IRC: #boycottnovell @ FreeNode: September 18th, 2009

fewa
schestowitz	Good pic?	Sep 18 00:03
schestowitz	It's animal pr0n	Sep 18 00:03
schestowitz	Nakes bug and lizard	Sep 18 00:03
schestowitz	*naked	Sep 18 00:03
cubezzz	"thick application" there's a term I never saw before	Sep 18 00:05
cubezzz	doing a survey on software development	Sep 18 00:06
Diablo-D3	as opposed to thin application	Sep 18 00:07
cubezzz	do you develop for Flash, AIR or Silverlight?	Sep 18 00:07
cubezzz	blech :)	Sep 18 00:07
schestowitz	http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1SiVasR2Gzo&feature=PlayList&p=A3BD2524FE99BD4D&index=0	Sep 18 00:07
Diablo-D3	thin applications == webapp, flash on the desktop, silverlight on the desktop, etc	Sep 18 00:07
*cubezzz nods		Sep 18 00:07
Diablo-D3	I actually like thin application style development for a lot of apps	Sep 18 00:07
cubezzz	I wonder what "AIR" is though	Sep 18 00:08
Diablo-D3	flash on the desktop	Sep 18 00:08
Diablo-D3	its a stand alone runtime for development on flash-like applications	Sep 18 00:08
Diablo-D3	silverlight 3 offline apps were created in response to this	Sep 18 00:09
Diablo-D3	and javafx is in response to that too	Sep 18 00:09
Diablo-D3	cubezzz: air basically inverts the browser model	Sep 18 00:09
Diablo-D3	instead of a browser visiting a website, you have browser-like components that exist just to run and display the application	Sep 18 00:09
Diablo-D3	its actually rather useful for simple apps	Sep 18 00:10
Diablo-D3	most of those flash games should have been coded as air apps instead	Sep 18 00:10
cubezzz	hmmm	Sep 18 00:10
Diablo-D3	problem is, underneath, you're still using flash techs	Sep 18 00:11
Diablo-D3	so its kind of retarded	Sep 18 00:11
cubezzz	Diablo-D3, yeah, I'm not too fond of flash	Sep 18 00:11
Diablo-D3	I don't like flash because its rather inferior to modern usage of javascript and css	Sep 18 00:11
Diablo-D3	everything they can do I can do better	Sep 18 00:11
Diablo-D3	and the actual heavy shit that some games do should be done with java anyhow	Sep 18 00:11
Diablo-D3	flash doesn't quite fit anywhere	Sep 18 00:12
Diablo-D3	its not good for heavy apps, its not good for enhancing websites	Sep 18 00:12
Diablo-D3	java is good for all your heavy app needs, ajaxian modern website design is good for all your website needs	Sep 18 00:13
cubezzz	yeah, I guess on linux end there's just java	Sep 18 00:14
Diablo-D3	well, mono will eventually have silverlight 3 offline apps, but...	Sep 18 00:14
Diablo-D3	who the fuck wants to use c#	Sep 18 00:14
Diablo-D3	its Java Done Wrong (tm)	Sep 18 00:14
cubezzz	this survey refers to "Rich Internet Applications"	Sep 18 00:14
cubezzz	do the microsoft guys use Java much?	Sep 18 00:15
Diablo-D3	microsoft uses java in the form of mono	Sep 18 00:15
Diablo-D3	<Diablo-D3> its Java Done Wrong (tm)	Sep 18 00:15
Diablo-D3	er, sorry, in the form of .net	Sep 18 00:15
Diablo-D3	RIA == air, javafx, silverlight	Sep 18 00:15
Diablo-D3	you know whats kind of funny though?	Sep 18 00:16
Diablo-D3	xulrunner could have been an ria framework	Sep 18 00:16
_goblin	lol...just been reading the boycott-boys site.........	Sep 18 00:16
Diablo-D3	but its not enough	Sep 18 00:16
Diablo-D3	you could make a nice ria framework on top of xulrunner	Sep 18 00:16
Diablo-D3	but its kind of pointless	Sep 18 00:16
cubezzz	at least java is quasi-universal	Sep 18 00:16
Diablo-D3	AIR got it right by using webkit for the html rendering needs	Sep 18 00:16
Diablo-D3	btw, I'm aware of mozilla prism (a xulrunner-based ria framework), I like to pretend it doesnt exist	Sep 18 00:17
cubezzz	Can one do AIR on Linux?	Sep 18 00:18
Diablo-D3	maaaaybe	Sep 18 00:19
Diablo-D3	but you'd essentially be looking at the shit flash already does	Sep 18 00:19
Diablo-D3	flash on linux is horrid	Sep 18 00:19
trmanco	it's slow	Sep 18 00:19
trmanco	as all flash is	Sep 18 00:19
Diablo-D3	trmanco: eh	Sep 18 00:20
Diablo-D3	flash is really fast on linux	Sep 18 00:20
Diablo-D3	you know why?	Sep 18 00:20
trmanco	fast?	Sep 18 00:20
Diablo-D3	er on windows	Sep 18 00:20
Diablo-D3	its fast on windows, you know why?	Sep 18 00:20
trmanco	why is that?	Sep 18 00:20
Diablo-D3	IT CAN HARDWARE ACCELERATE BLITS	Sep 18 00:20
cubezzz	enlighten us :)	Sep 18 00:20
trmanco	we can do that in ubuntu too	Sep 18 00:20
*gargoyle-grin (n=randerso@gentoo/contributor/gargoyle-grin) has left #boycottnovell		Sep 18 00:20
Diablo-D3	fucking goddamn idiotic fucking douchebag linux dev for flash is a fucking moron	Sep 18 00:20
trmanco	but you will have to hack on a hidden option	Sep 18 00:20
Diablo-D3	on a daily basis he reminds me how much I hate him.	Sep 18 00:21
trmanco	don't call him that	Sep 18 00:21
trmanco	I'm sure he works hard	Sep 18 00:21
cubezzz	hate who Diablo-D3?	Sep 18 00:21
cubezzz	the Adobe devs?	Sep 18 00:21
Diablo-D3	cubezzz: the douche adobe hired to do the linux plugin port	Sep 18 00:21
Diablo-D3	trmanco: nope, he doesnt	Sep 18 00:21
Diablo-D3	trmanco: he bitches on his blog "well, flash would do this, but I dont think X can do that" then 50 people comment on his blog on how exactly to do what he wants correctly, AND HE DOESNT DO IT	Sep 18 00:22
trmanco	there was something a couple of week ago on flash and optimizing performance	Sep 18 00:22
trmanco	oh	Sep 18 00:22
trmanco	I don't read his blog	Sep 18 00:22
cubezzz	I'm not too happy with flash either	Sep 18 00:22
cubezzz	all this streaming video on flash so no one can record obviously	Sep 18 00:23
Diablo-D3	trmanco: basically, it wont enable hardware acceleration of fullscreen unless specific requirements are met	Sep 18 00:23
Diablo-D3	those requirements have nothing to do with the issue at hand	Sep 18 00:23
Diablo-D3	and the way hes coded it it'll never work on any existing platform	Sep 18 00:23
Diablo-D3	not dri, not nvidia, not fglrx	Sep 18 00:23
Diablo-D3	and it wont work if compiz is enabled, even though compiz doesnt effect it (he cites a bug that was fixed about 5 years ago)	Sep 18 00:23
cubezzz	well that does explain things	Sep 18 00:26
trmanco	interesting	Sep 18 00:26
*vermilion has quit ()		Sep 18 00:27
Diablo-D3	yeah, the guys a fucking idiot	Sep 18 00:27
Diablo-D3	especially when we state "but gnash does this completely fine"	Sep 18 00:27
Diablo-D3	gnash == the foss flash plugin	Sep 18 00:27
cubezzz	I've heard of it	Sep 18 00:28
Diablo-D3	the only reason I dont use it is because its missing a lot of shit new flash shit uses	Sep 18 00:28
Diablo-D3	but the underlying design is far superior to what adobe uses	Sep 18 00:28
cubezzz	is gnash good enough for using youtube?	Sep 18 00:29
cubezzz	actually one can just dload the flv video and play it on mplayer	Sep 18 00:32
*PeterKraus has quit ("Leaving")		Sep 18 00:37
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[_goblin] Moshe Goldfarb cola troll -check him out on comp.alt.linux.advocacy he has some great "evidence" to share with you. LOL. #microsoft #windows		Sep 18 00:37
schestowitz	http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N1w7KnCrMyI&feature=related	Sep 18 00:40
cubezzz	python script ftw	Sep 18 00:41
Diablo-D3	cubezzz: no	Sep 18 00:41
Diablo-D3	gnash cant do h264 in videos yet, for one	Sep 18 00:41
Diablo-D3	it cant do google finance's graphs yet either	Sep 18 00:42
*Balrog_ (n=Balrog@pool-173-59-73-156.phlapa.east.verizon.net) has joined #boycottnovell		Sep 18 00:42
cubezzz	these surveys are saying more open source questions now	Sep 18 00:43
cubezzz	that's a good sign	Sep 18 00:43
Diablo-D3	yes, microsoft is taking the competition seriously now :D	Sep 18 00:43
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[davidgerard] changes to #wikipedia reference tags http://is.gd/3omAB holy shit, wikitext might become editable again		Sep 18 00:44
cubezzz	well it seems to have gone from "Linux is a cancer" to "let's inter-operate"	Sep 18 00:46
schestowitz	Glenn Beck Refers to Obama as Colorless or White < http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=weUZsIjC7UU&feature=channel >	Sep 18 00:48
cubezzz	ok, now their asking my opinion of microsoft :)	Sep 18 00:48
cubezzz	they're	Sep 18 00:49
_goblin	cubezzz: Its quite tragic to see Microsoft having to grovel to the Opensource community to "get another chance"	Sep 18 00:49
cubezzz	I'm going to put "very unfavourable" :-0	Sep 18 00:49
cubezzz	it would be interesting to know what the hobbyist programmers are using	Sep 18 00:50
_goblin	cubezzz: I personally have no feelings left for Microsoft, they burned me with Vista, they took my money whilst convincing me any problems were my fault and worse than that when I finally break free I am insulted and trolled by their advocates....thats about as polite as I can be about Microsoft.	Sep 18 00:51
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cubezzz	you have feelings, but they're probably not positive :)	Sep 18 00:52
cubezzz	_goblin, some of the people who are trolling I don't think they are microsoft "people" as in microsoft employees	Sep 18 00:53
schestowitz	http://www.telegraph.co.uk/health/healthnews/6132718/Men-lose-their-minds-speaking-to-pretty-women.html	Sep 18 00:53
_goblin	cubezzz: I agree completely.....	Sep 18 00:53
cubezzz	those people may just be unknowledgeable	Sep 18 00:53
cubezzz	but I've talked to a few microsoft people, and there are a few who seemed reasonable enough	Sep 18 00:54
schestowitz	Ok, i'm bored. gn	Sep 18 00:54
_goblin	cubezzz: I think they are split into three categories, one of which being bored genuine trolls, one being people with a financial interest in the proprietary model and or Microsoft and the third being on the payroll, although that is my opinion....	Sep 18 00:54
_goblin	gn	Sep 18 00:54
cubezzz	later	Sep 18 00:54
*schestowitz gives channel operator status to cubezzz		Sep 18 00:54
_goblin	youre da man cubezzz!	Sep 18 00:54
cubezzz	w00ts	Sep 18 00:54
cubezzz	one of my friends wants to become microsoft employed	Sep 18 00:55
cubezzz	but I don't argue with him, he just wants a job	Sep 18 00:55
_goblin	thats fair enough....	Sep 18 00:56
_goblin	you can't blame people for wanting to earn a living.	Sep 18 00:56
cubezzz	we were commodore bros in the old days :)	Sep 18 00:56
_goblin	hey....Commodore! Amiga or 64?	Sep 18 00:56
_goblin	or 128	Sep 18 00:56
cubezzz	everything except plus4	Sep 18 00:56
_goblin	ah	Sep 18 00:57
_goblin	a500 for me, before that I was a spectrum boy!	Sep 18 00:57
_goblin	and before that....zx81	Sep 18 00:57
cubezzz	you are still in UK _goblin?	Sep 18 00:58
_goblin	yep	Sep 18 00:58
_goblin	SE about 30miles from London	Sep 18 00:58
_goblin	nr Luton.	Sep 18 00:58
cubezzz	I don't think I ever saw Spectrum over here	Sep 18 00:58
_goblin	I think it was big in the UK...but then so was the C64...	Sep 18 00:59
_goblin	where you from?	Sep 18 00:59
cubezzz	you remember Zap magazine?	Sep 18 00:59
_goblin	yep	Sep 18 00:59
cubezzz	I'm in Oshawa Ontario, close to Toronto	Sep 18 00:59
cubezzz	we had commodore in the schools for a while here	Sep 18 01:00
cubezzz	of course it's all gone now	Sep 18 01:00
_goblin	Its a shame the Amiga legacy never continued....the A4000 was a damn nice piece of kit...	Sep 18 01:01
cubezzz	yeah, I see them on ebay now and then	Sep 18 01:01
_goblin	and its AGA chipset had 2d sorted....	Sep 18 01:01
cubezzz	Linux on Amiga 4000 would be cool :)	Sep 18 01:01
_goblin	I have to be content with Amiga on Linux nowadays (since my a1200 broke)	Sep 18 01:02
cubezzz	not sure what my opinion is on Oracle, I'll put "not sure"	Sep 18 01:02
cubezzz	_goblin, you still using Amiga?	Sep 18 01:02
_goblin	sort of...	Sep 18 01:02
_goblin	hobbyist demo scene stuff	Sep 18 01:02
_goblin	devpac 2 - my package of choice.	Sep 18 01:03
cubezzz	for hobby stuff I hack around on this old zaurus	Sep 18 01:03
_goblin	assembly dev was so much simpler in those days....	Sep 18 01:04
_goblin	and now as I always do I start to mourn "the good old days"	Sep 18 01:04
_goblin	....sob....	Sep 18 01:04
_goblin	Fairlight, RSI, Skidrow, Cryonics....	Sep 18 01:04
_goblin	Budbrain......	Sep 18 01:05
cubezzz	well c64 was easy to get into	Sep 18 01:05
cubezzz	Amiga was harder, and now.... things are pretty complicated	Sep 18 01:05
ThistleWeb	I believe the spectrum was pretty much a UK thing	Sep 18 01:05
ThistleWeb	all rubber keys and logical "j is short for Load"	Sep 18 01:06
ThistleWeb	where the L key would make too much sense	Sep 18 01:06
_goblin	and " was located on the P key.....	Sep 18 01:06
cubezzz	load "$",8 ;-)	Sep 18 01:06
_goblin	"A" key = "new" (soft reset)	Sep 18 01:06
_goblin	rem	Sep 18 01:07
_goblin	line numbers	Sep 18 01:07
_goblin	changing the cursor to an "E"	Sep 18 01:07
_goblin	ah the memories....	Sep 18 01:07
cubezzz	the original abasic for amiga had line numbers	Sep 18 01:07
ThistleWeb	all my mates had either spectrums or c64's....I got an amstrad 6128....the one with the dic drive	Sep 18 01:07
ThistleWeb	disc*	Sep 18 01:07
_goblin	yes but not like this....it wasn't an editor environment like Amiga basic....	Sep 18 01:07
cubezzz	I did the C thing on Amiga, didn't even use the basic stuff	Sep 18 01:08
ThistleWeb	all because my parents didnt want me using the main TV to play games and they didnt want me to have a TV in my bedroom	Sep 18 01:08
_goblin	if you wanted to go back and edit a line you had to..............actually what did you have to do? Ive forgotten...	Sep 18 01:08
_goblin	Thistleweb: Can you remember how you edited a line number in spectrum BASIC?	Sep 18 01:08
cubezzz	then you bought a 1701 monitor, that was living :)	Sep 18 01:08
ThistleWeb	_goblin: I never tried any of that stuff, I was simply a gamer	Sep 18 01:10
_goblin	cubezzz: I bet you never saw the spectrum thermal printer.....the most useless printer in the galaxy...printed on paper the width of toilet roll.	Sep 18 01:10
cubezzz	_goblin, commodore had one of those too	Sep 18 01:10
cubezzz	no, I never saw a sepctrum thermal printer, you are right :)	Sep 18 01:10
cubezzz	spectrum	Sep 18 01:10
_goblin	cubezzz: and the light pen which was laggier than Vista.......	Sep 18 01:11
ThistleWeb	I did try to type in a couple of smaller games from magazines but they never worked	Sep 18 01:11
cubezzz	thermal printers are still in use	Sep 18 01:11
_goblin	thistleweb: yep I remember those......	Sep 18 01:11
cubezzz	at grocery stores	Sep 18 01:11
ThistleWeb	_goblin: do you remember IK+ on the amiga?	Sep 18 01:11
ThistleWeb	that was awesome	Sep 18 01:11
_goblin	oh yes	Sep 18 01:11
cubezzz	I wrote a cube program for every computer I owned naturally :)	Sep 18 01:11
ThistleWeb	I loved that game	Sep 18 01:11
_goblin	Internation Karate	Sep 18 01:11
ThistleWeb	yep	Sep 18 01:11
ThistleWeb	3 fighters	Sep 18 01:11
_goblin	and Ye Ar Kung FU on the speccy...	Sep 18 01:12
ThistleWeb	very fast moving	Sep 18 01:12
cubezzz	how about Impossible Mission?	Sep 18 01:12
_goblin	yeah......	Sep 18 01:12
_goblin	and the best gfx/sfx in an Amiga game (at the time)....Shadow of the beast.	Sep 18 01:12
_goblin	Cubezzz: I hope you are using E-UAE....	Sep 18 01:13
ThistleWeb	if I remember right there was some cheat that you could do to make you're opponants belt fail and his trousers drop, forcing him to bend down and pull them back up, and giving you a stationary traget to hit	Sep 18 01:13
_goblin	lol....	Sep 18 01:13
cubezzz	UAE? Yes, I have it	Sep 18 01:14
cubezzz	my amiga disks went bad on me though	Sep 18 01:14
cubezzz	so I have to type in all my source code and recompile :-/	Sep 18 01:14
_goblin	remember AMOS.....?	Sep 18 01:15
_goblin	God we hated AMOS users........	Sep 18 01:15
_goblin	apparently that matured into Darkbasic on the PC.	Sep 18 01:15
ThistleWeb	other than IK+ the only real standout for me during my admittedly short amiga time was Microprose Grand Prix	Sep 18 01:15
cubezzz	I remember super snapshot, but that was c64	Sep 18 01:15
ThistleWeb	drop the detail level right down and that game flew	Sep 18 01:16
_goblin	I had a long affair with the AGA version of Frontier.....	Sep 18 01:16
_goblin	and of course Dungeon Master	Sep 18 01:16
cubezzz	_goblin, there is still http://softhut.com for amiga stuff	Sep 18 01:16
cubezzz	they are still in business	Sep 18 01:17
cubezzz	Amiga isn't completely dead	Sep 18 01:17
ThistleWeb	it's just having a lie down	Sep 18 01:17
ThistleWeb	it's getting better	Sep 18 01:17
_goblin	yeah....Ive a catweasel myself...	Sep 18 01:17
ThistleWeb	it thinks it'll go for a walk soon	Sep 18 01:17
_goblin	although most of my stuff is in .adf	Sep 18 01:17
_goblin	I have no real need for floppy reading anymore.	Sep 18 01:18
cubezzz	I'm porting my own Amiga progs to Linux	Sep 18 01:18
_goblin	sweet...I had so many projects I wanted to get done....at the moment I just don't have the time with work.....	Sep 18 01:18
_goblin	I would like to finish a demo I started about a year ago.....	Sep 18 01:19
ThistleWeb	remember the 4 disc animated movie on the amiga?	Sep 18 01:20
_goblin	the scene has changed so much though since the Amiga......	Sep 18 01:20
_goblin	which one?	Sep 18 01:20
ThistleWeb	cant remember the name, but it looked like a space artoon	Sep 18 01:20
ThistleWeb	cartoon*	Sep 18 01:20
_goblin	Space Ace	Sep 18 01:20
_goblin	the game....	Sep 18 01:20
ThistleWeb	sounds right	Sep 18 01:20
_goblin	Don Bluef	Sep 18 01:20
ThistleWeb	no, a movie	Sep 18 01:20
ThistleWeb	non-interactove	Sep 18 01:20
cubezzz	all this was Linux: http://cubeman.org/wireframe.html	Sep 18 01:20
_goblin	a movie game...like dragonslair....?	Sep 18 01:20
ThistleWeb	no, it wasnt a game	Sep 18 01:21
_goblin	ah	Sep 18 01:21
ThistleWeb	you couldnt play it	Sep 18 01:21
_goblin	pass then...	Sep 18 01:21
ThistleWeb	just watch	Sep 18 01:21
_goblin	unless it was a demo for Space Ace	Sep 18 01:21
ThistleWeb	4 discs, sound with subtitles at parts	Sep 18 01:21
ThistleWeb	it lasted like 45mins to watch	Sep 18 01:21
_goblin	"Space Ace, defender of justice truth of the planet earth......Ace is being attacked by the Evil Commander borf"	Sep 18 01:21
_goblin	ah	Sep 18 01:21
_goblin	its not space ace then.....	Sep 18 01:22
ThistleWeb	it'd get so far then tell you to insert disc 2 etc	Sep 18 01:22
cubezzz	I tried the arcade one	Sep 18 01:22
_goblin	the demo was only about 2 mins...	Sep 18 01:22
cubezzz	laserdisc games didn't last very long	Sep 18 01:22
ThistleWeb	it was like a show off for the amiga when you had mates round	Sep 18 01:22
_goblin	RSI Megademo was the demo that sold me an amiga.	Sep 18 01:22
_goblin	http://www.demoscene.tv/page.php?id=172&lang=uk&vsmaction=view_prod&id_prod=8996	Sep 18 01:23
cubezzz	I don't miss the guru mediations :)	Sep 18 01:25
ThistleWeb	one of my old school mates was one of the biggest amiga warez distributers in the area, so I got lots of new amiga stuff from him with just a phone call to check if he was in	Sep 18 01:26
ThistleWeb	not long after that we fell out for other reasons, I've not spoken to him since	Sep 18 01:26
cubezzz	I paid for Pipe Dream	Sep 18 01:26
_goblin	right Im off for the night....0129 here in the uk..................	Sep 18 01:27
cubezzz	nite	Sep 18 01:27
_goblin	great chat!	Sep 18 01:27
_goblin	gn	Sep 18 01:27
ThistleWeb	cya _goblin	Sep 18 01:27
zlg	Did you run GOMF on your A500 ?	Sep 18 01:27
*_goblin has quit ("Ex-Chat")		Sep 18 01:27
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[davidgerard] WTF has happened to a lot of people's twitter icons? #iconalypse		Sep 18 01:27
ThistleWeb	one annoying amiga design flaw I thought was the modulator, they ALWAYS went faulty, where you had to prop it up with magazines, tape cases etc just to play your machine without the screen glickering	Sep 18 01:28
cubezzz	GOMF? I don't think so	Sep 18 01:28
ThistleWeb	the A600 had the modulator built in, so I guess they took that on board	Sep 18 01:28
cubezzz	I think I used a monitor, 1084 maybe	Sep 18 01:29
cubezzz	RF modulator	Sep 18 01:29
zlg	yes, I remember having some problems like that,	Sep 18 01:29
cubezzz	no RF modulator	Sep 18 01:29
zlg	on my A500	Sep 18 01:29
ThistleWeb	I worked in a store selling them at the time, and we had LOTS of them go with that fault	Sep 18 01:30
zlg	but not often, it was a reliable best, and I did not get many Guru's from membery, some not many	Sep 18 01:30
ThistleWeb	it was rare to find one which worked fine for a prolonged period and didn't give problems	Sep 18 01:30
ThistleWeb	not so much the modulators going faulty, but the connection to the device	Sep 18 01:31
zlg	I think my floppy failed, so I had to modify a 3.5inch PC one for it.	Sep 18 01:31
ThistleWeb	it got loose	Sep 18 01:31
zlg	Yes, mine was the connect, you would lose a colour	Sep 18 01:31
cubezzz	the earliest demo I can remember is the Kinnersley rubik's cube demo from 1986	Sep 18 01:31
zlg	I liked to play Elite :D	Sep 18 01:31
cubezzz	Fish Disk #29 :)	Sep 18 01:31
ThistleWeb	so you had to tell peeps DON'T TOUCH THE AMIGA!!!! in case it nudged it and you had to pause your game and fiddle for five mins to get the picture to be in colour and stop flickering	Sep 18 01:32
cubezzz	well the power supply was weak too	Sep 18 01:32
ThistleWeb	yeah the power supply was another common issue	Sep 18 01:32
cubezzz	no MMU on the Amiga 500 either	Sep 18 01:33
zlg	Yes, thats true, mine was purchased in the US so was 115volts, we have 240 in Aus, so I used to run mine on a huge variac.	Sep 18 01:33
ThistleWeb	it was annoying to have to unplug the mouse to plug a second joystick in when your mates came round	Sep 18 01:33
zlg	No, the lack of MMU in the 6800x0 CPU's was an issue, and caused the Guru meditations	Sep 18 01:33
cubezzz	I don't think anyone tried Linux on Amiga 500 for that reason	Sep 18 01:34
ThistleWeb	it's odd, when you got used to gaming with a joystick, swicthing to a joypad on a console felt odd. Now I couldn't use a joystick, the pad just feels more natural	Sep 18 01:34
ThistleWeb	I'd guess some games would suit a joystick, like flight sims	Sep 18 01:34
zlg	Im trying to remeber the chipset used in it, there was a graphics and sound one by certain names.	Sep 18 01:35
ThistleWeb	that reminds me of the microswitches in joysticks which would click with every move	Sep 18 01:35
zlg	I remember bobs and sprites when programming the A500	Sep 18 01:35
cubezzz	angus, paula and another one :)	Sep 18 01:35
zlg	Fat angus, yes LOL	Sep 18 01:35
ThistleWeb	very reliable but hella annoying when you're playing in a quiet room	Sep 18 01:36
cubezzz	kraft joystick ftw :)	Sep 18 01:36
ThistleWeb	you did get some quality cheap joysticks then	Sep 18 01:36
ThistleWeb	hard wearing (unless you have a taste for Olympics style games)	Sep 18 01:37
ThistleWeb	I'm convinced these games are funded by joystick makers	Sep 18 01:37
ThistleWeb	so you get a new game which destroys your joystick in a week and you have to go buy a new one	Sep 18 01:38
zlg	considering it was a what 12Mhz 68020, with feature righ graphics and sound, Kernel in ROM and OS on a 3.5in sigle disk it was way ahead of it's time.	Sep 18 01:38
cubezzz	Angus, Paula and Lisa I think were the chip names	Sep 18 01:38
ThistleWeb	I refused to have these type of games on my system for that reason	Sep 18 01:38
cubezzz	amiga was special yes	Sep 18 01:39
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[davidgerard] outlaws often choose a life of crime from ... incompetence. http://is.gd/3opaZ		Sep 18 01:40
cubezzz	Gary, gary was also a chip :)	Sep 18 01:42
zlg	Yes, that sounds right, it's a damn shame it did not continue to evolve, as well as the 680x0 CPU line.	Sep 18 01:44
ThistleWeb	Gary was also a dickhead, but I'm guessing it's a different Gary we're talking about lol	Sep 18 01:45
cubezzz	well the chip did overheat :)	Sep 18 01:45
cubezzz	well motorola divested itself from the cpu business	Sep 18 01:46
zlg	I think Macs were 68000 based in those days as well.	Sep 18 01:46
cubezzz	zlg, mac and sega genesis too	Sep 18 01:46
zlg	they are still used alot in embedded applications.	Sep 18 01:47
zlg	in some area's not phone and things	Sep 18 01:47
zlg	SM&I	Sep 18 01:48
cubezzz	I see mostly ARM nowadays	Sep 18 01:48
zlg	Yes,	Sep 18 01:48
zlg	the same Z80 CPU core in the TRS-80 is what is used in GameBoys :)	Sep 18 01:50
zlg	and aircraft flight data recorders	Sep 18 01:50
cubezzz	z80 is very old tech	Sep 18 01:51
zlg	4004, 8008, 8080, 8080 and PIO, CIA... Z80 (all compined), 4004 was a calculator chip.	Sep 18 01:52
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zlg	space invader machine was Z80	Sep 18 01:54
cubezzz	Intel	Sep 18 01:56
cubezzz	8080	Sep 18 01:56
cubezzz	not zilog	Sep 18 01:56
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[davidgerard] how to get television competing with the internet http://is.gd/3opY0 next will be viruses and spam		Sep 18 01:56
zlg	Me and a fellow called Craig southeren http://csoutheren.users.sourceforge.net/ used to hack 2650 and Z80 CPU in the 70's	Sep 18 01:57
zlg	he hacked, I looked on in AWE... lol	Sep 18 01:58
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[davidgerard] my twitter icon is back. all is well with the world. by the way, you can put references somewhere sensible on wikipedia now.		Sep 18 02:08
*_Hicham_ (n=hicham@41.249.69.216) has joined #boycottnovell		Sep 18 02:44
_Hicham_	Hi senior schestowitz !	Sep 18 02:44
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cubezzz	zlg, that URL doesn't work	Sep 18 03:21
cubezzz	hmmm, how to I get cos tan and the like on arm	Sep 18 03:24
cubezzz	no FPU on zaurus maybe?	Sep 18 03:25
cubezzz	er, or just use -lm :)	Sep 18 03:26
cubezzz	ok, let's see how fast zaurus benchmarks	Sep 18 03:26
twitter1	what is it, bison?	Sep 18 03:27
twitter1	bc	Sep 18 03:28
twitter1	that's the arbitrary precision calculator. it should work on ARM	Sep 18 03:28
Diablo-D3	bc works on fpuless machines fine	Sep 18 03:28
cubezzz	twitter1, no I was trying to compile whets.c	Sep 18 03:28
cubezzz	for benchmarking zaurus	Sep 18 03:29
Balrog_	bison is the yacc-compatible parser generator	Sep 18 03:29
Diablo-D3	cubezzz: whetstone is a fp benchmark	Sep 18 03:29
Diablo-D3	you want dhrystone	Sep 18 03:29
Balrog_	(aka compiler-compiler)	Sep 18 03:29
Diablo-D3	dhrystone is the integer version of whetstone	Sep 18 03:29
twitter1	yeah, bc is something to get cos tan and the like on arm	Sep 18 03:29
cubezzz	Diablo-D3, I want to test both	Sep 18 03:29
Diablo-D3	but your ARM doesnt have an FPU does it?	Sep 18 03:29
twitter1	you might just generate random numbers	Sep 18 03:29
cubezzz	I'm not sure actually	Sep 18 03:29
Diablo-D3	if it doesnt it obviously wont work	Sep 18 03:30
Diablo-D3	it'll just use the software emulation path	Sep 18 03:30
cubezzz	hmmm	Sep 18 03:30
Diablo-D3	assuming your arm environment has it	Sep 18 03:30
cubezzz	well it's arm 1100 I think	Sep 18 03:31
Diablo-D3	what device?	Sep 18 03:31
cubezzz	SA-1100 in zaurus sl-5500	Sep 18 03:31
Diablo-D3	an intel strongarm	Sep 18 03:32
cubezzz	it's running whets	Sep 18 03:32
Diablo-D3	its an arm7	Sep 18 03:33
cubezzz	ok, I don't think it has an FPU :)	Sep 18 03:33
Diablo-D3	lol that was used in the apple newton	Sep 18 03:34
Diablo-D3	well, the sa-110 was	Sep 18 03:34
Diablo-D3	the sa-1100 was a smaller version but same cpu	Sep 18 03:34
Diablo-D3	nope, no fpu	Sep 18 03:36
Diablo-D3	in fact, its rather a POS	Sep 18 03:36
cubezzz	well, it's just a PDA after all	Sep 18 03:36
Diablo-D3	yeah, but look at, say, the iphone 3gs	Sep 18 03:36
Diablo-D3	like 100 times more power =P	Sep 18 03:36
twitter1	apcalc?	Sep 18 03:37
twitter1	http://www.isthe.com/chongo/tech/comp/calc/	Sep 18 03:37
cubezzz	ok, well at least I know it doesn't have a FPU	Sep 18 03:38
twitter1	ok	Sep 18 03:39
cubezzz	good enough for integer stuff	Sep 18 03:40
twitter1	I donno, I use my Handspring Visor's calculator all day long.	Sep 18 03:44
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twitter1	Microsoft Exchange is a piece of shit.	Sep 18 04:04
twitter1	the web interface is insulting and takes forever to serve simple text.	Sep 18 04:04
cubezzz	Dhrystones per Second: 268817.2	Sep 18 04:05
_Hicham_	twitter1 as always, using and promoting Windows Software	Sep 18 04:07
_Hicham_	hi twitter1	Sep 18 04:07
twitter1	it's not my idea to use it	Sep 18 04:07
cubezzz	lol	Sep 18 04:08
cubezzz	he's not promoting it :)	Sep 18 04:08
_Hicham_	twitter1 : I will wipe proprietary software off the planet	Sep 18 04:09
twitter1	it will go away on it's own, _Hicham_	Sep 18 04:09
_Hicham_	twitter1 : it needs a lot of time without massive action	Sep 18 04:11
_Hicham_	I see Ubuntu and Mozilla examples as good ones	Sep 18 04:12
_Hicham_	marketing is the key	Sep 18 04:12
twitter1	there is massive action going on, these little things called the free and open source movements	Sep 18 04:12
_Hicham_	there is a massive action also made by MS	Sep 18 04:21
_Hicham_	and its shills	Sep 18 04:21
twitter1	Someone at work was sleepwalking through the usual Windows siren song.	Sep 18 04:27
_Hicham_	twitter1 is deeply in love with Windows	Sep 18 04:28
twitter1	"this one is pee cee based, not propitiatory like Unix" "friendlier, more intuitive interface"	Sep 18 04:28
_Hicham_	Windows is his babe	Sep 18 04:28
*twitter1 ignores _Hicham_ again, sigh		Sep 18 04:28
cubezzz	twitter1, that just sounds like gibberish	Sep 18 04:29
_Hicham_	Will Hill the Shill	Sep 18 04:29
twitter1	it is gibberish	Sep 18 04:29
cubezzz	what was he even talking about? :)	Sep 18 04:29
twitter1	but something the M$ people have been using for years.	Sep 18 04:29
twitter1	a piece of medical equipment that's a little difficult to learn but that's been working without a problem for about a decade.	Sep 18 04:30
cubezzz	not proprietary?	Sep 18 04:30
cubezzz	he's comparing windows to unix I suppose?	Sep 18 04:30
twitter1	yes, it seems that word only applies to Unix for some reason. Windows is "open" "off the shelf" or some other nonsense like that	Sep 18 04:31
twitter1	it's a big double think	Sep 18 04:31
cubezzz	it's positively Orwellian :)	Sep 18 04:31
twitter1	I pointed out that now is not the best time to buy anything Windows based - it's going to depend on XP, which is being killed.	Sep 18 04:32
cubezzz	I think part of the problem is he has no experience using Linux	Sep 18 04:32
cubezzz	or Unix even	Sep 18 04:32
twitter1	that is a big part of the problem, and he did not want to learn anything else. the difficulty of keeping up with windows leaves these people without a spare moment.	Sep 18 04:33
twitter1	right	Sep 18 04:33
twitter1	I pointed out to him that his company's machine had worked without problem for years.	Sep 18 04:33
twitter1	and that I was sure that they would be able to support it years into the future	Sep 18 04:33
_Hicham_	Microsoft will extend its support for XP beyond 2013	Sep 18 04:34
_Hicham_	wasn't that the official EOL of XP ?	Sep 18 04:34
cubezzz	I was in a government building a while ago and I asked "How many machines here do not run windows"	Sep 18 04:34
cubezzz	and the answer was zero	Sep 18 04:35
cubezzz	that's Canada for you :-/	Sep 18 04:35
twitter1	the practical thing to do with Windows stuff right now is wait and see. If M$ succeeds in pushing Vista/Windows 7, the XP stuff will be a huge support pain. If M$ does not manage to push Vista, M$ will have better problems and it's time to move on to other platforms.	Sep 18 04:35
_Hicham_	French Parliament has adopted Ubuntu	Sep 18 04:35
_Hicham_	years ago	Sep 18 04:35
_Hicham_	and Germany is moving	Sep 18 04:35
_Hicham_	I don't remember the project	Sep 18 04:35
_Hicham_	but it is still going	Sep 18 04:35
cubezzz	Europe is doing better than us, yes	Sep 18 04:37
cubezzz	Canada is too close to Redmond	Sep 18 04:37
_Hicham_	where do u live ? Vancouver ?	Sep 18 04:38
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_Hicham_	wb wallclimber	Sep 18 04:38
wallclimber	Hi, how are you?	Sep 18 04:38
cubezzz	Ontario, close to Toronto	Sep 18 04:38
cubezzz	hi wallclimber	Sep 18 04:38
wallclimber	hi! :)	Sep 18 04:38
_Hicham_	wallclimber : no more laptops to fix ?	Sep 18 04:38
cubezzz	not super close to Redmond, but Canada isn't far enough away	Sep 18 04:39
wallclimber	I sent it home, it's running fine now	Sep 18 04:39
wallclimber	till next time.	Sep 18 04:39
twitter1	Redmond is too close to me. No Windows stuff in my house.	Sep 18 04:39
_Hicham_	twitter1 is a confirmed MS shill, so nobody trust him	Sep 18 04:40
_Hicham_	he is always taking beers with MS staff	Sep 18 04:40
cubezzz	I can't compile any of these ancient dhrystone programs	Sep 18 04:40
cubezzz	it seems like no one has written one since the 80's	Sep 18 04:41
_Hicham_	where are those programs cubezzz ?	Sep 18 04:41
cubezzz	ftp://ftp.sunet.se/pub/benchmark/aburto/dhrystone/dhry21a.c	Sep 18 04:41
_Hicham_	cubezzz : what are those programs for ?	Sep 18 04:44
cubezzz	benchmark cpu	Sep 18 04:44
_Hicham_	i think there is better programs for that	Sep 18 04:45
_Hicham_	I ve seen one on ubuntu	Sep 18 04:45
cubezzz	I just want plain linux	Sep 18 04:45
_Hicham_	cubezzz : it compiled fine for me	Sep 18 04:45
_Hicham_	with just two warnings	Sep 18 04:45
_Hicham_	gcc -DUNIX -O2 dhry21a.c dhry21b.c timers_b.c -o dhry21	Sep 18 04:46
_Hicham_	dhry21a.c:34: warning: conflicting types for built-in function ‘malloc’	Sep 18 04:46
_Hicham_	dhry21a.c: In function ‘main’:	Sep 18 04:46
_Hicham_	dhry21a.c:90: warning: incompatible implicit declaration of built-in function ‘exit’	Sep 18 04:46
_Hicham_	dhry21a.c:100: warning: incompatible implicit declaration of built-in function ‘strcpy’	Sep 18 04:46
_Hicham_	if u add <stdlib.h> and <string.h> and comment extern char *malloc(),	Sep 18 04:48
_Hicham_	u will get no warnings at all	Sep 18 04:48
_Hicham_	cubezzz : u here?	Sep 18 04:49
cubezzz	yes, I see	Sep 18 04:49
cubezzz	I was missing parts, duh	Sep 18 04:50
_Hicham_	download the whole directory	Sep 18 04:50
_Hicham_	and type make	Sep 18 04:50
_Hicham_	after making the changes i mentioned	Sep 18 04:50
cubezzz	ok, good	Sep 18 04:52
cubezzz	thank you	Sep 18 04:52
cubezzz	arm-linux-gcc -DUNIX -O2 dhry21a.c dhry21b.c timers_b.c -o dhry21	Sep 18 04:54
cubezzz	that does what I want	Sep 18 04:54
cubezzz	p3 550 = 269541.8	Sep 18 04:56
cubezzz	oops	Sep 18 04:56
cubezzz	zaurus = 269541.8	Sep 18 04:56
cubezzz	p3 550 = 992063.5	Sep 18 04:56
cubezzz	p3 is 3.68 times as fast as zaurus	Sep 18 04:57
cubezzz	so strongarm running at 206 mhz, vs p3 550 mhz	Sep 18 04:59
cubezzz	it seems like the p3 should be more than 3.68 times as fast	Sep 18 05:00
twitter1	hmmm. someone has oral sex on their mind http://slashdot.org/comments.pl?sid=1368047&cid=29422579	Sep 18 05:19
_Hicham_	twitter1 is mentioned everywhere	Sep 18 05:28
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jbc	hello	Sep 18 05:29
jbc	can any1 help me with excel VBA?	Sep 18 05:29
_Hicham_	ha ha	Sep 18 05:29
_Hicham_	I have once worked on PowerPoint VBA	Sep 18 05:30
jbc	lol	Sep 18 05:30
jbc	is it the same?	Sep 18 05:30
_Hicham_	yeah, it is the same	Sep 18 05:30
jbc	i got an assignment	Sep 18 05:30
jbc	need some help	Sep 18 05:30
jbc	lol	Sep 18 05:30
_Hicham_	but since there is no one in here using Windows	Sep 18 05:30
_Hicham_	u won't get much help	Sep 18 05:30
jbc	ooo	Sep 18 05:30
jbc	mac? here?	Sep 18 05:31
jbc	linux?	Sep 18 05:31
_Hicham_	Linux	Sep 18 05:31
jbc	aaa	Sep 18 05:31
jbc	is tere a channel for windows?	Sep 18 05:31
_Hicham_	I don't know	Sep 18 05:32
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ThistleWeb	that was funny	Sep 18 05:36
_Hicham_	ThistleWeb : what was funny ?	Sep 18 05:37
ThistleWeb	why in the hell would he even think this was the place to come for that help	Sep 18 05:37
ThistleWeb	unless it as a joke	Sep 18 05:37
_Hicham_	I don't know	Sep 18 05:37
ThistleWeb	the vba help	Sep 18 05:37
_Hicham_	I would have helped him	Sep 18 05:37
_Hicham_	but not with an MS product	Sep 18 05:37
Diablo-D3	[12:00:09] <cubezzz> p3 is 3.68 times as fast as zaurus	Sep 18 05:37
Diablo-D3	[12:02:16] <cubezzz> so strongarm running at 206 mhz, vs p3 550 mhz	Sep 18 05:37
Diablo-D3	[12:02:37] <cubezzz> it seems like the p3 should be more than 3.68 times as fast	Sep 18 05:37
_Hicham_	even though I have done some VBA before	Sep 18 05:38
Diablo-D3	thats kinda sad.	Sep 18 05:38
_Hicham_	Diablo-D3 : why ?	Sep 18 05:38
Diablo-D3	the p3 uses more than 3.68 times more power.	Sep 18 05:39
Diablo-D3	and they're about roughly the same age too	Sep 18 05:39
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_Hicham_	Intel is interested in wasting power	Sep 18 05:45
_Hicham_	like all american companies	Sep 18 05:45
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zlg	there is always a tradeoff between processing power, CPU speed and power.	Sep 18 06:16
fewa	zlg, some architectures are inherently more efficient however	Sep 18 06:16
zlg	yes, very true, determines how many CPU cycles are required or a particular function, and as you said some architectures are just better (for power comsumption)	Sep 18 06:19
fewa	This is why architectures like ARM will eventually win	Sep 18 06:19
fewa	zlg, not just CPU cycles	Sep 18 06:19
fewa	if you can design a processor without pipelining then it can be much more efficient	Sep 18 06:19
fewa	be designed with much more freedoms	Sep 18 06:19
fewa	x86 is an inherantly inefficient architecture, and as manufacturing prices and yields go down, and electricity prices go up, x86 will be unable to compete	Sep 18 06:20
zlg	yes and no, pipelining is a way of increasing or improving the CPU cycles you have, like pre-emptive, and VLIW processores	Sep 18 06:20
fewa	But you cant have perfectly scaled power management with pipelining	Sep 18 06:21
fewa	a ARM cpu only uses the power it requires to do the job	Sep 18 06:21
zlg	x86 is old,	Sep 18 06:21
fewa	if you have a more powerful ARM cpu it will use the same amount of electricity as a low power ARM cpu when doing the same thing at the same rate	Sep 18 06:22
zlg	they are still basically von numan	Sep 18 06:22
fewa	while x86 processors are generally either on, or off, and frequency scaling is a very kluggy process	Sep 18 06:22
zlg	yes, agreed, I dont know how well they really SMP either compared to some other families	Sep 18 06:23
fewa	Any system that relys on x86 will user more elctricity and have less battery life than a system that can run on new architectures	Sep 18 06:23
fewa	*more efficient, and better designed	Sep 18 06:23
fewa	If anything else does not kill Windows this will	Sep 18 06:23
fewa	natural selection	Sep 18 06:24
*cubezzz2 is now known as cubezzz		Sep 18 06:26
zlg	I still think there is a great deal of mileage in the x86 CPU family yet, I think long gone are the days where CPU performance is really a big issue I come from the days of 8MhzAT and "turbo buttons" I dont even know the CPU speed of this machine !	Sep 18 06:28
fewa	zlg, its not performance	Sep 18 06:28
fewa	its performance/watt	Sep 18 06:28
fewa	and how much that performance/watt hold up accross load, and its granularity	Sep 18 06:29
zlg	Yes, for portable and mobile computing you are exactly right, I guess in server farms and so on it get's to be an issue too.	Sep 18 06:29
fewa	a computer over its life time costs more in electricity than it does in initial cost	Sep 18 06:29
fewa	and most people in this world don't have the money to endlessly pay for increasingly expensive electricity	Sep 18 06:30
fewa	not to mention the environmental impact	Sep 18 06:30
fewa	this effect will not happen tomarrow	Sep 18 06:30
fewa	but as the platforms converge with web browsers, the commoditize more and more, this can become critical	Sep 18 06:31
fewa	*they	Sep 18 06:31
_Hicham_	energy is a serious issue	Sep 18 06:31
fewa	_Hicham_, do you agree?	Sep 18 06:32
_Hicham_	and it will become critical when we will ran out of oil	Sep 18 06:32
_Hicham_	of course	Sep 18 06:32
zlg	I certainly agree, and you are right but it would be the power consumption of your entire computer, monitor and so on, not just the dissipation of the CPU which might be what 120 watts on full load, 2 60wat light globes, and your PC supply is probably rated at 250 or 500 watts.	Sep 18 06:32
fewa	it will kill x86 due to its unfit nature	Sep 18 06:32
cubezzz	a big part of computer slowness is hard drive speed	Sep 18 06:32
fewa	zlg, everything else will converge across the commodity	Sep 18 06:32
zlg	Energy consumption is a hugely serious issue,	Sep 18 06:33
fewa	zlg, and they will all be equal, with all equal something that is inherantly inefficient will have to go	Sep 18 06:33
_Hicham_	I d like to have a hard drive that doesn't heat up	Sep 18 06:33
fewa	cubezzz, flash is going to change that, and lower power usage	Sep 18 06:33
_Hicham_	now it is 45°C	Sep 18 06:33
fewa	also the increasingly inexpensive DRAM	Sep 18 06:33
_Hicham_	fewa : flash ?	Sep 18 06:34
fewa	I got 8 friggen gigs	Sep 18 06:34
fewa	I hardly even fill it us	Sep 18 06:34
fewa	up*	Sep 18 06:34
fewa	_Hicham_, flash storage, ie SSD	Sep 18 06:34
_Hicham_	ah	Sep 18 06:34
cubezzz	how big can SSD be?	Sep 18 06:34
zlg	with 8 gig does it annoy you that most of it is not used ?	Sep 18 06:34
_Hicham_	as big as it can be	Sep 18 06:34
fewa	cubezzz, the density is insane, so much bigger than hard drives which only work on 2 dimensions	Sep 18 06:35
fewa	The problem right now is manufacture costs	Sep 18 06:35
fewa	space is not an issue at all	Sep 18 06:35
fewa	..and yields	Sep 18 06:35
fewa	flash fallows the same moores law	Sep 18 06:35
fewa	as yields go up the amount of storage on one die will go up exponentially	Sep 18 06:36
cubezzz	maybe I should try one, get an external flash drive...	Sep 18 06:36
fewa	rapidly bringing down costs	Sep 18 06:36
fewa	I just got an SD card	Sep 18 06:36
fewa	and put a system on that	Sep 18 06:36
zlg	Ive got 4 gig but it rarly goes above 1gig usage, but when I watch a movie off the HD I would like to see the entire movie dumped into RAM in one hit, and the movie showed from the RAM.	Sep 18 06:36
fewa	no need to use a more expensive SATA one	Sep 18 06:36
fewa	that is soooo much bigger	Sep 18 06:36
fewa	you can get a really fast 8GB SD card for maybe $45	Sep 18 06:37
fewa	I got a faster than hard drive 4GB one for $15	Sep 18 06:37
fewa	zlg, no need for it to be dumped on RAM, as the hard drive speed is faster than the bit rate	Sep 18 06:37
cubezzz	indeed	Sep 18 06:37
zlg	You have to wait a bit for the SSD's to get a high number of writes .	Sep 18 06:37
fewa	RAM caching is only important for binaries	Sep 18 06:38
zlg	Yes, but that churns the drive, I would like it all dumped in one hit, then despin the HD	Sep 18 06:38
fewa	and things access more than once	Sep 18 06:38
fewa	if its only accessed once RAM doesn't help you at all	Sep 18 06:38
fewa	you could have 0 ram and still do fin	Sep 18 06:38
fewa	it would just be a I/O stack machine	Sep 18 06:39
fewa	run right through	Sep 18 06:39
zlg	I mean I can watch a 2 hour movie, and for the entire 2 hours my hard drive is reading data, whereas I would rather my HD dump that file in my RAM in 2 minutes and stop running at all for the next 2 hours.	Sep 18 06:39
fewa	zlg, meh, thats the type of agressing caching vista was trying to do	Sep 18 06:39
fewa	but even more than it was doing	Sep 18 06:40
fewa	I think for program files there is a good rationale for that	Sep 18 06:40
cubezzz	make everything nvram :)	Sep 18 06:40
fewa	and Linux developers were looking to copy it for use on desktops	Sep 18 06:40
fewa	as Linux caching only works best on system that never turn off	Sep 18 06:41
fewa	then it's excellent, and unmatched	Sep 18 06:41
fewa	zlg, you hard drive will already be used during that time doing other things	Sep 18 06:41
fewa	but yeah I see your point	Sep 18 06:42
zlg	It's makes sense the chching would work best after running awile and being filled.	Sep 18 06:42
fewa	it would be a micro-optimization	Sep 18 06:42
zlg	fewa, true, but not as much, my HD spin down after a period of inactivity, I have multiple.	Sep 18 06:42
fewa	at the cost of potential performance	Sep 18 06:42
fewa	thats why the computer does not do it	Sep 18 06:42
zlg	What I do is dump it onto a USB stick, and watch it from that, no moving parts.	Sep 18 06:42
fewa	because it sees it as a waste of RAM	Sep 18 06:43
fewa	but you could increase your readahead buffer by a few GBs	Sep 18 06:43
fewa	perhaps with a way to recognize these type of situations	Sep 18 06:43
zlg	fewa yes, your right, it is a waste of RAM, and what's to say to the computer you are going to view the entire file/movie, so it's read it all for nothing.	Sep 18 06:44
zlg	Once again it's a tradeoff	Sep 18 06:44
fewa	exactly	Sep 18 06:44
fewa	current optimizations in kernels are focuses on extremely probable tradeoffs	Sep 18 06:44
cubezzz	buy a stand alone player, pipe the video to your monitor	Sep 18 06:44
fewa	and increases that are nothing but increases in performance	Sep 18 06:44
cubezzz	zero computer use	Sep 18 06:44
fewa	they are not to the unlikely and discretional tradeoffs quite yet	Sep 18 06:45
fewa	there are too many bigger issues	Sep 18 06:45
zlg	cubezzz ive gone the other way, my computer is not multiple TV's VCR's, and entertainment centers, but I dont use a TV or radio	Sep 18 06:45
cubezzz	no tv tuner card?	Sep 18 06:46
zlg	no two USB tuner sticks for HD TV	Sep 18 06:46
fewa	_Hicham_, i have a fan just for my hard drives	Sep 18 06:46
fewa	as to think, they are the most important hardware in my computer	Sep 18 06:46
fewa	and they get really hot without a fan	Sep 18 06:46
_Hicham_	fewa : I have a laptop	Sep 18 06:47
fewa	http://www.codinghorror.com/blog/archives/000748.html	Sep 18 06:47
_Hicham_	I tried everything	Sep 18 06:47
cubezzz	zlg: do you bother with fm radio on the computer?	Sep 18 06:49
_Hicham_	from cleaning to coolers	Sep 18 06:50
_Hicham_	but in vain	Sep 18 06:50
zlg	Ive looked at it, but no not really, I used to listen to Australia Newsradio but I dont even do that now.	Sep 18 06:50
cubezzz	well for hard drive temp, you can go external	Sep 18 06:50
cubezzz	I'm sure external drives are cooler	Sep 18 06:50
fewa	ooo, this is really good http://www.codinghorror.com/blog/archives/001301.html	Sep 18 06:51
zlg	My critical data is on a HD that is in an Anti-static bag, in a safe :)	Sep 18 06:51
fewa	explains why clothes can be 500x the cost it takes to produce them in Europe, US, and the developed world	Sep 18 06:51
fewa	and are still marketed as "cheap"	Sep 18 06:51
fewa	lots of this also: http://www.codinghorror.com/blog/archives/001295.html	Sep 18 06:53
fewa	lots of companys want to turn internet users into tech support people	Sep 18 06:53
fewa	for propritary products	Sep 18 06:53
cubezzz	I prefer optical for backup (3 copies)	Sep 18 06:53
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fewa	the interesting thing with pro-profit advertising sites like wikia is that I have adblock	Sep 18 06:54
fewa	so I usually don't see the difference	Sep 18 06:55
fewa	cubezzz, its cheaper to backup to hard drives	Sep 18 06:55
Will___	schestowitz: This Dilbert strip is a couple of years old, but it fits well some of the latest moves out of Redmond: http://www.dilbert.com/fast/2007-09-13/	Sep 18 06:55
fewa	hard drives are actually cheaper storage, meanwhile they are easier to manage, dont require manual labor, dont have a Racket copyfraud tax, are faster, and can be rewritten many more times	Sep 18 06:56
fewa	oh, they also don't scratch	Sep 18 06:56
fewa	optical media are obsolete	Sep 18 06:56
cubezzz	fewa, let me ask you a question	Sep 18 06:57
cubezzz	how many of your drives are over 10 years old?	Sep 18 06:57
fewa	1	Sep 18 06:57
fewa	but that was my first hard drive	Sep 18 06:57
fewa	but yeah, you have a point	Sep 18 06:58
zlg	for me all but 1, so about 6.	Sep 18 06:58
cubezzz	the disc will out-last your drive	Sep 18 06:58
cubezzz	mechanical parts = eventual failure	Sep 18 06:59
cubezzz	and yes, your platter's can be scratched	Sep 18 06:59
cubezzz	by the read-write head	Sep 18 06:59
zlg	True, that's also why they are not in use, they have extreemly long shelf lifes.	Sep 18 06:59
fewa	flash is best	Sep 18 07:00
fewa	is the storage size is low	Sep 18 07:00
cubezzz	I don't know, it seems rather inconclusive	Sep 18 07:00
fewa	--you don't have to back up much data	Sep 18 07:00
cubezzz	all I can say is my oldest CDR's still work, they are about 11 years old	Sep 18 07:00
fewa	I trust flash more than anything	Sep 18 07:01
cubezzz	more than a printout? :)	Sep 18 07:01
fewa	yeah inconclusive, i treat alot of CD like shit	Sep 18 07:01
fewa	and they stop working	Sep 18 07:01
fewa	but some really old ones still work great	Sep 18 07:01
fewa	...hoping flahs fixes the breaking problem	Sep 18 07:01
cubezzz	well, assuming you treat your discs with care and keep them safe in storage...	Sep 18 07:02
fewa	Apple's time machine was a really great solution for the backup problem	Sep 18 07:02
zlg	It's true Ive not had an optical drive fail, but not have I have unused full HD fail either.	Sep 18 07:02
cubezzz	I trust optical more than magnetic hard drives	Sep 18 07:02
fewa	I have dropped a hard drive with tons of great stuff on it	Sep 18 07:02
fewa	100% full	Sep 18 07:02
fewa	:(	Sep 18 07:02
zlg	for A$80 or less I can buy a 1T HD.	Sep 18 07:02
cubezzz	ok, example of long time storage, safety film...	Sep 18 07:02
cubezzz	safety film from the 1930's still works good	Sep 18 07:03
cubezzz	so close to 80 years there	Sep 18 07:03
cubezzz	my kodachrome slides from the 60's still good	Sep 18 07:03
cubezzz	ok, now show me hard drive from 60's :)	Sep 18 07:03
cubezzz	still working	Sep 18 07:03
zlg	flash RAM have a finate storage time as well, and not that long.	Sep 18 07:04
schestowitz	Will___: I saw that Dilber before	Sep 18 07:04
schestowitz	*bert	Sep 18 07:04
cubezzz	here is what I do...	Sep 18 07:04
zlg	I still have a 10Meg HD from the 80's that still works	Sep 18 07:04
cubezzz	after 3 years I dup my discs	Sep 18 07:04
cubezzz	so every 3 years I have another backup	Sep 18 07:05
cubezzz	any very important program I wrote, print it out...	Sep 18 07:05
cubezzz	store in fire-proof safe	Sep 18 07:05
cubezzz	recently I had a guy bring me one of those tetrabyte hard drives	Sep 18 07:07
cubezzz	partition was corrupted, windows couldn't even see the drive	Sep 18 07:07
cubezzz	on Linux I backup the whole thing to another tetrabyte hd	Sep 18 07:07
zlg	I use the 3 i have in an external USB carrier, works like a dream.	Sep 18 07:07
cubezzz	but after all that I told him don't have all that data on just one drive	Sep 18 07:07
zlg	and quiet	Sep 18 07:08
zlg	yes, bad idea cubezz	Sep 18 07:08
fewa	zlg, really	Sep 18 07:09
fewa	when will flash drives break?	Sep 18 07:09
fewa	when will they disintigrate	Sep 18 07:09
zlg	yes, to keep all your data on just one hard drive.	Sep 18 07:09
cubezzz	I have a st157N but nothing to connect it to	Sep 18 07:09
fewa	compared to CDs and hard drives it will be a long time	Sep 18 07:09
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wallclimber	This is one of the most interesting conversations I've followed here. cubezzz, I do the same thing backing up drives - tho i do it every two years. Because I have about ten years of client files to keep, it's quite a chore. i feel like most of my spare change goes for more drive space	Sep 18 07:10
cubezzz	well, maybe if you never use the hard drive it will of course last longer	Sep 18 07:10
wallclimber	i live in the desrt and heat is a serious problem, i baby the drives i have and try to make them last.	Sep 18 07:11
wallclimber	i have two that are 10 years old, tho i don't keep anything important on them	Sep 18 07:11
cubezzz	film is the longest proven backup method	Sep 18 07:11
zlg	I also back up to optical, I would have a pile of DVD's mabey 6 feet high if you stacked it.	Sep 18 07:11
cubezzz	not hard drives :)	Sep 18 07:11
zlg	Hyroglyphs	Sep 18 07:12
cubezzz	chemically stable safety film	Sep 18 07:12
cubezzz	ok, I'm talking video here :)	Sep 18 07:12
zlg	lol	Sep 18 07:12
cubezzz	you did say video right?	Sep 18 07:12
zlg	yes, alot of mine is vid	Sep 18 07:13
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cubezzz	ok, let me also point out that drive interfaces change very quickly	Sep 18 07:13
cubezzz	there used to be SCSI 1	Sep 18 07:13
cubezzz	ok, well, now I have no SCSI 1 computer to connect the drive to	Sep 18 07:14
cubezzz	now, do the newest motherboards have 40-pin IDE connections?	Sep 18 07:14
cubezzz	maybe not....	Sep 18 07:14
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hicham_	good morning senior schestowitz	Sep 18 07:15
zlg	no they dont, but you can purchase adapters that allow them to connect to USB (and HD power 4 Pin).	Sep 18 07:15
wallclimber	i have an old "Promise" card that I installed into my new computer, so i can connect the old drives to get files off of them	Sep 18 07:15
zlg	yees, or that way, ive got a few of those hanging around as well. does modern motherboards come with an ISA bus ?	Sep 18 07:16
wallclimber	I was very surprised and pleased to find that Ubuntu had no problem recognising the card and the old drives connected to it	Sep 18 07:16
cubezzz	zlg: exactly	Sep 18 07:17
cubezzz	probably no ISA slots	Sep 18 07:17
cubezzz	wallclimber, old hardware is usually supported on Linux, better than doze certainly	Sep 18 07:17
wallclimber	definitely better!	Sep 18 07:18
zlg	I was going to say the same thing, there is no shortage of drivers for legacy gear in linux.	Sep 18 07:18
cubezzz	your only safety is redundacy	Sep 18 07:18
wallclimber	after fussing with that sony laptop this week, the contrast between the two systems was astounding	Sep 18 07:19
cubezzz	another thing I do is scan old papers, and then store on optical	Sep 18 07:19
cubezzz	example: I have 1930's newspapers and they are starting to decay	Sep 18 07:19
wallclimber	i have to do a lot of scanning, and keep the high resolution files. more storage is a constant need	Sep 18 07:20
zlg	that would be interesting, I guess post depression ?	Sep 18 07:20
zlg	or during	Sep 18 07:20
cubezzz	during actually	Sep 18 07:20
cubezzz	http://maxhost.org/blog/2009/01/funny-papers-1934-part-ii.html	Sep 18 07:22
wallclimber	how do you handle scanning such fragile paper?	Sep 18 07:22
cubezzz	well, I'm pretty careful... but it's at the point where I either scan it or lose it	Sep 18 07:23
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wallclimber	i do some old photo restorations periodically and it makes me very nervous handling them to scan...	Sep 18 07:25
wallclimber	i'm always glad to hand them back to their owners	Sep 18 07:25
zlg	photographing is a good way, use something like a 12maga pixel SLR.	Sep 18 07:26
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schestowitz	fewa: thanks. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=akVL7QY0S8A	Sep 18 07:26
cubezzz	my amiga discs definitely didn't stand the test of time	Sep 18 07:27
zlg	3.5in ? really, hmm	Sep 18 07:28
zlg	come to think of it I used to get alot of failures wth everyday suse.	Sep 18 07:29
zlg	use*	Sep 18 07:29
cubezzz	75% of silent film is lost	Sep 18 07:30
zlg	and highly flamable	Sep 18 07:31
zlg	celluloid	Sep 18 07:32
cubezzz	I have a few 8 inch discs, no drive though :)	Sep 18 07:36
cubezzz	there's 50 gig blu-ray recordable now, which comes close to hard drive sizes	Sep 18 07:38
fewa	wow look at what they think you are if you view the star wars wikia	Sep 18 07:39
fewa	http://ad.doubleclick.net/adi/wka.ent/_starwars/home;s0=ent;s1=_starwars;s2=home;age=teen;age=yadult;egnre=scifi;esrb=everyone;esrb=teen;gnre=action;gnre=adventure;media=movie;pform=all;sex=m;loc=top;artid=145545;pos=HOME_TOP_RIGHT_BOXAD;sz=300x250;tile=1;mtfIFPath=/extensions/wikia/AdEngine/;ord=99144392?	Sep 18 07:39
fewa	usually ad networks actively hid what they think of you	Sep 18 07:39
cubezzz	how can they know you're a guy?	Sep 18 07:41
fewa	all i did was go to http://starwars.wikia.com/	Sep 18 07:41
fewa	and without any preexisting cookies	Sep 18 07:41
fewa	it didn't even load cause I have host redirection of the biggest ad networks	Sep 18 07:42
fewa	talk about prejudice	Sep 18 07:42
fewa	thats a textbook example	Sep 18 07:42
fewa	wait i guess i had some cookies	Sep 18 07:42
fewa	no wait same w/o cookies	Sep 18 07:43
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-BNc/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] The Heroic #Microsoft Saves the World Again http://bit.ly/12v62i		Sep 18 07:54
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-BNc/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] No Patches for Windows Vista and Server 2008 as Exploit Surfaces; Gartner Lies for Microsoft http://bit.ly/tKtlK		Sep 18 08:31
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] No Patches for #Windows #Vista and #Server2008 as Exploit Surfaces; Gartner Lies for #Microsoft http://bit.ly/tKtlK		Sep 18 08:31
schestowitz	brb	Sep 18 08:33
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**** BEGIN LOGGING AT Fri Sep 18 08:39:39 2009
*Now talking on #boycottnovell		Sep 18 08:39
*Topic for #boycottnovell is: Communication about anything, including Microsoft, Novell, and Free software [publicly logged]		Sep 18 08:39
*Topic for #boycottnovell set by schestowitz at Fri Jun 12 18:24:05 2009		Sep 18 08:39
-ChanServ-[#boycottnovell] Welcome to the #boycottnovell channel		Sep 18 08:39
fewa	<schestowitz> Oh, look.....http://ubuntumanual.org/posts/244/ubuntu-artwork-team-starts-delivering-four-cool-themes-and-two-icon-sets-to-start-with (.Ubuntu Artwork team starts delivering - Four cool themes and two icon sets to start with! )	Sep 18 08:55
fewa	comming back to this	Sep 18 08:55
fewa	its the same reason there is ubuntu, kubuntu, xubuntu	Sep 18 08:56
fewa	its a marketing tactic	Sep 18 08:56
fewa	to highlight the difference and choice of linux	Sep 18 08:56
fewa	instead of telling them you show them by stating them as differn't products	Sep 18 08:56
fewa	its quite smart IMHO	Sep 18 08:56
fewa	and there is nothing wrong with it	Sep 18 08:56
schestowitz	They could just unify with the repos, I guess.	Sep 18 08:58
fewa	they do	Sep 18 08:58
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fewa	the repos are identical	Sep 18 08:58
fewa	its just a branding effort which lets people unfamilier have a good starting point	Sep 18 08:59
Diablo-D3	schestowitz: you do realize its all the same distro, right?	Sep 18 08:59
fewa	brand the options people have	Sep 18 08:59
fewa	^^^^ exactly	Sep 18 08:59
Diablo-D3	ubuntu, kubuntu, and xubuntu are all the _same_ product	Sep 18 08:59
Diablo-D3	the difference is which desktop meta-package is installed first	Sep 18 08:59
fewa	Diablo-D3, well not quite	Sep 18 08:59
Diablo-D3	the "server" product is just no desktop meta-package installed	Sep 18 08:59
Diablo-D3	fewa: yup, it pretty much is	Sep 18 09:00
fewa	they are brands for the KDE, GNOME, and XFCE products	Sep 18 09:00
Diablo-D3	not really	Sep 18 09:00
Diablo-D3	they're brands for ubuntu.	Sep 18 09:00
fewa	and ubuntu is basically the debian product	Sep 18 09:00
fewa	renamed	Sep 18 09:00
Diablo-D3	no	Sep 18 09:00
fewa	the "ubuntu product" is abmost a myth	Sep 18 09:00
fewa	its just a giant brand for canonical's packaging	Sep 18 09:00
oiaohm	KDE is in ubuntu is altered compared to debian version fewa	Sep 18 09:00
Diablo-D3	ubuntu is just ubuntu with gnome installed by default	Sep 18 09:00
Diablo-D3	kubuntu is ubuntu with kde installed by default	Sep 18 09:00
Diablo-D3	x is xfce by default	Sep 18 09:01
oiaohm	I like the debian version more fewa	Sep 18 09:01
Diablo-D3	and also	Sep 18 09:01
Diablo-D3	ubuntu is not debian	Sep 18 09:01
fewa	oiaohm, but they still are actively letting people conflate ubuntu with the projects that support it	Sep 18 09:01
Diablo-D3	and it never will be	Sep 18 09:01
fewa	and are included in it	Sep 18 09:01
fewa	but thats the more controversial point	Sep 18 09:01
Diablo-D3	the only thing ubuntu did was start with a copy of debian	Sep 18 09:01
Diablo-D3	its gone down hill since	Sep 18 09:01
fewa	I think branding the parts that are differn't to the user is quite smart, and not at all disingenuous	Sep 18 09:01
Diablo-D3	fewa: its rather stupid	Sep 18 09:02
Diablo-D3	debian did it right	Sep 18 09:02
fewa	meh, well ok not smart	Sep 18 09:02
oiaohm	Ubuntu and Debian both have the same problem.	Sep 18 09:02
Diablo-D3	only install a desktop if the user requests it	Sep 18 09:02
fewa	but I have no problem with it	Sep 18 09:02
oiaohm	Very lax in upstreaming alterations fewa	Sep 18 09:02
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] Self-proclaimed "journalist" who plants stories for Microsoft has made transactions with SCO http://ping.fm/sv9Ng		Sep 18 09:02
oiaohm	Without the upstream projects Ubuntu and Debian could not exist.	Sep 18 09:03
fewa	very much true	Sep 18 09:04
fewa	Debian is clear about that	Sep 18 09:04
fewa	we sit at the top and put it all together	Sep 18 09:04
fewa	but thats all we do	Sep 18 09:04
fewa	thats the disengenuous part of Ubuntu	Sep 18 09:04
fewa	they seem to actively put their name where Linux, or GNU, or GNOME, or whatever should be	Sep 18 09:04
fewa	But branding their product to the underlying stuff is OK IMHO, and fits user expectations	Sep 18 09:05
fewa	of those moving from monolithic propritary OSs	Sep 18 09:05
oiaohm	Debian also back ports patches.	Sep 18 09:06
fewa	yes	Sep 18 09:07
Diablo-D3	not really	Sep 18 09:07
fewa	thats a big part too	Sep 18 09:07
Diablo-D3	they quit that practice a long time ago because it doesnt work	Sep 18 09:07
fewa	security patches	Sep 18 09:07
oiaohm	No clear policy on when to terminate of package due to faults.	Sep 18 09:07
fewa	just upgrade to the newest some time	Sep 18 09:07
fewa	when cant be backported	Sep 18 09:07
oiaohm	Again not a valid rule.	Sep 18 09:07
Diablo-D3	if a security problem comes up, even in stable, they just bring in the new version of the program instead of patching it	Sep 18 09:07
fewa	Diablo-D3, no	Sep 18 09:08
Diablo-D3	yes.	Sep 18 09:08
oiaohm	Lot of problems that happen to debian are tracked to bad back ports.	Sep 18 09:08
fewa	they back port alot of kernel problems	Sep 18 09:08
Diablo-D3	you wern't around for the apache fuckup	Sep 18 09:08
fewa	but yes there is both	Sep 18 09:08
Diablo-D3	fewa: erm, you do realize debian's kernel is debian's kernel, right?	Sep 18 09:08
fewa	Ubuntu breaks even more stuff	Sep 18 09:08
fewa	Diablo-D3, yes i do	Sep 18 09:08
oiaohm	When it comes to kernel Ubuntu is better than debain.	Sep 18 09:08
Diablo-D3	its heavily patched and doesn't follow main	Sep 18 09:08
Diablo-D3	due to the fact linus is a fucking moron	Sep 18 09:09
oiaohm	Ubuntu has there kernel setup as a branch off the main kernel.	Sep 18 09:09
Diablo-D3	oiaohm: everyone uses git	Sep 18 09:09
oiaohm	Same with a lot of other distributions.	Sep 18 09:09
Diablo-D3	which is what git was designed for	Sep 18 09:09
fewa	and hardware developers	Sep 18 09:09
oiaohm	Diablo-D3: find debians in git.	Sep 18 09:09
Diablo-D3	it exist	Sep 18 09:09
Diablo-D3	*exists	Sep 18 09:09
oiaohm	Ok where Diablo-D3 I have never come accross it.	Sep 18 09:11
Diablo-D3	ask in the debian kernel channel	Sep 18 09:11
Diablo-D3	its like #debian-kernel or someshit on oftc	Sep 18 09:11
oiaohm	If you look closer debian source still uses Linux standard source patch + patches. Not the git solution.	Sep 18 09:14
Diablo-D3	pretty sure they dont do that anymore	Sep 18 09:15
oiaohm	Debian is the last major distrobution not to be accross to the git system.	Sep 18 09:15
oiaohm	As per normal.	Sep 18 09:15
Diablo-D3	I dont think thats true anymore	Sep 18 09:16
oiaohm	Still true for squeeze.	Sep 18 09:16
oiaohm	Maybe sid is different.	Sep 18 09:16
Diablo-D3	not for the developers, however	Sep 18 09:16
Diablo-D3	the kernels are still built using the patch system	Sep 18 09:16
Diablo-D3	but they maintain everything with git	Sep 18 09:17
Diablo-D3	kernel-package in sid is slowly unwinding all of that	Sep 18 09:17
oiaohm	Ok so another release or 2 before they are full converted.	Sep 18 09:17
Diablo-D3	probably	Sep 18 09:18
Diablo-D3	kernel-package is an almighty piece of shit in some places	Sep 18 09:18
*Diablo-D3 uses it on a daily basis for kernel testing >_>		Sep 18 09:18
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fewa	Diablo-D3, also, if linux is a retard how can he resolve differences and coordinate the goals of thousands of developers	Sep 18 09:24
fewa	and prevent linux from getting forked so successfully	Sep 18 09:24
Diablo-D3	fewa: not really, no.	Sep 18 09:24
Diablo-D3	all he does is wave his dick around and it magically fixes shit	Sep 18 09:24
Diablo-D3	and he wrote git to, basically, prevent forking	Sep 18 09:24
fewa	by making forking really easy?	Sep 18 09:25
Diablo-D3	yup	Sep 18 09:25
Diablo-D3	he can just very painlessly import all patches	Sep 18 09:25
fewa	your logic is impeckable	Sep 18 09:25
Diablo-D3	even if you wanted to fork, he can just suck you back in	Sep 18 09:25
fewa	its not about preventing forking but about enabling coolaberation across forks	Sep 18 09:25
Diablo-D3	which DUN DUN DUN prevents actual forks	Sep 18 09:26
fewa	it prevents a major fork by improving development so much	Sep 18 09:26
Diablo-D3	it turns all forks into parallel development trees	Sep 18 09:26
fewa	Diablo-D3, its not that simply	Sep 18 09:26
fewa	its about improving development	Sep 18 09:26
Diablo-D3	it doesnt improve development however	Sep 18 09:26
Diablo-D3	since he lets people like ingo write code	Sep 18 09:26
fewa	anyways Diablo-D3, im not going to play your blame game	Sep 18 09:26
Diablo-D3	if all of ingo's code was ripped out of the kernel, the kernel would suck 3x less	Sep 18 09:27
Diablo-D3	linus is an idiot because he lets people fuck the kernel up	Sep 18 09:27
Diablo-D3	he doesnt even care about it anymore	Sep 18 09:27
oiaohm	fewa: Linux kernel development depends on forks.	Sep 18 09:27
fewa	If linux was not goot at his job he would be replaced tomarrow	Sep 18 09:27
Diablo-D3	hes too happy whoring himself out people with a lot of money	Sep 18 09:27
fewa	*good	Sep 18 09:27
oiaohm	Always has depend on it.	Sep 18 09:27
fewa	oiaohm, exactly my point	Sep 18 09:27
oiaohm	Before git Linus used another package to manage forks.	Sep 18 09:27
Diablo-D3	linux doesnt depend on forks, oiaohm	Sep 18 09:28
fewa	Linus's job is to keep development directed	Sep 18 09:28
oiaohm	the key bit to keep forks under control is the means to merge.	Sep 18 09:28
Diablo-D3	it depends on parallel development trees	Sep 18 09:28
oiaohm	It does Diablo-D3	Sep 18 09:28
fewa	keep it from needing a fork	Sep 18 09:28
Diablo-D3	a fork implies it never comes back	Sep 18 09:28
fewa	and enabling development	Sep 18 09:28
fewa	with such tools such as git	Sep 18 09:28
oiaohm	No it does not Diablo-D3	Sep 18 09:28
fewa	if Linus did not enable development they would dump him	Sep 18 09:28
Diablo-D3	when I say fork, I mean specifically those kind	Sep 18 09:28
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] #Microsoft Openly Admits #Vista is Not Good; #Vista7 Likely the Same http://ping.fm/0cuJO		Sep 18 09:28
oiaohm	Like the RT tree it started life as a full fork.	Sep 18 09:28
Diablo-D3	oiaohm: and yet, it came back.	Sep 18 09:28
Diablo-D3	thats the problem	Sep 18 09:29
Diablo-D3	no one can escape it	Sep 18 09:29
fewa	Therefore your attacks on him Diablo-D3 are misplaced	Sep 18 09:29
oiaohm	Because git provided a way that it could merge back in.	Sep 18 09:29
Diablo-D3	fewa: not at all	Sep 18 09:29
Diablo-D3	fewa: linus chose to accept ingo's code	Sep 18 09:29
Diablo-D3	so yeah, hes a moron	Sep 18 09:29
oiaohm	Forking and merging make good development.	Sep 18 09:29
Diablo-D3	the scheduler in linux continues to get slower and slower	Sep 18 09:30
oiaohm	Diablo-D3: get over it. Linus has to accept code that does bench mark right.	Sep 18 09:30
oiaohm	Diablo-D3: you are wrong.	Sep 18 09:30
Diablo-D3	oiaohm: the benchmark was flawed	Sep 18 09:30
fewa	good development prevent the need for a permanent fork	Sep 18 09:30
oiaohm	The Linux scheduler lot of cases is turning out not to be the speed problems at all.	Sep 18 09:30
Diablo-D3	oiaohm: and it ended up not being a bug in con's code anyhow	Sep 18 09:30
Diablo-D3	CFS is also covering up a lot of race bugs as well	Sep 18 09:30
Diablo-D3	which I especially don't like	Sep 18 09:30
oiaohm	No matter what format scheduler you have it will hide some race condition bugs and display others.	Sep 18 09:31
Diablo-D3	oiaohm: not true	Sep 18 09:31
oiaohm	That is true.	Sep 18 09:32
Diablo-D3	you could actually have a sched that randomly preempts	Sep 18 09:32
Diablo-D3	it will find _all_ races	Sep 18 09:32
oiaohm	No it will not.	Sep 18 09:32
*MinceR has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out))		Sep 18 09:32
Diablo-D3	your machine wont make it past a few minutes	Sep 18 09:32
*zhrb has quit (Client Quit)		Sep 18 09:32
oiaohm	It can still manage to miss for ever Diablo-D3	Sep 18 09:32
oiaohm	Idea that random would be random.	Sep 18 09:32
fewa	yep	Sep 18 09:33
Diablo-D3	by random I mean hammer the shit out of the kernel in bizzare and new ways	Sep 18 09:33
oiaohm	It will anyways miss something.	Sep 18 09:33
fewa	its why race conditions are so difficult to find	Sep 18 09:33
Diablo-D3	your machine wont make it past a few minutes	Sep 18 09:33
oiaohm	It will.	Sep 18 09:33
Diablo-D3	until most of those are fixed, the kernel will have severe race problems	Sep 18 09:33
Diablo-D3	and a lot of these are easy to fix	Sep 18 09:34
Diablo-D3	put a preempt barrier up	Sep 18 09:34
Diablo-D3	people just never do it in the right places	Sep 18 09:34
oiaohm	The realtime tree is addressing the faults you are taking about.	Sep 18 09:34
Diablo-D3	the realtime tree is pretty much not needed	Sep 18 09:34
oiaohm	Because they want to be able to preempt the CFS at any time.	Sep 18 09:34
oiaohm	And I do mean anytime.	Sep 18 09:34
Diablo-D3	you cant do hard realtime on linux	Sep 18 09:35
oiaohm	LOL	Sep 18 09:35
fewa	lolol	Sep 18 09:35
Diablo-D3	and BFS is much faster than CFS will ever be	Sep 18 09:35
oiaohm	So you did not see phonix	Sep 18 09:35
Diablo-D3	and dun dun dunnn BFS could probably survive being preempted.	Sep 18 09:35
Diablo-D3	so, yet again, mingo fails	Sep 18 09:35
oiaohm	When BFS barely beats CFS in 2.6.31	Sep 18 09:35
oiaohm	I do mean barely.	Sep 18 09:35
Diablo-D3	oiaohm: actually, BFS is a shitload faster than CFS on 2.6.31	Sep 18 09:35
fewa	Linux probably has better allowance of kernel preemption than any other system	Sep 18 09:36
Diablo-D3	I had to use custom settings to get close	Sep 18 09:36
fewa	right?	Sep 18 09:36
Diablo-D3	oiaohm: phoronix tested a rather old BFS	Sep 18 09:36
oiaohm	Note 2.6.32 is a lot faster.	Sep 18 09:36
oiaohm	For CFS	Sep 18 09:36
Diablo-D3	CFS is intergrating some ideas from BFS	Sep 18 09:36
Diablo-D3	which is weird	Sep 18 09:36
*MinceR_ is now known as MinceR		Sep 18 09:36
Diablo-D3	mingo makes it so obvious	Sep 18 09:36
oiaohm	Do you know the biggest speed problems has nothing to do with CFS and BFS	Sep 18 09:36
Diablo-D3	but when you call him on it he furrows his neanderthal brow and swears a lot	Sep 18 09:37
Diablo-D3	oiaohm: depends how you define big	Sep 18 09:37
oiaohm	2.6.32 is a lot faster for desktop because selection of what to send to swap space changed.	Sep 18 09:37
Diablo-D3	on tiny platforms BFS increased speed a large measurable amount	Sep 18 09:37
oiaohm	So effectively doubling performance	Sep 18 09:37
Diablo-D3	2.6.32 will be 0% faster for me	Sep 18 09:37
Diablo-D3	I don't use swap.	Sep 18 09:37
fewa	i heard 50% increase	Sep 18 09:38
oiaohm	LOL	Sep 18 09:38
MinceR	so you waste memory that could be used for disk buffer.	Sep 18 09:38
fewa	so not quite doubling	Sep 18 09:38
fewa	but still a _lot_	Sep 18 09:38
Diablo-D3	and, uh, btw, that fix will probably also increase BFS	Sep 18 09:38
Diablo-D3	so nice try.	Sep 18 09:38
oiaohm	The issue 2.6.32 addess is dumping applications out of memory Diablo-D3	Sep 18 09:38
oiaohm	Due to it already being on disk.	Sep 18 09:38
fewa	from here http://kernelnewbies.org/Linux_2_6_31	Sep 18 09:38
oiaohm	So swap disabled does not prevent the problem.	Sep 18 09:39
Diablo-D3	oiaohm: please dont bring up things that aren't related to CFS	Sep 18 09:39
Diablo-D3	if .32 gets something, .32 running BFS will also get it	Sep 18 09:39
fewa	relly?	Sep 18 09:39
fewa	wow that seems obvious	Sep 18 09:39
oiaohm	The point you like to skip around in BFS changes are not addressing where the errors are.	Sep 18 09:39
Diablo-D3	BFS doesn't magically warp you into some noneuclidean land where oranges mate with apples	Sep 18 09:39
oiaohm	CFS is not either.	Sep 18 09:40
Diablo-D3	oiaohm: you assume that fixing one has ANYHTING ELSE to do with fixing others	Sep 18 09:40
oiaohm	Both are just hiding faults in other areas of the kernel.	Sep 18 09:40
Diablo-D3	it doesnt	Sep 18 09:40
oiaohm	BFS apache speed gain.	Sep 18 09:40
Diablo-D3	on android phones, which google devs have already played around with, BFS increases usability several magnitude	Sep 18 09:40
oiaohm	Guess what it almost completely disappears once kernel stop dropping applications out of memory.	Sep 18 09:41
Diablo-D3	oiaohm: and btw, the memory system also sucks	Sep 18 09:41
oiaohm	Only reason BFS was doing better is that it was swaping between applications faster so preventing memory system stupidity.	Sep 18 09:41
Diablo-D3	but you're trying to state that that matters	Sep 18 09:41
Diablo-D3	guess what oiaohm, people are working on shit	Sep 18 09:41
Diablo-D3	just because con works on bfs doesnt mean someone else cant work on the memory system	Sep 18 09:41
Diablo-D3	this is why we have parallel development	Sep 18 09:42
oiaohm	BFS advantages basically disappear as the other areas get fixed.	Sep 18 09:42
Diablo-D3	not really	Sep 18 09:42
oiaohm	Really.	Sep 18 09:42
Diablo-D3	since CFS executes too much code	Sep 18 09:42
oiaohm	Flawed claim.	Sep 18 09:42
oiaohm	CFS yes runs more code.	Sep 18 09:42
Diablo-D3	you fail at optimization	Sep 18 09:42
oiaohm	But there is a problem ehre.	Sep 18 09:43
Diablo-D3	if you run 80% less code per second and it does the same function, then your code is going to be much faster	Sep 18 09:43
Diablo-D3	period	Sep 18 09:43
oiaohm	BFS does not blance load or be able to make sure applications taht need cpu time get it.	Sep 18 09:43
oiaohm	So you fix one problem to cause another.	Sep 18 09:43
Diablo-D3	huh?	Sep 18 09:43
Diablo-D3	now you're talking nonsense	Sep 18 09:43
oiaohm	I am not.	Sep 18 09:43
Diablo-D3	load balancing only applies to scheds that have multiple queues	Sep 18 09:43
oiaohm	BFS does not do biases well.	Sep 18 09:44
Diablo-D3	multiple queues dont work.	Sep 18 09:44
oiaohm	Biases are needing for items like X11 and pulseaudio	Sep 18 09:44
oiaohm	To make sure they process what they need on time.	Sep 18 09:44
Diablo-D3	biases are not needed at all	Sep 18 09:44
MinceR	pulseaudio doesn't need bias, it needs to be killed with fire. ;)	Sep 18 09:44
oiaohm	So you like audio cracking up of audio	Sep 18 09:44
Diablo-D3	biases cover up bugs in the scheduler	Sep 18 09:44
Diablo-D3	no I dont, which is why I use bfs	Sep 18 09:44
oiaohm	or keyboard input feasing	Sep 18 09:45
Diablo-D3	no I dont, which is why I use bfs	Sep 18 09:45
oiaohm	cfs with preemt does a far better job with both than bfs	Sep 18 09:45
Diablo-D3	I can get lower usable latency in jack with bfs over cfs, and I get much lower input latency in bfs over cfs	Sep 18 09:45
oiaohm	Yes slightly less cpu usable over all bit it gets used where I need it.	Sep 18 09:45
oiaohm	You are not running that system under load Diablo-D3	Sep 18 09:46
oiaohm	That is where Bfs cracks up.	Sep 18 09:46
Diablo-D3	200% load., try again.	Sep 18 09:46
Diablo-D3	<oiaohm> but but but BFS eats babies!	Sep 18 09:46
oiaohm	200 load accross 100 users.	Sep 18 09:46
oiaohm	Yes it breaks up.	Sep 18 09:46
Diablo-D3	seriously, oiaohm, stop with the FUD.	Sep 18 09:46
oiaohm	Particular users end up staved.	Sep 18 09:46
Diablo-D3	processes _can't_ starve, oiaohm	Sep 18 09:47
Diablo-D3	BFS doesnt allow that	Sep 18 09:47
Diablo-D3	CFS _does_	Sep 18 09:47
oiaohm	No.	Sep 18 09:47
oiaohm	users not processes	Sep 18 09:47
oiaohm	don't you get the difference.	Sep 18 09:47
Diablo-D3	there is no difference	Sep 18 09:47
Diablo-D3	nor should you try to make one	Sep 18 09:47
oiaohm	Ie cfs makes sure users all get there fair share of cpu time.	Sep 18 09:47
Diablo-D3	yes, which is wrong	Sep 18 09:47
oiaohm	bfs a user can take up the loin share of cpu time and leave nothing for anyone else.	Sep 18 09:48
Diablo-D3	it allows processes to wait a very long time before being run again	Sep 18 09:48
Diablo-D3	oiaohm: wrong	Sep 18 09:48
oiaohm	It does./	Sep 18 09:48
Diablo-D3	all processes will be run	Sep 18 09:48
Diablo-D3	CFS allows processes to be ran before others who haven't been run for awhile	Sep 18 09:48
Diablo-D3	this is a serious defect	Sep 18 09:48
zlg	CPU throughput is far higher than I/O throughput, so the number or size of the code makes no difference. now CPU usage.,	Sep 18 09:48
oiaohm	If load is still low enough that the people who are getting staved can start processes.	Sep 18 09:48
Diablo-D3	oiaohm: I think you need to learn how stuff works first	Sep 18 09:49
MinceR	zlg: you still need to get that code into the CPU.	Sep 18 09:49
Diablo-D3	you're talking out your ass.	Sep 18 09:49
oiaohm	I am not Diablo-D3	Sep 18 09:49
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[thistleweb] Back to school with RIAA-funded copyright curriculum - Ars Technica http://tinyurl.com/mtoenv		Sep 18 09:49
Diablo-D3	if a process ever gets starved, then the sched has gone wrong.	Sep 18 09:49
Diablo-D3	period.	Sep 18 09:49
Diablo-D3	this is the entire purpose of a deadline scheduler	Sep 18 09:50
zlg	Yes, but you actually do not do that, you have RAM and L1 and L2 and the HD's dual port FIFO buffer.	Sep 18 09:50
Diablo-D3	CFS does not deadline	Sep 18 09:50
oiaohm	deadline does not fit all work loads Diablo-D3	Sep 18 09:50
Diablo-D3	oiaohm: wrong.	Sep 18 09:50
oiaohm	That is the problem Diablo-D3	Sep 18 09:50
Diablo-D3	it fits all workloads	Sep 18 09:50
oiaohm	No it does not.	Sep 18 09:50
MinceR	the whole point of being able to choose schedulers is that you can find the one that fits your requirements best. :>	Sep 18 09:50
Diablo-D3	yes it does.	Sep 18 09:50
oiaohm	Deadline is simpler to Dos attack.	Sep 18 09:51
Diablo-D3	oiaohm: find a workload where CFS is legitimately superior	Sep 18 09:51
Diablo-D3	I can't dos deadline, I run out of cpu time first.	Sep 18 09:51
oiaohm	dos does not have to stop processor.	Sep 18 09:51
Diablo-D3	and yes, I've tried	Sep 18 09:51
oiaohm	Just cause it time time out on respones.	Sep 18 09:51
Diablo-D3	I ran ten thousand processes banging away	Sep 18 09:51
oiaohm	by making process table too large.	Sep 18 09:51
Diablo-D3	X was as smooth as ever	Sep 18 09:51
oiaohm	Its about 2 million by the way.	Sep 18 09:51
Diablo-D3	I did the same on CFS, and everything came to a halt	Sep 18 09:52
Diablo-D3	so yeah, oiaohm, your claim is bullshit.	Sep 18 09:52
oiaohm	I did on a HP unix sever with a deal line.	Sep 18 09:52
Diablo-D3	please stop repeating mingo's fud	Sep 18 09:52
oiaohm	So I do know where to break it.	Sep 18 09:52
Diablo-D3	you're worse than a microsoft fanboy.	Sep 18 09:52
zlg	MincR, Agreed, hourses for courses.	Sep 18 09:54
*_goblin has quit ("Ex-Chat")		Sep 18 09:56
oiaohm	Diablo-D3: Have you tried the evil against BFS yet. The process that starts another process then terminates.	Sep 18 10:01
oiaohm	Yes simple alteration of a fork bomb.	Sep 18 10:01
oiaohm	Ie user split of cpu access prevents a fork bomb from being system crippling.	Sep 18 10:02
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[scientes] @thistleweb @EFF has released a great balanced curriculum to fit the same California mandate http://www.teachingcopyright.org/		Sep 18 10:02
Diablo-D3	oiaohm: Ive actually done worse	Sep 18 10:02
Diablo-D3	a fork bomb written in C	Sep 18 10:03
Diablo-D3	but it doesn't fork, it threads	Sep 18 10:03
Diablo-D3	it threads until it cant thread anymore	Sep 18 10:03
Diablo-D3	X under BFS stays usable	Sep 18 10:03
Diablo-D3	X under CFS chokes after the first few thousand	Sep 18 10:03
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[scientes] @thistleweb @EFF has released a great balanced curriculum to fit the same #California #copyright mandate http://www.teachingcopyright.org/		Sep 18 10:04
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] #FoxNews Brings #Microsoft to #OpenSource http://ping.fm/Rj6Xo		Sep 18 10:07
MinceR	over nine thousand threads!	Sep 18 10:12
zlg	what has MinceR ?	Sep 18 10:14
MinceR	it was a reference you didn't get. :>	Sep 18 10:15
zlg	I see, hahaha, I get jokes :D	Sep 18 10:15
oiaohm	Diablo-D3: try processes Diablo-D3	Sep 18 10:17
oiaohm	You will find out CFS has one fault BFS has the other.	Sep 18 10:17
oiaohm	Both are screwed.	Sep 18 10:17
Diablo-D3	oiaohm: your case sucks however	Sep 18 10:17
Diablo-D3	CFS still fucks up the linux desktop no matter what you say	Sep 18 10:17
oiaohm	does CFS die from too many threads on over all processing. Depends on version one I was dealing with terminated program.	Sep 18 10:19
zlg	you know ofcourse if you dont like something and it does not work for you, you have options.	Sep 18 10:19
oiaohm	Name a program that would normally have 9000 threads that was not trying to harm the system.	Sep 18 10:19
oiaohm	Some times the correct answer is choke.	Sep 18 10:20
oiaohm	What is the point of having a slightly faster desktop if it is more open to attack Diablo-D3	Sep 18 10:21
Diablo-D3	that question is wrong.	Sep 18 10:23
oiaohm	No it not.	Sep 18 10:23
zlg	MincR, ok I do get it ..... now. :)	Sep 18 10:23
Diablo-D3	oiaohm: strawman attacks are lame	Sep 18 10:25
oiaohm	A simple bash script can cause the looping event that provides unlimited processes.	Sep 18 10:25
oiaohm	Same with any other script language.	Sep 18 10:25
oiaohm	So it is the one that happens by human error.	Sep 18 10:26
Diablo-D3	you say that like it matters.	Sep 18 10:26
zlg	would you not need SU to run such a script ?	Sep 18 10:26
Diablo-D3	zlg: no	Sep 18 10:26
Diablo-D3	the script dies normally.	Sep 18 10:26
oiaohm	and started it self again as well Diablo-D3	Sep 18 10:26
oiaohm	So it never stops adding new processes.	Sep 18 10:26
Diablo-D3	yes, and what does this have to do with bfs and cfs?	Sep 18 10:26
Diablo-D3	nothing.	Sep 18 10:27
oiaohm	The always adding new processes is what causes dead lines trouble.	Sep 18 10:27
Diablo-D3	oiaohm: you're using a mingo tactic	Sep 18 10:27
Diablo-D3	you're bringing up something that has nothing to do with anything	Sep 18 10:27
oiaohm	Sorry I am not mingo.	Sep 18 10:27
Diablo-D3	an attack against a machine has nothing to do with low latency desktops	Sep 18 10:28
oiaohm	I am a person who has broken systems. You don't have to only design to cope with load.	Sep 18 10:28
Diablo-D3	the scheduler has nothing to do with the security layer	Sep 18 10:28
oiaohm	Desktops will start sharing scripts.	Sep 18 10:28
oiaohm	So an attack of the style I am describing could become common.	Sep 18 10:29
Diablo-D3	<oiaohm> we'll never need fullscreen flash1	Sep 18 10:29
oiaohm	Wrong Diablo-D3	Sep 18 10:29
oiaohm	Desktop arguement again.	Sep 18 10:29
Diablo-D3	HELLO	Sep 18 10:29
oiaohm	That of crap.	Sep 18 10:29
Diablo-D3	EARTH TO OIAOHM	Sep 18 10:29
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[davidgerard] Girls! Avoid the embarassment of misnaming during sex! (HT @picturecool) http://bit.ly/bH7qL		Sep 18 10:29
Diablo-D3	BFS IS A SCHEDULER FOR LOW LATENCY DESKTOPS	Sep 18 10:29
Diablo-D3	ITS NOT FOR 4096 CPU CLUSTERS	Sep 18 10:29
oiaohm	Sitting duck desktops.	Sep 18 10:29
oiaohm	Waiting for the first drive by.	Sep 18 10:30
Diablo-D3	I think Im going to take this channel off my autojoin	Sep 18 10:30
Diablo-D3	roy wont do anything about the troll problem	Sep 18 10:30
oiaohm	There are ways of doing low latency without forgeting about fork bomb issue.	Sep 18 10:30
Diablo-D3	"issue"	Sep 18 10:31
Diablo-D3	yes, you fix it by not allowing to happen in the first place	Sep 18 10:31
Diablo-D3	the scheduler is not a security measure.	Sep 18 10:31
Diablo-D3	if you're afraid of the big bad fork bomb, use selinux and shut up already.	Sep 18 10:31
oiaohm	Some of it is being smart enough not to allow new processes to keep on being processed before the old ones.	Sep 18 10:32
Diablo-D3	oiaohm: except it doesn't	Sep 18 10:32
Diablo-D3	you fail at comprehending deadlining.	Sep 18 10:32
oiaohm	It does Diablo-D3	Sep 18 10:32
Diablo-D3	in fact, CFS _allows_ this behavior that you just described	Sep 18 10:32
oiaohm	Once you have 20 of them running in BFS	Sep 18 10:32
Diablo-D3	it automatically runs a new fork or thread next	Sep 18 10:32
oiaohm	It loses where it is.	Sep 18 10:32
Diablo-D3	BFS doesn't.	Sep 18 10:32
oiaohm	Last version does.	Sep 18 10:33
oiaohm	CFS has it contoled another way.	Sep 18 10:33
Diablo-D3	CFS biases against new processes	Sep 18 10:33
oiaohm	Yes it allows it but it has user spliting so a fork bomb cannot get it all.	Sep 18 10:33
Diablo-D3	which is a severe bug and can be used to hamper the machine	Sep 18 10:33
oiaohm	Bias against new processes is also about fork bomb control.	Sep 18 10:34
Diablo-D3	almost everything you've described ia s bug in CFS and not in BFS	Sep 18 10:34
oiaohm	Yes it has down sides for desktop.	Sep 18 10:34
oiaohm	But you are not putting up a better way of controling fork bombs.	Sep 18 10:35
oiaohm	Basically you think the issue is desktop only.	Sep 18 10:35
*ziggyfish has quit ("Leaving.")		Sep 18 10:35
oiaohm	Its not. There is a secuirty problem that no one has really worked out a painless way of handling.	Sep 18 10:35
oiaohm	So CFS is a compomise.	Sep 18 10:36
oiaohm	Diablo-D3: do you have any good solutions to the fork bomb problems. This has been the problem all along not seeing that CFS maintainer has more than performance numbers to worry about.	Sep 18 10:37
Diablo-D3	selinux	Sep 18 10:38
oiaohm	Ok selinux does not.	Sep 18 10:39
oiaohm	selinux is not intergrated to monitor numbers of started processes	Sep 18 10:39
Diablo-D3	it can have rules to prevent process and thread spamming.	Sep 18 10:39
oiaohm	Not effectively.	Sep 18 10:39
oiaohm	Turns out those rule processing causes more load than what CFS does now.	Sep 18 10:40
oiaohm	So BFS + selinux backwards.	Sep 18 10:40
oiaohm	As I say there is no good existing solution for the problem Diablo-D3	Sep 18 10:41
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] #Patents Under Fire While #Microsoft Escapes Patent #Law (Again) http://ping.fm/lcO27		Sep 18 10:41
oiaohm	CFS is just the best of a bad set of options for dealing with it.	Sep 18 10:41
oiaohm	Diablo-D3: basically if you can design a solution that deals with fork bombs well you will be popular.	Sep 18 10:44
oiaohm	yep its one issue why CK is not getting any where and he is not working on it.	Sep 18 10:46
schestowitz	http://www.theregister.co.uk/2009/09/17/google_hugs_microsoft_over_html5/	Sep 18 10:46
oiaohm	MS had no option.	Sep 18 10:47
oiaohm	They were going to be the ownly browser without it.	Sep 18 10:47
schestowitz	GULP	Sep 18 10:48
schestowitz	Carl Howe	Sep 18 10:48
schestowitz	Director	Sep 18 10:48
schestowitz	Yankee Group	Sep 18 10:48
schestowitz	He's THERE now?	Sep 18 10:48
schestowitz	oiaohm: what about svg?	Sep 18 10:49
oiaohm	IE does support svg evily.	Sep 18 10:49
oiaohm	By a CSS script schestowitz	Sep 18 10:49
schestowitz	Opera browser bids for America < http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/technology/8261980.stm >	Sep 18 10:49
schestowitz	oiaohm: Google injected it into IE	Sep 18 10:49
oiaohm	MS said it could be done that way.	Sep 18 10:50
oiaohm	Ie the CSS way of doing svg is slow as crud.	Sep 18 10:50
oiaohm	Now lets see how bad MS does video in web page.	Sep 18 10:50
schestowitz	"A laugh track, sometimes called canned laughter by critics, is a collection of pre-recorded audience laughs and applause sounds added to television programs during post-production. A laugh track's main purpose is to trigger a response from home viewers who may not understand all of the intended humor during a taped sitcom."	Sep 18 10:53
schestowitz	http://www.wisegeek.com/what-is-a-laugh-track.htm	Sep 18 10:53
schestowitz	http://techdirt.com/articles/20090914/0259236178.shtml	Sep 18 10:53
schestowitz	IBM 'owns' it now	Sep 18 10:53
schestowitz	oiaohm: Microsoft does it with its codecs and Silver Lie	Sep 18 10:54
schestowitz	It has vested interests	Sep 18 10:54
schestowitz	http://techdirt.com/articles/20090917/0354056223.shtml (UK Libel Laws, Scientific Criticism, Chilling Effects, Bloggers And The Streisand Effect)	Sep 18 10:58
schestowitz	Jeremy Piven Sends Cease & Desist To Stop Play From Mocking Him < http://techdirt.com/articles/20090917/0236006220.shtml >	Sep 18 10:59
schestowitz	Post newspaper era ought to be interesting..... Is It Possible For Newspapers To Save Themselves? < http://techdirt.com/articles/20090917/0244106221.shtml >	Sep 18 11:01
schestowitz	"California Court: Only Reveal Anonymous Commenters If They're The People This Guy Thinks They Are" http://techdirt.com/articles/20090917/0200546217.shtml	Sep 18 11:04
fewa	look how the media is directly opposed to the unions on the taxing of medical benifits	Sep 18 11:04
fewa	ahh damn	Sep 18 11:05
fewa	i cant link to it cause its a stupid AJAX page	Sep 18 11:05
fewa	http://whereistand.com/177534 --> public figures	Sep 18 11:05
fewa	or http://whereistand.com/ --> organizations	Sep 18 11:05
oiaohm	So I don't want to be on slashdot site fewa	Sep 18 11:06
fewa	oiaohm, ?	Sep 18 11:06
oiaohm	Not making it simple to link to fewa	Sep 18 11:07
fewa	ahh	Sep 18 11:08
oiaohm	Yes I am a bit warped.	Sep 18 11:08
fewa	you can actually link on slashdot	Sep 18 11:08
fewa	reddit is the best though	Sep 18 11:08
fewa	for linking	Sep 18 11:08
oiaohm	http://www.phoronix.com/scan.php?page=news_item&px=NzU0MA << Hmm something odd is going on here.	Sep 18 11:08
oiaohm	Who would think Nvidia would release any interfaces for there cards open source.	Sep 18 11:10
fewa	Taxing medical care is taxing people ability to get care	Sep 18 11:10
fewa	there is a reason they don't apply sales tax to food	Sep 18 11:10
oiaohm	Ok here there is charities that are tax free.	Sep 18 11:12
oiaohm	So result of taxing anything hard chartities get them.	Sep 18 11:12
fewa	what are you saying?	Sep 18 11:14
oiaohm	Australian tax system.	Sep 18 11:14
fewa	but you havnt explained it	Sep 18 11:15
oiaohm	They put gst on sales of secound hand items. So now most secound hand stores are going charities because they don't have to pay the tax.	Sep 18 11:15
oiaohm	And it happened many times over here.	Sep 18 11:16
fewa	lol	Sep 18 11:16
fewa	charities here have to pay taxes too	Sep 18 11:16
fewa	o wait	Sep 18 11:16
fewa	do people donate the items	Sep 18 11:16
fewa	and then they give them to the end user?	Sep 18 11:16
oiaohm	Mixture	Sep 18 11:16
oiaohm	Some donated some they have aquired.	Sep 18 11:16
fewa	cause under US law thats what you would have to do	Sep 18 11:16
fewa	US tax law on non-profits is very strict	Sep 18 11:17
oiaohm	Yes our non-profits law is more open.	Sep 18 11:17
oiaohm	its where the income is going is important here.	Sep 18 11:17
fewa	There are tax exclusions, but you have to carefully account things	Sep 18 11:17
fewa	at least for the 501(c)3	Sep 18 11:17
fewa	which gives doners tax deductability	Sep 18 11:17
oiaohm	We have charities all ready running retirement homes.	Sep 18 11:18
fewa	the biggest loop hole in charity tax law here is churches	Sep 18 11:18
fewa	they get away with alot	Sep 18 11:18
oiaohm	We have a few church run hospitials here.	Sep 18 11:18
oiaohm	Yep tax loop holes being exploited all over the place.	Sep 18 11:18
fewa	especially since its _really_ easy to be classified as a church in the US	Sep 18 11:18
fewa	for example scentology	Sep 18 11:18
oiaohm	So make some form of church were giving medicial care was doing you religous duty hell tax hole.	Sep 18 11:19
fewa	While I think non-profits churches can be run, its cool when churches can really serve communities and remain open despite poor clientele, little donations	Sep 18 11:19
fewa	they should not be able to do business under that tax shelter	Sep 18 11:19
fewa	only be a church with a limited number of functions	Sep 18 11:20
fewa	for example I believe churches are immune from property tax	Sep 18 11:20
fewa	1) that could be a break of the separation of church and state, if the church is doing business at the place where they get tax immunity	Sep 18 11:21
fewa	2) if they get such exclusions they should not be able to make their institutions private clubs	Sep 18 11:22
fewa	oiaohm, well, if it was a charity I fully support that	Sep 18 11:22
fewa	but only if it is charity	Sep 18 11:22
fewa	for example, think of Remote Area Medical	Sep 18 11:22
fewa	groups like that need an environment where they can do their work	Sep 18 11:23
fewa	http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ht_W5_Ogh0U http://www.democracynow.org/2009/7/22/uninsured_travel_from_across_us_for	Sep 18 11:23
fewa	that youtube is good, from Real Time with Bill Maher	Sep 18 11:24
oiaohm	http://blogs.zdnet.com/microsoft/?p=4003 << Hmm student get Windows 7 cheep.	Sep 18 11:24
fewa	oiaohm, cheap is relative http://www.codinghorror.com/blog/archives/001301.html	Sep 18 11:33
fewa	Nike creates "Nike stores" in mall that are designed to lose money	Sep 18 11:34
fewa	What they do is place Nike shoes on pedestals with exorbitantly high price tags	Sep 18 11:34
fewa	to create the illusion of value	Sep 18 11:34
Diablo-D3	fewa: ugh	Sep 18 11:34
Diablo-D3	you know what I hate?	Sep 18 11:34
fewa	when the people in china, in vietname, in laos, who make those shoes, get under a dollar a shoe	Sep 18 11:34
Diablo-D3	nike shoes	Sep 18 11:34
Diablo-D3	not only are they vastly inferior quality	Sep 18 11:35
Diablo-D3	they cost money	Sep 18 11:35
fewa	this is like "cheap" Windows	Sep 18 11:35
Diablo-D3	I can own a non-AAA brand of sneakers for yeaaaaaarrs	Sep 18 11:35
schestowitz	Nike is cr*p	Sep 18 11:35
fewa	Microsoft would pay you to use their software	Sep 18 11:35
schestowitz	My Nike shoes always fall apart fast	Sep 18 11:36
oiaohm	Rebboks are good shoes but someone need to work on there shoe coloring system. All the ones I have had end up bare leather.	Sep 18 11:36
schestowitz	It's all branding, like Cola	Sep 18 11:36
Diablo-D3	a pair of nikes would cost me like 10 times more and last a year	Sep 18 11:36
Diablo-D3	I actually wish I could afford to have a pair of nice shoes cobbled	Sep 18 11:36
fewa	as it is free to provide to one additional person, they just make a copy. And it increases the market effects value of their platform	Sep 18 11:36
schestowitz	oiaohm: yes, Reebok works well for me	Sep 18 11:36
schestowitz	But the crime there is to do with wage slavery	Sep 18 11:36
schestowitz	There's no police to investigate this human rights issue	Sep 18 11:37
fewa	all clothes here are like that	Sep 18 11:37
oiaohm	I wish I could get Reeboks without there come off shoe coating and apply my own.	Sep 18 11:37
oiaohm	Then i could get about 6 years our a pair of shoes.	Sep 18 11:37
fewa	I cannot find clothes that are actually based on the cost it tool to produce them	Sep 18 11:37
fewa	its not a functioning market	Sep 18 11:37
fewa	it the science of exploitation	Sep 18 11:37
oiaohm	instead of 3 year work and 3 years home.	Sep 18 11:37
fewa	the cotton in a shirt costs 20c	Sep 18 11:37
oiaohm	Because the color of shoe is stuffed up.	Sep 18 11:37
fewa	the labor costs 20c	Sep 18 11:37
fewa	and they sell the shirt for $11	Sep 18 11:37
fewa	its rediculous	Sep 18 11:38
Diablo-D3	fewa: see, you know whats retarded?	Sep 18 11:38
Diablo-D3	we still have humans doing this work	Sep 18 11:38
Diablo-D3	humans cause inferior quality	Sep 18 11:38
oiaohm	Problem here how many shirts get recycled because no one buys them fewa	Sep 18 11:38
fewa	if they sold for the price of doing business then maybe there would be some equalization of wealth	Sep 18 11:38
oiaohm	Its not just the cost of making them its the shipping and waste.	Sep 18 11:38
fewa	paying people little is OK, if labor costs are based on the value created--it would just create deflation	Sep 18 11:39
oiaohm	Humans are a very wasteful creature.	Sep 18 11:39
fewa	lower the prices of everything	Sep 18 11:39
fewa	oiaohm, yeah, and they don't even recycle the cotton like they use to	Sep 18 11:39
fewa	instead they just grow more, shrinking the caspian sea even more	Sep 18 11:40
Diablo-D3	aslo	Sep 18 11:40
Diablo-D3	where the hell are my microfiber hemp tshirts	Sep 18 11:40
Diablo-D3	I want a tshirt that lasts longer than I do, is more fade resistant, breaths better, resists tearing and threading and nuddling, lighter, and more fire resistant	Sep 18 11:41
Diablo-D3	lets face it, cotton sucks for materials	Sep 18 11:41
Diablo-D3	and half polyester half cotton shirts are a hack	Sep 18 11:41
fewa	wait, aral sea	Sep 18 11:41
fewa	which is almost gone	Sep 18 11:41
fewa	http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aral_Sea	Sep 18 11:41
oiaohm	for fabric one of the best is hemp. Problem is no where want to allow it grown in large ammounts.	Sep 18 11:41
Diablo-D3	Seriously, if we're going to be pissed at shit, lets choose shit that is more important here	Sep 18 11:42
fewa	and hemp doesn't cause the massive environmental destruction that help causes	Sep 18 11:42
Diablo-D3	I have a right to superior products!	Sep 18 11:42
fewa	hemp makes the soil better	Sep 18 11:42
Diablo-D3	I am an american!	Sep 18 11:42
fewa	extremely sustainable crop	Sep 18 11:42
zlg	cotten and wool are quite fire resistant, that's why firefighters are not allowed to wear nylog jocks	Sep 18 11:42
zlg	nylon*	Sep 18 11:42
Diablo-D3	zlg: no, nylon _melts_	Sep 18 11:42
oiaohm	hemp and cotten are equally fire resistant.	Sep 18 11:43
Diablo-D3	cotton is inferior to hemp under fire resistance	Sep 18 11:43
fewa	http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ne9UF-pFhJY	Sep 18 11:43
zlg	Thats right melts and BURNS.	Sep 18 11:43
fewa	Hemp for Victory!	Sep 18 11:43
Diablo-D3	hemp can do what cotton does with addatives	Sep 18 11:43
Diablo-D3	said addatives cause cancer and skin irritation	Sep 18 11:43
oiaohm	there is a lot of work to produce hemp without the drug part.	Sep 18 11:43
fewa	shows the corruption	Sep 18 11:44
oiaohm	Because if that works well it can replace cotton.	Sep 18 11:44
oiaohm	Biggest issue is that burning hemp can become a little bit of a problem.	Sep 18 11:44
zlg	hemp was used far before it was really used as a drug, remember help rope, and they have thc free hemp now and for a long time.	Sep 18 11:45
Diablo-D3	hemp has useless levels of THC, oiaohm	Sep 18 11:45
Diablo-D3	hemp was never a drug, zlg	Sep 18 11:45
Diablo-D3	you're thinking of pot	Sep 18 11:45
zlg	it's the same geanus	Sep 18 11:45
zlg	satvia	Sep 18 11:46
Diablo-D3	yes, but one contains THC, the other really doesnt	Sep 18 11:46
oiaohm	Hemp and pot were the same plant. Only in modern day times has a genically altered one that people call hemp come into existance with ower THC.	Sep 18 11:46
oiaohm	ower/lower	Sep 18 11:46
oiaohm	Note not 0	Sep 18 11:47
oiaohm	So far 0 has not be achieved.	Sep 18 11:47
fewa	meh its not a problem in burning it	Sep 18 11:47
fewa	the modern hemp has much less THC than help of 1900	Sep 18 11:47
fewa	which was already extremely low	Sep 18 11:47
fewa	I'm sure they could get it lower if they wanted	Sep 18 11:47
zlg	in fact with selective breading, modern pot has much higher THC to THA ratio, ie it's more potent.	Sep 18 11:48
oiaohm	The burning is not just drug. Its tar production as well.	Sep 18 11:48
fewa	to het high you would have to breath tons and tons of it	Sep 18 11:48
fewa	ahhh, ok	Sep 18 11:48
fewa	tar is valuable	Sep 18 11:48
fewa	if it can be purified	Sep 18 11:48
fewa	we are using oil to produce tar	Sep 18 11:49
fewa	but that is not replentishable	Sep 18 11:49
oiaohm	But not when you are breathing it.	Sep 18 11:49
oiaohm	Because it is burning.	Sep 18 11:49
fewa	well yeah	Sep 18 11:49
fewa	there are probably better ways of burning it	Sep 18 11:49
fewa	processing the dust	Sep 18 11:49
fewa	coal dust is certainly much woorse	Sep 18 11:49
zlg	also use oil to make nylon and plastics	Sep 18 11:49
fewa	and we burn tons of dust	Sep 18 11:49
oiaohm	So a form that burns clean or burns low tar for something that might get lit up would be better.	Sep 18 11:49
fewa	*tons of coal	Sep 18 11:50
oiaohm	Note cotton does burn low tar.	Sep 18 11:50
fewa	you can also not burn it , but compost it	Sep 18 11:50
fewa	composts great	Sep 18 11:50
fewa	and nylon doesn't at all	Sep 18 11:50
fewa	and cotton, extremely poorely	Sep 18 11:51
oiaohm	I was thinking for something you are wearing firer fighting.	Sep 18 11:51
fewa	for a biological thing	Sep 18 11:51
fewa	ahh	Sep 18 11:51
oiaohm	You have enouth problems without what you are wearing being a threat.	Sep 18 11:51
fewa	well thats specialist	Sep 18 11:51
fewa	im not too interested in that	Sep 18 11:51
fewa	and they already have alot of solutions for that	Sep 18 11:51
oiaohm	I would like to see some of the items allowed into houses cleaned up.	Sep 18 11:52
oiaohm	A lot of people die due to toxic smoke in house fires.	Sep 18 11:52
fewa	thats really hard to prevent	Sep 18 11:52
oiaohm	Were 1 or 2 breaths of it and you are done.	Sep 18 11:52
fewa	_tons_ of stuff in houses is toxic if burned	Sep 18 11:52
fewa	all plastic	Sep 18 11:52
fewa	most electronics	Sep 18 11:53
fewa	ROHS is great	Sep 18 11:53
fewa	cleaning up the act of highly polluting electronics	Sep 18 11:53
fewa	for example iPods	Sep 18 11:53
oiaohm	Not all plastics	Sep 18 11:54
fewa	all the oil-based ones	Sep 18 11:54
oiaohm	Not even all oil-based ones.	Sep 18 11:54
oiaohm	The worse ones burn to release a nevese system poison.	Sep 18 11:55
fewa	what plastics do not produce diaxanon when burned	Sep 18 11:55
fewa	??	Sep 18 11:55
fewa	diazanon	Sep 18 11:55
fewa	thats the nervous system poison ur talking about	Sep 18 11:55
oiaohm	Some of the colourings in the plastics react in the burn preventing diazanon from forming.	Sep 18 11:56
fewa	http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Diazinon one of the worst poisons known to man	Sep 18 11:56
oiaohm	Its not all.	Sep 18 11:56
oiaohm	Just god darn most. I don't think lot of people would like if there items where bright purple.	Sep 18 11:57
fewa	well ok, i remain mostly right	Sep 18 11:57
fewa	cause i have not seen such plastics	Sep 18 11:57
fewa	the native americans here burn plastic	Sep 18 11:57
fewa	it is horrible	Sep 18 11:57
fewa	they don't know better	Sep 18 11:58
fewa	*some of them	Sep 18 11:58
zlg	Arnt you glad electronics are no longer producted with this stuff in it, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Polychlorinated_biphenyl	Sep 18 11:58
oiaohm	What do you mean not producted with that stuff zlg	Sep 18 11:59
oiaohm	Not all third world places have stoped using it.	Sep 18 11:59
zlg	ive seen it in use here in Australia as well for military applications, but it's still nasty stuff. like berillium	Sep 18 12:00
fewa	thats why im happy about ROHS	Sep 18 12:01
fewa	US government is too in the hands of the big corps to do things like that these days	Sep 18 12:01
fewa	it use to be the best	Sep 18 12:02
fewa	and ROHS improves all electronics	Sep 18 12:02
zlg	yes, we were in a continuous process of removing it and onsite storage of it.	Sep 18 12:02
fewa	I guess California has done some stuff	Sep 18 12:03
fewa	they collect a recycle surcharge on LCD and CRT monitors now	Sep 18 12:03
fewa	to cover state recycling	Sep 18 12:03
zlg	they should charge the manufacturer the cost of effective and safe disposal.	Sep 18 12:04
fewa	they are effectively doing that	Sep 18 12:04
fewa	if you buy it and live in the state of calif	Sep 18 12:05
zlg	yes, ive seen some of that myself.	Sep 18 12:05
fewa	the seller has to collect that surcharge	Sep 18 12:05
fewa	which is a cost-based charge on the products future recycling	Sep 18 12:05
fewa	here people use to give the broken monitors to a charity/second hand shop	Sep 18 12:06
fewa	because its a good business that recycles them	Sep 18 12:06
fewa	but it stop accepting them cause too many people did it, people who don't want to pay $9 to do the right thing	Sep 18 12:06
zlg	thats another reason why I use something until it breaks, then I replace it and upgrade. But not before	Sep 18 12:06
fewa	meh, with computer you have to upgrade eventually	Sep 18 12:07
fewa	so you have to focus instead of having the electronics recyclable	Sep 18 12:07
fewa	thats why RoHS is so important	Sep 18 12:07
zlg	fewa as it should be, it had to be paid by someone so before it is recycled.	Sep 18 12:07
fewa	we really need talk-back rules	Sep 18 12:07
fewa	any electronics have to be taken back by the manufacture and properly recycled	Sep 18 12:08
zlg	Junked electronics has more gold and precious metals then the equivalent raw ore from the best mines.	Sep 18 12:08
fewa	problem is that they tend to smuggle the electronics illegally to china, where they are dumped	Sep 18 12:08
fewa	http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Electronic_waste	Sep 18 12:08
zlg	and in china OH&S is not a big thing	Sep 18 12:08
fewa	zlg, still costs money to recycle in a way that doesn't hurt the environment	Sep 18 12:09
zlg	sure does.	Sep 18 12:09
fewa	thats why its illegal to export e-waste	Sep 18 12:09
schestowitz	Unless it's Africa	Sep 18 12:09
fewa	I realized dban is made by a recycling company	Sep 18 12:09
fewa	http://www.dban.org/	Sep 18 12:09
fewa	yeah they "give" them used computers	Sep 18 12:09
fewa	that are worthless, so they have to take the poisonous chemicals	Sep 18 12:10
oiaohm	Harddrives are getting too large to dban.	Sep 18 12:10
fewa	http://www.geepglobal.com/	Sep 18 12:10
fewa	oiaohm, does it not support 48-bit LBA?	Sep 18 12:11
fewa	the 137GB limit?	Sep 18 12:11
fewa	or just the time	Sep 18 12:11
oiaohm	Time	Sep 18 12:12
oiaohm	dban uses a linux kernel so not that limited.	Sep 18 12:12
oiaohm	250GB on a lot of drives single pass takes 8 hours.	Sep 18 12:13
fewa	ahh, they do it in an automated manner	Sep 18 12:13
oiaohm	1TB drives are getting kinda insane to Dban.	Sep 18 12:13
fewa	"EBAN"	Sep 18 12:13
oiaohm	Lot don't.	Sep 18 12:13
fewa	with netbooking	Sep 18 12:13
fewa	*netbooting	Sep 18 12:13
trmanco	http://amarok.kde.org/en/releases/2.2/beta/2	Sep 18 12:14
oiaohm	It still having the hardware to do it fewa	Sep 18 12:14
oiaohm	Along with the space and them time fewa	Sep 18 12:14
fewa	well they are liquidating existing computers	Sep 18 12:14
fewa	thats their business	Sep 18 12:14
fewa	liquidation of used electronics	Sep 18 12:14
oiaohm	I work when I have time with a group refurbishing and recycling old computers.	Sep 18 12:15
fewa	there is a group that does that here	Sep 18 12:15
oiaohm	Lot of companies will only give drives once they are cleared by them.	Sep 18 12:15
fewa	well dban was made so they would give assurances to companies	Sep 18 12:16
oiaohm	Problem is we see drives are going to dry up or be made useless.	Sep 18 12:16
oiaohm	Drives cleared by coil method only about 1 in 10 work at best.	Sep 18 12:16
fewa	coil method?	Sep 18 12:16
oiaohm	degausing the drive completely.	Sep 18 12:16
oiaohm	Takes about 42 seconds.	Sep 18 12:16
fewa	still not sure what that is	Sep 18 12:17
fewa	ahh	Sep 18 12:17
fewa	magnet	Sep 18 12:17
oiaohm	Electo magnet	Sep 18 12:17
oiaohm	changing a lot.	Sep 18 12:17
fewa	yeah thats how you hack into web sites :P	Sep 18 12:17
fewa	just put a strong magnet next to your hard drive :P	Sep 18 12:18
oiaohm	Altering magnet is required.	Sep 18 12:18
oiaohm	To degaus effectively.	Sep 18 12:18
fewa	yeah ic/no	Sep 18 12:18
oiaohm	Fixed direction does not create back ground noise to hide the data for good.	Sep 18 12:19
oiaohm	Yes it very destuctive on the live of drive.	Sep 18 12:19
oiaohm	Lot of drives these days go up in secound hand auctions here degaused to death.	Sep 18 12:21
oiaohm	Nothing mechanically wrong with drive other than the platers being too scambled to write or read from anymore.	Sep 18 12:22
zlg	it's crazy to subject a HD to that, if that is what you're talking about, bulk errasers are for tape, I would hate to imagine what effect the eddy currents would be doing to the electronics and read head.	Sep 18 12:24
zlg	that's amateur hour stuff.	Sep 18 12:25
oiaohm	Yep why its only 1 in 10 drives work as best.	Sep 18 12:25
oiaohm	Supprising most controllers and heads live.	Sep 18 12:25
oiaohm	Lot of them if you have other drives of the same type with dead controls/heads you can swap the parts. I do have a clean room box for it zlg	Sep 18 12:26
oiaohm	I would say only about 1 in 100 drive heads die from it.	Sep 18 12:26
zlg	I bet the bulk earser fixes the medium with too much force more than the gauss that the write head can generate.	Sep 18 12:26
oiaohm	And about 1 in 2000 controllers.	Sep 18 12:26
oiaohm	Yep zlg and its being able to undo the damage.	Sep 18 12:27
oiaohm	Without pushing it too much the other way.	Sep 18 12:27
oiaohm	Ie the area where the write head can alter in field is not that large.	Sep 18 12:28
zlg	in theory if you do it right, like you have to do to degauss and CRT then you probably would get away with it.	Sep 18 12:28
oiaohm	Its doing it right bit.	Sep 18 12:29
zlg	there are other far more eligant methods to ensure a blank HD that's for sure.	Sep 18 12:29
oiaohm	Melt it is the simplest.	Sep 18 12:30
oiaohm	Ok no drive but no data coming back either.	Sep 18 12:30
zlg	like the guy in "the core" dumping his CD's in the microwave when the feds raided him.	Sep 18 12:32
zlg	he also used a bulk erraser on his HD's too.	Sep 18 12:32
oiaohm	CD in microwave funny enough depending in brand does not always destory the data.	Sep 18 12:34
oiaohm	Some brands it only takes the back coating off. Put it in some brands of dvd rom drives and it reads perfectly.	Sep 18 12:34
zlg	looks good :)	Sep 18 12:34
oiaohm	Since they are not depending on the back reflective coating.	Sep 18 12:34
oiaohm	I also find those drives handy for disks that have damaged backs.	Sep 18 12:35
fewa	cool	Sep 18 12:36
MinceR	what brands?	Sep 18 12:39
oiaohm	MinceR: Not going to say. Yes spoil sport. If people near me work out what I am using I will not make some of the recovery profit getting there dvd's and games back.	Sep 18 12:46
MinceR	:)	Sep 18 12:46
oiaohm	I was mean enough to recase a few of them into different brands. ie brands that will not work.	Sep 18 12:47
fewa	http://img.thedailywtf.com/images/200906/errord/wtf--2.jpg	Sep 18 12:53
Diablo-D3	ffffffff	Sep 18 12:54
Diablo-D3	fewa: at least they're honest	Sep 18 12:54
zlg	it's ok it's not under "services".	Sep 18 12:55
schestowitz	Google easter eggs: 15 best hidden jokes http://www.telegraph.co.uk/technology/google/6201814/Google-easter-eggs-15-best-hidden-jokes.html	Sep 18 12:57
schestowitz	Seagate Unveils Filesharing Hardware For The Home http://www.informationweek.com/news/hardware/peripherals/showArticle.jhtml?articleID=220000768	Sep 18 12:58
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[thistleweb] RT: @scientes: @EFF has released a great balanced curriculum to fit the same #California #copyright mandate http://tinyurl.com/o59bxj		Sep 18 12:58
schestowitz	MacForensicsLab Inc. Releases Free Tool for Investigating Crimes Against Children http://www.reuters.com/article/pressRelease/idUS120586+17-Sep-2009+BW20090917	Sep 18 13:00
schestowitz	Ewwww... wine. http://jaxov.com/2009/09/how-to-access-mozilla-firefox-cache-in-ubuntu-linux/	Sep 18 13:00
fewa	http://img.thedailywtf.com/images/200905/errord/password.png	Sep 18 13:01
schestowitz	Must be bad coding	Sep 18 13:05
fewa	windows idiocy http://img.thedailywtf.com/images/200909/err1/times_square_ss.jpg	Sep 18 13:05
schestowitz	Advert	Sep 18 13:08
fewa	yeah	Sep 18 13:09
fewa	free one too	Sep 18 13:09
fewa	(perhaps)	Sep 18 13:09
schestowitz	THey know why they put the logo there	Sep 18 13:20
MinceR	:)	Sep 18 13:21
schestowitz	http://www.usatoday.com/news/world/2009-09-18-pakistan-violence_N.htm	Sep 18 13:25
schestowitz	[IMG] http://www.blogicalthoughts.com/images/signs/1030_signs.jpg	Sep 18 13:29
fewa	looks shooped	Sep 18 13:31
oiaohm	http://blackbag.nl/?p=940 << Hmm opps key cloning might get too simple.	Sep 18 13:33
fewa	schestowitz, what happens when USA decides its going to colonize the place for the next 50 years	Sep 18 13:34
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[d235j] Looks like the Philadelphia library system will remain open! http://tinyurl.com/loxxmc @doctorow @gruber		Sep 18 13:34
schestowitz	See first pic here: http://arstechnica.com/hardware/news/2009/09/a-trip-down-memory-lane-and-beyond-at-vintage-computer-fest.ars	Sep 18 13:34
fewa	US involvement has created a rise in the taliban there	Sep 18 13:35
schestowitz	Now worries	Sep 18 13:35
schestowitz	Just keep the Gates shut	Sep 18 13:35
schestowitz	http://www.wired.com/gadgetlab/2009/09/verizon-smartphones/	Sep 18 13:35
fewa	so true	Sep 18 13:36
schestowitz	The future is now gasp Wikileaks is hosting a copy of the "1,841,177 post codes together with precise geographic coordinates and other information" for the UK.	Sep 18 13:36
fewa	they use a propritary stack, not even any java	Sep 18 13:37
schestowitz	http://www.boingboing.net/2009/09/17/britains-postal-code.html	Sep 18 13:37
schestowitz	http://www.reghardware.co.uk/2009/09/17/peugeot_bb1/	Sep 18 13:37
fewa	which is standard in phones	Sep 18 13:37
fewa	no sim cards	Sep 18 13:37
fewa	completely closed network	Sep 18 13:37
fewa	europe is so much better	Sep 18 13:37
schestowitz	I'm sure it matter more which model they put in the ads	Sep 18 13:37
fewa	yeah you have to pay for GPS	Sep 18 13:37
schestowitz	Many "consumers" don't look at technical details	Sep 18 13:37
fewa	ive bought other pay as you go phones where the gps works even if you dont have any service	Sep 18 13:38
schestowitz	They are interested in which celebrity uses what	Sep 18 13:38
fewa	big thing is it is not your phone	Sep 18 13:38
fewa	that needs to be pressed	Sep 18 13:38
fewa	and consumer protection needs to force them to disclaim that	Sep 18 13:38
zlg	the GPS reciever does not rely on the phone having a service.	Sep 18 13:38
schestowitz	Uncle Sam Eyes Vehicle Tracking Tax http://www.thetruthaboutcars.com/uncle-sam-eyes-vehicle-tracking-tax/	Sep 18 13:38
fewa	you dont one a computer unless you can change the software	Sep 18 13:38
fewa	zlg, but verizon phones are defective by design	Sep 18 13:39
schestowitz	fewa: BUT...	Sep 18 13:39
schestowitz	You do own it if it accepts another OS	Sep 18 13:39
fewa	*ownn	Sep 18 13:39
schestowitz	A free one	Sep 18 13:39
schestowitz	Even Macs allow this	Sep 18 13:39
fewa	exactly	Sep 18 13:39
schestowitz	Not TiVo	Sep 18 13:39
fewa	thats ability to change the software	Sep 18 13:39
fewa	even if only at the lowest level	Sep 18 13:39
fewa	you cant do that with phones	Sep 18 13:39
zlg	you own many computers that you do not have access to the code.	Sep 18 13:39
fewa	they use trecherous computing	Sep 18 13:39
schestowitz	'Rich Seattle suburbs install ubiquitous surveillance cameras, cops follow all "suspicious" vehicles' http://www.boingboing.net/2009/09/16/rich-seattle-suburbs.html	Sep 18 13:40
fewa	for example, Apple defending of security through obscurity on the iPhone	Sep 18 13:40
fewa	they said that if the FTC says unlocking iPhones is legal, that it will kill people calling 911	Sep 18 13:40
fewa	if that is so, then obviously their network sucks, and needs to be redesigned	Sep 18 13:40
fewa	just playing the fear card	Sep 18 13:41
zlg	it's a legal requirement that cell phone can call 911 (000) without a service provider	Sep 18 13:42
trmanco	http://www.redmondpie.com/wp-content/uploads/2009/07/189156801.png	Sep 18 13:42
fewa	i know	Sep 18 13:42
fewa	Apple was lying that "evil hackers" would clog up the tubes	Sep 18 13:42
fewa	and their whole network would break	Sep 18 13:42
fewa	and claiming that their network was completely insecure	Sep 18 13:42
fewa	personally, I will never use a smartphone until I can get root	Sep 18 13:43
fewa	and there is realy software for it	Sep 18 13:43
fewa	*real	Sep 18 13:43
fewa	or just put phone into a netbook	Sep 18 13:44
zlg	I just want to be able to make and receive calls :)	Sep 18 13:44
fewa	but of course you cant do that, because the cell phone companies are the most un-net-neutral closed systems in the country	Sep 18 13:44
fewa	zlg, agreed	Sep 18 13:44
fewa	thats i will use a "phone" for	Sep 18 13:45
fewa	*thats all	Sep 18 13:45
fewa	its a business model based on ripping people off with overages	Sep 18 13:45
fewa	lock in	Sep 18 13:45
fewa	and running on the back of public airwaves	Sep 18 13:45
*wallclimber (n=ozma@ip98-165-33-243.ph.ph.cox.net) has joined #boycottnovell		Sep 18 13:45
zlg	mine does heaps of things, including working as a high speed digital model, camera, music and video player, all the usual crap. (that I never use), Even video phone :)	Sep 18 13:46
fewa	but you have to pay for everything	Sep 18 13:46
fewa	outrageous rates	Sep 18 13:47
fewa	some phone you hve to pay to get the photos even off the damn things	Sep 18 13:47
zlg	yes, allthough I do have a free amount of download's, it's not much and it's a package.	Sep 18 13:47
fewa	I just don't support such coercion and racketeering	Sep 18 13:47
fewa	thats what it is	Sep 18 13:47
fewa	"free"	Sep 18 13:47
zlg	Mine just reads as a usb memory stick. folder	Sep 18 13:48
fewa	you pay for service dont you?	Sep 18 13:48
zlg	ofcourse I pay for the service, I pay for my water and food and electricity too.	Sep 18 13:48
fewa	they its not free	Sep 18 13:48
fewa	*then	Sep 18 13:49
zlg	no it's not, it's also not free to establish the infrastructure for it either or run and maintain it.	Sep 18 13:49
zlg	or buy the bandwidth.	Sep 18 13:49
fewa	yes, yes, yes	Sep 18 13:50
fewa	im not saying it shoud be free	Sep 18 13:50
fewa	but you are the one that called it free	Sep 18 13:50
fewa	not me	Sep 18 13:50
zlg	did I ?	Sep 18 13:50
fewa	<zlg> yes, allthough I do have a free amount of download's	Sep 18 13:50
fewa	and the costs would be much lower if network providers allowed a free market in cell phones and software	Sep 18 13:51
zlg	yes, I pay for my phone service, included in that basic rate I also get a number of free phone calls, and an amount of data transfer off the net	Sep 18 13:52
fewa	zlg, you dont get it	Sep 18 13:52
fewa	if you pay for it, it is by definition not free	Sep 18 13:52
zlg	There is a free market in cell phones and software.	Sep 18 13:52
fewa	the word you are looking for is "complamentary"	Sep 18 13:52
fewa	zlg, according to who	Sep 18 13:52
zlg	I can buy all software of brands of cell phone, from different manufactures and even countries, with different software and OS's on them, and I have a choice of service providers to choose from.	Sep 18 13:54
zlg	So according to me,	Sep 18 13:54
fewa	http://video.yahoo.com/watch/5326212/14041540	Sep 18 13:55
fewa	hmm, doesnt seem like the best video	Sep 18 13:57
fewa	there was a at&t rep that basically admitted it not being a free market	Sep 18 13:57
fewa	that the exclusivity arrangement was not founded in technical arrangements	Sep 18 13:58
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] SELinux Shows Sandbox -X http://danwalsh.livejournal.com/31146.html		Sep 18 13:58
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] #SELinux Shows #Sandbox -X http://danwalsh.livejournal.com/31146.html #linux		Sep 18 13:58
zlg	It's not due to there being a limited amount of bandwidth.	Sep 18 13:59
zlg	unless you can get the dollars together to buy the bandwidth, you're screwed.	Sep 18 13:59
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] #HewlettPackard Advertises #GNU #Linux as "User Friendly" http://linusearch.com/wordpress/?p=472		Sep 18 14:00
fewa	zlg, the bandwidth is the electromagnetic spectrum	Sep 18 14:00
fewa	its a public resource	Sep 18 14:01
zlg	you cannot simply start to use bandwidth or spectrum, they are bought and sold in auction for vast sums of money for the right to use it.	Sep 18 14:02
zlg	It most certainly is NOT a public resource to use as you wish.	Sep 18 14:02
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] #Mainframe Servers Dominated by #GNU #Linux and Still No Going Away http://bit.ly/48HvDt		Sep 18 14:02
fewa	zlg, yes the FCC is suppose to be the public trustee	Sep 18 14:04
fewa	acting on the behalf of consumers and the public	Sep 18 14:05
zlg	and they are	Sep 18 14:05
fewa	John Kerry: "who really owns your phone?" http://www.savetheinternet.com/blog/09/06/16/who-really-owns-your-phone	Sep 18 14:06
zlg	we dont have that type of tying here in Aus, we can buy any brand phone and attach it to any service provider you choose.	Sep 18 14:08
oiaohm	Not eactly	Sep 18 14:09
oiaohm	We do have plan phones zlg	Sep 18 14:09
oiaohm	That you have to pay a fee to unlock before plan in up zlg	Sep 18 14:09
zlg	yes, we do, but after the plan expires you can drop in a pre-paid sim or a sim from another provider.	Sep 18 14:09
zlg	agreed.	Sep 18 14:10
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] #Ubuntu 9.10 Reaches Last Alpha http://bit.ly/2qHv3J http://bit.ly/1pihsT http://bit.ly/qn2hn		Sep 18 14:10
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] Amarok 2.2 Reaches Beta 2 http://amarok.kde.org/en/releases/2.2/beta/2		Sep 18 14:10
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] #Gentoo Releases Maintenance Guide http://bit.ly/ScE0Z #linux		Sep 18 14:10
zlg	that is also used to curb phone theft.	Sep 18 14:11
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] Ubuntu GNU/Linux Acquires New, Happy Users http://bit.ly/Nh6qW		Sep 18 14:12
oiaohm	Lot less negitive reviews of Linux around.	Sep 18 14:17
schestowitz	Very rare	Sep 18 14:17
schestowitz	Unless they are hidden somewhere	Sep 18 14:17
schestowitz	Yesterday I found a "why to avoid Linux" post	Sep 18 14:17
schestowitz	It said... well, because Linux is developed by companies that are funded by charity :-) :-)	Sep 18 14:18
oiaohm	LOL	Sep 18 14:18
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] #Palm dumps Windows Mobile http://bit.ly/ra6da		Sep 18 14:18
oiaohm	Linux is mostly funding by companies than need a cheep OS to do something else to make money.	Sep 18 14:19
oiaohm	than/that	Sep 18 14:19
schestowitz	Yes, exactly	Sep 18 14:19
schestowitz	That post had many comments, obviouslyt	Sep 18 14:19
schestowitz	I thought it was obviously at first quick sight	Sep 18 14:19
schestowitz	But it was serious. SOmeone who probably never used Linux....	Sep 18 14:20
schestowitz	Several years ago I thought OS X was based on Linux	Sep 18 14:20
oiaohm	Still are large section of kernel development comes from super computer development teams.	Sep 18 14:20
schestowitz	Someone had to correct me	Sep 18 14:20
schestowitz	[When OS X was young and I didn't keep good track of things]	Sep 18 14:20
zlg	or who does not understand that charities do not generally FUND things.	Sep 18 14:20
schestowitz	I used some OS 9 at the time	Sep 18 14:20
oiaohm	zlg Linux foundation is techically a charity.	Sep 18 14:21
oiaohm	That gets a hell load of cash.	Sep 18 14:21
oiaohm	Ok Linux world is good at avoiding the Tax man.	Sep 18 14:22
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] Company That Viciously Attacked #OLPC #Charity Now Prioritises #Linux on #Sub-notebooks http://bit.ly/FHDvJ		Sep 18 14:22
fewa	http://www.savetheinternet.com/blog/09/06/16/who-really-owns-your-phone	Sep 18 14:22
fewa	yep Linux is a charity	Sep 18 14:23
fewa	funded by peoples own self interest	Sep 18 14:23
fewa	thats how the world should work	Sep 18 14:23
fewa	in reference to the actual kernel	Sep 18 14:24
fewa	so the foundation is a non-profit?	Sep 18 14:24
fewa	I guess it makes since	Sep 18 14:24
zlg	for every gift there is a "giver" and a "receiver" if everyone works as a charity, you destroy the balance of givers and receivers.	Sep 18 14:25
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] #DragonFly #BSD 2.4 Officially Released to the Public http://bit.ly/q2DGt		Sep 18 14:26
MinceR	even if everyone is a charity, they can still receive gifts.	Sep 18 14:26
fewa	zlg, a gift is defined as thing given without the expectation of recieving anything in return	Sep 18 14:27
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] #Visa Looks Into #FreeSoftware (Hadoop) http://bit.ly/18RCQu		Sep 18 14:27
zlg	yes, that's correct, but for it to be "GIVEN" requires a giver,	Sep 18 14:27
fewa	so perhaps the expectation that those who have want linux changed is makes it not a gift to them	Sep 18 14:27
fewa	or the expectation that people will report bugs	Sep 18 14:28
fewa	but i think the vast number of people that use Linux are not neccicarily expected to contribute back	Sep 18 14:28
fewa	due to the easy-copying nature of the internet they don't have to	Sep 18 14:28
oiaohm	http://lwn.net/Articles/326747/ << Some people should be killed for there naming TXT for something other than a text document.	Sep 18 14:29
fewa	oiaohm, agreed lol	Sep 18 14:30
oiaohm	Open source world has a few non-profits.	Sep 18 14:30
fewa	SPI	Sep 18 14:30
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] #Linux Birth Listed as of 10 Biggest Moments in IT History (Jack Wallen) http://bit.ly/z7pgz no #gnu ?		Sep 18 14:30
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] Another #Ringleader of #Phorm #Worm Quits http://bit.ly/3E6hFd		Sep 18 14:33
zlg	a list compiled by someone with little knowledge of the real IT biggest moments.	Sep 18 14:33
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] #MichaelRobertson Exposes #EMI Thugs http://techdirt.com/articles/20090916/1907106215.shtml		Sep 18 14:35
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] EFF Responds to Intellectual Monopolies Propaganda at Schools http://bit.ly/dGh7b		Sep 18 14:35
oiaohm	Like the first programmer zlg	Sep 18 14:35
oiaohm	http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ada_Lovelace That a lot of IT people cannot even name.	Sep 18 14:36
fewa	hmm libQtWebKit.so.4 => not found	Sep 18 14:36
fewa	and i have	Sep 18 14:36
fewa	/usr/lib/libQtWebKit.so.4.5.0	Sep 18 14:36
fewa	does that mean i need to make a symbolic link?	Sep 18 14:36
oiaohm	Yep.	Sep 18 14:36
oiaohm	try ldconfig first	Sep 18 14:37
oiaohm	Depends on the ld.so if you need the link.	Sep 18 14:37
fewa	ldconfig didnt work	Sep 18 14:37
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] #SmashingPumpkins Follows #Radiohead and Rejects Old #BusinessModels http://bit.ly/23Zk6Z http://techdirt.com/articles/20090917/0431356 ...		Sep 18 14:37
oiaohm	Add link	Sep 18 14:37
fewa	rmm its there	Sep 18 14:37
fewa	guess i need to link to have it in the working dir?	Sep 18 14:38
oiaohm	Ok not a 32 bit program on a 64 it system.	Sep 18 14:38
fewa	ahhh	Sep 18 14:38
fewa	prob	Sep 18 14:38
fewa	ahh yes	Sep 18 14:38
oiaohm	Since the lib directory is in a different place.	Sep 18 14:38
fewa	/usr/lib32	Sep 18 14:38
fewa	thats where it is looking	Sep 18 14:38
fewa	dman when is multi-arch coming	Sep 18 14:39
fewa	so i can just apt-get -a i386	Sep 18 14:40
fewa	or something like that	Sep 18 14:40
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] #MAFIAA Lies on Behalf of Its Real Clients (Moguls, Not Artists) http://techdirt.com/articles/20090916/1829226214.shtml		Sep 18 14:40
Diablo-D3	mafiaa hah	Sep 18 14:41
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] Publicly-funded Data is Forced to Go Public by #Wikileaks http://bit.ly/Wrlf6		Sep 18 14:42
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] #IBM Carries on Trashing the #USPTO for Selfish Gain http://techdirt.com/articles/20090914/0259236178.shtml #patent #trash #abolition		Sep 18 14:44
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] #Microsoft Was Sued for Patent Violation by #Paltalk http://bit.ly/w55qY		Sep 18 14:45
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] #Apple Messes up #iPhones , Nearly #Bricks Some http://bit.ly/11RoMw		Sep 18 14:47
*wallclimber has quit ("wallclimber wanders off...")		Sep 18 14:47
oiaohm	So ibms comp for the most stupid patent regested is still going on.	Sep 18 14:48
fewa	https://wiki.ubuntu.com/CommunityEdgyIdeas/Multiarch	Sep 18 14:49
fewa	they have absolutely no awareness of the multi-arch specification	Sep 18 14:49
fewa	and seen to have no interest in fallowing it	Sep 18 14:49
fewa	perhaps	Sep 18 14:50
fewa	making up their own directories	Sep 18 14:50
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] #Microsoft Gets It way in Seattle, Washington by Taking More Control of #ODF from #OASIS http://bit.ly/bS5Yo		Sep 18 14:50
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] Some Previews of #OpenOffice.org 3.2 http://bit.ly/W2tBa		Sep 18 14:50
fewa	ahh https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MultiarchSpec	Sep 18 14:51
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] #KOffice and #ODF Are Spreading to Telephones http://lwn.net/Articles/353262/ http://bit.ly/3zrVNE		Sep 18 14:51
fewa	pointed from http://wiki.debian.org/multiarch	Sep 18 14:52
*Diablo-D3 has quit ("do coders dream of sheep()?")		Sep 18 14:54
zlg	ahh asimov	Sep 18 14:54
oiaohm	http://lackof.org/taggart/hacking/multiarch/ << It is a kind of scary plan fewa	Sep 18 14:58
fewa	the coreutils have already implamented it	Sep 18 15:00
fewa	oiaohm, how scary?	Sep 18 15:00
fewa	and yeah i have read that	Sep 18 15:00
fewa	that last ubuntu place is the one that is up to date	Sep 18 15:01
oiaohm	One binary directory still.	Sep 18 15:02
fewa	still the /bin /usr/bin difference	Sep 18 15:03
fewa	i think that is obsolete	Sep 18 15:03
fewa	i was thinking you could synlink /usr to /	Sep 18 15:03
oiaohm	No one /bin and /usr/bin ... for all archs.	Sep 18 15:03
fewa	if you read the FHS its about having a small boot disk	Sep 18 15:04
fewa	but thats just not how systems boot these days	Sep 18 15:04
fewa	they have a sall boot disk--a initrd	Sep 18 15:04
oiaohm	Now you would not want to replace something critical from the wrong arch.	Sep 18 15:04
fewa	initramfs	Sep 18 15:04
fewa	oiaohm, yep	Sep 18 15:04
oiaohm	I can see that coming.	Sep 18 15:04
oiaohm	Really they should have split the binary directories and been done with it.	Sep 18 15:05
fewa	so therefore /usr --> /	Sep 18 15:05
oiaohm	simplest would have been each arch with its own prefix.	Sep 18 15:06
oiaohm	Bit like usr but archs.	Sep 18 15:06
fewa	sometimes people would want multiple version o same binaries	Sep 18 15:06
oiaohm	Sometimes they need to.	Sep 18 15:07
fewa	and reading this: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MultiarchSpec it seems that it could be possible	Sep 18 15:07
oiaohm	For testing reason.	Sep 18 15:07
fewa	same program name	Sep 18 15:07
fewa	not binaries	Sep 18 15:07
fewa	yeah with multiple folder then you can set precedence with how you set up your path	Sep 18 15:07
fewa	idk, still seems a little wierd	Sep 18 15:08
fewa	the screwing up sys files can be done with the same priority: essential directives that prevent you from uninstalling	Sep 18 15:08
fewa	so to change arch of essential you have to change the arch of all essential	Sep 18 15:08
schestowitz	trmanco: are you on arch yet?	Sep 18 15:10
schestowitz	You expressed an intent	Sep 18 15:10
trmanco	not yet	Sep 18 15:10
oiaohm	Next problem is how big of a install could this make fewa	Sep 18 15:10
fewa	not any bigger at all	Sep 18 15:10
oiaohm	We might have something that needs a blueray live cd fewa	Sep 18 15:10
fewa	thats the point	Sep 18 15:10
fewa	you dont have to use it	Sep 18 15:10
oiaohm	Ie all archs on 1 live disk.	Sep 18 15:11
fewa	you can install a single-arch system	Sep 18 15:11
fewa	and most amd64 comps will actually use _less_ space	Sep 18 15:11
oiaohm	I was talking for worst case.	Sep 18 15:11
fewa	cause they get around the inefficiencies of the lib32 package mess	Sep 18 15:11
oiaohm	Ie someone insane enough to install them all.	Sep 18 15:11
fewa	also in reality you can just get the amd64 cd	Sep 18 15:11
fewa	and then the i386 cd	Sep 18 15:11
fewa	but yeah that would be crazy	Sep 18 15:12
oiaohm	Linux world crazy happens.	Sep 18 15:12
fewa	but you cant use the system like that	Sep 18 15:12
oiaohm	qemu can emulate all the cpu types.	Sep 18 15:12
fewa	because of the flat binary directory	Sep 18 15:12
oiaohm	The annoying thing is there is a valid reason for multiable binaries.	Sep 18 15:13
oiaohm	Particular loads run faster with 32 bit binarys than 64 and vice verser.	Sep 18 15:13
oiaohm	So at times items like apache might be worth having 2.	Sep 18 15:14
fewa	well	Sep 18 15:15
fewa	it wouldn't be that hard to add	Sep 18 15:15
fewa	and then add to your $PATH	Sep 18 15:16
fewa	someone could patch it and add it as a config option	Sep 18 15:16
fewa	with a little helper script to organize existing /usr/bin by arch	Sep 18 15:16
oiaohm	I think it single /etc and single bin	Sep 18 15:16
fewa	other question is where to put thse bin dirs	Sep 18 15:16
fewa	but yeah	Sep 18 15:17
fewa	and single /etc seems only sane way	Sep 18 15:17
fewa	otherwise you would just chroot or VPS, etc	Sep 18 15:17
fewa	its about a single system	Sep 18 15:17
fewa	not many	Sep 18 15:17
oiaohm	As long as you don't have arch depend configs in there.	Sep 18 15:17
fewa	like what?	Sep 18 15:17
oiaohm	That cause when swaping arch version of something to screw up.	Sep 18 15:17
fewa	the idea is not to have 2 apaches	Sep 18 15:17
fewa	or things like that	Sep 18 15:17
fewa	yeah those problems will get worked out	Sep 18 15:18
oiaohm	Like something listing plugins that are only installed in 1 arch.	Sep 18 15:18
fewa	a single /etc makes sense though	Sep 18 15:18
fewa	instead of always defining new namespaces in Linux we fix the software	Sep 18 15:18
fewa	to do things right	Sep 18 15:18
oiaohm	Were able yes.	Sep 18 15:18
oiaohm	But room has to be left for the times were its not wise to be single.	Sep 18 15:18
fewa	well yes	Sep 18 15:18
fewa	and compat is remained for packages that fit the old assumptions	Sep 18 15:19
oiaohm	asound config could be interesting.	Sep 18 15:19
fewa	as long as they are non system files	Sep 18 15:19
fewa	oiaohm, its works with the status quo	Sep 18 15:19
fewa	which is not nearly as good as the multiarch spec	Sep 18 15:19
fewa	so i dont think it will be a prob	Sep 18 15:19
oiaohm	I was thinking of config files that effect libs.	Sep 18 15:19
oiaohm	To be correct worst one would be gstreamer.	Sep 18 15:20
fewa	i dont really understand how qemu emulates for binaries	Sep 18 15:20
oiaohm	Really simply.	Sep 18 15:20
fewa	so it emulates and translates system calls into native arch ones?	Sep 18 15:20
oiaohm	Linux system calls are a constant.	Sep 18 15:20
fewa	runs target arch libraries	Sep 18 15:20
fewa	aha	Sep 18 15:20
fewa	well then thats really cool	Sep 18 15:20
twitter1	heh, Zune Fail. Steve Ballmer will squirt 30 seconds of ads at you as you start up your games http://games.slashdot.org/story/09/09/18/0430257/Ad-Viewing-Required-For-Free-Zune-HD-Games	Sep 18 15:20
oiaohm	yes Linux does have one stable binary abi.	Sep 18 15:21
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oiaohm	Just were no one looks.	Sep 18 15:21
fewa	and stability across archs	Sep 18 15:21
fewa	in term of feature parity	Sep 18 15:21
fewa	(where approiate)	Sep 18 15:22
fewa	nono	Sep 18 15:22
fewa	not feature parity	Sep 18 15:22
fewa	well anyways, i guess POSIX created that	Sep 18 15:22
oiaohm	syscall of Linux don't change with arch.	Sep 18 15:22
fewa	that calls are the same across archs	Sep 18 15:22
fewa	all in C	Sep 18 15:22
oiaohm	Only platform reporting has to be fudged.	Sep 18 15:23
fewa	like uname?	Sep 18 15:23
fewa	that sort of thin	Sep 18 15:23
oiaohm	Yep some applications take a hissy fit when they ask what is the cpu here and get answered x86 instead of ppc something.	Sep 18 15:23
twitter1	Slashdot covers hospital spyware without mentioning Windows. http://news.slashdot.org/story/09/09/18/0011218/Spyware-Prank-Exposes-Hospital-Medical-Records	Sep 18 15:24
oiaohm	Basically the functions uname talk to have to lie fewa and some points in /proc	Sep 18 15:24
fewa	i know archset does that	Sep 18 15:25
fewa	or whatever the command is	Sep 18 15:25
fewa	to set uname -m the i686 on amd64	Sep 18 15:26
oiaohm	Yes Linux has a way to fudge it.	Sep 18 15:26
*twitter1 has quit ("Leaving.")		Sep 18 15:27
oiaohm	Biggest head ache is byteorder conversions fewa	Sep 18 15:28
fewa	yeah when will everything goes to little endian :P	Sep 18 15:29
oiaohm	but its not that bad.	Sep 18 15:29
fewa	cause there cant be any real difference technically between them	Sep 18 15:29
fewa	besides their incompatibilities	Sep 18 15:30
oiaohm	There are 3	Sep 18 15:30
fewa	or is there?	Sep 18 15:30
oiaohm	big endian little endian and sun evil create half way between both.	Sep 18 15:30
oiaohm	So conversion cost is equal no matter what.	Sep 18 15:30
fewa	but thats their incompatibilities	Sep 18 15:30
fewa	would a pure little endian world be any differn't from a pure big endian world?	Sep 18 15:31
oiaohm	But then there are processes like arm that can switch between big endian and little endian on fly.	Sep 18 15:31
fewa	ie, is there a reason again agreeing and sticking to one	Sep 18 15:31
fewa	yeah	Sep 18 15:31
zlg	what it's the endian of the world ??	Sep 18 15:31
fewa	kinda crazy	Sep 18 15:31
fewa	how do you program that stuff	Sep 18 15:32
fewa	zlg, jesus comes back	Sep 18 15:32
oiaohm	big-endian is network protocals fewa	Sep 18 15:33
fewa	ahh	Sep 18 15:33
fewa	damn	Sep 18 15:33
oiaohm	So its a bit hard to get rid of.	Sep 18 15:33
oiaohm	then we have little endian in filesystems.	Sep 18 15:33
oiaohm	Arm took the only sane performance option out support both.	Sep 18 15:34
fewa	well i guess it will just be like language grammer	Sep 18 15:34
fewa	we will just have to get use to it	Sep 18 15:34
fewa	SVO VSO OSV, etc	Sep 18 15:34
oiaohm	Yet arm processes cannot natively handle suns half and half.	Sep 18 15:34
fewa	http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Subject_Verb_Object	Sep 18 15:34
*jono (n=jono@ubuntu/member/jono) has joined #boycottnovell		Sep 18 15:35
schestowitz	http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mz0hjLbgVIU&feature=PlayList&p=A3BD2524FE99BD4D&index=9	Sep 18 15:35