IRC: #boycottnovell @ FreeNode: July 23rd, 2009

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Mr_Skittlez	wow, its very quiet in here	Jul 23 00:04
Diablo-D3	yeah, we're busy sacrificing kittens in RMS"s name	Jul 23 00:04
Mr_Skittlez	hahaha	Jul 23 00:04
oiaohm	Why kittens why not copies of windows we don't need.	Jul 23 00:08
Diablo-D3	because I hate peeling those stickers off	Jul 23 00:08
Diablo-D3	they leave sticky resedue	Jul 23 00:08
fewa	and talk about the certificate stickers	Jul 23 00:09
Diablo-D3	that, and I can't find the sticker on my powerbook either	Jul 23 00:09
oiaohm	Thing I hate about cerfiticate stickers	Jul 23 00:10
Mr_Skittlez	im on windows... just because i had the urge to push the limits of an asus eeepc 1000he	Jul 23 00:10
oiaohm	Is they rub off over time.	Jul 23 00:10
Mr_Skittlez	oh yeah	Jul 23 00:10
oiaohm	ie the ink.	Jul 23 00:10
Mr_Skittlez	that sux	Jul 23 00:10
oiaohm	MS released a self destructing product.	Jul 23 00:10
oiaohm	That then has a self destructing install key.	Jul 23 00:11
oiaohm	Nice of them.	Jul 23 00:11
Mr_Skittlez	lol	Jul 23 00:12
Diablo-D3	so	Jul 23 00:12
Diablo-D3	self destructing product with a self destructing key by a self destructing company	Jul 23 00:12
oiaohm	All it takes would have been a little bit of clear plasic over the paper to stop it from self destructing.	Jul 23 00:12
Diablo-D3	sounds about right	Jul 23 00:12
oiaohm	Or a solid plastic token.	Jul 23 00:13
oiaohm	Most people are too dumb to see they have been given a self destructing product.	Jul 23 00:13
oiaohm	http://www.geek.com/articles/mobile/tsera-sues-microsft-apple-and-many-more-over-touchpad-patent-infringement-20090722/ << Hello patent cluster bomb.	Jul 23 00:14
Mr_Skittlez	dang, let's all just start sueing everyone for patent infringement	Jul 23 00:16
oiaohm	http://www.microsoft.com/Presspass/press/2009/jul09/07-22Windows7RTMPR.mspx Ok windows 7 has entered production stage.	Jul 23 00:19
Mr_Skittlez	time to let the pirates do their thing	Jul 23 00:19
oiaohm	I expect some people to by windows 7 but I still expect it to be slow.	Jul 23 00:20
oiaohm	Lot of us as simply not interested.	Jul 23 00:20
fewa	its such a slow release cycle, and so little gets done	Jul 23 00:20
oiaohm	I am really not looking forward to windows 7	Jul 23 00:20
oiaohm	A new set of windows bugs to learn.	Jul 23 00:21
fewa	more anti-features	Jul 23 00:21
Mr_Skittlez	I'd be happy w/ linux if intel released gfix cards w/ good opengl support	Jul 23 00:21
oiaohm	I really don't care what one Mr_Skittlez	Jul 23 00:21
oiaohm	ATI or Intel.	Jul 23 00:21
oiaohm	As long as it works.	Jul 23 00:21
oiaohm	I will just buy hardware to match.	Jul 23 00:21
oiaohm	I have a few 8 year old machines here that should be replaced.	Jul 23 00:22
fewa	Intel stuff works well for basic stuff, support compiz and compositing	Jul 23 00:22
Diablo-D3	I like my radeon	Jul 23 00:22
oiaohm	Most of the issue is the new framework.	Jul 23 00:23
Mr_Skittlez	well.. I'm on an asus eeepc	Jul 23 00:23
oiaohm	DRI2 and KMS and galluim3d.	Jul 23 00:23
Mr_Skittlez	and it has a 950gma	Jul 23 00:23
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Mr_Skittlez	so basically, i can do more stuff using d3d than opengl	Jul 23 00:23
krenso	hello	Jul 23 00:24
Diablo-D3	not really	Jul 23 00:24
oiaohm	Once the low level alterations are done Linux might move away from X11.	Jul 23 00:24
Mr_Skittlez	n the 965 had dx10 support but not opengl2	Jul 23 00:24
Mr_Skittlez	but can someone explain how a card can support dx10 but not opengl2	Jul 23 00:24
oiaohm	Hi krenso	Jul 23 00:24
Diablo-D3	btw, wtf do you think your eeepc is supposed to be doing?	Jul 23 00:24
Mr_Skittlez	I like to push it	Jul 23 00:24
Diablo-D3	its not like its some 3d power house	Jul 23 00:24
krenso	http://www.linuxplanet.com/linuxplanet/reports/6801/2/ Tomboy depends upon, a number of libraries which are 'standard' in the sense that they're under C#'s "System" namespace	Jul 23 00:24
Mr_Skittlez	It can run psx emus quite nicely	Jul 23 00:24
krenso	but somewhat pointedly excluded from the ECMA specifications.	Jul 23 00:25
Mr_Skittlez	and Guild Wars too	Jul 23 00:25
Mr_Skittlez	and a few other games	Jul 23 00:25
krenso	do you know what libraries tomboy uses, that aren	Jul 23 00:25
krenso	't covered by ecma	Jul 23 00:25
krenso	?	Jul 23 00:25
krenso	i found list of mono libraries http://go-mono.com/status/	Jul 23 00:26
krenso	http://mono-project.com/.NET_Framework_Architecture	Jul 23 00:26
oiaohm	ecma lists to functions in libraries.	Jul 23 00:27
oiaohm	So way more complex krenso	Jul 23 00:27
oiaohm	It don't just divide at library level.	Jul 23 00:27
thenixedreport	http://linuxlock.blogspot.com/2009/07/oh-where-oh-where-have-agp-slots-gone.html	Jul 23 00:29
oiaohm	Basically you would have to go function by function used by tomboy and check that is in ECMA.	Jul 23 00:29
oiaohm	gnote is a lot less work to prove patent safe krenso	Jul 23 00:29
krenso	oiaohm, i just want to list those libraries on wikipedia	Jul 23 00:31
krenso	so others will know	Jul 23 00:31
oiaohm	Its also in a mother of a xml file with the standard.	Jul 23 00:32
krenso	ok, i have done so far	Jul 23 00:33
krenso	git clone git://git.gnome.org/tomboy	Jul 23 00:33
krenso	cd tomboy	Jul 23 00:33
krenso	grep -ir "using System" *	Jul 23 00:33
krenso	here i see link to ecma http://lists.ximian.com/pipermail/mono-list/2004-January/017982.html	Jul 23 00:34
krenso	http://www.ecma-international.org/publications/files/ECMA-ST/Ecma-335-xml.zip	Jul 23 00:35
oiaohm	Yep that xml file	Jul 23 00:35
oiaohm	lists all the functions from System and the like you are allowed to use to have patent coverage.	Jul 23 00:35
oiaohm	If they use 1 function in System that is not listed they are not covered.	Jul 23 00:36
oiaohm	Ms has basically made implementing .net a bug.	Jul 23 00:37
oiaohm	There is no coverage for future versions of .net and there is no coverage for winforms or asp.net either.	Jul 23 00:37
Diablo-D3	wow, thats lame	Jul 23 00:38
Diablo-D3	I'm glad Im using java	Jul 23 00:38
oiaohm	Exactly what I was thinking.	Jul 23 00:39
oiaohm	I more use php than java but still.	Jul 23 00:39
Diablo-D3	perl > php AND YOU KNOW IT	Jul 23 00:39
oiaohm	Depends.	Jul 23 00:39
oiaohm	I could be worse and using perl coverted to C	Jul 23 00:40
Diablo-D3	speed? code reuse? memory usage?	Jul 23 00:40
oiaohm	Debuging Diablo-D3	Jul 23 00:40
Diablo-D3	and the fact fastcgi on perl actually works	Jul 23 00:40
Diablo-D3	oh that too, debugging perl is much easier	Jul 23 00:40
oiaohm	No building to test if I have fixed it yet.	Jul 23 00:40
Diablo-D3	I dont need to do that either	Jul 23 00:41
oiaohm	java down side is its bytecode.	Jul 23 00:41
Diablo-D3	java's upside is it's bytecode too	Jul 23 00:41
oiaohm	Not really.	Jul 23 00:41
Diablo-D3	compile once run on your mom.	Jul 23 00:41
oiaohm	AOT on a script would give equal performance.	Jul 23 00:41
Diablo-D3	yes, but, I hate php	Jul 23 00:42
oiaohm	Each to there own.	Jul 23 00:42
oiaohm	python web pages are warped.	Jul 23 00:42
Diablo-D3	python * is warped	Jul 23 00:43
Diablo-D3	so is RoR	Jul 23 00:43
oiaohm	The bytecode was a good middle step until we started getting better compliers.	Jul 23 00:43
oiaohm	And faster cpus.	Jul 23 00:43
krenso	unzip Ecma-335-xml.zip	Jul 23 00:43
Diablo-D3	but its still great for not having to compile lots of times	Jul 23 00:44
krenso	grep -i 'Type Name="' CLILibraryTypes.xml	Jul 23 00:44
oiaohm	bytecode had it place in the under 600 mhz.	Jul 23 00:44
Diablo-D3	I can create a linux "binary" and it runs on all linuxes, not just ia32+amd64	Jul 23 00:44
Diablo-D3	not only that, hotspot can runtime optimize the program based on usage	Jul 23 00:44
oiaohm	There are ways to hotspot native code.	Jul 23 00:45
Diablo-D3	yes, but it sucks	Jul 23 00:45
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Diablo-D3	and lets say python switches to llvm	Jul 23 00:45
Diablo-D3	all they're doing is javaing the problem.	Jul 23 00:45
oiaohm	Not really.	Jul 23 00:45
Diablo-D3	compile to bytecode, optimize the hell out of it	Jul 23 00:45
oiaohm	llvm allows hotspotting on native code.	Jul 23 00:45
Diablo-D3	llvm's internal representation is bytecode	Jul 23 00:46
oiaohm	All compliers these days have a internal bytecode of optimizing.	Jul 23 00:46
oiaohm	Including gcc	Jul 23 00:46
Diablo-D3	gcc kinda sucks though	Jul 23 00:46
Diablo-D3	llvm was designed as the new gcc backend, and politics killed gcc	Jul 23 00:46
oiaohm	Not realy.	Jul 23 00:46
oiaohm	gcc is a mess internally.	Jul 23 00:47
Diablo-D3	yes, and llvm solved a lot of that mess in the backend	Jul 23 00:47
oiaohm	clean up has taken ages.	Jul 23 00:47
Diablo-D3	its also faster, smarter, and applicable to things not gcc	Jul 23 00:47
oiaohm	llvm has been working on building new front ends.	Jul 23 00:47
Diablo-D3	no, apple has	Jul 23 00:47
Diablo-D3	apple has a prototype gcc replacement that uses llvm	Jul 23 00:47
Diablo-D3	compiles c, c++, and objc	Jul 23 00:47
Diablo-D3	its already powerful enough to compile dragonbsd's kernel and basic userland	Jul 23 00:47
oiaohm	Gcc frount ends use directly by passes the bytecode and talk straight to the back end.	Jul 23 00:48
Diablo-D3	you can do that with llvm too	Jul 23 00:48
oiaohm	Really.	Jul 23 00:48
Diablo-D3	you dont have to deal with llvm's internal representation	Jul 23 00:48
Diablo-D3	llvm has stuff for that	Jul 23 00:48
oiaohm	All the nightmares of gcc are caused by that.	Jul 23 00:48
Diablo-D3	what Im saying is llvm has an API to directly talk to it	Jul 23 00:49
Diablo-D3	it internally generates bytecode	Jul 23 00:49
Diablo-D3	but you never see it and never have to deal with it	Jul 23 00:49
oiaohm	Frount end should not be sending instructions out of line with optimisers.	Jul 23 00:49
oiaohm	Other wise optimisers can make major goofs.	Jul 23 00:49
Diablo-D3	llvm _is_ the optimizer	Jul 23 00:49
Diablo-D3	llvm is the low level optimizer	Jul 23 00:50
Diablo-D3	optimization is a two stage process	Jul 23 00:50
oiaohm	Like the recent one removing if statements incorrectly.	Jul 23 00:50
oiaohm	In the Linux kernel.	Jul 23 00:50
Diablo-D3	you optimize all the high level stuff, llvm optimizes all the low level stuff	Jul 23 00:50
Diablo-D3	you talk to llvm using a machine code-like bytecode language.	Jul 23 00:50
oiaohm	Same as gcc.	Jul 23 00:50
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Diablo-D3	yup, just like gcc	Jul 23 00:50
Diablo-D3	just like most compilers	Jul 23 00:50
oiaohm	The goof in gcc recently.	Jul 23 00:50
Diablo-D3	the frontend obviously should not be generating machine code itself	Jul 23 00:51
oiaohm	was causes by front end being able to send instructions to the back end that the optimise could not see.	Jul 23 00:51
Diablo-D3	it can generate hints, sure	Jul 23 00:51
oiaohm	So the back end altered something.	Jul 23 00:51
Diablo-D3	yeah, thats just bad design	Jul 23 00:51
oiaohm	That the optimiser was depend on.	Jul 23 00:51
Diablo-D3	the low level optimizer should not be out-thought	Jul 23 00:52
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Diablo-D3	I wonder who let that patch in	Jul 23 00:52
oiaohm	Front end should have no way to by pass optimiser.	Jul 23 00:52
Diablo-D3	yeah exactly	Jul 23 00:52
Diablo-D3	the front end should talk to the backend, period	Jul 23 00:52
Diablo-D3	not specific parts of it bypassing others	Jul 23 00:52
oiaohm	Frontend to optimiser	Jul 23 00:53
oiaohm	To backend.	Jul 23 00:53
oiaohm	No other path.	Jul 23 00:53
Diablo-D3	the backend optimizer is part of the backend	Jul 23 00:53
oiaohm	backend that makes native platform bits.	Jul 23 00:53
Diablo-D3	thats part of the backend too =P	Jul 23 00:53
Diablo-D3	the backend also has multiple stages	Jul 23 00:53
oiaohm	Its really 3 parts.	Jul 23 00:53
oiaohm	optimistion is part frontend part backend.	Jul 23 00:54
Diablo-D3	frontend = { syntax parser, high level optimization, bytecode creation }	Jul 23 00:54
Diablo-D3	backend = { bytecode parsing, low level optimization, machine code production }	Jul 23 00:54
Diablo-D3	thats how its supposed to work.	Jul 23 00:54
oiaohm	Central optmiser processed the bytecode removing lots of stuff.	Jul 23 00:54
Diablo-D3	oiaohm: see above	Jul 23 00:54
oiaohm	Before the bytecode it passed to backend for native output.	Jul 23 00:54
Diablo-D3	thats how a sanly designed compiler works	Jul 23 00:55
oiaohm	Basicaly its become 3 stages.	Jul 23 00:55
Diablo-D3	its 2 stages	Jul 23 00:55
oiaohm	The bytecode processing stage is a new stage.	Jul 23 00:55
Diablo-D3	it just has complex stages with stages of their own	Jul 23 00:55
Diablo-D3	but its still frontend/backend	Jul 23 00:55
Diablo-D3	frontend is everything to do with the language	Jul 23 00:55
Diablo-D3	backend is everything to do with the machine	Jul 23 00:56
Diablo-D3	theres no middle step	Jul 23 00:56
oiaohm	But the bytecode stage is language independant and machine independant for a block of processing.	Jul 23 00:56
Diablo-D3	with bytecode oriented languages, theres a "middle step" that just stores/retrieves the bytecode	Jul 23 00:56
oiaohm	Like loop solving.	Jul 23 00:56
Diablo-D3	oiaohm: "no"	Jul 23 00:56
oiaohm	And static state solving.	Jul 23 00:56
Diablo-D3	you have to loop solve twice	Jul 23 00:56
Diablo-D3	unrolling loops is part of the language	Jul 23 00:57
Diablo-D3	er, front end	Jul 23 00:57
Diablo-D3	at least, it should be	Jul 23 00:57
Diablo-D3	I have no clue how gcc does it	Jul 23 00:57
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oiaohm	gcc unrolling is language independant	Jul 23 00:57
Diablo-D3	yes, but that doesnt mean its not part of the frontend	Jul 23 00:57
oiaohm	Front end does not bother with it.	Jul 23 00:57
krenso	ok, i have found this list http://mono-project.com/Libraries	Jul 23 00:58
Diablo-D3	if gcc has gone into three stages, its doing it really wrong	Jul 23 00:58
krenso	after grepping tomboy source, i can't say what exactly libraries it uses	Jul 23 00:58
Diablo-D3	krenso: look for all the use statements	Jul 23 00:58
oiaohm	Mostly because unrolling of C and C++ and Java ... and many other langauges are basically the same Diablo-D3	Jul 23 00:58
krenso	because there is often "using System;"	Jul 23 00:58
Diablo-D3	oiaohm: yup, but that would be exposed as a generic language "library" that plugs into frontends	Jul 23 00:59
Diablo-D3	so common tasks can be shares	Jul 23 00:59
krenso	so i think there should be deeper look at functions	Jul 23 00:59
Diablo-D3	krenso: you can only using System; for things that are in System	Jul 23 00:59
oiaohm	also gcc is design to accept bytecode input for merging two bytecodes into 1 Diablo-D3	Jul 23 00:59
Diablo-D3	.net splits bigger chunks out	Jul 23 00:59
Diablo-D3	you you specifically have to load them	Jul 23 00:59
Diablo-D3	oiaohm: meh	Jul 23 01:00
oiaohm	Where unrolling between bytecodes still would have to be performed Diablo-D3	Jul 23 01:00
Diablo-D3	oiaohm: lets go back to the part where I said java is awesome	Jul 23 01:00
Diablo-D3	because it is	Jul 23 01:00
oiaohm	Java split it into 3 too.	Jul 23 01:00
Diablo-D3	enough	Jul 23 01:00
krenso	What is in system?	Jul 23 01:00
Diablo-D3	no more talking about optimization	Jul 23 01:00
Diablo-D3	krenso: the small boring shit	Jul 23 01:01
krenso	not all other libraries?	Jul 23 01:01
krenso	is system covered by ecma?	Jul 23 01:01
Diablo-D3	I would hope so	Jul 23 01:01
Diablo-D3	for example, Object is in system	Jul 23 01:01
oiaohm	some of.	Jul 23 01:01
oiaohm	Not all of system.	Jul 23 01:01
oiaohm	Never versions of .net added extra functions to system.	Jul 23 01:01
Diablo-D3	I hate how .net has an illogically split base library	Jul 23 01:01
oiaohm	I can see llvm waking up there will have to move unrolling back to common.	Jul 23 01:02
krenso	so if some files has line using System; i have to search all it functions and check from which library it is?	Jul 23 01:03
krenso	so far i get this list http://rofrol.wordpress.com/2009/07/23/what-non-ecma-libraries-tomboy-is-using/	Jul 23 01:03
oiaohm	The 3 stage comes from intel and suns complier designs that allowed prebuild dyanmic files to be turned into static. Diablo-D3.	Jul 23 01:03
Diablo-D3	whatever	Jul 23 01:04
Diablo-D3	oiaohm: Im not writing a compiler	Jul 23 01:04
Diablo-D3	as long as the shit works fast, I dont care	Jul 23 01:04
oiaohm	dynamic binary to static binary conversion is nice.	Jul 23 01:05
oiaohm	Also the means to patch binaries that some of the closed have.	Jul 23 01:06
oiaohm	Is that a list of things not in the Ecma krenso in tomboy	Jul 23 01:09
krenso	No, it is list of libraries that Tomboy is using	Jul 23 01:10
Diablo-D3	krenso: hey	Jul 23 01:10
krenso	excluding "using System;"	Jul 23 01:10
Diablo-D3	you may want to grep for something like Foo*(	Jul 23 01:10
oiaohm	System.Windows.Forms << 100 percent not krenso	Jul 23 01:10
Diablo-D3	where foo is things in System	Jul 23 01:10
oiaohm	That is no covered by the ECMA	Jul 23 01:11
oiaohm	System.Xml.XPath also not.	Jul 23 01:11
oiaohm	Hmm they cannot read there safe file how nice.	Jul 23 01:11
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oiaohm	System.Xml.Xsl	Jul 23 01:12
oiaohm	System.Xml is there so major rewirte fun krenso	Jul 23 01:13
oiaohm	System.Web is also not there so no sync with webservers either krenso	Jul 23 01:14
oiaohm	As soon as you remove the bits that are not covered tomboy is less functional than gnote.	Jul 23 01:14
oiaohm	System.Security.Cryptography no encryption either. Hopefully you have no private notes.	Jul 23 01:15
oiaohm	System.Runtime.Remoting is also not there.	Jul 23 01:17
oiaohm	I think that should be a good enough start krenso	Jul 23 01:18
oiaohm	Its basically busted.	Jul 23 01:18
krenso	i have updated post	Jul 23 01:18
oiaohm	I did not do the full list.	Jul 23 01:18
oiaohm	I just picked out the bits I suspected most not to be there.	Jul 23 01:19
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thenixedreport	Darn.	Jul 23 01:48
thenixedreport	Roy's not there.	Jul 23 01:48
thenixedreport	:)	Jul 23 01:48
Diablo-D3	roy is everywhere	Jul 23 01:48
Diablo-D3	he is all knowning	Jul 23 01:48
Diablo-D3	ROY IS GOD	Jul 23 01:49
Diablo-D3	ALL WORSHIP THE ALMIGHTY ROY	Jul 23 01:49
Diablo-D3	I'm not worthy! I'm not worthy!	Jul 23 01:49
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thenixedreport	Sorry.	Jul 23 02:23
thenixedreport	RMS is my god.	Jul 23 02:23
thenixedreport	And I have been saved by the Church of Emacs.	Jul 23 02:23
thenixedreport	Though to be honest, I do like the graphical interface for Emacs.	Jul 23 02:24
twitter	A heretic. There are no gods in the church of emacs.	Jul 23 02:30
twitter	and I'd hope you are honest all the time	Jul 23 02:31
thenixedreport	lol	Jul 23 03:01
thenixedreport	He said "yet"	Jul 23 03:01
thenixedreport	:)	Jul 23 03:01
thenixedreport	Anyhoo.	Jul 23 03:02
thenixedreport	:)	Jul 23 03:02
thenixedreport	Thanks to a friend of mine, I may have fixed my Phenom 9600 problem.	Jul 23 03:02
thenixedreport	64-bit systems would crash or just freeze.	Jul 23 03:02
thenixedreport	I turned TLB Fix off.	Jul 23 03:02
thenixedreport	And it hasn't froze yet.	Jul 23 03:02
thenixedreport	:D	Jul 23 03:02
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wallclimber	After a lot of thought, today, and after having a conversation with a distinctly dislike-able Gnome person, I've decided to no longer use Gnome. I'm downloading Kubuntu and Mandriva right now. Any other suggestions of KDE distros to try?	Jul 23 05:24
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wallclimber	I'm downloading Kubuntu and Mandriva right now. Any other suggestions of KDE distros to try?	Jul 23 05:40
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-BNc/#boycottnovell-[scientes] Public debate launches the Canadian DMCA http://bit.ly/10wZky Why not the #ACTA ?		Jul 23 05:48
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[scientes] Churches, mosques: broadband beyond luxury, a critical public utility necessary for public discourse http://is.gd/1Ia6C http://is.gd/1Ia7x		Jul 23 05:48
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-BNc/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] @davidgerard this is it http://bit.ly/b8WXq		Jul 23 05:50
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] Apollo 11 Produces Free Software http://ping.fm/mPtyE		Jul 23 06:00
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Lefty_	Hm. Quiet here, too.	Jul 23 06:11
Lefty_	Have I been discouraging you folks?	Jul 23 06:11
Lefty_	I wanted to see how WIlly	Jul 23 06:11
Lefty_	is doing with his dossier.	Jul 23 06:11
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] OpenOffice Renaissance Shows Future Directions http://ping.fm/jDXLn		Jul 23 06:11
Lefty_	see if he had any quiestions he wanted to ask.	Jul 23 06:12
Lefty_	So, Roy, is it true that you're _afraid_ to go to conferences?	Jul 23 06:12
Lefty_	I've gotta tell you, Roy, the polite debate thing is fine with me, but I think it'skilling your core constituency.	Jul 23 06:13
Lefty_	oh, and thanks for all the nice quotes from the IRC log on Sunday,desu!	Jul 23 06:14
Lefty_	Helps prove my point about "sexism in the community".	Jul 23 06:14
Lefty_	you guys are a great "bad example".	Jul 23 06:14
Lefty_	oh--you might want to check out my latest blog post, if you haven't yet.	Jul 23 06:15
Lefty_	seems like it gave mono-nono Jason a kind of conniption.	Jul 23 06:15
Lefty_	Roy, did that comment of yours about "Penguin Pete" get back to him yet...?	Jul 23 06:16
Lefty_	you do have this bad habit of talking smack about people behind their backs...	Jul 23 06:16
Lefty_	He probably talks about _you_ guys behind _your_ backs... =D	Jul 23 06:18
Lefty_	Hey, here's an interesting story: http://edward.oconnor.cx/2005/04/rms	Jul 23 06:22
Lefty_	Some developer who was working on EMACS with RMS had a baby right around the time that RMS wanted a lot of code refactored....	Jul 23 06:22
Lefty_	Other people on the project congratulated him on the birth...	Jul 23 06:23
Lefty_	RMS wrote " It doesn’t take special talents to reproduce—even plants can do it. On the other hand, contributing to a program like Emacs takes real skill. That is really something to be proud of. It helps more people, too."	Jul 23 06:23
Lefty_	So, when Jose suggests that I should have written him "differently", I'm skeptical that I would have gotten a different result.	Jul 23 06:24
Lefty_	I want you bozos to note that I have _not_ blasted this far and wide.	Jul 23 06:25
Lefty_	which sort of blows a hole in your thesis that I''m "out to get RMS" by any means, I suppose.	Jul 23 06:25
Lefty_	Them's the breaks, boys.	Jul 23 06:25
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twitter	Gnomes say, "Hi, Bill" http://www.time.com/time/world/article/0,8599,1911626,00.html?cnn=yes	Jul 23 06:34
twitter	Time.	Jul 23 06:35
twitter	a troll -> The gnome's creator, German artist Ottmar Hörl, says he never intended to offend anyone, and can't understand what all the fuss is about.	Jul 23 06:36
twitter	Wait, it's rather rich -> Each of the gnomes has the word poisoned inscribed at its base. "People everywhere in the world can be ideologically poisoned, just as Germans were by the Nazis," says Hörl.	Jul 23 06:37
twitter	Poisoned Gnome!	Jul 23 06:37
MinceR	"German criminal law, which forbids the use of symbols from unconstitutional organizations" -- i hope they forbid the use of symbols that were left over from monarchy :>	Jul 23 06:40
twitter	no pictures of GWB please.	Jul 23 06:41
MinceR	:D	Jul 23 06:41
twitter	Bush watches his family http://news.yahoo.com/s/ynews/ynews_pl823	Jul 23 06:43
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Lefty_	Oh, tjhere's the fellow I've been wanting to see!	Jul 23 07:28
Lefty_	Mr. Hil!	Jul 23 07:29
Lefty_	I gather you're putting together some sort of dossier on me?	Jul 23 07:29
Lefty_	I haven't gone back through the IRC logs to see exactly what "as much as you could find" you dumped in here a few days ago.	Jul 23 07:30
Lefty_	want to share?	Jul 23 07:30
Lefty_	or do yo have any questions?	Jul 23 07:30
Lefty_	Huh, I guess posting that stuff from the other day must've embarassed you guys or something...	Jul 23 07:32
Lefty_	maybe you're just feeling demoralized....	Jul 23 07:32
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-BNc/#boycottnovell-[_goblin] Are we not due for some figures from #Microsoft ? Lets see what sort of spin can be put on that... Heres to waiting. #windows #vista #xp		Jul 23 08:47
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Trials	MS figues are going to be down, just after the development of their next flagship product but before the release of it, and in this depressed market. Its hard for it to be anything else but down.	Jul 23 09:26
Diablo-D3	I agree with Trials	Jul 23 09:27
Diablo-D3	microsoft is going to have bad numbers	Jul 23 09:27
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thenixedreport	@Lefty_: Penguin Pete actually libelled Ken Starks over Tux500.	Jul 23 09:51
thenixedreport	You may want to do some research into that.	Jul 23 09:52
thenixedreport	PP also quashes criticism if it's heavy enough by deleting comments.	Jul 23 09:52
thenixedreport	I've got the screenshots to prove it.	Jul 23 09:55
thenixedreport	He's only "standing up" for Roy to drive traffic to his blog.	Jul 23 09:55
Diablo-D3	thenixedreport: thats a brilliant idea	Jul 23 10:00
Diablo-D3	wait, hold up, no it aint	Jul 23 10:00
Diablo-D3	I stood up for java vs c#	Jul 23 10:01
Diablo-D3	and the only traffic I got was a bunch of fucktards and microsoft shills	Jul 23 10:01
Diablo-D3	Im not sure if I want that sort of traffic	Jul 23 10:01
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] Are Speakers for FOSS Actually FOSS Supporters? http://ping.fm/I29Dg		Jul 23 10:10
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] More Self-serving, Lockin-oriented GPL Code from Microsoft http://ping.fm/yQndt		Jul 23 10:35
crunchy135711	have there been any suggestions to fork gnome into a mono free branch?	Jul 23 10:36
Ng	wouldn't that be exactly the same, just with tomboy removed?	Jul 23 10:39
crunchy135711	not sure, but the number of apps like tomboy is growing	Jul 23 10:40
crunchy135711	as far as I understand the idea is to slowly shift whole of gnome to mono	Jul 23 10:41
Ng	tomboy is the only Mono based app in the official GNOME module list	Jul 23 10:41
Ng	http://live.gnome.org/TwoPointTwentyseven/Desktop	Jul 23 10:41
Ng	some distributions choose to change that list or add things to it, which may include mono apps, but that's nothing to do with GNOME per-se	Jul 23 10:42
Ng	crunchy135711: where do you have that understanding from? most of the core gnome developers are very firmly wedded to C/Vala	Jul 23 10:43
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-BNc/#boycottnovell-[davidgerard] @schestowitz yeah. linux av scanners are useful to protect windows boxes on the same network. but clamav is plenty good enough.		Jul 23 11:32
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fewa	im always amazed how all these GNOME C apps can be such resource hogs	Jul 23 11:53
fewa	all the little applets use like 15-20MB of RAM and tend to burn CPU	Jul 23 11:54
crunchy135711	isnt kde even worse in this regard?	Jul 23 11:54
fewa	idk	Jul 23 11:55
Ng	fewa: it's surprisingly hard to get a good answer of how much memory something is using, but there is certainly room for improvement	Jul 23 12:01
fewa	not really	Jul 23 12:01
fewa	install htop	Jul 23 12:01
Ng	which columns are you looking at though? :)	Jul 23 12:01
fewa	RES and SHR	Jul 23 12:01
fewa	cant get virt memory used	Jul 23 12:02
Ng	fewa: are you sure you know what RES means? :)	Jul 23 12:04
fewa	KDE4 default on fedora amd64 seems much better than gnome	Jul 23 12:04
fewa	well how do i get something better?	Jul 23 12:05
fewa	what about TRS, DRS, LRS and DT ?	Jul 23 12:05
fewa	cause SIZE is obviously just what has been mapped but not neccicarily been used	Jul 23 12:06
fewa	resident is still important	Jul 23 12:06
fewa	and GNOME apps often use 15MB RES	Jul 23 12:06
Ng	RES includes bits of SHR	Jul 23 12:07
fewa	ahh well share is generally useless unless you notice a multiprocessor app is using it	Jul 23 12:08
fewa	lets you correct how much ram the total is using	Jul 23 12:09
Ng	SHR means shared objects, so mostly that's going to be libraries	Jul 23 12:09
Ng	but the pages of those libraries that a process cares about, will be included in its RES count afair	Jul 23 12:09
Ng	and VIRT includes the entire address space of the process, so it's completely useless as a number ;)	Jul 23 12:10
fewa	i know that	Jul 23 12:11
fewa	ie SIZE	Jul 23 12:11
fewa	meh kde4 seems a little better on the rediculous ram used applets, xcept for kde's printer-applet which has 17 MB RES	Jul 23 12:12
fewa	while GNOME mixer_applet2: 17, update-notifier: 15, gnome-power-manager: 13, gnome-volume-control-applet: 11, gnome-session: 9, seahorse-daemon: 7	Jul 23 12:13
Ng	if I add up the RSS column from ps I get 1326128 on my running system, but free shows I only have 1076552 bytes of memory being used for things that aren't buffers/cache, so there's 300MB in the RSS column that's being shared among the processes	Jul 23 12:13
fewa	seahorse-agent: 6	Jul 23 12:14
fewa	i guess alot of this could be glib shared stuff	Jul 23 12:14
Ng	yup	Jul 23 12:14
fewa	maybe ~5/process	Jul 23 12:14
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] Why Linux Did Not Need Microsoft’s Code Injection http://ping.fm/THXqx		Jul 23 12:14
fewa	ever tried to use GNOME or KDE4 on a 256MB system?	Jul 23 12:15
fewa	but i guess there are not many of those left...	Jul 23 12:15
Ng	nope :)	Jul 23 12:16
Ng	I don't really care about old, low power systems. nobody has taken the old code away from those people	Jul 23 12:16
fewa	even on 1GB its quite constrained	Jul 23 12:16
Ng	if RH5 ran fine on such a system, run RH5 on it	Jul 23 12:16
fewa	i run debian w/ lxde	Jul 23 12:17
Ng	by far the largest memory users I have are my browser and mail client, and that will always be true	Jul 23 12:17
fewa	I dont see why we should put our resources into the chrome	Jul 23 12:17
fewa	it should be for the real apps	Jul 23 12:17
fewa	mail client?	Jul 23 12:17
fewa	that should be all cache	Jul 23 12:17
crunchy135711	ng - thunderbird?	Jul 23 12:17
crunchy135711	I use it, and dont get why it nees 100 mb	Jul 23 12:18
*fewa uses evolution		Jul 23 12:18
*fewa doesnt like thunderbird		Jul 23 12:19
crunchy135711	why not	Jul 23 12:19
fewa	its doesnt like plain text	Jul 23 12:19
Ng	crunchy135711: yep, I have thunderbird talking to three IMAP accounts with several gigs of mail, so I don't really feel it's being unreasonable by having a large RAM footprint ;)	Jul 23 12:20
trmanco	waht?	Jul 23 12:20
trmanco	thunderbird loves plain text	Jul 23 12:21
trmanco	evolution's html engine is pure crap compared to thunderbird's btw	Jul 23 12:22
fewa	well of course	Jul 23 12:22
fewa	its got xulrunner	Jul 23 12:22
fewa	but they are going to switch evolution over to gtk-webkit	Jul 23 12:22
Ng	they've only just ported evolution off bonobo ;)	Jul 23 12:23
trmanco	Firefox 3.6 will come by the end of tis year as a major update to FF 3.5	Jul 23 12:24
trmanco	they should have changed to webkit long ago	Jul 23 12:24
fewa	3.5 already was a big update	Jul 23 12:24
fewa	they would have to give up MPL then	Jul 23 12:25
trmanco	I'm talking about evolution	Jul 23 12:26
fewa	ahh yes	Jul 23 12:27
fewa	that makes more sense	Jul 23 12:27
trmanco	:-P	Jul 23 12:28
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oiaohm	http://www.linuxpromagazine.com/Online/News/Microsoft-Releases-Moodle-Plugin-under-GPL << Anyone else getting the feeling MS is desperate.	Jul 23 12:36
crunchy135711	not sure about desperate :)	Jul 23 12:37
crunchy135711	they still have 90% of the market	Jul 23 12:38
fewa	crunchy135711, really?	Jul 23 12:38
fewa	i mean, you sure?	Jul 23 12:38
crunchy135711	http://www.statowl.com/operating_system_market_share.php	Jul 23 12:39
fewa	what makes you believe their numbers?	Jul 23 12:39
crunchy135711	I have seen similar numbers elsewhere	Jul 23 12:40
fewa	even microsoft's nubers are differnt http://www.osnews.com/story/21035/Ballmer_Linux_Bigger_Competitor_than_Apple	Jul 23 12:40
fewa	and all of these numbers are desktops only	Jul 23 12:40
crunchy135711	ballmer means the server market I think	Jul 23 12:41
crunchy135711	yes	Jul 23 12:41
fewa	no "Economic effect on home and business PC's"	Jul 23 12:41
fewa	those are desktops	Jul 23 12:41
Trials	those figures seem about right with others and personal experience	Jul 23 12:41
fewa	look at the graphc	Jul 23 12:41
fewa	*graph	Jul 23 12:41
oiaohm	Ebox a server distribution is now looking at desktop intergration with ubuntu that will make the process of deploying Ubuntu desktops simpler.	Jul 23 12:42
oiaohm	Once ads lands for samba there is going to be a nice battle.	Jul 23 12:42
oiaohm	Also why its funny with the moodle plugin is openchange is planing to have the first demo of a really basic exchange clone.	Jul 23 12:58
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schestowitz	oiaohm: not desperate (Microsoft)	Jul 23 14:34
schestowitz	Think of it as plan B	Jul 23 14:34
schestowitz	fewa says it right	Jul 23 14:34
schestowitz	What I said last year (or 2007) about using Xen/VMs in general as a gateway	Jul 23 14:34
schestowitz	Microsoft is putting a hook in Linux with which to demote Linux	Jul 23 14:35
fewa	They want to control the hardware side of Linux through virtualization	Jul 23 14:35
schestowitz	Remember: it's PART OF THE DEAL WITH NOVEL	Jul 23 14:35
schestowitz	Look under "virtualization" [sic]	Jul 23 14:35
fewa	Xen + (now) HV	Jul 23 14:35
schestowitz	ALso VMware	Jul 23 14:35
schestowitz	Imagine people having to buy servers with SLES of Windows	Jul 23 14:35
schestowitz	Lenovo already does that	Jul 23 14:36
schestowitz	And you get Linux running under Windows	Jul 23 14:36
schestowitz	oiaohm: tonight should be good for Linux morale	Jul 23 14:36
schestowitz	Microsoft will spin somehow. DOn't let them get away with it	Jul 23 14:36
schestowitz	Also, don't expect them to use the "L" worl.	Jul 23 14:36
schestowitz	They'll blame economy\|small computers\|Bing 'investment\\|R&D (INNOVA~1) etc./	Jul 23 14:37
fewa	KVM-style virtualization: 1 device, 1 driver	Jul 23 14:44
fewa	coreboot also minimizes the BIOS so it doesnt require drivers xcept for RAM, CPU, and EEPROM	Jul 23 14:45
fewa	Linux drivers do the rest	Jul 23 14:45
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schestowitz	wallclimber: we finished a phase in Comes. Just need to post that last bunch o' 3	Jul 23 14:46
wallclimber	very good!	Jul 23 14:47
schestowitz	Then we can organise the Wiki beter	Jul 23 14:47
schestowitz	And I have some exec-ascribed exhibits	Jul 23 14:47
schestowitz	Progress was a lot faster than I imagined	Jul 23 14:47
wallclimber	I'm still reading the new BN articles for this morning	Jul 23 14:48
schestowitz	Are you still on Digg? Top 10 Most Dugg Stories on Digg < http://www.webpronews.com/topnews/2009/07/21/top-10-most-dugg-stories-on-digg >	Jul 23 14:49
schestowitz	Digg lost many people like me when their servers scaled badly.	Jul 23 14:49
schestowitz	Twitter is at risk of the same problem... pages load too slowly which puts people off for good	Jul 23 14:49
schestowitz	wallclimber: see the links. LOADS of catchup done.	Jul 23 14:49
wallclimber	I'm looking now	Jul 23 14:50
schestowitz	Tonight the big news shall come... from MSFT Corp.	Jul 23 14:50
schestowitz	Heh. Just quotes in CNET: "Roy Schestowitz, perhaps predictably, argued that Microsoft only did it because Linux can't be ignored. " < http://news.cnet.com/8301-13505_3-10293000-16.html >	Jul 23 14:51
schestowitz	*oted	Jul 23 14:53
wallclimber	I do check digg still, but I rarely stay there for long these days	Jul 23 14:53
schestowitz	Byfield reposted: http://www.linuxplanet.com/linuxplanet/reports/6801/1/	Jul 23 14:53
schestowitz	There is pro-Mono bias from him. He usually takes the opposite view from us, except KDE and some other things.	Jul 23 14:54
schestowitz	wallclimber: When someone posts a URL to Linux items from Digg I usually see the linsxxxxxxxxxxxxxx crowd there	Jul 23 14:55
schestowitz	BN comments are like mostly (>50%) from opposers of the site, too.	Jul 23 14:55
schestowitz	They dress themselves up and try to reverse the debate	Jul 23 14:55
wallclimber	"open source eats its young"??? lol wow. THAT'S a little hostile, for sure	Jul 23 14:55
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] Why 2024 Will Be Like Nineteen Eighty-Four < http://ping.fm/ZvDTu >		Jul 23 14:56
schestowitz	wallclimber: it goes way back	Jul 23 14:57
schestowitz	Asay and I don't agree on some things.	Jul 23 14:58
schestowitz	But we respect each other in a way. He's sensitive to criticism IMHO	Jul 23 14:58
wallclimber	he's one that tends more towards "open source" than "free software" - yes?	Jul 23 14:58
schestowitz	Yes, where open source also means Apple	Jul 23 14:59
MinceR	he's the one who pretends to be a FLOSS supporter while only supporting crApple	Jul 23 14:59
schestowitz	And he's a Chamberlain type.	Jul 23 14:59
wallclimber	lol...should I ever admit publically that i love apple stuff?	Jul 23 14:59
schestowitz	Having lunch with Mikysoft	Jul 23 14:59
MinceR	and crApple's FLOSS support is "we took all we wanted from you, now die"	Jul 23 15:00
MinceR	wallclimber: no, you should admit it to your psychiatrist and look for a solution	Jul 23 15:00
schestowitz	wallclimber: forget to buy apples this afternoon	Jul 23 15:00
schestowitz	*forgot	Jul 23 15:00
wallclimber	the reason is that I got a LOT of my most annoying friends and family (annoying regarding computer help) to buy Macs. I haven't had to help them since...so, i love macs	Jul 23 15:01
schestowitz	I like apple... when it fresh and red.	Jul 23 15:01
MinceR	ew	Jul 23 15:01
wallclimber	:)	Jul 23 15:01
MinceR	i like apple in juice and cookie form	Jul 23 15:01
MinceR	and in jam form	Jul 23 15:01
wallclimber	i like apple pie with ice cream	Jul 23 15:01
schestowitz	MinceR: that's gelatin.	Jul 23 15:01
MinceR	huh?	Jul 23 15:02
MinceR	not all gelatin has apple scent and taste :)	Jul 23 15:02
wallclimber	i've often wanted to throw rotten apples at my ex mother in law	Jul 23 15:02
schestowitz	You know who doesn't make substandard products? Philips	Jul 23 15:02
MinceR	they do too	Jul 23 15:02
schestowitz	I've had the same Philishave for like 10 years. No need for battery change either.	Jul 23 15:03
MinceR	they make writable optical media with its center of mass in the wrong place	Jul 23 15:03
MinceR	and headphones that are way too fragile to use	Jul 23 15:03
MinceR	now the philishave is nice stuff	Jul 23 15:03
MinceR	i have one too	Jul 23 15:03
schestowitz	MinceR: they put some apple portion in there	Jul 23 15:03
schestowitz	Like with those 'natural' orange juice	Jul 23 15:03
schestowitz	"May ACTAULLY contain REAL fruit"	Jul 23 15:04
MinceR	depends on the product	Jul 23 15:04
MinceR	i've had homemade apple jam	Jul 23 15:04
schestowitz	They always have preservatives	Jul 23 15:04
schestowitz	Some have acids	Jul 23 15:04
MinceR	apple naturally contains acids	Jul 23 15:04
schestowitz	Look what they got their OS	Jul 23 15:04
MinceR	way too much, in fact -- that's one of the reasons why i don't like it raw	Jul 23 15:04
schestowitz	Kids on acid	Jul 23 15:04
MinceR	that's an unrelated apple	Jul 23 15:04
schestowitz	j/K	Jul 23 15:05
schestowitz	[The BSD stereotype]	Jul 23 15:05
MinceR	i've heard jobs came up with the mac (or something) on LSD	Jul 23 15:05
schestowitz	Maybe	Jul 23 15:05
schestowitz	It was around that time	Jul 23 15:05
MinceR	perhaps that's how their products can be viewed as good-looking	Jul 23 15:05
MinceR	on acid.	Jul 23 15:05
schestowitz	I watched a program about it... on TV 2 weeks ago	Jul 23 15:05
schestowitz	About the Hippies	Jul 23 15:05
schestowitz	THey interviewed Woz there, too	Jul 23 15:05
wallclimber	hey, be careful what you say about hippies	Jul 23 15:06
MinceR	pft	Jul 23 15:06
schestowitz	wallclimber: why? I like em	Jul 23 15:06
wallclimber	that's my generation	Jul 23 15:06
wallclimber	: )	Jul 23 15:06
MinceR	i doubt those two have anything to do with hippies	Jul 23 15:06
schestowitz	They do	Jul 23 15:06
schestowitz	It's the Softers that ain't	Jul 23 15:06
MinceR	they're the same crap in different packaging	Jul 23 15:07
wallclimber	woz and jobs were university hippies - groovy man	Jul 23 15:07
schestowitz	The 'poor' spoiled Seattle kid and a nutter from Detroit, MI	Jul 23 15:07
schestowitz	Where's Allen from?..	Jul 23 15:07
schestowitz	wallclimber: yes.	Jul 23 15:07
schestowitz	They also built themselves based on this image IIRC	Jul 23 15:08
schestowitz	I think many programmers at the time were free thinkers	Jul 23 15:08
schestowitz	RMS came a lot later	Jul 23 15:08
MinceR	what has free thinking have to do with crApple?	Jul 23 15:08
schestowitz	A Hippie awoken after his time, maybe influenced by the CHomskies of MIT	Jul 23 15:08
MinceR	"do what jobs says/does" doesn't sound like "free thinking" to me at all	Jul 23 15:08
MinceR	s/does/wants/	Jul 23 15:08
schestowitz	THink Different	Jul 23 15:09
schestowitz	1984 ad...	Jul 23 15:09
schestowitz	Standing out fromt he crowd	Jul 23 15:09
MinceR	that's just propaganda	Jul 23 15:09
MinceR	none of it is true	Jul 23 15:09
schestowitz	As a fashion statement for the Benays propaganda industry to addres with diversity	Jul 23 15:09
schestowitz	*rnay	Jul 23 15:09
MinceR	even windows is more flexible than osx	Jul 23 15:10
schestowitz	iPhone comes in many colours	Jul 23 15:10
schestowitz	Oops. THat would be iPod	Jul 23 15:10
schestowitz	And Macs come in one 'edition'	Jul 23 15:10
schestowitz	And I never see anyone deviating fro Aqua/Bruished Metal	Jul 23 15:10
schestowitz	Not since 2002	Jul 23 15:10
wallclimber	lol okay, that's the last time i mention the words apple or mac here, even in jest	Jul 23 15:10
schestowitz	*Hehe. Brushed, not bruised metal	Jul 23 15:11
MinceR	well, afaik the tools that let you deviate from Brushed Metal/Drops of Water on Paper cost money	Jul 23 15:11
schestowitz	Yes	Jul 23 15:11
schestowitz	You can darken them	Jul 23 15:11
schestowitz	But the base is the same	Jul 23 15:11
MinceR	(it's funny that they couldn't decide which one to use)	Jul 23 15:11
schestowitz	Apple employs decent artists.. icons too	Jul 23 15:11
MinceR	i wouldn't call that look decent	Jul 23 15:12
schestowitz	It looks neat	Jul 23 15:12
schestowitz	But Linux has the same thing	Jul 23 15:12
MinceR	it looks Fisher-Pricey	Jul 23 15:12
schestowitz	And goes futher with desktop effects	Jul 23 15:12
schestowitz	MinceR: no, that Axe-Pee	Jul 23 15:12
MinceR	gnu/linux desktops look a lot better than either	Jul 23 15:12
MinceR	yes, xp/luna is Fisher-Price too	Jul 23 15:12
schestowitz	Many kids use WIndows	Jul 23 15:13
MinceR	and many kids use osx	Jul 23 15:13
schestowitz	Randing from 4 to ~ (inf	Jul 23 15:13
schestowitz	"Hi, I'm 4 and I use a PC"	Jul 23 15:13
schestowitz	*Guy walks into the office	Jul 23 15:13
schestowitz	I use Windows... and I'm proud... like that 4 -yo on telly.	Jul 23 15:14
schestowitz	That's how they advertise it	Jul 23 15:14
schestowitz	'Nichery'	Jul 23 15:14
schestowitz	ANd for Apple...	Jul 23 15:14
wallclimber	I just tell people that if they DON'T want to learn about their computers, to buy Macs, if they're willing to learn, use GNU/Linux. I'm glad Apple is available for people	Jul 23 15:14
schestowitz	If yuo're a businessman using it you're symbolised by some arrogant chap	Jul 23 15:14
schestowitz	But they did their market studies...	Jul 23 15:14
schestowitz	THey figures out rich young people would buy with this image in mind	Jul 23 15:15
schestowitz	wallclimber: Apple is glad bsd is available for people :-)	Jul 23 15:15
schestowitz	[And that it ain't advertised properly]	Jul 23 15:15
schestowitz	IBM+Linux is similar	Jul 23 15:16
schestowitz	"COme to us, you'll be safe. We have patents."	Jul 23 15:16
schestowitz	That's why many business would choose RHTIBM rather than Debian	Jul 23 15:16
wallclimber	so, what will be the ms news today? how will they spin it?	Jul 23 15:16
schestowitz	Not sure...	Jul 23 15:16
schestowitz	Last time they eclipsed Ubuntu release	Jul 23 15:16
MinceR	ubuntu works for those who don't want to learn	Jul 23 15:16
schestowitz	26th of April IIRC	Jul 23 15:17
schestowitz	They'll do it again in Oct.	Jul 23 15:17
MinceR	and someone knowledgeable can configure it for them if necessary	Jul 23 15:17
wallclimber	MinceR: no it doesn't	Jul 23 15:17
MinceR	and once the user decides he does want to learn, he can do so immediately under gnu/linux	Jul 23 15:17
MinceR	if he used crApple, he gets to throw it away and start over	Jul 23 15:17
schestowitz	Learn what?	Jul 23 15:17
MinceR	how to do more with IT	Jul 23 15:17
schestowitz	What do you need to learn in Ubuntu that yuo needn't learn in OS X	Jul 23 15:18
MinceR	personalize his environment, write scripts, etc.	Jul 23 15:18
schestowitz	Even installed s/w in Linux is easier	Jul 23 15:18
wallclimber	some learning is required for Macs too, it's just that new mac owners get help from Apple	Jul 23 15:18
schestowitz	PCLOS has Synaptic	Jul 23 15:18
schestowitz	wallclimber: ahh..	Jul 23 15:18
MinceR	you need to learn some computing to use a general-purpose computer fully	Jul 23 15:18
schestowitz	wallclimber: my grandpa keeps calling me	Jul 23 15:18
MinceR	wallclimber: and there's no IRC, there are no forums, no web, etc.	Jul 23 15:18
MinceR	i see	Jul 23 15:18
schestowitz	He wants me to sort out him hotmail issues	Jul 23 15:18
wallclimber	I'm too new myself to be helping impatient newbies to learn	Jul 23 15:18
schestowitz	Forgotten password	Jul 23 15:18
schestowitz	And question fallbacks too	Jul 23 15:18
schestowitz	He should harass Microsoft.	Jul 23 15:19
wallclimber	heck, i just figured out late last night that i can change from Gnome to KDE without installing a whole new system	Jul 23 15:19
wallclimber	lol - duh	Jul 23 15:19
MinceR	see, you're learning	Jul 23 15:19
schestowitz	They must be staring at the screens tonight like air control people at NASA watching the lander crashing on Mars	Jul 23 15:19
MinceR	also, you did something osx can't do	Jul 23 15:19
schestowitz	wallclimber: yeah, you could run 10 DEs	Jul 23 15:20
wallclimber	I just needed to get SOME people off my back every time they had a Windows problem	Jul 23 15:20
schestowitz	wallclimber: you can still run your gnome apps in kde	Jul 23 15:20
wallclimber	others, I've found are willing to learn along with me	Jul 23 15:20
MinceR	the windows problem is easy to solved	Jul 23 15:20
MinceR	basically bomb redmond. :>	Jul 23 15:20
schestowitz	gnome apps like tomb0i	Jul 23 15:20
MinceR	s/ved/ve/	Jul 23 15:20
schestowitz	MinceR: enough with the BC	Jul 23 15:21
schestowitz	You're harming the message	Jul 23 15:21
MinceR	pft	Jul 23 15:21
schestowitz	Evil smiley	Jul 23 15:21
MinceR	what's BC, btw?	Jul 23 15:21
schestowitz	Redmond can be used for good things	Jul 23 15:21
schestowitz	They can be used as a museum	Jul 23 15:21
schestowitz	How bad engineering is done	Jul 23 15:21
MinceR	yes, actually only One Microsoft Way needs to be turned into a crater :>	Jul 23 15:21
MinceR	or that	Jul 23 15:22
schestowitz	Security Response team... how to hide flaws.	Jul 23 15:22
*lefty_ (i=447ed9e6@gateway/web/freenode/x-a8e49893aeb16462) has joined #boycottnovell		Jul 23 15:22
MinceR	it could be the Museum of Bad Engineering	Jul 23 15:22
MinceR	oh, look what the wind brought in through the door	Jul 23 15:22
lefty_	hey, I was hoping that your licesning and IP expert, Mr. Goblin, would be around.	Jul 23 15:22
MinceR	and i was hoping that we won't get any trolls today	Jul 23 15:22
lefty_	I have some questions I'd like to ask him about his interpretation of the Microsoft submission.	Jul 23 15:23
MinceR	but we can't get everything we wish for, i guess	Jul 23 15:23
lefty_	Tough, pal.	Jul 23 15:23
lefty_	Learn to live with disappointment.	Jul 23 15:23
MinceR	maybe i'll have to	Jul 23 15:23
lefty_	Hey, did you know that Greg K-H works for _Novell_?	Jul 23 15:23
lefty_	Trust me on this, MinceR.	Jul 23 15:23
MinceR	any other _news_? :>	Jul 23 15:23
lefty_	This is the current event, MinceR.	Jul 23 15:24
lefty_	Look at the front page of the site.	Jul 23 15:24
MinceR	no, actually gregkh has been working for them for a while.	Jul 23 15:24
lefty_	This _is_ the news, or at least Roy thinks so.	Jul 23 15:24
lefty_	Yes, I'm well aware of that. I know Greg.	Jul 23 15:24
lefty_	But it's Goblin's legal expertise I'm really interested in.	Jul 23 15:25
MinceR	i don't think it's new for him either.	Jul 23 15:25
MinceR	why, your friends from redmond don't have enough legal expertise already?	Jul 23 15:25
lefty_	After all, Jose has already wondered out loud, in his equivocal fashion, whether Greg is a "Trojan".	Jul 23 15:25
lefty_	Oh, they've got plenty, but they're not particularly my friends, MinceR.	Jul 23 15:25
Trials	Hay Lefty, welcome back.	Jul 23 15:25
lefty_	Got some support for that statement, or did you just think it sounded good?	Jul 23 15:26
MinceR	employers, then?	Jul 23 15:26
lefty_	Sorry?	Jul 23 15:26
lefty_	Oh, I see.	Jul 23 15:26
lefty_	You're claiming I work for Microsoft.	Jul 23 15:26
lefty_	That's humorous.	Jul 23 15:26
MinceR	i expect your irc client has a buffer that you can read	Jul 23 15:26
lefty_	Stupid, but humorous.	Jul 23 15:26
lefty_	Got a pont?	Jul 23 15:26
MinceR	sorry, i guess i've sunk to your level for a moment.	Jul 23 15:26
lefty_	Uh huh.	Jul 23 15:27
lefty_	I haven't claimed that you work for Microsoft, even though you guys do more tomake FLOSS look bad than they do.	Jul 23 15:27
MinceR	then i guess it's my turn to ask for some support for that claim.	Jul 23 15:28
lefty_	I guess that means I haven't descended to your level.	Jul 23 15:28
MinceR	it's kind of difficult to descend upwards, yes.	Jul 23 15:28
lefty_	Go ask folks like Dave Neary, or Greg, or any of the folks on the GNOME Board what they thing of BN as a "news resource"	Jul 23 15:28
Trials	Support for what claim MinceR ?	Jul 23 15:28
lefty_	or of your advocacy.	Jul 23 15:28
MinceR	i don't really care what greg or any of your pals thinks.	Jul 23 15:28
lefty_	Look at the coments on my latest blog posting.	Jul 23 15:28
lefty_	I see. you don't care what the maintainers of the kernel think.	Jul 23 15:29
lefty_	_you_ know better.	Jul 23 15:29
MinceR	sorry, i didn't know only your pals mattered in the whole world.	Jul 23 15:29
MinceR	that's one or two maintainers	Jul 23 15:29
MinceR	who happen to work for novell	Jul 23 15:29
MinceR	so novell employees don't like that we expose their dirty dealings, what a shock.	Jul 23 15:30
MinceR	stop the presses.	Jul 23 15:30
Trials	what dirty dealings ?? compile the kernel ?	Jul 23 15:30
lefty_	Feel free to ask _any_ of them.	Jul 23 15:30
MinceR	look it up	Jul 23 15:30
lefty_	Are you accusing Greg K-H of "dirty dealings"?	Jul 23 15:31
Trials	you made the statement, I would expect you to back it up with you know,,, facts..	Jul 23 15:31
lefty_	Just want to be clear here.	Jul 23 15:31
MinceR	no, i'm accusing novell.	Jul 23 15:31
lefty_	Well, what's the relevsnce to this situation?	Jul 23 15:31
MinceR	and i'm afraid i'll have to accuse you of failing at reading comprehension.	Jul 23 15:31
lefty_	Novell doesn't maintain the kernel.	Jul 23 15:31
lefty_	you can accuse me of anything you like.	Jul 23 15:32
oiaohm	I class MS as desperate.	Jul 23 15:32
lefty_	I'm still not persuaded you have any idea what you're talking about.	Jul 23 15:32
oiaohm	Main reasons.	Jul 23 15:32
popey	MinceR: actually you said "novell employees don't like that we expose their dirty dealings" implying quite strongly that it was the novell employees who were doing the dirty dealings	Jul 23 15:32
lefty_	Indeed.	Jul 23 15:32
MinceR	lefty_: i won't try to persuade you against your religion.	Jul 23 15:32
lefty_	So, again: is Greg K-H involved in dirty dealings?	Jul 23 15:32
MinceR	popey: i've already clarified	Jul 23 15:32
Trials	what dirty dealings are you referring too ?	Jul 23 15:32
lefty_	What "religion" would that be, MinceR?	Jul 23 15:32
popey	ok	Jul 23 15:32
MinceR	lefty_: your irc client has a buffer. learn to use it.	Jul 23 15:32
lefty_	I'm a Buddhist, myself.	Jul 23 15:32
oiaohm	By releasing drivers in Linux has really made Linux appear to more hardware makers as a platform of interest.	Jul 23 15:33
lefty_	kiss my ass, Mincer.	Jul 23 15:33
Trials	IRC only buffers if you are loged on MinceR	Jul 23 15:33
MinceR	lefty_: is this the "polite debate" you've claimed to be doing?	Jul 23 15:33
MinceR	Trials: which he seems to be.	Jul 23 15:33
lefty_	That's on the site, there's no such rule in IRC.	Jul 23 15:33
Trials	look up your log please, and correct yourself.	Jul 23 15:33
oiaohm	MS has always wanted dominance lefty_	Jul 23 15:34
lefty_	So, when you guys get polite, I will, tooo.	Jul 23 15:34
MinceR	lefty_: i was polite, you weren't. so you've lost.	Jul 23 15:34
oiaohm	It has been documented in too many cases to be questioned lefty_	Jul 23 15:34
lefty_	So you say, oiaohm.	Jul 23 15:34
Trials	oiaohm, and they got that dominance as well. so ?	Jul 23 15:34
MinceR	Trials: what point are you trying to make?	Jul 23 15:35
lefty_	I'm talking specifically about the Hyper-V drivers.	Jul 23 15:35
oiaohm	Starts with sun back with SMB.	Jul 23 15:35
oiaohm	Again with intel in 2000 with Linux support.	Jul 23 15:35
oiaohm	Its a repeating theme.	Jul 23 15:35
lefty_	If the drivers are a trap, and given that Greg's taking them into the tree, is he a co-conspirator or a pawn?	Jul 23 15:35
oiaohm	MS has made a mistake.	Jul 23 15:35
oiaohm	Just they don't know it yet.	Jul 23 15:35
lefty_	Don't tell me your theory of history.	Jul 23 15:35
MinceR	lefty_: fallacy of no third option.	Jul 23 15:35
lefty_	Talk about this specific situation.	Jul 23 15:35
MinceR	though he's likely a co-conspirator of sorts.	Jul 23 15:36
oiaohm	They should read the patent agreement carefully.	Jul 23 15:36
MinceR	(being on novell payroll and all)	Jul 23 15:36
Trials	It's GPL'd code, that should be the end of the story.	Jul 23 15:36
MinceR	and yet it isn't the end of the story.	Jul 23 15:36
oiaohm	If lets say Linux builds a test case to test the hyper-v drivers.	Jul 23 15:36
Trials	should be	Jul 23 15:36
lefty_	Ok, thanks for clearting up your thinking on that, MinceR.	Jul 23 15:36
oiaohm	That just happens to allow Linux kernel to run windows contained.	Jul 23 15:36
lefty_	More evidence of how far out in left field you are.	Jul 23 15:36
Trials	unless you want to devalue the GPL	Jul 23 15:36
MinceR	my thinking has always been clear.	Jul 23 15:36
oiaohm	There is nothing MS can legal do now lefty_.	Jul 23 15:36
MinceR	Trials: it's not a silver bullet.	Jul 23 15:36
Trials	read the GPL, it in fact IS.	Jul 23 15:37
oiaohm	MS has done it for domination.	Jul 23 15:37
lefty_	who _cares_ waht it allows? _Greg_ doesn't mind.	Jul 23 15:37
oiaohm	But they have written there own doom.	Jul 23 15:37
MinceR	Trials: get a clue, it in fact isn't.	Jul 23 15:37
oiaohm	Greg is smart enough to know that.	Jul 23 15:37
lefty_	People _do_ run Linux, virtualized, on Server 2008 systems you know.	Jul 23 15:37
lefty_	A lot of them do.	Jul 23 15:37
MinceR	GPLv3 tries to help with the patent mess, but even that can't fix everything.	Jul 23 15:37
oiaohm	Lot don't lefty_	Jul 23 15:37
lefty_	GPL v3 is unusable in the kernel, and will always be.	Jul 23 15:37
oiaohm	For cost reasons and stablity.	Jul 23 15:37
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[davidgerard] just back from job int. went nicely. pint to hirez! here's to mates of mates ;-)		Jul 23 15:37
Trials	I can read the GPL just as well as you can, would you like me to cut and paste the relavent part for you to read, or would that make you look silly ?	Jul 23 15:38
MinceR	lefty_: or so you hope.	Jul 23 15:38
oiaohm	Never claim never lefty_	Jul 23 15:38
lefty_	I could do the same, Trials.	Jul 23 15:38
MinceR	Trials: are you a lawyer?	Jul 23 15:38
lefty_	MinceR you haven't got a clue what you're babbling about.	Jul 23 15:38
oiaohm	Linus as not ruled out conversion in future to GPLv3	Jul 23 15:38
oiaohm	Just he sees no need to do it now lefty_	Jul 23 15:38
lefty_	Do any of you understand section 7 of the GPL v 2?	Jul 23 15:38
Trials	It's not brain science	Jul 23 15:38
Trials	I do :)	Jul 23 15:38
MinceR	lefty_: do you?	Jul 23 15:39
lefty_	He's ruled it out for the foreseeable future.	Jul 23 15:39
oiaohm	If there were good enough alterations worth while changing Linux kernel to gplv3 Linus would do it lefty_	Jul 23 15:39
oiaohm	Some people are foolish in this reguard.	Jul 23 15:39
lefty_	That's an "if" the size of the Grand Canyon.	Jul 23 15:39
Trials	Linus does, greg does, I do and i can think of anyone else who	Jul 23 15:39
oiaohm	If you had been following the debate on gplv3 in the Linux mailing list you would no that. lefty_	Jul 23 15:39
lefty_	I figured you understood it, Trials.	Jul 23 15:39
Ng	oiaohm: http://lkml.org/lkml/2006/1/25/273	Jul 23 15:40
lefty_	I don't think any of these _other_ bozos, and that incliudes Goblin, do.	Jul 23 15:40
twitter	*** twitter ignores trolls lefty and Trails	Jul 23 15:40
oiaohm	That simple hole makes never impossiable lefty_	Jul 23 15:40
lefty_	How's that dossier coming, Lefty?	Jul 23 15:40
MinceR	now he's talking to himse.f	Jul 23 15:40
MinceR	s/\.f/lf./	Jul 23 15:40
lefty_	Sorry, that was directed at Mr. Hill.	Jul 23 15:41
oiaohm	Ng that is not the only argument on it.	Jul 23 15:41
lefty_	He's been collecting "as much information as he could find" on me.	Jul 23 15:41
oiaohm	You are looking for the 2007 one Ng	Jul 23 15:41
lefty_	I wondered if he needed help with that.	Jul 23 15:41
Trials	thats right gathering all the information he could on you lefty for Roy, I saw that	Jul 23 15:41
lefty_	So, oiaohm, want to explain how sect. 7 relates to this situation for me?	Jul 23 15:42
oiaohm	Where linus was asked if there could be any condition that would make GPLv3 conversion happen Ng.	Jul 23 15:42
lefty_	I wonder if they;d like to harass my manager a little more.	Jul 23 15:42
*twitter has quit ("Leaving.")		Jul 23 15:42
Trials	too hard basket	Jul 23 15:43
lefty_	that's a tangent, you certainly can't use GPL v3 in the kernel now.	Jul 23 15:43
lefty_	Man, what a coward that twit is.	Jul 23 15:43
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lefty_	Cut and run.	Jul 23 15:43
MinceR	strange, i had the impression that some parts were already v2/v3 dual-licensed or v2+-licensed	Jul 23 15:43
lefty_	Oh, hi, Willy.	Jul 23 15:43
lefty_	I just called you a coward for bailing out.	Jul 23 15:43
lefty_	That was wrong of me.	Jul 23 15:43
Ng	oiaohm: http://lkml.org/lkml/2007/6/20/223 he doesn't sound wildly positive there either ;)	Jul 23 15:44
lefty_	I sincerely apologize and will endeavor not to make such irresponsible statements again in the future.	Jul 23 15:44
MinceR	(by v2+ i mean 'v2 or later')	Jul 23 15:44
twitter	I'm on my way to work. I have set this one to ignore lefty, Trails and other tribulations too.	Jul 23 15:44
MinceR	:D	Jul 23 15:44
Trials	If you change the Kernel to V3 what is stopping you from changing to v4 or v5 or v6 depending on how Stallman feels or depending on whatever cause he is pushing now, that creates uncertainty in the industry, that FOSS can ill afford	Jul 23 15:44
lefty_	Willy, got questions you want to ask me for my dossier?	Jul 23 15:44
twitter	***twitter ignores trolls lefty and Trails	Jul 23 15:44
lefty_	My mom's address? My SSID?	Jul 23 15:44
lefty_	Credit rating?	Jul 23 15:45
lefty_	how convenient, WIlly.	Jul 23 15:45
oiaohm	That is part way threw Ng	Jul 23 15:45
lefty_	I guess "invasion of privacy" is all good fun, huh?	Jul 23 15:45
oiaohm	I never said the out come was possive.	Jul 23 15:45
MinceR	Trials: it depends on the decision of the copyright holders, as usual.	Jul 23 15:45
lefty_	Well, back to the Hyper-V submission.	Jul 23 15:45
oiaohm	End result conversion in case of need was not ruled out Ng.	Jul 23 15:45
*schestowitz gives channel operator status to MinceR		Jul 23 15:46
schestowitz	bbl	Jul 23 15:46
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lefty_	All 35,000 of them,, MinceR.	Jul 23 15:46
twitter	please don't feed that one MinceR. I don't like filtering through it all manually.	Jul 23 15:46
twitter	bbl	Jul 23 15:46
tacone	http://www.theregister.co.uk/2009/07/23/microsoft_hyperv_gpl_violation/	Jul 23 15:46
oiaohm	Like if Solaris coverted GPLv3 intergration option would be worth it Ng.	Jul 23 15:46
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lefty_	It's probably true. That doesn't change the current licensing status of those drivers, which is the Right THing.	Jul 23 15:47
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lefty_	As everyone, except the collective geniuses of Boycott Novell, agrees.	Jul 23 15:47
lefty_	I'm still not satisfied that you guys even understand the GPL.	Jul 23 15:48
MinceR	that's your problem, not ours.	Jul 23 15:48
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lefty_	I'd like to see a demonstration of that understanding.	Jul 23 15:48
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lefty_	Tell me how section 7 applies here.	Jul 23 15:48
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MinceR	consult your lawyer.	Jul 23 15:48
MinceR	you were bragging about taking legal action anyway	Jul 23 15:49
lefty_	There's a clue in the Preamble, if that helps you with your analysis.	Jul 23 15:49
Krenso	Hello	Jul 23 15:49
lefty_	Relevance?	Jul 23 15:49
MinceR	(or threatening)	Jul 23 15:49
lefty_	I'm still going to be taking legal action against Roy and this site.	Jul 23 15:49
oiaohm	There is a problem.	Jul 23 15:49
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thenixedreport	@lefty_: Go ahead.	Jul 23 15:49
MinceR	then you have a lawyer at hand.	Jul 23 15:49
thenixedreport	Don't just talk about it.	Jul 23 15:49
thenixedreport	Do it!	Jul 23 15:49
lefty_	(Yes, "boycottnovel.com" will be named as a defendant)	Jul 23 15:50
Trials	MinceR i think he was (rightly) implying that mabey you do not understand the GPl and the protection it offers.	Jul 23 15:50
MinceR	hat domain isn't even registered.	Jul 23 15:50
lefty_	I'm in the process of doing it right now.	Jul 23 15:50
MinceR	Trials: and i think that maybe you shouldn't be so sure about your ideas of what it can and can't do.	Jul 23 15:50
Trials	I think mabey you dont want too believe it becfause it does not help your "bias" against MS or Nevell	Jul 23 15:50
oiaohm	Does Roy have the documents to prove that you being a turfer by MS be rightly suspected. Answer yes lefty_.	Jul 23 15:50
wallclimber	(Trials is the old Mutex, I'm pretty sure)	Jul 23 15:50
oiaohm	So go ahead.	Jul 23 15:50
lefty_	thanks for the typo flame, none.	Jul 23 15:50
MinceR	Trials: and there are issues beyond licensing.	Jul 23 15:50
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oiaohm	Most you can get is a public sorry. lefty_	Jul 23 15:51
lefty_	Anyone want to share their GPL expertise?	Jul 23 15:51
Trials	Sorry MinceR but I can read the GPL and I have, would you like a lesson on it ?	Jul 23 15:51
lefty_	Trials and I are, I think, dying to hear all about it.	Jul 23 15:51
Krenso	have you read this http://www.reddit.com/r/linux/comments/93nc6/could_we_get_this_spammer_blocked_please/	Jul 23 15:51
oiaohm	GPL v2 does not cover patents explicically lefty_	Jul 23 15:51
Krenso	There should be some change	Jul 23 15:52
Trials	Really oiaohm, are you sure ??	Jul 23 15:52
oiaohm	Reason why major submits to the Linux kernel by a company require a extra document lefty_.	Jul 23 15:52
Krenso	how aarticles are promoted on the web	Jul 23 15:52
oiaohm	I am sure Trials	Jul 23 15:52
MinceR	Trials: i'd like a lesson on it from someone who has a clue, not someone who only has a big mouth.	Jul 23 15:52
oiaohm	GPLv2 was written before the wide use of software patents.	Jul 23 15:52
lefty_	Is that so, oiaohm? You know something everybody else doeesn't.	Jul 23 15:52
Trials	so if I sent you the relavent section of the GPLv2 that covers patent encumbered code you would say its not true ?	Jul 23 15:53
MinceR	peer-reviewed independent analysises would be even better.	Jul 23 15:53
lefty_	No, Trials, he wouldn't.	Jul 23 15:53
oiaohm	Yes realy why MS had to give a public statement on that they would not push patents over the submited drivers.	Jul 23 15:53
lefty_	He'd ignore it, or spout the same sort of nonsense we've been seeing.	Jul 23 15:53
lefty_	Ir tell you that you have a "big mouth".	Jul 23 15:53
lefty_	Maybe all of the above.	Jul 23 15:54
MinceR	Trials: if you believe that only the literal text of the license in itself is enough to fully understand its legal consequences then i don't think i need to hear about anything more from you. :>	Jul 23 15:54
oiaohm	Its part of the normal submit process IBM had to do the same thing when they did a large submit to the linux kernel.	Jul 23 15:54
Trials	with a name like OHM he's bound to have some resistance	Jul 23 15:54
lefty_	Well,MinceR, that shows your ignorance.	Jul 23 15:54
oiaohm	Linux kernel has internal policies on top of there licence lefty_	Jul 23 15:54
MinceR	oiaohm: did they give that public statement already	Jul 23 15:54
MinceR	lefty_: actually it shows yours.	Jul 23 15:54
lefty_	The literal text of the license is absolutely the only part a judge would pay attention to.	Jul 23 15:54
MinceR	here's a hint: there are laws you can't override at all in any sort of agreement or license.	Jul 23 15:55
oiaohm	MS has given the required public statement on the hyper-v drivers.	Jul 23 15:55
Ng	oiaohm: IANAL, but GPL-2 clearly mentions patents in more than one section?	Jul 23 15:55
Trials	certainly not "politics" or "morals"	Jul 23 15:55
lefty_	Oh, MinceR? How?	Jul 23 15:55
Trials	Ng yes it does, im glad you can read too.	Jul 23 15:55
lefty_	You _do_ know that I;'m recognized as being an expert in open source and free software licensing.	Jul 23 15:55
MinceR	probably all legal systems know the concept of "inalienable rights", for example.	Jul 23 15:55
lefty_	At least I hope you do.	Jul 23 15:55
MinceR	lefty_: i don't and you aren't making a good impression.	Jul 23 15:56
oiaohm	Note I said before software patents.	Jul 23 15:56
oiaohm	Not before hardware patents.	Jul 23 15:56
oiaohm	There are issues with wordings of those sections.	Jul 23 15:56
lefty_	Well, I'm a member of the FSF-Europe Legal and Licensing Network, MinceR.	Jul 23 15:56
lefty_	Invitiation-only group.	Jul 23 15:56
Trials	I can see lefty has displayed considerable balance and knowledge	Jul 23 15:56
lefty_	All lawyers, except for me.	Jul 23 15:56
MinceR	lefty_: and you can show proof of it too, right?	Jul 23 15:56
oiaohm	It would be nice if someone would take GPLv2 into court and end some of the grey.	Jul 23 15:57
lefty_	What are your credentials, MinceR?	Jul 23 15:57
Krenso	is lefty_ david "lefty" from gnome foundation?	Jul 23 15:57
Trials	yes	Jul 23 15:57
MinceR	lefty_: i didn't claim to be a legal expert, you did.	Jul 23 15:57
MinceR	lefty_: my credentials won't help prove your claims.	Jul 23 15:57
oiaohm	Issue with GPLv2 is since is create is pre software patents.	Jul 23 15:57
lefty_	Yes, it is Lefty, but I'm not "from the GNOME FOundation".	Jul 23 15:57
lefty_	I'm on the Ad Board.	Jul 23 15:57
oiaohm	Can its patent wording apply to latter invention.	Jul 23 15:57
lefty_	But that's irrelevant here, I don't represent them.	Jul 23 15:58
oiaohm	Ie latter invention software patents.	Jul 23 15:58
oiaohm	It might apply or it might not.	Jul 23 15:58
lefty_	A patent is a patent, oiaohm.	Jul 23 15:58
lefty_	there's no distinction in the law, as prosecution goes, of software vs. non-software patents.	Jul 23 15:58
MinceR	depends on the country :>	Jul 23 15:59
oiaohm	That is what the hoped outcome would be lefty_	Jul 23 15:59
oiaohm	And yes it does depend on country too lefty_	Jul 23 15:59
lefty_	MinceR, you can write Adriaan de Groot or Shane Michael Coughlan and ask them.	Jul 23 15:59
oiaohm	Its just a shade of grey until its tested.	Jul 23 15:59
Trials	and yes a patent wording can be applied to a new invention, thats what a patent is, but if the "new invention" is based on the patent "wording" its not a new invention by definition, its a copy of someone elses patent.	Jul 23 15:59
MinceR	lefty_: i don't know their credentials either	Jul 23 15:59
MinceR	lefty_: i don't even know if they exist. :>	Jul 23 15:59
MinceR	but i guess citing a few names is supposed to be proof. :>	Jul 23 16:00
lefty_	_What_ depends on country? Wheher the Hyper-V drivers should be accepted into the driver tree?	Jul 23 16:00
lefty_	What are you saying?	Jul 23 16:00
Trials	the GPL is not a strong license, its mainly based on copyright law that contract law	Jul 23 16:00
oiaohm	Hyper-v has a statement overing the patents.	Jul 23 16:00
MinceR	171834 < lefty_> there's no distinction in the law, as prosecution goes, of software vs. non-software patents.	Jul 23 16:00
MinceR	that, for example.	Jul 23 16:00
oiaohm	So its not a issue.	Jul 23 16:00
lefty_	I stand by that.	Jul 23 16:01
oiaohm	Issue is does Linux really need hyper-v supporting drivers.	Jul 23 16:01
lefty_	show me the exception you claim.	Jul 23 16:01
MinceR	i'm not sure about the hyper-v thing at all.	Jul 23 16:01
Ng	what is the actual issue here? Microsoft setting up a patent trap by putting their drivers into Linux and then saying "aha! they violate our patents!"?	Jul 23 16:01
MinceR	for example, why add paravirtualization support that's specific to one product	Jul 23 16:01
oiaohm	No patent trap MinceR	Jul 23 16:01
MinceR	looks like design that would be normally frowned upon.	Jul 23 16:01
oiaohm	Ms has already released the statement preventing that.	Jul 23 16:01
lefty_	THat seems to be the claim they're heading toward, Ng.	Jul 23 16:01
MinceR	and i thought linux had paravirtualization support for xen already	Jul 23 16:01
Trials	minceR thats right, as there is no distinction between software patents and "normal" patents. they are just patents, whats more its the law of the day you have to abide by the existing laws no matter how much you dont like them.	Jul 23 16:01
MinceR	so whe not use that?	Jul 23 16:01
oiaohm	As they were required to do by Linux kernel submiting policy.	Jul 23 16:01
Trials	or think they should be reformed	Jul 23 16:02
Ng	perhaps I missed the start of the argument, but I really can't see what the point you're debating is	Jul 23 16:02
lefty_	I know that oiaohm.	Jul 23 16:02
MinceR	Trials: afaik in the EU there are no software patents, legally. i'd say that's a pretty strong distinction.	Jul 23 16:02
MinceR	s/whe /why /	Jul 23 16:02
oiaohm	Incorrect on the no difference between software and normal patents.	Jul 23 16:02
lefty_	because it's an important product, one which is widely used in virtualizing Linux globally, MinceR?	Jul 23 16:02
lefty_	Just guessin'.	Jul 23 16:02
oiaohm	Problem here in Australia they are differnet legal documents.	Jul 23 16:02
*pk is now known as PeterKraus		Jul 23 16:02
MinceR	lefty_: that doesn't answer the question.	Jul 23 16:02
Trials	NG there is no point, the argument is about GPLv2 covering patents, as you said it does.	Jul 23 16:02
lefty_	presumably the differences are to account for Oz law, and the net effect is the same.	Jul 23 16:03
lefty_	the boys here are skeptical, Ng.	Jul 23 16:03
fewa	geeze yahoo answers is a zoo, so many people trying to pitch their AV warez for WIndows, and voting you down if you suggest Linux to an exasperated Windows user	Jul 23 16:03
lefty_	they think the whole kernel needs to go GPL 3 to avoid problems.	Jul 23 16:03
Trials	MinceR yes, mabey that is true in the EU, that does not stop software patents from being applied there, is not TOMTOM from the EU ?	Jul 23 16:03
oiaohm	Also mp3 patents would not exist if gplv2 was enforacable against software patents.	Jul 23 16:03
lefty_	or so it seems.	Jul 23 16:03
MinceR	lefty_: well, sorry for not taking the word of someone who rushes in trolling, threatening and disparaging as the authority of truth.	Jul 23 16:04
oiaohm	There is a problem no one has been prepaired to test it lefty_.	Jul 23 16:04
lefty_	Indeed, Trials. It depends on where you sell the allegedly infringing device, not where the company's based.	Jul 23 16:04
MinceR	Trials: iirc there was a quote from ballmer regarding that they still register sw patents because they can't tell the difference.	Jul 23 16:04
Trials	MinceR what "untruth" has he said ?	Jul 23 16:04
MinceR	Trials: don't make me list that. :>	Jul 23 16:04
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[davidgerard] "Technical support should never be necessary" - a laudable goal, but, uhm. http://is.gd/1J0d3		Jul 23 16:04
lefty_	I was wondering that,too.	Jul 23 16:05
fewa	indeed, the united states will scare away all the companies who develop and improve computing	Jul 23 16:05
MinceR	also, i didn't say it was "untruth", i said that it needed more support/proof.	Jul 23 16:05
fewa	by forcing them out of business with software patents	Jul 23 16:05
lefty_	I'd suggest that I'm not the troll here....	Jul 23 16:05
Trials	and as the US is the biggest market and they have software patents, they are basically international.	Jul 23 16:05
lefty_	just the guiy asking very inconvenient questions.	Jul 23 16:05
MinceR	lefty_: just like any troll would. :>	Jul 23 16:05
lefty_	exactly right, Trials.	Jul 23 16:05
Krenso	Lefty_, i'm suprised you are here.	Jul 23 16:05
MinceR	i'd like to see which part of "kiss my ass" is considered an "inconvenient question"	Jul 23 16:06
lefty_	Why, are you surprised, Krenso?	Jul 23 16:06
oiaohm	The question with GPLv2 is time. Ie now can a contract apply to rules that did not exist when it was created.	Jul 23 16:06
lefty_	The part where you're an insolent bitch, MinceR. Happy now?	Jul 23 16:06
oiaohm	That is a nice grey section of contract law that has never been tested.	Jul 23 16:06
MinceR sets ban on !*=447ed9e6@gateway/web/freenode/x-a8e49893aeb16462		Jul 23 16:06
*MinceR has kicked lefty_ from #boycottnovell (that's enough, then.)		Jul 23 16:06
Trials	the contract IS the rules oiaohm	Jul 23 16:06
MinceR	i think lefty really doesn't get what "polite" means.	Jul 23 16:07
fewa	Trials, where is the consideration?	Jul 23 16:07
*lefty_ (i=447ed9e6@gateway/web/freenode/x-ecabb2071dab97be) has joined #boycottnovell		Jul 23 16:07
lefty_	buncha cowards.	Jul 23 16:07
wallclimber	MinceR: Yay!	Jul 23 16:07
MinceR sets ban on !*=447ed9e6@gateway/web/freenode/x-ecabb2071dab97be		Jul 23 16:07
*MinceR has kicked lefty_ from #boycottnovell (ban evasion)		Jul 23 16:07
oiaohm	It is the rules but how those rules can be applied to other rules created latter are a legal black hole.	Jul 23 16:07
oiaohm	Some cases say yes it can.	Jul 23 16:07
oiaohm	Other cases say no it cannot.	Jul 23 16:07
*lefty_ (i=447ed9e6@gateway/web/freenode/x-db1d0bccf0f71025) has joined #boycottnovell		Jul 23 16:08
MinceR sets ban on !?=447ed9e6@*		Jul 23 16:08
oiaohm	Inside the usa it self.	Jul 23 16:08
*MinceR has kicked lefty_ from #boycottnovell (ban evasion)		Jul 23 16:08
MinceR removes ban on !*=447ed9e6@gateway/web/freenode/x-a8e49893aeb16462		Jul 23 16:08
oiaohm	So gplv2 is basically grey on patents until someone puts it before a court and its test cased.	Jul 23 16:08
MinceR removes ban on !*=447ed9e6@gateway/web/freenode/x-ecabb2071dab97be		Jul 23 16:08
oiaohm	Hopefully it goes the way we want.	Jul 23 16:08
MinceR	i wonder if lefty will start demonstrating what the ip range he can access is. :>	Jul 23 16:09
schestowitz	`Plot thickens in the case of Apple worker 'suicide' < http://www.theinquirer.net/inquirer/news/1469213/plot-thickens-apple-worker-suicide >	Jul 23 16:10
wallclimber	I dunno, they seem a little like cockroaches, they always seem to find a way in	Jul 23 16:10
schestowitz	"Foxconn has said that it has suspended a security official after the death of a Chinese worker.	Jul 23 16:10
schestowitz	Sun Danyong, 25, reported a missing Iphone 4G phone prototype and was beaten by Foxconn employees who were terrified of the wrath of Steve Jobs."	Jul 23 16:10
oiaohm	Trials: I wish things in USA contract law were pure black and white and judges over time had not cause contradictions.	Jul 23 16:10
Krenso	lefty_, i'm suprised that you are here so long without being kicked. Your opionions are quite opposite to that of BN community	Jul 23 16:12
Trials	few laws are black and write, thats why people create contracts and more laws. if your hoping for less laws I have my doubts that will happen.	Jul 23 16:12
MinceR	it's not a matter of opinion	Jul 23 16:12
MinceR	and he isn't here.	Jul 23 16:12
Trials	yes, bye bye free speech.	Jul 23 16:12
oiaohm	Basically gplv2 would be fine if the time issue did not exist Trials	Jul 23 16:12
fewa	Trials, laws need to be clear, and then the grey space filled with rational thought	Jul 23 16:13
oiaohm	And did not require a court case to sort it out or a change of licence.	Jul 23 16:13
Trials	Time issue ?	Jul 23 16:13
MinceR	Trials: yes, if trolling and being impolite are the only thing you can use them for.	Jul 23 16:13
*PeterKraus has quit ("Leaving")		Jul 23 16:13
MinceR	Trials: also, you can still speak freely elsewhere	Jul 23 16:13
Trials	The GPL is a written contract, its posted everywhere and it is clear.	Jul 23 16:13
popey	Krenso: is it the case that anyone who has opposing views should not be here or will be kicked?	Jul 23 16:13
oiaohm	Different judges over time have ruled different on latter created laws and contracts.	Jul 23 16:13
MinceR	you can even start your own channel, your own website.	Jul 23 16:13
Trials	MinceR not the same thing,	Jul 23 16:13
oiaohm	Some judges have rules that contract applies to the new created laws. Some have ruled it don't.	Jul 23 16:13
MinceR	Trials: it doesn't mean we have to listen to your trolling and slurs.	Jul 23 16:13
MinceR	Trials: it doesn't mean we have to let you obstruct discussion here with threadcrapping.	Jul 23 16:14
oiaohm	So USA contract law is nicely screwed up because of it Trials	Jul 23 16:14
Trials	It also does not mean we have to expect someone to "filter" what is being said, because you dont agree with it.	Jul 23 16:14
Krenso	I don't want to /kick anybody, but after lefty_ blog posts it seems weird that he is tolerated here	Jul 23 16:15
tacone	it was about more about the offences	Jul 23 16:15
MinceR	Trials: also, in a likewise manner, BN (or any other website) isn't obligated to publish whatever you want to publish there by some sort of twisted notion of "free speech".	Jul 23 16:15
oiaohm	GPLv3 is fine because it was latter created.	Jul 23 16:15
tacone	he doesn't seem able to stay polite	Jul 23 16:15
oiaohm	So time issue does not apply Trials.	Jul 23 16:15
MinceR	Krenso: schestowitz wanted to keep him around	Jul 23 16:15
tacone	otherwise it would have been kicked before.	Jul 23 16:15
popey	Krenso: ah, ok, i thought you were implying that _anyone_ with opposing views was not welcome.	Jul 23 16:16
oiaohm	Now here is the kicker. If GPLv2 gets ruled protecting against software patents. So might MIT licence have to be.	Jul 23 16:16
schestowitz	Trials: people used this channel not only to troll but also lie about me and intimidate. THis is not acceptable, sorry.	Jul 23 16:16
Trials	It does seem that way	Jul 23 16:16
Trials	was lefty lying and intimidating you ?	Jul 23 16:16
schestowitz	Yes	Jul 23 16:17
Trials	ok	Jul 23 16:17
schestowitz	That's not fair	Jul 23 16:17
schestowitz	Respect is a mutual thing.	Jul 23 16:17
oiaohm	On software licences and patents and the time issue there has not been a test case.	Jul 23 16:17
Trials	ill have to re read the logs, but I thought he was talking about the GPL and not you	Jul 23 16:17
MinceR	Trials: he made threats of suing schestowitz, iirc (earlier)	Jul 23 16:17
schestowitz	Also by mail	Jul 23 16:18
Trials	but not now and here at some other time.	Jul 23 16:18
schestowitz	He should learn to be a gentleman	Jul 23 16:18
MinceR	Trials: he did start doing it here and now, too	Jul 23 16:18
oiaohm	Its also how enforcable GPL is.	Jul 23 16:18
oiaohm	Very few people have dared test it in court.	Jul 23 16:18
Trials	im reading the log, trying to find it ..	Jul 23 16:18
schestowitz	That's beside the point anyway. We're being distracted by all this.	Jul 23 16:19
oiaohm	So we don't really know how much damage it can do.	Jul 23 16:19
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schestowitz	I don't want to talk about people...	Jul 23 16:19
schestowitz	Let's talk ideas.	Jul 23 16:19
oiaohm	BSD was down right scary when it was court tested Trials	Jul 23 16:19
oiaohm	Novel with BSD could not pay in cash.	Jul 23 16:19
oiaohm	They had to pay in code and permiate assests.	Jul 23 16:20
schestowitz	Rememeber when someone asked about mysql downtime yesterday?	Jul 23 16:20
schestowitz	http://www.theregister.co.uk/2009/07/22/mysql_sites_down/ Outage	Jul 23 16:20
schestowitz	9:30GMT or so Microsoft will post results	Jul 23 16:21
schestowitz	The 'big' press will publish distractions	Jul 23 16:21
schestowitz	Because of the Microsoft PR	Jul 23 16:21
oiaohm	The time issue is really simple to over look Trials.	Jul 23 16:21
schestowitz	We need to delve into earnings and post that ASAP to beat the PR/difufsion to it	Jul 23 16:21
schestowitz	I wonder...	Jul 23 16:22
schestowitz	COuld VIsta 7 RTM be related to tonight's results?	Jul 23 16:22
schestowitz	COuld they time it so as to intersect and allow them to say, "yes, it's down sharply, but the 'best os ever' is out realsoonnow(R)"	Jul 23 16:23
*oiaohm has quit (Remote closed the connection)		Jul 23 16:23
schestowitz	Oracle has big flaws now. So much for security by obscurity...	Jul 23 16:24
Ng	schestowitz: it could be related to being released in 3 months ;)	Jul 23 16:25
schestowitz	http://www.reghardware.co.uk/2009/07/23/review_electronic_book_irex_digtal_reader_dr1000s/ <--Linux based	Jul 23 16:25
schestowitz	Ng: well, dug	Jul 23 16:25
schestowitz	*duh, but it's not carved in stone	Jul 23 16:25
schestowitz	They could make RTM on Monday	Jul 23 16:25
schestowitz	You'll see the pitch	Jul 23 16:26
Ng	sure, it's pretty normal to try to bunch up press releases over a few days to try to stay in the headlines	Jul 23 16:26
schestowitz	See the video here: http://boycottnovell.com/2009/07/21/msft-attitude/	Jul 23 16:26
schestowitz	He mentioned just ONE product.	Jul 23 16:26
schestowitz	Ng: yes, but they organise them	Jul 23 16:27
schestowitz	THey make strategic timing happen. Always	Jul 23 16:27
schestowitz	"When to release bad news..." How to p00p on someone party (E.g. GOoogle Wave announcment..)	Jul 23 16:27
schestowitz	This is how it's done. Watch COmes documents...	Jul 23 16:27
schestowitz	*someone's	Jul 23 16:27
wallclimber	I think Win7 release was purposely pushed up to October to drown out the Koala	Jul 23 16:28
wallclimber	wasn't 7 originally set to come out in 2010?	Jul 23 16:29
schestowitz	Microsoft to post 4Q results after market closes < http://www.businessweek.com/ap/financialnews/D99K3VV81.htm > "AFTER..."	Jul 23 16:29
schestowitz	They drop it like they exit the scene of the crime	Jul 23 16:29
schestowitz	Novell threw out the embarrassing docs to investors just before Easter 2007	Jul 23 16:30
schestowitz	People were on vacation, so not many bothered to look	Jul 23 16:30
schestowitz	Novell document dump makes it look like a scandal < http://blogs.zdnet.com/open-source/?p=1082 >	Jul 23 16:30
schestowitz	Shane and I said the same	Jul 23 16:30
schestowitz	wallclimber: no, not 2010	Jul 23 16:31
schestowitz	That would make it more polished	Jul 23 16:31
schestowitz	A standard too high for Mcirosoft Windows	Jul 23 16:31
schestowitz	They need Service Perks [sic]	Jul 23 16:31
Ng	don't people generally post results after the close of the market?	Jul 23 16:31
Ng	apple did the other day	Jul 23 16:31
fewa	meh its just Vista 7	Jul 23 16:32
wallclimber	hmm, i thought I'd read that 7 was originally scheduled for release in early 2010	Jul 23 16:32
schestowitz	LHC delayed again.. "Leaks have been found in the vacuum of the Large Hadron Collider's insulating layer, causing yet another postponement of its restart from October to November." http://www.theregister.co.uk/2009/07/23/lhc_delay_to_november/	Jul 23 16:32
schestowitz	AT least it's just gasl. Not their Linux PCs there...	Jul 23 16:32
schestowitz	Ng: some do	Jul 23 16:32
schestowitz	Had it been routine, it would not be worth headlines]	Jul 23 16:33
schestowitz	Midday is possib;e	Jul 23 16:33
schestowitz	"The same factors depressed Microsoft's earnings in the two previous quarters. In January, after a weak holiday season, Microsoft resorted to its first companywide layoffs.'	Jul 23 16:34
schestowitz	They already lowered forecasts	Jul 23 16:34
schestowitz	So they can say something like, "Woah! Look at us! We beat the forecast" But that's decoy	Jul 23 16:34
schestowitz	Another is to ignore profitability and talk about revenue, which can include borrowings, AFAIK	Jul 23 16:35
*Omar87 (n=omar@79.173.214.123.go.com.jo) has joined #boycottnovell		Jul 23 16:36
Omar87	Hi guys.	Jul 23 16:36
Omar87	Did you Dell give up on Linux already?	Jul 23 16:36
*wallclimber has quit ("Ex-Chat")		Jul 23 16:36
schestowitz	I've seen their tricks for a while. Here is the report from july 2008: http://boycottnovell.com/2008/07/20/microsoft-quarterly-results/	Jul 23 16:36
schestowitz	Omar87: no, lie	Jul 23 16:36
schestowitz	They change models	Jul 23 16:36
MinceR	has dell ever really been _for_ linux?	Jul 23 16:36
schestowitz	THe Astrosofters seem to claim something else. Dell denies.. and McKenzie said the same here the other day	Jul 23 16:37
schestowitz	Dell is crumbling	Jul 23 16:37
fewa	Omar87, http://www.dell.com/content/topics/segtopic.aspx/linux_3x?c=us&cs=19&l=en&s=dhs	Jul 23 16:37
MinceR	i guess they could have been until some suits arrived from m$ and had a little discussion of licensing fees	Jul 23 16:37
Ng	MinceR: define "for linux"?	Jul 23 16:37
MinceR	schestowitz: literally.	Jul 23 16:37
MinceR	at least my dell laptop is.	Jul 23 16:37
MinceR	Ng: acting for the success of gnu/linux and for supporting its users.	Jul 23 16:37
Ng	MinceR: like encouraging hardware makers to provide better drivers for linux?	Jul 23 16:38
MinceR	like that	Jul 23 16:38
schestowitz	Not literally	Jul 23 16:38
Ng	MinceR: then yes, they have :)	Jul 23 16:38
schestowitz	He's only in his 50s I think	Jul 23 16:38
MinceR	and like providing viable alternatives to paying the m$ tax	Jul 23 16:38
MinceR	letting customers to not pay one dollar to m$ while getting dell hardware.	Jul 23 16:38
MinceR	of their choice.	Jul 23 16:39
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schestowitz	For a decent price	Jul 23 16:39
Ng	well their linux support has been expanding across their hardware range	Jul 23 16:39
schestowitz	No preinstalled junk	Jul 23 16:39
schestowitz	Ng: true.	Jul 23 16:39
MinceR	Ng: also it would be nice if they didn't hide their linux models, especially outside the US.	Jul 23 16:39
MinceR	then again it doesn't matter for me, since i've had enough of their "roadready" build quality.	Jul 23 16:40
Ng	sure, parity across geographic regions would be nice from all of the OEMs	Jul 23 16:40
Ng	HP only have one model of their Mini Mi netbook here in the UK and it's a fashion version that comes with a designer handbag ;)	Jul 23 16:40
MinceR	which was supposed to stand even "the most extreme" physical usage yet it broke from normal everyday use.	Jul 23 16:40
Ng	but a thinkpad :)	Jul 23 16:42
Ng	-t+y	Jul 23 16:42
schestowitz	Obama Backs Off August Health Care Deadline < http://abcnews.go.com/Politics/story?id=8154188&page=1 >	Jul 23 16:42
schestowitz	They still bet for insurance companies and private power. Shameful. Most important subject int he eyes of US citizens	Jul 23 16:43
MinceR	i've bought a thinkpad recently	Jul 23 16:43
MinceR	2 weeks ago, iirc	Jul 23 16:43
Ng	they rock, and the linux support tends to be excellent	Jul 23 16:43
Ng	if unofficial	Jul 23 16:43
schestowitz	Now you just need to find the "think" :-)	Jul 23 16:43
MinceR	so far it seems nice.	Jul 23 16:43
Ng	which one did you get?	Jul 23 16:43
MinceR	(but for that much money it had better be :> )	Jul 23 16:44
Ng	it would take some kind of epic shift in laptop hardware for me to leave the Thinkpad X series :)	Jul 23 16:44
MinceR	i prefer the W series :)	Jul 23 16:45
schestowitz	Since when does /. put images in the FP? http://linux.slashdot.org/article.pl?sid=09/07/22/0424210	Jul 23 16:46
MinceR	they've been doing it for a while	Jul 23 16:47
MinceR	occasionally	Jul 23 16:47
schestowitz	omg ponies	Jul 23 16:49
MinceR	for pony!	Jul 23 16:49
MinceR	it's sad that lenovo supports m$ FUD nowadays	Jul 23 16:50
MinceR	and provides no way around the m$ tax	Jul 23 16:50
schestowitz	Hahah: http://www.blogicalthoughts.com/images/signs/991_signs.jpg	Jul 23 16:50
MinceR	lol	Jul 23 16:51
schestowitz	yes, Microsoft took Lenovo from IBM	Jul 23 16:51
schestowitz	Metaphorically speaking of course	Jul 23 16:51
fewa	Ng, thunderbird cant seem to handle my large archive folder	Jul 23 16:55
schestowitz	Forget Clickthrough EULAs; Are There Really Walkby EULAs For NYC Parks? http://www.techdirt.com/articles/20090721/0408485607.shtml	Jul 23 16:56
fewa	geeze	Jul 23 17:00
fewa	what has the world come to	Jul 23 17:00
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] "UK cops threaten to bust woman who videos her boyfriend's search on terrorism charges " http://ping.fm/xdqyP		Jul 23 17:00
fewa	" Kataphraktos	Jul 23 17:04
fewa	[#226]	Jul 23 17:04
fewa	Wow, the Shake Shack menu really has grown up. In a Macaulay Culkin kind of way."	Jul 23 17:04
schestowitz	Omar87: see update in http://www.thevarguy.com/2009/07/22/dell-no-longer-selling-ubuntu-linux-desktop-pcs/	Jul 23 17:05
schestowitz	"UPDATE, July 23, 8:42 a.m. eastern: ComputerWorld reported on July 9 that Dell was sticking with Ubuntu desktops and simply refreshing the PC line. But as of today, the new offering has yet to debut on Dell’s web site."	Jul 23 17:05
fewa	what FUD	Jul 23 17:06
schestowitz	Gamer Says Sony Violated His 1st Amendment Rights By Banning Him < http://techdirt.com/articles/20090723/0241165629.shtml > <--- Sounds like some of our trolls	Jul 23 17:06
schestowitz	Civility is important	Jul 23 17:06
*ThistleWeb (n=gordon@87.113.3.160.plusnet.pte-ag1.dyn.plus.net) has joined #boycottnovell		Jul 23 17:07
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] Apple PR scrambles to rescue the company from a big gaffe: http://ping.fm/34OEN		Jul 23 17:09
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Krenso	is there any programmer?	Jul 23 17:26
Krenso	i want to find what libraries not covered by ecma tomboy is using	Jul 23 17:27
Krenso	now i do only simple grep "using System"	Jul 23 17:28
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MinceR	i'm a sw developer but i don't code in c#	Jul 23 17:30
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schestowitz	Hi, faux	Jul 23 17:32
schestowitz	Krenso: none	Jul 23 17:33
schestowitz	Banshee is the elephant in the room	Jul 23 17:33
schestowitz	Does Jim Zemlin always come across as a Charlatan, or does it only seem so to particular people? .. http://linux.com/news/featured-blogs/158-jim-zemlin/29808-linux-paves-way-for-new-open-source-in-america-coalition	Jul 23 17:35
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] Microsoft will report abysmal results tonight, so racketeering versus Red Hat is still on the table. http://ping.fm/gBTij		Jul 23 17:39
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] Glyn Moody showed s series of misconduct from Microsoft and Microsoft, in response, totally neglects to address them. http://ping.fm/pgKus		Jul 23 17:42
Krenso	MinceR, what is sw? I think c# is similar to java, c++. So such skills will help	Jul 23 17:44
MinceR	sw stands for software	Jul 23 17:45
Krenso	direct3d sugested me to search for foo(	Jul 23 17:45
MinceR	and such skills don't help that much when you're enumerating parts of the "standard" library	Jul 23 17:45
schestowitz	"That pretty much sums it up. The day Microsoft quits carrying on like a fanatic, paranoid Taliban is the day that other companies and organizations will have an easier time getting along with them. After all, let's not forget who the problem is. It isn't Linux that the US and EU have to keep bringing antitrust actions against."	Jul 23 17:48
Krenso	but also objects can be imported	Jul 23 17:48
schestowitz	They can	Jul 23 17:49
schestowitz	The above is from	Jul 23 17:50
Krenso	classes and functions, what else can be used from libraries?	Jul 23 17:50
schestowitz	http://penguinpetes.com/b2evo/index.php?title=who_are_the_real_zealots_part_2&more=1&c=1&tb=1&pb=1	Jul 23 17:50
schestowitz	Just so that you guys know, sebsebseb is here for Mono (Unity) for all I can tell and he used the link above to daemonise us in front of Byfield	Jul 23 17:50
schestowitz	<sebsebseb> [20:41] <bruce89> that is tasteless and insulting	Jul 23 17:50
schestowitz	<sebsebseb> [20:42] <sebsebseb> bruce89: why do you think that? and guess where I got the link from	Jul 23 17:50
schestowitz	<sebsebseb> [20:42] <bruce89> 1. The Taliban had nothing to do with 9/11	Jul 23 17:50
schestowitz	<sebsebseb> [20:42] <sebsebseb> yep I was thinking that as well	Jul 23 17:50
schestowitz	toxins in this channel... "cj" too	Jul 23 17:51
schestowitz	Always seems to sneak in some smears against us in some sites	Jul 23 17:51
MinceR	so according to byfield, the talibans are good guys now?	Jul 23 17:52
*amarsh04_ is now known as amarsh04		Jul 23 17:53
ThistleWeb	Sadaam has been both sides of the friend / enemy divide with the US without doing anything different	Jul 23 17:54
schestowitz	http://moblinzone.com/blog/322/59/NEC_pledges_WiMAX_software_to_Moblin_Project	Jul 23 17:54
schestowitz	Oh oh...	Jul 23 17:54
schestowitz	"Henry Kingman"	Jul 23 17:54
schestowitz	Is he not editing Linux Devices anymore?	Jul 23 17:54
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schestowitz	ThistleWeb: not true	Jul 23 17:54
schestowitz	[sarcasm] he has always been a friend	Jul 23 17:55
schestowitz	[sarcasm] first as puppet	Jul 23 17:55
ThistleWeb	lol	Jul 23 17:55
schestowitz	[sarcasm] then as useful idiot	Jul 23 17:55
schestowitz	[sarcasm] then as scapegoat	Jul 23 17:55
schestowitz	(taking thew blame for 9/11)	Jul 23 17:55
Trials	same with bin ladin, who do you think financed and trained him ?	Jul 23 17:55
ThistleWeb	yeah having the Rumsfeild / Sadaam video don't help when Rumssfeild was in charge of sending the troops in	Jul 23 17:55
schestowitz	Trials: you're not supposed to know that	Jul 23 17:56
schestowitz	The public sure doesn't	Jul 23 17:56
Trials	just as sadam did lots of business with Bush Snr and W	Jul 23 17:57
ThistleWeb	the US has a habit of making allies with anyone who can promote their agenda regardless of how it impacts on the locals	Jul 23 17:57
ThistleWeb	even if they need to back that puppet's enemies later on	Jul 23 17:57
Trials	and picking the wrong people	Jul 23 17:58
ThistleWeb	they always do	Jul 23 17:58
ThistleWeb	you have to wonder at the collective wisdom in the US govt circles, with 2 failed wars in living memory	Jul 23 17:58
schestowitz	Letter of Protest to ASUS < http://community.zdnet.co.uk/blog/0,1000000567,10013256o-2000498448b,00.htm >	Jul 23 17:58
schestowitz	Just two?	Jul 23 17:59
schestowitz	What about Afghanistan?	Jul 23 17:59
ThistleWeb	most countries learn from their own mistakes and the mistakes of others, yet the US seem oblivious to learning anything	Jul 23 17:59
ThistleWeb	I guess	Jul 23 17:59
ThistleWeb	most failures don't happen twice in one lifetime	Jul 23 18:00
ThistleWeb	huge failures*	Jul 23 18:00
ThistleWeb	fromt he same country	Jul 23 18:00
ThistleWeb	but, well, we need to look at them for examples of how the world should be	Jul 23 18:00
schestowitz	Well, here's the think	Jul 23 18:00
schestowitz	People need choice in election	Jul 23 18:01
schestowitz	The problem is that there is no opposition party	Jul 23 18:01
ThistleWeb	make up BS excuses to invade a country you fancy the resources of, and call it self defense......."I hit him back first"	Jul 23 18:01
schestowitz	[Well... Nader.. ha!	Jul 23 18:01
Trials	not to mention the lost war on drugs, war on terror, war on anything we dont like. and the many many totally failed missions.	Jul 23 18:01
ThistleWeb	yeah, war on words never go well	Jul 23 18:01
schestowitz	"Mission Accomplished"	Jul 23 18:03
schestowitz	--GWB, 2004 (2003?)	Jul 23 18:03
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[davidgerard] RT @moltke: Read the sample, want to buy book. I get Kindle for iPhone, sign in, click 'buy'. Error: non-us Visa. Geodiscrimination=>piracy		Jul 23 18:04
ThistleWeb	the problem with a political system built by the elite for the elite, is that the elite will find the solutions to the problems, and fix things yet again in their favour.....and the public get screwed all over again	Jul 23 18:04
schestowitz	Healthcare is important	Jul 23 18:04
schestowitz	US healthcare makes even the NHS look very decent	Jul 23 18:04
ThistleWeb	US healthcare for those who can afford it must be great	Jul 23 18:05
ThistleWeb	pity for those who can't	Jul 23 18:05
Krenso	I'm going to ask on irc.gnome.org #mono about my concerns	Jul 23 18:05
Krenso	i'm curious would they help me	Jul 23 18:06
ThistleWeb	at least in the UK you know you get medical treatment when you need it regardless of your ability to pay	Jul 23 18:06
Trials	trouble with the US Govmnt is they dont like to increase taxes, and they dont like to decrease spending so they borrow and spend, then borrow some more. to the tune of 10 Trillian and counting.	Jul 23 18:07
ThistleWeb	the US govt / corps all like to hold the carrot of "it could be you that's super rich one day, so don't go too hard on us" knowing that the peeps will NEVER be one of them, but will go through life obsessed with the carrot	Jul 23 18:09
schestowitz	http://jupiter.samba.org/jupiter-impact.html	Jul 23 18:09
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schestowitz	I cam across this video this morning: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-nNZOjDi_dQ	Jul 23 18:11
Trials	yes, and if they simply removed MONEY from being necessary to campain, then it would not be owned by the elite class. If all parties get equil time to put their case	Jul 23 18:11
*schestowitz Been watching lots of astronomy videos recently		Jul 23 18:11
ThistleWeb	the US is (or at least was) a place where the super rich flaunted their money	Jul 23 18:12
ThistleWeb	it was a badge of honour	Jul 23 18:12
ThistleWeb	the UK, the super rich know not to flaunt it too much, the public don't like it	Jul 23 18:12
ThistleWeb	not to mention a chain of stores all over the US, is in a whole different league wealth wise to a chain of stores all over the UK	Jul 23 18:13
Trials	yes, its not like the beckoms are loud and showoffy	Jul 23 18:14
Trials	or the queen,	Jul 23 18:14
ThistleWeb	the recession, with peeps like madoff being exposed has maybe changed things a little in the US, for a while at least they're showing some restraint	Jul 23 18:14
ThistleWeb	lol	Jul 23 18:14
ThistleWeb	like the car bosses, flying in on private jets looking for handouts, which didnt go down well	Jul 23 18:15
Trials	good name for that guy, madoff	Jul 23 18:15
ThistleWeb	yeah lol	Jul 23 18:15
Trials	who's that virgin guy ??	Jul 23 18:15
ThistleWeb	except he didn't, he got caught	Jul 23 18:15
ThistleWeb	branson	Jul 23 18:15
ThistleWeb	not to be confused with the sauce	Jul 23 18:16
Trials	yes, thats him, but its maddoff when he was caught he was actually proud of getting away with it for so long, destroying so manyies lives	Jul 23 18:16
ThistleWeb	it's all greed, me me me	Jul 23 18:17
Trials	and ofcourse there is that enron guy(s) as well,	Jul 23 18:17
ThistleWeb	where you can never have enough money	Jul 23 18:17
Trials	greed, yes exactly	Jul 23 18:18
ThistleWeb	kenny boy	Jul 23 18:18
Trials	Monty burns, "yes, ive got lots of money, but I would give it all up for a little more".	Jul 23 18:18
Trials	ken star ?	Jul 23 18:18
ThistleWeb	ken leigh	Jul 23 18:18
ThistleWeb	of enron	Jul 23 18:19
Trials	ahh ok	Jul 23 18:19
ThistleWeb	aka kenny boy (dubya's name for him)	Jul 23 18:19
ThistleWeb	they were mates	Jul 23 18:19
Trials	ken star is someone as well, mabey something to do with the OJ trial.	Jul 23 18:19
ThistleWeb	before and during dubya's 8 years of destruction	Jul 23 18:19
ThistleWeb	ken star was one of the republican hounds going after clinton	Jul 23 18:20
schestowitz	ThistleWeb: here is where a lot of British wealth is centralised: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rothschild	Jul 23 18:20
ThistleWeb	he was the lead attack dog trying to impeach clinton	Jul 23 18:20
Trials	ahh ok, so right time frame, wrong thing, your right,	Jul 23 18:20
ThistleWeb	schestowitz: the west has developed like that, around us is the world the elite created for themselves, we're just the pawns living in it	Jul 23 18:21
schestowitz	Rothschild wealth was estimated at over $6 billion US in 1850.	Jul 23 18:22
ThistleWeb	a govt for the people by the people is exactly what we have; except the "people" they had in mind are not us	Jul 23 18:22
ThistleWeb	it's "people like them"	Jul 23 18:22
ThistleWeb	who can be relied on not to shake the apple cart	Jul 23 18:22
ThistleWeb	because they'd lose too	Jul 23 18:22
ThistleWeb	a world of favours	Jul 23 18:23
ThistleWeb	and loyalty	Jul 23 18:23
ThistleWeb	over actual talent and skill	Jul 23 18:23
ThistleWeb	where ideas are only good if they further the cause	Jul 23 18:23
schestowitz	at 8% interest that's $491,409.0 trillion today	Jul 23 18:23
Trials	where can you get 8% on your investments ??	Jul 23 18:24
Trials	(if your name is not maddoff	Jul 23 18:24
schestowitz	"today the family grooms the inaudibility and invisibility of its presence as a result, some believe that little is left apart from a great legend - and the Rothschilds are quite content to let legend be their public relations."	Jul 23 18:25
schestowitz	Trials: at 5% it's $7.8 trillion	Jul 23 18:25
schestowitz	Still a lot of money	Jul 23 18:25
Trials	yes, it is, I wish i could find a calculator that gives the equivalent worth of money over time. im sure $1000 in 1890 was worth alot more than $1000 today, I know it does.	Jul 23 18:26
Trials	My parents pays $2000 Pound for their first house in 1960	Jul 23 18:27
schestowitz	But commodities count	Jul 23 18:27
schestowitz	So the comprisons are irrelevant	Jul 23 18:27
schestowitz	You would be better off measuring in units like capita/world capita	Jul 23 18:27
ThistleWeb	bbl	Jul 23 18:28
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Trials	I think the best way would be to look at the avarage wage at any time, for a comparison, how long it takes to earn a specific sum of money.	Jul 23 18:28
schestowitz	But population size change	Jul 23 18:29
Trials	That tells you how much it would cost to employ someone to make something.	Jul 23 18:29
schestowitz	Globe's resources stay the same pretty much	Jul 23 18:29
schestowitz	So you need to normalise the numbers sensibly. I don't know how.....	Jul 23 18:29
schestowitz	Never thought about it.	Jul 23 18:29
schestowitz	Population in 1850 was like, what? Half a billion? Maybe 1?	Jul 23 18:30
Trials	its all tied up with inflation,	Jul 23 18:30
schestowitz	Inflation is an incentive to savers	Jul 23 18:30
schestowitz	[and those who hold wealth rather than debt]	Jul 23 18:30
Trials	infaltion simply means wages and prices go up in time. its how much is a percentage	Jul 23 18:30
schestowitz	Tilt rich people upwards, poor people downwards.	Jul 23 18:31
Trials	inflation means over time your money loses value, so saving does not help.	Jul 23 18:31
schestowitz	Trials: not sure...	Jul 23 18:31
schestowitz	By that definition, there's no inflation	Jul 23 18:31
schestowitz	Wages are stagnant, prices go up unless you shop at Wal-Mart or something.	Jul 23 18:32
tacone	inflation is the bigger and smarter tax ever conceived.	Jul 23 18:32
schestowitz	Trials: no, it does	Jul 23 18:32
Trials	there is always inflation, sure sometimes the value is zero, but it usually is around 2 or 3%	Jul 23 18:32
schestowitz	But...	Jul 23 18:32
schestowitz	You need to put it in savings accounts	Jul 23 18:32
tacone	it also encourages people to invest and not save money, as it will become worthless in no time	Jul 23 18:32
schestowitz	Not under the bricks	Jul 23 18:32
tacone	bank interest usually roughly equal inflations when they aren't less	Jul 23 18:33
schestowitz	It's actually a neat way for people to ensure others come to depend on banks	Jul 23 18:33
Trials	so you father was paid the same amount as you are ?? I dont think so im sure he got alot less.	Jul 23 18:33
Trials	but it still had the same purchasing power as the higher number you get today.	Jul 23 18:33
tacone	if there's a dirty plot, is inflaction.	Jul 23 18:33
Trials	inflation is not created by anyone or any group or any government its just something that naturally happens.	Jul 23 18:35
tacone	an hidden ~3-4% tax on your saved money	Jul 23 18:35
schestowitz	Customers don't want Oracle.. http://www.pcworld.com/businesscenter/article/168791/oracle_tries_to_ease_concerns_of_virtual_iron_customers.html	Jul 23 18:35
tacone	it happens when you produce money	Jul 23 18:35
schestowitz	tacone: do what Gates does	Jul 23 18:36
schestowitz	Set up a 'charity'	Jul 23 18:36
schestowitz	Take some photos with kids in Africa	Jul 23 18:36
schestowitz	Invest the money	Jul 23 18:36
schestowitz	Pay no tax	Jul 23 18:36
tacone	i'd rather set up a political party	Jul 23 18:36
schestowitz	Works for Warren & Bill	Jul 23 18:36
tacone	a good business here in italy.	Jul 23 18:36
Trials	the charity or any charity does not get him out of paying income tax.	Jul 23 18:36
schestowitz	What income?	Jul 23 18:37
schestowitz	He's pretending to be semi-retired	Jul 23 18:37
schestowitz	Just having teas with world leaders telling them the wonders of Vista7	Jul 23 18:37
Trials	interest off his $$$$ and from his stocks and investments	Jul 23 18:37
tacone	i'm still wondering why gates didn't jump yet in politics	Jul 23 18:37
schestowitz	He might	Jul 23 18:37
tacone	my guess was he'll try to get in in 2012 or 2016	Jul 23 18:37
Trials	im sure he gets an income, and he would certainly have to pay tax on that, all the charity does is get him out of paying tax on the money he gives away.	Jul 23 18:38
schestowitz	If there's much left	Jul 23 18:38
tacone	i thought he was about to, because his presence in MS spots	Jul 23 18:38
schestowitz	That would be horrific	Jul 23 18:38
schestowitz	Given the criminal past	Jul 23 18:38
schestowitz	BUT..	Jul 23 18:38
schestowitz	Watch Clinton...	Jul 23 18:38
schestowitz	And many other presidents or PMs	Jul 23 18:38
schestowitz	Castro	Jul 23 18:38
tacone	i thought he's intent in building public awareness about him	Jul 23 18:38
schestowitz	Betanyahu	Jul 23 18:38
schestowitz	Bush	Jul 23 18:38
schestowitz	[reelected]	Jul 23 18:38
tacone	the charity also will help	Jul 23 18:38
schestowitz	Some convicted for crimes	Jul 23 18:39
tacone	and leaving MS also helps	Jul 23 18:39
schestowitz	Well, the public relations industry runs elections in the US< so....	Jul 23 18:39
Trials	thats why its called public office, and they are public servants. and are elected by the public	Jul 23 18:42
Trials	"I did not have public relations with that girl, monica leewinski"	Jul 23 18:43
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schestowitz	I never heard that joke before ("That's why its called public office"). Good one.	Jul 23 18:59
Trials	you forgot nixon	Jul 23 19:02
schestowitz	Conviction?	Jul 23 19:02
Trials	and its "bush's"	Jul 23 19:03
Trials	he was pardoned, was castro convicted ?	Jul 23 19:03
schestowitz	http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nixon	Jul 23 19:03
Trials	neither was clinter convicted	Jul 23 19:04
Trials	clinten	Jul 23 19:04
schestowitz	http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Watergate_scandal	Jul 23 19:04
schestowitz	Trials: my uncle said there was a Clinton scandal in the past	Jul 23 19:04
schestowitz	They usually find s/t if they look deep enough	Jul 23 19:04
Trials	yes I know about watergate. I know trickie nickie resigned over it, and the new pres pardoned him.	Jul 23 19:04
schestowitz	"The Watergate scandal was an American political scandal during the presidency of Richard Nixon that resulted in the indictment and conviction of several of Nixon's closest advisors, and ultimately in the resignation of the President himself, on August 9, 1974."	Jul 23 19:05
fewa	there have been over 40 publically documented attempts at castro's head	Jul 23 19:05
fewa	by the CIA	Jul 23 19:05
Trials	yes, I know about the watergate thing,	Jul 23 19:05
Trials	ive even seen the movie,	Jul 23 19:05
Trials	woodward and bernsteen	Jul 23 19:05
Trials	and all that,	Jul 23 19:05
Trials	musky, and "nixon tapes", CIA, the illegal slush funds.	Jul 23 19:06
schestowitz	fewa: they got Che	Jul 23 19:06
schestowitz	They assisted some people in Bolivia IIRC	Jul 23 19:07
schestowitz	Whether it was justified or not is another question altogether	Jul 23 19:07
fewa	Former Clinton aids are being hired to support the coup in Honduras	Jul 23 19:08
schestowitz	Twittttttter is sloooooooooooow	Jul 23 19:09
schestowitz	aides?	Jul 23 19:09
fewa	yes	Jul 23 19:09
schestowitz	Maybe they got aids from Monica too	Jul 23 19:09
fewa	yes Clinton has aides	Jul 23 19:09
schestowitz	Hillary would too	Jul 23 19:09
schestowitz	It's venereal	Jul 23 19:09
Trials	what other president has left office with the country in surplus ??	Jul 23 19:10
fewa	We joke about Clinton, but we are joking	Jul 23 19:11
fewa	lets see	Jul 23 19:11
fewa	getting a blow job vs. 2 bloody endless wars	Jul 23 19:11
fewa	firing of anybody that says anything	Jul 23 19:12
Trials	I would hope so, because he was an alter boy compared to JFK, and he did a good job at running the place.	Jul 23 19:12
fewa	NSA warrentless wiretapping	Jul 23 19:12
fewa	You could talk about Clinton	Jul 23 19:13
fewa	but there was every attempt to prevent people from talking about Bush	Jul 23 19:13
schestowitz	Do they matter much?	Jul 23 19:13
schestowitz	[The head]	Jul 23 19:13
fewa	^^^^^^^^^^^^^	Jul 23 19:13
schestowitz	They are surrounded by a faction	Jul 23 19:13
schestowitz	Clinton had a better team	Jul 23 19:13
Trials	I dont so much care about wire taps, if you dont do anything wrong you have little to worry about, its the "special renditions" and backhand Gitmo tricks that stink up the place	Jul 23 19:13
fewa	Trials, they go hand in hand	Jul 23 19:14
Trials	Clinton had a 3 figure IQ	Jul 23 19:14
fewa	wiretapping is differnt from having the data on the record	Jul 23 19:14
fewa	they can come up with whatever account they want	Jul 23 19:14
fewa	and then pretend like their stuff is evidence	Jul 23 19:14
fewa	we saw this all happen with HADOPI politics	Jul 23 19:15
Trials	ofcourse, its the high tech method of trumping up charges, but its the same old thing.	Jul 23 19:15
fewa	But yes, the effects, the secret prisons and suspension of habeas corpus, are the hallmark	Jul 23 19:16
Trials	so is paying people to "find the baddies" and not expecting to just get as many people off the streets as they can find to get their "reward".	Jul 23 19:17
fewa	the "reward" is etting lumped in with the others	Jul 23 19:18
Trials	Like the iraqi taxi driver, who was driving his taxi and ended up in gitmo for 6 years.	Jul 23 19:18
schestowitz	Daniel gives another lad the clown/jester hat: http://www.roughlydrafted.com/2009/07/21/whos-paying-brett-arends-to-malign-apple/	Jul 23 19:18
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[davidgerard] plan to go to vagabonds on saturday. am poor. anyone got a pint or several to spare? (big drunk puppy dog eyes)		Jul 23 19:39
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schestowitz	Byron again shows his long-shown hatred of FOSS: http://seekingalpha.com/article/150518-why-do-enterprise-software-companies-need-an-open-source-front-group	Jul 23 20:01
schestowitz	The other day he joked about MIT choosing Excahnge	Jul 23 20:01
schestowitz	Later he pretends to be 'in FOSS'... more poison.	Jul 23 20:01
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sebsebseb	hi	Jul 23 20:03
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[davidgerard] freda said a sentence! "plane gone away" the speech therapy should come through by the time she gets a first in english		Jul 23 20:05
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[davidgerard] now playing kaiser chiefs. franz ferdinand wanted to be gang of four when they grew up, bloc party wanted to be ff and kc wanted to be bp		Jul 23 20:06
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-BNc/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] @davidgerard: I was gonna ask before, who's Freda?		Jul 23 20:08
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[davidgerard] Daily Mail in example of political correctness gone stupid: http://is.gd/1Iagh		Jul 23 20:10
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[davidgerard] @schestowitz my 2yo daughter :-) the smartest, cutest and most charming child ever in history (of course)		Jul 23 20:12
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] @davidgerard: does she also edit Wikipedia?		Jul 23 20:26
Balrog	schestowitz: did you see the slashdot article about M$' code drop into Linux?	Jul 23 20:26
schestowitz	Slashdot?	Jul 23 20:27
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[davidgerard] @schestowitz at present she just pulls keys off laptops and draws on the screen		Jul 23 20:28
schestowitz	Hasn't anyone? did /, point to s/t unusual?	Jul 23 20:28
Balrog	http://news.slashdot.org/story/09/07/23/1327205/Microsofts-Code-Contribution-Due-To-GPL-Violation?art_pos=10	Jul 23 20:28
schestowitz	Yes, I know	Jul 23 20:28
Balrog	...?	Jul 23 20:28
schestowitz	Seen it days ago	Jul 23 20:28
schestowitz	More articles about it appear	Jul 23 20:28
Balrog	hmm ok.	Jul 23 20:28
Balrog	yeah, it wasn't a goodwill gesture after all	Jul 23 20:28
schestowitz	http://www.techflash.com/microsoft/Was_Microsoft_violating_the_GPL_before_deciding_to_embrace_it_51353842.html http://www.theregister.co.uk/2009/07/23/microsoft_hyperv_gpl_violation/	Jul 23 20:29
schestowitz	The Microsoft folks wrote about it by citing the blog with the original claim.	Jul 23 20:29
schestowitz	Microsoft: master of spin	Jul 23 20:31
schestowitz	"We didn't commit a violation"	Jul 23 20:31
schestowitz	"We're just... generous"	Jul 23 20:31
fewa	how do i see the announcement? where does it get posted?	Jul 23 20:32
fewa	Q4	Jul 23 20:34
schestowitz	At 9:30GMT	Jul 23 20:35
schestowitz	I think	Jul 23 20:35
schestowitz	Market close	Jul 23 20:35
schestowitz	Maybe just after	Jul 23 20:35
fewa	it said 4EST	Jul 23 20:35
fewa	which is right now	Jul 23 20:35
fewa	on Google Finance	Jul 23 20:35
schestowitz	So in about an hour. Do a Google News search on 'microsoft'	Jul 23 20:35
schestowitz	Let me know if you see it before me	Jul 23 20:35
schestowitz	We need earnings number.	Jul 23 20:35
schestowitz	Cause Mirosoft will spin to deceive	Jul 23 20:36
schestowitz	I'll make a placeholder post for live-blogging it	Jul 23 20:37
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fewa	wait EDT	Jul 23 20:39
fewa	so right now	Jul 23 20:39
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schestowitz	Placeholder: http://boycottnovell.com/2009/07/23/microsoft-results-analysis-09/	Jul 23 20:48
schestowitz	The press already has articles	Jul 23 20:49
schestowitz	But they are embargoed	Jul 23 20:49
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schestowitz	Nothing in the news yet	Jul 23 21:00
*schestowitz checks http://www.microsoft.com/presspass/		Jul 23 21:01
schestowitz	Oh, it's ther	Jul 23 21:01
schestowitz	http://www.microsoft.com/presspass/press/2009/jul09/07-23fy09Q4earnings.mspx	Jul 23 21:01
schestowitz	Whoa!!!!!!1	Jul 23 21:01
schestowitz	" Microsoft Corp. today announced revenue of $13.10 billion for the fourth quarter ended June 30, 2009, a 17% decline from the same period of the prior year."	Jul 23 21:01
schestowitz	Revenue down VERY sharply	Jul 23 21:01
schestowitz	Let's see earnings	Jul 23 21:01
schestowitz	"Operating income, net income and diluted earnings per share for the quarter were $3.99 billion, $3.05 billion and $0.34 per share, which represented declines of 30%, 29% and 26%, respectively, when compared with the prior year period."	Jul 23 21:02
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-BNc/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] According to the Press Release, Microsoft Operating Income Down 30%, Income Down 29%, and Earnings Down 26%.		Jul 23 21:15
schestowitz	http://boycottnovell.com/2009/07/23/microsoft-results-analysis-09/ <-response to it was fast	Jul 23 21:15
schestowitz	How I make my Ubuntu more beautiful and (even more) usable < http://kennke.org/blog/2009/07/22/how-i-make-my-ubuntu-more-beautiful-and-usable/ >	Jul 23 21:18
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-BNc/#boycottnovell-[davidgerard] RT @AnthonySteele Geeky ice cube trays http://tinyurl.com/luujr6		Jul 23 21:30
schestowitz	Why do smart people act like an idiot behind a PC? http://billgoldbergrants.wordpress.com/2009/07/22/why-do-smart-people-act-like-an-idiot-behind-a-pc/	Jul 23 21:30
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[davidgerard] @schestowitz the world's smallest violin appears to be playing "roll out the barrels" at the news		Jul 23 21:31
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] @davidgerard that violin ought to get a big sweaty gorilla dancing and prancing		Jul 23 21:32
schestowitz	wallclimber: we need to hurry up with Comes :-) ... before the Microsoft in "COmes vs Microsoft" is gone	Jul 23 21:32
wallclimber	Is there something I still need to do?	Jul 23 21:33
wallclimber	oh...i get it :)	Jul 23 21:33
wallclimber	maybe Microsoft will follow SCO out the door	Jul 23 21:34
krenso	hello again	Jul 23 21:35
krenso	i was talking with guys on irc.gimp.org#mono	Jul 23 21:36
krenso	and they say ms community promise covers .net from 2 to 3.5	Jul 23 21:37
krenso	and that it is written somewhere on ms site	Jul 23 21:37
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krenso	here is my next tomboy investigation http://rofrol.wordpress.com/2009/07/23/tomboy-once-again/	Jul 23 21:40
tacone	so you think tomboy's safe ?	Jul 23 21:41
Diablo-D3	tomboy is "safe" in the sense that USE GODDAMN VIM YOU LAZY BASTARDS	Jul 23 21:42
krenso	i haven't said that	Jul 23 21:42
Diablo-D3	seriously, all those postit note apps suck	Jul 23 21:43
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krenso	i have updated note, added people names	Jul 23 21:43
Diablo-D3	you know what I should do to just end this now?	Jul 23 21:43
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[trmanco] Novo design, o que acham? -> http://is.gd/1Jkb1		Jul 23 21:44
Diablo-D3	write an entire desktop environment in java	Jul 23 21:44
trmanco	oh boy	Jul 23 21:44
jocaferro	Roy, I think I made an error in my last coment.	Jul 23 21:44
Diablo-D3	or something	Jul 23 21:44
tacone	krenso: you copy pasted multiple time here http://rofrol.wordpress.com/2009/07/23/what-non-ecma-libraries-tomboy-is-using/	Jul 23 21:44
Diablo-D3	if gnome dies, mono cant hang onto it	Jul 23 21:44
Diablo-D3	and I already have a toolkit interface	Jul 23 21:44
Diablo-D3	eclipse's	Jul 23 21:45
jocaferro	Probably due to my horrible laptop I miss a close bracket	Jul 23 21:45
Diablo-D3	I just have to make yet another plugin for it	Jul 23 21:45
jocaferro	Could you please correct it or delete it?	Jul 23 21:45
jocaferro	Thanks.	Jul 23 21:46
schestowitz	http://boycottnovell.com/2009/07/23/microsoft-results-analysis-09/ updated with reports	Jul 23 21:47
schestowitz	Good day for Linux. Microsoft's loss is the gain of Linux in places where Macs don't exist (most of the world)	Jul 23 21:47
krenso	tacone, thanks, it's this stupid wordpress editor	Jul 23 21:47
schestowitz	jocaferro: let me look	Jul 23 21:48
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[davidgerard] NotN: WHO declares swine flu an end in itself http://notnews.today.com/?p=564 (with pic lifted from @utku http://twitpic.com/bbxgg )		Jul 23 21:49
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[davidgerard] @schestowitz "OEMs! OEMs! OEMs! OEMs!"		Jul 23 21:50
schestowitz	jocaferro: I see what you mean. I'll fix the markup	Jul 23 21:50
krenso	here is this famous promise (i'm sure you know this url) http://www.microsoft.com/interop/cp/default.mspx	Jul 23 21:50
krenso	promise is only for ecma334 4th edition, ecma335 4th edition, ui automation 1.0	Jul 23 21:51
schestowitz	jocaferro:: fixed	Jul 23 21:51
krenso	but as we know there are differences with what ms has standarised and their implementation (ms ooxml)	Jul 23 21:52
jocaferro	Thanks	Jul 23 21:53
krenso	mono people say there is only one condition, that ms could broke promise. "Community Promise cannot be revoked unless you sue Microsoft with a patent claim regarding that technology"	Jul 23 21:54
jocaferro	This is great - Microsoft was (still is?) violating GPL	Jul 23 21:54
MinceR	230352 < Diablo-D3> write an entire desktop environment in java	Jul 23 21:54
MinceR	and call it zero :>	Jul 23 21:54
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krenso	but what if you implemenation of ecma334 and ecma335 isn't full	Jul 23 21:54
jocaferro	http://www.theregister.co.uk/2009/07/23/microsoft_hyperv_gpl_violation/	Jul 23 21:55
MinceR	krenso: then it isn't covered by the CP	Jul 23 21:55
schestowitz	Like Looking GLass	Jul 23 21:55
schestowitz	Java bloat	Jul 23 21:55
MinceR	it isn't a "conforming implementation" or wtf they call it then.	Jul 23 21:56
schestowitz	That's what you get from a frameowrk called "monkey"	Jul 23 21:56
schestowitz	Aspiring to be more primitive species than us homo sapiens	Jul 23 21:56
schestowitz	Maybe Mono is a tribute to Microsoft's CEO, who knows...	Jul 23 21:57
krenso	"any implementation, to the extent it conforms to one of the Covered Specifications"	Jul 23 21:57
Diablo-D3	MinceR: well, I very well could	Jul 23 21:58
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Diablo-D3	MinceR: zero stalled because I never found the right language	Jul 23 21:59
MinceR	lol	Jul 23 21:59
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schestowitz	oiaohm: margins.	Jul 23 22:00
schestowitz	http://boycottnovell.com/2009/07/23/microsoft-results-analysis-09/	Jul 23 22:00
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] Great Summer for GNU/Linux http://ping.fm/KELfu		Jul 23 22:01
Diablo-D3	Im not going to respond to that	Jul 23 22:02
Diablo-D3	you know why?	Jul 23 22:02
Diablo-D3	actually, I might, nm	Jul 23 22:02
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[davidgerard] UK #wikipedia fans: BBC Radio 4 "Bigipedia" starts in 40 mins (11pm BST, 10pm UTC) http://is.gd/1Jl8s		Jul 23 22:03
oiaohm	The Income Statement 4q is a scary read schestowitz.	Jul 23 22:04
oiaohm	I do mean scary.	Jul 23 22:04
schestowitz	Did you see revenue?	Jul 23 22:04
schestowitz	Huge fall	Jul 23 22:04
schestowitz	More than previous qtr	Jul 23 22:04
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] A Look Back at How GNU/Linux Came to Being and Succeeding http://ping.fm/48fnn		Jul 23 22:05
oiaohm	Income to share holders halved in the income statement.	Jul 23 22:05
schestowitz	Nothing till next report	Jul 23 22:05
schestowitz	Not even VIsta 7	Jul 23 22:05
schestowitz	So another similar drop	Jul 23 22:05
schestowitz	Oct 2xth	Jul 23 22:06
oiaohm	As I said a long time go windows 7 has to be a hit.	Jul 23 22:06
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oiaohm	Or MS is in big trouble.	Jul 23 22:06
schestowitz	Ys, see Ballmer's talk the other day	Jul 23 22:07
oiaohm	The thing I find funny Linux guys are not in full attack yet.	Jul 23 22:07
schestowitz	About Vista 7... semi psychotic	Jul 23 22:07
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schestowitz	oiaohm: how so?	Jul 23 22:07
oiaohm	ADS on samba and openchange are not in the market yet.	Jul 23 22:07
schestowitz	IBM should start pushing more	Jul 23 22:07
schestowitz	Linux to comerce	Jul 23 22:07
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] Linux Journal on the Evolution of One GNU/Linux Geek http://ping.fm/qBi0P		Jul 23 22:08
oiaohm	Ie ADS and exhcange done in open source.	Jul 23 22:08
oiaohm	That would be a major attack on MS server market.	Jul 23 22:08
oiaohm	The attack is coming. Once the Linux guys have control of the business server room complete the battle for business desktop will start.	Jul 23 22:10
crunchy135711	I hope it will happen before I retire :)	Jul 23 22:11
schestowitz	oiaohm: sharep*int too	Jul 23 22:11
schestowitz	Built to lock in from the centre	Jul 23 22:11
oiaohm	sharepoint is already covered.	Jul 23 22:11
schestowitz	OK	Jul 23 22:11
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] Microsoft is Falling Behind and Can't Come Back -- Opinion http://ping.fm/e29Xv		Jul 23 22:12
schestowitz	Alfresco and others I guess	Jul 23 22:12
oiaohm	Alfesco is a very good equal to sharepoint.	Jul 23 22:13
schestowitz	There are two more I know of	Jul 23 22:13
schestowitz	But I can't recall their names	Jul 23 22:13
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] Linux Gets Air Cursor http://ping.fm/ukXJh		Jul 23 22:13
oiaohm	Alfesco is also know for its rock solid stablity.	Jul 23 22:14
oiaohm	That sharepoint and the others are not known for schestowitz.	Jul 23 22:15
schestowitz	Sharepoint (latest) is built for what platforms?	Jul 23 22:16
schestowitz	WIndows 2008?	Jul 23 22:16
schestowitz	(which is less stable than win2003, says Yankee Groups (Microsoft puppet))	Jul 23 22:16
oiaohm	Windows 2008 and 2003	Jul 23 22:16
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] Another Professional Audiocast from Linux Format People http://ping.fm/w1fQD		Jul 23 22:16
oiaohm	sharepoint it self is depending on a MS database that kinda fails the same way exchange does.	Jul 23 22:17
oiaohm	Basically both exchange and sharepoint are not known for there stablity.	Jul 23 22:17
schestowitz	Ask LSE...	Jul 23 22:17
oiaohm	ADS and Office intergration is what has been holding both up	Jul 23 22:18
oiaohm	MS is a huge house of cards.	Jul 23 22:18
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] Why Desktop GNU/Linux Beats Vista 7 (Ahead of Arrival Even) http://ping.fm/xhdAN		Jul 23 22:19
schestowitz	Havr you yet seen breakdown by units for MSFT?	Jul 23 22:19
schestowitz	Entertainment and Web must be losing billiobs	Jul 23 22:19
krenso	after more talks at #mono, they changed mind, and now ecma334 and ecma335 is equivalent only for .net 2	Jul 23 22:20
krenso	not .net 3, .net 3.5	Jul 23 22:20
krenso	what a mess	Jul 23 22:21
tacone	krenso: that was known	Jul 23 22:21
schestowitz	Wishful thinking	Jul 23 22:21
MinceR	exactly the kind of certainty i look for when searching for a language of choice!	Jul 23 22:21
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] NASA BigView Software Works Only on GNU/Linux Desktops http://ping.fm/mORzZ		Jul 23 22:21
oiaohm	That is why I was laughing about the patent promise krenso	Jul 23 22:22
tacone	miguel says clarification is slow but on the way	Jul 23 22:22
tacone	i won't hope that much, though	Jul 23 22:22
tacone	i like the CP, though	Jul 23 22:22
MinceR	i think duke nukem forever will run on the phantom console before that clarification arrives	Jul 23 22:22
oiaohm	CP on the ECMA335 is very limiting.	Jul 23 22:22
tacone	lol	Jul 23 22:22
tacone	duke nukem forever rocks.	Jul 23 22:22
MinceR	and it will use the glaze3d gpu	Jul 23 22:22
MinceR	and it will store the savegames on winfs	Jul 23 22:22
schestowitz	glaze?	Jul 23 22:22
MinceR	it was an example of vaporware	Jul 23 22:23
schestowitz	WInFS -- real soon now!! Promise.	Jul 23 22:23
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] Microsoft's Grip on OEMs Increasingly Weakenes http://ping.fm/u2oC5		Jul 23 22:25
oiaohm	Not only OEM weakness.	Jul 23 22:37
oiaohm	OEM are fighting on the price they are prepared to pay.	Jul 23 22:37
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MinceR	strange, the recend asus and lenovo issues would make me think that grip has actually increased	Jul 23 22:37
schestowitz	Hardly	Jul 23 22:38
schestowitz	Just proportionally unchanged	Jul 23 22:38
schestowitz	"In after hours trading, Microsoft has lost over 7% of their value. "	Jul 23 22:40
schestowitz	Just 7%?	Jul 23 22:40
oiaohm	It will take 24 hours for the full effect to be known.	Jul 23 22:41
oiaohm	But a 7 percent move quicky is a worry.	Jul 23 22:42
trmanco	http://www.pcworld.com/businesscenter/article/168947/engineer_microsoft_violated_gpl_before_linux_code_release.html	Jul 23 22:46
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-BNc/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] GNU/Linux Makes Good Progress at Gaming http://ping.fm/6NU7Z http://ping.fm/W5sW3		Jul 23 22:47
krenso	it was funny to talk with mono guys	Jul 23 22:48
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krenso	first they said ecma is equivalent of .net 2, .net 3, .net 3.5	Jul 23 22:48
MinceR	we're all on the same side -- we all want to turn gnu/linux into another toy m$ owns and can sell to us! ...oh, wait	Jul 23 22:49
oiaohm	Mono guys have had there head in sand krenso	Jul 23 22:49
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] KDE 4.3 RC3 is Released http://ping.fm/DNSgb		Jul 23 22:50
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[trmanco] Engineer: Microsoft Violated GPL Before Linux Code Release: http://is.gd/1JnLS		Jul 23 22:50
krenso	mono implements .net 2.x, ecma334 ecma335 covers .net[2-3.5], doesn't mono need to implement also .net3.5 to be compliant with all required parts?	Jul 23 22:50
oiaohm	No matter how much yelling people have know better has been able to get ears out ground.	Jul 23 22:50
oiaohm	Mono part implements 3.5	Jul 23 22:50
oiaohm	That is the problem.	Jul 23 22:51
krenso	before they were talking that .net >=3 is just addons to 2	Jul 23 22:51
oiaohm	Mono is going to have to split there runtime.	Jul 23 22:51
oiaohm	Lot of developers are not going to be happy stuck 2	Jul 23 22:51
krenso	then finally some said it: i.e. ecma 335 version 4 is equivalent to .net 2.0 (since the "core" stuff in 2.0 is the same as in 3.5). ecma 334 version 4 is equivalent to c# version 2	Jul 23 22:51
krenso	and then i heard it: mono is not explicitly covered against patent infringement calls from microsoft if its specific implementation of features from .net 3+ violates one of microsoft's method patents.	Jul 23 22:52
Diablo-D3	woah woah woah	Jul 23 22:52
Diablo-D3	rewind	Jul 23 22:52
Diablo-D3	[06:00:34] <schestowitz> "In after hours trading, Microsoft has lost over 7% of their value. "	Jul 23 22:52
MinceR	mono developers don't care, they'll just keep using everything and claim it's safe	Jul 23 22:52
Diablo-D3	STOP! DONT BE A FAG! Ignore after hours trading!	Jul 23 22:52
oiaohm	Its cracking up MinceR	Jul 23 22:53
Diablo-D3	take my advice peopl	Jul 23 22:53
oiaohm	The need for CP showed a lot that coverage was required	Jul 23 22:53
Diablo-D3	after hours trading can go up and down very quickly because the rest of the US is not trading	Jul 23 22:53
Diablo-D3	its only really really rich people and institutions who have access to that	Jul 23 22:54
MinceR	there's no need for CP, only for a proper patent license	Jul 23 22:54
MinceR	but that won't happen	Jul 23 22:54
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] Fedora 12 Already Available for Testers (No Mono This Time) http://ping.fm/uaYm1		Jul 23 22:54
oiaohm	Not exactly.	Jul 23 22:55
schestowitz	Diablo-D3: stop using curse words	Jul 23 22:55
schestowitz	You spoil the channel this way	Jul 23 22:55
oiaohm	I am not really rich but I have access to rapid trading Diablo-D3.	Jul 23 22:55
Diablo-D3	schestowitz: then please, stop saying/repeating stupid things	Jul 23 22:55
Diablo-D3	oiaohm: you dont have access to after hours, however	Jul 23 22:55
schestowitz	You do	Jul 23 22:55
oiaohm	But most people and institutions take 24 hours for blance sheets to sink in.	Jul 23 22:55
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_Goblin	hi all...	Jul 23 22:56
schestowitz	Hil, _Goblin	Jul 23 22:56
Diablo-D3	I can issue a trade at any time I want	Jul 23 22:56
schestowitz	You have a demise to blog maybe?	Jul 23 22:56
_Goblin	just got in from work :(	Jul 23 22:56
Diablo-D3	but its only executed when the market is open	Jul 23 22:56
Diablo-D3	remember, Im the only one in here who regularly trades	Jul 23 22:56
_Goblin	trades what?	Jul 23 22:56
oiaohm	I have equal access to a big companies. Reason I am in a major share trading group.	Jul 23 22:56
schestowitz	_Goblin: http://boycottnovell.com/2009/07/23/microsoft-results-analysis-09/	Jul 23 22:56
Diablo-D3	_Goblin: stocks	Jul 23 22:56
oiaohm	Incorrect Diablo-D3	Jul 23 22:56
_Goblin	Roy: Cheers...	Jul 23 22:56
*jocaferro has quit (Ping timeout: 180 seconds)		Jul 23 22:57
krenso	i love this strategic move: <them>ecma equivalent of .net[2-3.5], <me>promise covers only implementations compliant with all of the required parts, but mono doesn't implements .net >2 <them>ecma is equivalent of .net 2. .net 3.x are just addons	Jul 23 22:57
_Goblin	yep...wrong Diablo....Ill explain (if you wish) when I return from reading the article.	Jul 23 22:57
Diablo-D3	wrong what?	Jul 23 22:57
Diablo-D3	after hours trading does not matter	Jul 23 22:57
Diablo-D3	now, if its still the same price when the market opens tommorow, _then_ it matters	Jul 23 22:58
oiaohm	Direct trading.	Jul 23 22:58
oiaohm	I do have that option Diablo-D3	Jul 23 22:58
schestowitz	krenso: yes, It'sATrap(C)	Jul 23 22:58
schestowitz	Diablo-D3: projective	Jul 23 22:58
schestowitz	See Yahoo Finance for example	Jul 23 22:58
_Goblin	Microsoft Operating Income Down 30%, Income Down 29%, and Earnings Down 26% - ouch...	Jul 23 22:59
_Goblin	looks like Ballmers blown the chance to get his perspiration problem sorted at a private clinic.	Jul 23 23:00
oiaohm	Funny reason I am part of the share group. Is they are one of the few places here that give interest on a working account.	Jul 23 23:00
krenso	i'm very angry with what they've done in Russia with their parner BSI	Jul 23 23:00
_Goblin	he'll have to use the NHS with figures like that.	Jul 23 23:00
oiaohm	krenso: its hurting them.	Jul 23 23:00
Diablo-D3	oiaohm: bah	Jul 23 23:00
Diablo-D3	oiaohm: 99.9% of america cant do that	Jul 23 23:00
oiaohm	Keep on dumping software keep on slowly killing the company.	Jul 23 23:01
oiaohm	Because people no longer value the software.	Jul 23 23:01
schestowitz	krenso: yes, I wrote about it	Jul 23 23:01
Diablo-D3	btw, to be honest	Jul 23 23:01
Diablo-D3	microsoft was never worth investing in	Jul 23 23:01
Diablo-D3	maybe 30 years ago	Jul 23 23:01
Diablo-D3	but not now	Jul 23 23:01
_Goblin	oiaohm: I think though that could save them....too many fingers in too many pies..	Jul 23 23:01
oiaohm	That is the funny part.	Jul 23 23:01
_Goblin	I think MS cant stand the thought of anyone doing anything better than them.	Jul 23 23:01
_Goblin	and thats maybe the problem.	Jul 23 23:01
krenso	and now this attack on rms	Jul 23 23:01
schestowitz	Sony, Google, Apple..	Jul 23 23:02
oiaohm	Diablo-D3: we have some americans in our trading group.	Jul 23 23:02
oiaohm	Because the usa trading groups don't offer it.	Jul 23 23:02
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Diablo-D3	microsoft needs diplomacy	Jul 23 23:02
Diablo-D3	even I'd worth for them if they gave me full control of the company	Jul 23 23:02
oiaohm	Diplomacy cannot undo pass mistakes that are in peoples mind.	Jul 23 23:03
oiaohm	Microsoft name might be that far damaged that the name is not recoverable.	Jul 23 23:03
Diablo-D3	oiaohm: not at all	Jul 23 23:03
Diablo-D3	I can use open source to save the company	Jul 23 23:03
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] Latest KDE4 Makes Kubuntu GNU/Linux Work Well http://ping.fm/5DTQM		Jul 23 23:04
Diablo-D3	which also means microsoft has to give up most of it's patent war chest	Jul 23 23:04
oiaohm	Diablo-D3: lack of trust out there.	Jul 23 23:04
Diablo-D3	oiaohm: its no longer an issue of trust	Jul 23 23:04
oiaohm	Will not go away simply.	Jul 23 23:04
Diablo-D3	microsoft will be forced to do certain actions, or they will die	Jul 23 23:04
Diablo-D3	no one in the company has the balls to do those actions	Jul 23 23:04
oiaohm	Problem is redhat and others could gain from any MS open source effort.	Jul 23 23:04
krenso	i think we also needs diplomacy: http://digg.com/linux_unix/Roy_Schestowitz_banned_from_Google_Groups http://www.reddit.com/r/linux/comments/93nc6/could_we_get_this_spammer_blocked_please/	Jul 23 23:04
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] Review of Ubuntu One http://ping.fm/ZIQGD		Jul 23 23:04
oiaohm	So leaving MS still dead in the water Diablo-D3	Jul 23 23:05
MinceR	the m$ brand is a liability now	Jul 23 23:05
MinceR	imo	Jul 23 23:05
oiaohm	Good diplomacy you are looking at years to turn the damage they have done around Diablo-D3	Jul 23 23:05
Diablo-D3	oiaohm: good diplomacy means destroying your enemy and them loving you for it anyhow	Jul 23 23:05
oiaohm	Problem is they should have started the good diplomacy about 4 years ago.	Jul 23 23:05
schestowitz	krenso: we have nothing to do with that person who they want banned	Jul 23 23:06
Diablo-D3	I do believe Microsoft can be saved	Jul 23 23:06
schestowitz	As for GOogle Groups, I don't do that	Jul 23 23:06
schestowitz	It's called USENET	Jul 23 23:06
MinceR	Diablo-D3: what's the point?	Jul 23 23:06
Diablo-D3	but it does require removing people who simply are too old to lead.	Jul 23 23:06
schestowitz	Google can do as they please	Jul 23 23:06
oiaohm	I don't believe MS has the time to save self Diablo-D3	Jul 23 23:06
MinceR	Diablo-D3: what of value do they have?	Jul 23 23:06
Diablo-D3	MinceR: because with microsoft, the world can be ushered into a new era of efficiency	Jul 23 23:06
Diablo-D3	the name itself is a useful tool	Jul 23 23:06
oiaohm	Not really Diablo-D3	Jul 23 23:06
MinceR	what	Jul 23 23:06
MinceR	what has m$ have to do with efficiency?	Jul 23 23:07
Diablo-D3	MinceR: nothing. thats the great part.	Jul 23 23:07
oiaohm	Google and Orcale have stronger and better trusted brands Diablo-D3	Jul 23 23:07
krenso	why is lefty comming here?	Jul 23 23:07
schestowitz	To bait	Jul 23 23:07
MinceR	and what's the name good for? only their cult believes that their products are any good	Jul 23 23:07
schestowitz	For dirt to troll with	Jul 23 23:07
Diablo-D3	imagine, a new version of windows that is based on linux or bsd	Jul 23 23:07
Diablo-D3	and is 100% open source	Jul 23 23:07
MinceR	Diablo-D3: pointless.	Jul 23 23:07
oiaohm	Still be hated.	Jul 23 23:07
MinceR	might as well be called something that doesn't imply it's a sack of shit.	Jul 23 23:07
oiaohm	Other companies have tried that Diablo-D3	Jul 23 23:07
Diablo-D3	well yeah, I'd kill the windows brand	Jul 23 23:07
oiaohm	Outcome is known.	Jul 23 23:07
Diablo-D3	I never liked the name windows	Jul 23 23:07
MinceR	i'd kill the m$ brand too	Jul 23 23:07
oiaohm	Failed distribution.	Jul 23 23:07
MinceR	same thing as windows	Jul 23 23:08
Diablo-D3	the MS brand would stay	Jul 23 23:08
oiaohm	all the tech nicked by the other distributions Diablo-D3	Jul 23 23:08
Diablo-D3	I'd rebrand it, sure	Jul 23 23:08
MinceR	what for?	Jul 23 23:08
Diablo-D3	but I'd keep the name	Jul 23 23:08
oiaohm	MS brand is worthless.	Jul 23 23:08
oiaohm	Worse than worthless.	Jul 23 23:08
MinceR	in what way does the microsoft brand stand for something that isn't shitty and evil?	Jul 23 23:08
Diablo-D3	I'm not entirely biased atm	Jul 23 23:08
trmanco	http://climenole.wordpress.com/2009/07/23/linus-torvald-quote-of-the-day/	Jul 23 23:08
Diablo-D3	I'm thinking with my wallet here	Jul 23 23:08
oiaohm	You have to remove its link to shitty and evil Diablo-D3	Jul 23 23:08
Diablo-D3	oiaohm: I could do that in 2 years.	Jul 23 23:08
oiaohm	From the brand.	Jul 23 23:08
MinceR	removing that link costs resources	Jul 23 23:08
oiaohm	You only have about 1.	Jul 23 23:09
Diablo-D3	microsoft has a shitload of money to burn	Jul 23 23:09
MinceR	and you can spare all that trouble by simply starting with a clean slate and a new name	Jul 23 23:09
MinceR	like i said, it's a liability	Jul 23 23:09
MinceR	it has negative value	Jul 23 23:09
Diablo-D3	MinceR: no	Jul 23 23:09
MinceR	it's garbage	Jul 23 23:09
Diablo-D3	to say its a liability alone is wrong	Jul 23 23:09
fewa	examplegood quote	Jul 23 23:09
Diablo-D3	most people run a microsoft product	Jul 23 23:09
MinceR	the most profitable way you can handle that brand is throwing it away	Jul 23 23:09
Diablo-D3	hated or not	Jul 23 23:09
fewa	*good quote	Jul 23 23:09
Diablo-D3	they run it	Jul 23 23:09
Diablo-D3	and they _keep_ running it	Jul 23 23:09
MinceR	they don't know, they don't care	Jul 23 23:09
oiaohm	At current fall rate they will not be making profit in 4 more quaters.	Jul 23 23:09
MinceR	they never chose to do so	Jul 23 23:09
Diablo-D3	those people have been locked in	Jul 23 23:10
krenso	is lefty so stupid, or he is connected with ms?	Jul 23 23:10
Diablo-D3	btw, this entire argument is a tad moot	Jul 23 23:10
oiaohm	so if you cannot turn minds in 2 years you will not have any more money to be dumping to correct image Diablo-D3	Jul 23 23:10
krenso	gnome infected, ubuntu infected	Jul 23 23:10
Diablo-D3	microsoft will never hire someone with a clue	Jul 23 23:10
MinceR	those people aren't going to consciously buy your product just because you happen to be using a brand they never cared about, but were forced to buy	Jul 23 23:10
krenso	what about fedora?	Jul 23 23:10
fewa	Linux is a pragmatist, and refuses to deal with specific actions he doesn't like or are unproductive, he does not rate any groups of individuals simply by their affiliations.	Jul 23 23:10
fewa	well thats a little lofty	Jul 23 23:10
Diablo-D3	oiaohm: it wont matter, we wont even have that many developers working for us	Jul 23 23:10
Diablo-D3	oiaohm: if I ran microsoft, I'd fire at least half the employees	Jul 23 23:10
oiaohm	MS does not have enough developers that is part of the problem Diablo-D3	Jul 23 23:11
MinceR	Linus is naive	Jul 23 23:11
Diablo-D3	microsoft doesnt have enough _clueful_ developers	Jul 23 23:11
fewa	But he focuses on being productive, instead of morally right	Jul 23 23:11
Diablo-D3	I'd probably fire most of the developers	Jul 23 23:11
MinceR	microsoft has developers?	Jul 23 23:11
fewa	MinceR, yes, many developers disagree with him too	Jul 23 23:11
oiaohm	MS is already doing that Diablo-D3	Jul 23 23:11
fewa	Alan Cox for example	Jul 23 23:11
Diablo-D3	I'd start hiring people out of the foss realm	Jul 23 23:11
trmanco	http://www.ubuntu.com/testing/karmic/alpha3	Jul 23 23:11
Diablo-D3	I'd probably buy redhat too	Jul 23 23:11
oiaohm	have you not seen all the departments MS has been closing Diablo-D3	Jul 23 23:11
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] 5 Reasons Why Linux-powered Phones Are Ahead of iPhone http://ping.fm/jozVp		Jul 23 23:11
MinceR	giving m$ more ways to attack FLOSS is not pragmatic in any way	Jul 23 23:12
Diablo-D3	oiaohm: yes, and its not enough	Jul 23 23:12
fewa	and the 30% revenue drop	Jul 23 23:12
oiaohm	Unlikely you could pull a buy of redhat off.	Jul 23 23:12
fewa	the stock dropped 8% today	Jul 23 23:12
Diablo-D3	they need to fire people at the top too	Jul 23 23:12
oiaohm	Because you would have to out bid IBM.	Jul 23 23:12
MinceR	Diablo-D3: that would kill red hat	Jul 23 23:12
Diablo-D3	that reminds me	Jul 23 23:12
oiaohm	IBM has tried a few times to by Redhat and decided not to go hostile.	Jul 23 23:12
Diablo-D3	I would have to call up IBM	Jul 23 23:12
oiaohm	IBM hates MS.	Jul 23 23:12
schestowitz	The Linus argument is flawed	Jul 23 23:13
Diablo-D3	<me> Hi, IBM, I'm the new head of Microsoft. Lets be friends.	Jul 23 23:13
oiaohm	Only uses MS for proft.	Jul 23 23:13
schestowitz	IBM does not attack Linux	Jul 23 23:13
schestowitz	Microsoft does	Jul 23 23:13
Diablo-D3	<ibm> Do you like Linux?	Jul 23 23:13
Diablo-D3	<me> I lurrrrrrv Linux.	Jul 23 23:13
oiaohm	Nop MS has already done that to IBM before and back stabed them.	Jul 23 23:13
schestowitz	So his analogy is erroneous	Jul 23 23:13
Diablo-D3	<ibm> best friends forever <3	Jul 23 23:13
MinceR	i doubt IBM would care in any way	Jul 23 23:13
Diablo-D3	oiaohm: no	Jul 23 23:13
oiaohm	You basically with the MS brand will have no trust Diablo-D3	Jul 23 23:13
Diablo-D3	bill gates back stabbed them	Jul 23 23:13
MinceR	their attitude towards personal computing has always been "we don't give a fuck"	Jul 23 23:13
Diablo-D3	Im not bill gates	Jul 23 23:13
MinceR	Diablo-D3: they didn't care	Jul 23 23:13
oiaohm	Baller did as well.	Jul 23 23:13
Diablo-D3	okay, then	Jul 23 23:13
MinceR	they could have killed m$, yet they let m$ flourish and rake in the cash	Jul 23 23:14
Diablo-D3	if you think microsoft is dead	Jul 23 23:14
Diablo-D3	all of you can give me money	Jul 23 23:14
oiaohm	Selling software at higher price to IBM than others they were competing with.	Jul 23 23:14
Diablo-D3	and Ill go start a new company	Jul 23 23:14
MinceR	we can, but we won't	Jul 23 23:14
oiaohm	MS best option could be rebirth.	Jul 23 23:14
Diablo-D3	Ill put roy up somewhere in the upper management =P	Jul 23 23:14
oiaohm	Ie kill brand completely.	Jul 23 23:14
Diablo-D3	seriously though	Jul 23 23:14
Diablo-D3	I do believe microsoft can be saved	Jul 23 23:14
Diablo-D3	it _does_ start with firing nearly everything and killing all the known products	Jul 23 23:15
oiaohm	It could be saved if you have 10 years to correct image.	Jul 23 23:15
Diablo-D3	it _also_ requires going 100% open source	Jul 23 23:15
oiaohm	MS has to rebuild back up trust and it will take about that long.	Jul 23 23:15
Diablo-D3	and it _also_ requires hiring everyone.	Jul 23 23:15
oiaohm	Even going open source due to MS patent threats MS will not be trust quicky.	Jul 23 23:15
Diablo-D3	I wonder if that rich dude behind ubuntu would work for me	Jul 23 23:15
Diablo-D3	oiaohm: no	Jul 23 23:16
Diablo-D3	the patents will be destroyed	Jul 23 23:16
oiaohm	There will be the thing in back of mind what is trick.	Jul 23 23:16
Diablo-D3	they're a liability	Jul 23 23:16
oiaohm	After all the tricks MS has pulled removing that is going to be hard.	Jul 23 23:16
Diablo-D3	of course it will be hard	Jul 23 23:16
Diablo-D3	but it can be done	Jul 23 23:16
Diablo-D3	problem is, microsoft _wants_ to die	Jul 23 23:16
oiaohm	2 years is way to short.	Jul 23 23:16
oiaohm	It would be a 10 years slog.	Jul 23 23:17
oiaohm	to remove mind problem.	Jul 23 23:17
oiaohm	MS most likely does not have that long.	Jul 23 23:17
Diablo-D3	I think it could be done in 2.	Jul 23 23:17
*parolang (n=user@keholmes.oregonrd-wifi-1261.amplex.net) has joined #boycottnovell		Jul 23 23:17
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[scientes] Microsoft 3Q profits drop 39% Shares drop 7.7% $1.97 in after hours http://is.gd/1JpcT http://is.gd/1Jpfj Compare with RH http://is.gd/1Jpnc		Jul 23 23:17
Diablo-D3	I think I'd also have a long conversation with Steve Jobs as well	Jul 23 23:17
Diablo-D3	now, remember, I do say, atm, microsoft is not worth investing in	Jul 23 23:18
Diablo-D3	this has to change.	Jul 23 23:18
oiaohm	You are underestermating ammount of work required Diablo-D3	Jul 23 23:18
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] Hacao Linux Put to the Test on Sub-notebooks http://ping.fm/4Cxu3		Jul 23 23:18
schestowitz	Is that a type?	Jul 23 23:19
krenso	there is also one interesting thing: after i showed them what i've greped from tomboy source http://dpaste.com/70644/	Jul 23 23:19
schestowitz	Should say 29%	Jul 23 23:19
schestowitz	Not 39%	Jul 23 23:19
oiaohm	IBM HP and Orcale is not going to forgive simply.	Jul 23 23:19
oiaohm	And they are richer than MS.	Jul 23 23:19
krenso	they say: robertj: krenso: “using Something” does not break any patents and it does not need any patent covenant.	Jul 23 23:19
krenso	directhex: krenso, the three ECMA libraries contain several namespaces. a “using” statement refers to a namespace, not a library	Jul 23 23:19
krenso	are they right?	Jul 23 23:19
Diablo-D3	oiaohm: actually, I'd start business deals with oracle and sun	Jul 23 23:19
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[scientes] Correction: Microsoft drop 29%. Blame on slowing computing market.		Jul 23 23:19
Diablo-D3	oiaohm: I'm very interested in sun's hardware platform	Jul 23 23:20
oiaohm	Sun will be gone Diablo-D3	Jul 23 23:20
oiaohm	Merged into Orcale.	Jul 23 23:20
Diablo-D3	not at all, no	Jul 23 23:20
oiaohm	So Orcale does not need you at all.	Jul 23 23:20
Diablo-D3	oracle isn't doing it that way	Jul 23 23:20
oiaohm	Orcale is going that way.	Jul 23 23:20
Diablo-D3	nope	Jul 23 23:20
parolang	schestowitz: Hey, I know this might be strange to ask, but can I write a post to your blog? I want to provide a more moderate voice in defense of free software. Of course I'll send it to you and you can do with it what you want.	Jul 23 23:20
oiaohm	It is why Orcale aquired sun.	Jul 23 23:20
Diablo-D3	it seems oracle is actually shifting the other way	Jul 23 23:20
oiaohm	For custom processor chips.	Jul 23 23:20
oiaohm	Matched to there database.	Jul 23 23:20
Diablo-D3	oiaohm: no	Jul 23 23:20
Diablo-D3	for java.	Jul 23 23:20
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] Lighter and Better Sub-notebooks with GNU/Linux Only Are Coming http://ping.fm/sNaBQ		Jul 23 23:21
fewa	what about POWER7?	Jul 23 23:21
Diablo-D3	oracle is a very big java shop	Jul 23 23:21
oiaohm	No java is a smoke screen.	Jul 23 23:21
schestowitz	parolang: sure, will be glad to	Jul 23 23:21
oiaohm	Sun has a java cpu Diablo-D3	Jul 23 23:21
Diablo-D3	man, where the fuck do you people get your information	Jul 23 23:21
parolang	schestowitz: email address?	Jul 23 23:21
Diablo-D3	seriously	Jul 23 23:21
oiaohm	Seriously	Jul 23 23:21
Diablo-D3	its like bizzaro land in here sometimes	Jul 23 23:21
schestowitz	roy at schestowitz com	Jul 23 23:21
oiaohm	One of the best platform for speed of java owns to sun Diablo-D3	Jul 23 23:21
parolang	okay, will see what I can do	Jul 23 23:21
schestowitz	Thanks.	Jul 23 23:21
oiaohm	Orcale is aquire eveyrthing for great java performance from top to bottom Diablo-D3	Jul 23 23:22
Diablo-D3	oiaohm: this is what I said	Jul 23 23:22
oiaohm	So to Orcale MS has nothing to offer.	Jul 23 23:22
Diablo-D3	but oracle isnt killing the sun name	Jul 23 23:22
oiaohm	Including hardware.	Jul 23 23:22
Diablo-D3	if anything, they are bolstering it	Jul 23 23:22
fewa	didnt they write a new java garbage collector?	Jul 23 23:22
fewa	that they are charging for?	Jul 23 23:23
Diablo-D3	fewa: no, sun did	Jul 23 23:23
oiaohm	Sun will become a sub department of Orcale	Jul 23 23:23
Diablo-D3	fewa: and its free	Jul 23 23:23
oiaohm	Like every other company Orcale has aquired Diablo-D3	Jul 23 23:23
Diablo-D3	fewa: the G1 GC is coming out in java 7 and future versions of java 6	Jul 23 23:23
oiaohm	There will only be 1 upper management.	Jul 23 23:23
krenso	compare logs for tomboy and gnote	Jul 23 23:23
krenso	http://git.gnome.org/cgit/gnote/log/	Jul 23 23:23
Diablo-D3	oiaohm: yes, there will be only 1 upper management BUT	Jul 23 23:23
Diablo-D3	oiaohm: thats going to be a merged version of oracle's and sun's AND	Jul 23 23:23
krenso	http://git.gnome.org/cgit/tomboy/log/	Jul 23 23:23
krenso	one vs many	Jul 23 23:23
oiaohm	No Diablo-D3	Jul 23 23:24
Diablo-D3	oiaohm: sun has a lot of departments that are being shuffled into the stack that has oracle's	Jul 23 23:24
fewa	krenso, wow	Jul 23 23:24
oiaohm	Oracle upper management is not taken on Sun personal.	Jul 23 23:24
Diablo-D3	oiaohm: sun keeps building sun servers, sun keeps making java	Jul 23 23:24
Diablo-D3	oiaohm: sun keeps doing solaris	Jul 23 23:24
Diablo-D3	oiaohm: sun keeps doing virtualbox	Jul 23 23:24
oiaohm	As a sub department.	Jul 23 23:24
Diablo-D3	oiaohm: now, what I _hope_ dies is zfs	Jul 23 23:24
oiaohm	Like sleepcat	Jul 23 23:24
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] Linux CTO Recommends Linux-based EBook Readers http://ping.fm/9NTqZ		Jul 23 23:25
Diablo-D3	brtfs is a superior solution to zfs	Jul 23 23:25
Diablo-D3	I hope sun's new mysql dies too	Jul 23 23:25
oiaohm	Lot 20 other companies Orcale has taken in Diablo-D3	Jul 23 23:25
oiaohm	lot/like	Jul 23 23:25
Diablo-D3	oracle never ate a company this big	Jul 23 23:25
Ng	Diablo-D3: btrfs isn't stable yet, that's a pretty massively inferior point ;)	Jul 23 23:25
oiaohm	They have eaten equal before Diablo-D3	Jul 23 23:25
oiaohm	Just made up of multiable small companies.	Jul 23 23:25
Diablo-D3	sun is bigger than most people realize	Jul 23 23:26
Diablo-D3	they just got a really damned good deal on it	Jul 23 23:26
*fewa wants brtfs		Jul 23 23:26
Diablo-D3	Im kicking IBM for not buying Sun	Jul 23 23:26
oiaohm	And orcale has been eating a lot of companies.	Jul 23 23:26
*MinceR wants the anti-linux sun people punished		Jul 23 23:26
schestowitz	Peoplesoft	Jul 23 23:26
Diablo-D3	MinceR: there arent many anymore	Jul 23 23:26
Diablo-D3	look at who runs the opensolaris project now	Jul 23 23:26
oiaohm	The aquirement is hiding how much income Orcale is really making Diablo-D3	Jul 23 23:26
krenso	i also want nilfs	Jul 23 23:26
Diablo-D3	oiaohm: so?	Jul 23 23:26
Ng	opensolaris should definitely die ;)	Jul 23 23:26
Diablo-D3	opensolaris needs to be worked on harder	Jul 23 23:27
oiaohm	Orcale has company intergation down to a fine art.	Jul 23 23:27
MinceR	Diablo-D3: i don't know who does, i don't care about slowlaris	Jul 23 23:27
Diablo-D3	MinceR: the founder of Debian.	Jul 23 23:27
oiaohm	Number 1 don't put aquire company in control.	Jul 23 23:27
fewa	MinceR, yeah they FUD linux	Jul 23 23:27
oiaohm	Number 2 make aquired company sub department.	Jul 23 23:27
Diablo-D3	and btw, brtfs is "beta" in linux terms	Jul 23 23:27
oiaohm	this way you don't have board fights.	Jul 23 23:27
MinceR	i've put it in that box where i keep all the ancient, dead or dying unixes that are mostly notable because of their broken/outdated termcap databases ;)	Jul 23 23:27
Diablo-D3	its actually most worth using	Jul 23 23:27
Diablo-D3	its no worse than zfs fuse.	Jul 23 23:27
MinceR	("xterm? what's that? DURR")	Jul 23 23:27
krenso	why google's chromium is in c++ not java/c#?	Jul 23 23:27
krenso	http://stackoverflow.com/questions/623062/why-was-googles-chrome-browser-written-almost-entirely-in-c-and-not-c-or-java/	Jul 23 23:28
oiaohm	Each department has to make profit.	Jul 23 23:28
Diablo-D3	krenso: are you retarded? its webkit based	Jul 23 23:28
tacone	Diablo-D3: behave.	Jul 23 23:28
oiaohm	Only the main board of orcale can do outside deals Diablo-D3	Jul 23 23:28
MinceR	krenso: not c# nor java because one of its basic ideas is process magic	Jul 23 23:28
Diablo-D3	oiaohm: I think you're missing something	Jul 23 23:28
MinceR	can't do that if you also have to mind a vm doing stuff under you :>	Jul 23 23:28
tacone	i can't see google using mono anytime soon	Jul 23 23:28
krenso	i'm not asking, i know why	Jul 23 23:28
krenso	but there are some nice answers	Jul 23 23:29
Diablo-D3	oiaohm: if I was the head of micrsoft, I'd buy servers from sun and put microsoft linux/bsd/whatever on it	Jul 23 23:29
tacone	it's not java because its main selling point is speed	Jul 23 23:29
Ng	Diablo-D3: xenix? ;)	Jul 23 23:29
Diablo-D3	Ng: something new	Jul 23 23:29
MinceR	nah	Jul 23 23:29
Diablo-D3	I'd also kill .net	Jul 23 23:29
oiaohm	Diablo-D3: Orcale again. Selling stuff don't make you there friend.	Jul 23 23:29
Diablo-D3	its worthless slow shit	Jul 23 23:29
MinceR	microsoft linux is marketed under names like "suse" and "xandros" now	Jul 23 23:29
Diablo-D3	oiaohm: no, it makes you their best friend	Jul 23 23:29
oiaohm	No.	Jul 23 23:29
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[_goblin] Openbytes 1st birthday is on August 8th.... Can't believe in a few weeks I have been running it for a year...		Jul 23 23:29
Diablo-D3	I'd be their largest customer.	Jul 23 23:29
Diablo-D3	oracle loves money	Jul 23 23:30
oiaohm	Even if you spend most of MS worth you still would not be Orcales Largest customer.	Jul 23 23:30
oiaohm	That is your problem.	Jul 23 23:30
Diablo-D3	I dont know about that	Jul 23 23:31
oiaohm	MS is big in IT .	Jul 23 23:31
Diablo-D3	oiaohm: seriously, quit thinking so negative	Jul 23 23:31
Diablo-D3	microsoft can be saved	Jul 23 23:31
Diablo-D3	microsoft simply doesnt want it	Jul 23 23:31
fewa	no they cant	Jul 23 23:31
MinceR	it simply isn't worth it	Jul 23 23:31
oiaohm	But Orcale sells to a lot of industrys with larger budgets than MS can put up.	Jul 23 23:31
fewa	they will make more money not being saved	Jul 23 23:31
Diablo-D3	fewa: nope	Jul 23 23:31
Diablo-D3	microsoft will be dead in 10 years	Jul 23 23:31
Ng	oiaohm: like governments :)	Jul 23 23:32
oiaohm	You are thinking MS is big.	Jul 23 23:32
Diablo-D3	oiaohm: no, you're thinking my plan is small	Jul 23 23:32
Diablo-D3	Im not buying the servers for microsoft	Jul 23 23:32
fewa	they can either run themselves into the ground or reform	Jul 23 23:32
oiaohm	Compare to IBM and Orcale make MS look like small fish.	Jul 23 23:32
Diablo-D3	Im buying them to sell them to industries and governments.	Jul 23 23:32
Ng	they won't be dead in 10 years, they have too much cash/revenue for that	Jul 23 23:32
oiaohm	Neither IBM or Orcale want middle men.	Jul 23 23:32
Diablo-D3	of course they dont	Jul 23 23:32
Ng	they'll just be like IBM, weak and irrelevant to most people :)	Jul 23 23:32
oiaohm	They want to sell pure direct.	Jul 23 23:32
Diablo-D3	anyhow, Im tired of talking about this	Jul 23 23:32
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] Adobe's 'Open Source' Still Put to Doubt http://ping.fm/KHE8g		Jul 23 23:32
oiaohm	You would just become a target to destory.	Jul 23 23:32
Diablo-D3	you're obviously too anti-microsoft	Jul 23 23:33
Diablo-D3	I hate microsoft too	Jul 23 23:33
Diablo-D3	I hate .net	Jul 23 23:33
Diablo-D3	I hate mono	Jul 23 23:33
krenso	tacone, how is solang?	Jul 23 23:33
Diablo-D3	I hate windows	Jul 23 23:33
Diablo-D3	I even hate the xbox	Jul 23 23:33
oiaohm	No I am not exact 100 anti.	Jul 23 23:33
Diablo-D3	but I do believe it can be salvaged	Jul 23 23:33
MinceR	what is there to m$ to like?	Jul 23 23:33
oiaohm	The tatic you are saying has no legs.	Jul 23 23:33
Diablo-D3	MinceR: the fact they control 90% of the desktop	Jul 23 23:33
Diablo-D3	MinceR: windows is everywhere but enterprise	Jul 23 23:33
MinceR	they're a parasite sucking the life out of the industry i work in	Jul 23 23:33
oiaohm	MS has to go head to head with companies wanting to be a solution provide.	Jul 23 23:33
oiaohm	Ie IBM and Orcale.	Jul 23 23:33
MinceR	Diablo-D3: what's good about that?	Jul 23 23:34
oiaohm	They want to provide everything from 1 source.	Jul 23 23:34
Diablo-D3	MinceR: customer lock in	Jul 23 23:34
oiaohm	No money to anyone else Diablo-D3	Jul 23 23:34
MinceR	Diablo-D3: what's good about lock-in?	Jul 23 23:34
Diablo-D3	MinceR: these customers can upgrade to Linux, and be forced to do so.	Jul 23 23:34
MinceR	Diablo-D3: are you a jobs worshipper suddenly? :>	Jul 23 23:34
MinceR	that's easy	Jul 23 23:34
MinceR	let windows die or kill it	Jul 23 23:34
Diablo-D3	Microsoft OS 8	Jul 23 23:34
MinceR	they'll have nowhere to go	Jul 23 23:34
oiaohm	That is your problem Diablo-D3 MS does not have a hardware department.	Jul 23 23:34
Diablo-D3	now with 100% more linux	Jul 23 23:34
Diablo-D3	oiaohm: wrong	Jul 23 23:34
Diablo-D3	oiaohm: xbox is actually a hardware department	Jul 23 23:34
MinceR	but gnu/linux	Jul 23 23:34
oiaohm	Not a good hardware department Diablo-D3	Jul 23 23:34
Diablo-D3	it still exists	Jul 23 23:35
fewa	MinceR, or free it, but the problem with that is there would be too many security holes, would be embareesing	Jul 23 23:35
MinceR	it would be more useful if that hw department did nothing	Jul 23 23:35
oiaohm	MS does not make its own chips Diablo-D3	Jul 23 23:35
Diablo-D3	fewa: nope	Jul 23 23:35
fewa	and loss profit	Jul 23 23:35
Diablo-D3	I'd opne source windows	Jul 23 23:35
oiaohm	It aquires them.	Jul 23 23:35
MinceR	the xbox is about as reliable as windows	Jul 23 23:35
oiaohm	So funding IBM.	Jul 23 23:35
Diablo-D3	after I kill it	Jul 23 23:35
fewa	ive thought open sourcing iwndows would be the best move	Jul 23 23:35
fewa	only thing that would save it	Jul 23 23:35
oiaohm	MS is funding there killers.	Jul 23 23:35
Diablo-D3	ENOUGH	Jul 23 23:35
Diablo-D3	no more talking about this	Jul 23 23:35
MinceR	i'd release windows under GPLv3 so the wine team can dissect it	Jul 23 23:35
oiaohm	Companies that have good reason to hate MS.	Jul 23 23:36
Diablo-D3	I thought I could get through a day without hating microsoft	Jul 23 23:36
Diablo-D3	Thanks for ruining that, guys.	Jul 23 23:36
MinceR	once again, what is there not to hate about m$?	Jul 23 23:36
oiaohm	You may be able to change MS.	Jul 23 23:36
oiaohm	The problem is changing everyone else.	Jul 23 23:36
Ng	there's no point hating a company, that's just ridiculous	Jul 23 23:36
oiaohm	who is also out for greed.	Jul 23 23:36
Ng	disagree with them, don't use their products, but hate?	Jul 23 23:36
MinceR	yes, hate	Jul 23 23:36
fewa	^	Jul 23 23:36
fewa	whoops	Jul 23 23:36
MinceR	all their efforts are focused on destroying something i like	Jul 23 23:36
MinceR	simply because they can't do anything useful	Jul 23 23:37
oiaohm	IBM and Orcale are out for money.	Jul 23 23:37
Ng	so ignore them :)	Jul 23 23:37
MinceR	they're criminals	Jul 23 23:37
oiaohm	Killing MS would be proftiable.	Jul 23 23:37
MinceR	criminals shouldn't be ignored	Jul 23 23:37
MinceR	they should be stopped and punished	Jul 23 23:37
Ng	they have been punished for some things	Jul 23 23:37
MinceR	not adequately	Jul 23 23:37
MinceR	they were fined some lunch money	Jul 23 23:37
MinceR	and they gleefully kept on doing the same thing	Jul 23 23:38
oiaohm	Issue for IBM and Orcale they need a operational replcement.	Jul 23 23:38
MinceR	they should be gleefully punished for it.	Jul 23 23:38
Diablo-D3	this is why I was rich btw	Jul 23 23:38
Diablo-D3	I'd just buy microsoft	Jul 23 23:38
Ng	I want free software to win by being better and more popular, not because of revenge against nasty big microsoft	Jul 23 23:38
oiaohm	Once they have that MS is in big trouble.	Jul 23 23:38
*faux (n=user@1-1-4-21a.gkp.gbg.bostream.se) has left #boycottnovell ("ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)")		Jul 23 23:38
MinceR	Ng: are you implying that free software isn't better?	Jul 23 23:38
oiaohm	Why will they keep on buying if they don't need it.	Jul 23 23:38
Ng	MinceR: in some areas it is better, in others it isn't	Jul 23 23:38
oiaohm	Remember orcale and IBM are both lining up to target MS big market Small business.	Jul 23 23:38
MinceR	i don't want to take revenge on m$, i want to take revenge on the criminals who lead it that way	Jul 23 23:38
MinceR	and i want the others to lose their jobs	Jul 23 23:39
oiaohm	That is why you only have 12 months Diablo-D3.	Jul 23 23:39
MinceR	with a bad cv ("i worked for microsoft")	Jul 23 23:39
Ng	oiaohm: what do IBM/Oracle have to sell to small business?	Jul 23 23:39
Diablo-D3	Ng: everything	Jul 23 23:39
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] EU Government Funding for Free Software Explained http://ping.fm/lEOC9		Jul 23 23:39
Diablo-D3	and they have to capture the small business market now	Jul 23 23:40
Ng	Diablo-D3: I mean specific products	Jul 23 23:40
Diablo-D3	because the economic downturn is over	Jul 23 23:40
Ng	there's staroffice and....?	Jul 23 23:40
Diablo-D3	Ng: servers, dude	Jul 23 23:40
Ng	Diablo-D3: servers running what?	Jul 23 23:40
MinceR	unless we're heading towards the center of a W-shaped recession :>	Jul 23 23:40
Diablo-D3	ibm and sun have idiot proof easy to run servers	Jul 23 23:40
oiaohm	IBM and Orcale are lining up to replace ADS server and the rest of MS server products on stuff running on Linux.	Jul 23 23:40
Ng	small businesses don't care about servers, they care about things that do what exchange/sharepoint/etc do	Jul 23 23:40
Diablo-D3	anyhow, Im done caring about this	Jul 23 23:41
Diablo-D3	let microsoft die	Jul 23 23:41
Diablo-D3	its just not profitable for FOSS for this to happen	Jul 23 23:41
Diablo-D3	FOSS grew because it had a foil	Jul 23 23:41
oiaohm	Yes exchange sharepoint... is what they are lining up to replace Ng	Jul 23 23:41
Diablo-D3	no foil, current FOSS projects become foils for new projects	Jul 23 23:41
oiaohm	MS to die is profitable for FOSS supporting companies.	Jul 23 23:42
oiaohm	Allows them to sell with less overhead.	Jul 23 23:42
fewa	Ng, http://www1.timesofindia.indiatimes.com/India/PMOs-email-system-infected-for-three-months/articleshow/4266663.cms	Jul 23 23:42
MinceR	Diablo-D3: you don't need foils for engineering	Jul 23 23:42
Diablo-D3	http://rss.slashdot.org/~r/Slashdot/slashdot/~3/eLA_A-nul8I/Microsofts-Code-Contribution-Due-To-GPL-Violation	Jul 23 23:42
MinceR	you need knowledge and expertise	Jul 23 23:42
Diablo-D3	MinceR: no, but you need hate in users to convince them to use something	Jul 23 23:42
Ng	oiaohm: I've not seen anything about either IBM or Oracle doing anything on groupware and suchlike?	Jul 23 23:43
MinceR	not really	Jul 23 23:43
Ng	fewa: how is that relevant?	Jul 23 23:43
MinceR	users have needs, those needs can be filled via technology	Jul 23 23:43
Ng	fewa: do you know what they replaced outlook express with? squirrelmail	Jul 23 23:43
oiaohm	IBM and Orcale already have the groupware Ng	Jul 23 23:43
oiaohm	They lack the intergration bit ADS Ng	Jul 23 23:43
Ng	oiaohm: Notes? ;)	Jul 23 23:43
MinceR	Diablo-D3: if really only hate drives them then they shouldn't use anything.	Jul 23 23:43
fewa	Ng, whats wrong with squirrelmail?	Jul 23 23:43
MinceR	it's not a good reason.	Jul 23 23:43
oiaohm	MS sells the bundle ie SBS server Ng.	Jul 23 23:44
oiaohm	That is what holds MS.	Jul 23 23:44
Ng	fewa: it's really not great, but it's still not relevant to groupware and small business systems	Jul 23 23:44
trmanco	http://www.emacswiki.org/emacs-en/visual-basic-mode.el	Jul 23 23:44
trmanco	wow	Jul 23 23:44
Diablo-D3	users have hates	Jul 23 23:44
Diablo-D3	you apparently havent met enough users	Jul 23 23:44
fewa	Ng, Google Wave will eat MS "groupware" for breakfast	Jul 23 23:45
Ng	oiaohm: I'd actually rather use SBS than some hideous car crash of star office and Notes and some ADS replacement	Jul 23 23:45
MinceR	Diablo-D3: i know users have hates, i just don't think that's necessarily what drives technology.	Jul 23 23:45
oiaohm	Do you forget lotus from ibm Ng	Jul 23 23:45
Ng	oiaohm: I've said Notes twice now, so no?	Jul 23 23:45
Ng	fewa: I highly doubt that	Jul 23 23:45
MinceR	the IT industry isn't in a normal state, it's being poisoned by the likes of m$, crApple and adobe.	Jul 23 23:46
Diablo-D3	MinceR: dude, thats bullshit	Jul 23 23:46
MinceR	technical decisions are made by clueless suits instead of engineers.	Jul 23 23:46
Diablo-D3	<ford> I HATE WALKING	Jul 23 23:46
Diablo-D3	TADA, THE CAR	Jul 23 23:46
fewa	Diablo-D3, you mean the horse and buggy	Jul 23 23:46
fewa	get your facts straight	Jul 23 23:46
Diablo-D3	you know what I mean damnit	Jul 23 23:46
MinceR	you're still wrong	Jul 23 23:47
fewa	^	Jul 23 23:47
oiaohm	Ng not everyone will choose like you.	Jul 23 23:47
fewa	history doesnt work like that	Jul 23 23:47
Diablo-D3	no, history loves to gloss over shit	Jul 23 23:47
Diablo-D3	this is the engineering spirit	Jul 23 23:47
Diablo-D3	itches get scratched	Jul 23 23:47
Ng	oiaohm: history suggests that exchange is more compelling than notes	Jul 23 23:47
MinceR	exactly	Jul 23 23:47
Ng	oiaohm: so it seems like people do choose the way I suggest	Jul 23 23:47
MinceR	and that isn't about having some criminal to hate which forces crap on you every day	Jul 23 23:47
fewa	Ng, it seems like the Ng the supreme leader tells people how to think	Jul 23 23:48
MinceR	i'd say the solution that is a non-engineering solution	Jul 23 23:48
oiaohm	Not exact Ng	Jul 23 23:48
MinceR	kill the criminal, live happily ever after.	Jul 23 23:48
oiaohm	Exchange and Outlook combination has been cheeper Ng.	Jul 23 23:48
krenso	bye	Jul 23 23:48
Ng	oiaohm: and better integrated. I've been forced to use both in previous jobs and imho notes was far worse ;)	Jul 23 23:48
oiaohm	The ADS link from Exhange provided better client support.	Jul 23 23:48
oiaohm	ADS has been MS keystone Ng	Jul 23 23:49
*krenso has quit ("Leaving")		Jul 23 23:49
Ng	fewa: you're welcome to think what you like :)	Jul 23 23:49
oiaohm	MS loses control of that.	Jul 23 23:49
oiaohm	Results not nice.	Jul 23 23:49
Ng	fewa: but if you express an opinion you should be able to justify it when I challenge it :)	Jul 23 23:49
fewa	Ng, this goes both ways	Jul 23 23:49
Ng	fewa: of course :)	Jul 23 23:49
oiaohm	Intergration is the issue Ng	Jul 23 23:49
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] Microsoft profits down by a third http://ping.fm/uqlY8		Jul 23 23:49
oiaohm	Problem is IBM and Orcale will be soon playing on the same level as MS.	Jul 23 23:50
oiaohm	Along with others like cisco systems.	Jul 23 23:50
Ng	oiaohm: lotus has had a directory server too for years, Domino	Jul 23 23:50
oiaohm	does not control clients.	Jul 23 23:50
oiaohm	Nice big weakness.	Jul 23 23:50
oiaohm	ADS is not just a directory server if it was it would have given MS no advantage.	Jul 23 23:51
*crunchy135711 has quit (Client Quit)		Jul 23 23:51
oiaohm	Wake up ADS is the keystone that holds the MS system together.	Jul 23 23:52
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[ml2mst] @_Goblin: Great work Goblin! I love your site, visit it almost on a daily base. Keep up the good work!		Jul 23 23:52
oiaohm	Linux has not had a equal keystone for small business usage.	Jul 23 23:53
sebsebseb	oiaohm: keystone? userbase? market share oppertunity? or what did you mean?	Jul 23 23:54
*tacone has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out))		Jul 23 23:54
fewa	Red Hat has been working on it	Jul 23 23:55
fewa	check out freeipa.org	Jul 23 23:55
fewa	also http://www.redhat.com/spacewalk/	Jul 23 23:56
Ng	oiaohm: I'm not trying to downplay ADS, it's certain;y a very important part of microsoft's server offerings	Jul 23 23:56
Ng	anything from ibm/oracle that hoped to take on SBS would have a lot of functionality to replace, including ADS	Jul 23 23:57
Ng	but I've not seen any real indication that they're doing those things. If you have read things I haven't where they talk about it, then fair enough :)	Jul 23 23:57
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[_goblin] @ml2mst Cheers. If you ever want to contribute any articles please feel free to email me.		Jul 23 23:58
Ng	oracle is a database company, sun is a hardware vendor, ibm is a services company	Jul 23 23:58
Ng	well oracle is in the services game too	Jul 23 23:58

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