| trmanco | http://infinity-infinity.com/2009/07/10-php-functions-you-probably-never-use/ | Jan 15 00:02 |
|---|---|---|
| trmanco | neat | Jan 15 00:02 |
| phIRCe-local | Title: 10 PHP functions you (probably) never use .::. Size~: 110.01 KB | Jan 15 00:02 |
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| -BNc/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] #GNU #Linux (or #Google and #IBM ) is Replacing #Microsoft http://boycottnovell.com/2010/01/14/free-software-replacing-microsoft/ | Jan 15 00:31 | |
| phIRCe-local | Title: GNU/Linux (or Google and IBM) is Replacing Microsoft | Boycott Novell .::. Size~: 91.43 KB | Jan 15 00:31 |
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| -BNc/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] When #Mono Gets Treated Similarly to #Skype (Proprietary) http://ur1.ca/jugo | Jan 15 00:32 | |
| phIRCe-local | Title: When Mono Gets Treated Similarly to Skype (Proprietary) | Boycott Novell .::. Size~: 89.29 KB | Jan 15 00:32 |
| Omar87 | schestowitz: ping | Jan 15 00:34 |
| Omar87 | Hi all. | Jan 15 00:34 |
| Omar87 | schestowitz: regarding you post here: http://tinyurl.com/y9nx6tz A friend of mine asked a question: "Could this also include MSN messenger updates?" | Jan 15 00:36 |
| phIRCe-local | Title: Microsofts Volume Licensing Service Center Still Broken; Use GNU/Linux Instead | Boycott Novell .::. Size~: 92.33 KB | Jan 15 00:36 |
| -BNc/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] How #Microsoft Removes #GNU #Linux and #OpenOffice .org from Cyber Cafés and School Clusters http://ur1.ca/jui2 | Jan 15 00:40 | |
| phIRCe-local | Title: How Microsoft Removes GNU/Linux and OpenOffice.org from Cyber Cafés and School Clusters | Boycott Novell .::. Size~: 97.18 KB | Jan 15 00:40 |
| trmanco | http://jquery14.com/day-01/jquery-14 | Jan 15 00:40 |
| phIRCe-local | Title: jQuery 1.4 Released The 14 Days of jQuery .::. Size~: 79.34 KB | Jan 15 00:40 |
| trmanco | :-) | Jan 15 00:40 |
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| schestowitz | Hi | Jan 15 00:46 |
| schestowitz | Hi, Omar87 | Jan 15 00:46 |
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| Jose_X | http://finance.yahoo.com/news/Microsofts-browser-flaw-apf-2536011561.html?x=0&sec=topStories&pos=1&asset=&ccode= | Jan 15 00:47 |
| Omar87 | schestowitz: hey | Jan 15 00:47 |
| phIRCe-local | Title: Microsoft's browser flaw exposed Google to hackers - Yahoo! Finance .::. Size~: 81.34 KB | Jan 15 00:47 |
| Jose_X | >> Microsoft says a security flaw in its Internet Explorer browser played a role in the recent computer attacks against Google and at least 20 other companies. | Jan 15 00:47 |
| Jose_X | http://finance.yahoo.com/news/Longtime-Microsoft-Exec-Bill-siliconalley-1216831466.html?x=0&.v=2 | Jan 15 00:48 |
| phIRCe-local | Title: Longtime Microsoft Exec Bill Veghte Leaves - Yahoo! Finance .::. Size~: 83.24 KB | Jan 15 00:48 |
| Omar87 | schestowitz: so what do you think? | Jan 15 00:48 |
| Jose_X | >> 19-year Microsoft executive Bill Veghte is leaving the company, seemingly to run a company. | Jan 15 00:48 |
| Jose_X | http://finance.yahoo.com/news/Bing-And-Google-Gain-Search-siliconalley-3125001503.html?x=0&.v=8 | Jan 15 00:49 |
| phIRCe-local | Title: Bing And Google Gain Search Share Again In December, Yahoo Implodes - Yahoo! Finance .::. Size~: 88.21 KB | Jan 15 00:49 |
| Jose_X | >> Microsoft's Bing continues to gain share of the search market at its partner Yahoo's expense. | Jan 15 00:49 |
| Omar87 | schestowitz: Typo here: http://tinyurl.com/yechdfe. [You might be amused by the attached picture,” said one our readers] -> [..said one *of* our readers..] | Jan 15 00:51 |
| phIRCe-local | Title: Error processing the URL: HTTP/1.0 404 Not Found .::. Size~: 0 KB | Jan 15 00:51 |
| -BNc/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] If #Microsoft Loves Miguel and #Novell , Then They Must be Good for #GNU #Linux, Right? http://ur1.ca/juj3 | Jan 15 00:52 | |
| phIRCe-local | Title: If Microsoft Loves Miguel and Novell, Then They Must be Good for GNU/Linux, Right? | Boycott Novell .::. Size~: 92.89 KB | Jan 15 00:52 |
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| Jose_X | schestowitz, i posted 3 links. not sure if they are fresh though it appears they are.. it's about microsoft/yahoo msft/google and msft losing exec | Jan 15 00:56 |
| schestowitz | Hey, Jose_X | Jan 15 01:03 |
| schestowitz | Jose_X: yes, I am writing abut tjis a the moment | Jan 15 01:03 |
| schestowitz | Omar87: thanks, hold ob | Jan 15 01:04 |
| _goblin | schestowitz: Interesting post about Novell and Icaza | Jan 15 01:04 |
| Jose_X | schestowitz, i haven't followed the ms yhoo deal closely. you wrote that bing is doing bad. i thought ms was in some way taking over yahoo search. and now the news is that yahoo is losing share to bing.. so what exactly is going on? | Jan 15 01:07 |
| Jose_X | I'll wait till you post on this again. | Jan 15 01:07 |
| Jose_X | I'm going to leave very soon. | Jan 15 01:07 |
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| schestowitz | jono: one minute.. :-) | Jan 15 01:17 |
| schestowitz | Oops | Jan 15 01:17 |
| schestowitz | Jose... | Jan 15 01:17 |
| schestowitz | He's out | Jan 15 01:17 |
| jono | schestowitz heh | Jan 15 01:17 |
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| sebsebseb | schestowitz: I am reading this, what a good article http://www.linux-mag.com/cache/7669/1.html | Jan 15 01:20 |
| phIRCe-local | Title: Desktop Linux Market Share Will Rise, Thanks to Microsoft | Linux Magazine .::. Size~: 45.55 KB | Jan 15 01:20 |
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| -BNc/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] #Chinese #Google ‘Attack’ Involves #Microsoft #Windows Flaws http://boycottnovell.com/2010/01/14/microsoft-windows-vulns-vs-goog/ | Jan 15 01:25 | |
| phIRCe-local | Title: Chinese Google Attack Involves Microsoft Windows Flaws | Boycott Novell .::. Size~: 96.11 KB | Jan 15 01:25 |
| _goblin | Quote "Recently news has been circulating around the Internet of a Linux clone of Windows. " - No there wasn't....the news out there (including my article) was a Linux distro derived from Ubuntu made to look like XP..... | Jan 15 01:30 |
| _goblin | Infact its only his article that Ive seen refer to Ymlf.OS as an XP clone. | Jan 15 01:31 |
| _goblin | Looking back at my article "It looks like XP but its derived from Ubuntu. I don't think Microsoft will be best pleased with a Gnome? replica of their GUI." ....and that was pretty typical of everyone who reported it.....what reports was this chap reading? | Jan 15 01:32 |
| _goblin | "Desktop Linux Market Share Will Rise, Thanks to Microsoft" - Pretty much a no brainer, its been rising since Vista.....and if you think about it if people in China didn't want to pay full wack for XP or Windows and MS makes piracy harder then of course they will flock to Linux...their only other choice is Mac and thats even more expensive. | Jan 15 01:34 |
| _goblin | Linux Magazine - An exercise in the bloody obvious. | Jan 15 01:34 |
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| Jose_X | http://finance.yahoo.com/news/Googles-decision-on-China-apf-3975441000.html?x=0&sec=topStories&pos=9&asset=&ccode= | Jan 15 01:47 |
| phIRCe-local | Title: Google's decision on China traces back to founders - Yahoo! Finance .::. Size~: 86.38 KB | Jan 15 01:47 |
| Jose_X | >> Although Google has thousands of shareholders, it has two classes of stock, giving Page and Brin veto power over everyone else, including the company's chief executive, Eric Schmidt. | Jan 15 01:47 |
| Jose_X | >> Brin, though, has never been completely comfortable with Google playing by the Chinese government's rules. | Jan 15 01:47 |
| Jose_X | In each of the last two years, Brin abstained from voting on shareholder proposals demanding that Google defy China's censorship policies. The symbolic act was designed to show he shared some of the concerns outlined in the measures, according to Brin. | Jan 15 01:47 |
| Jose_X | Some of Brin's misgivings can be traced to family's own experience under Communism. He was born in Moscow in 1973. | Jan 15 01:47 |
| Jose_X | >> | Jan 15 01:48 |
| Jose_X | >> By taking a stand in China, Google could win more goodwill among Internet users opposed to the Chinese government's policies. | Jan 15 01:49 |
| Jose_X | one more link, schestowitz | Jan 15 01:49 |
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| yuhong | http://boycottnovell.com/2010/01/14/microsoft-windows-vulns-vs-goog/#comment-78142 | Jan 15 01:52 |
| phIRCe-local | Title: Chinese Google Attack Involves Microsoft Windows Flaws | Boycott Novell .::. Size~: 97.81 KB | Jan 15 01:52 |
| yuhong | Just because the attack only runs on Windows doesn't mean MS is to blame. | Jan 15 01:56 |
| yuhong | MS did admit that an IE flaw was used in the attacks. | Jan 15 01:56 |
| yuhong | http://arstechnica.com/microsoft/news/2010/01/microsoft-warns-of-ie-security-flaw-used-in-google-attacks.ars | Jan 15 01:56 |
| phIRCe-local | Title: Microsoft warns of IE bug used in Chinese attacks on Google .::. Size~: 36.07 KB | Jan 15 01:56 |
| yuhong | And that indeed can be blamed on MS. | Jan 15 01:57 |
| yuhong | But if no vulnerablity was used, it is the user to blame. | Jan 15 01:58 |
| yuhong | For taking some action to execute the attack. | Jan 15 01:58 |
| yuhong | Anyone there: | Jan 15 02:01 |
| yuhong | Anyone there? | Jan 15 02:01 |
| schestowitz | But... | Jan 15 02:01 |
| schestowitz | That's where part of the problem of E-mail acccess originates | Jan 15 02:01 |
| schestowitz | I don't know if https for gmail will help | Jan 15 02:01 |
| yuhong | And it isn't just MS to blame, it is Adobe too. | Jan 15 02:02 |
| yuhong | And other browsers can be used on Windows which are not vulnerable. | Jan 15 02:02 |
| yuhong | I don't use IE often even on Windows, I always prefer Firefox or Chrome. | Jan 15 02:03 |
| yuhong | I think https for Gmail will. | Jan 15 02:04 |
| -BNc/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] “Kroes Was Quite Clueless About Software Patents and UPLS” http://boycottnovell.com/2010/01/14/brussels-coverage-upls/ via @zoobab | Jan 15 02:11 | |
| phIRCe-local | Title: “Kroes Was Quite Clueless About Software Patents and UPLS,” So the Commission Made a Microsoft Patent Deal Last Week | Boycott Novell .::. Size~: 94.75 KB | Jan 15 02:11 |
| -BNc/#boycottnovell-[anivar] RT @sivavaid: Keeping Gmail, Blogger, YouTube, docs, etc. data outside China was the essence of Google compromise over google.cn | Jan 15 02:14 | |
| schestowitz | http://paidcontent.org/article/419-ap-reportedly-close-to-new-licensing-deal-with-yahoo/ | Jan 15 02:14 |
| phIRCe-local | Title: AP Reportedly Close To New Licensing Deal With Yahoo| paidContent .::. Size~: 27.78 KB | Jan 15 02:14 |
| schestowitz | yuhong: still a WIndows issue | Jan 15 02:15 |
| schestowitz | With non-Free s/w on top | Jan 15 02:15 |
| yuhong | As I said, IE is indeed part of Windows. | Jan 15 02:15 |
| yuhong | The Adobe non-free software involved, however, was cross-platform. | Jan 15 02:15 |
| yuhong | But it is wrong to blame MS without evidence that a security hole was indeed used in their software. | Jan 15 02:17 |
| yuhong | In this case it turned out to be true, but... | Jan 15 02:17 |
| yuhong | And the security hole don't have to be a vulnerablity, you could blame MS for the stupid feature that led to the Conflicker worm. | Jan 15 02:20 |
| yuhong | And the security hole don't have to be a vulnerablity, you could blame MS for the stupid feature that helped the Conflicker worm too. | Jan 15 02:20 |
| MinceR | wow, vulnerabilities are "features" now? | Jan 15 02:22 |
| yuhong | Nope, I was talking about AutoPlay. | Jan 15 02:22 |
| MinceR | you always excuse m$ | Jan 15 02:22 |
| yuhong | I don't. | Jan 15 02:22 |
| MinceR | autoplay is a misfeature at best | Jan 15 02:22 |
| MinceR | but much closer to a vulnerability | Jan 15 02:22 |
| yuhong | And it is correct to blame MS for it. | Jan 15 02:22 |
| MinceR | then i don't see what your problem is. | Jan 15 02:23 |
| yuhong | The problem was that the evidence this article was citing was not enough. | Jan 15 02:23 |
| yuhong | http://boycottnovell.com/2010/01/14/microsoft-windows-vulns-vs-goog/#comment-78142 | Jan 15 02:24 |
| phIRCe-local | Title: Chinese Google Attack Involves Microsoft Windows Flaws | Boycott Novell .::. Size~: 98.2 KB | Jan 15 02:24 |
| yuhong | It did turned out that a security vulnerability in IE was indeed used in the attacks. | Jan 15 02:24 |
| yuhong | But blaming MS before that happened was wrong. | Jan 15 02:25 |
| yuhong | And that was my point. | Jan 15 02:25 |
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| yuhong | This article should have been cited instead: | Jan 15 02:28 |
| yuhong | http://arstechnica.com/microsoft/news/2010/01/microsoft-warns-of-ie-security-flaw-used-in-google-attacks.ars | Jan 15 02:28 |
| phIRCe-local | Title: Microsoft warns of IE bug used in Chinese attacks on Google .::. Size~: 36.04 KB | Jan 15 02:28 |
| yuhong | Get it now? | Jan 15 02:29 |
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| *schestowitz sighs | Jan 15 02:31 | |
| schestowitz | Novell is bleeding more | Jan 15 02:35 |
| schestowitz | http://m.news.com.au/ITBreakingNews/fi454239.htm | Jan 15 02:35 |
| schestowitz | http://www.zdnet.com.au/news/software/soa/Mac-Uni-cans-inferior-GroupWise-for-Gmail/0,130061733,339300353,00.htm?omnRef=1337 | Jan 15 02:35 |
| phIRCe-local | Title: News.com.au mobile .::. Size~: 10.62 KB | Jan 15 02:35 |
| phIRCe-local | Title: Mac Uni cans 'inferior' GroupWise for Gmail - News - Software - ZDNet Australia .::. Size~: 73.64 KB | Jan 15 02:35 |
| schestowitz | http://www.theaustralian.com.au/australian-it/macquarie-university-to-save-millions-with-gmail-deal/story-e6frgakx-1225818206662 http://www.itwire.com/content/view/30480/53/ | Jan 15 02:35 |
| phIRCe-local | Title: Macquarie University to save millions with Gmail deal | The Australian .::. Size~: 49.05 KB | Jan 15 02:35 |
| schestowitz | It he sucking up to RMS now (Novell)? http://ostatic.com/blog/richard-stallman-on-gpl-exceptions | Jan 15 02:36 |
| phIRCe-local | Title: Richard Stallman on GPL Exceptions .::. Size~: 36.58 KB | Jan 15 02:36 |
| schestowitz | He used a decent picture, not one of those that are against MS | Jan 15 02:37 |
| schestowitz | *RMS | Jan 15 02:37 |
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| schestowitz | http://www.againstmonopoly.org/index.php?perm=593056000000002282 | Jan 15 03:15 |
| phIRCe-local | Title: Against Monopoly .::. Size~: 23.49 KB | Jan 15 03:15 |
| schestowitz | http://politics.slashdot.org/story/10/01/14/2226219/Obama-Appointee-Sunstein-Favors-Infiltrating-Online-Groups?from=rss&utm_source=feedburner&utm_medium=feed&utm_campaign=Feed%3A+Slashdot%2Fslashdot+%28Slashdot%29 | Jan 15 03:18 |
| phIRCe-local | Title: Slashdot Politics Story | Obama Appointee Sunstein Favors Infiltrating Online Groups .::. Size~: 181.84 KB | Jan 15 03:18 |
| schestowitz | http://www.wi.mit.edu/news/archives/2010/dp_0113.html | Jan 15 03:23 |
| phIRCe-local | Title: Whitehead Institute - Chimp and human Y chromosomes evolving faster than expected .::. Size~: 32.09 KB | Jan 15 03:23 |
| -BNc/#boycottnovell-[anivar] And Having a Hot bed coffee RT @gnurag: Defeated the snooze button and saw sunrise today! | Jan 15 03:27 | |
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| -BNc/#boycottnovell-[anivar] LOL ! :-D RT @pradeepto: @anivar no, we reached office at the same time. :) | Jan 15 03:37 | |
| trmanco | "The Google Earth Plugin is currently only available on Windows and Mac OS X 10.4+." | Jan 15 03:37 |
| trmanco | :/ | Jan 15 03:37 |
| schestowitz | chrome? | Jan 15 03:38 |
| trmanco | no, in firefox | Jan 15 03:39 |
| trmanco | a google earth 3d map thing | Jan 15 03:39 |
| trmanco | http://mashable.com/2010/01/14/intel-earnings-2009/ | Jan 15 03:40 |
| phIRCe-local | Title: Tech Boom: Intels Earnings Up an Astounding 875% .::. Size~: 57.86 KB | Jan 15 03:40 |
| DaemonFC | schestowitz, The FGLRX driver is so bad that it makes Oblivion in Wine unplayable :P | Jan 15 03:45 |
| DaemonFC | it crashes unless you choose "Very Low" and then it looks like crap and has all kinds of visual distortions | Jan 15 03:45 |
| DaemonFC | trmanco, Cause Google Earth is only for Windows | Jan 15 03:46 |
| DaemonFC | there is no Linux version | Jan 15 03:46 |
| trmanco | no it's not | Jan 15 03:46 |
| trmanco | yes there is | Jan 15 03:46 |
| DaemonFC | nope | Jan 15 03:46 |
| DaemonFC | it's the Windows version running in Wine | Jan 15 03:46 |
| trmanco | I'm using one | Jan 15 03:46 |
| DaemonFC | wrapped in a DEB or RPM package | Jan 15 03:46 |
| DaemonFC | :D | Jan 15 03:46 |
| trmanco | oh | Jan 15 03:46 |
| trmanco | it can't be | Jan 15 03:46 |
| DaemonFC | there's also no Linux version of Picasa | Jan 15 03:47 |
| DaemonFC | Chrome is the only native Google software to Linux | Jan 15 03:47 |
| trmanco | it's Qt | Jan 15 03:47 |
| trmanco | you are mistaken | Jan 15 03:48 |
| DaemonFC | http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Picasa#Linux | Jan 15 03:48 |
| phIRCe-local | Title: Picasa - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia .::. Size~: 70.26 KB | Jan 15 03:48 |
| trmanco | it looked native here | Jan 15 03:48 |
| trmanco | I don't use picassa | Jan 15 03:48 |
| DaemonFC | Google is also discontinuing Picasa for Linux, citing low adoption | Jan 15 03:48 |
| DaemonFC | Google is not a Linux-friendly company | Jan 15 03:49 |
| DaemonFC | they tend to hire Windows programmers that make very Windows-centric programs that depend heavily on Win32 | Jan 15 03:49 |
| trmanco | "Starting with the version 4 beta Google Earth functions under Linux, as a native port using the Qt-toolkit. It is proprietary software specifically in order to impose Digital Rights Management[citation needed]; the Free Software Foundation consider the development of a free compatible client for Google Earth to be a High Priority Free Software Project.[34]" | Jan 15 03:49 |
| DaemonFC | they've contributed to Wine enough to where you can get most of their software running under it | Jan 15 03:50 |
| DaemonFC | ahhh | Jan 15 03:50 |
| DaemonFC | last time I used it, it was just the Windows version with it's own version of Wine bundled in to run on | Jan 15 03:50 |
| schestowitz | http://www.webpronews.com/topnews/2010/01/14/google-launches-relief-site-to-help-haiti | Jan 15 03:50 |
| phIRCe-local | Title: Google Launches Relief Site To Help Haiti | WebProNews .::. Size~: 30.21 KB | Jan 15 03:50 |
| trmanco | DaemonFC: the last time you used it was around 2005 :-P | Jan 15 03:51 |
| DaemonFC | The reason it took Google so long to port Chrome is because they made it rely so much on Windows | Jan 15 03:51 |
| schestowitz | trmanco: it's revenue that counts | Jan 15 03:51 |
| DaemonFC | even to the point of disassembling the Windows kernel | Jan 15 03:51 |
| trmanco | yes, they even used winsock | Jan 15 03:51 |
| schestowitz | Intel has meager earnings | Jan 15 03:51 |
| schestowitz | If they made 1$, they could also be up 100000000000000% or whatever | Jan 15 03:52 |
| DaemonFC | trmanco, People have criticized Mozilla software of being bloated, but it ports well | Jan 15 03:52 |
| DaemonFC | how many systems does Firefox run on, officially or unofficially? | Jan 15 03:52 |
| trmanco | many | Jan 15 03:52 |
| DaemonFC | Google has taken years just to support Mac and Linux | Jan 15 03:53 |
| trmanco | I just wish there was a Qt port of them both | Jan 15 03:53 |
| DaemonFC | Mozilla supported them on day 1, right alongside Windows | Jan 15 03:53 |
| DaemonFC | lets not forget that Firefox is pretty much exactly the same on any OS you use it on | Jan 15 03:54 |
| DaemonFC | more or less all the same extensions work, it has the same feature set | Jan 15 03:54 |
| trmanco | they need pgo on linux | Jan 15 03:54 |
| DaemonFC | Firefox is for all intents and purposes, its own operating system | Jan 15 03:55 |
| DaemonFC | you can even embed chat clients for AIM, MSN, Yahoo, etc. into it | Jan 15 03:55 |
| DaemonFC | and Chatzilla | Jan 15 03:55 |
| DaemonFC | Nintendo emulators.... | Jan 15 03:55 |
| DaemonFC | office suites | Jan 15 03:56 |
| DaemonFC | that's what scared the hell out of Microsoft over Netscape, when Netscape started talking about making the OS it ran on irrelevant | Jan 15 03:56 |
| DaemonFC | most browsers are in a race to do exactly that, while Microsoft is gearing up IE development to try to make you depend on Windows more | Jan 15 03:57 |
| DaemonFC | you'll see Microsoft try to keep features that things like Google Apps need out of Internet Explorer while they push Office Live an Windows Azure | Jan 15 03:58 |
| DaemonFC | I totally think Chrome Tab is the wrong thing to do. I think a good old fashioned "Pardon us, we noticed your browser is a pile of shit, download Chrome" would do nicely | Jan 15 04:00 |
| trmanco | some people take that as an offense | Jan 15 04:00 |
| trmanco | the notice thing | Jan 15 04:00 |
| trmanco | people who use that junk should be on the internet | Jan 15 04:01 |
| trmanco | if they like ms word so much, they should stick with it... but please don't turn on the internet or if you want to go on the internet use a decent browser | Jan 15 04:01 |
| trmanco | shouldn't* | Jan 15 04:02 |
| DaemonFC | well, I'd like to see some kind of trojan horse that breaks internet Explorer or something | Jan 15 04:02 |
| DaemonFC | that would be cool | Jan 15 04:02 |
| trmanco | lol | Jan 15 04:02 |
| trmanco | why not break the whole system | Jan 15 04:02 |
| trmanco | and net-install something else while the owner is sleeping? | Jan 15 04:02 |
| trmanco | :-P | Jan 15 04:02 |
| DaemonFC | cause most PC makers don't include a recovery disc | Jan 15 04:02 |
| DaemonFC | just fuck IE up so bad it doesn't even work, and slap a bunch of other browsers on the machine | Jan 15 04:03 |
| trmanco | that too, would be a good idea | Jan 15 04:03 |
| trmanco | well, cya, going to bed | Jan 15 04:04 |
| trmanco | 4 am here :/ | Jan 15 04:04 |
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| DaemonFC | looks like Ubuntu wants a music store | Jan 15 04:41 |
| DaemonFC | https://blueprints.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+spec/lucid-ubuntu-one-musicstore | Jan 15 04:41 |
| phIRCe-local | Title: Ubuntu One Music Store : Blueprints : Ubuntu .::. Size~: 23.72 KB | Jan 15 04:41 |
| -BNc/#boycottnovell-[ml2mst] Downloaded Ubuntu Lucid Liynx Alpha 2, wrote it on a USB thumb drive... Let the fun (bughunting) begin... ;-) | Jan 15 04:42 | |
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| DaemonFC | I can't use Lucid because FGLRX doesn't support it | Jan 15 04:53 |
| DaemonFC | it probably will within the next week, AMD revisions the driver about once a month between the 15th and 21st | Jan 15 04:53 |
| DaemonFC | would be nice if Ubuntu had a Build Service like system so I could at least slap the new GNOME packages into Karmic | Jan 15 04:54 |
| -BNc/#boycottnovell-[thistleweb] Welcome to DarkMarket – global one-stop shop for cybercrime and banking fraud | Technology | guardian.co.uk http://tinyurl.com/yc8d8nl | Jan 15 05:32 | |
| phIRCe-local | Title: Welcome to DarkMarket – global one-stop shop for cybercrime and banking fraud |Technology |guardian.co.uk .::. Size~: 79.75 KB | Jan 15 05:32 |
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| DaemonFC | "Most People Do Not Want To Pay For Online News - They Want It Free" | Jan 15 05:45 |
| DaemonFC | I commented on this: "I for one WANT to pay for online news, I hate money, I want them to take all of it so I can read the government propaganda and other assorted crap. Especially the Rupert Murdoch Fixed Noise Channel, that’s the good kind of crack, I hope he charges a lot for it. *grin*" | Jan 15 05:45 |
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| cubezzz | anyone know what magicdev does? | Jan 15 06:05 |
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| DaemonFC | http://www.ourcaucus.com/Article1.html | Jan 15 06:11 |
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| DaemonFC | http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QCqQRflUWd4&feature=player_embedded | Jan 15 06:25 |
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| cubezzz | ah, it's part of GNOME | Jan 15 06:31 |
| DaemonFC | hmmm, the Republicans aren't even going to try to fundraise toe oust Evan Bayh | Jan 15 06:34 |
| DaemonFC | :P | Jan 15 06:34 |
| DaemonFC | so it'll probably be an uncontested re-election | Jan 15 06:34 |
| DaemonFC | *to | Jan 15 06:35 |
| DaemonFC | they're nominating someone to run against him again, but those people never take more than about 30% of the vote | Jan 15 06:35 |
| DaemonFC | http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=E6FWCgbxS6I&feature=channel | Jan 15 06:50 |
| phIRCe-local | Title: YouTube- Worldwide Domination .::. Size~: 145.76 KB | Jan 15 06:50 |
| DaemonFC | rofl | Jan 15 06:50 |
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| -BNc/#boycottnovell-[anivar] RT @aslam: RT @michaelgeist: Ushahidi is mapping crisis information from Haiti. http://haiti.ushahidi.com/main (via @EllnMllr) | Jan 15 06:58 | |
| phIRCe-local | Title: Haiti .::. Size~: 47.55 KB | Jan 15 06:58 |
| *zer0c00l|work is now known as zer0c00l|away | Jan 15 07:10 | |
| -BNi/#boycottnovell-[diablod3/@diablod3] #Via releases M'Serve Nano-based 4 drive network server http://ur1.ca/juyr | Jan 15 07:21 | |
| phIRCe-local | Title: Via debuts M'Serv 2100 server with 64-bit Nano CPU -- Engadget .::. Size~: 130.77 KB | Jan 15 07:21 |
| -BNi/#boycottnovell-[diablod3/@diablod3] Obama to Pat Robertson: "... in times of amazing human suffering somebody says something that can be so utterly stupid" http://ur1.ca/juch | Jan 15 07:26 | |
| -BNi/#boycottnovell-[diablod3/@diablod3] #Microsoft knew about 0-day exploit used during #Chinese attack against #Google and did nothing http://ur1.ca/jujm | Jan 15 07:26 | |
| phIRCe-local | Title: White House criticizes evangelist's Haiti remark - Yahoo! News .::. Size~: 94.26 KB | Jan 15 07:26 |
| phIRCe-local | Title: Slashdot Technology Story | IE 0-Day Flaw Used In Chinese Attack .::. Size~: 151.68 KB | Jan 15 07:26 |
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| DaemonFC | http://www.huffingtonpost.com/huff-tv/arianna-pat-robertson-giv_b_424097.html | Jan 15 07:32 |
| phIRCe-local | Title: Huff TV: Arianna: Pat Robertson Gives Religion A Bad Name With His Disaster Comments .::. Size~: 223.85 KB | Jan 15 07:32 |
| DaemonFC | "Remember after 9/11, when he blamed 9/11 on the ACLU, and People For The American Way, and gay people. So there's a pattern here of blaming every disaster on something other than what actually happened."" | Jan 15 07:32 |
| DaemonFC | Diablo-D3: Remember that Family Guy clip where everyone on Earth was raptured other than Jerry Falwell and Pat Robertson | Jan 15 07:33 |
| DaemonFC | and they both started arguing over who could hate the rock on the ground in front of them | Jan 15 07:33 |
| DaemonFC | http://www.buzznet.com/www/search/videos/too/4881628/family-guy-rapture/ | Jan 15 07:34 |
| phIRCe-local | Title: Family Guy - The Rapture video search for too - Buzznet .::. Size~: 45.97 KB | Jan 15 07:34 |
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| DaemonFC | apparently Cartoon Network made a game with Unity | Jan 15 08:11 |
| DaemonFC | the engine that's based on Mono | Jan 15 08:12 |
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| DaemonFC | It really pisses me off when a torrent is so slow that Rapidshare is fast by comparison | Jan 15 08:42 |
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| -BNi/#boycottnovell-[sagarun/@sagarun] Boy, babies born now are going to get picked on by "Grahanuthukku poranda vaney!!" (via @sup3kiddo) | Jan 15 08:56 | |
| -BNi/#boycottnovell-[diablod3/@diablod3] Even #TheOnion hates #GlennBeck http://ur1.ca/f46v | Jan 15 08:56 | |
| phIRCe-local | Title: Victim In Fatal Car Accident Tragically Not Glenn Beck | The Onion - America's Finest News Source .::. Size~: 25.58 KB | Jan 15 08:56 |
| -BNi/#boycottnovell-[diablod3/@diablod3] Even #TheOnion hates #douchebag #GlennBeck http://ur1.ca/f46v | Jan 15 09:01 | |
| -BNi/#boycottnovell-[diablod3/@diablod3] #TheOnion continues to predict the future (this time from 2003) http://ur1.ca/jvi6 | Jan 15 09:01 | |
| phIRCe-local | Title: Victim In Fatal Car Accident Tragically Not Glenn Beck | The Onion - America's Finest News Source .::. Size~: 25.58 KB | Jan 15 09:01 |
| phIRCe-local | Title: This War Will Destabilize The Entire Mideast Region And Set Off A Global Shockwave Of Anti-Americanism vs. No it won't | The Onion - America's Finest News Source .::. Size~: 45.75 KB | Jan 15 09:01 |
| DaemonFC | Chris Pirillo gets the question "What's the difference between Windows Home and Windows Server?" | Jan 15 09:02 |
| DaemonFC | I'd say "Ohhhhhhh, about $500, give or take a thousand" | Jan 15 09:02 |
| DaemonFC | of course he went on much longer, gave a very dumbed down non-technical answer, bashed Linux, and called it a day | Jan 15 09:06 |
| DaemonFC | "No, don't use Linux!, get something from Microsoft that will set you back a couple of mortgage payments to do essentially the same thing!" | Jan 15 09:08 |
| DaemonFC | "And go pay Visible Technologies a visit too" | Jan 15 09:08 |
| -christel-[Global Notice] Hi all, it appears one of our volunteers set a network ban which were way too wide last night in an attempt to deal with the current attacks; as a result a truckload of genuine users have been banned from the network, with a misleading and unhelpful message. For more information please enable +w in your client. Apologies for the inconvenience, we'll try tidy up after them now. | Jan 15 09:08 | |
| kecskebak | What attacks were these? | Jan 15 09:09 |
| DaemonFC | kecskebak: Chris Pirillo explaining a server OS vs a desktop OS | Jan 15 09:12 |
| DaemonFC | those were not quotes, those were me making fun of what he did say | Jan 15 09:12 |
| DaemonFC | and we see that the only people making a distinction between the two really, are Microsoft and Apple | Jan 15 09:13 |
| DaemonFC | Ubuntu doesn't care if you use it as a server, and CentOS doesn't care if you make it into a desktop | Jan 15 09:13 |
| DaemonFC | *only two companies | Jan 15 09:14 |
| DaemonFC | that is | Jan 15 09:14 |
| DaemonFC | I mean there are a few niche proprietary UNIX operating systems that haven't completely died yet and are incredibly expensive, I guess | Jan 15 09:14 |
| DaemonFC | nobody gets those apart from the hardware though and nobody would want to use them as a desktop OS anyway | Jan 15 09:15 |
| kecskebak | I meant the ones -christel- talked about in that global message | Jan 15 09:15 |
| kecskebak | Has someone been spamming Freenode? | Jan 15 09:15 |
| DaemonFC | I don't know | Jan 15 09:16 |
| DaemonFC | http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DN_goSKPCaM&feature=player_embedded | Jan 15 09:29 |
| phIRCe-local | Title: YouTube- Haitians react to televangelist Pat Robertson's 'devil pact' remarks .::. Size~: 130.25 KB | Jan 15 09:30 |
| -BNc/#boycottnovell-[anivar] seems like nonfree RT @aslam: TN Govt has shared all skool text books online 4 free http://bit.ly/7OsIRJ (via @vinaysreenivasa @prathambooks | Jan 15 09:32 | |
| phIRCe-local | Title: Govt. of Tamil Nadu - Textbooks Online .::. Size~: 9.06 KB | Jan 15 09:32 |
| -BNc/#boycottnovell-[anivar] bangalore looked lk a hartal day. Hotels & shops closed . /me 2 8 & still alive. RT @gkjohn: I'm eating during the #eclipse. Will I die? | Jan 15 09:34 | |
| -BNi/#boycottnovell-[diablod3/@diablod3] #Apple co-founder Steve Wozniak likes Nezus One over iPhone... wait, what? http://ur1.ca/jvjw #google | Jan 15 09:41 | |
| phIRCe-local | Title: Apple Co-Founder Steve Wozniak's Favorite Gadget? The Google Phone - Steve Wozniak - Gizmodo .::. Size~: 62.78 KB | Jan 15 09:42 |
| -BNi/#boycottnovell-[diablod3/@diablod3] #GNUstep looks native on Windows... upcoming #Mono killer? http://ur1.ca/jvk3 | Jan 15 09:46 | |
| phIRCe-local | Title: Heron's Perch: More Windows stuff... .::. Size~: 72.68 KB | Jan 15 09:46 |
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| schestowitz | http://www.theregister.co.uk/2010/01/15/cybersitter_law_firm_attack/ | Jan 15 09:57 |
| phIRCe-local | Title: Cyber attack hits law firm that sued China • The Register .::. Size~: 27.41 KB | Jan 15 09:57 |
| schestowitz | http://www.nbcconnecticut.com/entertainment/celebrity/NATL-Brad-and-Angelina-Donate-1-Million-to-Haiti-Relief-81396792.html | Jan 15 10:00 |
| phIRCe-local | Title: Brad and Angelina Donate $1M as Celebs Urge Haiti Relief | NBC Connecticut .::. Size~: 371.83 KB | Jan 15 10:00 |
| -BNi/#boycottnovell-[diablod3/@diablod3] GlennBeckRapedAndMurderedAYoungGirlIn1990.com won their dispute with #douchebag #GlennBeck http://ur1.ca/jvkx | Jan 15 10:01 | |
| phIRCe-local | Title: DidGlennBeckRapeAndMurderAYoungGirlIn1990.com: Home Page .::. Size~: 16.54 KB | Jan 15 10:03 |
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| Adus | I'm back, miss me? | Jan 15 10:04 |
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| schestowitz | http://stackoverflow.com/questions/1995113/strangest-language-feature | Jan 15 10:07 |
| phIRCe-local | Title: Strangest language feature - Stack Overflow .::. Size~: 202.73 KB | Jan 15 10:07 |
| schestowitz | Adus: http://mpwoodward.posterous.com/defining-the-contours-of-freedom-free-softwar | Jan 15 10:10 |
| phIRCe-local | Title: "Defining the contours of freedom" - Free Software Foundation - Matt Woodward's posterous .::. Size~: 20.67 KB | Jan 15 10:10 |
| Adus | I don't even need to watch that to know I disagree :p | Jan 15 10:10 |
| schestowitz | It helps to know what Lessig thinks, no? | Jan 15 10:11 |
| schestowitz | Be open minded. I am. | Jan 15 10:11 |
| schestowitz | It's when those to whom you try to listen attack you (lawsuits, smears, dumping) to it gets harder to listen. Did the FSF attack your livelihood? | Jan 15 10:12 |
| -BNc/#boycottnovell-[popey] Watched #carpool with @bobbyllew interviewing @bengoldacre. Left me wanting more. | Jan 15 10:13 | |
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| schestowitz | http://www.groklaw.net/article.php?story=20100108114314405 | Jan 15 10:14 |
| phIRCe-local | Title: Groklaw - On Selling Exceptions to the GNU GPL - Stallman Clarifies .::. Size~: 73.1 KB | Jan 15 10:14 |
| Adus | schestowitz: I don't hold the FSF in high enough regard to let their actions worry me to be perfectly honest. | Jan 15 10:14 |
| cubezzz | old | Jan 15 10:14 |
| Adus | They are somewhat like an annoying fly. | Jan 15 10:15 |
| schestowitz | Solidarity is not an insect :-) | Jan 15 10:16 |
| schestowitz | cubezzz: yes, I am | Jan 15 10:16 |
| cubezzz | you must be really bored Adus | Jan 15 10:17 |
| DaemonFC | schestowitz: I see what oiaohm meant about the RadeonHD taking a beating due to bad OpenGL support | Jan 15 10:17 |
| Adus | I'd rather eat my own arm than buy an ATI Video Card :p | Jan 15 10:17 |
| DaemonFC | the card only supports 2.1, which means if the game uses more extensions, they all get to run on the CPU | Jan 15 10:17 |
| DaemonFC | so in a lot of ways, I might be better off using my old Geforce card | Jan 15 10:18 |
| *DaemonFC bangs head on desk | Jan 15 10:18 | |
| schestowitz | Adus: doesn't work well on your Linux box? | Jan 15 10:18 |
| Adus | ATI cards have always had really bad OpenGL support. Their D3D support is slightly better, but they still don't implement everything. In general, their drivers are far sub-standard compared to nvidia. | Jan 15 10:18 |
| *schestowitz just needs multi-head | Jan 15 10:19 | |
| Adus | I don't have a Linux box schestowitz. I do have an OpenBSD Box though :p | Jan 15 10:19 |
| schestowitz | Did you have a chance to try out kde4? | Jan 15 10:19 |
| schestowitz | Have a go with Fedora 12. It's fun. | Jan 15 10:19 |
| schestowitz | Set up a second partition (or third or fourth) | Jan 15 10:20 |
| Adus | No, I don't have a desktop environment on it. I maintain a network library in my spare time, which has *nix support, I use that box to test it :p | Jan 15 10:20 |
| Adus | So just need command line | Jan 15 10:20 |
| schestowitz | Fedora 12 is free try. ONLY TODAY! | Jan 15 10:20 |
| Adus | I have no real interest of running anything else on my desktop. I'm happy with 7 x64 thanks | Jan 15 10:21 |
| schestowitz | http://www.techworld.com.au/article/332600/yahoo_reportedly_hit_by_china_hackers?fp=2&fpid=1&rid=1 | Jan 15 10:21 |
| phIRCe-local | Title: Yahoo reportedly hit by China hackers - China, Google, Yahoo, zero day exploit - Techworld .::. Size~: 48.83 KB | Jan 15 10:21 |
| schestowitz | Adus: you don't know what you're missin'! :-) :-) | Jan 15 10:21 |
| schestowitz | GNUgle gains based on more surveys: http://www.techworld.com.au/article/332586/google_surges_bing_yahoo_slip_search_market?fp=2&fpid=1&rid=1 | Jan 15 10:22 |
| phIRCe-local | Title: Google surges; Bing, Yahoo slip in search market - bing, Google, search engines, Yahoo - Techworld .::. Size~: 49.67 KB | Jan 15 10:22 |
| DaemonFC | I didn't figure the Oblivion problems with this card were Wine related as it worked just find on my Geforce | Jan 15 10:22 |
| schestowitz | Now comScore and HitWise agree with Neisen. | Jan 15 10:22 |
| Adus | I did run Linux, once upon a time. | Jan 15 10:23 |
| schestowitz | That's US market | Jan 15 10:23 |
| schestowitz | Bong is the fail [sic]. 3% market share only. | Jan 15 10:23 |
| schestowitz | Adus: which distro? | Jan 15 10:23 |
| Adus | Then I turned all evil and started working for big companies. Eidos, Codemasters, EA, Microsoft. | Jan 15 10:23 |
| Adus | and I stopped | Jan 15 10:23 |
| Adus | Slackware, this was years and years aog though | Jan 15 10:23 |
| schestowitz | Yeah, different days | Jan 15 10:23 |
| schestowitz | I remember old Red Hat and KDE 2 | Jan 15 10:24 |
| schestowitz | When it was new | Jan 15 10:24 |
| Adus | I remember waiting about 12 hours to Gentoo to compile once :p | Jan 15 10:24 |
| schestowitz | I had transluent windows decorations even back then | Jan 15 10:24 |
| schestowitz | Adus: Gentoo is not for the faint-hearted | Jan 15 10:24 |
| schestowitz | Try Mandriva | Jan 15 10:24 |
| schestowitz | 20 minutes to set up, living happily thereafter | Jan 15 10:25 |
| Adus | schestowitz: I just said, I'm not interested in running Linux. I'm perfectly competent of setting it up. | Jan 15 10:25 |
| Adus | When I worked at Eidos, I was the lead server programmer for an MMO, which ran on Linux servers. So, I've had my fair share of Linux usage. | Jan 15 10:25 |
| Adus | I just don't see that it's suitable for a desktop. Server, I might give you. | Jan 15 10:25 |
| schestowitz | Adus: but that's Linux /servers/ | Jan 15 10:26 |
| schestowitz | You need to know the DEs | Jan 15 10:26 |
| Diablo-D3 | xfce > * | Jan 15 10:26 |
| schestowitz | Adus: it's very suitable for many people I know | Jan 15 10:26 |
| Adus | We had our own distro of Linux, which some poor guys in the basement has to maintain :p | Jan 15 10:26 |
| Adus | had* | Jan 15 10:26 |
| Diablo-D3 | Adus: that was kinda dumb | Jan 15 10:26 |
| schestowitz | Were they poor? | Jan 15 10:26 |
| Diablo-D3 | its easier to just use debian | Jan 15 10:26 |
| schestowitz | Did they say they were "poor guys"? | Jan 15 10:26 |
| Adus | schestowitz: They looked like it. Poor IT | Jan 15 10:27 |
| schestowitz | And why did the company have a "basement"? | Jan 15 10:27 |
| cubezzz | just a bored troll | Jan 15 10:27 |
| Adus | Diablo-D3: It was really stripped down. | Jan 15 10:27 |
| schestowitz | Is it like a zoo where you keep wolves in den and Linux geeks in their mythical habitat (basement)? | Jan 15 10:27 |
| Diablo-D3 | Adus: unless they were targeting embedded devices, debian is still the right way | Jan 15 10:27 |
| schestowitz | Adus: were they badly paid? | Jan 15 10:27 |
| schestowitz | As in, "poor IT" | Jan 15 10:27 |
| Adus | Not really, it was just where Operations and IT were, in the basement :p | Jan 15 10:27 |
| Diablo-D3 | Adus: the smallest debian install is under half a gig. | Jan 15 10:27 |
| schestowitz | I tend to think of Linux people as Google employees (well paid) | Jan 15 10:27 |
| Adus | Diablo-D3: But it still has components you don't really need. | Jan 15 10:28 |
| Adus | Google offered me a job, when I came to MS, but I took this one instead, better money :p | Jan 15 10:28 |
| Diablo-D3 | Adus: no it really doesnt. It has enough to boot and run apt-get. | Jan 15 10:28 |
| schestowitz | And Windows DEVELOP~1 as some guys in pyjamas spending all day combating malware | Jan 15 10:28 |
| Diablo-D3 | Adus: it cant do anything else. | Jan 15 10:28 |
| schestowitz | [10:27] <Adus> Not really, it was just where Operations and IT were, in the basement :p | Jan 15 10:28 |
| schestowitz | All of IT? | Jan 15 10:29 |
| Adus | IT for the project I was on, yes. | Jan 15 10:29 |
| Adus | Eidos aren't all that big, well, they don't even exist anymore | Jan 15 10:29 |
| Adus | Square own them | Jan 15 10:29 |
| schestowitz | So why Linux isolated? | Jan 15 10:29 |
| schestowitz | If all IT worked in what you call a basement... | Jan 15 10:29 |
| Diablo-D3 | schestowitz: dude, are you high? | Jan 15 10:29 |
| schestowitz | [10:26] <Adus> We had our own distro of Linux, which some poor guys in the basement has to maintain :p | Jan 15 10:29 |
| Diablo-D3 | IT is always in the basement | Jan 15 10:29 |
| Adus | schestowitz: Oh, they were the server operations IT people, not normal IT | Jan 15 10:30 |
| schestowitz | Diablo-D3: I'm looooooooooow. | Jan 15 10:30 |
| schestowitz | Adus: why is it not "normal" IT? | Jan 15 10:30 |
| schestowitz | Many IT staff in the world operates servers | Jan 15 10:30 |
| Diablo-D3 | proof Roy has never worked for a real company | Jan 15 10:30 |
| *Diablo-D3 facepalms | Jan 15 10:30 | |
| schestowitz | Operation, not just development, which is related anyway | Jan 15 10:30 |
| Diablo-D3 | schestowitz: most large companies split the IT deparment in half | Jan 15 10:31 |
| schestowitz | Diablo-D3: I did actually | Jan 15 10:31 |
| schestowitz | Many | Jan 15 10:31 |
| Adus | Because normal IT are the people who clean up after artists mess up their machines and you forget your password. | Jan 15 10:31 |
| Diablo-D3 | you have the "helpdesk" and you have "actual IT" | Jan 15 10:31 |
| -BNi/#boycottnovell-[serk01/@serk01] Infographic of the Day: China's Censors Hate Free Speech and Fun http://bit.ly/5z1PmD | Jan 15 10:31 | |
| phIRCe-local | Title: Infographic of the Day: China's Censors Hate Free Speech and Fun | Design & Innovation | Fast Company .::. Size~: 39.78 KB | Jan 15 10:31 |
| Diablo-D3 | the guys in the basement babysitting servers == actual IT | Jan 15 10:31 |
| Diablo-D3 | the guys who babysit idiot artists == helpdesk | Jan 15 10:31 |
| schestowitz | Helpdesk is not IT | Jan 15 10:31 |
| Adus | At Microsoft we have 3 main IT departments that I deal with. | Jan 15 10:31 |
| schestowitz | Or not in the same sense | Jan 15 10:31 |
| Adus | IT Helpdesk, GamesIT and Security & Compliance | Jan 15 10:31 |
| schestowitz | You refer to people who run the Linux servers as not IT? | Jan 15 10:31 |
| schestowitz | How come? | Jan 15 10:31 |
| Diablo-D3 | linux server babysitters == real IT | Jan 15 10:32 |
| schestowitz | THey are not malware purgers | Jan 15 10:32 |
| Diablo-D3 | windows desktop babysitters == helpdesk | Jan 15 10:32 |
| Adus | schestowitz: I'd say they are IT Operations personally | Jan 15 10:32 |
| Adus | I agree with Diablo-D3 | Jan 15 10:32 |
| schestowitz | Adus: so IT after all | Jan 15 10:32 |
| Diablo-D3 | its that way at almost every company I know of that splits their IT departments | Jan 15 10:32 |
| Adus | The people who deal with the usual stuff, like forgotten passwords etc at Microsoft are the IT Helpdesk. GamesIT maintain our servers and stuff. | Jan 15 10:32 |
| schestowitz | Diablo-D3: ours too | Jan 15 10:32 |
| Adus | and Security & Compliance | Jan 15 10:32 |
| *oiaohm (n=oiaohm@unaffiliated/oiaohm) has joined #boycottnovell | Jan 15 10:32 | |
| schestowitz | But with us, it's research and IT | Jan 15 10:32 |
| Adus | make sure we've got all teh security updates, and no pirated software etc | Jan 15 10:33 |
| Adus | :p | Jan 15 10:33 |
| schestowitz | Where research is development | Jan 15 10:33 |
| Diablo-D3 | though, ahem | Jan 15 10:33 |
| Diablo-D3 | people without social skills and are superior specimens of humanity = IT | Jan 15 10:33 |
| schestowitz | Researchers are also programmers basically | Jan 15 10:33 |
| Diablo-D3 | the real babysitters = helpdesk | Jan 15 10:33 |
| *Diablo-D3 flexes muscles | Jan 15 10:33 | |
| schestowitz | Adus: "pirated"? | Jan 15 10:33 |
| schestowitz | Is that still going? | Jan 15 10:34 |
| schestowitz | British tunnel? | Jan 15 10:34 |
| schestowitz | They can just manufacture the boxes in the UK, no reason pirates should get to them | Jan 15 10:34 |
| oiaohm | You got my message about direct x and wine ie don't schestowitz? | Jan 15 10:34 |
| Adus | I get rude emails from S&C sometimes, wehn I don't install a security update fast enough | Jan 15 10:34 |
| Adus | "You are receiving this notification as a result of compliance reports that indicate system(s) you have administrative access to do not meet with the Microsoft corporate security policy." | Jan 15 10:35 |
| Adus | :p | Jan 15 10:35 |
| schestowitz | oiaohm: yes | Jan 15 10:35 |
| schestowitz | unlicensed copies then, not "piracy" | Jan 15 10:35 |
| cubezzz | semantics | Jan 15 10:35 |
| Adus | ^ | Jan 15 10:35 |
| schestowitz | No | Jan 15 10:35 |
| schestowitz | LAguage | Jan 15 10:35 |
| schestowitz | I can't call copyright infringer "terrorist" | Jan 15 10:35 |
| schestowitz | Cause he ain't terrorising to achieve political goals with force | Jan 15 10:36 |
| schestowitz | In fact, it's likely to have very different intent | Jan 15 10:36 |
| cubezzz | you have a point | Jan 15 10:37 |
| Adus | I dunno, I'd say the Free Software movement is pretty political. | Jan 15 10:37 |
| schestowitz | http://www.techworld.com.au/article/331146/future_open_source?fp=2&fpid=1&rid=1 | Jan 15 10:37 |
| cubezzz | ""Sometimes used, in a quasi-figurative sense, of violation | Jan 15 10:37 |
| cubezzz | of copyright; but for this, infringement is the correct | Jan 15 10:37 |
| cubezzz | and preferable term." | Jan 15 10:37 |
| phIRCe-local | Title: The future of open source - open source - Techworld .::. Size~: 52.74 KB | Jan 15 10:37 |
| schestowitz | Adus: it is | Jan 15 10:37 |
| schestowitz | Per the FSF anyway | Jan 15 10:37 |
| Diablo-D3 | Adus: software is political | Jan 15 10:37 |
| Diablo-D3 | politics comes into anything where egos run strong | Jan 15 10:37 |
| cubezzz | "1913 Webster" | Jan 15 10:37 |
| Diablo-D3 | its a natural result of letting humans do things | Jan 15 10:37 |
| Adus | No, software is a means to an end, money. :p | Jan 15 10:37 |
| schestowitz | Hehe. | Jan 15 10:37 |
| Diablo-D3 | no, software is a means to an end, happyness. | Jan 15 10:37 |
| Diablo-D3 | FOSS is not, and never will be, about money | Jan 15 10:38 |
| schestowitz | Is life's wealth (symbols of wealth) the means to an end | Jan 15 10:38 |
| schestowitz | The goal? | Jan 15 10:38 |
| schestowitz | Or the means to achieve some goal? | Jan 15 10:38 |
| Adus | Diablo-D3: Well yes, they are two different ideals. | Jan 15 10:38 |
| Adus | Polticial ideals. | Jan 15 10:38 |
| Adus | That's my point. | Jan 15 10:38 |
| Diablo-D3 | imo, FOSS is the final outcome of what people like our forefathers were working on when they created the united states. | Jan 15 10:38 |
| schestowitz | People pay for Free software | Jan 15 10:38 |
| schestowitz | If there is a programme they like they want it to work | Jan 15 10:38 |
| schestowitz | They pay to fix it | Jan 15 10:39 |
| -BNc/#boycottnovell-[zoobab] Telefonica et Orange now lobbying the European Parliament to get rid of Kroes, because she was for NetNeutrality and cheap 3G roaming | Jan 15 10:39 | |
| schestowitz | T'so has just been hired by Google | Jan 15 10:39 |
| schestowitz | THey are moving to ext4 | Jan 15 10:39 |
| schestowitz | They sent the mail to Chris Mason too | Jan 15 10:39 |
| Adus | schestowitz: yes yes, I've heard the argument before. And you might have a point, but the fact is: The vast majority of people do not pay for free software. | Jan 15 10:39 |
| schestowitz | chris.mason@oracle.com | Jan 15 10:39 |
| Diablo-D3 | ext4 is pretty decent | Jan 15 10:39 |
| schestowitz | It's as though they rejected his wares for nolw | Jan 15 10:39 |
| Diablo-D3 | its no btrfs, but its useful | Jan 15 10:39 |
| cubezzz | everyone pays for _services_ | Jan 15 10:39 |
| schestowitz | But Oracle pays for btrfs | Jan 15 10:39 |
| schestowitz | ANd it *gasp* GIVES IT AWAY! | Jan 15 10:39 |
| Adus | Oracle are great at screwing people for every penny they have. | Jan 15 10:40 |
| -BNc/#boycottnovell-[thistleweb] "hit the shelves in the run up to Christmas?" and it's a "NEWS" story in fucking JANUARY? http://tinyurl.com/ylozrxr | Jan 15 10:40 | |
| phIRCe-local | Title: X-Box moves towards 'action computing' - Channel 4 News .::. Size~: 29.92 KB | Jan 15 10:40 |
| oiaohm | Don't lie Adus | Jan 15 10:40 |
| Diablo-D3 | oracle is also good at helping open source software. | Jan 15 10:40 |
| schestowitz | So that other engs (including one from Novell) can help Oracle FS be better | Jan 15 10:40 |
| oiaohm | Oracle over the years have donated a lot of software. Adus | Jan 15 10:40 |
| cubezzz | I'd say Microsoft is the best at screwing people | Jan 15 10:40 |
| Diablo-D3 | oracle and sun both are very pro-foss | Jan 15 10:40 |
| Adus | Maybe, but have you ever had to purchase enterprise software through oracle? It costs a fortune. | Jan 15 10:40 |
| cubezzz | they have a long track record | Jan 15 10:40 |
| Diablo-D3 | Adus: yes, so? | Jan 15 10:40 |
| Diablo-D3 | no one said they didnt make closed source software. | Jan 15 10:40 |
| schestowitz | cubezzz: remember that Microsoft job ad from 2 weeks ago | Jan 15 10:40 |
| Adus | Far more than it's worth, imho. | Jan 15 10:41 |
| Diablo-D3 | Adus: well | Jan 15 10:41 |
| Diablo-D3 | depends | Jan 15 10:41 |
| Adus | Which job ad? | Jan 15 10:41 |
| schestowitz | They want to cuddle only to pretend and screw over | Jan 15 10:41 |
| oiaohm | Being open source supporting does not equal being cheap. Adus | Jan 15 10:41 |
| -BNi/#boycottnovell-[serk01/@serk01] how do we make people move to identi.ca from twitter?? | Jan 15 10:41 | |
| schestowitz | They removed that job add | Jan 15 10:41 |
| schestowitz | 404 | Jan 15 10:41 |
| Diablo-D3 | _enterprise_ software should cost a fortune... because its generally used to _make_ a fortune. | Jan 15 10:41 |
| schestowitz | "Quick! Hide the evidence" | Jan 15 10:41 |
| oiaohm | Solutions from Orcale comes in many levels. | Jan 15 10:41 |
| Diablo-D3 | its not sold to individuals generally | Jan 15 10:41 |
| Diablo-D3 | now, that said, re: the oracle db software, pg is clearly the superior. | Jan 15 10:41 |
| cubezzz | does anyone here work for Orcale? | Jan 15 10:41 |
| oiaohm | You can choose solutions from Orcale that are completely open source. Or you can choose solutions completely closed. | Jan 15 10:41 |
| Diablo-D3 | but I consider oracle and sun friends of the foss movement | Jan 15 10:42 |
| oiaohm | Orcale only gives the customers what they want. | Jan 15 10:42 |
| Diablo-D3 | I use software from both on a daily basis... open source software. | Jan 15 10:42 |
| Adus | Oracle are just down the road from here. | Jan 15 10:42 |
| Diablo-D3 | Adus: where you at? | Jan 15 10:42 |
| oiaohm | You think Orcales closed source solutions are expensive Adus | Jan 15 10:42 |
| oiaohm | You sould see some of there open source ones where you get the rights to the source code Adus | Jan 15 10:42 |
| Adus | Diablo-D3: UK. I am based at Lionhead Studios in Guildford most of the time. I also spend a lot of time at Microsoft HQ in TVP, Reading (just down the road) | Jan 15 10:43 |
| Adus | Oracle are at TVP as well | Jan 15 10:43 |
| Diablo-D3 | ahh. | Jan 15 10:43 |
| Adus | I work on the Xbox 360 project at ms | Jan 15 10:43 |
| Diablo-D3 | Adus: do remember, though, btrfs is an oracle product, and java and all the open source java related stuff is a sun product. | Jan 15 10:43 |
| Diablo-D3 | they're just as much products as anything else anyone else does | Jan 15 10:43 |
| Diablo-D3 | Sun sells glassfish support contracts, for example | Jan 15 10:44 |
| Diablo-D3 | glassfish == javaee6 stack | Jan 15 10:44 |
| Adus | This might not come as a huge surprise, but I'm not a big fan of Java :p | Jan 15 10:44 |
| cubezzz | he we go :) | Jan 15 10:45 |
| Diablo-D3 | I am, and quite a few people here are. | Jan 15 10:45 |
| cubezzz | here we go :) | Jan 15 10:45 |
| Diablo-D3 | but thats not really relevant. | Jan 15 10:45 |
| Diablo-D3 | glassfish and openjdk6 represent millions of manhours of development | Jan 15 10:45 |
| Diablo-D3 | tens or hundreds of millions of dollars in development | Jan 15 10:45 |
| Diablo-D3 | given away for free. | Jan 15 10:45 |
| Diablo-D3 | I don't see Microsoft making the same commitment to the people. | Jan 15 10:46 |
| Adus | That depends exaclty what the commitment is. | Jan 15 10:46 |
| oiaohm | At least with Orcale if you are willing to pay enough you can own the source code of the solution out right. | Jan 15 10:46 |
| oiaohm | All of it. | Jan 15 10:46 |
| oiaohm | There is nothing equal from MS. | Jan 15 10:47 |
| cubezzz | one can live without Microsoft | Jan 15 10:47 |
| Adus | Yes yes, and the world would be a better place bla bla bla. | Jan 15 10:47 |
| Adus | As if some other company (*cough* Apple/Google) wouldn't take their place :p | Jan 15 10:47 |
| oiaohm | Google taking the place of MS is not as big of threat. | Jan 15 10:48 |
| Adus | I think everyone underestimates Google. Microsoft see Google as a bigger threat than Apple for good reason. | Jan 15 10:48 |
| oiaohm | They give away the source code to lots of the solutions so making it possiable for other parties compete with them. | Jan 15 10:48 |
| DaemonFC | http://java.sun.com/javase/6/webnotes/6u18.html#bugfixes-1.6.0_18 | Jan 15 10:49 |
| phIRCe-local | Title: Java SE 6 Update 18 Release Notes. .::. Size~: 109.7 KB | Jan 15 10:49 |
| oiaohm | I don't underestimate google Adus | Jan 15 10:49 |
| DaemonFC | Sun patches 356 bugs in Java | Jan 15 10:49 |
| Diablo-D3 | if apple or google (or both) took microsoft's place... nothing of value would be lost. | Jan 15 10:49 |
| cubezzz | Google makes all it's money from Advertising, quite different from Microsoft | Jan 15 10:49 |
| oiaohm | But I am smart enough to know that google is not 100 percent control of there plaforms Adus | Jan 15 10:49 |
| *tessier__ (n=treed@216.105.40.119) has joined #boycottnovell | Jan 15 10:50 | |
| oiaohm | And there platforms are released in a way competors could be new platforms out of thiers so no strong vendor lockin. | Jan 15 10:50 |
| Adus | Microsoft is unlikely to die any time soon, so wouldn't it be better to try and work with them and find some common ground than just outright hate? :p | Jan 15 10:50 |
| oiaohm | Adus: Open Source people are just sick of MS half promises. | Jan 15 10:50 |
| oiaohm | Ie Promise not to attack Open source. Then go and attack companies that fund Open source development for working with Open source. | Jan 15 10:51 |
| tessier__ | schestowitz: Nameserver problems it seems.... | Jan 15 10:51 |
| Adus | oiaohm: But is that not a problem with the law? Not Microsoft. I'm not saying Microsoft are whiter than white, and yes, they've broken law. But the vast majority if what they do is totally legitimate and within the law | Jan 15 10:52 |
| schestowitz | tessier__: hey | Jan 15 10:52 |
| Adus | should not be campaigning for law changes | Jan 15 10:52 |
| oiaohm | If Microsoft came to a table with a true promise that is not set up to expire in future and be a possiable trap it would be a sign that Microsoft is at long last treating Open source people with some respect. | Jan 15 10:52 |
| cubezzz | just have things so Microsoft is less than 50 percent of the OS market, I could live with that | Jan 15 10:52 |
| Adus | rather than attacking ms? | Jan 15 10:52 |
| schestowitz | tessier__: thanks | Jan 15 10:52 |
| cubezzz | hopefully things will go that way | Jan 15 10:52 |
| schestowitz | copilotco.com too | Jan 15 10:52 |
| oiaohm | Adus: Its a respect issue. | Jan 15 10:52 |
| tessier__ | I see | Jan 15 10:52 |
| oiaohm | Open Source people fear MS lack of respect to them. Adus | Jan 15 10:53 |
| oiaohm | Based on every time MS has backstabed deals. Adus | Jan 15 10:53 |
| Adus | oiaohm: Quite frankly, it's business. Every other industry relentlessly pursues competition. | Jan 15 10:53 |
| schestowitz | Hehe. | Jan 15 10:53 |
| Adus | If the law allows it, why wouldn't MS do it? | Jan 15 10:53 |
| schestowitz | Adus: you too? | Jan 15 10:53 |
| oiaohm | Not true Adus | Jan 15 10:53 |
| schestowitz | Are all Microsoft employees justifying breaking the law this way? | Jan 15 10:53 |
| cubezzz | They should have just been broken up like AT&T | Jan 15 10:53 |
| Adus | schestowitz: I am not justifying breaking the law, I just said that. | Jan 15 10:54 |
| oiaohm | Cisco system, IBM and many others treat Open source with respect. Adus | Jan 15 10:54 |
| Adus | "[10:50:59] <Adus> oiaohm: But is that not a problem with the law? Not Microsoft. I'm not saying Microsoft are whiter than white, and yes, they've broken law. But the vast majority if what they do is totally legitimate and within the law" | Jan 15 10:54 |
| schestowitz | "Hey, we bribe them... cause it's just competition... and we fund wars too (SCO)...." | Jan 15 10:54 |
| oiaohm | When they make deals with Open source there is no double cross. Adus | Jan 15 10:54 |
| oiaohm | With in the law does not equal morally right Adus | Jan 15 10:54 |
| cubezzz | there was a good way to deal with Microsoft and they muffed it up | Jan 15 10:54 |
| Adus | oiaohm: Maybe not, but that's not the point. | Jan 15 10:55 |
| oiaohm | Every other major company in the computer world can do deals with open source in a way that is not back stabbing. Adus | Jan 15 10:55 |
| oiaohm | So why should MS get special treatment Adus? | Jan 15 10:55 |
| cubezzz | except SCO of course | Jan 15 10:55 |
| cubezzz | there's no good faith there | Jan 15 10:56 |
| Adus | But the fact is, those companies all have something to gain. Microsoft perceive that they have very little to gain from it. | Jan 15 10:56 |
| oiaohm | Not all cases Adus. | Jan 15 10:56 |
| oiaohm | So you are saying that MS is greedy and will never do what is good for the common good. Yep exacty why they are hated. | Jan 15 10:57 |
| Adus | There is always some reason for every action a company takes. Microsoft didn't make the Visual Studio Express editions out of the goodness of their hearts. They did it to get people using MS dev tools, which they would then take into teh workplace. | Jan 15 10:57 |
| Adus | :p | Jan 15 10:57 |
| schestowitz | tessier__: thanks!! | Jan 15 10:57 |
| Adus | who would then license VS pro, and use .NET etc | Jan 15 10:57 |
| tessier__ | Actually, seems like something ran the proxy machine out of memory and varnish died. Ugh. | Jan 15 10:57 |
| tessier__ | Bad week. Seems like everything is having really weird problems. | Jan 15 10:57 |
| tessier__ | I was just fixing another mail server which for some reason went nuts. | Jan 15 10:58 |
| oiaohm | Adus: Open source had less issues with MS when MS had made no deals with open source. So open source just treated them like competention. | Jan 15 10:58 |
| schestowitz | Nothing is as bad as in Haiti | Jan 15 10:58 |
| Adus | Anyway, meeting time for me | Jan 15 10:58 |
| Adus | I'll be back in a bit :0 | Jan 15 10:58 |
| oiaohm | The time expiring deals to make them selves look good in the press has pissed them off. Adus | Jan 15 10:58 |
| oiaohm | Ie we are good for open source but the deal is temp. Either do a proper deal or not at all. | Jan 15 10:59 |
| cubezzz | These arguments never end | Jan 15 10:59 |
| schestowitz | It's quite telling when Microsoft employees go to forums that are critical of Microsoft. It can be interpreted in all sorts of ways. | Jan 15 10:59 |
| schestowitz | It's OK to welcome discussion and interesting to see how Microsoft indoctrinates staff :-) | Jan 15 11:00 |
| cubezzz | there's always someone worse off than us schestowitz | Jan 15 11:00 |
| oiaohm | MS personal just don't get it. If you want press for being good for open source and open source not hating you. Do non expiring deals. | Jan 15 11:00 |
| schestowitz | The funniest I've heard from a Microsoft employee is that Bong [sic] is beating Google or something.... it's actually 3% and declining | Jan 15 11:00 |
| oiaohm | Apples deal with freetype over font rendering over font rendering was nasty but apple did not get tared and feathered with it due to open source knowning where they stand. | Jan 15 11:01 |
| oiaohm | Agreement freetype could not use the built in font hinting without a patent licence in countries where the patent licence applied. | Jan 15 11:01 |
| schestowitz | Apple is still a niche market | Jan 15 11:01 |
| schestowitz | I'm not too worried about Apple, although in the UK they are a barrier to Linux adoptiobn | Jan 15 11:02 |
| oiaohm | It generated no major annoyance from the open source world. | Jan 15 11:02 |
| oiaohm | Major thing open source wants is 100 percent sure of state for ever. | Jan 15 11:02 |
| oiaohm | Also MS people forget Open Source is once burnt and twice shy. | Jan 15 11:03 |
| oiaohm | We got burnt by patents on MP3. | Jan 15 11:03 |
| cubezzz | I think it's better to say FOSS rather than Open Source | Jan 15 11:03 |
| oiaohm | Open Source includes the comericals that do development for profit cubezzz | Jan 15 11:04 |
| oiaohm | That don't class themselves as FOSS | Jan 15 11:04 |
| cubezzz | yes, and FOSS includes both groups | Jan 15 11:04 |
| cubezzz | ok | Jan 15 11:04 |
| cubezzz | or not :) | Jan 15 11:05 |
| cubezzz | I'm just trying to think of an all-inclusive term | Jan 15 11:05 |
| oiaohm | Open Source is just the wrapper that for sure includes everyone. | Jan 15 11:05 |
| schestowitz | [11:04] <oiaohm> Open Source includes the comericals that do development for profit cubezzz | Jan 15 11:05 |
| schestowitz | No | Jan 15 11:05 |
| DaemonFC | oiaohm: Does ClamWin actually work well enough to bother with? | Jan 15 11:06 |
| schestowitz | That's now the distinguishing factor | Jan 15 11:06 |
| schestowitz | oiaohm: open source is not justa wrapper | Jan 15 11:06 |
| schestowitz | But words lost meaning over time if abused | Jan 15 11:06 |
| cubezzz | I think of myself as a FOSS person rather than an "Open Source" person | Jan 15 11:07 |
| cubezzz | sorry about picking nits :) | Jan 15 11:07 |
| schestowitz | The "No Fly" List Includes an 8-Year Old Boy http://www.tsa.gov/approach/mythbusters/8yo_noflylist.shtm | Jan 15 11:07 |
| phIRCe-local | Title: TSA: The "No Fly" List Includes an 8-Year Old Boy .::. Size~: 8.89 KB | Jan 15 11:07 |
| oiaohm | DaemonFC: Clamav engine in clean ups of machines can be useful as most anti-anti-viruses don't target it. DaemonFC | Jan 15 11:07 |
| tessier__ | The Baby Bomber | Jan 15 11:07 |
| schestowitz | The Transportation Security Administration, under scrutiny after last month’s bombing attempt, has on its Web site a “mythbuster” that tries to reassure the public. | Jan 15 11:08 |
| oiaohm | Ie DaemonFC it depends what you are doing if clamwin or clamav is any use. | Jan 15 11:08 |
| schestowitz | http://www.nytimes.com/2010/01/14/nyregion/14watchlist.html?sudsredirect=true | Jan 15 11:08 |
| phIRCe-local | Title: Mikey Hicks, 8, Can’t Get Off U.S. Terror Watch List - NYTimes.com .::. Size~: 54.68 KB | Jan 15 11:08 |
| *DaemonFC has quit (Remote closed the connection) | Jan 15 11:08 | |
| schestowitz | He looks sooooo scary | Jan 15 11:08 |
| *DaemonFC (n=chatzill@c-69-245-224-113.hsd1.in.comcast.net) has joined #boycottnovell | Jan 15 11:08 | |
| schestowitz | Those tinted glasses, they say he's an undercover agent | Jan 15 11:09 |
| oiaohm | http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Open_Source_Definition I know wrapper is the wrong word I should have used criteria. | Jan 15 11:10 |
| phIRCe-local | Title: Open Source Definition - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia .::. Size~: 26.55 KB | Jan 15 11:10 |
| schestowitz | "My fear—for Google and for us—is that the reason they know it's the Chinese government behind these attacks is because Google gave them the key." —Douglas Rushkoff, in the Daily Beast. http://www.boingboing.net/2010/01/14/china-the-great-goog.html | Jan 15 11:10 |
| phIRCe-local | Title: China: The Great Google Coverup? Boing Boing .::. Size~: 49.25 KB | Jan 15 11:10 |
| oiaohm | http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Free_Software_Definition TPM systems like used in TIVO and the like don't fit into Free Software Definition | Jan 15 11:11 |
| phIRCe-local | Title: The Free Software Definition - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia .::. Size~: 44.47 KB | Jan 15 11:11 |
| oiaohm | FOSS cuts out a percentage of Open Source developers for devices. Even that the source code to the devices is open but you cannot alter the firmware yourself. | Jan 15 11:12 |
| DaemonFC | Moonlight 2.0 still fails to run the Stargate Universe photosynth site | Jan 15 11:13 |
| schestowitz | photosynth has lInus roots | Jan 15 11:15 |
| schestowitz | It ran on Ubuntu | Jan 15 11:15 |
| schestowitz | Then Microsoft ruined it | Jan 15 11:15 |
| schestowitz | As it always does when buying s/t | Jan 15 11:15 |
| DaemonFC | they kept raving about how only Silverlight could do this and all that | Jan 15 11:15 |
| DaemonFC | the SGU guys, like the director | Jan 15 11:16 |
| Adus | Back | Jan 15 11:17 |
| schestowitz | Silver Lie failed | Jan 15 11:17 |
| DaemonFC | which I'm not all that technical, but I'm sure they could have put together something just as good with Flash | Jan 15 11:17 |
| schestowitz | Many years later and several version it's still scarce | Jan 15 11:17 |
| Adus | Was a quick meeting, no further plans for world domination yet. | Jan 15 11:17 |
| schestowitz | They were hoping to make Flash more extinct | Jan 15 11:17 |
| schestowitz | And Soapbox dies | Jan 15 11:17 |
| DaemonFC | schestowitz: It's odd that Silverlight hasn't caught on | Jan 15 11:17 |
| schestowitz | Adus: you do gaming for Microsoft, that's rather benign | Jan 15 11:17 |
| DaemonFC | I mean what with MS supporting the only two platforms a lot of web developers care about | Jan 15 11:17 |
| DaemonFC | the fact that they weren't even charging licensing | Jan 15 11:18 |
| Adus | schestowitz: So, Xbox LIVE! Isn't evil? :p | Jan 15 11:18 |
| schestowitz | They try to use Miguel/Novell to promote it now | Jan 15 11:18 |
| DaemonFC | I mean I'm not saying that it catching on would be good for you and me, I'm saying I'm surprised that it did not | Jan 15 11:18 |
| schestowitz | Nothing else has worked | Jan 15 11:18 |
| schestowitz | So in mid-2007 they decided to no longer totally block Linux | Jan 15 11:18 |
| schestowitz | They gave it a Trijan patent horse instead | Jan 15 11:19 |
| schestowitz | Adus: as a Linux user, I'm indifferent to it | Jan 15 11:19 |
| schestowitz | It doesn't actually attack my preferences | Jan 15 11:19 |
| DaemonFC | If they want it to spread, they should irrevocably give a free license and patent indemnity to anyone who wants to implement Silverlight or .Net | Jan 15 11:19 |
| DaemonFC | they'd never do that though | Jan 15 11:19 |
| schestowitz | It also helped drain Microsoft's coffers, so the more, the merrier | Jan 15 11:19 |
| schestowitz | There might not be a "next" Xbox | Jan 15 11:19 |
| Adus | There will be. | Jan 15 11:20 |
| schestowitz | Ask DaemonFC | Jan 15 11:20 |
| oiaohm | That is making out that MS wants compadiblity with everyone else DaemonFC | Jan 15 11:20 |
| DaemonFC | XBOX 360 has bloodied them worse than the damned PS3 and the Wii put together | Jan 15 11:20 |
| Adus | because overall schestowitz, IEB make money. | Jan 15 11:20 |
| schestowitz | Articles from the Guardian and another UK magazine say there might not be | Jan 15 11:20 |
| schestowitz | Adus: Microsoft loses money on these things and it has not much money left | Jan 15 11:20 |
| schestowitz | Microsoft is in deflation stage, firing and reducing budgets | Jan 15 11:21 |
| DaemonFC | Microsoft has been running at a lott nearly every month a Halo game hasn't come out | Jan 15 11:21 |
| schestowitz | I have no doubt in my mind you don't know this yet | Jan 15 11:21 |
| DaemonFC | why do you think they released ODST so fat? | Jan 15 11:21 |
| DaemonFC | *loss | Jan 15 11:21 |
| Adus | schestowitz: Overall, IEB make money. | Jan 15 11:21 |
| DaemonFC | *fast | Jan 15 11:21 |
| DaemonFC | :P | Jan 15 11:21 |
| oiaohm | Big thing is one after XBOX 360 will have to compete with PC's embed in screens. | Jan 15 11:21 |
| DaemonFC | The XBOX is like this cursed thing they can't put down Adus | Jan 15 11:21 |
| DaemonFC | it's hilarious | Jan 15 11:22 |
| schestowitz | oiaohm: there's Android in TVs now | Jan 15 11:22 |
| Adus | DaemonFC: I'm sorry, but that's not true. You really have no idea what you're talking about :) | Jan 15 11:22 |
| schestowitz | CES 2010 showed some | Jan 15 11:22 |
| oiaohm | Main reason a PC TV setup. is cheaper than most digital tv recorders + tv. | Jan 15 11:22 |
| schestowitz | Adus: you do. Microsoft tells you 100% ruth. | Jan 15 11:22 |
| schestowitz | *truth | Jan 15 11:22 |
| oiaohm | Then with items like Linux's embeding in screens Adus | Jan 15 11:22 |
| DaemonFC | look how many millions of dollars they've spent trying to keep it going beyond not making a profit | Jan 15 11:22 |
| schestowitz | Microsoft is the Ministry of Truth. | Jan 15 11:22 |
| DaemonFC | that is called a loss | Jan 15 11:22 |
| oiaohm | The idea of a independant box for gaming could become a thing of the past Adus | Jan 15 11:22 |
| Adus | No one denies the Xbox itself has lost money, but overall IEB makes money. | Jan 15 11:23 |
| schestowitz | Games will be fine, Adus | Jan 15 11:23 |
| DaemonFC | they may not discontinue it, they might release a third XBOX | Jan 15 11:23 |
| schestowitz | Without Xbox you can build for another platform | Jan 15 11:23 |
| DaemonFC | but it's not because they're making a fortune | Jan 15 11:23 |
| schestowitz | Just get rid of the DX | Jan 15 11:23 |
| oiaohm | Lets look at the consoles truthfully. | Jan 15 11:23 |
| schestowitz | Microsoft uses Xbox to fight OpenGL | Jan 15 11:23 |
| DaemonFC | it's because they're trying to fight Sony and Nintendo with area denial tactics | Jan 15 11:23 |
| DaemonFC | no matter the price | Jan 15 11:23 |
| oiaohm | What did the first ones have in common with a PC trully what did the first console have in common. | Jan 15 11:23 |
| schestowitz | That's why it's willing to lose so much, among other reasons | Jan 15 11:23 |
| Adus | and because overall it makes money :p | Jan 15 11:24 |
| DaemonFC | schestowitz: You remember Zap Brannigan from Futurama right? | Jan 15 11:24 |
| Adus | Through XBL and MGS. | Jan 15 11:24 |
| oiaohm | Then you look at common day consoles. | Jan 15 11:24 |
| schestowitz | "They [Microsoft] have the deepest of pockets, unlimited ambition, and they are willing to lose money for years and years just to make sure that you don't make any money, either. And they are mean, REALLY mean." -Robert X. Cringely | Jan 15 11:24 |
| schestowitz | Adus: it doesn't | Jan 15 11:24 |
| DaemonFC | remember him explaining how he defeated the enemy army of robots by sending in his soldiers to be killed | Jan 15 11:24 |
| DaemonFC | til the preset kill limit was reached | Jan 15 11:24 |
| schestowitz | It has too much to make up for | Jan 15 11:24 |
| oiaohm | Adus: serounly what is the difference between a Xbox 360 or a PC doing screen really other than TPM locking users out of using what ever they like. | Jan 15 11:25 |
| DaemonFC | that's what XBOX reminds me of | Jan 15 11:25 |
| DaemonFC | Microsoft sees every XBOX that's sold as one PS3 or Wii that didn't | Jan 15 11:25 |
| oiaohm | Ie the distance between PC and Console has closed up far too much. | Jan 15 11:25 |
| schestowitz | http://blogs.sun.com/GullFOSS/entry/new_openoffice_org_3_21 | Jan 15 11:25 |
| phIRCe-local | Title: New: OpenOffice.org 3.2.0 Release Candidate 2 (build OOO320_m9) available - GullFOSS .::. Size~: 54.92 KB | Jan 15 11:25 |
| DaemonFC | that's the chips they're playing | Jan 15 11:26 |
| schestowitz | consoles are computers | Jan 15 11:26 |
| schestowitz | Phones are INCREASINGLY computers | Jan 15 11:26 |
| Adus | Anyway, what you guys say is not only factually inaccurate, it's plain wrong. There will be another Xbox | Jan 15 11:26 |
| schestowitz | They even run games | Jan 15 11:26 |
| Adus | and before that, we have Natal | Jan 15 11:26 |
| schestowitz | Microsoft can't allow too many non-Microsoft computers out there | Jan 15 11:26 |
| DaemonFC | the Wii ripoff? | Jan 15 11:26 |
| schestowitz | But it's losing this battle | Jan 15 11:26 |
| DaemonFC | that's all Microsoft even does | Jan 15 11:26 |
| oiaohm | Even if there is Adus | Jan 15 11:26 |
| schestowitz | ANdroid and Apple have over 100,000 apps already | Jan 15 11:26 |
| DaemonFC | You want to know what will be in a Microsoft product in 3-5 years, look at their competitors products now | Jan 15 11:27 |
| oiaohm | How are you going to compete if TV's build gaming in and other features like a Xbox. Adus | Jan 15 11:27 |
| schestowitz | Microsoft is a minority among computers | Jan 15 11:27 |
| schestowitz | Been for a long time | Jan 15 11:27 |
| schestowitz | 4 billion embedded devices in 2006 | Jan 15 11:27 |
| DaemonFC | the only things that end up in a Microsoft product are what their competition already did several years ago | Jan 15 11:27 |
| schestowitz | And make smarter over time | Jan 15 11:27 |
| Adus | oiaohm: But they are not chasing the same market Microsoft and Sony are. | Jan 15 11:27 |
| DaemonFC | there's nothing original behind any of it | Jan 15 11:27 |
| schestowitz | Web browsing, office suites, etc. | Jan 15 11:27 |
| oiaohm | Android in TV's means Android games could be in TV's. | Jan 15 11:27 |
| schestowitz | Like EVO | Jan 15 11:28 |
| Adus | oiaohm: But they are not going after the same market the Xbox 360 and PS3 do :p | Jan 15 11:28 |
| oiaohm | Adus: what makes you 100 percent sure they will not go after the same market. | Jan 15 11:28 |
| DaemonFC | Adus: The only originality Microsoft has is in trying to find new ways to scalp you | Jan 15 11:28 |
| Adus | oiaohm: because it costs an insane amount of money, and no one is going to enter the console war now :p | Jan 15 11:28 |
| DaemonFC | their products are all inferior clones of something else | Jan 15 11:28 |
| oiaohm | High end tv's ship with Wii's and PS3 to sell them to customers Adus | Jan 15 11:28 |
| schestowitz | PS3 is stronger anyway | Jan 15 11:28 |
| schestowitz | Microsoft ripped Sony off | Jan 15 11:28 |
| schestowitz | Sony and IBM worked on the Cell | Jan 15 11:28 |
| oiaohm | Adus: cost is low to enter the console war. | Jan 15 11:28 |
| schestowitz | Microsoft clang on to coattails | Jan 15 11:29 |
| Adus | schestowitz: Since when? We have a larger install base and a better game-to-consoel ratio than Sony | Jan 15 11:29 |
| schestowitz | Then 'stole' their work | Jan 15 11:29 |
| DaemonFC | Microsoft's inability to come up with anything new goes all the way back to buying QDOS, the CP/M86 ripoff | Jan 15 11:29 |
| Adus | How can you claim the PS3 is stronger? :p | Jan 15 11:29 |
| schestowitz | It was in the WSJ IIRC | Jan 15 11:29 |
| oiaohm | That is if your console is standard internally Adus | Jan 15 11:29 |
| schestowitz | PS3 also doesn't cook well | Jan 15 11:29 |
| Adus | oiaohm: But no one wants to build anything like that the PS3 or Xbox 360. It does cost a lot of money and it's not worth it. | Jan 15 11:29 |
| schestowitz | It stays functional | Jan 15 11:30 |
| DaemonFC | Windows 7 is like a bad Mac ripoff complete with a back catalog of 300,000 pieces of malware | Jan 15 11:30 |
| DaemonFC | :) | Jan 15 11:30 |
| schestowitz | Microsoft imitates things, poorly, as usual | Jan 15 11:30 |
| oiaohm | Adus: what do you think google native code in webbrower combind with opengl support is about. | Jan 15 11:30 |
| schestowitz | DaemonFC: not 2 million+? | Jan 15 11:30 |
| DaemonFC | schestowitz: Well, you have to account for the fact that older viruses, like all compiled programs, eventually won't run on the new version of Windows | Jan 15 11:31 |
| -BNi/#boycottnovell-[serk01/@serk01] I really like thunderbird 3.0's tabbed browsing and search functionality | Jan 15 11:31 | |
| Adus | oiaohm: We'll see ;). The fact of the matter is, Wii has pretty much raped the competition in this cycle. but Microsoft and Sony are in a strong position to take advantage of the tail-out of this generation and entering the next generation | Jan 15 11:31 |
| oiaohm | It costs a lot of money to build a lock down box from non standard parts Adus | Jan 15 11:31 |
| DaemonFC | *shrugs* | Jan 15 11:31 |
| Adus | despite what you think you know | Jan 15 11:31 |
| Adus | because I do know :p | Jan 15 11:31 |
| oiaohm | Adus: forget about non standard parts and the price to build something like a PS3 or a Xbox360 is way cheeper. | Jan 15 11:31 |
| oiaohm | Adus: You are making the same mistake you made with the wii. | Jan 15 11:32 |
| oiaohm | Wii was cheep and fun. So it won. | Jan 15 11:32 |
| oiaohm | It not powerful Adus | Jan 15 11:32 |
| DaemonFC | Adus: I don't think that Microsoft will have a reliable console. Number 1: They have Foxconn building them. Number 2: They tell Foxconn to cut corners. | Jan 15 11:33 |
| oiaohm | Console battle does not need to be a something supper powerful to cause the console makers lot of problems. | Jan 15 11:33 |
| oiaohm | If TV's end up with lots of cheap games that are fun why will people waste money on consoles. | Jan 15 11:33 |
| oiaohm | That is the question you have to answer Adus | Jan 15 11:34 |
| DaemonFC | that ought to be alarming on either count alone | Jan 15 11:34 |
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| Adus | oiaohm: What's your point? So the Wii won, but it targets a different market to the PS3 and 360. | Jan 15 11:35 |
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| DaemonFC | So? oiaohm, it's like saying you're necessarily going to love the car with the godawful right whose gas tank blows up regularly | Jan 15 11:35 |
| Adus | a market Microsoft are unlikely to penetrate with any great success. | Jan 15 11:35 |
| DaemonFC | to say that XBOX is better than Wii, that is | Jan 15 11:35 |
| DaemonFC | it might have a great engine | Jan 15 11:35 |
| DaemonFC | but the ride is godawful and they blow up regularly | Jan 15 11:35 |
| Adus | oiaohm: But you're missing the point, to get the market we have, it does. | Jan 15 11:35 |
| Adus | Because core gamers are not satisfied with "fun games" :p | Jan 15 11:35 |
| DaemonFC | Adus: XBOX 360 lasts about 6 months on average before you have to send it in over the ring of death | Jan 15 11:35 |
| Adus | and if you truly believe there is no difference in those markets, you don't know much about the games industry. | Jan 15 11:35 |
| DaemonFC | I did it 7 times and sole my 8th one right after it got back | Jan 15 11:35 |
| DaemonFC | I want nothing more to do with Microsoft game consoles | Jan 15 11:35 |
| DaemonFC | ever | Jan 15 11:35 |
| Adus | I've had one 360 fail since it came out. | Jan 15 11:35 |
| DaemonFC | I will buy another XBOX over my rotting corpse | Jan 15 11:35 |
| oiaohm | Adus: hard core gamers are only a small percentage of the market. | Jan 15 11:35 |
| Adus | Then don't. | Jan 15 11:36 |
| DaemonFC | the damned things aren't worth a warm pitcher of piss | Jan 15 11:36 |
| Adus | oiaohm: I said "core gamers" not hardcore gamers :p | Jan 15 11:36 |
| oiaohm | Adus: Xbox's are also used a media extendors no point of the TV can do it. | Jan 15 11:36 |
| Adus | oiaohm: it's clear to me that you have no real grasp on how the games industry actuall works. | Jan 15 11:36 |
| Adus | actually* | Jan 15 11:36 |
| DaemonFC | I bet anyone $1,000 that the next thing you see Microsoft do, after they have the Wii ripodd sensor and motion controller, is start releasing exercise discs with a Microsoft not-a-balance-board(R) | Jan 15 11:37 |
| DaemonFC | *ripoff | Jan 15 11:37 |
| Adus | You also evidently don't understand what Natal is. | Jan 15 11:37 |
| DaemonFC | schestowitz: Are you ready to Ballmercize? | Jan 15 11:37 |
| DaemonFC | :) | Jan 15 11:37 |
| cubezzz | no :) | Jan 15 11:37 |
| oiaohm | Define of hard core games are different Adus | Jan 15 11:38 |
| DaemonFC | have the sweat just..................... gathering under your armpits even | Jan 15 11:38 |
| oiaohm | Most likely what you call core games are what I call hard core gamers. | Jan 15 11:38 |
| Adus | oiaohm: Core gamers are not hardcore gamers. | Jan 15 11:38 |
| DaemonFC | It's not over til the cardiologist declares you legally dead | Jan 15 11:38 |
| DaemonFC | :P | Jan 15 11:38 |
| Adus | You should do some research into the markets, and then you might understand why the Xbox and PS3 exist. | Jan 15 11:38 |
| DaemonFC | schestowitz: Grab a Ballmerboard and get ready to get ripped | Jan 15 11:39 |
| DaemonFC | :) | Jan 15 11:39 |
| DaemonFC | they should put an exercise on the disc called the Ballmer-busters | Jan 15 11:39 |
| Adus | DaemonFC: I just told you, you evidently don't understand what natal is if you forsee addons like that. | Jan 15 11:39 |
| oiaohm | What define of Core Gamers you are using. | Jan 15 11:39 |
| Adus | oiaohm: I just told you, get your hands on some actual market research and then come back to me. | Jan 15 11:40 |
| *schestowitz looks for context | Jan 15 11:40 | |
| oiaohm | I do understand why Xbox and PS3 exist. | Jan 15 11:40 |
| schestowitz | [11:31] <DaemonFC> schestowitz: Well, you have to account for the fact that older viruses, like all compiled programs, eventually won't run on the new version of Windows | Jan 15 11:40 |
| schestowitz | They say 80% still works | Jan 15 11:40 |
| DaemonFC | schestowitz: Get on the Ballmerboard and jump up and down screaming | Jan 15 11:41 |
| oiaohm | The games in on those console appeal to different gaming segments. | Jan 15 11:41 |
| schestowitz | An insecurity vendor said so, IIRC | Jan 15 11:41 |
| DaemonFC | that's a good exercise | Jan 15 11:41 |
| schestowitz | Maybe 90% | Jan 15 11:41 |
| schestowitz | And the 2ml barrier was passed some months back | Jan 15 11:41 |
| Adus | Yet you don't seem to grasp that they will continue to exist because your embedded devices won't chase that market oiaohm, because they are incapable of doing so. | Jan 15 11:41 |
| oiaohm | Lot of the console get got as gifts and the like by people so leading to them become waht you most likely call core gamers. | Jan 15 11:42 |
| DaemonFC | I'd kind of like to have one of those Macbook Pros actually, if I could get any computer I wanted for free | Jan 15 11:42 |
| DaemonFC | it might end up running Linux | Jan 15 11:42 |
| oiaohm | You cycle of source of gamers could be broken Adus | Jan 15 11:42 |
| Adus | oiaohm: That's highly unlikely, and you know it. There will always be people who want more "serious" games. | Jan 15 11:42 |
| Adus | The games market is usually split into 8 segments. | Jan 15 11:42 |
| DaemonFC | Adus: Shoot at the same Nazi in the same video game on a new system | Jan 15 11:43 |
| DaemonFC | ad infinitum | Jan 15 11:43 |
| DaemonFC | :) | Jan 15 11:43 |
| schestowitz | "Serious" = gore? | Jan 15 11:43 |
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| Adus | No, not neccesarily. | Jan 15 11:43 |
| Adus | and each segment tends to describe 3 key audience areas. | Jan 15 11:43 |
| DaemonFC | schestowitz: DOOM | Jan 15 11:43 |
| oiaohm | And each of those 8 segments can exist on one platform nothing says they cannot Adus | Jan 15 11:43 |
| DaemonFC | always popular | Jan 15 11:43 |
| schestowitz | DaemonFC: DOOM is good | Jan 15 11:43 |
| schestowitz | It's fun to play, I still have it | Jan 15 11:43 |
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| DaemonFC | schestowitz: I have them all | Jan 15 11:44 |
| DaemonFC | :D | Jan 15 11:44 |
| Adus | oiaohm: Of course not, but the reality of an embedded standard device tapping those markets is slim to non-existant, and I know you know that. | Jan 15 11:44 |
| schestowitz | It is also nostalgic | Jan 15 11:44 |
| DaemonFC | some I had to transfer to CD when my new computer had not floppy drive | Jan 15 11:44 |
| DaemonFC | Oh, I was pissed | Jan 15 11:44 |
| schestowitz | Adus: ahahaha | Jan 15 11:44 |
| oiaohm | Adus: yes. its like saying a tv can only play to one movie type fan. | Jan 15 11:44 |
| schestowitz | Silm to non-existent? | Jan 15 11:44 |
| schestowitz | Ask ARM how they sold 10 billion processors by 2008 | Jan 15 11:45 |
| oiaohm | Adus: what do you mean non existant. | Jan 15 11:45 |
| DaemonFC | Adus: There's Madworld | Jan 15 11:45 |
| Adus | DaemonFC: A game which failed both critically and commercially. | Jan 15 11:45 |
| DaemonFC | "Heh heh heh....asshole in a can!!!" | Jan 15 11:45 |
| DaemonFC | hehe | Jan 15 11:45 |
| Adus | Excelletn example. | Jan 15 11:45 |
| DaemonFC | still a good game | Jan 15 11:45 |
| oiaohm | Adus: what market does the EVO target. | Jan 15 11:45 |
| Adus | You need to look at games like | Jan 15 11:45 |
| schestowitz | I haven't heard from them in a while | Jan 15 11:45 |
| Adus | Halo, Fable, Demon Souls, Metal Gear Solid etc | Jan 15 11:46 |
| Adus | The first party titles. | Jan 15 11:46 |
| oiaohm | All Adus | Jan 15 11:46 |
| oiaohm | Just not with great titles. | Jan 15 11:46 |
| DaemonFC | Adus: If you can't beat em up, shoot em up, blow em up, or chainsaw them, it's not a game | Jan 15 11:46 |
| DaemonFC | right? :) | Jan 15 11:46 |
| Adus | and the more popular Acti and EA games. | Jan 15 11:46 |
| oiaohm | The standard coming are not just locked to embeded devices Adus | Jan 15 11:47 |
| schestowitz | I love Kong on Super Nintendo | Jan 15 11:47 |
| schestowitz | It was cute | Jan 15 11:47 |
| oiaohm | I remember when PC was king of gaming because you could play basically all classes of games. | Jan 15 11:48 |
| oiaohm | History repeats it self. | Jan 15 11:48 |
| schestowitz | http://www.fool.com/investing/high-growth/2010/01/14/this-stock-loves-the-recession.aspx | Jan 15 11:48 |
| phIRCe-local | Title: This Stock Loves the Recession (RHT) .::. Size~: 59.74 KB | Jan 15 11:48 |
| schestowitz | "The latest? The CIO of the state of California, Teri Takai, last week said in a policy letter that using open-source software has been sanctioned as "acceptable practice." Shocking, right? Open-source is typically cheaper than licensed software, and the Golden State faces a multibillion-dollar fiscal crisis. I'll be surprised if more states don't follow California's lead." | Jan 15 11:48 |
| Adus | oiaohm: Like I say, we'll see. I think you far over-estimate the potential of any standard platform and all of the research backs me up. | Jan 15 11:48 |
| Adus | Not you. | Jan 15 11:48 |
| schestowitz | Studies are like arseholes | Jan 15 11:48 |
| schestowitz | You have as many of them as people | Jan 15 11:48 |
| schestowitz | And Microsoft pays for these | Jan 15 11:49 |
| oiaohm | History backs me up. | Jan 15 11:49 |
| oiaohm | Adus: You need to answer how PC got the top gaming system for a while. | Jan 15 11:49 |
| schestowitz | There is resarch to back up anything | Jan 15 11:49 |
| schestowitz | Pay me | Jan 15 11:49 |
| schestowitz | I'll prove what you need :-) | Jan 15 11:49 |
| schestowitz | "Research........." | Jan 15 11:49 |
| Adus | schestowitz: Studies are what have allowed Microsoft to succeed so much that you hate them. | Jan 15 11:49 |
| oiaohm | to see the threat you have created sel. | Jan 15 11:49 |
| oiaohm | self. | Jan 15 11:49 |
| schestowitz | Adus: fake studies | Jan 15 11:49 |
| schestowitz | They corrupted analysts | Jan 15 11:49 |
| schestowitz | Including to attack Linux | Jan 15 11:50 |
| -BNc/#boycottnovell-[thistleweb] New Blog Post | I Wonder... | The Digital Prism http://tinyurl.com/ylnvbvw | Jan 15 11:50 | |
| phIRCe-local | Title: I Wonder... | The Digital Prism .::. Size~: 14.46 KB | Jan 15 11:50 |
| Adus | schestowitz: Which still allowed them to make insane amounts of cash | Jan 15 11:50 |
| schestowitz | Microsoft gained caused it lacked ethics | Jan 15 11:50 |
| Adus | oiaohm: The PC is a dying platform for games and has been for some time. | Jan 15 11:50 |
| oiaohm | Your research and studies have created hole in market just waiting to be filled. Adus | Jan 15 11:50 |
| oiaohm | I did not say the PC was not a dying platform. | Jan 15 11:50 |
| schestowitz | When someone goes for the balls, he/she wins the right | Jan 15 11:50 |
| schestowitz | And since the lawmakers were weak, Microsoft got away with a lot of criminal acitivity | Jan 15 11:50 |
| schestowitz | That's not competition, through | Jan 15 11:50 |
| schestowitz | *though | Jan 15 11:50 |
| oiaohm | but I said you need to study how the PC got to be top gaming platform for a while. Adus | Jan 15 11:50 |
| schestowitz | [11:50] <Adus> schestowitz: Which still allowed them to make insane amounts of cash | Jan 15 11:51 |
| schestowitz | Ah | Jan 15 11:51 |
| schestowitz | That makes it OK then | Jan 15 11:51 |
| oiaohm | You will see that you are repeating the same events that lead to the rise of the PC as an gaming platform Adus | Jan 15 11:51 |
| Adus | Well, you can't have it both ways schestowitz. Either this "fake" research as you call it, hinders the company and causes profits to fall or allows them to make money. | Jan 15 11:51 |
| oiaohm | Sega Nintendo... All split themselves off into indepentant markets. | Jan 15 11:51 |
| oiaohm | So leaving a huge gap for something unified. | Jan 15 11:51 |
| oiaohm | History repeats Adus | Jan 15 11:52 |
| Adus | oiaohm: Consumers don't want the hassle of working out whether something is compatible etc. | Jan 15 11:52 |
| Adus | PC has never been as big as the current generation of consoles | Jan 15 11:52 |
| Adus | not even close. | Jan 15 11:52 |
| Adus | The market is not the same as it was 10 years ago | Jan 15 11:52 |
| oiaohm | About time you become aware of it. Studies also told Sega and Nintendo that specialisation to case the same thing. | Jan 15 11:52 |
| oiaohm | Of course PC is too expensive these days compared to consoles. Adus | Jan 15 11:52 |
| Adus | and as I understand it, PC hardware prices are likely to rise this year. | Jan 15 11:53 |
| Adus | Due to parts shortages. | Jan 15 11:53 |
| oiaohm | I have not said other items did not screw up PC domination. | Jan 15 11:53 |
| oiaohm | Its not where the PC is now. | Jan 15 11:53 |
| oiaohm | It why it got to where it did in history. | Jan 15 11:53 |
| oiaohm | And what lead up to it. | Jan 15 11:53 |
| oiaohm | PC is not the threat this time around Adus | Jan 15 11:53 |
| oiaohm | History never normally puts the same dog back on top. | Jan 15 11:54 |
| oiaohm | The history of the PC warns you what is coming. | Jan 15 11:54 |
| Adus | oiaohm: I think you're missing the point. I agree with you, "casual" games are going to be huge and it's an area we at Microsoft Game Studios are investing heavily in. *However* there will always be a place for the core platforms, PC and "Next-Gen" Consoles. | Jan 15 11:54 |
| oiaohm | Same ideas of market segmentation causes something to happen. Adus | Jan 15 11:54 |
| oiaohm | Casual games most likely end up on the TV. | Jan 15 11:55 |
| Adus | oiaohm: Oh, I agree. | Jan 15 11:55 |
| oiaohm | Were Microsoft game studioes stuff will not work. | Jan 15 11:55 |
| Adus | I don't disagree with your suggestion about the market changing. But I think (and as I say, most analysts agree) that it will come in the form of a bigger market. | Jan 15 11:55 |
| Adus | There will still be a core market | Jan 15 11:55 |
| oiaohm | Lot less of the Casuals will turn into core. | Jan 15 11:56 |
| Adus | Which is the market the Xbox 360 caters to, and I imagine will continue to do so into the next generation. | Jan 15 11:56 |
| Adus | oiaohm: A smaller percentage, yes, but there will be more of them. | Jan 15 11:56 |
| oiaohm | Since they did not need a console to be casual. | Jan 15 11:56 |
| oiaohm | depend how good the embed ends up will depend how much room the Xbox 360 and it future forms have. | Jan 15 11:57 |
| Adus | The rise in casual games, mostly down to Apple and Nintendo has actually been a good thing for Sony and MS, because more people than ever before are turning to core gaming | Jan 15 11:57 |
| Adus | maybe a smaller chunk of the market | Jan 15 11:57 |
| schestowitz | Microsoft Gavin does an echo-article for Bach.... http://www.linuxtoday.com/news_story.php3?ltsn=2010-01-14-018-35-NW-MS-MO | Jan 15 11:57 |
| phIRCe-local | Title: Linux Today - Microsoft predicts Linux will fail mobile 'quality' test .::. Size~: 79.51 KB | Jan 15 11:57 |
| Adus | but it's a much bigger market than 10 years ago | Jan 15 11:57 |
| oiaohm | You are sounding a lot like sega before it floped Adus | Jan 15 11:57 |
| oiaohm | The market will grow yes. But the question is will you be able to hold market. | Jan 15 11:58 |
| oiaohm | History warns you about the changes better than asking people questions Adus | Jan 15 11:58 |
| Adus | oiaohm: Currently our market is still growing month-on-month and year-on-year. Until that stops, you can expect people to continue investing in those markets. | Jan 15 11:58 |
| oiaohm | I am not expecting it to stop exactly soon. | Jan 15 12:00 |
| *wallc_ (i=44e6566b@gateway/web/freenode/x-rzporfjaefekcaef) has joined #boycottnovell | Jan 15 12:00 | |
| oiaohm | 3d tv's will require over time fancier built in hardware for doing effects and the like Adus | Jan 15 12:00 |
| oiaohm | Basically all the cards of trouble are already in place if you look around Adus | Jan 15 12:01 |
| oiaohm | That could turn into very big trouble before the next version of the xbox after the xbox 360 can be released. | Jan 15 12:01 |
| oiaohm | Ie 3d is no longer just the space for the game console. | Jan 15 12:02 |
| oiaohm | Remember lot more companies due to hard times are trying to put out more powerful combind products to hold market as well. | Jan 15 12:03 |
| oiaohm | The warning signs normally appear 3 to 4 years before bad things happen if you are comparing to history. Adus | Jan 15 12:04 |
| oiaohm | CES domated by ARM chip items the warning signes was on the wall 3 years ago. | Jan 15 12:05 |
| Adus | We'll see oiaohm, | Jan 15 12:05 |
| oiaohm | At this stage you have time to respond Adus | Jan 15 12:06 |
| oiaohm | Leave it too late to respond correctly and history will just repeat running another under. | Jan 15 12:06 |
| Adus | oiaohm: I have been listening to people like you for the last 15 years spelling the doom of consoles and Microsoft, I'm still waiting | Jan 15 12:06 |
| Adus | :) | Jan 15 12:06 |
| oiaohm | Taking on more PC natures saved consoles from the first round of doom. | Jan 15 12:07 |
| oiaohm | Ie correct action saved them. | Jan 15 12:07 |
| oiaohm | This time around different set of events have setup. And a new action will be required to save the console. | Jan 15 12:08 |
| oiaohm | Now of course Doom is never for sure if the right action is taken. Adus | Jan 15 12:08 |
| oiaohm | Putting you head in the sand and not seeing what is coming will see loss. | Jan 15 12:09 |
| Adus | oiaohm: We just have a very different idea of "what is coming", and as far as I know you're far less qualified than the people I work with to know | Jan 15 12:09 |
| Adus | so forgive me if I think you're talking shit | Jan 15 12:10 |
| Adus | All the dreaded casual games market has done, and will continue to do so | Jan 15 12:10 |
| Adus | is up the core market numbers | Jan 15 12:10 |
| Adus | a bigger games market is good for everyone. | Jan 15 12:10 |
| oiaohm | Problem is your lack of history. | Jan 15 12:11 |
| Adus | as is more competition, so I welcome the new round of consoles and casual games focus, it will be interesting. | Jan 15 12:11 |
| Adus | oiaohm: The market is *vastly* different than it ever has been | Jan 15 12:11 |
| Adus | you fail to recognise that. | Jan 15 12:11 |
| oiaohm | Sega said the same thing about PC's. | Jan 15 12:11 |
| Adus | Sega were always small fish in a big pond. | Jan 15 12:11 |
| oiaohm | What says you are not. | Jan 15 12:12 |
| Adus | We have a far bigger market share than Sega ever did, and the install-base for this generation (and last) of consoles is massive. | Jan 15 12:12 |
| oiaohm | That just says you are a bigger small fish. | Jan 15 12:12 |
| Adus | That's mostly down to Sony with the PS2 and Microsoft with the Xbox. | Jan 15 12:12 |
| oiaohm | Not that you cannot be destoryed the same ways. | Jan 15 12:12 |
| Adus | Those consoles redefined console gaming. | Jan 15 12:12 |
| oiaohm | Issue is gaming could be redefined again. | Jan 15 12:13 |
| oiaohm | Nothing says who a redefine has to come from. | Jan 15 12:13 |
| Adus | I think you're missing the bigger picture here. The change which is coming is a good thing for everyone, and everyone recognises that it's coming. Don't for one second believe that MS and Sony are naive to it. But we have a market. | Jan 15 12:13 |
| Adus | That's not to say we won't enter the casual games market, which I'm sure we will. | Jan 15 12:14 |
| Adus | But consoles likethe 360 and PS3 do have a place, and will for at least another generation | Jan 15 12:14 |
| Adus | (7 years ish) | Jan 15 12:14 |
| Adus | Beyond that? Who knows. | Jan 15 12:14 |
| oiaohm | 7 years is being optimisitic. I would say 2 to 3 for sure. | Jan 15 12:14 |
| oiaohm | Past that there is too much moving to predict. | Jan 15 12:15 |
| Adus | I actually think 7 is about bang on. I expect to see a new round of consoles in 2012 or 2013 | Jan 15 12:15 |
| Adus | lasting through 2017/2018 | Jan 15 12:15 |
| Adus | beyond that is unknown. | Jan 15 12:15 |
| oiaohm | New round of consoles line up with 3d tv's with built in hardware should be a lot more in the market. | Jan 15 12:16 |
| oiaohm | That is why I don't say you have 7 years. | Jan 15 12:16 |
| Adus | I think there will be a lot market shoving and pushing for a few years. | Jan 15 12:16 |
| Adus | Companies won't agree on how to do things, there will be competition for a while etc. | Jan 15 12:17 |
| *Omar87 (n=quassel@79.173.254.16) has joined #boycottnovell | Jan 15 12:17 | |
| oiaohm | Ie pushing to sort out 3d tv stuff into a standard I am allowing the pushing and shoving for the next 2-3 | Jan 15 12:17 |
| Adus | It will take longer than that, tehre will be 2 or 3 years of R&D before anything emerges that is concrete | Jan 15 12:18 |
| oiaohm | Now if they get there backsides in order sooner I will be supprised but that would mean problem comes sooner. | Jan 15 12:18 |
| Adus | then the competition will start. | Jan 15 12:18 |
| DaemonFC | oiaohm: Why does AMD say my card can do OpenGL 3.1 | Jan 15 12:18 |
| DaemonFC | when glxinfo reports 2.1 | Jan 15 12:18 |
| DaemonFC | the card supports it but not the driver? | Jan 15 12:18 |
| oiaohm | DaemonFC: open source mesa is not doing Opengl 3.1 reporting. | Jan 15 12:18 |
| oiaohm | DaemonFC: a few bits are not suppot by mesa yet as well. | Jan 15 12:19 |
| DaemonFC | oiaohm: So I shouldn't be kicking myself for buying a OpenGL 2.1 card? | Jan 15 12:19 |
| oiaohm | It will become a Opengl 3.1 card in time DaemonFC | Jan 15 12:19 |
| Adus | Try it on Windows 7, I can get you a cheap license through work :p | Jan 15 12:19 |
| DaemonFC | Adus: I already have more Windows licenses than I want | Jan 15 12:20 |
| Adus | GLC-00181 Win Ult 7 English ROW DVD DVD 7 English Non-specific GBP 19.25 | Jan 15 12:20 |
| Adus | Aww, I even looked it up for you :p | Jan 15 12:20 |
| oiaohm | Even under windows some ATI cards are reporting as opengl 2.1 Adus Due to drivers not being ready for 3.1 even that card supports all that is need. | Jan 15 12:20 |
| Adus | oiaohm: yeh, ATIs driver support is shoddy at best. | Jan 15 12:21 |
| oiaohm | Basically it is kinda platform netural Adus ATI shoddy. | Jan 15 12:21 |
| DaemonFC | I have licenses for Windows 2000 Professional and Advanced Server, XP Home and Pro, XP x64 Pro, Windows Server 2003 and R2 Enterprise, Windows Vista all editions, Windows 7 Home Premium, and Windows Server 2008 and R2 Standard | Jan 15 12:21 |
| Adus | I remember when Vista came out, ATI didn't have OpenGL support until after RTM | Jan 15 12:22 |
| Adus | and at the time I was working on an OpenGL game | Jan 15 12:22 |
| Adus | was a frigging nightmare | Jan 15 12:22 |
| DaemonFC | as well as Office 95 through 2007 | Jan 15 12:22 |
| Adus | I get all MS software at cost price. | Jan 15 12:22 |
| DaemonFC | if you want to go earlier than all this I have licenses for Windows 95, 95 OSR 2.1, 98, Me | Jan 15 12:22 |
| Adus | That's for friends etc, I get a free digital copy of all MS software for personal use. | Jan 15 12:23 |
| DaemonFC | 3.11 For Workgroups and Office 6 | Jan 15 12:23 |
| DaemonFC | Adus: You like spreading the venereal disease then | Jan 15 12:23 |
| DaemonFC | :) | Jan 15 12:23 |
| DaemonFC | it's all free | Jan 15 12:23 |
| DaemonFC | as much as you want | Jan 15 12:23 |
| Adus | For personal use, I get MS software free, yeh. | Jan 15 12:24 |
| Adus | But having a discount is a nice benefit if friends want copies etc | Jan 15 12:24 |
| Adus | Windows 7 ULT for £20 is like 10% of RTM | Jan 15 12:24 |
| Adus | RRP* | Jan 15 12:24 |
| oiaohm | I manage a network for a charity. I can play with any MS software I want at no charge they have the complete lot. | Jan 15 12:24 |
| Adus | :p | Jan 15 12:24 |
| Adus | MSDN? | Jan 15 12:24 |
| Adus | or TechNet? | Jan 15 12:24 |
| oiaohm | I have technet and MSDN access. | Jan 15 12:25 |
| oiaohm | As well as OEM supply. | Jan 15 12:25 |
| Adus | I never use TechNet, I'm not really sure what it's for. I do have an account | Jan 15 12:25 |
| Adus | but I've never needed to go there :p | Jan 15 12:25 |
| oiaohm | TechNet is handy when windows goes nuts. | Jan 15 12:25 |
| Adus | I use MSDN quite a lot. | Jan 15 12:25 |
| Adus | I have an MSDN Blog as well :p | Jan 15 12:25 |
| DaemonFC | so it's always incredibly useful, oiaohm ? | Jan 15 12:25 |
| DaemonFC | :) | Jan 15 12:25 |
| oiaohm | All the bug information there and workarounds is DaemonFC | Jan 15 12:26 |
| oiaohm | Not exactly that useful for a developer Adus | Jan 15 12:26 |
| oiaohm | TechNet is more useful to network admins. | Jan 15 12:26 |
| Adus | Yeh, I gathered. | Jan 15 12:26 |
| oiaohm | MSDN is basicaly worthless to me doing network admin. | Jan 15 12:26 |
| Adus | I work on large-scale distributed networking systems. Hence the reason Google offered me a job as well. | Jan 15 12:27 |
| Adus | Interesting area if I don't say so myself. | Jan 15 12:27 |
| oiaohm | And a lot of ways a single typo can turn into the nightmare for hell as well Adus | Jan 15 12:27 |
| oiaohm | Large-scale distributed I have had to pick of some of the messes when they have gone wrong. | Jan 15 12:28 |
| Adus | Hehe. Yeh, Xbox Live is pretty insane | Jan 15 12:28 |
| Adus | Generally we hover around 3 million concurrent users | Jan 15 12:28 |
| Adus | huge amounts of traffic and processing going on | Jan 15 12:28 |
| Adus | it's a real challenge to handle that load, but interesting and fun. | Jan 15 12:29 |
| schestowitz | http://www.pcworld.com/article/186969/us_video_game_market_shrank_8_percent_in_2009.html?tk=rss_news | Jan 15 12:29 |
| phIRCe-local | Title: US Video Game Market Shrank 8 Percent in 2009 - PC World .::. Size~: 59.84 KB | Jan 15 12:29 |
| Adus | yeh schestowitz, looks like it will bounce back this year though. | Jan 15 12:30 |
| Adus | The UK market grew though :) | Jan 15 12:30 |
| Adus | though only by about 1% | Jan 15 12:30 |
| oiaohm | So the day Xbox Live majorally screws up send xbox users in your direction? Adus | Jan 15 12:30 |
| Adus | oiaohm: Hehe, not really. Unless it's after an update | Jan 15 12:30 |
| Adus | any failure is more likely ot be hardware than software | Jan 15 12:30 |
| Adus | we thoroughly test updates before propping them. | Jan 15 12:30 |
| DaemonFC | http://wiki.cchtml.com/index.php/Fedora_12_Installation_Guide | Jan 15 12:31 |
| phIRCe-local | Title: Fedora 12 Installation Guide - cchtml.com .::. Size~: 11.3 KB | Jan 15 12:31 |
| DaemonFC | at least they're honest? | Jan 15 12:31 |
| oiaohm | At some point a error will get threw. That is just sod law at work. Adus | Jan 15 12:31 |
| Adus | We have had unexpected downtime, but it's been very rare. Like once in the last 2 years. | Jan 15 12:31 |
| Adus | The system is incredibly redundant. | Jan 15 12:31 |
| Adus | Yep oiaohm, that failure was a software one. | Jan 15 12:31 |
| Adus | Well, a mix of software and human error | Jan 15 12:31 |
| oiaohm | Remember google packet storm that took now there servers as well. | Jan 15 12:32 |
| oiaohm | Minor routering errors turned into a major nightmare. | Jan 15 12:32 |
| Adus | Yeh, I don't deny it's possible. As I say, we've had a big bit of downtime in the last 2 years. | Jan 15 12:32 |
| Adus | But it is rare | Jan 15 12:32 |
| oiaohm | So at least I know were to point people if it happens. | Jan 15 12:32 |
| Adus | Generally we roll updates out slowly, like over a week. | Jan 15 12:33 |
| Adus | Do small chunks of boxes each time. | Jan 15 12:33 |
| Adus | So if they fall over, the others are still fine. | Jan 15 12:33 |
| Adus | Only the major updates require a full shutdown (usually the Fall update once a year) | Jan 15 12:33 |
| Adus | Which is usually like 48hour scheduled downtime | Jan 15 12:34 |
| oiaohm | Googles was a cascade effect. | Jan 15 12:34 |
| oiaohm | that did not show up until too many machines were converted to stop it. | Jan 15 12:34 |
| Adus | The problem we had was caused by a firmware update. We have the ability to push certain updates to certain consoles (so users can beta test etc) | Jan 15 12:34 |
| oiaohm | History of failures tell you no matter what you do one day you will be got. | Jan 15 12:34 |
| Adus | and someone accidently pushed it to everyone | Jan 15 12:34 |
| Adus | and there was a problem | Jan 15 12:34 |
| Adus | We have measures in place to stop that happening again now | Jan 15 12:35 |
| oiaohm | So lack of a isolated test network. | Jan 15 12:35 |
| Adus | We do have an isolated test network | Jan 15 12:35 |
| Adus | called PartnerNet, that's internal | Jan 15 12:35 |
| DaemonFC | oiaohm: I ended up having to disable the AppArmor policy for Firefox to get Transmission to open torrents as I click them and select "open with" | Jan 15 12:35 |
| oiaohm | I mean at the time. | Jan 15 12:35 |
| DaemonFC | figure I should report that as a bug? | Jan 15 12:35 |
| Adus | but we do public beta on the live servers as well (it's not practical to move them to a totally seperate network) | Jan 15 12:35 |
| Adus | because then they wouldn't be able to play with their friends etc | Jan 15 12:36 |
| oiaohm | DaemonFC: that would be a policy error not permitting Transmission to open. | Jan 15 12:36 |
| Adus | but that's usually the very last stage, and we roll it out to people slowly. | Jan 15 12:36 |
| Adus | Not all at once. | Jan 15 12:36 |
| Adus | So: Missed software issue + human failure by accidently rolling out = very bad | Jan 15 12:36 |
| Adus | But yeh, can't happen again, as we changed the software that rolls out updates | Jan 15 12:36 |
| Adus | so you can't accidently submit it | Jan 15 12:37 |
| Adus | You have to make a real efford to workaround the safeguards, which would get you fired :p | Jan 15 12:37 |
| Adus | effort* | Jan 15 12:37 |
| oiaohm | Lets just hope the safeguards don't have a programming error themselves. | Jan 15 12:37 |
| Adus | hehe | Jan 15 12:38 |
| Adus | Well, it's been all good since then. | Jan 15 12:38 |
| Adus | I just really enjoy the challenge of working on such big systems, you have to think about every byte of traffic, every clock cycle etc | Jan 15 12:38 |
| Adus | I find that really interesting | Jan 15 12:38 |
| oiaohm | Remember the openssh issue with debian. It appeared to work perfectly. | Jan 15 12:39 |
| Adus | I think I remember reading about that, it's not exactly my area though. I suspect it's more yours | Jan 15 12:40 |
| oiaohm | Just because something appears to work does not mean it is. The worst nightmares come from that kind of stuff. | Jan 15 12:40 |
| Adus | not exactly largely distributed. | Jan 15 12:40 |
| oiaohm | Basically the openssh was gennerating like 64 different keys only. | Jan 15 12:40 |
| oiaohm | Yep opps. | Jan 15 12:40 |
| Adus | Yeh, I'm sure I remember hearing about that. | Jan 15 12:40 |
| Adus | You'd think they'd have had unit tests | Jan 15 12:40 |
| Adus | to pick that up | Jan 15 12:40 |
| oiaohm | The complier screwed the unit tests so it passed. | Jan 15 12:41 |
| oiaohm | Ie the source code of openssh was basically fine other than the complier with particular options shooting it to hell. | Jan 15 12:41 |
| Adus | Ah, I love bugs like that. | Jan 15 12:42 |
| Adus | "But it works fine in the sample". | Jan 15 12:42 |
| Adus | Then you work out it's down to compiler and linker flags | Jan 15 12:42 |
| Adus | :p | Jan 15 12:42 |
| oiaohm | Its just the best and largest spreed example of complier caused hell I could think of Adus | Jan 15 12:43 |
| oiaohm | All debian and releated distributions with openssh installed is one hell of a number of machines effected. | Jan 15 12:44 |
| oiaohm | Then so other distributions that repackaged debian sources | Jan 15 12:45 |
| Adus | debian serves as the base for quite a few distros doesn't it? Like Ubuntu? | Jan 15 12:51 |
| Diablo-D3 | debian doesnt install openssh by default, though. | Jan 15 12:52 |
| Diablo-D3 | and no, ssh wasnt generating only 64 keys | Jan 15 12:52 |
| Adus | I tried debian once, a long time ago, but there was some reason I didn't like it, can't remember what it was now. | Jan 15 12:52 |
| Diablo-D3 | and debian was using a patch from openssh upstream that had not yet been released in a stable release | Jan 15 12:53 |
| Diablo-D3 | so thanks for misrepresenting that. | Jan 15 12:53 |
| MinceR | i know why didn't you like it: it wasn't windows. | Jan 15 12:54 |
| Diablo-D3 | MinceR: dohoohohohohoh | Jan 15 12:54 |
| Adus | MinceR: No, I was running Slackware on that box at the time. | Jan 15 12:54 |
| Diablo-D3 | eww slackware | Jan 15 12:55 |
| Adus | I use OpenBSD for the same purpose now, which is checking my code will compile for platforms with berkeley sockets. | Jan 15 12:55 |
| MinceR | well, m$ fanboys will always go for bsd before gnu/linux | Jan 15 12:55 |
| MinceR | gpl is the devil, isn't it? :> | Jan 15 12:55 |
| Adus | I just find BSD is easier to set up for what I want. | Jan 15 12:55 |
| Diablo-D3 | debian > slackware by far | Jan 15 12:55 |
| Omar87 | Hi all | Jan 15 12:56 |
| Adus | I am talking about years and years ago here. :p | Jan 15 12:56 |
| Diablo-D3 | Ive been using debian for a decade | Jan 15 12:56 |
| Adus | and yes, gpl is the devil MinceR :p | Jan 15 12:56 |
| Omar87 | Anyone read that article on RMS selling exceptions of GNU GPL licesnse? | Jan 15 12:56 |
| Diablo-D3 | Omar87: theres technically nothing wrong with that | Jan 15 12:57 |
| Adus | LGPL I can do, but gpl, not so much. | Jan 15 12:57 |
| MinceR | Adus: at least your employer's efforts at indoctrination didn't go to waste :> | Jan 15 12:57 |
| Diablo-D3 | as long as it applies to FSF owned software only, and its for a very large sum. | Jan 15 12:57 |
| Adus | MinceR: I have never really liked the GPL and what it represents. | Jan 15 12:57 |
| Diablo-D3 | btw, this is why I like the term FOSS | Jan 15 12:57 |
| Diablo-D3 | it applies to all OSI approved licenses. | Jan 15 12:57 |
| -BNc/#boycottnovell-[zoobab] Nellie Kroes says she made a deal with Microsoft last week, probably against Samba and for software patents: http://i5.be/aiU @ 5456secs | Jan 15 12:58 | |
| phIRCe-local | Title: Index of /Kroes100114 .::. Size~: 0.7 KB | Jan 15 12:58 |
| Adus | LGPL is fine :) | Jan 15 12:58 |
| Diablo-D3 | wow, Ive been using debian for 11 years. | Jan 15 12:58 |
| *Diablo-D3 started with slink, released march 1999 | Jan 15 12:58 | |
| Adus | Having said that, I have no fundamental dislike of people releasing their code under GPL, it's their code to do with what they wish. | Jan 15 12:59 |
| Omar87 | Diablo-D3: yeah, I know. But wouldn't that open the door for large anti-FOSS corporations like Microsloth? | Jan 15 12:59 |
| Diablo-D3 | Omar87: kind of | Jan 15 12:59 |
| MinceR | where does RMS say that he's selling exceptions to the GPL licensing of software owned by FSF? | Jan 15 12:59 |
| Adus | I just don't really buy into the ideaology behind it. | Jan 15 12:59 |
| Diablo-D3 | microsoft had a lot of trouple to get an OSI licensed license | Jan 15 12:59 |
| Diablo-D3 | er | Jan 15 12:59 |
| Diablo-D3 | OSI approved | Jan 15 12:59 |
| Adus | Ms-PL is OSI approved isn't it? | Jan 15 13:00 |
| Diablo-D3 | one of them is | Jan 15 13:00 |
| Diablo-D3 | I dont particularly like it because of the patent problems | Jan 15 13:00 |
| Diablo-D3 | microsoft has a patent warchest, they intend to use it, ergo, I cant trust microsoft. | Jan 15 13:00 |
| Adus | What patent problems? | Jan 15 13:00 |
| MinceR | they also keep issuing threats and FUD | Jan 15 13:00 |
| Diablo-D3 | Adus: the license doesn't give anyone using ms-pl code a free pass | Jan 15 13:00 |
| Adus | "Patent Grant- Subject to the terms of this license, including the license conditions and limitations in section 3, each contributor grants you a non-exclusive, worldwide, royalty-free license under its licensed patents to make, have made, use, sell, offer for sale, import, and/or otherwise dispose of its contribution in the software or derivative works of the contribution in the software." | Jan 15 13:01 |
| Adus | It doesn't? :p | Jan 15 13:01 |
| Diablo-D3 | hrm, maybe Im thinking of a different one | Jan 15 13:01 |
| *Diablo-D3 checks OSI | Jan 15 13:01 | |
| Adus | http://www.opensource.org/licenses/ms-pl.html | Jan 15 13:01 |
| phIRCe-local | Title: Microsoft Public License (Ms-PL) | Open Source Initiative .::. Size~: 14.33 KB | Jan 15 13:01 |
| Adus | You're probably thinking of the research license | Jan 15 13:02 |
| Adus | like the .NET code is released under? | Jan 15 13:02 |
| Adus | Which is for reference only | Jan 15 13:02 |
| Omar87 | Adus: maybe there ain't no ideology behind that. But as long as there evil corporations like Microsloth, the GPL should stay there, and should also stay as strict as possible. | Jan 15 13:02 |
| Omar87 | as long as there *are*.. | Jan 15 13:02 |
| Adus | There is most definitely an ideaology associated with the GPL, | Jan 15 13:03 |
| Adus | LGPL less so. | Jan 15 13:03 |
| schestowitz | I've come to the conclusion that Adus is like these chums: http://rawstory.com/2010/01/obama-staffer-infiltration-911-groups/ | Jan 15 13:04 |
| phIRCe-local | Title: Obama staffer wants cognitive infiltration of 9/11 conspiracy groups | Raw Story .::. Size~: 45.14 KB | Jan 15 13:04 |
| schestowitz | 'Cass Sunstein, a Harvard law professor, co-wrote an academic article entitled "Conspiracy Theories: Causes and Cures," in which he argued that the government should stealthily infiltrate groups that pose alternative theories on historical events via "chat rooms, online social networks, or even real-space groups and attempt to undermine" those groups.' | Jan 15 13:04 |
| MinceR | i doubt there are a lot of people foolish enough to ask a m$ employee about what ideology is behind FLOSS licenses. | Jan 15 13:04 |
| schestowitz | He's here to push the Microsoft line | Jan 15 13:05 |
| schestowitz | I hardly feel like rebutting the whole nonsense | Jan 15 13:05 |
| MinceR | it's less productive than consulting /dev/urandom. | Jan 15 13:05 |
| Diablo-D3 | Adus: I might be thinking of that one | Jan 15 13:05 |
| Diablo-D3 | has ms actually used ms-pl | Jan 15 13:05 |
| schestowitz | Same old talking points about the licences INJECTED into OSI | Jan 15 13:05 |
| schestowitz | Depite resistance | Jan 15 13:05 |
| schestowitz | And the anti-GPL rhetoric | Jan 15 13:05 |
| MinceR | yes, the same old bullshit | Jan 15 13:05 |
| schestowitz | I'm ok with having Microsoft employees like Adus here, but that's just ruining the atmoshere | Jan 15 13:05 |
| schestowitz | If we wanted to discuss the Microsoft propaganda, there's Slashdot already | Jan 15 13:06 |
| Omar87 | Well, according to my beliefs, "Freedom", in general is something that comes with every human being on Earth, be it a "Technica Freedom", "Social Freedom", or even "Political" or "Ideological" Freedom. | Jan 15 13:06 |
| schestowitz | /me watches http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NkOpikTL_OE&feature=channel | Jan 15 13:06 |
| phIRCe-local | Title: YouTube- BioTech Chemical Biological Pharmaceutical Weapons .::. Size~: 147.65 KB | Jan 15 13:06 |
| Diablo-D3 | schestowitz: actually its not so bad | Jan 15 13:06 |
| Diablo-D3 | adus at least speaks english | Jan 15 13:06 |
| Adus | Diablo-D3: Ms-PL is the most open MS license. There's also shared source and research. | Jan 15 13:06 |
| Adus | Might be more. | Jan 15 13:06 |
| MinceR | shared source is offtopic. :> | Jan 15 13:06 |
| Diablo-D3 | its better than the other microsoft shills microsoft had in here | Jan 15 13:06 |
| schestowitz | EMbrace and extend | Jan 15 13:06 |
| Diablo-D3 | that just say random shit all day | Jan 15 13:06 |
| schestowitz | Like in this channel :-) | Jan 15 13:07 |
| MinceR | and m$ talk about "research" is just marketing bullshit. | Jan 15 13:07 |
| Diablo-D3 | ms does very little research imo | Jan 15 13:07 |
| schestowitz | Yes | Jan 15 13:07 |
| schestowitz | CNET wrote about it | Jan 15 13:07 |
| Adus | Well, Ms-PL is actually meant for developers like me Diablo-D3. We're allowed to release internal MS code, as long as it's below 2000 lines and is of genuine value to our customers. | Jan 15 13:07 |
| Diablo-D3 | like they should be researching how to get people like me to use a ms desktop. | Jan 15 13:07 |
| schestowitz | actually, the original was in ZDNet UK | Jan 15 13:07 |
| Adus | Under Ms-PL, that's why it was made. | Jan 15 13:07 |
| Omar87 | That's why, when someone like Bill Gates comes for the mere reason of stealing my Freedom, I can't just hand it over to him. | Jan 15 13:07 |
| schestowitz | It's mostly PR | Jan 15 13:07 |
| schestowitz | And it shoiws | Jan 15 13:07 |
| Diablo-D3 | Adus: so.... a rather useless license. how sad. | Jan 15 13:07 |
| oiaohm | But there were other licences offering exactly what MS-PL does Adus | Jan 15 13:07 |
| Diablo-D3 | Adus: I can belt out 2000 lines in a day, its not really worth using. | Jan 15 13:08 |
| schestowitz | But Microsoft does not control them, oiaohm | Jan 15 13:08 |
| schestowitz | It does not control how they evolve | Jan 15 13:08 |
| schestowitz | Embrace | Jan 15 13:08 |
| schestowitz | Extend | Jan 15 13:08 |
| schestowitz | And what comes next? | Jan 15 13:08 |
| Diablo-D3 | Adus: microsoft should, honestly, quit writing itself out of the future of computing | Jan 15 13:08 |
| schestowitz | I actually have a post coming on GO COrporaiton | Jan 15 13:08 |
| schestowitz | We found some more smoking guns in COmes | Jan 15 13:08 |
| Adus | Well, as far as I know there is no clause in Ms-PL that any future licenses are also valid schestowitz, so it's not like they can suddenly change the terms? :p | Jan 15 13:08 |
| MinceR | nice | Jan 15 13:08 |
| oiaohm | Open Source world has a lot of duplication of licences. New that are not different to a old get discouraged. Adus | Jan 15 13:08 |
| schestowitz | Microsoft embrace & extend again | Jan 15 13:09 |
| wallc_ | Yes, I've been transcribing some of the Comes stuff about GO | Jan 15 13:09 |
| Diablo-D3 | Adus: oracle, sun, and apple all have secured their place in the new computing industry... microsoft hasnt | Jan 15 13:09 |
| Diablo-D3 | Adus: I dont particularly want to clean up the mess. | Jan 15 13:09 |
| schestowitz | wallc_: ah, so it's your fault !! | Jan 15 13:09 |
| schestowitz | Someone mailed me with pointers to it | Jan 15 13:09 |
| schestowitz | ~pc500 | Jan 15 13:09 |
| wallc_ | :) | Jan 15 13:09 |
| schestowitz | ~px500 | Jan 15 13:09 |
| oiaohm | Adus: Ms-PL was basically a branding stunt to make themselves look good. | Jan 15 13:09 |
| Adus | Diablo-D3: Oh, I don't know. Microsoft is undergoing a huge amount of restructuring currently. | Jan 15 13:10 |
| MinceR | Diablo-D3: what's crApple doing in the computing industry? :> | Jan 15 13:10 |
| Diablo-D3 | Adus: Ive heard about that. | Jan 15 13:10 |
| schestowitz | Adus: yes, it's called layoffs | Jan 15 13:10 |
| wallc_ | No, I didn't do that one, but I've done others... | Jan 15 13:10 |
| Diablo-D3 | MinceR: spending lots of money and donating lots of code back. | Jan 15 13:10 |
| Adus | Getting rid of Ballmer wouldn't be a bad thing either, but I didn't say that. | Jan 15 13:10 |
| Diablo-D3 | MinceR: apple is one of the major forces behind the new llvm-based C compiler | Jan 15 13:10 |
| oiaohm | Adus: Branding stunts and tricks most of the open source world have no time for. | Jan 15 13:10 |
| schestowitz | The SVP just left | Jan 15 13:10 |
| MinceR | Diablo-D3: yeah. spending lots of money on their own proprietary crap, ripping off a lot of code and donating what little bit they have to. | Jan 15 13:10 |
| Diablo-D3 | MinceR: as is intel, amd, and ibm. | Jan 15 13:10 |
| schestowitz | Nobody left to run things... | Jan 15 13:10 |
| Diablo-D3 | MinceR: not at all | Jan 15 13:11 |
| schestowitz | Maybe Bach will quite next | Jan 15 13:11 |
| Adus | oiaohm: That's not really the true nature of the changes, the "layoffs" were not to reduce headcount, they were to free up headcount in other areas of the company | Jan 15 13:11 |
| schestowitz | He failed badly | Jan 15 13:11 |
| Diablo-D3 | MinceR: BSD licensed is completely fine imo. | Jan 15 13:11 |
| MinceR | mostly lots of money on marketing. | Jan 15 13:11 |
| Adus | most of which has already been refilled. | Jan 15 13:11 |
| schestowitz | Mobile, Xbox, Surface | Jan 15 13:11 |
| schestowitz | Bach is a total loser when it comes to $$ | Jan 15 13:11 |
| schestowitz | His division bleeds billions | Jan 15 13:11 |
| schestowitz | ANd the online units can't even keep a leadwr | Jan 15 13:11 |
| Adus | I quite like Robbie Bach, he's a decent guy. | Jan 15 13:11 |
| schestowitz | They kept quitting in 2006-2009 | Jan 15 13:11 |
| MinceR | Diablo-D3: meanwhile they're pushing software patents and DRM. | Jan 15 13:11 |
| Diablo-D3 | Adus: my opinion on microsoft is basically this: they have things worth saving, they have things that aren't... they keep trying to keep the shit while throwing out the good stuff. | Jan 15 13:11 |
| schestowitz | Does the online unit even have a head now? :-) | Jan 15 13:11 |
| Diablo-D3 | MinceR: actuallllyyyy they're not pushing DRM | Jan 15 13:11 |
| schestowitz | Adus: decent? | Jan 15 13:11 |
| schestowitz | He attacks Linux | Jan 15 13:12 |
| MinceR | Diablo-D3: actually they are | Jan 15 13:12 |
| Diablo-D3 | MinceR: look at what happened with itunes | Jan 15 13:12 |
| schestowitz | He should speak about his product | Jan 15 13:12 |
| wallc_ | Getting rid of Ballmer? They'd just replace him with somebody with hair, social skills, and less sweat...the ethics (or lack thereof) wouldn't change though. | Jan 15 13:12 |
| schestowitz | For a man in his role... | Jan 15 13:12 |
| Diablo-D3 | MinceR: itunes music is not DRMed because Apple one day stood up and said no. | Jan 15 13:12 |
| Adus | There is a head of online, I can't remember who it is though. | Jan 15 13:12 |
| schestowitz | wallc_: not necessarily in that order :-D | Jan 15 13:12 |
| MinceR | Diablo-D3: only music is DRM-free there, and even on that they pulled their leg a lot | Jan 15 13:12 |
| wallc_ | :) | Jan 15 13:12 |
| MinceR | Diablo-D3: many others did it before them, so they had to | Jan 15 13:12 |
| Diablo-D3 | MinceR: many others didnt do it before them | Jan 15 13:12 |
| schestowitz | Adus: depends on the month of the year | Jan 15 13:12 |
| MinceR | Diablo-D3: http://www.defectivebydesign.org/sites/defectivebydesign.org/files/appledrmfail.png | Jan 15 13:12 |
| phIRCe-local | Title: Not a web page! Aborting image/png type .::. Size~: 0 KB | Jan 15 13:12 |
| Diablo-D3 | MinceR: itunes was the first successful music store. | Jan 15 13:12 |
| schestowitz | Not to worry | Jan 15 13:12 |
| MinceR | what | Jan 15 13:12 |
| schestowitz | Google is f*ing dead like Microsoft's Ballmer wanted. | Jan 15 13:13 |
| schestowitz | Bong at 3% | Jan 15 13:13 |
| Diablo-D3 | music stores that didnt have drm to begin with dont count to say "others did it first" | Jan 15 13:13 |
| schestowitz | "Google, here we come!!" | Jan 15 13:13 |
| oiaohm | Adus: what is getting me is for all this restruct. There is no sign of new products to replace those destroyed. | Jan 15 13:13 |
| Diablo-D3 | Apple _forced_ the RIAA to do it. | Jan 15 13:13 |
| Diablo-D3 | it was part of a larger plan | Jan 15 13:13 |
| Diablo-D3 | and Apple won | Jan 15 13:13 |
| MinceR | Diablo-D3: lol | Jan 15 13:13 |
| MinceR | Diablo-D3: bullshit. | Jan 15 13:13 |
| Diablo-D3 | Not bullshit. | Jan 15 13:13 |
| cubezzz | napster was non-pay originally wasn't it? | Jan 15 13:13 |
| MinceR | Diablo-D3: music stores that began without DRM did it the _right_ way | Jan 15 13:13 |
| Omar87 | Diablo-D3: to me, TheSixtyOne FTW! :-D | Jan 15 13:13 |
| Diablo-D3 | itunes sells more music than any other retailer | Jan 15 13:13 |
| Adus | oiaohm: Well, I can only speak for what we're doing in my division. | Jan 15 13:13 |
| oiaohm | Adus: Idea of a restruct is always to make more profit. Problem is I cannot see how. | Jan 15 13:13 |
| MinceR | Diablo-D3: hypeTunes was merely forced to get with the program or lose profits. | Jan 15 13:13 |
| Diablo-D3 | apple said "we're not doing drm anymore" | Jan 15 13:13 |
| MinceR | Diablo-D3: they tell a lot of lies | Jan 15 13:14 |
| Diablo-D3 | riaa was forced to accept the new terms or stop selling music altogether. | Jan 15 13:14 |
| schestowitz | Novell restructured too | Jan 15 13:14 |
| MinceR | Diablo-D3: they're still doing DRM | Jan 15 13:14 |
| Adus | Diablo-D3: Apple did that because the consumer demanded it, not out of the goodness of their hearts | Jan 15 13:14 |
| Diablo-D3 | MinceR: on video. | Jan 15 13:14 |
| schestowitz | Down from 4 units to 2 in December | Jan 15 13:14 |
| Adus | just like Microsoft dropped NGSCB/Palladium because there was major opposition. | Jan 15 13:14 |
| schestowitz | Novell is losing it totally now | Jan 15 13:14 |
| Diablo-D3 | Adus: thats partially true | Jan 15 13:14 |
| Diablo-D3 | Apple is a company | Jan 15 13:14 |
| MinceR | Diablo-D3: which doesn't count in your world? | Jan 15 13:14 |
| oiaohm | Adus: currently it looks to me more of an attempt to cut the bleed. My point of view changes if I could see something coming out of it. | Jan 15 13:14 |
| Diablo-D3 | their number one job is to make money | Jan 15 13:14 |
| schestowitz | I have a post about it later... another massive contract they have just lost | Jan 15 13:14 |
| Diablo-D3 | if the consumers say "we'll buy more music if DRM goes" | Jan 15 13:14 |
| Diablo-D3 | then apple will get rid of drm. | Jan 15 13:14 |
| Diablo-D3 | the riaa was forced, ironically, to profit against their will. boo fucking hoo. | Jan 15 13:15 |
| MinceR | Diablo-D3: also, iirc they did charge a lot of extra money on giving customers DRM-free versions of DRM-ed songs they've bought. | Jan 15 13:15 |
| Diablo-D3 | MinceR: yes, a very small amount | Jan 15 13:15 |
| Diablo-D3 | it also gave them higher quality versions iirc | Jan 15 13:15 |
| Adus | Diablo-D3: I'm very much of the opinion that it is not the job of companies like Apple, Microsoft and Google to cover the asses of other incompetent companies by pushing DRM on their users | Jan 15 13:15 |
| Adus | it's not their problem. | Jan 15 13:15 |
| Diablo-D3 | Adus: its the job of apple, microsoft, and google to make money | Jan 15 13:15 |
| Diablo-D3 | DRM does not make money | Jan 15 13:15 |
| Adus | Diablo-D3: Yes, precisely. | Jan 15 13:16 |
| Diablo-D3 | ergo, its the job of apple, microsoft, and google to reject it | Jan 15 13:16 |
| Diablo-D3 | apple grabbed the riaa by the balls | Jan 15 13:16 |
| Adus | Which they have pretty much all done now. | Jan 15 13:16 |
| Diablo-D3 | and said no more drm | Jan 15 13:16 |
| oiaohm | Yet DRM does make money in places. | Jan 15 13:16 |
| Diablo-D3 | Adus: microsoft still does it internally though | Jan 15 13:16 |
| Diablo-D3 | Adus: I want the license shit gone | Jan 15 13:16 |
| Adus | DRM is certain places makes sense, Consoles for example. | Jan 15 13:16 |
| oiaohm | Like locking out thrid party memory cards out of xbox 360 Adus | Jan 15 13:16 |
| MinceR | consoles suck | Jan 15 13:16 |
| MinceR | and their DRM-dependent business model sucks even more | Jan 15 13:16 |
| oiaohm | So MS collects all the money on memory cards. | Jan 15 13:16 |
| Diablo-D3 | Adus: DRM makes no sense anywhere | Jan 15 13:17 |
| Adus | oiaohm: Yes, I think it makes sense on consoles to some extent. We could argue the pros and cons, on the whole I think it's a good thing for consumers in a console. | Jan 15 13:17 |
| Diablo-D3 | if you're afraid of pirates, then you're charing too much for the product. | Jan 15 13:17 |
| oiaohm | End result less competion higher prices for the device. Adus | Jan 15 13:17 |
| oiaohm | Harmed end users Adus | Jan 15 13:17 |
| Diablo-D3 | Adus: and not all DRM is created equal | Jan 15 13:17 |
| oiaohm | Weaker location in the market long term. | Jan 15 13:17 |
| Adus | oiaohm: But users of consoles expect a console to "just work", that's the whole appeal | Jan 15 13:17 |
| Diablo-D3 | Adus: I have no problem with amazon hiding ID information in my music bought off amazon mp3 | Jan 15 13:17 |
| Adus | and opening the platform means you can no longer guarantee that | Jan 15 13:17 |
| Adus | it becomes a PC | Jan 15 13:17 |
| MinceR | oh noes, it becomes usable | Jan 15 13:18 |
| Diablo-D3 | Adus: it doesn't effect playback whatsoever, it just stops me from letting other people pirate off me | Jan 15 13:18 |
| oiaohm | What says there is not a middle ground Adus | Jan 15 13:18 |
| Diablo-D3 | steam is the same way... it's DRM consists of calling home to see if its a legit copy. | Jan 15 13:18 |
| oiaohm | Sony never has locked what memory cards users can use. | Jan 15 13:18 |
| MinceR | Diablo-D3: it also stops you from lending it to others. | Jan 15 13:18 |
| Adus | oiaohm: I agree, consoles could be more open. I think XNA went someway towards that | Jan 15 13:18 |
| Adus | further than Sony or Nintendo have gone | Jan 15 13:18 |
| Diablo-D3 | MinceR: I'm not sure lending even matters anymore. | Jan 15 13:18 |
| MinceR | Diablo-D3: and it still puts you in danger if someone breaks into a system where you're storing such songs. | Jan 15 13:18 |
| Adus | and it was a masterstroke, supporting indie development has done wonders for MS | Jan 15 13:19 |
| MinceR | Diablo-D3: lending is part of fair use. | Jan 15 13:19 |
| Diablo-D3 | MinceR: nope, it doesn't. | Jan 15 13:19 |
| *wallc_ has quit ("Page closed") | Jan 15 13:19 | |
| Diablo-D3 | MinceR: lending is part of fair use _only_ when people stop abusing it. | Jan 15 13:19 |
| oiaohm | The over use of DRM always comes back to bite. Adus | Jan 15 13:19 |
| oiaohm | It will on the xbox360 in time. | Jan 15 13:19 |
| MinceR | Diablo-D3: can you guarantee that the person you're lending it to won't abuse it? | Jan 15 13:19 |
| Diablo-D3 | MinceR: for example, I don't believe in rental stores. | Jan 15 13:19 |
| Diablo-D3 | I _do_ believe in libraries. | Jan 15 13:19 |
| Adus | Well, that's the problem. I doubt any of us in here would infringe copyright by downloading music or software, but the fact is, people do | Jan 15 13:19 |
| Adus | and it's a big problem | Jan 15 13:20 |
| oiaohm | People fail to learn leasons from items like ipods so repeat it Adus | Jan 15 13:20 |
| MinceR | also, can you guarantee that his storage device won't be broken into or stolen? | Jan 15 13:20 |
| Diablo-D3 | MinceR: btw, dont bring up the theft problem | Jan 15 13:20 |
| Diablo-D3 | they cant sue me for it | Jan 15 13:20 |
| oiaohm | What is different to what MS is doing with controllers and ipods and itunes. | Jan 15 13:20 |
| Diablo-D3 | all I do is throw a police report in their face | Jan 15 13:20 |
| MinceR | Diablo-D3: you're living in a dream world | Jan 15 13:20 |
| Adus | You have people like me, who are quite pro MS etc and you have people like you lot, who are very pro FOSS. The issue is the people inbetween, who don't really care and just want to download shit for free. | Jan 15 13:20 |
| Diablo-D3 | not at all | Jan 15 13:20 |
| Diablo-D3 | lets say I own a gun | Jan 15 13:20 |
| Adus | They are the problem. | Jan 15 13:20 |
| Diablo-D3 | the gun is stolen, I file a police report | Jan 15 13:20 |
| Diablo-D3 | someone then shoots someone with my gun | Jan 15 13:21 |
| Diablo-D3 | the guy who got shot cant do shit to me | Jan 15 13:21 |
| -BNi/#boycottnovell-[sagarun/@sagarun] New on #Flickr: My best shot of the day of #Solar #Eclipse #Photography http://flic.kr/p/7vPQs2 (via @sudhamshu) | Jan 15 13:21 | |
| Diablo-D3 | he cant sue, he cant press charges. | Jan 15 13:21 |
| oiaohm | Adus: Open source don't have a pirate problem. | Jan 15 13:21 |
| phIRCe-local | Title: Annular Solar Eclipse from Chennai on Flickr - Photo Sharing! .::. Size~: 60.84 KB | Jan 15 13:21 |
| MinceR | Diablo-D3: and they won't even take into consideration that the report you filed was a lie, no sir | Jan 15 13:21 |
| oiaohm | Adus: open source companies worked out support to use products is important. | Jan 15 13:21 |
| MinceR | this system can't be exploited, right? | Jan 15 13:21 |
| Diablo-D3 | MinceR: if Im lying on a police report, I have much larger problems than companies like Apple. | Jan 15 13:21 |
| oiaohm | How do you steal support? Adus | Jan 15 13:21 |
| MinceR | Diablo-D3: the authorities don't mind if you have large problems. | Jan 15 13:22 |
| Adus | oiaohm: Maybe not, but you have to admit that the open-source business model can not work in every case. I'm not saying there is not some common ground you can find, but that's still to be worked out to some extent. And copyright infringement harms both sides. | Jan 15 13:22 |
| Diablo-D3 | the authorities _are_ the large problem, MinceR. | Jan 15 13:22 |
| MinceR | they're _one_ large problem. | Jan 15 13:22 |
| Diablo-D3 | they're the largest problem of all | Jan 15 13:22 |
| oiaohm | Copyright infringement by closed source harms open source. | Jan 15 13:22 |
| Diablo-D3 | generally, someones not going to lie on a police report | Jan 15 13:22 |
| MinceR | generally. | Jan 15 13:22 |
| Adus | If people didn't infringe copyright at all, ever. What do you think the state of affairs would be today? | Jan 15 13:22 |
| oiaohm | But there is no such thing as copy right infringement of end users against open source. Adus | Jan 15 13:22 |
| Adus | A lot better for everyone. | Jan 15 13:22 |
| Diablo-D3 | Adus: rather boring, actually | Jan 15 13:23 |
| Diablo-D3 | most music wouldnt exist | Jan 15 13:23 |
| Diablo-D3 | computers probably wouldnt exist | Jan 15 13:23 |
| oiaohm | What is the advantage of the open source model. Less people to search for infringment so more enforcable Adus | Jan 15 13:23 |
| Diablo-D3 | and we'd probably all be dead | Jan 15 13:23 |
| Diablo-D3 | humans steal good ideas | Jan 15 13:23 |
| Adus | oiaohm: But that business model does not work for everything. | Jan 15 13:23 |
| Diablo-D3 | microsoft steals every good idea they can get their hands on | Jan 15 13:23 |
| Diablo-D3 | its their thing | Jan 15 13:23 |
| Diablo-D3 | its what they do | Jan 15 13:23 |
| MinceR | ...and implements it badly | Jan 15 13:23 |
| Diablo-D3 | MinceR: sadly yes | Jan 15 13:23 |
| Diablo-D3 | but they had the right idea | Jan 15 13:23 |
| cubezzz | steal isn't a good word, imitate is better | Jan 15 13:23 |
| oiaohm | TPM combind for devices works quite well. Adus | Jan 15 13:23 |
| Adus | A game for instance, costs a very large amount of money to develop, and I don't see how an open-source model could work. | Jan 15 13:23 |
| Diablo-D3 | foss, however, _shares_ ideas. | Jan 15 13:24 |
| Diablo-D3 | we freely hand them out | Jan 15 13:24 |
| MinceR | and that's how crApple started their idiot box industry, too. | Jan 15 13:24 |
| Diablo-D3 | and our system, through that, works so much better | Jan 15 13:24 |
| Diablo-D3 | if someone has a better idea, they're not our competitor... they're our best friend. | Jan 15 13:24 |
| oiaohm | Remember when you sell hardware you still have to support it Adus. | Jan 15 13:24 |
| Adus | I truly believe there is some middle-ground, and I also truly believe that ultimately it's up to the author to decide what is done with their own creation. | Jan 15 13:24 |
| MinceR | Adus: there already are FLOSS that cost a very large amount of money to develop. | Jan 15 13:24 |
| oiaohm | Open source is combinding into the support locations. Adus | Jan 15 13:24 |
| Adus | MinceR: But they don't have the same model as games. | Jan 15 13:25 |
| Diablo-D3 | Adus: yes, it is up to the author... however, when authors get in the way of other authors, theres a problem | Jan 15 13:25 |
| MinceR | Adus: m$ won't settle for any sort of middle ground | Jan 15 13:25 |
| Diablo-D3 | Adus: like, I have a right to run non-blessed software on my xbox... xbox does not have the right to, say, ban me from xbox live. | Jan 15 13:25 |
| MinceR | Adus: they think what we do is a "cancer" | Jan 15 13:25 |
| Diablo-D3 | Adus: er, microsoft | Jan 15 13:25 |
| oiaohm | Lot of open source games have restrictive licences on media. Adus | Jan 15 13:25 |
| Diablo-D3 | Adus: so, microsoft has effectively attacked every single open source game developer | Jan 15 13:25 |
| Adus | oiaohm: Which is just moving the problen. | Jan 15 13:25 |
| Diablo-D3 | and you know what we do with people like that? | Jan 15 13:25 |
| oiaohm | No its not Adus | Jan 15 13:26 |
| Diablo-D3 | we ignore them. | Jan 15 13:26 |
| Diablo-D3 | and then they're no longer relevant. | Jan 15 13:26 |
| MinceR | Diablo-D3: they might not have the right to ban you, but they'll do so anyway | Jan 15 13:26 |
| oiaohm | Remember on line game servers are also support Adus | Jan 15 13:26 |
| Adus | oiaohm: Yes it is, what makes software different to assets? Absolutely nothing except your perception. | Jan 15 13:26 |
| Adus | yes, the MMO model is a genius way to do things | Jan 15 13:26 |
| Adus | but there is only 1 big player :p | Jan 15 13:26 |
| Diablo-D3 | Adus: so, basically, if microsoft keeps pushing away people who want to develop on their machines.... they're fucked | Jan 15 13:26 |
| MinceR | that's a "genius way" only in the business sense | Jan 15 13:26 |
| oiaohm | The licence is against setting up your own non approved servers with the media. Adus | Jan 15 13:26 |
| Diablo-D3 | after awhile, there will be no "old school" closed source developers | Jan 15 13:26 |
| MinceR | not letting anyone run a server constrains innovation a lot. | Jan 15 13:26 |
| oiaohm | Not against users running there own games in local lans where it cannot be found or policed Adus | Jan 15 13:27 |
| Diablo-D3 | Microsoft, at their current rate, is dead. | Jan 15 13:27 |
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| Diablo-D3 | And I don't particularly want to see Microsoft die | Jan 15 13:27 |
| MinceR | i do | Jan 15 13:27 |
| oiaohm | Open Source guys are head of you at reducing the numbers of people they have to hunt down. Adus | Jan 15 13:27 |
| Adus | I think you underestimate the push from within certain departments MinceR. | Jan 15 13:27 |
| *cubezzz shrugs | Jan 15 13:27 | |
| Diablo-D3 | I don't. They have a lot of people, they have a lot of money, and they could actually go off and write software that isn't shit. | Jan 15 13:27 |
| MinceR | Adus: do you think the likes of ballmer even cares about that push? | Jan 15 13:28 |
| Diablo-D3 | I'm not anti-closed source | Jan 15 13:28 |
| MinceR | Adus: or even notices it? | Jan 15 13:28 |
| Diablo-D3 | I buy closed source software | Jan 15 13:28 |
| Adus | MinceR: Ballmer won't be around forever. | Jan 15 13:28 |
| Adus | And ultimately it's the shareholders who decide | Jan 15 13:28 |
| MinceR | Adus: then he'll be replaced by yet another of his kind | Jan 15 13:28 |
| Diablo-D3 | but do you know who's software I buy? companies who's software correctly runs on linux. | Jan 15 13:28 |
| MinceR | Adus: just like gates | Jan 15 13:28 |
| cubezzz | there's only one true unopenable app: tax programs | Jan 15 13:28 |
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| cubezzz | no one wants to work on those | Jan 15 13:28 |
| Diablo-D3 | cubezzz: hahaha | Jan 15 13:28 |
| oiaohm | Adus: How can you enforce against billions? At some point there is just too many people to enforce your copyright against. | Jan 15 13:28 |
| Adus | MinceR: Well, that remains to be seen. | Jan 15 13:28 |
| Diablo-D3 | that is sadly true | Jan 15 13:28 |
| Diablo-D3 | I agree with oiaohm btw | Jan 15 13:29 |
| oiaohm | Adus: That is what the Open Source people avoid. | Jan 15 13:29 |
| MinceR | Adus: who are the majority shareholders? | Jan 15 13:29 |
| Diablo-D3 | if the entire world culture changes, how do you arrest everybody alive? | Jan 15 13:29 |
| MinceR | i suspect the m$ inner circle still owns 51% or more. | Jan 15 13:29 |
| Diablo-D3 | your only choice is to evolve or die. | Jan 15 13:29 |
| oiaohm | Redhat sells access rights to there update servers. Not the Redhat OS it self. | Jan 15 13:29 |
| Adus | oiaohm: Ultimately we all want the same thing, we want a sustainable model of software development and distribution, which is both fair to the developer and end-user. | Jan 15 13:29 |
| oiaohm | You need updates don't you. | Jan 15 13:29 |
| oiaohm | Ie what are updates other than support for the product. | Jan 15 13:30 |
| Adus | We just disagree about how to get there, but I have no doubt we will all arrive on something one day. | Jan 15 13:30 |
| oiaohm | Open Source has purely focused in on support because it gives us the least numbers of people to police. | Jan 15 13:30 |
| oiaohm | and causes less people to hide from us and not submit bug reports. | Jan 15 13:30 |
| oiaohm | also causes less people to steal. | Jan 15 13:31 |
| Diablo-D3 | Adus: are you pro or anti foss? | Jan 15 13:31 |
| Adus | Diablo-D3: Neither really. I am not anti-foss, nor am I pro. | Jan 15 13:31 |
| Adus | I think there is a place for it. | Jan 15 13:31 |
| cubezzz | it's not stealing, how can you steal an intangible object? | Jan 15 13:31 |
| DaemonFC | http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-eREiQhBDIk | Jan 15 13:31 |
| phIRCe-local | Title: YouTube- Falling Down - I want breakfast .::. Size~: 120.62 KB | Jan 15 13:31 |
| Diablo-D3 | I think there is a place for Microsoft at the table, imo | Jan 15 13:31 |
| MinceR | Diablo-D3: i think he's the "i love FLOSS, BUT..." type | Jan 15 13:31 |
| Diablo-D3 | they just refuse to come. | Jan 15 13:31 |
| oiaohm | Closed source model followers will hae to follow the open source way or run into the problem of not having the resources to enforce licence. Adus | Jan 15 13:31 |
| MinceR | m$ would only have a place at the table if they were capable and willing to develop something of value | Jan 15 13:32 |
| Adus | I didn't come to work for Microsoft instead of Google because I fundamentally disagree with how google support foss etc. I came because the job paid more money and was more interesting. | Jan 15 13:32 |
| Adus | That's the simple truth of the matter :p | Jan 15 13:32 |
| MinceR | and they are neither | Jan 15 13:32 |
| cubezzz | $$$ over all eh? | Jan 15 13:32 |
| Adus | I'll work for anyone if they pay me enough and it's an interesting job/project. | Jan 15 13:32 |
| Adus | Yes, and I make no apologies for that. | Jan 15 13:32 |
| MinceR | Adus: well, at least m$ supports FLOSS... oh, wait | Jan 15 13:32 |
| oiaohm | What is the one problem here with closed source. | Jan 15 13:32 |
| cubezzz | closed source is crap, you can't do your own fixes | Jan 15 13:33 |
| oiaohm | Adus you get paid once to write the software how many times with closed source does that work end up being paid for. | Jan 15 13:33 |
| Adus | oiaohm: What does that matter? | Jan 15 13:33 |
| oiaohm | Its the major reason why Open Source in large companies is growing. Costs. | Jan 15 13:34 |
| oiaohm | It so simple with closed source to over charge. | Jan 15 13:35 |
| Adus | it's also the reason that games are a good thing to invest in, because generally you can make money using that model. | Jan 15 13:35 |
| oiaohm | At this stage it not simple for people to create there own games. | Jan 15 13:36 |
| Adus | A popular game like Fable might cost you 20 million to develop | Jan 15 13:36 |
| oiaohm | today yes. | Jan 15 13:36 |
| cubezzz | people used to write their own games all the time | Jan 15 13:36 |
| Adus | Yep, but that's not practical these days | Jan 15 13:37 |
| Adus | they are very large teams | Jan 15 13:37 |
| oiaohm | Long term the practical side of it will return. | Jan 15 13:37 |
| Adus | I doubt that, the industry is moving in the opposite direction. People like MS, Sony, EA and Activision dominate now | Jan 15 13:37 |
| oiaohm | Closed source only can use there model while it not cheep to compete with. | Jan 15 13:38 |
| Adus | The games industry will end up like the movie business | Jan 15 13:38 |
| oiaohm | You are not watching the movie business. | Jan 15 13:38 |
| Adus | You'll have a few independants, and a few very large publishers | Jan 15 13:38 |
| Adus | and that'll be it. | Jan 15 13:38 |
| oiaohm | More and more there development of 3d movies are being based on open source software. | Jan 15 13:38 |
| *Omar87 (n=quassel@79.173.254.16) has joined #boycottnovell | Jan 15 13:39 | |
| Adus | oiaohm: That wasn't my point, I was simply referring to layout in terms of how big the companies are etc | Jan 15 13:39 |
| oiaohm | Now those same movie companies are now wanting to reuse there created movie media straight up to create games and are turning to open source to do it. | Jan 15 13:39 |
| Adus | I don't deny games are likely to use more and more middleware, some of it open-source | Jan 15 13:39 |
| oiaohm | So are funding open source project like blender movie and game projects. | Jan 15 13:39 |
| Adus | no one disputes that. | Jan 15 13:39 |
| Adus | For instance, we use Lua. | Jan 15 13:40 |
| oiaohm | end result simpler for everyone to make games. | Jan 15 13:40 |
| oiaohm | High end and lowend. | Jan 15 13:40 |
| Adus | oiaohm: Yep, but that's rarely the source of costs in games dev | Jan 15 13:40 |
| Adus | Ok, so big companies like MS have their own engines etc, but most companies don't. | Jan 15 13:40 |
| Adus | Most companies build on existing middleware | Jan 15 13:41 |
| oiaohm | You are aware how many model makers blender has that gives models away for nothing. | Jan 15 13:41 |
| oiaohm | Just at this stage for most of them it too complex for them to team up and make games because they are artists not coders. | Jan 15 13:41 |
| Adus | Very few decent models which are modelled correectly, textured correctly, rigged and animated etc | Jan 15 13:41 |
| Adus | there's a lot more than just creating the art and software. | Jan 15 13:41 |
| MinceR | Adus: do you think the movie industry has reached a stable state? :> | Jan 15 13:41 |
| Adus | Not at all. | Jan 15 13:42 |
| Adus | But the games industry is heading in the same direction the movie industry is in at the moment. | Jan 15 13:42 |
| Adus | I actually think that's a bad thing | Jan 15 13:42 |
| oiaohm | Adus: common in the blender world for modelled correctly and textured correctly. Tools to simplfy rigging and animation next version of blender. | Jan 15 13:42 |
| Adus | I'd like to see far more independent game developers with innovative ideas. World of Goo, Braid etc. | Jan 15 13:42 |
| DaemonFC | Adus: Crapping everything up (for themselves) with DRM | Jan 15 13:43 |
| Adus | But that seems to be diminishing. | Jan 15 13:43 |
| DaemonFC | pissing off former loyal customers | Jan 15 13:43 |
| DaemonFC | suing people just to make examples of them | Jan 15 13:43 |
| oiaohm | Adus: Xbox and PS3 change for independant developers to be on there. | Jan 15 13:43 |
| DaemonFC | corrupting our laws with their bribed politicians | Jan 15 13:43 |
| oiaohm | Simple problem here lot of independants don't have the money Adus | Jan 15 13:43 |
| Adus | Well, Xbox 360 does have XNA. | Jan 15 13:43 |
| oiaohm | XNA you still have to pay to use it. Adus | Jan 15 13:44 |
| DaemonFC | Adus: Microsoft is a lot like that | Jan 15 13:44 |
| DaemonFC | but so is the movie cartel | Jan 15 13:44 |
| Adus | Not for windows oiaohm, and the Xbox version is very cheap | Jan 15 13:44 |
| Adus | it's absurdly cheap compared to getting your hands on a devkit from sony etc | Jan 15 13:44 |
| DaemonFC | the XBOX is a cheap pile of shit | Jan 15 13:44 |
| oiaohm | Also its not cross platform Adus | Jan 15 13:44 |
| DaemonFC | they sell it overpriced is all | Jan 15 13:44 |
| MinceR | the expensive part is buying new xboxes after the previous ones all fry themselves, then? | Jan 15 13:45 |
| Adus | oiaohm: Nor is libgcm on PS3 or the graphics layer on the Wii. | Jan 15 13:45 |
| oiaohm | So if you game is good and you build it in XNA you cannot get onto lots of markets. Adus | Jan 15 13:45 |
| DaemonFC | MinceR: They buy them from China, they were put together with prison, slave, and child labor | Jan 15 13:45 |
| DaemonFC | probably doesn't cost much | Jan 15 13:45 |
| Adus | You can hit 2 markets oiaohm, Windows and Xbox 360, which are pretty big. | Jan 15 13:45 |
| MinceR | DaemonFC: yet m$ puts a large premium on those prices | Jan 15 13:45 |
| DaemonFC | probably the biggest costs in the entire equation is shipping the piles of crap | Jan 15 13:46 |
| oiaohm | Not enough Adus | Jan 15 13:46 |
| DaemonFC | across the sea, across the country to Texas, etc. | Jan 15 13:46 |
| oiaohm | You leave out marks for cut downs on phones. Adus | Jan 15 13:46 |
| Adus | I'm not saying it's perfect oiaohm, but compared to Sony and Nintendo, we've done a damn sight more in supporting indies | Jan 15 13:46 |
| DaemonFC | I would not be able to name any other piece of consumer hardware with an 87.5% failure rate | Jan 15 13:47 |
| Adus | DaemonFC: Yes, we know, you think the xbox hardware is unreliable. I don't care. :p | Jan 15 13:47 |
| DaemonFC | the XBOX 360 is the only one I know of where if the failure rate was a congressional majority, you could break any veto | Jan 15 13:47 |
| DaemonFC | no, I think it's a fucking pile of garbage | Jan 15 13:47 |
| DaemonFC | that's what I think | Jan 15 13:47 |
| MinceR | Adus: yes, we know, you live in a dream world where the xbox failure rate is below 50% | Jan 15 13:48 |
| Adus | You obviously haven't seen the stats for the new hardware configurations | Jan 15 13:48 |
| DaemonFC | How many XBOX 360's eventually overheat? pretty much all of them | Jan 15 13:48 |
| DaemonFC | What's the XBOX 360 mean time between failure? About 6 months | Jan 15 13:48 |
| Adus | DaemonFC: Not in my experience. | Jan 15 13:48 |
| DaemonFC | What is Microsoft Support? Some guy that doesn't speak English who insults you | Jan 15 13:49 |
| oiaohm | Yet blender is doing more. Like working on a unified engine for all markets that runs there blend files. Adus | Jan 15 13:49 |
| MinceR | Adus: you don't read the news, do you? | Jan 15 13:49 |
| DaemonFC | Microsoft Support is worse than being on the phone with Comcast | Jan 15 13:49 |
| DaemonFC | nobody knows what to tell you, you get told something else every time they transfer you | Jan 15 13:50 |
| DaemonFC | they try to accuse you of breaking your $300 XBOX | Jan 15 13:50 |
| oiaohm | Adus: even that is means building a engine under BSD licence so it can be used on platforms that don't allow source code releases like your XBOX. | Jan 15 13:50 |
| MinceR | Adus: http://kotaku.com/5339555/report-xbox-360-failure-rate-over-50-percent | Jan 15 13:50 |
| phIRCe-local | Title: Report: Xbox 360 Failure Rate Over 50 Percent - RROD - Kotaku .::. Size~: 61.26 KB | Jan 15 13:50 |
| DaemonFC | they were telling me I was overheating my XBOX by placing it on thick carpeting, funny that my floor is hard wood | Jan 15 13:50 |
| oiaohm | You wonder were the independants have gone. You killed them they depended on open source to fill in there lack of resources at times. | Jan 15 13:50 |
| DaemonFC | ooops | Jan 15 13:51 |
| DaemonFC | retards | Jan 15 13:51 |
| DaemonFC | you have to wonder how they hire so many bullshit artists | Jan 15 13:51 |
| oiaohm | Adus: About time you see that Open Source is a critical part of the market. Forbid it from the market you kill off smaller players. | Jan 15 13:52 |
| schestowitz | remember that lady who spoke about Monsanto (wallc did transcribe her text)? She has sued Monsanto in India :-) \0/ | Jan 15 13:52 |
| Adus | http://uk.gamespot.com/news/6216691.html | Jan 15 13:52 |
| phIRCe-local | Title: Xbox 360 failure rate 23.7%, PS3 10%, Wii 2.7% - Study - News at GameSpot .::. Size~: 192.29 KB | Jan 15 13:52 |
| DaemonFC | it goes from "You're fucking it up!" to "That's an isolated incident", then the "isolated incident" is over half the consoles out there | Jan 15 13:52 |
| oiaohm | It also depends where you do the numbers Adus | Jan 15 13:53 |
| DaemonFC | I trust the people that say it happens over and over and over again | Jan 15 13:53 |
| DaemonFC | because that's what my numbers looked like | Jan 15 13:53 |
| MinceR | m$ has their "independent analysts" to make up their numbers for them | Jan 15 13:53 |
| Adus | You know better than to think I can comment on those stats anyway. | Jan 15 13:53 |
| oiaohm | Around I know a lot of people who have giving up on Xboxs because the failure rate is shocking if you don't have aircon. Adus | Jan 15 13:53 |
| DaemonFC | Microsoft is whitewashing it with employees like Adus | Jan 15 13:53 |
| DaemonFC | trying to anyway | Jan 15 13:53 |
| oiaohm | I guess colder areas have lower failure rates Adus | Jan 15 13:53 |
| oiaohm | It would be interesting if MS maped out where the failures are happening. Could be that some areas need models with different cooling setups. Adus | Jan 15 13:54 |
| DaemonFC | give up, it's already a scandal, people already know the XBOX 360 is the definition of defective | Jan 15 13:54 |
| Adus | DaemonFC: I have never seen a statement from Microsoft whitewashing it, they have never ever denied the problem exists. | Jan 15 13:54 |
| DaemonFC | it's not a state secret anymore | Jan 15 13:54 |
| DaemonFC | Microsoft was denying it | Jan 15 13:54 |
| oiaohm | Adus: I have seen the numbers all over the place with Xbox failures. | Jan 15 13:54 |
| DaemonFC | for well over a year | Jan 15 13:54 |
| DaemonFC | deny deny deny | Jan 15 13:54 |
| DaemonFC | blame the customers | Jan 15 13:54 |
| oiaohm | Heat + salt seams to be the worse Adus | Jan 15 13:54 |
| DaemonFC | deny some more | Jan 15 13:55 |
| DaemonFC | Microsoft does not take responsibility until they just can't shout over you with their lies | Jan 15 13:55 |
| DaemonFC | or until their documents get hauled into court | Jan 15 13:55 |
| oiaohm | I wonder if the boards don't have a good enough coating to stay in one piece in that combination Adus | Jan 15 13:55 |
| DaemonFC | and become public knowledge | Jan 15 13:55 |
| Adus | DaemonFC: That is not true, I had my launch xbox fail without a couple of moneths and they replaced it without any issue | Jan 15 13:55 |
| Adus | since then I have not had a failure. | Jan 15 13:55 |
| DaemonFC | you work for them | Jan 15 13:55 |
| DaemonFC | why wouldn't they? | Jan 15 13:56 |
| Adus | No, I didn't then. | Jan 15 13:56 |
| oiaohm | What temp range has it been in Adus | Jan 15 13:56 |
| Adus | oiaohm: UK :p | Jan 15 13:56 |
| oiaohm | Ok cold ish | Jan 15 13:56 |
| Adus | But DaemonFC, Microsoft have never denied the problem exists. | Jan 15 13:56 |
| DaemonFC | yeah | Jan 15 13:56 |
| DaemonFC | from launch in 2005, to clear into 2007 | Jan 15 13:56 |
| DaemonFC | they lied constantly | Jan 15 13:56 |
| oiaohm | I see the failure rate increase massivally in areas with 40+ temps. | Jan 15 13:56 |
| Adus | http://pastebin.com/d79c962d6 | Jan 15 13:56 |
| phIRCe-local | Title: pastebin - collaborative debugging tool .::. Size~: 14.51 KB | Jan 15 13:56 |
| Adus | I don't see how that is a denial exactly? :p | Jan 15 13:56 |
| oiaohm | With people without aircon Adus | Jan 15 13:56 |
| Adus | Which if the official MS statement on the issue | Jan 15 13:57 |
| DaemonFC | How do you know a Microsoft PR spokeperson is lying? His/Her lips are moving | Jan 15 13:57 |
| oiaohm | We do see kind of the same effect with particular models of cpu chips as well Adus | Jan 15 13:57 |
| Adus | oiaohm: Yeh, the new boards are better I hear | Jan 15 13:57 |
| oiaohm | Only one problem with xbox 360 we cannot change cpu to use the applications. | Jan 15 13:57 |
| Adus | though again, not really allowed to comment :p | Jan 15 13:57 |
| DaemonFC | they have to either be overwhelmed or caught red handed to come out with the truth | Jan 15 13:57 |
| oiaohm | About 4 months compared to 1 so they have improved it a bit but not enough Adus | Jan 15 13:58 |
| DaemonFC | if it really was an isolated incident, they could have kept it buried | Jan 15 13:58 |
| Adus | DaemonFC: They extended the warranty to 3 years within the first year. | Jan 15 13:58 |
| DaemonFC | Adus: Why not just....not cheap out in the first place? | Jan 15 13:58 |
| oiaohm | But where you are that improvement could be enough to last for ever. Adus | Jan 15 13:58 |
| DaemonFC | Build something to last | Jan 15 13:58 |
| DaemonFC | I know it's not Microsoft's forte, but damn | Jan 15 13:58 |
| Adus | DaemonFC: Well, we all know there is obviously a design flaw. That's unfortunate. | Jan 15 13:59 |
| Adus | But MS had no legal obligation to extend the warranty to 3 years | Jan 15 13:59 |
| Adus | for RROD and E74 | Jan 15 13:59 |
| DaemonFC | Adus: Everything Microsoft builds is a tinderbox | Jan 15 13:59 |
| oiaohm | Its the advantage japan has building consoles. | Jan 15 13:59 |
| DaemonFC | it's just as simple as that | Jan 15 13:59 |
| *trmanco (n=trmanco@unaffiliated/trmanco) has joined #boycottnovell | Jan 15 13:59 | |
| oiaohm | There weather gives you everything. Adus | Jan 15 13:59 |
| oiaohm | Unless you build the console well it will not live. | Jan 15 13:59 |
| oiaohm | Basically I think MS Xbox designes need to be moved to a tougher climent. | Jan 15 14:00 |
| DaemonFC | I don't understand how any company with a production environment could use Windows | Jan 15 14:00 |
| oiaohm | More have to than want to. | Jan 15 14:00 |
| DaemonFC | it's good enough to be standard consumer fodder, as in "Oh shit, it BSOD'd while I was playing my game, damn!" | Jan 15 14:01 |
| amarsh04 | without airconditioning, even an insulated house can get to 35 C inside during a heatwave here | Jan 15 14:01 |
| oiaohm | Goverments being a prick with like access databases you have to run and submit data in access format. | Jan 15 14:01 |
| DaemonFC | Hospitals use Windows though | Jan 15 14:01 |
| DaemonFC | it's how malware gets in and steals patient records | Jan 15 14:01 |
| DaemonFC | Conficker even infected CAT scan machines | Jan 15 14:01 |
| oiaohm | Really I want to know were exactly are the xbox 360 designers. It could completely explain the verable failure rates. | Jan 15 14:02 |
| oiaohm | Ie what city or cities would be enough. | Jan 15 14:02 |
| DaemonFC | oiaohm: If I unleashed it onto the world, I wouldn't want anyone to know where I was at | Jan 15 14:02 |
| DaemonFC | :D | Jan 15 14:02 |
| DaemonFC | afraid they'd find me and bludgeon me to death with the power brick | Jan 15 14:03 |
| oiaohm | I really suspect it a testing issue DaemonFC | Jan 15 14:04 |
| oiaohm | With the base design. | Jan 15 14:04 |
| oiaohm | followed up with cutting construction costs too much. | Jan 15 14:04 |
| oiaohm | Knowing where the designers were would enable me to work out a rough global map of problistic failure rates then see if it matches. | Jan 15 14:05 |
| DaemonFC | make it cheap, rush the design, cut corners, run it hot, and finish it off with Microsoft software that has 50,000 bugs but ships that way anyway | Jan 15 14:05 |
| DaemonFC | I believe that's what happened | Jan 15 14:05 |
| oiaohm | runs hot is not a issue if the temp is cool enough. | Jan 15 14:05 |
| oiaohm | Ie overheating would not show. | Jan 15 14:05 |
| DaemonFC | they shipped Windows 2000 with over 60,000 bugs that they were aware of | Jan 15 14:06 |
| oiaohm | Yet anyone out side that correctly cold enough area would be screwed. | Jan 15 14:06 |
| oiaohm | Since the cooling system would be way too light. | Jan 15 14:06 |
| DaemonFC | I remember people saying that it was winter and that they had to hang the power brick out their window | Jan 15 14:06 |
| oiaohm | And I expect the expand of cooling system and temp droping of cpus would also follow the same kind of mapping. | Jan 15 14:06 |
| DaemonFC | else the 360 would crash again | Jan 15 14:06 |
| Adus | The 360 was designed in Seattle | Jan 15 14:07 |
| oiaohm | You have centeral heating right. | Jan 15 14:07 |
| DaemonFC | Adus: I understand they have a lot of cocaine in Seattle | Jan 15 14:07 |
| Adus | I don't live in Seattle, I'm US Based | Jan 15 14:07 |
| DaemonFC | so I accept your statement as presented | Jan 15 14:07 |
| Adus | I work for the XBLPG, not the XBDG | Jan 15 14:08 |
| Adus | :p | Jan 15 14:08 |
| oiaohm | Seattle's hottest official recorded temperature was 103 °F (39.4 °C) on July 29, 2009;[79] the coldest recorded temperature was 0 °F (–18 °C) on January 31, 1950 | Jan 15 14:08 |
| DaemonFC | is that the part where they sell you the other half of your game in microtransactions and take in $60 a year to play online or be able to use Netflix? | Jan 15 14:08 |
| oiaohm | Yep there is a problem. | Jan 15 14:08 |
| Adus | DaemonFC: What? | Jan 15 14:08 |
| oiaohm | Hotest recored temp here is a nasty 46 C | Jan 15 14:09 |
| DaemonFC | XBOX Live | Jan 15 14:09 |
| Adus | I work for the Xbox LIVE! Platform Group | Jan 15 14:09 |
| Adus | I work on server-side architecture | Jan 15 14:09 |
| DaemonFC | yeah, they manage to run off with a lot of money for shit that should be free or in the game already | Jan 15 14:09 |
| DaemonFC | 200 microsoft points for horse armor :D | Jan 15 14:09 |
| oiaohm | And more north it gets worse. | Jan 15 14:09 |
| Adus | You can hardly blame Microsoft for what third-party developers decide to sell as DLC | Jan 15 14:09 |
| Adus | the PS3 has exactly the same :p | Jan 15 14:10 |
| amarsh04 | hottest recorded here is 47.7 C | Jan 15 14:10 |
| DaemonFC | what these bastards do is they sell you all this downloadable crap | Jan 15 14:10 |
| Adus | HAve you played 1 vs 100? | Jan 15 14:10 |
| oiaohm | And it nothing for us in summer to get 1 or 2 42 C days. | Jan 15 14:10 |
| DaemonFC | then a year later the game gets revisioned and ships with all the crap you just paid twice as much for | Jan 15 14:10 |
| oiaohm | More north the worse it gets. | Jan 15 14:10 |
| amarsh04 | and minimum daily temperature sometimes being as high as 30 C | Jan 15 14:11 |
| amarsh04 | or more | Jan 15 14:11 |
| Adus | I have to say I was pretty disapointed with activision decided to *up* the RRP for MW2 | Jan 15 14:11 |
| Adus | RRPs should be going down | Jan 15 14:11 |
| DaemonFC | Microsoft employees are getting paid to FUD Netflix on Wii, acting like there was actually much HD content on Netflix | Jan 15 14:11 |
| DaemonFC | there wouldn't be because it costs more to stream | Jan 15 14:11 |
| Diablo-D3 | [08:30:48] <MinceR> m$ would only have a place at the table if they were capable and willing to develop something of value | Jan 15 14:12 |
| Diablo-D3 | they're capable | Jan 15 14:12 |
| Diablo-D3 | the question is are they willing | Jan 15 14:12 |
| oiaohm | Heck some of our places like adelaide australia that are low down in australia due to desert can get 42 C + in summber Adus | Jan 15 14:12 |
| Adus | The Zune Marketplace on Xbox 360 has 1080p streaming content | Jan 15 14:12 |
| DaemonFC | Zune? That still exists? | Jan 15 14:12 |
| oiaohm | The developers of the Xbox 360 simple were not in a tough enough temp zone Adus | Jan 15 14:12 |
| Adus | Zune is the media brand, yup. | Jan 15 14:12 |
| DaemonFC | with its HD radio to pick up all dozens stations in the US | Jan 15 14:12 |
| DaemonFC | *dozen | Jan 15 14:12 |
| oiaohm | Next one move them for testing to a nasty climent please Adus | Jan 15 14:12 |
| oiaohm | That sould reduce the failure rates. Adus | Jan 15 14:13 |
| DaemonFC | Adus: Why can't Microsoft build anything that's not totally lulzy? | Jan 15 14:13 |
| Adus | I don't know much about the Zune hardware DaemonFC, that's not available in teh UK | Jan 15 14:13 |
| Adus | but "Zune" is the media brand, not just the hardware | Jan 15 14:13 |
| DaemonFC | Adus: I don't want a Zune, it has zero value to me right off the bat | Jan 15 14:13 |
| Diablo-D3 | zune hardware is pretty boring and convensional | Jan 15 14:14 |
| DaemonFC | I don't have any MP3 files and I'll be damned if I'm making a WMA | Jan 15 14:14 |
| Adus | Well, that's fine. I'm not saying you should get one, I just said I don't know anything about it. | Jan 15 14:14 |
| Adus | I was simply saying that Zune is the media brand, and there is 1080p streaming on the Xbox 360 Zune Marketplace | Jan 15 14:14 |
| oiaohm | Adus: unstable consoles should be a worry to you guys doing the server side. | Jan 15 14:14 |
| Diablo-D3 | yeah, zune is ~= itunes basically | Jan 15 14:14 |
| Adus | oiaohm: Why? | Jan 15 14:15 |
| Diablo-D3 | it covers the whole branding, not just the devices under it | Jan 15 14:15 |
| DaemonFC | Zune is DRMlicious I'm sure | Jan 15 14:15 |
| DaemonFC | even more so than Apple | Jan 15 14:15 |
| DaemonFC | Microsoft is in love with DRM, making sure they steal your fair use rights | Jan 15 14:15 |
| oiaohm | Some of the xbox's to die here are ram failures not cpu. So you could end up with xbox basically fuzzing the network. Adus | Jan 15 14:15 |
| DaemonFC | all that good stuff | Jan 15 14:15 |
| Diablo-D3 | oiaohm: huh, thats problematic | Jan 15 14:15 |
| Adus | oiaohm: Oh, we handle that just fine. | Jan 15 14:15 |
| Adus | SNL handles all that :) | Jan 15 14:16 |
| Adus | Not a system I have a whole lot to do with. | Jan 15 14:16 |
| DaemonFC | making sure that it doesn't work without Windows is just a bonus | Jan 15 14:16 |
| Diablo-D3 | I wonder why its the ram failing | Jan 15 14:16 |
| Diablo-D3 | it shouldn't be an overheating problem | Jan 15 14:16 |
| oiaohm | temp Diablo-D3 | Jan 15 14:16 |
| Diablo-D3 | 360s simply dont get that hot | Jan 15 14:16 |
| oiaohm | There are quite a few brands of ram that don't last well in my area. | Jan 15 14:16 |
| Diablo-D3 | they'd have to be using chips that aren't rated for the specs they're running them at to begin with | Jan 15 14:16 |
| DaemonFC | Adus: What would you say to the poor bastards who actually amassed a music library from MSN Music? | Jan 15 14:16 |
| Diablo-D3 | oiaohm: probably they're scrap chips then | Jan 15 14:16 |
| Adus | Generally the 360 fails because the solder arouund the GPU melts, and the tracks get inconsistent connections | Jan 15 14:16 |
| DaemonFC | they got scammed, plain and simple | Jan 15 14:17 |
| Adus | Essentialy "disconnected" from the board, that's why putting them in the oven, or using the towel trick will fix them for a while | Jan 15 14:17 |
| Adus | super-heating ti again evens out the tracks | Jan 15 14:17 |
| Diablo-D3 | Adus: ugh, I hate that problem | Jan 15 14:17 |
| *Diablo-D3 has had to fix boards with that | Jan 15 14:17 | |
| Diablo-D3 | its usually the super-cheap chinese shit that does that | Jan 15 14:17 |
| DaemonFC | the solder around the GPU melts | Jan 15 14:18 |
| Adus | The reason is happens is because in order to fit the GPU where they wanted (under the DVD drive) they had to shrink the heatsink | Jan 15 14:18 |
| DaemonFC | that's.....wow | Jan 15 14:18 |
| Adus | puttign the 2 hottest components together was a bad mistake | Jan 15 14:18 |
| oiaohm | That is a heat disposal problem. | Jan 15 14:18 |
| DaemonFC | that's bad even by Microsoft standards | Jan 15 14:18 |
| Adus | and that's the design flaw | Jan 15 14:18 |
| Adus | :p | Jan 15 14:18 |
| Diablo-D3 | Adus: actually | Jan 15 14:18 |
| Diablo-D3 | the design flaw is its not a soc. | Jan 15 14:18 |
| oiaohm | Yep colder area not as big as issue Adus | Jan 15 14:18 |
| Diablo-D3 | the 360 is just a horrid design | Jan 15 14:18 |
| oiaohm | Problem is most of the world is hotter than where they designed it. | Jan 15 14:18 |
| Diablo-D3 | and they keep using it over and over | Jan 15 14:18 |
| DaemonFC | Adus: I actually had that happen once, on a video card, it was only a $20 model | Jan 15 14:18 |
| Diablo-D3 | oiaohm: no | Jan 15 14:18 |
| DaemonFC | but the fan wires melted and came off | Jan 15 14:19 |
| Adus | Well, if they had turned the board around and used the proper heatsink, it would be pretty much fine. | Jan 15 14:19 |
| DaemonFC | then the GPU fried itself | Jan 15 14:19 |
| DaemonFC | lol | Jan 15 14:19 |
| Diablo-D3 | they could use pure copper heatsinks | Jan 15 14:19 |
| Diablo-D3 | but it'd also weigh like a pound moe | Jan 15 14:19 |
| Adus | But they worked out it's cheaper to replace the consoles, that rebuild all the manufacturing equipment etc :( | Jan 15 14:19 |
| Diablo-D3 | Adus: yes, but they'd have to hire someone thats not an idiot | Jan 15 14:19 |
| Adus | The new 65nm and coming 45nm chips have improved it a lot. | Jan 15 14:19 |
| Diablo-D3 | and btw, thats whats wrong with microsoft | Jan 15 14:19 |
| Diablo-D3 | [09:18:04] <Adus> But they worked out it's cheaper to replace the consoles, that rebuild all the manufacturing equipment etc :( | Jan 15 14:20 |
| Diablo-D3 | that right there | Jan 15 14:20 |
| Diablo-D3 | that hits it right on the nose | Jan 15 14:20 |
| Diablo-D3 | in my part of the world, we either do it right or we dont do it at all | Jan 15 14:20 |
| Diablo-D3 | period | Jan 15 14:20 |
| DaemonFC | Adus: So much for people that want to keep their console and games for 20 years after you quit making them, like owners of hardware from Nintendo, Sega, and for the most part Sony | Jan 15 14:20 |
| Diablo-D3 | you dont cut corners, you dont do it half assed | Jan 15 14:20 |
| DaemonFC | right? | Jan 15 14:20 |
| Adus | DaemonFC: hehe, I have like 6 dreamcasts | Jan 15 14:20 |
| DaemonFC | I still have consoles from the 1980s that still work | Jan 15 14:20 |
| Adus | Still do dreamcast dev in my spare time | Jan 15 14:20 |
| Adus | fun stuff | Jan 15 14:20 |
| Diablo-D3 | dreamcasts were like the best console ever | Jan 15 14:20 |
| DaemonFC | and 7 XBOX 360s died inside 4 years | Jan 15 14:20 |
| DaemonFC | is that acceptable? no | Jan 15 14:21 |
| Adus | Thing the earliest console I still have is my Sega megadrive | Jan 15 14:21 |
| Diablo-D3 | heh | Jan 15 14:21 |
| Diablo-D3 | snes > genesis | Jan 15 14:21 |
| Diablo-D3 | clearly | Jan 15 14:21 |
| Adus | DaemonFC: The thing is, the PS3 and Wiis are all that much more reliable in terms of those sort of times | Jan 15 14:21 |
| Diablo-D3 | Adus: btw, most of us have DaemonFC on ignore | Jan 15 14:21 |
| oiaohm | Earliest thing I have for gaming. | Jan 15 14:21 |
| Diablo-D3 | hes kind of trolltastic | Jan 15 14:21 |
| Adus | I think it's just a problem with the type of hardware that's in console these days | Jan 15 14:21 |
| DaemonFC | Adus: The PS3 is as powerful as the XBOX 360, or more (probably more) | Jan 15 14:21 |
| oiaohm | Is a old IBM xt that I use to enjoy digdug on. | Jan 15 14:21 |
| Diablo-D3 | Adus: but yeah, like, look at the first gens of the PS3 | Jan 15 14:21 |
| Adus | It's far less reliable, because it's essentially a PC with a PowerPC Chip :p | Jan 15 14:21 |
| DaemonFC | why aren't they dying right and left? | Jan 15 14:21 |
| Diablo-D3 | Adus: its HUGE | Jan 15 14:22 |
| Diablo-D3 | and you know why its huge? | Jan 15 14:22 |
| oiaohm | Adus: not exactly Xbox360 is a custom chip. | Jan 15 14:22 |
| Diablo-D3 | because sony managed to not fuck it up too badly. | Jan 15 14:22 |
| DaemonFC | Adus: There's nothing inherently wrong with PowerPC CPUs | Jan 15 14:22 |
| Diablo-D3 | btw, the 360 isnt too custom] | Jan 15 14:22 |
| DaemonFC | I have several of them | Jan 15 14:22 |
| oiaohm | Most PowerPC chips are highly dependanble. | Jan 15 14:22 |
| Adus | oiaohm: The Xbox 360 is a Xenon PowerPC Based chip. | Jan 15 14:22 |
| Diablo-D3 | they had IBM customize them a off the shelf chip | Jan 15 14:22 |
| Adus | I know everything there is to know about the Xenon :p | Jan 15 14:22 |
| Diablo-D3 | its an IBM design, its rather stable | Jan 15 14:22 |
| Adus | The PPU rarely fails, it's usually the GPU | Jan 15 14:22 |
| Diablo-D3 | I dont have a problem with the 360 hardware | Jan 15 14:23 |
| DaemonFC | Adus: It's basically a few G5 cores | Jan 15 14:23 |
| Adus | which in the 360, is an ATI card | Jan 15 14:23 |
| Diablo-D3 | its the way the fucking morons put it in the box | Jan 15 14:23 |
| DaemonFC | I know that's not exactly right, but I'm close | Jan 15 14:23 |
| Diablo-D3 | Adus: be glad its not nvidia | Jan 15 14:23 |
| Adus | DaemonFC: It has some major differences to standard PPC chips | Jan 15 14:23 |
| Diablo-D3 | your failure rate would exceed the number of consoles actually built | Jan 15 14:23 |
| DaemonFC | Adus: DRM | Jan 15 14:23 |
| DaemonFC | lockout keys | Jan 15 14:23 |
| DaemonFC | etc | Jan 15 14:23 |
| Adus | I was thinking more about the game specific improvements | Jan 15 14:23 |
| oiaohm | Yep DaemonFC all those feature add extra places for the CPU to fail. | Jan 15 14:23 |
| Adus | the main "DRM" feature is the eFuses, which is something in nearly all PPC chips | Jan 15 14:23 |
| DaemonFC | well, it supports Altivec, but that's not unique | Jan 15 14:24 |
| oiaohm | That the chip natively would not have. | Jan 15 14:24 |
| Adus | oiaohm: They replaced features rather than added them. | Jan 15 14:24 |
| Diablo-D3 | oiaohm: uh, you're full of shit dude | Jan 15 14:24 |
| Adus | Removed instruction re-ordering, to add a dot product pipeline etc | Jan 15 14:24 |
| Diablo-D3 | go back to CPU design 101 | Jan 15 14:24 |
| Diablo-D3 | Adus: actually, they didnt even add that | Jan 15 14:24 |
| Diablo-D3 | Adus: that was already there, but from a different product family | Jan 15 14:24 |
| DaemonFC | Adus: I actually like PowerPC from what I've seen of it | Jan 15 14:24 |
| DaemonFC | I have a dual G4 1 Ghz Mac | Jan 15 14:25 |
| Adus | Standard out of the box ppc chips do not have a dot product or vector compute pipeline last time I checked | Jan 15 14:25 |
| Adus | Diablo-D3: Oh, I don't doubt most of it's nto new, but the combination is unique | Jan 15 14:25 |
| Diablo-D3 | yeah, its a new fab | Jan 15 14:25 |
| Diablo-D3 | but the designs in it arent | Jan 15 14:25 |
| Diablo-D3 | its custom, but not new | Jan 15 14:25 |
| Adus | Why would they be? That's asking for trouble | Jan 15 14:25 |
| Diablo-D3 | well, the ps3 is more newer than the xenon is | Jan 15 14:25 |
| Diablo-D3 | they have that weird halfbreed cell in it | Jan 15 14:25 |
| Adus | Yeh, but the PPU core is essentially a xenon. | Jan 15 14:26 |
| Adus | The SPUs are unique admittedly. | Jan 15 14:26 |
| DaemonFC | it's got Cell, I think I'd rather have that than Xenon | Jan 15 14:26 |
| DaemonFC | if I was going to use it as a PC that is | Jan 15 14:26 |
| Diablo-D3 | normal cells == cell spus + two conventional 970fx cores | Jan 15 14:26 |
| Adus | DaemonFC: CELL is very hard to work with, before I was at MS I was at Codemasters and worked with the PS3 a lot | Jan 15 14:26 |
| Adus | it's an awesome piece of hardware, and a shoddy piece of software and sdk | Jan 15 14:26 |
| Diablo-D3 | ps3 cell == a butchered bus pipeline, same number of spus, the lightest PPC core ever slapped together | Jan 15 14:26 |
| Adus | the 360 is the opposite | Jan 15 14:26 |
| Adus | decent software and development kit, bad hardware. | Jan 15 14:27 |
| oiaohm | Diablo-D3: I said all those features added extra places to fail. ie design changes. I was not saying adding features as such. | Jan 15 14:27 |
| Diablo-D3 | every possible thing they could have removed from the 970 they did | Jan 15 14:27 |
| Diablo-D3 | oiaohm: the G5 is a very well understood design | Jan 15 14:27 |
| DaemonFC | well, Microsoft knows how to build an SDK, I would expect more out of them there than Sony | Jan 15 14:27 |
| Diablo-D3 | they've made like a billion G4 and G5 chips | Jan 15 14:27 |
| Diablo-D3 | they're used everywhere | Jan 15 14:27 |
| Adus | But yeh, as far as I know, the PPU in the 360 (Xenon) and hte PS3 | Jan 15 14:27 |
| Adus | are extremely reliable | Jan 15 14:27 |
| Adus | I'm not aware of any large scale CPU failues | Jan 15 14:27 |
| Adus | nearly always GPU | Jan 15 14:27 |
| Adus | or memory | Jan 15 14:28 |
| Diablo-D3 | especially in automotive and embedded work, that family of PPCs are used often | Jan 15 14:28 |
| Diablo-D3 | Adus: yeah | Jan 15 14:28 |
| Diablo-D3 | I trust IBM fabbers | Jan 15 14:28 |
| oiaohm | Same is true with a new combination arm chip even if all the parts are know just moving a few parts possition can make the difference between a well behaving chip and a prick. Diablo-D3 | Jan 15 14:28 |
| Diablo-D3 | they're very good at what they do | Jan 15 14:28 |
| DaemonFC | well, not cooling it properly will lead to failure | Jan 15 14:28 |
| Adus | The 360 also has unified memory. The PS3 has 256mb RAM and 256mb VRAM | Jan 15 14:28 |
| Adus | which was a mistake imho | Jan 15 14:28 |
| Adus | the 512mb unified on the 360 is far easier to work with for devs. | Jan 15 14:28 |
| Diablo-D3 | Adus: actually, thats a larger problem | Jan 15 14:28 |
| DaemonFC | I wonder if anyone at Microsoft actually turned one on and used it before shipping them | Jan 15 14:28 |
| oiaohm | Its alway the risk of a custom chip Diablo-D3. | Jan 15 14:28 |
| Diablo-D3 | Adus: its not the unified (or not) that causes the problems | Jan 15 14:28 |
| Diablo-D3 | Adus: its the fact that no one deploys a high end packetting bus network | Jan 15 14:29 |
| Diablo-D3 | Adus: you basically need an AMD solution to correctly fix this | Jan 15 14:29 |
| Adus | Diablo-D3: it causes a significant headache when you're targeting those platforms, especially because you tend to want more than 256mb for graphics related magic :p | Jan 15 14:29 |
| Diablo-D3 | normal AMD CPU -> hypertransport, gpu -> hypertransport | Jan 15 14:29 |
| DaemonFC | I'm not crazy about AMD or Intel | Jan 15 14:29 |
| DaemonFC | I just like Intel less | Jan 15 14:29 |
| Diablo-D3 | both the gpu and cpu use the same hypertransport memory controller | Jan 15 14:30 |
| oiaohm | PS3 core chip was used for processing before it become a PS3 chip basically the same chip that went into the PS3. So most of it glitches got rattled on in that process. Diablo-D3 | Jan 15 14:30 |
| Diablo-D3 | oiaohm: dude, shut up. | Jan 15 14:30 |
| Diablo-D3 | seriously, just shut up | Jan 15 14:30 |
| oiaohm | History of the chips Diablo-D3 | Jan 15 14:30 |
| Adus | I have no strong feelings for AMD or Intel. I tend to buy Intel stuff. | Jan 15 14:30 |
| Adus | Just because I always have, and I've never had a problem. | Jan 15 14:30 |
| Adus | Intel + nvidia | Jan 15 14:30 |
| Adus | is always my home combo | Jan 15 14:30 |
| Diablo-D3 | Adus: IBM does have the tech for this | Jan 15 14:30 |
| oiaohm | Wii and PS3 chip had history in it dia form before it entered the console. Diablo-D3 | Jan 15 14:30 |
| Diablo-D3 | Adus: POWER memory controllers on the newer revisions can talk to each other across the bus | Jan 15 14:31 |
| Adus | It actually really annoys me, because if it wasn't for the failure rate of the 360, it would walk all over the competition in terms of hardware configuration and SDK/Software | Jan 15 14:32 |
| Adus | It's just a real shame it has that one big flaw which hurts it so much | Jan 15 14:32 |
| Diablo-D3 | yes, and that is sad | Jan 15 14:32 |
| Diablo-D3 | its because some moron who doesnt understand hardware design made a decision | Jan 15 14:32 |
| Diablo-D3 | thats microsoft's story for the past 20 years | Jan 15 14:32 |
| Diablo-D3 | why do you think most of the ms talent quit and are now working at other companies? | Jan 15 14:33 |
| Diablo-D3 | they got tired of PHBs telling them what to do | Jan 15 14:33 |
| Adus | I mean the software, and the server-side stuff (Xbox Live) is not only superior, it's in another league, compared to the competition. | Jan 15 14:33 |
| Diablo-D3 | Adus: eh | Jan 15 14:33 |
| Diablo-D3 | its not _that_ good | Jan 15 14:33 |
| Adus | Diablo-D3: It really is. | Jan 15 14:34 |
| Diablo-D3 | but no one has anything I've been particularly impressed with | Jan 15 14:34 |
| Diablo-D3 | I'd much rather roll out my own custom software if I had to do that | Jan 15 14:34 |
| Adus | If you start to look at the technical limitations of PSN etc, you start to realise how superior xbox live really is | Jan 15 14:34 |
| Diablo-D3 | yes, but I'd never do business on either of them | Jan 15 14:35 |
| Diablo-D3 | the markets aren't big enough | Jan 15 14:35 |
| Adus | Some companies have been very succesful on XBLA | Jan 15 14:35 |
| Diablo-D3 | some yes. | Jan 15 14:35 |
| Adus | Shadowcomplex etc did very very well | Jan 15 14:35 |
| Diablo-D3 | even more have done better on Steam, for example | Jan 15 14:35 |
| *DaemonFC has quit (Remote closed the connection) | Jan 15 14:35 | |
| Diablo-D3 | if I was making a game right now, I'd be using Steam as my distribution system. | Jan 15 14:36 |
| -BNc/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] "The [desktop] share of #GNU #Linux reached the tipping point in 2009" http://ur1.ca/jwas | Jan 15 14:36 | |
| Adus | Diablo-D3: I'm not sure that's true. | Jan 15 14:36 |
| phIRCe-local | Title: Linux News: Community: On Pi, Paper Penguins and FOSS' Regal Potential .::. Size~: 63.74 KB | Jan 15 14:36 |
| Adus | I'd like to see your numbers. It's my understanding that Xbox live far outstrips steam in terms of top earners etc | Jan 15 14:36 |
| -BNc/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] Picture of the World’s Smallest #Linux Computer http://en.digitalkamera.com/smallest-linux-computer-in-the-world-pic | Jan 15 14:37 | |
| phIRCe-local | Title: Worlds Smallest Linux Computer and Linux Networking Server (pics) « DigitalKamera .::. Size~: 25.44 KB | Jan 15 14:37 |
| Diablo-D3 | Adus: depends how you look at it | Jan 15 14:37 |
| Adus | I could of course be wrong, it's not unheard of. | Jan 15 14:37 |
| Diablo-D3 | xbox live could say they make more total dollars on xbla | Jan 15 14:37 |
| Diablo-D3 | but normalized to total games sold, its probably very similar to steam. | Jan 15 14:37 |
| -BNc/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] A Lot of #GNU #Linux Planned for #Lotusphere 2010 http://ur1.ca/jwax http://ur1.ca/jway | Jan 15 14:38 | |
| Adus | How many subscribers does steam have? | Jan 15 14:38 |
| phIRCe-local | Title: Ubuntu Surprises at Lotusphere 2010? | The VAR Guy .::. Size~: 47.14 KB | Jan 15 14:38 |
| phIRCe-local | Title: Canonical, IBM: Ubuntu Counters Windows 7 At Lotusphere | The VAR Guy .::. Size~: 53.44 KB | Jan 15 14:38 |
| Diablo-D3 | Adus: millions | Jan 15 14:38 |
| Diablo-D3 | I'd have to go look for the exact number | Jan 15 14:38 |
| Adus | How many millions? | Jan 15 14:38 |
| Adus | We have 20 million active users on XBL | Jan 15 14:38 |
| Diablo-D3 | Adus: btw, theres also a two fold problem | Jan 15 14:38 |
| Diablo-D3 | Microsoft does not yet support me as a developer | Jan 15 14:38 |
| Adus | Which is roughly 1/3rd of our install base. The question is, how to get the other 2/3rds on XBL as well | Jan 15 14:38 |
| Adus | :p | Jan 15 14:38 |
| Diablo-D3 | I will not buy a SDK, I will not develop on Windows, I will not use C#. | Jan 15 14:39 |
| -BNc/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] #Servers at #Google to Run #Ext4 http://tech.slashdot.org/story/10/01/14/2027255/Google-Switching-To-EXT4-Filesystem #fs #tso | Jan 15 14:39 | |
| phIRCe-local | Title: Slashdot Technology Story | Google Switching To EXT4 Filesystem .::. Size~: 154.29 KB | Jan 15 14:39 |
| Diablo-D3 | Microsoft already lost me as a developer before they started | Jan 15 14:39 |
| Diablo-D3 | and they'd also have to buy me an 360, since I wont buy one | Jan 15 14:39 |
| Adus | Diablo-D3: Well, you don't have to use C#. You think we use C# to write software for the 360 at MS? :p | Jan 15 14:39 |
| Diablo-D3 | Adus: I wont use Windows | Jan 15 14:39 |
| Adus | Ok, that would be a stumbling block. | Jan 15 14:39 |
| Diablo-D3 | I dont see them releasing a gcc-based toolkit for linux to compile 360 binaries. | Jan 15 14:39 |
| Adus | Nope, you need Visual Studio 2008 | Jan 15 14:40 |
| -BNc/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] #Linux 2.6.32.3 is Released http://www.itrunsonlinux.com/news/155-linux-kernel-26323-stable-release | Jan 15 14:40 | |
| Diablo-D3 | and I also find msvc incredibly annoying | Jan 15 14:40 |
| Diablo-D3 | its one of the worst IDEs ever made | Jan 15 14:40 |
| Diablo-D3 | even monodev is better than it, and monodev is absolute shit | Jan 15 14:40 |
| Adus | Really? I generally find VC to kick the ass of other IDEs | Jan 15 14:40 |
| Adus | The C++ stuff for Eclipse is getting there though | Jan 15 14:40 |
| Diablo-D3 | for "full featured" ides, its eclipse > mono/sharpdev > vis studio | Jan 15 14:40 |
| Diablo-D3 | but see, I'm a vim man. | Jan 15 14:41 |
| Adus | But I think think VC is better, and the MS debugger is far superious imho. | Jan 15 14:41 |
| -BNc/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] List of #Calculator Applications for #GNU #Linux http://www.ghacks.net/2010/01/14/three-calculators-for-the-linux-desktop/ | Jan 15 14:41 | |
| phIRCe-local | Title: Three calculators for the Linux desktop .::. Size~: 42.5 KB | Jan 15 14:41 |
| Diablo-D3 | so all that additional crap gets in the way | Jan 15 14:41 |
| Diablo-D3 | Adus: and theres other problems | Jan 15 14:41 |
| Adus | Our TD here is really into emacs, it's his answer to everything. | Jan 15 14:41 |
| Diablo-D3 | microsoft wont release an opengl stack for 360 | Jan 15 14:41 |
| Diablo-D3 | I'm not writing code twice. | Jan 15 14:41 |
| Diablo-D3 | and the 360 SDK uses C++, I dont. | Jan 15 14:41 |
| Adus | C actually. | Jan 15 14:42 |
| -BNc/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] #SuperGamer Packs #GNU #Linux with 8 Gigabytes of #Games http://www.linuxjournal.com/content/supergamer-8gb-linux-only-gameplay | Jan 15 14:42 | |
| phIRCe-local | Title: SuperGamer, 8GB of Linux-Only Gameplay | Linux Journal .::. Size~: 41.17 KB | Jan 15 14:42 |
| Diablo-D3 | I imagine theres some C++ APIs in it | Jan 15 14:42 |
| Diablo-D3 | such as the DX apis (which I wont dev for) | Jan 15 14:42 |
| Adus | You could be write. Certainly the API areas I maintain are C | Jan 15 14:42 |
| Adus | right* | Jan 15 14:42 |
| Diablo-D3 | btw, in the past 48 hours, steam peaked at 2.3 million users | Jan 15 14:43 |
| Adus | Our server-side stuff is written in C++, and our client side stuff is C++ but the API is exposed via C | Jan 15 14:43 |
| Adus | Diablo-D3: Roughly the same as XBL then. Slightly less | Jan 15 14:43 |
| Adus | our peak is usually around 3 million users | Jan 15 14:43 |
| Diablo-D3 | so yeah, as a linux developer, I can, in fact, use Steam. | Jan 15 14:44 |
| Adus | 3.2 is the record I believe, the weak MW2 released. Usually around 2.8 - 3 at peak time. | Jan 15 14:44 |
| Adus | week* | Jan 15 14:44 |
| Diablo-D3 | I may not be able to deploy to linux users, but I can do nearly all my dev in linux | Jan 15 14:44 |
| Diablo-D3 | hahah mw2 | Jan 15 14:44 |
| Diablo-D3 | the most played game atm on steam is mw2 | Jan 15 14:44 |
| Adus | I saw in the news they have grossed $1bn | Jan 15 14:44 |
| Adus | this month | Jan 15 14:44 |
| Diablo-D3 | yeah, its nuts | Jan 15 14:44 |
| Diablo-D3 | its not even that good of a game | Jan 15 14:45 |
| Adus | Yeh, I agree. | Jan 15 14:45 |
| -BNc/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] #RedHat Surged as Market Tanked http://www.fool.com/investing/high-growth/2010/01/14/this-stock-loves-the-recession.aspx | Jan 15 14:45 | |
| phIRCe-local | Title: This Stock Loves the Recession (RHT) .::. Size~: 59.71 KB | Jan 15 14:45 |
| Diablo-D3 | its counterstrike upgraded | Jan 15 14:45 |
| Diablo-D3 | which, #2 atm is cs:s | Jan 15 14:45 |
| Diablo-D3 | http://store.steampowered.com/stats/ | Jan 15 14:45 |
| phIRCe-local | Title: Steam: Game and Player Statistics .::. Size~: 31.33 KB | Jan 15 14:45 |
| *oiaohm has quit (Remote closed the connection) | Jan 15 14:45 | |
| Adus | It's not a *bad* game, but it's hardly the best game ever | Jan 15 14:45 |
| Adus | my game of 2009 is definitely Dragon Age: Orogins | Jan 15 14:45 |
| Adus | but I'm a real RPG nut | Jan 15 14:45 |
| Diablo-D3 | I dunno, I'd love an ultrarealistic war game | Jan 15 14:45 |
| Diablo-D3 | but no one ever seems to deliver | Jan 15 14:45 |
| Adus | Tried Operation Flashpoint 2: Dragon Rising? | Jan 15 14:46 |
| Diablo-D3 | the closest I've gotten is the tc:e mod for et | Jan 15 14:46 |
| -BNi/#boycottnovell-[sagarun/@sagarun] I am learning to fly; ( Any one wonders how and where? ) | Jan 15 14:46 | |
| *jono (n=jono@ubuntu/member/jono) has joined #boycottnovell | Jan 15 14:46 | |
| Diablo-D3 | Adus: arma2 > dragon rising | Jan 15 14:46 |
| Adus | I used to work at Codies, the guys downstairs were working on OFP, looked good. Came out last year. Not bought it though. | Jan 15 14:46 |
| Adus | I was on the racing team | Jan 15 14:46 |
| Diablo-D3 | and Im not too impressed with arma2 | Jan 15 14:47 |
| Diablo-D3 | arma2 gets some things very right, other things annoyingly wrong | Jan 15 14:47 |
| Diablo-D3 | its not good enough for me to buy | Jan 15 14:47 |
| Adus | Did you get Dragon Age? | Jan 15 14:47 |
| Diablo-D3 | no, Im not into mmo shit | Jan 15 14:47 |
| Adus | It's not an MMO | Jan 15 14:48 |
| Adus | It's an RPG :p | Jan 15 14:48 |
| Diablo-D3 | ahh... still not quite my thing | Jan 15 14:48 |
| Diablo-D3 | I dont like modern rpgs | Jan 15 14:48 |
| Adus | Best RPG Bioware have done since KotOR imho | Jan 15 14:48 |
| Diablo-D3 | heh, its funny | Jan 15 14:48 |
| Diablo-D3 | I own kotor | Jan 15 14:48 |
| Diablo-D3 | and still havent played it | Jan 15 14:48 |
| Adus | kotor is one of my favourite games ever | Jan 15 14:48 |
| Diablo-D3 | wine chokes on it | Jan 15 14:48 |
| Adus | It does? Odd. | Jan 15 14:49 |
| Diablo-D3 | its a stupid bug whatever it is | Jan 15 14:49 |
| Diablo-D3 | because it really shouldnt | Jan 15 14:49 |
| Adus | Does cedega still totally own Wine, or has it evened out now? | Jan 15 14:49 |
| Diablo-D3 | cedega failed the day wine changed their license | Jan 15 14:49 |
| Diablo-D3 | cedega never had any actual coders | Jan 15 14:49 |
| Adus | They not still around? | Jan 15 14:49 |
| Diablo-D3 | they're around in the sense that people are still duped into buying it | Jan 15 14:50 |
| Diablo-D3 | actual development has long since stopped | Jan 15 14:50 |
| Adus | I thought they had that thingy for porting to Mac? | Jan 15 14:50 |
| Diablo-D3 | I never heard of them having one | Jan 15 14:50 |
| Diablo-D3 | Wine does, though | Jan 15 14:50 |
| Adus | But I seem to remember Cedega had far better support for games than Wine a while back. | Jan 15 14:50 |
| Adus | Actually, just as D3D9c came around. | Jan 15 14:51 |
| Diablo-D3 | not better | Jan 15 14:51 |
| Diablo-D3 | it was actually buggy as hell | Jan 15 14:51 |
| Diablo-D3 | wine's current d3d9 support is basically done | Jan 15 14:51 |
| Adus | Any D3D10 or 11? | Jan 15 14:51 |
| Diablo-D3 | they're just hunting down bugs that result in microsoft not properly documenting APIs | Jan 15 14:51 |
| Diablo-D3 | some d3d10 | Jan 15 14:51 |
| Diablo-D3 | there isnt many d3d10 titles out there | Jan 15 14:51 |
| Adus | Yeh, I know there is a team at MS trying to go through the docs are correct all the incorrectly doced bits and pieces in D3D and WinApi | Jan 15 14:52 |
| Diablo-D3 | correcting the docs doesnt fix already shipped games. | Jan 15 14:52 |
| Adus | I expect that job would take a lifetime. | Jan 15 14:52 |
| Diablo-D3 | Adus: oh, another thing | Jan 15 14:52 |
| Diablo-D3 | mesa/dri are developing a new HAL to actually do everything right | Jan 15 14:52 |
| Diablo-D3 | something no windows driver does, for example | Jan 15 14:53 |
| Adus | True, but if you can make the undocumented/unspecified behaviour documented, and mimmick it, you're alright. | Jan 15 14:53 |
| -BNc/#boycottnovell-[zoobab] European Parliament's services not able to deliver transcripts of the hearing of the new Commissioners #transparency #europe | Jan 15 14:53 | |
| -BNc/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] #OpenOffice .org 3.2 a Step Closer to Final Release, Office in More Trouble http://ur1.ca/jwbq http://ur1.ca/jwbr | Jan 15 14:53 | |
| phIRCe-local | Title: New: OpenOffice.org 3.2.0 Release Candidate 2 (build OOO320_m9) available - GullFOSS .::. Size~: 54.92 KB | Jan 15 14:53 |
| phIRCe-local | Title: A Pivotal Moment for Microsoft Office - Windows Software News Story .::. Size~: 46.46 KB | Jan 15 14:53 |
| Diablo-D3 | they're going to teach it how to speak d3d at some point | Jan 15 14:53 |
| Diablo-D3 | so wine no longer has to translate to opengl first which will solve a lot of graphical bugs | Jan 15 14:53 |
| Diablo-D3 | wine will just use native d3d support. | Jan 15 14:53 |
| Diablo-D3 | AMD is spending a lot of money and time on the development of the new gallium3D stuff | Jan 15 14:54 |
| Diablo-D3 | the radeon r6/7/800 drivers, although a tad incomplete, are already faster than radeon drivers on windows | Jan 15 14:54 |
| -BNc/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] #ZTE Bets on #Linux for Handsets http://www.reghardware.co.uk/2010/01/14/zte_oha/ | Jan 15 14:55 | |
| phIRCe-local | Title: ZTE accelerates Android handset release plan • Register Hardware .::. Size~: 20.25 KB | Jan 15 14:55 |
| Diablo-D3 | so windows is really.... screwed. | Jan 15 14:55 |
| Adus | There were some experiments not long ago with getting games to run on Windows Embedded. Really stripped down versions with stuff for D3D11 and D3D12, with new driver models etc | Jan 15 14:55 |
| Adus | I hear the results were promising | Jan 15 14:55 |
| Adus | will be interesting to see what they decide on | Jan 15 14:55 |
| Diablo-D3 | that wouldn't be so bad | Jan 15 14:55 |
| Diablo-D3 | but microsoft really should quit trying to compete with linux | Jan 15 14:55 |
| -BNc/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] #IBM Strikes #MySQL -related Deal http://www.theregister.co.uk/2010/01/15/schooner_ibm_deal/ | Jan 15 14:56 | |
| Adus | I don't think they want to compete with Linux, I think the focus was on what they might be able to do for Windows 8 and beyond | Jan 15 14:56 |
| phIRCe-local | Title: Big Blue rides Schooner to MySQL boost • The Register .::. Size~: 30.79 KB | Jan 15 14:56 |
| Adus | in terms of D3D | Jan 15 14:56 |
| Diablo-D3 | well | Jan 15 14:56 |
| Adus | I'd argue that OpenGL and D3D don't actually compete all that much | Jan 15 14:56 |
| Diablo-D3 | what they should be doing, imo, is getting rid of the 360 platform | Jan 15 14:56 |
| Diablo-D3 | it should become a unified software toolkit | Jan 15 14:56 |
| -BNc/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] #GNU Involves in Workshop on e-Health in Emerging Economies http://www.iweee.org/ #ethics | Jan 15 14:57 | |
| phIRCe-local | Title: IWEEE 2010: International Workshop on e-Health in Emerging Economies .::. Size~: 4.73 KB | Jan 15 14:57 |
| Diablo-D3 | and just sell a single model of "computer" that represents the lowest end unit | Jan 15 14:57 |
| Diablo-D3 | and then open source the whole toolkit | Jan 15 14:57 |
| Adus | I really doubt Microsoft will move into selling PCs | Jan 15 14:57 |
| Adus | They really don't want to do that. | Jan 15 14:57 |
| Diablo-D3 | Adus: they already do | Jan 15 14:57 |
| Diablo-D3 | its called the 360 | Jan 15 14:57 |
| Adus | Diablo-D3: No, that's not the same at all. The moment it runs standard Windows, it becomes a problem. | Jan 15 14:58 |
| -BNc/#boycottnovell-[anivar] On the way to kozhikkode .. | Jan 15 14:58 | |
| -BNc/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] #Microsoft Makes Mistakes That Push for Increased Use of #GNU #Linux http://www.linux-mag.com/cache/7669/1.html | Jan 15 14:58 | |
| Diablo-D3 | I never said run standard windows | Jan 15 14:58 |
| phIRCe-local | Title: Desktop Linux Market Share Will Rise, Thanks to Microsoft | Linux Magazine .::. Size~: 46.56 KB | Jan 15 14:58 |
| Diablo-D3 | I said have a unified toolkit. | Jan 15 14:58 |
| Adus | Microsoft's biggest strength, whatever you hate about them, is that their OS is compatiable with an insane amount of hardware and software | Jan 15 14:58 |
| Adus | the moment they start to lose that | Jan 15 14:58 |
| Adus | it's game over | Jan 15 14:58 |
| Diablo-D3 | I could, say, build a program for windows, xbox++, osx, and linux | Jan 15 14:58 |
| Diablo-D3 | all from the same code | Jan 15 14:58 |
| Diablo-D3 | with no performance loss or issues. | Jan 15 14:58 |
| Adus | Well, you can do that for Xbox and Windows. | Jan 15 14:58 |
| Adus | Just not for OSX and Linux as well. | Jan 15 14:58 |
| Diablo-D3 | I cant do it with xbox quite exactly | Jan 15 14:59 |
| Diablo-D3 | Im very limited in what I can do on an xbox. | Jan 15 14:59 |
| Diablo-D3 | in contrast, look at the iphone OS | Jan 15 14:59 |
| Diablo-D3 | its osx underneath, with a new UI stack on top | Jan 15 14:59 |
| *DaemonFC (n=chatzill@c-69-245-224-113.hsd1.in.comcast.net) has joined #boycottnovell | Jan 15 14:59 | |
| Adus | But the 360 *is* windows underneath | Jan 15 14:59 |
| Adus | It's derived from Windows 2000 | Jan 15 14:59 |
| Diablo-D3 | yes, but theres still limitations imo. | Jan 15 15:00 |
| -BNc/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] #Apple sued Again for #Patent Infringement http://blogs.zdnet.com/BTL/?p=29558 | Jan 15 15:00 | |
| phIRCe-local | Title: Patent wars: Kodak sues Apple, RIM for patent infringement | Between the Lines | ZDNet.com .::. Size~: 177.82 KB | Jan 15 15:00 |
| Adus | Not really. The big limitations are UI stuff | Jan 15 15:00 |
| Adus | you still have winsock etc etc | Jan 15 15:00 |
| Diablo-D3 | theres still no opengl stack | Jan 15 15:00 |
| Adus | Well, you'll hate me for saying this. but D3D is better than opengl :p | Jan 15 15:00 |
| Diablo-D3 | imo its not | Jan 15 15:00 |
| Diablo-D3 | but it doesn't actually matter | Jan 15 15:01 |
| Adus | I'd be far happier if Microsoft made d3d openly available on all platforms than if they added opengl to the 360 :p | Jan 15 15:01 |
| Diablo-D3 | microsoft does not natively support d3d on linux | Jan 15 15:01 |
| Adus | No, but if they did. | Jan 15 15:01 |
| Diablo-D3 | and until linux natively does d3d, I CANT USE IT. | Jan 15 15:01 |
| Adus | That's my point, given the choice | Jan 15 15:01 |
| Diablo-D3 | now, as I said above, this will possibly come to pass | Jan 15 15:01 |
| Adus | I'd rather use d3d on Linux than opengl on 360 :p | Jan 15 15:01 |
| Diablo-D3 | gallium3D is a HAL API that allows hardware backends ("drivers") to support anything | Jan 15 15:01 |
| Diablo-D3 | opengl, opencl, that hardware svg shit, etc | Jan 15 15:02 |
| Diablo-D3 | all if it is driven through the same unified hardware backend. | Jan 15 15:02 |
| MinceR | 151046 < Diablo-D3> they're capable | Jan 15 15:02 |
| Diablo-D3 | this also means d3d can also be done. | Jan 15 15:02 |
| MinceR | there's no proof of that | Jan 15 15:02 |
| MinceR | plus they're pretty much forced to now and they still failed (see vista, vista7) | Jan 15 15:02 |
| Diablo-D3 | MinceR: they have capable employees leaving the company to actually go do real work somewhere else | Jan 15 15:02 |
| MinceR | well, maybe not even those people can deliver anything of value under m$ management | Jan 15 15:03 |
| Adus | Diablo-D3: We have a lot of very talented people at MS. | Jan 15 15:03 |
| Diablo-D3 | the PHBs keep telling people capable of actually doing this shit "no" | Jan 15 15:03 |
| -BNc/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] #GNU #Linux Desktop Assessment of #RedHat , #Microvell , #Ubuntu , and #Fedora http://ur1.ca/jwcg | Jan 15 15:03 | |
| phIRCe-local | Title: Linux Desktop Comparison: Red Hat, Novell, Ubuntu, Fedora — Datamation.com .::. Size~: 63.66 KB | Jan 15 15:03 |
| Diablo-D3 | microsoft _does_ have a lot of talented people | Jan 15 15:03 |
| Diablo-D3 | they're just shit on all the damned time | Jan 15 15:03 |
| Diablo-D3 | its stupid and pointless | Jan 15 15:03 |
| Diablo-D3 | if I ran microsoft, I'd probably fire half the company | Jan 15 15:03 |
| Adus | I quite like it here. As I say, I chose here over Google. They have far better benefits here :p | Jan 15 15:03 |
| Diablo-D3 | schestowitz: bad url on that last one | Jan 15 15:03 |
| Adus | and far more freedom | Jan 15 15:03 |
| -BNc/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] #FreeSoftware Leads the #Programming League http://java.dzone.com/news/popular-languages-2009 | Jan 15 15:04 | |
| phIRCe-local | Title: Popular Languages of 2009 | Javalobby .::. Size~: 31.1 KB | Jan 15 15:04 |
| *Diablo-D3 would fire probably almost all the upper management | Jan 15 15:04 | |
| MinceR | if i ran m$, i'd shut down the company, release all code under GPLv3 and give the money back to the shareholders | Jan 15 15:04 |
| Diablo-D3 | MinceR: nope | Jan 15 15:04 |
| Diablo-D3 | I'd spend the next ten years transitioning the company into one that sells services. | Jan 15 15:04 |
| MinceR | better to get out now than after a lot more decline anyway | Jan 15 15:04 |
| Diablo-D3 | I'd give the next windows away for free | Jan 15 15:04 |
| Diablo-D3 | totally completely free. | Jan 15 15:04 |
| Diablo-D3 | no licenses, no calling home | Jan 15 15:05 |
| -BNc/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] Openness/Freedom Spreads to Hardware, #Commons Promoted http://ur1.ca/jwci http://ur1.ca/jwcj | Jan 15 15:05 | |
| phIRCe-local | Title: CES 2010: Open Source 3-D Printer Turns Designs Into Objects - Video - Wired .::. Size~: 103.36 KB | Jan 15 15:05 |
| phIRCe-local | Title: Strengthen the Commons « Seminário dez anos depois .::. Size~: 36.72 KB | Jan 15 15:05 |
| MinceR | Diablo-D3: who would want to buy crap services from a company that can no longer force anyone to buy them? | Jan 15 15:05 |
| Omar87 | schestowitz: Check this out. http://boycottnovell.com/2010/01/11/alex-kochis-jumps-ship/ | Jan 15 15:05 |
| phIRCe-local | Title: Microsofts Anti-Counterfeiting Chief Quits, Sales in the Gulf Dive 50% | Boycott Novell .::. Size~: 94.89 KB | Jan 15 15:05 |
| Diablo-D3 | MinceR: support contracts. | Jan 15 15:05 |
| Diablo-D3 | its no different than sun or oracle's business models | Jan 15 15:05 |
| Omar87 | schestowitz: ahh. that was nothing. | Jan 15 15:06 |
| -BNc/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] More Information About #Antitrust Against the #IntellectualMonopolists (Racketeers/Cartel) http://ur1.ca/jwcm | Jan 15 15:06 | |
| Omar87 | I'm sorry.. :) | Jan 15 15:06 |
| phIRCe-local | Title: Law.com - 2nd Circuit Reinstates Antitrust Claim Against Online Music Providers .::. Size~: 25.72 KB | Jan 15 15:06 |
| MinceR | Diablo-D3: except that m$ has no good products nor goodwill | Jan 15 15:06 |
| Diablo-D3 | MinceR: not yet, no. | Jan 15 15:06 |
| Adus | I truly believe we have the best people in the world at MS. Google and Apple have their fair share as well. | Jan 15 15:06 |
| MinceR | all they have is ill-gotten market share they use as leverage | Jan 15 15:06 |
| MinceR | and they'll lose that | Jan 15 15:06 |
| Diablo-D3 | but having one of the most vocal microsoft haters on the internet at their helm changes things. | Jan 15 15:06 |
| MinceR | Adus: sure. you and crApple have some of the best lawyers in the world | Jan 15 15:06 |
| rnb_ | hello group | Jan 15 15:06 |
| MinceR | Adus: crApple might have some of the best marketroids in the world | Jan 15 15:07 |
| Diablo-D3 | And yes, if Microsoft asked me to work very high up in their company | Jan 15 15:07 |
| Diablo-D3 | I would | Jan 15 15:07 |
| Diablo-D3 | I wouldnt even think twice | Jan 15 15:07 |
| Adus | MinceR: But that doesn't change the fact we have the best developers :p | Jan 15 15:07 |
| Diablo-D3 | I just want full control over my part of the company | Jan 15 15:07 |
| MinceR | Adus: keep telling yourself that | Jan 15 15:07 |
| MinceR | Adus: i'll wait until you can turn up some evidence -- that is, non-crap software. | Jan 15 15:07 |
| Adus | If you truly believe that the developers at Microsoft are not good, you're totally insane :p | Jan 15 15:08 |
| rnb_ | microsoft naturally employs dullards | Jan 15 15:08 |
| Diablo-D3 | the NT kernel, btw, isn't that bad. | Jan 15 15:08 |
| MinceR | Diablo-D3: it was written by a guy from DEC, based on VMS design | Jan 15 15:08 |
| Diablo-D3 | MinceR: yup | Jan 15 15:08 |
| rnb_ | they have to, in order for their employees to not become dissatisfied with the purpose of their life | Jan 15 15:08 |
| MinceR | yet the changes m$ wanted ruined it anyway | Jan 15 15:08 |
| Diablo-D3 | which is why I'd actually like to keep it | Jan 15 15:08 |
| Diablo-D3 | what it needs is a unified kernel messaging design | Jan 15 15:08 |
| MinceR | such as GUI and all kinds of random crap in kernel space | Jan 15 15:08 |
| Diablo-D3 | MinceR: actually | Jan 15 15:08 |
| MinceR | which fits into the VMS model even less than it fits into the Unix model. | Jan 15 15:09 |
| Diablo-D3 | hardware handling does belong in the kernel | Jan 15 15:09 |
| Adus | Diablo-D3: Haha, that's a very touchy subject :p | Jan 15 15:09 |
| Diablo-D3 | I very much do want the D3D backend, for example, in the kernel | Jan 15 15:09 |
| MinceR | Diablo-D3: the GUI is not hardware handling, it's windowing system+window manager+toolkit+panels | Jan 15 15:09 |
| Diablo-D3 | MinceR: that, obviously, I dont | Jan 15 15:09 |
| Diablo-D3 | but gallium3D, for example, is half kernel space. | Jan 15 15:09 |
| MinceR | yet a lot of the windowing system is in kernel space | Jan 15 15:09 |
| MinceR | meanwhile their marketroids keep telling us that it's a microkernel. | Jan 15 15:10 |
| Diablo-D3 | I'd fire the marketroids too. | Jan 15 15:10 |
| MinceR | Diablo-D3: if you want VMS, use VMS. | Jan 15 15:10 |
| Adus | So you literally envisage drivers being Ring 0, not Ring 1 and 2? | Jan 15 15:10 |
| Diablo-D3 | Adus: basically yes. Its not _that_ bad of a problem. | Jan 15 15:10 |
| Diablo-D3 | btw, I don't consider USB device drivers drivers | Jan 15 15:10 |
| Diablo-D3 | or any of that other nonsense | Jan 15 15:11 |
| -BNi/#boycottnovell-[sagarun/@sagarun] மியாவ் மியாவ்... மியாவ் மியாவ் பூன.... (டமுக்கு டமுக்கு டமுக்கு டமுக்கு... ) :P | Jan 15 15:11 | |
| Diablo-D3 | even the linux kernel gets that a tad wrong | Jan 15 15:11 |
| Adus | But 99% of windows crashes are bad drivers, and since moving the video drivers to user mode | Jan 15 15:11 |
| Diablo-D3 | Adus: wrong | Jan 15 15:11 |
| Adus | the number of craches have dropped a lot | Jan 15 15:11 |
| Adus | :p | Jan 15 15:11 |
| Adus | crashes* | Jan 15 15:11 |
| Diablo-D3 | you're attributing the problem very wrong | Jan 15 15:11 |
| Diablo-D3 | 99% of drivers are not written by microsoft | Jan 15 15:11 |
| Diablo-D3 | the ones that are work 100% perfectly. | Jan 15 15:11 |
| Adus | Because Microsoft know how to write drivers properly :p | Jan 15 15:12 |
| Diablo-D3 | Adus: look at gallium3D | Jan 15 15:12 |
| Adus | third-parties don't. | Jan 15 15:12 |
| Diablo-D3 | its a unified system for all gpu work | Jan 15 15:12 |
| MinceR | if you were to restrict windows to only m$ drivers, it would have very bad hw support | Jan 15 15:12 |
| MinceR | i wonder how the m$ fanboys would react to that. | Jan 15 15:12 |
| Adus | MinceR: Exactly. But if don't do that, you can't run all drivers in kernel mode. | Jan 15 15:12 |
| Adus | Moving the video drivers to user mode was a good decision imho | Jan 15 15:13 |
| Adus | it makes the experience for the end-user better. | Jan 15 15:13 |
| Diablo-D3 | Adus: mesa+dri+gallium3D provide an opengl library, access to hardware acceleration, a LLVM-based shader compiler, and full low level access to the hardware | Jan 15 15:13 |
| MinceR | actually i'd prefer a real microkernel, with as little running in kernel mode as possible | Jan 15 15:13 |
| MinceR | because i value reliability over performance. | Jan 15 15:13 |
| Diablo-D3 | Adus: its generic across all vendors | Jan 15 15:13 |
| MinceR | but it still seems to be the future | Jan 15 15:13 |
| Adus | MinceR: I agree, but Diablo-D3 is proposing the opposite | Jan 15 15:13 |
| MinceR | maybe it will always be the future. | Jan 15 15:13 |
| Adus | he's proposing drivers in Ring 0, in kernel mode :p | Jan 15 15:13 |
| schestowitz | [15:03] <Diablo-D3> schestowitz: bad url on that last one | Jan 15 15:13 |
| schestowitz | Datamation? | Jan 15 15:13 |
| MinceR | how many architectures have 4 rings anyway? | Jan 15 15:13 |
| Diablo-D3 | schestowitz: tinyurl fail | Jan 15 15:13 |
| MinceR | x86 and VAX do, but what others? | Jan 15 15:13 |
| Diablo-D3 | schestowitz: the dssktop comparison one | Jan 15 15:14 |
| Adus | Which imho, is a bad idea. I think you have it all wrong Diablo-D3. There is no reason a system like that couldn't run in user-mode | Jan 15 15:14 |
| MinceR | (included x86-64 in x86) | Jan 15 15:14 |
| Diablo-D3 | Adus: no, most of mesaland IS in usermode | Jan 15 15:14 |
| MinceR | (and disregarding ring -1, obviously) | Jan 15 15:14 |
| Diablo-D3 | its the backend of gallium3D that talks directly to the hardware that is in the kernel | Jan 15 15:14 |
| schestowitz | [15:06] <MinceR> Adus: sure. you and crApple have some of the best lawyers in the world | Jan 15 15:14 |
| Adus | -1 is NGSCB and hypervisor etc? | Jan 15 15:14 |
| schestowitz | No, they just have pockets | Jan 15 15:14 |
| schestowitz | They can drive the other side, like i4i, close to bankruptcy. | Jan 15 15:15 |
| schestowitz | That's how the 'law' works, it's a loophole" | Jan 15 15:15 |
| MinceR | -1 is VT-x and AMD-V | Jan 15 15:15 |
| Diablo-D3 | Adus: I think no userland software should ever talk directly to the hardware | Jan 15 15:15 |
| schestowitz | "Money games" it was called in India last month | Jan 15 15:15 |
| MinceR | and equivalents | Jan 15 15:15 |
| schestowitz | Microsoft was fine for it over there | Jan 15 15:15 |
| Diablo-D3 | Adus: btw, this doesn't mean this can't be microkerneled. | Jan 15 15:15 |
| schestowitz | I guess Microsoft is even too corrupt for India | Jan 15 15:15 |
| schestowitz | India found Microsoft guilty of tax evasion in 2008 iirc | Jan 15 15:15 |
| schestowitz | mayeb 2009 | Jan 15 15:15 |
| Diablo-D3 | Adus: it just means if you have multiple software userlands running, or multiple display servers, or multiple whatevers | Jan 15 15:16 |
| Diablo-D3 | Adus: you need something in the kernel space to finally hand this to the hardware | Jan 15 15:16 |
| Omar87 | schestowitz: thanks for mentioning us in the MS Anti-Counterfeiting articls | Jan 15 15:16 |
| Diablo-D3 | Adus: anything that is required for the machine to actually do basic functioning must be in kernel space | Jan 15 15:16 |
| Omar87 | article* | Jan 15 15:16 |
| schestowitz | Omar87: np | Jan 15 15:16 |
| Adus | Diablo-D3: Well, in which case. Wouldn't it make more sense to have drivers that talk direcetly with hardware in say, Ring 1, then drivers which can talk to the drivers in Ring 1 in Ring 2, exposed to Ring 3 Usermode. | Jan 15 15:16 |
| Diablo-D3 | Adus: depends how its setup | Jan 15 15:17 |
| Adus | where Ring 1 and 2 are not either usermode or kernel mode, but some specialised interop mode | Jan 15 15:17 |
| Adus | :p | Jan 15 15:17 |
| Diablo-D3 | Adus: linux doesnt do it that way | Jan 15 15:17 |
| MinceR | neither does VMS | Jan 15 15:17 |
| Adus | Diablo-D3: Well no, but who;s to say Linux, Windows or operating system y do it right? | Jan 15 15:17 |
| Adus | :p | Jan 15 15:17 |
| Diablo-D3 | Adus: its not a large issue, btw, rings are only on x86 | Jan 15 15:17 |
| Diablo-D3 | ppc, for example, doesnt use those. | Jan 15 15:17 |
| MinceR | Diablo-D3: i'm pretty sure they're also on VAX | Jan 15 15:17 |
| Diablo-D3 | nor does anyone else, really | Jan 15 15:17 |
| Adus | Diablo-D3: I know, but the concept is still useful. | Jan 15 15:18 |
| Adus | Even if in reality that isn't what happens | Jan 15 15:18 |
| Diablo-D3 | Adus: its just a logical seperation | Jan 15 15:18 |
| Adus | It's a good way of visualising things | Jan 15 15:18 |
| Adus | exactly. | Jan 15 15:18 |
| Diablo-D3 | microkernels do that | Jan 15 15:18 |
| MinceR | i don't think it's useful to rely on rings that aren't enforced by hardware. | Jan 15 15:18 |
| Diablo-D3 | you have microkernel numebr zero that manages the memory and the buses and anything else absolutely core | Jan 15 15:18 |
| Diablo-D3 | and then no microkernel server after that can fuck it up | Jan 15 15:19 |
| Diablo-D3 | (well, by theory) | Jan 15 15:19 |
| Adus | microkernels have their own share of problems. | Jan 15 15:19 |
| Diablo-D3 | but if you're that paranoid, you might as well make your most basic part a hypervisor. | Jan 15 15:19 |
| amarsh04 | VAX has kernel mode, executive mode, supervisor mode and user mode | Jan 15 15:19 |
| Diablo-D3 | which, technically, isnt a horrid solution. | Jan 15 15:19 |
| Adus | Diablo-D3: That's exactly what we do on the 360. | Jan 15 15:19 |
| Diablo-D3 | Adus: a lot of boxes do | Jan 15 15:19 |
| Diablo-D3 | IBM supercomputers do | Jan 15 15:19 |
| Diablo-D3 | they have a hypervisor thats part firmware, part bootloader, part OS molestor | Jan 15 15:20 |
| Adus | and we rely on it to enforce things like, writable memory is not executable etc etc | Jan 15 15:20 |
| Diablo-D3 | the machine is still live and administratable no matter how dead the OS is | Jan 15 15:20 |
| Adus | With some other bits of pieces of magic of course. | Jan 15 15:20 |
| MinceR | Adus: you do it for DRM though | Jan 15 15:20 |
| Diablo-D3 | MinceR: not all DRMs are created equal | Jan 15 15:21 |
| Diablo-D3 | I don't mind using a hypervisor for machine protection | Jan 15 15:21 |
| -BNi/#boycottnovell-[sagarun/@sagarun] Following @flipkartdotcom :) ; Hey send me those books soon; I need them for some time killing | Jan 15 15:21 | |
| MinceR | i think it's better to keep the hypervisor ring for the hypervisor -- otherwise the OS won't be able to run under such a hypervisor | Jan 15 15:21 |
| Adus | MinceR: What you call DRM, we call protection in this case. | Jan 15 15:21 |
| MinceR | Adus: i know | Jan 15 15:21 |
| MinceR | Adus: you also like to call it "security" when it isn't | Jan 15 15:21 |
| Diablo-D3 | Adus: but yeah, like, if Microsoft hired me to run the company, Microsoft would be legitimately profiting forevermore. | Jan 15 15:21 |
| MinceR | got to make up a few names so you don't have to call it plainly "screwing the customer" | Jan 15 15:21 |
| Adus | It is security... | Jan 15 15:21 |
| Diablo-D3 | Adus: but I dont see that happening. | Jan 15 15:22 |
| Omar87 | schestowitz: http://jordanopensource.org/article/jordan-become-open-source-hub-middle-east | Jan 15 15:22 |
| phIRCe-local | Title: Jordan to Become the Open Source Hub of the Middle East | Jordan Open Source Association .::. Size~: 23.96 KB | Jan 15 15:22 |
| rnb_ | haha -> | Jan 15 15:22 |
| Adus | MinceR: You can not deny that by it's sheer nature the 360 is pretty secure. There are very few known exploits that can run unsigned code, except hardware modes and some old firmware versions. | Jan 15 15:22 |
| rnb_ | http://thehill.com/blogs/hillicon-valley/technology/75965-white-house-blames-inefficient-government-on-outdated-technologies | Jan 15 15:22 |
| phIRCe-local | Title: White House budget director blames old computers for ineffective government - The Hill's Hillicon Valley .::. Size~: 53.39 KB | Jan 15 15:22 |
| Adus | I'd say that's pretty secure. | Jan 15 15:22 |
| Adus | mods* | Jan 15 15:23 |
| MinceR | Adus: depends on what you're securing from whom. | Jan 15 15:23 |
| Diablo-D3 | Adus: the problem with the foss community is, well, Microsoft doesnt effectively use them | Jan 15 15:23 |
| Diablo-D3 | Adus: theres millions of people out there who code FOSS | Jan 15 15:23 |
| Diablo-D3 | Adus: for free. | Jan 15 15:23 |
| MinceR | actually m$ does exploit the FLOSS community | Jan 15 15:23 |
| rnb_ | Omar87: i helped build FOSS computer labs in the west bank | Jan 15 15:23 |
| MinceR | remember all that bsd code in winblows | Jan 15 15:23 |
| rnb_ | Omar87: and that was in 2002 | Jan 15 15:23 |
| schestowitz | Omar87: thanks, got it | Jan 15 15:23 |
| MinceR | and mono | Jan 15 15:23 |
| Diablo-D3 | MinceR: exploit != effectively use. | Jan 15 15:23 |
| Adus | Diablo-D3: But most of them aren't very good. There are some exceptions, but the vast majority of programmers (FOSS or not) are not very good :p | Jan 15 15:23 |
| Diablo-D3 | Adus: no, but the process generally removes bad code. | Jan 15 15:24 |
| Omar87 | rnb_: west bank? Which city? | Jan 15 15:24 |
| Adus | If you control who works for you, you can control that quality | Jan 15 15:24 |
| MinceR | yet the vast majority of programmers do a better job than m$ | Jan 15 15:24 |
| Adus | MinceR: That's simply untrue. | Jan 15 15:24 |
| Diablo-D3 | Adus: I'd very much convert windows development to open source. | Jan 15 15:24 |
| rnb_ | Omar87: bethelehem, beit jala, beit sahour, that area | Jan 15 15:24 |
| MinceR | if i were you, Adus, i wouldn't be so damn proud of it. | Jan 15 15:24 |
| Adus | MinceR: MS software might not be perfect, but in most cases, it's better than the competition. | Jan 15 15:24 |
| MinceR | Adus: m$ makes one of the crappiest web browsers in the world, for example. | Jan 15 15:24 |
| Diablo-D3 | Adus: I can't trust the security of software if I can't read the code and thousands of people haven't already audited it | Jan 15 15:24 |
| rnb_ | Omar87: the deheishe refugee camp | Jan 15 15:24 |
| Omar87 | rnb_: oh yeah, I see. :-) | Jan 15 15:24 |
| MinceR | Adus: they also make some of the crappiest OSes in the world. | Jan 15 15:24 |
| Adus | MinceR: crappy by what measure? | Jan 15 15:24 |
| Omar87 | rnb_: I see. | Jan 15 15:24 |
| Diablo-D3 | Adus: windows should be open source. | Jan 15 15:24 |
| MinceR | Adus: by a lot of measures. | Jan 15 15:24 |
| MinceR | Adus: security, performance, reliability, usability | Jan 15 15:25 |
| Omar87 | rnb_: I'm originally from Haifa, btw. | Jan 15 15:25 |
| Adus | MinceR: No, that's not good enough. I want quantifiable measures. | Jan 15 15:25 |
| rnb_ | Omar87: really? i've been there | Jan 15 15:25 |
| MinceR | Adus: most of the measures of sw quality are not quantifiable. | Jan 15 15:25 |
| Omar87 | rnb_: Dad's from Haifa and Mom's from Jenin. | Jan 15 15:25 |
| Adus | Of course they are. all of those things you just said are. | Jan 15 15:25 |
| rnb_ | Omar87: i want to go back but i never seem to have the time | Jan 15 15:25 |
| MinceR | Adus: except for all of them. | Jan 15 15:26 |
| rnb_ | Omar87: i went to jenin right after the massacre | Jan 15 15:26 |
| rnb_ | Omar87: it was appalling and i cant believe the "official" results about what happened there | Jan 15 15:26 |
| MinceR | Adus: m$ likes to quantify "security" as _publically_ acknowledged vulnerabilities, which is of course a lie | Jan 15 15:26 |
| rnb_ | Omar87: in 2002 | Jan 15 15:26 |
| Diablo-D3 | I agree with mincer here | Jan 15 15:26 |
| Diablo-D3 | microsoft wont fix vulnerabilities | Jan 15 15:26 |
| MinceR | Adus: performance is measured via benchmarks, which are very difficult to make impartial, if possible at all. | Jan 15 15:26 |
| Adus | MinceR: You have the typical excuse *everyone* uses when they say MS software is crap. "Oh, you can't measure it". Well then, sorry, but it's a baseless claim. | Jan 15 15:26 |
| Omar87 | rnb_: I really wish I could go too. The only time I've been to Jenin was when I was like 5 years old. | Jan 15 15:26 |
| MinceR | Adus: no, i'm preempting your typical excuses as a m$ fanboy. | Jan 15 15:27 |
| rnb_ | Omar87: ah, yes, you really CANT go, huh? | Jan 15 15:27 |
| Adus | MinceR: I don't know how you can realistically say the software is crap, yet have no basis to prove it and actually claim it can't be measured. Yet things that can be measured, like market share, are unimportant. | Jan 15 15:27 |
| Adus | It's just absurb. | Jan 15 15:27 |
| MinceR | Adus: regarding reliability, there probably are usable measures and i expect m$ to lose very badly on those grounds. | Jan 15 15:27 |
| Omar87 | rnb_: No, not in the current situation, unfortunately. | Jan 15 15:27 |
| MinceR | Adus: and usability is obviously a soft thing, so no measurements there. | Jan 15 15:28 |
| -BNc/#boycottnovell-[zoobab] Neelie Kroes did not answer questionq about software patents, she failed her exam and have to come back in second session: http://i5.be/ajA | Jan 15 15:28 | |
| phIRCe-local | Title: Kroes to face second hearing | Policies | EU governance | Commission | European Voice .::. Size~: 37.8 KB | Jan 15 15:28 |
| MinceR | Adus: i can show my experience for it. | Jan 15 15:28 |
| rnb_ | Omar87: you are live in jordan now? thats how i went to the west bank, via amman | Jan 15 15:28 |
| Adus | MinceR: And which browser woyld you suggest one uses? | Jan 15 15:28 |
| rnb_ | Omar87: amman -> king hussein bridge | Jan 15 15:28 |
| MinceR | Adus: i've been forced to use m$ products for a long time and they've always been disappointing. | Jan 15 15:28 |
| Omar87 | rnb_: Yup, I live in Jordan. | Jan 15 15:28 |
| Omar87 | rnb_: yeah, that's right. | Jan 15 15:28 |
| rnb_ | Omar87: i really liked amman | Jan 15 15:29 |
| MinceR | Adus: that's down to a lot of preferences, but i expect that Mozilla Firefox is a good choice for many, including me | Jan 15 15:29 |
| Omar87 | rnb_: cool. :-) | Jan 15 15:29 |
| Adus | See, I hate Firefox. Chrome I can do. Personally I use Opera. | Jan 15 15:29 |
| MinceR | (mainly because it's extensible and because it supports most (if not all) w3c standards, unlike IE.) | Jan 15 15:29 |
| rnb_ | Omar87: come up with some free software reason for me to come over there :) | Jan 15 15:29 |
| Adus | I find Firefox to be painfully slow, cpu and memory hungry. | Jan 15 15:29 |
| rnb_ | Omar87: i do foss consulting for governments! | Jan 15 15:29 |
| MinceR | Adus: but pretty much all web browsers conform to w3c standards more than IE does. | Jan 15 15:29 |
| Omar87 | rnb_: A couple weeks ago we had Jacob Appelbaum here. :-) | Jan 15 15:30 |
| rnb_ | Omar87: i'd love to come to jordan and go to the west bank again | Jan 15 15:30 |
| rnb_ | rnb_: no way.. i know jacob quite well | Jan 15 15:30 |
| MinceR | Adus: which makes them by definition better web browsers than m$'s m$-web browser :> | Jan 15 15:30 |
| rnb_ | rnb_: he's from san francisco, too | Jan 15 15:30 |
| MinceR | Adus: IE also has a history of being extremely insecure | Jan 15 15:30 |
| Omar87 | rnb_: yup, he was here a couple weeks ago. | Jan 15 15:30 |
| rnb_ | rnb_: what the hell did he have to say though? he doesnt do stuff | Jan 15 15:30 |
| cubezzz | lynx ftw | Jan 15 15:30 |
| MinceR | (see the recent google issue as an example) | Jan 15 15:30 |
| MinceR | btw, i actually use multiple web browsers | Jan 15 15:30 |
| cubezzz | quickie weather report? lynx | Jan 15 15:31 |
| rnb_ | Omar87: or rather, jacob doesnt do foss advocacy | Jan 15 15:31 |
| Adus | MinceR: That's not really measurable either, and it's my understanding that statistically MS patch the bugs quicker than other browser vendors historitically. | Jan 15 15:31 |
| Omar87 | rnb_: We also had Jacob Redding, Jon Philips, Joi Ito (a couple times) and even Michel Baker! :D | Jan 15 15:31 |
| rnb_ | Omar87: why was he there? | Jan 15 15:31 |
| MinceR | there's at least one extra instance for Adobe Trash so that when it crashes or starts eating CPU, it can be killed and restarted. | Jan 15 15:31 |
| MinceR | Adus: actually m$ likes to downplay bugs and leave some of them around for years. | Jan 15 15:31 |
| *Adus grumbles | Jan 15 15:31 | |
| MinceR | Adus: an extreme example is AutoPlay. | Jan 15 15:31 |
| Adus | Don't mention adope to me | Jan 15 15:31 |
| Omar87 | rnb_: He came to give us a speech about the Tor project and the Cold Boot Attack. | Jan 15 15:31 |
| Adus | adobe* | Jan 15 15:32 |
| MinceR | Adus: i guess adobe was your best friend until you came up with silverblight. | Jan 15 15:32 |
| rnb_ | Omar87: not only that, i would say jacob is anti-palestinian | Jan 15 15:32 |
| Adus | MinceR: No, I've never liked Adobe. I can't say I'm a huge fan of silverlight either | Jan 15 15:32 |
| Omar87 | rnb_: Nope, that's not true. | Jan 15 15:32 |
| MinceR | Adus: oh, and also with your me-too-pdf format, the name of which i've forgotten. :> | Jan 15 15:32 |
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| rnb_ | Omar87: based on discussions i've had with him about it (although he dosnt really know much about it) | Jan 15 15:32 |
| DaemonFC | Adus: Market share is flawed, for example, some stat tracking companies say IE is 50% of web surfers, some say it's still around 60% | Jan 15 15:32 |
| rnb_ | Omar87: it -is- true | Jan 15 15:32 |
| Adus | I disagree with whole idea of browser plugins. | Jan 15 15:32 |
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| DaemonFC | of course one thing they do all agree on is that it's been falling consistently sicne 2004 | Jan 15 15:33 |
| MinceR | i disagree with allowing crap like Trash to run in a browser | Jan 15 15:33 |
| Omar87 | rnb_: We took him down town for lunch and he clearly explained that he's against the massecre in Gaza. | Jan 15 15:33 |
| MinceR | but there are a couple of browser add-ons i could hardly live without :) | Jan 15 15:33 |
| MinceR | (mostly AdBlock Plus and NoScript) | Jan 15 15:33 |
| Adus | I'm very much of the opinion that a browser should browse the web | Jan 15 15:33 |
| rnb_ | Omar87: whatever.. he's a chameleon, if you know what i mean | Jan 15 15:33 |
| Adus | not mow my lawn and remind me to call my dad every week | Jan 15 15:33 |
| Adus | :p | Jan 15 15:33 |
| rnb_ | Omar87: his goal is popularity | Jan 15 15:33 |
| Omar87 | rnb_: By the way, I really don't like for for who he is. | Jan 15 15:34 |
| DaemonFC | Adus: If Microsoft was really concerned about Windows security, they'd give you the option of removing IE | Jan 15 15:34 |
| MinceR | Adus: that's the opinion chromium/chrome is aimed at, afaik | Jan 15 15:34 |
| DaemonFC | the vast majority of security flaws in Windows are actually IE bugs | Jan 15 15:34 |
| MinceR | Adus: of course, there are a lot of light WebKit^W KHTML-based browsers for that too. :> | Jan 15 15:34 |
| DaemonFC | over 3/4ths of them | Jan 15 15:34 |
| Adus | MinceR: Yeh, but Chrome is still a bit meh. I'm happy with Opera atm. | Jan 15 15:34 |
| Adus | If you don't use the extra junk in opera | Jan 15 15:34 |
| Adus | it's very speedy and nice | Jan 15 15:34 |
| MinceR | Adus: i'm not going to raise any issues with your being happy with opera | Jan 15 15:34 |
| MinceR | i used it for ages. | Jan 15 15:34 |
| Adus | and I do like the gestures and landing page thingy | Jan 15 15:35 |
| DaemonFC | Adus: Try the 10.5 pre-alpha yet? | Jan 15 15:35 |
| MinceR | i still go back to use the Links sidebar sometimes. | Jan 15 15:35 |
| DaemonFC | it's faster than Chrome | Jan 15 15:35 |
| rnb_ | Omar87: sorry, what do you mean? "I really don't like for for who he is" | Jan 15 15:35 |
| Adus | DaemonFC: nah, I never upgrade my browser til it's stable | Jan 15 15:35 |
| Adus | but I did see the benchmarks | Jan 15 15:35 |
| MinceR | (since Firefox' DownThemAll! doesn't do copying selected links from the list) | Jan 15 15:35 |
| Adus | which showed it basically owned every other browser :p | Jan 15 15:35 |
| Adus | by a considerable margin in msot tests | Jan 15 15:35 |
| cubezzz | closed source | Jan 15 15:35 |
| MinceR | i'd miss NoScript though | Jan 15 15:35 |
| Omar87 | rnb_: I don't lik *him* for who he is. (As in, I don't really like him) | Jan 15 15:35 |
| DaemonFC | Which is odd considering that Opera has never led in performance | Jan 15 15:35 |
| MinceR | it helps a lot with current bloated web pages | Jan 15 15:35 |
| DaemonFC | they've never been terrible either | Jan 15 15:36 |
| Adus | DaemonFC: Actually, I disagree. Opera used to be very very fast | Jan 15 15:36 |
| Adus | until about 5/6 | Jan 15 15:36 |
| rnb_ | Omar87: i see.. i dont have anything against him but i have always found him kind of shallow | Jan 15 15:36 |
| Adus | then they tailed behind | Jan 15 15:36 |
| Adus | til 9ish | Jan 15 15:36 |
| rnb_ | Omar87: more interested in getting people to like him then anything else | Jan 15 15:36 |
| Omar87 | rnb_: Letting all the technical experience he has, I think he's so very naive. | Jan 15 15:36 |
| DaemonFC | Adus: Opera 3.62 :D | Jan 15 15:36 |
| rnb_ | Omar87: i'm very different than that | Jan 15 15:36 |
| DaemonFC | fit on a floppy disk | Jan 15 15:36 |
| DaemonFC | still ran on Windows 3.1 | Jan 15 15:36 |
| Adus | hehe. I think Opera has always been pretty good personally. It's been consistently good | Jan 15 15:37 |
| Adus | something that can't be said for any other browser really. | Jan 15 15:37 |
| Omar87 | rnb_: lol! He told us he used to date his friend's wife! :P | Jan 15 15:37 |
| rnb_ | Omar87: i agree, but that comes from what i mean.. he doesnt really want to take stands on things or have opinions... he just wants to be a popular internet "celebrity" | Jan 15 15:37 |
| Adus | brb | Jan 15 15:37 |
| Omar87 | rnb_: "They had this sort of 'open marriage'..", he said. :P | Jan 15 15:37 |
| rnb_ | Omar87: unfortunately, that DOES work in the internet world | Jan 15 15:37 |
| DaemonFC | Omar87: Those are the best kind | Jan 15 15:37 |
| rnb_ | Omar87: ick.. well, he was big in the SF "goth" scene.. they do weird stuff like that | Jan 15 15:38 |
| rnb_ | Omar87: anyway, enough about jacob | Jan 15 15:38 |
| rnb_ | Omar87: i got to the west bank in march of 2002, right after there were 7 or 8 suicide bombers in like 10 days | Jan 15 15:38 |
| rnb_ | Omar87: and the IDF re-occupied bethlehem | Jan 15 15:38 |
| rnb_ | Omar87: so i wasnt expecting it but there was a 24/7 curfew and open warfare happening all around us | Jan 15 15:39 |
| Omar87 | rnb_: Please, excuse me, don't call them "suicide bombers". | Jan 15 15:39 |
| rnb_ | Omar87: sorry, it's just a habit | Jan 15 15:39 |
| DaemonFC | Omar87: Martyrs of Allah is it them? | Jan 15 15:39 |
| rnb_ | Omar87: martyrs | Jan 15 15:39 |
| DaemonFC | *then | Jan 15 15:39 |
| Omar87 | DaemonFC: shut up | Jan 15 15:40 |
| DaemonFC | yeah, do you guys like keep a rubber stamp and chalk up the murders? | Jan 15 15:40 |
| rnb_ | DaemonFC: yes, martyrs or shahid | Jan 15 15:40 |
| DaemonFC | like points or something | Jan 15 15:40 |
| rnb_ | DaemonFC: i've seen IDF soldiers do that on their helmets | Jan 15 15:40 |
| MinceR | are they not suicide bombers? | Jan 15 15:40 |
| rnb_ | DaemonFC: "confirmed kills" | Jan 15 15:40 |
| Omar87 | DaemonFC: okay then.. I'm gonna shut you up. | Jan 15 15:40 |
| *zoobab80 has quit ("Page closed") | Jan 15 15:41 | |
| DaemonFC | MinceR: They bomb and simultaneously commit suicide | Jan 15 15:41 |
| MinceR | that's the image i got | Jan 15 15:41 |
| DaemonFC | so I would say suicide bomber is an accurate description | Jan 15 15:41 |
| Omar87 | rnb_: You might feel slightly annoyed from the way I just treated DaemonFC, but believe me, he's doing this to himself, and not me. | Jan 15 15:41 |
| MinceR | perhaps they're talking about something else? | Jan 15 15:41 |
| rnb_ | DaemonFC: someone who commits suicide in battle is historically seen as courageous in nearly every culture on earth | Jan 15 15:41 |
| -BNc/#boycottnovell-[anivar] RT @sunil_abraham: #Google using human rights to whitewash its business blunders? http://bit.ly/4Mod8R #china | Jan 15 15:42 | |
| Omar87 | rnb_: True. | Jan 15 15:42 |
| phIRCe-local | Title: Op-Ed Contributor - Try Different Keywords - NYTimes.com .::. Size~: 51.65 KB | Jan 15 15:42 |
| MinceR | rnb_: usually it isn't done directly, though | Jan 15 15:42 |
| DaemonFC | it's a tragedy that someone can be so feeble minded as to actually get talked into doing that | Jan 15 15:42 |
| rnb_ | DaemonFC: even in US hollywood films.. the soldier who says "you guys go, i'll stay and hold them off and die, etc" | Jan 15 15:42 |
| DaemonFC | rnb_: Against a military target, maybe | Jan 15 15:42 |
| MinceR | and not as the primary plan | Jan 15 15:42 |
| DaemonFC | murdering civilians is looked down upon almost universally | Jan 15 15:42 |
| Omar87 | DaemonFC: Why didn't you oppose the Kamikazis of Japan, huh? | Jan 15 15:42 |
| Diablo-D3 | Omar87: I dont think he was born yet | Jan 15 15:43 |
| MinceR | i think the kamikazis have stopped already :> | Jan 15 15:43 |
| DaemonFC | Omar87: They were fighting a war against another military | Jan 15 15:43 |
| rnb_ | DaemonFC: israel makes itself a military target | Jan 15 15:43 |
| DaemonFC | and yeah, MinceR is right | Jan 15 15:43 |
| Omar87 | DaemonFC: oh, yeah! I know why! Because "Fox News" didn't tell you that?? :D | Jan 15 15:43 |
| MinceR | but yes, as far as i know they were suicide bombers | Jan 15 15:43 |
| DaemonFC | the war didn't end well for them | Jan 15 15:43 |
| DaemonFC | rnb_: The murder of unarmed civilians is just pure cowardice | Jan 15 15:43 |
| Omar87 | DaemonFC: Okay? Then the the same thing happened to the Palestinians as well! | Jan 15 15:43 |
| DaemonFC | no god worth worshipping would tell you to butcher unarmed civilians | Jan 15 15:44 |
| rnb_ | DaemonFC: the IDF kills unarmed civilians nearly every single day | Jan 15 15:44 |
| Omar87 | DaemonFC: They were raped, mass-murreded, they got kicked out of their own houses and villages. | Jan 15 15:44 |
| rnb_ | DaemonFC: so are they cowards? | Jan 15 15:44 |
| DaemonFC | rnb_: So your goal is to lower yourself to their standards? | Jan 15 15:44 |
| DaemonFC | Is it a contest? | Jan 15 15:44 |
| rnb_ | DaemonFC: of course not, the point is that your statement is incoherent | Jan 15 15:44 |
| Omar87 | DaemonFC: most of them saw their children and parents getting slaughtered brutally right in front of them. | Jan 15 15:44 |
| DaemonFC | I'd still pick on someone my own size | Jan 15 15:45 |
| Omar87 | rnb_: It's no use. Don't waste your time with him. | Jan 15 15:45 |
| DaemonFC | not draw unarmed women and children into the mess | Jan 15 15:45 |
| DaemonFC | Muslims do just that, they don't discern their targets | Jan 15 15:46 |
| DaemonFC | they don't just take on uniformed soldiers, they kill innocent people, intentionally | Jan 15 15:46 |
| rnb_ | DaemonFC: that's the dumbest thing i've ever heard | Jan 15 15:46 |
| Diablo-D3 | you know | Jan 15 15:46 |
| DaemonFC | and until that stops, I have zero sympathy for you or your cause | Jan 15 15:46 |
| Diablo-D3 | the alpha cpu family was pretty nice | Jan 15 15:47 |
| rnb_ | DaemonFC: i dont really think anyone cares if you have sympathy or not | Jan 15 15:47 |
| rnb_ | DaemonFC: who the hell are you? | Jan 15 15:47 |
| Diablo-D3 | rnb_: hes a troll | Jan 15 15:47 |
| Diablo-D3 | most of us have him on ignore | Jan 15 15:47 |
| rnb_ | oh, i see | Jan 15 15:47 |
| DaemonFC | rnb_: You're right, because I'd be one of your victims, given the chance | Jan 15 15:47 |
| DaemonFC | that's just how you people operate I think | Jan 15 15:47 |
| -BNc/#boycottnovell-[zoobab] Spanish Presidency renames the ACTA in the Trade Agreement Against Forgery : http://i5.be/ajB | Jan 15 15:48 | |
| DaemonFC | You don't just fight the people who have done something to you | Jan 15 15:48 |
| rnb_ | DaemonFC: you people? i'm from a steelworker family in northeast ohio, roman catholic | Jan 15 15:48 |
| rnb_ | DaemonFC: so who is "you people" ? | Jan 15 15:48 |
| DaemonFC | you murder anyone that's convenient | Jan 15 15:48 |
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| DaemonFC | Muslim terrorists are a good definition of irrational lashing out | Jan 15 15:49 |
| MinceR | nah, roman catholics have ways of murdering people that don't involve killing themselves :> | Jan 15 15:49 |
| Omar87 | rnb_: Just ignore him, of course that's unless you have no problem of getting arrested for murder tonight. :-) | Jan 15 15:49 |
| rnb_ | MinceR: well, we kill ourselves with guilt-induced neuroses | Jan 15 15:49 |
| rnb_ | MinceR: :) | Jan 15 15:49 |
| rnb_ | Omar87: :) i will ignore him | Jan 15 15:50 |
| DaemonFC | MinceR: Catholics could never be suicide bombers cause none of them are really into it that much | Jan 15 15:50 |
| Omar87 | rnb_: lol :-P | Jan 15 15:50 |
| rnb_ | Omar87: did you ever do work with the arabeyes project? | Jan 15 15:50 |
| DaemonFC | they'd be like "You go first" "No, you go first!" | Jan 15 15:50 |
| Omar87 | rnb_: Nope. But trust me. they're not as good as they sound. | Jan 15 15:50 |
| rnb_ | Omar87: i only worked with them on a couple things a long time ago | Jan 15 15:51 |
| Omar87 | rnb_: I see. | Jan 15 15:51 |
| rnb_ | Omar87: actually, i'd really like to get back involved with middle east FOSS stuff | Jan 15 15:51 |
| DaemonFC | MinceR: Catholicism is what you say you're into if you're going into politics | Jan 15 15:51 |
| rnb_ | Omar87: for a long time, i've mostly been working on FOSS stuff in latin america | Jan 15 15:51 |
| DaemonFC | one of those religious, but not too religious deals | Jan 15 15:51 |
| rnb_ | Omar87: but, like i said, i miss the middle east | Jan 15 15:52 |
| -BNc/#boycottnovell-[zoobab] Spanish Presidency on Compat: "a constructive search for efficient and non-discriminatory solutions will be pursued" http://i5.be/ajB | Jan 15 15:52 | |
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| DaemonFC | either that or Methodism | Jan 15 15:52 |
| Omar87 | rnb_: Sure! Just give me a message any time you feel like visiting Jordan. :-) | Jan 15 15:52 |
| Omar87 | rnb_: Cool! | Jan 15 15:52 |
| rnb_ | Omar87: do you help organize with FOSS groups in jordan? | Jan 15 15:52 |
| Adus | I should probably actually do some work today, I've spent all day talkin to you guys :p | Jan 15 15:52 |
| MinceR | 165017 < DaemonFC> MinceR: Catholicism is what you say you're into if you're going into politics | Jan 15 15:52 |
| MinceR | only in Jesusland. | Jan 15 15:52 |
| Omar87 | rnb_: We, at Jordan Open Source Association are planning for some good stuff. | Jan 15 15:53 |
| MinceR | there are more enlightened countries on Earth. :> | Jan 15 15:53 |
| rnb_ | Omar87: i would like to help bring foss technology and hardware to the west bank again | Jan 15 15:53 |
| Omar87 | rnb_: I'm one of the founders of the Jordan Open Source Association. | Jan 15 15:53 |
| DaemonFC | MinceR: I remember seeing a poll at one point where Americans said they trusted athiests less than Muslims | Jan 15 15:53 |
| Adus | Us poor atheists :p | Jan 15 15:53 |
| DaemonFC | I remember wondering which athiests hijacked planes | Jan 15 15:53 |
| rnb_ | Omar87: like, help set up computer labs in deheishe for students | Jan 15 15:53 |
| DaemonFC | or bombed something | Jan 15 15:53 |
| Omar87 | rnb_: you have a twitter? | Jan 15 15:53 |
| *Diablo-D3 goes back to eating babies and running for the senate | Jan 15 15:53 | |
| MinceR | DaemonFC: i rest my case. | Jan 15 15:54 |
| MinceR | Diablo-D3: what, you're a roman catholic? | Jan 15 15:54 |
| MinceR | or protestant? | Jan 15 15:54 |
| rnb_ | Omar87: and help set up media labs for people doing independent media from the west bank.. i worked with bethlehem tv on a project like that | Jan 15 15:54 |
| Diablo-D3 | neither, I was making a joke | Jan 15 15:54 |
| MinceR | or some other kind of christian? | Jan 15 15:54 |
| MinceR | oh. | Jan 15 15:54 |
| *Diablo-D3 whaps MinceR | Jan 15 15:54 | |
| rnb_ | Omar87: hm, no, i dont use twitter.. i used to use identi.ca ... but mmm | Jan 15 15:54 |
| *MinceR hhtmls Diablo-D3 | Jan 15 15:54 | |
| Adus | I mean, people have been atheists and done evil things. But there has never been an atheist who has done evil things because they are an atheist I can think of. | Jan 15 15:54 |
| Omar87 | rnb_: cool! | Jan 15 15:54 |
| Adus | That's not the case for the religion :p | Jan 15 15:54 |
| rnb_ | Omar87: i'll msg you my email | Jan 15 15:54 |
| DaemonFC | MinceR: I think I'll be a Unitarian Universalist so nobody knows what the hell I believe in | Jan 15 15:55 |
| Diablo-D3 | so | Jan 15 15:55 |
| DaemonFC | :) | Jan 15 15:55 |
| Omar87 | rnb_: Sure. | Jan 15 15:55 |
| Diablo-D3 | how the hell did we get from | Jan 15 15:55 |
| Diablo-D3 | hating microsoft | Jan 15 15:55 |
| MinceR | DaemonFC: neither will you? | Jan 15 15:55 |
| Diablo-D3 | to | Jan 15 15:55 |
| Diablo-D3 | hating religion | Jan 15 15:55 |
| DaemonFC | MinceR: Exactly | Jan 15 15:55 |
| MinceR | Diablo-D3: m$ is a cult and a religion. | Jan 15 15:55 |
| rnb_ | if you send me an email, we can continue to talk there | Jan 15 15:55 |
| MinceR | Diablo-D3: and so is crApple. | Jan 15 15:55 |
| *Diablo-D3 finds a peice of white plastic and beats MinceR with it | Jan 15 15:55 | |
| *MinceR breaks it on impact | Jan 15 15:55 | |
| MinceR | oops, poor quality. | Jan 15 15:55 |
| Diablo-D3 | goddamnit china! | Jan 15 15:56 |
| Adus | Diablo-D3: Maybe not Microsoft. But Apple is almost like a religion :p | Jan 15 15:56 |
| MinceR | no, not almost | Jan 15 15:56 |
| Adus | Apple fanboism. | Jan 15 15:56 |
| MinceR | and m$ is just as much of a religion | Jan 15 15:56 |
| Diablo-D3 | ms is just mass apathy. | Jan 15 15:56 |
| MinceR | with basic dogma like "we've got the best people and the best products" and the doctrine of Equally Evil | Jan 15 15:56 |
| DaemonFC | Adus: Crapple fanboys are the only thing more irritating that Microsoft fanboys | Jan 15 15:56 |
| Diablo-D3 | I dunno | Jan 15 15:56 |
| Adus | I think Nintendo fanboys are more annoying actually. | Jan 15 15:57 |
| Diablo-D3 | some of those booth babes apple has I wouldnt mind hitting | Jan 15 15:57 |
| DaemonFC | Adus: Nothing wrong with Nintendo | Jan 15 15:57 |
| Diablo-D3 | probably all lesbians though :< | Jan 15 15:57 |
| DaemonFC | I like my Wii :) | Jan 15 15:57 |
| Adus | DaemonFC: No, but the fanboys are... | Jan 15 15:57 |
| MinceR | dunno, there's a lot of overlap in the irritatingness range of m$ fanboys and crApple fanboys. | Jan 15 15:57 |
| trmanco | http://en.rian.ru/russia/20100115/157558900.html | Jan 15 15:57 |
| phIRCe-local | Title: Главные новости часа | Лента новостей "РИА Новости" .::. Size~: 1.39 KB | Jan 15 15:57 |
| MinceR | i don't hear so much about Nintendo fanboys, but maybe that's because i care little about consoles. | Jan 15 15:57 |
| DaemonFC | MinceR: There's a much greater ratio of Crapple fanboys given their customer base size | Jan 15 15:58 |
| Adus | MinceR: Very few people queue up at midnight to get their hands on the latest MS software :p | Jan 15 15:58 |
| MinceR | DaemonFC: that's probably true. | Jan 15 15:58 |
| DaemonFC | Microsoft fanboys are less rabid and more dilated per capita | Jan 15 15:58 |
| trmanco | http://en.rian.ru/russia/20100115/157558900.html | Jan 15 15:58 |
| phIRCe-local | Title: Главные новости часа | Лента новостей "РИА Новости" .::. Size~: 1.39 KB | Jan 15 15:58 |
| MinceR | Adus: but how many people hold parties celebrating the release of a minor update to OSX? | Jan 15 15:58 |
| Adus | MinceR: Oh come on, that was such a bad marketing stunt | Jan 15 15:58 |
| MinceR | Adus: organized by crApple, no less? :> | Jan 15 15:58 |
| Adus | How many people actualyl did it? :p | Jan 15 15:58 |
| DaemonFC | the net result is that it seems like there's 10 times as many Crapple fanboys and they're twice as annoying | Jan 15 15:58 |
| DaemonFC | :) | Jan 15 15:58 |
| MinceR | yes, it was a bad marketing stunt in an endless series of bad marketing stunts | Jan 15 15:59 |
| Adus | Microsoft fanboys are Microsoft fanboys out of convenience. | Jan 15 15:59 |
| MinceR | i've seen people bragging about doing it in this channel. | Jan 15 15:59 |
| Adus | Apple fanboys are the sort of people who are in mid conversation with you, and you move your wrist, your watch catches the light and they go | Jan 15 15:59 |
| Adus | "OOooh, shiny" | Jan 15 15:59 |
| Adus | and lose their thread of conversation | Jan 15 15:59 |
| Adus | :p | Jan 15 15:59 |
| DaemonFC | Adus: almost nobody uses Microsoft software because they want to or because they enjoy buying it | Jan 15 15:59 |
| MinceR | nope | Jan 15 15:59 |
| MinceR | they'd say "ooooh, shiny... but my hypePhone is shinier!" | Jan 15 15:59 |
| MinceR | and try to derail the conversation | Jan 15 15:59 |
| MinceR | well, they don't pronounce the "hype" part correctly though | Jan 15 16:00 |
| DaemonFC | MinceR: And my hypePheone like totally has a clock, AND I only agreed to a two year AT&T contract to get this $500 steal | Jan 15 16:00 |
| DaemonFC | :) | Jan 15 16:00 |
| MinceR | lol | Jan 15 16:00 |
| Adus | I had an iPhone, I was unimpressed. Didn't bother getting a 3G or 3GS. Switched to something else. | Jan 15 16:00 |
| DaemonFC | Aren't I just the smarted thing that ever lives? :D | Jan 15 16:00 |
| MinceR | i have a Qtek 9100, but i'm planning to switch away from winmob. | Jan 15 16:01 |
| -BNc/#boycottnovell-[anivar] RT @sunil_abraham: @gkjohn What about all the orkut arrests in India? Was there any push back to requests from the Indian police? | Jan 15 16:01 | |
| MinceR | sure it multitasks, but it's otherwise slow and buggy as hell. | Jan 15 16:01 |
| Adus | I get a free winmob phone from work, so I use that. :p | Jan 15 16:01 |
| DaemonFC | Windows multitasks too, it can boot and crash at the same time | Jan 15 16:01 |
| Adus | Only have to pay for my personal calls. | Jan 15 16:01 |
| MinceR | i guess it was a step up from Palm OS 5 anyway. | Jan 15 16:01 |
| Adus | I actually quite liek WinMob, and Android actually. | Jan 15 16:01 |
| MinceR | i actually quite hate winmob and i don't like android much either | Jan 15 16:02 |
| DaemonFC | Adus: I remember installing Windows 98 and having the INSTALLER bsod! | Jan 15 16:02 |
| Adus | I was thinking about getting that new Samsung Android phone | Jan 15 16:02 |
| MinceR | DaemonFC: winxp has that feature too | Jan 15 16:02 |
| DaemonFC | like before it even rebooted into Windows | Jan 15 16:02 |
| MinceR | DaemonFC: PLUS it automatically reboots on that BSoD | Jan 15 16:02 |
| MinceR | "NOW how much would you pay?" | Jan 15 16:02 |
| Adus | No BSOD on Xbox, we get the BBOD instead :p | Jan 15 16:02 |
| DaemonFC | Yeah, it reboots before you can see what the error message says | Jan 15 16:02 |
| DaemonFC | thats always nice | Jan 15 16:02 |
| Adus | DaemonFC: It's nearly always IRQL_LESS_THAN_OR_EQUAL | Jan 15 16:03 |
| Adus | if in doubt, assume it's that | Jan 15 16:03 |
| Adus | :p | Jan 15 16:03 |
| DaemonFC | mmhm | Jan 15 16:03 |
| DaemonFC | wireless USB antenna | Jan 15 16:03 |
| DaemonFC | does it nearly every time | Jan 15 16:03 |
| Adus | As that the most common error drivers cause, when they return "device_gone" or whatever it is. | Jan 15 16:03 |
| MinceR | how intuitive. | Jan 15 16:03 |
| MinceR | i've always assumed IRQL_LESS_THAN_EQUAL to mean device_gone! | Jan 15 16:03 |
| DaemonFC | Adus: And it's because Windows crams as much shit as it can onto each IRQ channel | Jan 15 16:03 |
| Adus | Don't you remember when you had the set the IRQ Levels yourself? :p | Jan 15 16:04 |
| MinceR | i do | Jan 15 16:04 |
| DaemonFC | and Windows 7 won't let you fix the problem by manually assigning one | Jan 15 16:04 |
| MinceR | and i remember things actually working | Jan 15 16:04 |
| Adus | I also remember spending hours trying to get a game to work | Jan 15 16:04 |
| Adus | :p | Jan 15 16:04 |
| MinceR | unlike win98 which sometimes installs the same hardware more than once, and then they clash. | Jan 15 16:04 |
| MinceR | and you can't get rid of either. | Jan 15 16:04 |
| DaemonFC | the last time Microsoft managed to do anything close to right was probably DOS | Jan 15 16:04 |
| MinceR | then there's Linux where there's never been any IRQ issues at all, somehow. | Jan 15 16:05 |
| DaemonFC | it was simple, stupid, got out of the way when something that had real work to do told it to | Jan 15 16:05 |
| Adus | MinceR: Linux has it's own share of driver hell. | Jan 15 16:05 |
| MinceR | DaemonFC: it was easy for them, they bought the code others stole from DRI. | Jan 15 16:05 |
| MinceR | Adus: yes, when the hw manufacturer can't be bothered to develop a driver or support its development. | Jan 15 16:05 |
| DaemonFC | Adus: Mostly the binary blob crap | Jan 15 16:05 |
| Adus | I think ultimately, it boils down to the same thing on all platforms: Most hardware developers *suck* at writing drivers competently. | Jan 15 16:05 |
| MinceR | Adus: and when they end up making a proprietary driver | Jan 15 16:05 |
| DaemonFC | I don't think I've ever had any driver included in the kernel bomb out on me for no reason | Jan 15 16:05 |
| DaemonFC | it's pretty much always been proprietary video drivers | Jan 15 16:06 |
| MinceR | i don't think i had either. | Jan 15 16:06 |
| Adus | DaemonFC: I've never had a signed driver for Win64 bomb out on me. | Jan 15 16:06 |
| MinceR | Adus: because you never had drivers for win64? :> | Jan 15 16:06 |
| Adus | If drivers have been somewhat evaluated by Microsoft and I assume the kernel maintainers | Jan 15 16:06 |
| DaemonFC | Adus: All 64-bit Windows drivers have to be signed, so that means that the defective Netgear driver that BSODs must be signed | Jan 15 16:06 |
| Adus | they are generally pretty good. | Jan 15 16:06 |
| DaemonFC | there's no way Microsoft used that thing more than 5 minutes without a crash | Jan 15 16:07 |
| Adus | DaemonFC: By default, yeh, You can turn that off if you want. | Jan 15 16:07 |
| DaemonFC | so why do they rubber stamp it? | Jan 15 16:07 |
| MinceR | money. | Jan 15 16:07 |
| Adus | You get a little "Driver Testing Mode" thingy on your desktop :p | Jan 15 16:07 |
| DaemonFC | Adus: No, it's mandatory | Jan 15 16:07 |
| DaemonFC | as of Vista SP2 | Jan 15 16:07 |
| Adus | DaemonFC: No, it's not. | Jan 15 16:07 |
| Adus | You can switch it off | Jan 15 16:07 |
| Adus | In Win 7 | Jan 15 16:07 |
| DaemonFC | Microsoft removed that ability | Jan 15 16:07 |
| Adus | I have it off. | Jan 15 16:07 |
| DaemonFC | Adus: I remember being pissed about that cause SP2 broke PeerGuardian | Jan 15 16:08 |
| DaemonFC | used to be you could boot with the driver signature check disabled | Jan 15 16:08 |
| Adus | http://www.raymond.cc/blog/archives/2009/08/24/loading-unsigned-drivers-in-windows-7-and-vista-64-bit-x64/ | Jan 15 16:08 |
| phIRCe-local | Title: Loading Unsigned Drivers in Windows 7 and Vista 64-bit (x64) » Raymond.CC Blog .::. Size~: 70.2 KB | Jan 15 16:08 |
| DaemonFC | Microsoft is using that to fleece hardware makers, not to make sure the drivers won't randomly kill Windows | Jan 15 16:08 |
| Adus | You can do it from the command line, can't remember what the command is though | Jan 15 16:08 |
| Adus | something DISABLE_INTEGRITY_CHECKS | Jan 15 16:09 |
| Adus | It puts your machine into test mode, but it does work. | Jan 15 16:09 |
| MinceR | i know how to do it from the boot command line of a livecd. :> | Jan 15 16:09 |
| Adus | How else are you going to write drivers for x64 otherwise? :p | Jan 15 16:09 |
| DaemonFC | It's really offensive that Microsoft not only locks out people that can't afford to pay the signing fee, but doesn't even use the signing as a form of quality control | Jan 15 16:09 |
| MinceR | hm, x64, the architecture of the famous 8064 and its successors. wait, what? | Jan 15 16:09 |
| DaemonFC | it's all about the money | Jan 15 16:09 |
| DaemonFC | and the control | Jan 15 16:09 |
| Adus | DaemonFC: The drivers do have to meet certain standards. | Jan 15 16:10 |
| Adus | I imagine the process isn't perfect. | Jan 15 16:10 |
| DaemonFC | yeah, the mooolah standard | Jan 15 16:10 |
| DaemonFC | :D | Jan 15 16:10 |
| MinceR | :> | Jan 15 16:10 |
| MinceR | imagine that. a process at m$ not being perfect! | Jan 15 16:10 |
| DaemonFC | oh, I'm certain that MS has the Moolah Standard down perfectly | Jan 15 16:11 |
| DaemonFC | absolutely sure | Jan 15 16:11 |
| DaemonFC | that's the standard to meet to get your driver signed, fork over some lettuce | Jan 15 16:11 |
| DaemonFC | :D | Jan 15 16:11 |
| DaemonFC | some cabbage | Jan 15 16:11 |
| DaemonFC | some greenbacks even | Jan 15 16:11 |
| DaemonFC | some mucho dinero is also nice | Jan 15 16:12 |
| Adus | Our canteen does do rather awesome breakfasts. | Jan 15 16:12 |
| MinceR | lol | Jan 15 16:12 |
| MinceR | so after all m$ managed to do something well? | Jan 15 16:13 |
| MinceR | i guess it must be outsourced or something. | Jan 15 16:13 |
| DaemonFC | Adus: Did they insist on integrating Monoposoft Idiot Exploiter into your intestines? | Jan 15 16:13 |
| Adus | No, but they do cook a cracking sausage :p | Jan 15 16:14 |
| Adus | Sausage and bacon bap.... mmmmhhhhhh | Jan 15 16:14 |
| Adus | and a coffee | Jan 15 16:14 |
| Adus | :p | Jan 15 16:14 |
| DaemonFC | mmhm, IE is going to burst out of your chest | Jan 15 16:14 |
| DaemonFC | I saw that movie | Jan 15 16:14 |
| Adus | Like in Alien? | Jan 15 16:14 |
| DaemonFC | goo lay its eggs somewhere | Jan 15 16:14 |
| DaemonFC | yeah | Jan 15 16:14 |
| amarsh04 | as in AL*IE*N | Jan 15 16:14 |
| Adus | Yeh, it's possible. But damn, it's worth it. | Jan 15 16:15 |
| MinceR | yeah, better end your pointless life, giving birth to a Xenomorph. | Jan 15 16:15 |
| DaemonFC | dust off, nuke the site from orbit, install Linux | Jan 15 16:15 |
| DaemonFC | it's the only way to be sure | Jan 15 16:15 |
| Adus | We actually have 1 Linux server in this building! | Jan 15 16:15 |
| Adus | Running Madriva I believe it is. | Jan 15 16:16 |
| MinceR | what for? | Jan 15 16:16 |
| DaemonFC | mmmhm, leak some pictures of it out | Jan 15 16:16 |
| Adus | Mandriva* | Jan 15 16:16 |
| Adus | MinceR: It's running our Perforce server. | Jan 15 16:16 |
| DaemonFC | Ballmer dry humping it would be a nice shot to get | Jan 15 16:16 |
| MinceR | oh-so-perfect winblows can't manage that task? | Jan 15 16:16 |
| Adus | it was Windows Server 2003, but they moved to Linux. | Jan 15 16:16 |
| MinceR | or it merely needs a machine with ten times the power to do it? | Jan 15 16:16 |
| Adus | Our Head of CTG dude is a bit of a Linux nut :p | Jan 15 16:16 |
| MinceR | and you haven't burned him at the stake yet? | Jan 15 16:17 |
| DaemonFC | And he didn't get fired over this? | Jan 15 16:17 |
| DaemonFC | Adus: Hotmail ran on FreeBSD for years | Jan 15 16:17 |
| DaemonFC | I have a hunch it still does | Jan 15 16:17 |
| Adus | No, he got permission. he sent out benchmarks. Windows Server 2008 R2 was basically identical performance, but it was in alpha at the time | Jan 15 16:17 |
| Adus | and we desperately needed a new box and new OS, so they went with Linux | Jan 15 16:17 |
| DaemonFC | they just make it look like Windows can handle it | Jan 15 16:17 |
| MinceR | also, m$ web servers are hidden behind akamai's gnu/linux servers | Jan 15 16:18 |
| DaemonFC | just like I'm sure that Apple wouldn't ever use OS X Server to host Apple.com | Jan 15 16:18 |
| MinceR | they say it's cancer, but they can't live without it | Jan 15 16:18 |
| DaemonFC | they've got it rigged, it's still Red Hat Enterprise Linux probably | Jan 15 16:18 |
| Adus | We actually do run Windows on most of our servers. | Jan 15 16:18 |
| Adus | Xbox Live runs on Windows :) | Jan 15 16:19 |
| MinceR | who would have guessed that "The Best Developers In The World" couldn't code a "Server OS" that they themselves would trust enough to use? | Jan 15 16:19 |
| DaemonFC | yeah, Windows will never be good enough to handle that kind of abuse | Jan 15 16:19 |
| MinceR | and instead they use an OS written by people they look down on? | Jan 15 16:19 |
| DaemonFC | I just can't see them using Windows on anything that important | Jan 15 16:19 |
| DaemonFC | it's like asking for trouble | Jan 15 16:19 |
| DaemonFC | Adus: It's a toy | Jan 15 16:20 |
| DaemonFC | so yeah, appropriate | Jan 15 16:20 |
| Adus | We use Windows for XBL. THe only Linux server I know we have, is that one Perforce one :p | Jan 15 16:20 |
| DaemonFC | they probably know they'd never live it down if news leaked that they were running XBOX Live on Linux | Jan 15 16:20 |
| DaemonFC | XBOX Live is customers exploitation, Microsoft's hallmark | Jan 15 16:21 |
| DaemonFC | beat them for cash | Jan 15 16:21 |
| DaemonFC | turn them upside down and flog til it rains out | Jan 15 16:21 |
| MinceR | also, they've based the newest Sidekick OS on NetBSD | Jan 15 16:21 |
| MinceR | not winmob | Jan 15 16:21 |
| DaemonFC | MinceR: Someone was flashing around a Windows Mobile phone once, so I looked at it, played around with it a bit | Jan 15 16:22 |
| DaemonFC | was not impressed | Jan 15 16:22 |
| DaemonFC | slow, buggy, not that many good apps | Jan 15 16:22 |
| MinceR | "slow" doesn't even begin to describe it | Jan 15 16:23 |
| DaemonFC | I told him to carry it in his back pocket so that pocket Internet Explorer could be firmly integrated to his ass | Jan 15 16:23 |
| MinceR | it takes the damn thing at least 3 seconds to abort a call from pressing the button | Jan 15 16:23 |
| Adus | They are having an office move around today, now my team aren't moving desks. But everyone else moving around is starting to annoy me. | Jan 15 16:23 |
| DaemonFC | yeah, I was like "What the hell???" | Jan 15 16:23 |
| DaemonFC | I thought it had froze up | Jan 15 16:23 |
| DaemonFC | it did freeze up later | Jan 15 16:23 |
| Adus | I refused to give up my desk. I have a window here | Jan 15 16:24 |
| Adus | and I like it | Jan 15 16:24 |
| DaemonFC | the only good thing about Windows Mobile is that you can install Opera and ignore IE | Jan 15 16:24 |
| DaemonFC | but Opera runs on good phones, like Blackberry | Jan 15 16:24 |
| MinceR | blackberry sucks | Jan 15 16:25 |
| MinceR | they couldn't even manage to put a keyboard and a touchscreen into one device | Jan 15 16:25 |
| DaemonFC | Blackberry actually impressed me with their app collection | Jan 15 16:25 |
| Adus | Want to see my desk? It's cool :p | Jan 15 16:25 |
| MinceR | does it have "My Computer" on it? | Jan 15 16:25 |
| Adus | I mean my physical desk, not desktop :p | Jan 15 16:25 |
| MinceR | i figured that's how they imagined desks | Jan 15 16:26 |
| DaemonFC | Adus: I want you to plant a virus in the XBOX Live server, then once Microsoft's shields are down, the entire world can mount a counteroffensive | Jan 15 16:26 |
| DaemonFC | how's that? | Jan 15 16:26 |
| MinceR | and beside "My Computer", there ought to be "Recycle Bin" | Jan 15 16:26 |
| DaemonFC | totally original | Jan 15 16:26 |
| Adus | http://i48.tinypic.com/syryfo.jpg | Jan 15 16:26 |
| Adus | http://i46.tinypic.com/2iw8x76.jpg | Jan 15 16:26 |
| phIRCe-local | Title: Not a web page! Aborting image/jpeg type .::. Size~: 0 KB | Jan 15 16:26 |
| phIRCe-local | Title: Not a web page! Aborting image/jpeg type .::. Size~: 0 KB | Jan 15 16:26 |
| MinceR | full of dell crap, i see | Jan 15 16:26 |
| Adus | Microsoft use Dell and HP Hardware usually. | Jan 15 16:27 |
| MinceR | dell fits windows pretty well, they're both unreliable crap :> | Jan 15 16:27 |
| MinceR | also it fits xbox | Jan 15 16:27 |
| Adus | I'm not exactly tidy, as you can see :D | Jan 15 16:28 |
| MinceR | yeah, at least one PC there has a virus infection | Jan 15 16:28 |
| MinceR | by the virus called "windows" | Jan 15 16:28 |
| Adus | 2 PCs, 2 Xbox 360s :p | Jan 15 16:28 |
| DaemonFC | I hate Dell | Jan 15 16:28 |
| DaemonFC | I hate HP | Jan 15 16:28 |
| MinceR | i don't know hp's computers well enough to hate them | Jan 15 16:29 |
| Adus | Do you hate cute little puppies? | Jan 15 16:29 |
| MinceR | but i sure as hell hate their printers | Jan 15 16:29 |
| MinceR | Adus: i actually hate dogs too | Jan 15 16:29 |
| DaemonFC | Adus: Dell rips the heads off of puppies | Jan 15 16:29 |
| Adus | kittens? | Jan 15 16:29 |
| MinceR | kittens rule | Jan 15 16:29 |
| DaemonFC | and passes them to HP, which drinks the blood | Jan 15 16:29 |
| Adus | How about penguins? :p | Jan 15 16:29 |
| MinceR | i haven't met penguins in person :) | Jan 15 16:29 |
| Adus | The penguin was perfectly awesome until Linux hijacked it. | Jan 15 16:29 |
| Adus | :p | Jan 15 16:29 |
| MinceR | no, it became perfectly awesome when Linux adopted it. | Jan 15 16:30 |
| Adus | I have a penguin teddy and everytime someone at work sees it, they are like "So, you like Linux?" it's like "Umm, no. I like penguins" | Jan 15 16:30 |
| Adus | :p | Jan 15 16:30 |
| MinceR | pent | Jan 15 16:30 |
| MinceR | i mean | Jan 15 16:30 |
| MinceR | pwnt | Jan 15 16:31 |
| DaemonFC | http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TFNeBRc7W7s&feature=related | Jan 15 16:31 |
| phIRCe-local | Title: YouTube- Full Metal Jacket - Motivational Speech .::. Size~: 127.37 KB | Jan 15 16:31 |
| Adus | I'm planning on taking the penguin back some day | Jan 15 16:31 |
| Adus | I'm just trying to figure out how. | Jan 15 16:31 |
| MinceR | you could drop windows, GPLv3 it, work with CodeWeavers to make Wine perfectly compatible with it and offer Microsoft(r) Linux(tm) | Jan 15 16:33 |
| MinceR | (not SuSE Edition, or one of the others) | Jan 15 16:33 |
| Adus | Why do Microsoft need to do that, I thoguht we practically controlled novell these days? :p | Jan 15 16:33 |
| MinceR | sure, but you still keep a pretense of not doing so | Jan 15 16:33 |
| Adus | Oops | Jan 15 16:34 |
| MinceR | you could acquire novell though, as a step of the above | Jan 15 16:34 |
| MinceR | and then rename Microsoft Linux SuSE Edition to plain Microsoft Linux :> | Jan 15 16:34 |
| Adus | Would that be the honorable thing to do? :p | Jan 15 16:34 |
| MinceR | does honor matter to you? | Jan 15 16:34 |
| Adus | To me? of course. | Jan 15 16:34 |
| MinceR | does profit matter more to you? | Jan 15 16:35 |
| DaemonFC | that scene of FMJ makes me laugh every time | Jan 15 16:36 |
| Adus | MinceR: How much I get of that profit matters more to me :p | Jan 15 16:36 |
| MinceR | Adus: that explains why you work for m$ | Jan 15 16:37 |
| MinceR | Adus: but then why do you ask what the honorable thing would be? | Jan 15 16:37 |
| Adus | Public image. | Jan 15 16:37 |
| MinceR | ic | Jan 15 16:37 |
| MinceR | well, you've lost that battle already | Jan 15 16:37 |
| Adus | Microsoft are actually pretty respected by the general public, and you already know that. They were voted Americas most trusted company in 2008 :p | Jan 15 16:38 |
| MinceR | usians are the "general public" now? | Jan 15 16:38 |
| MinceR | i thought there were other parts of Earth too | Jan 15 16:38 |
| Adus | As they tell us when we do our anti-corruption training :p | Jan 15 16:38 |
| MinceR | i happen to be living on such a part | Jan 15 16:38 |
| MinceR | i can see why usians respect m$ | Jan 15 16:39 |
| MinceR | they're living the New American Dream(r) | Jan 15 16:39 |
| MinceR | (do anything it takes to get profit, rip people off, tread on people and live happily with a lot of money) | Jan 15 16:39 |
| Adus | I bet most people would own MS given the chance. | Jan 15 16:40 |
| MinceR | but guess what, the Cult of the Almighty Money is somewhat weaker in other parts. | Jan 15 16:40 |
| Adus | I would. I'd quite like that cash. | Jan 15 16:40 |
| MinceR | i would, and i've already told what i'd do with it. | Jan 15 16:40 |
| Adus | Say you couldn't change it | Jan 15 16:40 |
| Adus | you were just a silent partner? :p | Jan 15 16:40 |
| MinceR | then i'd sell my part of it | Jan 15 16:40 |
| MinceR | better get the money now, before the Evil Empire crumbles anyway :> | Jan 15 16:41 |
| Adus | and make money off the poor people MS have trodden on? :p | Jan 15 16:41 |
| MinceR | make money off the fool who gave me that part of m$ in the first place. | Jan 15 16:41 |
| Adus | I have some shares. | Jan 15 16:41 |
| MinceR | not surprising. | Jan 15 16:42 |
| Adus | In MS and Apple | Jan 15 16:42 |
| MinceR | still not surprising | Jan 15 16:42 |
| Adus | We also get an apple discount, which is nice. | Jan 15 16:42 |
| MinceR | yeah, if you plan to also get ripped off by crApple. | Jan 15 16:42 |
| Adus | I can't remember how much it is of Apple MS hold shares for. | Jan 15 16:42 |
| MinceR | then you can buy winblows, put it on the crApple iDiot Box, and be doubly ripped off | Jan 15 16:42 |
| MinceR | and be happy and proud of it | Jan 15 16:42 |
| Adus | Hehe. | Jan 15 16:43 |
| MinceR | and when it's bricked the next time crApple breaks Boot Camp, you can just buy another! | Jan 15 16:43 |
| Adus | Well, as MS are a major shareholder in Apple, I don't see the problem really :p | Jan 15 16:43 |
| Adus | and both companies have a history of working together, especially now apple seem to have fallen out with Google. | Jan 15 16:43 |
| Adus | I'd be very surprised if Apple and MS don't cosy up against Google madness :p | Jan 15 16:44 |
| MinceR | they're basically doing the same thing anyway | Jan 15 16:44 |
| MinceR | it's just that crApple isn't that good at it | Jan 15 16:44 |
| MinceR | i hope they won't be able to take m$'s place after m$ dies | Jan 15 16:44 |
| Adus | That's going to be a long time coming | Jan 15 16:44 |
| MinceR | that's what i expect a m$ shareholder to say | Jan 15 16:45 |
| Adus | and if it does happen, which I still don't think is likely to be any time inthe near future, it will be a slow drawn out affair | Jan 15 16:45 |
| Adus | like Sun :p | Jan 15 16:45 |
| MinceR | it's already a slow drawn-out affair | Jan 15 16:45 |
| Adus | What makes you say that? The last 2 finanical reports have been pretty promising given the economic climate. | Jan 15 16:45 |
| Adus | Not to mention Windows 7 is the fastest selling version of Windows ever. | Jan 15 16:46 |
| MinceR | m$ losing its grip on installed base and mindshare is what makes me say that. | Jan 15 16:46 |
| Adus | MinceR: Yeh, to the degree of rounding errors. Nothing significant. | Jan 15 16:46 |
| MinceR | so you're saying that GNU/Linux appearing preinstalled (in some cases in an instant-boot version) on consumer PCs is a "rounding error"? | Jan 15 16:47 |
| MinceR | and you're saying that Firefox taking the first place in installed base from IE in Germany is a "rounding error", too? | Jan 15 16:47 |
| Adus | MinceR: yes, a tiny tiny tiny proportion of sold Pcs | Jan 15 16:47 |
| Adus | :p | Jan 15 16:47 |
| Adus | Ok, Firefox/IE I'll give you | Jan 15 16:47 |
| MinceR | actually, Asus is going to ship SplashTop on all of its mainboards, afaik | Jan 15 16:47 |
| MinceR | and m$ has nothing to offer to run on smartbooks | Jan 15 16:48 |
| Adus | and the vast majority of consumers will still buy a PC with windows on top. | Jan 15 16:48 |
| MinceR | and m$ has already lost the battle for the mobile phone market. | Jan 15 16:48 |
| MinceR | ...which is getting more important | Jan 15 16:48 |
| Adus | But mobile has never been a big part of MS's business. So they haven't lost anything. So if they can make any ground in the future | Jan 15 16:49 |
| Adus | that's a gain/win | Jan 15 16:49 |
| Adus | not a lose | Jan 15 16:49 |
| MinceR | strange, i seem to remember something called WinCE and WinMob a while ago | Jan 15 16:49 |
| Adus | Neither of which were insanely popular | Jan 15 16:49 |
| MinceR | also, there was a lot of agony about trying to get people to buy winmob and zune | Jan 15 16:49 |
| MinceR | and some people say that mobile phones are going to take over many tasks that PCs do now | Jan 15 16:50 |
| DaemonFC | Zunes are too bad of a deal to be worth considering | Jan 15 16:50 |
| MinceR | the main point here is that consumers are realizing that there isn't only windows | Jan 15 16:50 |
| DaemonFC | they've got the price of an ipod, less features than a $20 Chinese MP3 player off ebay, and they only work with Windows | Jan 15 16:51 |
| MinceR | and they're being held hostage less by their apps | Jan 15 16:51 |
| MinceR | DaemonFC: so what? hypePods got successful with roughly the same parameters :> | Jan 15 16:51 |
| DaemonFC | Zune would need an upgrade to earn the privilege to be called a joke | Jan 15 16:52 |
| MinceR | the have the price of a hypePod, less features than a $20 Chinese MP3 player off ebay, and they only work with macos :> | Jan 15 16:52 |
| DaemonFC | MinceR: Not so | Jan 15 16:52 |
| DaemonFC | iPod will work on Linux | Jan 15 16:52 |
| MinceR | or it won't | Jan 15 16:52 |
| DaemonFC | it will | Jan 15 16:52 |
| MinceR | depending on whether the newest stupid trick crApple pulls will be cracked or not | Jan 15 16:52 |
| DaemonFC | Amarok, Rhythmbox, and Banshee can all sync it | Jan 15 16:52 |
| DaemonFC | Apple hasn't blocked it so far, why would they start? | Jan 15 16:52 |
| MinceR | really, they haven't? | Jan 15 16:53 |
| DaemonFC | Zune just plain DOES NOT WORK | Jan 15 16:53 |
| Adus | Is Amarok for Windows stable these days? | Jan 15 16:53 |
| DaemonFC | Adus: Nothing in the KDE For Windows group is all that reliable | Jan 15 16:53 |
| MinceR | http://www.eff.org/deeplinks/2008/11/apple-confuses-speech-dmca-violation | Jan 15 16:53 |
| phIRCe-local | Title: Apple Confuses Speech with a DMCA Violation | Electronic Frontier Foundation .::. Size~: 23.34 KB | Jan 15 16:53 |
| MinceR | what's this then? | Jan 15 16:53 |
| DaemonFC | plus it can't play AAC or MP3 | Jan 15 16:53 |
| DaemonFC | MinceR: I'm telling you, it works | Jan 15 16:54 |
| Adus | I use Foobar, really like it. | Jan 15 16:54 |
| DaemonFC | it works better on Linux than on Windows | Jan 15 16:54 |
| MinceR | DaemonFC: i'm telling you, the developers received DMCA c&d orders | Jan 15 16:54 |
| MinceR | and legal threats | Jan 15 16:54 |
| DaemonFC | on Windows you have to haul in iTunes which WILL fuck with all your shit | Jan 15 16:54 |
| MinceR | and crApple, m$ and pals are buying ever more fascist laws in the USA | Jan 15 16:54 |
| MinceR | and worldwide | Jan 15 16:54 |
| -BNc/#boycottnovell-[ml2mst] RT: @digiplace: RT @webupd8: Canonical To Bring Closed Source Apps Like iTunes And Photoshop To Ubuntu?!?! ~ Web Upd8 http://bit.ly/888D86 | Jan 15 16:55 | |
| DaemonFC | MinceR: I said it works, not that I'd recommend buying one | Jan 15 16:55 |
| phIRCe-local | Title: Canonical To Bring Closed Source Apps Like iTunes And Photoshop To Ubuntu?!?! ~ Web Upd8 .::. Size~: 133.83 KB | Jan 15 16:55 |
| DaemonFC | but given the Zune and iPod, I'd get the iPod | Jan 15 16:55 |
| MinceR | so if i were you, i wouldn't trust being able to use that paperweight with gnu/linux. | Jan 15 16:55 |
| DaemonFC | if those were the only choices | Jan 15 16:55 |
| MinceR | and especially not its future versions. | Jan 15 16:55 |
| DaemonFC | iPod can also be flashed over and have Rockbox installed on them | Jan 15 16:55 |
| MinceR | sure, and then you lose your warranty | Jan 15 16:56 |
| MinceR | though it might not be worth much to begin with, considering crApple's customer service. | Jan 15 16:56 |
| Adus | DaemonFC: Not all of them. | Jan 15 16:56 |
| Adus | The nano 2nd and 3rd gens still haven't been cracked afaik. | Jan 15 16:56 |
| DaemonFC | well, yeah, the battery is built in and Apple probably will refuse to change the battery if you have Rockbox on it | Jan 15 16:56 |
| DaemonFC | Adus: I've used RockBox on a 5th gen | Jan 15 16:57 |
| Adus | iPod 1g through 5.5g, iPod Mini and iPod Nano 1g | Jan 15 16:57 |
| DaemonFC | I'd flash over it with the official firmware before sending it in | Jan 15 16:57 |
| Adus | No Nano 2g or 3g | Jan 15 16:57 |
| Adus | :( | Jan 15 16:57 |
| MinceR | and hope they don't have any means to detect it | Jan 15 16:57 |
| Adus | I know the linux for iPod folks were working on cracking the nano 2nd and 3rd gen years ago, but presumably they enver succeeded | Jan 15 16:58 |
| Adus | which is a shame. | Jan 15 16:58 |
| MinceR | remember, this is the company that was planning to put water detectors into their products so they can claim that water damage killed their shoddy hardware, and it's the customer's fault | Jan 15 16:58 |
| MinceR | i don't know why people even buy hypePods, noname chinese music players are better. | Jan 15 16:58 |
| DaemonFC | Adus: The Sansa Fuze is my favorite player so far | Jan 15 16:58 |
| DaemonFC | FLAC and Vorbis in the official firmware | Jan 15 16:58 |
| MinceR | and those support more formats and properly support the USB Mass Storage Class. | Jan 15 16:58 |
| DaemonFC | no reason to flash over it | Jan 15 16:59 |
| -BNc/#boycottnovell-[ml2mst] It's only a survey. Nothing official ;-) | Jan 15 16:59 | |
| Adus | I got an iPod Nano as a leaving present from Eidos, I still use it | Jan 15 16:59 |
| MinceR | lol eidos | Jan 15 16:59 |
| Adus | it's alright, works fine with SharePod, so I don't need itunes | Jan 15 16:59 |
| DaemonFC | eidos..... | Jan 15 16:59 |
| MinceR | another company that's well known for putting out crap | Jan 15 16:59 |
| DaemonFC | Tomb Raider, Tomb Raider, and Tomb Raider | Jan 15 16:59 |
| Adus | Microsoft Research -> Eidos -> Codemasters -> Microsoft Game Studios | Jan 15 16:59 |
| DaemonFC | Lara Croft's tits get bigger every game | Jan 15 16:59 |
| Adus | is my career so far :p | Jan 15 16:59 |
| DaemonFC | Adus: So why not try to get on at Red Hat or something | Jan 15 17:00 |
| MinceR | it's against his religion | Jan 15 17:00 |
| Adus | Doing what? | Jan 15 17:00 |
| DaemonFC | a company that's not trying to fuck over everyone | Jan 15 17:00 |
| MinceR | Adus: developing software? | Jan 15 17:00 |
| Adus | MinceR: I doubt redhat have much need of my expertise. | Jan 15 17:00 |
| MinceR | there's a point | Jan 15 17:01 |
| DaemonFC | Adus: Sending your resume in wouldn't hurt anything | Jan 15 17:01 |
| Adus | I specialise in largely distributed server environments. XBL, MMOs and that sort of thing | Jan 15 17:01 |
| Adus | large-scale deployed apps | Jan 15 17:01 |
| Adus | I'm a Network Programmer | Jan 15 17:01 |
| Adus | :p | Jan 15 17:01 |
| Adus | As I said earlier, I very nearly went to google. | Jan 15 17:02 |
| DaemonFC | Ion Storm might be hiring? | Jan 15 17:02 |
| DaemonFC | ;) | Jan 15 17:02 |
| Adus | But I quite liek Games, and MS were offering more money :p | Jan 15 17:02 |
| MinceR | isn't ion storm a part of eidos? | Jan 15 17:02 |
| DaemonFC | MinceR: Was | Jan 15 17:02 |
| Adus | Ion are defunct :p | Jan 15 17:02 |
| Diablo-D3 | http://blogs.msdn.com/joehegarty/ | Jan 15 17:02 |
| Diablo-D3 | ohhai | Jan 15 17:02 |
| phIRCe-local | Title: Byte Nibble: Joe's Random Musings .::. Size~: 112.38 KB | Jan 15 17:02 |
| Adus | :) | Jan 15 17:02 |
| DaemonFC | John Romero blew threw all of eidos's money | Jan 15 17:03 |
| DaemonFC | gave them one game, that flopped | Jan 15 17:03 |
| DaemonFC | and then the Dallas office was closed | Jan 15 17:03 |
| MinceR | still, it was probably the best use of their money they ever had | Jan 15 17:03 |
| DaemonFC | *through | Jan 15 17:03 |
| Adus | Diablo-D3: Really not that interesting, hehe | Jan 15 17:03 |
| DaemonFC | I actually feel sorry for them when I see what he spent it on | Jan 15 17:03 |
| Adus | Eidos were bought out by Square were they not? | Jan 15 17:03 |
| Adus | and Midway by Warner? | Jan 15 17:04 |
| Adus | I know Warner were also looking at buying Codemasters, not heard anything more about that. | Jan 15 17:04 |
| Diablo-D3 | I find it hilarious .net took so long to get parallel programming constructs | Jan 15 17:05 |
| Diablo-D3 | and mono still doesnt have them, so its totally useless | Jan 15 17:05 |
| Diablo-D3 | java wins again <3 | Jan 15 17:05 |
| DaemonFC | Moonlight usually crashes Firefox | Jan 15 17:06 |
| DaemonFC | still doesn't load most Silverlight pages | Jan 15 17:06 |
| Adus | Diablo-D3: Well, the reason it took .NET so long is because it's built on all the parelell stuff for C++ | Jan 15 17:10 |
| Adus | and PPL is still very new | Jan 15 17:10 |
| *desu_ has quit (Remote closed the connection) | Jan 15 17:10 | |
| Adus | Though software somewhat standard at least. Microsoft PPL and Intel TBB are compatible. | Jan 15 17:11 |
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| Adus | Then TPL for .NET is just a wrapper on PPL really. | Jan 15 17:11 |
| Adus | Anyway, time for the pub. Have a good evening folks | Jan 15 17:25 |
| *Adus doffs hat | Jan 15 17:25 | |
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| Omar87 | So Hicham no longer comes here? | Jan 15 17:46 |
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| schestowitz | Omar87: no.. | Jan 15 18:21 |
| schestowitz | He was here a while ago, briedly | Jan 15 18:21 |
| schestowitz | *briefly | Jan 15 18:22 |
| Diablo-D3 | hicham probably got fed up with the bullshit | Jan 15 18:22 |
| Omar87 | Diablo-D3: maybe | Jan 15 18:34 |
| -BNi/#boycottnovell-[diablod3/@diablod3] Multipath game trailer via #Youtube awesomery http://ur1.ca/jwt3 | Jan 15 18:36 | |
| phIRCe-local | Title: YouTube- Just Cause 2 Multi-path Trailer .::. Size~: 120 KB | Jan 15 18:36 |
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| zoobab_ | j | Jan 15 18:55 |
| -BNc/#boycottnovell-[omar_s_hafez] #Backtrack-4 [codename: Pwnsauce] Installing now! xD | Jan 15 19:06 | |
| -BNc/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] #Patents Roundup: #Commission Sells Out to Microsoft; #Apple and RIM Sued by #Kodak http://ur1.ca/jwwy | Jan 15 19:14 | |
| phIRCe-local | Title: Patents Roundup: Commission Sells Out to Microsoft; Apple and RIM Sued by Gates-backed Kodak | Boycott Novell .::. Size~: 98.43 KB | Jan 15 19:14 |
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| Murloc | Hello People | Jan 15 19:35 |
| Murloc | Hey Roy | Jan 15 19:35 |
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| Chips_B_Malroy | Hello everyone | Jan 15 19:55 |
| -BNc/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] #Novell is Rapidly Losing #GroupWise Business http://boycottnovell.com/2010/01/15/novell-loses-mail-contracts/ | Jan 15 19:56 | |
| phIRCe-local | Title: Novell is Rapidly Losing GroupWise Business | Boycott Novell .::. Size~: 99.67 KB | Jan 15 19:56 |
| Chips_B_Malroy | US retail sales see surprise fall http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/business/8459452.stm | Jan 15 19:56 |
| phIRCe-local | Title: BBC NEWS | News Front Page .::. Size~: 75.23 KB | Jan 15 19:56 |
| Chips_B_Malroy | a bad Xmas season for retailers here | Jan 15 19:57 |
| Chips_B_Malroy | "Sales of electrical goods and cars saw some of the biggest falls" | Jan 15 19:57 |
| Chips_B_Malroy | The could spell bad news for MS as well, and be a signal for more layoffs to come | Jan 15 19:58 |
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| amd-linux | http://www.dw-world.de/dw/article/0,,5132998,00.html | Jan 15 20:04 |
| phIRCe-local | Title: German web security office warns of "critical" flaws in Internet Explorer | Science & Technology | Deutsche Welle | 15.01.2010 .::. Size~: 30.69 KB | Jan 15 20:04 |
| amd-linux | this was just on both main German public TV channels in the main news | Jan 15 20:04 |
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| Chips_B_Malroy | and yet there's Intel http://mashable.com/2010/01/14/intel-earnings-2009/ | Jan 15 20:10 |
| phIRCe-local | Title: Tech Boom: Intel's Earnings Up an Astounding 875% .::. Size~: 77.23 KB | Jan 15 20:10 |
| Murloc | I've released new version of ZeuAPP recently. The project made to get open source at desktop with 1 click. | Jan 15 20:15 |
| Murloc | Im also looking to go with python with Linux version. | Jan 15 20:15 |
| -BNc/#boycottnovell-[thistleweb] N-Dubz star Dappy 'sorry' over text message threats - What kinda plonker calls himself Dappy? ROFL http://tinyurl.com/yjjcpvb | Jan 15 20:29 | |
| phIRCe-local | Title: BBC News - N-Dubz star Dappy 'sorry' over text message threats .::. Size~: 47 KB | Jan 15 20:29 |
| -BNc/#boycottnovell-[thistleweb] Microsoft admits Explorer used in Google China hack - Solution? "Buy Windows 7, it's secure, honest" lol http://tinyurl.com/ycdamsx | Jan 15 20:32 | |
| phIRCe-local | Title: BBC News - Microsoft admits Explorer used in Google China hack .::. Size~: 48.85 KB | Jan 15 20:32 |
| trmanco | https://lists.ubuntu.com/archives/ubuntu-news-team/2010-January/000838.html | Jan 15 20:36 |
| -BNc/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] #Microsoft Flaws — Not #Adobe Flaws — Responsible for #China ’s Attack on #Google http://ur1.ca/jx7g | Jan 15 20:38 | |
| phIRCe-local | Title: Microsoft Flaws Not Adobe Flaws Responsible for Chinas Attack on Google; Microsoft Takes Chinas Side, as Usual | Boycott Novell .::. Size~: 98.29 KB | Jan 15 20:38 |
| -BNc/#boycottnovell-[thistleweb] Bill Gates thought to be a famous thief, so they do recognise him then, despite the PR. LMAO http://tinyurl.com/yft25ld | Jan 15 20:39 | |
| phIRCe-local | Title: BBC News - Steve Jobs and Sir Tim Berners-Lee baffle the Brits .::. Size~: 43.99 KB | Jan 15 20:39 |
| -BNc/#boycottnovell-[thistleweb] Peter Robinson talks of pain caused by wife's affair | The coordinated PR sympathy campaign begins http://tinyurl.com/yb4bdc2 | Jan 15 20:44 | |
| phIRCe-local | Title: Peter Robinson talks of pain caused by wife's affair |Politics |guardian.co.uk .::. Size~: 77.45 KB | Jan 15 20:44 |
| schestowitz |  | Jan 15 20:46 |
| schestowitz | [18:22] <Diablo-D3> hicham probably got fed up with the bullshit | Jan 15 20:46 |
| schestowitz | No, he made an unacceptable remark about Novell's de Icaza and got told off for it | Jan 15 20:46 |
| schestowitz | Hey, Murloc | Jan 15 20:46 |
| schestowitz | [19:58] <Chips_B_Malroy> The could spell bad news for MS as well, and be a signal for more layoffs to come | Jan 15 20:47 |
| schestowitz | Chips_B_Malroy: maybe | Jan 15 20:47 |
| schestowitz | No clues yet | Jan 15 20:47 |
| schestowitz | Chips_B_Malroy: why link to BS stories about Intel | Jan 15 20:48 |
| schestowitz | Their profit fell 90%!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!1 | Jan 15 20:48 |
| schestowitz | Then, the following year they could resort it to old level and claim, "WOW!!!!!!!1 Up 900%!!!" | Jan 15 20:48 |
| schestowitz | /resort/restore/ | Jan 15 20:48 |
| -BNc/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] @thistleweb some thought correctly. He *is* a thief | Jan 15 20:51 | |
| trmanco | Microsoft and it's monkeys are very competent -> http://blogs.perl.org/users/cpan_testers/2010/01/msnbot-must-die.html | Jan 15 20:52 |
| phIRCe-local | Title: CPAN Testers at blog.perls.org: MSNBOT must die! .::. Size~: 17.81 KB | Jan 15 20:52 |
| schestowitz | trmanco: shouldn't they rename it | Jan 15 20:54 |
| schestowitz | Bingot? | Jan 15 20:54 |
| trmanco | Bingbutt? | Jan 15 20:54 |
| schestowitz | Livebot? | Jan 15 20:54 |
| schestowitz | They don't keep up with the changing brands | Jan 15 20:54 |
| schestowitz | Kumo.. | Jan 15 20:54 |
| trmanco | KumB0t | Jan 15 20:54 |
| MinceR | cumbot? | Jan 15 20:55 |
| trmanco | no | Jan 15 20:55 |
| trmanco | kumbot | Jan 15 20:55 |
| trmanco | from kumo | Jan 15 20:55 |
| trmanco | :> | Jan 15 20:55 |
| schestowitz | MinceR: sounds like something from a sex shop | Jan 15 20:58 |
| schestowitz | Microsoft Dillo | Jan 15 20:58 |
| schestowitz | http://www.theregister.co.uk/2010/01/15/bill_veghte_leaves_microsoft/ | Jan 15 20:59 |
| phIRCe-local | Title: Windows and Office veteran ejects from Microsoft • The Register .::. Size~: 28.57 KB | Jan 15 20:59 |
| schestowitz | http://bizpunk.blogspot.com/2010/01/after-bell-today-ea-announced-massive.html | Jan 15 20:59 |
| phIRCe-local | Title: bizpunk: EA's Miss .::. Size~: 119.37 KB | Jan 15 20:59 |
| schestowitz | A-DOS tells us that the gaming industry is flourishing | Jan 15 20:59 |
| schestowitz | According to "studies" he can't name | Jan 15 20:59 |
| schestowitz | But it's all down | Jan 15 20:59 |
| schestowitz | http://www.theregister.co.uk/2010/01/15/ibm_parliament/ | Jan 15 21:00 |
| phIRCe-local | Title: MPs slam IBM pension moves • The Register .::. Size~: 27.64 KB | Jan 15 21:00 |
| Murloc | Still im thinking what to use for Linux transition. | Jan 15 21:01 |
| Murloc | Python seems like a good option. | Jan 15 21:01 |
| schestowitz | Nokia still clings on to the Klingon, Symbian http://www.reghardware.co.uk/2010/01/15/nokia_next_gen_ui/ | Jan 15 21:03 |
| phIRCe-local | Title: Nokia posts proposal for next year's smartphone UI • Register Hardware .::. Size~: 23.4 KB | Jan 15 21:03 |
| MinceR | Dillo is non-m$ :> | Jan 15 21:04 |
| Murloc | Anyway Microsoft has strong loby in schools | Jan 15 21:04 |
| Murloc | lobby* | Jan 15 21:04 |
| Murloc | They started making desperate moves, so that school would stay their clients. OpenOffice is far better alternative to be used in school as learning tool. | Jan 15 21:05 |
| Chips_B_Malroy | the reason for the Intel link was to see if it had in fact to it, and as you stated, it was BS. it was more of a question than anything else | Jan 15 21:05 |
| -BNc/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] Booze fail. http://www.blogicalthoughts.com/images/signs/1110_signs.jpg | Jan 15 21:06 | |
| phIRCe-local | Title: Not a web page! Aborting image/jpeg type .::. Size~: 0 KB | Jan 15 21:06 |
| schestowitz | http://arstechnica.com/open-source/news/2010/01/linux-foundation-linux-job-market-has-grown-80-percent.ars | Jan 15 21:06 |
| phIRCe-local | Title: Linux Foundation: Linux job market has grown 80 percent .::. Size~: 33.8 KB | Jan 15 21:06 |
| schestowitz | Murloc: Gates too | Jan 15 21:06 |
| schestowitz | Microsoft has NGOs acting as satellites | Jan 15 21:06 |
| schestowitz | I showed these in BN, using dozens of news articles (External links) | Jan 15 21:07 |
| schestowitz | They have former Softies creating foundations and NGOs | Jan 15 21:07 |
| trmanco | Murloc: that is what happens here | Jan 15 21:07 |
| schestowitz | MinceR: Microsoft could buy a Dillo | Jan 15 21:07 |
| schestowitz | Like it bought 'IE' | Jan 15 21:07 |
| schestowitz | Bastardised the origins | Jan 15 21:07 |
| schestowitz | I couldn't copy Netscape 'from scratch;' | Jan 15 21:07 |
| schestowitz | trmanco: no kickbacks, no OpenOffice :-) | Jan 15 21:08 |
| schestowitz | Socrates likes $$ | Jan 15 21:08 |
| schestowitz | http://www.computerworlduk.com/community/blogs/index.cfm?entryid=2730 | Jan 15 21:08 |
| phIRCe-local | Title: The future is wide open - Community - ComputerworldUK .::. Size~: 73.08 KB | Jan 15 21:08 |
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| schestowitz | Tell Portugal to prepare students for Facebook, Google, etc. | Jan 15 21:09 |
| schestowitz | These companies don't give a blip if you can open a new Word document and manoeuvre your way very quickly through Mister Clippy | Jan 15 21:10 |
| schestowitz | trmanco: you can make a real difference by working with ANSOL et al | Jan 15 21:10 |
| trmanco | windows junk licenses usually costs 1€ per computer (not counting office suite)... but it's still a waste of money, specially in poor schools... and they even put restrictions on computers as if they own them :/ | Jan 15 21:10 |
| Murloc | Clippy-the most annoying thing ever made. | Jan 15 21:11 |
| schestowitz | The tide is changing and change seems inevitable. See what Omar87 and JUST do in Jordan | Jan 15 21:12 |
| schestowitz | I doubt the Mafioso will be given a talk in Hungary any time soon after getting eggs tossed at him | Jan 15 21:12 |
| ThistleWeb | I was gonna say that I wonder why the porn industry hasn't got it's play on it with Miss Clitty, but then "micro" and "soft" are only "before" marketing words lol | Jan 15 21:13 |
| schestowitz | trmanco: but it's good for taxpayers... :-) Microsoft Portugal is a Portuguese company | Jan 15 21:13 |
| schestowitz | All those multinationals have their alter egos | Jan 15 21:13 |
| schestowitz | Pretending they are locals | Jan 15 21:13 |
| schestowitz | And it it's in Poland, they blow off black faces | Jan 15 21:13 |
| schestowitz | trmanco: wow. 1€? For the "free sample" drug dealer that's quite expensive | Jan 15 21:14 |
| schestowitz | The "Samples" are classically gratis | Jan 15 21:14 |
| schestowitz | Miss Clitty is just a micro- and soft man genitalia | Jan 15 21:15 |
| trmanco | microsoft a portuguese company... yeah | Jan 15 21:15 |
| schestowitz | ThistleWeb: it says a lot about Microsoft and Clippy | Jan 15 21:16 |
| schestowitz | trmanco: Microsoft(C) Portugal(C) | Jan 15 21:16 |
| schestowitz | Microsoft Deutschland... | Jan 15 21:16 |
| trmanco | like as if giving away our money to them is going to put this country out of the global crisis... riight... | Jan 15 21:16 |
| schestowitz | Microsoft UK... | Jan 15 21:16 |
| schestowitz | It's 'YOUR' company | Jan 15 21:16 |
| schestowitz | You need to love it | Jan 15 21:16 |
| trmanco | they even put a hot chick as the general manager or something here in portugal | Jan 15 21:16 |
| schestowitz | It gives you jobs and makes pretty adverts for you | Jan 15 21:16 |
| ThistleWeb | I thought that ages ago, a company that's all about macho image using 2 words meaning "tiny" and "flacid" ain't exactly loud and proud male attributes | Jan 15 21:17 |
| trmanco | they haven't gave me anything | Jan 15 21:17 |
| schestowitz | It's interested in helping you, trmanco | Jan 15 21:17 |
| schestowitz | http://www.amazon.com/Only-Super-Rich-Can-Save-Us/dp/1583229035 | Jan 15 21:17 |
| phIRCe-local | Title: Amazon.com: "Only the Super-Rich Can Save Us!" (9781583229033): Ralph Nader: Books .::. Size~: 391.41 KB | Jan 15 21:17 |
| trmanco | but bad codding apps and practices, like visual basic and there mfc half real standard c++ language | Jan 15 21:17 |
| schestowitz | ThistleWeb: they get softer | Jan 15 21:18 |
| schestowitz | It was never about microchips | Jan 15 21:18 |
| schestowitz | They move from software to patents now | Jan 15 21:18 |
| schestowitz | They started with licensing but now they found patenting profitable too | Jan 15 21:18 |
| schestowitz | It's like Monsanto moving from chemical to biological -experiments on humans- modifications | Jan 15 21:19 |
| ThistleWeb | schestowitz: did you see the channel 4 Netal post today? | Jan 15 21:19 |
| schestowitz | Or Haliburton entering the business of war, food, weapon, murder... | Jan 15 21:19 |
| schestowitz | ThistleWeb: no | Jan 15 21:19 |
| schestowitz | http://www.thevarguy.com/2010/01/14/canonical-ibm-ubuntu-will-counter-windows-7-at-lotusphere/ | Jan 15 21:20 |
| phIRCe-local | Title: Canonical, IBM: Ubuntu Counters Windows 7 At Lotusphere | The VAR Guy .::. Size~: 56.8 KB | Jan 15 21:20 |
| ThistleWeb | "hitting stores by Christmas"....which was either written a few months ago and missed, and posted late, or is 12 months away | Jan 15 21:20 |
| ThistleWeb | aim - hang on to your 360, the future is coming in 12 months | Jan 15 21:20 |
| schestowitz | http://azerthoth.blogspot.com/2010/01/watching-tv-and-linux.html | Jan 15 21:20 |
| phIRCe-local | Title: Azerblog: Watching TV and Linux .::. Size~: 85.8 KB | Jan 15 21:20 |
| ThistleWeb | http://www.channel4.com/news/articles/science_technology/xbox+moves+towards+aposaction+computingapos/3501137 | Jan 15 21:21 |
| phIRCe-local | Title: X-Box moves towards 'action computing' - Channel 4 News .::. Size~: 29.86 KB | Jan 15 21:21 |
| ThistleWeb | ^^ that story | Jan 15 21:21 |
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| ThistleWeb | when I read the "hitting stores for Christmas" I checked the date on the article to see if it was an old one, but it's not | Jan 15 21:21 |
| trmanco | http://www.reallylinux.com/docs/avataruseslinux.shtml | Jan 15 21:21 |
| schestowitz | http://www.groklaw.net/article.php?story=2010011422570951 | Jan 15 21:21 |
| phIRCe-local | Title: Avatar Movie Made Possible With Linux - www.reallylinux.com .::. Size~: 12.33 KB | Jan 15 21:21 |
| schestowitz | "Just put your work in your plain text comment here. There are around 3,000 documents, and we're more than half done, so if you want to share in the project, it's now or never. And with that, I'm back to work." | Jan 15 21:21 |
| phIRCe-local | Title: Groklaw - The Microsoft-Linux Story As Told in the Comes Exhibits .::. Size~: 83.38 KB | Jan 15 21:21 |
| schestowitz | Oh wait | Jan 15 21:21 |
| schestowitz | I thought we had about 9000 | Jan 15 21:22 |
| schestowitz | ThistleWeb: it's an advert | Jan 15 21:22 |
| schestowitz | ThistleWeb: yes, I know... it's a year away | Jan 15 21:22 |
| schestowitz | They said in CES | Jan 15 21:22 |
| schestowitz | Nintendo has had that for ages | Jan 15 21:22 |
| ThistleWeb | I did like the survey that 5% of people thought Bill Gates was a famous theif, or a comedian | Jan 15 21:23 |
| ThistleWeb | that made me literally LOL | Jan 15 21:24 |
| MinceR | only 5% got it right? :> | Jan 15 21:24 |
| ThistleWeb | that's what I thought, despite all the efforts to paint him as a saint, 5% still got him right | Jan 15 21:24 |
| ThistleWeb | I think that was a "regular Joe" survey, not a techy peeps survey, otherwise they'd know him and Jobs | Jan 15 21:25 |
| schestowitz | Groklaw is saving us lots of work now with more volunteers that extract the texts | Jan 15 21:26 |
| schestowitz | But Groklaw is repeating stuff that was in BN ages ago | Jan 15 21:26 |
| schestowitz | Bringing it to wider audiences | Jan 15 21:26 |
| schestowitz | :-) | Jan 15 21:26 |
| schestowitz | ThistleWeb: so he doesn't spend enough money yet on PR | Jan 15 21:27 |
| schestowitz | Maybe he should hire assassin to eliminate those who call him "thief" | Jan 15 21:27 |
| schestowitz | Or.. | Jan 15 21:27 |
| schestowitz | Maybe he should give them Monsanto seeds... cancer will take care of the rest :-) | Jan 15 21:27 |
| MinceR | lol | Jan 15 21:28 |
| schestowitz | That lady we showed sued Monsanto in India | Jan 15 21:28 |
| schestowitz | She should also sue criminals who back them financially | Jan 15 21:28 |
| ThistleWeb | on one hand I like when MS have to buy more and more PR, or give away stuff they'd prefer to charge for as it saps their money quicker....on the other hand it creates more addicts and makes it an easier sell to govts as "too big to fail" when appealing for tax payers bailout | Jan 15 21:28 |
| schestowitz | http://blogs.laweekly.com/ladaily/city-news/law-firm-cyber-attack/ | Jan 15 21:29 |
| phIRCe-local | Title: L.A. Law Firm Reports Cyber Attack From China - Los Angeles News - LA Daily .::. Size~: 46.26 KB | Jan 15 21:29 |
| schestowitz | IE>.. | Jan 15 21:29 |
| ThistleWeb | ideally, they'd be forced to be honest with customers, since they have no intention of doing that on their own volition | Jan 15 21:29 |
| schestowitz | ThistleWeb: they also use PR for bailouts\ | Jan 15 21:29 |
| schestowitz | Buying the hearts of politicians and sheeple | Jan 15 21:29 |
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| schestowitz | http://www.eweek.com/c/a/Security/IETF-Completes-Fix-for-SSL-Security-Vulnerability-589986/ | Jan 15 21:34 |
| phIRCe-local | Title: IETF Completes Fix for SSL Security Vulnerability - Security from eWeek .::. Size~: 111.82 KB | Jan 15 21:34 |
| schestowitz | I hop Groklaw manages to find somehting we haven't found in Comes | Jan 15 21:35 |
| schestowitz | I care a lot less about GO and other proprietary s/w companies | Jan 15 21:35 |
| schestowitz | I think we have already extracted all the "Linux" stuff with the help of 10 eyeballs (at least) | Jan 15 21:35 |
| schestowitz | It's a shame that this stuff is not in the 'mainstream' press like NYT | Jan 15 21:35 |
| schestowitz | MinceR will love this: http://www.theinquirer.net/inquirer/news/1587332/apple-cracks-valleywag | Jan 15 21:38 |
| phIRCe-local | Title: Apple cracks down on valleywag - The Inquirer .::. Size~: 64.14 KB | Jan 15 21:38 |
| MinceR | the hype machine is at full power | Jan 15 21:43 |
| schestowitz | tessier__: is it possible to make varnish treat pages with hashes (like "#comment-78212") be treated as separate unique pages that get cached separately or not get cached? | Jan 15 21:48 |
| schestowitz | MinceR: that like saying Apple is at full power | Jan 15 21:49 |
| MinceR | part of the hype machine is outside crApple | Jan 15 21:50 |
| schestowitz | Edelman? | Jan 15 21:52 |
| schestowitz | Here's a task | Jan 15 21:52 |
| MinceR | the fanboy army | Jan 15 21:52 |
| schestowitz | Find out who Apple contracts for PR | Jan 15 21:52 |
| schestowitz | I don't know companies/names | Jan 15 21:52 |
| schestowitz | The "army" is led by "Evangelists" like Kawasaki | Jan 15 21:52 |
| MinceR | they probably have multiple PR contacts | Jan 15 21:52 |
| MinceR | and every time they choose 1 | Jan 15 21:52 |
| schestowitz | !google guy kawasaki shill | Jan 15 21:52 |
| phIRCe-local | [1] - Traffick: The Business of Search: Is Guy Kawasaki Singlehandedly ... | http://www.traffick.com/2009/05/is-guy-kawasaki-singlehandedly-ruining.asp | Jan 15 21:52 |
| phIRCe-local | [2] - So, who should fill Schmidt's shoes on the Apple board - MAC.BLORGE | http://mac.blorge.com/2009/08/04/so-who-should-fill-schmidts-shoes-on-the-apple-board/ | Jan 15 21:52 |
| phIRCe-local | [3] - Ishmael's Corner » Oprah: Heartfelt Storyteller or Paid Shill? | http://www.ishmaelscorner.com/2008/10/27/oprah-heartfelt-storyteller-or-paid-shill/ | Jan 15 21:52 |
| phIRCe-local | [4] - Steve Ballmer: MIX08 Conversation with Guy Kawasaki | http://www.microsoft.com/presspass/exec/steve/2008/03-06MIX08.mspx | Jan 15 21:52 |
| schestowitz | http://moveyourmoney.info/find-a-bank | Jan 15 21:55 |
| phIRCe-local | Title: Move Your Money » Find A Bank Or Credit Union .::. Size~: 10.28 KB | Jan 15 21:55 |
| schestowitz | http://www.stallman.org/archives/2009-nov-feb.html#11%20January%202010%20%28African%20workers%20rioted%20against%20the%20local%20mafia%29 | Jan 15 21:57 |
| schestowitz | "African workers in mafia-controlled Italian farms rioted against the local mafia, after some of them were shot for no specific reason. The police arrested all the immigrants, but not all of the mafia. " | Jan 15 21:57 |
| rnb_ | rms++ | Jan 15 21:58 |
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| schestowitz | http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2010/jan/12/iran-scientist-assassination-allegation-west | Jan 15 22:07 |
| phIRCe-local | Title: Allegations fly over Iranian scientist's assassination |World news |The Guardian .::. Size~: 77.59 KB | Jan 15 22:07 |
| schestowitz | http://blog.nixternal.com/2010.01.14/ubuntu-chicago-files-chapter-13/ | Jan 15 22:23 |
| phIRCe-local | Title: Ubuntu Chicago Files Chapter 13 :: Richard A. Johnson .::. Size~: 27.46 KB | Jan 15 22:23 |
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| rnb | hola todos | Jan 15 22:53 |
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| schestowitz | http://www.techflash.com/seattle/2010/01/wii_sales_soar_in_december_ps3_edges_out_xbox_360.html | Jan 15 23:04 |
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| schestowitz | http://www.itworld.com/security/92714/update-your-adobe-software-now | Jan 15 23:13 |
| schestowitz | Okular made Reader redundant. I don't use it | Jan 15 23:13 |
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| MinceR | Okular got sluggish so i switched to Evince | Jan 15 23:20 |
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| schestowitz | http://www.reghardware.co.uk/2010/01/15/lg_ebook_reader/ | Jan 15 23:25 |
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| schestowitz | test freenode | Jan 15 23:31 |
| MinceR | since it isn't foldable, its flexibility is only a drawback | Jan 15 23:32 |
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| schestowitz | http://www.webpronews.com/topnews/2010/01/04/google-ditches-local-listings-for-seos-and-designers | Jan 15 23:51 |
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| schestowitz | http://www.theregister.co.uk/2010/01/15/haiti_pictures/ | Jan 15 23:52 |
| schestowitz | freenode is messy | Jan 15 23:52 |
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| _goblin | good evening all | Jan 15 23:55 |
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