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IRC: #boycottnovell @ FreeNode: January 13th, 2010

schestowitzSearch for "Freedom", get "did you mean freemason?"Jan 13 00:02
schestowitzSearch for "speech", get "did you mean spinach?"Jan 13 00:02
trmancololJan 13 00:03
MinceR 13 00:06
phIRCe-localTitle: Slashdot Comments | Politicians Worldwide Asking Questions About ACTA .::. Size~: 54.37 KBJan 13 00:06
schestowitz 13 00:08
phIRCe-localTitle: Sage Bionetworks Strikes Deal With Pfizer to Find Cancer Drug Targets | Xconomy .::. Size~: 47.99 KBJan 13 00:08
schestowitz"If Sage can convince scientists to contribute to the database, and get them collaborating through social media like Twitter and Facebook have done, then Sage hopes biologists might be able to speed up the pace of discovery of more effective drugs, just like open-source computing can create better software."Jan 13 00:08
schestowitzMinceR: I saw thatJan 13 00:08
schestowitz 13 00:10
phIRCe-localTitle: Slashdot Technology Story | Neural Nets Make Art While High .::. Size~: 142.16 KBJan 13 00:10
oiaohmMinceR: Google agreed to what China on the conditions as long as China left google services alone.   Guess what china broke agreement.  Google is not exactly freespeech.  Its more ok we will do what you want as long as you don't harm what we do.Jan 13 00:11
MinceRgoogle's approach to free speech is that "it's ok if we violate it, but you're evil if you do"Jan 13 00:12
MinceRapparently google's understanding of "do no evil" is "push all the responsibility for doing evil on others"Jan 13 00:13
oiaohmIts not like free speech has common meaning to everyone MinceRJan 13 00:13
oiaohmThe hard bit of free speech is working out what should or should not be restricted.Jan 13 00:14
MinceRmaybe it means "i say whatever i want but if anyone speaks out against me, i'll have them executed" to dictatorsJan 13 00:14
MinceRit isn't that hardJan 13 00:14
MinceRthe exceptions are few and relatively obviousJan 13 00:14
MinceRand it's even more obvious that what google helps china repress is indeed free speechJan 13 00:14
oiaohmIf not don't operate in china so cutting everyone out form all the information google can lead people to.Jan 13 00:16
oiaohmgreat china firewall MinceRJan 13 00:16
MinceRi think it's pretty obvious that the great chinese firewall violates free speechJan 13 00:16
oiaohmIts a lot harder call than you make out.  Its not like google did it willingly.   They were filtered out many times before giving.Jan 13 00:16
MinceRand helping the PRC with it validates the PRC's effortsJan 13 00:17
oiaohmCutting people out from all information also harms them MinceRJan 13 00:17
MinceRgoogle chose cash over supporting freedom and they defined this as "not evil"Jan 13 00:17
oiaohmLike google did not block how other goverments around the worlded worked from china.Jan 13 00:18
MinceRnow the PRC can point at google and say "see, they're doing censorship all the same and they say they do no evil"Jan 13 00:18
oiaohmMinceR:  do no evil is a very hard goal to meet.Jan 13 00:19
oiaohmYou do evil by being completely blocked and people not being able to know how the rest of world works.Jan 13 00:19
MinceRsure, it's very hard for someone as greedy and unscrupulous as google's leadersJan 13 00:19
oiaohmYou do evil by filtering as well.Jan 13 00:19
oiaohmQuestion is what is less evil.Jan 13 00:19
MinceRespecially eric schmidt, whose views on privacy are well knownJan 13 00:20
MinceRbut there was an honest way out of thisJan 13 00:20
MinceRnot claiming that they "do no evil"Jan 13 00:20
MinceRthen they'd be like a dozen other evil megacorpsJan 13 00:20
oiaohmMinceR: Google has tried to play by the rules.Jan 13 00:20
MinceRit's easy to blame the rulesJan 13 00:21
oiaohmdo no evil is a goal.Jan 13 00:21
MinceRit's the old "if it's legal, it must be right" claimJan 13 00:21
oiaohmNow problem is it not always achivable.Jan 13 00:21
oiaohmNo it not.Jan 13 00:21
*_goblin ( has joined #boycottnovellJan 13 00:21
MinceR"do no evil" does not mean something that will someday will be achievedJan 13 00:21
MinceRthat's not how that can be phrasedJan 13 00:21
oiaohmYou are trying to say world is abolute.Jan 13 00:21
MinceRmaybe if they said "do no evil, eventually"Jan 13 00:22
MinceRor "stop being assholes someday"Jan 13 00:22
oiaohmWorld is masive shades of grey between good and evil.Jan 13 00:22
MinceRyeah, it doesn't sound so nice, does it?Jan 13 00:22
oiaohmWhat one person classes as good another can class as evil.Jan 13 00:22
MinceRif a shade of dark gray puts up a sign saying "i'm white" it's still dark grayJan 13 00:22
MinceRyes and they can class themselves as goodJan 13 00:23
oiaohmGoal of do no evil is basically impossiable.Jan 13 00:23
MinceRdoesn't mean it makes them soJan 13 00:23
MinceRis it?Jan 13 00:23
oiaohmIt is MinceRJan 13 00:23
oiaohmNothing you do is without side effects.Jan 13 00:23
MinceRwould google perish if they 1) did no business in the PRC, 2) kept no private search records on anonymous visitors, 3) kept a normally-expiring cookie on clients and 4) allowed their registered users to truly wipe their personal data from google's servers if they wanted?Jan 13 00:24
MinceRsure, they'd be less profitable, but then they'd likely meet their goal of "do no evil"Jan 13 00:24
_goblinHello all.Jan 13 00:25
oiaohmNot doing business in the PRC also harmed the people of china.Jan 13 00:25
oiaohmso that is a + -Jan 13 00:25
MinceRthey collect and keep around way too much data on usersJan 13 00:25
MinceRnot doing business in the PRC would show a proper disapproval of censorshipJan 13 00:25
MinceRand it would help make a claim of "we do no evil" more believableJan 13 00:26
oiaohmThen google would be attacked for some for filtering items like child porn  MinceRJan 13 00:26
MinceRi think that google's behavior shows that they are hardly even trying.Jan 13 00:26
MinceRthey shouldn't filter child porn unless the user has requested to filter it (via SafeSearch)Jan 13 00:27
oiaohmOr malware sites MinceRJan 13 00:27
MinceRsame thingJan 13 00:27
oiaohmGoogle does filter for the common good.  MinceRJan 13 00:27
MinceRyeah, that's what they all sayJan 13 00:27
MinceR"it's for your own good"Jan 13 00:27
MinceRlike i didn't know what's good for meJan 13 00:27
oiaohmSo google should not remove links to virus sites from there search.Jan 13 00:27
oiaohmthis is the problem with censorship so much is required.Jan 13 00:27
MinceRby that reasoning, they should also remove links to sites like and apple.comJan 13 00:27
_goblinI see that BN logs are being quoted out of context over the MVP situation.Jan 13 00:28
MinceReither provide a neutral search engine or make the user's choices for themJan 13 00:28
MinceRthose are two different kinds of service.Jan 13 00:28
oiaohmMicrosoft and apple machines don't have to be infected and being bots spaming the net.Jan 13 00:28
MinceRthey're infected by windows and osx respectivelyJan 13 00:29
MinceRvisitors are likely to be scammedJan 13 00:29
MinceRetc.Jan 13 00:29
oiaohmNeutral google has tried early on in there history.Jan 13 00:29
oiaohmAnd end with results filled will malware.Jan 13 00:29
oiaohmAnd viruses.Jan 13 00:29
MinceRbut it wasn't profitable enough?Jan 13 00:29
_goblinFrom Twitter -----"Boycott Novell denizens want Miguel dead, it seems. "That way we don't need to have this burden": @schestowitz"Jan 13 00:29
phIRCe-localTitle: IRC: #boycottnovell @ FreeNode: January 11th, 2010 .::. Size~: 437.68 KBJan 13 00:29
MinceRand something like SafeSearch couldn't possibly work for malware?Jan 13 00:29
MinceR_goblin: so what can we do against quotes being mashed together out of context then? stop talking?Jan 13 00:30
oiaohmSafeSearch is still cenership MinceRJan 13 00:30
MinceRoiaohm: it's optionalJan 13 00:30
MinceRi can choose to turn it offJan 13 00:30
MinceRPRC residents can't choose to just turn off google's censorshipJan 13 00:31
oiaohmYou cannot turn off the child porn part.Jan 13 00:31
MinceRwell, that's censorshipJan 13 00:31
MinceRwhat if i wanted to search for child porn? :>Jan 13 00:31
_goblinMinceR: No, not at all...I think just lowering our minds to that of the LinXXX ilk and considering carefully whats typed...Jan 13 00:31
*Chips_B_Malroy (i=4731c09d@gateway/web/freenode/x-lgqeydnnbvbwpquo) has joined #boycottnovellJan 13 00:31
oiaohmChild porn production is harmful to children.Jan 13 00:31
oiaohmThis gets you back to the do no evil part.Jan 13 00:31
MinceRwhat if i wanted to find out what a certain term means ...and be prevented from finding out that it somehow also refers to child porn?Jan 13 00:31
_goblinHi ChipsJan 13 00:31
schestowitz[00:21] <oiaohm> do no evil is a goal.Jan 13 00:32
Chips_B_MalroyHi Goblin, e1Jan 13 00:32
schestowitzNo, it's PRJan 13 00:32
MinceRconsider the search on tiananmen squareJan 13 00:32
schestowitzMark Shuttleworth told them to drop this nonsense old mottoJan 13 00:32
Chips_B_Malroy 13 00:32
phIRCe-localTitle: Official Google Blog: A new approach to China .::. Size~: 83.95 KBJan 13 00:32
oiaohmThe images of it are blocked.  Not descriptions on it MinceR.  Not like you need pictures unless you are perfected.Jan 13 00:32
schestowitzNonsensical moral shieldJan 13 00:32
MinceRin china, it doesn't bring up some of the images, providing a distorted image of what it is.Jan 13 00:32
oiaohmPerverted.Jan 13 00:32
Chips_B_MalroyQuote:  "We have decided we are no longer willing to continue censoring our results on, and so over the next few weeks we will be discussing with the Chinese government the basis on which we could operate an unfiltered search engine within the law, if at all. We recognize that this may well mean having to shut down, and potentially our offices in China."Jan 13 00:33
MinceRthe job of a neutral search engine is very simple: give me a list of web pages that contain these terms, ordered by relevancy.Jan 13 00:33
MinceRthat can be morally neutral and that way it supports freedom of speechJan 13 00:33
Chips_B_Malroyanybody seen that yet?Jan 13 00:33
oiaohmThere is no neutral search engine on the internet.  MinceRJan 13 00:34
schestowitz_goblin: that's what the psychopaths always doJan 13 00:34
schestowitzTo RMS/FSF toJan 13 00:34
Chips_B_MalroyBet Bing will not shut downJan 13 00:34
MinceRChips_B_Malroy: we're discussing itJan 13 00:34
schestowitz*tooJan 13 00:34
Chips_B_MalroyokJan 13 00:34
schestowitzDistortion, then attack on straw manJan 13 00:34
MinceRgoogle is now doing the right thing about but for the wrong reason.Jan 13 00:34
schestowitzMinceR's silly remarks of death wishes shoot the site in the face againJan 13 00:34
MinceRwhich means that they'll do the wrong thing again if things change.Jan 13 00:34
schestowitzBut I did not say what they (he) claims there.... obvious case of quote out of contextJan 13 00:35
_goblinschestowitz: I thought a Psychopath was someone who merely had no empathy or remorse or conscience.....a little like the Taxman.Jan 13 00:35
oiaohmMinceR: not really.  If China goverment cannot live by there own moral rules.   Then the rules must be evil so must not be followed.Jan 13 00:35
Chips_B_MalroyNewsweek believes Microsoft will kick Ballmer to the curb in 2010.,news-5542.htmlJan 13 00:35
phIRCe-localTitle: Newsweek: Microsoft Pushing Steve Ballmer Out - Tom's Guide .::. Size~: 84.43 KBJan 13 00:35
MinceRschestowitz: that's what one gets if they treat what happens on an open chat channel as an official statement of position.Jan 13 00:35
MinceRschestowitz: and mashing quotes up out of context.Jan 13 00:35
oiaohmBasically china attempting to access google services was a breach of there own rules.Jan 13 00:36
schestowitz[00:34] <Chips_B_Malroy> Bet Bing will not shut downJan 13 00:36
schestowitzHeh.Jan 13 00:36
oiaohmIe password protected paths.Jan 13 00:36
schestowitzThey'll rerenameJan 13 00:36
schestowitzRererererenameJan 13 00:36
Chips_B_MalroyyesJan 13 00:36
schestowitzJust "bi"Jan 13 00:36
*Balrog has quit ("bye")Jan 13 00:36
schestowitzShorter than "bing" and "MSN"Jan 13 00:36
schestowitzpronounced "bye"Jan 13 00:37
MinceR"bibi"Jan 13 00:37
trmancobiJan 13 00:37
oiaohmNot like google is going to stop attempting to provide there search engine to china.  Before breaking rules and risking lots of harm you have to attempt following them to see if the problem can be improved inside the rules.Jan 13 00:37
schestowitzBong also censored in ChinaJan 13 00:38
MinceRis it so important to follow the rules of a totalitarian regime?Jan 13 00:38
schestowitzThen they got caughtJan 13 00:38
oiaohmEvery country cenorship rules have changed over the years.  MinceRJan 13 00:38
schestowitzNYT called for a boycott vs BongJan 13 00:38
schestowitzMicrosoft then blamed a "bug"Jan 13 00:38
MinceRwhat's more important, the rules or freedom?Jan 13 00:38
oiaohmRemember in the USA when talking about grog was Illegal MinceR.Jan 13 00:38
schestowitzHow about they fix their anti-Linux anti-Mac results "bug" too?Jan 13 00:38
MinceRwell, you've never seen me portray the USA as a paragon of freedom. :>Jan 13 00:38
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] @omar_s_hafez have a look: 13 00:38
phIRCe-localTitle: Jordan: The Open Source Hub Of The Middle East - Katonda .::. Size~: 27.13 KBJan 13 00:39
oiaohmAnd at the time they cliamed to have freedom of speech the complete time.  MinceRJan 13 00:39
oiaohmProviding information can change the future.  MinceRJan 13 00:39
schestowitzFreedom of peach!!Jan 13 00:39
*schestowitz goes to kitchenetteJan 13 00:39
oiaohmRemember in china schools they don't even talk about different systems of goverment.  MinceR   Something we would class as a common thing to know.Jan 13 00:40
MinceRanyway, if someone follows the link in that twatter message, they'll see the contextJan 13 00:40
Chips_B_MalroyA guess is that is just the tip of the iceburg, what Bing censues, most likely they censue, or will in the future, more stuff related to MS investments, and its largest shareholderJan 13 00:40
MinceRso unless they trust some m$ fanboy blindly or fail reading comprehension, they'll see they've been lied to.Jan 13 00:41
oiaohmMinceR: remember at first china wanted google to even filter out how other goverment systems worked.Jan 13 00:42
Chips_B_MalroyNice articles on the xbox360's lately RoyJan 13 00:42
oiaohmEverything is shades of grey.  Very hard thing for people to get MinceRJan 13 00:42
MinceRsome of those shades are very darkJan 13 00:43
schestowitzWill these kids have Linux options? 13 00:43
schestowitzChips_B_Malroy: thank Xbox for commiting suicideJan 13 00:44
oiaohmMinceR: and some can be lighted by people getting more informed.  What google did to get into china market had to be attempted.  Since it not working out they need a reason to back out.Jan 13 00:44
schestowitz*mittingJan 13 00:44
schestowitzChips_B_Malroy: I hope it doesn't dieJan 13 00:44
schestowitzWe need more products like XboxJan 13 00:44
schestowitzMore, more, more. Zune tooJan 13 00:44
schestowitzIt kills Microsoft faster, financiallyJan 13 00:45
oiaohmRemember MinceR information is power.   Lack of information makes you powerless to decide your future.Jan 13 00:45
MinceRoiaohm: they need more of a reason than that it was censorship?Jan 13 00:45
MinceRbesides, they could have supported anonymizers insteadJan 13 00:45
schestowitz 13 00:45
phIRCe-localTitle: Mozilla tantalises users with version 3.6 | Latest Industry News | News | Opinion, News, Analysis | BCS - The Chartered Institute for IT .::. Size~: 34.91 KBJan 13 00:45
oiaohmMinceR:  There was a possiablely that the censorship could have reduced over time.Jan 13 00:45
MinceRyeah, rightJan 13 00:46
Chips_B_MalroyOne of your articles, I think said that PS3 had finially overtaken XBox360 in sales even in MS home market the USA, if Walmart in the USA is now giving the XBox360 reduced space, MS is game overJan 13 00:46
oiaohmAnd it has to a point MinceRJan 13 00:46
MinceRwhen the chinese regime collapses, it will be reducedJan 13 00:46
schestowitzChips_B_Malroy: yes, chain effectJan 13 00:46
schestowitzOr "downward spiral" as he Vole calls it internallyJan 13 00:46
oiaohmLess things are censored in china now than when google first entered that market MinceRJan 13 00:46
schestowitzMinceR: maybe in 50 yearsJan 13 00:47
schestowitzGDP growth in China steadily upJan 13 00:47
*schestowitz whispers, "learn Mandarin"Jan 13 00:47
oiaohmYou have the idea that abblsote force will change things MinceR.Jan 13 00:47
oiaohmA river does not make a gorge in 1 hit.Jan 13 00:48
schestowitzIf China had more access to the 51st state (Iraq), maybe it would have enough power for DCs that compete with GOogle wellJan 13 00:48
oiaohmInstead it slowly takes piece by piece way until one day the gorge is them MinceRJan 13 00:48
oiaohmthem/thereJan 13 00:48
Chips_B_Malroy The problem was not so much that the XBox360 had those high failure rates.  The problem was bean counter Ballmer tryed to go the cheapest way possible to get by without fixing the Xbox360.  Had he just poured more money into a new XBox360, that did not have the overheating problems, he would have been better of.  Sure, it would cost more short termJan 13 00:48
Chips_B_MalroyReplace once with a good new one, rather than replace 8 times with bad onesJan 13 00:49
Chips_B_Malroyit needed a redesignJan 13 00:50
Chips_B_Malroyand then a recallJan 13 00:50
schestowitz 13 00:50
phIRCe-localTitle: Open Source: Facebook Is Now an Apache Software Foundation Gold Sponsor .::. Size~: 47.86 KBJan 13 00:50
MinceRoiaohm: this is not a "slippery slope"Jan 13 00:51
schestowitzChips_B_Malroy: too lateJan 13 00:51
MinceRthey might very well stop or make censorship stricter again.Jan 13 00:51
schestowitzxbox (1) was also a "Fail"Jan 13 00:51
schestowitzThey failed 2/2Jan 13 00:51
Chips_B_MalroyyesJan 13 00:51
Chips_B_Malroyin some ways Xbox360 is a bigger failure than even VistaJan 13 00:51
schestowitzVista 7 is no success eitherJan 13 00:52
schestowitzBUT...Jan 13 00:52
schestowitzThey didn't expect it to beJan 13 00:52
schestowitzUnlike VistaJan 13 00:52
schestowitzAhead of the release Microsoft tried to keep hoped downJan 13 00:52
schestowitz*hopesJan 13 00:52
schestowitzYou hardly hear about Vista 7 in the news anymoreJan 13 00:52
schestowitzIt has been just 2 month (plus)Jan 13 00:52
Chips_B_MalroyMS has to cook the books this next quarter, for Ballmer to survive.  MS withheld money on Windows Seven pre-ordered, so that is where they will do some of itJan 13 00:53
MinceRafaik they've been cooking them for some time alreadyJan 13 00:53
schestowitzTaken on a statistical basis, there's close to nothing. So far this year there was maybe that 'fluff' about 'godmode' and then some recycling of old gobshiteJan 13 00:53
schestowitzMinceR: yes, since the 90s at leastJan 13 00:54
schestowitzThey manages to corrupt the government and escape the SECJan 13 00:54
schestowitzSEC is a jokeJan 13 00:54
schestowitzSEC is having SEX with the companies it watchedJan 13 00:54
MinceR:>Jan 13 00:54
schestowitzSEC..... MadoffJan 13 00:54
schestowitz!google sec madoffJan 13 00:55
phIRCe-local[1] - SEC Charges Madoff Computer Programmers; 2009-243; Nov. 13, 2009 | 13 00:55
phIRCe-local[2] - SEC investigation: We missed Madoff - Sep. 2, 2009 | 13 00:55
phIRCe-local[3] - Madoff whistleblower blasts the SEC's failure - Feb. 4, 2009 | 13 00:55
phIRCe-local[4] - The SEC Watchdog Who Missed Madoff - New York News | Gossip ... | 13 00:55
schestowitz!google sec microsoft fraud settlementJan 13 00:55
phIRCe-local[1] - Microsoft Agrees To Refrain From Accounting Violations in SEC ... | 13 00:55
phIRCe-local[2] - Microsoft Agrees to Refrain From Accounting Violations in SEC ... | 13 00:55
phIRCe-local[3] - Charles Pancerzewski and Microsoft Fraud Revisited (Updated ... | 13 00:55
phIRCe-local[4] - CompliancEX: E&Y in $8.5m US accounting fraud settlement | 13 00:55
schestowitz!google ballmer criminalJan 13 00:55
phIRCe-local[1] - Steve Ballmer Should Not be Fired, He Should be Arrested | Boycott ... | 13 00:55
phIRCe-local[2] - Making fun of Ballmer | Criminal Defense Law With An Apple | 13 00:55
phIRCe-local[3] - Those criminal iPods | News Blog - CNET News | 13 00:55
phIRCe-local[4] - Steve Ballmer hatin' on Google Android « Boy Genius Report | 13 00:55
Chips_B_MalroyAlmost beginning to think its possible for Ballmer to leave this yearJan 13 00:57
MinceRthat wouldn't change anythingJan 13 00:57
MinceRexcept maybe they'd appoint someone who's less obviously ridiculousJan 13 00:57
Chips_B_Malroyit could get worse if Gates comes backJan 13 00:57
MinceRi guess soJan 13 00:58
MinceRgates didn't make as much a clown out of himself as ballmerJan 13 00:58
oiaohmMinceR: Nothing is 100 percent without risks.  Its part of living in the world.Jan 13 00:58
MinceRthen again, gates coming back might mean he doesn't get to do his new patent-trolling and money-laundering/press-bribing "businesses", or at least not with that much attentionJan 13 00:59
oiaohmProblem with black and white approce is that it creates 100 percent stalemates.  MinceRJan 13 00:59
oiaohmSo no progress is possiable.Jan 13 00:59
MinceRoiaohm: i don't know whose black and white approach you're talking aboutJan 13 00:59
MinceRi'll readily tell you anytime that m$ and crApple are both individually more evil than googleJan 13 00:59
MinceRthat doesn't change the fact that google is evilJan 13 01:00
oiaohmIe china censors so don't to business with them.  That is black and white approce to problem.  MinceRJan 13 01:00
MinceRno it's notJan 13 01:00
Chips_B_Malroyyou have to look at who is at the helm of these companiesJan 13 01:00
oiaohmIt is MinceR. Jan 13 01:00
Chips_B_Malroyand how much power they haveJan 13 01:00
oiaohmEvil is a very simple thing to call anyone MinceRJan 13 01:01
MinceRit's very simple: censorship is evil -> if you don't want to do evil, don't do censorship -> if someone asks your help to do censorship, refuseJan 13 01:01
oiaohmI can make anyone at as evil.Jan 13 01:01
MinceRoiaohm: can you?Jan 13 01:01
oiaohmYes.Jan 13 01:01
Chips_B_MalroyScmidth I believe runs google, and seems like the most honest of the bunchJan 13 01:01
MinceRhow?Jan 13 01:01
oiaohmIt all depend on what criteria you use.Jan 13 01:01
MinceRChips_B_Malroy: yes, he's honest about not respecting anyone else's privacy at allJan 13 01:01
oiaohmAnd hard black and white makes it many times simpler  MinceRJan 13 01:02
MinceRthat's more honest than google in generalJan 13 01:02
Chips_B_Malroynever said google was perfect, only 100X better than M$Jan 13 01:02
MinceRand on that i agree with you, Chips_B_Malroy Jan 13 01:02
MinceRat least for nowJan 13 01:02
Chips_B_Malroythat tooJan 13 01:03
MinceRmaybe if they start really using all that information they keep collecting on everyone, things will get a lot worseJan 13 01:03
oiaohmIe censorchip is evil so every goverment world wide is evil.  Every company is too  MinceR.Jan 13 01:03
MinceRand i fear for what will happen thenJan 13 01:03
MinceRoiaohm: yes and noJan 13 01:03
oiaohmAny ideas how come if I take censorship is evil to it absolute.Jan 13 01:03
MinceRoiaohm: censorship is evil. i'm not sure if every government does it. government in general tends to be evil. companies don't have to be evil.Jan 13 01:04
oiaohmEven you are evil MinceR because of it.Jan 13 01:04
MinceRexplain.Jan 13 01:04
oiaohmDo you keep secrets or ever have.  MinceRJan 13 01:04
MinceRi doJan 13 01:04
oiaohmSo you do censor information you provide.Jan 13 01:04
MinceRbut it seems that you don't quite understand what "censorship" isJan 13 01:04
oiaohmso evil at the absolute.Jan 13 01:04
MinceRand what does this have to do with the operation of a search engine?Jan 13 01:05
oiaohmMost people don't think of terms in there absolute.Jan 13 01:05
oiaohmYou are using a shade of grey and not even aware of it.Jan 13 01:05
MinceRis information about how the PRC oppresses its residents somehow google's secret?Jan 13 01:05
MinceRor perhaps it infringes on someone's privacy?Jan 13 01:06
oiaohmHave you not oppressed information about things other people have done wrong.Jan 13 01:06
oiaohmSo you can get along and do you job.Jan 13 01:06
MinceRi'm talking about oppressing _people_, not informationJan 13 01:06
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[davidgerard] ARSE. upgraded dell c610 etch->hardy->karmic. now won't show windows in grub.conf, ubuntu drops to busybox. no cd, no usb boot. help!Jan 13 01:06
schestowitz[00:57] <Chips_B_Malroy> it could get worse if Gates comes backJan 13 01:07
schestowitzHe never leftJan 13 01:07
oiaohmIts the same thing MinceRJan 13 01:07
MinceRno, it's not the same thingJan 13 01:07
Chips_B_MalroyWhatever you think about Google and China, surely for whatever reason, this is a step in the right direction by Google and their do no evil policy.Jan 13 01:07
Diablo-D3wellJan 13 01:07
schestowitzHe's n the campus part time and lobbying the rest of the timeJan 13 01:07
Diablo-D3gates really stepped down years agoJan 13 01:07
Diablo-D3even if it was just in his headJan 13 01:07
MinceRinformation has no "human rights"Jan 13 01:07
oiaohmYou would have yourself subpresssed information to get along with some people.  MinceRJan 13 01:07
MinceRpeople have rights, objects do not.Jan 13 01:07
oiaohmThere are no thing as human rights.  They are something we like to believe exists.  MinceRJan 13 01:08
MinceRpeople should have the right to control their own private information and they should have the right to access information that's necessary to keep their government (if any) honest.Jan 13 01:08
schestowitzThe Chicago School also wants us to believe corporations have rightsJan 13 01:08
oiaohmThey have been taken away in every country at a stroke of pen.  MinceRJan 13 01:08
schestowitzAs though they are organisms with feelingsJan 13 01:08
MinceRoiaohm: so google is Good(tm) because rights don't exist?Jan 13 01:08
schestowitz[01:07] <MinceR> people have rights, objects do not.Jan 13 01:08
schestowitzWait.Jan 13 01:08
MinceRoiaohm: and why have they been taken away?Jan 13 01:09
schestowitzInfo is not an objectJan 13 01:09
schestowitz[01:07] <MinceR> information has no "human rights"Jan 13 01:09
Diablo-D3corporations do have rights: they have the right to suck my dickJan 13 01:09
MinceRschestowitz: it isn't a person either.Jan 13 01:09
Diablo-D3tgats a very important right imoJan 13 01:09
schestowitzIt's a failure in a school of thought and policyJan 13 01:09
schestowitzIt led to part of the messJan 13 01:10
schestowitzAnother one is "invisible hand"Jan 13 01:10
schestowitzIt's said JUST ONCE in the bookJan 13 01:10
MinceRcorporations aren't people and shouldn't be treated as suchJan 13 01:10
schestowitzANd meaning exactly the oppositeJan 13 01:10
oiaohmMinceR: you are making arguments with items that don't exist.  They just make up your idea of right and wrong.   Human rights are a nice way to say.  I don't have to think about the effects an see of benifit out weight harm.Jan 13 01:10
schestowitzThat there is no "invisible" hand, that's just non-existentJan 13 01:10
Diablo-D3there is an invisible handJan 13 01:10
MinceRoiaohm: so in your world morality, ethics and freedom are nonexistent?Jan 13 01:10
*Diablo-D3 uses his mind to kill schestowitzJan 13 01:10
oiaohmSo I can act absolutly and be happy with my self in the mirror.  MinceRJan 13 01:10
Diablo-D3invisible hand technique! HURRRGH!Jan 13 01:11
MinceRit's easy to make google look good in that imaginary worldJan 13 01:11
schestowitzThe other day this former Softie told me he believed in self0-regulating markets and all that malarkeyJan 13 01:11
MinceRoiaohm: i'm sure Mao and his pals are happy with themselvesJan 13 01:11
Diablo-D3schestowitz: markets _can_ self regulateJan 13 01:11
Diablo-D3the problem is, we need an optionJan 13 01:11
*schestowitz screams, "the hand!"Jan 13 01:11
MinceRoiaohm: i'm sure even Hitler was happy with himselfJan 13 01:11
Diablo-D3like, I have ONE TV optionJan 13 01:11
Diablo-D3just oneJan 13 01:11
Diablo-D3cant get sat, too many treesJan 13 01:11
Diablo-D3no fios, no anything elseJan 13 01:11
*Tallken has quit ("Leaving")Jan 13 01:11
Diablo-D3theres no free market hereJan 13 01:12
MinceRDiablo-D3: can't mount the dish on a big-ass tower? :>Jan 13 01:12
*ThistleWeb has quit ("Lost terminal")Jan 13 01:12
Diablo-D3if I had a choice, even if it cost more, I'd get rid of twc as fast as possibleJan 13 01:12
Diablo-D3MinceR: not my propertyJan 13 01:12
schestowitzMinceR: so why did they commit mass suicideJan 13 01:12
MinceRoh.Jan 13 01:12
schestowitzStalin-shy?Jan 13 01:12
oiaohmEvery thing we call morality ethics and freedom.   Is about reducing harm to everyone.  MinceR  But mostly writen a absolute form.    and completely usless when you have to deal with real world problems between people.Jan 13 01:12
Diablo-D3MinceR: otherwise I'd mow down the entire forest while Im at itJan 13 01:12
schestowitzYou know, the Germany troops were forced to march shamefully for the Russian crowdsJan 13 01:12
Diablo-D3MinceR: its about a half of mile of trees in my wayJan 13 01:12
MinceRoiaohm: that's newJan 13 01:12
MinceRoiaohm: morality, ethics and freedom being useless in the real worldJan 13 01:13
MinceRoiaohm: perhaps because they've been taken from us?Jan 13 01:13
schestowitz"real world"(C)Jan 13 01:13
schestowitzJargon warningJan 13 01:13
MinceRoiaohm: do you think that if they've been taken from us once, we won't ever have any of them again?Jan 13 01:13
oiaohmBecause they don't address the true base.Jan 13 01:13
MinceRwhat's the "true base"?Jan 13 01:13
schestowitz2Jan 13 01:13
MinceRi thought it was something like NaOHJan 13 01:14
oiaohmtrue base we created morallity ethices and freedom rules to address the same problem.   How to get along with each other without killing each other.  MinceRJan 13 01:14
MinceRoiaohm: that's only a tiny little part of the problemJan 13 01:14
oiaohmNo its the core problem.  MinceRJan 13 01:15
MinceRoiaohm: just ask someone serving a life sentence in prison, whether he has everything in life and is completely free because he survives.Jan 13 01:15
MinceRsurvival isn't everything.Jan 13 01:15
oiaohmYou can have all the information in the world yet if no one is alive that can read it.  It is worthless.  MinceRJan 13 01:15
MinceRbeing in control of one's own life is everything.Jan 13 01:15
schestowitz 13 01:15
phIRCe-localTitle: View-Source Is Good? Discuss. | Continuing Intermittent Incoherency .::. Size~: 59.72 KBJan 13 01:15
oiaohmread it and use it.Jan 13 01:15
oiaohmLife is the most important thing.  MinceRJan 13 01:16
MinceRoiaohm: if i can't use it anyway, why lock it away from me?Jan 13 01:16
MinceRoiaohm: mere survival can still be an existence full of sufferingJan 13 01:16
MinceRoiaohm: that's not an ideal to strive for.Jan 13 01:16
oiaohmWhat if having that information lead to you being dead.Jan 13 01:16
schestowitzoiaohm: not really, there's incarnation in the sense of continuation and food chainJan 13 01:16
schestowitzLife is not a goalJan 13 01:16
MinceRoiaohm: getting information on its own can't kill.Jan 13 01:16
schestowitzIt's a conditionJan 13 01:16
MinceRonly clams say that getting some information can kill you. :>Jan 13 01:17
schestowitzLike bacteria in waterJan 13 01:17
oiaohmIn the case of china it could be because being found with some things could see you locked up for life.Jan 13 01:17
schestowitzJust a lot more sophisticated thoughJan 13 01:17
MinceRthat's not the same thingJan 13 01:17
oiaohmIt is the same thing.Jan 13 01:17
schestowitz[01:16] <oiaohm> What if having that information lead to you being dead.Jan 13 01:17
MinceRthat's being locked up for life for having _evidence_ of having found out about something.Jan 13 01:17
schestowitzLike e=mc^2?Jan 13 01:17
oiaohmWhile people are alive they can change the future.Jan 13 01:17
MinceRnot if they don't know the situation they're inJan 13 01:18
MinceRthe chinese can't rebel against their government if they don't know they're being oppressed.Jan 13 01:18
oiaohmRemember what I said about the river and the gorge.Jan 13 01:18
oiaohmHuman nature will always over time push for more freedoms.Jan 13 01:18
oiaohmIts just the way we are.Jan 13 01:18
MinceRalso, being locked up for life is, by your own definition, the ultimate good, because you get to surviveJan 13 01:18
MinceRand you said that's all that mattersJan 13 01:19
oiaohmBeing locked up is not lifeJan 13 01:19
MinceRoh, it isn't?Jan 13 01:19
MinceRhow so?Jan 13 01:19
oiaohmYou no longer have any choice over your actions.Jan 13 01:19
MinceRyou don't get killedJan 13 01:19
schestowitzSOme Jan 13 01:19
MinceR021338 < oiaohm> true base we created morallity ethices and freedom rules to address the same problem.   How to get along with each other without killing each other.  MinceRJan 13 01:19
schestowitzYou can think freelyJan 13 01:19
MinceRby this definition, it's solving the core problemJan 13 01:19
schestowitzMaybe have no access to new information, that's allJan 13 01:19
MinceRschestowitz: you can't think freely if you're denied the data you needJan 13 01:19
oiaohmI did not say you had to be killed quicky.Jan 13 01:19
Chips_B_MalroySee here's the thing, most rebellions take place not because of rights, (unless people are really be treated unhumane) but because economic condition are bad, or bad and not improvingJan 13 01:20
oiaohmTaking 100 years to kill someone or 5 seconds really makes no difference if the long term result is the same.  Person loses the means to change things.   MinceRJan 13 01:20
MinceRwell, most people probably want to be leadJan 13 01:20
MinceRi don'tJan 13 01:20
MinceRs/lead/led/Jan 13 01:20
Chips_B_MalroyFrench revolution, let them eat cakeJan 13 01:20
MinceRi guess this is what the term "sheeple" is about.Jan 13 01:20
schestowitzDid she say it?Jan 13 01:21
schestowitzChips_B_Malroy: I think it was an exaggerationJan 13 01:21
tessierWowJan 13 01:21
schestowitzOr fableJan 13 01:21
MinceRoiaohm: if they die of natural reasons then you didn't kill them.Jan 13 01:21
tessierHave you guys seen ?Jan 13 01:21
phIRCe-localTitle: Official Google Blog: A new approach to China .::. Size~: 83.95 KBJan 13 01:21
MinceRtessier: we're discussing it :)Jan 13 01:21
Chips_B_MalroyMarie AntionetteJan 13 01:21
tessierSome awesome cloak and dagger going on between China and Google.Jan 13 01:21
MinceReven if we're on a tangent alreadyJan 13 01:21
tessierah. Couldn't tell.Jan 13 01:21
oiaohmBasically you impresion them because you are too coward to kill them for disagreeing with you.  MinceRJan 13 01:21
tessierThought you were discussing baking or something. :)Jan 13 01:21
MinceRtessier: 013325 < MinceR> google is now doing the right thing about but for the wrong reason.Jan 13 01:21
oiaohmIts basically a way of avoiding fall out from doing wrong actions.  MinceRJan 13 01:22
MinceRoiaohm: locking up someone for life is not killing, it's taking their _freedom_Jan 13 01:22
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MinceRwhich is exactly what i'm talking aboutJan 13 01:22
MinceRthey survive but they no longer have control over their own lifeJan 13 01:22
Chips_B_Malroylife imprisionment can be worse than death in some placesJan 13 01:22
MinceRa life of slavery is roughly the same thingJan 13 01:23
oiaohmRemember even prisoners and slaves have managed to make differences to history and improve things.  MinceR.Jan 13 01:23
Chips_B_Malroynow if they give you cable tv, and free medical?Jan 13 01:23
Chips_B_MalroylolJan 13 01:23
MinceRoiaohm: but have oppressors managed to do so?Jan 13 01:23
oiaohmOf course not all MinceR.Jan 13 01:24
oiaohmoppressors always disappear in time.  MinceRJan 13 01:24
MinceRgoogle was never in the position of the prisoner or the slave.Jan 13 01:24
MinceRthey don't disappear on their ownJan 13 01:24
MinceRthey need to be overcomeJan 13 01:24
MinceReither by the people they're oppressing or external forcesJan 13 01:24
oiaohmsome are overcome quickly some are overcome slowly.Jan 13 01:24
MinceRor they make mistakes, but you can't count on thatJan 13 01:25
MinceRs/mis/fatal mis/Jan 13 01:25
schestowitz 13 01:26
schestowitzBut wait.Jan 13 01:26
phIRCe-localTitle: Google May Shut Down Operations In China| paidContent .::. Size~: 28.04 KBJan 13 01:26
schestowitzThe US does the same and the UK tooJan 13 01:26
schestowitzTo a degree........Jan 13 01:26
oiaohmOne of the best methods to defeat is Mohandas Karamchand Gandhi design.Jan 13 01:26
schestowitzSurveillance is not a Chinese problemJan 13 01:26
MinceRoiaohm: which is?Jan 13 01:26
oiaohmSome of the changes in china follow that design.Jan 13 01:26
schestowitzImprisonmentisJan 13 01:26
Diablo-D3 13 01:26
phIRCe-localTitle: Official Google Blog: A new approach to China .::. Size~: 83.95 KBJan 13 01:26
Diablo-D3is epic.Jan 13 01:26
oiaohmDon't use force.  Just don't work where the problems are by the local people.  So leading to change.Jan 13 01:27
MinceRoiaohm: whatJan 13 01:27
oiaohmPeople fail to see in the down turn recently.  There have been protests in china with no crushing force applied.Jan 13 01:28
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schestowitzDiablo-D3: maybe part of sanctions against ChinaJan 13 01:28
schestowitzACTA++Jan 13 01:28
oiaohmThings have changed MinceR.Jan 13 01:28
schestowitzThe West owes a lot of money to ChinaJan 13 01:28
schestowitzThey depend on tradeJan 13 01:28
tessieroppressors always disappear in time but not necessarily your lifetimeJan 13 01:28
tessierAnd I'm not sure even that is true.Jan 13 01:29
tessierLooking at the history of the world they tend to be replaced by other oppressors.Jan 13 01:29
MinceRwell said.Jan 13 01:29
tessierWho really had meaningful freedom before the advent of democracy these past few hundred years?Jan 13 01:29
MinceRrulersJan 13 01:29
tessierRight, just the guy on top. Which is practically nobody.Jan 13 01:29
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[davidgerard] twiddled grub to at least get windows partition booting. tomorrow: debian floppies and grub reinstall. >_< all software sucks.Jan 13 01:29
oiaohmReally look at most democacys moderday they don't run fare either.Jan 13 01:30
MinceRand it's still pretty much that wayJan 13 01:30
oiaohmfair eitehr.Jan 13 01:30
tessiernahJan 13 01:30
tessierWe have it far better off than pretty much any generation in the history of the world.Jan 13 01:30
oiaohmsome of the historic democaries worked.Jan 13 01:30
MinceRa few guys on the top are free, the rest aren'tJan 13 01:30
MinceRbut there are some minor improvementsJan 13 01:30
oiaohmLike the athens systems.  Ok women were not allowed to voiteJan 13 01:30
oiaohmSo not ideal.Jan 13 01:30
MinceRoiaohm: they also had slaves, didn't they?Jan 13 01:31
oiaohmBut everyone in the city had the right to decide on everything to be done.Jan 13 01:31
oiaohmSlaves were not Slaves for life.  MinceRJan 13 01:31
oiaohmThey did not have apprentences back then either.  MinceRJan 13 01:31
oiaohmIe person would be a Slave learn a skill and in time take over the business or start own.Jan 13 01:32
MinceRi'm no historian but i suspect that ancient greece was less rosy than it is usually pictured.Jan 13 01:32
oiaohmNo point in history is 100 percent rosy.Jan 13 01:32
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[davidgerard] - it's so true.Jan 13 01:33
phIRCe-localTitle: xkcd - A webcomic of romance, sarcasm, math, and language - By Randall Munroe .::. Size~: 8.15 KBJan 13 01:33
tessierLook at how long the ancient Greek lived.Jan 13 01:33
tessierThey lived hard and short lives.Jan 13 01:33
oiaohmLot of war.Jan 13 01:34
schestowitzAlexander the Great died before30 IIRCJan 13 01:34
MinceRhe was Macedonian, wasn't he? :>Jan 13 01:34
schestowitzWFT? BBC Maggie Shills... Ron Jeremy says violent video games 'worse' than porn 13 01:34
phIRCe-localTitle: BBC NEWS | News Front Page .::. Size~: 73.97 KBJan 13 01:34
oiaohmThe olpomics was about the only time you could be sure greece would be at peace in the ancient times.Jan 13 01:34
phIRCe-localTitle: BBC - dot.Maggie: 'I hate the net' - porn star Ron Jeremy .::. Size~: 105.98 KBJan 13 01:34
schestowitzMinceR: ysJan 13 01:34
schestowitz*yesJan 13 01:34
schestowitzBut borders were not the same back thenJan 13 01:35
schestowitzHungry-Austria...Jan 13 01:35
schestowitz*garyJan 13 01:35
MinceRi don't think Austria was ever hungry ;)Jan 13 01:35
schestowitzThey swallowed a neighbourJan 13 01:35
MinceRhungry for Hungary, perhapsJan 13 01:35
MinceRyeahJan 13 01:35
oiaohmEvery point in history us humans love to think of ourselves better than the past before us.Jan 13 01:35
MinceRthey did chew first, thoughJan 13 01:35
oiaohmEven if its not true.Jan 13 01:35
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[davidgerard] what bit me: hardy->karmic is grub->grub2. AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAJan 13 01:35
schestowitzMinceR: did you see then film I linked to 2 days ago?Jan 13 01:36
MinceRi didJan 13 01:36
MinceRit was a good filmJan 13 01:36
schestowitz 13 01:36
phIRCe-localTitle: YouTube- Cold War: After Stalin (1953-1956) Part 4 of 5 .::. Size~: 112.88 KBJan 13 01:36
oiaohmHeck so of the slaves of achinent times are better off than some of the workforces around the world today.Jan 13 01:37
MinceRthat film also shows how much Jesusland can really be trusted to "export" "democracy".Jan 13 01:37
MinceRthe events of 1956.Jan 13 01:37
oiaohmFor the simple reason if a slave was sick the owner was responsable to get it cured.Jan 13 01:37
schestowitz 13 01:37
phIRCe-localTitle: Group behind Twitter hack takes down Baidu search engine | Security Central - InfoWorld .::. Size~: 75.94 KBJan 13 01:37
schestowitzMaybe nothing will be left for China searchers thenJan 13 01:37
oiaohmThese days our equal to slaves get money and if what they have been doing harms them they are on there own.Jan 13 01:38
oiaohmSo much for a world that has moved forwards.Jan 13 01:39
MinceRi forgot to mention a sinister aspect of google collecting so much data on everyone: even if they don't ever decide to use it for evil ends, at least the usian government, but possibly other governments too can access it anyway and use it against people.Jan 13 01:45
Diablo-D3MinceR: think biggerJan 13 01:49
Diablo-D3google will become the world governmentJan 13 01:49
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MinceRor part of itJan 13 01:50
Diablo-D3no, it will be itJan 13 01:50
MinceRbut i can't really condemn publicly for what i think they will do, so i had to focus on what they've done and what they're doing alreadyJan 13 01:50
Diablo-D3and what they've done has largely been positiveJan 13 01:51
MinceRs/demn/& them/Jan 13 01:51
MinceRit's largely neutralJan 13 01:51
Diablo-D3its largely positive imoJan 13 01:51
Diablo-D3the internet would be utterely useless without their efforts imoJan 13 01:51
MinceRthere are some very evil bits and fewer good bitsJan 13 01:51
yuhongIf the Chinese government really is so desperate as to be hacking Google servers, it will say a lot about them:Jan 13 01:51
yuhong 13 01:51
phIRCe-localTitle: Official Google Blog: A new approach to China .::. Size~: 83.95 KBJan 13 01:51
MinceRand this is coming from a company who advertises them with the "do no evil" sloganJan 13 01:51
MinceRand i think that's unacceptableJan 13 01:52
Diablo-D3MinceR: theres very few truely evil bitsJan 13 01:52
Diablo-D3and even then, you have to ask who they did the evil toJan 13 01:52
MinceRthey've also recently lectured the chinese on freedom of speech, which given their history of cooperation with them on censorship, is richJan 13 01:52
Diablo-D3MinceR: wrongJan 13 01:52
Diablo-D3I actually will back google up hereJan 13 01:52
yuhongBut ff the Chinese government really is so desperate as to be hacking Google servers, it will say a lot about them:Jan 13 01:52
MinceRthen you'll be wrong along with themJan 13 01:52
MinceRalso, you're invited to read the discussion on this topic above.Jan 13 01:53
Diablo-D3google participated in china to further democracy in chinaJan 13 01:53
Diablo-D3if this means they had to participate in the great firewall of china, then so be itJan 13 01:53
MinceRi don't see how doing censorship for them is "furthering democracy"Jan 13 01:53
Diablo-D3the firewall is not google's evil, its china'sJan 13 01:53
MinceRmaybe it's the usian definition of "furthering democracy", which really means "extracting profits"Jan 13 01:53
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Diablo-D3google is now so important to the chinese people that if google starts giving the chinese government the finger, so will the chinese people follow suite.Jan 13 01:53
MinceRit's also google's if they take part in doing it, which they doJan 13 01:53
Diablo-D3MinceR: google does not care about profitsJan 13 01:54
Diablo-D3they seriously dontJan 13 01:54
yuhongYep, look at the IPO for a clue.Jan 13 01:54
MinceRand no, the internet would not be utterly useless without their effortsJan 13 01:54
MinceRthey weren't the only search serviceJan 13 01:54
MinceRand they still aren'tJan 13 01:54
Diablo-D3they're the only good oneJan 13 01:54
Diablo-D3now, I'd like google to open source their search engine and run it as a distributed systemJan 13 01:54
MinceRthat's even more wrong than your previous statementsJan 13 01:54
Diablo-D3but I dont see that happeningJan 13 01:54
Diablo-D3bing and yahoo are useless, MinceR Jan 13 01:55
Diablo-D3whos left?Jan 13 01:55
Diablo-D3there isnt anyone.Jan 13 01:55
MinceRthere are only tiny players leftJan 13 01:55
MinceRback when google appeared, this wasn't the caseJan 13 01:55
yuhongAnd the damage of the hacking is more than just money.Jan 13 01:55
Diablo-D3you dont hack googleJan 13 01:55
MinceRwere it not for google, there would be at least one other in their placeJan 13 01:55
Diablo-D3seriously, its a very bad ideaJan 13 01:55
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MinceRyeah, don't hack googleJan 13 01:55
MinceRbe the government and ask them for a favor.Jan 13 01:55
Jose_X 13 01:56
phIRCe-localTitle: Google to end China censorship after e-mail breach - Yahoo! Finance .::. Size~: 90.71 KBJan 13 01:56
yuhongAnd if the Chinese government really is so desperate as to be hacking Google servers, it will say a lot about them:Jan 13 01:56
MinceRit's more likely to succeed and a lot cheaper.Jan 13 01:56
Jose_X>> Google Inc. will stop censoring its search results in China and may pull out of the country completely after discovering that computers hackers had tricked human rights activists into opening their e-mail accounts to outsiders.Jan 13 01:56
Diablo-D3Jose_X: this is what we're talking aboutJan 13 01:56
Jose_XI see this is old newsJan 13 01:56
Jose_X:-)Jan 13 01:56
MinceRalso, read the privacy policy. :>Jan 13 01:56
Diablo-D3google pulling out china is part of their orchestrated effort to change chinaJan 13 01:56
MinceRstrangeJan 13 01:56
Diablo-D3they went in, became indepensible, then leftJan 13 01:56
MinceRhelping a totalitarian regime do censorship and stopping doing so is Good(tm) now?Jan 13 01:57
Diablo-D3MinceR: yes when the outcome is extremely useful.Jan 13 01:57
MinceRi guess i should go torture some innocent people, stop doing so and proclaim myself savior.Jan 13 01:57
Diablo-D3this will likely lead to more companies leaving chinaJan 13 01:57
yuhongAFRIK a big competitor to Google in China is Baidu.Jan 13 01:57
Diablo-D3china will be forced to changeJan 13 01:57
MinceRfat chance.Jan 13 01:57
Diablo-D3MinceR: why do that?Jan 13 01:58
Diablo-D3china changing is a good thingJan 13 01:58
MinceRDiablo-D3: it's the same patternJan 13 01:58
Diablo-D3if google can cause it to happen, I'd be a great thingJan 13 01:58
MinceR"doing Good(tm)" by doing evil and stoppingJan 13 01:58
MinceRit's nonsense.Jan 13 01:58
Diablo-D3MinceR: not at allJan 13 01:58
Diablo-D3you'd suck at chess, for example.Jan 13 01:58
MinceRevery human being sucks at chessJan 13 01:58
Diablo-D3google only needs one human who doesnt suck at chess.Jan 13 01:58
MinceRsupercomputers beat all of usJan 13 01:58
Diablo-D3google is, essentially, playing chessJan 13 01:59
Diablo-D3this whole thing was a feintJan 13 01:59
MinceRno they aren'tJan 13 01:59
yuhongBut if the Chinese government really is so desperate as to be hacking Google servers, it will say a lot about them:Jan 13 01:59
MinceRthey're "playing" business while saying they're Doing Good(tm)Jan 13 01:59
Diablo-D3they gave up a couple pawns for a chance to topple china's power piecesJan 13 01:59
Diablo-D3if they're successful, then they did goodJan 13 01:59
Diablo-D3if they're not, then they did neutral.Jan 13 01:59
Diablo-D3MinceR: its not the _what_ you did that matters, its the _why_.Jan 13 01:59
MinceRDiablo-D3: get real, they won't weaken the regime in china at allJan 13 02:00
MinceRthey just were on board for a ride for a whileJan 13 02:00
Diablo-D3I have to give points to google for trying, even if it doesnt work.Jan 13 02:00
Diablo-D3internally, the chinese government is a messJan 13 02:00
Diablo-D3its not a unified force to keep the people downJan 13 02:01
Diablo-D3its a sham built on decades of corruptionJan 13 02:01
Diablo-D3it may just take a strong enough breeze to topple it.Jan 13 02:01
MinceRand google going back and forth will topple that... not.Jan 13 02:01
Jose_Xi think this adds pressure. china depends on world for economic prosperityJan 13 02:01
Diablo-D3google became an important brick for that sham.... and then was suddenly gone.Jan 13 02:01
Diablo-D3MinceR: ever play jenga?Jan 13 02:01
Diablo-D3same thing.Jan 13 02:01
MinceRthey never were an important brick. ever heard of Baidu?Jan 13 02:02
Jose_Xif they can't handle google, it will speak badly for them Jan 13 02:02
yuhongYea, I just mention it.Jan 13 02:02
Diablo-D3no one on the outside world has heard of baiduJan 13 02:02
MinceRno one needs toJan 13 02:02
yuhongYea, I mentioned it.Jan 13 02:02
Jose_Xgoogle is a huge brandJan 13 02:02
MinceRit's used inside china, which is what we're discussingJan 13 02:02
Diablo-D3if you're not a global leader in your field, you're no one.Jan 13 02:02
yuhongYep.Jan 13 02:02
Jose_Xthe key point is google not being able to do business thereJan 13 02:02
MinceRnot in a closed environment like the PRC.Jan 13 02:02
Jose_Xbaidu can do search but they don't buy cars or trinketsJan 13 02:02
MinceRif local brands are big in there, that's all that matters.Jan 13 02:03
Diablo-D3Having Google leave your country will have large reaching effects to your internal economyJan 13 02:03
Diablo-D3Especially if others followJan 13 02:03
Diablo-D3No one will want to be left holding the bagJan 13 02:03
Jose_Xit's not about Chinese having access to search or notJan 13 02:03
Diablo-D3Google is _extremely_ good at these kind of gamesJan 13 02:03
Diablo-D3You cant play against Google and winJan 13 02:04
MinceRwhen did they pull such a game off successfully?Jan 13 02:04
Jose_Xit's about China needing to play by certain norms or else they pay a price economicallyJan 13 02:04
Diablo-D3MinceR: they toppled the yahoo empireJan 13 02:04
Diablo-D3they toppled the hotmail empireJan 13 02:04
Jose_Xgoogle is simply adding to the evidenceJan 13 02:04
Diablo-D3they toppled empires that didnt even exist yetJan 13 02:04
yuhongI still use Hotmail, in case you didn't notice.Jan 13 02:04
MinceRyou can't topple an empire that didn't exist yetJan 13 02:04
Jose_Xit's not a small person here or there but a huge multinationalJan 13 02:04
yuhongBut, Yahoo, yes I know.Jan 13 02:05
Diablo-D3MinceR: you actually canJan 13 02:05
MinceRmuch less can you take credit for itJan 13 02:05
MinceRand yahoo never had the right idea to begin withJan 13 02:05
Diablo-D3news reading didnt really take off until google reader, for exampleJan 13 02:05
MinceRthey kept trying to be a portalJan 13 02:05
MinceRthey didn't know what they wanted to do (and they still don't know)Jan 13 02:05
Diablo-D3Google knew what they had to do, and they did it better, faster, and cheaper (ie, free).Jan 13 02:05
yuhongAnd one of the better huge multinationals.Jan 13 02:06
Diablo-D3And now, we have Google Global Politics.Jan 13 02:06
MinceRi'm not sure about hotmail, after all it's just webmail, an inferior alternative to IMAP.Jan 13 02:06
MinceRand google reader is just an inferior alternative to a real feed reader.Jan 13 02:06
Jose_Xgoogle sets an example that other companies that support freedom will be pressured to followJan 13 02:06
Diablo-D3The next step on Google's agenda.Jan 13 02:06
Diablo-D3Jose_X: I said thisJan 13 02:06
Jose_X.. to some degreeJan 13 02:06
Diablo-D3MinceR disagreesJan 13 02:06
Jose_Xyes about companies following googleJan 13 02:06
MinceRwhat google does is hardly "supporting freedom"Jan 13 02:06
Diablo-D3Google supports Net Neutrality, for example.Jan 13 02:07
Jose_Xboycotting?Jan 13 02:07
Jose_XMinceRJan 13 02:07
Diablo-D3MinceR: as I said earlier, Google entering China was a feintJan 13 02:07
Jose_X>> "Google has taken a bold and difficult step for Internet freedom in support of fundamental human rights," said Leslie Harris, president of the Center for Democracy & Technology, a civil-liberties group in Washington. "No company should be forced to operate under government threat to its core values or to the rights and safety of its users."Jan 13 02:07
Diablo-D3They entered China fully knowing they would pull out a year laterJan 13 02:07
MinceRJose_X: can't reallyJan 13 02:08
Diablo-D3It was all part of their plan to light a fire under China's assJan 13 02:08
yuhongReally?Jan 13 02:08
MinceRJose_X: their competitors in web search have either died or are just as bad as them (bingo)Jan 13 02:08
MinceRor are really tinyJan 13 02:08
MinceR(and can hardly keep up)Jan 13 02:08
yuhongYep, I know.Jan 13 02:08
MinceRi wanted to switch to local metasearch, but didn't have the time to give it a try yet.Jan 13 02:09
Jose_Xwell, depending on what follows, google's brand can really gain from thisJan 13 02:09
MinceRwell, i've tried one app but it wasn't goodJan 13 02:09
MinceRgoogle supports net neutrality because it's advantageous to themJan 13 02:10
MinceRwhich is, of course, fortunateJan 13 02:10
MinceRbut not necessarily proof that they're doing it for goodJan 13 02:10
Jose_XMinceR, google is the top search+X brand internationally (or narrow it down to the US). this creates pressure for others to follow and "do the right thing"Jan 13 02:11
MinceRdoes "do the right thing" include "hoard information about everyone that governments can ask from you"?Jan 13 02:11
Jose_Xchina, though independent in many ways, would be pressured to adjust policyJan 13 02:11
MinceRdoes it include "help out with censorship as long as it's profitable"?Jan 13 02:11
MinceRthey've never adjusted policy to anything, have they?Jan 13 02:12
Jose_XEveryone in that business has to reveal information, though google does capture quite a bitJan 13 02:12
MinceRthey can exert pressure, so they do thatJan 13 02:12
Jose_Xmicrosoft has access to everything done by you if you use Windows.. EverythingJan 13 02:12
MinceRsometimes they play a little game to deceive outsidersJan 13 02:12
MinceRm$ is a lot worse than google, but that doesn't make google goodJan 13 02:12
Jose_XEvery url and page that google knows about first went through Microsoft's grip if Windows was usedJan 13 02:13
Jose_XHow many other companies (eg, in search) have done this in China?Jan 13 02:14
MinceR"this" being?Jan 13 02:14
Jose_XI'm sure if Google is not profitable, neither would many othersJan 13 02:14
Jose_Xstate they are pulling out for ... let me quote them again: "Google has taken a bold and difficult step for Internet freedom in support of fundamental human rights," said Leslie Harris, president of the Center for Democracy & Technology, a civil-liberties group in Washington. "No company should be forced to operate under government threat to its core values or to the rights and safety of its users."Jan 13 02:15
Jose_Xactually Leslie Harris is the one quotedJan 13 02:15
DaemonFC 13 02:15
phIRCe-localTitle:    French 3 Strikes Group Unveils Copyright Infringing Logo | TorrentFreak   .::. Size~: 62.4 KBJan 13 02:15
MinceRwhat did he say this about, helping the PRC out with censorship or pulling out of it?Jan 13 02:16
MinceRironic, just like the b$a incident in hungaryJan 13 02:17
MinceRreferring to the hadopi linkJan 13 02:17
MinceR(in one of its ad/racket campaigns, b$a reproduced text from a hungarian law database including interpretations, the latter being owned by a hungarian company, without properly licensing it)Jan 13 02:19
yuhongJose_X: MS's software grip, do you mean?Jan 13 02:20
Jose_Xyuhong, what do you mean?Jan 13 02:21
Jose_Xhadopi link was greatJan 13 02:21
yuhongIs it really that MS would get access or it's software?Jan 13 02:21
yuhongIs it really that MS would get access or do you mean it's software?Jan 13 02:22
Jose_X:-)Jan 13 02:22
MinceRJose_X: what did Leslie Harris say this about, helping the PRC out with censorship or pulling out of it?Jan 13 02:22
DaemonFC 13 02:22
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yuhongI hasn't seen much evidence to suggest the former.Jan 13 02:22
yuhongI have no doubt that MS is much worse than Google, but...Jan 13 02:22
Jose_XMinceR, are you quizing me or do you want to know.. i quoted from the link I gave earlier. i didn't know much about this until minutes agoJan 13 02:22
MinceRi want to knowJan 13 02:23
DaemonFCI should really buy a Rapidshare accountJan 13 02:23
MinceRbut i'll take another look at the article thenJan 13 02:23
DaemonFCI use it about often enoughJan 13 02:23
Jose_Xyuhong, msware is swiss cheese and the ones with the keys work in Redmond. you talk to them.Jan 13 02:23
Jose_Xi don't trust them.Jan 13 02:23
Jose_X.Jan 13 02:23
Jose_XperiodJan 13 02:23
MinceRJose_X: i just assumed your link pointed to the same google blog post or a copy of it.Jan 13 02:23
Jose_Xap storyJan 13 02:24
MinceRnow that i know the context, i can say that i don't agree with Leslie HarrisJan 13 02:24
yuhongJose_X: What do you mean by "swiss cheese"Jan 13 02:24
MinceRstopping collaboration with a government after being attacked by that government isn't necessarily a "step for Internet freedom in support of fundamental human rights"Jan 13 02:24
Jose_Xvulnerabilities exploitable by source out in the cloudJan 13 02:25
MinceRlet's not ascribe to altruism what can be ascribed to self-interest.Jan 13 02:25
yuhongJose_X: Really?Jan 13 02:25
yuhongJose_X: I have no doubt that MS is much worse than Google, but...Jan 13 02:25
Jose_XMinceR, i'm not here to make an angel out of googleJan 13 02:25
Jose_Xbut i like what just happenedJan 13 02:25
yuhongJose_X: Google is indeed not perfect.Jan 13 02:26
Jose_Xgoogle could have reacted differentlyJan 13 02:26
oiaohmIts very rare that people don't act for the own self interest.  MinceRJan 13 02:26
MinceRi like it too, but i don't think it makes google less sinister.Jan 13 02:26
yuhongGoogle is indeed not perfect, but MS is much worse.Jan 13 02:26
Jose_Xif they are being attacked by the gov, it means they weren't revealing something to the govJan 13 02:26
MinceRperhaps the government didn't ask.Jan 13 02:26
MinceRthey might well be a bunch of idiots.Jan 13 02:26
oiaohmGoogle alway refused access to contents of accounts MinceRJan 13 02:27
MinceR(iirc the privacy policy says they'll respond to inquiries from authorities liberally)Jan 13 02:27
oiaohmAnd china was caught cracking into them.Jan 13 02:27
yuhongYep, do you know what Yahoo did when they were requested by the Chinese government?Jan 13 02:27
Jose_Xthis may turn out to be not much.. we'll have to see what happens nextJan 13 02:27
yuhongAnd if the Chinese government really is so desperate as to be hacking Google servers, it will say a lot about them.Jan 13 02:28
Jose_Xis it clear that the gov truly is behind the attacks?Jan 13 02:28
yuhongNot yet, but...Jan 13 02:28
oiaohmIf a valid request for information can be presented MinceR.  In accondance with were the data is stored.  MinceRJan 13 02:28
oiaohmYes read it carefully.  MinceR.Jan 13 02:28
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MinceR 13 02:30
phIRCe-localTitle: Privacy Policy – Google Privacy Center .::. Size~: 16.5 KBJan 13 02:30
MinceR"Google only shares personal information with other companies or individuals outside of Google in the following limited circumstances:"...Jan 13 02:30
MinceR"We have a good faith belief that access, use, preservation or disclosure of such information is reasonably necessary to (a) satisfy any applicable law, regulation, legal process or enforceable governmental request, (b) enforce applicable Terms of Service, including investigation of potential violations thereof, (c) detect, prevent, or otherwise address fraud, security or technical issues, or (d) protect against harm to the rights, property or Jan 13 02:30
MinceRthis includes both a blanket statement regarding governmental requests and in general.Jan 13 02:30
MinceRit might be common practice and it might be in good faith, but i still consider this privacy policy useless.Jan 13 02:31
Jose_Xyuhong left, but i'll say this for the log..Jan 13 02:31
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MinceRthis kind of language can be twisted to justify revealing private data to anybody.Jan 13 02:32
DaemonFCWoohoo, jackpot!Jan 13 02:32
DaemonFC:DJan 13 02:32
Jose_Xsoftware as extensive and capable as is an OS can easily find a way to download some code (perhaps prompted from outside)Jan 13 02:32
DaemonFCI just found what I was looking for after 3 years of searchingJan 13 02:32
MinceRDaemonFC: ?Jan 13 02:32
Jose_Xuse that code to do a few things, including sending out some encrypted information.Jan 13 02:32
Jose_Xand then delete itself.Jan 13 02:32
DaemonFCMinceR: Some FLAC albums that I was looking for that aren't posted anywhereJan 13 02:33
MinceRicJan 13 02:33
Jose_Xit would be almost impossible to catch this unless you were somehow recording the entire state of the hardware at all times and had time to go back and analyze itJan 13 02:33
DaemonFCI found one of them, but whoever ripped it had a bad disc driveJan 13 02:33
DaemonFCwas cutting out and skipping and scratchingJan 13 02:33
DaemonFCRapidshare is not my preferred place to download, cause of the waitJan 13 02:34
DaemonFCbut I'll bookmark the link and keep grabbing chunks of it if needs beJan 13 02:34
MinceRJose_X: windows doesn't really need to try hard to find such a way -- windows update can be made to do this and iirc m$ has given themselves a blanket allowance to do this sort of thing with relation to DRM in any case, independently of windows updateJan 13 02:35
Jose_Xperseverance pays off!Jan 13 02:35
MinceRthey can download any code to a winblows machine and run it and justify it via the EULA.Jan 13 02:35
Jose_Xyes, there is a formal set of loopholes to allow this sort of encrypted conversationJan 13 02:35
MinceRthis is part of why nobody should use winblows, for their own goodJan 13 02:35
Jose_Xthe delete code part and prompt by external agent was thrown in to show the barriers that can exist even if you try to reverse parts of the code as it exists in memory for exampleJan 13 02:36
MinceRand now it's really late so it's time for me to go. we should have started this conversation much earlier. :)Jan 13 02:36
MinceRgnJan 13 02:36
oiaohmapplicable is the key word MinceRJan 13 02:36
Jose_XgnJan 13 02:37
MinceRoiaohm: "applicable" only applies to "law"Jan 13 02:37
MinceRand they can have a "good faith belief" that some particular article of "law" was "applicable" even if there was no "governmental request"Jan 13 02:37
MinceRetc.Jan 13 02:37
Jose_Xi'll be leaving soon as well (the gn was to MinceR.. I'm not "hip" with chatting so forgive me if I sound confusing at times)Jan 13 02:37
oiaohmWay that is writen legally it applicable can be taken as applying to the complete list MinceR.Jan 13 02:38
oiaohmie law regulation legal process...Jan 13 02:38
oiaohmThat is by legal documentation written conversions  MinceR.Jan 13 02:38
Jose_XMinceR, I essentially don't trust privacy policies as most have many loopholes because of their lack of specificityJan 13 02:38
oiaohmthe most libriaral interpt has to be accept.Jan 13 02:38
Jose_Xprecision, etc.Jan 13 02:38
MinceRoiaohm: also consider "We have a good faith belief that access, use, preservation or disclosure of such information is reasonably necessary to [...] protect against harm to the [...] property [...] of Google", etc.Jan 13 02:39
MinceRremember that "property" can also mean "money"Jan 13 02:39
MinceRremember that "lost profit" is lost "money"Jan 13 02:40
oiaohmSome are there to protect servers from DDOS and the like MinceRJan 13 02:40
oiaohmYou should try writing a valid one that keeps you on the right side of the law and enabled to protect you hardware.Jan 13 02:41
oiaohmIts not simple.Jan 13 02:41
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Jose_Xlater, people.. i'm goingJan 13 02:43
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DaemonFCMinceR: You didn't pay me $1,000, therefore I lost $1,000 because you stole it for meJan 13 03:30
DaemonFCthat's the RIAA's twisted logicJan 13 03:30
DaemonFCMicrosoft's tooJan 13 03:30
DaemonFC*fromJan 13 03:31
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-BNc/#boycottnovell-[anivar] On the way to #wikiwarsJan 13 04:02
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matrixhelloJan 13 04:42
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phIRCe-localTitle: 'Iran will find assassins who killed nuclear scientist'  .::. Size~: 39.69 KBJan 13 04:48
DaemonFC"The Iranian Foreign Ministry said on Tuesday that Iran has found traces of US and Israeli involvement in the assassination of Massoud Ali-Mohammadi."Jan 13 04:48
DaemonFCTranslation: "We have no idea who did it, would prefer not to admit it was an internal problem, and so we'll blame the US and Israel"Jan 13 04:48
DaemonFCThey totally discount how many of their own people hate their government.Jan 13 04:49
DaemonFCbut dictatorships usually doJan 13 04:49
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phIRCe-localTitle: Bushisms - Funny George Bush Quotes Updated Frequently .::. Size~: 44.44 KBJan 13 04:54
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[omar_s_hafez] @schestowitz yeah, man. I saw that. Thanks. :-)Jan 13 05:04
DaemonFCI don't really know how many people see the irony in using a Microsoft antivirus program, from the same company that leaves vulnerabilities unpatched for 10 years and 4 versions of WindowsJan 13 05:10
DaemonFC(and probably longer than that, but since Windows NT 4 is unsupported, we'll never know)Jan 13 05:11
DaemonFCI do know there have been bugs affecting Vista, XP, and 2000 that Microsoft refused to fix in NT 4 even though they were confirmed there tooJan 13 05:12
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[anivar] RT @thewikipedian: I've heard of "greenwashing" & more recently, "localwashing" but @sunil_abraham offers a new one: "openwashing" #wikiwarsJan 13 05:33
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[anivar] RT @hfordsa: 'Wikipedia is an active site of resistance' talking about CriticalPOV rather than NeutralPOV Nupoor Rawal & Srikiet #wikiwarsJan 13 05:49
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[anivar] RT @wirefire: how often does Indian law refer to wikipedia? Shocking #wikiwarsJan 13 06:07
cubezzzdon't use NTJan 13 06:14
cubezzzalso don't use doze :)Jan 13 06:14
DaemonFCcubezzz: This might sound a bit n00bishJan 13 06:23
DaemonFCDo you know of any decent shelf systems that support Vorbis?Jan 13 06:23
DaemonFCor maybe just one that I can dock my Sansa on and charge it, hook it up through an auxiliary cable?Jan 13 06:24
cubezzzummm yes but it's bit expensiveJan 13 06:25
cubezzzSonos Z120 Zone Player Shelf SystemJan 13 06:25
DaemonFCcome to think of it, how do those damned things work? I see them advertising a hypePod dockJan 13 06:25
cubezzzI'm not really recommending it, but it does what you wantJan 13 06:25
DaemonFCwhy are you not recommending it?Jan 13 06:25
cubezzzI have no first hand experience with itJan 13 06:25
DaemonFCand it's $500Jan 13 06:26
DaemonFC:)Jan 13 06:26
cubezzzyesJan 13 06:26
cubezzzI have a recent set of Sony headphones and several computersJan 13 06:26
DaemonFCif you've got an ipod, everyone makes a shelf system that can dock with itJan 13 06:26
cubezzzthat with mplayer covers my music wantsJan 13 06:26
DaemonFCyou even see them at the dollar storesJan 13 06:27
cubezzzrecent + decentJan 13 06:27
cubezzzI work with an audio engineer so I know a bit about audio stuffJan 13 06:27
DaemonFCIt's funny that dollar stores sell shelf systems with an ipod dockJan 13 06:27
DaemonFCmaybe that's cause after the $299 ipod, it's all you can affordJan 13 06:28
cubezzzI wouldn't buy anything from a dollar storeJan 13 06:28
cubezzzunless one doesn't care at all about qualityJan 13 06:28
DaemonFCI don't know why the damned touchscreen is on the new modelsJan 13 06:28
DaemonFCclick wheel works fine and is far less expensiveJan 13 06:29
DaemonFCmaybe they figured it was becoming too easy to make a PMP that had as many features or more than their ipodJan 13 06:29
DaemonFChell, there's ipod knock offs on ebay that look pretty much the same for 1/10th the priceJan 13 06:30
DaemonFCI think a lot of the kids you see walking around with ipods really have a Chinese knock-offJan 13 06:30
DaemonFCI wouldn't let my kid run around with a $300 deviceJan 13 06:30
DaemonFCyou know how kids are, someone at school steals the fucking thing and the school takes the side of the kid who stole itJan 13 06:31
cubezzzif I travel with anything small and valuable I keep it in an insider zippered pocketJan 13 06:32
DaemonFCNot me, a kid tried to steal my gloves once on the school bus and I kicked his assJan 13 06:32
cubezzzalso I never listen to music/radio while walking aroundJan 13 06:32
DaemonFCthe school said I had to apologize to him, so I said "I'm sorry....that I didn't blacken your other eye to match"Jan 13 06:33
DaemonFCgot detention for another week just cause of thatJan 13 06:33
DaemonFCI'm not apologizing that someone tried to steal my things and got his ass kickedJan 13 06:34
DaemonFCschools are insaneJan 13 06:34
cubezzzno ipods in my days at schoolJan 13 06:34
DaemonFCthe point though is who really lets their kids run around at school with that?Jan 13 06:35
cubezzzno laptops I can remember either Jan 13 06:35
DaemonFCWe had portable CD players I think, maybeJan 13 06:35
cubezzzwell, it's a high risk itemJan 13 06:35
DaemonFCI think I was in the 2nd grade that yearJan 13 06:35
cubezzzno, I think a couple of folks might have had Sony Walkmans :)Jan 13 06:35
DaemonFCso maybe 1992 or early 1993Jan 13 06:36
cubezzzbut I can't remember seeing them in High SchoolJan 13 06:36
cubezzzI can remember 45's in department stores :)Jan 13 06:36
DaemonFCoh yeah, I remember a portable CD player being the thing to haveJan 13 06:36
DaemonFCeveryone had to have one, they were all kinds of expensiveJan 13 06:36
cubezzzthe jukeboxes of that eraJan 13 06:36
cubezzzthe main status symbol when I was in HS was high-cut leather nikesJan 13 06:37
DaemonFCwell, why would anyone want one now when you can carry 400 CDs worth of music on something that weighs 3 ounces?Jan 13 06:37
DaemonFC:)Jan 13 06:37
DaemonFCthe CD is a dying thingJan 13 06:37
cubezzzyes, CD's are passeJan 13 06:38
DaemonFCthat's a bad thing too, for people who like free softwareJan 13 06:38
DaemonFCFLAC files come from people that had the CDJan 13 06:38
DaemonFCyou can turn FLAC files into anything you wantJan 13 06:38
cubezzzwell, you can still buy CDsJan 13 06:38
DaemonFCAmazon sells MP3s and decides how they are encodedJan 13 06:39
cubezzzmaybe some music stores have FLAC tooJan 13 06:39
DaemonFCApple's worse, they sell AAC which is even more heavily patentedJan 13 06:39
DaemonFCeither way you turn into a criminal for listening to music you bought on free softwareJan 13 06:39
cubezzznoJan 13 06:40
cubezzznot in Canada you don'tJan 13 06:40
cubezzzno DMCA rememberJan 13 06:41
DaemonFCyetJan 13 06:41
DaemonFCI'm still not convinced you won't get oneJan 13 06:41
DaemonFCcubezzz: Personally I don't care about the DMCA, at allJan 13 06:41
cubezzzwe already pay a tax on blank mediaJan 13 06:42
DaemonFCI rip DVDs, I have plenty of music I didn't pay forJan 13 06:42
DaemonFCI won't pay for it until the RIAA stops suing peopleJan 13 06:42
cubezzzit's fine to rip DVDs, as long as you buy the originalsJan 13 06:42
cubezzzI have no problem with rippingJan 13 06:43
cubezzzI even help content producers directlyJan 13 06:43
DaemonFCI haven't spent ant money on music since they shut down NapsterJan 13 06:44
DaemonFC*anyJan 13 06:44
cubezzzI buy music cards, there are everywhere nowJan 13 06:44
DaemonFCThat has to have been at least 10 yearsJan 13 06:45
DaemonFCI probably would have 500 CDs I paid them for if not for thatJan 13 06:45
DaemonFCtheir lossJan 13 06:45
cubezzzif I'm looking for a copy of something broadcasted by CBC, BBC, CBC, ABC, NBC etc from the 60's or 70's I'll use a torrent because there's usually no other way to get itJan 13 06:45
amarsh04cubezzz, do you remember the command to give the uuid of a partition?Jan 13 06:46
cubezzzfdisk I guessJan 13 06:47
cubezzz/sbin/fdisk /dev/sdb Jan 13 06:48
DaemonFCI ran over my cat with this chair earlierJan 13 06:48
DaemonFClooks like it took some furJan 13 06:48
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[thistleweb] An ' in Mrs to become Mr's (as in "property of Mr") explains a lot about MAN made traditions from male-centric religious institutionsJan 13 06:48
cubezzzsorry no I think you want "tune2fs -l /dev/sda2"Jan 13 06:50
cubezzzor whatever device it isJan 13 06:50
amarsh04cubezz, I think it's blkidJan 13 06:50
amarsh04confirmed, it isJan 13 06:51
cubezzzuhh ok :)Jan 13 06:51
cubezzztune2fs will also give the uuid Jan 13 06:53
amarsh04ok, but neither include "uuid" in the summary that man -k usesJan 13 06:53
cubezzzdidn't even know about blkidJan 13 06:54
cubezzzyes, it's not returned by man -k, I wonder why that isJan 13 06:55
cubezzznot in the whatis database I supposeJan 13 06:57
amarsh04whoever wrote the man page thought the description "command-line utility to locate/print block device attr" was most importantJan 13 06:57
cubezzzI have this:Jan 13 06:59
cubezzz Jan 13 06:59
phIRCe-localTitle: Not a web page! Aborting text/plain type .::. Size~: 0 KBJan 13 06:59
amarsh04I'll file a bug report against the packageJan 13 06:59
cubezzzanything useful I just pop in thereJan 13 06:59
cubezzzsince the Unix System V days :)Jan 13 06:59
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cubezzzno way I can remember all the command line stuff from memoryJan 13 07:01
cubezzzquite often programmers don't write good docsJan 13 07:02
cubezzzthey'll write bare bones docs that they can understandJan 13 07:03
cubezzzthen, a decade later, no one understand it :)Jan 13 07:03
DaemonFC*nix is just the best out of a bad lotJan 13 07:11
DaemonFCthe fact a Linux distribution could possibly look good reflects more on WindowsJan 13 07:12
DaemonFCpeople who say Linux is excellent are more or less comparing it with what else they knowJan 13 07:13
DaemonFCWindows has a lot of things going against it, of which are mostly self-inflicted by MicrosoftJan 13 07:13
DaemonFCDRM, Product Activation, 20 bajillion piece of malwareJan 13 07:14
DaemonFCWhere I run into problems with Linux, it's usually because that distribution does not have what I need in the repository, then what the hell do you do?Jan 13 07:15
DaemonFC 13 07:16
phIRCe-localTitle: Farsight - AMSN .::. Size~: 17.39 KBJan 13 07:16
DaemonFCsomething like thatJan 13 07:16
DaemonFCsweet jesus that looks fun, doesn't it? No?Jan 13 07:16
DaemonFCthen along the way, something will have changed in the last 6 months and those instructions don't wok anymore and the compiler starts throwing all kind of bizarre complaintsJan 13 07:17
DaemonFC*workJan 13 07:17
DaemonFCI hate every OS to some extent because they all fail at some pointJan 13 07:18
DaemonFCwhen the user has to grab a compiler, the OS has failedJan 13 07:18
DaemonFCperiod, end of discussionJan 13 07:18
DaemonFCthe project says "Linux for human beings", but I doubt I can show people how to use it when it even throws me sometimesJan 13 07:19
DaemonFC(<unknown>:726): GLib-GObject-CRITICAL **: g_type_class_unref: assertion `g_class != NULL' failedJan 13 07:20
DaemonFCFarsight Prepare error : Error while creating new session (1): Could not create GstRtpBinJan 13 07:20
DaemonFC"What does that mean?"Jan 13 07:20
DaemonFCMe: "I'll be dipped in dog shit if I know!"Jan 13 07:21
DaemonFCusers shouldn't have to go through this to get simple basic functionality they should have in under 3 minutes Jan 13 07:22
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phIRCe-localTitle: Tegra 2 supports Ubuntu Linux « sola's blog .::. Size~: 13.32 KBJan 13 07:22
DaemonFCmaybe if Virtual Box ever gets any better, I can just call up Windows whenever I need itJan 13 07:23
DaemonFCright now the USB to guest support is laughableJan 13 07:23
Diablo-D3thats not news.Jan 13 07:23
DaemonFCright now is can detect truly anything, probably even USB dildosJan 13 07:24
DaemonFCbut no webcams at allJan 13 07:24
DaemonFCbut it shouldn't even have to get there because *something* should just work on Linux without requiring me to sign up for Google Talk and still not being able to video chat with Windows usersJan 13 07:25
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-BNc/#boycottnovell-[thistleweb] RD: @nixcraft: Securely Encrypt Removable Media with Ubuntu 13 07:42
phIRCe-localTitle: Securely Encrypt Removable Media with Ubuntu .::. Size~: 43 KBJan 13 07:42
Diablo-D3 13 07:43
phIRCe-localTitle: Google FeedBurner .::. Size~: 11.14 KBJan 13 07:43
Diablo-D3so, uhJan 13 07:43
Diablo-D3nice knowing you chinaJan 13 07:43
cubezzzhere's hoping 1984 doesn't become trueJan 13 07:44
DaemonFCcubezzz: According to Wikipedia it did.Jan 13 07:45
DaemonFC1984 (MCMLXXXIV) was a leap year starting on Sunday in accordance with the Gregorian calendar.Jan 13 07:45
DaemonFCit's a conspiracyJan 13 07:45
cubezzzOrwell was a pessimistJan 13 07:47
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[anivar] RT @houshuang: #wikiwars Nishant: Uncyclopedia shows - not a crisis of leisure time. But they don't choose to spend their time on what "we wJan 13 07:52
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[anivar] RT @houshuang #wikiwars Maybe Wikipedia needs an "exit interview" to find why people leave. Sometimes intentional, sometimes just fades awayJan 13 07:58
-BNi/#boycottnovell-[diablod3/@diablod3] #Obama nickles and dimes the banking industry, fuck yeah 13 07:58
phIRCe-localTitle: Wall Street Bankers Face Potential White House Fees - ABC News .::. Size~: 67.4 KBJan 13 07:58
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[anivar] RT @staeiou: @thewikipedian Yes! Uncyclopedia is a sanctioned parody, while Encyclopedia Dramatica is a true resistive space. #wikiwarsJan 13 07:59
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-BNc/#boycottnovell-[anivar] RT @gkjohn: RT @shefaly: Blogged: Google's China Game (My opinion on 'what happened'): 13 09:09
phIRCe-localTitle: Googles China Game .::. Size~: 33.57 KBJan 13 09:09
-christel-[Global Notice] Hi all, We are now in the final stages of preparing the change over from hyperion to ircd-seven, we would encourage users and projects to read and familiarise yourselves with upcoming migration plans, we also suggest making sure that your bots and scripts work with the new ircd. Thank you and have a good day!Jan 13 09:10
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-BNc/#boycottnovell-[anivar] #wikiwars post lunch session: "wikipedia and critique of western knowledge production" startedJan 13 09:13
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[anivar] RT @tinucherian: Podcast on #wikiwars by @sidin Livemint #Audio #mp3Jan 13 09:15
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-BNi/#boycottnovell-[diablod3/@diablod3] Finally watched #KamenRider Decade All Riders vs Dai-Shocker... that was epic. But, do we ever find out who Narutaki really is? !miotdJan 13 09:18
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[anivar] #wikiwars eric zimmerman on "wikipedia and current research information system" raising questions on anonimity in learning systemsJan 13 09:21
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[anivar] Yes. Look at wikileaks RT @MadanRao: Eric Zimmerman: Can anonymity lead to trust, especially in learning environments? #WikiWarsJan 13 09:23
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[zoobab] New Zealand pushing for software patents with a "technical effect", every software changes the hardware, so patentable: 13 09:26
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[anivar] RT @Info_Activism: Google responds 2 internet security concerns in China threatening 2 pull out, gmail of HR advocates 13 09:33
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[anivar] RT @gkjohn: Two words: Mission Creep RT @privacyint: India wants micro-payment platform on top of UID 13 09:33
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[anivar] Johanna niesyto's session on "wikipedia as a translingual space" startsJan 13 09:36
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[anivar] RT @tinucherian: @wirefire @MadanRao personal observation: Indians prefer own names as usrname, west perfer pseudo names for privacy reasonsJan 13 09:36
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[anivar] #wikiwars Johanna niesyto's session on "wikipedia as a translingual space" startsJan 13 09:38
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[anivar] RT @houshuang: #wikiwars Niesyto: List of 1000 articles that every WP should have. Too Western. "Edit each other's biases out of the list"Jan 13 09:40
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[anivar] #wikiwars in my observation there are far more issues indic language wps, from standards, unicode etc to caste based notions of knowledgeJan 13 09:53
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[anivar] #wikiwars @houshuang's session started. "equitable governance in multilingual wikipedia" .. Interesting beginingJan 13 09:57
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[anivar] RT @MadanRao: Stian, Norway: Are all the language Wikis translations of each other at a deep level, or different worldviews? #WikiWarsJan 13 09:58
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-BNc/#boycottnovell-[anivar] RT @techdirt: Google Considers Leaving China If China Will Not Allow Uncensored Search 13 10:04
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[anivar] RT @privacyint FT: Google tries 2 assure 'this was not an assault on cloud computing',&'we believe our customr cloudbased data remain secureJan 13 10:06
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[anivar] RT @Srikeit: Live session pics of @houshuang's talk on day 2 of #wikiwars: 13 10:08
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[anivar] RT @wirefire: You cannot skim/scan or read quickly in a language that is not your own - Stian Haklev #wikiwarsJan 13 10:08
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[anivar] True. Sides and concerns are very clear now RT @koolhead17: @anivar the game has just begun lets see the future of it. #cloudJan 13 10:12
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[anivar] #wikiwars HanTeng Liao: session on "user generated encyclopedia as critical case of keyword economy"Jan 13 10:17
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[anivar] RT @thewikipedian: Yesterday @houshuang threatened to start his preso in a language besides English, and he just delivered. #wikiwarsJan 13 10:21
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[anivar] RT @MadanRao: Discussion on Citizendium: Wiki with stricter editing rules and obligatory disclosure of editor's real... www.citizendium.orgJan 13 10:51
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[anivar] RT @sunil_abraham: Bob Horovitz on Opening India's Spectrum, tmw @ 18:00, at CIS. #Wikiwars participants are very welcome!Jan 13 10:52
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[zoobab] Submit your paper for the Knowright2010 conference, deadline at the end of the month, FFII supporting the conference: 13 10:59
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-BNc/#boycottnovell-[anivar] WTF panel discussion : Wikipedia and Art . ppl include scott kildall & anne goldenberg from controvercial wikipedia art teamJan 13 11:23
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[anivar] RT @thewikipedian: Wikipedia Art masterminds S. Kildall and N. Stern up next at #wikiwars; my commentary from May here: 13 11:24
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[anivar] RT @houshuang: #wikiwars My presentation Equitable governance of multilingual WP posted: Audio and video(?) will be adJan 13 11:32
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[anivar] RT @hapeeg: RT @dina: Google & @globalvoices Breaking Borders Awards in Tech & freedom of exp, Activism. Submn: Feb 15... 13 11:32
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[anivar] RT @thewikipedian: Though a few #wikiwars participants declared as fans of Bruno Latour, long-dead Roland Barthes actually cited most here.Jan 13 11:38
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phIRCe-localHello World! I'm phIRCe-local running phIRCe v0.3Jan 13 11:41
schestowitzI got hold of some nasty stuff I don't know if I can leak :-)Jan 13 11:46
schestowitzWill probably wait with this one for a bitJan 13 11:46
schestowitzGonna post some news firstJan 13 11:46
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[anivar] tired! RT @MadanRao: Strawberries, elephants: more metaphors! @houshuang: Fascinating 2 what extent elephants became a metaphore of the dayJan 13 11:49
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[anivar] Tired! RT @MadanRao: Strawberries too. more metaphors! @houshuang: Fascinating 2 what extent elephnts became a metaphor of the day #wikiwarsJan 13 11:52
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[anivar] RT @houshuang: #wikiwars But general shape not pleasant. Like WP, we always see it "zoomed in", not from a distance?Jan 13 11:53
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[anivar] RT @anoopan: RT: @opera: Vote for HTML5/Theora support at YouTube to promote open standards! 13 12:01
phIRCe-localTitle: Google Product Ideas .::. Size~: 26.66 KBJan 13 12:01
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[anivar] RT @Srikeit: Presentation about Wikipedia: site/s for knowledge production by me and @tetisheri at #wikiwars 13 12:11
phIRCe-localTitle: Wikipedia: site/s for knowledge production .::. Size~: 49.38 KBJan 13 12:11
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] #Aruba Uses #GNU #Linux for #Network Management 13 12:14
phIRCe-localTitle: Aruba Gets Into Wired Network Management - .::. Size~: 139.95 KBJan 13 12:14
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] #GNU #Linux Desktop Well in the Mainstream 13 12:16
phIRCe-localTitle: Is this for real? «  Init Crew .::. Size~: 18.85 KBJan 13 12:16
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] #Windows Site Writes Positively About Desktop #GNU #Linux 13 12:17
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] World Programming Sued ( #GNU #Linux #Server Software) 13 12:17
phIRCe-localTitle: Editorial: Observations on Linux's Future .::. Size~: 104.66 KBJan 13 12:17
phIRCe-localTitle:             British 'david' pokes us 'goliath' in the eye  - The Inquirer          .::. Size~: 66.09 KBJan 13 12:17
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] #NVIDIA #VDPAU Assessed on #Linux 13 12:19
phIRCe-localTitle: [Phoronix] Using NVIDIA's VDPAU On Mobile Platforms .::. Size~: 18.05 KBJan 13 12:19
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] #Windows Users Should Rely on #GNU #Linux to Get Work Done 13 12:20
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] Short Review of #Tremulous for #GNU #Linux , Free Game on #GP2X Wiz 13 12:22
phIRCe-localTitle: Tremulous - An open source FPS and RTS game for Linux. | GHABUNTU .::. Size~: 88.96 KBJan 13 12:22
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] #kde and #GNOME Compared; #GDM Themes Galore 13 12:23
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] #RedHat Spreads in the Form of Partners 13 12:24
phIRCe-localTitle: KDE vs. GNOME: Photo and Music Management &mdash; .::. Size~: 67.89 KBJan 13 12:24
phIRCe-localTitle: 15 Fantastic Looking Dark GDM Themes  Make Tech Easier .::. Size~: 48.45 KBJan 13 12:24
phIRCe-localTitle:  Hub City Media Achieves Highest Red Hat Partner Status -- EDISON, N.J., Jan. 11 /PRNewswire/ -- .::. Size~: 37.28 KBJan 13 12:24
phIRCe-localTitle: Channel EMEA .::. Size~: 19.49 KBJan 13 12:24
amarsh04schestowitz, are you aware of the use of the term "anopticon" in a sci fi short story to refer to a microscope/telescope device that used no lenses or mirrors?Jan 13 12:25
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] #Fedora #GNU #Linux 12 Receives Spectacular Review 13 12:27
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[anivar] RT @MadanRao: Annotated video of #WikiWars will soon be on PADMA site Official summaries, slides on www.cis-india.orgJan 13 12:27
phIRCe-localTitle: .::. Size~: 5.18 KBJan 13 12:27
oiaohmReally MS first profit report for the year will be interesting.Jan 13 12:28
schestowitzamarsh04: did you see it mentioned (The word)?Jan 13 12:33
schestowitzoiaohm: maybe tweakedJan 13 12:33
schestowitzDeferralsJan 13 12:34
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] #SimplyMEPIS 8.0.15 is Released #mepis #debian #gnu #linuxJan 13 12:34
phIRCe-localTitle: SimplyMEPIS 8.0.15 Update Release | MEPIS .::. Size~: 10.29 KBJan 13 12:34
schestowitzBut their CFO is outJan 13 12:34
schestowitzTHe books cookJan 13 12:34
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] #Debian -based Distributions Gain New, Former #Windows Users 13 12:35
phIRCe-localTitle: Goodbye, Microsoft®: Decisions, Decisions .::. Size~: 21.83 KBJan 13 12:35
amarsh04in the register article you quoted about Italians disclosing cctv locations schestowitz which references  (Italian site)Jan 13 12:36
phIRCe-localTitle: Big Brother Viewer .::. Size~: 80.38 KBJan 13 12:36
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amarsh04schestowitz, the science fiction reference is to an Asimov short story: 13 12:40
phIRCe-localTitle: Not a web page! Aborting application/xhtml+xml; charset=utf-8 type .::. Size~: 0 KBJan 13 12:40
rnbgood morning everyoneJan 13 12:45
schestowitzHey, ryan, what's up?Jan 13 12:46
schestowitzamarsh04: I never read AsimovJan 13 12:46
rnbohJan 13 12:46
rnbworkJan 13 12:46
amarsh04ah, it was referenced at the end of the register article after all schestowitzJan 13 12:46
rnbwork, work, always workJan 13 12:46
rnbi need 1 million USDJan 13 12:47
rnbcan you hook me up?Jan 13 12:47
schestowitzWhen you find such a "hooker", hook me up tooJan 13 12:49
rnbhookers all around, then?Jan 13 12:49
schestowitzHooker can mean many thingsJan 13 12:49
schestowitzFishing, anyone? :-)Jan 13 12:49
schestowitzANyway, you shouldn't want USDsJan 13 12:49
schestowitzHigh-level sources say it will collapseJan 13 12:50
cubezzzwhat do we use then?Jan 13 12:50
schestowitzEven in "mainstream" television nowJan 13 12:50
schestowitzcubezzz: CADJan 13 12:50
schestowitzor AUD for amarsh04Jan 13 12:50
cubezzzok, I do that alreadyJan 13 12:50
rnbschestowitz: it has already collapsed quite a bitJan 13 12:52
rnbschestowitz: but, still, 1 million USD would go a long wayJan 13 12:52
cubezzzthe standard method for making a million is to get 10,000 to send you $100 for a money making scheme :)Jan 13 12:54
rnbi was just thinking ... spam is the wayJan 13 12:56
rnbi've worked with a lot of famous spammersJan 13 12:56
schestowitzThe issue is, many currencies are interconnectedJan 13 12:56
schestowitzThe dollars have not collapsed yetJan 13 12:56
schestowitzThey will when China and the MidEast will stop trading in themJan 13 12:57
rnbwell, almost -all- currencies are interconnectedJan 13 12:57
schestowitzThe pound is also sensitiveJan 13 12:57
schestowitzAJan 13 12:57
schestowitzA friend of mine converted all the savings to silverJan 13 12:57
schestowitzHis savings are in assets, not paperJan 13 12:57
rnblots of people are converting to precious metalsJan 13 12:57
rnbi would be a millionaire if i had converted my savings to gold 10 years agoJan 13 12:58
schestowitz[12:57] <rnb> well, almost -all- currencies are interconnectedJan 13 12:58
schestowitzDepends whichJan 13 12:58
schestowitzOn tradeJan 13 12:58
schestowitzUK-US for exampleJan 13 12:58
schestowitzDepends on where trade flowsJan 13 12:58
schestowitzYen-Yuan..Jan 13 12:58
rnbsome more than others but, in general, it's a global economyJan 13 12:58
schestowitzIf the dollars collapses, then importers here will be affected. Africa is more insularJan 13 12:58
rnbi cant wait to move away from the USJan 13 12:59
rnbi hate it hereJan 13 12:59
cubezzzhow come?Jan 13 13:00
rnbquality of life is terribleJan 13 13:00
schestowitzWe're still livin' in a "dollar world" because of the West's dominationJan 13 13:00
schestowitzIt's imbalanced when it comes to productionJan 13 13:00
rnbthere's really no sense of community except in the really poor parts of the countryJan 13 13:00
schestowitzRight now the arms production is led by the WestJan 13 13:00
rnband you are either working a terrible, service-oriented job and not making any moneyJan 13 13:01
schestowitzIt used to be the Soviets, but it led them to bankruptcy and their currency lost its underwearJan 13 13:01
rnbor you are living the corporat rat-race with so much stress you dont know what to do with yourselfJan 13 13:01
rnbplus we dont get health careJan 13 13:01
cubezzzI'm self-employed actuallyJan 13 13:01
rnbwe dont get schoolJan 13 13:01
rnbi'm also self-employedJan 13 13:01
rnband it is non-stop stressJan 13 13:01
schestowitzYou have mallsJan 13 13:01
cubezzzI feel there's less stress being self-employed then working as an employeeJan 13 13:02
rnbcubezzz: where do you live?Jan 13 13:02
cubezzzI'm in OntarioJan 13 13:02
rnbcubezzz: oh definitely not! as an employee you can scam your way into basically doing nothingJan 13 13:02
rnbcubezzz: well, at least, that's what i was doing but i guess you need to be at the VP or C-level to really get away with thatJan 13 13:03
rnbcubezzz: then you are just playing politics all day, not actually workingJan 13 13:03
cubezzzwell, I would never do nothing :)Jan 13 13:03
cubezzztoo boring Jan 13 13:04
schestowitzPolitics is an overstatement, rnb :-)Jan 13 13:04
schestowitzPlaceholder for many things like sucking up"Jan 13 13:04
rnbcubezzz: what do you do?Jan 13 13:04
cubezzzI do all sorts of different thingsJan 13 13:04
rnbschestowitz: eh, sometimesJan 13 13:04
rnbcubezzz: masonry? Jan 13 13:04
cubezzzI'm on call for computer repairs, I build and sell puzzles, and I do contracts as wellJan 13 13:05
rnbhuh.Jan 13 13:05
cubezzzsometimes I teachJan 13 13:06
rnbespecially in san francisco everyone is very superficialJan 13 13:07
rnband apathetic and nothing exciting ever happensJan 13 13:07
cubezzzrecently I launched a CD on tunecoreJan 13 13:07
rnbi'm sick of the projects there are to work on around hereJan 13 13:08
cubezzzthen you are close to silicon valley?Jan 13 13:08
rnbi live in san francisco; silicon valley is about 40 minutes south of here (depending on traffic)Jan 13 13:09
cubezzzhow is the economy where you are?Jan 13 13:09
rnbit's greatJan 13 13:09
rnbeverybody is hiringJan 13 13:10
rnbin fact, there arent enough qualified engineers to fill all the positionsJan 13 13:10
cubezzzand yet you say the quality of life is terrible...Jan 13 13:10
rnbyeahJan 13 13:11
rnbthe dot-com world is so boring and ... mmmJan 13 13:12
rnbvacuousJan 13 13:12
rnbi just want different clientsJan 13 13:13
rnbit's been hard making the transition that i want my business to makeJan 13 13:13
rnbto do less work for dot-com social networks and etcJan 13 13:14
cubezzzso you are a programmer then?Jan 13 13:14
rnband more work for REALLY innovative free software projectsJan 13 13:14
rnbprimarily in latin americaJan 13 13:14
rnbwell, i -am- a programmer/sysadmin but that's not my jobJan 13 13:15
rnbwe've done work for latin american governments in the past, helping them migrate to free softwareJan 13 13:18
rnbi want to do more work like thatJan 13 13:19
cubezzzFOSS seems to be bigger in South AmericaJan 13 13:21
cubezzzin North America, pffffftJan 13 13:21
cubezzzit's hardly idealJan 13 13:21
rnbyes, it's huge in latin americaJan 13 13:21
rnband that's partly because many latin american governments have mandated a migration to free softwareJan 13 13:21
rnbby lawJan 13 13:21
rnbfor all government agencies & state-owned enterprisesJan 13 13:22
cubezzzah well that would help :)Jan 13 13:22
rnblatin america is the best case study in the success of free software to completely replace proprietary softwareJan 13 13:23
cubezzzCanada seems rather sluggish in that regardJan 13 13:23
cubezzzwell, of course I know it's possibleJan 13 13:23
cubezzzit's just that people here are brain washedJan 13 13:23
rnbbut i think there is a prejudice or stereotype that many northerners haveJan 13 13:23
rnbthat latin american countries are backwards or somethingJan 13 13:23
cubezzzno, I don't assume thatJan 13 13:24
rnbwhen, really, many of them are more technologically advanced than the US isJan 13 13:24
cubezzzI know very little about central and south americaJan 13 13:24
rnbi dont mean you, but i've been frustrated trying to get free software advocates excited about what's happening in latin americaJan 13 13:24
rnbit is the free software advocate's wet dreamJan 13 13:24
rnbbut when i've spoken about it at conferences/etc people are kind of luke-warm to what's happening there, which is amazingJan 13 13:25
rnber, what is happening there is amazingJan 13 13:25
rnband it has been surprising to me that foss advocates dont have more interest in itJan 13 13:25
rnbi think it's what you're saying.. people dont know very much about latin americaJan 13 13:26
rnbbut english-speaking people dont know very much about the rest of the world, in general ;)Jan 13 13:26
cubezzzrnb, I study history a bitJan 13 13:27
cubezzzplus I am an immigrant myselfJan 13 13:27
cubezzzStallman gets aroundJan 13 13:28
rnban immigrant from where?Jan 13 13:29
cubezzzto me Germany and Japan seem "advanced"Jan 13 13:29
cubezzzrnb, Northern IrelandJan 13 13:29
rnbyes, stallman is a good allyJan 13 13:30
rnbhe also speaks spanish and he understands the significance of what's happening in latin americaJan 13 13:30
cubezzzyeah he thinks farther ahead I thinkJan 13 13:30
rnband he has a good understanding of the political situation in the americasJan 13 13:31
cubezzzI thought that FOSS might have caught on more as the world economy seems a bit slowJan 13 13:31
cubezzzit's an obvious way to cut costsJan 13 13:31
rnbwell, northern ireland is still a part of the commonwealth, no?Jan 13 13:31
cubezzzuh yeahJan 13 13:31
cubezzzit was the last time I checked :)Jan 13 13:32
rnbcubezzz: well, i've heard the foss/recession argument but... i think most companies using proprietary software would prefer to weather the stormJan 13 13:32
cubezzzI guess the biggest problem is that Microsoft has all the OEM's in a death gripJan 13 13:33
rnbcubezzz: that is, recessions make companies MORE conservative and, thus, less likely to make a major shift like switch to fossJan 13 13:33
cubezzzhmmmJan 13 13:33
rnbcubezzz: well, OEM but also microsoft has the capital to just bribe their way to bigger marketshareJan 13 13:33
rnbcubezzz: much of the shift to foss in latin america has been based in ideologyJan 13 13:34
cubezzzthe shift does seem to be to pull away from Microsoft thoughJan 13 13:34
rnbcubezzz: that is, most of the countries embracing the shift has been socialist countries or countries with socialist parties in powerJan 13 13:34
rnbcubezzz: so they are against microsoft because they are anti-imperialist, etcJan 13 13:34
cubezzzrnb, well Canada is _somewhat_ socialistJan 13 13:35
cubezzzbut it's still Microsoftland :)Jan 13 13:35
rnbcanada is social democraticJan 13 13:35
cubezzzwhich is annoyingJan 13 13:35
rnbbut it isnt even that anymoreJan 13 13:35
rnbi mean socialist like che guevara socialistJan 13 13:35
cubezzzall I know is I voted for the greens and they got zero seatsJan 13 13:35
cubezzzright, we are probably far away from thatJan 13 13:36
cubezzzI just get sick of going into a computer place and seeing all Windows and MacJan 13 13:37
cubezzzor Intel AtomsJan 13 13:37
MinceRAtom is not an OS :>Jan 13 13:37
cubezzzyes, but my point was the lack of choicesJan 13 13:38
rnbwell this is what i meanJan 13 13:40
rnbnorth american can learn from latin americaJan 13 13:40
rnbthey DO have stores which are all FOSSJan 13 13:40
rnbtheir governments are all FOSSJan 13 13:41
rnbthey have these community computer labs that anyone can useJan 13 13:41
rnball running FOSSJan 13 13:41
cubezzzyes that's uber goodJan 13 13:41
rnbbrazil announced last year that they will build 52,000 new community labsJan 13 13:41
rnbin addition to the tens of thousands that they already haveJan 13 13:41
cubezzzwe do have freenets in Canada thoughJan 13 13:41
rnbfreenets like ... the old freenets? basically a unix account?Jan 13 13:42
rnbor an actual physical computer lab?Jan 13 13:42
cubezzzyes, the old freenetsJan 13 13:42
cubezzzsome are still aroundJan 13 13:42
rnbyeahJan 13 13:42
schestowitzrnb: you should move to researchJan 13 13:43
schestowitzYou have a lot more freedom that way, I love itJan 13 13:43
rnbschestowitz: what do you mean?Jan 13 13:43
schestowitz[13:15] <rnb> well, i -am- a programmer/sysadmin but that's not my jobJan 13 13:44
schestowitz[13:37] <cubezzz> I just get sick of going into a computer place and seeing all Windows and MacJan 13 13:44
schestowitzSame in SFJan 13 13:44
schestowitzThat's just a niche marketJan 13 13:44
schestowitzJapan, EU, North AmericaJan 13 13:44
rnbschestowitz: you live in SF?Jan 13 13:44
rnbi dont know how to move into researchJan 13 13:45
schestowitzEU as inn _west_ EuropeJan 13 13:45
rnbi'd love to take on resarch jobsJan 13 13:45
rnbwhat is the "SF" in  schestowitz> Same in SF ?Jan 13 13:45
schestowitzApple could be mapped and come up very smallJan 13 13:45
schestowitzJust patches on the world's mapJan 13 13:45
cubezzzAmiga's making a comeback :)Jan 13 13:46
rnbahhh i'm confused!!!Jan 13 13:46
cubezzzAmiga will rule over all ;-)Jan 13 13:46
schestowitzMost of the world is computer illiterate and many use what's free (refurbished, sometimes with old Linux)Jan 13 13:46
schestowitzrnb: San Francisco?Jan 13 13:47
schestowitzThat's where you are, near the bay?Jan 13 13:47
schestowitzAnd no, I'm not thereJan 13 13:47
rnbschestowitz: yes, i live in downtown SFJan 13 13:47
rnbohJan 13 13:47
schestowitzMy family (relatives) is in the east coastJan 13 13:48
rnbwe tried to make the SF city government switch to all free softwareJan 13 13:48
schestowitzAnd the US moves faster towards fascist policies than in hereJan 13 13:48
cubezzzeast coast of the US you mean?Jan 13 13:48
schestowitzFormer CIA agents say thisJan 13 13:48
rnbschestowitz: "in here" -- what is "in here" ?Jan 13 13:48
schestowitzThe US is densely populated, so surveillance here is record-breakingJan 13 13:48
schestowitzrnb: CA has just made FOSS newsJan 13 13:49
rnbyes, this is another reason i want to leave SFJan 13 13:49
rnber, leave the USJan 13 13:49
schestowitzThe SS dude who runs CA had his agent defend FOSSJan 13 13:49
rnbthe US is becoming more and more of a banana republic and latin america is becoming less and less like thatJan 13 13:49
schestowitzBut maybe it's a plot to just crow about "Savings"Jan 13 13:49
schestowitzrnb: yes, but Latin America is harassed for it by the neo-banana republicsJan 13 13:50
schestowitzIt's depends on the beholderJan 13 13:50
schestowitzI sometimes think that Mexico has richer culture than the neighbours up north cause I have a friend who worked in both countriesJan 13 13:51
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rnblatin american culture is much richer, if you ask meJan 13 13:52
rnbUS culture is shallow and idioticJan 13 13:53
rnbespecially now... so much of US culture is damn near fascistJan 13 13:55
rnbi cant believe a show like "24" is considered to be a great icon of US cultureJan 13 13:56
rnbcubezzz: do you speak irish/gaelic?Jan 13 13:57
cubezzznoJan 13 13:58
cubezzzthat's more common in the Republic of IrelandJan 13 13:59
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cubezzzI should listen to some Irish radio maybe :)Jan 13 14:00
rnbright..Jan 13 14:01
rnbyou're protestant, eh? :)Jan 13 14:01
cubezzzyesJan 13 14:02
cubezzzI protest a lot :)Jan 13 14:02
cubezzzmostly against Microsoft Jan 13 14:02
cubezzzactually I do watch rte news sometimesJan 13 14:04
schestowitzurl?Jan 13 14:04
cubezzzhttp://www.rte.ieJan 13 14:04
phIRCe-localTitle: RTÉ Ireland's National Television and Radio Broadcaster .::. Size~: 35.77 KBJan 13 14:04
cubezzzactually I get it on broadcast tooJan 13 14:05
cubezzzvia WNEDJan 13 14:05
cubezzznot sure if they'll let me listen to their radio online thoughJan 13 14:06
cubezzzor if they even have internet radioJan 13 14:06
rnb 13 14:07
phIRCe-localTitle: RTÉ Ireland's National Television and Radio Broadcaster .::. Size~: 20.5 KBJan 13 14:07
rnbreal or windows media :/Jan 13 14:08
cubezzzah, they got realplayer :)Jan 13 14:08
cubezzzbetter than nothingJan 13 14:08
rnbi watch telesur all dayJan 13 14:08
rnb 13 14:08
phIRCe-localTitle:  _   Nuestro Norte es el SUR .::. Size~: 76.13 KBJan 13 14:08
cubezzzrnb, how about cspan?Jan 13 14:08
rnbactually, yeah, i sometimes leave that running in the background, tooJan 13 14:09
rnbthey have a nice streaming setup for all 3 channelsJan 13 14:10
cubezzzthe accent is strangley differentJan 13 14:10
cubezzzstrangelyJan 13 14:10
rnbwhich accent?Jan 13 14:10
cubezzzthe ie accentJan 13 14:10
rnbhow did you end up in ontario?Jan 13 14:10
cubezzzI was really young, and my parents immigrated to Canada in 1967Jan 13 14:11
rnboh, i see.. that was a volatile time in irelandJan 13 14:12
rnbis that partly why they left?Jan 13 14:12
cubezzzwe missed most of itJan 13 14:12
cubezzzprobablyJan 13 14:12
schestowitzbblJan 13 14:13
rnblast time i was in canada was for the FTAA/ALCA summit in quebecJan 13 14:13
rnbremember that?Jan 13 14:13
cubezzzummmJan 13 14:14
cubezzzvaguely :)Jan 13 14:14
cubezzz2001?Jan 13 14:14
rnbyeahJan 13 14:16
rnbla guerre du gaz!Jan 13 14:16
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[anivar] Googles "PrivacyWash" , a practice similar to Greenwash . Take a look at Breaking the Borders award #fbJan 13 14:23
phIRCe-localTitle: Global Voices Online  » Global Voices partners with Google on freedom of expression award .::. Size~: 120.26 KBJan 13 14:23
-BNi/#boycottnovell-[sagarun/@sagarun] Don't know why? suddenly listening to rocking "kuthoo" songs. Feels like dancing :DJan 13 14:23
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wallc_good morning : )Jan 13 14:26
rnbhiJan 13 14:27
wallc_rnb? I haven't met you are you?Jan 13 14:27
rnbfine, how are you?Jan 13 14:28
rnbwallc_: where are you from?Jan 13 14:28
wallc_still sleepy...need more coffee : )Jan 13 14:28
wallc_way out west in the usaJan 13 14:28
wallc_it's about 7:30am hereJan 13 14:28
wallc_yawnJan 13 14:28
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rnbi'm in san francisco and it is 6:30AM here Jan 13 14:30
rnbso it cant be WAAAY out west in the usaJan 13 14:30
wallc_well, it's west enough.  i'm a zonie, we don't change time here.Jan 13 14:30
wallc_(as in arizona)Jan 13 14:31
wallc_hey, were just waitin' for that big earthquake in california to turn our state into a beach front...Jan 13 14:31
wallc_*we're*Jan 13 14:32
wallc_just kidding...Jan 13 14:32
wallc_i just remembered the big quake in haiti yesterday, so that wasn't a funny joke...need more coffee.Jan 13 14:32
wallc_sorry...I shouldn't be left unsupervised at the computer.Jan 13 14:33
rnbno offense takenJan 13 14:37
rnbthe world might be a better place if california was underwaterJan 13 14:37
wallc_thank you...i'm honestly embarrassed to have said such a thoughtless thing...Jan 13 14:37
wallc_no, caalifornia is gorgeous...we can't lose the redwoods for sure.Jan 13 14:38
wallc_californiaJan 13 14:38
wallc_(i can only spell short words)Jan 13 14:38
wallc_and I have family over there.Jan 13 14:38
wallc_maybe if the earthquake just took san diego?  Jan 13 14:39
wallc_where is everybody this morning, it's usually very lively here.Jan 13 14:40
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Omar87__schestowitz: pingJan 13 15:03
*Omar87__ is now known as Omar87Jan 13 15:03
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Jose_Xschestowitz, for when you get back... 13 15:14
phIRCe-localTitle: What Google's Threat to Pull Out of China Really Means -- Seeking Alpha .::. Size~: 130.98 KBJan 13 15:14
Jose_X>> There’s widespread feeling among foreign companies in China that the issues Google is complaining about are real, and serious. A senior person with a leading global tech company here in Beijing who I talked to, described Google’s announcement as “unprecedented,” and said it will make everyone rethink the way they do business in China. A diplomatic contact told me that the privacy and security issues raised were so serioJan 13 15:14
Jose_Xus that “the U.S. government’s response, or lack of response, will send a profound message” not just to China, but the entire world. Already, U.S. Secretary of State Hillary Clinton is demanding an explanation from China for the alleged cyberattacks.Jan 13 15:14
Jose_X>> If it does leave, to my knowledge, Google will be the first major U.S. company to quit China explicitly for reasons of political interference — and that marks a very significant development. China has always operated on the assumption that, no matter how they might grumble, foreign investors will ultimately accept whatever strictures China dishes out because nobody, in the end, is willing to walk away from the Chinese market.Jan 13 15:15
Jose_X Google’s decision seriously undermines that assumption. There is a breaking point.Jan 13 15:15
schestowitzrnb: wallc is cool, isn't she? :-)Jan 13 15:16
schestowitzOmar87: Pong.Jan 13 15:16
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schestowitzJose_X: yes, I just got back. I saw an artilce about it in the NYT earlierJan 13 15:17
schestowitzClinton has always been a ChinaphobJan 13 15:17
Jose_Xalso 13 15:18
phIRCe-localTitle: Google to end China censorship after e-mail breach - Yahoo! Finance .::. Size~: 88.5 KBJan 13 15:18
rnbschestowitz: dunno, barely talked to herJan 13 15:18
schestowitzHe campaign funding is worth a glimpseJan 13 15:18
Jose_Xthis one has some details over what happenedJan 13 15:18
schestowitzrnb: she helps us a lot in resarchJan 13 15:18
Jose_X>> Without providing details, Google said it and at least 20 other major companies from the Internet, financial services, technology, media and chemical industries were targeted. The heist lifted some of Google's intellectual property but didn't get any information about the users of its services, the company said. Google has passed along what it knows so far to U.S. authorities and other affected companies.Jan 13 15:18
schestowitz*searchJan 13 15:18
rnbChina isnt going to care one bit if Google "leaves" ChinaJan 13 15:18
Omar87schestowitz: So, you still believe that the Freemasons ain't no "evil", and have nothing to do with all these "silly conspiracy theories"?Jan 13 15:18
rnbschestowitz: who is "us" ?Jan 13 15:18
schestowitzOmar87: exaggerationsaJan 13 15:18
schestowitzOmar87: exaggerationsJan 13 15:18
Omar87schestowitz: OkJan 13 15:18
schestowitzThey make money from the nonsenseJan 13 15:18
rnbschestowitz: i want to do research!Jan 13 15:18
schestowitzThey sell tapes and stuff (Jones and Ilk/Ike)Jan 13 15:19
schestowitzrnb: what type?Jan 13 15:19
Jose_X>> Only two e-mail accounts were infiltrated in these attacks, Google said, and the intruders were only able to see subject lines and the dates that the individual accounts were created. None of the content written within the body of the e-mails leaked out, Google said.Jan 13 15:19
Jose_XAs part of its investigation into that incident, Google stumbled onto another scam that was more successful. Google said dozens of activists fighting the Chinese government's policies fell prey to ruses commonly known as "phishing" or malware. The victims live in the United States, Europe and China, Google said.Jan 13 15:19
schestowitzMy Ph.D. makes me more qualified for it, I guess, but research is a matter of reputation as much as skillsJan 13 15:19
rnbschestowitz: i dont know, what type do you do?Jan 13 15:19
schestowitzMedical biophysicsJan 13 15:20
schestowitzIt's more interdisciplinaryJan 13 15:20
Omar87schestowitz: then how do you explain that when my cousin wrote an article for a course in his college about the relation between "Zionism" and "Freemasonry", that the professor refuse to let him read it, and he's been feeling very paranoid since then?Jan 13 15:20
schestowitzOmar87: trueJan 13 15:20
schestowitzIt's not based on factsJan 13 15:20
schestowitzYou could go with established sourceJan 13 15:21
schestowitzThis one reeks of Jones and Ilk(R)Jan 13 15:21
Omar87schestowitz: "Paranoid" as in "he's being watched", and even if he says anything about it on the phone, the line suddenly hangs up for no reason.Jan 13 15:21
schestowitzRothschild (Red Shield) is worth exploring though, but too many crackpots have polluted the pool of knowledgeJan 13 15:21
schestowitzOmar87: probably an exaggerationJan 13 15:22
schestowitzThey don't trigger hangups on wordsJan 13 15:22
schestowitzAnd I very much doubt that in Jordan they would do thatJan 13 15:22
Omar87schestowitz: Exaggerations? It's happening to him! :-)Jan 13 15:22
schestowitzStatically speaking?Jan 13 15:22
schestowitzHow many times?Jan 13 15:22
schestowitzWhat sample size?Jan 13 15:22
Omar87schestowitz: and he's my cousin, he's my relative, ya know. :DJan 13 15:22
schestowitzHow is recurrence?Jan 13 15:23
schestowitzI knowJan 13 15:23
schestowitzBut he can select just what suits his convictionJan 13 15:23
schestowitzTake the alien freaks for exampleJan 13 15:23
Jose_XAnd this one mentions some responses from citizens: 13 15:23
phIRCe-localTitle: Google threat a rare show of defiance in China - Yahoo! Finance .::. Size~: 93.72 KBJan 13 15:23
schestowitzThose who believe that people exactly our size travel across galaxies just to do sexual experiments on us and get us back home by 6amJan 13 15:24
Jose_X>> "Google is a great soldier of freedom. You don't bend to the devils," said a note on the site 13 15:24
Jose_XA posting on pleaded, "Google please don't go. We can't let you go. Real man, we support you."Jan 13 15:24
Jose_XA photo on a Chinese Web site showed a visitor outside the Google building bowing in a traditional gesture of respect.Jan 13 15:24
Omar87schestowitz: Ya know something? Even sometimes, some people say "Hi" to him and even call his name even though he's sure as hell he never met them before.Jan 13 15:24
phIRCe-localTitle: 猫扑 - 中国第一娱乐互动门户 .::. Size~: 109.53 KBJan 13 15:24
schestowitzAnd then they say:Jan 13 15:24
schestowitz"Wow, people look weird at me..."Jan 13 15:24
schestowitz"They must be hiding something"Jan 13 15:24
schestowitzNo...Jan 13 15:24
schestowitzThey look at you weird cause they think, "OMG!  This man is insane!"Jan 13 15:24
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cubezzzhmmm?Jan 13 15:25
Omar87schestowitz: And the hang up happen quite frequently. Almost every time he mentions anything about the subject.Jan 13 15:25
schestowitzJose_X: China should embrace Google for its own useJan 13 15:25
schestowitzGoogle gives them other sourcesJan 13 15:25
Jose_X>> On Wednesday, said its top search term of the day was "Tiananmen," possibly due to Web surfers looking for material on the government's violent crackdown on 1989 pro-democracy protests. The No. 2 search topic was "Google leaving China."Jan 13 15:25
schestowitzLike channels such as Aljazeera to the WestJan 13 15:25
schestowitzTo understand the stories which the media here deliberately spikesJan 13 15:25
Jose_Xbtw, that last article says that google might still be censoring but other stories have confirmed that access is now open (or much more so)Jan 13 15:25
FurnaceBoyJose_X: the press release did not say they stopped censoring.Jan 13 15:26
schestowitzJose_X: I hope they open it upJan 13 15:26
schestowitzJose_X: but...Jan 13 15:26
FurnaceBoythey can't.Jan 13 15:26
schestowitzGoogle censors in the UK tooJan 13 15:26
schestowitzGoogle censors in the US..Jan 13 15:26
schestowitzGoogle censors in the France..Jan 13 15:26
schestowitzGoogle censors in the germany.....Jan 13 15:26
schestowitzOOPSJan 13 15:27
schestowitztake out the "the"Jan 13 15:27
FurnaceBoygoogle censors your momJan 13 15:27
schestowitzThey censor some stuff that *WE* find vileJan 13 15:27
schestowitzLike hate speech and neo-Nazi stuffJan 13 15:27
FurnaceBoyrubbish, I can find Sarah Palin on google any time.Jan 13 15:27
schestowitzSo to China, the issue is one of /what/ gets censoredJan 13 15:27
schestowitzYouTuve started censoring tooJan 13 15:27
Omar87schestowitz: ya know something? I kinda feel bad for Wikileaks.Jan 13 15:27
schestowitzFor using strong language for exapleJan 13 15:27
schestowitzFurnaceBoy: Jan 13 15:28
schestowitz!gooogle michelle obama censorJan 13 15:28
schestowitz!google michelle obama censorJan 13 15:28
phIRCe-local[1] - YouTube - Unnecessary Censorship- Michelle Obama and Elmo | 13 15:28
phIRCe-local[2] - Outrage: Google Censors Michelle Obama Monkey Pic | 13 15:28
phIRCe-local[3] - Michelle Obama racist image sparks Google apology - Censorship | 13 15:28
phIRCe-local[4] - Michelle Obama 'racist' picture that is topping Google Images ... | 13 15:28
Omar87schestowitz: there's gotta be something that can be done to help get it back up and running again.Jan 13 15:28
FurnaceBoyschestowitz: yeah i know, i've seen these stories.Jan 13 15:28
schestowitzwhat's next?Jan 13 15:28
schestowitzCan I -- mere citizen -- also take down defamatory photos of me? Can you?Jan 13 15:28
schestowitzThey open up to a sea of fecesJan 13 15:29
schestowitzOmar87: yes, me tooJan 13 15:29
schestowitzLegal risksJan 13 15:29
Omar87schestowitz: True.Jan 13 15:29
schestowitzFilthy rich lawyers and DMCAs/C&D versus truthJan 13 15:29
schestowitzBarclay, Swiss banks, Trafigura, MoD......Jan 13 15:30
schestowitzYou know what it tells you?Jan 13 15:30
schestowitzIt tells you the law is contructed and refined by those who need to hide their crimes, as Lessig puts it (sorta)Jan 13 15:30
schestowitzWe are told not what we are allowedJan 13 15:30
schestowitzJust what we are _dis_allowedJan 13 15:31
schestowitzThis way, our actions can be containedJan 13 15:31
schestowitzWe are subjected to complyJan 13 15:31
schestowitzThe idea of "increasing security" established precisely thatJan 13 15:31
schestowitzMore dehumanisation, erosion of rightsJan 13 15:32
schestowitz!google santa bomb threat 2009 jokeJan 13 15:32
phIRCe-local[1] - Bomb threat forces evacuation | bomb, amormino, threat - News ... | 13 15:32
phIRCe-local[2] - Going Postal: Grandma's bomb threat, drunken chess-playing and ... | 13 15:32
phIRCe-local[3] - Bomb threat, scuffle on Atlanta-to-LAX flight; man detained | L.A. ... | 13 15:32
phIRCe-local[4] - 30 Rock Review: "Secret Santa" (episode 4.8) :: TV :: Reviews :: Paste | 13 15:32
schestowitzhmmmmm..Jan 13 15:32
schestowitzGot this by mail: "I worked at Microsoft as an intern a few years ago but have since cut my ties with them. I’m very grateful for their support over the years and the acquaintances I’ve made and the positive impact they’ve had on my future career. In spite of this, I remain impartial and unbiased to my views."Jan 13 15:33
schestowitz 13 15:33
phIRCe-localTitle: iGeneration | .::. Size~: 74.4 KBJan 13 15:33
schestowitz 13 15:33
phIRCe-localTitle: Live blog: Can a student go fully open source for 48 hours? | iGeneration | .::. Size~: 188.62 KBJan 13 15:33
schestowitzWatch out, even though he's cool with Firefox he could diss Linux next. Wait and watch....Jan 13 15:33
schestowitzZDNet is filling itself up with current, former and future employees of Microsoft (Bott, Foley, Ou, Carrol, now this guy...)Jan 13 15:34
cubezzzwho?Jan 13 15:36
schestowitzLook em upJan 13 15:38
schestowitzI wanna go somewhere, it's snowing again.Jan 13 15:38
schestowitzbblJan 13 15:38
cubezzzhe doesn't seem to have much to sayJan 13 15:39
cubezzz 13 15:45
phIRCe-localTitle: Slashdot Science Story | Organ Damage In Rats From Monsanto GMO Corn .::. Size~: 170.62 KBJan 13 15:45
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Jose_Xschestowitz, google image search for "michelle obama monkey picture" has that picture second and includes as well and 13 15:54
phIRCe-localTitle: Not a web page! Aborting image/jpeg type .::. Size~: 0 KBJan 13 15:54
phIRCe-localTitle: Not a web page! Aborting image/jpeg type .::. Size~: 0 KBJan 13 15:54
Jose_X 13 15:55
phIRCe-localTitle: Michelle Obama Pictures UPDATE: Offensive Image REMOVED, Google 'SORRY' (PHOTO) .::. Size~: 285.29 KBJan 13 15:55
Jose_X>> The image was previously removed by Google on the grounds that the site hosting the Michelle Obama picture "violated Google's guidelines by serving malware to visitors," SearchEngineLand writes.Jan 13 15:56
Jose_XNow, however, the offensive photo has been posted to another site that does not violate Google rules. Jan 13 15:56
Jose_XhoweverJan 13 15:56
Jose_Xa google search for "" yields nothingJan 13 15:56
Jose_Xdespite that website clearly existing 13 15:57
phIRCe-localTitle: Error processing the URL:  .::. Size~: 0 KBJan 13 15:57
Jose_Xotoh, the website might be parked domain (i don't know but i just see ads basically)Jan 13 15:58
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Will_schestowitz:  Thought this might interest you: 13 15:59
phIRCe-localTitle: Slashdot Science Story | Organ Damage In Rats From Monsanto GMO Corn .::. Size~: 171.9 KBJan 13 15:59
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-BNc/#boycottnovell-[zoobab] Next Commissioner Michel Barnier said a central patent court EU is a top priority (in order to get case law on software patents)Jan 13 16:08
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[zoobab] EPO software patents coming to Montenegro now: 13 16:13
phIRCe-localTitle: EPO - Extension of European patents to Montenegro (ME) .::. Size~: 16.96 KBJan 13 16:13
MinceRschestowitz: do you agree with censoring "hate speech" and neo-nazi stuff?Jan 13 16:16
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[zoobab] Next EU Commissioner Michel Barnier (Sarkozy proxy) just mentioned ACTA as a better way to fight piracy #actaJan 13 16:27
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-BNc/#boycottnovell-[davidgerard] off ill today. have not the brain. elderly cat is apparently incontinent from senility! est. age 15. teeth cleaned. a just off to fetch him.Jan 13 16:55
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trmanco 13 17:48
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-BNc/#boycottnovell-[anivar] RT @sivavaid: Google and the China Syndrome: My general thoughts on Google in China: 13 18:02
phIRCe-localTitle: My general thoughts on Google in China (written long before the January showdown) (The Googlization of Everything) .::. Size~: 54.53 KBJan 13 18:02
pawel_121 13 18:08
phIRCe-localTitle: Linux Today - Open Invitation to Mono Proponents to Set the Record Straight .::. Size~: 80.89 KBJan 13 18:08
pawel_121some mono bullJan 13 18:08
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[anivar] RT @rmack: RT @globalvoices: Our page aggregating coverage of the Haiti earthquake is now up at #haitiJan 13 18:19
phIRCe-localTitle: Global Voices Online  » Haiti Earthquake 2010 .::. Size~: 118.99 KBJan 13 18:19
schestowitzMonsanto crap again.... Jan 13 18:28
schestowitzI'm gonna do a while week on themJan 13 18:28
schestowitzThis is the department I'm trying to find out about post-doctoral positions in 13 18:28
phIRCe-localTitle: Home page (Brooks World Poverty Institute - The University of Manchester) .::. Size~: 15.9 KBJan 13 18:28
schestowitzToo much time spent on it, less on BNJan 13 18:28
schestowitzMinceR: that censorship is complicatedJan 13 18:28
schestowitzGoogle does what shareholder wants at the end, all things consideredJan 13 18:29
MinceRwhich is to be expectedJan 13 18:29
MinceRsticking a "Do No Evil" label on it doesn't make it any less evilJan 13 18:29
schestowitzDo know evil?Jan 13 18:31
MinceR:)Jan 13 18:31
MinceRfrom the inside?Jan 13 18:31
pawel_121and here:Jan 13 18:34
pawel_121 13 18:34
phIRCe-localTitle: How To Defend Against Software Patent FUD - Jonathan Pryor's web log .::. Size~: 13.64 KBJan 13 18:34
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[anivar] RT @Srikeit: Nishant Shah talks abt the #wikiwars conference & #wikipedia in general in a podcast by @livemint 13 18:37
phIRCe-localTitle: Playcast: Waging wikiwars, tech behind golf balls and tweeple - Technology - .::. Size~: 85.69 KBJan 13 18:37
pawel_121those mono morons make me sickJan 13 18:37
schestowitzpawel_121: it's oldJan 13 18:38
schestowitzPre-TomTomJan 13 18:38
pawel_121schestowitz: okJan 13 18:38
pawel_121schestowitz: it's sad nobody commented there before ;)Jan 13 18:39
pawel_121posted a comment* Jan 13 18:39
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] #Ubuntu Manual Begins to be Revealed, #Linux Mint 8.0 Reviewed 13 18:46
phIRCe-localTitle: A Quick Preview Of The Upcoming Ubuntu Manual | Learning Ubuntu .::. Size~: 18.13 KBJan 13 18:46
phIRCe-localTitle: Mint Linux Mint 8.0 review - IT Reviews .::. Size~: 12.75 KBJan 13 18:46
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schestowitzpawel_121: maybe betterJan 13 18:49
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-BNc/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] Mobile #Linux Advanced by #Qualcomm , Intel, Others 13 18:50
schestowitzIt does not deserve attentionJan 13 18:50
phIRCe-localTitle: InformationWeek – Open Source > Open Source Business Intelligence Makes a Beginning in India .::. Size~: 65.48 KBJan 13 18:50
phIRCe-localTitle: Apps: They're not just for your phone anymore - .::. Size~: 54.3 KBJan 13 18:50
phIRCe-localTitle: Tablets, e-book readers showstoppers at CES- Electronics-Cons. Products-News By Industry-News-The Economic Times .::. Size~: 50.78 KBJan 13 18:50
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] More #Linux #Phones Surface at #CES2010 13 18:51
phIRCe-localTitle: New Toys: Interesting Mobile Linux Devices at CES - Linux Magazine Online  .::. Size~: 32.69 KBJan 13 18:51
phIRCe-localTitle: Motorola Backflip Android phone | Mobile Phones | Web User .::. Size~: 52.63 KBJan 13 18:51
phIRCe-localTitle: Discussion Forums: Superphone smackdown: Nexus One vs. Nokia N900 .::. Size~: 29.62 KBJan 13 18:51
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] #Edubook Sub-notebooks with #GNU #Linux (Puppy) Already Liked by Some 13 18:53
phIRCe-localTitle:   NorhTec Gecko Edubook + Puppy Linux: Thats more like it .::. Size~: 26.69 KBJan 13 18:53
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] #SANDcamp Created to Celebrate Free (Libre) CMS Software #drupalJan 13 18:57
phIRCe-localTitle: January 23 - SANDCamp 2010 | StartupSD .::. Size~: 22.36 KBJan 13 18:57
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] #AirForce Relies on #FreeSoftware Developers at University of Nebraska 13 18:58
phIRCe-localTitle: Laboratory Equipment - Air Force Improves Software Testing .::. Size~: 57.4 KBJan 13 18:58
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] Role of #FreeSoftware Expected to Increase in 2010 13 18:59
phIRCe-localTitle: 3D TV, cloud computing and USB 3.0 to lead way in 2010 .::. Size~: 31.98 KBJan 13 18:59
phIRCe-localTitle: GroundWork Open Source Increases Customer-base by 105 Percent with 6.0 Release .::. Size~: 76.11 KBJan 13 18:59
phIRCe-localTitle: xTuple Announces Unsurpassed 2009 Growth .::. Size~: 74.75 KBJan 13 18:59
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] Counterfeiting in #Indonesia Under Fire, #GNU #Linux and #FreeSoftware a Solution 13 19:02
phIRCe-localTitle: Tech Pirates Find Safe Port In Indonesia - The Jakarta Globe .::. Size~: 42.39 KBJan 13 19:02
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] #Facebook Pays #Apache a Token for Its Contribution to Facebook 13 19:03
phIRCe-localTitle: Facebook friends Apache with $40,000 | The Open Road - CNET News .::. Size~: 85.04 KBJan 13 19:03
phIRCe-localTitle: Open Source: Facebook Is Now an Apache Software Foundation Gold Sponsor .::. Size~: 49.67 KBJan 13 19:03
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] #FreeSoftware #Multimedia Wins High Regards 13 19:05
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] #Mozilla Grows Very Rapidly, #Ogg Now Pushed by #Opera 13 19:05
phIRCe-localTitle: Boxee Box victorious at Vegas' Last Gadget Standing contest | .::. Size~: 40.3 KBJan 13 19:05
phIRCe-localTitle: Mozilla Starts to Follow a New Drumbeat - Community - ComputerworldUK .::. Size~: 82.71 KBJan 13 19:05
phIRCe-localTitle:  Opera Using GStreamer, Pushing Ogg  .::. Size~: 37.83 KBJan 13 19:05
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] #FreeSoftware in #Government : Australia, US, Jordan 13 19:06
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] New #OpenAccess Journal, Jaron Lanier Attacks Openness for Profit! 13 19:06
phIRCe-localTitle: Open Source Meets Cloud Computing | Government IT Blog | InformationWeek Government .::. Size~: 41.09 KBJan 13 19:06
phIRCe-localTitle: Jordan: The Open Source Hub Of The Middle East - Katonda .::. Size~: 26.16 KBJan 13 19:06
phIRCe-localTitle: New Peer-Reviewed, Open Access Journal About Academic Librarianship Debuts «  ResourceShelf .::. Size~: 9.35 KBJan 13 19:06
phIRCe-localTitle: Jaron Lanier's sloppy case against the forces of the internet  Telegraph Blogs .::. Size~: 51.44 KBJan 13 19:06
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] #Programming : #Java and C++ Performance Compared 13 19:07
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] #Microsoft #Windows #Botnets Take #Baidu Offline 13 19:08
phIRCe-localTitle: Group behind Twitter hack takes down Baidu search engine | Security Central - InfoWorld .::. Size~: 75.75 KBJan 13 19:08
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] #Wikileaks Explains What's Involved in Defending Civil Rights with Leaks 13 19:09
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] #Amazon Lies to 'Sell' #DRM -Laden Books (Licence to Hire) 13 19:09
phIRCe-localTitle: Leak-o-nomy: The Economy of Wikileaks «  Medien-Ökonomie-Blog .::. Size~: 43.91 KBJan 13 19:09
phIRCe-localTitle: Even Amazon can't keep its EULA story straight Boing Boing .::. Size~: 119.06 KBJan 13 19:09
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] #IntellectualMonopolies Infect #Education System, AP 'Steals' Stories 13 19:10
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] The #MAFIAA Wants More Power Over the #Internet in the UK 13 19:10
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] The White-Collar Crime Known as "ACTA" Explained, Dissected 13 19:10
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] Greedy Lawyers Want #SoftwarePatents , VC Firm Does Not 13 19:10
phIRCe-localTitle: Intellectual property at issue | Penn State News | Local - Centre Daily Times .::. Size~: 99.92 KBJan 13 19:10
phIRCe-localTitle: AP Summarizes Other Journalists' Article; Isn't That What The AP Says Violates The Law? | Techdirt .::. Size~: 72.3 KBJan 13 19:10
phIRCe-localTitle: Record labels seek DMCA-style UK takedowns • The Register .::. Size~: 28.29 KBJan 13 19:10
phIRCe-localTitle: Explaining The Copyright Bubble... And Why Big Corporations Want To Keep ACTA Secret | Techdirt .::. Size~: 84.94 KBJan 13 19:10
phIRCe-localTitle: Reading Between The Still Secret Lines Of The ACTA Negotiations | Techdirt .::. Size~: 83.34 KBJan 13 19:10
phIRCe-localTitle: IP Lawyer: If You Are Against Software Patents, You Are Against Innovation | Techdirt .::. Size~: 118.44 KBJan 13 19:10
phIRCe-localTitle: Well Respected VC Firm Comes Out In Favor Of Independent Invention Defense Against Patent Infringement Lawsuits | Techdirt .::. Size~: 63.99 KBJan 13 19:10
phIRCe-localTitle: Technology Review: Blogs: Feld Thoughts: Proposal: An Independent Inventor Defense Against Software Patents .::. Size~: 48.22 KBJan 13 19:10
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] #MAFIAA Shuts Down Almost 400 Torrent Sites (Assumes Everything is Hollywood's) 13 19:11
phIRCe-localTitle:    BREIN Shuts Down 393 Torrent Sites, No One Notices | TorrentFreak   .::. Size~: 98.35 KBJan 13 19:11
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] Reminder of Reasons to Use GNU/Linux: Ownership 13 19:12
phIRCe-localTitle: Windows goes rental - Computerworld Blogs .::. Size~: 133.66 KBJan 13 19:12
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-BNc/#boycottnovell-[popey] Pro Tip: Stepping out of the shower without styling hair, then putting on a wooly hat for the commute makes for stupid hair all day. #fbJan 13 19:25
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[popey] Pro Tip Addendum: Also ensure the hat isn't the _only_ thing you're wearing. #fbJan 13 19:25
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-BNc/#boycottnovell-[popey] Ubuntu listens! Free culture showcase now accepts additional file formats such as PDF and SVG for inclusion \o/ #fb 13 19:43
phIRCe-localTitle: UbuntuFreeCultureShowcase - Ubuntu Wiki .::. Size~: 19.29 KBJan 13 19:43
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-BNc/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] Gates-backed GMO Goliath deserves more exposure, but not necessarily the exposure it wants 13 20:38
phIRCe-localTitle: Week of Monsanto | Boycott Novell .::. Size~: 92.12 KBJan 13 20:38
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[thistleweb] BBC admits it went too far in U2 tie-up | Media | 13 20:39
phIRCe-localTitle: BBC admits it went too far in U2 tie-up |Media | .::. Size~: 184.25 KBJan 13 20:39
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-BNc/#boycottnovell-[popey] Wife in lounge watching Holby City downloaded from BBC iplayer on @Boxee.I'm in the kitchen watching the other online video service. :) #fbJan 13 20:40
oiaohm  Great artical Jan 13 20:40
phIRCe-localTitle: 10 Mistakes Linux learners should avoid | Penguin Inside .::. Size~: 114.56 KBJan 13 20:40
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[thistleweb] lol talented Tores "the ball hit his backside but he did his best to control it" words paint an interesting picture #bbcfiveliveJan 13 20:44
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] “British Education” is #Microsoft Indoctrination 13 20:44
phIRCe-localTitle: “British Education” is Microsoft Indoctrination | Boycott Novell .::. Size~: 92.56 KBJan 13 20:44
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[thistleweb] Congressional hearings grill banking's biggest names | Business | 13 20:45
phIRCe-localTitle: Congressional hearings grill banking's biggest names |Business | .::. Size~: 156.53 KBJan 13 20:45
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] Vista Mobile 7 Likely Delayed One Year; #Vista7 Always Rented, Not Sold 13 20:53
phIRCe-localTitle: Vista Mobile 7 Likely Delayed One Year; Vista 7 Always Rented, Not Sold | Boycott Novell .::. Size~: 90.49 KBJan 13 20:53
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wallc_I finally installed the Chrome browser.  Holy cow!  It's so fast! And clean. I didn't think I'd like it, but I do (had to have adblock though)Jan 13 20:59
wallc_where is everyone today? It's tooo quiet here.Jan 13 21:00
schestowitzhey, wallc_Jan 13 21:01
wallc_Hi!Jan 13 21:01
schestowitzHow are you?Jan 13 21:01
wallc_Did you see where mutex called me a BN guard dog?  lolJan 13 21:01
wallc_woof!Jan 13 21:01
wallc_:)Jan 13 21:01
schestowitzIt's a tactic they haveJan 13 21:01
wallc_Grrrr!Jan 13 21:02
schestowitzThey do the same in USENETJan 13 21:02
schestowitzThe recipe is simpleJan 13 21:02
schestowitzThere's a couple of themJan 13 21:02
schestowitzFirst:Jan 13 21:02
schestowitzDevice and conquer goes like this:Jan 13 21:02
wallc_I know, but it seemed funny to call me a guard dog.Jan 13 21:02
schestowitz*DivideJan 13 21:02
wallc_it made me laugh.Jan 13 21:02
schestowitzSay, "this person is rational and OK and this friend of yours is crazy"Jan 13 21:02
schestowitzYou then try to create friction by distancing a single faction into radical and less radicalJan 13 21:03
wallc_so...which one of us is the crazy one?Jan 13 21:03
schestowitzI've seen it happenJan 13 21:03
wallc_hehJan 13 21:03
schestowitzBUT...Jan 13 21:03
schestowitzIt needs to come from sockpuppetsJan 13 21:03
wallc_:)Jan 13 21:03
schestowitzSo the puppet will befriend one sideJan 13 21:03
schestowitzAnd then attack the other fragment of the same sideJan 13 21:03
schestowitzLike the wars you see in FOSSJan 13 21:03
schestowitzMicrosoft does thatJan 13 21:03
schestowitzKNowinglyJan 13 21:04
schestowitzTrolls do that tooJan 13 21:04
schestowitzThe second tactic:Jan 13 21:04
schestowitzInsult and defamationJan 13 21:04
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schestowitzYou call one side another side's "Dog" or "pet" or "dick sucker" or somethingJan 13 21:04
wallc_I know.  and i shouldn't have fed the troll, but sometimes us guard dogs gotta bark a little. :)Jan 13 21:04
schestowitzTHat leaves that side bashful and distances from the otherJan 13 21:04
schestowitzCause nobody wants to be "Dog" or "pet" or "dick sucker"Jan 13 21:04
wallc_hey, lighten up a little 'kay?Jan 13 21:05
wallc_:)Jan 13 21:05
wallc_woof.Jan 13 21:05
schestowitzI'm lightened upJan 13 21:05
schestowitzI'm just explainingJan 13 21:05
schestowitzWatch out for these patternsJan 13 21:05
wallc_i'm really just a chihuahuaJan 13 21:05
schestowitzThere's a good summary of trolls types... hold onJan 13 21:05
wallc_stop...i know trolls when i see them.Jan 13 21:06
schestowitz 13 21:06
wallc_they are easy to spot.  Jan 13 21:06
phIRCe-localTitle: Common Troll Tactics - Boycott Novell .::. Size~: 36.33 KBJan 13 21:06
schestowitzYes, but you need to know how to respond tooJan 13 21:06
schestowitzThey have ways of disrupting, that's their purposeJan 13 21:06
wallc_did i say something wrong in my comment to him?Jan 13 21:06
wallc_?Jan 13 21:07
oiaohmIts getting harder and harder to start a war.Jan 13 21:07
wallc_a war with who (whom?)Jan 13 21:08
wallc_?Jan 13 21:08
schestowitzmutexJan 13 21:08
schestowitzOh, wait.Jan 13 21:09
oiaohmIts like the classic you see MS Sock puppets bring up.  Linux Kernel Does not have a Stable Driver API.  Yes I insult them for being idiots.   Linux syscalls work from kernel space.  Its just slower.  Jan 13 21:09
schestowitzI though wallc said that..Jan 13 21:09
wallc_pfft...mutex lost the battle long ago...Jan 13 21:09
oiaohmWith all the complier differences interface to the Linux kernel are only stable once they become a syscall.Jan 13 21:09
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-christel-[Global Notice] Hi all, we are currently experiencing a "new sort of spam" -- where the spammer claims to be tunelling via HTTP POST and encourages you to visit a url. Visiting the URL opens another connecting via YOUR ip which spams further, we encourage you to NOT click the link to avoid being banned from channels or the network. Thank you.Jan 13 21:10
oiaohmI also note the MS sock puppets never talked about the lack of KMS and other key items required to make desktops work.Jan 13 21:10
oiaohmInstead they would focus in on the applications.Jan 13 21:11
MinceRthey have no clueJan 13 21:11
oiaohmIe applications cannot work well if the under frameworks don't work well.Jan 13 21:11
MinceRactually desktops worked without KMS, just not so well :>Jan 13 21:11
oiaohmI was meaning work as in work well.Jan 13 21:12
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] “Mixed Source” and “Half Pregnant” 13 21:13
phIRCe-localTitle: “Mixed Source” and “Half Pregnant” | Boycott Novell .::. Size~: 91.28 KBJan 13 21:13
oiaohmNext most fun one was they would say it was about the applications.   Then tell Linux people to drop X11.   Hang on X11 was only around because of the applications.   Yes loving to have there cake and eat it too.Jan 13 21:13
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wallc_well, i've been doing a marathon of transcribing Comes v MS pdfs for the last three eyes are glazed. time to put the mouse down and step away from the keyboard...take care all.Jan 13 21:17
wallc_:)Jan 13 21:17
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amd-linuxhello roy, just want to let you know that I like your new Monsanto coverage. Monsanto is an ever greater threat to our freedom than the dying Microsoft dinosaur. Keep the good work on in 2010!Jan 13 21:20
oiaohmNot just freedom.  amd-linux.  Monsanto could be a threat to our life.  Jan 13 21:23
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] Dangerous Fonts and #DMCA Takedown 13 21:24
phIRCe-localTitle: Eye on Microsoft: Dangerous Fonts and DMCA Takedown | Boycott Novell .::. Size~: 88 KBJan 13 21:24
schestowitzamd-linux: did you see the protests in Germany?Jan 13 21:24
schestowitz2009?Jan 13 21:24
schestowitzRMS and zoobab were both thereJan 13 21:24
schestowitzActually, zoobab, were you there?Jan 13 21:25
schestowitzoiaohm: yes, they make natural DNA extinct if not a dying breedeJan 13 21:25
schestowitzThe world can end up contaminated with experimental DNA chains that are carcinogens Jan 13 21:26
amd-linuxprotests regarding monsanto? recently? no, not aware of, but Greenpeace Germany is active wrt MonsantoJan 13 21:26
schestowitzYou know why they 'donate'  royalty-free to Africa? It's to further contaminate the seed supplyJan 13 21:26
schestowitzI wonder if Mr. Gates is gullible or just a vicious *****Jan 13 21:26
schestowitzamd-linux: hold onJan 13 21:27
schestowitzamd-linux: 13 21:27 is down at the momentJan 13 21:28
schestowitzSee 13 21:28
phIRCe-localTitle: Black Friday Film: What the Bill Gates-Backed Monsanto Does to Animals, Farmers, Food, and Patent Systems | Boycott Novell .::. Size~: 111.72 KBJan 13 21:28
oiaohmWe still don't understand dna and other items well enough.Jan 13 21:28
oiaohmIt be messing with it too much.Jan 13 21:29
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schestowitz;content "This year, likely February or maybe March, I’ll be going under for three weeks - not on here though, I’ll be having my laptop in hospital - as I undergo groundbreaking brain surgery to attempt to cure a neurological illness I’ve been lumbered with."Jan 13 21:30
phIRCe-localTitle: iGeneration | .::. Size~: 155.3 KBJan 13 21:30
amd-linuxAh, no, I was not there. No leasure time weekdays, as I am working in an industry that currently is under fire... :-)Jan 13 21:30
schestowitzHmmmmm..... I was going to criticise him for something else, now I hesitateJan 13 21:30
amd-linuxhowever, wrt Monsanto, I could puke. I will never understand the people who drive such companies.Jan 13 21:30
schestowitzamd-linux: you're a fire fighter?Jan 13 21:30
amd-linuxsort of :-)Jan 13 21:31
schestowitzamd-linux: watch the daily videosJan 13 21:31
schestowitzI will post over 8Jan 13 21:31
schestowitzIf you think you're sick of them, you haven't seen anything yetJan 13 21:31
schestowitzThey should be in prison, or the chairJan 13 21:31
amd-linuxin Germany, the face stiff resistance with their tactics even in the current governmentJan 13 21:33
amd-linuxbecause we have a strong rural influence especially here in Bavaria, and Monsanto has quite a bad reputation among farmers hereJan 13 21:33
amd-linuxthey were denied tests for their patented genome manipulated crop here last year, as far as i rememberJan 13 21:34
amd-linuxso hopefully they will not be able to poison my country at least.Jan 13 21:35
amd-linuxWish you guys a successful, healthy 2010 - keep it on! Good night.Jan 13 21:35
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DaemonFCI wonder if Rapidshare Downloader works on WineJan 13 21:38
oiaohmSo far I not heard of anyone using it on wine.Jan 13 21:38
DaemonFCit's a .Net application, so I'd need the Windows version of Mono in Wine if it was to workJan 13 21:38
DaemonFCit also embeds IE's Trident engineJan 13 21:39
oiaohmDepends if that is a pure .net application or not.Jan 13 21:39
oiaohmO boy.Jan 13 21:39
oiaohmWine replacement to IE Trident is a alter version of gecko.Jan 13 21:39
oiaohmIe Firefox.Jan 13 21:40
DaemonFCI wish more people would use MegaUploadJan 13 21:40
DaemonFCthey don't make you wait 15 minutes between downloadsJan 13 21:40
oiaohmSo is about a 60 percent chance of working 35 percent chance of not working and about a 5 percent chance of doing something odd to the web site on the other end.Jan 13 21:40
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[davidgerard] god i feel like poop. MAN FLU A GO GO. NewsTechnica will be delayed until i can write coherently. zzzz.Jan 13 21:44
DaemonFC 13 21:48
phIRCe-localTitle: Gay Teen Worried He Might Be Christian | The Onion - America's Finest News Source .::. Size~: 45.87 KBJan 13 21:48
MinceRlolJan 13 21:52
DaemonFC 13 21:53
phIRCe-localTitle: Error processing the URL:  .::. Size~: 0 KBJan 13 21:53
DaemonFChmmm, my rewrite of "Ubuntu" on Uncyclopedia has been refined a little by the communityJan 13 21:55
DaemonFC 13 21:55
phIRCe-localTitle: Ubuntu - Uncyclopedia, the content-free encyclopedia .::. Size~: 54.41 KBJan 13 21:55
DaemonFCbut most of it remains intact :)Jan 13 21:55
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FurnaceBoyschestowitz: did you read Monbiot on Avatar?Jan 13 22:20
DaemonFCNetflix is coming to WiiJan 13 22:22
DaemonFC$8.99 a month for unlimited movies and tv shows it saysJan 13 22:23
DaemonFCthat sounds a lot better than Redbox evenJan 13 22:23
*DaemonFC enjoys the fruits of competitionJan 13 22:23
schestowitzIs Slashdot still news for geeks?Jan 13 22:24
schestowitzIt's advertising a monopolist again..... 13 22:24
phIRCe-localTitle: Slashdot Technology Story | What To Expect From Windows 7 SP1 .::. Size~: 150.33 KBJan 13 22:24
DaemonFCRedbox DVDs tend to be smudged, scratched, sometimes even unplayableJan 13 22:24
FurnaceBoyschestowitz: it's run banner ads for MS for yearsJan 13 22:24
FurnaceBoyschestowitz: they probably see it as Robin Hood'ingJan 13 22:25
DaemonFCyou don't find that out til you get all the way home and have to call them to get a free rental creditJan 13 22:25
FurnaceBoyschestowitz: since it's an averse market :)Jan 13 22:25
FurnaceBoyschestowitz: oh, articles on Windows -- yeah annoying.Jan 13 22:25
DaemonFCthe best things abotu Redbox are it's $1 per DVD and you can easily rip the DVD before you take it backJan 13 22:25
schestowitz*LOL* at Mr WeathermanJan 13 22:26
FurnaceBoyis there a Canadian equivalent of Netflix ?Jan 13 22:26
schestowitzFurnaceBoy: I haven'tJan 13 22:26
oiaohmMS is hoping Windows 7 SP1 kick starts sales.Jan 13 22:26
DaemonFCFurnaceBoy: They might do business in Canada, I don't knoJan 13 22:26
DaemonFC*knowJan 13 22:26
schestowitzFurnaceBoy: that's why I left /, two years agoJan 13 22:26
FurnaceBoyschestowitz: ah!Jan 13 22:27
trmancowhat is netflix?Jan 13 22:27
schestowitzI gave it a second shot this year (resolution)Jan 13 22:27
FurnaceBoyschestowitz: I took a multi-year break from /. as wellJan 13 22:27
DaemonFCoiaohm: They probably want to get SP1 out as fast as they can even if it doesn't really make the OS that much better, just for the psychological effect of "SP1 is out, I can upgrade now"Jan 13 22:27
DaemonFCjust like VistaJan 13 22:27
schestowitzDidn't work for VistaJan 13 22:27
DaemonFCWindows Server 2008 R2 is the same core components of Windows 7 RTMJan 13 22:27
DaemonFCthe RTM of Windows Server is usually SP1 of whatever the concurrent consumer WIndows is atJan 13 22:28
FurnaceBoyschestowitz: Monbiot via Jan 13 22:28
phIRCe-localTitle: Twitter / Toby Thain: "We have all become skille ... .::. Size~: 10.16 KBJan 13 22:28
FurnaceBoyschestowitz: and you may also like this: 13 22:28
DaemonFClike, there was no SP1 for Windows Server 2003 or 2008 cause they were based on Windows XP SP1 and Windows Vista SP1Jan 13 22:28
phIRCe-localTitle: 3quarksdaily .::. Size~: 32.5 KBJan 13 22:28
DaemonFCthey let the consumer version users suffer all the really awful problems and the customer experience improvement program spyware sends all that back to MicrosoftJan 13 22:29
DaemonFCthey fix it in SP1, and release Server based on thatJan 13 22:29
oiaohmThe disappear of upgrade versions is being interesting.Jan 13 22:29
DaemonFCthe fact that they only consider Windows 7 a base for an R2 release of Windows Server 2008 is funnyJan 13 22:30
schestowitzDaemonFC: funny one, that Onion pieceJan 13 22:30
DaemonFCadmitting right there that there's no major differences in Vista and 7Jan 13 22:30
schestowitzIt could also say "Islam" instead of "Christianity"Jan 13 22:31
DaemonFCyeah, I've been having those strange attractions to Leviticus that I just can't explainJan 13 22:31
DaemonFCI don't know how to tell momJan 13 22:31
DaemonFC:PJan 13 22:31
FurnaceBoyhmJan 13 22:31
FurnaceBoystart worrying when you make a Leviticus rapJan 13 22:31
schestowitzGo Google... 13 22:31
phIRCe-localTitle: Slashdot Your Rights Online Story | Has Already Lifted Censorship .::. Size~: 154.55 KBJan 13 22:31
FurnaceBoyanyone watching GOOG?Jan 13 22:32
*FurnaceBoy goes to seeJan 13 22:32
FurnaceBoyin any contest between google and the chinese govt, i have my money on the latterJan 13 22:32
FurnaceBoyafter all, not even the Dalai Freaking Lama can beat them :) so what hope has Google got :)Jan 13 22:32
schestowitzI've been out or on the phone a lot of the day. Just catching up with BN now. Any major news missed??Jan 13 22:33
*schestowitz sympathises with ChinaJan 13 22:33
oiaohmDalai Lama China goverment could not let win.  Thinking in the past his title was basically a ruler of an area.Jan 13 22:34
FurnaceBoyoiaohm: I know :(Jan 13 22:34
FurnaceBoyschestowitz: i think the key point as was raised in this chan is, Google needs to come clean about all its other censored jurisdictionsJan 13 22:34
FurnaceBoyschestowitz: to have any credibility on open-nessJan 13 22:34
oiaohmYet China did not defeat him completely either.Jan 13 22:34
schestowitzFurnaceBoy: yesJan 13 22:34
schestowitzMicrosoft tooJan 13 22:35
FurnaceBoyschestowitz: you made the point yourself iirc and it's a very important oneJan 13 22:35
oiaohmGoogle when they agreed to censorship at the time they stated why.Jan 13 22:35
schestowitz!google microsoft china censorship 'bug'Jan 13 22:35
phIRCe-local[1] - Microsoft “Bug” Results in Chinese Censorship | - Kingpin SEO ... | 13 22:35
FurnaceBoyschestowitz: well, they have zero credibility. google is like obama -- he pretends.Jan 13 22:35
phIRCe-local[2] - Microsoft and Chinese Censorship - Nicholas D. Kristof Blog ... | 13 22:35
phIRCe-local[3] - Bing Accused of Censoring Simplified Chinese Language Searches | 13 22:35
phIRCe-local[4] - Bing Censoring Chinese Search Results? Should There Be A Bing Boycott? | 13 22:35
FurnaceBoyshould there be a Bing boycott. heh. Jan 13 22:35
oiaohmMS never has stated any conditions they required to cenor for china.Jan 13 22:35
schestowitzFurnaceBoy: their Obama is Marrisa Meyer/MayerJan 13 22:36
FurnaceBoyoiaohm: MS isn't expected to pay even lip service to open-ness or "not being evil" eitherJan 13 22:36
schestowitzMicrosoft also censors apple and linuxJan 13 22:36
FurnaceBoyhahahahahhahaJan 13 22:36
FurnaceBoythat's called "fairly competing" lolzJan 13 22:36
schestowitzThey censor for competitive reasons, not the govt's competitionJan 13 22:36
oiaohmIssue for google is the conditions they have layed down were breached.  Now either by china goverment or by rouge hackers in china.  Either way China Goverment is responsable to clean it up.Jan 13 22:36
schestowitzThey should be slapped with more finesJan 13 22:36
oiaohmEven China own local search engine was hacked.Jan 13 22:37
schestowitzFurnaceBoy: Microsoft made that "X principles" document........Jan 13 22:37
schestowitzFluffJan 13 22:37
oiaohmSo there is a big cracker problem in china at moment.Jan 13 22:37
FurnaceBoyschestowitz: yesJan 13 22:37
schestowitzoiaohm: China has army of tens of thousands of greyhatsJan 13 22:37
schestowitzYou have to keep them occupiedJan 13 22:38
oiaohmIf it was army china is not going to admit it.Jan 13 22:38
schestowitz 13 22:38
phIRCe-localTitle:  Law Firm IT Director Discovers Open Source  .::. Size~: 33.41 KBJan 13 22:38
schestowitzShame it's written by the minion who attacked meJan 13 22:38
FurnaceBoyGOOG seems to be battered by this incidentJan 13 22:38
FurnaceBoyoiaohm: of course they won't admit it.Jan 13 22:39
schestowitzCredibility lossJan 13 22:39
FurnaceBoyoiaohm: why should they? they're inscrutable! and shall remain sJan 13 22:39
FurnaceBoysoJan 13 22:39
schestowitzBut Moglen warned about thisJan 13 22:39
FurnaceBoyschestowitz: do they have any??Jan 13 22:39
schestowitz2.0 nonsenseJan 13 22:39
schestowitz!google o'reilly crass tongue lashingJan 13 22:39
phIRCe-local[1] - My Tongue-Lashing from Eben Moglen - O'Reilly Radar | 13 22:39
phIRCe-local[2] - How Ann Coulter, Rush Limbaugh, Sean Hannity and Bill O'Reilly ... | 13 22:39
phIRCe-local[3] - - Clooney, O'Reilly spar over tsunami telethon - Jan 10, 2005 | 13 22:39
phIRCe-local[4] - Anatomy of a Smear | 13 22:39
oiaohmGOOG was hurt a lot worse from a lot other events.Jan 13 22:40
schestowitzMicrosoft: oh noes! this cloud thing is risky... go back to clicking attachments in Outlook.......Jan 13 22:41
schestowitz 13 22:41
phIRCe-localTitle: Big Shot: OpenShot Video Editor Version 1.0 Released - Linux Magazine Online  .::. Size~: 30.64 KBJan 13 22:41
FurnaceBoyschestowitz: :)Jan 13 22:42
oiaohmI did have a real problem recenty.Jan 13 22:42
oiaohmA ISP malfunctioned and google was not accessable.Jan 13 22:42
oiaohmWe were getting report after reports that the internet was not working.Jan 13 22:43
schestowitz 13 22:43
phIRCe-localTitle: Google threatens to leave China after attacks on activists' e-mail .::. Size~: 31.51 KBJan 13 22:43
oiaohmSeamed people had the idea that google was the complete internet.Jan 13 22:43
schestowitzIn Firefox, toolbar is GoogleJan 13 22:43
schestowitzUnless it begins with http/sJan 13 22:43
schestowitzOopsJan 13 22:44
schestowitzNot toolbarJan 13 22:44
schestowitzAddress bar, unless you use the search bar of Googlebar/s tooJan 13 22:44
schestowitzShame:,39044229,62060486,00.htm?scid=rss_z_nwJan 13 22:48
phIRCe-localTitle: Yahoo sells Zimbra to VMware : News : Business - ZDNet Asia .::. Size~: 53.25 KBJan 13 22:48
schestowitzLook what g@@gle did.... 13 22:48
phIRCe-localTitle: EtherPad source code is free, now what? [] .::. Size~: 29.71 KBJan 13 22:48
schestowitzIt's a mixed bagJan 13 22:48
schestowitzThey killed developmentJan 13 22:48
schestowitzBut liberated itJan 13 22:48
oiaohmHmmJan 13 22:48
schestowitzSOmeone needs to adopt this potential orphanJan 13 22:48
schestowitz 13 22:49
phIRCe-localTitle: HP Mini 5102 Shipping With SUSE Enterprise 11 | The VAR Guy .::. Size~: 46.6 KBJan 13 22:49
schestowitzFriedman leaving is a huge blog to SUSEJan 13 22:49
schestowitzIf Greg K-H defected like Cox, that would be massiveJan 13 22:49
oiaohmGoogle is planing to intergrate EtherPad idea with wave.Jan 13 22:49
schestowitzyesJan 13 22:49
schestowitzThat would be the obbvious reason to buy itJan 13 22:50
oiaohmYes some project die it the way of the world.Jan 13 22:50
schestowitzAnd then the open-sourcing is OK, case Wave is open sourced (free software?)Jan 13 22:50
schestowitzWhat will Wave's licence be?Jan 13 22:50
oiaohmWave is open source even the server to put up your own wave server.Jan 13 22:51
oiaohmEtherPad and Wave could not intergrate while EtherPad was closed.Jan 13 22:51
DaemonFC 13 22:51
phIRCe-localTitle: Technology News: Malware: Facebook Partners With McAfee to Chase Out the Rats It Let In .::. Size~: 66.96 KBJan 13 22:51
oiaohmGoogle does respect licences.Jan 13 22:52
DaemonFCMcAfee gets to spy on you if Facebook detects you have a virusJan 13 22:52
oiaohmAt long last.Jan 13 22:52
oiaohmBiggest problem with facebook you detect a virus on there site it somes takes them a year to take it down.Jan 13 22:53
oiaohmHopefully this Partner up sees the responce time improve.Jan 13 22:53
schestowitzif {useragent="Linux"}, then break;Jan 13 22:53
schestowitzoiaohm: "Hmm. Odd release. Something like 40% of the patches are in DRM (mostly  nouveau and radeon, both staging, so it's a bit less scary than it sounds.  But there's a noticeable i915 component too). That's all pretty unusual, afaik."Jan 13 23:00
schestowitz 13 23:00
phIRCe-localTitle: LKML: Linus Torvalds: Linux 2.6.33-rc4 .::. Size~: 35.09 KBJan 13 23:00
schestowitzis this direct rendering?Jan 13 23:00
DaemonFCGoogle stock hasn't even really been affected over the China thingJan 13 23:01
schestowitzafter amarsh04 had told me what radeonhd guys said, it could be either typeJan 13 23:01
*DaemonFC has quit ("ChatZilla 0.9.86 [SeaMonkey 2.0.2/20100104163003]")Jan 13 23:03
schestowitzmaybe GOOG is balanced by good news:Jan 13 23:04
schestowitz 13 23:04
schestowitzBong downJan 13 23:04
schestowitzSays a Microsoft partnerJan 13 23:04
phIRCe-localTitle: Microsoft Watch - Advertising & Search - Bing's Dip Could Be A Blip, Or Oncoming Trouble .::. Size~: 39.91 KBJan 13 23:04
oiaohmschestowitz: Change in the tide.Jan 13 23:04
oiaohmFor years Linux kernel saw almost no patches linked to graphics.Jan 13 23:05
oiaohmThere is even dri 2.2 coming with proper swap buffer support.Jan 13 23:08
oiaohmThat should allow wine to get rid of a stack of hacks.Jan 13 23:08
FurnaceBoy:)Jan 13 23:10
*FurnaceBoy uses radeon driver, dri, and sometimes wineJan 13 23:10
oiaohmThere is also a lot of performance work and experments going on as well with the Linux kernel.Jan 13 23:13
schestowitzoiaohm: no more adverts :-)Jan 13 23:17
schestowitzoiaohm: but is this drm in the graphics sense?Jan 13 23:18
schestowitz 13 23:18
phIRCe-localTitle: “DRM is Probably 70% of the Complication in Supporting Open Source” | Boycott Novell .::. Size~: 106.88 KBJan 13 23:18
schestowitzFurnaceBoy: 13 23:19
schestowitz 13 23:20
phIRCe-localTitle: 15 Cool and Funny Linux T-shirts | TECH SOURCE FROM BOHOL .::. Size~: 101.4 KBJan 13 23:20
schestowitzHahahaha. 13 23:21
phIRCe-localTitle: Mozilla believes in... free porn? | TuxRadar Linux .::. Size~: 15.38 KBJan 13 23:21
schestowitz"Of course if you live in Australia you will no longer be able to access the Mozilla site because of the cle[MESSAGE REDACTED]"Jan 13 23:21
oiaohmYes DRM in graphics sense. schestowitzJan 13 23:22
oiaohmschestowitz:  Direct Rendering Management.   Linux world was using that before other DRM appeared.Jan 13 23:23
oiaohmIf its Digital Rights Management in Linux kernel its call TPM.Jan 13 23:23
oiaohmTrust Protection Management.  So to Linux kernel developers there is no confusion schestowitzJan 13 23:24
schestowitz 13 23:25
phIRCe-localTitle: Automatic updates in Gentoo GNU/Linux | Zwillingssterns Weltenwald .::. Size~: 19.12 KBJan 13 23:25
schestowitzoiaohm: there was confusion in the radeonhd hackers groupJan 13 23:25
oiaohmradeonhd is not mainline kernel developers.Jan 13 23:26
schestowitzThis one will be of interest to wallclimber: 13 23:26
phIRCe-localTitle: Getting started with Scribus | Linux User .::. Size~: 30.33 KBJan 13 23:26
schestowitzMaybe I should mail it to hrJan 13 23:26
schestowitz*herJan 13 23:26
oiaohmThe rules of mainline are strict on what things are called.   Ie DRM mainline only means one thing.  Using it for Digital Right Management will get you skinned alive.Jan 13 23:27
schestowitzoiaohm: could be one dayJan 13 23:27
schestowitzIf it's free, then same treatment as nouveau...Jan 13 23:27
oiaohmNo radeonhd is offically a dead on.Jan 13 23:28
oiaohmradeon core driver has the full support of AMD.Jan 13 23:28
oiaohmon/endJan 13 23:28
oiaohmOk retype line.  No radeonhd is offically a dead end.Jan 13 23:28
schestowitz 13 23:29
phIRCe-localTitle: My favourite Linux podcast. | Open attitude. .::. Size~: 16.87 KBJan 13 23:29
schestowitzoiaohm: some said soJan 13 23:29
schestowitz 13 23:29
phIRCe-localTitle: Tegra 2 supports Ubuntu Linux « sola's blog .::. Size~: 14 KBJan 13 23:29
oiaohmIts currently tech behind the main radeon driver.Jan 13 23:29
FurnaceBoyoiaohm: I can vouch for radeon. it's the only way i can get current xorg+dri on my Radeon 1650 ProJan 13 23:30
FurnaceBoyoiaohm: ATI unfortunately don't support 2007 model cards !! already out of fglrxJan 13 23:30
*sebsebseb (n=3seb@unaffiliated/sebsebseb) has joined #boycottnovellJan 13 23:30
sebsebsebHiJan 13 23:30
oiaohmAmd support Novell to make radeonhd was while to build the driver you need NDA.Jan 13 23:30
oiaohmFurnaceBoy: that is AMD plan.Jan 13 23:30
FurnaceBoyoiaohm: i used radeonhd for a while but.. it wouldn't give me dri on xorgJan 13 23:31
oiaohmfglrx will mostly cease to exist at some point FurnaceBoyJan 13 23:31
FurnaceBoyoiaohm: right, it sucks. :|Jan 13 23:31
FurnaceBoyoiaohm: ohJan 13 23:31
FurnaceBoyoiaohm: thx for the info. seems I am on the right track with 'radeon' thenJan 13 23:31
schestowitzoiaohm: 13 23:31
phIRCe-localTitle: Modeling, Shading, Texturing, Lighting, and Compositing a Soda Can in Blender 2.49: Part 1 .::. Size~: 46.73 KBJan 13 23:31
FurnaceBoyschestowitz: blender doing soda cans, while the competition does: 13 23:32
phIRCe-localTitle: YouTube- Mudbox 2009 New rendering features .::. Size~: 120.68 KBJan 13 23:32
oiaohmEvery time the open source driver processes better support than the fglrx.  That model will get removed from the fglrx driver.  ie death by 1000 cuts FurnaceBoyJan 13 23:33
FurnaceBoyoiaohm: my model is already gone from fglrxJan 13 23:33
oiaohmDue to the way DRI2 works.  There still maybe a few closed source addons that sit in user space.Jan 13 23:33
oiaohmAfter fglrx is no more.Jan 13 23:34
FurnaceBoy:)Jan 13 23:34
FurnaceBoyoiaohm: in particular it was nice to see the video playback speedups when i moved to radeonJan 13 23:34
FurnaceBoyoiaohm: still need some flv accel to be in perfect heaven :):)Jan 13 23:35
oiaohmradeon open source driver is not fully complete yet.Jan 13 23:35
oiaohmFull galuim3d intergration has to come yet.Jan 13 23:35
FurnaceBoyis there a twitter feed for it?Jan 13 23:36
schestowitz 13 23:37
phIRCe-localTitle: Solution for SSL/TLS design weakness in sight - The H Open Source: News and Features .::. Size~: 32.13 KBJan 13 23:37
schestowitzFurnaceBoy: use PhoronixJan 13 23:37
schestowitz Jan 13 23:37
phIRCe-localTitle: [Phoronix] New EGL Gallium3D State Tracker Pushed .::. Size~: 16.14 KBJan 13 23:38
phIRCe-localTitle: [Phoronix] Gallium3D Feature Levels Plotted, Discussed .::. Size~: 15.42 KBJan 13 23:38
oiaohmBasically Linux is getting a working graphics stack.Jan 13 23:38
schestowitzhttp:// 13 23:40
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schestowitz_goblin:  nice interviewJan 13 23:50
_goblinthanksJan 13 23:50
schestowitzI've just noticed itJan 13 23:50
_goblinnice chapJan 13 23:50
schestowitzHe's still shooting clipsJan 13 23:50
schestowitz 13 23:51
schestowitz 13 23:51
phIRCe-localTitle: Star Trek to boldly go (again) • The Register .::. Size~: 28.16 KBJan 13 23:51
_goblinIve started the year well, with almost 1000 uips a day.....Jan 13 23:53
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schestowitzYou have subscribersJan 13 23:57
schestowitzI was among the first :-)Jan 13 23:57

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