IRC: #boycottnovell @ FreeNode: September 4th, 2009

DaemonFCa Windows 7 partySep 04 00:04
DaemonFCare you serious?Sep 04 00:04
DaemonFClmaoSep 04 00:05
DaemonFCMicrosoft's "party" site has a twitter stream currently populated by comments from "Windows7Sucks"Sep 04 00:06
_goblinyep....Windows party, with a chance to win free gifts....IMO the only time Microsoft gets people celebrating their products.Sep 04 00:07
DaemonFC_goblin: Sounds like one of those "free vacations" where you have to attend seminars every day about buying into a time shareSep 04 00:09
_goblinmore dangerous IMO...this is getting you to pimp 7 to your friends and family in the hope of getting a free copy of ultimate....Sep 04 00:11
DaemonFC_goblin: you mean they can't even guarantee you the 30 pieces of silver?Sep 04 00:12
DaemonFCthat's lowSep 04 00:12
DaemonFCheheSep 04 00:12
_Hicham_yes, let us support MSSep 04 00:13
_Hicham_since they do great softwareSep 04 00:14
_Hicham_Silverlight is spreadingSep 04 00:14
DaemonFCIE 8 is the best browser everSep 04 00:14
DaemonFCit even supports jumplistsSep 04 00:14
DaemonFCwhat's that? Ad blocking? Who needs that?Sep 04 00:14
DaemonFC:DSep 04 00:14
DaemonFCJust get Silverlight so even more untrusted third parties can execute program code in your browserSep 04 00:15
DaemonFCit's super deliciousSep 04 00:15
DaemonFCsee, you just use ClickOnce to install software straight from the web with .Net (or maybe a script that broke out of the sandbox clicks for you)Sep 04 00:16
_Hicham_greatSep 04 00:17
_Hicham_that is what we needSep 04 00:17
_Hicham_ 04 00:17
_Hicham_Linux listed on MS websiteSep 04 00:18
DaemonFCIf you're running Linux, click here to get a plugin from Novell that nothing works withSep 04 00:19
DaemonFCjesusSep 04 00:19
schestowitz_Hicham_: oh, come on...Sep 04 00:19
DaemonFCoh that was funnySep 04 00:20
DaemonFCI have Compiz set to "explode" all the windows I closeSep 04 00:21
DaemonFCso I clicked on Microsoft's Silverlight showcase and Firefox explodedSep 04 00:21
DaemonFCarghSep 04 00:21
schestowitzVista 7 - "I'll cry if I want to"Sep 04 00:21
DaemonFCwell, at least they gave me a laughSep 04 00:21
_Hicham_ 04 00:22
schestowitzSign along, chaps: "Vis-Duh Seven and I'll cry if I want to"Sep 04 00:22
_Hicham_DaemonFC using LinuxSep 04 00:22
schestowitzI'm using Vista 7 RTMSep 04 00:22
_Hicham_schestowitz : how is it ?Sep 04 00:23
_Hicham_does it perform well ?Sep 04 00:23
schestowitzAnd this creature < > just flew past my windowSep 04 00:23
*Received a CTCP VERSION from DaemonFCSep 04 00:23
DaemonFCnyetSep 04 00:23
DaemonFCwhatever schestowitz is using, it's oldSep 04 00:23
_Hicham_DaemonFC : what linux distro are u using, slackware ?Sep 04 00:24
schestowitzNot as old as gates Snr.Sep 04 00:24
schestowitzThat dinosaur spends extra time corrupting politiciansSep 04 00:24
DaemonFCsomething from early 2007Sep 04 00:24
schestowitzWonder what he's doing for little billy boy these days...Sep 04 00:24
DaemonFCso probably Mandriva 2007 SpringSep 04 00:24
schestowitz2008.1Sep 04 00:25
DaemonFCahhhSep 04 00:25
DaemonFCerrr, that's what I meantSep 04 00:25
DaemonFCbrain fart....forget that Mandriva does the whole "next year" thing in the fallSep 04 00:25
DaemonFC*forgotSep 04 00:25
DaemonFCUbuntu was what originally got me off of XP for almost three solid yearsSep 04 00:26
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schestowitz 04 00:26
schestowitz 04 00:26
DaemonFCbut it seems like every release since 8.04 has been more bugs for me to fix myselfSep 04 00:26
_Hicham_and now you left ubuntu for good ?Sep 04 00:26
DaemonFC_Hicham_: Mint is basically UbuntuSep 04 00:27
DaemonFCit departs from their obvious bad choicesSep 04 00:27
DaemonFCat least superficiallySep 04 00:27
_Hicham_what is the difference ?Sep 04 00:27
_Hicham_the theming ?Sep 04 00:27
DaemonFCthat's most of itSep 04 00:27
DaemonFCdifferent administration tools, different layout, all your media codecs are thereSep 04 00:28
schestowitz 04 00:28
schestowitzGoogle polices linksSep 04 00:28
DaemonFCthere's obvious ways to do things that have no GUI in UbuntuSep 04 00:28
schestowitz"Sep 04 00:28
schestowitz    - External links from commentsSep 04 00:28
schestowitz    - External links from user profilesSep 04 00:28
schestowitz    - External links from story pages "below a certain threshold of popularity""Sep 04 00:28
DaemonFClike use ndiswrapper if you need toSep 04 00:28
_Hicham_who developed those GUIs?Sep 04 00:29
DaemonFCwell, as I've said before, it's very similar to OpenSuseSep 04 00:29
DaemonFCbut underneath it all, it's Ubuntu with tweaks and codecsSep 04 00:30
DaemonFCit's really meant to be more convenient for the user to install I supposeSep 04 00:30
_Hicham_is it as stable as ubuntu?Sep 04 00:30
DaemonFCif you have an Ubuntu disc and no internet connection, you can't even watch a DVDSep 04 00:30
DaemonFCor listen to an MP3Sep 04 00:30
_Hicham_is it legal ?Sep 04 00:31
DaemonFCit should be at least as stable as Ubuntu considering it uses the same packages from the same repoSep 04 00:31
DaemonFC_Hicham_: Technically, it would not be legal to redistribute the main setup disc because of patent lawsSep 04 00:31
schestowitz 04 00:31
schestowitz"Microsoft confirmed this morning that it plans to stop manufacturing its existing lineup of Zune music players -- including the sub-$100 4GB and 8GB models -- as it rolls out the new Zune HD. "Sep 04 00:31
DaemonFCthey do have a disc without the codecs so that you can legally redistribute themSep 04 00:32
DaemonFCit's called the "Linux Mint Universal Edition"Sep 04 00:32
DaemonFCbut I'm not some big magazine distributor who can easily be suedSep 04 00:32
DaemonFCso I don't careSep 04 00:32
_Hicham_do u think that it is worth it? can't the gui tools be installed on ubuntu?Sep 04 00:32
DaemonFCit's at least as legal as Ubuntu after I've installed the codec packagesSep 04 00:32
DaemonFCthey couldSep 04 00:33
DaemonFCand so can the SLAB menuSep 04 00:33
DaemonFCand so can the theming engineSep 04 00:33
_Hicham_what is the difference then ?Sep 04 00:33
_Hicham_some delayed security patches ?Sep 04 00:33
DaemonFCnone really, except that it's been done for youSep 04 00:33
DaemonFCnoSep 04 00:33
DaemonFCthe security patches are there as soon as they land in UbuntuSep 04 00:34
_Hicham_are they using the same repos ?Sep 04 00:34
DaemonFCit uses the Ubuntu repositories for the systemSep 04 00:34
DaemonFCyesSep 04 00:34
_Hicham_weird ideaSep 04 00:34
DaemonFCUbuntu is the cake, they're the icingSep 04 00:34
DaemonFCI guess is how I'd put Linux MintSep 04 00:34
ThistleWebmint is a more polished ubuntu, but it's still essensially ubuntuSep 04 00:35
DaemonFCyesSep 04 00:35
DaemonFCit's more convenientSep 04 00:36
ThistleWeball the tutorials, debs, ppas etc for ubuntu all work fine in mintSep 04 00:36
DaemonFCI suppose you could probably convert it to an Ubuntu system just by removing the Mint repos, and purging all the packages from themSep 04 00:37
DaemonFCif anything ever happened to Mint and you didn't want to reformat, that isSep 04 00:37
_Hicham_I have used Ubuntu for more than two yearsSep 04 00:37
DaemonFCtheir developers are fairly snarky and condescendingSep 04 00:38
DaemonFCthat's the main problem I see with themSep 04 00:38
ThistleWebmint has a few handy features pre-installed like samba shares, mint uploadSep 04 00:38
DaemonFCthey don't even listen to opposing points of view, they just banSep 04 00:38
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[davidgerard] #wikipedia the WMF blog needs a post on @jansonw our image restorers are largely unsung heroesSep 04 00:39
DaemonFCUbuntu, that isSep 04 00:39
ThistleWebthe mint update has a rating on how important an update itSep 04 00:39
ThistleWebis*Sep 04 00:39
DaemonFCno, that's a rating on how dangerous it isSep 04 00:39
ThistleWebwith a filter, allowing you to only see mint approved, security updates etcSep 04 00:39
DaemonFCyeahSep 04 00:39
ThistleWebyes sorrySep 04 00:39
DaemonFC1 poses no risk to the systemSep 04 00:40
DaemonFC5 means they've found problemsSep 04 00:40
ThistleWebyep, default is 1-3Sep 04 00:40
DaemonFCby default it only shows updates rated 1-3Sep 04 00:40
ThistleWebbut you can see 4 & 5Sep 04 00:40
DaemonFCyeahSep 04 00:40
DaemonFCyou can unhide the 4's and 5'sSep 04 00:40
ThistleWebif you want toSep 04 00:40
_Hicham_Ubuntu devs are Debian outlawsSep 04 00:40
ThistleWebI had to think about the slab menu, but I use the xfce mint, which dont have the slab menuSep 04 00:40
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ThistleWebI have used it before though, it's not too badSep 04 00:41
DaemonFCwell, Debian is pretty rigid and the release system is unpredictableSep 04 00:41
DaemonFCso those are valid concerns, but I don't think Ubuntu is an ideal answer to thatSep 04 00:41
DaemonFCfor every problem it fixes in Debian, it adds more of their ownSep 04 00:41
_Hicham_of course, with every fix, there is another problemSep 04 00:42
DaemonFCwhat's the XFCE one like?Sep 04 00:42
DaemonFCI may be able to use that on my laptopSep 04 00:42
ThistleWebone of the best xfce distros I've usedSep 04 00:42
DaemonFCGNOME is way too slow on the laptopSep 04 00:42
ThistleWebit's not as light as others, but it's very slickSep 04 00:42
ThistleWebit's amillion times better than xubuntuSep 04 00:42
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] Microsoft Has the World’s Biggest Patent Troll, But What’s Up with Google? 04 00:43
ThistleWebcurrently it's a release behindSep 04 00:43
DaemonFCI prefer GNOME if I can get away with itSep 04 00:43
ThistleWebit's mint xfce ce 6Sep 04 00:43
ThistleWebthe rest are at mint 7Sep 04 00:43
DaemonFCbut it's way too heavy to put on older systems (Say, pre-2004)Sep 04 00:43
_Hicham_XFCE is too simplisticSep 04 00:43
DaemonFCyeah, I hated XubuntuSep 04 00:43
_Hicham_and doesn't have the features than GNOME provideSep 04 00:43
_Hicham_sure it is based on GTK+Sep 04 00:43
ThistleWebxfce is deceptiveSep 04 00:44
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_Hicham_but what is the point is starting another GNOME from scratchSep 04 00:44
_Hicham_?Sep 04 00:44
ThistleWebit appears simple on the surfaceSep 04 00:44
Balrog__Hicham_: LXDE based Ubuntu is outSep 04 00:44
ThistleWebit's much better than many assumeSep 04 00:44
_Hicham_I used LXDE tooSep 04 00:44
ThistleWebxubuntu is terribleSep 04 00:44
ThistleWebmint xfce and wolvix are the best 2 xfce distros I've seenSep 04 00:45
schestowitzxfce or xubuntu?Sep 04 00:45
DaemonFCXubuntu is badSep 04 00:45
_Hicham_even with XFCE, you will need GNOME librariesSep 04 00:45
DaemonFCthey've tried to clone their GNOME layout with itSep 04 00:45
_Hicham_because applications request itSep 04 00:45
DaemonFCit looks like a third world GNOME, not like XFCESep 04 00:45
schestowitzzenwalk should be good for xfceSep 04 00:45
ThistleWebI never take note of the default theme, icons, wallpaper, layout etc as I chance them to my tastes anywaySep 04 00:46
_Hicham_gconf-backend, gnome-keyring-daemon, and so onSep 04 00:46
schestowitzberanger has a popular table on which to choose for xfceSep 04 00:46
DaemonFCbblSep 04 00:46
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ThistleWebmint 6 was the first distro I've liked the default icon setSep 04 00:47
ThistleWebI usually change them, along with the rest of the theme and layoutSep 04 00:47
_Hicham_maybe there were influenced by openSUSE themeSep 04 00:48
ThistleWebdunnoSep 04 00:48
schestowitzbribing for people to hype up Vista 7:Sep 04 00:48
schestowitzMicrosoft calling on thousands to host their own Windows 7 partiesSep 04 00:48
schestowitz 04 00:48
schestowitzAstroTurfSep 04 00:48
cubezzz-laptopwtf, lolSep 04 00:48
schestowitz"here. Have some money. Make a buzz"Sep 04 00:49
_Hicham_schestowitz : are you invited to those parties ?Sep 04 00:49
ThistleWebwith the mint CE's they at least feel like proper distros, not afterthoughts like xubuntu and kubuntuSep 04 00:49
schestowitz_Hicham_: yesSep 04 00:49
schestowitzThese parties are goodSep 04 00:49
schestowitzFor me to p00p on.Sep 04 00:49
ThistleWebthey're built by peeps who love those DE'sSep 04 00:49
schestowitz[reference: insult dog]Sep 04 00:49
_Hicham_schestowitz : do u have an extra invitation for me ?Sep 04 00:49
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schestowitz_Hicham_: sureSep 04 00:50
schestowitzThey'll give you trouble in airport security, thoughSep 04 00:50
_Hicham_of course, btw I don't like airports these daysSep 04 00:50
schestowitzYou must kiss a picture of George and Tony to have them pass you through gatesSep 04 00:51
schestowitz:-pSep 04 00:51
ThistleWebgeorge galloway?Sep 04 00:51
ThistleWeblolSep 04 00:51
schestowitzNo, BushSep 04 00:51
_Hicham_gates to hellSep 04 00:51
schestowitzKilling galloway? Gross.Sep 04 00:51
ThistleWebyeah he's a mixed bagSep 04 00:52
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ThistleWebsometimes he's brilliant, others he's an embarrassment, depending on what he's doingSep 04 00:52
ThistleWebnot unlike RMSSep 04 00:53
_Hicham_schestowitz : there is a new alternative to gnome-doSep 04 00:53
schestowitzThistleWeb: check out MSBBC fluff: 04 00:53
schestowitz_Hicham_: gnome-undo?Sep 04 00:53
schestowitzThistleWeb: they need space-fillersSep 04 00:54
_Hicham_schestowitz : it is called kupferSep 04 00:54
schestowitzNo pun intended BTWSep 04 00:54
_Hicham_ 04 00:54
schestowitz 04 00:54
ThistleWebyeah I saw that headline earlier but didnt bother clicking on itSep 04 00:54
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ThistleWebkinda smelt like a filler storySep 04 00:55
_Hicham_do u speak german schestowitz ?Sep 04 00:55
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_Hicham_CopperSep 04 00:56
_Hicham_that is itSep 04 00:56
_Hicham_stange nameSep 04 00:56
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] @davidgerard: it's the content that counts. TBH, the later eps get boring. The earlier, the better.Sep 04 00:57
ChipsHi all.  Have you seen this one:  Microsoft Says Recovery from Malware Becoming Impossible 04 00:57
ChipsQuote from the link:  "In a rare discussion about the severity of the Windows malware scourge, a Microsoft security official said businesses should consider investing in an automated process to wipe hard drives and reinstall operating systems as a practical way to recover from malware infestation."Sep 04 00:58
cubezzzpfffftSep 04 00:58
ChipsI have run into a lot of windows users bringing me hard drives that only work after running DBAN on themSep 04 00:59
Chipsmore and more latelySep 04 00:59
_Hicham_Windows Malware is so hard to cleanSep 04 01:00
_Hicham_it is just impossible to clean sometimesSep 04 01:00
_Hicham_because it affects the whole systemSep 04 01:00
ChipsHicham, yes, its getting far worse tooSep 04 01:00
_Hicham_I have had a lot of Windows viruses that I have failed to wipe outSep 04 01:00
Chipsbut most likely stealth viruses the affect the partition tables and MBR more and moreSep 04 01:01
_Hicham_simply because they are everywhereSep 04 01:01
_Hicham_the more dangerous ones are rootkitsSep 04 01:01
Chipsthey all are dangerousSep 04 01:01
_Hicham_which routes Win API callsSep 04 01:01
cubezzzthat's interesting, I didn't think it was that badSep 04 01:01
Chipsbut some seem to even fool the biosSep 04 01:01
cubezzzcould windows be even crappier than I thought? :)Sep 04 01:01
_Hicham_so it is impossible to find themSep 04 01:02
_Hicham_because they are part of ntoskrn.exeSep 04 01:02
ChipsI have had to find them in linux machines by sometimes putting them in a usb enclosureSep 04 01:02
schestowitz "Everyone expected the server market to collapse in the second quarter, but the decline is a little worse than anticipated - at least in some segments and geographies."Sep 04 01:02
_Hicham_usb viruses are sweetSep 04 01:02
_Hicham_as i said rootkits are the worst form of themSep 04 01:03
ChipsI had 3 hd's bought to me last month with these problemsSep 04 01:03
_Hicham_beside some late polymorphic viruresSep 04 01:03
_Hicham_like ConfickerSep 04 01:03
_Hicham_I have heard that schestowitz to Conficker's codeSep 04 01:03
_Hicham_*contributedSep 04 01:04
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ChipsWell, when you get a MS guy saying you need to wipe the drive things are very bad in windowslandSep 04 01:04
_Hicham_of course they are ChipsSep 04 01:05
_Hicham_they are since a long time agoSep 04 01:05
_Hicham_did you think that Windows could be secured ?Sep 04 01:05
ChipsWas hoping Roy could use that, if he has already not.  Here is another one.  Microsoft Releases Windows Malware StatsSep 04 01:06
Balrog__Hicham_: yes. You run it in a VM and filter all packets.Sep 04 01:06
Chips 04 01:06
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_Hicham_I was using Kaspersky 2009 with least privilegies in WindowsSep 04 01:06
_Hicham_but even with that, there was no securitySep 04 01:06
_Hicham_hi oiaohmSep 04 01:07
ChipsQuote from the link:  "The statistics also show how computer worms never really go away. For example, the "Blaster worm," which first surfaced in August 2003, is still the 10th-most-removed piece of malware, according to Microsoft. Indeed, Redmond found that in about 20 percent of cases where it removed malware in March 2006, the intruder was something the removal tool had previously nixed."Sep 04 01:07
ChipsI believe the Blaster Worm, not Vista, was the main cause of users starting to look for something better.Sep 04 01:09
ChipsBut Vista helped.Sep 04 01:09
_Hicham_how Vista helped ?Sep 04 01:10
ChipsIt was the blaster worm, and the outrage by the press and gov, that caused MS to work on SP2 for XP to the point of virtually stopping LonghornSep 04 01:10
ChipsHicham, Vista may have helped, by discouraging many windows users so bad they looked for alternativesSep 04 01:11
_Hicham_but Vista is not secure at allSep 04 01:12
ChipsI credit the Blaster Worm for the reason that MS let XP go for so longSep 04 01:12
ChipsHicham> that is the pointSep 04 01:12
ChipsVista is not secureSep 04 01:12
_Hicham_MS let XP go for so long because Vista couldn't be a replacementSep 04 01:13
_Hicham_all users are requesting XPSep 04 01:13
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ChipsNo, because they needed to rush out sp2 for xp and stop longhorn to do so.  The bad press at the time from the blaster worm was impressive.  Even the gov was talking about forcing MS to do something about securitySep 04 01:14
Chipsit turned out to be all talkSep 04 01:15
ChipsEveryone I knew at the time, got hit with the blaster wormSep 04 01:15
_Hicham_great for MS usersSep 04 01:16
ChipsMS can never get rid of the Blaster Worm or the damage it did to its dimishing reputationSep 04 01:18
_Hicham_because they have no security at allSep 04 01:19
_Hicham_just started using least privilegied user concept on VistaSep 04 01:19
ChipsHere is a link for DaemonFC, the big boxmart troll, lol: 04 01:19
ChipsHicham, so you create a "normal" (limited) user account in Vista?Sep 04 01:20
schestowitz 04 01:20
schestowitzCompetition Commissioner 'Steelie' Neelie Kroes said:Sep 04 01:20
schestowitz    The Commission has to examine very carefully the effects on competition in Europe when the world's leading proprietary database company proposes to take over the world's leading open source database company. In particular, the Commission has an obligation to ensure that customers would not face reduced choice or higher prices as a result of this takeover. Databases are a key element of company IT systems.Sep 04 01:20
schestowitz    In the current economic context, all companies are looking for cost-effective IT solutions, and systems based on open-source software are increasingly emerging as viable alternatives to proprietary solutions. The Commission has to ensure that such alternatives would continue to be available.Sep 04 01:20
Chipsit does help some to do this, sadly it will never be as secure as LinuxSep 04 01:21
ChipsHi Roy, did you see the first link?Sep 04 01:21
_Hicham_Linux is having a new security framework, tomoyoSep 04 01:21
oiaohmGod reading Linux haters blog entries comments are a great laugh at times.Sep 04 01:23
oiaohmSome stupid idiot said FOSS had a zero dollar R&D spending.Sep 04 01:23
_Hicham_hahaSep 04 01:24
_Hicham_greatSep 04 01:24
oiaohmThe true fact the Most R&D spending is on FOSS by a large margin.Sep 04 01:25
oiaohmJust very little of that goes into desktop stuff.Sep 04 01:25
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schestowitzChips: from 2006?Sep 04 01:28
oiaohm  Ok are people nuts today.Sep 04 01:28
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] Rob Tiller Explains Why Software Patents Are a Tax on Innovation (Video) 04 01:29
oiaohmWindows 7 killer feature power management?Sep 04 01:29
oiaohmHow did the auther come to that.Sep 04 01:29
oiaohmO well 2.6.32 Linux kernel could see them crying.   The same power mangement tech will appear in Linux from intel.Sep 04 01:30
_Hicham_from intel ?Sep 04 01:30
ChipsYes, Roy, its from 2006, old but still relavent.  any time you can get someone that works for MS to admit thatSep 04 01:31
_Hicham_intel will put in kernel 2.6.32 ?Sep 04 01:31
_Hicham_greatSep 04 01:31
_Hicham_they started by participating to gccSep 04 01:31
Chipscan't be fixed, must be wiped and reinstalledSep 04 01:31
oiaohmTo be correct amd and intel will both put it in 2.6.32Sep 04 01:31
oiaohmSo leaving windows 7 laging on amd chips.Sep 04 01:32
Balrog_looks like Mac OS ... and the BSDs ... are moving away from GCC and toward LLVM+ClangSep 04 01:32
oiaohmBSD have always wanted to unhook from the GPL licence Balrog_Sep 04 01:32
Balrog_I know. Clang has some pretty nice features thoughSep 04 01:32
oiaohmllvm move is kinda expected.Sep 04 01:32
_Hicham_but GPL and BSD are compatibleSep 04 01:32
oiaohmReally it will be nice having two compliers.Sep 04 01:33
oiaohm_Hicham_:  only 1 way compatible.Sep 04 01:33
oiaohmGPL can wrap BSD code.Sep 04 01:33
oiaohmBSD cannot wrap GPL.Sep 04 01:33
oiaohmBSD guys don't particularly like that.  Remember the complains when Linux kernel took BSD sections of code and altered them.Sep 04 01:34
oiaohmSince the alterations were under GPL BSD kernel could not take it back.Sep 04 01:34
Chipsneither could they take backSep 04 01:34
Chipsapple altered codeSep 04 01:35
Chipsat least some of itSep 04 01:35
oiaohmIts the BSD weakness.Sep 04 01:35
Balrog_some people call it a strength ..............Sep 04 01:35
oiaohmNot only do closed source take there code and use it.  Open source does as well.Sep 04 01:35
oiaohmThe effect is less developers working on BSD.Sep 04 01:36
oiaohmBut working under other licences.Sep 04 01:36
oiaohmRemember numbers of developers is key to progress.Sep 04 01:36
oiaohmRemember BSD had over a 10 year head start on Linux.Sep 04 01:37
oiaohmGPL is the secrect to Linux speed of development.Sep 04 01:37
ChipsROY> if you can use that link, maybe a good way to use it, is to start by writing:  "Even way back in 2006 a MS employee admitted that"Sep 04 01:38
oiaohm  << Great Gnome developers are going nuts.Sep 04 01:38
oiaohmWhat is going to happen if users rename stuff.Sep 04 01:39
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oiaohmOr worse 2 applications with the same name.Sep 04 01:42
_Hicham_2 applications with the same name ?Sep 04 01:43
oiaohmIt happens quite a few times.  Like the video game chromuim BSU and googles web browser chromuimSep 04 01:44
oiaohmYep getting the wrong one there is going to piss you off.Sep 04 01:45
_Hicham_those issues should be resolvedSep 04 01:45
_Hicham_two applications cannot have the same nameSep 04 01:46
oiaohmThey can and they do.Sep 04 01:46
_Hicham_a simple patch will do itSep 04 01:46
oiaohmOr person has 2 versions of a application installed.Sep 04 01:46
oiaohmThere is a really simple way to prevent this by the way.Sep 04 01:46
oiaohmSo simple and the gnome developers over looked it.Sep 04 01:46
oiaohmThe process table contains the command used to run the application.Sep 04 01:47
oiaohmSince two different applications should have two different locations no problems.Sep 04 01:47
oiaohmEven on windows there is the same look up.Sep 04 01:48
_Hicham_how do u know ?Sep 04 01:48
_Hicham_Windows is closed source ?Sep 04 01:48
oiaohmBecause the process table lookups are documented in the MSDN.Sep 04 01:48
oiaohmFor developers to use _Hicham_Sep 04 01:49
oiaohmDifferent format but same result can be got.Sep 04 01:49
Chipsits would show in windows task manager as wellSep 04 01:49
oiaohmWindows task manager is just a front end for the windows process table.Sep 04 01:50
ChipsyesSep 04 01:50
oiaohmThere is the simple way and there is the hard way.Sep 04 01:50
oiaohmSimple way use process table to tell you when you are doing duplicant.Sep 04 01:50
oiaohmHard way is what gnome is doing.Sep 04 01:50
oiaohmNote gnome made no requirement to tag version.Sep 04 01:51
ChipsOiaohm>  sorry I wasn't really following, is Gnome trying to make a "task manager" lilke in windows?Sep 04 01:52
oiaohmRead the Application Based alterations to detect when application is run twice I just provided  ChipsSep 04 01:53
oiaohmThey are doing it for Gnome 3.0Sep 04 01:53
oiaohmThey have gone nuts.  .desktop file and application have to be in sync.Sep 04 01:53
oiaohmNo room left for duplication.Sep 04 01:53
Chipswill just stay with KDE thanksSep 04 01:55
oiaohmWorse is they are connecting everything basically to dbus.Sep 04 01:55
oiaohmSo nice new set of crunch.Sep 04 01:56
Chipstell me they are going add more monoSep 04 01:56
oiaohmNote everything to dbus under those names that could be duplicatent.Sep 04 01:56
oiaohmBoy it could have been done so much simpler.Sep 04 01:57
oiaohmMake one interface that can talk to application by process number.Sep 04 01:58
oiaohmAdd a filter to check process table.Sep 04 01:58
Chipsyour logic does sound correctSep 04 01:58
oiaohmThe thing is basically simpler and cleaner.Sep 04 01:58
Chipsthis should not affect KDE?Sep 04 02:05
Chipseach process in the table does already have an PIDSep 04 02:08
Chipsps -e -fSep 04 02:08
*neighborlee has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out))Sep 04 02:09
Chipsfrom there the kill or killall commands or crtl-alt=esc   crtl-alt-bcksp can be usedSep 04 02:10
oiaohmAnd PID numbers are unique.Sep 04 02:12
oiaohmWhile the program is running.Sep 04 02:13
Chipsyes, I agree totally with youSep 04 02:13
Chipswhat I thought this was about, at first, was there is always some former windows users trying to get aSep 04 02:14
Chips"task manager" gui made for linuxSep 04 02:14
oiaohmI want KMS before I do that.Sep 04 02:16
oiaohmSo like cntrl alt something brings up a task manager to allow killing applications protected by cgroups from being cut off from cpu time.Sep 04 02:17
Chipstask manager is somewhat of a problem even in windows, as when things sort of lock up, resources can be mostly used up and bringing up an gui takes more and is sometimes very very slowSep 04 02:17
oiaohmWould work so nice.Sep 04 02:17
oiaohmBasically it would only be small too.  I was looking a ncursesSep 04 02:18
ChipsYes, but a task manager gui style for Linux, would be only somewhat useful, to those converting overSep 04 02:18
Chipsfrom windowsSep 04 02:18
oiaohmGui could be done as well my way.Sep 04 02:19
oiaohmAdvantage is that it would work.Sep 04 02:19
Chipsguess it would make it easier for some newbiesSep 04 02:19
oiaohmCompared to windows one at times.Sep 04 02:19
oiaohmOk would work quickly.Sep 04 02:19
ChipsI have had to do a lot of explaining on how to shut down, or get out when something goes wrong, it doesn't happen often thankfullySep 04 02:20
Chipsnew users adkSep 04 02:20
twitterglad you found that.  I think I sent a link earlier about this.  -> schestowitz: Competition Commissioner 'Steelie' Neelie Kroes saidSep 04 02:20
twitterfunny how the trolls were in here just the other day saying, "no one uses mySQL" as if LAMP were some kind of rare animal.Sep 04 02:21
ChipsOiaohm, I like your ncurses idea for a task manager for newbiesSep 04 02:23
Chipslow resourceSep 04 02:23
oiaohmPointless doing it until KMS works.Sep 04 02:23
oiaohmX11 has the nasty habit of taken out means to switch to terminal.Sep 04 02:24
Chipswhat I see is that real time is needed for future virus scanning shields, KMS, maybe this will all be done before the advent of Google ChromeOS.  Google and Linux will then start the real war on the desktopSep 04 02:25
oiaohmReal time scanning is under way.Sep 04 02:27
twitterThis happens at every "upgrade" and so does the reporting, but windows infection has pretty much been 100% for as long as people have tried to exchange information via floppies or networks -> Chips: Everyone I knew at the time, got hit with the blaster wormSep 04 02:27
oiaohmmerge of filesystem monitoring has happened in 04 02:28
oiaohmopps 2.6.31Sep 04 02:28
oiaohmNow the addon for virus scanning and blocking is all that is missing in that.Sep 04 02:28
oiaohmRealtime network virus scanning is fairly simple to do on Linux.Sep 04 02:28
oiaohmNext 12 months should close all the major tech bits need up.Sep 04 02:29
Chipsblaster worm woke most users up the to fact that Windows could be taken down at any timeSep 04 02:30
twitterYes, it is that bad.  Ask them how to install Windows 7, ha ha.  Chips: Well, when you get a MS guy saying you need to wipe the drive things are very bad in windowslandSep 04 02:30
oiaohmWindows 7 is the last OS MS gets to put out without Linux as a major threat.Sep 04 02:30
ChipsOiaohm> its the virus shield (resident) that is necessary.  Long term.  ClamAV most likely does not support that because of real time.Sep 04 02:31
twitterWindows users have come to expect wipe and reload.  They think "the computer is complex and fragile"Sep 04 02:31
oiaohmClamav has had support for realtime on Linux ChipsSep 04 02:32
ChipsWindows is fragileSep 04 02:32
twitterreload is such a pain for them.  dozens of drivers and dozens of programs to make the thing do anything useful, each of which require half a dozen tweaks.Sep 04 02:32
oiaohmIn a non merged patch due to the fact it too much of a hack.Sep 04 02:32
oiaohmI expect clamav to be realtime able on Linux very quickly after realtime scanning is added.Sep 04 02:33
twitterreload is basically like stepping a few years back in time and they never get it all back.Sep 04 02:33
Chipslast I tried Clamav, even in XP, it did not have a resident viral shield, not memory resident.  ONly scanns and updatesSep 04 02:33
twitterChips misspelled crap.  Windows is crap.Sep 04 02:33
oiaohmI wish someone would do a compare of XP to windows 7 upgrade with a XP to ubuntu with migration wizard.Sep 04 02:34
oiaohmI suspect Ubuntu is less painful.Sep 04 02:34
oiaohmWindows also only supports 1 resident shield at a time.Sep 04 02:35
oiaohmThere are resident shields around for clamav on windows.Sep 04 02:35
ChipsI am not a big fan of Ubuntu, or mono in itSep 04 02:35
oiaohmI am not a big fan either.Sep 04 02:36
Chipsbut I going say something good about Ubuntu hereSep 04 02:36
oiaohmBut if it gets users coming accross the divide I will live with it.Sep 04 02:36
ChipsLocal Linux computer fixer here that I talk to, told me thisSep 04 02:37
Chipson ebay he seen some computers with xp on it.  And then some with Ubuntu on it, same computer.  The Ubuntu ones sold for $15 more, usedSep 04 02:37
Chipsother distros he said did not sellSep 04 02:38
Chipsname reconizion perhaps, if I could spellSep 04 02:38
oiaohmNot really.Sep 04 02:38
oiaohmWho wants to have to clean a computer out of crap before they use it.Sep 04 02:38
Chipsmy point is, newbies know the Ubuntu nameSep 04 02:39
Chipsif they are disgusted with Windows, maybe its a way of selling old computersSep 04 02:40
Chipsbut I would have to look some on ebay, maybe he is wrongSep 04 02:40
oiaohmHe is not wrong.Sep 04 02:40
cubezzzsure, why not put Linux on, XP is bloatedSep 04 02:41
oiaohmNote linux sold that way don't show up since the machines are not new.Sep 04 02:41
oiaohmIts also that a few people have been caught on ebay buying a computer with a pirated copy of XP installed.Sep 04 02:42
Chipstwitter> spelling is not one of my strong points.  Grammar is even lower on the scale.  But I spell crap as krap mostly, in order not to be banned on sites I comment on.Sep 04 02:42
oiaohmIe you can trust Ubuntu to work after you get it.Sep 04 02:42
Chipsmost linux does basically workSep 04 02:43
oiaohmIts the sign of the changing market.Sep 04 02:43
Chipsand I try hard not to start bashing the other guys free workSep 04 02:44
Chipsbut, as you know, I cannot do that for longSep 04 02:44
ChipslolSep 04 02:44
_Hicham_Linux is slowly conquering the desktop marketSep 04 02:47
*sebsebseb (n=sebastia@unaffiliated/sebsebseb) has joined #boycottnovellSep 04 02:47
sebsebsebschestowitz: you about?Sep 04 02:47
_Hicham_after conquering the desktop market, nothing will be left for MicrosoftSep 04 02:47
_Hicham_is more merges occur in Linux distribution, MS will feel really threatenedSep 04 02:48
_Hicham_but Linux is after all : LinuxSep 04 02:48
oiaohmMost of Linux does not care about the desktop.Sep 04 02:48
oiaohmThe jobs are in the server room.Sep 04 02:48
oiaohmJust having the desktop gives you the server room.Sep 04 02:49
_Hicham_GNU/Linux is : kernel + glibc + XSep 04 02:49
_Hicham_and all distros use the same componentsSep 04 02:49
oiaohmX is only still around because video cards don't release drivers for anything else.Sep 04 02:49
*bruce89 (n=bruce89@ has joined #boycottnovellSep 04 02:50
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stefan_hello?Sep 04 02:50
_Hicham_and package management problem will be wiped out by packagekit (hopefully)Sep 04 02:50
sebsebsebstefan_: would be better if schestowitz was here I think,  but  go a headSep 04 02:50
sebsebsebif  anyone wants to talk about your article in here, that isSep 04 02:50
Chips_Hicham_> Linux is slowly conquering the desktop market"   I believe this very much.  And I believe that MS knows this and in fact has given up on doing anything to really improve Windows.  Ballmer wants so bad to start Online advertising over the grave of Google, or become a media company like NBC with SilverlightSep 04 02:50
_Hicham_Chips : it is a factSep 04 02:51
_Hicham_desktop conquering has begun with Mandrake in 1998Sep 04 02:51
oiaohmNot really _Hicham_Sep 04 02:51
_Hicham_how ?Sep 04 02:51
stefan_I read this article ( about why open source software might not be the best solution. I am looking for counter-argumentsSep 04 02:52
stefan_please, shoot! :)Sep 04 02:52
oiaohmWe are only starting now to get the tech to make a desktop OS out of Linux.Sep 04 02:52
sebsebsebstefan_   is  new to Linux and that  it seems, and he has read a negative article regarding FOSS that he is believeing so far,  so  I was hopeing    he could discuss it here a bit, and get some real truth :)Sep 04 02:52
stefan_I am not very new to linux, have been using it for... I guess 3 years now...Sep 04 02:52
oiaohmAudio and video play back required scheduler and lock corrections.Sep 04 02:52
oiaohmThat are getting close to complete.Sep 04 02:52
stefan_just new to all the IRC commands that are available:PSep 04 02:52
Chipsto gain more of the server and business market, Linux needs to gain more of the desktop marketSep 04 02:52
oiaohmDesktop management is still lacking.Sep 04 02:53
oiaohmEverything is going in the right direction.Sep 04 02:53
ChipsOiaohm> ti some degree yes, but very usuableSep 04 02:53
stefan_so, anyone who wants to read the article...?Sep 04 02:55
oiaohmstefan_: there is lot of logical faults there.Sep 04 02:55
oiaohmTake FOSS biggest market super computers.Sep 04 02:55
sebsebseboiaohm: I thought it was the server?Sep 04 02:56
oiaohmThat market would willing pay for commerical software before it fell to Linux.Sep 04 02:56
Chipsstefan>what article?Sep 04 02:56
sebsebseboiaohm: well there aren't that many super computers I meanSep 04 02:56
oiaohmIn money sebsebsebSep 04 02:56
stefan_this one: 04 02:56
sebsebseboiaohm: ah okSep 04 02:56
oiaohmThat market is more prepaired to pay for custom solutions.Sep 04 02:56
oiaohmto get fast results.Sep 04 02:57
oiaohmFOSS fits perfectly if something does not work right they have there own staff of coders and can just fix it.Sep 04 02:57
oiaohmLike 80 percent of Linux kernel devepolers are paid to do it.Sep 04 02:57
oiaohmYes that is right paid.Sep 04 02:58
stefan_but doesn't it just suck to have to search all kinds of user forums to get something to start working, when it should have worked right away?Sep 04 02:58
oiaohmSame numbers apply to freebsd kernel.Sep 04 02:58
twitterThe miracle of life, compound growth, it is all rather amazing.  Breasts are all about comfort and security.  These are powerful emotions well raised people have imprinted on them.  -> It's called the "Milky Way" cause the stars are milk from the breast of a goddesses ... WHy the obsession with sexual organs in superstition?Sep 04 02:58
oiaohmNotice something.Sep 04 02:58
oiaohmBoth are building devices .Sep 04 02:58
oiaohmFOSS and equipment building goes hand and hand.Sep 04 02:59
oiaohmNow lot of cases devices makers cannot afford to make OS's and the like in there own right.Sep 04 02:59
oiaohmFOSS makes it possiable for them to share tech with the competitors so make what they need.Sep 04 03:00
oiaohmAt a afordable cost.Sep 04 03:00
stefan_oiaohm, because of the flagrant grammer mistake there, i find it hard to take your message seriouslySep 04 03:00
Chipsstefan>  I mostly stopped reading the article at when he says:  "Why is Free Software so Bad in Quality?"  That when the shill alert came on, or he does not know what he is talking about.Sep 04 03:00
oiaohmstefan_: If you want me to give a rats about grammer hope you like major spelling errors.Sep 04 03:00
stefan_Chips> please, do read the rest of it. don't stop reading because you suspect you are not going to like it. that's closed-minded thinkingSep 04 03:01
oiaohmI am a heavy dyslexia suffer stefan_  I can only do one or the other not both.Sep 04 03:01
ChipsI find the quality of most GPL software in my distro to be outstanding and beyond anything that MS can makeSep 04 03:01
stefan_OK oiaohm :)Sep 04 03:01
sebsebsebChips: same hereSep 04 03:01
oiaohmFoss makes money.Sep 04 03:02
twitterWhy don't you spare us the troll, stephan, and ask us what's troubling you?Sep 04 03:02
oiaohmIf foss did not make companies money companies would not fund developers to work on it that simple.Sep 04 03:02
sebsebseboiaohm:  yeah seems soSep 04 03:02
twittercounter, buy hardware that does not suck and complain to the maker.  -> stefan_: but doesn't it just suck to have to search all kinds of user forums to get something to start working, when it should have worked right away?Sep 04 03:02
oiaohmSections of Foss are well funded sections are not.Sep 04 03:02
oiaohmMostly linked to how much that section of market is prepaid to put up to find developers stefan_Sep 04 03:03
twitterThere's nothing free software can do about winmodems and other hardware that's designed to be impossible to use and such hardware is always second rate.Sep 04 03:03
stefan_my basic trouble is economy, i.e. surviving: "The attempts of the FOSS movement to present a coherent economic case have been totally unconvincing. After having condemned closed source as immoral, Richard Stallman’s basis for an economically sustainable basis for FOSS is donations (i.e begging) and selling T-shirts. "Sep 04 03:04
oiaohmLinux kernel economically works stefan_Sep 04 03:04
twitterAsk IBM, Red Hat and Google about economics.Sep 04 03:04
oiaohmappache again economically works.Sep 04 03:04
stefan_oiaohm, why is that so?Sep 04 03:04
twitterAsk M$ about survival as they fire thousands of employees and go into debt.Sep 04 03:05
stefan_twitter, that is besides the pointSep 04 03:05
oiaohmBecause with appache lot of web sites are run by business who employ developers to build web sites.Sep 04 03:05
twitterThe economic case for free software is well established.Sep 04 03:05
bruce89I'm sure Red Hat's involvement in the S&P 500 disproves thatSep 04 03:05
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oiaohmIf they design solo they would not have a server stefan_Sep 04 03:05
stefan_what is Red Hat's involvement in the S&P 500?Sep 04 03:05
oiaohmthat was cheep that simple.Sep 04 03:05
Chipsnext quarter could be most interesting for MS, will they get a small bump out of Seven?Sep 04 03:05
twitterThere are thousands of distributions used all around the world.  This is a model that works.Sep 04 03:06
oiaohmParticular markets FOSS model works perfectly.Sep 04 03:06
oiaohmThose markets products are great.Sep 04 03:06
bruce89stefan_: they're in itSep 04 03:06
oiaohmLike appache is the most dominate web server.Sep 04 03:06
oiaohmphp is the most dominate web site scripting langauge.Sep 04 03:07
stefan_The question is: what do the people who are involved in developing Ubuntu (and/or other free software) do to make enough money to pay for food and hosing?Sep 04 03:07
twitterFor developers, the economic case is especially strong.  You can either pay lots of money for SDKs that yank you around or you can get the GNU tool chain at no cost and thousands of examples.Sep 04 03:07
stefan_*housing?Sep 04 03:07
bruce89code?Sep 04 03:07
twitterWhat do you do to make a living?Sep 04 03:07
oiaohmDesktop is one of the hard markets stefan_Sep 04 03:07
twitterWhy do I care?Sep 04 03:07
stefan_I'm a student at a universitySep 04 03:07
oiaohmUbuntu is having to target servers to pay some of there costs.Sep 04 03:07
stefan_so I am not biased at this point ;-)Sep 04 03:07
twitterVery good.  Now would you ever think to sell software and compete against M$ directly?Sep 04 03:08
oiaohmBecause server market is one of the areas that will pay.Sep 04 03:08
oiaohmFOSS is a different model.Sep 04 03:08
twitterDo you think you would make a very good living with a non free text editor, for example?Sep 04 03:08
oiaohmFOSS is about sharing of code.Sep 04 03:08
oiaohmTo allow things to happen that companies normally could not do alone.Sep 04 03:08
twitterAs in, do you think you can succeed where Word Perfect failed?Sep 04 03:08
stefan_this is not about meSep 04 03:09
oiaohmFoss also allows things claimed to be impossable to become possable.Sep 04 03:09
twitterEconomics IS about you.  It's about rational individual choices.Sep 04 03:09
ChipsI remember a long time ago when I tinkered with OS/2, reading that IBM telling users to move to Linux.  Because IBM had decided it could not compete with MS Windows marketing.  It also decided that nobody could build software for the Windows platform that was profitable, before MS came in and hosed it.  Therefore, only free OS software, in IBM's words could ever have a chance to competeSep 04 03:09
oiaohmLike the development of the Linux kernel at moment heading to having a RTOS support in a desktop kernel.Sep 04 03:09
twitterRather than try to compete against Word, would you do the practical thing and use Open Office, Kword, Google docs, or AbiWord and modify it to suit your purposes?Sep 04 03:10
oiaohmNow as a solo company how much would it cost to make the Linux kernel stefan_Sep 04 03:10
oiaohmOr even just apache.Sep 04 03:10
twitterIf you modified it, would it cost you anything to share the modifications?Sep 04 03:10
twitterThe same principles drive every piece of free software.Sep 04 03:10
oiaohmyou are looking at huge ammounts of money stefan_Sep 04 03:10
oiaohmVery few solo companies could aford to do so.Sep 04 03:10
oiaohmThat is the encommics of FOSSSep 04 03:11
twitterIt's cheaper and easier to use the free thing than it is to use the non free thing.Sep 04 03:11
oiaohmThey make the impossable possiable.Sep 04 03:11
Chips<stefan_> The question is: what do the people who are involved in developing Ubuntu (and/or other free software) do to make enough money to pay for food and hosing?  IS IT ALL ABOUT MONEY?  Does everyone now have to make money on everything they do?Sep 04 03:11
stefan_Chips, you definately need *some* money in order to survive in lifeSep 04 03:12
twitterThere is money to be made customizing software.  Most programers do this for a living and could use free software more easily than non free software.Sep 04 03:12
oiaohmThere is also what I call the black maket of developers stefan_Sep 04 03:12
ChipsWhy do we have to pay for the wheel to be re-invented every time?Sep 04 03:12
twitterEveryone has to eat.Sep 04 03:12
oiaohmYou are employeed by a company to look after something.Sep 04 03:12
oiaohmThey don't have enough work for you.   you cannot work for a different company contract does not allow it.Sep 04 03:12
stefan_indeed, everyone has to eat. so,why not pay people for what they are the best at?Sep 04 03:12
oiaohmBut company will allow you to work on FOSS project on side.Sep 04 03:12
twitterThere's zero reward for trying to sell your software.Sep 04 03:13
oiaohmWhat would have been wasted time without FOSS gets used for something.Sep 04 03:13
ChipsOnce MS is gone, or even before when GNU/Linux gains even more share, they will be niche areas that can sell programs, example, gamesSep 04 03:13
oiaohmSome cases turning out great for the company.Sep 04 03:13
twitterProgrammers are better off in a free market of the kind free software provides.Sep 04 03:13
twitterOutside of that, they are constrained by owners who exploit them.Sep 04 03:13
twitterand usersSep 04 03:14
oiaohmThe big error in the logic is that FOSS developers have to be paid to eat from FOSS stefan_Sep 04 03:14
stefan_what do they do to eat now, then?Sep 04 03:14
oiaohmThere are lot of support roles and the like that have to be done so systems work.Sep 04 03:14
twitterThe non free proposition is a lie.Sep 04 03:14
twitterEat the rich, what eles?Sep 04 03:15
oiaohmLets look a closed source.Sep 04 03:15
stefan_that support is needed means that software is not user-friendly enoughSep 04 03:15
Chipsand if you think MS is going keep paying big bucks to write software, think again.  They will move the sofware business to India and pay 1 to $2 an hour for coders thereSep 04 03:15
oiaohmYou write once sell millions of times.Sep 04 03:15
oiaohmDevelopers still only get paided once.Sep 04 03:15
twitterFree software support is much better than non free.Sep 04 03:15
oiaohmCompany takes all the proft from the developers work.Sep 04 03:15
stefan_the programming could be done in india, but te thinking will still be done in the western worldSep 04 03:15
oiaohmFoss developers gets payed about the same.Sep 04 03:15
stefan_all they learn in india is how to build websitesSep 04 03:16
ChipsMS already threatrened the US about doing thatSep 04 03:16
oiaohmcode is just released free.Sep 04 03:16
twitterIf you think looking things up in WE trolled out forums is a pain, try wasting hours on the phone with tech support of any kind.Sep 04 03:16
oiaohmCost of maintaining the code is spreed by having developers in different companys.Sep 04 03:16
oiaohmSome of those developers would other wise be sitting around doing nothing.Sep 04 03:16
oiaohmand getting paidSep 04 03:17
twitterPlenty of people make money "supporting" free software the same way, if you want that kind of thing.Sep 04 03:17
oiaohmSince the time was a waste product is not really costing the company anything.Sep 04 03:17
Chipsthere will always be a market for some types of commercial software, or paid closed source, like gamesSep 04 03:17
Chipsbut operating systems, I doubt thatSep 04 03:17
oiaohmFoss basically is targeting the wasted developer time stefan_Sep 04 03:17
oiaohmAnd theres is a crap load of it out there.Sep 04 03:17
Chipsoiaohm>  windows is krapSep 04 03:18
oiaohmEven some of MS developers work on Foss projects here and there.Sep 04 03:18
sebsebsebstefan_: they also have an open source labSep 04 03:18
oiaohmLike sending patches to apache and firefox so they work better on windows.Sep 04 03:18
Chipsyes, there are some good people working for msSep 04 03:18
twitterThe most important question to ask about free software economics is, "why would I pay someone money for second rate, restrictive software when I can have better at no charge?"Sep 04 03:18
oiaohmThere are almost no software company not using Foss somewhere.Sep 04 03:19
stefan_oiahm: the fact that "Even some of MS developers work on Foss projects here and there"  points out that FOSS on it's own, is not a feasible economic systemSep 04 03:19
oiaohmOr working on Foss software.Sep 04 03:19
oiaohmstefan_: way did MS do it stefan_Sep 04 03:19
oiaohmMS wants to sell product of course.Sep 04 03:19
twitterI don't follow stefan.  That seems to indicate that M$ is unable to duplicate what free software does.Sep 04 03:19
oiaohmTo see more product Foss software has to work.Sep 04 03:20
Chipsfor a not feasible economic system it is still gaining market share for how long now?Sep 04 03:20
oiaohmThat is what you are missing.Sep 04 03:20
oiaohmie is a circle.Sep 04 03:20
stefan_MS /is/ unable to do what ubuntu does: that is *the* reason that i switched from windows to ubuntuSep 04 03:20
oiaohmMS needs foss to sell product.Sep 04 03:20
twitterM$ has always taken other people's code when they can, then excluded the creators.  This was not a sustainable strategy because they ran out of suckers to rob.Sep 04 03:20
sebsebsebstefan_: and what's that?Sep 04 03:21
oiaohmIBM needs Foss to sell product.Sep 04 03:21
oiaohmDell needs Foss to sell product.Sep 04 03:21
oiaohmNote Dell works on ubuntu.Sep 04 03:21
Chipsanyway, FOSS works for me, better than that Malware Target Blue Screen of Death M$ WindoseSep 04 03:21
twitterTell me something M$ can actually do.Sep 04 03:21
sebsebsebstefan_: Apple  has taken a lot of FOSS and  made it part of OS X  or easilley available to itSep 04 03:21
oiaohmThat is the economic issue.Sep 04 03:21
sebsebsebOS X is based on FreeBSD if I have this correct, which is open sourceSep 04 03:21
oiaohmFoss is a symbolic releation ship.Sep 04 03:22
twitterBSD is free software.Sep 04 03:22
sebsebsebstefan_: easily available for it aboveSep 04 03:22
stefan_so the conclusion of that is that companies use open source in order to sell moreSep 04 03:22
Chipsanother MS fanboi pertending to be a Linux userSep 04 03:22
stefan_that is not the goal of open source, as i have interpreted itSep 04 03:22
oiaohmIt allows them to sell more stefan_Sep 04 03:22
stefan_yes oiaohm, i agreeSep 04 03:22
sebsebsebChips: who?Sep 04 03:22
Chipsnot uSep 04 03:23
oiaohmThat is the economic link of Foss.Sep 04 03:23
stefan_but isn't (one of the) the goal(s) of open source to let microsoft sell *less*?Sep 04 03:23
sebsebsebChips: stefan_ ?Sep 04 03:23
bruce89noSep 04 03:23
oiaohmFoss is to allow companies and people to do things to make them profit.Sep 04 03:23
oiaohmNot to be sold to make the profit.Sep 04 03:23
stefan_who do you mean by 'them'?'Sep 04 03:23
sebsebsebbruce89: the guy who  wrote the article?Sep 04 03:23
bruce89the point of FOSS is to do stuff, not to stop others from doing what they doSep 04 03:23
Chipsits not about MS, how much they sellSep 04 03:24
twitterI don't know what the goals of open source are.  The goal of free software is freedom.Sep 04 03:24
oiaohmEveryone stefan_Sep 04 03:24
oiaohmThat is the thing about Foss even you could use it to support something you are doing to make a profit stefan_Sep 04 03:24
sebsebsebtwitter: open source is a development model, but  people tend to mention the freedoms as well http://www.opensource.orgSep 04 03:24
stefan_Foss is to allow companies and people to do things to make *everyone* profit? that is impossibleSep 04 03:24
twitterPerformance, security, quality and economy come from freedom.Sep 04 03:24
twitterEveryone can profit.Sep 04 03:24
stefan_howSep 04 03:25
oiaohmRemember what I said about open source make the impossiable possible.Sep 04 03:25
bruce89stefan_: in most cases, FOSS is there because it can be doneSep 04 03:25
twitterby providing things of valueSep 04 03:25
sebsebsebtwitter: if I have this correct open source is seen as a great way to make software,  and so is free software which is similar, but with free  software it's more about the  freedoms that are gained and the advantages of thatSep 04 03:25
oiaohmYou can create websites major businesses .... all using stefan_Sep 04 03:25
oiaohmNow if you are lazy Foss will never make you a profit.Sep 04 03:25
twitterI don't know what the open source people think.Sep 04 03:25
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oiaohmFoss provides the fair chance for everyone to make a profit doing something stefan_Sep 04 03:26
stefan_my basic point is this: if you want good software, you will have to pay someone for it.Sep 04 03:26
twitterFree software is a great way to make software.Sep 04 03:26
stefan_does anyone disagree?Sep 04 03:26
oiaohmCompletelySep 04 03:26
stefan_whySep 04 03:26
oiaohmblender is one of the best 3d tools out there.Sep 04 03:26
oiaohmand its free.Sep 04 03:26
twitterShow me something great that free software does not do better.Sep 04 03:26
bruce89stefan_: not being rude, but surely if you don't understand FOSS, you shouldn't use itSep 04 03:26
oiaohmAnd Foss stefan_Sep 04 03:27
sebsebseboiaohm: sure, but it did start off as a commercial product,  which failed as one, hence them open sourceing itSep 04 03:27
twitterthat is rude, bruce.Sep 04 03:27
bruce89more so than I plannedSep 04 03:27
oiaohmsebsebseb:  it sucked as a commerical productSep 04 03:27
oiaohmIt could not keep up.Sep 04 03:27
stefan_if someone who works at MS, makes FOSS in his spare time, then MS is financing FOSS. Doesn't that seem contradictory to you?Sep 04 03:27
oiaohmDeveloper did not want it to die.Sep 04 03:27
twitterit would be better to teach him what free software is than to tell him to go away.Sep 04 03:27
twitternoSep 04 03:28
oiaohmstefan_: that is the open source world.Sep 04 03:28
oiaohmThings that seam insane are true.Sep 04 03:28
sebsebseboiaohm:  ok if you say so,  and that's the blender history I know,  that it used to start off as being commercialSep 04 03:28
bruce89twitter: I know, I didn't mean it like thatSep 04 03:28
sebsebseboiaohm: I don't know much about blender, and yes I don't know how to use itSep 04 03:28
bruce89mind you, I don't know what I did meanSep 04 03:28
twitterlolSep 04 03:28
oiaohmsebsebseb: once 3d houses could start adding there own features to blender its development took off.Sep 04 03:28
sebsebseboiaohm: it's not the kind of program that you just use,  it has a steep learning curve, it seemsSep 04 03:28
stefan_so, then you say that without MS, FOSS can not exist.Sep 04 03:28
bruce89stefan_: how?Sep 04 03:28
oiaohmsebsebseb: mostly because 3d houses did not care about that bit.Sep 04 03:29
ChipsHey DaemonFC>  have you seen this one?  jibjab big box mart?  Since you worked there. 04 03:29
oiaohmsebsebseb:  gettting movie out door was more important than interface.Sep 04 03:29
twitternow, stefan, you are being silly.Sep 04 03:29
sebsebsebstefan_: sometimes commercial products don't work out so they get open sourcedSep 04 03:29
twitterM$ is a parasite.Sep 04 03:29
sebsebsebstefan_: Blender is one example Netscape is anotherSep 04 03:29
DaemonFCChips: Yes, old, funny thoughSep 04 03:29
stefan_example of what?Sep 04 03:29
oiaohmsebsebseb: 2.50 has the interface fixed up to something new.Sep 04 03:29
sebsebsebstefan_: a closed source program  becoming open sourceSep 04 03:29
bruce89Java surelySep 04 03:30
sebsebsebyeah and Java is anotherSep 04 03:30
oiaohmLot of closed source programs released open source are companies dieing.Sep 04 03:30
bruce89OOoSep 04 03:30
twitterMozilla is not doing well these days?  I'm sorry to hear that.  ha haSep 04 03:30
stefan_why is that silly?Sep 04 03:30
sebsebsebstefan_: ,but  a lot of the time it's this, the program dies, or it gets open sourcedSep 04 03:30
oiaohmLast change to save self they release the source code.Sep 04 03:30
oiaohm change/chanceSep 04 03:30
twittermost of the time, commercial software started out as free software.Sep 04 03:30
ChipsDaemonFC> yes the jibjab site had some funny politcal stuff as well.Sep 04 03:30
stefan_but if it was open source from the start, it would have died instantlySep 04 03:30
twitterMosaic -> Spyglass -> IE for example.Sep 04 03:30
oiaohmIncorrect stefan_Sep 04 03:31
stefan_whySep 04 03:31
twittername some free software that has diedSep 04 03:31
bruce89has Linux died?Sep 04 03:31
oiaohmapache started out from scratch and its still alive and kicking.Sep 04 03:31
sebsebsebstefan_: commercial  software can use open source   as well,  for example    Safari  or  Google Chrome with the open source webkit rendering engineSep 04 03:31
sebsebsebstefan_: it depends on the lisenseSep 04 03:31
twitterit is immortal.  as long as people want the thing to do, they will have itSep 04 03:31
sebsebsebanother example would be Cedega or   Crossover Office,   using WineSep 04 03:31
stefan_let me ask this question: what is your ideal world, regarding softwareSep 04 03:31
stefan_?Sep 04 03:31
bruce89being forks of an old version of wineSep 04 03:31
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oiaohmstefan_:  there is no ideal world when it comes to software.Sep 04 03:32
bruce89stefan_: for everyone to use what they like, without forcing other people to changeSep 04 03:32
oiaohmEverything is always in flux.Sep 04 03:32
sebsebsebstefan_: ideally most software should be opensource/freesoftware in my opinion,  however sometimes maybe a program is better off being closed source, depending on the type of program it isSep 04 03:32
ChipsI thnk you have to go back to the early days, when RMS started his idea's of the GNU.  When Bill G. wrote his letter to hobbyists, telling them they were all thieves.  Not everyone believes in making money on every piece of software written.Sep 04 03:32
twitterI don't want to use non free software.Sep 04 03:32
oiaohmOnly thing I would change is make it illegal for closed source software to stop production without releasing its source code stefan_Sep 04 03:33
sebsebseboiaohm: that sounds goodSep 04 03:33
oiaohmBecause not releasing the source code leaves end users stuck stefan_Sep 04 03:33
bruce89that's the problem with non-free formatsSep 04 03:33
stefan_most end users are not educated well enough to use source codeSep 04 03:33
twitterNon free software should not have government copyright protection.Sep 04 03:33
DaemonFCI'm going to make my own kernel, I'm tired of wrestling around with old bugs that have been fixed for monthsSep 04 03:33
sebsebseboiaohm: altough some closed software,   should just die really, becaue of  the type of software it is,  for example a Windows virus :DSep 04 03:33
oiaohmIf you ahve the source you can employ someone to work on it.Sep 04 03:34
ChipsMore and more, in the future software will be free, except for the niches.  Or it will be pirated, like in ChinaSep 04 03:34
bruce89"In the 60s, we wrote Free Software, but it was just called Software"Sep 04 03:34
oiaohmThere will always be places in the market for closed source.Sep 04 03:34
twitterWhat education is required to use Ubuntu, besides washing away M$ lies?Sep 04 03:34
sebsebsebChips: pirating software also locks people inSep 04 03:34
Chipseither way, the days of making money selling a lot of software are coming to an endSep 04 03:34
oiaohmJust in future it will be a different blance.Sep 04 03:34
oiaohmWe got out of blance for a while.Sep 04 03:35
twitterFree software is a lot easier to use and keep than non free software.  I'm always amazed at the complexity and trouble Windows is.Sep 04 03:35
Chipssebsebseb> agreed, and I did not say it was right, only that is the logical conclusionSep 04 03:35
sebsebsebpirating software is bad, and  if   more people knew about those great  opensource/freesoftware alternatives, well :)Sep 04 03:35
bruce89also, with FOSS, there's always someone who know how it works, because they wrote itSep 04 03:36
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Chipsthat is why we are here, to help them learnSep 04 03:36
DaemonFCyeah, it may be alright except that if there's a bug, I'll find it because it affects my hardware even if it was on someone's "compatibility list"Sep 04 03:36
oiaohmNot always bruce89 that is a bit of a myth.Sep 04 03:36
oiaohmSometimes key developers die bruce89Sep 04 03:36
bruce89well, unless they've diedSep 04 03:36
bruce89or gone to prison...Sep 04 03:36
stefan_yes, bruce, but do you really have to know how a microwave oven works, in order to use it?Sep 04 03:36
sebsebsebstefan_: with free opensource/freesoftware   the code will  live on, as long as  someone can still develope itSep 04 03:36
bruce89of courseSep 04 03:36
stefan_then we disagree :)Sep 04 03:36
oiaohmYet a microwave could have open source inside it how would you know stefan_Sep 04 03:37
sebsebsebstefan_: there are quite a lot of closed source games out there,  that never got open sourced, and don't get sold anymore, for exampleSep 04 03:37
bruce89stefan_: I meant that if something broke, you can askSep 04 03:37
twitterM$ gets i4i relief? 04 03:37
oiaohmLets take most adsl and dsl modems stefan_Sep 04 03:37
DaemonFCI hate dealing with distribution kernelsSep 04 03:37
stefan_that means that it worked in the first place, which is not always the truthSep 04 03:37
twitterUS law sucks.  No justice.Sep 04 03:37
oiaohmMost of thoses have Linux or freebsd inside stefan_Sep 04 03:37
bruce89I don't have a clue how the Kernel works really, but I don't need toSep 04 03:37
oiaohmSo most people with internet are indirectly funding FOSS stefan_Sep 04 03:37
stefan_but what if it breaks down, bruceSep 04 03:38
stefan_?Sep 04 03:38
bruce89I ask someone who doesSep 04 03:38
oiaohmFOSS is the magical invisable market.Sep 04 03:38
Chips<twitter> US law sucks.  No justice."  Not sure its going get any betterSep 04 03:38
oiaohmIts all around you yet you don't see it stefan_Sep 04 03:38
DaemonFCoiaohm:  What the hell is linux-next?Sep 04 03:38
DaemonFCthat's new to meSep 04 03:38
DaemonFCshould I patch with rc8, then rc8-git2, then linux-next?Sep 04 03:39
oiaohmlinux-next is the test branch of the Linux kernel for what might be in the next version.Sep 04 03:39
oiaohmNote the word might.Sep 04 03:39
twitterthings might get better.  If East Texas does not want to be a total laughing stock, they need to bust M$. ->  Microsoft said it was pleased with the appeals court decision and that it looks forward to presenting its case at a hearing on Sept. 23.Sep 04 03:39
oiaohmWhere linus picks up most of his patches from DaemonFCSep 04 03:39
DaemonFCoiaohm: So if I use the rc8 patch for 2.6.31, do I have to patch with git2 then linux-next?Sep 04 03:40
DaemonFCor just rc8 then linux-next?Sep 04 03:40
oiaohmNormaly I don't touch linux-nextSep 04 03:40
oiaohmJust rcSep 04 03:40
twitterWhat if your airplane should suddenly turn into jello?  stefan_: but what if it breaks down, bruceSep 04 03:40
twitterEveryone would die!Sep 04 03:40
DaemonFCI wonder if nvidia-common still kills the kernel packageSep 04 03:40
DaemonFCguess I'll find outSep 04 03:41
bruce89at least it would cushion the fallSep 04 03:41
twitteryes, but they wold drown!Sep 04 03:41
ChipsMS will never stop selling OfficeSep 04 03:41
oiaohmstefan_:  its also like one aircraft company demo a Linux that can reboot in under 1 second for nav displayes.Sep 04 03:41
twitterhorrors, aluminum turning to jello at 500 MPH and 20,000 feet!Sep 04 03:42
sebsebsebChips: well  we'll see, but  there's going to be a Office 2010  online to compete with Google DocsSep 04 03:42
sebsebsebChips: free to people with live accountSep 04 03:42
bruce89I doubt that aluminium would turn into jellySep 04 03:42
oiaohmYour live can be in Linux's hands and you never know it stefan_Sep 04 03:42
twitteroh and gnu/linux might go away.Sep 04 03:42
Chipsnot going happen, too much money is changing handsSep 04 03:42
DaemonFCI've got enough experience to build my own kernel, it's just a pain to maintain my own Nvidia driver for itSep 04 03:42
twittereveryone run.Sep 04 03:42
sebsebsebChips: it is going to happen, I read articles, and they confirmed it them selvesSep 04 03:42
DaemonFCcause whenever there's an X update it replaces some files that the Nvidia driver needed and you have to reinstall the nvidia driver after X crashes :PSep 04 03:42
twitterVMware kicks out M$ 04 03:43
bruce89anyway, sorry for being so rudeSep 04 03:43
twitterno shills for them.Sep 04 03:43
oiaohmAnyone here dare fly in a Plain using MS for nav?Sep 04 03:43
sebsebsebChips: article or articles, one or two, anyway   they will still be selling  the normal type of version as wellSep 04 03:43
DaemonFCmy GPS runs Linux 2.6.17 and some kind of miniature GNOMESep 04 03:43
DaemonFCit's pretty badassSep 04 03:43
bruce89Garmin?Sep 04 03:43
twitter=?  VMware has defended its decision to place new restrictions on sponsors and exhibitors at this year’s VMworld conference, blaming    the move on “shenanigans” pulled by Microsoft at last year’s VMworld in Las Vegas.Sep 04 03:43
stefan_did someone read a message from me, saying that dying was bad?:PSep 04 03:43
DaemonFCexcept it has FAT32 for the file systemSep 04 03:43
DaemonFCyeahSep 04 03:43
sebsebsebthat's a point stefan_   for  really important computers, hardly anyone uses MicrosoftSep 04 03:44
stefan_i know that sebSep 04 03:44
oiaohmLot these days use Linux stefan_ for important stuff.Sep 04 03:44
stefan_but that doesn't mean that linux/unix can uphold itself *economically*Sep 04 03:44
oiaohmSomeone has to be paid to make those systems.Sep 04 03:44
bruce89it seems to have for 15? yearsSep 04 03:44
Chipssebsebseb> Chips: it is going to happen"  You think, well, how many Billions would MS lose if that happens?  I tell you, they settle with i4i or they invest in the court system, or maybe they patch Office.  But you can bet that Office will still be selling when the deadline comes.  But I hope I am wrongSep 04 03:45
oiaohmThat is where paid developers of Linux come from stefan_Sep 04 03:45
bruce89of course, FOSS is older than thatSep 04 03:45
sebsebsebstefan_: Unix goes back to the 70's and yes there are still companies using it todaySep 04 03:45
twitterM$, always trashy when they crash the party ->  Matheson specifically referred to Microsoft’s casino chip ploy, and claimed that Microsoft representatives were kicked out    of the Venetian casino, where the conference was being held, because the giveaway violated a Vegas rule against giving away    poker chips. The chips were reportedly authentic $1 Venetian chips in a package that said “Looking for your best bet? You won’t Sep 04 03:45
stefan_in these 15 years, software companies have been around..Sep 04 03:45
bruce89but their code is still out thereSep 04 03:45
oiaohmWe are getting to the end of the cycle stefan_Sep 04 03:45
bruce89look at Nautilus for exampleSep 04 03:45
sebsebsebChips: yes the BBC article mentioned how they would lose like four billion doing itSep 04 03:45
bruce89The company that backed it bellied up, but the code lives onSep 04 03:45
oiaohmJust make a chart of numbers of software companies doing closed source and those doing open stefan_Sep 04 03:46
oiaohmYou will notice a little trend.Sep 04 03:46
stefan_which is...Sep 04 03:46
oiaohmClosed is dieing out.Sep 04 03:46
stefan_so where are the Open-people getting money from?Sep 04 03:47
sebsebsebstefan_: already told you,  IBM, and Google, for exampleSep 04 03:47
oiaohmSupport services hardware bundling.Sep 04 03:47
twitterwhere are the grocers getting their money?Sep 04 03:47
oiaohmCustom solutions stefan_Sep 04 03:47
twitterhow can people possibly cook food for a living?Sep 04 03:47
stefan_so the people who are working for IBM and Google /also/ program most of the ubuntu stuff?Sep 04 03:47
DaemonFCstefan_: According to the Linux Foundation, about 75% of the kernel developers are paid employees of large companies that use or support Linux as part of their businessSep 04 03:47
bruce89stefan_: well, not themSep 04 03:48
sebsebsebstefan_: "most of the Ubuntu" stuff hehSep 04 03:48
oiaohmThink of floss money stream as the same as cooks.Sep 04 03:48
DaemonFCstefan_: it's a pretty massive undertaking and without the corporate backing, Linux would have been the next HURDSep 04 03:48
bruce89stefan_: 99.9% of "Ubuntu" stuff is by someone elseSep 04 03:48
twitterusers program most of the stuffSep 04 03:48
oiaohmPeople put to getter different floss solutions in combinations that pay.Sep 04 03:48
sebsebsebstefan_: really all Ubuntu is, is  a load of selected  opensource/freesoftware   and there branding and suchSep 04 03:48
twitterthat's what free software is all aboutSep 04 03:48
Chipssebsebseb>  4 billion, they will find a way.  MS is a very determined company, they will leave no stone unturned to find a way, or to grease the right handSep 04 03:48
bruce89Ubuntu just take the credit if you can imagine such a thingSep 04 03:48
oiaohmFoss makes it money indirectly that is the problem for people looking at it stefan_Sep 04 03:48
oiaohmEven MS makes a lot of money form the indirect.Sep 04 03:49
oiaohmLike charaging partners to have access to support services.Sep 04 03:49
stefan_elaborate on 'indirect'?Sep 04 03:49
bruce89not direcSep 04 03:49
oiaohmMS sells support stefan_Sep 04 03:49
oiaohmAs well as software.Sep 04 03:49
bruce89not selling the software == indirectSep 04 03:49
oiaohmFoss just cuts outs out selling the softwareSep 04 03:50
DaemonFCstefan_: Ubuntu basically repackages everyone elses workSep 04 03:50
oiaohmAnd goes after the inderects.Sep 04 03:50
DaemonFCspotting a Ubuntu kernel contribution is kind of like saying you saw bigfootSep 04 03:50
stefan_support? I needed more support with Ubuntu (trough forums) than I ever needed with WindowsSep 04 03:50
oiaohmCompanies stefan_Sep 04 03:50
oiaohmthat need there systems working 24/7Sep 04 03:50
stefan_well, companies suck, anyway:PSep 04 03:50
sebsebsebChips:  Here you go 04 03:50
Chipsstefan_> are you an Ubuntu user?Sep 04 03:51
stefan_yesSep 04 03:51
oiaohmThis is the issue to Foss as just a end user you suck.Sep 04 03:51
sebsebsebstefan_: there is a learning curve for any OSSep 04 03:51
oiaohmBecause you don't pay.Sep 04 03:51
sebsebsebstefan_: at some stage, you learnt WindowsSep 04 03:51
oiaohmThere is a problem with the desktop market and FossSep 04 03:51
oiaohmBoth are kinda incompadible.Sep 04 03:51
DaemonFCoiaohm: Should I select NUMA support?Sep 04 03:52
DaemonFCI've never noticed that optionSep 04 03:52
DaemonFCI have a Core 2 Duo if that helpsSep 04 03:52
oiaohmHow many CPU's.Sep 04 03:52
Chipssebsebseb> thx's 4 the linkSep 04 03:52
stefan_you raise an interesting point oiaohmSep 04 03:52
sebsebseboiaohm: true the distros don't all work properly together with each otherSep 04 03:52
stefan_what is the incompatibility?Sep 04 03:52
DaemonFCoiaohm: One CPU with two coresSep 04 03:52
sebsebsebChips: no problemSep 04 03:52
oiaohmWill not make much difference between DaemonFCSep 04 03:52
DaemonFCso no then?Sep 04 03:52
oiaohmNot enough cores DaemonFC about 8 to 12 you start seeing NUMA effects.Sep 04 03:53
DaemonFCUbuntu defaults to yesSep 04 03:53
oiaohmIt does not hurt DaemonFCSep 04 03:53
DaemonFCit says say yes if you have an i7, Opteron, or EM64T NUMA CPUSep 04 03:53
sebsebsebChips: hmm I typed in the http://www.    normalley those links  are http://whatever it is goes hereSep 04 03:53
sebsebsebChips: so the link I gave looks a bit odd to meSep 04 03:53
oiaohmNote number of cores with aht DaemonFCSep 04 03:53
oiaohmstefan_:  do you as desktop users pay people to make custom solutions for you.Sep 04 03:54
DaemonFCfstack protector should probably be onSep 04 03:54
DaemonFCthat didn't exist til 2.6.30 I don't thinkSep 04 03:54
stefan_Chips, does it surprise you that I use Ubuntu?Sep 04 03:54
oiaohmstefan_: no .  So you are not compadible with the Foss model of operation.Sep 04 03:54
sebsebsebChips: yep no www.    in  those links,  and a lot of links now days, since browsers don't need it anymoreSep 04 03:54
bruce89sebsebseb: it was only a convention I thinkSep 04 03:55
oiaohmstefan_:  reason why Ubuntu is trying to get dell and others to work with them.Sep 04 03:55
oiaohmstefan_:  desktop users will pay hardware makers something.Sep 04 03:55
Chipsyep, this works 04 03:55
bruce89sebsebseb: World Wide WebSep 04 03:55
sebsebsebbruce89: replying to other channal here hmmSep 04 03:56
bruce89you asked a question in the wrong oneSep 04 03:56
oiaohmstefan_: there is a encommic model behind foss is just a unique one.Sep 04 03:56
sebsebsebbruce89: no I wanted to ask in there,  since   it seemed to me like a bit of a silly questionSep 04 03:56
oiaohmstefan_: that is not compadible with eveyrthing.Sep 04 03:56
bruce89no questions are sillySep 04 03:56
sebsebsebbruce89: a convention meaning?    for anyone that might end up reading this log,  apparantly  trolls mightSep 04 03:57
bruce89if that's how you're going to play this, be that waySep 04 03:57
DaemonFCoiaohm: Ubuntu seems to turn on a lot of debugging stuff that I don't care about :PSep 04 03:57
DaemonFCprobably makes crash reports more useful but I would think it slows the kernel down someSep 04 03:58
sebsebsebbruce89: well log  not on website yet,   and   it's silly to have  these kind of chats in here,  we have another channal for thatSep 04 03:58
bruce89really, you lot should be ashamed of yourselves with all this M$ crap, it's sad and patheticSep 04 03:58
stefan_what is the economic model behind foss, then?Sep 04 03:58
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stefan_companies pay for it?Sep 04 03:58
sebsebsebhe doesn't like how you guys put M$ rather than MicrosoftSep 04 03:59
stefan_seb, who are you referring to? :)Sep 04 03:59
sebsebsebbruceSep 04 03:59
oiaohmDrop the idea that is has to be directly paid for stefan_Sep 04 04:00
oiaohmFOSS is about code sharing to make profit.Sep 04 04:00
stefan_how is it indirectly paid for, then?Sep 04 04:00
oiaohmCompanies higher developers to make them like a rounter to sell.Sep 04 04:00
oiaohmIn that a OS is required.Sep 04 04:01
oiaohmSo Foss is used.Sep 04 04:01
oiaohmThe developer submits code back.Sep 04 04:01
oiaohmNext product builder around has better code to work with so can make a better product.Sep 04 04:01
oiaohmSo it repeats company is making profit.Sep 04 04:01
oiaohmFunding developers working on FossSep 04 04:01
oiaohmSo the developers are not short of money far from it they are well paid.Sep 04 04:02
oiaohmThere is example after example of this stefan_Sep 04 04:03
Chipsstefab_> drop the idea that all software has to be paid for periodSep 04 04:03
oiaohmGoogle makes a seach engine.Sep 04 04:03
oiaohmThe need a OS under.Sep 04 04:03
oiaohmThey went Linux.Sep 04 04:03
Chipsnot everyone writes software with the idea of ever being paidSep 04 04:03
oiaohmthey have to maintain it so they provide paid developers.Sep 04 04:03
stefan_so, the people who develop software get their income from elsewhere?Sep 04 04:03
oiaohmAnd add new features.Sep 04 04:03
oiaohmYep stefan_Sep 04 04:03
oiaohmThey are being paid for something else.Sep 04 04:04
oiaohmThe list of something elses are endless.Sep 04 04:04
stefan_so the people who are best at developing software have actually chosen a career in non-software developingSep 04 04:04
stefan_seems like a paradox to meSep 04 04:04
oiaohmYou still need to develop software.Sep 04 04:05
oiaohmLike google needs cluster filesystems.Sep 04 04:05
wallclimberoiaohm, you deserve a medal for exhibiting such patience and good nature...Sep 04 04:05
ChipsOiaohm, correct me if I am wrong,  but the kernel gets most of their money from Limo members, cellphone makers, IBM etcSep 04 04:05
ChipstivoSep 04 04:05
*twitter has quit ("Leaving.")Sep 04 04:05
oiaohmLinux foundation brings in a lot ChipsSep 04 04:05
ChipsRed Hat and other companies sell support for businesses and serversSep 04 04:06
wallclimberstefan, i'm dumb as a box of rocks, but even I can understand what oiaohm has been explaining to youSep 04 04:06
oiaohmIts not just one small group where the money comes from ChipsSep 04 04:06
Chipsagreed, I was only hitting the obviousSep 04 04:06
oiaohmLot of these companies are higher full time software developers stefan_Sep 04 04:06
wallclimberanyway, I'm up past my bedtime...just dropped in to wish everyone a good weekend...Sep 04 04:06
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oiaohmThey job is to look after the open source software and fix bugs that the companies depend on stefan_Sep 04 04:07
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oiaohmAt google 20 percent of there time gets paid to work on there own projects as well stefan_Sep 04 04:07
oiaohmyes 20 percent of there wage is to do work of there own choosing.  Nothing to do with googles needs.Sep 04 04:08
stefan_oiaohm, that stuff is new to me. if it is true, then OKSep 04 04:08
oiaohmIts true.Sep 04 04:08
Chipsjust because most GPL software is free in most GNU/Linux distro's for home use, doesn't mean some company has not paid to use it somewhere else, like the cellphone makers for exampleSep 04 04:08
DaemonFCoiaohm: If all I use is Ext4, I don't need Ext2 or Ext3 drivers, right?Sep 04 04:08
Chipspart of it I should saySep 04 04:09
DaemonFCI had wondered about thatSep 04 04:09
oiaohmI still build them just in case of problems DaemonFCSep 04 04:09
oiaohmIe ext4 is not old enough to go solo yet DaemonFCSep 04 04:09
DaemonFCI use extents on Ext4Sep 04 04:09
DaemonFCso it can't ever be mounted as ext3 anywaySep 04 04:09
oiaohmExt4 can mount ext3.Sep 04 04:09
oiaohmext2 don't know fully.Sep 04 04:10
oiaohmShould work.Sep 04 04:10
DaemonFCnot if you have extentsSep 04 04:10
DaemonFCext3 driver can't figure out what those files areSep 04 04:10
DaemonFCI'll build them as modulesSep 04 04:10
oiaohmExt4 driver detects ext3Sep 04 04:10
oiaohmAnd will not use extents on ext3 partition.Sep 04 04:10
DaemonFCyou can only go back to ext3 if you delete all the ext4 files that use extentsSep 04 04:10
DaemonFCand since that's every file on my disk, that's not gonna happenSep 04 04:10
oiaohmstefan_:  what google does keeps there staff turn over low.Sep 04 04:11
DaemonFCI was talking with Eric Sandeen at Red Hat about Ext4 at one pointSep 04 04:12
DaemonFChe said it would be easier to reformat a volume as ext3 than to try to mount an ext4 volume as ext3Sep 04 04:12
DaemonFCheheSep 04 04:12
stefan_so it is paying their employees in order for them to exercise their hobbies, so they don't quit?Sep 04 04:12
oiaohmIt also turns out some of there hobbies have been very productive.Sep 04 04:13
oiaohmThat a normal management would have refused them from doing.Sep 04 04:13
stefan_allright. it indeed just doesn't seem like something a regular company would doSep 04 04:13
oiaohmGoogle is not a regular company.Sep 04 04:13
stefan_so it seems! :PSep 04 04:14
oiaohmIBM does some of the same but it is kind management approved R&DSep 04 04:14
oiaohmIts partly where the stack of junk comes from in the Foss world.Sep 04 04:14
oiaohmPeople are free to try stuff when they get bored with it they leave it to die.Sep 04 04:15
oiaohmFoss is very darwin like that.Sep 04 04:15
oiaohmOver time the strongest live the weakest disappear.Sep 04 04:16
Chipssince the source is out there, someone can always pick it up and run with it years laterSep 04 04:16
sebsebseboiaohm: yepSep 04 04:16
oiaohmnot always ChipsSep 04 04:16
oiaohmSometimes the source disappears because servers die and the like.Sep 04 04:17
Chipstry that with closed sourceSep 04 04:17
oiaohmThere are projects disappearing from the foss world dayly.Sep 04 04:17
stefan_Chips, that is indeed a very romantic idea/reality, but I doubt that those software packages will be picked up by the general (ubuntu) publicSep 04 04:17
sebsebseboiaohm: :(Sep 04 04:17
Chipsyes, but less than closed sourceSep 04 04:17
oiaohmMore ChipsSep 04 04:17
oiaohmmostly stuff people have never heard of.Sep 04 04:18
oiaohmLike the exfat proto driver for the Linux kernel.Sep 04 04:18
sebsebsebstefan_: Ubuntu, Ubuntu, Ubuntu, Ubuntu,  opensource/freesoftware is so much more than just Ubuntu, same thing for   Desktop LinuxSep 04 04:18
oiaohmIts almost completely vaporised.Sep 04 04:18
oiaohmWithout a trace.Sep 04 04:18
Chipsif it ended up in a distro, it most likely is still availableSep 04 04:18
oiaohmNot eveyrthing makes it that far ChipsSep 04 04:18
stefan_seb: yes, but isn't the idea the same?Sep 04 04:19
Chipsthink DebianSep 04 04:19
sebsebsebstefan_: well you keep on saying Ubuntu,   rather than saying Linux    or  GNU/Linux  which would be  somethingSep 04 04:19
Chipsthe better stuff usually doesSep 04 04:19
oiaohmSome of the general public do pick up projects.Sep 04 04:19
oiaohmstefan_:Sep 04 04:19
oiaohmppa archive is an examples of it.Sep 04 04:19
stefan_seb: would you disagree with me more if I had sais GNU/Linux ? ;-)Sep 04 04:19
stefan_*sais=saidSep 04 04:20
sebsebsebstefan_: also not all GNU/Linux distros  have  exactly the same programs by defaultSep 04 04:20
stefan_i knowSep 04 04:20
sebsebsebstefan_: and not even when it comes to the common onesSep 04 04:20
oiaohmThe hardest part for the encommics people looking at Foss is understanding that Junk is part of the process.Sep 04 04:21
oiaohmFoss is very much like people in a junk yard building useful items.Sep 04 04:21
twitterat this point, I'd say you came here to disagree.  it does not matter what anyone says.  -> stefan_: seb: would you disagree with me more if I had sais GNU/Linux ?Sep 04 04:21
stefan_doesn't the junk keep people from exploring FOSS?Sep 04 04:21
sebsebsebtwitter: who?Sep 04 04:22
oiaohmDevelopers trying to mean a dead line stefan_Sep 04 04:22
twitterapt:/ in konqueror rocks.Sep 04 04:22
oiaohmThe junk is handy stefan_Sep 04 04:22
twitterstefan is here to disagreeSep 04 04:22
stefan_no i'm not :)Sep 04 04:22
twitterwants to say free software sucks.Sep 04 04:22
oiaohmNow distributions are ment to source the junk from the good for end users.Sep 04 04:22
sebsebsebtwitter: he  came here to talk about the articleSep 04 04:23
oiaohmSome of them have not being doing what you call great jobs stefan_Sep 04 04:23
stefan_oiaohm, i can agree with that. but do they succeed?Sep 04 04:23
twitteryes, but he's running on and on.Sep 04 04:23
stefan_ah, you already answered my questionSep 04 04:23
twitterit's getting dull.Sep 04 04:23
stefan_I'm a bit drunk, does that count?Sep 04 04:23
sebsebsebtwitter: yeah  this stuff has been going on  for quite a whiel nowSep 04 04:23
oiaohmstefan_: does MS succeed at shipping a Working OS?Sep 04 04:24
twitterno, you might want to go sleep it off. -> stefan_: I'm a bit drunk, does that count?Sep 04 04:24
DaemonFCmy kernel is building :)Sep 04 04:24
oiaohmIts the same kind of question.Sep 04 04:24
sebsebsebtwitter: heh yeah it's  late/early where he isSep 04 04:24
stefan_I guess that for most users, it doesSep 04 04:24
ChipsOiaohm> not exactly sure what you mean by "Junk."  GNU/Linux had programs that were not mature years ago.  Some of those are still around, if that is what you mean by distro's sorting them out, i agree.  Also, by not mature, mostly they worked, many from the command line.  But most users need the guiSep 04 04:25
oiaohmSome do better than others stefan_ nothing is perfect no matter how much testing some crap gets threw.Sep 04 04:25
sebsebsebstefan_: getting light there yet?Sep 04 04:25
_Hicham_DaemonFC : which kernel ?Sep 04 04:25
DaemonFC_Hicham_: 2.6.31-rc8-git2Sep 04 04:25
_Hicham_it is already in Fedora 12Sep 04 04:25
oiaohmChips: programs that don't run right any more but still have useful ideas in them or never run right.Sep 04 04:25
DaemonFCI stripped out a bunch of crap from Ubuntu's configuration that doesn't apply to my systemSep 04 04:25
oiaohmChips: ie junk of the Foss world.Sep 04 04:25
DaemonFCand applied the preemption optionsSep 04 04:26
twitterlight or dark, drunks are better off sleepingSep 04 04:26
stefan_aren't drunks better off twittering?:PSep 04 04:26
oiaohmBasically if it was real device what you would kinda expect to find in a scrap yard that might be reworkable into to something useful ChipsSep 04 04:26
twitternoSep 04 04:26
_Hicham_DaemonFC : how much time does it take you to build a kernel ?Sep 04 04:27
DaemonFCabout an hour or soSep 04 04:27
_Hicham_just an hour ?Sep 04 04:27
DaemonFCit's been a while, but about that, yeahSep 04 04:27
Chipsstefan_> I would be more interested in hearing about your experience as a new user of Ubuntu, since it replaced windows 3 years ago, than continuing the conversation which is exausted about where the money come from for FOSSSep 04 04:27
_Hicham_You must have a fast machineSep 04 04:27
DaemonFC2.33 Ghz Core 2 DuoSep 04 04:27
DaemonFC4 gigs RAMSep 04 04:27
DaemonFCI also prune a lot of drivers I don't needSep 04 04:28
oiaohmMy old system here that is from about 2004 can do a kernel build in 1 hour.Sep 04 04:28
DaemonFCif I build those it takes a lot longerSep 04 04:28
stefan_okay chips, ask a question then :-)Sep 04 04:28
oiaohmRam is kind key _Hicham_Sep 04 04:28
oiaohm4 gb is about the min to have it build in a reasonable ammount of time.Sep 04 04:29
DaemonFCoiaohm: according to the system monitor I'm only using about 690 megs of RAM right nowSep 04 04:29
Chipsstefan_> not really a question, more about your experience with it, if you like to share.  Which version are you using?Sep 04 04:29
DaemonFC4 gigs is pretty overkill for LinuxSep 04 04:29
DaemonFCI originally put it in to try to get Vista to move a little faster :)Sep 04 04:30
oiaohmI don't know why DaemonFCSep 04 04:30
ChipsDaemonFC> 4gigs depends what u doing with itSep 04 04:30
oiaohmIt only used upto about 1 gb building.Sep 04 04:30
oiaohmBut it is slower on less than 4Sep 04 04:30
stefan_Chips, I'm using 9.04, I started with 6.something and just upgraded as the new versions came alongSep 04 04:30
DaemonFCright now I have the kernel compiling, a few pidgin conversations open, xchat, Firefox, that's about itSep 04 04:30
oiaohmIts something in the memory allocaiton going on DaemonFCSep 04 04:30
DaemonFCactually it's using more RAM than I would otherwise need anyway cause I installed the preload daemonSep 04 04:31
oiaohmOne of those magical kernel gremilns.Sep 04 04:31
DaemonFCso that it would cache my most used programs like SuperfetchSep 04 04:31
stefan_I like the 'directness' of it. I used to question myself when I was using Windows (did I click wrong or is it taking a long time...)Sep 04 04:31
ChipsStefan_> so you like it, what where you main reasons for using Ubuntu over Windows?  Just curious.Sep 04 04:31
DaemonFCthat's one thing I do like about Windows, is that it learns what you do with it and after a while it already has it cached so there's almost no delay in opening itSep 04 04:32
DaemonFCbut how effective the cache is depends on how much RAM you haveSep 04 04:32
stefan_no blue screens, the system keeps functioning no matter how long the PC is workingSep 04 04:32
DaemonFC4 gigs, Superfetch works wellSep 04 04:32
ChipsDaemonFC>do you have KSysGuard (performance monitor) on your KDE distro?Sep 04 04:32
DaemonFCit's a better strategy than letting the RAM stay emptySep 04 04:33
stefan_I do not have much RAM, just 1GBSep 04 04:33
oiaohmAs long as you don't build something big like KDE that is fine stefan_Sep 04 04:33
Chipsstefan> agreedSep 04 04:33
DaemonFCwith about this kind of workload running, Vista would be using about 35% of my RAM about nowSep 04 04:33
oiaohmKDE is shocking on by by ram.Sep 04 04:33
DaemonFCWindows 7 would be using about 28-29%Sep 04 04:33
oiaohmto build.Sep 04 04:34
DaemonFCin GNOME on Linux right now it has about 18% filledSep 04 04:34
DaemonFCthat's with the compile running tooSep 04 04:34
DaemonFCso say 13-14% without the compile runningSep 04 04:34
_Hicham_which gnome version is this ?Sep 04 04:34
oiaohmLinux runs quite well most cases with 512 megs of ram.Sep 04 04:34
DaemonFCso it's fair to say that a Linux system uses a few hundred megs less RAM than VistaSep 04 04:34
stefan_I was always arguing wuth windows over 'who has the control'. Windows gives you a mouse pointer when it still has a lot of work to do on loading the programs that start up when windows starts. Ubuntu only gives you control over mouse and keyboard when it is done starting upSep 04 04:34
DaemonFCyou'll notice the savings more if you have 2 gigs or lessSep 04 04:35
stefan_Waiting fo a minute or so before the start menu appears is very annoying:PSep 04 04:35
Chipsthe most ram I ever seen Linux use (measured by Ksysguard) was on someones HP dual core with 8gb, ripping a dsk.  its ran circles around Vista with the same software running in WineSep 04 04:35
DaemonFCstefan_: I've never had that problemSep 04 04:35
oiaohm1 gb ram vista DaemonFCSep 04 04:36
DaemonFCand by a few hundred megs less than Vista, I mean with a full desktop environment like KDE or GNOMESep 04 04:36
stefan_I guess I get more blue screens than my roommates do...Sep 04 04:36
DaemonFCyou could save a couple hundred more megs with LXDE or XFCESep 04 04:36
DaemonFCpotentiallySep 04 04:36
ChipsIceWMSep 04 04:36
ChipsFluxboxSep 04 04:36
DaemonFCI've noticed that LXDE is far more efficient than XFCESep 04 04:36
oiaohmI have had vista shut it self down due to out of ram with 512 megs of ram.Sep 04 04:36
stefan_Other than problems with windows, I really like some of the interface stuff that ubuntu hasSep 04 04:36
stefan_very intuitiveSep 04 04:36
DaemonFCLXDE is really where you want to be if you have limited resourcesSep 04 04:37
DaemonFC<1 gigSep 04 04:37
stefan_and, I was impressed by the Live session stuffSep 04 04:37
DaemonFCover 1 gig, and you may want to consider GNOME or KDESep 04 04:37
DaemonFCI still refuse in total the argument that GNOME is useful with 512 megsSep 04 04:37
ChipsI was impressed with no malware compared to windowsSep 04 04:38
DaemonFCbecause I've used it like thatSep 04 04:38
DaemonFCit boots up, it works, but it's slow as molassesSep 04 04:38
sebsebsebChips: well there is some for LinuxSep 04 04:38
ChipsGnome does take more resourcesSep 04 04:38
stefan_yes Chips, I never encountered any viruses or ad/malware with linuxSep 04 04:38
oiaohmsebsebseb:  insanely rare.Sep 04 04:38
DaemonFCI've considered doctoring up my laptop with a lightweight environment cause it only has a gig of RAMSep 04 04:38
sebsebsebChips: ,but  will it work with modern distros is a question, and   you would have to have rather bad security,  and for someone to crack you and then to put some on or something to get some on there, or install yourself with you knowing what your doingSep 04 04:39
DaemonFCI was considering giving it to my motherSep 04 04:39
sebsebsebChips: to  get  on thereSep 04 04:39
Chipssebsebseb>yes, but the morris worm, is not in the wild.  There is an ODF trojan I think, so I don't download ODF filesSep 04 04:39
DaemonFCI'll probably lob Fedora with LXDE on it or somethingSep 04 04:39
DaemonFCnew kernel and X are essential since ATI abandoned that chipset that's in itSep 04 04:40
oiaohmODF trojan does not work unless you say yes to Macros.Sep 04 04:40
DaemonFCthe driver is the only thing that works at all nowSep 04 04:40
oiaohmAnd Openoffice is good that way it never does.Sep 04 04:40
DaemonFCthe laptop was designed around XP, you can tell thatSep 04 04:40
stefan_One thing I don't like about Ubuntu now, is every now and again there is some hassle with audio or video codecsSep 04 04:40
oiaohmChips: its also insanely rare only heard of 3 reports in the last 2 yearsSep 04 04:40
stefan_and some flash websites don't work very well. I know that flash is an ugly way of putting video and audio on websites, but it is there, so there has to be some solution for itSep 04 04:41
ChipsDaemonFC> most distro's let you install as many windows managers as you like, and you select the one you like at log in.  This is useful, as some of the min WM's are not full functional, and you will have to use KDE or Gnome sometimesSep 04 04:41
sebsebsebstefan_: well the Ubuntu help channal can help with stuff like that, probablySep 04 04:42
DaemonFCwell, you can install GNOME or KDE apps without GNOME or KDESep 04 04:42
oiaohmstefan_: some of the flash sites are adobe flash plugin problems.Sep 04 04:42
DaemonFCI generally use GNOME apps in LXDE because that spares me from having to load QT and KDE libsSep 04 04:42
oiaohmNice bit stefan_ you are not above having them even on windows.Sep 04 04:42
DaemonFCthe whole point of minimizing resource use is blown when you have to load two GUI toolkitsSep 04 04:42
stefan_oiaohm, I understand the words, but not the sentence...Sep 04 04:43
Chipsoiaohm> Chips: its also insanely rare only heard of 3 reports in the last 2 years"  AGREED, its so rare, I would think you would have to work at it.  also, running as root would help if you really want malware.  But even so, you probably could, not recommendedSep 04 04:43
oiaohmFlash issues happen even with windows.Sep 04 04:43
*alienjeff (n=alienjef@unaffiliated/alienjeff) has joined #boycottnovellSep 04 04:43
sebsebsebDaemonFC: I use Gnome with  KDE  apps sometimes,  and right now  Ubuntu  9.10  development version yeah, with this  KDE  4   version of Konversation,  before that it would be the KDE 3 one  in  UbuntuSep 04 04:43
stefan_Flash, basically, should just die.Sep 04 04:43
sebsebsebDaemonFC: yeah Konversation is my IRC client, and that's been quite a while nowSep 04 04:44
oiaohmLot of sites broke after the recient secuirty update to flash that were playing up on Linux stefan_Sep 04 04:44
DaemonFCwell, I'm talking on systems where a 10-15 extra megs of RAM used could be the difference between SWAP thrashingSep 04 04:44
sebsebsebI am thinking about eventaully going IRSSI, but  that needs configuring to be a proper client hmmSep 04 04:44
DaemonFCon a beefier system, I agree that sometimes it's convenient to mix applicationsSep 04 04:44
ChipsI have never trusted flash, so I run flashblock extension.Sep 04 04:45
stefan_yes Chips, browsing is a lot more comfortable with flashblock :)Sep 04 04:45
oiaohmI don't trust a lot fo windows coders.Sep 04 04:45
balzac windows is going down!Sep 04 04:46
oiaohmOnly group of coders I have ment that have a large number who think expoiting a security flaw in OS for application performance is a good thing.Sep 04 04:46
balzacoiaohm: might as well, since windows is one big black boxSep 04 04:46
balzacyou're on your own as an application developer for windowsSep 04 04:46
oiaohmLinux world is different.Sep 04 04:47
balzacno kiddingSep 04 04:47
oiaohmMS then ends up not patching the secuirty flaw because it will break applications.Sep 04 04:47
stefan_but still, when browsing the internet in windows, you can have a lot more tabs with flash at the same time, without noticing any performance issues, than when you have that same amount of tabs with flash when using linux.Sep 04 04:47
balzacsebsebseb: irssi is niceSep 04 04:47
balzacwhat are you using?Sep 04 04:47
DaemonFCWine 1.1.29 packages are available for UbuntuSep 04 04:47
oiaohmFirefox don't run that great under Linux stefan_Sep 04 04:47
stefan_oiaohm, do you have an alternatice?Sep 04 04:48
oiaohmIts one of my pet annoyances.Sep 04 04:48
stefan_(with a v)Sep 04 04:48
balzacoiaohm: it's the best for web developersSep 04 04:48
alienjeffstefan_:  Just what the world needs: millions of computer users with more browser tabs with FlashSep 04 04:48
balzacand it's also the one which will break flash's monopoly on web videoSep 04 04:48
oiaohmNot somethign I would suggest to you stefan_Sep 04 04:48
oiaohmI rebuilt my firefox myself patching a few things.Sep 04 04:48
stefan_lol, I am too dumb? :PSep 04 04:48
balzaci was happy for flash to drive out windows media, quicktime, and real playerSep 04 04:49
oiaohmSo removing a few of the problems stefan_Sep 04 04:49
DaemonFCpeople that use Windows are not all bad, people that advocate it like Paul Thurrott are moral pygmiesSep 04 04:49
balzacbut now it's time for firefox with ogg theoraSep 04 04:49
stefan_balzac, that is just company bashingSep 04 04:49
balzacwhat?Sep 04 04:49
balzacproprietary software company bashingSep 04 04:49
balzaci'm not indiscriminantSep 04 04:49
stefan_yesSep 04 04:49
ChipsI probably shouldn't say this, but I really want MS to fix its Windows security the best possible before it goes away forever.   As there will be those who will never move to better alternatives.Sep 04 04:50
DaemonFCChips: ReactOS may go somewhere somedaySep 04 04:50
DaemonFCit's stated goals include driver compatibility with WindowsSep 04 04:50
balzacwindows, the brand may not go away forever for a very long time, but they will lose their monopoly relatively soonSep 04 04:50
ChipsmaybeSep 04 04:50
alienjeffstefan_:  Ah, so by that rationale, if a pig had a better personality, he would cease to be a filthy animal. Is that true?Sep 04 04:50
oiaohmThen we have the insanish LUK project.Sep 04 04:50
_Hicham_no, ReactOS won't go anywhereSep 04 04:50
oiaohmReactOS may be the next freedos.Sep 04 04:51
oiaohmPeople said people would remain with dos as well.Sep 04 04:51
DaemonFC_Hicham_: I really hate people that bag on ReactOS for cloning WindowsSep 04 04:51
oiaohmThey are gone.Sep 04 04:51
alienjeffHow long has ReactOS been in dev?Sep 04 04:51
stefan_this is what I don't get: virtually everyone knows that microsoft has major security issues, yet microsoft doesn't fix that, but does implement a "feature" that when you click 'search', you get to see an animated dog...Sep 04 04:51
DaemonFCLinux cloned AT&T UNIX which was the Windows of that timeSep 04 04:51
oiaohmOver 10 years alienjeffSep 04 04:52
oiaohmLets put it this way reversing windows is not simple.Sep 04 04:52
stefan_alienjeff: i can't say, I like mud :PSep 04 04:52
alienjeff10 years and no RCSep 04 04:52
alienjeff...let alone stable.Sep 04 04:52
alienjeffThat's rather sad.Sep 04 04:52
DaemonFCoiaohm: ReactOS releases are getting more predictableSep 04 04:52
_Hicham_They can't go anywhereSep 04 04:53
oiaohmWine took over 8 to make its first kind of release alienjeffSep 04 04:53
balzacdon't forget about GNU HurdSep 04 04:53
_Hicham_MS is just letting them waste some timeSep 04 04:53
Chipsoiaohm> People said people would remain with dos as well."  This is true, I resisted for a long time.  But I do see users that I think will never switch, I could be wrongSep 04 04:53
DaemonFCwell, GNU started out in 1984Sep 04 04:53
_Hicham_when they will a real threat , they will sue themSep 04 04:53
alienjeffIt's no coincidence that "Hurd" rhymes with "turd."Sep 04 04:53
DaemonFCso you could say that it took them + Linux about 20 years to run on most off the shelf systemsSep 04 04:53
_Hicham_GNU is differentSep 04 04:53
balzacyes it is, alienjeffSep 04 04:53
alienjeff;)Sep 04 04:53
stefan_I don't care if reversing windows is nto simple. If one company has the financial resources rebuild it from the start, it is microsoft...Sep 04 04:53
oiaohmHurd means something its a coincidence.Sep 04 04:54
_Hicham_there is a hurd implementation by debianSep 04 04:54
balzacRMS proposed some good ideas for improving the ancient design of the *nix style OSSep 04 04:54
oiaohmLucky coincidence really alienjeffSep 04 04:54
DaemonFCnew ReactOS releases are coming every 2-3 months nowSep 04 04:54
DaemonFCused to take over a yearSep 04 04:54
DaemonFCso I think it's getting betterSep 04 04:54
_Hicham_RMS proposal wasn't successfulSep 04 04:54
oiaohmHurd is an example of micro kernel designes night mares.Sep 04 04:54
balzacthe problem is, the world is filled with dummies who don't respect the eldersSep 04 04:54
oiaohmA OS that cannot crash.Sep 04 04:54
_Hicham_DaemonFC : did you use latest ReactOS ?Sep 04 04:54
cubezzz-laptopwhat is so bad about Hurd?Sep 04 04:54
oiaohmAnyone want that.Sep 04 04:54
oiaohmBecause that is HurdSep 04 04:55
DaemonFC_Hicham_: Last I used was 0.3.4Sep 04 04:55
oiaohmIt keeps on restarting its drivers.Sep 04 04:55
DaemonFCthey're on 0.3.10 nowSep 04 04:55
oiaohmNot crashed but no cpu time to do anything else cubezzz-laptopSep 04 04:55
balzacHurd sounds pretty wicked to meSep 04 04:55
DaemonFCthat represents about a year and a half of workSep 04 04:55
_Hicham_wowSep 04 04:55
oiaohmAnd due to not stoping very hard to work out what started the screw up.Sep 04 04:55
_Hicham_a year and a half for nothingSep 04 04:55
DaemonFC_Hicham_: And even if they never product a Windows clone, they do submit patches to WineSep 04 04:56
DaemonFCso it's not like it was all for nothingSep 04 04:56
oiaohmI am concerend about Reactos feature.Sep 04 04:56
DaemonFC*produceSep 04 04:56
oiaohmfutureSep 04 04:56
balzacoiaohm: I think you're misrepresenting the HurdSep 04 04:56
_Hicham_I think those people should focus on making good software for LinuxSep 04 04:56
balzacThere's the initial stages of development, and then there's the blue-print for what it's supposed to beSep 04 04:56
DaemonFC_Hicham_: Why do you care what they work on?Sep 04 04:56
oiaohmbalzac: what I represented is why it took so long to develop and is still a bugger at times balzacSep 04 04:56
DaemonFCis it you doing the work?Sep 04 04:56
balzaca development snapshot shouldn't be used to judge the whole conceptSep 04 04:56
_Hicham_DaemonFC : I feel the work they are doingSep 04 04:57
ChipsDaemonFC> new ReactOS releases are coming every 2-3 months now"  Problem I see with ReactOS is its based on Wine.  Since its a standalone OS, it needs some kind of user account system, or if it ever becomes popular it could just end up being another malware target is my fear.  btw, i usually download ReactOS and run it in VirtualboxSep 04 04:57
oiaohmIf hurd can be got working perfect it will be a great OS.Sep 04 04:57
DaemonFCmaybe they're just doing it for fun, maybe they do make a better Linux by working on WineSep 04 04:57
oiaohmI am worried about reactos future.Sep 04 04:57
DaemonFCyou know that Wine makes Linux migration more attractiveSep 04 04:57
DaemonFCsince you don't have to abandon all your softwareSep 04 04:57
oiaohmBy the time it gets to market it might be pointless.Sep 04 04:58
balzacoiaohm: I agree. I'm not knowledgeable enough to say how it works, but you know the concept isn't to have something that's badSep 04 04:58
balzacit's to have something more modular and advancedSep 04 04:58
balzacmore usefulSep 04 04:58
DaemonFCbalzac: They can deviate from the way Windows is implementedSep 04 04:58
_Hicham_playing catchup with Windows apps isn't sthg funnySep 04 04:58
oiaohmbalzac: concept good. making concept work and be debugable down right mungle from hellSep 04 04:58
DaemonFCthey can do some things betterSep 04 04:58
balzacmultiple kernel instances, from which you can debug other running kernelsSep 04 04:58
DaemonFCbesides, the basic Win32 API hasn't changed much in yearsSep 04 04:59
balzacoiaohm: yeah, it's hard as hell, especially since the chip makers don't give a hoot about the HurdSep 04 04:59
DaemonFCby the time they get up to Windows 2000-level compatibility, they already will run more than 95% of the Windows programs out thereSep 04 04:59
balzacthe chip makers dumped all their code into the linux projectSep 04 04:59
balzacit's okSep 04 04:59
oiaohmDaemonFC: Risk is by the time Reactos lands MS will be pushing on with .netSep 04 04:59
balzaclinux is based on the tried and true unix design, which the industry was ready to put their investment intoSep 04 04:59
DaemonFCoiaohm: I doubt itSep 04 05:00
oiaohmSo reactos becomes another freedos.Sep 04 05:00
balzachurd was more R&D, un-testedSep 04 05:00
DaemonFCMicrosoft has been trying to sell .Net since right after XP came outSep 04 05:00
DaemonFCthere's still almost no programs using itSep 04 05:00
DaemonFCand ReactOS does have MonoSep 04 05:00
ChipsI too worry about the future of ReactOS, they did good on the effort to check all their code did not contain MS stuff.  Cause I think that MS stategy is to go after the weak ones.  Weak by way of funding, and ReactOS would be a way for M$ to indirectly go after WineSep 04 05:00
balzacIt's because RMS is a true computer enthusiast who's always trying to take it to the highest level, he's not a corporate hack trying to ramp up a big business.Sep 04 05:00
oiaohmAlso people are running more standard software these days as well.Sep 04 05:01
DaemonFCChips: Microsoft can't sue you for reimplementing Win32Sep 04 05:01
oiaohmVendor locking is becoming less important.Sep 04 05:01
DaemonFCthey could sue you if you ripped off their code somehowSep 04 05:01
balzacDaemonFC: that won't stop them if they think they can ruin your daySep 04 05:01
DaemonFCif they could sue for Win32, they would have taken out Wine years agoSep 04 05:01
oiaohmNo DaemonFCSep 04 05:02
oiaohmMS need wine to keep USA regulators off back.Sep 04 05:02
_Hicham_Wine is another thingSep 04 05:02
DaemonFCthe law, even in the US, is on Wine's sideSep 04 05:02
_Hicham_yesSep 04 05:02
oiaohmThey use to pull it out as a show pony.Sep 04 05:02
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oiaohmReactos on the other hand no such reason.Sep 04 05:03
DaemonFCI still think they're safeSep 04 05:03
_Hicham_no, they are notSep 04 05:03
ChipsDaemonFC> Chips: Microsoft can't sue you for reimplementing Win32"  They could try, but you can't get blood out of a stone.  But instead of me they could try to sue ReactOS, and shut them down.  The fact that ReactOS spent all the time evaluating its code, would greatly help them in court I would thinkSep 04 05:03
_Hicham_they are playing with fireSep 04 05:03
oiaohmMy big issue is by the time Reactos gets to market the wold could change.Sep 04 05:03
oiaohmworld could change.Sep 04 05:04
oiaohmIts already show the signs of it.Sep 04 05:04
balzacI wouldn't bother with reactosSep 04 05:04
balzacI'm happy that it's a GPLed project, but I guess I don't see why I'd use it.Sep 04 05:04
balzacis it useable?Sep 04 05:04
_Hicham_I removed Wine from my machine long time agoSep 04 05:04
oiaohmWin32 comapdible is pointless of you don't have x86 hardware.Sep 04 05:04
DaemonFCbalzac: More of a curiousity still at this pointSep 04 05:05
balzaccan you run old windows apps on it?Sep 04 05:05
DaemonFCbalzac: Like I said, their patches flow back into WineSep 04 05:05
_Hicham_I installed ReactOS on a VMSep 04 05:05
oiaohmThis is the problem cpu market could segment so leaving reactos basically applicationless.Sep 04 05:05
balzacok, that's usefulSep 04 05:05
DaemonFCso a lot of their work gets recycled into WineSep 04 05:05
balzacnot to me, but useful to manySep 04 05:05
ChipsNet is going nowhere, its a flop already, its why MS wants us to have it, its an distraction.  A way to infect Linux, with many things.  Moonlight being one of themSep 04 05:05
_Hicham_ReactOS doesn't support Firefox-3.5 yetSep 04 05:06
balzacThere's a big company in IndiaSep 04 05:06
balzacthey have 50 PHP developers and 25 .net developersSep 04 05:06
balzacI wonder if that reflects relative marketshareSep 04 05:06
balzacalso, ASPX websites are lagging in technical featuresSep 04 05:06
_Hicham_php is having more market than .NETSep 04 05:06
balzacPHP is reigningSep 04 05:06
balzacyeahSep 04 05:06
balzacI wonder by how much it is the leaderSep 04 05:06
_Hicham_by so muchSep 04 05:07
DaemonFCevery aspx website I've seen has been some lagging Chinese website that throws errors like crazySep 04 05:07
_Hicham_it is so much ahead of aspSep 04 05:07
DaemonFCFoxconn's support website is one of themSep 04 05:07
balzacaspx is pewpSep 04 05:07
oiaohm  << I think not too well  balzacSep 04 05:07
_Hicham_some aspx site are IE onlySep 04 05:07
_Hicham_which is very frustratingSep 04 05:07
_Hicham_I can't wait for the day when IE will dieSep 04 05:08
_Hicham_die IE, dieSep 04 05:08
oiaohmI think it could be funny.Sep 04 05:08
oiaohmIn netcraft active site measure ment next month google could be ahead of MS.Sep 04 05:08
DaemonFCIE is more dangerous by itself than Windows isSep 04 05:09
ChipsIE6 will live on as long as pirated XPSep 04 05:09
oiaohmAnd by the start of next year MS could be less than over all.Sep 04 05:09
balzacoiaohm: Apache is kingSep 04 05:09
DaemonFCChips: There's no WGA check for IE 7 or 8Sep 04 05:09
DaemonFCeven systems that are pirated can install itSep 04 05:10
balzacnot news, but what happened in 2005?Sep 04 05:10
_Hicham_there is WGA for IE7Sep 04 05:10
DaemonFCMicrosoft is that desperate to try to spread itSep 04 05:10
DaemonFCnoSep 04 05:10
_Hicham_no WGA check for IE8Sep 04 05:10
oiaohmMS released .net and marketed it hard balzacSep 04 05:10
DaemonFCthey removed the WGA check for IE 7 and there never was one in IE 8Sep 04 05:10
balzacapache was doing a lot better, then by 2007, MS was feeling a bit optimisticSep 04 05:10
balzacnow MS is trending downward again and apache is going back upSep 04 05:10
balzacoiaohm: icSep 04 05:10
oiaohmNot only going down.Sep 04 05:10
balzacthen they ran out of money, i guessSep 04 05:11
oiaohmBleeding sites at an extream rate of nots.Sep 04 05:11
Chipsyour point DaemonFC?  Do you really thing most pirates are going use wsusSep 04 05:11
DaemonFCMicrosoft saw that the WGA check in IE 7 was driving more people to FirefoxSep 04 05:11
DaemonFCso they got rid of itSep 04 05:11
oiaohmOver 6 million a month balzacSep 04 05:11
oiaohmappache just took a hit this month.Sep 04 05:11
oiaohmMost cases apaches numbers have been just going up.Sep 04 05:11
oiaohmSame with everyone elses.Sep 04 05:11
oiaohmMS is the only one with declining numbers in a big way.Sep 04 05:12
balzacwho is getting any market share from apache?Sep 04 05:12
_Hicham_Microsoft is sponsoring ApacheSep 04 05:12
Chipspirated xp will have to be reinstalled more and more often once support is goneSep 04 05:12
_Hicham_it is a gold sponsor in factSep 04 05:12
balzacMicrosoft is trying to get a foot-hold with apache and linuxSep 04 05:12
Chipsand default on those dsks install IE6Sep 04 05:12
oiaohmThat is the strange thing it appears to be going no where balzacSep 04 05:12
balzacyeah, but MS is one of many, because Apache isn't going to let one single company be their sugar-daddy, especially not MSSep 04 05:12
_Hicham_Microsoft will give users the choice to install a browserSep 04 05:13
balzacapache would get replaced by something else if they got too close to MSSep 04 05:13
oiaohmIts very much like the companies who were running Windows are going out of business balzacSep 04 05:13
_Hicham_it was forced to in EuropeSep 04 05:13
balzacand tribal chiefs might say "hey, quit using our name" if the software became unpopular and non-freeSep 04 05:13
_Hicham_I can't imagine Microsoft giving you a Windows CD with Firefox preinstalledSep 04 05:14
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balzacI gotta figure something out. bbiabSep 04 05:14
oiaohmLook at the active sites graphic balzac can you see something I cannot.  Its just like the sites vaporised.Sep 04 05:14
_Hicham_MS is losing server MarketSep 04 05:15
_Hicham_thanks to their policy in the marketSep 04 05:15
oiaohmIts not just losing market.Sep 04 05:15
oiaohmLosing market suggest someone else is picking it up _Hicham_Sep 04 05:15
balzacwow, tragic epilogue for microsoftSep 04 05:15
oiaohmThat is not happening.Sep 04 05:15
balzacthey went off a cliffSep 04 05:15
_Hicham_apache is taking it upSep 04 05:15
balzacgoogle might be getting a bitSep 04 05:16
balzacapache a little bit tooSep 04 05:16
oiaohmThere is not enough there.Sep 04 05:16
balzacbut microsoft bit the dirtSep 04 05:16
balzactrueSep 04 05:16
oiaohmYou add it up and it short.Sep 04 05:16
oiaohmSites are vaporising.Sep 04 05:16
_Hicham_oiaohm : maybe it is ConfickerSep 04 05:16
oiaohmQuestion is whos sites.Sep 04 05:16
_Hicham_sites have been knocked down by Conficker, that is itSep 04 05:17
twitterATT and iPhone suck. 04 05:17
twitterno tethering, no video phone.Sep 04 05:17
twitterlameSep 04 05:17
oiaohmConficker was months ago _Hicham_Sep 04 05:17
oiaohmYou would have expected signs before this.Sep 04 05:18
oiaohmScary if its Microsoft themselves.Sep 04 05:18
balzac'08;_Firefox_gain_the_most.htmSep 04 05:19
_Hicham_DaemonFC : explain your new theorySep 04 05:19
balzacmicrosoft is crying in the browser market and in the server marketSep 04 05:19
balzacsoon they'll be cryin' over lost OS market shareSep 04 05:20
balzacthen cryin' over lost revenueSep 04 05:20
balzacboo [giggity giggity giggity] hooSep 04 05:20
oiaohmLot of people are shock that IE had 90 percent market is heading quickly back to 50 percent.Sep 04 05:22
_Hicham_even if it is by default on WindowsSep 04 05:22
_Hicham_which is weirdSep 04 05:22
_Hicham_I see a lot of non techie people using FirefoxSep 04 05:23
_Hicham_well, personally when someone gives me his laptop to fix, first thing i do is install firefoxSep 04 05:23
oiaohmThat is what os going on.Sep 04 05:23
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oiaohmThe techs are overriding the preinstall status.Sep 04 05:24
_Hicham_Mr DaemonFC : booted with the new kernel ?Sep 04 05:24
DaemonFCwell, the kernel built but the 32-bit Nvidia modules don't like itSep 04 05:24
DaemonFCI may try again with 04 05:25
_Hicham_DaemonFC : you should recompile the modulesSep 04 05:25
oiaohmI find quite fine with NvidiaSep 04 05:25
_Hicham_oiaohm : do u have nvidia?Sep 04 05:25
oiaohmYepSep 04 05:25
oiaohmI will go ATI as soon as they have drivers I can depend on working by some means with decent performance.Sep 04 05:26
DaemonFCoiaohm: 04 05:26
_Hicham_DaemonFC : did u run ldconfig ?Sep 04 05:27
DaemonFCnever had to beforeSep 04 05:27
oiaohmOk that is strangeSep 04 05:27
DaemonFCprobably something wrong with the Nvidia packageSep 04 05:27
oiaohmWhat are you running DaemonFCSep 04 05:27
balzacwait until FF4 comes out in 2010 with the separate processes for each tabSep 04 05:27
oiaohmPlease don't be debian sid.Sep 04 05:28
balzacand the video performance smooths outSep 04 05:28
oiaohmbecause sid moved the 32 bit binary directory to standard.Sep 04 05:28
DaemonFCoiaohm: Linux ryan-desktop 2.6.31-rc8-git2-ryan1 #1 SMP PREEMPT Thu Sep 3 23:44:42 EDT 2009 x86_64 GNU/LinuxSep 04 05:28
balzacflash and MS will both be cryinSep 04 05:28
oiaohmYou have a 32 bit driver install problem DaemonFCSep 04 05:28
balzacand chrome won't have a big selling point firefox doesn't also haveSep 04 05:28
oiaohmWith a 64 bit kernel DaemonFCSep 04 05:28
DaemonFCyeah, it's never happenedSep 04 05:28
DaemonFCprobably something about the kernel has changed and the Nvidia installer doesn't support itSep 04 05:29
balzacadobe is pretty happy to have youtube relying on their technology, but adobe better adapt for the time when flash is not the standardSep 04 05:29
oiaohmOk you do have 32 bit lib support installed ?Sep 04 05:29
_Hicham_DaemonFC : you can create symlinksSep 04 05:29
_Hicham_that is the laziest solutionSep 04 05:29
balzacadobe should make nice with firefox and make GPL-licensed web dev tools for firefoxSep 04 05:29
oiaohmie /emul/ia32-linux exists ?Sep 04 05:29
oiaohmDaemonFC:Sep 04 05:29
balzacSVG animation and video to OGG TheoraSep 04 05:29
oiaohmI have done that to my self before.Sep 04 05:29
balzacAdobe should start giving code to Gimp tooSep 04 05:29
oiaohmNvidia complaining and the directory did not exist.Sep 04 05:30
DaemonFCit existsSep 04 05:30
oiaohmusr/lib in there existszSep 04 05:30
_Hicham_and libGL exists ?Sep 04 05:30
DaemonFCyesSep 04 05:30
DaemonFCyesSep 04 05:30
_Hicham_in /emul/ia32-linux/usr/lib/ ?Sep 04 05:31
oiaohmls -l 04 05:31
DaemonFCit existsSep 04 05:31
oiaohmOk what is that point toSep 04 05:31
DaemonFClrwxrwxrwx 1 root root 18 2009-09-04 00:26 -> 04 05:32
oiaohmPossible the wrong version.Sep 04 05:32
oiaohmWhat version driver were you installing.Sep 04 05:32
DaemonFC185.18.36Sep 04 05:32
oiaohmSo its thereSep 04 05:33
DaemonFCwell, tell that to the Nvidia installerSep 04 05:33
DaemonFC:DSep 04 05:33
oiaohmldconfigSep 04 05:33
oiaohmand pray.Sep 04 05:33
_Hicham_DaemonFC : run ldconfig as rootSep 04 05:33
DaemonFCdoneSep 04 05:33
twitter***twitter reads about mach 04 05:33
DaemonFCnow what?Sep 04 05:34
_Hicham_re run the installerSep 04 05:34
oiaohmls -l 04 05:34
oiaohmalso existSep 04 05:34
oiaohmdon't be a link pointing to no where.Sep 04 05:34
twitter 04 05:34
DaemonFC-rwxr-xr-x 1 root root 618176 2009-09-04 00:26 04 05:34
DaemonFCI'll be back, see if the installer works nowSep 04 05:35
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oiaohmInteresting I don't ahve 04 05:36
oiaohmand I have the same version driver and it works.Sep 04 05:36
_Hicham_oiaohm : what distro are u on ?Sep 04 05:36
oiaohmdebian testing/sid/stableSep 04 05:36
oiaohmYes mutent beast.Sep 04 05:37
_Hicham_you don't have libGL at all ?Sep 04 05:37
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DaemonFCstill nothingSep 04 05:38
DaemonFCsame errorSep 04 05:38
_Hicham_I don't know, but you seem to have omitted sthg important in the kernel configSep 04 05:40
_Hicham_I don't like compiling kernels, but you should know what you are disabling in the config fileSep 04 05:40
DaemonFC 04 05:41
DaemonFC 04 05:42
DaemonFC 04 05:42
DaemonFCI'm going to unpack the installer and see what I can seeSep 04 05:43
DaemonFChmmm, I have an ideaSep 04 05:48
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DaemonFCgreat successSep 04 05:52
DaemonFC:)Sep 04 05:52
_Hicham_so u are having compiz now ?Sep 04 05:53
DaemonFCwell, now that I have a less buggy kernel, I may as well enable timer scheduling for PulseaudioSep 04 05:53
DaemonFC_Hicham_: The 64-bit driver was working fineSep 04 05:54
DaemonFCthe 32-bit compatibility path has changedSep 04 05:54
_Hicham_it is set to /usr/lib32Sep 04 05:54
_Hicham_that is what i knowSep 04 05:54
_Hicham_the emul path seemed strange to meSep 04 05:54
DaemonFCI uninstalled it then usedSep 04 05:55
DaemonFC./ --compat32-prefix=/usr --compat32-libdir=lib32 --compat32-chroot=Sep 04 05:55
twitternice.  KDE 4.2 has a check box for "read only mode."  uncheck it and you can edit documents opened with their kpart.  This makes Konqueror a universal editor as well as a universal browser.Sep 04 05:55
DaemonFCthe driver installer will probably be fixed eventually and that won't be necessarySep 04 05:55
_Hicham_greatSep 04 05:56
_Hicham_I was trying to install Fedora 12 today, but with no luckSep 04 05:56
_Hicham_the installer was crashingSep 04 05:56
DaemonFCbrbSep 04 05:56
_Hicham_okSep 04 05:56
DaemonFChave to log out and in for the new pulseaudio settings to kick inSep 04 05:57
DaemonFC:)Sep 04 05:57
DaemonFCGlitchFree :DSep 04 05:57
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DaemonFCmuch betterSep 04 05:58
DaemonFCI turned the tickless kernel option offSep 04 05:59
_Hicham_pulseaudio is already glitch free for meSep 04 05:59
DaemonFCtickless seems to cause problemsSep 04 05:59
DaemonFCchanged the timer frequency to 1000hzSep 04 06:00
DaemonFC:PSep 04 06:00
_Hicham_I used to have glitches on Fedora 10Sep 04 06:00
DaemonFCincredibly bad idea if you're on a laptop, but it'll give your kernel a nice swift kick in the ass as far as performance goes, on a desktop it's reasonableSep 04 06:00
_Hicham_but on Fedora 11, everything is perfectSep 04 06:01
DaemonFCI also used the full preemption options, for the RCU as wellSep 04 06:01
DaemonFCand optimized for Core 2 B-)Sep 04 06:01
_Hicham_was there any performace improvement ?Sep 04 06:02
DaemonFCnoticeable improvementSep 04 06:02
DaemonFCmuch more responsiveSep 04 06:03
_Hicham_what kernel were u using before ?Sep 04 06:03
DaemonFCthe 2.6.28-based kernel from JauntySep 04 06:03
_Hicham_i seeSep 04 06:04
_Hicham_that is why you are feeling the differenceSep 04 06:05
_Hicham_kernel 2.6.31 is already very fastSep 04 06:05
_Hicham_compared to old 2.6.28Sep 04 06:05
_Hicham_how does it compare with the stock kernel from karmic ?Sep 04 06:05
DaemonFCI've used Karmic, it wasn't all that fastSep 04 06:09
DaemonFCand apps tend to crash randomlySep 04 06:09
DaemonFCit's totally unstableSep 04 06:09
DaemonFCI'm pretty happy with the way this is turning outSep 04 06:10
DaemonFCmy Linux Mint setup that isSep 04 06:10
DaemonFC 04 06:10
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_Hicham_is this kernel stable ?Sep 04 06:14
seller_liarThanks roy for the awardSep 04 06:14
seller_liarBut I'm not a good specialist about these things.....Sep 04 06:15
seller_liarJoseX and twitter are great guysSep 04 06:15
_Hicham_ 04 06:15
_Hicham_a screenshot à la DaemonFCSep 04 06:15
DaemonFC 04 06:17
DaemonFC:)Sep 04 06:17
DaemonFC 04 06:19
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_Hicham_for how long will you stay on Mint ?Sep 04 06:19
DaemonFCprobably staying hereSep 04 06:19
_Hicham_i don't think that you will stay more than a weekSep 04 06:20
_Hicham_and go back to Windows for gamingSep 04 06:20
_Hicham_by the way I just penumbra game for linuxSep 04 06:20
_Hicham_it is just greatSep 04 06:21
_Hicham_you should try itSep 04 06:21
_Hicham_great framerate, great story, great game engine, never thought that i can play such games on LinuxSep 04 06:22
_Hicham_DaemonFC : still here ?Sep 04 06:24
DaemonFC_Hicham_: yesSep 04 06:24
DaemonFCsetting up OperaSep 04 06:24
_Hicham_is opera using qt4 ?Sep 04 06:25
DaemonFCthe beta and RC wasSep 04 06:25
DaemonFCthe final version isn'tSep 04 06:25
_Hicham_what is it using ?Sep 04 06:26
_Hicham_qt3?Sep 04 06:26
DaemonFCyesSep 04 06:26
_Hicham_it is badSep 04 06:26
_Hicham_qt4 has really great UISep 04 06:26
DaemonFCthe themes are the sameSep 04 06:26
DaemonFCI may get a desktop team build jsut to have qt 4 back thoughSep 04 06:27
_Hicham_Opera always lacked themesSep 04 06:27
DaemonFCyeah, I think I will actuallySep 04 06:28
_Hicham_do u think that it will go open source someday ?Sep 04 06:28
DaemonFCdoubt itSep 04 06:28
DaemonFCtheir business model depends on not releasing the sourceSep 04 06:29
DaemonFCbut at the same time, their engine is the most standards compliantSep 04 06:29
DaemonFCso it's not like staying closed source is an evil plot to rule the worldSep 04 06:29
DaemonFC_Hicham_: 04 06:32
DaemonFCthere's what it looks like with qt 4Sep 04 06:32
DaemonFCthe interface is also fasterSep 04 06:32
DaemonFC 04 06:34
DaemonFCthemes apply more cleanlySep 04 06:35
DaemonFCOpera Unite is a nice featureSep 04 06:36
DaemonFCdidn't make it into 10, but it's in the 10.1 weekly buildsSep 04 06:36
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__cmorning, all.  Anyone awake?Sep 04 06:49
__cI suppose it's polite to introduce myself.  I originally ran across, and was introduced to this whole "debate" (or, rather, this whole continual-sniping-at-each-other) between pro-Mono and anti-Mono people.Sep 04 06:51
__cFrom there, I discovered "boycottnovell", and a couple of attendant blogs.  Isn't the Interweb full of surprises.Sep 04 06:52
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__cNow, this whole "Boycott Novell" bunch seems to have gotten a bit of a reputation as being paranoid crazy-people.  I'd rather not take the word of others for it, so I've sort-of come to sit in and engage with y'all for a bit.  Perhaps the paranoid-crazy-zealot angle is overplayed.Sep 04 06:57
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__cAfter all, it's almost de jure to vilify the Other Side on the internet.Sep 04 07:00
__cSo, those are my biases, and my experiences.  Happy to make your collective acquaintance.Sep 04 07:01
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schestowitzHey, __c Sep 04 08:00
schestowitzSeems most folks are asleep, I've just awokenSep 04 08:01
schestowitzWell, characterisations against us are intended to squash messages, no matter the accuracy of predictions and observations, which are based on presented evidence (External links)Sep 04 08:02
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__cSeems mostly an opinion war to me, to tell you the truth.Sep 04 08:05
__cBut, let me sit in on a bit of the discussion, and see the quality there ;).  It is correctly said that the observer sees more of the game.Sep 04 08:07
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schestowitzThe reader may not see all that's know, so internal links are given in abundance too. Lacking compelling proof, there's room for comments (For more pointers)Sep 04 08:08
__cschestowitz: ? I don't understand your sentences.Sep 04 08:16
schestowitz__c: if you stick around your opinion may change over time. Some people here have been watching the events as they unfolded for years and they discuss observations openly.Sep 04 08:16
schestowitz__c: /s/know/known/Sep 04 08:16
__c"Locknig compelling proof, there's room for comments (For more pointers)"?Sep 04 08:16
__cs/Locknig/Lacking/Sep 04 08:17
schestowitzSometimes people might think, "this can't be true"Sep 04 08:17
schestowitzAbout say... pressure on OEMsSep 04 08:17
schestowitzA question can be raisedSep 04 08:17
schestowitzAnd then more articles pointed out to support  itSep 04 08:17
schestowitzpointer as in press release, article, quote, book reference, explanationSep 04 08:17
__cFair enough.  It's not the facts that are in question, as I see it.  It's the interpretation of those facts, which makes the whole thing into an opinion-fest.Sep 04 08:18
__cLet's take pressure on OEMs, though I'm unfamiliar with the incident in question.  Now, is such pressure not something that companies exert as a matter of course, due to market dominance or sales strategy or whatever?Sep 04 08:19
__cIf so, why attribute malicious motives to the company exerting the pressure?  It's just business.Sep 04 08:20
schestowitzNo, wait..Sep 04 08:20
schestowitz"We should whack them [Dell over GNU/Linux dealings], we should make sure they understand our value." --Paul Flessner, MicrosoftSep 04 08:21
schestowitzDOes that sounds like business as usual?Sep 04 08:21
schestowitzHow about this? "I’m thinking of hitting the OEMs harder than in the past with anti-Linux. ... they should do a delicate dance" --Joachim Kempin, Microsoft OEM ChiefSep 04 08:21
__cschestowitz: apparently, you don't sit in on many business meetings.  Yes, that is how business-people think, and how they speak.Sep 04 08:22
schestowitzBlackmail?Sep 04 08:22
schestowitzI doubt most people think along those linesSep 04 08:22
__cAlso, large companies aren't monolithic.  There's an OEM division, an Apps division, an OS division, a Dev division, R&D ...Sep 04 08:23
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schestowitzSure.Sep 04 08:23
__cEach of these will have their own budget, their own priorities, which may conflict with another division's.  I'm not surprised by Joachim's remark, and I fail to see what it has to do with anything.Sep 04 08:23
schestowitzIt's no exemption from ethics though.. and lawSep 04 08:23
schestowitz__c: Microsoft has a monopolySep 04 08:24
schestowitzIt cannot blackmail to maintain a monopolySep 04 08:24
schestowitzThe US DOJ agreesSep 04 08:24
schestowitzIt decided to break Microsoft apartSep 04 08:24
schestowitzNever mind if Microsoft resorted to political activism to reverse/prevent thisSep 04 08:25
schestowitz 04 08:25
__cOK.  Then let the DoJ handle it, and decide on it.Sep 04 08:25
schestowitz 04 08:25
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__cI don't see why it's a matter of concern for Mono, or Linux, or even the rest of the world (which doesn't have to give two hoots about the DoJ)Sep 04 08:26
schestowitzDoJ material can be made more accessibleSep 04 08:26
__cschestowitz: but why bother?Sep 04 08:26
schestowitzIt can also be related to current (As in present) eventsSep 04 08:26
schestowitz__c: why bother to end slavery?Sep 04 08:27
*__c does a double-takeSep 04 08:27
schestowitz__c: why bother to treat women equally?Sep 04 08:27
__cSorry, "slavery"?Sep 04 08:27
schestowitzHey, why bother with democracy? :-)Sep 04 08:27
schestowitz__c: analogiesSep 04 08:27
__cCome on, this isn't a rights issue.Sep 04 08:28
schestowitzYou're saying, basically, that all intervention should be avoided.Sep 04 08:28
schestowitzLet the "smart people" deicdeSep 04 08:28
schestowitzLet the OEMs and their conspirators demand that we buy WIndows with each PC...Sep 04 08:28
__cNo, I'm saying that if the DoJ wants to prosecute, let them.  Fine.  If they don't, fine.Sep 04 08:28
schestowitzIs it wrong of me to want to use my OS of choice?Sep 04 08:28
schestowitzI don't understand youSep 04 08:29
schestowitzWho do you think DOS representedSep 04 08:29
schestowitz(hint; the name of the trial implies it)Sep 04 08:29
schestowitz*DOJSep 04 08:29
__cI'm saying that you should let market forces decide it.Sep 04 08:29
__cI can demand to buy a car without a steering wheel, that doesn't mean that anyone will sell me one.Sep 04 08:30
__cI can demand to buy a shocking-pink car, that doesn't mean the manufacturer will spraypaint it for me.Sep 04 08:30
schestowitz"market forces"?Sep 04 08:30
schestowitzAre you the "free market" types?Sep 04 08:30
__cschestowitz: I support limited intervention, but this goes way beyond limited.Sep 04 08:31
schestowitzThanks for another straw man with car analogySep 04 08:31
schestowitzI'm not asking for a wheelSep 04 08:31
schestowitzWIndows on PCs = no ability to install OS of choice, which would be simple; one single choice for all PCsSep 04 08:31
schestowitzYour analogy would work if company KORB INDUSTRIES made ALL the wheels for ALL cars in the worldSep 04 08:32
cubezzzimagine if every grocery store in the world had coke, but you wanted a pepsi :)Sep 04 08:32
schestowitzANd if one could never ever install an OSSep 04 08:32
__cschestowitz: I've been installing various Unices on PCs for the past decade or more.  You want to see hardware control, you should look at a Mac.Sep 04 08:32
schestowitzPeople can install PCLOS, they can't install wheelsSep 04 08:32
schestowitzI'm noit interested in MacsSep 04 08:33
schestowitzThey are a small minoritySep 04 08:33
schestowitzHad Macs been actually used by many people, that too would become an idssueSep 04 08:33
__cOn PCs, there's plenty of choice.  I come from a Slackware heritage myself.Sep 04 08:33
schestowitzThey are a minuscule minority at a global scaleSep 04 08:33
cubezzzThere used to be choices, if you're old enough to rememberSep 04 08:34
schestowitzMacs are memorablia cars some rich people would pat premium for even if the cars are semi-operationalSep 04 08:34
cubezzzno longerSep 04 08:34
cubezzzyou can't go to the store and get a computer with slackSep 04 08:34
schestowitzNot even for a reasonable priceSep 04 08:35
schestowitzThe Russian Antimonopoly Agency is invetigating tooSep 04 08:35
schestowitzIt's querying OEMs and MicrosoftSep 04 08:35
schestowitzFor tying that's illegalSep 04 08:35
__cschestowitz: I take your point that Windows is installed by default on most PCs.  Fair enough.  You should take my point that this does not preclude choice.  I can still install whatever I want on my PC.Sep 04 08:35
cubezzznot the point at allSep 04 08:35
cubezzzyou're still payin the windows taxSep 04 08:36
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__ccubezzz: and if you want to, you can go through the hassle of getting it refunded.  Or you can build by component.  Or you can buy from a mom-and-pop store that will custom-build for you.  Or you can get one with a free OS on it.  Or ...Sep 04 08:37
cubezzzright, you have to go through the hassle.. and it's BSSep 04 08:37
__ccubezzz: and what you call the "Windows tax" was, until quite recently, unavoidable from a supplier point of view.Sep 04 08:37
schestowitzThat's incorrectSep 04 08:38
schestowitzFactually incorrectSep 04 08:38
__cIt is?Sep 04 08:38
schestowitzWindows tax cannot even be refunded in most casesSep 04 08:38
schestowitzYes, it isSep 04 08:38
schestowitzYour claims do not agree with simle observationsSep 04 08:38
cubezzzthat's garbage anyway, I don't want to pay for windows periodSep 04 08:38
__cschestowitz: It's in their legal docs.  Whether you can do it or not is a matter of country, OEM agreements, etc.Sep 04 08:38
schestowitzNopeSep 04 08:38
schestowitzTell Acer about itSep 04 08:38
schestowitzAnd refund is not choiceSep 04 08:39
schestowitzIf I offer my clients the ability to return to store and replace Cola withn Pepsi, that's not choiceSep 04 08:39
schestowitzThat's force-feedingSep 04 08:39
cubezzzwell, if you beaked off about it for months, probably yes, you _could_ get a refund, but who wants to go through that?Sep 04 08:39
__cA quick Google-search for "windows refund" seems to throw up plenty of links that tell you how to go about it.  It seems legal.Sep 04 08:39
schestowitzPeople need to have Pepsi on the shelfSep 04 08:39
PetoKraus__c, the question is, how many people succeedSep 04 08:39
schestowitzEsp. when one company bullies to get 90% market share strangeleholdSep 04 08:39
cubezzzIt's all about choices we don't haveSep 04 08:39
PetoKrausretailers are cuntsSep 04 08:39
__cschestowitz, cubezzz: OK, OK.  So go and build it by component, then.Sep 04 08:40
PetoKrausi know, i work for oneSep 04 08:40
__cThen you won't pay anything to Microsoft.Sep 04 08:40
cubezzz__c, I've been doing that for 20 yearsSep 04 08:40
__ccubezzz: seems to me that you've had plenty of choice, then.Sep 04 08:40
PetoKrausdesktops make sense only by component anyway, IMHOSep 04 08:40
cubezzzand I still want to be able to go to the store and see more choicesSep 04 08:40
PetoKrausfor home use, that isSep 04 08:40
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[popey] Teddys picnic on lounge floor with Sophie (5). I said I wanted tea. Sophie said 'We have beer if you want?'. Bit early I think.Sep 04 08:42
cubezzzI go to whatever store, pick _any_ store, and I don't see my OS of choice, I don't see blank, I see windows tax PCs onlySep 04 08:42
schestowitzppeals Court Upholds Online Gambling Ban 04 08:42
schestowitz<__c> schestowitz, cubezzz: OK, OK.  So go and build it by component, then.Sep 04 08:42
__cLet me try to portray it from a supplier PoV.  You are in the hardware business, you assemble machines.  The less you have to spend on OS, the better -- and OS includes support calls.  Standardising on something other than Windows hasn't been an option until quite recently.  So, from their PoV, Windows makes a lot of sense.  This is called market forces.Sep 04 08:42
schestowitz<__c> schestowitz, cubezzz: OK, OK.  So go and build it by component, then.Sep 04 08:42
schestowitzWhat, a car?Sep 04 08:42
__cschestowitz: no, a PC ;).Sep 04 08:42
schestowitzHaSep 04 08:42
schestowitzGood luck building your own laptop, tooSep 04 08:43
schestowitzThat's why Russian investigatesSep 04 08:43
__cschestowitz: again, market forces.  You can get a Linux eeePC, though, I think.Sep 04 08:43
cubezzz20 years ago.... totally different story to todaySep 04 08:43
schestowitzForces as in forcing OEMsSep 04 08:44
schestowitzThis was preovenSep 04 08:44
cubezzzthere was Amiga, Tandy, a ton of choicesSep 04 08:44
schestowitzMicrosoft pressured and bribed OEMs to remove choiceSep 04 08:44
schestowitzThere are antimonopooly rules, you know?Sep 04 08:44
schestowitzEver heard of standard oil:?Sep 04 08:44
cubezzzanyway... two words for you __c, Standard OilSep 04 08:44
schestowitzBeat meSep 04 08:44
schestowitzAlmostSep 04 08:44
__cschestowitz: OK, fine, let the DoJ sort it out, then.  I don't see why I should care.Sep 04 08:44
cubezzz19th century monopoly, it was broken upSep 04 08:44
cubezzzpffffft :)Sep 04 08:45
cubezzzanyways :)Sep 04 08:45
schestowitz__c: good for you. Wait for DOJSep 04 08:45
schestowitzLet others do the workSep 04 08:45
__cIf they've crossed the legal line, let them pay, and more power to the DoJ.Sep 04 08:45
schestowitzJust don't ridicule them for itSep 04 08:45
cubezzzthings could be worse I guessSep 04 08:45
schestowitzLike Torvalds' ignorance re: rightsSep 04 08:45
__cschestowitz: "Let others do the work" -- first, I'm not ridiculing them.  I support the DoJ in such a matter.  And secondly, what do you think I could do?  Start an Online Petition?  I'm not even an American!Sep 04 08:46
schestowitzHow to build cheap cloud storage < >Sep 04 08:46
cubezzzright, I can build a white box pc, but a PDA, or a laptop, much more difficultSep 04 08:46
schestowitzcubezzz: few people can build and assemble a PCSep 04 08:46
cubezzzI'm not American, neither is schestowitz :)Sep 04 08:46
schestowitzMicrosoft relies on inconvenienceSep 04 08:46
__ccubezzz: you can demand, but the supplier doesn't have to listen to you.  It's a free market :).Sep 04 08:47
schestowitzIT's like the stuff they do in academic placeSep 04 08:47
schestowitzCompus-wide licencesSep 04 08:47
schestowitzWhich means they charge everyone on campus no matter what s/w they useSep 04 08:47
cubezzzoh I can get itSep 04 08:47
schestowitzOne of the bigger scams out thereSep 04 08:47
cubezzzI have aleady got itSep 04 08:47
schestowitzRuled sort of illegal in NorwaySep 04 08:47
__cschestowitz: I like campus-wide licensing, when I was a student I took advantage of that ...Sep 04 08:47
cubezzzI got a Linux based PDA right hereSep 04 08:47
schestowitzLinpro won itSep 04 08:47
cubezzzdidn't buy it in a store thoughSep 04 08:47
schestowitz__c: that sounds moronicSep 04 08:48
schestowitzYou're not addressing the subjectSep 04 08:48
__cschestowitz: ... and what is the subject?Sep 04 08:48
schestowitzIt's not about you feeling OK with payingSep 04 08:48
schestowitzI's about those who pay for something they don't useSep 04 08:48
schestowitzSo again, straw manSep 04 08:48
cubezzzok, another example, a Phd student I know had to use Word 97, not just Word, it had to be Word 97!Sep 04 08:49
schestowitzbblSep 04 08:49
cubezzzotherwise he couldn't take the courseSep 04 08:49
cubezzztotal BS right?Sep 04 08:49
__cschestowitz: Let me see.  Ends up cheaper for the university to support, and cheaper for the student (who doesn't have to pay for it), and the loser is ... umm ... hold on, tip of my tongue ... who?Sep 04 08:49
__ccubezzz: that's university bureaucratese.  It's not Microsoft forcing them.Sep 04 08:50
cubezzzAcademia used to use *nix, don't know if they still do nowSep 04 08:50
__cI did my papers in LaTeX, at postgraduate level, and the university didn't mind at all.  For online submission, it makes sense to converge on a common format.Sep 04 08:51
cubezzzwell this guy was a History studentSep 04 08:54
cubezzzI sort of doubt History students use Latex, I could be wrongSep 04 08:55
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cubezzznow I'm thinking what the common format should beSep 04 08:55
cubezzzat one time, it could have been wordstar or WPSep 04 08:55
__ccubezzz: ancient history, man.  WP and WordStar just couldn't make the transition to GUI, and they died.  Simple as that.Sep 04 08:56
cubezzzI'm not defending wordstar or WP, I never even liked WP :)Sep 04 08:57
schestowitzInternet Radio Company Says Royalty Board Is Unconstitutional 04 08:57
schestowitzHunkering Down, Linux Style < > Still quoting the old shills "hairyfeet" and "drinkypoo" to counter Linux. What is this, reporting???????????Sep 04 08:57
schestowitz__c: read this: 04 08:57
schestowitzWhen done, return to arguingSep 04 08:57
schestowitzMicrosoft broke the law versus WPSep 04 08:58
schestowitzAnd the evidence is abundantSep 04 08:58
*__c goes to readSep 04 08:58
cubezzzI'm not even arguing reallySep 04 08:58
cubezzzall I really want is microsoft cut down to < 50% of the marketSep 04 08:59
__cschestowitz: look, I agree with all the stuff there.  If they've broken the law, they should pay the penalty.  We agree on this.  I just don't see why I should get all up-in-arms about it.Sep 04 09:00
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cubezzzwell the EU commission certainly did put the smack down on big MSep 04 09:01
cubezzzbut what did the DOJ do?Sep 04 09:01
cubezzzit seems they did very littleSep 04 09:01
schestowitzI have an idea:Sep 04 09:02
schestowitzI want to use RHEL desktopSep 04 09:02
schestowitzLet business buy 'blanket' licences for RHELSep 04 09:02
schestowitzThen, I'll be happySep 04 09:02
schestowitzThe other people will pay for RHEL whether they use it or not (many won't)Sep 04 09:02
cubezzzOEMs with Linux would be good tooSep 04 09:02
__cschestowitz: fine, that's the business's decision.Sep 04 09:03
schestowitzcubezzz: neither did enoughSep 04 09:03
__cI don't see why you shouldn't take advantage of it, though.Sep 04 09:03
schestowitzEU didn't address browser case until recentlySep 04 09:03
schestowitzDOJ is now more corrupted by MicrosoftSep 04 09:03
schestowitzIn the sense that Microsoft people are amon g those running itSep 04 09:03
schestowitzFew people complain about Ford for forcing them to buy a Ford carSep 04 09:04
schestowitzFew people complain about GE for forcing them to buy a GE fridgeSep 04 09:04
cubezzzthey can't :)Sep 04 09:04
schestowitzALso, many people forget that the question in PCs is differentSep 04 09:05
schestowitzBrowser case is NOT about bundling aloneSep 04 09:05
schestowitzIt's about punishing Microsoft for ILLGALLY-obtained market shareSep 04 09:05
schestowitzThe Microsoft talking point intentionally hide thisSep 04 09:05
schestowitzWith claims like, Linux should also offer screens to offer browsersSep 04 09:05
cubezzzwatch Gates testimony on youtube, it's good for a laughSep 04 09:06
schestowitzMicrosoft: where spin meets ignorance :-)Sep 04 09:06
cubezzzGates can't understand basic englishSep 04 09:06
schestowitzHe canSep 04 09:06
schestowitzBut he's from a lawyer familySep 04 09:06
schestowitzSo he pretends to be stupidSep 04 09:06
cubezzzyeahSep 04 09:06
schestowitzHe doesn't want to answer questionsSep 04 09:06
schestowitzHe's not stupifdSep 04 09:06
schestowitzHe just pretendsSep 04 09:06
schestowitzHe never got his law degree, did he?Sep 04 09:07
schestowitzhe dropped outSep 04 09:07
schestowitzAnd then there's this habit of honorary degrees, which is silly IMHOSep 04 09:07
cubezzzhe stole basic from a mini-computer companySep 04 09:07
cubezzzMicrosoft's very first productSep 04 09:08
schestowitzBill, Bill Snr and the mom sure knew how to use the law and family connections to get away with criminal activity, make wealth and keep Billy out of prisonSep 04 09:08
schestowitzI suppose you know all the storiesSep 04 09:08
cubezzzoh, he's a law breaker many times overSep 04 09:08
schestowitzNow they are doing a PR campaignSep 04 09:08
schestowitzBilly bought some newspaper where he imposed love of himself upon peopleSep 04 09:08
schestowitzAll the 'PR fluff' you'd find in mags like "Fortune", "USA Today", "Forbes" etcSep 04 09:09
schestowitzThose that glorify the rich men of America and set trends in reportingSep 04 09:09
schestowitzBut Rckerfeller did the sameSep 04 09:09
schestowitzDot he crime, then spend later life photographing oneself with puppies and stuff :-) :0)(Sep 04 09:10
cubezzzthe thing is standard oil was broken upSep 04 09:11
cubezzzMIcrosoft wasn'tSep 04 09:11
cubezzzI guess it could happen one daySep 04 09:12
schestowitzPlacebos Are Getting More Effective. Drugmakers Are Desperate to Know Why. < >Sep 04 09:13
cubezzzStallman may have actually prevented a total Microsoft takeoverSep 04 09:13
cubezzzit's interesting that BSD never caught on the way Linux didSep 04 09:13
schestowitzIf not RMS, someone else would have done itSep 04 09:13
cubezzzperhapsSep 04 09:13
schestowitzHe started in the 80s though, well before Microsoft was truly ont he radarSep 04 09:13
schestowitzYes, it's inevitableSep 04 09:13
schestowitzProgrammer write to shareSep 04 09:14
schestowitzRMS made a good licenceSep 04 09:14
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schestowitzHAd it not been Linux and GNU, more such programmer would move to BSDSep 04 09:14
cubezzzwithout Stallman, there would be no GPL either, no gcc no gnuSep 04 09:14
schestowitzSome would have probably made better licences to suit and protect their codeSep 04 09:14
schestowitzRMS was the first to do so for emacsSep 04 09:14
schestowitzThe MIT licences didn't suit him, I guess.Sep 04 09:15
cubezzzBSD was before Linux, before GNU evenSep 04 09:15
cubezzzit didn't really take offSep 04 09:15
cubezzzbut Microsoft did use BSD didn't they, at least at one pointSep 04 09:16
schestowitzCanadian Human Rights Tribunal Declares Internet Hate Speech Law Unconstitutional < >Sep 04 09:17
cubezzzthere was shareware, but it wasn't FOSS that's for sureSep 04 09:17
schestowitzcubezzz: computing was not widelyt accessible at the timeSep 04 09:17
schestowitzWhat would programmers do with a computer after work?Sep 04 09:17
schestowitzOr in the weekends?Sep 04 09:17
schestowitzWhat would they license under?Sep 04 09:17
cubezzzPeople had Commodore PETs, TRS-80 Model Ones, and Apple II's in the late 70'sSep 04 09:18
schestowitzThere is *still* shareware,Sep 04 09:18
cubezzzthey would use those computers, later on Vic-20 :)Sep 04 09:18
schestowitzStuff the Web was composed of was not sharewareSep 04 09:18
schestowitzHow many could afford a compiler?Sep 04 09:19
schestowitzIt's stuff we take for granted as a  commodity nowSep 04 09:19
cubezzzwe had assembler in those days :)Sep 04 09:19
cubezzz6502 and the likeSep 04 09:19
schestowitzLast time I bought an OS was 99 when I had one saddled onto a laptopSep 04 09:19
cubezzzin the 80's I paid $200+ for Lattice C for AmigaSep 04 09:20
schestowitzBillG saved the world :-)Sep 04 09:20
schestowitzTurning commodity to scarcitySep 04 09:20
schestowitzLike the man who blows diamond to space to make it a rarity for the benefit of society at largeSep 04 09:20
schestowitzI heard that some precious metals are eliminated rather then disseminated because they threaten to lower the cost of the material as a wholeSep 04 09:21
cubezzzpeople pay for support, for training, and yes programming stillSep 04 09:21
schestowitzNow, that's just disgusting.Sep 04 09:21
cubezzzprobably always willSep 04 09:21
schestowitzIBM programs LinuxSep 04 09:21
schestowitzTo make its h/wSep 04 09:21
cubezzzEinstein said matter can't be destroyed :)Sep 04 09:22
schestowitzTO run better on its hardwareSep 04 09:22
schestowitzIt builds the software for others tooSep 04 09:22
cubezzzyou can't really eliminate precious metalsSep 04 09:22
schestowitzThe question is, who would write freely up the stack?Sep 04 09:22
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schestowitzOOo was done by SUN which got contracts for itSep 04 09:22
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schestowitzcubezzz: I knowSep 04 09:22
schestowitzThat's why I said "Blow to space"Sep 04 09:22
cubezzzok :)Sep 04 09:23
schestowitzOr bury/hide deeper in groundSep 04 09:23
schestowitzOr you could change their atomic composition, which is hardSep 04 09:23
cubezzztransmutation of elements would really change the economy, eh? :)Sep 04 09:23
schestowitzI still laugh at valuation of gold and silverSep 04 09:23
schestowitzThese are just atomic elementsSep 04 09:23
cubezzzala Star TrekSep 04 09:23
schestowitzOr compisitions thereofSep 04 09:23
schestowitzSimply less abundantSep 04 09:23
schestowitzPeople treat food like their property (fish) to be taken for grantedSep 04 09:24
schestowitzBut it's assumed to be no-one's property, up for grabs in infinite suppliesSep 04 09:24
schestowitzWhereas stupid metals are treated as divineSep 04 09:24
cubezzzwell, you can't make gold obviously, and it's pretty rare, hence it's valuableSep 04 09:24
cubezzznot sure what we _really_ need gold for though :)Sep 04 09:24
schestowitzSooner or later people might have not sufficient drinkable water or food, so who cares about metals?Sep 04 09:25
schestowitzcubezzz: gold is a terrible metalSep 04 09:25
schestowitzIt's softSep 04 09:25
schestowitzIf you want a heavy paperweight, then sure... gold is slightly better than mostSep 04 09:25
cubezzzit's ductile, I'm sure there's a practical use, it doesn't corrode I don't thinkSep 04 09:26
schestowitzWell, society taught people that if the ring is made out of gold, then more love is implied. It's marketing really.Sep 04 09:26
cubezzzmostly it looks good :)Sep 04 09:26
schestowitzcubezzz: maybe diamond is betterSep 04 09:26
schestowitzAt least very hard and good for digging into the groundSep 04 09:26
schestowitzcubezzz: looks good is biasedSep 04 09:27
schestowitzAnd you need to polish gold a lot to make it worthySep 04 09:27
schestowitzI personally think the sky looks goodSep 04 09:27
schestowitzBut I can't find buyers for "atmosphere"Sep 04 09:27
cubezzzthat reminds me of the second Highlander movieSep 04 09:28
schestowitzProprietary fail: (Diebold Unloads Beleaguered Voting Machine Division)Sep 04 09:28
Diablo-D3who wants to watch a legal attack blow up?Sep 04 09:28
Diablo-D3 04 09:28
cubezzzwhere this evil company makes everyone think the atmosphere is poisonousSep 04 09:28
schestowitzSense of belonging to material is odd in its own rightSep 04 09:29
Diablo-D3spoiler: harmony gold doesn't own the rights to macrossSep 04 09:29
Diablo-D3big west doesSep 04 09:29
schestowitzLike.. people assume they 'own' thingsSep 04 09:29
schestowitzLike it's a physical appendage to themSep 04 09:29
schestowitzWhy not buy land of he moon, too?Sep 04 09:29
Diablo-D3FASA already settled their differences with big west and removed the designs from all future productsSep 04 09:29
schestowitz[if you get to say it's yours]Sep 04 09:29
schestowitzDiablo-D3: FASA is pissed off at the VoleSep 04 09:30
Diablo-D3Harmony Gold is trying to SCO FASASep 04 09:30
Diablo-D3schestowitz: see what I just wroteSep 04 09:30
Diablo-D3this should turn into an epic legal battleSep 04 09:30
schestowitz 04 09:30
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Diablo-D3schestowitz: that has nothing to do with anythingSep 04 09:30
schestowitzOKSep 04 09:30
cubezzzschestowitz, I'll give you the Andromeda Galaxy, but you have to go there to stake your claim :)Sep 04 09:30
Diablo-D3we're talking about the battletech/mechwarrior property hereSep 04 09:30
schestowitzCan I name it?Sep 04 09:30
Diablo-D3microsoft owning fasa is not relevent hereSep 04 09:31
schestowitzHow about naming stars?? :-)Sep 04 09:31
cubezzzyeah :)Sep 04 09:31
schestowitzWe could give a star to each man and women that ever livedSep 04 09:31
schestowitzSo say... which galaxy is 'your' star inSep 04 09:31
schestowitz?Sep 04 09:31
cubezzztoo bad Tesla wasn't alive nowSep 04 09:31
schestowitzThis reminds me of a video I watched last night... wait...Sep 04 09:31
cubezzzinstead of Microsoft we would have ..... Teslasoft :)Sep 04 09:33
schestowitzSkip to 7:00: 04 09:33
cubezzzor even better, Teslasoft could kick Microsoft's assSep 04 09:34
schestowitzThey would have poached what remained of MSFTSep 04 09:35
schestowitzMaybe hire Ballmer to become Marketing VPSep 04 09:35
schestowitzMusic Comes Back To Life On YouTube In The UK < >Sep 04 09:36
cubezzzI hope that's not Ballmer selling Windows 1.0Sep 04 09:36
cubezzzok, good it's Cosmos :)Sep 04 09:37
schestowitz "CEO John Swainson led a multi-year turnaround effort at the IT management company after an accounting scandal. His successor has not been named."Sep 04 09:38
schestowitzCA= corruptionSep 04 09:38
schestowitzALso Microsoft friendsSep 04 09:38
schestowitz 04 09:39
schestowitzWon't be lond before Kindle runs DoomSep 04 09:40
schestowitz*longSep 04 09:40
schestowitz"Maybe it's a sign of the rough economy, or a push to get more people trained in its technologies, but Microsoft is suddenly offering discounts of as much as 25 percent on exams required to receive Microsoft certifications." 04 09:43
schestowitzMicrosoft(shill)watch has already decided: 04 09:58
schestowitzWhat is this, what have they made of the site?Sep 04 09:58
schestowitzAnd Mary Jo FOley is also in Fangal modeSep 04 09:59
schestowitzSladhdot uses the Microsoft Gralla shill to suggest a 'comparison' between OSes: 04 10:01
schestowitzUbuntu award for late King Sabata < >Sep 04 10:04
__cschestowitz: that's not a bad comparison.  Subjective, yes, but having used Win7, it's fair.Sep 04 10:05
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schestowitz 04 10:27
schestowitzHey, _mutex_Sep 04 10:27
schestowitzaka "cheese"Sep 04 10:28
DaemonFCNovell must has stopped pouring cash into BansheeSep 04 10:29
DaemonFCeven the development version is almost hopelessly behind RhythmboxSep 04 10:30
DaemonFCseveral pieces of it don't even work anymoreSep 04 10:30
__cDaemonFC: maybe they don't know ... open a bug?Sep 04 10:32
DaemonFCknown issuesSep 04 10:32
DaemonFCthey just haven't fixed themSep 04 10:32
DaemonFCLast.FM hasn't worked in monthsSep 04 10:32
DaemonFCthe FreeDB lookup plugin no longer worksSep 04 10:32
__cweirdSep 04 10:33
DaemonFCI was using Banshee because Rhythmbox used to suckSep 04 10:34
DaemonFCRhythmbox has pulled way ahead thoughSep 04 10:34
schestowitzTry exaileSep 04 10:35
schestowitzI use it right nowSep 04 10:35
schestowitzIt has plugins tooSep 04 10:35
DaemonFCExaile was not that great last time I checked itSep 04 10:35
DaemonFCthat's been a while thoughSep 04 10:35
DaemonFCExaile Average rating 50Sep 04 10:37
DaemonFChehSep 04 10:37
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-BNc/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] Microsoft’s Joachim Kempin: “AS LONG AS IT DOES NOT RUN ON Vl[R]GIN PCs I AM AT LEAST SEMI HAPPY” 04 10:53
schestowitzExaile 0.3.0 is out iircSep 04 10:54
schestowitzI use an old versionSep 04 10:55
schestowitzMandriva repos..Sep 04 10:55
schestowitzSharp unleashes Ubuntu-based Netbook < >Sep 04 10:56
schestowitzJapan only -- for nowSep 04 10:56
schestowitz[ANNOUNCE] LyX is releasedSep 04 10:58
schestowitz"LyX, a minor service upgrade release, is available now. The upgrade Sep 04 10:59
schestowitzfixes a regression that prevented the release of Mac OS X binaries for LyX Sep 04 10:59
schestowitz1.6.4."Sep 04 10:59
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] Bad naming: "Lubuntu" People will use the "lubricant" jokes against it.Sep 04 10:59
schestowitzWho cares about OS X?Sep 04 10:59
schestowitz"23 September are oral proceedings concerning the i4i patent lawsuitSep 04 10:59
schestowitz 04 10:59
schestowitzand 24 September are as you know the annual Stop Software Patents daySep 04 10:59
schestowitzcelebrations. Apparenly at the date there is also an ECIS meet-up inSep 04 10:59
schestowitzBrussels, an association which takes a more pretty view of Microsoft andSep 04 10:59
schestowitzfiled diverse antitrust complainst against the company.Sep 04 10:59
schestowitzWhat a coincidence. Do you expect Microsoft to join the campaign this year?"Sep 04 10:59
__cI wouldn't expect IBM or Google to be there, either ...Sep 04 11:09
DaemonFChmmmSep 04 11:24
DaemonFCLinux 2.6.31 will be more responsive on systems with less memorySep 04 11:24
DaemonFC 04 11:25
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-BNc/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] Telstra and Microsoft Make it Official: Microsoft Enters Telstra’s Board 04 11:38
DaemonFCI'm lining up possible candidates to replace my AverMedia M780 tunerSep 04 11:43
DaemonFCI've given up on there ever being a Linux driver for itSep 04 11:43
schestowitz Poll: Is the new Nokia N900 really a good Linux mobile phone?Sep 04 11:46
DaemonFCabout the only affordable replacements I see need binary firmwareSep 04 11:47
DaemonFCwhich is not my first pickSep 04 11:47
schestowitzThe ANdrew Thomas shill is attacking Linux with NetApps lies againSep 04 11:51
schestowitzHe's close to MicrSep 04 11:51
schestowitzsSep 04 11:51
schestowitzThey work togetherSep 04 11:51
schestowitzTG Daily is a trash baskey cause of himSep 04 11:51
schestowitzAlso attacking FirefocSep 04 11:51
schestowitzAlso attacking FirefoxSep 04 11:51
schestowitzCOmpromises with hardware you should not have bought is reasonableSep 04 11:52
schestowitz "Windows Mobile has been losing market share recently to a combination of the success of the iPhone and of Blackberry devices and the trend towards Android and proprietary Linux-based operating systems. It needs to keep Windows Mobile in the game until it releases version 7, which is expected to be a complete re-build."Sep 04 11:54
DaemonFCwell, schestowitz, most of the TV cards that are correctly supported with no configuration or binary firmware either cost $200 or are only useful if you live in europeSep 04 11:55
DaemonFCI spent a good deal of effort racking through the driver list in the kernel and only found a couple that may work with a lot of tinkeringSep 04 11:56
DaemonFCon the other hand I suppose I could always send it back if I can't make it workSep 04 11:56
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-BNc/#boycottnovell-[davidgerard] @schestowitz can't be worse than Ubuntu 8.04, "Hairy Hardon"Sep 04 12:02
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[popey] Saw Sophie was on her DS in chat. So I started mine up, joined her chat and sent her little doodles. Lovely chuckles from the other room :)Sep 04 12:06
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] According to stats from this one source, GNU/Linux carries on gaining whereas OS X remains stable. 04 12:08
schestowitzMaggie Shiels  on GOOG 04 12:35
schestowitzFanboy Asay is being a nuisance again: 04 12:38
schestowitzHow can /ANYONE/ think that allowing Oracle to get mysql is a Good THing{TM}?Sep 04 12:38
__cschestowitz: umm, because Oracle does DBs, and is good at them?Sep 04 12:39
schestowitzSun Reports Loss For Final Quarter 04 12:39
__cSo what could emerge is an even better DB?Sep 04 12:39
schestowitzThey should break apart SUNSep 04 12:39
schestowitzLet MySQL goes indpendentSep 04 12:39
schestowitzWOrk with MariaDB and other groupsSep 04 12:39
schestowitz__c: you sounds like those Oracle lobbyistsSep 04 12:40
__cWhy, do you have something against Oracle?Sep 04 12:40
schestowitzLess choice adds nothingSep 04 12:40
schestowitzPrice-fixing and allSep 04 12:40
__cschestowitz: yes, they hired me to sit here all day on the off-chance that you would mention them ;)Sep 04 12:40
schestowitzI was joking, well.. duhSep 04 12:40
schestowitz:-)Sep 04 12:41
__c*shrug*.  There's always the GPLed version of MySQL.  Might not be as good, but them's the breaks.Sep 04 12:41
schestowitz 04 12:41
schestowitzHaha. Watch the Linux shot at the toSep 04 12:42
schestowitzMono company from Microsoft folksSep 04 12:42
schestowitzHiding behind "Linux" brandSep 04 12:42
__cschestowitz: ?Sep 04 12:43
__cthe graphic at the top, "Linux" magazine ... I don't get it?Sep 04 12:44
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] An open-source chessboard (pic): 04 12:45
schestowitzSendmail Introduces New Message Processing Platform 04 12:46
schestowitzContinuent Announces New Tungsten Version 04 12:47
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schestowitzOracle could deal Sun hardware to HP 04 12:47
schestowitzThey should deal mysql to... well, itself!Sep 04 12:48
schestowitzEven IBMSep 04 12:48
schestowitzIBM's DBs are not its core business.Sep 04 12:48
__cschestowitz: other than the fact that they bought it, I'd agree with you.Sep 04 12:48
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] If Oracle intends to give away Sun h/w < >, why not give mysql another home?Sep 04 12:49
schestowitz__c: not bought yetSep 04 13:01
schestowitzAntitrust/regulatorsSep 04 13:01
schestowitzSame with Microhoo!Sep 04 13:01
__cschestowitz: it's likely to be bought, by all accounts.  I suppose we'll see, who knows.Sep 04 13:02
__cWhat's Microhoo?Sep 04 13:02
MinceRm$+yahoo!Sep 04 13:02
__cmmm.  Don't they have a deal instead?Sep 04 13:02
MinceRthey doSep 04 13:03
MinceRand it sticks them togetherSep 04 13:03
MinceRit's one evil mess with a common goal now, against the rest of the worldSep 04 13:03
MinceRtime to resurrect p2p websearch, i guessSep 04 13:03
__c"evil"?  Ummm yeah, sure.Sep 04 13:03
__cAs long as they deliver good search results and don't do anything too stupid, I'll use 'em.Sep 04 13:04
MinceRyour choiceSep 04 13:04
MinceRjust don't come whining after they've used the profile they've built about you against youSep 04 13:04
__cwhat, you mean like Facebook does?Sep 04 13:05
__cOr Google?Sep 04 13:05
MinceR(even if someone else buys it from them and they use it against you)Sep 04 13:05
MinceRpretty much, yesSep 04 13:05
__cSo my choices are (a) don't use search or (b) use search and lose some privacy.Sep 04 13:05
*__c picks (b)Sep 04 13:05
__cSame choice the world has made for the last decade ;).Sep 04 13:05
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] Among those signs that GNU/Linux is growing: 60 "Thousand Russian Teachers Will Learn Linux by the End of 2009" < >Sep 04 13:08
schestowitzMinceR: your buddy wants to feed the gazelle to the lion: 04 13:15
MinceR__c: actually it's possible to enhance privacy while searching. for example, by using Scroogle or Tor.Sep 04 13:17
MinceRschestowitz: that clown isn't and has never been my buddy. :>Sep 04 13:17
schestowitzEC's Long, Hard Look at Sun-Oracle Deal Gets Longer, Harder < >Sep 04 13:18
MinceR__c: also, a DHT-based p2p websearch should be more secure/private, too.Sep 04 13:18
schestowitzIs there still a scroogle search bar for FF?Sep 04 13:19
schestowitzWhen I last used it they killed itSep 04 13:19
MinceRdunnoSep 04 13:19
MinceRi currently use my Web Command Line to launch it anywaySep 04 13:19
schestowitzMinceR: sorry about thatSep 04 13:19
schestowitzI confused Asay with your real buddy. 04 13:19
MinceRand Quick Search Bookmarks should work, tooSep 04 13:19
MinceRhe isn't my buddy either.Sep 04 13:19
schestowitzBut lookSep 04 13:20
schestowitzHe looks so innocentSep 04 13:20
schestowitzI'm sure there's a real spirit inside that tin manSep 04 13:20
MinceRalso, i think the search widget can have any engine added to it still.Sep 04 13:20
MinceRsure, a real spirit from the Lower PlanesSep 04 13:20
MinceRdunno whichSep 04 13:20
>ChanServ<op #boycottnovell schestowitzSep 04 13:21
*ChanServ gives channel operator status to schestowitzSep 04 13:21
schestowitzPJ waste effort IMHO with Psychostar.. 04 13:23
schestowitz*WastesSep 04 13:23
schestowitzGoogle Chrome to Be the Browser That Greets Sony VAIO Buyers < >Sep 04 13:25
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-BNc/#boycottnovell-[zoobab] World Day Against Software Patents on the 24th September, more infos coming soon...Sep 04 13:41
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schestowitzoiaohm: se Telstra postSep 04 14:03
oiaohmThinking Telstra still has control of most of australias land lines.Sep 04 14:04
oiaohmIts a little more important than you kinda made out.Sep 04 14:04
schestowitzIndian outsourcers ramp up again < >Sep 04 14:05
schestowitz 04 14:06
schestowitzLots of good Linux news today, oiaohm Sep 04 14:10
oiaohm   << now that is a change.Sep 04 14:10
schestowitzkde hold great promise (share-wise): 04 14:11
schestowitzoiaohm: yes, posted here earlierSep 04 14:11
oiaohmOnce KDE for windows works lot of migration issues will be able to be reduced.Sep 04 14:12
schestowitzOopsSep 04 14:13
schestowitzI posted the wrong URL in TwitterdenticaSep 04 14:13
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] Among those signs that GNU/Linux is growing: "60 Thousand Russian Teachers Will Learn Linux by the End of 2009" (co ...Sep 04 14:14
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[davidgerard] Microsoft training slides for Best Buy to push Windows 7 on netbooks 04 14:14
oiaohmLOLSep 04 14:14
oiaohmIts not like you to stuff up a link that often schestowitzSep 04 14:15
schestowitzanti-LinuxSep 04 14:15
schestowitzCrazy forum that.... 04 14:17
*schestowitz gives channel operator status to MinceRSep 04 14:18
twitterLMAO at Vista 7 training.  Vista 7 provides none of the four promised things, choice, compatibility, familiarity or peace of mind.Sep 04 14:19
oiaohmNotice something funny about that training.Sep 04 14:19
oiaohmMS is mentioning Linux.Sep 04 14:19
schestowitztwitter: it's like an anti Linux Wal-mart routineSep 04 14:20
schestowitzRemotelySep 04 14:20
oiaohmyou only do that if you fear your competitor other wise you just talk about your own product and hope the staff don't know about the other.Sep 04 14:20
twitterit's a DRM upsell with a minor facelift that blows your old software away and confuses the crap out of the user for zero security gain.Sep 04 14:20
oiaohmNot exactly.Sep 04 14:21
oiaohmMS threated users that if they did not upgrade to vista the next upgrade would be painful.Sep 04 14:21
twitterWhen they get into the specifics is where they really start lying.Sep 04 14:21
oiaohmNot like MS could miss carrying out the threat.Sep 04 14:22
oiaohmNo threat more people likely to skip upgrading.Sep 04 14:22
twitterVista has had crappy iPod support all along.  iPod sucks like that but you might have been better off with gnu/linux and were certainly better off with a Mac if iPod is all you care about.Sep 04 14:22
oiaohmSaidly Vista support of MS own equal to the iPod was not much better.Sep 04 14:23
schestowitziTunes crashed VistaSep 04 14:24
schestowitzI can find reports easilySep 04 14:24
schestowitzI wrote about someSep 04 14:24
oiaohmLots of things using USB crashed on Vista.Sep 04 14:24
*schestowitz removes channel operator status from schestowitzSep 04 14:25
oiaohmWeb cams particular brands of USB sticks  ipodsSep 04 14:25
twitterYes, Vista regularly sabotaged iTunes.Sep 04 14:25
oiaohmBasically the killed the stack.Sep 04 14:25
schestowitzVIsta uses USB? [Vista crashes Vista]Sep 04 14:25
schestowitzTCP/IP stack tooSep 04 14:25
schestowitzThey threw out the BS codeSep 04 14:25
oiaohmYepSep 04 14:25
schestowitzAnd VIsta became bad for networkingSep 04 14:26
schestowitzOne of the reasons for people to abandon VIstaSep 04 14:26
oiaohmVista with crashed tcp/ip stack is funny.Sep 04 14:26
oiaohm30 mins to login.Sep 04 14:26
schestowitzAlso, it had huge flaws in TCP/IPSep 04 14:26
twitterI've collected a lot of Vista media suck, it's a whole category of fail.Sep 04 14:26
schestowitzSome critical, remotely exploitableSep 04 14:26
oiaohmAnd stack has to be manually restarted.Sep 04 14:26
schestowitzMagic packets own the OSSep 04 14:26
oiaohmBecause it does not start clean every good.Sep 04 14:26
oiaohmgood/bootSep 04 14:26
oiaohmI don't know who designed the Vista tcp/ip stack but they were insane.Sep 04 14:26
schestowitzoiaohm: same in Vista 7 by the waySep 04 14:26
schestowitzSame stack that itSep 04 14:26
twitterYes, Vista had such bad networking it was able to take down wifi access points.Sep 04 14:26
schestowitzWhich is why it'll failSep 04 14:26
schestowitzUsed by enthusiasts att he mostSep 04 14:27
schestowitz*momentSep 04 14:27
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[davidgerard] #semanticweb requires humans in the loop, or this happens: (humans are why Wikipedia beats random Google clicks)Sep 04 14:27
schestowitzLiie Ubuntu alphasSep 04 14:27
schestowitzUsers of Ubuntu alpha like itSep 04 14:27
schestowitzCase it's Ubuntu...Sep 04 14:27
schestowitzWHo else would bother with alpha?Sep 04 14:27
twitteroverall, the lies are showing though - even for people who work at Best Buy.Sep 04 14:27
schestowitz"WRONG"Sep 04 14:27
twitterI hope this guy has covered his identity, Best Buy and M$ will fire him for sharing.Sep 04 14:27
schestowitz"WRONG"Sep 04 14:27
schestowitz"WRONG"Sep 04 14:27
schestowitz"WRONG"Sep 04 14:27
schestowitz"WRONG"Sep 04 14:27
schestowitz"WRONG"Sep 04 14:27
schestowitzYou must bless MicrosoftSep 04 14:28
schestowitzOr else....Sep 04 14:28
schestowitzYou must bless MicrosoftSep 04 14:28
schestowitz"WRONG"Sep 04 14:28
oiaohmThe best part of it MS screwed up.Sep 04 14:28
schestowitzWhy downgrade to Vista 7?Sep 04 14:29
schestowitz 04 14:29
oiaohmAlways a percentage of people giving a breffing will question it.Sep 04 14:29
schestowitzCause otherwise you fail the examSep 04 14:29
twitterThe vista media suck list, 04 14:29
schestowitzI wonder if employees get fired for not agreeing with this Microsoft anti-linux braiwashSep 04 14:29
oiaohmHmm we need to start one for windows 7 twitterSep 04 14:29
oiaohmI have a feeling it will grow fast.Sep 04 14:30
schestowitzoiaohm: trmanco likes itSep 04 14:31
schestowitztwitter: can copy most of it to Vista 7Sep 04 14:31
schestowitzSame problems appluySep 04 14:31
schestowitzIncluding securitySep 04 14:31
schestowitzNotice that never mention VIata 7 securitySep 04 14:31
schestowitzCause nothing changedSep 04 14:32
oiaohmThere will be new ones schestowitzSep 04 14:32
twitterYes, employees are fired for such things.  There are plenty of people in line for the job.Sep 04 14:32
schestowitzTHey can probably have the same team write patches for Vista 7 that they write for VistaSep 04 14:32
oiaohmIts not like MS programmers to leave the stuff that works alone.Sep 04 14:32
oiaohmHmm kde is moving into mantaice mode.  nice.Sep 04 14:33
twitterVista pushed many retailers into bankruptcy.  Windows 7 will challenge what's left.Sep 04 14:33
oiaohmWas not vista alone twitterSep 04 14:33
twitterBest Buy is going the full M$ route and will pay a terrible price.Sep 04 14:34
twitterThey think they have it easy because no one else is left selling computers brick and mortar.Sep 04 14:34
oiaohmLot of retailers had stock aquired on lowns as well that were called in.  So crash + MS hurt.Sep 04 14:34
twitterbut having an exclusive on turds won't make you rich.Sep 04 14:34
oiaohmThe question is will MS have to cut there price before release.Sep 04 14:36
oiaohmMS has dumped out more free copies of Windows 7 than any other version of windows.Sep 04 14:36
oiaohmAnd its not even released yet.Sep 04 14:36
schestowitzFeds force Googlebooks privacy promise < >Sep 04 14:40
schestowitzLG promises 3D plasma telly 04 14:42
schestowitzAren't these banned in EU already ^^ ?Sep 04 14:42
schestowitzThey are energy-guzzling luxuriesSep 04 14:43
schestowitzBad for ollutionSep 04 14:43
schestowitzEU to ban plasma televisions in battle against climate change < >Sep 04 14:44
schestowitzSo why does the Register cover already-banned TVs (or to-be banned TVs)Sep 04 14:44
schestowitzApple fans get jammed in the toilet, again. "An 18-year-old Sunderland lass who got her head stuck down a music festival toilet while attempting to retrieve her cash and iPhone from the malodorous pit has become a Facebook celeb, the Sun reports." 04 14:50
MinceRlolSep 04 14:52
MinceRswirlieSep 04 14:52
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] xkcd finds solution to spambot... 04 14:54
schestowitzMinceR: hopefully for Apple, this is not symbolic of the intelligence of thewir customersSep 04 14:54
MinceRactually it isSep 04 14:55
schestowitzOh.Sep 04 14:55
schestowitzThat's s shame then.Sep 04 14:55
schestowitz"Hi. I'm Linux."Sep 04 14:55
schestowitz"And I'm in the toilet... literally"Sep 04 14:56
oiaohmLinus bit by penquin made the news.Sep 04 14:56
oiaohmNo reason why Linux stuck somewhere could not.Sep 04 14:57
schestowitzSee comments here: 04 14:57
oiaohmHmm I don't know if there is a Linux controlled tollet out there.Sep 04 14:57
schestowitzoiaohm: they could say she tried to retrieve a phoneSep 04 14:57
schestowitzBut they said iPhoneSep 04 14:57
schestowitzLike it's somehting specialSep 04 14:57
schestowitzLike saying, "man dives into abyss in CHevy"Sep 04 14:58
schestowitzRather than "Car"Sep 04 14:58
oiaohmiPhome is more expensive than a normal phone.Sep 04 14:58
schestowitzBecause customers are gullibleSep 04 14:58
oiaohmNow cash in tollet is also a major problem.Sep 04 14:58
schestowitzWhat do you mean by "normal phone"?Sep 04 14:58
schestowitziPhone is a "normal [smart]phone"Sep 04 14:58
schestowitz+HYPESep 04 14:58
oiaohmNormal not smart phone.Sep 04 14:59
oiaohmThat you get basically for free on prepaid.Sep 04 14:59
schestowitzBut, but...... the adverts in the UK say iPhone can now... wait for it.. copy and pasteSep 04 14:59
oiaohmNow going after a prepaid cheep phone would be pure stupidity.Sep 04 14:59
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] Trouble in SUSE land 04 15:01
schestowitzoiaohm: so is buying an iPhoneSep 04 15:01
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schestowitz "Access Denied"Sep 04 15:03
schestowitzWhat happened?Sep 04 15:03
EruaranhmmSep 04 15:04
oiaohm  Hmm some project are just warped.Sep 04 15:05
MinceRhypePhones aren't smartphones.Sep 04 15:06
oiaohm   The link has changed a number for some reason schestowitzSep 04 15:07
MinceRsmartphones can have software of the user's choice installed on it from any source.Sep 04 15:07
twitter 04 15:07
twitterVista 7 failure log is updated. 04 15:11
twitter"09/03 - Windows 7 propaganda is laughed at in public by Best Buy employees."Sep 04 15:12
MinceR:DSep 04 15:14
twitterVista 7 hype log updated 04 15:16
oiaohmThe list will grow I expect quite a lot over the next month twitterSep 04 15:16
twitter M$ themselves try to teach Best Buy employees to lie about Windows 7,  and are called on it in public.Sep 04 15:16
Diablo-D3 04 15:20
Diablo-D3 04 15:22
twitterlol ->  THERE ARE SIGNS that the IT downturn has passed as Indian outsourcers are starting to hire again on a massive scale.Sep 04 15:23
schestowitzMy Arch Linux Experiment (Part 1) < >Sep 04 15:24
schestowitzNot working for himSep 04 15:24
schestowitzThat's why I won't try Arch or GentooSep 04 15:24
twitterWell ... if the expansion comes in India and you live elsewhere, the IT downturn is not over for you.Sep 04 15:24
twitterI know a firm that used Gentoo commercially.Sep 04 15:25
twitterThey used it for transport calcs because they wanted complete control of the kernel build.Sep 04 15:25
oiaohmThe secound wave of debt clearing has not happened in the USA yet.Sep 04 15:31
oiaohmI would not be sure until it happened that the down turn is over.Sep 04 15:32
schestowitz 04 15:33
schestowitzTemporary fixes are no use for terminal debtSep 04 15:33
schestowitzBailout. *LOL*Sep 04 15:33
schestowitzLet the kids and grandkids sufferSep 04 15:34
schestowitzIt's like with global warningSep 04 15:34
schestowitzPeople don't like reality, so they pass the issue to future generationsSep 04 15:34
schestowitzDebt, pollution, hunger, lack of fuelSep 04 15:34
schestowitz "I've received many requests to launch a website about Obama. Well, here it is But for those that know me, I do not have the time to post and operate the site. If you are interested in being a Contributor or part-time Web assistant, please email me"Sep 04 15:40
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] Putin <3 Stalin? 04 15:42
schestowitzDownright Painful: Server Sales Plummeted in Q2 < >Sep 04 15:49
schestowitz"More than 20% of IT professionals say they have experienced age discrimination, and unemployment among senior IT professionals is running at over 30%." 04 15:50
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schestowitzMozilla to protect Adobe Flash users - Update 04 15:54
schestowitzwallclimber: yo, what's new?Sep 04 15:54
wallclimberGood morning!  I've been reading the newest BN articlesSep 04 15:55
wallclimberLoved the Flying Chair award :o)Sep 04 15:55
wallclimberseller liar should be proud!Sep 04 15:56
schestowitzI didn't post muchSep 04 15:56
schestowitzwallclimber: he's too humbleSep 04 15:56
schestowitzGenerally I've not had much time to post this weekSep 04 15:56
wallclimberwell, I haven't really had much time to read this week, so there was a lot new to meSep 04 15:56
schestowitzCarpeting work and stuffSep 04 15:56
wallclimberi forgot, you've moved to a new do you like it?Sep 04 15:57
schestowitzimportant news: EU delays Oracle-Sun deal, probing database market < >Sep 04 15:57
schestowitzKudos to the EU COmmissionSep 04 15:57
schestowitzwallclimber: very much, thanksSep 04 15:57
schestowitzWe can do another memoSep 04 15:57
schestowitzI have 4 that are better than the last oneSep 04 15:58
wallclimberi've been reading a lot of comments that seem to think the EU is dragging their feet with the Oracle/Sun deal approval...Sep 04 15:58
wallclimberdo you think that's true?  I don't.Sep 04 15:58
schestowitzMicrosoft has gotten extremely nervous about LinuxSep 04 15:58
schestowitz 04 15:58
schestowitzI think MySQL never belonged in Sun and it should be given independence somehowSep 04 15:59
wallclimberI found an article (opinion piece) the other day that stated Linux was losing ground to Vista 7...I laughed.  I think it was on diggSep 04 15:59
schestowitzThe EU can block the acquisition until it us changedSep 04 15:59
schestowitzIt should, IMHOSep 04 15:59
schestowitzwallclimber: it's notSep 04 16:00
schestowitzIt's Microsoft shill ThomasSep 04 16:00
schestowitzYou must have read himSep 04 16:00
schestowitzHe made TWO such postsSep 04 16:00
schestowitzIn TG Daily, right?Sep 04 16:00
wallclimberi wonder if Steve B will fly to Europe to do some schmooozingSep 04 16:00
wallclimberyes, I think that's who it wasSep 04 16:00
wallclimber i don't think it got much attention thoSep 04 16:00
twitterUbuntu losing ground to Windows 8!!!!!!  wallclimber: I found an article (opinion piece) the other day that stated Linux was losing ground to Vista 7...I laughed.  I think it was on diggSep 04 16:01
schestowitzSee my comment here: 04 16:01
wallclimberhi twitter!Sep 04 16:01
twitterhello.Sep 04 16:01
twitterNot released OS steals everyone's Market Share Lunch (TM)Sep 04 16:01
twitterthat's rich.Sep 04 16:01
wallclimberyes, i found it to be amusing...wishful thinking - brought to you by MS marketing droidsSep 04 16:02
twitterFantasy IT Team makes Dream OS. har har.Sep 04 16:02
twitterthe droids are really graspingSep 04 16:03
wallclimberit's true, i've been a little amazed at how overtly desperate their actions have been latelySep 04 16:03
wallclimberI think the i4i case scared themSep 04 16:04
*benJIman has quit ( 04 16:04
twitterPublic looting, I'm still waiting for my bailout but all I see is $180,000 of new debt. -> schestowitz: Bailout. *LOL*Sep 04 16:05
*benJIman ( has joined #boycottnovellSep 04 16:05
twitterThe droids were bragging about how Vista 7 is sooooo much better than OSX a few days ago too.Sep 04 16:06
twitterI recorded some of the madness in my Vista 7 Hype log - Hall of Shame.Sep 04 16:06
wallclimberI read itSep 04 16:07
wallclimber:o)Sep 04 16:07
twittercoolSep 04 16:07
twitter 04 16:07
wallclimberlol...i have it bookmarkedSep 04 16:08
twitterThere's a new addition for the Best Buy lie training.Sep 04 16:08
wallclimberslashdotters swear that "grandma" never reads anything there - hehSep 04 16:08
twitterAn employee posted screen shots of M$'s Anti-Linux training this morning.Sep 04 16:09
wallclimber(I'm reading it)Sep 04 16:09
twitterHe laughed in their face at it.Sep 04 16:09
twitterhave fun, I'll be back later.Sep 04 16:10
twitter:)Sep 04 16:10
wallclimberbyeSep 04 16:10
*twitter has quit ("Leaving.")Sep 04 16:10
schestowitzwallclimber: see 04 16:10
schestowitzMicrosoft: "[I] think we should stay super polite publically but drop the private neutron bombs. Let’s hire all their good guys [...] Let got visit all their key corporate customers and disclose the details [...] Let’s visit [...] and explain to them how much money their PC Group is throwing at a losing proposition and how easy it would be for them to work with Microsoft if they weren’t on a path to take us out of our core buSep 04 16:10
schestowitzsiness of desktop operating systems. And finally – let’s give copies of the MS/IBM audit to each of the 25 most influential ISVs. And maybe even corporate customers too if there are no legal issues."Sep 04 16:10
wallclimbergot it...reading you want this one transcribed next?Sep 04 16:11
schestowitzLOLSep 04 16:11
wallclimberI can do it nowSep 04 16:11
*twitter ( has joined #boycottnovellSep 04 16:11
schestowitzJust seen this in USENET:Sep 04 16:11
schestowitz" 04 16:11
schestowitz"But even the software giant has tried to tamp down expectations for Sep 04 16:11
schestowitzthe new operating system"Sep 04 16:11
schestowitzIn other words: my 'Windows 7, I HATE IT ALREADY' campaign is bearing Sep 04 16:11
schestowitzfruit. Windows 7 will be another dud and its release will NOT result in Sep 04 16:11
schestowitzanother PC upgrade cycle. Businesses will all but ignore Windows 7 and Sep 04 16:11
schestowitzmost uptake will come from consumers. This would be disastrous for Sep 04 16:11
schestowitzMicrosoft's credibility in the marketplace.Sep 04 16:11
schestowitzI wonder what M$ will come up with after the failure of Windows 7, a Sep 04 16:11
schestowitzWindows XP Second Edition? I'm pretty sure another incremental Vista Sep 04 16:11
schestowitzupdate won't cut it with Wall Street so they'll have to try something Sep 04 16:11
schestowitzradical. How about porting the Windows UI to Linux or (more likely) Sep 04 16:11
schestowitzFreeBSD? Might work, but far from certain.Sep 04 16:11
schestowitzWindows 7, I HATE IT ALREADY!!!"Sep 04 16:11
schestowitzUNQUOTESep 04 16:11
EruaranSeems like ZDnet is publishing anti-Snow Leopard articles dailySep 04 16:12
*oiaohm has quit (Remote closed the connection)Sep 04 16:12
twitterthe continuing, unmitigated failure of Vista.  Good night M$.Sep 04 16:13
wallclimberWhat will happen to MS if Win7 is a failure too?Sep 04 16:15
wallclimberI think they'll never admit it's a failure...but do they have another OS being worked on now?Sep 04 16:16
mib_3425probably the same as what happend with Vista, they made a motza from it and still are.Sep 04 16:16
schestowitzwallclimber: they already spout nonsense about "Vista 8"Sep 04 16:17
schestowitzThey call it "Windows 8"Sep 04 16:17
wallclimberhmmm...Sep 04 16:17
MinceRor they'll come up with another naming schemeSep 04 16:17
schestowitz<mib_3425> is mutexSep 04 16:17
MinceRWindows VIII?Sep 04 16:17
wallclimbervapour 8? :o)Sep 04 16:17
schestowitzThey ran out of namesSep 04 16:17
MinceRWindows 2020?Sep 04 16:17
schestowitzThey ran back to "Windows"Sep 04 16:17
twitterthey are out of money and will be gone soon.Sep 04 16:17
schestowitzTHey'll tarnish the Windows name tooSep 04 16:17
EruaranWindows: The long goodbyeSep 04 16:17
schestowitz[if that's possibleSep 04 16:17
MinceRi really hope you're right, twitterSep 04 16:17
wallclimberYes, I'm pretty good at spotting mutex...even on the Ubuntu forumsSep 04 16:17
schestowitzVista ME?Sep 04 16:18
schestowitzMidori ME?Sep 04 16:18
twitterlike Chapter 11.Sep 04 16:18
schestowitzMojavista?Sep 04 16:18
mib_3425ive never been on the Ubuntu forums, you sure your that good :)Sep 04 16:18
EruaranWindows IRGNWPSep 04 16:18
wallclimberMojaveME?Sep 04 16:18
twitterVista Chapter 11.Sep 04 16:18
wallclimberlolSep 04 16:18
EruaranIRGNWP = Its Really Good Now We PromiseSep 04 16:18
wallclimberi think they'll get some bailout bucksSep 04 16:19
wallclimberto keep them afloatSep 04 16:19
schestowitzME ME ME!!Sep 04 16:19
twitterhow much more can government spend on M$?Sep 04 16:19
EruaranUnless they can pilfer a decent OS from elsewhere, Microsoft are finished.Sep 04 16:19
twitterI don't think they will get any more.Sep 04 16:19
wallclimberthey'll spend whatever they want's all imaginary money now anywaySep 04 16:19
twitterUncle Sam will push SE Linux instead.Sep 04 16:19
twitterno need to waste imaginary money on imaginary property.Sep 04 16:20
schestowitzwallclimber: not sure m[utex]ib_3425  hangs out in Ubuntu Forums, but he was in LinsuxSep 04 16:20
schestowitzAlong with the anti-Linux crowdSep 04 16:20
EruaranThe RAAF is using Suse for their flight simulatorsSep 04 16:20
schestowitzUbuntu Forums does not tolerate trolls so wellSep 04 16:20
wallclimberI dunno...Uncle Sam seems to have a Microsoft anchor tied to his anklesSep 04 16:20
mib_3425never been on linsux either !!! gee, you're way off base :)Sep 04 16:20
wallclimberI promise, mutex is on Ubuntu forums...Sep 04 16:20
schestowitzwallclimber: not just MSFT'sSep 04 16:21
schestowitzMany companiesSep 04 16:21
mib_3425link me a single post from linsux or untuto forums that you claim is me please.Sep 04 16:21
schestowitzEven banksSep 04 16:21
schestowitzc/f bailoutSep 04 16:21
EruaranMr Dee doesn't talk to me anymoreSep 04 16:21
Eruaran:PSep 04 16:21
schestowitz"Citizens are nice, but business comes first"Sep 04 16:21
schestowitzGoblin engages with himSep 04 16:21
mib_3425Show me where, Ill give you a million dollars if you can show me one post from linsux or ubuntu forums. neither of which i have any interest in whatsoever.Sep 04 16:22
schestowitzKnowing he'sm a trollSep 04 16:22
schestowitzDoes Costa Boy still shill under that pseudonym?Sep 04 16:22
EruaranSince I started posting things like, "Trying for another free notebook Andre ?"Sep 04 16:22
EruaranHe dunna wanna talke to meSep 04 16:22
Eruaran:)Sep 04 16:22
*#boycottnovell :You need to be a channel operator to do thatSep 04 16:23
*#boycottnovell :You need to be a channel operator to do thatSep 04 16:23
schestowitzHe was angry at meSep 04 16:23
schestowitzVery angrySep 04 16:23
schestowitzNot cause I liedSep 04 16:23
schestowitzHe said he didn't like my attitudeSep 04 16:23
EruaranlolSep 04 16:23
schestowitzI guess I need to expose shills by phoning them firstSep 04 16:23
schestowitzY'know, to get *their* side of the storySep 04 16:24
EruaranHe was on a story the other day trying to turn an article about Nokia's N900 into a Windows 7 marketing opportunity..Sep 04 16:25
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] Why #Apple Owes Great Credit to #GNU #Linux 04 16:31
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] Misconceptions About #Desktop #Usability and How They Are Used for #FUD 04 16:32
*_Hicham_ (n=chatzill@ has joined #boycottnovellSep 04 16:32
mib_3425I do hang around of PhysicsForum sometimes if that counts, it even has a software and IT section in it. It's a good site, with lots of facts.Sep 04 16:32
schestowitzEruaran: hehe.Sep 04 16:32
schestowitzTypicalSep 04 16:32
schestowitzNokia N900 has some nice 3d effectsSep 04 16:33
schestowitzIt challenges ALL the phonesSep 04 16:33
schestowitzThe challenge it has now is 3rd party s/wSep 04 16:33
EruaranIt looks pretty niceSep 04 16:33
_Hicham_schestowitz : compiz on Nokia ?Sep 04 16:33
EruaranMaemoSep 04 16:33
schestowitzmib_3425: you don't like us and you don't like the topicSep 04 16:33
schestowitzWhy are you here?Sep 04 16:33
schestowitzAnd why wrestle to escape filters?Sep 04 16:33
schestowitzI'm not spending my time in Windows forumsSep 04 16:33
mib_3425it's interesting to read, and why not ?Sep 04 16:33
schestowitzOr forums of people whom I dislikeSep 04 16:34
schestowitzIt makes both sides uneasySep 04 16:34
schestowitzI ask you politely to leave us aloneSep 04 16:34
mib_3425you have a problem with someone who casts a balanced eye ?Sep 04 16:34
schestowitzFinding MaemoSep 04 16:34
_Hicham_LEAVE US ALONESep 04 16:34
mib_3425Do I have to be biased to stay here?Sep 04 16:34
schestowitzI know the shillers defenseSep 04 16:35
schestowitzSeen it for yearsSep 04 16:35
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] #GNU #Linux -only Shop Makes More GNU/Linux Switchers 04 16:35
schestowitzThey say "they add balance"Sep 04 16:35
mib_3425and we do, and keep some of the more outragious claims in check,Sep 04 16:35
mib_3425because you may think someone may actually check, do you find that a problemSep 04 16:35
schestowitzmutex: you can fling manure in linsuxSep 04 16:37
schestowitzTHey, unlike us, might appreciate it, tooSep 04 16:37
mib_3425have I dont that today ?Sep 04 16:37
_Hicham_are u sure he is mutex ?Sep 04 16:37
schestowitz"Petty troll" trick]Sep 04 16:37
mib_3425I do not think ive mentioned the "L" word at allSep 04 16:37
schestowitzTry to be seen as innocentSep 04 16:37
EruaranA shill is by definition unbalanced.Sep 04 16:37
schestowitzAnother one from the HandbookSep 04 16:38
schestowitz"I'm just adding balance"... "I'm so polite"... "why you haterz!!|"Sep 04 16:38
__cmm, sorry, this is getting way too paranoid for meSep 04 16:38
schestowitz_Hicham_: he admitted itSep 04 16:38
mib_3425yes, it is :)Sep 04 16:38
__cseriously?  You guys think you're being stalked by some dude named Mutex?Sep 04 16:38
schestowitzIt's himSep 04 16:39
schestowitzHe admitted itSep 04 16:39
schestowitzHe was banned like 20 times alreadySep 04 16:39
mib_3425even if it is,, so what ?Sep 04 16:39
schestowitzHeheSep 04 16:39
mib_3425and it's notSep 04 16:39
__cmib_3425: seriously?  You stalk these guys?Sep 04 16:39
mib_3425I dont think so.Sep 04 16:39
__cmib_3425: 'cos if so, you need to find a healthier hobbySep 04 16:39
Eruarana shill is by definition, unhealthy :PSep 04 16:40
schestowitzTrue. We should really bring snacks and cushion for our neughbour trollsSep 04 16:40
*__c shrugsSep 04 16:40
__che doesn't seem to be admitting it now.Sep 04 16:40
schestowitzI should be careful not to talk about "propaganda" againSep 04 16:41
schestowitzOr else Mutex will accuse me of something "Nazi" againSep 04 16:41
mib_3425did mutex accuse you of something "Nazi" ?? Ive never done that so it cant be me, whoever he is.Sep 04 16:42
Diablo-D3propaganda is funSep 04 16:43
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[davidgerard] Crazy Loop "Ma Ma Ma" - one of the guys who did "Dragostea Din Tei". Has the earworm factor. 04 16:45
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] Power of the #Linux Command Line Available with #GUI Too 04 16:45
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] Advise for Advancing #GNU #Linux in the Eyes of Less Technical Folks: 04 16:46
schestowitz__c: you don't need to PM meSep 04 16:47
schestowitzI'm right hereSep 04 16:47
schestowitzMutex is the only one to use the trick of mibSep 04 16:47
schestowitzmib is banned in freenodeSep 04 16:47
schestowitzHe's using this trick to hide himselfSep 04 16:47
schestowitzThus just giving himself awaySep 04 16:47
schestowitzAnd he's on the same IPs as beforeSep 04 16:47
schestowitzPLUS, he implicitly admitted it's himSep 04 16:48
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] #Padova Technologies Bets on GNU/Linux Clusters 04 16:48
mib_3425im on dynamic IP it changes all the time.Sep 04 16:48
*tacone (n=Adium@ has joined #boycottnovellSep 04 16:48
schestowitzHe's wasting people's time hereSep 04 16:48
schestowitzI'm done on thatSep 04 16:48
__cschestowitz: I like to take etiquette-related discussions to a side-channel, it avoids potential embarrassment ^_^.Sep 04 16:48
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] How the Latest #Linux Makes the #Desktop Experience Better 04 16:54
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] #Mesa 7.5.1 is Released 04 16:57
wallclimberWell, i cannot find the thread in the Ubuntu forums that I was making reference to - have been searching.Sep 04 16:57
wallclimberhowever, it was back when the subject of mono was a hot topic, and there was one thread in particular that got very hostileSep 04 16:58
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] New Release of Wine Linux runs Windows games too. The same cannot be said about Windows (running Linux games/apps).Sep 04 16:59
wallclimberon the Ubuntu forum.  one of the instigators was named mutex, with a variation, I think the "x" was capitalizedSep 04 16:59
mib_3425never been there, and I dont have strong feeling's about mono either way, or use it.Sep 04 16:59
wallclimberbut one thing I know about mutex is that he/she misspells certain words matter where they post, it'sSep 04 17:00
wallclimbersomething that shows up eventually...Sep 04 17:00
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] K Desktop Environment Meeting to Take Place in Linus' Birth Country #kdeSep 04 17:01
__cwhich is the weird thing -- I've been hanging out here all day to hear about Mono, and so far there's barely been anything.Sep 04 17:01
wallclimbercan't prove it, but i know it when i see it...which means (since I can't prove it) i won't talk about it anymore...i apologise...but i will also keep searching for those commentsSep 04 17:01
wallclimberand I WILL find themSep 04 17:02
schestowitz__c: Mono is not a major issue hereSep 04 17:02
__cLots about Microsoft (who, I can gather, is unpopular in these-here-parts), nothing about Mono.  Or Novell, for that matter ...Sep 04 17:02
schestowitzIt's one among manySep 04 17:02
*__c was misledSep 04 17:02
schestowitzFS is the main oneSep 04 17:02
schestowitzSometimes politics and stuffSep 04 17:02
_Hicham_Mono does have commercial supportSep 04 17:04
_Hicham_they plan to port Nasa World Wind to MonoSep 04 17:04
_Hicham_Miguel is ambitious about thatSep 04 17:04
_Hicham_since Google Earth is closed sourceSep 04 17:05
wallclimberargh...I'm sorry i mentioned the mono word...didn't mean to get that conversation started again...i better go back to workSep 04 17:05
*wallclimber has quit ("Ex-Chat")Sep 04 17:06
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] #Fermilab and #CERN Go with #RedHat Enterprise #Linux 04 17:09
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[davidgerard] TortoiseGit is being written for Windows Git users 04 17:10
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] New Red Hat Has Good Virtualisation Built in 04 17:10
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] #GateIN is Launched by #RedHat in #Summit 04 17:15
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] Red Hat Insists Oracle is Bad for Freedom, EU Blocks MySQL Acquisition for Now 04 17:16
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] #RedHat Seemingly Willing to Reform #FogComputing 04 17:17
__cWell, that would be why I'm hardly interested in the conversation.Sep 04 17:18
__cOK, bye.Sep 04 17:19
*__c has quit ("so long")Sep 04 17:19
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] A Glimpse at New #Canonical Strategies with #Ubuntu #Linux 04 17:20
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] #Ubuntu #GNU #Linux 9.10 Reaches Fifth Alpha, Previews Posted 04 17:21
*ThistleWeb ( has joined #boycottnovellSep 04 17:21
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] #Ubuntu #GNU #Linux Network Install Gets a New Face 04 17:22
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] LXDE-based Ubuntu Goes Public How long before Canonical demands a name change?Sep 04 17:28
*jono (n=jono@ubuntu/member/jono) has joined #boycottnovellSep 04 17:29
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] #Eightcore #PowerPC Good News for #Linux (Rich #Architecture Support) 04 17:30
*neighborlee (n=neighbor@unaffiliated/neighborlee) has joined #boycottnovellSep 04 17:30
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] Google's #Linux Efforts Expand Further 04 17:31
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[popey] Oh dear @financialtimes 04 17:34
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] New #Linux #Devices from #Archos to Look "Slick" 04 17:35
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] New "Personal Internet Devices" to Run Just #Linux 04 17:36
schestowitzjono: pingSep 04 17:36
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] #Nokia and #Sharp Show #Linux Favouritism 04 17:37
jonoheya schestowitzSep 04 17:37
schestowitzjono: did you hear of Lubuntu?Sep 04 17:37
schestowitzAre they permitted access to trademarks?Sep 04 17:38
jonono?Sep 04 17:38
jonowhat is it?Sep 04 17:38
schestowitz 04 17:38
schestowitz 04 17:38
schestowitz 04 17:38
jonoahhh yesSep 04 17:38
jonoI did see thatSep 04 17:38
schestowitzMight be early enough to prevent a fussSep 04 17:38
schestowitzLike Satanic EditionSep 04 17:38
jonoour trademark policy is pretty generous to ensure the community can make use of trademarks 04 17:39
jonobut derivatives can'tSep 04 17:39
jonoas it is not actually ubuntuSep 04 17:39
jonoits LubuntuSep 04 17:39
jonoare they using the trademark, schestowitz ?Sep 04 17:39
schestowitzI don't mind persaonallySep 04 17:39
ThistleWebloo-buntu? a distro for loo's?Sep 04 17:39
jonoThistleWeb, heheSep 04 17:39
schestowitzJust occurred to me that folks might think it's like kubuntuSep 04 17:39
ThistleWebwonder if it's brown?Sep 04 17:39
jonoThistleWeb, that would be...shit...Sep 04 17:40
jonoba-dum tish!Sep 04 17:40
schestowitzi.e. Canonical's edu|k|ubuntu for lxdeSep 04 17:40
ThistleWebindeedy lolSep 04 17:40
jonoschestowitz,  it seems they dont use the trademarks, so we don't care :)Sep 04 17:40
schestowitzUbuntu is not brownSep 04 17:40
schestowitzit's oranceSep 04 17:40
schestowitz*orangeSep 04 17:40
jonowe love derivatives, shows the power of free software :)Sep 04 17:40
schestowitzEarly vers used to be brownSep 04 17:40
ThistleWebbeige, very trendy in the 70's along with flares, handlebar taches and flowery wallpaperSep 04 17:41
jonomost ubuntu people now use black themesSep 04 17:41
schestowitzjono: yes, the derivative maps shows massive triangulation 'round the debian sideSep 04 17:41
schestowitz*derivatives mapSep 04 17:41
jonoschestowitz, debian is total rock and roll for that :)Sep 04 17:41
jonoschestowitz, so hows things dude, not chatted for a while?Sep 04 17:41
schestowitzThere's room for everyoneSep 04 17:41
schestowitzCannibalisation is xp vs VistaSep 04 17:42
schestowitzjono: it's OK. Rainy here today.Sep 04 17:42
tessierAnything interesting happening in bn-land?Sep 04 17:42
*tessier needs some rain hereSep 04 17:42
jonoschestowitz, one of the reasons I moved away lolSep 04 17:42
tessierAs usual, it's the end of summer and everything is burning down.Sep 04 17:42
schestowitzTanks invaded bn-land and stole the flags !Sep 04 17:42
schestowitzjono: yeah, well... you have fired nowSep 04 17:43
schestowitzRMS says it's global warming-relatedSep 04 17:43
schestowitztessier, jono and BN server are in the same areaSep 04 17:43
ThistleWebit's in jono's house?Sep 04 17:43
ThistleWebdoes he know?Sep 04 17:44
jonoschestowitz, heheSep 04 17:44
jonoschestowitz, fires are well away from where I liveSep 04 17:44
schestowitzWhen it rains we want sun, when it's sunny we want rain. Maybe we just don't pray enoughSep 04 17:44
schestowitzThistleWeb: sheeshSep 04 17:44
schestowitzWe r00ted himSep 04 17:44
schestowitz:-pSep 04 17:45
neighborleeso did debian actually solve the debian women travesty I wonder,,I lost track of thatSep 04 17:45
ThistleWeblolSep 04 17:45
jonoschestowitz, brits are never happy about weather, its the way we rollSep 04 17:46
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] Free Software Experiences Good Period 04 17:50
schestowitzjono: is anyone?Sep 04 17:51
schestowitzNeighbour's lawn syndromeSep 04 17:51
ThistleWebcountries that enjoy all yr round warm weather now will be too hot for comfort in years to comeSep 04 17:51
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] New Camera Built the Free Software Way 04 17:52
ThistleWebsome places will become uninhabitableSep 04 17:52
jonoschestowitz, californians are :)Sep 04 17:52
schestowitzThistleWeb: some already areSep 04 17:52
ThistleWebyep, it'll get worse as time goes onSep 04 17:53
schestowitzDon't worry, we'll build higher :-)Sep 04 17:53
ThistleWebmeaning more temperate places will be more sought afterSep 04 17:53
ThistleWebif it's not land it's water; any excuse for man to kill manSep 04 17:53
schestowitzMaybe we can grow gillsSep 04 17:54
schestowitzThen move to the oceanSep 04 17:54
ThistleWebgiliweed FTWSep 04 17:54
schestowitzIt has twice the capacitySep 04 17:54
schestowitzThen we can hasten global warmingSep 04 17:54
schestowitzY'know, to get more waterSep 04 17:54
*schestowitz could swear he saw men with gills in some cartoonsSep 04 17:55
ThistleWebthe goblet of fire was an exampleSep 04 17:56
ThistleWebwell, the endtimers think all the global warming is all foretold and that it's getting closer until the hippy comes back with his super sandles and saves themSep 04 17:57
ThistleWebthe more mankind destroys the planet, the quicker he comes back and rewards them for itSep 04 17:58
neighborleespoken like a true athiest ? ;)Sep 04 17:58
ThistleWeblolSep 04 17:59
ThistleWebty, maybe I should start preachingSep 04 17:59
neighborleelolSep 04 18:00
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] Events Promoting Free Software Come Shortly 04 18:00
ThistleWebroll a die to pick which God I'm promoting that daySep 04 18:00
*jono has quit ("Later, Skater")Sep 04 18:00
ThistleWebtry and tempt the red dude to possess my hand when I rol itSep 04 18:00
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] Open-Xchange Integrates with Telephony 04 18:01
ThistleWebfor some reason I thought of the Red Guy from Cow & ChickenSep 04 18:01
*sanskumar (n=Sans@ has joined #boycottnovellSep 04 18:02
*jono (n=jono@ubuntu/member/jono) has joined #boycottnovellSep 04 18:04
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] #Diebold Dumps Its #Proprietary Failure That It Called "Voting Machine" 04 18:05
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] #IntellectualMonopolies Give up to the #Internet 04 18:07
_Hicham_schestowitz : no IE in Windows 7 in Europe ?Sep 04 18:07
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] Microsoft Shows It is Above the Law 04 18:09
tessierschestowitz: Same area? What do you mean?Sep 04 18:09
*magentar ( has joined #boycottnovellSep 04 18:10
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] Why #IntellectualMonopolies Should be Abolished in #China and #India 04 18:11
_Hicham_schestowitz is above the lawSep 04 18:12
schestowitzIt's reserve evolution. Amphibians could at least live in both land and water.Sep 04 18:12
schestowitz_Hicham_: Yes IESep 04 18:12
schestowitzMicrosoft lovs to slink awaySep 04 18:12
schestowitztessier: California/Bay AreaSep 04 18:13
schestowitzJono (Ubuntu community director) left the UK for the beach in the wild westSep 04 18:13
_Hicham_schestowitz : will you buy Windows 7 E ?Sep 04 18:14
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] #SCO Won't Talk to #LinuxFoundation Site 04 18:14
schestowitz_Hicham_: what do you think? :-)Sep 04 18:14
*ThistleWeb has quit ("Ex-Chat")Sep 04 18:14
_Hicham_schestowitz : Windows 7 maybe will offer you to install the DE of your choice ( KDE for Windows)Sep 04 18:15
schestowitzbrb phoneSep 04 18:17
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] New Version of Shuttle PC Runs GNU/Linux Only 04 18:18
sebsebseb_Hicham_: What?Sep 04 18:20
sebsebseb_Hicham_: also KDE for Windows is only, some of the programs ported to WindowsSep 04 18:21
_Hicham_what are the other programs ported to Windows ?Sep 04 18:21
sebsebseb_Hicham_: Who  cares loads anyway?   Windows doesn't exactly deserve to have loads of good  Linux/Unix software ported to it,  plus there are plenty of  Windows only programs out there, that you may be able to get working in Wine.Sep 04 18:23
_Hicham_i think that porting Windows Libraries to Linux is the keySep 04 18:24
sebsebseb_Hicham_: you mean Mono?Sep 04 18:24
_Hicham_Mono is just .NETSep 04 18:24
_Hicham_I am talking about porting the whole Win32 APISep 04 18:24
_Hicham_then, MFCSep 04 18:25
sebsebseb_Hicham_: well yes the more  Windows programs that will work nicely  just like that in Wine and stuff like that, the betterSep 04 18:25
_Hicham_Wine doesn't offer good integration with the host systemSep 04 18:25
_Hicham_programs run, but are not well integratedSep 04 18:25
sebsebsebideally opensource/freesoftware should mainly be used :)  ,but  to gain a market share, the more closed source  software  from the Windows World that will work on Desktop Linux properly, is a good thingSep 04 18:25
_Hicham_I agreeSep 04 18:26
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] Microsoft Trains Best Buy Employees for Anti-GNU/Linux 04 18:26
sebsebseboh you mean  Windows programs,  being natively ported to Linux?Sep 04 18:26
_Hicham_yesSep 04 18:26
sebsebsebwell a lot of those companies and such are going to make excuses for why they don't make Linux versionsSep 04 18:26
sebsebsebDesktop Linux does not have enough market share, for example as an excuseSep 04 18:26
_Hicham_they will do if it is just a matter of recompilingSep 04 18:26
sebsebsebso  there programs working well in Wine, is better than not at allSep 04 18:26
_Hicham_I agreeSep 04 18:27
sebsebsebapparantly Microsoft pay or sometimes pay,  games companies to make for Directx, which doesn't helpSep 04 18:28
sebsebseb_Hicham_: native  first  :)   then if there isn't a good enough program for what is being done,  Wine or commercial versions of it,  and then   Windows virtual machine,  and then if no luck there say some fancy 3D Windows game or something,  psyical  Windows installSep 04 18:29
sebsebseb_Hicham_: that's how I would do itSep 04 18:29
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] Microsoft Has "Critical", "Critical", "Critical", "Critical", and "Critical", Flaw 04 18:30
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] Microsoft is Bribing Some More for People to Hype up Vista 7 04 18:31
schestowitzVista 7: piece of rubbish... nice bribes (schwag), though.Sep 04 18:31
schestowitz_Hicham_: back to it:Sep 04 18:31
schestowitzVista 7 has just one DESep 04 18:31
schestowitzIt hardly has hooks for anySep 04 18:32
schestowitzNo screen manager like gdm or kdmSep 04 18:32
sebsebsebschestowitz: yeah  and  Ubuntu with Ext4 boots up so much faster :DSep 04 18:32
sebsebsebschestowitz: remember that video I gave you the link forSep 04 18:33
schestowitzYesSep 04 18:33
schestowitzLeague of its ownSep 04 18:33
schestowitzNot fairSep 04 18:33
schestowitzIntel develops Linux for itSep 04 18:33
schestowitzWindows is made by MicrosoftSep 04 18:34
schestowitzSo no optimisation for h/w, hardlySep 04 18:34
schestowitzMicrosoft knows that Linux arch is aheadSep 04 18:34
schestowitzBut people are gullibleSep 04 18:34
sebsebsebyeah seems soSep 04 18:34
schestowitzThey fall for words like "streamlined", "federated", "usability", "premium", "cutting-edge", "advanced", "r&d".......Sep 04 18:35
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Diablo-D3lololSep 04 18:36
Diablo-D3you know what words I like?Sep 04 18:36
sebsebsebschestowitz: yep  most computer users not knowing much about them is half the problem,   the other half being for example  OEM's not making it clear to all customers,  that they have a choice,  not just Windows  or  Mac OS X,  but Desktop Linux as wellSep 04 18:36
Diablo-D3"free"Sep 04 18:36
sebsebsebschestowitz: well yeah and  a lot of OEM's don't pre install  Desktop Linux,  but that's starting to changeSep 04 18:37
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[nickballard] #Lubuntu: It Slides Through Your CircuitsSep 04 18:37
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[nickballard] first lubuntu test iso available 04 18:37
sebsebsebschestowitz: and of course   loads of software that many people want to use, isn't made for Desktop Linux at the moment, because Microsoft  gained  most of that market in the 90's.Sep 04 18:39
sebsebsebwe know about that kind of stuff, but they  the average consumer,  they don't, normalleySep 04 18:40
sebsebseband for example in most schools at the moment, people don't learn anything about Linux, at the moment, which is ashameSep 04 18:41
sebsebsebMicrosoft have made a lot of money,  because of computer ignoranceSep 04 18:41
sebsebseband vender lock inSep 04 18:41
_Hicham_let make money like MS did schestowitzSep 04 18:42
schestowitzsebsebseb: they do in some countries (Brazil, soon Russia)Sep 04 18:44
schestowitz_Hicham_: it's about what customers want, not moneySep 04 18:45
schestowitzSame with media companiesSep 04 18:45
schestowitzCoercing customers annoys themSep 04 18:45
schestowitzMPAA/RIAA monster is disliked by its own customers, just like with MicrosoftSep 04 18:45
_Hicham_let us screw customers like MS doSep 04 18:45
schestowitzGood customer are those that /choose/ the productSep 04 18:45
_Hicham_a lot of people love MSSep 04 18:45
schestowitzDepends whereSep 04 18:45
sebsebsebschestowitz: ok, but all of the richer nations are locked into  Microsoft big time :(Sep 04 18:46
schestowitzMany hate WindowsSep 04 18:46
schestowitzBSODs and stuffSep 04 18:46
schestowitzEsp. when they see Linux and MacsSep 04 18:46
schestowitzThey get annoyedSep 04 18:46
_Hicham_Good customer for MS is a dumb oneSep 04 18:46
schestowitzThey see they were denied choiceSep 04 18:46
sebsebseb_Hicham_: hehSep 04 18:46
schestowitzsebsebseb: yes, Microsoft is profit-drivenSep 04 18:46
schestowitzIt doesn't mind Brazil all that muchSep 04 18:46
schestowitzShareholders can't steal much from these peopleSep 04 18:46
sebsebsebschestowitz: yeah hence why they have the starter edition for the developing world, where you can only run like three apps at onceSep 04 18:46
sebsebsebschestowitz: and also why they mainly only care about big companies, locking them in yeahSep 04 18:47
sebsebsebas for the consumer wellSep 04 18:47
schestowitzMicrosoff doesn't give a * about poor peopleSep 04 18:47
sebsebsebloads of them buy Microsoft anywaySep 04 18:47
schestowitzMany companies don't, to be fairSep 04 18:47
schestowitzBut FS is differentSep 04 18:47
schestowitzIt's made by people for peopleSep 04 18:47
sebsebsebyepSep 04 18:47
_Hicham_FS is the futureSep 04 18:47
schestowitzNothing to do with how wealthy one isSep 04 18:47
_Hicham_FS=SchestowitzSep 04 18:47
schestowitzSo it's empowering to continents like AfricaSep 04 18:47
schestowitzThough many don't realise itSep 04 18:48
_Hicham_FS=Full SpeedSep 04 18:48
schestowitzF* S*Sep 04 18:48
_Hicham_schestowitz : AfiSep 04 18:49
sebsebsebI would rather use  software made by developers, that probably actsauly care about having me as a userSep 04 18:49
sebsebseband other usersSep 04 18:49
_Hicham_Africa is not thirld worldSep 04 18:49
*sanskumar has quit ("Leaving")Sep 04 18:49
sebsebsebso  Microsoft nahSep 04 18:49
sebsebsebApple nahSep 04 18:49
sebsebsebUbuntu?   well I hope soSep 04 18:49
schestowitz_Hicham_: I'm R.S.S., not .F.S.Sep 04 18:50
sebsebsebCanonical  do they actsaully care about  the desktop users properly hmmSep 04 18:50
schestowitzI should rename to Fred :-)Sep 04 18:50
schestowitz_Hicham_: third world is defined by wealth, not cultureSep 04 18:50
schestowitzHad ethics been the yardstick, third world would be int he northSep 04 18:50
sebsebsebyes they will make money from supourting servers and that mainly,  but I guess they  care about  Ubuntu  gaining say 20% of  the desktop market as wellSep 04 18:50
schestowitzAs in, less civilised menSep 04 18:51
schestowitzsebsebseb: as long as it's free (libre)Sep 04 18:51
schestowitzThey have many to compete withSep 04 18:51
schestowitzMint is a contenderSep 04 18:51
sebsebsebsome people are worried though, that if Ubuntu  was to gain  a very big market share,   that a lot of companies  would  start making for only UbuntuSep 04 18:51
schestowitzIt runs circles around them in some waySep 04 18:51
sebsebseband  well Windows and Mac I guess as wellSep 04 18:51
sebsebseb,but I mean they won't be making for other distros, only UbuntuSep 04 18:52
schestowitzThere's LSBSep 04 18:52
schestowitzThey might say 'support Ubuntu", but it'll support the restSep 04 18:52
schestowitz*"supportsSep 04 18:52
sebsebsebwell not all distros are LSB onesSep 04 18:52
schestowitzUnless it's binarySep 04 18:52
schestowitzEven then you have conversion tools like AlienSep 04 18:52
sebsebseb,but if they make for LSB,  then  it should work on a few distros or moreSep 04 18:52
sebsebsebschestowitz: which apparantly is dangerous in UbuntuSep 04 18:54
_Hicham_lsb certification doesn't mean anythingSep 04 18:54
sebsebseb_Hicham_: What about LPI?Sep 04 18:55
sebsebseboh you meant for programsSep 04 18:55
schestowitzThat's differnetSep 04 18:55
sebsebsebnot peopleSep 04 18:55
schestowitzIt's trainingSep 04 18:55
_Hicham_one of the major problems between linux distros is package managementSep 04 18:55
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] Linux loves babies (Video) 04 18:56
_Hicham_schestowitz wants to have 50 babiesSep 04 18:56
_Hicham_just like BinLaden's fatherSep 04 18:56
_Hicham_and have a lot of wivesSep 04 18:58
_Hicham_it would be great if irc can support audio and videoSep 04 19:02
_Hicham_I just got ubuntu jauntySep 04 19:08
_Hicham_nice serviceSep 04 19:08
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-BNc/#boycottnovell-[davidgerard] Music industry talks bollocks as usual, BBC notices: how 136 were spun into 7 million 04 19:21
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[popey] Next time you see me I may have less or shorter fingers than usual. Chopping up potato with a mandolin to make a rosti!Sep 04 19:39
schestowitzExtra, extra. 04 19:50
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cubezzz-laptopI just realized I can't really play video above 720x480Sep 04 20:08
cubezzz-laptopneed a nice linux based media player that plays everythingSep 04 20:09
schestowitzI use kaffeineSep 04 20:10
schestowitzkaffine.sourceforceforge iircSep 04 20:10
schestowitz*forge.netSep 04 20:11
MinceRif you mean audio, audacious plays pretty much everythingSep 04 20:11
schestowitzSince 2006Sep 04 20:11
cubezzz-laptopyeah, I was thinking as a replacement for my stand-alone dvd playerSep 04 20:11
schestowitzMinceR: he talks resSep 04 20:11
MinceRfor video, perhaps VLCSep 04 20:11
schestowitzSO vidSep 04 20:11
*wallclimber ( has joined #boycottnovellSep 04 20:11
cubezzz-laptopcan't go above 720x480 on itSep 04 20:11
schestowitzHey, wallySep 04 20:11
wallclimberPX00743 is in the mailSep 04 20:11
schestowitzCool!Sep 04 20:12
wallclimberwally?  lol I like it!Sep 04 20:12
schestowitzIt's like the filmSep 04 20:12
schestowitzIt's shorter to typeSep 04 20:12
cubezzz-laptopthis one looks interesting: 04 20:12
schestowitzI was just going to do about 5 postsSep 04 20:12
schestowitzCatching up and allSep 04 20:12
MinceR 04 20:12
wallclimberyou can call me anything, just don't call me late for dinner (sorry, old joke :)Sep 04 20:12
MinceR:)Sep 04 20:12
MinceR"Could you call me a cab?" "Of course Sir. You're a cab."Sep 04 20:13
schestowitzMinceR: something doesn't look rightSep 04 20:13 do you get to Carnagie Hall?Sep 04 20:13
MinceRcall a cab.Sep 04 20:13
wallclimber(practice, practice, practic)Sep 04 20:13
MinceRoh.Sep 04 20:14
schestowitzOh, I get it... he has more wrinkles than in realitySep 04 20:14
schestowitzI knew there was something funny in that picSep 04 20:14
wallclimberwhat pic?Sep 04 20:14
MinceRi doubt that someone edited some additional wrinkles on itSep 04 20:14
schestowitzwallclimber: 4chanSep 04 20:14
schestowitzhumourSep 04 20:14
wallclimberi never go thereSep 04 20:14
schestowitzThe URL does worry a bitSep 04 20:14
Diablo-D3 04 20:15
schestowitzCould be one of those gaotses from /.Sep 04 20:15
wallclimberi'm too grumpy for humour, and i intend to stay grumpy  lolSep 04 20:15
schestowitzHumour is goodSep 04 20:15
schestowitzIt's deviating from expectationSep 04 20:15
wallclimbernot when you're grumpySep 04 20:15
schestowitzDependsSep 04 20:15
wallclimber (just kidding)Sep 04 20:16
cubezzz-laptopSagan was a good popularizer of AstronomySep 04 20:16
wallclimberdo you ever read the Maxine cards?  she is soooo meSep 04 20:16
cubezzz-laptopbeen a long time since I've watched CosmosSep 04 20:16
schestowitzI'm still watching CosmasSep 04 20:16
schestowitzEpisode 8 nowSep 04 20:16
schestowitzIt's not astrologySep 04 20:16
wallclimberthe old Carl Sagan series?Sep 04 20:16
schestowitzIt's also chemistry, biology, science in general...Sep 04 20:16
schestowitzwallclimber: yeah, it's all on YouTubeSep 04 20:17
wallclimberi used to watch that with my sonSep 04 20:17
wallclimberi'm glad it's available onlineSep 04 20:17
schestowitzNow kids are taught that the Grand Canyon is no more than 6000 yrs oldSep 04 20:18
schestowitzI guess those craters are there just "to test our faith"Sep 04 20:18
wallclimbermeh...most kids are smarter than that, don't you think?Sep 04 20:18
schestowitzOr rather the volcanic-imposed landscapeSep 04 20:18
cubezzz-laptopnot to mention the trilobite fossils :)Sep 04 20:18
DaemonFCdoh!Sep 04 20:18
schestowitzNot sure if it had many asteroids/comets hit itSep 04 20:18
DaemonFCI found out why 2.6.31-rc8 didn't recognize my webcamSep 04 20:18
schestowitzwallclimber: most kids are not, I worrySep 04 20:19
DaemonFCsomeone moved "multimedia devices" to a different section and disabled it by default :PSep 04 20:19
schestowitzFairy tale is more appealingSep 04 20:19
wallclimberwhy do you say that?Sep 04 20:19
cubezzz-laptopIn Canada we have David Suzuki to popularize scienceSep 04 20:19
schestowitzThen you seek justificationsSep 04 20:19
schestowitzLike for slavery that's self-servingSep 04 20:19
schestowitzOr proprietary softwareSep 04 20:19
schestowitzOr VistaSep 04 20:19
schestowitzLike that cartoon with the spiky chairSep 04 20:19
cubezzz-laptopwe have a new type of slave nowadays: The mind slaveSep 04 20:19
cubezzz-laptoppeople are mind slaves to MicrosoftSep 04 20:20
schestowitzI recently heard of Suzuki for some reasonSep 04 20:20
schestowitzDid he die or something?Sep 04 20:20
schestowitzI can't recall now, but something major happened with SuzukiSep 04 20:20
cubezzz-laptopI don't think soSep 04 20:20
wallclimberi've found most kids (to me that's anyone under 40 :) are pretty smart these daysSep 04 20:20
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wallclimbera lot of teachers are dingbats thoughSep 04 20:20
cubezzz-laptopinformation is easier to get now, yesSep 04 20:20
schestowitzYesSep 04 20:21
schestowitzAlso disinfoSep 04 20:21
schestowitzThat's the problemSep 04 20:21
schestowitzLike the whole UFO obsessionSep 04 20:21
cubezzz-laptopwikipedia says he's 73, wowSep 04 20:21
cubezzz-laptopdidn't realize he was that oldSep 04 20:21
cubezzz-laptopschestowitz, I saw a UFO! :)Sep 04 20:21
wallclimberpersonally, i think there's a huge push these days to make everyone believe they are stupid.  I hate it.Sep 04 20:22
cubezzz-laptoponly one time thoughSep 04 20:22
wallclimbermaybe if they are told they are stupid often enough they will believe itSep 04 20:22
cubezzz-laptopI'm sorry but people are computer stupid stillSep 04 20:22
cubezzz-laptopsadlySep 04 20:22
wallclimberpeople are just different, and they learn at dofferent levels and speeds, but eventually, they do learnSep 04 20:23
MinceRnot all people doSep 04 20:23
wallclimberthey are only computer stupid because they've been taught to be...we do learn eventuallySep 04 20:23
wallclimberit's funny, i've had people my age ask me to help them with their computers, because their kids just treat them like they are stupid and it embarrasses themSep 04 20:24
cubezzz-laptopyou could say a lot of people don't reach their full potentialSep 04 20:24
wallclimberthey just learn differently than kids doSep 04 20:24
DaemonFCI don't have a problem with proprietary software in itself, it's not like every proprietary software company has some evil ulterior motive (other than getting paid and paying their employees)Sep 04 20:24
cubezzz-laptopsome older ones (I'm talking over 80) are actually pretty good on computersSep 04 20:25
DaemonFCwhat I don't like are DRM and companies that hoard old programs that aren't even useful to them anymoreSep 04 20:25
cubezzz-laptopnot many I admitSep 04 20:25
DaemonFCstuff they did 10 years ago that will never make any more money and wouldn't even tip off any trade secrets about their new stuffSep 04 20:25
wallclimberwell, depending on how you judge "full potential", some might say the same for me, because i spent the first 42 years of my life raising kidsSep 04 20:25
wallclimberi didn't even touch a computer until i was over 40.Sep 04 20:26
cubezzz-laptopXP caches a lot of crap I noticedSep 04 20:26
cubezzz-laptopwallclimber, now old are you now?Sep 04 20:26
wallclimbermaybe our full potential doesn't get reached, ever...we just grow until we die...Sep 04 20:26
DaemonFCfree software works when you wants something to be incredibly popular and have lots of developers even though it might not make you any money at the momentSep 04 20:26
schestowitzcubezzz: I know, I know.... the UFOSep 04 20:26
DaemonFCit's how things like Linux and Firefox get off the ground without huge companies behind them and billions of dollars to work on it themselvesSep 04 20:27 ain't polite to ask a girl her age...but i'm 60-ish...Sep 04 20:27
wallclimbergive or take a few yearsSep 04 20:27
cubezzz-laptopah, ok :)Sep 04 20:27
wallclimberso, my potential hasn't been reached yetSep 04 20:28
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schestowitzThe human race is about 150k years oldSep 04 20:28
schestowitzWe're very youngSep 04 20:28
DaemonFCIt benefits Firefox because the only real money they take in is whatever Google and Yahoo pay them or maybe if someone bus a t-shirtSep 04 20:28
cubezzz-laptopI'm hoping to reach 200 :)Sep 04 20:28
schestowitzGeneration-based view anywaySep 04 20:28
wallclimberi hope you reach 200 too! and have every day a healthy oneSep 04 20:28
DaemonFCit doesn't work for Opera because what they have works well on mobile phones and devices and open sourcing it would just make them compete with themselvesSep 04 20:28
schestowitzLet's see if advancement makes us more (or less) resilient than those mighty multi-tonne lizardsSep 04 20:29
DaemonFCbut you'll notice there's no proprietary extensions in Opera's rendering engine, no DRMSep 04 20:29
schestowitzwallclimber: I seem to be in OK shapeSep 04 20:29
DaemonFCnothing that forces you to install itSep 04 20:29
wallclimbermulti-ton lizards?  you mean Microsoft?Sep 04 20:29
schestowitzMy eyesight is still the best in my familySep 04 20:29
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schestowitzNo tooth fillings, everSep 04 20:29
cubezzz-laptopI'm over 40 now, I gave up a lot of things: pizza, pretty much all fast foodSep 04 20:29
schestowitzwallclimber: same...Sep 04 20:30
schestowitzLet me find the pictureSep 04 20:30
schestowitzMicrosoft as dino..Sep 04 20:30
wallclimberwell, i've always been active and healthy, but time does make some changes you won't be able to controlSep 04 20:30
schestowitz 04 20:30
cubezzz-laptopthe interesting thing is a lot of Linux peeps are vegetarians which surprised meSep 04 20:30
schestowitzIronically, Microsoft used dinos to characterise othersSep 04 20:30
schestowitzHypocritesSep 04 20:30
Chips_B_MalroyHi all,Sep 04 20:31
wallclimberi have a cartoon with Microsoft as a big dinosour...i should dig that up, it was a hootSep 04 20:31
schestowitzwallclimber: we're all lucky to be alive in the first placeSep 04 20:31
schestowitzIt's we who were the lucky onesSep 04 20:31
schestowitzChips_B_Malroy: what's up?Sep 04 20:31
schestowitzSeen Nick's latest?Sep 04 20:32
schestowitzHe's very shameless.Sep 04 20:32
schestowitzI might drop the RSS feed if it weren't so amusingSep 04 20:32
schestowitzI always scroll downSep 04 20:32
Chips_B_MalroyI believe MS-Watch is censoring comments, have had 2 comments that have never been posted.  One had a link to BN tooSep 04 20:32
schestowitzI hope to find your comments thereSep 04 20:32
schestowitzHow long ago was it?Sep 04 20:32
schestowitzMaybe he got fed upSep 04 20:32
Chips_B_MalroyThk's RoySep 04 20:32
Chips_B_MalroyThe one with the link to BN should have been up today.  So it won't be up until Monday, as nobody at MS Watch checks those on the weekend.  If it come up.Sep 04 20:34
Chips_B_MalroyAs you know, I don't every use any profanity in my postsSep 04 20:34
Chips_B_Malroyso that is not a reasonSep 04 20:34
Chips_B_MalroyThe other post was a awhile back, where Jessie Meats and the shills commented.  I made a comment about Jess not using a disclaimer, and that was illegal with the FTC.  It wasn't a nasty comment, but it never got posted as wellSep 04 20:35
_goblinhi chips!Sep 04 20:36
Chips_B_MalroyHey, I posted also a link in Nicks latest to your article, Goblin, maybe it comes out todaySep 04 20:37
cubezzz-laptopI started using computers in the late 70's, before that I could look at computers but had no accessSep 04 20:37
cubezzz-laptopmy high school got PET's in 1980, in 1979 I used punch cards :)Sep 04 20:38
Chips_B_MalroyGoblin, I posted your link, on MS watch with the comment "great minds think alike" so as to get the comment posted.Sep 04 20:39
Chips_B_Malroyso don't take offenseSep 04 20:39
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_goblinlol...Sep 04 20:39
_goblinIve just posted a comment there linking it too!Sep 04 20:39
_goblingreat minds obviously do...Sep 04 20:39
Chips_B_Malroytrying to humor Nick a little, so he won't censor most of my commentsSep 04 20:39
DaemonFCschestowitz: What can I expect from a government that hired a woman who got a "degree" from a diploma mill operating out of a roadside motel room for six figures a year to head the IT department at Homeland Security?Sep 04 20:40
Chips_B_MalroyDaemonFC> higher taxes at some pointSep 04 20:40
DaemonFCone of the scandals of the Bush years and it was eclipsed by all his other wrongdoingsSep 04 20:41
cubezzz-laptopThe Bush years will be known in the future as the 2nd Dark Ages :)Sep 04 20:42
DaemonFC 04 20:42
Chips_B_MalroyDaemonFC>  Bush is over, best to move onSep 04 20:42
DaemonFCKeith Olbermann is too optimistic when he says the Bush years will someday be known as "Why daddy went to prison"Sep 04 20:43
schestowitzLOLSep 04 20:43
schestowitzOr why uncle Sam went to warSep 04 20:44
DaemonFCschestowitz: I prefer sending them to the electric chair, but that's meSep 04 20:44
DaemonFC:)Sep 04 20:44
schestowitzBush and his apocalyptic story did not impress ChiracSep 04 20:44
cubezzz-laptopthey wasted a TON of moneySep 04 20:44
cubezzz-laptopPizza Huts in Iraq?Sep 04 20:44
ThistleWebGeorge & Sadaam, the glory yearsSep 04 20:44
schestowitzcubezzz: they have poolsSep 04 20:44
schestowitzIn the basesSep 04 20:45
schestowitzHalf a billion or so spent on one baseSep 04 20:45
schestowitzWhich means there's no intention of leavingSep 04 20:45
DaemonFCTom Ridge was on the Rachel Maddow show the other night, repeating the Bush/Cheney lies of "Blame the spies" for Iraq, but said we'd ultimately be vindicated when there was democracy in IraqSep 04 20:45
schestowitzIt's long-term occupation in strategic places at leastSep 04 20:45
ThistleWebit wasn't wasted, it went to where it was always intended to go.....into the pockets of Bush's backersSep 04 20:45
cubezzz-laptopit makes you wonder what is really going onSep 04 20:45
DaemonFCMaddow replied something like "So you're trying to retroactively sell us the Iraq War, 4,000 dead American soldiers, and trillions of dollars spent to bring democracy to Iraq?"Sep 04 20:45
schestowitzIt's not as though they'll say one day, "Ok lads, we're taking off back to the US... here are the keys.. enjoy the cinema and the swimming pools"Sep 04 20:46
DaemonFChe spent the rest of the interview tripping over himself and babblingSep 04 20:46
cubezzz-laptopschestowitz, yeahSep 04 20:46
DaemonFCthey're saying he may run for president in 2012Sep 04 20:46
DaemonFChe's weak and ineffectual even by Republican standards, so I hope he doesSep 04 20:46
ThistleWebit would be an interesting hypothetical discussion to wonder what would have happened in the run up to the war in Iraq, if the US had proper news networks, with proper journalists holding the politicians feet to the flames over half-answers and vague responsesSep 04 20:47
Chips_B_Malroy<schestowitz> Which means there's no intention of leaving"  We still have bases in Germany, in this regard, the US is not too much different than the former Soviet Union was.  But mostly the German Gov wants us to stay and spend money there, some would saySep 04 20:48
cubezzz-laptopI think we have a US base in Canada tooSep 04 20:48
ThistleWebone part of the plan was to get bases in the region, after it became awkward to stay in SaudiSep 04 20:48
DaemonFC 04 20:48
Chips_B_MalroyKuiwait of course has basesSep 04 20:49
ThistleWebthey want a presence next foor to Iran to help bring the threat of force to the tableSep 04 20:49
Chips_B_Malroyso the ones in Iraq are less neededSep 04 20:49
ThistleWeblike any peace loving nationSep 04 20:49
cubezzz-laptopNATO basesSep 04 20:50
cubezzz-laptopso the Russkies don't get us :)Sep 04 20:50
Chips_B_MalroyNato bases are almost the same thing, as most of Nato's forces are composed ofSep 04 20:51
cubezzz-laptopthe world seems more peaceful since WWII I supposeSep 04 20:51
cubezzz-laptopalways some war going on thoughSep 04 20:51
ThistleWebon the surface yesSep 04 20:51
Chips_B_Malroyit cost a lot of money, we have to borrow to support these military forcesSep 04 20:52
Chips_B_Malroymore and more, every military action must be approved almost by the ChineseSep 04 20:53
ThistleWeblike every war, the victor writes the history booksSep 04 20:53
Chips_B_MalroyyesSep 04 20:53
ThistleWebthe victor often controls the telling of the storySep 04 20:53
ThistleWebwhich parts get glossed overSep 04 20:54
ThistleWebwhich parts get exageratedSep 04 20:54
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[davidgerard] The TCP/IP Drinking Game ideal questions for your next job interview candidateSep 04 20:54
ThistleWebso any battles still ongoing can be ignored in the mediaSep 04 20:54
ThistleWebif the victors are the aggressorsSep 04 20:54
ThistleWebwhen they're found out, the media will portray them as patroitsSep 04 20:54
_goblinjust installing Glora onto a Dell laptop for a more user to the Linux base!Sep 04 20:55
Chips_B_MalroySo, I know most of you are from Europe, so I ask, if the economy falls competely apart here in the USA, and the military  has to be cut to the bone, who will step in as the world's policeman?  Is one even needed?Sep 04 20:55
Chips_B_MalroyGoblin, your lady still using Mepis or something else now?Sep 04 20:56
ThistleWebunfortunatly, every countyr around the world is dependant on the US ecconomy, so if it collapses, so will theirsSep 04 20:56
ThistleWebit'll bring us down to the same level as other failed states we've been abusing for decadesSep 04 20:57
Chips_B_Malroymaybe not as long termSep 04 20:57
ThistleWebthe US is a dual role remember, it's the world police as well as the world bullySep 04 20:57
Chips_B_Malroyits not as dependant as it was eitherSep 04 20:57
ThistleWebso we'll have a different set of problems when the US collapsesSep 04 20:57
Chips_B_MalroyTrue, its can be a bully when the person in charge makes bad decisionsSep 04 20:58
ThistleWebit'll also reap the whirlwind it's sewn for itselfSep 04 20:58
ThistleWebright now it can throw a fortune at defenseSep 04 20:58
ThistleWebwhen that money runs outSep 04 20:58
Chips_B_Malroyelecting bad leaders is a problem for any countrySep 04 20:58
ThistleWebit is yesSep 04 20:59
DaemonFCwell, there are bad leaders in every countrySep 04 20:59
wallclimberas the big businesses crumble, the smaller businesses might have a chance to grow.  the transition will be most uncomfortable, but i think it needs to happenSep 04 20:59
DaemonFCbecause there are election laws that let a group of extremists in certain places get the bad guys over the fence and into the governmentSep 04 20:59
Chips_B_Malroysadly if you look at most of the western industrial countries, they have all been influenced to some degree by the special interestsSep 04 21:00
DaemonFCBush was not the president of the United States, he was the president of less than half of themSep 04 21:00
DaemonFCso the way things work now, weight has been unduly given to hicks out in the middle of nowhereSep 04 21:00
ThistleWebone big problem with poltics in every country is the obsession by the media (and the politicians who play the media) to try to divide, left and rightSep 04 21:00
ThistleWebfar left and far right are both as damagingSep 04 21:00
ThistleWebneither is a solutionSep 04 21:00
DaemonFChe was the president of Texas, of Arkansas, of Wyoming, of Louisiana, Alabama.....Sep 04 21:01
wallclimberThistleweb, don't you think both extremes will eventually cancel each other out?Sep 04 21:01
DaemonFCpretty much all the most backwards statesSep 04 21:01
ThistleWebsome things need to be more right wing, while others need more left wing. It's about getting a balanceSep 04 21:01
schestowitzcubezzz: you sure have US bases in CanadaSep 04 21:01
Chips_B_MalroyI look at candidates that support the freedom of the peopleSep 04 21:01
DaemonFCwe need election reform in the way of the national popular voteSep 04 21:01
schestowitzThe US has over a thousand around the worldSep 04 21:01
ThistleWebwallclimber: ideally yes, but they won't, they'll drag others into their extreme viewsSep 04 21:01
schestowitz7 hundred and something that it publicly disclosesSep 04 21:01
DaemonFCor else states with 600,000 people will still keep dictating from the minoritySep 04 21:02
schestowitzSome are disguised, e.g. as RAF based in the UKSep 04 21:02
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] Google — Like Mozilla — Sheds Off Some Microsoft Impact 04 21:02
Chips_B_MalroyRon Paul was ok in that reqard, but unelectable with his stance on Iran for most people hereSep 04 21:02
cubezzz-laptopok, I'm wrong, we have NATO bases, not US basesSep 04 21:02
ThistleWebthe problem with even the reform politicians is that they believe the system actually works and just needs tweaking to their agendaSep 04 21:02
ThistleWebnot one of them has spotted the real problem, the system does not workSep 04 21:03
cubezzz-laptopnot US army bases anywaySep 04 21:03
DaemonFCthe reform politicians are usually jusr Republicans on steroidsSep 04 21:03
schestowitzwallclimber: usually in these conditions it's the opposite. Big biz sweeps up the small onesSep 04 21:03
schestowitzNo VCsSep 04 21:03
ThistleWebso all their policies are nothing more than submitting a deckchair seating plan for the TitanicSep 04 21:03
DaemonFCthe so called Libertarians nominated Bob Barr, a Republican, who signed the PATRIOT Act in 2008Sep 04 21:03
ThistleWebrearrange them all they want, the ship is still sinkingSep 04 21:03
DaemonFCif that doesn't tell you who they really are, nothing willSep 04 21:04
Chips_B_MalroyRalph Nader was ok, but unelectableSep 04 21:04
ThistleWebthey dont want to change the system too much, because they want to exploit it for their own aimsSep 04 21:04
*lis` ( has joined #boycottnovellSep 04 21:04
DaemonFCand I'm glad that there's a lot of minor far right wing parties, because in our current system, that could siphon over a million votes from the Republican candidateSep 04 21:04
Chips_B_Malroyand the Democrat what was his name, Co something, seemed to have some ideasSep 04 21:04
schestowitzChips_B_Malroy: but Nader as I understand it has always been not 'permissible'Sep 04 21:05
wallclimbernot necessarily so.  if the big companies crumble they aren't going to be buying up smaller businesses.  humans are naturally inventive and they are survivorsSep 04 21:05
schestowitzI.e. not a shill to enough higher motivesSep 04 21:05
ThistleWebwhat we have now in the UK and US are mainstream parties who don't represent the normal person, but they have normal everyday peeps convinced otherwiseSep 04 21:05
DaemonFCDemocrats have always been disorganized to the point of letting neoconservatives dictate from the minoritySep 04 21:05
Chips_B_MalroyyesSep 04 21:05
DaemonFCwe're the biggest political party in the USSep 04 21:05
schestowitzwallclimber: let's hope soSep 04 21:05
wallclimberif the big trees topple, there'll be sunlight for the smaller plants to growSep 04 21:05
DaemonFC20 million stronger than the RepublicansSep 04 21:05
schestowitzSee what happened to the SunSep 04 21:05
cubezzz-laptopI really want to see the green party get a least one seat in CanadaSep 04 21:05
schestowitzIt ran out of energySep 04 21:05
DaemonFCthe far right wing parties siphon another million from the RepublicansSep 04 21:06
DaemonFCso we're actually about 21 million stronger and can still lose?Sep 04 21:06
Chips_B_Malroya true reformer will run into the rage of both partiesSep 04 21:06
DaemonFCthat's a problemSep 04 21:06
Diablo-D3[04:12:47] <DaemonFC> the so called Libertarians nominated Bob Barr, a Republican, who signed the PATRIOT Act in 2008Sep 04 21:06
Diablo-D3exceptSep 04 21:06
Chips_B_Malroyyes DaemonFC, thats trueSep 04 21:06
Diablo-D3one small problemSep 04 21:06
ThistleWebwallclimber: unfortunately, when the big companies go under, they do so oweing a LOT of money to other small companies for different services, many of whom rely on that money to make ends meet, and won't even get a look in from the liquidators who will favour other large companies first until the cash runs outSep 04 21:07
cubezzz-laptopwe have conservatives, liberals, NDP, Bloc and GreensSep 04 21:07
cubezzz-laptopGreens never get seats thoughSep 04 21:07
Chips_B_Malroyexcept, I think he later said it was a bad thingSep 04 21:07
DaemonFCit's a problem especially when Republican groups break the law to try to deny Democratic voters the right to voteSep 04 21:07
Diablo-D3he became a Libertarian a couple years backSep 04 21:07
DaemonFCby lying to them in mailers about when election day isSep 04 21:07
DaemonFCposing as the state Democratic PartySep 04 21:07
Diablo-D3and he voted for a version of the patriot act with sunset clausesSep 04 21:07
DaemonFCor when Republican groups go to Democratic rallies and vandalize carsSep 04 21:07
Diablo-D3something he pushed forSep 04 21:07
DaemonFCthese Republicans are organized thugsSep 04 21:07
DaemonFCit's all they know how to doSep 04 21:08
Diablo-D3in other wordsSep 04 21:08
ThistleWebthat small (from the large corp viewpoint) outstanding debt, may well be 6 months incomings to the small corp who cant afford not to be paid in full without going out of businessSep 04 21:08
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[popey] Gah! Some classicish music in the documentary about Blackadder on BBC in the castle in Northumberland, what is it!?Sep 04 21:08
Diablo-D3many major parts of the patriot act _will_ end thanks to bob barrSep 04 21:08
Chips_B_MalroyThere was a time when the Republicians did not seem so badSep 04 21:08
*Diablo-D3 shoots down DaemonFC's entire trollSep 04 21:08
Diablo-D3epic fail there, dudeSep 04 21:08
wallclimberThistleWeb, that's true, but until the old is gone there's no way to predict what new things will grow...just saying, it will surely get ugly (just look back at the more extreme times in history), but there's no way to know how itSep 04 21:08
DaemonFCthe Republicans basically absorbed all the racists in the southSep 04 21:08
wallclimberwill change thingsSep 04 21:08
DaemonFConce the Democrats moved to end segregationSep 04 21:08
DaemonFCand pass the voting rights actSep 04 21:09
Diablo-D3DaemonFC: absorbed? you're kidding, right?Sep 04 21:09
Diablo-D3the republican party was STARTED by wasps!Sep 04 21:09
DaemonFCthe intolerant bigots in the south used to vote for the DemocratsSep 04 21:09
Diablo-D3the republican party was started by rich white catholics who hated non-whites and non-christiansSep 04 21:09
DaemonFCthey changed in the mid 60s right after the Democrats got the voting rights act passed and ended racial segregationSep 04 21:09
Diablo-D3and they hated poor people tooSep 04 21:09
ThistleWebwallclimber: true, when the big companies go down, they'll take plenty of small companies with them, but in most cases the demand for services and products will still exist to be filled by othersSep 04 21:09
DaemonFCand started voting RepublicanSep 04 21:09
Diablo-D3if you're black, jewish, and/or poor, and you're a republican, YOU'RE A WALKING OXYMORONSep 04 21:10
Diablo-D3DaemonFC: so shut the fuck up, dudeSep 04 21:10
Diablo-D3you're bad at trolling pro-microsoft, you're worst at trolling pro-bushSep 04 21:10
wallclimberthat's right.  that's what's happened to me.  my small (and i do mean small) business is busier than it's ever beenSep 04 21:10
DaemonFCthe Democrats used to be the party trying to squash minoritiesSep 04 21:10
Diablo-D3wallclimber: thats how it always worksSep 04 21:10
Diablo-D3wallclimber: this is why the majority of my investments are in small cap companiesSep 04 21:10
ThistleWebalthough the 20th century media corp collapse will put a LOT of people onto the unemployment queue, as the demand for their niche evaporates, rather than is replacedSep 04 21:10
wallclimberi'm getting work from other small businesses that don't want to pay the high prices of big ad agencies anymoreSep 04 21:10
Diablo-D3wallclimber: they're the most profitable for meSep 04 21:11
DaemonFCafter they changed, there was a split and the "Dixiecrats" formed their own parties and ran their own candidates on a pro-segregation platformSep 04 21:11
DaemonFCand were eventually absorbed by the RepublicansSep 04 21:11
Chips_B_MalroyThey suckered a lot of people in with the talk of small government, and less laws and red tapeSep 04 21:11
wallclimberthe "mom & pop" companies will come into their own again...maybe not soon, but it'll happenSep 04 21:11
DaemonFCDiablo-D3: When did I say anything pro-Bush?Sep 04 21:11
DaemonFCdo you just not understand me?Sep 04 21:12
cubezzz-laptopI hope so wallclimberSep 04 21:12
Diablo-D3you're claiming bob barr is a secret RINOINO or some shitSep 04 21:12
wallclimberi hope so too...Sep 04 21:12
DaemonFCBob Barr is basically Bush ConcentrateSep 04 21:12
Chips_B_Malroythen Bush can in, and they became the party of war, spending, and controlling what you did, even online poker was illegalSep 04 21:12
ThistleWebwallclimber: I wouldn't hold much breath for this while the system stays as it is, a 2 party state both owned by the corps who will do anything to continue creaming it inSep 04 21:12
DaemonFCyou could water him down 50% and still not get BushSep 04 21:12
DaemonFClolSep 04 21:12
DaemonFCI usually call him Boob BarSep 04 21:13
cubezzz-laptopBush Concentrate, lol that sounds uber badSep 04 21:13
DaemonFCMister "I took away your freedom, now I wanna give it back, honest!"Sep 04 21:13
wallclimberthat's true, ThistleWeb, but I'm looking past that.  They will be gone, eventually.  not soon enough, i know, but they'll go downSep 04 21:13
ThistleWebno doubt, but they'll take the country down with themSep 04 21:13
wallclimberthey'll be very very ugly on the way down thoughSep 04 21:14
ThistleWebthen blame othersSep 04 21:14
wallclimberyes, they'll blame and scream...Sep 04 21:14
ThistleWebthese are not honorable people just trying to make a buckSep 04 21:14
wallclimberit won't be an easy time, but the pendulum always swings back after a whileSep 04 21:15
ThistleWebthese are greedy bastards who see only their own power and moneySep 04 21:15
wallclimbereven greedy bastards meet their endSep 04 21:15
cubezzz-laptophow long before Microsoft loses control over PCs do you think?Sep 04 21:15
ThistleWebanything or anyone who gets in their way is fair gameSep 04 21:15
wallclimberhistory's full of themSep 04 21:15
ThistleWebwallclimber: yes it is, it's also full of once powerful nations which no longer existSep 04 21:16
DaemonFCthe "reform" candidates are the paranoid illuminati conspiracy theorists like Ron Paul, and the anti-Bill of Rights Bob BarrSep 04 21:16
wallclimberyes, that's something that people tend to forgetSep 04 21:16
*DaemonFC has quit ("Leaving")Sep 04 21:16
wallclimberthe USA will lose its power somedaySep 04 21:17
Chips_B_Malroy <cubezzz-laptop> how long before Microsoft loses control over PCs do you think?"  A great question.  I going say 5 years.  Because, I am reling on Ballmer who said that MS could waste 10% of their profits on Bling/silverlight.Sep 04 21:17
wallclimberlike microsoft, it needs some humilitySep 04 21:17
ThistleWeball across Europe, leaders paid the price for their greed, in revolutionsSep 04 21:17
Chips_B_Malroy5 years M$ becomes unprofitable, from its two cash cowsSep 04 21:17
wallclimberonly 5 years?Sep 04 21:18
ThistleWebthe British Empire is almost bankrupt for the same reasons, and has to hang onto the US coat tails to get its way on some thingsSep 04 21:18
wallclimber(I was hoping for 6 months)Sep 04 21:18
wallclimberi think steve ballmer was the best thing to hit microsoftSep 04 21:19
wallclimberhe'll do his best to kill the companySep 04 21:19
ThistleWebI wonder if his obsession with beating Google will kill MSSep 04 21:19
ThistleWebas they pump more and more money into stuff that don't workSep 04 21:20
wallclimberi'm hoping they keep him so he can go down with the MS shipSep 04 21:20
twitterhe means 5 years ago -> Chips_B_Malroy: 5 years M$ becomes unprofitableSep 04 21:20
cubezzz-laptopBallmer does seem crazySep 04 21:20
wallclimberballmer is creepySep 04 21:20
twitterOver the last 5 years or so, M$ has squandered more than $40 in cash reserves.Sep 04 21:21
ThistleWebgive it another year, by that time we'll see if they've fooled people with the emperors new y-fronts (windows 7) or whether the masses still see he's starkers (vista)Sep 04 21:21
wallclimberwell, it's time for me to put the mouse down and step away from the computer and go fire up the burgers and steaks beer and my special iced tea too...everyone's welcomeSep 04 21:21
twitternow, they are taking on debt.Sep 04 21:21
twitterhave vun.Sep 04 21:21
wallclimberhave a good weekend everyoneSep 04 21:22
ThistleWebthey're reliant much more than ever on Windows 7 turning a profitSep 04 21:22
cubezzz-laptophow much are they selling windows 7 for?Sep 04 21:22
ThistleWebcya wallclimberSep 04 21:22
wallclimber:o)Sep 04 21:22
twitterburgers sounds great.  I'm afraid you are too far away for me to drop by.Sep 04 21:22
*wallclimber has quit ("Ex-Chat")Sep 04 21:22
ThistleWebcubezzz: I've heard it's slightly less than vistaSep 04 21:22
twitter$10 to whatever you are dumb enough to pay.Sep 04 21:22
ThistleWebbut it'll vary as usual on the areaSep 04 21:23
twitterThey had the nerve to ask Best Buy employees for $10, ha ha.Sep 04 21:23
twitterThe DVD cost them less than a quarter, so they can dump it as cheap as they like.Sep 04 21:24
schestowitzHas anyone ever seen this type of money? 04 21:26
schestowitz*monkeySep 04 21:26
cubezzz-laptopschestowitz, yesSep 04 21:27
schestowitzIt must be talking like a dickSep 04 21:29
cubezzz-laptopis any retailer selling linux cds? I only see them in chapters on magazinesSep 04 21:29
schestowitzThey must be extinctSep 04 21:29
schestowitzI found it when looking for mono (monkey) picturesSep 04 21:30
Chips_B_MalroyWhere u at Wallclimber, i be right over for the burgers and beerSep 04 21:30
schestowitzcubezzz: he looks so sad. We are destorying themSep 04 21:31
schestowitzGEnocide against our cousins the monkeys (with the common ancestors)Sep 04 21:31
schestowitzANd putting them in cagesSep 04 21:31
schestowitz:-( :-(Sep 04 21:31
Chips_B_Malroy<cubezzz-laptop> is any retailer selling linux cds? "  cheapbytesSep 04 21:32
cubezzz-laptopschestowitz, Proboscis Monkey is considered endangered, yesSep 04 21:32
_goblinIm not happy with Tuxmachines linking the Ubuntutards site....Sep 04 21:33
_goblinit stinks of linsux.....Sep 04 21:33
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Chips_B_MalroyI wish more could be found out on who is behind Linsux, they done a good job hiding their tracks.  I bet its M$ behind themSep 04 21:35
sebsebsebChips_B_Malroy: hmm?Sep 04 21:37
Chips_B_MalroyWhat worries me about MS failing eventually, is they will use the "too big to fail" excuse and have us taxpayers bail them out down the roadSep 04 21:37
sebsebsebLinus TorvaldsSep 04 21:37
_goblinI personally think many of the Wintrolls are simply proprietary supporters who don't like the FOSS model and whose jobs depend on MS products.Sep 04 21:37
cubezzz-laptopthe linsux folks seem to like OpenSUSESep 04 21:38
_goblinthat comes as no surprise....Sep 04 21:38
cubezzz-laptopI'm surprised that people are really against FOSSSep 04 21:38
cubezzz-laptopGates and Ballmer are one thing, but...Sep 04 21:39
Chips_B_MalroyThey are against Foss for the reasons Goblin stated, money.  Not to be religous here, but Money is the root of all evilSep 04 21:40
ziggyfishChips_B_Malroy: it looks to me to be FreeBSD guysSep 04 21:40
cubezzz-laptopnot money, the _love_ of moneySep 04 21:40
cubezzz-laptopmoney itself is just a toolSep 04 21:40
*tacone has quit (Remote closed the connection)Sep 04 21:40
Chips_B_Malroycubezzz, yesSep 04 21:41
Chips_B_Malroyit was a quoteSep 04 21:41
cubezzz-laptopI've learned a lot from FOSSSep 04 21:41
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[davidgerard] NotN: Microsoft arranges spontaneous house parties for Windows 7 launch 04 21:42
cubezzz-laptopLinux is much much more programmer friendly than dozeSep 04 21:46
cubezzz-laptopthere's no way in hell I would go back to dozeSep 04 21:46
schestowitz_goblin: yes, I noticed her linking to that anti-Linux siteSep 04 21:47
schestowitzShe also linked to linux haters beforeSep 04 21:47
ziggyfish 04 21:48
cubezzz-laptophow can anyone really be a "proprietary supporter" unless they are a share-holder or they actually work for the proprietary company?Sep 04 21:48
cubezzz-laptopdoesn't seem like that could be the majority of peopleSep 04 21:49
Chips_B_MalroyCubezzz, it was a good catch on the misquotation. 04 21:49
cubezzz-laptopok, buy hardware that is as open as possibleSep 04 21:50
cubezzz-laptopyeah I mean money isn't evil, I work for money and I'm not evil :)Sep 04 21:50
Chips_B_MalroyCubezz> there are those who will always be M$ fans, not so much because they love M$, but they fear change and learning something newSep 04 21:50
Chips_B_Malroybut most those types do not write commentsSep 04 21:51
cubezzz-laptopok, if someone got very rich from microsoft then I can understand yeah they would like microsoftSep 04 21:52
cubezzz-laptopbut almost all people are feeding microsoft, even if involuntarilySep 04 21:53
Chips_B_MalroyBallmer, quote:  "I love this company."Sep 04 21:53
cubezzz-laptopyes :)Sep 04 21:53
cubezzz-laptopthen he did a "Yeaaaaahhhhh!!!" afterwardsSep 04 21:54
Chips_B_Malroywas that when he did the monkey dance?Sep 04 21:54
cubezzz-laptopIt could have beenSep 04 21:54
Chips_B_Malroyhe is not dancing so much anymoreSep 04 21:54
cubezzz-laptophe's just a big fat slobSep 04 21:55
Chips_B_Malroylike some people believe that Nero fiddled while Rome burned, some will think Ballmer dances while MS declinesSep 04 21:56
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Chips_B_MalroyBringing back Bill will not save MSSep 04 21:58
Chips_B_MalroySteve already does everything that Bill wants, its like no change at allSep 04 21:58
cubezzz-laptopBallmer seemed to be a bit anti-GatesSep 04 21:58
ThistleWebMS will gradually evolve into a patent trollSep 04 21:59
Chips_B_Malroywhere?Sep 04 21:59
cubezzz-laptopwe don't need him, use him yes, need him noSep 04 21:59
Chips_B_Malroyor a holding companySep 04 21:59
ThistleWebwhich will be interesting if their entire existence is reliant on their patents and more and more peeps say "you know what? we'll build around that instead TYVM"Sep 04 22:00
cubezzz-laptopWall Street Journal article...Sep 04 22:00
cubezzz-laptop 04 22:01
cubezzz-laptopthe quote is on wikipedia in the Ballmer articleSep 04 22:02
Chips_B_Malroyyes, but what was important was what they disagreed aboutSep 04 22:04
Chips_B_MalroyI remember that, but another article, think it actually said more of what the disagreement was aboutSep 04 22:05
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] Unrest in OpenSUSE Grows, Mono Faces Opposition Also 04 22:07
schestowitz^^see pictureSep 04 22:07
schestowitzcubezzz: it's mono boy, not monkey boySep 04 22:07
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] False Associations 04 22:13
*neighborlee has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out))Sep 04 22:13
Chips_B_MalroyGraygeek has always made a lot of senseSep 04 22:15
schestowitzYesSep 04 22:21
schestowitzI posted the above cause there's weird stuff going onSep 04 22:21
schestowitzPeople pretend to be associated with meSep 04 22:21
schestowitzLike before... and then giving some weird replies and stuffSep 04 22:21
schestowitzAs though they try to get me in troubleSep 04 22:21
schestowitzGreyGeek was involved tooSep 04 22:22
*DaemonFC has quit (Remote closed the connection)Sep 04 22:24
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[davidgerard] A heartwarming tale of finest British ingenuity, from b3ta (SFW) 04 22:27
Chips_B_MalroyI  wonder if dogpile metasearch is now using bing as its top search hits?  Just did a search for Microsoft in dogpile news, and the two top hits were ms sonsoredSep 04 22:38
Chips_B_Malroygoogle yahoo bing ask is what they useSep 04 22:39
Chips_B_MalroyMicrosoft Staves Off Word Sales Ban   we were just talking about this yesterday, that MS was going to be able to continue to sell Office one way or anotherSep 04 22:41
ThistleWebI doubt anyone believed MS would have to face the banSep 04 22:42
Chips_B_MalroyMicrosoft reports attacks using IIS vulnerability 04 22:42
ThistleWebthey have too many friends in high places for thatSep 04 22:43
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Chips_B_Malroy"Power tends to corrupt; absolute power corrupts absolutely. Great men are almost always bad men."Sep 04 22:45
Chips_B_MalroyLord ActonSep 04 22:45
ThistleWebahh, another man of the people, a LordSep 04 22:46
Chips_B_Malroydid Gates get knighted over there, or was it just his honorary degree hereSep 04 22:47
Chips_B_Malroy 04 22:50
MinceR"Power corrupts. Absolute power is kind of neat."Sep 04 22:50
Chips_B_MalroyKnighthood for Microsoft's GatesSep 04 22:50
ThistleWebI believe only UK citeins can be knightedSep 04 22:51
ThistleWebbut honoraray awards can be given if it's gonna benefit the UK elite somehowSep 04 22:51
Chips_B_Malroy"Mr Gates, 48, the world's wealthiest man, said it was "a great honour" to be recognised for his business skills and for his work on poverty reduction. "Sep 04 22:51
MinceRhe reduced his own povertySep 04 22:52
Chips_B_MalroyYESSep 04 22:52
ThistleWebGates knighted for services to malware writersSep 04 22:52
ThistleWebhis products have given malware writers the freedom to exploit and inovate like no otherSep 04 22:52
Chips_B_MalroyMalware writers should be the ones throwing the Windows Seven partiesSep 04 22:52
MinceRthey areSep 04 22:53
MinceRfor example, the ones who "work" in RedmondSep 04 22:53
Chips_B_MalroylolSep 04 22:53
Chips_B_Malroy"As an American citizen he cannot use the title "Sir" but will be entitled to put the letters KBE after his name. "   Must be he would have to pay extra to get the law changed over there.Sep 04 22:54
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[trmanco] Boas noites!Sep 04 22:56
Chips_B_Malroy"The entrepreneur was handed an insignia to make him a Knight Commander of the Order of the British Empire."Sep 04 22:56
Chips_B_MalroyMaybe, things are worse across the pond than I thoughtSep 04 22:57
MinceRthey're always sucking up to the usaniansSep 04 22:57
ThistleWebahven't we always been at war with uasnians?Sep 04 22:58
MinceRand trialling the surveillance state for them, presumablySep 04 22:58
MinceRThistleWeb: well, if we dare to think, we're turristsSep 04 22:58
MinceRand there's a war of turrism going onSep 04 22:58
Chips_B_Malroy"<ThistleWeb> ahven't we always been at war with uasnians?"   Wait wait, I know that quote, is that from the book 1984 ?Sep 04 22:59
ThistleWebI dont think they mind peeps thinking, as long as they agree with the govtSep 04 22:59
ThistleWebChips_B_Malroy: yessumsSep 04 22:59
ThistleWebit was a 1984 jokeSep 04 22:59
balzaclartSep 04 22:59
ThistleWebin 1984 it's Eurasia but it looked close enough to turn into a jokeSep 04 23:00
Chips_B_Malroyyes, it finially clickedSep 04 23:00
schestowitz2+2=7 (Vista 7)Sep 04 23:00
schestowitzSay it, bia*Sep 04 23:00
balzacroy, what's fresh man?Sep 04 23:01
Chips_B_MalroyI need to rent that movie, read the book long agoSep 04 23:01
ThistleWebthe john hurt movie is quite goodSep 04 23:01
Chips_B_Malroyanimal farm, brave new worldSep 04 23:01
Chips_B_Malroyall were goodSep 04 23:02
balzacI dropped a couple of comments on the topic of Con Kolivas' new Brain Fuck SchedulerSep 04 23:02
balzac 04 23:02
balzacI had to take issue with our friend oiaohm in that thredaSep 04 23:03
ThistleWebthe movie is quite dated but that's to be expected, it is very faithful to the book thoughSep 04 23:05
balzacPeople are pretending to be RoySep 04 23:05
Chips_B_MalroyCritical Error - Bill Gates Knighted 04 23:05
balzac <--- this kid knows how to address the poseursSep 04 23:06
Chips_B_MalroyI got to save this oneSep 04 23:06
balzacpretty sillySep 04 23:08
balzacwas he really knighted?Sep 04 23:08
Chips_B_Malroy"<balzac> People are pretending to be Roy"  Now I can see them trying to discredit Roy, the MS Shills.  But trying to pretend to be me in the comments of MS Watch?  They did that back when Willcox was still there, and they did it with Goblin too.Sep 04 23:09
MinceRif full-screen flash failing is the kernel's fault, by what sort of magic does full screen full hd mpeg4 playback work fine?Sep 04 23:09
MinceRare these people out of their minds?Sep 04 23:09
balzacThe Queen of England can kiss my bag.Sep 04 23:09
MinceRshe can't kiss mine, it would get filthy.Sep 04 23:09
balzacI'd accept knighthood if she offered it, but I'm already a 33rd degree masonic knightSep 04 23:10
ThistleWebI thought of setting up a site called with a picture of the Queen on the loo reading the Sun as a logoSep 04 23:10
balzacyour filthy bag would make her sneeze?Sep 04 23:10
balzac</endtopic>Sep 04 23:10
MinceRi'd rather not have her sneeze on meSep 04 23:11
Chips_B_MalroySo has Bill bought, err, I mean won the Nobel prize yet?Sep 04 23:11
cubezzz-laptopok, no need to ask if you guys are monarchists :)Sep 04 23:11
MinceRno human is fit to rule meSep 04 23:11
ThistleWebyou have to wonder about in institution that demands you kiss the royal ringSep 04 23:11
cubezzz-laptopI thought the monarchy was kind of sillySep 04 23:11
balzacI wouldn't kiss her ringSep 04 23:12
ThistleWebit is fitting, where you kiss ass to get rewards, like areas of land and honoursSep 04 23:12
MinceRit's a typical feudal institutionSep 04 23:12
MinceRwith all the filth it's made ofSep 04 23:12
balzacI'm starting to appreciate feudalism, so long as I'm the lord, not the peasant!Sep 04 23:12
MinceRi would, except i don't really care to tell stupid people what to doSep 04 23:13
balzacyou get to pick the best women from among the peasantrySep 04 23:13
balzacdefile them one by one, finger bang, bang!Sep 04 23:14
MinceRi'd rather them come willinglySep 04 23:14
ThistleWebor the herds if you prefer ;)Sep 04 23:14
balzacsorry...Sep 04 23:14
MinceRrather them being forced toSep 04 23:14
balzacMinceR: that never happens.Sep 04 23:14
balzacyou've got to have a pile of gold.Sep 04 23:14
MinceRthat can be arrangedSep 04 23:14
balzacwomen have needs, more than just for your company.Sep 04 23:14
Chips_B_MalroyBill Gates to receive Indira Gandhi Peace Prize today 04 23:14
balzacwell, if you have a pile of gold, you've become an aristocrat, and they're coming for your gold, not your incredibly charming personalitySep 04 23:15
ThistleWebnow that would be a medical complaint to make the news, having golden pilesSep 04 23:15
balzacgnarlySep 04 23:16
MinceR:)Sep 04 23:17
balzacBill Gates is extremely popular, except for among f among IT professionalsSep 04 23:17
schestowitzCause they understand the issuesSep 04 23:18
MinceRso his extremely popular among people who have no idea what he didSep 04 23:18
schestowitz*LOL* " Gandhi Peace Prize"Sep 04 23:18
MinceRthat's the Cult of the Almighty Money, prime religion of Earth.Sep 04 23:18
ThistleWebwindows will go down in history as a swear word among its usersSep 04 23:18
schestowitzFrom the man who yells "Jihad" i his E-mailsSep 04 23:18
cubezzz-laptopwas Rockefeller popular?Sep 04 23:18
balzac he's robbing computer users of their freedom to get all these prizesSep 04 23:18
schestowitzIn calls the "kill" his competitorsSep 04 23:18
MinceRs/his/he's/Sep 04 23:18
schestowitzYeah, real pacifist figureSep 04 23:18
ThistleWebthe US system does value greed, and Gates is up there among the top on that scoreSep 04 23:19
MinceRnot only the US systemSep 04 23:19
balzacyeah, he's a brutal troll, thrashing other businessmenSep 04 23:19
MinceRthe human systemSep 04 23:19
balzacbut very charming in person, it seemsSep 04 23:19
balzacmoney charms peopleSep 04 23:19
cubezzz-laptopone thing I don't understand is why, after the DOJ trouble, Microsoft is so anti-LinuxSep 04 23:20
balzacI can't believe the British Royal Navy put windows on their ships and submarinesSep 04 23:20
balzacthat's not smartSep 04 23:20
Chips_B_Malroymoney is power, and power corrupts _______________Sep 04 23:20
cubezzz-laptopwhy not just ignore Linux?Sep 04 23:20
MinceRcubezzz-laptop: they know and fear their doom.Sep 04 23:20
MinceRalso, the stakeholders probably demand attention to competitors.Sep 04 23:20
balzacthe doom of their monopoly. it's important to specifySep 04 23:20
balzacnot doom in generalSep 04 23:20
MinceReverything they have relies on their monopolySep 04 23:20
balzacpretty muchSep 04 23:20
MinceRonce their monopoly crumbles, the rest of their criminal organization won't stand for longSep 04 23:21
cubezzz-laptopI think with Linux we have a product good enough to stand on it's own meritSep 04 23:21
cubezzz-laptopit's the schools I worry about thoughSep 04 23:21
MinceRi worry about a lot of thingsSep 04 23:21
MinceRincluding the time it takes to kill m$Sep 04 23:21
balzacto kill their obscene profitsSep 04 23:21
MinceRevery second of their survival keeps causing more damageSep 04 23:22
balzacthe survival of their monopolySep 04 23:22
MinceRnot just thatSep 04 23:22
Chips_B_Malroy"<cubezzz-laptop> one thing I don't understand is why, after the DOJ trouble, Microsoft is so anti-Linux"  M$ had to buy both parties here in the USA after Clintion left.  So they think they can use the Gov and Patents and attack Linux without anyone doing anything about them.  Its only the EU that stands in their waySep 04 23:22
balzaci keep feeling the need to soften your languageSep 04 23:22
balzacit's too much like a bolshevikSep 04 23:22
MinceRthey never rest, always looking for some way to harm the rest of the worldSep 04 23:22
balzacwe're not going to do them up like the RomanovsSep 04 23:22
MinceRagreed, there are more effective means of punishmentSep 04 23:23
MinceRalso, they could try to make up for the losses they've causedSep 04 23:23
MinceRthey could be forced to do some real workSep 04 23:23
balzacwhat, labor camps?Sep 04 23:23
Chips_B_Malroythey will never be punished,Sep 04 23:23
balzacsounds like bolsheviks againSep 04 23:23
MinceRi don't care about your labels :>Sep 04 23:23
balzaccareSep 04 23:23
MinceRChips_B_Malroy: i'm afraid so.Sep 04 23:23
balzacRoy, I think you should take MinceR's tiara awaySep 04 23:24
cubezzz-laptopjust break up Microsoft already, like the DOJ said beforeSep 04 23:24
balzacand his scepter tooSep 04 23:24
MinceRthere are too many evil people doing evil and succeeding, encouraging each other.Sep 04 23:24
MinceRit seems that crime does pay after all.Sep 04 23:24
Chips_B_Malroyonly the EU has any chance of breaking up M$Sep 04 23:24
MinceRthe EU won't break up m$. the EU is way too corrupt to do that.Sep 04 23:25
Chips_B_MalroyBill and friends run this countrySep 04 23:25
cubezzz-laptopor MIcrosoft could just decay from withinSep 04 23:25
cubezzz-laptoppossibleSep 04 23:25
MinceRi'd rather not wait for that.Sep 04 23:25
Chips_B_MalroyLinux will beat MS if its a fair fightSep 04 23:25
MinceRit isn'tSep 04 23:26
MinceRGNU/Linux will still win most likelySep 04 23:26
Chips_B_Malroyno, but it is still gainingSep 04 23:26
MinceRthe question is one of collateral damage.Sep 04 23:26
balzacMinceR: the world is, and always has been too corrupt for you. You sound like that 15th century priest, Girolamo SavonarolaSep 04 23:26
cubezzz-laptopgot to try to get GNU/Linux in the schools I thinkSep 04 23:27
balzacyou can't purify the world of what you consider evilSep 04 23:27
MinceRbalzac: well, i'm sorry for not liking corruption.Sep 04 23:27
MinceRi'm sorry for having ideals.Sep 04 23:27
balzacRMS has a noble goal in liberating computer usersSep 04 23:27
Chips_B_MalroyWe must understand why IBM and Google want patents, its like the cold war, everyone wanted nukes tooSep 04 23:27
balzache salts his rhetoric with the word "evil", but we all know RMS also has a great sense of humor.Sep 04 23:27
cubezzz-laptopat least get to the point where you can really choose which OS you get a the storeSep 04 23:27
balzacbut where's your sense of humor?Sep 04 23:27
MinceRbalzac: did someone make a joke?Sep 04 23:28
MinceRor tellSep 04 23:28
balzacno, but you ought toSep 04 23:28
cubezzz-laptopone scenario: EU is too tough on MIcrosoft, Microsoft leaves Europe :)Sep 04 23:28
cubezzz-laptop...and there was much celebrationSep 04 23:28
Chips_B_Malroy"<cubezzz-laptop> at least get to the point where you can really choose which OS you get a the store"=====when this happens and we have real choice at the stores, MS is deadSep 04 23:29
balzacChips_B_Malroy: mutually assured destruction was a crazy idea, but power is what it is.Sep 04 23:29
cubezzz-laptopit does feel Microsoft is losing ground for sureSep 04 23:29
Chips_B_MalroyMS cannot leave EuropeSep 04 23:29
balzacof course the USSR was going to make their own after the US made its nuclear arsenelSep 04 23:29
balzacif they hadn't, there'd have been no balance between super powersSep 04 23:30
MinceRthe EU allowed m$ to sell its WMP-less winblows at the same price as the one with WMPSep 04 23:30
MinceRso no, they aren't tough on m$ at allSep 04 23:30
Chips_B_Malroyits cannot lose anywhere, giving Linux a beach head, is the end for themSep 04 23:30
balzacthen each country which wanted to be secure made their own arsenalSep 04 23:30
cubezzz-laptopstarting this year, I have people asking me to put Linux on their laptopsSep 04 23:31
cubezzz-laptopnot me suggesting, the customerSep 04 23:31
balzacI tell you, even if Bill Gates had wanted to abandon his proprietary licenses, his shareholders wouldn't have allowed it.Sep 04 23:31
cubezzz-laptopgood sign thereSep 04 23:31
balzacthe shareholders of microsoft are going to want to wring money out of computer users quarter by quarter until microsoft collapsesSep 04 23:31
balzacit's a group phenomenon, a big pyramid scheme relying in computer users' ignorance of their freedomSep 04 23:32
Chips_B_Malroyit was always something before nukes, battleships maybe at another time.  but he idea of patents maybe is so you can counter sueSep 04 23:32
MinceRthen they're just as guilty as gates is.Sep 04 23:32
balzacEveryone except the great Mincer is guilty of somethingSep 04 23:32
MinceRwhen did i say that?Sep 04 23:32
cubezzz-laptopwe never really had freedom before thoughSep 04 23:32
cubezzz-laptopnot with softwareSep 04 23:32
balzacThe focus is on winning, and taking power away from them, not on punishing them after they lose power.Sep 04 23:32
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] Microsoft’s Latest Anti-GNU/Linux Moves Are Sign of Agony 04 23:33
cubezzz-laptopno FOSS I can remember in the "good old days"Sep 04 23:33
MinceRso we just let the next greedy bunch of criminals do the same thing, knowing that they won't be punished?Sep 04 23:33
balzaccubezzz-laptop: as Tanto asked the Lone Ranger, "What do you mean by 'we', white man?"Sep 04 23:33
cubezzz-laptopwe = personal computer usersSep 04 23:33
MinceRis the game about taking as much money as you can, and then being released with all the money?Sep 04 23:33
balzacMinceR: once there was a very rich man who didn't have a can-opener at his picnic. He told his 'Jeeves' - "have a can-opener factory built on this spot!"Sep 04 23:34
MinceRshould we just release all criminals from prisons because the crimes they've committed are already in the past?Sep 04 23:34
cubezzz-laptopthere was some FOSS, yes, with Amiga we had Fish disks, that was a type of FOSSSep 04 23:34
Chips_B_Malroy   "Ballmer wants $100 PCs to combat piracy  News Ballmer also defended a comment made earlier this year by Bill Gates, Microsoft's chairman, who said security will not be an issue in three years. Ballmer said that some governments have decided against using Linux after studying the costs involved.      * Tags:     * Steve Ballmer,     * Piracy,     * $100 Sep 04 23:34
_goblinah fred fish!!!Sep 04 23:34
cubezzz-laptopI shouldn't say "No Freedom"Sep 04 23:35
balzacMinceR: I keep vendettas in mind. If someone gets on my nerves badly enough, I remember them and I wait for my moment to stick it to them.Sep 04 23:35
balzacBut it's not an over-arching goal. Computer user's freedom is the goal.Sep 04 23:35
MinceRbalzac: what do you mean by that?Sep 04 23:35
balzacWe can mock Microsoft after their monopoly is toppled.Sep 04 23:36
MinceRbalzac: do you also think that gates, ballmer & co. should be allowed to keep all the money they've stolen from society?Sep 04 23:36
balzacI agree with the guy who threw the eggs.Sep 04 23:36
balzac"give that money back, RIGHT NOW!"Sep 04 23:36
balzacBut he threw eggsSep 04 23:37
balzacnot stonesSep 04 23:37
MinceRhe wanted to liveSep 04 23:37
cubezzz-laptopyeah too much concentration of wealth is bad, and in Gate's case it was way too muchSep 04 23:37
balzacstones would have been wrongSep 04 23:37
MinceRthe authorities would have taken his freedom away of he threw stonesSep 04 23:37
balzacrotten tomatos would have been fine tooSep 04 23:37
MinceRyes, because he should have thrown grenadesSep 04 23:37
balzacsee Roy?Sep 04 23:37
balzacyou don't want to give ops to MincerSep 04 23:38
cubezzz-laptopbalzac, was the egg thrower charged with anything?Sep 04 23:38
MinceRs/of/if/Sep 04 23:38
ThistleWebiGrenade?Sep 04 23:38
balzache's a hot-headSep 04 23:38
MinceRbalzac: this has nothing to do with ops. also, you might want to stop trolling.Sep 04 23:38
balzaci'm not trolling, you are.Sep 04 23:38
MinceRThistleWeb: nah, that isn't reliable enoughSep 04 23:38
ThistleWeblolSep 04 23:38
MinceRit's set to a random fuse.Sep 04 23:38
ThistleWebmaybe if it's set right it may go ZAZune!!!Sep 04 23:38
MinceRlolSep 04 23:38
ThistleWebKAZune!!Sep 04 23:38
cubezzz-laptop;-)Sep 04 23:39
cubezzz-laptophe could have thrown the GPL at himSep 04 23:39
ThistleWebengraved onto a cannonballSep 04 23:39
MinceRbalzac: i know you want to cuddle criminals in order to set an example for othersSep 04 23:39
Chips_B_MalroyGates money will never be redistributedSep 04 23:39
MinceR"sure, just cheat and steal happily, we won't do anything harmful to you"Sep 04 23:40
MinceR"maybe take back a little bit of what you stole"Sep 04 23:40
cubezzz-laptopChips_B_Malroy, it may actually, he has said each kid only gets 1 million eachSep 04 23:40
cubezzz-laptopso all the rest goes to the foundationSep 04 23:40
balzacyou want to cuddle themSep 04 23:40
MinceRpeople are so moral and ethical they don't need deterrents from crime, right?Sep 04 23:40
balzaci want to cuddle hot chicks. i can only tolerate petty criminality, nothing violent like you proposed a second ago.Sep 04 23:40
MinceRapparently you tolerate any crime, but you don't tolerate the punishment of criminals.Sep 04 23:41
Chips_B_Malroyah here is more on the Gates ballmer fight in 2000,      Gates-Ballmer rifts marked Microsoft power shift     looked like reading between the lines it was about Netdocs, the forerunner of Office onlineSep 04 23:42
mib_3425Killing someone with a granade, would itself be considered a crime, not a punishment of a criminal.Sep 04 23:43
balzacno kiddingSep 04 23:43
MinceRoh, mutex finally speaksSep 04 23:43
MinceRhaving found a fellow trollSep 04 23:43
balzacMincer, you had to get yourself all worked up again. You didn't learn last time I scolded you.Sep 04 23:44
MinceRbalzac: who do you think you are?Sep 04 23:44
balzacI bet Roy will remove your '@' when he sees it.Sep 04 23:44
MinceRthen he'll also remove your ban.Sep 04 23:44
balzacbring itSep 04 23:44
MinceRand mutex'sSep 04 23:45
balzaclearn to behave like an adultSep 04 23:45
MinceRfrom you?Sep 04 23:45
balzacor else you can't hold any position of responsibilitySep 04 23:45
MinceRdo you think what you do is adult behavior?Sep 04 23:45
balzacfrom whoever, it doesn't matter who you learn from, so long as you stop degrading the reputation of Roy's forumSep 04 23:45
balzacrelative to you, yesSep 04 23:46
_goblinbalzac: the only child here is you....Sep 04 23:46
MinceRget off that high horse already, balzacSep 04 23:46
balzac_goblin: what, you agree with the grenade 'joke'?Sep 04 23:46
_goblinhes not on a high horse...more like a three legged donkey.Sep 04 23:46
balzacit's uncouthSep 04 23:46
balzacunacceptableSep 04 23:46
MinceRoh, poor mr. ballmer would get hurtSep 04 23:46
balzac_goblin: that's what your momma saidSep 04 23:46
MinceRwe can't have that, now can we?Sep 04 23:46
balzacno, we can't have that.Sep 04 23:46
MinceRhe's such a valuable member of our societySep 04 23:47
MinceRwe really need people like that ripping us offSep 04 23:47
_goblinbalzac: Youve just proved my point.Sep 04 23:47
MinceRafter all, otherwise what would we do all the money we've earned with real work?Sep 04 23:47
balzacat least he's not talking about throwing grenades at ideological opponents.Sep 04 23:47
_goblinbalzac: Mum jokes were over after you left school....Sep 04 23:47
balzacI'd sooner drink a beer with Ballmer than you, Mincer.Sep 04 23:47
MinceRwhat would we do with all our free time if we didn't have his great products and all their flaws to waste our time with?Sep 04 23:47
MinceRbalzac: i know, you're kindred souls.Sep 04 23:47
balzacI don't use Microsoft products.Sep 04 23:47
MinceRbalzac: you believe in criminals going uninhibited and unpunished.Sep 04 23:48
*ThistleWeb shakes headSep 04 23:48
balzacbut this is about software. this isn't a war.Sep 04 23:48
_goblinbalzac: what does it matter what you are still an idiot.Sep 04 23:48
MinceRbalzac: and apparently a society where everybody steals from everybody as much as they could.Sep 04 23:48
balzacMinceR: I believe in you retracting violent language.Sep 04 23:48
MinceRbalzac: read m$'s memos and you'll see that it is indeed war.Sep 04 23:48
MinceRand we're the targets.Sep 04 23:48
balzacYou saw I slammed those microsoft fanboys who came in here and said I needed to get my head smashedSep 04 23:48
balzacviolent language has no place in a software forumSep 04 23:49
MinceRyou must have said idiotic things, just like you're saying now.Sep 04 23:49
ThistleWebbeing a target can be fun, it makes you feel speshulSep 04 23:49
_goblinMinceR: Why not just ban him...he's wasting peoples time.Sep 04 23:49
MinceRwell, then go have a beer with your favorite ballmer and ask him about how he wants to kill google.Sep 04 23:49
MinceRi'm sure there's no violence there.Sep 04 23:49
*ThistleWeb ducks to avoid low flying chairsSep 04 23:49
MinceRnor is there any in those "death spirals" they keep talking about.Sep 04 23:49
_goblindamnSep 04 23:49
balzacsaying "kill google" is a lot different than your 'joke'Sep 04 23:50
MinceRi'm sureSep 04 23:50
_goblinthistleweb: you got that in before I could!Sep 04 23:50
MinceRbecause we aren't talking nowSep 04 23:50
MinceRoh, waitSep 04 23:50
MinceRwe are!Sep 04 23:50
balzacMincer, you're worse in your use of language than any of the MS execs I've heardSep 04 23:50
ThistleWeb_goblin: npSep 04 23:50
MinceRwe were discussing "violent language", by your own wordsSep 04 23:50
balzacthey shouldn't talk that way eitherSep 04 23:50
MinceRthen you should listen to some m$ execsSep 04 23:50
balzacbut they don't say anything about throwing grenades at specific peopleSep 04 23:50
balzaci've read their quotesSep 04 23:50
_goblinyawnSep 04 23:50
ThistleWebbalzac: you should get a sense of humour, they're niceSep 04 23:50
MinceRapparently you haven'tSep 04 23:51
MinceRbalzac: you have no idea what you're talking about.Sep 04 23:51
balzacThistleWeb: tell it to MincerSep 04 23:51
balzacI have a widely renowned sense of humorSep 04 23:51
MinceRbalzac: renowned among whom?Sep 04 23:51
balzacpeople piss their pants over my humorSep 04 23:51
ThistleWebdude, I'm sitting here watching what I'd describe as an IRC playschool fightSep 04 23:51
_goblinhimselfSep 04 23:51
balzacMincer is a troll.Sep 04 23:51
ThistleWebhe said, he saidSep 04 23:52
MinceRbalzac: also, you might want to think about where m$ will stop in their actions against our freedom.Sep 04 23:52
ThistleWebit's patheticSep 04 23:52
balzacMinceR: you're a demagogue and a troll.Sep 04 23:52
balzacI know how to resist Microsoft. You don't.Sep 04 23:52
MinceRyou don't want to resist themSep 04 23:52
MinceRyou want them to enjoy the money they've acquired unfairly and unethically.Sep 04 23:52
MinceRuntil they die of natural causes.Sep 04 23:53
balzacwrong. you're not the vanguard of resistance to Microsoft. You're like the guy who stands at the back of a demonstration and throws bottles and rocks at the riot police.Sep 04 23:53
ThistleWebas far as I read the comments, everyone knows it's just a laugh, we're not advocating violence in any way shape or form, yet you seem not to have got thatSep 04 23:53
Chips_B_MalroyNot to offend anyone's religion here, but MS leaders have used the jihad word many timesSep 04 23:53
MinceRbalzac: news flash, you aren't the vanguard of resistance to m$, either.Sep 04 23:53
balzacyou incite negative consequences and you hurt the goals of the real resistanceSep 04 23:53
ThistleWebyou seem to be reading stuff very literalSep 04 23:53
balzacMinceR: I am. You are not.Sep 04 23:53
MinceRbalzac: you claim you know what the real resistance isSep 04 23:53
MinceRbalzac: go back to kindergarten.Sep 04 23:53
balzacI'm calling you out for being a hot-head, and a fraud. You're not an activist, you're an "angstivist". Why don't you go join PETA?Sep 04 23:54
ThistleWebit'd be a sad, yet careful place if everything written online was supposed to be taken literallySep 04 23:54
*MinceR sets ban on *!*n=balzac@*.slicehost.netSep 04 23:54
*MinceR has kicked balzac from #boycottnovell (that will be enough, then.)Sep 04 23:54
MinceRsorry, but that really goes beyond my tolerance for trolling.Sep 04 23:54
_goblinI agreeSep 04 23:54
_goblinhe was just winding people up.Sep 04 23:54
_goblinhe didn't believe a word of what he was saying (IMO)Sep 04 23:54
Chips_B_Malroyactually, I thought both of you are somewhat in the vanguard of ms resistanceSep 04 23:54
MinceRi don't care if he believed that crapSep 04 23:55
ThistleWebdoes anyone really believe we're actually advocating real grenades etc?Sep 04 23:55
Chips_B_MalroynoSep 04 23:56
MinceRi am, because i think that physical damage to a single person who's dedicated to harming our society is less than the damage he can yet inflict on thousands or millions.Sep 04 23:56
ThistleWebsheesh, what a place it'd be if everyone had to restrict their comments to what they literally meantSep 04 23:56
MinceRi think the person who causes all this damage should be made to suffer for it, not innocent thousands.Sep 04 23:56
MinceRif i break something, i'm made to pay for it.Sep 04 23:56
MinceRif i go around breaking stuff, i'm restrained.Sep 04 23:56
ThistleWebplanty of Fox News fans would be in jail for hate crimes and death threatsSep 04 23:57
MinceRwhy can't this work on influential, rich people?Sep 04 23:57
MinceRbecause they're the High Priests of the Almighty Money and should not be insulted?Sep 04 23:57
MinceRballmer spits in our face every day of our life (not literally)Sep 04 23:58
*#boycottnovell :You need to be a channel operator to do thatSep 04 23:58
*#boycottnovell :You need to be a channel operator to do thatSep 04 23:58
*#boycottnovell :You need to be a channel operator to do thatSep 04 23:58
>ChanServ<op #boycottnovell schestowitzSep 04 23:58
*ChanServ gives channel operator status to schestowitzSep 04 23:58
MinceRi don't think we should be forced to endure that just because some kind of warped system of false morals commands that he should not be harmed in any way, no matter what.Sep 04 23:58
*schestowitz removes channel operator status from MinceRSep 04 23:58
*schestowitz removes ban on *!*n=balzac@*.slicehost.netSep 04 23:58
Diablo-D3who was thatSep 04 23:58
Diablo-D3lolslicehostSep 04 23:58
MinceRi see trolls are quite welcome here.Sep 04 23:58
MinceRDaemonFC, balzac, _Mutex_Sep 04 23:58
Diablo-D3mehSep 04 23:59

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