IRC: #boycottnovell @ FreeNode: September 22nd, 2009

bhueyschestowitz: I hope that what I said was interestingSep 22 00:00
*yuhong ( has joined #boycottnovellSep 22 00:00
bhueyit's fine IMO now. I have to talk to miguel just to make sure that this isn't going to be taken as an insult by thenSep 22 00:01
bhueythemSep 22 00:01
yuhongFrom 22 00:01
oiaohmKDE is stopping chasing the Windows.  They are now adding more and more useful features.Sep 22 00:01
fewahow can you chase something which isn't moving?Sep 22 00:02
yuhong"Yeah--a lot of things about the business part of things. I don't play bridge."Sep 22 00:03
schestowitzbhuey: still at Sun?Sep 22 00:03
bhueyschestowitz: no, novell. Might end up at RHSep 22 00:03
yuhong"I am not a competive person."Sep 22 00:03
bhueyschestowitz: but I was at NetApp so I know ZFS in a different perspectiveSep 22 00:04
schestowitzOh.Sep 22 00:04
schestowitzOops.Sep 22 00:04
schestowitzbhuey: yes, they sue notSep 22 00:04
bhueyschestowitz: I got laid-off from Novell in November under good relations in a rather elite group doing virtualization amoungst other things :)Sep 22 00:04
schestowitzYou left Sun before the chaos.Sep 22 00:04
schestowitz 22 00:04
bhueyschestowitz: never was at SunSep 22 00:05
schestowitzOhSep 22 00:05
yuhongAlready I could tell what would happen if DR won the IBM PC contract instead of MS.Sep 22 00:05
schestowitzI got confused there, sorry.Sep 22 00:05
bhueySun was suing NetApptSep 22 00:05
schestowitzI thought you said something about SunSep 22 00:05
schestowitzbhuey: no, both waysSep 22 00:05
bhueyNetApp crossed sued themSep 22 00:05
bhueyschestowitz: yes, nowSep 22 00:05
schestowitzNetApps sued over zfsSep 22 00:05
schestowitzUnless there was something beforehandSep 22 00:05
schestowitzSun then countersuedSep 22 00:05
bhueyschestowitz: I use to work on the Java VM heavily at BSDiSep 22 00:06
bhueyI got my start as a BSD engineerSep 22 00:06
schestowitz 22 00:06
bhueyand worked with Sun to get it running on BSD/OS and FreeBSDSep 22 00:06
schestowitzBSD suffered a blow when Microsoft agitated Yahoo!Sep 22 00:06
bhueyI was the dude that got the HotSpot VM working on the BSDs, a big dealSep 22 00:06
schestowitzYang chose BSD when he was there in Stanford with Augustin and othersSep 22 00:07
bhueyschestowitz: if you want to ever get in touch with meSep 22 00:07
schestowitzThanks a lot!Sep 22 00:07
schestowitzThe good news is that there's lots of market grab to doSep 22 00:07
schestowitzMicrosoft's next Windows has many problems, marketing aside.Sep 22 00:08
bhueyschestowitz: yeah I'm not a fan of WindowsSep 22 00:08
schestowitzRed Hat is hiring nowSep 22 00:08
schestowitz300 new hiresSep 22 00:08
bhueydon't even have a Windows machinereSep 22 00:08
schestowitzMe neither. I don't have the needSep 22 00:08
schestowitzIt's still the sameSep 22 00:08
bhueyschestowitz: yeah, I need to finish my scheduler project before asking for a job from themSep 22 00:08
schestowitzLike XP with a darker theme and some bloatSep 22 00:08
bhueybetween my Linux boxes and MacbookSep 22 00:09
yuhongI would not go that far.Sep 22 00:09
bhueyI don't need windowsSep 22 00:09
schestowitzIt still comes with IE. Not much of an attraction...Sep 22 00:09
yuhongI do dual-boot, BTW.Sep 22 00:09
yuhongRunning Vista and not going to upgrade to 7 anytime soon.Sep 22 00:09
schestowitzLinux-UNIX 'wars' are back because of AppleSep 22 00:10
schestowitzOn the desktop anyway......Sep 22 00:10
schestowitzNot devices or servers.Sep 22 00:10
yuhongYep, I know about Mac OS X.Sep 22 00:10
oiaohmIts been funny the arm 8 core processor is being looked at as a server processor.Sep 22 00:10
schestowitz"It puts the Linux phenomenon and the Unix phenomenon at the top of the list." --Steve Ballmer, 2001Sep 22 00:10
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[scientes] Grand jury? "A Texas court affirms the right of a judge and a prosecutor who slept together to condemn a man to death" 22 00:10
oiaohmIf arm damages the large server market it will kinda leave MS open.Sep 22 00:11
oiaohmTo even worse attack.Sep 22 00:11
yuhongDual-booting with Ubuntu 9.04 and planning on upgrade to 9.10.Sep 22 00:11
schestowitzoiaohm: they can run WInCE on the servers :-)Sep 22 00:11
yuhongFunny.Sep 22 00:11
oiaohmArm was targeting netbooks with 8 core version.Sep 22 00:11
schestowitzWhat for?Sep 22 00:12
schestowitzToo much powerSep 22 00:12
yuhongRunning Linux right now.Sep 22 00:12
schestowitzKDE4 is fine with one coreSep 22 00:12
oiaohm8 core only uses 1.5 watts schestowitzSep 22 00:12
oiaohmAt full load.Sep 22 00:12
schestowitzoiaohm: is arm tickless?Sep 22 00:13
schestowitzenabled I mean?Sep 22 00:13
oiaohmLot more than just ticklessSep 22 00:13
schestowitzDOes it do scaling like in phones?Sep 22 00:13
*jono (n=jono@ubuntu/member/jono) has joined #boycottnovellSep 22 00:13
oiaohmAutomatically turns on and off sections of the cpu.Sep 22 00:13
schestowitzIntel has to redo x86Sep 22 00:13
schestowitzSPARC was an issue to themSep 22 00:13
oiaohmSo only the sections you need for the command the cpu is processing is eating power.Sep 22 00:13
schestowitzWho knows what Oracle will do with itSep 22 00:13
cubezzzspeaking of ARM, does any ARM cpu have FPU?Sep 22 00:14
oiaohmArm cpu design does not give FPU a different instructions set.Sep 22 00:14
schestowitzjono bacon: I hear next Ubuntu will be Mighty MouseSep 22 00:14
oiaohmYes Arm cpus can do floating point native.Sep 22 00:14
trmancololSep 22 00:15
yuhongPersonally, I don't feel Vista or 7 is bad, but it does not make MS's astroturfing any less ethical, of course:Sep 22 00:15
yuhong 22 00:15
trmancomighty mouse haSep 22 00:15
schestowitzPaul Terry might sue over trademarks, jono 22 00:16
oiaohmVista 7 I have a few people I know hooked on it.Sep 22 00:16
schestowitzyuhong: why should I buy Vista 7?Sep 22 00:16
schestowitzWhat does it give me?Sep 22 00:16
schestowitzAs a Linux user?Sep 22 00:16
schestowitzOr hypothetical XP userSep 22 00:16
yuhongPersonally, I am on Vista, and no I am not planning to upgrade to 7.Sep 22 00:16
schestowitzWhy would you?Sep 22 00:17
schestowitzWhat's in 7?Sep 22 00:17
yuhongI won't.Sep 22 00:17
schestowitzI knowSep 22 00:17
yuhongI will install Vista SP2 instead.Sep 22 00:17
schestowitzIt's rhetoricalSep 22 00:17
fewayuhong, do you use Linux too?Sep 22 00:17
yuhongYes.Sep 22 00:17
oiaohmThat is the problem MS has yuhongSep 22 00:17
schestowitzMaybe the code has been tightened a bitSep 22 00:17
oiaohmMS needs income.Sep 22 00:17
schestowitzTo use less RAM and CPU, but Vista was a bad gorilla...Sep 22 00:17
oiaohmNo income less maintaince.Sep 22 00:17
fewaalthough Vista has so much of the DRM groundwork laidSep 22 00:18
schestowitzJust removing cruft doesn't change the OSSep 22 00:18
oiaohmWe are already starting to see mainttaince stress.Sep 22 00:18
yuhongAnd on Linux side I am planning to upgrade to Ubuntu 9.10.Sep 22 00:18
fewaDRM=evilSep 22 00:18
oiaohmThe question is how fast will the maintaince stress get worse.Sep 22 00:18
schestowitzoiaohm: how many in Red Hat work on RHEL 3 and 4?Sep 22 00:18
schestowitzThey need to patch Linux 2.4 alsoSep 22 00:18
yuhongWait while I bring up another IRC log on DRM.Sep 22 00:18
oiaohmRHEL does free upgrades if issue maintaince slips inside support time schestowitzSep 22 00:19
oiaohmSo that would mean everyone with XP should get Vista at least if MS cannot support XP to follow RHEL system.Sep 22 00:20
*jono has quit ("Later, Skater")Sep 22 00:20
oiaohmIe you are supported with RHEL for the time they promise no matter what.Sep 22 00:20
schestowitzEvolution 2.28.0 released!! < >Sep 22 00:21
schestowitzoiaohm: but they still have like an 8-year patching windowsSep 22 00:21
schestowitz*WindowSep 22 00:21
schestowitzSo some clients insist on "if it ain't broken, don't fix it"Sep 22 00:22
oiaohmIn that 8 years.Sep 22 00:22
schestowitzThere are also old embedded kernels based on RHELSep 22 00:22
oiaohmThey must do the patches or give free upgrades.Sep 22 00:22
schestowitzYou can't just upgrade firmware on just /some/ productsSep 22 00:22
oiaohmThat is what they agree to.Sep 22 00:22
schestowitzAh, KSep 22 00:23
oiaohmOk embed stuff that is makers problem of not including update system.Sep 22 00:23
bhueyschestowitz: thanks, out of hereSep 22 00:23
bhueybtw, NetApp isn't anti-open sourceSep 22 00:23
schestowitzNice talking to you!Sep 22 00:23
schestowitzbhuey: I knowSep 22 00:23
bhueythe CTO is very pro LinuxSep 22 00:23
bhueyyou have more to worry about Sun than NetAppSep 22 00:24
schestowitzBut it's some guy who did a boycott netapp thingSep 22 00:24
bhueyNetApp wants to be left alone to work on their stuff and little elseSep 22 00:24
schestowitzTo be left alone means leaving the lawyers awaySep 22 00:24
oiaohmBasically with redhat I had old redhat 7.3  I got upgrade to 8 due to updates not being done fully in the 8 year window.  Redhat very rarely fails to keep system maintained for the 8 years.Sep 22 00:24
schestowitzAnd letting people just write codeSep 22 00:24
schestowitzNetApp brought in the legal departmentSep 22 00:25
bhueyI use to work in the WAFL group so I know that they're working on making the volumes bigger, etc... that's more important than pickng a bitch fight with SunSep 22 00:25
oiaohmthinking most of the time Redhat does not have to create the patches.Sep 22 00:25
oiaohmJust import and build the now software.Sep 22 00:25
bhueyschestowitz: it was more complicated than thatSep 22 00:25
cubezzzoiaohm, on this one I don't think I have VFPSep 22 00:25
schestowitzbhuey: well, lawyers love itSep 22 00:25
schestowitzIt's like construction companies at times of warSep 22 00:25
bhueyschestowitz: the patent thing is complicated, it's a kind of mutual destruction thingSep 22 00:25
schestowitzHaliburtonSep 22 00:25
bhueythat's what's going onSep 22 00:25
bhueyrightSep 22 00:26
bhueyNetApp can't really let up until there's a judgement because they can't let Sun hold patents over their headsSep 22 00:26
oiaohmMS biggest problem is they have to 100 percent support there code base.Sep 22 00:26
bhueyJohnathan has misrepresented the problem as open source versus NetApp which it isn'tSep 22 00:26
oiaohmSo making 10 years of support expensive to do.Sep 22 00:26
oiaohmCompared to Linux distributions where the 8 years of support is shared between them.Sep 22 00:27
oiaohmAnd with companies using it.Sep 22 00:27
bhueyok out of here. laterSep 22 00:27
*bhuey has quit ("leaving")Sep 22 00:27
oiaohmPeople don't under stand how many fixes redhat gets from its users.Sep 22 00:27
schestowitzoiaohm: 22 00:27
schestowitzoiaohm: they are #1 patcherSep 22 00:28
schestowitzThe only think more enjoyable than Linux news now is MSFT news. They win nada, they mess up all the timeSep 22 00:29
schestowitzI remember how different it was in 2006 when Microsoft could still throw some partiesSep 22 00:29
oiaohmLook closer.  Lot of patches from redhat are not redhat internally developed patches.Sep 22 00:31
yuhongSorry for the long delay, but here it is:Sep 22 00:31
yuhong 22 00:31
oiaohmBut redhat tested patches from other parties.Sep 22 00:31
yuhongDRM-free is IMPOSSIBLE on Blu-Ray, but possible on HD DVD!Sep 22 00:31
oiaohmOpen Source makes long term support of a product cheaper.Sep 22 00:31
schestowitzCan you point to the message?Sep 22 00:32
schestowitzYou can link to particular linesSep 22 00:32
oiaohmDRM-free is not impossiable on Blu-RaySep 22 00:32
schestowitzSee the times are hyperlinksSep 22 00:32
oiaohmYou can burn Blu-Ray disks not encrpyted and still play them in blueray players yuhongSep 22 00:33
yuhongYes, I mentioned that later, I was talking about replication.Sep 22 00:33
yuhong 22 00:33
schestowitz"I am wondering if we should not blame the OS vendors for DRM "anti-features", blaming Hollywood instead for demanding them."Sep 22 00:33
schestowitzI think it's differentSep 22 00:33
schestowitzHollywood sued Apple and MicrosoftSep 22 00:34
schestowitzOr threatened to around 2005Sep 22 00:34
oiaohmIt also will become possiable to decode blu ray in video card.Sep 22 00:34
schestowitzSo they were bullied into DRM to an extentSep 22 00:34
schestowitzLinux doesn't have this problemSep 22 00:34
oiaohmThe path we are on is nasty.Sep 22 00:34
schestowitzYou can't sue LinuxSep 22 00:34
oiaohmStop doing the decoding in cpuSep 22 00:34
oiaohmMove decoding in gpu.Sep 22 00:34
oiaohmSo making ripping harder.Sep 22 00:34
yuhongInteresting, since that is usually treated as a performance optimization.Sep 22 00:35
oiaohmIts both yuhongSep 22 00:35
oiaohmgpu can decode it better than cpu.   If drm gets added to gpu cpu access the decoded data can become impossiable.Sep 22 00:36
yuhongBut yes, a good idea.Sep 22 00:36
oiaohmThere was no need for the OS to support DRM.Sep 22 00:36
oiaohmHardware could have been doing it.Sep 22 00:36
yuhongInteresting idea BSep 22 00:37
cubezzzET phone homeSep 22 00:37
cubezzzor XP phone homeSep 22 00:37
fewaor Vista phone homeSep 22 00:37
fewaand if it failsSep 22 00:37
fewauser=criminalSep 22 00:37
oiaohmWe are already heading down that path yuhongSep 22 00:37
fewacriminal is the defaultSep 22 00:38
yuhongYep , I know.Sep 22 00:38
oiaohmWith encrypted between screen and video card breaking it is even more of a pain in but.Sep 22 00:38
fewaif you don't pay your protection money your computer your computer will stop functioningSep 22 00:38
yuhongGuilty until proven innocent.Sep 22 00:38
fewayuhong, 1 secSep 22 00:38
oiaohmThere are even some ideas around to do the decode inside the screen it self.Sep 22 00:38
oiaohmSo making it simple for users to update the drm support.Sep 22 00:39
oiaohmOk expensive but simple.Sep 22 00:39
yuhongBut my point was that if Linux was to be certified for Blu-Ray, probably some of the anti-features would be need to be added to Linux too.Sep 22 00:39
fewayuhong, 22 00:39
oiaohmNot at all yuhongSep 22 00:39
fewathe M$ press: "Users May Have To Prove Legal Windows Use"Sep 22 00:39
*jono (n=jono@ubuntu/member/jono) has joined #boycottnovellSep 22 00:39
fewaie Guilty until proven innocentSep 22 00:39
oiaohmThere are already cerfited blu-ray players running Linux.Sep 22 00:40
fewaor guilty until agrees to pay their protection moneySep 22 00:40
trmanco 22 00:40
oiaohmThey use chip decoding yuhongSep 22 00:40
fewaand its a complete misrepresentation of the eventsSep 22 00:40
yuhongCan you give me some links.Sep 22 00:40
oiaohmThis is when I wish I was in the Office.Sep 22 00:41
fewaand the press is trying to manufacture consentSep 22 00:41
fewapretend what MS is doing is just dandy, OKSep 22 00:41
oiaohmI would be able to go over to the parts catalog right now and give you the parts numbers.Sep 22 00:41
fewapreempt people natural repugnanceSep 22 00:41
oiaohmSimple issue here lot of players of blueray don't have large enough cpu's to process blueraySep 22 00:41
fewarepugnance at being treated like a criminal just to use their own hardwareSep 22 00:41
oiaohmSo depend on a decoding and rendering chip to do the job.Sep 22 00:42
cubezzzI'm pretty careful about what hardware I buySep 22 00:42
yuhongAfterwards, I talked about whether DRM-free was possible, and looked like HD DVD was better in this area than Blu-Ray.Sep 22 00:42
oiaohmSo as long as the chip follows the rules the OS does not yuhongSep 22 00:42
fewayuhong, yarpSep 22 00:42
fewaBlu-ray has DRM-mandatory featuresSep 22 00:42
yuhongYep.Sep 22 00:42
fewaits anti-competitive to its boneSep 22 00:43
cubezzzno need to go out and buy blu-ray stand-aloneSep 22 00:43
schestowitzI was just thinking..... since corps are tyrannical by nature, it would be insane to ever blame Novell engineers for /anything/... but it's people at the top (the tyrants) who don't practice democracy and have no veto against them. That's why BIllG and SteveB can be shown in so many E-mail having the final say about crime.Sep 22 00:43
trmanco 22 00:43
trmancobeta1 is hereSep 22 00:43
fewaand would be completely obsolete if bandwidth didn't suck so much, esp. in the USSep 22 00:43
cubezzzdo we have any Novel peeps here? :)Sep 22 00:43
cubezzzI'm guessing notSep 22 00:43
yuhongWhat was even more embarrassing was that it seems that schestowitz did not realize HD DVD was better in DRM-free than Blu-Ray.Sep 22 00:44
fewaschestowitz, corporations are the anti-thesis to the marketSep 22 00:44
fewathey essentially governmentsSep 22 00:44
fewathe big onesSep 22 00:44
fewagovernments that just shove their expenses onto othersSep 22 00:44
fewaand internalize the greatest profits, with no moral compasses--because they are not aliveSep 22 00:45
fewaif you kill someone, you are put in jailSep 22 00:45
yuhong 22 00:45
fewabut if 10 people incorporate--and then one puts out the bannana peel, the other puts a knife in the wall next to that areaSep 22 00:45
fewaetcSep 22 00:45
oiaohmschestowitz: depends just because you are an engineer you don't have to put you name behind stupidity.  Mignel is guilt of that.Sep 22 00:45
cubezzzbtw, back in the late 80's I didn't feel any anti-SCO sentimentSep 22 00:46
fewathen supposedly you can't sue any of these people, none are responsibleSep 22 00:46
oiaohmIn correctSep 22 00:47
fewaoiaohm, yep, like frm. Attorney General AshcroftSep 22 00:47
cubezzzI felt uneasy about Microsoft even back then thoughSep 22 00:47
schestowitztrmanco: that's juicy codeSep 22 00:47
oiaohmIncorrect fewaSep 22 00:47
*schestowitz goes to make some foodSep 22 00:47
trmancowhat is?Sep 22 00:47
fewawhen he came and just made a total fool of himselfSep 22 00:47
schestowitzShishKabab-PHP-IDE.htmlSep 22 00:47
oiaohmThe one who drop the bannana peel would be in trouble. for tripping hazard.Sep 22 00:47
trmancoLOLSep 22 00:47
schestowitzfewa: Free market is the darling of Big BusinessSep 22 00:48
trmancoFrom what I saw from the screenshots, it's made in qtSep 22 00:48
schestowitzThey don't like rulesSep 22 00:48
fewaschestowitz, if it is enforcedSep 22 00:48
yuhongThe better multinationals has better moral compasses, and don't just shove their expenses onto others,  and internalize the greatest profits, of course.Sep 22 00:48
schestowitzBut they try to market "free market" as good for 'the people'Sep 22 00:48
yuhongThey are not prefect.Sep 22 00:48
yuhongMS is one of the worse ones, Google is one of the better ones.Sep 22 00:49
oiaohmCisco systems has one of the best moral compasses on everything bar china.Sep 22 00:49
schestowitzfewa: they make up their rules as they go alongSep 22 00:50
schestowitzThey agree with 'each other' (collusion)Sep 22 00:50
oiaohmCisco systems have 3 phone centers around the world about 8 hours apart so on one has to do night shift on phones.Sep 22 00:50
fewaschestowitz, there was that discussion with zlg the other daySep 22 00:50
schestowitzE.g.:Sep 22 00:50
fewahe assumed he could get me for somethingSep 22 00:50
schestowitz"We newspapers need bailout"Sep 22 00:50
schestowitz"We need paygates"Sep 22 00:50
schestowitz"We need software patents"Sep 22 00:50
schestowitz.....Sep 22 00:50
yuhong"shove their expenses onto others and internalize the greatest profits, with no moral compasses"Sep 22 00:50
yuhongThat reminds of shareholder value, another freaking mess altogetherSep 22 00:50
fewawhen i said that the government has no legitimate interest in regulating what I do with a deviceSep 22 00:50
fewathen he agreed with meSep 22 00:50
cubezzz??Sep 22 00:51
schestowitzfewa: "zlg" is mutexSep 22 00:51
fewaI would think someone like him would spin that into that they can sell anything, with any DRMSep 22 00:51
fewaschestowitz, yesSep 22 00:51
schestowitzHe's outSep 22 00:51
cubezzzzilog is still hereSep 22 00:51
fewait was actually a interesting discussionSep 22 00:51
fewahe kept making totally wrong argumentsSep 22 00:51
schestowitzOhSep 22 00:51
*schestowitz has kicked zilog from #boycottnovell (User terminated!)Sep 22 00:51
cubezzzyeah but he was getting anti-FOSSSep 22 00:51
schestowitzNot anymoreSep 22 00:51
fewadefinitely troll stuffSep 22 00:51
cubezzzthat's why I kicked him yesterdaySep 22 00:52
trmancohehSep 22 00:52
fewa 22 00:52
trmancogn guysSep 22 00:52
oiaohmDiabo i find worse than mutexSep 22 00:52
fewaI just had to start on the offensiveSep 22 00:52
cubezzzhe wouldn't answer my operating system question :)Sep 22 00:52
schestowitztrmanco: run your botSep 22 00:52
fewaand then it was easy to argue himSep 22 00:52
oiaohmmutex normally does not personally attack people.Sep 22 00:52
trmancoschestowitz: on what?Sep 22 00:52
schestowitzHe sort of doesSep 22 00:52
fewarun him into the cornerSep 22 00:52
schestowitzHe had many nymsSep 22 00:52
fewaread the logSep 22 00:53
cubezzzoiaohm, yeah he's a bit roughSep 22 00:53
schestowitztrmanco: smackbotSep 22 00:53
oiaohmInsulting people does not build understanding.Sep 22 00:53
schestowitzNot that...Sep 22 00:53
fewaI thought that discussion was actually productiveSep 22 00:53
schestowitzHe implied I compared something to Nazis, falselySep 22 00:53
cubezzzhe was basically saying people don't need source codeSep 22 00:53
trmancoI need to put it on a server to run itSep 22 00:53
fewaI have a belief (perhaps naieve) that some of these trolls dont understand the ideasSep 22 00:53
schestowitzSo he tried to pass me off as rude and dangerousSep 22 00:53
fewathey just say from the gut whatever will benifit their sideSep 22 00:54
fewaits a form of tribalismSep 22 00:54
cubezzzschestowitz, I must have missed thatSep 22 00:54
fewabut if you very adamentally state your position then they will understandSep 22 00:54
schestowitzHe's here to spy and cause troubleSep 22 00:54
fewaor at least decide to get another jobSep 22 00:54
oiaohmThinking mutex works for a closed source company idea of giving up source code is counter to nature.Sep 22 00:54
cubezzzI mean, who is he? A microsoft guy or what?Sep 22 00:54
*Zilog (n=cheese@ has joined #boycottnovellSep 22 00:54
fewaoiaohm, exactly, its just reactionary argumentsSep 22 00:54
oiaohmNon MS cubezzzSep 22 00:55
fewabut if you say what the real issues are they realize they cant fight itSep 22 00:55
fewaat least as long as people have access to the truthSep 22 00:55
oiaohmHe works for a company doing custom monitering systems cubezzzSep 22 00:55
schestowitz"cheese" is back and it smells like a pondSep 22 00:55
oiaohmSo unix and windows are there base of existance.Sep 22 00:55
*cubezzz nodsSep 22 00:55
fewaand to keep hitting them with that will break themSep 22 00:55
fewawith bring sensibility and reasonablenessSep 22 00:55
yuhong 22 00:56
fewaIts like Martin Luther King and racismSep 22 00:56
fewathat was his strategySep 22 00:56
oiaohmNot all anti opensource have to be linked to MS.Sep 22 00:56
fewamaking people face the issuesSep 22 00:56
cubezzzoiaohm, that's trueSep 22 00:56
oiaohmThere are a lot more closed source companies out there.Sep 22 00:56
oiaohmNvidia is always a funny one.Sep 22 00:56
oiaohmThey try to be Linux friendly.Sep 22 00:56
oiaohmBut always wants to keep secrets.Sep 22 00:56
yuhongYep, and MS attacks even some of them.Sep 22 00:56
fewabecause _Mutex_ is defending wrong things like DRM and TCSep 22 00:56
oiaohmDRM and TC are releated to his line of work.Sep 22 00:57
fewaand I don't actually think some closed source companies really believe in these things: they just see it as a way of defending their businessesSep 22 00:57
fewaA way of defending their nestsSep 22 00:57
fewaso you have to fight back with reasonSep 22 00:57
yuhongDR, Borland, Netscape were all closed source companies that MS attacked.Sep 22 00:57
oiaohmYep.Sep 22 00:57
oiaohmyuhong: there are a lot more closed source companyes MS has never touched.Sep 22 00:58
fewaIts Manufactured Consent's primary thesisSep 22 00:58
fewathe good runs out the badSep 22 00:58
yuhongOf course.Sep 22 00:58
fewaMS wins cause they are the worstSep 22 00:58
cubezzzok, I'm going to show you a little list I compiledSep 22 00:58
oiaohmScarry enough a lot in water management yuhongSep 22 00:58
fewaexcept until others realize the emporer has no clothesSep 22 00:59
oiaohmYes something that is more scary than MS.Sep 22 00:59
fewathat MS power is a bag of sandSep 22 00:59
cubezzz 22 00:59
oiaohmIf a lot of these closed source water management systems plays up lot of people can die.Sep 22 00:59
oiaohmFar more than MS.Sep 22 00:59
fewaoiaohm, eek, you should spread the wordSep 22 00:59
fewaoiaohm, write a guest article in boycottnovell.comSep 22 01:00
fewapeople want to read that type of stuffSep 22 01:00
oiaohmIts water power and the list goes on.Sep 22 01:00
fewabut just write about this one issueSep 22 01:00
oiaohmthere is no requirement that the source code has to be released in there contracts.Sep 22 01:00
fewadon't worry about the other for a momentSep 22 01:00
fewaoiaohm, they were doing that with voter programsSep 22 01:00
oiaohmPeople don't ask for them to checkable.Sep 22 01:00
fewaoiaohm, in my state their was a programmer who ran for office because of thisSep 22 01:01
cubezzzthe free scada stuff is interesting thoughSep 22 01:01
fewabecause while slot machines have public source, voting machines didn'tSep 22 01:01
fewait was corrupt to its coreSep 22 01:01
oiaohmWay the voter contracts were written for the USA are standard business contracts for aquiring software.Sep 22 01:01
oiaohmWhen you wake up to that is not everything critical scary.Sep 22 01:01
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oiaohmHuge black boxes.Sep 22 01:02
yuhongI know about voting machines.Sep 22 01:02
oiaohmVoting machines water power basically everything that can be computer controlled could have its software aquired by that kind of contract yuhongSep 22 01:02
oiaohmAs a consumer you don't have to even be told that you are depending on a black box.Sep 22 01:02
yuhongAnd on DR, from 22 01:03
cubezzzI don't think we have ever used computer voting machines in CanadaSep 22 01:03
oiaohmVoting machines are the only ones that are starting to get rules.Sep 22 01:03
fewathis guy 22 01:03
fewaworking to get accountable election in Washington StateSep 22 01:03
fewa 22 01:04
yuhong"Yeah--a lot of things about the business part of things. I am not a competitive person. I don't play bridge."Sep 22 01:04
cubezzzI'm sure the code must be auditedSep 22 01:04
yuhongAlready I could tell what would happen if DR won the IBM PC contract back in 1980 instead of MS.Sep 22 01:04
yuhongThanks Google Books for making back issues of InfoWorld available.Sep 22 01:04
oiaohmMS won because they were the cheeper contract.Sep 22 01:05
oiaohmAnd were classed as good enough.Sep 22 01:05
oiaohmLinux is starting to move into the good enough class for a lot of people.Sep 22 01:05
cubezzzKildall would have been very rich :)Sep 22 01:05
ZilogSCADA Systems are essentually OPEN Source, the client will provide a detailed functional description of the operation of the plant, or system. Which is essentually a series of PV's and SP's (process variables and Set Points). The SCADA Systems engineering contractor is then required to "code" that plant/factory into the PLC's, and design a GUI for the supervisory section. So it is quite open for the client.Sep 22 01:05
yuhongNot exactly, MS won because IBM tried DR, but failed, which was another story altogether.Sep 22 01:06
oiaohmNot in all cases ZilogSep 22 01:06
Zilogin mostSep 22 01:06
yuhongAnyway, compare with Bill Gates, and seee my point.Sep 22 01:07
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oiaohmIt should be a regulatorly requirement for critical structs ZilogSep 22 01:07
fewaabsolutelySep 22 01:08
fewaanything critical must have source availableSep 22 01:08
fewaand should have the whole version control backupSep 22 01:08
fewaall the historySep 22 01:08
Zilogthe SCADA system is an analog of the physical plant, it is a virtual mirror, so the regularotary requirements are inherent in the overall design, but I get your point. It's a very regulated field as well.Sep 22 01:09
oiaohmIts like saying most voting system are open source.  While there is no a regulatorly requirement for it some bad operaters will close it.Sep 22 01:10
oiaohmIts just a section of regulation that has been overlooked.Sep 22 01:10
oiaohmYes in such a regulated field is supprising it got over looked.Sep 22 01:11
Zilogthe design and layout and structure of critical SCADA systems are not made public knowledge, simply because of security issues.Sep 22 01:12
oiaohmI did not say made publicSep 22 01:12
oiaohmopen source does not have to equal public.Sep 22 01:12
ZilogtrueSep 22 01:12
oiaohmJust that the source code must be provided along with the binaries to the end user.Sep 22 01:13
oiaohmIe the company you made the SCADA system for.Sep 22 01:14
yuhongCorporations aren't really like government.Sep 22 01:14
oiaohmDepends on the Corporation.Sep 22 01:14
oiaohmAnd the goverment.Sep 22 01:14
ZilogYes, in the documentation of the system we provide all the source code for their system, in hard and soft form, after all they paid me alot to write it. it's theirs.Sep 22 01:15
oiaohmNot all companies do that ZilogSep 22 01:15
oiaohmSome want support contracts and other evils.Sep 22 01:15
Zilogthat may be true, but ours did.Sep 22 01:16
oiaohmIe closed source black mail.Sep 22 01:16
Zilogwhich is probably why it's the biggest and best in the country :)Sep 22 01:16
oiaohmI am not thinking just yours ZilogSep 22 01:16
oiaohmYou only need one rouge to cause some large problems.Sep 22 01:16
oiaohmEven for your setups.Sep 22 01:16
ZilogSure, we had that too, even for a company that does make it fully available to the customer, we have a rogue employee who ended up in prison for hacking and causing a 100,000ltl sewage spill in a Qld turest resortSep 22 01:17
yuhong 22 01:18
yuhongAbout MS.Sep 22 01:18
yuhongHyper-V in particular.Sep 22 01:19
oiaohmI was refering to other companyes not employees that your customers could be depending on for something.  Brought to a grinding halt by something that cannot be fixed. ZilogSep 22 01:19
oiaohmSource code provide is critical to stablity of important systems.Sep 22 01:19
fewaMust be a law for open-source in critical businessSep 22 01:20
Zilogwe got around that in our area by providing the complete service right down to the design and manufacture of the RTU's and PLC's. Hardware, firmware, software ,application, integration, System engineering, install, maintenance, if you go Ad Hoc you can expect to have more problemsSep 22 01:21
fewaif it is not fallowed then those than company that did not get the source is liable for all negligenceSep 22 01:21
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fewaand the person who made such a determinationSep 22 01:21
oiaohmThat is the laws we need fewa.Sep 22 01:23
fewaanything else will cause great mistakes to be madeSep 22 01:23
oiaohmAs Zilog knows there is still lots of cash even without closed source binaries.Sep 22 01:23
fewaand no ability to blame those responsibleSep 22 01:23
fewaand no ability to determine disturbersSep 22 01:24
fewaand those who try to do harmSep 22 01:24
fewayou see this "terrorism" stuff is 100% poliiticalSep 22 01:24
oiaohmIf you want to destroy a city.Sep 22 01:25
cubezzzsecurity is definitely necessartSep 22 01:25
oiaohmHit the water treatment plant.Sep 22 01:25
fewaits not about making people safe, its about Oil, and in Afghanistan: controlling the opium marketSep 22 01:25
oiaohmMost terrists are idiots.Sep 22 01:25
fewamost accused "terrorists" are journalistsSep 22 01:25
fewaand those who speak out against the stateSep 22 01:25
Zilogyes, you can do real bad things if you can hit SCADA plants, our systems are never "on the net".Sep 22 01:26
fewathey are political exclusionsSep 22 01:26
ZilogSome have dial in thoughSep 22 01:26
oiaohmJust watch out for the stupid laptop with wireless internet connect.Sep 22 01:26
oiaohmHad that happen on one of the systems that I was finding out how it got infected.Sep 22 01:27
oiaohmIt was not on the net but the laptop connected to down load data was.Sep 22 01:27
Zilogthat is a common mistake we dont make either, the SCADA system and the companies LAN/Network are never connected.Sep 22 01:27
ZilogAs much as managements begs us too.,Sep 22 01:28
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oiaohmSo you don't have 1 way data relay boxes.Sep 22 01:28
oiaohmSo they can monitor but not change.Sep 22 01:28
Zilogthats all we have is basically zero access, views, if that.Sep 22 01:28
ZilogSMS, and Email alerting as well.Sep 22 01:29
oiaohm1 way data relay boxes are quite simple to make.Sep 22 01:29
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[scientes] "10%of $ from the US government that is for non-military activities flowing into #Afghanistan …upwards of $150M/day" #warSep 22 01:29
oiaohmI have used them to protect stuff like credit card data on web sites as well ZilogSep 22 01:30
Zilogwith carefull use of "user rights management" you can give clients quite alot of access with the amount you can change from zero to everything, depending on your right. But the supervisory computers are not physically on the same network as the company/corporate net.Sep 22 01:33
oiaohmI do a lot of shadow networks.   Like backup storage networks.  Yet connected to the main network but most of the time data entering there is one way so in case of breach what is old records cannot be got at.Sep 22 01:35
oiaohmuser rights with that stuff is not a major head ache.  I do hate doing the reverse.Sep 22 01:37
ZilogSCADA systems everything I mean everything is logged, and backed up, so you can go back years and find out why a certain valve opened, what operaters were on shift, who was loged onto the system, exactly what each operator did and when. They keep it all.Sep 22 01:37
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CaptainCanucklooking for a distro like but not ubuntu. fedora doesnt work with my boxSep 22 01:40
oiaohmMajor question why does it not work with your box.Sep 22 01:40
CaptainCanucksince ubuntu has mono, its a pissoffSep 22 01:40
CaptainCanuckidk it hangs when logging inSep 22 01:41
oiaohmSo kernel runs.Sep 22 01:41
oiaohmand hardware detects?Sep 22 01:41
CaptainCanuckyesSep 22 01:41
oiaohmOk that makes it simpler.Sep 22 01:41
oiaohmThere are a lot of Ubuntu releations out there without mono.Sep 22 01:41
oiaohmany particular preference for wm?Sep 22 01:42
oiaohmWindows manager.Sep 22 01:42
CaptainCanuckgnome or kdeSep 22 01:43
CaptainCanucknot xfceSep 22 01:43
oiaohmOk kde mint is not bad.Sep 22 01:43
oiaohmUbuntu kernel is under it.Sep 22 01:44
CaptainCanuckhmm isnt mint like windows?Sep 22 01:44
oiaohmmint is very much stock standard kde with only very minor alterations.Sep 22 01:45
cubezzzwhat part of Canada, Captain?Sep 22 01:45
oiaohmIf you think not altered kde looks like windows ok.Sep 22 01:45
CaptainCanuckt.oSep 22 01:46
CaptainCanuckoiaohm: rephrase last line?Sep 22 01:47
CaptainCanucktorontoSep 22 01:47
oiaohmLot of people look at the kde layout and say it looks like windows.Sep 22 01:47
oiaohmEven that is not exactly a new layout.Sep 22 01:47
cubezzzyou can see most distros here: 22 01:48
oiaohmkubuntu trys to reshape kde to look like gnome.   So lot of people lost what kde really looks like.Sep 22 01:48
oiaohmI still remember the one here were zdnet australia went around with a stock KDE on the street and people blieved it was the next version of windows CaptainCanuckSep 22 01:52
CaptainCanucklol okSep 22 01:55
CaptainCanucksry for my ignorance :)Sep 22 01:55
oiaohmYou are not alone CaptainCanuckSep 22 01:56
CaptainCanuckthats the sad truthSep 22 01:56
oiaohmI am quite liking kde 4.3Sep 22 01:57
fewa*Gonzalez, not AshcroftSep 22 01:58
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-BNc/#boycottnovell-[scientes] $10 Million award after man's #health #insurance coverage was canceled after he tested HIV+ Spr Court:"reprehensible" #hcSep 22 02:43
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[scientes] $10 Million award after man's #health #insurance coverage was canceled when he tested HIV+ Spr Court:"reprehensible" #hcSep 22 02:46
CaptainCanuckinb4 health insurance debateSep 22 02:50
fewa?Sep 22 02:54
oiaohmWith advances in medical care 10 million pay out to an aids infected person might be cheep.Sep 22 02:54
fewa^^^^^Sep 22 02:54
fewawhere "advances" means more expensiveSep 22 02:54
fewa==patented life-saving drugsSep 22 02:55
oiaohmNot only drugs.Sep 22 02:55
fewaand 30% profit and overhead in the private insurance companiesSep 22 02:55
oiaohmCost to operate on an AID infected person is far more expensive than non infected person.Sep 22 02:55
fewain the USSep 22 02:55
Zilogoiaohm, everyone is assumed to be positive these days.Sep 22 02:56
fewaZilog, wtf???Sep 22 02:56
oiaohmNo for elective you are tested ZilogSep 22 02:57
oiaohmAnd other planed operations.Sep 22 02:57
oiaohmEmerency has to operate on that people coming in is infected with everything.Sep 22 02:57
fewaZilog, == Telstra Internet == _Mutex_Sep 22 02:58
Zilogyes, and until they test you they assume you are positive, and standard procedures are "aids" safe regardless of if you have it or not.Sep 22 02:58
fewaZilog == misinformation junkieSep 22 02:58
fewahes been doing it all daySep 22 02:58
fewajust read the logsSep 22 02:58
oiaohmWith a postive test operation room has to operate differently.  Including full clean before and after operation.Sep 22 02:59
Zilogallright they dont then, they dont wear gloves and so on, fineSep 22 02:59
ZilogIDGAFSep 22 02:59
oiaohmAids person is more open to infection.Sep 22 02:59
fewaZilog, whos paying you・Sep 22 02:59
oiaohmAnd less able to recover from it.Sep 22 02:59
fewaZilog, who do you work for?Sep 22 02:59
oiaohmSo operating on them and keeping them alive is harder.Sep 22 03:00
oiaohmMinor stuff that is harmless to a normal person is not to aids infected.Sep 22 03:00
ZilogIm independently wealthy, and run my own business, (and mind my own bisiness).Sep 22 03:00
oiaohmSame has to be done with people with an natrally weak white cell count.Sep 22 03:01
oiaohmCost is almost tribble due to the extras.Sep 22 03:01
fewaZilog, is your business being a private contractor?Sep 22 03:01
Zilogfewa, what have I been doing all night ?Sep 22 03:02
fewaZilog, been watching this channel for schestowitz to go to sleepSep 22 03:02
Zilogfewa what it is is MY businessSep 22 03:02
fewaZilog, so you could troll this channelSep 22 03:02
fewaZilog, I don't think you would do it without getting paidSep 22 03:02
Zilogsure, whatever.Sep 22 03:02
fewaor but so dedicated to doing itSep 22 03:02
oiaohmNote emergcy only class people as aids infected from the point of doctor protection.Sep 22 03:03
fewayou have trolled this channel for monthsSep 22 03:03
oiaohmThey don't alter the treatment to give aids infected best chance of living.Sep 22 03:03
Zilogoiaohm, yesSep 22 03:04
oiaohmNow when you are treating aids infected with best chance of them living.Sep 22 03:04
oiaohmIts expensive.Sep 22 03:04
ZilogyesSep 22 03:04
oiaohmwhat insurance companies would have to be paying form time to time.Sep 22 03:05
oiaohmIf they still had the aids person on there books.Sep 22 03:05
oiaohm10 million might end up cheep compared to the person life and operation costs.Sep 22 03:05
oiaohmLet along drugs or anything else.Sep 22 03:06
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DaemonFClooks like Google Apps have managed to lure more people away from MS Office than OpenOfficeSep 22 03:17
oiaohm Most likely combination DaemonFCSep 22 03:19
oiaohmCounting copies of installed OpenOffice is hard.Sep 22 03:20
DaemonFCDoesn't Google Docs let you edit docx files?Sep 22 03:20
CaptainCanuckyesSep 22 03:20
DaemonFCOOo really doesn't unless you get the Novell extensionSep 22 03:20
DaemonFCeven that isn't guaranteed to be trouble freeSep 22 03:20
CaptainCanuck? no ooo can edit docx nativelySep 22 03:20
CaptainCanuck"natively"Sep 22 03:20
DaemonFCit has import filters, but no export filterSep 22 03:21
cubezzza good reason to not use docSep 22 03:21
oiaohmEven google docs don't guaranteed to be trouble free editing docxSep 22 03:21
DaemonFCtheir goal is to get you to import docx but only be able to save it as ODTSep 22 03:21
CaptainCanucky would u export to docx anyway?Sep 22 03:21
oiaohmIt will import and convert.Sep 22 03:21
oiaohmIe google will not like return docxSep 22 03:22
oiaohmIt will return either old doc or odf happly.Sep 22 03:22
oiaohmCurrently no one not even MS can process docx correctly.Sep 22 03:22
DaemonFC 22 03:22
DaemonFCdocx is supportedSep 22 03:23
oiaohmUntill you go and use it.Sep 22 03:23
oiaohmAnd find out google is as unhappy processing it as anyone else.Sep 22 03:24
oiaohmOpenOffice has kept the export filter out because its not dependable.Sep 22 03:25
oiaohmSome of your original formatting may not be preserved.  << Don't forget reading this warning DaemonFCSep 22 03:27
oiaohmIt really does apply heavly to google processing docxSep 22 03:28
DaemonFCthat's what you get with two competing formats that both have implementation gapsSep 22 03:28
DaemonFCand fuzzy parts of the "standard"Sep 22 03:28
cubezzzdocx is a microsoft invention yes?Sep 22 03:28
DaemonFCcubezzz, YesSep 22 03:28
DaemonFCOOXML support in Office 2007 is not correct, and ODF standard has some problems tooSep 22 03:28
DaemonFCeven if you implement the standard, there's still some gray areasSep 22 03:29
oiaohmODF support in MS Office is screwed.Sep 22 03:29
oiaohmThey cross breed it with OOXMLSep 22 03:29
DaemonFCprobably the worst parts of ODF.....Sep 22 03:29
DaemonFC"OASIS ODF 1.0, 1.1 and ISO/IEC 26300:2006 do not define a definite spreadsheet formula language, syntax or function libraries"Sep 22 03:29
oiaohmDoing that does not make gray.Sep 22 03:30
DaemonFC"The OpenDocument specifications OASIS ODF 1.0, 1.1 and ISO/IEC 26300:2006 do not support the use of tables in presentations"Sep 22 03:30
oiaohmYet 1.2 draft does.Sep 22 03:30
DaemonFC"The OpenDocument Format 1.0–1.1 specifications refer to 'ZIP' files but do not reference an ISO standard which describes the zip file format."Sep 22 03:30
DaemonFCZIP is not a standardSep 22 03:30
oiaohmformula language was defined before.Sep 22 03:30
DaemonFCZIP format is still only described by PKWareSep 22 03:31
oiaohmISO standards don't have to duplicate in them well defined fileformats.Sep 22 03:31
oiaohmZip is a well defined fileformat just not been put forward to ISO.Sep 22 03:32
DaemonFCso it relies on a proprietary format that has no ISO standard attached to itSep 22 03:32
oiaohmLot of the 1.0 and 1.1 errors were already addressed in the 1.2 draft.Sep 22 03:32
oiaohmNo not being ISO does not make it proprietray.Sep 22 03:33
oiaohmZIP is techincally public domain.Sep 22 03:33
oiaohmISO does not demard public domain items be listed in ISO to be used in ISO standards.Sep 22 03:33
oiaohmMS guys pulling faults out of ODF were idiots in places.Sep 22 03:34
oiaohmThere was no need to cross breed in parts that the draft covered.Sep 22 03:35
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oiaohmLot of MS arguments about ODF are nothing more than a smoke screen to cover up there lack of willing ness to work on completing the standard of ODF and there will to break it up.Sep 22 03:36
DaemonFCI'm probably going to get a new laptop soonSep 22 03:42
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DaemonFCthe old Sempron-based one is just too damned slowSep 22 03:42
DaemonFCIt's almost 5 years old and has lived it's useful lifespanSep 22 03:42
DaemonFCI may go Intel this time, but it just dependsSep 22 03:43
DaemonFCone thing is for sure though, I don't want to get one now and have to deal with another express upgrade programSep 22 03:44
DaemonFCthat XP to Vista one was godawfulSep 22 03:44
DaemonFC6 weeks in the mail, and come to find out I only got the Home Basic edition, and I ended up keeping that system on XPSep 22 03:45
DaemonFCschestowitz, 22 03:46
DaemonFC"A security researcher has discovered a cluster of infected Linux servers that have been corralled into a special ops botnet of sorts and used to distribute malware"Sep 22 03:46
fewayepSep 22 03:53
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twitterlet me guess, they were located in Redmond -> DaemonFC: "A security researcher has discovered a cluster of infected Linux servers...Sep 22 04:01
DaemonFCprobably command and control serversSep 22 04:02
twitterwhy would they bother to root those?  it's so much easier for them to use the botnet itself for command and controlSep 22 04:02
twitterI mean who thinks, "I've got 10,000 computers worth of bandwith.  Now I need to root a real computer to control them." ???Sep 22 04:03
DaemonFCprobably someone living in a country where there are lawsSep 22 04:04
DaemonFCand didn't want to make it obvious that it was them doing itSep 22 04:04
twitterwell, that's why they distribute the control structureSep 22 04:04
twitterinstead of using a single point of failure and guilt captureSep 22 04:05
twitterisn't that the point of a botnet in the first place?Sep 22 04:05
twitterit's only the dumbest of "tech journalists" and their flock that still believes theres a real difference between a "server" and a the desktop in front of them.Sep 22 04:06
twitterM$ marketing blither created the false distinctionSep 22 04:06
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twitterso this is how people continue to fall for the "gnu/linux is going to be used to control botnets" nonsense.Sep 22 04:07
fewaThose that Those who have put out the peoples eyes reproach them of their blindness - John Milton 1642Sep 22 04:10
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twitterSo, now I know what complete crap .NET is.Sep 22 04:39
twitterI've been using it at work for the last six months without realizing it.Sep 22 04:40
twitterIt's more of the same buggy junk from the M$ and the .NET stuff is even buggier than older software was.Sep 22 04:40
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DaemonFCI don't use many .Net appsSep 22 04:47
cubezzztwitter, do you get to use Linux at work at all?Sep 22 04:48
twitterI did not think I used any .NET apps.  They look just like the same old same old left overs from the late 90s.Sep 22 04:48
twitterThe company uses Linux and BSD without knowing it.Sep 22 04:49
wallclimberHas anyone visited Groklaw this evening?  There's a members only post regarding Bilski, it's very very interestingSep 22 04:49
twitterI use what they have.Sep 22 04:49
twitterbut no, I can't use software I want on my desk.Sep 22 04:49
twitterM$ FUD rules the roost in the land of the ignorantSep 22 04:50
twitterthis is an interesting thing from Helios ->  there were fears that I would go storming the gates, all wild-eyed and foaming at the mouth. People that know me know that I don't do that.  It's only those who know me by my blog alone that assume such a thing.Sep 22 04:52
twitterwhat he's talking about is not a "fear" it's a smear.Sep 22 04:52
twitterthe non free software types, while inherently aggressive and anti-social, always try to paint free software people as boorish and rude.Sep 22 04:53
wallclimberYou mean we're not???  :)Sep 22 04:53
cubezzzwallclimber, can a non member read the post?Sep 22 04:53
twitter"Haters" "smelly hippies" and so on.Sep 22 04:53
twitterI'm not rude.Sep 22 04:53
wallclimberI don't think non-members can, but I can copy some of it here, i think...would that be okay? she found some very interesting connections in her searchesSep 22 04:54
twitterIf anything, people who share their software are more polite and considerate than average.Sep 22 04:54
cubezzzyeah I may as well register, but go ahead and post in here if you likeSep 22 04:55
wallclimbertwitter, i've never seen you be rude, i was being silly. i tend to be a little goofy at the end of a Monday work day...just ignore me :)Sep 22 04:55
twitterI get accused of all sorts of things routinely.Sep 22 04:55
wallclimberi think pj closed registering a while back, but maybe she's opened it's worth a try.Sep 22 04:55
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twittereven by my "defenders"Sep 22 04:55
cubezzzyup, can't registerSep 22 04:56
cubezzzpersona non-grata _again_Sep 22 04:56
wallclimberok, i'll post some of it...back in a bit...Sep 22 04:56
cubezzz;-)Sep 22 04:56
cubezzztwitter, almost everyone I talk to about FOSS is receptiveSep 22 04:56
wallclimberHere's some: "There is an amicus brief [PDF] filed with the Supreme Court in the Bilski case that I think will interest you. It discusses software and whether it is math, it misrepresents FOSS, and it pushes software patents. Triple play. It is filed by Professor Lee Hollaar and the IEEE.Sep 22 04:56
wallclimberYes, the same Professor Hollaar that Alexander Terekhov so often has linked to in his public strategizing on how to get around the GPL. And digging a bit, I find a connection between Hollaar and Senator Orrin Hatch and Hollaar and Caldera/SCO.Sep 22 04:56
wallclimberKnock me over with a feather. It's a small world. And guess what Hollaar isn't?... A lawyer. He's a patent agent, and obviously has many credentials, but attorney isn't one of them. "Sep 22 04:56
cubezzzit's not a hard sellSep 22 04:57
DaemonFChehSep 22 04:58
wallclimberThere's quite a bit more, and I'm thinking, since she made it members only she might not want a lot of it copied outside...but here's a little bit more...Sep 22 04:59
wallclimber"Summit Law Group was one of the firms Caldera used in that lawsuit. Another was Snow Christensen, where Ryan Tibbitts worked prior to becoming general counsel to SCO Group. At the time, Caldera was under the Canopy Group umbrella, with Yarro still there. You can verify the law firms by looking at the certificate of service in this Caldera filing [PDF], or any of them. Hollaar also thanks Lineo and Summit for their money:Sep 22 04:59
wallclimber    Finally, Summit Law Group and Lineo provided important support for the development of this book and its Web site. Matt Harris and Ralph Palumbo recognized the importance of having this material widely available and made it possible.Sep 22 04:59
wallclimberLineo was, of course, an offshoot of Caldera, spun off in 1999 as a wholly owned subsidiary. Why would it want Hollaar's web site? For what business purpose would it fund it? According to a report at the time by Maureen O'Gara, Lineo eventually ran out of money. I am starting to wonder how long ago the idea of suing over the GPL first took root.Sep 22 04:59
wallclimberHarris replaced Bryan Sparks as CEO of Lineo in 2001, by the way. He started out as VP and General Counsel at Lineo when it began. Sparks founded Caldera, Inc. in 1994. Harris worked for Summit Law Group also, and in fact he was a founding member (more Lineo history at that link), and he was the lead technical lawyer for Caldera in its lawsuit against Microsoft. You'll find Palumbo in the Caldera v. Microsoft filing also. You canSep 22 04:59
DaemonFCwallclimber, lawyers, MEvangelical religious crazies, and other assorted fruits nuts and flakesSep 22 04:59
wallclimberfind Hollaar's other amicus brief submitted by him and IEEE-USA in the Bilski case, the one he filed earlier with the appeals court, on his page of papers.Sep 22 04:59
wallclimberStarting to feel like the Ozarks, where everyone is creepily related to everyone else you keep bumping into? "Sep 22 04:59
DaemonFCthat should be enough to make anyone not want to leave the houseSep 22 04:59
wallclimberand where do you fall in that list DaemonFC?Sep 22 05:00
DaemonFCwallclimber, Go watch that episode of South ParkSep 22 05:00
cubezzzLineo rings a bellSep 22 05:00
DaemonFCEveryone v. EveryoneSep 22 05:00
DaemonFCeveryone goes broke and the only one that has any money in town is the Jewish lawyerSep 22 05:00
DaemonFCthat was pretty damned funnySep 22 05:00
cubezzzLineo, right, the ones who made EmbedixSep 22 05:01
twitterhmmm, I like the picture Helios paints of Best Buy and other big box stores - over flowing with repressed gnu/linux users who have to toe the party line.Sep 22 05:02
twitterhow could it be otherwise?  anyone new and generally enthused by computers will naturally gravitate to gnu/linux.Sep 22 05:02
tessierHow are things in BN land these days?Sep 22 05:03
twitterwhere is Best Buy going to find Windows enthusiasts?  They hardly exist anymore because free software is so much cooler.Sep 22 05:03
wallclimberPJ's article is about the  Hollaar Amicus Brief in Bilski.  Hollaar apparently is trying to get Bilski overturned...if I understand it correctly.Sep 22 05:03
cubezzzBest Buy doesn't seem to have any Linux based stuff for sale except TiVOSep 22 05:04
cubezzzwhich doesn't exactly make me want to go thereSep 22 05:04
twitterwho is Hollaar and why should I care?Sep 22 05:04
wallclimbertwitter, i haven't been in a Best Buy in over a decade, but i sometimes go to Fry's Electronics for things.  asking about Linux at Fry's is quite an experienceSep 22 05:04
cubezzzgood or bad experience?Sep 22 05:05
twitterthis Hollaar? 22 05:05
twitterhe talks about all sorts of toxic things.Sep 22 05:05
twitterSweet Jesus, the man is awful.Sep 22 05:06
wallclimberWell, i'm barely 5ft tall, and bordering on elderliness, so the sales kids always laugh at me and tell me that "nobody uses Linux...we had some Linux machines here for a while and nobody wanted them.  You wouldn't like it if you bought it...etc etc...happened lots.Sep 22 05:06
twitterAt Frys?Sep 22 05:07
twitterI'll have to avoid the place.Sep 22 05:07
wallclimberYes, Fry's Electronics, here in PhoenixSep 22 05:07
twitterPeople Best Buy and other places have actually been better than that!Sep 22 05:07
wallclimberThey HATE it when little ol' ladies argue with them...Sep 22 05:07
wallclimber:)Sep 22 05:07
DaemonFCwell, Linux doesn't foster the kind of sales on sales that Windows gets themSep 22 05:07
DaemonFCI keep saying it's not surprising that they don't like itSep 22 05:08
wallclimberI asked if I could try a Live cd on one of their laptops, and they told me it was against the rules and they acted like i was trying to infect their laptops or was a hoot.  i had to go to the front desk and ask permission.Sep 22 05:08
cubezzzmost of the Dells work well, and also Panasonic Toughbook seriesSep 22 05:09
Zilogyou guys, cant easity component shop and system build ?Sep 22 05:09
DaemonFCI'm thinking of getting a Toshiba laptop this timeSep 22 05:12
wallclimberi can build my own desktops, but i don't have a clue about laptops...and i was helping my niece shop for a laptop, we just wanted o try some out.Sep 22 05:12
wallclimberit was fun.Sep 22 05:13
wallclimber*to*Sep 22 05:13
wallclimberThere's really no place else to go besides Fry's anymore...Sep 22 05:13
wallclimberat least not close to my house...Sep 22 05:13
wallclimbertwitter, Hollaar seems to be a friend of Orrin Hatch.Sep 22 05:14
cubezzzLinux laptops at the brick and mortar store level, usually noSep 22 05:15
wallclimbermaybe Dan Lyons.Sep 22 05:15
tessierI order most stuff online but I go to Fry's if I need something fast. Never talk to the salespeople there though. You better know what you want because they are clueless.Sep 22 05:15
twitterTwitter checks Zune and Vista Failure sales against Asus EEE PC and laughs -> (09:09:55 PM) DaemonFC: well, Linux doesn't foster the kind of sales on sales that Windows gets themSep 22 05:15
cubezzzwallclimber, you might consider buying a used Panasonic Toughbook, they work very well, anything CF-48 or newerSep 22 05:15
wallclimberlol, messing with the sales people is half the fun.Sep 22 05:15
DaemonFCtwitter, it doesn'tSep 22 05:16
DaemonFCLinux users typically don't buy softwareSep 22 05:16
DaemonFCor supportSep 22 05:16
wallclimberthe laptop wasn't for me, i was helping my niece look for one, hers had gotten lost and she needed a new one fast.Sep 22 05:16
DaemonFCthat's where big box stores make the sales on salesSep 22 05:16
wallclimberi order most things on line.Sep 22 05:16
cubezzzre-enforced motherboard skel to prevent flexing, gel enclosure for hd, quite niceSep 22 05:16
twittertell that to IBM, while they are busy making billions off supportSep 22 05:16
DaemonFCtwitter, home users don'tSep 22 05:17
DaemonFCcompanies buy support and suchSep 22 05:17
wallclimberor my kids give me parts for mother's day  :)Sep 22 05:17
twitterthey don't buy anything these days, which is why M$ is collapsing.Sep 22 05:17
wallclimber(that would be computer parts, of course )Sep 22 05:17
DaemonFCMicrosoft is not tankingSep 22 05:18
DaemonFCthat's wishful thinkingSep 22 05:18
twitterWell, they do want netbooks and computers that work.Sep 22 05:18
wallclimberDaemon, you're wrong, as usual.Sep 22 05:18
twitterheh.Sep 22 05:18
*twitter laughs at M$'s vanished $60 billion Sep 22 05:18
DaemonFCif I had a dollar for every time I heard the lie that Microsoft was tanking over the last 10 years, I could go buy an islandSep 22 05:19
*twitter laughs at Windows looking the same as it did a decade ago and working worseSep 22 05:19
DaemonFCit's always just around the corner it seemsSep 22 05:19
twitterpretty close no, thanksSep 22 05:19
DaemonFCWindows 98 didn't have desktop compositingSep 22 05:19
DaemonFCor SMP supportSep 22 05:19
DaemonFCor a 64-bit editionSep 22 05:19
DaemonFCor a lot of other things for that matterSep 22 05:20
DaemonFCI must have missed where Windows hasn't improvedSep 22 05:20
twitterWindows 7 barely has that either.Sep 22 05:20
twittergnu/linux does and it worksSep 22 05:20
DaemonFCsometimesSep 22 05:20
DaemonFCLinux is a decent base system that doesn't have the application support that people wantSep 22 05:21
DaemonFCif it had what users wanted, most users would use itSep 22 05:21
twittercircular logicSep 22 05:21
twitterM$ Fail Log 22 05:21
ZilogDaeon If I said that I would be called a troll or a "mutex" LOL. im not allowed to mention the "m" wordSep 22 05:21
twittergo buy an islandSep 22 05:21
DaemonFCsome of Microsoft's Best Buy module was trueSep 22 05:21
twitteroh yeahSep 22 05:21
DaemonFCthat's what gave them a base to make the false claims that followedSep 22 05:22
twitterDaemonFC's got the facts!Sep 22 05:22
DaemonFCinstant messaging is very deficient on LinuxSep 22 05:22
DaemonFCit is 10 years behindSep 22 05:22
cubezzzwhat's deficient about it?Sep 22 05:22
DaemonFCno video/voice support on popular IM networks mainlySep 22 05:23
twitterSkype is bigger than Facebook.Sep 22 05:23
DaemonFCon Windows Live Messenger, I push a button, it connects, and it worksSep 22 05:23
twittermy imagination must fail meSep 22 05:23
DaemonFCsame with YahooSep 22 05:23
twitterSkype kicks both their buts.Sep 22 05:23
DaemonFCon Linux I may get Skype kind of workingSep 22 05:23
DaemonFCafter two or three hoursSep 22 05:23
twitterJust buy a $140 netbook.  it works out of the boxSep 22 05:24
DaemonFCof figuring out a dozen config files and a thousand arcane device namesSep 22 05:24
DaemonFCit's like slamming your hand in a car door repeatedlySep 22 05:24
DaemonFCit's just painful as all hellSep 22 05:24
twitterThat's the XP way, DaemonFC.  You Windows guys never learn.Sep 22 05:24
DaemonFCWindows just worksSep 22 05:24
wallclimberok, it's past my bedtime...hate to leave you with the noisy children, twitter...lolSep 22 05:25
DaemonFCLinux makes you learn 20 year old config files and arcane device namesSep 22 05:25
twitterlet me try this again -> (09:26:07 PM) twitter: Just buy a $140 netbook.  it works out of the boxSep 22 05:25
DaemonFCand then maybe they've fucked it up with shit like Pulseaudio as wellSep 22 05:25
twitterare you listening TrollFC?Sep 22 05:25
DaemonFCthen it glitches even if you do figure out the restSep 22 05:25
wallclimberDaemon listens to no one...Sep 22 05:25
twitterI use Skype every day.  I bought it on a netbook that worked out of the box.Sep 22 05:25
*wallclimber has quit ("wallclimber wanders off...")Sep 22 05:25
DaemonFCA/V on Linux is an unholy fucking messSep 22 05:25
twitterIt just worked in a way Windows never will.Sep 22 05:25
DaemonFCthere's jsut no polite way to describe itSep 22 05:25
*twitter ignores DaemonFC the mega troll.Sep 22 05:26
twitterSomeone needs to ban him.Sep 22 05:27
DaemonFCfor speaking the truth?Sep 22 05:27
Zilogor because you dont agree with him?Sep 22 05:28
DaemonFCit happens sometimes that I do get banned for thatSep 22 05:28
DaemonFCevery OS has problems that make you want to put your fist through the monitorSep 22 05:28
DaemonFCLinux isn't immune from criticism jsut because it's open sourceSep 22 05:28
cubezzzok, a couple of comments...Sep 22 05:35
cubezzzfirst, Linux isn't even 20 years oldSep 22 05:36
cubezzzsecondly, using ascii text files for configuration seem the most logic and universal waySep 22 05:36
DaemonFCwell, Linus Torvalds criticized GNOME, openly and brutally, because it was no good to him since it didn't do what he neededSep 22 05:36
DaemonFChow is Linux immune from the same type of criticism?Sep 22 05:37
cubezzzDaemonFC, are you referring to the kernel?Sep 22 05:37
DaemonFCor any other piece of software for that matterSep 22 05:37
cubezzzwell, fine don't use it thenSep 22 05:37
DaemonFCif something has a massive implementation gap, then it's funny, comical even, how people like twitter try to lie and say it doesn'tSep 22 05:38
DaemonFCinstead of discuss what needs fixingSep 22 05:38
ZilogNo it appears he was refering to GNOMESep 22 05:38
DaemonFCto those mindsets, Windows can do no right, and Linux can do no wrongSep 22 05:38
DaemonFCfree software projects shit and it smells like cinnamon bunsSep 22 05:39
cubezzzsee, those comments make no sense to meSep 22 05:40
DaemonFCI just find it endlessly frustrating when I come across things that Windows has done for years that I can't do at all on Linux/OS X/most other systemsSep 22 05:40
cubezzzif you don't like GNOME then don't use itSep 22 05:40
DaemonFCand yet those fanboys tell me to work around the problem by using bizarre networks and software that 90% of the world doesn't useSep 22 05:40
cubezzzok, can we at least drop the profanity?Sep 22 05:41
DaemonFCif aMSN is maintained by like 1 guy in his spare time, and supports webcams over Windows Live (no audio yet though), I wonder why these bg professional projects with dozens or hundreds of developers can't even do that muchSep 22 05:42
twitteryes, you can kick ban the profanity.Sep 22 05:42
DaemonFCI say they can and choose not toSep 22 05:42
DaemonFC*bigSep 22 05:42
twitterbefore you know it, there will be all sorts of racist and other talkSep 22 05:42
DaemonFCfree software is as much about manipulating the user as any proprietary software isSep 22 05:42
cubezzzblame the manufacture, don't blame the Linux devsSep 22 05:42
cubezzzcompanies that put everything under NRASep 22 05:43
cubezzzhow can anyone program for something without documentation?Sep 22 05:43
DaemonFCcubezzz, My point was that one guy in his spare time figured out the video system for Windows Live MessengerSep 22 05:43
DaemonFCwhy can't Pidgin or Kopete?Sep 22 05:43
DaemonFCit seems like both of them have been stagnant for nearly 5-6 yearsSep 22 05:44
cubezzzis the software open? Then anyone could copy...Sep 22 05:44
cubezzzis the source code available?Sep 22 05:44
DaemonFCcubezzz, If their stated goal is compatibility with lots of networks that they'll have to reverse engineer, it kind of says right there that they're half assingSep 22 05:44
cubezzzI can't really tell you anything about pidgin or kopete, I've never used themSep 22 05:45
DaemonFCthe fact that dozens of people in 5+ years can't implement voice and videoSep 22 05:45
cubezzzwell then it sounds like they don't have any hardware specsSep 22 05:45
DaemonFCcubezzz, Pidgin is so messed up that most people find it easier to fork their libraries than contribute to the projectSep 22 05:46
DaemonFCthat's where MSN-Pecan came fromSep 22 05:46
cubezzzif the programmers have to reverse engineer things, it can take a long timeSep 22 05:46
DaemonFCif Pidgin ever can do voice and video, I'd imagine it will come from some third party add onSep 22 05:46
DaemonFCjust like MSN-Pecan fixes tons of ongoing WLM-related Pidgin bugsSep 22 05:47
cubezzzI think I did compile kopete actuallySep 22 05:47
DaemonFCit's just kind of anti-climactic, the way a lot of free software projects end upSep 22 05:48
DaemonFCthey have good progress to a certain point, then declare it's "good enough" and never improveSep 22 05:48
DaemonFCPidgin is a prime example of that phenomenonSep 22 05:48
cubezzzwell, I prefer IRC and I don't bother with Skpe and webcams so I'm not a good person to defend kopete and pidginSep 22 05:48
cubezzzused gaim a bitSep 22 05:49
DaemonFCthe only way I'll put Pidgin on someone's system is if they don't use a cam anywaySep 22 05:49
DaemonFCI was working on my mom's neighbor's XP system yesterday and ended up putting Pidgin on itSep 22 05:50
DaemonFCjust because it's an old system with 512 megs of RAM and can't handle lots of heavy software that's loaded all the timeSep 22 05:50
twitterbecause M$ will just break it, that's why.  it's a waste of time if not an invitation to a patent of DMCA lawsuit -> DaemonFC: cubezzz, My point was that one guy in his spare time figured out the video system for Windows Live MessengerSep 22 05:50
DaemonFCtwitter, That's not trueSep 22 05:50
twitterHow many times do I have to tell DaemonFC that Skype works and so do other IMs?Sep 22 05:51
DaemonFCthey'd be well within their rights under US lawSep 22 05:51
twitterbrick wall..Sep 22 05:51
DaemonFCthe Pidgin people that isSep 22 05:51
DaemonFCtwitter, Did I ask you how to use Skype?Sep 22 05:51
twitterno one has to ask, it just worksSep 22 05:51
DaemonFCDid I give you a hint that I am going to use Skype?Sep 22 05:51
DaemonFCmaybe I like using everything else *and* SkypeSep 22 05:51
cubezzzyou have to remember that _some_ people like Linux and GNOME and all that. They like programming stuffSep 22 05:52
twitterno, you seem to want to use M$ crap.Sep 22 05:52
DaemonFCmaybe I don't like to pick and choose what I can get to workSep 22 05:52
cubezzzthat's basically my philosophy on itSep 22 05:52
cubezzzStallman went to a lot of trouble and we all can benefit from that, gcc and and all the other gnu toolsSep 22 05:52
DaemonFCtwitter, 22 05:53
DaemonFCthere you go :)Sep 22 05:53
twitterThe primary obstacle to free software is now software patents.Sep 22 05:53
DaemonFCthe primary obstacle is the "good enough" mentality of projects like PidginSep 22 05:54
twitterall of the tools are in place - free video and audio codecs with excellent compression, free network stacks, plenty of working webcamsSep 22 05:54
DaemonFCthat's my opinionSep 22 05:54
twitteryeah, but you are an idiot or a liar, DaemonFC.Sep 22 05:54
cubezzzwell does Microsoft give out docs for Windows Live Messenger protocols?Sep 22 05:54
DaemonFCcubezzz, Other companies are compatible with WLMSep 22 05:55
DaemonFCincluding voice and videoSep 22 05:55
DaemonFCincluding Apple iChatSep 22 05:55
cubezzzthey could be under NDASep 22 05:55
cubezzznot FOSS though right?Sep 22 05:55
twitterPidgin is supposed to work with MSN.Sep 22 05:55
DaemonFCwell, near as I can tell, they had to reverse engineer everything elseSep 22 05:55
twitterbut I'm sure M$ breaks it.Sep 22 05:55
DaemonFCwhy not just hook into VLC to encode the WMV/WMA stream?Sep 22 05:56
cubezzzI think gaim worked too at some levelSep 22 05:56
DaemonFCthat avoids some nasty potential patent problemsSep 22 05:56
twitteryou might as well try to communicate via OOXML.Sep 22 05:56
cubezzzDaemonFC, it's probably possible to make it workSep 22 05:56
twitterwhy, DeamonFC, do you want WMA?Sep 22 05:56
twitterIt's shit.Sep 22 05:56
DaemonFCit's what Windows Live Messenger usesSep 22 05:56
DaemonFCVLC can encode to it under LinuxSep 22 05:56
twitterwhy do you insist on using shig?Sep 22 05:56
DaemonFCso does ffmpegSep 22 05:57
DaemonFCat least good enough to useSep 22 05:57
twitterthey also do mpeg1Sep 22 05:57
twitterso what?Sep 22 05:57
DaemonFCthe bitstream format for Windows Media codecs has been out there for several years nowSep 22 05:57
twitterwhy not just use theora?Sep 22 05:57
DaemonFCso that's not what's stopping PidginSep 22 05:57
twitterthis really goes nowhere, does it?Sep 22 05:58
cubezzzassuming it's not encryptedSep 22 05:58
twitterbblSep 22 05:58
DaemonFCMicrosoft can't break it without breaking WLM support on a lot of operating systems of theirs that are still in support that can't use the latest versions of WLMSep 22 05:58
DaemonFCso they're safe til at least 2014 I believeSep 22 05:58
DaemonFCthe protocol won't change between now and thenSep 22 05:59
cubezzzwhen was the last time pidgin was updated?Sep 22 05:59
DaemonFCthen potentially til 2017Sep 22 05:59
DaemonFCcause of Vista's lifespanSep 22 05:59
DaemonFCcubezzz, With anything that anyone would notice?Sep 22 06:00
DaemonFCprobably 2004Sep 22 06:00
DaemonFCI agree that GNOME should split off and develop Empathy if they really want to improve over what Pidgin hasSep 22 06:00
DaemonFCbut something tells me that they'll hit the same imaginary wall and we'll end up with Pidgin all over againSep 22 06:01
DaemonFCor maybe not even get that farSep 22 06:01
DaemonFCGalaxium may produce resultsSep 22 06:02
DaemonFCwho knows?Sep 22 06:02
DaemonFCGalaxium had the stated goal of feature parity with every instant messaging protocol they supportedSep 22 06:02
DaemonFCit would be nice if _someone_ came around and properly supported it without half-assing everythingSep 22 06:04
DaemonFCtwitter, What's your almighty and authoritative opinion on why everyone is using Windows Live, Yahoo, and AIM, in that order?Sep 22 06:07
DaemonFCand why the rest of these protocols are fighting for the last 5 usersSep 22 06:07
cubezzzDaemonFC, you forgot freenode :)Sep 22 06:07
twitterI don't know anyone who uses Windows Live.Sep 22 06:07
DaemonFCcubezzz, I'm not really considering IRCSep 22 06:08
twitterBesides one or two trolls.Sep 22 06:08
twitterand they are probably lying.Sep 22 06:08
DaemonFCIRC is a chat protocol, but I wouldn't lump it in with a dedicated IM network with persistent accounts, buddy lists, and advanced featuresSep 22 06:08
DaemonFCtwitter, I have several dozen people on my Windows Live accountSep 22 06:09
DaemonFCit's all I really ever useSep 22 06:09
DaemonFCI merged the few Yahoo contacts I had onto my Windows Live accountSep 22 06:10
twitterI'm surprised you have time to talk to anyone, given how you troll here all day and night.Sep 22 06:10
twitterYour free time must have something to do with the reliability of Windows Live.Sep 22 06:11
DaemonFCI've never had their network go downSep 22 06:13
DaemonFCYahoo does occasionallySep 22 06:13
DaemonFCreally what pissed me off into leaving Yahoo was how bloated and spam-filled their own instant messaging software wasSep 22 06:13
DaemonFCbut Windows Live Messenger can handle Yahoo contacts as wellSep 22 06:14
DaemonFCtwitter, MultitaskingSep 22 06:16
twittermulti trollSep 22 06:16
*ziggyfish has quit (Read error: 145 (Connection timed out))Sep 22 06:46
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schestowitzHmmmm..... why did CEO of ZOHO Corp. just  mail me?Sep 22 07:06
schestowitzThey take cheat shots at ZimbraSep 22 07:06
*DaemonFC` ( has joined #boycottnovellSep 22 07:11
twitterpropaganda vrs teaching 22 07:11
schestowitzKids <3 Big BusinessSep 22 07:12
schestowitz 22 07:13
schestowitz 22 07:18
*DaemonFC has quit (Read error: 145 (Connection timed out))Sep 22 07:19
schestowitz 22 07:26
schestowitz"Sep 22 07:26
schestowitzFLT#2 - Cnet Blogger, Matt AsaySep 22 07:26
schestowitzThe other three well-known community members in on the gag were:Sep 22 07:26
schestowitz* FLT#1 - Columnist & The Fake Steve Jobs, Dan LyonsSep 22 07:26
schestowitz* FLT#3 - OpenSUSE Community Manager, Joe 'Zonker' BrockmeierSep 22 07:26
schestowitz* FLT#4 - Ubuntu Community Manager, Jono BaconSep 22 07:26
schestowitz"Sep 22 07:26
schestowitz Dan Lyons is anti-Linux. THey should not feed himSep 22 07:26
DaemonFC`bloated and huge and 12% slower than last yearSep 22 07:28
DaemonFC`hehSep 22 07:28
*DaemonFC` is now known as DaemonFCSep 22 07:28
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_Hicham_Hi All!Sep 22 07:29
DaemonFCLinux is losing performance faster than Windows in other wordsSep 22 07:29
DaemonFCif it gets 2% slower every 3 months, that's fairly disturbingSep 22 07:30
DaemonFCthat means Linux gets about 8% slower every yearSep 22 07:30
DaemonFCor about 40% slower in 5 yearsSep 22 07:31
DaemonFCto put that in perspective, Vista was only about 10% slower than XP, overallSep 22 07:31
DaemonFCand that represented about 5 years of WindowsSep 22 07:31
DaemonFCso according to that link, Linux is getting slower and more bloated four times faster than Windows B-)Sep 22 07:32
_Hicham_where is the link ?Sep 22 07:33
DaemonFC_Hicham_, 22 07:33
*schestowitz listens to 22 07:41
schestowitzLinux boots fast and works fast with ext4Sep 22 07:41
schestowitzVista is not 10% slower than XPSep 22 07:42
schestowitzIt takes up all th RAM, leading to swapSep 22 07:42
_Hicham_schestowitz : linux kernel can be optimizedSep 22 07:42
_Hicham_optimization doesn't exist with WindowsSep 22 07:43
schestowitzGNU/Linux gets faster over time, based on my experienceSep 22 07:43
schestowitzIt also gets better schedulaersSep 22 07:43
schestowitz*ErsSep 22 07:44
schestowitz (US software firm sentenced for 'trading with the enemy')Sep 22 07:44
schestowitzRidiculousSep 22 07:45
schestowitzThe American population has no problem with CubaSep 22 07:45
schestowitzAnd the US is the only one with the embargo, with nationalist reasonsSep 22 07:45
schestowitzScribd fires back, denies violating copyright 22 07:46
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schestowitzWhy Developers Get Fired 22 08:01
schestowitz "The Ususal Suspects" [sic]Sep 22 08:02
schestowitzWhy don't they proofread and highlight subheadlines?Sep 22 08:02
schestowitz"Jeremy Zawodny is a software engineer at Craigslist"Sep 22 08:03
schestowitzSO that's where he landed after Yahoo!Sep 22 08:03
*_Hicham_ has quit ("Leaving")Sep 22 08:09
trmancohow can it be slower if the latest kernel just got an X performance boost?Sep 22 08:20
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schestowitztrmanco: That's the Reg taking one line from Linus and sensationalising itSep 22 08:29
schestowitzLinux on the desktop has been getting faster for me on the same h/wSep 22 08:29
schestowitzMaybe it's different on servers, but I doubt itSep 22 08:29
schestowitzPhoronic benchmarks show it staying more or less steady in performance over timeSep 22 08:30
schestowitzSearch for kernel comparison in Phoronix and you'll seeSep 22 08:30
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trmancowell, I guess ext4 got slower too, uh?Sep 22 08:40
_Hicham_trmanco : how ?Sep 22 08:40
_Hicham_where did u find that ?Sep 22 08:40
trmancowell, according to some quotes from the articleSep 22 08:41
trmancooh, this doesn't count -> 22 08:42
trmancobut it's good to think like that, actuallySep 22 08:42
trmancowe all win of Linus thinks the kernel is slow and bloatedSep 22 08:43
trmancothey will just make it even more fasterSep 22 08:43
trmancoand more stableSep 22 08:43
schestowitz"slow and bloated" <<- same thing almostSep 22 08:45
schestowitzNot mutually exclusive. Look up benchmarks from Phoronix, you'll see that evidence hardly supports thisSep 22 08:45
schestowitzA command line dictionary for UNIX 22 08:46
*schestowitz finally managed to find the right screwdrivers to open up the Phlishave for replacement batterySep 22 08:47
schestowitzStar Trek Creator's Mac Plus Up For Auction 22 08:50
_Hicham_schestowitz : do u think a big beard will suits u ?Sep 22 08:52
schestowitzPenguins don't grow beardsSep 22 08:53
schestowitz:-pSep 22 08:53
schestowitz 22 08:53
_Hicham_schestowitz : what about RMS ?Sep 22 08:53
schestowitzIt's his symbolSep 22 08:53
schestowitzThat's how people recognise it. For some people it's long hereSep 22 08:54
schestowitzjono had the goatieSep 22 08:54
schestowitzHere's a due who insists Linux has 2% on the desktop... 22 08:54
schestowitzDon't know where he got that 'magic' number, so I can't link to itSep 22 08:55
schestowitzIn some countries Linux is like 10%+Sep 22 08:55
_Hicham_Linux needs more GUI config stuffSep 22 08:59
_Hicham_Gnome-2.28 will be officially released tomorrowSep 22 08:59
trmancomore gui stuff?Sep 22 09:03
_Hicham_trmanco : yes, new users are afraid of command-lineSep 22 09:05
*ziggyfish ( has joined #boycottnovellSep 22 09:16
schestowitzgnome 3.0 looks promisingSep 22 09:18
schestowitzLet's hope it'll be mono-freeSep 22 09:18
schestowitzI'm gonna Twit some new now, be back in 1.5 hours to this chanSep 22 09:18
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] Sign of #FreeSoftware Triumph: Truly #Free Distributions Like #BLAG and #gNewSense Become Pragmatic 22 09:22
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] #IBM Vice President on Why #GNU #Linux is the Desktop's Future http://bit. ...Sep 22 09:26
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] Why #British #Schools Require #GNU #Linux and Not #FogComputing or Proprietary Software 22 09:28
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] #DeviceVM Joins the @LinuxFoundation 22 09:39
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] Preview of #Linux 2.6.32 22 09:43
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] The @LinuxFoundation Covers the #LinuxCon Event 22 09:45
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] KDE4 Keeps Running Ahead with KRunner, Silk; #KDE 3.5.10 Still Deployed by Some ht ...Sep 22 09:47
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] Desktop Environments in #GNU #Linux Offer Many Menu #Options choice is goodSep 22 09:49
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] #SystemRescue ( #GNU #Linux Distribution) in Review 22 09:52
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] The New #Puppy #GNU #Linux (4.3) Gets Moderate Marks 22 09:53
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] Early Review of #Mandriva #Linux 2010 (Release Candidate) 22 09:55
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] #RedHat Share Price Almost Doubled 22 09:56
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] #Canonical Speaks About #Ubuntu #Server Edition 10.04 22 10:00
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] #Linux #Mint #KDE Chooses New Logo 22 10:00
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] Reasons to Attract People to #Ubuntu #GNU #Linux: Popularity, #Environment 22 10:03
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] #Sensia #InternetRadio Runs #Linux , #Kmicro Targets Linux Also 22 10:05
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] #Phones with #FreeSoftware and #Linux Make Gains 22 10:06
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] More #GNU #Linux #Subnotebooks Are Coming Shortly 22 10:11
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] More #GNU #Linux #Subnotebooks Comes to More Children in Pacific Islands #olpc #freedomSep 22 10:13
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-BNc/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] #Zimbra to be Saved from Microsoft's Bartzmer #independenceSep 22 10:14
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] #BigBusiness Chooses #GNU #Linux and #FreeSoftware for Operations 22 10:15
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zoobab6for your quotes collection: 22 10:16
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] Doctoral #Research to Revolve Around #FreeSoftware 22 10:17
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] #OpenOffice .org Opens to Contributors Even More 22 10:19
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] #Mozilla Puts the Turbo On #firefoxSep 22 10:19
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] Global Conference on #OpenSource a Month Away in #Jakarta #foss #mainstreamSep 22 10:21
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] #Wikipedia Cofounder Slams BillyPress for Slamming Wikipedia 22 10:23
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] #PHP #Programming Hits the Top 3 22 10:24
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] #FogComputing Can be Achieved with #FreeSoftware and #Linux 22 10:29
schestowitzzoobab6: interetsing what he says on Mono.....Sep 22 10:30
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] New, Bizarre #Censorship Attempts 22 10:32
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-BNc/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] #PhillipMorris and Gangsters Use #AstroTurf to Shoot Down #Healthcare Sanity 22 10:34
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] Net #Neutrality Protected by #FCC After #Google Influence 22 10:35
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] More Apparent Conflicts of Interest in 'Legal' System and #MAFIAA 22 10:39
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-BNc/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] #Obama Surrenders to More #IntellectualMonopolies 22 10:40
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-BNc/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] #IntellectualMonopolies #Hypocrisy from #LilyAllen #itsnotfairSep 22 10:42
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] Malaysia Applies #IntellectualMonopolies to #Cuisine ...Sep 22 10:44
oiaohmLooks like I have shot the package manager on this debian.  O well running reinstall of everything.Sep 22 10:45
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] #Microsoft -- Already Taking Debt -- Cuts #Kickbacks to #MVPs 22 10:49
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] #Microsoft Slammed for Anti- #Linux Abuse with #SoftwarePatents 22 10:51
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] #Vista 7 So Bad That #Microsoft Needs to Launch Anti- #Linux Push? 22 10:52
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] #IntellectualMonopolies Kill People, Court Apathetic 22 10:54
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] How #IBM Uses #IntellectualMonopolies to Exploit the Little Guy 22 10:55
DaemonFChmmmSep 22 11:05
DaemonFCwell that was interesting..... got a phone call from an ex I haven't seen in over six yearsSep 22 11:05
Diablo-D3yeah?Sep 22 11:07
schestowitz I used BLAG only as an example of a distro that more pragmatists can now use but some people misinterpreted what I wrote.Sep 22 11:11
DaemonFCthere seems to be an awful lot of security problems that are having no effect on Windows 7Sep 22 11:13
DaemonFCBLAG has no 64-bit editionSep 22 11:14
DaemonFChmmm, seems like they do nowSep 22 11:15
DaemonFCyou have to net install it thoughSep 22 11:15
DaemonFCso why use it when it's based on old versions of Fedora?Sep 22 11:16
oiaohmDefine having no effect DaemonFCSep 22 11:19
oiaohmThere have been quite a few secuirty flaws found in Windows 7 so farSep 22 11:19
oiaohmIts another sloppy OS.Sep 22 11:19
DaemonFCoiaohm, I mean security problems in Vista and XP that don't exist in 7Sep 22 11:19
DaemonFCincluding the SMB2 bugSep 22 11:19
oiaohmSMB2 was descovered with Windows 7Sep 22 11:20
DaemonFConly exists in pre-RTM versionsSep 22 11:20
oiaohmNoSep 22 11:20
DaemonFCI'm not counting it because of thatSep 22 11:20
oiaohmThey have fixed 1 or 2 faults.Sep 22 11:20
oiaohmor/ofSep 22 11:20
DaemonFCthere have been a couple serious bugs fixed in the Windows 7 beta and RC buildsSep 22 11:21
oiaohmThe lock Vista and Windows 7 sold due to smb2 bad packet is not fixed yet.Sep 22 11:21
DaemonFCthat's not something to fault them for because they were fixed and finding bugs is what you expect in a betaSep 22 11:21
oiaohmThe question is if it can be fixed.Sep 22 11:21
DaemonFCturning it off is good enoughSep 22 11:21
DaemonFCit's not needed for anythingSep 22 11:22
DaemonFCit's redundantSep 22 11:22
oiaohmPatch to vista also turns it off.Sep 22 11:22
oiaohmSo vista with latest patches no secuirty difference.Sep 22 11:22
oiaohmXP on the other hand faults not fixed.Sep 22 11:22
oiaohmAlso Windows 7 still has the winsock go to god fault.Sep 22 11:24
oiaohmLeaving you with no operational network stack and having to know to go to command line and do a command so it clears.Sep 22 11:25
oiaohmI like to know who was the insane bugger who though saving network stats to disk so they could be reloaded on startup.Sep 22 11:25
oiaohmWould not cause screwups.Sep 22 11:25
oiaohmDaemonFC:  can you really name a valid reason to upgrade for all those will upto date secuirty patches.Sep 22 11:27
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[davidgerard] News of the News is completely broken at the moment, as are all subdomains of Urgent support message in ...Sep 22 11:27
DaemonFCfaster, haven't had it crash on meSep 22 11:28
oiaohmLack of crash not selling point.Sep 22 11:28
oiaohmPeople say that about all new OS's.Sep 22 11:28
oiaohmFaster really.  Benches mostly don't back that DaemonFCSep 22 11:29
DaemonFCvideo games do run betterSep 22 11:29
DaemonFCthe system takes less RAMSep 22 11:29
DaemonFCabout 1/3rd less than VistaSep 22 11:29
oiaohmMostly service removal.Sep 22 11:30
oiaohmMost of the alterations are surface nothing more.Sep 22 11:30
schestowitzHere's DaemonFC's ex: 22 11:31
DaemonFCuhhhm, ewwSep 22 11:31
DaemonFCnoSep 22 11:31
schestowitzYou sure..?Sep 22 11:31
oiaohmvlite used by gamers out performs stock Windows 7 for games.Sep 22 11:32
oiaohmMost gamers are better of waiting for Windows 7 to get a vlite equal.Sep 22 11:32
schestowitzI can't find Linus' talk. 22 11:33
schestowitz 22 11:33
oiaohmMostly because it was not Linus talk he was recently quoted from.Sep 22 11:34
oiaohmit was intels talk schestowitzSep 22 11:34
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DaemonFCschestowitz, My ex is several stone lighter than RMS , a few decades younger, and no Santa Claus beardSep 22 11:36
DaemonFCso yeah, I'm sureSep 22 11:37
schestowitzLinus is from Sweden?? 22 11:39
schestowitzI man, originally?Sep 22 11:39
schestowitz*meanSep 22 11:39
ZiloghelsinkiSep 22 11:40
ZilogI thinkSep 22 11:40
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schestowitzIt's weird seeing the older interviews (CNN): 22 11:45
schestowitzDaemonFC: mutex, watch the videoSep 22 11:46
schestowitzThey say Sweden for some reasonSep 22 11:46
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*DaemonFC` is now known as DaemonFCSep 22 11:46
ZilogRoy the are saying the sweedish translation of his name!, "born December 28, 1969 in Helsinki, Finland)"Sep 22 11:49
oiaohmLinus does not really care how his name is said.   Every country early on he let the presentor say his name how ever it works.Sep 22 11:51
schestowitzHe cares about how the kernel name is pronouncedSep 22 12:07
schestowitzAnd about Sweden, that first video says he's from Sweden and studies in HelsinkiSep 22 12:07
schestowitzBut his dad is Finnish and spent time in Russia as a communist(ish) activistSep 22 12:08
DaemonFChehSep 22 12:08
DaemonFCironicSep 22 12:08
oiaohmYes Linus family is interesting.Sep 22 12:09
oiaohmLinus is most likely the black sheep has not been thrown in jail for anything.Sep 22 12:09
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-BNc/#boycottnovell-[trmanco] Porreiro, uma gajo quer-se candidatar a emprego mas o site nao dá :|Sep 22 12:20
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[trmanco] Version Information: Microsoft .NET Framework Version:1.1.4322.2407; ASP.NET Version:1.1.4322.2407Sep 22 12:20
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[trmanco] Exception Details: System.ArgumentOutOfRangeException: Length cannot be less than zero. Parameter name: lengthSep 22 12:21
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[trmanco] Isto no site da Sonae... se me quiserem contratar eu arranjo o site :-PSep 22 12:22
_Hicham_senior oiaohmSep 22 12:23
DaemonFC"They're the fastest CPUs on the market and they're the cheapest too. That's not something I'm going to argue with." -Linus Torvalds on x86Sep 22 12:25
schestowitzKernel Walkthrough 22 12:25
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oiaohmDaemonFC: time changes.Sep 22 12:29
oiaohmCurrently for power vs performance arm chips have it.Sep 22 12:29
oiaohmAt 2 ghz real clock speed arm is not far behind x86.Sep 22 12:30
DaemonFCyeah, ARM loses on cost, on competition, on performance potential, and on compatibility with most software out thereSep 22 12:31
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[trmanco] Mas que raio quer isto dizer :-P 22 12:31
DaemonFCI'm not going to say "never" with 100% certainty, but I'm 99% sure that ARM will never amount to any more than a niche marketSep 22 12:31
DaemonFCmostly on devicesSep 22 12:32
DaemonFCgadgetsSep 22 12:32
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DaemonFCthe most popular also-ran, the PPC, only got about 4% of the desktop marketSep 22 12:33
DaemonFCand that's with every Mac coming with oneSep 22 12:33
DaemonFCx86 is still the commodity hardware, the de facto standardSep 22 12:33
DaemonFCthat's mostly because with Windows and Mac, you've got over 95% of the market that can't use anything elseSep 22 12:34
oiaohmArm may end up the server market DaemonFCSep 22 12:34
DaemonFCand incompatible architectures would also sour the deal for a lot of Linux users because Wine and commercial software packages wouldn't runSep 22 12:34
oiaohmFew server farms are looking at it for bang vs buck.Sep 22 12:34
DaemonFCthe standard chip will be x86 as long as Windows and OS X depend on themSep 22 12:35
oiaohmI know a lot of people who would buy arms for portables.Sep 22 12:35
oiaohmAnd not care about windows apps at all.  Since that is what the desktop is for.Sep 22 12:35
DaemonFCwhich means that x86 Linux will continue to be the most popular and used by farSep 22 12:35
oiaohmBattery life beats applications.Sep 22 12:35
DaemonFCjust because the x86 is the hardware that's out there at reasonable costsSep 22 12:36
oiaohmDefine resonable.Sep 22 12:36
DaemonFCand because it can still run Windows apps through WineSep 22 12:36
oiaohmReally defined resonable.Sep 22 12:36
oiaohm8 times the price of arm.Sep 22 12:36
DaemonFCoiaohm, like 39% of Linux users depend n WineSep 22 12:36
DaemonFCso you're talking a huge chunk that can't go to ARMSep 22 12:36
oiaohmNot really.Sep 22 12:37
oiaohmDo they need windows applications on all there machines DaemonFCSep 22 12:37
oiaohmAnswer no.Sep 22 12:37
DaemonFCadding a percent or two to Linux wouldn't make Windows less influential in itselfSep 22 12:37
DaemonFCno more than Firefox has encouraged websites to not design for IE so farSep 22 12:38
oiaohmAt 2 ghz times 8 cores there is even a chance that qemu would be fast enough to run wine.Sep 22 12:38
oiaohmEven that the cpu core is wrong.Sep 22 12:39
oiaohmAt 3 ghz for non gamers x86 would no longer be important.Sep 22 12:39
oiaohmx86 lock most likely will mean nothing.Sep 22 12:40
oiaohmPeople always forget wine does not need a real x86 core.Sep 22 12:41
oiaohmIt needs either a real x86 core or the means for qemu to run fast enough.Sep 22 12:41
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] Alan Cox in 2002: “Microsoft Has Publicly Stated That it Has Patents on Critical Parts of .NET and Will Enforce Them” 22 12:41
oiaohmI really like to know where you get the 40 percent from.Sep 22 12:43
oiaohmLot of Linux users can live quite happly without wine.  Using wine for windows applciations is a pain in but native Linux is on adverage less painful.Sep 22 12:43
MinceR98% of statistics are made up on the spotSep 22 12:44
oiaohmThe correct percentage is about 10 percent.Sep 22 12:44
oiaohmI know that from wine from support numbers compared to the likes of ubuntu numbers accross the board.Sep 22 12:45
oiaohmAnd about most of that is game releated.Sep 22 12:45
oiaohmNot businessSep 22 12:46
oiaohmAlso I know most people use wine as they are converting over until they learn the native replacements.Sep 22 12:47
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oiaohmSo unless Linux numbers are growing like the bat out of hell 39% is not possiable.Sep 22 12:48
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-BNc/#boycottnovell-[davidgerard] RT @dougclow The NYT say Amazon is nearly the Wal-Mart of the web - they're sure acting like it 22 13:06
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[popey] Casting my vote in the Ubuntu Community Council election :)Sep 22 13:14
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schestowitzkdenlive is REALLY niceSep 22 13:20
schestowitzGood GUI and allSep 22 13:20
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] #kdenlive is a very impressive piece of software. I'm using it right now to transcode. #kde #gnuSep 22 13:21
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-BNc/#boycottnovell-[zoobab] Lee Hollaar and software is not math, thus patentable: 22 13:27
oiaohmTiming is so good I was trying to remember the name of the program that I used for video editing I nuked schestowitzSep 22 13:34
oiaohmThanks.Sep 22 13:34
_Hicham_oiaohm : cinelerraSep 22 13:35
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oiaohmcinelerra I don't use.  I move between Blenders built in video editor and kdenlive.  kdenlive when I don't need effect blender can do more than cinelerra when it setup.Sep 22 13:42
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[davidgerard] You know how you can't buy Miracleman anywhere on the face of the earth? Anon delivers: 22 13:43
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] If Vista 7 is as Good as Microsoft Says, Then Why is Microsoft Actively Attacking GNU/Linux? 22 13:47
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] #Patents Roundup: #IntellectualMonopolies Under Attack, #IBM and Patent Trolls Get Miserable 22 14:22
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[davidgerard] NSFW, covered in pr0n ads, but 4chanarchive has a thread with every goddamn comic you could never get downloadable 22 14:22
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[davidgerard] according to Oklahoma Republicans, all pornography is homosexual whew, glad that's been cleared up. p.s. COCK.Sep 22 14:25
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[popey] New Official Ubuntu PPA for Tomboy, with 1.0.0 for Jaunty, please test! 22 14:31
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-BNc/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] #Microsoft Slashes Benefits to Its Covert Partners 22 15:02
ZilogDo they mean it's only porn if it's homosexual ?? LOL, (making everything else _NOT_ porn)Sep 22 15:15
Diablo-D3I have no porn on my storage array then.Sep 22 15:15
ZilogSame here, I was thinking the same, im trying to work out what ive been looking at for all these years :DSep 22 15:16
ZilogMust be ok thenSep 22 15:16
Diablo-D3I should rename my array's mount tooSep 22 15:17
Diablo-D3apparently /porn is no longer validSep 22 15:17
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Zilogit's so if you live in Ok then when you're strapped to the lie detector as asked if you watch porn they can "honestly" say no.Sep 22 15:18
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Zilogafter 30 years in the electronics and computer industry, on the "net" since the bbs's before the WWW, I made my very first online purchase just last week :)Sep 22 15:25
schestowitzwallclimber: the Groklaw post is now publicSep 22 15:26
schestowitzInteresting indeedSep 22 15:26
wallclimberyes, it certainly is!Sep 22 15:26
Zilogis that the one about patents on math/software ?Sep 22 15:27
wallclimberZilog, go read it and you'll know what it's about.Sep 22 15:30
schestowitzwallclimber: but I've always assumed it works like that. You just need to familiarise self with the 'neighbourhood'Sep 22 15:30
schestowitzMicrosoft works in groups with journos and profs whom it likes to use for helpSep 22 15:30
schestowitzWe did the journalists list recentlySep 22 15:30
schestowitzThat 'Alexander' dude is trolling me tooSep 22 15:31
wallclimberyes, i've noticed :)Sep 22 15:31
schestowitzFor yearsSep 22 15:31
schestowitzI think he used to work for IBM, but that's another storySep 22 15:31
schestowitzHe's also a SCO and Wallace fanSep 22 15:31
schestowitzThe whole anti-GPL clubSep 22 15:31
schestowitzFinding the connections to Microsoft is now getting easierSep 22 15:32
schestowitzLike MOG and SCOSep 22 15:32
schestowitzAnd then MOG and MSFT (and W-E)Sep 22 15:32
schestowitzThey share the same pee pool.Sep 22 15:32
wallclimberit's good that it's all being documented publically.Sep 22 15:32
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Zilogwallclimber, yes I read it earlier, prompted me to do some research, for the challenge Im trying to build a case for the affirmative, that being that software is just math, but it's not easy. suggestions welcome.Sep 22 15:35
wallclimberZilog, this link is a good place to start, it's a huge list of resources, plus the comments on many of the posts about software patents are very very helpful.Sep 22 15:39
wallclimber 22 15:39
Zilogcool, thanksSep 22 15:39
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] #Windows Compromises #Bank Accounts While M-Com and #Microsoft Launch Mobile #Banking Service 22 15:48
schestowitzSun is losing $100 million a month 22 15:49
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[davidgerard] Revitalise US sport: make it a ladder of divisions, like European football 22 15:49
schestowitzwallclimber: it's _mutex_ BTWSep 22 15:49
schestowitzHe's like SCO... no matter the amount of plonking, it keeps arising from somewhereSep 22 15:50
wallclimberYes, i knew that, he was on here last night.Sep 22 15:50
wallclimbereasy to spot him.Sep 22 15:50
wallclimberFigured that link to GL's patent page would keep him busy for a while :)Sep 22 15:52
schestowitzFinally there's a company selling Vista-capable PCs. 22 15:52
Zilogabout 3 months :)Sep 22 15:53
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[scientes] APT reimplementation Cupt aims at even more maintainability of #Debian GNU/ #Linux packages 22 15:53
schestowitz 22 15:54
schestowitz 22 15:54
schestowitzMaybe he leaves /them/ alone, at leastSep 22 15:54
wallclimberinteresting...Sep 22 15:55
schestowitzMicrosoft's new partner ComScore is now congratulating Microsoft -- againSep 22 15:56
schestowitzThis was SO predictableSep 22 15:56
schestowitzAnd the MSBBC covers itSep 22 15:56
schestowitz 22 15:56
schestowitzWow. 0.4% gain, claims Microsoft partnerSep 22 15:56
wallclimberi just about spit my morning coffee out yesterday morning reading about Gates giving Gates an award...sheesh.Sep 22 15:58
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[davidgerard] RT @ciphergoth But then, we knew the OK GOP are crazy - their gay-obsessed platform must be read to be believed 22 15:58
schestowitzBBC has another bias new report: 22 15:59
schestowitzIt gives a voice only to pro-MAFIAA artistsSep 22 15:59
schestowitzNot to those opposing itSep 22 16:00
schestowitzThe BBC is in the media industry also, so the bias it to be expectedSep 22 16:00
wallclimberHey, only criminals oppose the MAFIAA, right? :)Sep 22 16:00
schestowitzYesSep 22 16:00
schestowitzBas evil criminalsSep 22 16:00
schestowitzLike JammieSep 22 16:00
wallclimberso there can't possibly be a valid opposing viewpoint.Sep 22 16:01
schestowitzThose pirates will rape our kids and plunder with gleeSep 22 16:01
schestowitzwallclimber: noSep 22 16:01
wallclimberyar!  :)Sep 22 16:01
schestowitzIt's already decidedSep 22 16:01
schestowitzI thought that law was supposed to serve voters' interestsSep 22 16:02
schestowitzInstead they get indoctrinated to foolishly 'like' what they are taught by big corps is good for themSep 22 16:02
wallclimberyes, they serve voter's interests...for lunch.Sep 22 16:02
schestowitzFortunately, enlightening views are being passed now via the NetSep 22 16:02
schestowitzOBAMAA is keen on silencing blogs -- or rather -- he riricules themSep 22 16:03
wallclimberthat's why they are working soooo hard to squelch the Net.Sep 22 16:03
schestowitzShame on him. It's blogs that put him in the white house, among other thingsSep 22 16:03
schestowitzBiden and OBAMAA have filled the DoJ with former RIAA lawyersSep 22 16:03
Diablo-D3holy crap schestowitzSep 22 16:03
schestowitzThis was so predictable given Biden's backgroundSep 22 16:03
Diablo-D3tone it down a bitSep 22 16:03
schestowitzIn whose favour?Sep 22 16:04
schestowitzObama disappoints, stillSep 22 16:04
schestowitzNot as bad as McBush would have been, but still...Sep 22 16:04
schestowitzPeople could pressure him moreSep 22 16:04
schestowitzLook at  healthcareSep 22 16:04
schestowitzhe allowed AstroTurfing to influence his decisionSep 22 16:04
schestowitzSo he'll let hundreds of thousands of good Americans die now so that fat cats can monetise this deathSep 22 16:05
wallclimberwell, i don't agree with you on all of that.Sep 22 16:06
Diablo-D3roy has jumped off the deep end againSep 22 16:06
schestowitzHe strengthens PATRIOT. He lied about it.Sep 22 16:06
twitterwallclimber must have insurance ....Sep 22 16:07
schestowitzwallclimber: the healthcare astroturf is realSep 22 16:07
schestowitzIt got exposedSep 22 16:07
schestowitzThere is a moral issue here (and morTal), not just fianncialSep 22 16:07
wallclimberno, wallclimber does not have insurance. i haven't had health ins for over 15 yearsSep 22 16:07
schestowitzOver 40% of US citizens have no isuranceSep 22 16:08
twitterthen you must live in a state with a good charity hospitalSep 22 16:08
twitterinsurance, as it is in the US, is a fraudSep 22 16:08
wallclimberi am in the unfortunate situation of being a part of the population that insurance companies don't like to insure.Sep 22 16:08
twitterthen surely, you must see that there's a real problem.Sep 22 16:09
wallclimberof course i see a real problem, don't be silly.Sep 22 16:09
schestowitz:-)Sep 22 16:09
twitterdo you think the problem is being addressed properly?Sep 22 16:09
twitteror do you realize that no real change is on the way.Sep 22 16:09
twitterI'm with Kucinich on health care.Sep 22 16:10
twitterthe US lets it's poor and weak members simply die.Sep 22 16:10
schestowitz"Meg Whitman, the ex-boss of eBay, has confirmed her bid to replace Arnold Schwarzenegger as governor of California." 22 16:10
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[davidgerard] EU Open Internet petition HT @glynmoodySep 22 16:10
*schestowitz liks Kucinich's viewsSep 22 16:10
wallclimberi NEVER believed that anything would change except the faces in the white house.Sep 22 16:10
schestowitz /half/ white houseSep 22 16:11
Diablo-D3ron paul > *Sep 22 16:11
twitterwell then, you agree with what Roy said.  :)Sep 22 16:11
wallclimberroy, that's not a comment i ever expected to see from you...Sep 22 16:11
schestowitzHis brother seems inarticulateSep 22 16:11
schestowitzwallclimber: I don't think it's really racistSep 22 16:12
schestowitzI thought about it before commentingSep 22 16:12
Zilogwallclimber, agreed.Sep 22 16:12
schestowitzIt implies that things change for the betterSep 22 16:12
twitterhmmm, gotta go.Sep 22 16:13
schestowitzALthough the Republicans did the same -- something unimaginable some decades agoSep 22 16:13
*twitter has quit ("Leaving.")Sep 22 16:13
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[davidgerard] It's a world of w0rng that I want one now @illdrinn, if they ever come to Sydney ...Sep 22 16:13
wallclimberwell, i guess i need to stop commenting when zilog agrees with me.Sep 22 16:14
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schestowitzwallclimber: he does this all the timeSep 22 16:14
schestowitzAny opportunity to jump on to smear usSep 22 16:14
schestowitzDone that before with like 10-20 other nymsSep 22 16:14
schestowitzAnyway, the white house can cause the world a lot of grief when it's truly just controlled by the same people like KissingerSep 22 16:15
schestowitzHe's _still_ aroundSep 22 16:15
schestowitzThew Democrats put him back in a position of influenceSep 22 16:15
schestowitzIt affects many non-US citizens  as South American, for instance, found outSep 22 16:16
schestowitzTwitter-based mafia game irritates world+dog < >Sep 22 16:16
schestowitzI fell a victim to it ^^^Sep 22 16:16
Zilogwhat do I do Roy, Agree with someone other then you sometimes ? I found what you said repugnent, but worse you leave youself way open with quips like that.Sep 22 16:16
schestowitzThey should be sued or something those Twitter trashersSep 22 16:16
schestowitzGoldman Sachs predicts IT spending rise < >Sep 22 16:17
schestowitzGoldman Sachs is still not being investoigated.Sep 22 16:17
*wallclimber has quit ("wallclimber wanders off...")Sep 22 16:18
schestowitzMaking jokes in text is bound to be misintepreted anyway. I should have added the sarcasm tagSep 22 16:19
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[popey] Hmm,been out of the house.Lots of help windows open.I suspect a small person has been stabbing F1.Must lock when away from keyboard!Sep 22 16:20
*fewa (n=fewa@unaffiliated/fewa) has left #boycottnovellSep 22 16:25
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*schestowitz gives channel operator status to phIRCeSep 22 17:02
trmancoI wonder if it can last very long online :-PSep 22 17:03
schestowitzDoesn't matterSep 22 17:03
trmanco!kick phIRCeSep 22 17:03
*phIRCe has kicked phIRCe from #boycottnovell (Don't take this personally!)Sep 22 17:03
*phIRCe ( has joined #boycottnovellSep 22 17:03
phIRCeHow dare you kick me!Sep 22 17:03
trmanco:)Sep 22 17:03
*schestowitz gives channel operator status to phIRCeSep 22 17:03
trmancoyou can also start it through apacheSep 22 17:04
trmancoyou can hit the url and it will loadSep 22 17:04
schestowitz "Not impressed by Lotus Symphony, but thanks for ODF support and the Linux version anyways... !linux !symphony"Sep 22 17:04
schestowitzIBM is too proud to use OOo internallySep 22 17:04
schestowitzThey made their own versionSep 22 17:04
trmancoafter a while just leave the page and it won't die until the server dies or you call a quit on itSep 22 17:04
*schestowitz gives channel operator status to trmancoSep 22 17:05
schestowitzBNc uses PerlSep 22 17:05
trmancoI could also fetch twitter stuffSep 22 17:06
trmancobut I just didn't implement it yetSep 22 17:06
schestowitzMaybe do identi.caSep 22 17:06
schestowitzThough I could do that with twitfolk somehowSep 22 17:06
schestowitzAnyway, back l8erSep 22 17:06
trmancowhooSep 22 17:10
trmancoit didn't die yetSep 22 17:10
trmancotestSep 22 17:17
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*jono has quit ("Later, Skater")Sep 22 17:50
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[scientes] @davidgerard even @nytimesSep 22 18:05
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[scientes] #PewResearch study: Public perception of #MassMedia accuracy reaches two decade low 63% say news generally inaccurate 22 18:13
trmancostill rolling :DSep 22 18:17
trmancodid any one see the bot's notice?Sep 22 18:30
*_goblin ( has joined #boycottnovellSep 22 18:36
trmancoI can't figure out how to send the ctpc version to somebody when requested :|Sep 22 18:46
trmancomy "implementation" doesn't follow the standard :|Sep 22 18:46
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Omar87Hi all.Sep 22 18:49
trmancoheySep 22 18:49
_goblinhiSep 22 18:52
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[omar_s_hafez] listening to Green to Black by Rebelution - Awesome song!!Sep 22 19:07
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schestowitzIntresting: 22 19:22
schestowitzHi, _goblinSep 22 19:22
schestowitztrmanco: 22 19:27
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trmancoschestowitz: yeahSep 22 19:30
trmancogreat siteSep 22 19:30
trmancobtwSep 22 19:30
trmancoI'm impressed, the bot is still alive :)Sep 22 19:32
schestowitzFollowing Your GPS Over A Cliff Is No Excuse For Bad Driving 22 19:32
schestowitztrmanco: they link to use a lotSep 22 19:32
trmancocoolSep 22 19:33
schestowitzOpen Mania though it the 'Big' site... we never get cited by themSep 22 19:33
trmancohehSep 22 19:33
schestowitzLoco ManiaSep 22 19:33
schestowitzKentucky Poker Case Heads to State’s Supreme Court 22 19:34
schestowitz Software Freedom Day Transcript?Sep 22 19:38
schestowitz"I am hoping a compromise can be found between advancement and Linux's historical qualities." 22 19:40
schestowitztrmanco: does phIRCe acts as a language policeman?Sep 22 19:40
schestowitz*actSep 22 19:40
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-BNc/#boycottnovell-[davidgerard] do you have the mental aptitude to program? 22 19:43
trmancoschestowitz: yesSep 22 19:45
trmancotry it :-PSep 22 19:45
trmancobut it doesn't have many wordsSep 22 19:45
schestowitzPeople with boats... what utter pollution for vanity...... 22 19:46
trmanco!testSep 22 19:46
trmanco!test oSep 22 19:46
phIRCeNot a valid command!Sep 22 19:46
schestowitzLOLSep 22 19:46
trmancojust testing to see if it was aliveSep 22 19:47
trmancoI wonder how well this can handle 30 lines :|Sep 22 19:47
schestowitz 22 19:47
*fewa_ has quit (Read error: 101 (Network is unreachable))Sep 22 19:47
*trmanco checks mem and cpu %Sep 22 19:47
schestowitzkde4 has great meters for thisSep 22 19:48
schestowitzksystguard is improvedSep 22 19:48
schestowitzAlbeit simplified too much for my likingSep 22 19:48
trmancoI use htopSep 22 19:48
schestowitzThe old style ksysguard gave more technical detailsSep 22 19:48
trmancoksysguard still missed the whole monitor panel thingSep 22 19:48
trmancoit needs more tabsSep 22 19:48
schestowitzThe panel widgets have  a monitor that does scaling and shows CPU usage for each core even. Very nice.Sep 22 19:48
*fewa has quit (Read error: 101 (Network is unreachable))Sep 22 19:48
schestowitztrmanco: there are probaly old style ones tooSep 22 19:49
schestowitzI think they simplified it on purposeSep 22 19:49
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trmancohmmSep 22 19:49
schestowitzIn KDE 4.0.0 they showed an SVG-0enabled ksysguardSep 22 19:49
schestowitzIt looked goodSep 22 19:49
schestowitzI remember the days when you had to ctrl+alt+esc to kill bad windowsSep 22 19:50
schestowitzor use the other means of courseSep 22 19:50
schestowitzNow it's smart like gnomeSep 22 19:50
trmancothe bot is using 0.5 MB of ram !!!!11!!Sep 22 19:50
phIRCeNot a valid command!Sep 22 19:50
schestowitzIf the window does not respond it prompts to terminate itSep 22 19:50
trmancoLOLSep 22 19:50
schestowitzUbuntu 4.10 was the first tkme I saw thidSep 22 19:50
trmancoit's ctrl+alt+delSep 22 19:50
schestowitztwitfolk uses 4.5 MBSep 22 19:51
trmancotest!Sep 22 19:51
schestowitzLots of CPAN module of PerlSep 22 19:51
trmancotest !Sep 22 19:51
phIRCeNot a valid command!Sep 22 19:51
schestowitz*modulesSep 22 19:51
trmanco:|Sep 22 19:51
schestowitzI had to compile and install them all manually, but it's a one-time thingSep 22 19:51
schestowitzI listened to Randall Scwartz on Perl this morning. Very interesting.Sep 22 19:51
schestowitz*ChwaSep 22 19:51
trmanco0.6 mbSep 22 19:52
trmancoI wonder when is zend optimizer going to kick in. hehSep 22 19:52
schestowitz LD Port Report 1.12 update aka the Host and MAC Reporting tool 22 19:52
trmancocoolSep 22 19:52
schestowitzI've come to realise that anti-Linux propagandists have become patheticSep 22 19:52
trmancowent back to 0.5 mbSep 22 19:52
schestowitzI remember it some years back when they had some ammo leftSep 22 19:52
schestowitzNow they have Vista vs KDE4Sep 22 19:52
schestowitzThe whole "people need Windows to run their apps" thing went down the toiletSep 22 19:53
schestowitzVista 7 will need to run XP VM to just run old apps, and that too can't last forever. THey can't carry the whole of XP as compat' layer for so long, it's also a security hazardSep 22 19:54
schestowitzDoes Size Matter? Picking a Sane Password Policy 22 19:54
trmancoI out to make the bot fetch link titles :-PSep 22 19:54
trmancoought*Sep 22 19:54
schestowitzOK, i'm getting tried of Bing-sponsored Bishop speaking about _US_ market share as though it's global. Microsoft fools everyone by only showing some numbers from a business partner that measures things in the most friendly population (to Microsoft)Sep 22 19:56
schestowitzLinux Lands on Panasonic Toughbooks Cool.......Sep 22 19:57
trmanco!kick trmancoSep 22 19:58
*phIRCe has kicked trmanco from #boycottnovell (Don't take this personally!)Sep 22 19:58
*trmanco ( has joined #boycottnovellSep 22 19:58
trmanco!op trmancoSep 22 19:58
*phIRCe gives channel operator status to trmancoSep 22 19:58
trmancohehSep 22 19:58
*trmanco is now known as trmanco_Sep 22 20:00
trmanco_!deop trmanco_Sep 22 20:00
trmanco_hahaSep 22 20:00
trmanco_[20:02] [Notice] -phIRCe- You are not allowed to control me!Sep 22 20:00
*trmanco_ is now known as trmancoSep 22 20:00
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schestowitzIt's like watching a men and his stubborn old mule doing a power play. "Sit, bot, sit!!!"Sep 22 20:08
schestowitz*man...Sep 22 20:08
schestowitzWinMob beaten by the mob 22 20:08
*DaemonFC (i=Ryan@ has joined #boycottnovellSep 22 20:16
DaemonFCI finally got ahold of someone at Comcast that knew what was going onSep 22 20:17
MinceRhi to you tooSep 22 20:17
DaemonFCaccording to him, when I max out my bandwidth, sometimes the modem will try to switch channels and that causes a resetSep 22 20:18
DaemonFChe said that will be fixed by NovemberSep 22 20:18
DaemonFCthe network is being upgraded to DOCSIS 3.0 and they're purging analog channels from their lineupSep 22 20:19
schestowitzBandwidth never runs outSep 22 20:19
schestowitzIt's like saying that electricity on the wires is limitedSep 22 20:20
*jono has quit ("Later, Skater")Sep 22 20:20
DaemonFCtheir network capacity does have a limitSep 22 20:20
schestowitzYes, that's when they get more fibreSep 22 20:21
schestowitzAre they broke?Sep 22 20:21
schestowitzOr enjoying a duopoly?Sep 22 20:21
schestowitzThey should adjust to users' (customers') needsSep 22 20:21
schestowitzNot the other way aroundSep 22 20:21
trmancoactuallySep 22 20:21
schestowitzElse it's indicative of a market which is not competitive and stagnatesSep 22 20:21
trmancoelectricity has it's limitsSep 22 20:22
schestowitzBut high-quality video is a real drainerSep 22 20:22
trmanco:-pSep 22 20:22
schestowitztrmanco: we get more from the SunSep 22 20:22
schestowitzEarth's problem is not energySep 22 20:22
schestowitzWe have too much of it, not just in a form we can process proprlySep 22 20:22
trmancoI mean, wires have limitsSep 22 20:22
schestowitzSome is "too expensive" to useSep 22 20:22
trmancothe sun is greatSep 22 20:22
trmancothe sun is what heats up the water here at homeSep 22 20:23
schestowitzCapture sun versus dead animals underground (biological matrial)Sep 22 20:23
trmancoon a sunny day thoughSep 22 20:23
schestowitztrmanco: yes, good useSep 22 20:23
schestowitzIn Britain it's gasSep 22 20:23
trmancoin the winter, it's no good :|Sep 22 20:23
trmancobut better than nothingSep 22 20:23
schestowitzElectricity is popular too, esp. in other placesSep 22 20:23
schestowitzThermal-solar panel are better where there is more light and higher energy pricesSep 22 20:24
trmancoyeah, in Canada it's gas or electricity tooSep 22 20:24
DaemonFCschestowitz, This town is pretty backwardsSep 22 20:24
schestowitz 22 20:24
DaemonFCI can definitely see why Fort Wayne got the upgrades firstSep 22 20:24
schestowitzDaemonFC: well, they have you !Sep 22 20:25
*Lns has quit ("Φ")Sep 22 20:25
DaemonFCI'm saying there's not many customers in this town compared to Fort Wayne or IndianapolisSep 22 20:25
DaemonFCthere's only about 18,000 people hereSep 22 20:25
schestowitzQuirky streaming of videos of a symptom of intolerable bandwidthSep 22 20:25
schestowitzStill, better than 14k baudSep 22 20:26
DaemonFCthere's about 350,000 in Ft. Wayne and about 1.5 million in IndianapolisSep 22 20:26
DaemonFCthere's about a third of Indiana's population in the two largest citiesSep 22 20:26
schestowitzLinux gets its cat: 22 20:27
DaemonFCwouldn't you prioritize them for the upgrades?Sep 22 20:27
schestowitzUS broadband lagsSep 22 20:27
schestowitzIf the news is correctSep 22 20:27
schestowitzThe Asia countries surge aheadSep 22 20:27
schestowitzSingapore, Korea, Taiwan, tec.Sep 22 20:27
schestowitz*etcSep 22 20:28
schestowitz10GBpSSep 22 20:28
DaemonFCI think my connection is pretty fast overallSep 22 20:28
DaemonFCdefinitely a lot better than just a few years agoSep 22 20:29
schestowitzWell, they already make most of our computers, sometimes but not always under the brands of Western nations. That will change as they acquire debt-saddled former giants like RCASep 22 20:29
DaemonFCschestowitz, RCA does not existSep 22 20:29
DaemonFCthey haven't since the early 90sSep 22 20:29
*schestowitz has been on 100MB/sec since 2000Sep 22 20:29
fewawowsersSep 22 20:29
fewaI want thatSep 22 20:29
schestowitzDaemonFC: I knowSep 22 20:29
schestowitzI said "like"Sep 22 20:30
fewayou know good cheap colo or VPS?Sep 22 20:30
DaemonFCschestowitz, YOu refer to Thomson Consumer ElectronicsSep 22 20:30
DaemonFCa patent troll that ate RCASep 22 20:30
schestowitzBut I bought an RCA tuner in 1998 in FLSep 22 20:30
DaemonFCschestowitz, My dad is pissed because Thomson has been using the patents he got while he worked for RCASep 22 20:30
DaemonFCto commit extortion of other companiesSep 22 20:31
schestowitzI see....Sep 22 20:31
schestowitzIsn't this hidden?Sep 22 20:31
schestowitzCompanies come with piles of papers to extort?Sep 22 20:31
DaemonFCnot as well as they would likeSep 22 20:31
fewaI've always thought residential bandwidth should come up and serveres and desktops should be indistinguishableSep 22 20:31
DaemonFChe still knows people there and hears about what they're doingSep 22 20:31
fewabut there is so much discriminationSep 22 20:32
DaemonFChe worked there from 1976 to 2001Sep 22 20:32
fewaVerizizon blocks 80 incoming and 25 outgoingSep 22 20:32
fewaetc, etcSep 22 20:32
fewamore down than upSep 22 20:32
fewathe strong desire to turn people into consumers, not producersSep 22 20:32
DaemonFCschestowitz, Microsoft is trying to move copies of Windows Home ServerSep 22 20:32
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[trmanco] Windows Snacks: 22 20:32
DaemonFCby bundling them in Newegg and Tiger Direct dealsSep 22 20:32
DaemonFCthis Netgear router is free with promo code if you buy it with Windows Home Server :PSep 22 20:33
schestowitztrmanco: would you eat those?Sep 22 20:35
schestowitzThere coule be viruses.Sep 22 20:35
trmanconoSep 22 20:35
trmanconot really a big fan of "junk food"Sep 22 20:35
schestowitzI don't trust Windows on my deskSep 22 20:35
schestowitzI'm not ready to trust it with my dining tableSep 22 20:35
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[scientes] RT @trmanco Windows Snacks: Ingredients: Corn, vegetable Oil, Salt, Cheese Flavor, Conflicker, SasserSep 22 20:37
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[scientes] RT @trmanco #Windows Snacks: Ingredients: Corn, vegetable Oil, Salt, Cheese Flavor, Conflicker, SasserSep 22 20:38
trmancoweirdSep 22 20:39
MinceR:DSep 22 20:39
schestowitz*LOL*Sep 22 20:41
*ziggyfish has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out))Sep 22 20:41
schestowitzReg Trolls: Ubuntu's Lucid Lynx sprays sweet perfume at freeloaders < >Sep 22 20:42
schestowitz"freeloaders"Sep 22 20:42
schestowitzKelly..Sep 22 20:43
schestowitzMake Compiz Run More Smoothly on Linux Desktops < >Sep 22 20:43
*ziggyfish ( has joined #boycottnovellSep 22 20:43
schestowitzCompiz? wotz dat? KDE4 has these 'things' in the menusSep 22 20:44
DaemonFClmaoSep 22 20:45
DaemonFCsprays freeloadersSep 22 20:45
DaemonFCschestowitz, Compiz is like the white trash second cousin of KWin's compositor in my opinionSep 22 20:45
DaemonFCCompiz has never worked quite right, especially when you run Windows games in WineSep 22 20:46
DaemonFCI see a lot of people complain of thatSep 22 20:46
DaemonFCKWin has no such problemsSep 22 20:46
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] RT @scientes @trmanco #Windows Snacks: Ingredients: Corn, vegetable Oil, Salt, Cheese Flavor, Conflicker, SasserSep 22 20:47
trmancois this in some kind of a loop?Sep 22 20:48
trmanco:-PSep 22 20:48
trmancoohSep 22 20:48
trmancoanother person recycled itSep 22 20:48
DaemonFCthey say Windows has lots of virusesSep 22 20:48
MinceRthe meme spreads ;)Sep 22 20:48
DaemonFCI've only personally ran into two in the last 15 years or soSep 22 20:49
DaemonFCand both were detected before they could do damageSep 22 20:49
fewabut if you credit everyone the list will get kinda long.... :PSep 22 20:49
DaemonFCso I averaged maybe 1 virus every 7.5 years and they didn't even get to damage or infect anything before they were detectedSep 22 20:49
DaemonFCviruses really are being given a much harder time than they used to beSep 22 20:50
DaemonFCXP pre-SP2 didn't really do anything to defend itselfSep 22 20:51
DaemonFCit still gets that reputation though because morons infect themselves or run all kinds of pirated software with no antivirusSep 22 20:51
DaemonFCpeople on torrent sites spread pre-infected copies of Windows with all kinds of bad shitSep 22 20:52
*phIRCe has kicked DaemonFC from #boycottnovell (Watch you language!)Sep 22 20:52
*DaemonFC (i=Ryan@ has joined #boycottnovellSep 22 20:52
DaemonFCcensorbotSep 22 20:52
DaemonFCf*ck you tooSep 22 20:52
DaemonFCsilly schestowitz, censorship is for the ChineseSep 22 20:53
DaemonFC:)Sep 22 20:53
DaemonFCschestowitz, Oddly enough, I got a Zogby survey asking me how I felt about ChinaSep 22 20:54
DaemonFCthe gist of my reply was good people oppressed by a bad governmentSep 22 20:54
trmanco 22 20:54
trmancohahaSep 22 20:55
fewaDaemonFC, which government?Sep 22 20:55
fewathere are manySep 22 20:55
DaemonFCthe PRC regimeSep 22 20:55
DaemonFCthe illegitimate Chinese regimeSep 22 20:55
fewaim not going thereSep 22 20:55
MinceRthat's oneSep 22 20:55
MinceRthere's also the RoC :>Sep 22 20:56
fewa(no as in travel)Sep 22 20:56
fewa^^^^Sep 22 20:56
DaemonFCMinceR, the ROC is the legitimate Chinese governmentSep 22 20:56
MinceRoh, then we agree on thisSep 22 20:56
DaemonFCthat I'm disgusted by the PRC?Sep 22 20:56
DaemonFCour recognition of them?Sep 22 20:56
DaemonFCyesSep 22 20:57
DaemonFCWe should embargo themSep 22 20:57
DaemonFCwe won't do it though because of rich special interestsSep 22 20:57
fewaooo, i though MinceR was saying the RoC was the other illigitmate govenment, as a jokeSep 22 20:57
MinceR:DSep 22 20:57
MinceRwell, in a sense all forms of government are illegitimate :>Sep 22 20:57
DaemonFCMinceR, The PRC is a perfect example of a tyrannical government that has grown so powerful and entrenched that nobody can get rid of itSep 22 20:58
DaemonFCthey'd murder every last Chinese person before they gave up powerSep 22 20:58
MinceRi know, right?Sep 22 20:59
DaemonFCwell, this just shows what a damned joke the UN isSep 22 20:59
DaemonFCideally there would be a worldwide embargo until the PRC gave up controlSep 22 20:59
MinceRi'm not sure if that could workSep 22 21:00
DaemonFCsure it wouldSep 22 21:00
MinceRthey seem to be big enough to be self-sufficient if they wanted to beSep 22 21:00
DaemonFCthe government would fall apartSep 22 21:00
MinceRand they'd probably choose isolation before giving up power.Sep 22 21:00
MinceRi doubt it wouldSep 22 21:00
DaemonFCthey rely largely on a constant stream of dollars and EurosSep 22 21:00
MinceRit didn't fall apart in north korea eitherSep 22 21:00
DaemonFCthey're very inefficientSep 22 21:01
DaemonFCthey're already overstretched as it isSep 22 21:01
fewaschestowitz, you dont show up in search ? 22 21:01
DaemonFCand on top of that, they're trying to run things like a manned space programSep 22 21:01
DaemonFCideally there would be an "International Space Agency"Sep 22 21:02
DaemonFCbecause what we have now carries a lot of redundanciesSep 22 21:02
DaemonFCevery country is trying to run their own independent space program and all of them keep getting cut for lack of budgetSep 22 21:03
trmancofewa: search is real timeSep 22 21:03
trmancohe might of already passedSep 22 21:04
fewabut mine was firstSep 22 21:04
trmancoohSep 22 21:05
DaemonFCI was walking the Comcast tech through dual booting Windows with LinuxSep 22 21:05
DaemonFCcause he mentioned it interested himSep 22 21:05
DaemonFChehSep 22 21:05
trmancoyou are scientes?Sep 22 21:05
*fewa has quit (Remote closed the connection)Sep 22 21:06
schestowitzLawyers try to find out if there's cash to be made from FOSS: 22 21:06
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[davidgerard] how programming interviews actually go 22 21:06
MinceRDaemonFC: if there was only one space agency, where would the motivation from competition come?Sep 22 21:06
MinceRs/.$/from?/Sep 22 21:07
DaemonFCMinceR, That's overblownSep 22 21:07
MinceRstrange, i thought you believed in capitalism :>Sep 22 21:07
DaemonFCthe only competition between nations  in space programs seems to be who can run out of money firstSep 22 21:08
DaemonFCMinceR, In many cases, yesSep 22 21:08
MinceRnot reallySep 22 21:08
MinceRthere were goals alreadySep 22 21:08
MinceRgetting to orbit first, getting a living human to space and back first, getting to the moon firstSep 22 21:08
DaemonFCin some cases, more can be done through cooperationSep 22 21:09
DaemonFCMinceR, That was when the budget was thereSep 22 21:09
DaemonFCnow that we've gone to the moon, the "What's next?" part always comes with a trillion dollar price tagSep 22 21:10
schestowitzAnd money was tied to goldSep 22 21:10
DaemonFCand no politician will pay thatSep 22 21:10
DaemonFCschestowitz, The money was not tied to gold in 1969Sep 22 21:10
DaemonFCit hasn't been since 1913Sep 22 21:10
DaemonFCschestowitz, I don't think the money necessarily has to be tied to gold or silver, but letting banks run amok and print as much as they want isn't working eitherSep 22 21:11
DaemonFCso it needs to be tied to somethingSep 22 21:11
schestowitz1970sSep 22 21:11
DaemonFCnopeSep 22 21:11
schestowitzSource?Sep 22 21:11
DaemonFCfederal reserve notes have always been promissory notes, schestowitzSep 22 21:11
schestowitz1913 is around the time they Federal Reserve got snuck in, no?Sep 22 21:12
DaemonFCyesSep 22 21:12
schestowitzIn a very sneaky way, tooSep 22 21:12
DaemonFCyesSep 22 21:12
DaemonFCif they had brought it to a vote beforethe entire senate it would have been shot down in flamesSep 22 21:12
DaemonFCwithout even so much as an hour of debateSep 22 21:12
schestowitzWas Greenspan its chairman in 1913? He's like a dinosaurSep 22 21:12
DaemonFCvery sneaky indeedSep 22 21:12
DaemonFCprobablySep 22 21:12
DaemonFCthat "Audit the Fed" bill is about the only chance we have to demand some accountabilitySep 22 21:13
DaemonFCbut if they get audited, the dollar will crashSep 22 21:13
schestowitzBoo hooSep 22 21:14
schestowitzSame thing was said about public looting (aka bailout)Sep 22 21:14
DaemonFCthe perceived value of a dollar is there because nobody knows the kind of bankroom deals that result in it being created from thin airSep 22 21:14
schestowitzDiplomats were almost black mailed to approveSep 22 21:14
DaemonFCwell, the Euro is not much betterSep 22 21:14
schestowitzIt's like saying to a cancer patient he should never go chemo cause s/he might lose hairSep 22 21:15
DaemonFCschestowitz, I didn't say it shouldn't be doneSep 22 21:15
DaemonFCsometimes the only way to fix something is to tear it down and start from scratchSep 22 21:15
DaemonFCnobody wants to go through the pain of starting over so they let the fed run amokSep 22 21:15
schestowitzUntil they pass awaySep 22 21:16
schestowitz"The grandkids will deal with"Sep 22 21:16
schestowitz This one's new...... 22 21:17
DaemonFC 22 21:18
DaemonFCschestowitz, manufacturer agreeing to support LinuxSep 22 21:18
DaemonFCPowerColorSep 22 21:18
DaemonFClook on the first reviewSep 22 21:18
schestowitztessier: 22 21:18
DaemonFCI wonder if that would be a suitable replacement for a Geforce 9500 GTSep 22 21:19
schestowitz"Doesn't fully work with Linux"Sep 22 21:19
DaemonFCit shouldSep 22 21:20
DaemonFCthe manufacturer's response even says it shouldSep 22 21:20
DaemonFChmmmmSep 22 21:21
MinceRyes, ati should write drivers that don't suckSep 22 21:21
MinceRbut they don'tSep 22 21:21
DaemonFCnot a suitable Geforce 9500 GT replacementSep 22 21:21
DaemonFC 22 21:21
DaemonFC"The 3450 fared worse, but considering its $50 price tag, it’s hard to complain. It managed 14 fps on average in Oblivion at the ultra high settings,"Sep 22 21:21
DaemonFCI get at least 25-30 with the Geforce 9500 GTSep 22 21:21
*_goblin has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out))Sep 22 21:23
tessierschestowitz: Saw it already. Very cool. I think my friend Kevin Miller was instrumental in making that happen. And myself, very indirectly, from having helped put together and present at the first LUG meeting there a few years ago.Sep 22 21:24
schestowitzCoo.Sep 22 21:25
schestowitz*/coolSep 22 21:25
schestowitzDaemonFC: transistors wasted on DirectXSep 22 21:26
DaemonFCschestowitz, There's no reason a modern card can't support bothSep 22 21:27
schestowitzWaste of effortSep 22 21:29
schestowitzMicrosoft deviated on purpose and stomped on programmers in the processSep 22 21:29
DaemonFCOpenGL doesn't perform wellSep 22 21:29
DaemonFCwell, it's very bloated anywaySep 22 21:29
DaemonFCbut a card shouldn't have to choose between themSep 22 21:30
DaemonFCSGI is gone and OpenGL is lagging because of a bureaucracy of various industry groupsSep 22 21:31
DaemonFCschestowitz, As of August 3, 2009, OpenGL 3.2 finally supports shader model that's as good as DirectX 10 had in 2006Sep 22 21:35
DaemonFCso I'd estimate that OpenGL is lagging DirectX by about 3 years at this pointSep 22 21:36
DaemonFCAnd a lot of nice things that OpenGL does have were developed by companies like AppleSep 22 21:37
DaemonFCincluding OpenCLSep 22 21:37
DaemonFCDirectX already has a rival to OpenCL in DirectX ComputeSep 22 21:39
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MinceROpenGL needs to survive m$Sep 22 21:41
*DaemonFC has quit (Nick collision from services.)Sep 22 21:41
MinceRbecause there isn't going to be anything after them otherwiseSep 22 21:41
*DaemonFC` is now known as DaemonFCSep 22 21:41
DaemonFCOpenGL really needs to get it togetherSep 22 21:42
trmancoopengl is equal do directxSep 22 21:43
trmancoor even betterSep 22 21:43
DaemonFCit's way behind in many waysSep 22 21:43
DaemonFCequal in someSep 22 21:43
trmancothere was a image comparing themSep 22 21:43
DaemonFCbut that's just recent and DirectX 11 alreayd springs ahead of OpenGL 3.2Sep 22 21:43
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[davidgerard] Horror story from the Cold War: 1. There was an actual Doomsday Device. 2. It's STILL DEPLOYED. 22 21:45
schestowitzCBS again (FOSS FUD):,1000000308,39760362,00.htmSep 22 21:46
schestowitzBIND has worked fineSep 22 21:46
schestowitzBut they have to make up imaginary issuesSep 22 21:46
schestowitzOpenGL is very widely usedSep 22 21:47
schestowitzIt's not going awauSep 22 21:47
schestowitzThe animated films are OpenGLSep 22 21:47
schestowitzSony, Nintendo, etc.Sep 22 21:47
schestowitzAnd it's x-platformSep 22 21:47
schestowitzDirectX will die when Microsoft shrinks to the point of not having people to maintain itSep 22 21:48
schestowitzMicrosoft press covers MicrosoftSep 22 21:50
schestowitz 22 21:50
trmancoschestowitz: twitfolk support identicaSep 22 21:50
schestowitzYes, I don't know how thoughSep 22 21:50
schestowitzI haven't looked into itSep 22 21:50
trmancoah okSep 22 21:51
_goblinLOL......"Microsoft: Windows Live and Mobile Services unprofitable" ....Really?  never would have thought....Sep 22 21:51
schestowitzHahaSep 22 21:52
schestowitzOf courseSep 22 21:52
schestowitzFor agesSep 22 21:52
schestowitzIt's imprinted into their tombstoneSep 22 21:53
schestowitzWithout Office, Microsoft would be bankrupt... long agoSep 22 21:53
_goblin 22 21:53
_goblinsorry....I should have tinyurl'd it.Sep 22 21:53
trmancohehSep 22 21:54
schestowitz "Disclaimer: This is not a rant against any particular desktop, although I do prefer KDE over GNOME. Its simply offering users what they seem to want."Sep 22 21:54
trmancothat strings after ? are junkSep 22 21:54
_goblinKDE over Gnome?.....nah.......KDE over XFCE? hell no!Sep 22 21:56
_goblinI really want to like KDE....never have....Sep 22 21:57
cubezzzI liked older KDESep 22 21:57
cubezzznewer KDE 4+ seems a bit slowSep 22 21:58
trmancothings are getting fasterSep 22 21:58
schestowitzFor me it's the oppositeSep 22 21:59
trmancoI don't know how the last kde wasSep 22 21:59
trmancobut I like kde 4 as isSep 22 21:59
schestowitzGot faster since Linux 2.6.27 and KDE 3.5Sep 22 21:59
trmancomaybe the kernelSep 22 21:59
trmancoit got that fix for heavy loadSep 22 21:59
schestowitzHess is like a troll now, I'll ignore him..... 22 21:59
cubezzzschestowitz, I'm still on 3.4.2 :)Sep 22 22:00
schestowitz4.4 is coming soon.Sep 22 22:00
schestowitzMaybe December I'd guessSep 22 22:00
schestowitzAnother MAAAAAAAAAAAAAJOR troll: 22 22:01
schestowitzAdrian TrollstonSep 22 22:01
schestowitzThe holy tech flame wars 22 22:02
schestowitzWin vs LinSep 22 22:02
trmancoI would like a kde 4.3.2 soonSep 22 22:03
trmancoknode  has some bugsSep 22 22:03
cubezzzwell everything's getting more bloatedSep 22 22:03
trmancowe can't live on text for everSep 22 22:03
cubezzzunless you use older software and maintain it yourselfSep 22 22:04
*DaemonFC has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out))Sep 22 22:04
cubezzzmy favourite example: Amiga 500 with 512K of ramSep 22 22:04
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tessierMy coworkers Windows box just got a virus...AGAIN.Sep 22 22:06
trmancololSep 22 22:06
trmancoformat c:\?Sep 22 22:06
tessierHe just reinstalled it a couple of days ago. I'm telling him, use Linux...Sep 22 22:06
cubezzzif you look at even 2.4 there's a lot of stuff you could leave outSep 22 22:06
cubezzzI'm using embedix for streaming internet radio, it's pretty lean and meanSep 22 22:07
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schestowitz;jsessionid=ZSQJUUDUQNQP3QE1GHPSKH4ATMY32JVNSep 22 22:11
schestowitzHey, wallclimberSep 22 22:11
schestowitztrmanco: knode is OKSep 22 22:12
schestowitzIt takes up more RAM than before if you open vast NGsSep 22 22:12
trmancoI have some ignoring thread problemsSep 22 22:12
schestowitzThe rest can be worked aroundSep 22 22:12
schestowitzwallclimber: I hope you were not disappointed with my poor joke earlier. Text does not convey humour or /sarcasm too wellSep 22 22:13
schestowitztessier: is it a lot of work to install?Sep 22 22:13
schestowitzI remember trying to install Win2000 on a laptop when it came outSep 22 22:13
schestowitzIt was DISASTROUSSep 22 22:13
schestowitzI had to get back to Win98Sep 22 22:14
schestowitzWIn2000 didn't detect the hardware and drivers on the Net were useless.Sep 22 22:14
cubezzza lot of stuff stopped working in win2KSep 22 22:14
schestowitzWindows - when you have too much spare time to mess around, Anyway, that's the newest version of WIndows I ever tried installingSep 22 22:14
DaemonFCschestowitz, Yeah, that was a problemSep 22 22:16
DaemonFCwas being the key wordSep 22 22:16
DaemonFCit angered me, having to have a driver disc separatelySep 22 22:17
wallclimberHi!  (I'm on the phone)  :)Sep 22 22:17
DaemonFCthat bit got better with Vista, since it recognizes, at least, most network devicesSep 22 22:17
DaemonFCWindows 7 doesn't make me download any drivers, it even recognizes my TV tunerSep 22 22:17
amarsh04schestowitz, I presume you mean W98SE, I had to help a friend install W98 something on a laptop - imposible with the original, easy with W98SESep 22 22:17
DaemonFC98 SE was just a collection of updatesSep 22 22:18
DaemonFCnot even amounting to a service packSep 22 22:18
DaemonFCit was really just meant for people on dial up that didn't feel like downloading the 100 or so updates by themselvesSep 22 22:19
amarsh04try finding drivers for W95OSR2 these days... I updated by 1998 era machine which has W95OSR2 on the original scsi drive with a realtek 8139 and radeon 9200se... took ages to find drivers that worked for W95 with the hardwareSep 22 22:19
cubezzzyou guys are lucky, I have one customer who wants win95 _support_Sep 22 22:20
wallclimberRoy, no problem, I just got busy and had to get to work.Sep 22 22:20
amarsh04I've had too much experience with machines that couldn't get any level of stability with w98 original plus updates but ran fine with w98seSep 22 22:20
schestowitzamarsh04: yes, SESep 22 22:20
*DaemonFC` ( has joined #boycottnovellSep 22 22:20
schestowitzI still have the CDs hereSep 22 22:20
DaemonFC`you still couldn't use Windows 98 on hard drives bigger than 150 GB, but there's an unofficial patch for thatSep 22 22:20
schestowitzIt came with the laptopSep 22 22:20
amarsh04an app, cubezzz?Sep 22 22:20
*DaemonFC has quit (Nick collision from services.)Sep 22 22:21
schestowitzWHen Compaq was still CompaqSep 22 22:21
*DaemonFC` is now known as DaemonFCSep 22 22:21
cubezzzamarsh04, he's got this big-ass scanner with a weird SCSI interface cardSep 22 22:21
amarsh04ah.... I'm just happy that seamonkey still runs on w95Sep 22 22:21
schestowitzDaemonFC's connection is still dodgySep 22 22:21
*DaemonFC` ( has joined #boycottnovellSep 22 22:22
cubezzzbad vibes maybe? :)Sep 22 22:22
wallclimber:)Sep 22 22:22
amarsh04if it's adsl, it took me 11 visits from technicians replacing various segments of wiring before my connection stabilised, and that was with less than 2 metres of internal wiringSep 22 22:22
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cubezzzdamn, I'll never learn about win98 nowSep 22 22:23
cubezzzamarsh04, the best thing to do is make friends with the DSL techsSep 22 22:24
cubezzzit took a while, but I figured out how to talk to Bell techs directlySep 22 22:25
amarsh04that too cubezzz, I still have the POTS service so if that goes bad I can call Telstra... people with "naked" adsl have problems because they have to call the isp every time, who then call the telcoSep 22 22:25
trmanco 22 22:25
cubezzzI wonder if internet over shortwave radio is possibleSep 22 22:26
cubezzzsome sort of slow back-up internetSep 22 22:27
cubezzza lynx friendly ad free internet that costs nothingSep 22 22:28
amarsh04plenty of people use some kind of "line of sight" wirelessSep 22 22:28
cubezzzok, I'm dreaming now :)Sep 22 22:28
amarsh04cubezzz, short wave packet radio for amateur radio is very strictly non-commercialSep 22 22:29
*cubezzz nodsSep 22 22:30
trmanco 22 22:30
trmanco5 second boot timeSep 22 22:31
cubezzzinteresting story trmancoSep 22 22:34
cubezzzre: 500 mile emailSep 22 22:34
wallclimbertook a break...just got back to my desk - apparently, while I was busy elsewhere, someone here painted my computer mouse with rubber cement...lolSep 22 22:34
trmanco:)Sep 22 22:34
wallclimberthis means war...Sep 22 22:34
MinceR233322 < deso> Programming today is a race between software engineers striving to build bigger and better idiot-proof programs, and the Universe trying to produce biggerSep 22 22:34
*phIRCe has kicked MinceR from #boycottnovell (Watch you language!)Sep 22 22:34
trmanco:|Sep 22 22:35
*MinceR (n=mincer@unaffiliated/mincer) has joined #boycottnovellSep 22 22:35
cubezzzswearbot is back eh? :)Sep 22 22:35
MinceRphIRCe: fuсk youSep 22 22:35
trmanco:OSep 22 22:35
wallclimbermy oh my!Sep 22 22:35
trmancoyou found a work aroundSep 22 22:35
MinceRtold you this method was useless :>Sep 22 22:36
MinceRi know a couple workaroundsSep 22 22:36
trmancobetter use regular expressions thenSep 22 22:36
cubezzzwhy was he kicked though?Sep 22 22:36
trmancoidi*tSep 22 22:36
MinceRbecause some idiоt decided "idiоt" was a swear wordSep 22 22:36
MinceR:>Sep 22 22:36
cubezzzah :)Sep 22 22:36
trmancoheySep 22 22:37
trmancowtf happed to the botSep 22 22:37
trmancohappenedSep 22 22:37
trmancoidiotSep 22 22:37
*phIRCe has kicked trmanco from #boycottnovell (Watch you language!)Sep 22 22:37
MinceRpwntSep 22 22:37
*trmanco ( has joined #boycottnovellSep 22 22:37
*MinceR points at trmanco and laughsSep 22 22:38
trmancoyou son of a "shit"Sep 22 22:38
*phIRCe has kicked trmanco from #boycottnovell (Watch you language!)Sep 22 22:38
*trmanco ( has joined #boycottnovellSep 22 22:38
trmancowtf :|Sep 22 22:38
MinceRno uSep 22 22:38
trmancoMinceR: swear againSep 22 22:38
MinceRfuсkSep 22 22:39
trmancoMinceR: how do you do it?Sep 22 22:39
MinceRif i told you, you could prevent me from swearing this way :>Sep 22 22:39
trmancowellSep 22 22:39
*DaemonFC has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out))Sep 22 22:39
trmancofair enoughSep 22 22:40
schestowitztrmanco: bug?Sep 22 22:40
trmancobut stillSep 22 22:40
trmancoschestowitz: noSep 22 22:40
trmancoMinceR: knows hist way around itSep 22 22:40
schestowitzDoes he use charsets?Sep 22 22:40
wallclimbernow look what you did, you scared Daemon away  :)Sep 22 22:40
MinceR:)Sep 22 22:40
trmancothis shit works, seeSep 22 22:40
*phIRCe has kicked trmanco from #boycottnovell (Watch you language!)Sep 22 22:40
*trmanco ( has joined #boycottnovellSep 22 22:40
schestowitzwallclimber: he has electrodes on himSep 22 22:40
wallclimberlolSep 22 22:40
trmancojust not with MinceRSep 22 22:40
schestowitzHe gets zapped for saying s*itSep 22 22:40
trmancoI missed somethingSep 22 22:40
trmancomaybe something minorSep 22 22:41
trmancoMinceR: won't shareSep 22 22:41
trmanco:|Sep 22 22:41
wallclimberwell, i have to go find a clean mouse and fire the staff...have fun :)Sep 22 22:41
*wallclimber has quit ("wallclimber wanders off...")Sep 22 22:41
_goblinmerdeSep 22 22:43
MinceRso your badword kick caused 4 swear words to be said in the last 10 minutesSep 22 22:43
MinceRoh the ironySep 22 22:44
_goblinphrice aint that good then...Sep 22 22:44
MinceRthe whole approach is flawedSep 22 22:44
MinceRhaving a program moderate a discussion without being able to understand itSep 22 22:44
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] Why #GNU #Linux is Great #opedSep 22 22:44
_goblinnot that I approve of swear words though.....Sep 22 22:44
trmancoI just got boredSep 22 22:45
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] Setting Expectations for #Desktop #GNU #Linux Appropriately 22 22:46
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] #XServer 1.7 Hits RC2 22 22:53
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] #Kernel News from #LinuxCon 22 22:54
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] K Desktop Environment 4.4 Shows New Features #kdeSep 22 22:57
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] #RedHat Surges Ahead of Expected Great Results 22 22:59
*gargoyle-grin (n=randerso@gentoo/contributor/gargoyle-grin) has left #boycottnovellSep 22 23:10
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] Previews of #Ubuntu #GNU #Linux #KarmicKoala and #LucidLynx 22 23:11
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] #Ubuntu #gnu #linux Derivative #UltimateEdition Gamers 2.3 is Released 22 23:15've sold it to me....time to have a look at gamers 2.3.......Sep 22 23:20
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] #Nokia 's Phones Liberated with #Linux 22 23:21
*DaemonFC ( has joined #boycottnovellSep 22 23:23
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] More #Compact Sub-notebooks Adopt #Linux 22 23:24
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] IIM #Bangalore to Use #GNU #Linux to Serve #Education 22 23:26
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] Norwegian IT Giant Adopts #FreeSoftware Route 22 23:28
schestowitz_goblin:  nice.Sep 22 23:29
_goblinnot that I'm a gamer....I did enjoy Alien Arena though a while back...Sep 22 23:30
*lis` has quit ("baibai<3")Sep 22 23:33
DaemonFCI managed to build a Win64 version of VLC PlayerSep 22 23:33
DaemonFCit's a little buggy, but it works well enough for what I need it forSep 22 23:34
trmanco!quit phIRCeSep 22 23:34
*phIRCe has quit ("Exiting!")Sep 22 23:34
trmancotime to goSep 22 23:34
trmancognSep 22 23:34
DaemonFCMingW64 is still inappropriate which is why I think the VLC people aren't providing a 64-bit binarySep 22 23:35
DaemonFCit does compile with MSVC with some coercingSep 22 23:35
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] #Mozilla Celebrates Day for the Web, #Vietnam Celebrates #SoftwareFreedomDay htt ...Sep 22 23:35
DaemonFCI don't know why everyone is bitching and moaning and dragging their feet over Win64Sep 22 23:36
DaemonFCit's pretty much identical to Win32Sep 22 23:36
DaemonFCyou'd think that at the very least, open source stuff would be ported, but it's notSep 22 23:37
trmancoif it were identical, nobody would be moaning about itSep 22 23:37
DaemonFCclosed source stuff is actually being ported over fasterSep 22 23:37
DaemonFCtrmanco, the API is identicalSep 22 23:37
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] #Cyberoam Makes #FreeSoftware for Logging and Reporting 22 23:37
DaemonFCminor changes here and there but there is no wildly different featuresSep 22 23:38
DaemonFCand everything in Win32 has a Win64 equivalentSep 22 23:38
Balrog_I'm waiting for Wine that runs on 64-bit LinuxSep 22 23:42
Balrog_as a 64-bit processSep 22 23:42
*Xarver ( has joined #boycottnovellSep 22 23:43
DaemonFCWine has no Win64 supportSep 22 23:44
Balrog_DaemonFC: there is Wine64Sep 22 23:44
DaemonFCthat hasn't been an issue up til nowSep 22 23:44
Balrog_ 22 23:45
Balrog_it's buggySep 22 23:45
DaemonFCit'll hurt them in the next few years if they don't have it thoughSep 22 23:45
Balrog_but you can't run Wine32 in 64-bitSep 22 23:45
DaemonFCwell, that part isn't an issueSep 22 23:46
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] #Standards Pushed Into #InternetExplorer by #Google 22 23:46
DaemonFC32-bit x86 software runs fine on X86-64Sep 22 23:47
DaemonFCthere's certain kinds of software that run a bit faster as native x86-64Sep 22 23:47
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] #LilyAllen Under Pressure for Reciting #IntellectualMonopolies #Myths #itsnotfairSep 22 23:48
DaemonFCcompiling Wine as x86-64 would break all the Windows applications you wanted to run in itSep 22 23:49
Balrog_DaemonFC: not if it was fixed to work properlySep 22 23:50
Balrog_I'm told they're working on itSep 22 23:50
DaemonFCyou'll end up with two versions of Wine on your system when x86-64 support is added properlySep 22 23:50
Balrog_at firstSep 22 23:50
Balrog_afterwards they'll be working on makingSep 22 23:50
Balrog_Wine x86_64 run 32-bit appsSep 22 23:50
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] #Patents Turn to Harvesting Fodder #fail #uspto *unnovationSep 22 23:50
DaemonFCI think schestowitz was waffling on about .Net the other day as an argument for why Wine won't always cut itSep 22 23:51
DaemonFCI think just by stating that he's giving .Net too much creditSep 22 23:51
DaemonFCthere's actually more useful .Net applications on Linux than there are on WindowsSep 22 23:52
DaemonFC.Net is not popular on Windows, and I'd have to struggle to name more than a couple things that anyone has any reason to care about that use itSep 22 23:52
Balrog_Mono will never support regular Windows applicationsSep 22 23:52
DaemonFCtrueSep 22 23:53
DaemonFCI'm just saying that the average Linux user comes into contact with more Mono applications than the average Windows user comes into contact with .Net applicationsSep 22 23:53
DaemonFCthey're really just few and far between and there's only a couple cool things that use itSep 22 23:53
DaemonFCthe most prominent applications would probably be Paint .Net and CDBurnerXPSep 22 23:54
DaemonFCGimp and Imgburn will work better, faster, etc. thoughSep 22 23:54
DaemonFC.Net is running into the same problems that Java gives youSep 22 23:55
DaemonFCreally bloated really massive really memory hogging crapplicationsSep 22 23:55
DaemonFCthat are too slow to be anything but a noveltySep 22 23:55
DaemonFC99% of the time, you're just better off using C or C++Sep 22 23:55
DaemonFCand the trickle of .Net applications proves that muchSep 22 23:56
DaemonFCI would say it's Windows Media all over again, but I'm sure even that is more widespread than .NetSep 22 23:56
DaemonFCthe only standards-subverting crap that anyone should be worried about right now is OOXMLSep 22 23:57
DaemonFCif that catches on, it's game overSep 22 23:57
DaemonFCit's 100 times worse than .NetSep 22 23:57
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] Possible SCO-Microsoft-Psystar Connections Seen Again 22 23:58
DaemonFCOOXML is gaining ground because anyone who clicks Save in MS Office is using OOXML unless they get the ODF plug in from SunSep 22 23:58
DaemonFCand I doubt enough people have enough of a clue to do thatSep 22 23:59

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