| oiaohm | NAT is running into issues of not enough ports. | Feb 09 00:05 |
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| oiaohm | The NAT problem is not going to just disappear because ipv6 gets put in. | Feb 09 00:06 |
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| FurnaceBoy | cubezzz: it's not practical to 'replace' much of the existing ipv4 infra | Feb 09 00:06 |
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| FurnaceBoy | cubezzz: so they'll run in parallel | Feb 09 00:06 |
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| FurnaceBoy | cubezzz: eventually :) | Feb 09 00:06 |
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| oiaohm | 65000+ ports should have been enough. But hey. | Feb 09 00:06 |
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| FurnaceBoy | oiaohm: 2 x RS-232 should be enough! | Feb 09 00:07 |
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| -BNtwitter/#boycottnovell-[davidgerard] NewsTechnica: Facebook pressured to change from old style to old old style http://is.gd/7Ympn | Feb 09 00:07 |
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| oiaohm | For webservers we don't need that many IP's. | Feb 09 00:07 |
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| FurnaceBoy | right. | Feb 09 00:07 |
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| FurnaceBoy | consolidation ftw | Feb 09 00:07 |
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| FurnaceBoy | haha, did y\'all see that NZ school article? | Feb 09 00:08 |
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| FurnaceBoy | the microsoft solution spec'd 48 servers. they went open source and needed only four. | Feb 09 00:08 |
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| oiaohm | Yet items like ftp and so on are designed to operate depending on IP. | Feb 09 00:08 |
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| oiaohm | Basically if more protocals were like http and less like ftp. Ie supports port stacking we would have less IP problems. | Feb 09 00:09 |
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| oiaohm | Ie port stacking and ip stacking. | Feb 09 00:09 |
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| oiaohm | Big issue no one likes answer is how to you NAT a IPV6 | Feb 09 00:10 |
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| oiaohm | Without running into the same port issue NAT on IPV4 is suffering form. | Feb 09 00:11 |
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| cubezzz | sounds like more billable hours for someone :) | Feb 09 00:11 |
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| -BNtwitter/#boycottnovell-[davidgerard] NewsTechnica slightly broken because I hacked the theme one hack too far. VERSION CONTROL, DO I SPEAK IT. A*se. | Feb 09 00:13 |
| oiaohm | Really if we did not have port and direct ip issues there is no real reason we would need ipv6. | Feb 09 00:13 |
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| oiaohm | Instead we would just stack NAT's and be done with it. | Feb 09 00:14 |
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| *shreddar has quit (Quit: Page closed) | Feb 09 00:14 |
| oiaohm | Of course stacking nats would stuff up p2p traffic o well. | Feb 09 00:15 |
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| cubezzz | internet in North America seems rather slow | Feb 09 00:23 |
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| cubezzz | actually rogers seems faster than bell dsl | Feb 09 00:24 |
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| cubezzz | usually | Feb 09 00:24 |
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| _goblin | Lets see if Bill Gates responds to my tweet..... | Feb 09 00:25 |
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| _goblin | he said: | Feb 09 00:25 |
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| _goblin | I applaud President Obama calling Uganda's proposed anti-gay law “odious.” http://bit.ly/9F3Phl | Feb 09 00:25 |
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| _goblin | so I responded: | Feb 09 00:25 |
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| _goblin | So then you would support the action taken by a gay employee against Microsoft? http://tinyurl.com/cmwbva #microsoft #windows | Feb 09 00:25 |
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| FurnaceBoy | cubezzz: slow compared to what? | Feb 09 00:26 |
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| FurnaceBoy | _goblin: good stuff | Feb 09 00:26 |
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| cubezzz | Europe | Feb 09 00:26 |
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| _goblin | I hate hypocracy.....or I would if I could spell it. | Feb 09 00:27 |
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| FurnaceBoy | cubezzz: latency or bandwidth? | Feb 09 00:27 |
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| FurnaceBoy | _goblin: hypocrisy* and boy does he have it in spades | Feb 09 00:27 |
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| _goblin | thanks! | Feb 09 00:28 |
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| cubezzz | FurnaceBoy, it seems they are getting much faster file transfers than we do in Canada | Feb 09 00:28 |
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| cubezzz | for example in Sweden... | Feb 09 00:28 |
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| FurnaceBoy | cubezzz: well, this can be measured. | Feb 09 00:29 |
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| cubezzz | I max out at about 550k per sec | Feb 09 00:29 |
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| FurnaceBoy | there are so many factors. | Feb 09 00:29 |
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| _goblin | my max is around 370k per sec | Feb 09 00:30 |
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| FurnaceBoy | cubezzz: since i rent colo in TO, i can probably tell you exactly what this Bell residential ADSL can bear :) | Feb 09 00:30 |
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| FurnaceBoy | cubezzz: it's around that, or a little more | Feb 09 00:30 |
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| cubezzz | yeah | Feb 09 00:30 |
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| FurnaceBoy | cubezzz: but i haven't measured it to my colo, life's too short for benchmarks :) | Feb 09 00:31 |
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| cubezzz | so that is 5mbps? | Feb 09 00:31 |
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| FurnaceBoy | i think it's 10 ... but they don't seem to offer this service any more | Feb 09 00:31 |
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| FurnaceBoy | 10 on paper, i mean. | Feb 09 00:31 |
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| FurnaceBoy | not based on measurement. | Feb 09 00:31 |
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| FurnaceBoy | i have no idea what i can push through it | Feb 09 00:31 |
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| FurnaceBoy | pull* | Feb 09 00:32 |
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| cubezzz | I originally signed up for 3.0 Mb Residental ADSL service | Feb 09 00:32 |
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| FurnaceBoy | it's very reliable, though, which matters more to me | Feb 09 00:32 |
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| FurnaceBoy | yeah, i signed up for 1.5Mbit in 2001. | Feb 09 00:32 |
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| cubezzz | then was told it was beefed up to 5.0 MB | Feb 09 00:32 |
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| FurnaceBoy | i think these speeds are basically marketing | Feb 09 00:33 |
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| FurnaceBoy | adsl varies by distance anyway | Feb 09 00:33 |
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| cubezzz | it seems a bit faster than it did originally | Feb 09 00:34 |
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| cubezzz | yeah, I'm a fair ways away from the co | Feb 09 00:34 |
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| FurnaceBoy | mine only gets dodgy when there's a lot of rain. | Feb 09 00:34 |
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| FurnaceBoy | i'm in an older building | Feb 09 00:34 |
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| FurnaceBoy | i think somewhere water affects the phone | Feb 09 00:35 |
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| cubezzz | stupid dlink won't let me communicate with the adsl modem | Feb 09 00:36 |
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| _goblin | mentioning my bandwidth was the kiss of death for my connection.....damn O2 playing up again. | Feb 09 00:37 |
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| -BNtwitter/#boycottnovell-[_the_mad_hatter] @_Goblin Never heard of Luton Town FC, but I'm a life long Toronto Maple Leaf supporter, and if that doesn't prove insanity... | Feb 09 00:43 |
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| -BNtwitter/#boycottnovell-[_goblin] @_the_mad_hatter lol. http://www.lutontown.co.uk - I'll make you a supporter yet..... | Feb 09 00:45 |
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| -BNtwitter/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] #LTSP Comes in New and Improved Web Site http://stgraber.org/2010/01/28/new-ltsp-cluster-websites-officially-out | Feb 09 00:52 |
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| -BNtwitter/#boycottnovell-[davidgerard] climate change "skeptics" are as aggressively ignorant as creationists, and rate similar regard. http://www.newscientist.com/article/dn11462 | Feb 09 00:54 |
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| -BNtwitter/#boycottnovell-[_goblin] Looking for someone to design an Openbytes logo/banner....full credit will be given....anyone? | Feb 09 00:55 |
| -BNtwitter/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] How #GNU #Linux Already Thrives in Businesses http://www.daniweb.com/news/story258647.html | Feb 09 00:56 |
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| -BNtwitter/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] #Linux 2.6.33 Just a Couple of Steps from Final Release http://lkml.org/lkml/2010/2/6/106 | Feb 09 00:58 |
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| _goblin | Has Jono Bacon commented here today? | Feb 09 01:00 |
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| jono | _goblin, nope | Feb 09 01:00 |
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| _goblin | lol. | Feb 09 01:00 |
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| -BNtwitter/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] #ATI and #Nvidia Compete for #Linux Love http://ur1.ca/luls http://ur1.ca/lult http://ur1.ca/lulu | Feb 09 01:00 |
| jono | :) | Feb 09 01:00 |
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| _goblin | So whats the score with OpenOffice and UNR? | Feb 09 01:00 |
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| _goblin | IF it was removed, what would it be replaced with? | Feb 09 01:00 |
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| jono | _goblin, we don't know yet | Feb 09 01:01 |
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| _goblin | isn't this a little last minute....10.04LTS I thought was going to be a turning point/landmark release for Canonical, shouldn't these issues have been resolved a long time ago? | Feb 09 01:02 |
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| MinceR | the online version of m$ office, of course | Feb 09 01:02 |
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| MinceR | with a yahoo logo on top, to distract the unwary | Feb 09 01:02 |
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| jono | _goblin, afaik UNR is not an LTS | Feb 09 01:02 |
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| jono | MinceR, you rumbled us | Feb 09 01:03 |
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| jono | that is obviously our logical next step | Feb 09 01:03 |
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| jono | :-) | Feb 09 01:03 |
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| -BNtwitter/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] Cross-Platform Applications in [P]Review: #Brewtarget and #Stellarium http://ur1.ca/lum0 http://ur1.ca/lum1 | Feb 09 01:03 |
| MinceR | :> | Feb 09 01:03 |
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| _goblin | ok....but theres the gimp issue that also is not decided. | Feb 09 01:03 |
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| _goblin | its another question that really should have been answered a long time ago. | Feb 09 01:03 |
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| jono | _goblin, I have confidence that the mobile team know what they are doing | Feb 09 01:03 |
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| _goblin | im sure... | Feb 09 01:03 |
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| _goblin | it would be nice though if Lucid, was really Lucid to everyone else. | Feb 09 01:04 |
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| -BNtwitter/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] A Look at #KDE 4.3 System Settings and New Lancelot Feature http://ur1.ca/lum4 http://ur1.ca/lum5 | Feb 09 01:04 |
| -BNtwitter/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] #KDE 4.4 Out Tomorrow!!! | Feb 09 01:04 |
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| jono | _goblin, it will be Lucid | Feb 09 01:04 |
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| _goblin | its certainly not at the moment. | Feb 09 01:04 |
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| jono | but the UNR version varies as it is a netbook version | Feb 09 01:04 |
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| jono | _goblin, how so? | Feb 09 01:04 |
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| _goblin | as in: | Feb 09 01:05 |
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| _goblin | “easily understood; completely intelligible or comprehensible:a lucid explanation.” | Feb 09 01:05 |
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| _goblin | no answer on Gimp | Feb 09 01:05 |
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| _goblin | no answer on OO | Feb 09 01:05 |
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| _goblin | a rather bizarre survey into proprietary app inclusion.... | Feb 09 01:05 |
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| jono | lol | Feb 09 01:05 |
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| jono | right | Feb 09 01:05 |
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| _goblin | and a deal with the good ship Yahoo, bound for Microsoft. | Feb 09 01:05 |
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| jono | well, don't use it | Feb 09 01:05 |
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| _goblin | eh? | Feb 09 01:06 |
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| jono | there are plenty of alternatives :) | Feb 09 01:06 |
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| MinceR | is that the official recommendation from canonical then? :> | Feb 09 01:06 |
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| _goblin | Im asking for clarification not casting a damnation. | Feb 09 01:06 |
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| jono | it sounds lie you have made your mind up | Feb 09 01:06 |
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| _goblin | really? | Feb 09 01:06 |
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| MinceR | "Ubuntu(r) 9.04 -- Don't Use It.(tm)" :> | Feb 09 01:06 |
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| MinceR | oops | Feb 09 01:06 |
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| _goblin | how can I do that when questions are not being answered? | Feb 09 01:06 |
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| MinceR | s/9/10/ | Feb 09 01:06 |
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| jono | _goblin, no you are not, you are are casting damnation and expecting me to pull out dignity from the ashes | Feb 09 01:06 |
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| _goblin | really? how so? | Feb 09 01:06 |
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| _goblin | is Ubuntu not going with Yahoo? | Feb 09 01:07 |
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| _goblin | has Canonical actually made a decision on Gimp? | Feb 09 01:07 |
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| _goblin | or OO? | Feb 09 01:07 |
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| -BNtwitter/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] New Features in #GNOME Desktop 3 http://www.omgubuntu.co.uk/2010/02/few-new-features-in-gnome-shell.html | Feb 09 01:07 |
| jono | <_goblin> So whats the score with OpenOffice and UNR? | Feb 09 01:07 |
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| jono | IF it was removed, what would it be replaced with? | Feb 09 01:07 |
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| jono | <jono> _goblin, we don't know yet | Feb 09 01:07 |
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| jono | want me to just make something up? | Feb 09 01:07 |
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| *MinceR is still waiting to see how this all turns out | Feb 09 01:07 |
| jono | and I have discussed the gimp decision here already | Feb 09 01:07 |
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| _goblin | no...not at all thats why I said "it is not Lucid" at the present time. | Feb 09 01:07 |
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| MinceR | i don't think you should make stuff up, we'll see it when it has been decided. | Feb 09 01:07 |
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| _goblin | even to you Jono. | Feb 09 01:07 |
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| jono | _goblin, it is Lucid to me, but yes, we don't have all decision made yet | Feb 09 01:08 |
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| jono | and that has always been the case with Ubuntu | Feb 09 01:08 |
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| jono | with every release | Feb 09 01:08 |
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| _goblin | “easily understood; completely intelligible or comprehensible:a lucid explanation.” | Feb 09 01:08 |
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| _goblin | really? | Feb 09 01:08 |
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| jono | we often make decisions late in the cyucle | Feb 09 01:08 |
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| jono | yes | Feb 09 01:08 |
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| jono | and every distro is the same | Feb 09 01:08 |
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| _goblin | every distro is not an LTS | Feb 09 01:08 |
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| jono | _goblin, why do we have to know now? feature freeze is not here yet | Feb 09 01:08 |
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| jono | take a look at https://wiki.ubuntu.com/LucidReleaseSchedule | Feb 09 01:09 |
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| phIRCe-BNc | Title: LucidReleaseSchedule - Ubuntu Wiki .::. Size~: 21.3 KB | Feb 09 01:09 |
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| -BNtwitter/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] TuxRadar Primer to #Fedora #GNU #Linux 12 http://www.tuxradar.com/content/newbies-guide-fedora-12 | Feb 09 01:09 |
| jono | ten days before feature freeze | Feb 09 01:09 |
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| phIRCe-BNc | Title: A newbie's guide to Fedora 12 | TuxRadar Linux .::. Size~: 47.84 KB | Feb 09 01:09 |
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| jono | and even post FF we often make last minute decisions | Feb 09 01:09 |
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| _goblin | and correct me if Im wrong the Yahoo deal and Ubuntu One revenue stream is not the same as every version.....is it? Youve changed your business model (and no problem with that) yet you still make last minute decisions? | Feb 09 01:09 |
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| oiaohm_ | http://ostatic.com/blog/oracle-cuts-affect-gnome-accessibility-work Ouch | Feb 09 01:09 |
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| phIRCe-BNc | Title: Oracle Cuts Affect GNOME Accessibility Work .::. Size~: 36.79 KB | Feb 09 01:09 |
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| jono | _goblin, I dont understand the question | Feb 09 01:09 |
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| _goblin | well the ubuntu of today is vastly different to that of yesteryear. | Feb 09 01:10 |
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| _goblin | your business model is changing.... | Feb 09 01:10 |
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| _goblin | so the comment of "every distro is the same"...is inaccurate | Feb 09 01:10 |
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| jono | _goblin, every distro is the same in that we put things in at the last minute | Feb 09 01:11 |
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| jono | which was the context of our discussion | Feb 09 01:11 |
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| _goblin | just to be clear..... | Feb 09 01:11 |
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| jono | the business model has also not really changed | Feb 09 01:11 |
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| jono | but yes additional services have come into play | Feb 09 01:11 |
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| _goblin | so last minute decisions are what Canonical see's as offering a viable desktop environment to Windows? | Feb 09 01:11 |
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| jono | but we have 300+ families to feed who work on free software | Feb 09 01:11 |
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| jono | _goblin, are you aware of how a distro is put together? | Feb 09 01:12 |
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| jono | it seems we have a disconnect | Feb 09 01:12 |
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| _goblin | and the business model has changed....unless Im wrong and Ubuntu One has been around since day one. | Feb 09 01:12 |
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| _goblin | Jono: Please don't patronize me.... | Feb 09 01:12 |
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| _goblin | Jono: You fully understand the point I am making about gimp | Feb 09 01:12 |
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| jono | _goblin, I am not, I am asking a question - do you understand how it works? | Feb 09 01:12 |
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| jono | because it seems you expect us to have all decisions made before feature freeze | Feb 09 01:12 |
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| _goblin | Jono: this is not a case of which version is packaged...this is a major decision about leaving out (or including) a package which is mainstay of many Linux distro. | Feb 09 01:13 |
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| jono | _goblin, indeed, but that all happens before FF | Feb 09 01:13 |
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| jono | let me give you an example | Feb 09 01:13 |
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| oiaohm_ | We do expect clear reporting on what features are going to be in and what features are not going to be in. jono | Feb 09 01:13 |
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| _goblin | thats what I was trying put across. | Feb 09 01:13 |
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| oiaohm_ | Even before feature freese on the Linux kernel we know if X or Y features are going to be in there and what z features are still up in air. Due to good reporting jono | Feb 09 01:14 |
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| jono | in Karmic we didnt make the final decision about shipping Empathy until the very last minute, we really wanted to ship Empathy as it is good for the project and GNOME, but there were stability issues, so we waited until as late as possible to make the best decision | Feb 09 01:14 |
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| jono | that kind of thing happens a lot in Ubuntu | Feb 09 01:14 |
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| _goblin | and if enterprise was to consider an Ubuntu deployment would it not make sense for Canonical to let people know so an informed and planned decision could be made about deployment. | Feb 09 01:14 |
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| jono | oiaohm_, see plans at https://blueprints.edge.launchpad.net/ubuntu/ | Feb 09 01:15 |
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| jono | that outlines all blueprints and you can see which ones are planned for Lucid | Feb 09 01:15 |
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| oiaohm_ | Note I said reporting. | Feb 09 01:15 |
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| jono | _goblin, I really genuinely don't wish to be patronizing, and I apologize if you felt I was earlier, but I think it could be useful for you to familiarise yourself with the development process in the different distros | Feb 09 01:16 |
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| jono | they all basically work the same | Feb 09 01:16 |
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| oiaohm_ | jono: Ubuntu need to work on there media side big time. | Feb 09 01:16 |
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| jono | oiaohm_, maybe you could help with this? | Feb 09 01:17 |
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| jono | we are always keen to see community contributions | Feb 09 01:17 |
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| oiaohm_ | Really it not something I can change. Its part how the site is layed out. | Feb 09 01:18 |
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| jono | oiaohm_, why not? we have plenty of opportunity for that - just join the docs team | Feb 09 01:18 |
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| oiaohm_ | Me write docs. | Feb 09 01:19 |
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| oiaohm_ | Are you mad. | Feb 09 01:19 |
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| jono | ? | Feb 09 01:19 |
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| oiaohm_ | I have dyslexia and very bad grammar. | Feb 09 01:19 |
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| _goblin | Jono: I have no interest in the development process of Ubuntu or any distro and the suggestion that "it could be useful" to me is both insulting and patronizing. The question (and point) was rather simple, for a decision as big as removing Gimp and its replacement, it is very late in the day for Canonical to still be considering their options....the same goes for OO in the UNR..10.04 is a landmark release and possibly a turning | Feb 09 01:19 |
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| _goblin | point for Canonical.... | Feb 09 01:19 |
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| oiaohm_ | I am 100 percent not a doc writer. | Feb 09 01:19 |
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| jono | odd, you seem to do well here | Feb 09 01:19 |
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| oiaohm_ | Stay here long enough. | Feb 09 01:19 |
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| oiaohm_ | Some days I do well other days I do bad. | Feb 09 01:20 |
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| -BNtwitter/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] #Ubuntu #GNU #Linux Still Discussing UNE Applications http://ur1.ca/lrr7 9.10 Working Well http://ur1.ca/lomn | Feb 09 01:20 |
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| oiaohm_ | http://kde.org/announcements/ Good point to look at is how KDE does there annoncements of what is coming. jono | Feb 09 01:20 |
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| phIRCe-BNc | Title: KDE - KDE Announcements .::. Size~: 41.85 KB | Feb 09 01:20 |
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| oiaohm_ | Then find me Ubuntu equal done well. Note that is on the KDE front page for a reason. | Feb 09 01:21 |
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| jono | _goblin, right, so you have no interest in understanding why we have the development process that we have, that was forged from years of experienced software professionals putting it together, in the interests of having an informed debate - if you are not interested in understanding another persons perspective and instead just want to rely on misinformation and your own assumptions, feel free to have that discussion with someone else, because I am n | Feb 09 01:21 |
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| jono | ot going to have it | Feb 09 01:21 |
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| jono | I am always keen to talk to those with opposing and challenging viewpoints, but not those unwilling to explore others viewpoints too | Feb 09 01:21 |
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| -BNtwitter/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] #Nokia 's Linux Phones Get Pole-Dancing Robots http://ur1.ca/lun4 http://ur1.ca/lun7 | Feb 09 01:22 |
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| phIRCe-BNc | Title: Nokia N900 review LetsGoMobile .::. Size~: 49.99 KB | Feb 09 01:22 |
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| _goblin | Jono: Not in the context of the debate about Gimp - No. Read the blogs of the testers of the alpha's who are still confused as to why Gimp appears....Please don't put words into my mouth....You know exactly the point I am making and trying your best to answer it with company line comments. | Feb 09 01:22 |
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| oiaohm_ | At the alpha release point KDE is already creating descriptions of upcoming changes. jono. This means people understand what is going on. | Feb 09 01:23 |
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| *Ender2070 (~Ender2070@bas1-toronto12-1128684719.dsl.bell.ca) has joined #boycottnovell | Feb 09 01:23 |
| Ender2070 | 1f u c4n r34d th1s u r34lly n33d t0 g37 l41d | Feb 09 01:23 |
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| jono | _goblin, ok | Feb 09 01:23 |
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| jono | enjoy | Feb 09 01:23 |
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| oiaohm_ | Biggest issue is Ubuntu is leaving to to blogs and other spreed out times. So people don't have a big picture point. jono | Feb 09 01:23 |
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| -BNtwitter/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] #Android / #Linux Best Hits, New Bargain http://ur1.ca/lun9 http://ur1.ca/luna http://ur1.ca/lunb | Feb 09 01:24 |
| phIRCe-BNc | Title: Google/HTCs Nexus One is only $49 (in a manner of speaking) - Gadget News, Analyzed - Gadgetopolis .::. Size~: 86.31 KB | Feb 09 01:24 |
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| _goblin | jono: Ok...since that didn't go anywhere (I could have got that answer from your twitter) how about you give us YOUR opinion on if Gimp should remain? | Feb 09 01:24 |
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| Ender2070 | lol “I think Microsoft named .Net so it wouldn’t show up in a Unix directory listing.” | Feb 09 01:24 |
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| -BNtwitter/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] #GNU #Linux Tablets with Free Software or Google Own Stack http://ur1.ca/lune http://ur1.ca/lunf | Feb 09 01:25 |
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| yuhong | http://news.slashdot.org/comments.pl?sid=1542124&cid=31067514 | Feb 09 01:26 |
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| phIRCe-BNc | Title: Slashdot Comments | Study Says OOXML Unsuitable For Norwegian Government .::. Size~: 43.87 KB | Feb 09 01:26 |
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| yuhong | About problems with the abbreviation OOXML. | Feb 09 01:26 |
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| _goblin | jono: YOUR opinion on Gimp going or staying? (second time asking) | Feb 09 01:26 |
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| jono | _goblin, I am not being drawn into a discussion with someone who is unwilling to explore viewpoints other than their own - learn to open your mind a little and I will tell you all the viewpoints I have in the world | Feb 09 01:26 |
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| _goblin | eh? | Feb 09 01:27 |
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| oiaohm_ | The problem I think with Ubuntu is the same problem gnome has jono. Lack of paid resources working on it. | Feb 09 01:27 |
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| _goblin | I am asking if you think Gimp should stay or go....I think it should stay.... | Feb 09 01:27 |
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| *yuhong has quit (Client Quit) | Feb 09 01:28 |
| oiaohm_ | Really the gimp at the end of this year will address most of the problems people have complained about gimp for. | Feb 09 01:28 |
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| jono | ok | Feb 09 01:28 |
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| -BNtwitter/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] #Interview with #PCBSD Guy Reveals Relationship with #FreeBSD http://distrowatch.com/weekly.php?issue=20100208#feature #bsd | Feb 09 01:28 |
| phIRCe-BNc | Title: DistroWatch.com: Put the fun back into computing. Use Linux, BSD. .::. Size~: 87.78 KB | Feb 09 01:28 |
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| jono | let me explain my view | Feb 09 01:28 |
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| jono | and then I am done with this conversation | Feb 09 01:28 |
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| _goblin | and I am "opening my mind" - attempt to cheapen no2.....since I am asking for your opinion....not guessing or putting words into your mouth (like you did to me) | Feb 09 01:28 |
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| jono | this is *my* view | Feb 09 01:28 |
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| _goblin | ok | Feb 09 01:28 |
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| jono | ok, you accuse me of putting words in your mouth? | Feb 09 01:28 |
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| jono | I am done here | Feb 09 01:29 |
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| _goblin | so no opinion? | Feb 09 01:29 |
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| jono | _goblin, what does it matter? | Feb 09 01:29 |
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| jono | what does it matter what *I* think? | Feb 09 01:29 |
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| jono | you have made up your mind | Feb 09 01:29 |
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| _goblin | about what? | Feb 09 01:29 |
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| oiaohm_ | You have just stated how a lot of people using ubuntu fell. | Feb 09 01:30 |
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| jono | you wont even learn how we put the distro together | Feb 09 01:30 |
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| jono | you wont even learn the process before questioning it | Feb 09 01:30 |
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| oiaohm_ | jono: | Feb 09 01:30 |
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| _goblin | please quote me where I have made up my mind about anything here? | Feb 09 01:30 |
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| -BNtwitter/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] Libraries and #Literature Set Free with Libre Software, Books http://ur1.ca/lunv http://ur1.ca/lunw | Feb 09 01:30 |
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| jono | _goblin, the whole conversation | Feb 09 01:30 |
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| oiaohm_ | Jono a lot of people fell the development of Ubuntu is having nothing to do with what they want. | Feb 09 01:30 |
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| oiaohm_ | If that is not addressed. Ubuntu will have long term problems. jono | Feb 09 01:30 |
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| jono | you clearly dont know how ubuntu is put together, and if you learned how we put it together and then disagreed then fine | Feb 09 01:30 |
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| jono | I am not opposing opposing views, I am opposing ignorance paraded as opposing views | Feb 09 01:31 |
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| jono | which is why I suggested you soak up how we make the distro and then we debate it | Feb 09 01:31 |
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| _goblin | jono: and theres your example....Im not interested in the dev process of any distro because we are talking about a Major decision, the inclusion or not of Gimp...I put it out there that a decision such as this should not be left so late...you say otherwise..fine. | Feb 09 01:31 |
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| oiaohm_ | How is not only point that is important. jono | Feb 09 01:31 |
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| jono | _goblin, why dont we have a chat on the phone to discuss this | Feb 09 01:31 |
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| oiaohm_ | KDE learnt a big leason with KDE 4.0 | Feb 09 01:31 |
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| jono | I am happy to call you | Feb 09 01:31 |
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| jono | can you msg me your number | Feb 09 01:32 |
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| _goblin | jono: you say you don't know about Gimp answer....thats fine too......Im after having YOUR opinion on if YOU think Gimp should be included. | Feb 09 01:32 |
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| oiaohm_ | jono: If you don't have clear understanding between end users and people making the selections everything will explode in face. | Feb 09 01:32 |
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| jono | lets get on the phone and I will give you my view in full | Feb 09 01:32 |
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| _goblin | jono: You may not be aware but I prefer to stay anon..... | Feb 09 01:33 |
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| _goblin | jono: thats not a reflection on you, its because of my non-IT related job. | Feb 09 01:33 |
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| oiaohm_ | Not like I am anno. Since I am the only person i know who uses this handle. jono | Feb 09 01:33 |
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| _goblin | jono: its why there are certain topics in BN that I can't comment on..... | Feb 09 01:33 |
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| jono | I dont see why we can discuss it in one call | Feb 09 01:34 |
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| oiaohm_ | The selection to go paint.net over gimp did not seam to most people very well talked about. Not to end users. It seamed to be a selection by packages. | Feb 09 01:34 |
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| jono | it is as simple as this: | Feb 09 01:34 |
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| jono | this is my view | Feb 09 01:34 |
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| _goblin | ok.. | Feb 09 01:34 |
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| jono | and what I find infuriating is that my here *are* my views | Feb 09 01:34 |
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| oiaohm_ | Now my issue is commuination. jono | Feb 09 01:35 |
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| jono | I made it very clear three and a half years ago that *I dont spin lines* | Feb 09 01:35 |
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| jono | I am here to be a healthy middleground for the community and canonical | Feb 09 01:35 |
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| jono | so, this is my view: | Feb 09 01:35 |
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| jono | the gimp is awesome | Feb 09 01:35 |
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| oiaohm_ | Ubuntu is growing the same problem they called debian for when they split off. jono | Feb 09 01:35 |
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| jono | we all love it | Feb 09 01:35 |
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| jono | its a great tool and a valuable tool on the disc | Feb 09 01:35 |
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| _goblin | never said you did...but we all have to represent our companies/organizations in a professional way that does not go against company line. | Feb 09 01:35 |
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| jono | but in our commitment to shipping one CD, we have limited space | Feb 09 01:36 |
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| _goblin | thats fair enough. | Feb 09 01:36 |
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| jono | so we performed an evaluation of what users need | Feb 09 01:36 |
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| jono | and what people use ubuntu for | Feb 09 01:36 |
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| jono | we came to the conclusion that Ubuntu would be a more valuable distro if it had a kick-ass video editor in it | Feb 09 01:36 |
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| oiaohm_ | Yet that evaluation does not seam to include end users. Or at least end users don't understand what you are basing it on | Feb 09 01:36 |
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| jono | it would mean that people could be creative in a different way with ubuntu | Feb 09 01:36 |
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| _goblin | ok...thats fine.... | Feb 09 01:37 |
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| jono | and that the gimp was only ever a click away in the software center | Feb 09 01:37 |
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| jono | this is my view too | Feb 09 01:37 |
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| _goblin | agreed. | Feb 09 01:37 |
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| jono | I think that we need to get ubuntu ready for video | Feb 09 01:37 |
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| jono | we need to face the integration niggles and details of making pitivi rock | Feb 09 01:37 |
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| jono | in karmic we took a leap for empathy | Feb 09 01:37 |
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| oiaohm_ | Big problem I have here. For video I use blender. | Feb 09 01:37 |
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| jono | because we wanted to put it on stage and give it exposure to help it develop | Feb 09 01:37 |
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| jono | now we want to do the same for pitivi | Feb 09 01:37 |
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| jono | there is no conspiracy | Feb 09 01:37 |
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| oiaohm_ | You are aware that blender and gimp join? jono | Feb 09 01:38 |
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| jono | there are no lies | Feb 09 01:38 |
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| _goblin | never said there was. | Feb 09 01:38 |
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| jono | it is a simple decision around what our users want | Feb 09 01:38 |
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| jono | but the problem is that people in here dont ask that | Feb 09 01:38 |
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| _goblin | ? | Feb 09 01:38 |
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| oiaohm_ | But you did not show how you choose what users want. jono | Feb 09 01:38 |
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| oiaohm_ | That is your biggest problem jono | Feb 09 01:38 |
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| _goblin | Ive been asking for what you just said for the last 1/2 hour.... | Feb 09 01:38 |
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| jono | people just assume through backbiting that we are screwing them | Feb 09 01:38 |
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| oiaohm_ | Its not just how something is done. jono | Feb 09 01:38 |
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| _goblin | who? | Feb 09 01:38 |
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| jono | _goblin, you were asking through a thick veil of incinuation | Feb 09 01:39 |
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| oiaohm_ | Its that people can see that the process is transparent and fair. jono | Feb 09 01:39 |
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| _goblin | jono: I resent that. | Feb 09 01:39 |
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| _goblin | jono: It is incorrect | Feb 09 01:39 |
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| jono | _goblin, well, I resent being told I put words in your mouth so we are at 1-1 | Feb 09 01:39 |
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| _goblin | jono: would you like me to link my recent articles where I praise canonical? | Feb 09 01:39 |
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| oiaohm_ | How was the software selected. jono | Feb 09 01:39 |
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| jono | _goblin, I hang out here not because I want to get spat at but because I want to understand the views of the project | Feb 09 01:39 |
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| jono | I *want* to hear opposing viewpoints | Feb 09 01:39 |
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| oiaohm_ | Vote of maintainers or some other true gathering of usage data. jono | Feb 09 01:40 |
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| jono | I want to hear when people dont like what we do because I feel it shapes me better as a community manager | Feb 09 01:40 |
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| jono | and I feel like I have tried to learn and participate | Feb 09 01:40 |
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| _goblin | jono: and the putting words into my mouth was in reference to you suggesting that I was not interested in Distro dev....my comment was merely in the context of the gimp question which you have answered. | Feb 09 01:40 |
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| oiaohm_ | Now true usage data just publish it and people like _goblin will accept it. | Feb 09 01:40 |
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| jono | and listen to people | Feb 09 01:40 |
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| oiaohm_ | You know the problem with just listern to people. | Feb 09 01:40 |
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| jono | but it would be nice if people here would be keen to listen to | Feb 09 01:40 |
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| _goblin | jono: Never said otherwise. | Feb 09 01:40 |
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| jono | and to hear why we do things and understand them fully and then debate if needed | Feb 09 01:41 |
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| oiaohm_ | The smallest sections of a population are louder. jono | Feb 09 01:41 |
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| jono | now, I am done | Feb 09 01:41 |
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| jono | I am going to go and do email | Feb 09 01:41 |
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| oiaohm_ | jono: the problem is solve able. | Feb 09 01:41 |
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| _goblin | bye! | Feb 09 01:41 |
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| Ender2070 | jono, kubuntu +1 | Feb 09 01:41 |
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| oiaohm_ | If the slection not to go gimp is based on some data just publish the data. problem gone. jono | Feb 09 01:41 |
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| jono | I am not expecting everyone to agree with me, and I am not expecting everyone to agree with Ubuntu, but I am expecting that we can all have an informed debate | Feb 09 01:41 |
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| jono | and I will continue to hang out here and to try and understand | Feb 09 01:41 |
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| jono | and I hope it helps us all understand | Feb 09 01:42 |
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| oiaohm_ | Now if it just maintainer selection without data backing it up. There will be problems. jono | Feb 09 01:42 |
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| jono | ok folks, later | Feb 09 01:42 |
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| _goblin | good of him to engage in that.... | Feb 09 01:42 |
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| _goblin | however..... | Feb 09 01:42 |
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| oiaohm_ | I guess you problem is the same as me. | Feb 09 01:42 |
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| oiaohm_ | _goblin: | Feb 09 01:42 |
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| _goblin | ? | Feb 09 01:42 |
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| oiaohm_ | Ie lack of transpancy. | Feb 09 01:42 |
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| _goblin | ah.... | Feb 09 01:42 |
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| -BNtwitter/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] Many Companies Collaborate on Free/Libre Rendering Engine http://bit.ly/adMSVX | Feb 09 01:43 |
| oiaohm_ | If they have valid data ie that users are not using gimp but using X so that is why they are removing gimp from disk. | Feb 09 01:43 |
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| phIRCe-BNc | Title: WebKit still receiving contributions from Nokia, Apple, Google and Rim .::. Size~: 15.45 KB | Feb 09 01:43 |
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| _goblin | Im convinced its going now.... | Feb 09 01:43 |
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| oiaohm_ | We would not be able to argue right. | Feb 09 01:43 |
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| _goblin | Gimp that is. | Feb 09 01:43 |
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| oiaohm_ | My problem I fear lot of Ubuntu software selections are happening for what maintainers want. Not users. | Feb 09 01:44 |
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| _goblin | Ive got £100 for the charity of anyone's choice here if Gimp is present in 10.04. | Feb 09 01:44 |
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| -BNtwitter/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] #Sun 's Hosting to Stay, Moving to Another Area http://ur1.ca/luog | Feb 09 01:45 |
| phIRCe-BNc | Title: Confusion over Sun's Kenai hosting platform - The H Open Source: News and Features .::. Size~: 31.38 KB | Feb 09 01:45 |
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| _goblin | What Jono couldn't seem to understand is that the removal of Gimp would be a long term decision....or at least a 6 month one....I can appreciate about disk space, but does that mean that Mono will never be in future Ubuntu's? Wheres the killer app for that which everyone is wanting, and if thats not the case is Canonical going to refuse Mono in future releases? | Feb 09 01:47 |
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| -BNtwitter/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] Free/Libre #VoIP Software Trailblazers/Leaders Named http://www.crn.com/networking/222600454;jsessionid=0W2XZSUMRTMMFQE1GHRSKHWATMY32JVN | Feb 09 01:47 |
| -BNtwitter/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] #UCLA Genetics Team Releases #FreeSoftware http://ur1.ca/luon | Feb 09 01:47 |
| phIRCe-BNc | Title: 15 Open-Source PBX/VoIP Products To Know .::. Size~: 31.72 KB | Feb 09 01:47 |
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| phIRCe-BNc | Title: UCLA Team Sequences Cell Line, Puts Open Source Software Framework into Production | BioInform | Informatics | GenomeWeb .::. Size~: 31.92 KB | Feb 09 01:47 |
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| -BNtwitter/#boycottnovell-[qu1j0t3] "Wealth" guru Ray "can't afford bond". So, sit in jail like anyone else! http://www.prescottenews.com/?option=com_content&task=view&id=3062 | Feb 09 01:49 |
| -BNtwitter/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] Free/Libre Software Released by Paradigm Works http://www.design-reuse.com/news/22649/open-source-software-vmm-verification.html | Feb 09 01:49 |
| phIRCe-BNc | Title: Paradigm Works Releases Free Open Source Software for VMM-based Verification .::. Size~: 56.6 KB | Feb 09 01:49 |
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| _goblin | I also resent the "spat at" comment....nobody here was doing that....infact most users here have had praise at some point for the Ubuntu desktop......I even stood up to be counted when it was rumoured Ubuntu may carry proprietary closed source apps.....I agreed with Ubuntu One on Windows......nobody here (and certainly not me) was spitting at Jono. | Feb 09 01:49 |
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| -BNtwitter/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] List of Free/Libre Office Suites to Replace OOXML Trap http://ur1.ca/luou http://ur1.ca/luov #odf | Feb 09 01:50 |
| phIRCe-BNc | Title: 5 open source office suites to watch - Feng Office, free office software, KOffice, openoffice - CIO .::. Size~: 105.46 KB | Feb 09 01:50 |
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| phIRCe-BNc | Title: OpenOffice.org Extensions to Try : New Linux User - Linux Tips Information for Using Linux .::. Size~: 50.54 KB | Feb 09 01:50 |
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| jono | _goblin, if you resent a comment from me, I would love you to sit in my shoes for a few says in here | Feb 09 01:51 |
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| -BNtwitter/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] #FreeSoftware Cheer Stories from #Australia http://ur1.ca/luoy http://ur1.ca/luoz http://ur1.ca/lun7 | Feb 09 01:51 |
| phIRCe-BNc | Title: ur1 Generator .::. Size~: 2.26 KB | Feb 09 01:51 |
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| phIRCe-BNc | Title: Nokia N900 review LetsGoMobile .::. Size~: 49.98 KB | Feb 09 01:51 |
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| oiaohm_ | Big thing jono and those miss is mono applications take less disk space but end more unfreeable ram. So make livecd's less functional. | Feb 09 01:52 |
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| -BNtwitter/#boycottnovell-[_goblin] I will go on record.After the discussion I have had I'm convinced Gimp will NOT be present in 10.04,I stand to be corrected/embarrased later | Feb 09 01:52 |
| -BNtwitter/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] #FreeSoftware Goes More International http://ur1.ca/lup2 http://ur1.ca/lsq7 http://ur1.ca/lup3 | Feb 09 01:53 |
| phIRCe-BNc | Title: ur1 Generator .::. Size~: 2.26 KB | Feb 09 01:53 |
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| phIRCe-BNc | Title: SourceForge turns off "blanket blocking" - The H Open Source: News and Features .::. Size~: 31.07 KB | Feb 09 01:53 |
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| oiaohm_ | Simple point jono have you noticed that Ubuntu live cd are needing more and more ram to get stuff done. | Feb 09 01:53 |
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| -BNtwitter/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] #Mozilla #Thunderbird 3 is Reviewed, 3.1 in Alpha http://ur1.ca/lup8 http://ur1.ca/lup9 | Feb 09 01:56 |
| phIRCe-BNc | Title: Mozilla Thunderbird 3 review from TechRadar UK's expert reviews of Other software .::. Size~: 59 KB | Feb 09 01:56 |
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| phIRCe-BNc | Title: Mozilla releases Thunderbird 3.1 Alpha 1 - The H Open Source: News and Features .::. Size~: 32.49 KB | Feb 09 01:57 |
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| _goblin | jono: That may be the case, but I have not discredited you, infact after your interview with Roy (if you care to look at my blog) was far from damning of it. | Feb 09 01:57 |
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| _goblin | jono: I have repeatedly supported Ubuntu. The problem for me comes (like oiaohm says) in relation to transparency...hence my "Lucid" comment. | Feb 09 01:58 |
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| jono | _goblin, I think if you spend some time looking at how we put together Ubuntu you would find it reassuring | Feb 09 01:59 |
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| _goblin | jono: and if memory serves, the removal of Gimp was hardly what people wanted according to a poll on Ubuntus own forums. | Feb 09 01:59 |
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| jono | but I am not going to deny that we make decisions that you dont approve of | Feb 09 01:59 |
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| jono | _goblin, we dont make decisions based on forums polls | Feb 09 01:59 |
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| jono | we make decisions on what we feel is best for our users | Feb 09 01:59 |
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| jono | and if you dont like that there is no gimp, just install it from software center | Feb 09 02:00 |
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| jono | it is really no big deal | Feb 09 02:00 |
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| _goblin | jono: but thats the point....the end user IS the most important person...you loose support of them what have you got? | Feb 09 02:00 |
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| jono | _goblin, ubuntu is not a democracy | Feb 09 02:00 |
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| jono | it never has been | Feb 09 02:00 |
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| _goblin | jono: " on what we feel is best for our users" where do we see that ethos? | Feb 09 02:00 |
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| jono | _goblin, throughout the competent development team that builds ubuntu | Feb 09 02:01 |
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| jono | I have confidence in our dev team | Feb 09 02:01 |
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| jono | and we discussed it openly at UDS | Feb 09 02:01 |
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| jono | and it is not like we are banning GIMP from ubuntu | Feb 09 02:01 |
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| jono | we still package it in main | Feb 09 02:01 |
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| _goblin | Jono: "ubuntu is not a democracy" Im sorry I was under the impression it was community minded development that aimed (unlike other firms) to provide a desktop that users wanted. | Feb 09 02:01 |
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| jono | it still gets security updates | Feb 09 02:01 |
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| jono | it is just not on the disk | Feb 09 02:01 |
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| jono | _goblin, it is, but it is not a democracy | Feb 09 02:01 |
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| jono | and it never will be | Feb 09 02:01 |
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| _goblin | jono: so your userbase has no say? | Feb 09 02:01 |
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| jono | because democracy doesnt make great software | Feb 09 02:02 |
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| jono | I never said that | Feb 09 02:02 |
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| jono | but I trust our developers more than a poll on the forums | Feb 09 02:02 |
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| jono | ubuntu is a meritocracy | Feb 09 02:02 |
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| _goblin | ah | Feb 09 02:02 |
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| _goblin | but in the end you do "what we feel is best for our users" | Feb 09 02:02 |
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| _goblin | just to confirm. | Feb 09 02:02 |
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| jono | yes, based upon our meritocratic users | Feb 09 02:02 |
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| jono | oops | Feb 09 02:03 |
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| _goblin | thank you. | Feb 09 02:03 |
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| jono | meritocratic devs | Feb 09 02:03 |
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| Ender2070 | sounds like communism | Feb 09 02:03 |
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| -BNtwitter/#boycottnovell-[davidgerard] @_Goblin they've already declared Gimp won't be in 10.04, haven't they? @mpt? | Feb 09 02:03 |
| jono | we have a development team who have become a dev team because of their excellent work and we trust their judgement to make decisions on behalf of our user base | Feb 09 02:03 |
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| _goblin | thats fine. | Feb 09 02:04 |
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| -BNtwitter/#boycottnovell-[_goblin] @davidgerard Not according to Jono Bacon. | Feb 09 02:04 |
| -BNtwitter/#boycottnovell-[_goblin] @davidgerard Unless you know something I havent read. | Feb 09 02:04 |
| _goblin | if you are wondering what that tweet was, it was in relation to Gimp.....Mr Gerard seems to think its already been decided. | Feb 09 02:04 |
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| _goblin | maybe Ive missed the official word....Ive been very busy with work for the week. | Feb 09 02:05 |
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| jono | it was decided at UDS | Feb 09 02:06 |
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| _goblin | jono: Ok. I accept (and respect) your stance on Gimp. Should Gimp be removed, what would be YOUR alternative for it (or indeed what alternatives are being considered currently) | Feb 09 02:06 |
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| jono | but there is certainly the possibility the decision may be changed if PiTiVi is not right for Lucid | Feb 09 02:06 |
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| jono | _goblin, you mean an alternative for image editing? | Feb 09 02:07 |
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| _goblin | yes. | Feb 09 02:07 |
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| jono | I think the current proposal of building some limited image editing features into F-spot or EOG makes sense | Feb 09 02:07 |
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| jono | most people just want to flip images, remove red eye and resize | Feb 09 02:07 |
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| _goblin | fair enough - thanks for answering. | Feb 09 02:07 |
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| jono | no worries | Feb 09 02:07 |
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| _goblin | but then those features can be solved (for my requirements) in web based apps anyway.... | Feb 09 02:08 |
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| Ender2070 | how useful is a video editor on a livecd | Feb 09 02:08 |
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| jono | _goblin, very possibly | Feb 09 02:08 |
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| _goblin | I couldn't answer, I have no need for vid editing live cd or not. | Feb 09 02:08 |
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| schestowitz | [01:59] <jono> _goblin, we dont make decisions based on forums polls | Feb 09 02:08 |
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| schestowitz | [01:59] <jono> we make decisions on what we feel is best for our users | Feb 09 02:08 |
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| schestowitz | Huh? | Feb 09 02:08 |
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| jono | schestowitz decisions about ubuntu features and where we target engineering resources is not based on forums polls | Feb 09 02:09 |
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| cubezzz | installs shouldn't be too fat | Feb 09 02:09 |
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| _goblin | so then whats the point of a poll? | Feb 09 02:09 |
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| schestowitz | jono: ah, OK | Feb 09 02:09 |
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| jono | it is based on what the meritocratic development community thinks will meet the needs of most users | Feb 09 02:09 |
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| cubezzz | there's a lot of stuff on my old fc1 that I don't use | Feb 09 02:09 |
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| schestowitz | But it was a contradiction | Feb 09 02:09 |
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| jono | _goblin, the devs dont set up the polls :) | Feb 09 02:09 |
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| schestowitz | BTW, I am not against you or Ubuntu | Feb 09 02:10 |
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| jono | schestowitz I know, pal :) | Feb 09 02:10 |
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| schestowitz | I am _with_ you | Feb 09 02:10 |
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| jono | and we respect your support schestowitz :) | Feb 09 02:10 |
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| schestowitz | I'm just trying to help myself and other see the dangers being faced | Feb 09 02:10 |
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| jono | it is an exciting time to for Ubuntu | Feb 09 02:10 |
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| cubezzz | awwww, group hug :) | Feb 09 02:10 |
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| jono | the future is looking awesome | Feb 09 02:10 |
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| _goblin | Im not with anyone or anything.....I'd just after a debate.... | Feb 09 02:10 |
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| jono | the new desktop work is exciting | Feb 09 02:10 |
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| schestowitz | I want all distros to succeed | Feb 09 02:10 |
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| jono | schestowitz agreed | Feb 09 02:10 |
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| jono | we are all on the same team | Feb 09 02:10 |
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| jono | :) | Feb 09 02:10 |
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| Ender2070 | I think kubuntu 9.10 is a huge improvement over its previous effort | Feb 09 02:11 |
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| schestowitz | SLED is closed source pretty much... and Microsoft's patent puppy | Feb 09 02:11 |
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| schestowitz | Ender2070: I'm using it now | Feb 09 02:12 |
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| schestowitz | It's great | Feb 09 02:12 |
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| *FurnaceBoy (~FurnaceBo@BAS1-TORONTO10-1279748207.dsl.bell.ca) has joined #boycottnovell | Feb 09 02:12 |
| schestowitz | top - 02:12:31 up 83 days, 23:43, 2 users, load average: 0.02, 0.05, 0.16 | Feb 09 02:12 |
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| Ender2070 | I was testing it out, i like it too | Feb 09 02:13 |
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| _goblin | jono: who set the proprietary question poll? | Feb 09 02:13 |
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| jono | no idea | Feb 09 02:13 |
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| _goblin | jono: I don't either....I'll have to look for it... | Feb 09 02:13 |
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| jono | ok, I am gonna go and work out | Feb 09 02:14 |
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| jono | bia | Feb 09 02:14 |
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| jono | biab | Feb 09 02:14 |
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| jono | take care, all | Feb 09 02:14 |
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| _goblin | strange: | Feb 09 02:14 |
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| _goblin | We are trying to gather preferences for the apps that users would like to see in upcoming version of Ubuntu. While we all believe in the power of open source applications we are also very keen that users should get to choose the software they want to use. There are some great apps that aren't yet available to Ubuntu users and Canonical would like to know the priority that users would like to see them. This list is indicative not | Feb 09 02:14 |
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| _goblin | definitive and we would love to also read your suggestions in the free text box. | Feb 09 02:14 |
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| _goblin | so it appears Canonical wanted to know. | Feb 09 02:14 |
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| _goblin | mm | Feb 09 02:15 |
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| _goblin | but it doesn't matter anyway because decisions will be made "on what we feel is best for our users" | Feb 09 02:15 |
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| _goblin | now where have we heard that before. | Feb 09 02:15 |
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| _goblin | hypocrisy. | Feb 09 02:16 |
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| oiaohm_ | Yep MS Novel..... How far back should I stop? | Feb 09 02:16 |
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| oiaohm_ | Its basically a list of companies that have made OS's that are either crap or are dead. | Feb 09 02:17 |
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| -BNtwitter/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] #Rails 3 Gets Merb http://www.linuxworld.com/news/2010/020510-rails-30-beta-features-merger.html?fsrc=rss-linux-news #ror | Feb 09 02:18 |
| phIRCe-BNc | Title: Rails 3.0 beta features merger with Merb framework - LinuxWorld .::. Size~: 37.65 KB | Feb 09 02:18 |
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| _goblin | What I can't understand is this "team" that Im supposed to be part of when if Im a Ubuntu user my voice doesn't count. | Feb 09 02:18 |
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| -BNtwitter/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] #Mozilla 's #Ogg Advocacy Pays Off http://www.poynter.org/column.asp?id=31&aid=177296 | Feb 09 02:19 |
| phIRCe-BNc | Title: Poynter Online - E-Media Tidbits .::. Size~: 60.05 KB | Feb 09 02:19 |
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| schestowitz | oiaohm_: re Sun and accessibility: http://www.gnome.org/press/releases/2010-02-mozilla-accessibility.html | Feb 09 02:19 |
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| phIRCe-BNc | Title: Mozilla Sponsors GNOME Accessibility Efforts .::. Size~: 7.23 KB | Feb 09 02:19 |
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| schestowitz | [02:15] <_goblin> but it doesn't matter anyway because decisions will be made "on what we feel is best for our users" | Feb 09 02:20 |
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| oiaohm_ | That is lower than sun past funding schestowitz | Feb 09 02:20 |
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| schestowitz | Some leaders (notorious ones) said it about their citizens | Feb 09 02:20 |
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| schestowitz | It's a way of asserting control | Feb 09 02:20 |
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| _goblin | schestowitz: and we are still none the wiser about Gimp "but there is certainly the possibility the decision may be changed if PiTiVi is not right for Lucid" | Feb 09 02:20 |
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| schestowitz | Like I say, "I work in the spirit of the constitution, so I needn't pass it via congress" | Feb 09 02:21 |
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| schestowitz | Like Bush and Cheney did recently | Feb 09 02:21 |
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| _goblin | schestowitz: So they are taking it out, but then again they might not. | Feb 09 02:21 |
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| _goblin | schestowitz: Thats cleared that one up then..... | Feb 09 02:21 |
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| _goblin | Roy, "I might be a millionaire......but there is also a posibilty I am not" ----- Yep makes perfect sense to me. | Feb 09 02:22 |
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| schestowitz | Heh. | Feb 09 02:22 |
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| schestowitz | PiTiVi | Feb 09 02:22 |
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| schestowitz | http://kerneltrap.org/node/8088 | Feb 09 02:22 |
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| phIRCe-BNc | Title: Interview: Avi Kivity | KernelTrap .::. Size~: 38.04 KB | Feb 09 02:22 |
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| _goblin | We all know though Gimp is out......cut through company line....thats the bottom line. | Feb 09 02:23 |
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| _goblin | and a lovely space left for Mono apps. | Feb 09 02:23 |
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| _goblin | but dont worry everyone.......they are doing whats best for YOU.....so sit back and suck it up. | Feb 09 02:24 |
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| -BNtwitter/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] List of #GNU #Linux Geometry Applications, #GIMP Plugins http://ur1.ca/luqn http://ur1.ca/luqo | Feb 09 02:25 |
| phIRCe-BNc | Title: 5 Useful and Fun GIMP Plug-ins Make Tech Easier .::. Size~: 53.02 KB | Feb 09 02:25 |
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| _goblin | For once Roy, I am so pleased you log this channel. | Feb 09 02:25 |
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| cubezzz | no mono on fc1 :) | Feb 09 02:27 |
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| cubezzz | dun dun DUN | Feb 09 02:27 |
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| -BNtwitter/#boycottnovell-[_goblin] @davidgerard Jono says its out..BUT "but there is certainly the possibility the decision may be changed if PiTiVi is not right for Lucid" | Feb 09 02:28 |
| Ender2070 | no mono in f12 | Feb 09 02:28 |
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| Ender2070 | dun dun DUN | Feb 09 02:28 |
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| cubezzz | heh :) | Feb 09 02:29 |
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| cubezzz | I use that too | Feb 09 02:29 |
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| -BNtwitter/#boycottnovell-[_goblin] @davidgerard So we are none the wiser. "its out, but it may not be" | Feb 09 02:29 |
| Ender2070 | f13 is gonna kick ass | Feb 09 02:29 |
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| cubezzz | when it's due? | Feb 09 02:29 |
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| Ender2070 | btrfs time machine | Feb 09 02:29 |
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| Ender2070 | may/june | Feb 09 02:29 |
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| _goblin | won't they skip 13 for sake of superstition? | Feb 09 02:30 |
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| _goblin | ;) | Feb 09 02:30 |
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| schestowitz | Like Microsoft | Feb 09 02:30 |
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| schestowitz | 11 also | Feb 09 02:30 |
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| schestowitz | Office 10 | Feb 09 02:30 |
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| schestowitz | Office 12 (2007) | Feb 09 02:30 |
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| schestowitz | Office 14 (2010 IIRC) | Feb 09 02:30 |
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| schestowitz | Illusion of leaps | Feb 09 02:31 |
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| cubezzz | maybe they don't like odd numbers | Feb 09 02:31 |
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| schestowitz | How to make it look like worthwhile "upgrade" | Feb 09 02:31 |
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| schestowitz | Super Ultra Duper Edition | Feb 09 02:31 |
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| oiaohm_ | Will they get the generic one is as well. ie dm snapshoting. _goblin | Feb 09 02:31 |
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| schestowitz | cubezzz: odd is preserved to their CEO | Feb 09 02:31 |
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| oiaohm_ | Opps. | Feb 09 02:31 |
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| cubezzz | Vista ULTIMATE | Feb 09 02:31 |
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| cubezzz | remember the caps | Feb 09 02:31 |
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| oiaohm_ | Will they get the generic one is as well. ie dm snapshoting. Ender2070 | Feb 09 02:31 |
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| cubezzz | ultimate what though :) | Feb 09 02:32 |
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| schestowitz | cubezzz: don't shout :-) | Feb 09 02:32 |
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| _goblin | it was certainly the ULTIMATE #fail | Feb 09 02:32 |
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| Ender2070 | i dont think so, the feature is proposed for btrfs | Feb 09 02:32 |
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| schestowitz | We get it... it can run an animation in the wallpaper pat... | Feb 09 02:32 |
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| Ender2070 | its super cheap for the filesystem to do snapshots | Feb 09 02:32 |
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| schestowitz | Ultimate: Ultimately we'll get it right..... in the next version, we promise | Feb 09 02:32 |
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| schestowitz | Is Vista in the pan yet? | Feb 09 02:33 |
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| schestowitz | Will they make SPs for it? | Feb 09 02:33 |
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| cubezzz | there's that mac ad "Broken Promises" | Feb 09 02:33 |
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| schestowitz | SP3? | Feb 09 02:33 |
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| schestowitz | Or are its buyers screwed | Feb 09 02:33 |
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| schestowitz | And pushed to move to Service Pack 7? | Feb 09 02:33 |
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| cubezzz | ULTIMATEly they can't really make a good doze | Feb 09 02:33 |
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| schestowitz | Paid 'fix' | Feb 09 02:33 |
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| Ender2070 | vista7 sp1 is being tested | Feb 09 02:33 |
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| cubezzz | I've see some of the code :) | Feb 09 02:33 |
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| cubezzz | some GNU stuff is also bad | Feb 09 02:34 |
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| schestowitz | cubezzz: the joke predates Apple's ads | Feb 09 02:34 |
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| cubezzz | but at least we can change stuff | Feb 09 02:34 |
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| schestowitz | Vista 7 is being tested too | Feb 09 02:34 |
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| oiaohm_ | Really the worse GNU thing has been the complier being bad. | Feb 09 02:34 |
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| schestowitz | Microsoft is selling evaluation copies | Feb 09 02:34 |
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| schestowitz | Some people buy the SP7 to run it for a few | Feb 09 02:34 |
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| schestowitz | http://openbytes.wordpress.com/2010/02/08/windows-7-freezes-dont-worry-its-not-major/ | Feb 09 02:34 |
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| phIRCe-BNc | Title: Windows 7 freezes Dont worry, its not major « OPEN BYTES cave quid dicis, quando, et cui. .::. Size~: 30.07 KB | Feb 09 02:34 |
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| schestowitz | http://www.theinquirer.net/inquirer/news/1590887/windows-stability-issues | Feb 09 02:34 |
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| oiaohm_ | Lot of the updates coming for gcc will improve it function a lot. | Feb 09 02:35 |
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| schestowitz | http://www.computerworld.com/s/article/9153638/Windows_7_stability_update_makes_PCs_unstable_users_report | Feb 09 02:35 |
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| schestowitz | It's all good | Feb 09 02:35 |
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| phIRCe-BNc | Title: Windows 7 stability update makes PCs unstable, users report .::. Size~: 131.58 KB | Feb 09 02:35 |
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| schestowitz | It's working... cause they are finding bugs | Feb 09 02:35 |
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| schestowitz | They found 'battery killing' bugs | Feb 09 02:35 |
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| schestowitz | It's good that they catch all those bugs from testers | Feb 09 02:35 |
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| schestowitz | They can iron it out before version+X | Feb 09 02:35 |
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| schestowitz | The good thing Microsoft did is, they managed to get a lot of people to believe the test build is a final thing | Feb 09 02:36 |
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| schestowitz | Some people paid for it | Feb 09 02:36 |
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| schestowitz | Others managed to test it free of charge | Feb 09 02:36 |
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| schestowitz | RC | Feb 09 02:36 |
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| schestowitz | Expires soon | Feb 09 02:36 |
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| schestowitz | Reboot every 2 hours to cool down the dying battery, of course | Feb 09 02:37 |
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| cubezzz | I have a few gcc versions on this box | Feb 09 02:37 |
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| cubezzz | sometimes I have to use older gcc | Feb 09 02:37 |
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| cubezzz | expired doze | Feb 09 02:38 |
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| cubezzz | well, they are all about $$$ of course | Feb 09 02:38 |
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| schestowitz | http://twitter.com/LuisSala/statuses/8826712090 "@schestowitz To be fair, Andrew King was not a Director, VP or C-level executive at Alfresco. He is, however, a good sales rep and nice guy" | Feb 09 02:39 |
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| phIRCe-BNc | Title: Twitter / Luis Sala: @schestowitz To be fair, A ... .::. Size~: 10.53 KB | Feb 09 02:39 |
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| cubezzz | I can't find any ARM laptops on ebay | Feb 09 02:39 |
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| cubezzz | sorry, not quite true, there was _one_ | Feb 09 02:40 |
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| cubezzz | 400 mhz job | Feb 09 02:40 |
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| *Ender2070 has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) | Feb 09 02:40 |
| cubezzz | tiny screen though | Feb 09 02:40 |
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| _goblin | Im not seeing Jono's ethos of "what we feel is best for our users" being echoed on the Canonical site. I quote: "We believe the open source community simply creates better software. Our community enables us to increase our development capacity many times over. Everyone collaborates. As a result, we deliver higher quality, more secure and more easily integrated software. And we do it more frequently than others do." | Feb 09 02:40 |
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| cubezzz | google send me a valentine's card, lol | Feb 09 02:43 |
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| cubezzz | sent | Feb 09 02:43 |
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| *schestowitz jealous | Feb 09 02:43 |
| oiaohm_ | Our community enables us to increase our development capacity many times over. << Notice the focus on our. | Feb 09 02:43 |
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| schestowitz | Maybe Google wants intercourse w/ you | Feb 09 02:43 |
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| cubezzz | ummm | Feb 09 02:43 |
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| cubezzz | they sent me $100 free advertising card | Feb 09 02:44 |
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| schestowitz | Did Google send flowers? :-) | Feb 09 02:44 |
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| cubezzz | no :) | Feb 09 02:44 |
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| schestowitz | cubezzz: of, that scam | Feb 09 02:44 |
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| schestowitz | They sent me one too | Feb 09 02:44 |
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| schestowitz | Strings attached | Feb 09 02:44 |
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| cubezzz | oh well | Feb 09 02:44 |
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| schestowitz | As the saying gos, "first one's free" | Feb 09 02:44 |
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| cubezzz | well as long as they don't require a credit card | Feb 09 02:45 |
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| schestowitz | It was so messy to start with that I wasted time and gave up in anger | Feb 09 02:45 |
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| schestowitz | They just want you to put your bank details in their DB | Feb 09 02:45 |
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| schestowitz | So they can start charging you | Feb 09 02:45 |
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| cubezzz | hrmmm | Feb 09 02:45 |
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| schestowitz | [02:45] <cubezzz> well as long as they don't require a credit card | Feb 09 02:45 |
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| schestowitz | That's the thing | Feb 09 02:45 |
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| schestowitz | They DO | Feb 09 02:45 |
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| schestowitz | I was annoyed more than anything by it | Feb 09 02:45 |
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| cubezzz | ok, I'll probably not bother then | Feb 09 02:46 |
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| schestowitz | I wish they never sent the turd | Feb 09 02:46 |
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| -BNtwitter/#boycottnovell-[_the_mad_hatter] Damn the Leafs! | Feb 09 02:46 |
| _goblin | Right...I'm off.....good night all... | Feb 09 02:46 |
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| schestowitz | cubezzz: maybe it would be OK if you did want to advertise | Feb 09 02:46 |
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| cubezzz | yeah | Feb 09 02:47 |
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| *ender2070 is running 4.4 :P | Feb 09 02:54 |
| schestowitz | final? | Feb 09 02:55 |
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| ender2070 | yes | Feb 09 02:55 |
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| ender2070 | http://www.pwnage.ca/review_pics/fedora-kde44.png | Feb 09 02:57 |
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| phIRCe-BNc | Title: Not a web page! Aborting image/png type .::. Size~: 0 KB | Feb 09 02:57 |
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| schestowitz | New text effectx | Feb 09 02:58 |
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| schestowitz | I saw that in kseigo's blog | Feb 09 02:58 |
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| -BNtwitter/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] KDE 4.4 is out http://www.pwnage.ca/review_pics/fedora-kde44.png | Feb 09 03:00 |
| phIRCe-BNc | Title: Not a web page! Aborting image/png type .::. Size~: 0 KB | Feb 09 03:00 |
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| ender2070 | http://www.pwnage.ca/?q=node/16 | Feb 09 03:21 |
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| phIRCe-BNc | Title: KDE 4.4 Final in Fedora 12 | www.pwnage.ca .::. Size~: 8.42 KB | Feb 09 03:21 |
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| ender2070 | I wrote about it | Feb 09 03:23 |
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| ender2070 | added 2 more screen shots | Feb 09 03:23 |
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| ender2070 | tabbed window grouping | Feb 09 03:24 |
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| ender2070 | and bloglio | Feb 09 03:24 |
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| -BNtwitter/#boycottnovell-[anivar] RT @jithesh_e_j: RT @slashdot: Oracle Drops Sun's Commitment To Accessibility http://bit.ly/co8pbH | Feb 09 03:28 |
| phIRCe-BNc | Title: Slashdot News Story | Oracle Drops Sun's Commitment To Accessibility .::. Size~: 91.06 KB | Feb 09 03:28 |
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| ender2070 | I hope y'all saw it, I am delaying its publishing till official release of KDE | Feb 09 03:33 |
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| schestowitz | gn | Feb 09 03:54 |
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| -BNtwitter/#boycottnovell-[_the_mad_hatter] @_Goblin If you don't play it on skates, it isn't a real sport. | Feb 09 04:09 |
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| cubezzz | a strange thing happened to me today | Feb 09 05:51 |
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| cubezzz | I couldn't talk to my router and I couldn't rmmod ip_tables | Feb 09 05:52 |
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| cubezzz | iptable_nat 23192 1 (autoclean) | Feb 09 05:53 |
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| cubezzz | ip_conntrack 31336 1 (autoclean) [iptable_nat] | Feb 09 05:53 |
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| cubezzz | ip_tables 15904 3 [iptable_nat] | Feb 09 05:53 |
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| cubezzz | could not rmmod any of those modules, even in init 1 | Feb 09 05:54 |
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| cubezzz | I'm thinking a module got corrupted maybe | Feb 09 06:00 |
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| Ender2070 | http://fas.org/nuke/control/enmod/text/environ2.htm | Feb 09 06:03 |
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| phIRCe-BNc | Title: ENVIRONMENTAL MODIFICATION CONVENTION .::. Size~: 16.93 KB | Feb 09 06:03 |
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| cubezzz | is there a way to see which process is using which module? | Feb 09 06:11 |
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| -BNi/#boycottnovell-[sagarun/@sagarun] using xmllint to parse and validate xml documents against DTD http://xmlsoft.org/xmllint.html | Feb 09 06:27 |
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| -BNtwitter/#boycottnovell-[qu1j0t3] Yaron Minsky "Ppl get connected to their programming language... like they get connected to nothing except their text editor" Jane St #ocaml | Feb 09 06:28 |
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| -BNtwitter/#boycottnovell-[qu1j0t3] "One of the luxuries we have...we don't hire bad programmers. & when you don't hire bad programmers, many things become easier." @YMinsky | Feb 09 06:42 |
| -BNtwitter/#boycottnovell-[qu1j0t3] "F# does not perform well for symbolic code. And the reason is, it has to allocate too much." Yaron Minsky #ocaml #programming #fp | Feb 09 06:43 |
| -BNtwitter/#boycottnovell-[qu1j0t3] >@hyperlocavore RT @seanbedlam: So happy there are many Aussie fans of #SarahPalin. // ugh, good to know. racist place. was in #iraq | Feb 09 06:44 |
| DaemonFC | the judge ruled that my friend is a legal permanent resident after 3 hearings and 4 years of fighting the system | Feb 09 06:58 |
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| DaemonFC | and she can apply for citizenship in 5 years | Feb 09 06:58 |
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| DaemonFC | millions of illegal aliens knowingly and intentionally hop the fence and break our laws and when someone wants to do the right thing, the government fucks them over for years | Feb 09 06:59 |
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| DaemonFC | everything I've come to expect | Feb 09 06:59 |
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| DaemonFC | "your payee (the mental health center) decides what you get and as long as you eat, sleep, shit, and wear clothes, the government won't stop them from doing anything, watch them forge the ledgers and receipts, put in $50,000 coffee pots and $20,000 toilet seats to make the books come out even while they're pocketing half your money" | Feb 09 07:07 |
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| DaemonFC | -Me talking to someone I know that's gone on SSDI | Feb 09 07:07 |
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| -BNtwitter/#boycottnovell-[davidgerard] Peter Tatchell's PM petition not to pay for the Pope's UK visit http://petitions.number10.gov.uk/ProtestthePope/ please forward everywhere | Feb 09 08:12 |
| phIRCe-BNc | Title: Introduction to e-petitions | Number10.gov.uk .::. Size~: 11.79 KB | Feb 09 08:12 |
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| schestowitz | Hmmmmmm....... | Feb 09 09:19 |
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| schestowitz | Are comments in BN working? | Feb 09 09:20 |
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| DaemonFC | schestowitz, I'd like to nominate Bethesda for buggiest video games of all time | Feb 09 09:34 |
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| DaemonFC | where do I do that? :) | Feb 09 09:34 |
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| DaemonFC | lmao | Feb 09 09:37 |
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| DaemonFC | "64bit is a bonus, and I have not benchmarked it - in truth it will only be available in snow leopard or better, at that point you have a relatively modern mac..." | Feb 09 09:37 |
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| DaemonFC | X86-64 has been around for five years and Snow Leopard is just starting to support it | Feb 09 09:38 |
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| DaemonFC | I really don't get what the deal is with Macs, I used on a few years ago at Best Buy for 20 minutes when I was trying to decide whether to stay on PC or not and the first 5 minutes was managing to crash it and having a salesperson reset it for me | Feb 09 09:39 |
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| -BNi/#boycottnovell-[satipera/@satipera] Germany, Europe, and the states facing debt defaults. Interesting article on EU finance crisis and what it means for EU. http://is.gd/7ZQZc | Feb 09 09:42 |
| phIRCe-BNc | Title: Germany's Choice | STRATFOR .::. Size~: 53.64 KB | Feb 09 09:42 |
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| schestowitz | Germany too??? | Feb 09 09:46 |
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| schestowitz | I thought they were a lot better off based on some economists | Feb 09 09:46 |
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| schestowitz | Well, maybe China will bail out the West :-) | Feb 09 09:46 |
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| -BNtwitter/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] RT @satipera Germany, Europe, and the states facing debt defaults. Interesting article on EU finance crisis... http://is.gd/7ZQZc | Feb 09 09:52 |
| phIRCe-BNc | Title: Germany's Choice | STRATFOR .::. Size~: 53.64 KB | Feb 09 09:52 |
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| DaemonFC | schestowitz, well, at least we'll all die together, as friends? right? *grin* | Feb 09 09:53 |
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| DaemonFC | Coalition of the Indebted | Feb 09 09:53 |
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| DaemonFC | http://mac.blorge.com/2010/02/08/16-month-old-flash-bug-plagues-mac-linux-pc/ | Feb 09 09:54 |
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| phIRCe-BNc | Title: 16 month old Flash bug plagues Mac, Linux, PC - MAC.BLORGE .::. Size~: 40.15 KB | Feb 09 09:54 |
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| DaemonFC | Apparently Linux users don't have a PC | Feb 09 09:55 |
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| DaemonFC | I must remember to name this thing that I have running Linux | Feb 09 09:55 |
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| -BNi/#boycottnovell-[sagarun/@sagarun] Dating your colleague? Make it work! - http://www.idiva.com/bin/idiva/Making-love-work ( via shivaranjan ) | Feb 09 09:57 |
| DaemonFC | schestowitz, I have my reservations about <video> | Feb 09 09:59 |
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| DaemonFC | will it end up being just another advertisement tool? | Feb 09 09:59 |
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| cubezzz | I'm sure it will, to some degree | Feb 09 10:00 |
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| cubezzz | in the 50's tv shows had the name of the product in the show's name | Feb 09 10:01 |
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| DaemonFC | cubezzz, I'd actually prefer that | Feb 09 10:01 |
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| cubezzz | "Colgate Presents the blanky blank show" | Feb 09 10:01 |
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| DaemonFC | well, other than it would ruin the show on DVD too | Feb 09 10:01 |
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| cubezzz | Disney DVD anyone? :) | Feb 09 10:02 |
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| -BNtwitter/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] United Nations and World Bank Help @BillGates and #Microsoft Colonise #Africa http://ur1.ca/lvhh #monsanto #gmo #corruption | Feb 09 10:03 |
| phIRCe-BNc | Title: United Nations and World Bank Help Bill Gates and Microsoft Colonise Africa | Boycott Novell .::. Size~: 107.35 KB | Feb 09 10:03 |
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| DaemonFC | cubezzz, The great thing about stand-alone hardware has always been that once they finalized it, they couldn't go back and add more DRM to it later | Feb 09 10:03 |
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| DaemonFC | Blu-Ray changes that | Feb 09 10:03 |
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| *Ksebsebseb3 is now known as sebsebseb | Feb 09 10:04 |
| DaemonFC | you hook it up to the internet, or put a new blu ray disc in it, it can update the player firmware | Feb 09 10:04 |
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| sebsebseb | oiaohm_ about? | Feb 09 10:04 |
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| DaemonFC | Microsoft has been telling people for years that eventually there won't be any discs, games just get downloaded | Feb 09 10:05 |
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| DaemonFC | I'd like to know how that's going to work | Feb 09 10:05 |
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| sebsebseb | Pyscial CD's and DVD's take up space | Feb 09 10:05 |
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| cubezzz | don't connect your bluray to the internet | Feb 09 10:06 |
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| sebsebseb | would be good if we could just legally download stuff, but right sure we can, but at the moment, useually to do that means DRM | Feb 09 10:06 |
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| sebsebseb | it can be pretty nice to have the pshyical product, but not always | Feb 09 10:06 |
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| sebsebseb | also as far as I know Blue Ray is rather propritary and can't even get it to legally work with Desktop Linux at the moment? | Feb 09 10:07 |
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| cubezzz | we can, there's nothing that will stop us | Feb 09 10:07 |
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| sebsebseb | well I suppouse a Windows virtual machine would work, but I meant natively | Feb 09 10:07 |
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| cubezzz | check with doom9, they pretty much have it all figured out | Feb 09 10:07 |
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| cubezzz | even so, I still tell people to buy media | Feb 09 10:09 |
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| sebsebseb | HD is pft anyway | Feb 09 10:09 |
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| sebsebseb | I don't seem to see it | Feb 09 10:09 |
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| cubezzz | you need an HDTV | Feb 09 10:09 |
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| sebsebseb | next big thing will be 3D TV, already seen some BBC Click stuff about that | Feb 09 10:09 |
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| cubezzz | they do good nice | Feb 09 10:09 |
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| sebsebseb | yes we have a HDTV | Feb 09 10:09 |
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| sebsebseb | and it's 40 inch | Feb 09 10:09 |
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| sebsebseb | point is I don't seem to see the difference between HD and standard TV | Feb 09 10:09 |
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| cubezzz | you got to be joking | Feb 09 10:09 |
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| cubezzz | 1920x1024? | Feb 09 10:10 |
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| sebsebseb | it's probably on the thing it's meant to be | Feb 09 10:10 |
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| cubezzz | compared to stanard res which is at most 640x480? | Feb 09 10:10 |
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| cubezzz | ok, I assume you have seen 1080i? | Feb 09 10:11 |
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| cubezzz | no comparison | Feb 09 10:11 |
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| sebsebseb | hell I watched Avater 3D in the cinema, with some 3D glasses on, and well | Feb 09 10:11 |
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| sebsebseb | I didn't seem to notice 3D there, like before, go back 10 years or so, and yeah it's right there in front of the eyes | Feb 09 10:11 |
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| sebsebseb | well they have changed 3D cinema a bit now it seems | Feb 09 10:12 |
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| cubezzz | ok, I was just talking about HDTV not 3d | Feb 09 10:12 |
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| cubezzz | it's fake 3d anyways :) | Feb 09 10:12 |
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| sebsebseb | and I am talking about not seeing stuff that I am meant to be seeing | Feb 09 10:12 |
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| cubezzz | true 3d would be a real time hologram | Feb 09 10:12 |
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| DaemonFC | I seem to remember a way to watch Blu Ray movies on Linux | Feb 09 10:12 |
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| DaemonFC | the drive itself works, burning a BD-R works | Feb 09 10:12 |
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| sebsebseb | HD and Blue Ray and all that | Feb 09 10:13 |
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| sebsebseb | it will be old technology soon ish | Feb 09 10:13 |
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| sebsebseb | 3D TV is coming | Feb 09 10:13 |
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| cubezzz | it's still a 2d screen | Feb 09 10:13 |
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| sebsebseb | in fact some pubs in the UK are going to show some 3D football game or something yeah | Feb 09 10:13 |
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| sebsebseb | later this year | Feb 09 10:13 |
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| sebsebseb | and people will wear the glasses | Feb 09 10:13 |
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| sebsebseb | and it will be on a proper 3D TV | Feb 09 10:13 |
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| DaemonFC | 3d TVs won't happen soon unless you mean stereoscopic 3d | Feb 09 10:13 |
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| sebsebseb | 3D TV's are coming it seems the start of that is this year | Feb 09 10:14 |
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| sebsebseb | and all this stuff is propritary, new ways for the companies to make even more money | Feb 09 10:14 |
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| cubezzz | yes, like that old video game subroc-3 | Feb 09 10:14 |
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| sebsebseb | and then they hype up their new stuff | Feb 09 10:15 |
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| sebsebseb | that's how it works | Feb 09 10:15 |
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| sebsebseb | and people fall for it and buy it | Feb 09 10:15 |
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| cubezzz | HDTV was a decent update for TVs though | Feb 09 10:16 |
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| DaemonFC | sebsebseb, http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SIkF_qLWu7I | Feb 09 10:16 |
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| cubezzz | plus now we have Linux TVs :) | Feb 09 10:16 |
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| sebsebseb | anyway HD TV is a bit sucky for us | Feb 09 10:16 |
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| sebsebseb | since the TV provider | Feb 09 10:16 |
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| sebsebseb | not that much HD stuff | Feb 09 10:17 |
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| cubezzz | sebsebseb, it sounds like you aren't getting any 1080i channels maybe? | Feb 09 10:17 |
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| sebsebseb | we are getting basic HD stuff I guess | Feb 09 10:17 |
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| sebsebseb | BBC HD and then some HD stuff on demand as well | Feb 09 10:17 |
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| sebsebseb | our TV provider sucks really | Feb 09 10:18 |
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| cubezzz | Antenna is coming back into vogue | Feb 09 10:19 |
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| cubezzz | but I'm in a good location | Feb 09 10:20 |
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| cubezzz | between Toronto and Buffalo | Feb 09 10:20 |
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| sebsebseb | I am not sure why you liked to that cubezzz Batman films are alright yeah, but Batman was overly hyped before as well | Feb 09 10:21 |
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| sebsebseb | linked to liked above | Feb 09 10:21 |
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| cubezzz | ? | Feb 09 10:21 |
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| sebsebseb | cubeezz whoops wrong one | Feb 09 10:21 |
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| cubezzz | ok :) | Feb 09 10:22 |
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| sebsebseb | I meant DaemonFC so yeah see above you | Feb 09 10:22 |
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| sebsebseb | also I think stuff like that isn't meant to be on Youtube | Feb 09 10:22 |
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| DaemonFC | the 3d tv :P | Feb 09 10:22 |
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| sebsebseb | yeah probably about half of the stuff or more on Youtube isn't meant to be on their | Feb 09 10:24 |
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| sebsebseb | since copyright | Feb 09 10:24 |
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| cubezzz | I liked Spiderman 2, surprisingly | Feb 09 10:24 |
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| cubezzz | I liked the depiction of Dr. Octopus | Feb 09 10:24 |
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| sebsebseb | I like a lot of movies, but I can also appreciate low budget movies | Feb 09 10:24 |
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| sebsebseb | some of which are pretty good | Feb 09 10:24 |
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| DaemonFC | I wonder if anyone uploaded Hard Candy | Feb 09 10:24 |
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| DaemonFC | that was a twisted movie | Feb 09 10:24 |
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| sebsebseb | where as quite a lot of people basically only watch or tend to only watch Blockbusters | Feb 09 10:25 |
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| cubezzz | a lot of them are just mindless violence | Feb 09 10:25 |
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| DaemonFC | cubezzz, A lot of the really low budget movies are more entertaining | Feb 09 10:25 |
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| cubezzz | like what? | Feb 09 10:25 |
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| DaemonFC | the big budget stuff is just too perfect | Feb 09 10:26 |
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| DaemonFC | cubezzz, Clerks is the best example I can think of | Feb 09 10:26 |
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| DaemonFC | $25,000 production budget :) | Feb 09 10:26 |
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| oiaohm_ | sebsebseb: back eventounally. | Feb 09 10:26 |
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| cubezzz | Robot Monster :) | Feb 09 10:26 |
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| sebsebseb | oiaohm_ that Jono stuff from last night was interesting to read | Feb 09 10:26 |
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| sebsebseb | no Jono in the channel right now or goblin though so uhmm | Feb 09 10:27 |
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| DaemonFC | cubezzz, The problem is that you can't get specialty stuff on DVD anymore unless you go online | Feb 09 10:27 |
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| DaemonFC | Walmart muscled out all the specialty movie and music stores | Feb 09 10:27 |
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| sebsebseb | oiaohm_ I read through that earlier | Feb 09 10:27 |
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| DaemonFC | now you don't get anything locally that hasn't been heavily censored | Feb 09 10:28 |
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| sebsebseb | anyway Ubuntu is starting to target the average consuemr more | Feb 09 10:28 |
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| sebsebseb | people who want to get away from Windows | Feb 09 10:28 |
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| sebsebseb | with qute a lot of them wanting to do a bit of basic photo editing and maybe video edting | Feb 09 10:28 |
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| sebsebseb | Ubuntu isn't for geeks anymore! | Feb 09 10:28 |
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| sebsebseb | it never really was in the first place | Feb 09 10:28 |
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| DaemonFC | sebsebseb, Targeting any other market than that is stupid if you want desktop users | Feb 09 10:29 |
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| sebsebseb | there are other apps that could replace F-Spot so Mono doesn't have to be on the CD | Feb 09 10:29 |
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| oiaohm_ | My problem here sebsebseb that is there target. But I don't see any research backing up there actions. | Feb 09 10:29 |
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| sebsebseb | DaemonFC exactly | Feb 09 10:29 |
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| DaemonFC | Debian has been around for years and makes a horrible desktop | Feb 09 10:29 |
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| sebsebseb | DaemonFC they want to make money, so they need to target the average consumer more, and make business users happy | Feb 09 10:29 |
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| DaemonFC | it can be a desktop, but the process to make it work as one is so involved that nobody wants to do it | Feb 09 10:29 |
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| sebsebseb | Debian as a horrible desktop never tried it out properly as a desktop, but | Feb 09 10:30 |
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| sebsebseb | the way Debian does releasse's seems off putting | Feb 09 10:30 |
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| sebsebseb | I mean | Feb 09 10:30 |
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| sebsebseb | stable with rather old packages | Feb 09 10:30 |
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| oiaohm_ | How do you target the average consumer if you don't have the data? sebsebseb | Feb 09 10:30 |
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| sebsebseb | or testing with newer stuff that might brake | Feb 09 10:30 |
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| DaemonFC | mostly what got me on Ubuntu in the first place was how outdated everything in Debian was and that the more up to date Debian-based distros were like Mepis and Linspire | Feb 09 10:30 |
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| sebsebseb | yeah plus Debian has Iceweasel now instead of Firefox | Feb 09 10:31 |
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| oiaohm_ | OpenOffice and Firefox and other on interface design these days are learning the importance of having the data. sebsebseb | Feb 09 10:31 |
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| sebsebseb | average people don't want that, they want "real" Firefox | Feb 09 10:31 |
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| DaemonFC | I got a free Linspire CD and went to install it, and then found out that they wanted subscription money so I could access their apt repository | Feb 09 10:31 |
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| sebsebseb | Ubuntu has a ppa or whatever now for Firefox 3.6 | Feb 09 10:31 |
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| sebsebseb | they should really sort this out | Feb 09 10:32 |
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| sebsebseb | so people can easilly get later new versions of programs from the repo | Feb 09 10:32 |
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| oiaohm_ | sebsebseb: Average people use IE in large numbers as well. | Feb 09 10:32 |
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| oiaohm_ | So iceweasel name issue is not that big of one. sebsebseb | Feb 09 10:32 |
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| DaemonFC | If it wasn't for Ubuntu, I could probably live with Debian Testing, but even there things can go wrong | Feb 09 10:32 |
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| sebsebseb | oiaohm_ sure, but most/all of those that go to Desktop Linux will want FIrefox not "that Iceweasel thing" | Feb 09 10:32 |
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| sebsebseb | now days some will want Chrome actsaulley | Feb 09 10:33 |
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| oiaohm_ | Where is the research data to that sebsebseb | Feb 09 10:33 |
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| DaemonFC | sebsebseb, The IceWeasel thing is not important | Feb 09 10:33 |
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| sebsebseb | and I am talking about default installs here | Feb 09 10:33 |
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| DaemonFC | it has the same features, uses the same add-ons, the only difference is name and artwork | Feb 09 10:33 |
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| oiaohm_ | This is the problem most of Ubuntu actions are guess work. sebsebseb | Feb 09 10:33 |
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| DaemonFC | I don't think the average user would even care if that's the only thing out of place | Feb 09 10:33 |
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| sebsebseb | DaemonFC well it doesn't help much with browser market share, if your going around the web using Iceweasel with that user agent string | Feb 09 10:33 |
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| oiaohm_ | Why did they make unstable pulseaudio default? sebsebseb | Feb 09 10:34 |
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| DaemonFC | sebsebseb, It still says the Gecko version and such | Feb 09 10:34 |
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| sebsebseb | oh the web would have been pretty great by now, if Internet Explore hadn't messed that up | Feb 09 10:34 |
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| oiaohm_ | It make no logical sence to do that. | Feb 09 10:34 |
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| sebsebseb | Google are starting to stop suppouring IE 6 a lot more | Feb 09 10:34 |
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| DaemonFC | sebsebseb, I would think that most places would just group all Mozilla-ish browsers together | Feb 09 10:34 |
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| sebsebseb | and that browser choice screen will be coming to European Windows users, next month | Feb 09 10:34 |
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| oiaohm_ | sebsebseb: If you look at Ubuntu actions over and over again. We are including this because it cool. | Feb 09 10:34 |
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| DaemonFC | the differences between IE 6 and IE 7 are minimal | Feb 09 10:35 |
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| oiaohm_ | Why include compiz that is know to break with many different opengl programs. sebsebseb | Feb 09 10:35 |
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| sebsebseb | DaemonFC really to improve the web, a standards complaint rendering engine has to be the most used, and web developers need to know that | Feb 09 10:35 |
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| DaemonFC | sebsebseb, There were frontends to IE 6 that let you use tabs and ad blocking | Feb 09 10:35 |
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| oiaohm_ | When you get down the the basics. Most users just want a default web browser that works. sebsebseb | Feb 09 10:36 |
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| DaemonFC | that's really the only substantive difference with it and IE 7 | Feb 09 10:36 |
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| oiaohm_ | A machine that runs stable. | Feb 09 10:36 |
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| sebsebseb | DaemonFC and they can check out their website statistics to see what browsers are going on their site, but not all web developers know what Iceweasel is for example | Feb 09 10:36 |
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| DaemonFC | sebsebseb, It's Mozilla's fault for heckling Debian and working with Ubuntu to clear things up in a civil manner | Feb 09 10:37 |
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| oiaohm_ | Most web sites don't detect a difference between iceweasel and firefox. | Feb 09 10:37 |
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| DaemonFC | Ubuntu's Firefox has all the patches that go into Debian's IceWeasel | Feb 09 10:37 |
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| DaemonFC | Debian is a big reason why Firefox on Linux doesn't suck | Feb 09 10:37 |
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| DaemonFC | hell of a way for Mozilla to have said thank you | Feb 09 10:37 |
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| sebsebseb | oiaohm_ in the website statistics it will still say Iceweasel not Firefox | Feb 09 10:37 |
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| *amarsh04 uses Debian unstable with kde held back at 3.5.10 | Feb 09 10:37 |
| sebsebseb | DaemonFC Debian is a big reason why Firefox sucks on distros? | Feb 09 10:38 |
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| oiaohm_ | And using KDE 4 beside Iceweasel in menu it simple reads web browser. | Feb 09 10:38 |
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| sebsebseb | DeamonFC oh doesn't suck | Feb 09 10:38 |
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| oiaohm_ | Exactly what more does the user need to know sebsebseb | Feb 09 10:38 |
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| DaemonFC | sebsebseb, I was reading a list of things Debian fixed so Firefox works better on Linux, and it was a long list of really substantive things | Feb 09 10:39 |
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| sebsebseb | oiaohm_ I still think it's best for most web users to be using Firefox | Feb 09 10:39 |
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| sebsebseb | after all some sites are still IE only out there | Feb 09 10:39 |
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| sebsebseb | and FIrefox is the number 2 | Feb 09 10:39 |
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| sebsebseb | and has most market share, than any version of IE on it's own I read | Feb 09 10:39 |
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| sebsebseb | ,but with other verisons of IE, IE still has most | Feb 09 10:39 |
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| oiaohm_ | There is only one major difference between real firefox and iceweasel. | Feb 09 10:39 |
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| DaemonFC | sebsebseb, Mozilla develops Firefox in a very Windows-centric way | Feb 09 10:39 |
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| sebsebseb | oiaohm_ yeah the user agent string | Feb 09 10:39 |
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| oiaohm_ | No other than user agent string. | Feb 09 10:40 |
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| sebsebseb | the logo | Feb 09 10:40 |
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| DaemonFC | and Linux distros have had to fix things that broke because they were only ever made to work on Windows | Feb 09 10:40 |
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| sebsebseb | and default theme | Feb 09 10:40 |
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| amarsh04 | some parts of KDE 4.X aren't ready yet... k3b for KDE 4.X only just appeared in Debian Unstable, Rosegarden is a build-yourself package and Quanta is a long way from ready for KDE 4.X | Feb 09 10:40 |
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| oiaohm_ | Tracking information is missing in iceweasel. sebsebseb | Feb 09 10:40 |
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| sebsebseb | oiaohm_ tracking hrm? | Feb 09 10:40 |
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| sebsebseb | amarsh64 yeah quite a few or a lot of people using KDE 3 still | Feb 09 10:41 |
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| sebsebseb | amarash64 I have been reading some stuff here and there recently | Feb 09 10:41 |
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| oiaohm_ | Mozilla uses advertisement funding. That goes against one of Debian rules. Hello where the fight comes from sebsebseb | Feb 09 10:41 |
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| sebsebseb | oiaohm_ maybe so, but if I was to run Debian, I would put real Firefox in there | Feb 09 10:41 |
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| DaemonFC | sebsebseb, http://glandium.org/blog/?p=97 | Feb 09 10:41 |
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| phIRCe-BNc | Title: glandium.org » Blog Archive » Facts about Debian and Mozilla® Firefox® .::. Size~: 73.77 KB | Feb 09 10:41 |
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| oiaohm_ | I have not bothered sebsebseb | Feb 09 10:42 |
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| sebsebseb | or if I was lazy I could just change the Iceweasel user agent to the Firefox one, but that would be lieing realy, since I woudn't be using Firefox :D | Feb 09 10:42 |
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| oiaohm_ | I normally install useragent switcher anyhow sebsebseb | Feb 09 10:42 |
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| DaemonFC | the long long list of patches made by Debian to make Firefox not suck on Linux | Feb 09 10:42 |
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| DaemonFC | that's jsut as of Firefox 2 | Feb 09 10:42 |
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| oiaohm_ | sebsebseb: ie to get me into sites that are not firefox or iceweasel url friendly. sebsebseb | Feb 09 10:42 |
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| sebsebseb | exacty that's another thing | Feb 09 10:42 |
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| sebsebseb | some sites will block Iceweasel | Feb 09 10:42 |
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| oiaohm_ | Some goverment sites here you have to return netscape 7 and 6 strings to get in sebsebseb | Feb 09 10:42 |
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| sebsebseb | ,but Firefox no problem | Feb 09 10:43 |
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| oiaohm_ | More sites block both sebsebseb | Feb 09 10:43 |
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| sebsebseb | that's the kind of thing I meant as well, when I was saying how loads of web developers won't know what Iceweasel is, or whatever I said | Feb 09 10:43 |
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| DaemonFC | Debian has to unfuck Firefox to even get it to build on many non-x86 architectures | Feb 09 10:43 |
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| amarsh04 | sometimes midori or webkit's gtkLauncher works where firefox/iceaweasel has problems | Feb 09 10:43 |
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| amarsh04 | np: Philip Glass - Heroes Symphony | Feb 09 10:44 |
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| sebsebseb | DaemonFC as for Mozilla develloping FIrefox for Windows users mainly, that sounds about right | Feb 09 10:44 |
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| sebsebseb | for example how their is a slighlty differnet theme | Feb 09 10:44 |
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| sebsebseb | when it's run on XP or when it's run on Vista | Feb 09 10:44 |
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| oiaohm_ | sebsebseb: More and more web developers want to build sites to standard. | Feb 09 10:45 |
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| DaemonFC | Firefox uses a GTK+ mask, if you remove that it looks like ass on Linux | Feb 09 10:45 |
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| DaemonFC | :D | Feb 09 10:45 |
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| oiaohm_ | So the importance of browser is fading sebsebseb | Feb 09 10:45 |
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| oiaohm_ | If your browser cannot handle standard more and more sites will just lock you out. | Feb 09 10:45 |
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| sebsebseb | oiaohm_ as for Ubuntu I guess it's like Gnome and KDE and so on, they assume users want this and that, so they put in those features, actsaully with Gnome they seem to put developers first, for example that re write of GDM that can't be themed like the old one | Feb 09 10:45 |
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| sebsebseb | oh I guess same thing for Grub really, what was wrong with the old Grub nothing? ,but now we got that Grub 2 re write, which people are having issues with | Feb 09 10:46 |
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| amarsh04 | my optical drive was having problems reading the Philip Glass cd - I washed the cd and rinsed it with demineralised water, and leaving water on the disk when putting it in the drive actually helped, maybe that helped remove dirt from the drive lens | Feb 09 10:46 |
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| oiaohm_ | KDE is different. | Feb 09 10:46 |
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| DaemonFC | "The main difference by that time was the extensions manager, which, in Debian, needed a lot of changes to actually act as it should, especially with globally installed extensions. I’m not saying the Debian one was perfect, it also had its own problems, but that was a whole lot less than the blatant crap that was the official one, obviously written for Windows without any thoughts for unix, and especially linux distributions." | Feb 09 10:46 |
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| DaemonFC | :) | Feb 09 10:46 |
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| oiaohm_ | Ok KDE sometimes has major communication problems. | Feb 09 10:46 |
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| amarsh04 | at least with grub there are several very dedicated and helpful developers | Feb 09 10:46 |
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| oiaohm_ | IE KDE 4.0 was a class level 10 screwup. | Feb 09 10:46 |
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| sebsebseb | yeah KDE 4 is uh | Feb 09 10:48 |
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| sebsebseb | altough now I can use it as a DE | Feb 09 10:48 |
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| oiaohm_ | Most KDE features are based on user requests. You can track where the feature was requested. Hated features also based on user feed back disappear. sebsebseb | Feb 09 10:48 |
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| sebsebseb | without going back to Gnome so soon after woulds | Feb 09 10:48 |
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| sebsebseb | and I run Konverstion in Gnome | Feb 09 10:48 |
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| sebsebseb | and here and there will be some other KDE apps as well | Feb 09 10:48 |
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| amarsh04 | grub2 works on XO1 (OLPC), Yeelong (the MIPS-based netbook that Richard Stallman uses), powerpc, sparc and x86 | Feb 09 10:48 |
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| DaemonFC | http://mjg59.livejournal.com/68112.html | Feb 09 10:49 |
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| phIRCe-BNc | Title: mjg59: So it's been pointed out that since I'm .::. Size~: 85.95 KB | Feb 09 10:49 |
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| amarsh04 | probably others too | Feb 09 10:49 |
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| oiaohm_ | KDE 4.0 event was truely caused by feature requests people were asking for to be done to 3.5 | Feb 09 10:49 |
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| sebsebseb | oh we got people that aren't happy that Gimp is being removed from Ubuntu and blah de balh | Feb 09 10:49 |
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| sebsebseb | ,but | Feb 09 10:49 |
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| sebsebseb | that's 10.04 | Feb 09 10:49 |
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| oiaohm_ | That was impossiable. sebsebseb | Feb 09 10:49 |
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| sebsebseb | I am already thinking about 10.10 | Feb 09 10:49 |
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| sebsebseb | and 11.04 myself | Feb 09 10:49 |
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| sebsebseb | when it comes to Gnome 3 | Feb 09 10:49 |
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| oiaohm_ | That is what most people are not aware of. People might tar and feather KDE at times. But it is trying todo what people are requesting. sebsebseb | Feb 09 10:49 |
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| sebsebseb | Gnome 3 might be like KDE 4 to begin with | Feb 09 10:50 |
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| amarsh04 | Grub had to be unbroken to support folks such as myself running a boot hard disk bigger than what the BIOS sees | Feb 09 10:50 |
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| sebsebseb | with not many users happy with it | Feb 09 10:50 |
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| oiaohm_ | Unlikely sebsebseb | Feb 09 10:50 |
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| sebsebseb | oiaohm_ Why do you think that? | Feb 09 10:50 |
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| DaemonFC | sebsebseb, I'd think that most people would agree with me when I say that I'd rather have a program that works right and integrates with the surrounding OS than have the program be named Firefox | Feb 09 10:50 |
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| DaemonFC | there's a way to remove Firefox branding from Firefox in Ubuntu | Feb 09 10:50 |
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| sebsebseb | I think most users are happy with Gnome 2 | Feb 09 10:50 |
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| sebsebseb | and well Ubuntu do it | Feb 09 10:50 |
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| oiaohm_ | KDE 4.0 to enable providing the features that people were requesting in KDE 3.5 that were impossible they had to break backward compadiblity of the API. | Feb 09 10:51 |
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| DaemonFC | it then calls itself "Web Browser" and uses the generic globe | Feb 09 10:51 |
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| sebsebseb | editing of Gnome 2 here and there, next version is meant to have social features | Feb 09 10:51 |
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| oiaohm_ | In the case of Gnome 3. Gnome is not in that location. sebsebseb | Feb 09 10:51 |
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| sebsebseb | a distro could maintain Gnome 2 or KDE 3 them selves | Feb 09 10:51 |
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| oiaohm_ | Ie Gnome 3 should be smooth unless Gnome developers decide to be insane. sebsebseb | Feb 09 10:51 |
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| DaemonFC | sebsebseb, GNOME says they're keeping the present interface as an option for users who don't want the GNOME Shell | Feb 09 10:51 |
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| DaemonFC | so I feel good about upgrading to GNOME 3 when it's time | Feb 09 10:51 |
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| sebsebseb | just like they can maintain Grub legacy, which apparnatly Mandriva will be doing, since I was told by someone on IRC, that it will be used in their next one | Feb 09 10:52 |
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| DaemonFC | GRUB Legacy is a mistake | Feb 09 10:52 |
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| sebsebseb | DaemonFC ah yes I did read something like that, how they will maintain Gnome 2 | Feb 09 10:52 |
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| sebsebseb | for a bit | Feb 09 10:52 |
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| DaemonFC | depending on it, I mean, since it's now effectively a Mandriva program | Feb 09 10:52 |
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| sebsebseb | anyway I guess Gnome 3 won't be default in Ubuntu 10.10 since it will be to new then, since it's getting released in September | Feb 09 10:52 |
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| DaemonFC | sebsebseb, It'll be there for years I'm sure | Feb 09 10:52 |
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| sebsebseb | maybe it will be default in 11.04, but if not that version, probably 11.11 | Feb 09 10:53 |
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| sebsebseb | 11.10 I mean | Feb 09 10:53 |
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| sebsebseb | and then 12.04 is LTS | Feb 09 10:53 |
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| oiaohm_ | Last time I went to the Grub site Grub 2 is not offically released yet. | Feb 09 10:53 |
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| oiaohm_ | And that was due to outstanding bugs. | Feb 09 10:53 |
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| DaemonFC | sebsebseb, A lot of corporate users that don't want lots of money invested in retraining people means that the GNOME 2 interface will live on for probably -5-6 years yet | Feb 09 10:53 |
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| oiaohm_ | The big reason for the KDE 4.0 chanage | Feb 09 10:54 |
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| DaemonFC | it's good enough, it's smart enough, and gosh darn it, people like it :D | Feb 09 10:54 |
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| sebsebseb | DaemonFC sounds good to me I like Gnome 2 | Feb 09 10:54 |
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| oiaohm_ | Was the request from corporates to use 1 application no matter the platform. | Feb 09 10:54 |
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| sebsebseb | altough they have removed icons from the system menu | Feb 09 10:54 |
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| sebsebseb | and some of places | Feb 09 10:54 |
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| oiaohm_ | KDE 3.5 is heavly stuck to X11. | Feb 09 10:54 |
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| sebsebseb | that can be enabled in Karmic, but I did Lucid alpha 2 and well no | Feb 09 10:54 |
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| sebsebseb | the thing to enable them got removed, maybe can enable in gconf though | Feb 09 10:54 |
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| DaemonFC | yeah, KDE is never what you see on a desktop Linux for corporate use, it's just not appropriate, it changes too often | Feb 09 10:54 |
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| sebsebseb | KDE 3.5 is good as well, would have been good if they maintained KDE 3 upstream as well, for a few years or so, but no | Feb 09 10:55 |
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| DaemonFC | changes come in huge megapatches | Feb 09 10:55 |
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| sebsebseb | DaemonFC oh I think that is one of the reasons for why Ubuntu is Gnome by default | Feb 09 10:55 |
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| sebsebseb | Gnome is also rather keep it simple stupid | Feb 09 10:55 |
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| DaemonFC | deploying a KDE upgrade is not fun, it just isn't | Feb 09 10:55 |
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| oiaohm_ | Be aware corporates are developing kde for corporates. | Feb 09 10:55 |
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| sebsebseb | easy to use | Feb 09 10:55 |
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| oiaohm_ | So DaemonFC you statements are kinda false. | Feb 09 10:55 |
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| DaemonFC | sebsebseb, A lot of changes happen in the background in GNOME, where the user doesn't see it happen | Feb 09 10:56 |
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| oiaohm_ | The corporate funders understood the importance of breaking completely once to fix a major cross platform issue. | Feb 09 10:56 |
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| sebsebseb | some people think the default Gnome look, looks like Windows 3.1 or something | Feb 09 10:56 |
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| sebsebseb | ,but whatever | Feb 09 10:56 |
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| DaemonFC | the ones you do see are small and a few at a time | Feb 09 10:56 |
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| sebsebseb | it's good | Feb 09 10:56 |
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| oiaohm_ | Ok how hard has it been to upgrade from KDE 4.0 threw to KDE 4.4 DaemonFC | Feb 09 10:56 |
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| oiaohm_ | The configurations there are stable. | Feb 09 10:57 |
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| DaemonFC | KDE basically took a wrecking ball to 3.x and released an untested unreliable KDE 4 | Feb 09 10:57 |
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| DaemonFC | to the point that 2+ years later KDE 3 is still being carried in some distros | Feb 09 10:57 |
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| oiaohm_ | wrecking ball at the request of corprates. DaemonFC | Feb 09 10:57 |
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| sebsebseb | latest PC Linux OS is still using KDE 3 by default as far as I know | Feb 09 10:58 |
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| sebsebseb | ,but the next one will have KDE 4 instead | Feb 09 10:58 |
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| DaemonFC | I don't see why they'd junk an entire DE that almost always worked well when they could have just done some non-invasive surgery on problem areas | Feb 09 10:58 |
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| oiaohm_ | Not possiable DaemonFC | Feb 09 10:58 |
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| sebsebseb | DaemonFC indeed they could have changed KDE 3 here and there, instead of just replaceing it | Feb 09 10:58 |
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| oiaohm_ | you never been in the core code of KDE 3.5. DaemonFC | Feb 09 10:59 |
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| oiaohm_ | There were over 8 layers of hacks that are nuked with the new API's in KDE 4 DaemonFC | Feb 09 10:59 |
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| sebsebseb | DaemonFC they could also do that whilst having KDE 4 for those who want it | Feb 09 10:59 |
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| sebsebseb | then stop doing KDE 3 in a few years or so | Feb 09 10:59 |
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| oiaohm_ | Did KDE 3. support stop straight as KDE 4 was release no. | Feb 09 11:00 |
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| oiaohm_ | It has kept support sebsebseb | Feb 09 11:00 |
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| DaemonFC | Well, I don't think they should have even called it 4.0 until it was at the point it is now | Feb 09 11:00 |
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| sebsebseb | oiaohm_ no I think upstream have stopped KDE 3, and if not only security updates | Feb 09 11:00 |
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| DaemonFC | calling something stable when it crashes all the time and has less features than the last version gets you a bad reputation | Feb 09 11:00 |
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| *amarsh04 has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) | Feb 09 11:00 |
| oiaohm_ | sebsebseb: KDE 3 due to it hacks there is no more room to add new features without risking major stablity problems.. | Feb 09 11:01 |
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| sebsebseb | KDE 4.4 is out apparntly well not tryed that, but I guess even in that one, certain good features are lacking that were in KDE 3 | Feb 09 11:01 |
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| sebsebseb | well there's a ppa for it for later Ubuntu's or remix CD, and only like one guy is doing that | Feb 09 11:02 |
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| oiaohm_ | DaemonFC: 4.0 was never called stable not by the developers. But you are right. 4.0 and 4.1 really should not have existed without beta tags. | Feb 09 11:02 |
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| DaemonFC | and another thing, KDE 3.0 wasn't painful for KDE 2 users | Feb 09 11:02 |
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| sebsebseb | anyway screw KDE except for some of it's apps in Gnome :D | Feb 09 11:03 |
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| sebsebseb | KDE 4 is more geek to customize than KDE 3 | Feb 09 11:03 |
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| sebsebseb | and by a long way | Feb 09 11:03 |
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| sebsebseb | from my experience | Feb 09 11:03 |
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| sebsebseb | can't just change the background easilly | Feb 09 11:03 |
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| sebsebseb | like Gnome | Feb 09 11:03 |
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| sebsebseb | etc | Feb 09 11:03 |
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| sebsebseb | can't just moe icons around on the panel at the botom etc | Feb 09 11:04 |
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| DaemonFC | well, I really hope that for the sake of KDE users that KDE 4 is a solid platform and they don't turn it into spaghetti code, or they'll have to go through this again in 6-8 years | Feb 09 11:04 |
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| -BNtwitter/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] #EFF Defends #VoIP ; #Google , #Apple , and #BlackDuck Stifle Progress; #Microsoft Joins #RPX http://ur1.ca/lvqd | Feb 09 11:04 |
| phIRCe-BNc | Title: Patents Roundup: EFF Defends VoIP; Google, Apple, and Black Duck Stifle Progress; Microsoft Joins RPX | Boycott Novell .::. Size~: 102.96 KB | Feb 09 11:04 |
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| sebsebseb | DaemonFC what do you use? | Feb 09 11:04 |
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| DaemonFC | GNOME | Feb 09 11:04 |
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| sebsebseb | also what do you use oiaohm_ ? | Feb 09 11:04 |
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| oiaohm_ | What is right click on desktop. Select desktop settings change background too hard ? sebsebseb | Feb 09 11:04 |
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| sebsebseb | oiaohm_ that's what Gnome is like | Feb 09 11:05 |
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| sebsebseb | ,but KDE 4 no | Feb 09 11:05 |
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| oiaohm_ | KDE 4.3 at moment. sebsebseb | Feb 09 11:05 |
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| sebsebseb | when I tried | Feb 09 11:05 |
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| oiaohm_ | KDE 4.3 it there. sebsebseb | Feb 09 11:05 |
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| DaemonFC | GNOME is modular, major features can be added or replaced without the user ever having to know anything except "This is working better for some reason" | Feb 09 11:05 |
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| DaemonFC | at least, during the years I've used it, that's been my impression | Feb 09 11:05 |
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| sebsebseb | Gnome is really easy to customize | Feb 09 11:05 |
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| sebsebseb | unlike KDE 4 | Feb 09 11:05 |
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| oiaohm_ | Depend on what KDE version number sebsebseb | Feb 09 11:06 |
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| sebsebseb | I think it was 4.3 | Feb 09 11:06 |
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| sebsebseb | anyway screw KDE | Feb 09 11:06 |
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| oiaohm_ | KDE 4.3 is basically as simple as Gnome. | Feb 09 11:06 |
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| sebsebseb | I used to really hate KDE 4 as well | Feb 09 11:06 |
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| oiaohm_ | I have used both. | Feb 09 11:06 |
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| sebsebseb | untill they made it a bit more like KDE 3 | Feb 09 11:06 |
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| oiaohm_ | Each version it gets more like KDE 3 | Feb 09 11:06 |
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| sebsebseb | hate is a strong word so dislike | Feb 09 11:06 |
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| oiaohm_ | KDE 4.4 more of KDE 3.5 features are back. | Feb 09 11:06 |
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| oiaohm_ | Its more the time to port them. | Feb 09 11:07 |
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| -BNi/#boycottnovell-[satipera/@satipera] Iran works with international law and informs the IAEA of enrichment to 20%. It is still presented in the west as an Iranian infraction. | Feb 09 11:07 |
| DaemonFC | a lot of projects have this idea that they're going to integrate everything to where you can't work one something without stepping on something else | Feb 09 11:07 |
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| DaemonFC | thats where KDE and the original Mozilla Suite came from | Feb 09 11:07 |
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| DaemonFC | it's what Windows does | Feb 09 11:07 |
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| sebsebseb | DaemonFC what do you mean? | Feb 09 11:08 |
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| DaemonFC | *on | Feb 09 11:08 |
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| DaemonFC | sebsebseb, Microsoft can't get rid of IE or improve it, or make is better without wrecking thousands of Windows apps that embed it | Feb 09 11:08 |
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| DaemonFC | one example | Feb 09 11:08 |
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| sebsebseb | backwards compatability | Feb 09 11:09 |
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| DaemonFC | IE is part of the Windows platform, frozen APIs, you change how IE works because of some major security problem like the one just found and you break everything | Feb 09 11:09 |
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| DaemonFC | Linux itself has a no stable API/ABI policy because of just such problems | Feb 09 11:10 |
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| oiaohm_ | KDE 4.0 is KDE developers drawing a line in the sand. | Feb 09 11:10 |
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| oiaohm_ | The kernel has a stable API/ABI policy DaemonFC | Feb 09 11:10 |
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| DaemonFC | they could freeze some now and developers might be happy, but then if security problems come forth years later, Linus can't fix the problem without breaking drivers | Feb 09 11:10 |
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| oiaohm_ | Really the driver issue is far more complex than what most people want to be trueful about. | Feb 09 11:11 |
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| oiaohm_ | syscalls of Linux can be used in Linux kernel space. | Feb 09 11:11 |
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| oiaohm_ | People love to forget that. | Feb 09 11:11 |
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| oiaohm_ | Those are complier netural. Internal API's of the Linux kernel are complier dependant. | Feb 09 11:12 |
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| DaemonFC | Greg K-H wrote a paper about it once | Feb 09 11:12 |
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| DaemonFC | http://scienceblogs.com/gregladen/2007/12/linux_stable_api_vs_not.php | Feb 09 11:12 |
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| phIRCe-BNc | Title: Linux: Stable API vs. Not? : Greg Laden's Blog .::. Size~: 89.06 KB | Feb 09 11:12 |
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| DaemonFC | "You think you want a stable kernel interface, but you really do not, and you don't even know it." | Feb 09 11:12 |
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| oiaohm_ | There are internal api's inside windows that windows driver developers are not allowed to touch either. | Feb 09 11:13 |
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| oiaohm_ | Just linux ones look so nice and inviting because closed source driver developers can see them. And the open source drivers get to short cut around having to use intermedit layers to sort out differences between compliers. | Feb 09 11:14 |
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| DaemonFC | yeah, the problem is that Linux is open source and can't hide them, and that Linux has no method of stopping them from being used | Feb 09 11:15 |
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| DaemonFC | Microsoft can refuse to sign the driver and BAM, you're finished | Feb 09 11:15 |
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| oiaohm_ | Really Linux does have a way. | Feb 09 11:15 |
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| oiaohm_ | Have you notice the Linux kernel will refuse to load a driver build with the wrong gcc. | Feb 09 11:16 |
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| oiaohm_ | Even if the kernel version is right. | Feb 09 11:16 |
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| oiaohm_ | Linux has made it insanely hard to load a driver doing the wrong thing. Very few companies have even been able todo it. | Feb 09 11:16 |
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| DaemonFC | yeah, you can override that though when you build the kernel | Feb 09 11:17 |
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| oiaohm_ | Yet if you do. | Feb 09 11:17 |
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| oiaohm_ | Some of the modules interfacing with the kernel from time to time will cause kernel panics. | Feb 09 11:18 |
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| oiaohm_ | So its not worth you doing. | Feb 09 11:18 |
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| DaemonFC | and the whole system goes down | Feb 09 11:18 |
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| DaemonFC | woohoo | Feb 09 11:18 |
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| oiaohm_ | So all distributions ship with it on. | Feb 09 11:18 |
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| oiaohm_ | This is why Nvidia binary closed source and ATI closed source have to run a build interface parts each time. | Feb 09 11:19 |
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| DaemonFC | because it just wouldn't pay for one of them to say "Fuck it, let's switch it off to let all this old drivers work!" | Feb 09 11:19 |
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| oiaohm_ | Otherwise they will not load. | Feb 09 11:19 |
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| oiaohm_ | If they turn it off they have stacks of users complaining about broken so yes it does not pay at all DaemonFC | Feb 09 11:20 |
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| DaemonFC | ATI needs to do something about FGLRX | Feb 09 11:20 |
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| cubezzz | could the nvidia driver be unloaded and say the nouveau driver loaded without rebooting? | Feb 09 11:20 |
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| DaemonFC | there has to be a way to make it less hell on wheels than it is | Feb 09 11:20 |
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| oiaohm_ | In time no cubezzz | Feb 09 11:21 |
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| DaemonFC | cubezzz, ATI's FGLRX allows you to load it alongside "radeon" | Feb 09 11:21 |
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| oiaohm_ | Reason framebuffer you text mode will be depending on nouveau running. | Feb 09 11:21 |
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| oiaohm_ | FGLRX has been altered to be compadible with the in kernel memory mangement of card DaemonFC | Feb 09 11:22 |
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| oiaohm_ | So there is compadiblity between the open source and closed. DaemonFC | Feb 09 11:22 |
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| oiaohm_ | Nvidia on the other hand does not work hand and hand with nouveau so is going to run into problems. | Feb 09 11:22 |
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| oiaohm_ | The simplest way to remove the complete driver hell on wheels is the closed source drivers accept being locked to the syscall interface. DaemonFC | Feb 09 11:24 |
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| DaemonFC | well, any time you can get rid of a blob.... that's probably the only thing holding me back from another Nvidia card | Feb 09 11:24 |
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| DaemonFC | soon enough the open source stack will work with my Radeon and I'd still be in binary hell with Nvidia | Feb 09 11:24 |
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| oiaohm_ | Most likely Nvidia driver with binary module in center no longer work. | Feb 09 11:25 |
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| oiaohm_ | Due to nouveau getting to card first. DaemonFC | Feb 09 11:25 |
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| oiaohm_ | The tidy up of the Linux video stack basically is forcing closed source parts of drivers into userspace for graphical. | Feb 09 11:25 |
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| DaemonFC | yeah, I wasn't really pleased with the Nouveau performance in the driver that shipped with Fedora 11 | Feb 09 11:26 |
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| DaemonFC | slow even on 2d, no 3d support at all | Feb 09 11:26 |
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| DaemonFC | it's something they can toss in there that's better than nv, and that's all | Feb 09 11:26 |
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| amarsh04 | I've been impressed with the current radeon / dri2 / mesa stack... just under 1000 fps in glxgears with the onboard radeon3200hd and it is well-behaved with extremetuxracer, tuxkart, billard-gl and the like | Feb 09 11:26 |
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| DaemonFC | glxgears is not a benchmark | Feb 09 11:26 |
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| DaemonFC | B-) | Feb 09 11:26 |
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| DaemonFC | amarsh04, Also, it only reported 64 OpenGL extensions | Feb 09 11:27 |
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| amarsh04 | well, extremetuxracer and tuxkart are playable (-: | Feb 09 11:27 |
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| amarsh04 | haven't counted them myself | Feb 09 11:27 |
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| DaemonFC | amarsh04, FGRLX provides 81 :) | Feb 09 11:28 |
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| oiaohm_ | DaemonFC: you can really see the difference between a support driver and not supported. | Feb 09 11:28 |
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| DaemonFC | full OpenGL 3.2 and shaders support | Feb 09 11:28 |
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| DaemonFC | I might switch when Mesa 7.8 is out if it does what I need it to | Feb 09 11:29 |
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| DaemonFC | I may have to wait for 8.0 | Feb 09 11:29 |
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| oiaohm_ | http://nouveau.freedesktop.org/wiki/FrontPage << End of DRI 1 support. | Feb 09 11:29 |
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| phIRCe-BNc | Title: nouveau Wiki - FrontPage .::. Size~: 36.54 KB | Feb 09 11:29 |
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| oiaohm_ | In time ATI will as well. DaemonFC | Feb 09 11:29 |
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| DaemonFC | Yeah, I'm not loving the DRI 1 driver | Feb 09 11:29 |
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| DaemonFC | but it has better OpenGL support | Feb 09 11:29 |
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| oiaohm_ | Remember once the drivers are all pure DRI2 memory management is kernel space. | Feb 09 11:30 |
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| DaemonFC | http://cgit.freedesktop.org/mesa/mesa/log/ | Feb 09 11:30 |
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| phIRCe-BNc | Title: mesa/mesa - The Mesa 3D Graphics Library .::. Size~: 24.77 KB | Feb 09 11:30 |
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| DaemonFC | is that what to watch? | Feb 09 11:30 |
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| oiaohm_ | That has some of the good news. | Feb 09 11:31 |
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| oiaohm_ | Ie llvm support for shader optimisation in. | Feb 09 11:31 |
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| oiaohm_ | Some stuff like nouveau opengl support is still in a different branch to main mesa DaemonFC | Feb 09 11:32 |
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| oiaohm_ | And via stuff is still also in a independant branch DaemonFC | Feb 09 11:33 |
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| oiaohm_ | So intel and ATI status and old stuff is there. DaemonFC | Feb 09 11:33 |
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| oiaohm_ | DaemonFC: start of evergreen support is under way for ATI | Feb 09 11:35 |
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| -BNi/#boycottnovell-[satipera/@satipera] The son of NYT Jerusalem bureau chief decides to join the IDF instead of US Military. http://is.gd/80b53 #israel #occupation #palestine | Feb 09 11:42 |
| phIRCe-BNc | Title: ei: New York Times fails to disclose Jerusalem bureau chief's conflict of interest .::. Size~: 27.61 KB | Feb 09 11:42 |
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| -BNtwitter/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] “Pinta” comes from #Novell staff and software #patents tax (on SLE*) comes from #Microsoft in the form of vouchers http://ur1.ca/lvym | Feb 09 11:46 |
| phIRCe-BNc | Title: More Mono and Patent Poison from Novell | Boycott Novell .::. Size~: 92.73 KB | Feb 09 11:46 |
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| -BNtwitter/#boycottnovell-[_goblin] Ive been accused of trolling on my own blog....go figure...reason why? I dare to give MY opinion of Mono and its apps #mono #linux #foss | Feb 09 11:56 |
| oiaohm_ | http://www.openluna.org/index.php There are getting some very warped open source projects out there. | Feb 09 11:56 |
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| phIRCe-BNc | Title: Open Luna Foundation .::. Size~: 14.69 KB | Feb 09 11:56 |
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| -BNtwitter/#boycottnovell-[_goblin] I'd love to look at the concept of "self trolling" more closely but I have work.... :( I'll look at it when I return... | Feb 09 11:57 |
| *Diablo-D3 (~diablo@pool-64-222-232-11.port.east.myfairpoint.net) has joined #boycottnovell | Feb 09 12:14 |
| -BNtwitter/#boycottnovell-[zoobab] Members of European Parliament request ACTA documents under the Lisbon Treaty article 218 "Parliament fully informed": http://i5.be/asa | Feb 09 12:21 |
| phIRCe-BNc | Title: Digital rights: Members of European Parliaments ask when they will receive the ACTA documents .::. Size~: 30.65 KB | Feb 09 12:21 |
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| oiaohm_ | wonder how long until someone gets warped in a court case. | Feb 09 12:24 |
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| *kecskebak (~kecskebak@dsl4E5CCD76.pool.t-online.hu) has joined #boycottnovell | Feb 09 12:24 |
| oiaohm_ | Ie cannot give document to other party in case because it protected by Digital Rights Management | Feb 09 12:25 |
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| zoobab | who is Ie? | Feb 09 12:26 |
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| -BNtwitter/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] #Microsoft wants to make the #medical records and management of patients a lot more dependent on #Windows http://ur1.ca/lw2k | Feb 09 12:31 |
| phIRCe-BNc | Title: Microsofts Hostile Takeover of the Healthcare System | Boycott Novell .::. Size~: 90.18 KB | Feb 09 12:31 |
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| oiaohm_ | No person zoobab example. | Feb 09 12:31 |
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| oiaohm_ | http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20100208/ap_on_hi_te/us_tec_crypto_chip_cracked Old rules of physical access still apply | Feb 09 12:32 |
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| phIRCe-BNc | Title: Security chip that does encryption in PCs hacked - Yahoo! News .::. Size~: 107.18 KB | Feb 09 12:32 |
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| Diablo-D3 | oiaohm_: if it exists, it can be hacked? | Feb 09 12:40 |
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| Diablo-D3 | :D | Feb 09 12:40 |
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| oiaohm_ | Only as long as you can get physical access. | Feb 09 12:41 |
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| Diablo-D3 | even that isnt true. | Feb 09 12:42 |
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| oiaohm_ | If it would self destruct or something could be near impossiable. Diablo-D3 | Feb 09 12:42 |
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| Diablo-D3 | self destruction is still an unwanted action. | Feb 09 12:42 |
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| oiaohm_ | Ie catch up with a deep space probe that is flat to modify it. Even that it exists hacking it with current day tech is kinda not possiable. Ie we don't have the tech to catch it. | Feb 09 12:44 |
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| Diablo-D3 | not yet | Feb 09 12:48 |
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| oiaohm_ | Not for a while yet. | Feb 09 12:49 |
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| DaemonFC | DRM is stupid to even try to use for just that reason | Feb 09 13:06 |
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| DaemonFC | people have access to the file, it's only a matter of time before it's reverse engineered or worked around | Feb 09 13:06 |
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| DaemonFC | maybe if 99.9% of users would never be able to crack it, then you only have to worry about 1 in 1000 people being able to crack it | Feb 09 13:08 |
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| DaemonFC | and there were millions of DRM'd iTunes files out there | Feb 09 13:08 |
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| Diablo-D3 | besides, no one wants to hack a deep space probe | Feb 09 13:08 |
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| Diablo-D3 | its not like you can host child porn on it or something | Feb 09 13:08 |
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| Diablo-D3 | IP cant handle extreme lag anyhow | Feb 09 13:09 |
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| Diablo-D3 | it starts to massively fuck up when you have more than about 10 seconds | Feb 09 13:09 |
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| DaemonFC | Diablo-D3, Sure you'd want to hack it | Feb 09 13:09 |
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| DaemonFC | how else would you bring its phasers and photon torpedoes online? :) | Feb 09 13:09 |
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| *jweyrich (~none@201-40-146-48.nhoce701.dsl.brasiltelecom.net.br) has joined #boycottnovell | Feb 09 13:09 |
| DaemonFC | changing the subject, I'd like to know how FreeBSD is getting such an overhaul | Feb 09 13:11 |
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| DaemonFC | of course in some ways this only brings it on par with Linux 2.6 (the mmap() extensions finally being good enough for a 64-bit Nvidia driver) | Feb 09 13:12 |
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| oiaohm_ | BSD is used in embedded devices as well. DaemonFC even more fun some developers submit code to both FreeBSD and Linux. | Feb 09 13:16 |
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| Diablo-D3 | oiaohm_: as a reminder, virtually everyone here has DaemonFC on ignore | Feb 09 13:19 |
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| DaemonFC | as a reminder, Diablo-D3 is a megalomaniac and is actually referring to himself and hoping people I pay attention to will follow him | Feb 09 13:21 |
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| DaemonFC | :) | Feb 09 13:21 |
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| sebsebseb | Not sure why she is doing an article about Ubuntu 9.10 and Gnome 2 now, seems a bit late to me, anyway good read: http://www.linuxplanet.com/linuxplanet/reviews/6976/1/ Also here's a comment http://www.linuxtoday.com/news_story.php3?ltsn=2010-02-08-023-35-RV-GN-UB-0000 | Feb 09 13:30 |
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| phIRCe-BNc | Title: Linux Today - Ubuntu 9.10 and GNOME 2.28: Advancing Past Meh .::. Size~: 74.55 KB | Feb 09 13:30 |
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| sebsebseb | http://www.linuxplanet.com/linuxplanet/reviews/6976/1/ | Feb 09 13:31 |
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| DaemonFC | sebsebseb, Ubuntu 10.04 is mostly plumbing as far as I can tell | Feb 09 13:31 |
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| sebsebseb | What do you mean mostly plumbing? | Feb 09 13:31 |
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| DaemonFC | nothing drastic ends up in an LTS | Feb 09 13:31 |
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| sebsebseb | newer kernel | Feb 09 13:31 |
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| sebsebseb | social features | Feb 09 13:31 |
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| DaemonFC | low level stuff that nobody sees | Feb 09 13:31 |
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| sebsebseb | something about a music store | Feb 09 13:31 |
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| sebsebseb | oh this one they plan to have Facebook and Twitter features | Feb 09 13:32 |
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| DaemonFC | yeah, low risk stuff too, not likely to break stuff | Feb 09 13:32 |
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| sebsebseb | as in edits to Gnome | Feb 09 13:32 |
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| DaemonFC | sebsebseb, It's why they hurried and moved all the important stuff off of HAL in 9.10 | Feb 09 13:32 |
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| sebsebseb | anyway alpha 3 is Feb 25th and I am looking forward to trying it | Feb 09 13:32 |
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| sebsebseb | since it should be feature complete or pretty much feature complete | Feb 09 13:32 |
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| DaemonFC | gives them time to know if that breaks things before the LTS | Feb 09 13:32 |
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| sebsebseb | no HAL at all in 10.04 that's also the plan | Feb 09 13:33 |
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| DaemonFC | right | Feb 09 13:33 |
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| sebsebseb | and yes indeed 9.10 is basically a test/ experiment | Feb 09 13:33 |
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| sebsebseb | try stuff release before the LTS | Feb 09 13:33 |
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| sebsebseb | which would explain why Grub 2 and GDM got introduced | Feb 09 13:33 |
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| sebsebseb | as default's | Feb 09 13:33 |
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| DaemonFC | I might stay on the LTS this time | Feb 09 13:33 |
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| sebsebseb | and the default Ext4 for clean installs as well | Feb 09 13:33 |
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| sebsebseb | DaemonFC your on Ubuntu now? | Feb 09 13:34 |
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| DaemonFC | yeah, they cram major stuff into the 6 month releases | Feb 09 13:34 |
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| DaemonFC | yep | Feb 09 13:34 |
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| sebsebseb | I might keep the other computer on 10.04 untill it's no longer supported or untill the next LTS | Feb 09 13:34 |
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| DaemonFC | you really make things easier on yourself by having /home mounted on its own partition | Feb 09 13:34 |
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| sebsebseb | yes I know about seperate /home | Feb 09 13:34 |
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| sebsebseb | don't think I bothered though when I re instaleld last time on other computer, since not really needed there | Feb 09 13:35 |
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| DaemonFC | it's also hard to manage that with XFS too | Feb 09 13:35 |
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| sebsebseb | Gnome 3 well there should be a ppa for 10.04 around the time it comes out | Feb 09 13:35 |
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| DaemonFC | can't shrink the partition later of / starts running low | Feb 09 13:35 |
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| DaemonFC | *if | Feb 09 13:35 |
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| sebsebseb | and since Ubuntu are starting to add even more stuff I don't want, probably a good idea to stay on 10.04 | Feb 09 13:36 |
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| sebsebseb | I don't want those social features myself, but | Feb 09 13:36 |
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| sebsebseb | my older brother uses that install at the moment here and there, and well he might find them usefl | Feb 09 13:36 |
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| sebsebseb | useful | Feb 09 13:36 |
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| sebsebseb | as for Firefox we can keep that up to date our self | Feb 09 13:37 |
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| DaemonFC | bling is just useless crap most of the time, but new kernel, GNOME, and everything else is what tempts me | Feb 09 13:37 |
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| sebsebseb | yeah plymouth for boot up | Feb 09 13:37 |
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| sebsebseb | I already got there on this computer with Mandriva | Feb 09 13:37 |
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| sebsebseb | and oh it's rather nice | Feb 09 13:37 |
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| sebsebseb | already got that above | Feb 09 13:37 |
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| sebsebseb | if 10.04's is like Mandriva's boot up, I will be happy | Feb 09 13:38 |
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| sebsebseb | if not hrm | Feb 09 13:38 |
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| sebsebseb | anyway alpha 3 not that long to go now :D | Feb 09 13:38 |
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| DaemonFC | Mandriva is just weird lately, sticking to HAL, sticking to Grub Legacy, not moving to Upstart | Feb 09 13:38 |
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| oiaohm_ | Really I am more interest to see what distribution gets lvm snapshots working perfectly. | Feb 09 13:38 |
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| DaemonFC | I keep figuring they'll do it, but they back out at the last minute even if it was in the spec | Feb 09 13:38 |
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| oiaohm_ | A working roll back feature will be useful at times. | Feb 09 13:39 |
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| sebsebseb | you mean Mandriva back out? | Feb 09 13:39 |
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| sebsebseb | Mandriva also have less developers | Feb 09 13:39 |
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| DaemonFC | yeah | Feb 09 13:39 |
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| sebsebseb | Ubuntu has well it's developers, but also the Debian developers | Feb 09 13:39 |
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| DaemonFC | they say in the spec they're moving to DeviceKit and don't do it, or that they're moving to GRUB 2 and Upstart, and don't | Feb 09 13:39 |
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| sebsebseb | Grub 2 sucks really | Feb 09 13:39 |
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| sebsebseb | at the moment, for loads of us | Feb 09 13:39 |
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| DaemonFC | sticking with HAL, init, and Grub Legacy makes the system harder to deal with | Feb 09 13:40 |
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| sebsebseb | surely that depends | Feb 09 13:40 |
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| sebsebseb | also it's them that's dealing with it not us? | Feb 09 13:40 |
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| DaemonFC | I never liked GRUB Legacy because it makes stupid assumptions | Feb 09 13:40 |
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| sebsebseb | what do you mean? such as? | Feb 09 13:40 |
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| DaemonFC | and it's more likely to corrupt your file system | Feb 09 13:40 |
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| sebsebseb | well apparnatly 9.10's Grub 2 you can't just use it to boot up other distros as well, because of how Ubuntu has done it | Feb 09 13:40 |
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| DaemonFC | oh, as the system boots, GRUB can make wrong assumptions about the state of the file system journal or where the first superblock is | Feb 09 13:41 |
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| DaemonFC | and totally ruin your XFS partition | Feb 09 13:41 |
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| sebsebseb | well I don't use XFS | Feb 09 13:41 |
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| sebsebseb | I nearly did once, but needed a seperate /boot | Feb 09 13:41 |
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| DaemonFC | its been known to corrupt ext3 | Feb 09 13:41 |
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| sebsebseb | so I was like nah | Feb 09 13:41 |
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| DaemonFC | the ext4 support is the same hacks that let it boot up XFS | Feb 09 13:42 |
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| DaemonFC | you should be scared to use Ext4 and GRUB Legacy | Feb 09 13:42 |
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| sebsebseb | worked fine for me with 9.04 | Feb 09 13:42 |
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| DaemonFC | that's why Fedora 11 still made you have /boot on Ext3 even if / was on Ext4 | Feb 09 13:42 |
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| sebsebseb | 9.04 is the one where Ext4 is a bit hrm | Feb 09 13:43 |
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| sebsebseb | since the kernel and such or whatever | Feb 09 13:43 |
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| DaemonFC | Eric Sandeen doesn't trust grub legacy and that's good enough for me | Feb 09 13:43 |
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| sebsebseb | anyway I didn't get any problems :) | Feb 09 13:43 |
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| sebsebseb | did it on this one for quite a while, but also the other computer for quite a while | Feb 09 13:43 |
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| sebsebseb | in fact that one would still be 9.04 with Ext4, if the whole hard disk didn't get completly re done | Feb 09 13:44 |
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| DaemonFC | Well, Ubuntu backported some of the data loss patches back into their kernel 2.6.28 | Feb 09 13:44 |
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| sebsebseb | ,because of how XP on there messed up big time | Feb 09 13:44 |
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| sebsebseb | a virus or something | Feb 09 13:44 |
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| DaemonFC | I don't trust Ext4 because there's still data loss issues | Feb 09 13:44 |
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| sebsebseb | well Google have gone from or are about to go from Ext2 to Ext4 | Feb 09 13:44 |
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| sebsebseb | however they have also hired the lead Ext4 developer | Feb 09 13:44 |
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| DaemonFC | yeah, and Google has uninterruptible power supplies | Feb 09 13:45 |
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| sebsebseb | what do you mean uninterupitble power supplies? | Feb 09 13:46 |
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| DaemonFC | keeps the systems up long enough to cleanly shut down if the power goes out | Feb 09 13:46 |
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| sebsebseb | oh | Feb 09 13:46 |
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| DaemonFC | if you have an unclean shutdown, not all of your computer shuts off at once :) | Feb 09 13:46 |
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| sebsebseb | oh | Feb 09 13:47 |
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| sebsebseb | ? | Feb 09 13:47 |
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| oiaohm_ | Little different to that. | Feb 09 13:47 |
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| DaemonFC | the voltage decreases on the 5 and 12 V rails in the power supply | Feb 09 13:47 |
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| oiaohm_ | Google has a back up battery directly connect to motherboard. | Feb 09 13:47 |
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| DaemonFC | your hard drive is writing the garbage to the file system that the malfunctioning RAM is sending to it | Feb 09 13:48 |
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| oiaohm_ | When you are a big as google you can order custom boards with that feature. | Feb 09 13:48 |
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| DaemonFC | for a couple hundred ms | Feb 09 13:48 |
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| sebsebseb | ms? | Feb 09 13:48 |
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| DaemonFC | it's enough to fuck over some of your data up to and including the entire file system | Feb 09 13:48 |
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| DaemonFC | milliseconds | Feb 09 13:48 |
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| oiaohm_ | Ext4 has a few different operation modes. | Feb 09 13:48 |
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| sebsebseb | ok, but turning the computer off using the power button is ok? | Feb 09 13:49 |
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| oiaohm_ | The default is slightly risky. | Feb 09 13:49 |
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| DaemonFC | ext3 doesn't have delayed allocation or extents, so it's safer | Feb 09 13:49 |
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| sebsebseb | I mean don't shut down the computer using the OS, but turn it off using the power button | Feb 09 13:49 |
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| sebsebseb | that's ok? | Feb 09 13:49 |
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| oiaohm_ | delayed allocation can be disabled. DaemonFC | Feb 09 13:49 |
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| DaemonFC | ext4 trades a lot of reliability for some performance | Feb 09 13:49 |
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| DaemonFC | real fast but it might lose your data | Feb 09 13:49 |
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| oiaohm_ | Only if you leave it on default settings DaemonFC | Feb 09 13:49 |
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| oiaohm_ | Ext4 does not have to be any more risky than ext3 | Feb 09 13:50 |
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| DaemonFC | if you want to just push your hard drive performance, you can build ReiserFS v4 | Feb 09 13:53 |
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| DaemonFC | I think I'd still like to see Reiser 4 more than BtrFS | Feb 09 13:53 |
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| DaemonFC | but they only merge big corporate stuff | Feb 09 13:53 |
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| DaemonFC | If some random guy walked up and asked Linus to merge JFS or XFS, he wouldn't do it | Feb 09 13:54 |
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| DaemonFC | he only did ReiserFS cause Suse was pushing it per default and ext3 didn't exist for another year | Feb 09 13:54 |
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| oiaohm_ | Linux kernel has merged a lot of non corporate stuff. | Feb 09 13:55 |
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| DaemonFC | the only things that end up merged are things from billion dollar companies or stuff originated within the high level Linux developers | Feb 09 13:55 |
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| oiaohm_ | Reiserfs 4 is having to have many alterations . | Feb 09 13:55 |
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| oiaohm_ | It presumed functions under it would lock for it. | Feb 09 13:56 |
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| DaemonFC | if Reiser 4 ever gets merged, I'll eat my hat. There's every kind of conspiracy as to why it's not, but I still think it's better than any fs they have merged so far | Feb 09 13:56 |
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| oiaohm_ | So as BKL has been removed from a lot of areas. Lot of bugs have been turning up. | Feb 09 13:56 |
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| oiaohm_ | Even the old Reiser has the same coding design error DaemonFC | Feb 09 13:56 |
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| DaemonFC | yeah, they've fixed it kind of :) | Feb 09 13:57 |
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| -BNi/#boycottnovell-[satipera/@satipera] Microsoft sucker British Library into more cooperation. http://is.gd/80BUH | Feb 09 13:57 |
| phIRCe-BNc | Title: Microsoft And British Library Develop Open Source Research Tool - News - eWeekEurope.co.uk .::. Size~: 24.47 KB | Feb 09 13:57 |
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| oiaohm_ | It still jack knifing as more BLK are being removed. DaemonFC | Feb 09 13:57 |
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| DaemonFC | the most painful part of using ReiserFS v3 is the fsck every boot | Feb 09 13:57 |
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| oiaohm_ | Old Raiserfs playing up is being enough to keep ReiserFS 4 off the table until the BKL and other locking fixes are complete. | Feb 09 13:58 |
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| DaemonFC | XFS is really the best file system in Linux right now and the biggest problem with it is that it was designed for better hardware than a PC, and that it has special reliability features that depend on IRIX and SGI servers and workstations | Feb 09 13:59 |
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| oiaohm_ | Yep some arm and ppc chips running Linux suit it better. | Feb 09 13:59 |
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| DaemonFC | it's not even that | Feb 09 14:01 |
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| -BNtwitter/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] #SteveBallmer Visits #Obama Once Again as Fight Against #Google Continues http://ur1.ca/lwam | Feb 09 14:01 |
| phIRCe-BNc | Title: Steve Ballmer Visits Obama Once Again as His Fight Against Google Continues | Boycott Novell .::. Size~: 104.16 KB | Feb 09 14:01 |
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| DaemonFC | SGI boxes had hardened PSUs that detected power outages and told IRIX and kept the system going long enough for IRIX to go "OH SHIT!! KILL THE pending I/O NOW!!!!" | Feb 09 14:02 |
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| DaemonFC | and Linux on a PC can't do that | Feb 09 14:02 |
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| -BNi/#boycottnovell-[sagarun/@sagarun] My frnd who works for #infosys has just sent me a well designed html email that reads "job openings at #hcl" from his infy mailid #irony :P | Feb 09 14:02 |
| oiaohm_ | On PPC and ARM Yes some board can do that. | Feb 09 14:02 |
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| DaemonFC | and that's why XFS had so many data loss issues when it was first ported to Linux PCs | Feb 09 14:02 |
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| MinceR | UPSes can do that | Feb 09 14:03 |
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| oiaohm_ | Ie the low power eat of PPC and ARM allows them to even be better. | Feb 09 14:03 |
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| MinceR | and there's no excuse for trashing data the way XFS does | Feb 09 14:03 |
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| DaemonFC | MinceR, XFS was developed for better systems than it runs on in Linux | Feb 09 14:04 |
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| oiaohm_ | Supper caps on motherboard can hold them up and operational even if power supply has left the building. | Feb 09 14:04 |
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| DaemonFC | and it doesn't have unreasonable probability of data loss now relative to Ext4 ;) | Feb 09 14:04 |
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| oiaohm_ | Linux is designed for everything from supper good hardware to crap. DaemonFC | Feb 09 14:04 |
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| MinceR | DaemonFC: doesn't matter how good the systems it was developed for, it's crap | Feb 09 14:04 |
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| MinceR | DaemonFC: any system can break down without being able to write to the hard drive. | Feb 09 14:04 |
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| MinceR | DaemonFC: like i said, there's no excuse for trashing data the way XFS does | Feb 09 14:05 |
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| DaemonFC | that must be why Ext4 is slower, makes 10% of my disk off limits to me, and loses data more often | Feb 09 14:05 |
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| -BNtwitter/#boycottnovell-[zoobab] European Parliament not transparent "This verbatim report is not an official record, only the video is the authentic" http://i5.be/asd | Feb 09 14:05 |
| DaemonFC | Ext4 is crap | Feb 09 14:05 |
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| MinceR | ext4 was developed along stupid notions | Feb 09 14:05 |
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| MinceR | it's crap | Feb 09 14:05 |
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| DaemonFC | XFS is more or less par | Feb 09 14:05 |
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| oiaohm_ | Ext4 defaults are crap. | Feb 09 14:05 |
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| oiaohm_ | Core filesystem is not too bad. | Feb 09 14:06 |
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| DaemonFC | XFS gave Ext4 some guidelines for just how much it should fuck-up to outdo XFS | Feb 09 14:06 |
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| DaemonFC | that's my opinion anyway | Feb 09 14:06 |
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| MinceR | well, now it can be kind of hacked into being a little less crap | Feb 09 14:06 |
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| DaemonFC | and Ext4 manages to do that | Feb 09 14:06 |
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| MinceR | i don't see any point to it, since there's ext3 | Feb 09 14:06 |
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| oiaohm_ | Ext4 supports larger drives than ext3 | Feb 09 14:06 |
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| MinceR | and iirc ext3 outperforms ext4 when the latter uses supposedly safe settings | Feb 09 14:06 |
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| DaemonFC | if you want to use the kinds of features in Ext4, you should go with XFS | Feb 09 14:06 |
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| oiaohm_ | Not really DaemonFC | Feb 09 14:07 |
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| DaemonFC | get something that's faster, and hammered down for years before Ext4 even existed | Feb 09 14:07 |
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| oiaohm_ | XFS is fast but it does have it bugs. | Feb 09 14:07 |
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| oiaohm_ | Like zeroing out files. | Feb 09 14:07 |
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| MinceR | so does ext4 | Feb 09 14:07 |
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| oiaohm_ | Guess where ext4 got the idea that zeroing out files was fine | Feb 09 14:07 |
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| DaemonFC | oiaohm_, XFS in Linux in 2001 is very different from XFS in Linux in 2010 | Feb 09 14:08 |
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| DaemonFC | there's still a lot of work being done on it | Feb 09 14:08 |
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| oiaohm_ | XFS defaults have lot of the same issues as Ext4 defaults. | Feb 09 14:08 |
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| oiaohm_ | Most people deploying either don't use there defaults. | Feb 09 14:08 |
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| DaemonFC | the XFS driver is actually shrinking, it lost a few thousand lines of code last year alone | Feb 09 14:08 |
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| DaemonFC | :) | Feb 09 14:08 |
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| oiaohm_ | Most Linux filesystem drivers are shrinking. | Feb 09 14:09 |
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| oiaohm_ | Any ideas why DaemonFC | Feb 09 14:09 |
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| DaemonFC | merging XFS specific stuff like ACL with standard Linux stuff there for all filesystems to use | Feb 09 14:09 |
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| oiaohm_ | All the old file systems had independant ACL crud and other crud DaemonFC | Feb 09 14:09 |
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| oiaohm_ | Framework clean ups. | Feb 09 14:10 |
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| DaemonFC | in many cases a lot of XFS specific stuff is being weeded out and it's now depending on the standard Linux facilities | Feb 09 14:10 |
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| oiaohm_ | Those standard Linux facilities are newish. | Feb 09 14:10 |
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| oiaohm_ | So basically if XFS filesystem did not reduce in size you could say it was bit rotting. | Feb 09 14:11 |
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| DaemonFC | better that it gets made generic where possible than maintaining a version for ever file system there is | Feb 09 14:11 |
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| DaemonFC | XFS isn't going to bit-rot any time soon | Feb 09 14:12 |
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| oiaohm_ | Last 12 months the internal layout of Linux got a lot cleaner. | Feb 09 14:12 |
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| DaemonFC | I'd say it could have as much as another 10 years left in it | Feb 09 14:12 |
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| DaemonFC | SGI's biggest fuck-ups were Windows, x86 Xeons, and of course, the Itanic | Feb 09 14:13 |
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| DaemonFC | B-) | Feb 09 14:13 |
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| DaemonFC | let Microsoft and Intel sing them a psiren song | Feb 09 14:14 |
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| oiaohm_ | Big difference between XFS and Btrfs is lack of implemenation of snapshotting in XFS | Feb 09 14:14 |
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| -BNtwitter/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] Norwegian Agency for Public Management and eGovernment Slams #Microsoft #OOXML http://ur1.ca/lwbp #odf | Feb 09 14:15 |
| phIRCe-BNc | Title: Norwegian Agency for Public Management and eGovernment Slams Microsoft OOXML | Boycott Novell .::. Size~: 87.36 KB | Feb 09 14:15 |
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| MinceR | what did SGI do about those? | Feb 09 14:15 |
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| oiaohm_ | So snapshoting a XFS you have to pause the filesystem. Btrfs can do it on fly. DaemonFC | Feb 09 14:15 |
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| DaemonFC | MinceR, They axed them after a few years of taking a bath as I recall | Feb 09 14:16 |
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| DaemonFC | IRIX never got ported to x86 | Feb 09 14:16 |
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| MinceR | what did SGI do about winblows? | Feb 09 14:16 |
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| DaemonFC | got rid of them | Feb 09 14:16 |
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| DaemonFC | MinceR, The whole point of Microsoft and Intel doping SGI was to make MIPS + IRIX less credible | Feb 09 14:17 |
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| DaemonFC | so they asked SGI to shoot themselves in the foot, and they did :) | Feb 09 14:17 |
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| DaemonFC | IRIX wasn't a bad system | Feb 09 14:18 |
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| DaemonFC | it had Quake III Arena on it | Feb 09 14:18 |
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| MinceR | ic | Feb 09 14:18 |
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| DaemonFC | how could it be bad? | Feb 09 14:18 |
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| DaemonFC | you can find IRIX isos around, it's been abandoned and only runs on MIPS, but it's out there | Feb 09 14:19 |
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| *oiaohm_ has quit (Remote host closed the connection) | Feb 09 14:19 |
| DaemonFC | get yourself an SGI workstation on ebay real cheap, when you get sick of playing around with IRIX, Linux runs on them | Feb 09 14:19 |
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| MinceR | old computers tend to be slow. | Feb 09 14:20 |
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| DaemonFC | MIPS processors are pretty damned fast | Feb 09 14:20 |
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| DaemonFC | even at like 1 Ghz, you're still doing good | Feb 09 14:21 |
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| DaemonFC | MinceR, The system on Jurassic Park was IRIX | Feb 09 14:22 |
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| DaemonFC | B-) | Feb 09 14:22 |
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| DaemonFC | SGI is now just another X86-64+RHEL vendor | Feb 09 14:23 |
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| MinceR | Jurassic Park is also old | Feb 09 14:23 |
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| DaemonFC | profits on that is probably razor thin | Feb 09 14:23 |
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| DaemonFC | most of the money going to Red Hat I'm sure | Feb 09 14:23 |
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| *kecskebak has quit (Remote host closed the connection) | Feb 09 14:27 |
| DaemonFC | http://www.omgubuntu.co.uk/2010/02/openoffice-dropped-from-ubuntu-netbook.html | Feb 09 14:41 |
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| phIRCe-BNc | Title: OpenOffice Dropped From Ubuntu Netbook Edition | OMG! Ubuntu! .::. Size~: 102.98 KB | Feb 09 14:41 |
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| sebsebseb | DaemonFC That's not offical | Feb 09 14:43 |
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| sebsebseb | it's a blue print | Feb 09 14:43 |
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| DaemonFC | ahhhh | Feb 09 14:43 |
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| sebsebseb | also the blueprint had some quite negative comments, and a link to an article | Feb 09 14:43 |
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| DaemonFC | abiword and gnumeric just don't cut it | Feb 09 14:44 |
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| DaemonFC | a lot of complex documents will just crash them | Feb 09 14:44 |
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| sebsebseb | oh you think Abiword and Gnumeric won't cut it hrm | Feb 09 14:44 |
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| DaemonFC | no PDF Export | Feb 09 14:44 |
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| sebsebseb | well I have used Abiword a bit here and there, and it seems alright | Feb 09 14:44 |
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| DaemonFC | I could go on and on | Feb 09 14:44 |
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| sebsebseb | ,but I never used it to open up complex documents | Feb 09 14:44 |
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| sebsebseb | or did I, and then I went to Open Office hrm | Feb 09 14:45 |
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| DaemonFC | As long as you never have any DOCX or any xls with embedded tables, you're OK I guess | Feb 09 14:45 |
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| DaemonFC | xls with tables will kill Gnumeric | Feb 09 14:45 |
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| DaemonFC | also doc with tables will crash Abiword | Feb 09 14:45 |
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| DaemonFC | errr, I'm not thinking right | Feb 09 14:46 |
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| DaemonFC | tables in doc kill Abiword | Feb 09 14:46 |
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| DaemonFC | what did I mean to say kill Gnumeric? | Feb 09 14:47 |
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| DaemonFC | I don't use either one of them ever since the first document someone sent me crashed abiword | Feb 09 14:47 |
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| MinceR | i haven't seen any documents crash either | Feb 09 14:49 |
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| MinceR | not display correctly, yes. crash, no. | Feb 09 14:49 |
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| MinceR | maybe you saw an early version? | Feb 09 14:49 |
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| DaemonFC | it was in Xubuntu around late 2008 I think | Feb 09 14:50 |
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| sebsebseb | This will link to the blueprint, plus now their are comments on Linux Today, http://www.linuxtoday.com/developer/2010020800635NWUB and unless it's been changed their's a link to an article that mentions Open Office being dropped, or well how it might be dropped I should say | Feb 09 14:52 |
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| phIRCe-BNc | Title: Linux Today - Discuss application use-cases in Lucid UNE (Drop OpenOffice) .::. Size~: 80.51 KB | Feb 09 14:52 |
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| sebsebseb | great message except I didn't get your name in it since... DeamonFC | Feb 09 14:52 |
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| -BNtwitter/#boycottnovell-[thistleweb] BBC - dot.Rory: Government advice: Browse safely with Microsoft - More MSBBC PR http://tinyurl.com/yguppz6 | Feb 09 14:53 |
| phIRCe-BNc | Title: BBC - dot.Rory: Government advice: Browse safely with Microsoft .::. Size~: 103.31 KB | Feb 09 14:53 |
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| sebsebseb | DaemonFC they should leave Open Office in really, and remove stuff like F-Spot and Tomboy if they are going to remote stuff I guess | Feb 09 14:56 |
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| sebsebseb | and no not, because they are Mono apps | Feb 09 14:56 |
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| sebsebseb | anyway how many people do photo editing on a net book? | Feb 09 14:56 |
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| sebsebseb | probably less than those who make documents on it? | Feb 09 14:57 |
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| DaemonFC | I wouldn't run the Netbook Remix :P | Feb 09 14:57 |
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| sebsebseb | I don't have a netbook | Feb 09 14:57 |
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| sebsebseb | ,but | Feb 09 14:57 |
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| sebsebseb | I have been thinking about virtual machine trying it | Feb 09 14:57 |
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| sebsebseb | UNR is also having Chromeium instead of FIrefox | Feb 09 14:58 |
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| MinceR | i wouldn't run the netbook remix either | Feb 09 14:58 |
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| MinceR | i prefer the desktop setup of Plasma Desktop | Feb 09 14:59 |
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| MinceR | :> | Feb 09 14:59 |
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| sebsebseb | MincerR starting with 9.10 they also have a Kubuntu one | Feb 09 14:59 |
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| MinceR | i know, that's the one i tried | Feb 09 14:59 |
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| MinceR | somehow they managed to hide the cashews so i couldn't even reconfigure it | Feb 09 14:59 |
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| sebsebseb | the what? | Feb 09 14:59 |
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| sebsebseb | anyway there are more interseting/better distros for net books, than what Ubuntu/Canonical provide | Feb 09 15:00 |
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| MinceR | the plasma icon | Feb 09 15:00 |
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| MinceR | with which one can change desktop activities, panels and applets | Feb 09 15:00 |
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| sebsebseb | DeamonFC Google Docs is propritary | Feb 09 15:01 |
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| sebsebseb | something about how the core apps are meant to all be open source with Ubuntu | Feb 09 15:01 |
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| sebsebseb | there was a comment I read some where it basically said, that's a bit odd they are doing Yahoo as the default search in Lucid and then Google Docs instead of Open Office as well, all in the same release | Feb 09 15:02 |
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| sebsebseb | then I think I read something else about how they want to make Google happy as well | Feb 09 15:02 |
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| sebsebseb | anyway hrm don't think I got round to reading it properly or I did, but there was an article/blog entry by that Steven J. Vaghen Nicholas if I remember correctly, that basically says that Canonical helped Google to make Chrome OS | Feb 09 15:03 |
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| sebsebseb | anyway quite a few interesting Linux distros out there for net books these days, and the Ubuntu one isn't exactly interesting | Feb 09 15:04 |
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| sebsebseb | ah the beautey of all these things in a way, they give us something to chat about on IRC and such :D | Feb 09 15:06 |
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| sebsebseb | and they give us articles and peoples comments and so on, to read on the web :D | Feb 09 15:06 |
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| -BNi/#boycottnovell-[sagarun/@sagarun] #CLT "I am takin back my love, I've given you too much" -Enrique Iglesias | Feb 09 15:07 |
| sebsebseb | and a lot of it gives schestowitz something to type his blog enteries about | Feb 09 15:08 |
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| sebsebseb | and so on | Feb 09 15:08 |
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| sebsebseb | nice to have some sort of idea what's going on when it comes to the computer world, sadly can't find out much when it comes to this subject | Feb 09 15:08 |
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| sebsebseb | from the main streame news | Feb 09 15:09 |
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| sebsebseb | http://www.linuxtoday.com/news_story.php3?ltsn=2010-02-08-006-35-NW-UB-0002 This comment indeed at it | Feb 09 15:12 |
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| phIRCe-BNc | Title: Linux Today - Discuss application use-cases in Lucid UNE (Drop OpenOffice) .::. Size~: 74.77 KB | Feb 09 15:12 |
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| sebsebseb | It's like these developers are forgetting in a way, how important The Gimp and Open Office really are | Feb 09 15:12 |
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| sebsebseb | both projects go back quite a while | Feb 09 15:12 |
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| sebsebseb | both projects run on Windows and have quite a lot of users there, more so for Open Office than The GIMP | Feb 09 15:13 |
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| sebsebseb | both projects have been in the default installs for most Desktop Linux distros, since I don't know when | Feb 09 15:13 |
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| sebsebseb | F-Spot is really just modern rubbish | Feb 09 15:14 |
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| sebsebseb | the app is ok, but there have been other programs that can do what F-Spot does for years | Feb 09 15:14 |
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| sebsebseb | what's there instead of Open Office well yeah KOffice which won't go in the Gnome UNR for obvious reasons | Feb 09 15:15 |
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| MinceR | there's also Gnome Office | Feb 09 15:15 |
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| sebsebseb | and if Abiword and Gnumeric aren't good enough, leave Open Office in, better than using some propritary Google Docs thing really. | Feb 09 15:15 |
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| sebsebseb | altough doesn't really effect me since I don't have a net book | Feb 09 15:16 |
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| sebsebseb | as for The GIMP I don't do graphics design, so again that woudn't effect me plus I know I can just install it | Feb 09 15:16 |
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| sebsebseb | I thought Abiword and Gnumeric are part of Gnome Office ? or well are Gnome Office | Feb 09 15:16 |
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| MinceR | they are | Feb 09 15:16 |
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| MinceR | part of it, that is | Feb 09 15:16 |
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| sebsebseb | what's the rest of Gnome Office then? | Feb 09 15:16 |
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| MinceR | iirc there's also Dia | Feb 09 15:19 |
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| MinceR | apparently not | Feb 09 15:19 |
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| MinceR | http://live.gnome.org/GnomeOffice | Feb 09 15:19 |
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| phIRCe-BNc | Title: GnomeOffice - GNOME Live! .::. Size~: 9.74 KB | Feb 09 15:19 |
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| MinceR | AbiWord, Evince, Evolution, Gnumeric | Feb 09 15:19 |
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| MinceR | or maybe this isn't really Gnome Office? | Feb 09 15:20 |
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| MinceR | according to WP, this is the Gnome Office page... | Feb 09 15:20 |
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| sebsebseb | oh yeah that Michael De Icza started Gnumeric apparnatly | Feb 09 15:20 |
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| sebsebseb | or something like that | Feb 09 15:20 |
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| sebsebseb | heh heh maybe Ubuntu should just get rid of Netbook Edition, which I think UNR is now called, and just support Chrome OS instead :D | Feb 09 15:21 |
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| sebsebseb | might as well, otherwise the CD will run out of space ha ha | Feb 09 15:22 |
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| sebsebseb | that seems to be the excuse for a lot of this kind of stuff | Feb 09 15:22 |
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| sebsebseb | the CD is going to run out of space if we don't remove... | Feb 09 15:22 |
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| MinceR | they could remove the mono runtime to save space | Feb 09 15:23 |
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| sebsebseb | well that's a bit hrm, since I burnt Mandriva 2010 Gnome to a standard sized CD, and well it also came with quite a few more apps than Ubuntu | Feb 09 15:23 |
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| sebsebseb | or so it seems | Feb 09 15:23 |
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| sebsebseb | maybe Ubuntu has under the hood stuf that is taking up space, that I don't really know about | Feb 09 15:23 |
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| sebsebseb | ,but in the Gnome menus, yep Mandriva had more | Feb 09 15:24 |
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| sebsebseb | MincerR there was a comment I read about how Mono apps don't take up that much space, but people forget something, or whatever it was | Feb 09 15:25 |
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| MinceR | yeah, people forget the size of the mono runtime | Feb 09 15:25 |
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| sebsebseb | it might have been that | Feb 09 15:26 |
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| sebsebseb | anywah the Google Docs thing in the net book version well | Feb 09 15:28 |
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| sebsebseb | ok us experienced Linux users quite a few us won't be so keen on it | Feb 09 15:29 |
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| sebsebseb | ,but their target audiance those who don't really know that much about computers, will be fine with it | Feb 09 15:29 |
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| sebsebseb | plus those same people really like Google | Feb 09 15:29 |
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| MinceR | then they're stupid | Feb 09 15:29 |
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| sebsebseb | you know all that Google hype etc | Feb 09 15:29 |
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| sebsebseb | well yes I am talking about the average computer user here | Feb 09 15:29 |
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| sebsebseb | the ones who have come from Windows looking for an alternative to get away from viruses and such | Feb 09 15:30 |
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| MinceR | and they shouldn't be affirmed in their ignorance | Feb 09 15:30 |
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| sebsebseb | what do you mean affirmed? | Feb 09 15:30 |
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| MinceR | imo OOo is better even as such an alternative | Feb 09 15:30 |
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| sebsebseb | well their target audiance won't just know about Open Office quite a few of them I guess or they will, but | Feb 09 15:30 |
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| sebsebseb | oh Google Docs | Feb 09 15:30 |
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| sebsebseb | oh it's "Google" ah yes | Feb 09 15:30 |
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| sebsebseb | Google | Feb 09 15:30 |
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| MinceR | sebsebseb: basically telling them "hey, trusting google with all your private is really great, we're endorsing it!" | Feb 09 15:30 |
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| sebsebseb | I love Google | Feb 09 15:30 |
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| MinceR | s/private/& data/ | Feb 09 15:31 |
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| sebsebseb | they wil use Google | Feb 09 15:31 |
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| sebsebseb | just like a lot of them will use their Iphones and Ipods and wonder why Ubuntu doesn't just support htem | Feb 09 15:31 |
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| sebsebseb | there was some guy earlier, he didn't seem to get it | Feb 09 15:31 |
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| sebsebseb | stupid ignorant, well that's what the average computer user is really, when it comes to computing | Feb 09 15:32 |
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| sebsebseb | heh I love this channel at times, I can say stuff like what I just did, without people like aruging against it :D | Feb 09 15:32 |
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| sebsebseb | oh I love helping people that don't know computers that well, become happy with Ubuntu | Feb 09 15:33 |
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| MinceR | ...only to be screwed on the long run? :> | Feb 09 15:33 |
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| sebsebseb | I have helped quite a lot of people online | Feb 09 15:33 |
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| sebsebseb | well yeah that's the thing | Feb 09 15:33 |
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| sebsebseb | Ubuntu is starting to become a bit hrm for me | Feb 09 15:34 |
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| sebsebseb | I am not that keen on how it is at the moment with 9.10 | Feb 09 15:34 |
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| sebsebseb | Ubuntu One in the default install | Feb 09 15:34 |
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| MinceR | i like 9.10, but the rumors are very disturbing | Feb 09 15:34 |
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| sebsebseb | horrible GDM theme that can't just be changed etc | Feb 09 15:34 |
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| MinceR | it seems it's all going to crap soon | Feb 09 15:34 |
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| MinceR | then again, i'm using Kubuntu, not Ubuntu | Feb 09 15:34 |
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| sebsebseb | I still think Ubuntu is a good one for new users, it's not perfect though | Feb 09 15:34 |
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| MinceR | so i have KDM... but i rarely see it since i usually just suspend my machines | Feb 09 15:35 |
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| sebsebseb | well no distros are, they are made by people, but Ubuntu is no where near perfect | Feb 09 15:35 |
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| sebsebseb | yeah I replaced GDM in Karmic with KDM | Feb 09 15:35 |
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| sebsebseb | yeah since like Ubuntu 8.04 | Feb 09 15:35 |
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| sebsebseb | Ubuntu has been getting better in certain ways and worse in others | Feb 09 15:35 |
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| sebsebseb | Gnome 3 might mess up Ubuntu as well | Feb 09 15:36 |
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| sebsebseb | I really do think a lot of users will get it, and then not be that keen on it etc | Feb 09 15:36 |
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| sebsebseb | ,but then again, most Ubuntu users seem to just take, what Ubuntu/Canoncial give them, and that's that | Feb 09 15:37 |
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| sebsebseb | oh and loads think Ubuntu is so amazing and great and aweseome since all the hype and how it's got such a big community, but Mandriva and so on are also pretty good :) | Feb 09 15:37 |
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| sebsebseb | Ubuntu is the major noobs distro and has been since well 2004? | Feb 09 15:39 |
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| sebsebseb | I used to think 8.10 with some proper marketting was ready for a lot of the mass's untill I found out that the ethernet woudn't just work on the other computer | Feb 09 15:40 |
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| sebsebseb | gargoyle-grin Gentoo contributor aye? So what do you do? | Feb 09 15:52 |
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| DaemonFC | http://forum.zomgstuff.net/showthread.php?p=208442#post208442 | Feb 09 16:30 |
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| phIRCe-BNc | Title: Quick Question Regarding the G15 USB Ports - ZomgStuff Forum .::. Size~: 187.09 KB | Feb 09 16:30 |
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| DaemonFC | heh | Feb 09 16:30 |
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| -BNtwitter/#boycottnovell-[qu1j0t3] Dear Carlos Slim: in a city of 6 million poor, a country of 90 million poor, who gives a fuck about ur vanity & ur Picassos? #mexico #greed | Feb 09 16:35 |
| Ender2070 | now that kde 4.4 hit the shelfs they let me publish | Feb 09 16:40 |
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| Ender2070 | http://www.pwnage.ca/?q=node/16 | Feb 09 16:40 |
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| phIRCe-BNc | Title: KDE 4.4 Final in Fedora 12 | www.pwnage.ca .::. Size~: 8.4 KB | Feb 09 16:40 |
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| trmanco | :) | Feb 09 16:48 |
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| -BNtwitter/#boycottnovell-[qu1j0t3] >@rww #Google Exiting #China? Not Just Yet http://bit.ly/93Hgyk // did anyone really expect them to? #stunt #moneytalks | Feb 09 16:54 |
| Ender2070 | :D | Feb 09 16:56 |
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| trmanco | Happy birthday to me :) | Feb 09 16:57 |
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| Ender2070 | happy birthday | Feb 09 16:58 |
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| Ender2070 | lol for my birthday they released fedora 12 | Feb 09 16:58 |
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| trmanco | thanks | Feb 09 17:03 |
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| -BNtwitter/#boycottnovell-[qu1j0t3] >@HappyFeminist recently heard Brazilian friend of friend in hopeless, dangerous situation due to unavailability of safe,legal abortion | Feb 09 17:12 |
| sebsebseb | trmanco Happy Birthday! How old? :D | Feb 09 17:13 |
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| trmanco | thanks | Feb 09 17:13 |
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| trmanco | 20 | Feb 09 17:13 |
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| sebsebseb | oh thought you would be older then that | Feb 09 17:14 |
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| DaemonFC | yeah, anytime you're not a complete retard, people expect you to be older | Feb 09 17:16 |
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| DaemonFC | funny how that works | Feb 09 17:16 |
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| -BNi/#boycottnovell-[sagarun/@sagarun] watching FOSSEE python workshop videos, An excellent work by FOSSEE team http://fossee.in/videos | Feb 09 17:17 |
| phIRCe-BNc | Title: Videos | FOSSEE .::. Size~: 11.67 KB | Feb 09 17:17 |
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| trmanco | no, I'm young | Feb 09 17:17 |
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| FurnaceBoy | trmanco: feliz aniversario | Feb 09 17:19 |
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| trmanco | obrigado | Feb 09 17:20 |
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| DaemonFC | old people act like the ark of the covenant was opened so god could strike them with divine revelation | Feb 09 17:20 |
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| trmanco | http://kde.org/announcements/4.4/ | Feb 09 17:21 |
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| phIRCe-BNc | Title: KDE - KDE SC 4.4.0 Caikaku Release Announcement .::. Size~: 28.21 KB | Feb 09 17:21 |
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| DaemonFC | even the ones that spent their whole lives doing menial labor and paying the same bills every month seem to think that 40 more years of that under the belt makes them wise | Feb 09 17:21 |
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| DaemonFC | the words "bitter" and "dejected" come to mind | Feb 09 17:22 |
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| FurnaceBoy | DaemonFC: some of us make an effort to learn during our four decades. "reading" comes to mind. | Feb 09 17:23 |
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| DaemonFC | the ability to read doesn't make someone intelligent | Feb 09 17:24 |
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| FurnaceBoy | DaemonFC: "travelling" is also helpful in broadening the mind. | Feb 09 17:24 |
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| DaemonFC | nor does the fact that you did read for 40 years | Feb 09 17:24 |
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| FurnaceBoy | no, but you might learn something. :) | Feb 09 17:24 |
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| FurnaceBoy | it's kinda traditional. | Feb 09 17:24 |
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| FurnaceBoy | we have these things, "schools" and "universities" | Feb 09 17:25 |
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| FurnaceBoy | non-geniuses are also welcome to attend | Feb 09 17:25 |
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| DaemonFC | yeah, big corporations that your generation put into power are trying to brainwash my generation | Feb 09 17:25 |
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| FurnaceBoy | my generation? | Feb 09 17:25 |
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| FurnaceBoy | you misestimate my age. | Feb 09 17:25 |
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| FurnaceBoy | i'm the generation trying to reverse that | Feb 09 17:25 |
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| DaemonFC | by closing down all the bookstores and having Walmart sell no reading material not written by Limbaugh, Beck, or Palin | Feb 09 17:25 |
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| FurnaceBoy | yes, i know all about it. so stop encouraging them. | Feb 09 17:25 |
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| *FurnaceBoy shuns franchises, you should too | Feb 09 17:26 |
| FurnaceBoy | but you are a contented Wal-Mart shopper, afaik | Feb 09 17:26 |
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| DaemonFC | Walmart likes to shove small, locally owned stores out so they can sell their own narrow assortment of censored books, music, and movies | Feb 09 17:26 |
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| FurnaceBoy | yes, we know. | Feb 09 17:27 |
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| FurnaceBoy | all franchises do it. | Feb 09 17:27 |
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| DaemonFC | it's quite interesting how they accomplish that too | Feb 09 17:27 |
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| FurnaceBoy | but you still shop there, don't you? How about Starbucks? IKEA? | Feb 09 17:27 |
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| DaemonFC | they only have to take away enough business from other stores to make it fiscally impossible to remain open | Feb 09 17:27 |
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| Ender2070 | FurnaceBoy - Daemon has no books, he burned them all while watching Rush | Feb 09 17:28 |
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| DaemonFC | so what if they only serve 60% of that stores customers? | Feb 09 17:28 |
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| DaemonFC | the other store still folds up and dies | Feb 09 17:28 |
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| DaemonFC | Ender2070, Just because I don't like the locust swarm, I suddenly can't read? | Feb 09 17:29 |
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| DaemonFC | how narrow minded of you :) | Feb 09 17:29 |
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| Ender2070 | can't and won't are two different things | Feb 09 17:29 |
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| schestowitz | trmanco: happy birthday | Feb 09 17:29 |
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| Ender2070 | obviously you can read if you're having a conversation with me | Feb 09 17:29 |
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| trmanco | thansk schestowitz | Feb 09 17:29 |
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| DaemonFC | maybe something must first interest me, and also shouldn't be outright propaganda | Feb 09 17:30 |
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| DaemonFC | then they have the nerve to put that shit in non-fiction | Feb 09 17:30 |
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| Ender2070 | stay away from the best sellers list then | Feb 09 17:30 |
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| DaemonFC | the best sellers list is always the far left and the far right ideologues | Feb 09 17:31 |
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| Ender2070 | if the author was funded by grants, their material is propaganda | Feb 09 17:31 |
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| DaemonFC | I think they buy a million copies of their own book just so it rapes you upon entering the store | Feb 09 17:31 |
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| Ender2070 | they can buy their way into the best sellers list | Feb 09 17:31 |
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| Ender2070 | without purchasing their own book a million times | Feb 09 17:32 |
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| Ender2070 | they can even get an operah sticker by paying | Feb 09 17:32 |
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| DaemonFC | yeah, pay off the people doing the tracking | Feb 09 17:32 |
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| Ender2070 | no its not even a backroom deal | Feb 09 17:32 |
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| Ender2070 | the publisher asks if you want to be on the best sellers list | Feb 09 17:32 |
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| DaemonFC | Oprah has endorsed some really mind-numbing bullshit | Feb 09 17:33 |
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| Ender2070 | it only costs a few thousand bucks | Feb 09 17:33 |
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| DaemonFC | there has to be some kickbacks in it for her | Feb 09 17:33 |
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| Ender2070 | oprah doesnt read half the shit that has her sticker on it | Feb 09 17:33 |
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| Ender2070 | you can buy her promotion | Feb 09 17:33 |
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| Ender2070 | they made fun of that fact on family guy | Feb 09 17:33 |
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| FurnaceBoy | if ppl turned the tv off, the problem would go away | Feb 09 17:35 |
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| FurnaceBoy | it's programmed buying | Feb 09 17:35 |
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| Ender2070 | also the government doesnt give grants to people who write stuff they dont want out there | Feb 09 17:35 |
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| FurnaceBoy | profitable and infinitely destructive | Feb 09 17:35 |
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| Ender2070 | FurnaceBoy - a simple highschool level education on subliminals is all you need to figure that one out | Feb 09 17:36 |
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| DaemonFC | Ender2070, National Endowment for the Arts | Feb 09 17:36 |
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| DaemonFC | :) | Feb 09 17:36 |
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| FurnaceBoy | Ender2070: i'm not even talking subliminal. | Feb 09 17:37 |
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| Ender2070 | the laws that go into regulating commercials for subliminals don't look into how often the commercial is played, it looks at the single commercial individually | Feb 09 17:37 |
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| Ender2070 | well you mentioned programming | Feb 09 17:37 |
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| FurnaceBoy | Ender2070: it doesn't have to be subliminal. | Feb 09 17:37 |
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| FurnaceBoy | yes in a general sense. | Feb 09 17:37 |
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| Ender2070 | tv is a lot of brainwashing | Feb 09 17:38 |
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| FurnaceBoy | most ppl live according to the program. turning the tv off, not owning a tv, is now radical | Feb 09 17:38 |
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| FurnaceBoy | of course it is, it's what it is for. | Feb 09 17:38 |
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| DaemonFC | subliminal ads are not effective | Feb 09 17:38 |
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| Ender2070 | i agree | Feb 09 17:38 |
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| FurnaceBoy | DaemonFC: they're not the topic here | Feb 09 17:38 |
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| DaemonFC | and it's illegal anyway | Feb 09 17:38 |
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| Ender2070 | subliminal ads are VERY effective too | Feb 09 17:38 |
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| FurnaceBoy | but they are not needed | Feb 09 17:38 |
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| Ender2070 | if you see a single commercial more than once during a program, thats subliminal | Feb 09 17:39 |
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| Ender2070 | its not always about secret messages | Feb 09 17:39 |
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| FurnaceBoy | the actual techniques don't concern me as much as the effect | Feb 09 17:39 |
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| Ender2070 | playing the same thing over and over does it too | Feb 09 17:39 |
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| FurnaceBoy | as of now, tv is in control | Feb 09 17:39 |
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| FurnaceBoy | tv and film | Feb 09 17:39 |
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| DaemonFC | http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Subliminal_advertising#Effectiveness | Feb 09 17:39 |
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| phIRCe-BNc | Title: Subliminal stimuli - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia .::. Size~: 114.57 KB | Feb 09 17:39 |
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| FurnaceBoy | DaemonFC: this isn't the topic | Feb 09 17:39 |
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| DaemonFC | I'm still waiting for blipverts | Feb 09 17:39 |
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| FurnaceBoy | DaemonFC: so, you didn't answer: do you shop at Wal-Mart, IKEA or Starbucks? | Feb 09 17:40 |
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| Ender2070 | people won't believe anything unless its on tv too | Feb 09 17:40 |
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| FurnaceBoy | Ender2070: correct | Feb 09 17:40 |
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| FurnaceBoy | Ender2070: 1) if it's not on tv, it's false 2) if it's on tv, it's true | Feb 09 17:40 |
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| DaemonFC | there is no Starbucks here, there is no IKEA | Feb 09 17:40 |
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| FurnaceBoy | Ender2070: perfectly hermetic system | Feb 09 17:40 |
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| DaemonFC | I try not to shop at Walmart | Feb 09 17:40 |
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| FurnaceBoy | DaemonFC: but if there were, would you shop there? or boycott? and do you shop at Walmart? | Feb 09 17:40 |
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| Ender2070 | im even reading a book on brainwashing | Feb 09 17:40 |
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| Ender2070 | it gets scary | Feb 09 17:41 |
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| DaemonFC | it's harder to avoid Walmart every year | Feb 09 17:41 |
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| FurnaceBoy | DaemonFC: "try not" ? | Feb 09 17:41 |
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| DaemonFC | more and more of their competitors are just gone | Feb 09 17:41 |
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| FurnaceBoy | DaemonFC: right, and that is a problem | Feb 09 17:41 |
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| Ender2070 | why do news reporters always sit in front of a wall of monitors sometimes? | Feb 09 17:41 |
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| FurnaceBoy | DaemonFC: i don't think anyone should accept this | Feb 09 17:41 |
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| FurnaceBoy | DaemonFC: UK has this problem with Tesco | Feb 09 17:41 |
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| DaemonFC | FurnaceBoy, It's not going to be easy when they're the only store left | Feb 09 17:41 |
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| FurnaceBoy | DaemonFC: why do we let it get that far? | Feb 09 17:41 |
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| DaemonFC | FurnaceBoy, Because people assume that low prices are always going to be there | Feb 09 17:42 |
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| FurnaceBoy | euh? | Feb 09 17:42 |
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| FurnaceBoy | but why did anyone conclude that cheap is good for anyone? | Feb 09 17:42 |
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| Ender2070 | the human brain can only handle a few crisis at a time | Feb 09 17:42 |
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| FurnaceBoy | that's a really american concept | Feb 09 17:42 |
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| DaemonFC | when they're really a weapon to get rid of competitors so they can raise prices to higher than the competitors were | Feb 09 17:42 |
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| FurnaceBoy | "buy the cheapest" <-- american idea | Feb 09 17:42 |
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| FurnaceBoy | and who on earth thought it was a good idea.. | Feb 09 17:42 |
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| DaemonFC | well, when someone lives on minimum wage I could see how | Feb 09 17:43 |
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| DaemonFC | cash and carry world | Feb 09 17:43 |
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| Ender2070 | i buy the cheapest, high quality items | Feb 09 17:43 |
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| FurnaceBoy | i can too. but that's just another problematic aspect of the same system. | Feb 09 17:43 |
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| FurnaceBoy | buying Walmart perpetuates poverty | Feb 09 17:43 |
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| Ender2070 | not the cheapest of the cheap | Feb 09 17:43 |
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| Ender2070 | i get the cheapest thing i think is decent | Feb 09 17:43 |
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| DaemonFC | of course it does | Feb 09 17:43 |
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| DaemonFC | they pay their employees so little, it should be illegal | Feb 09 17:44 |
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| FurnaceBoy | DaemonFC: that's a tricky concept to get across | Feb 09 17:44 |
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| FurnaceBoy | DaemonFC: it's worse than just the pay rate | Feb 09 17:44 |
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| DaemonFC | they pass out brochures on how to get on food stamps and medicaid | Feb 09 17:44 |
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| FurnaceBoy | DaemonFC: the *existence* of Walmart impoverishes communities. | Feb 09 17:44 |
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| FurnaceBoy | not just their low pay | Feb 09 17:44 |
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| DaemonFC | people who pay taxes should be livid about that | Feb 09 17:44 |
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| DaemonFC | you're not saving money, you're paying taxes to subsidize the rest of that person's existence | Feb 09 17:45 |
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| DaemonFC | people don't understand this | Feb 09 17:45 |
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| DaemonFC | Walmart also depresses wages and benefits at the competitors | Feb 09 17:45 |
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| DaemonFC | The Owens grocery stores here were starting at $8.75 an hour before Walmart came in | Feb 09 17:46 |
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| DaemonFC | now they start at $7.50 | Feb 09 17:46 |
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| jweyrich | someone has to study a bit more. | Feb 09 17:46 |
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| DaemonFC | so Walmart causes poverty everywhere they go and far beyond their own abused employees | Feb 09 17:47 |
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| -BNtwitter/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] The press seems pessimistic about #Microsoft , which is increasingly seen as unable to evolve and innovate http://ur1.ca/lwqn | Feb 09 17:47 |
| phIRCe-BNc | Title: Eye on Microsoft: Signs of Game Over | Boycott Novell .::. Size~: 127.56 KB | Feb 09 17:47 |
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| DaemonFC | granted $8.75 an hour is tough to live on, but $7.50 is damned near impossible | Feb 09 17:47 |
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| DaemonFC | and that's just for one person you know, those people might have kids | Feb 09 17:48 |
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| DaemonFC | and so the kids are a burden of taxpayer-funded programs too | Feb 09 17:48 |
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| DaemonFC | wages go down > safety net programs become part of day to day life > taxes go up | Feb 09 17:49 |
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| DaemonFC | it just can't be avoided | Feb 09 17:49 |
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| FurnaceBoy | DaemonFC: yes. Walmart is part of the problem. shame people don't get that. | Feb 09 17:50 |
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| -BNtwitter/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] #Windows ‘Battery Killer’ ( #Vista7 ) Also Has #USB Data Transfer Issues and Stability Problems http://ur1.ca/lwr6 | Feb 09 17:50 |
| phIRCe-BNc | Title: Windows Battery Killer (Vista 7) Also Has USB Data Transfer Issues and Stability Problems, Does Not Sell Well | Boycott Novell .::. Size~: 104.13 KB | Feb 09 17:50 |
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| FurnaceBoy | DaemonFC: all franchises are. | Feb 09 17:50 |
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| DaemonFC | the burden of taxation gets heavier and heavier until even the people that managed to keep their head above water go under | Feb 09 17:50 |
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| FurnaceBoy | haha | Feb 09 17:50 |
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| FurnaceBoy | DaemonFC: the effective tax rate in Canada is about the same as the US. | Feb 09 17:50 |
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| FurnaceBoy | DaemonFC: this 'crippling tax' thing is another right wing invention. | Feb 09 17:51 |
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| DaemonFC | it's not just the feds | Feb 09 17:51 |
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| DaemonFC | the states crank it up the more they have to pay for medicaid | Feb 09 17:51 |
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| FurnaceBoy | DaemonFC: no, that includes provincial and federal sales tax. the effective rate is the same. | Feb 09 17:51 |
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| DaemonFC | and to hire people to process food stamp claims | Feb 09 17:51 |
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| FurnaceBoy | DaemonFC: well, this works fine in canada. we don't pay more tax than you do. | Feb 09 17:51 |
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| FurnaceBoy | DaemonFC: it's only you guys who can't sort this out | Feb 09 17:52 |
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| FurnaceBoy | mainly due to irrational FUD about government promulgated by the loony right | Feb 09 17:52 |
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| DaemonFC | taxation goes up to cover poverty "relief" programs for people who are getting their wages busted and hours cut | Feb 09 17:53 |
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| DaemonFC | it cannot come from anywhere else | Feb 09 17:53 |
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| FurnaceBoy | unfortunately, our conservative govt has just driven the country from surplus into deficit | Feb 09 17:53 |
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| FurnaceBoy | conservatives are useless, should be ground up for food! | Feb 09 17:53 |
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| DaemonFC | FurnaceBoy, Soylent Cheney | Feb 09 17:53 |
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| DaemonFC | :D | Feb 09 17:53 |
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| FurnaceBoy | DaemonFC: ugh, contamination! :| | Feb 09 17:54 |
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| DaemonFC | with a side of oil company lobbyist over condolezza rice | Feb 09 17:55 |
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| DaemonFC | mmmmmm | Feb 09 17:55 |
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| FurnaceBoy | haha | Feb 09 17:55 |
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| DaemonFC | you know how many lobbyists there are? | Feb 09 17:57 |
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| -BNi/#boycottnovell-[serk01/@serk01] gnu/linux is evil! [funny pic] http://i.imgur.com/NaMar.png | Feb 09 17:57 |
| phIRCe-BNc | Title: Not a web page! Aborting image/png type .::. Size~: 0 KB | Feb 09 17:57 |
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| DaemonFC | you could probably lay them end to end and circle the moon and back | Feb 09 17:57 |
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| DaemonFC | it doesn't matter who is in office, the lobbyists and their money drown out the constituents :) | Feb 09 17:58 |
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| DaemonFC | all politicians are corrupt | Feb 09 17:58 |
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| DaemonFC | Canada's government healthcare actually covers up health problems caused by the government | Feb 09 17:59 |
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| DaemonFC | they won't testify over all those people developing all kinds of diseases because of the oil drilling in Alberta | Feb 09 18:00 |
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| DaemonFC | the government is covering its own ass | Feb 09 18:00 |
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| DaemonFC | now there's some corruption for you | Feb 09 18:00 |
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| DaemonFC | no testimony, no case | Feb 09 18:00 |
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| DaemonFC | http://www.alive.com/247a1a2.php?subject_bread_cramb=411 | Feb 09 18:02 |
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| FurnaceBoy | DaemonFC: yes the oil sands is a catastrophe | Feb 09 18:08 |
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| MinceR | http://hardware.slashdot.org/story/10/02/09/1557204/Hardware-TPM-Hacked?from=rss&utm_source=feedburner&utm_medium=feed&utm_campaign=Feed%3A+Slashdot%2Fslashdot+%28Slashdot%29 | Feb 09 18:26 |
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| phIRCe-BNc | Title: Slashdot Hardware Story | Hardware TPM Hacked .::. Size~: 143.53 KB | Feb 09 18:27 |
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| -BNi/#boycottnovell-[sagarun/@sagarun] I want to try kde 4.4 ( www.kde.org ) ; Will try to install it in #24camp this Saturday | Feb 09 18:27 |
| FurnaceBoy | yeah but this technique is nothing new. | Feb 09 18:33 |
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| FurnaceBoy | see: http://www.flylogic.net/blog/?cat=1 | Feb 09 18:34 |
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| phIRCe-BNc | Title: Microchip Technology, Inc. Reviews « Flylogic Engineerings Analytical Blog .::. Size~: 25.08 KB | Feb 09 18:34 |
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| DaemonFC | FurnaceBoy, The only reason I'd like to see any government health insurance program is because the FBI is already using constitutionally illegal national security letters to wiretap | Feb 09 18:34 |
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| FurnaceBoy | see: http://www.cl.cam.ac.uk/~sps32/mcu_lock.html | Feb 09 18:34 |
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| phIRCe-BNc | Title: The Computer Laboratory .::. Size~: 4.7 KB | Feb 09 18:34 |
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| DaemonFC | what makes you think that they can't get your medical records the same way? :P | Feb 09 18:34 |
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| FurnaceBoy | DaemonFC: national security letters are not needed! those are generally thrown at libraries. | Feb 09 18:35 |
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| FurnaceBoy | DaemonFC: why aren't you talking about the NSA, purely warrantless tapping? | Feb 09 18:35 |
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| DaemonFC | in otherwords they're spying on us anyway, we might as well just have them be the insurance provider | Feb 09 18:35 |
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| FurnaceBoy | DaemonFC: the bigger question is why you tolerate the status quo at all. boiling frogs much?! | Feb 09 18:35 |
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| DaemonFC | well, according to them, it was calls between an American and someone in another country, not that I believe it and not that that excuses what they did | Feb 09 18:36 |
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| DaemonFC | but they'll find a way to make it legal after the fact | Feb 09 18:36 |
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| FurnaceBoy | DaemonFC: no, that 's pure fabrication | Feb 09 18:36 |
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| DaemonFC | they always do | Feb 09 18:36 |
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| FurnaceBoy | DaemonFC: you don't KNOW about the NSA taps? | Feb 09 18:36 |
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| FurnaceBoy | holy cerap | Feb 09 18:36 |
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| FurnaceBoy | crap | Feb 09 18:36 |
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| FurnaceBoy | you guys live in a bigger bubble than i thought | Feb 09 18:36 |
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| DaemonFC | the ones in 2005/2006? | Feb 09 18:36 |
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| FurnaceBoy | DaemonFC: the NSA has been doing all-band warrantless taps for years, you don;'t know about it? | Feb 09 18:37 |
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| *jono has quit (Remote host closed the connection) | Feb 09 18:37 |
| FurnaceBoy | DaemonFC: ONGOING! | Feb 09 18:37 |
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| FurnaceBoy | DaemonFC: continuously | Feb 09 18:37 |
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| DaemonFC | yeah, usually in collaboration with other willing governments ;) | Feb 09 18:37 |
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| FurnaceBoy | eugh | Feb 09 18:38 |
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| FurnaceBoy | you don't even need enemies outside the US. you have enough within | Feb 09 18:38 |
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| FurnaceBoy | http://arstechnica.com/tech-policy/news/2009/01/nsa-whistleblower-says-journos-were-targeted.ars | Feb 09 18:38 |
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| phIRCe-BNc | Title: NSA whistleblower says journos were targeted .::. Size~: 30.67 KB | Feb 09 18:38 |
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| DaemonFC | the British are the bastards spying on us | Feb 09 18:38 |
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| FurnaceBoy | LOL!!!! | Feb 09 18:39 |
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| FurnaceBoy | don't start, please. you were doing so well... | Feb 09 18:39 |
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| DaemonFC | the NSA spies on British citizens | Feb 09 18:39 |
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| FurnaceBoy | and the CIA kidnaps citizens of all nationalities. | Feb 09 18:39 |
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| DaemonFC | the British spy on us and tell the NSA what they know | Feb 09 18:39 |
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| FurnaceBoy | well, yes, of course. | Feb 09 18:39 |
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| FurnaceBoy | that loophole has been revealed :) | Feb 09 18:40 |
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| FurnaceBoy | http://www.salon.com/opinion/greenwald/2008/10/09/eavesdropping/ | Feb 09 18:40 |
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| phIRCe-BNc | Title: Glenn Greenwald - Salon.com .::. Size~: 74.62 KB | Feb 09 18:40 |
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| DaemonFC | the UK was so eager to commit to the Iraq invasion and occupation | Feb 09 18:41 |
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| FurnaceBoy | http://glenngreenwald.blogspot.com/2006/03/nsa-scandal-now-clearly-includes.html | Feb 09 18:41 |
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| phIRCe-BNc | Title: Unclaimed Territory - by Glenn Greenwald: The NSA scandal now clearly includes interception of domestic communications, perjury and presidential lying .::. Size~: 46.96 KB | Feb 09 18:41 |
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| DaemonFC | I mean yeah, Canada, Australia, and a bunch of others went along with it | Feb 09 18:41 |
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| FurnaceBoy | not Canada. | Feb 09 18:41 |
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| FurnaceBoy | Canada did not participate in Vietnam either. | Feb 09 18:41 |
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| DaemonFC | but Tony Blair was like "How many? When? How fast can we get there?" | Feb 09 18:41 |
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| FurnaceBoy | yes, we are aware. | Feb 09 18:42 |
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| FurnaceBoy | DaemonFC: do you know what the CHilcott inquiry is? | Feb 09 18:42 |
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| DaemonFC | no | Feb 09 18:42 |
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| FurnaceBoy | hehehe | Feb 09 18:42 |
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| FurnaceBoy | where do you get your news from? | Feb 09 18:42 |
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| DaemonFC | I don't, usually | Feb 09 18:43 |
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| FurnaceBoy | http://www.medialens.org/alerts/09/091216_chilcot_inquiry_the.php | Feb 09 18:43 |
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| FurnaceBoy | Blair lied to his party, lied to parliament and lied to his country. Lest we forget, this extended to terrorising his own people. On November 7, 2002, the day before the UN vote on Resolution 1441, which "set the clock ticking" on war, Downing Street began issuing almost daily warnings of imminent terrorist threats against UK ferries, the underground, and major public events. In 2003, Blair | Feb 09 18:44 |
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| FurnaceBoy | ordered tanks to ring Heathrow airport - an astonishing action said to be in response to increased terrorist "chatter" warning of a "missile threat". | Feb 09 18:44 |
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| FurnaceBoy | The Guardian/Observer website records dozens of mentions of articles containing the words "Heathrow" and "threat" between November 2002 and February 2003. These abruptly ceased after February 14 - the day Hans Blix, head of the UNMOVIC arms inspection team in Iraq, presented a key report to the UN, and the day before the biggest anti-war protest march in British history. Thereafter, the | Feb 09 18:44 |
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| FurnaceBoy | "threat" just disappeared - no suspects were caught, no missiles were found, and no further questions were asked. | Feb 09 18:44 |
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| FurnaceBoy | the US-UK coalition manufactured a crisis to +prevent+ inspectors from giving Iraq a clean bill of health. Similarly, in 2002, as the leaked Downing Street memo exposed, the coalition planned to provoke Saddam Hussein into obstructing weapons inspections and so provide a justification for war (the second part of the plan was to provoke an Iraqi military response justifying war through increased | |
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