IRC: #boycottnovell @ FreeNode: August 11th, 2009

-BNc/#boycottnovell-[trmanco] RT @tweetmeme YouTube Now Bigger Than MSN 11 00:00
schestowitzIs this Boston?Aug 11 00:00
DaemonFCsee, you can get results by politely getting the "go fuck yourselves" message acrossAug 11 00:00
DaemonFCwithout resorting to crude threatsAug 11 00:00
Balrog_schestowitz: PhiladelphiaAug 11 00:03
DaemonFCthere's no federal law that says they have to take the filter down, but I know that some states have themAug 11 00:03
Balrog_CIPA says they have to take the filter down if askedAug 11 00:03
Balrog_(CIPA is the law that requires filtering)Aug 11 00:03
Balrog_ 11 00:04
Balrog_"An authorized person may disable the blocking or filtering measure during any use by an adult to enable access for bona fide research or other lawful purposes."Aug 11 00:04
DaemonFCit says "may"Aug 11 00:04
DaemonFCnot "must"Aug 11 00:04
DaemonFCthat looks pretty weak to meAug 11 00:04
Balrog_hmm .. I see.Aug 11 00:05
DaemonFCI'd look for a stronger state law before citing CIPAAug 11 00:05
DaemonFCif it comes down to it, cite it, they may just gloss over it and figure they have to take it down ;)Aug 11 00:06
DaemonFCnot everyone pays attention to details like the word "may" instead of "must"Aug 11 00:06
DaemonFCdon't say CIPA requires them to take it downAug 11 00:07
Balrog_There's also an FCC Order related to this ... 11 00:07
Balrog_OKAug 11 00:07
DaemonFCsay I request that you take it down in a manner compliant with the Children's Internet Protection Act"Aug 11 00:07
DaemonFC:)Aug 11 00:07
DaemonFChow you say something is much more important than what you are sayingAug 11 00:08
Balrog_true...Aug 11 00:08
DaemonFCif you become overtly confrontational and authoritative, they'll look more closely at what they are actually required to do in response to your letterAug 11 00:09
schestowitzMaybe they get IE kickbacks /j/kAug 11 00:09
DaemonFCyou don't want thatAug 11 00:09
schestowitzGates and Melinda French give 'donations' to library, then.... /sarcasmAug 11 00:09
Balrog_schestowitz: they "rent" computers for 3 years (IIRC) from hpAug 11 00:09
_Hicham_ 11 00:10
DaemonFCyou want them to get the impression that the law may be on your side even though it's probably on theirsAug 11 00:10
Balrog_and the IT department is not very skilled, imhoAug 11 00:10
DaemonFCMicrosoft donated the computers at our libraryAug 11 00:10
schestowitzHP is very close to Microsoft, more so then DelAug 11 00:10
_Hicham_Really, the graphics experience is now better on Linux than on WindowsAug 11 00:10
DaemonFCon the condition that only Microsoft programs and file formats be supportedAug 11 00:10
DaemonFCso you have to use OOXML and e-books are DRM'd WMAAug 11 00:10
schestowitzDaemonFC: what are the strings?Aug 11 00:10
schestowitzYuckAug 11 00:11
DaemonFCstrings for what?Aug 11 00:11
schestowitzOf course.Aug 11 00:11
schestowitzNo, you bear me to itAug 11 00:11
_Hicham_If you are lucky to have KMS enabled, you won't think about Windows, like DaemonFCAug 11 00:11
schestowitzThey always ask for 'good faith' when they 'give' some 'gifting'Aug 11 00:11
schestowitzYou just need to dig a little and find outAug 11 00:11
DaemonFCyeah, that was itAug 11 00:11
_Hicham_HP is a big Linux contributorAug 11 00:11
Balrog_DaemonFC: and portable apps blocked?Aug 11 00:11
_Hicham_just like DellAug 11 00:11
DaemonFCMS Windows, MS Office, Internet ExplorerAug 11 00:11
Balrog_there's Abiword Portable and OOo portableAug 11 00:11
DaemonFCthey use SteadyState with XPAug 11 00:11
DaemonFCthat way it deletes the acocunt when your time is upAug 11 00:12
Balrog_flash drivesAug 11 00:12
DaemonFCif gives you a countdown timer in the bottom right corner of the screenAug 11 00:12
Balrog_they do that here tooAug 11 00:12
DaemonFCno flash drives permittedAug 11 00:12
_Hicham_Only person not contributing to Linux is DaemonFCAug 11 00:12
Balrog_then how do you get data off the systems?Aug 11 00:12
Balrog_here they sell flash drives for $5 at the front deskAug 11 00:12
DaemonFCyou have to ask the librarian to transfer the file to the front desk and copy it for youAug 11 00:13
DaemonFC:)Aug 11 00:13
DaemonFCsame hereAug 11 00:13
Balrog_that's stupidAug 11 00:13
Balrog_if it's true :)Aug 11 00:13
DaemonFChas to be on their flash driveAug 11 00:13
Balrog_what's the excuse?Aug 11 00:13
DaemonFCviruses and spywareAug 11 00:13
DaemonFCthey also block all IE pluginsAug 11 00:13
Balrog_yeah, as if viruses and spyware can't get in some other way (i.e. through the internet)Aug 11 00:13
DaemonFCso you can't use FlashAug 11 00:13
_Hicham_normalAug 11 00:13
_Hicham_what do u want them to do?Aug 11 00:13
DaemonFCthe systems are so locked down that they are unusableAug 11 00:14
Balrog_they don't do that here, though an old version of flash is commonAug 11 00:14
_Hicham_let you insert you flash drive?Aug 11 00:14
Balrog_DaemonFC: do people use them?Aug 11 00:14
Balrog__Hicham_: flash drives are allowed hereAug 11 00:14
DaemonFCyeah, to browse and maybe copy off a few web pages to the main printerAug 11 00:14
Balrog_though apps running from them can't go out to the networkAug 11 00:14
_Hicham_Balrog_ : then they may be using some strong antivirusAug 11 00:14
schestowitzSO funny what Windows caused librariesAug 11 00:14
_Hicham_like KasperskyAug 11 00:14
schestowitzSo many restrictionsAug 11 00:14
Balrog__Hicham_: no antivirus is 100%Aug 11 00:15
schestowitzRather than bring your own live cd...Aug 11 00:15
DaemonFCwhen I go there to print something out, I e-mail the document to myselfAug 11 00:15
Balrog_find a 0-day exploit, install it deep in the system, they'll never knowAug 11 00:15
DaemonFCand print it from their terminalAug 11 00:15
Balrog_until it's too lateAug 11 00:15
_Hicham_Kaspersky in 100% combined with Least User PrivilegiesAug 11 00:15
_Hicham_*isAug 11 00:15
DaemonFCor email it back to myself when I'm done editing it thereAug 11 00:15
DaemonFCthat way I don't have to keep buying their flash drivesAug 11 00:15
Balrog_you can't bring back their flash drive?Aug 11 00:16
_Hicham_if IE wasn't that implemented that deep into Windows, maybe MS wouldn't have all those problemsAug 11 00:16
Balrog_DaemonFC: they used to do that with floppy disks back in the day, though that ended after they implemented a decent antivirusAug 11 00:16
DaemonFCno, once you buy it, you cannot plug it back into their systemsAug 11 00:16
Balrog_stupidAug 11 00:16
DaemonFCbecause it may have a virus on itAug 11 00:16
Balrog_I'd complain to my legislatorAug 11 00:16
Balrog_you shouldAug 11 00:16
Balrog_you're paying for it from tax moneyAug 11 00:16
*Xarver has quit (Remote closed the connection)Aug 11 00:16
DaemonFCI should, but it would be a major pain in the assAug 11 00:17
_Hicham_Government should stop using WindowsAug 11 00:17
Balrog_DaemonFC: how so?Aug 11 00:17
DaemonFCand I don't have the money to fight them in court anywayAug 11 00:17
_Hicham_I wouldn't develop a single bit of a program for WindowsAug 11 00:17
schestowitz_Hicham_: or else?Aug 11 00:17
Balrog__Hicham_: if my Qt program works in Windows, that's just a side effect ;)Aug 11 00:17
_Hicham_schestowitz : or else they will be spied on by MSAug 11 00:18
DaemonFCmy State Senator is a Republican who misses pretty much all votes anyway unless they're religiously motivatedAug 11 00:18
_Hicham_I don't trust sthg that I don't have the source forAug 11 00:18
DaemonFClike the anti-gay provisions he keeps introducingAug 11 00:18
Balrog_DaemonFC: what state is this?Aug 11 00:18
_Hicham_I feel guilty for using FlashAug 11 00:18
DaemonFCI doubt he caresAug 11 00:18
Balrog_and what about your local government?Aug 11 00:18
schestowitz_Hicham_: as they found out in QUinn's departmentAug 11 00:18
DaemonFCIndianaAug 11 00:18
DaemonFCdistrict government is all RepublicansAug 11 00:19
schestowitzThey'd oust oppositionAug 11 00:19
Balrog_ahh :\Aug 11 00:19
schestowitzLike a bunch of bulliesAug 11 00:19
DaemonFCmayor was found abusing city resources by browsing porn on the systemAug 11 00:19
Balrog_this isn't a Democrat / Republican issueAug 11 00:19
DaemonFCnothing was ever doneAug 11 00:19
Balrog_wow. It didn't get publicized?Aug 11 00:19
_Hicham_schestowitz : you should remove those Flash videos from BNAug 11 00:19
DaemonFCit got publicizedAug 11 00:19
DaemonFCre-elected with 87% of the voteAug 11 00:19
_Hicham_schestowitz : it is a shameAug 11 00:19
Balrog_wowAug 11 00:19
Balrog_conservatives!?Aug 11 00:19
schestowitzDaemonFC: Clinton was abusing public interns by surfing Monica, so/Aug 11 00:19
DaemonFCbig time conservativesAug 11 00:19
Balrog_those aren't real conservativesAug 11 00:20
DaemonFCvote for the Republican, not the personAug 11 00:20
_Hicham_schestowitz : no, Monica was hitting on himAug 11 00:20
schestowitz_Hicham_: Mozila?Aug 11 00:20
schestowitz_Hicham_: Mozilla video?Aug 11 00:20
DaemonFCwe need the sheriff from Walking TallAug 11 00:20
DaemonFCthis town is that coruptAug 11 00:20
schestowitzSome peopple don't have OggAug 11 00:20
DaemonFC:)Aug 11 00:20
schestowitzSo I suppose both where possibleAug 11 00:20
_Hicham_schestowitz : no, Flash video from youtubeAug 11 00:20
Balrog_DaemonFC: that's bad :(Aug 11 00:21
_Hicham_schestowitz : they must upgradeAug 11 00:21
_Hicham_schestowitz : MUSTAug 11 00:21
DaemonFCWalmart runs the entire townAug 11 00:21
DaemonFCthe Republican policies have forced out almost all manufacturing jobsAug 11 00:22
DaemonFCdriven the wages down to minimum wage or not much moreAug 11 00:22
_Hicham_forcing People to move to HTML 5 is a way to kill SilverLieAug 11 00:22
DaemonFCevery election it's the same crapAug 11 00:22
DaemonFCGod and JesusAug 11 00:22
DaemonFCthen they go right back to surfing porn and taking bribesAug 11 00:22
Balrog_DaemonFC: what happened to separation of church and state?Aug 11 00:22
DaemonFCHAH!Aug 11 00:23
DaemonFCgood oneAug 11 00:23
_Hicham_schestowitz : who doesn't have ogg ? Windows users ?Aug 11 00:23
Balrog_DaemonFC: not that being religious is bad, but the legislators are supposed to handle civil mattersAug 11 00:23
DaemonFCI would run for mayor against that guy but I'm certain they would have me killedAug 11 00:23
Balrog_DaemonFC: you think you could win? :)Aug 11 00:23
DaemonFCIf I got a decent chance to have people listen, probablyAug 11 00:24
Balrog_interesting.Aug 11 00:24
DaemonFCif the sheriff's dept didn't kill me and plant cocaine and a revolver on my bodyAug 11 00:24
DaemonFC:)Aug 11 00:24
DaemonFCsure, why not?Aug 11 00:24
Balrog_maybe that's why some people carry firearms (I'm not talking about the criminals here)Aug 11 00:25
Balrog_:)Aug 11 00:25
DaemonFCI may sign up for the primary election anywayAug 11 00:26
DaemonFCI'm about sick with our current mayorAug 11 00:26
DaemonFCthings would get worse in the short term under me thoughAug 11 00:27
DaemonFCbecause I'd veto every wasteful spending measure and corporate favor that got handed to meAug 11 00:27
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[trmanco] RT @mashable Facebook Paid Nearly $50 Million for FriendFeed 11 00:28
Balrog_DaemonFC: which is good.Aug 11 00:28
DaemonFCand it's kind of hard to campaign on "I'll make shit worser for you in the short term"Aug 11 00:28
Balrog_can't they override vetoes though?Aug 11 00:28
DaemonFC*worseAug 11 00:28
Balrog_DaemonFC: then omit that partAug 11 00:28
DaemonFCno, they can'tAug 11 00:28
Balrog_or say it but in a roundabout wayAug 11 00:28
DaemonFCthey have to send you a new version of the billAug 11 00:29
Balrog_that's goodAug 11 00:29
DaemonFCI'd tell them "This, this, and this, gone, or I'll veto it again and I don't care how long this stalls us out because people will be looking at you, I promise"Aug 11 00:29
DaemonFCheheAug 11 00:29
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DaemonFCI'm on reasonably good terms with the local DemocratsAug 11 00:31
DaemonFCwe don't hold any seats thoughAug 11 00:31
thenixedreportHey everyone.Aug 11 00:31
thenixedreportHow goes it?Aug 11 00:31
DaemonFCdiscussing local government corruption by Microsoft and Walmart and friendsAug 11 00:32
DaemonFC:PAug 11 00:32
DaemonFCI'd compare Walmart to the casino in Walking TallAug 11 00:33
DaemonFCI really wouldAug 11 00:33
Balrog_DaemonFC: I don't have a problem with decent, non-corrupt conservatives ... but there aren't that many of them :XAug 11 00:34
Balrog_our city is run by Democrats and many are corruptAug 11 00:34
DaemonFCWalmart came in and bribed all the politicians in my hometown into ruining the town for all manufacturing jobsAug 11 00:34
_Hicham_corruption is everywhereAug 11 00:35
DaemonFCthen they came in, opened up a Walmart warehouse, and everyone had to work there for what they were payingAug 11 00:35
_Hicham_show a place in the world that is not corruptedAug 11 00:35
_Hicham_(except Scandinavian Countries maybe)Aug 11 00:35
DaemonFCWalmart single handedly brought the average hourly wage in Grant County down from about $12 an hourAug 11 00:35
DaemonFCto about $9 an hourAug 11 00:35
Balrog_that's not that goodAug 11 00:36
thenixedreportWalmart relies on government subsidies.Aug 11 00:36
thenixedreportIf that goes away, then so does Walmart.Aug 11 00:36
Balrog_I'm a part-time STUDENT and I get paid $10Aug 11 00:36
Balrog_(part time student worker)Aug 11 00:36
Balrog_(full time student)Aug 11 00:36
Balrog_:)Aug 11 00:36
DaemonFCGrant County Indiana used to manufacture televisions, cars parts, furniture, you name itAug 11 00:37
DaemonFCnow there's a lot of empty buildings, drug dealers, and a Walmart dsistribution centerAug 11 00:37
Balrog_wow. When did this happen!?Aug 11 00:37
DaemonFCit's blighted and poverty strickenAug 11 00:37
DaemonFCgraduallyAug 11 00:37
Balrog_when did it start?Aug 11 00:37
Balrog_Here it's no differentAug 11 00:38
DaemonFCit started around 1998 and got to this point around 2004Aug 11 00:38
Balrog_except that Philadelphia is a major metropolitan areaAug 11 00:38
DaemonFCit's gotten slightly worse since then as all the little businesses that relied on the good wage payers are folding upAug 11 00:38
DaemonFCnow it's about bottomed outAug 11 00:38
thenixedreportWhere I'm at happens to be a college town too.Aug 11 00:38
DaemonFCWalmart loves college towns because they can rely on customers using student loan moneyAug 11 00:39
thenixedreportTrue, but it also means they can't dominate.Aug 11 00:39
DaemonFCand an infinite supply of disposable low income part time workersAug 11 00:39
DaemonFCwith high turnoverAug 11 00:39
thenixedreportBecause let's face it.Aug 11 00:39
DaemonFCUnions, full time work, healthcare benefits, retirement planAug 11 00:40
thenixedreportIf Wally World is on the other end of town, and what's needed is within walking distance, would it be worth it to go to Wally World?Aug 11 00:40
DaemonFCthe four terms that Walmart won't stand forAug 11 00:40
thenixedreportProbably not.Aug 11 00:40
DaemonFCpeople do thoughAug 11 00:40
thenixedreportAnd believe it or not, I won't stand for them... at least for myself anyway.Aug 11 00:40
DaemonFCeven when the other stores have lower pricesAug 11 00:40
thenixedreportThe problem is that benefits can disappear at any time.Aug 11 00:40
DaemonFCpeople drive right past them to go to WalmartAug 11 00:40
thenixedreportSo I don't personally rely on them to see me through.Aug 11 00:41
thenixedreportNot everyone drives.Aug 11 00:41
DaemonFCmanagement goes driving through town before a Walmart is planned in that townAug 11 00:41
thenixedreportThere's Pine Street in Warrensburg.Aug 11 00:41
DaemonFCand submits a report to upper management about how long it will take to run each business out of townAug 11 00:41
thenixedreport(Which the city counsel is trying to get rid of)Aug 11 00:41
Balrog_DaemonFC: how does that happen!?Aug 11 00:42
thenixedreportAgain, if the federal government went bankrupt, Walmart couldn't exist in it's current form.Aug 11 00:42
DaemonFCWalmart relies on loss leader items and unsustainably low pricesAug 11 00:42
thenixedreportThey rely on government subsidies.Aug 11 00:42
DaemonFCtil they run everyone else outAug 11 00:42
DaemonFCthen their prices are higher than the other stores had to begin withAug 11 00:42
DaemonFCI'll give you an example, the Walmart here is trying to ruin ALDI, a competing grocery storeAug 11 00:43
Balrog_(and how do you know?)Aug 11 00:43
DaemonFCso they send managers to ALDI to jot down pricesAug 11 00:43
DaemonFCand make sure that Walmart's store brands are cheaperAug 11 00:43
thenixedreport@Balrog_, if this is the same person I think it is, he would know.Aug 11 00:43
DaemonFCthey also tell Walmart managers to keep an eye out for other stores doing the same thing to WalmartAug 11 00:43
Balrog_thenixedreport: OKAug 11 00:43
Balrog_DaemonFC: that's not good :(Aug 11 00:44
*tacone has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out))Aug 11 00:44
DaemonFCif you see someone in the store looking at merchandise and pecking the data into a PDA or whatever you're supposed to confront themAug 11 00:44
Balrog_does Aldi know? (ALDI has a store here too; they're a European company)Aug 11 00:44
thenixedreportIf DaemonFC is who I think he is... he was once a member of management for Wally World.Aug 11 00:44
DaemonFCthey know it happensAug 11 00:44
thenixedreport:)Aug 11 00:44
DaemonFCthey don't know who is doing itAug 11 00:44
DaemonFCWalmart sends Loss Prevention to shop at ALDI and actually buy some things so nobody gets suspiciousAug 11 00:45
DaemonFCLoss Prevention = Walmart store securityAug 11 00:45
Balrog_DaemonFC: you'd better have something for self defense if you're going to run in the primary :)Aug 11 00:45
*Lns has quit ("Φ")Aug 11 00:45
thenixedreportSo daemon, are you actually getting involved in local politics?Aug 11 00:45
thenixedreport:)Aug 11 00:46
DaemonFCconsidering itAug 11 00:46
thenixedreportMeh, give it a shot.Aug 11 00:46
DaemonFCthere's a device that Walmart gives out to their comp shoppersAug 11 00:46
thenixedreportIt'll give you a reason to get out of bed in the morning.Aug 11 00:46
thenixedreport?Aug 11 00:46
thenixedreportThis one I haven't heard about.Aug 11 00:46
DaemonFCit looks like a calculator so it appears they're just totalling up their grocery billAug 11 00:46
DaemonFCit has a scanner in it though which records pricing infoAug 11 00:46
DaemonFCyou take it back to Walmart and plug it into the store computerAug 11 00:47
DaemonFCand it automatically lowers all of Walmart's pricesAug 11 00:47
DaemonFCto about 5-10% lowerAug 11 00:47
DaemonFCthan what the other store hasAug 11 00:47
DaemonFChow edo I know? because I've used oneAug 11 00:47
DaemonFCwhen the store computer analyzes the data, it sends the reports to the department managersAug 11 00:48
DaemonFCand they retag the merchandise and set the new pricesAug 11 00:48
DaemonFCit's all pretty automatedAug 11 00:49
DaemonFCthe store central computer is using Suse Enterprise Linux ServerAug 11 00:50
DaemonFCand the data entry systems are using a mix of Windows 2003, XP EmbeddedAug 11 00:50
thenixedreportInteresting....Aug 11 00:50
DaemonFCand the handheld scanners use Windows CE and SCO UNIXAug 11 00:50
DaemonFCthe older ones use SCO UNIXAug 11 00:50
DaemonFCthe replacements have Windows CEAug 11 00:50
thenixedreportSo when too many of one item is "accidentally ordered" it actually means that they're being under-priced to hurt the competition?Aug 11 00:51
DaemonFCthat's one reasonAug 11 00:51
DaemonFCanother reason you can get like "3 pallets of TV dinners" is because the warehouse is rotating stockAug 11 00:51
DaemonFCand those go bad firstAug 11 00:51
DaemonFCthey don't care if it's your problem because if they write it off, it comes out of their bonusesAug 11 00:52
DaemonFCand if you do, it comes out of yoursAug 11 00:52
thenixedreportHmmm.Aug 11 00:53
thenixedreportInteresting.Aug 11 00:53
DaemonFCso it's a "downward pressure" management model that makes you deal with all their problems while they make all the moneyAug 11 00:53
DaemonFCassistant manager is the worst job in that companyAug 11 00:53
thenixedreportSo if a can of Chef Boyardee Ravioli is set to $.88, does that mean they're trying to rotate 'em out?Aug 11 00:53
DaemonFCnoAug 11 00:53
DaemonFCprobably means that your store went comp shopping and Kroger has them for 94 centsAug 11 00:54
DaemonFC:)Aug 11 00:54
DaemonFCWalmart is very methodicalAug 11 00:54
thenixedreportActually, there is no Kroger in my area.Aug 11 00:54
DaemonFCwell, it was an exampleAug 11 00:54
DaemonFCsomeone has them at a higher priceAug 11 00:54
thenixedreportThere's Aldi, Parker's, and Country Mart.Aug 11 00:54
DaemonFCor else Walmart's comptuer wouldn't do thatAug 11 00:55
thenixedreportI see.Aug 11 00:55
DaemonFC*computerAug 11 00:55
thenixedreportAnother question.Aug 11 00:55
thenixedreportSay an "associate" who works overnight requests time off on a certain date.Aug 11 00:55
DaemonFCyour choiceAug 11 00:55
thenixedreportCan any assistant manager deal with it or can only overnight managers deal with it one way or another?Aug 11 00:55
DaemonFCif they have vacation time, it must be scheduled at least two weeks in advanceAug 11 00:56
DaemonFCat your discretionAug 11 00:56
DaemonFCstore or co-manager can override youAug 11 00:56
DaemonFCif they don't have vacation time and you need to bust payroll anyway, let them have it as an unpaid day offAug 11 00:56
DaemonFCotherwise, don't give it to themAug 11 00:56
thenixedreportSo say a bonus is about to paid out.Aug 11 00:57
DaemonFCwhen does that happen!? lolAug 11 00:57
DaemonFCthat's jsut a carrot on a stickAug 11 00:57
thenixedreportIs it common to see people have extra days off about a month before that happens?Aug 11 00:57
DaemonFCwhen a supercenter opens, nobody gets a bonus until the cost of building the store is paid off through several budgetary methodsAug 11 00:58
DaemonFCso you won't see a bonus for at least 5-6 yearsAug 11 00:58
DaemonFCthe store and co manager willAug 11 00:58
DaemonFCbut that's in their contractAug 11 00:58
thenixedreportLet's assume the store is older than 6 years.Aug 11 00:58
DaemonFCso you know there will be a bonus already and the only question is how much?Aug 11 00:58
DaemonFCyes, the store manager gets 2% of net profit and the co manager(s) gets 1%Aug 11 00:59
DaemonFCso if they start getting anal about payroll one month out, that's whyAug 11 00:59
DaemonFCsometimes 2-3 months outAug 11 00:59
DaemonFCyou'll see people getting written up for one minute of overtimeAug 11 01:00
DaemonFCall kinds of crazy shitAug 11 01:00
thenixedreportSay people are scheduled for exactly 40 hours a week.Aug 11 01:00
DaemonFCthey're luckyAug 11 01:01
DaemonFCbut go on...Aug 11 01:01
thenixedreportOvernights that is...Aug 11 01:01
DaemonFCyeah, overnights are the last place you cutAug 11 01:01
thenixedreportI see.Aug 11 01:01
DaemonFCso you're doing goodAug 11 01:01
thenixedreportSo overnights have a little bit of leeway in terms of overtime as long as it's not more than an hour.Aug 11 01:01
DaemonFCwhen you have to cut overnights, floor crew (janitors) go firstAug 11 01:01
DaemonFCcashiers usually get cut nextAug 11 01:02
DaemonFCthen the stockersAug 11 01:02
DaemonFCthen the hourly managementAug 11 01:02
thenixedreportI see.Aug 11 01:02
thenixedreportSo that would explain some stores being short cashiers some nights.Aug 11 01:02
DaemonFCif you have a store with third shift greeters, then they go before floor crewAug 11 01:02
DaemonFCyeah, happens all the timeAug 11 01:02
thenixedreportSome stores use third party security firms.Aug 11 01:03
DaemonFCthe less encessary you are, the more hours you get cutAug 11 01:03
DaemonFC*necessaryAug 11 01:03
DaemonFCthey also base total store payroll on sales last year for this weekAug 11 01:03
DaemonFCwith major holidays being the exceptionAug 11 01:03
DaemonFCand inventoryAug 11 01:03
DaemonFCthey'll cut you to make that up laterAug 11 01:04
DaemonFCyou may get some overtime at the moment thoughAug 11 01:04
DaemonFCthey'll work their part time people more hours before they start offering real overtimeAug 11 01:04
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DaemonFCthe computer does staff scheduling if the managers don't finalize their schedule by 00:01 on SaturdayAug 11 01:05
DaemonFCand it does weird shitAug 11 01:05
DaemonFCthen you have to grab each employee, take them aside, and get them to sign off on their new hoursAug 11 01:05
thenixedreportlolAug 11 01:05
DaemonFCand override the time clock to let them clock inAug 11 01:06
thenixedreportSo if there's a shift for two hours....Aug 11 01:06
thenixedreportIt was the computer.Aug 11 01:06
DaemonFCmajor pain in the ass, you will be reamedAug 11 01:06
DaemonFCusually, yeahAug 11 01:06
thenixedreportSome stores automate the process.Aug 11 01:06
DaemonFCI've never scheduled anyone for less than 4 hoursAug 11 01:06
DaemonFCthere's no pointAug 11 01:06
DaemonFCthey only say they doAug 11 01:07
thenixedreportIn other words, the time clock allows the associate to enter a member of management to do the over-ride.Aug 11 01:07
DaemonFCthat way you can't blame them if they give you a bad scheduleAug 11 01:07
DaemonFCeven if they typed it in by handAug 11 01:07
thenixedreportSo they don't have to go hunting for a manager when the clock rejects them (due to a scheduling error or other reason....)Aug 11 01:08
DaemonFCyeah, when they messed up the schedules and then basically admitted it, I had to fix themAug 11 01:08
DaemonFCand stand by the time clock, overriding it for everybodyAug 11 01:08
thenixedreportAt some stores, that doesn't happen anymore.Aug 11 01:08
DaemonFCsometimes the co manager will get a bug up their ass and think they can make a better schedule than youAug 11 01:08
thenixedreportMangement looks at it after the fact.Aug 11 01:08
DaemonFCthat's why that happensAug 11 01:08
thenixedreportI see.Aug 11 01:08
DaemonFCthere were weeks where I wanted to strangle herAug 11 01:09
DaemonFC:PAug 11 01:09
DaemonFCwe had this really bipolar comanagerAug 11 01:09
DaemonFCshe was annoying as all hellAug 11 01:09
DaemonFCand had a real "hands on" motivational approachAug 11 01:10
DaemonFCread "Scheduled herself on overnights to scare everyone"Aug 11 01:10
DaemonFCI put up with that for over a year before I leftAug 11 01:10
DaemonFCthat woman will rip out your intestines and make balloon animalsAug 11 01:11
DaemonFCand that's on a good dayAug 11 01:11
DaemonFCher name was Dottie, so I started calling her "Hurricane Dottie"Aug 11 01:11
DaemonFCafter that vicious storm that one yearAug 11 01:12
DaemonFCwake of destructionAug 11 01:13
DaemonFCall that good stuffAug 11 01:13
DaemonFCwhen she wasn't there at night I'd turn off "Walmart Radio"Aug 11 01:14
DaemonFCtune it to the rock stationAug 11 01:14
DaemonFC:)Aug 11 01:14
DaemonFC 11 01:14
DaemonFCgot that in real clearAug 11 01:14
DaemonFCgood timesAug 11 01:15
*Tallken has quit ("Leaving.")Aug 11 01:15
DaemonFCwellAug 11 01:18
DaemonFCthat's interestingAug 11 01:18
Balrog_walmart radio?Aug 11 01:18
DaemonFCschestowitz: Firefox is recommending Windows Media PlayerAug 11 01:19
Balrog_DaemonFC: how so!?Aug 11 01:19
DaemonFCBalrog_: Walmart Radio is the store's satellite radio networkAug 11 01:19
DaemonFCall stores play the same music at the same timeAug 11 01:19
thenixedreportbrbAug 11 01:19
DaemonFCBalrog_: When you click to stream Windows Media, Firefox sends you here:Aug 11 01:19
DaemonFC 11 01:19
DaemonFCBalrog_:  uploading a pictureAug 11 01:23
DaemonFC 11 01:23
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DaemonFCit does not recommend VLCAug 11 01:24
Balrog_hrmAug 11 01:24
DaemonFCeven though VLC is free software and can play Windows Media Audio over MMSAug 11 01:24
Balrog_does the Windows VLC plugin work right?Aug 11 01:24
Balrog_DaemonFC: why Vista7 anyway?Aug 11 01:24
DaemonFCit does unless the stream is encryptedAug 11 01:24
DaemonFCprobably why they recommend Windows Media PlayerAug 11 01:25
DaemonFCnow that I think about itAug 11 01:25
Balrog_DaemonFC: is there any way to circumvent encryption ...? I know about RTMPdump but that's for Flash-based stuffAug 11 01:25
DaemonFCit hooks into The Janus/PlaysForSure Windows Media DRMAug 11 01:25
DaemonFCjust like subscription tracks you'd get on Napster or whateverAug 11 01:25
Balrog_ahh :(Aug 11 01:25
DaemonFCso the streaming ausio is also Linux incompatibleAug 11 01:26
DaemonFCbut it will work on a Mac with Flip4MacAug 11 01:26
Balrog_DaemonFC: Flip4Mac isn't DRM compatibleAug 11 01:26
Balrog_and WMP streaming works with VLCAug 11 01:26
DaemonFCyes it isAug 11 01:26
DaemonFCfor streamingAug 11 01:26
Balrog_/WMAAug 11 01:27
DaemonFC"Protected WMA" is unsupported by VLCAug 11 01:27
DaemonFCit has to be "unprotected" to playAug 11 01:27
Balrog_DaemonFC: can you link me to a protected stream?Aug 11 01:27
Balrog_or is 989radio one of those?Aug 11 01:27
DaemonFC 11 01:27
DaemonFCyeah, you may have to ctrl click it to get the window to openAug 11 01:27
DaemonFCsee if it works on LinuxAug 11 01:28
Balrog_DaemonFC: IAug 11 01:28
DaemonFCor what Firefox tells you to doAug 11 01:28
Balrog_I'm successfully dumping the stream with 'mplayer -dumpstream'Aug 11 01:29
Balrog_I've done that in the past for WPITAug 11 01:29
DaemonFCmplayer is playing that stream?Aug 11 01:29
Balrog_yesAug 11 01:29
DaemonFCthat's weirdAug 11 01:29
DaemonFCVLC just hangsAug 11 01:29
Balrog_but first you have to dump the stream that looks like ' .....'Aug 11 01:29
DaemonFCI assumed they were using stream encryptionAug 11 01:29
Balrog_open the stream.dump file in a text editorAug 11 01:29
Balrog_then find the mms urlAug 11 01:29
Balrog_and play *that*Aug 11 01:29
Balrog_it's convoluted :(Aug 11 01:29
Balrog_ but it worksAug 11 01:29
DaemonFCvery :PAug 11 01:30
Balrog_streams like that play fine with the VLC pluginAug 11 01:30
DaemonFCand the Windows Media plugin crashes FirefoxAug 11 01:30
DaemonFClovelyAug 11 01:30
*Balrog_ has quit ()Aug 11 01:31
DaemonFC 11 01:32
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DaemonFCnow it's workingAug 11 01:34
DaemonFC:PAug 11 01:34
DaemonFCgahAug 11 01:34
DaemonFCthe radio station sounds better than the WMA streamAug 11 01:34
DaemonFClmaoAug 11 01:34
Balrog_DaemonFC : which plugin?Aug 11 01:34
DaemonFCWindows Media PlayerAug 11 01:34
Balrog_obviouslyAug 11 01:34
Balrog_dump the stream with mplayer ;)Aug 11 01:35
DaemonFC64kbps WMA I assumeAug 11 01:35
DaemonFCnot much left of the stream at that bitrateAug 11 01:35
Balrog_oh ... is there a way to script a dump for a certain time period regularlyAug 11 01:35
DaemonFCjsut slightly better than MP3Aug 11 01:35
DaemonFCat low bitratesAug 11 01:35
Balrog_and have it stop after a certain timeAug 11 01:35
Balrog_WMA sucksAug 11 01:35
DaemonFClistening tests show that WMA is better than MP3 under 128kbpsAug 11 01:36
DaemonFCthere they tie, and above that, MP3 winsAug 11 01:36
Balrog_but what about AAC and vorbis?Aug 11 01:36
DaemonFCit makes sense considering that MP3 was never optimized for low bitratesAug 11 01:36
DaemonFCAAC and Vorbis should be tied with WMA Standard, maybe a bit better or worseAug 11 01:37
DaemonFCHE-AAC is unbeatable at 64kbpsAug 11 01:37
DaemonFCand that's part of the MPEG-4 standardAug 11 01:37
DaemonFCthere's no license needed to stream it, so you should use that if your other choice is WMAAug 11 01:38
DaemonFCWMA Standard, LC-AAC, and Vorbis use a lot of the same design ideas, but vorbis encoders are better tunedAug 11 01:38
DaemonFCI would say the advantage would most likely go to VorbisAug 11 01:38
DaemonFCmeh, they're onto "Mandatory Metallica", I have everything from Metallica anywayAug 11 01:39
DaemonFCamazes me that they give Metallica so much airtimeAug 11 01:40
DaemonFCBalrog_: Why would I want to record a shitty low bitrate WMA stream? lolAug 11 01:42
DaemonFC98.9 used to do a lot of advertisements for "Twenty Past Four" heheAug 11 01:43
DaemonFCthose were always amusingAug 11 01:43
DaemonFCstore in Fort Wayne that sells "tobacco" pipes  and "tobacco" accessories ;)Aug 11 01:44
DaemonFCIndiana law says it's not drug paraphernalia until it has resin on it, so they can sell pretty much anything they want under a "no return" policyAug 11 01:45
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DaemonFCI would never use IIS by the wayAug 11 02:00
DaemonFCschestowitz mentioned it on hat twitter ddos pageAug 11 02:00
yuhongIn fact, if you are able to attach a debugger at the right time, debugging the 7 CHKDSK issue should be easy.Aug 11 02:01
yuhongIn fact, MS has a tradition of providing public symbols for their OS since NT 3.1.Aug 11 02:01
DaemonFClooks liek Walmart is hosted on IIS 6 on Windows 2003Aug 11 02:01
DaemonFCouchAug 11 02:01
yuhongAnd this include CHKDSK.Aug 11 02:02
DaemonFCnot all of their site is thoughAug 11 02:02
DaemonFCsome subdomains are on Linux and ApacheAug 11 02:02
yuhongIn fact, they later made it easy to download symbols thanks to a symbol server.Aug 11 02:02
DaemonFCWalmart MP3 is on CentOSAug 11 02:02
DaemonFCWalmart photos is on FreeBSDAug 11 02:03
yuhongSomething gdb still lacks, the best Ubuntu can do is ddeb packages, which has to be manually installed.Aug 11 02:03
DaemonFCsome of their international sites are on LinuxAug 11 02:03
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yuhongInteresting, but what I am saying is that debugging the Win7 CHKDSK issue should be easy.Aug 11 02:07
DaemonFCwhy the hell should you have to debug something you can't fix when they sold it to you as a finished product without the tools to fix it?Aug 11 02:10
DaemonFCthat's fucking crazyAug 11 02:10
DaemonFCsorry to put it that way but it isAug 11 02:10
yuhongYou could do binary patching, but the best thing to do would to call CSS and work to create a hotfix.Aug 11 02:11
yuhongThat costs time and often money though.Aug 11 02:11
DaemonFCWindows is "No user-serviceable parts inside"Aug 11 02:12
*tacone has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer))Aug 11 02:12
yuhongWell, unfortunately, yes, WFP in 2000 and later make it harder to replace system files.Aug 11 02:14
yuhongThe justification was that programs was incorrectly replacing system files causing the OS to misbehave.Aug 11 02:14
yuhongThey even stepped it up with Vista, look at the test signing Geoff Chappell had to do to get his PAE hack working.Aug 11 02:15
DaemonFCareyou talking about illegally hacking on them with a hex editor and overriding Windows File ProtectionAug 11 02:16
DaemonFCawesome, sign me upAug 11 02:16
yuhongIllegal? Not always.Aug 11 02:17
twitterM$ watch ->  At the company’s annual financial analysts meeting in Redmond, Wash. July 30, server and tools group president Bob Muglia said “supplanting and replacing VMware is much more straightforward” than getting businesses to switch from other operating systems to Windows. Companies simply don’t have as much work invested in running applications in conjunction with VMware. Or, as Muglia put it, “It takes me 90 secondsAug 11 02:18
twitter 11 02:18
yuhongIf you break DRM by hacking, then yes the DMCA can punish you.Aug 11 02:18
twitterM$ thinks it's good to be a roach motel.Aug 11 02:18
twitterData goes in but don't go out.Aug 11 02:18
yuhongAnyway, I recently did such a binary hack on msvidctl.dll to patch the recent MS Video hole.Aug 11 02:19
Balrog_bleh ... even Mac OS encryption is easy to get around and isn't so pervasiveAug 11 02:19
yuhongIt consists of changing a lea instruction to a mov.Aug 11 02:19
yuhongI posted the details as a comment to one of MS's blogs.Aug 11 02:21
twitterit's the intent that counts, not their competence.  Why deal with people like that?Aug 11 02:21
Balrog_URL?Aug 11 02:21
twittersee aboveAug 11 02:22
twitteralso includes a fraud street analyst donwgrading VMware to "underperform" based on high share price and unlikely revenue.Aug 11 02:23
twitterM$ shills.Aug 11 02:23
yuhongHere it is, if you want to try it:Aug 11 02:23
thenixedreport:)Aug 11 02:23
yuhong 11 02:23
thenixedreportWorking on my little computer lab some more.Aug 11 02:25
thenixedreportI figured out what I wanted to do with the un-used computer desk (put another system or two onto it.... lol).Aug 11 02:26
thenixedreportCentOS is growing on me.Aug 11 02:26
thenixedreport:)Aug 11 02:26
DaemonFCif they're not paying me to fix their software and aren't even interested in fixing it themselvesAug 11 02:31
DaemonFCwhy am I going to attach gdb to it?Aug 11 02:31
yuhongWinDbg/KD/NTSD/CDB is used for Windows, not GDB.Aug 11 02:31
yuhongGDB is available for Windows, but cannot read the PDB symbol format used by Windows.Aug 11 02:32
DaemonFCfiguresAug 11 02:33
DaemonFCa lot of proprietary software is designed to crash if it thinks you are debugging it anywayAug 11 02:34
DaemonFCwhich is why Daemon Tools has to use a rootkiit to cloak the virtual disc drives it createsAug 11 02:34
DaemonFCotherwise a lot of software will detect it and crash intentionallyAug 11 02:35
DaemonFC*rootkitAug 11 02:35
yuhongYep, see 11 02:35
yuhongNot most MS software however.Aug 11 02:35
DaemonFCDaemon Tools also has to randomly name its processesAug 11 02:35
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DaemonFCotherwise it can be detected by things like SecuROMAug 11 02:36
DaemonFCcopy protection is becoming more and more vicious and interferes with the way Windows worksAug 11 02:36
DaemonFCso Microsoft is actually providing them with supported ways of hooking into the Windows kernelAug 11 02:37
DaemonFCbecause the DRM drivers like Securom and Starforce used to corrupt the kernel and crash WindowsAug 11 02:38
DaemonFCwhich alerted the user to the fact that there was something wrongAug 11 02:38
DaemonFCso now if you pay Microsoft a huge sum of money, your DRM driver gets signed just like you were a hardware makerAug 11 02:39
DaemonFCMicrosoft will let any exploitative bastards subvert your computer given enough moneyAug 11 02:39
DaemonFCthey'd probably officially sanction spyware vendors if the public backlash wouldn't be so enormousAug 11 02:40
Balrog_DaemonFC: there's this guy who writes an anti anti debug extension for Mac, and explains methods ... reverse.put.asAug 11 02:41
DaemonFCso yeah, Daemon Tools is probably your best bet around that anti-user bullshit that likes to latch on to WindowsAug 11 02:41
Balrog_in most cases it's third party apps doing thisAug 11 02:41
DaemonFCyeahAug 11 02:41
DaemonFCmeans Apple has the same policy as Microsoft on this, apparentlyAug 11 02:41
Balrog_though iTunes and DVD player do thisAug 11 02:41
DaemonFCletting exploitative DRM companies subvert your machineAug 11 02:42
DaemonFCif the price is rightAug 11 02:42
Balrog_DaemonFC: you mean about kernel drivers?Aug 11 02:42
DaemonFCyesAug 11 02:42
DaemonFCabsolutelyAug 11 02:42
Balrog_Apple allows unsigned kernel driversAug 11 02:42
DaemonFCahhhAug 11 02:42
Balrog_they just have to have correct permissions or they won't loadAug 11 02:42
DaemonFCso it's even easier to subvert a Mac than Windows 64-bit with "PatchGuard"Aug 11 02:42
DaemonFCcoolAug 11 02:42
DaemonFCheheAug 11 02:42
Balrog_if you can get rootAug 11 02:43
Balrog_that isAug 11 02:43
DaemonFCat least with Windows, Microsoft won't officially allow it unless you pay them tens of thousands of dollarsAug 11 02:43
DaemonFCyouAug 11 02:43
DaemonFCyou're saying that anyone can do this to a Mac, for freeAug 11 02:43
DaemonFC:)Aug 11 02:43
Balrog_look up logKext :)Aug 11 02:43
Balrog_the code is foss and could easily be used for nefarious purposesAug 11 02:44
DaemonFCit's probably equally easy to do to Linux, it's just that the motivation isn't there because the userbase doesn't make it profitableAug 11 02:44
Balrog_and root access is needed.Aug 11 02:45
DaemonFCwell, a Windows program gets the permission it needs to do that as soon as you click on the Accept button in the UAC promptAug 11 02:45
Balrog_I.e. the app requests the user's password, which should happen only rarely (installs or updates)Aug 11 02:45
DaemonFCbut yeah, it sneaks in because it's piggybacking on a legitimate applicationAug 11 02:45
Balrog_but UAC is waaay too frequentAug 11 02:45
Balrog_that's how the iWork and the Photoshop Trojans got inAug 11 02:46
Balrog_iWork ... was injected into the installerAug 11 02:46
Balrog_Photoshop ... was distributed with a crackAug 11 02:47
Balrog_both require root authAug 11 02:47
DaemonFCmmhmAug 11 02:47
DaemonFCso really it's just like Windows except that it may not have gotten kernel access on WindowsAug 11 02:47
DaemonFCbecause it wasn't signedAug 11 02:47
DaemonFCdriver signing is about keeping the organized crime that hasn't paid Microsoft out of the kernelAug 11 02:48
Balrog_driver signing is to ensure monopolyAug 11 02:48
DaemonFCso patchguard might protect you from a trojan horse that's not like Securom or StarforceAug 11 02:48
DaemonFCnow if you're a kindler, gentler, more benign-looking organized crime with lots of money to dump in Microsoft's lap, you get into the kernelAug 11 02:49
DaemonFCit's really splitting hairs to not call DRM companies organized crimeAug 11 02:50
DaemonFCthe only reason they aren't outlawed is because they bankroll the election of public officials that make the lawAug 11 02:50
DaemonFCyou're starting to see some of that on Linux anyway, btwAug 11 02:51
DaemonFCI can cite an example for thatAug 11 02:51
DaemonFCthat Linux game company, what was their name?Aug 11 02:51
DaemonFCthey have an activation schemeAug 11 02:52
DaemonFCthey made games like X2: The ThreatAug 11 02:52
Balrog_(for some reason kernel level DRM is uncommon on Mac OS ... it's more of anti debug code in the binary and code encryption, sometimes nasty forms of it)Aug 11 02:52
DaemonFCwell, if gaming on Linux takes off, that's the next logical stepAug 11 02:52
DaemonFCinfecting the kernelAug 11 02:52
DaemonFCas a precondition of installing the gameAug 11 02:52
DaemonFChow will Linux defend itself against this kind of crap?Aug 11 02:55
DaemonFCjsut the same way Windows users do? Hack it out of the installer first?Aug 11 02:55
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DaemonFC`damn it to hellAug 11 02:57
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Balrog_DaemonFC: Linux doesn't have a defined kernel API so that helpsAug 11 02:57
*DaemonFC` is now known as DaemonFCAug 11 02:57
cubezzzpiracy is bad thoughAug 11 02:57
Balrog_but drm is worseAug 11 02:57
DaemonFCso in otherwords, just a new version of Linux can break their DRM driverAug 11 02:57
DaemonFCheheAug 11 02:57
Balrog_especially kernel level drmAug 11 02:57
DaemonFCso they can update the driver right?Aug 11 02:57
DaemonFCset up some kind of cron job to grab and install a new versionAug 11 02:58
Balrog_they'll probably stick to encrypted binariesAug 11 02:58
Balrog_DaemonFC: they'd either have to compile a driver for every version of the kernel that's out thereAug 11 02:58
Balrog_or do what nvidia does (provide a .o and some glue code)Aug 11 02:58
Balrog_or provide the sourceAug 11 02:59
DaemonFCso do you think that this is a primary reason there's few Windows games that get ported to Linux?Aug 11 02:59
DaemonFCthey can't subvert the kernel as easilyAug 11 02:59
cubezzzno, the primary reason is money :)Aug 11 02:59
cubezzzas in "We can't make enough"Aug 11 02:59
Balrog_I don't think so, because few Mac games subvert the kernelAug 11 02:59
DaemonFCwell, id software has proven that it takes minimal effort to port and make that port profitableAug 11 02:59
DaemonFCso I doubt that this is the only reason stopping themAug 11 02:59
DaemonFCcould Microsoft threaten to revoke their Windows DRM signing if they port the game?Aug 11 03:00
DaemonFCand maybe that's why they don't?Aug 11 03:00
cubezzzyou'd have to read their contracts, who knowsAug 11 03:00
DaemonFCand they don't make their contracts publicAug 11 03:01
Balrog_possible; Transgaming's Cider makes it easy for thatAug 11 03:01
DaemonFCso there's no way to prove thatAug 11 03:01
DaemonFCthey could make it an under the table dealAug 11 03:01
cubezzzI'm sure some small shops don't mind porting, I've seen stuf at lgpAug 11 03:01
DaemonFCnot even in the contract, just a general "understanding"Aug 11 03:01
Balrog_(I'm wondering if Cider rips off Wine, btw ... there's a binary floating around so it wouldn't hurt to check it)Aug 11 03:01
cubezzzthere's new stuff coming outAug 11 03:01
DaemonFCleaves their fingerprints off of itAug 11 03:01
DaemonFCif it goes to court and the contract is brought inAug 11 03:02
cubezzzexample: poptop wasn't interested it porting rt3Aug 11 03:02
Balrog_that would be an anticompetitive contract , or one intended to prevent competition by Windows lockinAug 11 03:03
DaemonFCyou know there are days when I would really love to be a fly on the wall in a Microsoft-EA Games meetingAug 11 03:03
DaemonFCyou know that?Aug 11 03:03
cubezzznow I think they're gone, so probably it will _never_ happenAug 11 03:03
DaemonFCMicrosoft was piushing Games For Windows as a reason to have VistaAug 11 03:03
DaemonFCso I'm sure that there was some kind of an "understanding" that those games would never be ported to LinuxAug 11 03:04
cubezzzthe thing is game companies die pretty quicklyAug 11 03:04
cubezzzso the window of opportunity is very shortAug 11 03:04
DaemonFCEA has been eating them all up, that's whyAug 11 03:04
DaemonFCEA is like the Microsoft of gamingAug 11 03:04
Balrog_EA is very committed to DRMAug 11 03:05
DaemonFCEA is like this out of control monster that used to put out good stuff and now it's all garbageAug 11 03:05
DaemonFCand they just buy anyone who makes a decent titleAug 11 03:05
DaemonFCto put them out of businessAug 11 03:05
Balrog_how can they do that?Aug 11 03:06
DaemonFCthat's what I fear has happened to id SoftwareAug 11 03:06
DaemonFCregarding the ZeniMax takeoverAug 11 03:06
DaemonFCDoom 4 will likely not be on Linux and will have SecuromAug 11 03:06
Balrog_Maxis is under EA now? right?Aug 11 03:06
DaemonFCZeniMax has done that to all their other gamesAug 11 03:06
DaemonFCyeahAug 11 03:06
DaemonFChas been for a whileAug 11 03:06
DaemonFCso is Westwood StudiosAug 11 03:06
DaemonFCand a number of othersAug 11 03:07
DaemonFCthe body count of good game developers killed by EA goes up every yearAug 11 03:07
Balrog_Microsoft has been doing the same :(Aug 11 03:07
cubezzza lot of things do tend to move towards monopolyAug 11 03:08
Balrog_what sucks is that they get the rights to old codeAug 11 03:08
DaemonFCso Windows and Microsoft certification is like a feudal systemAug 11 03:08
DaemonFCwhere DRM companies come pay their lord for their annual blessingAug 11 03:08
DaemonFCheheAug 11 03:08
cubezzzwell, no one is _forcing_ you to use windows :)Aug 11 03:09
cubezzzcoaxing yesAug 11 03:09
DaemonFCwell, the idea behind Windows and their "ecosystem" is to create so many things that only work well (or at all) on WindowsAug 11 03:09
DaemonFCthat's the point, they can't "force you" but they can be "awfully compelling"Aug 11 03:09
cubezzzcheck out :)Aug 11 03:09
Balrog_obviously; most systems are like thatAug 11 03:09
DaemonFCRead the 01 Jun 2009 postingAug 11 03:10
DaemonFCLinux DRM anyone?Aug 11 03:10
DaemonFCvideo game "rental"?Aug 11 03:11
DaemonFCno thank youAug 11 03:11
Balrog_Qt and GTK+ and SDL and similar libraries help, but they're often somewhat slower and don't work as well on other platforms.Aug 11 03:11
cubezzznone of the older games have that thoughAug 11 03:11
Balrog_DaemonFC: how to implement? usually it's by binaryAug 11 03:11
DaemonFCyeah, online activationAug 11 03:11
Balrog_signing / obfuscationAug 11 03:11
DaemonFCit phones home and sees if your license is still goodAug 11 03:11
DaemonFCuseless if that system can't connect to the netAug 11 03:11
Balrog_still can be circumventedAug 11 03:11
DaemonFCor if their server goes downAug 11 03:11
DaemonFCor they go out of businessAug 11 03:12
DaemonFCthey've apparently stated that if they go under, they'll issue patches to remove itAug 11 03:12
Balrog_ecxept for online only games / features which cost money for the serversAug 11 03:12
DaemonFCbut do you believe them?Aug 11 03:12
DaemonFCI don'tAug 11 03:12
Balrog_so ... time to take out the anti anti debug tools and the disassemblers ;)Aug 11 03:12
cubezzzyes actually I do believe them :)Aug 11 03:12
Balrog_cubezzz: unless they get acquiredAug 11 03:13
Balrog_or something like that happensAug 11 03:13
DaemonFCI won't buy their games because of the DRMAug 11 03:14
DaemonFCthey should know better than to try and shove DRM down the throats of Linux users as a business modelAug 11 03:14
DaemonFCthey'll lose more sales than they would to "piracy"Aug 11 03:14
DaemonFCjust out of spiteAug 11 03:14
cubezzzit's because of the piracy :-/Aug 11 03:15
cubezzzwell...Aug 11 03:15
Balrog_DaemonFC: what about regular serial number based registrationAug 11 03:15
twitterha, the trolls think they know me.  What amazing and self defeating venom 11 03:16
DaemonFCwhere you type in a serial number then it never bugs you again?Aug 11 03:16
DaemonFCI don't care if they do thatAug 11 03:16
Balrog_cubezzz: studies have shown that DRM doesn't reduce piracy by muchAug 11 03:16
Balrog_DaemonFC: yeah, thatAug 11 03:16
DaemonFCit does deeply offend customers who WOULD have bought itAug 11 03:16
DaemonFCso I don't know why they are doing itAug 11 03:16
twitterdigital restrictions... everyone loves those.... pthtft.Aug 11 03:17
Balrog_DRM or serial number reg?Aug 11 03:17
DaemonFCDRMAug 11 03:17
DaemonFCserial number is fine with meAug 11 03:17
DaemonFCthat's actually acceptable, they should require a serial number and jsut refuse to support you if your serial is invalidAug 11 03:17
DaemonFCand you have a question for themAug 11 03:17
DaemonFCthey used to do that, before DRMAug 11 03:17
cubezzzlgp didn't even have serial numbers for a long timeAug 11 03:18
DaemonFCI can see why they would be upset if someone got it off bittorrent, didn't pay for it, and THEN wanted support for freeAug 11 03:18
DaemonFCthat's a valid complaintAug 11 03:18
DaemonFCthey should just threaten to cut off support for that serial if they find it floating around on the internetAug 11 03:19
Balrog_DaemonFC: worse is if it's an online gameAug 11 03:19
DaemonFCthey can also spot phoney serials generated by keygens you know?Aug 11 03:19
Balrog_THEN they have to subsidize server costsAug 11 03:19
DaemonFClike the algorithm might spit out a serial with an R in it, but they never actually issued a serial with an R in it, or in that spotAug 11 03:20
cubezzzI'm sure a simple database could check valid serial'sAug 11 03:20
Balrog_DaemonFC: if they choose a good way to generate serials in the first placeAug 11 03:20
DaemonFCinstant fraud detectionAug 11 03:20
Balrog_probably but if they lose the database it's no good (that can happen)Aug 11 03:20
DaemonFCgames that have an online section and bann fraudulant serials from that section are OK tooAug 11 03:20
Balrog_better to have multiple algorithms that can be usesAug 11 03:20
Balrog_used *Aug 11 03:20
DaemonFCDRM that invades the kernel is never OKAug 11 03:21
Balrog_yeahAug 11 03:21
DaemonFCactivation for the offline part of the game is never OKAug 11 03:21
Balrog_what about anti debug (stuff like PT_DENY_ATTACH) and executable encryption?Aug 11 03:21
DaemonFCsay you had no interest in ever having an itnernet connctionAug 11 03:22
Balrog_(though those can be defeated ...)Aug 11 03:22
DaemonFCyou wanted a video game though, and it had to check in over the internet every so often?Aug 11 03:22
Balrog_I understandAug 11 03:22
DaemonFCthat kind of makes it a problem, right?Aug 11 03:22
DaemonFCor the company goes out of business, it's 15 years from now and you find your favorite old game in the attic and want to play it againAug 11 03:23
DaemonFCyou're screwedAug 11 03:23
Balrog_of course. most games that activate do so only once though. C&C will be the main exceptionAug 11 03:23
Balrog_if the game company goes out of business ..... there will be a crack or some method of circumventionAug 11 03:23
DaemonFCthat's my main complaints about DRM, if it infests the operating system, or keeps you from ever actually "owning" itAug 11 03:24
Balrog_that's how it has been so farAug 11 03:24
DaemonFCserial numbers by themselves are not DRMAug 11 03:24
Balrog_what about activation contained fully within the app binary?Aug 11 03:24
DaemonFChow would that work?Aug 11 03:24
DaemonFCcalling them on the phone to activate it is unacceptable tooAug 11 03:24
DaemonFCthat takes you back to what if they go underAug 11 03:25
Balrog_that's how a lot of activation works. But it still requires calling them / Internet accessAug 11 03:25
DaemonFCyou know, after 2012, it'll be interestingAug 11 03:25
Balrog_well, querying the hardware or looking in /proc ?Aug 11 03:25
cubezzzyeah, I don't like DRM eitherAug 11 03:25
Balrog_2012?Aug 11 03:25
DaemonFCto see if Microsoft will reactivate copies of VistaAug 11 03:25
DaemonFCsince it's out of supportAug 11 03:25
DaemonFC2014 for XPAug 11 03:25
Balrog_they should just release a sanctioned keygen thenAug 11 03:26
DaemonFCneed to reload the computer that jsut crashed? have to buy the new WindowsAug 11 03:26
DaemonFCI guarantee that's what will happenAug 11 03:26
Balrog_anti competitive practicesAug 11 03:26
DaemonFCwatch hundreds of thousands of customers up in arms because their Vista won't work and it's jsut because MS wants more salesAug 11 03:27
cubezzzhehAug 11 03:27
cubezzzI had this theory about companies who make virus scannersAug 11 03:27
DaemonFCthere's still at least tens of thousands that use Windows 98 evenAug 11 03:27
Balrog_and will probably drive people to Linux or Mac OS, depending on whether they want a new computer and how much they wish to spendAug 11 03:27
DaemonFCand they should expect it to work until the computer diesAug 11 03:27
cubezzz"Hey Mac, it's been a slow month, release more virii"Aug 11 03:27
DaemonFCthey bought Windows 98Aug 11 03:27
Balrog_cubezzz: ?Aug 11 03:27
DaemonFCsame with XP, Vista, or whateverAug 11 03:28
cubezzzBalrog_, that the virus scanner companies could actually make virusesAug 11 03:28
DaemonFCthat's been a long running theoryAug 11 03:28
Balrog_I wouldn't doubt thatAug 11 03:28
DaemonFCthere used to be "virus making toolkits" that would show up on BBS's and people guessed that antivirus companies put them thereAug 11 03:29
Balrog_hehAug 11 03:29
Balrog_though the Mac viruses so far have been LAMEAug 11 03:29
DaemonFCnobody is really trying that hard to attack Mac usersAug 11 03:29
DaemonFCvirus making is just like one of the old UNIX conceptsAug 11 03:30
DaemonFCif you can get 90% of the results with 10% of the effort, do thatAug 11 03:30
Balrog_yeahAug 11 03:30
DaemonFCif Mac had half the market, it would get half the attention of virus makersAug 11 03:31
cubezzzI am seeing more malware in general latelyAug 11 03:31
DaemonFCApple leaves critical vulnerabilities unpatched for months on endAug 11 03:31
DaemonFCif someone really wanted to, the Mac would be pwned, easilyAug 11 03:32
Balrog_though it's harder to write good Mac virusesAug 11 03:32
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Balrog_then Apple will start releasing patches right away. I can see it happeningAug 11 03:32
Balrog_"Security Update 2009-XX is out"Aug 11 03:32
DaemonFCthen you're right up there with "Patch Tuesday" :PAug 11 03:35
Balrog_almostAug 11 03:35
DaemonFCbelieve me, part of me wishes some terribly destructive Mac virus would hitAug 11 03:35
Balrog_though keeping stuff up to date in general helpsAug 11 03:35
DaemonFCjust to see what Apple would say thenAug 11 03:36
Balrog_I could probably write one but I don't write virusesAug 11 03:36
cubezzzthey'd also have to update their Mac Vs PC ads :)Aug 11 03:36
Balrog_could == am able toAug 11 03:36
DaemonFCthe Windows virus thing is fairly overblown though, if you're carefulAug 11 03:36
DaemonFCI've ran into a couple, only one did any real damageAug 11 03:36
cubezzzI had some customers get hit with Perfect DefenderAug 11 03:37
DaemonFCthat's over nearly two decadesAug 11 03:37
cubezzzwasn't _too_ badAug 11 03:37
DaemonFCI got hit with Chernobyl and Download.JectAug 11 03:37
DaemonFCDownload.Ject virus was the one that caught me off guardAug 11 03:38
DaemonFCI was browsing with IE 6 cause I just got XP (then on SP1) all set up and hadn't gotten another browser set up yetAug 11 03:38
DaemonFCand all of a sudden windows start flying open and something installed itselfAug 11 03:39
DaemonFCso I formatted and install XP again :PAug 11 03:39
cubezzzwell, I suppose it would be safer to not connect to the net until you're SP is loadedAug 11 03:39
DaemonFCthat one was really my faultAug 11 03:39
cubezzzOne customer I have has a win95 box, and we ended up just not connecting it to the net at allAug 11 03:40
DaemonFCas for TuxGames, it's cheaper to just buy it from the publisherAug 11 03:41
DaemonFCTuxGames seems to tack on about $10-15 per titleAug 11 03:41
DaemonFCjust for carrying itAug 11 03:41
Balrog_be careful with Chernobyl ... it was designed to damage the hard drive AND the biosAug 11 03:41
cubezzzsometimes lgp is the publisher thoughAug 11 03:41
DaemonFCyeah, that was when I was using Windows 98Aug 11 03:41
DaemonFCand isntalling game demos off a CD I got from EBAug 11 03:41
DaemonFCWindows 7 is getting kind of temperamental when you go to install games meant for 98 or XPAug 11 03:42
DaemonFCnext version of Windows after 7 might not even run them at allAug 11 03:42
DaemonFCWindows 95-era games, some work, some don'tAug 11 03:43
DaemonFCno DOS or Win16 games without emulationAug 11 03:43
DaemonFCWindows is starting to lose a lot of backwards compatibility without pointing it to a compatibility shim that pretends it is XP or VistaAug 11 03:45
DaemonFCand even that may not fully workAug 11 03:45
DaemonFCmy guess is that they've removed the functionality from Windows itself and moved it to a seperae environment where those features are still supportedAug 11 03:46
DaemonFCI've never had to use shims like this beforeAug 11 03:46
cubezzzI just don't use windows for personal useAug 11 03:47
cubezzzI've had enough :)Aug 11 03:47
Balrog_I don't use windows at all, pretty muchAug 11 03:47
DaemonFCstripping away the deprecated crap on Windows is a risky thing to doAug 11 03:48
DaemonFCbecause lots of programs depend on it to runAug 11 03:48
DaemonFCso Windows gets bigger and buggier, or you have to move that functionality to an "XP-like personality"Aug 11 03:48
Balrog_apple did it with OS XAug 11 03:48
Balrog_broke all the old apps in the processAug 11 03:48
DaemonFCyeah, but thats AppleAug 11 03:49
cubezzzwell, that would encourage new versions of software and more $$$ potentiallyAug 11 03:49
DaemonFCits users are made of money anywayAug 11 03:49
DaemonFCand I doubt they have a software collection spanning 20 yearsAug 11 03:49
DaemonFCbusinesses don't use it eitherAug 11 03:49
Balrog_they had no other choice; the OS was still based on MC68K assembly code in some placesAug 11 03:49
DaemonFCso Windows is stuck with backwards compatibility rubbish that Mac can easily break away fromAug 11 03:49
cubezzzthere's a lot of built-in obsolescence in thingsAug 11 03:49
Balrog_apple just implemented a sort of virtualization from 2000 to 2006Aug 11 03:50
DaemonFCthey've switched architectures 3 times nowAug 11 03:50
DaemonFCresetting what you can run on your Mac each timeAug 11 03:50
DaemonFCstarting you over from scratchAug 11 03:50
Balrog_then dropped it when x86 came alongAug 11 03:50
DaemonFCI'd be pissedAug 11 03:50
Balrog_not true; switching architectures had little impactAug 11 03:51
Balrog_moving from OS 9 to OS X ... a lot of impactAug 11 03:51
cubezzzcomputer software just doesn't live very longAug 11 03:51
DaemonFC"We're sorry, the Mac Classic environment is no longer supported, sucks to be you, try buying a newer version fo the program"Aug 11 03:51
DaemonFC:PAug 11 03:51
cubezzzeither the storage medium decays or new hardware comes outAug 11 03:52
DaemonFCwell, a lot of old games depend on DirectPlay for their joystick inputAug 11 03:52
Balrog_yeah, after 6 years of supportAug 11 03:52
DaemonFCWindows hasn't supported that since Vista came outAug 11 03:52
Balrog_brbAug 11 03:52
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cubezzzjust port to penguinplay :)Aug 11 03:53
DaemonFCI think Microsoft's policy is to try to support programs designed for up to two versions backAug 11 03:53
DaemonFCso they want to make sure XP apps still runAug 11 03:53
DaemonFCbut they don't care about 98 and 2000Aug 11 03:53
DaemonFCthey may or may notAug 11 03:53
DaemonFCthat applies to Windows 7 anywayAug 11 03:54
DaemonFCthat's still nearly 10 years worth of softwareAug 11 03:54
DaemonFCApple usually doesn't even do thatAug 11 03:54
DaemonFChell, I've seen people upgrade, like from Tiger to Leopard and have to BUY patches to update their softwareAug 11 03:55
DaemonFCit really is an incredible scamAug 11 03:55
cubezzzwell, I figure the #boycotnovell crowd to be mostly Linux peopleAug 11 03:55
cubezzzI could be wrong :)Aug 11 03:55
DaemonFCwell, since we're talking backwards compatibilityAug 11 03:56
DaemonFCtry running Loki installers on a modern Linux distroAug 11 03:56
DaemonFClet me know how that goesAug 11 03:56
cubezzzI run rt2 on fedora 10Aug 11 03:56
cubezzzit works, I had to modify it thoughAug 11 03:56
DaemonFCI tried installing Heavy Metal: Fakk2's Linux installer, and it bombed outAug 11 03:56
DaemonFCI ended up putting it in WineAug 11 03:57
cubezzzI usually have one older box around which helpsAug 11 03:57
DaemonFCI have a feeling that's why Linux performs well and isn't real error proneAug 11 03:57
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DaemonFCthey have no guaranteed interfaces and strip old code out without regard to what breaksAug 11 03:57
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cubezzzthere's a couple of Loki guys that have posted how to get some games to workAug 11 03:58
cubezzzyou just have to know a dev or twoAug 11 03:58
DaemonFCI think a large part of Linux's problem is precisely thatAug 11 03:59
DaemonFCtheir uncaring attitude about whether or not they break commercial softwareAug 11 03:59
cubezzzprobably true in some casesAug 11 03:59
DaemonFCthey kind of have this mindset that if you can't just recompile it right there, it's not worth savingAug 11 03:59
DaemonFCthat works well for a small niche operating system in a small niche marketAug 11 04:00
cubezzzsometimes even FOSS stuff gets orphanedAug 11 04:00
DaemonFCbut it's not gonna win them points when they try to take on commercial platforms who host commercial software, and then say "Please port this to Linux"Aug 11 04:00
cubezzzbut if you really want to improve it you canAug 11 04:00
DaemonFCevery time I ask someone to port something ot to fix bugs, that's the answer I getAug 11 04:01
cubezzz;-)Aug 11 04:01
DaemonFCsome variation of "Linux moves too fast to support"Aug 11 04:01
Balrog_just use stable APIs :)Aug 11 04:02
Balrog_they do exist,Aug 11 04:02
DaemonFCit's a copout but Linux developers give it to them on a platterAug 11 04:02
Balrog_ but not in the kernelAug 11 04:02
Balrog_trueAug 11 04:02
DaemonFCthe attitude of just blowing off all proprietary software developers is hurting Linux, because not every kind of software thrives in an open source only systemAug 11 04:03
DaemonFCthere's not enough interest or profit potential to make it worth doingAug 11 04:03
DaemonFCor people with know how who will contributAug 11 04:04
DaemonFCit's like what would happen if Bethesda ported Oblivion to Linux? lots of people have asked thatAug 11 04:04
DaemonFCfirst of all, could a game that complicated be done for free, by an open source project?Aug 11 04:05
DaemonFCsecond of all, since we know it can't, should Bethesda have to patch the game every 6 months to keep it compatible?Aug 11 04:05
Balrog_can't they make the engineAug 11 04:05
Balrog_GPL and the data non free?Aug 11 04:05
DaemonFCthere is no good way to do this because they want to make money, there isn't enough open source talent to create anything like this independently, and Linux moves to fast to be worth supporting for a 1% spike in salesAug 11 04:06
_Hicham_so better go with WindowsAug 11 04:07
DaemonFCthey could open source the engine, but then what you get is the content being bittorrented seperately, for free, by tightwadsAug 11 04:07
_Hicham_what a weak argumentAug 11 04:07
_Hicham_DaemonFCish argument, as alwaysAug 11 04:07
DaemonFCit's like asking them to put $10 towards every $1 they get in returnAug 11 04:07
DaemonFCthat's just not how a business worksAug 11 04:07
DaemonFCwell, a profitable one that wants to make more products laterAug 11 04:08
DaemonFCso by making the model unsustainable, everyone losesAug 11 04:08
DaemonFCthey can't make their product, you can't use their productAug 11 04:08
DaemonFCand if they try, then you buy it, and 9 other people get on bittorrent and go "Look what I got for free! Nyaaaah Nyaaah!"Aug 11 04:09
DaemonFCand the developer is never heard from againAug 11 04:09
DaemonFC(Loki)Aug 11 04:09
DaemonFCthat really pissed me off btwAug 11 04:10
DaemonFCit's cheapass people like that that have propped Cedega upAug 11 04:10
DaemonFCow you not only have to buy the Windows game, you have to pay a Cedega subscription to run it properlyAug 11 04:11
DaemonFCand Cedega, over the course of a year, costs almost as much as Windows, which runs the game nativelyAug 11 04:11
DaemonFCCedega's marketing is kind of like going to a used car lotAug 11 04:12
DaemonFCthey always promise more than they can deliver, and it costs you more money than it looked like at the timeAug 11 04:13
Balrog_wine often worksAug 11 04:13
DaemonFCbringing me back to DRMAug 11 04:13
DaemonFCCedega doesn't crash when it hits SecuromAug 11 04:13
DaemonFCWine doesAug 11 04:13
DaemonFCDRM and Linux development methodology creates the circular problem of incompatibility which Cedega is milking you to be rid ofAug 11 04:14
DaemonFCalso if you're buying the Windows version of the game, then they'll jsut keep making just the Windows version of the gameAug 11 04:15
DaemonFCit's one big problem for several reasons that feeds itselfAug 11 04:15
DaemonFCI kind of consider it a cold fusion reactor of incompatibilityAug 11 04:16
Balrog_I don't play games to begin withAug 11 04:17
DaemonFCMicrosoft is feeding off that marketAug 11 04:18
DaemonFCgorging themselves on it to be more preciseAug 11 04:18
Balrog_they have been since the mid 90sAug 11 04:18
DaemonFCbecause no credible contenders are really out there besides Sony (shvers)Aug 11 04:18
DaemonFCwell, the engines that do get open sourced are like dead husks that are commercially infeasable at that pointAug 11 04:20
_Hicham_Finally MiniCopier is going to enter FedoraAug 11 04:20
DaemonFClike Quake III EngineAug 11 04:20
DaemonFCid Software hasn't typically made money off the games so much as licensing their engines anywayAug 11 04:21
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DaemonFCso fat chance of the engine being open source when it's viewed as a valuable commodityAug 11 04:21
Balrog_but a GPLed engine has its limitations (for commercial usage)Aug 11 04:23
DaemonFCI suppose if the "open source engine + commercialized content for it" idea was profitable, someone would have come along selling "content" packs for the Nexuiz engineAug 11 04:24
DaemonFCor somethingAug 11 04:24
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Balrog_nightAug 11 04:27
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fewaut oh, Daemon is backAug 11 04:36
fewaAnd i noticed also plugging Windows and dissing FOSSAug 11 04:36
thenixedreport@fewa: He uses Windows the same reason I do.Aug 11 04:38
thenixedreportWe both use it from time to time so we can say why it sucks.Aug 11 04:38
DaemonFC`dammitAug 11 04:38
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DaemonFCthenixedreport: pure frustration of other binary-only software dying under WineAug 11 04:39
DaemonFCis the main reasonAug 11 04:39
DaemonFCThere's a lot of programs out there that so heavily depend on so many functions of the Windows API that they may never run right on WineAug 11 04:40
DaemonFCWinamp is my favorite exampleAug 11 04:40
DaemonFCthe rest see Wine as a debugger and assume you're trying to evade the copy protection, and commit suicideAug 11 04:41
DaemonFCI subscribed to Cedega for a while, cancelled almsot immediatelyAug 11 04:42
DaemonFCI just kind of get rubbed the wrong way by Wine, I think the kind of stuff I tend to run in it tends to be way too much for itAug 11 04:44
thenixedreportThat's why vendors who do the porting should be supported.Aug 11 04:45
thenixedreport2DBoy for example.Aug 11 04:45
thenixedreportAnd Frictional Games too.Aug 11 04:45
DaemonFCWinamp has been made so heavily dependent on Windows and AOL is doing so bad these days that it's mainly only getting bugfixes and minor new featuresAug 11 04:45
DaemonFCI don't think they could even rewrite enough of it to have cross platform support if they wanted toAug 11 04:46
DaemonFCthey also gave that reason as to why it won't be a Win64 program either :PAug 11 04:46
thenixedreportThey had an alpha version for Linux-based operating systems at one point.Aug 11 04:46
DaemonFCthey gave that up because the plugins were not cooperatingAug 11 04:46
DaemonFCand they didn't want to have to rewrite everythingAug 11 04:47
DaemonFCit's one of the few things that's actually making AOL any money and they can't even devote enough resources to do anything with it beyind maintaineneceAug 11 04:48
DaemonFCkind of sadAug 11 04:48
DaemonFCanyhow, Amarok is the only thing that even comes closeAug 11 04:49
DaemonFCand that still has some rough edges from the KDE 4 migrationAug 11 04:49
DaemonFCit's getting betterAug 11 04:49
DaemonFCbatch transcoding would be a nice addition to Amarok too using various standalone encodersAug 11 04:50
fewathenixedreport, IAug 11 04:51
fewathenixedreport, IAug 11 04:51
fewam not sure your right about thatAug 11 04:51
fewaerr, sryAug 11 04:52
thenixedreportI have run WIndows 7.Aug 11 04:59
thenixedreportIt has potential, but I can also tell everyone why it blows.Aug 11 04:59
cubezzzwhy?Aug 11 04:59
thenixedreportThere are too many show stoppers at the moment.Aug 11 04:59
thenixedreport1.) Double clicking a folder should not open a new window.Aug 11 05:00
thenixedreportIt defeats the purpose of the forward and back buttons in the file manager.Aug 11 05:00
thenixedreport2.) Chkdsk.Aug 11 05:00
thenixedreportI don't care what anybody else says.Aug 11 05:00
thenixedreportScanning a hard disk drive for errors should not choke out all your ram in the first place.Aug 11 05:00
thenixedreport3.) Though it does perform better, there are hardly any new features that would justify the hefty upgrade price.Aug 11 05:01
thenixedreport4.) Too many editions still.Aug 11 05:01
thenixedreportJust have a home and pro edition and be done with it already.Aug 11 05:01
thenixedreport5.) UAC still blows security-wise.Aug 11 05:02
cubezzz...and it's product of evil (tm) microsoftAug 11 05:02
cubezzzwell, I wasn't about it use it :)Aug 11 05:02
thenixedreportEspecially since it can automatically elevate priveleges without asking the user if they're sure.Aug 11 05:02
thenixedreportWhich defeats the purpose of UAC.Aug 11 05:02
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thenixedreportAnd again, the price tag is still way too high.Aug 11 05:03
cubezzzdare I ask how much?Aug 11 05:03
thenixedreportAll the so called "cool stuff" will be made available for Vista anyway.Aug 11 05:04
thenixedreportHow much should be charged or how much is too much?Aug 11 05:04
cubezzzhow much is too muchAug 11 05:04
thenixedreportIf you have to pay over $100 just for a full copy, you're paying too much.Aug 11 05:04
thenixedreportA full copy of Windows is not worth $100, let alone $400.Aug 11 05:04
thenixedreportNever has been and never will be, even with inflation taken into account.Aug 11 05:05
cubezzzI stopped using microsoft stuff in the windows 2000 eraAug 11 05:06
cubezzznever really liked windows, since version 2.0 and my opinion hasn't changedAug 11 05:07
cubezzzif Commodore survived today I would probably still be using AmigaDOSAug 11 05:09
twitterYou could not pay me $100 to use windows.Aug 11 05:12
twitterst homeAug 11 05:13
twitterat homeAug 11 05:13
twitter:PAug 11 05:13
DaemonFCI'm trying to draw up a proposal for a minimum wage ordnance for the city that would exempt small employersAug 11 05:13
DaemonFCI'm going to try to get it published in the town newspaperAug 11 05:13
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cubezzzI use Linux at work too, just not exclusivelyAug 11 05:13
twitter***twitter erases the last hour of DaemonFC clutter.  Ignores latest incarnation.Aug 11 05:15
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*DaemonFC wishes the Twitter interruption would extend itself hereAug 11 05:17
DaemonFC;)Aug 11 05:17
DaemonFC 11 05:18
DaemonFCRepublicans extend their anti-Obama attacks through their Canadian counterpartsAug 11 05:18
DaemonFCapparentlyAug 11 05:18
DaemonFCCanadian hyposcrisyAug 11 05:21
DaemonFCdemanding we end "Buy American" protectionism while they have a "Buy Canadian" government policy in placeAug 11 05:21
DaemonFC*hypocrisyAug 11 05:21
DaemonFCapparently we're also pissing off the EUAug 11 05:22
DaemonFCthey can stay pissedAug 11 05:22
cubezzzwell everyone should support the manufacturers of their own country firstAug 11 05:23
DaemonFCwe already turned off the illegal immigration magnet by letting foreign interests destroy our job marketAug 11 05:23
DaemonFC:DAug 11 05:23
DaemonFCmore mexicans are going back to Mexico than are coming here nowAug 11 05:24
cubezzzand if you can't find something, then start looking at other countriesAug 11 05:24
DaemonFCI see Canada and Mexico complaining that we aren't giving them more bloodAug 11 05:24
DaemonFCwhen they've already bled us dryAug 11 05:24
DaemonFCI really wish they'd impeach Stephen HarperAug 11 05:26
DaemonFCthey tried and he suspended Parliament to prevent thatAug 11 05:26
cubezzzwhat did he do?Aug 11 05:26
DaemonFChe'd about as politically popular as herpesAug 11 05:26
DaemonFChe's like the Canadian George W. BushAug 11 05:26
DaemonFCsame policies only a lot less potentAug 11 05:26
DaemonFChe's so bad that Canada's other three parties united to try to get rid of himAug 11 05:28
DaemonFCand these guys seldom agree in unison on anything elseAug 11 05:28
cubezzzthat is true :)Aug 11 05:29
DaemonFCCanada's government structure is even more messed up than oursAug 11 05:29
DaemonFCat least the US President can't suspend Congress to avoid an impeachment voteAug 11 05:29
DaemonFCwho the hell decided that was a good idea to allow in Canada?Aug 11 05:30
DaemonFCthere are governments that are less accountable to their people than the United States, we share the North American continent with two shining examplesAug 11 05:31
DaemonFCand yet we're the corrupt onesAug 11 05:31
DaemonFCsureAug 11 05:31
cubezzzit wasn't an impeachment vote, it was a confidence voteAug 11 05:31
DaemonFCsame result, right?Aug 11 05:31
DaemonFChe gets removed from officeAug 11 05:31
cubezzzI supposeAug 11 05:31
DaemonFCOK, allowing the Canadian Prime Minister to suspend Parliament to avoid a no confidence vote makes no sense at all?Aug 11 05:32
DaemonFC:DAug 11 05:32
DaemonFCbetter?Aug 11 05:32
DaemonFCit's still the same thing as an "impeachment" they just call it a no confidence voteAug 11 05:32
cubezzzUntil that happened, I had no idea it was possibleAug 11 05:33
DaemonFCapparently it's notAug 11 05:33
DaemonFC:PAug 11 05:33
cubezzzHarper must have come to some compromiseAug 11 05:33
DaemonFCWhat is the process there for? To make people feel better? They can't use it, so it must beAug 11 05:33
DaemonFCAustralia and Canada were ripping on George Bush with John Howard and Stephen Harper running their countries?Aug 11 05:34
DaemonFCthat kind of discredits them, I thinkAug 11 05:34
DaemonFCthen to make things even funnier, John Howard said that Americans should vote for John McCain (this was before the election)Aug 11 05:35
DaemonFCthis kind of crap makes me think there's an international "Republican" partyAug 11 05:36
DaemonFCin the UK it's called the British National PartyAug 11 05:36
cubezzzwell I voted for the Greens, they didn't get any seats thoughAug 11 05:36
DaemonFCI'm considering getting into the local political systemAug 11 05:37
cubezzzI assume the STates has a green party?Aug 11 05:37
DaemonFCI'm not sure if I want to touch that or to just leave townAug 11 05:37
DaemonFCyeah, no national or state level seatsAug 11 05:38
DaemonFCthey have a few county and city level officesAug 11 05:38
DaemonFCno broad appealAug 11 05:38
DaemonFCthe Democrats integrate some of the Green Party platform thoughAug 11 05:38
DaemonFCthe reason the Democrats are less effective than the Republicans, even with a super majority is because there are lots of kinds of Democrats, and only one kind of RepublicanAug 11 05:39
DaemonFCthe Democrats are basically three parties in one labor, liberals, and libertariansAug 11 05:39
DaemonFCthe Republicans are really two, evangelical Christians and big businessAug 11 05:40
DaemonFCthey really are not diverseAug 11 05:40
cubezzzI've heard the term "blue dog democrat" recentlyAug 11 05:40
cubezzznot sure what it means :)Aug 11 05:40
DaemonFCthe blue dog democrats tend to be fiiscal conservatives and socially liberalAug 11 05:40
DaemonFCit's preferable to a Republican, but what isn't?Aug 11 05:40
DaemonFCthey're still fighting healthcare reformAug 11 05:41
DaemonFCso I don't really like themAug 11 05:41
DaemonFCwell, most of them are, it's complicatedAug 11 05:41
DaemonFCeach state has two senators that are elected directly by the people of that state, Indiana is one of a handful that has one Republican and one DemocratAug 11 05:42
DaemonFCEvan Bayh is the Democrat, and he's part of that Blue Dog groupAug 11 05:42
DaemonFCbut he's not an asshole, so I always vote for himAug 11 05:42
DaemonFC:)Aug 11 05:42
DaemonFChe was our governor for 8 years, and he's been our junior senator for the last 11Aug 11 05:43
DaemonFCextremely popularAug 11 05:43
DaemonFCthere was some talk of him being Obama's Vice presidential pick, it surprised me when he wasn'tAug 11 05:43
DaemonFCwould have been a good oneAug 11 05:43
DaemonFCI think what stopped that was that we have a Republican governor that would have chosen his replacementAug 11 05:44
fewacubezzz, the USAug 11 05:44
fewa's electoral system is very harsh to other partiesAug 11 05:44
DaemonFCyes, it's difficult for other parties to competeAug 11 05:45
fewaand it was largely designed by the two aprties to their own interestsAug 11 05:45
DaemonFCyou have to get on the ballot in every state to pose them any threat for the presidencyAug 11 05:45
DaemonFCand most third parties are only on the ballot in 30-40 statesAug 11 05:45
fewaI like parliamentary system betterAug 11 05:45
cubezzzNader didn't do too bad, I seem to rememberAug 11 05:46
fewaand the parties oust other canidates from the "dabates"Aug 11 05:46
cubezzzhe got a lot of coverageAug 11 05:46
DaemonFC50 states, more or less just a simple majority wins you that state's electoral votesAug 11 05:46
fewacubezzz, they forcibly removed him from the "debate" to which he had a valid ticketAug 11 05:46
DaemonFCelectoral votes are equal to the number of representatives for that state, plus their 2 senatorsAug 11 05:46
fewaDaemonFC, not is all the statesAug 11 05:46
DaemonFCyeah, some split them by regionAug 11 05:46
DaemonFCthat quirk gave Obama one vote from Nebraska where McCain got the other 4Aug 11 05:47
fewasome states, such as maine, are representative. Also there is a popular vote amendmentAug 11 05:47
DaemonFCit never happens though, so that was a flukeAug 11 05:47
fewathat if a electoral majority of states pass will convert presidential elections to popular voteAug 11 05:47
DaemonFCyeah, the National Popular Vote CompactAug 11 05:47
DaemonFCthat needs to pass, it really doesAug 11 05:48
DaemonFCit would get rid of a lot of the unfairness in our current systemAug 11 05:48
fewamy state has joined itAug 11 05:48
fewaGet your state to do soAug 11 05:48
DaemonFCit was introduced last yearAug 11 05:49
DaemonFCdied in committeeAug 11 05:49
DaemonFCit's Indiana, heh, you'll have better luck convincing the Texans to pass itAug 11 05:49
DaemonFCthere they at least have some areas with a libertarian slantAug 11 05:50
fewaTexas is importantAug 11 05:51
DaemonFClooks like a lot of smaller states are passing itAug 11 05:51
fewaalso they would get better representation with itAug 11 05:51
DaemonFCso would CaliforniaAug 11 05:51
fewasmall state would loose representationAug 11 05:51
DaemonFCI worked out the math onceAug 11 05:51
fewaits obvious without needing mathAug 11 05:51
DaemonFCmy vote is worth 6 votes made by California residentsAug 11 05:51
DaemonFCfor president anywayAug 11 05:51
DaemonFCthat's not fairAug 11 05:52
DaemonFCmy vote essentially deprives 5 other people of theirsAug 11 05:52
DaemonFCjust because I'm in a smaller stateAug 11 05:52
DaemonFCtechnically that means Indiana is over-represented and my vote is 6 times as potent as it should be, any system where that can happen needs to be trashedAug 11 05:53
DaemonFCit also means that a vote in Wisconsin is worth 12 California votersAug 11 05:53
DaemonFCor two Indiana votersAug 11 05:53
fewaDaemonFC, only one vote mattersAug 11 05:54
DaemonFCnot trueAug 11 05:54
fewaDaemonFC, that one vote that changes the majorityAug 11 05:54
DaemonFCnumber of electoral votes divided by populationAug 11 05:54
DaemonFCis what mattersAug 11 05:54
fewaso if your state is not evenly balanced your vote doesn't matter muchAug 11 05:54
DaemonFCright, even though California and Texas have a lot of votes, they still don't have the weight they deserveAug 11 05:55
DaemonFCgiven how many people live thereAug 11 05:55
DaemonFCwell, I wouldn't necessarily say thatAug 11 05:55
DaemonFCIndiana has gone to Republican presidential candidates since 1968Aug 11 05:56
DaemonFCand voted for Obama last yearAug 11 05:56
DaemonFCif the Democrats here gave up, the Republicans would have taken Indiana again last yearAug 11 05:56
DaemonFCI don't really care how badly outnumbered I think I am, I always at least drive down to the courthouse and voteAug 11 05:57
DaemonFCit's the only thing that all these taxes are really buying meAug 11 05:57
fewaDaemonFC, you are off on the 6x statAug 11 05:59
fewa 11 05:59
fewasee pop per electoral voteAug 11 05:59
DaemonFCI know how many we haveAug 11 05:59
DaemonFCwe deserve lessAug 11 05:59
fewawyoming is 3.8X california repAug 11 06:00
fewaand thats the biggest differenceAug 11 06:00
DaemonFCIndiana has 11 votes for 6.5 million people, California has 55 votes for almsot 37 million peopleAug 11 06:00
fewayeah you mathed the wrong wayAug 11 06:00
fewaaka DaemonFC is wrongAug 11 06:00
DaemonFCOK, I was offAug 11 06:01
DaemonFCthey have 5 times the votes but  almost 6 times the populationAug 11 06:01
fewastill alot of differenceAug 11 06:01
DaemonFCstill unfairAug 11 06:01
DaemonFCjust not massively unfairAug 11 06:01
fewa3.8X for wyomingAug 11 06:01
fewalets get the Standard deviation :PAug 11 06:02
fewaor compare to voting turnoutAug 11 06:02
DaemonFCWyoming has 3 votes for 523,000 peopleAug 11 06:02
fewathats a bigger differenceAug 11 06:02
DaemonFCyikesAug 11 06:02
fewastates with bigger turnout will suddenly have more representationAug 11 06:02
fewaand there will suddenly be more of an incentive to increase turnoutsAug 11 06:03
fewathats probably a good thingsAug 11 06:03
fewa*good thingAug 11 06:03
DaemonFCso their population is like 1/11th of ours (just an estimation), but they get about 1/4th as many votesAug 11 06:03
DaemonFCweird system, very weird systemAug 11 06:03
fewaas that was the very reason womans sufferage too so long in the USAug 11 06:03
fewaIts because its a federationAug 11 06:03
fewaA similarly set up government is SwitzerlandAug 11 06:04
DaemonFCit also means you could only win 11 states out of 50Aug 11 06:04
DaemonFCand still be the presidentAug 11 06:04
DaemonFCthat's messed upAug 11 06:04
fewaalthough there is a huge differnce between US and Switzerland on democratic participationAug 11 06:04
DaemonFCif you won the 11 with the most votes, that gives you 271Aug 11 06:04
DaemonFCyou only need 270Aug 11 06:05
fewamuch less democratic deficietAug 11 06:05
DaemonFCtechnically you only need 269 to tie and the decision to be sent to the House of RepresentativesAug 11 06:05
fewa"Through referendums, citizens may challenge any law voted by federal parliament and through initiatives introduce amendments to the federal constitution, making Switzerland the closest state in the world to a direct democracy."Aug 11 06:05
DaemonFCat which point, the Democrat would likely winAug 11 06:05
fewaIf we had that we would already have single-payer health care, we would never had had war with Iraq, etc, etcAug 11 06:06
DaemonFCmmhmAug 11 06:06
fewaDaemonFC, political parties are structured around constituents, so the politics would just changeAug 11 06:06
DaemonFCthat's why we don't have itAug 11 06:06
DaemonFCconstituents are manipulatedAug 11 06:07
DaemonFCby the Fox Noise ChannelAug 11 06:07
fewaPopular opinion, a much more sane barometre would be able to prevailAug 11 06:07
DaemonFCand the Rush LimbaughsAug 11 06:07
fewait would do much to abolish the democratic deficietAug 11 06:07
fewaIf we had another 60s it would be pushed throughAug 11 06:07
DaemonFCthat's why there's no draftAug 11 06:07
fewajust like 18 year old voting was pushed through under strong political pressureAug 11 06:07
DaemonFCthe Republicans don't want motivated young votersAug 11 06:08
fewaeven made a constitutional amendmentAug 11 06:08
DaemonFCthe Republicans didn't draft for Iraq because then young voters would get their asses up, put down the XBOX for 5 minutesAug 11 06:08
DaemonFCand get rid of the bastardsAug 11 06:08
DaemonFCall of themAug 11 06:08
DaemonFClast year wouldn't have jsut been a major setback for the Republicans, it would have been a bloodbathAug 11 06:10
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DaemonFC` 11 06:13
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DaemonFChmmm, Microsoft sent me a surveyAug 11 06:14
fewado you get a laptop if you answer it?Aug 11 06:15
fewa:PAug 11 06:16
cubezzzI'd do a microsoft survey for a laptop :)Aug 11 06:16
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DaemonFC10. What do you like or dislike about Microsoft Security Essentials?Aug 11 06:17
DaemonFC"I would like to see it use its own update system. I have my Windows updates set to notify but not automatically install, and find the daily alerts somewhat annoying. Clarification is needed on what the "default action" for each class of threat does."Aug 11 06:18
DaemonFChehAug 11 06:18
DaemonFCI fill them outAug 11 06:19
DaemonFCthis is actually the third survey for MSEAug 11 06:20
DaemonFC,2933,538441,00.htmlAug 11 06:22
DaemonFC"Now Hiring: Everywhere You Didn't Want to Work"Aug 11 06:22
DaemonFChehAug 11 06:22
DaemonFC"People who have been out of work for months are lining up for jobs at places they once considered unthinkable: slaughterhouses, sewage plants, prisons."Aug 11 06:23
DaemonFCthats why the Mexicans are fleeingAug 11 06:24
DaemonFCthe depression has forced everyone down a notchAug 11 06:24
DaemonFCand that means nothing left for themAug 11 06:25
cubezzzwhat about working for the "Big M"?Aug 11 06:25
cubezzzI think the sewer guys get paid pretty decent actuallyAug 11 06:26
DaemonFClike I said, we turned off the magnet by letting foreign interests and illegal aliens take everything we hadAug 11 06:27
DaemonFCit's so bad now that we're taking jobs that only illegal aliens would have even done just a few years agoAug 11 06:27
cubezzz2009 has been pretty decent for meAug 11 06:28
cubezzzI can't really complainAug 11 06:28
DaemonFCNAFTA has hurt almost every average personAug 11 06:28
DaemonFCin the US, Mexico, and to a lesser extent, CanadaAug 11 06:28
DaemonFCand enriched a few CEO types and rapacious investorsAug 11 06:28
cubezzz2008 was kind of crappy thoughAug 11 06:29
DaemonFCwe should repeal it and withdraw from the WTO immediately, but we won't because our government is bought and paid for by the crooksAug 11 06:29
DaemonFCif I was running things, we'd withdraw from NAFTA, the WTO, WIPO, the United Nations, and we'd shut down the Federal ReserveAug 11 06:30
DaemonFCthis "global economy" is a crock and hasn't done anything but bleed us to give our money to a bunch of ingratiated third world complainers and super wealthy CEOsAug 11 06:30
DaemonFCno matter how much money or foreign aide we dump on say, African governments and poverty stricken people, it's always "Death to America!!!!" fuck them, if they're going to be like that, we should just worry about our own problemsAug 11 06:32
DaemonFCwe can't feed our own homeless or give jobs to our own poor, what the hell do we owe to others?Aug 11 06:32
DaemonFCwe're not the March of DimesAug 11 06:33
DaemonFCwe're broke, and yet these globalization types still want more moeny to "fight AIDS in Africa", like that's ever going awayAug 11 06:34
DaemonFCwhen half the governments over there deny it even existsAug 11 06:35
DaemonFCcubezzz: It's going to be India, India is going to be the 21st century superpowerAug 11 06:36
DaemonFCnot even China can keep up with themAug 11 06:36
DaemonFC 11 06:38
DaemonFClmaoAug 11 06:38
DaemonFChmmm, Winamp now supports DRM'd Windows Media filesAug 11 06:47
DaemonFC* Fixed: [in_wm] Embedded IE browser for DRM license acquisitionAug 11 06:48
DaemonFCiccckAug 11 06:48
DaemonFCI guess the art of sockpuppetry is not only mastered by twitterAug 11 06:50
DaemonFCevery news article about Obama linked to by Google News has scores of anti-Obama postsAug 11 06:50
schestowitz They overpaid and they are EEEing a competitorAug 11 07:12
schestowitzVMware is now ran by Microsoft gangstersAug 11 07:13
DaemonFCI saw thatAug 11 07:15
DaemonFCwatch the Linux port get scraggedAug 11 07:15
DaemonFCschestowitz: Apparently Ubuntu can now be  booted up in a VHD by WindowsAug 11 07:19
DaemonFCthat's pretty sickAug 11 07:19
DaemonFCI tried it a couple years ago and it didn't work, it would kernel panicAug 11 07:20
DaemonFCI wonder if this is just a broader part of work on the kernelAug 11 07:20
schestowitzFacing Five Years In Prison For Posting A Photo On MySpace Wearing Gang Colors < >Aug 11 07:35
DaemonFCniceAug 11 07:36
DaemonFCremind me to wear state-approved colors when I make a photo of myselfAug 11 07:36
DaemonFCthe report is correctAug 11 07:39
DaemonFCthe police should follow them and see if they actually do any gang-related activityAug 11 07:39
DaemonFCand bag them and their buddies if they are up to somethingAug 11 07:39
DaemonFCif not, just let it goAug 11 07:39
DaemonFCJoost has cranked down the volume of its videos so you have to turn your volume control to maxAug 11 07:41
DaemonFCand get blasted out tof the room by commercialsAug 11 07:41
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] Cyberattack That Brought Down Twitter & Facebook Only Highlighted The Guy It Hoped To Silence < > So true.Aug 11 07:44
schestowitzMore Companies Firing People Over Social Media (Mis)use < >Aug 11 07:47
schestowitzSeems like an attempt to suck up to FOSS: 11 07:50
schestowitzWhy would they pay so much? I don't trust them.Aug 11 07:50
schestowitzNortel CEO quits, leaving the ship to sink.. 11 07:54
schestowitzUS civil liberties gang questions Obama cookie plan < >Aug 11 07:59
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DaemonFC 11 08:09
DaemonFChehAug 11 08:09
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[omar_s_hafez] RT @mashable Delicious Founder: I Wish I Had Not Sold to Yahoo 11 08:09
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DaemonFC"The problem is that the number of cool projects is pretty minimal. They’re in duck and cover mode. They’ll get pushed to trim employees further and further to stretch the revenues out."Aug 11 08:11
DaemonFCagreedAug 11 08:11
DaemonFCMicrosoft is doing some weird, inexplicable shit lately, now that he mentioned thatAug 11 08:12
DaemonFCfalling back to Windows and Office, selling entire divisions to keep the lights onAug 11 08:13
DaemonFCbad managementAug 11 08:13
DaemonFCI think anyone that sells their project to a big business then expresses horror when it stagnates just didn't understand what they didAug 11 08:14
DaemonFCYahoo doesn't know how to run what it has, he thinks they're going to do wonderful things for Delicious?Aug 11 08:15
DaemonFChe knew they'd ruin it, I think he took the money and ran and is trying to distance himself from that nowAug 11 08:15
DaemonFCbig companies like Yahoo and AOL tried buying up cool things to ruin them just so they wouldn't have to compete with themAug 11 08:16
schestowitzRow over Olympic deal for McDonald's < > THat's what sport is about... advertising and junk food.Aug 11 08:18
schestowitzI abandoned delicious when Yahoo! bought themAug 11 08:19
schestowitzAnd Yahoo! is now throwing away geocities, including my work thereAug 11 08:20
schestowitzMicrosoft ruined Yahoo! even moreAug 11 08:20
schestowitzNew: Yahoo!'s open source elephant loses its daddy < >Aug 11 08:20
schestowitzObama fights back as bid to reform US healthcare stalls < >Aug 11 08:21
schestowitz46 million uninsured Americans... to remain soAug 11 08:21
DaemonFCmost likelyAug 11 08:23
DaemonFCthe big money bastards win againAug 11 08:24
schestowitz Greenpeace in anti-trawling move < > "The environmental group says it will drop 180 boulders off the Swedish and Danish coasts to prevent fishing boats from dragging nets along the sea bed."Aug 11 08:24
schestowitzHumans drive into extinction all other speciesAug 11 08:24
MinceRor themselves, whichever comes first. :>Aug 11 08:25
schestowitzMore DRM junk: 11 08:25
schestowitzMinceR: probably both. It's correlatedAug 11 08:25
DaemonFCCMX=FLOPAug 11 08:26
DaemonFC:PAug 11 08:26
DaemonFCMP3 will continue to dominateAug 11 08:26
schestowitz How to cure diseases before they have even evolved < > Long life, more births...Aug 11 08:26
DaemonFCnothing the record industry has tried all by themselves has workedAug 11 08:27
DaemonFCyou remember back in 2003 when they tried to launch their own stores?Aug 11 08:27
DaemonFCthat lasted like, not even a yearAug 11 08:27
DaemonFCI don't know what makes them think they can succeed while at the same time, making their custoemrs hate them moreAug 11 08:28
DaemonFC"Ours will be a file that you click on, it opens and it would have a brand new look, with a launch page and all the different options. When you click on it you're not just going to get the 10 tracks, you're going to get the artwork, the video and mobile products."Aug 11 08:28
DaemonFCbsAug 11 08:29
schestowitzIndigenous community-based aspects of the Bolivian movement 11 08:29
DaemonFCmore like "Ours is the format that doesn't work with any existing hardware, doesn't work with iTunes, won't let you burn a CD, and costs the same"Aug 11 08:29
DaemonFCwow!, I see a lot of value in that! /sarcasmAug 11 08:30
schestowitz 11 08:30
DaemonFCgee, just let me go buy a new $100 player /sarcasmAug 11 08:30
DaemonFCI'll get right on thatAug 11 08:30
schestowitzMPs urge whistleblower protection < >Aug 11 08:31
DaemonFCIs Douglas Hog among them?Aug 11 08:32
DaemonFC:DAug 11 08:32
DaemonFCor does he prefer that whistleblowers be sentenced to clean his moat?Aug 11 08:32
DaemonFCTony Wright MP said a "culture that encourages proper whistleblowing... is the best safeguard against leaking".Aug 11 08:33
DaemonFCI kind of read that as "We'll try harder not to get caught"Aug 11 08:33
schestowitzNew photos: 11 08:34
DaemonFCprimitive societiesAug 11 08:35
DaemonFChooray!Aug 11 08:36
DaemonFCschestowitz: About your comments on foreign countries raiding Africa's minerals and suchAug 11 08:36
DaemonFCwhy shouldn't they?Aug 11 08:36
DaemonFCSo the people on that continent can keep sitting on them for the next 1,000 years?Aug 11 08:37
DaemonFCit's obvious that most of them will never reach the level of advancement where oil or gold is worth as much to them as an animal carcassAug 11 08:39
schestowitzDeranged thoughtsAug 11 08:45
schestowitzShuttleworth wants to support Debian < >Aug 11 08:46
schestowitzYes, Debian, come to poppa. Mark will be your project leader, too \sarcasmAug 11 08:46
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] Is this a sign of Solaris goes under Oracle/Linux axe? Probably not, but still.... 11 08:49
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DaemonFChehAug 11 08:51
DaemonFCand Ubuntu takeover bid, coolAug 11 08:51
DaemonFC*anAug 11 08:51
DaemonFCDebian has gotten a bit more Ubuntu-likeAug 11 08:54
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] Vista capable PCs are almost here. (Personal Supercomputers Promise Teraflops on Your Desk)Aug 11 08:58
DaemonFCI was talking about that yesterdayAug 11 08:58
DaemonFCNvidia TeslaAug 11 08:58
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] "In my case there is the little problem that Microsoft spent approximately 18 months stalking me."Aug 11 09:01
schestowitzOLPC Australia trying to burnish its image < >Aug 11 09:02
DaemonFCthere's something that made me laugh more than ARM-based netbooks with LinuxAug 11 09:02
DaemonFCNvidia plans ARM-based netbooks with Windows CEAug 11 09:03
DaemonFC 11 09:03
DaemonFCwhat could be more useless than Windows CE on ARM on a netbook?Aug 11 09:04
DaemonFCit's not compatible with Windows softwareAug 11 09:04
DaemonFCwhat are they planning to do regarding application support?Aug 11 09:04
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schestowitzTanking Real Estate Values Take Toll on Pension Funds < >Aug 11 09:17
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[trmanco] RT @mashable Delicious Founder: I Wish I Had Not Sold to Yahoo 11 09:18
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] Goldman Sachs in Talks to Acquire Treasury Department < > [Joke, of course]Aug 11 09:19
DaemonFCthe teachers unions will just wrangle all their losses out of the taxpayersAug 11 09:20
DaemonFC 11 09:22
schestowitzOnline Video goes Mainstream 11 09:23
schestowitzMicrosoft is trying to change tax law... 11 09:26
DaemonFC 11 09:26
schestowitzUsing blackmailAug 11 09:26
DaemonFCWindows Mobile is taking abeatingAug 11 09:26
DaemonFCprobably because a decent phone will run you about $430Aug 11 09:27
trmancoWordpress 2.8.3 is vulnerableAug 11 09:33
trmanco:|Aug 11 09:33
trmancopath has already been published, but there is still no releaseAug 11 09:33
DaemonFCgovernments can't just raise taxes and assume that it won't drive away businessAug 11 09:36
DaemonFCthat's not just a Microsoft thingAug 11 09:36
trmancopatch*Aug 11 09:38
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] More anti-GPL from IDG: The only trend here is GPL FUD, not GPL denialAug 11 09:38
schestowitz 11 09:43
schestowitztrmanco: sighAug 11 09:43
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schestowitzHow to install Mandriva Linux < > That's the version I use. Why use an old one as reference?Aug 11 09:48
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DaemonFC[ Editor's note: InfoWorld tried to interview Richard Stallman, who runs the Free Software Foundation that created and manages the GPL, on this issue, but he demanded control of what we published, so we declined. ]Aug 11 09:50
DaemonFCniceAug 11 09:50
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MinceRquestion is, what kind of control was itAug 11 09:51
DaemonFC"To force the free distribution of source code, the GPL requires publishers to place the source code on the disk they distribute their applications on. Under GPL, "you've got to give it away for free, and you've got to give the source code away for free as well," says analyst Kiewe."Aug 11 09:51
DaemonFCsince when do you have to do this?Aug 11 09:51
DaemonFC:PAug 11 09:51
MinceRsince neverAug 11 09:51
DaemonFCyou don't have to include the source on the same diskAug 11 09:51
schestowitzIntel GMA500 (Poulsbo) on Fedora 11: repository (with working 3D / compiz support) < >Aug 11 09:52
MinceRpoulsbo sucksAug 11 09:52
MinceRnobody should ever use it anywayAug 11 09:52
schestowitzMinceR: probably not to say "open source" nonsenseAug 11 09:52
MinceRit's the weakest intel GMAAug 11 09:52
schestowitzThey only show their hatred of RMSAug 11 09:52
schestowitzWIth such a statmentAug 11 09:52
schestowitz"demanded control of what we published"Aug 11 09:52
schestowitzDemandedAug 11 09:52
schestowitzControl..Aug 11 09:53
MinceRschestowitz: then RMS was right.Aug 11 09:53
schestowitzYeah, it figuresAug 11 09:53
schestowitzSome fool whom I never saw writing for IDG before.Aug 11 09:53
DaemonFCThere's also an "Is Linux Still Relevant" articleAug 11 09:55
DaemonFCstrange that every other article you see published anymore is one of thoseAug 11 09:56
DaemonFCthey don't even need to write new articles you knowAug 11 09:56
DaemonFCthey need to develop a story line generator that cuts and pastes and rearranges the ones they already wroteAug 11 09:57
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DaemonFCand makes up a shock title and author nameAug 11 09:57
MinceRthey just need to fire up Dissociated Press in emacsAug 11 09:57
DaemonFChmmm, you don't suppose they're already doing that, do you? :DAug 11 09:58
DaemonFCit seems silly to pay someone a salary to do that by handAug 11 09:59
MinceRthey might beAug 11 09:59
cubezzzall the EV-1 owners loved their cars, but they still went to the crusherAug 11 10:00
cubezzzall the Zaurus owners loved their PDAs but Sharp stopped making themAug 11 10:01
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cubezzzdidn't Walmart sell a Linux computer at one point, now they don't?Aug 11 10:02
cubezzzthere's been a push-back somewhereAug 11 10:02
DaemonFCit was a cheap horrible machineAug 11 10:03
DaemonFCwell, actually there were several cheap horrible machines that Walmart has sold with LinuxAug 11 10:03
cubezzzthe point is, I can't just walk into a store and buy a linux computer, not easilyAug 11 10:03
DaemonFCI think Microsoft is secretely supplying cheap horrible machines with LinuxAug 11 10:03
DaemonFCI really doAug 11 10:04
DaemonFCwhat better way to make Linux look bad than by shipping it on a cheap horrible machine?Aug 11 10:04
MinceRthey're making computers now?Aug 11 10:04
DaemonFCit's genius reallyAug 11 10:04
DaemonFCI think Microsoft owns EverexAug 11 10:04
MinceRor reselling them?Aug 11 10:04
DaemonFCand is just not telling anyoneAug 11 10:04
cubezzzah, that's paranoid DaemonFC :)Aug 11 10:04
cubezzzright, it's not like Microsoft makes actually computerAug 11 10:05
DaemonFCwell, think about it, they sell shit PCs that have Linux on themAug 11 10:05
DaemonFCor decent PCs with Windows VistaAug 11 10:05
DaemonFCbut the price is the sameAug 11 10:05
MinceRoems in their grip do that alreadyAug 11 10:05
cubezzzI have to give some props to DellAug 11 10:05
MinceRthen i have to take those props away.Aug 11 10:06
MinceR:>Aug 11 10:06
cubezzzthey do sell a Linux netbookAug 11 10:06
DaemonFCeasy way to make Linux look slow, incapable, and bug-riddenAug 11 10:06
DaemonFCmake your own badly done distro and put it on bad hardwareAug 11 10:06
MinceRdell is crapAug 11 10:06
DaemonFCthe Everex gPCAug 11 10:06
cubezzzif money was no object, I get a nice new Panasonic ToughbookAug 11 10:07
DaemonFCreally gOS is a modified UbuntuAug 11 10:07
DaemonFCthey use some kind of modified Enlightenment E17Aug 11 10:07
DaemonFCwith a shit ton of Google AppsAug 11 10:07
DaemonFCit's fairly distrubingAug 11 10:07
DaemonFC*disturbingAug 11 10:07
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[davidgerard] #vlc for #solaris 10: 11 10:07
DaemonFCwhy use Enlightenment and take all your applications from GNOME?Aug 11 10:08
DaemonFCJesusAug 11 10:08
MinceRthat's what gnome did long agoAug 11 10:08
MinceRisn't it? :>Aug 11 10:08
DaemonFCyou would really have to try to slap something worse togetherAug 11 10:08
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MinceRthen m$ really tried.Aug 11 10:08
MinceRthey came up with vista!Aug 11 10:09
cubezzzwell, I'm using Fedora 10, I'm pretty happy with  thatAug 11 10:09
DaemonFCEnlightenment has to be the shittiest window manager there is for LinuxAug 11 10:09
DaemonFCand GNOME apps = ewwwAug 11 10:10
DaemonFCthere's something fishy about gOSAug 11 10:10
schestowitzInternational Mozilla Store Back Online < >Aug 11 10:10
DaemonFCI think Enlightenment may have just been chosen because they only shipped the systems with 512 megs of RAMAug 11 10:11
DaemonFCnothing sinister, just cheap?Aug 11 10:11
schestowitzEverex is out of business, IIRCAug 11 10:12
schestowitzSince a month agoAug 11 10:12
DaemonFCto be fair, the systems were only $200Aug 11 10:12
DaemonFCoh?Aug 11 10:12
DaemonFCHail Dorothy!Aug 11 10:12
schestowitzLook it upAug 11 10:12
MinceRDaemonFC is starting to realize what the whole deal was about!Aug 11 10:12
cubezzzEverex USA is closed, but I think the Taiwanese one is still goingAug 11 10:14
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DaemonFCyeah, they still have drivers and documentation for US customersAug 11 10:14
DaemonFCwho'd have thought that in this economy, the cheap PC maker would go down first?Aug 11 10:15
DaemonFCI've found systems by dumpster diving that were faster than theirs thoughAug 11 10:15
DaemonFC*shrugs*Aug 11 10:15
cubezzzI still find it surprising that windows seems to have such a hold on all the OEMsAug 11 10:15
DaemonFCit's cause it's CHEAPAug 11 10:16
DaemonFCif you're a major OEMAug 11 10:16
DaemonFCand they get to subsidize it by bombarding you with crapwareAug 11 10:16
DaemonFCso $50 Home Premium - all the kickbacks = Maybe $10-20Aug 11 10:16
DaemonFCWhy would an OEM not put Windows on their systems?Aug 11 10:17
DaemonFCit's not costing them muchAug 11 10:17
cubezzzsure, put windows on 90%, but at least put Linux or something else on the other 10%Aug 11 10:17
DaemonFCnow if you want to buy it, that's when the $200+ shit startsAug 11 10:17
DaemonFCand lose all their Microsoft Points?Aug 11 10:18
DaemonFC(Not to be confused with the XBOX Live currency)Aug 11 10:18
cubezzzthere's no way Microsoft should be able to say "You have to sell 100% of your computers with windows preloaded"Aug 11 10:18
DaemonFCthey also give deals to companies like WalmartAug 11 10:18
DaemonFCif you buy 100,000 copies, they'll give you a better per unit priceAug 11 10:19
DaemonFC:PAug 11 10:19
MinceRthe existence m$ Points even exists shows that they must be stoppedAug 11 10:19
DaemonFCWalmart goes in and says "Give us this price or we use Linux"Aug 11 10:19
DaemonFCMicrosoft gives them that priceAug 11 10:19
cubezzzyou don't even get a CD nowadaysAug 11 10:20
DaemonFCthey can't say itAug 11 10:20
DaemonFCit's impliedAug 11 10:20
DaemonFC:)Aug 11 10:20
MinceRthere are supposed to be some controls against such anticompetitive practicesAug 11 10:20
MinceRthen again, the law doesn't work in the usaAug 11 10:20
DaemonFCit worksAug 11 10:20
MinceR(doesn't work much better elsewhere either, to be fair)Aug 11 10:20
cubezzzyour DOJ is supposed to hold microsoft in check :)Aug 11 10:20
DaemonFCwhen it wants toAug 11 10:20
MinceRit works so well, m$ was punished so much for monopoly abuseAug 11 10:20
MinceRoh, waitAug 11 10:21
MinceRDaemonFC: well, evidently it doesn't want to work in matters of anticompetitive practicesAug 11 10:21
DaemonFCI'd say that Linux gets a fair shake, you can get it if you want itAug 11 10:21
MinceRor in matters of libertyAug 11 10:21
MinceRit doesn'tAug 11 10:21
DaemonFCthe market is only as big as demand wants it to beAug 11 10:21
cubezzzDaemonFC, the problem is I don't want to pay _any_ Microsoft taxAug 11 10:21
MinceRthe market is as little as steve ballmer wants it to beAug 11 10:22
cubezzzso my only choice is to build from partsAug 11 10:22
MinceRcubezzz: which you can't do if you want a laptopAug 11 10:22
DaemonFCMinceR: You can't build a PC?Aug 11 10:22
DaemonFCit takes like maybe an hour with all the partsAug 11 10:22
MinceRDaemonFC: you can build a laptop?Aug 11 10:22
cubezzzMinceR: I think it is possible to build a laptop nowadaysAug 11 10:22
DaemonFCyou can buy a Linux laptopAug 11 10:22
MinceRcubezzz: sure, if you're very richAug 11 10:22
cubezzznever tried it myself thoughAug 11 10:22
DaemonFCor you can demand a refund for WindowsAug 11 10:22
DaemonFCthey don't like to advertise thatAug 11 10:23
MinceRDaemonFC: there's a tiny little selection of linux laptopsAug 11 10:23
MinceRand it's dwindlingAug 11 10:23
DaemonFCrefuse the Windows EULAAug 11 10:23
DaemonFCdemand a refundAug 11 10:23
cubezzzDell has a netbook with UbuntuAug 11 10:23
MinceRthat doesn't necessarily workAug 11 10:23
DaemonFCthey'll give you a check for what that copy of Windows cost themAug 11 10:23
DaemonFCabout $50Aug 11 10:23
cubezzzDaemonFC, have you ever actually got a windows refund? :)Aug 11 10:23
DaemonFCyesAug 11 10:23
MinceRlast time i checked it said explicitly that if you demand a refund for windows, that's demanding a refund for whatever it was bundled withAug 11 10:23
MinceRso you get to ship your computer back with everythingAug 11 10:24
DaemonFCMinceR: They can't do thatAug 11 10:24
MinceRso your point is that if i can afford a really good lawyer, i can get a refundAug 11 10:24
DaemonFCI bought a Compaq Presario on a Christmas  sale at WalmartAug 11 10:24
MinceRand that's supposed to be your idea of fairness?Aug 11 10:24
DaemonFCwith XP on itAug 11 10:24
DaemonFCand demanded the refundAug 11 10:24
DaemonFCI didn't want it for XPAug 11 10:24
cubezzzyou probably would have to be pretty determined to get the refundAug 11 10:25
DaemonFCit creates one hell of a logistics problem if thousands of people demand their right for a refundAug 11 10:25
DaemonFCthat tickles meAug 11 10:25
MinceRin fact, demanding the refund is a lot more trouble than buyers should be expected to haveAug 11 10:25
MinceRthat's not a fair situationAug 11 10:25
DaemonFCmeh, I didn't even really expend a lot of effort on itAug 11 10:25
cubezzzright, just give the option of blank computer, I'll do the restAug 11 10:25
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MinceRright, demanding a refund is _exactly_ the same amount of effort as selecting "GNU/Linux" instead of "Windows Vista" in the web configuratorAug 11 10:26
MinceRoh, waitAug 11 10:26
DaemonFCI mailed them back the COA label, they sent me a $50 checkAug 11 10:26
MinceRit fucking isn'tAug 11 10:26
DaemonFCthe endAug 11 10:26
cubezzzmailed who?Aug 11 10:26
DaemonFCHP/CompaqAug 11 10:26
schestowitzThat IDG GPL FUD is better off ignoring, as debunking it would only give it attentionAug 11 10:26
DaemonFCI talked to a supervisor, they actually have a system in place for that, oddly enoughAug 11 10:27
DaemonFCso it tells you people do ask for a refund sometimesAug 11 10:27
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DaemonFCthey opened a support ticket, told me how to mail them the COA labelAug 11 10:27
DaemonFCthe hardest part about it was mailing the COA label inAug 11 10:28
MinceRok, i'll repeat it _just for you_Aug 11 10:28
MinceR114743 < MinceR> right, demanding a refund is _exactly_ the same amount of effort as selecting "GNU/Linux" instead of "Windows Vista" in the web configuratorAug 11 10:28
DaemonFCI had to go get a stamp at the post office you seeAug 11 10:28
cubezzzok, that's good to know HP/Compaq refunded youAug 11 10:28
DaemonFCyeah, except that then you get fuckedAug 11 10:28
Diablo-D3ye godsAug 11 10:28
Diablo-D3is DaemonFC still here?Aug 11 10:28
DaemonFCless RAM, no printer, crappy selectionAug 11 10:28
DaemonFCcosts moreAug 11 10:28
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DaemonFCthey find ways to punish you for choosing Linux to begin withAug 11 10:29
DaemonFCtheir promos almost never apply to their Linux systemsAug 11 10:29
MinceRDiablo-D3: well, apparently we need a m$ apologist around to crapflood the channelAug 11 10:29
Diablo-D3MinceR: wtfAug 11 10:29
Diablo-D3if Microsoft would pay me, I'd do it better :<Aug 11 10:30
DaemonFCI actually ended up about $200 aheadAug 11 10:30
cubezzzI don't find HP too bad to deal withAug 11 10:30
Diablo-D3cubezzz: noAug 11 10:30
Diablo-D3HP consumer shit is badAug 11 10:30
Diablo-D3their enterprise stuff is fineAug 11 10:30
cubezzzthey gave me programming specsAug 11 10:30
cubezzzfor my scannerAug 11 10:30
MinceRDiablo-D3: i don't know if he does it because he gets paid for it or because he believes their products to be so awesome... or both.Aug 11 10:30
cubezzzDiablo-D3, yeah, this was the dev group for scannersAug 11 10:30
Diablo-D3MinceR: well, if he legitimately likes them, we technically cant call him a shillAug 11 10:31
Diablo-D3MinceR: we can call him a fucktard, but we cant call him a shillAug 11 10:31
MinceRDiablo-D3: i prefer to call him a fucktard anyway. :>Aug 11 10:31
DaemonFCbecause it makes you sound like a 15 year old?Aug 11 10:32
MinceRit does?Aug 11 10:32
Diablo-D3it does?Aug 11 10:32
Diablo-D3he might be rightAug 11 10:32
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] How to Advance GNU/Linux Awareness 11 10:32
Diablo-D3I've been saying it since I was like 10Aug 11 10:32
MinceRoh, right, now i rememberAug 11 10:32
MinceRsaying bad things about m$ fanboys makes you sound like a 1x year oldAug 11 10:33
DaemonFCMincer: Now if we can just get you to play Halo 2 and shout "fucktard" into the microphone after I corpse hump youAug 11 10:33
MinceRx is chosen by the m$ fanboyAug 11 10:33
Diablo-D3man, I missed celebrating my 15th anniversary of calling people fucktardsAug 11 10:33
MinceRi've forgot about that ruleAug 11 10:33
DaemonFC....Aug 11 10:33
MinceRDaemonFC: and how old does corpse humping make you look?Aug 11 10:33
DaemonFC25Aug 11 10:33
MinceRlolAug 11 10:33
MinceRapparently m$ fanboys' idea of being an adult is corpse humping in an FPS made for a system that lacks the proper controllers for FPS-esAug 11 10:34
Diablo-D3MinceR: wellAug 11 10:34
MinceRi'm sure you feel really smug about itAug 11 10:34
DaemonFCHalo 2 for VISTA!Aug 11 10:34
Diablo-D3we know our soldiers in iraq corpse humpAug 11 10:34
DaemonFCnyaaahAug 11 10:34
MinceRDiablo-D3: well, they're usians -- nuff said.Aug 11 10:34
Diablo-D3MinceR: hey!Aug 11 10:34
MinceRso is DaemonFC.Aug 11 10:34
DaemonFCno, they fuck them before killing everyone around and burning the house down to destroy evidenceAug 11 10:34
Diablo-D3I only corpse hump DaemonFC's momAug 11 10:35
DaemonFCthere was a newspaper article about itAug 11 10:35
DaemonFCI just have to assume that "abstinence only" "education" is there so there's more future soldiersAug 11 10:36
DaemonFChiring from the shallow end of the gene pool is never a bad ideaAug 11 10:36
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] Web and New Form Factors Ease Migration to GNU/Linux 11 10:36
Diablo-D3DaemonFC: why would the military ever hire you? get realAug 11 10:36
MinceRDaemonFC: then you should ensign immediately.Aug 11 10:36
DaemonFCI've spent my whole life sticking it to the man, how can *I* be the man? *grin*Aug 11 10:37
MinceRyou can'tAug 11 10:37
DaemonFCthere you goAug 11 10:37
MinceRbut you can be a mindless grunt sent into the grinder _for_ the man!Aug 11 10:37
Diablo-D3dude, your whole life a man has been sticking it in you, stfu.Aug 11 10:37
DaemonFCnot reallyAug 11 10:38
MinceRjust like you're a mindless zombie advertising the man, right nowAug 11 10:38
DaemonFCnopeAug 11 10:38
Diablo-D3microsoft is the man! *gasp!* it all makes sense now!Aug 11 10:38
DaemonFCto be sticking it to me, they'd have to be making money from meAug 11 10:38
Diablo-D3MinceR: I would have thought the man was... I dunno, bigger.Aug 11 10:38
DaemonFCconsidering I don't pay them anything, that could be a problemAug 11 10:38
MinceRwell, i think "the man" isn't a good termAug 11 10:38
MinceRthere's nothing manly about trying to make up for one's insecurities by oppressing peopleAug 11 10:39
Diablo-D3MinceR: unless Im oppressing DaemonFC's momAug 11 10:39
Diablo-D3she likes it roughAug 11 10:39
DaemonFCthe 90s calledAug 11 10:40
DaemonFCthey want their insults backAug 11 10:40
DaemonFC:PAug 11 10:40
MinceRDaemonFC: sorry for using insults that existed before you were bornAug 11 10:40
Diablo-D3the jerk store called, they're out of you.Aug 11 10:40
MinceRi really thought they could be learned despite thatAug 11 10:40
DaemonFCMinceR 1983?Aug 11 10:40
DaemonFCperhapsAug 11 10:40
DaemonFCthat was just before I was bornAug 11 10:40
DaemonFCan entire year beforeAug 11 10:41
DaemonFCthat go back far enough?Aug 11 10:41
MinceRDaemonFC: then you should work on growing up instead of wasting your breath hereAug 11 10:41
MinceRyou're really far behindAug 11 10:41
Diablo-D3LUKE I AM YOUR FAAATHER. The condom broke.Aug 11 10:41
MinceRlolAug 11 10:41
MinceR"luke, i fucked your mother"Aug 11 10:41
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] Real-Time Linux Workshop is Coming , Overview of Linux Features to Come 11 10:41
DaemonFCNever!!!!!! Those things get stress tested!Aug 11 10:41
DaemonFCIt's IMPOSSIBLE!!!!!!Aug 11 10:41
DaemonFCthe cheap ones breakAug 11 10:42
*amarsh04_ is now known as amarsh04Aug 11 10:42
Diablo-D3That explains your existenceAug 11 10:42
MinceRindeedAug 11 10:42
DaemonFCI don't think Darth Vader is poorAug 11 10:42
MinceRbbl, foodAug 11 10:42
DaemonFCI mean he is kind of the second in command of Sith-landAug 11 10:43
DaemonFCright?Aug 11 10:43
Diablo-D3bbl, DaemonFC's mom and a pack of trojansAug 11 10:43
DaemonFCDick Cheney made a fair bit of moneyAug 11 10:43
DaemonFC 11 10:49
DaemonFCNazi war criminal jailed for lifeAug 11 10:49
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] K Desktop Environment Thinks Ahead of the Competition 11 10:49
DaemonFCyay, the Brits took the last 2 weeks of his lifeAug 11 10:49
DaemonFCway to goAug 11 10:50
DaemonFCoh, I'm sorry, he was tried in ItalyAug 11 10:51
DaemonFCwell anyway, why do they bother?Aug 11 10:51
DaemonFC90 years old, how long could he possibly live?Aug 11 10:51
Ngwhat baout if he was 80?Aug 11 10:51
DaemonFCwaiting 64 years to bring someone to trial is pretty damned stupidAug 11 10:52
DaemonFCat that point, it doesn't even matter anymoreAug 11 10:52
Ngdo you know why it took 64 years?Aug 11 10:53
Ngwhat if it had only taken 54 years? or 44?Aug 11 10:53
DaemonFCno, and I don't careAug 11 10:53
Ngyou seem to be very keen to draw linesAug 11 10:53
Ngif you don't care why do you think it's stupid?Aug 11 10:53
DaemonFCthey already let him live his entire life by failure to catch him while there was something to takeAug 11 10:53
DaemonFChe basically got away with itAug 11 10:54
Ngmost of his life, not his entire life, he's still alive :)Aug 11 10:54
DaemonFCwhen I'm 90 years old, I don't care what happensAug 11 10:54
Nglet's see you say that when you're 90 and your mortality is staring you in the face every dayAug 11 10:55
DaemonFCit wouldn't stop me from robbing a bank today if I knew they wouldn't catch me til I was 90Aug 11 10:55
DaemonFC(statute of limitations aside)Aug 11 10:55
DaemonFChe's 90 years old, what's left?Aug 11 10:55
Nghe could live another 20 yearsAug 11 10:56
DaemonFCdoubt itAug 11 10:57
Ngwhy is a day in his life worth less than a day in yours just because he's 90 times your age?Aug 11 10:57
DaemonFCmost people would be dead 20 years before himAug 11 10:57
DaemonFCif he died todayAug 11 10:57
DaemonFCif they gave me a life sentence, they would be taking 50-70 years probablyAug 11 10:58
DaemonFCfrom him? he could already die of old age any secondAug 11 10:58
Ngyou could die any secondAug 11 10:58
Ng"Once upon a time, a god asked a great king 'What is the most amazing thing in the world?'. The king replied that every day a million souls pass into the abode of death and yet none believes that they shall follow."Aug 11 10:59
DaemonFCI know I'll die, but I'll probably still be alive and kicking 50 years after he's goneAug 11 11:00
Ngin that case he should definitely be allowed to murder anyone he wants without being jailed!Aug 11 11:00
DaemonFCor they could just execute him nowAug 11 11:01
DaemonFCand get it over withAug 11 11:01
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] Sub-notebooks with Charity Killer's Chipset and GNU/Linux Improve 11 11:01
NgDaemonFC: germany doesn't have the death penalty, so they can't do thatAug 11 11:02
DaemonFCI know, their lossAug 11 11:02
DaemonFCI say we just have a fire sale on bad guysAug 11 11:02
DaemonFCeverything must goAug 11 11:02
DaemonFC:)Aug 11 11:02
Ngyou are mistaken, it's their win, because they are a civilised countryAug 11 11:03
DaemonFCnoAug 11 11:03
DaemonFCthey let rapists and murderers liveAug 11 11:04
DaemonFCthey are not civilizedAug 11 11:04
DaemonFCa civilized country disposes of their worst criminalsAug 11 11:04
DaemonFCbetter for everyoneAug 11 11:04
Nghave you ever looked at a list of countries that still have the death penalty? ;)Aug 11 11:04
DaemonFCI know, they're squeemish about itAug 11 11:04
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DaemonFCI don't have any problem with executing some of the sick fucks who live on in prisonAug 11 11:05
schestowitzWatch your languageAug 11 11:05
DaemonFCthey need to let the family members do it if they wantAug 11 11:05
Diablo-D3schestowitz: ban him alreadyAug 11 11:06
Diablo-D3schestowitz: everyone has asked you to do it, do it alreadyAug 11 11:06
DaemonFCthere's no justice in a system that lets murderers live out the rest of their lives in comfortAug 11 11:06
NgDaemonFC: skip down to the bottom and see the glorious teammates of the US in the death penalty league, then maybe wonder if you're young and angry and wrong ;)Aug 11 11:07
DaemonFCat taxpayer expense for that matterAug 11 11:07
Ngthey're pretty much all your enemies, which is as much hilarious as it is sadly tellingAug 11 11:07
DaemonFCno, they should let the families of those victims execute them in whatever way they wantAug 11 11:08
DaemonFCwell, on this issue, they're rightAug 11 11:08
DaemonFCI'm not such a bleeding heart that I'd have any problem with executing a Charles MansonAug 11 11:08
Ngbut you'd let a 90 year old war criminal walk free?Aug 11 11:09
Ngstrange contradiction don't you think?Aug 11 11:09
Ngsurely the children of those he murdered should be allowed to hack him to death with machetes?Aug 11 11:09
DaemonFCno, I didn't say they shouldAug 11 11:09
DaemonFCthey should shoot himAug 11 11:10
DaemonFCstuff him in a pine boxAug 11 11:10
DaemonFCand put him in the groundAug 11 11:10
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DaemonFCit's better than what his victims gotAug 11 11:10
DaemonFCand 64 more years than he deservedAug 11 11:10
DaemonFCinstead they get a Nazi war criminal and are all like "No, can't kill him, it wouldn'r be humane"Aug 11 11:11
DaemonFCI mean, damnAug 11 11:11
DaemonFChow many people do you have to butcher for the far left to shut the hell up and take the gloves off?Aug 11 11:12
Nghaha, "the far left" \o/Aug 11 11:12
NgI think you mean "normal people"Aug 11 11:12
DaemonFCno, I'm sure if someone murdered your whole family, you'd change your mindAug 11 11:12
DaemonFCpretty damned fastAug 11 11:12
Ngwhy are you sure of that?Aug 11 11:13
DaemonFCyou'd want them to hand you a bat and the guy that did itAug 11 11:13
DaemonFCthat's what you would wantAug 11 11:13
Ngyou can't possibly know that, and even if it were true it doesn't mean society should indulge an individual's desire for revengeAug 11 11:13
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DaemonFCthey shouldAug 11 11:13
Ngthat lowers the individual and everyone else to the level of the murdererAug 11 11:14
DaemonFCno, it doesn'tAug 11 11:14
Ngit absolutely doesAug 11 11:14
DaemonFCit's called consequencesAug 11 11:14
DaemonFCapparently that concept is lost on EuropeansAug 11 11:14
DaemonFCtheir life should be forfeit the moment that they do that, and they should damned well know itAug 11 11:15
Ngyou seem like you'd prefer to do away with courts and judges and just have a mob with pitchforksAug 11 11:15
DaemonFCno, not at allAug 11 11:16
DaemonFCfair trial and THEN mob with pitch forksAug 11 11:16
DaemonFCwho says you can't have everything? B-)Aug 11 11:16
Ngand what do you gain by killing a murderer? you haven't punished them at allAug 11 11:16
DaemonFCthere's worset thigns than just dyingAug 11 11:17
DaemonFCdid I say lethal injection?Aug 11 11:17
Nglike being stuck in a cage for decades?Aug 11 11:17
DaemonFCthat's not what they doAug 11 11:17
DaemonFCthose people have exercise equipment and televisionAug 11 11:17
DaemonFCall kinds of stuffAug 11 11:17
DaemonFCbetter than free people in some countriesAug 11 11:17
Ngthey are denied their liberty though, that is the consequenceAug 11 11:17
DaemonFChardlyAug 11 11:17
DaemonFCprison doesn't scare them or they wouldn't be criminalsAug 11 11:18
Ngtelevision isn't libertyAug 11 11:18
DaemonFCthey don't care, prison doesn't bother themAug 11 11:18
DaemonFCit's a mindset they haveAug 11 11:18
DaemonFCyou can't threaten them with something that doesn't mean anything to themAug 11 11:19
Ngand yet you still have murder in places where you have the death penaltyAug 11 11:19
Ngso that's clearly not a deterrant eitherAug 11 11:19
DaemonFCnot reallyAug 11 11:19
NgreallyAug 11 11:19
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[trmanco] RT @mashable Geek Parents Reject N00b Boyfriend [Video] 11 11:20
DaemonFCliberals have made it so hard to execute someone it takes 20 years to do it anywayAug 11 11:20
DaemonFCand they get like 20 million appealsAug 11 11:20
DaemonFCand are painlessly put to sleep like an elderly catAug 11 11:20
DaemonFCif it ever happensAug 11 11:20
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[trmanco] RT @mashable Microsoft: IE6 Cannot Die || meh, we should not listen to them...Aug 11 11:21
NgI've seen some suggestions that lethal injection is actually not painless at allAug 11 11:21
DaemonFCwell, that's a good start themAug 11 11:21
DaemonFC*thenAug 11 11:21
Ngbut one of the injections induces paralysis, so it's impossible to express the pain of the heart-stopping injectionAug 11 11:21
MinceRreAug 11 11:21
DaemonFClets just take the uncertainty out and cause them the most excruciating death imaginableAug 11 11:22
MinceR120428 < DaemonFC> I mean he is kind of the second in command of Sith-landAug 11 11:22
MinceRhe was until he got killedAug 11 11:22
DaemonFCwell, there's thatAug 11 11:22
MinceRor approximately, depending on how far Palpatine got in falling before thatAug 11 11:22
DaemonFCand I don't see Dick Cheney ever redeeming himselfAug 11 11:22
NgDaemonFC: let's not :)Aug 11 11:22
DaemonFCIE 6? simple, tell them to upgrade or go awayAug 11 11:24
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-BNc/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] Robotics Companies Reach Realisation That Linux-like Peer Development is Better 11 11:25
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DaemonFC"The engineering point of view on IE6 starts as an operating systems supplier. Dropping support for IE6 is not an option because we committed to supporting the IE included with Windows for the lifespan  of the product."Aug 11 11:27
DaemonFCso IE 6 doesn't die til 2014Aug 11 11:27
DaemonFCsuperAug 11 11:27
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-BNc/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] Firefox 3.6 is Slated for Release This Year 11 11:33
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[trmanco] RT @mashable Google’s Orkut Drops Support for IE6 11 11:35
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[trmanco] RE: @mashable All the major websites should also do this! 11 11:37
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] More Corruption Found in Journals and Reporting 11 11:38
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] ISPs Fight Surveillance Demands 11 11:41
DaemonFC 11 11:45
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] Encyclopedia Britannica Resorts to Patents, Like Other Dying Entities (SCOpyright, MicroSCOft) 11 11:51
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] Too Monopolistic Bodies (Created by the Rich for the Rich) Grow Closer 11 11:53
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] Microsoft Abuse Against Sub-notebooks Carries on 11 11:58
DaemonFC 11 11:58
DaemonFCJanuary 8  – George H. W. Bush is televised falling violently ill at a state dinner in Japan, vomiting into the lap of Prime Minister Kiichi Miyazawa and fainting.Aug 11 11:58
DaemonFCheheAug 11 11:58
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] Bill Gates Dumps MSFT (Maybe he Knows Better) 11 11:59
Diablo-D3schestowitz: that new article is bsAug 11 12:00
Diablo-D3thats most likely a planned sellAug 11 12:00
Diablo-D3has nothing to do with microsoftAug 11 12:00
MinceRbut was the plan to sell when he knew things were going badly? :>Aug 11 12:02
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] Windows Mobile on the Road to Nowhere 11 12:02
Diablo-D3MinceR: thats not what I meanAug 11 12:02
Diablo-D3he needed the moneyAug 11 12:03
Diablo-D3its also the size of a planned saleAug 11 12:03
Diablo-D3(ie, very very small)Aug 11 12:03
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] Microsoft's Vicious Attack on Yahoo! Harms Free Software 11 12:04
DaemonFC7 million shares is tiny?Aug 11 12:04
Diablo-D3when you have almost 800 million, yesAug 11 12:04
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] Microsoft is Still Aggressive Against Web Standards 11 12:05
Diablo-D3he sold about 1% of his shares.Aug 11 12:05
DaemonFCyeah, that's "only" about $169 millionAug 11 12:05
DaemonFCthat's not that much for Bill GatesAug 11 12:06
Diablo-D3rich people who are invested in their company heavily do small buys and sells like that all the timeAug 11 12:06
DaemonFCwhy?Aug 11 12:06
DaemonFCwhat's the point of selling it while it's in the crapper and buying it while it's expensive?Aug 11 12:06
DaemonFCisn't that kind of backwards?Aug 11 12:07
Diablo-D3to cover debts/margins? to invest in something else? to visit vegas?Aug 11 12:07
Diablo-D3who caresAug 11 12:07
DaemonFCactually, Microsoft has been kind of stagnant for the last few years anywayAug 11 12:07
Diablo-D3its a fact they do it, why they do it is immaterialAug 11 12:07
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-BNc/#boycottnovell-[trmanco] just voted "miley cyrus" on "If you had a chance to hang out with one actress.... who ?" vote too ➔ 11 12:08
DaemonFCinvest in something else sounds bestAug 11 12:08
Diablo-D3he could also be donating money to a charitable organizationAug 11 12:08
Diablo-D3it doesnt matter why he does itAug 11 12:09
*lis` ( has joined #boycottnovellAug 11 12:09
Diablo-D3the only thing that matters is it was a small holding and is not indicative of anythingAug 11 12:09
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[trmanco] just voted "Demi Lovato" on "Who's prettier?" vote too ➔ 11 12:10
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[trmanco] RT @tweetmeme Carsonified » Five Things That Will Kill Your Site 11 12:17
schestowitzNice montage: 11 12:19
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[trmanco] KDE 4.3 on a MacBook Pro: 11 12:55
oiaohmReally is funny DaemonFC.  Why be selling shares when the market is down.Aug 11 12:58
oiaohmIf the stocks are good.Aug 11 12:58
Ng"the market" is irrelevant :)Aug 11 12:59
Ngif you hold a load of MSFT shares and you need some cash, you sell themAug 11 13:00
Ngthey're not quite back where they were at their peak, but MSFT has rebounded a good amountAug 11 13:00
Ngwell, their peak within the last 5 years, the absolute peak was a decade agoAug 11 13:01
schestowitzYou sell when you foresee a declineAug 11 13:02
schestowitzUnless you must liquifyAug 11 13:02
schestowitz*liquidateAug 11 13:02
Ngif bill gates was any good at forseeing declines he'd have sold a big stack of shares last year ;)Aug 11 13:03
Ngnot a (relatively) tiny amount nowAug 11 13:03
oiaohmHe did sell an ammount last year.Aug 11 13:03
oiaohmThat is why the question of motive exist Ng.Aug 11 13:05
*lis` has quit (Read error: 60 (Operation timed out))Aug 11 13:06
DaemonFC 11 13:09
DaemonFCRachel Maddow exposes the Republican astroturfer millionairesAug 11 13:09
oiaohmYou have missed it.Aug 11 13:13
oiaohmDrug companies don't want health care reform.Aug 11 13:13
Diablo-D3oiaohm: who has ops in here?Aug 11 13:13
oiaohmIf a system enters the USA like that is here in Australia.Aug 11 13:14
oiaohmProfit for drug companies drop massively.  DaemonFCAug 11 13:14
Diablo-D3why do you think the drug companies destroyed medicare under the bush yearsAug 11 13:14
DaemonFCyou sign up for Facebook and get visited by the ghosts of shitness pastAug 11 13:14
DaemonFCI swearAug 11 13:14
DaemonFC:PAug 11 13:14
Diablo-D3medicare part D makes both drug companies and insurance companies richAug 11 13:14
oiaohmschestowitz: is about the only op unless he has issues one in case he is not here Diablo-D3.Aug 11 13:15
Diablo-D3oiaohm: so why is DaemonFC still here >_>Aug 11 13:15
oiaohmDiablo-D3: when DaemonFC loses an arguement he accepts it and does not keep on bring it up.Aug 11 13:16
Diablo-D3oiaohm: but he just starts another argument or says some other stupid shitAug 11 13:16
Diablo-D3oiaohm: he also likes microsoft productsAug 11 13:16
DaemonFCwho are these people? Facebook keeps adding people I haven't talked to in 5 years or who I don't even knowAug 11 13:16
DaemonFCgahAug 11 13:16
oiaohmThere is always a mixture of people Diablo-D3.Aug 11 13:17
DaemonFCthere's a few I had on my AIM list 10 years ago, coolAug 11 13:18
DaemonFCand the internet remembers my sex life better than I do apparently, geezAug 11 13:18
DaemonFC:PAug 11 13:19
*DaemonFC considers deleting his account to keep this list from growingAug 11 13:19
DaemonFCand I got a pingbackAug 11 13:22
DaemonFCexcitement never ceasesAug 11 13:22
DaemonFC 11 13:22
oiaohmNice the game is progressing go back 5 years people would not even been worryng about heavy marketing of foss DaemonFCAug 11 13:26
DaemonFCno, 5 years ago it was just the XP munchkins covering "It's a Small World After All" :)Aug 11 13:26
DaemonFCand you had to lean your head out of the ride and barf now and thenAug 11 13:27
oiaohmThe thing I away find as funny is people laughing at Linux as being sold as a toy.Aug 11 13:28
oiaohmThat is exactly what was though of dos when it was first sold.Aug 11 13:28
oiaohmIt was a toy machine compared to Unix mainframes.Aug 11 13:28
DaemonFCI still find the story amusing of when someone asked Bill Gates if UNIX posed a threat to Microsoft (back in the 80s)Aug 11 13:29
DaemonFChe smiled and asked "Which UNIX?"Aug 11 13:30
DaemonFCUNIX was too fragmented and top heavy to use in any meaningful way on a PCAug 11 13:30
DaemonFCnow it's just too old and there's too many throwbacks to bad designAug 11 13:30
DaemonFCthere needs to be a reinvention of the operating system, but nobody is doing itAug 11 13:31
oiaohmVery poor arguement.Aug 11 13:31
oiaohmThinking that Unix is just a brand name not a standard.Aug 11 13:32
DaemonFCwell, Alan Cox finally had it out with Linus Torvalds and quit maintaining the TTY subsystemAug 11 13:32
DaemonFCthe TTY subsystem is a total archaic messAug 11 13:32
DaemonFCand the only reason it's not worse is because top people like Cox unmangled it enough to useAug 11 13:32
oiaohmThe disput between Alan Cox and Linus is not a clear cut as you are making out.Aug 11 13:32
DaemonFCof course it isAug 11 13:33
oiaohmThe thing Alan Cox was altering is not documented in Posix standard for TTY.Aug 11 13:33
DaemonFCTorvalds wanted him to break a dozen things because emacs has a bugAug 11 13:33
oiaohmIt not part of the standard.Aug 11 13:33
DaemonFCsounds pretty clear cut to meAug 11 13:33
oiaohmFirst thing you missed its not part of the standard.Aug 11 13:33
DaemonFCthen why is it there?Aug 11 13:34
Diablo-D3if its not part of the standard... it should be removedAug 11 13:34
DaemonFCLinux has many things that are not POSIX standardsAug 11 13:34
oiaohmAlan Cox was doing a alteration that breaks application compadiblity with a particular version.Aug 11 13:34
DaemonFCthat's why BSD has to support Linux "extensions" in an optional subsystemAug 11 13:34
oiaohmIe 2.4 and 2.6 have different network stacks.Aug 11 13:34
oiaohmTTY might become trigger to change to 2.8 linux kernel yet.Aug 11 13:34
DaemonFCin an ideal world, Linux would conform to standardsAug 11 13:35
DaemonFCbut it really doesn'tAug 11 13:35
DaemonFCit's kind of the Internet Explorer of POSIX from my understandingAug 11 13:35
oiaohmIf you are going to break application compadiblity with kernel  you are ment to plan a major version change of kernel.Aug 11 13:35
DaemonFCand if you want a better POSIX system, you're better off with FreeBSDAug 11 13:35
oiaohmLinux does conform to posix standards.Aug 11 13:35
oiaohmVery closely.Aug 11 13:35
oiaohmProblem is there is a lot outside posix standard that is not defined.Aug 11 13:36
DaemonFCthen why does FreeBSD need an entire subsystem devoted to Linux simulation?Aug 11 13:36
DaemonFCif applications are written to POSIX standards they portAug 11 13:36
DaemonFCif they're not, you need a compatibility systemAug 11 13:36
oiaohmPosix applications just work.Aug 11 13:36
oiaohmPure ones do.Aug 11 13:36
DaemonFCso why are Linux applications special?Aug 11 13:36
oiaohmPosix does not define syscall numbers.Aug 11 13:36
DaemonFCwhy don't they port? why do they need non-standard extensions?Aug 11 13:37
oiaohmPure posix applications built for Linux just need remaped syscalls.Aug 11 13:37
oiaohmNothing more.Aug 11 13:37
oiaohmFreeBSD added extra emulation to cover other areas.Aug 11 13:37
oiaohmYou are aware no where in posix defines sound card outputs.Aug 11 13:38
DaemonFCyeah, implementation gapsAug 11 13:38
DaemonFCbummerAug 11 13:38
oiaohmThere are a huge long lists of areas posix does not cover.Aug 11 13:38
DaemonFCmeans everyone with a POSIX system gets to fill in the blankAug 11 13:38
DaemonFCtheir own special way :PAug 11 13:38
oiaohmWere both freebsd and Linux did there own things.Aug 11 13:38
oiaohmLinux syscall's support are a requirement for Unix trademark usage these days.Aug 11 13:39
oiaohmMost because Linux syscall numbers are stable.Aug 11 13:40
DaemonFClinux distributions in particular annoy me because they all take a sort of "artistic license" in putting their systems togetherAug 11 13:40
oiaohmFreebsd has changed there syscall numbers between versions and even include a system to remap syscalls due to difference between own versions.Aug 11 13:40
DaemonFCat least with FreeBSD I know what I get in the base systemAug 11 13:40
DaemonFCLinux has no such concept because everything is an add-onAug 11 13:40
oiaohmFreeBSD kernel with debian on top.Aug 11 13:41
oiaohmSorry Freebsd comes in many forms DaemonFCAug 11 13:41
DaemonFCif I get an "Ubuntu base system" it's jsut whatever they decided to package together from seperate projectsAug 11 13:41
oiaohmNot always with BSD parts.Aug 11 13:41
DaemonFCyeah, those are obscure thoughAug 11 13:41
DaemonFCI doubt anyone is using itAug 11 13:41
DaemonFCit's not even easily installable or supportedAug 11 13:41
oiaohmMost Linux distributions are using a common core parts.Aug 11 13:42
oiaohmTo the same extent netBSd use common core parts to FreeBSDAug 11 13:42
oiaohmBSD have not had as much distribution spliting.Aug 11 13:42
DaemonFCI don't see why you would want to bust up a coherent system that was designed by the same team and replace it with GNU parts and pieces insteadAug 11 13:42
DaemonFCif that floats your boat, by all means, but I don't see the pointAug 11 13:42
oiaohmThere are some applications that only work with GNU parts.Aug 11 13:43
oiaohmAnd fail to run on BSD parts.Aug 11 13:43
DaemonFClike what?Aug 11 13:43
DaemonFCI've never come across any such thingAug 11 13:43
oiaohmCan be as simple as a application using bash shell scripts.Aug 11 13:44
DaemonFCbashismsAug 11 13:44
DaemonFCgahAug 11 13:44
oiaohmAnd there are a lot more.Aug 11 13:44
DaemonFCstrangulation of the people that use those would be a good startAug 11 13:44
oiaohmThat you have not come across them is luck.Aug 11 13:44
oiaohmOr maybe you prefer to forget when you do DaemonFCAug 11 13:44
DaemonFCI'd rather just forget all of the scripts that use thoseAug 11 13:45
DaemonFCand BASHAug 11 13:45
DaemonFCtcsh is the typical shell for BSDAug 11 13:45
DaemonFCand it is POSIX compliantAug 11 13:45
oiaohmThere are a few programs that depend on particular features of glibcAug 11 13:45
DaemonFCwith no added crapAug 11 13:45
DaemonFCyou can pull in glibc without taking a wrecking ball to your in-place systemAug 11 13:46
DaemonFC:)Aug 11 13:46
oiaohmSome complex applications you can basically end up with a wrecking ball.Aug 11 13:47
oiaohmNeeding Glibc gnu C++ extentions bash java  and php.Aug 11 13:47
oiaohmAnd apache.Aug 11 13:47
oiaohmTo work.Aug 11 13:47
DaemonFCthe Linuxulator is fairly lightweight anyway, I have it just because I do have a few proprietary programs that were written and compiled with Linux in mindAug 11 13:47
DaemonFCperformance is equal to LinuxAug 11 13:48
oiaohmA long term ago there was a reverse mapping for freebsd applications running on Linux.Aug 11 13:48
oiaohmIt kinda died out.Aug 11 13:48
DaemonFCit's easier to use the Linuxulator than to ask the company that made the software to quit being stupidAug 11 13:49
DaemonFC:)Aug 11 13:49
oiaohmMore because closed source companies stoped releasing applications for freebsd.Aug 11 13:49
oiaohmSo what was the point.Aug 11 13:49
DaemonFCpoint is, it's more reliableAug 11 13:49
DaemonFCin my experienceAug 11 13:49
DaemonFCI always seem to crash Linux by doing something evilAug 11 13:50
DaemonFCFreeBSD does not make me change my evil waysAug 11 13:50
DaemonFC:PAug 11 13:50
oiaohmLinux secuirty side is more flexable than FreeBSD's.Aug 11 13:50
oiaohmSo yes in non carefull hands it can bite bad.Aug 11 13:50
DaemonFCWine on FreeBSD does not seem to crash and burn X quite like Linux seems to let itAug 11 13:50
DaemonFCI don't know the particular voodoo behind thatAug 11 13:51
oiaohmI have seen Wine kill FreeBSD.Aug 11 13:51
Diablo-D3wine should never crash XAug 11 13:51
DaemonFCthe sound system doesn't glitch on FreeBSDAug 11 13:51
oiaohmSame kind of way kernel driver going nuts.Aug 11 13:51
DaemonFCit does on LinuxAug 11 13:51
Diablo-D3thats an X bug if it doesAug 11 13:51
DaemonFCPulseaudio makes it even worseAug 11 13:51
Diablo-D3DaemonFC: DO NOT USE PULSEAUDIOAug 11 13:51
Diablo-D3IT IS HORRID SHITAug 11 13:51
DaemonFCso I have noticedAug 11 13:52
Ngpulse is awesomeAug 11 13:52
oiaohmDifference here DaemonFC FreeBSD gets latter drivers from Nvidia and the like.Aug 11 13:52
Ngit is the future. deal with it.Aug 11 13:52
Diablo-D3Ng: if thats the future, Ill go use windowsAug 11 13:52
oiaohmIe only the stable tested drivers on Linux users get made for FreeBSD users.Aug 11 13:52
NgDiablo-D3: bye then :)Aug 11 13:52
DaemonFCit seems like every time someone updates their Linux distro it's like they pretend it's safe to go back in the (Pulseaudio) waterAug 11 13:52
DaemonFCand then come to find out the new version screws you over even harderAug 11 13:52
oiaohmSo X11 difference is nothing more than a driver quality differen DaemonFCAug 11 13:52
Diablo-D3Ng: I replaced pulseaudio with a single .asoundrcAug 11 13:53
oiaohmIf you were talking about solarias you would have had some grounds DaemonFCAug 11 13:53
oiaohmSolarias X11 stack is different to both Linux and freebsd.Aug 11 13:53
Diablo-D3oiaohm: noAug 11 13:53
Diablo-D3solaris uses xorg nowAug 11 13:53
oiaohmIe Linux and Freebsd basically use the same X11 stack.Aug 11 13:53
Diablo-D3at least, some solarii doAug 11 13:53
oiaohmsolarias has a difference at driver level.Aug 11 13:53
oiaohmIt already has kernel mode switching.Aug 11 13:53
Diablo-D3they're porting DRI to solaris tooAug 11 13:53
DaemonFCit seems like no distro is hapopy til they've complicated the hell out of things that need to be simple and fast, and simplified the things that needed to be complicated and have lots of optionsAug 11 13:54
oiaohmDriver level under DRI Diablo-D3Aug 11 13:54
DaemonFCit's quite scaryAug 11 13:54
Diablo-D3oiaohm: no, I mean, they're doing itAug 11 13:54
Diablo-D3which is really neatAug 11 13:54
DaemonFCyou hardly ever see people on FreeBSD using GNOMEAug 11 13:54
Ngyou hardly ever see people on freebsd at all ;)Aug 11 13:54
Diablo-D3fbsd on the desktop is really rareAug 11 13:54
DaemonFCmore people use Macs than LinuxAug 11 13:54
DaemonFCgo use thatAug 11 13:54
Diablo-D3I wouldnt mind dragonflybsd on the desktop thoughAug 11 13:54
Diablo-D3DaemonFC: not trueAug 11 13:55
DaemonFCor more people use Windows than MacsAug 11 13:55
DaemonFCso that has to be correct, obviouslyAug 11 13:55
oiaohmDepends what country DaemonFCAug 11 13:55
Diablo-D3worldwide, there are now as many linux desktop users as osx usersAug 11 13:55
**** BEGIN LOGGING AT Tue Aug 11 14:00:41 2009
oiaohmDriver level under DRI Diablo-D3Aug 11 13:35
DaemonFCit's quite scaryAug 11 13:35
Diablo-D3oiaohm: no, I mean, they're doing itAug 11 13:36
Diablo-D3which is really neatAug 11 13:36
DaemonFCyou hardly ever see people on FreeBSD using GNOMEAug 11 13:36
Ngyou hardly ever see people on freebsd at all ;)Aug 11 13:36
Diablo-D3fbsd on the desktop is really rareAug 11 13:36
DaemonFCmore people use Macs than LinuxAug 11 13:36
DaemonFCgo use thatAug 11 13:36
Diablo-D3I wouldnt mind dragonflybsd on the desktop thoughAug 11 13:36
Diablo-D3DaemonFC: not trueAug 11 13:36
DaemonFCor more people use Windows than MacsAug 11 13:36
DaemonFCso that has to be correct, obviouslyAug 11 13:36
oiaohmDepends what country DaemonFCAug 11 13:36
Diablo-D3worldwide, there are now as many linux desktop users as osx usersAug 11 13:37
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Diablo-D3about 25% or so of the desktop market is not windowsAug 11 13:37
oiaohmThere are countries where Linux usage is more dominate than windows and mac.Aug 11 13:37
DaemonFCif you want to base your argument for Linux on how many people use it, well, it's a fallacious argumentAug 11 13:37
Diablo-D3I dont get the game marketAug 11 13:37
oiaohmDaemonFC:  you started off claiming a difference now you trying to use market percentage to avoid mistake.Aug 11 13:38
Diablo-D3its damned easy to write a portable game that works on all three platformsAug 11 13:38
Diablo-D3why would anyone give up 25% of their profitsAug 11 13:38
DaemonFCbecause it's more like 88% WindowsAug 11 13:38
oiaohmSimple fact the complete distributions idea is wrong.Aug 11 13:38
DaemonFC1% LinuxAug 11 13:38
DaemonFCrest is MacsAug 11 13:38
oiaohmAgain wrong DaemonFCAug 11 13:38
Diablo-D3DaemonFC: please stop doing drugsAug 11 13:38
Diablo-D3its not healthy.Aug 11 13:38
oiaohmCorrect for the USA DaemonFCAug 11 13:38
DaemonFC1% Linux is the most generous estimate givenAug 11 13:38
oiaohmNot correct for the rest of world DaemonFCAug 11 13:39
DaemonFCthat I've ever seenAug 11 13:39
Diablo-D3and if I took my website stats, about 50% of the public uses linux, the other half are windowsAug 11 13:39
oiaohmWhere are you DaemonFCAug 11 13:39
Diablo-D3and some stray osx users in thereAug 11 13:39
DaemonFCso we'll round to a whole percentAug 11 13:39
oiaohmUSAAug 11 13:39
oiaohmSo exactly the percent you should be seeing.Aug 11 13:39
oiaohmSorry USA is not the world.Aug 11 13:39
Diablo-D3oh, and while we're on my website's statistics.... over 80% use firefox :DAug 11 13:39
DaemonFC 11 13:39
DaemonFCLinux is 1.15% according to the helpful Wikipedia Pie ChartAug 11 13:39
oiaohmHow do you measure how much Linux is out there.Aug 11 13:40
Diablo-D3but does it quote where the stats came from or what year?Aug 11 13:40
Diablo-D3oiaohm: Im pretty sure google could tell youAug 11 13:40
Diablo-D3but they wontAug 11 13:40
DaemonFC 11 13:40
DaemonFCJuly 2009Aug 11 13:40
DaemonFCWindows 2000 alone has a bigger sliver than LinuxAug 11 13:40
DaemonFCXP is Pac ManAug 11 13:41
Diablo-D3DaemonFC: can I have some of those drugs?Aug 11 13:41
DaemonFCand Vista is in there tooAug 11 13:41
DaemonFCOS X has about 1/3rd the share of VistaAug 11 13:41
DaemonFCand Linux has about 1/6th of OS XAug 11 13:41
oiaohmHow many sites exist that only work if you use a Windows usage agent string DaemonFCAug 11 13:42
oiaohmThere are a lot.Aug 11 13:42
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DaemonFCwell, people always quote Wikipedia until it betrays themAug 11 13:42
DaemonFCI supposeAug 11 13:42
*Now talking on #boycottnovellAug 11 14:00
*Topic for #boycottnovell is: Communication about anything, including Microsoft, Novell, and Free software [publicly logged]Aug 11 14:00
*Topic for #boycottnovell set by schestowitz at Fri Jun 12 17:24:05 2009Aug 11 14:00
-ChanServ-[#boycottnovell] Welcome to the #boycottnovell channelAug 11 14:00
DaemonFCwell, people always quote Wikipedia until it betrays themAug 11 14:01
DaemonFCI supposeAug 11 14:01
*ChanServ gives channel operator status to schestowitzAug 11 14:01
oiaohmAll measurement systems are measuring something a browser could be lieing about DaemonFCAug 11 14:01
DaemonFCweb browsers do not always provide accurate information to web servers.Aug 11 14:01
oiaohmNo one is likely to lie on a windows machine that they are using Linux.Aug 11 14:01
DaemonFCthat's item 1 in their list of things that could affect resultsAug 11 14:01
DaemonFCI doubt it's going to massively alter thingsAug 11 14:02
oiaohmYet Linux and Mac users are likely to be lieing to being running windows to access sites.Aug 11 14:02
oiaohmSo you would say a min of that percent for Linux.Aug 11 14:02
DaemonFCand that's a site preference in any decent browserAug 11 14:02
DaemonFCnot a global oneAug 11 14:02
oiaohmAnd a max of that percent for windows.Aug 11 14:02
oiaohmuser changing user agent will forget to change it back from time to time.Aug 11 14:02
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DaemonFCthat's why in Opera and Konqueror, it's a site prefAug 11 14:03
DaemonFCnot a global prefAug 11 14:03
oiaohmI have run for 4 months with my browser saying I was IE 6 on XP on iceweasel running on Linux until a site did not work right.Aug 11 14:03
oiaohmand I become aware of the issue.Aug 11 14:03
oiaohmI would not be alone in that error DaemonFCAug 11 14:04
DaemonFCand to answer our question, no company would jsut leave 25% of their revenue potential on the tableAug 11 14:04
DaemonFCand none of them do ;)Aug 11 14:04
DaemonFCthe computer software market is a fickle thing, and even growing a couple percent in sales year over year is a good thingAug 11 14:04
DaemonFCit's just like retailAug 11 14:05
oiaohmMac OS and Windows you can get good numbers on there percentages from sales and projected lifespans of hardware.Aug 11 14:05
oiaohmDue to Linux and BSD not having a good OEM stream it basically not countable.Aug 11 14:05
DaemonFCI think it isAug 11 14:05
DaemonFCdenial is what happens when the facts don't support youAug 11 14:06
oiaohmTruth lies and statistics.Aug 11 14:06
oiaohmAll statistics show some truth and some lies.Aug 11 14:06
oiaohmKey questions is how dependable is the information collection.Aug 11 14:07
DaemonFCI find it odd that you can't even give something awayAug 11 14:07
DaemonFCI think it has to do with perceived value at the price point of freeAug 11 14:07
oiaohmYou can only give away items that work.Aug 11 14:08
oiaohmOr are marketed well.Aug 11 14:08
DaemonFCpeople have the idea that if you're giving it away it must not be worth anythingAug 11 14:08
oiaohmThat is wrong.Aug 11 14:08
DaemonFCFirefox has some strong word of mouthAug 11 14:08
DaemonFCOpera doesn'tAug 11 14:08
oiaohmYou try giving away some money on a street looking suspect.Aug 11 14:09
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oiaohmMost people will not take it.Aug 11 14:09
oiaohmYet put a crappy stick in a fancy bag and thousands of people will take them without questioning.Aug 11 14:09
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oiaohmThe power of marketing.Aug 11 14:09
oiaohmEvery wonder why video card companies spend so much money printing there boxes and make them so large DaemonFCAug 11 14:10
oiaohmThey could ship more cards out if there boxs were smaller.Aug 11 14:11
oiaohmFirefox has had good marketing.Aug 11 14:11
oiaohmFirefox secret is that is logo creature is cute.Aug 11 14:13
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] How the Attacks on Sites Like Twitter Can Help Promote Free Software 11 14:15
DaemonFCheh, they have the XBOX 360 version of Red Alert 3 marked down to $9.99 on NeweggAug 11 14:16
DaemonFCI played the demoAug 11 14:16
DaemonFCthe controller scheme is impossible without a mouse and keyboardAug 11 14:16
oiaohmDon't worry MS can always upgread the Xbox 360 so no game you aquired works.Aug 11 14:17
DaemonFCno they can'tAug 11 14:17
DaemonFCthe games are on DVDAug 11 14:17
DaemonFChow do you disable those?Aug 11 14:18
oiaohmChange the xbox 360 crypt key.Aug 11 14:18
oiaohmSo making the DVD disks worthless.Aug 11 14:18
oiaohmSince everything is encrypted.Aug 11 14:18
DaemonFCthey wouldn'tAug 11 14:18
oiaohmThe means to do so exists in the device.Aug 11 14:19
oiaohmNote I said they always can DaemonFC.  Not that they would.Aug 11 14:20
DaemonFCdoing so would be some wickedly bad PRAug 11 14:20
DaemonFCand probably hurt salesAug 11 14:20
DaemonFCso why would they?Aug 11 14:20
oiaohmYou are really in the same boat as people who aquired MS DRM protected music that has been left out in the cold.Aug 11 14:21
DaemonFCno I'm notAug 11 14:21
oiaohmYou are.Aug 11 14:21
DaemonFCI've never had an XBOX game magically stop workingAug 11 14:21
DaemonFCnor any other console gamesAug 11 14:21
oiaohmIf the decided to end the XBox line they could do anything.Aug 11 14:21
oiaohmtheyAug 11 14:21
DaemonFCwrongAug 11 14:21
DaemonFCpeople would just write emulation softwareAug 11 14:21
DaemonFCbeen done for every other console eventuallyAug 11 14:22
oiaohmYou are living in dream land there DaemonFCAug 11 14:24
DaemonFCno, history has proven that emulation software will eventually be outAug 11 14:25
DaemonFCjust like for every other console, including the original XBOXAug 11 14:25
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oiaohmoriginal xbox did not use encryption DaemonFCAug 11 14:25
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oiaohmIt just used signing.Aug 11 14:25
oiaohmSame with all the other devices you are refering to DaemonFCAug 11 14:26
oiaohmEven if you could make a xbox360 emulator it would have the same illegal issues in the USA as playing particular forms of protected media on Linux has.Aug 11 14:27
oiaohmSo you are living in dream land if you think you are going to be able to get your hands on a xbox360 emulator.Aug 11 14:28
DaemonFCso?Aug 11 14:29
DaemonFCI don't care if it's unlicensedAug 11 14:29
DaemonFCI own the gamesAug 11 14:29
oiaohmLOLAug 11 14:29
oiaohmYou are licenced to use the games on a xbox 360 you don't as such own them.Aug 11 14:30
oiaohmPeople have mixed up the major difference between be licenced to use and ownership.Aug 11 14:31
Balroghello everyoneAug 11 14:37
Balrogoiaohm: changing the xbox 360 crypt key would be extremely bad PRAug 11 14:38
Balrognintendo hasn't done itAug 11 14:38
Balrogthey've used different keys in new markets (Korea, for example)Aug 11 14:38
Balrogbut they won't break compatibilityAug 11 14:38
oiaohmNintendo does not use full program encryption.   So break compatibility equals emulators and clones.Aug 11 14:39
Balrogoiaohm: what do you mean 'full program encryption' ?Aug 11 14:39
Balrogthe wii has full disc encryptionAug 11 14:40
Balrog(and signing, but that's another story)Aug 11 14:40
oiaohmwii does not require all disks encrypted.Aug 11 14:43
oiaohmOperational requirement is just signed.Aug 11 14:43
oiaohmxbox 360 operational requirement is encrypted.Aug 11 14:44
Balrogoiaohm: afaik it requires disks to be encryptedAug 11 14:44
Balrogbut they use symmetric key encryptionAug 11 14:44
Balrogso once you have the key, you can decrypt OR encryptAug 11 14:44
Balrogthe gamecube didn't do this encryption; it just had special non-standard discsAug 11 14:44
oiaohmLook at some of the wii demo disks.   Non encrypted option exists in wii just in case at some point someone was wanting to release a mxied disk of demos.  Note its a different signing key.Aug 11 14:46
oiaohmnitendo does think ahead.Aug 11 14:47
Balrogoiaohm: you mean the demo systems they give out to reviewers?Aug 11 14:47
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] Microsoft Hostility Towards XML Expands to Hostility Towards HTML 11 14:47
Balrogthose simply use a different set of keysAug 11 14:47
oiaohmIt something that was designed in rarely used.  Mag demos.Aug 11 14:47
Balrogoiaohm: nintendo does think ahead?!? just read 11 14:48
Balrogoiaohm: link?Aug 11 14:48
oiaohmWii development kit.Aug 11 14:48
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Balroghave you worked with it directly? Because from what I know the real devkit is a big black boxAug 11 14:49
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Balrogthe green and red faceplate Wiis are just special consoles with a different drive and keys for the green one, and a hard drive for the red oneAug 11 14:49
oiaohmIt includes a list of different forms of programs you can order when you want them signed or encypted for sale.Aug 11 14:49
oiaohmyes there is a non encrypted.Aug 11 14:50
Balrogbut all have to be signed...?Aug 11 14:50
oiaohmAll have to be signed to run.Aug 11 14:51
oiaohmThat is the one thing set in stone.Aug 11 14:51
Balrogand nintendo has full, exclusive control of the regular signing keys?Aug 11 14:51
Balrog(not the developer signing keys)Aug 11 14:52
oiaohmYep.Aug 11 14:52
Balrogyeah. So we need exploits to get throughAug 11 14:52
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**** BEGIN LOGGING AT Tue Aug 11 15:05:51 2009
Balrogthe gamecube didn't do this encryption; it just had special non-standard discsAug 11 14:26
oiaohmLook at some of the wii demo disks.   Non encrypted option exists in wii just in case at some point someone was wanting to release a mxied disk of demos.  Note its a different signing key.Aug 11 14:28
oiaohmnitendo does think ahead.Aug 11 14:28
Balrogoiaohm: you mean the demo systems they give out to reviewers?Aug 11 14:28
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] Microsoft Hostility Towards XML Expands to Hostility Towards HTML 11 14:28
Balrogthose simply use a different set of keysAug 11 14:28
oiaohmIt something that was designed in rarely used.  Mag demos.Aug 11 14:29
Balrogoiaohm: nintendo does think ahead?!? just read 11 14:29
Balrogoiaohm: link?Aug 11 14:29
oiaohmWii development kit.Aug 11 14:30
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Balroghave you worked with it directly? Because from what I know the real devkit is a big black boxAug 11 14:30
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Balrogthe green and red faceplate Wiis are just special consoles with a different drive and keys for the green one, and a hard drive for the red oneAug 11 14:31
oiaohmIt includes a list of different forms of programs you can order when you want them signed or encypted for sale.Aug 11 14:31
oiaohmyes there is a non encrypted.Aug 11 14:31
Balrogbut all have to be signed...?Aug 11 14:32
oiaohmAll have to be signed to run.Aug 11 14:33
oiaohmThat is the one thing set in stone.Aug 11 14:33
Balrogand nintendo has full, exclusive control of the regular signing keys?Aug 11 14:33
Balrog(not the developer signing keys)Aug 11 14:33
oiaohmYep.Aug 11 14:33
Balrogyeah. So we need exploits to get throughAug 11 14:34
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Balroglike the really stupid one that relied on strncmp() to compare hashesAug 11 14:34
oiaohmThe encryption is not heavy to start off with.   It was more to stop ripping of music and the like allowing developers to licence music and the like cheaper.Aug 11 14:34
oiaohmin the wiiAug 11 14:35
Balrogand probably to slow down reverse engineeringAug 11 14:35
Balrogwhich it did doAug 11 14:35
oiaohmxbox360 were even stand alone binaries have to be encrypted.Aug 11 14:35
oiaohmThen everything is kept encrypted in ram.Aug 11 14:36
Balrogwow.Aug 11 14:36
oiaohmLot of hardware is not doing game releated things in a xbox 360.Aug 11 14:36
Balrognintendo left keys floating around in RAM which allowed the keys to be capturedAug 11 14:36
Balrogbut the signing key is still unknown :(Aug 11 14:36
oiaohmnintendo encrytion does enough to make it illegal to rip stuff you should not.Aug 11 14:37
Balrogin some countriesAug 11 14:37
oiaohmBut not enough to prevent future emulation.Aug 11 14:37
Balrogit does not prevent piracy one bitAug 11 14:38
Balrog(of games)Aug 11 14:38
oiaohmOf course nintendo knew that was impossiable.Aug 11 14:38
oiaohmPerson can always just raw copy disks.   So piracy would always exist no matter what they did.Aug 11 14:38
Balrogps3 piracy isn't taking place, though ... afaikAug 11 14:39
Balrogoiaohm: raw copy isn't enoughAug 11 14:39
Balroga drivechip is also necessaryAug 11 14:39
Balrogthe discs are non-standardAug 11 14:39
oiaohmDepends what you are raw coping with.Aug 11 14:39
BalrogexplainAug 11 14:39
oiaohmIf you are raw coping with a disk mil you can produce any type of disk you want.Aug 11 14:40
oiaohmMost you could hope to do is prevent back yarders from doing it.Aug 11 14:40
Balrogwell trueAug 11 14:40
Balroglook at what Datel does (they have a press that can make GC/Wii discs)Aug 11 14:40
Balrogfor their Action Replay and Freeloader devicesAug 11 14:40
Balrogdisc mils are hard to get and expensive thoughAug 11 14:41
oiaohmJust like saying no one would fake CPU's because cpu production gear is expensive.Aug 11 14:41
twitterBarlog, please quit feeding the trolls.  I clutters things up.Aug 11 14:41
twitter*itAug 11 14:42
Balrogtwitter: feeding the trolls???Aug 11 14:42
oiaohmorganised crime causes a huge batches of fake intel at times.Aug 11 14:42
twitterYou seem to be arguing with people.  asking them to explain, asking for links, etc.Aug 11 14:42
BalrogI want to learn a bitAug 11 14:43
BalrogI've been watching this area for a while nowAug 11 14:43
Balrog(meaning video game protection and the like)Aug 11 14:43
twitteryou should watch what people like oiaohm tell you.Aug 11 14:43
twitterit's better to be ignorant than spunAug 11 14:44
Balrogtwitter: don't think I'm believing everything he saysAug 11 14:44
BalrogI know raw copying discs with a press is impractical to say the leastAug 11 14:44
twitterIf you don't believe what he says, why bother asking?Aug 11 14:45
oiaohmIt is impractical while home users can do it so cheap.Aug 11 14:46
oiaohmIts the problem with making it too impossable for home users sooner or latter you risk making it profitable for organsised crime to do it.Aug 11 14:46
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Balrogoiaohm: the other thing is that Bluray discs are still expensiveAug 11 14:50
*Now talking on #boycottnovellAug 11 15:05
*Topic for #boycottnovell is: Communication about anything, including Microsoft, Novell, and Free software [publicly logged]Aug 11 15:05
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Balrogoiaohm: the other thing is that Bluray discs are still expensiveAug 11 15:08
oiaohmThe blance at moment is a deterent to anyone doing it.Aug 11 15:09
oiaohmCrime or home user.Aug 11 15:09
Balrogyes.Aug 11 15:09
Balrogwhat do you think about the situation with the nintendo DS?Aug 11 15:10
oiaohmPush that blance too far one way or the other and it will become profitable.Aug 11 15:10
oiaohmSo the art to controling piracy is keeping the blance just in the right spot.Aug 11 15:10
oiaohmnintendo DS cartigrage protection was not a new method.Aug 11 15:12
oiaohmThere are some odd cartigrages for the gameboys that also use a releated methods.Aug 11 15:12
oiaohmReason for the old gameboys was to allow large game data than the gameboy could access directly.Aug 11 15:13
Balrogmeaning stuff like bankswitching?Aug 11 15:13
oiaohmIts releated to bankswitching.Aug 11 15:14
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oiaohmSo you cannot see all banks in the cartigage in the nintendo DS unless you send the right codes.Aug 11 15:15
Balrogahh.Aug 11 15:15
oiaohmIe each code opens up another block.Aug 11 15:15
oiaohmSo making them extreamly hard to dump.Aug 11 15:15
Balrogbut aren't those usually circumvented quickly?Aug 11 15:15
Balrogoiaohm: that's interesting ... dumping is typically extremely easyAug 11 15:15
Balrogthere's a tool that dumps a cartridge to an ftp server over wifiAug 11 15:16
oiaohmNow you are trying to run program and its expecting the same bank switching system.Aug 11 15:16
oiaohmIts kinda going to break.Aug 11 15:16
oiaohmSo now its become an extreamly hard game to copy because recoding is required.Aug 11 15:17
Balrogbut it has not stopped one bitAug 11 15:17
Balrogor even slowedAug 11 15:17
Balroghow do the flashcart manufacturers do that?Aug 11 15:18
oiaohmI was refering to the kind that are not copyable yet.Aug 11 15:19
Balrogare there any?Aug 11 15:19
oiaohmThere are a few.Aug 11 15:19
oiaohmBank switching is one of the few copy protection systems that is a true pain in but to work around.Aug 11 15:20
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neighborleehi peeps, anything new ;0-0Aug 11 17:05
_Hicham_hi neighborleeAug 11 17:08
neighborlee:)Aug 11 17:08
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wallclimberThis morning's BN article about Windows computers and botnets had two comments, one from twitter and one from Charles OliverAug 11 17:17
wallclimberCharles Oliver contends that, rather than botnets being a reason to ban infected Windows computers, Apache should be looked at instead.Aug 11 17:17
MinceRlolAug 11 17:17
MinceRwell, just wait until m$ completes its acquisition of apache.Aug 11 17:18
wallclimberthere were no further comments in response.  I'm sure what he was doing was misdirecting the issue, but in what way is he wrongAug 11 17:18
wallclimber?Aug 11 17:18
balzacwell, open source people were pretty enthralled with being revolutionistasAug 11 17:18
balzacbut then they thought about all that Microsoft cashAug 11 17:19
balzacwe'll see what happens to the parts of the LAMP stack that Sun didn't getAug 11 17:19
balzacthe A & the PAug 11 17:19
balzacThe Linus kernel has been getting pretty friendly with M$ as wellAug 11 17:20
MinceRyes, m$ has bought their way into that tooAug 11 17:20
balzacPHP went from GPL to an open source license, making PHP more attractive to M$Aug 11 17:20
MinceRi guess it's time to start really working on hurdAug 11 17:20
balzacmight as well, just for the advanced functionalityAug 11 17:21
MinceRthat tooAug 11 17:21
MinceRbut also for what happens when they kill linux (the kernel)Aug 11 17:21
balzaci don't see that happeningAug 11 17:21
wallclimberMinceR, is killing the Linux kernal really possible?Aug 11 17:22
MinceRi'm not sureAug 11 17:22
balzacthey're keeping it effectively marginalized on consumer systemsAug 11 17:22
MinceRbut i'd rather not risk itAug 11 17:22
balzacby making sure it's a bumpy ride for rich mediaAug 11 17:22
wallclimberpatents?Aug 11 17:22
MinceRwe've seen them successfully push a patch that had no engineering reason to be thereAug 11 17:22
balzacpatents are stupidAug 11 17:22
balzacsoftware patents can be ignoredAug 11 17:22
MinceRand their puppet, gregkh, even had the audacity to rave about how great the patch isAug 11 17:23
balzacI'll be happy to follow Gandhi's example of civil disobedience on resisting software patents for fun and profitAug 11 17:23
MinceRbalzac: only once the courts and the USPTO get their shit together and start doing their job properlyAug 11 17:23
balzacpure drivelAug 11 17:23
wallclimberafter patents, what's the next biggest threat?Aug 11 17:23
balzacmoney used to divide and cooptAug 11 17:24
MinceRwell, i wonder if m$, after becoming one of the copyright holders, will become able to sue people on some GPL-related technicality from now onAug 11 17:24
MinceRand what balzac saidAug 11 17:24
MinceRalso, influence over key peopleAug 11 17:24
MinceRcorrupting them via moneyAug 11 17:24
MinceRand other meansAug 11 17:24
balzacmoney used to buy favorable coverageAug 11 17:24
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[davidgerard] Holy crap. If GM can pull this one off ... 11 17:24
balzacand to indefinitely deny the moment of triumphAug 11 17:25
balzacso we can't say "i told you so" from the decks of our own yachtsAug 11 17:25
balzacno, they can't stop changeAug 11 17:25
MinceRvictory on our side doesn't automatically mean possessing yachts.Aug 11 17:26
balzacyou can see the desperation when MS advocates characterize free software activists and enthusiasts as some new kind of terroristAug 11 17:26
balzacthat's pure desperationAug 11 17:26
balzacMinceR: for me it doesAug 11 17:26
balzacI'm positioning myself for a yachtAug 11 17:26
MinceRi'm positioning myself for a lot moreAug 11 17:27
wallclimberthe thing is, Microsoft can only keep buying people for so long, they may not run totally out of money, but it will eventually drain the coffers beyond good sense, if they continueAug 11 17:27
MinceRbut that's a different goal from saving the world from m$Aug 11 17:27
balzacpart of that strategy was bonking you for being too harsh on BallmerAug 11 17:27
MinceRit's impossible to be too harsh on ballmerAug 11 17:27
balzacsee, I don't attack the personalities, I attack their actionsAug 11 17:27
MinceRi attack bothAug 11 17:27
MinceRthey're closely relatedAug 11 17:27
wallclimberabsolutely impossible!Aug 11 17:27
wallclimber(to be too harsh on Ballmer and his antics)Aug 11 17:28
balzacballmer is actually funny to meAug 11 17:29
balzacthe screeching and hopping aroundAug 11 17:29
MinceRhe'd be funnier if he had no powerAug 11 17:29
wallclimberhe gives me the creepsAug 11 17:29
MinceRas he is now, he keeps doing lots of damageAug 11 17:29
balzacwell, i don't hate him or bill gatesAug 11 17:29
MinceRperhaps he should be caged and shown to people for amusementAug 11 17:29
balzaci intend to get revenue from their monopolyAug 11 17:29
balzacfor myselfAug 11 17:30
wallclimberif MS keeps losing money, won't they kick Ballmer out?  Soon, i hope...Aug 11 17:30
balzacand not by compromising my principles eitherAug 11 17:30
MinceRwallclimber: and they'll pull out the next monster from the closetAug 11 17:30
wallclimberBalzac, I don't hate him either, but i do think he's revoltingAug 11 17:31
wallclimberMinceR, how many MS monsters can there be left?  Haven't they all left for government appointments by now (just kidding)Aug 11 17:32
balzache acts like a jerkAug 11 17:32
wallclimbersort of kidding, actuallyAug 11 17:32
MinceRmost human beings are easily turned into oneAug 11 17:32
wallclimberi don't think it's an actAug 11 17:32
wallclimberhe does come off as being more than a little desperate lately...Aug 11 17:33's ringing...time to get back to work.  Thanks for the chat!Aug 11 17:37
wallclimber:o)Aug 11 17:37
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-BNc/#boycottnovell-[_goblin] REVIEW: PCLinuxOS 2009.2 - By Chips on Openbytes! #linux #foss #distroAug 11 18:21
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-BNc/#boycottnovell-[davidgerard] NotN: Dannii Minogue quits Botox in favour of 240 volts 11 18:22
schestowitzHey, _goblin Aug 11 18:26
_goblinhiAug 11 18:26
schestowitzDoes Openbytes do guest posts now?Aug 11 18:32
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] Bill Gates — Like Microsoft’s Chief Financial Officer — Dumps MSFT 11 18:33
schestowitzMicrosoft Hostility Towards XML Expands to Hostility Towards HTML 11 18:34
schestowitzShould we debunk the GPL FUD from IDG? It is possible to show how they daemonise RMS re: attempts to contact him. It's better not to draw attention to it, IMHO, but we have time to flag that either wayAug 11 18:35
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[davidgerard] bill gates assures you that he is COMPLETELY CONFIDENT about MSFT's future and just liked the number "7" 11 18:41
neighborleewoahAug 11 18:59
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-BNc/#boycottnovell-[trmanco] Updating Rockbox on my iPodAug 11 19:11
*amarsh04__ is now known as amarsh04Aug 11 19:12
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_goblinschestowitz: I am hoping Chips will contribute and help (joint ownership)Aug 11 19:50
_goblinis Twitter down again?Aug 11 19:51
*_goblin is now known as _GoblinAug 11 19:51
schestowitz_Goblin: seems dodgyAug 11 19:52
schestowitzThe API is on and offAug 11 19:52
schestowitzThank Windows zombiesAug 11 19:52
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[_goblin] FEATURE: A look at URL shrinking 11 19:56
_Goblinrunning the latest build of Chromium .201Aug 11 19:56
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[_goblin] Just recieved #Chromium build - Been with the project for many builds. Great work! #linux #fossAug 11 19:58
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] Did Microsoft Also Poison Yahoo’s Free Software? 11 20:02
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-BNc/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] Patents Roundup: Britannica Loses, SpinVox Shamed, FFII Updated, and More 11 20:14
tessier__schestowitz: Something going on with the server? I see a lot more processes than normal, many of which are defunctAug 11 20:15
tessier__Hmm...seems the number of processes has been building up for quite a while. Not sure why there are so many sh and ifconfig and whoami processes running but it is odd.Aug 11 20:19
Balroghello everyoneAug 11 20:19
Balrogschestowitz and _Goblin: twitter API has been acting up for a whileAug 11 20:20
tessier__Ah. Mystery solved. It's puppetd.Aug 11 20:21
tessier__It's cool when monitoring works. This box normally has around 100 processes running on it. Today it hit 400 and nagios paged me. I looked at the munin graph and saw the process count has been climbing for weeks.Aug 11 20:23
Balrogfacebook is not in the best shape either :(Aug 11 20:33
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[trmanco] RT @mashable BORN AGAIN: Comes Back From the Dead 11 20:40 id backAug 11 20:40
schestowitztessier: yes, I noticed it some days agoAug 11 20:40
schestowitzBrought it up here, but no ideas as to what caused itAug 11 20:41
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] Microsoft Migrations Without Approval 11 20:41
schestowitztessier: oh, I see... puppetdAug 11 20:41
schestowitzI'm catching up :-)Aug 11 20:41
schestowitztessier: let me know when you want your ads up. Also, if you give me your paypal account I'll pass all the Ad Bard revenue to that (only about $20/month)Aug 11 20:42
tessier__schestowitz: Ok, will do.Aug 11 20:46
thenixedreportI'm learning how GnuCash works.Aug 11 20:50
schestowitzVMware vs Red Hat? 11 20:51
schestowitzthenixedreport: it's not proprietary, therefore the GUI must suck suck suck!! /sarcasmAug 11 20:51
thenixedreportlolAug 11 20:51
thenixedreportI'm not familiar with personal finance software, so either way....Aug 11 20:52
thenixedreportI need to read the documentation that comes with it.Aug 11 20:52
thenixedreportI'm also about to get a netbook in the mail (in a day or two).Aug 11 20:52
thenixedreportSo....Aug 11 20:52
thenixedreportI'll be trying to install CentOS onto it as well.Aug 11 20:52
thenixedreportAnd writing up documentation on how to do it.Aug 11 20:52
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_Goblinlets see if John Oberto rises to my challenge in respect of his Google article...Aug 11 20:54
_Goblincomment is awaiting moderation - no surprise there.Aug 11 20:54
schestowitz SYSSTAT Howto: A Deployment and Configuration Guide for Linux Servers < >Aug 11 20:54
schestowitzthenixedreport: debunk CaitlynAug 11 20:54
schestowitzBring the dignity to CentOSAug 11 20:54
schestowitz_Goblin: is Obeto attacking Google now?Aug 11 20:55
schestowitzThe Microsoft TE (like Jon Wong) love doing thisAug 11 20:55
_Goblinnot really...a weak baseless article on why you shouldnt choose Google, Ive called him out on it to be specificAug 11 20:55
_Goblinlets see if he will elaborate on his generalizationsAug 11 20:56
_Goblinmy guess is he wont.Aug 11 20:56
_Goblinbut looking at some of his other "work" he does have a bit of a potty mouth.Aug 11 20:56
_Goblinso hopefully he will take the insulting route.....Aug 11 20:57
schestowitzResponses to GPL FUD:Aug 11 20:58
schestowitz 11 20:58
schestowitz"It seems like RMS did a better job of summing up the author's point than 4 pages of writing ever could. " 11 20:58
schestowitz"Editor's note: InfoWorld tried to interview Richard Stallman, who runs the Free Software Foundation that created and manages the GPL, on this issue, but he demanded control of what we published, so we declined."Aug 11 20:59
schestowitzzoobab01: 11 21:04
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schestowitz /. goes with a silly headline: 11 21:10
schestowitzwallclimber: I've just made a long post with testimoniesAug 11 21:11
schestowitzI look forward to Comes :-)Aug 11 21:11
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wallclimberi'm've added a lot since i checked earlier this morningAug 11 21:12
wallclimberi apologize for not getting the most recent Comes pdf finished.  life's (and work) been a bit overwhelming this monthAug 11 21:13
schestowitzWhen choice is bad: The OpenOffice ribbon < >Aug 11 21:14
schestowitzwallclimber: been a hectic dauAug 11 21:14
schestowitz*dayAug 11 21:14
schestowitzBTW, how's cday?Aug 11 21:14
wallclimberyes, it has been here too...Aug 11 21:14
schestowitzI caught up at 6Aug 11 21:15
wallclimbershe's doing great, they are building a house in the mountainsAug 11 21:15
schestowitzNice.Aug 11 21:15
schestowitzTower of Hanoi.Aug 11 21:15
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[trmanco] Devo ter batido hoje recorde de pessoas online hoje usando o IM da GoogleAug 11 21:16
schestowitzFar away fromt he fumes and the malice of modern 'civil'isaton :-pAug 11 21:16
schestowitzSony admits to failing Nvidia chips 13 months late < > Wonderful. Mine still survives.Aug 11 21:17
wallclimberyes.  i am hopeful they will have better connectivity soon.  i need her to start work againAug 11 21:17
Diablo-D3schestowitz: you know whats really bad? supercooling them dont helpAug 11 21:17
Diablo-D3and its a thermal issueAug 11 21:17
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schestowitzYes, it was never implied that there was a solutionAug 11 21:18
schestowitzHere's Twitter spewing bad packets again.Aug 11 21:18
Diablo-D3its double hitting laptops thoughAug 11 21:18
schestowitzLet's revive it..Aug 11 21:18
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schestowitzApple panics about broken Macbooks < >Aug 11 21:20
schestowitzGateway is coming back (the company0Aug 11 21:21
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MinceRWD > SeagateAug 11 21:23
thenixedreportDoesn't Acer own Gateway?Aug 11 21:23
schestowitzMaybe they bought em?Aug 11 21:39
schestowitzI can't remember for sure. Who bought Hewlett Packard?Aug 11 21:39
schestowitzOopsAug 11 21:39
schestowitzI mean..Aug 11 21:39
schestowitzPackard BellAug 11 21:40
schestowitzThat was round 2007Aug 11 21:40
schestowitzYay. The junk company known as Lenovo is thrown away. it was quite Linux hostile recently, so.....Aug 11 21:48
MinceRi hope IBM gets a clue and buys it backAug 11 21:50
schestowitz Manchester switch vendor gets $16m fundingAug 11 21:52
schestowitzIBM is huge... but huge and stupid... like a dinosaurAug 11 21:52
schestowitzThey tried to sell people a proprietary version of OOoAug 11 21:53
schestowitzSome bloat called Lotus Symphony. I hope they fail with it cause it's just a bad OOo ripoffAug 11 21:53
MinceRthey tried to sell that?Aug 11 21:53
schestowitzTo universities that they mass-mailedAug 11 21:54
schestowitzSome people in IBM were mailing about itAug 11 21:54
schestowitz"Buy from us.. we have software patents to protect you.. and a big blue shiny logo"Aug 11 21:55
MinceRughAug 11 21:55
schestowitzThe nearby recruiter seems to be out of business ("to Let")..... 11 21:56
schestowitzA lot of shops here replace their front window with planks of woodAug 11 21:56
schestowitzI guess it means it's not a good thing... :-SAug 11 21:57
schestowitzI might need to apply for a postdocAug 11 21:57
schestowitzI hate metaaccounts from Microsoft and Google is doing it tooo >:| 11 21:58
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schestowitzThere goes Twitter cr*pping out againAug 11 21:59
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thenixedreport 11 22:00
schestowitzby ryan kingAug 11 22:01
schestowitzI know him.....Aug 11 22:01
amarsh04hi schestowitz, finally have adsl stable... was overhead cabling between house and streetAug 11 22:09
schestowitzNice!Aug 11 22:09
schestowitzMust be countrysideAug 11 22:09
amarsh04patience with both the isp and the telco paid off... switched all hardware around and still heard crackles in the line so the telco kept at itAug 11 22:10
amarsh04some suburban cabling is overhead (insulated wires), some is undergroundAug 11 22:11
Balrogamarsh04: threatening them that you'll cut off service usually causes action :)Aug 11 22:11
schestowitzDepends whoAug 11 22:11
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schestowitzThe clerk won't mind (or support person)Aug 11 22:11
schestowitzThe management might. it has goals to meetAug 11 22:12
amarsh04no need... if you keep being nice and trying what they suggest, then it's harder for them to give upAug 11 22:12
schestowitzHow I know Twitter jumped the shark: 11 22:14
amarsh04interestingly, the problem became worse when not using the telephone on the same line... the extra current draw of the telephone in use seemed to reduce the noise on the lineAug 11 22:14
schestowitzAnother one: 11 22:14
amarsh04schestowitz, your recent posting reminds me of becoming more ms-dominatedAug 11 22:17
amarsh04good point about peoplesoft alsoAug 11 22:19
schestowitzamarsh04: yes, US/US/AU is like thatAug 11 22:19
schestowitzEurope goes the other way, AFAIKAug 11 22:19
schestowitzAnd the post describes the tacticsAug 11 22:19
schestowitzI thought it might be worth proposing for Linux Today, but had second thoughts cause it's more about Microsoft than about FL/OSS. Also, it took a long time getting these testimonies together, for future reference.Aug 11 22:20
amarsh04the searchable text of documents about ms attacking gnu/linux are worth forwarding to / groklaw.netAug 11 22:25
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schestowitzamarsh04: Groklaw has slown downAug 11 22:33
schestowitzI reckon PJ does other things now.Aug 11 22:33
amarsh04plus she hasn't been well the last couple of daysAug 11 22:34
schestowitzserver issuesAug 11 22:42
schestowitzIBM will need to send engineer to repair the robot named "PJ" ;-)Aug 11 22:43
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-BNc/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] How I know Twitter jumped the shark: 11 22:50
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[trmanco] ♺ @hfiguiere: ♺ @chrisblizzard: The Free Software Foundation endorses Dailymotion's new open video site: 11 22:50
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] The legal system is FINE! (Oprah can relax, $1 trillion lawsuit is dismissed)Aug 11 22:51
schestowitzHow's that work.. ? So Oprah maybe had 1 million viewers that day. And the chap wants compensation of $1,000,000 for each viewer?Aug 11 22:54
schestowitzMicrosoft wary of Linux threat < >Aug 11 22:58
schestowitz"Where was that Linux distro CD again? It is sounding a hell of a lot easier all of a sudden." 11 23:00
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] Look at Disinformation Week. They even promote the anti-Linux headline using a PRESS RELEASE. 11 23:05
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schestowitz" Posted by Alex Brown    " He does Linux servers now? :-pAug 11 23:12
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[_goblin] Its time I started getting my categories on the blog in some sort of order...they have been disorganized for far too long.Aug 11 23:17
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[trmanco] just voted "Pokerface" on "Best Song : Lady GaGa" vote too ➔ 11 23:22
schestowitzEric Lai is advertising his beloved Microsoft again (at Linux' expense even): 11 23:22
schestowitztrmanco: 11 23:23
trmancoschestowitz, you like that?Aug 11 23:24
schestowitzMusic's good. I don't like the singer.Aug 11 23:24
schestowitzit's a ripoff, tooAug 11 23:24
schestowitzSee if you get the reference.Aug 11 23:24
schestowitzAnother ripoff galore is Pussycat DollsAug 11 23:25
schestowitzBut they don't attributeAug 11 23:25
schestowitzMichael Jackson hires people to write his musicAug 11 23:26
schestowitzA lot of them are sort of phony musicians, many of whom can't write notesAug 11 23:26
schestowitzThere are the types like Alicia Keys that are the exception in the sense that they can be called musicinsAug 11 23:27
trmancobut that doesn't stop them from being popularAug 11 23:28
schestowitzVerizon Business to Help Federal Agencies Manage Security Risk, Insider Threats Company Adds New Capabilities to Its Already Robust Portfolio of Security Solutions < >Aug 11 23:28
schestowitztrmanco: of course not, it's teamworkAug 11 23:28
schestowitzMogul hires songwriter, grabs some gal/guy from a modeling agency, toss it together in some studio and then spends $1 marketing hoping for RoIAug 11 23:29
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schestowitzThey make music like some factories make soap. They mix ingredients, then create artificial wants, and ...(4) Profit!Aug 11 23:29
trmancoyeahAug 11 23:31
trmancoI get your pointAug 11 23:31
schestowitzhehe. "PremiumSoft" Sounds like some brand of toilet paperAug 11 23:32
schestowitztrmanco: artists often hate them. Some are more vocal than others (Radiohead for once)Aug 11 23:33
schestowitzPanasonic, NEC unveil 9 Linux phones < >Aug 11 23:33
schestowitzLots of good Linux news todayAug 11 23:33
schestowitz 11 23:33
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schestowitzWhat how Linus is used in Microsoft apologism: 11 23:41
schestowitzTakeways: Microsoft is good, Linus hater critics of Microsoft, Apple is evil. Signed, Microsoft fan.Aug 11 23:42
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[tracyrreed] If your computer gets a virus you MUST reinstall the operating system. No such thing as software which can "clean it up".Aug 11 23:54
schestowitzSensationalist: 11 23:55
schestowitz"The reason Soviet manufacturers delivered such rubbish was because they collaborated instead of competing. What may lead to Microsoft's demise is that it could end up being too small to compete with the seemingly endless supply of developer talent willing to contribute to Linux for free."Aug 11 23:55
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[davidgerard] #bing is a failure, or MSFT wouldn't be pulling stunts like 11 23:56
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] Ubuntu Netbook Remix gets an interface overhaul Look ma! No brown/orange.Aug 11 23:58

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