IRC: #boycottnovell @ FreeNode: July 5th, 2009

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oiaohmOk do I still have connection/Jul 05 00:23
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_Hicham_Hi oiaohmJul 05 00:35
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_Hicham_no one in here?Jul 05 00:39
yuhongI am here.Jul 05 00:41
_Hicham_are u progressing gcc asm?Jul 05 00:42
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yuhongFrom <>:Jul 05 00:45
yuhong"It doesn't help that we've had consistent issues with sales numbers being low for the game sales and things like IDC reports showing us "breaking the 1 percent mark" in the marketplace."Jul 05 00:46
yuhong"The Linux game market is larger than the IDC figures would lead you to believe. "Jul 05 00:46
yuhongBTW, when do you predict MS will bring all .NET implementations underground, if it does happen?Jul 05 00:49
yuhongYes, I am doing more complicated stuff using gcc asm, such as muldiv.Jul 05 00:50
*amarsh04 hasn't programmed in assembly since doing VAX assembler in the mid 1980sJul 05 00:51
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-BNc/#boycottnovell-[nickballard] Out to see fireworks. It is raining so hard it might not happen.Jul 05 01:23
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twitterI think I've found the root of my recent surfing problems.  edge.sphere.comJul 05 02:04
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twitterWordpress, Washington Post, ZDnet, Newsweek and most of the other sites displayed on are slow for me.Jul 05 02:05 seems to be the only thing that they have in common.Jul 05 02:06
twitterthough it could be too...Jul 05 02:06
twitterI noticed by logging into a host system far away and calling up a browser there.  This eliminated local problems, even OS and browser version problems.Jul 05 02:07
twitterThe foreign system is Solaris using FireFox.Jul 05 02:07
twitterit took minutes to open up a Washington Post story.Jul 05 02:08
twitterThen it hung.Jul 05 02:08
twitterNow let's play, Where's M$?Jul 05 02:09
twitterAh ha, a ZD Net article advising over googleJul 05 02:16
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twitterlinks to 05 02:20
twitterUsed by big media giants ... always suspect.Jul 05 02:21
twitterthey use free software too, ha haJul 05 02:22
twitterThey were just setting up in 2006Jul 05 02:23
twitter 05 02:27
twittermy hunch is that this firm is used by big publishers to tame the internet.  All of those sites get to cull through everyone's blogs first, they can block google and they can promote blogs they like.Jul 05 02:29
twitterthe threat of being sold out like that is one of the reasons I have not done personal blogging on other sites since geocities.  People should run their own servers.Jul 05 02:32
twitterTony was with the company as of March of this year. 05 02:36
twitter->" Specifically, we will syndicate contextually relevant information and search capabilities to publishers, vertical portals, complementary search engines, and weblog hosting companies. Integrating relevant blog content into publisher website properties will result in increased traffic, more ad views, and higher ad revenue."Jul 05 02:38
twitterI wonder if this is how big publishers came to quote the likes of DrinkyPoo, a Slashdot Troll.Jul 05 02:38
twitterWell, that's all from me for now.Jul 05 02:39
twitterI can live without 99% of the publishers works with, so I'm not terribly bothered by the slowdown.Jul 05 02:39
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twitterI don't think Vista 7 will be the Earth crushing event pictured here 05 03:04
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cjschestowitz: srslyJul 05 04:08
cjschestowitz: I've got a politician and a lawyer who might be interested in getting something off the ground.  we'd need funding, though.Jul 05 04:09
Carl_Rover2k12cj: and I am the king of spamJul 05 04:10
cjCarl_Rover2k12: did you like that bit?Jul 05 04:10
cjCarl_Rover2k12: what was the last free software project you contributed to?Jul 05 04:11
Carl_Rover2k12cj: AROS amd WookiechatJul 05 04:11
cjcould I get a link to the diffs?Jul 05 04:11
Carl_Rover2k12cj: also YDLJul 05 04:11
*cj completes the clan handshakeJul 05 04:12
cjso what's the dealio?  what can we do to diffuse this issue?Jul 05 04:12
Carl_Rover2k12cj: everything you need to know is on 05 04:12
Carl_Rover2k12also here: 05 04:12
Carl_Rover2k12cj: thats where all the documentation and nightly builds areJul 05 04:13
cjbrb.  gotta' get a bottle. :)Jul 05 04:14
Carl_Rover2k12schestowitz: I got a real kick out of that M$ software graveyard articleJul 05 04:15
cjCarl_Rover2k12: why do you call it "M$"?Jul 05 04:16
*cj notes that he did the same when he was 16-21Jul 05 04:16
twitterM$ is pronounced "shit" boys.Jul 05 04:17
twitter***twitter ignores obnoxious trolls cj and carl_roverJul 05 04:17
cjooh!  not only troll but obnoxious!Jul 05 04:19
Carl_Rover2k12cj: its easier to state M$ within the context of a short line the MmmicosoftJul 05 04:20
Carl_Rover2k12cj: I didn't know I was offending youJul 05 04:20
cjwhat's Mmmcosoft?  I don't get it.Jul 05 04:20
cjCarl_Rover2k12: not offending me!  was I offending you?Jul 05 04:20
Carl_Rover2k12cj: not at allJul 05 04:20
Carl_Rover2k12and that was typos beforeJul 05 04:21
cjCarl_Rover2k12: btw, what do you think of this? 05 04:21
Carl_Rover2k12there is supposed to be a "n" at the end of the "the" before the word that is missing an "r"Jul 05 04:21
cjah.  I just do 'ms'.  fewer pinkie finger movements :)Jul 05 04:21
Carl_Rover2k12cj: but M$ looks so much cooler and pops out moreJul 05 04:22
cjyes, but it's also pretty sophomoric, isn't it?Jul 05 04:22
Carl_Rover2k12cj: btw, how do you expect from a blog that is just supposed to report articles with the problems of M$ plaguing open source as well as issues within the community itself? Its a blogJul 05 04:23
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Carl_Rover2k12cj: its entertaining while offering articles about what underhanded things are going on in the software industry as well as governmental impacts.Jul 05 04:23
Carl_Rover2k12cj: if you are the author of that article you just linked, all you're doing is like the saying goes, "shooting the messenger"Jul 05 04:25
Carl_Rover2k12seriously articles like that proove that BoycottNovell has created enough clout to leave some folks crossedJul 05 04:26
Carl_Rover2k12its great to have reasonable conversation but cj, from that log you just look like you are baightingJul 05 04:27
Carl_Rover2k12cj: so what is your idea of a website that offers more pro-active critiquing of the software business?Jul 05 04:29
cjCarl_Rover2k12: it is disheartening Mono developersJul 05 04:33
cjCarl_Rover2k12: and insulting the folks who built GNOME, questioning their sincerity, their morals, their goalsJul 05 04:33
SpagCodepeople are more interested in unbiased and accurate rather the pro-active.Jul 05 04:34
Carl_Rover2k12cj: "opinions are like asswholes, everyone has one." You have to realise that there are folks who are only for open source projects if they all work on one cohesive license. If say the operating system and libraries are part of the GPL/GNU it is expected for most of the components to be too.Jul 05 04:35
cjkinda' closed-minded, isn't it?Jul 05 04:36
cjhow about dfsg?Jul 05 04:36
cj 05 04:37
Carl_Rover2k12cj: well it also keeps things relatively simple regarding keeping developers along a relatively same standard and ensuring there is no legal trouble ahead. Here is an example of an intelligent argument on the perspective: 05 04:37
cjever hear of the Open Source Definition?Jul 05 04:37
*cj emails rmsJul 05 04:38
cj*sigh*Jul 05 04:38
Carl_Rover2k12cj: I have not read every word of it but it seems to detail what the guidelines of an open source development community and license should followJul 05 04:38
Carl_Rover2k12cj: it also seems to be more or less moralJul 05 04:39
Carl_Rover2k12cj: let me guess you want me to see the 5th clause right?Jul 05 04:39
Carl_Rover2k12cj: I am still trying to figure out what exactly you want me to see in this. It all seems opinionated.Jul 05 04:40
cjCarl_Rover2k12: ah.  this is the document that inspired the term "Open Source."  The then-DPL, ESR and Tim O'Reilly got together and coined the term "Open Source."  Tim then started holding events at the same time and place as The Perl Conference and created the Open Source movement.Jul 05 04:43
cjCarl_Rover2k12: RMS doesn't like it much, though, since it misses the point of Free Software.Jul 05 04:44
cjwell, he likes it enough to have written an essay for inclusion in Open Sources...Jul 05 04:44
cj 05 04:44
cjbut he prefers that people say "Free Software" and "GNU/Linux"Jul 05 04:45
cj 05 04:45
cjanyway, the OS that created the DFSG (Debian Free Software Guidelines) has approved of the Ms/PL (Microsoft Public License) and included Mono in the default desktop editionJul 05 04:47
Carl_Rover2k12cj: so he really wants people to follow his semantics in order to come away with something he hopes they should learnJul 05 04:47
cjCarl_Rover2k12: indeed.  I think RMS is pretty awesome.  His point about patents needs addressing.Jul 05 04:47
Carl_Rover2k12cj: but not every Linux distro has, Fedora devs even stated Mono will never be included.Jul 05 04:47
cjthe US patent laws need to be fixedJul 05 04:47
cjCarl_Rover2k12: yep.  and that's their choice.  you can even remove it from debian.  it doesn't even come in the server version.Jul 05 04:48
Carl_Rover2k12cj: that is true, but remember this mostly concerns the creation and distribution of software in the context of being a mathematic algorithm or software syntaxJul 05 04:50
SpagCodeis that proposal before the courts or has it been proposed to do so ?Jul 05 04:51
Carl_Rover2k12cj: a GPL is a way for the software to be distributed as freely as possible without the code itself being contested.Jul 05 04:53
SpagCodepublic domain is even more freeJul 05 04:54
Carl_Rover2k12cj: actually forget what I last stated if you didn't disregard it already, I meant the use of the code being contested.Jul 05 04:56
SpagCodeare you meaning contested against patents ?Jul 05 04:57
Carl_Rover2k12cj: this is probably one of the reasons that can be made clear why Mono may have those who strictly adhere to GPL/GNU in an uproar: 05 04:58
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Carl_Rover2k12anyway I g2g I hope some of what I posted helps create an understanding for why there is certain animosity towards projects such as MonoJul 05 05:05
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*cj applies for positions with the DNCJul 05 05:11
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twitterbrilliant, " Theoretically, you can’t buy Washington Post reporters, but you can rent them." 05 05:44
SpagCode"all the presidents men" i just watched that movie again the other day :)Jul 05 05:47
twitterha ha, Wall Street Journal and Economist are also for sale it seems, 05 05:56
twitterHarvard Business School.  We all knew Business School was BS, now we know the big one is Big BS too.Jul 05 05:57
SpagCodeMBA's and "creative accounting" can be thanked for the sub-prime SNAFUJul 05 05:59
twitterdark and moody news lady 05 06:05
twitter"wanna buy my influence?"Jul 05 06:05
twitterHoly crap, she said this?!! -> " She has made public comments praising The Huffington Post for its clever headlines, a compliment that did not endear her to reporters who see their own work splashed on or criticized on the Web site."Jul 05 06:07
twitterfrom NYT article.Jul 05 06:07
twitterThe Huffington Post is pure drek.Jul 05 06:07
twitter"Clever" is not a word that comes to mind when I read it.  Words like, "Hack-knee" "gag" and "please" come to mind.Jul 05 06:08
twitter"Sell out" seems about right for HP.Jul 05 06:09
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cjan don't get him started on gay marriageJul 05 06:26
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twitterM$ shows real class here, 05 06:28
twitterThey really do hate their customers.Jul 05 06:28
twitterlaughed at by WSJ, 05 06:29
cjtwitter: stay on topic?Jul 05 06:30
cjSpagCode: topic?Jul 05 06:30
twitterIt's too bad they did not note that IE is the only browser that lacks basic features like history erase.Jul 05 06:30
cjtwitter: it has history erase...Jul 05 06:31
cjtwitter: but that was good "reporting."  That whole checking facts thing is really over-rated.Jul 05 06:31
cjtwitter: before mouthing off about things, you should really get to know the technology.  I like IE less than you, but it's for real reasons, not things I make up.Jul 05 06:32
twitterIt would be even nicer if they noted GNU/Linux's excellent user separation that makes it so people can have their privacy and share computers.  Unix was made to keep hundreds of users from stepping on each other's toes.Jul 05 06:33
twitterAlternate ad, has Bill Gates know everything both of them do, thanks to Windows built in encrypted communications to the mother ship.Jul 05 06:34
SpagCodeRead your history, UNIX was originally made for single user.Jul 05 06:35
twitter"Hairy-----, get real, mamma!  I know you've been sleeping with the lawn mower and that's the reason DH ain't getting any.  Windows can make both of you more happy with M$ Divorce."Jul 05 06:36
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twitterHa ha, Cisco stabs M$ in the back 05 06:38
SpagCodeand its like everyone has taken up "the cloud" and its a booming industry !! :)Jul 05 06:40
twittereasier on the browser.  The last link wanted to send me hundreds of images without ever loading. 05 06:41
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-BNc/#boycottnovell-[nickballard] Ubuntu a Microsoft product? 05 07:48
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EruaranActually, UNIX was intented to run on different types of hardware so that different computers could all work together nicely and people wouldn't have to learn how to use dispirate and different computer systems that couldn't talk to each other.Jul 05 08:34
EruaranSo multi user was a given from the start.Jul 05 08:34
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EruaranAt least it was a consideration early onJul 05 08:40
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yuhong 05 08:53
yuhongIn particular the comments are good.Jul 05 08:53
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SpagCodemulti-platform and multi-user are two different things.Jul 05 09:16
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-BNc/#boycottnovell-[_goblin] Listening to the soundtracker file Enigma....great track...Back to the A500 #demoscene days!Jul 05 10:13
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oiaohmHmm this place is being very quiteJul 05 10:23
_GoblinI think its because Roy is away...The softies are allowed a small holiday.Jul 05 10:52
_GoblinI think Ballmer has given them a few days off until Roy returns..Jul 05 10:53
oiaohmNews was getting slow before Roy took time off.Jul 05 10:59
_GoblinThe stock exchange news is pretty big...Jul 05 11:02
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_Goblinhello lichJul 05 11:03
LichHi allJul 05 11:03
LichI opened a site dedicated to free and open source distribution and development :)Jul 05 11:03
_Goblinlink?Jul 05 11:04 :PJul 05 11:06
Lichwe are still updatingJul 05 11:06
Lichopened few days agoJul 05 11:06
_Goblincool...ill link it on my blog.Jul 05 11:06
Lichwe have idea of building Open source/ Free DiskJul 05 11:07
Lichsomething like universal disk with free softwareJul 05 11:07
_GoblinNice layout of your site!Jul 05 11:07
_Goblinputs me in mind of Nectarine..Jul 05 11:08
Lichthank you. The disk would come with operating systemJul 05 11:08
Lichour target is now Open Source for LinuxJul 05 11:09
_GoblinIm still working on my Workbench 1.3 project....Jul 05 11:09
oiaohm  Ok I was thinking not another one like this.Jul 05 11:09
Lichafter that will aim at windowsJul 05 11:09
oiaohmThere have be many attempts at disk for Linux.Jul 05 11:09
oiaohmBiggest issue is packaging differences between distributions.Jul 05 11:10
Lichyea i knowJul 05 11:11
LichFirst we will make it for windowsJul 05 11:11
Lichbut also include some linux programsJul 05 11:11
oiaohmFor Linux things are on your side really.Jul 05 11:11
oiaohmDRI2 and KMS alterations in time will allow more than 1 X11 server to be run.Jul 05 11:12
Lichwe will include Cedega in Windows CDJul 05 11:15
oiaohmThinking I do support with the wine project.Jul 05 11:16
Lichso the people could see linux programs on windowsJul 05 11:17
oiaohmCedega does have its limitations.Jul 05 11:17
oiaohmCedega is windows programs on Linux.Jul 05 11:18
oiaohmLike wine they are both related.Jul 05 11:18
oiaohmComerical supported wine is cross over.Jul 05 11:18
Lichhmm i think i confused it with linux program support for windowsJul 05 11:18
oiaohm 05 11:18
oiaohmThere are others.Jul 05 11:19
oiaohmSomething I would not mind seeing is a KDE disk for windows.Jul 05 11:20
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Carl_Rover2k12cj: whatsupJul 05 11:21
LichWe are currently looking for enthusiasts that are eager to help us to build CDJul 05 11:21
Carl_Rover2k12CD=?Jul 05 11:21
LichOpen CDJul 05 11:21
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LichAn CD of open source and free programsJul 05 11:23
LichA*Jul 05 11:23
Carl_Rover2k12Lich: on a Windows OS? Does it happen to use that now discontinued app that strips Internet Explorer from it?Jul 05 11:23
LichWhat do you mean? Yes we are aiming for windows firstJul 05 11:24
_GoblinLich: Make sure you include Klibido on your disk...the best, most understated NG binaries grabber.Jul 05 11:24
LichSure we are open for suggestions from usersJul 05 11:25
oiaohmLich my issue is a lot of software cd's for windows exist.Jul 05 11:25
oiaohmIn the open source world.Jul 05 11:25
Carl_Rover2k12Lich: of course and it makes the most sense, but what kind of devs do you need then if all you need to do is take Windows XP strip it of IE and use FairUse4WM or some other app that removes DRM encoding then put it in a imageJul 05 11:25
oiaohmWhat exactly will make what you create different to the crowd in the market LichJul 05 11:26
LichCarl the CD would be as the CD for startersJul 05 11:26
Lichwe the software they would need. All legal and free. It would save their time plus it would be more effective to give them set of applications.Jul 05 11:27
oiaohmBeen done may times.Jul 05 11:27
LichWe are planing to release CD bundled with applications for different groups.Jul 05 11:27
SpagCodeits called the internet,Jul 05 11:27
oiaohm  << Look at what makes u the osswin-cd group LichJul 05 11:28
oiaohmWe really don't need duplication.Jul 05 11:28
Lichi didJul 05 11:28
oiaohmThere are others.Jul 05 11:28
oiaohmWhat is missing is something like distrowatch for them.Jul 05 11:28
LichI know.Jul 05 11:28
Carl_Rover2k12does anyone remember the name of that application which removed Internet Explorer and all its extensions, which then the developer was forced to stop due to a cease and desist or being "employed?"Jul 05 11:29
oiaohmI normally do it the nlite method Carl_Rover2k12Jul 05 11:29
LichLater we are thinking of shiping CD with some linux distributions(linux or windows programs cd )Jul 05 11:31
Carl_Rover2k12oiaohm: thanks, thats the app I was thinking of I heard there will be no update for Windows 7Jul 05 11:32
LichThe main difference im aiming for is making CD for different groupsJul 05 11:34
_GoblinLich...I have a list of progs which have not been updated for a while and are usually overlooked.  Its a shame because there is some great stuff in there......Jul 05 11:37
_GoblinKlibido for example hasnt been updated since 2005...its still the best Nzb app out there (IMO)Jul 05 11:37
LichWell as i said we need user opinion we are open to every suggestionJul 05 11:39
_GoblinMaybe that is your "gap" in the market Lich?  A disk full of rare titles that are very handy...Jul 05 11:39
_GoblinI'll make you a list...Jul 05 11:39
_Goblinalthough, much of it is src only so you will have to package yourself..Jul 05 11:40
Lichsure NPJul 05 11:40
Lichthe list would be niceJul 05 11:40
_Goblinyeah np....Ill hunt my archives!Jul 05 11:41
oiaohmCarl_Rover2k12: vlite is the vista releation.Jul 05 11:48
oiaohmCarl_Rover2k12:  At this stage no Windows 7 version has been made.   The lite programs are always created after the offical release.Jul 05 11:49
oiaohmIssue I have is without targets I cannot even pick you list of suitable software to sort through to make a cd LichJul 05 11:53
Lichnp you can give us what you findJul 05 11:56
oiaohm  This one is education targeted.Jul 05 11:56
Lichwe'll think of somethingJul 05 11:57
oiaohmMy list of applications is huge.Jul 05 11:57
oiaohmThere is at least 10 000 applications from the open source world that work on windows.Jul 05 11:58
oiaohm  One of the more interesting existing disk designs.  its a mixture of free open source and documentation.Jul 05 12:01
oiaohmReally I think start creating a index site of the pre existing LichJul 05 12:05
Lichi willJul 05 12:05
Lichbtw while im making a list can someone please tell me what's ReactOSJul 05 12:06
Lichi know it's linux basedJul 05 12:06
oiaohmWrongJul 05 12:07
_Goblinits an implimentation that uses Wine code isnt it?Jul 05 12:07
_Goblinto provide a XP replacementJul 05 12:07
oiaohmReactOS developers would kill you for that state ment LichJul 05 12:07
_Goblinvia a replacement Win APIJul 05 12:07
_Goblinor am I wrong there?Jul 05 12:08
oiaohmReactOS is a pure clone of the internal design of NT kernel that includes XP even areas of Vista and windows 7Jul 05 12:08
oiaohmIts still an alpha LichJul 05 12:08
oiaohmOpen source old motto cannot beat them clone them.Jul 05 12:09
_Goblinfrom briefly looking at it now, Id suggest you are better off with a Linux/Wine distro for Windows compat...Jul 05 12:09
Lichno i accidently run on it founding itJul 05 12:09
SpagCodeif you cant beat them, be themJul 05 12:10
_Goblinif you want something different, try AROSJul 05 12:10
oiaohmReactos is complete enough to run all the windows drivers yet.Jul 05 12:10
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oiaohmSo when it comes to hardware support its behind Linux at this stage.Jul 05 12:11
_Goblinlich: First page of ReactOS "This is not a Linux based system, and shares none of the unix architecture."Jul 05 12:12
oiaohmThere are a lot of edge OS in the open source world that are unique.Jul 05 12:12
oiaohmAROS is a strange one.  It can either run on Linux or its own unique kernel.Jul 05 12:13
LichAnyway i just don't see the point of itJul 05 12:13
oiaohmIts just the normal Open Source world.Jul 05 12:13
_GoblinOiaohm, did I read somewhere that Reactos is based on much of the Wine code???? I'm sure I saw that somewhere.....Jul 05 12:13
_Goblincould be wrong of course.Jul 05 12:14
oiaohmWine dlls are used in Reactos.Jul 05 12:14
_GoblinahJul 05 12:14
oiaohmWine dlls can operate on windows as well.Jul 05 12:14
oiaohmAlso Reactos uses Wine test cases to prevent regressions.Jul 05 12:14
oiaohmThere is some sharing between the two projectsJul 05 12:14
oiaohm  << Compared to this Reactos does have a point LichJul 05 12:15
_Goblinbut as the MS faithful would say "Dont worry there is always XPM mode in 7" they just dont tell you there is no DX support.Jul 05 12:16
oiaohmOr working opengl support.Jul 05 12:16
_Goblinand if you don't have the correct processor, tough luck.Jul 05 12:16
oiaohmWith wined3d if you had working opengl you can get DirectX at least partly working.Jul 05 12:16
_Goblinoh and lets not forget, its only available in the more expensive 7 versions.Jul 05 12:17
oiaohmYes wined3d part of wine has developers from companies who make virtual machines.Jul 05 12:17
_Goblinand oiohm, Ive had quite good results with Wined3dJul 05 12:17
oiaohmAnd make sure it runs on windows.Jul 05 12:17
oiaohmWine project has hooks in all kinds of directions.Jul 05 12:18
LichWindows 7 is just scamJul 05 12:18
_GoblinIts not a scam for Vista users....anythings better than that....Jul 05 12:18
_Goblin;)Jul 05 12:18
Lichtough that's trueJul 05 12:19
_GoblinThose are the people that will have to upgrade.Jul 05 12:19
_Goblineveryone else will stay with XP.Jul 05 12:19
_Goblinor move elsewhereJul 05 12:19
Lichi have strange opinion that they are using bugged kernel for all NT OS like they can't develope new kernelJul 05 12:19
oiaohmWhen samba has a working ADS that should be end of this year middle of next  MS server rooms will be in trouble.Jul 05 12:20
oiaohmWhy pay for windows when you have unlimited cals with samba.Jul 05 12:20
oiaohmNT kernel design is quite good really.Jul 05 12:20
*_Goblin has quit ("Lost terminal")Jul 05 12:21
oiaohmMS implementation in places suxs big time.Jul 05 12:21
oiaohmMS problem is applications.   MS was trying to get app developers to use .net something not native to make platform transfer simpler.Jul 05 12:22
oiaohmSecond wave of Linux push for desktop will start when Linux gets control of the server room.Jul 05 12:23
SpagCodeto win the desktop you have to win the hearts and minds of the average computer user, that person does not even know they are using XP or Vista or whatever,  thats most people.Jul 05 12:26
oiaohmYou just stated why you don't need to win the harts and minds.Jul 05 12:27
oiaohmOnly people you really need to win is management.Jul 05 12:27
oiaohmBecause users don't care SpagCodeJul 05 12:27
LichThey want something easy to useJul 05 12:28
oiaohmAnd don't care what.Jul 05 12:28
SpagCodethey dont care because what they have does what they want.Jul 05 12:28
oiaohmWrong SpagCodeJul 05 12:28
oiaohmThey simple don't care.Jul 05 12:29
oiaohmAnything that will do what they want is suitable.Jul 05 12:29
SpagCodebut for a reason, like it or not. and thats the reason.Jul 05 12:29
Lichthey just need job doneJul 05 12:29
oiaohmPeople use Linux phones and don't care.Jul 05 12:30
oiaohmPeople use Linux routers and don't care.Jul 05 12:30
SpagCodeofcourse they do.Jul 05 12:30
oiaohmAs long as it works they will not care.Jul 05 12:30
oiaohmNo need to win them.Jul 05 12:30
SpagCodethats right, thats what I said, as long as it does what they want and expect they dont care.Jul 05 12:30
oiaohmThat is not the battle to win.Jul 05 12:30
oiaohmOEM and system admins are the ones you have to win.Jul 05 12:31
LichBtw once the Linux get's game company support it's: Don't cry for me MicrosoftJul 05 12:31
SpagCodeSo for them to change from something they dont care about to your product you have to make them care, or force them to use it.Jul 05 12:31
oiaohmOEM like windows because of all the kick backs from trial ware.Jul 05 12:31
oiaohmEffectively it costs OEMS money to put Linux on at the moment.Jul 05 12:31
oiaohmBecause kick backs are more than the Licence cost of windows.Jul 05 12:32
SpagCodeofcourse it does, it also costs you to put on Windows, but with linux MS takes responsibility for OS and software upkeep.Jul 05 12:32
oiaohmLOLJul 05 12:32
SpagCodeDoes you employer get kickbacks ?Jul 05 12:32
oiaohmYes.Jul 05 12:33
oiaohmWindows is -35 dollars on a machine with trialware.Jul 05 12:33
SpagCodeIf they got kickbacks, it would be all over the WEB, with whistleblowersJul 05 12:33
oiaohmMS Office Trail version is paided to be there.Jul 05 12:33
oiaohmTrail versions of anti-virus are paid to be there and so on.Jul 05 12:34
oiaohmIf company don't pay OEM will not place it on system that simple as a trial.Jul 05 12:34
SpagCodeis minus $35 a kickback.Jul 05 12:34
SpagCodesounds like a discount,Jul 05 12:34
oiaohmIe 35 dollars lessJul 05 12:34
oiaohmWith windows on.Jul 05 12:35
SpagCodebut a kickback is a sum of money paid for a legal purchase.Jul 05 12:35
oiaohmIf person wants a clean machine they pay full windows price.Jul 05 12:35
SpagCodeyea, a discountJul 05 12:35
oiaohmNot really.Jul 05 12:35
oiaohmLot of cases trialware makes computer slow.Jul 05 12:35
SpagCodenothing wrong with discounts, to big customers, and thats not a kickback as you well knowJul 05 12:35
oiaohmLinux lacks enough trialware.Jul 05 12:36
oiaohmOnce Linux has enough of that money advantage of windows will disappear for OEMs.Jul 05 12:36
SpagCodeby definition all software will make your computer slower, sure if you have a computer with no software running is a super fast ?? noJul 05 12:37
oiaohmNote the OEMs don't pass along most of the discount.Jul 05 12:37
oiaohmWrong SpagCodeJul 05 12:37
oiaohmNot all software makes computer slower just by being installed.Jul 05 12:37
SpagCodeprobably not because OEM try to ship linux and the customer dont want it.Jul 05 12:37
oiaohmOnly running software makes it slower.Jul 05 12:37
oiaohmOEM's will do anything to make profit and beat competition.Jul 05 12:38
oiaohmIf OEM's were happy with Windows performance they would not be shipping with splashtop and the like.Jul 05 12:38
SpagCodeneither does trialware slow by just being installed, again as you should know, its only running apps that take cpu cycles, that means its running,Jul 05 12:38
oiaohmLot of trialware runs services to do there monitoring and countdown.Jul 05 12:39
oiaohmSo yes effects speed of the system from being installed SpagCodeJul 05 12:39
SpagCodeusers are happy with windows performance, and that whey they overwhelmingly choose.Jul 05 12:39
oiaohmAgain a joke.Jul 05 12:39
oiaohmThere is a booming rip off business selling tools to make windows faster.Jul 05 12:40
oiaohmThat really don't work or break the OS completely.Jul 05 12:40
oiaohmThat market only exists because users are unhappy SpagCodeJul 05 12:40
SpagCodebooming market, Sure there is. :)Jul 05 12:41
oiaohmYou cannot call windows users happy.Jul 05 12:41
SpagCodeI hear your in the computer industry, you should know better, or do you think if you say it enough times it will become true ?Jul 05 12:41
oiaohmI deal with windows users a lot.Jul 05 12:42
oiaohmMost common question is how to make this machine faster.Jul 05 12:42
trmancocoolJul 05 12:43
oiaohmAlso having to fix up machines after users have used those so called speed up software.Jul 05 12:43
trmancoJason has accepted me :>Jul 05 12:43
SpagCodeI deal with them alot too, and in the real world too.Jul 05 12:43
trmancofrom mono nonoJul 05 12:43
oiaohmSplashtop is OEM trying to answer the users demards for faster.Jul 05 12:43
SpagCodeand having faster computers is the goal of most people after using a computer for awile.Jul 05 12:43
oiaohmWhile still making profit threw trial and install kick backs.Jul 05 12:43
oiaohmNo having computer work faster.Jul 05 12:44
oiaohmNot just faster computer.Jul 05 12:44
oiaohmOS that needs more resources so removing the gains of faster computer is not making user happy.Jul 05 12:44
oiaohmArgument that windows users is happy is not backed up by there actions.Jul 05 12:45
oiaohmMS missed the memo with Vista that users wanted faster working computer.Jul 05 12:46
LichI must say that an average users still has impresion of when you say linux to him he think about system with CMDJul 05 12:46
Lichuser*Jul 05 12:46
SpagCodefor the past mabey 10 years, computers are "lightnight fast" its to the point most users perceive almost zero delay when they perform functions, its only the diehard gamers who chase massive FPS valuesJul 05 12:46
Lichthinks*Jul 05 12:46
oiaohmLOL SpagCodeJul 05 12:46
oiaohmSoftware is doing more these days.   So all the CPU performance gains have ment basically nothing to user speed of operations.   Creating a basic letter on windows 3.11 with MS works 4.5 on a machine from 1994 is faster than creating a letter using word on XP.Jul 05 12:48
oiaohmFrom basic operation tests we have gone backwards.Jul 05 12:48
oiaohmVista was just following the trend and users said enough is enough.Jul 05 12:49
SpagCodeI can have huge amount of apps running and my cpu will be limping along at well below 50%, and 1% or less with no apps and just the OS.Jul 05 12:49
LichWindows doesn't manage well what you give to himJul 05 12:49
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oiaohmWindows very rarely can allocate over 60 percent of your total CPU power.Jul 05 12:50
oiaohmLot of time is wasted in CPU consuming locks.Jul 05 12:50
SpagCodedoes it all the time, routinelyJul 05 12:51
oiaohm100 percent in ms reporting.Jul 05 12:51
oiaohmIs not 100 percent cpu usage.Jul 05 12:51
oiaohmLocks count as usage.Jul 05 12:51
SpagCodeagain i think you are saying what you would like to be the case and what is not really the case, and you sound like a smart guy, do you think you are fooling many ??Jul 05 12:52
oiaohmSpeek to reactos developers about the locking errors in windows.Jul 05 12:52
oiaohmWindows 7 only has addressed some of them.Jul 05 12:52
oiaohmThe information is out there if you want to find it SpagCode.  In docuentation writing about windows internals by third parties and all.Jul 05 12:53
oiaohmLinux kernel is only now starting to get on top of its locking troubles.Jul 05 12:55
oiaohmLocking issues are not unique to windows SpagCodeJul 05 12:56
oiaohmFor cost from Locking issues MS is about the worse OS out there.Jul 05 12:57
SpagCodewhat im saying is Windows XP, Vista, Win7 all are quick enough and the average users does not even usually know which one they are using or care.Jul 05 12:57
SpagCodeand they would not know or care about locks or cpu cyclesJul 05 12:57
oiaohmThen why do average users go hunting down tools to increase performance.Jul 05 12:57
oiaohmThere actions don't match your words.Jul 05 12:58
SpagCodegenerally they dont, as you know.Jul 05 12:58
oiaohmGenerally they do.Jul 05 12:58
oiaohmAsking people how to increase the speed of there machines and so on.Jul 05 12:58
oiaohmThat is the problem SpagCodeJul 05 12:59
oiaohmDoes not help due to design issues that windows does slow down the longer it is installed.Jul 05 13:00
SpagCodewell its obviously not enough of a problem for them to actively look for an alternative product or even care when product they are actually using.Jul 05 13:00
SpagCodeyes, Win95 used to slow down very tru, XP on no.Jul 05 13:01
oiaohmHow do you look for a different product if you don't see the different product.Jul 05 13:01
oiaohmXP does too SpagCodeJul 05 13:01
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oiaohmLogs and other things do have prices SpagCode.Jul 05 13:01
SpagCodeI had the same version of XP on the same machine for 8 years, and no it does not.Jul 05 13:01
oiaohmWhat tools did you run on it to keep it that way.  Or has it been sitting in a carboard box for 8 years.Jul 05 13:03
SpagCodeno it was on the net all day everyday, and on most of the time, all I ever had was AvgFreeJul 05 13:04
oiaohmSimple fact here there are many operations in XP design that will slow it down.Jul 05 13:04
oiaohmLike growing registries and logs.Jul 05 13:05
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oiaohmMaybe you are one of the few that don't notice.Jul 05 13:05
oiaohmPlease note the few that don't notice is the smaller percentage.Jul 05 13:06
SpagCodethe size of the registary does not make any difference to speed, the reg is a RDB system, and mabey I deleted IE temp directory contence every year or so.Jul 05 13:06
SpagCodeand defrag mabey once every 2 yearsJul 05 13:06
oiaohmSee you are doing things.Jul 05 13:07
oiaohmReg does make a differrence over time larger it gets high risk it has of fragmenting internally.Jul 05 13:07
oiaohmSo becoming slow to perform look ups on.Jul 05 13:08
SpagCodeOnly an idiot would not do any "housekeeping" and basic precausions.Jul 05 13:08
oiaohmYou are talking 90 percent of users.Jul 05 13:08
oiaohmWho don't do housekeeping.Jul 05 13:08
oiaohmReason there work machines don't need it.Jul 05 13:08
oiaohmAnd the reason for that is the system admins are doing itJul 05 13:09
SpagCodeactually most do have some knowledge of anti-virus programs and most even know about defrag and even checkdisk.Jul 05 13:09
oiaohmLot skip doing defrags after a while.Jul 05 13:09
SpagCodebut alot dont, just as alot of people can drive a car but cannot fix one.Jul 05 13:09
oiaohmSo to the general the machine just slows down over time.Jul 05 13:10
oiaohmThen they get tools sold to magically fix it and kill there machines.Jul 05 13:10
SpagCodeeven defrags or lack of them dont make much difference.Jul 05 13:11
SpagCodeas you know the biggest impact is the RAM and whether you have opened that app before, so its sill in memory.Jul 05 13:11
oiaohmlogs and registry are bigger causes than disk fragmentation.Jul 05 13:11
SpagCodetry, starting a pc running word, shutting it down and running it again, the second time it will load far faster.Jul 05 13:12
oiaohmI have speed a machine up simply by clearing ntuser.datJul 05 13:12
oiaohmSpagCode: Linux is the same.Jul 05 13:12
oiaohmWhen a program is run its not straight up deleted from memory.Jul 05 13:13
oiaohmDifference under some applications use fast starters to do it so making start up slower.Jul 05 13:13
oiaohmWindows world applications are highly dirty in the methods they are using as well.Jul 05 13:14
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oiaohmNice has been UAC in vista.   Lot of applications have added a service to perform operations they would need UAC for as a higher user.  So user does not get UAC messages.Jul 05 13:15
oiaohmAll these things have prices.Jul 05 13:16
oiaohmLinux desktop developers woke up to this problem added a thing called dbus.   A single management service to allow high right things to be started on need.  So avoiding the startup overhead and backround cpu usage.Jul 05 13:17
ThistleWebto be fair, all this user permission safety must be a relatively new concept for windows developers, they only had to start thinking about it with vistaJul 05 13:17
ThistleWebbefore vista they could assume the user was an adminJul 05 13:18
ThistleWebor had admin rights, even if they were a joe sixpackJul 05 13:18
oiaohmAlso lot of window developers don't want to respect user permissions.Jul 05 13:18
oiaohmI remember my argument in wine mailing list over it.Jul 05 13:19
ThistleWebasking users permission means that they have to explain what they want, in a way that users understand, or risk the user saying noJul 05 13:19
ThistleWebif they can avoid asking, they avoid that riskJul 05 13:19
oiaohmStupid idea just because wine was running on Linux had the idea as a normal user could do anything without risking running in the Mandoray access controlJul 05 13:19
ThistleWebpresumed consentJul 05 13:19
oiaohmAnd cause the program to be terminated.Jul 05 13:19
oiaohmHow windows coders are responding to the restrictsions are hack around costing performance.Jul 05 13:20
ThistleWebdevelopers who have been living in a windows only world for years have gotten into habits that the UAC is forcing them to adjust toJul 05 13:21
oiaohmNoJul 05 13:21
oiaohmThey adjusted just by pass with a service.Jul 05 13:21
oiaohmSo don't bother respecting UAC at all.Jul 05 13:21
ThistleWebso it's a bypass they didnt have to do before UACJul 05 13:21
ThistleWebthey still have to react to itJul 05 13:22
ThistleWebor their apps dont run, and their customers find other apps that doJul 05 13:22
ThistleWebadjusting to, and respecting are not the same thing, although they could beJul 05 13:22
oiaohmUAC was a flawed design.Jul 05 13:23
oiaohmIt should have restricted services as well.Jul 05 13:23
oiaohmThen I have windows developers who say if that happens they would just look at injecting code to bi pass.Jul 05 13:23
SpagCodewhat is there to adjust too ? clicking "OK" hmmm done that once or twice.Jul 05 13:23
oiaohmThey are about as bad as virus writers.Jul 05 13:23
ThistleWebit took Microsoft YEARS of complaints to introduce any concept of user permission control, UAC is a first attempt, in their usual clugey wayJul 05 13:24
oiaohmLets take Linux policy kit basically Linux world UAC.Jul 05 13:24
oiaohmNumber 1 Linux policykit can remember what applications are allowed todo.Jul 05 13:25
oiaohmFrom day 1.Jul 05 13:25
oiaohmIt was designed 3 years before MS created UAC.Jul 05 13:25
ThistleWebunix / linux was built with user permission from the start, rather than a bolted on sticky plasterJul 05 13:25
oiaohmNT was designed with user permissions from the start too.Jul 05 13:25
oiaohmFor years MS just disabled them.Jul 05 13:25
ThistleWebI should have said "user running as a user, rather than root"Jul 05 13:26
oiaohmBy allowing users to run with max rights.Jul 05 13:26
oiaohmLets look at why UAC makes so much noise.Jul 05 13:26
oiaohmThe idea was that UAC would upset users so much they would complain to application developers to fix there applications.Jul 05 13:27
SpagCodethe only noise about it comes from Linux users.Jul 05 13:27
oiaohmResult was simple.  Users don't care.Jul 05 13:27
SpagCodeno one else cares !Jul 05 13:27
oiaohmSo users just found ways to turn UAC off.Jul 05 13:27
EruaranWhat a load of rubbish SpagCodeJul 05 13:27
oiaohmAnd basically sent no complaints to software developers.Jul 05 13:28
EruaranI've long since lost count of how many customers who have complained about UACJul 05 13:28
ThistleWebmy understanding of the initial hassle with UAC is that most M$ apps are set to run their stuff as admin, as they could be almost assured that every user had admin rights, so when that got lowered, it needed to ask at every turn, which means a flood of questions that most users didn't understand, so they just turned it offJul 05 13:28
EruaranYour'e full of shitJul 05 13:28
oiaohmSoftware developers work around UAC.Jul 05 13:28
oiaohmSo they don't get picked up in QA.Jul 05 13:28
oiaohmThey complain about UAC.Jul 05 13:28
oiaohmNot the applications triggering it Eruaran.Jul 05 13:29
EruaranEveryone complains about UACJul 05 13:29
oiaohmAnd basically works out how to turn it off so they can do there work EruaranJul 05 13:29
ThistleWebafter apps have been adjusted to deal with UAC, they get less or no questions, whether that's the app set to run at a proper user level, or a workaround to get permission by not askingJul 05 13:29
EruaranAnyone who says otherwise is an idiot who doesn't listen to people or just a flunky pushing Microsoft's tilt on the worldJul 05 13:29
SpagCodeok whatever you reconJul 05 13:30
Eruaranyeah I doJul 05 13:30
EruaranI deal with real people every day mateJul 05 13:30
ThistleWebso it's not too hard to believe that 2 years after Vista has been out, many apps have been adjusted already, as well as Microsoft trying to do what they can to save VistaJul 05 13:30
oiaohmWhat are they compainign about UAC or the application cause UAC to show messages SpagCodeJul 05 13:30
EruaranNot people living in their own little bubble's who like to pretend they know something about the real worldJul 05 13:30
ThistleWebso I can believe that the UAC aint as annoying now as it wasJul 05 13:30
oiaohmUsers only care about UAC because its getting in the way.Jul 05 13:31
oiaohmOnly thing users truly care about is getting stuff done.Jul 05 13:31
oiaohmThey don't care about OS they don't care about applications.Jul 05 13:31
ThistleWebthe problem for any questions the PC asks, and the normal user, is they dont understand the questions a lot of the time, and dont know if they should allow or deny something, so they almost always allow it, in case denying it breaks something and they dont know how to reverse itJul 05 13:32
ThistleWebwhich defeats the purposeJul 05 13:32
oiaohmAnd they really don't want to be asked either.Jul 05 13:32
ThistleWebexactlyJul 05 13:32
oiaohmBecause the question does not have anything to do with getting the job done.Jul 05 13:32
oiaohmIts why saying users are happy with any OS is the biggest lie.Jul 05 13:33
ThistleWebit's like firewall training, the first time you run an app after installing one it can be set to ask the user for yes or noJul 05 13:33
oiaohmThe question really is what does that OS/software allow user to do fast.Jul 05 13:34
ThistleWebthat should all be done for the user before they get their pc, with sensible setupsJul 05 13:34
oiaohmThat is most likely the reason why they are using it.Jul 05 13:34
oiaohmWith preinstalled OS's is simply straight up use the machine.Jul 05 13:34
oiaohmSo why bother changing.Jul 05 13:34
ThistleWebyepJul 05 13:34
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oiaohmSo of someone release a Linux machine that does everything people want to do simply it will sell.Jul 05 13:36
oiaohmOS is really not a factor.Jul 05 13:36
oiaohmI guess that is not what you are expecting to hear SpagCode.   That users really don't care about much.Jul 05 13:37
oiaohmSystem admins and OEM's have stuff releated to the OS to care about.  Like working secuirty and profit lines.Jul 05 13:38
SpagCodeas long it does it how they want it too, and uses software that is everywhere, including for their Cell phone and everything with a one click install file. mabeyJul 05 13:38
SpagCodeI know users dont care, as long as when they have does what they want, like and know.Jul 05 13:39
ThistleWebwindows is designed for making money for companiesJul 05 13:39
oiaohmLinux has not fixed look and feel SpagCodeJul 05 13:39
oiaohmSo it can look and feel like any OS in existance.Jul 05 13:40
SpagCodemost products are, by providing something people are willing to pay for.Jul 05 13:40
ThistleWebgotta love M$ giving away a free anti-virus, to fill holes left by uhm......M$ in designing windowsJul 05 13:40
oiaohmOr users don't know better SpagCode.Jul 05 13:40
oiaohmI know people who buy full MS office just for typing letters.Jul 05 13:40
ThistleWebmind you, if they did their jobs right and made windows secure, they'd kill a lot of businesses who have kept them afloat for years, like SymanticJul 05 13:40
SpagCodeis giving away software bad ?Jul 05 13:41
oiaohmThis is MS secound attempt at an anti-virus.Jul 05 13:41
oiaohmFirst attempt was a complete failure.Jul 05 13:41
ThistleWebit is indeed, after one-careJul 05 13:41
ThistleWebwhich got consistently low reviewsJul 05 13:41
oiaohmOk third attempt.Jul 05 13:41
oiaohmThere was one back in the dos age.Jul 05 13:42
oiaohmUsing crc checksums.Jul 05 13:42
ThistleWebthey do have a track record of consistency, ya have to hand it to them, consistently shitJul 05 13:42
ThistleWebI notice the Symantic boss telling users not to be too reliant on free anti-virus appsJul 05 13:42
oiaohmAlso you know they are woried when they funding developers to add real-time scanning hooking to the Linux kernel.Jul 05 13:43
oiaohmTo the mainline Linux kernel.Jul 05 13:43
oiaohmSo they can keep on selling there product.Jul 05 13:43
ThistleWebthey have the security of their customers in mind of course, which is strange, as if they did, they wouldn't make windows apps, and would tell their customers to start with a secure base system.....which would of course mean that security companies like Symantic wouldn't have customersJul 05 13:43
oiaohmMS move into anti-virus may give Linux OEM money from anti-virus trial versions.Jul 05 13:44
ThistleWebso the real message is "keep paying us for a false sense of security, while in reality you're on a system that will keep getting infected and that's just the way we like it"Jul 05 13:44
oiaohmThat would make the cost of windows and Linux equal.Jul 05 13:45
ThistleWebI just find it iffy that the company making and selling the product, also makes the patches, so why dont they just fix the holes in the first place, rather than introduce a product which does and keep the holes there, so there's a need for the product to fix themJul 05 13:46
ThistleWebit's 2 parts of the company with opposite motivationsJul 05 13:46
ThistleWebif the OS guys do too good of a job, the AV guys have no productJul 05 13:47
ThistleWeband vice cersaJul 05 13:47
SpagCodebut its ok for ubuntu to ship with 60,000 bugs ?Jul 05 13:47
oiaohmAV has a place on mail servers for cleaning out junk.Jul 05 13:47
oiaohmSpagCode: how many of those bugs exploitable.Jul 05 13:47
ThistleWebluckily it's Microsoft we're talking about here, so "doing too good of a job" is never gonna be an issue lolJul 05 13:47
oiaohmYou think Windows ships bugless.Jul 05 13:48
ThistleWebhow many are critical?Jul 05 13:48
SpagCodeprobably many, not to mention the many that may have yet to be detected.Jul 05 13:48
oiaohmUbuntu when you take in the number of applications those 60000 bugs cover its not many per application.Jul 05 13:48
ThistleWeblook at your windows update descriptions, "this may allow remote users to execute code on your machine....."Jul 05 13:48
SpagCodeIf you can have that many bugs how many buffer overflowes and memory leaks dont they know about.Jul 05 13:48
oiaohmAlso does not help that wine has 4000+ bugs alone not exploitable.Jul 05 13:49
oiaohmJust don't run things.Jul 05 13:49
oiaohmHow many are missing feature bugs SpagCodeJul 05 13:50
SpagCodehaving that many bugs at all is unacceptable, what does that say for pear review, quality assurance, and every line of code looked at by "many eyes".Jul 05 13:50
oiaohmWhen you start breaking the numbers down you find there are not that many bugs.Jul 05 13:50
oiaohmWrong SpagCodeJul 05 13:50
ThistleWebone problem microsoft have is the monoculture, peeps know a windows user has apps like Windows Explorer installed, so writing viruses to exploit holes in that will get all windows users who have not patchedJul 05 13:50
SpagCodeif the "many eyes" cant find the bugs, how are they going to find backdoors, and exploits ?Jul 05 13:50
oiaohmFinding the bugs is one thing.Jul 05 13:51
oiaohmFixing them is another.Jul 05 13:51
SpagCodeand that number is getting larger not smaller, and fast too.Jul 05 13:51
oiaohmTo be expected.Jul 05 13:51
oiaohmMore users more features they want.Jul 05 13:51
oiaohmMore things they want to work.Jul 05 13:52
ThistleWebboth microsoft and apple have stock prices, company preception etc to manage too, which is why they tend to play down stuff, and announce a flaw / exploit (called a bug) when they have a fix, and appear as the saviour on the IT media telling peeps to go updateJul 05 13:52
oiaohmThere is no link between security flaw numbers and bug numbers on open source software.Jul 05 13:52
ThistleWebthey have new versions of apps to sell, which means managing paid manpower to holding features back for the next version, or fixing annoying bugsJul 05 13:53
oiaohmBugs get sorted SpagCode.   Possiable secuirty flaws go to first on list to be looked at with Ubuntu.Jul 05 13:53
ThistleWebFOSS stuff is mostly free of cost, so there's no need for that extra layerJul 05 13:53
oiaohmAnything that is just a missing feature is getting left.Jul 05 13:53
oiaohmThe numbers of wanted features are growing at a insane rate.Jul 05 13:54
SpagCodeyou dont know that, if you say you cant fix the bugs, you dont know why or how they occur or if they post a security risk, your just guessing that the broken bit is not broken in an exploiatable way .Jul 05 13:54
oiaohmLOL SpagCodeJul 05 13:54
oiaohmThere are particular things required to create a secuirty flaw.Jul 05 13:54
SpagCodeBugs are NOT getting sorted, the bug list has trippled in the past few months, it was 20k bugs  a few months ago.Jul 05 13:55
oiaohmThey are SpagCodeJul 05 13:55
oiaohmOne of the biggest duplicate bugs in there is pulseaudio.Jul 05 13:56
SpagCodeyou may think that is ok, but most would read that as systemic and major problems.Jul 05 13:56
oiaohmAnd I don't use pulseaudio.Jul 05 13:56
oiaohmWonder why.Jul 05 13:56
ThistleWebthere's also a difference between someone paid to sit in a chair and code 9-5 and someone who wants to code on a project because they love it, and love making it better, love being part of the community around that project, and the friends they have in IRC etc It makes them pay more attention to their final output, as a matter of prideJul 05 13:56
ThistleWeboften the paid devs employed by companies like M$ have no stake in the stuff the doJul 05 13:57
ThistleWebthey get a wageJul 05 13:57
ThistleWebif it goes out with bugs, that's cool, it keeps them employed during the support phaseJul 05 13:57
oiaohmSpagCode: I said there was no link between number of bugs and secuirty flaws.Jul 05 13:57
oiaohmI did not say that having massive numbers of missing features driving users nuts was good.Jul 05 13:58
SpagCodesure, i understand pride thats why im amazed at some of the code that passes for quaility in FOSS.Jul 05 13:58
ThistleWebSpagCode: lmaoJul 05 13:58
ThistleWebyou really are clueless ain't yaJul 05 13:58
ThistleWebeither that or here to entertain usJul 05 13:59
oiaohmYou are aware that buffer overflows should be impossiable to happen SpagCode.Jul 05 13:59
oiaohmAnd should have been impossiable for the last 20 years.Jul 05 13:59
SpagCodeno, its ok, 60,000 bugs is FINE, :DJul 05 13:59
ThistleWeb60,000 with how many dupes?Jul 05 14:00
oiaohmBufferoverflows can be made not functional by the complier suporting particular things.Jul 05 14:00
ThistleWebhow many of these have been fixed, and only one dupe is marked as fixed, while the rest are left outJul 05 14:00
oiaohmMS has used crappy compliers and lot of distributions don't enable protection from buffer overflows.Jul 05 14:01
ThistleWebas oiaohm has been pointing out a bug is not the same as a security exploitJul 05 14:01
oiaohmSo any attack that is using a buffer overflow is pure incompetents.Jul 05 14:01
oiaohmI am not nice about a lot of distrobutions.Jul 05 14:02
oiaohm60 000 open bugs is not fine.   But does not have to be a secuirty problem.Jul 05 14:02
oiaohmLot of those bugs also have come from Intel driver issues.Jul 05 14:03
oiaohmSimply the driver not working with particular cards.Jul 05 14:03
ThistleWebout of curiosity, how many bugs does any version of windows or osx have? Bare in mind neither Microsoft or Apple make that publicJul 05 14:03
oiaohmOr terminting when running particular applications.Jul 05 14:03
oiaohmNot exposing a single secuirty flaw in the process.Jul 05 14:03
ThistleWebthey like to play saviour at update timeJul 05 14:04
oiaohmosx you get a clearer idea by running code auditing tools on darwin.Jul 05 14:04
oiaohmMS I could find out if I wanted to sign a MS NDA>Jul 05 14:04
oiaohmIts just like the idea that windows souce code cannot be accessed.Jul 05 14:05
oiaohmIt can be by signing a NDA with MS.Jul 05 14:05
ThistleWebMicrosoft also like to compare bugs / flaws / exploits on Windows (excluding a lot of stuff) against a full Ubuntu distro including everything from firefox to tomboyJul 05 14:05
ThistleWebanything they do announce is the usual stacked deck of FUDJul 05 14:06
oiaohm  I also find it funny.Jul 05 14:08
oiaohmUbuntu has not even reached windows 2000 number of bugs yet.Jul 05 14:08
oiaohmWhen it first shiped.Jul 05 14:08
oiaohmAnd that was a lot smaller product SpagCodeJul 05 14:09
SpagCodehow do you know how many they (MS has ?Jul 05 14:09
oiaohmHadJul 05 14:09
oiaohmDocuments have leaked at different times SpagCodeJul 05 14:10
oiaohmWe have no current numbers.Jul 05 14:10
oiaohmIt would be nice if there was another information leak.Jul 05 14:11
ThistleWebfigures released by both apple and microsoft have been filtered by the marketing departmentJul 05 14:11
ThistleWebthey need to keep people buying stuffJul 05 14:11
oiaohmNormal takes some form of court case to get the real numbers at one point of time out of MS or AppleJul 05 14:11
ThistleWebwhile also sound "reasonably" accurate in security advice for their customersJul 05 14:12
SpagCodeso guess and hearsay,, ok.Jul 05 14:12
oiaohmBasically at least with open source you know how many.Jul 05 14:12
oiaohmAnd can make selection on what software you should be using by the numbers of issues around them.Jul 05 14:12
ThistleWebthey cant afford a free "hobbyist" OS to trump them on security, and expect peeps to keep coughing up $100's on their stuffJul 05 14:13
oiaohmAnd what the issues are.Jul 05 14:13
oiaohmMS also invented the art of turning a bug into a feature.Jul 05 14:13
ThistleWebnot only that, but with FOSS you have multiple layers of peeps looking at stuff and fixing itJul 05 14:13
ThistleWeba bug in firefox could be spotted by the mozilla devs, or a dev for one of the distrosJul 05 14:14
SpagCodeInstaller doesn't recognise SATA disks as primary. "Jul 05 14:14
SpagCodeand yet you still have problems like that and worse.Jul 05 14:14
ThistleWebit gets patched, the patch sent upstream, and it gets spread around the disrtos as well as the core firefox product itselfJul 05 14:14
oiaohmSo you have to install a bios update SpagCodeJul 05 14:14
oiaohmTo install windows.Jul 05 14:14
oiaohmYes.Jul 05 14:14
oiaohmThat is one of the best of turning a bug into a feature.Jul 05 14:15
oiaohmOpps we got processing of ACPI tables wrong.Jul 05 14:15
oiaohmSell OS as requiring a BIOS update.Jul 05 14:15
oiaohmYes its happened many times with MS SpagCodeJul 05 14:15
ThistleWeba lot of M$ problems also stem from continually moving the goalpoasts to avoid any interoperability with non-Windows OS's and keep users locked inJul 05 14:16
oiaohmPoor documentation as well.Jul 05 14:16
ThistleWebkeep changing .doc with each new officeJul 05 14:16
oiaohmSamba case in the EU.Jul 05 14:16
ThistleWebbut it's still all .docJul 05 14:16
oiaohmIt was sad.Jul 05 14:16
ThistleWebyepJul 05 14:16
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oiaohmMS handed over all there networking documentation.Jul 05 14:16
oiaohmTurned out basically none of it worked.Jul 05 14:16
ThistleWebas soon as a project gets close to being interoperable, M$ need to move the goalposts and introduce new bugs in the processJul 05 14:17
oiaohmThat was not MS moving the goalpost.Jul 05 14:17
oiaohmIt turned out MS has given money to samba to expand there test case system.Jul 05 14:17
ThistleWebsorry, we were on 2 different projects thereJul 05 14:18
oiaohmReason MS networking did not even have a test system.Jul 05 14:18
SpagCodeThats  usually called progress, as something gains more function and features that product changes.Jul 05 14:18
oiaohmTo prevent bugs sneeking it.Jul 05 14:18
SpagCodeand there are always technology leaders, and followers.Jul 05 14:18
oiaohmSo that two different versions of windows can talk to each other over a network is pot luck SpagCodeJul 05 14:18
ThistleWebdocuments created by one version of office need to be converted in another, from .doc to .docJul 05 14:19
oiaohmAlso thinking networking code is one of your largest exposed areas.Jul 05 14:19
oiaohmIts where you should have the most testcasing.Jul 05 14:19
oiaohmMS Quality controls have been really sad.Jul 05 14:20
SpagCodeso what, and different versions of windows can and do easily talk to each other on a network, again as you well know.Jul 05 14:20
SpagCodeas has FOSS's QA as well,Jul 05 14:20
oiaohm2000 and XP have many cases where 1 or the other will crash if you use particular sections of there network stack.Jul 05 14:20
oiaohmXP and Vista have the same.Jul 05 14:20
ThistleWebahh, the whole leaders debate huh? from a company who inovates nothing, they BUY all their stuff, repackage it, cludge it up so it's M$ only then put it outJul 05 14:20
oiaohmThere OS's are basically incompadible with each other.Jul 05 14:21
ThistleWebthey just caught up with FF2 or Opera 8 in IE8, while FF3.5 was just released, and Opera 10 is on the wayJul 05 14:21
SpagCodelike FOSS did with Unix, to get Linux OK, :)Jul 05 14:21
oiaohmJust by luck enough common code between them and that is what users use the most that users have not worked out how bad it is.Jul 05 14:22
oiaohmIts like the good one recenty with XP.Jul 05 14:22
oiaohmA invlaid 8.3 file name on a long filename file on fat causes XP to bluescreen.Jul 05 14:23
ThistleWebthe TCPIP stack was a unix creation, it's implemented pure in Linux, it's been cludged by Micrsosoft as part of their usual vendor lockin bullshitJul 05 14:23
oiaohmTo be correct not really invalid.Jul 05 14:23
oiaohmA 8.3 file name filed with nulls.   That should not be processed.Jul 05 14:23
oiaohmUnix and Linux are quite network compadible with each other SpagCodeJul 05 14:24
oiaohmNFS file shares on Unix work perfectly in Linux and vice viser.Jul 05 14:25
ThistleWebwhen you have engineers trying to find better, more efficient ways of doing something, and marketing peeps saying "noooooooooo, we need that to only work with OUR stuff" you're always gonna have issuesJul 05 14:25
oiaohmMaking network compadiblity with Windows is hard.Jul 05 14:25
ThistleWebin the FOSS world, it's ALL about interoperability, they understand they are PART of a solution, not the whole solution, and that it's in EVERYBODYS best interests if they work well together for the end usersJul 05 14:26
oiaohmMaking Linux, BSD, Unix's and OS X all play nice on a network is fairly straight forward.Jul 05 14:26
SpagCodenot built many MS networks have you ? :) its trivial, and its also faltless, between all OS's.Jul 05 14:26
ThistleWebSpagCode: lmaoJul 05 14:26
oiaohmLOLJul 05 14:26
oiaohmYou really have not read the samba test cases.Jul 05 14:27
SpagCodewell by anyone who knows what they are doing, :)Jul 05 14:27
oiaohmIt documents flaw after flaw and how to make different windows versions trigger them.Jul 05 14:27
oiaohmResulting in machine crashes.Jul 05 14:27
oiaohmOnly appears faultless.Jul 05 14:27
oiaohmBecause the common used sections are fine.Jul 05 14:28
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SpagCodeonly appears, and works 100% of the time, is all users want or care about.Jul 05 14:28
oiaohmThere is a big difference between Only appears Faultless and is faltess.Jul 05 14:28
oiaohmDoes not work 100 percent of the time.Jul 05 14:28
oiaohmIt is about 99 percent.Jul 05 14:29
SpagCodewell it does, and most networks on the planet are MS windows based and mixed,Jul 05 14:29
oiaohmIt does not do in large super computers.Jul 05 14:30
oiaohmThat 1 percent would cause a lot of down time.Jul 05 14:30
SpagCodesounds like a bit of goalpost moving from you now.Jul 05 14:30
oiaohmlarge networks also upgrade all there windows machines at once to the same version.Jul 05 14:31
oiaohmTo avoid the glitches too.Jul 05 14:31
ThistleWebyep, and pay out a hefty fee for the privJul 05 14:31
ThistleWebin another round of licencesJul 05 14:31
ThistleWebwhich in this ecconomy could easily mean some peeps being laid off to pay for new Windows licencesJul 05 14:32
SpagCodeno for upgrades you dontJul 05 14:32
oiaohmDo you know the man power that sucks up SpagCodeJul 05 14:32
oiaohmIts not the licence cost alone here.Jul 05 14:32
oiaohmGradual migrations do have lower over all costs.Jul 05 14:33
oiaohmIf you can do them and depend on everything staying working.Jul 05 14:33
oiaohmEven if the licence cost does not change at all.Jul 05 14:33
ThistleWebalso there's an honesty in it, like having to buy Vista licences to run XP, so Microsoft can add your "vista love" to the tallyJul 05 14:34
ThistleWebafter all, like they keep telling us, everyone loves vistaJul 05 14:35
ThistleWebapparentlyJul 05 14:35
oiaohmLot business in the current time could be forced to fire staff to upgrade to Windows 7Jul 05 14:35
oiaohmIf its network intergration is not perfect.Jul 05 14:35
oiaohmBig issue with updating everythign at once.  The normal business system admins have to normally employ out side help.Jul 05 14:36
ThistleWebwhich adds to the TOCJul 05 14:36
oiaohmGradual migration the normal system admin can do it.Jul 05 14:36
oiaohmGradual migrations are used in supers as well so the system can remain processing.Jul 05 14:37
SpagCodenormal businesses already use outside  help for thier IT, unless they are big enough to have their IT department.Jul 05 14:37
SpagCodeOr big enough to have their own IT company.Jul 05 14:37
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[davidgerard] I should not feel like this after a sober night of not drinking and going to bed and sleep at reasonable times.Jul 05 14:38
oiaohmHow many IT staff does it take to migrate a 20 000 machine Linux supper to a new version SpagCodeJul 05 14:38
oiaohmThe answer is 1.Jul 05 14:38
SpagCodeIknow that, so what ?Jul 05 14:39
oiaohmSo you say a normal business cannot afford 1 staff member with IT skills.Jul 05 14:39
oiaohmBecause that is what the total staff required to do a gradual migration is.Jul 05 14:40
SpagCodesmall business generally dont have a full time IT guy, its usually outsourced, thats 10 to mabey 30 or so employees.Jul 05 14:40
SpagCodemost businesses focus on their core business and outsource most other functions, like insurance, book keeping, IT, security, delivery and so on.Jul 05 14:41
oiaohmNext question for the Linux migration to new version does the IT officer even have to be in the same building.Jul 05 14:41
oiaohmAs the machines being updated.Jul 05 14:41
SpagCodeonce again I feel you've lived quite a sheltered life.Jul 05 14:41
oiaohmAnswer no they don't.Jul 05 14:41
oiaohmSo update outsourced for small business there is a good chance the IT office would not even have to come onto site.Jul 05 14:42
oiaohmNo matter what the windows update system is costing.Jul 05 14:42
oiaohmNo a single business not effected.Jul 05 14:43
SpagCodeI would really love to want to care, but no one does, most small business dont upgrade all at once, its usually top down or when equipment is replaced.Jul 05 14:43
SpagCodeNor is cost even a consideration, its a very small percentage of their normal running costs and even a small percentage of the cost of the computer system.Jul 05 14:43
ThistleWebwhen your looking at your books to find ways to cut costs and keep peeps employed, you careJul 05 14:43
SpagCodeand probably over time much less than the cost of the electricity and internet it connects too.Jul 05 14:44
oiaohmAnd it the small businesses who suffer the most with the bugsJul 05 14:44
ThistleWebin a recession cost is the number one priorityJul 05 14:44
ThistleWebsaving a little here and there can mean the difference between staying in business or notJul 05 14:44
ThistleWebor having to let staff go or notJul 05 14:45
ThistleWebthe margins get tighterJul 05 14:45
oiaohmSoftware is the largest cost of a computer SpagCodeJul 05 14:45
ThistleWebyep, when an Ultimate edition of an OS (without any additional software costs) is like $300 on top of the hardware, you have to wonderJul 05 14:46
oiaohmBusiness are also looking at ways to reduce the power usage of there clients.Jul 05 14:46
wallclimberSpagCode is actually "Mutex", who keeps coming back under different names since Roy banned him.Jul 05 14:46
ThistleWebthen you have your office costs of a few hundred dollarsJul 05 14:47
ThistleWebthat's for EVERY desktopJul 05 14:47
ThistleWebyou have 100 pc, sthat's 100x that priceJul 05 14:47
oiaohmSpagCode So far you have not put up one arugment that does not have holes big enough to push the earth through.Jul 05 14:48
ThistleWeball to get you to where you'd be with a free Linux distro installJul 05 14:48
ThistleWebthe higher number of PCs you need to use, the more that cost increasesJul 05 14:49
oiaohmNot exactly.Jul 05 14:49
ThistleWebin software alone, the hardware will cost the same regardless of OSJul 05 14:49
oiaohmMS volume disconts.Jul 05 14:49
ThistleWebyes, volume licences, I knowJul 05 14:49
oiaohmThere are particular poitns where it flatlines.Jul 05 14:49
oiaohmAnother 1000 licences here or there make no difference to cost due to MS discounts.Jul 05 14:50
ThistleWebthe point is that you need to pay a fee for each PC to run that softwareJul 05 14:50
oiaohmAnother place small businesses miss out.Jul 05 14:50
ThistleWebnot to mention all the hassle with serial numbers etcJul 05 14:50
ThistleWebregestrationJul 05 14:51
ThistleWebauthenticationJul 05 14:51
oiaohmBasically small businesses are getting kicked in teeth over and over again by MS.Jul 05 14:51
oiaohmAnd its part of the reason why they cannot compete with big business fairly.Jul 05 14:51
ThistleWebpotential DRM issues from the software phoning home and telling you it's not gonna install..........all because you replaced a failed HD and it thinks it;s a new pcJul 05 14:51
oiaohmSpagCode: do you have any other lines of agruements that you think have a sporting chance of not being destroyed due to defective logic.Jul 05 14:52
ThistleWebthey keep getting told "you need Word, Excel etc to be compatible with all your partners"Jul 05 14:52
ThistleWebbasicly you need to be part of the gang to be taken seriously, and that costs a lotta moneyJul 05 14:53
ThistleWeb"you need to use Windows and IE to view this website"Jul 05 14:54
SpagCodeoimohm ofcourse your dead right, and thats exactly why GNU/Linux is doing so well in the computer world, and on the desktop, thats why its the defacto industry standard !!, oh wait.Jul 05 14:54
oiaohmLOLJul 05 14:54
ThistleWeblolJul 05 14:55
oiaohmGNU Linux had no interest at all in the desktop market for the first 10 years of its life.Jul 05 14:55
ThistleWebthe word "defacto" was interesting there, while FOSS use real standards, Microsoft use defacto onesJul 05 14:55
oiaohmThen found out that the design of desktop interfaces from the UNIX world did not work at all.Jul 05 14:55
ThistleWebthey like to try and define what proprietary patented standards people can use, and have to pay them for, not to mention reverse engineeringJul 05 14:56
oiaohmDue to major defects in X11 implementation.Jul 05 14:56
wallclimberMutex/SpagCode will just run the conversation in endless circles...Jul 05 14:56
oiaohmSo Linux having any market share is a mircale and is another sign that MS suxs.Jul 05 14:56
ThistleWebwallclimber: I got that idea a while back, I'm running out of interest in respondingJul 05 14:56
oiaohmAlso thinking X11 was always known as the most bloated memory usaging envorment for doing desktops.Jul 05 14:57
SpagCodea standard is what everyone mostly use, namely a defacto standard, but defacto can be ratified officially or not or new standards based on that can be developed.Jul 05 14:57
oiaohmUntil vista took its crown.Jul 05 14:57
SpagCodebut they dont have to be used, you can use it or not or use another standard. depending on your target marketJul 05 14:57
wallclimberI always find the conversations interesting and informative, because the trolls are generally trouncedJul 05 14:57
oiaohmDefecto standards exist due to the simple lack of competition.Jul 05 14:57
ThistleWebyep, they proved that they can "rattify" standards that nobody accepts woth OOXMLJul 05 14:58
wallclimberbut it does become tedious after a whileJul 05 14:58
oiaohmAnd Linux was not competing.Jul 05 14:58
ThistleWeball it takes is a company willing to corruptJul 05 14:58
oiaohmUnix world had no interesting.Jul 05 14:58
oiaohmApple is about the only ones bothered competing with MS.Jul 05 14:58
oiaohmBut on over priced hardware.Jul 05 14:58
oiaohmSo MS being dominate is predictable.Jul 05 14:58
SpagCodedefacto standards usually occur from innovation, like VHS video'sJul 05 14:59
oiaohmIt really does not even mean anything.Jul 05 14:59
oiaohmUnix was a defecto standard along before MS was.Jul 05 14:59
oiaohmDefacto standards never last the test of time.Jul 05 14:59
oiaohmSimple fact anything you say its a Defacto standard will not last.Jul 05 15:00
oiaohmA true standard on the other hand can last centories.Jul 05 15:01
ThistleWebfor me, a standrad that's well documented, cross platform and patent free will always stand higher than a patented, proprietary, undocumented one built to lock people into one single vendorJul 05 15:02
oiaohmVHS will be replaced by Harddrive recording and that will be replaced by something else.Jul 05 15:02
oiaohmVHS was nothing more than a temp blip.Jul 05 15:02
SpagCodeyou can argue about that all you like with yourself, Idont see what its got to do with anything.Jul 05 15:02
ThistleWebthats why the ISO (pre-OOXML) existsJul 05 15:02
oiaohmSo you have run out of arguments SpagCodeJul 05 15:02
oiaohmIt takes a lot of work to make a desktop envorment good enough to do what users need and want to do.Jul 05 15:03
wallclimberSpagCode/Mutex, you don't "see" because of those "innovative" troll-blinders you're wearingJul 05 15:04
SpagCodeno i just give up and know you dont understand what a defacto standard is,Jul 05 15:04
oiaohmThe big question is where the good enough line is.Jul 05 15:04
oiaohmI know a defecto standard in high and servers was Unix.Jul 05 15:05
oiaohmThese days the defacto Standard is Linux.Jul 05 15:05
ThistleWebit's interesting to see Microsoft are so sure of being the leaders in any area that they have to hobble the competition with lawsuits etc and deny the customers choice so all they see is MicrosoftJul 05 15:05
oiaohmAnd in another 15 years it could be something else SpagCodeJul 05 15:05
oiaohmThe desktop is no different.Jul 05 15:05
ThistleWeba defacto standard is something where the product has so much of the market shareJul 05 15:05
oiaohmBeing a defacto standard does not make something last.Jul 05 15:06
ThistleWebit wasn't agreed on by anyone, it's by value of market shareJul 05 15:06
SpagCode"in practice but not necessarily ordained by law"Jul 05 15:06
oiaohmExactly what does being a defecto standard have on long term future.Jul 05 15:06
ThistleWebyou could say the defacto standard fpr servers is unix / linuxJul 05 15:07
ThistleWebthe differnce is that unix / linux follows REAL standards tooJul 05 15:07
oiaohmOnly one thing defecto standard in existance.Jul 05 15:07
oiaohmNothing better has turned up yet.Jul 05 15:07
SpagCodeabout as much as a approved standard from a standards body,Jul 05 15:07
SpagCodevery littleJul 05 15:07
oiaohmReal standards maintain something important.Jul 05 15:08
ThistleWebwell, Microsoft proved that the ISO can be boughtJul 05 15:08
ThistleWebby buying themJul 05 15:08
oiaohmCompadiblity in the future.Jul 05 15:08
oiaohmdue to stable way of doing that feature.Jul 05 15:08
ThistleWebbut that aside, ISO standards are agreed cross platform for everyone to work withJul 05 15:08
oiaohmTCP/IP is a really old standard.Jul 05 15:08
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SpagCodeyes, just like the centronics standard does right :DJul 05 15:09
ThistleWebnot one vendor shoving it down peeps throatsJul 05 15:09
oiaohmYou can still get interfaces for that SpagCodeJul 05 15:09
ThistleWebgetting the stamp of approval to take to their corporate and govt customers, and have no intention of implementing itJul 05 15:09
SpagCodeand thats a defacto standard too !!Jul 05 15:10
oiaohmNo centronics was a offical standard.Jul 05 15:10
ThistleWeball to avoid them moving to a proper standard, in other words it's a swindleJul 05 15:10
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oiaohmAll hardware interfaces use by many companies are done as offical standards to avoid incompaiblity issues.Jul 05 15:11
oiaohmSo leading to long term compadiblity.Jul 05 15:11
SpagCodewhat about s100 bus or ISA buss for that matter, or 5 and quarter double density floppies. ?Jul 05 15:11
oiaohmyou still use s100 and ISA buses in some hardware today.Jul 05 15:11
SpagCodeor BaudoJul 05 15:11
SpagCodeor Murry code standard ?Jul 05 15:12
oiaohm  Still usedJul 05 15:13
SpagCodeand they started as defacto standards,Jul 05 15:13
oiaohmIn some ham radio circlesJul 05 15:13
SpagCodeI know about 5-bit baudot code,Jul 05 15:14
oiaohmSome of those old well documented standards are also fun to make cracking encryption harder.Jul 05 15:15
SpagCodeyes, that is trueJul 05 15:16
oiaohm5 1/2 floppy disappearing due to the fact the design is not standing up to the test of time.Jul 05 15:16
SpagCodein fact the study of the teleprinter and puncher technology that used teh punched tape and muray baaudot code is a great lesson is mechanical computer systems.Jul 05 15:17
oiaohmNot all true standards last.Jul 05 15:17
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SpagCodeeach sections is an analogue of a section of a digital computer.Jul 05 15:17
oiaohmBut being a true standard gives something a chance of a secound life.Jul 05 15:17
oiaohmAnd come back in a different form.Jul 05 15:17
SpagCodeofcourse many standards become obsoleteJul 05 15:18
oiaohmWhere just being defacto it can just over time disappear into nothing ness.Jul 05 15:18
oiaohmLayout of sectors on floppies did not change when 5 1/2 become 3 1/4Jul 05 15:19
oiaohmEven from the floppies before 5 1/2 had the same kind of layout.Jul 05 15:19
SpagCodeas can normal standards, they can and do fall into disuse, and are eventually forgotten.Jul 05 15:19
oiaohmDefacto standard can be forgoten faster.Jul 05 15:20
oiaohmRemember zip disks.Jul 05 15:20
oiaohmThey were a defacto standard in backups for a while.Jul 05 15:21
oiaohmWhat is left in current day tech of Zip disks.Jul 05 15:21
oiaohmA true standard normally stays around in some form.Jul 05 15:22
SpagCodethey are stil in quite common usage,Jul 05 15:22
oiaohmLike floppies are going to be with us for a while hidding on boot cdrom.Jul 05 15:22
ThistleWeba true standard will be properly documented for peeps to use and implement it as long as they want toJul 05 15:24
oiaohmWhere I am they are not used at all any more SpagCodeJul 05 15:25
oiaohmOrdering them is basically impossiable.Jul 05 15:25
oiaohmDVD killed them larger storage cheaper drive and more accessable.   There is no documentation for anyone to clone the zip drives.Jul 05 15:27
oiaohmSo the zip drives are over priced and are dieing out.Jul 05 15:27
oiaohmDefecto standard status is not going to save zip drives from going the way of the dodo.Jul 05 15:28
ThistleWebone of the up's and downs of FOSS projects is that they exist as long as someone is willing to maintain them, so it's impossible for any vendor to kill it to force peeps to buy a new product, but it can be a precarious existence for small projects. On the other hand it's all open, so anyone can pick up the batton at any time and bring it back to lifeJul 05 15:28
oiaohmAs long as the project has not disappeared from access.Jul 05 15:28
ThistleWebtrueJul 05 15:28
oiaohmPercentage of FOSS projects disappear for ever.Jul 05 15:28
ThistleWebon that note, I've aksed a few podcasts to appeal for help for BasketJul 05 15:29
oiaohmBasket is in the KDE world.Jul 05 15:30
ThistleWebwhich is another reason companies like Microsoft will NEVER open source their stuffJul 05 15:30
oiaohmThey do maintain long term stores.Jul 05 15:30
ThistleWebif XP was FOSS, they'd have a hellava harder time trying to force peeps to hand over cash for vistaJul 05 15:30
oiaohmSections of the FOSS world are more protected from disapearing.Jul 05 15:30
ThistleWebyep, some FOSS are better protected than others, basket is not bad there, being part of a much larger KDE familyJul 05 15:31
oiaohmMS throws around defecto standard so much as the reason why they cannot die its so fun.Jul 05 15:31
oiaohmNo company is protected from destruction.Jul 05 15:31
oiaohmEven FOSS projects are not above destruction from time to time.Jul 05 15:32
ThistleWebthe whole "while stocks last" angle is a joke too, with Windows you're buying a CD (or a preinstalled system) and a peice of paper with a generated number on itJul 05 15:32
oiaohmXP when it ends of Life will be interesting.Jul 05 15:33
ThistleWeb"new stock" is a new generated numberJul 05 15:33
ThistleWebthats itJul 05 15:33
oiaohmWill MS just turn off activation and forget about it.Jul 05 15:33
ThistleWebthe current EOL date will be extended furtherJul 05 15:33
oiaohmAll MS products have had fake hardware limits built in to make sure they end of life.Jul 05 15:34
oiaohmEnd of usable life.Jul 05 15:34
ThistleWebspecially if the reports of it "requiring the same hardware as vista" are close to being trueJul 05 15:34
ThistleWebthey'll need to for netbooksJul 05 15:34
oiaohmNetbooks caught MS.Jul 05 15:34
oiaohmThey are basically 8 year old hardware.Jul 05 15:34
oiaohmRepackaged.Jul 05 15:35
ThistleWebwhen you're OS is all binary blobs, you're reliant on companies making compatible binary blobs, so when third parties stop making drivers for XP, it forces peeps to cough upJul 05 15:35
ThistleWebeven if you do have access to the code making the blobs, you dont have the rights to redistribute to keep it aliveJul 05 15:36
ThistleWebthats the poiint of proprietary software, they control the kill switchJul 05 15:37
ThistleWeband use it to force people to pay them more moneyJul 05 15:37
SpagCodeI have not had to upgrade my hardware for the past 9 years apart from hardware failures, (1 mobo and 1 PS) but ive updraded my software 2 times from xpJul 05 15:37
oiaohmExactly XP works pefectly well on 9 year old hardware.Jul 05 15:38
oiaohmVista and Windows 7 no so much.Jul 05 15:38
oiaohmEven Linux's are starting to work well on 9 year old hardware.Jul 05 15:38
ThistleWebwindows has been designed to sell new hardwareJul 05 15:38
ThistleWebit always has, only vista went out of controlJul 05 15:38
ThistleWeband got the backlashJul 05 15:38
oiaohmThe hardware cycle snaped with netbooks.Jul 05 15:38
ThistleWebnot to mention the recession hit at the same time, and netbooks arrivedJul 05 15:39
SpagCodeno the 2 upgrades I did was from xp to vista, and vista to win 7 no problems all hardware and software worked and transfered flawlesslyJul 05 15:39
oiaohmHow much ram SpagCodeJul 05 15:39
ThistleWeball of that just exaggerated how peeps rejected vistaJul 05 15:39
oiaohmI guess you are not using 2000 general ram levels.Jul 05 15:40
SpagCode2gig on one and 3g on my old compac m2000 laptop.Jul 05 15:40
oiaohmThat is large than 2000 general ram levels.Jul 05 15:40
ThistleWebwhen you have so much of the market sewn up to the point that peeps dont know anything but your products and usually fork out for upgrades without thinking too much......and THEY reject your new OS, you have a REAL doozy on your handsJul 05 15:40
SpagCodeyes, rejected Vista at 200 million sold and selling at the rate of 20 mill a month.Jul 05 15:41
oiaohmMost of those numbers are spin.Jul 05 15:41
ThistleWebhow many of those sales are actually running vista?Jul 05 15:41
ThistleWebmost are downdragesJul 05 15:41
SpagCodemost,Jul 05 15:41
ThistleWebor preinstalls where the customer has a choice of vixta, vista, vista, vista or vista, when all they came for was a new pcJul 05 15:41
oiaohmEven hp admited that all the XP machines they sold after Vista release were downgrades.Jul 05 15:41
SpagCodeif not all, I dont know a single person taking up a downgrade.Jul 05 15:41
oiaohmSO a large ammount of that number is not even Vista.Jul 05 15:42
ThistleWebaround 80% of windows sales come from OEM salesJul 05 15:42
oiaohmMain reason HP could get Vista licences cheeper than XP ones.Jul 05 15:42
ThistleWebwhere the customer has no choiceJul 05 15:42
SpagCodeeven if its half and its far more its still far more than ubuntu's 10 mill or so in total,Jul 05 15:42
oiaohmWhat is with you and thinking market share.Jul 05 15:42
oiaohmIts not something that worries me at this stage.Jul 05 15:43
ThistleWebthat'd be the same ubuntu that Microsoft bully or bribe OEMs not to sellJul 05 15:43
ThistleWebsame with partenrsJul 05 15:43
oiaohmThat Linux has any market share with using a kernel that was not designed for desktop usage is a miricale.Jul 05 15:43
oiaohmLike no real-time support to make audio and video system work smooth.Jul 05 15:44
ThistleWeb"you can sell ubuntu machines, but only on a couple of models, and tuck them away somewhere on the website, make sure that all the default options are windows, and that you recomend windows, or you'll be sorry"Jul 05 15:44
oiaohmNo kernel mode switching so in case of kernel problems the machine just frease solid.Jul 05 15:44
oiaohmGiving user no message.Jul 05 15:44
oiaohmThis is a pure desktop user abusive interface.Jul 05 15:44
ThistleWebmake customers work to find them, and limit them to certain regionsJul 05 15:45
oiaohmThen 10 million copies of that sold SpagCode?Jul 05 15:45
oiaohmWhat does that really say.Jul 05 15:45
oiaohmThere are 10 million suxers out there.Jul 05 15:45
ThistleWeboh, yeah, and don't market the fact that you sell linux, only market windowsJul 05 15:45
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ThistleWebgiven that type of abuse, it's a wonder they sell as amany as they doJul 05 15:45
ThistleWebthis is not a product selling side by side on popularityJul 05 15:46
ThistleWebcompeting on meritJul 05 15:46
ThistleWebMicrosoft like to claim they are responding to their customers, and giving them what they want. They want XP, they are told "you can have Vista"Jul 05 15:47
ThistleWebthey like to claim people are choocing to buy Windows, when they make sure that it's the only option they seeJul 05 15:47
oiaohmSpagCode: is not the Linux kernel abuse to desktop users by its current design.Jul 05 15:47
oiaohmThat design is changing make it more desktop friendly.Jul 05 15:48
oiaohmWhat is the windows Blue screen of death.Jul 05 15:48
ThistleWebpeeps buy a new PC, they dont buy a new windows.....well they do, but since it's included in the price they dont know thatJul 05 15:48
oiaohmKernel level mode switching so you are not left hanging.Jul 05 15:48
oiaohmAnd so debuging information can be extracted from crash defects.Jul 05 15:48
oiaohmSimple lack of kernel mode switch is a sign a kernel is not built for desktop.Jul 05 15:49
oiaohmAbout the only thing more abuse as a desktop OS than Linux was MS dos that MS managed to sell some how.Jul 05 15:50
oiaohmIt was able to be sold on the grounds that MS dos was cheep.Jul 05 15:51
ThistleWebI can see why some vendors are receptive to the M$ bullies though, apart from kickbacks. With Windows they can sell all sorts of addons to make it usefull and (reasoanbly) secure, like Office, anti-virus etc not to mention the fact that they will get repair jobs when it goes fubar, and eventually the customer will be back to buy a new PC when it's dead, not knowing a re-install would fix itJul 05 15:52
ThistleWebif vendors switched to linux, they dont need all that anti-malware stuff, and all the apps most peeps need are either preinstalled or in the reposJul 05 15:52
oiaohmGood part is the next wave of vendors will be displaced from the phone market.Jul 05 15:53
ThistleWebnot to mention it won't need repaired so much, nor slow to a crawl over time to the point of buying a new pcJul 05 15:53
oiaohmSo have no liking for MS at all.Jul 05 15:53
ThistleWebso it's actually in their interests to sell the customer on a flawed productJul 05 15:53
oiaohmSpagCode: don't both using the Ubuntu market share again its a pointless argument for the simple fact that Linux should not have the market share it does.Jul 05 15:54
ThistleWebif Linux wasn't so good, Microsoft wouldn't be targetting it so muchJul 05 15:55
oiaohmLinux is a threat.Jul 05 15:55
oiaohmIts not good yet.Jul 05 15:55
ThistleWebif it was as bad as they make out, they'd ignore itJul 05 15:55
oiaohmMS need to make linux get a bad name before it turns good.Jul 05 15:55
oiaohmMS knows the clock is ticking.Jul 05 15:56
ThistleWebyep, they're being asailed on all frontsJul 05 15:56
ThistleWeband winning none of themJul 05 15:56
oiaohmParticular list of kernel features will make lot of desktop defects disappear for good from Linux.Jul 05 15:56
oiaohmOne of the most intresting is the addtion of cuse that will allow closed source drivers to be released for Linux for most drivers .Jul 05 15:57
oiaohmWithout needing to be tied to any particular kernel version.Jul 05 15:57
ThistleWebI do find it cool that most devices just work when plugged into Linux, where Windows has to go find and install the driver, or ask for the CD that came with itJul 05 15:58
oiaohmStart of the rise of a kernel ready for desktop.  Including means to have third party drivers.Jul 05 15:58
ThistleWeband not having to reboot to apply updatesJul 05 15:58
oiaohmLinux guys are even upset about have to reboot to update kernel.Jul 05 15:59
ThistleWebya take these things for granted until you have to use a Windows pcJul 05 15:59
oiaohmAnd are trying to have a solution to prevent even that.Jul 05 15:59
oiaohmWhen Linux truly is desktop ready at kernel level MS will have a problem.Jul 05 15:59
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ThistleWebM$ rely on lawyers and lobbyists to ensure they dont have to compete on any technical levelJul 05 16:00
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oiaohmMS has lost control of the hardware market.Jul 05 16:01
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oiaohmLot of arm and mips device makers will wait for the kernel to complete.Jul 05 16:01
oiaohmFor the simple reason they have to.Jul 05 16:01
oiaohmLack of good third party opengl drivers on those processor types.Jul 05 16:01
oiaohmSo the open source ones have to work.Jul 05 16:02
oiaohmThe clock is ticking. about 6 to 9 months left.Jul 05 16:02
oiaohmThinking all the head start MS has had.  Linux should not even be able to catch them.Jul 05 16:03
ThistleWebexactlyJul 05 16:03
oiaohmProblem is once the Linux guys catch they will not be waiting around for MS to get there act in order.Jul 05 16:04
ThistleWebthey had the market in their hand, and through greed, stagnation, incompetence and corruption are losing itJul 05 16:04
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ThistleWebthey are company of the 90's who have had a longer run than they deserved through momentumJul 05 16:05
ThistleWebkarma is catching up with them thoughJul 05 16:06
oiaohmNot exactly.Jul 05 16:06
oiaohmkarma is not a factor when you have no real competition.Jul 05 16:06
oiaohmKarma will have larger and larger effects closer Linux gets to them.Jul 05 16:06
ThistleWebthey've brought a lot of stuff on themselvesJul 05 16:07
oiaohmWhat would not be a problem if they were the only item in town.Jul 05 16:07
wallclimberoiaohm, what do you define as "real competition"?Jul 05 16:07
oiaohmSomething that is forcing them on price and provides good enough usablity and does not abuse users by using it.Jul 05 16:08
oiaohmIt does not have to be Linux either.Jul 05 16:09
oiaohmCurrent Linux kernel is user abusive.Jul 05 16:09
wallclimberif it doesn't have to be linux, does it still need to be free and open?Jul 05 16:09
oiaohmNo.Jul 05 16:09
oiaohmWith true competition karma is important no matter the form.Jul 05 16:10
wallclimberit's funny, I've always felt abused when i used to use windows, but haven't felt that way sinceJul 05 16:10
wallclimberleaving windows behindJul 05 16:10
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wallclimberhow am i being abused?  not trying to be combative, just curiousJul 05 16:11
wallclimberoh well...just need to answer.Jul 05 16:13
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_Hicham_Hi schestowitzJul 05 16:37
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zer0c00li found it interesting :Bing is King :D 05 16:53
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twitterNews of the obvious variety.  GWB had no economic clue 05 17:24
twitterThe US is out of money, 05 17:24
trmanco 05 17:24
twitterand the dollar is not what it used to be, 05 17:24
twitterIran's move from the dollar for oil trade was very damaging to the dollar.Jul 05 17:25
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twitterwow, trmanco, that's some page.Jul 05 17:28
twitterI can imagine that a compiled version of an interpreted language might be about as fast or a little slower than any other compiled language, but never faster.Jul 05 17:30
twitterThat kind of favorable technical incompetence is a M$ hallmark.  I surprised to see Miguel parroting such fluff.Jul 05 17:31
trmanco:-)Jul 05 17:32
twitterI'm sorry that people had to deal with visual studio and Windows to find out.  Ick.Jul 05 17:35
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thenixedreportHello everyone.Jul 05 18:04
thenixedreportI have a question.Jul 05 18:04
thenixedreportLet's say I wanted to share something via BitTorrent.Jul 05 18:04
thenixedreportLegal content mind you.Jul 05 18:04
thenixedreportBut I want to do it in the most effective manner on my end.Jul 05 18:04
thenixedreportWould having virtual machines via VirtualBox on the same physical machine be effective or no?Jul 05 18:05
_Goblineh?  You will presumably be limited by your bandwidth though...Jul 05 18:06
_GoblinI'm not sure in the worth in a small swarm of having 1 seeder compared to more, when they are all originating from the same IP....Jul 05 18:07
_GoblinI suppose it depends at the end of the day if your peers turn off or turn into seeders..Jul 05 18:08
_Goblinunless I've completely misunderstood what you were trying to say...Jul 05 18:08
_Goblinhave you thought about NG's?Jul 05 18:08
_Goblinyou could always use that "as well as"...might hurry along distribution.Jul 05 18:09
thenixedreportWhat's an NG?Jul 05 18:09
_GoblinnewsgroupJul 05 18:09
_GoblinbinariesJul 05 18:09
thenixedreportAh.Jul 05 18:10
thenixedreportReason why I ask....Jul 05 18:10
thenixedreportI'm developing a business idea based on BitTorrent.Jul 05 18:10
thenixedreportAnd sharing of legal content.Jul 05 18:10
_Goblinisn't TPB already going in that direction?Jul 05 18:10
_GoblinTo be fair, I believe BT will die as soon as its no longer a viable medium for illegal downloads.Jul 05 18:11
_Goblinwhatever BT users tell you, its the "getting something for nothing" that makes it popular (IMO)Jul 05 18:11
_Goblinvery good for FOSS though (BT that is)Jul 05 18:12
_GoblinI just cant see how the revenue can be made with BT since there will always be pirate trackers to lure wouldbe customers away.Jul 05 18:13
thenixedreportNot necessarily.Jul 05 18:13
thenixedreportMy idea involves clients coming to me for bandwidth needs.Jul 05 18:13
thenixedreportIn other words, transporting information from one location to the next, especially if the two have wide distances between them.Jul 05 18:14
_GoblinahJul 05 18:14
thenixedreportI had the idea of making money off the technology way before the buyout story came out on TPB.Jul 05 18:14
thenixedreportIt would involve private clients.Jul 05 18:14
_GoblinI think the better model would be the private anon tracker (based out of reach of the MPIAA) on a subscription basis.  This would be where the money was...IMOJul 05 18:15
thenixedreportTell me about it.Jul 05 18:15
thenixedreportHow would I set such a thing up?Jul 05 18:15
thenixedreport(I'm also trying to keep it as simple as possible)Jul 05 18:15
_Goblinmaybe acting as a proxy between a tracker that exists now and the end user...Jul 05 18:15
_Goblinto be honest this is not my area of expertise....I've written a few papers on piracy that were privately funded, but they tended to lean towards the legal implications not the technology.Jul 05 18:16
thenixedreportUnderstood.Jul 05 18:17
_GoblinA good place to find the experts would be torrentfreak.comJul 05 18:17
thenixedreportThat's rightQ!Jul 05 18:17
thenixedreportI forgot about that!Jul 05 18:17
_Goblinand certainly a good idea of the "market"Jul 05 18:17
thenixedreportThanks so much.Jul 05 18:17
thenixedreport:)Jul 05 18:17
_GoblinnpJul 05 18:17
_Goblinif you manage to make it work, let us know!Jul 05 18:17
_GoblinI'd be very interested.Jul 05 18:18
thenixedreportInterested in hearing about, participating, or both?Jul 05 18:19
thenixedreport:)Jul 05 18:19
SpagCodeI suggest you use torrent as a conduit and as a part of a hosted private cloud, but as hard drives are large and network bandwidth cheap, you can have each user keep copies of each file, but at the same time seed all the files as torrent, Or at least update or changesetsJul 05 18:21
SpagCodeThat way you get enhanced network speeds, and multiple backups, and the ability to work offline without the net if its goes down,Jul 05 18:22
SpagCodeYou should take a look at the VMS file management system and its ability to span data over multiple systems and H/D, and to cluster by network connection by default.Jul 05 18:23
_Goblinsorry AFK...Jul 05 18:24
SpagCodeits especially good for its versioning so could do the same with torrents, so you can regress to earlier "file" versions and torrent them all.Jul 05 18:24
_GoblinInterested in hearing about...Although im anti-piracy, I still find the subject very interesting..Jul 05 18:25
SpagCodeIt would not be piracy, it would be the persons, or companies files and data.Jul 05 18:26
SpagCodeI can see the power of having every PC in the company being part of a high speed multi-seedingJul 05 18:28
_GoblinahJul 05 18:28
SpagCodedistributed and failsafe networkJul 05 18:28
_Goblinsorry, I thought it was going down the route of the old PB.Jul 05 18:28
thenixedreportNo.Jul 05 18:34
thenixedreportIt's not.Jul 05 18:35
thenixedreport:)Jul 05 18:35
thenixedreportThanks SpagCode.Jul 05 18:35
thenixedreportYour insights are interesting.Jul 05 18:35
SpagCodeits something I would be interested in, and would give great confidence in cloud and net technologies, and improve backups, versioning and archiving.Jul 05 18:38
thenixedreportI figured I'd start out simple, then enhance as it went along.Jul 05 18:39
thenixedreportFirst, I would need enough participants to pull this thing off.Jul 05 18:39
SpagCodethats the best way, even on a 2 pc networkJul 05 18:39
SpagCodeall the tools are allready there,Jul 05 18:40
thenixedreportIf you don't mind my asking, where are you from?Jul 05 18:40
thenixedreportAnd does your ISP have plenty of bandwidth?Jul 05 18:40
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SpagCodeim in australia, and i have high speed ADSL2, and a 25g monthly high speed limit that idles to 64kbps if I go over. Usage is an issue here.Jul 05 18:41
thenixedreportI see.Jul 05 18:42
thenixedreport:)Jul 05 18:42
thenixedreport:)Jul 05 18:42
thenixedreportIt would be awesome if I could get this thing to go international!Jul 05 18:43
thenixedreport:)Jul 05 18:43
SpagCodeKent brockman asked Lisa "how wide is the web"  Lisa a. "World",  Kent, "WOW".Jul 05 18:45
thenixedreportWell.Jul 05 18:45
thenixedreport:)Jul 05 18:45
thenixedreportI'm about to head out for a bit.Jul 05 18:45
thenixedreportSo I'll see you all later.Jul 05 18:45
thenixedreportI'll stay logged in though.Jul 05 18:46
SpagCodeBill Gates to Homer Simpson " I did not get rich by writing lots of checques".Jul 05 18:46
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Omar87Hello everyone.Jul 05 18:55
Omar87Do you guys agree with me that if we leave the FOSS world for developers and geeks that they're gonna straight up ruin the entire concept of software freedom?Jul 05 18:57
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[nickballard] These Mono guys have no brains and no class. "Mono developer uses f-word to abuse RMS" 05 18:58
Omar87Why? No offense but really, because these people only care about the code, and barely give a damn about the business and legal issues surrounding what they do.Jul 05 18:59
Omar87A developer has no problem to use all the proprietary technologies on earth in building a free open source program. And if you try to argue with him that this made his project totally exposed to lawsuits and and other stuff, he'll end up either ignoring you or making fun of you.Jul 05 19:03
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[_goblin] FTC cracking down on paid/bribed bloggers? - "The silence of the shills" #microsoft #windows #vista #xp #shillJul 05 19:13
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Omar87I really enjoyed this latest iTWire post. :)Jul 05 19:35
SpagCodewouldnt it be "the taming of the shrills"??Jul 05 19:38
_Goblinsorry, what were you saying Omar...I was afk.Jul 05 19:52
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_Goblinhi!Jul 05 20:08
_Hicham_Hi GoblinJul 05 20:09
_Hicham_what distro are u on right now?Jul 05 20:09
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twitterI did not enjoy that iTwire piece.  The Sanjeev incident is a lot of ugly non free stuff.  It is regrettable and forgettable.  Sam is right in his condemnation but cruel in his methods.Jul 05 20:24
twitterPicking on people for their lack of mastery of a second language is cheap and personal.Jul 05 20:25
_Goblinsorry mitcham...afk again..Jul 05 20:25
twitterI do hope the FTC cracks down on shillsJul 05 20:26
_GoblinI am currently using Gentoo/NimbleX and I have my own flavor of Linux in alpha Deep Red.Jul 05 20:26
_Goblinit would be good twitter...Jul 05 20:26
_Goblinalthough the easier way to solve it would be to force Microsoft to disclose instead of the blogger.Jul 05 20:26
twitterWell, yes.  It is much worse for M$ to pay hundreds of bloggers than for each of them to do their small part.Jul 05 20:27
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_GoblinI think the FTC is facing an impossible task going after all of them, so I think it would be fairer to ask MS and any marketing company to do the disclosing of who has recieved what....Jul 05 20:28
twitterThe crime is paying people to write under false pretenses.Jul 05 20:29
twitterThey lie about their affiliations.Jul 05 20:29
twitterThat would not happen if M$ did not make it so.Jul 05 20:29
twitterDone wrong, the FTC's efforts will end up harassing astroturf victims instead of the M$ criminalsJul 05 20:31
twitterI've been having problems loading wordpress.  Have you seen what I thought about that?Jul 05 20:32
_GoblinWhat probs?Jul 05 20:34
twitterThey hang on loading.Jul 05 20:34
_Goblinoh...Jul 05 20:34
twitterKonq hangs forever, never getting their correct number of images.Jul 05 20:34
_Goblinsince Ive started using the Chrome Beta, Wordpress is twice as quickJul 05 20:34
_Goblinare you using new FF?Jul 05 20:34
twitterNetsurf hangs forever, never getting 5/5 stylesheets.Jul 05 20:34
twitterNo, I've got the version of IceWeasel that comes with Lenny.Jul 05 20:35
twitterIt hangs too.Jul 05 20:35
_GoblinahJul 05 20:35
twitterI tracked it down to edge.sphere.netJul 05 20:35
_Goblinlike I say, Ive had no issues of late...Jul 05 20:35
twitterWashington Post, Newsweek, ZDNet and many other sites affiliated all do the same thing.Jul 05 20:36
twitterNetsurf, for example, is now consuming an incredible 65% of my CPU getting your wordpress site to load.Jul 05 20:36
twitterIt completed it's last stylesheet in 184.3 seconds and has 0/7 objects loaded.Jul 05 20:37
_Goblinoh dear..Jul 05 20:37
twitterKonq and Iceweasel never load.  It's some kind of very ugly java script.Jul 05 20:37
_Goblinlol...this is good:Jul 05 20:38
_Goblin"IZEA has no restrictions on how bloggers express their genuine thoughts on an advertiser’s product"Jul 05 20:38
twitterThe latest changes that got your site only happened in the last couple of days.Jul 05 20:38
_GoblinstrangeJul 05 20:38
twitterIt's not particular to my network connection.  I got the same problems with FF on Solaris running at an out of state location.Jul 05 20:39
twitterKonq 4.2 and Iceweasel in testing have similar problems but not as bad.  Iceweasel 3.0.9 is slow to losd and I have the fonts all messed up (my bad).  Konq hangs.Jul 05 20:45
twitterah, there's Konq.Jul 05 20:46
twitterIt took forever.Jul 05 20:46
twitterBut really, people should not be forced out of stable distributions just to browse the web.Jul 05 20:46
twitterSomething stinks about it all.Jul 05 20:47
ThistleWebhave you checked behind the couch? usually the dog left something there that's the source of the stinkJul 05 20:48
ThistleWebeither that or the soles of your shoesJul 05 20:54
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-BNc/#boycottnovell-[_goblin] From botnet's to an alleged feature on FOSS. BBC Click.....Is this supposed to show that the our TV licence is value?Jul 05 21:13
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trmancowhat is this? some kind of a joke?Jul 05 21:56
trmanco"In the same way that Firefox is "a free implementation of Microsoft's Internet Explorer". Mono is an implementation of two published standards, primarily from Microsoft (plus a few others like HP).Jul 05 21:56
trmanco"Jul 05 21:56
trmanco 05 21:57
twitterbad joke.Jul 05 22:02
twitterthe nature of copyright is best demonstrated in exceptions to it like this, 05 22:02
twitterCopyright == "thou shalt not share"Jul 05 22:04
twitterEvolution.  A person has decided that their data is worth saving but has not realized Windows is what loses their data 05 22:06
twitter" I want any drive and its data to be as safe and portable as possible (that's the reason for choosing FAT32)"Jul 05 22:06
twitterughJul 05 22:06
twitterThe only OS that needs fat32 is windowsJul 05 22:06
trmancoyeahJul 05 22:14
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[_goblin] "A facebook of Ballmer? & KISS audition." #microsoft #windows #vista #xp #linux #fossJul 05 22:23
twitterThis is alarming, 05 22:44
twitter->  In 2006, Andrew Stepanian was sentenced to three years in prison for violating a controversial law known as the Animal Enterprise Protection Act. Stepanian and six others were jailed for their role in a campaign to stop animal testing by the British scientific firm Huntingdon Life Science. They were convicted of using a website to “incite attacks” on those who did business with Huntingdon Life Science. Together, the group beJul 05 22:45
twitterSo, this guy go three years in jail for running a web site.Jul 05 22:46
twitterPart of that three years was a trip to a "little Guantanamo"Jul 05 22:46
twitterI'd say that the US has political prisoners and that they are tortured.Jul 05 22:47
_Goblininteresting post...although the UK (according to legislation) will still hang you for flying the Jolly Roger in Britains seas and waterways...its of no surprise.Jul 05 22:50
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thenixedreportI have returned.Jul 05 22:55
thenixedreportYay.Jul 05 22:55
thenixedreportHey, _Goblin.Jul 05 22:55
thenixedreportI found an answer to my VM/BT question.Jul 05 22:55
thenixedreportIt could be useful if I throttled my bandwidth on each VM.Jul 05 22:55
thenixedreport:DJul 05 22:55
_Goblinah.Jul 05 22:56
twitterWhat kind of person is Andrew Stephanian?  -> ANDREW STEPANIAN: I was doing Food Not Bombs, feeding the homeless once a week for about six years. It’s the same motivation that I had to do that every Sunday morning that brought me to question what was going on inside Huntingdon Life Sciences, the efficacy of testing on animals and the efficacy of the way we treat animals in this country. And it also brought me to New Orleans, LouisJul 05 22:56
twitterMy bad.  Andrew did not even run the site.Jul 05 22:57
twitter->  Andrew’s case the evidence against him was essentially that he was associating with a website, didn’t operate the website. But beyond that, the FBI wiretaps that were admitted established Andrew’s attempts, repeated attempts, to reflect his decision not to violate the time, place and manner restrictions of the civil injunctions that were imposed on certain demonstrations. And the government argues that at one point when MrJul 05 22:59
twitterSo, your encrypted messages are evidence of wrong doing when they can't be read.Jul 05 23:00
_GoblinI would presume on "Balance of probabilities" for statute defense.Jul 05 23:05
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twitterHappy 4th of jully, 05 23:32
twitter 05 23:32
twitterHow Hollywood continues to suck, July 2009 (How Hollywood systematically makes lousy movies)Jul 05 23:37
twitter" July 2009 (How Hollywood systematically makes lousy movies)"Jul 05 23:37
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