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| jose_X | Wanted to draw attention to this http://www.linuxtoday.com/news_story.php3?ltsn=2009-07-08-013-35-OP-MS-DV-0011 | Jul 09 01:27 |
|---|---|---|
| jose_X | and this follow-up example http://www.linuxtoday.com/news_story.php3?ltsn=2009-07-08-013-35-OP-MS-DV-0012 | Jul 09 01:27 |
| jose_X | it would be interesting to look for more parallels here http://www.constitution.org/mac/prince00.htm | Jul 09 01:28 |
| jose_X | will be back later before getting off | Jul 09 01:29 |
| amarsh04 | ok jose_X | Jul 09 01:40 |
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| amarsh04 | are you still around jose_X ? | Jul 09 02:00 |
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| jose_X | just got back.. but won't stay long | Jul 09 02:05 |
| jose_X | amarsh04.. | Jul 09 02:06 |
| neighborlee | hi there jose how goes it | Jul 09 02:12 |
| jose_X | ok, .. won't stay long | Jul 09 02:12 |
| neighborlee | yup | Jul 09 02:13 |
| jose_X | going | Jul 09 02:24 |
| jose_X | going | Jul 09 02:24 |
| jose_X | gone | Jul 09 02:24 |
| jose_X | :-) | Jul 09 02:24 |
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| happy_camper | http://www.tectonic.co.za/?p=4861 | Jul 09 04:21 |
| happy_camper | Sad news | Jul 09 04:21 |
| happy_camper | But BN stays standing | Jul 09 04:22 |
| neighborlee | happy_camper, and thats a problem how exactly ;))lol | Jul 09 04:24 |
| Does not look like the end to me -> I will not, however, be posting new articles on the site from today and from the end of July I will disable the comments and discussion areas on the site. I have considered various options for extending Tectonic’s life without my input. Depending on resources these may or may not happen, but I am not promising. | Jul 09 04:26 | |
| happy_camper | Yes | Jul 09 04:26 |
| happy_camper | http://www.softwarefreedom.org/blog/2009/jul/06/black-duck-report-meaningless-without-source/ | Jul 09 04:27 |
| happy_camper | In short,Black Duck is all it seemed | Jul 09 04:27 |
| happy_camper | A copany made by Microsoftguys | Jul 09 04:27 |
| happy_camper | Now vilifying the GPL | Jul 09 04:27 |
| happy_camper | And praising the MS 'open source' licences | Jul 09 04:27 |
| happy_camper | Sending the message that proprietary s/w grows | Jul 09 04:28 |
| happy_camper | Miguel would be proud | Jul 09 04:28 |
| happy_camper | Mono... MIT licence... chunks of code | Jul 09 04:28 |
| happy_camper | "promise not to sue" (just a promise) | Jul 09 04:28 |
| no, it's a lie | Jul 09 04:28 | |
| happy_camper | Winform now officially patent synamite | Jul 09 04:29 |
| a lie by misdirection | Jul 09 04:29 | |
| happy_camper | The FOSS community gets poisoned from inside | Jul 09 04:29 |
| we won't sue you for A, B-Z is fair game. | Jul 09 04:29 | |
| happy_camper | http://www.itwire.com/content/view/26166/1090/ | Jul 09 04:29 |
| No, the free software movement is doing just fine, thanks. | Jul 09 04:29 | |
| happy_camper | Today, the head of the Free Software Foundation, Richard M. Stallman, told iTWire: "The preliminary report is that Microsoft's 'Community Promise' is quite inadequate. | Jul 09 04:30 |
| happy_camper | The community promise extends to two sets of specifications, 334 and 335, submitted to ECMA, a standards body. Stallman added: "The FSF will make a statement." | Jul 09 04:30 |
| happy_camper | Spread the word | Jul 09 04:30 |
| happy_camper | It's rubbish | Jul 09 04:30 |
| happy_camper | It's all rubbish | Jul 09 04:30 |
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| Well, that much was obvious. It's nice of the FSF and RMS to step up and say so. | Jul 09 04:31 | |
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| tessier | schestowitz: How was your vacation? | Jul 09 06:40 |
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| blankthemuffin | <happy_camper> "promise not to sue" (just a promise) << Yeah a legally binding, non-retractable promise. | Jul 09 06:52 |
| blankthemuffin | You might want to upgrade your tin hat to a 10 foot lead wall. | Jul 09 06:55 |
| BobSprite | do you think anything that they say would be considered "good enough", I dont | Jul 09 06:56 |
| blankthemuffin | Unless they GPL'ed all their software | Jul 09 06:58 |
| BobSprite | not even FOSS companies GPL all their software, like IBM, redhat, or conicail. | Jul 09 06:59 |
| BobSprite | Bitkeeper | Jul 09 06:59 |
| blankthemuffin | I don't like the GPL | Jul 09 06:59 |
| blankthemuffin | it's excessive. MIT boy here. | Jul 09 07:00 |
| BobSprite | alot of people have issues with the GPL | Jul 09 07:00 |
| MinceR | a lot of people have issues | Jul 09 07:00 |
| MinceR | :> | Jul 09 07:00 |
| MinceR | but of course, vague promises that some time in the future they will promise not to sue on some specific part of .net must be taken as assurance that it is perfectly safe to use the whole thing :> | Jul 09 07:02 |
| blankthemuffin | I'm kinda in two minds about it. | Jul 09 07:02 |
| MinceR | they've never been straightforward about the patent issues, that alone should be alarming. | Jul 09 07:03 |
| blankthemuffin | there's nothing vague about it though MinceR, they will not sue for any patents related to the two specifications, they can't retract this agreement unless you sue them. | Jul 09 07:03 |
| MinceR | that is when they'll include it in the CP | Jul 09 07:03 |
| BobSprite | its like them saying "here is C for you to use for free" and you saying "ok, but I want everything ever written in C as well". | Jul 09 07:03 |
| MinceR | the article was about that it "will" happen | Jul 09 07:03 |
| blankthemuffin | No it's happened MinceR | Jul 09 07:03 |
| MinceR | no, it's not like that | Jul 09 07:03 |
| BobSprite | CP is quite specific and clear | Jul 09 07:04 |
| blankthemuffin | yes it is, their community promise page says the CP covers it, they made a press release saying that it were so. | Jul 09 07:04 |
| MinceR | it's like them saying "you can use the C language" and me saying "1) great, after all those years you've had it released and 2) ok, but i want libc as well" | Jul 09 07:04 |
| MinceR | well, where's winforms and asp.net then? | Jul 09 07:04 |
| blankthemuffin | ASP.NET and WinForms implementations are still a bit grey, however they're being split out of the main mono implementation and are generally not used in Linux apps anyway. | Jul 09 07:04 |
| MinceR | "still a bit grey" -- you've nailed the whole issue on the head | Jul 09 07:05 |
| MinceR | they're keeping everyone in the dark | Jul 09 07:05 |
| blankthemuffin | Winforms isn't part of C# | Jul 09 07:05 |
| MinceR | wow, really? | Jul 09 07:05 |
| MinceR | it's part of .net though | Jul 09 07:06 |
| blankthemuffin | .NET* | Jul 09 07:06 |
| BobSprite | have you read the CP MincR, its quite clear and easy to understant, and winforms are ASP.net are apps written in C#, | Jul 09 07:06 |
| MinceR | and where's the rest of the class library anyway? | Jul 09 07:06 |
| blankthemuffin | no it isn't, it's part of microsoft's .NET implementation. | Jul 09 07:06 |
| MinceR | so how can someone make a .net implementation that's compatible with that? | Jul 09 07:07 |
| blankthemuffin | I don't see the issue with winforms anyway, worst case is we have to remove it and nothing happens. Linux apps made with mono don't use WinForms. | Jul 09 07:07 |
| BobSprite | exactly | Jul 09 07:07 |
| MinceR | even if we _assume_ that they _will_ include those patents they've mentioned in the CP | Jul 09 07:07 |
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| blankthemuffin | :facepalm: | Jul 09 07:07 |
| BobSprite | just like code in C that breaks patents or copyright or has issues, you replace it. | Jul 09 07:07 |
| MinceR | windows apps made for .net can't be run with mono (or mono extended with wine) without it. | Jul 09 07:07 |
| MinceR | well, yes | Jul 09 07:08 |
| blankthemuffin | It's very explicit about what it covers. The two specifications. There is no ambiguity. | Jul 09 07:08 |
| MinceR | mono/.net breaks patents therefore i replace it | Jul 09 07:08 |
| MinceR | yes, and it's very explicit about not covering the entirety of .net | Jul 09 07:08 |
| MinceR | at least if you take the pink-tinted sunglasses off | Jul 09 07:08 |
| BobSprite | I dont see issues or ambugity either, and its obvious you can write patent violating code using any language. | Jul 09 07:09 |
| blankthemuffin | MinceR, sure but that's got nothing to do with the normal issues people have with mono. Winforms is certainly not going to be part of the core mono implementation, nor will it have any applications depend on it. | Jul 09 07:09 |
| BobSprite | and you dont need forms, or .NET to use C# | Jul 09 07:09 |
| MinceR | BobSprite: the issue is that the standard library violates patents. | Jul 09 07:09 |
| blankthemuffin | No it doesn't MinceR, the standard library is one of those standards the CP covers. | Jul 09 07:09 |
| MinceR | i know someone who used to use ASP.NET on mono on linux | Jul 09 07:09 |
| BobSprite | so , rewrite the parts of the standard library that are at issue, | Jul 09 07:09 |
| blankthemuffin | There are two, the C# language, and the runtime/libraries. | Jul 09 07:10 |
| MinceR | (he moved or is moving away from it because of technical issues) | Jul 09 07:10 |
| MinceR | BobSprite: how do you rewrite an implementation of an idea if the idea itself is patented? | Jul 09 07:10 |
| blankthemuffin | You do it differently, see the marching cubes issues. | Jul 09 07:11 |
| MinceR | still, it's moot to discuss that news item until they really include those things in the CP, as opposed to claiming that it will happen at some random time in the future | Jul 09 07:11 |
| MinceR | until then it's just noise | Jul 09 07:11 |
| blankthemuffin | You don't understand MinceR, THEY ARE BOTH UNDER THE CP | Jul 09 07:11 |
| MinceR | are? | Jul 09 07:11 |
| MinceR | link please. | Jul 09 07:11 |
| BobSprite | the idea it self is the end result, but your issue is only with Windows, if you dont develop for windows whats the problem ? | Jul 09 07:11 |
| blankthemuffin | http://www.microsoft.com/interop/cp/default.mspx | Jul 09 07:12 |
| blankthemuffin | C# Language Specification - Ecma-334, 4th Edition and ISO/IEC 23270:2006 | Jul 09 07:12 |
| blankthemuffin | Common Language Infrastructure (CLI) - Ecma-335, 4th Edition and ISO/IEC 23271:2006 | Jul 09 07:12 |
| blankthemuffin | The CLI is the standard library and runtimes. The Language is the language. There is no ambiguity, there is no issue. | Jul 09 07:13 |
| MinceR | there's something fishy about that, considering that page says it was last updated on February 12, 2009 | Jul 09 07:13 |
| blankthemuffin | christ how do you move around with such a heavy lead hat? | Jul 09 07:14 |
| MinceR | how do you move around without a brain? | Jul 09 07:14 |
| MinceR | and by the way my name isn't christ | Jul 09 07:15 |
| blankthemuffin | It wasn't there when they made the press announcement, it was there a day or two after. | Jul 09 07:15 |
| BobSprite | yes, i dont see anyone removing C because TOMTOM had an issue with FAT | Jul 09 07:15 |
| MinceR | FAT isn't part of C nor is it part of libc | Jul 09 07:15 |
| MinceR | nor is it part of any C implementation | Jul 09 07:15 |
| BobSprite | MincR have you removed FAT and NTFS from your linux boxes ? | Jul 09 07:15 |
| blankthemuffin | WinForms isn't a part of C#, nor is it a part of the CLI | Jul 09 07:15 |
| MinceR | nope | Jul 09 07:15 |
| MinceR | i'll wait until they sue me :> | Jul 09 07:15 |
| MinceR | until then i won't rely on either | Jul 09 07:16 |
| MinceR | (at least to the extent that is possible) | Jul 09 07:16 |
| BobSprite | its still patent breaking, but for some reason thats ok, and mono is not !! | Jul 09 07:16 |
| blankthemuffin | nor is it a part of any CLI implementation, it's just bundled with microsoft .NET | Jul 09 07:16 |
| MinceR | then again, afaik there's prior art on the FAT patents anyway | Jul 09 07:16 |
| blankthemuffin | There's prior art on mono too, java. | Jul 09 07:16 |
| MinceR | BobSprite: the difference is what happens if the projects we rely on are destroyed via a lawsuit | Jul 09 07:16 |
| BobSprite | No its a part of the GPL'd Linux kernel !! | Jul 09 07:16 |
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| MinceR | java and mono aren't the same thing. | Jul 09 07:17 |
| blankthemuffin | Wow you think MinceR? I thought they were exactly the same. If you know both of these environments you'd know that they are very similar. A lot of people consider .NET to simply be a way for microsoft to get around issues with making their own java ( remember when sun sued them? ). | Jul 09 07:18 |
| MinceR | it is | Jul 09 07:18 |
| MinceR | yet it's been redesigned to some extent | Jul 09 07:18 |
| MinceR | and i think it's unwise to alter the linux desktop to rely on it to a large degree. | Jul 09 07:19 |
| MinceR | because it will be costly to fix if it turns out to be necessary (because of a lawsuit, for instance) | Jul 09 07:19 |
| MinceR | redesigning means it does some parts differently and as a result may rely on different patents | Jul 09 07:20 |
| MinceR | the status of which is unclear | Jul 09 07:20 |
| MinceR | and m$ has done very little to clear up the issue | Jul 09 07:20 |
| BobSprite | You think MS will sue individuals ? | Jul 09 07:20 |
| MinceR | i don't know who they'll sue | Jul 09 07:20 |
| BobSprite | I know who they wont sue, | Jul 09 07:21 |
| MinceR | both m$ and novell were both deliberately unclear about the patent issue, this means they're likely planning to do something evil. | Jul 09 07:21 |
| MinceR | BobSprite: their own customers? | Jul 09 07:21 |
| BobSprite | you have read teh CP right, and the Q and A at the end ? | Jul 09 07:22 |
| MinceR | the Q and A isn't legally binding | Jul 09 07:22 |
| MinceR | i haven't read it | Jul 09 07:22 |
| MinceR | i've read a part of it to see what it is | Jul 09 07:23 |
| MinceR | (an "irrevocable promise not to sue", iirc) | Jul 09 07:23 |
| BobSprite | perhaps you should, its better than speculation, its quite clear and concise | Jul 09 07:23 |
| MinceR | (i wonder why a "patent license" isn't cool enough for m$) | Jul 09 07:23 |
| MinceR | if you want to see speculation, you should have seen how the mono page explained the patent issue :> | Jul 09 07:24 |
| BobSprite | it seems that FOSS is happy to use technologies if they do not have permission to do so (like FAT) but when MS give their permission they get confused by the gesture, | Jul 09 07:24 |
| MinceR | (perhaps they've fixed it now -- it was a link to an email that was supposed to prove something) | Jul 09 07:24 |
| MinceR | that's because m$ gave permission late and in very likely an incomplete form | Jul 09 07:24 |
| MinceR | (that is, some parts of .net aren't covered) | Jul 09 07:25 |
| BobSprite | but yet its ok to use things of theirs without any permissions and regardless of patents. | Jul 09 07:25 |
| BobSprite | i find that a bit hypocritical | Jul 09 07:25 |
| blankthemuffin | So how is it not prior art. Unless my legalese escapes me, prior art does not mean 'a carbon copy of'. | Jul 09 07:26 |
| blankthemuffin | it is a patent licence MinceR | Jul 09 07:26 |
| blankthemuffin | Yes, the CP is legally binding upon Microsoft. The CP is a unilateral promise from Microsoft and in these circumstances unilateral promises may be enforced against the party making such a promise. Because the CP states that the promise is irrevocable, it may not be withdrawn by Microsoft. The CP is, and will be, available to everyone now and in the future for the specifications to which it | Jul 09 07:26 |
| blankthemuffin | applies. As stated in the CP, the only time Microsoft can withdraw its promise against a specific person or company for a specific Covered Specification is if that person or company brings (or voluntarily participates in) a patent infringement lawsuit against Microsoft regarding Microsoft’s implementation of the same Covered Specification. This type of “suspension” clause is common in | Jul 09 07:26 |
| blankthemuffin | dustry practice. | Jul 09 07:27 |
| blankthemuffin | wow that was more than I expected | Jul 09 07:27 |
| blankthemuffin | sorry about that | Jul 09 07:27 |
| blankthemuffin | Microsoft were always going to do this, since they first released .NET it was their plan. | Jul 09 07:27 |
| MinceR | so you can't understand the difference between relying on FAT patents of unknown state (probably with prior art and/or being an obvious patent) to access filesystems _we already had to begin with_ and relying on .net/mono patents to develop _wholly new applications_? | Jul 09 07:27 |
| BobSprite | it could not be more clear and easy to understand | Jul 09 07:28 |
| blankthemuffin | Do you use microsoft products MinceR? | Jul 09 07:28 |
| MinceR | actually it could be more clear | Jul 09 07:28 |
| MinceR | blankthemuffin: sadly, i do | Jul 09 07:28 |
| BobSprite | FOSS did not have FAT to begin with, FOSS did not invent FAT, FAT was popular because of MS and FOSS used it for that very reason | Jul 09 07:28 |
| MinceR | nope | Jul 09 07:29 |
| MinceR | FAT was popular because m$ took over the desktop PC market and used it exclusively for a long time | Jul 09 07:29 |
| MinceR | btw, not the entirety of the FAT implementation is problematic, only the _creation_ of LFN-s, iirc | Jul 09 07:29 |
| BobSprite | and MS owns the patent for it as well, it was and is popular, thats why Linux and TOMTOM used it | Jul 09 07:29 |
| MinceR | which i doubt i rely on | Jul 09 07:30 |
| blankthemuffin | You don't see the difference between knowingly infringing ambiguous unknown patents and having a patent covenant granted which explicitly defines what is covered. | Jul 09 07:30 |
| MinceR | blankthemuffin: and we already know it leaves out some parts | Jul 09 07:30 |
| MinceR | that's part of what makes it so suspicious. | Jul 09 07:30 |
| blankthemuffin | Or you see a difference, but somehow you see the latter as more scary. | Jul 09 07:30 |
| blankthemuffin | Of course we do, otherwise they would have revoked patent rights for all of their patents. | Jul 09 07:31 |
| blankthemuffin | Those bastards, they want people to use their language! I bet they're really trying to destroy linux. | Jul 09 07:31 |
| BobSprite | im sure MS's attitude is about this "we've given it to you, we've made a clear statement about its fair use, if you dont like it fine, dont use it, there are planty that do use it, " | Jul 09 07:32 |
| MinceR | that's fine, until they don't try to push it into the distro i'm using | Jul 09 07:32 |
| MinceR | s/don't// | Jul 09 07:33 |
| BobSprite | By the way the IT industry is very cut throat if you dont have C# and .NET experience your behind the 8 ball big time | Jul 09 07:33 |
| blankthemuffin | What, microsoft have nothing to do with your distro. | Jul 09 07:33 |
| MinceR | well, excuse me for not trusting m$ blindly after their history. | Jul 09 07:33 |
| blankthemuffin | I'm not trusting ms blindly. Anybody who thinks that MS are not going to gain from this are idiots. | Jul 09 07:33 |
| BobSprite | IBM have a much longer anti-trust history, you trust them now dont you ? | Jul 09 07:33 |
| MinceR | i trust them more, yes | Jul 09 07:34 |
| MinceR | but not entirely. | Jul 09 07:34 |
| MinceR | still, it's m$ that's trying to destroy the OS i'm using | Jul 09 07:34 |
| BobSprite | they been in courts for anti-trust from the 40's and 50's | Jul 09 07:34 |
| MinceR | m$ has been in courts for that too | Jul 09 07:34 |
| MinceR | and they've escaped practically unscathed | Jul 09 07:34 |
| MinceR | they were punished inadequately | Jul 09 07:35 |
| blankthemuffin | But that's not the point at all. MS are going to gain from this, but not by destroying linux. They're going to gain when more people use .NET for cross-platform development. Not to mention the large good-will created by something like this. | Jul 09 07:35 |
| BobSprite | what by releasing tools to help you be productive and assisting with the creation of more GPL'd code they are trying to destroy your OS,,, i dont think so. | Jul 09 07:35 |
| BobSprite | I think that is FUD, | Jul 09 07:35 |
| MinceR | m$'s idea of "cross platform development" is start on any platform, then finish on windows | Jul 09 07:35 |
| blankthemuffin | Calling it 'M$' is incredibly childish anyway. It's just a company. | Jul 09 07:36 |
| MinceR | BobSprite: remember "Linux is a cancer"? i do. | Jul 09 07:36 |
| blankthemuffin | Sure it is MinceR. | Jul 09 07:36 |
| BobSprite | how long ago was that statement made MinceR ? | Jul 09 07:36 |
| MinceR | it's just a company that did everything it could to destroy all opposition in the field of IT and ended up almost destroying the industry. | Jul 09 07:36 |
| MinceR | BobSprite: does it matter? do we forget so easily? | Jul 09 07:36 |
| blankthemuffin | But M$ still need better products to make that a reality. Linux needs better products to make the opposite a reality. The platform is irreverent. | Jul 09 07:36 |
| BobSprite | thats your opinion, but most see the "industry" as strong and healthy. | Jul 09 07:37 |
| MinceR | most on the payroll of m$, that is | Jul 09 07:37 |
| blankthemuffin | I suppose google is evil also | Jul 09 07:37 |
| MinceR | what has that have to do with this? | Jul 09 07:37 |
| blankthemuffin | and pretty much every other company on the face of the earth, because they're not out doing everything for you for nothing. | Jul 09 07:37 |
| MinceR | few come close to m$ | Jul 09 07:37 |
| MinceR | again, study their history | Jul 09 07:37 |
| MinceR | and the internal mail that was leaked/revealed. | Jul 09 07:38 |
| blankthemuffin | Please MinceR, enlighten me to specific events. | Jul 09 07:38 |
| BobSprite | no not like Madoff, enron, union carbide and so on. | Jul 09 07:38 |
| MinceR | i have a better idea. i go to work and you search the web. | Jul 09 07:38 |
| blankthemuffin | You're being awfully ambiguous with your statements. | Jul 09 07:38 |
| MinceR | BobSprite: i don't rely on patents owned by madoff, enron or union carbide. | Jul 09 07:38 |
| blankthemuffin | So it's my problem your argument is flawed? Right o. | Jul 09 07:38 |
| blankthemuffin | MinceR, Microsoft have patents which cover parts of ip, I don't see you boycotting that. | Jul 09 07:39 |
| BobSprite | you do rely on patents from MS even though you are not legally using them, you are benifitting from them | Jul 09 07:39 |
| MinceR | i've paid them more than they deserve already. | Jul 09 07:39 |
| MinceR | and they've done a lot more damage than that | Jul 09 07:40 |
| blankthemuffin | Do you see microsoft as a single entity, where everybody is bad? | Jul 09 07:40 |
| MinceR | destroying companies they couldn't compete on grounds of merit, for example | Jul 09 07:40 |
| BobSprite | so that gives you the right to break the law, ok fair enough its an indication of your morals. | Jul 09 07:40 |
| MinceR | blankthemuffin: why does it matter, if their leadership keeps the company in hand and they're evil? | Jul 09 07:40 |
| MinceR | BobSprite: try making sense next time. | Jul 09 07:40 |
| MinceR | bbl | Jul 09 07:40 |
| BobSprite | name a company that was the subject of a hostile takeover from MS, or in other words name a company that did not say YES when asked to be bought by MS | Jul 09 07:41 |
| blankthemuffin | The bottom line is, have your opinion about microsoft. It doesn't matter. It's got nothing to do with mono, and it's certainly got nothing to do with applications developed with mono. Mono shouldn't be included in distros by default. It's worthless to users. However applications should not be excluded on the basis of unconditional fear. | Jul 09 07:44 |
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| BobSprite | the mono thing is just seen as an excuse to help focus hate on MS, would it matter what MS did or said ? I doubt it. | Jul 09 07:56 |
| BobSprite | you boycott Novell, and I guess that is fair enough, but you are quite happy with IBM and was IBM that made MS the giant it is today. but for some reason they are ok, and novell is not. | Jul 09 08:00 |
| BobSprite | You should really hate IBM, but you dont ???!!! go figure ! | Jul 09 08:01 |
| BobSprite | Google are releasing their own Linux Distro, its called Chrome. | Jul 09 08:04 |
| blankthemuffin | Google are the worst, they're out to steal all my data | Jul 09 08:06 |
| BobSprite | http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5F7SUWb9LPI&feature=related | Jul 09 08:08 |
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| trmanco | http://www.microsoft.com/windowsxp/eula/pro.mspx | Jul 09 08:26 |
| -BNc/#boycottnovell-[trmanco] ♺ @sagarun: RT: @scorpfromhell: RT @SwaroopH: RT @brainstuck: MS XP pro EULA contains only ONE word - http://tr.im/rvYt | LOL! | Jul 09 08:28 | |
| desu | i lol'd | Jul 09 08:31 |
| BobSprite | but what a good word it is !! | Jul 09 08:34 |
| BobSprite | mabey its some kind of TEST ??? | Jul 09 08:34 |
| MinceR | btw, the tomtom issue reflects pretty well that m$'s attitude towards Linux hasn't changed since they called it a "cancer" | Jul 09 09:13 |
| MinceR | BobSprite: regarding the EULA thing, get a sense a of humor. | Jul 09 09:13 |
| MinceR | as for IBM, it's their management mistakes and incompetence that allowed m$ make itself into what it is | Jul 09 09:14 |
| MinceR | 091455 < BobSprite> the mono thing is just seen as an excuse to help focus hate on MS, would it matter what MS did or said ? I doubt it. | Jul 09 09:14 |
| MinceR | nope. mono is being pushed into gnu/linux despite the fact that it's never been shown to be safe -- for all we know it's a patent trap. | Jul 09 09:14 |
| MinceR | their latest step with the CP might be a good step to fix that. | Jul 09 09:15 |
| MinceR | but i'm waiting for independent reports/opinions/analysis on it. | Jul 09 09:15 |
| BobSprite | but its clear it's not more a patent trap then the linux kernel is, and its perfectly within MS or IBM or anyones rights to enforce the existing laws, infact I believe they are required to do so, just like Linus Torvalds has to enforce tradement on the Linux name | Jul 09 09:21 |
| desu | lol | Jul 09 09:22 |
| MinceR | the linux kernel wasn't developed by a hostile external entity and it wasn't designed on the patents of such an entity | Jul 09 09:22 |
| desu | you don't know much about either, do you? | Jul 09 09:22 |
| BobSprite | but all the same, neither was Mono, but they seem both to have issues, but you are selective of one, but you let the other pass, thats a clear bias. | Jul 09 09:23 |
| Ng | be that as it may, it's entirely likely that linux infringes on various patents in some juristictions, simply from its size | Jul 09 09:23 |
| Ng | afaict basically any large bit of software probably does | Jul 09 09:23 |
| MinceR | BobSprite: no, you are merely incapable of understanding the difference between the two case. that isn't my problem. | Jul 09 09:23 |
| BobSprite | So its not the law or morals you are trying to uphold, just your belief system and personal biases | Jul 09 09:23 |
| MinceR | no, i'm trying to maintain a system that can be maintained legally and prosper | Jul 09 09:24 |
| BobSprite | and yet, even though it might breach patents you still happily use it. | Jul 09 09:24 |
| blankthemuffin | MinceR, the linux kernel also wasn't standardised by EMCA, and it also doesn't have a patent covenant from microsoft. | Jul 09 09:24 |
| BobSprite | well then strip out all the C code because you can break patents with C, | Jul 09 09:24 |
| MinceR | blankthemuffin: Ecma standardizes whatever is submitted to them accompanied by a bundle of cash. | Jul 09 09:25 |
| MinceR | blankthemuffin: and m$ doesn't demonstrably own patents on linux. | Jul 09 09:25 |
| MinceR | blankthemuffin: the tomtom case was settled. | Jul 09 09:25 |
| BobSprite | It's clear the linux kernel has patent issues, yet you happily use it, but you refuse to use something that has less issues because of the source of it, | Jul 09 09:25 |
| MinceR | BobSprite: read what i've said about C, i'm not going to repeat myself. | Jul 09 09:25 |
| MinceR | BobSprite: prove that the linux kernel has patent issues. | Jul 09 09:26 |
| blankthemuffin | MinceR, prove to me that mono has patent issues. | Jul 09 09:26 |
| blankthemuffin | Oh wait that's impossible. | Jul 09 09:26 |
| BobSprite | It has FAT, it has known patent issues, why are they trying so hard to modify the FAT to make it compliant ? | Jul 09 09:26 |
| blankthemuffin | And it's also impossible to prove otherwise. | Jul 09 09:26 |
| MinceR | blankthemuffin: it has been done by others already. that's what this channel is all about. | Jul 09 09:26 |
| MinceR | BobSprite: read up on the FAT issue. also read what i've said about it already. | Jul 09 09:27 |
| blankthemuffin | No it hasn't MinceR, I have not seen a single reference to a patent from this channel, nor boycott novell in general. | Jul 09 09:27 |
| MinceR | blankthemuffin: there's also a website, you might be interested in it. | Jul 09 09:27 |
| BobSprite | you can say what you like, the FAT issue is real, and its not gone away, | Jul 09 09:27 |
| blankthemuffin | hence the 'in general' | Jul 09 09:27 |
| MinceR | blankthemuffin: http://boycottnovell.com/ | Jul 09 09:27 |
| blankthemuffin | MinceR, yes I'm well aware of the website. | Jul 09 09:28 |
| MinceR | blankthemuffin: then stop acting like you aren't. | Jul 09 09:28 |
| blankthemuffin | <blankthemuffin> No it hasn't MinceR, I have not seen a single reference to a patent from this channel, nor boycott novell in general. | Jul 09 09:28 |
| BobSprite | does it mean we have to leave facts at the door when we come here ? | Jul 09 09:29 |
| MinceR | BobSprite: you already have. | Jul 09 09:29 |
| MinceR | too late to ask. | Jul 09 09:29 |
| BobSprite | like what ? | Jul 09 09:29 |
| blankthemuffin | It's funny how we left facts at the door and you don't seem to know anything beyond it's obvious go google it. | Jul 09 09:31 |
| MinceR | you're obviously trying to waste my time by trolling. go away. | Jul 09 09:31 |
| BobSprite | thats usually the call made when all logic and arguments are exhausted :) | Jul 09 09:32 |
| blankthemuffin | Yes, I'm wasting my time wasting your time because your time is way more worthwhile than mine. It's obvious. | Jul 09 09:33 |
| blankthemuffin | Nice subtle I'm better than you remark by the way | Jul 09 09:34 |
| BobSprite | who ? | Jul 09 09:34 |
| blankthemuffin | <MinceR> you're obviously trying to waste my time by trolling. go away. Implying his time is more worthwhile than my own. | Jul 09 09:35 |
| Ng | do microsoft have patents on their file sharing and directory technologies? I think it's odd that mono is singled out for so much attention when everyone has been shipping samba by default for years | Jul 09 09:35 |
| BobSprite | oh yea, ok, I just read it as he's ran out of good arguments | Jul 09 09:35 |
| BobSprite | they singled mono out, because they need something against MS to bash, and Vista seems successful now so they have to bash something. | Jul 09 09:36 |
| desu | samba is required | Jul 09 09:36 |
| desu | mono is not | Jul 09 09:37 |
| Ng | that's entirely usecase dependent | Jul 09 09:37 |
| desu | mono is just being pushed when there are better alternatives available | Jul 09 09:37 |
| blankthemuffin | Samba isn't required. I don't use it. However I do use Mono. As Ng says, it's context dependent and any assertions otherwise are naive. | Jul 09 09:37 |
| Ng | desu: the relative qualities are your subjective opinion | Jul 09 09:38 |
| blankthemuffin | desu, as a programmer, I don't think there are better alternatives. And since I'm doing the programming I believe that's my freedom to choose. Not to mention the choice of platform, like your previous argument, is incredibly context sensitive and once again, any assertions otherwise are naive. | Jul 09 09:39 |
| desu | i believe i speak for 90% of the desktop users when i say that most users would rather have samba by default than mono | Jul 09 09:39 |
| BobSprite | i use mono far more than samba | Jul 09 09:39 |
| mitsuhiko | ditto | Jul 09 09:39 |
| Ng | desu: citation needed, that's an extraordinary assumption to make | Jul 09 09:39 |
| desu | Ng: an average desktop user is not a programmer | Jul 09 09:39 |
| BobSprite | I have not used samba for over 10 years, and do i miss it,, not for a second. | Jul 09 09:39 |
| blankthemuffin | I believe 99.99% of all statistics are made up on the spot in order to help sustain an entirely flawed argument. | Jul 09 09:39 |
| desu | he most likely does, however, have windows machiens | Jul 09 09:40 |
| Ng | desu: irrelevant, mono is a runtime for applications, it's quite likely that the vast majority of its users are not programmers | Jul 09 09:40 |
| desu | blankthemuffin: and you made that statistic up | Jul 09 09:40 |
| blankthemuffin | The average desktop user does not need to know what mono is desu. It's not their problem. | Jul 09 09:40 |
| desu | Ng: and there are better alternatives available for those apps | Jul 09 09:40 |
| MinceR | 105423 < BobSprite> oh yea, ok, I just read it as he's ran out of good arguments | Jul 09 09:40 |
| Ng | desu: again, that's your subjective opinion | Jul 09 09:40 |
| MinceR | why look for new arguments if you won't even consider the old ones? | Jul 09 09:40 |
| MinceR | 105515 < BobSprite> they singled mono out, because they need something against MS to bash, and Vista seems successful now so they have to bash something. | Jul 09 09:40 |
| MinceR | i lol'd | Jul 09 09:40 |
| desu | blankthemuffin: it is his problem, however, if it's taking up valuiable space on the live CD and can be replaceeed by something faster and smaller. | Jul 09 09:40 |
| blankthemuffin | desu, please provide a case for that. | Jul 09 09:41 |
| desu | it's kinda stupid how the mono guys want gimp out when it takes only 26MB but are still pushing for LOL40MB omono | Jul 09 09:41 |
| Ng | which of the mono guys want gimp out? | Jul 09 09:41 |
| desu | blankthemuffin: almost every mono app has better alternatives available | Jul 09 09:41 |
| Ng | afaik, the person who suggested that was Rick Spencer, Canonical's desktop team manager, who is nothing to do with mono | Jul 09 09:42 |
| blankthemuffin | desu, name them please. | Jul 09 09:42 |
| desu | Ng: ubuntu | Jul 09 09:42 |
| Ng | desu: oh so "mono guys" means anyone who ships mono, not the people who make it? | Jul 09 09:42 |
| Ng | still, it was one person's *suggestion* | Jul 09 09:42 |
| desu | rick spencer has worked for microsoft, as some reports have revealed | Jul 09 09:42 |
| Ng | that's not a secret :) | Jul 09 09:43 |
| BobSprite | yes, so what. | Jul 09 09:43 |
| blankthemuffin | Ah so he's a double agent, in linux just to destroy it from the inside. | Jul 09 09:43 |
| Ng | I know rick, he's a nice guy who is very passionate about his job at canonical | Jul 09 09:43 |
| desu | the very fact that mono is being pushed like a mofo shows that microsoft is hard at work | Jul 09 09:43 |
| Ng | desu: mono is not being pushed, compelling applications are | Jul 09 09:44 |
| blankthemuffin | Where is it being pushed 'like a mofo' | Jul 09 09:44 |
| BobSprite | or thats its good and has been very very popular in MS circles for years. | Jul 09 09:44 |
| desu | those "compelling applications" are slow hogs, and there are better alternatives available. | Jul 09 09:44 |
| blankthemuffin | no that's silly Ng, he's obviously been sent to Canonical by MS so microsoft can destroy linux from the inside. | Jul 09 09:44 |
| blankthemuffin | Please desu, I'm waiting for statistics to back up your claims. | Jul 09 09:44 |
| desu | blankthemuffin: statistics for what? | Jul 09 09:45 |
| BobSprite | Dont hold your breath | Jul 09 09:45 |
| Ng | desu: I found banshee to be typically more responsive than rhythmbox, especially when dealing with portable music players, so my subjective experience/opinion differs from yours :) | Jul 09 09:45 |
| blankthemuffin | all these things you are claiming. <desu> i believe i speak for 90% of the desktop users when i say that most users would rather have samba by default than mono <desu> blankthemuffin: it is his problem, however, if it's taking up valuiable space on the live CD and can be replaceeed by something faster and smaller. <desu> blankthemuffin: almost every mono app has better alternatives available <desu> the very fact that mono is being pushed | Jul 09 09:45 |
| blankthemuffin | like a mofo shows that microsoft is hard at work | Jul 09 09:45 |
| trmanco | http://www.packetstormsecurity.org/unix-humor/ABCs_of_UNIX.txt | Jul 09 09:45 |
| blankthemuffin | <desu> those "compelling applications" are slow hogs, and there are better alternatives available. | Jul 09 09:45 |
| blankthemuffin | all these things could do with some actual facts to back them up, but hey, what would I know. | Jul 09 09:45 |
| BobSprite | 90% of desktop users, are windows users, and they dont know or care about samba or mono, or vista, or XP or Win7, and would not know a Linux if they were hit over the head with a CD | Jul 09 09:46 |
| desu | blankthemuffin: there are several articles on boycottnovell's website... go read them if you need any facts... | Jul 09 09:46 |
| blankthemuffin | Please desu, link me to these. | Jul 09 09:47 |
| desu | 90% of the desktop users will, however, want something faster... | Jul 09 09:47 |
| blankthemuffin | desu, I'm not here to present your argument for you. | Jul 09 09:47 |
| desu | blankthemuffin: http://boycottnovell.com/ | Jul 09 09:47 |
| blankthemuffin | You know, mono being 'pushed like a mofo' could possibly just mean that it's good. | Jul 09 09:47 |
| Ng | I suggest you say "I think a lot" instead of "90%", since that's what you really mean | Jul 09 09:47 |
| desu | and i'm not here to do your homework | Jul 09 09:47 |
| BobSprite | well they dont actually, they are generally very happy with what they have, and they dont even know what it is generally. | Jul 09 09:47 |
| BobSprite | what would they use Samba for ? | Jul 09 09:48 |
| blankthemuffin | desu, I've done my homework. I'm knowledgeable in various aspects of mono and .net, but it seems you're much more versed in the statistics than me and I'd like you to help me out with some concrete numbers. | Jul 09 09:48 |
| desu | BobSprite: if they want to link with windows machines, they have to use samba. on the other hand, there are alternatives to what mono applications are there | Jul 09 09:49 |
| blankthemuffin | I'm especially having trouble with "<desu> blankthemuffin: almost every mono app has better alternatives available" please, case studies would be nice. | Jul 09 09:49 |
| blankthemuffin | this also "<desu> blankthemuffin: it is his problem, however, if it's taking up valuiable space on the live CD and can be replaceeed by something faster and smaller." | Jul 09 09:50 |
| desu | blankthemuffin: yes, i'm looking for that page... | Jul 09 09:50 |
| BobSprite | I know what samba is, but you dont need it if you dont use Linux, windows talks to windows no problems, and you can and most do use windows servers in business, no samba in sight | Jul 09 09:50 |
| desu | i had seen that page somehwre | Jul 09 09:50 |
| blankthemuffin | it's ok desu, I'll wait. | Jul 09 09:50 |
| BobSprite | Most file serves and back office systems are Windows based. | Jul 09 09:50 |
| MinceR | you can use windows servers in business and it is it's own punishment. :> | Jul 09 09:50 |
| MinceR | s/'// | Jul 09 09:50 |
| BobSprite | I know you can, and most people do, and very happily and successfuly too | Jul 09 09:51 |
| desu | boycottnovell.com/wiki/index.php/Mono_Applications | Jul 09 09:52 |
| MinceR | trmanco: nice | Jul 09 09:52 |
| trmanco | :> | Jul 09 09:52 |
| blankthemuffin | OH I see, this has nothing to do with Mono after all | Jul 09 09:54 |
| blankthemuffin | it's all just about their licences. | Jul 09 09:54 |
| blankthemuffin | Monsoon and monotorrent use the MIT/X11 licence. It's not good for GNU/Linux to promote permissive licences; instead use GNU GPLv3 or copyleft licenses. And MIT/X11 is not good for protecting projects against software patents. | Jul 09 09:54 |
| blankthemuffin | It's good to see the authors understand these things. | Jul 09 09:54 |
| blankthemuffin | Criticism: Although it is a good player with a bad interface, it is sponsored by Novell and because this Banshee uses a very permissive licence -- not sufficient to protect multimedia contents and not good to protect the project against patents. | Jul 09 09:54 |
| MinceR | part of the criticism is that they all rely on mono, obviously | Jul 09 09:55 |
| blankthemuffin | Obviously, but it seems most of the criticisms are about external issues. | Jul 09 09:55 |
| desu | that seems to be your personal interpretation | Jul 09 09:56 |
| blankthemuffin | Gtk-sharp has a lot of packages, while other bindings have nothing. This causes API Domination controlled mainly by an abusive monopolist, Microsoft. << Oh ok. | Jul 09 09:56 |
| blankthemuffin | I don't see how licensing issues have anything to do with mono. Do you desu? | Jul 09 09:56 |
| desu | they don't. | Jul 09 09:57 |
| desu | but you're missing the larger picture here | Jul 09 09:57 |
| MinceR | they probably have something to do with the apps listed. | Jul 09 09:57 |
| blankthemuffin | then why are they there? | Jul 09 09:57 |
| MinceR | that seems to be the reason they're listed beside the apps | Jul 09 09:57 |
| *desu facepalm.jpg | Jul 09 09:57 | |
| MinceR | presumably to provide more arguments for avoiding those particular apps, besides their dependency on mono | Jul 09 09:57 |
| MinceR | this isn't rocket surgery! | Jul 09 09:57 |
| desu | i give up, please go back to using mono, it'd be better for all of us here... | Jul 09 09:57 |
| blankthemuffin | I'm not going back to using it. I never left. | Jul 09 09:58 |
| desu | so please stay there | Jul 09 09:58 |
| desu | and stop trolling | Jul 09 09:58 |
| MinceR | perhaps nobody talks to him there. | Jul 09 09:58 |
| blankthemuffin | please start making arguments instead of baseless attacks. | Jul 09 09:58 |
| MinceR | after you. | Jul 09 09:59 |
| MinceR | :> | Jul 09 09:59 |
| desu | <blankthemuffin> then why are they there? <-- i think i don't need to say anything after this. | Jul 09 09:59 |
| BobSprite | is that the standard line when you run out of argument, you accuse them of trolling ? it's amusing. its not Brain Science after all :D | Jul 09 09:59 |
| blankthemuffin | Unfortunately this just detracts from the anti-mono arguments. Instead of focusing on things that matter like potential patents being infringed, or binary size, or dependency size, or speed issues, or memory usage, or, or, or. It seems the only 'criticisms' are related to mono being from microsoft, and them being released under a permissive licence. | Jul 09 09:59 |
| desu | it is not about the permissive license. | Jul 09 10:00 |
| desu | butthen again, i doubt you'll get it now, after i've been saying that thing over and over | Jul 09 10:00 |
| trmanco | <Killerbean> beware of the underwater base | Jul 09 10:00 |
| trmanco | <mortiis> your mom's sonar? | Jul 09 10:00 |
| trmanco | <Killerbean> que? | Jul 09 10:00 |
| trmanco | <mortiis> battle ship as she is | Jul 09 10:00 |
| trmanco | <mortiis> :) | Jul 09 10:00 |
| trmanco | <Killerbean> how did you know that? | Jul 09 10:00 |
| trmanco | <Killerbean> :o | Jul 09 10:00 |
| trmanco | <mortiis> google earth | Jul 09 10:00 |
| blankthemuffin | then why is that data there? it's irrelevant. It makes the authors look like cranks. All I see is a list of applications, not how they differ, not why the mono alternatives are worse. | Jul 09 10:01 |
| blankthemuffin | better* | Jul 09 10:01 |
| MinceR | trmanco: lol | Jul 09 10:02 |
| MinceR | blankthemuffin: perhaps we should make a simpler list for dummies like you? :> | Jul 09 10:03 |
| blankthemuffin | No, not at all. I'm not looking for a simpler list. I'm looking for a list with some information. | Jul 09 10:03 |
| Ng | the patent protection of licences mentioned in that page is a bit misleading I think | Jul 09 10:03 |
| MinceR | then you've already found what you're looking for. | Jul 09 10:03 |
| blankthemuffin | No I havn't. Why is Banshee worse than Rythmbox? | Jul 09 10:04 |
| Ng | GPL doesn't inherently guarantee you patent protection unless the copyright holder has done due diligence, and my suspicion is that a lot of open source developers don't have the time or resources for that | Jul 09 10:04 |
| MinceR | i don't use either but i've heard bansee was slower. didn't confirm it though. | Jul 09 10:04 |
| blankthemuffin | the GPL is invalidated by any patent claims if I remember correctly. | Jul 09 10:04 |
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| blankthemuffin | MinceR, then why is this not investigated and put on that page. | Jul 09 10:05 |
| MinceR | dunno | Jul 09 10:05 |
| MinceR | it's probably a work in progress | Jul 09 10:05 |
| MinceR | i haven't edited that wiki yet. | Jul 09 10:05 |
| _Goblin | hi all | Jul 09 10:06 |
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| -BNc/#boycottnovell-[zoobab] FFII France interview about software patents (video and audio) http://bit.ly/rYRYB need to hammer the UPLS message it seems | Jul 09 11:08 | |
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| -BNc/#boycottnovell-[davidgerard] Dell have *literally* put a warranty timer in their batteries: http://bit.ly/iTf4q please forward around | Jul 09 11:43 | |
| -BNc/#boycottnovell-[davidgerard] oh,t hat's from 2004, but it's still happening in 2009. | Jul 09 11:43 | |
| _Goblin | good morning all. | Jul 09 11:52 |
| desu | g'evening, _Goblin | Jul 09 11:53 |
| -BNc/#boycottnovell-[davidgerard] the #4 website in the world has "cunt" prominently on the front page. http://en.wikipedia.org/ | Jul 09 11:58 | |
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| -BNc/#boycottnovell-[_goblin] http://twitpic.com/9rx9l - Wolvix 2.0.0 Beta 2 in action on my rig. A great distro, expect a review shortly. | Jul 09 12:08 | |
| -BNc/#boycottnovell-[davidgerard] Everyone must go to http://www.iwf.org.uk/reporting.htm and report Wikipedia *immediately*. | Jul 09 12:28 | |
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| Ng | how come I haven't seen anyone advocating replacing Mono with Portable.NET? | Jul 09 12:57 |
| oiaohm | Portable .Net is not a 100 percent independant project to Mono. | Jul 09 12:58 |
| oiaohm | They share a few parts Ng. Also Portable .Net if there is patent issues in the classes or standard still would not be free of them. | Jul 09 12:59 |
| oiaohm | Basically we would be happier if the full status was known from MS point of view. | Jul 09 12:59 |
| _Hicham_ | Mr oiaohm : howdy? | Jul 09 13:00 |
| oiaohm | Hi _Hicham_ | Jul 09 13:01 |
| _Hicham_ | oiaohm : what do u think of the last MS promise , | Jul 09 13:01 |
| _Hicham_ | ? | Jul 09 13:01 |
| oiaohm | Basically useless | Jul 09 13:01 |
| oiaohm | Covers the core engine of .net. Does not cover the dll that make up the .net framework. | Jul 09 13:02 |
| oiaohm | It is a step in the right direction. Just not a big enough one. | Jul 09 13:02 |
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| oiaohm | http://www.osnews.com/story/21784/C_CLI_Under_Community_Promise_Mono_Split_in_Half Now mono lead developer is doing the correct thing as well. | Jul 09 13:06 |
| oiaohm | Mono will become two parts. One legal to use one questionable. | Jul 09 13:06 |
| oiaohm | Most likely we will see the same split n Portable .net | Jul 09 13:07 |
| BobSprite | People will use it to "scratch an itch" and to keep up with the IT industry, if your an IT worker you will have a dickens trying to get work without c# and .NET experience | Jul 09 13:11 |
| oiaohm | LOL | Jul 09 13:12 |
| MinceR | funny how this entire .net thing was originally supposed to be portable like java and turned out not to be | Jul 09 13:12 |
| oiaohm | Turns out I got work ahead of people with C# and .NEt experience. | Jul 09 13:12 |
| BobSprite | yes, but not to be nasty and im not putting together PC boxes is the very lowest end of the IT industry. | Jul 09 13:13 |
| oiaohm | Maybe mono will now start going down the path of cross platform with all the class groups that they will hae to avoid. | Jul 09 13:13 |
| oiaohm | Neither am I BobSprite | Jul 09 13:14 |
| MinceR | mono will, but i doubt .net will | Jul 09 13:14 |
| oiaohm | I take care of Linux and Solarias systems. | Jul 09 13:14 |
| MinceR | so the apps that were originally targeted at windows will be locked to it | Jul 09 13:14 |
| oiaohm | I have system to system intergration skills. Those are more important than .net | Jul 09 13:14 |
| Ng | isn't the existence of mono a kind of proof that .net is about as portable as Java? | Jul 09 13:15 |
| MinceR | :) | Jul 09 13:15 |
| BobSprite | all or any sys admin will be fine with windows, linux, unix and probably a number of other OS's and many applications. | Jul 09 13:15 |
| MinceR | Ng: well, afaik linux mono apps don't use Windows.Forms so in the end there's no platform-independent gui -- at least not one that people actually use | Jul 09 13:15 |
| oiaohm | Java is a highly important language to know when dealing with some of the other solutions. | Jul 09 13:16 |
| MinceR | java pulled this part off correctly, too bad their gui toolkits suck | Jul 09 13:16 |
| BobSprite | having C# experience is not necessarily what is needed to build boxes, or do the basic things, or to maintain and sys-admin | Jul 09 13:16 |
| oiaohm | C# experience is useless if the software you are working with is java. | Jul 09 13:16 |
| oiaohm | From orcale. | Jul 09 13:16 |
| MinceR | Ng: i suspect other parts might be similarly affected | Jul 09 13:17 |
| BobSprite | Thats right, the .NET and winforms are simply a set of functions build with and ontop of C#, | Jul 09 13:17 |
| oiaohm | C# is only useful to some people not all. | Jul 09 13:17 |
| MinceR | not simply -- they're what standard libraries would be to most languages | Jul 09 13:17 |
| oiaohm | I fall in the the class were its basically useless. | Jul 09 13:17 |
| oiaohm | Has no place in the kind of work I do. | Jul 09 13:18 |
| BobSprite | oiaohm, you think :) I would never have guessed | Jul 09 13:18 |
| MinceR | (well, those that implement gui toolkits in their standard libraries, such as java) | Jul 09 13:18 |
| oiaohm | Besides for client side with web based able to do more importance of .net for client side interfaces will reduce. | Jul 09 13:18 |
| BobSprite | alot of languages i have no or little use for too, so I dont use them and get on with my life, and if I obsessed over everthing I did not use, thats all I would ever do. | Jul 09 13:18 |
| Ng | MinceR: sure, but that's kinda true in java as well if you use system-specific components | Jul 09 13:19 |
| MinceR | right | Jul 09 13:19 |
| MinceR | but you need to rely on them less there | Jul 09 13:19 |
| BobSprite | I would suggest if you dont like mono but you do like java, that you dont use mono, and you do use java !! solved !! next | Jul 09 13:20 |
| mitsuhiko | i have a good suggestion for all mono haters | Jul 09 13:20 |
| MinceR | i don't like java that much either :> | Jul 09 13:20 |
| oiaohm | I don't like java. | Jul 09 13:20 |
| mitsuhiko | why not switch over to kde? | Jul 09 13:21 |
| mitsuhiko | they don't have any mono applications | Jul 09 13:21 |
| oiaohm | But its just part of the job BobSprite | Jul 09 13:21 |
| mitsuhiko | and stop bashing | Jul 09 13:21 |
| MinceR | that isn't true | Jul 09 13:21 |
| MinceR | there's kerry (or what it's called), for example :> | Jul 09 13:21 |
| MinceR | i used kde until kde4 struck and kde3 was removed from ubuntu | Jul 09 13:21 |
| MinceR | i'm still undecided on what i'm going to use on lenny | Jul 09 13:22 |
| oiaohm | Sad part is performance wise on windows boxes .net can do a little better. Java is way better on Linux and Unix's for performance. | Jul 09 13:22 |
| BobSprite | its a part of your job to complain on #boycottnovell IRC about mono ?? wow | Jul 09 13:22 |
| _Hicham_ | MinceR : use LXDE | Jul 09 13:22 |
| oiaohm | Asp.net can even be slower than PHP at times. | Jul 09 13:22 |
| MinceR | i didn't like lxde that much | Jul 09 13:23 |
| BobSprite | Yes, I dont like pascal either, so I put it out of my mind, and use what I like. | Jul 09 13:23 |
| MinceR | BobSprite: is it a part of your job to troll? | Jul 09 13:23 |
| oiaohm | Main reason .net does not have a place with the work I do. It simply does not perform. | Jul 09 13:23 |
| oiaohm | And has had legal questions about using it on other platforms. | Jul 09 13:23 |
| BobSprite | Then dont use it then, and MinceR do you think questioning and logic is trolling ?? ok thats your call. but i see that troll word used when all arguments fail, ! | Jul 09 13:25 |
| oiaohm | Next problem web space is more expensive on windows servers than Linux and Unix ones. | Jul 09 13:25 |
| MinceR | BobSprite: do you think what you're doing is questioning and logic? | Jul 09 13:25 |
| oiaohm | Lot of companies don't set themselves up right to be cross platform so they can buy from who ever. | Jul 09 13:25 |
| BobSprite | I know its certainly not name calling, | Jul 09 13:26 |
| oiaohm | You pushed the idea people had to know C# simple fact they don't. | Jul 09 13:26 |
| MinceR | BobSprite: i don't think the standard 'ask the same thing over and over and ignore all answers/arguments' routine is anything but trolling. | Jul 09 13:26 |
| mitsuhiko | oiaohm: so is python performance | Jul 09 13:26 |
| oiaohm | The issue is can they get the job done. | Jul 09 13:26 |
| mitsuhiko | that doesn't stop people from using it | Jul 09 13:26 |
| oiaohm | python performance is being worked on. | Jul 09 13:27 |
| oiaohm | Because people using it hate it performance. | Jul 09 13:27 |
| BobSprite | for some jobs a broad knowledge of programming is an advantage, for most jobs you are right and they are now. | Jul 09 13:27 |
| Muttley | just out of interest what is the "better" alternative to f-spot? | Jul 09 13:27 |
| trmanco | solang | Jul 09 13:27 |
| trmanco | :-p | Jul 09 13:27 |
| BobSprite | not* | Jul 09 13:27 |
| mitsuhiko | oiaohm: and python performance will not improve noticable because of some mistakes made in the language | Jul 09 13:27 |
| MinceR | there's also digikam | Jul 09 13:27 |
| MinceR | but i've never used either. | Jul 09 13:27 |
| mitsuhiko | c# has a lot better chances there | Jul 09 13:27 |
| trmanco | g-photo | Jul 09 13:27 |
| oiaohm | mitsuhiko: what mistakes. | Jul 09 13:28 |
| trmanco | g-thumb* | Jul 09 13:28 |
| Muttley | I tried digikam and it was rubbish | Jul 09 13:28 |
| Muttley | haha, g-thumb? | Jul 09 13:28 |
| mitsuhiko | like guaranteeing semantics wise that global names are looked up all the time (eg, volatile) | Jul 09 13:28 |
| MinceR | i prefer gqview | Jul 09 13:29 |
| mitsuhiko | if they would optimize the LOAD_GLOBAL into fastlocal access it would help jits a lot | Jul 09 13:29 |
| MinceR | but it's not a one-to-one replacement to f-spot. | Jul 09 13:29 |
| oiaohm | what version of digikam. | Jul 09 13:29 |
| Muttley | gqview? | Jul 09 13:29 |
| MinceR | it's an image viewer with collection management functionality. | Jul 09 13:30 |
| Muttley | you do know that f-spot is more than an image view | Jul 09 13:30 |
| MinceR | doesn't play animated gifs though. | Jul 09 13:30 |
| MinceR | i do | Jul 09 13:30 |
| MinceR | 144729 < MinceR> but it's not a one-to-one replacement to f-spot. | Jul 09 13:30 |
| MinceR | read this again. | Jul 09 13:30 |
| desu | solang | Jul 09 13:30 |
| oiaohm | digikam has more features than f-spot | Jul 09 13:30 |
| oiaohm | layout is different. | Jul 09 13:30 |
| Muttley | alex@franklyn:~$ apt-cache search solang | Jul 09 13:31 |
| Muttley | alex@franklyn:~$ | Jul 09 13:31 |
| BobSprite | does it have the file versioning that f-spot has ? | Jul 09 13:32 |
| Ng | Muttley: I think solang is quite new | Jul 09 13:32 |
| Muttley | oh, right. so I get to sacrifice 10,000 photos to the god of instability ;) | Jul 09 13:32 |
| oiaohm | I guess you missed installing kipi with digikam Muttley | Jul 09 13:32 |
| Muttley | so not only to I have to install KDE libs to get digikam to work I have it install something called kipi too? | Jul 09 13:33 |
| MinceR | it's your fault you don't have the KDE libs installed already ;) | Jul 09 13:33 |
| *Muttley join's #boycottkubuntu | Jul 09 13:34 | |
| Ng | hehe | Jul 09 13:34 |
| MinceR | i see you're already on #boycottgrammar :> | Jul 09 13:34 |
| Ng | Muttley: afaics f-spot is still the best gnome photo manager | Jul 09 13:34 |
| _Hicham_ | solang is quite powerful, though it is new | Jul 09 13:34 |
| Muttley | MinceR: oh wow | Jul 09 13:35 |
| MinceR | there should be a tool that statically links everything together -- kernel, libs, x, apps -- into a single blob | Jul 09 13:35 |
| MinceR | so that you people could stop complaining about dependencies | Jul 09 13:35 |
| Muttley | highest form of argument there | Jul 09 13:35 |
| MinceR | and shared libraries | Jul 09 13:35 |
| MinceR | :> | Jul 09 13:35 |
| Muttley | attack someone's spelling on irc | Jul 09 13:35 |
| MinceR | Muttley: i'm glad you're impressed. | Jul 09 13:35 |
| *MinceR bows | Jul 09 13:35 | |
| *Muttley joins in | Jul 09 13:35 | |
| Muttley | http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=mincer | Jul 09 13:35 |
| Muttley | that should be about your level | Jul 09 13:36 |
| oiaohm | http://www.kipi-plugins.org/drupal/node/1 << Muttley | Jul 09 13:36 |
| MinceR | wrong direction, Muttley | Jul 09 13:36 |
| oiaohm | There are quite a few features missing if you miss installing kipi. | Jul 09 13:36 |
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| MinceR | but i guess "* Muttley join's #boycottkubuntu" must be some ultra-high form of argument i haven't heard of before. | Jul 09 13:36 |
| Ng | probably a form of humour :) | Jul 09 13:37 |
| Muttley | I think the term is satire | Jul 09 13:37 |
| MinceR | i think it's pathetic | Jul 09 13:37 |
| _Hicham_ | #boycottkubuntu #adoptopensuse #adoptmandriva | Jul 09 13:37 |
| Muttley | MinceR: that means a lot | Jul 09 13:37 |
| Muttley | but then you do have an incredibly gay name ;) | Jul 09 13:38 |
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| MinceR | Muttley: next time read more dictionaries. | Jul 09 13:39 |
| MinceR | Muttley: but now, go die in a fire. | Jul 09 13:39 |
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| Muttley | you amaze me more and more | Jul 09 13:39 |
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| Muttley | finally found a website for solang | Jul 09 13:40 |
| Ng | its savannah page is very empty | Jul 09 13:40 |
| Muttley | yeah | Jul 09 13:41 |
| Muttley | but it's a webpage. I even found a screenshot or two | Jul 09 13:41 |
| Muttley | think I'll pass on that | Jul 09 13:41 |
| Ng | per https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+bug/386653 it's packaged in karmic | Jul 09 13:41 |
| Muttley | my breath is bated | Jul 09 13:42 |
| Ng | I'll give it a go when it can import my tags/whatever from f-spot | Jul 09 13:44 |
| Ng | there's no way I'm re-doing thousands of photos ;) | Jul 09 13:44 |
| MinceR | that's part of why i keep my photos in the filesystem :> | Jul 09 13:46 |
| oiaohm | There are also image viewer/managers like http://gwenview.sourceforge.net/overview That allow you to reach out and use any image editing tool you like. | Jul 09 13:46 |
| MinceR | gqview can invoke any image editing tool too | Jul 09 13:46 |
| Muttley | MinceR: can it export to Gallery and Facebook? | Jul 09 13:47 |
| MinceR | what is Gallery? i don't care about Facebook. | Jul 09 13:47 |
| Muttley | Gallery is a web gallery software | Jul 09 13:47 |
| MinceR | doesn't that have a command-line utility to make a gallery out of a directory? | Jul 09 13:48 |
| MinceR | or something similar? | Jul 09 13:48 |
| Muttley | whut? | Jul 09 13:48 |
| oiaohm | gwenview can Muttley | Jul 09 13:48 |
| oiaohm | Same way digikam does kipi | Jul 09 13:48 |
| Muttley | MinceR: I stopped living in the 90s a while back | Jul 09 13:48 |
| MinceR | good for you | Jul 09 13:49 |
| MinceR | meanwhile, i can access my data with any number of apps | Jul 09 13:49 |
| oiaohm | This is the difference kde developing people are building frameworks to take care of intergration with Facebook and the like. | Jul 09 13:49 |
| Muttley | which is related to exporting photos to gallery is some way I'm sure | Jul 09 13:49 |
| oiaohm | So individual applications don't have to. | Jul 09 13:50 |
| Muttley | s/is/in | Jul 09 13:50 |
| oiaohm | Gnome is really lagging in the framework department for the modern world. | Jul 09 13:50 |
| Muttley | oiaohm: that's why I use Windows 7 | Jul 09 13:50 |
| oiaohm | Even Windows 7 is laging compared to kde 4.3 | Jul 09 13:51 |
| Muttley | now Microsoft know how to make frameworks ;) | Jul 09 13:51 |
| MinceR | ...that suck | Jul 09 13:51 |
| MinceR | there, fixed that for you | Jul 09 13:51 |
| Muttley | a true shining wit you are | Jul 09 13:52 |
| oiaohm | The other thing kde is developing lots of common data stores between applications. | Jul 09 13:52 |
| oiaohm | So you change applications and your data follows. | Jul 09 13:53 |
| -BNc/#boycottnovell-[zoobab] Tweet about swpat with the #swpat tag? | Jul 09 13:53 | |
| -BNc/#boycottnovell-[zoobab] Tweet about software patents using the #swpat tag? | Jul 09 13:53 | |
| Muttley | oiaohm: if you're such a fan of KDE why do you care about mono? | Jul 09 13:53 |
| Muttley | surely mono helps KDE | Jul 09 13:53 |
| MinceR | Muttley: in ##windows, you don't have to suffer my shining wit. | Jul 09 13:54 |
| oiaohm | Mono is usless in the kde world. | Jul 09 13:55 |
| Ng | MinceR: I keep my photos in the filesystem too, f-spot keeps them in date directories, it's the non-exif metadata I don't want to lose :) | Jul 09 13:56 |
| oiaohm | Mono has major intergration problems with anything not windows. | Jul 09 13:56 |
| MinceR | Ng: i see | Jul 09 13:56 |
| MinceR | Ng: i wonder if that could be kept in extended attributes or something. | Jul 09 13:56 |
| BobSprite | in other words F-Spot has features not available on any other foss app | Jul 09 13:56 |
| Ng | MinceR: potentially, but I'm very wary of those because so few core unix tools understand them | Jul 09 13:57 |
| Ng | (tar your photos, cp them, rsync them and it's a crapshoot if the xattrs/acls will still be there at the other end) | Jul 09 13:57 |
| Muttley | oiaohm: that is my point | Jul 09 13:57 |
| MinceR | i'd be too, but i consider them less of a hack than keeping an app-specific database of those files. | Jul 09 13:57 |
| Muttley | you are clearly a KDE fan, so why bother hating mono? | Jul 09 13:57 |
| Muttley | surely there are better things to use that energy on | Jul 09 13:57 |
| BobSprite | gotta hate something !! | Jul 09 13:58 |
| MinceR | Muttley: apparently you couldn't find anything better to use your energy on | Jul 09 13:58 |
| oiaohm | Because I want competition. | Jul 09 13:58 |
| MinceR | Muttley: so i don't see what entitles you to complain about what oiaohm uses his energy on. | Jul 09 13:58 |
| oiaohm | Mono poor intergration is taking developers of Gnome away from building core parts. | Jul 09 13:58 |
| Muttley | MinceR: eh? | Jul 09 13:58 |
| tacone | Mono tried on kde too | Jul 09 13:58 |
| Muttley | I'm not complaining | Jul 09 13:58 |
| Muttley | I'm asking | Jul 09 13:58 |
| oiaohm | So weaking Gnomes means to compete with KDE so reducing the pressure on KDE to improve. | Jul 09 13:59 |
| Muttley | and what do you know about what I waste my energy on | Jul 09 13:59 |
| BobSprite | probably about the same as you commenting on someone else MinccR | Jul 09 13:59 |
| Muttley | currently I'm being paid to talk shit in here | Jul 09 13:59 |
| MinceR | Muttley: you're harassing people because they don't share your fanaticism for mono | Jul 09 13:59 |
| MinceR | BobSprite does the same | Jul 09 13:59 |
| Muttley | huh? | Jul 09 13:59 |
| oiaohm | Basically I want Gnome to be healthy. | Jul 09 13:59 |
| Muttley | how is that harassing? | Jul 09 13:59 |
| MinceR | BobSprite: i didn't come here to troll the people present, you did. | Jul 09 13:59 |
| Muttley | oiaohm: fair enough | Jul 09 13:59 |
| Muttley | jeez, I was just interested | Jul 09 14:00 |
| MinceR | yes, "interested" | Jul 09 14:00 |
| MinceR | that's what you trolls always say | Jul 09 14:00 |
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| BobSprite | yes, I did notice I was doing the same is you :) | Jul 09 14:00 |
| Ng | oiaohm: my view of gnome is that they spend almost all of their time building core platforms and not enough time making applications :) | Jul 09 14:00 |
| MinceR | "i just asked [99 times and ignored the answer every time]" | Jul 09 14:00 |
| oiaohm | The art is doing both Ng | Jul 09 14:00 |
| Muttley | my view of gnome is they don't stop dicking around with the shit that works and it pisses me off | Jul 09 14:01 |
| BobSprite | ahh the "trolls" again, and being interested and asking for clarification is part of a balanced debate. | Jul 09 14:01 |
| oiaohm | KDE developers building applications also work on core back end stuff. | Jul 09 14:01 |
| Ng | Muttley: don't try gnome-shell, you'll hate it ;) | Jul 09 14:01 |
| oiaohm | Gnome has that split. | Jul 09 14:01 |
| MinceR | my view of gnome is that they worry too much about confusing users with functionality they don't need | Jul 09 14:01 |
| oiaohm | Ie application and back end developers being independant. | Jul 09 14:01 |
| Muttley | "oh this feature works, well best we change it to some other random thing and we'll just release it in the next version with no documentation" | Jul 09 14:01 |
| Muttley | cocks | Jul 09 14:01 |
| oiaohm | its is not healthy. | Jul 09 14:01 |
| Ng | Muttley: it's still better than KDE :) | Jul 09 14:01 |
| Muttley | Ng: tru dat | Jul 09 14:01 |
| MinceR | as for kde, they should have told package maintainers more clearly that kde4 is not a stable release | Jul 09 14:02 |
| Muttley | MinceR: yeah, surely the hint was in the version numbering. stupid maintainers ;) | Jul 09 14:02 |
| oiaohm | There was confusion between KDE marketing team and the developers. | Jul 09 14:02 |
| oiaohm | Boy did that cause a mess. | Jul 09 14:02 |
| BobSprite | everyone knows all version 4 of software sucks | Jul 09 14:03 |
| oiaohm | As of 4.3 99 percent of the features of 3.5 are back BobSprite. | Jul 09 14:03 |
| oiaohm | Plus more. | Jul 09 14:03 |
| Muttley | BobSprite: Star Trek 4 | Jul 09 14:04 |
| oiaohm | Yes 4.0 and 4.1 kinda did sux. 4.2 stablity was a issue. 4.3 focus is now moving to stablity as most of the features are there. | Jul 09 14:04 |
| BobSprite | features and performance are not the same thing, | Jul 09 14:04 |
| Muttley | Rocky 4 | Jul 09 14:04 |
| oiaohm | Ie adding lot of features under mines stablity at times BobSprite | Jul 09 14:05 |
| Muttley | it applies everywhere | Jul 09 14:05 |
| Muttley | beware the 4 | Jul 09 14:05 |
| oiaohm | Funny enough the 4.4 KDE could be great. | Jul 09 14:05 |
| Muttley | in chinese the word is linked to death | Jul 09 14:05 |
| Muttley | it's clearly no coincidence | Jul 09 14:05 |
| BobSprite | win95 (windows 4) NT4, netware4, | Jul 09 14:05 |
| MinceR | i haven't seen 4.3 yet | Jul 09 14:06 |
| MinceR | i think | Jul 09 14:06 |
| oiaohm | I have development branch. | Jul 09 14:06 |
| MinceR | of course, the worst version 4 i've ever seen was of D&D. :> | Jul 09 14:06 |
| oiaohm | Had it before 4.0 release as well. Kinda knew the kde 4.0 marketing guys are stuffed up. | Jul 09 14:06 |
| BobSprite | it was a re-write from scratch, so you can expect some issues, but its something that needs to be done from time to time. | Jul 09 14:08 |
| oiaohm | World is in tollerent. Its not like KDE developers were pushing people to upgrade to KDE 4.0 and KDE 4.1. Lot of distrobutions just wanted to be first all the time. | Jul 09 14:11 |
| oiaohm | And did not take the effect on there end users into account. | Jul 09 14:11 |
| MinceR | i understand that it was a rewrite from scratch | Jul 09 14:11 |
| MinceR | it just couldn't replace kde3.5 | Jul 09 14:11 |
| oiaohm | KDE 4 will replace kde 3.5 in time. | Jul 09 14:11 |
| MinceR | i don't mind having kde3 and kde4 installed side-by-side | Jul 09 14:11 |
| MinceR | but for example the ubuntu maintainers apparently do | Jul 09 14:12 |
| oiaohm | Internal issues of the QT in kde 3.5 means its a dead end. | Jul 09 14:12 |
| MinceR | (sure, it could be hacked up but i was hoping i didn't need to) | Jul 09 14:12 |
| -BNc/#boycottnovell-[zoobab] The patent system is a religion, do you believe in it, the Pope does not seem to believe in it: http://bit.ly/gVnAq | Jul 09 14:13 | |
| oiaohm | The problem people people expected KDE 4.0 to feature match 3.5 straight out box. | Jul 09 14:13 |
| oiaohm | Turned on all features including the compisiting ones know to cause particular video card to die badly. | Jul 09 14:13 |
| oiaohm | So they were screwed. | Jul 09 14:13 |
| BobSprite | the very same pope that was a member of the nazi youth party ? | Jul 09 14:15 |
| MinceR | what's your point? | Jul 09 14:16 |
| BobSprite | the pope does not believe in condoms either, i dont see what it has to do with anything either | Jul 09 14:16 |
| oiaohm | Lot of people go around saying kde 4 is dead sorry its just the start of something new. | Jul 09 14:16 |
| Muttley | BobSprite: along with every other boy over the age of 14 | Jul 09 14:16 |
| MinceR | i don't think it matters, it's just funny, imo | Jul 09 14:17 |
| MinceR | (also, it only appears in the context of medicine patents) | Jul 09 14:17 |
| *sdgdf789 (i=5496fd62@gateway/web/freenode/session) has joined #boycottnovell | Jul 09 14:19 | |
| sdgdf789 | Hi. The website appears to be fown for me. You already know this? | Jul 09 14:21 |
| sdgdf789 | s/fown/down/ | Jul 09 14:21 |
| BobSprite | yes, its down for me too, | Jul 09 14:23 |
| MinceR | seems to be down for me too | Jul 09 14:23 |
| BobSprite | must be windows !! | Jul 09 14:24 |
| Muttley | ahh, it might be my fault | Jul 09 14:24 |
| Muttley | I loaded f-spot | Jul 09 14:24 |
| BobSprite | I told them not to write BN in C# and use asp.net | Jul 09 14:25 |
| oiaohm | LOL | Jul 09 14:26 |
| oiaohm | BN is PHP. | Jul 09 14:26 |
| *mitsuhiko (n=mitsuhik@ubuntu/member/mitsuhiko) has left #boycottnovell ("Verlassend") | Jul 09 14:26 | |
| oiaohm | Its more who crashed the server. | Jul 09 14:26 |
| BobSprite | I wonder if it will help if i sent thousands of refreshes and pings to it ? | Jul 09 14:26 |
| MinceR | only if you use a botnet to do so. | Jul 09 14:27 |
| MinceR | built in windows technology, of course. | Jul 09 14:27 |
| oiaohm | Knowledge base intergration in kde 4.4 should be interesting. | Jul 09 14:27 |
| MinceR | s/in/on/ | Jul 09 14:28 |
| oiaohm | First time any of the open source desktops have steped away from the forum/mailing list model. | Jul 09 14:28 |
| BobSprite | so you people spend that much time on the desktop that it actually matters, ??? | Jul 09 14:30 |
| BobSprite | I tend to use applications myself | Jul 09 14:30 |
| Muttley | http://blogs.zdnet.com/Howlett/?p=1065 | Jul 09 14:31 |
| oiaohm | KDE desktop includes lots of applications BobSprite. | Jul 09 14:31 |
| oiaohm | Including games. | Jul 09 14:31 |
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| Muttley | ahh, linux and games. two words when used in a sentence together than are always guaranteed to get people rolling in the aisles ;) | Jul 09 14:32 |
| Muttley | s/than/that | Jul 09 14:32 |
| Muttley | damn spelling is all over today | Jul 09 14:32 |
| MinceR | 1995 called. they want their news back. | Jul 09 14:33 |
| BobSprite | yes and its the applications that you use, like everyone else, sure there are apps WITH your os, but not a part of it, we all use apps, I dont just "use" the desktop, my apps do. | Jul 09 14:33 |
| BobSprite | im OS agnostic, as much as possible, its not that I dont know, it's that I dont care. | Jul 09 14:33 |
| BobSprite | even in 2009 linux games are in teh dark ages, | Jul 09 14:34 |
| Muttley | there is always cedega :) | Jul 09 14:35 |
| MinceR | which ones are in the dark ages? | Jul 09 14:35 |
| BobSprite | MinceR exactly | Jul 09 14:35 |
| MinceR | exactly what? | Jul 09 14:35 |
| BobSprite | think about it, you'll work it out. :) (mabey). | Jul 09 14:36 |
| MinceR | do you mean "not many have been ported" by saying "they're in the dark ages"? because i can't follow that metaphor. | Jul 09 14:36 |
| MinceR | then again, that isn't true either... | Jul 09 14:36 |
| MinceR | more like "there are many games that haven't been ported or developed for gnu/linux" | Jul 09 14:36 |
| oiaohm | With a knowlegde base frame work in kde all the applications above it can use that for there help system if they wish BobSprite | Jul 09 14:37 |
| -BNc/#boycottnovell-[davidgerard] NotN: World’s #4 website features “cunt” on front page http://is.gd/1sgyc | Jul 09 14:38 | |
| oiaohm | It means online help requests can be intergrate into the applications. No switching to browser and back again coping instructions. | Jul 09 14:38 |
| Muttley | damn that bot is annoying | Jul 09 14:38 |
| BobSprite | so its an emulation of the chm file format, or an equivalent, thats good. but again thats the job of a modern OS to provide certain functionalities, | Jul 09 14:39 |
| oiaohm | Nop | Jul 09 14:39 |
| oiaohm | chm format is static. | Jul 09 14:39 |
| MinceR | Muttley: by leaving this channel, you'll be protected from all the notices of that bot. | Jul 09 14:39 |
| BobSprite | thats far from new | Jul 09 14:39 |
| Muttley | MinceR: but I'd also miss out on all your wisdom | Jul 09 14:40 |
| MinceR | i see your predicament. decisions, decisions... | Jul 09 14:40 |
| oiaohm | Online placing of requests to a knowleadge base getting a answer from other uses in the knowledge base? Exactly what applications do that BobSprite. | Jul 09 14:40 |
| oiaohm | Basically designed to lession users need to go googling for answers. | Jul 09 14:41 |
| BobSprite | yes i know, its routine and trivial, and its been done before over and over, move along nothing new to see here | Jul 09 14:41 |
| oiaohm | As part of the application. | Jul 09 14:42 |
| BobSprite | yes, its been done and have been for years, | Jul 09 14:43 |
| -BNc/#boycottnovell-[davidgerard] new lovelace & babbage cartoon on the bbc! http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/technology/8139075.stm | Jul 09 14:43 | |
| oiaohm | As a common framework. | Jul 09 14:43 |
| oiaohm | Lot of things have been done for years. But have not be standardised. So have been a mix match of incompadible systems. | Jul 09 14:45 |
| *oiaohm has quit (Remote closed the connection) | Jul 09 14:45 | |
| paid or not, you sure all full of it -> Muttley: currently I'm being paid to talk shit in here | Jul 09 14:46 | |
| Muttley | are the backlogs really that interesting? | Jul 09 14:47 |
| not the ones that are filled with shit. | Jul 09 14:48 | |
| Muttley | so bit of a waste of time being here then | Jul 09 14:49 |
| not really, I can ignore people like you. The problem is that you keep coming back with different names. | Jul 09 14:51 | |
| ** twitter ignores Muttley | Jul 09 14:51 | |
| Muttley | right | Jul 09 14:51 |
| Muttley | so you spoke to me just to tell me you wanted to ignore me | Jul 09 14:52 |
| Muttley | that;s astounding | Jul 09 14:52 |
| BobSprite | now you dont know what he's saying about you :D | Jul 09 14:52 |
| :) | Jul 09 14:52 | |
| Muttley | yeah, now he wont know when I'm ignoring him! | Jul 09 14:52 |
| BobSprite | sure is :D | Jul 09 14:52 |
| BobSprite | wow Muttley thats the most amazing thing ive ever heard here bar none. !!! | Jul 09 14:53 |
| ** twitter ignores BobSprite, again. | Jul 09 14:53 | |
| BobSprite | lol | Jul 09 14:53 |
| Ng | twitter: please stop spamming the channel with your ignore notices | Jul 09 14:54 |
| Muttley | ng: dude, careful. you'll be next | Jul 09 14:54 |
| BobSprite | yes, why come here and ignore everyone, ?? must hate to hear anything she does not believe. | Jul 09 14:55 |
| Eruaran | Stupid comment of the week: "I believe people should give up their liberty for freedom" (a British woman interviewed on Alex Jones' 'Terrorstorm'). | Jul 09 14:55 |
| BobSprite | thats what you get from listening to Alex Jones!! | Jul 09 14:56 |
| Muttley | stupid comments and alex jones. now there's a combination | Jul 09 14:56 |
| BobSprite | yay me, i got ignored twice :) cool | Jul 09 14:57 |
| I think digikam uses exif data, has a database and also exports to web galleries. BobSprite: in other words F-Spot has features not available on any other foss app | Jul 09 14:57 | |
| BobSprite | if you could hear me twitter, thats just what I was saying !!!. | Jul 09 14:58 |
| *** twitter ignores Ng again | Jul 09 14:58 | |
| Ng | ! | Jul 09 14:59 |
| Muttley | shit dude | Jul 09 14:59 |
| BobSprite | sensitive flower arn't you twitter. | Jul 09 14:59 |
| Ng | if you're going to ignore people, that's fine, but there's no need to be so petty about it as to announce it | Jul 09 14:59 |
| MinceR | Eruaran: lol | Jul 09 14:59 |
| Muttley | you got a 3 star prefix | Jul 09 14:59 |
| *dlmarti has quit (Remote closed the connection) | Jul 09 15:00 | |
| Ng | Muttley: that tells me he/she's probably not actually ignoring people (people who say they /ignore never actually do), it's just a manual pretending ;) | Jul 09 15:00 |
| I prefer to organize my photo collection the way MinceR does. What matters is sharing them via html myself. | Jul 09 15:00 | |
| BobSprite | ahh a ruse !!! OK | Jul 09 15:00 |
| MinceR | it can be useful to notify the ignored person that they shouldn't expect replies from you... | Jul 09 15:00 |
| MinceR | you raff you ruse. | Jul 09 15:00 |
| Muttley | MinceR: no it's just a rather lame way of saying "I want to have the last word" | Jul 09 15:01 |
| BobSprite | or you can just be adult enough to see there are differing arguments and opinions, and balanced dicussion on those subjects is actually healthy | Jul 09 15:01 |
| Having a database to help people looking at your pictures via html might be nice, but I'd like to leave the direct option open to them. | Jul 09 15:02 | |
| MinceR | not necessarily as lame as the usual say+part method :) | Jul 09 15:02 |
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| in the mean time, i use the ancient igal program to make html galleries and slide shows. | Jul 09 15:02 | |
| Muttley | some people like to use more recent web gallery software | Jul 09 15:03 |
| Muttley | I enjoy f-spot because it helps to export to them very quickly | Jul 09 15:03 |
| if, one day, I find a database that works with apache that I really like better than igal, igal has a make clean option to erase all of it's files. | Jul 09 15:03 | |
| that would be easy to script, but I like having all of the thumbnails pre generated | Jul 09 15:04 | |
| BobSprite | im surprised that in 2009 Linux is still struggling with a decent picture manager ! | Jul 09 15:04 |
| Muttley | just use hackintosh and aperture :) | Jul 09 15:04 |
| MinceR | linux isn't. you are. | Jul 09 15:05 |
| Muttley | don't forget picassa | Jul 09 15:05 |
| MinceR | lol picasa | Jul 09 15:06 |
| BobSprite | me? strugging ? Ive got thousands of photo's too, but I dont have a problem managing them, | Jul 09 15:06 |
| MinceR | who said he had a problem managing their photos? | Jul 09 15:06 |
| BobSprite | everyone trying to work out what photo manager to use, here | Jul 09 15:07 |
| Muttley | I know what photo manager to use | Jul 09 15:08 |
| Muttley | but I don't want a Mac | Jul 09 15:08 |
| BobSprite | neither do I, | Jul 09 15:08 |
| BobSprite | who wants a re-badged INTEL box and a re-badged OS for a premium cost :) | Jul 09 15:09 |
| Muttley | I also don't really like KDE and last time I tried digikam (admittedly a year or so back) it really wasn't very good | Jul 09 15:09 |
| Muttley | so I used f-spot at the moment | Jul 09 15:09 |
| MinceR | oh noes, there are multiple apps to choose from for a particular purpose! | Jul 09 15:09 |
| MinceR | the sky is falling! | Jul 09 15:09 |
| MinceR | i'm starting to see what kind of idiots crApple products were designed for | Jul 09 15:10 |
| Muttley | which is pretty nice but still doesn't have some of the features you get in more professional packages on windows/mac | Jul 09 15:10 |
| Muttley | oooo, crApple. that's genius. | Jul 09 15:11 |
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| -BNc/#boycottnovell-[davidgerard] #mocknblock @Sporkingsdotcom finest random crap sold by a #spam mer. BLOCK. | Jul 09 15:48 | |
| BobSprite | BN is still down too | Jul 09 15:49 |
| *desu has quit ("Leaving") | Jul 09 15:50 | |
| *Muttley grabs another beer | Jul 09 16:11 | |
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| BobSprite | http://blogs.zdnet.com/SAAS/?p=80 | Jul 09 16:21 |
| BobSprite | http://blogs.zdnet.com/SAAS/?p=807 | Jul 09 16:21 |
| BobSprite | sorry, but interesting article | Jul 09 16:21 |
| BobSprite | Free is not a business model | Jul 09 16:22 |
| *maxstirner (n=user@87.78.141.233) has joined #boycottnovell | Jul 09 16:26 | |
| maxstirner | BN is down? what is the world coming to | Jul 09 16:26 |
| BobSprite | been down for awile now, | Jul 09 16:27 |
| BobSprite | they switched it over to a windows server, never been the same since. | Jul 09 16:27 |
| maxstirner | boycott novell? shouldnt think so | Jul 09 16:28 |
| BobSprite | honest, roy got a sweet kickback from MS and a new laptop :D | Jul 09 16:28 |
| maxstirner | that IS funny | Jul 09 16:28 |
| maxstirner | where is he at anyhow | Jul 09 16:28 |
| BobSprite | I thought he would be back by now too, | Jul 09 16:29 |
| Muttley | maybe he tried banshee and realised how sweet it is :) | Jul 09 16:30 |
| *tessier is getting the site back up | Jul 09 16:32 | |
| tessier | I don't see what's wrong with it. Strange. | Jul 09 16:32 |
| Muttley | did you forget to pay microsoft for a licence to use a kernel with fat32 in it? :) | Jul 09 16:34 |
| BobSprite | mabey its just re-booting for the past 3 hours | Jul 09 16:35 |
| tessier | I think maybe we temporarily IP collided it yesterday when setting up a new machine. But I don't see why that didn't cause a problem yesterday instead of at 4am this morning. | Jul 09 16:35 |
| tessier | The machine that might have had its IP has been down for hours. Weird. | Jul 09 16:36 |
| tessier | It's up and can ping the gateway when I console into it | Jul 09 16:36 |
| maxstirner | got withdrawal symptoms already :D | Jul 09 16:37 |
| BobSprite | so its not reset in teh DNS yet | Jul 09 16:39 |
| tessier | Ah. I know exactly what happened. Bah. We're still getting some things in place network-wise. | Jul 09 16:43 |
| BobSprite | its back | Jul 09 16:43 |
| BobSprite | well done :) | Jul 09 16:43 |
| maxstirner | at last! | Jul 09 16:44 |
| maxstirner | plus new material | Jul 09 16:44 |
| maxstirner | :D | Jul 09 16:44 |
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| neighborlee | I think this eet person is heading down illlegal paths...he's actuallly getting violent. | Jul 09 17:08 |
| neighborlee | I hope those that support his views will start to distance themselves and do so very publicly | Jul 09 17:08 |
| *desu (n=desu@unaffiliated/desu) has joined #boycottnovell | Jul 09 17:18 | |
| BobSprite | who ? | Jul 09 17:20 |
| Muttley | some guy who seems to have got a little worked up | Jul 09 17:23 |
| neighborlee | eet | Jul 09 17:27 |
| *desudesudesu (n=desu@unaffiliated/desu) has joined #boycottnovell | Jul 09 17:28 | |
| neighborlee | http://boycottnovell.com/2009/07/09/community-promise-sham/#comments | Jul 09 17:28 |
| neighborlee | first comment | Jul 09 17:28 |
| neighborlee | every single mono supporter should be reigning him in | Jul 09 17:28 |
| *desu has quit (Nick collision from services.) | Jul 09 17:28 | |
| *desudesudesu is now known as desu | Jul 09 17:28 | |
| Muttley | neighborlee: why? if people think that he represents all mono supporters that's their dumb luck | Jul 09 17:30 |
| neighborlee | you dont get it | Jul 09 17:30 |
| neighborlee | try again | Jul 09 17:30 |
| Muttley | what? | Jul 09 17:30 |
| Muttley | is he some head of the pro-mono squad or something? | Jul 09 17:30 |
| neighborlee | that is pathetic of you | Jul 09 17:31 |
| Muttley | I'm sorry but I'm not responsible for what other people say | Jul 09 17:31 |
| neighborlee | oh really | Jul 09 17:31 |
| neighborlee | lets check history on that one | Jul 09 17:31 |
| Muttley | uh> | Jul 09 17:32 |
| Muttley | ? | Jul 09 17:32 |
| neighborlee | ? | Jul 09 17:32 |
| Muttley | I'm sorry but why should other people apologise for him, surely he's best just ignored | Jul 09 17:32 |
| Muttley | if anything you should have a go at who ever replied to him for feeding the troll | Jul 09 17:32 |
| Muttley | if I spent time dressing down everyone who ever posted a stupid comment on the internet who might have mildly similar views to me on a particular subject I'd never get anything done | Jul 09 17:34 |
| Muttley | ignore the guy, move on | Jul 09 17:34 |
| neighborlee | tell that to the jewish people about hitler..extreme example but I think you get the idea | Jul 09 17:36 |
| Muttley | wtf? | Jul 09 17:36 |
| neighborlee | but anyway , yes time to move on | Jul 09 17:36 |
| Muttley | seriosuly you didn';t just say that did you? | Jul 09 17:36 |
| neighborlee | no this is all a dream of yours.. | Jul 09 17:36 |
| Muttley | comparing a tard on the internet to the holocaust | Jul 09 17:36 |
| Muttley | wow | Jul 09 17:36 |
| Muttley | I'm amazed | Jul 09 17:37 |
| neighborlee | you should be.. | Jul 09 17:37 |
| Muttley | seriosuly | Jul 09 17:37 |
| neighborlee | your illl attempt at fainting to convey sympathy is amusing, but unconvincing | Jul 09 17:37 |
| Muttley | you obviously take things way to seriously if you can even think of comparing what some idiot says on the internet to the murder of millions of people | Jul 09 17:37 |
| desu | i see Muttley still hasn't given up | Jul 09 17:37 |
| neighborlee | :) | Jul 09 17:38 |
| Muttley | desu: don't worry I've almost been stunned to silence by that | Jul 09 17:38 |
| *dlmarti has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)) | Jul 09 17:38 | |
| desu | don't be, please continue trolling. | Jul 09 17:38 |
| Muttley | trolling? | Jul 09 17:38 |
| _Hicham_ | hi neighborlee | Jul 09 17:38 |
| neighborlee | Muttley, its the pattern im referring to..if you cant see that, they your eyes have a huge log in them | Jul 09 17:38 |
| neighborlee | _Hicham_, hi there | Jul 09 17:38 |
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| Muttley | neighborlee: the patern? sorry | Jul 09 17:39 |
| _Hicham_ | neighborlee : interested in testing solang ? | Jul 09 17:39 |
| Muttley | I'm confused | Jul 09 17:39 |
| neighborlee | of course you are | Jul 09 17:39 |
| Muttley | are you saying give this guy a few years and he'll be gassing free software advocates? | Jul 09 17:39 |
| neighborlee | _Hicham_, I cant atm.im in windows | Jul 09 17:39 |
| neighborlee | :( | Jul 09 17:40 |
| _Hicham_ | neighborlee : ok | Jul 09 17:40 |
| neighborlee | sorry | Jul 09 17:40 |
| neighborlee | be happy to later today..soon I must go to clients home | Jul 09 17:40 |
| _Hicham_ | neighborlee : anyway, it is in my repo | Jul 09 17:40 |
| neighborlee | k | Jul 09 17:40 |
| neighborlee | Muttley, he already has, you just seem happy to let him continue. | Jul 09 17:41 |
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| Muttley | neighborlee: I'm sorry, are you high? | Jul 09 17:42 |
| neighborlee | I dont do drugs | Jul 09 17:42 |
| neighborlee | of anykind | Jul 09 17:42 |
| Muttley | perhaps you should start | Jul 09 17:42 |
| neighborlee | Muttley, now you sound like eet | Jul 09 17:43 |
| Muttley | seriously, the guy is just a tard who said something really stupid on a blog | Jul 09 17:43 |
| neighborlee | Muttley, no he's not a tard | Jul 09 17:43 |
| neighborlee | Muttley, he's YOU | Jul 09 17:43 |
| Muttley | oh righty then | Jul 09 17:43 |
| neighborlee | :) | Jul 09 17:43 |
| Muttley | I guess you're not meaning that literally but in a "you wont denounce him so you support him way" | Jul 09 17:44 |
| Muttley | but still that's pretty far fetched | Jul 09 17:44 |
| Muttley | though maybe you do mean it literally so should I be flattered that you don't think I'm a tard? | Jul 09 17:45 |
| *neighborlee is out of peanuts | Jul 09 17:45 | |
| Muttley | I'm sure there is a joke in there about nutbars | Jul 09 17:46 |
| desu | i wonder why those who support microsoft, novell and mono still hang in here... | Jul 09 17:46 |
| Muttley | then the only noise in here would be the bot repeating crap every 5 minutes | Jul 09 17:48 |
| desu | which is much more tolerable than your crap. | Jul 09 17:49 |
| Muttley | to be honest I only tend to speak in response to someone else | Jul 09 17:50 |
| Muttley | if you want your one sided circle jerk then make the channel invite only and only let in who agrees with you | Jul 09 17:50 |
| desu | which you shouldn't have been able to read since you shouldn't have been here. | Jul 09 17:50 |
| Muttley | I "shouldn't" have been here? | Jul 09 17:51 |
| desu | compare it to the gay guy in anti-gay chatrooms, who's still trying to advocate gay-ness... | Jul 09 17:51 |
| Muttley | well we have a MinceR already | Jul 09 17:51 |
| Muttley | but so what? | Jul 09 17:52 |
| Muttley | why shouldn't that gay guy be there? | Jul 09 17:52 |
| MinceR | Muttley: stop projecting, faggot | Jul 09 17:53 |
| Muttley | hey, I can't help it if you have a name that is just very funny to british people ;) | Jul 09 17:54 |
| MinceR | look at your own name first | Jul 09 17:54 |
| Muttley | it's a cartoon dog | Jul 09 17:54 |
| Muttley | unless there is some american euphemism I'm not aware of | Jul 09 17:55 |
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| neighborlee | MinceR, please tell me, you didn't just say that | Jul 09 17:56 |
| Ng | all people should publically condemn that | Jul 09 17:56 |
| Muttley | yeah | Jul 09 17:56 |
| Muttley | all people of the world | Jul 09 17:56 |
| Muttley | NOW | Jul 09 17:57 |
| Muttley | ;) | Jul 09 17:57 |
| neighborlee | Muttley, be my guest | Jul 09 17:57 |
| Muttley | but hey, it's the internet | Jul 09 17:57 |
| MinceR | neighborlee: go hug him then. | Jul 09 17:57 |
| Muttley | the veil of anonymity means people say stupid stuff | Jul 09 17:57 |
| *neighborlee hugs Muttley q | Jul 09 17:57 | |
| Muttley | aww | Jul 09 17:57 |
| neighborlee | there you go mince | Jul 09 17:57 |
| *Muttley hugs back | Jul 09 17:57 | |
| neighborlee | LOL | Jul 09 17:57 |
| MinceR | Muttley: and you seem to be the prime example of that | Jul 09 17:58 |
| -BNc/#boycottnovell-[davidgerard] Foxnews to host: ixnay on the azi-nay! http://bit.ly/ph6rm | Jul 09 17:58 | |
| neighborlee | Muttley, your turn | Jul 09 17:58 |
| Muttley | I hugged last! | Jul 09 17:58 |
| neighborlee | im talking about eet | Jul 09 17:58 |
| Ng | I condemn eet | Jul 09 17:58 |
| Ng | who's eet and what did they do? | Jul 09 17:58 |
| Muttley | ok, eet is an idiot | Jul 09 17:58 |
| neighborlee | not here, but thats something at least | Jul 09 17:59 |
| Muttley | I'm pretty sure I said that a few times already | Jul 09 17:59 |
| BobSprite | im sure Muttley is not eet, so what he's saying (muttley) is that eet is one person who is entited to say what he likes, and its got nothing to do with muttley | Jul 09 17:59 |
| neighborlee | Ng, http://boycottnovell.com/2009/07/09/community-promise-sham/#comments < first person to commment there | Jul 09 17:59 |
| neighborlee | BobSprite, thats a purely one dimensional way of looking at it..but sure ok. | Jul 09 18:00 |
| BobSprite | some mentioned the jews, are you saying everyone who is austrian or german kills jews ?? ofcourse not. that would be stupid | Jul 09 18:00 |
| neighborlee | do you really think thats what I'm saying :) | Jul 09 18:01 |
| Muttley | well you compared what eet said to the murder of millions of people | Jul 09 18:01 |
| BobSprite | your implying guilt by association so yes I guess I am | Jul 09 18:01 |
| Muttley | that's taking things a little too seriously | Jul 09 18:01 |
| Ng | neighborlee: a pretty stupid comment to be sure, although I think the article above is pretty mental too | Jul 09 18:01 |
| BobSprite | you grouped "mono supporters" in one basket, I did not | Jul 09 18:02 |
| Ng | and Roy really does himself no favours with his writing style :/ | Jul 09 18:03 |
| -BNc/#boycottnovell-[davidgerard] #mocknblock @ClaraKeck ten "giggle" tweets and two spam links. gosh, I won't spot that that's #spam . | Jul 09 18:03 | |
| Muttley | ng: it's pretty dire | Jul 09 18:03 |
| Muttley | it's like the guys on housepricecrash.co.uk | Jul 09 18:03 |
| Ng | "pro-MONOpolists" - that's just crass | Jul 09 18:03 |
| Muttley | ahh, but catchy! | Jul 09 18:03 |
| Muttley | all the cool kids will be using it | Jul 09 18:03 |
| Ng | it would be much easier to take his concerns seriously if his bias wasn't dripping off the screen | Jul 09 18:04 |
| MinceR | you wouldn't anyway | Jul 09 18:04 |
| MinceR | so why complain? | Jul 09 18:04 |
| BobSprite | and your not biased ? | Jul 09 18:04 |
| Ng | I'm not complaining, I'm criticising | Jul 09 18:05 |
| MinceR | and what about you, BobSprite? | Jul 09 18:05 |
| neighborlee | Ng, ok well I can meet you half way on that one in some measure..how about the rest of you can you at least see the danger in eet's comment,...or are you also blinded by your rage of all things mono hating ? | Jul 09 18:05 |
| Muttley | neighborlee: what danger? | Jul 09 18:06 |
| neighborlee | see thats why we are on this planet..so somehow..eventualy work TOGETHER | Jul 09 18:06 |
| Muttley | seriosuly | Jul 09 18:06 |
| Muttley | you think he's going to kill someone? | Jul 09 18:06 |
| MinceR | as long as the human nature is what it is, we never will | Jul 09 18:06 |
| Muttley | he's probably some spotty 14 year old kid who drank too much coca cola | Jul 09 18:06 |
| BobSprite | im impartial, and just try to deal in facts where possible and to aviod FUD, and as for my OS preference I dont really have one, as I said I dont use my OS, I have apps that use it. | Jul 09 18:06 |
| Ng | neighborlee: I have no rage in this at all :) | Jul 09 18:06 |
| MinceR | judging by that comment, eet is a douche. | Jul 09 18:07 |
| neighborlee | I wasnt referring to Ng | Jul 09 18:07 |
| neighborlee | Ng, not you | Jul 09 18:07 |
| Ng | neighborlee: I think some people on both sides are being completely ridiculous about what should just be a simple technical and legal debate :) | Jul 09 18:07 |
| BobSprite | oh, ive got rage, :) im got it up the ying yang !! :) | Jul 09 18:07 |
| neighborlee | why | Jul 09 18:07 |
| BobSprite | it was never a technical or legal debate to start with. | Jul 09 18:07 |
| neighborlee | MinceR, and those that wont say so , are equally guilty | Jul 09 18:08 |
| MinceR | neighborlee: i don't understand | Jul 09 18:08 |
| BobSprite | equally guilty or equally innocent ??? | Jul 09 18:08 |
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| Muttley | neighborlee: so basically it's guilt by association? Have you apologised to every black man you've met for slavery? | Jul 09 18:14 |
| Muttley | bah | Jul 09 18:14 |
| BobSprite | was muttley duddley doolashes dog ? | Jul 09 18:16 |
| MinceR | no, Dick Dastardly's | Jul 09 18:16 |
| BobSprite | thats right whacky races ? | Jul 09 18:17 |
| Muttley | dick dastardly | Jul 09 18:17 |
| Muttley | yeah | Jul 09 18:17 |
| Muttley | and Dastardly & Muttley | Jul 09 18:17 |
| Muttley | where they have to catch the pidgon :) | Jul 09 18:17 |
| Muttley | this has been my irc nick for about 14 years now so I can't be arsed changing it | Jul 09 18:18 |
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| -BNc/#boycottnovell-[davidgerard] Charlie Stross has posted his autobiography to his blog. I loved this post on the arse-end of IT, and the comments: http://is.gd/1ssxD | Jul 09 18:28 | |
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| -BNc/#boycottnovell-[nickballard] Richard Stallman trolled by touchy-feely audience member: http://bit.ly/146VPw | Jul 09 19:23 | |
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| Omar87 | Hi | Jul 09 19:28 |
| Omar87 | http://blogs.zdnet.com/open-source/?p=4466 | Jul 09 19:28 |
| Omar87 | "But if “open core” is a perfectly legitimate open source stance, users may always wonder what is inside the core and what outside, an ambiguity vendors (starting with Microsoft) could use to end the free software era." | Jul 09 19:28 |
| Omar87 | Still, some people call me an idiot for not trusting the Community Promise. | Jul 09 19:29 |
| MinceR | i wonder if those people are paid to do so or are simply so stupid on their own. | Jul 09 19:29 |
| Omar87 | MinceR: Which poeple? | Jul 09 19:30 |
| Omar87 | people* | Jul 09 19:30 |
| MinceR | the ones who call you (and me) an idiot for not trusting the CP | Jul 09 19:31 |
| Omar87 | MinceR: LOL! Actually the guy who called me an idiot earlier today is in this channel right now, and he knows himself. :) | Jul 09 19:32 |
| Omar87 | I can even tell the first letter of his nickname. | Jul 09 19:32 |
| MinceR | we have high troll activity today. | Jul 09 19:32 |
| Omar87 | I just wonder. | Jul 09 19:33 |
| Omar87 | Why, on Mars, would a company which broke all the rules, law and standards morph into an angel and give FOSS and a long, lingering kiss all of a sudden? | Jul 09 19:35 |
| Omar87 | What are we?? Fools?! | Jul 09 19:35 |
| Omar87 | They ruined the entire ISO association a couple o' years back, for God's sake! | Jul 09 19:36 |
| Omar87 | >< | Jul 09 19:38 |
| MinceR | they say either that m$ has always been an angel ("leave your facts out of this!") or that all other companies are exactly as evil (and obviously, only companies can develop software, what did you think?) | Jul 09 19:38 |
| desu | <MinceR> i wonder if those people are paid to do so or are simply so stupid on their own. <--- mix of both | Jul 09 19:39 |
| Omar87 | M$ has always been angel.. >>> To be more accurate, M$ is a serpent which only idiots and naive people see as an angel. | Jul 09 19:41 |
| Omar87 | To all M$ fanboys: I dare you to give me one single reason why I should trust M$ now. | Jul 09 19:44 |
| desu | bcuz ur stoopid | Jul 09 19:45 |
| desu | that's what an M$ fanboy would say, not me >.> | Jul 09 19:45 |
| Omar87 | desu: Yeah man. That's all they have. | Jul 09 19:47 |
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| desu | no u | Jul 09 19:47 |
| desu | would be their rebuttal, not mine. | Jul 09 19:47 |
| Omar87 | desu: Huh? | Jul 09 19:48 |
| Omar87 | desu: Yeah, I know. | Jul 09 19:48 |
| desu | http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=no you | Jul 09 19:49 |
| desu | or http://encyclopediadramatica.com/No_u | Jul 09 19:49 |
| Lns | You guys, no matter how many little PR campaigns MS starts talking about how much open source they are...come on. Seriously. Do any of the people who have followed their track record actually buy it this time? | Jul 09 19:56 |
| Lns | It's the case of the forgetful. You forget all of the other bad things they've done to hurt the community because they say "I've changed!" (I get the picture of Saddam in the South Park movie, heh) | Jul 09 19:57 |
| Lns | Human memory is a valuable thing. You can't forget what they've done in the past. You can't deny their ultimate goal of power. They are a power hungry company. Always has been. They're not going to make an about face and be all "Oh, yeah, we decided to share all of our IP with the world because we woke up one morning and realized it was the right thing to do". The uppers in that company don't have that mindset. | Jul 09 19:58 |
| Lns | That being said, maybe *some* of the people there "get it" and are trying to make change. but something like that doesn't happen overnight | Jul 09 19:59 |
| MinceR | i think they never noticed what m$ did | Jul 09 19:59 |
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| MinceR | or never cared | Jul 09 19:59 |
| Lns | well then this initiative is moot to them... | Jul 09 20:01 |
| Lns | to the FOSS community..it's a bit different | Jul 09 20:01 |
| Omar87 | desu: ROFLMAO!! I friggi' loved this article! :D | Jul 09 20:01 |
| Omar87 | friggin'* | Jul 09 20:01 |
| desu | no u =3= | Jul 09 20:02 |
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| tessier_ | Wasn't Microsoft at some point forced to open up formats and protocols but documented them in a half-assed impossible to implement way? | Jul 09 20:26 |
| tessier_ | I was pretty sure some consent decree or somethign did that. | Jul 09 20:26 |
| tessier_ | Trying to find a cite... | Jul 09 20:26 |
| ThistleWeb | tessier: that was on the samba protocols, they tried their best to fight it, then didnt really comply in any meaningful way which got them into even more trouble | Jul 09 20:27 |
| ThistleWeb | MS have always tried to hide behind the "it's our IP, if we share it, they will get a leg up on us, and we get punished for innovating" excuse | Jul 09 20:28 |
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| Omar87 | ThistleWeb: That's only because they know that whatever it is they claim to be "their IP" is nothing new and is just a copy of some other open source technology. | Jul 09 21:02 |
| ThistleWeb | it did occur to me if part of the reason MS dont want thier code getting out, is that parts of it are not theirs, and the original owner would see it and make a legal claim of copyright infringement, not to mention those who understand code would see what a pile of shit it is, with evidence of distorting stuff to fuck with competitors | Jul 09 21:03 |
| ThistleWeb | if they just put out the compiled binary, the source (stolen or not) is never seen | Jul 09 21:04 |
| ThistleWeb | modified at certain times to ask for some new authorisation, suspiciously a few weeks after some FOSS project got it working smooth | Jul 09 21:07 |
| ThistleWeb | it'd be curious to see how many lawsuits the Windows source code could trigger for MS if it was ever made public | Jul 09 21:08 |
| ThistleWeb | or anti-trust investigations from those willing to do their jobs | Jul 09 21:08 |
| Lns | ThistleWeb: win2k source was made public not too long ago... | Jul 09 21:09 |
| Lns | not by their intention, of course =p | Jul 09 21:09 |
| ThistleWeb | a small part of it was | Jul 09 21:09 |
| ThistleWeb | they went nuts over it | Jul 09 21:09 |
| ThistleWeb | but it was only a tiny part | Jul 09 21:09 |
| ThistleWeb | apparently | Jul 09 21:09 |
| Lns | im sure most of their "borrowed" code was from *bsd licensed stuff anyway | Jul 09 21:10 |
| desu | NO | Jul 09 21:10 |
| ThistleWeb | most would be, yes | Jul 09 21:10 |
| desu | MY CODE! | Jul 09 21:10 |
| ThistleWeb | but I doubt all of it was | Jul 09 21:10 |
| Lns | it'd probably end up being just like Apple...bsd core, on top of their own ui | Jul 09 21:10 |
| MinceR | and they support sw patents just like crApple | Jul 09 21:11 |
| Lns | err...their own ui on top of the bsd core that is =p | Jul 09 21:11 |
| ThistleWeb | apple and MS do like free software; providing it's licensed under conditions that allow them to take it, modify it to help their lockin and not give the modifications back | Jul 09 21:11 |
| MinceR | well, they're notorious for building the gui into the kernel :> | Jul 09 21:11 |
| Lns | ha | Jul 09 21:11 |
| Lns | remember what their tcp/ip stack was like before they took the bsd version? | Jul 09 21:12 |
| ThistleWeb | the GPL requires them to give their changes back, hence the GP is their kryptonite | Jul 09 21:12 |
| MinceR | ThistleWeb: and after they've run off with the code, they try to make it impossible to publish such code in the future so they don't have to compete with those whose code they've ripped off. | Jul 09 21:12 |
| MinceR | Lns: they had one? | Jul 09 21:12 |
| Lns | MinceR: didn't they? or was that a 3rd pty thing | Jul 09 21:12 |
| MinceR | dunno | Jul 09 21:13 |
| Lns | I remember whatever it wsa, it was horrible...trumpet winsock or some junk | Jul 09 21:13 |
| MinceR | i vaguely remember trumpet winsock | Jul 09 21:13 |
| MinceR | i didn't have it because i didn't have internet access back then | Jul 09 21:13 |
| MinceR | maybe i eventually got it, i'm not sure | Jul 09 21:13 |
| Lns | I just remember looking at it during an os/2 install with renegade bbs on top of it | Jul 09 21:13 |
| Lns | yuck | Jul 09 21:13 |
| Lns | or wait, that was something else =p nm | Jul 09 21:14 |
| ThistleWeb | when your devs are constantly told by your marketing peeps to make stuff that only works with windows the results cant be good. Either you have to code from scratch stuff that already exists and is cross platform that you could take and modify | Jul 09 21:15 |
| ThistleWeb | when an elegant solution already exists, you have to intentionally fuck with it to meet the marketing peeps demands of lockin | Jul 09 21:15 |
| ThistleWeb | even if the devs know it's less efficient, or more buggy | Jul 09 21:16 |
| ThistleWeb | I guess the concept of using incompatibility as a weapon must sit OK with you if you work for MS | Jul 09 21:17 |
| ThistleWeb | so they wont lose sleep over the ethics of doing that | Jul 09 21:17 |
| Lns | well sure | Jul 09 21:17 |
| Lns | they think they're still the best around just because of their userbase | Jul 09 21:17 |
| Lns | that's their whole business...what they gained before competitors really could get a hold of the market | Jul 09 21:17 |
| Lns | they're doing everything they can to hold onto that, but it's slipping away as new technologies emerge | Jul 09 21:18 |
| ThistleWeb | plenty of peeps buy the whole "MS got to where they are by being the best" view of the FTSE | Jul 09 21:18 |
| MinceR | what's FTSE? | Jul 09 21:18 |
| ThistleWeb | if they were as bad as their critics claim, they wouldn't be a rich company | Jul 09 21:18 |
| ThistleWeb | stock exchange | Jul 09 21:18 |
| MinceR | ic | Jul 09 21:18 |
| ThistleWeb | the FTSE only shows the values, not what the companies do to get that value | Jul 09 21:19 |
| Lns | i fucking hate money.. it has hindered progress in all aspects of human life for way too long | Jul 09 21:19 |
| MinceR | nah, human nature did that | Jul 09 21:20 |
| ThistleWeb | child labor? well, if it helps pump the products out cheaper, so we get more profit I can pretend I didn't hear that | Jul 09 21:20 |
| ThistleWeb | where bribes and kickbacks are all just a cost of doing business | Jul 09 21:20 |
| Lns | money directly conflicts with morals/ethics imho | Jul 09 21:21 |
| ThistleWeb | write them of as a non-descript expense froma slush fund | Jul 09 21:21 |
| ThistleWeb | if the media get a sniff of it, send the legal bullies in to set them straight | Jul 09 21:21 |
| ThistleWeb | if they still insist, make a few calls and have any inquiry stopped under national security grounds | Jul 09 21:22 |
| Lns | lol | Jul 09 21:22 |
| Lns | just like M$ claimed it'd be a threat to national security if the source from windows was released | Jul 09 21:22 |
| MinceR | money merely stands in place of some other easily portable item in barter | Jul 09 21:22 |
| MinceR | (of course the system is a lot more screwy now, but that is money too) | Jul 09 21:22 |
| ThistleWeb | just make sure the important part goes down without a hitch......the envelopes of cash MUST get to their targets promptly | Jul 09 21:22 |
| Lns | MinceR: maybe that's the problem, we need to extinguish all universally portable items of value | Jul 09 21:23 |
| MinceR | lol | Jul 09 21:23 |
| Lns | hmmmmmmm... haha | Jul 09 21:24 |
| MinceR | no, we need to change the human mindset | Jul 09 21:24 |
| MinceR | eliminate the conditioning that turns society into what it is now | Jul 09 21:24 |
| Lns | but how can we fund a project like that?! =p | Jul 09 21:24 |
| Lns | it's not even all human societies...just the most powerful ones | Jul 09 21:25 |
| MinceR | i'd explain further but i'd get complaints of saying certain stuff here yet again | Jul 09 21:25 |
| ThistleWeb | it is funny that MS made special "secure" versions of Windows for the US military to stop them migrating away, when the masses had to rely on the regular old cheese version......which is the same one (multiplied by millions) that get's pwnd and used to attack the US military networks in the form of a botnet | Jul 09 21:25 |
| Lns | what goes around...heh | Jul 09 21:25 |
| Lns | MinceR: i agree with you 100% | Jul 09 21:25 |
| ThistleWeb | it would seem that a more scure windows would be in EVERY windows users' interests | Jul 09 21:25 |
| Lns | ThistleWeb: of course it would, just not the company | Jul 09 21:26 |
| MinceR | m$ sees it differently | Jul 09 21:26 |
| Lns | they wouldn't make money off the upgrades if that were the case | Jul 09 21:26 |
| ThistleWeb | it does have a heathy revinue stream from being insecure | Jul 09 21:26 |
| MinceR | also, withholding updates is one way they believe they can force verified illegal users to buy a license | Jul 09 21:26 |
| ThistleWeb | it's not exactly in their interests to make it secure | Jul 09 21:26 |
| Lns | you'd think one of the richest companies in the world could handle making their software secure after ~30 years | Jul 09 21:27 |
| ThistleWeb | MinceR: they used to do that with critical updates but not anymore | Jul 09 21:27 |
| ThistleWeb | they let critical ones go, even to windows they know are illegal | Jul 09 21:27 |
| MinceR | is every security update also critical? | Jul 09 21:27 |
| ThistleWeb | they just block all the optional ones, like new features, or versions of stuff like WMP | Jul 09 21:27 |
| MinceR | do they block updates to DRM? :> | Jul 09 21:28 |
| Lns | one good reason to use a pirated version of windows, i guess hahaha | Jul 09 21:28 |
| ThistleWeb | anything they deem critical, which is the security ones (and WGA and OGA etc) goes to every windows pc | Jul 09 21:28 |
| MinceR | ic | Jul 09 21:29 |
| ThistleWeb | the wga shit is annoying, you need to install it to get updates from microsoft.com | Jul 09 21:29 |
| ThistleWeb | but, you can disable the automatic updates in windows XP at least, then have it inform you but dont download and install | Jul 09 21:29 |
| MinceR | also, it's useless (see wine on ubuntu being "genuine") | Jul 09 21:29 |
| ThistleWeb | then you pick and choose what you want, unticking WGA inthe process, and it does it fine.....it offers you all the stuff supposedly behind the WGA requirement of the site | Jul 09 21:30 |
| ThistleWeb | anything unticked will trigger the "dont inform me of updates I have not ticked again" | Jul 09 21:31 |
| ThistleWeb | so you wont ever get the WGA, nor be pestered for it | Jul 09 21:31 |
| trmanco | "Replace instances of LINUX2 with OS_CHROMEOS and linux2 with chromeos." | Jul 09 21:32 |
| trmanco | haha | Jul 09 21:32 |
| MinceR | trmanco: huh? | Jul 09 21:32 |
| ThistleWeb | just make sure you select "custom install" to select the updates, because "automatic" will give you everything including WGA | Jul 09 21:32 |
| trmanco | MinceR, a commit from chromium | Jul 09 21:32 |
| trmanco | I think it might have to do with there future os | Jul 09 21:33 |
| MinceR | ic | Jul 09 21:33 |
| MinceR | i wonder if this also means that chrome browser will stop supporting x | Jul 09 21:34 |
| trmanco | nope | Jul 09 21:35 |
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| Omar87 | LOL. | Jul 09 21:48 |
| Omar87 | Now, that Google are building their own netbook OS, Win XP will no longer find place in the netbook market. :) | Jul 09 21:49 |
| Omar87 | find *it's* place | Jul 09 21:49 |
| ThistleWeb | there;s always a plcae if the kickbakcs are right | Jul 09 21:49 |
| ThistleWeb | let's try that again without typos "there's always a place if the kickbacks are right" | Jul 09 21:50 |
| ThistleWeb | I see a problem for MS when they can no longer pay their shills to promote them | Jul 09 21:50 |
| ThistleWeb | they have no real fans fighting their cause on merit | Jul 09 21:51 |
| ThistleWeb | those who do have some financial reason to do it | Jul 09 21:51 |
| ThistleWeb | not that is is a "problem" as such.....more of a prolonged popcorn hour | Jul 09 21:52 |
| MinceR | maybe there will be some who will try to beat some value into their worthless MSFT stock | Jul 09 21:52 |
| ThistleWeb | those also have something to gain by it | Jul 09 21:52 |
| ThistleWeb | they will have some who have bought into the myth, and beat the drum because it's all they know, and switching to anything else means they're back to normal user level | Jul 09 21:53 |
| ThistleWeb | for some reason I'm getting an image of a dead horse covered in fleas, with some fat blokes in suits beating the shit out of it | Jul 09 21:54 |
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| ThistleWeb | I'm sure it's coincidental ;) | Jul 09 21:54 |
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| ThistleWeb | another thought just occurred to me about the level of stability required in an "enterprise" level OS | Jul 09 21:58 |
| ThistleWeb | have they seen the shit windows does? | Jul 09 21:58 |
| ThistleWeb | yet that somehow found its way into almost every "enterprise desktop" situation on the planet | Jul 09 21:58 |
| ThistleWeb | basicly "as stable as windows" appears to be the benchmark | Jul 09 21:59 |
| MinceR | they've lowered the expectations | Jul 09 21:59 |
| ThistleWeb | which means that every testing beta version of Linux is "enterprise" ready | Jul 09 21:59 |
| ThistleWeb | that's the stuff that even linux users wouldn't install on a work desktop | Jul 09 22:00 |
| ThistleWeb | like LugRadio would say "as secure as windows" is like a "taller than Ronny Corbert competition"; it's not saying much | Jul 09 22:02 |
| ThistleWeb | stable even | Jul 09 22:03 |
| trmanco | ""MS is ROBUST and a titanic force." | Jul 09 22:06 |
| trmanco | I think you mean BLOATED not robust. But titanic fits. It sank too." | Jul 09 22:06 |
| trmanco | haha | Jul 09 22:06 |
| ThistleWeb | yeah, Titanic is a good description, with plenty of parasite companies gleefully fighting each other for a spot on the handrail to handcuff themselves to | Jul 09 22:07 |
| trmanco | http://blog.seattlepi.com/microsoft/archives/173243.asp | Jul 09 22:08 |
| ThistleWeb | asp gives off a friendly image.....a snake | Jul 09 22:08 |
| ThistleWeb | possibly even extinct | Jul 09 22:08 |
| ThistleWeb | the asp was mentioned a lot in regards to ancient Egypt | Jul 09 22:09 |
| trmanco | that's a microsoft blog | Jul 09 22:09 |
| trmanco | ./news site | Jul 09 22:09 |
| ThistleWeb | mind you, python can also fit that | Jul 09 22:09 |
| ThistleWeb | yeah, I'm suspect of sites which use MS formats like asp, that it's gonna be another MS shill site.....although you'd expect the MS site to do their own dirty work | Jul 09 22:10 |
| ThistleWeb | I noticed the BBC take on it had quotes from Rob Enderle and Gartner | Jul 09 22:12 |
| ThistleWeb | both completely neutral of course lol | Jul 09 22:12 |
| trmanco | :-) | Jul 09 22:13 |
| ThistleWeb | I noticed in the comments, "google is an unpatriotic competitor" which must mean unpatroitic to the US | Jul 09 22:18 |
| ThistleWeb | which means that if everyone thought like that and used software from their countries, MS could only sell in the US | Jul 09 22:19 |
| ThistleWeb | non-US peeps would be unpatriotic using MS products | Jul 09 22:19 |
| ThistleWeb | plenty of peeps resent the US domination of almost everything | Jul 09 22:19 |
| ThistleWeb | apart fromt he shareholders of the aforementioned US corporations | Jul 09 22:20 |
| ThistleWeb | I'm sure the MS sales team bring up the nationalism reason when in meetings with non-US buyers that it's their patriotic duty to buy US | Jul 09 22:20 |
| ThistleWeb | gotta be loyal to the US | Jul 09 22:21 |
| ThistleWeb | otherwise you risk being invaded | Jul 09 22:21 |
| ThistleWeb | ;) | Jul 09 22:21 |
| trmanco | http://debarshiray.multiply.com/journal/item/194/Solang_0.2_released | Jul 09 22:22 |
| trmanco | pff | Jul 09 22:22 |
| trmanco | or nuked | Jul 09 22:22 |
| trmanco | they like nukes | Jul 09 22:22 |
| ThistleWeb | trmanco: "pff"? were you channeling a dog fart? | Jul 09 22:23 |
| trmanco | ThistleWeb, LOL, no I changed my mind about what I would write next | Jul 09 22:24 |
| ThistleWeb | ahh, I would say "phew" but that'd play into the dog fart idea | Jul 09 22:25 |
| trmanco | that "pff" was accidental wasn't suppose to come out :-P | Jul 09 22:25 |
| ThistleWeb | some farts are like that | Jul 09 22:25 |
| trmanco | yeah | Jul 09 22:26 |
| ThistleWeb | specially when you're in a situation where you can;t deny it | Jul 09 22:26 |
| trmanco | but it wasn't a fart | Jul 09 22:26 |
| ThistleWeb | or it could possibly be more fragrant than you expect | Jul 09 22:26 |
| trmanco | schestowitz, is back? | Jul 09 22:28 |
| trmanco | he posted some articles | Jul 09 22:31 |
| trmanco | I wonder if he is back | Jul 09 22:31 |
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| tessier_ | MS has been afloat longer than Titanic ever was. | Jul 09 23:20 |
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| tessier_ | In fact the Titanic's successor, Queen Mary, sailed for 33 years. Microsoft has already been around for 34. | Jul 09 23:25 |
| tessier_ | So even had the Titanic lived a full life Microsoft likely would have outlived it. | Jul 09 23:25 |
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