IRC: #boycottnovell @ FreeNode: July 7th, 2009

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Balrog_managers who don't care / have an agenda are a big problem in many places :(Jul 07 00:00
trmanco 07 00:02
Balrog_CP != fossJul 07 00:02
Balrog_"The CP requires that implementations conform to all of required parts of the mandatory portions of the specification." == not goodJul 07 00:02
Lnsmaking the community conform to your specs hinders creative developmentJul 07 00:03
Balrog_yesJul 07 00:03
Balrog_it also prevents partial internal implementationsJul 07 00:04
Lnsthough they are being much more thoughtful than before, ... can't blame em for holding onto some things still. one can only hope it will get better over timeJul 07 00:04
Lnsthis is a step in the right direction, at leastJul 07 00:04
cjtrmanco: in response to your question about winforms (etc.)Jul 07 00:11
cjIn the next few months we will be working towards splitting the jumbo Mono source code that includes ECMA + A lot more into two separate source code distributions. One will be ECMA, the other will contain our implementation of ASP.NET, ADO.NET, Winforms and others.Jul 07 00:11
trmancoah, finallyJul 07 00:11
cjtrmanco: that was from miggie's blogJul 07 00:11
trmancowho is miggie?Jul 07 00:12
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-BNc/#boycottnovell-[popey] Microsoft issues Mono community promise 07 00:13
cjtrmanco: it's a nick name: 07 00:15
jose_Xmicrosoft is set to apply their "community promise" to ecma stds that define base mono.Jul 07 00:15
jose_X 07 00:15
jose_X>> I have some good news to announce: Microsoft will be applying the Community Promise to the ECMA 334 and ECMA 335 specs.Jul 07 00:15
trmancothat's newJul 07 00:15
jose_Xposted this afternoonJul 07 00:15
trmancojose_X, we are talking currently talking about thatJul 07 00:16
trmancocj, I don't read his blog directlyJul 07 00:16
jose_XokJul 07 00:16
trmancojose_X, 07 00:17
jose_X>> Microsoft irrevocably promises not to assert any Microsoft Necessary Claims... to the extent it conforms to one of the Covered Specifications, and is compliant with all of the required parts of the mandatory provisions of that specificationJul 07 00:17
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jose_X>> This is big news and a great sign. For one thing it shows that the intesive criticism mono has recieved is producing some positive effects. This is thanks to mono critics; not mono apologists.Jul 07 00:17
cjjose_X: define 'apologists'Jul 07 00:20
jose_XI was quotingJul 07 00:20
cjfrom whom?Jul 07 00:20
jose_Xbut i think that is to people that would take the patent license issue lightlyJul 07 00:20
jose_Xsee trmanco link aboveJul 07 00:21
trmanco 07 00:21
cjah.  I don't know who those people are...Jul 07 00:21
jose_X>> Q: Why doesn’t the CP apply to things that are merely referenced in the specification?Jul 07 00:22
jose_XA: It is a common practice that technology licenses focus on the specifics of what is detailed in the specifications and exclude what are frequently called “enabling technologies.” If we included patent claims to the enabling technology, then as an extreme example, it could be argued that one needs computer and operating system patents to implement almost any information technology specification. No such broad patent licenses tJul 07 00:22
jose_Xo referenced technologies are ever given for specific industry standards.Jul 07 00:22
jose_XYou allow the kids to gnaw on the outside of the house, but you can't give away the whole houseJul 07 00:22
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jose_XI'm also not sure if this has feet when it comes to patent trolls that buy up patentsJul 07 00:23
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jose_Xie, if there is any protection from microsoft selling some core mono patents to proxiesJul 07 00:24
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jose_Xanyway, i'd like to hear what lawyers think about this situation and what is the likely situation surrounding monoJul 07 00:25
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cjjose_X: I've got a dialogue open with Daniel Ravicher and RMS about that.  I'll post updates in my blog when I put the web server back onlineJul 07 00:27
trmancocoolJul 07 00:28
jose_XDon't get offended cj, but I usually don't keep track of specific sites/blogs. Linux Today and BN are two that I watch currently.Jul 07 00:28
jose_Xanyway, you were probably being polite to me but addressing everyone... okJul 07 00:28
jose_XthanksJul 07 00:28
cjjose_X: oh, no offense taken.Jul 07 00:29
jose_X:-)Jul 07 00:30
jose_XI was so worried you would be offended by me ;-)Jul 07 00:31
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-BNc/#boycottnovell-[_goblin] Reading: "LinuxTracker .::. Index->Torrent->Details" ( 07 00:38
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NgI guess you already saw the Community Promise C#/CLI thing?Jul 07 00:39
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_Hicham_Hi MinceRJul 07 01:04
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jose_XlaterJul 07 01:10
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twitterNot Good Enough -> "to the extent it conforms to one of the Covered Specifications"Jul 07 01:14
twitterIf I can't modify the software so that it does what I want and share those modifications with my friends, it's not free software.Jul 07 01:15
twitterIt should take the FSF all of three minutes to spot that problem.Jul 07 01:16
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[_goblin] Been using (and seeding on Linuxtracker) wolvix-2.0.0-beta2 expect an update on my blog. Nice "punchy" distro. #linux #foss #xfceJul 07 01:18
twitterFrom mono-nono -> "It doesn’t seem that the Community Promise will remove any worry at all about the parts of mono that implement .NET and are outside of the ECMA standards. This is a very serious question, because we have internal emails from court records that show Microsoft discussed how much of .NET to standardize, and to protect the rest with patents to prevent commoditization of .NET"Jul 07 01:19
twitterSo, more BS from M$.Jul 07 01:19
twitterM$ has shown again and again they create traps for others.  Their behavior is consistent from the amazingly never shown lines of SCO code to the TomTom settlement.   M$ should never be trusted.Jul 07 01:22
twitter-> " Right now, unless I am missing something - I don’t think you can work up a strong argument against the standard parts."Jul 07 01:23
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twitterYou're doing it wrong.  A strong argument must be made for the "standard part"Jul 07 01:24
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twitterThis argument has to be better than, "I spent a lot of my time on this," and "This photo application is cool."Jul 07 01:25
twitterThere are many free alternatives to mono and M$ has been working to kill free software for the last 10 years.Jul 07 01:25
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-BNc/#boycottnovell-[_goblin] Wobbly don't notice it until you take it away....somehow I feel less in control of my DE without them. #linuxJul 07 01:58
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_Hicham_hi neighborleeJul 07 02:45
_Hicham_howdy?Jul 07 02:45
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neighborleehmJul 07 02:58
neighborleeo_)Jul 07 02:58
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cjtwitter: nobody will take you seriously if you keep saying "M$"Jul 07 03:08
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cjyou sound like a 14-year-old zealot.  imho :)Jul 07 03:09
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cjdo you *really* think ms would have a case if they took someone to court for violating their patents at this point?Jul 07 03:10
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Willschestowitz : you may have seen this already, but here: 07 03:19
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stephenjudkinswhat's up with microsoft's "community promise"?Jul 07 03:20
WillI don't know yet.  I guess I'll care more when I find a mono app that I actually use.Jul 07 03:20
stephenjudkinscurious what people here think.Jul 07 03:21
WillRoy will probably have an article up soon. I'm curious to hear his take on it.Jul 07 03:24
WillI'm also curious to see how a "Covered Implementation" is defined.Jul 07 03:25
stephenjudkinshas anyone you guys know changed their minds because of this?Jul 07 03:26
ThistleWebapart from Banshee, Tomboy and FSpot that get all the headlines, another apparently popular mono app is gnome-doJul 07 03:26
ThistleWebthe others have non-mono alternates but I dunno if gnome-do is unique in it's functionalityJul 07 03:27
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stephenjudkinsthanks.Jul 07 03:28
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axordGnome-Do is not unique in that it's an example of a class of softwareJul 07 03:28
ThistleWebI've never used it, so I maybe dont get exactly what it doesJul 07 03:29
neighborleeand hardly 'must-do' as a app in linux..I can't imagine living without out..oh actuallly I can < I never use need now or ever>Jul 07 03:29
anshuljainhi, just read the Microsoft pledge not to sue any implementations of C#Jul 07 03:29
neighborleesamed for tomboy..with gnote I might'' consider using such  apps,,we'll see not holding my breathJul 07 03:29
anshuljain 07 03:29
axordAs far as I'm aware, this is the granddaddy of gnome-do: 07 03:29
neighborleeanshuljain, your too late,,somebody else has shown us the light ;)Jul 07 03:30
neighborleeanshuljain, and the hate...Jul 07 03:30
neighborleeanshuljain, but thx just the same ;)Jul 07 03:30
anshuljainhaha...I knew as such...I caught it on the Mandriva forums..Jul 07 03:30
anshuljainI'm no GNOME user, but a hardcore KDE I really dont care...but do dislike M$ with great passionJul 07 03:31
anshuljaindoes this pledge change anything though?Jul 07 03:31
neighborleenone of this changes that it must be downloaded from ONLY novelJul 07 03:31
neighborleeanshuljain, I doubt itJul 07 03:32
anshuljainso Novell becomes upstream for Mono?Jul 07 03:32
WillThis is Microsoft.  Past history dictates caution in any dealing with them.Jul 07 03:32
neighborleeanshuljain, considering who its coming from..I highly doubt itJul 07 03:32
neighborleeanshuljain, prob vaper speakJul 07 03:32
neighborleeWill, exacatlyJul 07 03:32
neighborleeexactlyJul 07 03:32
anshuljainthey pretty much are the upstream guys though...Anakin de Icaza and gangJul 07 03:33
neighborleewell the trouble isJul 07 03:33
neighborlee 'some' of us have long memories..Jul 07 03:33
neighborleethose of us who do,,keep such as those like M$ honest.Jul 07 03:33
anshuljaintrue...Jul 07 03:33
anshuljainthis gives huge ammo to the Ubuntu and Opensuse-GNOME guysJul 07 03:34
WillAnakin de Icaza... cute.Jul 07 03:34
neighborleein a perfect world..yes it would be nice to be able to use everything coming from m$ share with others whole heartedly..peace and good willl to all...but atm that reality is severely skewedJul 07 03:34
neighborleetill a new day dawns,,,,we exercize due diligence ;)Jul 07 03:35
anshuljainneighborlee...I don't trust M$, they did something really nasty in my company which is primarily a Linux shopJul 07 03:35
anshuljainCan't speak about it though publicly..Jul 07 03:35
neighborleethey do similar things to many people/organizationsJul 07 03:35
twitterM$ does nothing niceJul 07 03:35
neighborleesorry to hear thatJul 07 03:35
ThistleWebwe excersise? I'm sure that's news to someJul 07 03:36
neighborleelolJul 07 03:36
anshuljainyou're right neighborlee..they do it all the time..Jul 07 03:36
twitterthe mono people have no new ammoJul 07 03:36
neighborleeagreedJul 07 03:36
twitterit's the same old thingJul 07 03:36
neighborleeand alsoJul 07 03:36
twitterM$ makes half assed promisesJul 07 03:36
twitternothing has changed.Jul 07 03:36
neighborleedo you note the 'tone' on that url ?..from the posters ?Jul 07 03:36
neighborleenote the  venom ? ;)Jul 07 03:36
Willrecent shenanigans like the OOXML scandal and the TomTom case strip any credibility from "kinder, gentler, MS" spins.Jul 07 03:37
anshuljainI'm just glad that FOSS has another option always - KDE :)Jul 07 03:37
ThistleWebthey do plenty of nice stuff, but it's always nice to THEIR profits and control, regardless of the (intentional or unintentional) colateral damage to othersJul 07 03:37
twitterGnome can be forked, if people care.Jul 07 03:37
anshuljainI wonder how is RH gonna respond to thisJul 07 03:37
twitterIt already is if you consider all of the gtk stuff that's out thereJul 07 03:37
anshuljainwe all know that Ubuntueros are gonna jump all over on thisJul 07 03:38
WillI'm considering it.  Only considering at this stage.Jul 07 03:38
twitterthey have been jumping all along, what's new?Jul 07 03:38
WillNever have been able to get Fedora to play nice with my hardware, though.Jul 07 03:39
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ThistleWebWill: it's nothing personal, Fedora seems to be real choosy who it plays withJul 07 03:39
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WillThistleWeb : if you don't mind a dumb question, could you (or someone else) explain to me how, if distros released around the same time are using roughly the same kernel, there can sometimes be such a variance in hardware support between distros?Jul 07 03:43
ThistleWebfedora are hardcore free software guysJul 07 03:43
ThistleWebthey only include redistributable codeJul 07 03:44
Willgotcha.  binary blob drivers.Jul 07 03:44
Willgrumble grumble nvidia grumble grumble.Jul 07 03:44
ThistleWebthey're also a cutting edge distro, which does mean stuff has new features but maybe not stable enough for other distrosJul 07 03:44
ThistleWebthey have a higher percentage of contriibuters in their user base, who expect a different thingJul 07 03:45
ThistleWebthey can fix stuff easierJul 07 03:45
ThistleWebthey dont really want a normal user base who only consume, they'd rather have a smaller number, but a higher percentage of peeps helping the projectJul 07 03:45
ThistleWebsome distros are easier on the non-free code but Fedora have always taken a standJul 07 03:46
WillYeah.  The Ubuntu community may be helpful and friendly, but the Fedora userbase really knows what it's talking about for more difficult stuff.Jul 07 03:47
ThistleWebapparently you can enable the rpm-fusion repo and all sorts of stuff like skype / mp3 playback etc are at your disposal, but it's not enabled by defaultJul 07 03:47
ThistleWebthats whyJul 07 03:47
WillI'm basically the kind of person that hacks _with_ Linux as opposed to hacking _on_ Linux.Jul 07 03:47
ThistleWebthey are more aimed at devsJul 07 03:47
ThistleWebusually fedora is a good place to see the stuff most distros will be using 6mths down the lineJul 07 03:48
WillI need Linux for my work, but Linux isn't my work.Jul 07 03:48
WillI've always respected fedora as the "guinea pig" distro, so to speak.  (no offense implied)Jul 07 03:49
ThistleWebit is kindaJul 07 03:49
ThistleWebthey do a lot of good stuff that makes it into other distrosJul 07 03:49
ThistleWeboffhand I think plymouth and the tickless kernel were both fedora thingsJul 07 03:50
ThistleWebubuntu 9.10 is gonna have plymouthJul 07 03:50
ThistleWebfedora had it since 9 I thinkJul 07 03:50
Willa lot of things are fedora things.  They suffer the breakages so the other distros don't have to.Jul 07 03:50
WillI like plymouth, but nvidia is dragging its feet in supporting it.Jul 07 03:51
ThistleWebyeah, fedora is not for me, it's too bleeding edgeJul 07 03:51
twitterIf I read M$'s little announcement correctly, they have used ecma and patents to make mono explicitly non free.Jul 07 03:51
Willyou think ubuntu would have enough weight to get nvidia to move on that?Jul 07 03:51
twitterThey say they won't sue "conforming implementations"Jul 07 03:51
ThistleWebthey'd have the best chance of all the distrosJul 07 03:52
Willtwitter: I noticed that tooJul 07 03:52
twitterThat means no one can make changes.Jul 07 03:52
ThistleWebmaybe apart from RHJul 07 03:52
twitterthat makes mono non free, where it's not covered by an up front patent screw over.Jul 07 03:52
ThistleWebRH dont get enough credit for what they do for all of usJul 07 03:53
twitterso every distribution that cares should move mono into their non free branchJul 07 03:53
twitterIt should not be included in Debian's free repository or in Fedora.Jul 07 03:53
ThistleWebI dont mind mono being included in a repo, it's the included by default that I'm not keen onJul 07 03:54
twitterUntil software patents are eliminated, as Biski says they will be.Jul 07 03:54
ThistleWebpeeps who have a need for it can install it, while those who don't, wont have it installedJul 07 03:54
twitterWhile software patents are still a threat, mono is still a trap.Jul 07 03:54
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WillThistleWeb: I keep waiting for when nouveau will be good enough to replace the proprietary driver, since nvidia can't keep theirs current.Jul 07 03:55
twitterWait for AMD to have free ATI drivers.Jul 07 03:55
ThistleWebyeah, it'll be a while yet before you can have a fully free desktop without any sacrificesJul 07 03:56
twitterBetween ATI and Intel, Nvidia will have to follow and M$ is the odd man out.Jul 07 03:56
WillI also don't mind mono in a repo.  Just not on the initial install by default.Jul 07 03:56
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ThistleWebif it's in a repo it's easy to installJul 07 03:56
twitterAs things stand, mono belongs in the non free repo.Jul 07 03:56
neighborleealong with moonlightJul 07 03:57
twitterthat keeps it away from defaultJul 07 03:57
twittercleans up the problems nicely.Jul 07 03:57
neighborleewell I guess that ones not even  ANYwhere...?Jul 07 03:57
ThistleWebfedora took a while to add a non-free repo for easy mp3 etc setup and took a lot of flak for itJul 07 03:57
Willtwitter : I think one of the BN commenters thinks you and I are the same person.Jul 07 03:57
twitterthat's their problemJul 07 03:57
ThistleWebthey are very principledJul 07 03:58
ThistleWebeven if that means a FU to some peepsJul 07 03:58
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neighborleelolJul 07 03:58
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ThistleWebso it's no real surprise that fedora have removed tomboy from the install CDJul 07 03:59
Bill_GatesWill and Bill share a common name.Jul 07 03:59
neighborleeThistleWeb, no, gnotes sealed its doomJul 07 03:59
neighborleeso yes.Jul 07 03:59
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twittergnotes is doomed?Jul 07 03:59
neighborleegnotes shoulnd't have been needed, but hey we'll take it ;)Jul 07 04:00
ThistleWebhaving said that, Debian are also just as hardline on free software, so them entertaining mono is puzzlingJul 07 04:00
WillThistleWeb : but I respect Fedora for their stance.  That stance may mean that I use another distro for convenience, but it also means I know they will never let themselves get caught in a trap.Jul 07 04:01
WillThe Debian case confuses me too.Jul 07 04:02
ThistleWebI expected both fedora and debian to be holdouts against mono regardless of how many others got seducedJul 07 04:02
twitterWhen you use nothing but free software, you can have repositories everywhere.  This is a key advantage.Jul 07 04:02
neighborleefrankly I wish their distro was a tad easier to use in some areas,,but I trust in time that may come...its already amazing for what it does and if and when many more migrate TO fedora , you aint seen nothing yet ;)Jul 07 04:02
WillI mean, coming from the people that brought you Iceweasel.Jul 07 04:02
neighborleeagreed +1Jul 07 04:02
ThistleWebthe typical last 2 dudes at the party who refuse to accept it's overJul 07 04:03
twitterWhat about Iceweasel?Jul 07 04:03
ThistleWebnobody can convice them to go homeJul 07 04:03
neighborleehe's saying..that they were even a little ok with mono,,yet iceweasle was so imperative ;0-Jul 07 04:03
neighborleethis , from a company specifiucally doing its fair to ask wth ;))Jul 07 04:04
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twittericeweasle was about Mozilla trademark and porting to other architecturesJul 07 04:04
Willwhat neighborlee said.   They got into a tiff with Mozilla about a minor non-free part of the license, then they accept mono.Jul 07 04:04
ThistleWebI don't think mono will be an issue for that long in debian, I reckon it'll always be a cautious use, ready to be removed at the first sign of troubleJul 07 04:04
twitterDebian's Iceweasel runs on ARM, MIPSJul 07 04:04
ThistleWebit's being forced right nowJul 07 04:05
twitterno one is going to force Debian to do anything.Jul 07 04:05
ThistleWebbut I doubt they will let it get to a stage where it's hard to removeJul 07 04:05
Willtwitter: you can say that again.Jul 07 04:05
twitterIf they pay attention to what M$ says, they will lock mono away in non free.Jul 07 04:05
twitterDebian is a free community.Jul 07 04:06
neighborleeI look at it this someone who commits crime they are locked away where ?Jul 07 04:06
neighborleeand M$ has done its share of crimes,,,we all know the bloody storyJul 07 04:06
neighborleeand it takes time for a community to trust , after such deceitJul 07 04:06
twitterpeople should understand that mono is not free software, it is restricted in various waysJul 07 04:06
neighborleeso I ask..where should mono go..Jul 07 04:06
ThistleWebit is a strange one, it's gpl so it's technically freeJul 07 04:07
WillI don't even see where the problem is with locking mono in the extra repos.  It's still there, no harder to install than a lot of other software.Jul 07 04:07
twitterI'm not sure mono has technical advantages great enough to merit inclusion in non free, so it might just get dropped on the floorJul 07 04:07
ThistleWebeven if it's not reallyJul 07 04:07
neighborleetwitter, vala might make that a moot arguementJul 07 04:08
twittermono is strange because it's a M$ FUD vehicleJul 07 04:08
twitternothing about it will ever add up.Jul 07 04:08
Willhence the unusual sound and fury about it all over the webJul 07 04:09
neighborleewell it adds up if you consider what it makes them look like,,IF linux 'adopts it ;)Jul 07 04:09
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neighborleeWill, and the loudest, and nastiest from those who support itJul 07 04:10
ThistleWebwhen a fight errupts, onlookers only see 2 sides fighting, not who started itJul 07 04:10
neighborleeah but there is a defining moment there..its not just the fight(),,,its the  style thereof ;0-Jul 07 04:11
ThistleWebif they miss the start, or are not following it it just looks like 2 sides fightingJul 07 04:11
neighborleeIt can...Jul 07 04:11
neighborleebut there is moreJul 07 04:12
ThistleWebon tech stuff, when both sides are posting all sorts of long winded and highly technical arguments (real or bullshit) it's easy for onlookers to glaze overJul 07 04:12
neighborleeif the talks are locked behind closed doors ( think recurring discussions ), then few likely see it or know of its left to obscurity or so they hopeJul 07 04:12
ThistleWeboften that type of stuff needs peeps to be following the debate / argumentJul 07 04:13
ThistleWebrather than just dip in at one point (pro or con)Jul 07 04:13
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ThistleWebpeeps on both sides use different sites they claim to be fact based, while denouncing others as liesJul 07 04:14
neighborleeand they are free to do soJul 07 04:16
ThistleWeboften the lies are written by peeps well skilled in marketing that it looks legit to most peepsJul 07 04:16
neighborleelong as the debate remains civil''Jul 07 04:16
WillIf this were any other language not from MS, it would be used and judged on its technical merits without all the mudslinging.Jul 07 04:16
WillI've never seen people go all out to attack or slander the other side like this in a KDE vs. GNOME or emacs vs. vim debate.Jul 07 04:16
ThistleWeb"if you want to learn about a BMW, what it's like to own one, the last place you go is the BMW site as it's just an online version of their sales brochure" - Douglas AdamsJul 07 04:16
ThistleWebI think the kde v gnome or vim v emacs is mostly historyJul 07 04:17
neighborleeI guess that depends on the product and company behind it ;)Jul 07 04:17
ThistleWebspecially vim v emacs, most of us use GUI environments nowJul 07 04:17
*ThistleWeb ducksJul 07 04:17
ThistleWeblolJul 07 04:17
neighborleeLOLJul 07 04:17
Willgood oneJul 07 04:18
neighborleeyeah you better duck..might be some gentoo'ers in here that use linksJul 07 04:18
ThistleWebyeah, it's a sore subject for someJul 07 04:18
neighborlee:)Jul 07 04:18
ThistleWebI try to appreciate FOSS / Linux projects for what they are, even if I dont use themJul 07 04:18
Willright tools for the right job.  I use whatever works best.Jul 07 04:18
ThistleWebI asked a few podcasts to appeal for help on kde's basketJul 07 04:19
ThistleWebI dont use kde, or basketJul 07 04:19
ThistleWebbut it's a great appJul 07 04:19
WillI started with KDE.  Still using GNOME until I'm confident that 4.x is a drop in replacement for 3.xJul 07 04:20
ThistleWebkde 4 looks niceJul 07 04:20
ThistleWebI like where they're going with itJul 07 04:20
WillMe too.Jul 07 04:20
ThistleWebI've grown rather attached to xfce myself, although I'm currently using openbox on crunchbangJul 07 04:21
WillI just wish more people had been listening when the KDE devs loudly proclaimed that 4.0 and 4.1 weren't supposed to be production ready.Jul 07 04:21
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ThistleWebyeah, I understand why 4.0 was handled the way it was, and why peeps got the wrong ideaJul 07 04:21
WillThey're getting there.  step by step.  It's the kind of desktop that will do a lot to win over the eye-candy crowd.Jul 07 04:24
ThistleWebyeah but it seems to have a lot of function planned underneath the formJul 07 04:24
neighborlee 07 04:24
WillThat too.  I for one liked the desktop window spaces.Jul 07 04:24
WillWhy have just one folder displayed on the desktop when you can have several and work from all of themJul 07 04:25
neighborleekde in fedora 11 anyway isnt stable..has crashed far too often..its version 4.2.4 though so  maybe thats not the most stable version I dont know....ive just seen consistent crashing on various componentseJul 07 04:25
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ThistleWebneighborlee: methinks fedora may be the causeJul 07 04:26
ThistleWebit's not known for it's stabilityJul 07 04:26
neighborleeI have no idea..but I did wonder Yes.Jul 07 04:26
WillAt this point, I feel like KDE4 + Fedora is just asking for trouble.  2x bleeding edge.Jul 07 04:26
ThistleWebeven on mature apps that work great everywhere elseJul 07 04:26
neighborleecertain things are less stable then others shall we sayJul 07 04:26
neighborlee like pulse o_0Jul 07 04:26
ThistleWebgrrrr I HATE Pulse AudioJul 07 04:27
neighborleethough...its working alOT better now that I applied some fixes someone nicely posted on fedora forumJul 07 04:27
neighborleeheh I feel your painJul 07 04:27
ThistleWebPulse does NOT like my hardwareJul 07 04:27
neighborleeouchJul 07 04:27
Willstill happily using alsaJul 07 04:27
neighborlee:)Jul 07 04:27
ThistleWebany app that uses it wpnt work on my hardware, but a simple switch to alsa is the magic wandJul 07 04:27
ThistleWebonce I had audacious jump from alsa to pulse for some reasonJul 07 04:28
ThistleWebI'm guessing some update flicked it when it shouldn't haveJul 07 04:28
ThistleWebtook me ages to find the prob, with reinstalls etcJul 07 04:29
ThistleWebuntil I spotted Pulse in the settingsJul 07 04:29
WillI've learned to let the "hey, let's rewrite this just cause we can!" projects take their time.  Sometimes they produce good stuff, but I don't jump until they've gotten their stuff sorted.  I've stuck enough forks in toasters already.Jul 07 04:29
ThistleWebI had to restrain myself to save the monitor lolJul 07 04:29
ThistleWebI like the potential pulse hasJul 07 04:29
ThistleWebit just will not work on my hardwareJul 07 04:30
WillPulse is a good idea.  Might tame the Linux sound zoo.Jul 07 04:30
WillI just haven't yet heard that it works 100%Jul 07 04:30
ThistleWebit seems a lot of peeps have a love hate thing with pulse, those who it works for think it's great, while many others like me have nothing but hassle with itJul 07 04:31
ThistleWebI like the idea of separate levels for each appJul 07 04:32
ThistleWeband piping a source to anotherJul 07 04:32
neighborleeyesJul 07 04:32
ThistleWebso pulse is the future....I just hope the future still know the concept of "it has to work"Jul 07 04:33
neighborleethats the beauty of itJul 07 04:33
neighborleewindows has something similarJul 07 04:33
ThistleWebyep, windows does indeedJul 07 04:33
ThistleWebit has had for a whileJul 07 04:33
neighborleeyupJul 07 04:33
ThistleWebpulse will get thereJul 07 04:34
Willjust like KDE4Jul 07 04:34
neighborleehehJul 07 04:34
ThistleWebyepJul 07 04:34
neighborleeindeedJul 07 04:34
neighborleeonly thing Istill hav static sounds in some game areas where in windows for the same game I do notJul 07 04:34
Willand hopefully Gnome 3 will have a smoother ride than KDE4 has.Jul 07 04:34
neighborleebut that could be other factors, im not really sure yetJul 07 04:35
ThistleWebgnome will have watched kde's experiences and have learned the good and bad from their approachJul 07 04:35
neighborleewell I still agree with linus about gnome..'just use kde'Jul 07 04:35
neighborleeisn't alt-F2 enough to verify that ? ;)Jul 07 04:35
neighborleeI mean..lets get real here ;)Jul 07 04:36
neighborleelolJul 07 04:36
Willand gnome was always more of the "slow and steady" type than KDE anyway.Jul 07 04:36
ThistleWebI'm glad the devs on both teams are working to help each other, and that it's just the hardline fanbois trying to stir up some animosityJul 07 04:36
ThistleWebmake gtk apps work (and look) better on kde and vice versaJul 07 04:36
ThistleWebthat can only be good for all of usJul 07 04:36
*ThistleWeb appreciates the work of all the FOSS devs, regardless of their platform of choiceJul 07 04:37
neighborleeas we shouldJul 07 04:37
Willas do IJul 07 04:37
WillWhich is one reason I don't like all of the Ubuntu hateJul 07 04:37
WillEven if I didn't use it as my primary distro.Jul 07 04:37
ThistleWebyepJul 07 04:37
neighborleeubuntu hate ?Jul 07 04:38
neighborleeelaborateJul 07 04:38
ThistleWebit's the poster child distro with the momentumJul 07 04:38
WillJust how on some blogs, even among the Linux community, hating on Ubuntu seems to be the popular thing.Jul 07 04:38
ThistleWebI reckon there's a lot of jelousy from the more established distros that Ubuntu is the johnny-come-lately stealing all the limelight they've carefully nurturedJul 07 04:39
neighborleeI guess that depends on the topic .Jul 07 04:39
ThistleWebnot from the distros themselves, but from some of their usersJul 07 04:39
WillThistleWeb : that's probably a lot of it.Jul 07 04:39
WillUbuntu contributes in its own ways.  It's done a lot for Linux mindshare, although I also would rather that people remember Ubuntu != Linux.Jul 07 04:40
ThistleWebsome linux users feel that it's a badge of honour to be able to do a hard install etc, so any distro that makes it easy for newbies weakens their credJul 07 04:40
ThistleWebubuntu are the juggernaught we all rideJul 07 04:40
ThistleWebI'm happy to help add my weight to the momentumJul 07 04:41
neighborleegentoo users get that sentiment..its lost on most everyone elseJul 07 04:41
neighborleegentoo is kewl for what it does..not so much for the hastle it wreaks on ones nerves LOLJul 07 04:41
ThistleWebpossibly slackware tooJul 07 04:41
neighborleeI hated masksJul 07 04:41
neighborleeUSE is kewl..masks not so miuchJul 07 04:41
neighborleeuchJul 07 04:41
WillIn my view, a victory for any Linux distro is a victory for all distros.Jul 07 04:41
Willexcept SUSE :PJul 07 04:42
ThistleWebmany peeps will start with ubuntu, then drift to something else when they get their heads around the whole linux thingJul 07 04:42
ThistleWebwhile others will stay with ubuntuJul 07 04:42
ThistleWebeither way, it's one more PC user who's not on Windows or OSXJul 07 04:42
ThistleWebwhich is a win for Linux and FOSSJul 07 04:42
neighborleethe geek mind willl often drift I suppose...its like people and sports risks ;))Jul 07 04:42
neighborleethrill of the rideJul 07 04:43
neighborleeand thats fineJul 07 04:43
WillI think I tried about 5-6 distros before Ubuntu... I'm just enjoying a rest period from the hopping right now.Jul 07 04:43
ThistleWebI loved pclinuxosJul 07 04:43
neighborleeWill, yeah a rest well desered ;)Jul 07 04:44
neighborleeman that was getting OLDJul 07 04:44
ThistleWebI've since grown out of kde and rpm but that was a damn fine distroJul 07 04:44
ThistleWebit did fade a bit, but the 2009 version is almost backJul 07 04:44
WillUbuntu is the first distro I tried since running Linux that I actually upgraded to the same distro again.Jul 07 04:44
ThistleWebstill on kde 3.5Jul 07 04:45
ThistleWebas I said, I've been converted to gtk apps now, so I'd be hard pushed to switch to qt. I've also been converted to .deb based distros so an .rpm base would be a hard sell tooJul 07 04:45
neighborlee4.x really is nice far really enjoying it...Jul 07 04:46
ThistleWebI try to have my whole desktop either GTK or QT depending on the DE I'm usingJul 07 04:46
WillPCLinuxOS sounds a lot like its parent, Mandriva.  Started off strong, lost its way, trying to make a comebackJul 07 04:47
ThistleWebmy only exceptions are smplayer, vlc, skype and opera on my gtk desktopJul 07 04:47
ThistleWebyou know the relationship with mandriva?Jul 07 04:47
neighborleemandriva does alot right..sadly some not so right but as a OS goes its amazingJul 07 04:47
ThistleWebconnection is probs a better wordJul 07 04:47
neighborleeIF they were not mired in mono, I might well be using them RIGHt nowJul 07 04:47
Willtrue, it isn't quite like Debian/UbuntuJul 07 04:47
neighborleeI loved their urpmX toolsJul 07 04:47
neighborleeso fedora is the next best, keeping me safe from harms way, away from debian/ubuntu follyJul 07 04:48
WillI liked apt-get, synaptic better than urpmiJul 07 04:48
ThistleWebsome of the mandarke devs didn't like where mandrake was headed when it became mandriva, and forked pclinuxos is the natural bloodline of mandrakeJul 07 04:49
Willah.  I didn't know thatJul 07 04:49
ThistleWebthats why it has a lot of mandrake stuff in itJul 07 04:49
WillMandrake 10.0 was my first linuxJul 07 04:49
ThistleWebit was my first glimpse of linux too, in my case 9.1Jul 07 04:50
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WillNot counting a weeklong stint with FC1 that ended badlyJul 07 04:50
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ThistleWebpclinux is an odd one too, on eone hand it;s rpm, on the other it uses synapticJul 07 04:52
Willdoes 2009 use network manager?Jul 07 04:52
ThistleWeblast time I used it, the repos were quite small (compared to debian) but then the debian repos are HUGE, so that's not saying muchJul 07 04:52
ThistleWebdunnoJul 07 04:52
Willok.Jul 07 04:53
ThistleWebon the other hand I've noticed a lot of lib files in debian count towards the total, so there are plenty of packages which dont really do anything on their ownJul 07 04:53
Willgotta go for now.Jul 07 04:54
ThistleWebwhen you take that into account, the debian number seems highJul 07 04:54
ThistleWebcyaJul 07 04:54
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ThistleWebbblJul 07 05:16
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twitterI'm having a hell of a time finding a linux netbook for sale.Jul 07 05:41
twitterDell has one but it's expensive and they won't promise it will work with ekiga and skypeJul 07 05:41
twitterJ&R music world "linux netbook" and "ubuntu netbook" are frequent enough searches that they auto complete but they return zero results.Jul 07 05:43
twitter"Acer linux netbook" returns 29 netbooks with XP and VistaJul 07 05:43 won't even load in Iceweasel 3.0.6Jul 07 05:44
twitterWalmart tells me "Acer recommends Windows Vista® Home Premium" - fuckers.Jul 07 05:46
macabe_Walmart is trying to get rid of the Acer 11.6 netbooks @ $398. Its still going to backfire.Jul 07 05:49
macabe_Comes with atom z520 (very underpowered 1.13mhz), 2gb RAM, 250gb hddJul 07 05:50
macabe_Video streaming really sucks on this model cause of cpu and intel GMA500.Jul 07 05:52
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twitterah 07 06:04
twitterwallet says, no!Jul 07 06:04
twitterbetter 07 06:07
macabe_Wouldn't buy it. The selling point was the 11.6" screen, else it's slower than the 10.1" oneJul 07 06:08
macabe_and worse it comes with vista home premium.Jul 07 06:09
twitterI need to look around some more.Jul 07 06:12
twitterthe big box places suck.Jul 07 06:12
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mrguserHelloJul 07 08:30
kentmahiJul 07 08:31
mrguserms said anybody can implement c# and cli without licence from themJul 07 08:32
mrguser 07 08:32
mrguserbut mono has "a lot more than c# and cli"Jul 07 08:32
mrguserOf course novell has patent protection for,, winforms and othersJul 07 08:33
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[_goblin] BT not deploying Phorm? #phorm #btJul 07 08:38
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[_goblin] So #Torchwood has returned? I caught the repeat on BBC3. Quite good but certainly not IMO as great as many seem to think.Jul 07 08:38
kentmaTorchwood is pretty good, I think, but as it says on the tin, it's an adult Doctor Who...Jul 07 08:39
mitsuhikomrguser: same rule applies to libraries you might use with the jvmJul 07 08:43
mitsuhikoi'm pretty sure miguel will find a solution for ado and asp, because microsoft is interested in x-platform support there (and partially open sourced it), but i can't see any real-world advantage in writing new applications for winformsJul 07 08:44
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-BNc/#boycottnovell-[popey] Closing Terminator (terminal app) in Ubuntu Karmic 9.10 I got a notification that made me smile :)Jul 07 08:53
mrgusermitsushiko, i haven't heard of any patent problems with jvmJul 07 09:18
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Lichhi allJul 07 09:19
mrguserand i haven't heard of sun sueing others for their patents regarding jvmJul 07 09:19
mrguserAnd you want me to treat ms and sun equally, yes, they are corporations, but have quite different historiesJul 07 09:23
LichIs it me or are some web hosts microsoft servants?Jul 07 09:27
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-BNc/#boycottnovell-[_goblin] Chrome Beta for Linux has just been updated! Bookmarks manager now working!....thats the first new feature Ive found.... #chrome #linuxJul 07 09:38
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mitsuhikomrguser: my name is mitsuhiko, and there are patents on *every* software out there with more than 20k lines of codeJul 07 09:55
mitsuhikothere are tons of libraries people use with the jvm that are covered by patentsJul 07 09:55
MinceRwho has sun licensed those patents to?Jul 07 09:56
MinceRand under what terms?Jul 07 09:57
trmanco 07 09:57
MinceRas for the  .net/mono news item: any "promise" from m$ is perfectly worthless unless it's _legally binding_Jul 07 09:58
MinceRtheir "promise" does seem to be, though. (IANAL)Jul 07 09:59
MinceRthe news item says they "will" be applying it. so we'll see what happens.Jul 07 10:00
mitsuhikoMinceR: it is legaly binding, get your facts straightJul 07 10:24
maxstirner1is roy on holiday?Jul 07 10:25
mitsuhikomaxstirner1: he sits in his think-tank thinking about new arguments against monoJul 07 10:28
maxstirner1i sincerely hope so..Jul 07 10:29
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_Hicham_Hi schestowitz!Jul 07 11:35
mitsuhiko_Hicham_: no schestowitz hereJul 07 11:40
_Hicham_mitshiko : where is he? on vacation already?Jul 07 11:41
mitsuhikohopefully somewhere where he can't do any damageJul 07 11:43
_Hicham_mitsuhiko : why do u say that ? is he nervous  ?Jul 07 11:45
mitsuhikohe's harmful, that's what he isJul 07 11:46
_Hicham_mitsuhiko : he has never been harmful, he says the truthJul 07 11:47
_Hicham_mitsuhiko : are u a mono developer?Jul 07 11:47
mitsuhiko_Hicham_: still angry on mono, now that it's under the community promisse?Jul 07 11:48
mitsuhikoor what are the arguments now?Jul 07 11:48
_Hicham_the arguments are the sameJul 07 11:49
_Hicham_nothing to trust from microsoftJul 07 11:49
mitsuhiko_Hicham_: there are some talented programmers that try to resolve that problem with non FUD, so you might want to check out david siegels blog postJul 07 11:49
mitsuhiko 07 11:49
mitsuhikothat's a starting pointJul 07 11:49
_Hicham_there is already great alternatives to monoJul 07 11:54
_Hicham_for instance valaJul 07 11:54
_Hicham_vala have almost the C# syntax minus the bloated runtimeJul 07 11:55
mitsuhiko_Hicham_: [ ] you are a developerJul 07 11:57
mitsuhikoit's not the syntax that mattersJul 07 11:57
mitsuhikoit's what you can do with the runtimeJul 07 11:57
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oiaohm  Interesting shift.Jul 07 14:16
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neighborlee < interesting tooJul 07 14:20
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[davidgerard] Wikimedia blog: BibleBay! 07 14:23
neighborlee < by Aysgarth on Tue Jul 07, 2009 9:33 pm  < also interestingJul 07 14:26
neighborleeThe only use for Silverlight I have come across is the Playboy Archive. < HA intriguing outlook on all things silverlight ;)Jul 07 14:27
Ngsilverlight was used for the obama inauguration afairJul 07 14:28
neighborleeand thats just fine ;)Jul 07 14:28
NgI'd like to see an actual breakdown of what Mono currently implements and is working on implementing in the future, that falls outside the ECMA specsJul 07 14:28
neighborleeno one ever said obama was perfect ;)(Jul 07 14:28
Ngafaict it's all very uninteresting stuff that can be packaged separately, kept in non-free type repositories, and generally ignored by the vast majority of usersJul 07 14:28
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twitterSome things never change.  It's new Windows version time.  Just like spring flowers, the exploit descriptions are popping up in the Wintel press with promises of protection in the new versions.Jul 07 14:58
twitter-> According to Microsoft, the component itself does not have any legitimate use, and the flaw is believed to exist only in Windows XP and Windows Server 2003 systems. Windows Vista and Server 2008 are not believed to be vulnerable to the attack.Jul 07 14:58
twitter 07 14:58
twitterForecast:  Loud and Trolly through December: 07 15:01
twitterThey still think people will pay hundreds of dollars for an OS.Jul 07 15:04
neighborlee' For example, if you want to be able to access your PC via remote desktop, you have to stump up the cash for Professional . But consider whether you really need to spend extra cash for a feature that you can add for free ( tightVNC ). '< haha thats great : ie: to windows 7 or not : for widows  updaters that is ;-=Jul 07 15:05
neighborlee < hereJul 07 15:05
twitterDvorac laughs at this too.,2817,2349780,00.aspJul 07 15:05
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twitter-> There is a sense of larceny when one witnesses this sort of scam. The Ultimate product is coded. It is finished. Why is Microsoft taking features out of the product after they have been designed in? Is the company doing it to create a totally artificial line up of different products for different markets? Apparently so, but why? The Ultimate product would have serviced all these markets in the first place.Jul 07 15:06
neighborlee' Remember, Microsoft relies on naive users being dissatisfied with the lower-specced editions of Windows to boost revenues. ' hmmmmmmm :))Jul 07 15:06
twitterIt relies on OEM strangulation.Jul 07 15:07
neighborleemaybe he is just FUD'ing around..he hates M$!!!!Jul 07 15:07
neighborlee:)Jul 07 15:07
neighborleetwitter, quiteJul 07 15:07
neighborleecompare that to linux, and its easy to see why they think we are a cancer ;))Jul 07 15:07
neighborleeand want to infect us.Jul 07 15:07
neighborleemake us part of their pact of .net users so we all look the same to the outside world...hmmmmmmmJul 07 15:08
twitterVista 7 will be the end of them.Jul 07 15:08
twitterIt's going to flop worse than Vista did.Jul 07 15:08
neighborleejust end to a unjust organizationJul 07 15:09
wallclimbergood morning!Jul 07 15:09
neighborleehi there ;0-Jul 07 15:10
neighborleeso what has you climbing the walls ;))Jul 07 15:10
wallclimberi paint murals, sometimesJul 07 15:10
wallclimberso i have to climb ladders and scaffoldsJul 07 15:11
twitterHere's a criticism almost as good as my failure log. 07 15:11
wallclimberyesterday's attempts to install linux on my friend's old computer wasn't successful.  It was my first experience where at least one distro didn't work. It was a little frustrating.Jul 07 15:12
twitterArticle after article about how to make Windows suck less.  How to disable features that annoy and where to get the 20 or so utilities that make it do anything useful.Jul 07 15:12
wallclimberso that had me climbing the walls a bit :)Jul 07 15:12
twittersome that even claim they can stop the damn thing from crashing.Jul 07 15:12
twitterWindows is always the same trash.Jul 07 15:13
twitterGarbage pail sales climb sky high, like a giant dildo crushing the sun. 07 15:20
wallclimbertwitter, do you think win 7 will be released on schedule - October '09?Jul 07 15:21
twitter->  Windows 7 Professional is going for $99, down from $199. That's good news for Microsoft, which saw Windows sales fall 16% in the most recent quarter.Jul 07 15:21
twitterSales down are "strong"?  Ha ha.Jul 07 15:21
neighborleewallclimber, fitting then ;)))Jul 07 15:22
twitterIt's like Vista all over again.  Windows 7 Capable, channel stuffing, and a little fanboy spurt of sales, all to be followed by massive disappointment and money loss.Jul 07 15:23
twitterRemember that late October launch date.  M$ promises not to fail this time.Jul 07 15:24
neighborleesorry was reading about 16 year old who..well was         out of her mind on one day shall we say..using dog as attack weapon while claiming the right to killl it as it was her 'right'...EEK gad  makes you wonder how kids like that , turn out that way...I hope dog isn't euthanized and that she gets help not a slap on wrist ;0-Jul 07 15:24
neighborlee 07 15:24
twitterno problem, you did not miss anything important.Jul 07 15:25
twitterThe MicroTards make buying a computer a real pain in the ass.Jul 07 15:26
twitterI'm hesitant to even buy a netbook, because I'm not sure any of them come with hardware that does not need non free drivers.Jul 07 15:27
twitterEven Ausus has been accused of GPL violations.Jul 07 15:27
twitterI really don't want a laptop that won't just work with Debian out of the box.Jul 07 15:28
twitterSo, I cling to my ancient Thinkpad.Jul 07 15:28
neighborleekk :))Jul 07 15:28
twitterbblJul 07 15:29
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neighborleeasus huhJul 07 15:29
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wallclimbersadly, he has a point about hardware.  it's a shame that hardware companies don't allow their products to work with all operating systemsJul 07 15:32
wallclimberthat was the frustration we ran into yesterday.  i was astounded that none of the systems we tried workedJul 07 15:33
wallclimbernot even ubuntuJul 07 15:33
neighborleeyesJul 07 15:34
neighborleeon whatJul 07 15:34
wallclimberit was a desktop, not a name brand, just a mish-mash of partsJul 07 15:35
neighborleeahJul 07 15:35
wallclimberit had been running xpsp3Jul 07 15:35
neighborleeyeah some hardware can be  iffyJul 07 15:35
wallclimberMSI board, 1GB memory, Creative soundblaster live sound, radeon 9200 videoJul 07 15:37
neighborleeweirdJul 07 15:37
wallclimberi thought it would be an easy installJul 07 15:37
neighborleewhat didn't workJul 07 15:37
neighborleeas in errors etc.Jul 07 15:37
wallclimberno errors came up, but the four live cds we tried all ended up not working, at some pointJul 07 15:38
wallclimberi tried all the cds on my own computers and they worked fineJul 07 15:38
neighborleeouchJul 07 15:39
neighborleenot much to go on, but sorry that happened regardless o_0Jul 07 15:40
wallclimberwolvix didn't work at all, xubuntu did fine, but the display wasJul 07 15:40
wallclimberconstantly "adjusting" itselfJul 07 15:41
neighborleeive heard of ati woes, yes.Jul 07 15:41
neighborleeand thats a old 'ish cardJul 07 15:41
neighborleeso yeahJul 07 15:41
neighborleestill..EEKJul 07 15:41
neighborleeyeah very oldJul 07 15:42
wallclimberi kept thinking that once something was installed weJul 07 15:42
wallclimbercould get it all fixedJul 07 15:42
neighborleeyeah ;(*Jul 07 15:42
wallclimberso we decided on xubuntu, but it would freeze and never even got to the point letting usJul 07 15:43
wallclimberpartitionJul 07 15:43
wallclimbermandriva did similarJul 07 15:44
wallclimberplain ubuntu did the best, but still hit a point where it would hang endlesslyJul 07 15:44
wallclimberi just told my friend we'd try again laterJul 07 15:44
wallclimberone thing ubuntu did that i really likedJul 07 15:45
wallclimberall of the live cds would hang at one point or another, and there is no graceful way to get out of it, except turn the computer offJul 07 15:45 much as I dislike their  ideology, they 'might' be linux best shot at desktop least send them a bug report.Jul 07 15:46
neighborleevery odd yes..I suspect somethign VERY proprietary about your moboJul 07 15:46
wallclimberbut with ubuntu, when i pushed the off button, popped up aJul 07 15:46
neighborleethat linux doesnt know about 'yet'..but being older , thats a bit surprisingJul 07 15:47
wallclimberbox that allowed us to shut it down correctly...niceJul 07 15:47
neighborleeyup niceJul 07 15:47
wallclimberi've gotten some really old computers to work beforeJul 07 15:47
wallclimberthis one really had me stumpedJul 07 15:47
neighborleeyupJul 07 15:47
wallclimberthe only hardware i had no experience with was the radeonJul 07 15:48
wallclimberanyway, sorry to rambleJul 07 15:48
wallclimbernot looking for help, just scratching my head over it allJul 07 15:49
wallclimbermy friend wasn't disappointed, he seemed okay with it allJul 07 15:50
neighborleewallclimber, please check your PM :)Jul 07 15:51
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Impor05Hi guysJul 07 16:05
Impor05then it is safe now to use monoJul 07 16:06
neighborlee 07 16:06
neighborleeImpor05, I remain cautiously optimisticJul 07 16:07
Impor05I'm just waiting for your green light to put my hands on monoJul 07 16:07
neighborleeImpor05, how can you now, knowing WHO this is coming from ?Jul 07 16:07
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neighborleeImpor05, how can you not, knowing WHO this is coming from ....Jul 07 16:07
neighborleeo_0Jul 07 16:07
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mitsuhikoneighborlee: because there is a thing called lawJul 07 16:16
neighborleemake your pointJul 07 16:16
neighborleeive done some reading..and its not a  cinched thing from whatm im seeingJul 07 16:17
neighborleeIll wait till I hear more thx.Jul 07 16:17
neighborleelike Isaid..who its coming from makes it very suspect.Jul 07 16:18
neighborleewould you really blame anyone for feeling that way ?Jul 07 16:18
mitsuhikoneighborlee: to be humble, i'm quite fed up with defending mono over and over againJul 07 16:23
neighborleewell..Jul 07 16:23
mitsuhikowhere exactly is the problem with the community promise?Jul 07 16:23
neighborleeI'd not have minded SO much,if not for their style thereofJul 07 16:23
neighborleebut yeahJul 07 16:23
neighborleedid you mean bashing, or defending?Jul 07 16:23
mitsuhikoneighborlee: i'm none of the boycott novell guysJul 07 16:24
mitsuhikoi'm a developer and love the possibilities mono gives meJul 07 16:24
neighborleethenyou prob. meant bashingJul 07 16:24
neighborleeyup bashingJul 07 16:24
neighborleefine-Jul 07 16:24
neighborleeyour choiceJul 07 16:24
mitsuhikoneighborlee: bashing what?Jul 07 16:24
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mitsuhikodon't put words in my mouth ladJul 07 16:25
nicktasticmitsuhiko: afaik the promise covers the standards. Mono implements non-standard APIs that are not protected by the promise. And I don't know if a 'promise' is legally binding.Jul 07 16:27
mitsuhikonicktastic: yes a promise is legally binding and it cannot be revokedJul 07 16:27
mitsuhikoand why would anyone in the linux world care for the non-standard apis from microsoft?Jul 07 16:27
mitsuhikothe nonstandard apis serve the same purpose wine does,Jul 07 16:28
nicktasticTalk to the Mono people.Jul 07 16:28
mitsuhikoabout what?Jul 07 16:28
nicktasticAbout your questionJul 07 16:28
mitsuhikonicktastic: which question?=Jul 07 16:28
nicktastic...Jul 07 16:28
mitsuhikonicktastic: maybe you should read up what rhetorical questions areJul 07 16:29
mitsuhikonicktastic: repeat after me: nobody in the linux world cares about asp.netJul 07 16:29
mitsuhikoor $otherlibraryJul 07 16:29
nicktasticYou're mistakenJul 07 16:30
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mitsuhikonicktastic: elaborateJul 07 16:30
rubenvso, what's up with the microsoft promise?Jul 07 16:30
nicktasticI don't care enough to go into it, suffice it to say that it is improbable, to say the least, that 'no one in the linux world' cares about the non-standard APIs.Jul 07 16:31
mitsuhikonicktastic: if you want to use the microsoft apis that's your thingJul 07 16:31
mitsuhikoneither debian nor ubuntu ship with themJul 07 16:31
nicktasticOkJul 07 16:31
rubenvI guess we can safely use the pure C# now for linux applications?Jul 07 16:32
mitsuhikoroy was (and i suppose he will continue) bashing the whole projectsJul 07 16:32
mitsuhiko-sJul 07 16:32
BobSpritewhat do standard or non-standard API's have to do with mono, or WINE .Jul 07 16:32
mitsuhikoBobSprite: if someone implements other microsoft apis and infringes patents, there is no protection from microsoft's sideJul 07 16:33
mitsuhikowhich makes a lot of sense, because the same thing is the case for literally any software project out thereJul 07 16:33
neighborleerubenv, dont count your chickens just  yet...others are NOT so sure.Jul 07 16:34
BobSpritethats right, and thats regardless of what programming language you useJul 07 16:34
neighborleerubenv, 07 16:34
neighborlee 07 16:34
mitsuhikorubenv: yes, mono is fine and always wasJul 07 16:34
neighborleemitsuhiko, wrongJul 07 16:35
mitsuhikoneighborlee: wrongJul 07 16:35
neighborlee' mono can only be downloaded from novel 'Jul 07 16:35
neighborleeyou call that right ???Jul 07 16:35
mitsuhikowhich is wrongJul 07 16:35
neighborleepaleaseJul 07 16:35
neighborleefrom goldfarb himself <Jul 07 16:35
mitsuhikoneighborlee: apt-get install mono and your myth is debunkedJul 07 16:36
neighborleelolJul 07 16:36
rubenvso that means mono apps are now safe to add by default?Jul 07 16:36
neighborlee <have fun with this one mitsuhikoJul 07 16:36
BobSpritehow much arguing came from there to keep mono out of Distro's, and now you complain its not easy to get ?Jul 07 16:36
mitsuhikoneighborlee: moonlight != monoJul 07 16:37
mitsuhikoneighborlee: and moonlight ships with microsoft patented video codecsJul 07 16:37
mitsuhikothat's a completely different storyJul 07 16:37
neighborleeyes and its restricted in fedora...yes we know all about itJul 07 16:37
neighborleemove onJul 07 16:37
rubenvit doesn't ship with itJul 07 16:37
rubenvget the facts rightJul 07 16:37
mitsuhikoneighborlee: you can compile a moonlight build without microsoft codecsJul 07 16:38
mitsuhikowhat's your point?Jul 07 16:38
rubenvasks if you want to download it when they are neededJul 07 16:38
mitsuhikorubenv: right, but this is only possible in the version novell distributesJul 07 16:38
mitsuhikobecause of an agreement between microsoft and novellJul 07 16:38
mitsuhiko(the microsoft codec download)Jul 07 16:39
rubenvmitsuhiko: who cares?Jul 07 16:39
mitsuhikomay i remind you that codecs on linux are patented in general?Jul 07 16:39
rubenvwe can still use it for all our neat stuff that doesn't require those codecsJul 07 16:39
mitsuhikoit's not even clear that there are no submarine patents on theoraJul 07 16:39
rubenvand I live in europe, I don't give a crap about patentsJul 07 16:39
rubenvif the US wants to hold the world back, then that's fine, but we're not doing thatJul 07 16:40
cj 07 16:40
mitsuhiko <- muhaha. does not sound like the commenters understand what they are readingJul 07 16:40
cjmitsuhiko: you seem rational and well informed.  you must be a troll.Jul 07 16:41
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mitsuhikoneighborlee: there are some more profund discussions about that topic on other parts of the internet, the link you're posted, not so muchJul 07 16:41
cjmitsuhiko: heh, I had that conversation (theora + patents) with miguel a year and a half ago.  I was arguing that it was the one true way and was just nonplussed by his insistence that it may not be.Jul 07 16:42
neighborleemitsuhiko, apparantly,,iyho ? ;)(Jul 07 16:43
neighborlee fine :)Jul 07 16:43
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neighborleeas if there aren't alternat ives TO MONO, that have existed for way longer and ones currently in lets not even go thereJul 07 16:44
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BobSpriteEurope may not have software patents, but if they breach an US software patent, they will have to take action to remover it or face court action,Jul 07 16:45
neighborleeyes and M$ is fighting for such things as we speakJul 07 16:45
neighborleethe great foss supporter..yes they rock dont theyJul 07 16:45
neighborleeopenxml, ISO, odf,,,shall I go on ?Jul 07 16:45
neighborleeso no,,I wont rush 'yet' to accept their divine promise.Jul 07 16:46
neighborlee:)Jul 07 16:46
neighborleeoh lets not forget that linux is a cancer.Jul 07 16:46
neighborlee:)(Jul 07 16:47
macabe_Microsoft promised not to sue on FAT yet they did.Jul 07 16:47
neighborleeexactamongoJul 07 16:47
neighborleeOIN realy came to rescueJul 07 16:47
neighborleeo_)Jul 07 16:47
BobSpritewhere did they promise not to sue on FAT ?Jul 07 16:48
macabe_ 07 16:48
BobSprite"below, Microsoft grants to you the following non-exclusive, worldwide, royalty-free, non-transferable, non-sublicenseable,"Jul 07 16:50
BobSpritesee the "Sub-license" there, thats what tomtom did, they broke that agreement.Jul 07 16:51
mitsuhikoneighborlee: if you can find alternatives to mono people would accept as alternatives, let me knowJul 07 16:51
mitsuhikomacabe_: they promised?Jul 07 16:52
BobSpriteread that link, it was not MS against the GPL it was MS against TOMTOM for sub-licensing their specification, against the specification agreement.Jul 07 16:53
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macabe_Covenant not to sue kind've sounds like a promise.Jul 07 16:54
BobSpritenot to sue, as long as you abide by the agreement, if you do not abide by the agreement, they will act against you.Jul 07 16:55
neighborleemitsuhiko, shock..people still use python to make apps,,and to program game ....oh wait c++ hmm a intriguing notion which backs up spirit!Jul 07 16:55
neighborleevalaJul 07 16:55
BobSpriteIt does not say "you can do what you like and we wont sue"Jul 07 16:55
mitsuhikoneighborlee: that's not the pointJul 07 16:56
mitsuhikopython is doing something completely different than monoJul 07 16:56
mitsuhikomono is a platform, python is often cpython with a crappy vmJul 07 16:56
BobSprite"(a) Provided that you comply with all terms and conditions of this Agreement and subject to the limitations in Sections 1(c) - (f) below, Microsoft grants to you the following non-exclusive, worldwide, royalty-free, non-transferable, non-sublicenseable license under any copyrights owned or licensable by Microsoft without payment of consideration to unaffiliated third parties,"Jul 07 16:59
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Darkhack_I've been really suspicious of MS lately.  Why would they sue over a frivilous patent on an ancient technology like FAT, but be so open about Mono/.NET?Jul 07 17:00
mitsuhikoDarkhack_: they just needed something against tomtomJul 07 17:02
macabe_BobSprite: That is where I'm puzzled with licencing. Microsoft states one thing in bold caps yet modifies the heck out of it in small case.Jul 07 17:02
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BobSpritewe'll FAT is everywhere, its used in USB sticks and camera's and the like, its probably quite a nice MS money spinner.Jul 07 17:02
Darkhack_Do other companies pay royalties on FAT and TomTom was the exception or were most companies doing like TomTom and not paying for FAT?Jul 07 17:03
mitsuhikoDarkhack_: the main culprit was not fatJul 07 17:03
neighborleeDarkhack_, yeah as if,,today we trust m$ with open arms..we aren't all naive.Jul 07 17:03
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mitsuhikotomtom did not pay any licensing fees to microsoftJul 07 17:03
mitsuhikoand microsoft tried to make them pay for more than five yearsJul 07 17:03
BobSpriteand with C# its just a programming language, but the is a set of library apps and use coded for a specific frameworkJul 07 17:03
neighborleeperfect world 101 !=current day..not there yet and certainly not by M$'s example.Jul 07 17:03
neighborleeso you will excuse anyone that remains cautious I hopeJul 07 17:04
neighborlee:)Jul 07 17:04
BobSpriteif your wait for perfection, you'll live in perpetual dissipointment.Jul 07 17:04
Darkhack_The thing is that I wouldn't necessarily fault someone for accepting Mono... but I do fault them for doing it so openly and easily.  Some people in the FOSS community aren't even *slightly* suspicious.Jul 07 17:04
mitsuhikoand the tomtom case shows that if you refuse to pay licensing fees *and* refuse to reimplement the affected parts of the software you will be suedJul 07 17:04
mitsuhikonot only by microsoftJul 07 17:04
neighborleeBobSprite, we dont wait..we innnovateJul 07 17:05
mitsuhikoDarkhack_: they just know the risksJul 07 17:05
neighborleelike gnote, vala..yaddaJul 07 17:05
BobSpritetell you the truth the state of the art of computer science is well behind that of hardware technology.Jul 07 17:06
neighborleeDarkhack_, there is no fault or blame in not knowing risks out of percieved necessityJul 07 17:06
neighborleeDarkhack_, therein comes the part of those who know more and arent afraid to speak outJul 07 17:06
BobSpritec, C++, C# are all still quite primitive, allthough fully OOP languages are getting better.Jul 07 17:07
Darkhack_Primitive in comparison to what?Jul 07 17:07
BobSpritewhat it should be in 2009,  take a look at something like LabVIEW, but C# and ADA are starting to improve on things.Jul 07 17:09
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Darkhack_I'd really like to see the EU go after MS for falsely claiming ODF compliance.Jul 07 17:11
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NgDarkhack_: how is that anything to do with the EU?!Jul 07 18:11
BobSpritevery little, but some see the EU as their sherriff, or stand-over go too guys.Jul 07 18:30
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-BNc/#boycottnovell-[davidgerard] RT @suw Don't ever do these in a short story if you don't want the editor ordering a hit on you. Ever. 07 19:33
trmanco 07 19:37
trmanco"Install Microsoft Silverlight"Jul 07 19:37
trmancosure right away...Jul 07 19:37
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amd-linuxIs Roy back from vacation?Jul 07 19:41
trmancono, not yetJul 07 19:42
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[trmanco] Um gajo já nao pode ver o funeral do Michael Jackson sem ter a merda do sivlerlight agora? -> 07 19:43
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[trmanco] Ninguem sabe de nenhuma alternativa, de preferencia um stream em OGG? Flash também serve...Jul 07 19:43
amd-linuxwell, over at Icazas blog, some freaks are really disgusting. I always try to keep discussions non personal but there, they really go below the beltJul 07 19:43
_Hicham_trmanco : should i install silverlight to see Michael Jackson funerals ?Jul 07 19:44
trmanconoJul 07 19:45
amd-linuxthe MS promise not to sue regarding Mono is such an obvious marketing stunt that even a non-lawyer can see exposeJul 07 19:46
trmancothey promised what we already knowJul 07 19:46
amd-linuxa promise not to sue is worthless when you sell the respective IP.... non binding for a purchaserJul 07 19:46
trmancoC# is a ECMA standard that we already knewJul 07 19:47
amd-linuxand it covers only certain versions and only full implementation - I am no GPL expert but that obviouslyJul 07 19:47
amd-linuxcollides with GPLJul 07 19:47
trmancothe problem remains with winforms and the rest of patented covered stuffJul 07 19:47
amd-linuxwhat really makes me think is the disgusting tone over there in Icazas blogJul 07 19:48
amd-linuxcomments are not moderated in which people personally get defamated - if I were attacked, I would sue IcazaJul 07 19:49
_Hicham_I am still thinking how Icaza can make money from MonoJul 07 19:49
amd-linuxhe makes money from Novel=Micro-SoftJul 07 19:49
_Hicham_Microsoft should have spent really a horrible amount of money to get mono to its current state thenJul 07 19:50
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amd-linuxwell, maybe Icaza really believes in what he says, could be possible. Maybe he is naive enough t believeJul 07 19:51
amd-linuxwhat his contacts at MS sell to him as MS policyJul 07 19:51
amd-linuxnot seeing that he is a tool for themJul 07 19:52
_Hicham_no, he can't be naiveJul 07 19:52
amd-linuxit is sad because he seems to be a talented programmerJul 07 19:53
amd-linuxfalling prey to the dark side of powerJul 07 19:53
_Hicham_he is very talented in factJul 07 19:54
_Hicham_he is in love with RedmondJul 07 19:54
amd-linuxno, with some guys in RedmondJul 07 19:54
amd-linuxand I am sure that his contacts are honest but theyJul 07 19:54
amd-linuxdo not represent MicrosoftJul 07 19:55
amd-linuxif things come down, Ballmer will sue and fight with everything he has, even if the .Net guys do not plan any attackJul 07 19:55
amd-linuxstrange that an intelligent person like Icaza does not see thisJul 07 19:56
*amarsh04 wonders why wallclimber had trouble with the linux install - maybe problems with the cd drive?Jul 07 19:58
amarsh04running a soundblaster live and radeon 9200se here myselfJul 07 19:59
*amarsh04 wonders if any distros are set up to boot an install cd, then get most of the data off a USB drive (for cases when the machine can't boot from USB)Jul 07 20:00
amarsh04also, it would be interesting to know if Debian Lenny was triedJul 07 20:00
amarsh04if you have a fast internet connection, a Debian netinstall can be quicker than a cd installJul 07 20:01
twitterMepis still has the fastest install that I know of.Jul 07 20:02
twitterIt is Debian based again.Jul 07 20:02
twitterMepis is image based with good hardware recognition.  If it works off LiveCD, the install takes about 15 minutes.Jul 07 20:03
mitsuhikoamd-linux: probably because he knows how patent laws workJul 07 20:03
mitsuhikonot only that, also because he knows how politics workJul 07 20:03
amarsh04Debian also release weekly snapshot netinstall imagesJul 07 20:03
twitterNet install is a wonderful thing but configurability comes at the price of decision making time.Jul 07 20:04
twitterOnce you have Debian installed, it is trivial to duplicate.Jul 07 20:06
twitterIt is also not difficult to run your own repository.Jul 07 20:06
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twitterFor a small organization, running your own repository has great advantages, even if all you do is make meta packages.Jul 07 20:07
amarsh04great for a standard installation for the organisationJul 07 20:07
twitterStandard installs.  Base + useful packages depending on job.  Free software is wonderfully flexible like that.Jul 07 20:11
twitterCompare that to license counting and BSA raids you see in the non free software world.  Pity the organization that decides who gets what software based on budget constraints rather than business needs.Jul 07 20:12
macabe_We've been re-imaging a lot of used machines in a community project and the local repository sounds like a good suggestion.Jul 07 20:13
twitterHmph,  -> migueldeicaza  19 hours ago Facts have never prevented Roy from making something up.   That is not about to change.   If anything, this will be presented as irrefutable proof of the existence of the body snatchersJul 07 20:15
twitterKind of contradicts his previous statement ->  Astute readers will point out that Mono contains much more than the ECMA standards, and they will be rightJul 07 20:15
_Hicham_twitter is one of the biggest trolls in the worldJul 07 20:19
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twitterI left Miguel a little comment to that effect.  Now, back to work I go.Jul 07 20:29
hexxso ugh, what's going on... is the site coming back online?Jul 07 20:29
macabe_A defeat for software patents in the US is a defeat for software patents worldwide. Please visit 07 20:31
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SubsonicBgood evening everyoneJul 07 22:10
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[davidgerard] NotN: Palin: I can replace Jackson in your hearts 07 22:13
SubsonicBThis Palin, I assume: 07 22:17
LnsZombie moose are coolJul 07 22:19
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SubsonicB 07 22:19
MinceRimpalin'Jul 07 22:23
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[davidgerard] DW/LJ: 100 percent naked, unless you count a tiara as clothing. 07 22:38
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yuhong 07 22:49
yuhongWhat do you think?Jul 07 22:49
yuhongI'd trust IBM's patent promises for Free software more than MS's.Jul 07 22:50
NgI think the community promise reads like a pretty binding legal statement, but I think what you are asking for requires a lawyer, which I am not :)Jul 07 22:54
Ngas nothing more than an observer of the whole affair this seems like a win for everyone?Jul 07 22:55
Ngthe anti-mono people get some kind of clarity on the legal position, the pro-mono people get to tell the anti-mono they can stop whining now ;)Jul 07 22:56
SubsonicB"Despite the constant ideological friction between Microsoft and the Linux community, Microsoft is increasingly embracing open source"Jul 07 22:56
neighborleeyuhong, if this promise read anything like the bad news the FSF lawyer found in moonlight , then no..from what Im seeing from others its likely in that ballpark..I woud take it aLOT more serious, if MS apologized for its cancer comment,its ooxml overtaking of a  standardization document format and in general started acting like a grownup instead of a rich brat...then my head would turn some ;)Jul 07 22:56
neighborleeNg, you can just stop thatJul 07 22:56
SubsonicByou know what comes afterwards... extend... extinguish...Jul 07 22:56
Ngneighborlee: ?Jul 07 22:56
blankthemuffinyuhong, What so an irrevocable, royalty free patent licence is still not good enough? Seems like you guys are in it for the anti-microsoft rather than trying to get it fixed.Jul 07 22:57
neighborleeNg, it wasn't cute the,,and I hate to  break the news to you, it aint cute now.Jul 07 22:57
Ngneighborlee: what are you talking about?Jul 07 22:57
neighborleeNg, how dare you try to paint everyone with a wide brushJul 07 22:57
neighborleeNg, who do you think you are ?Jul 07 22:57
SubsonicB 07 22:57
Ngneighborlee: oh I'm sorry, did you miss the ";)" on the end of my comment/Jul 07 22:58
Ng-/+?Jul 07 22:58
neighborleeNg, you mean the smiley as you stab the knife in ?Jul 07 22:58
neighborleepffJul 07 22:58
Ngneighborlee: please stop being defensive :)Jul 07 22:58
neighborleehey they were your words, not mine.Jul 07 22:59
neighborleeyou take them back ?Jul 07 22:59
NgnopeJul 07 22:59
blankthemuffinof course it's a victory for microsoft, more people will embrace their programming language. It will be taken seriously as a cross platform language rather than a microsoft only toy.Jul 07 22:59
neighborleethen neither do I.Jul 07 22:59
neighborleepfftJul 07 22:59
Ngneighborlee: what cancer comment of microsoft's is preventing you from accepting their legal position, out of interest?Jul 07 22:59
neighborleeoh palease get realJul 07 22:59
Ngit's a genuine question, I've not heard of whatever it is you're referring toJul 07 22:59
SubsonicB"Microsoft" and " taken seriously as a cross platform" can't match in the same sentenceJul 07 23:00
blankthemuffinHere we go, SubsonicB, another example of hate for no reason. "Oh it's microsoft it must be bad!"Jul 07 23:00
SubsonicBhate for no reason?Jul 07 23:01
neighborleeblankthemuffin, thats nonsense, and you know itJul 07 23:01
SubsonicBno doubt you were born yesterday.Jul 07 23:01
yuhongAgreed that is certainly nonsense.Jul 07 23:01
neighborleeblankthemuffin, and we know why you say itJul 07 23:01
neighborleeblankthemuffin, but , you know what ?Jul 07 23:01
BobSpriteIBM was introuble with anti-trust DoJ people years before MS was ever thought of.Jul 07 23:01
neighborleeblankthemuffin, no one is buYING ITJul 07 23:01
neighborleepfftJul 07 23:02
blankthemuffinThey're not in it to advance linux, and why would they be. KDE and Gnome don't talk to each other so they make the other better. They do it so they can work together to get the messy stuff out of the way and focus on the things that matter between their competing systems.Jul 07 23:02
blankthemuffinSame with any companies which both implement common standards.Jul 07 23:02
SubsonicBthe things that matter between their competing systemsJul 07 23:02
SubsonicBand those are...Jul 07 23:02
BobSpriteIBM are in it because they need a cheap OS for their servers.Jul 07 23:02
NgI bet if you ask a lot of KDE and GNOME hackers they'd be perfectly happy to be helping each other get better, but whateverJul 07 23:03
SubsonicBbtw: what cross-platform think of any kind has Microsoft EVER produced?Jul 07 23:03
blankthemuffinI bet if you ask a lot of Microsoft people they'd be perfectly happy to help each other get better.Jul 07 23:03
BobSpriteXinixJul 07 23:03
NgSubsonicB: they write BASIC interpreters for a fair number of systemsJul 07 23:03
Ngs/write/wrote/Jul 07 23:03
SubsonicBsorry think->thingJul 07 23:03
BobSpriteFATJul 07 23:03
blankthemuffin.NET isn't there to be sold, it's to get developers into Windows. Making it easy to get programmers between linux and Windows means that the entry barrier is low and languages / frameworks are taken out of the equation.Jul 07 23:04
blankthemuffin.NET SubsonicB.Jul 07 23:04
SubsonicBwt-F?Jul 07 23:04
BobSpriteC and C++, and C#Jul 07 23:04
SubsonicB.NET only exists because they shoot themselves in the foot with Microsoft JavaJul 07 23:05
SubsonicBthey didn't quite succeed at EEEing Java so they had to make up an alternativeJul 07 23:05
SubsonicBvery similar to what happened with ODF->MSOOXMLJul 07 23:05
SubsonicBThey could not destroy a competing product that would render their PLATFORM irrelevant so instead they push their own Windows-only alternatives, applying as much ECMA (and twisted-arm ISO) lipstick on the pig as they canJul 07 23:08
BobSpritewhy hasnt java been ratified by a standards board ?Jul 07 23:08
NgBobSprite: they only ratify things submitted to them for ratification :)Jul 07 23:09
NgSun want to stay in control of JavaJul 07 23:09
SubsonicBWhat use has a standard nobody can implement without paying for Microsoft patents through the noseJul 07 23:09
SubsonicB?Jul 07 23:09
NgSubsonicB: ask the samba guys :)Jul 07 23:09
Ngthey bought the protocol documentation Microsoft was forced to release by the EU, and are making Samba able to completely replace Active Directory, and other people are making libmapi able to replace ExchangeJul 07 23:10
SubsonicBWhy are you so eager at advancing Microsoft agenda?Jul 07 23:10
Darkhack_When MS stops sueing people over FAT and quits ballot stuffing ISO, I'll take them far more seriously.  Until then, approach with caution.Jul 07 23:10
BobSpriteyes, but if it become popular it becomes a defacto standard and after time its usually accept as industry standard, in this case at least Mono is standard ratified and a undertaking that is very cleanJul 07 23:11
NgSubsonicB: me? I'm not eager at advancing anyone's agendaJul 07 23:11
neighborleeSubsonicB, because if linux embraces it, it embraces windows...and thats good PRJul 07 23:11
BobSpriteyes, when people vote they "stuff" their ballots in the box.Jul 07 23:11
SubsonicBWhy do mono proponents pushing so hard to see mono inserted as *default* in Debian and UbuntuJul 07 23:11
Darkhack_Personally, I don't think we should even use Mono for technical reasons alone.  Compiled code is always faster and more memory efficient and should be prefered over JITed languages.Jul 07 23:12
SubsonicBI would be more than happy that mono is jus an *optional* packageJul 07 23:12
NgSubsonicB: because they really like the applications that they can then shipJul 07 23:12
SubsonicBbut that seems to be not good enough for mono proponentsJul 07 23:12
NgSubsonicB: they aren't pro-mono as much as they are pro-Tomboy, pro-Banshee and pro-FSpotJul 07 23:12
Ngto generalise horriblyJul 07 23:12
BobSpriteI dont think mono proponents actually give a hood when you include or not.Jul 07 23:12
Darkhack_I've thought about porting Banshee or F-Spot to C/C++ just like the one developer did with GNote.Jul 07 23:12
SubsonicBI would rather see Debian and Ubuntu mono-free for the time beingJul 07 23:13
neighborleeDarkhack_, that or help make gthumb better..Jul 07 23:13
SubsonicBI mena mono-free in the default installationJul 07 23:13
NgSubsonicB: I think debian said they're not going to ship mono by defaultJul 07 23:13
SubsonicB*I mean*Jul 07 23:13
BobSpriteyour technical, you can remove itJul 07 23:13
neighborleeNg, urlJul 07 23:13
SubsonicBDebian already ships mono by default in the 1st Gnome CDJul 07 23:13
Ngperhaps I'm wrong, I thought I read a headline about it in my rss reader 8shrug*Jul 07 23:14
Darkhack_I'm using Xfce.  It's a lot like Gnome but without the Mono baggage, and I can't see any of the Xfce guys pushing for Mono any time soon.Jul 07 23:14
SubsonicBThere should be a mono-free *gnome* metapackage and another one called *gnome-plus-mono* so people know what they are installingJul 07 23:14
Ngbut ubuntu have certainly said that without a clear and present threat of litigation, or superior technology, the mono apps in the default install are staying thereJul 07 23:14
SubsonicBBad moveJul 07 23:14
Darkhack_I remember a couple years ago, Miguel de Icaza was actually pushing for Gnome developers to write Gnome 3.0 entirely in CJul 07 23:14
SubsonicBUbuntu resisted the patent rackettering Novell fell intoJul 07 23:15
Darkhack_I remember a couple years ago, Miguel de Icaza was actually pushing for Gnome developers to write Gnome 3.0 entirely in C# using Mono and no C/C++.Jul 07 23:15
BobSpritemabey some distro's can see the damage to the GPL is certain GPL'd code is not acceptable just because of who was involved in its development.Jul 07 23:15
SubsonicBUbuntu is a PITA for Microsoft since Dell OEM-installs itJul 07 23:15
BobSpriteMeaning your free to contribute to FOSS as long as we think your OK.Jul 07 23:15
SubsonicBMicrosoft wants Ubuntu with mono inside so it can extort patent royalties to any OEM who ships computer with it installedJul 07 23:16
SubsonicBmark my wordsJul 07 23:16
NgSubsonicB: how will they extort patent royalties after their Community Promise thing? I'm not a lawyer, so I don't see the loophole they will useJul 07 23:16
BobSpritewell dont use it and dont complain.Jul 07 23:17
SubsonicBThe community *promise* means NOTHINGJul 07 23:17
SubsonicBIts an ADJul 07 23:17
Darkhack_The problem with Mono is that it still ships with components not covered by ECMA or the community promise.Jul 07 23:17
BobSpriteso the license does not matter, its just because its MS and you hate MS.Jul 07 23:17
BobSpriteIt would not matter what they did, someone said hear the other day "all MS has to do is issue a statement".Jul 07 23:18
Darkhack_Notice, Microsoft has NEVER said they would promise not to sue Mono.  They just mentioned the CLR implementations.  They neglet many libraries like Windows.Forms and ASP.NET.Jul 07 23:18
NgSubsonicB: can you actually justify that statement? Like I said, I'm not a lawyer, so I can't objectively give any opinion either way other than to say it reads like a pretty clear statement to meJul 07 23:18
NgDarkhack_: Miguel said they are addressing that and will split it up so they can ship a pure ECMA coreJul 07 23:19
Darkhack_Ng, I hope so.  If that's the case, I would encourage Linux distros to only ship the EMCA core.Jul 07 23:19
Darkhack_*ECMAJul 07 23:19
Darkhack_sorry, typo.Jul 07 23:20
SubsonicBThe "promise" is for END USERS (which do not exist in the Free Software world since anyone can pass the rights and freedoms to other, so there is no *FINAL* user, there is not anymore that distinction so handy for the proprietary software corporations between users and developers since the code is available for anyone ) -not BUSINESSES-Jul 07 23:20
NgDarkhack_: by default I'm quite sure they would do exactly that, the non-ECMA Microsoft stuff is (afaik) very uninteresting for running things like TomboyJul 07 23:20
BobSpriteIts like they are giving yoru a good implementation of a language (like C), and you are saying, "sure, but we also want every program ever writing in the new langauage called C".Jul 07 23:20
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NgSubsonicB: IANAL, but I think you've failed to read the first sentence of the CPJul 07 23:21
SubsonicBNg: Not anymore the mono enthusiast and the Microsoft shills can justify the statement that installing mono by default is *safe* because Microsoft won't sue anyone or extort anyone with secret exclusionary patent deals anymore...Jul 07 23:21
Darkhack_From the community promise page: "The OSP applies directly to all persons or entities that make, use, sell, offer for sale, imports and/or distributes an implementation of a Covered Specification."  Doesn't say anything about modify.Jul 07 23:22
SubsonicBYANAL but SLFC folks ARE, so they sure know better than both of us. I would rather take their legal counsel rather than MSFT PR people's...Jul 07 23:23
NgSubsonicB: have they said anything about it yet?Jul 07 23:23
Ngneighborlee: 07 23:24
SubsonicBNg: Would it make any difference for you if they had?Jul 07 23:24
NgSubsonicB: I'd like to hear their qualified opinions, I'd like to hear as many opinions as possible, the more of them being qualified the better :)Jul 07 23:25
SubsonicBI insisit that people review this: 07 23:26
neighborleeNg, nonsenseJul 07 23:26
neighborleeNg, dribble speakJul 07 23:26
Ngneighborlee: ?Jul 07 23:26
neighborleeNg, if it affects 'anyone' it affects us all..spare me the MS speakJul 07 23:26
neighborleeand the lack of concern-0Jul 07 23:26
Ngneighborlee: what exactly are you saying is nonsense?Jul 07 23:27
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BobSpriteyep, you can break patents with C# and you can just as easily with C, or Assem.Jul 07 23:33
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macabe_how can you break patents with asm?Jul 07 23:39
SubsonicB 07 23:39
SubsonicBmacabe, I think he meant you can infringe patented software with about any programming languageJul 07 23:40
SubsonicBsw. patents I meant.Jul 07 23:40
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SubsonicBsoftware patents aren't about code (copyright law deals with it) but with concepts and ideas (abstract entities)Jul 07 23:42
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