IRC: #boycottnovell @ FreeNode: July 4th, 2009

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yuhongBTW, for some background on OS/2, here is a good site:Jul 04 01:10
yuhong 04 01:10
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yuhongBTW, for some background on OS/2, here is a good site:Jul 04 01:19
yuhong 04 01:19
oiaohmMS miss treating partners goes back to there first one.  Most people are not aware of that.Jul 04 01:22
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yuhongMS for example back in 1983 abused the fact that it was writing software for the Mac to gain enough access to Apple to write a clone of Mac called Windows.Jul 04 01:25
yuhongApple in the Win 1.x days didn't care, since that clone was poor.Jul 04 01:25
yuhongBut 2.x was good enough that it led to a lawsuit from Apple.Jul 04 01:25
yuhongMS won only because of a problem in an agreement signed back in the 1.x days.Jul 04 01:26
oiaohmRead that ruling more closely.Jul 04 01:26
yuhongMS was not the only one to get a lawsuit by Apple BTW, DRI got a lawsuit from Apple for GEM.Jul 04 01:27
oiaohmLot of things apple was trying to apply protections on were like recent patent ruling.Jul 04 01:27
yuhongDRI lost and ended up have to cripple GEM.Jul 04 01:27
oiaohmLike Trash.Jul 04 01:27
oiaohmAnd recycle bin.Jul 04 01:27
oiaohmBoth are directly taken from real world and made electronic then tried to be protected.Jul 04 01:28
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[_goblin] Note to all: How to get "cheap" follows - Engage in a bit of follow friday! How to make yourself appear popular! #microsoft #windows #vistaJul 04 01:28
oiaohmAll the need for the recent ruling on patents could have been avoided if someone had bothered reading the apple ruling.Jul 04 01:28
oiaohmAnd followed itJul 04 01:28
Balrog_some of the API was similar between Windows and the Mac operating system back thenJul 04 01:29
yuhongYep.Jul 04 01:29
oiaohmSome of the API in windows was also similar to X11 in both of them.Jul 04 01:29
Balrog_but even before that agreement, a very small portion of the claims were upheldJul 04 01:29
Balrog_(before the agreement was brought up)Jul 04 01:30
Balrog_the few remaining claims (of Apple) were invalid because of that agreementJul 04 01:30
oiaohmFonts was a big one where MS lost in that dispute.Jul 04 01:30
Balrog_what about fonts?Jul 04 01:30
oiaohmMS has been paying Apple even since.Jul 04 01:30
yuhongLinks that ruling please.Jul 04 01:30
oiaohmHinting.Jul 04 01:30
Balrog_oh ... is it true that you can't copyright a typeface in the US?Jul 04 01:30
yuhongYep, the war between Type 1 and TrueType.Jul 04 01:31
Balrog_but isn't TrueType partially from MS?Jul 04 01:31
oiaohmThe hinting system in Truetype is from a old apple hardware system.Jul 04 01:32
yuhongYep, it was actually a partnership between Apple and MS against Adobe's Type 1.Jul 04 01:32
oiaohmApple holds the key patents.Jul 04 01:32
Balrog_though they're set to expire soonJul 04 01:32
oiaohmNot reallyJul 04 01:32
oiaohmThey are hardware patents.Jul 04 01:32
Balrog_hmmm which ones?Jul 04 01:33
oiaohmLonger live than software ones.Jul 04 01:33
oiaohmAll the apple patents covering font hinting.Jul 04 01:33
Balrog_ahh.Jul 04 01:33
Balrog_I heard the software ones are soon expiringJul 04 01:34
oiaohmThere is about another 5 years to go on the apple patents.Jul 04 01:37
oiaohmso not what you call really soon.Jul 04 01:37
oiaohmmp3 is about 2 years off.Jul 04 01:38
yuhong 04 01:38
Balrog_hmm I thought it was soonerJul 04 01:39
yuhong"I have read allegations that Microsoft's WLO is a blatant ripoff of Micrografx Mirrors, a similar product developed earlier by Micrografx. Supposedly Microsoft's application division was offered to evaluate Mirrors for potential use in Microsoft products, on the condition that Microsoft systems division doesn't learn the details. Looks like they did - not very surprising given Microsoft's...Jul 04 01:39
yuhong...track record. "Jul 04 01:39
Balrog_looking from 04 01:39
yuhongNow, thinking about it, both incidents should question the existance of a "chinese wall" inside ms.Jul 04 01:39
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TinhatGuygee, you have to go back to 1983 to hit on MS !!!. thats like last millinium !Jul 04 02:05
twitter1M$ is rather 20th century.Jul 04 02:08
twitter1***twitter ignores TinhatGuy, a troll with an annoying name.Jul 04 02:09
TinhatGuysensitive little thing arnt you :)Jul 04 02:09
TinhatGuyits amazing how people can come here and make all sorts of wild claims, but when someone questions them they get upset, "Truth, you cant handle the truth"!!!Jul 04 02:19
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_Hicham_which truth?Jul 04 02:31
TinhatGuySorry, mabey I should of said facts, but the truth is out there !!Jul 04 02:33
_Hicham_which truth?Jul 04 02:36
TinhatGuywell there is only one truth, so take your pick.Jul 04 02:37
yuhongRight now I am exprimenting with gcc inline asm, which I am new to.Jul 04 02:43
yuhongI am starting with the rdtsc instruction.Jul 04 02:43
_Hicham_yuhong : on Linux?Jul 04 02:45
yuhongyes.Jul 04 02:46
_Hicham_what distro are u using ?Jul 04 02:46
yuhongUbuntu, and I have written a simple program that executes the rdtsc instruction and measure the difference.Jul 04 02:46
yuhongusing GCC inline asm.Jul 04 02:47
_Hicham_greatJul 04 02:47
yuhongA line from it:Jul 04 02:48
yuhongasm ("rdtsc" :"=A" (values[i]));Jul 04 02:48
yuhongOutput:Jul 04 02:51
yuhongasm ("rdtsc" :"=A" (values[i]));Jul 04 02:51
yuhong135 108 108 99 108 108 99 108 108 99 108 108 99 108 108 99 108 108 99 108 108 99 108 108 99 108 108 99 108 108 99 108 108 99 108 108 99 108 108 99 108 108 99 108 108 99 108 108 99Jul 04 02:51
yuhongThe loop:Jul 04 02:51
yuhongfor (i=0; i<COUNT; i++)Jul 04 02:52
yuhong{Jul 04 02:52
yuhong          asm ("rdtsc" :"=A" (values[i]));Jul 04 02:52
yuhong}Jul 04 02:52
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oiaohmTinhatGuy: Are you the same one who did not understand MS licencing that was here before?Jul 04 02:59
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TinhatGuyNo I understant licenses just fine thanks, but I was the one you were talking too yes.Jul 04 03:06
TinhatGuyIts not a matter of understanding anyway, its a matter of what is, lots of things happen that I dont understand, does not make them any more or less real.Jul 04 03:08
TinhatGuyLike I dont understand the paranoia over MS or Mono, but that does not make that paranoia any less real, (or damaging).Jul 04 03:09
TinhatGuyand are you the guy who did not understand what tying is ? even after providing the link for us to read. ?Jul 04 03:12
TinhatGuy 04 03:30
oiaohmTinhatGuy: There are valid tech reasons.Jul 04 03:47
oiaohm.Net design not really compadible in a Linux system.Jul 04 03:48
oiaohmIt was designed for PE exectuable based OS's.Jul 04 03:48
oiaohmLinux is ELF.   Then there are other intergration issues.Jul 04 03:48
oiaohmThen there is the simple fact no one can answer the patent status from MS on the .net standard.Jul 04 03:51
oiaohmThey created the .net standard they should really know if they are want to enforce Patents against it or not TinhatGuyJul 04 03:52
oiaohmWe are really not asking for much.   A simple clear defined public statement on it would make it so simple.  Does not help that the head of MS has said other wise a few times either.Jul 04 03:52
TinhatGuyall MS is saying, and its obvious, that it is possible to write code that breaks patents using C# JUST like you can with C, ASSM, C++, pascal, forth and any other language you choose.Jul 04 03:53
TinhatGuytheir statement would be "yes, you can write patent encumbered code in any computer language" .Jul 04 03:53
oiaohmSun answered on the core implemented paths.Jul 04 03:53
oiaohmWith java.Jul 04 03:54
oiaohmSimple statement any patent of thiers used to implement java will not be applied.Jul 04 03:54
oiaohmTo anyone creating a implementation.Jul 04 03:54
oiaohmReally simple statement by by patent issue.Jul 04 03:54
oiaohmMS has failed to do this so simple of steps TinhatGuyJul 04 03:55
TinhatGuyif you write a patented .NET type framework in C or java you will still be liable for patent infringement.Jul 04 03:55
oiaohmBut building a clone of Java implentation you will not get sued from SUN/Orcale over it due to SUN statement.Jul 04 03:56
oiaohm,Net we simply are lacking that statement TinhatGuyJul 04 03:56
TinhatGuyno but building a clone or a patented concept in any languaage willJul 04 03:57
oiaohmSo do you need a patent licence from MS to use Mono or not.Jul 04 03:57
TinhatGuywhat are they going to say ??Jul 04 03:57
oiaohmIf you build it independant to Novel is not answered.Jul 04 03:57
TinhatGuyall they can say is that YES, you can write code that infringes on patents in any language,Jul 04 03:58
oiaohmWhat is not answering.Jul 04 03:58
oiaohmEveryone already knows that fact.Jul 04 03:58
TinhatGuyTOMTOM FAT was/is patented, its written in C, so do you now want to strip all C out of Linux ?Jul 04 03:58
oiaohmAnd the patented section is being removed from Linux.Jul 04 03:59
TinhatGuyThats right, so whats the issue with using C#, and yes i do know the issues with .NET because like FAT it may be patent encumbered, so you cannot implement it in any langauge.Jul 04 03:59
oiaohmYou don't really need any of those patents to build a clone of C do you.Jul 04 03:59
TinhatGuywere not talking about building a clone of a computer programming language,Jul 04 04:00
oiaohmThis case patents MS could hold could be required to build a C# implementation.Jul 04 04:00
oiaohmI am talking about the right to build a clone TinhatGuyJul 04 04:00
oiaohmAnd use a clone.Jul 04 04:00
oiaohmof the .net framework.Jul 04 04:00
TinhatGuyIt's about using any computer programming language to implement things that are patent protected.Jul 04 04:00
oiaohmThe answer over mono wanted is purely over the right to clone it.Jul 04 04:01
oiaohmDebian builds there own binaries of mono so they are cloning it.Jul 04 04:01
oiaohmThere are legal issues here.Jul 04 04:02
TinhatGuywe'll you cant, you can build a clone of C#, and y ou can make your own .NET type framework that does the same things, (DB access ect,) as long is you dont breach any patents, so you could "clean room" develop your own .LIX framework.Jul 04 04:02
TinhatGuyYes, mono is a development/programming enviroment, .NET is a set of library frameworks for doing specific jobs.Jul 04 04:02
oiaohmSo MS can apply any patent they took out when creating .net when implementing a clone because you are not projected?Jul 04 04:03
TinhatGuysome of which may be patented, so you do your own, why do you have to make exact copies of MS clean room design it, and dont break patents and your fine, problem solvoedJul 04 04:03
oiaohmProtected.Jul 04 04:03
oiaohmMono is not built in a clean room TinhatGuyJul 04 04:03
oiaohmSo you are basically saying mono is not usable.Jul 04 04:04
TinhatGuyMS developed C#, they then put that in the Open Source world, they also developed .NET USING C#Jul 04 04:04
oiaohmSun developed java too.Jul 04 04:04
TinhatGuythey are two different things, its like saying if you can break a patent in C you cannot ever use anything written in C, its just sillyJul 04 04:05
oiaohmBut Sun provided a clear statement on patents.Jul 04 04:05
TinhatGuygood for sun.Jul 04 04:05
oiaohmMS failure to do so is the Issue over .netJul 04 04:05
oiaohmCan we trust MS not to decied to sue distributions using mono for patents?Jul 04 04:05
TinhatGuyas I said, .net is or could be patented code its just written with C#, MS's statement is its patented and propreitary, but your welcome to use C# and develop your own.Jul 04 04:06
oiaohmDoes not mean you can use it.Jul 04 04:07
oiaohmMS welcomed people using FAT as well.Jul 04 04:07
oiaohmThen sued latter.Jul 04 04:07
TinhatGuythey would have huge trouble sueing as its licensed under the GPL.Jul 04 04:07
oiaohmGPL v2 does not cover patents.Jul 04 04:07
oiaohmSo yes they can sue.Jul 04 04:07
TinhatGuythe one i have here doesJul 04 04:07
oiaohmGPLv3 does.Jul 04 04:08
oiaohmGPLv2 does not.Jul 04 04:08
TinhatGuypretty sure its the same GPL'v2 that everyone else knows, the one good enough for the Linux kernelJul 04 04:08
oiaohmOtherwise lame could be used without requiring a MP3 licence.Jul 04 04:08
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oiaohmLinux kernel over 100 000 patents.Jul 04 04:08
oiaohmThat are licenced to be used.Jul 04 04:08
TinhatGuyall the same, if you want me too, ill cut and paste the part of the GPLv2 that related to patents, then you can explain  yourself.Jul 04 04:09
oiaohmLinux kernel basically would not exist if it did not have patents licence for use.Jul 04 04:09
oiaohmCode working on RCU got a rude shock it was his code.   RCU is a IBM patent.  its only allowed to be under GPL licences cannot be relicenced to LGPL.Jul 04 04:10
oiaohmYes that Is a Linux kernel developer who got the rude shock.Jul 04 04:10
oiaohmLinux kernel developers due to the GPLv2 licence have to obey patents.Jul 04 04:10
oiaohmAnd the restrictions the patent holders decide to put on them.Jul 04 04:11
TinhatGuy"For example, if a patent"Jul 04 04:11
oiaohmDon't bother with the look at the GPLv2 on the Linux kernel.  You have not read the mail list to see the thousands and thousands of different restrictions that the Linux kernel developers have to obey.Jul 04 04:12
oiaohmDue to patents.Jul 04 04:12
oiaohmPatents are no laughing matter.Jul 04 04:12
TinhatGuyFor example, if a patent license would not permit royalty-free redistribution of the Program by all those who receive copies directly or indirectly through you, then the only way you could satisfy both it and this License would be to refrain entirely from distribution of the Program."Jul 04 04:13
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oiaohmThose exist TinhatGuyJul 04 04:14
oiaohmNovell agreement with MS is written very much that way.   If you are a Novell user MS will not sue you.Jul 04 04:15
TinhatGuythats from GPLv2Jul 04 04:15
TinhatGuysaying if there are patent issues, you cannot license or distribute the software under the GPLv2.Jul 04 04:16
TinhatGuyTo i have to explain the GPL to you ?Jul 04 04:16
oiaohmWhat means Novell should be able to answer question.Jul 04 04:17
oiaohmAlso not all of mono is GPLv2Jul 04 04:17
oiaohmLot was change to a MIT licence without that protection.Jul 04 04:17
oiaohmReason why pointing at the Linux kernel is invalid.Jul 04 04:18
TinhatGuyall of Mono is GPLv2 and MIT, 100% is what you have to check on the checkbox when you install it.  infact it is pure GPLv2 on the downloaed software and agreementJul 04 04:18
oiaohmMIT does not require you to display the agreement.Jul 04 04:19
porterGuess what? Nobody but Linux geeks cares. People want programs that work. They are not interested in some religious war.Jul 04 04:19
oiaohmMIT sections are not protected by GPLv2 in any way.Jul 04 04:19
neighborleeporter, religious war to you maybe..not to those that really care and use linux.Jul 04 04:19
TinhatGuyits still licensed under the GPL, and you can still use that GPL to defend yourself as it states that it wont have patents or it cant be shipped.Jul 04 04:19
porterI'm seriousJul 04 04:19
oiaohmporter: people building devices car if they can sue.Jul 04 04:19
TinhatGuysay what you like, thats the factsJul 04 04:19
oiaohmTinhatGuy: the api is not.Jul 04 04:20
porterThe facts are Windows is cleaning Linux's clock despite piles of garbage like VistaJul 04 04:20
neighborleeTinhatGuy, just ask sure they'd be happy to provide you a ahem..license to use it ,,maybe not''Jul 04 04:20
neighborleeand lets not get started talking about patents...Jul 04 04:20
oiaohmDepends what market porterJul 04 04:20
neighborleeespecially not for ONE app.Jul 04 04:20
neighborlee:)Jul 04 04:21
porterPatents can be good. Patents can be bad. Discuss?Jul 04 04:21
oiaohmMS is losing in the high end.Jul 04 04:21
neighborleeoiaohm, easilyJul 04 04:21
porterServers MS is getting killed.Jul 04 04:21
oiaohmMS is not really gaining grip in the embed.Jul 04 04:21
TinhatGuywell like linus torvalds, I trust and respect the GPL either version, if you stop doing that what will happen to the backbone of FOSS ?Jul 04 04:21
oiaohmLinux is gaining grip there.Jul 04 04:21
porterI respect authority and ownership.Jul 04 04:21
oiaohmLinus torvalds has the Linux foundation that provides legal support to developers to understand patent restrictions around the linux kernel at no charage to the developers commerical or other wise.Jul 04 04:22
oiaohmTinhatGuy: You really need to look closer at Mono if you do you will find its multi licence prick.Jul 04 04:23
porterAnd that is a major problem, perception wise with Linux. It scares people awayJul 04 04:23
TinhatGuyso he's a responsible citizen, abiding by the law, thats just swell.Jul 04 04:23
oiaohmAnd is basically useless without the MIT parts.Jul 04 04:23
TinhatGuyive got the mono license right here, and its word for word the GPLv2Jul 04 04:24
oiaohm  << read TinhatGuyJul 04 04:25
oiaohmThe class libraries are released under the terms of the MIT X11 ( license.Jul 04 04:25
oiaohmClass libraries most .net programs depend on to operate.Jul 04 04:25
oiaohmWithout them nothing basically works TinhatGuyJul 04 04:25
TinhatGuyyes, so what you have to do is write your, or would you like them to write everything for you, and send you a binary ?? oh wait (they allready do).Jul 04 04:27
oiaohmNot for every platform TinhatGuyJul 04 04:27
TinhatGuywhats wrong with writing your own stuff, using C# or whatever you like, you know innovateJul 04 04:27
tessier 04 04:27
tessierBrilliant indictment of MSJul 04 04:27
tessierOpen source software comes in only one edition: AWESOEMJul 04 04:28
tessierAWESOMEJul 04 04:28
tessiertooJul 04 04:28
oiaohmAlso read there gplv2 state ment on embeding in devices TinhatGuy.Jul 04 04:28
oiaohmThe C# compiler is dual-licensed under the MIT/X11 license and the GNU General Public License ( (GPL).  << is also another important watch.Jul 04 04:29
oiaohmAs they replace bits in the main engine they are slowly doing away with the GPLv2Jul 04 04:29
oiaohmSo yes in future it could be completely not protected by GPL.Jul 04 04:29
TinhatGuyso what ?Jul 04 04:30
oiaohmThen you don't have patent protection at all.Jul 04 04:32
oiaohmWe want it resolved now.Jul 04 04:32
oiaohmThat simple.Jul 04 04:32
oiaohmRemember at one point it all was GPL or LGPL.Jul 04 04:33
oiaohmNo MIT in mix.Jul 04 04:33
porterI write code for Linux, I use certain libraries. Do I have to give my code away? It's a mess.Jul 04 04:33
oiaohmReally.Jul 04 04:33
oiaohmYou have not read the legal paper work on it.Jul 04 04:33
oiaohmDynamic linking to GPL no you don't have to give it away its a indenpendant work porter.Jul 04 04:34
porterthe perception in the industry is yes. I must give my code awayJul 04 04:34
oiaohmOnly idiot sections of the industry.Jul 04 04:34
porterit's the confusion factor either wayJul 04 04:34
TinhatGuyif you write C code or C++ with GCC and you use GCC's libraries you are not tied or held to the GPL you can license it anyway you want.Jul 04 04:35
porterno real world sectionsJul 04 04:35
oiaohmSame ones who get done for breaching other licence agreements in time normally porterJul 04 04:35
oiaohmReal world has a lot of idiots.Jul 04 04:35
porterBreaches occur all the time, that's a givenJul 04 04:35
oiaohmTinhatGuy: GCC has extention in there licence so you don't breach.Jul 04 04:35
TinhatGuyits totally allowed and legal to write proprietary code using Free tools and libsJul 04 04:36
oiaohmAllowing more freedom can be embedded in GPL licences.Jul 04 04:36
porterAssuming you know where to look and take the time to decipher itJul 04 04:36
oiaohmAny software source aquire required company to read and obey licence.Jul 04 04:36
porterdevelopers are at the bottom of the food chain. Suits make the decisions. they are afraid of LinuxJul 04 04:37
oiaohmThis can be NDA protected source code or open source.Jul 04 04:37
oiaohmIf upper staff are idiots there is nothing you can really do.Jul 04 04:37
TinhatGuygo to the FSF web site, and read RMS's Q&A on the  GPL, he explains it there that you can write proprietray code using GCC and Gcc libs.Jul 04 04:37
oiaohmThey will most likely be the same idiots who break a NDA.Jul 04 04:37
porteryou keep calling everyone an idiot. to me that says you have no clue other than your agendaJul 04 04:38
oiaohmand say something public the NDA did not approve.Jul 04 04:38
porterthe public hates linuxJul 04 04:38
oiaohmNot everyone.Jul 04 04:38
oiaohmI have worked with lots of companies that have great licence policies.Jul 04 04:38
TinhatGuymost dont even know what it is,Jul 04 04:38
oiaohmThey have no problems working with open source in products.Jul 04 04:38
oiaohmOr NDA aquired sources.Jul 04 04:39
oiaohmThe ones who don't have good policy and staff managing normally end up out of business.Jul 04 04:39
oiaohmDue to higher costs.Jul 04 04:39
oiaohmAnd legal screw ups.Jul 04 04:39
oiaohmIts that simple.Jul 04 04:39
TinhatGuyor making $4 billion per month or more !Jul 04 04:39
oiaohmPublic does not really hate Linux.Jul 04 04:39
oiaohmMS uses BSD and GPL code in places.Jul 04 04:40
oiaohmAnd legally obeys the licences.Jul 04 04:40
TinhatGuyno they dont, they just dont have a clue what it is,Jul 04 04:40
oiaohmThey do.Jul 04 04:40
porterlinux netbooks were side by side with Windows netbooks. guess which version won?Jul 04 04:40
TinhatGuythen again, ask them what OS they use, you normally get "I dont know".Jul 04 04:40
portertrue,,,tinJul 04 04:40
porterthey think the os is just another program, like AOLJul 04 04:41
oiaohmCould MS maintain there OS price in the Netbook war.Jul 04 04:41
oiaohmAnswer no porter.Jul 04 04:41
oiaohmMS lost.Jul 04 04:41
porterlinux is free. microsoft is not.Jul 04 04:41
oiaohmMarket share is not everything.Jul 04 04:41
porteryes it isJul 04 04:41
porterif you want to surviveJul 04 04:42
oiaohmMS XP on netbooks is basically free.Jul 04 04:42
TinhatGuyyou say lost, but selling lots of netbooks with a small profit for each one, its better than selling millions of netbooks and making nothing off each one.Jul 04 04:42
oiaohmMS changes about 25 dollars for XP.Jul 04 04:42
porterlinux nb were first by about 3 months lead timeJul 04 04:42
porterlinux is still freeJul 04 04:42
oiaohmAnd will give you 35 dollars for puting MS Office trial on.Jul 04 04:42
TinhatGuyif its basically free, what then differentiates it from FOSS ?Jul 04 04:42
porteron a netbook?Jul 04 04:42
oiaohmSo XP is running at -10 dollars.Jul 04 04:42
oiaohmThat cannot last for ever.Jul 04 04:42
porterwhat differentiates it is people want Windows not LinuxJul 04 04:43
oiaohmMost people truly did not care.Jul 04 04:43
oiaohmAs long as it worked.Jul 04 04:43
porterVista after 3 months had a market share better than Linux after 15 years.Jul 04 04:43
TinhatGuyyes, thats $25 more then Linux will get, and more people will buy the product with XP on it,Jul 04 04:43
porterand vista suxJul 04 04:43
oiaohmTinhatGuy: MS Office were MS pays 35 dollars to the OEM to install it.Jul 04 04:43
oiaohmSo its -10 dollars.Jul 04 04:43
TinhatGuyYes, Vista is the failure FOSS/Linux would just love to have.Jul 04 04:44
twitterThere are more gnu/linux developers than windows developers, ha ha.Jul 04 04:44
twitterThere are more commercial linux developers than Vista developers.Jul 04 04:44
oiaohmLinux kernel was never targeted at desktop.Jul 04 04:44
twitterbut I have to agree, Vista is the pits, windows is like that.Jul 04 04:44
oiaohmIt was suppising that it could get any desktop market share.Jul 04 04:44
oiaohmThinking it was not configured for it.Jul 04 04:44
TinhatGuymabey so, but it takes alot of effort to constantly re-invent the wheel.Jul 04 04:45
oiaohmThat really shows how bad Vista was.Jul 04 04:45
oiaohmPeople were choosing a non desktop OS over it.Jul 04 04:45
twitterno one has to reinvent any wheels in the free software worldJul 04 04:45
twitterthat kind of change is what non free software doesJul 04 04:45
porterWindows 7 is going to pound the final nails in Linux's desktop coffin.Jul 04 04:45
oiaohmThe netbook take off work up intel and others that updated to support desktop function could be profitable.Jul 04 04:46
twitteryeah, right, ha haJul 04 04:46
twitterVista was supposed to do that, remember?Jul 04 04:46
TinhatGuythey dont have to reinvent, but they constantly do,Jul 04 04:46
oiaohmDRI2 and KMS alterations.Jul 04 04:46
porterif Linux couldn't take advantage of the shit Vista, it's completey impotentJul 04 04:46
oiaohmBring graphical side of Linux desktop level.Jul 04 04:46
twitterI'll have to ignore you now, porter.  laterJul 04 04:47
oiaohmMerge of realtime tree also brings audio up to desktop level.Jul 04 04:47
oiaohmIntergration of cuse in 2.6.31 allows closed source drivers on Linux.Jul 04 04:47
porterTwatter?  You have about 200 nyms on /.  you're a phonyJul 04 04:47
TinhatGuydidnt they just re-invent FAT recently, and what about every distro, how many IDE's do you have, desktops a plenty, no you dont re-invent over and over.Jul 04 04:47
oiaohmThat are kernel independant.Jul 04 04:47
oiaohmSo soon you will be facing a desktop class kernel in Linux.Jul 04 04:47
oiaohmThat will create interesting.Jul 04 04:48
neighborleeporter, you vastly understimate the power of foss, and the zero cost in using it ;)Jul 04 04:48
porterNobody cares....that's the problem with Linux users, they get involved in all the gisly details but miss the forest because of the treesJul 04 04:48
oiaohmAlso Windows 7 needs 4 times as much as Linux to run well.Jul 04 04:48
neighborleeporter, compare that to the cost of owing windows....give me a break....Jul 04 04:48
porterI'm in good company because Linux has yet to hit the 1 percent desktop barrier.Jul 04 04:48
porterWindows 7 is overpriced IMHO,. Linux is only free if you have the timeJul 04 04:49
oiaohmOnce the kernel is desktop class.   The rest will improve.Jul 04 04:49
oiaohmFairly quickly.Jul 04 04:49
TinhatGuywhat did I work out, Win XP cost me about $1.40 per month amortized over the time of useJul 04 04:49
porterThe kernel is the best part. Fix X, Sound, Cups etcJul 04 04:49
TinhatGuyand Win7 is faster than XP on the same hardware.Jul 04 04:49
porterthe kernel is solidJul 04 04:49
oiaohmX and sound fixs depend on kernel fixes.Jul 04 04:49
porterNope. Win7 is slower IMHO. It's still beta thoughJul 04 04:50
oiaohmCups is the same on Linux as apple.Jul 04 04:50
porterGet rid of the 10 different Linux soud systemsJul 04 04:50
oiaohmBasically have.Jul 04 04:50
porterGet rid of the 8 different package managersJul 04 04:50
porterSettle on one GUIJul 04 04:50
porterthat worksJul 04 04:50
oiaohmPackaging most of that will be one GUI.Jul 04 04:50
oiaohmThis is your problem.Jul 04 04:51
TinhatGuyand get ontop of the piles of bugs in the systemJul 04 04:51
oiaohmEverything you are talking about the merges are under way.Jul 04 04:51
porterIf linux wants to compete it has to eliminate the fragmentation and concentrate on the good partsJul 04 04:51
TinhatGuywhen though, its been over 17 years allready,Jul 04 04:51
oiaohmThat is happening porter.Jul 04 04:51
porterthat is a good thing oiohmJul 04 04:51
porteroiaohmJul 04 04:51
neighborleeoiaohm, I wont disagree that yes, linux can cost you time,,not all distros are created equal.Jul 04 04:52
oiaohmYou basically don't have your eyes on what is going on.Jul 04 04:52
oiaohmLinux really did not lose the netbook war.Jul 04 04:52
oiaohmLot of netbook makers produced devices that were hybred.Jul 04 04:53
neighborleeoiaohm, what do you mean,,desktop class kernel ?Jul 04 04:53
oiaohmLinux/Windows.Jul 04 04:53
oiaohmA kernel when the X11 crashes does not leave users sitting with a froson screen neighborleeJul 04 04:53
neighborleeoh icJul 04 04:54
neighborleeyes,,,Jul 04 04:54
oiaohmA kernel that can process audio and video to the point of having the synced.Jul 04 04:54
neighborleecrashing is bad when user is left in dustJul 04 04:54
TinhatGuyor you can just use an OS that does not crashJul 04 04:54
oiaohmBasically things that make a desktop users live painful.Jul 04 04:54
neighborleethat or...asked to manuallly send in a 'crash report'Jul 04 04:54
neighborleethats just abysmalJul 04 04:54
oiaohmNo such thing as a OS that will never crash on the desktop TinhatGuyJul 04 04:54
oiaohmNot yet at least.Jul 04 04:55
neighborleeexactlyJul 04 04:55
neighborleenot yetJul 04 04:55
neighborleeim not sure ever ;)Jul 04 04:55
neighborleeOS's will always push will users that use them ;)Jul 04 04:55
oiaohmIf bad block detection in ram can get into Linux kernel that might be come possiable.Jul 04 04:55
TinhatGuywell, you can get very close, I cant remember the last time I had a PC crash on me.Jul 04 04:55
neighborleeand those that would try to bring them down :)Jul 04 04:55
oiaohmIe Linux will get the means to run with bad ram.Jul 04 04:55
oiaohmSometime in the next 12 months.Jul 04 04:55
neighborleeTinhatGuy, close   yesJul 04 04:56
oiaohmEvery time a bad block happens in ram it just never gets used again.Jul 04 04:56
porterno os is perfect. bad ram will affect different os in different waysJul 04 04:56
oiaohmSo increasing uptime.Jul 04 04:56
TinhatGuyand VMS clusters can have uptimes in the decades no problems.Jul 04 04:56
oiaohmWith hot swap ram support you will be able to replace the ram.Jul 04 04:56
porteri find linux to be a great ram tester though. better than windowsJul 04 04:56
TinhatGuywhat your saying is a fault in hardware can cause software to fail, well sure it canJul 04 04:57
neighborleeoiaohm, sound greatJul 04 04:57
neighborleesoundsJul 04 04:57
oiaohmLinux kernel will get more and more resistant to hardware caused falures.Jul 04 04:57
oiaohmDue to going into the embeded markets.Jul 04 04:57
oiaohmIt is kinda a requirement.Jul 04 04:57
neighborleethere is thatJul 04 04:57
porterwhat is needed, for desktops, is chipkill technology like IBM hasJul 04 04:57
TinhatGuyVMS clusters can be hot swapped, so you can upgrade server by server and still have 100% uptime.Jul 04 04:58
oiaohmWhat do you mean chipkill porterJul 04 04:58
porterIBM has chipkill technology where if a certin "dimm" fails, they can fence it off, down to the chip level, and the system keeps runningJul 04 04:59
TinhatGuyI think its something to do with detecting and isolating faulty RAM locationsJul 04 04:59
oiaohmOk Error Checking and Correcting (ECC) computer memory  that is what I am talking about being built in porterJul 04 04:59
oiaohmIBM has already agreed for Linux to use the patent they have on that.Jul 04 05:00
oiaohmIts just getting the code in place.Jul 04 05:00
porteryes they have. the chipkill works with AIX of LinuxJul 04 05:00
oiaohmAlso there will be a software form.Jul 04 05:00
porteror linuxJul 04 05:01
portersorryJul 04 05:01
oiaohmOn linux.Jul 04 05:01
porterthat too :)Jul 04 05:01
oiaohmjust keep the bad zone allocated not to use.Jul 04 05:01
porteryes, at the chip, not necessarily the DIMM, level..that makes a differenceJul 04 05:01
oiaohmLinux has a rep as being a unstable desktop due to X11 issues.Jul 04 05:02
porteralthough it could be a dimm as wellJul 04 05:02
oiaohmHotswap ram that Linux can do now.Jul 04 05:02
porterX11 has tons of features. the problem is most people do not know how to use themJul 04 05:02
oiaohmPlus allocation constol.Jul 04 05:02
oiaohmGives kinda equal.Jul 04 05:02
TinhatGuyfailure rate of hardware is almost zero these days,Jul 04 05:03
oiaohmJust not as fine as IBM circuits.Jul 04 05:03
oiaohmLol TinhatGuyJul 04 05:03
oiaohmHardware failures make up a large ammount of my work.Jul 04 05:03
TinhatGuyMy RAM has a lifetime warrantee, i have not had RAM failed in memory :DJul 04 05:03
oiaohmI really like the lifetime.Jul 04 05:04
oiaohmI had 20 dead ram sticks at one point.Jul 04 05:04
TinhatGuyofcourse it does fail, and people do stupid things and let fans stop and clog up and so on, but a well maintained PC as you know will last a very long timeJul 04 05:04
oiaohmIn a row and that was only about 2 months ago.Jul 04 05:04
porterhardware still fails. the future, according to IBM is to build enough redundency into the product to eliminate outeages for the life of the hardwareJul 04 05:04
oiaohmcgroups are also another Linux plan around hardware failure.Jul 04 05:05
TinhatGuydid you ever think the Mobo you were plugging them into was killing them ?? :DJul 04 05:05
porteryesJul 04 05:05
oiaohmAllow running applications to be transfered to another machine.Jul 04 05:05
porteribm calls it remote mirroringJul 04 05:05
porteror clustering depending upon product lineJul 04 05:05
oiaohmTinhatGuy: my case it was not Mobo.  The luck of batches.Jul 04 05:06
oiaohmAll ram has a particular operational life.Jul 04 05:06
porteri feel your pain tin :)Jul 04 05:06
TinhatGuygeez most chips are tested and QA before dispatch, I would seriously consider your supplier, and if the RAM is counterfeit cheapiesJul 04 05:07
oiaohm20 dead ram from 20 different machines all failed the same day TinhatGuy all from the same batch.Jul 04 05:07
oiaohmAll had run for about the same ammount of time.Jul 04 05:07
oiaohmBasically wore out.Jul 04 05:07
TinhatGuyYes, Im aware of the failure modes of transistors and IC's.Jul 04 05:08
oiaohmDefects in ram can take ages to turn up.Jul 04 05:08
oiaohmThese were all even in the same section of stick.Jul 04 05:08
oiaohmCausing the onboard video cards to stop rendering.Jul 04 05:09
oiaohmLifetime ram does not mean it will run for a lifetime.  They hope it will.Jul 04 05:09
TinhatGuydid they have a little QC blue sticker on them, and did you follow full anti-static procedures ?Jul 04 05:09
oiaohmYepJul 04 05:10
TinhatGuyall ics' and ram are factory tested before dispatch, and they have very strict QA procedures.Jul 04 05:10
oiaohmAnd maker of ram confirmed they were a bad bath.Jul 04 05:10
oiaohmbatch.Jul 04 05:10
oiaohmThat had slipped threw.Jul 04 05:10
oiaohmOnly turned up when they started failing on mass.Jul 04 05:10
TinhatGuyI would be asking serious questions to your supplier then in that case.Jul 04 05:11
oiaohmIt happens.Jul 04 05:11
TinhatGuynot normally no it does not.Jul 04 05:11
oiaohmWhen made there were in tollerageJul 04 05:11
oiaohmheat and age on chips have effects.Jul 04 05:11
oiaohmNot always the most predictable.Jul 04 05:12
TinhatGuythere is still no excuse to ship that many faulty products to a customer, or OEM.Jul 04 05:12
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oiaohmRam will remain for a long time to come one of the most common failure points.Jul 04 05:13
oiaohmLarge the ram gets the higher the risk of a defect.Jul 04 05:13
TinhatGuyyour a computer tech, and you fix more ram that Power supplies ??Jul 04 05:14
TinhatGuyif your having so much trouble with RAM I suggest you find a new and reputable  supplier for RAM.Jul 04 05:14
oiaohmRam and power supplies both are common.Jul 04 05:14
oiaohmNothing is wrong with my supplier.  Its just number of machines I deal with.Jul 04 05:15
oiaohmI have to come accross bad batches from time to time.Jul 04 05:16
TinhatGuyno  problems if your happy getting 40 odd faulty parts from your supplier who am I to complain.Jul 04 05:16
oiaohmThe machines run for 2 years straight TinhatGuyJul 04 05:17
oiaohmNot under light load either.Jul 04 05:17
TinhatGuy2 years is actually quite a short period of time,Jul 04 05:17
oiaohmThey did about equal to 5 years normal desktop usage.Jul 04 05:18
oiaohmSo long enough lot of people will never know about the defective batch.Jul 04 05:18
TinhatGuyI work on systems that have been working 24/7 and very busy, with uptimes in years and years, 5 to 10 years is not uncommon.Jul 04 05:19
oiaohmBut it don't always work that way.Jul 04 05:19
oiaohmSooner or latter you will have the bad luck of a bad batch of stuff.Jul 04 05:19
oiaohmThinking it was only 40 odd parts out of about 100 000 parts.Jul 04 05:21
oiaohmIts not bad odds.Jul 04 05:21
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oiaohmOS developing resitance to hardware issues means less risk of a bad batch causing a problem.  So more you can bet on the 5 to 10 or more.Jul 04 05:25
TinhatGuythats atrocious odds, at those odds, every CPU chip would failJul 04 05:25
oiaohmHad that about 12 years back.Jul 04 05:25
oiaohmNot exactly fail.Jul 04 05:25
oiaohmNot do maths right.  Leading to stack of processing having to be redone.Jul 04 05:25
oiaohmLot of things don't work right and people don't notice either.Jul 04 05:29
oiaohmNote about 100 000 parts was a single order.Jul 04 05:32
oiaohmBetween power supplies and everything else only having 40 things play up with shipping and other things in mess it went quite well.Jul 04 05:32
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wizzwaaaJul 04 06:16
wizzso quietJul 04 06:16
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LnsblarpJul 04 06:21
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oiaohm?Jul 04 06:29
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twitter1Asus dumps GNU/Linux 04 07:05
twitter1BS article.  Roy has covered M$'s attack on this one.Jul 04 07:06
twitter1but the news is the same.Jul 04 07:07
neighborleeouchJul 04 07:12
oiaohmThe game is not over.Jul 04 07:17
oiaohmAsus started something.Jul 04 07:18
TinhatGuywhat was his comment, he said somthing like " I would love to ship with Linux, but we have to sell our computers".Jul 04 07:19
TinhatGuy*SellJul 04 07:20
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neighborleeit would be nice to know why users preferred XPJul 04 07:22
neighborleeI can guess, but--Jul 04 07:23
TinhatGuyyou would be right as well im sure.Jul 04 07:24
ziggyfishit's not that they preferred XP it's that they had no other choiceJul 04 07:25
neighborleethat isn't what article ssaidJul 04 07:26
neighborleesaidJul 04 07:26
ziggyfishneighborlee, what article?Jul 04 07:26
neighborleeasusJul 04 07:26
ziggyfishonly just joined, URL = ?Jul 04 07:26
neighborleeoh -Jul 04 07:27
neighborleeAsus dumps GNU/Linux 04 07:27
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twitter1Search BN for Xandros and Asus to see what M$ did to both.Jul 04 07:44
twitter1Bing burns down the house, 04 07:45
twitter1site does not load for me.Jul 04 07:45
neighborleeeek gad ;0--Jul 04 07:46
neighborleeoh the irony ;0Jul 04 07:46
twitter1Another page does load, says AdHost was also knocked out.  I wonder if this is why many M$ centric web sites have been very slow to load.Jul 04 07:49
twitter1garbage hangs on ad serving java script?Jul 04 07:49
twitter1 04 07:50
twitter1no fancy weather maps, TV weather guys dropped back to pen and paper drawings.Jul 04 07:50
twitter1should have simply projected on a wall.Jul 04 07:51
neighborleeLOLJul 04 07:56
twitter1Nifty gadgets on the way. 04 07:56
neighborleeclassic...thats just too good ;)Jul 04 07:56
neighborleegadgets ?Jul 04 07:57
twitter1ah, wrong link.Jul 04 07:57
twitter1Crunchpad articleJul 04 07:58
twitter1 04 07:58
twitter1basically, the laptop from 2001 a Space OdysseyJul 04 07:59
twitter1if you get M$ out of the way, these things are easy to do and work wellJul 04 08:00
twitter1kind of like GPS receivers - basically GNU/Linux PDAs with maps in them.Jul 04 08:00
twitter1M$ managed to retard these kinds of applications for 10 years.Jul 04 08:01
neighborleeI love this kind of stuffJul 04 08:01
neighborleeto heck with papers....the future is news on a roll in your pocket ;)Jul 04 08:01
twitter1I remember people telling me that Palm PDAs could do all of this.Jul 04 08:01
neighborleelike those new devices coming out soon I read about last year'ish in scientific magazineJul 04 08:01
twitter1Zaurus basically did it back in 2001 or so.Jul 04 08:01
twitter1Now everyone has got these ARM devices.  There should be a flood of them, MIPS and other stuff soon enough.Jul 04 08:02
twitter1Ick, an InformationWeek article was so toxic it blew up NetSurf.Jul 04 08:03
neighborlee < this might be what I was thinking aboutJul 04 08:07
neighborleeor at least simiklarJul 04 08:07
neighborleesimilarJul 04 08:07
twitter1nifty ideaJul 04 08:09
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trmancoschestowitz, was right about redditJul 04 09:24
trmancohave a look at thisJul 04 09:24
trmanco 04 09:24
trmancoup votes12Jul 04 09:24
trmancodown votes12Jul 04 09:24
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Omar871HiJul 04 10:20
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trmancohello Omar871Jul 04 10:57
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-BNc/#boycottnovell-[trmanco] [] Chromium gets native GTK theme: Chromium, also known as Google Chrome,  is under heav.. 04 11:48
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[davidgerard] Sam gets door-to-door religious evangelists a beauty: 04 11:48
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wallclimberMcAfee false-positive glitch fells PCs worldwide - 04 15:14
wallclimberI sure don't miss having to deal with crappy anti-virus programs...Jul 04 15:15
wallclimberbut I've never used Mcafee anywayJul 04 15:16
Eruaransuddenly everyone wants ubuntuJul 04 15:16
EruaranI got people coming in every week nowJul 04 15:17
Eruaran"can i haz ubuntu"Jul 04 15:17
wallclimberI run Ubuntu, but I'm looking for alternativesJul 04 15:17
EruaranIts impressiveJul 04 15:17
Eruaranpeople dont seem really phased by the Win7 hypeJul 04 15:17
wallclimberI had a talk with my son last week, he loves his games, he says the gaming forums are pushing Win7 like crazyJul 04 15:18
EruaranValve are going to release Steam for linuxJul 04 15:19
wallclimbergamers seem as resistant to change thoughJul 04 15:19
Eruarandepends on what kind of gamerJul 04 15:20
wallclimbermy son runs ubuntu on his work laptop, but his "big dog" gaming system runs WindowsJul 04 15:20
Eruaranonly a matter of timeJul 04 15:20
EruaranI remember a computer once that people considered mainly for gamingJul 04 15:20
wallclimberwhat was it?Jul 04 15:21
Eruaranit did other things of courseJul 04 15:21
Eruaranbut eventually being known only for gaming becomes a noose around your neckJul 04 15:21
EruaranAmigaJul 04 15:21
Eruarandifference betweeen the amiga and windows thoughJul 04 15:22
Eruaranthe amiga was actually goodJul 04 15:22
wallclimberahh, i see.  what happened to amiga?Jul 04 15:22
Eruaranit basically fell into a rutJul 04 15:22
Eruaraneven though it was the most exciting computing hardware of its timeJul 04 15:23
wallclimberI had a friend that died a couple of years ago, he owned a computer store in the 80s and early 90sJul 04 15:23
wallclimberhe sold amigasJul 04 15:23
EruaranyesJul 04 15:23
Eruaranthe Amiga was big onceJul 04 15:23
wallclimberhe said the company itself was at fault for losing outJul 04 15:23
EruaranyesJul 04 15:23
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EruaranBut the Amiga was ahead of its timeJul 04 15:24
EruaranI'm not sure any company would have really capitalized on it the way they should haveJul 04 15:24
EruaranIt was doing multimedia long before most people knew what that meantJul 04 15:24
EruaranDid you know Apple could have bought the Amiga ?Jul 04 15:25
EruaranSteve Jobs turned it downJul 04 15:25
wallclimberback to ubuntu, i've been asked to help a couple of friends to install ubuntu on their computers, one is a laptopJul 04 15:25
wallclimberthe other'n is a desktop.  I usually let people tryJul 04 15:25
EruaranMost of the time its excellentJul 04 15:26
wallclimberseveral live cds and let them choose what they wantJul 04 15:26
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wallclimberYes, my friend told me that amiga was ahead of its time with multi-mediaJul 04 15:26
EruaranyepJul 04 15:27
Eruaranby about a decadeJul 04 15:27
wallclimbermy worry with showing people ubuntu now, is that i know, eventually, they will be visiting the support forumsJul 04 15:27
EruaranI usually install xchat-gnomeJul 04 15:28
Eruaranand put a link on the top of their desktopJul 04 15:28
Eruaranif they need help they just click on itJul 04 15:28
Eruaranand find themselves in #ubuntuJul 04 15:28
wallclimbernot just ubuntu's forums, i generally show people how to search google and suchJul 04 15:29
EruaranyesJul 04 15:29
EruaranI find if you show people how to get help, they'll be okJul 04 15:29
wallclimberi'm uneasy, lately with the direction ubuntu is goingJul 04 15:29
Eruaranwith mono ?Jul 04 15:29
wallclimberthere is much more hostility latelyJul 04 15:29
EruaranyesJul 04 15:29
EruaranWhile at the same time other distro's are not following that pathJul 04 15:29
wallclimberi just don't know how to explain it to new usersJul 04 15:30
Eruaranmono concerns ?Jul 04 15:30
wallclimberyes, mono concerns - but maybe it's best to just wait it all outJul 04 15:31
EruaranAt the moment were still offering Ubuntu for noobsJul 04 15:31
wallclimberit will probably get sorted out eventuallyJul 04 15:31
Eruaranfor the time being...Jul 04 15:31
EruaranmaybeJul 04 15:31
wallclimberi hope so.Jul 04 15:31
EruaranUbuntu is popular, and has brand name traction nowJul 04 15:31
EruaranThis is more reason why Microsoft will be looking to undermine UbuntuJul 04 15:32
wallclimberit seems sad to see something like that happenJul 04 15:32
EruaranyesJul 04 15:32
Eruaranits dumbJul 04 15:32
Eruaranjust when you've got it goodJul 04 15:32
wallclimberjust as ubuntu begins to grow in popularityJul 04 15:32
Eruaranyou go stick your head in the lions jawsJul 04 15:32
wallclimberi've often wondered how and when things would happen to ubuntu, it seemedJul 04 15:33
EruaranI've actually had people say to meJul 04 15:33
Eruaran"i don't like linux... I like ubuntu"Jul 04 15:33
wallclimberinevitable that something wouldJul 04 15:33
wallclimberlol, yes, I've had people say that tooJul 04 15:33
wallclimberi've wondered if maybe canonical is just letting things play out, for nowJul 04 15:34
EruaranI'd like to think thatJul 04 15:35
wallclimberi can't believe they'd put it all at riskJul 04 15:35
EruaranBut its the hostility and gagging of dissent that bothers meJul 04 15:35
EruaranEven as an OEM I've been told my concerns are "stupid"Jul 04 15:35
EruaranI've said... "I'm the OEM mate"Jul 04 15:35
EruaranOEMJul 04 15:35
EruaranOEM's concerns are stupid...Jul 04 15:36
wallclimberyes, it's not the disagreement that bothers me so much as the tone and hostilityJul 04 15:36
EruaranThe stupidity and arrogance of such a comment over a questionable framework of which the apps that use it you could number on one hand is ridiclousJul 04 15:36
wallclimberit's what indicates to me that there is, surely, a deeper agendaJul 04 15:37
EruaranI told one of these guys to keep it up, we'll all be using KDE 4.x within 12 months, and the mono pushers will be high and dryJul 04 15:37
Eruaranhe scoffedJul 04 15:38
wallclimberi actually think the mono people thrive on the attention and hostilityJul 04 15:38
EruaranI reminded him that 12 months is a long time in free softwareJul 04 15:38
Eruaranhe didnt listenJul 04 15:39
Eruarantheyve tried to push mono on kdeJul 04 15:39
Eruaranbut there's little interest from the kde communityJul 04 15:39
Eruaranonly from Novell employeesJul 04 15:39
wallclimberi hope kde stays out of it all, but it seems whatever gains popularity eventually gets attackedJul 04 15:40
wallclimberit's discouragingJul 04 15:40
EruaranKDE will be fineJul 04 15:41
Eruaranthey've been getting attacked over every new thing they do for ages ;)Jul 04 15:41
wallclimberit's funny, you are a real OEM, and i'm just a little old lady that helps her friends with their computers, believe me, if they treat your concernsJul 04 15:41
EruaranexactlyJul 04 15:41
wallclimberas stupid, you KNOW they aren't going to give mine the time of dayJul 04 15:41
wallclimbereverybody knows grandma's too stupid to be messing with computersJul 04 15:42
EruaranThey don't take the concerns of OEM's seriously... As far as I'm concerned they don't have a future.Jul 04 15:42
wallclimberwhat do you think will happen whenJul 04 15:43
EruaranI don't believe you behave the way they behave unless someone is paying you to aggressively push itJul 04 15:43
wallclimberthe novell ms patent agreement expires?Jul 04 15:43
EruaranRed Hat and Fedora will lead the pushback against monoJul 04 15:43
EruaranEither Canonical will accept this or fall into the arms of Microsoft like Novell didJul 04 15:44
EruaranCanonical resisted Microsoft's patent claims previously... that is a hopeful signJul 04 15:44
wallclimbermaybe canonical is allowing things to heat up because they're willing to take ms on over patentsJul 04 15:44
wallclimber?Jul 04 15:45
wallclimbermaybe they just want to get ms to put up, or shut up?Jul 04 15:45
EruaranBut on a broader scale if the gnome community keeps entertaining this small core group of mono pushers and letting the like scumbags like Miguel de Icaza have what they want then the wider community will swing behind KDEJul 04 15:45
wallclimberi dunno...Jul 04 15:45
EruaranKDE 4.3 is shaping up very nicely indeedJul 04 15:46
wallclimberi guess that's something to keep in mind, gnome isn't ubuntuJul 04 15:46
EruaranyesJul 04 15:46
wallclimberis that correct?Jul 04 15:46
EruaranrightJul 04 15:47
wallclimberso, ubuntu should be okay,Jul 04 15:47
EruaranprobablyJul 04 15:47
wallclimberit's the gnome group that's been infiltrated?Jul 04 15:47
EruaranIf they drop mono in reasonable timeJul 04 15:47
Eruaranmainly yesJul 04 15:47
wallclimberi read about another ubuntu yesterday...let me go find it  brbJul 04 15:48
EruaranI've seen the guys from Novell trying to push for mono apps, bindings or whatever in KDE but the response from KDE folks goes from ambivilent and disinterested to concerned to hostileJul 04 15:48
Eruarantheyre not stupidJul 04 15:49
wallclimberhere is a link, it's called "Lubuntu"Jul 04 15:49
wallclimber 04 15:49
EruaranI think KDE has more of an independant streak, they dont like being dependent on anything that might end up unmaintained, let alone something as questionable as mono... and they have Qt, Java, and a lot of Python folks as well... what do they need mono for ?Jul 04 15:50
wallclimberwhat is LXDE?Jul 04 15:50
Eruaranits another desktop environment :PJul 04 15:50
wallclimberlike gnome and kde, yes?Jul 04 15:51
EruaranyesJul 04 15:51
wallclimberyou mentioned QT, i have read that it uses mono too, is that true?Jul 04 15:51
EruarannoJul 04 15:51
wallclimbergood!Jul 04 15:52
Eruaran:)Jul 04 15:52
EruaranQt is the toolkit used to make KDEJul 04 15:52
EruaranIts LGPLJul 04 15:52
EruaranC++Jul 04 15:53
wallclimberthank you for explaining thatJul 04 15:53
Eruaran:)Jul 04 15:53
wallclimberwell, wish me luck with my new installsJul 04 15:53
Eruarangood luck !Jul 04 15:53
wallclimberi have four live cds for my friends to try outJul 04 15:54
wallclimberxubuntu, pclinuxos, mandriva, and puppy (sometimes that little puppy just works!)Jul 04 15:54
wallclimberi think mandriva may be too much for these older machines to handle, but we'll seeJul 04 15:55
EruaranI'm using Kubuntu at the momentJul 04 15:55
Eruaranhow old are they ?Jul 04 15:55
wallclimberi've only tried kubuntu a couple of time (not recently though)Jul 04 15:55
wallclimberi won't really know the age and hardware till they get here.  asking people about their hardware is a lost cause, soJul 04 15:56
EruaranI just ask people how old their computer isJul 04 15:57
wallclimberi generally just wait and see and try to prepare for anythingJul 04 15:57
wallclimberhowever, i'd guess they are between 2 and 4 years oldJul 04 15:57
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Eruaranah they'll be fineJul 04 15:57
Eruaranwith any distroJul 04 15:57
wallclimberit's funny, people always seem so impressed by Live cdsJul 04 15:58
EruaranyesJul 04 15:58
wallclimberit's like magic to themJul 04 15:58
EruaranI installed Avast! on a system and scanned someone's USB key for virusesJul 04 15:59
EruaranThey were amazedJul 04 15:59
EruaranIt had a virus on it that autoran and infected every Windows system it touchedJul 04 16:00
EruaranThey were like, "it wont get the virus ?"Jul 04 16:00
EruaranI was like, "no.. its safe use, and we'll delete the virus"Jul 04 16:00
Eruaranpeople are  amazed when you can show them the virus file, point to it and simply delete itJul 04 16:02
wallclimberyes, windows users have been conditioned to believe that computers are all alike, and all get viruses and malwareJul 04 16:02
Omar871wallclimber: LOL. So true. :)Jul 04 16:03
wallclimberThis is one of the reasons I KNOW the statistics Microsoft likes to throw aroundJul 04 16:05
wallclimberlike "Windows has 99% of the world's computers" and suchJul 04 16:05
wallclimbercan not be true.  Five years ago I knew very few people that didn't run Windows, this yearJul 04 16:06
EruaranWe have a growing customer base that no longer uses WindowsJul 04 16:07
wallclimberthe Windows users have become the minority (of course, this may only be true in my own little universe)Jul 04 16:07
wallclimberI'm always glad to hear that others are seeing the same trendJul 04 16:07
EruaranLets put it this wayJul 04 16:07
EruaranWhere I work, Windows XP users still makes up the bulk of our customersJul 04 16:08
Eruaranbut the second biggest group of users nowJul 04 16:08
EruaranAre Ubuntu usersJul 04 16:08
EruaranWe have less customers using VistaJul 04 16:08
EruaranAnd once in a while someone asks us to service their MacJul 04 16:08
wallclimberhave you had many problems with supporting ubuntu users?Jul 04 16:09
EruarannoJul 04 16:09
Eruaranthey are generally easier to support than Windows usersJul 04 16:09
wallclimberi've been astounded at how well most people handle getting used to UbuntuJul 04 16:09
Eruaranvery few people screw up their ubuntu systemsJul 04 16:09
wallclimberthere is one person in particular that i had many sleepless nights worrying aboutJul 04 16:10
EruaranAnd Ubuntu just does these little things that impresses the hell out of peopleJul 04 16:10
wallclimberi almost refused to set up an ubuntu machine for themJul 04 16:10
wallclimberbecause they wore me out with windows problems over the yearsJul 04 16:11
wallclimberlol, this particular person has handled ubuntu very wellJul 04 16:11
Eruaran:)Jul 04 16:11
wallclimberi am very surprised, and very relievedJul 04 16:12
EruaranI installed Ubuntu for a 76 year old gentlemanJul 04 16:12
EruaranHe was frustrated after about 12 months with Vista on his notebookJul 04 16:12
EruaranIt always had problemsJul 04 16:12
wallclimberthe worst things i've had to deal with, so far, has been getting some older machines workingJul 04 16:12
EruaranAnd wasnt reliableJul 04 16:12
EruaranThis was a HP notebookJul 04 16:13
EruaranThere was a recall on the batteryJul 04 16:13
EruaranWe didn't know about thatJul 04 16:13
EruaranHe knew the battery charge wasnt lasting longJul 04 16:13
wallclimberi've only had one run-in with  vista - i helped a neighbor with their new vista laptop that would not wake up after suspendingJul 04 16:14
EruaranHe found out about the recall on the battery, so he'd been calling HP to see about getting another batteryJul 04 16:14
EruaranThe first time Ubuntu booted after installing, it popped up with a dialogue saying there was a problem with the battery, its either old or broken.Jul 04 16:14
EruaranWe called him up to tell himJul 04 16:14
EruaranAnd of course he was amazedJul 04 16:15
wallclimberdid HP help?  the vista laptop i helped with was HP tooJul 04 16:15
Eruarannot yetJul 04 16:15
Eruarangetting anything out of HP is like getting blood from a stoneJul 04 16:15
wallclimberit's been at least a year ago, so i don't remember exactly, but it seemed to me that i found a patch on the HP website that fixed the problemJul 04 16:16
wallclimberfor my neighborJul 04 16:16
Eruaranmust be something differentJul 04 16:16
wallclimberi have to admit their vista laptop was prettyJul 04 16:17
Eruaranwith this one apparrently the battery is one of a bad batchJul 04 16:17
wallclimberdo you think hp will replace the battery?Jul 04 16:17
EruaraneventuallyJul 04 16:17
Eruaranafter lots of whingingJul 04 16:18
Eruarana guy at work told me a funny storyJul 04 16:19
wallclimberi've read that vista is a battery-drainerJul 04 16:19
Eruaranis it everJul 04 16:19
EruaranBenQ A53 notebooksJul 04 16:20
EruaranVista kills their battery and power supplyJul 04 16:20
EruaranEvery BenQ A53 with Windows XP or a GNU/Linux distro has no problemsJul 04 16:20
EruaranBut EVERY one we've sold with Vista (which is not many admittedly) has had to have battery and/or power supply replaced within 6 monthsJul 04 16:21
wallclimberwhat does vista do that kills power supplies?Jul 04 16:22
EruaranIt just rapes it constantlyJul 04 16:22
wallclimberoverworking it?Jul 04 16:22
EruaranyesJul 04 16:22
Eruaranhard drive light on most of the timeJul 04 16:23
Eruaranit doesnt run well on those notebooks anywayJul 04 16:23
Eruaranbut anyone who decided to keep Vista on it has paid the priceJul 04 16:23
wallclimberhow well do you think Windows 7 will run on netbooks?Jul 04 16:24
Eruarannot veryJul 04 16:24
EruaranI don't belive the hypeJul 04 16:24
EruaranAnd they'll be pushing Windows 7 "Starter Edition" on themJul 04 16:25
EruaranIts a crippled OSJul 04 16:25
wallclimberi thought they had decided to drop the starter limitsJul 04 16:25
Eruaranthey dropped the 3 app limitJul 04 16:25
Eruaranbut thats allJul 04 16:26
Eruaranyou still cant even change the wallpaperJul 04 16:26
Eruaranno dvd supportJul 04 16:26
Eruaranno multimedia streaming over your home networkJul 04 16:26
Eruaranno domain supportJul 04 16:26
wallclimberwow, how on Earth are they going to market that?Jul 04 16:27
wallclimberi guess they'll just show how pretty it looks?Jul 04 16:27
EruaranI think they think people will opt to upgrade and shell out the extra costJul 04 16:27
Eruaranits not prettyJul 04 16:27
EruaranStarter Edition does not have AeroJul 04 16:27
wallclimberit's funny, it does seem like people are very proud when they can tell people theyJul 04 16:28
Eruaranso instead of the glassy taskbar panel, you get a grey bland looking thingJul 04 16:28
wallclimberhave the latest "pro" or "Ultimate" version of windowsJul 04 16:28
EruaranKDE will soon have a netbook desktop in its desktop settings arsenalJul 04 16:29
Eruarandesktop, folderview, blackboard, netbook...Jul 04 16:29
wallclimberi've never seen windows 7, but i've heard it looks a lot like kdeJul 04 16:30
EruaranyesJul 04 16:30
Eruaranthe first alpha I saw was a blatant rip offJul 04 16:30
Eruaranthey didn't even bother to change the stylingJul 04 16:30
wallclimberin many ways, microsoft seems like a very sad companyJul 04 16:31
Eruaranso it was as obvious as their rip off of Kayak for Bing travel...Jul 04 16:31
EruaranEven the wallpaper was a rip of off one from Vladstudio from the previous yearJul 04 16:31
Eruaranjust patheticJul 04 16:32
wallclimberi read somewhere that bing travel was down due to a power outageJul 04 16:32
Eruaranthey've got billions of dollars in their R&D budget, and it seems all they can do is copy Apple, or KDE, or Kayak or GoogleJul 04 16:32
wallclimberin seattle?  I should probably go find it before talking about it and getting it wrongJul 04 16:32
Eruarani heard something along those linesJul 04 16:33
wallclimberit just seems like everything they do lately seems desperate and ineptJul 04 16:33
Eruarannot everythingJul 04 16:33
Eruarantheyre very good at monopolizing the marketJul 04 16:34
wallclimberbut sooo hostile to everyoneJul 04 16:34
Eruaranthey're very good at corrupting state education bodiesJul 04 16:34
Eruaranand strangling distribution channelsJul 04 16:34
wallclimberthey also seem very good at making enemiesJul 04 16:35
EruaranyesJul 04 16:35
wallclimberall of those things you mentioned still indicate desperation to meJul 04 16:35
wallclimberthey seem very afraid of growing old...Jul 04 16:36
wallclimberand pointless (can we send them to the nursing home?)Jul 04 16:36
EruaranLinux is everywhere... Apple is everywhere... Google is everywhereJul 04 16:36
EruaranSometimes I tell a customer who thinks nobody uses linuxJul 04 16:37
wallclimberit's been amazing to see how many ways ms has found to attack and annoy googleJul 04 16:37
Eruaran"Do you use Google ?"Jul 04 16:37
EruaranYou use LinuxJul 04 16:37
Eruaran"see that Netgear router over there ?"Jul 04 16:37
EruaranIt runs Linux.Jul 04 16:37
wallclimberballmer was apparently very serious about his, long ago, chair-tossing threats against googleJul 04 16:37
EruaranSee that NAS device ?Jul 04 16:37
EruaranIt runs LinuxJul 04 16:37
EruaranyesJul 04 16:38
EruaranThe problem isJul 04 16:38
EruaranTheir attitude has not changedJul 04 16:38
EruaranThey have not learnedJul 04 16:38
EruaranThey are as arrogant as everJul 04 16:38
EruaranAs evidenced recentlyJul 04 16:38
EruaranWhen the price of Vista with Windows 7 discount certificates was deliberately inflatedJul 04 16:39
EruaranOEM Vista versions that come with a new PC being marketed with the Windows 7 discount formJul 04 16:39
Eruaranthe customer is connedJul 04 16:39
EruaranThere is no discount... they just paid more for Vista in the first place than beforeJul 04 16:40
EruaranThey're trying to gouge peopleJul 04 16:40
wallclimberit amazes me how many times people are willing to pay for a windows license  - I was reading glyn moodyJul 04 16:41
EruaranTheir software is expensive and inferiorJul 04 16:41
wallclimber 04 16:41
wallclimberi read through the comments on that page, and thought to myself thatJul 04 16:41
wallclimberit's likely going to be a pointless meeting for Glyn.  It won't be theJul 04 16:42
wallclimbermeeting that will make the difference, it will be the quiet phone call from an MS rep that willJul 04 16:42
wallclimbercause the city to continue using WindowsJul 04 16:43
wallclimberi wonder if this is just Manchester's way of getting Microsoft to give them a better deal than last timeJul 04 16:43
EruaranyesJul 04 16:44
wallclimber(sigh)  seems sad.  Glyn seems genuinely hoping to make a differenceJul 04 16:44
EruaranI have learned not to bother with anyone who is not already expressng an interest in genuine changeJul 04 16:45
wallclimberi guess it never hurts to keep trying, chipping away at the monopoly one small chip at a timeJul 04 16:45
EruaranIf someone wants Windows, thats what they get. If someone expresses an interest in Ubuntu or Linux in general, we encourage them to go for it.Jul 04 16:46
EruaranYou just learn to discern who wants to be lead to water and who wont drink even if you point to the lake.Jul 04 16:47
EruaranBut the number of people interested primarily in Ubuntu now has surprised even me.Jul 04 16:48
wallclimberYes, it's very true.  It's a tribute to word of mouth, i think...or maybeJul 04 16:49
wallclimbermicrosoft has been so rotten lately that people are desperately looking for alternativesJul 04 16:50
EruaranyesJul 04 16:50
wallclimberEruaran, thank you so much for chatting with me this morning.Jul 04 16:51
EruaranI think the dismal quality of their software and Microsoft's increasingly belligerent behaviour is turning people elsewhereJul 04 16:51
Eruaranno problem :PJul 04 16:51
wallclimberalso, how nice it's been to not have any trolls roaming throughJul 04 16:51
EruaranyesJul 04 16:52
wallclimberyou have a great weekend!Jul 04 16:52
wallclimber:)Jul 04 16:52
Eruaranyou to :)Jul 04 16:52
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-BNc/#boycottnovell-[trmanco] listening to "Can't Get Over - Kasino" ♫ 04 17:08
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[trmanco] listening to "Stay Tonight - Kasino" ♫ 04 17:13
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twitter1hmmm, the conversation on that reddit article is full of shills.  they heap more abuse on RMS, it's so M$ to do that.  I was not happy to read the SV article though, it was almost as mean spirited as the FU original.Jul 04 17:27
twitter1Remembering the whole M$ "Apple Switcher" mess, where they created fake blogs with stock photos, I'm not sure the "intern" is a real person.Jul 04 17:31
twitter1If they are, I feel bad for them.Jul 04 17:32
twitter1M$ will probably fire them.Jul 04 17:32
twitter1The guy's an idiot and should be ignored.  Sam's article abused him for petty things like grammar and spelling along with the more appropriate criticism of ignorance and malice.Jul 04 17:34
twitter1Sam got one thing right, though, the intern is representative of the kind of abuse the mono and M$ people dish out all the time.Jul 04 17:35
twitter1Jo Shields and others are abusive.Jul 04 17:36
twitter1Miguel, from what I've seen is not like that, but the mono camp in general is just ugly.Jul 04 17:37
twitter1Free software, hijacked by M$.Jul 04 17:38
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[davidgerard] yet again I get my news from twitter. sarah palin's resignation speech is ... uh.Jul 04 17:38
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-BNc/#boycottnovell-[trmanco] ♺ @daltux: 2º o prof, o ZipMail, que era sinônimo de email no Brasil. Migraram a estrutura de Solaris para Redmond, então ficou uma carroça.Jul 04 18:08
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[davidgerard] Younger teen tidied lounge. Her intarweb is back on. Older teen shocked. Toddler of course poured a big puddle of juice onto the couch.Jul 04 18:13
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[davidgerard] gave up and fixed laptop resolution with an xorg.conf. xorg@ gave advice on how a similar driver was patched though. could be win.Jul 04 18:13
cobra-the-jokerhey there every oneJul 04 18:17
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twitter1irony.  Slashdot user twitter hates push media.Jul 04 18:43
twitter1this looks like king hell spyware 04 18:44
twitter1"skyhook" even the name is evilJul 04 18:44
twitter1what a big hit.  GPS in your phone that phones home via wifi!  neat idea, gang, collect everyone's location and report it.Jul 04 18:45
twitter1no thanks.Jul 04 18:45
twitter1non free software is so rapaciousJul 04 18:47
twitter1GPS + bluetooth or wifi raises similar concerns.Jul 04 18:47
twitter1Malls have already used bluetooth in phones to track customersJul 04 18:48
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[davidgerard] NotN: Sarah Palin gives maverickilicious resignation speech 04 18:48
cobra-the-jokertwitter1 , is this really true ...about the malls ?Jul 04 18:51
twitter1yes, it's trueJul 04 18:51
twitter1I can dig up links if you want me toJul 04 18:51
cobra-the-jokertoo badJul 04 18:51
cobra-the-jokerluckily i dont have BlueTooth :DJul 04 18:52
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[trmanco] Bugatti Veyron 16.4 Grand Sport: 04 18:53
twitter1here's a 2003 announcement of "services" offered. 04 18:53
cobra-the-jokermmm...interestingJul 04 18:54
twitter1you can be tracked by your phone with or without bluetooth.  speculation here 04 18:54
twitter1a study was later released about the movements of people in an unnamed European city.Jul 04 18:55
twitter1there were also a few stories about malls using the bluetooth trackingJul 04 18:56
cobra-the-jokerdirty work ....Jul 04 18:57
twitter1people who implement these things make excuses, "everyone knows this happens" , "no one really cares" and so on and so forthJul 04 18:57
cobra-the-jokeryeahJul 04 18:58
twitter1they do not understand the repressive possibilities and how a society without dissidents is bad for everyone.Jul 04 18:58
cobra-the-jokeri would agree if they really told me "we are tracking you "or somethingJul 04 18:59
twitter1you phone company might already do thatJul 04 18:59
twitter1"tracking for billing purpose" clause or some other lieJul 04 18:59
twitter1location tracking gives the rich and powerful that much more powerJul 04 19:00
twitter1it also denies dissidents the use of the suspect techJul 04 19:01
twitter1RMS, for example, does not have a cell phone.Jul 04 19:01
cobra-the-jokermmmJul 04 19:01
twitter1he also travels by busJul 04 19:01
cobra-the-jokerRMS ??Jul 04 19:02
cobra-the-jokerpardon me ...what is RMSJul 04 19:02
twitter1Richard StallmanJul 04 19:02
cobra-the-jokermmmmJul 04 19:02
twitter1He's definitely someone who's displeased the rich and powerful by helping everyone else.Jul 04 19:03
cobra-the-jokeri like the concept of openSource very muchJul 04 19:04
macabe_Which is the concept they're wishing/working to destroy-The meaning of Open Source according to msJul 04 19:06
twitter1The Free Software movement had things right all along.Jul 04 19:07
cobra-the-jokeryes ....i dont get ppl who hate that ...reallyJul 04 19:07
macabe_IMO I think its control freaknessJul 04 19:08
twitter1 04 19:08
twitter1Eben Moglen said it well.Jul 04 19:09
twitter1O'Reilly misses a key ingredient in his analysis - Network Freedom.Jul 04 19:15
twitter1With network freedom, software freedom flourishes and Facebook and other services become the "thermal noise" Molgen talks about.Jul 04 19:16
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macabe_This pertains to net neutrality?Jul 04 19:16
twitter1If Facebook offers anything useful, it will be quickly duplicated in free software that actually protects user privacy.Jul 04 19:16
twitter1Network freedom is more than network neutrality.Jul 04 19:17
cobra-the-jokerFaceBook is free .....but i dont think it protects user privacy :DJul 04 19:17
twitter1network freedom is the freedom to use the bandwith you pay for for any purpose.Jul 04 19:17
twitter1Network neutrality is being turned into some kind of "right to chose your masters" nonsense.Jul 04 19:18
twitter1There is little network freedom in the US.Jul 04 19:18
macabe_Know that from experience.Jul 04 19:19
twitter1Most people are stuck with a single network provider that blocks ports and explicitly bans services.Jul 04 19:19
twitter1The @Home network was free.Jul 04 19:19
twitter1They gave people a fixed IP address and let them do whatever they wanted.  It worked very well.Jul 04 19:20
macabe_What happened?Jul 04 19:20
twitter1Cable and telco companies took over.Jul 04 19:21
twitter1DSL companies were eliminated in the late 90sJul 04 19:21
twitter1All competition to the usual monopoly suspects was crushed and AAT reformed itself.Jul 04 19:21
twitter1reformed as in reassembled, not cleaned upJul 04 19:22
twitter1Network freedom is very important for software freedom.Jul 04 19:22
twitter1People will never have software freedom if free software users are excluded from vital services.Jul 04 19:23
twitter1Broadcasters and telco will use their position to exclude as much as they can.Jul 04 19:24
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cobra-the-jokermmm ...i think a little blocking is someHow usefullJul 04 19:27
cobra-the-jokeru see our country here is looking forward to Block all the sex sites ^-^Jul 04 19:27
cobra-the-jokerbut actually there were ppl arguing with that ...that its agains the network freedom thingJul 04 19:27
cobra-the-jokerbut actually Blocking these sites is helpfull ( and healthy ) for every oneJul 04 19:28
cobra-the-jokerat least IMOJul 04 19:28
twitter1blocking happens best at the keyboardJul 04 19:33
twitter1you decide what you want, not othersJul 04 19:33
trmanco 04 19:35
cobra-the-jokeri know the fact that noBody can prevent you from what you want to do ( whats in your mind is still in your mind)Jul 04 19:35
cobra-the-jokerbut a little border will have some order i thinkJul 04 19:35
twitter1If you think prostitution, and sex for sale are unhealthy, you need to outlaw prostitution.  That takes care of porn for you, or at least drives it under ground.Jul 04 19:35
twitter1Many people believe that prostitution should be legal because people should be able to offer services regardless of how degrading and humiliating those services are.  I think prostitution should be outlawed because it is wrong to demand such services and for people to be forced by economic circumstances to offer them.Jul 04 19:38
cobra-the-jokeryeah ...i agreeJul 04 19:39
twitter1Sexual harassment laws, for example, go out the window if prostitution is legal and the company puts a "sexual favors" clause in your contract.Jul 04 19:39
twitter1ickJul 04 19:39
twitter1Those things have nothing to do with publishing.Jul 04 19:40
cobra-the-jokerthey will wait till they see the real consequences of itJul 04 19:40
cobra-the-jokerreally :D?Jul 04 19:41
twitter1trmanco, I'm not sure I'd call Jo Shields "brilliant"Jul 04 19:41
trmancotwitter, in what aspect?Jul 04 19:41
trmancotwitter1,Jul 04 19:41
twitter1well, he's loud, forceful, rude, dishonest (lies by distraction and dismissal) and many other things, clever but not in a useful way.Jul 04 19:43
trmancotwitter1, do you know who Jason is?Jul 04 19:43
twitter1I don't know Jason.Jul 04 19:43
trmancoyeah, I agree with your viewJul 04 19:43
twitter1I've read a few Jo Shields essays.  They are more annoying than convincing.Jul 04 19:43
trmanco:-)Jul 04 19:45
twitter1"Don't Bullshit Me, Son" LOLJul 04 19:45
twitter1well done, thanks.Jul 04 19:45
trmancohahaJul 04 19:47
trmancohave you seen an award he gave?Jul 04 19:47
twitter1A Jo Shields award?  No, I've never seen that.Jul 04 19:48
trmancooh, that is from the "award"Jul 04 19:48
trmanco 04 19:48
twitter1I'm unable to read the M$ promise, 04 19:49
trmanco"We are sorry, the page you requested cannot be found.Jul 04 19:50
trmancoSee below for search results close to your request, or try a new search."Jul 04 19:50
trmancowhat a nice way to boost Bings trafficJul 04 19:50
trmancooh waitJul 04 19:50
trmancoit make an auto-search for youJul 04 19:50
trmancohow about thatJul 04 19:50
trmancomakesJul 04 19:51
twitter1I don't even get get a 404 for it.Jul 04 19:51
twitter1 simply hangsJul 04 19:51
twitter1not even wget is servedJul 04 19:51
twitter1"HTTP request sent, awaiting response..."Jul 04 19:52
trmancooh that pageJul 04 19:52
trmancoI can open itJul 04 19:52
twitter1interestingJul 04 19:53
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[trmanco] LOL -> Don't BS me son!Jul 04 19:53
twitter1 MSPX is a custom extension Microsoft uses for their contentJul 04 19:54
twitter1presentation framework:Jul 04 19:54
twitter1 04 19:54
twitter1"The presentation framework includes a custom Web handler built inJul 04 19:54
twitter1ASP.NET. Pages that use the presentation framework have the .mspxJul 04 19:54
twitter1filename extension, which is registered in Microsoft InternetJul 04 19:54
twitter1Information Services (IIS) on the Web servers. When one of theJul 04 19:54 Web servers receives a request for an .mspx page, thisJul 04 19:54
twitter1custom Web handler intercepts that call and passes it to the frameworkJul 04 19:54
twitter1for processing."Jul 04 19:54
twitter1I think their server is downJul 04 19:54
trmancoit works :|Jul 04 19:55
trmancomaybe DNS problems?Jul 04 19:55
twitter1I don't think so.Jul 04 19:55
trmancoI can print the page or save it, if you want to see itJul 04 19:56
twitter1wget gets proper resolution, it's still hung waiting for a request.Jul 04 19:56
twitter1don't bother.  M$ promises are not worth much.  It's funny that M$ won't even grant their usual "protection" to mono, that's all that counts here.Jul 04 19:57
twitter1"Connecting to||:80... connected"Jul 04 19:58
twitter1I gave up on the second passJul 04 19:58
twitter1If they don't want to serve things in a standard way, I don't want to read it.Jul 04 19:59
trmanco:-)Jul 04 20:02
trmancohttp:// 04 20:02
trmancohow about like thatJul 04 20:03
twitter1even there, something is toxic to Konqueror.  It works with netsurf.Jul 04 20:07
twitter1what an ugly and stupid document, how can people stand to use even the "covered" items?Jul 04 20:10
twitter1Software patents must be eliminated to free people of nonsense like that.Jul 04 20:11
twitter1bblJul 04 20:11
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trmanco:>Jul 04 20:16
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seller_liargood articlesJul 04 20:27
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macabe_ PatentSludge, another troll.Jul 04 20:55
trmancohe also commented on Sam's postJul 04 20:59
trmanco 04 21:00
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macabe_Don't know what the agenda is: There are other projects investigating patents (peer-to-patent, etc.)Jul 04 21:06
macabe_Person could've joined those projects.Jul 04 21:07
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[davidgerard] RT @mkapor: Transcendental Meditation trying to silence critics. Please help! RT to make outrageous legal threats viral. 04 21:08
macabe_If the person was serious, else it reads like another troll site.Jul 04 21:09
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yuhongFrom <>:Jul 04 21:41
yuhong"It doesn't help that we've had consistent issues with sales numbers being low for the game sales and things like IDC reports showing us "breaking the 1 percent mark" in the marketplace."Jul 04 21:41
yuhong"The Linux game market is larger than the IDC figures would lead you to believe. "Jul 04 21:46
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[davidgerard] laptop at full resolution, now using netbook remix window manager. lighter-weight than full GNOME but very nice.Jul 04 21:53
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[davidgerard] @schestowitz wow, you're attracting the trolls with the last few posts. well done!Jul 04 21:58
twitter1Statue of Liberty open for first time since 9/11. 04 21:58
twitter1I don't like Rober Millan's dismissal of the M$ threat.  "  I do agree that there’s a serious danger, but I don’t think Microsoft would ever bring all .NET implementations underground.  If you think that, my opinion is you’re underestimating them. Microsoft is smarter than that."Jul 04 22:10
twitter1He might as well have said, "I recommend we ignore this serious threat."Jul 04 22:11
twitter1Someone who says M$ will ignore community groups is ignorant of M$ astroturfing history.Jul 04 22:12
twitter1It is fair to say that M$ is more a marketing, PR and astroturf group than they are a software company.Jul 04 22:13
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twitterwowch, gspca just barfed my kernel.  works with ekiga, blew up under vlc. It's been a while since that happened.Jul 04 23:06
twitterI'm not sure how twitter1 still lingers here.Jul 04 23:06
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twitterthere you goJul 04 23:15
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