IRC: #boycottnovell @ FreeNode: July 8th, 2009

yuhong"Therefore, believe me or not, my twisted radar tells me that in the long run, Tomboy and F-Spot are going to boost the sales of Microsoft Dynamics, which is a .NET range of products."Jul 08 00:09
yuhongI would not go that far.Jul 08 00:09
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Motoko-chanGood evening.Jul 08 01:45
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wimpyDid Roy Schestowitz really cut off his nuts for Linux?Jul 08 01:57
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wimpyJust asking. Lot's of information on Google about Schestowitz and castrationJul 08 01:59
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twittershestowitz, are you back?Jul 08 03:05
twitterHope you had a nice vacation.  Keep taking it easy, the M$ idiots are at their wits end.Jul 08 03:06
twitterSeems like Miguel's blog has "moderation" after all.  My comment never showed up there.Jul 08 03:10
twitterI pointed out that his own statements contradicted his smear of Roy.  Even Miguel recognizes that M$'s promise is a half loaf kind of answer and that leaves us all with the same king of guessing as before.  What exactly will M$ sue for?  They won't say.Jul 08 03:13
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Motoko-chanWell, with the latest community whatever-it's-called, we know they won't sue for C# or the CLR.Jul 08 03:39
Motoko-chanThe whole .NET library stuff is still unknownJul 08 03:40
twitterSituation normal, no change detected.Jul 08 03:41
Motoko-chanWell, not really.Jul 08 03:42
Motoko-chanAny patents for those were RAND, not free for useJul 08 03:42
twitterM$ is full of shit as usual.Jul 08 03:42
twitterOne one hand, they say only Novell is free to distribute mono.  On the other hand, they pretend everyone is.Jul 08 03:43
twitterIt's called lying and M$ is famous for it.Jul 08 03:43
twitterEven their goofy "Community Promise" is full of restrictions, contradictions and other weasel words.Jul 08 03:44
Motoko-chanHey, it could be worse.Jul 08 03:44
Motoko-chanIt's an advance, however small.Jul 08 03:44
Motoko-chanStill have to wonder what they are up to.Jul 08 03:45
Motoko-chanMy bet is they want some big target to slip.Jul 08 03:45
Motoko-chanThey don't make money for C#. They make money on .NET.Jul 08 03:45
twitterBullshit + Bullshit = Bullshit.  You are at step #1.Jul 08 03:45
twitterI don't care about their money.Jul 08 03:46
twitterI care about my computer working and not being sued.Jul 08 03:46
twittergoing with mono threatens both of those objectives.Jul 08 03:46
twitterwhy bother?Jul 08 03:46
Motoko-chanHey, I don't contest that.Jul 08 03:46
Motoko-chanI think it's a huge waste of space.Jul 08 03:47
twitterBecause they promise not to sue for 1/20th of what's there?Jul 08 03:47
Motoko-chanWhich is probably a better argument than the patent stuff.Jul 08 03:47
twitterM$ will cease to be a threat when they do one of two things:  Implode into bankruptcy or GPL all of their own code.Jul 08 03:47
Motoko-chanI would rather have an 80 meg application than a 10 meg one that needs 200 meg of libraries.Jul 08 03:47
twitterThey will probably bankrupt before they go honest.Jul 08 03:48
Motoko-chanI do have some issues with the GPL, but I hear you.Jul 08 03:48
twitterAs long as they try to ship their second rate OS as non free software, they are still clueless.Jul 08 03:49
twitterNo one would willingly subject themselves to M$'s restrictions if they had a software clue.Jul 08 03:49
twitterOh well.  The news is there is no news.Jul 08 03:50
Motoko-chanThe problem is the ecosystem.Jul 08 03:50
Motoko-chanIt's Microsoft-centric.Jul 08 03:50
twitterThat is changing fast enough.Jul 08 03:50
Motoko-chanTrue.Jul 08 03:50
twitterM$ has few carrots left.Jul 08 03:50
Motoko-chanI'd love to see Adobe port their apps.Jul 08 03:50
twitterThey are all stick.Jul 08 03:50
Motoko-chanIf nothing more than to spur development on GIMP.Jul 08 03:50
twitter?Jul 08 03:51
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Motoko-chanWhich is moving in a nice way, although slowly.Jul 08 03:51
twitterGIMP is feature complete.Jul 08 03:51
twitterWhat are you missing?Jul 08 03:51
twittereh, gotta go.Jul 08 03:51
Motoko-chanLayer masks, layer effects, mask etc.Jul 08 03:51
Motoko-chanSome of the more advanced stuff, basically.Jul 08 03:51
Motoko-chanSee you.Jul 08 03:51
twitterI thought GIMP had that.  Hmph.Jul 08 03:52
Motoko-chanNot last I checked.Jul 08 03:52
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Motoko-chanIt does have a new color engine, which will allow non-destructive edits.Jul 08 03:52
amarsh04Motoko-chan... most libraries used I could find was gtk-gnash 374 kB binary, 44 MB librariesJul 08 04:05
amarsh042.4 gig of files in my /usr/libJul 08 04:07
Motoko-chanHm?Jul 08 04:08
Motoko-chanAh.Jul 08 04:08
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Omar87Hi there.Jul 08 07:08
Omar87So, why are we not seeing any new BN articles over at FSDaily?Jul 08 07:09
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twitterBwa, ha ha. 08 07:45
twitterwhy dink around with that non free OS, when all you want is a browser?Jul 08 07:45
twitter->  The Chrome OS is being designed to power computers that range from small netbooks to full-size desktop machines. The Chrome OS is a direct attack against Microsoft’s lucrative - albeit vulnerable - Windows operating system. By now, it’s no secret that Windows Vista was a nightmare and that Microsoft is eager to launch its Windows 7 operating system, which is scheduled for release in the fall.)Jul 08 07:46
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twitter 08 07:47
twitter-> We hear a lot from our users and their message is clear — computers need to get better. People want to get to their email instantly, without wasting time waiting for their computers to boot and browsers to start up. They want their computers to always run as fast as when they first bought them. They want their data to be accessible to them wherever they are and not have to worry about losing their computer or forgetting to backJul 08 07:47
twitterWatch M$ implode.Jul 08 07:48
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Omar87twitter: With Google now building it's new netbook-oriented (and Linux-powered) OS, it's only a matter of time until Microsoft's Windows melts and evaporates. :)Jul 08 08:01
twitterWindows already melted, it was called Vista.Jul 08 08:01
twitter 08 08:07
twitterM$ deathwatch updated 08 08:09
twittermy last submission is very popular but the trolls labeled it "twitterspam" 08 08:10
twitterI did not use M$ or mention that beastly company once, ha ha.Jul 08 08:11
twitterAstroturf fail.Jul 08 08:11
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Omar87Bottom line: M$ is no longer a threat to FOSS. But of course, this should only make us more cautious.Jul 08 08:19
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BobSpriteI dont think either one is a threat to the other,Jul 08 08:30
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balzacwell, the google brand is about strong enough to launch an OSJul 08 10:18
balzacthat's good newsJul 08 10:18
MinceRas long as you trust google, that isJul 08 10:18
balzacThis is Google dropping the mother of bombs on its chief rival, Microsoft.Jul 08 10:18
balzacI don't, of course.Jul 08 10:18
balzacI'm just happy to see M$ getting some competition.Jul 08 10:19
balzacGoogle drops a MOAB on M$Jul 08 10:19
BobSpriteno one is going to use a google OS,Jul 08 10:20
oiaohmGoogle mother of bombs is something MS has feared a Internet based OS.Jul 08 10:20
oiaohmApplications without any platform links.Jul 08 10:20
MinceRi'm happy to see them getting competition, tooJul 08 10:20
MinceRi'll read up on this stuff and see if it's gnu/linux compatibleJul 08 10:21
balzacBobSprite: why do you say that?Jul 08 10:21
oiaohmMicrosoft always has attacked google believing they would win.Jul 08 10:21
balzac 08 10:22
balzacusually the attacker failsJul 08 10:22
oiaohmGoogle I don't fear too much.Jul 08 10:22
oiaohmDoing something not cross platform supporting is not in googles best interest.Jul 08 10:22
BobSpritehow do we know what is in Googles interest ?Jul 08 10:23
BobSpritemaking money no.1Jul 08 10:23
MinceRwe can't really know google's long-term plansJul 08 10:24
oiaohmAdvertisingJul 08 10:24
oiaohmGoogle makes most of there money from that.Jul 08 10:24
BobSpritewell making money, from advertising.Jul 08 10:24
oiaohmFor advertising means wanting the most people possiable able to access it.Jul 08 10:24
oiaohmSo you can make the most profit.Jul 08 10:24
oiaohmIt goes against googles means to make profit to be too restrictive.Jul 08 10:25
MinceRthey can do a lot more with the data they're collectingJul 08 10:25
BobSpritethats right, and whats the most popular OS now ?? and fo rthe past 20 years ?Jul 08 10:25
oiaohmDepends where BobSpriteJul 08 10:25
oiaohmSupers Linux.Jul 08 10:25
oiaohmEmbed the OS owned by Nokia.Jul 08 10:26
oiaohmDesktops MS.Jul 08 10:26
balzacBobSprite: it took that long for institutions and corporations to be built around around the modern software licensesJul 08 10:26
oiaohmProblem is all three are going head to head with each other for the desktop.Jul 08 10:26
oiaohmThere are about 100 times more embeded devices sold per year as desktops.Jul 08 10:26
balzacnow Google is humongous and they might as well hit Microsoft in the soft under-bellyJul 08 10:27
oiaohmMS is really a small fish who does not know it yet.Jul 08 10:27
balzacGoogle is doing the Jean Claude Van Damme drop to a split and cock-punch your rivalJul 08 10:27
balzacto put it in bad action movie terms...Jul 08 10:28
oiaohmMore web based our usage becomes less important the desktop becomes.Jul 08 10:28
BobSpriteI dont know if MS has a soft underbelly, but sure MS is getting into the search business, Why not google getting into the OS market,Jul 08 10:28
oiaohmMore web based more profit google can make.Jul 08 10:28
balzacBobSprite: Microsoft is all bellyJul 08 10:28
balzacthey're one giant blob, like a decaying giant squid washed up on the beachJul 08 10:29
oiaohmSo far MS attempts at search have all be while elephents.Jul 08 10:29
oiaohmSo far all google OS sales have been profitable.Jul 08 10:29
balzaceven with no competition, they're liable to collapse like the USSR just from too many layers of hierarchyJul 08 10:29
balzactoo much dead weight, too many dilbertsJul 08 10:29
BobSpriteand yet they domonate the market so completely. and they certainly were not the firstJul 08 10:29
oiaohmIe selling search systems to big business on custom linux systems as google has been doing.Jul 08 10:29
balzacyeah, but they're decaying alreadyJul 08 10:30
oiaohmGoogle has a hardware side.Jul 08 10:30
oiaohmSo google could in theory to a apple.Jul 08 10:30
balzacBobSprite: lack of integrity - Microsoft doesn't have enough connective tissueJul 08 10:30
oiaohmMS does not really have a hardware department.Jul 08 10:30
oiaohmDepends on other makers to provide hardware to sell product.Jul 08 10:30
oiaohmSo makes MS a sitting duck.Jul 08 10:30
oiaohmMS is also not that healthy BobSpriteJul 08 10:31
BobSpritewell, in reality it is very healthy, even in this economic downturn.Jul 08 10:32
oiaohmMS has only been trying to get in the search business for the last 10 years.Jul 08 10:32
oiaohmCompared to there competitors MS is really sick  money wise BobSprite.Jul 08 10:32
BobSpritewhat competitors ?Jul 08 10:33
balzacBobSprite: people said the same about Lehman Brothers, Bear Stearns, Meryll Lynch, etc.Jul 08 10:33
balzacSuppose M$ is doing creative accounting like every other multi-billion dollar megacorporation?Jul 08 10:33
balzaccooking their books...Jul 08 10:33
oiaohmOracle Google IBM HP Nokia....  List goes on.Jul 08 10:34
BobSpriteyour saying that, its just a guess, wishfull thinking at best.Jul 08 10:34
oiaohmAll have 1 thing in common BobSpriteJul 08 10:34
oiaohmLinux.Jul 08 10:34
oiaohmIBM had downturn in the MS departments offset by increased Linux sales.Jul 08 10:34
balzacAnd Microsoft has impaired their own ability to use Microsoft by talking trash all these years.Jul 08 10:35
oiaohmSo effectively this downturn did nothing to IBM.Jul 08 10:35
balzacNovell is their representation in the GNU/Linux arena and Novell isn't fairing wellJul 08 10:35
oiaohmMost companies in the software world are not shedding departments.Jul 08 10:35
oiaohmOnly one doing that is MS.Jul 08 10:35
balzacYou can't fight in the streets with no street cred, when everyone knows you're a snitch working for the manJul 08 10:35
Ngoiaohm: google has been laying off tooJul 08 10:36
BobSpritesomething FOSS knows all too well.Jul 08 10:36
balzacSo Microsoft isn't switching to GNU/Linux like IBM, Sun, and the rest who used to have proprietary operating systems...Jul 08 10:36
oiaohmNg google has not shed departments.   Staff reductions yes.Jul 08 10:36
balzacMicrosoft's best bet is to seize onto BSDJul 08 10:37
Ngbalzac: why does microsoft need a unix exactly? they have a huge software ecosystem alreadyJul 08 10:38
oiaohmYet all the department cutting and staff cutting MS has done so far has had no real change on there lower profit.Jul 08 10:38
BobSpriteCompared to FOSS and BSD, MS should just continue to do what they are doing, clearly its working great for them.Jul 08 10:38
oiaohmIts not working.Jul 08 10:38
oiaohmEverything started going wrong with netbooks.Jul 08 10:38
balzacNg: well, because their software sucksJul 08 10:38
oiaohmAnd it has not got better yet.Jul 08 10:38
balzacAlso, everyone else is standardized on *nixJul 08 10:39
Ngbalzac: that's a subjective opinion :)Jul 08 10:39
oiaohmMS had the idea that dumping XP in the netbooks would kill Linux off for good then they would be able to latter on lift price.Jul 08 10:39
balzacthe *nix software ecosystem has more integrityJul 08 10:39
oiaohmNow Google and others are lining up to get into the netbook game to hold price down.Jul 08 10:39
BobSpriteyes, you keep saying that, but that does not make it even close to being true, mabey what you wish it wasJul 08 10:39
balzacNg: how did microsoft go all these years without a proper shell?Jul 08 10:40
Ngif I was microsoft I'd be shedding all the departments that aren't making money, which is pretty much all of their non-windows/office/server ones ;)Jul 08 10:40
balzacit's not subjective.Jul 08 10:40
oiaohmBiggest black hole they have is search Ng.Jul 08 10:40
Ngbalzac: because there's more than one way to control computers? shells might be fantastic, but they're not mandatoryJul 08 10:40
balzacNg: they are mandatory for power users.Jul 08 10:40
balzacMicrosoft is outside the mainstream. The last consumer-grade, toy OS.Jul 08 10:40
BobSpriteofcourse its subjective "If I were running MS" crapJul 08 10:41
Ngbalzac: and yet somehow people have been using windows for years without a shell, so your argument defeats itself ;)Jul 08 10:41
balzacApple was the other and now they're BSD-basedJul 08 10:41
balzacNg: they have been, but not very effectively. :0)Jul 08 10:41
oiaohmBesides next problem is going to be a hit in MS server side.Jul 08 10:42
balzacwhat do you do when you want to grep something?Jul 08 10:42
balzacor sed?Jul 08 10:42
oiaohmSamba will be able to provide a unlimited cal Active Directory server by end of year.Jul 08 10:42
BobSpriteyou dont think you can do that in DOS or powershell ?Jul 08 10:42
balzacpowershell is new, right?Jul 08 10:42
oiaohmBy by lots of MS server side profit.Jul 08 10:42
balzacI'm talking about all those years Windows users went along pretending they were computer power usersJul 08 10:43
BobSpriteall those tools have been available for as long as I can remember, is a shallow argument saying shell is a big Linux bonus, its just not.Jul 08 10:43
balzacwhen they were really scratching their heads like chimpanzees while unix power users were and are the real dealJul 08 10:43
oiaohmDifference mind cdburing from powershell please BobSprite.Jul 08 10:43
oiaohmI can from my Linux shell.Jul 08 10:44
BobSpriteso ?? big deal.Jul 08 10:44
oiaohmIts one thing to have a shell.Jul 08 10:44
balzacthe CLI makes a computer transparentJul 08 10:44
oiaohmIts another thing to have all the addon applications so it can do everything.Jul 08 10:44
balzacit has to be well implementedJul 08 10:44
BobSpritegood for you, then use it and be happyJul 08 10:44
oiaohmPowershell is a poor imintation of what Linux shell scripts can do.Jul 08 10:45
balzacBobSprite: I'll use it and be happy all the way to the bankJul 08 10:45
oiaohmMS slowly cut away lot of the command line tools that made dos effective.Jul 08 10:45
BobSpritegood im glad for you, and ill use what I like and be just as happy and just as richJul 08 10:45
balzacas I compete for contracts against proprietary software software specialistsJul 08 10:45
balzacBobSprite: i'm bound for gloryJul 08 10:46
BobSpritegood for youJul 08 10:46
balzacmy ego is humongousJul 08 10:46
BobSpriteyesJul 08 10:46
oiaohmRemember the Linux boot process run for years on bash the same shell you used on command line Linux.Jul 08 10:46
oiaohmSo you have 1 script style threw out the complete system.Jul 08 10:46
oiaohmMS has always been changing there mind.Jul 08 10:47
balzacthroughoutJul 08 10:47
balzacoiaohm: exactlyJul 08 10:47
oiaohmSo there shells never developed to a highly usable level.Jul 08 10:47
balzacthey're not part of a stable legacy with academic rootsJul 08 10:47
BobSpritethen you dont use MSJul 08 10:47
balzacBobSprite: we want the market shareJul 08 10:47
oiaohmI do BobSprite I am a system admin.Jul 08 10:47
BobSpriteIF you dont like MS dont use it, and dont whine about it.Jul 08 10:47
oiaohmI use Linux and Windows.Jul 08 10:47
BobSpriteso do i, your point ?Jul 08 10:48
oiaohmI don't have the option I have to use what empolyer wants .Jul 08 10:48
oiaohmThe don't use it bit does not apply to me.Jul 08 10:48
oiaohmIts not my free selection.Jul 08 10:48
balzacBobSprite: I'm not whining, I'm like a carrion bird croaking.Jul 08 10:48
oiaohmMy free selection I would not be using windows.Jul 08 10:48
Ngoiaohm: so select a job somewhere that doesn't use windows :)Jul 08 10:49
NgI haven't done any windows admin for years \o/Jul 08 10:49
oiaohmTax office here is also a issue.Jul 08 10:49
balzaccaw!Jul 08 10:49
oiaohmYou cannot interface with it if you don't run windows.Jul 08 10:49
oiaohmSo sorry not a option.Jul 08 10:49
balzacLooks like meat's back on the menu boys!Jul 08 10:49
oiaohmNo matter where I go in this country I would have to use some windows.Jul 08 10:49
balzacMicrosoft's marketshare is on the menu.Jul 08 10:49
BobSpriteI just seems you talk about it an awefull lot for someone who does not like it,Jul 08 10:50
balzacwho?Jul 08 10:50
BobSpriteall of you, you seem obsessed with all that is MS.Jul 08 10:50
balzacBobSprite: it's because we're laying seigeJul 08 10:50
oiaohmBobSprite: personally I would prefer if you could provide a decent defence argument.Jul 08 10:51
balzacwe know of all the spoils withinJul 08 10:51
oiaohmSo far you don't.Jul 08 10:51
BobSpritedoes not seem to be working well for you, all you do is call attention to the product you hate, you would be better off promoting your own product.Jul 08 10:51
oiaohmBobSprite: instead of attacking people.Jul 08 10:51
balzacMicrosoft's billions - just a few million will be quite a lot for me.Jul 08 10:51
balzacBobSprite: not so.Jul 08 10:51
BobSpritepolitical hate talk and opposition smear campains rarly work.Jul 08 10:52
balzacCalling attention the weakness of M$ informs their allies who abandon them, and energizes our reinforcements who join us.Jul 08 10:52
balzacBobSprite: no hatred, only pragmatic focus on the bottom line.Jul 08 10:52
balzacIt's just business, man.Jul 08 10:52
BobSpriteexcept your been doing it for what 20 years now and how's it working ?? is MS destroyed and FOSS leader of the universe ?Jul 08 10:52
oiaohmCounting and tracking cals is a waste of money.Jul 08 10:53
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[zoobab] Should I send my candidacy to be the next President of the EPO? 08 10:53
BobSpriteThe answer is Foss is still where it allways was.Jul 08 10:53
balzacBobSprite: it's like a war drum that keeps getting louder.Jul 08 10:53
oiaohmLinux has had no interest in desktop until 2000Jul 08 10:53
balzacboom boom boOM BOOM BOOM!Jul 08 10:53
oiaohmMost of the Open source world treated desktop as a joke up until then.Jul 08 10:53
oiaohmThing finding X11 stuffed that really screwed things.Jul 08 10:53
BobSpritewell I was using Linux on the desktop in 1996 as a replacement of win 95Jul 08 10:54
balzacYep, all those proprietary Unix OSes had to fall firstJul 08 10:54
BobSpriteRH 7.2Jul 08 10:54
balzacnow there's no one between GNU and M$Jul 08 10:54
oiaohmI was using Linux before that BobSprite.Jul 08 10:54
oiaohmIssues of running Linux on desktop back then were many.Jul 08 10:55
BobSpriteyes so was I but not for the desktop for routers and servers well before thatJul 08 10:55
oiaohm1996 was just playing with the idea of desktop.Jul 08 10:55
BobSpriteI was building and programming computers in teh 1970'sJul 08 10:55
balzacBobSprite: what's your point?Jul 08 10:56
oiaohm2002 with the first video card company group build looked it it would turn good soon.  Then Nvidia walked way from the table resulting in that breaking up.Jul 08 10:56
oiaohm2004 intel took up the X11 issue.Jul 08 10:56
balzacI met old unix guys who still don't understand modern software licensing, they're still using Solaris and they're pissed about GNU/LinuxJul 08 10:56
oiaohmSo by 2010 the base required to truly build a working desktop on Linux and other Foss OS's will exist.Jul 08 10:57
oiaohmYou cannot build a fully working desktop without the support.Jul 08 10:57
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[zoobab] Oral proceedings at the EPO for other pending cases then swpats: When will it be for G3/08?Jul 08 10:58
BobSpriteI bet it will not take on, and that Linux on the desktop will remain where it is now.Jul 08 10:58
oiaohmUnlikely.Jul 08 10:58
oiaohmCan you list what changes happing in the Linux kernel at moment effect desktop.Jul 08 10:59
BobSpriteunless something really different happens that has not for the past 18 yearsJul 08 10:59
balzacJust plot the growth and extrapolateJul 08 10:59
balzacGNU is bound for gloryJul 08 10:59
oiaohmYes something is different than what has happened to the last 18 years BobSprite.Jul 08 10:59
oiaohmWay different.Jul 08 10:59
balzacyeah, like a tipping pointJul 08 10:59
oiaohmLinux developers are doing way with the different between real-time and standard kernel.Jul 08 11:00
oiaohmSo merging into 1 kernel.Jul 08 11:00
BobSpritesure, 17 years and approx 1% desktop share, so at that rate, 200 or so years you  will start to take holdJul 08 11:00
balzacBobSprite: that's an underestimationJul 08 11:00
oiaohmFeatures of the realtime tree are required to provide perfertly stable audio out put.Jul 08 11:00
balzacbut the servers are mostly running GNU/LinuxJul 08 11:00
oiaohmKMS will give Linux equal to a windows blue screen of death.Jul 08 11:00
Aondooiaohm  not to forget controlling robotsJul 08 11:01
oiaohmThat Linux has not had for the last 18 years BobSprite.Jul 08 11:01
balzacKMS ?Jul 08 11:01
oiaohmKernel Mode Switching.Jul 08 11:01
NgSettingJul 08 11:01
balzacyou suppose it will bring instability?Jul 08 11:01
oiaohmRemove instability.Jul 08 11:01
balzacoh, goodJul 08 11:01
NgKMS is essentially irrelevant to the success of the linux desktop, it's just a nice featureJul 08 11:01
BobSpriteall the real time, and kernel most means nothing to the general user, and they wont care less about Linux until it does the same things better, and you can buy software for it at the local supermarket.Jul 08 11:02
oiaohmWrong.Jul 08 11:02
Ngthe success of the desktop is predicated on useful, compelling applications for usersJul 08 11:02
oiaohmNg Lot of instantable in the desktop comes from that Lack of KMS.Jul 08 11:02
Ngoiaohm: that's really not very trueJul 08 11:02
oiaohmyou cannot use a desktop if it cannot stay running.Jul 08 11:02
Aondodidnt they rewrite the whole susupend thing too?Jul 08 11:02
oiaohmNg application lockups.Jul 08 11:02
BobSpriteand yes, they still dont exist on the FOSS platform, regardless of the wish for others, and most FOSS apps worth any note are available on windows anyway.Jul 08 11:02
oiaohmYou cannot switch away due to lack of KMS.Jul 08 11:03
oiaohmEven that the Kernel is still working.Jul 08 11:03
oiaohmSo lot of recoverable problems are rendered not recoverable by it missing.Jul 08 11:03
Ngoiaohm: switch away to what? users don't want to switch to a console, they want X to not crash, which is nothing to do with KMS, it's just regular ordinary bugsJul 08 11:03
BobSpriteI know the stability argument, but iamohm you use windows, and you know windows does not crash anymore has not for the past 8 yearsJul 08 11:03
oiaohmIt also would allow providing a graphical taskmanager on another screen NG.Jul 08 11:03
oiaohmSo yes you could switch to something that could sort out problem NG.Jul 08 11:04
oiaohmDRI2 also sorts out video memory management issues.Jul 08 11:04
Ngoiaohm: that sounds like development effort that would be better used fixing Xorg bugs :)Jul 08 11:04
Ngif you need a task manager to fix X, you're doing something wrongJul 08 11:04
oiaohmDRI2 addressing X11 bugs.Jul 08 11:04
oiaohmKMS also means if the kernel panics users knows straight away.Jul 08 11:05
oiaohmNot just sitting there with a froozen screen not finding out that the Nvidia module they installed was resonsable for the crash.Jul 08 11:05
balzacoiaohm: I'm looking forward to that.Jul 08 11:05
Ngthis is still all boring architecture, users want shiny applications. I've never seen anyone list the lack of BSOD as a reason they don't use a linux desktopJul 08 11:05
balzacoiaohm: you know what else? I don't want my computer to ever be unresponsive for any reason.Jul 08 11:05
AondoNg  the best features are usually those you dont see, and know about :)Jul 08 11:06
balzacAny time an application uses up 100% of either CPU or Memory, I'd like to be informed and given the option to throttle it.Jul 08 11:06
oiaohmbalzac: real-time tree parts are dealing with the unresponives issues.Jul 08 11:06
balzacI *hate* when my computer becomes unresponsive for even half a second.Jul 08 11:06
BobSpriteyou should get yourself a decent OSJul 08 11:07
balzacone-half second of my browser buffer hanging when I'm trying to scrollJul 08 11:07
oiaohmThose half a second issues don't happen very much on 2.6.30 Linux kernels.Jul 08 11:07
Ngbalzac: if you throttle the browser in that situation it'll be locked for more real-timeJul 08 11:07
oiaohmThey are basically gone balzacJul 08 11:07
oiaohmFuture merge bits will make then disappear for good.Jul 08 11:07
balzacoiaohm: I used to flip out when my winmodem (windows) would hang the whole OS for a networking handshakeJul 08 11:08
oiaohmWhat OS BobSprite.  Windows is defective in other ways.Jul 08 11:08
oiaohmSo you mean I should by a Mac?Jul 08 11:08
balzacI'd rather the computer maxed out at 90% of either CPU or RAM and went to the page-file after that. Reserve 10% responsiveness for me, please.Jul 08 11:08
balzacnever leave me mashing keys and cursing.Jul 08 11:09
oiaohmrealtime tree features balzacJul 08 11:09
oiaohmAll the low level tech in Linux will basically work.Jul 08 11:09
Ngbalzac: if you get into swap you're pretty much always going to lose responsiveness because you're so heavily contended on disk IOJul 08 11:09
Ngbuy more RAM, fix memory leak bugs :)Jul 08 11:10
oiaohmSo allowing focus to move away to making stuff work.Jul 08 11:10
oiaohmLike applications.Jul 08 11:10
balzacoiaohm: I hope they're deadly serious about it and they remove any offending code or architecture.Jul 08 11:10
oiaohmreal-time developers hate anything that cause systems to lag.Jul 08 11:10
oiaohmAnd I really do mean hate.Jul 08 11:11
oiaohmThey will go to any extream so it will not happen.Jul 08 11:11
balzacNg: I don't care if it's my cell-phone, my netbook, or my workstation. I never want the damned thing to freeze after 40 years of micro-processors gaining speed, I think programmers should act like they care.Jul 08 11:11
balzacyou only live once and I don't want to spend my life waiting and cursing for some idiotic process to finishJul 08 11:11
Ngbalzac: then you should probably fire about 90% of the professional programmers in the worldJul 08 11:11
balzacit should be a cardinal rule - never consume all the resources or the app should be automatically terminatedJul 08 11:12
oiaohmBobSprite: windows may not crash but disappearing device drivers because they are not signed due to windows updates happen.Jul 08 11:12
balzacNg: trueJul 08 11:12
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balzacwindows is especially bad in this regardJul 08 11:13
BobSpritenever happens, thats FUDJul 08 11:13
balzac?Jul 08 11:13
balzacoh I read about that somewhereJul 08 11:14
oiaohmAudio drivers particular updates if they are not signed they do disappear BobSprite.Jul 08 11:14
oiaohmIt was the main reason why I end up on Linux this time.Jul 08 11:15
BobSpriteyou must really use some crap hardware and drivers, but whatever.Jul 08 11:15
BobSpritestill seems like complaining for the sake of it.Jul 08 11:15
oiaohmWhen I set drivers under Linux they stay put.Jul 08 11:15
oiaohmEven worse was that windows will do the windows update install in background so halfway threw a first person shooter game no more sound.Jul 08 11:16
BobSpriteas ive always found with Windows too, and like y ou ive worked on thousands of themJul 08 11:16
balzacBobSprite: actually, regarding what you said about firing 90% of professional programmersJul 08 11:18
balzacNG, I meantJul 08 11:18
balzacI'd say just have them working for me would be enoughJul 08 11:18
balzacIt takes an iron-fisted software mogulJul 08 11:18
balzacWhich I'll need to become if I want software to be how I want it.Jul 08 11:19
oiaohmThe old Troll answer BobSprite problems don't happen.   I never say that Linux is 100 percent without its problems.Jul 08 11:19
balzacI want it like cold clear water in a mountain stream in the Alps or the AndesJul 08 11:19
balzacperfectly crystal clear and always responsiveJul 08 11:19
balzaceven thinner than water, more like moonshineJul 08 11:20
balzacnot to invoke any microsoft brandingJul 08 11:20
oiaohmIt also windows idiot solution to call perfectly good hardware crap just because windows drivers are wrong.Jul 08 11:20
oiaohmLinux users are more likely to accept that there is a driver issue when there is 1.Jul 08 11:21
oiaohmOne of the worse things MS has done for end users is allowing companies like HP to provide machines with no way to restore the OS in case of hard drive failure due to the reinstall image being on the harddrive.Jul 08 11:25
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[zoobab] DG Competition pushing for a patent system outside of the EU: 08 11:28
BobSpriteand the old FOSS troll line is that things happen when its clear they dont.Jul 08 11:31
Aondoyou mean hardisk failure never happen? :)Jul 08 11:31
BobSpriteno, ofcourse hardware fails,Jul 08 11:31
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oiaohmBobSprite: Always a MS line faults don't exist.Jul 08 11:46
oiaohmOk some things are extreamly rare.   Problem with rare they do happen.Jul 08 11:47
oiaohmLike NTFS due to interuption at right time losing the windows\system32\config directory.  Its still fixable if you have an install disk to run chkdsk to repair directory.Jul 08 11:48
oiaohmOnly one problem machine does not boot either.Jul 08 11:48
oiaohmYes rare but nasty.Jul 08 11:49
oiaohmThe downside of the registry system in windows is too much writing happens to them in genernal usage putting core bits at risk of being damaged.Jul 08 11:52
BobSpriteand yet registry issues are non-issues in this day and age.Jul 08 11:54
oiaohmThere will always be users who avoid the rare events.   Its like compiz and opengl applications on Linux.Jul 08 11:54
oiaohmI like that line BobSpriteJul 08 11:54
oiaohmI have about 5 machines a year taken down by them BobSprite.Jul 08 11:55
oiaohmSorry for the poor user caught by them its not a non-issue.Jul 08 11:56
BobSpritewell its a non-issue to most of the world, and the general user will spend his/her entire life and will never have to deal with any such issues.Jul 08 11:56
oiaohmBy that arguement I could say Linux is perfect.Jul 08 11:57
oiaohmAnd call all its issues non-issues.Jul 08 11:57
oiaohmIts like the good one users machine slows down on them.   They must not have done maintain operations.   Linux and OS X get away without performance loss over time due to not doing maintain operations.Jul 08 12:00
BobSpriteyes, just keep telling yourself that linux is perfect, and that no more needs to be done to it to improve it, and that all you need to do is try to convince all those MS users that even though they are not having problems, they are.Jul 08 12:01
oiaohmOr users 32 bit OS not being able to use 8 GB of memory.   If users has put memory and it is possiable for OS to access it.  The memory should be usable.Jul 08 12:02
oiaohmI don't call Linux perfect my self BobSpriteJul 08 12:02
oiaohmI accept its not prefect.Jul 08 12:02
oiaohmThat it has defects to be fixed.Jul 08 12:02
BobSpriteyes, manyJul 08 12:03
oiaohmWindows also has many.Jul 08 12:03
oiaohmThere is no perfect desktop OS.Jul 08 12:03
oiaohmI always think its funny.  Most solutions to strange problems under windows is reinstall the OS.  With no way to find out what the problem truly was.Jul 08 12:06
BobSpriteand you call yourself a computer whizz ??Jul 08 12:07
BobSpritesounds like your at the "flipping burger" end of the IT industry.Jul 08 12:07
BobSpritere-install the OS, sure that was in 1995, its actually 2009 now.Jul 08 12:08
oiaohmStill happens.Jul 08 12:08
Aondothere was still war in 1995... and there still is :DJul 08 12:08
balzacRMS has some great ideas for improving the GNU/Linux operating systemJul 08 12:09
Aondois it spesific to the GNU system, and not software in general?Jul 08 12:09
balzacBobSprite: what true consumate computer enthusiast would take the time to learn how to troubleshoot windows?Jul 08 12:10
BobSprite1995 and crappy win95 was Linux's best chance to gain market share, as win95 was rubbish and had a terrible memory manager if you have over 512meg RAM.Jul 08 12:10
oiaohmReally not.Jul 08 12:10
balzacIf you're a whizz at windows, you're like a customer who eats at mcdonaldsJul 08 12:11
oiaohmLinux kernel from 1995 still had fairly crapply process management.Jul 08 12:11
BobSpritewho would trouble shoot windows, every single half decent Sys Admin can admin windows routinely, and probably many other OS's as well.Jul 08 12:11
balzacLike a connisseur of mcdonalds.Jul 08 12:11
BobSpriteIts not like its brain scienceJul 08 12:11
balzacI've been to every mcdonalds in the region! I really know my mcdonalds!Jul 08 12:11
oiaohmAlso Linux did not have hardware maker support back in 1995.Jul 08 12:12
BobSpriteif you cant fix windows, make it totally secure and stable for free, your in the wrong job.Jul 08 12:12
oiaohmLOLJul 08 12:12
oiaohmThere is no way to make windows totally secure.Jul 08 12:12
BobSpriteI did not have any hardware issued using linux in 1995, seems to work fine.Jul 08 12:12
oiaohmWithout correcting a few core parts.Jul 08 12:12
balzacBobSprite: no, it's like groping in the dark because you can't get the source code and you can't change it or re-distribute it, so there are no Windows User's Groups where enthusiasts share the latest code.Jul 08 12:12
balzacbecause you can't share the damned code!Jul 08 12:12
balzacand you're trying to pass yourself off in here as a computer whizz?Jul 08 12:12
balzaccome on! computer science has an academic legacyJul 08 12:13
BobSpritethere are vast Windows users groups, and most problems are far easier to find solutions for than Linux or any other OS.Jul 08 12:13
balzacconsumate computer users require at least an academic software licenseJul 08 12:13
oiaohmNo system admin worth there salt would ever claim any OS can be made totally secure.Jul 08 12:13
oiaohmBasically BobSprite just proved past question if he is a system admin he is not a good one.Jul 08 12:14
BobSpriteI did not say they could, they can make it as secure as it needs to be, and just as secure and anything else.Jul 08 12:14
BobSpriteAnd if you cant do that, what good are you ?Jul 08 12:14
balzacBobSprite: what is the point of a users group if you can't share the software?Jul 08 12:14
balzacwhat do you do, tell each other about great new products they can buy?Jul 08 12:14
balzacMSDN tips?Jul 08 12:14
balzaccome on!Jul 08 12:14
oiaohmif you cant fix windows, make it totally secure and stable for free, your in the wrong job. << BobSprite.Jul 08 12:15
BobSpritethere is a vast amount of free and open software on teh web for Windows, probably far more than linux.Jul 08 12:15
oiaohmThat is what you claimed.Jul 08 12:15
oiaohmSo you want to take that back.Jul 08 12:15
balzacBobSprite: I don't think you're really enthusiastic about computers or software.Jul 08 12:15
oiaohmAltered to made as secure as anything else.Jul 08 12:15
oiaohmI am sorry Windows is not.Jul 08 12:15
balzacif you cared, you wouldn't be using windowsJul 08 12:15
BobSpriteno im not a software cultist or zealot, i just use what works,Jul 08 12:16
balzacno, you use what failsJul 08 12:16
oiaohmWindows currently does not pass to host all levels of USA mil securitly on 1 system.Jul 08 12:16
oiaohmLinux and Solarias does.Jul 08 12:16
BobSpriteWindows has the same industry OR BETTER security rating as Linux does,Jul 08 12:16
balzacthe London Stock Exchange had to quit using windows 2003Jul 08 12:16
oiaohmWrong.Jul 08 12:16
balzacit just sucks too badJul 08 12:16
oiaohmBobSprite:Jul 08 12:16
BobSpriteand thats only some linux distro's not all.Jul 08 12:17
balzacBobSprite: it fails.Jul 08 12:17
balzacmiserably.Jul 08 12:17
BobSpriteshow me where the london stock exchange has quit using windows please.Jul 08 12:17
oiaohmRedhat Linux and Solarias have higher ratings than Windows 2008Jul 08 12:17
oiaohmNot crap EAL4 rating that is just quality control.Jul 08 12:17
balzac 08 12:17
BobSpriteEAL4 is windows, and its the same as Fedore9 and a couple others,Jul 08 12:17
oiaohmBut true secuirty implementation ratingJul 08 12:17
oiaohmEAL4 is just the quality control rating.Jul 08 12:18
oiaohmNot secuirty ratingJul 08 12:18
oiaohmMS is missing mandorary access control systems on services to start off with.Jul 08 12:18
balzacAnyone who was ever fool enough to believe that Microsoft software was good enough to be used for a mission-critical operation had their face slapped this September when the LSE (London Stock Exchange)?s Windows-based TradElect system brought the market to a standstill for almost an entire day.Jul 08 12:19
balzacdang.Jul 08 12:19
BobSpriteits what government and industry use, so it is what it is,Jul 08 12:20
oiaohmNote Solarias still out rates linux.Jul 08 12:20
oiaohmUSA goverment use 2 ratings not one BobSprite.Jul 08 12:20
BobSpritesame applies to linux for mission critical, its by no means up to mission critical.Jul 08 12:20
oiaohmOne is quality control ie EALsJul 08 12:20
balzacoiaohm: I'd say that's just bureaucratic inertiaJul 08 12:20
oiaohmOne is security framework.Jul 08 12:20
balzacSolaris is not better than GNU/LinuxJul 08 12:20
balzacit is worseJul 08 12:21
BobSpritenot that its stops industry using MS for mission critical apps, and successfully.Jul 08 12:21
oiaohmContainers implementation balzacJul 08 12:21
oiaohmPuts Solarias just ahead in a few key areas.Jul 08 12:21
balzacok, but not for long.Jul 08 12:21
oiaohmCost stops a lot of industries in time using MS.Jul 08 12:21
balzacBobSprite: NYSE? Redhat?Jul 08 12:22
balzacGNU/Linux + Mars Rover control computers, Large Hadron Collider computers?Jul 08 12:22
balzacGNU/Linux rules mission critical. Most super-computers are GNU/Linux.Jul 08 12:22
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oiaohmIts small business that has a fixation with Windows.Jul 08 12:23
BobSpriteactually GNU/Linux is not IN the mars rover at all, do your researchJul 08 12:23
balzacIf GNU/Linux is not the king of mission critical applications then what is?Jul 08 12:23
BobSpriteVMSJul 08 12:23
balzacBobSprite: the computers which send the control commands.Jul 08 12:23
balzacdo your researchJul 08 12:23
oiaohmVMS is also not windows.Jul 08 12:23
oiaohmVMS is coded better.Jul 08 12:23
balzacVMS?Jul 08 12:24
balzacwtf is that?Jul 08 12:24
BobSpriteI know, and a computer that sends commands to another computer does not mean a thing, big deal.Jul 08 12:24
BobSpritebut saying GNU/Linux is IN the mars rovers is not true.Jul 08 12:24
BobSpriteto put in nicelyJul 08 12:25
balzacBobSprite: the point is, they didn't choose windows, nor any proprietary operating system.Jul 08 12:25
balzacBobSprite: I never said that, did I?Jul 08 12:25
balzac< balzac> GNU/Linux + Mars Rover control computersJul 08 12:25
BobSpriteVMS, and OpenVMS is an operating system, that is years ahead of linux or Windows, and it h as some very powerfully features that are not available on windows or unix.Jul 08 12:25
balzacok, but wtf is VMS?Jul 08 12:26
balzaclooks like a bunch of hype. AdSight? InSight? PRtrack?Jul 08 12:26
BobSpriteits stands for "Virtual Memory System".Jul 08 12:26
balzacurl?Jul 08 12:27
trmancoGoogle OS :-)Jul 08 12:27
balzacDEC's proprietary operating system originally produced for its VAX minicomputer.Jul 08 12:27
BobSpritethats rightJul 08 12:28
oiaohmVxWorks is what the rovers run by the way BobSpriteJul 08 12:28
oiaohmAnother posix releationJul 08 12:28
BobSpriteits the ultimate secure and mission critical OS.Jul 08 12:28
balzacMany Unix fans generously concede that VMS would probably be the hacker's favourite commercial OS if Unix didn't exist; though true, this makes VMS fans furious.Jul 08 12:28
oiaohmYou would not trust MS windows predecssor VMS with a mission critical operation.Jul 08 12:29
balzacBobSprite: that title belongs to GNU/LinuxJul 08 12:29
BobSpriteit would, if VMS was ported to the IA-32 x86 platform it would should Linux out of the waterJul 08 12:29
oiaohmNopJul 08 12:29
oiaohmVMS is crap.Jul 08 12:29
oiaohmVxWorks already works on the x86 platform.Jul 08 12:29
BobSpritesure, and you cant get windows secure, and clearly you've never used it if you think its crap.Jul 08 12:29
oiaohmBobSprite: Troll defence.Jul 08 12:30
oiaohmCome on.Jul 08 12:30
trmanco 08 12:30
oiaohmVMS is crap because it tech is not up todate.Jul 08 12:30
oiaohmBut its code is dependable.Jul 08 12:30
mitsuhikooiaohm: how is VMS not up to date?Jul 08 12:30
oiaohmSecuirty frameworks to start off with.Jul 08 12:31
oiaohmRealtime support.Jul 08 12:31
oiaohmLack of applications.Jul 08 12:31
mitsuhikowhatever a security framework is...Jul 08 12:31
BobSpriteand what is crap about VMS the fact that its very secure, its facts is has a great scriping language, and versioning file system, able to boot off multiple HD's over network, hub-connection for instant clusters, decade uptimes, ....  and so on.Jul 08 12:31
mitsuhikoVMS has a very high level of securityJul 08 12:31
mitsuhikoand applications don't matter because people that use VMS write custom onesJul 08 12:32
balzacSounds more like a high level of obscurityJul 08 12:32
mitsuhikoand linux does not do realtime eitherJul 08 12:32
balzacmitsuhiko: I could have sworn that was one of the requirements for it to be used for the NYSEJul 08 12:33
oiaohmVMS vs VxWorks mitsuhikoJul 08 12:33
mitsuhikobalzac: why would the NYSE use a realtime kernel?Jul 08 12:33
balzacRed Hat Makes Real-Time Linux RealJul 08 12:33
Ngmitsuhiko: guaranteed latency seems like it would be useful for realtime tradingJul 08 12:34
balzacLinux vendor Red Hat (NYSE:RHT) is out today with its newest Real Time Linux platform, MRG 1.1 boasting new performance, messaging and grid computing (cloud) capabilities.Jul 08 12:34
mitsuhikobalzac: windows is not a realtime kernel either, the only realtime kernel microsoft has is windows ceJul 08 12:34
oiaohmLinux is having to gain real-time support to compete with VxWorks.Jul 08 12:34
oiaohmLinux kernel has a RT branch.Jul 08 12:34
oiaohmThat is a full RT kernel.Jul 08 12:34
oiaohmLack of main line means its support is not perfect yet.Jul 08 12:35
mitsuhikosince when is the RT kernel from redhat a real realtime kernel?Jul 08 12:35
oiaohmSince the latter generation of patches.Jul 08 12:35
balzac 08 12:35
balzacthere's my sourceJul 08 12:35
balzacargue with Redhat, I don't work for RHJul 08 12:36
mitsuhikoyou lose real-time when you run common applications / drivers on top of itJul 08 12:36
mitsuhikoso i suppose that's marketing bullshit behind that linuxJul 08 12:36
oiaohmNo..Jul 08 12:36
BobSpriteVxWorks is an RTOS for embedded applications, VMS is a full blown mainframe, mini-computer distributed cluster high end computing environment.Jul 08 12:36
oiaohmRunning common applications on a RTOS the common application gets treated secound to real time events.Jul 08 12:37
BobSpriteits like comparing a rack of blade servers to a cell phoneJul 08 12:37
oiaohmThe drivers in the Linux kernel are being altered to support real-time.Jul 08 12:37
balzacNYSE is the pinnacle and GNU/Linux has claimed it.Jul 08 12:37
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[trmanco] "Google Chrome running within a new windowing system on top of a Linux kernel."" :-DJul 08 12:38
oiaohmSo sorry there will be no such thing as a non realtime supporting driver for linux.Jul 08 12:38
oiaohmIt is what makes merging the real-time kernel into main line so hard.Jul 08 12:39
oiaohmAll the non real-time supporting drivers have to be corrected.Jul 08 12:39
BobSpriteall "real-time" means is that there is a maximum time period between a function or user requrest or interrupt and it being actioned, it could be 100nS or 1 day its still real time.Jul 08 12:39
oiaohm 08 12:40
oiaohmBobSprite: I am talking hard real-time.Jul 08 12:40
BobSpriteits called deterministic behaviorJul 08 12:40
BobSpriteso am iJul 08 12:40
oiaohm100nS is too slow for hard real-time.Jul 08 12:41
oiaohm100nS is about what you expect from soft.Jul 08 12:41
ugufjhfjhard real-time are do with asic, fpga, not OSJul 08 12:42
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[trmanco] Google Chrome OS running on top of Linux <- The Day Microsoft Stood Still!!Jul 08 12:43
BobSpriteI know, and I also know that I can program real time applications that run under windows, and that interface directly to hardware.Jul 08 12:43
balzacsounds like a "real hard time"Jul 08 12:44
BobSpritein fact all my major projects were real time, robotic and scientific instruments and they used winodws and PC's.Jul 08 12:44
oiaohmugufjhfj: OS are releated for the OS means to push all processes aside to get it down.Jul 08 12:44
oiaohmBobSprite: difference here you don't have to do odd things to get equal under Linux.Jul 08 12:44
balzaci'm sorry to hear it. how was it licensed?Jul 08 12:45
oiaohmNormal windows solution is a form of sub kernel.Jul 08 12:45
BobSpriteyou dont have to do odd things with windows eitherJul 08 12:45
ugufjhfjwindows is all but real timeJul 08 12:46
BobSpriteyes it is,Jul 08 12:46
oiaohm  << That is what is required to get hard realtime.Jul 08 12:46
oiaohmUnder windows.Jul 08 12:46
ugufjhfjSleep with 1 ms resolution LOOOOOOOOOOOOOLJul 08 12:46
oiaohmWindows only has native soft realtime.Jul 08 12:47
oiaohmGood enough for a lot of tasks.Jul 08 12:47
BobSpriteby definition windows is software so software has "soft" real time,Jul 08 12:47
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[zoobab] UPLS is the new attempt to get software patents validated in Europe: 08 12:48
oiaohmThe most significant latency is IRQ masking by the Windows XP kernel and drivers, routinely done for periods up to several milliseconds through Windows XP KeRaise/LowerIrql calls. << Still applies to later windows verisons.Jul 08 12:48
oiaohmRealtime processes don't have 100 percent preference to everything.Jul 08 12:49
oiaohmSo they are only soft.Jul 08 12:49
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oiaohmHard they can get first access at everything they need to be on time.Jul 08 12:50
_Hicham_Hi oiaohmJul 08 12:50
oiaohmVery different internal kernel BobSprite.Jul 08 12:50
oiaohmHi _Hicham_Jul 08 12:50
BobSpriteyou might say that but people every day use MS windows for real-time and mission critical applications without problemJul 08 12:51
_Hicham_mission critical applications on Windows ?Jul 08 12:51
_Hicham_BobSprite : u r wrongJul 08 12:52
ugufjhfjhahaJul 08 12:52
_Hicham_even if they use Windows, it is not MS WindowsJul 08 12:52
_Hicham_they use a customised version of WindowsJul 08 12:52
_Hicham_recompiled from sourceJul 08 12:52
BobSpriteyes, it is, and im right ive installed and worked on those systems for years and yearsJul 08 12:52
oiaohmSo do Linux people with standard Linux kernel with its standard soft support  BobSpriteJul 08 12:53
oiaohmWindows and Linux default kernels cannot replace VxWorks that has Hard.Jul 08 12:53
BobSpriteThey are not re-compiled from source, they are stock standard versions with updates,Jul 08 12:53
oiaohmSameJul 08 12:53
oiaohmStandard Linux kernel has a shorter soft realtime responce than the windows kenrel.Jul 08 12:53
oiaohmWhen it comes to real-time MS had good design and they have stuffed it up with locking systems.Jul 08 12:54
BobSpriteso why is it the big SCADA systems software manufactures have their control software and their PLC programming systems in Windows.Jul 08 12:54
oiaohmLook closer.Jul 08 12:55
BobSpriteYou know the SCADA systems that control your life, water, elect, gas, sewer, power, factories and so on, all mission critical all windows.Jul 08 12:55
ugufjhfjbecause of MS lobbyJul 08 12:55
BobSpritebecause it works,Jul 08 12:55
ugufjhfjworks with virus and malware, yeah!Jul 08 12:56
oiaohmSCADA systems exist on VxWorks and Linux.Jul 08 12:56
oiaohmSome places choose to run Windows that is there problem.Jul 08 12:57
BobSpriteno none of that stuff, these are not PC's you use as a desktop or for web browsing, geezzz.Jul 08 12:57
oiaohmAlso some are using like the linked I provide before.Jul 08 12:57
BobSpriteyou guys have not dwelt much in the big world I see.Jul 08 12:57
oiaohmWhat is basically a kernel override done so SCADA can respond due to windows internal crappy ness.Jul 08 12:57
oiaohmLinux when lot of the systems you are talking about most likely did not have the support either.Jul 08 12:58
BobSpritethese are dual or tripple redundant mirrored systems with separate UPS.s and data backup and restore systems, with a second location falloverJul 08 12:58
oiaohmIn the last year Linux ablity grew with real-time support.Jul 08 12:58
oiaohmI guess the systems you are talking about are older than that.Jul 08 12:59
oiaohmVxWorks control system is more expensive than windows.Jul 08 12:59
oiaohmSimple case of budget BobSpriteJul 08 12:59
ugufjhfj(and Lobbying)Jul 08 12:59
BobSpritewell these are real time and very large SCADA systems, mabey for complete cities, they are huge and have many thousands of control PLC's that ofcourse have RTOS and real time applications in them, they are the Control part of SCADA, the Supervisory part is dont in Citect, using Windows OS.Jul 08 13:00
BobSpritethey arenot the same things the RTOS lives in the PLC's and teh RTU's and the mainframe of PC is the supervisory and have to report data and signal alarms, and realy time would be 1 second for an alarm from teh SCADA network.Jul 08 13:01
BobSpriteSo real time is that is required from teh spec to detect and respond to an event, and events are handled by the outlying control microprocessors,Jul 08 13:02
oiaohmCitect can be got for Linux and Solarias as well.Jul 08 13:03
oiaohmIs nothing more than admin preference.Jul 08 13:03
BobSpriteyes, but the version, is not nearly as good, and its still proprietary, but no one uses it, they all use windows, and that is because of the support base for it.Jul 08 13:04
oiaohmCitect is depending on the PLC do do the hard real-time.Jul 08 13:04
BobSpriteand that fact it works and is rock solid stable.Jul 08 13:05
oiaohmWindows OS is still not a hard real-time to support that.Jul 08 13:05
oiaohmYou are not really saying anything that says windows is better for mission critical.Jul 08 13:05
BobSpriteobviously that does not matter, and I know it does not matter, it works and therefore its used.Jul 08 13:06
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ugufjhfjWe know that Windows is the Eighth Wonder of the WorldJul 08 13:09
MinceRand also the first seven :>Jul 08 13:10
ugufjhfjof course :)Jul 08 13:11
oiaohmThese aguements is so normal.  BobSprite.  I remember when MS people would come here and hold up the londen stock exchange as an example.   Defence argments are just as weak.Jul 08 13:12
BobSpritewindows is just an operating system, it has applications that work with it that I can and do use, and I need to know how to use those applications for my work, but I dont use "windows" I use applications.  who cares what the OS is.Jul 08 13:12
balzacI careJul 08 13:12
balzacI care what license and the design of the operating system tooJul 08 13:12
balzacthat's like asking "who cares what you eat?"Jul 08 13:13
oiaohmMeans to audit complete system is handy at times.Jul 08 13:13
balzacI'm not indifferentJul 08 13:13
BobSpritegreat if your an OS enthusiest or hobbiest fine, fill ya boots.Jul 08 13:13
balzacyeah, then there's securityJul 08 13:13
oiaohmWindows closed source not as audit able.Jul 08 13:13
balzacHugo Chavez cares what OS controls the oil pumpsJul 08 13:13
balzacyou cannot accept another administrator if you're serious computer userJul 08 13:13
balzacyou must have autonomy and securityJul 08 13:13
balzacUsing windows would make me sick. I'd have to switch to another profession.Jul 08 13:14
oiaohmFor something live and death would you not like to have it source code audited for defects and the report in your hands?Jul 08 13:14
balzacI have to have control.Jul 08 13:14
balzacI go back into construction if windows were my only choiceJul 08 13:14
oiaohmSo you can avoid known weak points.Jul 08 13:14
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BobSpriteand that auditing is working so well for you now, whats Ubuntu up to 60,000 bugs and counting, how come they are not found in your full audits ????Jul 08 13:15
oiaohmthey are.Jul 08 13:15
oiaohmI told you not to use that line again because each time you do you will get your ass kicked.Jul 08 13:16
oiaohmSo you can avoid known weak points.Jul 08 13:16
BobSpritethis "many eyes" things is rubbish, clearly its not working and no one is actually looking, who knows what else is hidden in there.Jul 08 13:16
oiaohmyou have access to the bug list so you don't have to use the effected parts.Jul 08 13:16
oiaohmI am not talking about the many eyes things BobSprite.Jul 08 13:16
BobSpriteof the "KNOWN" bugs, not the missed ones, the back doors, the buffer overflows and so on not detected.Jul 08 13:17
balzacBobSprite: no system has found them all.Jul 08 13:17
balzacUltimately, that's what insurance companies are for.Jul 08 13:17
balzacsecurity has to be active with intrusion detection, back-tracing, investigation, subpoenas, & prosecutions.Jul 08 13:18
balzacand insuranceJul 08 13:18
balzacbecause no security scheme is perfect.Jul 08 13:18
balzacand there are always more exploits to be foudnJul 08 13:19
oiaohmI am talking about systems that scan for flaws. 08 13:19
oiaohmThey find missed ones as well BobSpriteJul 08 13:19
oiaohmbuffer overflows should be impossiable in correctly audited code.Jul 08 13:20
oiaohmOnly reason why they can exist is your auditing tool has a defect.Jul 08 13:20
oiaohmTo do these kinds of scans you require the complete source code BobSprite.Jul 08 13:21
oiaohmOther wise defects can be hidding in the closed source sections you cannot audit correctlyJul 08 13:21
oiaohmNote auditing tool not having complete source code to scan threw is a defect to the auditing tool.Jul 08 13:23
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[zoobab] FFII France and software patents live from RMLL: 08 13:23
oiaohmBasically using a closed source OS in a critical system is tying one hand behind you back  BobSprite.Jul 08 13:27
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[zoobab] Rene Mages taking about the EPO EBA ReferralJul 08 13:28
oiaohmAnd hoping you will not need it.Jul 08 13:28
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[zoobab] Software patents at RMLL: 08 13:33
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-BNc/#boycottnovell-[zoobab] Chassez les brevets logiciels par la fenetre, ils reviennent pas les toilettes...Jul 08 13:38
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BobSpriteyes people have been using proprietary OS's for most of the existance of computers to mission critical applications, and they still are without a problem at all.Jul 08 13:42
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-BNc/#boycottnovell-[zoobab] Live dump from the RMLL interview of FFII France: 08 13:48
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[trmanco] ♺ @brunomiguel: Liked "Google Drops A Nuclear Bomb On Microsoft. And It’s Made of Chrome." 08 13:53
oiaohmBobSprite: and then write off having buffer overflows as natural sorry it is not without problems.Jul 08 13:53
oiaohmAnd other issues.Jul 08 13:54
oiaohmAgain clouding over the facts of the issue.  Simple fact there have been issues causes by not being able to perform a full audit.Jul 08 13:54
oiaohmItems like VxWorks you get source code under NDA as a device developer for the very auditing reason.  There is a difference between proprietary and closed source.Jul 08 13:56
oiaohmVxWorks is not unqiue either in the embed word of proprietary OS's to hand over the source code of the OS under NDA to people working with it.Jul 08 14:00
BobSpriteyep, just like MS does too,Jul 08 14:02
oiaohmExtra charage with MS.Jul 08 14:03
oiaohmSo companies not all companies do it.   Reason why a lot of MS OS based produces are weaker.Jul 08 14:03
BobSpritenot when they provide it for free to universities and R&D groups.Jul 08 14:03
BobSpritethere is always a "BUT" with you,Jul 08 14:04
oiaohmNot exactly free either.Jul 08 14:04
oiaohmHave you read the conditions on that.Jul 08 14:04
oiaohmVxWorks you are allowed to correct a error and release as long as VxWorks is informed of the alteration.   With MS on the other hand you are not allowed to ship altered form.Jul 08 14:05
oiaohmSo even that you might detect a defect you are not allowed to fix it.Jul 08 14:05
oiaohmIt costs more for the right to fix issues.Jul 08 14:06
BobSpriteIf there is a choice to use something that is broken that I can fix or to use something that is proprietary but works, ill pick what works everytime.Jul 08 14:10
oiaohmThe buts exist because you always end up comparing non matches.Jul 08 14:10
oiaohmBut what about the case when the proprietary does not work BobSpriteJul 08 14:10
oiaohmAnd you are stuck with it.Jul 08 14:10
BobSpriteits you who is comparing VxWorks to FOSS and linux which it is neitherJul 08 14:11
oiaohmVxWorks and FOSS to a developer is not much difference other than the VxWorks licence cost per device.Jul 08 14:11
BobSpriteyou say A can do something I say so can B, you say "BUT" A does it better/different/Cheaper/freeer/add comment hereJul 08 14:11
oiaohmYou say so can B when B is not really the same.Jul 08 14:12
oiaohmdue to other restrictions.Jul 08 14:12
oiaohmIts equal comparing.Jul 08 14:13
BobSpritesure it is :)Jul 08 14:13
oiaohmWhy is it me who has to point out the limitations.  I guess you have never had to compare the licences of VxWorks and MS productions.Jul 08 14:14
oiaohmsymbian when it was fully closed had the same licence condition style as VxWorks.Jul 08 14:15
oiaohmWhen its come to embed licencing MS has away been the odd on out.Jul 08 14:16
BobSpritenor do i care, nor does about 99.99999999% of the planetJul 08 14:16
oiaohmPart of the reason why they have bugger all market share in it.Jul 08 14:16
oiaohmCompared to other solutions.Jul 08 14:16
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[trmanco] Já consigo ouvir o CEO da MS a mandar caralhadas de Redmond!Jul 08 14:18
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[trmanco] ... e a bater com os cornos na parede também!Jul 08 14:18
frenziedgoatwhat is the thinking around the Mono / CP ?Jul 08 14:25
*frenziedgoat is desparate to get the goods on it ...Jul 08 14:25
oiaohmCP is not offically declared yet.Jul 08 14:25
oiaohmAnd would not cover the .net classes mono ships under MIT licence.Jul 08 14:26
frenziedgoatit seems to be declared by MS here:Jul 08 14:26
frenziedgoat 08 14:26
frenziedgoatthey list it as covered by the CP.Jul 08 14:26
frenziedgoatoiaohm: cool - so why is the CP license sensitive ?Jul 08 14:26
oiaohmOk site updated since I last looked.Jul 08 14:27
MinceRiirc it depends on whether the particular item was "standardized" via Ecma or notJul 08 14:27
oiaohmwinforms ado .... basically all .net classes are not covered by the CP.Jul 08 14:27
oiaohmOnly the core is covered.Jul 08 14:27
BobSprite"irrevocably" is the key word thereJul 08 14:28
frenziedgoatoiaohm: ah, ok - so people should not use winforms ?Jul 08 14:28
oiaohmBasically all you have is C# and the core engine to run it.Jul 08 14:28
MinceRnot only winformsJul 08 14:28
oiaohmNo classes frenziedgoatJul 08 14:28
oiaohmBasically paper weight.Jul 08 14:29
MinceRfor example, ToreadorVampire mentioned ASP.NET as the riskiest partJul 08 14:29
MinceRwhich isn't covered, iircJul 08 14:29
oiaohmFor cross platform usage.Jul 08 14:29
frenziedgoatoiaohm: ok - so it's just the core C# language, the CLI - but that sounds like enough to get Tomboy working (eg.)Jul 08 14:30
*frenziedgoat wonders if he can use that now.Jul 08 14:30
oiaohmNop.Jul 08 14:30
oiaohmIts not enough to make Tomboy work.Jul 08 14:30
frenziedgoatsuck - what is missing ?Jul 08 14:30
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oiaohmclass that does disk io for one.Jul 08 14:31
BobSpriteyes, ofcourse, you can break patents with any language, thats always been the case.Jul 08 14:31
MinceRthe difference is in patent licensing.Jul 08 14:32
MinceR(and of course the intentions of the patent owners :> )Jul 08 14:32
frenziedgoatso MS have a patent on disk I/O ?Jul 08 14:32
oiaohmDon't know.Jul 08 14:32
frenziedgoatdamn - I hope this IRC channel is not logged ...Jul 08 14:32
oiaohmBut cp agreement is only covering the bare min core.Jul 08 14:33
BobSpritethey may have a patent on a specific Disk I/O systemJul 08 14:33
oiaohmJava implementation agreement covers all standard classes.Jul 08 14:33
MinceRfrenziedgoat: why?Jul 08 14:33
oiaohmSo you could implement the full standard without risk.Jul 08 14:33
frenziedgoatoh - I'd love to read that - is there a link to the Java agreement ?Jul 08 14:33
oiaohmMS has not done that yet.Jul 08 14:33
frenziedgoatoiaohm: so the CP has exclusions for parts of the standard ?Jul 08 14:34
oiaohmThe standard does not cover the core classes.Jul 08 14:34
oiaohmOnly the bare core to make it operate.Jul 08 14:35
BobSpritethats right it covers teh language, not what has been developed with the language.Jul 08 14:35
BobSpritejust as you would not expect to be given every program written in C because you are allowed to program in CJul 08 14:36
*frenziedgoat can't find this Java implementation agreementJul 08 14:36
frenziedgoatoiaohm: where is that ?Jul 08 14:36
oiaohmIts rather like being give C and not being given clib BobSpriteJul 08 14:36
BobSprite.NET framework is far more and a "clib"Jul 08 14:38
twitterNot true, non free software as you know it was invented in the 80s and it has caused lots of problems. -> BobSprite: yes people have been using proprietary OS's for most of the existance of computers to mission critical applications, and they still are without a problem at all.Jul 08 14:38
frenziedgoatBobSprite: but you can't do disk I/O !Jul 08 14:38
frenziedgoatthanks guys /me must go ...Jul 08 14:39
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twitternon free software is an anomaly that's coming to an end.Jul 08 14:39
BobSpriteproprietary software was here long before free software, and will be here long after its gone as well.Jul 08 14:41
oiaohmWrong BobSpriteJul 08 14:42
oiaohmFirst software was free.Jul 08 14:42
oiaohmTurned Proprietary latter.Jul 08 14:42
BobSpritewhat about,  it being first or it remaining what it is today ??Jul 08 14:42
twitterSCADA systems using Windows is also an anomaly.  Most embedded applications use gnu/linux or bsd now and are much better for it.  SCADA systems as you know them are buggy, rooted shit.Jul 08 14:43
BobSpritemost SCADA do not use Linux actuallyJul 08 14:44
oiaohmMost early developers had no idea of what Propretary was about.Jul 08 14:44
oiaohmInstead shared code freely with each other to make progress.Jul 08 14:44
oiaohmIt was a latter idea to close the source code up and charge for it.Jul 08 14:45
twitterSCADA is a specific term.  It's kind of like saying Zune rules because you limit the "market" of music players to 30 GB brown models sold in june of 2007.Jul 08 14:45
oiaohmThe FOSS movement is really just pushing back to how the computer world started.Jul 08 14:45
twitterI used to work for an electric company, so I can tell you about the systems in use and what kind of trust operators have in Windows.Jul 08 14:46
oiaohmFOSS will always be around.Jul 08 14:47
oiaohmIn some form as it always has been.Jul 08 14:47
twitterM$ use in general happened for a short time.  Before it they used a mainframe, Unix variants, relay logic and analog systems.Jul 08 14:48
oiaohmPropretary is the abnormality.  There are getting less and less OS's of the Propretary class left because they are becoming less and less trusted.Jul 08 14:48
BobSpriteSCADA is a specific term for a specific systems is stands for Supervisory Control and Data Acquisition, its generally consists of RTU's and PLC's (remote terminal units, and programmable logic controllers), that report back to a supervisory computer that charts and reports and signals alarms, these days that are Windows systems, running CiTect and windowsJul 08 14:48
BobSpriteand OS's from the 1960's were proprietary and very very expensive, like os/360 from IBMJul 08 14:49
twitterI'm aware of the SCADA marketing term and yes it includes Windows, so you have a truism on your hand.Jul 08 14:49
twitterWindows has cost mor.Jul 08 14:49
twittermoreJul 08 14:49
twitterWindows was supposed to be cheaper, but it was not and it did not get the job done well either.Jul 08 14:50
BobSpritethe cost of the OS in the SCADA systems are trivial, compared to all the other expenses and code development.Jul 08 14:51
twitterThe cost of windows is never trivial.  Upkeep, poor function and data loss overshadow licensing costs, even at full retail.  Free software is always cheaper, which is why free software has taken over the embedded market.Jul 08 14:52
twitterThe only thing worse than keeping your data expensively is losing it cheaply.Jul 08 14:53
BobSpritejust does not happen in the real world, everone has solved those problems years ago, these systems run faultlessly for years and years on end.Jul 08 14:53
oiaohmLier BobSpriteJul 08 14:54
oiaohmReal world loves giving things curve balls.Jul 08 14:54
BobSpritewhateverJul 08 14:54
oiaohmWindows system here was resposnable for screwing up and causing raw sewage to be released.Jul 08 14:55
BobSpriteim sorry, i was dealing in the real world, not the lala land one, but you're welcome to your opinionJul 08 14:55
oiaohmNot everyone has solved it BobSpriteJul 08 14:56
oiaohmJust the small number of people you know.Jul 08 14:56
BobSpritewell if you cant solve them you're in the wrong job, and the small number I know is a huge number of very large orgainzations, like Sydney water,Jul 08 14:57
oiaohmAgain stupidity.Jul 08 14:58
oiaohmThere is no way to solve them all.  Ask brisbane.Jul 08 14:58
twitterSydney Water is small next to the company I used to work for, but you are entitled to your opinion.Jul 08 14:58
BobSpriteWTF?? ask brinbane ? about what ?Jul 08 14:59
oiaohmYou will not get a good answer about windows and its glitches from Brisbane water BobSprite.Jul 08 14:59
twitterand Windows problems have been solved by replacement.Jul 08 14:59
oiaohmdroped by a switch malfuctioning.Jul 08 15:00
BobSpriteits funny ive done work for brinbane water, and I know what OS they use for their SCADA system,  and can you link me to the so called gliches,Jul 08 15:00
oiaohmSo switch was acting as a network fuzzer.Jul 08 15:00
BobSpriteI worked for the company that designed and build and installed and mainted Sydney water, newcastle water, Hobart, Brisbane, maroochy most of the eash coast australia in fact.Jul 08 15:01
oiaohmCould have guessedJul 08 15:02
oiaohmWindows is sold as the only OS to do the job by them.Jul 08 15:03
BobSpritealot of them systems are windows, some are VMS on Dec Alpha's, and the PLC/RTU are made by "Watertech" now called Serc ( i think that is the spelling).Jul 08 15:04
BobSpritewe did alot of conversions from VMS to Windows and CiTect with little or no user problems.Jul 08 15:05
oiaohmAnd alpha chips have not been in produciton.Jul 08 15:06
oiaohmSo of course you have to do migrations.Jul 08 15:06
BobSpriteVMS is also available on the blade server and Itanium cpu's.Jul 08 15:06
BobSpriteand if someone ports it to the IA-32 and IA-64 platforms its goign to give Windows and Linux/Unix a real run for its money.Jul 08 15:07
oiaohmWindows yes.  Linux not so much.Jul 08 15:08
BobSpriteno VMS has some abilities and features that are not possible in Linux without a complete re-write, and VMS's clustering and file system and boot system is way better.Jul 08 15:09
oiaohmNot exactly true BobSprite.Jul 08 15:10
BobSpritewhat is not ?Jul 08 15:10
oiaohmThe mirror is true as well Linux has some features VMS does not either.Jul 08 15:10
BobSpritelike what ?Jul 08 15:10
zoobab01VMS is used for citical systemsJul 08 15:11
zoobab01like airplane controlling systemsJul 08 15:11
BobSpriteI know if it get's ported to x86 I would be putting it on my system, and helping port all C apps to it.Jul 08 15:11
zoobab01but people to support it are expensiveJul 08 15:12
BobSpriteVMS is used for clusters, and comes from the mainframes days, its has very very good backup and fallover protections,Jul 08 15:12
BobSpriteits rock solid and can be live upgraded right down to motherboard firmware, without requiring a system restart.Jul 08 15:13
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BobSpriteI have never ever ever seen of or heard of a VMS system crashing.Jul 08 15:14
oiaohmLinux has also been used in clusters.   Live upgrade of Linux is closing up on VMS.     Its the reason why its no so much.Jul 08 15:14
twitterM$ is not healthy, they teeter on failure worse than 1998 when they also lost billions of dollars a year. 08 15:15
oiaohmLot of performance alterations have been done on Linux getting it ahead in processing in places over VMS.Jul 08 15:15
BobSprite but you cannot cluster Linux just by connecting them together with a hubJul 08 15:15
twitterM$ has lost more than $40 billion dollars in cash alone in the last 4 years.Jul 08 15:15
twitterYou can cluster gnu/linux with a hub, it's called open mosixJul 08 15:16
oiaohmDepends on the configuation of the Linux you are talking about.Jul 08 15:16
BobSpriteyes normal vanilla Linux its a no go.Jul 08 15:16
twitterthe work has been done, you can get node software on CDrom or even a single floppy.Jul 08 15:16
BobSpritevms you just connect them together and your doneJul 08 15:16
balzacyeah, well the GNU license makes GNU/Linux specialJul 08 15:17
twittermaking a cluster is now as easy as booting a live CD.Jul 08 15:17
oiaohmDirect connection between motherboard works up to about 4096 processes with Linux.Jul 08 15:17
oiaohmAnd that is not a special BobSprite.Jul 08 15:17
balzacthe technical features from any other OS can be acquiredJul 08 15:17
twitterfree software is like thatJul 08 15:17
oiaohmLinux and VMS have gone two different paths.Jul 08 15:17
twitterthe important part of feature acquisition is that it can all be sharedJul 08 15:17
oiaohmSo two different markets no real theat to each other unless the other get the other ones tech.Jul 08 15:18
balzacBobSprite: why don't you care about sharing? Why do you wish to be subject to another administrator?Jul 08 15:18
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oiaohmThe mosix method stopped being majorly developed and SSI for hub connect took over.Jul 08 15:19
BobSpriteI care about quality and function, I dont see software as any different than RAM or a CPU, its a complex item and if I want to pay money for a product because it provides the function I need, and that im willing to pay for, I see that as my freedom to do so.Jul 08 15:19
BobSpriteI see people wanting to destroy Proprietary or non-free whatever as an attempt to reduce and restrict my freedom, that I take offense toJul 08 15:20
oiaohmThen load blancing took over from openssi.Jul 08 15:21
oiaohmAny ideas why.Jul 08 15:21
oiaohmBoard to board connect and ssi had about equal stablity when things went strangly wrong.Jul 08 15:21
oiaohmBoard to board connect is faster than any network cable.Jul 08 15:22
BobSpriteits certainly one very strong feature of VMS but its not the only one, its file system, its quota systen, the Virtual Memory system, the list is long and good.Jul 08 15:23
oiaohmquota system linux has equal.Jul 08 15:23
BobSpriteAwesome scripting languageJul 08 15:23
oiaohmI will give the scripting language.Jul 08 15:24
BobSpritefar richer command line language then Unix/LinuxJul 08 15:25
oiaohmI would not say richer.Jul 08 15:25
oiaohmI would say cleaner.Jul 08 15:25
BobSpriteall the sys$ commands and so on, are great, and the Rdb and SQL as wellJul 08 15:25
oiaohmThere are a lot of command line languages for Unix/Linux and there are some able to equal to the VMS.Jul 08 15:26
BobSpritethere are thousands of commands I would call that richJul 08 15:26
oiaohmBut syntax is not what you call as clean.Jul 08 15:26
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BobSpriteDCL/DCS is very clean, and there is always good old CJul 08 15:26
oiaohmIe there are a lot of rich lanaguges.Jul 08 15:26
oiaohmVery few clean languages.Jul 08 15:27
BobSpritethis is very clean,Jul 08 15:27
BobSpritecheck em out,  but yes, im sure most things you can also do with BASH or now days powershell too.Jul 08 15:27
oiaohmbash yes due to having all the other support bits on offer in the posix world.Jul 08 15:28
BobSpriteLinux does not have the versioning and spanning file system that VMS has and the virtual memory bit eitherJul 08 15:28
oiaohmpowershell not so much.Jul 08 15:28
oiaohmNot exactly true on that either BobSpriteJul 08 15:28
oiaohmA full versioning filesystem went into the most recent kernel.Jul 08 15:29
BobSpriteexp4 ?Jul 08 15:29
oiaohmbtrfs will follow close the gap.Jul 08 15:29
BobSpriteor rieserFS ?Jul 08 15:29
oiaohmnilfsJul 08 15:29
oiaohmOpps.Jul 08 15:30
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BobSpriteok npJul 08 15:30
oiaohm 08 15:30
oiaohmThe gap between what VMS and Linux can do is no large.Jul 08 15:31
oiaohmThe gap between what windows and VMS can do is huge.Jul 08 15:31
BobSpriteall the same, ive used and use Linux alot, I use windows alot, and ive used VMS alot, and if VMS hits the x86 world it will gain popularity and give good competition to Linux, and windows.Jul 08 15:31
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oiaohmLinux will hold out in areas.Jul 08 15:32
oiaohmdue to its unique features in handling huge systems.Jul 08 15:32
BobSpritenot uniqueJul 08 15:32
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oiaohmcgroups based of the solarias zone designs also closes gap on clustering.Jul 08 15:33
oiaohmLot has been done to Linux to make it handle huge systems well.Jul 08 15:34
oiaohmLinux is basically taken the best designs from across the Unix world.Jul 08 15:34
BobSpriteI know it has, but its not unique in that ability, and its true yes, most OS's are working towards better use with clustering and SMP and AsMP systems.Jul 08 15:35
BobSpriteIts just its been a stock standard feature on VMS for the past 20 yearsJul 08 15:35
oiaohmLinux higher returns on large systems are coming form alterations for real-time.Jul 08 15:35
oiaohmYes a really strange place to find speed boots for a large server.Jul 08 15:36
BobSpritein other words faster code makes more calculations !! sureJul 08 15:36
oiaohmIts not exactly faster code.Jul 08 15:36
oiaohmIts process allocation methods required so real-time can work.Jul 08 15:37
oiaohmbetter allocation higher percent of cpu's used better overall performance.Jul 08 15:37
oiaohmMost key thing is to get rid of as many locks as able.Jul 08 15:37
oiaohmAllocation system for systems over 1024 cores gets majorally fun.Jul 08 15:39
oiaohmIssue is the idea that server and real-time designs are not linked turns out to be wrong.Jul 08 15:42
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Omar87Hi there.Jul 08 15:52
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Muttleyis this where I can get help on moving from Rhythmbox to Banshee?Jul 08 16:49
neighborleeyesJul 08 16:55
Muttleygreat. because I love f-spot and wanted to give banshee a go ;)Jul 08 16:57
neighborleefine you should have no trouble doing soJul 08 16:57
neighborleejust be aware of the risksJul 08 16:58
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[zoobab] Amicus Briefs to the US Supreme Court in Bilski should be filed before the 6th of August or 2nd of October?Jul 08 16:58
Muttleyneighborlee: the risks?Jul 08 16:58
neighborleeMuttley, yes the risks..we should always be aware of what we use as it impacts the environment around us ;)Jul 08 16:59
MuttleyI'll try not to play my music too loudJul 08 17:00
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fgfgfgfheyJul 08 17:01
Muttleyhey heyJul 08 17:01
MuttleyNg: don't you work for novell?Jul 08 17:02
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Animeking2So, a thought occured to me, besides the fact that a company like microsoft shouldn;t have control of so many computers, should any company for that matter. Should we allow our standards, and other important programs become standardized, and controlled by a single organization, or company? Not sure if I wrote that right... :/Jul 08 17:10
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NgMuttley: no :)Jul 08 17:12
Animekingor worded that right for that matterJul 08 17:13
Muttleyng: fair enough, must be another ng ;)Jul 08 17:13
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neighborleeAnimeking, no you did fineJul 08 17:31
neighborleeAnimeking, and no we shouldn't..unless we have full confidence IN said companyJul 08 17:31
neighborleeAnimeking, and that is part of the concern of monoJul 08 17:31
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Omar87I can't seem to buy that Canonical will be replacing Rhythmbox with Banshee over nothing.Jul 08 17:54
Omar87There has to be more into it than just replacing one media player with another.Jul 08 17:55
Omar87Unless Banshee has been proven to be much more better than Rhythmbox (which is not), I don't see how this makes sense.Jul 08 17:56
Omar87And why Banshee, why not Audacious or Exaile?Jul 08 17:57
Omar87I don't know if this is just paranoia, but I'm starting to smell something bad going on under the table..Jul 08 17:58
NgOmar87: it's led entirely by users/developers liking banshee and wanting it to be the default playerJul 08 18:06
Omar87Ng: Still, that doesn't seem enough for an excuse to completely remove Rhythmbox.Jul 08 18:07
NgOmar87: - see the Rationale sectionJul 08 18:07
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Omar87Ng: Unless most of those Mono fanboi's are driven by M$ to include some sort of a trojan horse. (Remember what Bill Gates said about making people get sort of addicted?)Jul 08 18:08
NgOmar87: it's nothing to do with Microsoft :)Jul 08 18:09
Omar87Ng: Mono is an "open" implementation of a patented M$ technology,Jul 08 18:09
NgOmar87: I'm well aware of that, I mean the motivation to replace rhythmbox with banshee has nothing to do with Microsoft trojan horses, or Mono fanboysJul 08 18:10
Omar87Ng: M$ can still sue or collect money anytime they want. Because, in the end, it's their technology, and their patent.Jul 08 18:10
NgOmar87: (except where the Microsoft Community Promise applies)Jul 08 18:12
Omar87Ng: What promise?Jul 08 18:13
NgOmar87: it's been all over the web for the last few daysJul 08 18:13
NgOmar87: 08 18:13
Omar87Ng: Well then, that's another story..Jul 08 18:17
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trmancoschestowitz, are you back?Jul 08 18:43
trmancooh, he will be back tomorrowJul 08 18:44
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-BNc/#boycottnovell-[davidgerard] rt @CDemerjian Google can write Chrome OS on toilet paper with crayons, and it will still win because it is not MS. Industry reps matter.Jul 08 18:53
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[davidgerard] Dogs In Space official DVD at last! Unofficial extended soundtrack 08 19:08
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[zoobab] Peer to Patent project aims to create stronger software patents for Microsoft IBM and al: 08 19:08
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[zoobab] ACT (Microsoft puppet) don't like unlicensed free and open standards: 08 19:13
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[zoobab] Patent attorneys continue to spread the myth that the software industry needs software patents: 08 19:18
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twitterBill Gates, 1994 -> " If people had understood how patents would be granted when most of today's ideas were invented and had taken out patents, the industry would be at a complete standstill today.  ... The solution is patenting as much as we can. A future startup with no patents of its own will be forced to pay whatever price the giants choose to impose.  That price might be high. Established companies have an interest in excludingJul 08 20:04
twitterMany, many more informed quotes are found here, 08 20:05
twitterIt's pretty obvious by now that all the software innovation is happening in the free software world, where patents are scrupulously avoided and often cause great harm.Jul 08 20:06
twitterBusiness method patents are unAmerican.Jul 08 20:06
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[davidgerard] Dogs In Space DVD for the UK readers outrageous price thoJul 08 20:08
AnimekinghmmJul 08 20:09
Animekingdid neighbourlee or neighborlee leave?Jul 08 20:09
Aondoshort answer, yesJul 08 20:09
Animeking:|Jul 08 20:10
twitterRMS said it best, Animeking, software should not have owners.  When software has owners, your computer has owners besides yourself.  Software owners always extort control from users they should not have, regardless of size.  They ask you to trade your software freedoms for false convenience.Jul 08 20:10
twitterIf you don't have software freedom, you don't really own your computer and you can't really make it server your purposes.Jul 08 20:11
AnimekingThat is an interesting idea, but I would disagree if its a video game...since to me games are a form of art as well as softwareJul 08 20:12
Animeking:/ or would stallman disagree with this tooJul 08 20:13
twitterStallman has great appreciation for art.Jul 08 20:13
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[davidgerard] #mocknblock @Pegetables - mentioning a movie does not mean I want to kill dogs from malnutrition with your spammy dog foodJul 08 20:13
MinceRi consider video games to consist of two parts: the code and the contentJul 08 20:13
twitterAritist do not have to share their work any more than coders do.Jul 08 20:13
MinceRs/code/engine/Jul 08 20:13
twitterYet a well rounded free software collection contains a lot of art for games.Jul 08 20:14
twitterPeople enjoy sharing freely.Jul 08 20:14
twitterDon't you?Jul 08 20:14
twitterEven in the non free gaming world, a game's success is helped by the ability of fans to contribute art and mazes.Jul 08 20:15
twitterPeople should have the ability to share images as well as songs, movies and other culture.  I do not understand people who do not want to share and who would make it against the law for me to share with my friends.Jul 08 20:16
BobSpriteits when  you try to share something  you dont own thats the problemJul 08 20:17
twitterIt is easy for all of us to agree that people should be free to share free software and free art.Jul 08 20:17
BobSpriteand generally speaking people dont like to share, thats why they have bank accounts, doors, locks and so on.Jul 08 20:18
twitterIn a world where that happens, there might not be a market for those who wish to restrict others.Jul 08 20:18
twitterJust as there is no market for Britanica and Encarta in a world where people have cooperated to make Wikipedia.Jul 08 20:19
BobSpritein the real world you live by restrictions, and laws and rules, like it or not just because you want something does not give you the right to take it.Jul 08 20:19
twitterYet there are some who still think sharing should be limited and who would harm Wikipedia.Jul 08 20:19
twitterThey are criminals.Jul 08 20:19
BobSpriteand if FOSS was so carefull about patents, why do they keep getting tripped up with others patents in it ?Jul 08 20:20
twitterThey stand between you and the world's greatest library.Jul 08 20:20
twitterIf we were all allowed to share whatever we wanted, some commercial music and movies would go away but we would all have access to the most complete library of culture ever created.Jul 08 20:22
twitterThe difference between Wikipedia and Encarta is instructive.  Without copyright, free digital libraries would be richer than today's restricted libraries than Wikipedia is richer than Britanica.Jul 08 20:22
twitterDon't worry, Universities and others would be free to organize authoritative collections.Jul 08 20:23
twitterbblJul 08 20:23
twitter:)Jul 08 20:23
BobSpriteif the pinicle of FOSS is the creation of an OS that is the clone of a 40 year old OS and after 17 years hard work managed 1% ish of the market share. If freedom achieved that, and proprietary give us what we want and are willing to pay for ill stick with what works for me, and 90% of the rest of the planet, but good luck with it all the same.Jul 08 20:23
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zoobab01Bob: FOOS is not only about a free OSJul 08 20:25
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thenixedreportI figure it's already been asked, but are there any comments about the recent news of Microsoft in regards to Mono.Jul 08 20:28
MinceRooh, the m$ cultist got the final wordJul 08 20:44
MinceRpatheticJul 08 20:44
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Aondounless everyone else is dead, the final word will not be said :)Jul 08 20:50
ThistleWebI dunno, just because you're alive doens not mean you have to speak, or are able to, even if you do have something to say.....and if you're the only one left, who do you have to speak to? The point of speaking is to communicate after allJul 08 20:51
Aondoi'm glad i'm alive and not the only one leftJul 08 20:56
ThistleWebI suppose it'd feel the same if a handful of peeps were left, but spread out too far, that they all feel like the last peeps left; which would work great as a trigger to cash in all those "hey, remember you promised to let me screw you if we were the last people on the planet?" IOU'sJul 08 20:58
Aondo:PJul 08 20:58
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[trmanco] ♺ @linuxfoundation: Linux is clear winner in Google's OS news. Jim Zemlin's blog: 08 21:03
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Animeking...Jul 08 21:45
desuD:Jul 08 21:47
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Omar87By the way guys, regarding the "M$ Community Promise" thing, I don't know but I still can't seem to trust it.Jul 08 22:34
blankthemuffinthen you're an idiotJul 08 22:37
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[davidgerard] NotN: Differently-competent PM pleads against assisted career suicide 08 22:38
blankthemuffingo ask a lawyer to look at it or somethingJul 08 22:38
Omar87blankthemuffin: I'm not saying it's bogus. But I'm still feeling there might be more into it than just letting people use their patented technology for free all of a sudden.Jul 08 22:40
trmancotomboy is safeJul 08 22:40
trmancobuut I guess f-spot and banshee aren'tJul 08 22:40
trmancothey use for database stuffJul 08 22:40
Omar87trmanco: Why would it be safe?Jul 08 22:41
trmancothat isn't part of the standardJul 08 22:41
trmancoOmar87, well, "safe" in term of microsoft community promiseJul 08 22:41
trmancoterms*Jul 08 22:41
Omar87hmmJul 08 22:41
trmancothe only use what is covered by thatJul 08 22:41
trmancounless I'm missing something here?Jul 08 22:42
Omar87But then if people started using Mono and Linux what would happen to Visual Studio and Windows? Did Ballmer really loose his lust for fortune to the extent that he's jeopardizing two of the companies biggest projects?Jul 08 22:43
Omar87company's*Jul 08 22:45
trmancowindows developers will still use itJul 08 22:45
Omar87Yeah, but what about other people?Jul 08 22:45
trmanconot everything is written in c# on windowsJul 08 22:45
trmancowhich ones?Jul 08 22:45
ThistleWebwindows devs rely on the downtime for virus scans to use as paid coffee breaksJul 08 22:46
trmancothe ones who wan't cross platform?Jul 08 22:46
Omar87I'm talking in general.Jul 08 22:46
Omar87I know lot's of Linux fans who are also C# professionals.Jul 08 22:46
trmancoThistleWeb, I coffee break takes no more then 15 minutes, but a scan would take more than an hour, so I would guess they would better go out for lunch or something :-PJul 08 22:46
trmancomono develop will do :-PJul 08 22:47
ThistleWebit's a great excuse to extended the break thoughJul 08 22:47
ThistleWebsame with slow boot ups and shut downsJul 08 22:47
trmancoit's sort of a visual studio from the images I've seenJul 08 22:47
ThistleWebplenty of time to get your coffee in the morning, and switch off 5mins before you clock offJul 08 22:47
trmanco:-)Jul 08 22:48
blankthemuffinYou have to realise that no matter what balmer / ms does, windows is not going away for the foreseeable future.Jul 08 22:48
ThistleWebit also explains the obsession windows has with wanting to reboot at every fuckin' turnJul 08 22:48
ThistleWebit's only a professional OS if it can soak up the paid time of your employees while they cant get on with their work and be productive for youJul 08 22:49
blankthemuffinyeah md takes a fair bit from visual studio, it's not quite as good as vs, but it's getting there.Jul 08 22:49
trmanconobody said thatJul 08 22:49
ThistleWebthat carrot is held out for the next edition, with another new round of licencesJul 08 22:49
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ThistleWebif you can whip out a "well, I got infected so I'm protecting the network by doing a scan" as an excuse when caught with your feet up; now THAT's a professional OS, specially when you can do it several times per day with no questions askedJul 08 22:52
trmancohahaJul 08 22:54
ThistleWebanything that works too well, that it evaporates the skivers excuses won't be popular in the workplaceJul 08 22:54
trmancothen the company will sometime realize "it's time to go move Linux" and then no more breaks for anybodyJul 08 22:54
ThistleWebspecially if they have to learn new stuffJul 08 22:54
ThistleWebnot to mention all the poor parasites who sell you on security software which never really works properly, or sell you on repairs that last a few daysJul 08 22:56
ThistleWeboh the humanity, the job losesJul 08 22:56
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[trmanco] Orange UK exiles Firefox from call centers: Orange UK #failJul 08 22:58
ThistleWebnot using FF aint a big deal, the key is what they're using insteadJul 08 22:58
ThistleWeboh dear, IE6Jul 08 22:59
ThistleWebyou'd think the box companies have built themselves into with IE6 would be a lesson, when they do get round to (or can afford to) update their software to be able to move away from IE6, DON'T under any circumstances build for any one vendor's browser, otherwise you're just building a new box to replace the old one and will face the same headaches and expense againJul 08 23:02
ThistleWebmaybe the IE6 stuff will help solidify the idea of an open standard in some corporate minds, regardless of the Microsoft bullies attemtps to strongarm themJul 08 23:03
trmancoinstall, reboot and pray the it will boot :-PJul 08 23:05
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ThistleWebI don't doubt that any IT dept would be happy with the IE6 box they live in. Even if they're loyal MS sheep, they will see the advantage of IE7 or 8 with features and securityJul 08 23:14
ThistleWebanyone in an IT dept who sees no issue with being locked to IE6 should NOT be working there, they are a liabilityJul 08 23:14
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goblinhi allJul 08 23:21
trmancohelloJul 08 23:29
goblinhows it going?Jul 08 23:30
trmancogood for nowJul 08 23:31
goblinbuzz at the moment in the mainstream press seems to be the google OS.Jul 08 23:32
trmancoyeahJul 08 23:32
goblinits like they have never known any other OS to exist other than Windows.....that shows how good MS PR is....Jul 08 23:33
trmancogood thing it's linux basedJul 08 23:33
trmancotrueJul 08 23:33
goblinare you UK?Jul 08 23:33
trmanconoJul 08 23:33
goblinah....Jul 08 23:33
trmancobut I'm in the same timezone areaJul 08 23:33
trmanco;)Jul 08 23:33
goblinthe bbc has a show called Click...Jul 08 23:33
goblinits just as bad with its IT newsJul 08 23:34
trmanco;)Jul 08 23:34
goblinheres a thought for you......Jul 08 23:35
goblinis the EU anti trust campaign pointless?Jul 08 23:35
trmancowe here have also a news like program, where "a geek journalist" or at least he forces people to know him like that, promote windows and it's apps in televisionJul 08 23:35
goblinOpera didnt really have an argument to put forward IMO...Jul 08 23:36
trmancosame with a magazine, after various reader of it already begged to put some linux stuff on it, they refuse to listenJul 08 23:36
trmancowhich one? the browser anti trust?Jul 08 23:36
goblinsince I think the more new browsers we get (i.e Chrome) it simply eats away at Firefox's share...Jul 08 23:36
goblinsince those are the ones that want to move from IE in the first place...Jul 08 23:37
trmancoit's only really taking awai IE's share for nowJul 08 23:37
trmancoy*Jul 08 23:37
goblinI think many users stay with IE because they simply don't care or have no interest in their PC.  Its a tool for them...Jul 08 23:37
trmancotrueJul 08 23:37
ThistleWebwhen you think about it, the BBCm being funded as a PSB should be an outlet for stuff that dont have a commercial case, Microsoft and Apple CAN buy other news outlets and sponsoring, FOSS really cantJul 08 23:38
goblinvery true...Jul 08 23:38
trmancoa bunch of people don't really know how to install a app or are scared of installing 3rd party programs on their windows boxJul 08 23:38
ThistleWebnot as a promoter, but as an outlet to let peeps knowJul 08 23:38
ThistleWebthe whole point of PSB legitimacy is that it shows stuff that's important but wouldn't get a commercial chanceJul 08 23:39
goblinLet us not forget that Click bought a botnet in order to make a tv show at the expense of exploited users.Jul 08 23:39
trmancowowJul 08 23:39
trmancoyou can actually buy those thingsJul 08 23:39
trmanco:|Jul 08 23:39
goblinyeah, apparently all in the name of a good cause....Jul 08 23:39
trmancoyeah, sure it wasJul 08 23:39
goblinIf I had tried that and pulled that stunt I would have been arrested...Jul 08 23:40
ThistleWebso you use someone elses creidt cardJul 08 23:40
ThistleWeblike Mr T BlairJul 08 23:40
ThistleWeblmaoJul 08 23:40
goblinI did challenge them directly and point out the sections of the computer misuse act that they were in breach of.  I never got a reply.Jul 08 23:40
trmancoyou probably never willJul 08 23:41
ThistleWebthe BBC have long been a law unto themselves, the only peeps they need appease are the MP's every 10 years to renew the tough. A government of the people for the people is in full effect, the people in question are never gonna be you thoughJul 08 23:41
ThistleWebas long as you can shmoose your posh mates at the right time, it's all fineJul 08 23:42
goblinSince Ive had some emails from users allegedly being threatened by Phorm lawyers, I will be targetting them next, feature on my blog shortly with hopefully a lot of good examples of them trying to frighten me....Jul 08 23:42
ThistleWebthe unwashed taxed masses are never happyJul 08 23:42
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[davidgerard] At this point WikiHow needs to put up How To Jump A Shark. 08 23:43
trmancognJul 08 23:50
goblingnJul 08 23:50
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