IRC: #boycottnovell @ FreeNode: August 9th, 2009

taconeyahoo deal meaning. yahoo uses bing's tainted results 09 00:13
_goblinJohn O has quite a potty mouth....Aug 09 00:13
_goblinjust been reading what I believe he would call his "blog"Aug 09 00:14
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taconebtw i can't reproduce the examples givenAug 09 00:16
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[_goblin] Zenwalk 6 article nearly finished....hoping to post it on sunday.Aug 09 00:16
_Hicham_i have to install bingAug 09 00:19
_Hicham_must be a pretty powerful searche engineAug 09 00:19
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_Hicham_it has nearly the same results as googleAug 09 00:21
_Hicham_the proposition in the cited blog are falseAug 09 00:23
_Hicham_bing does its job correctlyAug 09 00:23
_Hicham_like googleAug 09 00:23
_Hicham_bing even loves schestowitzAug 09 00:24
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DaemonFCusing Windows 7, I can't help but notice that the most work has been done on the things that Apple lampooned Vista about in their Get a Mac adsAug 09 00:35
DaemonFCApple will probably fall back to the "viruses and spyware" argument even though they leave remote exploits in OS X unpatched for 6 or 8 months and have trojan horses in the wildAug 09 00:36
DaemonFCviruses and spyware is sort of like the Godwins Law of Windows discussionsAug 09 00:38
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twittercorruption much?  people who made decisions that determined the fate of Detroit dinosaurs also invested in Chinese electric car company 09 01:21
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twitterPower and influence in the US is increasingly measured as the ability to steer US "consumers" to one brand or another of Chinese goods.Aug 09 01:27
DaemonFCno, not just thatAug 09 01:29
DaemonFCto resell it to foreign customers by proxyAug 09 01:29
DaemonFCXBOX 360 for example, made in China, Microsoft's name on it, sold in many countriesAug 09 01:30
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-BNc/#boycottnovell-[popey] This may be news to nobody, but I am happy. Just installed the pae kernel in Ubuntu and now my 32bit machine sees all 8GB of RAM. Yay!Aug 09 01:35
EruaranWindows 7 fails at gamesAug 09 01:40
EruaranCall Of Duty: Modern Warfare - On a Core i7 with Radeon HD 4870 graphics - Game crashes after about 20 minutes without failAug 09 01:41
EruaranAll latest drivers updatedAug 09 01:41
EruaranNo hardware faultsAug 09 01:42
EruaranSame game on the same system on Windows XP - flawlessAug 09 01:42
EruaranI'm hearing from people this is not the only blockbuster game where this is happeningAug 09 01:42
EruaranWay to go Microsoft...Aug 09 01:43
EruaranWhat are they going to do ? Suggest gamers play CoD in "XP mode" ?Aug 09 01:43
EruaranIf Valve are planning to go Linux... Now would be the timeAug 09 01:44
DaemonFCI've had no problems with itAug 09 01:45
DaemonFCI have an Nvidia card thoughAug 09 01:45
EruaranWe've seen issues with Nvidia - but only the very latest high end cardsAug 09 01:46
DaemonFCI have a 9500GT with 1 gig of RAMAug 09 01:46
DaemonFCit's not that oldAug 09 01:46
Eruaranyeah doesn't affect 9500GTAug 09 01:47
Eruaranno problems with 9xxx cardsAug 09 01:47
DaemonFCI've had better gaming performance in 7 than in VistaAug 09 01:47
DaemonFCfaster than XP sometimesAug 09 01:48
EruaranStill... there's enough people experiencing problems for it to be bad PR for MicrosoftAug 09 01:48
twitterThey are going to lie, just like they did for Vista.  Witness this tripe from Mercury News, recently acquired by the Gates Foundation 09 01:58
twitter-> " Vista users will be able to upgrade their machines to Windows 7 without having to re-install their applications. XP users can also upgrade but will have to re-install all their programs. In both cases, Windows 7 will preserve their data files. However, it's strongly recommended to back up data"Aug 09 01:59
twitterhow's that for weasel talk?Aug 09 01:59
_Hicham_DaemonFC the gamerAug 09 02:00
DaemonFCI'm sure it's a driver problemAug 09 02:01
DaemonFCATI makes crap drivers for every platformAug 09 02:01
twitterIt will be fun to make a second collection like this 09 02:01
twitterIt's RTM time, so there might already be a nice pile of grief to watch.Aug 09 02:01
DaemonFCI haven't hit any problems with the RTM buildAug 09 02:02
twitterIt will also be fun to watch everyone apologize for every saying anything nice about Vista 7.Aug 09 02:02
DaemonFCService Packs usually do very little to helpAug 09 02:03
DaemonFCXP was really the outstanding case where they didAug 09 02:03
DaemonFCyou might as well install them cause they are free and do fix a smattering of annoyancesAug 09 02:03
DaemonFCbut if the launch was bad, that release will probably stay badAug 09 02:04
DaemonFCthey don't generally introduce any changes that could create a compatibility problem unless they have toAug 09 02:05
DaemonFCwhich kind of limits what they can fixAug 09 02:05
twitteryep, looks like all sorts of material is already available 09 02:05
DaemonFCtheres one video on that whole pageAug 09 02:06
DaemonFCthat says 7 sucksAug 09 02:06
DaemonFCthat's your argument?Aug 09 02:06
DaemonFCmost of that page are positive reviewsAug 09 02:06
DaemonFCsome of the rest aren't even about Windows 7Aug 09 02:07
DaemonFCone is telling you how to crack itAug 09 02:07
DaemonFCone is about booting it on a Mac ProAug 09 02:07
DaemonFCsearch "Youtube search sucks"Aug 09 02:07
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twitterinteresting 09 02:08
DaemonFCahh, now you cherry pickAug 09 02:08
twittergame failAug 09 02:08
DaemonFCjsut go ahead and say HitlerAug 09 02:08
MinceRgodwin failAug 09 02:09
DaemonFCthat person has a defective chipsetAug 09 02:09
DaemonFCa driver doesn't cause it to do thatAug 09 02:09
MinceReverything is defective, but vista7 is perfect :>Aug 09 02:10
DaemonFCand yeah, OEM laptops usually do need custom drivers from the manufacturer anywayAug 09 02:10
DaemonFCCatalyst never worked with the Radeon 200mAug 09 02:10
DaemonFCevery OEM had to support their own driver for itAug 09 02:10
DaemonFCthe Linux ATI drivers jsut barely worked, for 2dAug 09 02:11
DaemonFCCompaq never issued a Windows Vista version so I had to use the XP driverAug 09 02:11
DaemonFChe should blame shitty technical support from the fly by nights he bought the damned thing fromAug 09 02:11
DaemonFCthat's if it's even a driver issueAug 09 02:12
DaemonFCotherwise he should replace the laptop because the main board is failingAug 09 02:12
twitterI see, someone that I ignore is defending Vista 7?  Ha ha.Aug 09 02:20
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ThistleWebsomeone you ignore? you're gonna have to be a tad more specific, it's like calling Australia and asking for BruceAug 09 02:25
DaemonFCOEMs don't typically have great service after the saleAug 09 02:26
DaemonFCthey figure they've already made their money, it's your problem nowAug 09 02:26
MinceR"OEM laptops"?Aug 09 02:26
DaemonFCwell, the guy buys a laptop from a major company that's known for reliability problemsAug 09 02:27
DaemonFCand then bitches when they don't give him proper supportAug 09 02:27
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EruaranAsus have good warranty serviceAug 09 02:47
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twitterthere is something sadly amusing about this 09 03:03
twitter"We're all criminals"  yeah!Aug 09 03:06
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twitterVista 7 Fail Video Log is launched 09 03:11
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twitterHeartless.  M$ lays off employee waiting for heart transplant - >  Amid Nate's optimism, another bombshell hit. Nate, still waiting for a heart, received a layoff notice from Microsoft. The severance wouldn't occur until Nate returned to work, so the family kept its health insurance. But his short-term disability pay from which he drew 60 percent of his salary had been changed to unpaid leave. Nate had good insurance working for MiAug 09 03:21
twitter 09 03:22
twitterGotta save money for executive bonus!Aug 09 03:22
twitterGoth NoT!  Lunatic gunner worked for Gates firm. 09 03:23
twitter->  The gunman who killed three women and himself at a Pittsburgh-area fitness studio Tuesday was an IT systems analyst at a law firm that can trace its roots to the father of Microsoft (NSDQ: MSFT) chairman Bill Gates, according to the man's profiles on social networking sites and other Internet records.Aug 09 03:24
twitterTalk about respect for women.Aug 09 03:24
DaemonFCso?Aug 09 03:24
DaemonFCthey don't owe him thatAug 09 03:25
DaemonFChis condition is far from uniqueAug 09 03:25
DaemonFCvirtually any workplace will fire you if you're being that much of a drain on their health insuranceAug 09 03:25
DaemonFChe's lucky he got to keep thatAug 09 03:25
DaemonFCit's Microsoft, not the March of DimesAug 09 03:26
DaemonFChe should be mad at the assholes who keep blocking the single payer systemAug 09 03:26
DaemonFCif we had a single payer system, no company could get out of assisting their employees in times of illnessAug 09 03:28
twitterThis kind of selfish and cruel behavior is endemic to American culture as preached by big business like M$.Aug 09 03:29
DaemonFCcrocodile tearsAug 09 03:30
DaemonFC:)Aug 09 03:31
DaemonFCalmost no workplace would stand for thatAug 09 03:32
DaemonFCthey'd pretty much do that to him or worseAug 09 03:32
twitterInteresting perspective on last month's "out of band" patches. 09 03:32
DaemonFChint 90% of them would not keep him on their health insurance like Microsoft didAug 09 03:32
DaemonFCthey would leave him to dieAug 09 03:32
twitter->  Eric Schultze, chief technology officer at Shavlik Technologies, said he'd put the seriousness of today's out-of-band patch releases at an 8.   "When I was at Microsoft, there were a couple of issues that we referred to as 'Voldemort,' meaning they were so nasty you didn't even want to speak their names, and this one is kind of like 'Son of Voldemort,'" Schultze said. "You really start to lose confidence in Microsoft's securityAug 09 03:32
DaemonFCtwitter: It's you that have no ideaAug 09 03:33
twitterDo tell?  Start to lose confidence?  ha ha.Aug 09 03:33
DaemonFCyou're either on some kind of welfareAug 09 03:33
DaemonFCor a priveliged childAug 09 03:33
DaemonFCis what it sounds like to me anywayAug 09 03:33
DaemonFCeither that or you're lazy and unmotivated and it's the world's fault you clean toilets at WalmartAug 09 03:34
DaemonFCa lot of people who work don't even ever get offered health insuranceAug 09 03:35
DaemonFCthey work because it beats sleeping on a park benchAug 09 03:35
DaemonFChere you've got some guy that was working at Microsoft, probably made a good salary, should have had some savings if he was any kind of responsible with his money, and he's laid off in a troubled economy while he can't be an effiective employee (NOT fired), and gets to keep his health insurance that Microsoft is probably paying about $400-$500 a month forAug 09 03:37
DaemonFCplus drawing unemployment that Microsoft is paying forAug 09 03:38
DaemonFCthat's gotta be about $400 a week, easily, in Washington StateAug 09 03:38
DaemonFCI don't think he really has it all that bad, and I think you are reading more into this than what is thereAug 09 03:39
DaemonFCmy guess is that he gets the transplant, relaxes and recovers for a while, and goes right back to work when he's readyAug 09 03:39
DaemonFCyou make it sound like the gulag when more than 70% of the world's population doesn't even have it as good as the wrost jobs in the USAug 09 03:40
DaemonFCshort version: quit complainingAug 09 03:40
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DaemonFCI'd like to see Twitter on a Chinese assembly line working 70 hour weeks for 20 cents per hour which gets docked for bad food and dormitory livingAug 09 03:42
DaemonFCyou know they fire pregnant women there?Aug 09 03:42
DaemonFCand if you screw something up and cost them money, they just kill youAug 09 03:42
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DaemonFCI mean literally taken out back and shot in the head by the plant securityAug 09 03:43
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DaemonFCthen there's India where you have to put the legs of your bed in buckets of kerosene at night or else you wake up with bugs the size of Buicks all over youAug 09 03:45
DaemonFCTwitter, you would be begging and screaming to return to your life here if you had to take one day of thatAug 09 03:46
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twitterDell kills 12 netbooks to protect their profits or to protect Winblows? 09 04:25
twitter$300 is still too much for a netbook.,2817,2351345,00.aspAug 09 04:26
twitterfunny how they want more than $500 for the 12 inchAug 09 04:27
twitterI like the smaller sized screen but I can see people wanting a bigger one too.Aug 09 04:27
twittermy X30 has a 12 screen, 4:3 aspect ratio and I like it a lot.Aug 09 04:28
DaemonFClooks like it's an Intel/Dell thingAug 09 04:28
DaemonFC\Microsoft has nothing to do with itAug 09 04:28
DaemonFC12" is allowed for Windows 7 StarterAug 09 04:28
twitterthe EEE PCs 7 inch screen is nice for portability, but a 9 inch screen would also fit.Aug 09 04:29
Diablo-D3thats what your mom saidAug 09 04:29
DaemonFCIntel and Dell don't want cheap netbooks nipping at their more expensive laptopsAug 09 04:29
DaemonFCso they're crippling the netbookAug 09 04:29
twitterWhat M$ really wants to avoid is a market filled with $140 computers that do everything users want, without windows.Aug 09 04:30
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DaemonFCa 10" screen is a toyAug 09 04:31
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DaemonFCI wouldn't go less than 15" on a laptopAug 09 04:31
DaemonFCmy old Canon 386 laptop from 1991 actually was easier on the eyes than these gimmicky netbooksAug 09 04:32
cubezzzguess you don't like zaurus then :)Aug 09 04:32
Diablo-D3wellAug 09 04:33
Diablo-D3I just something 1024 wideAug 09 04:33
DaemonFCI probably wouldn't like anything with less than a gig of RAM and a 10" screenAug 09 04:33
Diablo-D3I dont care how big the screen isAug 09 04:33
DaemonFCit would be too slow and too painful to look atAug 09 04:33
Diablo-D3windows has not been designed to be comfortable at below 1024 for a very long timeAug 09 04:34
Diablo-D3even win95 kinda sucked at 1024Aug 09 04:34
DaemonFC1024 x 768 is doableAug 09 04:34
Diablo-D3well or x 600Aug 09 04:34
DaemonFC1280 x 1024 is OKAug 09 04:34
Diablo-D3a lot of netbook and tiny laptops are 1024x600Aug 09 04:34
Diablo-D3but its not the height of the screenAug 09 04:35
Diablo-D3its the widthAug 09 04:35
DaemonFCthat's why you see these gimicky Linux GUIsAug 09 04:35
Diablo-D3windows UIs typically cram too much shit in to go below 1024Aug 09 04:35
DaemonFCthat don't have a real taskbar or anythingAug 09 04:35
Diablo-D3DaemonFC: hehAug 09 04:35
Diablo-D3thats not so badAug 09 04:35
DaemonFCit's more of a "device" than a computerAug 09 04:35
Diablo-D3I've actually considered making both my gnome panels autohideAug 09 04:35
Diablo-D3and Im on 1920x1200Aug 09 04:35
DaemonFCI couldn't see anyone making one into a primary systemAug 09 04:36
DaemonFCunless all you do is check emailAug 09 04:36
Diablo-D3the problemw ith autohide is I cant change how it worksAug 09 04:36
Diablo-D3I need instantAug 09 04:36
Diablo-D3pops up instantly, hides instantlyAug 09 04:36
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cubezzzgot the zaurus development system up and running, w00tAug 09 05:03
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shreddarHeyAug 09 05:22
shreddaris Roy up?Aug 09 05:23
shreddarAnyone here?Aug 09 05:23
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schestowitzYesAug 09 05:27
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twitterI did like Zaurus, different form, different purpose -> cubezzz: guess you don't like zaurus thenAug 09 05:31
twitterZaurus was a commercial variant of what familiar and other distros were doing with PDAs at the time.Aug 09 05:32
twittertoday we have iPhone, GPS systems and all sorts of other devices that are their direct descendantsAug 09 05:33
twitterOpenMoko has a lot of promiseAug 09 05:34
twitterM$ crushed Sharp here in the US and Sharp never returned.  The M$ PDAs of the era are all shit.Aug 09 05:35
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schestowitzGah.... 09 05:50
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schestowitztwitter: re Bloomberg, I think the US economy is doomed because of a debt that was passed on to the younger generation, which will need to pay back.Aug 09 06:08
schestowitzMy uncle says:Aug 09 06:09
schestowitz> By the way, Obama's popularity among whites is slipping fast.only a 50%Aug 09 06:09
schestowitz> approval rating. My opinion is he deserves more time before we passAug 09 06:09
schestowitz> judgment, perhaps even 12 more months, at which time we will know ifAug 09 06:09
schestowitz> throwing $800 billion dollars at the problem was the cure or the curse forAug 09 06:09
schestowitz> our economic meltdown.Aug 09 06:09
schestowitz>  Big dramaAug 09 06:09
schestowitz> today with the crash of a tourist helicopter and a small plane. No "MiracleAug 09 06:09
schestowitz> on the Hudson" this time.just a terrible catastrophe.Aug 09 06:09
schestowitzFlights appear to have become a lot less safe, which is what one ought to expense upon cost-cutting. Older gear, less inspection.Aug 09 06:09
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loosrlolAug 09 06:29
loosrany news on m$$ front moves against open sauce?Aug 09 06:29
loosralthough they've suffered a devastating defeat  lately for their  contribution of that hyper-v codeAug 09 06:31
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] EliteTorrents Administrator Can Use GNU/Linux Again 09 06:32
schestowitzloosr: yes, more coming soonAug 09 06:37
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] GNU/Linux Ahead of Windows in 64-bit Systems 09 06:37
schestowitzMore posts that isAug 09 06:37
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loosrLMAO!!! 'There's another way to address this problem... switch to linux'Aug 09 06:46
loosrit's interesting to see mainstream pc magazines bashing m$$$Aug 09 06:47
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] Linux 2.6.31 Features Preview 09 06:47
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] K Desktop Environment 4.3 a "Smooth Desktop Experience" , Lancelot in Focus 09 06:54
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] Firefox Already 3.6 Alpha, Review Published 09 06:54
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] Arch Linux Magazine is Born 09 06:58
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-BNc/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] Linux Mint "Gloria" (KDE) Reviewed 09 07:05
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] Review of Ubuntu Derivative Crunchbang 9.04.01 09 07:07
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] Linux Gadgets Run PlayStation Emulator 09 07:08
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] Elonex Onet+ Sub-notebook Runs Only GNU/Linux 09 07:10
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] OOo4Kids Gains Traction ( for Kids) 09 07:13
Diablo-D3oh woahAug 09 07:16
Diablo-D3small problem with that elonexAug 09 07:17
Diablo-D3I'd KILL ENTIRE NATIONS OF PEOPLE to get that in a touch tabletAug 09 07:17
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] Thai Prime Minister Moves to Firefox 09 07:19
Eruaran"I compiled this after getting the necessary mono development tools and kind of balked at the fact the the file I was installing had an extension of .dll. That did not sit well with me."Aug 09 07:31
EruaranarghAug 09 07:31
EruaranI wouldn't touch thatAug 09 07:31
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-BNc/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] Standards Thrive in the Web 09 07:34
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] Intellectual Monopolies Make Unrest 09 07:37
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] Newspapers Fight the Internet and Fight Fair Use 09 07:43
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] Patents Decline Sharply 09 07:45
schestowitzHow the heck does the closest system out ther (iphone) manage to make 'open source' new? Closed system opens door for Apple's iPhone success < >Aug 09 08:00
schestowitzYes, DRM adn remote kill switch... how 'open source'Aug 09 08:00
schestowitzHeh. Microsoft's to use FOSS as 'opportunity...' yeah, right...;jsessionid=ZCI4DTU24MRUTQE1GHPSKH4ATMY32JVNAug 09 08:06
Eruaranmeh, he lost me at, "APPLE’S SUCCESS with the iPhone makes no sense"Aug 09 08:55
EruaranSuch a dumb opening statement can only go downhill from thereAug 09 08:56
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EruaranHello PetoKrausAug 09 08:56
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schestowitzEruaran: Apple succeeded with it financiallyAug 09 09:18
schestowitzHype helpedAug 09 09:18
*schestowitz just finished watching 09 09:19
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satiperaI just wanted to reply to what Diablo said yesterday. He said "I dont _want_ dumb people using linux". Really you should just keep your stupid foul mouth closed. People like you are the last thing Linux needs.Aug 09 09:29
Diablo-D3Heh.Aug 09 09:29
Diablo-D3Yes, obviously, the last thing Linux needs is people who used it before everyone else did. Thats totally the solution.Aug 09 09:30
Diablo-D3Let me go email Linus its time for him to leave tooAug 09 09:30
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Diablo-D3the trolls come in, the trolls go outAug 09 09:30
schestowitzNo, you're being a jerkAug 09 09:38
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-BNc/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] Journalists Suggest Banning Windows, Maybe Suing Microsoft Over DDoS Attacks 09 10:11
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*DaemonFC smacks Twitter around with a copy of Windows MeAug 09 10:32
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-BNc/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] Beware the Microsoft Bearing Gifts 09 10:37
*DaemonFC wonders why anyone would need a 64-bit web browserAug 09 10:46
oiaohmFunny enough there is an advantage for a 64 bit web browser.Aug 09 10:46
DaemonFClike what?Aug 09 10:47
DaemonFCit's not fasterAug 09 10:47
oiaohmhttps sites process better.Aug 09 10:47
oiaohmIe the decrypt and encrypt side of https is on 64 bit.Aug 09 10:47
DaemonFC"We chose Linux as our initial platform in response to... the fact that Linux distributions do not ship with a comprehensive 32-bit emulation layer by default."Aug 09 10:48
DaemonFCthat's about as good a reason as anyAug 09 10:48
DaemonFCAdobe on 64-bit FlashAug 09 10:49
oiaohmSame applies to appache as well.Aug 09 10:49
Diablo-D3lolwhat?Aug 09 10:49
Diablo-D3apt-get ships with a great 32-bit emulation layerAug 09 10:49
Diablo-D3ia32-apt-get install awesomeshitAug 09 10:49
oiaohmIts not complete Diablo-D3Aug 09 10:50
DaemonFCThe Windows On Windows layer runs 32-bit applications just as well as 32-bit Windows doesAug 09 10:50
Diablo-D3well, not shipAug 09 10:50
DaemonFCsometimes fasterAug 09 10:50
Diablo-D3I can apt-get it thoughAug 09 10:50
DaemonFCI don't know why you'd need a 64-bit browserAug 09 10:50
Diablo-D3DaemonFC: because its fasterAug 09 10:50
Diablo-D332-bit on a x86-64 processor is a nightmareAug 09 10:50
Diablo-D3on average, its about 15% slowerAug 09 10:50
DaemonFCobviously if the need was tehre, then I mean they've already had almost 5 years of 64-bit Windows versions of IE and FirefoxAug 09 10:50
DaemonFCwrongAug 09 10:51
MinceRinteresting, that's not the story i've heard about the winblows 32bit emulation layer. :>Aug 09 10:51
DaemonFCthe difference is at most, 1%Aug 09 10:51
Diablo-D3MinceR: actuallyAug 09 10:51
Diablo-D3the 32-bit emulation layer works fineAug 09 10:51
oiaohmDepends on what you are doing.Aug 09 10:51
Diablo-D3you just need 32 bit libs for everythingAug 09 10:51
DaemonFCI run games in the WOW compatibility layer all the timeAug 09 10:51
DaemonFCand they don't suffer any performance problemsAug 09 10:51
oiaohm128 bit public key encryption  or better you do see the difference.Aug 09 10:52
Diablo-D3its a nonissue except for the basic "dont use 32bit" problemAug 09 10:52
oiaohmAre games doing encryption DaemonFCAug 09 10:52
oiaohmAnswer no.Aug 09 10:52
DaemonFCthey're doing more CPU intensive tasks than a web browserAug 09 10:52
Diablo-D3DaemonFC: and btw, there is performance problems... its just that virtually all games dont depend on the CPUAug 09 10:52
oiaohmDoes not matter DaemonFCAug 09 10:52
DaemonFCthere are a few native 64-bit games availableAug 09 10:52
Diablo-D3most games depend on the GPUAug 09 10:52
DaemonFCthey don't perform better thoughAug 09 10:52
oiaohmThey are not doing tasks than gain from 64 bit  DaemonFCAug 09 10:52
oiaohmencryption masivelly gains.Aug 09 10:52
Diablo-D3x86-64 _does_ have a penaltyAug 09 10:53
Diablo-D3periodAug 09 10:53
DaemonFC64-bit binary does not mean it's fasterAug 09 10:53
Diablo-D3you can't argue it doesn'tAug 09 10:53
oiaohmBy almost a factor of 4.Aug 09 10:53
DaemonFCin fact, they usually aren'tAug 09 10:53
Diablo-D3DaemonFC: actually, it basically doesAug 09 10:53
DaemonFCnoAug 09 10:53
DaemonFCthere's only a few applications that can benefit at allAug 09 10:53
DaemonFCand that's marginallyAug 09 10:53
oiaohmNot marginally.Aug 09 10:53
DaemonFCRosetta@Home runs slightly fasterAug 09 10:53
DaemonFCmaybe 3-5%Aug 09 10:53
DaemonFCthat's the outstanding caseAug 09 10:53
Diablo-D3both k8/k10s and c2/i7s do emulation with microcodeAug 09 10:54
oiaohm64 bit apache ssl sites about 20 percent more load takeable.Aug 09 10:54
DaemonFCthe main point of X86-64 is more memoryAug 09 10:54
Diablo-D3DaemonFC: not reallyAug 09 10:54
DaemonFCdoes your browser need more than 2 gigs of RAM?Aug 09 10:54
Diablo-D3programs are not filled with pointers.Aug 09 10:54
DaemonFCgod I hope notAug 09 10:54
oiaohmRosetta@home is not pushing the key point.Aug 09 10:54
oiaohmEncryption does.Aug 09 10:54
Diablo-D3only pointers increase in size, nothing else does.Aug 09 10:54
DaemonFCthat's why all encryption software has a Win64 counterpartAug 09 10:54
DaemonFCagain, about 3-5% fasterAug 09 10:54
DaemonFCwoohooAug 09 10:54
oiaohmBrowsers also are using encryption.Aug 09 10:55
Diablo-D3about 15% faster.Aug 09 10:55
MinceRalso, there are extra registers, from which almost all apps can benefit.Aug 09 10:55
oiaohmIt is not 3 to 5 percent.Aug 09 10:55
DaemonFCit is not 15%Aug 09 10:55
oiaohmencyrption is 15 to 20 percent DaemonFCAug 09 10:55
Diablo-D3the average app executes 15% slower using ia32 on x86-64.Aug 09 10:55
DaemonFCit's completely marginalAug 09 10:55
Diablo-D3DaemonFC: do you do drugs?Aug 09 10:55
Diablo-D3seriously, shut the fuck up already.Aug 09 10:55
DaemonFCwithout the extra memory addressing, X86-64 would have no reason to existAug 09 10:55
Diablo-D3DaemonFC: why keep bringing that up?Aug 09 10:55
oiaohmSome encryptions are up to 200 percent faster.Aug 09 10:55
Diablo-D3x86-64 processors _do not have circuitry dedicated to ia32_Aug 09 10:56
oiaohmOn 64 bit compared to 32.Aug 09 10:56
DaemonFCbecause some idiots think you need X86-64 web browsersAug 09 10:56
DaemonFCand you really don'tAug 09 10:56
Diablo-D3they do the fixups entirely in microcodeAug 09 10:56
Diablo-D3microcode eats cyclesAug 09 10:56
Diablo-D3period.Aug 09 10:56
oiaohmIf you are visiting https sites a lot the difference is there.Aug 09 10:56
DaemonFCX86-64 is just a supersetAug 09 10:56
oiaohmReally spliting a browser would be good.Aug 09 10:56
DaemonFCit has the entire 32-bit x86 instruction setAug 09 10:56
Diablo-D3oiaohm: Im going to put DaemonFC on ignoreAug 09 10:56
DaemonFCas well as 16-bit x86Aug 09 10:56
Diablo-D3too much trollingAug 09 10:57
oiaohmIe  64 for the encyption and decryption.Aug 09 10:57
oiaohmsome places in the rendering engine of firefox are faster in 32 bit.Aug 09 10:57
DaemonFCthat's why I saidAug 09 10:57
DaemonFCperformance is a washAug 09 10:57
oiaohmSo if you were able to split it you would be able to get max performance.Aug 09 10:57
MinceR121653 < DaemonFC> without the extra memory addressing, X86-64 would have no reason to existAug 09 10:58
DaemonFCand it's not even like Linux users really even get 64-bit Flash anywayAug 09 10:58
MinceRwrongAug 09 10:58
oiaohmNote 20 percent gain is still there.Aug 09 10:58
MinceR 09 10:58
DaemonFCit's missing large pieces of the 32-bit versionAug 09 10:58
oiaohmflash encrypted streaming.Aug 09 10:58
Diablo-D3MinceR: we argued this with DaemonFC beforeAug 09 10:58
Diablo-D3MinceR: he just doesnt listenAug 09 10:58
oiaohmYou do notice the difference there too.Aug 09 10:58
DaemonFCso you have to wrap the 32-bit plugin to get all of Flash's featuresAug 09 10:58
Diablo-D3just ignore himAug 09 10:58
oiaohmIe the gain from the better encyption processing is greater than the rendering loss.Aug 09 10:58
DaemonFCby the time Linux gets a real 64-bit Flash plugin, Windows will have one tooAug 09 10:59
Diablo-D3x86-64 executes ia32 using microcode to fixup, x86-64 has more gp registers, x86-64 does not use significantly more memory bandwidth (raw usage is not an issue ever)Aug 09 10:59
DaemonFCthis thing they have out now is a partially functional novelty itemAug 09 10:59
oiaohmI find that funny.   I use 64 bit version of adobe flash and have not had a single streaming site fail on me.Aug 09 10:59
oiaohmTo be correct way better play back.Aug 09 10:59
DaemonFCit's good enough for YoutubeAug 09 10:59
oiaohmI am not talking not encrypted sites like Youtobe.Aug 09 11:00
Diablo-D3the 15% speed penalty for using ia32 is enough to make me never want to use ia32 ever againAug 09 11:00
oiaohmI am talking the ones that encrypt.Aug 09 11:00
DaemonFCthere is no speed penalty for running 32-bit softwareAug 09 11:00
Diablo-D3MinceR: man, nenolod would rip that kid a new oneAug 09 11:00
DaemonFCit all runs at about the same speed, maybe a bit fasterAug 09 11:00
oiaohmIt does not run faster DaemonFCAug 09 11:01
DaemonFCit's been well established that you can run the CPU in compatibility mode with no ill effectsAug 09 11:01
oiaohmCPU compatibilty mode has a 1 percent hit.Aug 09 11:01
DaemonFCyou people are like the Swift Boaters of WindowsAug 09 11:01
oiaohmDue to slightly heavier context switches.Aug 09 11:01
DaemonFC:PAug 09 11:01
MinceR122029 < DaemonFC> this thing they have out now is a partially functional novelty itemAug 09 11:02
MinceRthat describes flash pretty accurately.Aug 09 11:02
oiaohmHaving remap to a 64 bit kernel is not without its price.Aug 09 11:02
DaemonFCthere is no performance differenceAug 09 11:02
oiaohmThere is a performance difference.Aug 09 11:02
DaemonFC+/- 1% is statistically zeroAug 09 11:03
oiaohmWrong.Aug 09 11:03
Diablo-D3can someone kickban DaemonFC?Aug 09 11:03
oiaohmIts not a statictically difference.Aug 09 11:03
MinceRsomeone can, but he won't :>Aug 09 11:03
DaemonFCDiablo-D3: Swift boaterAug 09 11:03
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] Microsoft Still Says That Linux is Derived from Unix 09 11:03
Diablo-D3DaemonFC: what the fuck does that even meanAug 09 11:04
Diablo-D3do I look like john kerry to you?Aug 09 11:04
DaemonFC,2845,1857478,00.aspAug 09 11:04
oiaohmWindows hiddes the speed hit DaemonFCAug 09 11:05
DaemonFCthat was from when XP x64 was just outAug 09 11:05
DaemonFCperformance is identicalAug 09 11:05
Diablo-D3who cares about windowsAug 09 11:05
oiaohmHow simple basic old style thunking.Aug 09 11:05
Diablo-D3use an OS that actually works and then do the benchmark yourselfAug 09 11:05
oiaohm32 bit program does a call end it ends up processed by a 64 bit libs.Aug 09 11:05
DaemonFCDiablo-D3: Swiftboaters, don't remember them?Aug 09 11:05
Diablo-D3DaemonFC: all I know is you're talking out your assAug 09 11:05
oiaohmThat hides the true speed hit that is going on.Aug 09 11:05
DaemonFCthey used any unfair or untrue claim against John Kerry they could get on the air back in 2004Aug 09 11:05
oiaohmNow linux on the other hand.  32 bit goes to pure 32 bit code.Aug 09 11:06
DaemonFCthey jsut threw everything at the wall and tried to make it all stickAug 09 11:06
oiaohmNo speed gain from where 64 bit is better.Aug 09 11:06
oiaohmSo 32 bit is slower.Aug 09 11:06
DaemonFCthat's you guysAug 09 11:06
Diablo-D3DaemonFC: how so?Aug 09 11:06
Diablo-D3you're doing the same things to usAug 09 11:06
oiaohmBecause the speed hit of running 32 bit on cpu is displayed without masking.Aug 09 11:06
Diablo-D3we say "x86-64 emulates ia32 in microcode, there is no dedicated circuitry in the design"Aug 09 11:06
DaemonFCif Windows cured death, you'd find some way to fault itAug 09 11:06
Diablo-D3we say "x86-64 has more gp registers, ia32 is positively register starved"Aug 09 11:07
DaemonFCyou can't have a rational discussion with someone in that mindsetAug 09 11:07
Diablo-D3we say "x86-64 natively is 15% faster due to the above reasons"Aug 09 11:07
DaemonFCin some cases, it can beAug 09 11:07
oiaohmDaemonFC:  you cannot make a correct rational discussion if you don't under stand the why numbers are particual reasons.Aug 09 11:07
DaemonFCthat's rareAug 09 11:07
Diablo-D3we say "x86-64 natively uses 5% more memory, not twice as much"Aug 09 11:07
Diablo-D3so what the fuck do you want DaemonFC?Aug 09 11:07
oiaohmOn Linux systems that 15 percent greater is more common.Aug 09 11:07
DaemonFCI'd like for you to show me where a benchmark suite is 15% slower because it's the 32-bit x86 versionAug 09 11:08
oiaohmThat is the problem DaemonFC you have cross platforms.Aug 09 11:08
DaemonFCI mean just a battery of testsAug 09 11:08
DaemonFCall kindsAug 09 11:08
Diablo-D3windows is slow on _all_ platformsAug 09 11:08
DaemonFCand point out where 32-bit does significantly worseAug 09 11:08
Diablo-D3oiaohm: btw, you know what would be nice? dynamic recompilationAug 09 11:08
oiaohmDig up encryption bench marks DaemonFCAug 09 11:08
oiaohmPure 64 and pure 32 encryption bench marks.Aug 09 11:09
DaemonFCdynamic recompilation is slower than native support for the instruction setAug 09 11:09
DaemonFCit's for something like PPC to x86Aug 09 11:09
Diablo-D3anyhow, Im putting DaemonFC on ignore, I have fucking work to doAug 09 11:09
DaemonFCnot x86 to x86Aug 09 11:09
DaemonFC:PAug 09 11:09
Diablo-D3I dont have time to deal with some fucking kid who doesn't even know how fucking shit worksAug 09 11:09
DaemonFCit's obvious you don't knowAug 09 11:09
oiaohmOther areas that show difference is video transcoding and lots of forms of database processing.Aug 09 11:09
DaemonFCthere's a few esoteric improvements in the architectureAug 09 11:09
Diablo-D3DaemonFC: and you fucking numbnuts, what the fuck do you think the microcode in the cpu is doing? its dynamic recompilationAug 09 11:10
oiaohmAll in 64 bit favour DaemonFCAug 09 11:10
DaemonFCit's not really worth commenting on except that you get more memory addressesAug 09 11:10
oiaohmReally we need the arm style 64 bit.Aug 09 11:10
Diablo-D3oiaohm: wouldnt help armAug 09 11:10
oiaohmWhere you have 64 bit code and 32 bit code blocks mixed.Aug 09 11:10
oiaohmOne instruction in stream switches between 64 and 32 bit.Aug 09 11:10
Diablo-D3yeah, you could do reverse-thumbAug 09 11:10
Diablo-D3but ARM apps dont need more than 4 gigs yetAug 09 11:10
DaemonFC"x86-64 is a superset of the x86 instruction set architecture. Therefore, x86-64 processors can run existing 32-bit or 16-bit x86 programs without sacrificing speed or compatibility, and in addition, they support new programs written in an extended instruction set, which features a 64-bit address space and other capabilities."Aug 09 11:11
oiaohmEncryption processing.Aug 09 11:11
Diablo-D3not really....Aug 09 11:11
oiaohmis the main reason arm has done it.Aug 09 11:11
DaemonFC" run existing 32-bit or 16-bit x86 programs without sacrificing speed or compatibility"Aug 09 11:11
Diablo-D3you'd use multiple ARMs.Aug 09 11:11
DaemonFC:)Aug 09 11:11
DaemonFC 09 11:11
Diablo-D3oiaohm: thumb is nifty thoughAug 09 11:11
oiaohm64 bit wide is a major advantage on numbers of operations you have to do.Aug 09 11:11
Diablo-D3but I don't want 64-bit ARM yetAug 09 11:11
Diablo-D3I _do_ want desktop ARMs firstAug 09 11:12
DaemonFC"x86-64 is backwards compatible with 32-bit code without any performance loss."Aug 09 11:12
oiaohmThe issue is that you cannot mix code DaemonFCAug 09 11:12
DaemonFC"Since the basic instruction set is the same, there is almost no performance penalty for executing x86 codeAug 09 11:12
Diablo-D35Ghz quad core ARMs hooked up to HTAug 09 11:12
oiaohmCode must be either 64 or 32 bit and to access between you must context switch with x86-64Aug 09 11:12
Diablo-D3(they have ARM on hypertransport now, btw)Aug 09 11:12
oiaohmAnd context switch is not priceless.Aug 09 11:12
DaemonFC" 09 11:12
Diablo-D3oiaohm: costlessAug 09 11:12
oiaohmIt costs.Aug 09 11:12
Diablo-D3priceless means something else ;)Aug 09 11:13
DaemonFCX86-64 CPUs are designed to be ran in Long ModeAug 09 11:13
DaemonFC 09 11:13
DaemonFCand most X86-64 processors don't support 64-bit memory addressingAug 09 11:14
DaemonFCin fact I'm not sure that any of them do yetAug 09 11:14
oiaohmcompatibility sub-mode has to be switched in and out of DaemonFCAug 09 11:14
oiaohmThat can only be done by ring 0Aug 09 11:14
DaemonFCthey all use 48-bit memory addressingAug 09 11:14
oiaohmSo context bugger switch.Aug 09 11:15
DaemonFC36-bit addressing can be achieved in PAE mode on a 32-bit kernelAug 09 11:15
Diablo-D3oiaohm: just quit talking to himAug 09 11:15
DaemonFCthat gives you more than enough RAM right thereAug 09 11:15
Diablo-D3its not worth itAug 09 11:15
oiaohmArms don't need ring 0 to change bit width mode so not speed hit.Aug 09 11:15
DaemonFCARM is a toy architectureAug 09 11:16
oiaohmBasically there is not speed hit on a x86-64 running in real mode not protected.Aug 09 11:16
DaemonFCit will never be popularAug 09 11:16
oiaohmToo late to say that.Aug 09 11:16
MinceR640k will be enough for everyone.Aug 09 11:16
oiaohmThere are more arm chips sold per year than x86.Aug 09 11:16
DaemonFCit'll ship a few sub-par noveltiesAug 09 11:16
DaemonFCat cut rate pricesAug 09 11:16
DaemonFCbut it's not competitiveAug 09 11:16
oiaohmFew?Aug 09 11:16
oiaohmA market worth more than the PC market.Aug 09 11:17
MinceRactually what ARM ships is a RISC architecture that handles the memory/cache bandwidth issue of RISC somewhat (if not entirely) and uses less power than x86 :>Aug 09 11:17
DaemonFCa lot of cheap no names are trying to go with ARM because they can run Linux on themAug 09 11:17
MinceRthat's not a good reasonAug 09 11:17
DaemonFCit won't ever be huge because no commercial software will ever do ARMAug 09 11:18
MinceRthey could run Linux on anythingAug 09 11:18
oiaohmDell intergrated a arm chip into some of there laptops.Aug 09 11:18
MinceRkeep looking for the reason, DaemonFCAug 09 11:18
DaemonFCand so you're just stuck with whatever can be ported with LinuxAug 09 11:18
oiaohmFor battery life reasons.Aug 09 11:18
oiaohmIe 8 times the battery life running arm compared to the x86 chips.Aug 09 11:18
DaemonFCand that does not even include FlashAug 09 11:18
oiaohmThere is a adobe arm version of flash.Aug 09 11:18
oiaohmFor Linux.Aug 09 11:18
DaemonFCmost people would consider Linux on ARM to be broken and less functionalAug 09 11:18
DaemonFCjust because they can't use Wine on itAug 09 11:19
oiaohmIncorrect there as well.Aug 09 11:19
DaemonFCmuch less FlashAug 09 11:19
Diablo-D3heh, get thisAug 09 11:19
Diablo-D3every HD you ownAug 09 11:19
oiaohmWine works slowly on arm.Aug 09 11:19
Diablo-D3probably has an ARM in itAug 09 11:19
*PetoKraus (n=pk@fsf/member/petokraus) has joined #boycottnovellAug 09 11:19
oiaohmUnder qemu.Aug 09 11:19
DaemonFCover 38% of Linux users admit they use WineAug 09 11:19
DaemonFCso that's not going to be an easy sell, switching them to an incompatible CPU lineAug 09 11:19
oiaohmFor what DaemonFCAug 09 11:19
oiaohmMost Linux users use wine for games.Aug 09 11:19
DaemonFCnot just thatAug 09 11:20
oiaohmIts mostly that.Aug 09 11:20
DaemonFCcompanies run Photoshop and MS Office on itAug 09 11:20
DaemonFCthere's no real open source answer to PhotoshopAug 09 11:20
oiaohmNot everyone needs Photoshop.Aug 09 11:20
DaemonFCGimp might correspond to the light versions of itAug 09 11:20
oiaohmFor lot of tasks arms longer battery life beats any other need.Aug 09 11:21
oiaohmIts also the reason why the dell laptop is hybred.Aug 09 11:21
DaemonFCThe first complaint of any Photoshop user is the Gimp interfaceAug 09 11:21
oiaohmPart arm and part x86Aug 09 11:21
DaemonFCwhich is why for a time, there was a version called GimpshopAug 09 11:21
DaemonFCthat tried to mimic the Photoshop layoutAug 09 11:21
oiaohmArm has its place.Aug 09 11:21
oiaohmHow else are you going to get laptops with like 5 days battery life.Aug 09 11:22
DaemonFCI'm saying, it may be good enough for an email machine that you don't have any real demands onAug 09 11:22
DaemonFCother than to not suck powerAug 09 11:22
DaemonFCbut a Blackberry is still betterAug 09 11:22
oiaohmVideo playback is not bad.Aug 09 11:22
oiaohm48 hours in some of the current arm chips no problems.Aug 09 11:22
DaemonFCI'd rather have a Blackberry than an Arm-based netbook with LinuxAug 09 11:22
DaemonFCand wifi is getting to be passe anywayAug 09 11:23
DaemonFCso the netbook may just be a passing fadAug 09 11:23
oiaohmI would perfer something with a decent keyboard over a blackberry any day.Aug 09 11:23
DaemonFCunless the thigns support 3g cardsAug 09 11:23
DaemonFCeven then, it's bigger than your phone and less capableAug 09 11:23
oiaohmsmartbooks do support 3g cards.Aug 09 11:23
oiaohmAnd can operate with a bluetooth headset.Aug 09 11:23
oiaohmSo carry a laptop and a phone or only carry a smartbook and it does everything.Aug 09 11:24
DaemonFCI get a blackberry, I have a system that fits in my pocket, it's a phone, it does email, it does isntant messaging, it does web browsing, it plays music, it plays videos, and it can do it over the existing cell network or even a satelite linkAug 09 11:24
oiaohmScreen too small to view particular things DaemonFCAug 09 11:25
DaemonFCthe netbook by comparison is several times larger, probably can't do all of that, certainly is more unwieldyAug 09 11:25
oiaohmLike full documents.Aug 09 11:25
DaemonFCthat's why you scrollAug 09 11:25
DaemonFC:PAug 09 11:25
DaemonFCthe netbook is just this thing that you lug around and can't use on the flyAug 09 11:25
oiaohmHave you tried reading a large document on a blackberry.Aug 09 11:26
DaemonFCyou're arguing for 5 1/4" floppy disks and side perforated printer paperAug 09 11:26
DaemonFCwhen you argue netbook over BlackberryAug 09 11:26
oiaohmBlackberrys also don't support head up displays.Aug 09 11:26
DaemonFCthe netbook is a passing noveltyAug 09 11:27
oiaohmIt is supprising how much you can do with a laptop in a back pack if you have set it up right.Aug 09 11:27
DaemonFCin 5 years it'll be "Oh yeah, I remember those"Aug 09 11:27
oiaohmParticularly when you don't have to worry about battery life.Aug 09 11:27
oiaohm4 to 6 hour limits on laptops cripple how you can use them.Aug 09 11:28
DaemonFCmost of the drain on a laptop is the hard diskAug 09 11:28
DaemonFCmost netbooks have a hard diskAug 09 11:28
DaemonFCthe CPU is quite modest next to thatAug 09 11:28
oiaohmAgain wrong badly.Aug 09 11:29
oiaohmLot of power drain is CPU and GPU.Aug 09 11:29
DaemonFCI can maybe see cut rate netbooks doing something in the third worldAug 09 11:30
DaemonFClike the XO laptopAug 09 11:30
DaemonFCthat was probably the best example of cheap hardware on a large scaleAug 09 11:30
DaemonFCbut I'd never own one for personal useAug 09 11:30
oiaohmnetbooks are a halfway location.Aug 09 11:30
oiaohmArm chips don't only exist in netbooks.  They exist in full size dell laptops.Aug 09 11:31
oiaohmThey exist in full size dell laptops due to the power difference.Aug 09 11:31
DaemonFChigh capacity batteries, and improvements to power consumption in general from the chipset makers, Intel/AMD, putting the GPU and CPU on the same chip, transitioning from hard disk to SSDAug 09 11:31
Diablo-D3they exist in seagate harddrivesAug 09 11:32
DaemonFCbefore you know it you'll have 8 hours on a real laptopAug 09 11:32
Diablo-D3they exist in gbas and DSesAug 09 11:32
MinceR124655 < DaemonFC> that's why you scrollAug 09 11:32
MinceRlol failAug 09 11:32
Diablo-D3they exist in microwaves and carsAug 09 11:32
Diablo-D3they exist in watchesAug 09 11:32
oiaohmYou can allready by a dell in arm mode that can do 48 hours DaemonFCAug 09 11:32
DaemonFCnetbooks just represent very asychronous communicationAug 09 11:32
oiaohmYou do have the x86 mode as well.Aug 09 11:32
DaemonFCthey're like the two way pager vs. the cell phoneAug 09 11:32
oiaohmSo when need power you can use x86 mode.Aug 09 11:33
MinceRARM chips also exist in mobile phones :>Aug 09 11:33
oiaohmWhen not use Arm.Aug 09 11:33
oiaohmSo never finding your self out of battery.Aug 09 11:33
oiaohmAlso higher the capacity battery you get the more explosive it is.Aug 09 11:33
DaemonFCput down what you're doing, eyes on the road, can't use it as a cell phone, can't plug it into your car stereo, pull over and use the wifi at the McDonaldsAug 09 11:34
DaemonFCwhat a pain in the assAug 09 11:34
oiaohmThere is a limit to how big a battier can be made.Aug 09 11:34
oiaohmBefore it has to be registered as explosive and not allowed on aircraft.Aug 09 11:34
DaemonFCI think the netbook just so perfectly embodies the kind of thinking that we're moving away fromAug 09 11:34
DaemonFCit probably would have been a hit 10 years agoAug 09 11:35
oiaohmsmartbook idea is to merge phone and laptopAug 09 11:35
DaemonFCright now, about the most popular way to get a netbook, by far, is one that's been subsidized by your cell phone company and has a 3g card in itAug 09 11:35
DaemonFCwhich Linux doesn't usually even understandAug 09 11:35
DaemonFCand they come with XPAug 09 11:35
oiaohmcell phone companies want larger battiery life.Aug 09 11:36
oiaohmReason while you have a flat battery you are not using there serice.Aug 09 11:36
oiaohmSo they are not making money.Aug 09 11:36
DaemonFCwell, tell them that and ask why they're using XP instead of writing Linux drivers for the damned 3g cardsAug 09 11:36
DaemonFCif they wanted better battery life that bad, writing a driver is easier than tossing XP on itAug 09 11:37
oiaohmYou find most of the 3g cards work with current day Linux kernels.Aug 09 11:37
DaemonFCthe truth is, they don't careAug 09 11:37
oiaohmBecause they have written drivers for them.Aug 09 11:37
DaemonFCpeople know XPAug 09 11:37
DaemonFCXP already works, here, today, nowAug 09 11:37
DaemonFCthat's how companies thinkAug 09 11:37
oiaohmNot completely.Aug 09 11:37
oiaohmXP will disappear at some point.Aug 09 11:38
oiaohmWindows Vista and Windows 7 are both power hungery hogs.Aug 09 11:38
DaemonFCI think XP is going to be around for a little while longerAug 09 11:38
MinceR125704 < DaemonFC> right now, about the most popular way to get a netbook, by far, is one that's been subsidized by your cell phone company and has a 3g card in itAug 09 11:38
MinceRthat is, if you prefer being your telco's bitch.Aug 09 11:38
oiaohmSo they have to have a plan B DaemonFCAug 09 11:38
DaemonFCat least til they clear out their stock that doesn't have enough RAM for Windows 7 StarterAug 09 11:38
schestowitzMinceR: or Apple'sAug 09 11:39
oiaohmXP was more power effective than Linux DaemonFCAug 09 11:39
oiaohmXP has got where it has on its merits.Aug 09 11:39
oiaohmNot just because people know it.Aug 09 11:39
MinceRwell, you're crApple's bitch if you buy a crApple product, independently of whether it's subsidized by a telcoAug 09 11:39
DaemonFCI know, I've used XP on several different systemsAug 09 11:39
DaemonFCI wouldn't dream of trying to use Vista on any device that was made to run on a batteryAug 09 11:39
DaemonFCbut Linux also runs a lot of laptops that badlyAug 09 11:39
Diablo-D3[06:59:47] <MinceR> 125704 < DaemonFC> right now, about the most popular way to get a netbook, by far, is one that's been subsidized by your cell phone company and has a 3g card in itAug 09 11:39
Diablo-D3except they dont subsidize a netbookAug 09 11:40
Diablo-D3Ive never seen one do thatAug 09 11:40
DaemonFCthat's their problem then, isn't it?Aug 09 11:40
oiaohmXP won on battery life plan and simple DaemonFCAug 09 11:40
DaemonFCit's quite funny because all these OEMs are using Linux as the Nuclear OptionAug 09 11:40
oiaohmLinux power effectiveness is improving on lots of hardware.Aug 09 11:40
DaemonFCto wrangle deals out of MicrosoftAug 09 11:40
oiaohmASUS never though the eee pc's would ever sell.Aug 09 11:41
oiaohmSo were not worth putting windows on.Aug 09 11:41
DaemonFCwell, the idea of Linux to an OEM is that you really hope you never have to use it, but you keep it around and keep threatening to if MS stops subsidizing WindowsAug 09 11:42
oiaohmNow there is a secound option in the market MS has to drop price.Aug 09 11:42
DaemonFCthat's what these OEMs are all aboutAug 09 11:42
DaemonFCit's why everytime MS won't play ball, you see another Linux netbook, then when MS breaks, they discontinue itAug 09 11:42
oiaohmIf Linux was not a valid option for a segment of market MS could just hold there price up.Aug 09 11:43
DaemonFCLinux is the "or else"Aug 09 11:43
oiaohmMS fears Linux getting a large desktop market share.Aug 09 11:43
oiaohmBecause it just might grow into a too large of a Item to stop.Aug 09 11:44
DaemonFCwhich is why OEMs are using the threat of Linux to get Microsoft to subsidize their hardwareAug 09 11:44
DaemonFCwhich is very cleverAug 09 11:44
oiaohmLike what happened in the server market.Aug 09 11:44
oiaohmSame games were played in the supper computer market DaemonFCAug 09 11:44
DaemonFCit's probably what you or I would do in their positiionAug 09 11:44
oiaohmWhat was the long term out come.Aug 09 11:44
oiaohmAll the closed sources lost in the end.Aug 09 11:44
oiaohmDue to under cutting there profit margins.Aug 09 11:44
DaemonFC"Give us free Windows and $20 to ship YOUR OS"Aug 09 11:44
DaemonFCyou see how funny this situation isAug 09 11:45
DaemonFCMicrosoft has no choice but to pay people to use WindowsAug 09 11:45
oiaohmMS cannot do that for ever.Aug 09 11:45
oiaohmSooner or latter MS will die from doing that.Aug 09 11:45
DaemonFCas long as they have more profitable markets to take the hitAug 09 11:45
DaemonFCthey canAug 09 11:45
oiaohmIs Linux going to disappear no.Aug 09 11:45
oiaohmIts like a virus.Aug 09 11:46
DaemonFCthey're forced to consider the netbook a loss leader just to maintain a presenceAug 09 11:46
oiaohmSlowly covering more and more of MS market.Aug 09 11:46
DaemonFCit would be like Pepsi giving away their product free or paying the grocery store to carry itAug 09 11:46
DaemonFCto keep Coke off the shelfAug 09 11:46
oiaohmBesides Linux is not attacking Windows yet.Aug 09 11:46
DaemonFCthis may work if they have a huge profit margin on DoritosAug 09 11:47
DaemonFC:PAug 09 11:47
oiaohmUbuntu is starting to move down the path of intergrate enterprise support.Aug 09 11:47
DaemonFCit's cost shiftingAug 09 11:47
oiaohmSo soon OEM will start doing the same thing that was done with netbooks in the SBS market.Aug 09 11:47
DaemonFCI don't think you're ever going to see Wndows gone completely from the corporate marketAug 09 11:48
oiaohmSBS market is the source of most of MS income.Aug 09 11:48
DaemonFCwhat a lot of companies that use Linux servers do is keep Windows as a clientAug 09 11:48
MinceRand you see that as immutableAug 09 11:48
oiaohmMost companies still have a windows ads server to manage windows clients.Aug 09 11:48
oiaohmIs client mangement DaemonFCAug 09 11:48
DaemonFCthat's why enterprise Linux vendors are real huge about marketing interoperabilityAug 09 11:49
DaemonFCthey have to work well with WindowsAug 09 11:49
oiaohmIf you can manage Linux clients just as simple as windows and mix windows and Linux clients into a combind network.Aug 09 11:49
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[davidgerard] Stop future DDOS attacks and most spam: ban Windows from the Internet 09 11:49
oiaohmWindows will stay but start being pushed like apple was when windows 95 entered the market.Aug 09 11:49
DaemonFCI really don't see the landscape changing so much as companies using what works best for their particular situationAug 09 11:49
DaemonFCand depending on what that is, it could very well be Linux, Windows, or bothAug 09 11:50
oiaohmLandscape will change a bit.Aug 09 11:50
oiaohmFor the simple reason Linux will get simpler to manage.Aug 09 11:50
DaemonFCone interesting thing I noticed is the WintermAug 09 11:50
DaemonFCI got a chance to play around with those quite a bit, and they are kind of coolAug 09 11:50
DaemonFCWalmart runs their frontline stuff, point of sale, inventory, etc on WindowsAug 09 11:51
DaemonFCbut their database systems are all Red Hat and SuseAug 09 11:51
DaemonFCthere's more interesting Windows embedded devices out there than what most people see, because they aren't necessarily sold to end usersAug 09 11:52
DaemonFCbut the backend stuff is almsot always LinuxAug 09 11:52
oiaohmWe are seeing Linux moving into more front end stuff.Aug 09 11:52
oiaohmThere will be a new blance the question is where.Aug 09 11:53
DaemonFCyou almost never see Linux on any front end, data entry terminalsAug 09 11:53
DaemonFCat least I never haveAug 09 11:53
DaemonFCand I've never seen it running kiosks or vending machinesAug 09 11:53
DaemonFCbut I'm sure that their datacenters use LinuxAug 09 11:54
oiaohmHouse hold tvs with built in PVR hiding a Linux systems.Aug 09 11:54
DaemonFCwhich is an interesting case, btwAug 09 11:54
DaemonFCbecause you can build DRM modules into LinuxAug 09 11:54
DaemonFCwhich is why they use itAug 09 11:54
DaemonFCwhich is why Torvalds won't use GPL 3Aug 09 11:54
oiaohmvending machines some of there are Linux.Aug 09 11:54
DaemonFChe'd scare off a lot of embedded device makers who do contribute Linux related source code changesAug 09 11:55
oiaohmThemed windows.Aug 09 11:55
oiaohmLinux is a hard bugger to spot at times.Aug 09 11:55
DaemonFCnot usuallyAug 09 11:55
DaemonFCuname -a will tel lyou everything you want to knowAug 09 11:56
oiaohmThe locked down vending machines.Aug 09 11:56
DaemonFCreally the market that Linux has killed is not WindowsAug 09 11:56
DaemonFCit's UNIXAug 09 11:56
oiaohmWere you don't get anywhere near the command line.Aug 09 11:56
oiaohmand have hidding boot up processes.Aug 09 11:56
DaemonFChas killed/is killing/will killAug 09 11:56
oiaohmUnix is basically killed.Aug 09 11:56
oiaohmThe strongest are all that are left.Aug 09 11:56
DaemonFCUNIX has been dying a protracted deathAug 09 11:57
DaemonFCmost companies that use it won't be when those systems are replacedAug 09 11:57
oiaohmsolarias will be basically the last one to die.Aug 09 11:57
DaemonFCthey'll go with Linux or Windows as the case may beAug 09 11:57
oiaohmIt has been the most tech advanced of all the Unix's.Aug 09 11:57
oiaohmthere are still a lot of areas solarias beats linux.Aug 09 11:57
DaemonFCSolaris was the hardest to kill because HP and IBM have no stomach to keep pushing HP-UX and AIXAug 09 11:58
DaemonFCand SGI IRIX has been dead for years before SGI diedAug 09 11:58
oiaohmHP-UX and AIX are nothing compared to Solarias in features.Aug 09 11:58
oiaohmSolarias was dominate for a long time.Aug 09 11:58
DaemonFCIBM is mainly pushing Red HatAug 09 11:58
DaemonFCDell is mainly pushing SuseAug 09 11:59
DaemonFCbut they both sell both typesAug 09 11:59
oiaohmBecause Redhat was tech ahead in most places compared to there own AIX.Aug 09 11:59
oiaohmIBM could see the writing on the wall.Aug 09 11:59
DaemonFCso what you have is not the market growingAug 09 11:59
oiaohmThey were toast against SUN with Solarias.Aug 09 11:59
DaemonFCit's the UNIX market dying and Linux and Windows eating it upAug 09 11:59
oiaohmLinux has eating most of the Unix market up.Aug 09 12:00
DaemonFCso much the betterAug 09 12:00
oiaohmVery little went to windows.Aug 09 12:00
DaemonFCI like Windows much more, as a user, than any proprietary UNIXAug 09 12:00
DaemonFCthat's easy to sayAug 09 12:00
oiaohmSo much now Linux is having to look at windows market to keep on expanding.Aug 09 12:00
DaemonFCmost proprietary UNIX systems were user abuse in a big hulking machineAug 09 12:00
DaemonFC:PAug 09 12:00
*magentar ( has joined #boycottnovellAug 09 12:00
oiaohmBasically there is only 1 or 2 percent Unix market left.Aug 09 12:01
oiaohmAnd they require particular tech to take them over.Aug 09 12:01
DaemonFCLinux is cost effiective, Windows is easy to useAug 09 12:01
oiaohmWindows does not have the tech.Aug 09 12:01
oiaohmLinux is working flat out to get the tech.Aug 09 12:01
DaemonFCthat's why I said they use it on clientsAug 09 12:01
DaemonFCit's not realyl good enough to manage a huge datacenterAug 09 12:01
DaemonFCbut it's a fairly user friendly clientAug 09 12:02
oiaohmLinux is getting more user friendly.Aug 09 12:02
oiaohmAs they are running out of server market to eat.Aug 09 12:02
DaemonFCthere is a Windows Datacenter edition, but good luck administering that unless your network is not real bigAug 09 12:02
MinceRwindows is easy to use...for those who have learned windows, and can't be bothered to learn anything else.Aug 09 12:02
DaemonFCyou can realistically expect Windows Datacenter to manage 250-300 clientsAug 09 12:02
MinceRthose people will die of old age though :>Aug 09 12:03
DaemonFCwhere a Linux system can number in the thousandsAug 09 12:03
oiaohmThat is the point.Aug 09 12:03
oiaohmTo take over the Unix market huge scaling was required.Aug 09 12:03
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] Patent Applications Fall, Patent System Criticised, In Re Bilski Returns 09 12:03
DaemonFCNovell does have good remote administrative toolsAug 09 12:03
DaemonFCI've seen a lot of that in actionAug 09 12:03
oiaohmSo Linux completed what it need to do to get the market they were targeting.Aug 09 12:03
schestowitz274 "zombie" processes run on the BN serverAug 09 12:03
schestowitzIs there a way to free up those resources?Aug 09 12:04
DaemonFCit's also compatible with Windows Network Access ProtectionAug 09 12:04
oiaohmNow Linux is targeting phones and other graphical devices user friendlyness is returning.Aug 09 12:04
DaemonFCkill the zombies?Aug 09 12:04
Diablo-D3schestowitz: what are they off?Aug 09 12:04
DaemonFCreboot the server?Aug 09 12:04
MinceRschestowitz: there's a trick with wait() and gdb, iircAug 09 12:04
DaemonFCfind out what is spawning them and fix itAug 09 12:04
schestowitzMinceR: maybe it's harmlessAug 09 12:04
schestowitzIt's just that is uses 2GB of RAM and 2 CPUsAug 09 12:05
Diablo-D3schestowitz: what are they off?Aug 09 12:05
schestowitzAnd having run for 3 weeks it has this growing pile of inactive processesAug 09 12:05
oiaohmDaemonFC:  Linux world is shifting.Aug 09 12:05
DaemonFCoiaohm: That's one reason Microsoft is rolling out the Windows Powershell dealAug 09 12:05
DaemonFCthe Command Line has always lacked any kind of decent scripting supportAug 09 12:05
MinceRonly on windowsAug 09 12:05
schestowitzMy desktop has been up for 3 weeks, with just 132 taksAug 09 12:05
DaemonFCand you can run .Net applications in PowershellAug 09 12:05
MinceRand you can run commands with 3x the typing in powershellAug 09 12:06
MinceRsign me upAug 09 12:06
oiaohmPowershell does not solve the management problems.Aug 09 12:06
DaemonFCa lot of businesses are asking for that because they still run DOS executables for a lot of thingsAug 09 12:06
oiaohmIf anything it makes it worse.Aug 09 12:06
DaemonFCincluding customer managementAug 09 12:06
schestowitzksysguard can manage processes well, DaemonFC Aug 09 12:06
schestowitzhtop tooAug 09 12:06
oiaohmReason power mangement shell is heavy.Aug 09 12:06
DaemonFCit takes quite a while for Powershell to "boot up"Aug 09 12:07
oiaohmYep.Aug 09 12:07
DaemonFCabout 5 seconds on this systemAug 09 12:07
oiaohmNot suitable for running fast scripts.Aug 09 12:07
oiaohm5 seconds is way to long.Aug 09 12:07
oiaohm1 second is iffy.Aug 09 12:07
DaemonFCthey need something that spawns as fast as the command promptAug 09 12:07
oiaohmYep.Aug 09 12:08
DaemonFCbut they can't do that *and* load it down with .Net extensionsAug 09 12:08
oiaohmPowershell is another MS screwup.Aug 09 12:08
DaemonFCso it's really one or the otherAug 09 12:08
oiaohmReally you can.Aug 09 12:08
oiaohmLoad extensions when needed.Aug 09 12:08
oiaohmNot load a huge box and dice on start up.Aug 09 12:08 in dos had the right idea.Aug 09 12:08
DaemonFC 09 12:09
DaemonFCit's quite a beastAug 09 12:09
DaemonFC 09 12:09
DaemonFCit's on 2.0 btwAug 09 12:09
DaemonFC:PAug 09 12:09
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[davidgerard] #Qt 4 is an arse to compile. Compile, fail, make clean, compile, fail somewhere else. Wtf.Aug 09 12:09
oiaohmBasically MS developers are idiots when it comes to design something that works well on command line.Aug 09 12:09
DaemonFCthey should just support PERL and Python and get it over withAug 09 12:10
DaemonFCinstead they implement them as .Net versions like IronPythonAug 09 12:10
oiaohmPERL and Python do it right.Aug 09 12:10
oiaohmLoad core then load extentions as required.Aug 09 12:10
oiaohmIs that such a hard idea.Aug 09 12:10
DaemonFCMicrosoft doesn't do that, they write their own workalike versions to everythingAug 09 12:11
oiaohmThey did in the dos days.Aug 09 12:11
DaemonFCsometimes it catches on, sometimes it doesn't and they still have to support it for the next 10 versions for backwards compatibilityAug 09 12:11
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[davidgerard] Hunter S. Thompson motivators: 09 12:11
oiaohmSimply MS has lost the skill to make a shell.Aug 09 12:11
DaemonFCI made a cmdlet just out of curiousityAug 09 12:12
DaemonFCit makes a playlist and user interface controls for mpg123Aug 09 12:12
DaemonFCit works well enough, but a 5 second lag to start up Powershell as an MP3 player kind of sours the dealAug 09 12:13
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[davidgerard] RT @bletchleypark: Twitter is making a difference! #BPark visitor numbers R significantly UP! So huge thanks 2 U all & pls spread the word!Aug 09 12:13
DaemonFCWinamp loads in under 2 seconds and I get a full GUIAug 09 12:13
oiaohm  << ever used this DaemonFCAug 09 12:13
DaemonFCnopeAug 09 12:14
oiaohmThat is a simplerfied bash.Aug 09 12:15
oiaohmAfter using it you learn how something like powershell should have been done.Aug 09 12:15
DaemonFCwhen Microsoft starts talking about scripting or componentizing things I have to start biting my knucklesAug 09 12:15
DaemonFCbecause it usually turns into a disasterAug 09 12:15
schestowitzOpenOffice users: Just say no to a Microsoft-like Ribbon interface 09 12:16
oiaohmMS really does not want anyone doing the interface right.Aug 09 12:16
oiaohmThe problem with Ribbon is the hide and display system.Aug 09 12:16
oiaohmMaking it insanely hard to learn.Aug 09 12:16
schestowitzMicrosoft snaps up domain Aug 09 12:16
oiaohmTabbed toolbars are a lot older idea than ribbion.Aug 09 12:17
DaemonFCI wonder if the fact that Ribbon works fairly well escaped them in their blind hatred of MicrosoftAug 09 12:17
DaemonFCwho cares what it looks likeAug 09 12:17
DaemonFCit's marketed as a cheap version of MS Office by Sun anywayAug 09 12:17
schestowitzWhy use pages at all?Aug 09 12:18
oiaohmAlso Open office is slightly smarter than MS office.Aug 09 12:18
schestowitzWikis and Web sites work wellAug 09 12:18
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] Reports say that Microsoft bought the domain. So Microsoft is basically 'innovating' Zoho.Aug 09 12:18
schestowitzEven CMSsAug 09 12:18
schestowitzPages need to be abandonedAug 09 12:18
oiaohmThey are not removing the old style menu bar at the same time redesign the toolbars.Aug 09 12:18
schestowitzAnd printing of stuff too is a little sillyAug 09 12:18
Diablo-D3oiaohm: what the hell is wrong with the world today?Aug 09 12:18
Diablo-D3oiaohm: seriously, I'm just running into fucktards all over the internetAug 09 12:19
schestowitzKindle, for example, should not need pagingAug 09 12:19
DaemonFCWordpad can import and export ODF interestingly enoughAug 09 12:19
DaemonFCI have yet to see it botch anythingAug 09 12:19
schestowitzPages are a limitation that used to exist in paper dayAug 09 12:19
schestowitzLike glossary and indexAug 09 12:19
Diablo-D3schestowitz: .........Aug 09 12:19
schestowitzEven biblioAug 09 12:19
oiaohmTables stacked Wordpad kinda gets upset DaemonFCAug 09 12:19
DaemonFCexample document?Aug 09 12:19
DaemonFCI'd like to open it and see for myselfAug 09 12:20
oiaohmIts a limitation even with it opening doc files.Aug 09 12:20
oiaohmWith wordpad.Aug 09 12:20
DaemonFCyou've got your choice of ODF, OOXML, DOC, and RTFAug 09 12:20
schestowitzMicrosoft to fix critical Windows, Office holes < >Aug 09 12:20
Diablo-D3I wonder if I should just disconnect from the internet and only return when everyone gainst their sanityAug 09 12:20
DaemonFCI usually use RTFAug 09 12:21
oiaohmJust don't try opening anything with tables inside tables and expect wordpad to be happy DaemonFCAug 09 12:21
DaemonFCwell, it's not really meant to be a full blown word processorAug 09 12:21
DaemonFCbut it gets the job done well enough in many casesAug 09 12:21
oiaohmThere are a few other things like that.Aug 09 12:21
schestowitz> Aug 09 12:22
schestowitz<Diablo-D3> I wonder if I should just disconnect from the internet and only return when everyone gainst their sanity Aug 09 12:22
schestowitz Well, if  you just disconnect from the internet, then everyone left on the Internet will have sanity :-pAug 09 12:22
oiaohmI cannot remember if they have fixed the transparent stacked images as well.Aug 09 12:22
oiaohmNote items that abiword can process.Aug 09 12:22
DaemonFCI was gonna say, ABIWord usualyl crashesAug 09 12:22
DaemonFCwhen you have tables in tablesAug 09 12:22
DaemonFCformatting them wrong isn't so bad in comparisonAug 09 12:23
oiaohmwordpad also crashes.Aug 09 12:23
oiaohmAbiword can do a few more than wordpad.Aug 09 12:23
oiaohmBottom end gets fun.Aug 09 12:24
schestowitzMore on the ripoff mentioned earlier in BN: 09 12:25
oiaohmI always think its funny one of the early things most people ask me about the Linux command line is for a complete list of commands.Aug 09 12:25
oiaohmReally you don't need the complete list.  Most likely you will never use them all in a life time.Aug 09 12:25
schestowitzHahaha.Aug 09 12:25
schestowitzOne week, only one headline about Vista.Aug 09 12:25
cubezzztput ftw :)Aug 09 12:25
DaemonFCVista is deadAug 09 12:26
DaemonFCand not a moment too soonAug 09 12:26
schestowitzMicrosoft Vista blamed for memory glut 09 12:26
schestowitz"dows 7" - 26 matches foundAug 09 12:26
*cubezzz remembers his Amiga 500 with 1 meg of ramAug 09 12:27
schestowitzMicrosoft Fixes Windows 7 Leak < >Aug 09 12:27
schestowitzWhat do you say? Deliberate negligence?Aug 09 12:27
DaemonFCschestowitz: They haven't stopped itAug 09 12:28
DaemonFCand they can't blacklist itAug 09 12:28
DaemonFCtrust me, it's still working, and will at least until SP1, and by then the rest of the OEM keys will be out thereAug 09 12:28
DaemonFCso blacklisting it won't help themAug 09 12:28
oiaohm  << Basically Linux is sneaking into homes.Aug 09 12:28
oiaohmat the rate Linux is sneeking in the most dominate OS in a house will be Linux even if the users don't know it.Aug 09 12:29
schestowitz"There is collaboration, and there is collusion. According to Digitimes, Microsoft and Intel have reached an agreement that the next generation of Netbooks will not have displays larger than 10.2 inches." 09 12:30
cubezzzok, good, I want a linux based stand-alone dvd player thenAug 09 12:30
oiaohmA few of them exist cubezzz.  Depends were you are if you can get them or not.Aug 09 12:31
cubezzzI'm in CanadaAug 09 12:31
oiaohmMost times you know that ones is one when you find a GPL licence in the paper work.Aug 09 12:32
oiaohmOf course they are using a closed source codec to play the dvd.Aug 09 12:33
cubezzzsometime that could play mkv files would be a plusAug 09 12:33
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[davidgerard] Sign that #Britannica is dead meat: it's turned into a patent troll. #wikipediaAug 09 12:33
cubezzzsomethingAug 09 12:33
oiaohmIe most like tivo'ed so you cannot alter it.Aug 09 12:34
oiaohmJust because something is Linux does not mean it can be retasked.Aug 09 12:34
cubezzzno tivo for me :)Aug 09 12:34
DaemonFClike I saidAug 09 12:34
DaemonFCDRM modulesAug 09 12:34
DaemonFCat least Linus acknowledges he doesn't have the right to dictate hardwareAug 09 12:35
cubezzzI'll probably end up going laptop with tvout -> tvAug 09 12:35
oiaohmMake a media center with like a via or atom board.Aug 09 12:35
oiaohmAnd use a standard drive.Aug 09 12:35
oiaohmLaptop dvd drives don't have a habit of lasting a lot of use.Aug 09 12:36
cubezzzoiaohm, that's definitely trueAug 09 12:36
schestowitzWindows 7 Upgrade Chart Sparks Spat < >Aug 09 12:37
DaemonFCschestowitz, I posted that on ytmndAug 09 12:37
DaemonFC 09 12:38
DaemonFC:PAug 09 12:38
oiaohm  hMM Qbit systems might be robust.Aug 09 12:38
schestowitz Aug 09 12:39
schestowitzXbox 360 saying goodbye to its Pro console?Aug 09 12:39
schestowitz 09 12:40
schestowitzNinja Turtles...Aug 09 12:40
DaemonFCthey need to say goodbye to the consoleAug 09 12:40
DaemonFCthat thing was the biggest disappointment everAug 09 12:41
oiaohmThe question is how long before equal to a xbox 360 is included in the tv screen so ending need for consoles.Aug 09 12:41
DaemonFCI had more fun with their XBOX Live Arcade games than anything released for the 360Aug 09 12:42
DaemonFCif that tells you anythingAug 09 12:42
DaemonFCI found a site called "Good Old Games" that repackages old games to run on modern Windows systems for about the same price as the XBLA versionAug 09 12:42
DaemonFCbut there's no DRM on any of themAug 09 12:42
DaemonFCI'd venture a guess that the same executables would run in Wine just as wellAug 09 12:43
schestowitzZune is dead; many people just don't know it yet. 09 12:43
oiaohmDepends one site out there is dosbox packaged DaemonFCAug 09 12:43
DaemonFCI only know one person that bought a ZuneAug 09 12:43
DaemonFCthey're an OK player if you can snap one up cheaply, like a refurb or open box or somethingAug 09 12:44
oiaohmWine does not run dos games well at all.Aug 09 12:44
DaemonFCthey play MP3 and AAC filesAug 09 12:44
DaemonFCthey're not for DOSAug 09 12:44
DaemonFCthey're Win32 executablesAug 09 12:44
schestowitzThey still try some buzz < > to no availAug 09 12:44
oiaohmI mean using win32 wrapper based on dosbox around a dos executable.Aug 09 12:44
DaemonFCschestowitz: There's like, no HD FM stationsAug 09 12:44
DaemonFCseriouslyAug 09 12:44
DaemonFCwtf are they thinking?Aug 09 12:44
oiaohmI know it barfs in wine.Aug 09 12:44
DaemonFCit's not based on DOSAug 09 12:45
schestowitzDaemonFC: obsessive about expansionsAug 09 12:45
DaemonFCthe games do not use DOS in any wayAug 09 12:45
schestowitzThey should have focused, like Cisco or OracleAug 09 12:45
schestowitzMicrosoft tried to expand and just burned billions online, on XBox, etc.Aug 09 12:45
oiaohmJust be aware that there is one site wrapped like that  DaemonFC if you do find it in my travels tell me I lost the note I had it on.Aug 09 12:45
DaemonFCoiaohm: Most of the DOS-era games just used map packs that plugged into the engineAug 09 12:45
schestowitzThe Roman Empire overstretched tooAug 09 12:45
DaemonFCthe engines have been rewritten for WindowsAug 09 12:46
schestowitzOr Germany trying to go into RussiaAug 09 12:46
DaemonFCthe map packs are OS-neutralAug 09 12:46
oiaohmThere are a lot of old games that have cross platform engines these days too.Aug 09 12:46
DaemonFCthey also have quite a few recent games that flopped for whatever reasonAug 09 12:46
DaemonFCliek Earth 2160Aug 09 12:46
DaemonFCthat's not a bad gameAug 09 12:46
DaemonFCworth the $5Aug 09 12:47
DaemonFCyeah, they use EDuke32 for Duke Nukem 3d: Atomic EditionAug 09 12:47
DaemonFCbut that's been ported to LinuxAug 09 12:47
DaemonFCand MacAug 09 12:47
DaemonFCand even OS/2 I believeAug 09 12:47
oiaohmAnd javaAug 09 12:48
oiaohmfor phones DaemonFCAug 09 12:48
DaemonFCbefore DirectX, writing for DOS was the only way to get decent performanceAug 09 12:48
oiaohmYes Duke Nukeem 3d on phones.Aug 09 12:48
oiaohmKinda wrong.Aug 09 12:48
DaemonFCit was so embarassing that Microsoft considered BUYING id SoftwareAug 09 12:48
DaemonFCto port Doom to DirectXAug 09 12:48
DaemonFCas a tech demonstrationAug 09 12:48
DaemonFC 09 12:49
DaemonFCBill Gates in DoomAug 09 12:49
DaemonFChe's a horrible shot tooAug 09 12:53
DaemonFC:PAug 09 12:53
Diablo-D3oiaohm: are you _still_ going on about that?Aug 09 12:54
Diablo-D3wow dudeAug 09 12:54
schestowitzDavid Coursey  trolling... 09 12:54
DaemonFC2-3 shots to kill a Shotgun GuyAug 09 12:55
DaemonFCI almost always get them in 1Aug 09 12:55
Diablo-D3schestowitz: I think hes just misremembering historyAug 09 12:57
schestowitzCluelessness IMHO: 09 12:57
DaemonFCactually, without the Microsoft stock purchase, Apple would have gone bankrupt around 1998Aug 09 12:57
DaemonFCthere were a number of reasons Microsoft saved Apple, one was that they couldn't let their only credible competitior die when the antitrust thing was about to go to courtAug 09 12:59
DaemonFCthe other is that they got a lot of concessions from Apple, including bundling IE instead of NetscapeAug 09 12:59
oiaohmIf MS had not saved apple where would lot of MS design ideas come from.Aug 09 13:02
oiaohmMS complains about Linux being copy cat they are just as bad.Aug 09 13:03
DaemonFCApple doesn't design as much as they say they doAug 09 13:03
DaemonFCthey've ripped just as much off of WindowsAug 09 13:03
DaemonFCincluding desktop widgetsAug 09 13:03
DaemonFCthat was in Windows first if you followed the development buildsAug 09 13:04
DaemonFCover a full year before OS X had themAug 09 13:04
DaemonFCKDE didn't even have them til what? 2007?Aug 09 13:04
oiaohmLOLAug 09 13:06
oiaohmYou are many years out with KDE.Aug 09 13:06
DaemonFCKDE apes WindowsAug 09 13:06
DaemonFCwhich apes MacAug 09 13:06
DaemonFCfor the most partAug 09 13:06
DaemonFCthey all introduce new things, but that's the way it tends to flowAug 09 13:06
oiaohmThey were a addon kit to KDE 3.5 in the first year after its relase.Aug 09 13:06
oiaohmThat is a long way back.Aug 09 13:07
oiaohmplasma is a reworked form.Aug 09 13:07
DaemonFCGNOME is kind of like your brain on drugsAug 09 13:07
DaemonFCI have no idea how GNOME is getting corporate acceptance if it's not even suitable for power users at homeAug 09 13:08
schestowitzEwww. 09 13:09
oiaohm  << desktop widgets kde 2003  DaemonFC for KDE 3.5Aug 09 13:10
oiaohmYet its even older than that for KDE.Aug 09 13:10
DaemonFCWe are the Borg. You will be assimilated. Your biological and technological distinctiveness will be added to our really tripped out LSD-induced cube.Aug 09 13:10
DaemonFC:PAug 09 13:10
oiaohmYes KDE had desktop widgets when XP was released.Aug 09 13:10
oiaohmThis is the problem DaemonFC lot of people don't know the history of where things has come from.Aug 09 13:11
oiaohm2007 is the plasma rewrite of the desktop widgets for kde.Aug 09 13:12
schestowitzIs this an AstroTurf? Microsoft hired LawMedia to battle the Google/Yahoo! deal, and they used Hispanic grassroots, IIRCAug 09 13:13
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DaemonFCminority special interest groupsAug 09 13:15
DaemonFCyou obviously have no idea how corrupt they all areAug 09 13:16
DaemonFCAARP, NRA, etc.Aug 09 13:16
oiaohm  << This is the start of desktop widgetsAug 09 13:17
oiaohma long forgoten company that produced a product for windows that is now dead DaemonFCAug 09 13:18
schestowitzIs Apple More Evil Than Microsoft? < >Aug 09 13:18
schestowitzApple attacks Linux less, thoughAug 09 13:18
oiaohmWindows first prototypes was 2004 for desktop widgets.Aug 09 13:18
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[popey] Failed disk in laptop. WD DOS diags cant even see it (linux can). Gonna DBAN it and see if that works. If not RMA, if it does, reinstall.Aug 09 13:18
oiaohmFrom MS.Aug 09 13:18
DaemonFCStardock makes that stuff for MicrosoftAug 09 13:18
DaemonFCthey licensed Dreamscene evenAug 09 13:18
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[popey] DBAN says 6.5 hours to wipe a 300GB SATA disk (model WD3200BEVT-2) dunno if this is good or bad.. will leave it and see..Aug 09 13:19
oiaohmIt was not MS that invented it.Aug 09 13:19
oiaohmNeither did Stardock.Aug 09 13:19
oiaohmThe source of the invention is long gone.Aug 09 13:20
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oiaohmMost of thing people hold up as MS first are bits scanvages from the corpses of dead companies.Aug 09 13:24
oiaohmKDE is planing a first in the widget department.  Transferable widgets.Aug 09 13:26
schestowitzEnderle is Microsoft spokesman now..? He has this heap of reproductions of Microsoft speeches, like he's an employee or something;Aug 09 13:27
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schestowitzNvidia loss reflects lingering chip defect issue 09 13:44
schestowitzOk, so Microsoft's loss over 2k+ more employees seems imminent: 09 13:46
schestowitzProfit up, sales down at CSC 09 13:46
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[davidgerard] #ubuntu #netbook help needed; @redcountess has broken desktop by disabling Clutter. How to re-enable from failsafe?Aug 09 13:48
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-BNc/#boycottnovell-[davidgerard] can't tweet from firefox or arora, can from opera. wtf.Aug 09 13:49
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-BNc/#boycottnovell-[davidgerard] Official MS Windows upgrade chart: Here's the Mac version: 09 13:51
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DaemonFChe forgot to mention that if you skipped Leopard, Apple is charging over 4 times as much to upgrade to Snow LeopardAug 09 13:52
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[davidgerard] - Freda knows she has to wear shoes to go outside ... Mum's will do! She has our attitude to rules ...Aug 09 13:53
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schestowitzHeh. 09 13:55
schestowitzSee Linux upgrade chart, with 1000 distrosAug 09 13:55
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schestowitzChoice galore, BUT... everything (almost) is freeAug 09 13:55
schestowitzMuppet.... 09 13:56
DaemonFCTiger to Snow Leopard is $129Aug 09 13:56
DaemonFCLeopard to Snow Leopard is $29Aug 09 13:56
DaemonFCWindows Vista Home Premium to Windows 7 Home Premium is $119, or $50 if you preorderedAug 09 13:57
DaemonFCbut it's the same price for XP usersAug 09 13:57
DaemonFCso Apple is actually ripping you off early and oftenAug 09 13:57
DaemonFC:PAug 09 13:57
oiaohmDebian is upgrade in place with min disruption.Aug 09 14:00
schestowitzWindows Live Events dies next year, Calendar named successor 09 14:00
DaemonFC 09 14:01
DaemonFCit removes the branding and you see if you can spot the differenceAug 09 14:01
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[popey] DBAN still chugging away, got to 11.13% but now telling me 7 hours to go. DBAN from the Microsoft school of estimating runtimes? :)Aug 09 14:02
schestowitz What's The Google Brand Worth These Days? $100 Billion.Aug 09 14:03
oiaohmpopey: What mode dban.Aug 09 14:03
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] Google Brand Worth $100B; Microsoft Brand No. 2 at $76B 09 14:03
oiaohmPlease don't be max popey.  Single blank pass its dead on.Aug 09 14:03
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[davidgerard] @schestowitz those lists are complete fantasy space-filler. worse than "rich lists" and best not wasting thought on.Aug 09 14:08
*DaemonFC wonders why the FreeDB is such crapAug 09 14:08
DaemonFCif you can't be bothered to tag your music correctly, please don't upload those tags to FreeDB :PAug 09 14:09
oiaohm   << arm wave on way to USA.Aug 09 14:12
DaemonFCit's gonan flopAug 09 14:12
Ngwhy?Aug 09 14:13
DaemonFCguarantee it's going to be a disaster for anyone that tries to sell themAug 09 14:13
oiaohmSame was said about eee pc.Aug 09 14:13
DaemonFCthe eee is PC-compatibleAug 09 14:13
oiaohmWhen they were running Linux only.Aug 09 14:13
DaemonFCand they had the return ratesAug 09 14:13
DaemonFCand they had peopel formatting over them with WindowsAug 09 14:13
DaemonFCand they had people buying them as toysAug 09 14:14
oiaohmBuying them as toys is good.Aug 09 14:14
DaemonFCARM is going to flop simply because it's not PC compatibleAug 09 14:14
DaemonFCx86 is really the only architecture of any significanceAug 09 14:15
DaemonFCif you support one arch, it'll be x86Aug 09 14:15
DaemonFCif you support two, you'll also have a PowerPC versionAug 09 14:15
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DaemonFCbut even PowerPC is the beginning of the also-ransAug 09 14:16
oiaohmYou are so sure arm does not stand a chance.Aug 09 14:16
DaemonFCalmost nobody uses it besides on serversAug 09 14:16
Ngthere are tens of millions of PowerPC devices in peoples' homesAug 09 14:16
DaemonFCARM is dead and doesn't even realize itAug 09 14:16
oiaohmPrice..Aug 09 14:16
Ngactually probably hundreds of millionsAug 09 14:16
DaemonFCARM is dead before it even startsAug 09 14:17
oiaohmArm are aiming at the 150 USD market.Aug 09 14:17
DaemonFCas a PC replacement, it's not going to happenAug 09 14:17
DaemonFCas an embedded CPU, yeah, it's a good chipAug 09 14:17
Ngas a PC replacement, yesAug 09 14:17
DaemonFCit's not going to be an x86 killer, everAug 09 14:17
Ngbut selling netbooks as PC replacements is a recipe for unhappy customresAug 09 14:17
Ngthey make awful PCsAug 09 14:17
Ngthey make great mobile web terminalsAug 09 14:17
Diablo-D3oiaohm: fuck dudeAug 09 14:17
Diablo-D3I can get "fully featured" arm "pcs" for $99 or lessAug 09 14:17
schestowitzDiablo-D3: language warningAug 09 14:18
schestowitzNg: true, many people use the PCs differentlyAug 09 14:18
DaemonFCnobody is so frapping cheap that they're going to endure ARM to save $50Aug 09 14:18
oiaohmI was meaning under the 150 USD market.Aug 09 14:18
DaemonFCor 5 minutes of batteryAug 09 14:18
Diablo-D3Ng: wellAug 09 14:18
schestowitzFor those who only ever use it for E-mail (some generations and niches) will be fine with theseAug 09 14:18
Diablo-D3it depends how you define a PCAug 09 14:18
Diablo-D3for like half the marketAug 09 14:18
oiaohmYou are talking 24 hours of battery DaemonFC in a lot of the arms.Aug 09 14:18
schestowitzIt's hard for techies to think of people to whom PCs are very marginal in lifeAug 09 14:19
oiaohmor longer.Aug 09 14:19
DaemonFCthe Atom only uses like 2 wattsAug 09 14:19
Diablo-D3a PC means "it runs that new fangled internet exploder stuff my grandson is always hating"Aug 09 14:19
DaemonFCARM uses 1.5 wattsAug 09 14:19
DaemonFCyeehaw?Aug 09 14:19
Diablo-D3so yeahAug 09 14:19
Diablo-D3a webtop would work for a lot of peopleAug 09 14:19
oiaohmThere is a major difference in the instruction sets.Aug 09 14:19
Diablo-D3oiaohm: MY GOD MANAug 09 14:19
Diablo-D3stop talking to DaemonFCAug 09 14:20
DaemonFCpower efficiency of ARM has been overratedAug 09 14:20
Diablo-D3hes a lost causeAug 09 14:20
schestowitzHE's a trollAug 09 14:20
schestowitzHe was banned some months agoAug 09 14:20
oiaohmDaemonFC: what price range is atoms targeted .Aug 09 14:20
DaemonFCin the overall scheme of battery sucking components, the difference between ARM and Atom will save you like 1% of your battery lifeAug 09 14:20
Diablo-D3schestowitz: calling him a troll is an insult to trolls everywhereAug 09 14:20
DaemonFCif thatAug 09 14:20
Diablo-D3schestowitz: also, ban him againAug 09 14:20
oiaohm+ 200 USD mark DaemonFCAug 09 14:20
schestowitzNot yet. He might get his thing togetherAug 09 14:21
DaemonFCanyone stupid enough to buy into the ARM bs will send them right backAug 09 14:21
DaemonFCbluntlyAug 09 14:21
Diablo-D3schestowitz: oiaohm has been trying to cluebat him for the past 4 hoursAug 09 14:21
Diablo-D3schestowitz: I gave up on the first oneAug 09 14:21
DaemonFCI don't think they know what they're even getting themselves intoAug 09 14:21
Diablo-D3if the facts cant change him, hes terminally braindeadAug 09 14:21
Diablo-D3pull the plug alreadyAug 09 14:21
DaemonFCI'd almost rather light the $200 on fire than put up with thatAug 09 14:21
oiaohmNote arms are 1.5 full chipset DaemonFCAug 09 14:22
oiaohmatoms are 2 w cpu only.Aug 09 14:22
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DaemonFCARM, to me, would be amusing out of sheer curiousity for all of 5 minutesAug 09 14:22
DaemonFCI'd poke and prod and then get bored and it would collect dustAug 09 14:22
oiaohmBasically add a 0Aug 09 14:22
Diablo-D3an atom 230 + ion is about 25 wattsAug 09 14:22
oiaohmFor the rest of the chip set DaemonFCAug 09 14:22
Diablo-D3atom 230 + 945 is about 35 wattsAug 09 14:22
Diablo-D3330 is about another 5 wattsAug 09 14:23
oiaohmWay more than arm chips no way they can compete on battery DaemonFCAug 09 14:23
DaemonFCI don't care if it takes no power to run, if it's incompatible with everythingAug 09 14:23
oiaohmAtoms basically don't stand a chance gainst them unless quickly intel can get out a new chipset.Aug 09 14:23
twitterThis is because we see the future -> schestowitz: It's hard for techies to think of people to whom PCs are very marginal in lifeAug 09 14:23
oiaohmIn power usage.Aug 09 14:23
Diablo-D3there are >1ghz dual core arm11/a8/a9 + gpu solutions that use less than 10 watts totalAug 09 14:23
Diablo-D3and get more done by wattAug 09 14:23
Diablo-D3like 3x moreAug 09 14:24
twitterand we know that computers are in everything nowAug 09 14:24
NgI'm not sure I buy the 25W atom figure, my laptop uses half thatAug 09 14:24
DaemonFCOK, so why doesn't Windows go that way and jsut use a backwards compatibility systemAug 09 14:24
Ngand it's not an Atom, it's a Core2DuoAug 09 14:24
DaemonFCor why didn't the Mac for that matter?Aug 09 14:24
oiaohmDaemonFC: arms are not incompadible with everything.Aug 09 14:24
DaemonFCthey went through the pain of transitioning to x86Aug 09 14:24
DaemonFCwhy not ARM?Aug 09 14:24
oiaohmCheep netbooks/smartbooks have there place.Aug 09 14:25
NgDaemonFC: Apple are making loads of money from ARMAug 09 14:25
NgDaemonFC: the iphone/itouch are more profitable than the Macs atmAug 09 14:25
Diablo-D3Ng: 945 is a very horrible northbridgeAug 09 14:25
DaemonFCIf Apple had any confidence in ARM, they would be using that in desktop MacsAug 09 14:25
oiaohmIe if someone losses a 150 dollar machine compared to a 300 dollar one what is simpler cheeper to replace.Aug 09 14:25
schestowitztwitter: not in production indutryAug 09 14:25
NgDiablo-D3: ah right, mine is G45 and my previous one with similar power profile was 965Aug 09 14:25
twitter?Aug 09 14:25
oiaohmApple would have to redo a lot of code to change to arm fully DaemonFCAug 09 14:25
schestowitzRobotics are another matter altogetherAug 09 14:25
Diablo-D3Ng: ions use less and have a gpu thats a magnitude or nine more powerfulAug 09 14:26
twitterproduction of what?Aug 09 14:26
oiaohmYou don't change chip sets quicky.Aug 09 14:26
DaemonFCmy point is that if x86 is such a dead end and sucks so bad, why did Apple transition to it when there are "so many bettter" designs out there?Aug 09 14:26
Diablo-D3and atom isnt even that power efficientAug 09 14:26
Diablo-D3its actually rather crappyAug 09 14:26
oiaohmBecause of cost for apple to do it DaemonFCAug 09 14:26
oiaohmNothing more.Aug 09 14:26
Diablo-D3I can build desktop AMD boards that clock in the sameAug 09 14:26
oiaohmLinux does not have that transfer cost problem.Aug 09 14:26
DaemonFCI'm sure they could have just as easily ported everything to ARMAug 09 14:26
NgDaemonFC: nobody is saying x86 is dead dudeAug 09 14:26
Diablo-D3Ng: hold upAug 09 14:27
Diablo-D3I'd like to say x86 is dyingAug 09 14:27
DaemonFCthey did it mainly because most Mac users are in the closet Windows users as wellAug 09 14:27
oiaohmDaemonFC:  low level hardware interface stuff.Aug 09 14:27
Diablo-D3someone should state thatAug 09 14:27
NgDiablo-D3: what's your evidence?Aug 09 14:27
DaemonFCand it's nice to have both on the same machine vs. having to have a PC tooAug 09 14:27
oiaohmYou don't understand the ammount of work done to Linux to support arm soc chips DaemonFCAug 09 14:27
twitterwork is not what people care about most.  communications, entertainment and home life are dominated by computers.  for most people these computers are non free and inflexible.Aug 09 14:27
oiaohmWithout Linux opensource model it would be down right toxic to most companies.Aug 09 14:28
DaemonFCwell, blame that on the inconsistency of open source communication softwareAug 09 14:28
DaemonFCand the lack of broad appealAug 09 14:28
oiaohmeach arm soc design is basically unique.Aug 09 14:28
DaemonFCthat's a different monster thoughAug 09 14:28
oiaohmSo a level 10 mungrel for someone like apple.Aug 09 14:28
DaemonFCEkiga works on Windows and Mac too, why is Skype the only thing anyone uses?Aug 09 14:29
Diablo-D3Ng: years of wishful thinking.Aug 09 14:29
twitterI moved most of my TV watching to my PC, for example, but most new TVs are computers.  "analog converter boxes" are computers, so even people who have analog TVs get it though a non free computer.Aug 09 14:29
DaemonFCJabber runs on every platform, why is the world still using Windows Live and yahoo?Aug 09 14:29
NgDiablo-D3: hehAug 09 14:29
oiaohmInstalled by default on a lot of machines DaemonFCAug 09 14:29
twitterPhones are computers.Aug 09 14:29
oiaohmSo created market share DaemonFCAug 09 14:29
DaemonFCit doesn't matter how novel a thing is if you're in the corner playing with yourself and can't interact with the rest of the worldAug 09 14:30
DaemonFCand that's where Ekiga isAug 09 14:30
twitteriPhone shows where that can go, but this was demonstrated long ago with Handspring, and free software PDAs.Aug 09 14:30
oiaohmPeople use gtalk you like to forget that DaemonFCAug 09 14:30
oiaohmthat is also jabber.Aug 09 14:30
DaemonFCI have yet to see any of my contacts on GTalkAug 09 14:30
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oiaohmSo that is you.Aug 09 14:31
oiaohmMost of my contacts are in Gtalk.Aug 09 14:31
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DaemonFCIt goes like this "Hey, why don't you get Gtalk?" Them: "What does it do that Windows Live can't?"Aug 09 14:31
DaemonFC"Well, it's cross platform"Aug 09 14:31
Diablo-D3jabber is really usefulAug 09 14:31
DaemonFCthem: "What does that mean? I don't care about that"Aug 09 14:31
twitterall your contact with the outside world, asides from work and walking down the street, comes through a computer of some sort.Aug 09 14:31
Diablo-D3the greatest part is cross-network communicationAug 09 14:31
Diablo-D3different jabber servers can talk to each otherAug 09 14:32
oiaohmThere are even jabber gateways to other protocals.Aug 09 14:32
twittereven books and newspapers are composed on computers, but paper is dying out.Aug 09 14:32
Diablo-D3foss at workAug 09 14:32
DaemonFCopen source messengers and VOIP really have no users and can't interact with software people are using very wellAug 09 14:32
DaemonFCso the cycle kind of feeds itselfAug 09 14:33
oiaohmCycle is feed many ways.Aug 09 14:33
oiaohmUsers start using what is default installed on there machines.Aug 09 14:33
oiaohmAnd stay with it.Aug 09 14:33
oiaohmBecome very hard to change off it so locking other users to those applications.Aug 09 14:33
DaemonFCif they did support netowrk interoperability then users may trickle onto Ekiga and eventually the other network would wither and dieAug 09 14:33
oiaohmNice bit of loop in.Aug 09 14:33
DaemonFCinstead, you have a bunch of religious people demanding that everyone quit cold turkeyAug 09 14:33
oiaohmDo companies like dell install Ekiga?Aug 09 14:34
oiaohmAnswer no.Aug 09 14:34
DaemonFCand use their stuffAug 09 14:34
Diablo-D3yesAug 09 14:34
Diablo-D3they actually doAug 09 14:34
Diablo-D3they're selling ubuntu by default on some machines nowAug 09 14:34
oiaohmI have never seen a dell machine with EkigaAug 09 14:34
oiaohmOk other than Ubuntu machines.Aug 09 14:34
Diablo-D3:D :DAug 09 14:34
oiaohmEven Ubuntu machines they will default install skype for kick backs.Aug 09 14:34
DaemonFCEkiga, Pidgin, Kopete, the whole bunch of them, can't see the forest for the treesAug 09 14:34
Diablo-D3well if they can get skype working in linux, sureAug 09 14:35
Diablo-D3its such a horrid posAug 09 14:35
oiaohmBasically there is a vendor locking loop.Aug 09 14:35
DaemonFCand so nobody takes them seriously unless they can live with every modern feature removed and unsupportedAug 09 14:35
Diablo-D3and I'd reinstall ubuntu on those machines anyhowAug 09 14:35
Diablo-D3too much of a stability hazardAug 09 14:35
oiaohmIf arm takes off it provides another enterence point in market.Aug 09 14:35
Diablo-D3arm already did take off imoAug 09 14:36
Diablo-D3its hard to find products that arent armAug 09 14:36
oiaohmNot everyone is after netbooks to use on internet.Aug 09 14:36
DaemonFCSkype does all kinds of horrible things on LinuxAug 09 14:36
Diablo-D3thats not what I meantAug 09 14:36
DaemonFCit's not a well behaved application because there is no well defined standard for how to do anythingAug 09 14:36
oiaohmThe funny part is most netbook owners I know never have connected them to the internet.Aug 09 14:36
Diablo-D3look at all the GBAs and DSes sold over the yearsAug 09 14:36
DaemonFCone distro uses Pulseaudio, the other doesn'tAug 09 14:37
Diablo-D3or all the seagate and hitachi hard drives (they both use ARM for the microcontroller)Aug 09 14:37
DaemonFCone uses KDE, the other uses GNOMEAug 09 14:37
Diablo-D3microwaves, TVs, other "smart" devicesAug 09 14:37
Diablo-D3carsAug 09 14:37
DaemonFCthey all set every component up differently, in numerous versionsAug 09 14:37
oiaohmMost use netbooks are notepads.Aug 09 14:37
DaemonFCand so who do you even support?Aug 09 14:37
oiaohmsmall item to jot down notes.Aug 09 14:37
Diablo-D3I bet the monitor infront of me has an ARM in itAug 09 14:37
oiaohmYou can type faster on a netbook keyboard than a phone.Aug 09 14:37
DaemonFCIf you target Ubuntu you might break Fedora, if you target Fedora, you might break 10 othersAug 09 14:37
oiaohmAnd its smaller.Aug 09 14:37
Diablo-D3they sell WRT-style routers with ARMsAug 09 14:37
Diablo-D3the ones that dont have ARMs have MIPS in themAug 09 14:38
Diablo-D3MIPS is everywhere tooAug 09 14:38
Diablo-D3in fact, x86 might as well be deadAug 09 14:38
DaemonFCso I can kind of forgive Skype for not working well on linux because there are no standards to develop programs for LinuxAug 09 14:38
oiaohmThis is the problem DaemonFC you really don't under stand what the netbook market users want.Aug 09 14:38
DaemonFCand that needs to changeAug 09 14:38
Diablo-D3theres more arm than x86 and more mips than x86 out in the world and sold per yearAug 09 14:38
DaemonFCthey need to freeze and guarantee APIs, but that will never happenAug 09 14:38
oiaohmLarge percentage are not after them for the reason most think.Aug 09 14:38
oiaohmThere are standards to develop for Linux.Aug 09 14:39
oiaohmJust audio is a level 10 headache.Aug 09 14:39
DaemonFCevery distribution duplicates so much effort that the process is insanely redundant and you just end up with yet another incompatible distro that looks and acts like the othersAug 09 14:39
oiaohmLets start off with some basics here.Aug 09 14:39
DaemonFCeven Mark Shuttleworth admitted as much when he asked other distros to syncronize some key packages with UbuntuAug 09 14:39
DaemonFCand that never went anywhereAug 09 14:40
oiaohmYou can swap Linux kernel between distributions and everything basically works.Aug 09 14:40
oiaohmEven that they are built by different parties.Aug 09 14:40
oiaohmBecause they are all to standard.Aug 09 14:40
DaemonFCevery attempt to standardize or unify Linux, or at least the core functionality has always floppedAug 09 14:40
oiaohmYou can built gtk and qt applications quite well.Aug 09 14:40
oiaohmThat is incorrect DaemonFCAug 09 14:40
DaemonFCbecause it turns into a political bickering nightmare and everyone gives up and goes homeAug 09 14:40
oiaohmThe items that are standardised are fine.Aug 09 14:41
oiaohmItems like audio that are not and still disputed are hell.Aug 09 14:41
DaemonFCDebian refuses to support RPM, Ubuntu doesn't want to go with QT, Fedora can't compile package X a certain way because it would piss off Red hat customersAug 09 14:41
oiaohmEverything was alsmost sorted on audio then pulseaudio turned up and flared the war up again.Aug 09 14:41
DaemonFCand it implodesAug 09 14:41
oiaohmWrong DaemonFCAug 09 14:41
oiaohmDebain supports RPM these days.Aug 09 14:42
DaemonFConly enough to kind of fake complianceAug 09 14:42
oiaohmWrong.Aug 09 14:42
oiaohmOnly as much as is required by standard.Aug 09 14:42
DaemonFCtheir RPM support is minimal and backwardsAug 09 14:42
DaemonFCthen the standard is badAug 09 14:42
oiaohmIf you are building your applications to standard its not a problem.Aug 09 14:42
oiaohmNow if you are not then you have head aches.Aug 09 14:43
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oiaohmThe standard are good.  People complain about things not covered.Aug 09 14:43
oiaohmIf you step out of standards and get hurt its your fault.Aug 09 14:43
schestowitzThe Housewives of Goldman Sachs < >Aug 09 14:43
DaemonFCI've arm wrestled I don't know how many bugs in distributions that aren't there in any other distribution, kernel bugs that nobody has had any interest in fixing, you name itAug 09 14:43
schestowitzThe comment's funnyAug 09 14:43
DaemonFCconsistent is the most important thing Linux could ever decide to beAug 09 14:44
DaemonFCbecause otherwise your users give up and go back to proprietary software, because it is consistent by nature, if not always working wellAug 09 14:44
oiaohmDid you hear what I said that you can basically replace the kernel in any distribution with anothers without break system.Aug 09 14:45
DaemonFCyeah, that's not the only point of failureAug 09 14:45
oiaohmThe issues you are talking about can be dealth with simply.Aug 09 14:45
DaemonFCany distribution with any quirk in most any package is a problem waiting to happenAug 09 14:45
oiaohmYou are aware that lsb binaries have there own dynamic linker.Aug 09 14:46
DaemonFCand the bitch of it is that it's usually by designAug 09 14:46
oiaohmThat allows those programs to use there own versions of .so files.Aug 09 14:46
oiaohmSo basically don't have to depend on much from system.Aug 09 14:46
DaemonFCyeah, which is a bad compromise giving a nod to the fact that the distro mess will never be sorted outAug 09 14:47
oiaohmIe you have the option of disreguarding everything the distribution providesAug 09 14:47
DaemonFCwhich again, is a bad compromiseAug 09 14:47
oiaohmor shiping parts to problem distributions from the distribution you tested on.Aug 09 14:47
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] Welcome to the 'Free' market: Apple and Google kept (unwritten) no poaching pact < >Aug 09 14:47
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] Bailout has conflict of interests all over it: "Paulson’s Calls to Goldman Tested Ethics " < >Aug 09 14:47
DaemonFCthat's an even worse compromise than Windows Side By Side dllsAug 09 14:47
oiaohmEven sneeker having them auto download.Aug 09 14:47
DaemonFCbecause there's only so many versions of a dllAug 09 14:47
oiaohmSo it works.Aug 09 14:47
DaemonFCeverybody in the world can make their own version of any shared objectAug 09 14:47
oiaohmYep.Aug 09 14:48
oiaohmExactly.Aug 09 14:48
oiaohmMore that do it bigger mess we make the more distributions will have to wake up.Aug 09 14:48
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oiaohmThere is nothing stoping you shipping cross distributions binaries other than maybe X11 and pulseaudioAug 09 14:49
DaemonFC`damn itAug 09 14:49
DaemonFC`hold the thoughtAug 09 14:49
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DaemonFC`I'm going to shoot that routerAug 09 14:50
oiaohmWith DRI2 and KMS X11 is no longer a issue because then you can ship your own X11 server.Aug 09 14:50
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oiaohmBasically soon enough applications builds will be able to break free of distributions.Aug 09 14:50
oiaohmSo forcing distributions to table or have mess.Aug 09 14:50
DaemonFCI don't like the idea of infinite shared object mutationsAug 09 14:51
DaemonFCbecause then EVERYBODY uses their own jsut because you can't trust the distroAug 09 14:51
oiaohmCan you name any other way of forcing distrobution to table.Aug 09 14:51
DaemonFCdictatorAug 09 14:51
DaemonFCmilitary coupAug 09 14:51
DaemonFC:DAug 09 14:51
DaemonFCWindowsAug 09 14:52
oiaohmNot options.Aug 09 14:52
oiaohmOnly other way is wait for last distribution standing.Aug 09 14:52
oiaohmWindows is not enough of a montivator for them.Aug 09 14:52
DaemonFCthe only way you're ever going to be able to trust a set of distros to do right thing......Aug 09 14:52
DaemonFClock them in a room and tell them they can come out when they reach a compromise?Aug 09 14:53
DaemonFC:DAug 09 14:53
oiaohmIs not be dependant on them.Aug 09 14:53
oiaohmDistributions are not that important really.Aug 09 14:53
oiaohmKDE with the upcoming transferable plasma widgets is starting down the correct path.Aug 09 14:53
oiaohmHave the windows managers take over.Aug 09 14:54
DaemonFCI still like my idea betterAug 09 14:54
DaemonFClock them all in a room and don't let them out til they have something that worksAug 09 14:54
oiaohmAll ready tried locking them in a room it don't work.Aug 09 14:54
oiaohmBecause new ones keep on forming out side the room.Aug 09 14:54
DaemonFCget a bigger roomAug 09 14:54
DaemonFC:DAug 09 14:54
oiaohmYou need to alter the building blocks they are building from.Aug 09 14:55
oiaohmLike the windows managers.Aug 09 14:55
oiaohmSo they cannot get away.Aug 09 14:55
DaemonFChave them all draw strawsAug 09 14:55
DaemonFCand make sure that GNOME and XFCE draw the short onesAug 09 14:55
DaemonFC:PAug 09 14:55
oiaohmThe battle to standardise is being won.Aug 09 14:55
oiaohmUsage of dbus is increasing.Aug 09 14:55
oiaohmThat is standardising lots of things.Aug 09 14:56
oiaohmIn a distributionbution netural way.Aug 09 14:56
DaemonFCre they finally getting tired of spinning their wheels and hurting each other far more than Microsoft?Aug 09 14:56
DaemonFCyayAug 09 14:56
oiaohmThere will be a pushing into using dbus to control the package management system.Aug 09 14:56
oiaohmNotice were the merge presure is comeing form.Aug 09 14:56
oiaohmIe WM'sAug 09 14:57
oiaohmBasically ignore distributions focus on getting the wm merged and the distributions will merge.Aug 09 14:57
DaemonFCDirectX, maybe not the best, but consistent, Directshow, maybe not the best, but there's only one framework...Aug 09 14:57
oiaohmsame is true with X11 stacks.Aug 09 14:58
DaemonFCExplorer, maybe not the most intuitive, but there is only one desktop environmentAug 09 14:58
DaemonFCyou know about what to do to make a program work on WindowsAug 09 14:58
oiaohmMost of that is coming to Linux slowly.Aug 09 14:58
DaemonFCthe only thing you really need to do is follow supported APIs provided by Microsoft, and it worksAug 09 14:58
DaemonFCshow me where you only have to compile it once and it runs on every Linux and interacts with the facilities properlyAug 09 14:59
oiaohmDepends what facilities you are interfacing with.Aug 09 14:59
DaemonFCit's a one party system (Windows) or a bumbling bureacracy (open source)Aug 09 15:00
Diablo-D3this is comicalAug 09 15:00
DaemonFCit's just not going to end well for users either wayAug 09 15:00
Diablo-D3all I see is oiaohm talking for hoursAug 09 15:00
Diablo-D3to himselfAug 09 15:00
oiaohmIf you are interface with items standardies.Aug 09 15:00
oiaohmLike in 12 months you will be able to use dbus to place system tray icons no problems.Aug 09 15:00
DaemonFCLinux has a tendency to go about 100 different ways of solving every problemAug 09 15:01
Diablo-D3oiaohm: x11 is sorta dying out dudeAug 09 15:01
oiaohmSince that part will be finaly standardised.Aug 09 15:01
DaemonFCrather than give you one version of something that just works, most of the timeAug 09 15:01
oiaohmThat is what is happening DaemonFCAug 09 15:01
oiaohmThere were 4 different system tray implementations.Aug 09 15:01
oiaohmThey will all be gone replaced with 1.Aug 09 15:01
DaemonFCthat's what an OS needs to be a successAug 09 15:01
DaemonFCit doesn't have to perform well, or be glitch-free, or even cheapAug 09 15:02
oiaohmThere will be 1 interface with package management.Aug 09 15:02
DaemonFCit jsut has to workAug 09 15:02
oiaohmThat is also on way.Aug 09 15:02
twitterDeamonFC makes himself difficult to ignore.Aug 09 15:02
oiaohmNo matter the distribution package format under it DaemonFCAug 09 15:02
DaemonFCmy favorite particular plumbing issue it soundAug 09 15:02
oiaohmBasically the merge is happening DaemonFC.Aug 09 15:03
DaemonFC'always has been, and even OSS to ALSA is not as painful as PulseaudioAug 09 15:03
oiaohmgnome and kde are both syncing on gstreamer backends.Aug 09 15:03
DaemonFCLinux is the only POSIX system that uses ALSAAug 09 15:03
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[davidgerard] Workaround: alt-F2 for xterm, restarted clutter by running netbook-launcher in xterm, re-enable in prefs! #ubuntu #netbookAug 09 15:03
DaemonFCevery other POSIX system uses OSSAug 09 15:03
DaemonFCOSS4 is under a free software licenseAug 09 15:03
DaemonFCthey should use itAug 09 15:03
oiaohmSo removing oss pulseaudo and alsa from problem of application development.Aug 09 15:03
oiaohmand containing those low level interface problems to gstreamer.Aug 09 15:04
oiaohmSo by by problem.Aug 09 15:04
DaemonFCyes, jsut pick SOMETHINGAug 09 15:04
DaemonFCI don't even care whatAug 09 15:04
DaemonFC:PAug 09 15:04
oiaohmgstreamerAug 09 15:04
oiaohmis basically picked by most usage.Aug 09 15:04
twitterHouswives of Goldman Sachs ->  This series of crap is nothing more than the worst of America and it is what is being broadcast around the world.  Is that really the image you want others to see you asAug 09 15:04
DaemonFCideally I think you would have gstreamer on top of OSS 4Aug 09 15:04
twitterI have missed out on most of this "reality TV" thing.Aug 09 15:05
DaemonFCand if I'm not too horribly mistaken, OSS 4 provides integrated mixing controls that work better than Pulseaudio ALSA Cordon Blue :PAug 09 15:05
oiaohmgstreamer allows you not to care if its OSS alsa jack pulse or what ever some other mad bugger dreams up.Aug 09 15:05
oiaohmAlso gstreamer is platform netural.Aug 09 15:05
oiaohmIt works perfectly on windows and mac as well.Aug 09 15:05
DaemonFCyes, I've seen gstreamer on top of OSS 4 on BSDAug 09 15:05
DaemonFCand it works beautifullyAug 09 15:05
oiaohmsee no audio problem.Aug 09 15:05
twitterI joined that generation that's driving advertisers insane by ignoring TV and most big publications.Aug 09 15:06
oiaohmJust we have too many mad buggers wanting to use raw interfaces.Aug 09 15:06
oiaohmAnd having hellAug 09 15:06
DaemonFCtwitter: advertising has never made anyone do anythingAug 09 15:06
DaemonFCit jsut makes you more prone to doing something you were inclined to anywayAug 09 15:06
twitterI wonder if more people abroad watch these twisted reality shows than people in the US.Aug 09 15:06
DaemonFCthat's the whole method of operationAug 09 15:06
oiaohmIdea that Linux is a complete mess is wrong.Aug 09 15:07
DaemonFCoh but it's not :PAug 09 15:07
oiaohmIts only a mess if you stupidly go and play in those parts.Aug 09 15:07
DaemonFClook at FreeBSD and tell me that it isn't pretty damned coherentAug 09 15:07
oiaohmIe alsa interface with defective emulation by jack and pulseaudioAug 09 15:07
oiaohmoss interface defective emulation by jack and pulseaudio again.Aug 09 15:08
oiaohmSo you are toast.Aug 09 15:08
oiaohmInteface with jack and pulseaudiot they are not always there.Aug 09 15:08
DaemonFCFreeBSD doesn't try to solve everyone's problems by creating a new interface everytime someone bitchesAug 09 15:08
oiaohmso you are toast.Aug 09 15:08
DaemonFCit usually has one, maybe two in some rare cases, way of doing thingsAug 09 15:08
oiaohmYou get to gstreamer in the audio stack then you are not toast.Aug 09 15:08
oiaohmEven on freebsd + jack you are toast.Aug 09 15:08
oiaohmusing ossAug 09 15:08
DaemonFCyou can use Pulseaudio on FreeBSD, technically, but you'd be insaneAug 09 15:09
DaemonFCI think it's already pretty damned crazy on LinuxAug 09 15:09
oiaohmReason why I said jack.Aug 09 15:09
oiaohmUsing jack is not exactly insane it just a head ache causer with predictable defects.Aug 09 15:09
DaemonFCALSA jsut needs a good mixerAug 09 15:10
DaemonFCPulseaudio is 10 times as complicated as needs beAug 09 15:10
oiaohmJack is a mixing table.Aug 09 15:10
oiaohmFor fancy audio work.Aug 09 15:10
DaemonFCand it manages to hit every ALSA bug that users would never even expose under any other conditionAug 09 15:10
oiaohmNot normal user.Aug 09 15:10
oiaohmPulseaudio it self does nto speek pure Alsa either.Aug 09 15:11
DaemonFCif I was Mark Shuttleworth, so help me I would fire everybodyAug 09 15:11
oiaohmCan you see what I am getting at the safe audio point is gstreamer.Aug 09 15:11
DaemonFCif they gave me Jaunty JackalopeAug 09 15:11
DaemonFC:PAug 09 15:11
DaemonFCor anything back to Hardy Heron for that matterAug 09 15:12
oiaohmYet items like skype insanely use direct oss or alsa.Aug 09 15:12
DaemonFCbecause not every Linux has Pusleaudio?Aug 09 15:12
DaemonFCbecause not everybody is crazy or stupid?Aug 09 15:12
oiaohmLot of wine users remove it form performace reasons.Aug 09 15:12
oiaohmYou have less than a 1 in 10 chance they will have PulseaudioAug 09 15:13
DaemonFCPulseaudio does all kinds of bad things to WineAug 09 15:13
oiaohmBut providing an application you have to code for it.Aug 09 15:13
DaemonFCDebian won't even touch PulseaudioAug 09 15:13
oiaohmPulseaudio is in there repos.Aug 09 15:13
DaemonFCneedless system complication + one more thing to crashAug 09 15:14
oiaohmNot installed by default thank good.Aug 09 15:14
DaemonFCyeah, but they don't encourage you to use itAug 09 15:14
DaemonFCor even put it in by defaultAug 09 15:14
DaemonFCand it does cause all kinds of problemsAug 09 15:14
DaemonFChmmmm, there's a severe weather alertAug 09 15:15
oiaohmstart menu and file type linking has been sorted out for ages.Aug 09 15:15
DaemonFCyayAug 09 15:15
oiaohmOn Linux no one noticed.Aug 09 15:15
DaemonFCheat advisory, 95 degree high todayAug 09 15:15
DaemonFCwoot!Aug 09 15:15
oiaohmIts been correct for 4 years now.Aug 09 15:15
oiaohmNot a single distribution has failed in that time to support it correctly.Aug 09 15:15
DaemonFCyeah, ditching a.out was the best thing Linux ever did you knowAug 09 15:15
DaemonFC:PAug 09 15:15
oiaohmBasically we are in the home path.Aug 09 15:16
oiaohmSorting out package management is one of the biggest headaches left.Aug 09 15:16
oiaohmAudio is fairly sorted.  Its just getting the final votes at standard body.Aug 09 15:16
DaemonFCswitching to ELF, that must have been around 1995Aug 09 15:16
DaemonFCanyway, it solved more dependency nightmares than anything they've done sinceAug 09 15:17
oiaohm1994Aug 09 15:17
oiaohmCloseAug 09 15:17
oiaohmThat is the other thing people forget.  There are only 2 dynamic loaders for Linux.Aug 09 15:17
DaemonFCyeah, they had Slackware Linux books that were like 1,000 pages long back thenAug 09 15:18
oiaohmStandard and LSB.Aug 09 15:18
DaemonFCand came with a pack of floppy disksAug 09 15:18
DaemonFC:DAug 09 15:18
oiaohmEven that Linux supports a unlimited numbers of loaders.Aug 09 15:18
DaemonFCthat was some sadistic next level shitAug 09 15:18
oiaohmTo be correct wine is another loader.Aug 09 15:18
oiaohmYep wine is just a standard Linux loader doing really strange things.Aug 09 15:19
oiaohmOr bsd loader...Aug 09 15:19
DaemonFCWine works better on FreeBSDAug 09 15:19
DaemonFCactuallyAug 09 15:19
oiaohmDepends what has been changed recently.Aug 09 15:19
DaemonFCdon't know if you noticedAug 09 15:19
oiaohmsometimes freebsd users are screaming there heads off.Aug 09 15:19
DaemonFCwell, the PC-BSD package can never be a bad thingAug 09 15:20
DaemonFCixsystems really did do a pretty good job with thatAug 09 15:20
oiaohmPC-BSD has a good coder/maintainer.Aug 09 15:20
oiaohmwho tests before releasing binaries.Aug 09 15:20
DaemonFCit felt pretty natural to useAug 09 15:20
DaemonFCkind of Mac/Windows likeAug 09 15:20
oiaohmAnd submits correcting patches.Aug 09 15:20
oiaohmYou have a person to thank heavyly for PC-BSD status.Aug 09 15:21
DaemonFCif you don't have an Nvidia card , then you realyl should quit wasting your time trying to make Linux workAug 09 15:21
DaemonFCand jsut go with BSDAug 09 15:21
DaemonFCthat's my feelings about the issueAug 09 15:21
oiaohmATI is getting better.Aug 09 15:22
oiaohmIntel is pure pain.Aug 09 15:22
oiaohmVIA is not too bad.Aug 09 15:22
DaemonFCyeah, I've got PC-BSD on my laptopAug 09 15:22
DaemonFCit replaced the copy of XP I hadAug 09 15:22
oiaohmMost of that break down is BSD or LinuxAug 09 15:23
DaemonFCwell, no Linux distro has ever worked right on that laptopAug 09 15:23
oiaohmSince they both basically use the same X11 stack.  With the same head aches.Aug 09 15:23
DaemonFCand the BSD people are less crotchedy about non-free blobsAug 09 15:23
DaemonFCand jsut making things workAug 09 15:23
DaemonFCthe Radeon worked immediately, my wireless worked just by feeding it the Windows driverAug 09 15:24
DaemonFCand I was in business in about 5 minutesAug 09 15:24
oiaohmYou can have the reverse as well.Aug 09 15:24
oiaohmWere a machine works in 5 mins on Linux and is a level ten mungle on the BSD's.Aug 09 15:25
DaemonFCOpenSolaris has never worked right on anything I've tried it onAug 09 15:25
DaemonFCincluding their latest releaseAug 09 15:25
oiaohmOpenSolarias sparc hardware.Aug 09 15:25
oiaohmNothing beats it.Aug 09 15:25
oiaohmRight posix OS for the right hardware.Aug 09 15:25
DaemonFCthis system is moderately Linux-friendly when you're done spending an hour beating the distribution over the headAug 09 15:25
oiaohmSolarias had a joke.Aug 09 15:26
oiaohmIt was only usable after you had installed GNU on it.Aug 09 15:26
DaemonFCI've always called is SlowlarisAug 09 15:26
DaemonFC*itAug 09 15:26
oiaohmYes a very sad but true joke.Aug 09 15:26
oiaohmIts slow to get working.Aug 09 15:27
oiaohmOnce its working its great.Aug 09 15:27
DaemonFCin my opinion, Mips is probably my favorite arch after x86Aug 09 15:27
DaemonFCif you want to talk specialty hardwareAug 09 15:27
oiaohmArm and Mips both are making attempts to get into the netbook market.Aug 09 15:27
DaemonFCI'm not entirely certain why some Linux types are going ARM over MIPSAug 09 15:28
oiaohmBoth will cause the lower end of market price to stay down.Aug 09 15:28
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oiaohmReady to go chip sets with intergrated video cards DaemonFCAug 09 15:28
oiaohmthat is the split.Aug 09 15:28
DaemonFCseems to me that if you want to argue intructions per clock cycle, MIPS will do better than ARMAug 09 15:28
oiaohmMost MIPS don't have the intergrated soc's with video cards.Aug 09 15:28
DaemonFCI've got a 300 Mhz MIPS CPUAug 09 15:28
DaemonFCand it kicks ass, honestlyAug 09 15:28
oiaohmI know.Aug 09 15:29
oiaohmI hope a few more mips makers enter the game.Aug 09 15:29
oiaohmarm vs mips vs x86 in lower market will be fun.Aug 09 15:29
twitterHmmm.   Rob Lindefjeld, secretary of the ABA’s Intellectual Property Law Section defends business method patents.  Given the name of his section, that's not too surprising.  Shame on the ABA.Aug 09 15:29
DaemonFCSGI has had some insane ideasAug 09 15:29
DaemonFCtheir worst one ever was Windows NT on x86Aug 09 15:29
DaemonFCit made them look cheap and unreliableAug 09 15:29
oiaohmchina has a insane ish idea.Aug 09 15:29
DaemonFCat the time SGI tried to transition, it was to NT 4Aug 09 15:30
oiaohma mips process with extentions to support running x86 instructions.Aug 09 15:30
DaemonFCNT 4 was very badAug 09 15:30
oiaohmSo far its not soc for netbook market.Aug 09 15:30
DaemonFCnot just as a graphics processing workstation, as _anything_Aug 09 15:30
DaemonFCthey had to have been smoking crackAug 09 15:31
DaemonFCWindows 2000 was fairly competitiveAug 09 15:31
DaemonFCbut it was sandwiched between NT 4 and XPAug 09 15:31
DaemonFCickAug 09 15:31
twitterThe M$ SEC filing about Linux being "derived from Unix" also bothered me but it's not surprising.  M$ is not so much aping SCO as SCO was a M$ sock puppet all along.Aug 09 15:32
DaemonFCthere's been a few moments of Microsoft where it looked like they were honestly trying to put out a good systemAug 09 15:32
DaemonFCthat was Windows 2000Aug 09 15:33
oiaohmtwitter: in places Linux is.Aug 09 15:33
cubezzzyeah, I guess Windows 2000 was the "best" windowsAug 09 15:33
oiaohmSome IBM code and HP code submited to Linux  twitterAug 09 15:33
twitterNow that SCO is finished, M$ has to take up their propaganda itself and put it into the mouths of other sockpuppets like Novell.Aug 09 15:33
DaemonFCtheming support without composition (XP) was a mistakeAug 09 15:33
twitterNo version of Windows was ever much good.Aug 09 15:33
oiaohmBut its a legal derived from Unix.Aug 09 15:34
DaemonFCderived from UNIX can mean anythingAug 09 15:34
DaemonFCit's not source related, it's not UNIX trademarked, but it is effectively UNIXAug 09 15:34
oiaohmThere are code links back to Unix.Aug 09 15:34
oiaohmJust small amounts.Aug 09 15:34
DaemonFCa few header files, maybeAug 09 15:35
cubezzzwasn't there a Microsoft Unix at one point? Xenix or somethingAug 09 15:35
DaemonFCso?Aug 09 15:35
twitterThe lack of freedom cripples all versions.  If W2K were free and good then variants of it would be run today.Aug 09 15:35
DaemonFCthe judge threw that out so fast it wasn't even funnyAug 09 15:35
DaemonFCand then the rest of SCO's case crumbledAug 09 15:35
oiaohmParticular when novell presented the documents that sad they sold them squat.Aug 09 15:35
twitterM$ did have Xenix, a x86 Unix licensed from ATT.  I have a book about it on my shelf, where I can read M$ people praising Unix.Aug 09 15:36
oiaohmBecause they legally could not transfer the rights to Unix.Aug 09 15:36
DaemonFCas in "Windows 2009"? I suppose that's what you could call 7/2008R2Aug 09 15:36
oiaohmIE they owned nothing.Aug 09 15:36
twitterThey killed it to promote DOS, which they call their "base of power" and other silly things in their emails.Aug 09 15:37
DaemonFCthey tricked Spyglass into licensing Mosaic for freeAug 09 15:37
oiaohmNovell set SCO up perfectly.Aug 09 15:37
DaemonFCand then rewrote Internet Explorer around itAug 09 15:37
DaemonFCyes, quite funnyAug 09 15:37
oiaohmSCO could go around collect all the money from the copy rights.Aug 09 15:37
oiaohmThen Novell could step up and one legal case take the lot.Aug 09 15:37
twitterI knew people back in the 80s that ran it and thought well of it but could not share it with me.Aug 09 15:37
oiaohmYet no one paid SCO.Aug 09 15:37
cubezzzwhat did Spyglass get? 25% of zero? :)Aug 09 15:37
oiaohmSo Novell woke up SCO was going to lose and better step up and kill  them before IBM did.Aug 09 15:38
DaemonFCMicrosoft paid them like I think it was $5,000 up frontAug 09 15:38
oiaohmAnd the complete mess of there trick came out.Aug 09 15:38
DaemonFCand a promise of a cut of the profits from the sale priceAug 09 15:38
DaemonFCthen turned around and gave out IE for freeAug 09 15:38
DaemonFC:PAug 09 15:38
oiaohmIt was a win win for Novell.Aug 09 15:38
oiaohmEither SCO would be able to extract money and they could then steal it from SCO.Aug 09 15:38
oiaohmOr SCO could not and Novell could sue then and kill them.Aug 09 15:39
DaemonFCgiving out IE for free was the last thing Spyglass could have predictedAug 09 15:39
oiaohmBoth way destorying one of there competitors.Aug 09 15:39
DaemonFCnobody gave browsers out for freeAug 09 15:39
DaemonFCNetscape was $40 sharewareAug 09 15:39
oiaohmYep MS did a good number on spyglass.Aug 09 15:39
oiaohmNo where near as good as what Novell did on SCO.Aug 09 15:39
twitterSpyglass was awarded $8 million.Aug 09 15:40
twitter-> Spyglass, which licensed its browser to Microsoft in return for a percentage of each sale; Microsoft turned the browser into Internet Explorer and bundled it with Windows, giving it away to gain market share but effectively destroying any chance of Spyglass making money from the deal they had signed with Microsoft; Spyglass sued for deception and won a $8 million settlement.Aug 09 15:40
oiaohmNovell almost came out smelling like the good guy.Aug 09 15:40
twitter 09 15:40
oiaohmSome people still believe that as so.Aug 09 15:40
DaemonFCthey did, for a very short time, have an Internet Explorer 3 boxed setAug 09 15:40
oiaohmwith Novell.Aug 09 15:40
DaemonFCit had some extra plugins and an early version of FrontpageAug 09 15:40
oiaohmNovell saved us from bad SCO.  What a joke.Aug 09 15:40
popeyoiaohm: default settings for dbanAug 09 15:40
oiaohmpopey that is a 3 pass scan with a slow random number generator painful.Aug 09 15:41
popeyahhAug 09 15:41
popeyinterestingAug 09 15:41
popeyload average is 8-10Aug 09 15:41
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popeyI'm not actually trying to blank the disk, more find out if it's brokenAug 09 15:41
*oiaohm has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer))Aug 09 15:41
DaemonFC$8 million is way more than Spyglass was worthAug 09 15:41
DaemonFCthey should have just bought the company for $1 millionAug 09 15:41
cubezzzso SpyGlass got 8 million, plus what the lawyers gotAug 09 15:42
cubezzzor minus ratherAug 09 15:42
DaemonFClawyers probably got halfAug 09 15:42
DaemonFCthat episode of South ParkAug 09 15:42
DaemonFCEverybody v. EverybodyAug 09 15:43
DaemonFCand nobody in town had any money left except for Kyle's dad, the lawyerAug 09 15:43
DaemonFC:PAug 09 15:43
DaemonFCoiaohm: Anyways....they say bad things come in threes. Windows, Mac, and Linux. Every once in a while something neat comes along and all the fanboys from those three systems kill it and pick all the features off the corpseAug 09 15:47
DaemonFC:PAug 09 15:47
DaemonFCBeOS on MIPS would quite easily be the Best Computer EverAug 09 15:48
DaemonFC:PAug 09 15:48
cubezzzAmigaDos predates LinuxAug 09 15:48
cubezzzCommodore still diedAug 09 15:48
DaemonFCThere was also Novell DOS, DR-DOS, and quite a few othersAug 09 15:49
DaemonFCNovell sued Microsoft when Windows 95 integrated MS-DOSAug 09 15:49
cubezzzdidn't DR-DOS sue Microsoft also?Aug 09 15:50
cubezzzor Digital ResearchAug 09 15:50
DaemonFCthink soAug 09 15:51
DaemonFCand Digital Research was merged into CompaqAug 09 15:52
DaemonFCwhich merged into HPAug 09 15:52
DaemonFCDR and by extension, Compaq also had their own UNIX called Tru64Aug 09 15:52
DaemonFCHP had HP-UXAug 09 15:53
DaemonFCTru64's file system is GPL'dAug 09 15:54
DaemonFCLinux really needs another file system :PAug 09 15:54
DaemonFC 09 15:54
DaemonFCit's not a bad filesystem, but I mean, damnAug 09 15:55
DaemonFC 09 15:57
DaemonFCanother dead project for sourceforgeAug 09 15:57
schestowitzcubezzz: yes, DRIAug 09 16:01
schestowitzBill Vass of Sun (still not Oracle yet he confirms) NHIN CONNECT Efforts is talking about the difference between FOSS and proprietary in which RSA was openly and rigorously examined by expertsAug 09 16:03
schestowitzOopsAug 09 16:03
schestowitz 09 16:03
schestowitz 09 16:03
schestowitzPage updated with refs just now: 09 16:06
cubezzzdid DRI got money, or what was the final conclusion?Aug 09 16:12
cubezzzgetAug 09 16:12
twitterThe trolls seem attracted to the time to get rid of Windows story. 09 16:12
twitterand comments at BN.Aug 09 16:13
twitterThe Facebook and Twitter outages due to Windows botnets is an explosive issue.Aug 09 16:13
schestowitzAhhh.. "schestowitz (843559) Prefs x  Karma: Excellent "Aug 09 16:14
schestowitz 09 16:14
schestowitzWow. Insightful commentAug 09 16:14
schestowitzMaybe they can push the attacked party into another nymAug 09 16:15
schestowitz"You're sad for giving a shit and spending all this time on researching his nicks. Who gives a shit?"Aug 09 16:16
twitterNyms proved useless against professional gaming.Aug 09 16:16
cubezzzhmmm, that Ken Brown guy was a real bastardAug 09 16:20
schestowitzlike MOGAug 09 16:24
schestowitzStpry planterAug 09 16:24
schestowitz"As our way of thanking you for your positive contributions to Slashdot, you are eligible to disable advertising. "Aug 09 16:30
Diablo-D3Ive had that for awhileAug 09 16:31
*Balrog_ ( has joined #boycottnovellAug 09 16:32
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] @davidgerard <your_ad_here> List [enter big names here]Aug 09 16:34
schestowitzIs it true that Moz just had a bad script running? 09 16:35
trmancooopsAug 09 16:35
trmancojust cleared my buffer by accident :(Aug 09 16:35
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schestowitz 09 16:37
schestowitztrmanco: happened to me yesterday (ctrl+l)Aug 09 16:38
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trmancoschestowitz, yeahAug 09 16:42
trmanco 09 16:43
trmancowowAug 09 16:43
twitterscrolling and indexing.  -> schestowitz: Why use pages at all?Aug 09 16:43
schestowitzNo reaso.Aug 09 16:46
schestowitzNo reason. Just make text entities and interlink sensibly, like Wikipedia doesAug 09 16:46
schestowitztrmanco: wonderful newsAug 09 16:47
twittertheir link system is equivalent to pagesAug 09 16:47
schestowitzMicrosoft just shrank... got some money it needed, but shrankAug 09 16:47
twitterbut not quite as good.Aug 09 16:47
twitterlinks can refer to pagesAug 09 16:48
twitterit's not a bad idea to have arbitrary breaks in long subjects for linking.Aug 09 16:48
twitterchapter and verse, if you willAug 09 16:49
cubezzzseen this one?Aug 09 16:49
cubezzz 09 16:49
twitteryesAug 09 16:50
twitterthanksAug 09 16:50
twittermodbombed, black as night.  the astroturfers know that Sunday is a high traffic day and work extra hard to control content then 09 16:59
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] Microsoft Workforce to Shrink by Another 2,000 or More 09 17:04
schestowitzAnd with that news I shall be taking a break now. Back at 7.Aug 09 17:04
DaemonFCthere's too much friendly fire for open source to take on MicrosoftAug 09 17:06
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[trmanco] Testing Posterous 09 17:06
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[trmanco] Portuguese tech reporters are that bad 09 17:21
trmanco 09 17:21
DaemonFCoh noez!!!Aug 09 17:23
DaemonFCa DDoS virus!Aug 09 17:23
DaemonFCyou win one internetAug 09 17:23
trmancololAug 09 17:24
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twitterThe Dvorak article was really piercing.,2817,2351198,00.aspAug 09 17:38
twitterToo bad he does not raise the issue of Windows third rate performance too.Aug 09 17:39
twitterHe also misses the primary reason for the registry - to keep people from sharing and force them to buy new versions of software.Aug 09 17:41
twitternon free software puts it's licensing keys in the registry.  it's defective by design.Aug 09 17:41
twitterthe upgrade problems he sees are an intended result.  They want you to buy all of your software again and again.Aug 09 17:42
twitterthe real problem he sees is that non free software does not work.Aug 09 17:43
twitter"paranoia is just another word for ignorance."  nice HST quote.Aug 09 17:47
DaemonFCtwitter won't shut up, it's a design flawAug 09 17:50
DaemonFChe could be fixed were that setting only not in the registryAug 09 17:50
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DaemonFCI don't suppose Twitter understands that the registry doesn't prevent piracyAug 09 17:57
DaemonFCyou can easily export registry keys and include the reg file with the game ripAug 09 17:57
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BalrogDaemonFC: you don't need the registry to prevent piracyAug 09 18:36
Balrogtwitter: a lot of non free software uses a .key file or something similarAug 09 18:36
DaemonFCtwitter was saying you doAug 09 18:36
DaemonFCpart of his paranoia ticAug 09 18:36
BalrogI've seen all kinds of ways to "prevent" piracyAug 09 18:37
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schestowitzbrbAug 09 19:06
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schestowitzHehe. He's doing the podcast from his Sauna on the Maemo tabletAug 09 19:24
DaemonFCI'm hoping Doom 4 doesn't have any DRM, Zenimax could very well ruin id Software if they think anyone will go for thatAug 09 19:26
DaemonFCI was reading up on what they have so far, and it sounds goodAug 09 19:27
schestowitzDoom 4? Never heard of it!Aug 09 19:34
DaemonFCit's in productionAug 09 19:35
DaemonFCupdated engine apparently, extension of the Doom 3 engineAug 09 19:35
DaemonFCthey're calling the new engine id tech 5 thoughAug 09 19:35
DaemonFC 09 19:36
DaemonFC"The demonstration with which the new game engine was shown had 20 GB of texture data (using a more advanced MegaTexture approach called Virtual Texturing,[4] using textures with up to 128000x128000 pixel resolution) and a completely dynamically changeable world. This means that developers do not have to concern themselves with memory constraints or texture limits, as the engine will stream textures into memory as needed."Aug 09 19:37
DaemonFCvery coolAug 09 19:37
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DaemonFCthe engine is targeted at OpenGL and DirectX 9Aug 09 19:38
DaemonFCJohn Carmack hasn't been a huge fan of DirectX 10 for whatever reasonAug 09 19:39
schestowitzSO Wine compatible tooAug 09 19:39
schestowitzSuperGamer comes with Doom3Aug 09 19:39
DaemonFCthough I doubt too many people will be using XP by the time it's outAug 09 19:39
schestowitzIt's a dual-layer live DVDAug 09 19:39
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[_goblin] Zenwalk 6 - Gnome: Review finally finished! #linux #zenwalkAug 09 19:39
schestowitzI'm gonna take a peek at some Linux newsAug 09 19:39
DaemonFCyeah, Doom 3 runs in Wine already, but there's no reason toAug 09 19:39
DaemonFCthere's a native Linux engine available for itAug 09 19:39
schestowitzScary gameAug 09 19:39
DaemonFCthe Wine version performs about even with the native version thoughAug 09 19:40
DaemonFCWindows version on Wine that isAug 09 19:40
DaemonFCwhich tells you how optimized Wine has gottenAug 09 19:40
DaemonFCCarmack is also real big on portabilityAug 09 19:41
DaemonFChe noted once that once he had the Doom 3 engine running on Windows, it only took about a day to port to LinuxAug 09 19:42
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schestowitzYeah, he's alrightAug 09 19:43
DaemonFCthey may or may not end up open sourcing the engine though, they have in the past but it's getting to where to make any nontrivial program, you have to license other peoples property, I'm pretty sure the parts id had the rights to will make it to open source eventuallyAug 09 19:43
schestowitz_goblin: I've just noticed that updateAug 09 19:43
_goblinwhich one? My blog or your comments section?Aug 09 19:44
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] Review of Zenwalk 6 with GNOME Desktop 09 19:44
_goblinah.....I was impressed with it.....still not as good as Wolvix....Aug 09 19:45
_goblinalthough I challenge anyone to find a nicer desktop wallpaper than the one used for that review....Aug 09 19:45
schestowitzMandriva+KDE....Aug 09 19:45
schestowitzWait till 2010.0Aug 09 19:45
DaemonFCyeah, Mandriva KDE depends heavily on components from GNOME, it does work well, but it's kind of bloatedAug 09 19:46
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] GNU/Linux Stands on the Shoulders of UNIX - Article in the Hindu 09 19:46 know my KDE feelings!Aug 09 19:46
DaemonFCwell, things are kind of moving the opposite way from what I would have guessed last yearAug 09 19:47
DaemonFCKDE is getting better and GNOME is in the pitsAug 09 19:47
_goblinWhy? Because of its migration towards Mono apps or something else?Aug 09 19:47
DaemonFCthey keep talking about this mythological "average user" like such a thing existsAug 09 19:48
DaemonFCor like by dumbing things down, it will make Grandma suddenly get real hardcore into computersAug 09 19:48
DaemonFCand you can ask Microsoft about that, that kind of thinking usually backfiresAug 09 19:48
_goblinI think it does.  To me the average user has a set list of tasks they use the computer for, they do not care how it works simply that it does.Aug 09 19:49
DaemonFCit's what led to Microsoft BobAug 09 19:49
_goblin(in relation to the average user)Aug 09 19:49
schestowitzIt's good to have many desktopsAug 09 19:49
schestowitzWatch LinusAug 09 19:49
_goblinyepAug 09 19:49
DaemonFCevery user is an individual and will use different features with different settingsAug 09 19:49
DaemonFCby removing features and settings, you alienate everyoneAug 09 19:49
_goblinits also good that Ubuntu seems to attract the Windows users...Aug 09 19:49
Balrog_boo @ intelAug 09 19:49
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Balrog_Dell has discontinued the Mini 12Aug 09 19:49
Balrog_ 09 19:50
_goblinMaybe Ubuntu in the future will be the Vista of LinuxAug 09 19:50
_goblinI noticed that Zenwalk has half the memory footprint of Ubuntu when performing exactly the same tasks.....Aug 09 19:50
_goblinand half is underestimating....Aug 09 19:51
DaemonFCI'd call Ubuntu like the mutant bastard child of XP and Vista meets the unlucky inbred cousin of MacintoshAug 09 19:51
DaemonFC:DAug 09 19:51
_goblinits not that bad....Aug 09 19:51
_goblinif you spend time ripping up Ubuntu you can get yourself a nice little distro....Aug 09 19:51
_goblinthats stable.Aug 09 19:52
DaemonFCIf I was going to design an OS, it would probably resemble Windows 2000Aug 09 19:52
DaemonFCthough there were things about it I didn't like (Mandatory IE 6 being a big one)Aug 09 19:52
DaemonFCerrr, IE 5 ratherAug 09 19:52
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DaemonFCto integrate IE is just building in more planned obsolescence because Windows 2000 users can only go as far as IE 6 SP1, whic his not particularly safe or usefulAug 09 19:53
DaemonFCbut they're stuck with itAug 09 19:53
DaemonFC*isAug 09 19:53
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] Kernel Space Gets Many X Improvements, OpenGL 3.2 Support Imminent 09 19:55
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] Free Software and Linux Quietly Enter Many Millions of Homes, via TV 09 19:59
schestowitzBalrog: Do you know why?Aug 09 19:59
schestowitz 09 20:00
schestowitz"There is collaboration, and there is collusion. According to Digitimes, Microsoft and Intel have reached an agreement that the next generation of Netbooks will not have displays larger than 10.2 inches. Vendors that insist on making minilaptops with larger LCDs will not be eligible for the lower Windows 7 volume licensing rates for these machines. "Aug 09 20:00
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[trmanco] [Phoronix] Gernlinden, Gaming, OpenCL, & OpenGL 3.2 09 20:01
DaemonFCNvidia drivers on Windows support OpenGL 3.1 right nowAug 09 20:02
DaemonFCwhat's in 3.2?Aug 09 20:02
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] List of Phones/Mobile PCs Running Linux 09 20:02
schestowitzNvidia burnsAug 09 20:02
DaemonFC,2817,2351271,00.aspAug 09 20:03
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] in FLOSS Weekly (my Favourite Show) 09 20:05
DaemonFCOpensuse 11.2 M5 is outAug 09 20:06
schestowitzA while backAug 09 20:06
DaemonFC 09 20:07
DaemonFCyesterday apparentlyAug 09 20:07
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] More Rumours About ASUS EEE Going Back to GNU/Linux on Sub-notebooks 09 20:07
schestowitzDaemonFC: it has been on my list since yesterdayAug 09 20:07
schestowitzNews is measured in hours, not days ;-)Aug 09 20:08
DaemonFCI'm not omniscientAug 09 20:08
schestowitzIf you don't break the news, you're a second fiddle on the WebAug 09 20:08
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[trmanco] 340 km/h en Ferrari F430 Scuderia Novitec Rosso ! (Option Auto) 09 20:09
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] ASUS was probably compensated by Microsoft to diss GNU/Linux. It didn't last. ASUS: "It b0rks better with Windows"Aug 09 20:11
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] British Government Misses Opportunities with Free Software 09 20:13
DaemonFCI still have yet to crashAug 09 20:14
DaemonFCthis is probably a first for meAug 09 20:14
DaemonFCgoing a week without managing to trip up a new operating systemAug 09 20:15
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DaemonFCWindows Vista fell over and died 10 minutes in the first time I booted it upAug 09 20:16
XarverxDAug 09 20:16
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schestowitzDaemonFC: it needed rest (The CPU)Aug 09 20:19
DaemonFCyeah, my old laptop had one of those "Windows Vista Ready" stickers on itAug 09 20:21
DaemonFCI didn't technically qualify for the update program, but I sent in a request nonetheless, and got a free Vista Basic for it from HPAug 09 20:22
DaemonFCthe poor thing couldn't even handle itAug 09 20:22
DaemonFCthat's now my PC-BSD systemAug 09 20:22
DaemonFCyou notice how nothing that is for sale now says "Windows 7 Ready" even though you do get a free upgrade disc?Aug 09 20:23
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] US Healthcare Gives a Place for Free Software 09 20:23
DaemonFCI think they're trying as much as possible to not imply that it will run while still having an express upgrade programAug 09 20:23
twitterI think they did the same thing with Vista last year.  The deal limited CPU, memory, hard drive size and other things too -> the next generation of Netbooks will not have displays larger than 10.2 inches. Vendors that insist on making minilaptops with larger LCDs will not be eligible for the lower Windows 7 volume licensing rates for these machines.Aug 09 20:24
schestowitzShot in footAug 09 20:25
DaemonFCthey will be eligible to put Windows Vista Home Premium on themAug 09 20:25
schestowitzLet them pull the triggerAug 09 20:25
DaemonFCbut they have to pay normal OEM priceAug 09 20:25
schestowitzARM will comeAug 09 20:25
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] Interview with Bjarne Stroustrup on C++ Programming 09 20:25
twitterLinux, yes, free software, only as in Tivo -> Free Software and Linux Quietly Enter Many Millions of Homes, via TVAug 09 20:25
DaemonFCand that's not worth getting into a spat over 2" of screen sizeAug 09 20:25
DaemonFCwhen the el-cheapo Starter edition is only costing them $3Aug 09 20:25
DaemonFCHome Premium OEM costs Dell about $50Aug 09 20:26
twitteryeah, it's called Debian.  If you are wiling to put time into it, go to the source.  -> if you spend time ripping up Ubuntu you can get yourself a nice little distro... thats stable.Aug 09 20:26
DaemonFC$47 a unit more or take the screen down 2"?Aug 09 20:26
DaemonFCobvious which one they'll chooseAug 09 20:26
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twitterYes, ARM and Crunchpads are on the way.Aug 09 20:27
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twitterDell withdrew their 12" netbook the other day.  This explains why.Aug 09 20:27
DaemonFCMicrosoft has to define what a "netbook" is or you'll have OEMs calling EVERYTHING a netbook to get cheap Windows 7 licensesAug 09 20:27
DaemonFCand stick their customers with Starter EditionAug 09 20:28
twitterThey lost my sale when they would not confirm that their $300 netbook would work with free software drivers.  I got a $140 EEE PC instead.Aug 09 20:28
DaemonFCyou'll notice that Dell is the only big name netbook OEM that actually uses as real Linux distribution (as far as that goes with Ubuntu)Aug 09 20:29
DaemonFCthe rest of them go with some distro nobody has ever heard ofAug 09 20:29
DaemonFCI really don't care as long as there *are* driversAug 09 20:30
DaemonFCthat's rare enough as-isAug 09 20:30
twitterAll they had to do was tell me it would work with a stock Debian kernel and they would have had my money.Aug 09 20:30
DaemonFCwell, the worst case would be you'd need broadcom firmwareAug 09 20:30
DaemonFCboo hooAug 09 20:30
DaemonFCas far as Debian kernels, try using a kernel version from this yearAug 09 20:32
DaemonFCnot some stale Debian kernelAug 09 20:32
twitterThe value of any computer is limited if it does not come with freedom.  My Sharp Zaurus was a wonderful PDA, but the kernel needed non free binary blobs to work parts of it.  OpenZaurus was nice but it went away too.  If I could run Debian on it, I'd be using the Zaurus today.Aug 09 20:35
twitterWithout software freedom, a computer is wasted.  It's essentially a throw away appliance that can't grow with your needs.Aug 09 20:36
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] Microsoft's CFO is Chucking the Stock 09 20:36
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] Microsoft to Pay Schools for Competition Crimes 09 20:38
twitterCFO got a better deal than Bill Gates (under $20), but he did not get rid of as many as Gates did.Aug 09 20:42
twitterha ha, they forgot the commas -> "Microsoft develops manufactures licenses"Aug 09 20:43
twitterM$ fabricates licenses alright.Aug 09 20:43
schestowitzIt prints themAug 09 20:44
twitterAh, I see even Mr. Gates had done better when dumping millions of his shares.Aug 09 20:44
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] Microsoft and Intel in Collusion Again 09 20:44
schestowitzLike EDGIAug 09 20:44
*Diablo-D3 has quit (Read error: 60 (Operation timed out))Aug 09 20:45
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] Guardian Editor on the (Likely) Imminent Death of Zune 09 20:49
DaemonFCI did find out an official reason why Winamp is not open source and why it's not on LinuxAug 09 20:52
DaemonFCapparently they did start the work of porting it about 8 years ago and gave up because it was going to take too much work to properly finish itAug 09 20:53
DaemonFCwhat they publically released plays mp3s, and that's about all it can doAug 09 20:53
DaemonFCas for open sourcing it, they said they can't because they don't own everything in it and have had to license the codecsAug 09 20:54
DaemonFCso it's heavily dependent on Windows, and they can't open source it and have anything except Vorbis and Flac support be legalAug 09 20:54
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] Microsoft Sites Vote Against Microsoft CEO 09 20:56
DaemonFCschestowitz: The smartass in me wonders how many open source communistas stuffed that ballot boxAug 09 20:58
schestowitzUnlikely in Motley FoolAug 09 20:59
schestowitzIt's a financeAug 09 20:59
schestowitzIt's a finance site, not tech siteAug 09 20:59
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DaemonFCthe problem with Microsoft, in a business sense, is not that they want to expandAug 09 21:02
DaemonFCit's that they always choose the wrong markets to expand intoAug 09 21:02
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] Vista Harmed the Hardware Industry Vista 7 More of the Same 09 21:02
DaemonFCit's like they can't even figure out what their customers wantAug 09 21:02
DaemonFCyou'd think that with all the data they gather on you, they could figure out demographics a little betterAug 09 21:03
DaemonFCI do think the ribbon UI was a good way to go for the Windows user interfaceAug 09 21:05
twittersee vista failure log for more industry rejection.  thanks for the new linksAug 09 21:05
DaemonFCit's probably the only thing they've done that's made any sense since Windows 2000Aug 09 21:05
twitterhere's a previous M$ Netbook limitation story 09 21:05
twittercaptured here 09 21:06
DaemonFCI can't imagine why anyone would be opposed to the ribbon UI in OpenOfficeAug 09 21:06
DaemonFCthey've blatently copycatted a lot of other things without anyone complainingAug 09 21:06
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] Microsoft's Misbehaviour on the Web Noted 09 21:06
DaemonFCit didn't even have its own document formats until several years agoAug 09 21:06
DaemonFCwell, it kind of did, but since nothing else even understands Star formats, I'm not counting those as great achievements, nobody was using themAug 09 21:07
MinceR 09 21:07
DaemonFCmoving away from funky binary formats is good, but replacing it with equally complicated XML derivatives kind of defeats the purposeAug 09 21:08
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] Microsoft Bong [sic] Recommends Illegal Drugs 09 21:08
DaemonFCMinceR: Is that your Hungarian Cadillac or something?Aug 09 21:09
DaemonFC:PAug 09 21:09
DaemonFCheheAug 09 21:09
MinceRnopeAug 09 21:10
DaemonFChow much business does Government Motors do over there?Aug 09 21:10
DaemonFCmost of their foreign branches are doign surprisingly worse than their domestic brandsAug 09 21:10
MinceRthey did a lot, mostly through Opel, afaictAug 09 21:10
DaemonFCI've heard of Opel, they don't sell any here thoughAug 09 21:11
MinceRdon't they sell under the Vauxhall brand there?Aug 09 21:11
DaemonFCif it's like everything else GM makes they're probably fairly temperamental and prone to rustingAug 09 21:11
DaemonFCnoAug 09 21:11
MinceR(or rather, did -- afaik they're selling off Opel now)Aug 09 21:12
MinceRwell, i never liked them muchAug 09 21:12
MinceRmostly because they're made of plainAug 09 21:12
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] Microsoft RAND Tricks Revisited 09 21:12
DaemonFCGMC, Cadillac, Chevrolet, Hummer, PontiacAug 09 21:12
schestowitzMinceR: not goodAug 09 21:12
MinceRthe few Opel designs that aren't incredibly plain are just ugly insteadAug 09 21:12
schestowitzIt's bad to put garbage next to the exhaust pipeAug 09 21:12
DaemonFC\their Hummer and Pontiac divisions are dying off sadlyAug 09 21:12
MinceRschestowitz: well, at least this way it can be useful for a short whileAug 09 21:12
DaemonFCthe Grand Prix was the only GM car I ever really likedAug 09 21:13
schestowitzMinceR: yes, I'll find an example...Aug 09 21:13
schestowitz 09 21:14
DaemonFCpeopel have no taste in vehiclesAug 09 21:14
MinceRpeople have no tasteAug 09 21:14
DaemonFCthey buy them big and ugly and gas guzzlingAug 09 21:14
DaemonFCif it's going to guzzle gas, it may as well at least look nice :DAug 09 21:14
MinceRthey buy all sorts of retarded shit just because many others did before themAug 09 21:14
DaemonFCpeople are pack animals unfortunatelyAug 09 21:15
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] Microsoft is 'Stealing' Music, Again 09 21:15
schestowitzJobs said, "the problem with MS, is that they have no taste" (IIRC)Aug 09 21:15
DaemonFCwhatever the dumbest member of society does, the rest follow that guyAug 09 21:15
schestowitzMessia!!h JobsAug 09 21:15
MinceRthankfully, some of us aren'tAug 09 21:16
schestowitzThe problem with Jobs is... is that he has no kidneysAug 09 21:16
MinceRlolAug 09 21:16
schestowitzHe bought someAug 09 21:16
schestowitzDon't worryAug 09 21:16
MinceRno, the problem with him is that without kidneys he's still aliveAug 09 21:16
schestowitzHe can't afford itAug 09 21:16
schestowitzLike Andie and the Roids... later he buys a heart of a bypassAug 09 21:16
schestowitzMinceR: he's a MessiahAug 09 21:17
schestowitzHe'd leave in spirit either wayAug 09 21:17
MinceRno, his droids believe him to be oneAug 09 21:17
DaemonFCI used to be quite the Windows fan, now I jsut kind of have itAug 09 21:17
DaemonFC:PAug 09 21:17
schestowitzSpookin' you at night & all..Aug 09 21:17
MinceRDaemonFC: you still are quite the winblows fanAug 09 21:17
schestowitzShowing off Vista 7Aug 09 21:17
schestowitzSad..Aug 09 21:18
schestowitzThere's nothing to be proud ofAug 09 21:18
DaemonFCpimpmobile!Aug 09 21:18
DaemonFC:PAug 09 21:18
schestowitzXP was released when I was a teen, ferchristsakeAug 09 21:18
DaemonFCI was 16 when the beta version of XP went outAug 09 21:18
DaemonFCI've always done the betas ever since Windows 95Aug 09 21:19
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[_goblin] "Bad Boy Ballmers 40%" - A look at some of Ballmers crackers from the past and a recent poll conducted #microsoft #windows #vista #xp #linuxAug 09 21:19
DaemonFCthe thing about Vista was that when it went out, XP had already had almost 6 years of patches behind itAug 09 21:20
twitter 09 21:20
DaemonFCso it was more or less beaten into shape alreadyAug 09 21:20
DaemonFCXP was godawful when it was RTMAug 09 21:20
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DaemonFC_nothing_ worked quite right, I mean nothingAug 09 21:21
DaemonFCXP SP3 is hardly even the same OS as XP RTMAug 09 21:21
DaemonFCpeople were cursing and spitting at it, downgrading to Windows 98 and 2000Aug 09 21:21
DaemonFCXP was "bloated" and "bug ridden" and then somehow we got a repeat of that when Vista came outAug 09 21:22
Will_DaemonFC : any real advantages to XP SP3 vs SP2?Aug 09 21:22
Will_The last XP i've used was SP2Aug 09 21:22
Will_Never upgraded it because I did all my serious work on Linux.Aug 09 21:23
DaemonFCSP3 adds a few security features, a bunch of stability hotfixes that weren't released individually, all the updates that were released since SP2Aug 09 21:23
DaemonFCit's mainly just a rollupAug 09 21:23
Will_ok, thanks.Aug 09 21:23
DaemonFCit also adds support for a new batch of serial numbers, and you can isntall it without a serial number and be in "grace period" kind of like VistaAug 09 21:23
DaemonFCit's worth havingAug 09 21:24
Will_schestowitz : I (and probably a lot of other people) called this months ago: 09 21:24
Will_schestowitz :compare that to this and connect the dotsAug 09 21:25
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[_goblin] "Bad Boy Ballmers 40%" - A look at some of Ballmers crackers from the past and a recent poll conducted #microsoftAug 09 21:25
DaemonFCoriginal plan was that SP2 was going to be a minor rollup and that "Longhorn" would be out sometime in 2004Aug 09 21:25
DaemonFCthey didn't really plan on being entrenched with XP this longAug 09 21:25
DaemonFCthey also planned to end of life XP in 2011, and that was extended to 2014Aug 09 21:26
Will_Hi, _goblin!Aug 09 21:26
_goblinhi!Aug 09 21:27
DaemonFCoriginal plan also said that IE 6 SP1 would be the last supported version on Windows XPAug 09 21:28
Will_DaemonFC : letting people get so comfortable with XP was a bad move for them (good for everyone else though).  People have been off the upgrade treadmill so long that now they have an opportunity to question whether it's worth getting back on.Aug 09 21:29
DaemonFCthey never intended to keep XP going this long, and with 8 years of fixes behind it, numbering over 4,000 individual patches, Vista was really doomed from the startAug 09 21:29
DaemonFCand now even Windows 7 may not make people as happy as XP :PAug 09 21:29
Will_I still get a chuckle out of the fact that one of Win7's most touted features is XP mode.Aug 09 21:30
DaemonFCwell, it's not so much letting users get comfortable with it as OEMsAug 09 21:30
Will_true.  But it still helps with the users.Aug 09 21:31
DaemonFCit got to the point where the OEMs had the hardware of 2007 and the OS from 2001 by the time Vista was out, and even the worst bargain basement system they could ship would handle XP jsut greatAug 09 21:31
DaemonFCand Vista not so muchAug 09 21:31
DaemonFCVista was such a delayed reaction that it hit users and OEms like a freight trainAug 09 21:32
DaemonFCif MS had shipped something in 2004 and something again in 2007 like was planned, nobody would have noticed because the hardware and OS specs would have been more in lineAug 09 21:33
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Will_oh, _goblin, happy blog birthday!Aug 09 21:34
DaemonFCWindows 7 actually does have traces of what was supposed to be WinFSAug 09 21:34
DaemonFCbut it's nowhere near what was laid outAug 09 21:34
Will_schestowitz : one more link 09 21:37
DaemonFCno matter where your pictures and music and videos are in your user folder, Windows 7 will organize them into virtual folders tooAug 09 21:38
DaemonFCso they all appear in their proper "libraries"Aug 09 21:38
DaemonFCI'm not real thrilled with that though because it tends to make two entries in the library if you're encoding new filesAug 09 21:39
DaemonFCand you have to hit F5 to refresh the layout when it's doneAug 09 21:39
DaemonFCgets annoying fast when you're batch encoding MP3s :PAug 09 21:41
DaemonFCit doesn't always do it either :PAug 09 21:41
DaemonFCminor quirk I guessAug 09 21:41
DaemonFCI was able to extend the Advanced Tag Editor to display Vorbis tags in Explorer and let you edit them from Explorer windowsAug 09 21:42
DaemonFCso that's fairly coolAug 09 21:43
_goblinwill: Thanks!  Its my sons birthday on the 12th and mine on the 14th so its a week of parties!Aug 09 21:44
DaemonFCI wonder if I could release that as LGPL on Microsoft CodeplexAug 09 21:46
twitterThanks, Will_  Roy already saw that.  See here for more. 09 21:46
DaemonFCthat would be hilariousAug 09 21:46
twitterM$ did the same thing with XP last year, dump, dump, dump.Aug 09 21:46
Xarvernice read twitterAug 09 21:50
Will_twitter : Now, for all I know, maybe the 12 inch ones aren't the hot sellers.  But that's how the OEM's will likely spin it regardless.  Only they know for sure about that.Aug 09 21:52
DaemonFCI still say they're doing this to get the $3 license vs. the $50 licenseAug 09 21:58
schestowitzWill_: thanks, I had this link from the morningAug 09 22:00
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-BNc/#boycottnovell-[_goblin] Watching: Terry & Dory Funk V Iron Sheik and Abdulla the Butcher! 1977 classic matchup!Aug 09 22:27
twitter:) thanks, XarverAug 09 22:32
Xarverno probAug 09 22:33
schestowitzWhat a great video: 09 22:33
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schestowitz*LOL* 09 22:43
schestowitzAnd another funny (WIndows): 09 22:43
schestowitzSafari does <video>??? Aug 09 22:44
schestowitz 09 22:44
schestowitzI don't think we've ever covered this: "Federal prosecutors have opened a criminal investigation related to possible insider trading in Microsoft stock by Pequot Capital Management, the hedge fund run by Arthur Samberg, the transcript of a recent court hearing shows."Aug 09 23:00
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twittereh, times of India story is M$ revisionist history.  They present clear facts, like Vista is slower than XP, as an analyst claim and ignore widespread reports of how bad the system was.Aug 09 23:36
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twitterthey also predict great things for Vista 7, ha ha.Aug 09 23:37
twitterVista failure log is updated with repeat of memory glut accusation. 09 23:38
twitterThat log just keeps on living.  I though it would be over by now.Aug 09 23:38
twitterFirst accusation of RAM ruin is here 09 23:39
twittertwo years ago.Aug 09 23:39
twitter->  We've heard conflicting estimates of how widely adopted Vista has been.  Now comes some hard data.  DRAM makers ramped up to meet the huge expected demand for more memory needed by Vista.  Except the demand hasn't materialized.  Now they're suffering.Aug 09 23:40
twitterSo, two years down the road, RAM prices are still in the gutter because Vista never took off to hog it up.Aug 09 23:40
_goblinlol....Aug 09 23:42
_goblinAndre Da Costa has put Openbytes in his links!Aug 09 23:42
_goblinon his site...Aug 09 23:42
twittermust be a fanAug 09 23:42
_goblinCould this be a new era of tollerance from MS?Aug 09 23:42
_goblinlol.Aug 09 23:42
twitterSchmoozingAug 09 23:43
twitterold school M$Aug 09 23:43
_goblinMaybe after that poll Ballmer is going to apply to Openbytes for a job.Aug 09 23:43
schestowitzTypical, _goblin Aug 09 23:43
schestowitzBe carefulAug 09 23:43
schestowitzThese people ain't your friendsAug 09 23:43
_goblin;)Aug 09 23:43
schestowitzNo more than 'cj' who used to be hereAug 09 23:43
schestowitzHe's banned nowAug 09 23:43
schestowitzFor personal abuseAug 09 23:43
schestowitz"I come in peace"Aug 09 23:43
_goblinnp its in hand.Aug 09 23:43
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twitterVista, almost three glorious years of failure.Aug 09 23:44
twitterI've been watching the Vista 7 vids on YouTube.  It's better looking than Vista, but so is a turd on the sidewalk.Aug 09 23:45
_goblinThere was another "child exploiting" Im a PC advert on TV a few minutes ago.Aug 09 23:46
twitterDid the poor child turn blue?Aug 09 23:46
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_goblinI think the child must have been some sort of whizzkid....they were operating Windows at about 4x the speed of what it normally does and everything worked....Aug 09 23:47
_goblinthats a testament to modern education I suppose.Aug 09 23:47
_goblin;)Aug 09 23:47
twitterit's all smoke and mirrors.Aug 09 23:47
_goblinoh so sceptical......"Im a PC and Im 5" convinced me!!! ;)Aug 09 23:48
twitteranother submission bites the modbomb dust 09 23:48
twitterthe trolls must be so proud of themselves, protecting M$Aug 09 23:49
twitterHere's a 13 year old girl and her mom who hated Vista 1 09 23:51
schestowitz_goblin: yes, those ads are grossAug 09 23:51
schestowitzNext time you insult Microsoft for illegal behaviour people may associate the company with 5 year old innocent kidsAug 09 23:52
schestowitzgnAug 09 23:52
_goblingnAug 09 23:57

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