IRC: #boycottnovell @ FreeNode: September 16th, 2009

schestowitz"Cigarette makers have come up with a way to get around the new U.S. Food and Drug Administration (FDA) rule banning flavored cigarettes. They have started making small, filtered cigars similar in size to cigarettes, that are flavored with clove, vanilla and cherry. Cigarettes are wrapped in paper, while cigars are wrapped in tobacco leaves or paper that contains reconstituted tobacco."Sep 16 00:00
schestowitz 16 00:00
trmanco 16 00:00
trmancono pt pt translation uhSep 16 00:00
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[trmanco] Chinese browsers are putting the heat on Internet Explorer: 16 00:06
schestowitzgnSep 16 00:08
trmancoalready?Sep 16 00:14
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cubezzzsame with Loki games...Sep 16 00:20
cubezzzno more dev workSep 16 00:20
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-BNc/#boycottnovell-[davidgerard] NotN: Yet another amazing Bush Whitehouse tell-all released 16 00:40
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-BNc/#boycottnovell-[thistleweb] Nona Foster (rdathdipaolo) on Twitter has been reported to Twitter admins for spamming 16 00:56
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yuhongI am wondering if we should not blame the OS vendors for DRM "anti-features", blaming Hollywood instead for demanding them.Sep 16 01:33
yuhongI mean, if Linux was to add support for Blu-Ray, these same DRM anti-features would be needed to be added to Linux as well.Sep 16 01:33
Diablo-D3yuhong: wellSep 16 01:33
Diablo-D3if bluray had been smartSep 16 01:33
Diablo-D3they would have used a java vm to decrypt the discSep 16 01:33
yuhongAnd while DRM-free music has caught on, DRM-free video has not been caught on.Sep 16 01:34
Diablo-D3I mean, sure, it wouldnt stop those who just copy the entire ISO....Sep 16 01:34
Diablo-D3but lets face it, pirating 25gb ISOs sucks assSep 16 01:34
Diablo-D3even if you have 100mbps internet, it sucks assSep 16 01:34
Diablo-D3if they were smart they'd write a non-flash internet browser playerSep 16 01:35
yuhongBD+ appears to be closest to an attempt to do this.Sep 16 01:35
Diablo-D3in factSep 16 01:36
Diablo-D3_in fact_Sep 16 01:36
Diablo-D3it shouldnt _be_ tied to the media that waySep 16 01:36
Diablo-D3I should be able to copy the ISO and play it backSep 16 01:36
Diablo-D3let the damn thing call home for all I careSep 16 01:36
Diablo-D3that doesnt really bother meSep 16 01:37
yuhongUsing a different secret byte-code, but similar idea.Sep 16 01:37
yuhongIt seems to be successful.Sep 16 01:37
yuhong 16 01:37
Diablo-D3I wouldn't mind building a gigantic serverSep 16 01:37
Diablo-D3that I just copy the discs intoSep 16 01:37
Diablo-D3and play them anywhere in my homeSep 16 01:37
Diablo-D3as long as I actually get to build the serverSep 16 01:38
yuhongMuch more successful than AACS.Sep 16 01:38
Diablo-D3even running a proprietary linux distro wouldnt be that big of an issue as long as it works and is updated frequently or updatableSep 16 01:38
Diablo-D3and the clients would have to not suckSep 16 01:39
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Diablo-D3or even not have clients at all and use a modern wireless HDMI box that can do uncompressed 1080pSep 16 01:39
yuhongThanks for this idea.Sep 16 01:39
Diablo-D3seriously, Im not a nutjob like some people (roy, sadly, included)Sep 16 01:39
Diablo-D3I just want shit to work the way I want it to workSep 16 01:39
Diablo-D3Im flexableSep 16 01:39
Diablo-D3blurays, although I own quite a few and a player to go with them, kind of suckSep 16 01:40
Diablo-D3I have to often pirate shit I already own just to watch it on my computerSep 16 01:40
Diablo-D3yuhong: I dont know why they bother thoughSep 16 01:43
Diablo-D3they could get rid of the DRM altogetherSep 16 01:43
yuhongIt seems that an advantage of HD DVD is that DRM-free versions are possible, which is not possible for Blu-Ray.Sep 16 01:43
Diablo-D3and slash the cost of the disc in halfSep 16 01:43
Diablo-D3yuhong: noSep 16 01:43
Diablo-D3you can do DRM free on bluraySep 16 01:43
yuhongI am trying to confirm this.Sep 16 01:43
Diablo-D3Im pretty sure you dont have to use itSep 16 01:44
Diablo-D3but even if that wasnt trueSep 16 01:44
Diablo-D3they could just leak the keySep 16 01:44
yuhongMaybe.Sep 16 01:44
yuhong 16 01:44
yuhongAs I said, I am trying to confirm this.Sep 16 01:46
Diablo-D3Im serious thoughSep 16 01:46
Diablo-D3they could just create one key for drm-less discsSep 16 01:47
yuhongIn theory, or just get rid of it altogether.Sep 16 01:47
yuhongI am trying to find out which of HD DVD or Blu-Ray allow this.Sep 16 01:48
Diablo-D3Im pretty sure you can master discs without itSep 16 01:49
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yuhongAnyway, right now, there are Blu-Ray and HD-DVD players for Linux, but I don't think they are officially certified.Sep 16 01:52
Diablo-D3hd-dvd is deadSep 16 01:53
Diablo-D3and mplayer can play some bluray discs with an unoffical patch that just cracks the discSep 16 01:53
yuhongWhat I meant was that if it was to be officially certified, some of Vista's DRM anti-features would probably have to be added to Linux.Sep 16 01:54
Diablo-D3I don't largely care as long as the software _works_Sep 16 01:54
Diablo-D3the problem is it rarely worksSep 16 01:54
yuhongAs I said, I am trying to investigate, it seems to be hard to find that info.Sep 16 01:58
cubezzzwell I still want as much source code as possible :)Sep 16 02:01
cubezzzanyone at the extreme end of a spectrum can appear to be "a nut job"Sep 16 02:02
cubezzzStallman for example... many people think he's strangeSep 16 02:04
cubezzzall that work on gnu stuff...Sep 16 02:04
yuhong 16 02:05
Diablo-D3yuhong: its largely bullshitSep 16 02:05
yuhong"To begin with no Blu-ray replication run can be undertaken without the expensive addition of AACS copy protection."Sep 16 02:05
Diablo-D3it only costs about twice as much as a dvd9.Sep 16 02:05
Diablo-D3yuhong: thats implying commercially produced discsSep 16 02:05
Diablo-D3its just another cost of doing business anyhowSep 16 02:06
yuhongYes, now the cost is reduced, but that is not my point, I am talking about whether DRM-free discs are possible.Sep 16 02:06
yuhong 16 02:08
yuhongNot my point however.Sep 16 02:08
cubezzzyou have to buy a new tv or monitor, that's why people don't all rush to buy blu-raySep 16 02:09
Diablo-D3cubezzz: no you dontSep 16 02:09
Diablo-D3older tv == analogSep 16 02:09
cubezzzyesSep 16 02:09
Diablo-D3and yes, you can do 1080i over analogSep 16 02:09
Diablo-D3its a huge gigantic waste to play blurays on anything but a HDMI 1080p screen... but it can be doneSep 16 02:10
yuhongIt implys that DRM-free HD DVD discs are possible, but DRM-free Blu-Rays are not.Sep 16 02:10
Diablo-D3yuhong: afiak it is possibleSep 16 02:11
Diablo-D3but as i said, even if its not, they could very easily set a key aside for this situationSep 16 02:11
yuhongHow?Sep 16 02:11
Balrog afaik Blu-Ray does not block the analog hole right nowSep 16 02:11
Balrogbut the ability to do so existsSep 16 02:12
cubezzz1920x1080 (1080p), I'm pretty sure my computer monitor can't do thatSep 16 02:12
Diablo-D3cubezzz: mine can.Sep 16 02:12
cubezzzplus this box is way too slow :)Sep 16 02:12
yuhonghttp:// 16 02:13
yuhong"Sony has a contract with AACS that says that their encryption is required on every BD title. Not sure how long or what the details are. HD DVD can be mastered w/o AACS so I assume there was no exclusivity deal there."Sep 16 02:13
cubezzzso I would have to buy a new box for sureSep 16 02:13
Diablo-D3cubezzz: heh.Sep 16 02:13
Diablo-D3yuhong: nastySep 16 02:13
cubezzzIt would be interesting to try it on analog thoughSep 16 02:13
Diablo-D3clearly Sony will have to be sued.Sep 16 02:13
Diablo-D3or Ill just leak my AACS keySep 16 02:14
cubezzzthey is no way to stop copying if the guy is determined enoughSep 16 02:14
cubezzzthereSep 16 02:15
cubezzznot advocating copying per seSep 16 02:15
cubezzzjust an observationSep 16 02:15
yuhongNeither of which I recommend, when DRM-free videos catches on, I am sure they will have the details figured out.Sep 16 02:15
yuhongOne reason is that the same key block is used in many movies.Sep 16 02:17
yuhongWith HD DVD it is already technically possible, and if DRM-free movies catches on I am sure they will have the details figured out for Blu-Ray.Sep 16 02:17
cubezzzDRM free movies don't seem too likelySep 16 02:18
cubezzzmovie theatres, I would expect that to declineSep 16 02:19
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yuhongAs you said, there are indeed several options for Blu-Ray if they do want to do DRM-free movies.Sep 16 02:19
yuhong 16 02:24
yuhongI mean, how many AACS-free HD DVD movies are there in the first place?Sep 16 02:25
yuhongToday.Sep 16 02:25
yuhongNot many, I think.Sep 16 02:25
yuhongBut at least with HD DVD it is technically possible, while it seems to be mandatary for Blu-Ray.Sep 16 02:27
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yuhongThere may also be player compatiblity issues with DRM-free Blu-Ray, as right now it is mandatary:Sep 16 02:32
yuhong 16 02:32
yuhong 16 02:34
yuhongThey seem to suggest burning to BD-R to get DRM-free movies, which is certainly fine for small-scale publishers that can't afford replication.Sep 16 02:39
yuhongBut it seems that not all features can be used in this mode, unlike HD DVD.Sep 16 02:40
yuhongAnd all the compatiblity issues with DRM-free  Blu-Ray are still thereSep 16 02:41
yuhongFor example, BD-J don't seem to work without AACS.Sep 16 02:44
yuhongWhich requires replication.Sep 16 02:45
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zlgJohn Dobson, Amateur Astronimer, years ago invented a new type of telescop, that allowed amateur astronimers to build high power low cost telescopes.Sep 16 02:47
zlgHe could of patented the invention and made a huge amount of money, but instead he teaches every who is interested how to make them.Sep 16 02:48
fewageeze yuhong, what junkSep 16 02:48
zlgHe singlehandly revolutionised Amateur astronomy, by providing low cost high power and easily home made telescopes.Sep 16 02:49
zlg 16 02:49
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fewaMPAA getting handed the remote, and getting a monopoly on the technologySep 16 02:49
fewaThat is blatent misinformation of how patent law works zlgSep 16 02:51
fewaIf a someone got a patent on the cure for aids there would be nothing stopping them from sitting on their ass and laughing at all the people with AIDSSep 16 02:52
zlgwhat do you mean, it's not patented, so the law does not apply, I was just repeating what im seeing on the Documentry I am watching.Sep 16 02:52
fewaand then if someone actually tried to make it he could sue them and prevent them from making that cure for AIDSSep 16 02:52
fewaThat is the insanity of patent lawSep 16 02:52
fewawith an injunctionSep 16 02:53
zlgthats not what im saying at all, Im saying he is working under open innovation.Sep 16 02:53
fewa"He could of patented "Sep 16 02:53
fewaahhSep 16 02:53
fewaThe maker of fleece did that sort of thingSep 16 02:53
zlgwhich I thought (here) might be considered a good thing and a good example of the power of open innovation and what it can do to help the community.Sep 16 02:53
fewagreat man, when his texttile plant burned down in New England he rebuilt it on the spot and paid his workers until it was rebuiltSep 16 02:54
fewa*continued to pay his workersSep 16 02:54
zlgthats what the show said, another astronomer was saying it about donalsonSep 16 02:54
fewa 16 02:55
zlgsorry you lost me fewa, so ok, I was bringing to this channel an example where patents are not as good as open, but you find fault with everything, so fair enoughSep 16 02:55
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yuhongAnd oops, it appears that schestowitz missed the thing we just discussed about AACS mandatary for Blu-Ray, but not for HD DVD.Sep 16 03:07
yuhong"My only interest in the next-gen DVD format wars (as I’ve stated some times in USENET in the past week) is its impact on XBox360 and — by association — its draining of Microsoft’s coffers."Sep 16 03:08
yuhong 16 03:08
yuhongI mean, it appears that schestowitz did not realize that AACS DRM protections are mandatary for Blu-Ray, but not for HD DVD.Sep 16 03:09
yuhongOops.Sep 16 03:09
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twitterhe he.  yuhong thinks a M$ format would be drm free, as if Windows itself were not a digital restrictions platform and hd dvd would work anywhere but there OOOOOOoooooooopppppppsie!Sep 16 03:19
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fewaMicrosoft has long attempted to please the MPAASep 16 03:34
fewaand conspire with them to lock up innovationSep 16 03:35
fewathis has been widely documentedSep 16 03:35
fewaincluding from Bill Gates himselfSep 16 03:35
twitterrestrictions = failureSep 16 03:38
twitterfreedom = successSep 16 03:39
tessierwar = peaceSep 16 03:51
tessierWe have always been at war with OceaniaSep 16 03:51
fewaWe have always been in a "war on terror"Sep 16 03:58
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twitterlol at Myvold -> In CheapOS world, many fewer people would be working full time on system software, because there would be no revenue to support them. Features and functionality which support the current user base would consquently be lacking. Which means that the user base would be much smaller.Sep 16 04:21
twitterIn the 11 years that followed his observation, free software has gained more developers and features than M$ can dream about.Sep 16 04:22
_Hicham_free software has gained meSep 16 04:24
cubezzz1984 haSep 16 04:24
_Hicham_which is a great victory for FOSSSep 16 04:24
_Hicham_as well as twitterSep 16 04:24
cubezzzwell, 1984 didn't happen and neither did space 1999 :)Sep 16 04:25
twitterfree software did happenSep 16 04:26
_Hicham_yes, free software is one of the miracles of this centurySep 16 04:29
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DaemonFC 16 04:59
DaemonFCThe 15 Biggest Wikipedia BlundersSep 16 04:59
DaemonFClol?Sep 16 04:59
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cubezzzmsn, say no moreSep 16 05:01
DaemonFCcubezzz: Wikipedia's glaring inaccuracy is still staggeringSep 16 05:02
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DaemonFCit's now "The encyclopedia that you might be able to edit, once *someone* scrutinizes the submission"Sep 16 05:03
DaemonFCand who does that?Sep 16 05:03
DaemonFCsome biased administrator?Sep 16 05:03
DaemonFCone that lies about their credentials on their user page?Sep 16 05:03
DaemonFCone that really works for a PR firm or a lobbyist group?Sep 16 05:04
DaemonFCWikipedia is too contaminated to trustSep 16 05:04
DaemonFCthis move to require submission checking won't fix the problem, it's just letting different foxes guard the hen houseSep 16 05:04
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DaemonFC 16 05:18
fewaDaemonFC, there have been peer reviewed journal articles that have compared Wikipedia and Encyclopedia Briticania and found Wikipedia to be more accurateSep 16 05:18
fewaBut yes, there are alot of PR firms on WikipediaSep 16 05:19
fewabut on wikipedia there is at least a chance to remove the junk mythsSep 16 05:19
zlgIt's very existance depends on it's accuracy, too many errors and people wont use it.Sep 16 05:19
DaemonFCfewa: Peer reviewed by Wikipedia no doubtSep 16 05:19
DaemonFCor some FSF personSep 16 05:20
fewanot at allSep 16 05:20
DaemonFCthe result of a "peer reviewed" study depends entirely on who the "peers" areSep 16 05:20
DaemonFCpeople just say "peer reviewed" because it sounds better than "some guy who may be just as biased as the next"Sep 16 05:20
fewa 16 05:21
fewaHere is on from Nature Joe Scarborough Is Shocked, Yet Awed by Single-Payer LogicSep 16 05:21
fewa* 16 05:21
zlgIve found it very good and getting better all the time.Sep 16 05:21
DaemonFCfewa: I've never seen a real encyclopedia get vandalized to pronounce people dead, gay, or Hitler worshippersSep 16 05:21
fewa_highly_ respected peer review journalSep 16 05:22
DaemonFCuntil I see a real encyclopedia have something retarded like that on their articles, Wikipedia is bunkSep 16 05:22
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fewaDaemonFC, have you ever read 1901 encyclopedia britanica?Sep 16 05:22
DaemonFCI've routinely ran into things like "PENIS PENIS PENIS!!!!!" in the middle of a paragraph in WikipediaSep 16 05:22
DaemonFCI don't know WHY I bother to fix their bullshitSep 16 05:22
fewaDaemonFC, and what harm does such obvious vadalism do to sensible people?Sep 16 05:23
DaemonFCbecause it's not all that obviousSep 16 05:23
fewaIts the deliberate lies that are much more damagingSep 16 05:23
DaemonFCthe bigger problems are weasel wordsSep 16 05:23
fewaDaemonFC, you cant have it both waysSep 16 05:23
DaemonFCyou fix weasel words and an administrator reverts it to where they are backSep 16 05:23
zlgDeamonFC Examples ?Sep 16 05:23
DaemonFCyou fix euphemisms that companies like Microsoft put in to describe things like DRMSep 16 05:23
fewaDaemonFC, look at the Nature articleSep 16 05:23
DaemonFCand some administrator reverts it backSep 16 05:24
DaemonFCfuck themSep 16 05:24
fewaand that doesn't even touch on the fact that Wikipedia has vastly more information than any thing that could be comparedSep 16 05:24
fewaSure, its not perfectSep 16 05:24
DaemonFCWikipedia is the faux-encyclopedia that any corporate PR agency can editSep 16 05:24
fewaDaemonFC, read "Manufacturing Consent"Sep 16 05:25
fewa*watchSep 16 05:25
fewa 16 05:25
DaemonFCWikipedia is crapSep 16 05:25
fewawatch itSep 16 05:25
DaemonFCthey allow obvious weasel wordingSep 16 05:25
fewaDaemonFC, ask that to the million who use it every daySep 16 05:25
DaemonFClook at their "Articles with weasel words" listSep 16 05:25
fewaand millions who contributeSep 16 05:25
DaemonFCthose are jsut the articles flagged that their bureaucrats won't fixSep 16 05:25
DaemonFCthen shit goes to a "community vote" where the companies involved stuff the ballot boxSep 16 05:26
fewaDaemonFC, Wikipedia has millions of articles, can a few administrators work on every article?Sep 16 05:26
DaemonFCand the biased article remainsSep 16 05:26
fewaanyways read te videoSep 16 05:27
fewa*watchSep 16 05:27
DaemonFCWikipedia is just too bloated and bureaucratic and broken to fixSep 16 05:27
zlgwhat do you mean about weasel words ?Sep 16 05:27
DaemonFC"some people say"Sep 16 05:28
DaemonFC"critics argue that"Sep 16 05:28
DaemonFC"few would deny"Sep 16 05:28
DaemonFC"So and so is an excellent such and such"Sep 16 05:28
DaemonFC"Widget X is the best widget in the world"Sep 16 05:29
DaemonFCencyclopedias don't have an opinionSep 16 05:29
DaemonFCencyclopedias are not a collection of triviaSep 16 05:29
DaemonFCencyclopedias don't have articles replaced with "PENIS PENIS PENIS LULZ!!!!111"Sep 16 05:30
DaemonFCWikipedia is a fake encyclopediaSep 16 05:31
DaemonFCit's a collection of opinionated bullshit and trivia masquerading as important contentSep 16 05:31
zlg"few woulod deny" that the use of such terms could be defined as the very thing the artice tries to describe, weasel words.Sep 16 05:32
DaemonFCit also cites schestowitz favorite company in the world for operating system statsSep 16 05:32
DaemonFCNet ApplicationsSep 16 05:32
DaemonFCso that must mean that Net Applications is a good sourceSep 16 05:32
DaemonFCright?Sep 16 05:32
zlgThe subject matter is etomology, thats what it is, conjecture and suppersitionSep 16 05:32
DaemonFCWankerpediaSep 16 05:32
zlg 16 05:34
zlgcompare with that, it's all pure factural information, no "It is said" and so on, it is dependant upon subject matterSep 16 05:35
DaemonFC 16 05:35
zlgSo ?Sep 16 05:36
DaemonFCWikipedia is jsut trying to ge trid of the obvious and really embarrassing stupiditySep 16 05:36
DaemonFCnot to get rid of the real problemsSep 16 05:36
DaemonFC*get ridSep 16 05:36
zlgthe other thing is availability, alot more people would have a PC and a net connection than a full set up recent up to date set of hard copy booksSep 16 05:42
DaemonFCzlg: CD-ROMSep 16 05:45
zlgthats true, and I that also be continued, and reminds me I have a CD-ROM, but never use it, :)Sep 16 05:47
zlgwhat would be a problem is that the enclypodia's cease to exist and wikki was all there was to rely on.Sep 16 05:48
zlgneed multiple sourcesSep 16 05:48
zlgand peer review is usually by august bodies, like SCIENCE mag, or the Royal Sciety, or an assembled group of experts in the field, scientists submit "papers" that are reviewed before publishing.Sep 16 05:50
DaemonFCthe Wikipedia articles often don't cite sourcesSep 16 05:50
DaemonFCor only cite sources from the company PR page of the product the article is aboutSep 16 05:51
DaemonFCa lot of sources they cite are dead linksSep 16 05:51
DaemonFCPR companies have spent a lot of time and effort figuring out exactly how to game WikipediaSep 16 05:52
DaemonFCand they've turned it into a PR toolSep 16 05:52
DaemonFCsometimes their staffers benignly edit other articlesSep 16 05:53
DaemonFCsometimes their staffers list some criticism of the company to make the spam article seem more balancedSep 16 05:54
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DaemonFCsometimes they just remove all criticism and set up a "criticism of..." page that nobody ever readsSep 16 05:54
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_Hicham_DaemonFC the biggest trollSep 16 06:23
_Hicham_u will die while u r trolling for sureSep 16 06:23
DaemonFCMuslim threat?Sep 16 06:23
DaemonFC:)Sep 16 06:23
DaemonFCI'm in the camp that says pretty much everyone should be required to own a gunSep 16 06:26
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DaemonFCthere'd be a lot less bullshit in the world if a person knew they'd be shot before committing their crimeSep 16 06:27
zlgor they just make sure they havea bigger gun and faster trigger than you.Sep 16 06:28
zlgit's a lose / loseSep 16 06:28
DaemonFCnot reallySep 16 06:28
DaemonFCthere's a lot of crime because almsot nobody carries a gun on themSep 16 06:29
DaemonFCthe perpetrator knows they'll probably get away with itSep 16 06:29
DaemonFC*almostSep 16 06:29
zlgwe have less crime here and no one carries a gun, except the copsSep 16 06:29
DaemonFCYou threaten me? I will fuck you upSep 16 06:29
DaemonFCthat's a promiseSep 16 06:29
DaemonFCit keeps arguments shortSep 16 06:29
_Hicham_I didn't threaten uSep 16 06:30
_Hicham_u will die from a heart attackSep 16 06:30
_Hicham_trolling isn't good for healthSep 16 06:30
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DaemonFCI usually keep a .40 S&W on meSep 16 06:31
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DaemonFCit handles well enough, fairly light, good stopping powerSep 16 06:31
_Hicham_u r the one who is threatening in hereSep 16 06:32
_Hicham_see ?Sep 16 06:32
_Hicham_hehSep 16 06:32
DaemonFCalso, of all the guns I've fired, I've never had this one jamSep 16 06:32
zlgthere is only one thing guns are good for, that is if you want to kill something,Sep 16 06:33
DaemonFCit's also pretty easy to cleanSep 16 06:33
DaemonFCthey're affordable tooSep 16 06:33
_Hicham_I will send u in a long coma just with a slap of my bare handSep 16 06:34
_Hicham_I won't need weapons with uSep 16 06:34
DaemonFCyou can get one new for about $180Sep 16 06:34
_Hicham_as I said, I don't need weaponsSep 16 06:34
_Hicham_coz I am not afraid of anyoneSep 16 06:34
DaemonFC 16 06:34
DaemonFCthere it isSep 16 06:34
DaemonFCnot stylish, but it gets the job doneSep 16 06:34
zlg9mm browning pistol, F1 9mm Sub-machine gun, AR, Military L1A1, shotguns, up to 5 inch ship mounted cannon, and the 40 cal machine gun they are all fun, but still designed to kill.Sep 16 06:35
_Hicham_this guy is in real panicSep 16 06:35
_Hicham_hahaSep 16 06:35
_Hicham_although no one is even looking at himSep 16 06:36
_Hicham_he suffers badly from lonelinessSep 16 06:36
_Hicham_he will end up killing himself with his own gunSep 16 06:36
MinceR 16 06:36
_Hicham_that what guns are made forSep 16 06:36
_Hicham_for committing suicideSep 16 06:36
DaemonFC_Hicham_: NopeSep 16 06:36
DaemonFCevery day I live is another victory over the heathensSep 16 06:37
DaemonFC:)Sep 16 06:37
MinceRwho are the "heathens"?Sep 16 06:37
DaemonFCin the sense of an uncivilized person, MinceRSep 16 06:37
MinceRi'm unfamiliar with that sense of the wordSep 16 06:38
*_Hicham_ don't think that DaemonFC can be a civilized personSep 16 06:39
MinceRbut now i knowSep 16 06:39
DaemonFC_Hicham_ loves me, don't let him fool youSep 16 06:39
MinceRi knowSep 16 06:40
_Hicham_oooooooooooh yeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeahSep 16 06:40
DaemonFChis delusion is all about love you knowSep 16 06:40
_Hicham_I love all the people on earth on buddySep 16 06:40
DaemonFCand sunshine and kitty katsSep 16 06:40
_Hicham_but u don't love anyoneSep 16 06:41
_Hicham_u don't even love urselfSep 16 06:41
DaemonFCthat's called narcissism dearSep 16 06:41
DaemonFCnarcissismSep 16 06:41
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_Hicham_u r not narcissistSep 16 06:42
_Hicham_u hate urselfSep 16 06:42
_Hicham_and u gonna end up committing suicideSep 16 06:42
DaemonFCwhy do you say that?Sep 16 06:42
_Hicham_it is obviousSep 16 06:42
DaemonFCbecause I think religion is bullshit?Sep 16 06:42
_Hicham_from the way u talkSep 16 06:42
_Hicham_noSep 16 06:42
DaemonFCor because I think people in general are bullshit?Sep 16 06:42
_Hicham_because u r filled with crap from ur mediaSep 16 06:43
DaemonFCI don't hate them for being full of shitSep 16 06:43
DaemonFCif I had to hate people just for being full of shit, I'd hate more people than you doSep 16 06:43
DaemonFCand that couldn't be healthySep 16 06:43
_Hicham_if u keep on going like that, u gonna commit suicide for sureSep 16 06:44
_Hicham_so be carefulSep 16 06:44
DaemonFC_Hicham_: Religious people amuse meSep 16 06:44
DaemonFCjust keep blowing each other up nowSep 16 06:44
fewaMinceR, niceSep 16 06:44
DaemonFCrun alongSep 16 06:44
fewaMinceR, they deserve a big smacking negligence suit over that type of thingsSep 16 06:44
MinceRindeedSep 16 06:45
_Hicham_DaemonFC : while u keep blowing the other waySep 16 06:45
fewaas their own policy states they will provide security support for another 5 yearsSep 16 06:45
DaemonFC_Hicham_: At least I've come to the truth that there is no "higher power" and if there was one that told me to murder people for no particularly good reason, I'd check myself into the psychiatric unitSep 16 06:46
DaemonFCbecause that's schizophrenia you know?Sep 16 06:46
DaemonFCReligion appeals to the mentally ill, but the abuses of the religious also lead other people to become mentally illSep 16 06:47
_Hicham_DaemonFC : u r really a typical american from the 50sSep 16 06:47
DaemonFCit's like a survival mechanismSep 16 06:47
fewa 16 06:47
DaemonFC_Hicham_: How so?Sep 16 06:47
_Hicham_Whether u like it or not, u r living in a religious countrySep 16 06:48
DaemonFCBecause I think your religion is entirely full of shit?Sep 16 06:48
DaemonFCbecause I think all religion is full of shit?Sep 16 06:48
_Hicham_think what u wantSep 16 06:48
DaemonFCthere's different kind of religionSep 16 06:48
DaemonFCthere's ones like yours that tell you to go murder everyone elseSep 16 06:48
DaemonFCthere's kinds liek Christianity that just go door to door annoying peopleSep 16 06:48
DaemonFCI suppose if I had to take sides, it would be door to door nuisance instead of door to door suicide bombersSep 16 06:49
_Hicham_does that mean that religion is bad ?Sep 16 06:49
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DaemonFC_Hicham_: YeahSep 16 06:49
DaemonFCsome are more of a pain in the ass than othersSep 16 06:49
_Hicham_do u have some logic in ur head ?Sep 16 06:49
DaemonFCsome are actively dangerousSep 16 06:49
_Hicham_I mean, u seem to have brainSep 16 06:50
_Hicham_but, is there any logic ?Sep 16 06:50
DaemonFC_Hicham_: The Christians are just a pain in the assSep 16 06:50
_Hicham_can u do logical computations in ur head ?Sep 16 06:50
DaemonFCon the danger scale of 1 being peaceful and 10 being suicide bomber, I'd rate them a 2 or maybe a 3Sep 16 06:50
_Hicham_u r insulting people for no obvious reasonSep 16 06:50
zlgmore to the point he's insulting peoples belief systems, based purly on the fact that they are not his own.Sep 16 06:51
_Hicham_what would a person blow himself in ur opinion ?Sep 16 06:51
_Hicham_*whySep 16 06:51
DaemonFCno, based on the fact that they are all full of shit and all are a pain in the ass, and some are an active dangerSep 16 06:52
_Hicham_he said "all"Sep 16 06:52
_Hicham_see ?Sep 16 06:52
_Hicham_u should really read some basic logicSep 16 06:52
_Hicham_I don't know how much education u had, but the way u think is really childishSep 16 06:53
zlgyour also confusing extreeminism with religion, extreemism is more dangerous that  "main stream" religionSep 16 06:53
DaemonFCthere is no such thing as extremism because they're all extremistsSep 16 06:53
DaemonFCthe only question is how extremeSep 16 06:54
_Hicham_wow, I am an extremist thenSep 16 06:54
_Hicham_correct ?Sep 16 06:54
DaemonFConce you start believing in invisible sky gods, you're kind of "out there"Sep 16 06:54
DaemonFCyou know?Sep 16 06:54
zlgno, actually its a bell curve, with "moderates" being the peak and extreemism on well the extremitiesSep 16 06:54
DaemonFCreligion appeals to the extremely stupid or the extremely mentally unbalancedSep 16 06:55
DaemonFCpreferably bothSep 16 06:55
MinceRjust believing that a god exists doesn't automatically make someone an extremistSep 16 06:55
DaemonFCMinceR: Yeah it doesSep 16 06:55
MinceRthe associated beliefs might, thoughSep 16 06:55
MinceRhow?Sep 16 06:56
zlgsee when you fall back on basic blind statements it's clear you cannot form a strong argument for your cause.Sep 16 06:56
DaemonFCMinceR: You're telling me that someone who says they know for sure that which cannot ever be proven is a smart person or a sane person?Sep 16 06:56
_Hicham_he can't argueSep 16 06:56
_Hicham_he is a parrotSep 16 06:56
_Hicham_repeating the same thingsSep 16 06:56
DaemonFCMinceR: I could tell you with the same conviction that pixies existSep 16 06:56
_Hicham_a computer thinks than himSep 16 06:56
DaemonFChas about as much chance as AllahSep 16 06:56
MinceRDaemonFC: no, i'm telling you that he isn't an extremistSep 16 06:56
MinceRDaemonFC: he can have a balanced personalitySep 16 06:57
MinceRDaemonFC: he might have guessed a truth or he might have a harmless delusionSep 16 06:57
DaemonFCMinceR: There's something deeply wrong with a person that can even go as far as stating there is a godSep 16 06:57
DaemonFCas factSep 16 06:57
DaemonFCit jsut gets worse from thereSep 16 06:57
DaemonFC*justSep 16 06:57
MinceRDaemonFC: how does this affect their behavior?Sep 16 06:57
DaemonFCMinceR: It affects every aspect of their personalitySep 16 06:58
DaemonFCeverything they do or say or thinkSep 16 06:58
zlgif you know about science you cannot prove a negative, you cannot prove flying hourses DONT exit, only that  you have not discovered them yet.Sep 16 06:58
DaemonFCso I'd say it's a pretty serious delusionSep 16 06:58
DaemonFCMinceR: It affects how they interact with othersSep 16 06:59
DaemonFChow they treat women as property or objectsSep 16 06:59
DaemonFChow they are to kill or convert othersSep 16 06:59
MinceRno it doesn'tSep 16 06:59
MinceRthat doesn't result from believing that there is a godSep 16 06:59
DaemonFCjust believing in god is the foundation for all kinds of wickednessSep 16 06:59
MinceRthat results from believing that said god dictates some sort of behavior by divine decreeSep 16 06:59
MinceRthat's an entirely different beliefSep 16 07:00
DaemonFCMinceR: Getting you to believe in their god is the foot in the doorSep 16 07:00
_Hicham_this guy is in a serious mental illnessSep 16 07:00
DaemonFCthe crazy fucked up shit comes in digestible pieces soon afterSep 16 07:00
_Hicham_and need to go back to schoolSep 16 07:00
MinceRDaemonFC: if it was then they'd all believe each other's religionsSep 16 07:00
MinceReven though they contradict each otherSep 16 07:00
DaemonFCMinceR: That's why they all teach that they are the ONE TRUE religionSep 16 07:01
DaemonFCand that everyone else is to be converted or murderedSep 16 07:01
MinceRnot all of them teach thatSep 16 07:01
_Hicham_DaemonFC : I am gonna ask u a question, and try to use ur head to answer meSep 16 07:01
MinceRlearn some theology :>Sep 16 07:01
_Hicham_ok ?Sep 16 07:01
DaemonFC_Hicham_: Well, considering I can't Phone a DietySep 16 07:02
DaemonFCI guess I'm sort of on my ownSep 16 07:02
DaemonFCbut I'll trySep 16 07:02
DaemonFC*DeitySep 16 07:02
DaemonFC_Hicham_: But if I am allowed to call a God to help me answer...Sep 16 07:03
DaemonFCI'll call GaneshaSep 16 07:03
_Hicham_DaemonFC : how can u explain the fact that some things that were said in Quran over one thousand years ago, were proven lately to be true ? I am talking about scientific factsSep 16 07:03
DaemonFCelephants are fucking coolSep 16 07:03
DaemonFCthat's whySep 16 07:03
_Hicham_explain that plzSep 16 07:03
_Hicham_try to use ur headSep 16 07:03
DaemonFC_Hicham_: Because you are selectively readingSep 16 07:03
DaemonFCand willing to go on a stretch to make these bogus claimsSep 16 07:04
zlgyou';ll have to be more specific _Hicham_ what things ?Sep 16 07:04
DaemonFCevery religion will say that they've been proven trueSep 16 07:04
DaemonFCany other questions?Sep 16 07:04
_Hicham_selectively reading the whole Quran ?Sep 16 07:04
DaemonFC_Hicham_: You cherry pickSep 16 07:04
DaemonFCevery religion does itSep 16 07:04
_Hicham_I am talking about scientific factsSep 16 07:04
MinceRwell, selectively reading "holy" texts is what they all doSep 16 07:04
_Hicham_give me an example of selectively readingSep 16 07:05
DaemonFCMinceR: It's a given that out of 2,000-ish pages in the typical holy book, that there will be some things that are correctSep 16 07:05
DaemonFCit's jsut not avoidableSep 16 07:05
DaemonFCit's like throwing darts over your shoulder til you hit a bulsleyeSep 16 07:05
DaemonFCgiven 2,000 darts, you probably will hit a fewSep 16 07:05
DaemonFC*bullseyeSep 16 07:05
DaemonFC_Hicham_: If *I* wrote a 2,000 page book with predictions of what the world would be like 1,000 years from nowSep 16 07:06
DaemonFCchances are *I* would get a few things about rightSep 16 07:06
zlgsaying if something in a book really happened or not is certainly no proof of a god.Sep 16 07:06
_Hicham_not predictionsSep 16 07:06
_Hicham_just scientific factsSep 16 07:06
DaemonFCand people who worship me as their prophet would point at the 10 things I got right out of 2,000 "predictions"Sep 16 07:06
DaemonFCand use it to bullshit people about how their religion based on DaemonFC worship is the one true waySep 16 07:07
DaemonFC_Hicham_: Nobody is _always_ wrongSep 16 07:07
DaemonFCeven the most pathological liar will occasionally tell the truthSep 16 07:08
DaemonFCeven an idiot will have a moment of claritySep 16 07:08
DaemonFCand even religions will get something right now and thenSep 16 07:08
DaemonFCif they never did, they wouldn't appeal to anyoneSep 16 07:08
_Hicham_can u explain human embryonic development ?Sep 16 07:09
DaemonFCI'm not a scientistSep 16 07:09
_Hicham_said in QuranSep 16 07:09
DaemonFCI'd go ask a scientistSep 16 07:09
_Hicham_it was said in a time where there was no scienceSep 16 07:10
DaemonFC_Hicham_: I doubt itSep 16 07:10
_Hicham_the development was explained thouroughlySep 16 07:10
DaemonFCyou're reading into this too muchSep 16 07:10
_Hicham_noSep 16 07:10
DaemonFCgrasping at strawsSep 16 07:10
MinceRwell, that time is over, no need for "holy" texts anymoreSep 16 07:10
DaemonFCto justify yourselfSep 16 07:10
_Hicham_it is explained very well, in clear sentencesSep 16 07:10
DaemonFCI doubt the Qur'an explains DNA sequencesSep 16 07:10
DaemonFCor chromosomesSep 16 07:11
zlgwhy should it ?Sep 16 07:11
DaemonFCit couldn't, because they couldn't know about any such thing back thenSep 16 07:11
DaemonFCwhich is why I don't believe _Hicham_Sep 16 07:11
_Hicham_how could they know the embryonic development ?Sep 16 07:11
zlgwe'll you answered your own question , your point is ?Sep 16 07:11
DaemonFCzlg: It's either knowledge acquired through scientific observation or it's a lucky guessSep 16 07:12
DaemonFClucky guesses aren't specificSep 16 07:12
DaemonFClucky guesses fill religious textsSep 16 07:12
DaemonFCthe page or two of every religious book that become the most cited of the entire bookSep 16 07:13
zlgor its history, taken from actual real observation, or a story written as fiction, it['s _NOT_ just one OR the other.Sep 16 07:13
DaemonFCa work of fiction and religion are more or less the same thingSep 16 07:13
DaemonFCL. Ron Hubbard turned science fiction into a multi billion dollar religionSep 16 07:14
zlgDa vinci code contained facts and things that really happend, but the compte story is fiction.Sep 16 07:14
DaemonFCpeople are stupid and easily deceivedSep 16 07:14
DaemonFCand therefore, they believe truly ANYTHINGSep 16 07:14
DaemonFCa person is smart, a person thinks for themselvesSep 16 07:15
DaemonFC_people_ are dumbSep 16 07:15
DaemonFCpeople engage in groupthinkSep 16 07:15
zlgwhat I said before, just because something true happend in a book does not mean that is proof of the existance of a god, or proof of the NON existance of it.Sep 16 07:15
DaemonFC_Hicham_: The freedom to figure things out for yourself is the only freedom you haveSep 16 07:16
DaemonFCto give that to religion is selling yourself into bondageSep 16 07:16
MinceRyou are free to make mistakes, too :>Sep 16 07:16
zlgwhat if you use that FREEDOM to think for yourself and you think you decide upon religious belief ?Sep 16 07:16
DaemonFCzlg: A lot of people can't think for themselves and so turn over their thinking to religionSep 16 07:17
_Hicham_wrongSep 16 07:17
_Hicham_very wrongSep 16 07:17
DaemonFCzlg:  The people that develop religions due it for obvious reasonsSep 16 07:17
_Hicham_religion is not against thinkingSep 16 07:17
DaemonFCto victimize and exploit less intelligent peopleSep 16 07:17
DaemonFCnotbecause they believe itSep 16 07:17
DaemonFCreligion is widespread because governments can use it to "legitimize" themselvesSep 16 07:18
DaemonFCto exert power over youSep 16 07:18
MinceRnot only governmentsSep 16 07:18
DaemonFCyou would question the president, but you won't question GodSep 16 07:18
DaemonFCMinceR: Every government promotes religion to some extentSep 16 07:19
DaemonFCand in return, the religion tells followers to be patrioticSep 16 07:19
zlgwhy is it if you are so anti religious you still have to spell God with a Capitol ?? :DSep 16 07:19
DaemonFCzlg: In a sense that they have personified a specific "God"Sep 16 07:19
DaemonFCin the sense that they fear "God"Sep 16 07:20
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DaemonFCin a sense that they obey anything "God" tells themSep 16 07:20
DaemonFCthe capitalization is my way of mocking themSep 16 07:20
zlgit's usually a sign of reverenceSep 16 07:20
_Hicham_American is christianSep 16 07:20
_Hicham_why the president have to swear using the Bible ?Sep 16 07:21
DaemonFCzlg: You also capitalize the names of fictional charactersSep 16 07:21
_Hicham_*AmericaSep 16 07:21
DaemonFCso I suppose there's that tooSep 16 07:21
DaemonFCI'm referring to the fictional character of God, or of Allah, or of GaneshSep 16 07:21
DaemonFC_Hicham_ worships a cartoonSep 16 07:21
DaemonFChe may as wellSep 16 07:22
MinceRDaemonFC: actually not every government does, at least not in the commonly accepted strict sense of the word 'religion'Sep 16 07:22
MinceRDaemonFC: when we had a socialist government here, they were pretty much against itSep 16 07:22
MinceR(during the dictatorship, that is)Sep 16 07:22
DaemonFCMinceR: And what happened to that government?Sep 16 07:22
MinceRit failed eventuallySep 16 07:22
DaemonFCof courseSep 16 07:22
MinceRalong with the USSR and the entire eastern blocSep 16 07:22
DaemonFCbecause you questioned itSep 16 07:22
MinceRno, not because of thatSep 16 07:22
DaemonFCand when you questioned it, you got rid of itSep 16 07:22
MinceRprobably because they ruined economy by following their bullshit ideologySep 16 07:23
DaemonFCeven the PRC is allowing religion nowSep 16 07:23
_Hicham_DaemonFC : u talk like an opressed childSep 16 07:23
DaemonFCexperimenting with allowing it anywaySep 16 07:23
MinceRthe PRC is not the same kind of socialist dictatorshipSep 16 07:23
_Hicham_because u r lacking freedomSep 16 07:23
_Hicham_u r not freeSep 16 07:23
DaemonFCthey know that having a religious population and religions that sign off on the government is the only way to lasting stabilitySep 16 07:23
_Hicham_and u don't feel freeSep 16 07:23
DaemonFCMinceR: Religion *is* the opium of the peopleSep 16 07:24
DaemonFCthat's why Communism has a hard time thrivingSep 16 07:24
_Hicham_hahaSep 16 07:24
_Hicham_read too much MarxSep 16 07:24
DaemonFCthey took the opium awaySep 16 07:24
MinceRthen again you could say that cult of personality is a sort of religion, tooSep 16 07:24
_Hicham_no, u still have opium in americaSep 16 07:24
DaemonFC_Hicham_: It's just an irony that Communism sews the seeds of its own collapseSep 16 07:24
DaemonFCthat's why the surviving Communist regimes are trying to set up state approved religionsSep 16 07:25
MinceRDaemonFC: the people don't have to get their opium from the governmentSep 16 07:25
DaemonFC_Hicham_: Ask yourself if you believe the things you're toldSep 16 07:26
DaemonFCdon't go ask some religious figure what you should believeSep 16 07:26
DaemonFCof course they'll tell you to believe even moreSep 16 07:26
_Hicham_I always use my mindSep 16 07:26
_Hicham_and I am happy to use itSep 16 07:26
DaemonFCask yourself if you can do the things they ask of you in good conscienceSep 16 07:26
_Hicham_to find things out myselfSep 16 07:26
_Hicham_my religion is organizing societySep 16 07:26
_Hicham_not telling me how to thinkSep 16 07:27
DaemonFC_Hicham_: They're subtle in many casesSep 16 07:27
DaemonFCthey work their evil in small dosesSep 16 07:27
_Hicham_think of my religion as a specSep 16 07:27
_Hicham_it may be implemented in different waySep 16 07:27
_Hicham_but if u adhere to the specs, u won't get lostSep 16 07:28
_Hicham_and produce a very good implementationSep 16 07:28
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[nickballard] RT: @channeldvorak: Obama supports extending Patriot Act 16 07:28
_Hicham_that is a simple way to see my religionSep 16 07:28
DaemonFCanything that tells you to kill or hate or oppress for them without asking if there's a good reason is not something I want any part ofSep 16 07:28
Diablo-D3 16 07:28
DaemonFCin my case, they were asking me to hate and oppress myselfSep 16 07:29
DaemonFCnot in so many wordsSep 16 07:29
DaemonFCthey never say god hates you, not directlySep 16 07:29
DaemonFCthey say "god hates what you're doing"Sep 16 07:29
_Hicham_this KMS is changing the way we have to code OpenGL programsSep 16 07:30
DaemonFCso they can skirt around their own ground rule that god doesn't hate anyoneSep 16 07:30
_Hicham_anyone in here is using OpenGL on Linux ?Sep 16 07:30
_Hicham_any 3D Linux Programmer in here ?Sep 16 07:30
DaemonFC_Hicham_: If you use desktop compositing, you areSep 16 07:30
MinceRi'm using opengl on linuxSep 16 07:30
_Hicham_it is not about desktop compositingSep 16 07:30
MinceRfor desktop compositing and gamingSep 16 07:30
DaemonFCKMS is probably not going to be in Nvidia for a long timeSep 16 07:31
_Hicham_writing OpenGL programs for KMS enabled machines means less codeSep 16 07:31
DaemonFCanyhow, bblSep 16 07:31
_Hicham_and also, less cpu/gpu powerSep 16 07:33
MinceRi'd expect it to normally mean no difference in codingSep 16 07:33
MinceRas the opengl libraries remain the sameSep 16 07:33
_Hicham_the OpenGL libraries remain the sameSep 16 07:33
MinceR(and so do the headers)Sep 16 07:34
_Hicham_but some loops and signals can be omitted with KMSSep 16 07:34
_Hicham_because the kernel handles themSep 16 07:34
_Hicham_directlySep 16 07:34
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MinceRit's probably not a good idea to omit them, as that would break portability :>Sep 16 07:37
_Hicham_yes, that is what I am talking aboutSep 16 07:39
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schestowitzObama supports extending Patriot Act provisions < > Another one for the Obama puppet. Instead of rescinding it as he promised, it gets extendedSep 16 08:12
*_goblin ( has joined #boycottnovellSep 16 08:15
fewayeah same for his promise for transparancy and accountabilitySep 16 08:15
schestowitzHe's a good presidentSep 16 08:15
schestowitzTo 'them', not to the citizensSep 16 08:16
fewawhen his lawyers go before the district court of appeals and claim that noone can sue anyone President for any reason under any circumstancesSep 16 08:16
fewa*noone can sue the President for any reason under any circumstancesSep 16 08:16
schestowitzThey plan on recruiting for "civil service"Sep 16 08:16
schestowitzLike unarmed police to 'control things'Sep 16 08:16
schestowitz3 months or so for every citizensSep 16 08:17
schestowitzAnd para-military sort of thing for every young person, tooSep 16 08:17
schestowitzWhat is this?Sep 16 08:17
schestowitzAre they at war?Sep 16 08:17
schestowitzAnswer: yesSep 16 08:17
schestowitzWar with themselvesSep 16 08:17
schestowitzWar of classesSep 16 08:17
fewapropaganda terms: "enemy combatant" instead of Prisoner of War; "enhanced interrogation techniques" instead of TortureSep 16 08:18
schestowitz[08:16] <fewa> *noone can sue the President for any reason under any circumstancesSep 16 08:18
schestowitzWhat about the Fedral Reserve? It's about the law.Sep 16 08:18
schestowitzNot even the government has veto power over itSep 16 08:18
fewaI'm not kidding about that oneSep 16 08:18
fewa 16 08:19
schestowitzAt least it says "Obama Administration" and not "Obama"Sep 16 08:20
fewaand I said "his lawyers"Sep 16 08:20
schestowitzSame old administration (with some "obama" brand around it), same old plansSep 16 08:20
fewaClinton all over againSep 16 08:20
schestowitzWHat about NAFTA?Sep 16 08:21
schestowitzSo many people got suckeredSep 16 08:21
fewajust recently they decided that the easiest way to control the deficiet is to take it out of senior citizen's social security checksSep 16 08:21
schestowitzBob Sutor got annoyed when I told him that...Sep 16 08:21
fewaby faking inflation numbersSep 16 08:21
schestowitzSo many people still live in Obama WOnderland and won't pay attention to what happensSep 16 08:21
fewalifereaSep 16 08:21
schestowitzTHey have "won"... they elected 'their' man... all will be fine nowSep 16 08:22
schestowitzOh wait....Sep 16 08:22
schestowitzI saw something good yesterday:Sep 16 08:22
schestowitz 16 08:22
fewa 16 08:22
fewa^Obama fixing inflationSep 16 08:22
schestowitzThis should be at the front page of every paperSep 16 08:22
schestowitz[08:22] <fewa> ^Obama fixing inflationSep 16 08:23
fewaRipping people off of their social securitySep 16 08:23
schestowitzYou mean, the WallStreeters who run his 'cabinet'?Sep 16 08:23
fewaIts the consequence of our government cash-based accountingSep 16 08:23
*schestowitz is blinded by FOX.Sep 16 08:23
fewaany corporation that did such a thing would have its CEO put in jailSep 16 08:24
fewaschestowitz, agreedSep 16 08:24
fewaamazing he fights them on their home turfSep 16 08:24
fewaalso here:Sep 16 08:24
fewa 16 08:24
schestowitzFox again????Sep 16 08:25
fewaBut not only FOX plays spin: 16 08:25
fewawell I disclaimed itSep 16 08:25
fewa<fewa> amazing he fights them on their home turfSep 16 08:25
fewaie FauxSep 16 08:26
schestowitzI se.Sep 16 08:26
schestowitzI see. Well, better than preaching to the chairSep 16 08:26
schestowitzOr choir even!Sep 16 08:26
fewalawlSep 16 08:26
fewaI like LiberalViewer on youtubeSep 16 08:27
fewa 16 08:27
fewahas a great log of Faux bias 16 08:28
fewabut as you see MSNBC morning joe just spouted the corporate lineSep 16 08:30
fewauntil Weiner clearly stated "the emperor has no clothes"Sep 16 08:31
*schestowitz watchesSep 16 08:31
fewa<schestowitz> You mean, the WallStreeters who run his 'cabinet'?Sep 16 08:32
fewaYesSep 16 08:32
fewabut it is Obama that hired them, and Obama that can change things at the stroke of a penSep 16 08:32
schestowitzEven Rahm Emmanuel is a former banksterSep 16 08:32
schestowitzAP Enterprise: Bullying laws give scant protection 16 08:32
fewaObama could pull of IraqSep 16 08:35
fewasomething the majority of Americans want, and the vast majority of those who elected him wantSep 16 08:36
schestowitzI bookmarked that Fox deception gallery fir later viewingSep 16 08:36
schestowitzIs Google Just Toying With Newspapers Now? < >Sep 16 08:36
schestowitz[08:35] <fewa> Obama could pull of IraqSep 16 08:36
schestowitzHe hasn'tSep 16 08:36
fewaThats why i say "could"Sep 16 08:37
schestowitzAnd they found a loopholeSep 16 08:37
schestowitzI'd need to find the refSep 16 08:37
fewaHe is not representing those who elected himSep 16 08:37
schestowitzTHey could use non-perms or somethingSep 16 08:37
schestowitzThe plan is not to quitSep 16 08:37
fewaHe is not fufilling the promises that were the foundations of his electionSep 16 08:37
*Diablo-D3 has quit ("do coders dream of sheep()?")Sep 16 08:37
schestowitzAnd they also increase presence (occupation) in AfghanistanSep 16 08:37
fewaWe are always at war with IraqSep 16 08:37
schestowitzIt's a strategic thing, to control world's fossil fuelSep 16 08:37
DaemonFCschestowitz: You criticize Fox News?Sep 16 08:38
schestowitzand also to police countries that can get nuclear arms in the middle eastSep 16 08:38
DaemonFCsounds like you're parroting their hysteria to meSep 16 08:38
fewaDaemonFC, screw offSep 16 08:38
schestowitzDaemonFC: haha.Sep 16 08:38
schestowitzWhere?Sep 16 08:38
DaemonFChold on a secSep 16 08:38
fewaHe could set Detroit up to reemployee all those highly skilled workers making Wind turbinesSep 16 08:38
fewagetting this country out of its oil dependancySep 16 08:38
DaemonFC[03:19] <schestowitz> They plan on recruiting for "civil service"Sep 16 08:39
DaemonFC[03:19] <schestowitz> Like unarmed police to 'control things'Sep 16 08:39
schestowitzWhat about wuartedly goals, fewaSep 16 08:39
schestowitzThe corps don't like long-term investementsSep 16 08:39
DaemonFCschestowitz: Ann Coulter much?Sep 16 08:39
fewaHe could actually push through health care reformSep 16 08:39
fewathe people wantSep 16 08:39
schestowitzThey are run by people in their 60s to whom there is not much of a future anywaySep 16 08:39
fewa*the people want itSep 16 08:39
schestowitzDaemonFC: I don't watch him [sicSep 16 08:39
fewaand if it is not passed it the cost will destroy this countrySep 16 08:39
fewaits a pay or die systemSep 16 08:40
DaemonFCschestowitz: This isn't the brown shirtsSep 16 08:40
DaemonFCObama is not HitlerSep 16 08:40
fewaDaemonFC, what is your beef?Sep 16 08:40
DaemonFCand you need to stop watching the news in CoulterVisionSep 16 08:40
schestowitzDaemonFC: if you're gonna troll, piss offSep 16 08:40
fewaDaemonFC, you keep putting words in his mouth that he did not say and dropping word bombsSep 16 08:40
DaemonFCfewa: It sounds like the Republican hysteria to meSep 16 08:41
DaemonFCthis is exactly the kind of stuff Ann Coulter claimsSep 16 08:41
DaemonFCNazi brown shirts across AmericaSep 16 08:41
fewaDaemonFC, 16 08:41
fewastop spreading junkSep 16 08:41
schestowitzIt's truly a shame that one needs to care so much about US politics even outside the STates. That's where a lot of influence (and abuse) routinely comes fromSep 16 08:42
schestowitzDid you hear about France?Sep 16 08:42
fewawhat happened there?Sep 16 08:42
schestowitz 16 08:43
schestowitzHollywood MAFIAA takes over French InternetSep 16 08:43
fewaschestowitz, like the attack on the NHS?Sep 16 08:43
schestowitzAnd now they want the UK also.. Japan and so on.Sep 16 08:43
schestowitzThey don't get enough of their own InternetSep 16 08:43
DaemonFCfewa: It's well known that Fox News spends an inordinate amount of time trying to fuel crackpot conspiracy theoriesSep 16 08:43
schestowitzThey expand digitallySep 16 08:43
DaemonFCand employs talking heads to do itSep 16 08:43
schestowitzI look forward to seeing them passing ACTA in a rush after making it visible for 2 daysSep 16 08:44
fewaDaemonFC, you want nothing but grimeSep 16 08:44
DaemonFCthe world is a pretty nasty place, fewaSep 16 08:44
DaemonFCit's always some kind of idiot/asshole/troublemakerSep 16 08:44
fewaschestowitz, 16 08:44
trmancopftSep 16 08:45
trmancoso much for hotmail's uptime...Sep 16 08:45
fewatrmanco, "Microsoft technology"Sep 16 08:46
schestowitzPatch Tuesday was a week agoSep 16 08:46
schestowitzMaybe a computer threw a hissySep 16 08:46
DaemonFCthe crazier and further to the political far right you are, the more time you get on Fox NewsSep 16 08:46
fewasort of unrelated chomsky interview "Absolutely not -- those are some of the most grotesque propaganda lies of the current period -- the US supported the invasion fully -- it provided decisive support for it, military, diplomatic and so on, and the British joined it, and it started to peak in 1978, and the massacres escalated in 1999, right before the referendum, the US continued to sSep 16 08:46
fewaupport it fully, Britain continued to support it fully, and they were much worse than anything reported in Kosovo at the same period. And the US continued to support it, even at the height of the massacres in Dili in late August, 1999 -- finally, Clinton came under such intense domestic pressure -- much from the right wing and the Catholic Church, that he just told the Indonesians quietly, "okay, the game is over" and they went home -- instantly. ThSep 16 08:46
fewaat shows what could have been done for the past 25 years. And Britain lagged -- it kept supplying Indonesia with military hardware, even after the UN peacekeeping force went. I mean, these are the most outrageous claims."Sep 16 08:46
schestowitzDidn't some Microsoft DC catch a virus recently?Sep 16 08:46
DaemonFCThat's why it's about half Coulter and have Michelle BachmannSep 16 08:46
fewaIt's the same moral issue that arises all the time -- even with the trials. I mean yes, Israel is doing terrible things. Why? Because the US is supporting it -- its like Indonesia and East Timor -- as soon as Clinton told the Indonesians that its over -- they didn't have bomb or boycott -- they just told them its over,. They withdrew instantly. If the US stopped providing decisive military, economic, ideological support, Israeli couldn't do what it'Sep 16 08:47
fewas doing. Well why doesn't anyone talk about boycotting the US? Because it's too powerful.Sep 16 08:47
trmancoit's backSep 16 08:47
DaemonFC*halfSep 16 08:47
trmancobblSep 16 08:47
fewaDaemonFC, 16 08:47
DaemonFCfewa: If there was any kind of "morality" in the world, Islam, Christianity, and Judaism would cease to existSep 16 08:47
DaemonFCas well as a few othersSep 16 08:48
DaemonFCthe fact that they together control more than 2/3rds of the world population shows what a terrible place this isSep 16 08:48
fewaDaemonFC, control?Sep 16 08:48
DaemonFCthat's all they areSep 16 08:48
DaemonFCcontrolSep 16 08:48
DaemonFCthat's all they doSep 16 08:48
fewaDaemonFC, who?Sep 16 08:49
DaemonFCit's like you have Islam, Christianity, and Judaism beaming bozo rays into everybody's brainsSep 16 08:49
DaemonFC24/7/365Sep 16 08:49
fewaDaemonFC, the only really organized group is the catholicsSep 16 08:49
DaemonFCdoesn't make them much more pleasantSep 16 08:50
DaemonFCbut like any large, stable system, they try not to rock the boat as much as other smaller groupsSep 16 08:51
DaemonFCthey're just your every day whiners and complainersSep 16 08:51
DaemonFCthey whine for 5 minutes and go awaySep 16 08:51
DaemonFCthen they do it again over the next thingSep 16 08:51
DaemonFCthe Catholics are organized whinersSep 16 08:51
fewaTeenager unemployeement is the highest in recorded history; since 1949Sep 16 08:52
fewa*in the USSep 16 08:52
DaemonFCthe rest of the Christians are mostly a loose confederation of dangerously unbalanced outright hate mongersSep 16 08:52
DaemonFCbut most of them are too chickenshit to do anything, personallySep 16 08:52
_goblinDaemonFC: Does it matter? You either believe or not...Obviously you have your own views on religion...just like everyone else is entitled to.Sep 16 08:53
_goblinwho's to say who is correct?Sep 16 08:53
DaemonFCout of all the deranged Christian sects in the US, I'd say only about 1-3% of them pose real danger to society at large in the form of violenceSep 16 08:53
_goblinthats what you say.Sep 16 08:54
DaemonFCthe rest of them work to incite the problemSep 16 08:54
_goblinand you are not going to change anything by typing in BNSep 16 08:54
DaemonFCvery few of them have the stomach to carry things outSep 16 08:54
_goblinyou are merely insulting religion on a basis of your own distorted views.Sep 16 08:54
DaemonFCevery once in a while you hear about a Christian terrorist shooting up a gay bar or bombing a women's clinicSep 16 08:55
_goblinevil people.....they are in every section of society....Sep 16 08:55
DaemonFCbut it takes thousands to fan the flames for every one crazy that actually carries things outSep 16 08:55
DaemonFCnot very efficientSep 16 08:55
DaemonFCthe Muslims are much more efficient at convincing their followers to kill people they hateSep 16 08:55
_goblinwhere in their religious text does it condone or approve this>Sep 16 08:56
_goblin?Sep 16 08:56
_goblinI'd love to know....Sep 16 08:56
DaemonFCit's like a Code RedSep 16 08:56
fewa"You are the change you wish to see in the world"Sep 16 08:56
DaemonFCnobody actually ordered itSep 16 08:56
DaemonFCbut it happens anyway :)Sep 16 08:56
_goblinprobably the same place the IRA got their justification...Sep 16 08:56
fewa --  Mahatma GandhiSep 16 08:56
_goblinwhere was the justification for the invasion of Afghanistan?Sep 16 08:57
DaemonFCfewa: The Christians don't tell people to murder, they just incite enough hate that eventually one of their followers decides to do it on their ownSep 16 08:57
DaemonFCthat way it gives the church plausible deniabilitySep 16 08:57
DaemonFCfewa: 16 08:58
DaemonFC"Plausible deniability refers to the denial of blame in loose and informal chains of command where upper rungs quarantine the blame to the lower rungs. In the case that illegal or otherwise disreputable and unpopular activities become public, high-ranking officials may deny any awareness of such act or any connection to the agents used to carry out such act."Sep 16 08:58
DaemonFCChristian churchesSep 16 08:58
_goblinI think I've read enough.....ignore switched on.Sep 16 08:59
_goblingreat news about ITV dumping silverlight.Sep 16 08:59
fewablightSep 16 08:59
_goblinI've been waiting for that to happen...Sep 16 08:59
_goblinsay what you will about the BBC its iplayer service is very good.Sep 16 09:00
DaemonFCfewa: The fact that churches in the United States have to resort to inciting the crime and falling back to plausible deniability tells you that they don't run the show hereSep 16 09:00
DaemonFCin Iran, they jsut openly murder people that break Islamic lawSep 16 09:00
*fewa ignoring alsoSep 16 09:00
_goblinlets hope that ITV emulates it...Sep 16 09:00
_goblinIve been looking at EyeOS....quite a nice little cloud.....Sep 16 09:02
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] RT @nickballard RT: @channeldvorak: Obama supports extending Patriot Act 16 09:03
schestowitz_goblin: the Microsoft lackey at the MSBBC (Erik Huggers) said they'd 'open' the iPlayer platformSep 16 09:04
schestowitzAlso: 16 09:04
schestowitzMicrosoft is nervous about Linux....Sep 16 09:04
schestowitzThey lost their lockinSep 16 09:04
_goblinId say its petrified!Sep 16 09:04
schestowitzThere's a new talking point to watch out forSep 16 09:04
schestowitzMicrosoft pretends all in success is hinged on VIsta 7Sep 16 09:05
schestowitzANd it pressures people to abandon XP (but only in one route)Sep 16 09:05
_goblinMonty still hasn't printed my responses.....Sep 16 09:05
schestowitzThey try to force a push to Vista7Sep 16 09:05
schestowitzAnd they tell shareholders it will make a turnaroundSep 16 09:05
DaemonFCschestowitz: XP is gonna be around for a whileSep 16 09:05
schestowitzThey bully critics of Vista 7Sep 16 09:05
schestowitzI saw it yesterday... last time I saw itSep 16 09:05
DaemonFCthat's not a good thing for MSSep 16 09:05
_goblinI think people will see that and remember the same was tried with Vista.Sep 16 09:05
schestowitzThey don't commit a crimeSep 16 09:05
schestowitzIt's like the Radian6 BSSep 16 09:06
schestowitzThey stalk peopleSep 16 09:06
schestowitzANd they 'punish' criticsSep 16 09:06
DaemonFCthey fucked up royally by making sure almost everyone needed a new system to run VistaSep 16 09:06
_goblinthey'd be in for a shock if they tried to punish me!Sep 16 09:06
DaemonFCa lot of companies panicked and hoarded XPSep 16 09:06
schestowitz_goblin: they tried meSep 16 09:06
schestowitzI reported them to the FTCSep 16 09:06
schestowitzAnd got a replySep 16 09:06
DaemonFCmeaning their ten year upgrade cycle takes them to around 2016 before Microsoft can even hope to sell anything elseSep 16 09:06
_goblinI have an advantage (I believe) over respect of what I am....Sep 16 09:07
DaemonFCit's enough so that Microsoft can't really grow their bottom lineSep 16 09:07
DaemonFCthey'll do a lot of gimmicks to get "sales" up, but they'll average less profit on every sale to do itSep 16 09:07
schestowitz Atheros Intros New Combo Chip 16 09:08
_goblinI'll have to send you an email prior to meeting you for a drink!Sep 16 09:08
DaemonFCthey've gotten themselves into a race to the bottomSep 16 09:08
schestowitzThey'll lie about "Sales"Sep 16 09:08
schestowitzLike they did VistaSep 16 09:08
schestowitzIt's a company of lies and lawsuitsSep 16 09:08
schestowitzAnd we'll all call it ouSep 16 09:08
DaemonFCschestowitz: One interesting thing is downgrade rights from Windows 7 to XPSep 16 09:08
schestowitz*outSep 16 09:08
DaemonFCa lot of businesses were buying "Vista" licenses and using it to downgrade to XPSep 16 09:08
schestowitzThey count as VIsta 7 salesSep 16 09:09
schestowitzSame trick done with VistaSep 16 09:09
DaemonFCMS still counted those as Vista salesSep 16 09:09
schestowitzThis counts as TWO Vista salesSep 16 09:09
fewaThey attack and distort wikipediaSep 16 09:09
fewacensor dissentSep 16 09:09
_goblinI always wondered why MS says Vista was so popular yet I know more Linux users than I do Vista ones.Sep 16 09:09
fewapromulgate Microsoft truthsSep 16 09:09
schestowitzWTF? 16 09:09
_goblinchecking the link!Sep 16 09:10
DaemonFCI've seen a lot of people run screaming back to XPSep 16 09:10
fewa"truths"Sep 16 09:10
DaemonFCit's no longer "sold", but it's easily downloaded off of bittorrentSep 16 09:10
DaemonFCthat's where it's coming fromSep 16 09:10
fewaa tiny sentence to LinuxSep 16 09:11
DaemonFCreally if the choice is 8 year old Windows or modern Linux, where is the argument for Windows?Sep 16 09:11
fewalawl, installing Windows from CD requires hours of installing driversSep 16 09:11
DaemonFCI have no idea why they go back to XP, maybe it's habitSep 16 09:11
DaemonFCXP turns 8 years old next monthSep 16 09:12
schestowitz"Microsoft abandons 'squirting'" 16 09:12
_goblinQuote "Although there is no reformat option in Linux, both Windows XP and Vista are capable of reformatting the hard disk during installation."Sep 16 09:12
DaemonFCXP is older than the cars most people driveSep 16 09:12
_gobliner theres a reformat option in most mainstream Linux distro's.Sep 16 09:12
schestowitzIsn't "Deleting Linux" a top result in 16 09:13
_goblininfact I can't think of one install procedure that doesn't allow you to reformation the entire harddisk for use with it.Sep 16 09:13
fewaschestowitz, microsoft wants to pretend Linux does not existSep 16 09:13
fewathey conflate it with "UNIX"Sep 16 09:14
_goblinreally got to make another Chromium build......I've been left behind a little....Sep 16 09:15
fewaWindows is also incapable of no whiping your MBRSep 16 09:15
DaemonFCin place upgrades don't do thatSep 16 09:15
_goblinI'm still running I believe its had a few upgrades since then....Sep 16 09:16
DaemonFCeverything else doesSep 16 09:16
fewaim running 16 09:18
fewathey sure inflated the major version number fastSep 16 09:18
_goblinyep, Im behind then....Sep 16 09:18
fewaguess they had to get above Firefox in a spiffySep 16 09:18
_goblinmind you Ive had no issues with it to really note.Sep 16 09:18
fewapretty soon it will be version 9Sep 16 09:18
DaemonFCI'm using Konqueror more and moreSep 16 09:20
schestowitzfewa: they are past the point of denying Linux' existenceSep 16 09:28
schestowitzSee Best Bribe training for detailsSep 16 09:28
fewashitSep 16 09:29
fewaThere is a guy on Yahoo answers that works like thatSep 16 09:29
fewaand says he was a best buy employeeSep 16 09:29
fewameanwhile target dumps its Linux netbooksSep 16 09:30
fewaand goes Windows-onlySep 16 09:30
schestowitzWhose chagrin?Sep 16 09:30
schestowitzThe US regulation is too weakSep 16 09:30
fewaI was in Target and asked about netbooksSep 16 09:30
fewaand the employee said that he was too familier with XP and couldnt get use to LinuxSep 16 09:31
fewaand recommended that I wait and buy a XP oneSep 16 09:31
fewa(could well be sincere)Sep 16 09:31
cubezzzwell it's the customer's opinion that counts :)Sep 16 09:35
cubezzzif the customer wants linux, they get linuxSep 16 09:35
fewanot when the maket fails to provide choiceSep 16 09:37
fewaFor example look at transportationSep 16 09:38
fewaI can choose which brand and model of car to buySep 16 09:38
fewabuy I can't choose between train and carSep 16 09:38
fewaits one of those fundamental failures of market systemsSep 16 09:38
fewaBut yeah, if people demand Linux, they will get itSep 16 09:39
fewa"The Vole tells Best Buy staff to claim that World of Warcraft is incompatible with Linux, despite the fact that it works pretty well if you use WINE"Sep 16 09:41
fewaeven the article get its wrong about WINE thoughSep 16 09:41
fewawith play on linux installing Windows applications on Linux is as easy as installing them on WindowsSep 16 09:42
fewa 16 09:42
fewaWoW even gets better framerates in LinuxSep 16 09:42
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fewa o whoops I found that article it wasnt posted 16 09:44
zeropathhi all. Got a 'special' question ? Does anybody have pointers how a firm can end it's MS Enterprise Agreement prematurely ?Sep 16 09:45
ThistleWebzeropath: contact their lawyersSep 16 09:46
ThistleWebpreferably contract lawyersSep 16 09:47
zeropathhm, guessed as much. There's a 'liberate' movement at IBM, but I don't think that would be a solution.Sep 16 09:48
ThistleWebany agreement is breakable, the question is how bad the penalty will be for doing itSep 16 09:48
ThistleWebwhat you dont want to do is just decide it does not apply, MS will hammer you in court for thatSep 16 09:48
zeropathSince I ask this question on behalf of a friend and I can't see the actual contracts it is also a bit difficult for me.Sep 16 09:48
ThistleWebMS do like NDAsSep 16 09:49
ThistleWebthey're not the only ones, but they do like themSep 16 09:49
zeropathIn this case, I believe my friend is having problems with MS Support, but I'll try to find a good contract lawyer for his firm.Sep 16 09:50
ThistleWebany specialist lawyer will cost moneySep 16 09:50
fewaNDAs can be violations of free speechSep 16 09:50
ThistleWebbut the advice will probs save money by avoiding mistakes down the lineSep 16 09:50
ThistleWebif both parties agree to it, and NDA is fine, not that we'd sign oneSep 16 09:51
zeropathCan someone make you sign an NDA about open source projects like e.g. unison. Just wondering, because I find myself under such an NDA.Sep 16 09:52
ThistleWebI saw something recently to the effect that NDA's may not be legally enforcableSep 16 09:52
ThistleWebnobody can make you sign an NDASep 16 09:52
ThistleWebwhat they can do is say they wont deal with you without oneSep 16 09:52
zeropathEither that or no job.Sep 16 09:52
fewaI don't think they should beSep 16 09:52
fewaloss of transparancy cant benifit anyone but concentrated existing influencesSep 16 09:53
ThistleWebthen the choice is still yours, if you want the job, you accept the conditionsSep 16 09:53
fewathey can fire youSep 16 09:53
ThistleWebif they want you badly enough, you can set the termsSep 16 09:53
ThistleWebbut most peeps are not in that positionSep 16 09:53
fewabut I don't think they can apply a prior restraint on free speechSep 16 09:53
zeropathAsked my question the wrong way: how can you ask for an NDA on a GPL covered and publicly available piece of open source softwareSep 16 09:54
ThistleWebevery country is different too in which laws apply, and how they applySep 16 09:54
zeropathwhich is literally the caseSep 16 09:54
fewaevery jurisdictionSep 16 09:54
fewayet US companies like to think US law applies everywhere....Sep 16 09:55
fewasending all sorts of DMCA takedown notices to foreign sitesSep 16 09:55
ThistleWebwhy would you want an NDA on something the public can get free from a website??Sep 16 09:55
ThistleWebthat seems bizarre to me, unless I'm not understanding itSep 16 09:56
zeropathexactly my point, so after two months of seeing the GPL being violated I quit. I'd had enough of these guysSep 16 09:56
ThistleWebNDA's tend to be for proprietary secretsSep 16 09:56
zeropathcashing in on open sourceSep 16 09:56
*_goblin has quit ("Ex-Chat")Sep 16 09:56
ThistleWebso tip the SFLC offSep 16 09:56
zeropathSFLC ?Sep 16 09:56
ThistleWebsoftware freedom law centreSep 16 09:57
ThistleWebthey are lawyers working on behalf of FOSSSep 16 09:57
ThistleWeband FOSS projectsSep 16 09:57
zeropathcoming back to my friends problem, the Enterprise Agreement. what happens if he doesn't pay ?Sep 16 09:57
ThistleWebthey deal with GPL compliance issuesSep 16 09:57
fewathey sue for breech of contractSep 16 09:57
ThistleWebyep, I sense a lawsuit in his future if he follows that pathSep 16 09:58
fewageeze, who would want to rent softwareSep 16 09:58
fewait just seems so idioticSep 16 09:58
zeropathwhatever he does he'll have to paySep 16 09:58
fewayou sign up for a timbbomb on your entire operationSep 16 09:58
zeropathhe didn't know better at the timeSep 16 09:58
fewazeropath, not neccicarilySep 16 09:59
ThistleWebit may be cheaper to buy out the contractSep 16 09:59
ThistleWebon the other hand it may be cheaper to just let it expire and not renew itSep 16 09:59
zeropathhe's in his first of three yearsSep 16 09:59
ThistleWebthe safest answer would be "none of us are lawyers, none of the advice we give is legal advice"Sep 16 10:00
ThistleWebI'd suggest that he lets a lawyer look over it, and get professional adviceSep 16 10:00
fewaThats one of the biggest restraints on free speechSep 16 10:00
zeropathI see, I'll get him to contact a good lawyerSep 16 10:00
fewathat you cant talk about law without risk of being sued for preactice of lawSep 16 10:00
ThistleWebcontact the SFLC tooSep 16 10:01
fewawell, not biggestSep 16 10:01
ThistleWeblet them know about the GPL issuesSep 16 10:01
ThistleWebsometimes peeps dont know theyre not complyingSep 16 10:01
ThistleWebor how to complySep 16 10:01
ThistleWebsometimes they think it's not enforcableSep 16 10:01
ThistleWebas soon as they get contacted by a lawyer with a potential lawsuit to face, and the offer of help in complying it can wake them upSep 16 10:02
zeropaththanks for the information. see you all - have to go now.Sep 16 10:02
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schestowitzMaster Gene That Switches On Disease-fighting Cells Identified By Scientists 16 10:09
schestowitzAnother poor victim of Microsoft's AstroTurf for Vista 7 (he didn't even try it for self): Ubuntu Linux - 5 things to stem the tide of Windows 7. < >Sep 16 10:09
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[thistleweb] Just installed Mint 7 XFCE, still tweaking it.Sep 16 10:13
fewaschestowitz, lawlSep 16 10:20
fewathat guy is drinking the cool aidSep 16 10:20
schestowitzYeah.Sep 16 10:21
schestowitzIt annoys meSep 16 10:21
schestowitzThey don't try itSep 16 10:21
schestowitzThey DON'T understand that agencies do PRSep 16 10:21
schestowitzMicrosoft pays the likes of W-E like $200,000,000 for a simple jobSep 16 10:21
schestowitzScour the Web, attack critics, approach journos for sale, bribe with laptops, etcSep 16 10:21
schestowitzIT WAS THE SAME WITH VISTASep 16 10:21
schestowitzI know what friends of mine who tried VIsta 7 saySep 16 10:21
schestowitzIf it installed at all !!Sep 16 10:22
schestowitzParty line: "VIsta 7 will KILL KILL KILL Linux"Sep 16 10:22
schestowitz"Oh Lordy!! Will poor Linux survive?"Sep 16 10:22
schestowitzAnother one does the whole "better Snot[sic] Leopard than Leopard"Sep 16 10:22
schestowitzI'm bloody tried of PRSep 16 10:22
schestowitzThey should be sent to an island or somehtingSep 16 10:23
MinceRwhy pollute an island with them?Sep 16 10:23
fewathe real question is "Does Vista 7 have any features that users care about?"Sep 16 10:23
schestowitzPR in action:Sep 16 10:23
schestowitz 16 10:23
schestowitz 16 10:23
schestowitzKILLING PEOPLESep 16 10:23
schestowitzYes, PR kills!Sep 16 10:23
schestowitz 16 10:24
schestowitz 16 10:24
fewaor even more pertinent is "Does Vista 7 have more anti-features than prevent people from getting anything done?"Sep 16 10:24
schestowitzKill kill... it pays the bill for PR peopleSep 16 10:24
*DaemonFC has quit (Connection timed out)Sep 16 10:24
schestowitzfewa: it runs XPSep 16 10:24
schestowitzI mean, if you have lots of RAMSep 16 10:24
fewaexactlySep 16 10:24
fewathats is the real news storySep 16 10:24
schestowitzSo it's like Vista without the compat issue, ASSUMING YOU CAN RUN BOTH IN RAMSep 16 10:24
schestowitzAND EVEN THEN...Sep 16 10:25
schestowitzNo 3d accelSep 16 10:25
fewa"Vista 7 provides less functionality and no useful features over Windows XP"Sep 16 10:25
schestowitzNot on many chipsetsSep 16 10:25
schestowitzfewa: yes, the real storySep 16 10:25
schestowitzGood luck paying off with hundreds of millions to put it in newspapersSep 16 10:25
fewaoccasionally you see itSep 16 10:25
fewabusiness that get itSep 16 10:25
schestowitzThe journalists themselves are cynical about the pressSep 16 10:25
fewago WTF MicrosoftSep 16 10:26
fewaeven MS's good friend Intel said that of MS's business strategySep 16 10:26
schestowitzWhen you see it the writers/CIOs are abusedSep 16 10:26
schestowitzOutset, ridiculed, trolled in comments, approached by complaints to editordsSep 16 10:26
fewaInsurance Industry Profit Protection and Enhancement ActSep 16 10:26
fewaexactlySep 16 10:26
fewawithout a public option there is no cost retainmentSep 16 10:27
fewaquit PR cause he realized human misery was funding his lifestyleSep 16 10:27
fewa 16 10:28
ThistleWebI gotta say, Mint 7 XFCE is gorgeousSep 16 10:31
fewaschestowitz, wow that is a great testimonySep 16 10:36
fewalots of stuff I had no idea aboutSep 16 10:36
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-BNc/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] How to Set #Windows Users Free with #GNU #Linux 16 10:39
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] How #Microsoft et al Prevent #GNU #Linux Users from Watching TV 16 10:41
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] #Research: #Server Virtualisation with #GNU #Linux Better Than with #Windows 16 10:44
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[scientes] RT @schestowitz: Clear the webs of confusion for Windows to Linux refugeesSep 16 10:45
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] #Cisco Uses #Linux in #Routers for Business 16 10:47
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] #LinuxCon is Coming Soon, #Streaming Available 16 10:52
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] #Linux #FileSystem Throughput #Benchmarks 16 10:55
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] Updated Chart of Distribution of Commits to #Linux 16 10:57
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] #GNOME Desktop Environment Starts Quarterly Reports 16 11:03
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] More of #KDE Family Goes #GPLv3 , #KOffice 2.1 Now at Beta 2 16 11:05
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] #Archos Looks Stunning with New #Linux Platform 16 11:11
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] More #EyeCandy Arriving at Ubuntu #GNU #Linux http://b ...Sep 16 11:13
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] More #Linux Stacks Address Needs in #Medicine 16 11:15
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] #Ruby Development Comes to #Linux Phones 16 11:17
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] #MySpace ( #Murdochism ) Dabbles in #FreeSoftware 16 11:20
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] #Google Chrome 3.0 is Out ( #Linux Version Out Any Moment) 16 11:21
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] #FSF / #GNU Announces 2009 #FreeSoftware Awards 16 11:23
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] #GPL Declares Free #SoftwareWinner in #Licensing 16 11:24
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] #WalterBender Backs #FSF ? 16 11:24
*ziggyfish has quit ("Leaving.")Sep 16 11:28
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] #LegalisedBribery ( #Lobbying ) Attempts to Shoot Down #Federal #Regulator 16 11:29
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] #Health 'Care' #AstroTurf Steals the Vote http://pi ...Sep 16 11:29
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] Selling the #Diebold #ProprietaryFailure Leads to #Antitrust 16 11:30
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] #Government of #India Can Save Billions by Moving to #FreeSoftware -- Claim 16 11:31
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] The #UK is Trying to Quietly #DRM #Television 16 11:36
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] #FCC Enables Ballot Stuffers 16 11:37
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] #MAFIAA Members Attack #Musicians Who 'Dare' Speak Against #IntellectualMonopolies Enablers 16 11:39
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] #Hollywood invades #France 16 11:39
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] The People Who Really Run the US Want to Toughen #IntellectualMonopolies 16 11:41
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[zoobab] Patent Trolls in the 21st Century, or ProxyTrolls, the patent mafia or do the dirt job by others: 16 11:43
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] #Google 's #Patry Attacks Attacks Existing #Copyright #Law in New #Book 16 11:45
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[zoobab] Tiemann about swpats: "it is more urgent than ever to mount a serious campaign to disarm them all, before it is too late" 16 11:46
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] Why #IntellectualMonopolies Must be Forbidden for Publicly Funded Work 16 11:46
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] #Japan 's #MAFIAA Wants #DRM in Phones, #Canada Wants to #Tax All Music Player 16 11:48
fewaschestowitz, when you say #Japan 's #MAFIAA I think you are talking about the actually mafia there :PSep 16 11:49
MinceRthat would be "mafia", not "MAFIAA"Sep 16 11:52
fewaI know...Sep 16 11:53
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] #Microsoft Starts #Fudging Its #Financial Results to Hide Massive Drops /5208-12558-0.html?fo ...Sep 16 11:54
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] #Vista7 Left Dead on Arrival as Even #Hardware 'Feature' Fails 16 11:56
schestowitzOK doneSep 16 11:56
schestowitzWhere were we, fewa/ :-)Sep 16 11:56
schestowitz[10:36] <fewa> schestowitz, wow that is a great testimonySep 16 11:57
schestowitzYes, she came from the insideSep 16 11:57
schestowitzThere are similar stories like thatSep 16 11:57
schestowitzReformed arsehole (or their collaborators)Sep 16 11:57
schestowitzThere are also people who worked for Microsoft and now work against the BeastSep 16 11:57
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[davidgerard] @schestowitz your second short URL is broken - try 16 11:58
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[scientes] Judge forces jury to sign a document that they will not research the case online 16 11:58
fewaI knew of that guySep 16 11:58
fewawatched a interview on democracynow and a article on prwatchSep 16 11:58
fewabut that testimony was ripe will good stuffSep 16 11:58
fewaIsn't the jury suppose to be an independant body?Sep 16 11:59
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] @davidgerard try 16 12:00
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] @davidgerard second link: 16 12:01
schestowitzfewa: depends on the caseSep 16 12:18
ThistleWeba jury is only supposed to decide on what they hear in courtSep 16 12:25
*Omar87 has quit (Read error: 131 (Connection reset by peer))Sep 16 12:25
*ThistleWeb has quit ("Ex-Chat")Sep 16 12:26
trmanco[PATCH v4 00/15] Build Git with MSVCSep 16 12:27
trmancoLOLSep 16 12:27
*Omar87 ( has joined #boycottnovellSep 16 12:27
trmancogit is going native to win32Sep 16 12:27
oiaohmKinda has to.Sep 16 12:28
oiaohmIt one thing that has been limiting its take up by some projects.Sep 16 12:28
fewaWindows is one thing that is limiting the uptake of quality softwareSep 16 12:31
trmancoboth trueSep 16 12:31
trmancogit works fine in cygwinSep 16 12:32
PetoKrausoh by the way... http://www.geeksonbikes.netSep 16 12:34
trmanco:DSep 16 12:35
*ziggyfish ( has joined #boycottnovellSep 16 12:36
PetoKrausi've just got a nice PCSep 16 12:36
MinceRwindows is the biggest obstacle in the way of advancement in ITSep 16 12:36
PetoKrausit's HP, an old oneSep 16 12:36
PetoKraussome laptop, business class, Pentium MSep 16 12:37
PetoKrauswell, installed arch linux, LXDESep 16 12:37
PetoKrausand it's smashin'Sep 16 12:37
oiaohmWe will most likely remember the time of Windows as a IT dark ages.Sep 16 12:37
PetoKrauswellSep 16 12:37
PetoKrausthat's why I'm trying to get some money off itSep 16 12:37
PetoKraus;)Sep 16 12:37
fewaYour huddled masses yearning to breathe freeSep 16 12:39
fewaGive me your tired, your poor,Sep 16 12:39
fewaYour huddled masses yearning to breathe free,Sep 16 12:39
fewaThe wretched refuse of your teeming shore.Sep 16 12:39
oiaohmKDE is also coming to Windows.Sep 16 12:39
fewaSend these, the homeless, tempest-tost to me,Sep 16 12:39
fewaI lift my lamp beside the golden door!"Sep 16 12:39
oiaohmI know that windows 7 is forcing some people I know to Linux.Sep 16 12:40
oiaohmIt is getting simpler to find Linux users.Sep 16 12:40
PetoKrausfewa, quoth the raven - nevermore!Sep 16 12:40
fewaPetoKraus, :PSep 16 12:40
PetoKrausanywaySep 16 12:41
PetoKraustime to shoot to the gym, so i'm not going to be a wimp ;)Sep 16 12:41
PetoKrausoh what i wanted to saySep 16 12:43
PetoKrausisSep 16 12:43
PetoKrausKMS is awesomeSep 16 12:43
fewaKMS?Sep 16 12:43
PetoKrauskernel modesettingSep 16 12:43
oiaohmI am looking forward to the higher uptake of policykit as wellSep 16 12:43
PetoKrausi dunnoSep 16 12:43
PetoKrausi see nothing but trouble with itSep 16 12:43
oiaohmWe have trouble either way.Sep 16 12:45
oiaohmUsers not liking secuirty getting in way.Sep 16 12:45
oiaohmPolicykit can solve thatSep 16 12:45
oiaohmOf course there is a risk it can make it too friendly to do things wrong.Sep 16 12:46
fewaI think PolicyKit is goodSep 16 12:47
fewainitially it had a stupid bug however where even if you were root you would get permission denied stuffSep 16 12:47
oiaohmIdea of Policykit is one day root user will never be required.Sep 16 12:48
fewabut it should still existSep 16 12:49
fewaand be accessableSep 16 12:49
oiaohmNot really thinking it don't really exist now.Sep 16 12:49
fewaoiaohm, when processes are elevated, they run as rootSep 16 12:49
oiaohmLinux kernel can be built without an operational root.Sep 16 12:49
fewayou can streamline stuff so that less elevation is neededSep 16 12:50
fewathat is goodSep 16 12:50
fewabut a elevated level is always neededSep 16 12:50
oiaohmAll the root user is the following user with id 0 and a set of extra capiblitity flags that could be granted to all users.Sep 16 12:50
fewaotherwise you cant control the machine, it controls youSep 16 12:50
oiaohmBasically root does not exist.Sep 16 12:50
fewaroot=all capabilitiesSep 16 12:50
oiaohmYou can lie to applications that they are id 0.Sep 16 12:50
fewathats how people think of itSep 16 12:50
fewaI understand the realities are more complicatedSep 16 12:51
fewabut there needs to be a mode where all is allowedSep 16 12:51
oiaohmall capabilities could be granted to any user or any process without the existance of a root login.Sep 16 12:51
fewahowever it should be used as little as possibleSep 16 12:51
fewaoiaohm, that that user becomes rootSep 16 12:51
fewaroot could be defined as the way of setting those capabilitiesSep 16 12:51
oiaohmNot really.Sep 16 12:51
fewaessentiallySep 16 12:51
oiaohmIt could be assigned to applications user is using.Sep 16 12:51
fewasemanticsSep 16 12:52
oiaohmso its not complete.Sep 16 12:52
fewathe user is the applicationSep 16 12:52
fewathere is no way to tell them apartSep 16 12:52
oiaohmWhen it comes to threat having applications auth slows down threats.Sep 16 12:52
fewabash is both a user interface and a scripting languageSep 16 12:52
fewaetcSep 16 12:52
fewaIm not disagreeing with youSep 16 12:53
oiaohmCompared to auth users.Sep 16 12:53
fewacarefully grained security is usefulSep 16 12:53
fewaonly giving those capabilities that are neededSep 16 12:53
oiaohmThere is no particular need for root user it too course.Sep 16 12:53
fewavery usefulSep 16 12:53
fewafine grain control over permissionsSep 16 12:53
fewauseful againSep 16 12:53
fewabut there is _allways_ a status were someone have unlimited capabilitiesSep 16 12:53
fewaand that should not be obscuredSep 16 12:53
fewaand fakesSep 16 12:53
fewalike it is on other systemsSep 16 12:54
fewalike the lie of Vista 7 UACSep 16 12:54
oiaohmAs long as a normal user can lift applications on need or allow application to use something like policykit for high access.  There is no limitations.Sep 16 12:54
oiaohmPolicykit is far tidyer than UAC.Sep 16 12:54
fewaYes it isSep 16 12:54
fewaits goodSep 16 12:54
fewaim not arguing against thatSep 16 12:54
oiaohmRoot user go by by.Sep 16 12:54
oiaohmReplaced by finer controls and policy kit.Sep 16 12:54
fewaIm just making clear that a root user with unlimited permissions is always neccicary and should not be obscuredSep 16 12:55
oiaohmIts not really required.Sep 16 12:55
fewayes it itSep 16 12:55
fewawhat if you want to change the system?Sep 16 12:55
fewaif you let every user change the system then it is not secureSep 16 12:55
oiaohmApplications able to get root equal powers yes.Sep 16 12:56
fewaso you have to give that to only a few usersSep 16 12:56
fewaand those users are rootSep 16 12:56
oiaohma root user no.Sep 16 12:56
fewaoiaohm, you don't get itSep 16 12:56
fewaeverything in a computer is a APISep 16 12:56
oiaohmThere is only a need for a root user if applications cannot get powers high enough.Sep 16 12:56
fewathe API need to allow users to get shit doneSep 16 12:56
oiaohmAuth applications massively reduce threat area.Sep 16 12:57
fewawhile administrators should carefully control threats and limit surface area, etc, they need to be able to always get aroud artificial access controls easilySep 16 12:57
oiaohmThat is what you are missing.  When running as root user decides to look up a web page with a bad browser bad things happen.Sep 16 12:57
oiaohmIe human error.Sep 16 12:57
fewainstead of having to do a bunch of bullshit to get around themSep 16 12:57
oiaohmauth applications that kind of human error don't happen.Sep 16 12:57
fewaoiaohm, this is obviousSep 16 12:57
fewayou should never use root for something that doesn't need itSep 16 12:58
fewathat is obviousSep 16 12:58
fewabut you have to teach administrators thatSep 16 12:58
oiaohmProblem with having a root user the obvious does not get followed.Sep 16 12:58
fewanot break the API to try to enforce something which is unenforcableSep 16 12:58
fewaoiaohm, you cant regulate through open source softwareSep 16 12:58
fewaits impossibleSep 16 12:58
fewaso don't trySep 16 12:59
oiaohmIts not impossible.Sep 16 12:59
fewayou can give adviceSep 16 12:59
fewayou can set up policykit really wellSep 16 12:59
oiaohmwhat decided the secuirty of the system.Sep 16 12:59
fewahave very good seperation of powerSep 16 12:59
oiaohmThe kernel.Sep 16 12:59
fewabut there always needs to be an API where the admistratorr can get control---- applications should never expect to get it-- why would users give that trust to programs that dont need it?Sep 16 13:00
oiaohmThere are some sections still like input handling in X11 that are major headaches to control.Sep 16 13:00
fewaand badly written applications should not be writtenSep 16 13:00
fewabut _the API_ needs to allow itSep 16 13:00
fewaneeds to allow the administrator a non-bullshit way of becoming elevatedSep 16 13:00
*ziggyfish has quit ("Leaving.")Sep 16 13:00
oiaohmcapibilities were created in the first place so you did not need all powerful users.Sep 16 13:00
oiaohmTo do stuff.Sep 16 13:01
fewaotherwise people just start fighting securitySep 16 13:01
fewayou don't need to be able to log into them on most machinesSep 16 13:01
oiaohmSo since people don't need to use the accounts you don't need the accounts.Sep 16 13:01
fewaim just saying that the API should not be corruptedSep 16 13:01
fewaand it be made impossible to easily administer a system how you want toSep 16 13:01
fewaAdministrators need to be able to get to that level easySep 16 13:02
fewajust like sudo -i in ubuntuSep 16 13:02
fewabut programs included in the distribution should avoid using itSep 16 13:02
fewathe system should be designed not to need itSep 16 13:02
oiaohmWhat is the biggest problem with running as root user.Sep 16 13:02
oiaohmyour alterations don't get logged.Sep 16 13:02
oiaohmSo you make a mistake its harder to correct.Sep 16 13:03
oiaohmroot user is even harmful to administrators.Sep 16 13:03
oiaohmCurrent form of root user need to go by by.Sep 16 13:04
fewaYes, yes, yesSep 16 13:04
fewabut don't outlaw itSep 16 13:04
oiaohmReplaced by something that is safer all round.Sep 16 13:04
fewathat it counterproductiveSep 16 13:04
oiaohmWhy keep something that is counter productive that causes down time.Sep 16 13:04
fewaIt is the arrogent assumption that only kernel developers can make a secure system and are allowed to write all-priviliaged codeSep 16 13:05
fewabecause the administrators are the masterSep 16 13:05
fewa*mastersSep 16 13:05
fewanot the programmersSep 16 13:05
oiaohmYet as windows your administator is not the most powerful user either.Sep 16 13:05
oiaohmThere is a user above it you cannot log into.Sep 16 13:05
fewathe programmers make the administrators life goodSep 16 13:05
MinceRSYSTEM? :)Sep 16 13:06
oiaohmNormally.Sep 16 13:06
oiaohmSYSTEM can delete files in use.Sep 16 13:06
oiaohmNormal admin cannot.Sep 16 13:06
fewai'm saying real administrator, the person with physical and legal control over a deviceSep 16 13:06
MinceRoohSep 16 13:06
MinceRwhat happens to programs using those files?Sep 16 13:06
fewais the person that needs to always be in controlSep 16 13:06
MinceR(considering how hard windows file systems fail)Sep 16 13:06
oiaohmNot nice to say the least MinceR.Sep 16 13:06
MinceR:DSep 16 13:06
fewaand the tools created by the programmers need to empower them do get shit doneSep 16 13:06
fewa(as they are often the same people too)Sep 16 13:06
oiaohmfewa:  yes a person need to be in control.Sep 16 13:07
oiaohmBut person also need to be able to undo there human error.Sep 16 13:07
fewaand it should not be only the initial programmersSep 16 13:07
oiaohmUnless you expect all admins to be perfect some how.Sep 16 13:07
fewathe programmers need to allow the hardware administrator to easily obtain the credentials and permission he already has due to owning the computerSep 16 13:07
oiaohmLogging and tracking of alterations is also required.Sep 16 13:08
oiaohmCurrent root user is also bad when you have multi admins.Sep 16 13:08
fewaoiaohm, yes the system should make this easy, it should really help the administrator, it should make root completely unneccicary and never usedSep 16 13:08
oiaohmdue to the fact all there alterations cannot be sorted.Sep 16 13:08
fewait should not allow loggging on as root by defaultSep 16 13:08
oiaohmRoot user should not be there at all in my mind.Sep 16 13:08
oiaohmAny user give right to do root level alterations should be able to.Sep 16 13:09
fewabut  the designers of the systems should _never_ pretend that they are the administrators of every system that uses their softwareSep 16 13:09
oiaohmLogged and reversable.Sep 16 13:09
fewa^^^^^^super criticalSep 16 13:09
oiaohmTo prevent human screw ups.Sep 16 13:09
fewayes that could be an optionSep 16 13:09
fewaand be easily configurable or defaultSep 16 13:09
oiaohmCurrent root user does not allow for that.  And it the way it has to go.Sep 16 13:10
fewabut controlers of the hardware and legal owners should always be able to do whatever the fuck they wantSep 16 13:10
oiaohmSo kill current root user and replace it with something better.Sep 16 13:10
fewaand the software should be made to easily allow them to do itSep 16 13:10
fewayou dont have to kill root to create better alternativesSep 16 13:10
oiaohmIf you don't kill it users will still log in as it and by pass the logging.Sep 16 13:10
fewaanyways, it seems that you are not taking the point, you have a view that the programmer administers the systemSep 16 13:11
oiaohmBasically it cannot stay in its current form.Sep 16 13:11
fewaoiaohm, what do you do again?Sep 16 13:12
oiaohmRoot user was a old hack to Unix to avoid having to create a user management system.Sep 16 13:12
fewa?Sep 16 13:12
oiaohmAs with all hacks it should disappear when the correct solutions appear.Sep 16 13:12
oiaohmYes Root user was a hack fewaSep 16 13:12
fewaroot is the defaultSep 16 13:12
oiaohmID 0 was in the old UNIX as magic override to everything.Sep 16 13:13
fewauntil you build security into a system everyone is rootSep 16 13:13
fewathats what Windows isSep 16 13:13
fewaexcept it pretends it is notSep 16 13:13
oiaohmUser secuirty sux's.Sep 16 13:13
fewaexactly, it is non-existantSep 16 13:13
fewatherefore everyone is effectively rootSep 16 13:13
oiaohmapplication secuirty is fine grained.Sep 16 13:14
oiaohmIe only approved stuff gets rights.Sep 16 13:14
fewaoiaohm, I think you need reevaluate you understanding of securitySep 16 13:14
oiaohmThe problem with vista is they tried doing both.Sep 16 13:14
oiaohmUAC giving approved and they left SYSTEM in back ground.Sep 16 13:14
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oiaohmSo coders just added services so users would not be asked questions.Sep 16 13:15
oiaohmWhile you have a all powerful user there its abuseable.Sep 16 13:15
oiaohmIe policykit and a root user can never work perfectly.Sep 16 13:16
oiaohmAt some point you have to throw away the assist of root user.Sep 16 13:16
oiaohmSo the new system will get used correctly without people bipassing it.Sep 16 13:17
oiaohmYou have the idea there is a half way point that will work fewaSep 16 13:17
fewaIn the US Department of Defense, a `trusted system or component' is defined as `one which can break the security policy'.Sep 16 13:17
fewaunderstand that and you might understand what I am sayingSep 16 13:17
fewaYou are think emperically about something which is dynamicSep 16 13:18
oiaohmTrusted system or component does not need a user to be so.Sep 16 13:18
fewait a critical and fatal flaw in what you are trying to saySep 16 13:18
oiaohmalso trusted system or component does not have to be free of secuirty.Sep 16 13:19
fewaasserting that the kernel is the only thing that can determine security--but based on what???Sep 16 13:19
fewaoiaohm, of course it is defined as `one which can break the security policy'.Sep 16 13:20
oiaohmThe kernel is a single point.  All secuirty must start from a single point.Sep 16 13:20
oiaohmThe kernel does define the core of all secuirty models made above it.Sep 16 13:20
fewaanyways you are not going to understand my point as long as I go on like this....Sep 16 13:20
fewathe computer is the slaveSep 16 13:21
fewait serves its owners, its mastersSep 16 13:21
fewadoes useful thingsSep 16 13:21
oiaohmA slave can save there master from there own stupidity.Sep 16 13:21
fewayou are making the computer the thing with the soulSep 16 13:21
fewagiving it reason where it has noneSep 16 13:21
oiaohmNo I am not.Sep 16 13:21
fewaoiaohm, but a slave cannot tell the master what to doSep 16 13:22
fewathats the problemSep 16 13:22
fewaa slave must get out of the way ever if the master wishes to bury his head in the sandSep 16 13:22
oiaohmBad logic.Sep 16 13:22
fewacause every if the slave object the master will do it anywaysSep 16 13:22
fewadon't assert power where none existsSep 16 13:23
oiaohmLets say master tells slave to dump a object.Sep 16 13:23
fewaits futile and arrogentSep 16 13:23
oiaohmslave knows master may need it.Sep 16 13:23
oiaohmSo keeps it.Sep 16 13:23
oiaohmWhen master has problem that needs it master is saved from problem by slave.Sep 16 13:23
oiaohmThis is not blocking the masters will.Sep 16 13:23
fewagetting rid of root would be like getting rid of the ability to dynamically load kernel modulesSep 16 13:23
fewaits would be idioticSep 16 13:24
oiaohmthinkign that root is only a virtual contrust any how.Sep 16 13:24
fewasure not every unpriviliaged user should be able to do itSep 16 13:24
oiaohmIt don't really exist.Sep 16 13:24
fewabut to have the machine object to such a order is just nonsenseSep 16 13:24
oiaohmits nothing more than a historic echo of a time gone past.Sep 16 13:24
fewaoiaohm, I already adressses thatSep 16 13:25
fewaroot=all powerfulSep 16 13:25
fewadoesn't matter what form it takesSep 16 13:25
fewaI'm taking about a mode that has the priviliages to do anything, all capabilitiesSep 16 13:25
oiaohmall powerful can exist without a root user.Sep 16 13:25
fewasuch a mode must exist or the computer is just trying to tell the master what to doSep 16 13:25
fewaoiaohm, well yeah, you can call it whatever you likeSep 16 13:25
oiaohmThere is no need for the root user.Sep 16 13:25
fewait doesn't have to ba analagous to a POSIX UID 0Sep 16 13:26
oiaohmThe user bit is just old junk.Sep 16 13:26
fewabut there must be a mode that is all powerfulSep 16 13:26
fewaYou seem you throw that aside as something that doesn't countSep 16 13:26
oiaohmrun program with all credentionals connected it is all powerful.Sep 16 13:26
fewanot seeing how important such a mode isSep 16 13:26
fewaoiaohm, and that is essentially rootSep 16 13:27
oiaohmYou don't see the down side of it being a user.Sep 16 13:27
fewamaybe i should call it "god" or somethingSep 16 13:27
oiaohmIe too simple to run something with all power by mistake.Sep 16 13:27
fewacomputers need a "god" modeSep 16 13:27
fewaand that god mode needs to be simple and straight forwardSep 16 13:27
oiaohmBut the god mode does not have to be a user.Sep 16 13:27
fewasecurity through obscurity does not workSep 16 13:27
fewaoiaohm, agreedSep 16 13:27
oiaohmI am refering to root user.Sep 16 13:27
fewabut it needs to be easily accessableSep 16 13:27
oiaohmas what has to go.Sep 16 13:28
fewaoiaohm, well then okSep 16 13:28
oiaohmpolicy kit or something else pick up the job.Sep 16 13:28
fewajust don't obscure the interface to become "god" or your own machinesSep 16 13:28
oiaohmReducing human error.Sep 16 13:28
oiaohmOf running stuff as all powerful by mistake.Sep 16 13:28
fewadon't try to instill security through obscurity as has been done _so_ many timesSep 16 13:28
fewathe thing that creates the Vista UAC securty theatreSep 16 13:29
oiaohmIts not security thew obsecuirty.Sep 16 13:29
oiaohmUAC was always going to be a theatre.Sep 16 13:29
fewawhere everyone is effectively god, but much good through endless loops to get thereSep 16 13:29
oiaohmThere have been other plaforms that operated with secuirty without root users.Sep 16 13:29
fewaoiaohm, I am not saying PolicyKit is thatSep 16 13:29
fewait certainly is notSep 16 13:29
oiaohmPolicykit can still provide the all powerful.Sep 16 13:30
fewaI'm just saying that it is a complament to a god mode, not a replacementSep 16 13:30
MinceRisn't PolicyKit accessed via D-Bus?Sep 16 13:30
fewaIt allows "god" to efficiently delineate permissions, that is highly usefulSep 16 13:30
oiaohmPolicykit goes threw D-Bus.Sep 16 13:30
MinceRthen it can't be a "god mode" substituteSep 16 13:30
MinceRsince you can't rely on D-Bus always being thereSep 16 13:31
fewaMinceR, exactlySep 16 13:31
fewathat sort of thing is exactly my pointSep 16 13:31
oiaohmAgain that is partly right and partly wrong.Sep 16 13:31
fewaThe architects realize itSep 16 13:31
fewabut I am just trying to make it clearSep 16 13:31
oiaohmYou are aware that long term D-Bus will most likely end up in kernel.Sep 16 13:31
fewacause if those who are not central architects forget that then they create things like UACSep 16 13:32
oiaohmSafest place to try experments is userspace before moving them into kernel.Sep 16 13:32
*fewa sighs that oiaohm still doesn't get itSep 16 13:32
oiaohmPolicykit is just a new veration on role based secuirty.Sep 16 13:33
fewawell you have to load a kernel module just to get a god mode?Sep 16 13:34
fewathat it the type of insanity I am trying to preemptSep 16 13:34
oiaohmLSM modules can already take god mode away.Sep 16 13:34
fewaBut that is the user choiceSep 16 13:35
fewathat is goodSep 16 13:35
oiaohmRoot user is more than virtual.Sep 16 13:35
oiaohmRoot as application secuirty level could be done.Sep 16 13:35
fewaoiaohm, but root user can still change the LSM module settingsSep 16 13:35
oiaohmNot after LSM is loaded.Sep 16 13:35
fewawith a reboot, yesSep 16 13:35
oiaohmOr if kernel was built without virtual user rootSep 16 13:36
fewathen its a closed kernelSep 16 13:36
oiaohmNoSep 16 13:36
fewato the POV of the user, yesSep 16 13:36
oiaohmYou still have creditionals that can be on applications.Sep 16 13:36
fewait could be approiate for the applicationsSep 16 13:36
oiaohmAllowing the god mode another way.Sep 16 13:36
oiaohmMore controlled.Sep 16 13:36
fewabut then it immediately ceases to be a general purpose machine at the kernel level and aboveSep 16 13:36
oiaohmNo it does not.Sep 16 13:38
fewaif the user cannot load kernel modules and turn off LSMSep 16 13:38
fewathen yesSep 16 13:38
oiaohmIf application that loads modules is approved root user does not need to be.Sep 16 13:38
fewaoiaohm, yes, i agreeSep 16 13:38
oiaohmIts a different design.Sep 16 13:38
fewabut then the application that can load modules is in the "god mode"Sep 16 13:38
oiaohmInstead of root user you have approved applications.Sep 16 13:38
fewathat application is godSep 16 13:38
oiaohmYep.Sep 16 13:38
fewaif that application doesn't allow the user access to the machineSep 16 13:38
fewathen the system is brokenSep 16 13:38
oiaohmAnd user cannot run an application as god by mistake.Sep 16 13:38
fewato the point of view of the userSep 16 13:38
fewaand ceases to be a general purpose machineSep 16 13:38
oiaohmIn application based user can approve applications.Sep 16 13:38
fewawell now i see our differencesSep 16 13:39
oiaohmApplications don't automatically get rights.Sep 16 13:39
oiaohmJust because a user run it.Sep 16 13:39
oiaohmIe less risk of human error.Sep 16 13:39
fewayou have a belief that the application is right, and that the user should not be able to override the applicationSep 16 13:39
MinceR143932 < oiaohm> Allowing the god mode another way.Sep 16 13:39
MinceR143939 < oiaohm> More controlled.Sep 16 13:39
MinceRthat's a contradiction in terms :>Sep 16 13:40
fewathat recompilation is the only way to change the systemSep 16 13:40
oiaohmNoSep 16 13:40
fewareinstallation the only way to change permissionsSep 16 13:40
oiaohmroot user god mode hands out rights like candy.Sep 16 13:40
fewaat the top levelSep 16 13:40
fewaof courseSep 16 13:40
fewasomething mustSep 16 13:40
fewathe kernel does the same thingSep 16 13:40
oiaohmDoes it have to without checking with user.Sep 16 13:41
oiaohmAnswer no.Sep 16 13:41
fewaand it is carefully engineered to not accidentally hand out rights that were not intendedSep 16 13:41
fewaI understand what you are sayingSep 16 13:41
fewabut you are completely missing my pointSep 16 13:41
MinceRwell, optimally you'll only ever need "god mode" if the system is really screwed -- so you gain root via single-user mode or init=/bin/sh or a similar trickSep 16 13:41
oiaohmCurrent root user is not engineered to prevent rights being handed out by mistakes.Sep 16 13:41
fewayou perspective is wrongSep 16 13:41
fewaMinceR, yeah thats getting thereSep 16 13:41
oiaohmApplication approval mode still does not mean you cannot get back into system.Sep 16 13:42
fewaMinceR, but in such a system you would have to reboot the computer and do that for and security bug, or to change permission structuresSep 16 13:42
fewamaybe that is needed, i do not knowSep 16 13:42
fewa*anySep 16 13:42
MinceRyou could be granted a capability to change permission structures as a userSep 16 13:43
fewabut than that user is esstially a godSep 16 13:43
oiaohmIe if you have the permission to assign permissions to applications you don't need anything else.Sep 16 13:43
fewaunless he can only change certain predefined permissionsSep 16 13:43
oiaohmBecause what is using the permissions anyhow.Sep 16 13:43
fewaMinceR, capabilities to change permission is exactly what root itSep 16 13:43
fewachange file permissions, device permissionsSep 16 13:43
fewacan change the security API of the whole system really easilySep 16 13:44
fewaits a powerful rol that should not be overusedSep 16 13:44
MinceRit could be safer to really only gain capabilities to change permissions directlySep 16 13:44
fewaMinceR, howSep 16 13:44
fewayou just change the permission so you are allowedSep 16 13:44
oiaohmDoes having only power to change permissions on applications give you means to do equal to root use.Sep 16 13:44
fewaand then use use that permissionSep 16 13:44
MinceR(so that a bug in your utility that changes them won't do something like write on the hdd randomly just because it can :> )Sep 16 13:44
fewaits really simpleSep 16 13:44
MinceRfewa: the difference is when mistakes are madeSep 16 13:45
fewaMinceR, you can force that program to reboot, but that is an inconvinience, not a security feeatureSep 16 13:45
MinceRi don't want to force it to reboot, i want to deny it such requestsSep 16 13:45
fewaMinceR, yeah systems should be designed to help the administrator from making mistakesSep 16 13:45
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] #Novell ’s #Moonlight Becomes Less Relevant as #Silverlight Gets Dumped Again 16 13:45
fewanot doing things that are unexpected, or could be destructiveSep 16 13:45
oiaohmSystems should not hand out permissions to applications like candy either fewaSep 16 13:45
MinceRthese are mostly programmer's mistakes, not admin's mistakesSep 16 13:46
fewatheir can be safegaurd like oiaohm sugggest ( and i think are great) to reverse things that administrators doSep 16 13:46
fewaMinceR, there we goSep 16 13:46
fewaMinceR, thats exactly my pointSep 16 13:46
oiaohmMixture of both.Sep 16 13:46
oiaohmReally lot of programming mistakes are made worse by applications being run with more permissions then they really need.Sep 16 13:47
fewathere needs to be a god mode that the user can use, but the administrator needs to learn not to blindly trust programs to use it responsibleSep 16 13:47
fewa*responsiblySep 16 13:47
fewathere should be great tools to deliniate those permissionsSep 16 13:47
oiaohmMy god mode is application based where you have to give permissions to applications you want to have them.  Not that it automatically just happens.Sep 16 13:47
fewaoiaohm, you still don't understand the differn't between the programmer and the administrator/user hereSep 16 13:48
fewaare are reversing their roles from realitySep 16 13:48
oiaohmI am a administrator fewaSep 16 13:48
oiaohmI know the errors I have done.Sep 16 13:48
fewaYour idea to stop errors are greatSep 16 13:48
fewaI really like themSep 16 13:48
fewaPolicyKit can really help reduce themSep 16 13:49
oiaohmI also have to clean up systems after errors.Sep 16 13:49
fewatransaction based decisions could also be very usefulSep 16 13:49
oiaohmI have got to hate user grant applications all power user has without question.Sep 16 13:49
fewaI'm just saying that the programs cannot hold the users hand against the users wishesSep 16 13:49
fewathats how Microsoft Windows worksSep 16 13:49
fewa...or fails to wokSep 16 13:49
fewaLinux needs better tools to help the administrator not screw upSep 16 13:50
oiaohmWindows follows the line grant applications all rights the user has.Sep 16 13:50
fewacertainlySep 16 13:50
oiaohmThat is not a healthy thing.Sep 16 13:50
fewaoiaohm, but it also pretends to hold the user's and programmers handSep 16 13:50
fewapretending that there is securitySep 16 13:51
fewarequiring that programmers think around a "security system" that doesn't workSep 16 13:51
fewathis is the anethemaSep 16 13:51
fewaand needs to be avoided at all costsSep 16 13:51
oiaohmProgrammers can only think around secuirty system if they have something that bipasses it.Sep 16 13:51
fewathe school of hard knocks that traditional UNIX is is better than thatSep 16 13:51
fewabut Linux can improve on it by empowering Admistrators and applying rules of least supriseSep 16 13:52
fewaI personally am _really_ excited about brtfs and COW filesystemSep 16 13:52
oiaohmCurrent root user does not fall under least suprise.Sep 16 13:52
fewawill allow you to replay filesystem everysSep 16 13:52
oiaohmIts too simple to give an application too much power with current root user.Sep 16 13:52
fewaif you log it rightSep 16 13:52
fewaoiaohm, exactly, that is its weaknessSep 16 13:53
fewabut that doesn't mean it needs to be eliminatedSep 16 13:53
oiaohmNeed to be replaced because of its weakness.Sep 16 13:53
fewaas we see in Windows, attempts to outlaw Administrator/root do not workSep 16 13:53
fewathey are brutal disastersSep 16 13:53
fewathis is the fatal flaw in your thinkingSep 16 13:54
oiaohmMS desasters are there own fault.Sep 16 13:54
fewayou are a nilistSep 16 13:54
fewaand are throwing out the baby with the bathwaterSep 16 13:54
oiaohmOther OS's in history did it perfectly without issue.Sep 16 13:54
fewaoiaohm, which? the UNIX which you are attacking?Sep 16 13:54
oiaohmNot Unix'sSep 16 13:54
oiaohmSome were verations on them.Sep 16 13:54
oiaohmApplication based secuirty is not a new idea.Sep 16 13:55
fewaI thnk we believe in essentially the same thingSep 16 13:55
oiaohmMS tried going half way between to models.Sep 16 13:55
oiaohmIe services no secured.Sep 16 13:55
oiaohmuserspace application evelivation based.Sep 16 13:55
fewabut you don't seem to get or want to oncede my esstial pointSep 16 13:55
fewaand I have to admit that it is not a root "user"Sep 16 13:55
oiaohmThat was kinda going to go splat.Sep 16 13:55
fewabut rather there must be "god" credentials which are easy to useSep 16 13:56
fewaand deliniateSep 16 13:56
oiaohmI agree with god credentials to hand out powers.Sep 16 13:56
oiaohmKey words hand out powers.Sep 16 13:56
fewaIf that is given to a application, than that application must be really easy to useSep 16 13:56
fewaas init currently gets rootSep 16 13:56
oiaohmThe uncontrolled handing out of powers is a major problem.Sep 16 13:56
fewaand then deliniated from thereSep 16 13:57
fewa*deliniatesSep 16 13:57
oiaohmUnix got sevices kind of right.Sep 16 13:57
fewaoiaohm, so how are you going to delineate the credentials?Sep 16 13:57
oiaohmYep fewaSep 16 13:57
fewaoiaohm, well maybe them we are not so differn't---and this argument is over the semantics of "user"Sep 16 13:58
oiaohmFile based credentials already exist.Sep 16 13:58
fewaoiaohm, but who sets themSep 16 13:58
oiaohmCurrently I would have to use a flaged application.Sep 16 13:58
fewaonce again `trusted system or component' is defined as `one which can break the security policy'Sep 16 13:58
oiaohmDue to the fact the current creditional systems does not allow me to assign all right to a user and then not have it pass to the applications the user runs unless they are flaged.Sep 16 13:59
fewathe critical questions are "who/what is trusted?" and "how do those trusted delineate credentials/rights?"Sep 16 13:59
oiaohmYes who and what is trusted is critical.Sep 16 13:59
fewaoiaohm, yeah agreed, POSIX file permissions are fatally flawedSep 16 13:59
fewaa extremely crude system designed for the limitations of the day that could be significantly improvedSep 16 14:00
fewathose questions are the foundation of the power structure of the whole systemSep 16 14:00
oiaohmuser just answers one question.Sep 16 14:00
oiaohmie whoSep 16 14:01
oiaohmIt never answers what should be trusted.Sep 16 14:01
fewai dont think that waySep 16 14:01
fewaI agree that applications should be limited to what they needSep 16 14:01
fewato allow the user to protect himselfSep 16 14:01
oiaohmShould a web browser be trusted just because you run it as root.Sep 16 14:01
oiaohmie a whatSep 16 14:01
fewa(do think that the programmer is protecting the user, that is backwards)Sep 16 14:01
fewaoiaohm, YESSep 16 14:01
fewabut you should never run it as rootSep 16 14:02
oiaohmRoot users do make mistakesSep 16 14:02
fewaas only a fool would do thatSep 16 14:02
oiaohmLike mixing up what terminal is the root terminal and what termanal is the user.Sep 16 14:02
oiaohmHuman error.Sep 16 14:02
oiaohmyou don't need to be a fool to make human error.Sep 16 14:02
fewa--and people should be informed of what is foolhardySep 16 14:03
oiaohmYou just need the right ammount of lack of sleep.Sep 16 14:03
fewaoiaohm, of courseSep 16 14:03
fewabut the system cannot outsmart the userSep 16 14:03
oiaohmOf course not.Sep 16 14:03
fewaI'm just saying that god mode must existSep 16 14:03
oiaohmBut system should be trying to prevent a admin from human erroring themselves where it can.Sep 16 14:03
fewathat that it really should be able to do foolish thingsSep 16 14:03
oiaohmEven that the admin can decide to override it.Sep 16 14:03
fewait really should be able to run a web browser as rootSep 16 14:03
fewaI'm not saying people should do these things: they should notSep 16 14:04
oiaohmweb browser not approved runs lower.Sep 16 14:04
oiaohmSo not a system threat.Sep 16 14:04
fewaall the stuff you talk about should be implamentedSep 16 14:04
fewaweb browsers should not run with the full permissions of the userSep 16 14:04
fewathey should run with limited permissions, only what they need to do their jobSep 16 14:04
fewaall applications a user runs should be on a need-to-know basisSep 16 14:05
oiaohmroot user need to either disappear or be replaced with something application based secuirty.Sep 16 14:05
fewaI'm just saying that the administrator must always be allowed to make foolish choicesSep 16 14:05
fewathe system and the system programmer should not try to outsmart the administratorSep 16 14:05
oiaohmIf they request it.Sep 16 14:05
oiaohmNot just because of a moment of not thinking.Sep 16 14:06
fewathat critical point is what ive been arguing this last hourSep 16 14:06
oiaohmWhat I am talking about is not trying to outsmart the admin.Sep 16 14:06
fewaoiaohm, yeah you are rightSep 16 14:06
fewathe system interface is deeply flawedSep 16 14:06
fewamany problems with itSep 16 14:06
oiaohmMost not hard really to address.Sep 16 14:07
fewaThe best solution you have stated in implamenting undo functionsSep 16 14:07
oiaohmMostly take up better models and move away from user based secuirty.Sep 16 14:07
fewaI think a COW filesystem is one a the best first steps towards thatSep 16 14:07
oiaohmNot cowSep 16 14:07
fewaas it can do it without losing functionalitySep 16 14:07
oiaohmnilfs fewaSep 16 14:07
fewaor speedSep 16 14:07
oiaohmLoging filesystems.Sep 16 14:08
oiaohmThere is a difference.Sep 16 14:08
fewacombinationSep 16 14:08
oiaohmlogging can recycle.Sep 16 14:08
oiaohmcow don't recycle.Sep 16 14:08
oiaohmIe cow you will always fill the disk in time.Sep 16 14:08
fewaCOW is an important part of making a good NILFS work wellSep 16 14:08
fewaoiaohm, it deleted that which is oldestSep 16 14:08
fewa*deleatesSep 16 14:08
fewadeletesSep 16 14:08
oiaohmLogging deletes the oldest.Sep 16 14:09
fewaafter it is no longger a problemSep 16 14:09
oiaohmJust cow does not.Sep 16 14:09
fewaits implamentations doSep 16 14:09
fewathe COW is that way it is efficiently implamentedSep 16 14:09
oiaohmlogging and cow are classed of implementations.Sep 16 14:09
fewahmmSep 16 14:09
oiaohmlogging uses cow and has oldest removal.Sep 16 14:09
fewaI don't see why they are exclusive of each otherSep 16 14:09
fewaso you are saying NILFS is a superset of COW?Sep 16 14:10
oiaohmCOW alone does not have oldest removal.Sep 16 14:10
oiaohmNILFS is a logging class filesystem.Sep 16 14:10
fewaBRTFS is COWSep 16 14:10
fewaand provides access to old dataSep 16 14:10
fewabut i guess there is a differn'tSep 16 14:11
oiaohmDoes not provide a automatic removal system.Sep 16 14:11
oiaohmSo yes its a COW.Sep 16 14:11
oiaohma pure one.Sep 16 14:11
fewaexactlySep 16 14:11
fewaa pure COW is fully reversableSep 16 14:11
fewaas long as it logs metadataSep 16 14:11
oiaohmPure COWs are harddrive eaters.Sep 16 14:11
fewalog metadata and COW dataSep 16 14:11
fewahmm.Sep 16 14:11
fewawhy?Sep 16 14:12
fewafragmentation?Sep 16 14:12
*MinceR sends the Pure COW to graze on the magnetic field.Sep 16 14:12
oiaohmBecause you have to remember to remove the oldest.Sep 16 14:12
fewaoiaohm, if there is a log how is that hard?Sep 16 14:12
*wallclimber (n=ozma@ has joined #boycottnovellSep 16 14:12
oiaohmWhere a logging has the means to remove old records and keep on going when records become not important.Sep 16 14:12
fewaa linier log would create much more fragmentation than COWSep 16 14:13
oiaohmYes they really should have given that class a better now.Sep 16 14:13
fewaits like amendments in congressSep 16 14:13
fewa...slash this word from here, and add this word here...Sep 16 14:13
fewayou never get the context or underand anythingSep 16 14:13
oiaohmIe logging filesystem is a COW filesystem with GCSep 16 14:13
fewaCOW is the proper way to think about itSep 16 14:13
fewanot loggingSep 16 14:14
oiaohmThe name is kinda wrong.Sep 16 14:14
fewalogging is emperical from the wrong angleSep 16 14:14
oiaohmBut it has kind stuck.Sep 16 14:14
fewahmmSep 16 14:14
oiaohmit was using wrong on the first logging filesystem.Sep 16 14:14
fewaI only hear about COWSep 16 14:14
fewaand that makes senseSep 16 14:14
fewaits extremely logicalSep 16 14:14
oiaohmCopy on write is used many places.Sep 16 14:14
fewaIt puts the data as the first class objectSep 16 14:15
fewaand describes an efficent way to manage copying and logging of changesSep 16 14:15
oiaohmFirst filesystem taged cow was ext2 altered to be cow.Sep 16 14:15
oiaohmIt had no clean up system.Sep 16 14:15
fewawell COW needs a logSep 16 14:15
oiaohmSo one day it would stop out of disk space.Sep 16 14:15
fewaa log of metadataSep 16 14:15
oiaohmThat is where logging name comes from fewaSep 16 14:16
fewawell okSep 16 14:16
oiaohmext2 cow did not.Sep 16 14:16
fewabut i think the COW paradime makes more senseSep 16 14:16
oiaohmIt just never overwrote anything.Sep 16 14:16
oiaohmSo you could reconstruct backwards.Sep 16 14:16
fewaand should be the arvertismentSep 16 14:16
oiaohmIe a file system that is just COW is not that useful.Sep 16 14:17
fewacause if you think from "log" you miss the pointSep 16 14:17
fewato me that just gives a bad pictureSep 16 14:17
oiaohmI said the name suxed.Sep 16 14:17
fewabut yeah you are rightSep 16 14:17
fewaits log+cowSep 16 14:17
fewawell anyways... I want it :PSep 16 14:17
fewaand if you fallowed the UNIX paradim of making everything the file system then you could apply it to everythingSep 16 14:18
fewawith a universal APISep 16 14:18
fewanow that would be coolSep 16 14:18
fewalike storying snapshots of programs as then runSep 16 14:19
oiaohmBeen tried.Sep 16 14:19
fewacoinciding with the states of files in their namespacesSep 16 14:19
oiaohmGuess what you can already do it.Sep 16 14:19
oiaohmCgroupsSep 16 14:19
oiaohmYou can snapshot running programs.Sep 16 14:19
fewayeah, but it needs a good overriding API, and something comperable with filesystems at the same timeSep 16 14:20
fewaand if i am not mistaken brtfs will offer thatSep 16 14:20
oiaohmYep.Sep 16 14:20
fewait seems so coolSep 16 14:20
oiaohmCgroup developers are waiting on btrfs or equal.Sep 16 14:20
fewalike you can mount the way the filesystem was at any point in timeSep 16 14:20
fewasee this is awesomeSep 16 14:21
fewayou can have a time machine for all events on the system in an efficient mannerSep 16 14:21
fewaI cant wait to see it in actionSep 16 14:21
oiaohmKey difference is that you with btrfs is that you can start writing from any point you mount.Sep 16 14:21
oiaohmIe any point in time.Sep 16 14:21
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] #Microsoft Hides Bad Results in the Closet 16 14:21
fewaonce you can do that it will get really important to define process namespacesSep 16 14:21
oiaohmnilfs does not allow you to start another time line.Sep 16 14:21
fewaso that not everything is coupled with everything elseSep 16 14:21
fewaand fallow that reorganization security deliniation and LSM will get much easierSep 16 14:22
*fewa can hardly hold back his excitmentSep 16 14:22
fewa*fallowingSep 16 14:22
fewaas processes will can be forced to have their requirements clearly definedSep 16 14:22
fewa..or encouragedSep 16 14:23
fewathere will be a rational on putting your program into a boxSep 16 14:23
fewaoiaohm, thats why the paradime is wrongSep 16 14:24
fewaoiaohm, it has to be a tree structureSep 16 14:24
fewaand COW fits that paradimeSep 16 14:24
fewa*paradigmSep 16 14:25
fewagod my spelling sucksSep 16 14:25
fewaoiaohm, doesn't it seem exciting?Sep 16 14:26
oiaohmWe have seen nothing yet.Sep 16 14:26
oiaohmI am looking forward to the Linux kernel by default being a real-time kernel.Sep 16 14:27
fewato have real control over the execution accessSep 16 14:27
fewawhat type of differnt program could you designSep 16 14:28
fewaanyways, despite hash words I do think we agreeSep 16 14:28
fewa*harshSep 16 14:28
oiaohmIt was a context difference.Sep 16 14:28
oiaohmMissing the importance I was putting on 1 word user.  Since that was in my mind defining how the secuirty was applied.Sep 16 14:29
fewaoiaohm, whats the difference with real time?Sep 16 14:29
*kazakh (i=5ef67e72@gateway/web/freenode/x-cjmqmzpmvvvixerx) has joined #boycottnovellSep 16 14:29
oiaohmStuff like pulseaudio and jack audio working for one fewaSep 16 14:30
oiaohmLess locks in the kernel so better over all performance.Sep 16 14:30
fewaand how does it differ from what we have now?Sep 16 14:30
oiaohmThere is still about another 200 locks to go.Sep 16 14:30
oiaohmIe disappear for good never to return.Sep 16 14:30
fewa says that memory management at low memory situation has improved resposiveness of desktops by 50% in 2.6.31Sep 16 14:31
oiaohmThat was a swap out stupidity fix.Sep 16 14:31
fewajust like lock fixesSep 16 14:31
oiaohmSince binaries are maped files.Sep 16 14:31
fewaevening out the bumps of running a secure systemSep 16 14:31
oiaohmthe memory manager was throwing them out of memory.Sep 16 14:31
oiaohmInstead of swaping anything.Sep 16 14:32
fewathe difference between kernel mode and user mode is the same as the root user stuff we were talking about a minute agoSep 16 14:32
oiaohmNot really handy having to reload the next application because you dumped it out of memory.Sep 16 14:32
fewathe same sort of problems, and solved through having a kernel which performed trusted events on the behalf of programsSep 16 14:33
oiaohmYep 50 percent peformance just by making memory manager a little smarter.Sep 16 14:33
fewathats allot like your application-based security you were just stressingSep 16 14:33
oiaohmThere is already fragments of applications based secuirty there.Sep 16 14:33
fewabut the _settings_ of the security are outside the kernelSep 16 14:34
fewathe kernel only sets the context of security settingsSep 16 14:34
oiaohmkernel responds to the context of secuirty settings.Sep 16 14:34
fewathats kinda the same as the distinction I was just hammeringSep 16 14:35
oiaohmIt is the one in control of how the context will be processed.Sep 16 14:35
fewathose context definitions are the most critical part of the security system, and the system in generalSep 16 14:35
oiaohmWe are different.  I talk more in secuirty design words.Sep 16 14:35
fewayeah, you have any literature i should read?Sep 16 14:35
kazakhHey guys, have you hard of the news Tax Commitee in Kazakhstan has bought over 6000 PCs with XP and preinstalled? This is one of the largest deployments in government and Micro$oft got pissed off of it. High M$ officials are now doing dirty tricks now to bribe Tax commitee away from OO and hide this incident. Let's spread the word. M$ must not succeed in their dirty tricks!Sep 16 14:36
oiaohmbugger I cannot remember the name fewa there is the old USA mil OS secuirty design document.   its something book I cannot remember the color fewaSep 16 14:37
fewai really liked that Department defence definition of trustedSep 16 14:37
fewamakes alot of senseSep 16 14:37
oiaohmYes all these years latter its a solid book.Sep 16 14:37
oiaohmCovers all the current forms of secuirty systems even ones not common implemented.Sep 16 14:38
trmancokazakh: good move indeed, but it would be a lot better if it was shipped with a real OS :-PSep 16 14:38
oiaohmtrmanco: it is a start.Sep 16 14:38
kazakhYes, but it's the first step in the right direction.Sep 16 14:38
fewaIts from the designers point of viewSep 16 14:38
oiaohmBig issue here MS will most likely give them software for nothing.Sep 16 14:38
fewainstead the view of the pawn in the gameSep 16 14:38
oiaohmTo try to get them back.Sep 16 14:38
fewa*instead ofSep 16 14:38
kazakhAnd it is at risk now. M$ is very good at persuading governemtn officials.Sep 16 14:39
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[trmanco] Hello everybody!Sep 16 14:39
oiaohmYes the document has down side it does not cover how to be nice to users fewa.Sep 16 14:39
fewaOne of the fundamental truths I hold is the futility of trying to prevent others from being foolsSep 16 14:40
oiaohmYou cannot help fools.Sep 16 14:40
oiaohmBecause they are too creative.Sep 16 14:40
fewaAll people can be foolsSep 16 14:41
oiaohmDarwin awards proves that in spades.Sep 16 14:41
fewaits essentially a ways of blaming the victimSep 16 14:41
oiaohmNot really.Sep 16 14:41
oiaohmNot all people are fools.Sep 16 14:41
oiaohmEvery human makes human error.Sep 16 14:41
oiaohmNon fool when pulled up on human error goes opps better not do that.Sep 16 14:41
kazakhHow can we get Roy investigate this and put it in light. I really wish other governemnt bodies follow the suit. Its huge saving for the public. ThxSep 16 14:42
fewakazakh, yeah I bet schestowitz can write an article about itSep 16 14:42
oiaohmThe system need to protect and help  fewa.  ie help by providing notice to user when they are doing something strange.Sep 16 14:43
fewakazakh, it would help if you suggest what he should write, collect sources, etcSep 16 14:43
fewatell the storySep 16 14:43
kazakhI'll try.Sep 16 14:43
fewayou already have done that somewhatSep 16 14:43
fewabut sources are always goodSep 16 14:43
kazakhI cant be too open though, working for the partner who works with commitee and even M$ itself. will be fired same moment :)Sep 16 14:44
fewanothing eleborate.. and then just mention it to schestowitz when he in onSep 16 14:44
fewajust say what you want toSep 16 14:44
fewaemail it to him if that worksSep 16 14:44
kazakhOK. I'll try find official link.Sep 16 14:45
fewafrom what you have already said it seems pretty cut and drySep 16 14:45
kazakhpost it here.Sep 16 14:45
fewaoiaohm, agreedSep 16 14:45
oiaohmEmail to schestowitz for more complex can be more effective.Sep 16 14:45
oiaohmIe sometimes schestowitz misses a message in here kazakhSep 16 14:46
oiaohmBasically if you just post it here make sure schestowitz picked it up kazakhSep 16 14:46
kazakhthere's was official tender results declaration on their site in russian. cant find it now. but I will persevere :)Sep 16 14:47
oiaohmfewa: really I need to get a good writer at some time to help me write a book on how to design a secuirty system that will not piss off users.Sep 16 14:47
fewaI think designing a system that can transpose the passage of execution and branch it could be enlighteningSep 16 14:49
fewabut yeah, that would be cool I would like to read it :PSep 16 14:49
fewaand you should remember that Military design book you were thinking ofSep 16 14:49
fewa*Military security designSep 16 14:50
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] #Vista7 Hype is Torn Apart, One ‘Feature’ at a Time 16 14:59
kazakhBloody M$ seems succeeded in overturning this tender. or close to it. cant find the declaration on their site any more.Sep 16 15:04
kazakhCan someone please advise Roys contacts?Sep 16 15:05
kazakhOr at least when he is here.Sep 16 15:05
kazakhthxSep 16 15:05
oiaohm  Found the list of the old USA mil books fewaSep 16 15:06
fewaschestowitz,Sep 16 15:09
fewa"In trusted products at the high end ofSep 16 15:11
fewathe range, the strength of the reference monitor is such that most of theSep 16 15:11
fewacomponents can be completely untrusted. "Sep 16 15:11
fewafrom the preface to the first oneSep 16 15:11
fewaexactly--very little code is security sensitiveSep 16 15:12
fewaahaSep 16 15:12
fewayou have to remember that in the days of linux there were also distinct POVs on securitySep 16 15:13
fewait was security of the system, not the usersSep 16 15:13
fewa*user(s)Sep 16 15:13
fewain Windows its about security to the win32 APISep 16 15:13
fewain "Trusted Computing" its about control of the MAFIAA and the computer vendorsSep 16 15:14
fewabut since trust always depends on mutuality, the only really trusted system has to place the users and the administrators firstSep 16 15:14
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fewaanyways...Sep 16 15:15
fewagive them power to place trustSep 16 15:16
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twitterugh, there was an excellent tear down article about XP emulation in Windows 7 being good only for "green screen cobalt" applications.Sep 16 15:36
twittercan't find itSep 16 15:36
trmanco 16 15:46
trmancoomfgSep 16 15:47
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trmancosee the serial key the guy gave himSep 16 15:47
trmancoHINT: Try to read itSep 16 15:47
twitterwas it, "getgnulinux" ?Sep 16 15:50
fewatwitter, it should beSep 16 15:50
fewaor dEfE-ctiVe-By412-dEsIg-NSep 16 15:50
fewatrmanco, also link to the real thing, not reddit framset pagesSep 16 15:51
trmancosorrySep 16 15:52
fewaalthough I am a reddit fanSep 16 15:53
MinceR:)Sep 16 15:53
trmanco:)Sep 16 15:53
fewa"Am I the only one who sees something wrong here? I came home from abroad by way of JFK International. In the customs area they had a sign saying that there's a $5,000 for assaulting a federal officer. I go home, pop in a DVD and am reminded that copying this DVD will incur a $250,000 fine. "Sep 16 15:54
fewalawlSep 16 15:54
MinceR:)Sep 16 15:55
MinceRsolution: instead of copying that dvd, take a video of you beating up a federal officer and copy that instead!Sep 16 15:55
fewawhat does the AMA suffix mean?Sep 16 15:55
fewa 16 15:59
fewayep, huffingtonpost is falling into banalitySep 16 16:00
fewa"Sep 16 16:01
fewa    The Obama administration argued Monday that allowing terrorism suspects in Afghanistan to challenge their incarceration in U.S. courts would endanger the military mission in that country."Sep 16 16:01
*twitter1 has quit ("Leaving.")Sep 16 16:01
fewaThe don't even pretend anymoreSep 16 16:01
fewaunadulterated attack on exercise of liberty and on accountabilitySep 16 16:02
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fewathere should be a open source reddit cloneSep 16 16:10
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fewa    Didn't anyone notice that Obama campaigned as a centrist?Sep 16 16:20
fewaExactly. However, Palin and her ilk insisted on calling him a socialist/communist and it might have gotten people's hopes up.Sep 16 16:20
fewalawlSep 16 16:21
kazakhWhat's a way to contact Roy Schestowitz? I'd like to share a news which burns my head. Does someone know? ThxSep 16 16:21
fewaschestowitz, wakeupSep 16 16:22
fewa* [schestowitz] idle 03:14:16, signon: Fri Sep 11 06:16:33Sep 16 16:23
fewai dont know his email, check out the web siteSep 16 16:23
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kazakhI gone thru the site and cant find his mail :(Sep 16 16:34
kazakhBut right, if he in US he must sleep now in his timezone.Sep 16 16:35
_goblinno he is UKSep 16 16:35
_goblinits 1638Sep 16 16:35
_goblinhe will be about soon I would expect...Sep 16 16:36
kazakhok thx i will try in couple hoursSep 16 16:43
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[trmanco] Tomar uma banhoSep 16 16:44
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amarsh04kazakh:  if you know the convention of changing email addresses, you can use: roy at schestowitz dot comSep 16 16:53
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schestowitzhey, kazakhSep 16 16:59
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sebsebsebhiSep 16 17:05
schestowitzHi, sebsebsebSep 16 17:07
sebsebsebschestowitz: hiSep 16 17:07
kazakhhi roy. glad to hear uSep 16 17:17
kazakhthx amarsh04. easy! how i guessed it not self.Sep 16 17:19
amarsh04good kazakh, anyway, schestowitz is here now alsoSep 16 17:19
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[davidgerard] exercises in temper control: not striking down teen with lightning from above when she calls james brown "chav music"Sep 16 17:21
kazakhroy, i want to share news that Kazakhstani Tax Commitee bought 6000 PCs with installed. this is huge migration in government. but m$ trying now hard to bribe Tax Commitee officials to overturn tender results.Sep 16 17:21
kazakhit is good saving for public money and self am a good taxpayerSep 16 17:22
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[davidgerard] true love: reinstalling windows for your loved one's daughter. FUCKING THING AAARGH.Sep 16 17:22
kazakhif this news spread well, other government officials will follow. but, micro$oft dosnt like it.Sep 16 17:23
kazakhso they hide it. how can we help spread this? thxSep 16 17:24
_goblinkazakh: Have you any links?Sep 16 17:26
schestowitzHey, kazakhSep 16 17:26
schestowitzAre you on IRC via a phone?Sep 16 17:27
schestowitzkazakh: can you share the details here?Sep 16 17:27
schestowitzMicrosoft visited your countrySep 16 17:27
_gobliniphone I'd guess?Sep 16 17:28
schestowitzThey send the 'anti-Linux' guy, OrlandoSep 16 17:28
schestowitzWhy is Microsoft’s Anti-Linux Man Negotiating with Kazakhstan? < >Sep 16 17:28
_goblinahSep 16 17:29
_goblinis BN down?Sep 16 17:29
_goblinoh hang on....Sep 16 17:29
_goblinnope its ok.Sep 16 17:29
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] #CodePlex Foundation Loves Software #Patents and What #MonoTouch Means to #Microsoft 16 17:30
schestowitzkazakh: I have to run to a meetingSep 16 17:30
schestowitzHere's what I suggestSep 16 17:31
schestowitzI have some background information on thisSep 16 17:31
schestowitzPaste here in IRC any links that provide context and new informationSep 16 17:31
schestowitzI'd need to check the facts with some URLs that lie aroundSep 16 17:31
schestowitzIf you have a document you can link, you have my mail addressSep 16 17:31
schestowitzWe can make a post itSep 16 17:31
*schestowitz back in 2 hoursSep 16 17:31
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[trmanco] /me Opens NetbeansSep 16 17:33
kazakhok. I will find information in russian and translate it for you and will email. Thx. Let us not allow them getaway with it.Sep 16 17:33
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-BNc/#boycottnovell-[trmanco] ♻ @mattcutts: Google acquires reCAPTCHA: Yay! And here's a captcha cartoon for you: 16 17:50
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-BNc/#boycottnovell-[trmanco] Já implementei a minha ideia... está na hora agora de fazer outra coisa :-PSep 16 17:56
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-BNc/#boycottnovell-[popey] The awesome @dholbach has made a screencast showing how to file bugs in Ubuntu! 16 18:37
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_goblinNot impressed at all with gNewsense 2.3Sep 16 18:49
_goblinit merely 8.04 with outdated packages and minus anything non-free.Sep 16 18:50
_goblinthe average Linux user could do this themselves with a standard Ubuntu install and the new user is not going to migrate from Windows to this (IMO)Sep 16 18:51
_goblinand thats not including its packaged with years old software.....Sep 16 18:51
_goblinfirst bad distro review.Sep 16 18:51
_goblinThe only thing in its favour is the fact MONO is stripped from it.....Sep 16 18:52
_goblinand of course you have the stability of 8.04LTS running under the hood.Sep 16 18:52
trmancoI like more bleeding edgeSep 16 18:55
_goblinthis was more like bleeding out of date!Sep 16 18:57
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_goblinI feel a little bad posting a bad distro review....Sep 16 18:58
trmancothe version of software in gnewsense are the same as in 8.04, correct?Sep 16 19:00
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sebsebsebtrmanco: I think so,  and  free software only in gnewsenseSep 16 19:09
*Guest41477 is now known as BalrogSep 16 19:09
trmancothen it's not really that outdatedSep 16 19:09
sebsebsebtrmanco: Heh I thought this was the Ubuntu support channal  just before replying to youSep 16 19:10
trmancololSep 16 19:10
fewa_trmanco, aww reallySep 16 19:17
fewa_reCAPCHA was a great thingSep 16 19:17
fewa_and now it will be subject to a google cookie?Sep 16 19:17
trmancoand is a great thingSep 16 19:17
trmancoI use itSep 16 19:18
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schestowitz_goblin: good news about no mono in gnewsenseSep 16 19:32
schestowitz_goblin: gnewsense needs to bve reviewed for what it isSep 16 19:32
schestowitzIt's a FREE (libre) distroSep 16 19:32
schestowitzIt's _Winning_ for what it is -- enabling the users to be freeSep 16 19:33
schestowitzMatt Cutts Extends Offer To Yahoo Engineers 16 19:39
*fewa_ is now known as fewaSep 16 19:40
_goblinsorry...afkSep 16 19:41
_goblinyeah the problem with it is that is based on very old s/wSep 16 19:41
_goblinand not an enticement to go 100% free.Sep 16 19:42
schestowitz[IMG] 16 19:42
schestowitz_goblin: the enticement is not tehcnicalSep 16 19:42
schestowitzMore philosophical or politicalSep 16 19:42
fewaDebian and Fedora are also libre distrosSep 16 19:42
_goblinagreed...but then one would say simply go 9.04 and strip it yourself.Sep 16 19:43
fewaand then you are not running a forked DebianSep 16 19:43
schestowitzfewa: not to the same extentSep 16 19:43
fewabiggest difference I can think of in binary blogs in the kernelSep 16 19:44
fewa*blobsSep 16 19:44
fewaalso gnewsense is designed without the non-free reposSep 16 19:45
fewabut what else schestowitz ?Sep 16 19:45
schestowitzExactly.Sep 16 19:45
schestowitzNot sure if there is anything elseSep 16 19:45
schestowitzHmm... that last COmes exhibit is linked from many places, I see...Sep 16 19:47
schestowitzWe need to decide on more to decode.Sep 16 19:47
_goblinI think its a difficult one to recommend to users will find it restrictive (IMO) and experienced ones can do it themselves anyway....Sep 16 19:47
schestowitzwallclimber does the next part of Nathan (the troll) on LinuxSep 16 19:47
schestowitz_goblin: it's not for newbiesSep 16 19:47
schestowitzIt may be recommended among FSF's listSep 16 19:47
schestowitzBLAG, Utoto and othersSep 16 19:48
schestowitz_goblin: mandatory reading (obligatory rather): 16 19:51
schestowitzAssessing gnewsense as though it was for Jon and Jane is like checking out some chainsaw for a chef's kitchenSep 16 19:52
trmanco 16 19:53
schestowitzThis is why Linux ain't going away, ever. 16 19:53
schestowitzMicrosoft abandoned not only XP but also its sibling. 16 19:54
schestowitzHA!Sep 16 19:54
schestowitzThey must be running out of skilled programmers or staff or something, like oiaohm saidSep 16 19:55
schestowitz 16 19:55
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[_goblin] gNewsense 2.3-deltah review: #linux #fossSep 16 19:55
schestowitz 16 19:55
schestowitz^an excuse for selling more new carsSep 16 19:55
schestowitzSheriff Uses Craigslist To Arrest Prostitutes... Blames Craigslist 16 19:57
schestowitzfewa: Anti-Choice Floridians Peddling Constitutional Amendment to Criminalize Birth Control Pill 16 19:57
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-BNc/#boycottnovell-[davidgerard] I have actually found the use case where Windows 7 is a superior upgrade to XP! 16 20:03
DaemonFC 16 20:08
DaemonFCI noticed that oneSep 16 20:08
DaemonFCInstead of giving you Pidgin, they give you a half-finished, alpha quality program called EmpathySep 16 20:08
MinceRdoes empathy depend on mono?Sep 16 20:09
schestowitzEmpathy...... seen a feature comparison today?Sep 16 20:09
schestowitzWOTZ wrong w/ Pisgin?Sep 16 20:09
schestowitz*Pidgin/Sep 16 20:09
schestowitzThey also want to replace GIMPSep 16 20:09
schestowitzPerfectly fine appsSep 16 20:09
MinceRi've seen pidgin crash on incoming messagesSep 16 20:09
MinceRcurrently i use gajim at workSep 16 20:09
MinceRbut it isn't perfectSep 16 20:09
DaemonFCMinceR: Pidgin is affected by some MSN boot toolsSep 16 20:11
DaemonFCespecially the text formatting floodSep 16 20:11
fewaSheriffs don't like craigslist cause it cleans up prostitutionSep 16 20:12
fewatakes out the bribed, the pimpsSep 16 20:12
fewa*bribesSep 16 20:12
DaemonFCschestowitz: Replacing mature, stable, feature rich applications with alpha software is just not OKSep 16 20:12
MinceRthe message didn't come from someone who would use such toolsSep 16 20:12
DaemonFCEmpathy might be alright someday, but right now it's still a curiosity more than it is usefulSep 16 20:13
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[_goblin] Miguel snuggles closer to Microsoft : #microsoft #codeplex #mono #linux #fossSep 16 20:13
DaemonFCit just screams "Here, have another moderately acceptable experience with GNOME"Sep 16 20:14
DaemonFCI can understand why Brasero has a shared library for burning discs, other applications may find it usefulSep 16 20:15
DaemonFCI don't understand the point in a shared library for instant messagingSep 16 20:15
DaemonFCif you're already running one instant messenger, why does another app need to embed this library?Sep 16 20:15
MinceRthe point is that different UIs can use the same codeSep 16 20:16
fewaMinceR, empathy does not use monoSep 16 20:16
DaemonFCMinceR: Because that's not confusing or redundant or anything....Sep 16 20:16
DaemonFC:)Sep 16 20:16
MinceRfor example BitlBee was built on Pidgin's pluginsSep 16 20:16
MinceRback when libpurple didn't exist, afaikSep 16 20:16
MinceR(at least in part)Sep 16 20:16
fewait is all CSep 16 20:16
MinceRfewa: then my simple explanation doesn't apply :>Sep 16 20:16
DaemonFCMinceR: I don't get why you want another UI for a program that has the same limitations as the one you're trying to get rid ofSep 16 20:17
DaemonFCmaybe that's just meSep 16 20:17
MinceRthe UI can have limitations of its ownSep 16 20:17
MinceRor you might want to develop a bot for an IM systemSep 16 20:17
DaemonFCright now, Empathy has all the design problems of Pidgin plus more of its ownSep 16 20:17
DaemonFCit's a really poor exampleSep 16 20:18
fewathere are many implamentations of these networking IM protocolsSep 16 20:18
MinceRi didn't bring up EmpathySep 16 20:18
fewaI think KDE has a indapandant one tooSep 16 20:18
fewa*independantSep 16 20:18
schestowitz?*Dent?Sep 16 20:18
DaemonFCsharing a back end between programs only makes sense if the back end does everything you could ever possibly need it to doSep 16 20:18
fewao yeahSep 16 20:19
DaemonFCit doesn't make sense to build a new app on a bad foundationSep 16 20:19
DaemonFCor one that's already reached its limitsSep 16 20:19
DaemonFCit's like saying you got lazy and instead of doing it over and doing it right, you just accept all the limitations of the shared library you're using because it gets the program out the door quickerSep 16 20:20
MinceRArthur Dent.Sep 16 20:20
MinceRDaemonFC: the backend can be extended/improved. it's free software. :>Sep 16 20:21
DaemonFCBy that logic, Firefox should have just been an MSIE shellSep 16 20:21
DaemonFCit would have gotten it out quickerSep 16 20:21
DaemonFCEmpathy isn't steering libpurple, so they have no control over what their own application doesSep 16 20:21
DaemonFCGNOME has gotten themselves in the same mess they were complaining about regarding Empathy/GeckoSep 16 20:22
DaemonFCEmpathy will drag on for a while, never surpass Pidgin, and Ubuntu has given users one more thing they need to know how to go grabSep 16 20:23
schestowitzMinceR: Orthodontist?Sep 16 20:23
DaemonFCAt least KDE controls where they are going with their desktopSep 16 20:24
DaemonFCit's probably why they aren't rushing to cede control of it to AppleSep 16 20:24
_goblinQuote of the day (from a twitter user to me) "Personally though, I think FOSS will stay marginal. Communism didn't work in politics and it will not work in software either."Sep 16 20:24
_goblinso by that we are all communists apparently.Sep 16 20:24
schestowitz_goblin: hah!Sep 16 20:25
schestowitzTell people what the Internet is made ofSep 16 20:25
schestowitzComminet is a better name thenSep 16 20:25
MinceRschestowitz: nope.Sep 16 20:25
DaemonFChmmm, did you tell him to enjoy all the FOSS you have to use on Windows because the bundled shit is worthless-to-actively dangerous?Sep 16 20:25
_goblinits a new follower Ive picked up.....Sep 16 20:25
schestowitz_goblin: be carefulSep 16 20:25
schestowitzA Microsoft manager twitted me today, twiceSep 16 20:25
DaemonFCMicrosoft has pretty much derailed social mediaSep 16 20:26
schestowitzThey make contact.Sep 16 20:26
_goblinlol....Sep 16 20:26
DaemonFCby implanting their own astroturfersSep 16 20:26
_goblini wish you knew what I did for living wouldnt need to say that!Sep 16 20:26
schestowitzThey have patentsSep 16 20:26
schestowitzW-E has thatSep 16 20:26
schestowitzThey have trackers for TwitterSep 16 20:26
schestowitzAnd they have tons of accountsSep 16 20:26
schestowitzSome are Microsoft botsSep 16 20:26
schestowitzOr scanners that identify 'dissent'Sep 16 20:26
_goblinyep Ive seen some dodgy links coming in on my blog too..Sep 16 20:27
DaemonFCschestowitz: Buying those Linux-related patents just makes it look like Microsoft could have some more that are potentially useful in a lawsuitSep 16 20:27
DaemonFCI would have just let them goSep 16 20:27
_goblinIve been including those in my report.Sep 16 20:27
schestowitz_goblin: I know you're a goblinSep 16 20:27
DaemonFConce you start paying ransom and extortion and negotiating with terrorists, you can never shut that door againSep 16 20:27
_goblinRoy, out of all our conversations we've had you could probably make a guess.....Sep 16 20:27
_goblinalthough please not here.Sep 16 20:28
schestowitzI think I canSep 16 20:28
schestowitzProbably one of those who do the most /real/ workSep 16 20:28
_goblinI'll have to give you some contact details for me before I can see you up in can then confirm Im not a nut!Sep 16 20:29
DaemonFCschestowitz: You don't see Microsoft buying up patents that could be used against WindowsSep 16 20:29
DaemonFCeven though they know they are out there and could be used against themSep 16 20:29
schestowitzryan: 16 20:29
DaemonFCthey don't want to declare open season on WindowsSep 16 20:29
DaemonFCOIN is fucking stupidSep 16 20:29
DaemonFCspyware?Sep 16 20:30
schestowitz_goblin: you're with the MI5, aren't you?Sep 16 20:31
DaemonFC"Sears paid some visitors to and $10 to participate in a scheme to monitor their browsing via "research software"."Sep 16 20:31
DaemonFCniceSep 16 20:31
schestowitzSFLC thanked OINSep 16 20:31
schestowitzSo I'm OK with what OIN did, just not in generalSep 16 20:31
DaemonFCschestowitz: I'll pay you $10 if you let me snoop on everything you do and install a keylogger so I can jsut jot down all your other transactions with my comeptitors....Sep 16 20:31
DaemonFCyeahSep 16 20:31
DaemonFC*competitorsSep 16 20:31
DaemonFCschestowitz: 16 20:32
DaemonFCmy favorite Sears incidentSep 16 20:32
schestowitzThey sold spire back in the days, no?Sep 16 20:34
fewaThe threat of patent Armageddon is a real oneSep 16 20:34
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[trmanco] 30 CSS Best Practices for Beginners: 16 20:34
DaemonFCschestowitz: Freespire PCs?Sep 16 20:35
DaemonFCyesSep 16 20:35
DaemonFCLinspire in sheep's clothingSep 16 20:35
schestowitzNoSep 16 20:35
schestowitz'LinspireSep 16 20:35
schestowitzAround 2006Sep 16 20:35
schestowitzAnyway...Sep 16 20:35
DaemonFCschestowitz: They never sold Linspire as such, just FreespireSep 16 20:35
schestowitzI know little about Sears.Sep 16 20:35
fewaIt would be suicide for patent law a some patent-based businesses.Sep 16 20:36
fewano?Sep 16 20:36
_goblinschestowitz: No -lolSep 16 20:36
schestowitzSpire is dead, long die linspireSep 16 20:36
tessier,2933,541221,00.html?test=latestnewsSep 16 20:36
DaemonFCschestowitz: There was a point where Sears was the Wal-Mart of its time, I mean in size, not crappy qualitySep 16 20:36
tessierROFLSep 16 20:36
schestowitzXandros trashed itSep 16 20:36
schestowitzTHe brand, CNR, everythingSep 16 20:36
fewaBut it could be messySep 16 20:36
schestowitzTurbolinux is in the same holeSep 16 20:36
DaemonFCXandros bought them to shut them downSep 16 20:36
schestowitzThis leaves the 'good' player in the sameSep 16 20:37
schestowitzThose who don't pay MicrosoftSep 16 20:37
DaemonFCprobably paid a penny or two on the dollar for themSep 16 20:37
schestowitztessier: yeah, I posted about this in IRC at the timeSep 16 20:37
schestowitzWe had a laugh over itSep 16 20:37
tessierI missed it. Funny stuff.Sep 16 20:37
schestowitzThere's similar ebay stuffSep 16 20:38
schestowitzAnd CraigslistSep 16 20:38
schestowitzBut that's where it's easier to 'inject'Sep 16 20:38
DaemonFCCraigslist makes it harder for the local cops to arrest prostitutesSep 16 20:39
DaemonFCof course they hate anything that makes their job harderSep 16 20:40
fewa?Sep 16 20:40
fewao i cSep 16 20:40
_goblinanyone see the latest episode of Click?Sep 16 20:40
_goblinIll take that as a no then.Sep 16 20:41
schestowitz Bed sharing 'bad for your health' < ?Sep 16 20:41
_goblinthere was a new mini-mini netbook from Japan running Ubuntu....not much bigger than an ipod..Sep 16 20:41
DaemonFCif they see prostitution going on out in the open, it's easy to arrest peopleSep 16 20:41
_goblin*iphoneSep 16 20:41
schestowitz_goblin: it's for WIndows usersSep 16 20:41
DaemonFCif you obfuscate your Craigslist ad and don't do anything outside of private property, it becoems almost impossible to prosecuteSep 16 20:41
schestowitzWhere computer means "Windows" and free means "shareware"Sep 16 20:42
_goblinI thought it was running Ubuntu....Sep 16 20:42
schestowitzMostly irrelevant to Mac/UNIX and GNU/Linux usersSep 16 20:42
_goblinI'm sure that bloke said it was running Ubuntu....Sep 16 20:42
fewaHAHA, pretty soon they will announce that having sex through a sheet with a hole promotes moralitySep 16 20:42
schestowitz_goblin: I'm surprised they wrote about the Sharp gadgetSep 16 20:42
DaemonFCfewa: Only religious people ever split the hair that thinSep 16 20:42
schestowitzIt does not run the BBC's 'approved' OSSep 16 20:42
_goblintrueSep 16 20:43
_goblinthe mentioning of "free software" is often skimmed over.Sep 16 20:43
fewa"Before the Victorian era it was not uncommon for married couples to sleep apart. In ancient Rome, the marital bed was a place for sexual congress but not for sleeping."Sep 16 20:43
schestowitzFreedom is bad for you _goblinSep 16 20:43
fewahmm, if that's true its interestingSep 16 20:43
schestowitzConsumerism is goodSep 16 20:43
schestowitzJust STFU and buy buy butSep 16 20:43
schestowitzfewa: how do you know how many times they had intercourse? Kid count.Sep 16 20:44
schestowitzNever mind post-impregnation intercourseSep 16 20:44
schestowitzThe contraception of abstinenceSep 16 20:45
DaemonFCschestowitz: Contraception is bad, mmmk?Sep 16 20:45
DaemonFCThere always has to be "one more of us than them"Sep 16 20:45
_goblinWhat do you think the odds are that Icaza gets the Microsoft Opensource Czar job.....?Sep 16 20:46
DaemonFCin Islam and Christianity especiallySep 16 20:46
_goblinI'd say pretty good.Sep 16 20:46
schestowitz_goblin: would not be shockingSep 16 20:46
_goblinIll tell you who I think has gone relatively silent....Jo Shields....Sep 16 20:46
schestowitzIt would be good for BNSep 16 20:47
schestowitzIt would help show how close Novell and MS really areSep 16 20:47
schestowitz_goblin: no, he trolled me todaySep 16 20:47
_goblinah....I thought he had turned over a new leaf.Sep 16 20:47
schestowitz "@migueldeicaza Sam Varghese has the journalistic standards of Glenn Schestowitz. Consider a hit piece as a badge of honour." 16 20:47
schestowitzTHey take the piss out of SamSep 16 20:47
schestowitzCause of that articleSep 16 20:47
schestowitz_goblin: he didSep 16 20:48
schestowitzHe uses that leaf to wipe miguels's behind, IMHOSep 16 20:48
Diablo-D3who the hell is glenn schestowitz?Sep 16 20:48
schestowitzRather, who is Glenn?Sep 16 20:48
schestowitzHe compares me to some GLenn.Sep 16 20:48
schestowitzWichita Lineman?Sep 16 20:49
schestowitzNot beck!!!!1Sep 16 20:49
Diablo-D3wow, you've been relegated to entertainer status, schestowitzSep 16 20:49
Diablo-D3oh snapSep 16 20:49
*_Hicham_ (n=hicham@ has joined #boycottnovellSep 16 20:50
_Hicham_Hi everybody !Sep 16 20:51
_Hicham_senior schestowitz : howdy ?Sep 16 20:51
schestowitzLegal circus: Jurors Required To Sign Promises Not To Google Details Of Case < >Sep 16 20:51
schestowitz_Hicham_: welcome to the familySep 16 20:51
schestowitzWhat will you drink?Sep 16 20:51
schestowitzWe ran out of cyanide, but there's still arsenicSep 16 20:52
schestowitz:-pSep 16 20:52
_Hicham_what cyanide or arsenic ?Sep 16 20:53
_Hicham_*why ?Sep 16 20:56
schestowitz_Hicham_: jokeSep 16 20:58
*schestowitz hands over non-alcoholic digital beverage to _Hicham_Sep 16 20:59
_Hicham_plz don't mix it with MonoSep 16 20:59
_Hicham_I am allergic to Mono productsSep 16 20:59
schestowitzNo chopped monkeys insideSep 16 21:00
schestowitzMay contain bananas thoughSep 16 21:00
schestowitzYum!Sep 16 21:00
trmanco 16 21:00
schestowitztrmanco: does this game run on Vista 7?Sep 16 21:01
trmancoyeahSep 16 21:01
trmancothey have solitaireSep 16 21:01
trmancoit's a jokeSep 16 21:01
schestowitzI know.Sep 16 21:03
schestowitzFox Paid $60k For Video Footage Of Madoff On A Yacht... And Still Gets Sued For Copyright Infringement < >Sep 16 21:10
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[trmanco] Shh!!! HP sneaks Linux in on new laptops: 16 21:21
schestowitzMore barriers for Microhoo! 16 21:23
trmanco"Linux players represent about 5% of the QuakeLive population, which is in line with the company's previous releases. Nothing new there, releasing Linux versions has always been a matter of higher code quality, good software architecture, and technical interest for the platform."Sep 16 21:23
trmancobaamSep 16 21:23
Diablo-D3quakelive sucks, thoughSep 16 21:24
Diablo-D3if it crashes, it takes my browser with it.Sep 16 21:24
Diablo-D3nothxSep 16 21:24
trmanconot reallySep 16 21:24
trmanco 16 21:24
trmancoin my experience it's actually the oppositeSep 16 21:25
trmancoif the browser crashes it takes away the game with itSep 16 21:25
trmanco:-PSep 16 21:25
Diablo-D3trmanco: you do realize I know lord havoc, right?Sep 16 21:25
trmancodon't know what lord havoc isSep 16 21:25
*Diablo-D3 faceplamsSep 16 21:25
Diablo-D3hes the guy, among other thing, that ported quakelive to linuxSep 16 21:26
trmancothat's not his real name, is it?Sep 16 21:26
Diablo-D3obviously no.Sep 16 21:26
trmancoso, and you point is?Sep 16 21:27
Diablo-D3my point is dont start a pissing contest with me.Sep 16 21:27
Diablo-D3quakelive crashes, it takes my browser with it. this is a known issue.Sep 16 21:27
trmancowhat I was trying to say, is that quakelive hasn't crashed on meSep 16 21:28
trmancoso farSep 16 21:28
trmancobut the browser already hasSep 16 21:28
Diablo-D3ahhSep 16 21:28
Diablo-D3its crashed on me and its reproducableSep 16 21:28
trmancothe only problem I have is the stupid crackling soundSep 16 21:29
schestowitztrmanco: old newSep 16 21:29
schestowitzAnd yeah, other game makers claim high market share for the GNUSep 16 21:29
schestowitzNot surprisingSep 16 21:29
trmancoI'm sure you have that problem too, no?Sep 16 21:29
Diablo-D3trmanco: quakelive is almost the same code as ioquake3, btwSep 16 21:29
schestowitzDiablo-D3: be polite, pleaseSep 16 21:29
schestowitzI found a job for Miguel.: 16 21:32
trmancoDiablo-D3: I wonder if it was tough to port quakelive to linuxSep 16 21:32
Diablo-D3trmanco: it wasnt since it basically recycles quake3 codeSep 16 21:33
Diablo-D3it was usual nsplugin on linux issues that caused more problems than anything elseSep 16 21:33
trmancohmmmSep 16 21:33
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] @ml2mst NO, don't click the thing! It's a SPAM chain that hit me. I didn't send that message to ANY of my followers. It's a rogue site.Sep 16 21:37
schestowitzI listened to FLOSS Weekly ep 1 todaySep 16 21:37
schestowitzWith CdibonaSep 16 21:38
schestowitzThey speak of game engines thereSep 16 21:38
schestowitzwallclimber has just mailed me the doc~!Sep 16 21:38
wallclimberYes she did!Sep 16 21:38
fewaschestowitz, how does it send the email?Sep 16 21:38
Diablo-D3trmanco: quake3 is well understood by nowSep 16 21:38
schestowitzfewa: it hooks into my Twitter accountSep 16 21:38
wallclimberdid i mail the right one?Sep 16 21:39
schestowitzThen it spams everyone that follows meSep 16 21:39
fewaahh spam chain i cSep 16 21:39
schestowitzI lost follower cause of those thugsSep 16 21:39
fewadeauthorize itSep 16 21:39
schestowitzwallclimber: yesSep 16 21:39
schestowitzI just got a popup about it, along other messagesSep 16 21:39
schestowitzI'll leave it unread for another few daysSep 16 21:39
wallclimber:)Sep 16 21:40
schestowitzfewa: if someone responds to that spam that was sent 'from my account' that in turn spams all the followers of the next victimSep 16 21:40
schestowitzI got hit by a Red Hat guy from SingaporeSep 16 21:40
schestowitzI don't think he's with Red HatSep 16 21:40
schestowitzThis also spammed some Microsoft folks that follow usSep 16 21:41
schestowitzVery weirdSep 16 21:41
schestowitzAnd they too could fall preySep 16 21:41
_goblinI didnt receive any spam...Sep 16 21:42
schestowitz_goblin: that's good to hear, but I think the thing hits every follower without exceptionSep 16 21:44
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[trmanco] Google Tops Bing, Yahoo In Bug Battle: 16 21:44
schestowitzI know others who were preySep 16 21:44
schestowitzIt ruined my morningSep 16 21:44
fewamodern chain mailSep 16 21:45
fewadoesn't even require someone to forward, it just hijacks your permissionsSep 16 21:45
schestowitzYesSep 16 21:48
schestowitzI was stunned Twitter allows thisSep 16 21:48
DaemonFCschestowitz: the new Firefox package in Ubuntu cut out a lot of stupid GNOME dependenciesSep 16 21:48
schestowitzYou click some button, say OK and BANGSep 16 21:48
schestowitzHundreds of people receive the same button trapSep 16 21:48
DaemonFCinstead of bringing in 96 packages, it now brings in 12Sep 16 21:48
fewaYou should report it to twitterSep 16 21:48
fewaas its lying to peopleSep 16 21:49
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[trmanco] I Feel the Need for Speed: Linux File System Throughput Performance, Part 1: 16 21:49
DaemonFCTwitter won't do anything about itSep 16 21:50
schestowitzfewa: it has been reported by manuySep 16 21:50
schestowitzBut too lateSep 16 21:50
schestowitzDamage was doneSep 16 21:50
schestowitzDespatch was immediately by E-mail, with URL leading to third partySep 16 21:50
schestowitzwallclimber: thanks a lot!Sep 16 21:50
schestowitzGreat stuffSep 16 21:50
fewaThats why you don't hand away creds to 33rd partiesSep 16 21:51
schestowitzThat last one was cited widely. We don't get many comments cause people must sign up.Sep 16 21:51
schestowitzfewa: yeahSep 16 21:51
schestowitz32 parties is OKSep 16 21:51
schestowitzThat's where you keep track of thingSep 16 21:51
fewa:PSep 16 21:51
schestowitz33 is where people become hard to trustSep 16 21:51
schestowitzTrilateral Commission..Sep 16 21:52
schestowitzBTW...Sep 16 21:52
schestowitzI was wonderingSep 16 21:52
schestowitzWhere is the wealth of the Rothschild dynasty today?Sep 16 21:52
schestowitzThey are so secretive you can hardly get any information about themSep 16 21:52
schestowitzIt's like they live in bunkersSep 16 21:52
*_Hicham_ has quit (Remote closed the connection)Sep 16 21:52
schestowitzTutorial Tuesday: GNOME Hotkeys 16 21:55
DaemonFCGNOME Hotkey cheat sheet: Alt+ F1, removed because it may confuse users and was generally unhelpful, Alt+F2, removed because it may confuse users, Alt+F3, removed because it may confuse users, Alt+F4, removed because users were reportedly confused about where their open windows wentSep 16 21:57
DaemonFCWe hope this helped, stay tuned for "Encoding MP3s with GNOME"Sep 16 21:58
DaemonFC"any bitrate you want as long as it's CBR 128"Sep 16 21:58
twitterI wonder what Steve Ballmer and the crew in Redmond are going to do for Software Freedom Day.Sep 16 22:00
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[_goblin] Just been running Absolute 13.0.1 (slackware) very impressed so far...sysadmin tools "out of the box" are very useful too! #linux #fossSep 16 22:01
DaemonFCtwitter: GNOME doesn't belong under the category of software freedom for a number of reasonsSep 16 22:01
wallclimbertwitter, Steve B will probably do a dance and stomp on a netbookSep 16 22:02
DaemonFCin a lot of ways, Windows is less constraining to the user than GNOMESep 16 22:02
twitterheh, I don't follow twitter ->  schestowitz: I was stunned Twitter allows thisSep 16 22:02
DaemonFCI really wish the major distributions would just throw them under the bus already and work on KDESep 16 22:02
twitterBallmer SMASH netbookSep 16 22:03
twitterbblSep 16 22:03
*cubezzz points out anyone can recompile gnome, they can't recompile dozeSep 16 22:08
cubezzzplus you can use lame at the command lineSep 16 22:09
cubezzze.g. lame audio.wav -b 320 audio.mp3Sep 16 22:09
schestowitzI didn't manage to find that Ballmer video that had vanishedSep 16 22:13
schestowitzI did try looking some more, in vainSep 16 22:13
schestowitzI'll do some news links now...Sep 16 22:14
*Lns has quit (Remote closed the connection)Sep 16 22:18
DaemonFCcubezzz: You can use LAME on the command line on any systemSep 16 22:21
DaemonFCit's a fallback for a failed GUI in GNOMESep 16 22:21
_goblinAnyone here used Absolute ...? Very impressive distro...slackware derived...Sep 16 22:23
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[_goblin] Monty still hasn't printed my replies :( #codeplex #fossSep 16 22:23
DaemonFC 16 22:24
DaemonFClmaoSep 16 22:24
schestowitz_goblin: it looks OKSep 16 22:26
schestowitzNothing exciting though. Just Slack*Sep 16 22:26
_goblinJust slack...blasphemy I tell you......burn him!.....witch!Sep 16 22:27
schestowitzMeh.Sep 16 22:27
_goblinits got a nice set of benchmarks via Hardinfo 0.5.1Sep 16 22:28
_goblinvery handySep 16 22:28
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] #Windows #Developer Moves to #GNU #Linux and Loves It 16 22:29
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_goblinIve found a good analysis of Codeplex....highlighted by a Microsoft twitterer.....shame that the good analysis has been written by a Microsoft MVP......Sep 16 22:30
_goblinso it seems that the only ones who praise it are those locked into MS in some way........surprise surprise.Sep 16 22:30
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] More Information About Massive Win for #Linux at #HP 16 22:31
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] #LCA2010 ( Schedule is Published 16 22:34
*jono (n=ubuntu@ubuntu/member/jono) has joined #boycottnovellSep 16 22:35
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] #GNU #Linux Desktops Suitable for Many, Including Large Businesses 16 22:39
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*ThistleWeb (n=gordon@unaffiliated/thistleweb) has joined #boycottnovellSep 16 22:43
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] #Torvalds Explains #EFI and #BIOS #linuxSep 16 22:43
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] #Mandriva to be at IT Event #Netbook World Summit 2009 ( #Paris ) 16 22:51
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] #Oracle Delivers Another #RedHat Bar #Trademarks, #BerkeleyDB Update ...Sep 16 22:54
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] #Ubuntu #Launchpad Changes, New Resources for Help and #Artwork 16 22:56
schestowitz_goblin: indeedSep 16 22:57
schestowitzSelf gratificationSep 16 22:58
DaemonFCwhen I am king, Christian youth groups will be forced to eat all remaining purity ringsSep 16 23:02
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] New #Linux #Platform for Phones: #Donut 16 23:07
_goblingnSep 16 23:08
*_goblin has quit ("Ex-Chat")Sep 16 23:08
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] #Crunchbang Goes for the #Sub-notebooks 16 23:09
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[trmanco] The UNIX Guru`s view of Sex: unzip; strip; touch; finger; mount; fsck; more; yes; umount; sleepSep 16 23:12
*PetoKraus has quit ("Leaving")Sep 16 23:20
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-BNc/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] #IntellectualMonopolies Go Insane with #WIPO #moneyispower #corruptionSep 16 23:25
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[thistleweb] New Blog Post - And The Royal Mail Staff Want Public Sympathy? 16 23:31
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] Web #Censorship in #Denmark 16 23:31
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] #gNewSense Tosses #Mono to the #Bitbucket 16 23:33
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] #Microsoft Pulls the Plug on #Windows #Server 2003 SPs 16 23:35
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[davidgerard] NotN: Biotech stocks plummet in wake of public health policies that favor humans 16 23:49
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[trmanco] Warning: You have moved the mouse. Windows will reboot now to make the change permanentSep 16 23:59

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