IRC: #boycottnovell @ FreeNode: September 1st, 2009

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Chips_B_MalroyIt would seem that M$ has now pulled out all the stops in its attacks on Google, could be this because of the fear of the impending GoogleOS?Sep 01 00:01
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] Opinion: Free Software Should be Used More 01 00:01
MinceRfear of their impending doomSep 01 00:02
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Chips_B_Malroyits more than just the advertising bucks in play here and the yahoo dealSep 01 00:02
Chips_B_MalroyMinceR> I hope soSep 01 00:02
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-BNc/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] New #BSD Variant Released, BSD-Licensed Debugger (D) is Out 01 00:05
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] Free (Libre) Business Intelligence is Catching on 01 00:06
Chips_B_MalroyThe "screw google" by M$ articles, get another from their shills at MS Watch 01 00:08
Chips_B_Malroyis it any wonder that Microsoft does this?   LOLSep 01 00:08
Chips_B_Malroyforget the ethics of doing so I guessSep 01 00:09
Chips_B_MalroyI hope Google will put their lawyers on this one, and maybe sue MSSep 01 00:11
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-BNc/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] OpenOffice 3.1.1 Officially Released Today, Can be Tested Online 01 00:12
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Chips_B_MalroyFor me, I decided that Wilcox was actually better informed than Nick.  Wilcox would occasionally respond in the comments when he had been painted into a corner, trying to escape.  Nick just doesn't seem to have much going for him beyond being a fanboy.Sep 01 00:16
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] Why GPL Licensing is a Sure Winner 01 00:16
oiaohmOk Chips_B_Malroy ok I know 10 Nick's and about 3 Wilcox's that are writers.   Now what ones are you refering to.Sep 01 00:17
oiaohmAnd 3 of the Wilcox's write about Microsoft stuff.Sep 01 00:18
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] DNA Follows the Free Software Route 01 00:19
Chips_B_Malroyoiaohm>  this one: 01 00:20
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] Jamaican Ministry of Education Urged to Consider GNU/Linux 01 00:20
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] Wikipedia Finds Method of Deterring Vandals 01 00:21
Chips_B_Malroyits actually one of his better articles, oiaohmSep 01 00:21
oiaohmRead author Chips_B_MalroySep 01 00:22
oiaohmI normally go by his last name.Sep 01 00:22
oiaohmSorry.Sep 01 00:22
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] DHS Vandalises Human Rights 01 00:22
oiaohmNicholas Kolakowski was entered into Microsoft watch to end the flaming a live.Sep 01 00:23
oiaohmIf you read Nicholas articals they are trying to remain blanced and fair to all sides.Sep 01 00:24
oiaohmwhen you have the hot topic of MS that is not simple.Sep 01 00:24
Chips_B_Malroyoiaohm> not sure I understand thatSep 01 00:24
Chips_B_Malroyend the flaming a liveSep 01 00:24
oiaohmWilcox quite litteraly got flamed to articals over 1000 comments long.Sep 01 00:25
Chips_B_Malroyagreed, its not that simpleSep 01 00:25
oiaohmWilcox made it worse by trying to post answer comments.Sep 01 00:25
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] Microsoft Front Group Wants to Cut Downloaders Off Web 01 00:25
Chips_B_Malroyand Ed Bott gets even longer commented articlesSep 01 00:26
oiaohmIe made mistake live with it is the safer path to avoid flames.Sep 01 00:26
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] AstroTurfers Galore: State of the Poor State 01 00:26
oiaohmWilcox was known for also posting incorrect stuff about non MS OS's.  That is why writer had to change.Sep 01 00:27
cubezzz-laptopI wonder how many journalists actually use Linux day to daySep 01 00:27
Chips_B_Malroythat or he started to fail to police the bad language in the comments and porn linksSep 01 00:27
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Chips_B_Malroyoiaohm> just a guess most writers use MacSep 01 00:28
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] MAFIAA Calls User Rights "Disgusting" to Push Intellectual Monopolies 01 00:28
oiaohmChips_B_Malroy: funny enough lot of writers don't use Windows Mac or Linux.Sep 01 00:29
oiaohmLot have like tandy wp3's and the like.   For simple portablity.Sep 01 00:29
oiaohmAnd simple aquirement of battiers.Sep 01 00:29
cubezzz-laptoptandy??Sep 01 00:29
oiaohmThey are machines with 8 line screen 80 char wide with a full keyboard that runs on 4 aa battiryes new ones of that class are still made today for writers cubezzz-laptopSep 01 00:30
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Chips_B_MalroyOiaohm:  wilcox was most likely fairer than Nick is, as proof:   " It hasn't been the greatest of mornings for Microsoft: first the scrappy folks at the Free Software Foundation decide to launch an attack on Windows 7, complete with Website and a letter-writing campaign to the CEOs of the Fortune 500, basically accusing Redmond's new operating system of everything sort of sacrificing infants to Moloch.  That's a reSep 01 00:31
oiaohmYes 100 percent non windows no mac non linux.Sep 01 00:31
Chips_B_Malroy 01 00:31
cubezzz-laptopoiaohm, you mean one of theses: 01 00:31
cubezzz-laptopprobably not that old :)Sep 01 00:32
oiaohmLike that cubezzz-laptop.  They are still modern day releations made.Sep 01 00:32
oiaohmWith like usb support and network support.Sep 01 00:32
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] Software Patents Seen as Totally Impractical, Studies Agree 01 00:32
cubezzz-laptopnot windows, mac or Linux, then what does it use?Sep 01 00:33
oiaohmCustom that produces text documents cubezzz-laptopSep 01 00:33
oiaohmEach one basically has there own OS.Sep 01 00:33
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] Skype for Windows Unsafe 01 00:33
oiaohmIn the past Chips_B_Malroy the black and white issues when they happened ie image editing never made microsoft-watch.Sep 01 00:35
oiaohmIf you go back threw history 2 of them happened in 2002.Sep 01 00:35
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] Another Epic Fail for Vista SP2 (Not Vista 7) 01 00:35
oiaohmcubezzz-laptop: its also battery live a TRS-80 Model 100 supprisingly has 16 hours our 4 aa batties.Sep 01 00:36
oiaohmSome of the more modern versions have 2 to 7 days out batteries great for field reporters.Sep 01 00:37
cubezzz-laptopoiaohm, what would be the modern equivalent to the TRS-80 Model 100?Sep 01 00:37
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] Microsoft Internet Explorer Shunned for Being Standards Incompetent 01 00:37
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] #ActiveX Causes Another Major Vulnerability 01 00:38
oiaohmI have not had to get a new one for a writer yet cubezzz-laptop.   I would have to ask the reporter I know who just got a new one what brand it even is.Sep 01 00:41
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] Apple Lets iPhones and iPods Just Keep Exploding 01 00:41
oiaohmIe last time I had to get one was 1993.  These kinds of hardware also last for god darn arges cubezzz-laptop.Sep 01 00:42
oiaohmNothing strange for them to be 10 to 15 years old and still in use.Sep 01 00:42
cubezzz-laptopimpressiveSep 01 00:42
schestowitzRadian6 is astroTurfingSep 01 00:43
schestowitzI know the nameSep 01 00:43
cubezzz-laptopone of my computers is 11 years old, still runs 24/7Sep 01 00:43
oiaohmRemember is the editor who has to run windows or mac not the reportors.Sep 01 00:43
oiaohmSince editor does the formating of the report.Sep 01 00:43
oiaohmNot the reporters.Sep 01 00:44
oiaohmText document + images in most cases is all the editor wants.Sep 01 00:44
oiaohmThere are companies out there that refurbish tandy wp3 still.  Software to transfer to windows machines including windows 7 is still mainatined even that it stoped production in 1993Sep 01 00:48
oiaohmReporters are some of the worst at keeping there hardware going.  It becomes a good luck charm to some of them.Sep 01 00:50
cubezzz-laptopor the best :)Sep 01 00:51
oiaohmEven after the item is run over by a tank they will sometime still ask if it can be repaired.Sep 01 00:51
oiaohmMost important thing to them is battery live.Sep 01 00:52
oiaohmwhen doing remote field work.Sep 01 00:52
oiaohmNone of the x86 laptops really cut it for remote work.Sep 01 00:53
cubezzz-laptopyeah it would be interesting to know which netbook or whatever had the best battery lifeSep 01 00:53
oiaohmpalm + addon keyboard has been popular with some.Sep 01 00:53
oiaohmSame thing huge battery lifeSep 01 00:53
oiaohmif the item cannot do about 16 hours for reporters its crap.Sep 01 00:54
oiaohmJust over 16 hours barely usable.Sep 01 00:54
oiaohmAlso since lot of reporters are touch typiest full size keyboard is a requirement.Sep 01 00:55
oiaohmOk full size screen no a requirement because they are not doing formating.Sep 01 00:55
cubezzz-laptopcommodore had a lcd device pretty early, not sure if it was ever releasedSep 01 00:56
oiaohmThere were reporters using them cubezzz-laptopSep 01 00:56
oiaohmCommodores motherboards broke down with age and transport.Sep 01 00:57
cubezzz-laptoppretty sure Toshiba had an lcd box as well... as far as I know there were very very few commodore lcd'sSep 01 00:58
oiaohmBreaking due to transport kinda made the not popular very quickly.,Sep 01 00:59
oiaohmToshiba one was tough.Sep 01 00:59
cubezzz-laptopthere's also a toughbook pda, expensive thoughSep 01 00:59
oiaohmWriters don't care on the expensive part that much.Sep 01 01:00
oiaohmA few stories will cover it.Sep 01 01:00
cubezzz-laptopjust make a solar-powered box or one with a hand crank :)Sep 01 01:02
oiaohmReporters already kinda do.  Peddle power.Sep 01 01:02
oiaohmThat way you can type and power the device.Sep 01 01:03
cubezzz-laptopOLPC had a crank I thinkSep 01 01:03
oiaohmNot any more.Sep 01 01:03
oiaohmThey have swaped over to the sane option of peddle power.Sep 01 01:03
Chips_B_Malroyits one of the reason I want an ARM netbookSep 01 01:03
oiaohmI really don't know where the insane hand crank came from.   In australia our out back radios still have peddle power option.Sep 01 01:04
oiaohmAll else fails you can peddle for it and send a message.Sep 01 01:04
cubezzz-laptopzaurus is ARM, battery life isn't too good thoughSep 01 01:04
Chips_B_Malroyalso, I figure less power consumption=less cpu heating=laptop that is cooler that can actually be held in the lap without frying oneselfSep 01 01:05
oiaohmDepends on what zaurus particular models had 24 hour battiery life.Sep 01 01:05
cubezzz-laptopI got a SL-5500, but the battery is very oldSep 01 01:05
oiaohmGet it repacked.Sep 01 01:05
oiaohmThe battery is shot.  That one should be 12 hours.Sep 01 01:06
*cubezzz-laptop nodsSep 01 01:06
oiaohmWith batteries of the dya.Sep 01 01:06
Chips_B_Malroyalso, less heat sometimes translates into realibility or longjevitySep 01 01:06
oiaohmRepacked with modern you can get 48 hours out of itSep 01 01:06
oiaohmOf course packed with modern required adding a new charaging circuit.Sep 01 01:07
oiaohmYes that is the other thing reporters are known for.Sep 01 01:07
cubezzz-laptopeven c64 had a bit of a heat problem, and that was only 1 mhz :)Sep 01 01:07
Chips_B_Malroyheat is a killer, just look at the XBox360 as an exampleSep 01 01:08
Chips_B_Malroynot to mention what it does in the lapSep 01 01:08
cubezzz-laptopenergy efficient designs are the futureSep 01 01:09
cubezzz-laptopsolar powered laptop could work maybeSep 01 01:10
oiaohmSome carry solar charging boxes.Sep 01 01:11
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oiaohmThey are more suitable because you can open them and stick them on roof rack of car / roof / where ever to charge while keeping laptop/notetaker cold.Sep 01 01:12
oiaohmYes the reporters travel gear is cool set of gear.Sep 01 01:12
cubezzz-laptopI guess if you go into aphganistan you need good battery life :)Sep 01 01:13
Chips_B_Malroyand spare batteries that can charge in external chargersSep 01 01:14
oiaohmWar zones you don't get to setup charging in a lot of locations.Sep 01 01:16
cubezzz-laptopthey could just use the car to charge it :)Sep 01 01:16
oiaohmDue to the fact it is a war zone.Sep 01 01:16
oiaohmCar warzone.Sep 01 01:16
cubezzz-laptopdefinitely use toughbook's for AphganistanSep 01 01:16
oiaohmYou want to be able to get out fast if you have to cubezzz-laptopSep 01 01:16
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cubezzz-laptopAfghanistan evenSep 01 01:18
cubezzz-laptopok, I just want to say... XP is a turdSep 01 01:18
cubezzz-laptopit's not much better than other versions of windowsSep 01 01:19
oiaohmVista ?Sep 01 01:19
oiaohmXP for stablity is worse than Windows 2000Sep 01 01:19
cubezzz-laptopit seems I'm always fixing windows crap-ups :-/Sep 01 01:19
oiaohmMS has been on a slow slide for a long time.Sep 01 01:19
oiaohmI don't have to touch Linux boxes.Sep 01 01:20
cubezzz-laptopI don't use it myself naturally, but my customers doSep 01 01:20
oiaohmI work setting up Linux servers.Sep 01 01:21
oiaohmMost of them once set I leave alone for years at time.Sep 01 01:21
oiaohmWhile taking in support contracts just in case they break.Sep 01 01:21
oiaohmWhat they basically don't do.Sep 01 01:21
Chips_B_MalroyI always get the same questions from windows users, "why is my computer running so slow, and why am I getting all these popups while not on the internet?"Sep 01 01:23
cubezzz-laptopI got a question too, "Why does windows have 90% market share when it's a turd?"Sep 01 01:24
oiaohmBecause Unix was not interested and Apple was expensive.Sep 01 01:25
oiaohmbasically MS had no competition to speak off.Sep 01 01:25
oiaohmdefacto standard.Sep 01 01:26
Chips_B_MalroyBoth were expensive, and Dos was around before the internet was consumer friendlySep 01 01:26
cubezzz-laptopwell there was Amiga, but Commodore borked up in 1994 :-/Sep 01 01:26
oiaohmProblem for MS now Linux developers are getting interested.Sep 01 01:26
oiaohmLinux has eaten up all the supercomputer market.Sep 01 01:26
oiaohmIt now needs to find a new homes to make even more profit.Sep 01 01:27
oiaohmThe desktop is in the way of Linux becoming the most dominate OS for web serving.Sep 01 01:27
cubezzz-laptoplaptops seem the next step for linuxSep 01 01:27
oiaohmLinux is also targeting embeded.Sep 01 01:27
oiaohmThey are doing a embrace and extend on a larger scale than what MS ever dreamed.Sep 01 01:28
cubezzz-laptopit's happening... I can see a good future for Linux, it's just slower than I hopedSep 01 01:28
Chips_B_MalroyMS uses the power of the monopoly to create lock in, and to see that Windows is installed by intimidation on OEM computers in most of the world.Sep 01 01:28
oiaohmAnd MS are still doing it.Sep 01 01:28
Will__Windows and Linux started out on opposite ends of the spectrum.  Linux was secure, stable, scalable, and great as an all purpose workhorse, but didn't start out very user/consumer friendly.  Windows was easy for people to use, but not a great OS in the other areas.Sep 01 01:29
oiaohmVolume licences for Windows Vista and Windows 7 depends on a KMS server that only runs on windows.Sep 01 01:29
Will__Linux has made great strides on the user friendliness area, but Windows hasn't made much of a dent in improving the security, safety, and scalability of the OS.Sep 01 01:29
oiaohmMS market dominace comes from dos not windows.Sep 01 01:29
oiaohmWindows was just clean up.Sep 01 01:30
Chips_B_MalroyWill has nailed it on the security issue with Windows.Sep 01 01:30
oiaohmLinux is only just starting on scalabity.Sep 01 01:31
Chips_B_Malroyyes, from Dos, that is correct Oiaohm, and well putSep 01 01:31
oiaohmMS really never had to fight for market.Sep 01 01:31
oiaohmMS made deals early on that all machines from a company wanted to provide dos had to pay MS as if dos was installed no matter what was installed.Sep 01 01:32
Diablo-D3lets just go out and buy amigasSep 01 01:32
Will__oiaohm, well, I was comparing Linux to Windows on scalability.Sep 01 01:32
Chips_B_MalroyThe thinking of Bill and Steve is most likely that the inertial and lock in of MS will stop most user from movingSep 01 01:32
cubezzz-laptopDiablo-D3, to the rescue! :)Sep 01 01:32
oiaohmLinux scalabity will almost double in the next 12 months Will__Sep 01 01:32
oiaohmksm will go in 2.6.32 at this stage.  allowing memory of Linux to kinda compress.Sep 01 01:33
Diablo-D3I wonder if theres an amiga emulator out thereSep 01 01:33
Diablo-D3oiaohm: mehSep 01 01:33
Will__Chips_B_Malroy: That inertia can only last so long.  It is vast, but finite.Sep 01 01:33
Chips_B_MalroyOiaohm> real time comes in kernel 2.6.31?Sep 01 01:33
oiaohmThe kernel locking of the Linux kernel should get sorted out.Sep 01 01:33
oiaohmNot all of real time Chips_B_MalroySep 01 01:33
Diablo-D3ksm is retarded anyhowSep 01 01:33
Diablo-D3kvm should have never existedSep 01 01:34
oiaohmksm is packing duplicate memory blocks.Sep 01 01:34
Diablo-D3ksm is doing so for kvm.Sep 01 01:34
oiaohmIt does have an advantage even for KDE.Sep 01 01:34
Diablo-D3no, its only for kvmSep 01 01:34
oiaohmNo.Sep 01 01:34
Diablo-D3it doesn't do anything on machines that dont have fucktarded ownersSep 01 01:34
oiaohmksm can apply system wide Diablo-D3Sep 01 01:35
oiaohmI have used it that way.Sep 01 01:35
Diablo-D3you'd have to have duplicate pagesSep 01 01:35
oiaohmYep most common gcc stub.Sep 01 01:35
oiaohmat the start of executables.Sep 01 01:35
Diablo-D3I don't think so, Tim.Sep 01 01:35
oiaohmThere are duplicate pages cause by duplicate date in files.Sep 01 01:36
oiaohmTo be correct duplicate executable data.Sep 01 01:36
oiaohmIts about a 1 percent memory saving.Sep 01 01:37
Diablo-D3in other words, useless.Sep 01 01:37
oiaohmWhen working with large databases doing operations.Sep 01 01:37
Diablo-D3I wish Linus would quit adding crap to the kernelSep 01 01:37
oiaohmThat can rise from 1 percent to around 60 percent savings.Sep 01 01:38
oiaohmParticularly mysql.Sep 01 01:38
oiaohmThat is hiding in the backend sections of kde in places.Sep 01 01:38
Diablo-D3mysql is shit, howeverSep 01 01:39
oiaohmmysql is not the most effective memory using beast.Sep 01 01:39
Diablo-D3mysql is the least useful sql daemon I've ever had the misfortune of usingSep 01 01:39
oiaohmksm helps kvm and shit programs work better.Sep 01 01:39
Diablo-D3ksm is a stupid hack thenSep 01 01:39
oiaohmNot really.Sep 01 01:39
Diablo-D3what we really need is a kernel feature to identify shit programsSep 01 01:39
oiaohmksm helps with that.Sep 01 01:40
oiaohmksm packed pages are loged.Sep 01 01:40
Diablo-D3unless it pops up an X window and says "HA HA MYSQL IS FOR FAGS", I dont see it helpingSep 01 01:40
oiaohmSo you can see programs that need help.Sep 01 01:40
Will__I've never dealt much with mysql, but does anyone know what the status on that is now?Sep 01 01:40
oiaohmThat information is accessable threw proc.Sep 01 01:40
Will__Seems like there's a fork or two that might get popular soonSep 01 01:40
oiaohmAll that is missing is a little graphical front end Diablo-D3Sep 01 01:40
Diablo-D3Will__: no one wants itSep 01 01:41
Diablo-D3the only people who use it are people stuck using badly written php appsSep 01 01:41
Diablo-D3everyone else uses pg or oracleSep 01 01:41
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oiaohmksm also helps out compcache.Sep 01 01:42
Will__So postgreSQL is pretty much the standard free database now?Sep 01 01:42
oiaohmThat I hope ends up mainline soon.Sep 01 01:42
oiaohmLets not send ram to disk.Sep 01 01:42
oiaohmLest compress it in ram its a nice solution.Sep 01 01:42
oiaohmHarddisks are not known for being fast.Sep 01 01:43
oiaohmBasically Linux ram effectiveness is going to rise.Sep 01 01:46
oiaohmThat will have a direct boost on performance.   Boy does virtual memory hurt.Sep 01 01:46
Diablo-D3Will__: its the only thing I'll useSep 01 01:46
Diablo-D3Will__: mysql performance no matter what you do or how hard you try will always suckSep 01 01:47
Will__Diablo-D3: Thanks.  I try to keep up a least a little on different areas of software.  Things change over time, and I like knowing what is currently the best to learn if I ever want to do a little moonlighting or hobby work.Sep 01 01:49
Diablo-D3well, sql is sqlSep 01 01:50
Diablo-D3as long as you're using a sane language the choice of daemon shouldn't greatly matterSep 01 01:50
Diablo-D3ie, not phpSep 01 01:50
Diablo-D3php doesn't have a universal sql daemon api in the boxSep 01 01:50
Diablo-D3and the one it has kinda sucksSep 01 01:51
Diablo-D3perl otoh has dbi, and java has jdbcSep 01 01:51
Will__I've never used php.  Mostly just scripting languages and C/C++Sep 01 01:51
oiaohmFor html work php is great.Sep 01 01:56
oiaohmFor anything else you are kinda asking for it.Sep 01 01:56
Diablo-D3oiaohm: bwahahahahahaSep 01 01:57
Diablo-D3no.Sep 01 01:57
Diablo-D3for html work, html is great.Sep 01 01:57
oiaohmDynamic html Diablo-D3Sep 01 01:57
oiaohmStuffed changed by databases and the like.Sep 01 01:58
Diablo-D3except you need to learn clean seperation between controller and view.Sep 01 01:58
oiaohmThere are the warped uses of php 01 01:58
oiaohmPHP does it was designed for quite well.Sep 01 01:59
Diablo-D3php was not designedSep 01 01:59
Diablo-D3please do not spread that mythSep 01 01:59
oiaohmPHP and old ASP follow the same basic design.Sep 01 02:02
oiaohmCode inside html that is a nice feature.Sep 01 02:02
Diablo-D3yes, and its a bad one.Sep 01 02:02
Diablo-D3thats a bad featureSep 01 02:02
oiaohmSo you are one of these who think the .net way is right.Sep 01 02:03
oiaohmSplit the display and the code form so you cannot see clear alignment between the two.Sep 01 02:04
Diablo-D3uh, how so?Sep 01 02:04 doesn't implement anything there because doesn't actually existSep 01 02:04
Diablo-D3its just a figment of your imaginationSep 01 02:04
Diablo-D3this is a no troll zoneSep 01 02:05
oiaohmI could have said java.Sep 01 02:05
Diablo-D3and you wouldn't have made any senseSep 01 02:05
Diablo-D3anyhow, I suggest you learn how mvc worksSep 01 02:05
Diablo-D3and quit coding shitSep 01 02:05
oiaohmI know how MVC works.Sep 01 02:05
Diablo-D3code inside templates suckSep 01 02:06
Diablo-D3it sucked when php did itSep 01 02:06
Diablo-D3it sucked when asp did itSep 01 02:06
Diablo-D3it sucked when jsp did itSep 01 02:06
Diablo-D3and it'll suck tommorow when some other fucktard decides to do itSep 01 02:06
oiaohmMeans not to limit html it provides and not having to edit large ammounts of program to correct minor html errors is its advantage.Sep 01 02:07
oiaohmAlso it can be suprising effective on memory usage.Sep 01 02:08
Diablo-D3both are false, please stop spreading fud.Sep 01 02:08
oiaohmWhat are you using.Sep 01 02:08
Diablo-D3java.Sep 01 02:08
Diablo-D3and why automatically assume the code is split?Sep 01 02:09
Diablo-D3controllers _can_ output htmlSep 01 02:09
Diablo-D3they just can't _be_ htmlSep 01 02:10
Diablo-D3although outputting html directly is rather wasteful, client side xslt seems to be the way to goSep 01 02:10
oiaohmWithout running the program it is harder to get quick over view of what will be generated in a non template model.Sep 01 02:10
Diablo-D3wrong.Sep 01 02:11
Diablo-D3please learn to codeSep 01 02:11
oiaohmUse dreamweaver some time Diablo-D3Sep 01 02:11
Diablo-D3why would I do something stupid like that?Sep 01 02:11
schestowitzDiablo-D3: watch the languageSep 01 02:11
oiaohmIt use using html overview editing of code.Sep 01 02:12
Diablo-D3it also produces crap useless htmlSep 01 02:12
oiaohmIe build final look you want and work back to active page.Sep 01 02:12
oiaohmIts a quite fast method.Sep 01 02:13
oiaohmIt backwards to the way you most likely do it.Sep 01 02:13
Diablo-D3its a very slow methodSep 01 02:13
oiaohmIts not a slow method.Sep 01 02:13
Diablo-D3I'd have to rewrite all the html to be functional and standards compliantSep 01 02:13
Diablo-D3dreamweaver is crapSep 01 02:13
oiaohmI did not say the code out put of dreamweaver was clean.Sep 01 02:14
Diablo-D3anything that causes me more work is uselessSep 01 02:14
oiaohmIts the most common program people have access to see the using template method.Sep 01 02:14
Diablo-D3not at allSep 01 02:14
Diablo-D3a text editor is the most common programSep 01 02:14
oiaohmIn the correct way.Sep 01 02:14
Diablo-D3html is extremely simple, I suggest people actually learn itSep 01 02:14
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oiaohmPHP and the other template langages are design so peson codes html then upgrades it to a dynamic page.Sep 01 02:15
oiaohmSo avoiding having large ammounts of back ground code.Sep 01 02:15
oiaohmSo lowering risk of coding errors.Sep 01 02:16
Diablo-D3yes, which is caused being lazySep 01 02:16
Diablo-D3lazy coders produce crap, generallySep 01 02:16
oiaohmMore code to do task is worse.Sep 01 02:16
Diablo-D3wrongSep 01 02:16
oiaohmIts right.Sep 01 02:16
Diablo-D3more time spent maintaining crap is far worseSep 01 02:16
Diablo-D3doing it right the first time means never having to fix it laterSep 01 02:17
oiaohmNot true.Sep 01 02:17
oiaohmNothing things change over time causing what was perfect once to be problems latter.Sep 01 02:17
oiaohmWould have to be true for what you said to be true Diablo-D3Sep 01 02:18
Diablo-D3things generally don't change that waySep 01 02:18
Diablo-D3dynamic websites over the past decade generally all do the same things over and over and over againSep 01 02:18
oiaohmMore code harder they are to find when they do.Sep 01 02:18
Diablo-D3and they continue to use the same bad techniques over and overSep 01 02:18
oiaohmYou are saving on one hand that will cost you on another.Sep 01 02:19
Diablo-D3not at all.Sep 01 02:19
Diablo-D3I am saving on both hands and saving some on my feet tooSep 01 02:19
oiaohmHave you used php compliers.Sep 01 02:20
Diablo-D3I don't use slow languages like phpSep 01 02:20
Diablo-D3its pointlessSep 01 02:20
oiaohmPHP converted to native is not slower than java its faster.Sep 01 02:21
Diablo-D3bwahahahahahahSep 01 02:21
Diablo-D3oh wowSep 01 02:21
Diablo-D3I lol'dSep 01 02:21
Diablo-D3oiaohm: seriously, you're usually not this stupid, quit.Sep 01 02:21
oiaohmSorry it is Diablo-D3Sep 01 02:21
oiaohmThe processing engine in php is a temp advantage.Sep 01 02:21
oiaohmTo java.Sep 01 02:22
oiaohmI guess you forget what java was like before it had JIT.Sep 01 02:22
Diablo-D3why bring up old versions of java?Sep 01 02:22
Diablo-D3I'm not using old shit, its irrelevant.Sep 01 02:23
oiaohmBecause the tech in current PHP is the same.Sep 01 02:23
oiaohmThe advantages you see are nothing more than an engine limitation.Sep 01 02:23
oiaohmNot a language one.Sep 01 02:23
Diablo-D3but php, syntax wise, is absolute crapSep 01 02:24
Diablo-D3please stop polluting the internetSep 01 02:24
oiaohmHowSep 01 02:24
oiaohmNote I use to code in dbase.  PHP is not that nasty.Sep 01 02:24
oiaohmphp uses small ammounts of code to do a lot.   Every language has different syntax styles that people either like or hate.Sep 01 02:25
Diablo-D3php is about repeating yourself multiple times because php has basically no standard libarySep 01 02:26
oiaohmphp has includes.Sep 01 02:27
oiaohmCore C does not have a standard libary you have to use either.Sep 01 02:27
oiaohmSame with java.Sep 01 02:27
oiaohmOnly issue with it missing is lacking a built form causes processing load.Sep 01 02:28
oiaohmAgain engine limitation nothing more.Sep 01 02:28
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oiaohmIts the problem I have people cannot assess program langange syntax and style independant to its engine limiations.Sep 01 02:31
oiaohmYou assessments of php are the same as the 1995 assements of java vs the most evil web coding language on earth perl.  Where perl was said to be better. Diablo-D3Sep 01 02:33
oiaohmBy the way Diablo-D3 there is a thrid party database independance libs.  adodbSep 01 02:43
oiaohmfor php.Sep 01 02:43
oiaohmJust lot of php coders choose not to use it.Sep 01 02:43
Diablo-D3I said it existsSep 01 02:44
Diablo-D3I also said no one uses itSep 01 02:44
Diablo-D3php is dead imoSep 01 02:44
oiaohmphp will be around for a long time to come.Sep 01 02:45
Diablo-D3it will continue to suck for a long time to come, yesSep 01 02:46
oiaohmSame was said about java back in history too.Sep 01 02:46
oiaohmIssue with php is engine releated not the language itself.Sep 01 02:48
oiaohmin my eyes.Sep 01 02:48
oiaohmengine issues can be fixed.  If it was core language design that would not be fixable.Sep 01 02:48
Diablo-D3the language is shit, dudeSep 01 02:49
Diablo-D3worst syntax everSep 01 02:49
Diablo-D3and php itself contains nothing usefulSep 01 02:49
Diablo-D3php was designed to be perl liteSep 01 02:49
oiaohmCore C Diablo-D3?Sep 01 02:49
oiaohmHave you used just core C before.Sep 01 02:50
Diablo-D3in other words, they took everything out of perl that made perl worth usingSep 01 02:50
Diablo-D3why are you defending php anyhow?Sep 01 02:50
Diablo-D3being a php shill is worse than being a microsoft shillSep 01 02:50
oiaohmperl without cpan is not that great either.Sep 01 02:50
oiaohmphp without pear makes life hard.Sep 01 02:50
Diablo-D3pear might as well not existSep 01 02:51
Diablo-D3no one uses itSep 01 02:51
oiaohmThat is kinda wrong.Sep 01 02:51
oiaohmLot of larger web apps do.Sep 01 02:51
Diablo-D3there are very few widespread php appsSep 01 02:51
oiaohmIts lot of the new php coders who don't.   As they get experisned they learn the pear is simpler.Sep 01 02:52
oiaohmSame applies to java coders as well.Sep 01 02:52
Diablo-D3as they get experienced they learn a real languageSep 01 02:52
oiaohmNot true Diablo-D3.Sep 01 02:52
Diablo-D3no, very trueSep 01 02:52
Diablo-D3if they keep using php, I dont care if they use it for 15 years, they're not experienced.Sep 01 02:52
oiaohmI could say the same about java coders.Sep 01 02:53
oiaohmThe you could say the same about C coders.Sep 01 02:53
Diablo-D3not at allSep 01 02:53
Diablo-D3c and java are real languagesSep 01 02:53
Diablo-D3php istnSep 01 02:53
oiaohmUntil you get to the point that the only experienced people are using bytecode.Sep 01 02:53
oiaohmWho is trollish here Diablo-D3Sep 01 02:53
Diablo-D3you are, franklySep 01 02:54
oiaohmLanguage is Language.Sep 01 02:54
Diablo-D3its quite obvious you've never coded on anything big a day in your lifeSep 01 02:54
oiaohmI have worked with PHP and Java.  I am a code debugger.   Picking up all the nasty times thing change causing code to not be functional.Sep 01 02:55
oiaohmAnd having to repair the code.Sep 01 02:55
oiaohmI would say PHP is far more pleasent since it simple to split the PHP and html code to work out what one has the bug.Sep 01 02:56
oiaohmThe difference between coder and debugger Diablo-D3.  I purely want the least and cleanest code.Sep 01 02:57
oiaohmWorst thing I have ever tried to debug is wine itself.Sep 01 02:57
Diablo-D3noSep 01 02:57
Diablo-D3the difference between a perl coder and the rest of the world is a perl coder wants the least and cleanest codeSep 01 02:58
Diablo-D3clearly you're not a perl coderSep 01 02:58
oiaohmperl has means of making not readable code.Sep 01 02:58
oiaohmAgain not what debuging people want.Sep 01 02:59
Diablo-D3no, people have the means of making code not readableSep 01 02:59
Diablo-D3you can do it in any language, perl does not make it especially hardSep 01 02:59
Diablo-D3er, esspecially easySep 01 02:59
oiaohmIt the syntax of perl.Sep 01 02:59
oiaohmIt makes it very easy to create code that can be miss read.Sep 01 03:00
oiaohmSo making debugging harder.Sep 01 03:00
Diablo-D3bwahahahSep 01 03:00
Diablo-D3no.Sep 01 03:00
Diablo-D3less fudSep 01 03:00
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oiaohmDiablo-D3: do you really want some examples.  If so the next time I am debugging perl that has screwed up I will keep the notes.    Perl is insanly simple to overlap internal functions and not get warnings.Sep 01 03:03
oiaohmSo program starts miss behaving because some code did that.Sep 01 03:04
oiaohmThat is a language syntax error.Sep 01 03:04
Diablo-D3oiaohm: not trueSep 01 03:07
Diablo-D3a perl program or module that does not start with "use strict; use warnings;" is incorrectly written.Sep 01 03:07
oiaohmAnd why does perl allow a program to be created with out that.Sep 01 03:08
Diablo-D3because people bitched very loudly when it broke their programsSep 01 03:08
Diablo-D36 will have it on by defaultSep 01 03:09
oiaohmThere is still a use in perl 6 to turn it off.Sep 01 03:09
Diablo-D3probably notSep 01 03:09
oiaohmThere is.Sep 01 03:09
oiaohmYou can apply it part way threw a programSep 01 03:10
Diablo-D3its not perl's job to stop you from hanging yourself.Sep 01 03:10
oiaohmSo use strict at top.Sep 01 03:10
oiaohmTurn it off half way threw.Sep 01 03:10
oiaohmnasty for debuging.Sep 01 03:10
Diablo-D3[10:18:43] <Diablo-D3> its not perl's job to stop you from hanging yourself.Sep 01 03:10
Diablo-D3and as I said earlier, perl doesn't make buggy code, people do.Sep 01 03:10
oiaohmIe people doing debug like language that pervent people from hang self as often.Sep 01 03:11
oiaohmAnd hate those that kinda don't.Sep 01 03:11
oiaohmDoes it now make sence why perl is not like by me.Sep 01 03:11
Diablo-D3I dont actually care what you like or dontSep 01 03:13
Diablo-D3you like php, you're braindeadSep 01 03:13
oiaohmNo matter how good you write a program it will always be broken by someone.Sep 01 03:16
oiaohmThen someone like me will have to fix it.Sep 01 03:16
oiaohmpython I even prefer over java.Sep 01 03:16
oiaohmI don't know what is with java coders and the over use of classes.Sep 01 03:17
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Diablo-D3oiaohm fails it, as usualSep 01 03:18
oiaohmDifferent point of view Diablo-D3Sep 01 03:19
oiaohmI class your line as a high risk of failures and being harder and more time consuming to fix and bring back on line.Sep 01 03:20
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oiaohmPHP is more design that site be self contained.  There are advantages to the PHP way of not having a huge runtime.  Not as like to global nuke .  Diablo-D3Sep 01 03:22
Diablo-D3self contained == repeat yourself constantlySep 01 03:22
oiaohmReally as a coder what stops you from having a runtime you ship with the sites you develop Diablo-D3Sep 01 03:23
oiaohmSo as a coder you don't repeat constantly.Sep 01 03:23
Diablo-D3oiaohm: woah shit dudeSep 01 03:24
Diablo-D3that takes workSep 01 03:24
oiaohmNot really.Sep 01 03:24
oiaohmWhat is pear about.Sep 01 03:24
Diablo-D3why the fuck would I want to write code that already existsSep 01 03:24
Diablo-D3like, MOST OF ITSep 01 03:24
oiaohmWho said you wrote the runtime.Sep 01 03:25
oiaohmYou would have to be nuts to do that.Sep 01 03:25
oiaohmLot of new php coders are that nuts.Sep 01 03:25
Diablo-D3wordpress was written by new php codersSep 01 03:26
Diablo-D3so was mediawikiSep 01 03:26
Diablo-D3keep that in mindSep 01 03:26
oiaohmLot of the wordpress ones have grown up and now use items like pear to avoid having to duplicate up.Sep 01 03:26
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oiaohmPHP gives you the option to duplicate up.Sep 01 03:27
oiaohmJust like any language does including java.Sep 01 03:27
oiaohmIf you choose to take the path of duplicating up without need you are just inexperinced with the language.Sep 01 03:28
oiaohmIf you are finding your self constantly repeating code in any modern coding language you are using it wrong.Sep 01 03:30
oiaohmSo its not grounds to say a langauge is bad if it just your lack of skill with it.Sep 01 03:30
Diablo-D3it is, however, grounds to say a language is bad if lots of people lack skill with itSep 01 03:34
oiaohmNo lots of people lack skill at using java and c++ well as well.Sep 01 03:34
oiaohmI just find from debuging java people annoy me at over stacking classes.Sep 01 03:35
oiaohmSimple program that should only be 1 class deep some of them manage to get lost while coding and end up with 5 to 8 classes deep.Sep 01 03:36
oiaohmMostly because of java runtime.Sep 01 03:36
oiaohmInternally is stacked.   Something that makes debugging annoying.Sep 01 03:37
oiaohmI prefer no runtime to a stacked runtime with debugging.Sep 01 03:38
oiaohmMore levels of stacking you have more risk that 1 of those levels can get damaged causing multiable errrors to appear that appear not releated.Sep 01 03:44
oiaohmAnd cost ages to track down.Sep 01 03:44
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oiaohmI would really like a langauge that run script and can convert to native on fly.   Mostly debugging make it faster no waiting around for complier to get job done.  Always with having to debug a borked site person want it fixed yesterday.Sep 01 04:06
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oiaohm  Ok Late but X11 is coming.Sep 01 04:32
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twitter1Bong continues a 2 year M$ tradition of forged referring pages that include porn 01 04:44
twitter1malicious in their failuresSep 01 04:46
twitter1Office worker bemoans M$ stronghold on corporate IT 01 05:11
twitter1forced to use Outlook and IE 6.  Poor thing thinks Gmail changed their life, they have no idea how small their world is.Sep 01 05:13
twitter1Long ago, RMS warned that non free software is demoralizing.Sep 01 05:16
twitter1People kept from helping themselves are less happy and productive than those who can fix things they way they like.Sep 01 05:17
oiaohmThe stronghold is only cracked its not fully broken yet.Sep 01 05:22
twitter1The excuse given by the State Department was that patching and updating their computers was so expensive they could not afford Firefox.Sep 01 05:22
oiaohmThe day the stronghold is fully broken will be the time to party.Sep 01 05:22
twitter1Perhaps they should use a system that's not so expensive to patch.Sep 01 05:23
twitter1M$ failures used as an excuse to stay M$ only.Sep 01 05:23
twitter1Pathetic.Sep 01 05:23
oiaohmNot really it shows you how strong the lock in is.Sep 01 05:24
oiaohmFirefox would have to be audited before goverment usage.Sep 01 05:24
oiaohmReally making MS software so time consuming and money eating to patch is really just a nasty form of vendor lockin.Sep 01 05:25
oiaohmReally I would not like the see the total global bill MS windows is costing.Sep 01 05:27
twitter1lol, at least you can do an audit of FF.  I doubt any such thing is done for Winblows and IE. -> oiaohm: Firefox would have to be audited before goverment usage.Sep 01 05:27
oiaohmScary it is twitter1Sep 01 05:29
neighborleeoiaohm, at least they are being challenged in huge way on netbooks etc.( linux on flashc hip),,desktops shrug haven't seen latest figuresSep 01 05:30
oiaohmMS has to release source code to inspecting by USA goverment and most other goverments so it can be used.Sep 01 05:30
oiaohmWhen you know that windows source code has been independantally audited it so distusting that it still such a huge mother of a mess.Sep 01 05:31
oiaohmFirefox on redhat is audited.Sep 01 05:32
oiaohmDue to USA goverment rules the windows version is not classed as audited.Sep 01 05:32
oiaohmYes the hell of goverment red tape twitter1Sep 01 05:32
oiaohmThe sad thing is the rules of the audit got altered to cover process of development not the quality of code as well in the USA twitter1Sep 01 05:38
oiaohmYou sorce points under the USA audit for having a design document even if you don't follow it.Sep 01 05:39
neighborleesource code of what ?Sep 01 05:39
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neighborleeaudited for what?Sep 01 05:39
neighborleewth ;)Sep 01 05:39
oiaohmWindows has a usa goverment classification for being audited.  to EAL4Sep 01 05:41
oiaohmFirefox under redhat and suse is classified to EAL4Sep 01 05:42
oiaohmUnder windows no classified as EAL4Sep 01 05:42
oiaohmYes completely nuts.Sep 01 05:42
DaemonFCoiaohm: Windows Server has much higher default security settings than Windows XP, Vista, 7, etcSep 01 05:44
oiaohmXP and Windows server have the same level EALSep 01 05:44
DaemonFCto the point where it takes about an hour of configuration to make it usable as a desktop OSSep 01 05:44
oiaohmBecause the EAL system is about process of development.Sep 01 05:44
DaemonFCbecause that's not what it's meant to be used forSep 01 05:45
oiaohmnot quality of end product.Sep 01 05:45
oiaohmEAL replaced the old system that use to review the secuirty of the OS core.Sep 01 05:45
DaemonFCWindows Server also lets you install a command prompt only installationSep 01 05:45
oiaohmand of course USA has been a sitting duck since then.Sep 01 05:45
DaemonFCwithout the Explorer shell, DirectX, Internet Explorer, etcSep 01 05:45
oiaohmDoes not make any difference in the current day USA rating system DaemonFCSep 01 05:46
oiaohmWould have in the prior rating system.Sep 01 05:46
DaemonFCwell, if you are going to use it as a server, it would be a good idea to use the minimal installationSep 01 05:46
DaemonFCreduces the attack surface by over 70% if I recall correctlySep 01 05:47
DaemonFCyou can still call up programs with the command prompt, or Powershell if you want to use thatSep 01 05:48
DaemonFCWell, I don't know if I would call RHEL or Suse any more secure than Windows ServerSep 01 05:49
oiaohmUnder the old rating system RHEL and SUSE are.Sep 01 05:49
DaemonFCmost people think Windows and something like XP comes to mind where all the security has been turned off and all the services are onSep 01 05:49
DaemonFCand all users are administratorsSep 01 05:49
oiaohmWindows secuirty core does not implement MAC fully enough.Sep 01 05:49
oiaohmSo under the old system were lower rating that RHEL or SUSE.Sep 01 05:50
DaemonFCMicrosoft's enterprise level support is a lot better than what you get when you go to Walmart and buy Vista, obviouslySep 01 05:51
DaemonFCtheir support contracts usually state a much stricter turnaround time for patches, for exampleSep 01 05:51
DaemonFCthe government is probably rating them on things like thatSep 01 05:51
oiaohmI am talking from a pure tech point of view on user to user isolation.Sep 01 05:52
oiaohmThere will always be holes.Sep 01 05:52
twitter1FEM look at shell shock 01 05:52
DaemonFCwell, Server boots you up as Administrator with UAC turned offSep 01 05:52
oiaohmGoal of isolation is to make the process of extracting data from a hole as hard as possiable.Sep 01 05:53
twitter1perhaps there's something to "commotion" after all.Sep 01 05:53
DaemonFCit's kind of figuring you'll use that account to setup the system and then never really log into it like that againSep 01 05:53
oiaohmUAC is not MAC.Sep 01 05:53
oiaohmIts only like half a MAC.Sep 01 05:53
DaemonFCand MAC is usually either useless (AppArmor)Sep 01 05:53
oiaohmTrue MAC wraps around all services you are using.Sep 01 05:54
DaemonFCor you watch all your programs die and malfunction in horrible ways (SELinux)Sep 01 05:54
twitter1perhaps it's a cover for PTSD that people will always suffer when they see their neighbors blown to bits.Sep 01 05:54
oiaohmAppArmor fails does not count under the old system.Sep 01 05:54
DaemonFCI usually call it CrappArmorSep 01 05:54
oiaohmSelinux and smack both passed.Sep 01 05:54
DaemonFCit's a total shamSep 01 05:54
DaemonFCUbuntu is using it :)Sep 01 05:54
DaemonFCeven though Novell is probably going to ditch it eventuallySep 01 05:55
oiaohmThat is the sad thing Ubuntu can get EAL4Sep 01 05:55
DaemonFCthey already fired the development team a while backSep 01 05:55
oiaohmEven that under the old system it would barly get a rating due to default of apparmor.Sep 01 05:55
DaemonFCSELinux is not a good thingSep 01 05:55
oiaohmSELinux is a good thing.Sep 01 05:55
DaemonFCit just adds complication and the policies are difficult to implement and debugSep 01 05:55
oiaohmIt is a true MAC.Sep 01 05:55
DaemonFCTomoyo is probably where you want to beSep 01 05:56
oiaohmNo MAC is 100 percent friendly.Sep 01 05:56
DaemonFCSELinux is not meant to be used by human beingsSep 01 05:56
oiaohmTomoyo is a low rating that selinux.Sep 01 05:56
oiaohmSELinux was designed for truly secure systems.Sep 01 05:56
DaemonFCRed Hat has to make a policy that only kills "some" of your applications and leaves most of the system unprotectedSep 01 05:56
oiaohmIe high rating.Sep 01 05:56
DaemonFCor else the entire system becomes impossible to useSep 01 05:57
DaemonFCand it's not friendly with some file systemsSep 01 05:57
oiaohmAgain not true.Sep 01 05:57
oiaohmThere is just not need to protect all.Sep 01 05:57
DaemonFC(JFS, ReiserFS)Sep 01 05:57
DaemonFCall and all, I'd call SELinux unreasonableSep 01 05:57
DaemonFCby the time it provides much protection, the system is unusable and all your applications are crashing over benign operationsSep 01 05:58
oiaohmHighest secuirty avaibale all forms are unreasonable for general users.Sep 01 05:58
oiaohmFor secure data stores different matter.Sep 01 05:58
oiaohmYou normally don't have a broad range of applications on them.Sep 01 05:59
DaemonFCI'd call impossible to maintain and high support costs due to SELinux as at least equally bad to the Windows Server lack of MACSep 01 05:59
oiaohmSo handling something as picky as selinux is not a major headache.Sep 01 05:59
oiaohmNot impossiable.Sep 01 05:59
DaemonFCthey need to come up with something that's a lot easier to support, or just forget itSep 01 05:59
oiaohmHave you used selinux with utils to manage it.Sep 01 05:59
oiaohmI guess not.Sep 01 06:00
DaemonFCYeah, it's a jokeSep 01 06:00
oiaohmselinux has a learning mode.Sep 01 06:00
oiaohmWith the right untils.Sep 01 06:00
DaemonFCand the "targeted" policy loves to kill your Wine programsSep 01 06:00
oiaohmReallySep 01 06:00
DaemonFCbut occasionally even things that came with Fedora will die for no reasonSep 01 06:00
oiaohmThinking I run Wine with selinux all the time DaemonFCSep 01 06:00
DaemonFCSELinux loves to kill Tomboy for some reasonSep 01 06:00
oiaohmI can answer that one.Sep 01 06:01
DaemonFCI've even had it shut down Gedit and I lost all my unsaved workSep 01 06:01
oiaohmFedora 10 right.Sep 01 06:01
oiaohmFedora developers also need to learn leave the selinux rules alone at times.Sep 01 06:01
DaemonFC8, 9, and 10Sep 01 06:01
DaemonFCit's about equally painful in all of themSep 01 06:01
oiaohmSomeone added a forbid function to the debian selinux rule in 8 on GeditSep 01 06:02
DaemonFCFedora 7 didn't seem to be as bad about itSep 01 06:02
oiaohmFedora 7 had pure debian selinux rules.Sep 01 06:02
DaemonFCmost people get sick of it and just install Fedora without SELinuxSep 01 06:02
oiaohmNon played with.Sep 01 06:02
oiaohmThat is fedora.Sep 01 06:02
DaemonFCwell, a security system isn't any good at all if you piss people off and they disable itSep 01 06:03
oiaohmSome how I think redhat screwed with fedora selinux rules to try to get people buying the commerical that works.Sep 01 06:03
DaemonFCusing Fedora commercially is a very bad ideaSep 01 06:03
DaemonFCit's not against the license, just common senseSep 01 06:04
oiaohmWindows secuirty system is worse.Sep 01 06:04
oiaohmApplications can ask what can I access and windows answers.Sep 01 06:04
oiaohmSo an attacker can move around system perfectly not hitting any alarms.Sep 01 06:04
oiaohmThe issue of a MAC is that a MAC never tells application where its limits are.Sep 01 06:05
oiaohmWhen an application hits a limit it gets killed.Sep 01 06:06
DaemonFCweb browsers insisting upon running extensions have been the doorway to virtually all Windows malware of the last 10 yearsSep 01 06:06
oiaohmThis is true secuirty threw obsecuirty.Sep 01 06:06
DaemonFCthe runner up would probably be "freeware" that bundles spywareSep 01 06:06
oiaohmNo runner up is email.Sep 01 06:07
oiaohmThen freeware that bundles spyware.Sep 01 06:07
DaemonFCnot necessarily trueSep 01 06:07
oiaohmOver the last 10 years yes.Sep 01 06:07
DaemonFCno email client runs scripts by default anymore, do they?Sep 01 06:07
oiaohmLast 2 maybe the other way.Sep 01 06:07
DaemonFCnot even Outlook Express on XP does thatSep 01 06:07
oiaohmNo but lots of people still open like .doc files from email.Sep 01 06:08
DaemonFCwhich is why your virus scanner scans your email as it comes inSep 01 06:08
oiaohmWithout scanning them.Sep 01 06:08
DaemonFCbefore you get a chance to open itSep 01 06:08
oiaohmand into a program set to run macros.Sep 01 06:08
oiaohmBecause they get sick of the notice do you want to run macros.Sep 01 06:08
DaemonFCYeah, but unless you use MS Office or Star Office, you don't have those kinds of problemsSep 01 06:08 has no support for Microsoft Office macrosSep 01 06:09
oiaohmIncorrect DaemonFCSep 01 06:09
DaemonFCit has its own Macros that are just as dangerous, but nobody uses themSep 01 06:09
oiaohmOpenOffice has part support for MS macros.Sep 01 06:09
oiaohmBar virus writers DaemonFCSep 01 06:09
DaemonFCStarOffice can recompile Microsoft Office macros into StarBasicSep 01 06:09
oiaohmAnd some office traded excel and word games.Sep 01 06:09
DaemonFCthat's dangerousSep 01 06:09
oiaohmYour not telling me anything.Sep 01 06:10
DaemonFCI don't think OOo has that thoughSep 01 06:10
DaemonFCit was listed as one of the things you got with StarOffice that wasn't in OOoSep 01 06:10
oiaohmOOo in 3.x and up has some MS to starbasic converion.Sep 01 06:10
oiaohmIn the default package.Sep 01 06:11
oiaohmBut it does ask.Sep 01 06:11
oiaohmand there is no way to turn off asking.Sep 01 06:11
DaemonFCdoesn't help you if someone doesn't understand the questionSep 01 06:11
DaemonFCI mean, tens of thousands of people ran loveletter.txt.vbsSep 01 06:11
DaemonFC:)Sep 01 06:11
DaemonFCpeople are pretty ignorantSep 01 06:12
oiaohmout going macros don't get translated.Sep 01 06:12
oiaohmSo most MS office viruses die the big one in OpenOffice.Sep 01 06:12
oiaohmEmail is secound. Due to all the difference crap screen saves infected pdf's.. Infected docs....  Basically if you can send it by email infected someone has.Sep 01 06:13
oiaohmNext is crap applications.Sep 01 06:14
oiaohmThen next is usb from home.Sep 01 06:14
oiaohmOr other removalbe media.Sep 01 06:14
oiaohmNo matter how much you tell staff to scan them they don't.Sep 01 06:14
DaemonFCso in most cases, probably 95% or more, it's due to stupid userSep 01 06:15
DaemonFCor no antivirus monitoring the dangerous attachments and macros they runSep 01 06:15
oiaohmSimplest way still to break into a few businesses is leave a few infected usb keys around the lunch area.Sep 01 06:15
DaemonFCor the USB devices they plug inSep 01 06:15
DaemonFCor the crapware they installSep 01 06:15
DaemonFC:)Sep 01 06:15
oiaohmPeople will plug them in to find out whos usb key it is.Sep 01 06:15
oiaohmSo much for all the set up firewall.sSep 01 06:16
DaemonFCand Windows 7 doesn't use the autorun.inf if presentSep 01 06:16
DaemonFCVista and XP would, but you can turn that offSep 01 06:16
DaemonFCgranted that was a pretty stupid default considering how viruses spreadSep 01 06:16
oiaohmThat is incorrect.Sep 01 06:16
oiaohmYou can turn it off under XP but its a trip to hell.Sep 01 06:16
DaemonFCWindows Server has always had autorun turned off for things like thatSep 01 06:16
DaemonFCit's a setting in the control panelSep 01 06:17
DaemonFCor one change to a registry keySep 01 06:17
oiaohmIts got to be turned off in 6 different places in the registry in XP for it to stay off.Sep 01 06:17
DaemonFCI've never had that issueSep 01 06:17
oiaohmAnd a restore point made.Sep 01 06:17
oiaohmSo it don't roll it back with a restore point.Sep 01 06:17
DaemonFCSystem Restore has traditionally been a gigantic waste of hard drive spaceSep 01 06:18
oiaohmSystem Restore has been the worlds most useless and biggest headache.Sep 01 06:18
DaemonFCit works better in Windows 7, I've tried it, it's just hooking into the volume shadow service anyway so it's not the same System Restore as XPSep 01 06:18
oiaohmParticularly thinking windows update uses it.Sep 01 06:18
oiaohmshadow service is appearing in a few Linux filesystems.Sep 01 06:19
DaemonFCthe Home editions of Windows still have the old system restore features, but the backend is a limtied version of VSSSep 01 06:19
DaemonFC*limitedSep 01 06:19
oiaohmI like nilfs better.Sep 01 06:19
oiaohmits more useful than system restore.Sep 01 06:19
DaemonFCthe Professional and Ultimate versions have proper backup and recovery optionsSep 01 06:19
oiaohmnilfs can dig you out of all recent operations.Sep 01 06:20
DaemonFCso you can unfuck the system even if the System Restore feature in the Home version wouldn't help youSep 01 06:20
oiaohmOpps I just edited a file then deleted it and I want the edited copy.Sep 01 06:20
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oiaohmnilfs will help you out of that.Sep 01 06:20
DaemonFCWindows 98 had a utility I liked a lot better than System RestoreSep 01 06:21
oiaohmvolume shadows are a very limited way of doing it not that directly helpful to end user.Sep 01 06:21
DaemonFCit could back up the registry and restore it, that's all it didSep 01 06:21
DaemonFCmost of the time, it is a registry problemSep 01 06:21
oiaohmAlso broke crap loads a times.Sep 01 06:21
DaemonFCand System restore doesn't? :DSep 01 06:22
oiaohmMS tried doing halfway between what nilfs is and a normal system with system restore.Sep 01 06:22
DaemonFCSystem Restore doesn't just magically take you back in time to when the system worked rightSep 01 06:22
oiaohmnilfs is logging filesystem.Sep 01 06:22
oiaohmSo when you snapshot is the complete disk.Sep 01 06:22
DaemonFCyou always end up in some undefined state and it leaves a mess of programs laying around that don't work right anymore because they were installed after that restore point was madeSep 01 06:23
oiaohmNicer nilfs is smart enough to sort out new from old.Sep 01 06:23
oiaohmBecause its truely filesystem level.Sep 01 06:23
oiaohmBasically system restore is kinda above the filesystem trying to do a filesystem job and failing big time.Sep 01 06:23
DaemonFCWindows 7 backs up more stuff and so I think that's why it tends to work more oftenSep 01 06:23
oiaohmOther thing nilfs is copy on write.Sep 01 06:24
oiaohmSo it don't screw up and backup same file mult times.Sep 01 06:24
DaemonFCit would be nice if they could put snapshots into NTFSSep 01 06:24
oiaohmThat is where it should be.Sep 01 06:24
DaemonFCbut even most Linux users don't have thatSep 01 06:24
DaemonFCand won't for a long timeSep 01 06:24
DaemonFCcouple years anywaySep 01 06:24
oiaohmif you call 12 months a long time.Sep 01 06:25
oiaohmI use nilfs now DaemonFCSep 01 06:25
DaemonFCI doubt btrfs will be something anyone is using in 12 monthsSep 01 06:25
oiaohmxfs also has snapshoting.Sep 01 06:25
oiaohmYes Linux kernel can already do it.Sep 01 06:25
DaemonFCwho uses that?Sep 01 06:25
oiaohmJust not with the default filesystems.Sep 01 06:26
DaemonFCmost people don't even know what a file system is and just dump the system onto whatever the installer is defaulting toSep 01 06:26
oiaohmlvm can also snapshot filesystems.Sep 01 06:26
DaemonFC(Ubuntu users)Sep 01 06:26
oiaohmAgain it just a simple case Linux can do it no interface.Sep 01 06:26
oiaohmServer guys have been using it for a while.Sep 01 06:26
oiaohm  << There is the instructions for the lvm way you can use for ubuntu DaemonFCSep 01 06:28
oiaohmBasically add a gui and Linux is perfectly equal or better in the snapshot functionality.Sep 01 06:29
oiaohmOne thing that is smart about the lvm snapshots is multi mounting.Sep 01 06:30
DaemonFCLVM will be less painful when Grub 2 takes overSep 01 06:30
oiaohmso you can have new and old mounted.Sep 01 06:30
DaemonFCGRUB right now is being held together by bird droppings and good intentionsSep 01 06:31
DaemonFCI'm not even sure if you can have LVM on Ext4 and boot using GRUBSep 01 06:31
oiaohmGrub 2 change over is the next 12 months as well.Sep 01 06:31
DaemonFCdon't you need to boot on an Ext3 partition if you do that?Sep 01 06:31
oiaohmDepends on the size of the ext4Sep 01 06:32
oiaohmUnder a particular size Grub can read it as if it was ext3Sep 01 06:32
DaemonFCGRUB is a total mess right now and I really hope that these distributions can painlessly replace the millions of in-place GRUB installations with GRUB2 when it's outSep 01 06:32
DaemonFCsomething tells me that they'll leave it in place due to fears of ruining thousands of systemsSep 01 06:33
oiaohmDebain development is allready end of living grub1Sep 01 06:33
oiaohmNext debian release will be grub2Sep 01 06:33
oiaohmBasically over the next 12Sep 01 06:33
DaemonFCwhat do they plan to do for people who already have the old GRUB?Sep 01 06:35
DaemonFCit would be dangerous to just try and replace it during the upgrade, right?Sep 01 06:35
*BNc has quit ("malformed JSON string, neither array, object, number, string or atom, at character offset 0 (before "<!DOCTYPE html PUBLI...")Sep 01 06:35
oiaohmNo DaemonFCSep 01 06:36
oiaohmin case of upgrade all version of grub have been replace threw out history.Sep 01 06:36
oiaohmthis is just another version.Sep 01 06:36
oiaohmThe grub configratuion file did not change much.  Its mostly grub code that changed.Sep 01 06:37
DaemonFCUbuntu has said they don't intend to upgrade you if you're not doing a clean install of KarmicSep 01 06:37
DaemonFCthey cited the possible dangerSep 01 06:37
oiaohmAlarmest buggers.Sep 01 06:37
DaemonFCIn a lot of ways, LILO scared me a lot less than GRUBSep 01 06:38
oiaohmThere is more danger leaving grub 1 in place than installin grub2Sep 01 06:38
oiaohmgrub2 has a built in self resuce mode.Sep 01 06:38
oiaohmgrub 1 does not.Sep 01 06:38
oiaohmMost likely Ubuntu will leave it 1 more 6 month cycle before they upgrade it.Sep 01 06:39
DaemonFCself rescue, as in it can repair obvious problems rather than go "GRUB GRUB GRUB GRUB GRUB GRUB GRUB GRUB GRUB GRUB GRUB GRUB GRUB GRUB GRUB GRUB GRUB GRUB GRUB GRUB GRUB GRUB GRUB GRUB "?Sep 01 06:40
DaemonFCas in, that? :DSep 01 06:40
Diablo-D3ugh, who the fuck let DaemonFC back inSep 01 06:40
DaemonFCWatch your fucking mouth you god damned assholeSep 01 06:41
oiaohmIt can search for grub configuration files instead of just stoping DaemonFCSep 01 06:41
DaemonFC:PSep 01 06:41
oiaohmNow DaemonFC bad langauge risks ban.Sep 01 06:41
oiaohmSame to Diablo-D3Sep 01 06:41
*_Hicham_ (n=chatzill@ has joined #boycottnovellSep 01 06:41
DaemonFCseriously, Diablo-D3 is like being in a room with Eric CartmanSep 01 06:42
oiaohmPlease both of you read freenode rules.Sep 01 06:42
Diablo-D3since when did the freenode rules ever apply to me?Sep 01 06:42
_Hicham_freenode rules apply to anyoneSep 01 06:43
DaemonFCsince Ubuntu bought FreenodeSep 01 06:43
_Hicham_really ?Sep 01 06:43
oiaohmSince when you decide you don't want a freenode ban  Diablo-D3Sep 01 06:43
DaemonFCand implemented the "OMG!!! CoC!!! Pink Ponies!"Sep 01 06:43
oiaohmStop pulling legs DaemonFCSep 01 06:43
DaemonFCno, they just bribed them with a load of cashSep 01 06:43
Diablo-D3oiaohm: lilo himself tried to do that onceSep 01 06:43
Diablo-D3freenode didn't last very long after that.Sep 01 06:44
oiaohmfreenode is an agreement between a stack of different hosts.Sep 01 06:44
DaemonFC_Hicham_: How much cash do you fork over to get your logo taking up half the screen on their front page?Sep 01 06:44
Diablo-D3oiaohm: freenode is a gigantic disasterSep 01 06:44
Diablo-D3oiaohm: you forget, I've been here since before freenode, before opn, back when it was just a channel on efnetSep 01 06:45
DaemonFCoiaohm: If I won the lottery, I'd probably bribe them to change the front page to "Sponsored by Ubuntu Satanic Edition"Sep 01 06:45
DaemonFC:)Sep 01 06:45
Diablo-D3DaemonFC: then I'll just have to bribe them to support jewbuntuSep 01 06:45
_Hicham_what is wrong with that ?Sep 01 06:45
_Hicham_they have given money to freenodeSep 01 06:46
_Hicham_which is really greatSep 01 06:46
_Hicham_have u ever donated to an open source project ?Sep 01 06:46
DaemonFCyep, now they have their own fiefdomSep 01 06:46
Diablo-D3MinceR: back me up hereSep 01 06:46
MinceRhuh?Sep 01 06:46
Diablo-D3MinceR: did I or did I not bring freenode to it's knees because lilo pissed me offSep 01 06:46
MinceRi don't knowSep 01 06:47
Diablo-D3what, seriously?Sep 01 06:47
MinceRwhen was that anyway?Sep 01 06:47
_Hicham_DaemonFC : you completely lost your mindSep 01 06:47
Diablo-D3it was when lilo was still alive, for oneSep 01 06:47
_Hicham_Ubuntu are workingSep 01 06:47
MinceRthat isn't very specificSep 01 06:47
Diablo-D3MinceR: ask nenolod to tell you the storySep 01 06:47
_Hicham_while all what you are doing is whiningSep 01 06:47
DaemonFC_Hicham_: Canonical is jsut throwing money at anyone who will spam for themSep 01 06:47
DaemonFCit's been like that for a whileSep 01 06:47
_Hicham_it is their rightSep 01 06:47
_Hicham_that is sponsoringSep 01 06:47
Diablo-D3MinceR: ask him about the blue 1992 ford taurus tooSep 01 06:48
DaemonFCspamming/sponsoring, call it what you willSep 01 06:48
DaemonFCI call it a diseaseSep 01 06:48
_Hicham_sponsor them and they will put your name on the front pageSep 01 06:48
_Hicham_Sponsored by DaemonFCSep 01 06:48
oiaohmDaemonFC: << They are the ones mostly behind freenode.   Ubuntu just chipped in a bit of cash.Sep 01 06:48
Diablo-D3_Hicham_: Im going to have to photograph my dick thenSep 01 06:48
DaemonFClmaoSep 01 06:48
Diablo-D3"sponsored by diablo's gigantic dick (hey ladies, hes available)"Sep 01 06:48
DaemonFCthat's what I was thinkingSep 01 06:48
_Hicham_DaemonFC has generously donated a sum of $1 billion bucks to freenodeSep 01 06:48
*DaemonFC sues Diablo-D3 for copyright infringementSep 01 06:48
_Hicham_that would be great publicity for you DaemonFCSep 01 06:49
*Diablo-D3 smacks DaemonFC with aforementioned gigantic dickSep 01 06:49
DaemonFCyeah, it would, wouldn't itSep 01 06:49
*DaemonFC quotes Lester Burnham from American BeautySep 01 06:49
DaemonFC"Well why don't we all just sell our souls and go work for Satan because it's easier that way?"Sep 01 06:49
DaemonFC:DSep 01 06:50
MinceRm$ employees do exactly thatSep 01 06:50
Diablo-D3a crappy quote from a crappy character from a movie no one has ever watchedSep 01 06:50
MinceRand m$ "partners"Sep 01 06:50
oiaohmRead the ammount Ubuntu gave is really bugger all.Sep 01 06:50
Diablo-D3not only that, I'm not currently hiringSep 01 06:50
oiaohm£1700.00  << Yep largest donation is really not that large.Sep 01 06:50
Diablo-D31700 pounds? dude, thats like usd$10kSep 01 06:50
DaemonFChmmm, they must be really hard up for cash thenSep 01 06:51
oiaohmIts still not that large Diablo-D3Sep 01 06:51
oiaohm10 k does not go far.Sep 01 06:51
_Hicham_oiaohm : freenode needs cashSep 01 06:51
Diablo-D3freenode always needs cashSep 01 06:51
Diablo-D3where have you be--....Sep 01 06:51
DaemonFCif there's tens of thousands of people on this network and they needed it that badSep 01 06:51
Diablo-D3HEY ROYSep 01 06:51
_Hicham_otherwise they will plain shut it downSep 01 06:51
Diablo-D3schestowitz: DONATE LOTS OF MONEY TO FREENODESep 01 06:51
Diablo-D3_Hicham_: lolnoSep 01 06:51
DaemonFCif everyone chipped in $1, they'd have 10 times what Canonical gaveSep 01 06:52
DaemonFCtells you how cheap people areSep 01 06:52
Diablo-D3_Hicham_: the server space is all donatedSep 01 06:52
_Hicham_Diablo-D3 : Donations should continueSep 01 06:52
Diablo-D3they actually get hundreds of thousands of dollars worth of donations every year... its just not actually in dollars, and mostly under the tableSep 01 06:52
_Hicham_especially from DaemonFCSep 01 06:52
*Diablo-D3 has actually seen freenodes books, both the cooked and uncooked onesSep 01 06:52
DaemonFCyes, I signed over a check and notorized it "The Bill and Melinda Gates Foundation", that should screw with some headsSep 01 06:53
DaemonFCyes?Sep 01 06:53
DaemonFC:)Sep 01 06:53
Diablo-D3DaemonFC: you'd be in prisonSep 01 06:53
Diablo-D3you'd be the prison bitch learning how to toss salad by force, and bill would laugh and laughSep 01 06:53
_Hicham_DaemonFC : and you know what they will do to you in prisonSep 01 06:53
oiaohmDepends he could have a company name somewhere with that name.Sep 01 06:53
DaemonFCok, how about "Donated on behalf of the Bill and Melinda Gates Foundation"?Sep 01 06:53
DaemonFCor "in the name of"?Sep 01 06:54
Diablo-D3donated in the name of god, ye not guiltySep 01 06:54
oiaohmon behalf and in the name of don't save you.Sep 01 06:54
oiaohmUnless you have company in that name.Sep 01 06:54
_Hicham_DaemonFC is dreaming of having money to donateSep 01 06:54
oiaohmWith the poor company laws around the world you most likely could take out the Bill and Melinda Gates foundation somewhere and get away with it.Sep 01 06:55
_Hicham_while he is completely brokeSep 01 06:55
DaemonFCif an organization needs to beg for money, it's not worth savingSep 01 06:55
DaemonFC:DSep 01 06:55
_Hicham_he is borrowing the internet line from his neighborsSep 01 06:55
oiaohmUbuntu advertisement is really to hope to annoy other distributions into giving money to freenode.Sep 01 06:55
oiaohmRedhat and Suse give nothing.Sep 01 06:55
_Hicham_oiaohm : who told you that ?Sep 01 06:56
DaemonFCI really doubt Red Hat gives nothingSep 01 06:56
_Hicham_RedHat and Novell supports freenodeSep 01 06:56
oiaohmIn cash.Sep 01 06:56
DaemonFCRed Hat foots the bill for a lot of the really important kernel workSep 01 06:56
_Hicham_they don't have to give in cashSep 01 06:57
DaemonFCand other projects, including the new Theora encoder that doesn't suck as badSep 01 06:57
_Hicham_did u test the new thusnelda codec ?Sep 01 06:57
DaemonFCI couldn't imagine they wouldn't donate something to FreenodeSep 01 06:57
oiaohm_Hicham_: freenode would like to see more cash.Sep 01 06:57
_Hicham_as an expert encoder ?Sep 01 06:57
Diablo-D3redhat is fucking shitSep 01 06:57
Diablo-D3they hired mingoSep 01 06:57
Diablo-D3I cant trust anything that company doesSep 01 06:57
_Hicham_Diablo-D3 : did u work for RedHat before ?Sep 01 06:57
Diablo-D3noSep 01 06:58
DaemonFC_Hicham_: Thusnelda is not h.264 quality, though it's lightyears ahead of the shit they had for an encoder marked 1.0 :PSep 01 06:58
_Hicham_why are u telling that ?Sep 01 06:58
Diablo-D3DaemonFC: I hate to break this to you, but theora sucks dickSep 01 06:58
DaemonFCsome of the problem comes from the fact that they don't own the patents to some of the features that h.264 usesSep 01 06:59
_Hicham_Diablo-D3 : you are hating everythingSep 01 06:59
Diablo-D3_Hicham_: I like h264.Sep 01 06:59
DaemonFCsome comes from the fact that Theora inherits a lot of limitations from VP6Sep 01 06:59
oiaohmYou and your Ingo Molnar hate Diablo-D3Sep 01 06:59
Diablo-D3oiaohm: mingo ruined the kernelSep 01 06:59
oiaohmHow Diablo-D3Sep 01 06:59
DaemonFCthere was some speculation that Google might open source the codecs it got when it bought that company out, including VP8Sep 01 07:00
oiaohmPlease don't be the con blow up.Sep 01 07:00
Diablo-D3oiaohm: mingo's sched really is crapSep 01 07:00
Diablo-D3con's doesnt have to be better for me to say thatSep 01 07:00
Diablo-D3DaemonFC: that'd be nice... but vp8 doesn't compete with h264Sep 01 07:00
oiaohmIt was Ingo Molnar who worked out there was something wrong with con results that the alterations to sched was not producing correct results when benched.Sep 01 07:01
DaemonFCIt seems to me that anyone that tries to make the kernel perform better is eventually chased away by Linus TorvaldsSep 01 07:01
Diablo-D3oiaohm: not true at allSep 01 07:01
oiaohmLeading to the wake up the sched could not be fixed without curing the BKL Diablo-D3Sep 01 07:01
Diablo-D3oiaohm: seen con's newest sched yet?Sep 01 07:01
Diablo-D3its almost perfectSep 01 07:01
oiaohmYes and it still not perfect.Sep 01 07:02
DaemonFCdidn't he get pissed off and leave after that?\Sep 01 07:02
Diablo-D3DaemonFC: for 2 years, yeahSep 01 07:02
Diablo-D3I dont blame himSep 01 07:02
oiaohmFool still has included hacks around locking issuses Diablo-D3Sep 01 07:02
oiaohmInstead of fixing the locks.Sep 01 07:02
Diablo-D3mingo badly reimplemented con's code without understanding themSep 01 07:02
Diablo-D3and then used money to get his patch into the kernelSep 01 07:02
Diablo-D3oiaohm: not entirely trueSep 01 07:03
oiaohmmingo saw a problem con would not listernSep 01 07:03
DaemonFCif Con Kilivas worked for Red Hat and Molnar didn't, we'd have Con's schedulerSep 01 07:03
oiaohmThe exploded.Sep 01 07:03
DaemonFCI'm pretty sure of thatSep 01 07:03
Diablo-D3mingo created a problem, he didnt see oneSep 01 07:03
Diablo-D3DaemonFC: yes.Sep 01 07:03
DaemonFC*KolivasSep 01 07:03
Diablo-D3DaemonFC: I agreeSep 01 07:03
Diablo-D3oiaohm: the problem with mingo is he never produced benchmarks that proved anythingSep 01 07:03
oiaohmmingo benches show issues.Sep 01 07:03
Diablo-D3all the benchmarks I ran myself showed con's old sched out performed everything mingo didSep 01 07:03
Diablo-D3oiaohm: thats the problem, they did not.Sep 01 07:04
oiaohmThe real-time tree developers explained what was going on.Sep 01 07:04
DaemonFCLinus Torvalds and Red Hat have to massage each otherSep 01 07:04
oiaohmNot mingo.Sep 01 07:04
Diablo-D3oiaohm: you know whats awesome about realtime linux?Sep 01 07:04
DaemonFCif your work competes with anything Red Hat is working on, theirs will be mergedSep 01 07:04
oiaohmcon and been hadding hacks working around locking issue that had been driving the real-time tree nuts.Sep 01 07:04
_Hicham_DaemonFC : of courseSep 01 07:04
Diablo-D3con's new sched actually can provide hard realtime requirements without causing undue latency to non-realtime tasksSep 01 07:04
Diablo-D3something CFS cant doSep 01 07:04
_Hicham_it is the circle of trustSep 01 07:04
_Hicham_that is how Linus worksSep 01 07:05
DaemonFCit's a circlejerk anywaySep 01 07:05
oiaohmDiablo-D3: if he had kept it clean and not added work around to locking issues as con has done with all his it would be great.Sep 01 07:05
DaemonFCmost open source projects are abandoned when the one or two key developers quitSep 01 07:05
Diablo-D3oiaohm: on con's new sched I can make -j5 and play nexuiz at the same time with no fps drop and no input lag.Sep 01 07:05
DaemonFCLinux is one of the odd exceptionsSep 01 07:05
Diablo-D3oiaohm: and btw, those "locking issues" are the kernel's problemSep 01 07:05
Diablo-D3the kernel has cleaned up most of those over the past 2 yearsSep 01 07:05
oiaohmStill 300 files to clear Diablo-D3Sep 01 07:05
oiaohmAnd there are 8 parts that have to be removed from the con new sched when they do.Sep 01 07:06
oiaohmOr it will break again.Sep 01 07:06
Diablo-D3oiaohm: its kind of sad how you fail basic software designSep 01 07:06
Diablo-D3the largest problem in the kernel isnt even the locksSep 01 07:06
DaemonFCwell, Linux is hardly a meritocracy as they claimSep 01 07:07
Diablo-D3its how apps can busy wait on io blockingSep 01 07:07
Diablo-D3thats a huge fucking problemSep 01 07:07
DaemonFCit's more of a corporatocracy than most people gatherSep 01 07:07
oiaohmio blocking is locking releated Diablo-D3Sep 01 07:07
Diablo-D3oiaohm: vaguelySep 01 07:07
Diablo-D3the problem is its handled like shit by most schedsSep 01 07:07
Diablo-D3BFS included because the kernel doesnt handle the problem properlySep 01 07:08
oiaohmYou cannot handle it with sched until you have locks not blocking the sched.Sep 01 07:08
Diablo-D3locks dont block the schedSep 01 07:08
Diablo-D3the sched uses locks internally but thats not related hereSep 01 07:08
oiaohmio locks are being set out side the sched.Sep 01 07:08
Diablo-D3io locks shouldnt existSep 01 07:09
oiaohmWhere they should not be set.Sep 01 07:09
oiaohmExactly.Sep 01 07:09
Diablo-D3which is not a sched problemSep 01 07:09
Diablo-D3its a bad kernel design problemSep 01 07:09
oiaohmYou cannot get sched right while they exist.Sep 01 07:09
Diablo-D3oiaohm: you know whats really fun?Sep 01 07:09
Diablo-D3another friend of mine is working on a solution for thatSep 01 07:09
oiaohmYou get strange reading on the performance of the sched trying to bench it with bad locks.Sep 01 07:09
Diablo-D3btw, oiaohmSep 01 07:10
oiaohmmingo was seeing something that kon was not.Sep 01 07:10
Diablo-D3on a simple busy loop 1000 thread benchmark, bfs is about 15% fasterSep 01 07:10
Diablo-D3oiaohm: noSep 01 07:10
Diablo-D3mingo was making up bullshit and wouldnt prove his argumentSep 01 07:10
Diablo-D3oiaohm: why do you troll?Sep 01 07:11
Diablo-D3you're worse than microsoft shills sometimesSep 01 07:11
oiaohmYou are aware the new one does not have lot of the strange blocks of code his old one had.Sep 01 07:11
oiaohmBecause the faults those hacks were working around no longer exist in kernel.Sep 01 07:12
Diablo-D3Im aware that the kernel has gone in the direction that con had set forth because it was the only way forwardSep 01 07:12
Diablo-D3mingo ended up not winning, con still got his waySep 01 07:12
oiaohmmingo never was against con direction.Sep 01 07:12
Diablo-D3mingo was against it the whole timeSep 01 07:12
oiaohmmingo want to find why it was benching strange.Sep 01 07:12
Diablo-D3mingo couldnt stand someone was better than himSep 01 07:12
oiaohmHe did.Sep 01 07:12
Diablo-D3mingo has a very bad ego problemSep 01 07:13
oiaohmBoth had a bad ego problem.Sep 01 07:13
oiaohmThat caused the bomb.Sep 01 07:13
_Hicham_Diablo-D3 : what a weird way to discuss kernel problemsSep 01 07:13
Diablo-D3con has a right to his egoSep 01 07:13
oiaohmmingo wanted to find out what this strangness was.Sep 01 07:13
Diablo-D3he actually knows how to codeSep 01 07:13
Diablo-D3mingo doesntSep 01 07:13
oiaohmcon wanted just to code around it and forget about it.Sep 01 07:13
oiaohmThat cause bomb.Sep 01 07:13
Diablo-D3_Hicham_: the kernel is extremely politicalSep 01 07:13
oiaohmit was going to explode.Sep 01 07:13
Diablo-D3_Hicham_: I dont like itSep 01 07:14
oiaohmLot of developers tried to mediate both mingo and con.Sep 01 07:14
oiaohmBecause they could see it coming.Sep 01 07:14
oiaohmBoth were looking at two different pictures.Sep 01 07:14
oiaohmmingo was trying to look complete system.Sep 01 07:14
oiaohmcon was tunneled visioned on on sheduler.Sep 01 07:15
oiaohmIf mingo hate con idea completely he would have never created a clone of it.Sep 01 07:15
Diablo-D3[02:21:27] <Diablo-D3> mingo couldnt stand someone was better than himSep 01 07:16
oiaohmNot true.Sep 01 07:16
Diablo-D3very trueSep 01 07:16
oiaohmcon could not explain the flux in benchmarks either.Sep 01 07:16
oiaohmIt was developers from the real-time tree that could.Sep 01 07:17
oiaohmBoth were unable to answer where the strange benching came from.Sep 01 07:17
oiaohmmingo was wantting to find out.Sep 01 07:17
oiaohmThe simple fact neither con or mingo were in the right in that complete mess.Sep 01 07:18
oiaohmBoth were incompetent in different ways.Sep 01 07:18
oiaohmcon doing add sheduler bias here and there to hide strange benching is the incorrect thing to be doing no matter how smart you are.Sep 01 07:19
_Hicham_Diablo-D3 : 01 07:19
oiaohmParticularly when you don't know what the cause is for the strange benching.Sep 01 07:20
_Hicham_I'd like to give credit to Con Kolivas for the general approach here:Sep 01 07:20
_Hicham_   he has proven via RSDL/SD that 'fair scheduling' is possible and thatSep 01 07:20
_Hicham_   it results in better desktop scheduling. Kudos Con!Sep 01 07:20
_Hicham_I don't see that there an ego issue in hereSep 01 07:20
_Hicham_based on thatSep 01 07:20
oiaohmmingo will glady take Con Kolivas back.Sep 01 07:20
oiaohmJust Con has to get over his ego.Sep 01 07:20
oiaohmHe is not always right neither are all the people around him.Sep 01 07:21
oiaohmWhen there is strangeness it has to be explained.Sep 01 07:21
oiaohmHaving +15 to -20 percent fluxs at time in scheduler was completely wrong.Sep 01 07:21
oiaohmAnd had to be fixed.Sep 01 07:21
oiaohmMingo was overly blunt with Con.   That caused some of the problem.   I think most of Con problem was lack of expermince.Sep 01 07:23
oiaohmEven Con own benchmarking tool was showing strange flux's without explain.  Diablo-D3.  Linux kernel has come a long way since his first attempt.Sep 01 07:25
oiaohmIt was Con sheduler that started the work on the monitering system threw out the Linux kernel.Sep 01 07:25
oiaohmWithout con and mingo fight development of the Linux kernel would have taken a completely different path and we would have a poor kernel today.Sep 01 07:26
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oiaohm  LOlSep 01 07:30
oiaohmkolivas has not read slob memory allocator.Sep 01 07:30
oiaohmIts also reducicuallly simple and main line.Sep 01 07:31
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zeropathI'm horrible at IRC. Can anyone help me a little ?Sep 01 07:32
zeropathI'd like to communicate with Roy Schestowitz.Sep 01 07:32
Diablo-D3oiaohm: dude, if you keep it up Im just going to put you on ignoreSep 01 07:32
Diablo-D3zeropath: talk to schestowitzSep 01 07:33
Diablo-D3hes currently afkSep 01 07:33
DaemonFC"Because it throws out the philosophy that one scheduler fits all and showsSep 01 07:33
DaemonFCthat you can do a -lot- better with a scheduler designed for a particularSep 01 07:33
DaemonFCpurpose. I don't want to use a steamroller to crack nuts."Sep 01 07:33
DaemonFCroflSep 01 07:33
DaemonFCoh dammitSep 01 07:33
zeropathwhat is afk ?Sep 01 07:33
oiaohmafk is away from keyboard zeropathSep 01 07:34
zeropaththanks, I'll try laterSep 01 07:35
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oiaohmFunny part Diablo-D3 the bfs might be all the sheduler has to be.  Reason lot of the code in the current sheduler is trying to work around performance errors.Sep 01 07:36
MinceRBig F-----g Scheduler? :>Sep 01 07:38
oiaohmYep MinceRSep 01 07:39
oiaohmtunables in the current scheduler are to try to hide work load issues.Sep 01 07:40
schestowitzbrbSep 01 07:54
**** BEGIN LOGGING AT Tue Sep 1 07:56:49 2009
*Now talking on #boycottnovellSep 01 07:56
*Topic for #boycottnovell is: Communication about anything, including Microsoft, Novell, and Free software [publicly logged]Sep 01 07:56
*Topic for #boycottnovell set by schestowitz at Fri Jun 12 18:24:05 2009Sep 01 07:56
-ChanServ-[#boycottnovell] Welcome to the #boycottnovell channelSep 01 07:56
*ChanServ gives channel operator status to schestowitzSep 01 07:57
*BNc () has joined #boycottnovellSep 01 08:00
*schestowitz is back to amarokSep 01 08:14
DaemonFCOpera 10 goes final todaySep 01 08:18
DaemonFCI've found a few more websites it doesn't render quite right and reported them allSep 01 08:19
DaemonFCthey've fixed things I've reported beforeSep 01 08:19
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-BNc/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] Comcast AstroTurfing on the Web (with Radian6) 01 08:34
schestowitzDaemonFC: ^Sep 01 08:35
DaemonFCcoolSep 01 08:36
DaemonFCI got another hit from them btwSep 01 08:36
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DaemonFChmm, the COO of CodeWeavers commented on my blogSep 01 08:55
DaemonFCand Akismet spammed itSep 01 08:55
DaemonFCI dug it back out of the spam though, weirdSep 01 08:56
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] Comes Antitrust: Microsoft McCarthyism Exposed 01 09:15
schestowitz^ After Wired's "dossiers" incident the following is worth coming to accept as reality.Sep 01 09:16
DaemonFCOpera 10's installer is only 6.5 megs, the RC was 8.5 megsSep 01 09:21
DaemonFCdebug code removed maybe?Sep 01 09:21
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] It’s Not Just Microsoft 01 10:19
oiaohmdebug and optimisation flags.Sep 01 10:20
oiaohmDevelopment you rarely turn full opt on makes error messages less useful.Sep 01 10:21
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-BNc/#boycottnovell-[davidgerard] Could one of the 3 billion women on Earth present Top Gear? Do tell the Daily Mail "yes" please forward widely!Sep 01 10:44
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schestowitzServer went downSep 01 10:56
schestowitzI wonder if anyone is awake to power it upSep 01 10:56
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schestowitzLori Drew Opinion Handed Down -- Judge Grants Motion To Dismiss on Vagueness Grounds: < >Sep 01 11:00
schestowitzThe Good And Bad Of Banks Too Big To Fail Getting Bigger... < >Sep 01 11:03
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schestowitz Sony signs Google browser deal "Google has signed a deal with Sony to incorporate its Chrome internet browser into the Japanese technology giant's personal computers."Sep 01 11:21
schestowitz 01 11:21
schestowitz"Skype is expected to be sold to a group of private investors, including Netscape co-founder Marc Andreessen and private equity firms." 01 11:23
oiaohmOpenoffice 3.1.1 is outSep 01 11:30
schestowitzyeah, since yesterdaySep 01 11:31
schestowitzBugfixes mostlySep 01 11:31
schestowitz"What’s Good For IBM... as good as it gets for America." 01 11:32
schestowitztessier's server is down ATM (with BN too)Sep 01 11:32
schestowitz 01 11:33
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*MinceR_ is now known as MinceRSep 01 11:38
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] The boycottnovell server is offline and the admin is asleep. Bad timing.Sep 01 11:38
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schestowitzJudge acquits mother in MySpace suicide case < >Sep 01 11:41
schestowitzGerman state election exit polls leaked on Twitter < >Sep 01 11:42 downtime - initial report < >Sep 01 12:09
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[davidgerard] @schestowitz heh, i thought you were being ddosed again after that press doc!Sep 01 12:23
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schestowitzGPL dominates the space yet there's stuff like this: 01 12:32
schestowitzI used PCLinuxOS last month and it was great. But "Exciting"? "Impressing"? It's software, not a vacation. Some people can be "excited" by marketing or a sense of belonging to some stereotype, but really... as long as the work gets done, that counts as a success. Didn't Torvalds call it "invisible magician" or something?Sep 01 12:40
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schestowitzMirroring Web sites with wget < >Sep 01 12:55
schestowitzKen on kde4: 01 13:01
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] Graphics Tips to Making GNU/Linux Visually Attractive 01 13:18
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] LXDE (Desktop Environment) a Top Choice for Some 01 13:26
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] Minitube (GPLv3) Bring YouTube to Desktop GNU/Linux 01 13:27
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] Overview of Top Features in Slackware GNU/Linux 01 13:30
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] SAM Linux 2009 Gets Good Review 01 13:32
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] GNU/Linux for Gamers (Supreme Super Gamer LiveDVD) in Review 01 13:33
oiaohm  Great hopefully grey goo is not around the conoerSep 01 13:37
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] Review of Vine Linux 5 01 13:38
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] Mandriva Linux to Bring Out More Surprises 01 13:39
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] Zenwalk GNU/Linux 6 Reviewed 01 13:40
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-BNc/#boycottnovell-[omar_s_hafez] Any Django programmers in Jordan?Sep 01 13:50
Omar87Anyone here tried Zenwalk?Sep 01 13:51
vermilionnnnnope, never heard of itSep 01 13:51
Omar87vermilionnnn: Really? It's pretty popular though.Sep 01 13:52
vermilionnnnomar87: Really. What is it?Sep 01 13:53
schestowitz_Goblin reviewed it recentlySep 01 13:55
schestowitzIt looks decent, but not for everyone maybeSep 01 13:55
schestowitzxfce focusedSep 01 13:55
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] Review of OpenGEU 8.10 (Ubuntu Linux + Enlightenment) 01 13:59
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] A Look at Ubuntu Linux Software Store 01 14:01
Omar87vermilionnnn: It's a Linux distro. >.>Sep 01 14:02
vermilionnnnill go take a look :)Sep 01 14:06
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] A Look Ahead at Firefox 4.0 01 14:08
vermilionnnnis the boycott novell website unaccessible for anyone else?Sep 01 14:08
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] Sub-notebooks Running GNU/Linux Only Enter the Scene 01 14:09
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] New Apache Project (Wink) Targets Rise of Web Services 01 14:10
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] Global Conference on Open Source to Have Brazil President Speak 01 14:14
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] Free (Libre) Operating System Does GUI and Apps in 3 MB 01 14:14
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] Sun Adds Openness to Blogs Using New Licensing Move 01 14:14
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-BNc/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] Sony to Preinstall Free Software Web Browser 01 14:17
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] Skype Sold 01 14:17
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] Mandelson and Microsoft Front Group Use Lies to Knock People Off the Web 01 14:18
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] Study: Patents Reduce Innovation 01 14:20
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] SCO to be Put in Hands of Lawyers, Apparently 01 14:23
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] Microsoft's B0ng Engine Spams the Web to Elevate Numbers 01 14:25
schestowitzHey, wallclimber Sep 01 14:26
wallclimberhey, good morning!Sep 01 14:27
wallclimberBN doesn't seem to be working this morningSep 01 14:28
schestowitzThe server's downSep 01 14:29
wallclimber:o(Sep 01 14:29
schestowitzI got lots of E-mail about it. I'm just waiting.Sep 01 14:30
schestowitzI doubt I can do much without the admin, can I? He'll be awake soon (6:30am there)Sep 01 14:30
wallclimberhe must live in my time zone, cuz that's what time it is hereSep 01 14:31
wallclimberwant me to go knock on his door and wake him up?  lolSep 01 14:33
wallclimber(just kidding)Sep 01 14:34
oiaohmMe see wallclimber being killed doing that.Sep 01 14:34
wallclimbermaybe I could just stand on the sidewalk and throw rocks at his windowSep 01 14:35
oiaohmEven worse.Sep 01 14:35
wallclimberwell, i'll just be patient then and go fix some coffee and toast...Sep 01 14:35
oiaohmLast time one tried that on me the picked the wrong house.Sep 01 14:36
oiaohmAnd kind got into big trouble.Sep 01 14:36
wallclimberyou had a little old lady throw rocks at your windows at 6:30 am?Sep 01 14:36
oiaohmI am a system admin.Sep 01 14:36
oiaohmSomeone though they will get me out of bed.Sep 01 14:37
wallclimberahh, so you are used to rock-throwing :o)Sep 01 14:37
oiaohmand threw rocks at a little old ladies house not mine.Sep 01 14:37
oiaohmThings end up bad.Sep 01 14:37
oiaohmRocking my place people kinda don't learn don't do that to system admin.Sep 01 14:38
oiaohmthey have the power of the computer system and can take revenge is sneeky ways.Sep 01 14:38
wallclimberwords of wisdom, for sure.Sep 01 14:39
oiaohmLike moving house and not updating business address records.Sep 01 14:39
oiaohmNot like we have to.Sep 01 14:39
MinceR*clickety click*Sep 01 14:40
MinceR;)Sep 01 14:40
oiaohmI have put my address in system as middle of a river before.Sep 01 14:40
oiaohmYes don't trust that system admins records about system admin are true and correct.Sep 01 14:41
oiaohmToo many people get smart ass ideas of digging system admins out of bed.Sep 01 14:42
oiaohmTruth is not good for house.Sep 01 14:42
MinceRyou could specify the address of a military base :>Sep 01 14:43
wallclimberYears ago I used to use call forwarding to forward my phone number to the local theater's movie schedule line on weekends...Sep 01 14:45
wallclimberI wasn't a system admin, but an art director and i got tired of getting calls from the boss on weekendsSep 01 14:46
oiaohmNo nearby militray baseSep 01 14:47
wallclimberover last minute changes and looming deadlines, and whatever small crisisSep 01 14:47
oiaohmI should specify the prision near by at some point.Sep 01 14:47
oiaohmOk that is pure mean.Sep 01 14:47
wallclimberPrison is good!  out here we have Sheriff Joe, and tent city... he's very scarySep 01 14:48
wallclimberokay, the coffee pot has finished making the coffee...anyone want a cup?Sep 01 14:49
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sdlkfjHey guys, have you finally given up trolling the internet or is it my isp?Sep 01 14:56
wallclimberMust be your isp, nobody around here does trolling...Sep 01 14:56
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[davidgerard] Vagabonds Sat 29 Aug photos up 01 14:56
sdlkfjwallclimber: heh, I meant boycottnovell.comSep 01 14:57
wallclimberI know, was just kidding...Sep 01 14:57
wallclimber:o)Sep 01 14:57
sdlkfj:DSep 01 14:57
wallclimberapparently the server is downSep 01 14:58
wallclimberfor BNSep 01 14:58
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-BNc/#boycottnovell-[davidgerard] DW/LJ: Sequencer. 01 15:58
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schestowitzAmericans continue plans to switch off the Internet < >Sep 01 16:09
schestowitzCheney Still Manipulating People -- Now In Public < >Sep 01 16:10
schestowitz"Former US Vice President Dick Cheney proclaimed once again over the weekend that he believes torture applied to war-on-terror detainees in U.S. custody after 9/11 worked brilliantly to reveal terror plots -- this despite testimony to the contrary from a CIA investigator who looked into the details of these abusive interrogations."Sep 01 16:12
schestowitz 01 16:12
schestowitz (On London's Surveillance Cameras)Sep 01 16:17
schestowitz Microsoft's global market share is only about 3% in search (and declining, still)Sep 01 16:22
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schestowitzMalware thrown on California bush fires < >Sep 01 16:30
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] Maggie Shiels (MSBBC) is advertising Microsoft again... *Sigh* She does this a lotSep 01 16:33
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-BNc/#boycottnovell-[davidgerard] @schestowitz isn't that the same MSBBC story from last week? is nothing else happening in all of britain for the BBC to talk about?Sep 01 16:40
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[davidgerard] RT @mattmckeon Adding OpenID to your site? Check out Google's user experience research: 01 16:43
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schestowitzSourceForge, Inc. Announces Departure of Jon Sobel, Group President, Media < >Sep 01 17:25
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[davidgerard] seanbaby is ridiculously funny. WoW explained using Mario: 01 17:26
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jmpnopis the site down?Sep 01 17:28
schestowitzYes, back soonSep 01 17:29
jmpnopgood to know, thanksSep 01 17:30
schestowitzbbl. If tessier gets back remind him to bring back up the serverSep 01 17:33
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tessierSo much for nagios. :(Sep 01 18:18
_Hicham_what's up tessier ?Sep 01 18:19
tessiermeh...lame server problems.Sep 01 18:19
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satiperaQuestion of the day again I am afraid, why has the site been down?Sep 01 18:30
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EruaranI don't actually agree with the "Microsoft is trashing your freedom" slogan... not fully at least.Sep 01 18:39
EruaranWhat software I run on my computer, I am ultimately responsible for. If I choose to run proprietary software from a convicted monopolist, then I am the one trashing my own freedom.Sep 01 18:40
cubezzzhmmmSep 01 18:41
cubezzzpart of that is lack of choice in the marketSep 01 18:41
cubezzzif you go to the store, what do you see? All windows computersSep 01 18:41
EruaranindeedSep 01 18:42
cubezzzrecently I realized I've been paying the microsoft tax right from the startSep 01 18:49
ThistleWebMicrosoft need to be forced to list Windows as a separate price within the bundle when you buy a PC, with a non-Windows option availableSep 01 18:50
cubezzzalmost all early home computers licensed microsoft basic and have a Microsoft (c) 1977 basic chipSep 01 18:50
ThistleWebthat way they can't hide behind the intentional customer confusion that Windows is freeSep 01 18:50
cubezzzso the only way to be certain is to build your own computerSep 01 18:50
EruaranWe build computers with no Windows tax.Sep 01 18:51
ThistleWebof course when you start to list individual parts like that, companies like Norton will go mental as they can't hide their trialware shitSep 01 18:51
ThistleWebit is bizarre to find a windows pc the same price as a Linux one, despite the windows fee being addedSep 01 18:52
cubezzzI'd still like to be able to go to some store in my own country and buy a pocket linux computerSep 01 18:52
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ThistleWeball the trialware shit preinstalled is all subsidisedSep 01 18:53
Eruarancubezzz: It will happen.Sep 01 18:53
cubezzzEruaran, yeah probably if I went to Toronto I could find oneSep 01 18:53
cubezzzthe local staples sells ipaq's with windows mobileSep 01 18:53
EruaranMicrosoft can't stop the future from coming, they can only delay it.Sep 01 18:54
EruaranewwSep 01 18:54
Eruaranipaqs have alwasys been crap imhoSep 01 18:54
cubezzzcould be, I never tried one :)Sep 01 18:55
EruaranI've known people who've had themSep 01 18:55
Eruarannever seemed very useful to meSep 01 18:55
_Hicham_Most laptops vendors force you to use WindowsSep 01 18:55
EruaranyesSep 01 18:56
ThistleWebnothing is ever completely useless, does it work as a paperweight?Sep 01 18:56
EruaranThey are afraid of Microsoft stillSep 01 18:56
EruaranThistleWeb: probablySep 01 18:56
cubezzzSharp supports Linux fairly wellSep 01 18:56
_Hicham_So you have to buy laptop prebundled with Windows, format it, and installs your favorite LinuxSep 01 18:57
EruaranI don't understand Nokia's netbook (failbook ?)... it has Windows ? What's with that ?Sep 01 18:57
cubezzzstill paying the good ol' Windows Tax then :-/Sep 01 18:57
EruaranCould buy from Zareason or System76Sep 01 18:57
wallclimberI've sent friends to "Eight Virtues" this year and, so far, everyone's been happy with their new systems...good prices tooSep 01 18:58
wallclimber 01 18:59
cubezzzI was wondering, if you buy a used laptop on ebay with windows, is the license transferable?Sep 01 18:59
cubezzznot that I want to use windows, just curiousSep 01 18:59
ThistleWebcubezzz: I dont think soSep 01 18:59
ThistleWebMS are good at making sure loopholes letting peeps avoid paying them are closedSep 01 19:00
wallclimberisn't the windows license tied to the hardware?  if so, that license should also go with the hardware when it's soldSep 01 19:00
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ThistleWebwhile ensuring loopholes that make them money are kept open, or opened for themSep 01 19:00
EruaranMicrosoft licensing for various versions of Windows and Office is deliberately labrynthine.Sep 01 19:01
ThistleWebthey've sued ebay sellers in the past for selling "illegal" versions of windows which were not illegal at allSep 01 19:02
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ThistleWebMS reserve the right to decide who can and cant sell licencesSep 01 19:02
ThistleWebso they get a cut of each oneSep 01 19:02
ThistleWebthat excludes peeps who buy a licenceSep 01 19:03
EruaranViolating the customers right to sell what he/she doesn't wantSep 01 19:03
ThistleWebhaving said that I used to work for a company who sold stuff on ebay, with the same windows licence used many many times on hardwareSep 01 19:03
ThistleWebon the basis that "ebay is like a market stall, buyers expect shit"Sep 01 19:04
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cubezzzunopened software, I see no issues with thatSep 01 19:04
cubezzzof course people sell used software all the timeSep 01 19:05
ThistleWebit's because of that, that I dont use ebaySep 01 19:05
DaemonFCcubezzz: That's kind of what turned me on to Windows 95Sep 01 19:05
ThistleWebunopened is differentSep 01 19:05
DaemonFCplenty of cheap used software at the used book storeSep 01 19:05
DaemonFCthere really is no such thing as used software for Windows now due to DRMSep 01 19:06
cubezzzI hated the win95 era, but commodore was dying and what do that leave? clone pcs with dozeSep 01 19:07
DaemonFCI think a lot of the value in having a copy of Windows went away because there's no longer a used software market for itSep 01 19:07
DaemonFCI mean, who wants to pay ten times as much for something just cause it's still shrink wrapped?Sep 01 19:07
cubezzzlate 90's there was BeOS but of course BeOS wasn't FOSSSep 01 19:07
ThistleWebas the board of MS will tell you, it's not whether it's against the law that matters, it's what the penalty is if you get caught that countsSep 01 19:07
DaemonFCI had that, they had the version that used the loopmounted file systemSep 01 19:07
DaemonFCand it lived on your Windows partitionSep 01 19:08
cubezzzit's funny, I never felt I was payin the "Commodore Tax" when I bought an AmigaSep 01 19:08
ThistleWebwhat else could you install on an amiga?Sep 01 19:08
DaemonFCit's ridiculous, the penalty for selling unlicensed software can be as high as robbing a bank with a machine gunSep 01 19:08
DaemonFCthat's just not rightSep 01 19:08
cubezzzwell, with an MMU Linux is possible, but early Amigas didn't have MMUsSep 01 19:09
cubezzzthere was a Unix Commodore machine, I forget which one that wasSep 01 19:09
DaemonFCschestowitz: I've got more hits from Radian6, I wonder what they're saying on the "conversation page" I can't log intoSep 01 19:10
DaemonFCobviously that post is bothering someone at ComcastSep 01 19:10
MinceRthere's ucLinux for MMU-less architecturesSep 01 19:11
cubezzzin the 90's I actually bought Minix from Prentice HallSep 01 19:11
cubezzzcouldn't make it work very well :)Sep 01 19:11
cubezzzso I defnitely tried many times to escape the Windows Tax BSSep 01 19:11
DaemonFCMINIX is easy to run in a VMSep 01 19:12
cubezzzfinally got rid of microsoft from my machines in 2003Sep 01 19:12
DaemonFCMINIX is not really adequate for your primary OS, it is fun to play around with or maybe learn something about OS design from, that was the pointSep 01 19:12
cubezzzyeah, I can do the learning part on Linux or NFS or embedix, tons of stuff nowSep 01 19:13
MinceRDaemonFC: earlier you said that minix was omfg-greatSep 01 19:13
MinceRDaemonFC: make up your mind alreadySep 01 19:13
DaemonFCit is, as in, there's a lot of great ideas in its designSep 01 19:14
DaemonFCnot great as in "There's a lot of third party software or driver support"Sep 01 19:15
DaemonFC"great" as in, I wish Linux could..."Resurrect unresponsive services", "Restart drivers that crash without having the whole system just freeze", etc.Sep 01 19:16
cubezzzDaemonFC, we can, with modulesSep 01 19:16
DaemonFCmaybeSep 01 19:16
cubezzzI use rmmod when neededSep 01 19:16
DaemonFCif it's not running in the kernelSep 01 19:16
DaemonFCthe design of MINIX is such that pretty much all drivers run outside of the kernelSep 01 19:17
cubezzzI've had uptimes of over 200 days on this boxSep 01 19:17
DaemonFCI mean obviously things like your keyboard will have to run in the kernelSep 01 19:17
DaemonFCbut 99.9% of MINIX drivers would run in user space where they can be killed and restartedSep 01 19:18
DaemonFCyou must not have done anything mischievous thenSep 01 19:18
DaemonFCsometimes the idea behind crash resilience is that you're protecting the user from something they maybe should not have doneSep 01 19:19
cubezzzit's loaded, tv tuner, tons of usb devices, play games, it runs a server 24/7Sep 01 19:19
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DaemonFCyeah, tell me what Linux does when your video driver diesSep 01 19:19
cubezzzI restart XSep 01 19:20
DaemonFCDo you (A) Hold in the power button, (B) Curse and hold in the power button, or (C) There is no option CSep 01 19:20
cubezzzor at worst, I ssh in and restart XSep 01 19:20
cubezzzand I can ssh in from multiple devices too :)Sep 01 19:21
DaemonFCI mean when the kernel portion of the driver dies and the system freezes and the last 0.1 seconds of any audio that was playing starts skippingSep 01 19:21
DaemonFCI mean, when your video driver dies and takes out the rest of the system with shrapnelSep 01 19:21
cubezzzsince 2003, I can't recall that happeningSep 01 19:22
DaemonFCif it's *just* the X portion that's having a problem, then restarting X can sometimes work, of course you still lose all the files you have open that you haven't savedSep 01 19:22
DaemonFCso you end up losing everything even though the system didn't technically totally failSep 01 19:23
cubezzzeven if the video fails, that doesn't mean I'm going to lose dataSep 01 19:24
DaemonFCyeah you will, killing and restarting X kills everything you had open in itSep 01 19:24
cubezzzI'm a good Linux peep, I use text files for most of my dataSep 01 19:24
DaemonFCso what if I'm playing a game, and in the background, I have some incoming instant messages in the queue that I haven't read and a text file open that I am working on?Sep 01 19:25
DaemonFCthey're just gone (unless the text editor triggered an auto save"Sep 01 19:25
DaemonFC*)Sep 01 19:25
*cubezzz shrugsSep 01 19:25
cubezzzit's only a gameSep 01 19:26
cubezzzit's probably a good idea to separate the important stuff from the game stuffSep 01 19:26
DaemonFCI suppose Pidgin does conveniently log all your messages in case the police ever confiscate your computerSep 01 19:26
DaemonFCso maybe that saves youSep 01 19:26
DaemonFC:DSep 01 19:26
MinceRDaemonFC: it's strange then that you praise Minix for the same things you berate Hurd for.Sep 01 19:27
MinceRdouble standards?Sep 01 19:27
DaemonFCNo, the only thing I have against HURD is the licenseSep 01 19:27
DaemonFCthat's why it will never run on more than a few pieces of hardware that the FSF itself writes drivers forSep 01 19:28
cubezzzwith a really good UPS and a good power supply a Linux box can be very reliableSep 01 19:28
DaemonFCthe design goals are good, they'll just never reach them with exactly 3-4 people working on the entire systemSep 01 19:28
DaemonFCMinceR: HURD is like saying "I want to develop a car that runs on the static electricity in the air"Sep 01 19:29
DaemonFC"I want that and I want to restrict the development team to myself and 2-3 other people with no outside help or funding"Sep 01 19:29
DaemonFCthe end product that I've envisioned is perfect, everyone on Earth could use one, and I've immediately ensured it never happens due to setting the goals too high and restricting my development methodologySep 01 19:30
cubezzzBeOS was kind of pie-in-the-sky tooSep 01 19:31
DaemonFCLinux is more like "How do we make a gasoline engine three times more efficient, and anyone can help us do it"Sep 01 19:31
DaemonFCthe goal isn't as lofty and anyone can help, so maybe it could get doneSep 01 19:31
ThistleWebto be fair Vista being a great success as a much adored lightweight Windows was also pie in the sky :PSep 01 19:32
cubezzzit's done, it's here, I built my own box and I'm using it on 3 machinesSep 01 19:32
schestowitztessier: yay! You're back :-)Sep 01 19:33
DaemonFCWindows 7 does not use as much RAM as Vista, I don't know how they've done that, but they have. It still uses an inappropriate amount though.Sep 01 19:33
DaemonFCDWM doesn't seem to bloat up anymore, it hovers around 6-10 megs of RAM used, in Vista it could balloon to over 200Sep 01 19:34
MinceRit must be really difficult to use less RAM than vista, vista is so efficient when it comes to RAM, right? oh, wait...Sep 01 19:35
cubezzznow I'm wondering if SL-5500 had an MMUSep 01 19:35
MinceRDaemonFC: yeah, because that license doomed GNU/Linux as we can seeSep 01 19:35
cubezzzlolSep 01 19:35
DaemonFCMinceR: No it didn't because Torvalds isn't a nut caseSep 01 19:36
DaemonFCand won't use GPL 3 eitherSep 01 19:36
DaemonFCpretty much every FSF project tends to wither and die once the maintainer or two abandons itSep 01 19:36
MinceRbtw it's kind of strange to judge the quality of software based on its licenseSep 01 19:37
DaemonFCthere's some notable exceptionsSep 01 19:37
MinceRone might say it's insaneSep 01 19:37
DaemonFCnot reallySep 01 19:37
MinceRyes, all FSF projects withered and diedSep 01 19:37
DaemonFCnobody can work on HURD because the FSF hates corporations contributing to their stuffSep 01 19:37
MinceRprojects like the GNU utilities and emacsSep 01 19:37
MinceRoh, and gcc and glibcSep 01 19:37
DaemonFCso things that work fine on Linux would never be acceptedSep 01 19:37
MinceRnobody ever works with FSF, as you can seeSep 01 19:37
cubezzzI think gcc was important :)Sep 01 19:38
DaemonFCMinceR: Look what they did to their Linux without "binary blobs"Sep 01 19:38
MinceRperhaps you'd understand a bit more of the world if you pulled your head out of all that anti-FSF bullshit coming from m$Sep 01 19:38
DaemonFCsee if you can make that work on anythingSep 01 19:38
MinceRi can make it work on anything, because PCs tend to be compatible with some basic thingsSep 01 19:38
DaemonFCLinus Torvalds once said you don't want him designing your GUISep 01 19:38
MinceRbut it definitely won't use the hardware to its full powerSep 01 19:38
DaemonFCGNU desgning your kernel would be a larger disaster I'm sureSep 01 19:38
DaemonFCwell, if you boot up the FSF's version of Linux, there goes half your hardware supportSep 01 19:39
DaemonFCso if you want your computer to run like a stroke victim, just use an FSF-approved kernelSep 01 19:39
*ThistleWeb shakes headSep 01 19:39
DaemonFCHey, I'm not making this up, take ten off the shelf computers and boot them up on the FSF-approved Linux then the real Linux and see what worksSep 01 19:40
MinceRif you like binary blobs so much, just use vista and go awaySep 01 19:40
DaemonFCI don't even think one will fully work with the FSF's LinuxSep 01 19:40
MinceRalso, shut up because (as usual) you have no idea what you're talking aboutSep 01 19:41
ThistleWebMinceR: he's going nowhere, he's a celeb hereSep 01 19:41
cubezzzNFS ftwSep 01 19:41
MinceRi'd say you could think of where GNU/Linux would have gotten with a "sure, just give us binary blobs, they're fine" attitudeSep 01 19:41
MinceRbut you've already shown that you can't thinkSep 01 19:41
DaemonFCyou'd lose over 2/3rds of your wifi driversSep 01 19:41
DaemonFChalf your NIC driversSep 01 19:41
DaemonFCalmost all of your video driversSep 01 19:41
cubezzzI'm sure coding a video driver is pretty hardSep 01 19:42
DaemonFCnearly all your 3g card supportSep 01 19:42
MinceRand what would you lose if you had allowed all hardware vendors to provide proprietary drivers?Sep 01 19:42
ThistleWebon the other hand, just because he has his place set in stone here does not mean that anyone has to respond to himSep 01 19:42
MinceRhint: ATI has already stopped supporting several of its GPUsSep 01 19:42
DaemonFCnot if you want crippled 2d-only drivers like they provideSep 01 19:42
MinceRalso, who would update the bttv driver to work with the newest kernel?Sep 01 19:43
DaemonFCMinceR: Nvidia still supports cards they sold 10 years agoSep 01 19:43
DaemonFCnice try thoughSep 01 19:43
DaemonFCmaybe when they don'Sep 01 19:43
DaemonFC*don'tSep 01 19:43
MinceRsadly, nobody makes such tuner cards anymoreSep 01 19:43
DaemonFCI'll careSep 01 19:43
cubezzzI'm sure there must be some FOSS video drivers somewhereSep 01 19:43
MinceRDaemonFC: news flash, nvidia isn't the only gpu manufacturer in the worldSep 01 19:43
DaemonFCthe only one that makes cards worth buyingSep 01 19:43
MinceRDaemonFC: also, you might want to check out how intel handles its gpu driversSep 01 19:43
DaemonFCATI cards are crap anywaySep 01 19:44
cubezzzMinceR, I was looking at the source for bttv just a week ago :)Sep 01 19:44
DaemonFCIntel doesn't have any real GPUsSep 01 19:44
MinceRthen what do they have?Sep 01 19:44
DaemonFCjust motherboard videoSep 01 19:44
MinceRperhaps you've forgot that not all PCs are gaming rigs?Sep 01 19:44
DaemonFCit's shitty and basic and you can't really use it for anythingSep 01 19:44
MinceRi guess in m$ world they areSep 01 19:44
DaemonFCI mean real video cardsSep 01 19:44
MinceRafter all there's no serious work you can trust winblows withSep 01 19:44
DaemonFCIntel video is pretty backwards anywaySep 01 19:45
DaemonFCfor the longest time they didn't even support DirectX 9Sep 01 19:45
DaemonFC(til like 2004 or so)Sep 01 19:45
MinceRyour central nervous system is pretty backwards too, yet you still keep getting unbannedSep 01 19:45
MinceRi don't support directx eitherSep 01 19:46
DaemonFCNobody would willingly use Intel video except maybe on a crappy bargain laptopSep 01 19:46
MinceRyeah, nobody cares about battery lifeSep 01 19:46
MinceRoh, waitSep 01 19:46
ThistleWebMinceR: just because he is somehow allowed to be the resident troll, that only works if people actually talk to himSep 01 19:46
DaemonFCat least Nvidia's integrated chipsets on a laptop perform several times betterSep 01 19:46
MinceRThistleWeb: someone will talk to him, even if i don'tSep 01 19:46
ThistleWebso let themSep 01 19:47
MinceRThistleWeb: the only real way to handle trolls is to permban themSep 01 19:47
MinceRwith extreme prejudiceSep 01 19:47
MinceRand preferably to kill them with fireSep 01 19:47
MinceR(fire blocks their regeneration)Sep 01 19:47
DaemonFCIntel videio is good enough reason to totally avoid a laptopSep 01 19:47
DaemonFCespecially if you want your money's worthSep 01 19:47
DaemonFC*videoSep 01 19:47
wallclimberlol, ThistleWeb, I've seen DaemonFC continue talking on and on and on, when no one at all responds...ignoring doesn't work on himSep 01 19:47
ThistleWebit would be funny if nobody talked to himSep 01 19:47
DaemonFCunless you can get it really really insanely cheapSep 01 19:47
MinceRDaemonFC: so why don't you just buy an xbox360 instead?Sep 01 19:47
ThistleWebwallclimber: yeah I don't get why he isn't bannedSep 01 19:48
ThistleWeb....againSep 01 19:48
DaemonFCI just don't get why people say "zOMG! Intel like totally works!!!11" when Intel is not even competing with NvidiaSep 01 19:49
MinceRbtw, those intel GPUs you hate so much already have DRI2 and KMS support in their drivers and work out of the box with LinuxSep 01 19:49
MinceRand you'll never guess whySep 01 19:49
DaemonFCnice, so my screen won't flicker before the system boots up and performs like shit?Sep 01 19:49
DaemonFCsweetSep 01 19:49
MinceRso you can still use your system even if crashesSep 01 19:49
MinceRfor example.Sep 01 19:49
wallclimberi think he has problems sometimes and sort of gets lost in his own world...Sep 01 19:49
MinceRhe got lost in m$ WorldSep 01 19:50
DaemonFCso it can come back up and I still can't use the system for anything beyond trivial anyway?Sep 01 19:50
ThistleWebwallclimber: that maybe so, but does he have to transport the rest of us to his own world?Sep 01 19:50
MinceRso you can restart the x serverSep 01 19:50
DaemonFCthat's like saying you'll never crash because Intel won't get you off the groundSep 01 19:50
ThistleWebit's like an island with no boatsSep 01 19:50
MinceRjust like how a certain microkernel can restart services that have crashedSep 01 19:50
MinceRwhich you happened to likeSep 01 19:50
ThistleWebwhere it's always pissing down with rainSep 01 19:50
MinceR...because that microkernel wasn't GPLedSep 01 19:50
MinceRstrange standards thereSep 01 19:51
DaemonFChas nothing to do with itSep 01 19:51
DaemonFCGPL 2 is fineSep 01 19:51
wallclimberwell, I just keep my feet firmly planted and do my best to not get swept away :o)Sep 01 19:51
MinceRit was fine before the sw standards game startedSep 01 19:51
DaemonFCit's not *just* the GPL 3 license that ensures HURD is a dead endSep 01 19:51
MinceRand before tivoization was discoveredSep 01 19:51
DaemonFCit's the whackos at the FSF who won't accept any driversSep 01 19:51
ThistleWeball you can do is stick a deck chair out and swap the parasol for an umbrella huh?Sep 01 19:51
MinceRsomehow the sense of "free software" people had back then was acceptable to you?Sep 01 19:51
MinceRor only now that m$ and some other bastards have found some ways to circumvent it?Sep 01 19:51
wallclimberlolSep 01 19:51
MinceR"free software" is only good if your friends at m$ can steal it and give nothing back?Sep 01 19:52
DaemonFCthey're busy chasing away the only people that could make HURD a successSep 01 19:52
DaemonFCwith their religious, anti-corporate zealSep 01 19:52
MinceRit's only good if someone can make hardware that will screw its user at some time?Sep 01 19:52
MinceR(just like a certain xerox printer RMS was using did?)Sep 01 19:52
wallclimberThistleWeb, he does seem to have a knack for pushing other people's buttons and until he gets a responseSep 01 19:52
DaemonFCsoftware dictating the hardware it runs on is exactly the behavior you knock MS overSep 01 19:52
*Lns has quit ("Φ")Sep 01 19:53
DaemonFCbut it's OK when the FSF does itSep 01 19:53
DaemonFCthe GPL 3 is it's own form of DRMSep 01 19:53
ThistleWebmaybe he's a sposored trollSep 01 19:53
MinceRsoftware dictating how the hardware works is how they workSep 01 19:53
wallclimberOn that note, I'm heading back to work...take care allSep 01 19:53
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MinceRit has nothing to do with anyone's strategySep 01 19:53
DaemonFCGPL 3 is a form of DRM and you can't weasel your way out of that oneSep 01 19:53
MinceRand now you're just spouting more idiotic nonsenseSep 01 19:53
MinceRwho's feeding you this bullshit anyway?Sep 01 19:54
DaemonFCDigital Restrictions Management includes dictating where it can be used and who can use itSep 01 19:54
DaemonFCthat's what the GPL 3 doesSep 01 19:54
MinceRthink that over again.Sep 01 19:54
DaemonFCthe GPL 3 is as damaging to software as Fairplay and Windows Media DRM are to musicSep 01 19:54
MinceRthe point of GPLv3 is that the _owner_ of the hardware can dictate how that hardware will workSep 01 19:55
DaemonFCif they want to masturbate around that license with their own software that will never go anywhere it's OK, they have the rightSep 01 19:55
MinceRthe point of DRM is that the person who bought the content is kept from controlling how it will workSep 01 19:55
MinceRthey're precisely against each otherSep 01 19:55
DaemonFCbut it's not "free" software by their own definitionSep 01 19:55
MinceRif you want to masturbate about your dreams how you'll become another ballmer in the future and rip people off, feel free to do so...elsewhere.Sep 01 19:56
MinceRyour crapflood is not welcome here.Sep 01 19:56
DaemonFCand to say it's anything close to free software when you tell what hardware it can and can't run on is hypocrisy at bestSep 01 19:56
MinceRit never was.Sep 01 19:56
MinceRthe only reason you were unbanned was some inexplicable hope that this time you won't crapflood the channelSep 01 19:56
MinceRevery time Roy was proven wrong about it.Sep 01 19:56
DaemonFCMinceR:  Wasn't "free software" supposed to be used by anyone for any purpose?Sep 01 19:56
DaemonFCthat's not what GPL 3 lets you doSep 01 19:56
MinceRyes, and "anyone" happens to include the userSep 01 19:57
MinceRwho happened to pay for that particular piece of hardware you desperately want to keep out of his controlSep 01 19:57
DaemonFCno it doesn'tSep 01 19:57
DaemonFCthey're dictating third party hardwareSep 01 19:57
DaemonFCnot just what can be done with their softwareSep 01 19:57
DaemonFCthey've crossed the line with thatSep 01 19:57
MinceRi guess in your dictatoric vision people paying for something will get nothing for their moneySep 01 19:57
MinceRno control, no ownershipSep 01 19:57
DaemonFCit's like Microsoft reaching beyond Windows and designing your MP3 player hardware with their limitationsSep 01 19:58
DaemonFCGPL 3 is the exact same behaviorSep 01 19:58
MinceRno, FSF isn't dictating anything third-partySep 01 19:58
MinceRthe authors of software decide that their work must remain free softwareSep 01 19:58
MinceRthat's all it's aboutSep 01 19:58
DaemonFCif they buy crippled hardware, they deserve itSep 01 19:58
DaemonFCit's not about the software anymore at that pointSep 01 19:58
MinceRyou apparently insist on maintaining that crippled hardwareSep 01 19:58
DaemonFCthe FSF is trying to go beyond the area they have authority overSep 01 19:59
DaemonFCand establish their terms for third party hardware that they don't ownSep 01 19:59
MinceRbtw, they can make crippled hardware, as long as they don't rip off the work of those who wanted their work to be used in ethical waysSep 01 19:59
MinceRnobody is forcing you to put GNU/Linux on your DRM-laden piece of crap hardwareSep 01 19:59
DaemonFCI'd say it's unethical for me to try to exercise authority over something I don't have any authority overSep 01 19:59
DaemonFCthey don't get thatSep 01 19:59
MinceRyou can put windows on it and screw your customers all the way you wantSep 01 19:59
DaemonFCthey have no authority over the hardware you run it onSep 01 19:59
MinceRyou even get to pay license fees to your favorite criminalsSep 01 20:00
DaemonFCto even say they do makes their software nonfreeSep 01 20:00
MinceRa software developer has no authority over a derivative work that's based on his work?Sep 01 20:00
DaemonFCWhat if they said "Nobody with an Nvidia card can run our OS"?Sep 01 20:00
MinceRthat's an interesting interpretation of copyright :>Sep 01 20:00
DaemonFC"Nobody with a Broadcom wifi adapter"Sep 01 20:00
MinceRthat wouldn't be free softwareSep 01 20:00
MinceRsee freedom 0Sep 01 20:00
DaemonFCsame thingSep 01 20:00
*cubezzz ughsSep 01 20:00
DaemonFCthey anulled freedom 0 with GPL 3Sep 01 20:01
MinceRand they aren't saying itSep 01 20:01
MinceRno they didn'tSep 01 20:01
MinceRthey merely kept others from annulling _all four_ freedomsSep 01 20:01
MinceRwith their new tricksSep 01 20:01
DaemonFCgoes beyond their authority and it's a good thing for real free software that Linus Torvalds wasn't duped into following along with thatSep 01 20:01
DaemonFCit's like helping them in spite of themselves to keep Linux GPL 2Sep 01 20:02
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MinceRno, it doesn't go beyond their authoritySep 01 20:02
MinceRthey didn't choose to GPL3 software they didn't createSep 01 20:02
DaemonFCI would consider GPL 3 to be in the same fake free software category as the Microsoft shared source licensesSep 01 20:02
ThistleWebpart of the issues every project had in moving from gpl2 to hpl3 was getting permission from everyone who contributed even a line of codeSep 01 20:03
DaemonFCand their MS-PL bullshitSep 01 20:03
ThistleWebtracking people down etcSep 01 20:03
MinceRyou would consider anything to be "fake free software" that your idols can't rip off freely in some waySep 01 20:03
MinceRit's just like m$ whining about copyleft because they can't rip it off like they rip off BSDL all the timeSep 01 20:03
DaemonFCThistleWeb: It's good that the Linux maintainers won't do it tooSep 01 20:03
DaemonFCgood for everyone that they won'tSep 01 20:04
ThistleWebI'd imagine plenty of projects would like to go GPL3 but can't find everyone to get permissionSep 01 20:04
MinceRthey won't do it because there's a lot of inertia inherent in the systemSep 01 20:04
DaemonFCgood for users, good for developmentSep 01 20:04
MinceRand because they have been corruptedSep 01 20:04
MinceRgregkh getting to make decisions about the kernel shows how corrupted the leadership of the project has becomeSep 01 20:04
DaemonFCand I would consider a company using Linux as an integrated component a user of that softwareSep 01 20:04
DaemonFCso you're trampling over their freedom to adjust it to their needs tooSep 01 20:04
MinceRthey need to trample over the freedom of their users?Sep 01 20:05
MinceRand i must let them/Sep 01 20:05
MinceR?Sep 01 20:05
DaemonFCthe license also states that I, as a user of that hardware, have the right to  modify the software in suc ha way to suit my needsSep 01 20:05
DaemonFCcould that be bypassing their DRM module?Sep 01 20:05
MinceRbut you wish you couldn'tSep 01 20:05
MinceRindeed it could beSep 01 20:05
MinceRcome on, tell us how great DRM isSep 01 20:06
MinceRand how lucky we are that we can have itSep 01 20:06
DaemonFCthe hardware maker distributed Linux components with that right involved to meSep 01 20:06
DaemonFCso I would say that legally, I inherited the right to modify it to ignore the DRM hardware, from the manufacturerSep 01 20:06
MinceRso?Sep 01 20:06
DaemonFCso the FSF can mince words all they want, but in the end, they've removed the freedom to modify it to suit the user's needsSep 01 20:07
MinceRwhat.Sep 01 20:07
DaemonFCsuiting the user's needs is a broad term "So maybe if we only remove the ability to modify it to certain ends, it's OK"Sep 01 20:08
DaemonFC:)Sep 01 20:08
DaemonFCthat's their line of thinkingSep 01 20:08
MinceRthe user doesn't know what he needs so we must constrain him?Sep 01 20:08
DaemonFCbut unfortunately, it defies every word in "freedom 0"Sep 01 20:08
MinceRunfortunately, you're full of shitSep 01 20:08
DaemonFCThe freedom to run the program, for any purpose (freedom 0).Sep 01 20:09
DaemonFCso you don't see how GPL 3 stops you from doing that?Sep 01 20:09
MinceRwhat purpose does the ability to circumvent DRM deny you?Sep 01 20:09
trmancolol @ MinceRSep 01 20:09
DaemonFCyou'd have to be pretty dense to see that the GPL 3 is a contradictionSep 01 20:09
DaemonFC*to not seeSep 01 20:09
MinceRyou'd have to be pretty dense to believe all the bullshit you've just saidSep 01 20:09
DaemonFCwell, it's an obvious contradiction and by contradicting freedom 0, GPL 3 software is no longer free softwareSep 01 20:10
MinceRit must be obvious to the "initiated" onlySep 01 20:10
DaemonFCbecause it defies what's supposed to be their most important core principleSep 01 20:10
MinceRyou can't explain it thoughSep 01 20:10
DaemonFCThe freedom to study how the program works, and change it to make it do what you wish (freedom 1).Sep 01 20:10
DaemonFCit also defies freedom 1 because you can't make the software do what you wishSep 01 20:10
DaemonFCThe freedom to redistribute copies so you can help your neighbor (freedom 2).Sep 01 20:11
MinceRperhaps your point is that you believe that the hw manufacturer couldn't modify the software because the user could still modify it afterwards?Sep 01 20:11
MinceRand you don't see how that's wrong?Sep 01 20:11
DaemonFCIt defies freedom 2 becasue they can't redistribute it to their neighbors without violating 0 and 1Sep 01 20:11
DaemonFCThe freedom to improve the program, and release your improvements (and modified versions in general) to the public, so that the whole community benefits (freedom 3).Sep 01 20:11
MinceRwhat is the glass you've drank the kool-aid from made of?Sep 01 20:11
DaemonFCWell, they can do that as long as they follow the GPL 3 which removed freedom 0, 1, and 2Sep 01 20:12
MinceRit must be something pretty tough to withstand thatSep 01 20:12
DaemonFCso the GPL 3 directly defies their definition of free software, but look at it this waySep 01 20:12
DaemonFCthey could always redifine free software to say that the FSF has veto power over the 4 freedomsSep 01 20:13
DaemonFCwhich is really what they've done anywaySep 01 20:13
MinceRcan you explain that?Sep 01 20:13
MinceRhow you've arrived at that conclusion?Sep 01 20:13
DaemonFCalready did, quite sufficientlySep 01 20:13
MinceRnot quiteSep 01 20:13
MinceRi've made one guess at it but you've ignored itSep 01 20:14
MinceR211953 < MinceR> perhaps your point is that you believe that the hw manufacturer couldn't modify the software because the user could still modify it afterwards?Sep 01 20:14
DaemonFCOK, see if you can folow me hereSep 01 20:14
DaemonFCItem 1: The four freedoms "define" free software as the FSF sees it, correct?Sep 01 20:14
MinceRcorrectSep 01 20:14
DaemonFCUse for any purpose and modified by anyone to meet those purposes is a core principle of the four freedoms, correct?Sep 01 20:15
MinceRmore or lessSep 01 20:15
DaemonFCGPL 3 restricts the hardware that the software may be used on, which violates those core principles, would you agree? (if not, why? How?)Sep 01 20:15
DaemonFCWhen it says any purpose and modified by anyone, how does that not include corporations modifying it to meet their needs?Sep 01 20:16
DaemonFCand it's not just Tivo and user exploitative bullshit that uses the prohibited hardware btwSep 01 20:17
DaemonFCit could very well just be me using hardware encryption to protect my data from an oppressive government that could seize my computerSep 01 20:17
DaemonFCand GPL 3's blanket embargo on said hardware prevents me from making such a deviceSep 01 20:18
MinceRhow would hardware encryption prevent modified software from running?Sep 01 20:18
MinceRdo you honestly believe that you can protect a computer from intrusion when physical access is already achieved?Sep 01 20:18
DaemonFCthe same class of device that enforces DRM could also be used as a personal data encryption deviceSep 01 20:18
DaemonFCsuch as the Iron KeySep 01 20:18
MinceRthe key question is not whether the software can be replaced but rather who can replace itSep 01 20:19
MinceRi think the point is that the owner of the hardware should get to chooseSep 01 20:19
DaemonFCMinceR: Would you say that since hardware encryption and self destruct capabilities of the Iron Key being theoretically possible to bypass means that people in the PRC should run down the street with printouts of their documents shouting "Long live the Falun Gong!"?Sep 01 20:20
DaemonFCthat would be quite ridiculous don't you think?Sep 01 20:20
MinceRwhatSep 01 20:20
DaemonFCso the GPL 3 will actually damage legitimate uses of exactly the kind of hardware people need to protect sensitive data from overzealous governments and the likeSep 01 20:21
DaemonFCso it took their freedom awaySep 01 20:21
DaemonFCbecause someone wanted to record American Gladiators on their Tivo?Sep 01 20:22
MinceRso you believe such hardware can't restrict its firmware upgrades to their owners?Sep 01 20:22
MinceR(at least to the degree they're tamperproof)Sep 01 20:22
DaemonFCif it does, I believe that the owner has the right to bypass said restrictionsSep 01 20:22
neighborlee < how is that worse than gpl2, I dont see itSep 01 20:22
MinceR(if we consider the case when the tamperproofing has been broken, any hardware meets the requirements)Sep 01 20:23
MinceRi think the owner and _only_ the owner has that rightSep 01 20:23
neighborleeAnother threat that GPLv3 resists is that of patent deals like the Novell-Microsoft deal. < again tell me how thats worse ?Sep 01 20:23
MinceRuntil he willingly gives others that rightSep 01 20:23
DaemonFCI would agree with the GPL 3 if the license said "By redistributing this software with a device that implements DRM, you are assigning the end user of the device the legal right to circumvent the DRM"Sep 01 20:23
MinceRthen the mafiaa would simply rename DRMSep 01 20:24
MinceRand keep using itSep 01 20:24
DaemonFCI don't agree with "You may not use this software with hardware devices that match the following description..."Sep 01 20:24
MinceRthat's no solutionSep 01 20:24
neighborleeDaemonFC, you already canSep 01 20:24
neighborleeDaemonFC, tivoizationSep 01 20:24
DaemonFCthe GPL 3 could have been much betterSep 01 20:24
MinceRbtw, even in the case of GPL2, you can get into situations where the license doesn't allow you to use the covered worksSep 01 20:25
DaemonFCit could have given the users the right to crack the tivo-ish DRM while protecting the freedoms it inadvertently tramplesSep 01 20:25
MinceRfor example if you link it together with code under an incompatible licenseSep 01 20:25
DaemonFCI think they tried to do the right thing and went about it the wrong waySep 01 20:25
MinceR213351 < DaemonFC> it could have given the users the right to crack the tivo-ish DRM while protecting the freedoms it inadvertently tramplesSep 01 20:25
MinceRhow?Sep 01 20:25
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] Microsoft Reporter Believes Vista 7 and Office 2010 Keep Getting Worse with ‘Ribbons’ 01 20:25
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] Boycott Novell is back online (server issue). We had some decent posts today, so try again if failed earlier.Sep 01 20:25
schestowitzDaemonFC: radian and Visible are some of the big players in their TurfSep 01 20:26
schestowitzI believe Radian6 are the biggestSep 01 20:26
DaemonFCby not restricting the hardware it ships on, but forcing the companies to license the right to bypass the DRMSep 01 20:26
MinceRkeep in mind that 1) referring to names such as "DRM" is ineffective and 2) some people are very inventive about circumventing these restrictions (see the "covenant not to sue" trick)Sep 01 20:26
schestowitzI learned about them while researching VisibleSep 01 20:26
*schestowitz gives channel operator status to EruaranSep 01 20:26
MinceRfreedom is not "lack of restrictions whatsoever", btwSep 01 20:26
DaemonFCMinceR: You would effectively neutralize the DRM and at the same time, things like hardware encryption chips are unaffectedSep 01 20:26
*schestowitz removes channel operator status from schestowitzSep 01 20:27
MinceRDaemonFC: so, until you come up with effective legalese language that does what you say the GPLv3 should do, it remains the best tool for the job.Sep 01 20:27
DaemonFCthere's no reason other than possibly legal, why DRM cracking on a wide scale is suppressed anywaySep 01 20:27
DaemonFCthis would make it not even worth their time and trouble to try to DRM their hardwareSep 01 20:27
DaemonFCMinceR: A good compromise means that nobody involved gets exactly what they want, but they do get an agreement they can all deal withSep 01 20:29
DaemonFCGPL 3 in its current form is dangerous because it puts a blanket ban on certain types of possibly benign hardwareSep 01 20:29
MinceRDaemonFC: what you're suggesting is where the people who want DRM and tivoization get what they want under different names and the rest of us get nothingSep 01 20:30
DaemonFCif it's dangerous and it would scare companies away from helping to develop Linux, Linux won't use itSep 01 20:30
MinceRDaemonFC: that's not a good compromiseSep 01 20:30
DaemonFCso their goals are not met at all anywaySep 01 20:30
MinceRDaemonFC: once again, see the "covenant not to sue" trickSep 01 20:30
schestowitzAnother Novell major just quit :-)Sep 01 20:30
schestowitzShe's leaving her 10-y-o company where she was CEOSep 01 20:31
MinceRthe benign kinds of hardware you've mentioned remain workable and compatible with GPLv3 if implemented correctlySep 01 20:31
neighborleeschestowitz, nice ;)Sep 01 20:31
neighborleeschestowitz, well I mean I hope she becomes gainfully employed etc, but niceSep 01 20:31
DaemonFCMinceR: So what happens to me, in theory, if I developed a hardware encryption chip, and I used a theoretical Linux under GPL 3 to run the device, and the device was a personal encryption key meant to safeguard the data put on it?Sep 01 20:32
DaemonFCI had no malicious intent to defraud the user, but the behavior of the device is banned by GPL 3, right?Sep 01 20:32
MinceRDaemonFC: one way would be implementing the firmware upgrade ("reflashing") in the way that the user can only do it if he knows the key -- which he must be able to knowSep 01 20:33
MinceRDaemonFC: it's in fact just like tivoization except you give the user the secret you'd otherwise withhold from himSep 01 20:33
DaemonFCthat's what I'm getting at, it makes it impossible for the user to safeguard their data because someone wants to record a program on their TivoSep 01 20:33
MinceR(well, and you probably have to generate unique keys per device)Sep 01 20:33
DaemonFCit's like a form of friendly fireSep 01 20:34
MinceRno, it doesn'tSep 01 20:34
MinceRthe user gets to use the device and reprogram itSep 01 20:34
MinceRothers don'tSep 01 20:34
MinceRstill, it makes me wonder what sort of overcomplicated encryption chip needs to run an operating systemSep 01 20:34
DaemonFCso if I have to make some modifications to the device to ensure the Chinese police don't jsut automatically know how it works, then that's against the license too, right?Sep 01 20:35
MinceRso you have a device in mind that relies only on security by obscurity?Sep 01 20:35
DaemonFCI mean you can see where I'm going with thisSep 01 20:35
schestowitzOur server had a 8-hour downtime. I hope people got through to the Comes post. It took a long time to do (and 4 people)Sep 01 20:35
MinceRor you realize that it's enough if the Chinese police doesn't know your _key_Sep 01 20:35
MinceR(Kerckhoff principle, anyone?)Sep 01 20:35
schestowitzneighborlee: yes, she becomes CEO in another companySep 01 20:36
schestowitzI found this out via a PRSep 01 20:36
DaemonFCwhat if the device is like an Iron Key and destroys itself if tampered withSep 01 20:36
schestowitzthe press release (PR) gave it waySep 01 20:36
DaemonFCdoes that violate GPL 3?Sep 01 20:36
schestowitzNovell would say nothingSep 01 20:36
DaemonFCschestowitz: I was amused by your likening it to the Hollywood Communist blacklistSep 01 20:37
DaemonFCI found that kind of funny actually (true enough though)Sep 01 20:37
MinceRDaemonFC: i doubt itSep 01 20:37
DaemonFCin a horrific kind of waySep 01 20:37
MinceRDaemonFC: but if you're really looking for corner cases, you shouldn't ask me, as i'm not a lawyer. ask FSF or SFLC.Sep 01 20:38
DaemonFCI'm not against it ensuring the freedom of its users, but horse trading personal data protection for Chinese journalists to give me my Tivo back is kind of distastefulSep 01 20:39
DaemonFCyou see where I'm coming from now?Sep 01 20:39
MinceRi see it less with each sentenceSep 01 20:39
MinceRhorse?Sep 01 20:39
DaemonFCI'd rather be frustrated by my Tivo refusing to record something than see a ban on devices like a hardware encryption thumbdriveSep 01 20:40
MinceRalso, are you storing your Falun Gong videos on your TiVo or something?Sep 01 20:40
DaemonFCGPL 3 could just be trading one problem for an even larger oneSep 01 20:40
MinceRit doubt it encrypts any of the recordingsSep 01 20:40
MinceRare you saying that the existence of GPLv3 precludes you from using any other license?Sep 01 20:40
schestowitzYes, they play "good journalist, BAD journalist"Sep 01 20:41
schestowitzBad, BAD journalist!!Sep 01 20:41
schestowitz"Get 'im fired"Sep 01 20:41
MinceRand that it makes hardware encrypted thumbdrives require an operating system?Sep 01 20:41
DaemonFCno, but if I need something that uses the GPL 3 I'd have to rewrite that by myself from the ground up under my own licenseSep 01 20:41
*jono has quit ("Later, Skater")Sep 01 20:41
DaemonFCI couldn't just relicense all of Linux or whateverSep 01 20:41
MinceRbtw, you could look into modular designSep 01 20:41
MinceRunless you're going for DRM, not the entire computer system will need to be tamperproofSep 01 20:42
DaemonFCwell, "hardware DRM" is just a marketing name for the same kind of device you'd use to encrypt your own dataSep 01 20:43
MinceRexcept there's a fundamental difference between DRM and hardware encryptionSep 01 20:43
DaemonFCthe purpose of the user is the only difference reallySep 01 20:43
MinceRin the case of DRM, it's necessary that the owner of the device doesn't find out the keySep 01 20:43
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MinceRin the case of real security, it's necessary that the owner of the device knows the keySep 01 20:44
neighborleeschestowitz, goodSep 01 20:44
MinceRand that influences the whole designSep 01 20:44
DaemonFCso if the owner knows it but I give it to them in such a way that they authorities don't find out (or let them generate their own), the device would be OKSep 01 20:44
DaemonFCcorrect?Sep 01 20:44
DaemonFC*theSep 01 20:45
MinceRmost likely, but i don't see what you're getting atSep 01 20:45
DaemonFCMinceR: Kind of like Iron KeySep 01 20:45
DaemonFCsame class of device anywaySep 01 20:45
DaemonFC 01 20:46
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MinceRand it's possible to make an IronKey based on GPLv3-ed softwareSep 01 20:46
MinceRas i've already explainedSep 01 20:46
MinceRi've also explained that you don't have to do so. :>Sep 01 20:47
MinceRand i'd rather have some tiny gadgets have their software written from scratch than to find out that some expensive piece of hardware (based on a lot of work i did) that i've bought screws me over because they've used my work to force DRM on meSep 01 20:48
DaemonFCRed Hat is rolling in money by selling other people's workSep 01 20:49
DaemonFCit was kind of implied it would happen and they worked on it anywaySep 01 20:50
DaemonFCas for the DRM part, yeah, maybe a pointSep 01 20:50
schestowitzRed Hat contributed to Linux the mostSep 01 20:50
schestowitzDaemonFC: your FUD is now welcomeSep 01 20:51
MinceRRed Hat is also contributing back, in case you haven't noticedSep 01 20:51
schestowitzYou bring anti-Linux venom here while typing it on the Vista/Vista 7 box of yoursSep 01 20:51
schestowitzThat does not helpSep 01 20:51
MinceRoh, i've been beaten to it :>Sep 01 20:51
schestowitzStay on topic, respect the topicSep 01 20:51
schestowitz /snow/not/Sep 01 20:51
schestowitz /s/now/not/Sep 01 20:51
schestowitz<schestowitz> DaemonFC: your FUD is NOT welcomeSep 01 20:51
MinceRmaybe in the future after we've beaten m$, crApple and their ilk (and hopefully made an example of some of them), drastic measures like copyleft will become unnecessarySep 01 20:52
ThistleWebschestowitz: he's never gonna listen to your wishes when you insist on him being the sponsored troll regardless of his actionsSep 01 20:52
MinceRhopefully we'll also get rid of the current (broken) copyright systemSep 01 20:52
ThistleWebany threat is meaningless if there's nothing behind itSep 01 20:52
ThistleWebno matter what he does, he's not gonna be bannedSep 01 20:52
ThistleWeband he knows itSep 01 20:52
MinceRand it showsSep 01 20:53
ThistleWebso why should he listen?Sep 01 20:53
schestowitzRe: BBC and MS ads, I wrote: "they still mention it. WinMob [sic] is a single-digit (percentile, market share) product."Sep 01 20:53
schestowitzThistleWeb: was the BBC like this before?Sep 01 20:53
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] Twitter may be jumping a shark? 01 20:53
schestowitzI only started reading it around 2003Sep 01 20:53
DaemonFChmmmmSep 01 20:54
DaemonFCschestowitz: 01 20:54
schestowitzBBC World Service also has bosses joining from MicrosoftSep 01 20:54
DaemonFCscroll down to Marcel LeBrunSep 01 20:54
DaemonFCin the comments'Sep 01 20:54
ThistleWebnever really noticed the BBC's bias before I knew about LinuxSep 01 20:54
schestowitzRADIAN6 SWAY team: shoot the blogger with a sniper before he hits "publish"Sep 01 20:54
schestowitz*SWATSep 01 20:54
schestowitz"you can assign posts to other members of your team,"Sep 01 20:55
schestowitzSWAT team?Sep 01 20:55
DaemonFCmmhmSep 01 20:55
DaemonFCAIH AlertsSep 01 20:55
DaemonFCwas what I googled forSep 01 20:55
schestowitz"Guy in India mocks Comcast... break and breach.. GO GO GO!!"Sep 01 20:55
ThistleWebpersonally I hope they're even more blatant, it's even more rope with which they will hang themselvesSep 01 20:55
schestowitzIndiana evenSep 01 20:55
DaemonFCschestowitz: It's "Breach, Open, Grenade"Sep 01 20:56
DaemonFCet it right :)Sep 01 20:56
DaemonFCthen you clear the rest of the buildingSep 01 20:56
DaemonFChaven't you ever played any Rainbow Six games? heheSep 01 20:56
schestowitzGawd. I hate marketing people.Sep 01 20:57
schestowitzI played the first SWAT gameSep 01 20:57
schestowitzSierra IIRCSep 01 20:57
DaemonFCI find that the 9mm works best when clearing buildings because you can aim it faster than the MP5Sep 01 20:57
DaemonFCB-)Sep 01 20:57
DaemonFCshoot for a kneecap and then when they stoop over, try for a head shotSep 01 20:58
DaemonFCsaves a lot of ammo rather than emptying a clip into one personSep 01 20:58
DaemonFC(Who probably has body armor anyway)Sep 01 20:58
*MinceR prefers the Redeemer for cleaning buildings.Sep 01 20:59
MinceRor the Flak Cannon.Sep 01 20:59
DaemonFCschestowitz: I wish one of them would say what an AIH Alert stands forSep 01 21:00
DaemonFCI'd really like to know how much of a pain in the ass they view me asSep 01 21:00
schestowitzUS Ad Spending Saw 15% Decline in Early '09 < >Sep 01 21:00
DaemonFCYeah, hopefully that includes the text ads on search enginesSep 01 21:01
DaemonFCI always wondered why Google and Bing and Yahoo will sell text ads to malware spreaders pretending to be antivirus programsSep 01 21:01
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schestowitzBong and Yahoo! are negligibleSep 01 21:11
schestowitzLess than 9% combined, says one surveySep 01 21:11
schestowitzGOogle has over 90% market shareSep 01 21:12
schestowitzSo Yahoo!+MS=nothing of useSep 01 21:12
schestowitzAs long as GOogle does not FORCE me to use their apps and OS I'm OKSep 01 21:12
DaemonFC"My post about the Playstation 3 spawned a comment from a fellow in Japan who hammed up his love for PS3 so much that anyone should have been suspicious that he may have been a Sony representative in disguise, needless to say, I hit the "Spam It" button and that's the last I ever heard of him. "Sep 01 21:13
DaemonFCfrom a post I'm writing about Radian6Sep 01 21:13
schestowitzRadian means what exactly? Sounds like spinning.Sep 01 21:13
DaemonFC"For those that don't know, whenever you write a blog post about Comcast, apparently the folks at Radian6 will index it and flag it for review by a Comcast employee, this is so they have a chance to try to derail the conversation. Obviously that's harder on a blog like this because I don't *have* to accept messages that are obviously that sort of spam in disguise."Sep 01 21:13
schestowitzOr derives from radioSep 01 21:13
schestowitzAs in, "we keep radar on bloggers"Sep 01 21:14
schestowitzThen spinning (rad)Sep 01 21:14
MinceRyou can just call "Yahoo!+MS" "MS" nowSep 01 21:15
MinceRbing has assimilated yahooSep 01 21:15
MinceR(bing borg)Sep 01 21:16
schestowitzasay vs gpl (IMHO): 01 21:17
schestowitz"Personally, I think awards should be given based on the merits that will most appeal to IT buyers, and such will have little to nothing to do with business model nuances and everything to do with solving business problems at a compelling price. If Zenoss is the better enterprise IT bet, shouldn't it get the Bossie, regardless of OpenNMS' licensing model?"Sep 01 21:17
schestowitzAFAIK, both NMS and zenoss are gplSep 01 21:17
schestowitzNMS promotes it even. They are really good in defense of GPLSep 01 21:17
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MinceRi don't have time to waste on asay now :)Sep 01 21:19
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schestowitzMinceR: don't worry, he ain't blogging much anymoreSep 01 21:27
schestowitzThe damage is confined Sep 01 21:27
schestowitzHe changed his mind on stuffSep 01 21:28
*_Hicham_ (n=chatzill@ has joined #boycottnovellSep 01 21:28
schestowitzPuts family ($$ income) ahead of ethics, not that he's an unethical personSep 01 21:28
schestowitzThere are ways or rearding for ethivcsSep 01 21:28
MinceRwas he ever ethical?Sep 01 21:28
_Hicham_I am always ethicalSep 01 21:28
schestowitzBut most industries are strutcured to reward (bribe?) exploitationSep 01 21:28
schestowitzLike USPTOSep 01 21:29 crApple fanboys even know what the word "ethical" means?Sep 01 21:29
schestowitz_Hicham_: yes, you areSep 01 21:29
schestowitzseller_liar is anotherSep 01 21:29
MinceReven considering that it's longer than two syllables?Sep 01 21:29
schestowitzMinceR: they know iThicalSep 01 21:29
MinceRthere's no such productSep 01 21:29
schestowitzMaybeSep 01 21:29
schestowitzMaybe notSep 01 21:29
trmancowowSep 01 21:30
trmanco 01 21:30
trmancoalreadySep 01 21:30
schestowitzYeahSep 01 21:30
schestowitzSeen it an hour agoSep 01 21:30
schestowitzI'm gonna post to cOLASep 01 21:30
schestowitzKen wrote about kde4 tooSep 01 21:30
schestowitzHe writes very wellSep 01 21:30
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schestowitzMicrosoft is very demoralised nowSep 01 21:32
schestowitzSo is NovellSep 01 21:32
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[davidgerard] High chair and v nice (£400 new) pram to give away, F is too big for 'em. Must be fetched from us in London E17. Email .Sep 01 21:32
schestowitzThose who can, leaveSep 01 21:32
schestowitzIt's a good opportunity for kde to pick up. Vista 7 will take a month before people smell the bodySep 01 21:33
schestowitzIt's currently used mostly by fanboys like DaemonFC:Sep 01 21:33
_Hicham_Vista is a bunch of stolen ideasSep 01 21:33
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[trmanco] KDE 4.3.1 Released: !kde Wow, already :D #kdeSep 01 21:33
schestowitzOrdinary people don't even have THE PC to run the damn resource hogSep 01 21:33
schestowitzANd they use software that's not compatible with itSep 01 21:34
_Hicham_DaemonFC is an MS employeeSep 01 21:34
schestowitzThey don't know jack about virtualisationSep 01 21:34
schestowitzMicrosoft treats Average Joe like he's an MSDN subsSep 01 21:34
_Hicham_MS pays his comcast connectionSep 01 21:34
MinceRone would think they can afford more coherent trollsSep 01 21:34
_Hicham_MinceR : he is an excellent trollSep 01 21:35
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[trmanco] Linux powers world's fastest stock exchange: 01 21:35
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DaemonFCa $500 PC I bought last year runs it fineSep 01 21:38
DaemonFC*shrugs*Sep 01 21:38
DaemonFCthat's about as mainstream as it gets I thinkSep 01 21:38
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] @trmanco KDE 4.3.1 Released: !kde Wow, already :D #kdeSep 01 21:39
_Hicham_great, DaemonFC is still aliveSep 01 21:41
DaemonFCIf I'm an excellent troll, then why exactly have I said some of the things I've said about Windows?Sep 01 21:42
DaemonFCyou seem to just gloss over the parts that sicken me enough to write an entire page about my disgustSep 01 21:42
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DaemonFCthe "Windows 7 Sins" site even said what pisses big media off the most is that it's "still your computer" and they "can't stop you from running other programs"Sep 01 21:43
DaemonFCso by their own admission, no DRM component will work as long as you can easily bypass it by using other programsSep 01 21:43
MinceRdo you think that will change the way things for most customers?Sep 01 21:44
MinceRs/gs/gs work/Sep 01 21:44
DaemonFCMinceR: The ones that care enough to avoid it will avoid itSep 01 21:44
DaemonFCthe lazy and incompetent will just use what is thereSep 01 21:44
MinceRor they'll be unable to use it on their portable playerSep 01 21:45
DaemonFCeven Microsoft is having a hard time convincing people to use Internet ExplorerSep 01 21:45
MinceRjust because it happens to support a different incarnation of FailsForSureSep 01 21:45
DaemonFCMinceR: Nothing stops you from using Vorbis on Windows or transferring it to your portable playerSep 01 21:45
MinceRnothing stops me from upgrading to gnu/linux eitherSep 01 21:45
DaemonFCI think that pretty much says that it's still my computerSep 01 21:45
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DaemonFCthey can't force me to use Windows Media or WM-DRMSep 01 21:46
MinceRthey can degrade the quality of the video signal that is sent to your display, thoughSep 01 21:46
DaemonFCwhen?Sep 01 21:46
MinceRand they can waste 10% of your CPU cycles on doing DRM-related hardware checksSep 01 21:46
MinceRwhen they feel like, apparentlySep 01 21:47
DaemonFCwhen you use Blu Ray discs that use the constraint token?Sep 01 21:47
DaemonFCI've watched plenty of high definition rips on this system without issueSep 01 21:47
DaemonFCI don't think any discs even use that token, yetSep 01 21:47
MinceRhow utterly reassuringSep 01 21:48
DaemonFCAnyway, the discs are trivial to rip even if they doSep 01 21:48
DaemonFCand eventually VLC will play them, do you think VLC will respect the constraint token?Sep 01 21:48
DaemonFCI don'tSep 01 21:48
DaemonFCthe only way something could get on my system that uses DRM is if I encode it and use DRM myself, and that's not likely to happenSep 01 21:49
DaemonFCso I think it's much ado about next-to-nothingSep 01 21:49
DaemonFCThe reason I'm angry about Windows Media Center and cable is obvious, but I uninstalled it and use other media center softwareSep 01 21:50
DaemonFCso the argument is still kind of academicSep 01 21:50
MinceRthen the amount of time wasted on continually checking that your hardware supports DRM must be academic, tooSep 01 21:52
DaemonFCit's trivialSep 01 21:52
DaemonFCit also serves a useful purposeSep 01 21:52
MinceRpray tell, what useful purpose does it serve?Sep 01 21:52
MinceRkeeps your computer from running too fast?Sep 01 21:53
DaemonFCthe system will figure out if a driver has stopped responding and resurrect it almost immediatelySep 01 21:53
MinceRkeeps your electricity bill from being too low?Sep 01 21:53
DaemonFCit has almost no impact on performanceSep 01 21:53
MinceRso, do drivers die so often on your winblows boxes?Sep 01 21:53
DaemonFCnoSep 01 21:53
DaemonFCbut if it does happen, the system will restart it immediatelySep 01 21:53
MinceRso how does that justify wasting a significant amount of resources on checking them?Sep 01 21:54
MinceR(also, what makes you think it will even work that way?)Sep 01 21:54
DaemonFCWindows, unlike Linux, doesn't kill all your open programs if the drivers for your GPU go downSep 01 21:54
MinceRLOLSep 01 21:54
DaemonFCwhen it comes back up, your programs are still thereSep 01 21:54
MinceRneither kills all your open programsSep 01 21:54
MinceRthey just freeze solidSep 01 21:54
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DaemonFCI've had driver crashes a few times on Vista, haven't had it happen on 7Sep 01 21:55
MinceRthen they won't happen ever, right?Sep 01 21:55
DaemonFCI had an issue with a beta of Windows 7 while using a Logitech driver meant for Vista, that's fixed nowSep 01 21:55
DaemonFChas been for a few monthsSep 01 21:55
MinceR...but then why keep checking it?Sep 01 21:55
DaemonFCthe performance impact is negligible and nothing is 100% reliableSep 01 21:56
DaemonFCif it ever does happen, you'll be glad the system can recover itself and go on like nothing ever happenedSep 01 21:56
MinceRthe benchmarks i've seen were hardly negligibleSep 01 21:56
DaemonFCif it never happens, the performance impact is almost nonexistentSep 01 21:56
DaemonFCso it's almost like extra reliability that didn't cost you anythingSep 01 21:57
DaemonFCnot the intended purpose of device polling, but a nice side effectSep 01 21:57
DaemonFCWhen X freezes, sometimes you can kill it and all the graphical programs you have running, and log back inSep 01 21:58
DaemonFCit's the same as the system crashing, you jsut get to log back in and start over without a full rebootSep 01 21:58
DaemonFCif that's your idea of the kernel being reliable, then yes, it wasn't technically a kernel problemSep 01 21:59
DaemonFCthe rocket scientists behind X removed your ability to restart it unless you edit the xorg.conf file by hand and restore the ability to use ctrl-alt-bkspSep 01 22:00
cubezzzI can ctrl-alt-bkspSep 01 22:00
cubezzzthis box is fc1 thoughSep 01 22:00
DaemonFCso you'll probably forget to do that and still end up having to hold the power button in anyway, unless you can still switch to another virtual terminal and kill X from there and restart it, remembering not to ever use startx as root even though you need to be root to kill itSep 01 22:01
DaemonFC:)Sep 01 22:01
DaemonFCJesus, I love XSep 01 22:01
DaemonFCcan you feel the love?Sep 01 22:01
MinceRnot reallySep 01 22:01
DaemonFCgoodSep 01 22:01
MinceRbut having used winblows today (in vmware, on a remote server), all i can say is that i wish that you continue to use winblowsSep 01 22:02
DaemonFCX is a big steaming pile of fail and it still belongs in the 1990sSep 01 22:02
MinceRthat's one of the worst things i can wish for anyone :>Sep 01 22:02
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] World's Most (Mission-) Critical Servers Run GNU/Linux 01 22:02
MinceRwindows is a big steaming pile of fail and it still belongs in hellSep 01 22:02
DaemonFCthat's why servers don't run X unless you're crazySep 01 22:03
DaemonFCit cuts your reliability down exponentiallySep 01 22:03
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] OpenGL 3 Support Coming to Mesa on Linux 01 22:03
DaemonFCalso uses a lot of valuable resources even when it does manage to runSep 01 22:03
cubezzzwell, a pure server doesn't need XSep 01 22:04
cubezzzbut a general purpose machine will need itSep 01 22:04
cubezzzzaurus doesn't use XSep 01 22:05
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cubezzznot sure what alternatives existSep 01 22:06
cubezzzthere's QtopiaSep 01 22:06
DaemonFCthe UNIX Hater's Handbook (1994?) dedicated an entire chapter to X and called it the fastest way to turn your brand new workstation into a 4.77 Mhz IBM PCSep 01 22:07
DaemonFCnot a lot has changedSep 01 22:07
MinceRthe unix hater's handbook is full of shitSep 01 22:07
MinceRand tell me, how often is a server even connected to a display, let alone managed locally?Sep 01 22:08
MinceRjust because your favorite "server-grade" windows insists on blowing CPU cycles on drawing a desktop doesn't mean it's a fundamental necessity for a serverSep 01 22:08
DaemonFCit doesn't have toSep 01 22:09
DaemonFCthere's Server CoreSep 01 22:09
MinceR(neither is blowing 280MB RAM on SQL Server holding nothing, nor is opening countless backdoors via IIS, by the way)Sep 01 22:09
MinceRwell, that's great -- just like the hypePhone, maybe it will mature into something usable in sometime around 3011Sep 01 22:09
DaemonFC 01 22:09
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] Red Hat Targets the Brains at CMU, Gets Another Partner (Innovativ) 01 22:11
cubezzzin the 80's we ran Unix System V with curses :)Sep 01 22:12
cubezzzdon't recall even using XSep 01 22:12
DaemonFCahhh, punsSep 01 22:12
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[davidgerard] And now, a couple of verses for Republican evangelist Christians 01 22:12
DaemonFCI love punsSep 01 22:12
DaemonFC"cubezzz| in the 80's we ran Unix System V with curses" Yes, I'm sure everyone who uses UNIX curses, a lot ;)Sep 01 22:13
cubezzzI wasn't a big fan of unix 20 years ago eitherSep 01 22:14
cubezzzbut it grew on meSep 01 22:14
cubezzzplus the more experienced Unix guys were kind of snobbySep 01 22:15
DaemonFC"Here's a nickel kid, go buy yourself a real computer"Sep 01 22:15
DaemonFC:DSep 01 22:15
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] Sony Imperils Self with Linux Exclusion 01 22:15
DaemonFCMe: "Santa!? Is that you!?"Sep 01 22:15
cubezzzthere wasn't very much hobbyist Unix users at the timeSep 01 22:15
cubezzzbut the alternatives were: WIndows 2.0, desqiew, ms dos and topviewSep 01 22:16
cubezzzlooking back, Unix System V was the best of the bunchSep 01 22:16
DaemonFCof course there weren't, using UNIX as a hobby probably came second to the hobby of smearing your genitals with peanut butter and letting loose a group of rabid dogsSep 01 22:16
DaemonFC:PSep 01 22:16
cubezzzwell, and there was VAXSep 01 22:17
DaemonFCeven people that had to use it at work hated itSep 01 22:17
cubezzzand AmigaDos was just startingSep 01 22:17
cubezzzI think Radio Shack was using Unix at one pointSep 01 22:18
DaemonFCXenixSep 01 22:18
DaemonFCRadio Shack was selling Tandy systems with Microsoft XenixSep 01 22:18
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] Red Hat Makes JBoss More Professional 01 22:18
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[davidgerard] Interesting FF extension Invisible Hand FAQ Any reports?Sep 01 22:18
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[trmanco] Gmail's web interface is back online! #gmailSep 01 22:18
DaemonFCand eventually, IBM PCs with it, that didn't last longSep 01 22:18
cubezzzSCO Unix System V was what we were using back in the daySep 01 22:19
DaemonFCeventually everything was using DOS cause it was cheaper to licenseSep 01 22:19
cubezzzwhen did Microsoft kill Xenix?Sep 01 22:19
DaemonFC1989 I thinkSep 01 22:19
DaemonFCthey sold it to SCOSep 01 22:19
cubezzzI'll have to check my programming notesSep 01 22:20
DaemonFCthroughout most of the 80s, Xenix was about the only way to run UNIX on your PC,Sep 01 22:20
cubezzzI thought SCO Unix System V was before 1989 but I'm not positiveSep 01 22:20
cubezzzI wrote some code in that era, let me checkSep 01 22:21
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[davidgerard] Couldn't put it myself. Windows Users: the Charlie Browns of computing 01 22:21
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] MontaVista Linux 6 Targets Many Architectures 01 22:21
MinceRat least unix was an operating system before gates and ballmer even knew what that wasSep 01 22:22
MinceRand windows still is just an annoying toySep 01 22:22
DaemonFCAs for the comment on Norton being useless, I agree fullySep 01 22:23
DaemonFC 01 22:23
cubezzzwe didn't use windows 2.0 we just evaluated itSep 01 22:23
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] VoIP Gateway from Sangoma Abandons Windows-only and Ports to Linux 01 22:23
DaemonFCI don't think anyone used Windows 2.0Sep 01 22:23
MinceRlast time i've heard symantec's "experts" talk on the radio i groanedSep 01 22:24
MinceRit's painful to hear that degree of incompetenceSep 01 22:24
MinceRthankfully, i don't remember what they saidSep 01 22:24
DaemonFCMinceR: Almost every time someone brings me their infected system, it's using NortonSep 01 22:24
MinceR:>Sep 01 22:24
DaemonFCthat kind of proves it's uselessSep 01 22:24
cubezzzyikes I paid $1300 for my first amiga hard driveSep 01 22:25
MinceRit's really a disgrace that they still put Peter Norton's name on that crapSep 01 22:25
DaemonFCMinceR: Actually, I've started using Windows Security Essentials to disinfect those systemsSep 01 22:25
DaemonFCit seems to be able to root out all the serious bad stuffSep 01 22:25
MinceRexcept Bonzi Buddy?Sep 01 22:25
DaemonFCMinceR: I cleaned out my aunt's system using WSE and the only thing I found when I ran another scan with Spybot S&D were a couple registry entries that WSE had overlookedSep 01 22:26
DaemonFCit removed all of the actual spywareSep 01 22:26
MinceRwell, that's one lucky instanceSep 01 22:26
DaemonFCNorton was actually harder to remove than the spywareSep 01 22:26
DaemonFC:DSep 01 22:26
cubezzzI stopped using Norton produces a while agoSep 01 22:27
DaemonFCMinceR: Installing antivirus after the fact is always a dicey propositionSep 01 22:27
cubezzzproductsSep 01 22:27
MinceRi knowSep 01 22:27
DaemonFCyour best bet is to use good antivirus before the shit takes over the systemSep 01 22:27
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] Future of Sub-notebooks May be Linux-only (ARM) 01 22:27
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] Jolicloud (GNU/Linux) Impresses 01 22:27
MinceRthough nowadays you could just plug the HDD into a machine that already has antivirus swSep 01 22:27
DaemonFCschestowitz: I have JolicloudSep 01 22:27
DaemonFCI like itSep 01 22:27
MinceRor use a livecd/livedvdSep 01 22:27
DaemonFCI've been meaning to write something about itSep 01 22:28
DaemonFCyeah, I also ran my Avast and Avira boot CDs after thatSep 01 22:28
DaemonFCto make sure I got it allSep 01 22:28
DaemonFCthey didn't find anythingSep 01 22:28
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] OLPC Deployment in Sminthi Runs GNU/Linux 01 22:28
DaemonFCI make antivirus boot CDs on CD-RWs and reburn them every month or so to make sure their pattern files are up to dateSep 01 22:29
DaemonFCit's some extra insurance against something taking the system over that I can't get rid of while Windows is runningSep 01 22:29
*_Hicham_ has quit (Success)Sep 01 22:30
MinceRcan't they just update over the network into RAM?Sep 01 22:30
DaemonFC?Sep 01 22:30
DaemonFCwhat can?Sep 01 22:30
DaemonFCthe virus?Sep 01 22:30
MinceRthe livecd/livedvdSep 01 22:30
DaemonFCohSep 01 22:30
MinceRboot up, update signatures, scan, rebootSep 01 22:30
DaemonFCno, it's a boot CDSep 01 22:30
MinceRsure it's a boot CDSep 01 22:31
DaemonFCit has the pattern files on the CDSep 01 22:31
DaemonFCyou can if Linux recognizes your NICSep 01 22:31
MinceRbut it could theoretically still download the newest pattern files from the internet into RAMSep 01 22:31
DaemonFCor if you have access to the internetSep 01 22:31
DaemonFCso I keep the disc updated anywaySep 01 22:31
MinceRi don't think i've ever had a pc in which linux didn't handle the Ethernet NIC out-of-the-boxSep 01 22:31
DaemonFCI haveSep 01 22:31
DaemonFCit's been a few years though and it was eventually supportedSep 01 22:32
MinceRmust be your evil anti-FLOSS auraSep 01 22:32
DaemonFCwell, go back 8-9 years, and nothing worked with LinuxSep 01 22:32
DaemonFCthe fact it works now must be the evil aura of corporate driversSep 01 22:32
DaemonFC:DSep 01 22:32
DaemonFCit turns out that it helps a lot if you have an Intel or AMD motherboard, and Intel and AMD make drivers for their motherboardsSep 01 22:33
DaemonFCgo figureSep 01 22:33
DaemonFCbut then you have HURD and "We don't need no stinkin' drivers, holmes!"Sep 01 22:34
DaemonFC:PSep 01 22:34
DaemonFC"Go away with your fascist corporately funded developers"Sep 01 22:34
DaemonFC"It only boots on two systems, but we did it all by ourselves"Sep 01 22:35
DaemonFCyou almost can't help but to pity themSep 01 22:35
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-BNc/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] Google One Step Closer to Preinstalling GNU/Linux (Chrome OS) on PCs 01 22:35
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] Leading bank in Indian Bank Dumps Microsoft Office for 01 22:36
DaemonFC"Finally, a clear choice for consumers." yeah, instead of one browser that has no adblock, that you didn't request, you now have two.Sep 01 22:36
DaemonFCthis is progressSep 01 22:36
DaemonFCIt failed to mention the precise amount of the pile of cash Google bribed them withSep 01 22:37
cubezzzoh and we used some NCR 68020 systems in the 80'sSep 01 22:39
cubezzzforget what the OS was, some kind of UnixSep 01 22:39
DaemonFCWhat is the answer to one piece of software bundled that nobody wanted?Sep 01 22:39
DaemonFCapparently more bundled software nobody wantedSep 01 22:40
DaemonFC:DSep 01 22:40
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] European Union Releases More Free Software, Seeks Openness in Literature 01 22:40
cubezzzdefinitely there wasn't the mono culture back thenSep 01 22:40
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] Apache is /far/ ahead of non-Free software. 01 22:41
MinceR234208 < DaemonFC> it turns out that it helps a lot if you have an Intel or AMD motherboard, and Intel and AMD make drivers for their motherboardsSep 01 22:41
MinceRit helps anywaySep 01 22:41
MinceRwhat else is there? SiS? VIA? no please.Sep 01 22:42
Diablo-D3intel and amd do?Sep 01 22:42
Diablo-D3for windows, yesSep 01 22:42
Diablo-D3for linux intel and amd donate drivers, the kernel dev community makes them workSep 01 22:42
Diablo-D3also, VIA is actually pretty good at shit now, MinceRSep 01 22:42
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] Paying Premium is So Yesterday, Suggests Wired Magazine 01 22:42
MinceRDiablo-D3: tell that to my shitty VIA EPIASep 01 22:43
Diablo-D3what, on linux? they work fineSep 01 22:43
Diablo-D3sounds like user errorSep 01 22:43
DaemonFCwithout hardware makers handing over tons of GPL'd code, Linux would still be a catastrophe that only worked with a few bits and pieces from each hardware categorySep 01 22:44
MinceRyes, my bad for plugging an USB HDD, unplugging it, and for not doing anything at allSep 01 22:44
cubezzzVIA, hmmmSep 01 22:44
DaemonFCa true community project like this is not possible on the scale of LinuxSep 01 22:44
MinceRDaemonFC: so Linux is composed of drivers now?Sep 01 22:45
DaemonFCno, but it won't be worth anything at all to you without themSep 01 22:45
Diablo-D3MinceR: sounds like user errorSep 01 22:46
DaemonFCHURD is like getting the steel framework of a building in place then stoppingSep 01 22:46
*amarsh04_ is now known as amarsh04Sep 01 22:46
Diablo-D3MinceR: via's usb shit has been supported since 486s roamed the plainsSep 01 22:46
DaemonFCand that's all it will ever beSep 01 22:46
cubezzzI always umount before I unplugSep 01 22:46
MinceRDiablo-D3: well, then it's supported shit.Sep 01 22:46
MinceRcubezzz: duhSep 01 22:46
Diablo-D3 01 22:46
Diablo-D3fffffffffffffffffffffSep 01 22:46
MinceRDiablo-D3: doesn't make it non-shitSep 01 22:46
Diablo-D3MinceR: see urlSep 01 22:46
MinceRDiablo-D3: and by the way, sounds like fuck you.Sep 01 22:47
MinceRi'm just saying.Sep 01 22:47
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] GNUgole Commands 90% of Search in the World, Shows Survey 01 22:47
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[davidgerard] @schestowitz the official jboss courses are *terrible*. i recommend them to no-one whatsoever anywhere.Sep 01 22:48
Diablo-D3hahahhaSep 01 22:49
Diablo-D3david++Sep 01 22:49
cubezzza couple of times I had to mmod usb-storageSep 01 22:49
DaemonFCthat guy is kind of egotisticalSep 01 22:49
cubezzzbut I could always make it work againSep 01 22:49
DaemonFCbut then, why point fingers?Sep 01 22:49
cubezzzrmmodSep 01 22:49
DaemonFC"Wow...ten whole bucks off of a multi-hundred dollar piece of software. How Generous."Sep 01 22:50
DaemonFCheheSep 01 22:50
schestowitztessier: pingSep 01 22:50
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] ODF Marks Another Win in Hungary 01 22:51
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] Sun Plugin Used to Bypass Microsoft's Broken 'Support' for ODF 01 22:51
*_goblin ( has joined #boycottnovellSep 01 22:54
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[davidgerard] insanely useful apache httpd 2.2 article (HT @schestozwitz)Sep 01 22:55
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[davidgerard] @schestowitz non-free web servers are jokes at best. i actually had to administer Netscape/iPlanet/SunONE once. *shudder*Sep 01 22:56
DaemonFCusing Microsoft Office for ODF seems kind of pointless anywaySep 01 22:57
DaemonFCthere's a number of freeware programs that support it nativelySep 01 22:57
cubezzzthe fact of the matter is a lot of hardware has bugs, and it's up to the software to work around itSep 01 22:58
cubezzzthe chips guy's boss tells him "Ship it" and it's doneSep 01 22:58
_goblinhi allSep 01 22:59
MinceRthe point of ODF support for m$ office is that the poor sods who are used to it and can't/won't learn anything else can share their documents in a standard formatSep 01 22:59
MinceRso that eventually people can stop caring about whether m$'s binary/obfuscated XML crap can be loaded or notSep 01 23:00
_goblinyep...Microsoft are grasping whatever they can to try to keep their packages relevant.....I think there was a time when Linux and FOSS's future was dependent on how well it co-operated with Microsoft packages.  I think that time now is coming to an end, FOSS can stand on its own merits...Sep 01 23:02
_goblinand certainly Linux can....I personally hope MS closes shop on all interoperability between their "standards" and open ones, it will speed up (IMO) the decline of a model thats way out of date and more of an addiction than a requirement nowadays...(IMO)Sep 01 23:03
_goblintalking of the desktop for a minute, is Microsoft really mission critical anymore?  I think its not been required for a long time, its just taken a while for some to break out of the brainwashing they have had for years....Sep 01 23:05
MinceRfor someone specifically or in general?Sep 01 23:06
_goblinI'd say for general, home, "average user" use.Sep 01 23:07
MinceRi'd say it isn'tSep 01 23:07
_goblinwhy so?Sep 01 23:07
MinceRbecause the "average user" doesn't use that many appsSep 01 23:08
MinceRsome of them even get away with using the crApple idiot boxSep 01 23:08
MinceRmost general apps are already coveredSep 01 23:08
_goblinexactly.  They need a platform a browser, an email client etc.......Linux obviously caters for this just like MS...Sep 01 23:08
_goblinhow many "average users" would notice if they ran FF or IE?Sep 01 23:09
_goblinthe point being, Microsoft technology (IMO) has been obsolete for years with FOSS alternatives, its just taking time for people to get their head around free.Sep 01 23:10
cubezzzvideo guys use premiere, photo guys use photoshop, they are still using Microsoft to a large degreeSep 01 23:10
MinceRthey probably wouldn't noticeSep 01 23:10
MinceRaverage users are neither video guys nor photo guysSep 01 23:10
_goblincubezz: True, and I think theres a line between average users....Sep 01 23:10
_goblinjust like gamers...Sep 01 23:10
cubezzzright, I'm just pointing out what I've been seeing, general usage is different of courseSep 01 23:11
MinceRi'm not sure if gamers are average usersSep 01 23:11
_goblinagreed MinceR....I wouldnt think they are...hence the popularity of consoles.Sep 01 23:11
cubezzzand they don't _have_ to use Adobe photoshop :)Sep 01 23:11
MinceRindeedSep 01 23:11
MinceRnor do they have to use premiere (which is horribly crap, btw)Sep 01 23:11
_goblinGaming on the PC IMO will be soon dead, its support is reducing in the birth of consoles and piracy is crippling it.Sep 01 23:12
MinceRwhen i had to use premiere at my internship, i eventually moved to doing the cutting with virtualdub and only doing the recoding (to flv -_-) with premiereSep 01 23:12
_goblinand also Photoshop isnt even MS anyway....Sep 01 23:13
_goblinbrb - quick smoke break.Sep 01 23:13
cubezzzno, but it implies using WindowsSep 01 23:13
tessierschestowitz: pongSep 01 23:14
tessierWhat's upSep 01 23:14
tessier?Sep 01 23:14
cubezzzI've done some video work myself, nothing big, but I did use mencoder on LinuxSep 01 23:14
schestowitztessier: it's OK nowSep 01 23:14
schestowitzI had to delete a browser cookieSep 01 23:14
tessierokSep 01 23:15
*tessier is playing with xmonadSep 01 23:15
schestowitz[Some CMS admin issue]Sep 01 23:15
tessierIt's pretty cool. I think I may stick with it.Sep 01 23:15
schestowitzDid you see multitouch/Sep 01 23:15
schestowitz?Sep 01 23:15
schestowitz 01 23:16
*amarsh04_ ( has joined #boycottnovellSep 01 23:16
_goblinHi Roy!Sep 01 23:18
_goblinhad a visit from Mr De Icazza on my blog whilst I was away...Sep 01 23:18
Diablo-D3_goblin: lol, he hit mine earlierSep 01 23:18
DaemonFCmaybe he uses Radian6Sep 01 23:19
DaemonFCor Visible TechnologiesSep 01 23:19
_goblinIve seen those incomming links on my site befoe.Sep 01 23:19
Diablo-D3icaza posted a comment on my blog, he didnt trackback itSep 01 23:21
_goblinTo be fair I expected him to be a little aggressive what with my comparison of MONO and its similarity to the song by Henry Rollins "Liar"Sep 01 23:22
_goblinthe lyrics just fit the MONO situation so well (IMO)Sep 01 23:22
Diablo-D3hes not aggressive, hes just a twitSep 01 23:22
_goblinstill got my £50 amazon voucher....thinking of buying "Chariots of the Gods"Sep 01 23:26
_goblinInternet Explorer posts largest loss since '08; Firefox, Chrome, Safari gain : 01 23:35
_goblinI'm sure its already been talked about.Sep 01 23:35
DaemonFCI wonder why Opera never gets noticedSep 01 23:40
DaemonFCit does more and uses fewer resourcesSep 01 23:40
DaemonFChmmmSep 01 23:40
_goblinI've never got on with that....don't know why....I champion Chromium at the moment....Sep 01 23:40
DaemonFCaccording to that post on ZDNet, Opera is now at 2.1%Sep 01 23:40
DaemonFCso they have posted a gainSep 01 23:40
DaemonFCmaybe due to a Streisand Effect of Paul Thurrott and friends telling people to boycott it?Sep 01 23:41
*amarsh04 has quit (Read error: 101 (Network is unreachable))Sep 01 23:41
_goblinhasn't worked for Novell though has it?Sep 01 23:41
DaemonFCThe way I've seen it, Novell and red Hat are teh only ones making any real money selling Linux supportSep 01 23:42
schestowitzHi, _goblin Sep 01 23:42
DaemonFCthe other 20% or so of the revenue is split between the also-ransSep 01 23:42
_goblinhi Roy!Sep 01 23:42
DaemonFC*theSep 01 23:42
schestowitzSorry 'bout the delay/lagSep 01 23:42
schestowitz 01 23:43
_goblinschestowitz: Im back and in one piece!Sep 01 23:43
DaemonFCUbuntu is still a money loserSep 01 23:43
schestowitzBeen watching 4 episodes of Cosmos this week so far. Really good programme.Sep 01 23:43
_goblinsaw a good documentary "Ancient astronaughts"Sep 01 23:43
DaemonFCMultimillion dollar ad campaigns and IE 8 are not bucking the trend of users abandoning Internet ExplorerSep 01 23:43
DaemonFCwell, what else do they have in their bag of tricks?Sep 01 23:44
DaemonFCthey already tried slandering Firefox and OperaSep 01 23:44
_goblinmaybe they'll put Balmer back on like he did when he was selling Windows.Sep 01 23:44
DaemonFCI'm not really a huge Mozilla fan but even  Firefox is a huge step up from Internet ExplorerSep 01 23:45
_goblinI am nearly ready to remove FF in favor of Chromium....its very solid now...Sep 01 23:45
DaemonFCOpera 10 is goodSep 01 23:45
DaemonFCnot quite what I was expecting, but goodSep 01 23:45
cubezzzwhen did IE become part of the basic windows install?Sep 01 23:46
DaemonFCThere are a number of features in their weekly builds that are not in Opera 10 because not all the bugs are worked outSep 01 23:46
_goblinnah Im happy as I am...Ive been following the builds of ChromiumSep 01 23:46
DaemonFCcubezzz: Windows 98 on retail channelSep 01 23:46
DaemonFCWindows 95 OSR 2.5 for OEM channelSep 01 23:46
DaemonFCIE 3 was in Windows 95 OSR 2.1, but it wasn't integrated and you could edit the setup files to not install it, or download the standalone installer and install that, which would create an uninstallerSep 01 23:47
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] @davidgerard : yes, and Apache keeps gaining at the expense of the rest (Google has its 'version' also)Sep 01 23:47
DaemonFCIE 3 was also available in a retail boxed set with extra plugins :)Sep 01 23:47
schestowitzDaemonFC: stop citing the lie statsSep 01 23:48
DaemonFCIE 1 was in Plus! For Windows 95Sep 01 23:48
schestowitzNet Applications is US stats, bias further towards certain clientsSep 01 23:48
schestowitzOpera is their client tooSep 01 23:48
MinceRthere was an IE 1? :)Sep 01 23:48
cubezzzEU is talking no IE in windows 7Sep 01 23:48
DaemonFCyeah, it was NCSA Mosaic, renamed, and with a Windows logo for the "throbber"Sep 01 23:48
DaemonFCIE 2 was the first version with any changes from NCSA MosaicSep 01 23:49
DaemonFCtables and cookies support I believeSep 01 23:49
DaemonFCIE 3 has some CSS, JScript, and ActiveXSep 01 23:49
DaemonFCIE 4 was the first version where Trident was used, Trident is a COM object you can embed into your own applicationsSep 01 23:50
DaemonFCIE 5.5 was the last version to support Windows 95, IE 6 SP1 was the last to support Windows 98 and Windows 2000, IE 6 SP2, 7, and 8 all run on XP, but you need SP2Sep 01 23:51
DaemonFCMozilla browsers don't support Windows 9x/Me anymore as of version 3Sep 01 23:51
DaemonFCOpera 10 still runsSep 01 23:52
*schestowitz funbles to find the mute button on teh DaemonFC Sep 01 23:52
schestowitz*fumblesSep 01 23:52
cubezzzMicrosoft really screwed Spyglass :-0Sep 01 23:53
DaemonFCactually, I think Opera is the only browser still being developed that will install and run on Windows 9x, though you could probably remove Cairo from Firefox and go back to using GDI+ and it would workSep 01 23:53
DaemonFCa fairly invasive patch though and you'd be on your own with itSep 01 23:53
MinceRschestowitz: it's the one with "kickban" written on itSep 01 23:54
MinceR(well, there's also +b %... (+q?) )Sep 01 23:54
cubezzzbtw I'm looking for lynx for Zaurus SL-5500 if anyone knows :)Sep 01 23:54
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[_goblin] "In the last 12 months, IE has lost 8.6 points of browser share." - #microsoft #ie #windowsSep 01 23:54
MinceRcan't you just compile it?Sep 01 23:55
DaemonFCCairo is one of the reasons Firefox uses so much more RAM on Windows than Firefox 2 did anyway, it bypasses a native graphics API for a foreign oneSep 01 23:55
cubezzzMinceR, I'll try itSep 01 23:55
DaemonFCbasically Firefox is what you get when you design something to be as portable as possible without focusing any work on efficiency or platform optimizationSep 01 23:55
DaemonFCXUL was the first offenseSep 01 23:56
schestowitz_goblin: you link to .NET App[le]s?Sep 01 23:56
*magentar has quit (Remote closed the connection)Sep 01 23:56
DaemonFCcubezzz: They abandoned that, there wil lbe a browser ballot nowSep 01 23:56
schestowitzXUL is greatSep 01 23:57
DaemonFCit'll be like a screen that loads something like or something ridiculous like thatSep 01 23:57
schestowitzDaemonFC: you're trollingSep 01 23:57
schestowitzBe warnedSep 01 23:57
DaemonFCXUL is a $50,000 toilet seatSep 01 23:57
DaemonFCbut it's portableSep 01 23:57
DaemonFCthe only reason nobody notices how much of a drag it is anymore is because we're all using systems that are fast enough to cope with it nowSep 01 23:58
DaemonFCgo back and try to use it on a system from 6-8 years agoSep 01 23:58
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Diablo-D3DaemonFC: do me a favor for one daySep 01 23:59
schestowitzTry that with Vid-Duh!Sep 01 23:59
Diablo-D3stop talkingSep 01 23:59
DaemonFCbuying a faster system to run Firefox is like strapping a JATO rocket to a brickSep 01 23:59
Diablo-D3dude, noSep 01 23:59
Diablo-D3its like strapping a JATO rocket to a bikeSep 01 23:59
schestowitzWindows Visduh on a 1ghz cpuSep 01 23:59
Diablo-D3it looks really fucking cool, but you dont want to ride itSep 01 23:59
trmancoan aluminum chassis bikeSep 01 23:59

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