiaohmBoth are at fault here.Jul 03 15:00
EruaranOne simple power cableJul 03 15:00
EruaranEeasy fixedJul 03 15:00
*amarsh04 had great service from a local pc shop... selected bits around noon on a Saturday and was told it was ready to pick up assembled about 3 hours laterJul 03 15:00
oiaohmDo you use checklists to make sure you put everything in Eruaran.Jul 03 15:01
EruaranShe decided to be a completely retarded bitchJul 03 15:01
Eruaranoiaohm: we usually doJul 03 15:01
oiaohmThis case.Jul 03 15:01
oiaohm?Jul 03 15:01
oiaohmI would suspect someone did not.Jul 03 15:01
EruaranSomeone simply overlooked itJul 03 15:01
Eruaranvery busyJul 03 15:01
oiaohmPower cables are on the checklist here.Jul 03 15:01
oiaohmWorst case was having a 20 machine install and finding 8 missing power cables.Jul 03 15:02
EruaranI'm not going to put up with that kind of behaviour just because someone makes one little mistakeJul 03 15:02
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tinhatnoidyes, who's your QA manager ? CONC and all you knowJul 03 15:02
oiaohmEver since we have had it on checklist.Jul 03 15:02
Eruaran?Jul 03 15:02
EruaranThe point isJul 03 15:02
EruaranHer behaviour was completely unjustifiedJul 03 15:02
EruaranI had already talked to her husbandJul 03 15:03
oiaohmHer behavior was over the top correct.Jul 03 15:03
tinhatnoidCONC Cost Of Non Conforming.  is what you had todayJul 03 15:03
EruaranI had already told her husband that we have a power cable for themJul 03 15:03
oiaohmBoth sides are at fault here.Jul 03 15:03
EruaranAnd we had already apologised several timesJul 03 15:04
oiaohmyou screwed up.Jul 03 15:04
oiaohmshe went over the top.Jul 03 15:04
EruaranShe went way over the topJul 03 15:04
oiaohmBasically don't screw up.Jul 03 15:04
Eruaranoh duhJul 03 15:04
Eruarangee what a revelationJul 03 15:04
oiaohmAnd fast tracking of who did what.Jul 03 15:04
EruaranThere's a difference between reasonable and unreasonableJul 03 15:05
tinhatnoidyep, its a hard old world out there,Jul 03 15:05
oiaohmSo you can pass off to the person who build the machine to wear the ear full.Jul 03 15:05
EruaranI was way to busy to have my time wasted by someone who was completely unreasonableJul 03 15:05
oiaohmIt does prevent them from making the mistake again.Jul 03 15:05
oiaohmNo one wants the ear full.Jul 03 15:05
tinhatnoida QA scheme would,Jul 03 15:06
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oiaohmPrice of mistakes is really high at times Eruaran.Jul 03 15:06
EruaranTheres only so many times I'm going to apologize before I say enough is enoughJul 03 15:06
EruaranAnd I'm not going to put up with some bitch impuning our integrity in front of other customersJul 03 15:07
EruaranIf someone wants to do that they can go to the real rip off merchants around the cornerJul 03 15:07
oiaohmIts the way you handle it to.Jul 03 15:08
amarsh04question for 2 fellow .au participants... if your car was hit and made undriveable by another car doing an unsafe overtake on a Saturday night and you had both work and family commitments on the Sunday, and the same insurance company insures both you and the other driver, should the insurance company cover all your taxi fares on the Sunday (given that it would be impractical to arrange a hire car and still keepJul 03 15:08
amarsh04other commitments)?Jul 03 15:08
EruaranIf you don't defend your integrity you look guiltyJul 03 15:08
oiaohmLot of people want to hear that the person resoposable will be made pay.Jul 03 15:08
Eruaranits that simpleJul 03 15:08
oiaohmFor making such a simple mistake so it will never happen again.Jul 03 15:08
oiaohmIts part the art of knowing what they want to hear.  Just Apologizing is a common mistake.Jul 03 15:09
amarsh04I usually like someone who has made a mistake to a apologise and put themselves out a bit to rectify thingsJul 03 15:09
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oiaohmThere is a art to handling.Jul 03 15:10
amarsh04exactlyJul 03 15:11
oiaohmTo the wrong things it explodes.Jul 03 15:11
oiaohmTo/DoJul 03 15:11
oiaohmThe art of handling those things only took me 8 years to get resonable at.Jul 03 15:12
oiaohmAnd I still stuff it from time to time.Jul 03 15:12
oiaohmWorst is the machine you have repaired and keeps on coming back with different defects.Jul 03 15:12
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[trmanco] listening to "Personal Jesus (PH Electro Mix) - G&G" ♫ 03 15:13
oiaohmIt make that lost power cord one look like a minor issue.Jul 03 15:13
amarsh04I inflicted a problem on my new pc by loading a newer BIOS and not resetting the BIOS afterwardsJul 03 15:14
amarsh04trivial thing, but it was annoying to diagnoseJul 03 15:14
oiaohmWorse is finding the bios has been illegal customised to fail every 30 days.Jul 03 15:15
amarsh04ouchJul 03 15:15
oiaohmBy a really under handed IT officer.Jul 03 15:15
oiaohmCurrently serving jail time amarsh04.Jul 03 15:16
oiaohmI have see all kinds of evil amarsh04Jul 03 15:16
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_Hicham__Hi All!Jul 03 15:16
amarsh04hi...Jul 03 15:16
oiaohmHi _Hicham__Jul 03 15:17
_Hicham__oiaohm : I created a mononono rpm versionJul 03 15:17
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[trmanco] listening to "Personal Jesus (Kindervater Remix) Hardstyle - G&G" ♫ 03 15:18
oiaohmThe guy was talking about deb based so I did not cover that option _Hicham__Jul 03 15:18
_Hicham__ah, I seeJul 03 15:18
_Hicham__adding packages to fedora is really difficultJul 03 15:18
amarsh04I'm a bit of a sad case, I haven't learned C, yet I have textbooks autographed by Dennis Ritchie and PJ PlaugherJul 03 15:20
oiaohm 03 15:21
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[trmanco] listening to "Voodoo People (Pendulum Remix) - The Prodigy" ♫ 03 15:23
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[trmanco] listening to "Sidekick- Deep Fear (Phobia Club Remix) - " ♫ 03 15:23
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trmancoanybody here use XMPP MUC?Jul 03 15:27
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PetoKraushmmJul 03 15:50
PetoKraus 03 15:50
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-BNc/#boycottnovell-[davidgerard] How free software works in the Balkans, from FLOSS-Kosova: 03 17:23
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-BNc/#boycottnovell-[zoobab] NZOSS submission on software patents: 03 17:48
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-BNc/#boycottnovell-[trmanco] Acção da Greenpeace em Lisboa: LOOOLJul 03 21:13
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[_goblin] "Some Vista users say they're getting the Ultimate shaft" #vista #microsoftJul 03 21:43
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-BNc/#boycottnovell-[trmanco] Mono developer uses f-word to abuse RMS: 03 21:58
trmancoMono developer uses f-word to abuse RMS: 03 21:58
trmancoLOLJul 03 21:58
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ThistleWebany particular f word? I believe there is more than oneJul 03 22:03
trmancoI just saved the pageJul 03 22:04
amarsh04f-spot? (-:Jul 03 22:10
ThistleWeblolJul 03 22:11
ThistleWebthere's a whole dictionary to pick from, then you can switch languages and start againJul 03 22:12
twitter1This defense raised an alarm for me the other day, "So, Debian didn't change the default installation (whatever that's supposed to be) but the dependency of a package which is used by a minority of our users who explicitly wishes to install everything GNOME related "Jul 03 22:21
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twitter1I've seen this "whatever that's supposed to be" used before.Jul 03 22:21
twitter1The most obvious meaning of "default" is what the Debian installer choses.Jul 03 22:21
twitter1Alexander Reichle-Schmehl points to the gnome desktop environment package, 03 22:23
twitter1The question of "default" installation should more properly concentrate on what the installer does with it's "desktop environment" install option.Jul 03 22:24
twitter1This currently only offers Gnome.Jul 03 22:24
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twitter1it would be better still to answer the question, "is mono free software?"Jul 03 22:28
twitter1Patent encumbered software is not considered free.Jul 03 22:29
twitter1Because these issues and confusing to a novice, they should never work there way into an install.Jul 03 22:29
twitter1mono, if it is offered at all, should be relegated to non-free or contrib where novices will never have to worry about them.Jul 03 22:30
trmancoI just saved the pages myselfJul 03 22:34
trmancomaybe in a couple of year I can laughJul 03 22:34
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-BNc/#boycottnovell-[_goblin] "Windows 7..deja vu edition?" #microsoft #windows 7 #7 #vistaJul 03 23:43
_GoblinHi all...Jul 03 23:44
_Goblinlast story on BN dated the 1st of Roy on holiday?Jul 03 23:45
trmanco_Goblin, yeah, something like that I guessJul 03 23:50
_Goblinah..Jul 03 23:51
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