IRC: #boycottnovell @ FreeNode: September 20th, 2009

-BNc/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] "City wants software freedom for all" on software freedom day 20 00:05
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] US #Government Moves to #Server Side for Services and Programming 20 00:08
*lis` ( has joined #boycottnovellSep 20 00:09
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] #Political #AstroTurfing at Stake as Role of Legalised Bribery ( #Lobbying ) is Debated 20 00:10
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] #NetNeutrality to be Defended by #FCC , Claims #JuliusGenachowski 20 00:12
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] #MAFIAA Transforms Kids into #IntellectualMonopolies Propagandists ...Sep 20 00:16
*twitter ( has joined #boycottnovellSep 20 00:19
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] #MAFIAA Uses #Lobbyists as "Yes Men" for #DRM 20 00:19
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] #Oregon Tells the #Law Only to Rich People 20 00:20
twitteryes, the Slashdot effect has become weak.  People trust the summaries and have been driven off by M$ obnoxion.Sep 20 00:22
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] #PaulGraham Explains Why Old-style #Publishing Will Die 20 00:22
trmanco 20 00:28
trmancofound a mirrorSep 20 00:28
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] FFII Organises Anti-Software Patents Day 20 00:33
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] #Microsoft Accused of "Thievery" in #Patent Case 20 00:35
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] Pay-to-say Firm #IDC Says #Google is Gaining at Expense of #AbusiveMonopoly 20 00:36
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] #MSDOJ Revisits #Yahoo Sellout to #Microsoft 20 00:39
twittergood bye Beacon. 20 00:40
twitterI wonder why people don't apply the same laws to M$ Windows.Sep 20 00:41
twitter->  The lawsuit, filed in August of last year, alleged that Facebook and its Beacon affiliates like Blockbuster and violated a series of laws, including the Electronic Communications Privacy Act, the Video Privacy Protection Act, the California Consumer Legal Remedies Act and the California Computer Crime Law.Sep 20 00:41
schestowitztwitter: so they diffused the site with slashjectionsSep 20 00:42
twitterdiluted and disrupted comments, submissions and stories.  I wonder if they also diluted editors.Sep 20 00:43
twitteris this a crippled gnu/linux pad? 20 00:50
twitter,2817,2353044,00.aspSep 20 00:52
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] #Microsoft Kills #Windows #Server 2000 20 00:53
twitter->  the controls are touch, but are built into the bezel of the deviceSep 20 00:53
twittersadSep 20 00:53
MinceRlameSep 20 00:54
twitterI wonder if you can get a decent distro and xstroke on it anyway.Sep 20 00:54
schestowitz /. folks can bring over readership to Groklaw, TuxMachines, BN...Sep 20 00:54
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] #Microsoft Recruits 'Independent' #MaryJoFoley and #PaulThurrott to be #Vista7 #PR Bunnies ...Sep 20 00:56
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-BNc/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] #Microsoft Recruits More #Shills for #Vista7 in #China, Pays HK$7,777 Per Day #astroturfSep 20 01:00
cubezzzno arm for windowsSep 20 01:02
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] #Microsoft is Paying the Pay-to-Say #Forrester 'Research' to Help Promote #Vista7 #astroturf #shillSep 20 01:02
cubezzzwindows 7 anywaySep 20 01:02
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] #Microsoft is Exploiting #Children to Advertise #Vista7, Create Guilt #abuseSep 20 01:03
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-BNc/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] #Microsoft Senior #Marketing Manager Explains "Tweet Assignments" #pr #twitterSep 20 01:06
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] #Microsoft Breaks the #Law in #Korea -- Again (Found Guilty) 20 01:10
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] 58,000 US Bank Employees to Dump #Microsoft #Sharepoint 20 01:15
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[_goblin] RT @schestowitz 58,000 US Bank Employees to Dump #Microsoft #Sharepoint 20 01:16
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zlgisnt lotus notes proprietary ?Sep 20 01:18
Diablo-D3yesSep 20 01:21
Diablo-D3but its also rather boringSep 20 01:22
zlgyes , an doldSep 20 01:22
zlgold*Sep 20 01:22
Diablo-D3a lot of smart companies have switched to other thingsSep 20 01:22
cubezzzjust out of morbid curiousity, what's the closest linux equivalent?Sep 20 01:42
Diablo-D3there isnt oneSep 20 01:43
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cubezzzwas it old enough to have a MS DOS client?Sep 20 01:52
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Diablo-D3poooossssiblySep 20 01:52
Diablo-D3check wikipediaSep 20 01:52
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cubezzzyeah it didSep 20 01:52
cubezzzfirmly in the MS world I seeSep 20 01:52
*schestowitz gives channel operator status to cubezzzSep 20 01:53
cubezzzalthough I see it has it's roots in Control Data's Plato learning systemSep 20 01:53
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cubezzznot sure if Control Data is still aroundSep 20 01:55
cubezzzthey must be gone, a pitySep 20 02:00
WillWell, MS missed the back-to-school period for Windows 7 launch.  Would it be crazy to think that might be part of some plan to squeeze a little extra money out?  Sell them all Vista computers, then offer Win7 upgrades for cheap a month later.Sep 20 02:07
cubezzzI think the whole windows house of cards is ready to collapseSep 20 02:08
cubezzzwe'll see :)Sep 20 02:08
Willcubezzz:  i don't think it is indefinitely sustainable, but I'm wondering how slow the fall will be.Sep 20 02:09
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WillProbably the fall will happen at a glacial pace up to a certain point, then go the rest of the way with dizzying speed.Sep 20 02:09
cubezzzno more wintel dominance, at least I can't see itSep 20 02:09
WillNetbooks are likely to help, especially once ARM gets properly in the game.  No one saw that phenomenon comingSep 20 02:11
cubezzzquite a while ago I talked to a guy who actually predicted windows taking over... back in 1994 I think windows 3.1 eraSep 20 02:11
cubezzzI'll like an ARM with an FPU actuallySep 20 02:11
cubezzznot sure if that existsSep 20 02:12
WillHalloween documents.  Microsoft got scared to Linux years before most people would consider it usable.Sep 20 02:12
WillChrome is still a wild card for now.Sep 20 02:13
cubezzzwell when I was talking to HP devs I saw the bad stuff coming... the dropping of support for Unix for scannersSep 20 02:13
Willcubezzz:  ?Sep 20 02:13
cubezzzback around 2000Sep 20 02:14
cubezzzthey dropped a lot of multi-OS support for thingsSep 20 02:14
cubezzzwhen Microsoft _was not_ broken upSep 20 02:14
cubezzzthat is directly traceable to the Halloween stuffSep 20 02:15
cubezzz'de-commoditize protocols' I think was the termSep 20 02:16
Will2000 was very different from today.  Linux wasn't really ready for the consumer desktop.  OSX was in its infancy.  At the time, Windows probably was the best and maybe only choice for most people.Sep 20 02:16
cubezzzWill, yeah I am sorry to say it took me until 2003 to break free from MicrosoftSep 20 02:17
cubezzzwell, back in 1998 I tried a bunch of different onesSep 20 02:18
cubezzzMinix, Linux, BeOS...Sep 20 02:18
cubezzzI had dropped Amiga by that time... no more Commodore dealers, no nothingSep 20 02:19
Willcubezzz:  I didn't even know what Linux was in 2000.  I didn't start using it at all until 2004, and I didn't switch over to it as my primary OS until 2-3 years ago.Sep 20 02:20
Willbut when I look at Linux circa 2004 and the 2009 releases, it might as well be a completely different operating system in terms of how much it has grown and matured.Sep 20 02:21
cubezzzok, I tried Darkstar Linux 0.94 and I can't remember exactly when that was, but it was before 1998Sep 20 02:22
cubezzzI should have switched over faster but I had some trouble with cdrom driversSep 20 02:22
cubezzzespecially since I had used SCO Unix System V at work, I had some *nix experienceSep 20 02:23
WillWhat impresses me about most open source stuff is that it is always maturing.  Often at a fast rate, sometimes at a slow rate, but always moving forward.  There are occasional events like the KDE4 transition where it takes one step backwards to soon after take two steps forwards, but I've never seen the kind of serious regression in open source that a certain other OS has been characterized by.Sep 20 02:23
cubezzzI didn't like Unix all that much at the start, I liked AmigaDOS betterSep 20 02:23
cubezzzWill, the FOSS concept itself is the keySep 20 02:24
cubezzzprogramming your own stuff is funSep 20 02:24
cubezzzdoesn't matter if one company dies, it still survives on different hardwareSep 20 02:25
cubezzzMicrosoft calls Linux a "Hydra" :)Sep 20 02:25
Willthat and being guided by your own needs and the needs of your users instead of being lead around by a marketing dept.Sep 20 02:25
Willhydra is a good term for it.Sep 20 02:26
zlgat least they did not call it a cerberujsSep 20 02:26
zlgcerberusSep 20 02:26
Willdoes that make windows a chimera?Sep 20 02:26
cubezzzWIndows is what Treebeard called Saruman, all closed and shutteredSep 20 02:27
Willcubezzz:  in that context, I could argue that Windows is Sauron;  Saruman would be a better fit to Novell.Sep 20 02:28
cubezzzI probably would have called IBM Sauron beforeSep 20 02:28
zlgit would be more medusaSep 20 02:29
Willzlg:  it does have a tendency to turn innovation to stone.Sep 20 02:29
WillAnd it is often a jumbled conglomeration of things Microsoft absorbed.Sep 20 02:30
zlgso it freezes everytime you look at it LOLSep 20 02:30
cubezzzzlg: HASep 20 02:30
cubezzzThe comparison to the Borg is also aptSep 20 02:30
Willzlg: funny.   so, in true MS fashion, they couldn't get that right either?  Medusa is supposed to freeze what _it_ looks at not the other way around.  Unless you have a mirror.Sep 20 02:31
zlgwhen you use it, "something is going to go bad" LOLSep 20 02:32
Willcubezzz:  Slashdot loves that png of "Billcutus"Sep 20 02:33
cubezzzthat makes me think of Clash of the TitansSep 20 02:33
cubezzzI'll like to see some linux boxes in stores this fallSep 20 02:34
Willzlg:  the windows EULA is cerberus.Sep 20 02:35
Willcubezzz:  for a brief time a year or so ago there were $20 boxed sets of Ubuntu on the shelves at Best BuySep 20 02:36
WillBut they had zero marketing and where placed in a really random place on the bottom shelves.Sep 20 02:36
cubezzzwell it's a tough sellSep 20 02:37
Willi guess those didn't sell too well and were pulled.  Surprise surprise.  They were sitting in with the garbage bin windows software section that most big box stores have.Sep 20 02:37
cubezzzpeople can download ISOs and burn them for 25 cents per discSep 20 02:38
Willtrue, but the people that could benefit most from Ubuntu don't know that.Sep 20 02:38
cubezzznot to mention the Ubuntu guys were mailing them out for free :)Sep 20 02:38
Willthey don't know that eitherSep 20 02:38
zlgthats how I got my first linux's was from magizenes from news agents, generally around $14, RH7.0Sep 20 02:38
cubezzzthat's why I said "Linux Boxes", not Linux discsSep 20 02:39
Willwhat it comes down to is that Linux needs marketing.  Before it maturity and polish were more important, but that stage is nearly over.  It's time for the Linux community to think about marketing.Sep 20 02:39
zlgthis was basically a Box set with 2 CD's and a book on how to use RH, install ect.Sep 20 02:40
zlgit was all you needed to get up and running on linux.Sep 20 02:40
cubezzzMagazines are better than just the disc by itself certainlySep 20 02:40
zlgI think I still have it here, I certainly still have the CD'sSep 20 02:41
WillAnd I know I'll get the standard "Linux was doing fine before and will do fine now".  That's true.  Linux will continue to grow by word of mouth.  But MS and Apple aren't going to sit around and play softball.  They'll do whatever they can to shut out Linux.  Once Linux gets just enough market share to be somewhat commonly known about--maybe only ~20%, it will be much harder for MS and Apple to ignore standards.Sep 20 02:41
WillLook at FirefoxSep 20 02:43
WillIf Linux in general gets to the point that Firefox is at now, the hardest part will be over.Sep 20 02:43
_Hicham_Linux needs marketingSep 20 02:43
_Hicham_Ubuntu is a good proofSep 20 02:44
_Hicham_Mozilla is a good proof alsoSep 20 02:44
WillHicham:  exactlySep 20 02:44
fewaWill, agreed 100%Sep 20 02:45
_Hicham_Canonical's ShipIt service have helped Ubuntu enormouslySep 20 02:45
WillI was using Linux prior to Ubuntu.  What did Ubuntu do at a technological level that the others before it didn't?  A little more polish here and there maybe, but nothing substancial.  What it did different was establish a marketing presence.Sep 20 02:45
fewaMozilla is an amazing successSep 20 02:45
_Hicham_I really do admire Mozilla for their marketing strategySep 20 02:46
twitterThe people at Ubuntu might be insulted by your assessment, Will.Sep 20 02:46
twitterno one developer really does muchSep 20 02:46
fewai.e. nothing substansialSep 20 02:47
_Hicham_well, it is true that Ubuntu didn't do muchSep 20 02:47
_Hicham_as Debian was already thereSep 20 02:47
twitterand what does Debian do?Sep 20 02:47
fewai would say that most Linux and GNU/Linux improvements have been substansialSep 20 02:47
fewaits just not how development is doneSep 20 02:47
_Hicham_Debian established the distroSep 20 02:47
_Hicham_the packaging systemSep 20 02:47
_Hicham_the installerSep 20 02:47
_Hicham_and so onSep 20 02:48
twitteryeah, yeah.Sep 20 02:48
twitterwhat do they do today?Sep 20 02:48
fewa*have not beenSep 20 02:48
fewadamnSep 20 02:48
twitterthat's the nature of free softwareSep 20 02:48
twitterit's there for everyone to build on.Sep 20 02:48
fewarealiable packagingSep 20 02:48
WillWell, my apologies, but how much can I say about any distro when much of it is the result of its constituent package developers and maintainers.Sep 20 02:48
zlgubuntu contributed more to FOSS and code or improvements, it contfributed, some consistancy, a larger and controlled organization, and marketing and promotionSep 20 02:48
fewayou dont have to ask to improve and build uponSep 20 02:48
WillMaybe I did misspeak there.Sep 20 02:48
_Hicham_Shuttleworth knows the pitfalls of Linux DistrosSep 20 02:49
fewaWill, well we do have to be focused on realitiesSep 20 02:49
_Hicham_what is why he was successfulSep 20 02:49
_Hicham_plus, his experience as an ex-Debian devSep 20 02:49
fewaRed Hat doesn't permit non-free drivers--which pressures hardware manufacturesSep 20 02:49
fewathey develop ALSA, PolicyKit, virt-managerSep 20 02:50
twitterHow do we measure success of a distribution?  Are there links to reliable market share info?Sep 20 02:50
fewaothe rstuffSep 20 02:50
Willfewa -- that was one of the things I put under "more polished (the drivers)  I should have put that in Ubuntu's credit.Sep 20 02:50
_Hicham_Shuttleworth claims that Ubuntu is used by more than 8 million peopleSep 20 02:50
twitterI think Debian is a great success because it continues to provide reliable, free computing.Sep 20 02:50
WillIn any case, Ubuntu and Debian are my distros of choice at the moment.Sep 20 02:51
twitterSurely there are as many Debian, Red Hat and other users.Sep 20 02:51
fewaWill, the only thing that is more polished is allowing people to sign away their rights, and the programmers ability to change the systemSep 20 02:51
twitter8 million is not a large number.Sep 20 02:51
fewawith non-free drivers which hold back developmentSep 20 02:51
twitterNon free drivers are a big problem.Sep 20 02:52
fewa*Im going to clarify that: polished with drivers as you mentionedSep 20 02:52
zlgtwitter it's relative, it is a huge number if it the number of steps you have to run, or seconds to hold your breathSep 20 02:52
Willfewa -- I know.  One day, I hope open drivers will be the norm.  For now, a bit of pragmatism might be needed.  If no one uses Linux, there won't be enough pressure on manufacturers to open their drivers.Sep 20 02:52
_Hicham_Mandriva One have more non-free stuffSep 20 02:52
fewa*not with respect to whole system, to which I don't really knowSep 20 02:52
fewaWill, yes, i'm not saying that ubuntu is not goodSep 20 02:53
fewabut allowing people to use non-free drivers which hold back development is not a real improvementSep 20 02:53
fewavery clearly not a real improvementSep 20 02:53
fewabut yes, getting people to use Linux is importantSep 20 02:53
_Hicham_I don't use proprietary drivers for the momentSep 20 02:53
Willfewa:  probably 90% of computer users out there have no idea what you just said.Sep 20 02:54
zlgpeople should be FREE to use whatever they like in a distro, if they need closed drivers, and they dont mind, its up to the users.Sep 20 02:54
twitterNon free drivers are detrimental to everyone, users, developers and distros.Sep 20 02:54
fewabus as RMS said, even if you get everyone to use free software, if they don't understand freedom that platform will become non-freeSep 20 02:54
twitterusers have a hard time upgrading.Sep 20 02:54
fewathey will be all to ready to hand it awaySep 20 02:54
fewaWill, non-free drivers create the bad experiences that plague WindowsSep 20 02:54
fewawe do not want to replocate thatSep 20 02:54
Willfewa -- as an Nvidia card owner, I know first hand... and I want my plymouth.Sep 20 02:55
twitterM$ and other companies can screw distros around for their drivers.  This hurt distros and the users who are forced to hop from one distro d'jour to the next.Sep 20 02:55
fewafree software drivers are not just a thing of lofty idealists, there is firm pragmatism in itSep 20 02:55
twitterYes, non free drivers are flakySep 20 02:55
fewatwitter, and they hold back development by forcing the continuation of legacy interfacesSep 20 02:55
fewawhich cant be changedSep 20 02:56
fewaThat why Windows is such a POSSep 20 02:56
fewaamong other reasons, but that is one of the main onesSep 20 02:56
twitteryes, it's obvious that development for non free software is second rate.Sep 20 02:56
fewaIts not just freedom, its also critical in making a quality productSep 20 02:56
Willtwitter: agreedSep 20 02:56
twitterit creates a lot of work.Sep 20 02:56
_Hicham_nvidia driver have been reverse engineeredSep 20 02:56
fewaso Will's view is short-sidedSep 20 02:56
_Hicham_which is wasting a lot of timeSep 20 02:56
twitterAPI documentation is a waste of effort.Sep 20 02:56
Willfewa:  the then is as you said:  How do we get people to understand and care about software freedom?Sep 20 02:57
twitterit's easy.  You get them to use free software.Sep 20 02:57
fewaWill, by showing the difference it can make in the qualitySep 20 02:57
fewa^^^^^^Sep 20 02:57
zlgIf you reverse engineer a "flaky, and POS" proprietary driver, how is it possible for your reverse engineered version to have the same !functionaloity, and be equally "flaky"Sep 20 02:57
twitterIt does not take long for people to realize that free software is better.Sep 20 02:57
fewawhat twitter saidSep 20 02:57
twitterIt takes less work to use and keep.Sep 20 02:57
cubezzzI got tossed from the Linux counterSep 20 02:57
fewazlg, you can fix the bugs in the new versionSep 20 02:57
fewazlg, this has happened many times in computer historySep 20 02:58
twitterbblSep 20 02:58
*twitter has quit ("Leaving.")Sep 20 02:58
zlgYou reverse engineer functionaly, generally, not code. but I guess, Reverse engeering sounds like another form of stealing someone elses code IMHO.Sep 20 02:58
Willfewa:  Maybe I've just talked to the wrong people, but it seems like there are plenty out there that just don't get it, won't get it, don't care about getting it.Sep 20 02:59
fewazlg, you are a troll, go awaySep 20 02:59
zlgwhy,? because I said something that you dont agree with ?? wowSep 20 02:59
fewaWill, then they are at the mercy of those who get itSep 20 02:59
fewazlg, no, you have been in this channel a long timeSep 20 03:00
zlgyour poinkt is?Sep 20 03:00
fewaand you have the exact same behavior as _Mutex_Sep 20 03:00
zlgI think you've been here quite awiletooSep 20 03:00
ThistleWebthere are many ways to code function, stealing code would be doing it the way they haveSep 20 03:00
_Hicham_we should boycott proprietary driversSep 20 03:00
_Hicham_personally, I won't buy a laptop that doesn't have an Intel graphic chipsetSep 20 03:01
_Hicham_because Intel graphic chipset do have open source driversSep 20 03:01
zlgFewa, ok ill trynot to upset your delicate sensibilities by not saying anything you do not agree with. ok ?Sep 20 03:01
WillThat's part of where my "short-sighted" idea came from.  But what you just said sums up something I get now.  Some people get discombobulated if you so much as rearrange their desktop icons.  I thought if I present Linux in a more familiar fashion, maybe they will accept it and grow in time.  I think some have.  But would they in general?Sep 20 03:01
ThistleWeboh, and getting people to use free software does nothing to help them understand and care about free softwareSep 20 03:01
ThistleWebpeople use firefox because it's the best, many dont know or care that it's FOSSSep 20 03:02
fewazlg, Dowling v. United States (1985 - supreme court) "interference with copyright does not easily equate with theft, conversion, or fraud. The Copyright Act even employs a separate term of art to define one who misappropriates a copyright: ... 'an infringer of the copyright.' ..."Sep 20 03:02
_Hicham_ThistleWeb : we don't need to give the FOSS argument to peopleSep 20 03:02
zlgfewa, so ?Sep 20 03:03
ThistleWebI know, I'm pointing out that "getting people to use it" is not the answer to "how do we get people to care about it"Sep 20 03:03
_Hicham_Mozilla have used a lot of arguments to convince peopleSep 20 03:03
ThistleWebMozilla also happen to make VERY good products, and win on merritSep 20 03:04
WillHicham, the best argument I've ever seen to get people to use Mozilla was IE.Sep 20 03:04
cubezzzProbably most academia gets it, at least computer onesSep 20 03:04
_Hicham_yes, as IE was a real messSep 20 03:04
_Hicham_and Web Developers were also helping MozillaSep 20 03:04
fewaThose who need to get it the most are developersSep 20 03:04
_Hicham_since Firefox is more standard compliantSep 20 03:05
fewaand by and large, they get itSep 20 03:05
Willcubezzz:  most people in any technical field of academica are very likely to have had some exposure to Linux.  But a lot of them use OSX instead.Sep 20 03:05
_Hicham_so when people watching dailymotion see a great publicity of firefox, sure they will download itSep 20 03:05
fewathat is why Microsoft wants to create braindead button-clickersSep 20 03:05
_Hicham_and so onSep 20 03:05
fewacause if they think, they wouldn't use Microsoft softwareSep 20 03:05
fewa..create software through drag-and-dropSep 20 03:06
fewaand a gazillion hacksSep 20 03:06
_Hicham_Windows source code is full of swearing and insultsSep 20 03:07
fewaand have your code by standards-breaking...completely break without cookies, have unhelpful error codesSep 20 03:07
_Hicham_I was really shocked when I opened the filesSep 20 03:07
_Hicham_almost every comment is combined with a swearing or insult or sthgSep 20 03:07
WillWell 7 is on its way.  If it turns out to be a mess, then like Vista before it, it should be a great advertisement for open source.  But if it turns out to be even merely passable, then what?Sep 20 03:07
fewa_Hicham_, your taintedSep 20 03:07
fewaWill, how can it?Sep 20 03:08
_Hicham_fewa : ?Sep 20 03:08
fewaWill, every CIO out there has already said they would touch itSep 20 03:08
Willgood thenSep 20 03:08
fewaIts just Vista SP2.1Sep 20 03:08
Willmaybe the frog finally got hot enough to get uncomfortableSep 20 03:08
_Hicham_Microsoft is freaking outSep 20 03:09
Diablo-D3about what?Sep 20 03:09
fewa_Hicham_, there is a tainted theory o copyrightSep 20 03:09
fewa_Hicham_, its the reason for clean-room engineeringSep 20 03:09
zlg"if" vista was a failure, it did not seem to displace MS for FOSS, So I would not expect it to happen with Win7.Sep 20 03:09
_Hicham_fewa : I got the code through piratebay, it is still there i thinkSep 20 03:09
fewaif youve seen the Windows source code you are tainted from writing free software OS codeSep 20 03:10
fewa..according to the theorySep 20 03:10
_Hicham_fewa : haha, but I didn't like the codeSep 20 03:10
_Hicham_it is a set of hacksSep 20 03:10
fewasee, you saw itSep 20 03:11
_Hicham_of courseSep 20 03:11
zlgJust ready the code does not automatically assign a NDA on you.Sep 20 03:11
Willzlg:  vista didn't collapse the dam, but it did make some large cracks in it.Sep 20 03:11
fewathat creates legal uncertaintySep 20 03:11
fewazlg, that is 100% besides the pointSep 20 03:11
ThistleWebzlg: windows is one of the 2 flagship products MS has, their entire empire relies on both windows and office being adopted en masse by everyoneSep 20 03:11
fewaand you know itSep 20 03:11
_Hicham_fewa : that is what mono developers saySep 20 03:11
ThistleWebthey can usually rely on that income, and spend it in advanceSep 20 03:11
fewa_Hicham_, about what code?Sep 20 03:12
ThistleWebvista was very late, and it bombedSep 20 03:12
ThistleWebthey cant afford it to happen to the same flagship product TWICE in a rowSep 20 03:12
_Hicham_fewa : mono developers say u can't contribute if u seen .NET codeSep 20 03:12
zlgit does not "have to" nor is it adopted en masseSep 20 03:12
fewa_Hicham_, this theory was not held in the BSD freedom/rewrite suitSep 20 03:12
ThistleWebthey need windows 7 to be accpetedSep 20 03:12
ThistleWebthey need retailers to only offer that, so that customers have no choiceSep 20 03:12
fewaor perhaps it wasnt brought up....Sep 20 03:12
WillWindows and Office together fund the rest of the company's ventures, most of which tend to lose money left and right.Sep 20 03:13
ThistleWebthey need corps to upgrade and pay huge sums of cash for no new benefitsSep 20 03:13
ThistleWebthey're already reeling after peeps refused vistaSep 20 03:13
_Hicham_Office is threatened by OpenOfficeSep 20 03:13
_Hicham_OpenOffice is a real threatSep 20 03:13
ThistleWebthanks to vista, more and more peeps have been alerted to having a choiceSep 20 03:14
WillVista open corps eyes though.Sep 20 03:14
fewato alternatives... quick!Sep 20 03:14
ThistleWebthey will not go back to blind obedience as they have done beforeSep 20 03:14
fewaBail Ship! Bail Ship!Sep 20 03:14
WillAnd what sometimes goes unmentioned is that Win7 doesn't have to prove itself against Vista.  It has to prove itself against XPSep 20 03:14
ThistleWebeven at normal windows prices it'll be a hard sell, specially when money is tightSep 20 03:15
fewaWill, it's not about proof at allSep 20 03:15
WillEven corps that are still on Windows have decided that they are comfortable on XP for now.Sep 20 03:15
fewaits about being useful to developersSep 20 03:15
zlgthats the trouble, MS's main rival is none other than MSSep 20 03:15
ThistleWebnot to mention the fact that it'll have to try and recoup some of the income they expected to get with vistaSep 20 03:15
fewawhich it clearly is not 20 03:15
ThistleWebif thats not enough of a problem for them, PC's are MUCH cheaper now, so a $200 OS tax onto the price is VERY noticableSep 20 03:16
fewaMicrosoft will not manage to get win32 beyond NT 5.1 (XP)Sep 20 03:16
fewaAnd they cant just keep adding anti-features and raising pricesSep 20 03:16
ThistleWeband peeps have netbooks where either Linux is free, or XP is peanuts to competeSep 20 03:16
Willfewa:  what I mean is that a lot of companies want to stick with XP for now.  Sooner or later, hardware replacement or lack of support will force them to move away from XP.  So, the question to each of them is, will they move to 7 then, or will they migrate to an alternative instead.Sep 20 03:17
ThistleWebfor me, 2009 was the begining of the end for MSSep 20 03:17
fewaWill, they will move to Linux or XP on Linux virt hostsSep 20 03:17
ThistleWebthey're being assailed on all fronts, in most cases offering better products or services for free or cheaper, and the market ha bombed so peeps are forced to think about priceSep 20 03:17
fewacause the Windows virtualization is laughableSep 20 03:18
ThistleWebtheir model is brokenSep 20 03:18
ThistleWebthe difference is that now a lot of competition has matured enough that it can't be dismissedSep 20 03:18
zlgI wish I had a dollar for everytime I hear MS is coming to an endSep 20 03:19
fewaWho wants their server will all those virtualization guests to have a remote registry? a allways-on GUI? the record for remotely-exploitable security holes?Sep 20 03:19
ThistleWebMS will be a patent troll parasite business in maybe 10yrsSep 20 03:19
fewaAnd even better: Windows has woorse hardware support than LinuxSep 20 03:19
WillHere's a question I'd like to hear a softie answer:  Assuming XP compatibility is a necessity, what is the advantage to using Win7 and XP mode over using Linux and XP in a VM?Sep 20 03:19
fewaesp on high-end hardwareSep 20 03:19
fewaWill, absolutely noneSep 20 03:20
ThistleWebwith a virtual XP you can delete it, and replace it when it gets hosedSep 20 03:20
Willfewa:  that's why I'd like to hear a softie answer it.Sep 20 03:20
ThistleWebnot to mention the host OS will be saferSep 20 03:20
fewa:PSep 20 03:20
zlgive not found that XP compatibility is necessary, for anything.Sep 20 03:20
fewaI do keep blowing you leads....Sep 20 03:20
ThistleWebwith windows 7 and a virtual xp, you have 2 malware magnets to try and protectSep 20 03:20
fewazlg, have you tried running cromium?Sep 20 03:21
zlgno, why would ISep 20 03:21
fewasuch a high-profile application will surely run!Sep 20 03:21
Willfewa ;)Sep 20 03:21
fewa(i think they made it work now, but I will assure you it did not work before)Sep 20 03:22
Willzlg:  Vista, the economy situation, and netbook changed things a bit.Sep 20 03:22
fewaand that because Windows uses undocumented features for its internal applicationsSep 20 03:23
Willzlg:  home users might not need XP compatibility, but you never know about what kind of in-house software a company might need that may or may not work well on Vista/7Sep 20 03:23
zlgive got a huge library of programs ive used with xp for some time, all of them work just as well on vista and win7. ive not found one that does not yet, not saying there are not any.Sep 20 03:24
zlgWill, yes trueSep 20 03:24
fewaThats why chromium was incompatible: because of the anti-competitive actions of MicrosoftSep 20 03:24
fewachromium ~= Google ChromeSep 20 03:24
fewain using undocumented featuresSep 20 03:24
ThistleWebbefore the economy crashed, many corps would just rubber stamp a new round of windows licences, which MS relied on. Now they have to put upgrades on hold, look for other options, and demand a much higher ROISep 20 03:25
fewazlg, can you run IE6 natively in Windows 7?Sep 20 03:25
zlgagain, why would I want too, can you run the latest on 2.2.15 kernel ?Sep 20 03:25
ThistleWebMS have spent a fortune in getting windows 7 out, because they had no choice, but it won't save themSep 20 03:25
fewaMicrosoft's ActiveX lock-in seems so successful that even microsoft cant make another application that is compatible with itSep 20 03:25
Willfewa -- thanks for reminding me about that ............. grr.  IE6 sites.  'Nuff said.Sep 20 03:26
fewaWill, mainly activeX im experiencesSep 20 03:26
fewanot really the HTMLSep 20 03:26
WillDoes IE even support png yet?Sep 20 03:26
fewaso thats not even the browserSep 20 03:26
_Hicham_yes, since IE7Sep 20 03:27
fewaWill, yes, but only correctly in IE8Sep 20 03:27
WillThat alone was enough to turn me against IE when I had to code a website one time.Sep 20 03:27
ThistleWebdont think it does transparent png thoSep 20 03:27
fewaand IE8 does not support <video> <audio> or <canvas>Sep 20 03:27
fewaIMHO making it obsolete before it was ever releasedSep 20 03:27
_Hicham_in IE6, u had to get transparency with an alpha channel from microsoftSep 20 03:27
WillThistleWeb:  transparency was exactly what I needed then.Sep 20 03:27
zlgcomplaining about old versions of software tells me, you have little to complain about of the newer versions ?Sep 20 03:27
fewa<zlg> again, why would I want too, can you run the latest on 2.2.15 kernel ?Sep 20 03:28
fewaThis is backwardsSep 20 03:28
Willzlg:  I don't use them.Sep 20 03:28
fewaI can run the very first on a 2.6.30 kernelSep 20 03:28
WillAnd I don't do as much web dev these days.Sep 20 03:28
zlgI could sit here and pick holes on RH7.0 too but whats the point ?Sep 20 03:28
fewazlg, problem is that people still use XPSep 20 03:28
cubezzzfor the record I thought windows 2.0 was slow :)Sep 20 03:29
fewaand Microsoft hasn't been able to give people a reason to change thatSep 20 03:29
zlgfewa, and why is that a problem, do you use i t?Sep 20 03:29
fewanor have they been able to maintain compatibility with XPSep 20 03:29
fewaso attack the age of RH7.0 is besides the pointSep 20 03:30
ThistleWebthere's always a reason to upgrade to the newer OS or software package, the problem MS have is that you have to give people like $300 of reasons to upgrade windows and officeSep 20 03:30
fewaalso: I know people that still run RH8.0 and it works greatSep 20 03:30
Willzlg: The point is it would be nice if MS would stop using its large market share to hold back technologies.  If there are 5 products in a space, and all of them have supported a feature, filetype, etc. for years, except Microsoft's product, which still doesn't, then that can hold back the other four.Sep 20 03:30
fewaover a year uptimeSep 20 03:30
fewaand only taken down to clear around itSep 20 03:30
ThistleWebthat's where FOSS shines, as often the "just upgrade to the new version" is a free downloadSep 20 03:30
ThistleWebcompared to "pay more money"Sep 20 03:30
ThistleWebso there's no reason not to upgrade with FOSSSep 20 03:31
fewaThistleWeb, modern propritary software has changed modelsSep 20 03:31
fewaexpect for those holding onto dough like MSSep 20 03:31
fewathink walled gardens like iTunes/iPod/iPhone/iMsickSep 20 03:31
ThistleWebit's not "is it better", it's "is it $300 better"Sep 20 03:32
cubezzzit's not $300 better :)Sep 20 03:32
fewawhere they upgrade every week/month to lock out applications that interoperateSep 20 03:32
ThistleWebyeah Apple do like doing thatSep 20 03:32
fewaand the user doesn't even see a difference, its essentially a anti-virus upgrade where the user is the virusSep 20 03:32
cubezzzdoes the price always go up for windows?Sep 20 03:33
WillPalm Pre says hiSep 20 03:33
fewaand the user doing what he/she wants is the malicious behaviorSep 20 03:33
fewa*what he/she wants with the device he/she purchacedSep 20 03:33
WillThe ipod might have been awesome a few years ago compared to the rest,  but IMO, these days the standard ipod (not touch) is a sheer rip-off compared to what else can be had for cheaper.Sep 20 03:34
ThistleWebthat's because Apple have their own workflow set out, which ensures the customer is in their revenue stream at all times. Users who step outside that flow by wanting things their own way need to be "educated"Sep 20 03:34
cubezzzaround $200 for windows 7 in U.S. dollarsSep 20 03:34
fewaThistleWeb, pretty accurace pictureSep 20 03:34
fewa*accurateSep 20 03:34
fewaApple is always at war with MicrosoftSep 20 03:35
fewaApple is always at war with MicrosoftSep 20 03:35
fewa:PSep 20 03:35
ThistleWebmany people learn to love the apple workflow, and buy into the lifestyle, so they dont see the barriersSep 20 03:35
Willfewa:  except when they unite against LinuxSep 20 03:35
fewa(even though they are very much aligned on their love of DRM)Sep 20 03:35
ThistleWebwhen they do that, they choose to buy apple stuff, which all works seamlessly with other apple stuffSep 20 03:35
fewafunny thing is that Apple is UNIX and used alot of GPL GNU utilsSep 20 03:36
fewa*usesSep 20 03:36
zlgall groups and orgaisationshave "workflow" and reneducation, even fossSep 20 03:36
ThistleWebcubezzz: the windows price is one of these "how long is a piece of string" thingsSep 20 03:36
fewazlg, one is free association, the other coercion and frivolous lawsuitsSep 20 03:36
Willfewa:  yeah, but you'd be surprised how difficult it can be to get some of the GNU stuff on OSX and well integrated.Sep 20 03:37
ThistleWebit'll vary from edition, region and licenceSep 20 03:37
Willfewa:  You'd think fink and macports would help.  And you'd be right... sometimes.Sep 20 03:37
ThistleWebmany users will be volume licences, which is agreed under an NDA, so nobody outside of the meetings knowSep 20 03:37
fewaWill, OS X takes extensively from FreeBSDSep 20 03:37
zlgfewa there is no "one and 'the other', they all do it all groups.Sep 20 03:37
ThistleWebeven home users dont know how much say Wallmart pay per pcSep 20 03:38
zlgit's called their adgenderSep 20 03:38
ThistleWeball they know is the price they pay at the tillSep 20 03:38
ThistleWebfor the PC including windowsSep 20 03:38
WillThistleWeb:  it boggles the mind why there hasn't been a law in most countries to unbundle the OS from the PC.  Make them separate purchases.  I think France has that.Sep 20 03:38
zlgmost business do not make their markup public.Sep 20 03:39
ThistleWebMS have powerful lobbyists to tell politicians peeps will buy it and install pirated windowsSep 20 03:39
ThistleWebso the status quo is an anti-piracy thingSep 20 03:39
_Hicham_you can't buy an OSless laptopSep 20 03:39
ThistleWebit's bullshit, but thats the reasoningSep 20 03:39
_Hicham_no laptop is delivered without OSSep 20 03:40
zlgI can here, in Aus. I can also buy the basic components of a laptop and build it myself.Sep 20 03:40
fewazlg, is it right to sue someone just cause they share people can sync their iPod with other programs? 20 03:40
zlgI can buy "driveless" Lt's everywhereSep 20 03:40
ThistleWebany machine you build can be OS's less, the HD is just a blank HS until YOU install an OS on itSep 20 03:40
fewaWill, I was alluding to _1984_ if you didn't noticeSep 20 03:40
ThistleWebthats different from buying a pre-built laptopSep 20 03:41
zlgfewa, it's someone's right to sue if they feel the other party is breaking the law, it's everyones rightSep 20 03:41
zlgeven yoursSep 20 03:41
ThistleWebthere;s breaking the law, and breaing the eula, which may or may not be legalSep 20 03:41
fewazlg, but is it not wrong to claim copyright over  sharing ways to sync their iPod with other programs?Sep 20 03:42
ThistleWebeven then, the big corps rely on being the big guy, and the lil guy cant afford to fight it, even if they're in the rightSep 20 03:42
fewazlg, to claim that those people can no longer publish those findings?Sep 20 03:42
fewazlg, that they have to censor themselves from helping out their fellow man?Sep 20 03:42
zlgI dont know who has copyright of what with ipods, so I dont know, nor do I care.Sep 20 03:42
ThistleWebscaring the lil guy with a potentially business destroying legal billSep 20 03:42
Willfewa:  Somehow I still haven't gotten around to reading that.  Don't ask why.  I don't know either.Sep 20 03:42
fewaor else they will be sued into the groundSep 20 03:43
zlgbut you have a right to sue if you feel you've been agreivedSep 20 03:43
fewaThat sounds like a prior restraint on speech if you ask me.Sep 20 03:43
ThistleWebwhen you throw your weight around enough, and people bend to your will, you get used to it, and expect it to happen every timeSep 20 03:43
WillThistleWeb:  I had a Dell phone sales rep grill me one time when I asked for a Windows refund prior to buying.  He asked me what OS I was going to use instead.  Guy had never heard of Debian, Ubuntu, or Red Hat, Was absolutely convinced that I was trying to pirate an OS.Sep 20 03:43
WillThis was before Dell offered Ubuntu.Sep 20 03:44
ThistleWebsmall coprs who say "no" tend to be like the lil nail sticking out of the wood, they get hammeredSep 20 03:44
fewaWill, just another example of Apple asserting that the DMCA gives them unlimited right to erect a walled garden and shoot intrudersSep 20 03:44
fewa...intruders that will ever take a seed from their gardenSep 20 03:44
zlgfewa it's certainly not a restraint on your legal rights.Sep 20 03:44
fewazlg, its an attempt to impose restrictions on free speechSep 20 03:45
fewarestricted before that person has said anythingSep 20 03:45
zlgwhy ? by allowing you to sue if you feel you need to, ?Sep 20 03:45
zlgfewa, explain how that works ?Sep 20 03:45
fewazlg, by claiming that saying something is a copyright infringementSep 20 03:45
fewazlg, you need to read the events of the caseSep 20 03:46
fewa"Late last year, after BluWiki users began a discussion about making some Apple iPods and iPhones interoperate with software other than Apple’s own iTunes, Apple lawyers demanded removal of the content. In a letter to OdioWorks, the attorneys alleged that the discussions constituted copyright infringement and a violation of the Digital Millennium Copyright Act’s (DMCA's) prohibition on circumventing copy protection measures. Fearing legal actionSep 20 03:46
fewa by Apple, OdioWorks took down the discussions from the Bluwiki site. "Sep 20 03:46
zlgare you saying, someone is being sued for "saying something is a copyright" ?Sep 20 03:46
fewazlg, Apple demanded that original discussion be taken down from a website.Sep 20 03:47
fewaciting copyright, but there was nothing that apple produced on the entire siteSep 20 03:47
zlgand what was the outcome of the court case ?Sep 20 03:48
fewaApple claimed that free speech was "a effective circumvention technique of digital restrictions management"Sep 20 03:48
Willfewa:  well, that is kinda true...Sep 20 03:49
fewaWill, no its notSep 20 03:49
fewacause Apple had no copyright interest in the meta database of songsSep 20 03:49
fewaand the hash value contained in itSep 20 03:49
*Will was being facetiousSep 20 03:50
fewathat was the product of the user, and was random from the songs the user had on the deviceSep 20 03:50
*fewa takes people too seriouslySep 20 03:50
*_goblin has quit ("Ex-Chat")Sep 20 03:50
Willbecause free speech does tend to overthrow arbitrary restrictions.Sep 20 03:51
fewathis whole case and circumstance raises some public policy questionsSep 20 03:51
fewashould it be illegal to report the results of research you have done on devices you own?Sep 20 03:52
WillYou can't just use the DMCA as a wide spectrum gag to silence anything you don't like being said.Sep 20 03:52
ThistleWebfewa: here we get to the heart of it, you dont own them, you only licence them. They are however "sold" which is wrongSep 20 03:53
fewaWill, well a fascial take of the DMCA does leave real restrictionsSep 20 03:53
ThistleWebIMO anything that the makers assert any conditions of use over means they still own itSep 20 03:53
zlgit's not "sold" it's licensedSep 20 03:54
fewazlg, AutoCAD v VernorSep 20 03:54
fewaand the _many_ cases that case citesSep 20 03:54
ThistleWebwhich means that Apple stores etc should not be allowed to list things "for sale"Sep 20 03:54
fewasome involving Microsoft evenSep 20 03:54
fewa*AutoDesk v VernorSep 20 03:54
fewaBut in this case Apple had absolutely no copyright interestSep 20 03:55
ThistleWebmusic / video stores that sell region coded DVDs (which they all are, excpet the porn industry, porn is all region 0, playable anywhere) etc should not be allowed to class it as a saleSep 20 03:55
fewaand was trying to protect a manufactured monopoly on players that work with its media playerSep 20 03:56
fewaThistleWeb, because it does not fallow the first sale doctrineSep 20 03:56
fewaActually, I think they can, and fallowing the first sale doctrineSep 20 03:56
fewabut there needs to be a clear disclaimer on the Cover of the case that states the limitations of the mediumSep 20 03:57
Willfewa:  I don't know about this case, so I'm not talking about it specifically.  I'm just saying that, in a situation where there is no legit copyright claim on what is being said, the DMCA shouldn't be used to take something down.  "I don't like that" doesn't qualify as a copywrite claim.Sep 20 03:57
fewaas the Obama --> Gorden Brown incidence prooves abundentally clear, consumers are not made aware of the restriction on the products they buy, they are instead mislead and defraudedSep 20 03:58
fewaWill, absolutely, a copyright claim is essential to make a DMCA anti-circumcision claimSep 20 03:58
zlgmost if not all consumers understand that there are restrictions of use on all their products they buy.Sep 20 03:59
fewaI was also pointing out that in many cases enforcement of the DMCA anti-circumcision  provisions would be violations of free speech, and the government enforcement of monopoliesSep 20 03:59
fewaMonopolies of trade, in addition to the monopolies of copyrightSep 20 03:59
fewazlg, no, most users have no ideaSep 20 04:00
fewawhen a DVD doesn't work in another country they just assume its brokenSep 20 04:00
zlgfewa, no, most used have every idea, just because you say it does not make it true.Sep 20 04:00
zlgyou buy a car, yo uknow you are not allowed to speed, or drive on the wrong side of the road.Sep 20 04:00
zlgyou know you are not allowed to remove the breaks, or drop a supercharger on it.Sep 20 04:01
fewazlg, thats obviously totally wrongSep 20 04:01
zlgyou have to comply with the rules of the land, everyone knows thatSep 20 04:01
*lis` has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer))Sep 20 04:01
fewaand that conflation is completely misrepresentativeSep 20 04:01
zlgfewa, again, just because you say it, does not make it gospellSep 20 04:02
fewazlg, what wrong did blu-wiki do by discussing how to use another program to sync a iPodSep 20 04:02
fewa????Sep 20 04:02
fewaanswer thatSep 20 04:02
fewaWho could that action hurt?Sep 20 04:02
zlgWTF, who cares, I dont even know what your talkihn about, im not sure you do either. please, be a little less abstractSep 20 04:02
fewazlg, you made the argument that changes to a vehicle that could cause a crash should be compared to figuring out how to sync a iPod with a program that is not iTunesSep 20 04:03
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[anivar] RT @fish_pond Life after #secularism -- By Nizar Ahmed 20 04:03
fewathe difference is that noone can get injured in publishing information on how to sync a iPod with an alternative media programSep 20 04:04
zlgum, fewa, no I did not, I said consumers are generally aware of the restrictions on the products they buy.Sep 20 04:04
fewa<zlg> you know you are not allowed to remove the breaks, or drop a supercharger on it.Sep 20 04:04
zlgand you fire off about dlue wicki and iPods, WTF, ?Sep 20 04:05
fewazlg, because that is the exact comparison you are makingSep 20 04:05
zlgyes, thats right, you are not allowed to do that, and maintain the care legally on the road.Sep 20 04:05
WillEasy way out is just don't buy an ipod or use itunes.Sep 20 04:06
zlgsure you can do what you like and bash around your backyard, but to comply with the law, to LEGALLY use your car for it's intended purpose you cannot _CANNOT_ do such modificationsSep 20 04:06
fewayou think that breaking the DMCA by publishing information on how to use differn't programs, or make a DVD work on another operating system, is somehow comparable to doing dangerous alterations to an automobileSep 20 04:06
Willautomotive laws are there to keep motorists safe.  This has nothing to do with safetySep 20 04:07
fewaBut this is simply not trueSep 20 04:07
zlgyou can buy a knife, but you know that you are not allowed to do what you like with that knife becaseu you paid for it. there are laws (and morals) to stop you.,Sep 20 04:08
Willzlg: again, you are trying to take it into an argument about personal safetySep 20 04:08
fewazlg, is it against your morals to publish information on how you can sync a iPod with a program other than iTunes?Sep 20 04:09
fewacause it seems to me that you are making a highly tenacious argumentSep 20 04:09
zlgIf a product does not do what I want it to do, I do not buy that product.Sep 20 04:09
fewazlg, but is it against your morals?Sep 20 04:09
fewazlg, as in: should the Government step in and prevent people that are not you, from doing it?Sep 20 04:10
zlgso I could not give a flying figleaf about ipods or whatever else you're talking about, and I wonder i fyou dont like them, do you use them ? or just complain about them.,Sep 20 04:10
fewazlg, you didn't answer my questionSep 20 04:10
zlgyes, I did, it was "I DONT CARE" about some weard abstract thing about iPods, I dont have an iPod so why the F#$@ would I care about them ?Sep 20 04:11
Will(correct me if I'm wrong) things an ipod does not have that some players 1/3 the price do have:  voice recording, radio, ability to sync with programs besides itunes, ogg and flac support, ability to delete songs from the player without syncing to a music program.Sep 20 04:11
fewazlg, should the Government prevent others from publishing research on a file structure in the iPod?Sep 20 04:11
zlgagain, I would really love to want to help you fewaSep 20 04:11
fewazlg, what are you talking about?Sep 20 04:12
WillOh, one more thing:  SD card expansionSep 20 04:12
zlgthink about itSep 20 04:12
fewazlg, you clearly stated a position, and now you are sulking away from itSep 20 04:12
zlgim not sulking away from anying, I just dont give a fU%K about iPodsSep 20 04:12
zlgnever had one,Sep 20 04:12
zlgnever want oneSep 20 04:13
zlgwill never own oneSep 20 04:13
zlgso dont ask me about them because I just dont care.Sep 20 04:13
fewazlg, well you obviously care alot about trying to make it seem reasonable that the Government has a legitimate reason to regulate your study of one.Sep 20 04:13
zlgagain, do you understand what "I dont care" means ?Sep 20 04:14
fewazlg, if you didn't care you wouldn't have made that long arduous argumentSep 20 04:15
zlgmy government has not done that, if you're has get a new one thenSep 20 04:15
zlgI dont care about ipods is what I said.Sep 20 04:15
fewazlg, your government doesSep 20 04:15
fewaor at least the United States government hasSep 20 04:15
zlgwhat government is tha t?Sep 20 04:15
*Will doesn't really care about ipods either.Sep 20 04:16
zlgwell you'll be surprised that the US government is not the world governmentSep 20 04:16
fewazlg, Microsoft seems to think it isSep 20 04:16
fewajust look at the letter they write peopleSep 20 04:16
zlgI dont give a flying figleaf about microsoft eitherSep 20 04:17
fewa 20 04:17
fewapersonally I don't see why people use the things at allSep 20 04:21
fewamobile music playersSep 20 04:21
Willjogging is one good use for themSep 20 04:22
fewabut I don't see why the government should step in and say how I can use my deviceSep 20 04:22
Willor just gym in general sometimesSep 20 04:22
fewaor anybodies deviceSep 20 04:22
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zlgthats what I would have said, it's probably good for people who like to listen to things when they are you  know ... mobile :)Sep 20 04:22
Willprobably good for audiobooks too.Sep 20 04:24
flatfishnctcp %s VERSION mIRC 5.91 (16 bit) for Microsoft © Windows For WorkGroups 3.11®Sep 20 04:24
flatfishWhy does Linux have such a dismal desktop market share even after 15+ years of being free?Sep 20 04:26
zlggood question, probably because its not all about it being free, other factors are involvedSep 20 04:28
flatfishok..but Vista sucked, we all agree.. WinMe suckes...we all agree...let's not even talk about why can't free Linux gain some market?Sep 20 04:29
Willmarketing, not really trying until a few years ago, and possibly industry collusion.Sep 20 04:29
flatfishNahhhh...Free trumps it all....but it has to be free *and* goodSep 20 04:29
Willbut that said... <_< ... >_>  ... troll question??Sep 20 04:30
flatfishYea...anything that asks the obvious about Linux is a troll about addressing the points...Sep 20 04:30
zlgexactly, and secure, and accountable and reliable, and preferably well supported.Sep 20 04:30
Willok flatfish:  how can people know whether it is good or not if they haven't used itSep 20 04:30
flatfishI'll give Linux secure, but only becuase the black hats haven't deemed it a target yet, for desktops...Sep 20 04:31
zlgI know a Lambogini is a good car, but I have not driven one.Sep 20 04:31
_Hicham_hehSep 20 04:31 about netbooks...Linux was 1st...what happened when Windows versions were released?Sep 20 04:32
_Hicham_MS pressure babeSep 20 04:32
flatfishI have driven a Lamb....highly over rated....FWIW I was doing 70mph and never got out of 2nd gear :)Sep 20 04:32
Willflatfish:  people have a hard time buying preinstalled Linux if the stores refuse to carry itSep 20 04:32
_Hicham_MS was bribing the vendors of courseSep 20 04:33
flatfishre:preinstalled...true...but the netbook, Walmart, Dell, MSI, Vono something or other have tried and faildSep 20 04:33
flatfishBribing?Sep 20 04:33
_Hicham_failed ?Sep 20 04:33
flatfishCome on already,,,,,,it;s called marketing...Sep 20 04:33
WillSomeone fish up that Walmart document from BN's archivesSep 20 04:33
flatfishIBM, GM, Chrysler, etc all do it.Sep 20 04:34
Willalso, it helps when the people selling Linux put decent distros on it, not half broken onesSep 20 04:34
zlgmost expensive car ive driven was a BMW M1 or something, cost A$120,000 at the same time I just spent $80 on my houseSep 20 04:34
flatfishThink about this:why do you think the absolute worst (for your kids) cereals are at eye leve, for a kid, in the market?Sep 20 04:34
flatfishNice car!!!!!!Sep 20 04:34
flatfishLook, despite what you may believe, I don't hate Linux, I'm just telling it like it isSep 20 04:35
flatfishGive away a free iPod clone and you will have a riotSep 20 04:36
flatfishGive away Linux and nobody will be thereSep 20 04:36
flatfishFigure out why, and Linux may get somewhere on the desktop/.Sep 20 04:36
Willpossibly of interest: 20 04:36
flatfishWalmart is an IBM owned account....I have a friend who works the account..Talk to IBMSep 20 04:37
flatfishIn fact IBM runs Walmart's helpdesk...Sep 20 04:37
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zlgthere is a price/performance/quality/support ratio that has to be correctly balanced for a product to fly.Sep 20 04:38
Willflatfish: ipods aren't that special as mp3 players go, but they are backed by tons of hype and marketing.  Linux isn't at the moment.Sep 20 04:38
flatfishBottom line: Free is only good when Free is better or at least close to what is commercialSep 20 04:38
WillFree is only good when people think free is better or at least close to what they think commercial isSep 20 04:39
zlgexactlySep 20 04:39
flatfishHaving used iPods and other devices, overall, support (car audio, holders, interfaces etc) the iPod kills the competition.Sep 20 04:39
flatfishit's not even close.Sep 20 04:39
zlgthere is a stron argument for paying programmers to give them incentive to create commercal quality and therefore saleable product.Sep 20 04:39
Willflatfish:  I'll repeat this post from before you logged in: (correct me if I'm wrong) things an ipod does not have that some players 1/3 the price do have:  voice recording, radio, ability to sync with programs besides itunes, ogg and flac support, ability to delete songs from the player without syncing to a music program, SD card expansion.Sep 20 04:40
zlgmy phone does all that except mabey ogg and flakSep 20 04:41
zlgwhich I dont or have never usedSep 20 04:41
Willzlg: Red Hat gets paid.Sep 20 04:41
zlgthey also dont sell software, the sell maintenance and support contracts.Sep 20 04:42
flatfishso how do u explain prgrammers that give their hard work away only to see IBM profit off it?Sep 20 04:42
flatfishI think they are foolsSep 20 04:42
Willthat's kind of a general question.  The answer could change depending on the situation.Sep 20 04:43
cubezzzlots of people donate their time for various reasonsSep 20 04:43
zlgthere is a saying about "if you pay peanuts, you get monkies"Sep 20 04:43
flatfishLook, I think Linux is good, very good in fact, but until you guys link together and kill the fragmentation you are dead in the waterSep 20 04:43
flatfishI like the peanuts theory!!!!Sep 20 04:44
WillHow much fragmentation is there really, though, across maybe the top 3 distros?Sep 20 04:44
Willdefault wallpaper doesn't countSep 20 04:44
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flatfishIt doesn't matter....10 years ago to a noob Linux was Redhat. Today it's Ubuntu. Even the most zealto Linux fan will admit that Ubunt, will good, is really not the best distro in terms of qualit.Sep 20 04:46
flatfishWhat if we got the Ubuntu, PCLOS, Mepis etc developers together and created a totally new killer distro?Sep 20 04:47
*twitter ignores flatfishSep 20 04:47
Willzlg:  good thing Linux people don't all get paid peanuts then: 20 04:47
twitterzlg is MutexSep 20 04:47
flatfishYea twatter...u are afraid of the truth....How are those 1000's of nyms doing on /. ?Sep 20 04:47
Willflatfish:  ok, question is, how would it differ from the Ubuntu/Red Hat/Mandriva of today?Sep 20 04:48
flatfishIt would work...Sep 20 04:48
zlgtwittler, ?? again, you only seem to wakeup if someone says something you dont agree with.Sep 20 04:48
flatfishAs for Linux jobs, I advise everyone to learn Linux, it will increase your worthSep 20 04:49
Willflatfish: more specfically?Sep 20 04:49
flatfishTwatter is a moron....Sep 20 04:49
flatfishI am being resonable, no trolling, just askingSep 20 04:49
Willi.e. what doesn't work.  If we are going to improve, we need to zero in on specifics.Sep 20 04:49
flatfishMandriva tries to sell the user CODECS....bad, very badSep 20 04:50
WillMint includes them preinstalledSep 20 04:50
zlgor you can just accuse them of trolling or being a ??/ Mutex as opposed to facing you know, reality.Sep 20 04:51
flatfishAssuming you can get by the Mint has problems with big systems and multiple ddrivesSep 20 04:51
flatfishI like Mint though...Sep 20 04:51
Willflatfish:  I've never used a Linux installer to partition.  I do that with PartedMagicSep 20 04:51
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flatfishI'm not Mutex....Roy can verify this.,.,.I give Roy credit for letting me speak...he's kool that way..Sep 20 04:51
WillI used to do it with PartionMagic until I found out about PartedMagicSep 20 04:51
DaemonFCschestowitz, 20 04:52
flatfishPM totally killed a drive for me....I hate it...Sep 20 04:52
WillymmvSep 20 04:52
flatfishI supposeSep 20 04:52
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WillI've never had problems with PartedMagic.Sep 20 04:52
flatfishLots of people use and like itSep 20 04:52
DaemonFCit's not just IE users who are at risk, thinks like Windows Live Messenger use the IE rendering engine to display adsSep 20 04:52
DaemonFC*thingsSep 20 04:53
cubezzzI've never had problems with linux fdiskSep 20 04:53
flatfishI avoide IE...I use FFSep 20 04:53
WillI just like partitioning with a live system in ram.  Not mounted on any filesystem.Sep 20 04:53
flatfishI'm off to sleep...nice chatting with ya'll///GNSep 20 04:54
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DaemonFCthat's why I put Microsoft's ad servers in the hosts file resolving to and set IE's sliders all to highSep 20 04:55
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DaemonFCand don't keep any plugins installed in itSep 20 04:55
*Will must resist urge to make crack about "malicious advertising, Microsoft, and Best Buy"Sep 20 04:55
DaemonFCmalware spreaders are using advertisements on legit websites to pwn Internet Explorer usersSep 20 04:56
DaemonFCIE 8 is still swiss cheese near as I can tellSep 20 04:56
DaemonFCthey just got rid of a lot of the most obscene problemsSep 20 04:56
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DaemonFCthey keep refusing to patch problems on the Windows Vista and 7 versions because they claim UAC takes care of the problemsSep 20 04:57
DaemonFCnot all users have UAC on, so what then?Sep 20 04:57
cubezzzthis is making me nostalgic for text based internetSep 20 04:57
DaemonFCthe Windows XP version of IE 8 gets patched 8-12 times a monthSep 20 04:58
DaemonFCthat's not any improvement over IE 6Sep 20 04:58
zlgDaemonFC and how many patches PER HOUR does Linux Torvalds recieve ?Sep 20 04:59
cubezzzLinus :)Sep 20 04:59
DaemonFCI can't even imagine how anyone would put up with MSIESep 20 04:59
zlgYes, Linus*Sep 20 04:59
DaemonFCeven MS MVPs recommend avoiding itSep 20 04:59
cubezzzok one question DaemonFCSep 20 04:59
cubezzzwhy do you use IE at all?Sep 20 05:00
DaemonFCcubezzz, Directly? I don't.Sep 20 05:00
DaemonFCbut a lot of applications embed itSep 20 05:00
DaemonFCWindows Live Messenger, Winamp, etcSep 20 05:01
DaemonFCMS Office has its own rendering engine nowSep 20 05:01
DaemonFCso does Expression WebSep 20 05:01
DaemonFCMicrosoft is avoiding using the IE engine in a lot of their other productsSep 20 05:02
cubezzzafter what happened with the EU Commission you would think that IE would be separate from the rest of windowsSep 20 05:03
DaemonFCcubezzz, I don't think that IE will live on much longer using the Trident EngineSep 20 05:03
DaemonFCI'd imagine that it will be overhauled in IE 9 or 10Sep 20 05:04
DaemonFCit's getting old and it never performed wellSep 20 05:04
Willzlg:  I think someone made the same Linus/Linux typo on a kernel dev mailing list one time.  Led to a joke that rumors that Mr. Torvalds actually upgrades himself were true.Sep 20 05:05
zlglicky the HURD did not get up, or it would have been "Richardux"Sep 20 05:06
zlgand GNU/GNUSep 20 05:07
Willah Hurd.  With Linux (kernel) around, I wonder if it will ever see the light of day.Sep 20 05:07
WillBut I bet when it does, it will run Duke Nukem Forever!Sep 20 05:07
zlgconsidering how much code stallman does (NOT) product it's a still bornSep 20 05:08
cubezzzthere's Hurd LiveCD if you're curiousSep 20 05:09
cubezzzbut...Sep 20 05:09
cubezzzdoes not support USB devices, PCMCIA cards or sound cardsSep 20 05:09
twitterA dear john letter for Slashdot 20 05:10
twitterDebian Hurd does not do USB?Sep 20 05:11
cubezzzok, what I'm looking at is old: 20051117Sep 20 05:11
zlgtwitter bye !Sep 20 05:12
DaemonFCDuke Nukem Forever has only been in production since 1997, right?Sep 20 05:13
DaemonFCHURD has been since 1984Sep 20 05:13
cubezzzyou can download Hurd thoughSep 20 05:13
cubezzzI wouldn't compare it to DNFSep 20 05:14
DaemonFCyou can download HURD, can't do much with it thoughSep 20 05:18
WillI could be wrong here, but it seems that things that stay in development for significantly longer than the average dev time for a kind of product tend to either be extraordinarily great (Half-Life 2), or a spectacular failure (Vista)Sep 20 05:19
DaemonFCWill, I got ahold of most of the pre-Vista builds of "Longhorn" and it was actually not bad til after the "reset" when all kinds of bloat started getting tacked onto itSep 20 05:21
DaemonFCI was not thrilled with how much RAM DWM wanted in Vista eitherSep 20 05:21
WillDaemonFC:  the reset was probably what killed it.Sep 20 05:21
WillOk, I haven't kept up with HURD, nor do I have any skin in the project, but my guess is that there probably isn't much developer enthusiasm for getting HURD off the ground when the energy could be better spent improving the existing, viable, and proven open source kernel that we already have.Sep 20 05:22
DaemonFCWhere things actually went wrong for Vista was in Windows XPSep 20 05:23
DaemonFCthey should have come up with a way to run you as a normal user in XPSep 20 05:24
DaemonFCand not have a system where you couldn't do anything, including changing the clockSep 20 05:24
WillDaemonFC:  OSX does the admin by default thing too, oddly enough.Sep 20 05:24
DaemonFCthey should have had UAC starting in XPSep 20 05:24
DaemonFCyeah, but in OS X, the administrator is pretty much a normal user with sudo access thoughSep 20 05:25
DaemonFCif I recall correctlySep 20 05:25
DaemonFCthe actual root account is lockedSep 20 05:25
DaemonFCUbuntu pretty much does the same thingSep 20 05:25
WillDaemonFC:  XP's long reign didn't help either.  Consumer Inertia works great for Microsoft, until it works against it.Sep 20 05:26
zlgif it works against themSep 20 05:26
DaemonFCwell, just having everything on XP running as Administrator creates a security nightmareSep 20 05:26
DaemonFCbecause a bug anywhere can enable a remote exploitSep 20 05:26
WillDid I say XP's long reign _didn't_ (past tense).  Oops.  My mistake.  XP's long reign doesn't.  There. Fixed.Sep 20 05:27
zlgxI would guess running Linux in Su would cause similar problemsSep 20 05:27
Willzlg: right. Which is why it is strongly discouraged and never allowed by default.Sep 20 05:27
DaemonFCas long as XP is used by a big chunk of the market, even things like Firefox will have to be designed in such a way that makes them XP compatibleSep 20 05:27
cubezzzWill, it is sometimesSep 20 05:28
DaemonFCso Firefox 4 might even have to be designed around a 10 year old (by then) OSSep 20 05:28
cubezzzembedix for exampleSep 20 05:28
Willdidn't know about thatSep 20 05:28
WillDaemonFC: only the Windows version of FirefoxSep 20 05:29
DaemonFCmeh, Firefox is really just a Windows program with a second rate port to LinuxSep 20 05:29
DaemonFCit's not just your imagination if the Windows version smokes the Linux oneSep 20 05:30
zlgyou cant blame someone who wants to be popular targetting the largest market.Sep 20 05:30
Willthe only real difference I've noticed is flash, which is a well known Adobe problem.Sep 20 05:30
DaemonFCFirefox 3.5 on Windows is still a little over 15-20% faster than the Linux versions, overallSep 20 05:30
DaemonFCit's why these Linux distributions shouldn't be shipping Firefox or Gecko-based browsersSep 20 05:31
zlgall my browsers are far faster than my net connection.Sep 20 05:31
DaemonFCthey should be concentrating on WebkitSep 20 05:31
cubezzzFirefox was descended from MozillaSep 20 05:31
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cubezzzcross-platformSep 20 05:32
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DaemonFCyeah, just because it builds on a platform doesn't mean it's optimized for that platformSep 20 05:32
DaemonFCFirefox is very different on each platformSep 20 05:32
_Hicham_DaemonFC the computer scientistSep 20 05:33
zlgat least on this he's rightSep 20 05:33
_Hicham_why do u talk about Firefox since u hate it?Sep 20 05:33
_Hicham_troll ?Sep 20 05:33
zlg_Hicham_ why do you talk about MS if you hate them ?Sep 20 05:33
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_Hicham_zlg : I try not to talk about MSSep 20 05:34
WillI've never benchmarked them.  I can say one thing that any browser will need to compete well against Firefox:  Adblock.Sep 20 05:34
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_Hicham_since we have choiceSep 20 05:34
_Hicham_Will : Google Chrome have AdSweepSep 20 05:35
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cubezzzwell if you trace things back you will see everyone copied NCSA MosaicSep 20 05:35
cubezzzUnix basedSep 20 05:35
WillHicham:  If it works, then good enough.Sep 20 05:35
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_Hicham_But no browser compare to Firefox in functionalitySep 20 05:35
cubezzzand AmigaDOS and WIndows and etc etcSep 20 05:36
_Hicham_really, no browser can compare to it in that fieldSep 20 05:36
_Hicham_other browser might be more speedy, more responsiveSep 20 05:36
_Hicham_but not fully functional as firefoxSep 20 05:36
cubezzzlynx is faster than all of themSep 20 05:36
Willbut Firefox is the all-arounder.Sep 20 05:36
_Hicham_u can optimize firefoxSep 20 05:37
_Hicham_but u will get a lot of segfaultsSep 20 05:37
zlgcant change font sizeSep 20 05:37
_Hicham_zlg : where ?Sep 20 05:37
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zlgin FFSep 20 05:37
_Hicham_zlg : ?Sep 20 05:37
_Hicham_are u talking seriously ?Sep 20 05:37
WillI canSep 20 05:37
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zlgsorry I was just going by what Roy Swestowitz said the other day.  my bad.Sep 20 05:38
Willctrl+, ctrl-Sep 20 05:38
Willor cmd if on OSXSep 20 05:38
zlgtell it to the RoySep 20 05:38
Willctrl-0 to go to default sizeSep 20 05:38
zlgcool,Sep 20 05:38
Willand in the preferences menu, you can change font and font sizeSep 20 05:39
_Hicham_zlg : u don't use FF ?Sep 20 05:39
Willand have your font settings override the website font settingsSep 20 05:39
zlgI have it on here, but I tend not to bother with it, It has nothing I needSep 20 05:39
_Hicham_ah, what do u use ?Sep 20 05:39
zlgsome version of ie, but i would have to look up what one, i dont find it an issue.Sep 20 05:40
*Will wonders what zlg sees in IE anymore.Sep 20 05:40
_Hicham_zlg : u don't use linux at all ?Sep 20 05:40
zlgwhat do I see it, it,  um everything I look atSep 20 05:41
Will?Sep 20 05:41
_Hicham_or ur using IE with wine ?Sep 20 05:41
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zlgIve been using windows and alternative OS's for 30 + years,Sep 20 05:41
_Hicham_and u settled down for Windows ?Sep 20 05:42
Willit's just that its rare to see someone that knows about more than one browser that sticks with IE.Sep 20 05:42
zlgIve used Unix and Linux and VMS, and mickbug, pipbug, amstrados, AmigaOS for a long long time.Sep 20 05:42
zlgto the point where I dont care as long as it works.Sep 20 05:42
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zlgI used to use FF heaps, and it was good, but the functions I used to use I no longer use.Sep 20 05:43
_Hicham_interesting theorySep 20 05:43
cubezzzwell I want source codeSep 20 05:43
cubezzzI never had the source code for anything except Linux and MinixSep 20 05:44
ziggyfishhello allSep 20 05:44
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zlgI used linux for years and years, and never did i have a requirement to look at or modify the source code.Sep 20 05:44
_Hicham_zlg : never ?Sep 20 05:44
zlgso "FOR ME" there was no point in having that "feature"Sep 20 05:44
zlgyes, NEVERSep 20 05:44
cubezzzwell everyone is different but...Sep 20 05:44
_Hicham_I like to have source codeSep 20 05:45
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_Hicham_and modify it for my needsSep 20 05:45
cubezzzI think it's a big deal to have OS code and driver codeSep 20 05:45
ziggyfish_Hicham_: me tooSep 20 05:45
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cubezzzI've had all sorts of access to driver code, but not very much OS codeSep 20 05:45
zlgok how often do you view and modify the source code ?Sep 20 05:45
cubezzzSCO Unix showed me some thoughSep 20 05:46
DaemonFCI'm thinking of setting up a fan clubSep 20 05:46
cubezzzzlg: I spent probably 6 hours a week looking at driversSep 20 05:46
_Hicham_zlg : everytime I have a problem at leastSep 20 05:46
DaemonFC_Hicham_ can be the President and TreasurerSep 20 05:46
zlgand you have problems often ?Sep 20 05:46
cubezzzmodded the brook tree stuff for tv tunersSep 20 05:46
ziggyfishzig when I use new software, I always like to see the implementationSep 20 05:47
_Hicham_zlg : with major updatesSep 20 05:47
cubezzzwell hp 4470c was a huge problemSep 20 05:47
zlgokSep 20 05:47
cubezzzI don't have big problems oftenSep 20 05:47
cubezzzI modded mplayerSep 20 05:47
_Hicham_zlg : If u are living on the edge, u will need source codeSep 20 05:47
Willzlg:  I haven't done much tinkering with Linux source code.  But the fact that it is open lets me know that there's little chance that any shenanigans were hidden in there.Sep 20 05:47
Willor else they would be found and stripped outSep 20 05:48
cubezzzWill, well you can compile it :)Sep 20 05:48
_Hicham_zlg : ah, and I forgot, optimizationSep 20 05:48
cubezzzyou can't do that on many 'mainstream' OSSep 20 05:48
_Hicham_optimization is really a big dealSep 20 05:48
zlgallthough major flaws still remain undetected for years, with the source code open.  If thats a "failsafe" it's not doing so wellSep 20 05:49
_Hicham_u can optimize software for ur platformSep 20 05:49
DaemonFCWhat's funny with those Bing ads is that they're describing their own search results wit hthe mindless and irrelevant chatterSep 20 05:49
_Hicham_and ur machineSep 20 05:49
WillI can compile source code.  And have on some big stuff before.Sep 20 05:49
cubezzzright now I am porting stuff to embedixSep 20 05:49
_Hicham_zlg : major flaws ?Sep 20 05:49
zlgyes, like that SSH one just recentlySep 20 05:49
zlgpretty majorSep 20 05:50
_Hicham_are u talking about that debian stuff ?Sep 20 05:50
Willwasn't that a debian patch on vanilla ssh that did it?Sep 20 05:50
_Hicham_zlg : is that what u r talking about ?Sep 20 05:51
zlgill go find the linkSep 20 05:51
ziggyfish_DaemonFC, the funny thing is, Bing looks to me like a site for me to buy things and not a site for researching informationSep 20 05:51
cubezzzThe flaw was the removal of most of the entropy (randomness) from the key generation processSep 20 05:51
cubezzzit was fixed btwSep 20 05:51
ziggyfish_where as Google looks like a site for searchingSep 20 05:51
zlgit was fixed when it was found, but how long (in years) was it undetected, or detected and exploited until someone at SUN found it ?Sep 20 05:52
cubezzzI don't think I've ever had an ssh problem myselfSep 20 05:52
ziggyfish_zlg, this sound like FUD?Sep 20 05:52
Willtyping in random searches that are unflattering to MS in Bing and Google and then comparing results can be amusing sometimes.Sep 20 05:52
cubezzzok, well let me just say on my machines you can only ssh in from one user account and no one whos what that is :)Sep 20 05:53
_Hicham_zlg : this is not a major issueSep 20 05:53
cubezzzso we are carefulSep 20 05:53
Willof course, I'm sure we can also find Windows flaws that stretch back several releases.Sep 20 05:53
_Hicham_it affected Debian based distrosSep 20 05:53
_Hicham_zlg : it is not upstream faultSep 20 05:53
cubezzzI don't even turn sshd on unless I'm away from the server's physical locationSep 20 05:54
_Hicham_zlg : it is debian fault, and more precisely, the developer's faultSep 20 05:54
ziggyfish_Will, their has been known flaws that haven't been fixed for yearsSep 20 05:54
cubezzzok, so you have problems either waySep 20 05:54
cubezzzwhich one do you really want, no code or with code?Sep 20 05:54
ziggyfish_cubezzz, I would want the code, so I can see for myselfSep 20 05:55
cubezzzexcellent :)Sep 20 05:55
zlgit does not seem to make alot of difference, code or no code the bugs and flaws are still there and in numbers.Sep 20 05:56
cubezzzzlg: I fix bugs, it's part of my job(s)Sep 20 05:56
zlggood for you.Sep 20 05:56
zlgso it's in your interest that code is produced with bugs ?Sep 20 05:57
ziggyfish_zlg, the difference is I can fixed them with the source code, without I can'tSep 20 05:57
cubezzzeven reading the comments is helpful for that matterSep 20 05:58
zlgyou can fix them with the source code if you are an experienced programmer and have nothing better to do, like make a living, or actually use the App you want to make a livingSep 20 05:58
ziggyfish_zlg, but without the source code, even if your an experienced programmer, you have to wait until it is fully expoited or wait until the company produces the fixSep 20 06:00
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zlgor use something that works.Sep 20 06:00
ziggyfish_zlg, with the source code you could always hire someone to fix it for youSep 20 06:00
Willcome to think of it, zlg, what is your point on that?Sep 20 06:01
ziggyfish_zlg, that's why I use Linux, it just worksSep 20 06:01
zlgIf im writing a letter I want to flash up a wordprocessor and start typing, I dont want to be frigging with compilers or source code to write a damn letter.Sep 20 06:01
WillThere are other benefits of open sourceSep 20 06:01
Willyou don't have to mess with compilers to write a letterSep 20 06:01
zlglike what ?Sep 20 06:01
ziggyfish_zlg, FUDSep 20 06:01
zlgoh wait, someone does not like what im saying, you now going to call me a troll.Sep 20 06:02
WillFlexibility, knowing that it won't go under if a company goes under, benefiting from a wider developer pool than any one company can provide.Sep 20 06:02
zlgyour word for anyone with a different opinion to yours?Sep 20 06:02
ziggyfish_zlg, I've never had to compile anything for the last 3 years, and even then it was something from a site that only cared about windowsSep 20 06:02
cubezzz*ahem* porting?Sep 20 06:02
Willzlg: no, but they will call you out when you say things that aren't true, like needing a compiler to write an office document.Sep 20 06:02
zlgso for you ziggy having the source code is pointless, fair enoughSep 20 06:03
cubezzzok, well if you don't compile you don't compileSep 20 06:03
zlgyou need a compiler to fix the code of the wordprocessor if you have to modify to code to get it to work, IS WHAT i said.Sep 20 06:03
cubezzzthe only word processor-like entity I ever compiled was vim and a early hexediter which doesn't countSep 20 06:04
ziggyfish_zlg, no, having the source code means that I know that if I an addition to the software I can compile it myselfSep 20 06:04
ziggyfish_zlg, same with non-opensource software, right?Sep 20 06:05
cubezzzI don't enjoy fixing bugs in other people's code btwSep 20 06:05
zlgyes, someone else was saying they needed the source to fix problems, I was just stating that rather than spending time "fixing problems" with the source code, I would rather be doing the thing I entended to do in the first placeSep 20 06:05
cubezzzyes, when necessarySep 20 06:05
Willzlg: well, what is your point?  In a proprietary word processor, if thre are bugs, you are at the companies mercy if you want the bugs fixed, and you might have to pay for the bugfix.  With an open source wordprocessor, if a bug is found you can be in the same position--minus having to pay for the bugfix--if you'd like.Sep 20 06:05
ziggyfish_zlg, you could always work around the errorSep 20 06:05
WillBut you do have the option of fixing it if you want.  Or improving it.Sep 20 06:06
cubezzzthere are bugs in closed source things, like WP for MS DOS for exampleSep 20 06:06
zlgif you are not an experienced programmer with lots of time on your hands a problem with OO will bring you down just as quickSep 20 06:06
cubezzzdrivers and porting for me mostlySep 20 06:07
ziggyfish_zlg, work around it, or better yet, report the error to one of the developers currently working on it.Sep 20 06:07
cubezzzprobably wouldn't touch OO or browserSep 20 06:07
zlgand in the mean time, if it does not do what you want ?Sep 20 06:07
zlgyou sit and do nothing ?Sep 20 06:07
Willzlg:  A problem with Word will bring you down regardless of your programming skills.  And your chances of being able to talk to an OO dev are much better than your chances of contacting a Word dev.Sep 20 06:08
ziggyfish_zlg, so what problem do you have that you can't get around, maybe I can helpSep 20 06:09
zlgmabey, but if you are not an experienced programmer (guru) with lots of time on your hands having the code is pointless.Sep 20 06:09
zlgNone, everthing I have works just as I expect it too.Sep 20 06:09
zlgas it shouldSep 20 06:09
Willzlg: what you haven't yet made clear to me is how open source puts you in a _worse_ position than proprietary doesSep 20 06:09
zlgotherwise I would use something else , that does workSep 20 06:09
ziggyfish_zlg, if I was blind, having a TV would be pointlessSep 20 06:09
cubezzzok, let's assume you are a programmer for a secondSep 20 06:10
cubezzzyou're trying to learn stuff and you see something interesting, it could be anythingSep 20 06:10
cubezzzok, so you.....Sep 20 06:10
cubezzzcheck out the source code, yaySep 20 06:10
Willcubezzz is bringing an advantage to open source I forgot to mentionSep 20 06:11
cubezzzor you're adding or porting somethingSep 20 06:11
zlgopen source puts me in a worse position than proprietary code as most of the applications I use work, no sorry ALL of my apps work.Sep 20 06:11
Willthe learning/teaching factorSep 20 06:11
Willzlg: and the open source ones don't work?Sep 20 06:11
zlgcubezzz say your a NON-programmer for a second.Sep 20 06:12
zlgthe open source ones dont existSep 20 06:12
Willzlg: in what area(s)?Sep 20 06:12
Willfinding the gaps is the first step to correcting them.Sep 20 06:12
zlghuge number of areas, how about a decent Printed circuit board design tool, (commercail qualityh), or a scada superviser, or a Ladder logic interpretter,Sep 20 06:13
zlgor satellite phone interface and configuration software.Sep 20 06:13
ziggyfish_hangon, give me a min, let me do a google searchSep 20 06:14
zlgor commercail quality PGA design tools, electronics simulations,Sep 20 06:14
ziggyfish_ Ladder logic interpretter - 20 06:15
zlgGet me a configuration utility for a nera 3080 satphone please.Sep 20 06:15
Willzlg: you are learning another aspect of open source culture right now: communitySep 20 06:15
zlgok try IEC 61131-3  compliant.Sep 20 06:16
ziggyfish_ scada superviser - 20 06:16
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ziggyfish_zlg, wineSep 20 06:17
ziggyfish_ - Printed circuit board design toolSep 20 06:18
ziggyfish_zlg, anymoreSep 20 06:18
zlgwine nice to drink, but NO ONE in their right mind would think to put another 2 or 3 layers of API and software in a SCADA system. (that they expect to work).Sep 20 06:18
cubezzzok, we are way off track here :)Sep 20 06:18
ziggyfish_zlg, look and you shall findSep 20 06:18
cubezzzmy own goal was to be able to program my own stuffSep 20 06:19
zlgthere are all those tools I know, Ive look at them all, thats why I said commercial grade. which they are decidely NOT.Sep 20 06:19
Willzlg: but if, even after a careful search, you still have a few areas where you can't find sufficient open source programs, then use proprietary stuff for now.  But maybe ask around a bit.  Maybe you can talk to someone or hire someone to get a program made.Sep 20 06:19
cubezzzI reached my goal, and i've never used a satphone :)Sep 20 06:19
zlgLook up Citect and IsaGraf, and find me good FOSS equivsSep 20 06:20
Willzlg: but also, from the sound of it, this isn't exactly the kind of software your average user (home or maybe even enterprise) would use anyway.Sep 20 06:21
zlgand If i get paid $500 for one hour work on a sat phone, I dont want to be waisting 3 hours searching for some software that after all is not going to do any better OR cheaper than what I have or am usingSep 20 06:21
cubezzzyou could have access to code without it being FOSSSep 20 06:21
cubezzzwhich is the case much of the timeSep 20 06:21
Willnot saying that the gap isn't important, just that there are large user sections that the gap wouldn't effect.Sep 20 06:21
cubezzzin fact, it was the case almost all the time, in the recent pastSep 20 06:22
ziggyfish_zlg, I only needed 5 minsSep 20 06:22
cubezzzFOSS is newSep 20 06:22
zlgevery time you use a tap, use electricity, go to the toilet, you are using SCADA systems. you probably use them more than any one single thing, you just dont know it.Sep 20 06:22
Willor see if the commercial vendors will provide a Linux version of their software, even if it is closed sourceSep 20 06:23
zlgFOSS is OLDSep 20 06:23
Willzlg: I was talking about computer usersSep 20 06:23
zlgso was ISep 20 06:23
zlg:)Sep 20 06:23
Willhow many people know what scada means?Sep 20 06:23
ziggyfish_ , looks like it is web basedSep 20 06:24
zlgSupervisory Control And Data AcquisitionSep 20 06:24
Willby your own words, most people "just don't know it"Sep 20 06:24
zlgit's what controls power stations, water supply, electrinic, factories, plants, well just about everything.Sep 20 06:24
ziggyfish_ 20 06:25
cubezzzlolSep 20 06:26
cubezzzwell I guess I better get working on my own scada systemSep 20 06:26
ziggyfish_lolSep 20 06:26
zlgyes, I know what citect isSep 20 06:26
Willziggyfish:  This is good work btw. I could use some ammo for talks in this area.Sep 20 06:27
cubezzzno one can program _everything_Sep 20 06:27
cubezzzStallman has probably stopped writing codeSep 20 06:27
zlgalmost no one can program _ANything_Sep 20 06:27
ziggyfish_zlg, my point is that it's cross platform, meaning I can use this software anywhere if I got a browserSep 20 06:27
ziggyfish_ 20 06:28
ziggyfish_Will, no problem, it's fun seeing proving trolls wrongSep 20 06:28
cubezzzzlg: it's like you're going into a room full of carpenters and telling them they can buy furniture at SearsSep 20 06:28
zlggee I could watch a movie frmo a Linux web server, does that mean im using Linux ?Sep 20 06:28
zlgthey canSep 20 06:29
Willwell, if there was no Linux, how would you have watched the movie?Sep 20 06:29
cubezzzwell, I happen to like programming, so of course I want source codeSep 20 06:29
ziggyfish_zlg, it means I have the option to run linux if I wantSep 20 06:29
zlgthey are free to do so if they wish. are you saying you are telling them they cannot ?Sep 20 06:29
*ziggyfish_ nods at Will, good pointSep 20 06:30
zlgI like programming too, I dont like programming other peoples code, I tend to like to do my own.Sep 20 06:30
zlgFeels better than copying the efforts of others, to me, anyway, more moral.Sep 20 06:30
ziggyfish_zlg, well than you don't like programming software used by other peopleSep 20 06:30
cubezzzI did mention porting and bug fixes yes? :)Sep 20 06:30
zlgI dont like programming, by using other peoples programs,Sep 20 06:31
zlgIt';s not really me then, its someone elses idea's.Sep 20 06:31
cubezzzyou can learn what to avoidSep 20 06:31
Will but zlg: what I mean is this: if there truly is a dearth of quality scada software that runs in Linux, then that is a problem that needs to be addressed.  But for the general populatoin, how many average users need to be able to use scada software?Sep 20 06:31
ziggyfish_zlg, so you have written your own compiler and OSSep 20 06:31
ziggyfish_?Sep 20 06:31
cubezzzor learn something goodSep 20 06:31
zlgYes, oftenSep 20 06:31
DaemonFC 20 06:32
DaemonFCroflSep 20 06:32
zlgfor my embedded systems, I write everything gui, OS, I/O the works, dont you ?Sep 20 06:32
ziggyfish_yesSep 20 06:32
zlgand I do it all from scratch, clean room, using C.Sep 20 06:32
cubezzz....Sep 20 06:32
zlgwell there you go themSep 20 06:32
Willzlg: if you don't like programming with other people's code, then I know you've never done numerical/mathematical computing.Sep 20 06:32
zlgOk Will, I have but whatever, clearly your psysic abilities trump mine :)Sep 20 06:33
DaemonFC 20 06:33
ziggyfish_zlg, sorry, but a couple of minutes ago, you said your not an experienced programmerSep 20 06:33
zlgso ive never studies binary spanning trees or the like, or boolean logic ?Sep 20 06:33
Willzlg: so you never used math libraries at all?Sep 20 06:34
zlgI was im a VERY experienced programmerSep 20 06:34
zlgI said *Sep 20 06:34
zlgactually, no I do not generally use any libraries, I code those functions myself.Sep 20 06:34
Willzlg: no lapack, blas, no numpy, nothing like that?Sep 20 06:35
zlgI dont nkowm, did what I say not convey enough information ?Sep 20 06:35
Willzlg: if not, then I stand corrected.Sep 20 06:35
Willzlg: it's just that there are enough good quality wheels already out there that I'd think most people would rather stand on the shoulders of giants than reinvent the wheel, but what do I know, I guess.Sep 20 06:37
zlgthere is a big difference to looking up how some guy did it, and saying to yourself, "why bother thinking, ill just do what he did".Sep 20 06:38
Willthere's also some merit to using code that has been stress-tested for decades.Sep 20 06:39
ziggyfish_zlg, as long as what he did works, does it matter, if you did it your self or not?Sep 20 06:39
ziggyfish_your really only wasting timeSep 20 06:39
zlgthen explain the huge number of bugs in say Ubuntu, would there be so many if everyone did not just do what the guy before did ?Sep 20 06:40
cubezzzzlg: which operating system are you using now?Sep 20 06:41
Willzlg: isn't that also why there are some bugs? You write new code, it has new features, maybe those features haven't properly settled yet and they still have glitches.Sep 20 06:42
zlgyour bias is starting to show, what does it matter what I use ?Sep 20 06:42
WillIf everyone only did what the guy before did and nothing more, wouldn't it be stagnant and no new bugs would crop up?Sep 20 06:42
zlgif create something from a buggy chain, your product will increase the number (total sum) of bugs you haveSep 20 06:43
zlgbugs can multiply like a virusSep 20 06:44
WillThat's true for proprietary and open source.  But hopefully over time the chain gets tested and refined and the bugs get worked out.  Look at the process of Debian Sid --> Debian Testing --> Debian Stable.Sep 20 06:45
zlgnot like in the doco "code rush" days, were foss were actually trying to ship with zero bugs.Sep 20 06:46
WillEven I sometimes think the 6 month window that several distros have settled on might be a little too frequent.  Still, name any Windows or OSX release that has shipped with zero bugs.Sep 20 06:47
zlgnot zero fair enough , but 40,000 !!! is a bit muchSep 20 06:48
Willwhere did that number come from?Sep 20 06:48
zlgubuntu bug trakerSep 20 06:49
Willand does it count only the core OS, or does it include extra applications as well?Sep 20 06:49
zlgit's for Ubuntu GNU/LinuxSep 20 06:49
WillBecause if it counts things like Gimp, Firefox, Thunderbird, Inkscape, etc, then it isn't a fair comparison.Sep 20 06:49
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Willcheck again or provide a link so we can verifySep 20 06:50
zlgie, Office and so on are included in MS's bugs and faultsSep 20 06:50
WillBecause they are MS products.  Is every concievable third party Windows app included?Sep 20 06:50
WillBecause MS has been known to play that counting game beforeSep 20 06:51
ziggyfish_yes, but can you give me the exact some of _known_bugs in MSSep 20 06:51
zlgsorry I was a bit off with my 40,000 bugs, I should have been more conciseSep 20 06:51
zlgit's actually Open 62889  over 60,000 now, and growing faster than shrinkingSep 20 06:52
Willwell, the number of open source apps total is probably growing too.Sep 20 06:52
zlg 20 06:52
Willok, and here's an example of one of the latest ones: 20 06:53
Willthat's a Firefox bug, not an ubuntu bugSep 20 06:53
Willto be very specific, it might be a bug in the Ubuntu package of Firefox.Sep 20 06:54
zlglook at the 30 critical, most are kernel issues.Sep 20 06:54
ziggyfish_1273Sep 20 06:54
WillI'll check that in a minute, but with the rapidfire pace of Linux kernel development, I wouldn't be surprised if bugs open and close on it all the time.Sep 20 06:55
Willon the dev branchSep 20 06:55
ziggyfish_zlg, there are zero that are confirmed, critical and ubuntu 9.04, and are not package specificSep 20 06:56
zlgim looking at the list now, and wondering if the word "CONFIRMED" next to most of them would tend to put your case into question.Sep 20 06:57
zlgkernel bugs are generally not package specificSep 20 06:57
Willzlg: re-read what ziggyfish just said, then explain to me where I'm not getting itSep 20 06:57
zlgthey are kernel specific, ipso fatso, "kernel bugs".Sep 20 06:57
WillLast I checked, things like adobe acrobat, openoffice, hp printer drivers, and drupal aren't the Linux kernel.Sep 20 06:58
ziggyfish_I like this bug 20 06:59
Willziggyfish:  It is by far the most severe and troublesome.Sep 20 06:59
Willand persistentSep 20 06:59
zlgand SIGSEGV is not a kernel function ?Sep 20 06:59
ziggyfish_zlg, url = ?Sep 20 07:00
Willzlg: adobe acrobat bug.  Not kernel bugSep 20 07:00
zlg 20 07:01
zlgSIGSEGV is a kernal droping it's bundle trying to cope with adobe app, it's a kernel bug.Sep 20 07:01
Willand of course, adobe's stuff being closed source, there isn't much Ubuntu devs can do to fix the problems if Adobe's stuff is subparSep 20 07:01
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ziggyfish_SIGSEGV is the signal sent to a process when it makes an invalid memory reference, or segmentation faulSep 20 07:02
Willzlg: did you read it?  Then tell me, what is crashing: acrobat, or the kernel?Sep 20 07:02
ziggyfish_this means the program is trying to access memory that is not it's own (like null pointer)Sep 20 07:03
zlgI can tell you im quite sure the OS is responsible for segmentation error handling and not the Application.Sep 20 07:03
zlgsee programms dont access memory, they communicate with the Operating System..Sep 20 07:04
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zlgThe Operating System is responsible for Operating THE SYSTEM".Sep 20 07:04
zlgGo figue !!! :)Sep 20 07:04
Will"In both cases, the acroread process dies and if there were other tabs with acroread in them, they are also affected."Sep 20 07:04
ziggyfish_run the following program on any system, and tell me it is the OSSep 20 07:05
ziggyfish_int main(){Sep 20 07:05
ziggyfish_int *a = (int*)0;Sep 20 07:05
ziggyfish_*a = 0;Sep 20 07:05
ziggyfish_}Sep 20 07:05
Willor this:Sep 20 07:06
Will%0|%0Sep 20 07:06
zlgwhat if you run that code on a computer with NO OS ?Sep 20 07:07
ziggyfish_Will did your operating system crash when you ran it?Sep 20 07:07
zlgwhat's you point ?Sep 20 07:07
Willzlg: computer with NO OS running code......... ?Sep 20 07:07
zlgI would hope not, but I have not tried too,Sep 20 07:07
ziggyfish_my point is that the OS did handle it, but because it's a application error, it displayed a nice error for meSep 20 07:07
zlgWill that surprises you ?Sep 20 07:07
ziggyfish_rather than the whole system crashingSep 20 07:08
Willno, just that it sounds like a really primative machineSep 20 07:08
zlgok, im surprised  you think the existance of an OS equates to sophisicationSep 20 07:09
ziggyfish_like windows 98 didSep 20 07:09
*ziggyfish_ remembers the BSoDSep 20 07:10
Willprimative might be the wrong word, but even tiny things often have some simple embedded os usually these days, right?Sep 20 07:10
zlgyou need a good memory for that ziggy agreed. I remeber them too, but awile ago, LOOOG wileSep 20 07:10
ziggyfish_Will, android?Sep 20 07:10
Willvirtual machineSep 20 07:10
Willright?Sep 20 07:11
zlgusually, they have some for of bootstrap loader as minimum yesSep 20 07:11
cubezzzhaha, he's a microsoft userSep 20 07:11
zlgbut a bootstrap loader does not an OS make.Sep 20 07:11
Willalthough I did do a little assembly programing a long time agoSep 20 07:11
Willno os there, just register manipulationSep 20 07:11
zlgthats right, even using assembler you can get a "bootstrap OS" that have basic I/O allowing you to write to the onboard memory.Sep 20 07:12
Willcubezzz : I didn't get that last postSep 20 07:12
cubezzzhe's just trollingSep 20 07:13
zlgit might even have a simple assembly compiler on it for you.Sep 20 07:13
Willcubezz: I gathered that a while agoSep 20 07:13
ziggyfish_Will, I have done some OS development, and know that the processor it self, produces this interrupt, when a program is accessing memory it shouldn't (that's why it's called 'protected mode')Sep 20 07:13
Willziggyfish: I've not really done any OS devSep 20 07:14
ziggyfish_if the OS doesn't handle it, then the processor simple restarts (or faults again which also the OS ddin't handle)Sep 20 07:14
Willconvenient how we just slid right out of that "kernel bug" argument like that.Sep 20 07:14
zlgany more to add ?Sep 20 07:15
ziggyfish_Will, if you get some time and you want to do some OS dev, here's a link you may need 20 07:15
Willwell, not until we find an actual bug in the kernel itself.Sep 20 07:15
ziggyfish_lolSep 20 07:15
zlg47768 Mount Root Files System Failed   sleep well tonight.Sep 20 07:16
ziggyfish_mm, interesting, that is a hardware issue.Sep 20 07:17
zlgare you now going to tell me the filesystem is not in the kernel ?Sep 20 07:17
zlgLOLSep 20 07:17
zlgwow, masters of the BUCK PASS.,Sep 20 07:17
zlgthey call you teflon will ?Sep 20 07:17
*cubezzz has kicked zlg from #boycottnovell (cubezzz)Sep 20 07:18
cubezzzsorry, I had to do itSep 20 07:18
Willcubezzz: watching him grasp for straws so desperately was starting to get old anyway.Sep 20 07:19
ziggyfish_lol, that's alright, was getting bored anyway, now time to play a game (the only thing that Linux doesn't have YET)Sep 20 07:19
cubezzzyeah Linux sucks and it's full of bugs :)Sep 20 07:19
Willgood debate and pointing out legit flaws is good, but I kept getting the sense that he was being deliberately obtuse just to try to find a chink somewhere.Sep 20 07:20
cubezzzhe just wanted to argueSep 20 07:20
cubezzzI could say white and he would immediately say blackSep 20 07:20
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Willtroll protip:  If you are going to nitpick, at least pick the right nits.Sep 20 07:21
ziggyfish_anyway I think I learnt something todaySep 20 07:21
Willdon't pull up an Adobe bug and say it is a kernel bugSep 20 07:21
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ziggyfish_what a SCADA system isSep 20 07:21
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mib_3425or dont say anything where that someone might not agree with.  or you'll be censored.Sep 20 07:22
*ziggyfish has quit ("Leaving.")Sep 20 07:22
Willmib_3425: I think there's a difference between having a differing opinion and just trying to stir up <redacted>Sep 20 07:23
mib_3425yes, there is, it depends on what side has the power, who wins, not really what freedom is IMHO.Sep 20 07:24
mib_3425and a site called "boycottnovell" is not about stiring up trouble I assume :)Sep 20 07:25
Willmid_3425: well, in any case, kicking him wasn't my call.  Besides, if that wasn't trolling, then what would you call it?Sep 20 07:26
mib_3425an alternative opinion, AND something that the power "man" did not agree with,Sep 20 07:26
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ziggyfishbackSep 20 07:27
Willziggyfish:  mib_3425 thinks that cubezzz was unfair to zlgSep 20 07:28
mib_3425no, I just think he's very biased, and uses his power to get his way. as opposed to entering into a discussion about it.Sep 20 07:28
mib_3425I just dont have a very high opinion of people who do that.Sep 20 07:29
ziggyfishWill, how can he, he wasn't on when zlg was onSep 20 07:29
wallclimberI think it's quite possible that mib_3425, zlg, and the old mutex are all the same person...Sep 20 07:30
Willthat is of course a possibilitySep 20 07:31
Willmib_3425:  what it looked like to me was that the discussion had devolved down to zlg going through the Ubuntu bug list trying to make a case that the Linux kernel had tons of bugsSep 20 07:32
Willof course, he started by trying to count all the extra applications in there tooSep 20 07:32
mib_3425so is this mutex someone who you did not agree with too, (sorry I just find that type of witch hunt morally corrupt).Sep 20 07:32
cubezzzI don't even know mutex :)Sep 20 07:32
*ziggyfish can here some diggingSep 20 07:32
wallclimberask roy about himSep 20 07:33
mib_3425I picked bug no.2, hardly going down the list, considering bug no.1 !!Sep 20 07:33
ziggyfishWill, seeSep 20 07:33
Willziggyfish: beat me to itSep 20 07:33
mib_3425my bad for picking the second bug, and it being a kernel bug. sorry.Sep 20 07:33
mib_3425next time ill be more biased for you if you like.Sep 20 07:33
cubezzzjust be civilSep 20 07:33
*_Hicham_ doesn't agree with kicking zlgSep 20 07:33
ziggyfishanyway, as I said before I'm over aguing with the trollSep 20 07:34
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Willok zlg: here's the thing.  Lets say there are a few bugs in the Linux kernel.  It's possible, I guess.  So what does that prove?Sep 20 07:34
_Hicham_cubezzz : we are in a free speech channelSep 20 07:34
_Hicham_kicking people is bad for the channelSep 20 07:35
Willcome to think of it, I probably should have said something about that.Sep 20 07:35
mib_3425will, tell the truth I forget :)Sep 20 07:36
Willcubezzz: let zlg back in as his name.Sep 20 07:36
*mib_3425 is now known as zilogSep 20 07:37
Willzlg:  I did tell the truth.  Watching you grasp for straws was getting old, but kicking you wasn't my decisionSep 20 07:37
zilogwhat straws ? I went to the Ubuntu bug tracker and picked the second bug on the critical list and stated it.Sep 20 07:38
_Hicham_zilog : that doesn't prove anythingSep 20 07:38
zilogI think the person who tried to say it was a hardware fault, and kicked me was grasping,Sep 20 07:38
_Hicham_not necessarily a hardware faultSep 20 07:39
Willbesides zilog, if you were kicked and I assumed you had left, then what could I do about it after the fact anyway?Sep 20 07:39
zilogif you remember the talk was about being "confirmed" I said they were, and as they are "confirmed" and "kernel" I can say they are "confirmed Kernel" bugs. Sorry it's NOT me, it's the Ubuntu web site, fight it out with them.Sep 20 07:40
Willzilog, actually you went to that adobe bug first.Sep 20 07:40
zilogYes, you mean the SIGSEGV bug with ?Sep 20 07:40
Willanyway, I gotta go for now.  Have fun all.Sep 20 07:40
Willyes, that oneSep 20 07:40
Willgotta runSep 20 07:40
Willthe one where adobe is crashing and passing a signal to the OSSep 20 07:41
zilogif that was the case it would be called a Adobe bug, not a Ubuntu bug, it means that on UBUNTU, but not other linux's this bug occures.Sep 20 07:42
Willit is a bug in the ubuntu package of adobe.  Maybe someone else here can explain it to you.Sep 20 07:43
Willbut even so, it isn't a kernel bugSep 20 07:43
zilogIt is still a kernel bug, news flash software apps crash all the time, bu the kernel is supposed to be able to deal with it, in this case it cannot properly deal with it, therefore its a bug in the kernal in it's inability to do what OS's do and catch such bugs.Sep 20 07:44
zilogComp Sci 101Sep 20 07:44
Willok, let's say it has been a long day.  As I think I said earlier OS development isn't my background.  If I'm wrong, what exactly is the point you are getting at?Sep 20 07:48
zilogwell, if i had not of been mindlessly kicked I could have scrolled back and told you. But i expect it was something to do with accepting that Linux and the kernel are * NOT * perfect, if you thihnk it is perfect, and everthing is someone elses fault, how do you expect to confront and fix issues when and if they do occur.Sep 20 07:50
WillUmm... when did I state that Linux was perfect?Sep 20 07:51
zilogyou did not, but the reaction I received when I indicated that the kernel may not be "PERFECT" seemed quite telling.Sep 20 07:51
_Hicham_kernel is not perfectSep 20 07:52
_Hicham_no OS is perfectSep 20 07:52
Willeh.  Can't speak for others.  I don't claim that it is perfect.  I do think it is a high quality system and possibly the best all the other not perfect choices out there, IMO.Sep 20 07:53
zilogdo why would me simply stating one aspect of this imperfection bring such a reaction against me ?Sep 20 07:54
zilogdo *soSep 20 07:54
WillAnd if I was mistaken the whole time about those bugs, it wasn't because I was blindly trying to preserve Linux's perfection, just that I didn't understand the situation well enough.  I like people pointing flaws in Linux with _constructive_ criticism.  I just don't like baseless FUD.Sep 20 07:55
zilogwhich I provided a link for you or anyone to confirm what I am saying, as *NOT* FUD.Sep 20 07:56
Willso if I was wrong about all that, then I apologize.Sep 20 07:56
Willzilog:  Yes, and from the looks of things, I didn't get it.  I probably misunderstood.Sep 20 07:57
zilogno need to apologise well to me anything, I dont deserve it :)Sep 20 07:57
Willzilog: about what you said earlier: there are so-called zealots for every OS.Sep 20 08:00
zilogthere are also moderates, and agnostics, which is where I put myself.Sep 20 08:01
Willbut if Linux people in particular are a bit touchy, it's not like they haven't been given cause to be.  Quite often.Sep 20 08:01
Willand there are also people that don't like seeing corruption and greed trump concern for people and society as a whole.Sep 20 08:02
zilogyes, but both sides are certainly guilty of that one, im sure a Novell employee might be a "bit touchy" about this place too.Sep 20 08:02
zilogWill, best you dont look at the US Sub-prime market too closely then :)Sep 20 08:04
WillI said don't like seeing it.  Of course it happens.  This world isn't perfect either.Sep 20 08:05
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schestowitzmutx, stop nymshiftingSep 20 08:05
_Hicham_schestowitz : are u sure he is mutex ?Sep 20 08:05
Willwell, gotta go.  can't stay here all day.Sep 20 08:05
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schestowitz_hyesSep 20 08:12
schestowitzHe used this nym beforeSep 20 08:12
cubezzzwhat is the deal with mutex?Sep 20 08:12
zilogyes, was wondering that myself !Sep 20 08:13
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-BNc/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] #Microsoft Found Guilty of Breaking #Korean Law for Second Time This Year 20 09:11
schestowitz 20 09:12
schestowitz"As previously documented, Goldman Sachs itself has a virtual lock on the top Treasury positions no matter which party is in power. The vaunted bipartisan "Baucus plan" was literally written by a Baucus aide who just left her position as Vice President of Wellpoint to write the health care reform plan for the Senate -- a revelation which barely caused a ripple."Sep 20 09:12
schestowitz"So with this massive pillaging of America's economic security and the control of American government by its richest and most powerful factions growing by the day, to whom is America's intense economic anxiety being directed?"Sep 20 09:13
schestowitz 20 09:13
schestowitz"Yet with recent scrutiny of latent Goldman interests in virtually every segment of the executive branch, Zero Hedge does find it oddly convenient, that in those dark (for Goldman Sachs) days, the two key people making capital markets related decisions were yet another two Goldman Sachs alumni: Hank Paulson and Eric Mindich."Sep 20 09:13
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bogdanHelloSep 20 09:17
bogdanIs anyone up this early?Sep 20 09:17
*_goblin ( has joined #boycottnovellSep 20 09:18
bogdanDid anyone else stumble over the problem of banishing the DNS name?Sep 20 09:21
schestowitzHeySep 20 09:30
schestowitzAny report on it? I didn't hear about it.Sep 20 09:30
bogdanHey, is that you Roy?Sep 20 09:31
bogdanI'm trying to redirect to to ban any Windows Updates on my boxSep 20 09:32
bogdanbut the system always seems able to resolve the domain to an actual Microsoft IP addressSep 20 09:32
cubezzz 20 09:33
ThistleWebbogdan: why not just disable automatic windows updates?Sep 20 09:33
ThistleWebgiven how MS abuse the updates system, it's a wise move anywaySep 20 09:33
bogdanI did, just that I'm a bit paranoidSep 20 09:34
ThistleWebthen you can pick and choose which updates to acceptSep 20 09:34
schestowitzThistleWeb: it would not workSep 20 09:34
ThistleWebif you're paranoid, windows is not the OS you should be running, they always own itSep 20 09:35
schestowitzMicrosoft ignores these settingsSep 20 09:35
bogdanI could make this redirect on my router, but now that I discovered this I gained interest in understanding it .Sep 20 09:35
cubezzzI was just about to say... :)Sep 20 09:35
schestowitzIt was shown before. Microsoft ignores those tickboxes and overrides themSep 20 09:35
schestowitzbogdan: why not run Wine?Sep 20 09:35
ThistleWebif it's not exploits due to bad coding, they'll have backdoorsSep 20 09:35
bogdanOh, I'm using Linux bigtime, this is just a temporary setup for my dad (1-2 days)Sep 20 09:36
ThistleWebfor a couple of days, a manual update should be fineSep 20 09:36
bogdanNow that I found this bypassing I was hoping I could help discover a Microsft nasty trick.Sep 20 09:37
ThistleWebMS don't update that oftenSep 20 09:37
bogdanSuch as a backdoor or smth.Sep 20 09:38
ThistleWebreally the best you can do, is set the updates to either download but let you choose, or dont download, just informSep 20 09:38
ThistleWebthat way whenthe balloon pops up you can select manual (I think) and look through what it's giving you, in the usual MS knowledgebase codeSep 20 09:38
ThistleWebanything you dont like, like the WGA or OGA, untick it, then tell it to always ignore the stuff you chose to ignoreSep 20 09:39
ThistleWebpatch tuesday is every month? or every 2 weeks? I cant rememberSep 20 09:40
bogdanYeah, but that doesn't kill M$Sep 20 09:40
schestowitzThistleWeb: first TuesdaySep 20 09:40
schestowitzI never had that experienceSep 20 09:40
ThistleWebbogdan: only switching away from windows will do thatSep 20 09:40
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] How the #GatesFoundation Privatises #Africa (HT @Scientes )Sep 20 09:40
schestowitzI never used a Windows with a real update mechanismSep 20 09:40
schestowitzWindows was initially not made to be patched over the networkSep 20 09:41
ThistleWeball you can do with windows is minimize the control they have over your pcSep 20 09:41
schestowitzThis is why WinNuke*.exe was made to work for so, so longSep 20 09:41
ThistleWebso that's once per monthSep 20 09:41
bogdanThistleWeb: Correction: only by giving others reasons to switch they will loose their unfair competition practices.Sep 20 09:41
ThistleWebwhich means after you update it, it'll be a decent chunk of time before another is dueSep 20 09:41
ThistleWebreasons like "having control over your PC" for exampleSep 20 09:42
bogdanBut yeah, I'll move from windows back to my safe Ubuntu realm (with no mono...)Sep 20 09:42
ThistleWebI'm saying, all you can do is lock down your dad's windows to a point, not totallySep 20 09:43
ThistleWebyou could go to insane lengths to really lock it down, but even then you dont know the way MS ignore stuffSep 20 09:44
ThistleWebif it's only for a few days, it'll be fineSep 20 09:44
ThistleWebmake sure the firewall is enabled on dialout, and you have an up-to-date antivirus and anti-spyware, turn off automatic updatesSep 20 09:45
ThistleWebthe rest is OTT for a few daysSep 20 09:45
bogdanYeah, actually I'm working on much better way to eat up their market share - by embedding more freedom in the worldSep 20 09:45
schestowitzbogdan: 20 09:47
bogdanOh well, if Gov uses it - I forgot about that article - there is no chance of making M$ to stop using it.Sep 20 09:49
bogdanThanks Roy for reminding me that.Sep 20 09:49
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cubezzzhmmm that's interestingSep 20 09:50
cubezzzthe one I heard about was The NSASep 20 09:51
cubezzzaccess system is built into every version of the Windows operating system now in use,Sep 20 09:51
cubezzzexcept early releases of Windows 95 (and its predecessors).Sep 20 09:51
cubezzzbut that's old newsSep 20 09:51
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bogdanRAnd0Mchar@schestowitz: Roy, I was always wondering - how is it to keep up this website?Sep 20 09:53
_goblinMorning all...Sep 20 09:54
bogdanRAnd0McharDon't you ever get tired of watching over M$ shenanigans?Sep 20 09:54
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[popey] I have been told there will be lots of bug fixes to gwibber landing in the morning in karmic. Fingers crossed :)Sep 20 09:54
_goblinwho me?Sep 20 09:55
_goblinobviously not then....Sep 20 09:57
cubezzzMIcrosoft Word was original released on XenixSep 20 09:58
cubezzzMicrosoft filed an emergency motion in which they asked for a stay of the injunction ruling. The motion was granted on September 4, 2009Sep 20 09:59
bogdanRAnd0McharYeah all software developers are equal, except the ones that aren't.Sep 20 10:01
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_goblinbye then...Sep 20 10:03
cubezzzhmmm, what's with the morphing nick I wonderSep 20 10:04
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_goblintime waster IMHOSep 20 10:08
_goblinIve been meaning to say to Roy that I don't think the IRC logs should be get the COLA trolls reading and quoting out of context and they can hide behind the fact that they don't even need to enter the room.Sep 20 10:09
_goblinIf they want to "monitor" let them come here and do so in real time...why should it be easy for them to misquote and lie?Sep 20 10:10
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_goblinoh, before I forget....Hi Moshe Goldfarb   (that COLA wintroll will be reading this log when Roy publishes it)Sep 20 10:11
Diablo-D3that cant be a real nameSep 20 10:17
schestowitzIt's notSep 20 10:22
schestowitzThe real name is Gary StewartSep 20 10:22
schestowitzSerial slanderer, admitted thief, racist, etc.Sep 20 10:22
Diablo-D3gary stewart doesnt even sound like a real nameSep 20 10:24
Diablo-D3someone with a name like that sounds like a gay guy with black ancestry hiding out as a white supremacistSep 20 10:24
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] #Secretary #RobertGates Honours #BillGates, #Microsoft May Manage #Stimulus Funds 20 10:31
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-BNc/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] #Microsoft Admitted #UNIX is Better Than #Windows Even 9 Years Ago, Finally Kills Windows Server 2000 20 11:22
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] #Microsoft Dumping in #SXSW , #Barnardos , and #Samsung 20 11:23
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-BNc/#boycottnovell-[popey] Lazy Sunday. Making roast dinner for lunch.Sep 20 11:37
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-BNc/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] #Zune and #WindowsMobile Fail at Rebirth 20 11:51
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-BNc/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] More #Antitrust Pressure for #Yahoo #Microsoft, #Google Blocked by #USDOJ 20 12:30
trmanco 20 13:18
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] #Novell , #Microsoft , and the “Microsoft Hater” #Daemonisation Label 20 13:20
trmancogmane is b0rkedSep 20 13:33
trmanco 20 13:37
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] Very Large US #Bank Finds Out That #Sharepoint Fails, But Still Fails to Understand Freedom 20 14:10
fewa 20 14:38
fewa"Too Good to be True?"Sep 20 14:38
fewaThats an attack on free and open source softwareSep 20 14:38
fewaWhen copies are free, except due to the monopolies given by congressSep 20 14:39
fewaor copyright law in other countriesSep 20 14:39
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] How #Microsoft / #ISO Took More Control of #ODF 20 14:40
trmanco 20 14:41
Diablo-D3 20 14:43
fewatrmanco, the jumping speeds are not rightSep 20 14:50
fewaand distanceSep 20 14:50
trmancoit's still a little rough around the edges but it worksSep 20 14:51
trmancothe concept is thereSep 20 14:51
fewawhat a waste of programmer time :PSep 20 14:55
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fewayou die when you reach the endSep 20 14:55
fewathe browser can do alot these daysSep 20 14:56
fewalook at the source 20 14:57
trmancoyeahSep 20 14:59
trmancoI already had a look :-PSep 20 14:59
fewapittty firefox and chromium cant play midi filesSep 20 14:59
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oiaohmThe html5 tags could allow it.  But playing midi files people would want sound fonts as wellSep 20 15:09
fewahmm bee playing this for a whileSep 20 15:12
fewaseems the laping function was not implamentedSep 20 15:12
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[scientes] Hold bank accountable, audit #bailout fight back against business interests and create US ombudsman on banks 20 15:17
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[davidgerard] Steve Ballmer: employee morale at Microsoft is job #1 20 15:18
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[scientes] Hold banks accountable, audit #bailout fight back against business interests and create United States ombudsman on #banks 20 15:18
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[scientes] @davidgerard developers developers developers developers developers developers developers developers developers 20 15:22
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-BNc/#boycottnovell-[davidgerard] Publishers were never in the "content" business, but the "paper" business. That's why they're fucked. 20 15:37
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-BNc/#boycottnovell-[scientes] RT @davidgerard:c Publishers were never in the "content" business, but the "paper" business. That's why they're screwed. ...Sep 20 15:47
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[davidgerard] there is nothing about katie price that isn't made of 100% class 20 15:51
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[scientes] RT @davidgerard: Publishers don't create value. "Content is information you don't need."Sep 20 15:55
DaemonFC 20 16:01
DaemonFC3 terrorists bagged in ColoradoSep 20 16:01
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] #Microsoft Compares Its Monopoly to the Older #Telephone #Monopoly 20 16:02
DaemonFCschestowitz, AT&T was worse if you can believe itSep 20 16:03
DaemonFCthey not only had a monopoly on computer software, but almost all telecommunications as wellSep 20 16:03
fewaDaemonFC, where is the crime?Sep 20 16:03
fewaand where is the evidence?Sep 20 16:03
amarsh04"we don't have to care, we're the phone company"Sep 20 16:04
DaemonFCfewa, so far they have conspiracy charges, lying to a federal officer, and the plans for the bombs on the guys laptopSep 20 16:04
fewaalmost the entire article is besides the pointSep 20 16:04
DaemonFCso that alone could get them sent away for quite some timeSep 20 16:04
DaemonFCyou're probably talking 20-25 years just on what the government has so farSep 20 16:04
fewaDaemonFC, who as the person hurt, and what information is it based upon?Sep 20 16:04
DaemonFCfewa, They stopped them before they could kill innocent peopleSep 20 16:05
DaemonFCthat's what they're paid to doSep 20 16:05
fewaDaemonFC, once again, I challenge you to find the evidence supporting these chargesSep 20 16:05
DaemonFCfewa, Well, with any luck, they'll be getting nightly aqss rapings from Bubba for the next 25 years or moreSep 20 16:05
fewathe NY Times does not post federal court numbers so there is no way to verify what they are sayingSep 20 16:05
DaemonFC*assSep 20 16:06
fewaand the entire article is full of heresaySep 20 16:06
DaemonFCwell, we probably won't know most of what the government has on them til it's actually in courtSep 20 16:06
DaemonFCbut I'm glad they stopped themSep 20 16:06
fewaDaemonFC, stopped who?Sep 20 16:07
DaemonFCthe muslimsSep 20 16:07
DaemonFCthey can't be trustedSep 20 16:07
fewaagain you miss the fact that you can't hold somebody without having a reasonSep 20 16:07
DaemonFCmust keep an eye on them at all timesSep 20 16:07
DaemonFCfewa, They have charges or they wouldn't have arrested themSep 20 16:08
DaemonFCwe'll find out what the bastards were up to in the fullness of timeSep 20 16:08
fewaDaemonFC, but you said the charges where "lying to a federal officer"Sep 20 16:09
fewathat seems like he was just defending himselfSep 20 16:09
fewanot telling them what they wanted to hearSep 20 16:09
DaemonFCI doubt the feds would have moved in unless they already had a solid case or unless the terrorists were close to carrying out their plans and they couldn't wait any longer to nab themSep 20 16:09
DaemonFCeither way, they're better off behind barsSep 20 16:09
fewaDaemonFC, has you spend the last few years on a remote island?Sep 20 16:10
DaemonFCfewa, Obstruction of JusticeSep 20 16:10
DaemonFCMaking false statements to a police officerSep 20 16:10
DaemonFCConspiracy to commit murderSep 20 16:10
fewaDaemonFC, havn't you heard of the hundreds of people who have been flown to Guantanamo to be tortured?Sep 20 16:10
DaemonFCI don't believe itSep 20 16:10
DaemonFCbesides, I do know that the Muslims behead peopleSep 20 16:11
twitterM$ also compared itself to Coke, which is a better analogy.Sep 20 16:11
DaemonFCI haven't heard of us beheading any Muslims, fewaSep 20 16:11
fewaDaemonFC, its done all the timeSep 20 16:11
DaemonFCwhen I do, I'll say we're the uncivilized savagesSep 20 16:11
DaemonFCso far, all the most cowardly/heinous things have been done by the MuslimsSep 20 16:12
fewaDaemonFC,Sep 20 16:13
fewa<DaemonFC> Conspiracy to commit murderSep 20 16:13
fewa* 20 16:13
DaemonFCpouring some water on someone and beheading them are two different thingsSep 20 16:13
DaemonFCwe haven't beheaded the savages and mailed them the tapeSep 20 16:13
fewaDaemonFC, he was left in a storage crate in the freezing during night, 120 heat during day, no food, no waterSep 20 16:13
fewaleft there to dieSep 20 16:14
DaemonFCbullshitSep 20 16:14
DaemonFCMuslim propagandaSep 20 16:14
fewaDaemonFC, there is a letter from Rumsfeld himselfSep 20 16:14
fewato "take the gloves off"Sep 20 16:14
DaemonFCDemocracy Now is a well known group of sympathizers, appeasers, and outright liarsSep 20 16:15
fewaDaemonFC, if you don't not have evidence, there is a no reason people will listen to youSep 20 16:15
DaemonFCanyone who hates this country and is willing to lie about it gets an article on that siteSep 20 16:15
fewaDaemonFC, you are a bigot, a hater of all people differn'tSep 20 16:15
fewa<DaemonFC> the muslimsSep 20 16:15
fewa<DaemonFC> they can't be trustedSep 20 16:15
DaemonFCfewa, Well, when they're convicted of their crimesSep 20 16:15
DaemonFCyou'll seeSep 20 16:15
fewaIts just hateSep 20 16:15
DaemonFCit's also a crime to have the blueprints for the bomb that the Muslim terrorists were planningto set offSep 20 16:16
fewa<DaemonFC> the muslimsSep 20 16:16
fewa<DaemonFC> they can't be trustedSep 20 16:16
DaemonFCThat may bring the sentence to 30 years or moreSep 20 16:16
DaemonFCfewa, I'll never trust themSep 20 16:16
twitterLOL, another "white picket fence" story for "pawns" and one night stands -> "We must make it clear that what we do is for the benefit of the majority of ISVs and businesses, and thus for the country, and that it is in their interest to help us succeed. We must set this as our goal."Sep 20 16:17
DaemonFCfewa, They're a bunch of sneaks and cowardsSep 20 16:17
DaemonFCwhat's to love?Sep 20 16:17
twitterThe "minority" of ISVs must be those they decide to crush.Sep 20 16:18
DaemonFCyou want to die for Allah, get over here and I'll be happy to introduce you to himSep 20 16:18
twitterpredictions of bloat -> " a large software industry build on wide standards."Sep 20 16:19
DaemonFCinstead they go and murder women and children with bombs and shitSep 20 16:19
DaemonFCfucking cowardsSep 20 16:19
DaemonFCthat's what they areSep 20 16:19
twitterfat bottom software makes the rocking world go down.Sep 20 16:19
DaemonFCfewa, 20 16:21
DaemonFCthere you goSep 20 16:21
DaemonFCthe detainee abuse fraud is put forth because it's the only defense they haveSep 20 16:23
DaemonFCthey lie and say they were abused to try and take the focus off the fact that they are bad people who are there for a damned good reasonSep 20 16:23
DaemonFCand frankly, the only thing that shocks me about their interrogation is that anyone made a record of it to add an air of legitimacy to the so-called "abuse" claimsSep 20 16:25
DaemonFCerrr, how about "that anyone was stupid enough to make a record of it and give an air of legitimacy to those claims"Sep 20 16:26
DaemonFCI don't care what they did, but they never should have written down that they did anything other than walk in there and ask them questions apparentlySep 20 16:26
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DaemonFCif I was one of the interrogators, I would have dismissed the guard and all witnesses, and would not have written down anything I did beyond ask questions or whatever was appoved in the "field interrogation handbook"Sep 20 16:28
_goblinhello allSep 20 16:28
*schestowitz gives channel operator status to fewaSep 20 16:29
schestowitzHey, _goblinSep 20 16:29
_goblinhows thjngs?Sep 20 16:29
_goblin*thingsSep 20 16:29
schestowitzDoing one last post, then  leavingSep 20 16:29
schestowitzI wrote a lot todaySep 20 16:29
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_goblinI see Ballmers payrise didn't represent the current climate.....Sep 20 16:29
schestowitzOver 10 posts, some longSep 20 16:30
DaemonFCfudged records avoid red tape more often than notSep 20 16:30
schestowitz_goblin: yes, I was just writing about Ballmer's wageSep 20 16:30
_goblinand they say crime doesnt paySep 20 16:30
schestowitz:-)Sep 20 16:30
DaemonFC_goblin, This is one of those things that nobody cares about really anywaySep 20 16:30
schestowitzThe most criminal employees get paid the mostSep 20 16:30
DaemonFCjust don't do it in the open or leave a paper trail and you'll be fineSep 20 16:30
DaemonFCleave it to the government to mess that upSep 20 16:31
schestowitzMEre peons and temps get thrown out to vut expensesSep 20 16:31
schestowitz*cutSep 20 16:31
DaemonFCI'd tell them that if they talked about anything that went on in there, that "There won't be a hearing, there won't be any paperwork, you'll have a heart attack in your cell one night and nobody will ever know any different"Sep 20 16:32
twitterit's easier to give yourself a bonus when you have just fired 5,000 employees and 5,000 perma-temps.Sep 20 16:33
DaemonFCfewa, That's why you know this is bogusSep 20 16:34
DaemonFCif the government was really willing to torture them, they'd be willing to clean up their mess before it was on CNNSep 20 16:34
twitterat an average of $100,000 cost of each per year, Sweaty B just freed up a billion dollars for himself.Sep 20 16:35
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[_goblin] Have I missed something or are people suggesting a penguin picture in #Microsoft #Windows is a reason to buy 7? LOL. Thats desperate!Sep 20 16:35
DaemonFCif these were really show trials, I'd also suspect that their government appointed lawyer would never bring up the issue of so-called "torture"Sep 20 16:36
twitterhe he, goblin.  They want you to buy Windows 7 for the toilet bowl baby background.Sep 20 16:36
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[_goblin] talking of which, if by chance there are any Linux users who do want it..You can find it on the net anyway.Just google! #Microsoft #WindowsSep 20 16:36
DaemonFCtypically if a government was using propaganda to bury claims of wrong doing, you'd hear nothing but "They are being treated well, and humanely, unlike their thousands of victims"Sep 20 16:37
DaemonFCand nothing moreSep 20 16:37
twittersee here 20 16:38
DaemonFC"shot while trying to escape" is another good oneSep 20 16:38
twitter 20 16:38
_goblinLOL...Its a conversation between a few of the faithful, they are talking like a picture of a penguin is something special....maybe Ive missed something....Sep 20 16:38
twitterother fun is 20 16:38
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twitter 20 16:39
twitter 20 16:39
DaemonFC"hung himself in his cell"Sep 20 16:39
DaemonFCtsk tskSep 20 16:40
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twitter 20 16:40
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twitterthere's been lots of trolling here lately.  Must be the impending launch/failure of Windows 7Sep 20 16:41
DaemonFCaccording to Wikipedia, Windows 7 is already a runaway hitSep 20 16:42
DaemonFCyou should check your facts, Wikipedia is _always_ rightSep 20 16:42
DaemonFCand _never_ biasedSep 20 16:42
DaemonFC:PSep 20 16:42
twitterDid I mention that my EEE PC box came with a "Linux" sticker put over the "Windows XP" print?Sep 20 16:43
DaemonFCthat's funnySep 20 16:43
DaemonFCit's like getting hand me downsSep 20 16:43
twitterThat's a rather clear indicator that Asus was unable to sell the 701 as a Windows machine and had to reload them to get them out the door.Sep 20 16:43
DaemonFCtwitter, or that most of them come with WindowsSep 20 16:44
DaemonFCso that's what they etched into the caseSep 20 16:44
twitternot that stuffed shelves were not a good enough sign of that.Sep 20 16:44
twitterbbl, there's lots of stuff to do today.Sep 20 16:45
DaemonFCI doubt enough people care what it comes with as long as it behaves the same way as their other PCsSep 20 16:45
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] #Microsoft Profit is Down Sharply, But #Ballmer Profit is Up 20 16:45
schestowitzGotta go nowSep 20 16:46
schestowitzI'll write about new Vista 7 briberies laterSep 20 16:46
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_goblinsee ya later roy.Sep 20 16:51
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[_goblin] RT @schestowitz #Microsoft Profit is Down Sharply, But #Ballmer Profit is Up #WindowsSep 20 16:53
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twitterspecial mention.  you are all just as safe as the good professor! 20 17:07
twitterexperts know what they are doing, move alongSep 20 17:08
DaemonFC 20 17:21
DaemonFChehSep 20 17:21
DaemonFCschestowitz, I'm trying to figure out this PPA of mineSep 20 17:38
DaemonFCI had thought about providing AoTuv Vorbis encoders in Ubuntu packagesSep 20 17:39
DaemonFCsince I don't see anyone else doing soSep 20 17:39
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DaemonFC`oh damn themSep 20 18:33
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_Hicham_Hi All!Sep 20 18:54
DaemonFCmy fan club is back, yaySep 20 18:56
_Hicham_DaemonFC : how many pills do u take per day ?Sep 20 18:57
DaemonFCincluding you?Sep 20 18:57
_Hicham_you seem to be in a miserable stateSep 20 18:58
_Hicham_go see a shrinkSep 20 18:58
_Hicham_or are shrinks too expensive to afford there ?Sep 20 18:58
_Hicham_I know u don't have a health insuranceSep 20 18:59
DaemonFC_Hicham_, You don't need health insurance to see a psychiatristSep 20 18:59
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_Hicham_more than 40% in the US don't have health insuranceSep 20 19:00
DaemonFCso?Sep 20 19:01
DaemonFCmost of the world starves or dies of AIDSSep 20 19:01
DaemonFCthat's another way to look at itSep 20 19:01
_Hicham_so the US is not that great at the social levelSep 20 19:03
DaemonFCthere's a lot of people that hate America and just try to throw every accusation they can at usSep 20 19:03
DaemonFCand see what sticksSep 20 19:03
_Hicham_everything sticks at AmericaSep 20 19:03
DaemonFCof course most of it really doesn'tSep 20 19:03
DaemonFCbut they're bound determined to find any excuseSep 20 19:03
_Hicham_it doesSep 20 19:04
DaemonFCthey use us as an excuse for their own failingsSep 20 19:04
DaemonFCit's sad reallySep 20 19:04
_Hicham_America is full of bad peopleSep 20 19:04
DaemonFCmost of the world is full of far worseSep 20 19:04
_Hicham_worse people live in the USSep 20 19:04
_Hicham_instead of asylumsSep 20 19:04
DaemonFCabout 1,000 miles to the south of me is a corrupt third world country where all the police are bought, the water has parasites, and organized crime rivals the militarySep 20 19:05
DaemonFCso I'm glad that I don't live thereSep 20 19:05
DaemonFCactually, most of Central America is like thatSep 20 19:05
DaemonFCthen pretty much all of the African continent is worseSep 20 19:06
DaemonFCI don't know why they even bother to draw the names of African nations on a mapSep 20 19:06
_Hicham_and u r saying that the US is clean, no corruption, no bribes, just straight people ?Sep 20 19:06
DaemonFCthe government gets overthrown every 6 months in most of themSep 20 19:06
_Hicham_like in the USSep 20 19:07
DaemonFCI'm saying that the vast majority of the world has it far worseSep 20 19:07
DaemonFCand it's their own faultSep 20 19:07
_Hicham_when they don't like a president, boomSep 20 19:07
_Hicham_and he is deadSep 20 19:07
DaemonFCand the next one is jsut as badSep 20 19:07
DaemonFCand just as genocidalSep 20 19:07
DaemonFCyour point?Sep 20 19:07
_Hicham_my point is : stop praising AmericaSep 20 19:08
DaemonFCtake a look around sometimeSep 20 19:08
_Hicham_it is not any betterSep 20 19:08
DaemonFCI'd much rather be here than in most placesSep 20 19:08
_Hicham_Scandinavia is probably the cleanest place in the worldSep 20 19:08
DaemonFC_Hicham_, Right, I'll just go ask my local warlord for some foodSep 20 19:09
DaemonFCI hope he's not too busy shooting his political enemies without trialSep 20 19:09
DaemonFC:)Sep 20 19:09
_Hicham_so, go to Scandinavia if u want a clean placeSep 20 19:09
_Hicham_people get killed without any reason in the USSep 20 19:10
DaemonFCnot by the governmentSep 20 19:10
DaemonFCthey all get fair trialsSep 20 19:10
DaemonFCusually too lenient on themSep 20 19:10
_Hicham_fair trials ?Sep 20 19:10
_Hicham_come onSep 20 19:10
DaemonFCyeahSep 20 19:11
_Hicham_there is no fair trial in the USSep 20 19:11
_Hicham_everyone can be bribedSep 20 19:11
DaemonFCif you're charged with a crime, there is a civilian jurySep 20 19:11
_Hicham_money = powerSep 20 19:11
DaemonFCyou get a lawyer even if you can't afford oneSep 20 19:11
DaemonFCthe burden is on the state to prove itSep 20 19:11
DaemonFCyou're presumed innocentSep 20 19:11
_Hicham_u can get a lawyer in most places of the world without payingSep 20 19:11
DaemonFCChina has show trialsSep 20 19:12
DaemonFCIran has show trialsSep 20 19:12
DaemonFCMexico has show trialsSep 20 19:12
DaemonFCwe don'tSep 20 19:12
_Hicham_u really good for a PR personSep 20 19:12
DaemonFCin fact, it's so hard to get the death penalty in the United States that you practically have to kill 20 people in broad daylight in front of witnesses and skull fuck themSep 20 19:13
_Hicham_the next Dick CheneySep 20 19:13
DaemonFCand even then, probably notSep 20 19:13
DaemonFClike I said, far too lenientSep 20 19:13
_Hicham_in the US, we have the most weird and violent ways in death penaltySep 20 19:13
_Hicham_gaz chamberSep 20 19:14
_Hicham_electric chairSep 20 19:14
DaemonFCand even if you somehow manage to, you'll probably still die of old age because you have so many appealsSep 20 19:14
DaemonFCso we really don't have a death sentence, unfortunatelySep 20 19:14
DaemonFCthere is no state that uses the electric chairSep 20 19:14
_Hicham_go to Texas and do sthg bad babeSep 20 19:14
_Hicham_and u will seeSep 20 19:14
DaemonFCit's pretty much all lethal injectionSep 20 19:14
DaemonFCUtah gives you a choice of that or firing squad cause of all the MormonsSep 20 19:15
_Hicham_they will invent a death penalty way for uSep 20 19:15
_Hicham_and what do u prefer ?Sep 20 19:15
_Hicham_lethal injection ?Sep 20 19:15
DaemonFCtoo lenientSep 20 19:15
DaemonFCI prefer that they get to experience as much pain as they caused their victimsSep 20 19:16
DaemonFCbut we're too mercifulSep 20 19:16
_Hicham_the US too merciful ?Sep 20 19:16
_Hicham_hahahahahahhaaSep 20 19:16
DaemonFCI'd say give the family of the victim a baseball bat and leave the roomSep 20 19:16
_Hicham_that is the bestSep 20 19:16
_Hicham_and what have the Guantanamu people done ?Sep 20 19:17
DaemonFCheh, dump them in the seaSep 20 19:17
DaemonFCfuck em, honestlySep 20 19:17
DaemonFCI don't careSep 20 19:17
_Hicham_typical american behaviorSep 20 19:18
DaemonFCcan't find a country that will take themSep 20 19:18
DaemonFCbut all of them tell us to let them goSep 20 19:18
DaemonFCgeeSep 20 19:18
DaemonFCdump them off in AntarcticaSep 20 19:18
*schestowitz listens to 20 19:19
_Hicham_DaemonFC : 20 19:19
DaemonFCYou'd think that one country in the world would be merciful enough to take them since they "haven't done anything bad/wrong"Sep 20 19:19
DaemonFCwouldn't you?Sep 20 19:19
DaemonFCNorway or Sweden maybe?Sep 20 19:20
DaemonFCno?Sep 20 19:20
_Hicham_why should they take them ?Sep 20 19:21
DaemonFClike most people, they pop their head out long enough to criticize but they know that they're full of shit when they say those people haven't done anything wrong and should be releasedSep 20 19:21
_Hicham_time to break fastSep 20 19:21
_Hicham_see ya laterSep 20 19:21
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DaemonFCit's a tough sell even for politicians in Sweden I'm sure, to take in terroristsSep 20 19:22
DaemonFCand repatriate themSep 20 19:22
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_goblinHi _Hitcham_Sep 20 19:25
_goblinoh dear he's gone..Sep 20 19:25
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schestowitzAnti-Obama AstroTurfing: 20 19:29
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twitterI'm starting to conclude that people in Seattle prefer charcoal to coffee.Sep 20 19:30
*twitter misses New Orleans coffeeSep 20 19:31
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schestowitz 20 19:43
schestowitzClarkeSep 20 19:43
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[popey] Dear HP. 70MB for a printer driver for XP!? Seriously? 507MB for the "Full Feature" one.I want to print something,not download the Internet.Sep 20 19:49
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schestowitz,8696.htmlSep 20 20:09
trmancodigg is b0rked againSep 20 20:16
trmancothey want more visits but sometimes they just can't handle themSep 20 20:16
trmanco:|Sep 20 20:16
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[popey] Loving Mitchell & Webb Sound "..double plus un-not annoying.."Sep 20 20:17
trmancointel is promoting windows 7 on diggSep 20 20:19
DaemonFCschestowitz, this is news?Sep 20 20:22
DaemonFCit's already out of mainstream support, it's been known for a while that SP3 was the lastSep 20 20:23
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[davidgerard] NotN: Plastic surgeons warn against not giving them money 20 20:32
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[popey] Dear HP, Also, my OS locale tells you that I'm in the UK. A4 is common here so should be default, not Letter. Stupid doofus driver writers.Sep 20 20:32
*_Hicham_ (n=hicham@ has joined #boycottnovellSep 20 20:34
_Hicham_hola senior schestowitzSep 20 20:35
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[davidgerard] A Pirate Party rally in Germany #wikipediaSep 20 20:44
schestowitzI'm getting fed up with Hess........Sep 20 20:58
schestowitzOpting for Open Source < >Sep 20 20:58
schestowitztrmanco: how does Intel 'support' them (in Digg)?Sep 20 20:59
schestowitz_Hicham_: hey, Sergeant HichamSep 20 20:59
*Omar87 ( has joined #boycottnovellSep 20 20:59
trmancothey had a sponsored diggSep 20 20:59
trmancoI have a screenshotSep 20 20:59
schestowitzOh, *that* rubbishSep 20 20:59
schestowitzTo hell with DiggSep 20 20:59
schestowitzAnd to hell with the criminal companies they do trade with.Sep 20 20:59
_Hicham_Omar87 : مرحبا بالأخ عمرSep 20 21:01
_Hicham_عيد مبارك سعيدSep 20 21:02
trmanco:|Sep 20 21:03
DaemonFC 20 21:03
Omar87_Hicham_: حيا الله أخ هشامSep 20 21:05
DaemonFCheh, my Yahoo account is 11 years old todaySep 20 21:06
DaemonFCw00t!Sep 20 21:06
Omar87_Hicham_: بارك الله لنا و لكم و للمسلمين جميعا هذا الشهر الفضيلSep 20 21:06
*lis` has quit ("baibai<3")Sep 20 21:07
DaemonFCاطال الله راوغ رأسك والقرف أسفل الحنجرةSep 20 21:08
DaemonFChehSep 20 21:08
Omar87DaemonFC: Do you even know what that means?Sep 20 21:08
DaemonFCit's close enough I'm sureSep 20 21:09
Omar87DaemonFC: Close to what?Sep 20 21:09
_Hicham_DaemonFC : hahahahahahahahaSep 20 21:09
DaemonFCahem, enough for what I intended to say to be an easy guess I'm assuming?Sep 20 21:09
_Hicham_noSep 20 21:09
_Hicham_this doesn't mean anythingSep 20 21:10
DaemonFChmmmSep 20 21:10
DaemonFCprobably better that waySep 20 21:10
_Hicham_just a set of wordsSep 20 21:10
_Hicham_no meaning at allSep 20 21:10
Omar87DaemonFC: Exactly like what _Hicham_ said.Sep 20 21:11
Omar87DaemonFC: No meaning at all.Sep 20 21:11
DaemonFCСразу ебать себяSep 20 21:12
DaemonFCB-)Sep 20 21:12
_Hicham_DaemonFC is a typical americanSep 20 21:12
_goblinno meaning is exactly why I have him on ignore now...Sep 20 21:12
_Hicham_who pretend to know everythingSep 20 21:12
DaemonFC_Hicham_, thank youSep 20 21:12
_Hicham_hi _goblinSep 20 21:12
Omar87DaemonFC: By the way, Google Translate is a very lousy tool. :)Sep 20 21:12
DaemonFCyou're not so bad yourselfSep 20 21:13
_goblinhiSep 20 21:13
DaemonFCyeah, I knowSep 20 21:13
_Hicham_Omar87 : did u use use Google Translate right after the last Intifada?Sep 20 21:13
Omar87_Hicham_: What?Sep 20 21:14
MinceRⵀⵄⵞⵔⵘⵋⴽⴸⴺⴴⴹⵂⴱⵍⵆⵝⵀⵆⴷⵈⵞⵍⵃⵒⵏⵘⵖⵓⵏⴿSep 20 21:14
Omar87_Hicham_: Why?Sep 20 21:14
_Hicham_Omar87 : I translated : "Shit on Israel" from french to hebrew and then the other waySep 20 21:14
DaemonFClong live IsraelSep 20 21:14
_Hicham_Omar87 : and guess what I had as an answer ?Sep 20 21:14
Omar87_Hicham_: And?Sep 20 21:14
Omar87_Hicham_: What?Sep 20 21:14
_Hicham_Omar87 : the final re-translation to arabic was : "I have nothing to say about Israel"Sep 20 21:15
DaemonFCheheSep 20 21:15
Omar87_Hicham_: LOL. :)Sep 20 21:15
_Hicham_Omar87 : the intent of Google Translate was to block people from insulting Israel in hebrewSep 20 21:15
DaemonFC_Hicham_, Well, if you don't have anything nice to say...shut your fucking cake holeSep 20 21:15
DaemonFChow's that?Sep 20 21:16
_Hicham_DaemonFC : do u know what we do to daemons ?Sep 20 21:16
Omar87DaemonFC: Well, if you don't have anything nice to say, do us all a favor and unplug your computer, now. :)Sep 20 21:16
Omar87DaemonFC: How does that sound?Sep 20 21:17
DaemonFCI'm unmovedSep 20 21:17
DaemonFC:)Sep 20 21:17
DaemonFC_Hicham_, Love them and pet them and squeeze them?Sep 20 21:17
DaemonFC:)Sep 20 21:17
_Hicham_DaemonFC : no, we actually throw stones on themSep 20 21:18
DaemonFC_Hicham_, Doesn't surprise meSep 20 21:18
DaemonFCthat's the Muslim answer for most everythingSep 20 21:18
_Hicham_the answer to american terroristsSep 20 21:18
Omar87DaemonFC: Wow, man. You really are such typical american. :)Sep 20 21:19
DaemonFC_Hicham_, Would be nice if you came out of 1000 BC and joined the rest of the worldSep 20 21:19
DaemonFCjust a suggestionSep 20 21:19
Omar87DaemonFC: Let me ask you. What's your favorite news channel? :DSep 20 21:19
DaemonFCI usually watch NBCSep 20 21:19
_Hicham_DaemonFC : would be nice if u get out and see the real world, instead of staying in front of tv and internetSep 20 21:20
Omar87DaemonFC: WOW! So that's why I feel so sorry for you.. hmm.Sep 20 21:20
DaemonFC_Hicham_, I really don't care for the rest of the worldSep 20 21:20
DaemonFCwell, at least 86% of the people around here anywaySep 20 21:20
schestowitzKnuth: England is home of literate programming <,1000000121,39663084,00.htm >Sep 20 21:20
Omar87DaemonFC: Then shut that gaping hole of your mouth and stop talking about it.Sep 20 21:21
DaemonFCreligious people are the craziest SOBs there ever have beenSep 20 21:21
DaemonFCor ever will beSep 20 21:21
DaemonFC*has beenSep 20 21:21
Omar87DaemonFC: You're so pathetic, man.Sep 20 21:21
DaemonFCsome more than others ;) but they're all rotten to the coreSep 20 21:21
_Hicham_DaemonFC admit that he doesn't care about anyoneSep 20 21:21
_Hicham_selfish american attitudeSep 20 21:21
_Hicham_typicalSep 20 21:21
Omar87_Hicham_: Exactly.Sep 20 21:22
Omar87_Hicham_: I don't blame them, though.Sep 20 21:22
DaemonFC_Hicham_, No, there's still a good chance that religion will blow up the entire worldSep 20 21:22
DaemonFCreasonable people with itSep 20 21:22
DaemonFCso just go get on with itSep 20 21:22
_Hicham_poor DaemonFCSep 20 21:22
DaemonFCstart World War 3Sep 20 21:22
_Hicham_media has eaten ur mindSep 20 21:22
_Hicham_beside hollywoood moviesSep 20 21:23
DaemonFC_Hicham_, I have a dislike of pretty much all religionsSep 20 21:23
DaemonFCsome just disgust me more than othersSep 20 21:23
DaemonFCnothing personalSep 20 21:23
Omar87_Hicham_: Not after watching a documentary that exposed exactly the the American civilization is being deliberately indoctrinated in the and ever aspect of their life.Sep 20 21:23
*schestowitz has kicked DaemonFC from #boycottnovell (User terminated!)Sep 20 21:23
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_Hicham_schestowitz : just let himSep 20 21:23
*schestowitz has kicked DaemonFC from #boycottnovell (User terminated!)Sep 20 21:23
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*schestowitz sets ban on DaemonFC!*@*Sep 20 21:24
schestowitz_Hicham_: he adds little of valueSep 20 21:24
schestowitzHe creates controversySep 20 21:24
Omar87DaemonFC: Exactly. The you are exactly what the US Government wants you to be.Sep 20 21:24
Omar87DaemonFC: Exactly. You are exactly what the US Government wants you to be.Sep 20 21:24
schestowitz,39024759,60693939p,00.htmSep 20 21:25
schestowitzOmar87: he's been trained well.Sep 20 21:25
Omar87schestowitz: He's been hypnotized well. Just like all Americans. (No offense)Sep 20 21:26
schestowitzThat's not the issueSep 20 21:27
Omar87schestowitz: Oh yes it is, Roy.Sep 20 21:27
_Hicham_I watch ABC, CBC, FOX and CNN from time to timeSep 20 21:27
_Hicham_I can't believe the way they handle newsSep 20 21:28
schestowitzHe gets vindictiveSep 20 21:28
Omar87schestowitz: Please don't feel offended. But the issue is bigger than you think. It's even bigger than we all think.Sep 20 21:28
Omar87schestowitz: Have you heard about the NWO?Sep 20 21:28
schestowitzEach nation has its own POVSep 20 21:28
schestowitzBut the US has a lot of power over mindsSep 20 21:28
Omar87schestowitz: It's imprinted on your Dollars.Sep 20 21:28
schestowitzFair enough for some, but they have other channelsSep 20 21:29
schestowitzLike democracy nowSep 20 21:29
schestowitzBut it's not mass mediaSep 20 21:29
schestowitzAnd the US treats Al Jazeera like it's Al Qaeda (conveniently for them it sounds similar)Sep 20 21:29
_Hicham_vive AlJazeeraSep 20 21:30
*schestowitz removes ban on DaemonFC!*@*Sep 20 21:30
*Omar87 has quit ("Leaving.")Sep 20 21:31
DaemonFCschestowitz, btw, Al Jazeera is not availableSep 20 21:31
DaemonFCnot even via satelliteSep 20 21:32
schestowitzYou can watch it onlineSep 20 21:32
DaemonFClast time I tried to get on their website, it was too slow to even useSep 20 21:32
schestowitzYouTube evenSep 20 21:32
schestowitzSee other side of the storiesSep 20 21:32
DaemonFCthere's always another sideSep 20 21:33
DaemonFCbut never the truthSep 20 21:33
_Hicham_AlJazeera is available on satelliteSep 20 21:33
DaemonFC_Hicham_, Not when it's locked outSep 20 21:33
schestowitzOld: Microsoft moves to integrate Windows with BIOS <,1000000121,39116902,00.htm >Sep 20 21:34
DaemonFCthere's a couple minor satellite providers that only do business in certain regions that carry itSep 20 21:34
_Hicham_DaemonFC : it is available in Galaxy 19Sep 20 21:34
_Hicham_in Ku bandSep 20 21:34
_Hicham_see wikipediaSep 20 21:34
schestowitz_Hicham_: you'd get him arrested :-)Sep 20 21:34
DaemonFCI don't have an old style dishSep 20 21:35
schestowitz[for watching the 'forbidden' sites]Sep 20 21:35
schestowitzBTW, AUssie still has the filters comingSep 20 21:35
schestowitzGermany alsoSep 20 21:35
DaemonFCschestowitz, It's not forbiddenSep 20 21:35
_Hicham_DaemonFC : it is just dropped from comcastSep 20 21:35
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DaemonFCit's jsut really hard to getSep 20 21:35
DaemonFClack of interest I supposeSep 20 21:35
schestowitzWHose?Sep 20 21:35
schestowitzWHose interest?Sep 20 21:35
DaemonFCthey dropped a bunch of channels I watched because they weren't profitable in this marketSep 20 21:36
schestowitzOr the advertisersSep 20 21:36
Omar87I'm backSep 20 21:36
_Hicham_AlJazeera is not profitable ?Sep 20 21:36
schestowitzThey sell audiencesSep 20 21:36
_Hicham_wb Omar87Sep 20 21:36
Omar87_Hicham_: Thanks.Sep 20 21:36
_Hicham_DaemonFC : u don't have a dish ?Sep 20 21:36
Omar87schestowitz: Btw, speaking of Al-Qaeda.Sep 20 21:36
DaemonFCnot one that I can aim at any particular satelliteSep 20 21:37
DaemonFCnobody has used those in over 10 yearsSep 20 21:37
_Hicham_why ?Sep 20 21:37
DaemonFCold technologySep 20 21:37
_Hicham_hahahahahahaSep 20 21:37
DaemonFCthey mainly do the mini dishes nowSep 20 21:37
Omar87schestowitz: Although Taliban and Al-Qaeda actually do exist, they both are no more the metaphors for a much larger and more terrible agenda.Sep 20 21:37
_Hicham_and the new technology is cable ?Sep 20 21:37
DaemonFC_Hicham_, Cable always has been more popular than satelliteSep 20 21:38
DaemonFCone of the things that's keeping it that way is cable internetSep 20 21:38
schestowitzTutorial Tuesday: GNOME Hotkeys 20 21:38
_Hicham_weird USSep 20 21:38
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[popey] Yay, Celebrity Come Dine With Me on the Hummy! :)Sep 20 21:38
_Hicham_they do what they want to their peopleSep 20 21:38
Omar87schestowitzL: Anyone who dares to stand in its way will be recognized as another Al-Qaeda or Taliban.Sep 20 21:38
DaemonFCsatellite companies don't even really have internet services anymoreSep 20 21:39
DaemonFCthey give you like $10 /month off DSLSep 20 21:39
DaemonFCwoohooSep 20 21:39
Omar87schestowitz: Be it directly or indirectly.Sep 20 21:39
DaemonFCit ends up costing about half again as much (or more) to get satellite TV + DSLSep 20 21:39
schestowitzOmar87: they take the extremist to create fear of a large population, I know....Sep 20 21:39
schestowitzThat's like saying that if you're from Germany then you're with the neo-NazisSep 20 21:40
cubezzzI think Galaxy 19 might carry Al JazeeraSep 20 21:40
schestowitzOr people from Louisiana are dangerous cause they might be linked to the KKKSep 20 21:40
_Hicham_DaemonFC doesn't like dishesSep 20 21:40
Omar87schestowitz: True. However, unfortunately, that's not the whole picture.Sep 20 21:40
_Hicham_DaemonFC is part of the KKKSep 20 21:40
cubezzzFTA even: Al Jazeera EnglishSep 20 21:40
DaemonFCschestowitz, I just don't like the south because of a number of reasonsSep 20 21:40
DaemonFCit's OK to visit, but I wouldn't stay thereSep 20 21:40
schestowitzDaemonFC: what DO you like?Sep 20 21:41
_Hicham_DaemonFC has all symptoms of a confirmed terroristSep 20 21:41
cubezzzFTA Ku-band channels for Galaxy 19 (97º W)Sep 20 21:41
DaemonFC_Hicham_, How do you gather that?Sep 20 21:41
schestowitz_Hicham_: maybe NRAersSep 20 21:41
DaemonFCschestowitz, When 86% of the population is crazy or stupidSep 20 21:41
schestowitzOr militia members :;-pSep 20 21:41
_Hicham_DaemonFC : first of all, u have a weaponSep 20 21:41
DaemonFCthere's not much you can likeSep 20 21:41
_Hicham_DaemonFC : and second, u are mentally illSep 20 21:42
cubezzzright, you can't just make broad generalizationsSep 20 21:42
cubezzzdetails countSep 20 21:42
_Hicham_just this two symptoms makes u an ideal terroristSep 20 21:42
DaemonFCcubezzz, It's getting betterSep 20 21:42
DaemonFCjust 18 years ago, over 93% of the population was crazy/stupidSep 20 21:43
_Hicham_so, I may file a petition to the interpol to come and catch uSep 20 21:43
DaemonFCit's a majority across most of the world thoughSep 20 21:43
Omar87DaemonFC: From what aspect.Sep 20 21:43
DaemonFC_Hicham_, They don't have jurisdiction hereSep 20 21:43
DaemonFCso go ahead :)Sep 20 21:43
_Hicham_DaemonFC : you will get killed by ur own gangSep 20 21:44
DaemonFCOmar87, Oppressive religious types that are sworn to take away all of my human rights one by one til they can legally have another holocaustSep 20 21:44
DaemonFCthrow people like me into their fireSep 20 21:44
DaemonFCroast us with all the booksSep 20 21:44
cubezzzI think you can just stick up a FTA dish and get Al Jazeera for free btwSep 20 21:44
schestowitzHP thinks we're all dumb(Ed down: 20 21:44
Omar87DaemonFC: Look, again. I don't blame you. You are a victim.Sep 20 21:45
cubezzzGalaxy 19 covers Canada, USA and MexicoSep 20 21:45
_Hicham_DaemonFC : u look like a chicken, that is why u would be good to roastSep 20 21:45
Omar87DaemonFC: However, one thing I do blame you for is not looking for the truth.Sep 20 21:45
_Hicham_and add some spices to youSep 20 21:45
DaemonFC_Hicham_, That's one reason why I have the lifetime carry permitSep 20 21:45
DaemonFCI don't go anywhere without at least one firearm holstered to meSep 20 21:45
cubezzzpoor chickens, everyone eats them :)Sep 20 21:46
schestowitz_Hicham_: let's not go there with humourSep 20 21:46
Omar87DaemonFC: You, as well as the entire American population are all victims of a mass hypnosis.Sep 20 21:46
schestowitzI'm not in the mood for food nowSep 20 21:46
_Hicham_schestowitz : why ? are u sick ?Sep 20 21:46
schestowitzcubezzz: breeds them tooSep 20 21:46
_Hicham_did u eat sthg bad ?Sep 20 21:47
DaemonFCOmar87, it's an effective deterrentSep 20 21:47
schestowitzOmar87: not just themSep 20 21:47
DaemonFCI have had to shoot at people beforeSep 20 21:47
schestowitzMost countries areSep 20 21:47
Omar87DaemonFC: The words you keep repeating are nothing new. I've personally heard them so many time from so many people that I'm starting to believe Americans are no longer humans.Sep 20 21:47
schestowitzWith Net censorship it might get worseSep 20 21:47
DaemonFCI'd never be caught without itSep 20 21:47
schestowitz_Hicham_: no, it's 10pm hreSep 20 21:47
Omar87DaemonFC: They are biological recording machines.Sep 20 21:48
Omar87schestowitz: That's right.Sep 20 21:48
cubezzzspeaking of TV shows, I saw a Linux show on TV one time, comparing BSD and LinuxSep 20 21:48
_Hicham_we have a criminal in hereSep 20 21:48
DaemonFCOmar87, And that's the first step towards a holocaustSep 20 21:48
DaemonFCconvincing yourself that they aren't really people anywaySep 20 21:48
Omar87DaemonFC: Tell that to yourself.Sep 20 21:48
_Hicham_DaemonFC : go talk about the holocaust in publicSep 20 21:48
_Hicham_and see what they will do to uSep 20 21:48
schestowitzWe're all organisms :-)Sep 20 21:48
DaemonFCwell, I'd expect you to deny itSep 20 21:48
_Hicham_if u really have ballsSep 20 21:49
DaemonFCfor obvious reasonsSep 20 21:49
DaemonFCso I'm really not going to debate thisSep 20 21:49
_Hicham_DaemonFC : go tell it to one of ur channelsSep 20 21:49
schestowitz_Hicham_: let's cool it downSep 20 21:49
_Hicham_schestowitz : as u wantSep 20 21:49
Omar87DaemonFC: Look at how Disney and Hollywood carved that filthy image about Arabs and Muslims deep in your mind.Sep 20 21:49
schestowitzAladdinSep 20 21:49
schestowitzThere are good documentaries about itSep 20 21:49
schestowitzLet me find some....Sep 20 21:50
DaemonFCOmar87, I just would like to be left alone, and if you and the other invisible sky god believers want to blow each other to hell, have at itSep 20 21:50
_Hicham_DaemonFC : and u , what do u blow ?Sep 20 21:50
Omar87DaemonFC: Muslims, for your information, are took the biggest piece of the pie of Hollywood's ricism.Sep 20 21:50
DaemonFChow is that?Sep 20 21:51
cubezzzwhat about Cowboy shows? "Indians" being the bad guys all the timeSep 20 21:51
schestowitzRacism in Disney < >Sep 20 21:51
Omar87DaemonFC: Exactly! You are such a success story for the the NWO agenda! :DSep 20 21:51
DaemonFCthe NWO?Sep 20 21:51
DaemonFChehSep 20 21:51
Omar87DaemonFC: The New World Order.Sep 20 21:51
DaemonFCas in the wrestling group?Sep 20 21:51
cubezzzthank you Christopher Columbus for botching that up for centuriesSep 20 21:51
DaemonFCor as in the crackpot conspiracy theory?Sep 20 21:52
Omar87DaemonFC: It's imprinted on the back of your dollars.Sep 20 21:52
DaemonFCNovus Ordo SeclorumSep 20 21:52
Omar87DaemonFC: Oh my God. I'm feeling sorry for you. :)Sep 20 21:52
schestowitzDisney and how they portray racism through sound 20 21:52
schestowitzIs Disney racist? < >Sep 20 21:52
Omar87DaemonFC: So, you really do know about it. :)Sep 20 21:52
DaemonFCOmar87, You're mistranslating it anywaySep 20 21:53
_Hicham_DaemonFC will be caught sooner or laterSep 20 21:53
DaemonFCnew world order would be Novus Ordo MundiSep 20 21:53
cubezzzNovus Ordo Seclorum, with the eye and the pyramid? :)Sep 20 21:53
Omar87DaemonFC: That's not true.Sep 20 21:53
Omar87cubezzz: Exactly.Sep 20 21:53
DaemonFCNovus Ordo Seclorum means "New order for the ages" not "New world order"Sep 20 21:53
DaemonFC*of the ages that isSep 20 21:54
Omar87DaemonFC: The same.Sep 20 21:54
cubezzz"New America Era" or something like thatSep 20 21:54
DaemonFCcubezzz, noSep 20 21:54
Omar87cubezzz: No.Sep 20 21:54
DaemonFCthat's not anywhere on itSep 20 21:54
DaemonFCOmar87, 20 21:54
cubezzz" Masonic representation of The Great Architect of the Universe"Sep 20 21:55
MinceR 20 21:55
MinceRthere you go, even the logo is thereSep 20 21:55
cubezzzok, so that's what the eye is, I was never clear on thatSep 20 21:56
Omar87DaemonFC: I've read a lot about it already. The story is so huge that it would never fit inside you hypnotized brain.Sep 20 21:56
DaemonFCcubezzz, Omar87 doesn't understand the ceremonial representationsSep 20 21:56
Omar87your*Sep 20 21:56
DaemonFCso he's a conspiracy theoristSep 20 21:56
Omar87DaemonFC: Of course I do.Sep 20 21:56
cubezzzthe eye seemed Orwellian to me :)Sep 20 21:57
DaemonFCOmar87, The conspiracy theorists are delusional, and they've created a pretty convoluted story around their delusionsSep 20 21:57
DaemonFCthey've basically written a movie script and are selling it as "prophecy"Sep 20 21:57
cubezzzwe all believe man was on the moon right? :)Sep 20 21:57
schestowitzBelch. What is Jason doing...? 20 21:58
Omar87DaemonFC: Lol. :)Sep 20 21:58
DaemonFCOmar87, You can see "prophecy" in anything, including tea leaves and chicken entrailsSep 20 21:58
DaemonFCevery human culture has had some deep rooted superstitionsSep 20 21:59
Omar87DaemonFC: One thing those "Conspiracy Theorists" do know, is that they must not believe anything said to them.Sep 20 21:59
DaemonFCOmar87, I also know this oneSep 20 21:59
DaemonFCyou say that like it validates everything you're sayingSep 20 21:59
_Hicham_DaemonFC is a big scientistSep 20 21:59
Omar87DaemonFC: You can see "Nothing" in anything. Thats exactly what they want you to be.Sep 20 21:59
DaemonFCOmar87, You can't disagree with me or you're "one of them"Sep 20 22:00
DaemonFColdest line in the bookSep 20 22:00
DaemonFCOmar87, I'm not superstitiousSep 20 22:00
DaemonFCI'm not religiousSep 20 22:00
DaemonFCIf you want the definition of insanity, religious and superstitious people provide the best exampleSep 20 22:00
_Hicham_DaemonFC : u r not humanSep 20 22:01
DaemonFCinsanity as a legal defense means you can't tell right from wrongSep 20 22:01
DaemonFCReligion takes that from youSep 20 22:01
Omar87DaemonFC: I'm not a conspiracy theorist. I'm just a guy who wants to know the truth.Sep 20 22:01
_Hicham_DaemonFC : go see a shrinkSep 20 22:01
schestowitz 20 22:01
DaemonFCreligious people are indoctrinated into a society that takes away their ability to discern right from wrongSep 20 22:01
Omar87_Hicham_: Exactly.Sep 20 22:01
DaemonFCit massages it out of themSep 20 22:01
DaemonFCuntil they will do the evil bidding of their masters in the church, mosque, etc. without hesitation or questionSep 20 22:02
Omar87DaemonFC: Oh my God. You are an amazing success story of that agenda man.Sep 20 22:02
DaemonFCthey're not evil people, they're brainwashed by the religionSep 20 22:02
_Hicham_DaemonFC is a real toySep 20 22:02
DaemonFChow does religion attract people and strip them of their conscience?Sep 20 22:03
DaemonFCthreats and bribesSep 20 22:03
DaemonFCbribe them with heaven, virgins, etc.Sep 20 22:03
DaemonFCthreaten with an eternity of hellfire and damnationSep 20 22:03
Omar87Okay, people. Please don't be offended by anything I'm gonna say now. But, can any Atheist explain to me what exactly is Atheism all about?Sep 20 22:03
Omar87What is the Philosophical or Ideological meaning behind it?Sep 20 22:04
DaemonFCOmar87, Atheism is simply the non-belief in the supernaturalSep 20 22:04
DaemonFCthere's a lot of different kinds of atheistsSep 20 22:04
DaemonFCincluding, Secular HumanismSep 20 22:04
DaemonFCI think that's really what you want to knowSep 20 22:04
DaemonFC 20 22:05
schestowitz > [22:04] <Omar87> What is the Philosophical or Ideological meaning behind it?Sep 20 22:05
schestowitzYesSep 20 22:05
schestowitzThere's not muchSep 20 22:05
DaemonFCin a nutshell....There's no gods or devils, all good or evil is man madeSep 20 22:05
schestowitzThe rules are based, IMHO, on what nature gives usSep 20 22:05
Omar87I can sum up "Atheism" in this small picture: 20 22:05
cubezzzthat doesn't really explain people like Dahmer thoughSep 20 22:05
schestowitzCompassion, mutual favours based on expectations of reciprocity, etc.Sep 20 22:05
DaemonFCwe're solely responsible for what we do to othersSep 20 22:05
Omar87schestowitz: That's exactly what "Atheism is all about"Sep 20 22:06
schestowitzEven chimpanzees have that innate to improve their survival and status in the groupSep 20 22:06
schestowitzSo the ethical framework is like ubuntu (the African word)Sep 20 22:06
Omar87schestowitz: All by chance?Sep 20 22:06
DaemonFCOmar87, Religious types always attack non-religious types by stating that non-religious types can't definitively answer the questions of life and the universeSep 20 22:06
Omar87schestowitz: With no creator at all?Sep 20 22:06
DaemonFCReligion is a convenienceSep 20 22:07
cubezzzwell if I can interject here: Are knowledge level isn't too goodSep 20 22:07
cubezzzOurSep 20 22:07
DaemonFCit doesn't give you the luxury of figuring out what happened because they tell it to you in fairy talesSep 20 22:07
Omar87DaemonFC: Please to acting like a parrot, will ya?Sep 20 22:07
cubezzzwe haven't even got to Mars yet :)Sep 20 22:07
Omar87DaemonFC: I'm starting to believe you're a bot.Sep 20 22:07
schestowitzOmar87: we are simple creaturesSep 20 22:07
Omar87DaemonFC: You are a bot.Sep 20 22:07
schestowitzCompare the size of Earth to the universeSep 20 22:07
_Hicham_no, we aren't simple creaturesSep 20 22:08
Omar87schestowitz: Can you prove that?Sep 20 22:08
DaemonFCOmar87, It's like saying "Why bother figuring out physics, things fall because God says they fall"Sep 20 22:08
schestowitzThings like quasars and stuffSep 20 22:08
_Hicham_we are moreSep 20 22:08
schestowitzIt's all relativeSep 20 22:08
_Hicham_we have mindsSep 20 22:08
DaemonFCReligious types and that type of thinking bother me for that reasonSep 20 22:08
_Hicham_no other creature in the universe have mindSep 20 22:08
schestowitzIf our complexity is high, why not the rest?Sep 20 22:08
Omar87DaemonFC: I don't talk to bots.Sep 20 22:08
cubezzzwe don't even know how big the universe is, only the visible universeSep 20 22:08
schestowitzAnd who would create a creator.Sep 20 22:08
schestowitzThat would require a lot of skill and complexity tooSep 20 22:08
cubezzzI have a theory :)Sep 20 22:08
Omar87cubezzz: Exactly.Sep 20 22:08
_Hicham_go ahead cubezzzSep 20 22:09
DaemonFCschestowitz, And who created the creator's creator?Sep 20 22:09
schestowitzWe can save a step or two and study as 'divide and conquer' by regressing to simpler questionsSep 20 22:09
DaemonFCand shouldn't that guy be the boss?Sep 20 22:09
schestowitzLike studying biology of bacteriaSep 20 22:09
DaemonFC:PSep 20 22:09
schestowitzThen trees tooSep 20 22:09
Omar87schestowitz: Why would you ever need to know that?Sep 20 22:09
cubezzzthis universe we are in now, from our perspective is Universe XSep 20 22:09
schestowitzThe DNA sequences of trees are similar to oursSep 20 22:09
cubezzzbut there is also X-1, X-2, X-3 etcSep 20 22:09
DaemonFCOmar87, If you tell me you have all the answers, that's wonderfulSep 20 22:09
_Hicham_we think of creation, because we are createdSep 20 22:09
Omar87schestowitz: Does a piece of bread need to know who created the baker?Sep 20 22:09
DaemonFCI hope you have proof of every bit of itSep 20 22:09
schestowitzSo you can see we're biological 'cousins' derives from the same branchesSep 20 22:09
_Hicham_creation is not necessarySep 20 22:09
DaemonFCand I hope that you can repeatedly demonstrate everything you claimSep 20 22:10
cubezzzeach Universe is created from the previous one, each iteration is differentSep 20 22:10
_Hicham_creation is the limit of the human mindSep 20 22:10
schestowitzScience is fascinating when you learn how many molecules make youSep 20 22:10
cubezzzso there :)Sep 20 22:10
Omar87DaemonFC: I am no more that a student.Sep 20 22:10
schestowitzIt belittles all of our beliefs and technology and litartuireSep 20 22:10
DaemonFCOmar87, I, the atheist, am not the unreasonable oneSep 20 22:10
DaemonFCall I ask for is proof of what you saySep 20 22:10
_Hicham_schestowitz : our current knowledge is nothingSep 20 22:10
Omar87DaemonFC: No human being has all the answers.Sep 20 22:10
DaemonFCif you tell me that Allah made the universe out of tapioca pudding and can prove it definitivelySep 20 22:10
Omar87DaemonFC: Prove it.Sep 20 22:10
DaemonFCthen that's splendedSep 20 22:10
Omar87DaemonFC: I can not tell you how Allah created the universe.Sep 20 22:11
cubezzzI think Odin deserves a mention too :)Sep 20 22:11
cubezzzjust to be fairSep 20 22:11
DaemonFCOmar87,  Then how can you tell me he did?Sep 20 22:11
_Hicham_DaemonFC : u don't have the ability to answer thatSep 20 22:11
_Hicham_neither do anyoneSep 20 22:11
schestowitzI think of god/s as placeholders for stuff that's still too complex for usSep 20 22:11
_Hicham_it is far from our knowledgeSep 20 22:11
DaemonFCOmar87,  And you don't have any grounds to claim that's what happenedSep 20 22:11
schestowitzWhen man made fire it treated it with repsectSep 20 22:12
schestowitzAnd revered the sun, which was this blob of lightSep 20 22:12
Omar87DaemonFC: And I don't need to know that piece of information either. However, one logical thing that I know so well, is that chance cannot build a car.Sep 20 22:12
schestowitzWithout realising what it wasSep 20 22:12
schestowitzMany religions made a "God" out of the SunSep 20 22:12
_Hicham_it is not about making a godSep 20 22:12
DaemonFCOmar87, No it can'tSep 20 22:12
DaemonFChumans canSep 20 22:12
Omar87DaemonFC: So how can a chance create such a complicated universe?Sep 20 22:12
_Hicham_it is about thinking deeplySep 20 22:12
schestowitzWhich was just one among hundreds of billions of similar sunsSep 20 22:12
DaemonFCI see humans building carsSep 20 22:12
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schestowitzor starsSep 20 22:12
_Hicham_and accessing the limits of our knowledgeSep 20 22:12
cubezzznot illogical, since we really really need the sun :)Sep 20 22:12
DaemonFCso I'm satisfied that humans build carsSep 20 22:12
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schestowitzTHe Sun is no longer believed to be our creatorSep 20 22:13
_Hicham_DaemonFC is really dumbSep 20 22:13
DaemonFCOmar87, The universe as a whole is not purpose builtSep 20 22:13
schestowitzBut it's vital to our life as it was created with it as a preconditionSep 20 22:13
Omar87DaemonFC: Exactly! Cars do get built up on their own!Sep 20 22:13
DaemonFCthere was a very very small chance of humans ever existingSep 20 22:13
Omar87don't**Sep 20 22:13
_Hicham_the sun can't be our creator schestowitz, neither any object in the universeSep 20 22:13
_Hicham_we are creaturesSep 20 22:13
Omar87DaemonFC: That's ridiculous!Sep 20 22:13
DaemonFCOmar87, the universe as it is not is easier to get than a carSep 20 22:13
DaemonFCbecause we were not a desired result of a fine tuned processSep 20 22:14
Omar87DaemonFC: Actually, I meant ludicrous.Sep 20 22:14
DaemonFC*nowSep 20 22:14
schestowitzHumans build cars and space cruisers with the same elements and brains people had 20,000 years agoSep 20 22:14
schestowitzNot, THAT's amazingSep 20 22:14
_Hicham_hahahahahahahahahahaSep 20 22:14
_Hicham_hahahahahahahahahahahahaSep 20 22:14
_Hicham_hahahahahahahahahahahSep 20 22:14
schestowitzIt makes humans like GOds :-pSep 20 22:14
_Hicham_i ve never seen such a dumb personSep 20 22:14
_Hicham_DaemonFC hhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaSep 20 22:14
DaemonFC_Hicham_, The universe is not purpose builtSep 20 22:14
schestowitzIt isSep 20 22:15
_Hicham_u r really a chickenSep 20 22:15
DaemonFCwe're here by accident and because enough things happened by chanceSep 20 22:15
schestowitzFor its physical lawsSep 20 22:15
_Hicham_at least u have a chicken's mindSep 20 22:15
schestowitzWhich never changes since it startedSep 20 22:15
cubezzzI'm eating chicken right now! :)Sep 20 22:15
Omar87DaemonFC: Then how can you believe that such a very complex system got established in this fascinating way all out nothing??!Sep 20 22:15
schestowitzIt maybe could implode and restart with different physical lawsSep 20 22:15
DaemonFC_Hicham_, Is behaving like a chickenSep 20 22:15
schestowitzLike another speed of lightSep 20 22:15
_Hicham_haaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaahahahahhahahahaSep 20 22:15
DaemonFCOmar87, ChanceSep 20 22:15
schestowitzBut it's still a complex questionSep 20 22:15
_Hicham_DaemonFC : u really make me laughSep 20 22:16
Omar87DaemonFC: Are you even listening to yourself?!? :DSep 20 22:16
_Hicham_chance can't build the universeSep 20 22:16
schestowitz[22:15] <Omar87> DaemonFC: Then how can you believe that such a very complex system got established in this fascinating way all out nothing??!Sep 20 22:16
schestowitzIt wasn'tSep 20 22:16
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schestowitzIt evolvedSep 20 22:16
Omar87_Hicham_: Exactly!Sep 20 22:16
schestowitzThat's the thingSep 20 22:16
cubezzzwe need a FOSS universeSep 20 22:16
DaemonFCOmar87, We're probably not even unique, by "we're" I mean lifeSep 20 22:16
schestowitzA lot can happen in billions of yearsSep 20 22:16
schestowitzMore than we can perceiveSep 20 22:16
_Hicham_blind evolution can't establish  the universe as it isSep 20 22:16
Omar87schestowitz: Evolved out of nothing??Sep 20 22:16
DaemonFC_Hicham_, Of course it canSep 20 22:16
Omar87schestowitz: See this: 20 22:16
cubezzzthese are meta-physical questionsSep 20 22:16
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_Hicham_and the physical laws we have are just an approximation of some other more complex lawsSep 20 22:17
schestowitz_Hicham_: yes, but what fails diesSep 20 22:17
schestowitzLike exploding starsSep 20 22:17
DaemonFCWe don't know exactly how everything happened, so instead of figuring it out, let's create an invisible sky godSep 20 22:17
schestowitzOr black holes that swallow matterSep 20 22:17
Omar87schestowitz: It dies not because it failed.Sep 20 22:17
*tacone has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer))Sep 20 22:17
schestowitzMan was not 'established'Sep 20 22:17
DaemonFCwhen people ask us for proof of the sky god, we'll just say that he only ever talks to usSep 20 22:17
schestowitzIt's a side effectSep 20 22:17
cubezzzflying spagetti monster anyone? :)Sep 20 22:17
Omar87schestowitz: It dies because its lifespan has ended,Sep 20 22:17
_Hicham_exactlySep 20 22:18
_Hicham_nothing is meant to last for everSep 20 22:18
DaemonFCcubezzz, His noodly appendage touched Omar87Sep 20 22:18
schestowitzOmar87: 99% of the world's creatures are already extinctSep 20 22:18
schestowitzSo many types of them failedSep 20 22:18
schestowitzThose better at reproducing carry onSep 20 22:18
_Hicham_schestowitz : not failedSep 20 22:18
schestowitzIt's not as though it's special-purpose-madeSep 20 22:18
cubezzzthere's been what, 5 or 6 major extinction events?Sep 20 22:18
_Hicham_climate changeSep 20 22:18
DaemonFCschestowitz, Like the prehistoric spiders that were bigger than a dogSep 20 22:18
DaemonFCthose sound awesomeSep 20 22:19
_Hicham_climate change can kill us tooSep 20 22:19
Omar87schestowitz: How does that relate here?Sep 20 22:19
DaemonFC_Hicham_, Nope, Allah or maybe Jesus will save usSep 20 22:19
DaemonFCone of them anywaySep 20 22:19
DaemonFCI'm confident :PSep 20 22:19
_Hicham_DaemonFC : Jesus will come for sureSep 20 22:19
_Hicham_just trust meSep 20 22:19
_Hicham_:)Sep 20 22:20
Omar87DaemonFC: _Hicham_ is right.Sep 20 22:20
schestowitzOmar87: what specifically?Sep 20 22:20
schestowitz_Hicham_: he didSep 20 22:20
schestowitzOn toastSep 20 22:20
schestowitzSomeone found himSep 20 22:20
DaemonFCnopeSep 20 22:20
_Hicham_schestowitz : on toast ?Sep 20 22:20
Omar87schestowitz: The "extinction" part.Sep 20 22:20
schestowitzIn a piece of toastSep 20 22:20
schestowitzYes, his factSep 20 22:20
schestowitz*FaceSep 20 22:20
schestowitzYou didn't hear?Sep 20 22:20
DaemonFCthat was the Virgin Mary that appeared on toastSep 20 22:20
schestowitzLet me find it..Sep 20 22:20
DaemonFC:)Sep 20 22:20
Omar87schestowitz: How does that refute the existence of a God?Sep 20 22:21
schestowitzOh, yeah, but I think it was bothSep 20 22:21
schestowitzThere was also a Jesus toastSep 20 22:21
schestowitzLet me find itSep 20 22:21
Omar87DaemonFC: Be polite, or shut pleast.Sep 20 22:21
DaemonFC 20 22:21
Omar87please*Sep 20 22:21
schestowitzDaemonFC: 20 22:21
schestowitzHe's alllllllllliveSep 20 22:21
cubezzzok this might be of interest:Sep 20 22:21
cubezzz 20 22:21
schestowitzOmar87: how do they know what Mary looked like?Sep 20 22:22
DaemonFC 20 22:22
_Hicham_schestowitz : Jesus will come at the endSep 20 22:22
_Hicham_no doubt about thatSep 20 22:22
schestowitzSome of the stories about it emerges hundreds of years later and passed from mouth to earSep 20 22:22
DaemonFC 20 22:22
Omar87schestowitz: I do ask them this question too.Sep 20 22:22
schestowitzLike the stories about Mary sort of resurrected and going up to heavenSep 20 22:22
schestowitzThat came hundreds of years laterSep 20 22:23
schestowitzWarped story..Sep 20 22:23
Omar87schestowitz: 'coz I don't know the answer myself.Sep 20 22:23
cubezzzso much for BSD being Free in 1978Sep 20 22:23
Omar87schestowitz: That's Jesus you're talking about.Sep 20 22:23
_Hicham_DaemonFC : u gotta get more educationSep 20 22:23
Omar87DaemonFC: True.Sep 20 22:23
schestowitzOmar87: too bad...Sep 20 22:23
schestowitzSOme say he either didn't exist or was making claims people fell for. But that's another story......Sep 20 22:24
Omar87schestowitz: Do you even know how your 14 gradfather looked like?Sep 20 22:24
Omar87grandfather*Sep 20 22:24
schestowitzOmar87: can'tSep 20 22:24
schestowitzNo drawings or anything.Sep 20 22:24
_Hicham_schestowitz : how can Jesus know that another prophet will come ?Sep 20 22:24
schestowitzFamily tree goes like 7 levels upSep 20 22:24
Omar87schestowitz: But still you do believe that he existed? How so?Sep 20 22:24
_Hicham_and know his name exactly ?Sep 20 22:24
schestowitzTo 18th century-ishSep 20 22:24
_Hicham_answer me plzSep 20 22:25
schestowitz_Hicham_: which one of themSep 20 22:25
schestowitzThere would be like 2^15Sep 20 22:25
_Hicham_schestowitz : our prophetSep 20 22:25
_Hicham_it is stated in the bibleSep 20 22:25
schestowitzI.e. I have like 500,000 granfathers at that levelSep 20 22:25
Omar87schestowitz: If you know the answer to my latest question, then you should know why God exists.Sep 20 22:25
schestowitzOopsSep 20 22:26
schestowitzTHat would be 19 generationsSep 20 22:26
_Hicham_no answer, thanksSep 20 22:26
schestowitzBeing a prophet is a hard jobSep 20 22:26
_Hicham_I appreciate ur diplomacy schestowitzSep 20 22:26
Omar87schestowitz: Do you believe that you 14 grandfather existed even though you haven't actually seen him?Sep 20 22:26
schestowitzThe complexity of prodicting matter and time in the universe it hardSep 20 22:27
schestowitzEven for 10 secondsSep 20 22:27
schestowitzPRophecy takes a very large processor/brainSep 20 22:27
_Hicham_schestowitz : how can u explain prediction ?Sep 20 22:27
schestowitzEVen then, there's causalitySep 20 22:27
Omar87schestowitz: Please answer my question.Sep 20 22:27
schestowitzThat's where things get tricky with quantum mechanics and allSep 20 22:27
schestowitzOmar87: we can excavate themSep 20 22:28
schestowitzWe can also find the missing links in AfricaSep 20 22:28
schestowitzEast AfricaSep 20 22:28
schestowitzJust needs to be dug deep enoughSep 20 22:28
_Hicham_schestowitz : have we ever seen a photon ?Sep 20 22:28
schestowitzIf you go along those lines you'd also find those giant spiders and dinosaursSep 20 22:28
schestowitzIt's all there. Concrete and real.Sep 20 22:29
_Hicham_have we ever seen an electron?Sep 20 22:29
_Hicham_nothingSep 20 22:29
schestowitzWith organic material and everything needed to reconstructionSep 20 22:29
Omar87schestowitz: That's not necessary.Sep 20 22:29
schestowitz_Hicham_: I don't have the toolsSep 20 22:29
schestowitzNot even bacteria has those toolsSep 20 22:29
schestowitzBut we made someSep 20 22:29
_Hicham_schestowitz : the point is, we don't have to see to believeSep 20 22:29
Omar87schestowitz: The logical answer is much easier and much more powerful.Sep 20 22:29
schestowitzArtificial toolsSep 20 22:30
_Hicham_that is why we have mindsSep 20 22:30
schestowitzPeople used not to know about atomsSep 20 22:30
schestowitzUntil some people in Alexandria (IIRC) hypothesised about itSep 20 22:30
_Hicham_schestowitz : just a theorySep 20 22:30
Omar87schestowitz: The main and only pillar you Atheists revolve around is something called "Materialism".Sep 20 22:30
schestowitzLater it was proven better (after middle ages and burning of major libraries and discoveries)Sep 20 22:30
_Hicham_to explain the stucture of matterSep 20 22:30
schestowitzThe world being round tooSep 20 22:30
schestowitzIt wasn't post inquisitionSep 20 22:31
schestowitzThat the world was round was known in Egypt well before thatSep 20 22:31
schestowitzAfter Artostanis [spelling] did an experimentSep 20 22:31
Omar87_Hicham_: There is no need for this big hype.Sep 20 22:31
schestowitz_Hicham_: no, but we see itSep 20 22:32
schestowitzWe see the evidence of electronsSep 20 22:32
_Hicham_ah, the evidenceSep 20 22:32
schestowitzWe can also experiment with them to see how they behaveSep 20 22:32
_Hicham_not themSep 20 22:32
Omar87schestowitz: You haven't answered my question.Sep 20 22:32
schestowitzWe covered many 'placeholders'Sep 20 22:32
Omar87schestowitz: Do you believe that your 14th grandfather existed even though you haven't actually seen him?Sep 20 22:32
schestowitzOver time, things that used to be 'magic' are not taken for granted as factoidsSep 20 22:32
_Hicham_why not experiment with ur mind ?Sep 20 22:32
_Hicham_only ur mindSep 20 22:32
schestowitzMilky Way is no longer just real milk from the breast of a GoddessSep 20 22:32
_Hicham_that is the biggest gift we haveSep 20 22:33
schestowitz_Hicham_: my mind is smallSep 20 22:33
schestowitzWe need to combine manySep 20 22:33
Omar87schestowitz: Where did you get that silly fairytail from?Sep 20 22:33
schestowitzMulti-disciplinary workSep 20 22:33
_Hicham_thanks to god u admit itSep 20 22:33
schestowitzProject Manhattan employed like 100k peopleSep 20 22:33
schestowitzJust to build an atom bombSep 20 22:33
schestowitzOmar87: it's trueSep 20 22:33
_Hicham_schestowitz : why do atheists prentend to know everything since our mind is small ?Sep 20 22:34
schestowitzThat's why it's called thatSep 20 22:34
schestowitzmythologySep 20 22:34
Omar87schestowitz: What is?Sep 20 22:34
schestowitzInfluenza comes from the belief that it's caused by motion of starsSep 20 22:34
schestowitz_Hicham_: people summarised their findingsSep 20 22:34
Omar87schestowitz: Who brought that to your mind? Walt Disney?Sep 20 22:34
schestowitzSo we are told the fact and can descend to the proof of themSep 20 22:34
MinceR 20 22:34
schestowitzI am sometimes wanting to see the proof for claims that lay before us in documentariesSep 20 22:35
schestowitzIt's always thereSep 20 22:35
schestowitzAnd if you ask questions, then you see whySep 20 22:35
schestowitzAges of the universe has very good reasoning behind itSep 20 22:35
schestowitzFormation of Earth tooSep 20 22:35
Omar87schestowitz: You haven't answered me, yet.Sep 20 22:35
Omar87schestowitz: Do you believe that your 14th grandfather existed even though you haven't actually seen him?Sep 20 22:35
schestowitzAlso the fact that all galaxies move away from the same centre indicates they use to overlapSep 20 22:36
schestowitz*usedSep 20 22:36
_Hicham_trueSep 20 22:36
schestowitzOmar87: where would I come from otherwiseSep 20 22:36
_Hicham_that is stated in the QuranSep 20 22:36
schestowitzMy 13th grandfather wasn't created by "poof! Magic". Very unlikely.Sep 20 22:36
Omar87schestowitz: That's the answer I want you to start from.Sep 20 22:37
_Hicham_schestowitz : and how was the first man created ?Sep 20 22:37
schestowitzAnd I can see someone else's 150th grandfatherSep 20 22:37
Omar87schestowitz: If it wasn't for you 14 Grandfather, where would you have come from otherwise?Sep 20 22:37
schestowitzHis 15th grandfaher would probably be astounded to see people around him going "poof! Here I am!"Sep 20 22:37
schestowitz_Hicham_: there's no first manSep 20 22:38
schestowitzIt's mutuationSep 20 22:38
schestowitzVery, very slowSep 20 22:38
_Hicham_schestowitz : we mutated from apes ?Sep 20 22:38
schestowitz100 generations =~ 2000 yearsSep 20 22:38
schestowitz10,000 generations =~ 200000 yearsSep 20 22:38
Omar87schestowitz: And if it wasn't for your 15th Grandfather, where would have your 14 grandfather have come from otherwise? Until you come to realize that nothing pops out of thin air by chance.Sep 20 22:39
schestowitzAge of manSep 20 22:39
Omar87schestowitz: Everything happens for a reason.Sep 20 22:39
schestowitzAge of Earth is like 10,000 TIMES more than thatSep 20 22:39
schestowitzOmar87: oppositeSep 20 22:39
Omar87schestowitz: Prove your argument.Sep 20 22:40
schestowitzYou imply:Sep 20 22:40
schestowitzoutcome is reaches by actionSep 20 22:40
Omar87schestowitz: "There's no first man", prove it.Sep 20 22:40
Balrog_schestowitz: where in the Old Testament does it say that the earth was created *five thousand* years ago ?Sep 20 22:40
schestowitzRather then action leads to outcomeSep 20 22:40
schestowitzThere's no sense of reason/purpose for probabilitySep 20 22:41
schestowitzIt just happensSep 20 22:41
_Hicham_schestowitz : ur a Medical Biophysics PhD student, right ?Sep 20 22:41
Omar87schestowitz: Don't give me a biography about Darwin. Tell me logic.Sep 20 22:41
Balrog_(or a similar figure)Sep 20 22:41
schestowitzIt's disappointing to think that there's no reason for asteroid to avoid our fragile and beautiful worldSep 20 22:41
_Hicham_it did hit the earthSep 20 22:41
schestowitzMany asteroid didSep 20 22:41
schestowitzMany asteroids didSep 20 22:42
_Hicham_and so ?Sep 20 22:42
schestowitzMoon tooSep 20 22:42
_Hicham_the point ?Sep 20 22:42
schestowitzAlmost every planetSep 20 22:42
schestowitz~100 years ago a comet hit the EarthSep 20 22:42
_Hicham_do u believe in mutation ?Sep 20 22:42
schestowitzLed to big fired in SyberiaSep 20 22:42
schestowitz*firesSep 20 22:42
schestowitz_Hicham_: that's how DNA worksSep 20 22:42
schestowitzIt can't replicate immaculatelySep 20 22:42
schestowitzThat's a good thingSep 20 22:43
schestowitzIt permits improvement, not just degradationSep 20 22:43
Omar87schestowitz: See? That's your problem, you just pull yourself out of the main topic by switching to astrology and space in the nearest chance.Sep 20 22:43
_Hicham_schestowitz : even thought DNA mutate, it does produce the same speciesSep 20 22:43
_Hicham_right ?Sep 20 22:43
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[thistleweb] Slashdot Linux Story | Forkable Linux Radio Ad Now On the Air In Texas 20 22:43
schestowitzDefine speciesSep 20 22:43
_Hicham_schestowitz : species as set by biologySep 20 22:44
schestowitzRace, species, animal, plant/animal are all the same thingsSep 20 22:44
schestowitzThe taxonomy changes because of some level of granularitySep 20 22:44
schestowitzAnd ability to fertiliseSep 20 22:44
schestowitzYou can mix races, not so much with species or animal typesSep 20 22:45
_Hicham_we can't mix speciesSep 20 22:45
schestowitzSo it's accepted that depending on some similarity/proximity we can show what belongs whereSep 20 22:45
Omar87schestowitz: How does that refute the existence of a God?Sep 20 22:45
schestowitzThe last remaining type of 'humans' is homo spiens. We're almost all the sameSep 20 22:45
schestowitzOmar87: it doesn'tSep 20 22:45
_Hicham_huh, ur saying itSep 20 22:46
schestowitzIt refutes some other thingsSep 20 22:46
schestowitzLike age of EarthSep 20 22:46
_Hicham_we are all the sameSep 20 22:46
Omar87schestowitz: Then how does it relate here?Sep 20 22:46
_Hicham_age of earth ?Sep 20 22:46
schestowitzYesSep 20 22:46
schestowitzWe know roughly the chronologySep 20 22:46
_Hicham_age of earth is stated using Carbon14 propertiesSep 20 22:46
_Hicham_roughlySep 20 22:46
schestowitzWhich refutes biblical writingsSep 20 22:46
_Hicham_not exactlySep 20 22:46
Omar87schestowitz: Yes what?Sep 20 22:46
_Hicham_what do biblical writings say ?Sep 20 22:47
schestowitzSome say it's like 6,000 years oldSep 20 22:47
schestowitzThe judeo-christian anywaySep 20 22:47
_Hicham_no, it is more than thatSep 20 22:47
schestowitzDepends on interpretationsSep 20 22:47
schestowitzA lot of the bible is just a string of namesSep 20 22:47
_Hicham_6000 years is little timeSep 20 22:47
Omar87schestowitz: LOL! Dinosaurs are only 6000 years old? That's hilarious. :)Sep 20 22:48
schestowitzAssuming it means anything at all. It's just arbitrary sounds that are put together, not something replicable like DNA codeSep 20 22:48
schestowitzOmar87: some people say that "God put the skeletons there"Sep 20 22:48
schestowitz"To test our faith"Sep 20 22:48
_Hicham_DNA code is not arbitrarySep 20 22:48
_Hicham_just seems to beSep 20 22:48
schestowitzIt's very systematicSep 20 22:48
Omar87schestowitz: Where did you get that from?Sep 20 22:48
_Hicham_DNA code is very well doneSep 20 22:49
schestowitzOmar87: debatesSep 20 22:49
schestowitz_Hicham_: agreedSep 20 22:49
Omar87schestowitz: What is?Sep 20 22:49
schestowitzIt has been made longer and more complexSep 20 22:49
_Hicham_DNA mutation isn't 100% arbitrary eitherSep 20 22:49
schestowitzBut bacterium DNA is also super-complex for usSep 20 22:49
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schestowitz_Hicham_: when mixing egg and sperm you have more than just a random processSep 20 22:50
schestowitzYou have the merging of 'capable' DNA.Sep 20 22:50
_Hicham_schestowitz : it is not really that randomSep 20 22:50
schestowitzThose that manage to reproduce and those amonfg the sperm that swim betterSep 20 22:50
_Hicham_i'd rather say pseudo-randomSep 20 22:50
_Hicham_but not completelySep 20 22:50
schestowitzThat's just scientifically speaking.Sep 20 22:50
schestowitzNothing i s randonSep 20 22:51
schestowitz"God does not play dice"--AEinsteinSep 20 22:51
schestowitzHe used God as a metaphor BTWSep 20 22:51
_Hicham_exactlySep 20 22:51
schestowitzSOme people delibrately misrepesent what he saidSep 20 22:51
Omar87schestowitz: Then how do you believe the universe was created at random?Sep 20 22:51
schestowitzHe was an atehist tooSep 20 22:51
_Hicham_nothing is arbitrarySep 20 22:51
schestowitzNot even rand();Sep 20 22:51
Omar87schestowitz: Worng.Sep 20 22:51
schestowitzEverything is pseudo-randomSep 20 22:51
_Hicham_rand() is not random at allSep 20 22:52
schestowitzThere's a process to everythingSep 20 22:52
Omar87schestowitz: Albert wasn't atheist.Sep 20 22:52
schestowitzEverything is rhythic or prodictableSep 20 22:52
schestowitzEntropy is tied to somethingSep 20 22:52
_Hicham_everything is predictableSep 20 22:52
schestowitzOmar87: what was he then? Agnostic?Sep 20 22:52
_Hicham_provided we have enough dataSep 20 22:52
_Hicham_the problem is with having enough dataSep 20 22:52
Omar87schestowitz: Jewish.Sep 20 22:52
schestowitz_Hicham_: welll.....: -)Sep 20 22:53
schestowitzIn theortySep 20 22:53
schestowitzOmar87: it's a religionSep 20 22:53
_Hicham_schestowitz : yes, in theorySep 20 22:53
schestowitzHe was SemiteSep 20 22:53
schestowitz_Hicham_: yes, but...Sep 20 22:53
schestowitzIf you have infinity thern the entropy can be also infinitySep 20 22:53
_Hicham_schestowitz : u know very well that there is no infinitySep 20 22:53
_Hicham_infinity is just a mathematical conceptSep 20 22:54
schestowitzSo in theory you can have the non-deterministic process invoked by an infinitely complex causeSep 20 22:54
schestowitz_Hicham_: trueSep 20 22:54
Omar87schestowitz: Yes.Sep 20 22:54
schestowitzWe deal with small numbersSep 20 22:54
schestowitzWe have just 10 fingersSep 20 22:54
schestowitzSo we have a decimal systemSep 20 22:54
schestowitzAnd we can't cope with large #sSep 20 22:54
Omar87schestowitz: (Ethnicity Jewish)Sep 20 22:54
schestowitzLike googolSep 20 22:54
schestowitzOmar87: matter of interprettaion probablySep 20 22:55
schestowitzSemanticsSep 20 22:55
schestowitzLike saying that Hitler was ChristianSep 20 22:55
schestowitzHe rejected it while youngSep 20 22:55
schestowitzPeople are born without religionSep 20 22:55
schestowitzTheir parents have a religionSep 20 22:55
_Hicham_schestowitz : agreeSep 20 22:56
_Hicham_butSep 20 22:56
Omar87schestowitz: I disagree.Sep 20 22:56
schestowitzKids are unable to understand such conceptsSep 20 22:56
_Hicham_if not influenced, what would be the resultSep 20 22:56
_Hicham_that is the questionSep 20 22:56
schestowitzWhen they do, they can decide what to make of inputSep 20 22:57
Omar87_Hicham_: That's not true.Sep 20 22:57
schestowitzThere cannot be many correct religions, eitherSep 20 22:57
schestowitzThey are not mutually inconsistentSep 20 22:57
schestowitzScience is not a democracy, it's concensus based ona  truthSep 20 22:57
_Hicham_i am talking about letting them chooseSep 20 22:57
schestowitzIt's a symbiosis or fusion of one unified, cohesive explanationSep 20 22:57
Omar87schestowitz: People are born with religion. Some people just loose it due to some circumstances.Sep 20 22:58
schestowitzBut religion is a mental processSep 20 22:58
Omar87_Hicham_: Most people don't let their kids choose.Sep 20 22:58
schestowitzWIthout thinking you can't have a religionSep 20 22:58
schestowitzA newly-born baby has instictsSep 20 22:58
Omar87schestowitz: You can.Sep 20 22:58
schestowitzLike "find nipple, cry"Sep 20 22:58
schestowitzThen they listen to sounds and start seeingSep 20 22:59
schestowitzThey actually hear sounds like the moher's voice while in the ovariesSep 20 22:59
schestowitzI didn't mean ovarySep 20 22:59
schestowitz 20 23:00
schestowitzComplex biology....Sep 20 23:00
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schestowitzLaying eggs is probably a more complex systemSep 20 23:01
Omar87schestowitz: And how would that complex biology come out of nothing for no reason what so ever?Sep 20 23:01
schestowitzYou then incubate outside the bodySep 20 23:01
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schestowitzOmar87: why reason?Sep 20 23:01
Omar87schestowitz: Why not reason??Sep 20 23:01
schestowitzThings happen for a reason only in the sense that one thing leads to anotherSep 20 23:01
Omar87schestowitz: Not exactly.Sep 20 23:02
Omar87schestowitz: Actually, yes. Exactly.Sep 20 23:02
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Omar87schestowitz: No event can occur without a reason for it to occur.Sep 20 23:03
schestowitzIt's all a chainSep 20 23:03
schestowitzWhen time startedSep 20 23:04
schestowitzBut we're still poor at itSep 20 23:04
Omar87schestowitz: How would this complex system last for millions of decades if there wasn't a reason for it to stay that way?Sep 20 23:04
schestowitzDespite being the only animal capable of introspection at this level, the universe is hard for us to understandSep 20 23:04
schestowitzIt will last for a long time to comeSep 20 23:05
Omar87schestowitz: I agree on that. And that's my point.Sep 20 23:05
schestowitzSome theoreticians say the gravity from the expansion will lead to weird things, eventuallySep 20 23:05
Omar87schestowitz: You don't need to know how your God looks like for you to believe him.Sep 20 23:05
schestowitzBut there are many things we don't know yet, like the stuff found at the edges and black hole with the option of wormholesSep 20 23:06
Omar87schestowitzL You just need to understand that if God didn't create you, you wouldn't have existed.Sep 20 23:06
schestowitzAlso, the universe may be curved, so we can't see beyond the 3rd dimension, still. We can do maths on it and find projections to 3-D though.Sep 20 23:06
schestowitzOmar87: the bible says God looks like me and youSep 20 23:07
Omar87schestowitz: The bible is wrong.Sep 20 23:07
schestowitzSome bibles anyway.... most doSep 20 23:07
schestowitzEven the most ancient onesSep 20 23:07
schestowitzSome show Gods looking like animalsSep 20 23:07
Omar87schestowitz: Would you like a proof for thaT?Sep 20 23:07
schestowitzOr part man, part animalsSep 20 23:07
schestowitzI don't need proof of itSep 20 23:07
schestowitzI agree with youSep 20 23:07
zilogwe can also see in the 4th dimention Roy, that being time.Sep 20 23:07
schestowitzNot just time, MutexSep 20 23:08
Omar87schestowitz: There are 25 versions of the bible, none of them agrees with any of the rest. So, which one should we believe?Sep 20 23:08
schestowitzNoneSep 20 23:08
schestowitzIt has some historical referencesSep 20 23:08
schestowitzSome are trueSep 20 23:08
schestowitzLike all sort of genocides and stuffSep 20 23:09
Omar87schestowitz: However, I as a Muslim believe in the Bilble, Torah and the Quran. (However, not the Bible and Torah we have now)Sep 20 23:10
Omar87schestowitz: If you go take any copy of the Quran on earth and compare it with any other version on earth, you'll find them totally identical.Sep 20 23:11
schestowitz 20 23:14
Omar87schestowitz: Is it really better than Pidgin?Sep 20 23:15
schestowitzI've used nietherSep 20 23:17
schestowitzGTK.....Sep 20 23:17
schestowitzAnd I don't IM.Sep 20 23:17
schestowitzFirefox's Flash check drives 10M to Adobe's download < >Sep 20 23:17
schestowitzHeh.Sep 20 23:17
cubezzzthat reminds me I need to give gnash a trySep 20 23:19
schestowitzI hear it's good now (for videos)Sep 20 23:21
schestowitzOmar87: when everyone agrees on a text, we'll have a LOT less to argue about in this worldSep 20 23:23
schestowitzMostly territory and food and water then......Sep 20 23:23
schestowitzI want to try more wms.. 20 23:26
Omar87schestowitz: Unfortunately, of not all the world agrees on trivial logic, then how on earth would they agree on a text?Sep 20 23:29
Omar87if* not all..Sep 20 23:30
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schestowitzHeh. 20 23:50
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schestowitzReal-Time Earth Wallpaper For Linux 20 23:59
schestowitzReal-Time Earth Wallpaper For Linux 20 23:59

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