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IRC: #boycottnovell @ FreeNode: October 24th, 2009

Chips_B_MalroyIts interesting that MS cut MS Works.  as they recently invested more money in that as a "free advertiseing" based product available in places outside the USA.  Where "piracy" is bigger.  Why invest money, then turn right around and cancell the project?Oct 24 00:02
_goblinhi chips!Oct 24 00:05
Chips_B_Malroyhey goblinOct 24 00:06
Chips_B_Malroyyou see I have been posting stuff on your siteOct 24 00:07
_goblinyeah! Appreciated, Ive had little time to properly respond this week!Oct 24 00:07
Chips_B_MalroyI a bit off topic there I knowOct 24 00:07
_goblinIm still pleased about getting Indiana Gregg on my blog....ive a few other celebs lined up...Oct 24 00:08
Chips_B_Malroyyou must be getting more hits there Oct 24 00:11
_goblinone or two....Oct 24 00:14
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-BNc/#boycottnovell-[_goblin] My lad of 1 year and 4 months dances and claps to Lordi - "Hard Rock Hallelujah" he's rocker already....good lad..! #metalOct 24 00:19
Chips_B_MalroyThe "piracy" or copyright issue is an interesting one.  My take on it is the media companies have been so sucessful in  controlling the market (fixing prices, collaberation) that they themselves have partly caused the economic reasons for filesharing to exsist.  M$ is in similar terrory here.Oct 24 00:21
_goblintrue...Oct 24 00:21
trmanco!quit phIRCeOct 24 00:21
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trmancognOct 24 00:21
Chips_B_MalroyI am not condoning it, only the end results is what interests meOct 24 00:22
_goblinI think with Music in particular you have not only the issue of piracy but also the fact that the technology to record your own work is within the reach of the average person....Oct 24 00:22
Chips_B_MalroyyesOct 24 00:23
Chips_B_Malroymidi can actually sound good on some instrumentsOct 24 00:23
Chips_B_Malroyas exampleOct 24 00:24
_goblinI think its quite possible now to create an almost studio quality production with tech that you already have....I think that will be the problem for labels....Oct 24 00:26
Chips_B_Malroymidi would be almost an onasaleable legal hurdle for the music industry to sue, I would thinkOct 24 00:27
Chips_B_Malroy*unOct 24 00:27
Chips_B_Malroyof course there will be other ways to transcribe sheet music to some kind of player, without the orginal vocalsOct 24 00:28
Chips_B_Malroyif that would be piracy, who knowsOct 24 00:28
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Chips_B_Malroysee, being an old fart I did not ever know who Indy is.  My last purchases of music was Pink Floyd and Alan ParsonsOct 24 00:29
Chips_B_Malroyback a few yearsOct 24 00:29
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] Linus Loves It! #fsf #kernel #humorOct 24 00:30
schestowitzLinus would kill meOct 24 00:30
Chips_B_MalroyGoblin, so you see, I have no sympathy for the media companies or MicroSoft, which act as monopolies, set prices that are too high.  Sue their custermorsOct 24 00:31
Chips_B_Malroyas I said, both sides are wrong, but one side is just plain evilOct 24 00:32
schestowitz 24 00:32
Chips_B_Malroyas in evil with greedOct 24 00:32
Chips_B_Malroyand MicroSoft is a media company, think MSNBC, Silverlight, partner with Netflix using Silverlight, streaming vids to XBox360.  They MS, want to move move into the media busOct 24 00:36
Chips_B_Malroyits why all the DRM in ViSta/$evenOct 24 00:36
schestowitz 24 00:37
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schestowitz 24 00:45
schestowitzI like him better with RMS books :-DOct 24 00:45
schestowitz "I knew he was losing his edge when he wouldn't take a stand for freedom with RMS but especially now you can see he can even think logically because he set the wrong bit on his hand."Oct 24 00:46
schestowitz "Did he ship a life-size glossy of this to Ballmer? "Oct 24 00:47
Chips_B_Malroywell, you folks keep up the good work, laterOct 24 00:56
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cubezzzBallmer is a mental caseOct 24 01:02
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schestowitz,1000000567,10014279o-2000331777b,00.htmOct 24 01:13
schestowitzback in a momentOct 24 01:14
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**** BEGIN LOGGING AT Sat Oct 24 01:20:30 2009
*Now talking on #boycottnovellOct 24 01:20
*Topic for #boycottnovell is: Communication about anything, including Microsoft, Novell, and Free software [publicly logged]Oct 24 01:20
*Topic for #boycottnovell set by schestowitz at Fri Jun 12 18:24:05 2009Oct 24 01:20
-ChanServ-[#boycottnovell] Welcome to the #boycottnovell channelOct 24 01:20
schestowitzSun is anxious to be sold. 24 01:24
cubezzzwe'll end up with two behemothsOct 24 01:26
cubezzzMicrosoft and OracleOct 24 01:26
schestowitzWhat about IBM?Oct 24 01:27
schestowitzAnd GOOG and Apple?Oct 24 01:28
schestowitzOligarchs in their respective fieldsOct 24 01:28
schestowitzMostly US-based companiesOct 24 01:28
schestowitzEU has SAPOct 24 01:28
schestowitzBut for s/w in general, it's mostly US-ownedOct 24 01:28
cubezzzwell, I'm thinking of software mostlyOct 24 01:28
schestowitzUnless I forgot somethingOct 24 01:28
schestowitzAsia has the h/w giantsOct 24 01:29
schestowitzSamsung employed 700,000Oct 24 01:29
schestowitzTwo IBMs in one companyOct 24 01:29
schestowitzMicrosoft is expected to lay off moreOct 24 01:29
cubezzzhuh, didn't realize Samsung was so bigOct 24 01:29
schestowitzIt's just a darn nuisance to people who use FS on the desktopOct 24 01:29
schestowitzThey also contaminate the Web with their binariesOct 24 01:30
schestowitzFoxconn is a lot bigger than SamsungOct 24 01:30
cubezzzwell it seems to me that the Japanese companies are more linux friendlyOct 24 01:30
schestowitzFoxconn laid off 100,000 at one point last yearOct 24 01:30
schestowitzThat's several stadiums full of employees, all sackedOct 24 01:30
schestowitzTo announce to them that they get the pink slip you'd need a massive standiumOct 24 01:31
schestowitzcubezzz: Japan yes, for devicesOct 24 01:31
schestowitzRobotics as wellOct 24 01:31
schestowitz 24 01:32
schestowitz"OpenCalais"? WT*? 24 01:36
-BNi/#boycottnovell-[diablod3/@diablod3] #AlFraken kicks eleventy-million kinds of ass in health-care hearing 24 01:54
Diablo-D3hrm lets try that againOct 24 01:54
*schestowitz plays with kwin effectsxzOct 24 01:57
schestowitzOoh.. it's snowingOct 24 01:58
-BNi/#boycottnovell-[diablod3/@diablod3] #AlFranken kicks eleventy-million kinds of ass in health-care hearing 24 01:59
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oiaohmI guess schestowitz is in bed.Oct 24 02:00
schestowitzNopeOct 24 02:00
schestowitzWhat's up?Oct 24 02:01
oiaohmThe nokia one is not software patents but hardware patents.Oct 24 02:01
oiaohmI have a feeling apple might have started it off using there hardware font rendering patent against nokia.Oct 24 02:01
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schestowitz"Webkit was developed by Apple out of the code originally created by the KDE project, and released as open source in mid-2005." 24 02:02
schestowitzjose_X: caught your comment in LT re LinusOct 24 02:02
jose_XokOct 24 02:02
schestowitzSo I made a corrected version :-)Oct 24 02:02
jose_Xwill checkOct 24 02:02
jose_X 24 02:02
schestowitz 24 02:02
jose_X"Icahn resigns from Yahoo's board on friendly terms"Oct 24 02:02
oiaohmNokia does not really believe in software patents.  Hardware patent breach is simpler to prove schestowitzOct 24 02:02
schestowitzLinus would no longer reply to my mail if he saw itOct 24 02:02
schestowitzjose_X: friendly to whom?Oct 24 02:03
schestowitzThe cronies whom he helped appoint?Oct 24 02:03
jose_Xyes,Oct 24 02:03
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jose_X>> Icahn also applauded Yahoo's decision three months ago to hire Microsoft to provide its search results in the United States for the next decade. It's a partnership that Icahn tried to bring together while he was still seeking to get Yang fired. The proposed alliance between Yahoo and Microsoft still requires regulatory approval.Oct 24 02:03
schestowitzHe voted for all thisOct 24 02:03
schestowitzIncluding the s*ty microsoft dealOct 24 02:03
schestowitzThat final agreementOct 24 02:04
shreddar 24 02:04
shreddarThat was just class.Oct 24 02:04
schestowitzshreddar: gimpOct 24 02:04
schestowitzjose_X: There's more to IcahnOct 24 02:06
schestowitzIf you look at the massibe banks corruptionOct 24 02:07
schestowitzHe's thereOct 24 02:07
schestowitzIMHO, people like him should be arrestedOct 24 02:07
shreddarI want to know if that Dilbert strip was really talking about MS or just general corporate culture. I'm a Scott Adams fan.Oct 24 02:07
schestowitzHe's the Kissinger/Nixon of commerceOct 24 02:07
schestowitzA bunch of coup-lovin' war criminalsOct 24 02:07
schestowitzshreddar: a reader said it wasOct 24 02:08
schestowitzNot many people do what Gates does at the same scale. Rockefeller didOct 24 02:08
schestowitzIt's usually some of the greater criminal who are forced to do this to get people off their backsOct 24 02:08
*schestowitz disables snow effect on the desktopOct 24 02:09
schestowitzUsing the ASUS Xonar Essence STX Under Linux 24 02:10
shreddarYeah, I hear that Rockefeller was the pioneer of TRUSTs.Oct 24 02:11
schestowitzRick BermanOct 24 02:11
schestowitz 24 02:12
Diablo-D3RAGHOct 24 02:12
Diablo-D3RICK BERMANOct 24 02:12
schestowitz 24 02:12
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[_goblin] News round up #microsoft #linux #windows #bbc #foss #fatELFOct 24 02:12
jose_Xschestowitz, I am going to bed very soon.Oct 24 02:13
schestowitz"Oops Microsoft did it again!"Oct 24 02:13
schestowitz"Whilst our MS Faithful are praising the greatness of Vista 7 and the fact that they can get Vista users upgrading their OS to what Vista should have been in the first place, in the back of their minds must be the news that yet again Microsoft’s profits are down."Oct 24 02:13
jose_Xfrom linuxtoday it seems like vmware might get a linux flavor out. can't wait. (sarcasm)Oct 24 02:14
Diablo-D3I think we may be talking about different rick bermansOct 24 02:14
jose_Xmy lt comment about linus was misunderstoodOct 24 02:14
jose_Xi decided not to take the flame approachOct 24 02:15
jose_Xsee new commentOct 24 02:15
schestowitzjose_X: see my post about it..Oct 24 02:17
schestowitz 24 02:17
schestowitzDiablo-D3: the one I talk about belongs behind barsOct 24 02:17
Diablo-D3the one I talk about does tooOct 24 02:18
schestowitzNasty racism in the comments here: 24 02:20
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oiaohmvmware using Linux kernel is to be predicted they have given approval for there patented techs to be used in it.Oct 24 02:24
schestowitz COOOOOOOOOOOOOl.....Oct 24 02:25
EDavidBurgthey said open source. oh noes!Oct 24 02:25
shreddarSo did HTC make it's own mobile OS?Oct 24 02:27
schestowitzEDavidBurg: ODF+OOoOct 24 02:27
schestowitzFirst step t/w other platformsOct 24 02:27
schestowitz 24 02:28
schestowitz 24 02:28
schestowitzBad Ballmer jumps inOct 24 02:28
EDavidBurgI know, I was poking fun at the people who insist on saying Free Software. :)Oct 24 02:30
schestowitzBlankenhorn seems to have a man.crush() on Asay, still 24 02:30
oiaohmschestowitz: Gallium3D is also funded by vmware.  So Vmware releasing a distribution in time to make some extra profit of the work they do is kinda preditable.Oct 24 02:30
shreddarYa Know I've been thinking about all of the bashing/plastering of Free Software as well as Open Source Software groups.Oct 24 02:30
shreddarIt seems that there is a twist on the Anti-free to make it look anti-consumer.Oct 24 02:31
schestowitzMicrosoft's OSS faker OSS again... 24 02:32
schestowitzAras... *sigh*Oct 24 02:32
schestowitzshreddar: or opposite of "commercial"Oct 24 02:32
schestowitzthe OSS crowd sometimes mollifies the Microsoft talking points/liesOct 24 02:33
shreddarYeah, I mean they make Free Software look like it's bad for customers but in reality it's very pro customer.Oct 24 02:33
schestowitzNot to the marketing sideOct 24 02:35
schestowitz 24 02:35
shreddarIf copy rights, patents, user licenses, DRM, etc weren't being used so heavily it would only promote choice.Oct 24 02:36
shreddarThe only people Free Software is bad for is Software companies because it means more competition and consumer choice.Oct 24 02:36
schestowitzYesOct 24 02:38
schestowitzBut they try to imply we rely on themOct 24 02:38
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] When 100% is not enough... [IMG] 24 02:38
schestowitzAs in, "support the vendor"Oct 24 02:39
schestowitzAnd if $vendor does not get much money, poor sad developers will starveOct 24 02:39
schestowitzIt's the same old lies that MAFIAA usesOct 24 02:39
schestowitz /developers/artists/Oct 24 02:39
oiaohmThis is the stupid part.Oct 24 02:39
oiaohmWhat is the most important thing that must happen to software you want to keep on using.Oct 24 02:39
oiaohmMaintainer ship.Oct 24 02:39
schestowitzThey don't like business models that leave the customer not at point of desparationOct 24 02:39
schestowitzSee, listener can be in controlOct 24 02:40
oiaohmGiving software away for free with no maintainer ship will become a problem.Oct 24 02:40
schestowitzAnd pay upon will buy buying ceoncert ticket/merchandiseOct 24 02:40
schestowitzEquiv. to support contracts and suchOct 24 02:40
schestowitzPeople are not forced toOct 24 02:40
schestowitzThey can use centosOct 24 02:40
oiaohmSo open source world companies pay developers and the like to do maintainer ship on the software they depend on.Oct 24 02:40
schestowitzBut at least there is abundanceOct 24 02:40
oiaohm80 percent of the Linux kernel developers are known to be full time paid to work on it.Oct 24 02:41
schestowitzYes.Oct 24 02:41
oiaohmThe other 20 percent have not declared there statusOct 24 02:41
oiaohmAnd I would not be supprised if a large percentage of them were paid as well.Oct 24 02:41
schestowitzApache is the sameOct 24 02:42
schestowitzBut Apache might even have more devs than LinuxOct 24 02:42
schestowitzThey have many sub-projects]Oct 24 02:42
oiaohmApache developer numbers are large than the Linux kernel and keep the same percentages.  To be correct appache is almost 90 percent paids known.Oct 24 02:42
schestowitzGroklaw worries me.. 24 02:43
oiaohmSimple problem here the ideas that people work on open source for free.Oct 24 02:43
schestowitzShe goes about accusing Monty of being a shill for Microsoft or somethingOct 24 02:43
schestowitzSee update 3Oct 24 02:43
oiaohmIt is not true that most developers in the open source world work for free.Oct 24 02:43
schestowitzMost probably doOct 24 02:44
schestowitzDepends how you define scopeOct 24 02:44
schestowitzI was paid to write some GPL codeOct 24 02:44
schestowitzBut some of the time I wrote it for no payOct 24 02:44
voltronw schestowitz: cool, what project?Oct 24 02:45
schestowitzFS is recognition also of the fact that people code for fun, not just moneyOct 24 02:45
oiaohmMonty has always been a confusing person.Oct 24 02:45
schestowitzSome code for egoOct 24 02:45
oiaohmMonty start off with mysql closed.Oct 24 02:45
schestowitzLike RMS says, "people couldn't believe this could be done"Oct 24 02:45
schestowitzOr something like thatOct 24 02:46
voltronwschestowitz: do you have a link?Oct 24 02:46
schestowitzYes, see my siteOct 24 02:46
oiaohmPeople start off coding for fun.  Take Linus schestowitzOct 24 02:46
voltronwwhere?Oct 24 02:46
schestowitzoiaohm: yesOct 24 02:46
schestowitzvoltronw: "Projects"Oct 24 02:46
schestowitzThere's more under "Research"Oct 24 02:46
oiaohmAnyone with great skills companies will employ to have dependable patch cycle.Oct 24 02:46
schestowitzoiaohm: Linus did an MA out of is, or MScOct 24 02:47
oiaohmEarly on in Linux history Linus only did releases when he had time.Oct 24 02:47
schestowitzHe worked as a TA to carry on coding what started as personal need/advantureOct 24 02:47
schestowitz*AdvantureOct 24 02:47
oiaohmThis is not productive for businesses not to be able to get patches when they need it.Oct 24 02:47
schestowitzSame with WordPress, b2 derivative/successorOct 24 02:47
oiaohmAll open source projects go threw the same kind of live cycle.Oct 24 02:48
oiaohmEven X11 is going threw it.Oct 24 02:48
schestowitz*throughOct 24 02:48
oiaohmYears of choas releasesOct 24 02:48
schestowitzI notice you repeat this typoOct 24 02:48
voltronwschestowitz: you got paid to work on othello master?Oct 24 02:48
schestowitzNo, KMDOct 24 02:48
oiaohmIts shorter to type call me lazy on the through one schestowitz.  I get so many other words wrong what is one more.Oct 24 02:49
schestowitzAnd some smaller projectsOct 24 02:49
schestowitz"thru" is popularOct 24 02:49
schestowitzEven in Microsoft internal mailOct 24 02:49
oiaohmThen once it starts being used by business for making money the release cycles tidy up and paid staff enter.Oct 24 02:50
oiaohmX11 has to have spent the most time in the chaos stage.Oct 24 02:50
voltronwschestowitz: hehe gtk1.4! i remember thatOct 24 02:50
voltronwold schoolOct 24 02:50
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oiaohmI remember gtk 1.0 voltronw  Not fun.Oct 24 02:51
voltronwyeah CListOct 24 02:51
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oiaohmMostly because I had to update a gtk 1.0 app 3 days ago.Oct 24 02:51
voltronwreally frustratingOct 24 02:51
oiaohmYep end up recoding the complete front end it was simpler.Oct 24 02:52
voltronwand the TextView widget would show little arrows when it wrapped lines. eeshOct 24 02:53
oiaohmPeople don't have a clue how far open source world has come voltronwOct 24 02:54
voltronwyeah, kids these days!Oct 24 02:54
schestowitzFirefox was greatOct 24 02:55
shreddarWell, software companies know.Oct 24 02:55
schestowitzIt used to be an arse with Web browsingOct 24 02:55
oiaohmgtk 1.4 is from the year 2000 voltronwOct 24 02:55
schestowitzAccessing banks for instanceOct 24 02:55
schestowitzAlthough Netscape was supported by manyOct 24 02:55
schestowitzThen at a later stage Netscape got neglected and embedded WMP was a PITAOct 24 02:56
oiaohmOpps gtk 1.2 is from the year 2000Oct 24 02:56
schestowitzThen came YouTube and stuffOct 24 02:56
schestowitzFLash videosOct 24 02:56
schestowitzAnd Firefox for browsingOct 24 02:56
schestowitzDownloading .avis gradually became a thing of the pastOct 24 02:56
schestowitzSO there went Linux' multimedia painsOct 24 02:57
schestowitzWine matured for those who needed itOct 24 02:57
oiaohmavi work in xine and mplayerhq as well.Oct 24 02:57
schestowitzKDE was fine for ages, more functional than Mac OS 9 and Windows in its days.... more featuresOct 24 02:57
oiaohmThe break up of DRM techs have helped Linux.Oct 24 02:58
schestowitzoiaohm: yes, zineOct 24 02:58
schestowitz*xineOct 24 02:58
schestowitzAnd xmmsOct 24 02:58
schestowitzBut some stuff was tricky to set upOct 24 02:58
schestowitzNow it's a lot simplerOct 24 02:58
oiaohmThat is the other thing people have missed open source has been fighting and winning wars.Oct 24 02:58
shreddarMan I was one of the first tester of Firefox. I think it was call Phoenix or Firebird. But I just knew there had to be faster browsers out there. It turns out that it was almost right because it was still very much beta.Oct 24 02:58
schestowitzin SuSE I had to get codecs from pacman and a caveman could not install them simplyOct 24 02:58
oiaohmThe samba case to force MS to document stuff.Oct 24 02:58
oiaohmthen ODF war that is on going.Oct 24 02:59
schestowitzI used Firefox 0.9Oct 24 02:59
schestowitzA colleague had me migrate to it from Mozila 1.7Oct 24 02:59
Diablo-D3hehOct 24 02:59
Diablo-D3I used firefox when it didnt even have a nameOct 24 02:59
schestowitzPhoenix>FirebirdOct 24 03:00
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Sir_KonradI listened to Roy Schestowitz on FLOSS Weekly a couple days ago.Oct 24 03:01
shreddarAfter Firefox I tried to go back to IE under the impression that all software should be from the same vender or bugs will happen. That didn't last long though. IE6 was just too slow. Even a buggy browser was preferable.Oct 24 03:01
Sir_KonradI'm just being introduced to Boycott Novell.Oct 24 03:02
Diablo-D3is it me, or was that floss weekly thing kinda lameOct 24 03:02
Sir_KonradI have to say I don't agree with a lot of this stuff, but I find it very interesting.Oct 24 03:02
oiaohmshreddar: funny thing is lot of firefox recent problems have been caused by MS plugins.Oct 24 03:03
Diablo-D3what recent firefox problems?Oct 24 03:03
oiaohmNot running on windows 7Oct 24 03:03
Sir_Konrad(I'm a Windows guy right now. Please forgive me.)Oct 24 03:03
shreddarYou mean the .Net thing.Oct 24 03:03
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shreddarYeah, that's just evil.Oct 24 03:03
Diablo-D3oh, right, I keep forgetting people run on windowsOct 24 03:04
Sir_KonradLOL @ Diablo-D3.Oct 24 03:04
Diablo-D3hey, I was being seriousOct 24 03:04
Sir_KonradGo to your grandma's house and take a look at her PC.Oct 24 03:04
Sir_Konradchances are it's running 98-Vista.Oct 24 03:04
Diablo-D3my grandmother lives with me, and she doesnt have a PC.Oct 24 03:05
Sir_Konradok.Oct 24 03:05
schestowitz 24 03:05
Sir_KonradMy grandma has a Vista laptop.Oct 24 03:05
schestowitzHi, Sir_KonradOct 24 03:05
*Sir_Konrad is now known as Sir_Konrad|AwayOct 24 03:05
Sir_Konrad|Awayhi schestowitz.Oct 24 03:06
Sir_Konrad|AwayI'll be back after a few minutes.Oct 24 03:06
schestowitzOKOct 24 03:06
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willimmhey everybodyOct 24 03:07
schestowitz 24 03:07
schestowitzhey, willimmOct 24 03:07
Diablo-D3ffffffffffffOct 24 03:08
willimmwhat are your ideas, schestorwitz?Oct 24 03:08
Diablo-D3I wish mozilla would keep making projects no one usesOct 24 03:08
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Diablo-D3alsoOct 24 03:08
Diablo-D3how the hell did they turn LCD mode on the text?Oct 24 03:08
willimmschestowitz, how are you?Oct 24 03:09
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willimmschestowitz, hows your "mononono" system?Oct 24 03:10
schestowitzI'm ok, but it's 3am, so I'm off till the morningOct 24 03:10
*shreddar listening to that FLOSS Weekly thing schestomiz was on.Oct 24 03:10
schestowitzshreddar: it was atrociousOct 24 03:10
schestowitzFalse allegation against meOct 24 03:11
willimmDiddn't know it was 3 in the morning. In my time, it's 9:06.Oct 24 03:11
schestowitzBut moreso against others, with me being put in a position to be held accountableOct 24 03:11
willimmbtw, how's your "mononono" system, schestowitz?Oct 24 03:11
EDavidBurgschestowitz: you mean the twitter thing?Oct 24 03:12
*willimm is pondiring trying out LFS now.Oct 24 03:12
EDavidBurgwillimm: good luckOct 24 03:12
EDavidBurgwillimm: see you in a week. :)Oct 24 03:12
schestowitz (Two Linux video editors to watch)  "One of the reasons I haven't done almost any video editing is due to the relative lack of "mature" software for the job in Linux/Unix."Oct 24 03:13
schestowitzThat's a FOSS video editorOct 24 03:13
willimmschestowitz, I asked how your system's going.Oct 24 03:14
schestowitzOn the high-end proprietary side, Linux has the best onesOct 24 03:14
schestowitzwillimm: no mono hereOct 24 03:14
schestowitzI use kdeOct 24 03:14
willimmI'll try KDE too.Oct 24 03:14
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willimmAnd also a GNOME without Mono.Oct 24 03:15
willimmBTW, KDE 3 or 4?Oct 24 03:15
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schestowitzkde4 in mandriva 2010Oct 24 03:16
willimmK.Oct 24 03:16
schestowitz 24 03:16
schestowitzgnOct 24 03:17
willimmYou too.Oct 24 03:18
_goblin3am here for me too...I think im off now...Oct 24 03:23
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-BNc/#boycottnovell-[_goblin] Im off to bed now....."Do unto others as they do unto Gnu"Oct 24 03:26
*Sir_Konrad|Away is now known as Sir_KonradOct 24 03:31
Sir_KonradOk, so I want to know from the adverage user: Why boycott Novell?Oct 24 03:31
-BNi/#boycottnovell-[diablod3/@diablod3] Biden tells Cheney off 24 03:34
EDavidBurgSir_Konrad: because schestowitz says tiOct 24 03:43
EDavidBurgs/ti/toOct 24 03:43
Sir_Konrad...Oct 24 03:43
DaemonFCEDavidBurg, If schestowitz said to jump off a bridge?Oct 24 03:44
Sir_KonradI'm about to move back to Linux, and I'm seriously considering openSUSE.Oct 24 03:44
Sir_KonradBut why should I not?Oct 24 03:44
EDavidBurgDaemonFC: I bring a parachuteOct 24 03:44
EDavidBurgSir_Konrad: they will open your computer and steal your data and sell it to m$$$Oct 24 03:45
Sir_KonradHow do you know EDavidBurg?Oct 24 03:45
Sir_Konradis there proof that it has happened to someone?Oct 24 03:45
EDavidBurgSir_Konrad: I think it's time you adjusted your sarcasm detectometer. :)Oct 24 03:45
Sir_KonradlolOct 24 03:46
Sir_KonradI really would like to know EDavidBurg.Oct 24 03:46
EDavidBurgSir_Konrad: I'm not really the one to askOct 24 03:46
Sir_Konradok.Oct 24 03:46
Sir_KonradI mean is there a problem with MS making a profit off of Linux?Oct 24 03:47
EDavidBurgafter all, I'm just the friendly neighborhood troll...Oct 24 03:47
Sir_KonradlolOct 24 03:47
EDavidBurgSir_Konrad: i'm sure DaemonFC or oiaohm can give you a nice long winded answer on the topicOct 24 03:49
DaemonFCSir_Konrad, None at allOct 24 03:49
DaemonFClots of companies profit off linuxOct 24 03:49
Sir_Konradok DaemonFC, so what's the problem?Oct 24 03:50
DaemonFCmight be nice if they weren't promoting closed formats that are not Linux compatible and waving patents around at the same timeOct 24 03:50
Sir_KonradDaemonFC, so you don't use MP3?Oct 24 03:50
DaemonFCSir_Konrad, My portable plays FLAC and VorbisOct 24 03:51
DaemonFC'I no longer have a use for MP3, and MP3 was never tied to Windows anyway, so why are you using it as an example?Oct 24 03:51
Sir_KonradDaemonFC, I'm trying to figure out what you mean by "closed formats".Oct 24 03:52
DaemonFCIn fact, Microsoft includes only minimal support for MPEG standardsOct 24 03:52
Sir_KonradBut I've never had a use for FLAC or Vorbis because it's a pain to play on OS X and Windows.Oct 24 03:52
DaemonFCtheir Windows Media formats are the only thing Windows supports well out of the box with Microsoft softwareOct 24 03:52
DaemonFCSir_Konrad, Windows Media, Silverlight, etcOct 24 03:52
Sir_KonradDaemonFC, true but MP3 and MPG work nicely.Oct 24 03:53
DaemonFCOOXMLOct 24 03:53
Sir_KonradOk.Oct 24 03:53
Sir_KonradSo do they attempt to promote that with openSUSE?Oct 24 03:53
DaemonFCdocument and multimedia storage formats should never be patentable anywayOct 24 03:53
DaemonFCit's like trying to rip out the roads that everyone uses for free so you can put in your own toll roadOct 24 03:53
DaemonFCSir_Konrad, To an extentOct 24 03:54
Sir_Konradhow?Oct 24 03:54
willimmI have to admit, I once used "Open"Suse, but now, after seeing this website, I never use it anymore.Oct 24 03:54
DaemonFCMono is not .Net, Moonlight won't play most Silverlight stuffOct 24 03:54
oiaohmSir_Konrad: MS avoids supporting any standard they don't control and when they do they normally release broken versions.Oct 24 03:54
DaemonFCthey like to tell you they're MS compatible thoughOct 24 03:54
oiaohmParticular actions MS has done causes people not to trust them Sir_KonradOct 24 03:55
Sir_KonradExample oiaohm?Oct 24 03:55
Sir_KonradVista?Oct 24 03:55
willimmDaemonFC: well, at least Samba removes barriers to networking with Windblows, which is useful, cause I live on a windows network...Oct 24 03:55
DaemonFCwillimm, Samba is not affiliated with MicrosoftOct 24 03:56
willimmDaemonFC: oops.Oct 24 03:56
DaemonFCthe EU ordered Microsoft to open up their SMB and CIFS protocol informationOct 24 03:56
willimmI meant Samba is useful for networking.Oct 24 03:56
willimmsee?Oct 24 03:57
willimmwith windblows...Oct 24 03:57
DaemonFCwillimm, Not Microsoft's intentionOct 24 03:57
oiaohmStarts with kerbous and ldap both used by samba to scale MS networks past NT limits Sir_KonradOct 24 03:57
DaemonFCjust a lucky outcomeOct 24 03:57
Sir_Konrad...Oct 24 03:57
oiaohmMS remade those into ADS with broken protocal form of them Sir_KonradOct 24 03:57
oiaohmSo locking Samba out the game.Oct 24 03:57
Sir_Konradwhat? How will that affect the average Win/Lin user?Oct 24 03:57
willimmy.i.p.eOct 24 03:57
willimmbut at least we can network linux machines togher...Oct 24 03:58
oiaohmMassively Sir_KonradOct 24 03:58
Sir_Konradboth Win and Lin?Oct 24 03:58
oiaohmWindows clients not working correctly with Linux servers.Oct 24 03:58
oiaohmAnd Linux clients not working correctly with windows servers.Oct 24 03:58
oiaohmNice network shatter.Oct 24 03:58
oiaohmReason why it end up in the courts in the EU.Oct 24 03:58
willimmThen what will I do if I need to share my printers on my Windows network?Oct 24 03:58
DaemonFC 24 03:59
oiaohmAnd MS lost of course Sir_KonradOct 24 03:59
Sir_Konradoiaohm, over half of the internet is made of Linux/UNIX servers and millions of Windows clients access them.Oct 24 03:59
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EDavidBurgSir_Konrad: see? told you you'd get your answer.Oct 24 03:59
Sir_Konrad<oiaohm> Reason why it end up in the courts in the EU. <-- sorry, didn't see it.Oct 24 03:59
Sir_Konradlol EDavidBurg. ;POct 24 03:59
Sir_Konradoiaohm, so if they lost then aren't we ok?Oct 24 04:00
oiaohmSir_Konrad: before 2000 samba was taking over the SMB markets.Oct 24 04:00
zer0c00lnOct 24 04:00
willimmi asked: how will get my printer hooked up on my desktop on Linux exposed to the Windows network?Oct 24 04:00
oiaohmThe damage is done Sir_KonradOct 24 04:00
oiaohmUndoing the damage will take a lot of time.Oct 24 04:00
Sir_Konrad<oiaohm> Reason why it end up in the courts in the EU.Oct 24 04:00
oiaohmMS has done it with IE as well to get market share.Oct 24 04:00
Sir_KonradThat means it must be removed right?Oct 24 04:00
oiaohmLOLOct 24 04:01
Sir_Konradquestion: Removed from what? Windows Networking or IE?Oct 24 04:01
willimmdid you answer me?Oct 24 04:01
oiaohmEU ruling is that MS must hand over 100 percent correct documentation Sir_KonradOct 24 04:01
oiaohmMS tried skiping country.Oct 24 04:01
Sir_Konrad<Sir_Konrad> question: Removed from what? Windows Networking or IE?Oct 24 04:01
oiaohmEU took it to USA courts got rule to allow purst in USA if they ran.Oct 24 04:01
*willimm is wondering if you guys answered my question.Oct 24 04:01
oiaohmSo MS now is complining.Oct 24 04:02
oiaohmBasically MS giving a chance with run from a court ruling so avoid having to follow it.Oct 24 04:02
willimmin case you forgot, here is my question again:Oct 24 04:02
willimmhow will get my printer hooked up on my desktop on Linux exposed to the Windows network?Oct 24 04:02
oiaohmSamba is the most common way. willimmOct 24 04:02
willimmTo the Windows machines?Oct 24 04:02
zer0c00lwillimm: yupOct 24 04:03
willimmK.Oct 24 04:03
willimmThanks.Oct 24 04:03
Sir_Konradoiaohm, the way I see it is that 85% of the world is using Windows and this is the first time I've heard this.Oct 24 04:03
oiaohmThen you can also try setting up Unix standard printing.Oct 24 04:03
oiaohmWarning like all open protocal that should be implement correctly on windows it has defects.Oct 24 04:03
oiaohmCost of breaking protocals has been MS getting control Sir_KonradOct 24 04:04
Sir_Konradoiaohm, the reason they got control was because of marketing bake in 1990. Windows boxes were cheaper and almost identical to Mac ones.Oct 24 04:05
Sir_KonradAnd had tons more software.Oct 24 04:05
zer0c00lSir_Konrad: Nope;Oct 24 04:05
Sir_Konradzer0c00l, yup.Oct 24 04:06
oiaohmWhat happen to amiga then Sir_KonradOct 24 04:06
Sir_Konradsame thing oiaohm.Oct 24 04:06
oiaohmIt was cheeper Oct 24 04:06
oiaohmThan windows machinesOct 24 04:06
Sir_KonradThere wern't THAT many networks back then.Oct 24 04:06
Sir_Konradoiaohm, but they were not as universal.Oct 24 04:06
Sir_Konradcheap isn't always "best".Oct 24 04:07
oiaohmDocuments could not be shared.Oct 24 04:07
oiaohmNo MS office and RTF standard was broken by MS.Oct 24 04:07
oiaohmHow can you compete when the standards are broken Sir_KonradOct 24 04:07
Sir_KonradNo. I can open an RTF in Windows 3.1!Oct 24 04:07
oiaohmLOLOct 24 04:07
Sir_Konradwhat standards oiaohm?!Oct 24 04:07
oiaohmMS added non approved extentions in agreement with Apple.Oct 24 04:07
oiaohmSo cutting everyone else out of RTFOct 24 04:08
oiaohmThis standard breaking has been going on for a very long time.Oct 24 04:08
zer0c00lSir_Konrad: They always build "extensions" to keep every one out;Oct 24 04:08
zer0c00lSir_Konrad: AFAIK , they did the same thing too HTMLOct 24 04:08
zer0c00llolOct 24 04:08
Sir_Konradoiaohm, Amiga was bought by Gateway.Oct 24 04:08
zer0c00lAdded their own extensions to HTMLOct 24 04:08
zer0c00lROLFOct 24 04:08
Sir_Konradzer0c00l, All of those things are COMPLETELY universal!Oct 24 04:09
Sir_KonradLOLOct 24 04:09
zer0c00lyup, thats my they made it exclusive to msftOct 24 04:09
zer0c00lsee, they hate anything universalOct 24 04:09
Sir_KonradLOLOct 24 04:09
Sir_Konradhardly.Oct 24 04:10
zer0c00lSir_Konrad: They might have did it with TCP/IPOct 24 04:10
zer0c00llolOct 24 04:10
Sir_KonradMS did release Office 2008 for Mac and they have UNIX programs on the site.Oct 24 04:10
oiaohmEven TCP/IP has been slighting altered.Oct 24 04:10
zer0c00loiaohm: Oh o_OOct 24 04:10
zer0c00loiaohm: AFAIK , they are using BSD's TCP/IP stackOct 24 04:11
oiaohmCatch every alteration they made end up bring down the system.Oct 24 04:11
oiaohmThank god for MS incompetents.Oct 24 04:12
zer0c00loiaohm: well said;Oct 24 04:12
Diablo-D3ms quit using that awhile ago, dudeOct 24 04:12
zer0c00lDiablo-D3: ohOct 24 04:12
oiaohmVista has a new stack.Oct 24 04:12
oiaohmAnd its broken many ways.Oct 24 04:12
zer0c00loiaohm: my poor bro was not able to change his MAC address in vista;Oct 24 04:13
zer0c00loiaohm: They changed the NDIS;Oct 24 04:13
zer0c00loiaohm: Everything has become more restrictive ;Oct 24 04:13
Diablo-D3actually, didnt xp get that new stack?Oct 24 04:13
Sir_KonradWell, I HATE Vista.Oct 24 04:13
Sir_KonradI LOVE 7.Oct 24 04:13
Sir_Konradand 98. ;POct 24 04:13
oiaohmXP still uses the BSD one you can run tests that prove it past question Diablo-D3Oct 24 04:14
oiaohmXP hides it behind the XP firewall.Oct 24 04:14
zer0c00lTCP/IP finger printing?Oct 24 04:14
Diablo-D3the lolwallOct 24 04:14
oiaohmTepOct 24 04:14
zer0c00lDiablo-D3: LOLWALLOct 24 04:14
oiaohmYepOct 24 04:14
zer0c00lDiablo-D3: port monitorOct 24 04:14
oiaohmTCP/IP finger printing to id attackers OS.Oct 24 04:15
oiaohmIt also ID software releationshipsOct 24 04:15
zer0c00lMost windows *firewalls* are port monitors;Oct 24 04:15
oiaohmXP is coded to block particular defective packets.Oct 24 04:16
zer0c00lyeah, they hate filesharing :POct 24 04:16
oiaohmAlso the firewall is hard coded to block particular BSD signature packets.Oct 24 04:17
zer0c00loiaohm:  what if some one disables the firewall?Oct 24 04:18
zer0c00loiaohm: Normally, it wont be that much difficult to adjust parameters like TCP window size,etcOct 24 04:18
zer0c00lTCP/IP finger printing looks for these parameters to find the os;Oct 24 04:19
zer0c00lLinux's TCP/IP stack has its own tcp window size;Oct 24 04:19
oiaohmzer0c00l: disable firewall you can see it.Oct 24 04:19
zer0c00loiaohm: oh?Oct 24 04:19
zer0c00loiaohm: really?Oct 24 04:20
oiaohmYes really.Oct 24 04:20
zer0c00loiaohm: whats the software you use for fingerprinting ?Oct 24 04:20
oiaohmThere is also what is called active finger printing.Oct 24 04:20
zer0c00loiaohm: i use nmap;Oct 24 04:20
oiaohmWere you send packet to trigger particular flaws.Oct 24 04:20
oiaohmnmap is passive.Oct 24 04:20
zer0c00loiaohm: yeah;Oct 24 04:20
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zer0c00loiaohm: so, whats the tool you use?Oct 24 04:21
oiaohmActive is an attack class tool.Oct 24 04:21
oiaohmSince it causes like bluescreens of death or OS crashs as part of the ID process.Oct 24 04:21
zer0c00lThere is a tool named "active" ?Oct 24 04:22
oiaohmNoOct 24 04:22
oiaohmThe tool can be abused zer0c00lOct 24 04:22
zer0c00loiaohm: Every tools can be abusedOct 24 04:22
oiaohmIts a destructive test that shows you the releation ship.Oct 24 04:22
oiaohmNot at this level.Oct 24 04:23
zer0c00loiaohm: what are the "active" tools you use?Oct 24 04:23
oiaohmThey are a lists of known exploits with code to exploit it.Oct 24 04:23
oiaohmWhat is exploitable tells you the releation ships.Oct 24 04:24
oiaohmBSD stack MS uses is old with a lot of different know exploits as there base.   Over the years those faults did not disappear even that they disappears from the BSD stack.Oct 24 04:25
oiaohmYes you can even age the source they are using as a base by it defects.Oct 24 04:25
*shreddar finished watching FLOSS WeeklyOct 24 04:26
oiaohmPassive finger printing depends on packets a OS will normally send.  Active finger printing depends on how the OS reacts to the list of packets you send.Oct 24 04:26
shreddarIt wasn't sooooo bad.Oct 24 04:26
oiaohmActive finger printing also can get you into legal trouble quicky.Oct 24 04:26
zer0c00llaterOct 24 04:27
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oiaohmCode and DNA identifying has a lot in common.Oct 24 04:28
shreddarJono Bacon kinda made it look like a 2 sided argument. Except he mostly seemed to just reference the argument. Which was "is BN bad for open source?".Oct 24 04:29
-BNi/#boycottnovell-[sagarun/@sagarun] Monthly maintenance power cut today :(Oct 24 04:29
oiaohmMS basicaly had to replace the network stack in Vista.  They just could not patch it any more.Oct 24 04:30
shreddarHe seems to have the point of view that because MS and Novell are companies anything they do is perfectly alright because it's the norm or it's what's expected.Oct 24 04:31
oiaohmThat is a bit like saying slavery is all right because it was the norm.Oct 24 04:36
shreddarWell, I may be speculating here though.Oct 24 04:37
shreddarThere are other philosophies besides doing right by the customer. Oct 24 04:38
shreddarSome like to see the companies and customers in a marriage type of relationship.Oct 24 04:39
oiaohmThat is how it should work.Oct 24 04:41
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fewa"when you securitize you create a new assymetry of information"Oct 24 04:43
shreddarI guess it can be like a marriage but I tend relate it to a employee/employer relationship. Oct 24 04:48
fewamarriage?Oct 24 04:49
fewaonly if its like 18th century marriageOct 24 04:50
fewaand still thats a huge strechOct 24 04:50
fewaoiaohm, slavery was only justified to the extent that it was neccicary to enable a economic model Oct 24 04:50
fewaand only if you accept that economic modelOct 24 04:51
fewain People's History of the United States Zinn states hows racism in the US was created to enable the plantation economic modelOct 24 04:51
fewathat iniatially Africans were indentured servents, but that was unsustainable--it would lead to uprisingsOct 24 04:52
fewaseperating Caucasian and African second generationsOct 24 04:52
shreddarI guess the real problem is he (jono) wants to believe that commercial interests can and will help customer interests. But in practice that not the case. It's very natural for a company to want to be the only supplier of a product and not have any competition.Oct 24 04:55
fewayes, there are two impediments to a sharing of interests: monopoly interests, and information asymmetryOct 24 04:56
oiaohmshreddar: How does that explain cisco systems.Oct 24 04:57
oiaohmCisco systems want to provide there customer with best product so will buy products from others to be rebranded as there own.Oct 24 04:57
oiaohmAlso due to wanting development Cisco has not tried to destroy the likes of 3com or netgear and others that they source some of there gear from.Oct 24 04:58
fewamarkets are only efficient for completely undifferentiated commoditiesOct 24 04:59
shreddarWell, I guess that's good for Cisco. But what if other companies made the same product better?Oct 24 05:01
oiaohmProblem is lot of companies have the wrong model.Oct 24 05:01
oiaohmCisco will buy it from who ever makes the product better so clients can trust the results they get shreddarOct 24 05:02
oiaohmIts benifit for the makers of the product, Client and CiscoOct 24 05:02
fewacisco is expensiveOct 24 05:02
shreddarOK so basically it's a brand type of deal.Oct 24 05:03
oiaohmYepOct 24 05:03
fewaall the tech aware corps use juniperOct 24 05:03
fewathey do make very sexy routers however 24 05:04
oiaohmshreddar: what do you have if you have bad brand.Oct 24 05:04
oiaohmThat don't deliver results.Oct 24 05:04
shreddarNo customersOct 24 05:04
oiaohmNo MS shreddar most customers hate them yet use them because they have no other option.Oct 24 05:04
fewawhoops, here is the sexy one 24 05:05
EDavidBurgoiaohm: says who?Oct 24 05:05
fewacode name of HFR, or Huge Fucking RouterOct 24 05:05
fewa10Tbps total bandwidthOct 24 05:06
shreddarIn the end though you have to establish yourself in the market. Either with unique service or unique products otherwise any gain you make will be at the expense of competitors and vice versa.Oct 24 05:09
fewaaugment the marketOct 24 05:10
shreddarThe easiest way to do it is to have a monopoly over the product or service.Oct 24 05:10
fewaby providing something newOct 24 05:10
oiaohmPeople forget MS was the cheapest OS out there.Oct 24 05:11
oiaohmAs competition was reduced price went up.Oct 24 05:12
fewathat was the strategy from the beginningOct 24 05:12
fewaits the propaganda machine that changes historyOct 24 05:12
fewatheir strategy in the US was what it is now in chinaOct 24 05:13
fewamake it freeOct 24 05:13
fewaencourage copyingOct 24 05:13
oiaohmThat is documented fewaOct 24 05:14
EDavidBurgfewa: right; i'm sure bill gates intended on taking over the world when he was sitting in an office in albuquerque in 1975 hacking for MITSOct 24 05:14
oiaohmIn MS paperwork about china and pirate software.Oct 24 05:14
fewayes, and Bill Gates interviewOct 24 05:14
oiaohmEDavidBurg: I ask you a simple question is Bill Gates a Programmer.Oct 24 05:14
EDavidBurgoiaohm: yesOct 24 05:14
oiaohmOk sorry wrong.Oct 24 05:14
oiaohmBill Gates is an accountant.Oct 24 05:15
EDavidBurghow is he not a programmer?Oct 24 05:15
fewa 24 05:15
fewa"Someday they will, though. As long as they are going to steal it, we want them to steal ours. They'll get sort of addicted, and then we'll somehow figure out how to collect sometime in the next decade."-BillGOct 24 05:16
fewabut that was also the strategy in the USOct 24 05:16
fewaduring DOSOct 24 05:16
oiaohmHe was the beta tester for the language basic by the coder who created basic the start point of MS EDavidBurgOct 24 05:16
oiaohmCatch is the first programmer was not what you call a book keeper.Oct 24 05:17
oiaohmAll companies need both someone to look after the books and someone todo the work.Oct 24 05:17
EDavidBurgoiaohm: paul allen and bill gates wrote Altair BASICOct 24 05:18
oiaohmpaul allen is the coder.Oct 24 05:18
oiaohmbill gates is the tester.Oct 24 05:18
oiaohmBill gates course was to be an accountant.  Not programming.  Little fact people like to forget about.Oct 24 05:19
shreddarWhat often happens with companies is that they go out of business because they couldn't keep up with competition. It's hard to make a successful and keep it successful. Things happen.Oct 24 05:19
oiaohmDepends if the competition is fair or not shreddarOct 24 05:20
oiaohmLot of companies go out of business due to product dumping on markets and other things.Oct 24 05:20
EDavidBurgyou guys are really determined not to give Bill Gates credit for anything positive, huh?Oct 24 05:20
shreddarEither way lack of foresight on the part of the company or just lack of information can have and effect overnight.Oct 24 05:21
shreddarBusiness is hard and they try to make things as predictable as possible.Oct 24 05:23
shreddarHaving no possible competition is the ultimate form of this for them.Oct 24 05:25
oiaohmNo I do EDavidBurg bill gates did create some good basic examples in the alter basic manual fincal usage.Oct 24 05:26
oiaohmIt also took a lot of skill to take a company from nothing to a huge company.Oct 24 05:26
oiaohmI just wish he had done it without doing some of the evils.Oct 24 05:27
oiaohmThe thing that annoys me is people like Paul allen who should have been known by everyone are not because the credit was miss directed.Oct 24 05:28
oiaohmRemember Paul allen could not created a simple program language without someone to tell him when he had made stuff too complex for normal people.Oct 24 05:30
oiaohmA tester is quite an important role to producing good product.Oct 24 05:30
oiaohmI really do thing is funny that Bill gates had to be made appear to be a programmer instead of a tester because a tester is a too lowly thing to be.Oct 24 05:34
shreddarI just understand why they gravitate towards anti-consumer practices. I won't excuse them for it though.Oct 24 05:35
shreddarIt's just everyone should alway pay close attention to companies if they think that they will not go anti-consumer because it's quite easy to think that way in business.Oct 24 05:37
oiaohmBeing a non coder also makes it worse.Oct 24 05:37
oiaohmSince a non coder cannot depend on there skills or creatively to dig there way out.Oct 24 05:37
oiaohmSo only option is to control the market.Oct 24 05:37
oiaohmunderstanding what Gates was explains why particular things were done.Oct 24 05:38
oiaohmBest motivator of all Fear.Oct 24 05:38
shreddarI think the issue with companies is the issues with the human race. That is security vs love.Oct 24 05:45
oiaohmAnd lies to hide the truth shreddarOct 24 05:46
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shreddarI still can't grasp the issues with Jono but he seems to think that Free Software purists are just anti-corporations but it's more to do with being pro freedom.Oct 24 05:51
shreddarIf corporations are trying to take away some of are freedoms then naturally we are against it.Oct 24 05:54
oiaohmthat is the MS idea.Oct 24 05:54
oiaohmMS depends on selling people binary blobs.Oct 24 05:54
oiaohmIts more they are so use to the MS model they cannot wrap there mind around how the other models operateOct 24 05:55
oiaohmBeing very pro businessOct 24 05:55
oiaohmThe other models are quite simple.  If you use something and don't support it don't depend on it working for you long term.Oct 24 05:56
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fewa<shreddar> Free Software purists are just anti-corporations but it's more to do with being pro freedom.Oct 24 06:07
fewaagreedOct 24 06:07
fewapeople are not against corporations because of some abstract philosophyOct 24 06:08
fewathey are against corporations when those corporations stand in their way, or hold society backOct 24 06:08
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oiaohmReally its hard to be anti corporation when you wake up that most Open Source/Free software events are funded by companies.Oct 24 06:12
fewaexactlyOct 24 06:12
fewaits the type of corporationOct 24 06:12
fewathere is no rule that corporations cannot represent the interests of their employees or other stakeholdersOct 24 06:13
shreddarI think Jono's issue goes all the old argument that if creators didn't have this control over the market they'd be less inclined to put out valuable works. But the truth is there are no assurances in business even with patent, copyright, and trademarks. There's is always the possibility someone will compete with you and win or even that you loose before you even step to the plate.Oct 24 06:13
oiaohmWorse shreddar lock you out.Oct 24 06:13
fewasoftware patent monopolies are evil and anti-competitionOct 24 06:14
oiaohmLot of open source world items are too expensive for any 1 company to make.Oct 24 06:14
oiaohmLike a OS with as much hardware support as Linux Kernel has.Oct 24 06:14
oiaohmNo single company world wide could afford to make i.Oct 24 06:15
oiaohmit.Oct 24 06:15
oiaohmAt some point costs have to be shared.   Even MS is aware of this why there have stable binary driver interface.   Without it MS could not afford to make windows.Oct 24 06:16
fewayepOct 24 06:18
fewa"evangalism is war" mentions thisOct 24 06:18
oiaohmPeople also forget before Linux.  BSD was used to share tech between Unix's.Oct 24 06:18
fewaand X11Oct 24 06:18
oiaohmWithout BSD lot of the Unix's could not have existed just on simple cost factors.Oct 24 06:18
fewaWindwos also used lots of BSDOct 24 06:19
oiaohmBasically open source is important.Oct 24 06:19
fewaproblem with BSD was it was too openOct 24 06:19
fewawhy it couldn't become LinuxOct 24 06:19
fewalets companies create propritary forks, taking away others freedomsOct 24 06:20
oiaohmI always put up a funny one lets remove everything from this room that would not exist without open source.Oct 24 06:21
oiaohmThe results are quite supprising to most people.Oct 24 06:21
fewathe internetOct 24 06:22
oiaohmTV fewaOct 24 06:22
fewathere are few non open source TCP/IP implamentationsOct 24 06:22
oiaohmEven lot of radio depends on open source in places.Oct 24 06:22
fewaand they were all made my incumbent corporationsOct 24 06:23
fewanot to mention apacheOct 24 06:23
fewaits like NaderOct 24 06:23
oiaohmThe lot of production systems also run on Linux and BSD to build cars.Oct 24 06:23
fewapeople don't see all the things they got from his workOct 24 06:23
oiaohmBasically once you take away everything that has open source somewhere in its production you are lucky if the room is still there.Oct 24 06:24
fewa 24 06:24
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fewa# Clean Air ActOct 24 06:24
fewa# Clean Water Act Oct 24 06:24
fewaetcOct 24 06:24
oiaohmMost of those should be slighly reword.Oct 24 06:25
oiaohmAcceptabley Clean Air ActOct 24 06:25
fewaI believe it was landmark internationallyOct 24 06:25
fewaat the timeOct 24 06:25
oiaohmAnd acceptable by who standard.Oct 24 06:26
fewaso maybe for today it is "acceptabley"Oct 24 06:26
fewabut not when passedOct 24 06:26
fewathere was some landmarks environment legislation passedOct 24 06:26
oiaohmScary things are happening here.Oct 24 06:26
fewaAirbags, SeatbeltsOct 24 06:26
oiaohmPower stations are looking to convert over to coal gas.Oct 24 06:26
fewa#Oct 24 06:27
fewa# Occupational Safety and Health Act (OSHA) Oct 24 06:27
fewaalso landmarkOct 24 06:27
oiaohmIncluding the insane of burning the coal underground to product gas to run power station.Oct 24 06:27
fewathe main industry criticised: autosOct 24 06:29
fewanever learned, howeverOct 24 06:29
fewagreed, greed, greedOct 24 06:29
oiaohmAutos are not that great on effectiveness.Oct 24 06:30
fewain the 70s they increased hugely on efficiencyOct 24 06:31
fewaand then completely plateued with ReagenOct 24 06:31
fewawho was preoccupied with dismantling and reversing all progress Oct 24 06:31
oiaohmStill compared to large scale coal gas not that effective.Oct 24 06:31
fewathe US could we on all electric/plug in hybridOct 24 06:31
oiaohmDoes not work that great.Oct 24 06:32
fewaif it wasn't for collusive and lobbying action by the auto companiesOct 24 06:32
oiaohmWeight of batteries under mins the effectiveness.Oct 24 06:32
fewathe technology existed in the late 70sOct 24 06:32
*shreddar is going to get ready for sleep.Oct 24 06:32
fewaoiaohm, nopeOct 24 06:32
shreddarBye ya'll.Oct 24 06:32
oiaohmSupper caps are being used on some busses.Oct 24 06:32
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fewabatteries much lighter than highly enefficient engineOct 24 06:33
oiaohmDue to less weight.Oct 24 06:33
fewawatch "who killed the electric car"Oct 24 06:33
fewanot the greatest movieOct 24 06:33
fewabut stillOct 24 06:33
fewaelectric cars are readyOct 24 06:33
fewaand have beenOct 24 06:33
oiaohmSo a 8 cildner that weights 4 kg's electric can beat.Oct 24 06:33
oiaohmI don't think so.Oct 24 06:33
fewathe combuston engine is 30% efficientOct 24 06:34
oiaohmCermic engine blocksOct 24 06:34
fewaits just apocryphalOct 24 06:34
fewaand it costs a tremendous amount to repair all these enginesOct 24 06:34
oiaohm30 is in iron based.Oct 24 06:34
fewawhich would disappear overnight with electric carsOct 24 06:34
oiaohmNote I did not say what the 8 cil uses.Oct 24 06:35
oiaohmAIR instead of electicOct 24 06:35
oiaohmsneaky devil engine.  Part air part fuel and able to swap between on need.Oct 24 06:36
fewaAIR is much lower energy density than electricOct 24 06:36
fewathe EV1 had 110-160 miles rangeOct 24 06:37
fewaas a fully electric carOct 24 06:37
fewadensity of batteries is not a problemOct 24 06:38
fewa 24 06:38
oiaohm  I don't see what such a short range is impressive fewa.Oct 24 06:39
fewaits long enoughOct 24 06:39
fewaoiaohm, so is it liquid air?Oct 24 06:40
fewaaka liquid nitrogen?Oct 24 06:40
oiaohmBasically.Oct 24 06:40
fewawonder what the denity isOct 24 06:40
fewa*energy densityOct 24 06:40
fewaalso that range is probably highly unrealisticOct 24 06:41
fewatotally flatOct 24 06:41
fewaand a air power car probably is unable to put braking energy back into storageOct 24 06:41
oiaohmthey can fewaOct 24 06:41
fewacompression breaking :POct 24 06:41
oiaohmYep good old well tested compression breaking.Oct 24 06:42
fewawill need to change some munipalities lawsOct 24 06:42
fewawhich ban itOct 24 06:42
oiaohmOver all AIR is simpler.Oct 24 06:42
oiaohmMajor headaches is the compression tanks.Oct 24 06:42
fewahow do you change it up?Oct 24 06:43
fewaget your own compressor?Oct 24 06:43
oiaohmCan be fewaOct 24 06:43
fewawonder what its DOT range would beOct 24 06:43
oiaohmYou can use items like stirling engines to run compressors as well.Oct 24 06:43
fewayes cylendrical compressorsOct 24 06:44
fewathose are coolOct 24 06:44
fewacontinuous compressionOct 24 06:44
oiaohmThe major advantage of air is you don't have to take a either or method.Oct 24 06:45
fewahow does the leverage work on powering the axels?Oct 24 06:45
oiaohmIt is possible to design a block to run on both air and normal fuel.  Just they are not cheep to make ie metal is out.Oct 24 06:45
fewamehOct 24 06:45
fewashould be seperateOct 24 06:45
oiaohmBoth fuel and air need same kinds of things.Oct 24 06:46
fewanot reallyOct 24 06:46
oiaohmA leak free chamber.Oct 24 06:46
fewathey are totally differntOct 24 06:46
fewaair needs no compression stageOct 24 06:47
fewaair engine seems much easierOct 24 06:47
fewaand can be completely free of vibration and noiseOct 24 06:47
oiaohmfor regenation breaking on engine compression stage is useful to air.Oct 24 06:47
oiaohmThere are a lot of overlap fewa when you try to make air engine do everything to be max effective.Oct 24 06:48
fewaI dont see itOct 24 06:49
fewaseems totally differntOct 24 06:49
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fewaair is massively simplerOct 24 06:49
fewaof course you still need batteryOct 24 06:49
fewafor lights, etcOct 24 06:49
oiaohmNot realy fewaOct 24 06:49
oiaohmYou only really need a large cap.Oct 24 06:49
fewadont see why you would want to generate electricity on boardOct 24 06:49
oiaohmReally you have to fewaOct 24 06:50
oiaohmYou don't want to be driving at night without lights.Oct 24 06:50
oiaohmJust because the battery is flat and you have air left.Oct 24 06:50
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fewayou dont want to be driving and run out of airOct 24 06:52
fewameh, that up to debateOct 24 06:52
fewawith fast charging batteries like are available however, you could have bothOct 24 06:52
oiaohmIf car is out of air it has to stay put.Oct 24 06:52
fewaand have something very simplerOct 24 06:52
oiaohmSuper cap charges simpler.Oct 24 06:52
fewavery simplyOct 24 06:52
fewa*simpleOct 24 06:52
oiaohmand lasts better than batteriesOct 24 06:53
oiaohmAnd lighter.Oct 24 06:53
oiaohmBasically why carry more than what you have to.  You need a larger batter in a car because you need it to start it.Oct 24 06:53
oiaohmPeople forget some early cars were without a battery as well.Oct 24 06:54
fewayi know thatOct 24 06:54
fewabattery is for startingOct 24 06:54
oiaohmAIR don't need power other than the air to start.Oct 24 06:54
fewano shitOct 24 06:55
fewait never really "starts" eitherOct 24 06:55
fewait just goesOct 24 06:55
oiaohmUnless someone is stupid in the design.Oct 24 06:55
fewaif its a well designed engineOct 24 06:55
fewastill you havn't answed, what types of engines?Oct 24 06:55
oiaohmThere are 4 different types for air.Oct 24 06:56
oiaohmTurbine based that are not that great.  piston based that are close to current day fuel.  Rotray engines and I cannot remember the 4 that is is a rotray but really strange.Oct 24 06:57
fewarotary makes most senseOct 24 06:57
fewaor a reverse continuous compression engineOct 24 06:57
fewano vibrationOct 24 06:57
fewai also asked this earlierOct 24 06:58
fewahow do you "shift"Oct 24 06:58
fewaor do you not?Oct 24 06:58
fewado you use a regular transmission?Oct 24 06:58
oiaohmLike a regular transmission.   Weight again.Oct 24 06:59
fewastill much lighterOct 24 06:59
oiaohmcurrent regular transmissions are very heavy due to what they are constructed from.Oct 24 06:59
fewayou could make a very light air automobileOct 24 06:59
oiaohmAnd you can even get creative with the expeld air using it to cool the transmission.Oct 24 07:00
oiaohmOf course that helps with size a bit.Oct 24 07:01
fewaalso, how do you deal with the cooling?Oct 24 07:01
fewaand how do you deal with heating---a problem no eternal combustion engine car hasOct 24 07:01
fewakeeping the cabin warmOct 24 07:01
fewaeasy to keep it coolOct 24 07:01
oiaohmAircon is used for cooling most cars anyhow.Oct 24 07:02
fewaoiaohm, noOct 24 07:02
fewathe cylandar would be very coldOct 24 07:02
oiaohmAnd if tanks contain normal air.Oct 24 07:02
fewabeing decompressedOct 24 07:02
fewano need for airconOct 24 07:02
oiaohmYou can even avoid in cab fan.Oct 24 07:02
oiaohmand pulling lots of air from out side at times.Oct 24 07:02
oiaohmReally air cars can be really nice on people in them if they are done right.Oct 24 07:03
fewaI want oneOct 24 07:03
oiaohmThe air is a lot of usable than batteries.Oct 24 07:03
oiaohmEven if it batteries can do higher density.Oct 24 07:03
fewa?Oct 24 07:05
oiaohmHeating is the tricky bit.Oct 24 07:05
fewaif the density is the same electric would be more efficientOct 24 07:05
fewaand the engines highly developedOct 24 07:05
fewaand charging easier and more availableOct 24 07:05
oiaohmSome heat can be sourced out of transmission and other frituion areas.Oct 24 07:06
oiaohmYou can also use heat pipe systems to aquire so much heat from out side.Oct 24 07:06
fewaouw site?Oct 24 07:06
fewaout side is coldOct 24 07:06
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oiaohmHeat pipe systems can do upto 10 degree diff fewaOct 24 07:07
fewaheat transferOct 24 07:07
oiaohmYes that does help a little.Oct 24 07:07
fewareverse airconOct 24 07:07
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oiaohmBasically reverse aircon.Oct 24 07:07
DaemonFCCarly Fiorina, the idiot that ruined HP, is trying to become a US senator from CaliforniaOct 24 07:08
DaemonFC 24 07:08
oiaohmFor areas like north sections of australia  heating car is mostly not a issue fewaOct 24 07:08
oiaohmcooling is the major heat ache that air by its nature deals with.Oct 24 07:08
oiaohmNote electric don't help you heat or cool.Oct 24 07:09
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[scientes] NM Gov. Bill Richardson admits #Honduras #coup , and calling for normalization of #Cuba #USA relations on CSPAN3 24 07:11
fewaoiaohm, electric generates some heatOct 24 07:11
fewabut yesOct 24 07:11
fewaits mainly just a new issueOct 24 07:11
fewaas eternal combustion engine is so inefficient it was never a probOct 24 07:11
oiaohmAIR also gets lighter the lower its charge is as well fewaOct 24 07:12
fewasame with fossil fuelsOct 24 07:12
oiaohmThis helps with range.Oct 24 07:12
fewathats a big issue on airplanesOct 24 07:12
fewayou can land on a shorter runway with low tanks than full onesOct 24 07:12
oiaohmif it was cheep to make fuel cells electric would not have big difference here.Oct 24 07:13
oiaohmAlso recharging fuel cells is not simple as doing compression for air.Oct 24 07:13
oiaohmBasically electric is a big complex mess.Oct 24 07:13
fewa"fuel cells" is bullshitOct 24 07:14
fewawait ur talking compressed air?Oct 24 07:14
oiaohmI was talking about getting electric the same weight reductiing advantage of air and fossil fuels fewaOct 24 07:15
oiaohmI know of no other way other than fuel cells to give electric that fewaOct 24 07:15
fewahydrogen is bullshitOct 24 07:16
fewamost overhyped non-existant technology everOct 24 07:16
fewaand utterly worthlessOct 24 07:16
oiaohmHydrogen tech exists.Oct 24 07:17
oiaohmThere are some normal engines that can run on it.Oct 24 07:17
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fewahow do you make the hydrogen?Oct 24 07:17
oiaohmAgain hydrogen has the opps it leaks it just blow the crap out of stuff problem.Oct 24 07:17
fewaHow do you compress it?Oct 24 07:18
fewahow do make an engine that is at all efficient for a reasonable amount of money?Oct 24 07:18
fewaits a jokeOct 24 07:18
fewaits so far from being doableOct 24 07:18
fewafrom being implamentedOct 24 07:18
oiaohmIts more the big bang problem.Oct 24 07:18
fewaand _its not a source of energy_Oct 24 07:18
oiaohmLot of high pressure air tank design for the air car coming are from the hydrogen car experments.Oct 24 07:19
fewawhich is what the human race actually needsOct 24 07:19
oiaohmPlease note most ended scarylyOct 24 07:19
oiaohmOpps hydrgon leak then spark you don't want to be near it.Oct 24 07:19
oiaohmBasically we could build a hydrogen car any time we liked.Oct 24 07:20
oiaohmThinking you can use a normal engine block and all.Oct 24 07:20
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[scientes] John McCain Wants to #censor the Internet pushes telecom #AT&T #Verizon talking points #NetNeutralityOct 24 07:21
oiaohmBut getting road approval with the big bang problem is not going to happen fewa.Oct 24 07:21
oiaohmIt makes natural gas look safe.Oct 24 07:21
fewagive it up Oct 24 07:21
fewait will never happenOct 24 07:22
fewaits 40 years away until 40 years from todayOct 24 07:22
oiaohmthat is what started the experments on these air cars.Oct 24 07:22
oiaohmAir don't exploide if it leaks.Oct 24 07:22
oiaohmAs long as the tank does not explode you home safe and sound.Oct 24 07:23
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[scientes] John McCain Wants to #censor the Internet pushes telecom #AT&T #Verizon talking points #NetNeutrality #hr3458 is the fixOct 24 07:23
oiaohmWith the air cars we do have to thank the ones expermenting with hydrogen for design such great high pressure tanks.Oct 24 07:24
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[scientes] RT @kardain @senjohnmccain #NetNeutrality will not stifle, but hold ISPs accountable for unfair business practices #hr3458Oct 24 07:26
oiaohmYou are also aware of these fuel cells fewa  That could be used as a power source for electic problem is there is no simple way to recharge them.Oct 24 07:27
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[scientes] RT @bigshow @senjohnmccain you don't understand computers but are opposing #NetNeutrality while taking money from telecoms? fix with #hr1826Oct 24 07:30
oiaohm  And its releation fewa.  Have used these for server room power supplies.  Since you can fuel them up while they are running.Oct 24 07:31
fewawhy not just use existing NiMH and LiOn batteries?Oct 24 07:31
oiaohmRecharge time fewaOct 24 07:31
oiaohmAnd space.Oct 24 07:32
fewarecharge time is very goodOct 24 07:32
fewaand going down quickOct 24 07:32
fewacan be reduced to 5 minutesOct 24 07:32
fewawith limit being amps in housesOct 24 07:32
oiaohmNot as fast as filling a tank up.Oct 24 07:32
fewapeople charge at homeOct 24 07:32
fewayou cant fill up your tank at homeOct 24 07:32
fewayou just plug in when you get homeOct 24 07:33
fewathat is pretty easyOct 24 07:33
fewaand never go to a gas station againOct 24 07:33
oiaohmAir systems can have a high pressure fill tank at home.Oct 24 07:33
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fewayesOct 24 07:33
fewastill havn't seen enginesOct 24 07:33
fewaor weather then can recharge with brakingOct 24 07:34
fewabut could happenOct 24 07:34
fewastill seems like woorse range and energy densityOct 24 07:34
fewaand i wonder about efficiency of rechargingOct 24 07:34
fewaelectric is here nowOct 24 07:35
oiaohm  That is a piston type.Oct 24 07:35
oiaohmThere are quite a few air class fewaOct 24 07:35
oiaohm  These are used inside food areas were normal fuel cannot be used without risking containation.  Its the odd rottray I was thinking of fewaOct 24 07:37
fewabut yeah air seems coolOct 24 07:38
fewaI want oneOct 24 07:38
oiaohmAir is also more pratical you think of the matterials you need to make it as well fewaOct 24 07:40
oiaohmYou don't need toxic chemicals and other nastys.Oct 24 07:41
fewaLiOn is pretty good, but yesOct 24 07:43
oiaohmLot of focus is on electric fewa.  People are over looking the most clean AIR.Oct 24 07:43
oiaohmIf you go to india you can buy a air car.Oct 24 07:44
oiaohmYes it sux at times to be in a so called developed country.Oct 24 07:44
fewathe US is way behindOct 24 07:44
fewaand based on carsOct 24 07:44
fewathe cooptation is criminalOct 24 07:45
oiaohmWhat sux more is the air engine designed here in australian cannot get funding to be developed into a car.Oct 24 07:46
oiaohmYou don't have the pain of having the tech sitting down the road and not able to use it.Oct 24 07:47
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oiaohm  Here is the australian one with video so you can see inside the engine fewa.Oct 24 07:50
fewaoh coolOct 24 07:51
fewahow much?Oct 24 07:51
fewarange? cost? speed?Oct 24 07:51
fewa 24 07:52
fewathats pretty coolOct 24 07:52
fewaI want it :POct 24 07:54
oiaohmReally in food markets it should really be the only engine.Oct 24 07:55
fewawhat are those ones in airports?Oct 24 07:56
oiaohmI don't really want petrol or gas fumes in my food.Oct 24 07:56
fewamust be electricOct 24 07:56
oiaohmHere mixture of both.Oct 24 07:56
oiaohmUSA most likely 100 percent electric.Oct 24 07:56
oiaohmI don't know of anyone over there doing air engines in volume.Oct 24 07:56
oiaohmBig thing here in Australia air car is used some place in airports were sparks could be an issue.  Air what spark. Oct 24 08:01
fewapurely mechanical controls?Oct 24 08:10
fewaand mechanical power steering?Oct 24 08:11
oiaohmyes australian air engine can be done with those.Oct 24 08:13
oiaohmTo be correct air assisted steering can be done.Oct 24 08:13
oiaohmBut a lot of those small vechines don't need power stearing.  Driver just has to be a little stronger.Oct 24 08:15
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-BNc/#boycottnovell-[scientes] #OpenSource America's Operating System It's not just a good idea, it's the #law : History of open source law @carlmalamudOct 24 08:20
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-BNc/#boycottnovell-[popey] Woken at 07:30 by @ceimon who sorted us out with a new room. Now have a room with wifi! #lrl2009Oct 24 08:23
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_goblinGood morning all...Oct 24 09:43
schestowitzHeyOct 24 09:43
_goblinEdavidburg - Been up to his old tricks.  He is trying to trap people here.Oct 24 09:43
_goblin;wap2Oct 24 09:43
schestowitzOh noOct 24 09:43
schestowitzDon't link to that siteOct 24 09:43
schestowitzYou encourage them.. BOTH of themOct 24 09:44
_goblinoops...Oct 24 09:44
schestowitz*LOL* Core OpenSUSE guy installs Ubuntu 24 09:44
_goblinDid you see the BBC coverage of Ubuntu?Oct 24 09:45
schestowitzI haven't, no.Oct 24 09:46
schestowitzThompson seems like the only person there who might cover it properlyOct 24 09:47
_goblinthey made a balls up of it...Oct 24 09:48
schestowitzMost people there (beeb) are Windows-only users who would recite what they read somewhere about this ubunut lunix thingOct 24 09:48
_goblin"here’s something called ‘Ubuntu’ which is launched next week. It’s a whole sort of little community of enthusiasts building operating systems for absolutely nothing and trying to persuade us that we don’t need to be in with the big boys but actually most computer users frankly they don’t want to bother with that sort of stuff they want something that’s there…"Oct 24 09:49
schestowitz"It's all command line!!!"Oct 24 09:49
schestowitz"Good for servers..."Oct 24 09:49
schestowitz_goblin: see what I mean?Oct 24 09:49
schestowitzThey get it wrongOct 24 09:49
schestowitzIt's not built by volunteersOct 24 09:49
_goblinits rich when the MS faithful mention the CLI....MS have just spent time revamping theirs into Powershell...Oct 24 09:49
schestowitzIt's built by companies to a great extentOct 24 09:49
schestowitzGoogle, IBM, HP......Oct 24 09:49
schestowitzANd it's NOT for absolutely freeOct 24 09:50
schestowitzIt's free as in FREEDOMOct 24 09:50
_goblinI don't think they can grasp that concept.Oct 24 09:50
schestowitzPeople can rightly charge a fee for their distro. Some do.Oct 24 09:50
schestowitzMEPIS..Oct 24 09:50
_goblinI heard a nasty rumour that MS try charging for their OS.....what a cheek.Oct 24 09:50
_goblin;)Oct 24 09:50
schestowitzThey try to put ads in itOct 24 09:51
schestowitzApple tooOct 24 09:51
schestowitzCause pay-as-you-go (PAYG) won't workOct 24 09:51
schestowitzApple is now patenting itOct 24 09:51
schestowitzUnder Steve Jobs' nameOct 24 09:51
schestowitzMS patented OS subscriptionOct 24 09:51
schestowitzRed hat was not happyOct 24 09:51
_goblinRoy, I never did manage to get up to Manchester this visiting London anytime soon?Oct 24 09:51
schestowitzI haven't in a whileOct 24 09:54
schestowitzAs in yearsOct 24 09:54
schestowitzI gave some talks there back thenOct 24 09:54
schestowitzBTW, Vista 7 launch bombedOct 24 09:55
schestowitzThey messed it all up. Hype got botchedOct 24 09:55
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[_goblin] Voldemort sells more copies of Windows 7 than deathly hallows (allegedly) how many horcrux's does Ballmer have?Oct 24 09:56
schestowitzAnd their party is now over for good. Very little press coverage now, which is good.Oct 24 09:56
schestowitzHaOct 24 09:56
schestowitzYou beat me to it in TwitterOct 24 09:56
_goblin;)Oct 24 09:56
schestowitzWait..Oct 24 09:56
schestowitzWindows 7 Launch Parties Fizzle 24 09:56
_goblincheck out my comparison pictures...Since MS want to mention Harry Potter, I found a Ballmer/Voldemort similarity.Oct 24 09:57
schestowitz  From:   George Orwell <>Oct 24 09:57
schestowitzDespite positive spinning by Microsoft the Vista 7 launch turned into Oct 24 09:57
schestowitzone utter failure. The 'Windows 7 Launch Parties' were almost Oct 24 09:57
schestowitzuniversally mocked and ridiculed by the press and the general public. Oct 24 09:57
schestowitzThe so-called 'Windows 7 Is The Best Sold Windows Ever' campaign turned Oct 24 09:57
schestowitzout to be nothing more than channel-pushing, worse even than when Vista Oct 24 09:57
schestowitzwas launched, with retailers being prodded by huge discounts, which Oct 24 09:57
schestowitzwill disappear after launch. NO ONE is actually buying Vista 7. Sure, Oct 24 09:57
schestowitzsome clueless sod may buy some computer where the shit is pre-installed Oct 24 09:57
schestowitzbut that's about it. PC sales are NOT going to take off because Oct 24 09:57
schestowitzMicrosoft updates a few icons in Vista, smacked a new label on it and Oct 24 09:57
schestowitzbribed a few journalist to write about it being a ' huge improvement' Oct 24 09:57
schestowitzcompared to its predecessor. Businesses aren't even contemplating Oct 24 09:57
schestowitzupgrading their PC hardware and consumers are more concerned with Oct 24 09:57
schestowitzkeeping their jobs and being able to pay their mortgages.Oct 24 09:57
schestowitzThe only real growth, especially in this recession, lies in dirt-cheap Oct 24 09:57
schestowitznetbooks and Smartbooks, which is where M$ will meet its Nemesis: Oct 24 09:57
schestowitzChrome OS (Linux) on ARM.Oct 24 09:57
schestowitz====Oct 24 09:57
schestowitzend quoteOct 24 09:57
schestowitz_goblin: I see a FesterOct 24 09:58
schestowitzSUSE people speak Mono: 24 10:00
schestowitzNot so separateOct 24 10:01
-BNi/#boycottnovell-[sagarun/@sagarun] RT: @SecurityTube: [Video] History of Linux Documentary 24 10:04
schestowitzoh, it's a very good filmOct 24 10:05
schestowitzRevolution OS alsoOct 24 10:05
*zer0c00l (n=user@ has joined #boycottnovellOct 24 10:05
schestowitzHehe.Oct 24 10:06
schestowitz 24 10:06
schestowitzNow he's promoting the anti-BN site in TwitterOct 24 10:06
schestowitzJeff StedfastOct 24 10:06
schestowitzand putting my name ( @schestowitz ) in thereOct 24 10:07
schestowitzI'm starting to think that Novell employees who work on Mono don't love me. Same with the Banshee guy/s...Oct 24 10:07
schestowitz:-)Oct 24 10:07
zer0c00lschestowitz: Seems like you earned most of those mono guys hatred =POct 24 10:08
schestowitzOpenSUSE guy on twitter: 24 10:10
schestowitzzer0c00l: I wasn't tryingOct 24 10:10
schestowitzI write about MonoOct 24 10:10
schestowitzBut there happen to be people behind the programsOct 24 10:10
schestowitzAnd Mono is the issue, not the peopleOct 24 10:11
schestowitzIt's easier to criticise proprietary s/wOct 24 10:11
schestowitzCause people who write it have no real name (embedded in the program along with company logo)Oct 24 10:11
zer0c00lyeahOct 24 10:11
schestowitzThey are just paid to work as code monkeys in companies like MSFT. Novell is different, so people are attacked to their code.Oct 24 10:11
schestowitz*attachedOct 24 10:11
schestowitzI can either ignore the problem (Mono)(Oct 24 10:12
schestowitzOr write about it, in which case people are unfortunately hurt ("you say my baby ain't pretty!")Oct 24 10:12
zer0c00l;)Oct 24 10:13
mutxxyou also write about the people behind mono Roy.Oct 24 10:20
*oiaohm has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out))Oct 24 10:23
schestowitzMostly managers who drive the strategyOct 24 10:28
schestowitzThey have the power to change course and react to criticism (e.g. FSF)Oct 24 10:29
mutxxso atleast you admit to personal attacks.  okOct 24 10:29
mutxxso if you do attack people personally as you do, are you in the least bit surprised when people attack you back in return ?Oct 24 10:32
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[popey] #lrl2009 Apparently <- is a small screen.Oct 24 10:33
_goblinhi mutxx, the best of British to you...Oct 24 10:36
mutxxim not britishOct 24 10:36
_goblinno, its a saying.Oct 24 10:36
mutxxI knowOct 24 10:37
_goblinthen why say that.Oct 24 10:37
_goblinare you on a mission to question what you already know?Oct 24 10:37
mutxxI could say the same thing :)Oct 24 10:37
_goblinso you don't understand the term...Oct 24 10:37
_goblin?Oct 24 10:37
mutxxNo, Oct 24 10:37
_goblinahOct 24 10:37
_goblinyou dont.Oct 24 10:37
_goblinI'll explain.Oct 24 10:37
_goblinif you wantOct 24 10:37
mutxxdont botherOct 24 10:38
_goblinlolOct 24 10:38
_goblinso how are you this morning Mutxx?Oct 24 10:38
mutxxgood thankyou , and you ?Oct 24 10:38
_goblinfeeling well?  Enjoying life?Oct 24 10:38
_goblinspiffing.Oct 24 10:38
mutxxpip pipOct 24 10:39
_goblin"let those who have Windows 7 receive thy pity for they know not what they do..” – Goblin 3:16Oct 24 10:41
_goblinyawn.Oct 24 10:44
_goblingot anymore gems for today Mutxx?  Could you get them out now, Im going to work shortly and don't want to miss anything.Oct 24 10:45
mutxxno my interest is why some people would saste most of their best years, fighting against some company that is not even in the same country as them, not get a job, and spend ALL day every day trolling the web quote mining in an attempt to put people out of work, and damage people, instead of getting a job, using your mind for good and not evil, and do it for 3 or 4 years, and still have no idea if what you are spending MOST of your life (and best yearsOct 24 10:45
_goblinas if by magic...just let me digest this.Oct 24 10:45
_goblin"no my interest is why some people would saste most of their best years, fighting against some company" , mmm I take it then you also troll NHS protest sites then?  Whats it to you?  Do you also do this with bloggers who believe theirs aliens in Area51?  You too must spend much time on the net.Oct 24 10:47
mutxxim not talking about anyone else here, im interesting in why Roy does it, Oct 24 10:48
_goblin"using your mind for good and not evil" what on earth is this...we are talking about software.  and they say Linux users are religious in their promotion of their OS of choice.Oct 24 10:48
mutxxno im talking about a PhD student spending his best academic years (20 to 25) running a hate site, instead of using his brain for something actually constructive.Oct 24 10:49
_goblinGood and evil....oh no!....its Roy!!!!!!!!!!!!!! 24 10:49
mutxxor get a job and contribute to societyOct 24 10:49
fewamutxx, go suck your own dickOct 24 10:50
_goblin"or get a job and contribute to society" - Coming from Mutxx thats the funniest thing Ive read today.Oct 24 10:50
mutxxthere you go,, well done.. Oct 24 10:50
_goblinMutxx you are a hoot.  You claim Roy spends so much time on the net yet you do exactly the same thing....good effort.Oct 24 10:52
mutxxby the time I was Roy's age, I was in the military, got a degree in engineering, traveled the world, bought a house, learnt to fly, done 450 skydives, got 4 trades certificates, got married, and had worked full time for 7 years. so what's Roy doing with his life?Oct 24 10:53
mutxxIm retired, ive done it all, im not in my prime years, Oct 24 10:53
mutxxIm retired, RICH, im not a rich kid mooching on parents and spreading hate 24/7, if I was Roy's father he would be a swift kick in the pants and told to go get a job.Oct 24 10:54
_goblinReally?  By the time I was Roys age, I had developed a faster than light drive, spent 2 years in an alternate universe cured world poverty and still got home in time for tea.  Absolute can't and won't prove any of that.   Even if it was true whats that got to do with Roy posting about Novell/MS?Oct 24 10:55
mutxxso what's Roy done?Oct 24 10:55
mutxxcreated 7000 posts hardly no one reads.Oct 24 10:55
_goblinwhy are you even bothered?Oct 24 10:55
_goblinare you a long lost auntie?Oct 24 10:55
mutxxI could ask you guys the same thing.Oct 24 10:55
_goblinand I could you.Oct 24 10:55
_goblinso there you go.Oct 24 10:56
mutxxIm here because I dont like schadenfreude, i actually think it sickening, resorting to personal attack, trying to put people (real people who needs jobs) out of work.Oct 24 10:56
_goblinright, so why are you not doing this around the area51 conspiracy sites or the sites that claim 911 was staged by the US government....theres alot of "work" for you out there.Oct 24 10:57
mutxxIt's nice to be supported by rich parents and be given all the time in the world to do what you like, it's just sad that a bright person would spend 3 or 4 years of his life on such a pointless and trivial matter.Oct 24 10:57
_goblinIm sure Roy appreciates your concern.Oct 24 10:58
mutxxBecause I like and Support FOSS, and I dont think sites like this one is helping anyone. doing far more damage than good.  and Im interested in extremeists groups.Oct 24 10:58
_goblinI was waiting for that.  And don't tell me youre a linux user too?Oct 24 10:59
_goblinand you consider this an extremist group?Oct 24 10:59
mutxxyes i do.Oct 24 10:59
_goblinjust what have I done that is extremist?Oct 24 10:59
_goblinor fewaOct 24 10:59
_goblinor homerOct 24 10:59
_goblinor anyone else here.Oct 24 11:00
_goblinI would say your lurking in BN is far more extremist than anything Ive witnessed here.Oct 24 11:00
mutxxyes, i know its very hard for you to see what you do, as you surround yourself with like minded people, so it ends up being one big "everyone agreeing, love fest". Oct 24 11:01
_goblingive me one example.Oct 24 11:01
_goblinany one.Oct 24 11:01
_goblinI don't agree with everything Roy says.Oct 24 11:01
_goblinI don't agree with a 100% FOSS modelOct 24 11:02
_goblinand I certainly don't agree with alot RMS says.Oct 24 11:02
_goblinIve said this repeatedly on my blog.Oct 24 11:02
mutxxbut  you dont take him to task on it, and I get you agree with the vast majority of his bile.Oct 24 11:02
_goblinexample...just one.Oct 24 11:02
_goblinany one.Oct 24 11:02
mutxxexample of what ?Oct 24 11:03
_goblinof what you just claimed....(memory poor)Oct 24 11:03
_goblintell me what I agree with Roy on.Oct 24 11:03
_goblin...I going to love this.Oct 24 11:03
mutxxgoblin, do you ever actually read Roy's posts and comments ?Oct 24 11:03
_goblinyou don't know my exact views Mutxx because you have never asked.Oct 24 11:04
_goblineven on my blog I use the words "I'll let readers decide"Oct 24 11:04
mutxxI dont know your exact views, thats right, But I know from Roy's comments his exact views.Oct 24 11:04
_goblinso why did you just seek to make implication of my view?Oct 24 11:04
_goblintelling lies?Oct 24 11:04
_goblinagain?Oct 24 11:04
mutxxum, because you are the one questioning me about my motives. Oct 24 11:05
_goblinso you make statements without having the facts at your disposal do you?  and you do alot of this do you?  -- You say Roy has a problem?Oct 24 11:05
mutxxas you seem to be jumping in as one of Roy guard dogs, shielding him from controversy.Oct 24 11:06
mutxxas has become common practive on this site recentlyOct 24 11:06
_goblinIm not shielding roy from anything....I was asking you for your opinions on me.Oct 24 11:06
_goblingood try..Oct 24 11:06
mutxxRoy trying to distance himself, from these issues, and using attack dogs to fight his wars.Oct 24 11:06
_goblinlets talk about me....not Roy.Oct 24 11:06
_goblincan I have example of my extremist behaviour please?Oct 24 11:07
mutxxSorry, but who are you ?? it's Roy's site, but it very nice you defend him so much, try to take the heat of so to speak.Oct 24 11:08
_goblineh?  I thought we were talking about me (you made the claims) Im not bringing roy into this.Oct 24 11:08
_goblinand it doesn't look like Roy is interested in what you have to say...Oct 24 11:08
_goblinand Mutxx you know exactly who I am, we've talked before.Oct 24 11:09
_goblinunder your other nymOct 24 11:09
mutxxI was not talking about you, I was talking about Roy , that was obvious, you steped in to deflect and guard dog royOct 24 11:09
_goblinnot talking about me eh?  Let me quote you from a few minutes ago:Oct 24 11:09
_goblin"i know its very hard for you to see what you do, as you surround yourself with like minded people, so it ends up being one big "everyone agreeing, love fest". Oct 24 11:10
mutxxRoy wants to try to distance himself, which is impossible as it's HIS site, but employes guard dogs to take the heat. Oct 24 11:10
_goblincheck the IRC logs liar, I very rarely have conversations here....on average about 6 a week.Oct 24 11:10
_goblinand most of them I don't even speak with Roy.Oct 24 11:10
_goblinand hardly every respond to Roy's COLA posts and when I do speak with Roy not for more than a few minutes.Oct 24 11:11
mutxxI do not know ifyou are a rich kid in the UK with a unfinished PhD who has spent the past 3 years constantly trolling the web for snippets of information to fight a company in another country, and not bother to get a life, job, career, or future.Oct 24 11:11
_goblindoes it matter?Oct 24 11:12
_goblinand why does Roy's future matter to you?Oct 24 11:12
mutxxgoblin, ive read your "defence" of roy disarsterious interview, and you say your not a Roy attack dogOct 24 11:12
_goblinliar.Oct 24 11:12
_goblinI balanced it with a defence of JonoOct 24 11:12
_goblinlet me quote myself:Oct 24 11:12
_goblin"I think Jono handled the interview well.  Its would be hard for all the issues which Boycott Novell covers to be catered for in the hour or so slot that was dedicated to it."Oct 24 11:13
mutxxIve read your defense of Roy, how is that a LIE.Oct 24 11:13
_goblinthats a defence of Roy is it?Oct 24 11:13
mutxxwhat else did you say ? im sure it was not just one sentense.Oct 24 11:14
mutxxok,, ill go look see.Oct 24 11:14
_goblinMutxx you really need to get your defence sorted out (you would be easy pickings in a court of law) You said originally "Sorry, but who are you ??" and now you admit to reading my article.  You know exactly who I am and I put it to you that you are a liar.Oct 24 11:14
_goblin"Mutxx you are guilty only of being "Mutxx" that is your crime, its also your punishment."Oct 24 11:15
_goblinbrb smoke break.Oct 24 11:16
*mutxx has quit (Read error: 60 (Operation timed out))Oct 24 11:21
_goblinlolOct 24 11:21
_goblinThere are time like these when I celebrate the public logging of the IRC chat logs.Oct 24 11:22
*Mutx (n=cheese@ has joined #boycottnovellOct 24 11:24
_goblinwbOct 24 11:24
*zer0c00l` (n=user@ has joined #boycottnovellOct 24 11:24
Mutxyea, silly DSL modem :)Oct 24 11:25
_goblinits also dropped one of the "x"'s from your handle.Oct 24 11:25
_goblinfor future visits maybe you should use this: 24 11:25
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Mutxso you say  you dont allways agree with Roy, so what things dont you agree with him on ?Oct 24 11:27
_goblinas I said before (you must have missed it with your "silly DSL modem") I don't agree in a 100% foss model for starters.Oct 24 11:27
_goblinI agree with the need of DRM as a "necessary evil"Oct 24 11:28
Mutxgeez thats fairly mild, what else?Oct 24 11:28
_goblinoh sorry for having views.Oct 24 11:28
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Mutxso you dont disagree with him on the "big" issues.Oct 24 11:29
_goblinwhy not (since you've asked me a massive question) you put opinions to me and I'll let you know if I agree or not.Oct 24 11:29
Mutxso you only disagree with Roy about 100% FOSS and DRM. ok, mildOct 24 11:29
_goblinhang on...I asked you to put to me some of Roys views and I'll agree or disagree.Oct 24 11:30
_goblinI have not the time to list everything.Oct 24 11:30
_goblinI am giving you the opportunity of finding out about my views (the ones youre interested in)Oct 24 11:30
_goblinso it works like ask me and I'll let you know.Oct 24 11:31
MutxSorry, you may have noticed im not Roy, I find roys issues mixed and ill thought out, im not going to try to translate Roy's idea's for you.. im sure you have some idea what Roy is for and against right ??Oct 24 11:31
_goblincop out...Oct 24 11:32
Mutxand your's was not a cop out too, "tell me what Roy things and ill anser you HA"./Oct 24 11:32
_goblinYou asked me the question "geez thats fairly mild, what else?" and I am giving you the opportunity...I said I don't have the time to go through everything Roy believes so I offer you the chance to get me to state my views on whatever topics you wish to bring up...just be specific and I'll answer.Oct 24 11:33
MutxC'mon you've steped in as Roy guard dog, show us your "stuff" defend his honorOct 24 11:33
_goblineh?Oct 24 11:33
_goblinah I see the new implication here....Oct 24 11:34
_goblinafter you lied about not knowing me, lied about knowing my views you now seek to back out.Oct 24 11:34
_goblinoh and imply I am Roy's guard dog despite the fact that if you check the logs you will see how rarely I post here.Oct 24 11:34
MutxOfcouse I know you, I was saying I KNOW YOU ARE NOT ROY, it's Roys site, and Roy's issues, you're just the hired attack dogOct 24 11:35
_goblinlolOct 24 11:35
_goblincheck the IRC logs liar.Oct 24 11:35
_goblinI asked you not to talk about roy...I asked you to talk about the implication you made about "extremist group"Oct 24 11:35
Mutxrarly is roy threatened by others, so you're duties are not needed that often, thats what happens when you surround yourself with YES men.Oct 24 11:35
_goblinbut Ive established Im not a yes man since I don't hold with everything Roy says.Oct 24 11:36
MutxOfcourse you want me not to talk about Roy, thats your job, but this site IS ROY, everyone knows that.Oct 24 11:36
_goblinand Ive also established that I presented a balanced opinion of the FLOSS interview.Oct 24 11:36
_goblinand Ive also stated how little I actually chat here....Oct 24 11:37
_goblinbut yet you still seek to claim Im a guard dog?Oct 24 11:37
_goblinor have I got that wrong?Oct 24 11:37
_goblinplease give me evidence of me acting as a guard dog.  An IRC log, an article, a comment....anything....please, lets have a look.Oct 24 11:38
_goblinanother quote from my article on Roy's interview: Oct 24 11:39
_goblin"Did Roy look bad? Definately not. Did Jono “pull a fast one”? I’d say no. I just have the opinion that whilst it was an interesting interview, it was a wasted opportunity for Jono to produce a compelling piece which would have had the forums talking for months."Oct 24 11:39
*zer0c00l has quit (Read error: 113 (No route to host))Oct 24 11:40
_goblinor how about this: Oct 24 11:40
_goblin"Roy seems to be of the opinion that the interview was a flawed, I would disagree..."Oct 24 11:40
_goblinyep.  I'm a great guard dog.....if I am doing what you suggest then I'm not very good at it.Oct 24 11:40
*zer0c00l` is now known as zer0c00lOct 24 11:41
_goblinho hum...Oct 24 11:42
_goblinI think this is the longest conversation Ive had on the BN channel for months...Oct 24 11:43
_goblinmutx, if you want to put any of Roy's stances to me to either agree or disagree with you had better hurry up....Im off to work shortly....Oct 24 11:44
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_goblinyawn...Oct 24 11:45
*Mutex_ ( has joined #boycottnovellOct 24 11:47
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[popey] Great talk from Gerv about his first BBC BASIC program.Fun. #lrl2009Oct 24 11:53
_goblinright, Im off to work....Mutex_ good try. Maybe next time we chat you can try not to fixate on Roy and his opinions?  If you want to talk "Roy" do it with him.  I'm happy to speak about my views (which if you had taken my opportunity up you would have seen are vastly different to his)  I really hope you get to speak to Roy, maybe then you can get your fix and get it out of your system.  Your behaviour cannot be healthy for you.Oct 24 11:53
*_goblin has quit ("Ex-Chat")Oct 24 11:54
Mutex_lolOct 24 11:54
fewaI cant figure out what slashdot is trying to do with this: 24 11:55
*Mutx has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out))Oct 24 11:55
fewawhy not invalid slashdot has turned into such a chimeraOct 24 11:56
fewa*whileOct 24 11:58
schestowitz 24 12:02
fewayeah i saw thatOct 24 12:02
schestowitzTim Lee is pro-FSOct 24 12:05
schestowitzIt's funny how "business" schools attack peer productionOct 24 12:05
schestowitzBut winner of economic Nobel Prize is Elinor, who promotes itOct 24 12:06
schestowitzSame with Stiglitz and MaskinOct 24 12:06
fewa"peer-prodution"?Oct 24 12:12
fewa"business" schools are factories for a special class of peopleOct 24 12:13
fewathose peoples with superior power for greed, incompetence, etc...Oct 24 12:13
zer0c00lschestowitz: when did they start it 24 12:15
fewabout a year ago zer0c00l Oct 24 12:16
zer0c00lfewa: okOct 24 12:16
fewaits just a standard thing for any non-profitOct 24 12:16
fewathe bank still gets a mega-cutOct 24 12:16
fewaand gets to rip of merchantOct 24 12:16
zer0c00lohOct 24 12:16
fewathats just a feature of credit cardsOct 24 12:18
fewa3% on the merchant sideOct 24 12:18
fewainstead of being itemized on recietOct 24 12:18
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[popey] 10 PRINT '#lrl2009'; 20 GOTO 10Oct 24 12:25
Mutex_ahh yes, good old, "Beginners All Purpose Symbolic Instruction Code"Oct 24 12:27
Mutex_BAPSICOct 24 12:32
schestowitz[12:13] <fewa> "business" schools are factories for a special class of peopleOct 24 12:40
schestowitzYes, those whose families they come fromOct 24 12:40
schestowitzzer0c00l: I don't know when they started this card thing. I've only just found out in identi.caOct 24 12:41
zer0c00lschestowitz: okOct 24 12:43
fewaIts realOct 24 12:45
fewabut its not like its free money to themOct 24 12:45
trmancoI had a bios crach todayOct 24 12:58
trmancocrash*Oct 24 12:58
fewaBIOS?Oct 24 12:59
fewawtfOct 24 12:59
trmancoI think the config got corruptedOct 24 12:59
fewatime for i guessOct 24 12:59
trmancoI did a CMOS reset and everything is fine for nowOct 24 12:59
schestowitztrmanco: where's the bot?Oct 24 12:59
schestowitzMaybe you can cron it :-)Oct 24 13:00
*magentar has quit (Remote closed the connection)Oct 24 13:00
*phIRCe ( has joined #boycottnovellOct 24 13:00
phIRCeHello World!Oct 24 13:00
trmancothen my filesystem could mountOct 24 13:02
trmanco...Oct 24 13:02
trmancogeezeOct 24 13:02
trmanco...Oct 24 13:02
trmancobecause the BIOS date wasn't set properlyOct 24 13:02
fewayeah i hate thatOct 24 13:03
fewa"mount time in the past...forcing fsck"Oct 24 13:03
fewaif its more than a month it should just ignore it and print a WTFOct 24 13:04
trmancoit was actually years past :-POct 24 13:04
fewaok, more than a yearOct 24 13:04
fewaif (time_t_now - time_t_mount) < 0 { if (time_t_now - time_t_mount) > -(60*60*24*365)}Oct 24 13:07
fewaor whateverOct 24 13:07
schestowitzfsck is badOct 24 13:12
schestowitzIt kicks in just when you need to boot fastOct 24 13:12
schestowitzAlways at the worst timesOct 24 13:12
schestowitzLike when I'm at work trying to get things doneOct 24 13:13
fewaubuntu 9.10 lets you cancel itOct 24 13:13
schestowitzAnd don't have anything to occupy myself with while it's fscking the diskOct 24 13:13
fewabut when i tried it my computer rebooted, so it must still be a little buggyOct 24 13:13
schestowitzSo I go get tea or somethingOct 24 13:13
fewaschestowitz, brtfs has online fsckOct 24 13:13
schestowitzfewa: not ub Kubuntu 9.10Oct 24 13:13
fewamine didOct 24 13:13
fewax86_64Oct 24 13:13
schestowitz /ub./in/ (fingers misplaced)Oct 24 13:13
fewait says, press ESC to cancellOct 24 13:14
schestowitzAlso, on this machine it has NO PROGRESS BAROct 24 13:14
fewaand has a differnt graphicOct 24 13:14
schestowitzatrocious!!Oct 24 13:14
fewawith progress barOct 24 13:14
fewax86_64?Oct 24 13:14
schestowitzNopeeOct 24 13:14
*ThistleWeb (n=gordon@unaffiliated/thistleweb) has joined #boycottnovellOct 24 13:14
schestowitzI told jonoOct 24 13:14
fewaim running Oct 24 13:14
fewa<schestowitz> fsck is badOct 24 13:14
fewa<schestowitz> It kicks in just when you need to boot fastOct 24 13:14
fewa<schestowitz> Always at the worst timesOct 24 13:14
fewa<schestowitz> Like when I'm at work trying to get things doneOct 24 13:14
fewawhoopsOct 24 13:14
schestowitzHe just suggested that I file a bugOct 24 13:14
fewarunning 2.6.31-13-generic x86_64Oct 24 13:14
fewaand i got progress barOct 24 13:14
fewawith press ESC dialogueOct 24 13:15
schestowitzroy@roy:~$ uname -aOct 24 13:15
schestowitzLinux roy 2.6.31-11-generic #38-Ubuntu SMP Fri Oct 2 11:55:55 UTC 2009 i686 GNU/LinuxOct 24 13:15
fewai686 and x86_64 should be the sameOct 24 13:15
*ThistleWeb has quit (Client Quit)Oct 24 13:15
fewathis was cool from earlier 24 13:15
phIRCeTitle: YouTube - Air Car (2 of 2) from Australia .::. Size~: 133.22 KBOct 24 13:15
trmancomine has a progress counterOct 24 13:15
trmancoin%Oct 24 13:15
fewamaybe you were still on jauty kernel?Oct 24 13:16
fewaI have ext3Oct 24 13:16
fewanot ext4Oct 24 13:16
trmancoI also have ext3Oct 24 13:18
trmancokarmicOct 24 13:18
*Mutx (n=cheese@ has joined #boycottnovellOct 24 13:18
schestowitzMonster Energy Drink got itself a lot of publicity because of DMCA abuse. 24 13:20
phIRCeTitle: Monster Energy Drink Backs Down Due To Public Pressure; Vermonster Beer Lives On | Techdirt .::. Size~: 29.43 KBOct 24 13:20
schestowitzfewa: ext4 hereOct 24 13:20
schestowitzMaybe that's whyOct 24 13:20
fewadiffernt utilitiesOct 24 13:20
fewafile bugOct 24 13:21
fewabet they will port acrossOct 24 13:21
*Mutex_ has quit (Read error: 60 (Operation timed out))Oct 24 13:21
schestowitz 24 13:24
phIRCeTitle: CL&P Blog: New Jersey School Board Subpoenas Citizens Who Criticize Its Staff to Sue Them for Defamation .::. Size~: 57.76 KBOct 24 13:24
willimmhey schestowizOct 24 13:28
*Mutex_ (n=cheese@ has joined #boycottnovellOct 24 13:30
schestowitzHeyOct 24 13:31
*Mutx has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out))Oct 24 13:40
fewaniceOct 24 13:41
*Mutx (n=cheese@ has joined #boycottnovellOct 24 13:43
*satipera (i=59f0a1c0@gateway/web/freenode/x-bzbamafljakrzxer) has joined #boycottnovellOct 24 13:43
schestowitznice -9Oct 24 13:44
schestowitz??Oct 24 13:44
fewaon school boardOct 24 13:46
schestowitz 24 13:46
phIRCeTitle: Mozilla confirms Firefox updates and beta delayed - The H Open Source: News and Features .::. Size~: 27.4 KBOct 24 13:46
schestowitzfewa: not so niceOct 24 13:46
schestowitzMaybe nice for those who cannot tolerate criticismOct 24 13:46
fewayes, you had it rightOct 24 13:47
fewanice -9Oct 24 13:47
fewa:POct 24 13:47
satiperaI wondered if there was a table of national slavery to M$ how would it look? For myself South Korea has to be near the top.Oct 24 13:48
fewafunny is that South Korea use to have strong rules on capital flightOct 24 13:48
fewaand preventing money from leaving the countryOct 24 13:48
fewaChomsky remarked that at one point the penalty was deathOct 24 13:48
fewabut I guess they have no problem shipping lots of money to MSFTOct 24 13:49
-BNi/#boycottnovell-[sagarun/@sagarun] is there any way i could apply, debian's "dpatches" in !fedora? dpatch-run is not available; !debian !patchOct 24 13:49
*zer0c00l is now known as zer0c00l|afkOct 24 13:49
satiperacapital flight is another matterOct 24 13:51
fewathis is capital drainOct 24 13:51
fewayes differn'tOct 24 13:51
*Mutex_ has quit (Read error: 113 (No route to host))Oct 24 13:56
satiperaAnd there no diamonds in the mine :)Oct 24 13:58
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schestowitz 24 14:06
phIRCeTitle: OpenDNS .::. Size~: 1.97 KBOct 24 14:06
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[thistleweb] New Blog Post - No Alignment Left Behind 24 14:09
phIRCeTitle: No Alignment Left Behind .::. Size~: 21.53 KBOct 24 14:09
cubezzzwell, been using ext4 for a day nowOct 24 14:09
cubezzzno data loss yet :)Oct 24 14:09
trmancololOct 24 14:09
trmancowere you counting on getting a data loss?Oct 24 14:10
cubezzzno :)Oct 24 14:10
trmanco:-POct 24 14:10
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-BNc/#boycottnovell-[trmanco] Bem, hoje a minha BIOS decidiu dar o berro... mas nada que um reset a CMOS nao resolva :-POct 24 14:14
schestowitz 24 14:16
schestowitzBoic.Oct 24 14:16
schestowitzApple does some OK work attacking its binary ally: 24 14:18
phIRCeTitle: Apple spits at Windows 7: You can't trust Microsoft | Technically Incorrect - CNET News .::. Size~: 358.25 KBOct 24 14:18
schestowitz 24 14:20
phIRCeTitle: Nokia Delays Flagship N900 Linux Phone - News - .::. Size~: 21.21 KBOct 24 14:20
schestowitzMaybe they want to sue some more first :-)Oct 24 14:20
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[scientes] Why disproportional corporate votes? Lets replace with plurality votes. #s1074 24 14:24
phIRCeTitle: Improving Corporate Governance - C-SPAN Video Library .::. Size~: 82.34 KBOct 24 14:24
phIRCeTitle: Senator Charles E. Schumer .::. Size~: 39.84 KBOct 24 14:24
fewaschestowitz, their criticism reads like a blank slateOct 24 14:26
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schestowitzI see that mutex is trolling BN in blog comments nowOct 24 14:52
schestowitz*sigh*Oct 24 14:52
schestowitzWhat a leechOct 24 14:52
schestowitzHe came here from proxies IIRC with so many nymsOct 24 14:53
zer0c00l|afkwho is mutexx;Oct 24 14:53
*zer0c00l|afk is now known as zer0c00lOct 24 14:53
schestowitzGoes by the name "TheTruth"Oct 24 14:53
Mutex_at least im just a leech royOct 24 14:53
schestowitzYou're obsessed, Sir.Oct 24 14:54
zer0c00llolOct 24 14:54
schestowitzYou're working like mad getting into this channel just to resist the messageOct 24 14:54
Mutex_oh yea, and we are sure you know all about obsession too.Oct 24 14:54
schestowitzThat's like me breaking down the door of Britney SPread forums to heckle the regularsOct 24 14:54
schestowitzDon't agree? Then go to another forumOct 24 14:54
schestowitzStop trying to upset othersOct 24 14:54
schestowitzAnd you also resort to personal attacksOct 24 14:55
schestowitzYou werre not banned for opposing viewsOct 24 14:55
schestowitzBut for abusing othersOct 24 14:55
Mutex_so I suppose I should just go away and let you say whatever you think is right then, so you can surround yourself with Yes men, Oct 24 14:55
Mutex_Ive never abused others.Oct 24 14:55
schestowitzMutex_: I'm not obsessed with peopleOct 24 14:55
schestowitzHere you are obsessing over peopleOct 24 14:55
schestowitzI look at issues in societyOct 24 14:55
Mutex_sorry, if you think i did show me where i did that, otherwise stop lieingOct 24 14:55
schestowitzAnd I address themOct 24 14:55
schestowitzAnd here you are trolling 1 personOct 24 14:55
schestowitzLike some imbecileOct 24 14:55
schestowitz[14:55] <Mutex_> Ive never abused others.Oct 24 14:56
schestowitzYou did.Oct 24 14:56
fewayarpOct 24 14:56
schestowitzThat's why you got kickbannedOct 24 14:56
Mutex_sure, and what do you do all day Roy, you do not spend your life trolling the web for your "cause".Oct 24 14:56
Mutex_show me where Roy, back up your comments with some facts please.Oct 24 14:56
fewaso vileOct 24 14:56
schestowitzMy cause is not to troll a channel/personOct 24 14:56
schestowitzMy cause has nothing to do with some small groupOct 24 14:56
fewayou have such staminaOct 24 14:56
schestowitzIt's to do with phenomenaOct 24 14:56
Mutex_no it's to troll the web for your cause. same difference.Oct 24 14:56
schestowitzOKOct 24 14:57
schestowitzI'm done wasting time w/ youOct 24 14:57
Mutex_yes, that's easier than confronting the issues I guess, but that's your call.Oct 24 14:57
Mutex_why when I ask you to provide proof that I personally attacked anyone, you seem to go all quite ?Oct 24 14:58
*trmanco gives channel operator status to fewaOct 24 14:59
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schestowitzYou were given a second chance after abuse Oct 24 15:01
Mutex_show me what abuse, just because you say it, clearly does not mean its true, if you have some proof of me abusing anyone, im sure you would be quick to show it, seems to me you think just saying something means it's true.Oct 24 15:02
schestowitz"Hewlett-Packard also did something yesterday, albeit very quietly. HP removed Linux entirely from the part of their website where they sell netbooks. The day Windows 7 became available the HP Mi interface appears to have died a quiet death." 24 15:03
phIRCeTitle: OpenDNS .::. Size~: 2.09 KBOct 24 15:03
schestowitzAdvertising contracts againOct 24 15:03
schestowitz"Make the rivals vanish" agreementOct 24 15:03
schestowitzAgreement$Oct 24 15:03
schestowitz 24 15:06
schestowitzFragmentation =negative spin on diversityOct 24 15:07
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schestowitzLada mentalityOct 24 15:07
schestowitzSymbian tries to hype up its "open source": 24 15:07
phIRCeTitle: EPL Release of microkernel demonstrates progress towards open source goal | Symbian .::. Size~: 15.11 KBOct 24 15:07
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-BNc/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] Is anyone other than Nokia/Symbian using Symbian code at all?Oct 24 15:10
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schestowitz 24 15:14
cubezzznegative spin on everything it seems Oct 24 15:14
phIRCeTitle: New early releases of Ubuntu, Fedora, and openSUSE Linux are available | Blog | Bob Sutor .::. Size~: 49.49 KBOct 24 15:14
cubezzznews guys need to be more positiveOct 24 15:14
cubezzzAiksaurusGTK looks pretty usefulOct 24 15:16
schestowitzOct 24 15:17
schestowitz[15:14] <cubezzz> negative spin on everything it seems Oct 24 15:17
schestowitzOne of my favs is "open is less secure"Oct 24 15:17
schestowitzLet's do that in elections, too :-)Oct 24 15:17
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cubezzzfedora 11 looks pretty niceOct 24 15:17
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schestowitzthere's plannign for 13Oct 24 15:20
schestowitzUgh..Oct 24 15:21
schestowitz 24 15:21
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phIRCeTitle:  Is Endless Forking and Fragmentation What Android Needs?  .::. Size~: 35.07 KBOct 24 15:21
schestowitzOnce again...Oct 24 15:21
schestowitzThey are being sillyOct 24 15:21
cubezzzdiversity bad? :)Oct 24 15:21
schestowitzThe WHOLE POINT of FS is that modifications are allowedOct 24 15:21
schestowitzAnd ENCOURAGEDOct 24 15:21
schestowitzSo now they say, "just let Google do its thing and never changed their code"Oct 24 15:21
schestowitzThat's NOT Free softwareOct 24 15:21
schestowitzThat's idiocyOct 24 15:21
schestowitzit's like that whole "united Linux" thingOct 24 15:22
schestowitzWhere deviation is frowned upon or not permittedOct 24 15:22
schestowitzI.e. it's Linux tyrannyOct 24 15:22
cubezzzthere's no Linux tyranny since everyone goes their own wayOct 24 15:25
cubezzzno central controlOct 24 15:25
schestowitzLinux doesn't have forks yetOct 24 15:26
schestowitzNot proper onesOct 24 15:26
schestowitzBut there are Linux alternativesOct 24 15:27
cubezzzweird how they put all this cross-compiling stuff under educationOct 24 15:27
trmancoI have to go nowOct 24 15:28
trmancocya guysOct 24 15:28
trmanco!quit  phIRCeOct 24 15:28
trmanco!quit phIRCeOct 24 15:28
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cubezzzmay as well try the new KDE while I'm at itOct 24 15:33
EruaranhelloOct 24 15:33
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-BNc/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] @popey: look what you did ... 24 15:36
schestowitzpopey: it's a lost cause with him. I flagged Rory as a MSFTer years ago when he was admitting having lunch with Microsoft execs. He has always been LInux hostileOct 24 15:38
schestowitzThis reminds me of jono trying to teach Ashley Highfield to use UbuntuOct 24 15:38
schestowitzAfter he attacked Linux repeatedlyOct 24 15:38
schestowitzAnd then Ashley joined Microsoft :-)Oct 24 15:38
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[davidgerard] bored and ill. please feed me link crack.Oct 24 15:40
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-BNc/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] @davidgerard come to irc :-)Oct 24 15:45
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EruaranHas Google given any indication when Wave might become widely available ?Oct 24 15:47
schestowitzThey seem to be release Chrome for Mac before GNU/LinuxOct 24 15:48
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schestowitz 24 15:50
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schestowitz 24 15:55
*Mutx has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out))Oct 24 15:55
schestowitzThere's lots of noise about them going non-gratis, which is not even trueOct 24 15:55
schestowitzPsystar releases Mac clone software 24 15:56
schestowitz 24 15:58
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[davidgerard] some archbishops are stranger than others 24 16:00
schestowitzUbuntu Christian Edition gets slapped. 24 16:00
schestowitzDaemonisation of Linux from the con press: 24 16:02
schestowitzLinux "planning a coup"Oct 24 16:02
schestowitzThen they cite Microsoft puppets like GartnerOct 24 16:02
popeyschestowitz: :)Oct 24 16:03
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[popey] #lrl2009 says "Don't put your postcode on your christmas cards, put FREE THE POSTCODE instead".Oct 24 16:04
schestowitz 24 16:05
*Sir_Konrad has quit (Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer))Oct 24 16:05
schestowitzpopey: glad you saw itOct 24 16:05
schestowitzI'm not exaggerating BTWOct 24 16:05
schestowitzI could produce for you evidenceOct 24 16:05
*Sir_Konrad ( has joined #boycottnovellOct 24 16:05
schestowitzI envision that Rory has some dinners at houses of Microsoft execs, tooOct 24 16:05
schestowitzThat's OK. But I'm just not expecting much good to come out of him trying Linux. It's like Peter Day with Red Hat's CEOOct 24 16:06
schestowitz /s/CEO/director/Oct 24 16:06
popeyschestowitz: I linked to it from my blog when he published itOct 24 16:07
popeyAIUI he's getting more exposure to Linux over the next week or soOct 24 16:07
schestowitz Stress Testing Linux SystemOct 24 16:10
schestowitzpopey: yes, I knowOct 24 16:10
schestowitzFrom a cursory look at the comments, it's polite feedbackOct 24 16:10
schestowitzHe tries to make it behave like WindowsOct 24 16:11
schestowitzWith Wine and allOct 24 16:11
schestowitzThe typical fallaciesOct 24 16:11
schestowitzAnd he can't even be arsed to install wineOct 24 16:11
*DavidGerard (n=fun@wikimedia/DavidGerard) has joined #boycottnovellOct 24 16:11
schestowitzSo why all the blame? 24 hours are barely enough for me to get used to a new /distro/, let alone OSOct 24 16:11
schestowitzHey, DavidGerardOct 24 16:11
DavidGerardgood afternoon allOct 24 16:11
schestowitzDavidGerard: flu?Oct 24 16:12
DavidGerardor something. sore throat, coughing. appears viral. Oct 24 16:12
DavidGerardthe toddler has it too now, so she's miserable cos she wants to play and play and play but hasn't the energyOct 24 16:12
DavidGerardalso, my brain is made of swiss cheeseOct 24 16:12
schestowitzYou need to sober up with jack Daniels thenOct 24 16:13
schestowitzTo fill the holesOct 24 16:13
DavidGerardtemptingOct 24 16:13
DavidGerardi did have a celebratory beer last night as I am almost employedOct 24 16:13
DavidGerard(won't say where on a publicly logged channel)Oct 24 16:13
schestowitzLinux takes the beating from RTOS people who hate that 'free thing'.... :Linux and Security: Mission Impossible? 24 16:14
DavidGerardjust waiting for paperwork to arriveOct 24 16:14
DavidGerardalready arranged my work laptop, a tiny 12" 1kg thingOct 24 16:14
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DavidGerardprobably running windows, but should ubuntu nicely ;-)Oct 24 16:14
schestowitzI guess then that it's a familiar large media companyOct 24 16:14
DavidGerardi couldn't possibly commentOct 24 16:14
DavidGerardoh good, "open in browser" is correctly configured in xchat out the boxOct 24 16:15
DavidGerard(i didn't have xchat on this laptop so installed it just now)Oct 24 16:15
schestowitzPR for Trafigura.... 24 16:15
DaemonFCDavidGerard, It should just use your default browserOct 24 16:15
schestowitzDaemonFC: which distro?Oct 24 16:16
DavidGerardthank you for reminding me of irc, it's an effortless way of soaking up braindead hoursOct 24 16:16
schestowitzxchat has this annoying behaviour (having to context-menu through to opening links)Oct 24 16:16
DavidGerardwhatever it thinks is freedesktop "default" in the present environment, I should thinkOct 24 16:16
DaemonFCschestowitz, On Windows, Mac, or in GNOME at leastOct 24 16:16
DavidGerardon kde it opens in konq unless you bludgeon it not toOct 24 16:16
DaemonFCGNOME has a place where you select your default browser and emailOct 24 16:16
DavidGerardthis laptop is on gnome, so it opened in firefoxOct 24 16:16
DaemonFCXchat just uses whatever you specifiedOct 24 16:16
DavidGerardgnome used to annoy the hell out of me, it doesn't any more. and nautilus is actually reasonably usable as a file browser.Oct 24 16:17
DavidGerardschestowitz: that link is a quite painstaking assemblage of FUDOct 24 16:18
DaemonFCI haven't used the Internet Explorer "uninstaller" yet on this install of 7Oct 24 16:18
schestowitzYegulalp neglcts to say he was a Windows journo before turning to FOSS:;jsessionid=GOBYKBHX1IWXVQE1GHPCKHWATMY32JVNOct 24 16:18
DavidGerardwhen even wind river gives up and starts selling linux ...Oct 24 16:18
DaemonFCI used it on the RC build, it removes the browser executable so IE can't openOct 24 16:18
DavidGerardDaemonFC: how's 7 running for you? how much memory/cpu?Oct 24 16:18
schestowitzDavidGerard: yes, it's done there in occasionallyOct 24 16:18
schestowitzThey mostly host columns from vendorsOct 24 16:18
DavidGerardsurely that's just a matter of removing iexplore.exe itselfOct 24 16:18
DavidGerardahOct 24 16:18
schestowitzSometimes linux boosting frokm montavistaOct 24 16:18
schestowitzAnd sometimes the proprietary folksOct 24 16:19
DaemonFCDavidGerard, You should count "cached" and "Free" together, soooo......Oct 24 16:19
*schestowitz sees kde 4.3 using 1gb with lots of apps open atmOct 24 16:19
DavidGerardyeahOct 24 16:19
DaemonFCDavidGerard, 6933 megs free of 8190 with Security Essentials, Xchat, and Utorrent running, and Winamp playing a FLAC fileOct 24 16:20
schestowitz12 windowsOct 24 16:20
DaemonFCit's doing a lot better than VistaOct 24 16:20
DavidGerardah, 8GB RAM? in that case even windows 7 would run quite happily ;-)Oct 24 16:20
schestowitz7 gb freeOct 24 16:20
DaemonFCDaemonFC, It's happy with 2, thats the least I've ran it onOct 24 16:20
popeyschestowitz: i agree 24 hours isnt enoughOct 24 16:20
DaemonFCmy older system had 4 though and that was fine tooOct 24 16:20
popeyschestowitz: also, why aren't you at lrl? :)Oct 24 16:20
DavidGerardin my experience of KDE and GNOME they don't need a lot of CPU but they're much happier with a lot of memory. KDE in under 384MB is pain. 512MB min, 1GB goodOct 24 16:20
DaemonFCerrrrOct 24 16:20
DaemonFCtab completion pwnageOct 24 16:21
DavidGerardthis laptop is a 1GHz P-III with 768MBOct 24 16:21
schestowitzpopey: I don't travel muchOct 24 16:21
schestowitzI don't know what LRL isOct 24 16:21
popeyLUGRadio LiveOct 24 16:21
schestowitzProbably "Linux <somthing>"Oct 24 16:21
popeyalso OggCamp tomorrowOct 24 16:21
popeyit's in wolverhamptonOct 24 16:21
schestowitzYes, I know from audiocastsOct 24 16:21
schestowitzLinux OutlawsOct 24 16:21
DaemonFCDavidGerard, According to the Task Manager, 15% of my RAM is in use, Vista was using 28%-30% by this pointOct 24 16:22
DavidGerardit's useful IMO for free software advocates to be familiar with windows and mac os. i wouldn't call it mandatory, it is in fact rather painfulOct 24 16:22
DaemonFCso that's the closest to a comparison I can giveOct 24 16:22
DavidGerardi'm hoping my werk laptop is xp and not vistaOct 24 16:22
schestowitzDaemonFC: what about xp and madriva?Oct 24 16:22
schestowitzVista is not a yardstickOct 24 16:22
schestowitzXP runs more apps and games than Vista7Oct 24 16:22
DaemonFCDavidGerard, 7 is using equal RAM to XP x64 edition Oct 24 16:22
DaemonFCthat's why I finally moved onOct 24 16:23
schestowitzAnd the free copyOct 24 16:23
schestowitzYou left out that partOct 24 16:23
DaemonFCmeh, I would have "happened upon" one anywayOct 24 16:23
DavidGerardwow(tm)Oct 24 16:23
DaemonFCschestowitz, Vista was just a place holder on this systemOct 24 16:23
schestowitzDaemonFC: sureOct 24 16:23
schestowitzThey fly out the windowOct 24 16:23
DaemonFCI only had to deal with it for a little more than a weekOct 24 16:23
DavidGerard7 is not in fact awful to use. it is however rather proprietary.Oct 24 16:24
*schestowitz tries to find the cartoonOct 24 16:24
DavidGerarddid it let you add ogg directshow filters?Oct 24 16:24
DaemonFCIt's quite easy to hex edit your BIOS and insert a SLIC 2.1 keyOct 24 16:24
DaemonFCDavidGerard, The final version of 7 lets you do that againOct 24 16:24
*DavidGerard adds those on windows boxes wherever feasible - WMP is not an awful media player reallyOct 24 16:24
DavidGerardoh good!Oct 24 16:24
DaemonFCMicrosoft reversed their position on that and opened it up againOct 24 16:24
schestowitzI can't find itOct 24 16:25
DavidGerardi'm a big believer in free apps leading people to free software, having seen it happen so muchOct 24 16:25
schestowitzIIRC I saw it via GroklawOct 24 16:25
schestowitzSomeone asks where to get VistaOct 24 16:25
DavidGerardSAVE VISTA!Oct 24 16:25
schestowitzAnd the peer says, "it's everywhere"Oct 24 16:25
DavidGerarda MANLY operating systemOct 24 16:25
DaemonFCI wouldn't have bought a new computer to get stuck with VistaOct 24 16:25
schestowitz[then you have boxes flying out the windows [in anger]]Oct 24 16:25
DavidGerardlike EDSEL! like HUMMER!Oct 24 16:25
DaemonFCthat's what I have to say about thatOct 24 16:25
DavidGerardan operating system for the days of 25c gasoline!Oct 24 16:25
DavidGerarda whole ton of shiny shiny chrome!Oct 24 16:26
DavidGerardand those TAILFINS!Oct 24 16:26
DaemonFCDavidGerard, Did you see that GM only got $150 million for HUMMEROct 24 16:26
DavidGerardi'm unsurprisedOct 24 16:26
DaemonFCthe brand has been destroyed by a bad economy and $3 a gallon gasOct 24 16:26
DavidGerardthere are people who have reasonable uses for a hummerOct 24 16:26
DaemonFCtotally destroyed :)Oct 24 16:26
*omar_ (n=omar@ has joined #boycottnovellOct 24 16:26
DavidGerardjust not most of the buyers over the last 10 yearsOct 24 16:26
DavidGerardlike SUVs in general.Oct 24 16:26
DavidGerardmy dad is one of the 7% of Australian 4x4 drivers whose 4x4 actually ever leaves the highway ;-)Oct 24 16:27
DaemonFCDavidGerard, I have *NO* use for something that gets 6 miles per gallonOct 24 16:27
DaemonFCthat's just unreasonableOct 24 16:27
DavidGerardthere are people who have reasonable use for tanks and trucks tooOct 24 16:27
DavidGerardthankfully i don't see a lot of 4x4s around e17Oct 24 16:27
DaemonFCmy 15 year old Ford Taurus still runs fine (laugh all you like) and it gets at least 20 mpgOct 24 16:28
DavidGerarda lot of the roads around here are basically paved goat tracksOct 24 16:28
DaemonFCwhy do I want to quadruple my gasoline expensesOct 24 16:28
DavidGerardand really, if you need a car in london you're doing it wrongOct 24 16:28
DaemonFCDavidGerard, When I go out looking for a newer car, it'll probably just be some 4 cylinder deal with no frillsOct 24 16:29
DavidGerardyeahOct 24 16:29
DavidGerardwe're idly thinking about getting a Skoda Octavia - a Volkswagen but built like a tank. Very popular *and* quite robust.Oct 24 16:30
DaemonFCDavidGerard, I had financed back in 2003 a new Pontiac Grand Prix GTP with the supercharged twin cam 3.8 liter V6Oct 24 16:30
DaemonFCI was literally heartbroken when it got repossessedOct 24 16:30
DavidGerardmost of the minicab drivers around here use octavias, you can get 'em fixed anywhereOct 24 16:30
DaemonFCbut it was a great rideOct 24 16:30
DaemonFCeven though it was a guzzlerOct 24 16:30
DavidGerardooh yes, that does sound like a nice rideOct 24 16:30
DaemonFCloaded, even had a holographic heads down displayOct 24 16:31
DaemonFClook up, the windshield is clear, look down a bit, and there's your gauges projected onto the windshieldOct 24 16:31
schestowitzpopey: "We recorded this episode in one room together and are releasing to as soon as possible with minimal editing for a change. Since both of us are away for LugRadio Live and OggCamp at the moment, this was the only way to get the content out there without having a massive delay. Therefore, show notes will be added later, basically as soon as we get to it (most likely after the LRL/OggCamp weekend has wrapped up)."Oct 24 16:31
schestowitz 24 16:31
DaemonFCthat was my favorite gimmick in a car, everOct 24 16:31
DaemonFCI'd still kill to have that car backOct 24 16:32
DaemonFCleather interior, power everything, satellite radio, butt warmers in the seats :)Oct 24 16:33
schestowitzWhy not put the engine there? :-)Oct 24 16:33
DaemonFClmaoOct 24 16:33
DaemonFCthat's a little too hot I'm sureOct 24 16:33
schestowitzSo you provuide isulationOct 24 16:33
DavidGerardwhere do you think car heat comes from? Oct 24 16:34
DavidGerard(usually from a heat exchanger on the exhaust)Oct 24 16:34
DaemonFCyepOct 24 16:34
DavidGerardan innovation from the 1960s I believeOct 24 16:35
DavidGerardi recall that arctic models of VW microbus would include electric or even petrol-fueled internal heatersOct 24 16:35
DavidGerard(from reading the manual with my distinctly non-arctic VW)Oct 24 16:36
popeyschestowitz: dan and fab are set right next to me :)Oct 24 16:37
schestowitzCool!Oct 24 16:37
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schestowitzbblOct 24 16:45
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[popey] #lrl2009 four large gents.. _ _ ¸Oct 24 16:47
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[popey] #lrl2009 Wonder how robust this twitterfall is'); DROP TABLE twitter;--Oct 24 16:50
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[popey] That's IT! I'm boycotting LRL 2010! #lrl2009Oct 24 16:55
*Diablo-D3 (n=diablo@ has joined #boycottnovellOct 24 16:56
DaemonFCMicrosoft has always done extensive usability studies with every software product. And it has always resulted in Microsoft products being confusing and condescending at the same time. (Are you sure you want to do that? Really? Are you really really sure? OK then, just reboot and click Yes five more times. Oops, sorry -- there was a fatal exception error. Here's some nonsense hexadecimal code to chew on.)Oct 24 17:06
DaemonFC 24 17:06
DaemonFClolOct 24 17:06
Diablo-D3windows 7 did change my mind about microsoftOct 24 17:06
Diablo-D3I believe they're actually trying to save the windows brandOct 24 17:07
Diablo-D37 really is an improvement over the horror that is vistaOct 24 17:07
Diablo-D3howeverOct 24 17:07
Diablo-D3I dont believe they can unless they work even harder than thisOct 24 17:07
Diablo-D3they're about 1/3rd the wayOct 24 17:07
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[davidgerard] Simple English Wikiquote: deliberately distorting what people have said in case it's too hard. Closure proposal: 24 17:08
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[popey] #lrl2009 Free pile of 'Art of Community' books for bonfire night!Oct 24 17:13
*wallc (i=62a521f3@gateway/web/freenode/x-cxlizrjnnylalfui) has joined #boycottnovellOct 24 17:13
*DavidGerard wishes ms would hurry the heck up and collapseOct 24 17:16
DavidGerardi see they managed to fiddle the numbers again this quarter, having set appropriately low analysts' expectationsOct 24 17:16
DavidGerardbut half the sales of windows since last year? OUCHOct 24 17:16
DaemonFCDavidGerard, It's the same reason why sales of everything is downOct 24 17:27
DaemonFCthe economy sucks, people hold onto the money they haveOct 24 17:27
DaemonFCthey figure they can make that older computer last another year or twoOct 24 17:28
DaemonFCno new Windows sale to them this yearOct 24 17:28
Sir_Konradby installing Windows 7.Oct 24 17:28
Mutex_yes people think keeping their home is more important than a new OSOct 24 17:28
DaemonFCMutex_, Funny how people think like that isn't it?Oct 24 17:28
Mutex_yes go figure :)Oct 24 17:29
DaemonFCI mean they can have Windows 7 on their PC while they're out in the alley keeping their hands warm over a flaming barrel of trashOct 24 17:29
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[popey] Anyone wanna buy a couple of lightly used 'Art of Community' books, lightly soiled?Oct 24 17:29
DaemonFCWhat *ARE* these people thinking?Oct 24 17:29
DaemonFC:)Oct 24 17:29
Sir_KonradDaemonFC, they're glad they don't or don't know about Linux.Oct 24 17:32
Mutex_mabey they should of purchased $1000 worth of MSFT shares when it listed, at 0.0955 per shareOct 24 17:32
Sir_Konrad*don't useOct 24 17:32
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[popey] Wondering if @andysc will expense the £150 he bid in auction for the #lrl2009 banner to IBMOct 24 17:33
Mutex_so that would be approx 10c a share, so $1000 would get you approx 100,000 shares x say $28 = alot of steak dinners.Oct 24 17:38
DavidGerardthat's dollar value that's halved since last year, not units soldOct 24 17:40
DavidGerardi'd credit netbooksOct 24 17:40
DavidGerardi suppose lack of corporate sales are big there - that's a huge chunk of ms's marketOct 24 17:42
Mutex_or you could of invested your $1000 into RHT at $42 a share when it listed, and be happy with its $28 dollar value today !!Oct 24 17:42
DavidGerardboxed copies aren't something ms sells many of at all, they're basically brand awareness and keeping a perception of monopoly in the shopsOct 24 17:43
Mutex_well at least they have something to sell. Oct 24 17:45
DaemonFChmmmOct 24 17:47
DaemonFC 24 17:47
DaemonFCThe Republicans may find themselves in a schism if they lose that race to a third party candidateOct 24 17:48
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DaemonFCtheir party is breaking up pretty quicklyOct 24 17:50
Sir_Konradbye byeOct 24 17:51
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-BNc/#boycottnovell-[davidgerard] RT @wiki_nihiltres Via auto-tsltn of @zhwp, realized uses some Commons pix :D #wikimediaOct 24 17:55
DavidGerardDaemonFC: the trouble is the third-party candidate is from the lunatic wingOct 24 17:55
DavidGerardit'll further entrench the lunaticsOct 24 17:55
DaemonFCDavidGerard, That's not a bad thingOct 24 17:56
DaemonFCeither he causes a split and the Democrat winsOct 24 17:56
DaemonFCor he wins, the right wing radicals get fired up, and the Republican party splits in twoOct 24 17:56
DavidGerarda coupla wingnuts were posting to ubuntu-sounder listOct 24 17:56
DavidGerardthe non-americans were trying to translate their responses into senseOct 24 17:56
DavidGerardthe words and syntax LOOKED like English, but very few of the words meant anything they were actually using them to meanOct 24 17:57
DavidGerardi mean, sounder is the off-topic list. it's the designated place for bad threads to be sent to die. that some of us are camped out there is for our own amusement.Oct 24 17:57
DavidGerardbut still. o_0Oct 24 17:57
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-BNc/#boycottnovell-[popey] #lrl2009 Aq to audience: "Put your hand up if you're standing up"Oct 24 18:07
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DaemonFCDavidGerard, I'm glad that Cheney is still making an ass of himself for that matterOct 24 18:14
DaemonFCserves as a kind of constant reminder of how bad the last guys wereOct 24 18:14
zer0c00lhey DaemonFCOct 24 18:14
zer0c00lGood after noon (?)Oct 24 18:15
DaemonFCMy favorite line still has to be "We kept America safe", if you just ignore that tiny little incident on 9-11-01, the fact that Bin Laden got away, the fact that the Taliban came back, the fact that they never did catch the guy that was sending out Anthrax letters, the fact that New Orleans was left underwater and it took weeks for a real rescue effort to get underway.......Oct 24 18:16
DaemonFCzer0c00l, 1:14 PM, so yes :)Oct 24 18:16
Mutex_but apart from that they did ok right !!!Oct 24 18:16
DaemonFCMutex_, Well, depends on where you would like me to stop reallyOct 24 18:17
DaemonFCCheney compared himself to Darth Vader once, which would make Bush "Palpatine" and that's just giving them both too much creditOct 24 18:18
Mutex_yes, im sure you could go on, and include the 10billion per month on a false war in Iraq, or the 11Trillion pissed against the wall, patriot act, FBI spying on it's own people, ...........Oct 24 18:18
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DaemonFC$700 billion handed out to banks as a reward for the banks giving out predatory loans and causing the messOct 24 18:19
*DavidGerard goes nowOct 24 18:19
DaemonFCas they slash food stamps, medicaid, medicare, and there's no social security raise for this yearOct 24 18:20
DavidGerardoff to sleep for a bitOct 24 18:20
Mutex_oh there is that as well. but GWB kept the country safe on "his watch". Oct 24 18:20
DavidGerardhave fun!Oct 24 18:20
*DavidGerard has quit ("Leaving")Oct 24 18:20
silnerIs @popey in every channel on IRC :)Oct 24 18:20
DaemonFCMutex_, To be fair though, in any country with a central banking system, money needs only be printedOct 24 18:20
popeyhehOct 24 18:20
popeynot all silner Oct 24 18:21
DaemonFCsometimes it's not even printed, it's just imaginedOct 24 18:21
silnerDunno why I did the @ there - windows confusion :)Oct 24 18:21
DaemonFConly about 5% of US currency even exists as paperOct 24 18:21
Mutex_the rest is red ink in deptOct 24 18:21
DaemonFCthe rest is totally imaginaryOct 24 18:21
DaemonFCdoesn't physically exist at allOct 24 18:21
DaemonFCif people stop believing in it, it will go awayOct 24 18:22
Mutex_until the other countries call in their deptsOct 24 18:22
DaemonFCMutex_, At which point the US government will collapseOct 24 18:22
DaemonFCbut another government will set up and declare the last government's debt voidOct 24 18:22
DaemonFCif that were to happenOct 24 18:23
Mutex_yes, no fed to bail them out )Oct 24 18:23
Mutex_I still find it bizaar that Bush would be elected (first time), and totally unbeliable that he was voted in TWICE, I mean, what were you guys thinking, ???? :)Oct 24 18:26
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-BNi/#boycottnovell-[sagarun/@sagarun] !emacs guys try M-x butterfly and M-x animate-birthday-present ; Damn just discovered that; :DOct 24 18:29
-BNi/#boycottnovell-[sagarun/@sagarun] Guys try M-x butterfly and M-x animate-birthday-present ; Damn just discovered that; :D !emacsOct 24 18:29
*JPerlow ( has joined #boycottnovellOct 24 18:31
DaemonFCMutex_, He never got a majority of votesOct 24 18:43
DaemonFCvoter fraud and irregularities in the electoral college got him inOct 24 18:44
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DaemonFCOne of the comments I made on CNN last year was "What if the Republicans defraud the voters again to get McCain in?"Oct 24 18:45
DaemonFCI'm pretty sure they knew it would be close in Florida and Ohio and so they were able to rig the vote tally on a county level in a few states to make it look like Bush won in a close electionOct 24 18:46
DaemonFCI'm not convinced that the people behind the vote rigging control the final tally in most states or countiesOct 24 18:47
DaemonFCthey probably did try to add votes for McCain last year, there were irregularities and 10,000 unexplained extra votes in one Ohio county that went for Bush a couple timesOct 24 18:47
DaemonFCso I think they tried to hijack the election in favor of McCain and lost anyway because enough people turned out and voted ObamaOct 24 18:48
DaemonFCbut the states that are controlled by Republicans intentionally did things to cause 3-4-5 hour lines in areas where minorities would be going to vote or in counties that favored the DemocratsOct 24 18:48
DaemonFCthe Indiana Republican Party tried to get three counties with lots of black people to have to shut down their early voting sites due to some technicality in the state lawOct 24 18:49
DaemonFCthe courts ruled against them thoughOct 24 18:49
DaemonFCpretty much everywhere you see voter fraud or disenfranchisement in the US, it's the Republicans that are behind it, Mutex_ Oct 24 18:50
DaemonFCthat's your answer :)Oct 24 18:50
schestowitzpopey: you got them playing classicalOct 24 18:51
DaemonFCmy guess is that McCain really lost with a vote count of a million or so under what was reported and that the Republicans probably succeeded in frustrating a million Democrats into going home without votingOct 24 18:52
DaemonFCthat's enough to win a close electionOct 24 18:52
DaemonFCthe last thing that Premier Voting Systems (Formerly Diebold) wants to do is hand the election to the Republicans and make it look unbelievably easyOct 24 18:53
schestowitz 24 18:53
DaemonFCit's like they're trying to rig a pinball machine, but if you bump it too hard you get a TILTOct 24 18:54
schestowitzDaemonFC: did you see The Power of Nightmares?Oct 24 18:54
DaemonFCschestowitz, NoOct 24 18:54
schestowitzI'm almost done now with part III (it's 3 hours long)Oct 24 18:54
DaemonFCThis is though, why I don't ever think that proprietary software should be used on voting machinesOct 24 18:54
zer0c00lschestowitz: is that some kind of movie?Oct 24 18:54
DaemonFCit makes it very easy to tamper with them with no fingerprintsOct 24 18:55
zer0c00lschestowitz: "The power of night mares"Oct 24 18:55
schestowitzDaemonFC: 24 18:55
schestowitzTry it. You'll enjoy it.Oct 24 18:55
schestowitzThat's part 1 of volume 1Oct 24 18:55
schestowitzzer0c00l: watch it alsoOct 24 18:55
zer0c00lschestowitz: okOct 24 18:55
schestowitzIt's a high-quality programmeOct 24 18:55
schestowitz "Is anyone other than Nokia/Symbian using Symbian code at all? (via @schestowitz) Yes NTT Docomo FOMA-S, plus few Samsung & LG phones."Oct 24 18:56
schestowitzAha!Oct 24 18:56
schestowitz "@schestowitz NTT Docomo FOMA-S uses Symbian while FOMA-L uses Linux. Both part of the I-Mode ecosystem.:"Oct 24 18:57
zer0c00lDOCOMO ?Oct 24 18:57
schestowitz "@GuamGuy @schestowitz Dont forget Sony Ericsson #Symbian"Oct 24 18:58
schestowitzzer0c00l: yesOct 24 18:58
schestowitzIndian, right?Oct 24 18:58
zer0c00lwe have a network named DOCOMO, which bills per second;Oct 24 18:58
zer0c00lschestowitz: yesOct 24 18:58
zer0c00lTata DocomoOct 24 18:58
zer0c00lschestowitz: NTT DOCOMO is different from indian DOCOMOOct 24 18:59
schestowitzI knowOct 24 18:59
schestowitzWhy do I think there's also s/t in Japan?Oct 24 18:59
zer0c00l 24 18:59
schestowitzOr maybe the CEO was this Japanese ladyOct 24 19:00
zer0c00l"The DOCOMO logo is a trademark of NTT DOCOMO, INC. (Japan) in India"Oct 24 19:01
zer0c00l 24 19:01
zer0c00lNTT docomo runs tata docomo;Oct 24 19:01
schestowitzAha.Oct 24 19:01
schestowitzSo I wasn't totally offOct 24 19:01
schestowitzI thought it was Japanese until recently I saw it described as IndianOct 24 19:01
schestowitzACCESS is also JapaneseOct 24 19:01
zer0c00lokOct 24 19:02
zer0c00l 24 19:02
zer0c00lsymbian is a Free software?Oct 24 19:03
schestowitzNot sureOct 24 19:03
schestowitzis EPL on the FSF's list?Oct 24 19:03
zer0c00lEPL? Oct 24 19:04
schestowitzYesOct 24 19:05
schestowitzEclipseOct 24 19:05
zer0c00lokOct 24 19:05
schestowitzI'm gonna do some Linux news nowOct 24 19:05
schestowitzOught to take a few housOct 24 19:05
schestowitz*hoursOct 24 19:05
schestowitzThen I'll do some postsOct 24 19:05
schestowitzJust got back from the gym, had a shower..Oct 24 19:05
zer0c00lI thought of English premier league :DOct 24 19:05
zer0c00llolOct 24 19:05
schestowitzHeh.Oct 24 19:17
schestowitzNo, I'm not playing much football anymoreOct 24 19:17
schestowitzI was a pro goalkepeer for ages, with medals :-)Oct 24 19:17
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] #Wine 1.1.32 is Officially Released #unix #linuxOct 24 19:23
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] #GNU #Linux Day 2009 Descends Upon #Italy 24 19:25
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-BNc/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] New #Audiocasts from #Ohio #Linuxfest 2009 and #LugRadio 24 19:26
zer0c00llaterOct 24 19:26
*zer0c00l has quit ("ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)")Oct 24 19:26
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] Jamie from ZDNet Calls for #Windows Refunds, Debunks #GNU #Linux #Myths 24 19:28
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] #ZaReason Does Well with #GNU #Linux Servers and Expands 24 19:29
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] #Cosmos is Moving to #GNU #Linux 24 19:33
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] #BorderGatewayProtocol Defended with #GNU #Linux Variant, with #ZebOS #bgpOct 24 19:35
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] #XServer 1.7.1 is Released, Picking up Pace #linux #kernelspaceOct 24 19:36
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] Many New Lists of #GNU #Linux Applications 24 19:39
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] Computer #Game #LordsAWar 0.1.6 for #GNU #Linux is Released 24 19:39
oiaohmOk local file mirror has kinda gone bonkers.  Fedora is in the debain folder and debian is in the fedora folder.Oct 24 19:39
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schestowitzLocal file mirror?Oct 24 19:41
oiaohmTo be more correct ISP file mirror that mine replicates off.Oct 24 19:44
schestowitzOhOct 24 19:44
schestowitzLike the ones from BigpondOct 24 19:44
schestowitzWhere they store OOo locallyOct 24 19:44
oiaohmYepOct 24 19:45
schestowitzOr stored ratherOct 24 19:45
schestowitzThey stopped last I learned...Oct 24 19:45
schestowitzBigpongf-TelstraOct 24 19:45
schestowitzMicrosoft in boardOct 24 19:45
schestowitzNeutralityOct 24 19:45
schestowitzAnd they have an OOo rivalOct 24 19:45
schestowitzSaaSOct 24 19:45
oiaohmbigpond has a request system.Oct 24 19:45
schestowitzSo conflict of interestsOct 24 19:45
oiaohmFor there filemirror.Oct 24 19:45
oiaohmMost of the time OOo is on there.Oct 24 19:45
schestowitzHow many underwater cable does Aussie feed on?Oct 24 19:45
schestowitz*cablesOct 24 19:46
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] #GNOME Desktop Environment Gets #Clutter , New Journal 24 19:46
*magentar ( has joined #boycottnovellOct 24 19:46
oiaohmI think 5 schestowitz but I would have to look it up.Oct 24 19:46
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] #Amarok 2.2.0 a Major Improvement; #KDE Updates 24 19:50
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] New #Foresight #Linux is Coming 24 19:50
oiaohmMost connect into syndey and perth schestowitz.   Basically disconnect 2 citys and that is most of the internet links to australia gone.Oct 24 19:50
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] #Fedora 12 Looks Fantastic: "It Was My Idea..." 24 19:52
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] #Screenshots of #Ubuntu #GNU #Linux 9.10 #ReleaseCandidate 24 19:54
Mutex_I thought the second major internet hub was Adelaide.Oct 24 19:57
oiaohmOk I got it wrong there are 4 fiber link points to australia.  I was counting tansmania as the 5 yes its a under water cable.   9 internet linking cables.  And 1 just linking out to new CalendonaOct 24 19:57
oiaohmThat is land line hub Mutex_Oct 24 19:57
oiaohmNot internationalOct 24 19:57
Mutex_ok, Oct 24 19:57
oiaohmPerth is too far way from most of the population to be used as the second land line hubOct 24 19:58
Mutex_we do have a domestic fibre backbone at least along the east coast.Oct 24 19:59
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] #gnu #Linux #Mint 7 with Older #KDE Reviewed and Liked 24 20:00
oiaohmThe domestic fiber reachs all the way accross to perth Mutex_Oct 24 20:00
Mutex_yes, I expected it would.Oct 24 20:00
oiaohmUp threw the center is still a bit light on.Oct 24 20:00
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] More #EInk #Devices (like #EReaders ) Target #Linux with #ARM 24 20:01
Mutex_yes, alice has a good connection, but further north is gets shaky, until Darwin.Oct 24 20:01
Mutex_we also have satellite services so you can get online anywhere in Aus if you need too.Oct 24 20:02
oiaohm  The population map explains the issue.Oct 24 20:03
DaemonFCI've come up with a new scheme to get myself off my daily coffee and sodaOct 24 20:03
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] #Linux Gadget ( #Swindle ) Boosts #Amazon 's Profits 24 20:04
DaemonFCI set up an auto transfer from checking to savings of $3.09 every dayOct 24 20:04
Mutex_2.7 people per square kilometer :)Oct 24 20:04
Mutex_not many of us :)Oct 24 20:04
DaemonFCprice of 1 large coffee and 1 2 liter of sodaOct 24 20:04
oiaohmLook at the map.Oct 24 20:04
oiaohmIts funny Mutex_Oct 24 20:04
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] #Android #Linux Gets the Blessings of the US #Military #linuxwarsOct 24 20:05
oiaohmLarge percentage of Australia is less tha 1 person per square km.Oct 24 20:05
Mutex_lol, yea "big empty"Oct 24 20:05
oiaohmBy Australia you would say humans like to live in popluations great than 10 000 people per km.Oct 24 20:06
DaemonFCMicrosoft shares are up 5% todayOct 24 20:06
DaemonFCseems like only yesterday that Windows 95 was causing a stock splitOct 24 20:07
DaemonFCand now all the launch of Windows 7 can do is bump them up 5 points?Oct 24 20:07
oiaohm5 percent can be part of the normal weely swing.Oct 24 20:07
schestowitzCanada is similarOct 24 20:07
DaemonFCI actually really liked the copy of Windows 95 OSR 2.1 that came with the PC I bought back thenOct 24 20:09
DaemonFCUSB and FAT32 supportOct 24 20:09
schestowitzBut it's mostly less inhibitable in winter.., worse than FinlandOct 24 20:09
DaemonFCI kept it around on various boxes for quite a whileOct 24 20:09
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schestowitzDaemonFC: MSFT is not up todayOct 24 20:09
schestowitzThere's no trading todayOct 24 20:10
oiaohmMost of australia is desert country dry only reason out there is mining.Oct 24 20:10
DaemonFCthe retail Windows 95 had no USB support and was limited to 2 GB hard disksOct 24 20:10
DaemonFCthe OEM Service Releases were only with a new PC, but there was not activation, o you could run it on anything you wantedOct 24 20:10
schestowitzoiaohm: surely it can be transformedOct 24 20:10
Mutex_it's funny Win95 seemed ok, but still not as good as AmigaOS, that I has since 1988Oct 24 20:10
DaemonFC*noOct 24 20:10
schestowitzMany countries did just thatOct 24 20:10
schestowitzUAEOct 24 20:10
DaemonFCMutex_, Windows 98 was really just Windows 95 OSR 2.1 with Internet Explorer welded onto itOct 24 20:11
DaemonFC:)Oct 24 20:11
*schestowitz back to newsOct 24 20:11
DaemonFCIE 3 came with Windows 95 OSR 2.1, but you could edit a few setup files and it wouldn't get installedOct 24 20:11
omar_Hi allOct 24 20:11
DaemonFCor you could grab the IE 3 installer, install it, and then uninstall it with the new Add/Remove entryOct 24 20:11
Mutex_we dont have the water inland, there is a proposal of a huge dam in the north, to hold the water from the wet season, and the "snowy river scheme" was originally designed to pipe water inland from the great divide.Oct 24 20:12
DaemonFCthe craptacular "shell update" was an optional part of IE 4Oct 24 20:12
oiaohmschestowitz: Thinking before the natvies got here with fire the center of australia was like the amazon.   Lot of work could turn it back.Oct 24 20:12
DaemonFCI made the mistake of trying to try it out and it rendered my system unusableOct 24 20:12
Mutex_that is exactly right oiaohm, and not that many people here know that.Oct 24 20:12
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] #Subnotebooks Running #GNU #Linux Hey Nice #Meshing Technology 24 20:13
cubezzzAmigaDOS was better than Win95, I agreeOct 24 20:13
oiaohmAnd I do mean exactly like the amazon.Oct 24 20:13
DaemonFCoiaohm, IE and the shell are more or less separated again if you install IE 7 or 8 on XP, or use Vista or 7Oct 24 20:13
Mutex_win95 was the reason I started using LinuxOct 24 20:13
oiaohmClear the trees lose everything schestowitzOct 24 20:13
DaemonFCMicrosoft basically admitted with that that IE's shell integration was causing a lot of exploitsOct 24 20:14
cubezzzhow does one restart X in Fedora 11, I don't seem to be able to ctrl-alt-backspaceOct 24 20:14
Mutex_with megafournaOct 24 20:14
Mutex_giant kangaroos and suchOct 24 20:14
oiaohmYep megafourna scarly large native animails.Oct 24 20:14
DaemonFCcubezzz, By editing Xorg.confOct 24 20:15
Mutex_and probably "drop bears" :)Oct 24 20:15
DaemonFCsome idiots apaprently were somehow accidentally hitting ctrl-alt-backspace by mistakeOct 24 20:15
DaemonFC:POct 24 20:15
cubezzzkind of hard to do by accidentOct 24 20:15
DaemonFCcubezzz, That was the official answer anywayOct 24 20:16
DaemonFCI don't see how you wouldOct 24 20:16
oiaohmLot of the old native stories about running into huge native creates twice the high of normal humans for creatures that are barely 30 cm tall now are most likely true by the bones that have been found.Oct 24 20:16
*PeterKraus has quit (Remote closed the connection)Oct 24 20:16
cubezzzthe hobbit theory?Oct 24 20:16
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] New #Benchmarks Demonstrate That #GNU #Linux Gets Faster Over Time 24 20:17
Mutex_the hobbit is in indonesiaOct 24 20:17
oiaohmAustralia did the reverse cubezzzOct 24 20:17
oiaohmSmall creatures ended up huge after the dinos disappeared.Oct 24 20:17
oiaohmThen man appeared and the reduced back.Oct 24 20:17
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] #GNU #Linux Sub-notebooks ALlve and Kicking (Especially Outside US) 24 20:18
cubezzzthe squirrels around here seem to be getting biggerOct 24 20:18
Mutex_we still have some quite big birds here, and if you ever meet up with a 7 foot tall "big red" you might be introuble.Oct 24 20:18
oiaohmIts a bit like the salt water crocs here we have not seen any need full sized in over 60 years.Oct 24 20:18
Mutex_they are protected now, so their numbers (and size) is certainly increasing nowdays.Oct 24 20:19
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] #Review of #FreeSoftware #Phone #VanAccess IP0020 #citadel #asteriskOct 24 20:20
oiaohmThere is a status of one of the largest salt water crocs caught.  It is god darn scary.   You could basically lay in it mouth and it could close aroudn you not taking a bit out of you.Oct 24 20:20
oiaohmand that was only killed 100 years ago.Oct 24 20:20
cubezzzone weird thing I don't understand is why the passenger pigeon went extinctOct 24 20:20
cubezzzeventually there were millions of themOct 24 20:20
cubezzzevidentlyOct 24 20:21
oiaohmThere have been very few large flying things.Oct 24 20:21
cubezzzhow big was the pterodactyl?Oct 24 20:22
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] #Adobe Claims to be a Friend of #FreeSoftware (No Kidding!) #schizoOct 24 20:22
oiaohmThe scary part about most salt water crocs is most die from starvation or desease or humans.  None have been recored dieing from old age.Oct 24 20:22
oiaohmOk or other crocsOct 24 20:23
oiaohmBasically no old age deaths.Oct 24 20:23
Mutex_very few things in nature die from old age.Oct 24 20:23
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] #OpenDatabaseAlliance and #MySQL 's Vocation in the News 24 20:24
oiaohmZoos never have recorded a salt water croc dieing from old age either Mutex_Oct 24 20:24
cubezzzinterestingOct 24 20:24
Mutex_oh ok, yes, interesting, they are the top preditor so you would expect them to last, but in the wild you get old and slow, you cant feed yourself.Oct 24 20:24
oiaohmBy the size of some of the old salt water crocs killed by humans and croc general growth rate.  They could possiable live for over 1000 years.Oct 24 20:25
oiaohmAnd that would kinda explain why we have not seen any die from old age.Oct 24 20:26
*omar_ is now known as Omar87Oct 24 20:26
Omar87Hi all.Oct 24 20:26
oiaohmThat is the thing Mutex_ larger a croc is the faster it can attack from water.Oct 24 20:27
cubezzzthere was that whale with the 18-century harpoon stuck in itOct 24 20:27
Mutex_I think the oldest known living thing, is the giant turtles, I think they last 200 or 300 years. not exactly sure.Oct 24 20:27
cubezzzso whales can live for centuries, not too surprisingOct 24 20:27
cubezzzno, giant clam is at least 400 yearsOct 24 20:27
cubezzzfor animalOct 24 20:27
oiaohmProblem is we are not 100 percent sure of how to age a croc.  And we killed all the really old ones and only realy measured there size.Oct 24 20:28
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] Review of Free #CMS Software, #Drupal Celebrates Big Wins 24 20:29
cubezzz 24 20:29
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] #FreeSoftware and #GNU #Linux Are Changing the IT Landscape 24 20:30
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oiaohmwhales have a lot faster growth rate than crocs cubezzzOct 24 20:30
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] #OpenOffice 4 Kids in #Review 24 20:31
cubezzzI can believe itOct 24 20:31
oiaohmKilling the whales that humans did also took away a large croc food source.Oct 24 20:31
oiaohmyou have to remember salt water crocs are called salt water crocs because they are sea going.Oct 24 20:31
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] Open Sauce CEO Bashes #Proprietary Software in #Forbes Magazine blog 24 20:32
*PeterKraus has quit (Client Quit)Oct 24 20:32
oiaohmOnly fairly large ones go out into the sea.  Other wises sharks are a problem for them.Oct 24 20:32
cubezzzI imagine a giant clam in cold water would grow even slowerOct 24 20:32
Mutex_yes, thats an interesting article cubezzzOct 24 20:33
JPerlowI've had giant clam. It's tasty.Oct 24 20:33
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] #FreeSoftware conference Comes to #Portland , Arrives Soon 24 20:34
oiaohmAdobe is a friend to open source in a way.   They have always ended up documenting there fileformats of there own free will.  And never done anything agressive.  Oct 24 20:34
oiaohmcould they been more helpful at times yes.  But You cannot have everything.Oct 24 20:34
cubezzzyeah, I just don't see Adobe as FOSS friendlyOct 24 20:37
oiaohmHave they done anything that is unfriendly majorally cubezzzOct 24 20:38
JPerlowby definition, no corporation which produces commercial, closed source-software is "friendly" to Free Software. Free Software classifies this as "unethical".Oct 24 20:38
oiaohmSo you hate redhat JPerlowOct 24 20:38
cubezzzwell let me put it this wayOct 24 20:38
cubezzzgnash has a looong way to goOct 24 20:38
JPerlowno. I am simply stating the Free Software definition.Oct 24 20:38
JPerlowby definition, Free Software would also have to classify Redhat as an unethical company.Oct 24 20:39
cubezzzthere are degrees Oct 24 20:39
cubezzzlet's not go all black & white hereOct 24 20:39
oiaohmadobe works by open spec JPerlowOct 24 20:39
JPerlowNot all of their software is open.Oct 24 20:40
oiaohmSo even that you don't have source code of application you can still access the data.Oct 24 20:40
oiaohmYou will find all formats of adobe are open spec JPerlowOct 24 20:40
JPerlowPDF was only opened recently.Oct 24 20:41
oiaohmDefine recently.Oct 24 20:41
JPerlow2008.Oct 24 20:41
oiaohmLOLOct 24 20:41
oiaohmspec to PDF was released in 1992Oct 24 20:41
JPerlownot the most current implementationOct 24 20:41
oiaohmxpdf used the spec to create it.Oct 24 20:41
Mutex_not even all conicals SW is open either.Oct 24 20:41
cubezzzit's still binary blob city re: flashOct 24 20:41
oiaohm2008 was just a update to spec they release a update every 2 years.Oct 24 20:42
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] #Licensing Question: Can #FreeSoftware be 'Less Strict' Than #OpenSource ? 24 20:42
oiaohmflash issues are more complex.  Lot of the items of flash that are not open spec adobe has licenced from others.Oct 24 20:42
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] #Government of #Kerala on Track with #FreeSoftware , #SanFrancisco Awakens 24 20:43
oiaohmSo 2010 we should see another pdf spec update.Oct 24 20:43
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-BNc/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] Creativity of Crowds Validates #FreeSoftware Model 24 20:44
cubezzzlooking for kweather for fedora 11Oct 24 20:44
JPerlowoiaohm it was not an ISO standard until july of 2008.Oct 24 20:45
oiaohmYet spec was released long before that JPerlowOct 24 20:45
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] #Interview with Ruby on Rails' Father, #ZendCon Coverage #dhhOct 24 20:46
oiaohmThe condition on use of the spec was not to release programs with the goal to bipass the pdf copy protection.Oct 24 20:46
JPerlowand until recently the third party implementations with the most recent support were closedOct 24 20:46
oiaohmSo what is xpdf JPerlowOct 24 20:46
JPerlowa front end to ghostscriptOct 24 20:47
oiaohmThe first implementation other than adobe reader.Oct 24 20:47
oiaohmLOLOct 24 20:47
cubezzzkpdf tooOct 24 20:47
JPerlowtalk to the guy who runs artifex and see if he's a Free Software advocate.Oct 24 20:47
JPerlowlolOct 24 20:47
oiaohmxpdf translates from pdf to psOct 24 20:47
oiaohmxpdf predates ghostscript being able to process pdf.Oct 24 20:48
oiaohmxpdf was the first program build from the released spec by adobe.   Most windows users are not aware of it because it never ran on windows.Oct 24 20:49
oiaohmYes there have been a lot of closed source windows programs to render pdfs.Oct 24 20:49
oiaohmThese days even gimp opens pdf files on Linux.Oct 24 20:50
oiaohmJPerlow: you have been reading too much stuff writen by MS to try to discredit pdf as a open standard so they could get xps up.Oct 24 20:51
JPerlowum, no.Oct 24 20:53
JPerlowI've talked with the guy that founded Artifex which created Ghostscript.Oct 24 20:53
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] Ideas on Escaping Lock-in in #FogComputing 24 20:54
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] #Telecom #AstroTurf Gone Botched 24 20:55
oiaohmYou are aware that xpdf tools can operate without ghostscript installed.Oct 24 20:55
oiaohmNote tools not viewer JPerlowOct 24 20:55
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] #Disney Meets #DRM Outrage 24 20:56
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] #NetNeutrality Risk Strikes Again 24 20:56
oiaohmLike converting pdf to ps for printing.Oct 24 20:56
JPerlowshow me a 100 percent adobe PDF 1.7 compliant tool suite that is FreeOct 24 20:57
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] #IntellectualMonopolies Used Against Shopkeeper 24 20:58
oiaohm  Has for a while JPerlowOct 24 20:58
oiaohmIt provides a support lib allowing other pdf views to have the same.Oct 24 20:58
JPerlowits not 100 percent compliant with the PDF that adobe generates with their own engineOct 24 20:59
oiaohmWith the PDF part it is.Oct 24 20:59
oiaohmFDF and other parts no so much.Oct 24 20:59
oiaohmBut they are different standards JPerlowOct 24 21:00
oiaohmadobe documents from there engine contain 4 standards on adverage in a PDF file.Oct 24 21:01
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-BNc/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] #GNU #Linux is Promoted in #China by the #Government 24 21:10
oiaohmHmm Research & Development  section of MS is down by 200 million on the quater.Oct 24 21:10
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] #Latvia May Move to #FreeSoftware ! 24 21:12
oiaohm   thai goverment updating books about open source software.Oct 24 21:12
Mutex_R&D historically is not the money maker, it generally an expense.Oct 24 21:13
JPerlowit's down at every major tech company.Oct 24 21:13
JPerlowpretty much across the board.Oct 24 21:13
oiaohmNo R&D no new products. Mutex_Oct 24 21:13
oiaohmList the tech companies it is down JPerlowOct 24 21:16
Mutex_SUNOct 24 21:17
JPerlowAMDOct 24 21:17
JPerlowIntelOct 24 21:17
oiaohmGoogle is holding level.  where they would have normally increased R&D expending they have not.    IBM has gone up.  HP is holding level.Oct 24 21:17
schestowitzISO is corrupt, JPerlowOct 24 21:17
schestowitzIt doesn't matter much what it did re PDFOct 24 21:17
schestowitzAnd you're lying about the FSFOct 24 21:18
schestowitzDescribing it as anti-companiesOct 24 21:18
schestowitzTypical smearOct 24 21:18
JPerlowlolOct 24 21:18
oiaohmAMD and Intel both are facing heavy competion from ARM.Oct 24 21:18
schestowitzIt's neither against companies nor money makingOct 24 21:18
schestowitzIt's pro ethics and control by customersOct 24 21:18
schestowitzFunny, eh?Oct 24 21:18
oiaohmCombind with lack of x86 sales due to MS flop JPerlowOct 24 21:18
schestowitzI can actually pay someone who repects my freedomOct 24 21:18
schestowitzMany people would pay Red HatOct 24 21:19
schestowitzCause it's better than paying to licence some blobsOct 24 21:19
schestowitzRed Hat's core is same as gratis (centos)Oct 24 21:19
oiaohmSUN most of the staff being layed off are not R&D but sales and marketing.  Mutex_Oct 24 21:19
schestowitzanyhoo... Oct 24 21:19
schestowitzBack in a moOct 24 21:19
JPerlowsorry to have disturbed your afternoon nap, no problem.Oct 24 21:19
schestowitzJPerlow: why so angry? :-)Oct 24 21:20
schestowitzI just need to try to do the links quickly enough]Oct 24 21:20
JPerlowI'm not angry :)Oct 24 21:20
JPerlowwhy should I be angryOct 24 21:20
oiaohmMerge always costs some staff as well Mutex_Oct 24 21:20
JPerlowI enjoyed your link to my ZDNet post yesterday.Oct 24 21:21
oiaohmCan you list any that have reduced there R&D that either are not being taken over or have been hurt by MS flop.Oct 24 21:21
Mutex_"MS flop" ??Oct 24 21:22
oiaohmNokia had a bad run but there R&D has not reduced.Oct 24 21:22
oiaohmIntel and AMD both geared up for huge sales from Vista.   Both ended up having a over supply of chips.  Ram makers had the same problem.Oct 24 21:23
oiaohmMost of the crunch in the IT world started before the money system turned bad.Oct 24 21:24
Mutex_plus that little thing called a "dot bomb"Oct 24 21:25
oiaohmIssue MS has the market is saturated.  Most people who need a computer with a OS already have a computer.Oct 24 21:25
oiaohmThis would have happened with or without the downturn.Oct 24 21:26
JPerlowoiaohm do you actually work for a large corporation or have anything to do with large IT budgets?Oct 24 21:26
oiaohmI am highered from time to time by large corporations to clean up messes and find secuirty issues.  This puts me in the very privilaged location to look at all data on there systems.Oct 24 21:28
oiaohmOf course under NDA JPerlowOct 24 21:29
JPerlowunder NDA?Oct 24 21:29
oiaohmNon Disclosure AgreementsOct 24 21:30
JPerloware you saying you work under NDA, or that you would only say who you work for under NDA?Oct 24 21:30
oiaohmDoing secuirty auditing is always done under NDA.  Its just the way those jobs are.  You find faults you must to leak information to others.    You see stuff in the process you must not tell anyone what you saw.Oct 24 21:32
JPerlowIn other words you do nothing which involves making financial decsions at a C-seat level.Oct 24 21:34
oiaohmNot exacatly.Oct 24 21:34
JPerlowSo therefore you have zero insight as to how large organizations spend money on IT.Oct 24 21:35
oiaohmRemember part of the process is a risk assessment on the new system before it deployed.  People like me are not that impressesed with Windows 7.Oct 24 21:35
Mutex_oimohm so you would be able to hack my Win 7  box if I gave  you my IP address ?Oct 24 21:36
oiaohmYes I don't do the final yes or no and sign over the money.Oct 24 21:36
oiaohmBut does not mean I am not asked if it is worth it or not JPerlow.Oct 24 21:37
oiaohmMutex_: There is more than just remote cracking to worry about.   It would be simpler to have you visit a web site that is targeting particular weaknesses than trying to go through firewalls.Oct 24 21:38
Mutex_so the simple answer is NO you cannot hack my Win 7 box if i give you my IP,, okOct 24 21:39
oiaohmNot exact no.Oct 24 21:39
oiaohmThere are Linux firewalls and other things in the middle that makes it tricky Mutex_Oct 24 21:39
oiaohmThey will filter out damaged packets Windows 7 is weak to.Oct 24 21:40
oiaohmBasiclaly If I have direct network access to your Windows 7 its take able.Oct 24 21:43
oiaohmIn the same kinds of ways Vista and XP are.Oct 24 21:43
Mutex_I would like to see that :) Oct 24 21:48
oiaohmThe recent smb2 one is classical.  attempted dereference of an out-of-bounds memory location.  Its a buffer overflow.  If running on a old processor without NX or with NX disable its take able about 1 in 50 attempts.Oct 24 21:52
oiaohmYes its also how many times am I allows to crash the machine before getting in.Oct 24 21:53
oiaohmHow the crashes happen the regestry can be mal written to disk.Oct 24 21:55
Mutex_ill remeber that the next time my machine starts crashing time after time after time, I might then have to assume something is wrong !!Oct 24 21:55
oiaohmSo even if attack does not get in the machine still be turned into a paper weight causing downtime.Oct 24 21:55
oiaohmPeople always think its if the system gets breached is the only critical thing.Oct 24 21:56
oiaohmTwo things are critical.  Number 1 machine stays running.  Number 2 it don't get breached.Oct 24 21:56
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oiaohmMutex_: windows uses get use to 1 or 2 crashes a hour.Oct 24 22:05
Mutex_what ??? your joking right, um ever used windows yourself. Oct 24 22:05
oiaohmThey normally put it down to windows is just play up today.Oct 24 22:06
oiaohmI did it as a test for a business to see how long before computer issues would be reported.Oct 24 22:06
Mutex_you do realise you are talking to people who actually use the product you speak of, and they are all wondering what you are doing wrong. !Oct 24 22:07
oiaohmOver 3 in a hour you would get reaction.Oct 24 22:07
oiaohmQuickly.Oct 24 22:07
_Hicham_completely agree with oiaohmOct 24 22:07
Mutex_well how do I manage to get months uptime on this little old laptop running windows ? what am i doing wrong. ?Oct 24 22:08
Mutex_how come none of my machines ever crash, Oct 24 22:08
oiaohmI did not say that windows could not get months of uptime.Oct 24 22:09
_Hicham_because u don't use themOct 24 22:09
oiaohmWindows users just seam not to report the crashes.Oct 24 22:09
Mutex_funny im sure you said "windows users get 2 to 3 crashes an hour".Oct 24 22:09
oiaohmEven when you know they are happening.Oct 24 22:09
oiaohmleft out a word Mutex_Oct 24 22:10
Mutex_so im not using my computer now ?? gee I was sure I was using my computer now,,,,, go figureOct 24 22:10
oiaohmuseOct 24 22:10
oiaohmWindows users get use to 1 to 2 crashes an hour.Oct 24 22:10
oiaohmThey will tollerate that ammout without reporting.Oct 24 22:10
Mutex_im sorry, thats just wrong, and you know it.Oct 24 22:11
oiaohmI am not wrong.Oct 24 22:11
oiaohmThe will get sick of it if it lasts more than a day.Oct 24 22:12
Mutex_well if you get that many crashes an hour, mabey your in the wrong game.Oct 24 22:12
oiaohmThis was a test to find out when the reporting would happen.Oct 24 22:12
oiaohmMac users would report on the 3 crash in the day.Oct 24 22:12
oiaohmAlmost 100 percent dependably.Oct 24 22:13
oiaohmMutex_: this is base line data to know how much of an attack would be invisible.Oct 24 22:15
Mutex_oh ok, Oct 24 22:15
oiaohmLinux and Unix users are normally about equal.Oct 24 22:15
oiaohmLittle bit better than mac.  2 crashes on adverage.Oct 24 22:15
oiaohmWe asked lot of the windows users why they were not reporting.  Common answer was a stupid one we need to get work done.Oct 24 22:16
Mutex_mission critical stuff like SCADA systems will get a response first time it crashes, if it EVER does.Oct 24 22:16
oiaohmBut that has a policy to that effect right Mutex_Oct 24 22:17
oiaohmIf you leave them without policy you will get these kinds of numbers.Oct 24 22:17
Mutex_ofcourse. SCADA system have a policy for everything.Oct 24 22:17
Mutex_It's called Quality Assurance.Oct 24 22:17
oiaohmI was shocked my self that windows users could tolerate about 8 hours of reboots costing most of the productive time in the hour.Oct 24 22:18
Mutex_they are also designed fail safe, so a crash does not affect the system as a wholeOct 24 22:18
oiaohm2 reboots is basically 40 mins at least in the hour when the computer is not usable.Oct 24 22:19
oiaohmEven more shocking was that the penny was not dropping that they were not getting there work done because the computer was not running to do it.Oct 24 22:20
oiaohmSo getting the machine fixed would get there work done quickly.Oct 24 22:21
oiaohmThe thing that worries me is how much productive time is lost to this tollerence that windows users have developed.Oct 24 22:22
oiaohmI guess doing SCADA you don't get to run human tests like this Mutex_Oct 24 22:24
Mutex_no it seems scada users dont have that issue, and I actually dont think windows users are very tolerant at all to crashes. They are infact very very rare these days, (and by these days i mean the last 10 years).Oct 24 22:25
oiaohmTest was only done a year ago Mutex_Oct 24 22:26
oiaohmPart of the issue we believe is that in a comperate world they don't want to be blamed for doing something wrong to cause the crash.Oct 24 22:27
Mutex_IMO thats a crazy test that no one in their right mind would allow to be done, "come in and crash my employees computers" and hope you dont screw anything up.  There is NO WAY that would be allowed in anything important.Oct 24 22:28
oiaohmWith SCADA something goes wrong you don't report it you are dead.  If you did something wrong and you report you are only minorally dead.Oct 24 22:28
Mutex_SCADA system operators dont need to report failures, something fails the system automatically pages a tech, who will dial in and fix it.Oct 24 22:29
oiaohmWorkers about to be retrenced doing retraining make great test subjects Mutex_Oct 24 22:29
oiaohmOf course the test subjects were not doing anything important for the business.Oct 24 22:30
oiaohmReason why its hard to do the tests and why they only happen about once every 5 years.Oct 24 22:30
oiaohmYes the information is used to effect policy and staff training.Oct 24 22:31
Mutex_so mabey the "users" are biased, and dont give a rats, and knowing they are just doing "busy work" would tend not to put as high a value on the failurs, and only just "starting" the job, they may think the machines of this company are just crap.Oct 24 22:32
Mutex_To me, it's not a very satisfactory analysis.Oct 24 22:32
Mutex_what about a AutoCAD users, loses 2 hours work because his computer crashes, he'll be in the IT depts face in SECONDS.Oct 24 22:33
-BNi/#boycottnovell-[diablod3/@diablod3] The Weirdest Clouds that You'll Ever See 24 22:44
schestowitzHi, _Hicham_Oct 24 22:51
_Hicham_Hi Lord SchestowitzOct 24 22:51
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oiaohmMutex_: particular user groups are more touchy.   Autocad users are about the same as apple and linux users.   The freak event allowance.Oct 24 22:56
oiaohmThe idea that a computer crashes it departments always get told is wrong.Oct 24 22:57
oiaohmYou don't put run of the mill hardware infrount of Autocad users if you value you life either.Oct 24 22:59
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schestowitzheh. Skip to 1:05: 24 23:04
schestowitzThis dude thinks humans have been here for 20 million years?Oct 24 23:04
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_Hicham_i have been here for 1 billion yearsOct 24 23:14
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schestowitzAnother nice video: 24 23:25
schestowitz_Hicham_: so we're the same age !1Oct 24 23:26
schestowitzJPerlow: re 24 23:29
schestowitzHow much do you know about likewise vs samba?Oct 24 23:30
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[scientes] Obama ignores that banks are not lending, keeping their money with the fed. @whitehouse #bailoutOct 24 23:33
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