IRC: #boycottnovell @ FreeNode: September 3rd, 2009

DaemonFCMicrosoft is so desperate to spread OOXML that they're giving away free copies of it on Best Buy laptops til next month I believe it wasSep 03 00:00
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-BNc/#boycottnovell-[zoobab] Intellectual Ventures = a monster troll with 27.000 patents and 362 satellite companies: 03 00:03
DaemonFCyeah, I think I'll probably wipe out the Windows 7 partition for Linux Mint as soon as my new TV tuner card gets hereSep 03 00:04
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DaemonFCusability, I think, is not something Ubuntu puts a lot of concern intoSep 03 00:09
DaemonFCif you use the computer for hours, the interface should at least be something you can stand to look atSep 03 00:10
DaemonFCtheir description of the "Human" theme several years ago hurt my eyes just to read it was like "warm colors and pleasing aesthetic earth tones"Sep 03 00:12
DaemonFCit ended up being GNOME set to crap brownSep 03 00:12
DaemonFCShuttleworth says there will be new artwork for Karmic, but as of Alpha 5 it hasn't landedSep 03 00:13
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_Hicham_what is your new tv tuner card ?Sep 03 00:14
_Hicham_and stop criticizing the themeSep 03 00:15
_Hicham_gnome is customizableSep 03 00:15
_Hicham_that is not sthg to complain aboutSep 03 00:16
DaemonFCit is, but it's not a good first impressionSep 03 00:16
_Hicham_for you maybeSep 03 00:16
DaemonFCnew users won't necessarily know how to install a new theming engine eitherSep 03 00:16
_Hicham_but a lot of users say they like itSep 03 00:16
MinceRthose who talk the most about usability tend to know the least about itSep 03 00:16
MinceRcase in point: crAppleSep 03 00:16
_Hicham_u don't have to install a theme engineSep 03 00:17
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DaemonFCUbuntu is like Windows 95 meets something from a Tim Burton horror movie with regards to their default layoutSep 03 00:17
_Hicham_a new user can do System>Preferences>ApperanceSep 03 00:17
DaemonFCbrbSep 03 00:19
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schestowitz"Reminder we are having a meeting tomorrow 12pm-3pm.  There will be aSep 03 00:23
schestowitzbash/zenity-tutorial at 2pm.Sep 03 00:23
schestowitzIf you haven't already done so, please sign up for the new google-groupSep 03 00:23
schestowitzmailing-list: Future announcements willSep 03 00:23
schestowitzbe sent to that list.Sep 03 00:23
schestowitzFinally, as the Solano Stroll is going to be the next event after this SundaySep 03 00:23
schestowitzwe are working on a banner and brochure.  Have a look at:Sep 03 00:23
schestowitz 03 00:23
schestowitz 03 00:23
schestowitzand comment on the forum about what you think.  The source files are alsoSep 03 00:23
schestowitzlinked from the forum:Sep 03 00:23
schestowitz 03 00:23
schestowitzHope to see you all tomorrow."Sep 03 00:23
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schestowitztrmanco: screenie looks goodSep 03 00:24
trmanco:DSep 03 00:24
*trmanco can't rest............. needs ........ more KkkDDEee!!Sep 03 00:25
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] @trmanco I'm on #KDE 4.3.1, have a look! [pic] 03 00:25
schestowitzI mess up the "RT"Sep 03 00:28
trmancoheheSep 03 00:30
trmancono worriesSep 03 00:31
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-BNc/#boycottnovell-[popey] Just watched a screencast about openmolar. Impressive!Sep 03 01:20
schestowitzgnSep 03 01:23
cubezzzI was wondering about Linux on Roomba, and it seems it's been done :)Sep 03 01:40
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cubezzzI found my SCO Xenix notesSep 03 02:31
cubezzznone of my notes refer to Microsoft Xenix, only SCO Xenix, then later on SCO Unix System VSep 03 02:32
cubezzzdated Feb 27, 1989Sep 03 02:32
cubezzznow maybe there were two different Xenix'sSep 03 02:34
cubezzzI seem to remember using Venix back in 1986Sep 03 02:35
DaemonFCI may just make my own kernel, I'm feeling dangerousSep 03 02:35
DaemonFCwhy not? :PSep 03 02:35
cubezzzlooking at wikipedia Microsoft did originally license Unix from AT&T in the late 70's, before my time as a programmerSep 03 02:37
cubezzzlooks like Venix died back in 1994Sep 03 02:38
cubezzzanyways, SCO in the old days was a pretty good companySep 03 02:39
cubezzzthey had good tech supportSep 03 02:39
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twitterHa ha.  Joel and Jammie might as well share their music online.  What's the RIAA going to do to them, sue them for another three million bucks?Sep 03 05:14
twitter 03 05:14
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WillWow.  Joe Wilcox really hates netbooks: 03 05:54
WillI'm sort of just sitting back indifferently until I see some ARM netbooks.  I might get one of those if the price is right.Sep 03 05:57
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twitterWilcox is a troll.Sep 03 06:06
twitterThe biggest killer of computers is Windows.Sep 03 06:09
twitterVista was so hated that it destroyed computer sales around the world.Sep 03 06:09
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twitterThe old saying is, "GNU/Linux turns trash into a new computer and Windows turns new computers into trash."Sep 03 06:10
twitterha ha ->  Could anything be more putrid?Sep 03 06:10
twittersee his image on the pageSep 03 06:12
twittersee also the source code to the same page with IE, IE7 and IE6 stylesheets and nothing else.Sep 03 06:13
twitter<!--[if IE]><link rel="stylesheet" href="" type="text/css" media="screen, projection" /><![endif]-->Sep 03 06:14
twitter<!--[if gte IE 7]><link rel="stylesheet" href="" type="text/css" media="screen, projection" /><![endif]-->Sep 03 06:14
twitter<!--[if lte IE 6]><link rel="stylesheet" href="" type="text/css" media="screen, projection" />Sep 03 06:14
twitter<script type="text/javascript" src=""></script><![endif]-->Sep 03 06:14
twitterdrrrrrr.Sep 03 06:14
twitteralmost as funny as that constipated little man expression of his.Sep 03 06:14
twitterlol -> Those fraking, margin-sucking minis are everywhere.Sep 03 06:15
twitterthe word is "fucking" Joe.  Use it or clear your thoughts.Sep 03 06:15
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twitterOh noes, people are not burning piles of cash for the Gods of Redmond!  -> Every netbook sold sucks sales from higher-margin and, granted, larger portables.Sep 03 06:17
twitterLOL ->  Netbooks are sucking air out of the room—bursting Windows!Sep 03 06:19
twitterIt's like someone cut off their air supply.  Call the Wahmulance!Sep 03 06:19
twitterJoin us Joe, you could be happy. 03 06:34
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twitterick.  chicks dumped into a meat grinder 03 06:46
twitteraliveSep 03 06:46
twitterM$ pushes for one lawless patent world 03 06:53
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-BNc/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] Intel — Like Microsoft — Uses Heavy Lobbying to Permit Own Crimes 03 08:41
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jargonstop being whiney bitchesSep 03 10:57
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oiaohm   Interesting read.Sep 03 11:14
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schestowitzFreenode is wobbly todaySep 03 13:33
taconethey probably enabled compiz on the servers.Sep 03 13:34
trmancohehSep 03 13:35
trmancoconversation is now working :DSep 03 13:35
trmancokonversation*Sep 03 13:43
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-BNc/#boycottnovell-[popey] Editing video with Pitivi again. Happy.Sep 03 13:54
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-BNc/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] Microsoft Takes Software Patents Agenda Up a Notch 03 14:11
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[popey] Woot! Another screencast in the can! Yippee!Sep 03 14:15
MinceRapparently schestowitz beat me to linking 03 14:23
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ThistleWebya can't blame MS for wanting a global patent system, it means they can concentrate resources corrupting one organisation, instead of having to spend on multiple slush fundsSep 03 14:38
ThistleWebwhen you're losing money hand over fist you have to try and cut spending in ways that don't cut the effectsSep 03 14:39
MinceRi can blame them for corrupting the worldSep 03 14:40
MinceRand continuing their attempts to do soSep 03 14:40
MinceRprofitability is no excuse for lack of ethicsSep 03 14:40
MinceRand it never will beSep 03 14:40
ThistleWebit's not right, but you can understand why they want to minimise the money they need to pay out to buy decisionsSep 03 14:42
MinceRi can understand itSep 03 14:43
MinceRand i despise itSep 03 14:43
ThistleWebof courseSep 03 14:46
ThistleWebit does seem like a naturla move for MS to makeSep 03 14:46
ThistleWebnatural*Sep 03 14:46
MinceRand naturally, the rest of the world doesn't defend itselfSep 03 14:47
ThistleWebnot to mention the fact that the US would make sure it's the US system that's replicated, with all it's flaws and exploitabilitySep 03 14:47
MinceRthese criminals are still allowed to live (and be rich) after all they've doneSep 03 14:47
MinceRwell, of courseSep 03 14:47
MinceRwe'd expect nothing less from the usaSep 03 14:47
MinceRbring "democracy"^Wcorruption to the worldSep 03 14:48
MinceRas if we didn't have enough alreadySep 03 14:48
schestowitzI agreeSep 03 14:49
schestowitzIt's down to awarenessSep 03 14:49
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schestowitzIf people realise that Microsoft is a political movement they might start bothering to do somethingSep 03 14:49
MinceRthey don't seem to be doing anything against other harmful political movements eitherSep 03 14:52
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schestowitzMinceR: that's the genius of the systemSep 03 14:55
schestowitzit keeps people fatigues and overly occupiesSep 03 14:56
schestowitz*piedSep 03 14:56
schestowitzBy the time they arrive at home they can't be bothered with anything others than lying on the couch peering at brainwashSep 03 14:56
schestowitzThey could easily arive at answers had they done some very fundamental research. Some do, and they are 'punished' for itSep 03 14:57
schestowitzThen, there are other defensesSep 03 14:57
schestowitzTake the 'education' system for exampleSep 03 14:57
schestowitzWho do you think decides on curriculum?Sep 03 14:57
schestowitzIt's more like an indoctrination systemSep 03 14:57
oiaohmGlobal patent system is a threat to MS more that it is to open source.Sep 03 14:58
MinceRhow so?Sep 03 14:58
oiaohmReason you don't normally sue the person without money.Sep 03 14:58
schestowitzThat's what zoobab saysSep 03 14:58
MinceRnot only people without money are doing FLOSSSep 03 14:58
MinceRand sw patents greatly impede FLOSSSep 03 14:59
oiaohmThey don't really.Sep 03 14:59
MinceRalso, m$ probably doesn't know what's good for them anywaySep 03 14:59
oiaohmAll cases so far over patents software has shown this.Sep 03 14:59
MinceRlike the VFAT case which ended with TomTom settling and degrading their own products?Sep 03 14:59
MinceRor the countless cases of sw patent FUD?Sep 03 15:00
MinceRor the novell/m$ deal and the accompanying shitstorm?Sep 03 15:00
oiaohmnovell/m$ deal MS is paying Novell.Sep 03 15:00
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oiaohmTomTom only pays for 2 years before they change there product not to use the MS patents.Sep 03 15:01
oiaohmSo ms makes bugger all from the software patents they hold.Sep 03 15:01
oiaohmYet they are paying out way more to groups who see MS as a soft target.Sep 03 15:02
oiaohmAnd will keep on paying out more.Sep 03 15:02
oiaohmThe advantage of a sold product is there is a single point to sue.Sep 03 15:02
oiaohmOpen source is multiable points harder and more time consuming to sue so less profitable for patent holder.Sep 03 15:03
MinceRthe novell/m$ deal resulted in a lot of FUD against linux, caused the community to be splinteredSep 03 15:05
oiaohmTake Redhat history with patents.  One of the largest installed bases.  You want redhat to pay a patent they will want to check it full.   Most of the time not pay just remove feature and rework.Sep 03 15:05
MinceRand is accompanied by the leadership of the linux project being corruptedSep 03 15:05
MinceRTomTom changes their product to do less.Sep 03 15:06
twitterM$ is increasingly divorced from reality.Sep 03 15:06
oiaohmWhat did they change to do less MinceRSep 03 15:06
MinceRthey must have removed the affected part of VFAT supportSep 03 15:06
MinceRiirc creating long filenamesSep 03 15:06
MinceR(on VFAT, obviously)Sep 03 15:06
twitterThe US patent system has punished them but is moving away from software and business patents.Sep 03 15:06
oiaohmNow did they have to use VFAT for long filenames MinceRSep 03 15:07
oiaohmAnswer is no.Sep 03 15:07
twitterPalin continues to provide amusement 03 15:07
oiaohmVFAT just make there product more windows compadible.Sep 03 15:07
MinceRis supporting VFAT a feature or is it not?Sep 03 15:07
twittervfat is an anti featureSep 03 15:07
MinceRit made their product compatible with the way almost all memory cards are formatted by defaultSep 03 15:07
oiaohmThere are other filesystems then can use.Sep 03 15:07
MinceRit made their product more interoperable.Sep 03 15:07
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[trmanco] A ver nos Mapas da Sapo onde fica a praça de batalha no Porto!Sep 03 15:07
MinceRthe option to use better filesystems was always there.Sep 03 15:07
twitterM$ interop is all one way, MinceR.Sep 03 15:08
MinceRthis change hurts TomTom and it hurts the user.Sep 03 15:08
MinceRthis wasn't m$ interop, m$ didn't do the development here.Sep 03 15:08
oiaohmThey could have been using the udf would have given the same interop for end user MinceR.Sep 03 15:08
oiaohmNo patent to pay.Sep 03 15:08
MinceRi'm not sure if udf is suitable for random-access storage media.Sep 03 15:08
twitterM$ does little to no development in the first place.  They are a distribution and a damn lazy one.Sep 03 15:08
oiaohmAnd every major OS support it.Sep 03 15:09
oiaohmudf does MinceRSep 03 15:09
MinceRiirc it was presented as an alternative to iso9660Sep 03 15:09
oiaohmudf is writable iso9660 is not designed for writing.Sep 03 15:09
MinceRonce again, the user always had the option to use UDF anyway.Sep 03 15:09
MinceRthey only get one less option nowSep 03 15:09
twittercameras and other devices do not need long file names, they can escape M$'s abuse at anytime.Sep 03 15:09
MinceRthey can be improved by using long filenamesSep 03 15:10
twitterthey use short names like dcim and img1234.jpgSep 03 15:10
oiaohmAlso MS patents only apply to having long and short file names.Sep 03 15:10
MinceRthey can use long names if they're programmed to do soSep 03 15:10
twitterI doubt anyone needs more than 9999 image names on a SD card.Sep 03 15:10
oiaohmSo device makers still can use long filenames with junk short filenames.Sep 03 15:10
MinceRjunk short filenames are less useful for the users.Sep 03 15:10
oiaohmand not be affected by the Ms patent.Sep 03 15:10
oiaohmThe device does not have control programs for dos MinceRSep 03 15:11
MinceRalso, developing the code to generate junk short filenames costs resourcesSep 03 15:11
twitterbut they can always use i1234567.jpg if they want.Sep 03 15:11
MinceRsuffering the lawsuit cost resourcesSep 03 15:11
oiaohmOr OS that will not show the long filenames either.Sep 03 15:11
MinceRcaring/worrying about it cost many other people resourcesSep 03 15:11
oiaohmso user will never know.Sep 03 15:11
MinceRall this for no good reasonSep 03 15:11
twitterthe code is already there, no money needs to be wasted.Sep 03 15:11
MinceRsome OSes will show only the short filenamesSep 03 15:11
twitterif money is to be spent, it will go towards another file systemSep 03 15:11
oiaohmAlso when exposed to windows it will correct the short filenameSep 03 15:12
MinceRthey'll still have to change the behavior of the systemSep 03 15:12
MinceRand they'll have to make new images and a new firmware release.Sep 03 15:12
twitterwhat do these other OSs need vfat for?Sep 03 15:12
twitterI only use it to read devices.Sep 03 15:12
twitterand I have long filename support anyway.Sep 03 15:12
oiaohmThere are a lot better filesystems for flash live and the like than vfat as well.Sep 03 15:12
MinceRmainly to interoperate with windows and possibly other OSes that they don't share other FSes with.Sep 03 15:12
oiaohmOnly reason they are not used is windows does not support them.Sep 03 15:13
MinceRtell that to all those people blindly using winblows.Sep 03 15:13
twitterWhy should I ask the ignorant what to do?Sep 03 15:13
oiaohmNote the fat patents don't effect reading the filesystem.Sep 03 15:13
oiaohmOnly writing to it.Sep 03 15:13
MinceR"i'll just transfer these files onto your computer via a usb flash drive. do you have ext2ifs installed?" "no and i won't." "damn."Sep 03 15:13
MinceRwhy should anyone suffer because of the patent system?Sep 03 15:13
oiaohmwho said the user will know.Sep 03 15:13
twitterNo.  I just hook up my laptop to their network and let them download everything via http.Sep 03 15:14
oiaohmThere is more than 1 way to skin the cat.Sep 03 15:14
MinceRnot always feasible.Sep 03 15:14
oiaohmYou know windows all versions support mounting ftp as a drive.Sep 03 15:14
twitterwell, then they suck and I doubt they have anything I need or want.Sep 03 15:14
MinceRif it inconveniences some of the users some of the time then sw patents have done harm to FLOSS.Sep 03 15:14
MinceRand they have.Sep 03 15:14
oiaohmIts inconvent to device makers.Sep 03 15:15
twitteroh sure, but Biski is dealing with all of that.Sep 03 15:15
oiaohmOnce device maker works out a way around it end user still ends up with a writeable drive mounted.Sep 03 15:15
twitterthey are only capable of harming their own users these days.Sep 03 15:15
MinceRif someone absolutely has to write that sort of vfat crap for some random reason, they can't choose to use linux like they could before.Sep 03 15:15
MinceRBiski isn't dealing with itSep 03 15:15
MinceRnothing isSep 03 15:15
oiaohmvfat is not need for windows compadiblity.Sep 03 15:16
MinceReven if it's against the law, sw patents keep working in the favor of the bad guys.Sep 03 15:16
MinceRas shown above.Sep 03 15:16
oiaohmudf middle could be used as well.Sep 03 15:16
twitterwhat do you mean?  M$ is delusionallSep 03 15:16
MinceRin some cases it could, in some other cases it couldn'tSep 03 15:16
oiaohmWhere devices real filesystem has a fake udf over the top for access.Sep 03 15:16
oiaohmGenerated by software.Sep 03 15:16
twitterGuitierez makes noise as if people will listen.Sep 03 15:16
MinceRthat would be hideously expensive.Sep 03 15:17
twitterHe's like Iraqi communications manager or something.Sep 03 15:17
oiaohmSupprisingly not MinceRSep 03 15:17
twitter"Software patents will conquer the world in 5 minutes!  Everyone will come to East Texas for justice!"Sep 03 15:17
schestowitzoiaohm: I disagree with what you writeSep 03 15:18
oiaohmExporting as ftp or udf cost about the same.Sep 03 15:18
schestowitzsw patents are very harmful to FOSSSep 03 15:18
twitter"You will do as I say!"Sep 03 15:18
MinceRwithout sw patents, you wouldn't have to export _at all_Sep 03 15:18
schestowitzYou seem to have latched onto the microsoft/IBM brainwashSep 03 15:18
twitterhis blithering shows that software patents are on the way out.Sep 03 15:18
schestowitzI'm doing a post about it ATMSep 03 15:18
MinceRyou could just write vfat on dumb mediaSep 03 15:18
schestowitzVery long postSep 03 15:18
MinceRinstead of having to implement NAS or a filesystem translator.Sep 03 15:18
twittersome resources, Roy, 03 15:18
oiaohmVfat direct access on flash also shortens live of flash due to not been effect order writing MinceRSep 03 15:19
MinceRdepending on the hardwareSep 03 15:19
oiaohmUser is paying for use of Vfat one way or the other.Sep 03 15:19
MinceRit might use wear levelingSep 03 15:19
MinceRthey probably all doSep 03 15:19
oiaohmWear leveling is more expensive hardware MinceR all because the file system does not have wear leveling.Sep 03 15:19
MinceRyet flash drives already need it.Sep 03 15:20
twitterThe EU has rejected software patents on several occasions.  The rest of the world wants nothing to do with US patent insanity or having the US tax their companies.Sep 03 15:20
MinceRand it isn't as expensive as NAS or filesystem translation.Sep 03 15:20
twitterSneaker net is so M$.Sep 03 15:20
oiaohmDevices like tom tom have big enough processor in general usage as a NAS.Sep 03 15:20
MinceRsee ballmer's quote on the practice of sw patents in the EU.Sep 03 15:20
oiaohmJust the processor is not used in export in current setup.Sep 03 15:21
MinceRalso, it still affects companies in the EU if they are to do business with the USASep 03 15:21
oiaohmIe you don't need to add more hardware.Sep 03 15:21
twitterShow me Ballmer's quote.  That should be amusing.Sep 03 15:21
MinceRand if m$ gets this latest mad scheme going, the EU will be affected too.Sep 03 15:21
oiaohmJust use the hardware already there more.Sep 03 15:21
twitterEver seen the movie "Downfall"?Sep 03 15:21
twitterthe only thing M$ is moving is their stock price, going down.Sep 03 15:22
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twitter"Please make netbooks go away!" cry the faithful.Sep 03 15:23
oiaohmschestowitz: I see software patents from a different point of view.   Software patents cause open source inteference.   Stuff open source is normally flexable to work around.Sep 03 15:23
twitter"Save us from the high margin end times."Sep 03 15:23
MinceRnot always flexible enough.Sep 03 15:23
oiaohmMS on the other hand.  Someone applies patents they just have to pay.Sep 03 15:24
oiaohmVfat patent push might at long last get rid of the crappy filesystem vfatSep 03 15:24
oiaohmA true long filename supporting filesystem would not need write as much to disk.Sep 03 15:25
MinceRi can't find the quote. i know i've seen it on BN.Sep 03 15:25
oiaohmAlso a true good file system would not fragement as much.Sep 03 15:25
twitterunemployment is not going away, 03 15:25
MinceRoiaohm: most OSes can't read nor write any good filesystems.Sep 03 15:25
oiaohmBasically vfat is crap and has only been used for windows comadiblity.Sep 03 15:25
twitterBallmer is full of quotes.  He's quite a character.Sep 03 15:25
oiaohmMac and Linux support other filesystems that are better and common between them MinceRSep 03 15:26
oiaohmAll software patents threat to do for MS is cause rebellion against them.Sep 03 15:27
twitterAmazing.  Someone fell off a cruise ship and was rescued. 03 15:27
oiaohmMost of the stuff they have patented is techically crap.Sep 03 15:27
oiaohmThat device makers have used because is the lazy solution for compadiblity.Sep 03 15:28
MinceRhow much power will that rebellion have behind it?Sep 03 15:28
MinceRnever enough.Sep 03 15:28
oiaohmEnough.Sep 03 15:28
oiaohmItems like tomtom to keep there low price cannot be paying patents.Sep 03 15:28
MinceRnot enough people careSep 03 15:29
MinceRand many people don't care enough.Sep 03 15:29
MinceRfor example, you don't care enough, as you've shown above. :>Sep 03 15:29
oiaohmThat is your problem.Sep 03 15:29
oiaohmWho need to care.Sep 03 15:29
twitterPeople care.  See Vista Failure.Sep 03 15:29
oiaohmDevice makers care about profit.Sep 03 15:29
twitterWatch Vista 7 and M$ itself implode.Sep 03 15:30
oiaohmThey will make it work for there end users without paying.Sep 03 15:30
oiaohmNothing so far Ms has is a 100 percent road block.Sep 03 15:30
twitterAs I pointed out, US companies are still firing people 03 15:31
oiaohmWith the presure of patents nothing is stoping devices makers form providing a driver disk to install a filesystem on windows either.Sep 03 15:31
oiaohmJust without patents they had no need to.Sep 03 15:31
twitter->  companies remain focused on cutting expenses as the economy emerges from its worst recession since the 1930s.             Applications fell by 4,000 to 570,000 in the week ended Aug. 29, exceeding the 564,000 median forecast of economists surveyed by Bloomberg News, figures from the Labor Department showed today in Washington. The total number of people collecting unemployment insurance climbed.             The firings are one Sep 03 15:32
twitterI don't know why they think there will be any buying while people are being fired.Sep 03 15:32
oiaohmLets just say device makers when a filesystem that just worked with Linux and Mac and not windows.Sep 03 15:32
oiaohmSo inversing the current day status of just works out box.Sep 03 15:33
twitter->  The economy has lost 6.7 million jobs since the recession started in December 2007, the most of any downturn since the Great Depression. Even so, the 247,000 drop in payrolls reported for July was lower than economists projected.!Sep 03 15:33
oiaohmThis has negitive effects on MS bottom line.Sep 03 15:33
oiaohmMS has nothing to gain from software patents.   But everything to lose.Sep 03 15:34
twitteranother month, another quarter million jobs gone.  The usual result is another quarter million families lose their home.Sep 03 15:34
oiaohmMinceR: you have to remember before the vfat attack there was no talk from device makers about building a new filesystem.   There is now.Sep 03 15:35
MinceR163809 < oiaohm> That is your problem.Sep 03 15:36
MinceR163824 < oiaohm> Who need to care.Sep 03 15:36
MinceRso you don't want FLOSS to succeed after all.Sep 03 15:36
twitterdisInformation Week continues to flog the Gmail outage.Sep 03 15:36
oiaohmFloss will succeed no matter the road blocks.  Cost is on its side MinceR.Sep 03 15:38
twitterGood Not News Item Material -> Michael Jackson and RIAA profits will finally be laid to rest tonight, after prolonged criminal investigation.Sep 03 15:38
oiaohmAs well as time MinceR.Sep 03 15:39
oiaohmSoftware patents only last a max of 20 years.Sep 03 15:39
oiaohmTo Floss that is a short time frame.Sep 03 15:39
MinceRoiaohm: the slower it succeeds, the more damage will happen.Sep 03 15:39
oiaohmto a commerical OS company to MS its life or death.Sep 03 15:39
MinceRoiaohm: also, remember that copyrights last only for a limited time, and it didn't help at all.Sep 03 15:39
twitterhmph.  LA Times smears Whole Foods movement ->,0,2592815.storySep 03 15:40
MinceRthey can just extend patents all the same.Sep 03 15:40
twitterBeans, oats and other grains are cheap.Sep 03 15:40
twitterprocessed foods, obesity and cancer are expensive.Sep 03 15:40
oiaohmRules of patents have been more tested than rules of copyright and more decided on what they are MinceR.Sep 03 15:40
MinceRapparently they aren't really decided on thatSep 03 15:41
oiaohmHeck there are copyrights in some countries that last for ever.Sep 03 15:41
MinceRsee all the sw patent stuff going on despite Bilski.Sep 03 15:41
oiaohmNever happened with patents.Sep 03 15:41
oiaohmNo patent anywhere has ever been issued for ever.Sep 03 15:42
oiaohmIe life time of patents is basically decided.Sep 03 15:42
twitterEU blocking Oracle/Sun deal? 03 15:42
twitterWow, a regulator that works.Sep 03 15:42
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] Patents Roundup: Patent Propaganda from the BBC, IBM in the Shadows, and Early Mistakes from David Kappos 03 15:42
oiaohmWhat can and cannot be patented is not decided MinceR.Sep 03 15:43
oiaohmCopyright is the other way.Sep 03 15:43
twitterIck, sorry to like M$ Jack.Sep 03 15:43
oiaohmWhat can be copyrighted is decided.Sep 03 15:43
oiaohmHow long the protection should last is not.Sep 03 15:43
twitterYou can take the opposite of what he says as worth knowing.Sep 03 15:43
twitter-> Kroes says: "The commission has to examine very carefully the effects on competition in Europe when the world's leading proprietary database company proposes to take over the world's leading open source database company." (Quoted from Bloomberg.)Sep 03 15:44
oiaohmOrcale has already taken over a lot of different open source databases.Sep 03 15:45
oiaohmregulators have been asleep at the wheel over it for a long time.Sep 03 15:46
schestowitzor storage enginesSep 03 15:46
schestowitzKroes is rightSep 03 15:46
schestowitzBut only cause her advisors told herSep 03 15:46
schestowitzShe can be boorish about techSep 03 15:46
schestowitzShe probably uses XPSep 03 15:46
oiaohmThinking Orcales main business is not there database any more.Sep 03 15:46
twitter....... not even a mac.......Sep 03 15:46
schestowitzShe also got conned into RAND when she had that meal with BallmerSep 03 15:47
oiaohmIts there intergrated services.Sep 03 15:47
schestowitzMaybe he slipped a mickey into her soup :-pSep 03 15:47
twitterWell, at least she's on the right track here.Sep 03 15:47
schestowitzYeahSep 03 15:47
twitterLet's promote good behavior.Sep 03 15:47
schestowitzUS was all giddySep 03 15:47
schestowitzNo regulationSep 03 15:47
schestowitzAnd Oracle uses legal bribery in EU nowSep 03 15:47
schestowitz"Lobbying"Sep 03 15:48
schestowitz"Forget logic, here's lot of money"Sep 03 15:48
twitterbblSep 03 15:48
*twitter has quit ("Leaving.")Sep 03 15:48
schestowitzHm.. I lumped too much stuff into last postSep 03 15:48
oiaohmThere is a main reason why I don't see software patents as a major threat to open source.Sep 03 15:51
oiaohmMost key techs theses days are almost 20 years old.Sep 03 15:51
schestowitz"If you don't know what ExFat's basically FAT64, andSep 03 15:51
schestowitzproprietary to Microsoft and introduced with Windows Vista Sp1"Sep 03 15:51
schestowitz'Our agreement with Microsoft does not allow us to develop an openSep 03 15:51
schestowitzsource exFAT driver at the moment. However, we have been also talkingSep 03 15:51
schestowitzabout this with them. What I think nobody wants is something similarSep 03 15:51
schestowitzwhat you have for example with Linux DVD players: there are openSep 03 15:51
schestowitzsource players available, but no company can support them because theSep 03 15:51
schestowitzmedia companies will sue right away ..'Sep 03 15:51
schestowitz 03 15:51
schestowitzoiaohm: what does that have to do with sw pats?Sep 03 15:52
oiaohmWho does that end up effecting schestowitz.Sep 03 15:52
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oiaohmIts the same as what video codec format people who tried changing dvd players for them.Sep 03 15:53
oiaohmThe format will end up with intermit support.Sep 03 15:53
oiaohmSo less usable to end users.Sep 03 15:53
oiaohmWhat MS is doing with software patents is killing there new common formats.Sep 03 15:54
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MinceR170007 < oiaohm> Most key techs theses days are almost 20 years old.Sep 03 15:55
MinceR"most" is not "all"Sep 03 15:56
MinceRand it takes one key tech to make a product impossible.Sep 03 15:56
oiaohmThat is also what is different now.Sep 03 15:57
MinceRexcept no, it has never been different and it isn't different nowSep 03 15:58
oiaohmLinux and OSS in general is almost to the point of being able to accept closed source bits for the key bits when need that are not 20 years old.Sep 03 15:58
MinceRand it will never be different as long as sw patents will mean you can patent a vague ideaSep 03 15:58
MinceRaccepting proprietary bits is by no means idealSep 03 15:58
oiaohmSo users not majorally effected.Sep 03 15:58
MinceRit's something to avoid, not a goal.Sep 03 15:58
oiaohmI did not say it was ideal.Sep 03 15:58
oiaohmThe ammount of usablity damage software patents can do is min to open source.Sep 03 15:59
oiaohmWe are not forced to use pure open source to solve all problems with open source.Sep 03 15:59
MinceRbut if we are forced to use proprietary software, we lose a lot of thingsSep 03 16:00
MinceRwe became hostage to its owner.Sep 03 16:00
schestowitz Reboot for UK's 'oldest' computer < >Sep 03 16:01
schestowitzMSBBC lets us talk to a felon: 03 16:02
oiaohmYou are also not forced to by devices that are limited either MinceR.Sep 03 16:03
MinceRsureSep 03 16:04
MinceRi could live without mobile phonesSep 03 16:04
MinceRfor exampleSep 03 16:04
oiaohmMost of what is patented is sureface annoyances.Sep 03 16:05
oiaohmItems that people could choose just to vote with there feet against.Sep 03 16:05
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[popey] New screencast: "Ubuntu Partitioning" 03 16:05
oiaohmSo leaving particular items just sitting on the self until open source drivers are released not patented locked.Sep 03 16:06
oiaohmI am not saying that we don't have to fight patents MinceR.Sep 03 16:06
schestowitzGPs to ask for donor organ consent < >Sep 03 16:06
oiaohmI am saying they are not a live and death threat to open source.Sep 03 16:06
MinceRmaybe not life and death, but certainly a threat.Sep 03 16:06
oiaohmMore an annoyance.Sep 03 16:07
schestowitzit's like cancerSep 03 16:07
oiaohmWe have options of waiting them out.Sep 03 16:07
schestowitzIt won't kill you oivernightSep 03 16:07
oiaohmThey simpley will not kill open source.Sep 03 16:07
schestowitzPatents: the tobacco of softwareSep 03 16:07
oiaohmOpen source has waited out the worst.Sep 03 16:07
MinceRif we are immortal then yes, we can wait them outSep 03 16:07
oiaohmLike font rendering patents.Sep 03 16:07
oiaohmThat one is kinda key.Sep 03 16:07
oiaohmNo one likes a documents print like crap due to bad font processing.Sep 03 16:08
oiaohmThat is MS problem we have basically all ready waited out the key patents.Sep 03 16:09
oiaohmThey have to try to make new key patents or they have nothing on open source.Sep 03 16:09
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] "The Sermilik fjord in Greenland: a chilling view of a warming world" < > #globalwarmingSep 03 16:09
oiaohmexfat is an attempt to make a new key patent.Sep 03 16:09
MinceRas long as the sw patent system exists, we'll be forced to play their stupid game or lose.Sep 03 16:10
oiaohmThat is incorrect.Sep 03 16:10
oiaohmOnce OSS has enough market share they will have to pay by OSS rules.Sep 03 16:10
oiaohmpay/playSep 03 16:10
MinceRif FLOSS can't provide key features then it can't competeSep 03 16:10
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oiaohmexfat is not going to effect everyone MinceR.Sep 03 16:11
oiaohmAll feature now are just fragments.Sep 03 16:12
MinceRonly those who use media in gadgets that use it.Sep 03 16:12
oiaohmYet all media gadgets will not use itSep 03 16:12
oiaohmSo users will still be free to vote with feet.Sep 03 16:12
schestowitzBristol public given right to decide whether graffiti is art or eyesore < >Sep 03 16:13
MinceRi'm not so sure about thatSep 03 16:13
oiaohmMain reason all gadgets will not use it cost  MinceRSep 03 16:13
oiaohmSoftware patents shot the holder.  By causing market to fragment.Sep 03 16:14
oiaohmIts the thing MS over looked when they though software patents could damage open source.Sep 03 16:15
MinceRthen the holder will allow everyone who doesn't use FLOSS to use the patent free of chargeSep 03 16:15
oiaohmSo patent holder makes no money from patent.Sep 03 16:15
oiaohmAgain no win holding the patent.Sep 03 16:15
oiaohmYou have to pay to take out patents and keep them.Sep 03 16:16
oiaohmThere is no victory for closed source from having patents.  Only a huge black hole in there bottom line.Sep 03 16:17
MinceRthey make no money from it directly, but they make FLOSS unable to compete.Sep 03 16:17
MinceRremember that m$ is trying to utterly destroy FLOSS.Sep 03 16:17
oiaohmI am.Sep 03 16:17
oiaohmBut the problem is attempt to utterly destroy FLOSS is destroying themselves.Sep 03 16:18
oiaohmEverything they are attempting is having negitive effects.Sep 03 16:18
oiaohmOn them.Sep 03 16:18
MinceRthe question is who gets harmed more.Sep 03 16:18
oiaohmMS is.Sep 03 16:18
oiaohmLower the profit margins they make.Sep 03 16:19
schestowitz 03 16:19
oiaohmLess money they have for patents.Sep 03 16:19
oiaohmThink about all the crap patents ms takes out and pays for MinceRSep 03 16:19
MinceRthey still have a lot of money they can spendSep 03 16:20
oiaohmAt this stage.Sep 03 16:20
MinceR(unsure if it's money they really have, but that's irrelevant currently)Sep 03 16:20
oiaohmPatents are basically MAD mutually assured destruction.Sep 03 16:20
oiaohmThe harder you try to fight with patents if you don't make profit they will kill you.Sep 03 16:20
oiaohmMS would not be the only company consumed by there own patent list.Sep 03 16:21
MinceRand many of the developers m$ is fighting has no money for this crap.Sep 03 16:21
oiaohmSo not worth sueing.Sep 03 16:22
oiaohmBecause it will cost more to sue them than the money MS could get.Sep 03 16:22
oiaohmThat is the problem there is no profit in patents.   Profit with patents come from making a good product and using patents to protect from coping.Sep 03 16:23
oiaohmName the last good product MS made MinceRSep 03 16:23
MinceRthey made a good product?Sep 03 16:24
oiaohmeSep 03 16:24
oiaohmExcactySep 03 16:24
MinceRi can name good products they've sold, but they haven't made any of themSep 03 16:24
MinceREnsemble Studios made some of themSep 03 16:24
MinceRbut they killed EnsembleSep 03 16:24
MinceRsome font foundries made othersSep 03 16:25
oiaohmHow is MS going to profit from there patents.Sep 03 16:25
oiaohmThat is what I cannot answer.Sep 03 16:25
MinceRthey might not even profit, they're merely trying to kill FLOSS.Sep 03 16:25
oiaohmEvery time I look at it MS has nothing good enough to make profit.Sep 03 16:25
MinceRthey hope they can profitSep 03 16:25
oiaohmKill Floss is impossiable.Sep 03 16:25
MinceRif all else fails, by becoming a true patent troll with no productsSep 03 16:25
oiaohmBest they can hope for is slow it down.Sep 03 16:25
MinceRslowing it down causes lots of damageSep 03 16:26
MinceRto usSep 03 16:26
oiaohmEven a lot of patent trolls are going out of business.Sep 03 16:26
MinceRthey should have no right to do soSep 03 16:26
oiaohmBecause they are finding it harder and harder to get people to pay up.Sep 03 16:26
oiaohmWe have past the peek of Patent effective extraction of money in 2008Sep 03 16:27
oiaohmOnly a few companies left that pay up simply.   1 is MS.Sep 03 16:27
oiaohmPatent troll is only profitable if you don't need long complex trials to make people pay up and if person you are attacking has the money to pay.Sep 03 16:28
oiaohmSo will not be forced to fight.Sep 03 16:28
oiaohmSee my issue.  The time of patents as a effective weapon is passing.  To use them as an effective weapon you require market dominance.Sep 03 16:30
oiaohmOr good productsSep 03 16:30
MinceRothers may yet come up with good productsSep 03 16:30
oiaohmPatents don't stop that.Sep 03 16:31
oiaohmJust stop others doing it the same way.Sep 03 16:31
MinceRthose who come up with good products might use sw patents against FLOSS, thoughSep 03 16:32
oiaohmApple freetype.Sep 03 16:33
Diablo-D3hehSep 03 16:33
oiaohmFonts MinceRSep 03 16:33
oiaohmIts already happened  we know the outcomes MinceR.Sep 03 16:33
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oiaohmMost damage a patent does to open source is temp slowing down progress that is it.Sep 03 16:34
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oiaohmFont patents were a hardware class.  So apply in most countries that support patents.Sep 03 16:34
oiaohmNot like far reaching patents did not exist before software patents were created.Sep 03 16:35
oiaohmThere is a lot of history on it MinceR.   There is no profit using software patents against open source.   Open source coders have the bad habit of working around patent limitation.Sep 03 16:36
oiaohmSo reducing the effective market for the patent.Sep 03 16:36
oiaohmIBM is smartter than MS.  Allow open source to use your patents.  So work around to patents don't appear and you can rip money out of closed source companies so making patent profitiable.Sep 03 16:37
oiaohmEnd result patents affective weapon against closed source.Sep 03 16:39
oiaohmMinor distruptions to open source.Sep 03 16:39
oiaohmI would not be supprised that once exfat comes common some patent trolls appear sueing MS over parts in it.Sep 03 16:41
oiaohm,1000000121,39728699,00.htm  Hmm I did not read this close enough.Sep 03 16:45
oiaohmNTFS will be free and clear by there deal.Sep 03 16:46
oiaohmNow that would be wrong if the new default file format on devices become that.Sep 03 16:46
schestowitzbrbSep 03 16:51
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**** BEGIN LOGGING AT Thu Sep 3 16:55:19 2009
*Now talking on #boycottnovellSep 03 16:55
*Topic for #boycottnovell is: Communication about anything, including Microsoft, Novell, and Free software [publicly logged]Sep 03 16:55
*Topic for #boycottnovell set by schestowitz at Fri Jun 12 18:24:05 2009Sep 03 16:55
-ChanServ-[#boycottnovell] Welcome to the #boycottnovell channelSep 03 16:55
*ChanServ gives channel operator status to schestowitzSep 03 16:55
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schestowitzIBM Partners to Offer Green Data Center Degree < >Sep 03 16:59
*schestowitz removes channel operator status from schestowitzSep 03 17:00
schestowitzoiaohm: many good news items in LinuxforDevicesSep 03 17:00
schestowitzThey also mended the old RSS feedSep 03 17:00
schestowitzThey have the old URL link to the new site nowSep 03 17:01
schestowitzIt seems like Henry leftSep 03 17:01
schestowitzAfter RickSep 03 17:01
schestowitzSo the lesser known people run the site for eWeek nowSep 03 17:01
oiaohmI did report it when they first broke it.Sep 03 17:04
oiaohmAparently it just got to top of repair list.Sep 03 17:05
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[zoobab] There is a need for more patent trolls against Google. They have too much money, and they have too stupid patent agents: 03 17:06
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oiaohmPatent troll vs search engine not a wise move.Sep 03 17:07
oiaohmMany have tried.Sep 03 17:07
oiaohmGoogle is extreamly good at finding prior art and rendering patents void.Sep 03 17:08
Diablo-D3oiaohm: get thisSep 03 17:08
Diablo-D3(you're going to love this part)Sep 03 17:08
Diablo-D3google owns a search engine.Sep 03 17:08
MinceRwow, really?Sep 03 17:08
Diablo-D3<google> lets see here, GOOGLE! SEARCH FOR "PRIOR ART"Sep 03 17:09
Diablo-D3mwhahahahSep 03 17:09
schestowitzYouTube UK welcomes back the music < > How is denying people access to one's portfolio beneficial for business anyway? They never learn.Sep 03 17:09
schestowitzHeheSep 03 17:11
schestowitzMaybe that's why Google made Google patentsSep 03 17:11
schestowitzTo search for prior art to defend self ;-[Sep 03 17:11
Diablo-D3schestowitz: wowSep 03 17:11
Diablo-D3thats the best plan everSep 03 17:11
Diablo-D3its like a reverse patent troll trollSep 03 17:11
schestowitzIf you're not careful, you could become recursive troll(TM)Sep 03 17:13
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oiaohmAnd google was the first to put a search line in center of screen.Sep 03 17:14
oiaohmwayback machine combind with google search engine.Sep 03 17:15
oiaohm2 of the biggest nightmares for patent holders.Sep 03 17:15
Diablo-D3oiaohm: bwhahahaSep 03 17:17
Diablo-D3the internet: worst thing ever to people with moneySep 03 17:17
Diablo-D3no wonder they're always trying to destroy itSep 03 17:17
MinceRwhat a novel ideaSep 03 17:17
MinceRputting the search line in the center of the screenSep 03 17:17
Diablo-D3yarlySep 03 17:17
MinceRi'm simply astonishedSep 03 17:17
MinceRseriously, they have patented thatSep 03 17:17
Diablo-D3probably to prevent bing from doing itSep 03 17:18
MinceRit's ridiculous that the USPTO allowed them to patent thatSep 03 17:18
Diablo-D3MinceR: wellSep 03 17:19
Diablo-D3it could have been intentional in that its a stupid patentSep 03 17:19
schestowitzThere's prior artSep 03 17:19
MinceR:)Sep 03 17:19
schestowitzmany apps put a search bar at the centreSep 03 17:19
schestowitzSo to hell with Google's meta-employees (lawyters)Sep 03 17:20
Diablo-D3schestowitz: shushSep 03 17:20
Diablo-D3google never does shit without a planSep 03 17:20
Diablo-D3they could be very well trying to destroy software patentsSep 03 17:20
schestowitzNopeSep 03 17:20
schestowitzI saw sessionsSep 03 17:20
schestowitzVideosSep 03 17:20
schestowitzGoogle is not against sw patsSep 03 17:20
schestowitzAFAIKSep 03 17:20
schestowitzI could find the videoSep 03 17:20
Diablo-D3they mostly areSep 03 17:20
Diablo-D3they find them problematicSep 03 17:20
Diablo-D3google is a company that creates ideasSep 03 17:21
Diablo-D3patents are bad for such companies because faggots love to sue themSep 03 17:21
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DaemonFCon further inspection, I fixed my webcam microphoneSep 03 17:26
DaemonFCit was Pulseaudio that was the problem, I upgraded to a newer version and edited my configuration file, it works now, and I'm not asking questions :PSep 03 17:27
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trmancotold yaSep 03 17:32
DaemonFCsometimes it does work, sometimes it doesn'tSep 03 17:33
DaemonFCsometimes waving a live chicken over it and threatening shaman voodoo curses worksSep 03 17:34
DaemonFCit's Pulseaudio :)Sep 03 17:34
schestowitzDiablo-D3: watch the languageSep 03 17:34
schestowitzNo, sounds like Windows, DaemonFC Sep 03 17:35
DaemonFCPulseaudio has me more vexed sometimes than the worst Windows problems I've encounteredSep 03 17:35
schestowitzRed Hat pumps out commercial KVMSep 03 17:35
DaemonFCwhen it *does* work, I like itSep 03 17:35
schestowitz 03 17:35
schestowitz>     How to fix your Windows Application when it doesn?t work:Sep 03 17:35
schestowitz> Sep 03 17:35
schestowitz>       (1) Stop and start the programSep 03 17:35
schestowitz>        (2) Log in and log out againSep 03 17:35
schestowitz>         (3) Reboot the machineSep 03 17:35
schestowitz>          (4) Reinstall the application againSep 03 17:35
schestowitz>           (5) Reinstall the operating systemSep 03 17:35
schestowitz>            (6) Dance naked around the machine, waving a rubber chickenSep 03 17:35
schestowitz>             (7) "Take your machine back for servicing"Sep 03 17:35
schestowitz>                 - Chris Wedgwood Sep 03 17:35
MinceRlolSep 03 17:36
schestowitzBut MinceR, it's not a joke, it's TRUESep 03 17:37
DaemonFCschestowitz: You forgot "unhide the hidden AppData folder and delete the program settings folder"Sep 03 17:37
MinceRi knowSep 03 17:37
DaemonFCthat usually gets whatever it is working againSep 03 17:37
MinceRand it's only funny until you're forced to use winblowsSep 03 17:38
MinceRthen it becomes painfulSep 03 17:38
schestowitz"Cash4Gold Sues Consumerist, Complaints Board Over Reports On Cash4Gold Practices" 03 17:38
schestowitzCash4Gold = bastardsSep 03 17:38
schestowitzNukem' to orbitSep 03 17:38
DaemonFCCash4Gold is a scam, it's all over the placeSep 03 17:38
DaemonFCthey try to pay you to remove anything bad you say about them if you get high enough on Google's rankingsSep 03 17:38
schestowitzOr they sue youSep 03 17:39
DaemonFCwell, this is amusing.....Sep 03 17:39
DaemonFCBanshee has not been updated for the new Last.FM API, not even on the 1.5.x branchSep 03 17:39
trmancofinally got filters to work in kmailSep 03 17:39
DaemonFCRhythmbox still worksSep 03 17:40
DaemonFCschestowitz: Apparently Scott Richie *did* get around to fixing the issue I emailed him about in his Ubuntu packages for WineSep 03 17:41
DaemonFChis packages are no longer tied to specific versions of libalsaSep 03 17:41
schestowitzTHis one relates to Google's new 'patent' 03 17:41
*schestowitz uses Exaile atmSep 03 17:41
DaemonFCbefore, if you had a newer libalsa than what shipped in Ubuntu, Wine's ALSA driver wouldn't workSep 03 17:42
DaemonFCyou have to update libalsa to update Pulseaudio, so updating Pulseaudio yourself would obvious cause that problem with WineSep 03 17:42
DaemonFC*obviouslySep 03 17:43
DaemonFCWhat does Last.FM stream in anyway? Sounds like Vorbis or AACSep 03 17:43
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] What is *this*? 03 17:45
DaemonFCoh this is bogus, they censor their streamsSep 03 17:46
schestowitzCalifornia court asks: is coffee label reprinting a re-publication? 03 17:48
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schestowitzwb, PetoKraus Sep 03 17:49
PetoKraushello roySep 03 17:49
PetoKraushow's the tricks?Sep 03 17:49
schestowitzAll's wellSep 03 17:49
schestowitzHad recarpeting here all morning.Sep 03 17:50
PetoKrausheheSep 03 17:55
PetoKrausi could use that tooSep 03 17:55
PetoKrausour vacuum cleaner broke like 2 months agoSep 03 17:55
PetoKrausand since infiniti properties takes an infinity to reply to every requestSep 03 17:55
Diablo-D3 03 17:55
PetoKrauswe still don't have a replacement oneSep 03 17:55
DaemonFC 03 18:10
DaemonFC 03 18:11
DaemonFCthe terminal goes crazy with fixme's and Wine has to duke it out with SecuROM, but it does win in the endSep 03 18:11
DaemonFCand the game installs :)Sep 03 18:11
PetoKrausheheSep 03 18:12
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DaemonFCalso the Knights of the Nine and Shivering Isles disc worksSep 03 18:16
DaemonFC 03 18:16
DaemonFCit complains about dxdllreg.exe crashing for some reason, but it's safe to ignore that it seems, the game still worksSep 03 18:17
DaemonFCalso SecuROM gets confused after installing each disc and hangs in the terminal, a Ctrl+C will kill itSep 03 18:18
DaemonFCthe game's already isntalled, it's too late for it to stop youSep 03 18:18
DaemonFCalso a wineserver -k after that just to clear up any possible lingering stenchSep 03 18:20
DaemonFCB-)Sep 03 18:20
schestowitzmsec future and plans < >Sep 03 18:20
schestowitzInteresting that former Mandriva employees who are not at Red Hat speak about Cooker in the mailing lists, stillSep 03 18:21
schestowitzPetoKraus: so that letter didn't work out, then.Sep 03 18:21
schestowitzSome landlord (in the UK I think) sued someone for using twitter to make a short message complainingSep 03 18:22
DaemonFCschestowitz: Adam Williamson still posts on the Mandriva PlanetSep 03 18:22
ThistleWebschestowitz: I believe that was the USSep 03 18:22
DaemonFChe was their community manager, to be honest I would have fired him too after a few of the things he's postedSep 03 18:23
ThistleWebhe tried to sue others like twitter for hosting the comments too I thinkSep 03 18:23
schestowitzDaemonFC: well, both RPMsSep 03 18:23
schestowitzMandrake was made from Red HatSep 03 18:23
DaemonFCI think he was shown the door and allowed to call it a layoffSep 03 18:23
schestowitzRed Hat cares more about the server anyway, so they don't compete muchSep 03 18:23
DaemonFCMandriva has a server versionSep 03 18:23
DaemonFCbut that's not their main business, so yeahSep 03 18:24
schestowitzThe Ubuntu post?Sep 03 18:24
DaemonFCamong other thingsSep 03 18:24
schestowitzOr the one about encryption?Sep 03 18:24
DaemonFChe also posted once about "respecting intellectual property"Sep 03 18:24
schestowitzThe ""asshats" post..Sep 03 18:24
DaemonFCthat really set me off at himSep 03 18:24
schestowitzHe mailed me about securitySep 03 18:24
schestowitzStill disagreeingSep 03 18:24
schestowitzI left it at thatSep 03 18:25
schestowitzI don't think it was his posts thoughSep 03 18:25
schestowitzMandriva cut off other peopleSep 03 18:25
DaemonFCUbuntu does quite a few things I disagree with, but nothing that can't be fixed by the userSep 03 18:25
DaemonFCor by another distribution that uses them as a baseSep 03 18:25
schestowitzBesides, adamw is the only one giving them presenceSep 03 18:25
schestowitzDuval was the interesting caseSep 03 18:25
DaemonFCyeah, I'd be pissed if I started the company then it fired meSep 03 18:26
DaemonFCbut to be fair, he probably gave them the power to do it earlier on, not thinking that they may do it somedaySep 03 18:26
DaemonFCputting your company on the stock exchange means it's no longer really your companySep 03 18:26
schestowitzDianne Green and her hunsbandSep 03 18:27
schestowitzTucci the asshole (Ballmer's friend) took her outSep 03 18:27
schestowitzHer hunsband leftSep 03 18:27
schestowitzSome *berg guySep 03 18:27
schestowitzThen the Chieft scientist/CTOSep 03 18:27
schestowitzNow VMware is run by Microsoft dronesSep 03 18:28
schestowitzTucci must be pelasedSep 03 18:28
DaemonFCI need to figure out how to get rid of this searchjacking link they put in Firefox, hehSep 03 18:31
DaemonFCthe one that takes you to the "Linux Minr" customized Google searchSep 03 18:31
DaemonFC*MintSep 03 18:31
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sebsebsebhiSep 03 18:31
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DaemonFC 03 18:47
DaemonFCRestore Google Search in Firefox on Linux MintSep 03 18:47
DaemonFC 03 18:51
DaemonFC"Leaders at Huntington County Community Schools have apparently agreed to remove those controversial bible trailers from the property of one of its schools."Sep 03 18:51
DaemonFC"The Journal says a federal judge agreed the "By the Book Weekday Religious Instruction" program violated part of the constitution, by allowing religious instruction on school property."Sep 03 18:51
DaemonFCwhat an embarrassment to this townSep 03 18:52
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schestowitzWeird 'articles'...... 03 18:54
schestowitzDaemonFC: LOLSep 03 18:55
DaemonFCmy town was ordered by the federal government to stop violating the First Amendment to the US ConstitutionSep 03 18:56
DaemonFC:PSep 03 18:56
schestowitzJoomla responds to IBM X-Force security reportSep 03 18:58
schestowitz"Earlier this week, an IBM X-Force report said that the open source Joomla! content management system led in unpatched vulnerabilities."Sep 03 18:58
schestowitz 03 18:58
schestowitzSeparation of state.... and school... or church... or ScientologySep 03 18:58
DaemonFCyepSep 03 18:59
DaemonFCthey probably saw what a pain in the ass that continuing to defend that would beSep 03 18:59
DaemonFConce all the other churches and religions showed up demanding to park their own trailers out there :PSep 03 18:59
DaemonFCnevermind the fact that the school district was using tax money to defend their caseSep 03 19:00
schestowitzInternet celebrates 40th birthday: but what date should we be marking?: "The internet celebrates its birthday today, September 2, with 40 years having passed since the first successful transfer of data between two computers." 03 19:01
schestowitzLike most things, there is no universal firstSep 03 19:01
schestowitzLike "First computer"Sep 03 19:01
schestowitzDefinition-dependentSep 03 19:01
DaemonFCschestowitz: Linux Mint has Moonlight pluginSep 03 19:01
DaemonFCby defaultSep 03 19:01
DaemonFCI just noticed thatSep 03 19:01
schestowitzIt also has MonoSep 03 19:02
DaemonFCI wonder if they've strapped in for the impending lawsuitSep 03 19:02
schestowitzThat's rubbishSep 03 19:02
DaemonFCwell, yeah, but most GNOME distributions have MonoSep 03 19:02
DaemonFCbut not MoonlightSep 03 19:02
schestowitzCodecs too?Sep 03 19:02
DaemonFCI don't knowSep 03 19:02
DaemonFCwhere can I test that?Sep 03 19:02
schestowitzDoesn't matterSep 03 19:02
schestowitzLeave it @ thatSep 03 19:02
DaemonFCI have yet to see an actual Silverlight site that works with MoonlightSep 03 19:02
schestowitzit's like trying to find the pony in a horse raceSep 03 19:03
Diablo-D3 03 19:04
Diablo-D3wowSep 03 19:04
Diablo-D3they still have the pre-microsoft awards upSep 03 19:04
DaemonFCI may swing by that Stargate Universe website and see if their image gallery worksSep 03 19:05
DaemonFCI'm kind of doubting that thoughSep 03 19:05
schestowitz*sigh* the house still smells like glueSep 03 19:07
Diablo-D3well stop huffing it thenSep 03 19:08
DaemonFCit doesn't work btwSep 03 19:09
DaemonFC:PSep 03 19:09
schestowitzI'll take a look at newsSep 03 19:09
schestowitzHacking Swine Flu < >Sep 03 19:10
DaemonFCschestowitz: It does have codecs though, they're using ffmpeg, not the Microsoft onesSep 03 19:10
schestowitzOKSep 03 19:10
cubezzz-laptopcomputer used to mean a person who computes :)Sep 03 19:15
DaemonFCthe 2.0 Beta doesn't work much for "cross platform"Sep 03 19:15
cubezzz-laptopfinally figured out qsopcastSep 03 19:16
cubezzz-laptopgot recording to workSep 03 19:16
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[trmanco] Lendo as feeds calmamente!Sep 03 19:18
cubezzz-laptoppre-microsoft awards?Sep 03 19:18
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-BNc/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] If Windows is a Copy of the Competition, Whose OS is GNU/Linux a 'Copy' of? 03 19:22
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] #Linutop 3 is Released Into the Wild 03 19:23
cubezzz-laptopeveryone copied Xerox I'd saySep 03 19:23
cubezzz-laptopXerox Alto FTWSep 03 19:25
schestowitzcubezzz: hand calculators...Sep 03 19:27
schestowitzcubezzz: yes, Bungee was ruined by MicrosoftSep 03 19:27
schestowitzThey complaint just over a year agoSep 03 19:27
schestowitzOthers was victims tooSep 03 19:27
schestowitzFISA, Ensemble, the FLight Sim guy....Sep 03 19:28
schestowitzcubezzz: yes, but they leaped ahead of XeroxSep 03 19:28
schestowitzIt's all cumulativeSep 03 19:28
schestowitzLike many FOSS projectsSep 03 19:28
schestowitzTake WordPress for exampleSep 03 19:28
schestowitzb2 extendedSep 03 19:28
cubezzz-laptopwho was first with the gui after Xerox?Sep 03 19:28
schestowitzI'm not sure they invinted GUIsSep 03 19:29
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] #Library Poisoned by #DRM Sad.Sep 03 19:29
schestowitzYou must leap backSep 03 19:29
cubezzz-laptopX maybe?Sep 03 19:29
schestowitzThere's usually a whole progress that's not an overnight lip lampSep 03 19:29
schestowitzExample:Sep 03 19:29
schestowitzWhat if prototyping of the interface was done on paper before?Sep 03 19:29
schestowitzMetaphoicallySep 03 19:29
schestowitzIn science it's the sameSep 03 19:29
schestowitzSome inventions in astology were made in AlexandriaSep 03 19:29
cubezzz-laptopright, I think Douglas Engelbart invited the mouse, perhaps before AltoSep 03 19:30
schestowitzAfter the burning of their library people rediscovered the same thing after the Dark AgesSep 03 19:30
schestowitzGeometry and observations in the sky mostlySep 03 19:30
schestowitzcubezzz: I'm sure he was inspiredSep 03 19:30
cubezzz-laptopI know of nothing before Alto re: GUISep 03 19:30
schestowitz"It was Edison who said "1% inspiration, 99% perspiration". That may have been true a hundred years ago. These days it's "0.01% inspiration, 99.99% perspiration", and the inspiration is the easy part. As a project manager, I have never had trouble finding people with crazy ideas. I have trouble finding people who can execute. IOW, "innovation" is way oversold. And it sure as hell shouldn't be applied to products like MS Word or OpeSep 03 19:30
schestowitzn office." --Linus TorvaldsSep 03 19:30
cubezzz-laptopbut who was next after Alto, I'm wonderingSep 03 19:30
schestowitzLinux learned from minixSep 03 19:30
*DaemonFC has quit ("Leaving")Sep 03 19:31
schestowitz*LinusSep 03 19:31
cubezzz-laptopSun maybeSep 03 19:31
cubezzz-laptopthere were quite a few in the 80'sSep 03 19:32
schestowitzGraphics stuff -- yesSep 03 19:33
schestowitzALso some stuff Apple 'stole'Sep 03 19:33
schestowitzI put it in scare crow cause I think it's permissible and naturalSep 03 19:33
schestowitzIt's like saying "I stole my research" cause I studied from booksSep 03 19:33
schestowitzBy that definition, teachers should charge students for patents or something when educating themSep 03 19:34
schestowitzMany GUI ideas were trivialSep 03 19:34
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] Hunt for the "Perfect Operating System" Ends with... #Ubuntu #GNU #Linux 03 19:34
schestowitzEsp. if you have months or years to think it overSep 03 19:34
cubezzz-laptopDeskmate, GEM, AmigaDOS, Mac, all around the same timeSep 03 19:36
cubezzz-laptopbut W window system was the first after Alto I thinkSep 03 19:36
cubezzz-laptopW in 83 and X in 84Sep 03 19:36
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] #Vista7 Fails to Match #GNU #Linux in 64-bit 03 19:37
cubezzz-laptopmicrosoft windows should not be the dominant systemSep 03 19:37
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cubezzz-laptopI mean, what gives you real control? Not windows, certainlySep 03 19:38
cubezzz-laptopFOSS all the waySep 03 19:38
DaemonFCaddons are readily availableSep 03 19:38
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DaemonFConce you replace nearly everything that comes with Windows, it almost works OK :PSep 03 19:38
schestowitzcubezzz: APIs Sep 03 19:38
schestowitzDevelopers Developers Developers Sep 03 19:38
schestowitzAnd lockinSep 03 19:38
schestowitzHidden APIsSep 03 19:38
schestowitzWrapping them all upSep 03 19:38
cubezzz-laptopLinx Kernel compile KOs windows I'd saySep 03 19:38
schestowitzI have Comes exhibits from the 80s about itSep 03 19:39
schestowitzNeed doing, stillSep 03 19:39
schestowitzcubezzz: esp. on ARMSep 03 19:39
DaemonFCschestowitz: You can set the Windows bootloader to chain load GRUB, that way if you upgrade Windows later, it won't clobber GRUB and your option to boot to Linux is still thereSep 03 19:40
DaemonFCI've never seen anyone mention thatSep 03 19:40
cubezzz-laptophow about I just don't use windows :)Sep 03 19:40
cubezzz-laptopw00tSep 03 19:40
schestowitzI never doSep 03 19:40
schestowitzI write about it thoughSep 03 19:40
schestowitzA lotSep 03 19:40
cubezzz-laptopI looked at some windows 7 screen shots, just out of curiousitySep 03 19:41
DaemonFCI've used it, it's clear that they're trying to clone what's worked in other systemsSep 03 19:42
cubezzz-laptopMicrosoft was never appealing, it seems it was _forced_ on the masses (and OEMs)Sep 03 19:42
DaemonFCPaul Thurrott always somehow amuses me thoughSep 03 19:43
schestowitzYes, Kempin et alSep 03 19:43
schestowitzBullyingSep 03 19:43
schestowitzThreats and blackmail tooSep 03 19:43
cubezzz-laptopit's all bullying thoughSep 03 19:43
DaemonFCin his Windows Me review he foretold the death of Explorer in the then-coming Windows XPSep 03 19:43
DaemonFCin favor of a "highly customizable XML-based user interface"Sep 03 19:43
cubezzz-laptopGates was on WNED with his Dad, talking about using computers to help kids learnSep 03 19:43
cubezzz-laptopthey never mentioned wikipedia onceSep 03 19:44
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] #Linux #Kernel Supports the Most #Hardware 03 19:44
DaemonFCthen you got like three colors of one theme and had to pay extra or crack the theming engine to load moreSep 03 19:44
DaemonFClolSep 03 19:44
DaemonFCand they were just dressing up ExplorerSep 03 19:44
cubezzz-laptopthere's some really good anti-trust videos on youtube, explaining the role of governmentSep 03 19:45
DaemonFCWindows always ends up being "Bad Stuff Cordon Bleu" because once something is introduced, they can never get rid of it without breaking thousands of other applicationsSep 03 19:45
schestowitzcubezzz: they believe in 'IP'Sep 03 19:46
DaemonFCit's like a realtor that tries to cover up black mold by painting itSep 03 19:46
schestowitzAs in, let the kids pay for knowledge when they have some penniesSep 03 19:46
schestowitzThey think they help... the content industrySep 03 19:46
cubezzz-laptopyeahSep 03 19:46
schestowitzDrug industries tooSep 03 19:47
schestowitzBy chargingSep 03 19:47
schestowitzAs if not putting people in debt for buying life-saving drugs would mean no more development of drugsSep 03 19:47
schestowitzIt's like saying that software development would stop overnight without diretcb profitSep 03 19:47
schestowitz(never mind h/w, services, etc.)Sep 03 19:47
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[davidgerard] an excellent example in how to nail medical frauds to the wall. the ASA are really quite effective. (HT @bengoldacre)Sep 03 19:48
schestowitzcubezzz: but we can't undrstandSep 03 19:48
*jono has quit ("Later, Skater")Sep 03 19:48
schestowitzYou're in CA and I'm in the UKSep 03 19:48
schestowitzYou need to ask people in BrazilSep 03 19:48
schestowitzOr IndiaSep 03 19:48
schestowitzOr Kenya, assuming they all even understand these issues (few do)Sep 03 19:48
schestowitzThey are the vast majority of the population, not much in wealth even when combinedSep 03 19:48
DaemonFCthey basically just reverse engineer drugs made by first world companiesSep 03 19:48
DaemonFCdon't pay royaltiesSep 03 19:48
schestowitzSot he distribution of impact is assumed to lie with the wealth of the universe,Sep 03 19:49
DaemonFCthat we way get stuck with all the development costs and they make them for pennies a tabletSep 03 19:49
schestowitzNot all life are created equal of the hypothesisSep 03 19:49
schestowitzOr 'We know better what's good for them"Sep 03 19:49
schestowitzIt's all reinforcement- and justification-basedSep 03 19:49
DaemonFCreverse engineering and cloning is hardly newSep 03 19:49
DaemonFCthe Soviets cloned things we madeSep 03 19:49
DaemonFClike the Zilog Z-80Sep 03 19:49
schestowitzAs in, the rich prick will make up some fairy tail to perfume his/her aactSep 03 19:49
schestowitzThen disseminate the mythSep 03 19:50
schestowitzSee patent office for exampleSep 03 19:50
schestowitzOf the industry that calls us thieving piratesSep 03 19:50
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DaemonFCschestowitz: As long as you pay billions of dollars to show me how to do something, I can clone what you did for a fraction of the priceSep 03 19:50
schestowitzThey have already drawn images of their customerSep 03 19:50
DaemonFCcloning and pulling ahead are two different thingsSep 03 19:50
DaemonFCas long as you rely on there being something to clone, you'll always be behindSep 03 19:50
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cubezzz-laptopI just what to have choicesSep 03 19:51
cubezzz-laptopI shouldn't be forced to buy a windows computerSep 03 19:51
cubezzz-laptopsure, everyone learns from the other guySep 03 19:51
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DaemonFCit's important to lead or else you become dependent on whatever other people decide to doSep 03 19:52
DaemonFCan example would be Ubuntu just reassembling work done by everyone elseSep 03 19:53
DaemonFCthey can never have anything new of importance as long as they have to rely on Fedora and Suse and Debian doing all the work for themSep 03 19:53
DaemonFCthey can reassemble it and slap their logo on the sideSep 03 19:53
DaemonFCevery time they try to introduce something new, like notify-osd and the indicator crapplet it's like "Something wicked this way comes"Sep 03 19:54
DaemonFCLinux Mint doesn't have the indicator crapplet, but you do have to set things like Pidgin to reside in the tray or else they just closeSep 03 19:55
DaemonFCI noticed that almost anything that isn't exclusive to Mint pulls the packages out of the Ubuntu repositorySep 03 19:56
DaemonFCnothing like getting the other guy to pay your bandwidth usage for you I guessSep 03 19:56
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] #Vixta 7 is Already Out and It Has Amazing 3-D Features like #Compiz 03 19:57
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] #CrossOver Games 8.0 Kills the " #Linux Not for #Games " Myth 03 19:59
DaemonFCCrossover Games will probably go on to kill CedegaSep 03 20:00
DaemonFCthe only thing holding it back was copy protectionSep 03 20:00
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] The New #Slackware #Linux Seems Well Received 03 20:02
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] #RedHat 's Future Looks Good as Public Company 03 20:04
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] First Details About Red Hat Enterprise #Linux 6 #rhelSep 03 20:06
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] #RedHat Brings #KVM to Maturity 03 20:06
DaemonFClooks like the SoundConverter people strike againSep 03 20:09
DaemonFCthey've dumbed down the 11 point quality scale of Vorbis to 5 settingsSep 03 20:09
DaemonFCto get it to use q5 (~160), you have to use the gconf-editor, hehSep 03 20:10
DaemonFCthe GUI jumps from q4 to q6Sep 03 20:10
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] #Ubuntu #Linux #Servers Target #HP Servers 03 20:11
cubezzz-laptopjust saw an ad for a waterproof camera, the commercial shows people on bikes and the camera mounts on the handlebarsSep 03 20:12
cubezzz-laptopfor a second it looked like it was called Lunix, but it's "Lumix" :)Sep 03 20:12
DaemonFChehSep 03 20:12
DaemonFCI've been having a battle with a dimwit involving someone's computer I was working onSep 03 20:13
MinceRbut does it run Limux?Sep 03 20:13
cubezzz-laptopI think this is Russian TV I'm watching, not sureSep 03 20:14
DaemonFCit's a shared family computer and it was on Windows XP (really old system, Pentium 3 1 Ghz and 320 megs of RAM)Sep 03 20:14
cubezzz-laptopah, Lumix is by PanasonicSep 03 20:15
DaemonFCanyway, it was clobbered by spyware, this time for good, and it was going to be re-install XP anyway so I put Linux on it to try to save them from themselvesSep 03 20:15
DaemonFCnow his mother is angry because she doesn't know how to use the system, after I spent hours diligently copying over every document, picture, and MP3 they hadSep 03 20:15
DaemonFCand making it all workSep 03 20:16
cubezzz-laptopDaemonFC, you have to ask for permission, I always doSep 03 20:16
DaemonFCwell, I thought I had itSep 03 20:16
DaemonFCwhoopsSep 03 20:16
cubezzz-laptopdon't put Linux on there without explaining firstSep 03 20:16
DaemonFChe told me it was OK, he knows what it isSep 03 20:16
DaemonFCoh well, they'll get over itSep 03 20:17
DaemonFCthey didn't even still have their Windows XP disc, the system just kind of "had it" when they bought it off someoneSep 03 20:17
cubezzz-laptopdual boot, get both on there and if they don't like Linux then they can boot back into dozeSep 03 20:17
DaemonFCso it's not like I could have reinstalled XP anywaySep 03 20:17
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] #EU May Block #Oracle #Takeover of #MySQL 03 20:19
cubezzz-laptopquestion for the gurus: if a file is growing and the partition it's on is close to full, is it possible to move the file to /mnt/usb2 without a problem?Sep 03 20:19
DaemonFCcubezzz-laptop: If you give me the choice of a real time antivirus program and a routine backup, I'd choose the routine backup because a lot of the worst spyware damages the systemSep 03 20:19
DaemonFCto where even if you remove it, Windows is still brokenSep 03 20:19
DaemonFCthese antivirus companies are the biggest con artists that there has ever beenSep 03 20:20
cubezzz-laptopyeah, that's yet another reason not to use dozeSep 03 20:21
DaemonFCeven if it is free, it's because they gutted out something important or constantly bombard you with pop up advertisements to get the full thingSep 03 20:21
cubezzz-laptopit's like a high maintainence gf :)Sep 03 20:21
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DaemonFCand even if you pay for it, it's no guarantee it will stop anything from getting throughSep 03 20:22
cubezzz-laptopI'm very happy with Fedora 10Sep 03 20:22
cubezzz-laptopno inclination of using windows at allSep 03 20:23
_goblinhi all!Sep 03 20:23
cubezzz-laptophi _goblinSep 03 20:23
DaemonFCantivirus is like buying a warranty for your car that looks great on paper, and then in a microdot somewhere it absolves them from any responsibilities to make good on the protection you think you boughtSep 03 20:23
DaemonFC$60 a year is steep even if it *always* workedSep 03 20:23
DaemonFCslowing down your system like they do is a bad price to pay even if it *always* workedSep 03 20:24
cubezzz-laptopDaemonFC, there's AVG free edition, and malwarebytes is free and trend micro has a free online serviceSep 03 20:25
DaemonFCalmost every Windows system I work on that has been obliterated by malware is running antivirusSep 03 20:25
cubezzz-laptopbetween all of those you should be able to keep things cleanSep 03 20:25
DaemonFCAVG is worthlessSep 03 20:25
_goblinClamWin was a package I used to use when I was a Windows addict.Sep 03 20:25
DaemonFCClamWin is OK as a second opinion I guessSep 03 20:25
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] #Kindle is Good Only When #Hacked 03 20:26
DaemonFCI always upload the installers I downloaded to something like Virus TotalSep 03 20:26
_goblinsorry to butt in on the conversation.....Sep 03 20:26
DaemonFCget the opinion of like 40 different scannersSep 03 20:26
cubezzz-laptopwell, let me put it this way...Sep 03 20:27
DaemonFCwhat I love is when like 20 of them say it's infected and the other 20 say it's notSep 03 20:27
cubezzz-laptopI charge $40 to reinstall XP, do the driver thing and backup the dataSep 03 20:27
cubezzz-laptopOR I'll put Linux on for freeSep 03 20:27
DaemonFCIt's like going to two doctors, one tells you you're healthy as a horse, the other tells you you've got 6 months to liveSep 03 20:27
DaemonFCand they both send you the billSep 03 20:27
cubezzz-laptopalmost no one goes for the free :-0Sep 03 20:27
DaemonFCand you leave knowing as little as before you asked themSep 03 20:27
twitterCharge $75/hour and you might do better.Sep 03 20:28
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] Alternative for Intellectual Monopolies is Proven 03 20:28
twitterStandard charges for wipe and reload are more than $100 around here, before data backup.Sep 03 20:28
cubezzz-laptoppeople think it's normal to reinstall 2 or 3 times a yearSep 03 20:28
DaemonFCridiculousSep 03 20:28
cubezzz-laptopwow, maybe I could charge a bit more then :)Sep 03 20:28
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] Movie Being Illegally Shared Lifts Its Success, Copyrights Challenged 03 20:29
DaemonFCif it's family or friends, I end up working on their systems for freeSep 03 20:29
cubezzz-laptopok, for friends at least get a pizza or dinnerSep 03 20:29
DaemonFCso I always try to twist their arm into choosing a Linux distribution so I won't hear from them unless something just stumps them cause it works differently than WindowsSep 03 20:29
DaemonFCI'd rather spend a few minutes answering a question about how something works then spending 5-6 hours once every couple months reinstalling Windows for themSep 03 20:30
cubezzz-laptopdual boot works for most folksSep 03 20:30
trmancocan somebody shout at me, I want to test somethingSep 03 20:31
DaemonFCit may, but I'd rather be done with Windows, for a number of reasonsSep 03 20:31
twitterthis is something that can and should be fixed in comments ->  in pro-Microsoft posts, there’s LOTS of Microsoft keywords, the post is littered with them, which makes them great consumption for the spiders, yet when it’s stories which are negative, Microsoft keywords are hardly mentionedSep 03 20:31
DaemonFCtrmanco trmanco trmancoSep 03 20:31
DaemonFCnow he appears behind meSep 03 20:31
DaemonFC:PSep 03 20:31
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] New Type of #IntellectualMonopoly Shows #USPTO Needs to be Disbanded 03 20:32
twitterTRMANCO HAS A WONDERFUL TEST FOR EVERYONE!!!!!! ->  trmanco: can somebody shout at me, I want to test somethingSep 03 20:32
twitteris that loud enough?Sep 03 20:32
trmancoit doesn't seem soSep 03 20:32
trmanco...Sep 03 20:32
trmancokonversation didn't warn me of anythingSep 03 20:33
DaemonFCschestowitz: I think I attracted another astroturfing agencySep 03 20:33
DaemonFClinked from a "Buzz Metrics"Sep 03 20:33
twittertrmanco,  trmanco,  trmancoSep 03 20:33
trmancoplease shout againSep 03 20:33
twitter(12:40:24 PM) twitter: TRMANCO HAS A WONDERFUL TEST FOR EVERYONE!!!!!! ->  trmanco: can somebody shout at me, I want to test somethingSep 03 20:33
trmancodangSep 03 20:34
trmancostill not notifying meSep 03 20:34
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] Hypocrisy @ The Register: El Reg Writers Get #Schwag from #Microsoft, The Register Whines 03 20:35
twitterThe M$ Register?Sep 03 20:37
twitterThe Cash Register?Sep 03 20:37
cubezzz-laptopthe first time is always free :)Sep 03 20:38
cubezzz-laptopthen... you PAYSep 03 20:38
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] #Microsoft's #Patent Thug #Myhrvold Uses Satellites to do the #Trolling 03 20:39
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] Microsoft Shows It Does Not Give a * About Security 03 20:39
trmancotwitter: can you please try again...Sep 03 20:39
twittertrmancoSep 03 20:39
trmancohahaSep 03 20:39
trmancoc000lSep 03 20:39
trmancoit now worksSep 03 20:39
trmancothat was easySep 03 20:39
twittersecret?Sep 03 20:39
trmanconahSep 03 20:39
twitterI've had trouble with Kopete too.Sep 03 20:40
twitterwhereSep 03 20:40
twitter's the setting?Sep 03 20:40
trmancoall I did was configure notifications in konversation to work with knotifySep 03 20:40
twitterok, thanksSep 03 20:40
trmancoin konversation I went to settings>configure notificationsSep 03 20:41
trmancoI thought that the highlight options would do the job but it didn'tSep 03 20:41
twitterhmmm.Sep 03 20:42
twitter  of a key jobs report Friday.  They always wait for Friday afternoon for bad news.Sep 03 20:42
trmancoI'm loving kdeSep 03 20:43
trmancoI don't regret that changeSep 03 20:43
cubezzz-laptopI'm using old kde stillSep 03 20:44
twitterKDE is nice.  E16 is still my favorite.  I still use Pidgin and notifications were a sticking point.Sep 03 20:44
cubezzz-laptop3.4.2 it does the job on my old boxSep 03 20:44
twitterLenny lost the independent KDE panel, now I use stalone tray.Sep 03 20:44
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[trmanco] Venda de computadores em Portugal aumenta 61,4 por cento: 03 20:45
trmanco4.3.1 worksSep 03 20:45
trmancostill has some bugs but nothing bigSep 03 20:45
twitterWoops, that's testing that lost the panel.Sep 03 20:45
trmancoit's not a vanilla kdeSep 03 20:45
twittertesting is now on 4.2 somethingSep 03 20:46
trmancoso it's "update-notifier-kde" in python is a resource hogSep 03 20:46
twitterKonqueror is 4.2 has some nice new goodies but has lost some things too.Sep 03 20:46
trmancoit's a known memory leak... 230 megs after 1 days of uptime just for a appletSep 03 20:46
twitterI still get my work done with KDE 3.5Sep 03 20:46
trmancoI use konquerer from time to timeSep 03 20:47
trmancoit should move top webkitSep 03 20:47
cubezzz-laptopI thought that KDE 4+ was overly elaborateSep 03 20:47
trmancoto*Sep 03 20:47
cubezzz-laptopif I get a new box I'll try it againSep 03 20:47
trmancoit hogs 230 megs at startupSep 03 20:48
trmancono swapSep 03 20:48
twitterSales not as bad as predicted, only half missed their mark, ha ha.  Happy days are here again... -> 03 20:48
twitternotSep 03 20:48
trmancoit«s not bad taking into consideration all the eyecandy it hasSep 03 20:48
schestowitztrmanco: depends on how much RAM you haveSep 03 20:49
schestowitzI reckon it sees how much is availableSep 03 20:49
cubezzz-laptopLinux doesn't give one it's creation time does it?Sep 03 20:49
trmancoright now it's hogging 650 MB of ram 93 MB of swap and I have a bunch of app openSep 03 20:49
cubezzz-laptopfor a file?Sep 03 20:49
schestowitzThen allocates some sparesSep 03 20:49
trmancoI'm seeing this with htopSep 03 20:50
trmancoI actually like itSep 03 20:51
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trmancoI'm still in that fase of transitionsSep 03 20:51
trmancoand I also have some gnome stuff loadedSep 03 20:51
trmancokde is lighterSep 03 20:51
twitterZDNet and Amazon try to lecture Google on Copywrong.  "Make it like 1984" they might as well tell everyone. 03 20:52
twitter"No libraries, please.  Sharing is bad."Sep 03 20:53
twitterTooth and nail riot. 03 20:54
cubezzz-laptopwe must leverage our IP (since we don't manufacture anything)Sep 03 20:54
cubezzz-laptopj/kSep 03 20:55
DaemonFCsure they doSep 03 20:55
DaemonFCthey manufacture frivolous lawsuitsSep 03 20:55
DaemonFCthat kind of puts them in the manufacturing business, right? B-)Sep 03 20:56
cubezzz-laptopUnix doesn't store file creation time, dohSep 03 20:56
cubezzz-laptopit seems Linux doesn't eitherSep 03 20:56
DaemonFCit stores last access timestampSep 03 20:57
DaemonFCunless you mount it without that option which some people don't like because it confuses 2-3 programs like PineSep 03 20:57
DaemonFC:PSep 03 20:58
cubezzz-laptopI want to know file creation time thoughSep 03 20:58
cubezzz-laptopoh wellSep 03 20:58
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-BNc/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] Just finished watching the 6th episode of Cosmos YouTube has all the episodes. On to 7th...Sep 03 21:02
DaemonFCI finally switched over to Ext4 which doesn't have the sheer tweak potential of XFSSep 03 21:06
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[davidgerard] Nuclear beer: Old Tom Cat, 8.5%. Only sold in small bottles, not pints. Very nice, but by crikey you can taste the alc/vol.Sep 03 21:07
DaemonFCbut it has enough of the features of XFS that I'm OK with itSep 03 21:07
schestowitzHahaha. It's called the "Milky Way" cause the stars are milk from the breast of a goddesses, said the Greek WHy the obsession with sexual organs in superstition?Sep 03 21:17
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[davidgerard] @schestowitz cosmos is one of the best tv series ever ever ever. get the dvds 03 21:28
cubezzz-laptopI'm just barely old enough to remember the original star trek on NBC :)Sep 03 21:29
cubezzz-laptopcosmo is old isn't it?Sep 03 21:30
cubezzz-laptopcosmosSep 03 21:30
DaemonFCmy dad had it on Select-A-Vision discsSep 03 21:31
DaemonFCyou tell meSep 03 21:31
DaemonFC:PSep 03 21:31
neighborleeeww thats going way too far back ;0-0Sep 03 21:31
neighborleebut they were sorta kewl for the time :)Sep 03 21:32
cubezzz-laptopSelect-A-Vision?Sep 03 21:32
Diablo-D3 03 21:32
Diablo-D3look at subby's nickSep 03 21:32
DaemonFC 03 21:33
DaemonFCheheSep 03 21:33
DaemonFCcubezzz: It's like vinyl records only you don't take them out of the caseSep 03 21:33
DaemonFCthe player does thatSep 03 21:33
neighborleewoah never seen that..I thought you meant those hand held jobbies o_0Sep 03 21:33
DaemonFCeach side holds just over an hour of videoSep 03 21:33
DaemonFC:)Sep 03 21:33
Diablo-D3laserdisc?Sep 03 21:34
DaemonFCnoSep 03 21:34
Diablo-D3ooh, what then?Sep 03 21:34
DaemonFCthis predates laserdisc by over a decadeSep 03 21:34
Diablo-D3but whaaaat is it?Sep 03 21:34
cubezzz-laptopkindle is evil, no?Sep 03 21:34
DaemonFCI already described themSep 03 21:34
Diablo-D3whats the name of itSep 03 21:34
DaemonFC 03 21:34
DaemonFCselectavisionSep 03 21:34
neighborleeubuntu is the evil not kindle revisiting using pcbsd so they can keep mono all they wantSep 03 21:35
neighborleeI know other friends who were fed up with ubuntu too and going to pcbsdSep 03 21:35
neighborleeshrugSep 03 21:35
cubezzz-laptopDaemonFC, you can corner the market on select-a-vision to digital conversion :)Sep 03 21:35
DaemonFCwhy would you want to?Sep 03 21:35
DaemonFCDVDs have twice the resolutionSep 03 21:35
DaemonFCand they fit on one side of the disc :PSep 03 21:36
Diablo-D3whaaaaaaatSep 03 21:36
Diablo-D3no waySep 03 21:36
Diablo-D3a record with video on it?Sep 03 21:36
DaemonFCDiablo-D3: YesSep 03 21:36
Diablo-D3wowSep 03 21:36
cubezzz-laptopcan it record??Sep 03 21:36
Diablo-D3I knew RCA was dumb, but wowSep 03 21:36
Diablo-D3cubezzz-laptop: noSep 03 21:36
cubezzz-laptopnow I'm wondering if anyone did video on cassette tape :-)Sep 03 21:38
DaemonFCyeahSep 03 21:38
DaemonFCSonySep 03 21:38
DaemonFCVHS-CSep 03 21:39
DaemonFCremember those?Sep 03 21:39
cubezzz-laptopyeah I have thoseSep 03 21:39
cubezzz-laptopright, duh :)Sep 03 21:39
DaemonFCthroughout the 80s and most of the 90s it was a race between RCA (later Thomson) and Sony over who could come up with the dumbest shitSep 03 21:40
DaemonFCnow it seems to be Microsoft and SonySep 03 21:40
DaemonFCMicrosoft via proxy of Toshiba lost the HD-DVD vs Blu Ray fightSep 03 21:41
DaemonFCnow it's still XBOX 360 vs PS3 for gamingSep 03 21:41
DaemonFCit's really getting to where the digital file formats are far more important than the physical mediaSep 03 21:42
neighborleethere is no war there..ps3 pwnsSep 03 21:42
neighborleelolSep 03 21:42
DaemonFCand so Microsoft was hoping to get VC-1 popularSep 03 21:42
DaemonFCso they could roll in royalty moneySep 03 21:42
neighborleeseriously..who wants to spend an extra $100 just to  get online, when you can have a ps3 bluray machine for same price or a bit less,,I cant imagine whoSep 03 21:42
DaemonFCwell, PS3 is losing more moneySep 03 21:43
neighborleebut yes pooor MS needs something at least they can call a success since vista andwin7 sure aint it,, least from stats ive seen of late suppporters ofwin7Sep 03 21:44
neighborleeI seriusly doubt thatSep 03 21:44
DaemonFCthey can't keep offering free online service, that's just killing them fasterSep 03 21:44
neighborleehwo do you lose more than ms did on 360..I seriously doubt thatSep 03 21:44
DaemonFCcause the PS3 isn't exactly reliable eitherSep 03 21:44
neighborleeyes, it isSep 03 21:44
DaemonFCit's just not AS unreliable as the 360Sep 03 21:44
neighborleeive never had one problem.Sep 03 21:44
DaemonFCSony has a track record of bad hardwareSep 03 21:44
DaemonFCPS2 disc drive lasers dyingSep 03 21:45
DaemonFCSony charges $100 to fix their manufacturing defectsSep 03 21:45
neighborleemy ps2 was perfect,,until I traded it in for a wiiSep 03 21:45
DaemonFCMicrosoft does it for freeSep 03 21:45
neighborleeI hate it for several yerasSep 03 21:45
neighborleeearsSep 03 21:45
cubezzz-laptopdvd/bluray stuff doesn't have good longevitySep 03 21:45
neighborleemy friend still has her and she'es never given any indication of any troublesSep 03 21:45
cubezzz-laptopspindle motor always goesSep 03 21:45
neighborleeurl ?Sep 03 21:46
DaemonFCso really if your PS3 dies even once you've paid the equivalent of 3.5 years on XBOX LiveSep 03 21:46
DaemonFC:)Sep 03 21:46
neighborleenot if you factor in  the price of a  wireless device LOLSep 03 21:46
DaemonFCthey're both pumping you for the same amount of moneySep 03 21:46
DaemonFCjust have different pea and shell gamesSep 03 21:46
neighborleeAND if you factor in, that everyone you talk to for 360 support.could not handle speaking good engrishSep 03 21:47
DaemonFCand now you can't even run Linux on a PS3 anymoreSep 03 21:47
cubezzz-laptopI've gone through a ton of cdr drives since 1998Sep 03 21:47
cubezzz-laptop1 year warranty FTLSep 03 21:47
DaemonFCcubezzz-laptop: When a DVD-RW drive dies, you can get a new one for $20Sep 03 21:48
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[davidgerard] Alan #Turing story on #Newsnight tonight! that's in half an hour. on the website later, presumably. here's to August :-DSep 03 21:48
DaemonFCit's like they're disposable anywaySep 03 21:48
cubezzz-laptopI don't what disposableSep 03 21:48
cubezzz-laptopwant evenSep 03 21:48
DaemonFCwell, everything wears outSep 03 21:48
cubezzz-laptopit could last a _bit_ longerSep 03 21:48
DaemonFCthis $20 drive is better than a $100 drive would have been 4-5 years agoSep 03 21:48
cubezzz-laptopor at least be repairableSep 03 21:48
DaemonFCand better than a $300 drive 6-8 years agoSep 03 21:49
cubezzz-laptopthe VFD works, the power supply works, just the spindle motor is gone, so the whole thing is uselessSep 03 21:49
DaemonFCprices go down, manufacturing costs even out, patents expire, and the reliability goes upSep 03 21:49
DaemonFCif you buy the first generation of any hardware you're an idiotSep 03 21:49
cubezzz-laptopso for the sake of a $10 part I have to buy a whole new unitSep 03 21:50
DaemonFCcubezzz-laptop: I meant internal burnersSep 03 21:50
DaemonFCtakes you like 5 minutes to swap it outSep 03 21:50
DaemonFC:)Sep 03 21:50
cubezzz-laptopoh sorry, I was talking stand-alone dvd playerSep 03 21:50
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[davidgerard] @schestowitz you really don't want to watch cosmos at YouTube quality. get the dvds :-)Sep 03 21:51
DaemonFCoh, those are like $40 at any WalmartSep 03 21:51
DaemonFCthe upconverting ones that also support DivX and h.264 files are not more than $70Sep 03 21:51
cubezzz-laptopyeah I ended up buying a pioneerSep 03 21:51
Diablo-D3 03 21:51
cubezzz-laptopif I could get 10 years out of some electronic device, and sometimes I do, I'd be happy with thatSep 03 21:52
cubezzz-laptopobviously a lot of stuff isn't built to last that longSep 03 21:53
amarsh04I ended up buying a low-end pioneer dvd player for my parents - looks like it was built to last and if fine for use with an analogue tvSep 03 21:53
DaemonFCI don't buy Sony productsSep 03 21:54
DaemonFChaven't bought a Sony product since the XCP rootkit scandalSep 03 21:54
cubezzz-laptopwell, I don't shop at Walmart :)Sep 03 21:54
DaemonFCI still have a PS2Sep 03 21:54
DaemonFCWindows is popular because it's all they have at WalmartSep 03 21:55
cubezzz-laptopI was pretty disappointed with my last sony dvd player, that's why I switched to pioneerSep 03 21:55
Diablo-D3 03 21:55
DaemonFCMary Jane Rottencratch and her Walmart eMachineSep 03 21:55
Diablo-D3virt is your godSep 03 21:55
DaemonFC:)Sep 03 21:55
DaemonFC*RottencrotchSep 03 21:55
DaemonFCschestowitz: Does HP still tell customers that have installed Linux to go eat shit?Sep 03 21:56
cubezzz-laptopnot the devs I'm sureSep 03 21:56
cubezzz-laptopor internal guys :)Sep 03 21:57
DaemonFCI think my favorite HP experience was sending in my Compaq laptop in over a malfunctioning touchpadSep 03 21:57
DaemonFCI sent it in with Mandriva and got it back with XPSep 03 21:57
cubezzz-laptopHP has there own *nix don't they?Sep 03 21:57
cubezzz-laptoptheirSep 03 21:57
DaemonFCyeah, but they're not pushing it anymoreSep 03 21:57
DaemonFCHP-UXSep 03 21:58
DaemonFCthey also have Compaq's Tru64Sep 03 21:58
DaemonFCthey don't sell it but they still honor the existing support contractsSep 03 21:58
Diablo-D3 03 21:58
DaemonFCI think you can still buy a server with HP-UXSep 03 21:59
DaemonFCbut their real business is selling Red HatSep 03 21:59
DaemonFCif your customers twist your arm and tell you they're buying Linux from SOMEONE.....Sep 03 21:59
Diablo-D3who? hp?Sep 03 21:59
DaemonFCwell, that's why HP started giving it to themSep 03 21:59
Diablo-D3dude, they're buying sun's hardware businessSep 03 21:59
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[trmanco] ♻ @cenourinha: RT @_joanasilva_ RT @itwitting: Foram descobertos dois anticorpos que neutralizam o vírus da Sida ...Sep 03 22:00
DaemonFCRHEL and Suse are the only things you're likely to see on a corporate serverSep 03 22:00
DaemonFCUbuntu hasn't had a great deal of success getting their stuff preinstalled on anything that's likely to turn them a profitSep 03 22:01
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[trmanco] ♻ @cenourinha: ♻ @_joanasilva_ ♻ @itwitting: Foram descobertos dois anticorpos que neutralizam o vírus da Sida 03 22:01
*amarsh04 has quit (Remote closed the connection)Sep 03 22:02
DaemonFCI never really understood why they were giving away free CDs including shipping and thought that they were going to make any moneySep 03 22:03
DaemonFCif Canonical goes under, the freeloaders will just go somewhere elseSep 03 22:03
DaemonFCDebian isn't trying to turn a profit, just get the bills paidSep 03 22:03
MinceR 03 22:03
MinceRetfSep 03 22:03
MinceRwtfSep 03 22:03
DaemonFCthat's a knee slapperSep 03 22:04
DaemonFCI like that line "just as hurricanes fuel the construction industry"Sep 03 22:07
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[_goblin] “Come on in the waters lovely” – Novell RH support? & IE Woes? #linux #windows #microsoft #ie #novellSep 03 22:11
DaemonFC_goblin: I mentioned Novell offering support for RHEL, it's part of their "transition to Suse" offeringSep 03 22:12
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_goblinpoor old Novell....I wonder if they regret signing a deal yet....?Sep 03 22:12
_goblindistrowatch has them dropping in the charts....Sep 03 22:12
DaemonFCOpenSuse isn't a bad distribution, but I can't say I care for NovellSep 03 22:12
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[davidgerard] Graham Chapman's eulogies Perfect!Sep 03 22:13
_goblin10.3 was described as "bloated" and "slow"Sep 03 22:13
DaemonFCyeah, they lost their spot to Linux MintSep 03 22:13
DaemonFC11.1 is pretty goodSep 03 22:13
_goblinmaybe thats what they think will attract Windows users....after all Windows users are no strangers to those "features"Sep 03 22:13
DaemonFCbut yeah, I didn't like any of the 10.x versionsSep 03 22:13
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[davidgerard] @_Goblin it actually says something about #opensource business models that not many buy 3rd party support that tries to poach on 2nd partySep 03 22:14
DaemonFCIt's not really any more bloated than most distrosSep 03 22:14
_goblinperformance wise I would argue that.Sep 03 22:14
DaemonFCthe way they organize the programs menu and Yast makes it feel that way thoughSep 03 22:14
MinceRit may be not bloated, but it's crapSep 03 22:14
_goblinand fps tests Ive conducted on previous versions.Sep 03 22:14
_goblininfact its even slower than Ubuntu....Sep 03 22:15
DaemonFCUbuntu is constantly the top performer in most areasSep 03 22:15
DaemonFCat least according to PhoronixSep 03 22:16
_goblinnope, don't think so...unless its being compared to Redmonds offeringsSep 03 22:16
DaemonFCbut all the leading distributions are closeSep 03 22:16
_goblinWolvix then Gentoo on my machines far outperform any of the "mainstream" distro'sSep 03 22:16
DaemonFCthere's some performance you can wring out of the system with your own kernel, but I doubt it'll ever be more than 2-3%Sep 03 22:17
_goblintrue, but with multiple emulation projects running it makes a hell of a difference (for example)Sep 03 22:18
DaemonFCand it's not worth the maintenance hell that it brings with itSep 03 22:18
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[davidgerard] Where My Money Goes by @addedentry I empathiseSep 03 22:18
_goblinand Wolvix has required very little effort on my part.Sep 03 22:18
DaemonFCthose "compile every package" distros are pure unfiltered pain in the assSep 03 22:18
cubezzz-laptopI'm sure some leaner distros run a bit fasterSep 03 22:18
_goblinthe only extra effort was the installation of nvidia drivers which was not as "autopilot" as Ubuntu.Sep 03 22:19
DaemonFCto try to wring the last percent or two out of the system once you spend hours, days, or weeks compilingSep 03 22:19
neighborleeDaemonFC, on that we can agree for sure I never really saw much gain for the pain lolSep 03 22:19
_goblinno compiling needed DaemonFC...infact Wolvix was up and running quicker than Ubuntu.Sep 03 22:19
DaemonFChmmm, I know there's a few Gentoo-based systems that use binaries in their portage trees in some casesSep 03 22:20
DaemonFCthat just strikes me as even more inconsistentSep 03 22:20
DaemonFC(Sabayon)Sep 03 22:20
_goblincompiling is hardly difficult (in respect of packages)Sep 03 22:20
DaemonFCdepends on the packageSep 03 22:20
_goblingoogle?Sep 03 22:20
DaemonFCFirefox takes at least 15 times longer to compile than a kernelSep 03 22:20
DaemonFCthat's just one thingSep 03 22:20
_goblinyes if you want latest (although packages are available usually)Sep 03 22:21
DaemonFCbinary packages have problems but at least they install today :)Sep 03 22:21
_goblinWolvix I believe at the time shipped with the latest FF.....Sep 03 22:22
MinceRsource-based packages don't always succeed to installSep 03 22:23
DaemonFCthe only reason I'd care about how you make a Linux system from the ground up is if I was making my own distributionSep 03 22:23
DaemonFCand didn't want to use other people's package systemSep 03 22:23
_goblinvery true Mincer although I think you'd be hard pushed not to find a solution which has step by step instructions on Google.Sep 03 22:24
DaemonFCLinux From Scratch is how you do it if you're just morbidly curiousSep 03 22:25
MinceRi prefer the solution that involves using binary packagesSep 03 22:25
DaemonFCbut you won't be done compiling the system for weeksSep 03 22:25
MinceRafter all, the whole point of using a package manager is to make packages install quickly, easily and reliablySep 03 22:25
DaemonFCand resolve dependencies and track orphansSep 03 22:26
DaemonFCthat's not easy to do by yourselfSep 03 22:26
_goblinyes it is....Sep 03 22:26
_goblinit may be long winded (sometimes)Sep 03 22:26
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[popey] Newsnight covering the Alan Turing apology story tonight on BBC2Sep 03 22:27
DaemonFCno human would want to waste their time with thatSep 03 22:27
MinceRwell, i'm not sure if orphan tracking is really solved anywhereSep 03 22:27
_goblinhow long have Windows users pained over issues on their platform....Sep 03 22:27
DaemonFCMinceR: Apt handles them fineSep 03 22:27
MinceRit handles them, but it isn't necessarily what the user wantedSep 03 22:27
MinceRhe might get used to using an app that was brought in as a dependencySep 03 22:27
MinceRor an app installed from source might depend on such a packageSep 03 22:28
MinceRi think it's going to be extremely difficult to implement perfectlySep 03 22:28
DaemonFCMinceR: you can unmark a package as a dependencySep 03 22:28
DaemonFCusing AptitudeSep 03 22:28
DaemonFCyou can also unlink a metapackage from all currently installed packages that depend on itSep 03 22:29
DaemonFCthat's not necessarily a good thing thoughSep 03 22:29
MinceRyeah, ubuntu likes to say they depend on their metapackages for upgradesSep 03 22:30
MinceRyet those metapackages bring in pulseaudio :/Sep 03 22:30
DaemonFCyeah, the new version of the meta might depend on new items that are in the new Ubuntu versionSep 03 22:30
DaemonFC:DSep 03 22:30
DaemonFCwithout that you may very well get a broken or incomplete system if you dist upgradeSep 03 22:31
MinceRwell, anyway, i just leave orphans on the system :)Sep 03 22:31
DaemonFCthey don't harm anything eitherSep 03 22:31
DaemonFCit just warns you about them everytime you uninstall anything using apt-getSep 03 22:31
DaemonFCSynaptic also has a filter that tracks themSep 03 22:31
DaemonFCso you can remove just the ones you know you don't need :)Sep 03 22:32
DaemonFCanyway, I'd rather have something watching for them than not have anything watching while they accumulateSep 03 22:32
MinceRit would be nice if _everything_ installed could be managed by the package managerSep 03 22:34
MinceRi'd start with something like gobolinux :)Sep 03 22:34
DaemonFCI don't think anyone has figured that outSep 03 22:34
MinceRit's horribly difficultSep 03 22:34
DaemonFCApt is the best I've seen and even it has problemsSep 03 22:35
MinceRsupporting other package formats, running ldd on binaries, etc.Sep 03 22:35
DaemonFCwell, rPath Linux has a bizarre package manager, have you seen it?Sep 03 22:35
DaemonFCI tried using Foresight and couldn't wrap my head around itSep 03 22:36
MinceRi've seen it, it's a catastropheSep 03 22:36
DaemonFCended up with a new coasterSep 03 22:36
MinceRit killed itself on the first daySep 03 22:36
MinceRi tried to install KDE, had to remove xdm or something because it conflicted, and on that command it failed, next time i tried to run conary it said the executable was corruptedSep 03 22:36
DaemonFCwell, the funky package format is bad enough, but it would be OK if they had the number of packages other distributions doSep 03 22:37
DaemonFCthey don't thoughSep 03 22:37
MinceRit would be OK if the damn package manager worked instead of mangling itselfSep 03 22:37
MinceRas it is, i'd rather use aptSep 03 22:37
DaemonFCI'm liking Mint pretty well, it's like Suse without the horrible parts like YastSep 03 22:39
DaemonFCI don't know what possessed them to throw in Moonlight thoughSep 03 22:40
DaemonFCI rather suspect that the guy who put Mint together is an ex-Suse user who hated YastSep 03 22:41
MinceRso that's why it's greenSep 03 22:42
DaemonFCit has the same GTK+ theme engine as OpenSuseSep 03 22:42
DaemonFCso all the themes look similarSep 03 22:42
DaemonFCI'm using the blue Peppermint theme thoughSep 03 22:42
DaemonFC:)Sep 03 22:43
DaemonFCI figured out what was missing thoughSep 03 22:49
DaemonFCthe BSOD screensaver :)Sep 03 22:49
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] Microsoft/Waggener Edstrom Vista 7 Laptop Giveaways Still Paying Off 03 22:50
*Diablo-D3 has quit (Read error: 113 (No route to host))Sep 03 22:55
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-BNc/#boycottnovell-[davidgerard] just made it out of alive. jesus. i should know better.Sep 03 23:11
_goblinQuote "I'm liking Mint pretty well, it's like Suse without the horrible parts like Yast" - Why? Because its green?Sep 03 23:13
DaemonFCbetter default setup, better GUI than UbuntuSep 03 23:15
DaemonFCI don't have to mess with itSep 03 23:16
DaemonFCthe first thing a user has to do shouldn't be figure out how to make the theme not look uglySep 03 23:16
MinceRinstalling moonblight is hardly an improvement thoughSep 03 23:18
DaemonFCmeh, nothing uses it, easy to get rid of if you careSep 03 23:19
MinceRhow difficult is it to kill pulseaudio with fire from mint?Sep 03 23:20
DaemonFCuninstall it and set everything to use ALSASep 03 23:20
DaemonFCsame as UbuntuSep 03 23:20
DaemonFCyou probably want to install esound, which is availableSep 03 23:21
MinceRicSep 03 23:21
_goblinDaemonFC: If you find anything challenging about the Ubuntu setup, I'd suggest computing isnt for you.Sep 03 23:22
DaemonFCnot challengingSep 03 23:22
DaemonFCjsut a choreSep 03 23:22
MinceRhow does mint fair robustness-wise?Sep 03 23:22
MinceR(did it have a painful period like ubuntu's intrepid/jaunty?)Sep 03 23:22
DaemonFCthe base system is more or less the version of Ubuntu it came fromSep 03 23:23
DaemonFCMinceR: It doesn't have ApparmorSep 03 23:25
DaemonFCwell, the module is still there cause it comes with the Ubuntu kernel, but the utilities and policies are not installed and nothing loads the module by defaultSep 03 23:26
DaemonFChow to enable the firewall and set rules is more obvious because it has a GUI front end to UFWSep 03 23:26
MinceRi don't think i had any issues with AppArmorSep 03 23:26
DaemonFCthough it's not on by defaultSep 03 23:26
DaemonFCI've always had that complaint with Ubuntu, they don't really take security seriously, even the obvious and trivial parts which no user will even noticeSep 03 23:27
DaemonFCMinceR: Apparmor in Ubuntu only has one default policy enforced, thats for CUPSSep 03 23:29
DaemonFCthey're mainly using it to sandbox the Guest accountSep 03 23:29
DaemonFCthe reason I really don't care for MAC is because if someone has exploited a kernel bug to gain root level access, then you're sunk anywaySep 03 23:31
DaemonFCand the majority of the policies in most distributions won't stop that from happeningSep 03 23:31
DaemonFCI don't think that even the 8 year old kernel bug that was fixed last month would have been mitigatedSep 03 23:32
MinceRthe solution to that isn't necessarily that we throw out even those policies and MACSep 03 23:32
DaemonFCto needlessly complicate the system for dubious security gains which are not possible to gauge or predict is not a good ideaSep 03 23:32
DaemonFCyou could spend hours doing nothing but writing policies and the next kernel bug someone finds will probably torpedo you anywaySep 03 23:33
cubezzz-laptopI'Sep 03 23:33
cubezzz-laptopwell, being rooted must be kind of rareSep 03 23:34
cubezzz-laptopI've never seen itSep 03 23:34
DaemonFClocal root exploits can become remote exploits easily enoughSep 03 23:34
DaemonFCMAC is basically there to guard obvious things that will be attackedSep 03 23:35
DaemonFClike ApacheSep 03 23:35
cubezzz-laptopI've tried using local exploits on my own box, it never got me rootSep 03 23:35
DaemonFCit's like Night of the Living Dead where people are so busy boarding up the windows and doors that they don't even notice there's one in the basementSep 03 23:36
DaemonFC:DSep 03 23:36
MinceRso would you rather fight the one zombie from the basement or that _and_ all the zombies that come in through the windows and doors?Sep 03 23:37
DaemonFCwell, it killed them all anyway in the endSep 03 23:37
MinceRpatching vulnerabilities as they're discovered is not a method that will guarantee your product to be free of vulnerabilitiesSep 03 23:38
MinceRdoesn't mean it isn't worth doingSep 03 23:38
DaemonFCso MAC is like something that they spend millions of dollars and tons of man hours on that would be better spent finding and patching the actual holes where these attacks come fromSep 03 23:38
MinceRMAC is more than that thoughSep 03 23:39
MinceRafaik it has uses on multiuser systemsSep 03 23:39
DaemonFCyeah, well, the Guest account enforcement is one of those deals where it's there to try and stop malicious users using local root exploitsSep 03 23:39
DaemonFCso it's really the same problem from a different angleSep 03 23:40
MinceRMAC isn't about local root exploitsSep 03 23:40
DaemonFCthere have been plenty of security problems in Linux and surrounding software over the years that the only real reason attacks and worms and viruses are not widespread is because the patch is usually faster than the attackers ability to roll out exploits that nab millions of systemsSep 03 23:41
DaemonFCso whenever you hear about Linux being hacked, it's usually one or two isolated incidents, the hole is exposed, the patch is applied, and that's the last you hear of that oneSep 03 23:42
MinceRMAC is about defining an access control policy that the users themselves cannot overrideSep 03 23:42
MinceR(can't just let everyone read sensitive information by setting it go+r)Sep 03 23:43
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-BNc/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] Founding CEO of TurboLinux No Longer at TurboLinux 03 23:45
_Hicham_DaemonFC, the biggest encoderSep 03 23:47
DaemonFCindeedSep 03 23:48
_Hicham_what should i do if the container of a video have a different framerate than the codec framerate ?Sep 03 23:48
DaemonFC_Hicham_: I'm not as current on video encoders as audio encodersSep 03 23:49
DaemonFCin fact, as long as a movie fits on my MP3 player and looks reasonably good on that 2-3" display, I'm usually happySep 03 23:50
_Hicham_I did have that weird issueSep 03 23:50
_Hicham_tried ffmpeg, and gstreamerSep 03 23:50
DaemonFCcould be calculation differences in two programsSep 03 23:50
DaemonFCmaybe one program counts the overhead of the containerSep 03 23:50
_Hicham_both gave me the same resultSep 03 23:51
_Hicham_it plays fine in flvSep 03 23:51
_Hicham_but when i want to transcode it, i get only the halfSep 03 23:51
DaemonFCthe Ogg container typically has an overhead of about 15%Sep 03 23:51
DaemonFCover the Vorbis stream it's encapsulatingSep 03 23:51
_Hicham_i am transcoding it from flv to mpeg-2 ( DVD)Sep 03 23:52
DaemonFCyou probably don't want to do thatSep 03 23:52
DaemonFCit's probably MPEG 4 video insideSep 03 23:52
DaemonFCjust find something to strip it of the FLV container and put it in an MPEG containerSep 03 23:52
_Hicham_ok, thanks for the ideaSep 03 23:53
DaemonFCI've done that before, it saves you from degrading the quality of the videoSep 03 23:53
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[_goblin] Windows 7 – Its party time! (just don’t mention Vista) or "Its my party and I’ll shill if I want to." #microsoftSep 03 23:56

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