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IRC: #boycottnovell @ FreeNode: February 9th, 2010

oiaohmNAT is running into issues of not enough ports.Feb 09 00:05
oiaohmThe NAT problem is not going to just disappear because ipv6 gets put in.Feb 09 00:06
FurnaceBoycubezzz: it's not practical to 'replace' much of the existing ipv4 infraFeb 09 00:06
FurnaceBoycubezzz: so they'll run in parallelFeb 09 00:06
FurnaceBoycubezzz: eventually :)Feb 09 00:06
oiaohm65000+ ports should have been enough.   But hey.Feb 09 00:06
FurnaceBoyoiaohm: 2 x RS-232 should be enough!Feb 09 00:07
-BNtwitter/#boycottnovell-[davidgerard] NewsTechnica: Facebook pressured to change from old style to old old style 09 00:07
phIRCe-BNcTitle: Facebook pressured to change from old style to old old style  | NewsTechnica .::. Size~: 39.33 KBFeb 09 00:07
oiaohmFor webservers we don't need that many IP's.Feb 09 00:07
FurnaceBoyright.Feb 09 00:07
FurnaceBoyconsolidation ftwFeb 09 00:07
FurnaceBoyhaha, did y\'all see that NZ school article?Feb 09 00:08
FurnaceBoythe microsoft solution spec'd 48 servers. they went open source and needed only four.Feb 09 00:08
oiaohmYet items like ftp and so on are designed to operate depending on IP.Feb 09 00:08
oiaohmBasically if more protocals were like http and less like ftp.  Ie supports port stacking we would have less IP problems.Feb 09 00:09
oiaohmIe port stacking and ip stacking.Feb 09 00:09
oiaohmBig issue no one likes answer is how to you NAT a IPV6Feb 09 00:10
oiaohmWithout running into the same port issue NAT on IPV4 is suffering form.Feb 09 00:11
cubezzzsounds like more billable hours for someone :)Feb 09 00:11
-BNtwitter/#boycottnovell-[davidgerard] NewsTechnica slightly broken because I hacked the theme one hack too far. VERSION CONTROL, DO I SPEAK IT. A*se.Feb 09 00:13
oiaohmReally if we did not have port and direct ip issues there is no real reason we would need ipv6.Feb 09 00:13
oiaohmInstead we would just stack NAT's and be done with it.Feb 09 00:14
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oiaohmOf course stacking nats would stuff up p2p traffic o well.Feb 09 00:15
cubezzzinternet in North America seems rather slowFeb 09 00:23
cubezzzactually rogers seems faster than bell dsl Feb 09 00:24
cubezzzusuallyFeb 09 00:24
_goblinLets see if Bill Gates responds to my tweet.....Feb 09 00:25
_goblinhe said:Feb 09 00:25
_goblinI applaud President Obama calling Uganda's proposed anti-gay law “odious.” 09 00:25
_goblinso I responded:Feb 09 00:25
_goblinSo then you would support the action taken by a gay employee against Microsoft? #microsoft #windowsFeb 09 00:25
phIRCe-BNcTitle: Gay worker sues Microsoft for discrimination  | News Story on .::. Size~: 49.12 KBFeb 09 00:26
FurnaceBoycubezzz: slow compared to what?Feb 09 00:26
FurnaceBoy_goblin: good stuffFeb 09 00:26
cubezzzEurope Feb 09 00:26
_goblinI hate hypocracy.....or I would if I could spell it.Feb 09 00:27
FurnaceBoycubezzz: latency or bandwidth?Feb 09 00:27
FurnaceBoy_goblin: hypocrisy* and boy does he have it in spadesFeb 09 00:27
_goblinthanks!Feb 09 00:28
cubezzzFurnaceBoy, it seems they are getting much faster file transfers than we do in CanadaFeb 09 00:28
cubezzzfor example in Sweden... Feb 09 00:28
FurnaceBoycubezzz: well, this can be measured.Feb 09 00:29
cubezzzI max out at about 550k per secFeb 09 00:29
FurnaceBoythere are so many factors.Feb 09 00:29
_goblinmy max is around 370k per secFeb 09 00:30
FurnaceBoycubezzz: since i rent colo in TO, i can probably tell you exactly what this Bell residential ADSL can bear :)Feb 09 00:30
FurnaceBoycubezzz: it's around that, or a little moreFeb 09 00:30
cubezzzyeahFeb 09 00:30
FurnaceBoycubezzz: but i haven't measured it to my colo, life's too short for benchmarks :)Feb 09 00:31
cubezzzso that is 5mbps?Feb 09 00:31
FurnaceBoyi think it's 10 ... but they don't seem to offer this service any moreFeb 09 00:31
FurnaceBoy10 on paper, i mean.Feb 09 00:31
FurnaceBoynot based on measurement.Feb 09 00:31
FurnaceBoyi have no idea what i can push through itFeb 09 00:31
FurnaceBoypull*Feb 09 00:32
cubezzzI originally signed up for 3.0 Mb Residental ADSL serviceFeb 09 00:32
FurnaceBoyit's very reliable, though, which matters more to meFeb 09 00:32
FurnaceBoyyeah, i signed up for 1.5Mbit in 2001.Feb 09 00:32
cubezzzthen  was told it was beefed up to 5.0 MBFeb 09 00:32
FurnaceBoyi think these speeds are basically marketingFeb 09 00:33
FurnaceBoyadsl varies by distance anywayFeb 09 00:33
cubezzzit seems a bit faster than it did originallyFeb 09 00:34
cubezzzyeah, I'm a fair ways away from the coFeb 09 00:34
FurnaceBoymine only gets dodgy when there's a lot of rain.Feb 09 00:34
FurnaceBoyi'm in an older buildingFeb 09 00:34
FurnaceBoyi think somewhere water affects the phoneFeb 09 00:35
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cubezzzstupid dlink won't let me communicate with the adsl modemFeb 09 00:36
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_goblinmentioning my bandwidth was the kiss of death for my connection.....damn O2 playing up again.Feb 09 00:37
-BNtwitter/#boycottnovell-[_the_mad_hatter] @_Goblin Never heard of Luton Town FC, but I'm a life long Toronto Maple Leaf supporter, and if that doesn't prove insanity...Feb 09 00:43
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-BNtwitter/#boycottnovell-[_goblin] @_the_mad_hatter lol. - I'll make you a supporter yet.....Feb 09 00:45
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-BNtwitter/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] #LTSP Comes in New and Improved Web Site 09 00:52
phIRCe-BNcTitle: The new LTSP-Cluster website's officially out | Stéphane Graber's website .::. Size~: 13.28 KBFeb 09 00:52
-BNtwitter/#boycottnovell-[davidgerard] climate change "skeptics" are as aggressively ignorant as creationists, and rate similar regard. 09 00:54
phIRCe-BNcTitle: Climate change: A guide for the perplexed - environment - 16 May 2007 - New Scientist .::. Size~: 80.84 KBFeb 09 00:54
-BNtwitter/#boycottnovell-[_goblin] Looking for someone to design an Openbytes logo/banner....full credit will be given....anyone?Feb 09 00:55
-BNtwitter/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] How #GNU #Linux Already Thrives in Businesses 09 00:56
phIRCe-BNcTitle: 10 Ways that Enterprises use Linux - Linux Servers and Apache News Story .::. Size~: 48.43 KBFeb 09 00:56
-BNtwitter/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] #Linux 2.6.33 Just a Couple of Steps from Final Release 09 00:58
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_goblinHas Jono Bacon commented here today?Feb 09 01:00
jono_goblin, nopeFeb 09 01:00
_goblinlol.Feb 09 01:00
-BNtwitter/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] #ATI and #Nvidia Compete for #Linux Love 09 01:00
jono:)Feb 09 01:00
phIRCe-BNcTitle: AMD and Nvidia bitchfight over open source support | Software news | TechEye - All the technology news unfit for print .::. Size~: 29 KBFeb 09 01:00
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_goblinSo whats the score with OpenOffice and UNR?Feb 09 01:00
_goblinIF it was removed, what would it be replaced with?Feb 09 01:00
jono_goblin, we don't know yetFeb 09 01:01
_goblinisn't this a little last minute....10.04LTS I thought was going to be a turning point/landmark release for Canonical, shouldn't these issues have been resolved a long time ago?Feb 09 01:02
MinceRthe online version of m$ office, of courseFeb 09 01:02
MinceRwith a yahoo logo on top, to distract the unwaryFeb 09 01:02
jono_goblin, afaik UNR is not an LTSFeb 09 01:02
jonoMinceR, you rumbled usFeb 09 01:03
jonothat is obviously our logical next stepFeb 09 01:03
jono:-)Feb 09 01:03
-BNtwitter/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] Cross-Platform Applications in [P]Review: #Brewtarget and #Stellarium 09 01:03
MinceR:>Feb 09 01:03
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phIRCe-BNcTitle: Planetarium Software for Young Children in Ubuntu / Debian  Linux : Stellarium |Linux and Microcontroller Tips .::. Size~: 123.94 KBFeb 09 01:03
_goblinok....but theres the gimp issue that also is not decided.Feb 09 01:03
_goblinits another question that really should have been answered a long time ago.Feb 09 01:03
jono_goblin, I have confidence that the mobile team know what they are doingFeb 09 01:03
_goblinim sure...Feb 09 01:03
_goblinit would be nice though if Lucid, was really Lucid to everyone else.Feb 09 01:04
-BNtwitter/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] A Look at #KDE 4.3 System Settings and New Lancelot Feature 09 01:04
-BNtwitter/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] #KDE 4.4 Out Tomorrow!!!Feb 09 01:04
phIRCe-BNcTitle: Dell dropping its Ubuntu offerings? | Adventures in IT - InfoWorld .::. Size~: 70.77 KBFeb 09 01:04
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jono_goblin, it will be LucidFeb 09 01:04
_goblinits certainly not at the moment.Feb 09 01:04
jonobut the UNR version varies as it is a netbook versionFeb 09 01:04
jono_goblin, how so?Feb 09 01:04
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_goblinas in:Feb 09 01:05
_goblin “easily understood; completely intelligible or comprehensible:a lucid explanation.” Feb 09 01:05
_goblinno answer on GimpFeb 09 01:05
_goblinno answer on OOFeb 09 01:05
_goblina rather bizarre survey into proprietary app inclusion....Feb 09 01:05
jonololFeb 09 01:05
jonorightFeb 09 01:05
_goblinand a deal with the good ship Yahoo, bound for Microsoft.Feb 09 01:05
jonowell, don't use itFeb 09 01:05
_goblineh?Feb 09 01:06
jonothere are plenty of alternatives :)Feb 09 01:06
MinceRis that the official recommendation from canonical then? :>Feb 09 01:06
_goblinIm asking for clarification not casting a damnation.Feb 09 01:06
jonoit sounds lie you have made your mind upFeb 09 01:06
_goblinreally?Feb 09 01:06
MinceR"Ubuntu(r) 9.04 -- Don't Use It.(tm)" :>Feb 09 01:06
MinceRoopsFeb 09 01:06
_goblinhow can I do that when questions are not being answered?Feb 09 01:06
MinceRs/9/10/Feb 09 01:06
jono_goblin, no you are not, you are are casting damnation and expecting me to pull out dignity from the ashesFeb 09 01:06
_goblinreally? how so?Feb 09 01:06
_goblinis Ubuntu not going with Yahoo?Feb 09 01:07
_goblinhas Canonical actually made a decision on Gimp?Feb 09 01:07
_goblinor OO?Feb 09 01:07
-BNtwitter/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] New Features in #GNOME Desktop 3 09 01:07
jono<_goblin> So whats the score with OpenOffice and UNR?Feb 09 01:07
jono IF it was removed, what would it be replaced with?Feb 09 01:07
jono<jono> _goblin, we don't know yetFeb 09 01:07
phIRCe-BNcTitle: A Few New Features In Gnome-Shell | OMG! Ubuntu! .::. Size~: 106.04 KBFeb 09 01:07
jonowant me to just make something up?Feb 09 01:07
*MinceR is still waiting to see how this all turns outFeb 09 01:07
jonoand I have discussed the gimp decision here alreadyFeb 09 01:07
_goblinno...not at all thats why I said "it is not Lucid" at the present time.Feb 09 01:07
MinceRi don't think you should make stuff up, we'll see it when it has been decided.Feb 09 01:07
_goblineven to you Jono.Feb 09 01:07
jono_goblin, it is Lucid to me, but yes, we don't have all decision made yetFeb 09 01:08
jonoand that has always been the case with UbuntuFeb 09 01:08
jonowith every releaseFeb 09 01:08
_goblin “easily understood; completely intelligible or comprehensible:a lucid explanation.” Feb 09 01:08
_goblinreally?Feb 09 01:08
jonowe often make decisions late in the cyucleFeb 09 01:08
jonoyesFeb 09 01:08
jonoand every distro is the sameFeb 09 01:08
_goblinevery distro is not an LTSFeb 09 01:08
jono_goblin, why do we have to know now? feature freeze is not here yetFeb 09 01:08
jonotake a look at 09 01:09
phIRCe-BNcTitle: LucidReleaseSchedule - Ubuntu Wiki .::. Size~: 21.3 KBFeb 09 01:09
-BNtwitter/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] TuxRadar Primer to #Fedora #GNU #Linux 12 09 01:09
jonoten days before feature freezeFeb 09 01:09
phIRCe-BNcTitle: A newbie's guide to Fedora 12 | TuxRadar Linux .::. Size~: 47.84 KBFeb 09 01:09
jonoand even post FF we often make last minute decisionsFeb 09 01:09
_goblinand correct me if Im wrong the Yahoo deal and Ubuntu One revenue stream is not the same as every it?  Youve changed your business model (and no problem with that) yet you still make last minute decisions?Feb 09 01:09
oiaohm_  OuchFeb 09 01:09
phIRCe-BNcTitle:  Oracle Cuts Affect GNOME Accessibility Work  .::. Size~: 36.79 KBFeb 09 01:09
jono_goblin, I dont understand the questionFeb 09 01:09
_goblinwell the ubuntu of today is vastly different to that of yesteryear.Feb 09 01:10
_goblinyour business model is changing....Feb 09 01:10
_goblinso the comment of "every distro is the same" inaccurateFeb 09 01:10
jono_goblin, every distro is the same in that we put things in at the last minuteFeb 09 01:11
jonowhich was the context of our discussionFeb 09 01:11
_goblinjust to be clear.....Feb 09 01:11
jonothe business model has also not really changedFeb 09 01:11
jonobut yes additional services have come into playFeb 09 01:11
_goblinso last minute decisions are what Canonical see's as offering a viable desktop environment to Windows?Feb 09 01:11
jonobut we have 300+ families to feed who work on free softwareFeb 09 01:11
jono_goblin, are you aware of how a distro is put together?Feb 09 01:12
jonoit seems we have a disconnectFeb 09 01:12
_goblinand the business model has changed....unless Im wrong and Ubuntu One has been around since day one.Feb 09 01:12
_goblinJono: Please don't patronize me....Feb 09 01:12
_goblinJono: You fully understand the point I am making about gimpFeb 09 01:12
jono_goblin, I am not, I am asking a question - do you understand how it works?Feb 09 01:12
jonobecause it seems you expect us to have all decisions made before feature freezeFeb 09 01:12
_goblinJono: this is not a case of which version is packaged...this is a major decision about leaving out (or including) a package which is mainstay of many Linux distro.Feb 09 01:13
jono_goblin, indeed, but that all happens before FFFeb 09 01:13
jonolet me give you an exampleFeb 09 01:13
oiaohm_We do expect clear reporting on what features are going to be in and what features are not going to be in.  jonoFeb 09 01:13
_goblinthats what I was trying put across.Feb 09 01:13
oiaohm_Even before feature freese on the Linux kernel we know if X or Y features are going to be in there and what z features are still up in air.  Due to good reporting jonoFeb 09 01:14
jonoin Karmic we didnt make the final decision about shipping Empathy until the very last minute, we really wanted to ship Empathy as it is good for the project and GNOME, but there were stability issues, so we waited until as late as possible to make the best decisionFeb 09 01:14
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jonothat kind of thing happens a lot in UbuntuFeb 09 01:14
_goblinand if enterprise was to consider an Ubuntu deployment would it not make sense for Canonical to let people know so an informed and planned decision could be made about deployment.Feb 09 01:14
jonooiaohm_, see plans at 09 01:15
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jonothat outlines all blueprints and you can see which ones are planned for LucidFeb 09 01:15
oiaohm_Note I said reporting.Feb 09 01:15
jono_goblin, I really genuinely don't wish to be patronizing, and I apologize if you felt I was earlier, but I think it could be useful for you to familiarise yourself with the development process in the different distrosFeb 09 01:16
jonothey all basically work the sameFeb 09 01:16
oiaohm_jono: Ubuntu need to work on there media side big time.Feb 09 01:16
jonooiaohm_, maybe you could help with this?Feb 09 01:17
jonowe are always keen to see community contributionsFeb 09 01:17
oiaohm_Really it not something I can change.   Its part how the site is layed out.Feb 09 01:18
jonooiaohm_, why not? we have plenty of opportunity for that - just join the docs teamFeb 09 01:18
oiaohm_Me write docs.Feb 09 01:19
oiaohm_Are you mad.Feb 09 01:19
jono?Feb 09 01:19
oiaohm_I have dyslexia and very bad grammar.Feb 09 01:19
_goblinJono: I have no interest in the development process of Ubuntu or any distro and the suggestion that "it could be useful" to me is both insulting and patronizing.  The question (and point) was rather simple, for a decision as big as removing Gimp and its replacement, it is very late in the day for Canonical to still be considering their options....the same goes for OO in the UNR..10.04 is a landmark release and possibly a turningFeb 09 01:19
_goblin point for Canonical....Feb 09 01:19
oiaohm_I am 100 percent not a doc writer.Feb 09 01:19
jonoodd, you seem to do well hereFeb 09 01:19
oiaohm_Stay here long enough.Feb 09 01:19
oiaohm_Some days I do well other days I do bad.Feb 09 01:20
-BNtwitter/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] #Ubuntu #GNU #Linux Still Discussing UNE Applications 9.10 Working Well 09 01:20
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oiaohm_  Good point to look at is how KDE does there annoncements of what is coming.  jonoFeb 09 01:20
phIRCe-BNcTitle: KDE - KDE Announcements .::. Size~: 41.85 KBFeb 09 01:20
oiaohm_Then find me Ubuntu equal done well.  Note that is on the KDE front page for a reason.Feb 09 01:21
jono_goblin, right, so you have no interest in understanding why we have the development process that we have, that was forged from years of experienced software professionals putting it together, in the interests of having an informed debate - if you are not interested in understanding another persons perspective and instead just want to rely on misinformation and your own assumptions, feel free to have that discussion with someone else, because I am nFeb 09 01:21
jonoot going to have itFeb 09 01:21
jonoI am always keen to talk to those with opposing and challenging viewpoints, but not those unwilling to explore others viewpoints tooFeb 09 01:21
-BNtwitter/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] #Nokia 's Linux Phones Get Pole-Dancing Robots 09 01:22
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_goblinJono: Not in the context of the debate about Gimp - No.  Read the blogs of the testers of the alpha's who are still confused as to why Gimp appears....Please don't put words into my mouth....You know exactly the point I am making and trying your best to answer it with company line comments.Feb 09 01:22
oiaohm_At the alpha release point KDE is already creating descriptions of upcoming changes.   jono.   This means people understand what is going on.Feb 09 01:23
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Ender20701f u c4n r34d th1s u r34lly n33d t0 g37 l41dFeb 09 01:23
jono_goblin, okFeb 09 01:23
jonoenjoyFeb 09 01:23
oiaohm_Biggest issue is Ubuntu is leaving to to blogs and other spreed out times.  So people don't have a big picture point.  jonoFeb 09 01:23
-BNtwitter/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] #Android / #Linux Best Hits, New Bargain 09 01:24
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_goblinjono: Ok...since that didn't go anywhere (I could have got that answer from your twitter) how about you give us YOUR opinion on if Gimp should remain?Feb 09 01:24
Ender2070lol  “I think Microsoft named .Net so it wouldn’t show up in a Unix directory listing.”Feb 09 01:24
-BNtwitter/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] #GNU #Linux Tablets with Free Software or Google Own Stack 09 01:25
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yuhongAbout problems with the abbreviation OOXML.Feb 09 01:26
_goblinjono: YOUR opinion on Gimp going or staying? (second time asking)Feb 09 01:26
jono_goblin, I am not being drawn into a discussion with someone who is unwilling to explore viewpoints other than their own - learn to open your mind a little and I will tell you all the viewpoints I have in the worldFeb 09 01:26
_goblineh?Feb 09 01:27
oiaohm_The problem I think with Ubuntu is the same problem gnome has jono.  Lack of paid resources working on it.Feb 09 01:27
_goblinI am asking if you think Gimp should stay or go....I think it should stay....Feb 09 01:27
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oiaohm_Really the gimp at the end of this year will address most of the problems people have complained about gimp for.Feb 09 01:28
jonookFeb 09 01:28
-BNtwitter/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] #Interview with #PCBSD Guy Reveals Relationship with #FreeBSD #bsdFeb 09 01:28
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jonolet me explain my viewFeb 09 01:28
jonoand then I am done with this conversationFeb 09 01:28
_goblinand I am "opening my mind" - attempt to cheapen no2.....since I am asking for your opinion....not guessing or putting words into your mouth (like you did to me)Feb 09 01:28
jonothis is *my* viewFeb 09 01:28
_goblinokFeb 09 01:28
jonook, you accuse me of putting words in your mouth?Feb 09 01:28
jonoI am done hereFeb 09 01:29
_goblinso no opinion?Feb 09 01:29
jono_goblin, what does it matter?Feb 09 01:29
jonowhat does it matter what *I* think?Feb 09 01:29
jonoyou have made up your mindFeb 09 01:29
_goblinabout what?Feb 09 01:29
oiaohm_You have just stated how a lot of people using ubuntu fell.Feb 09 01:30
jonoyou wont even learn how we put the distro togetherFeb 09 01:30
jonoyou wont even learn the process before questioning itFeb 09 01:30
oiaohm_jono: Feb 09 01:30
_goblinplease quote me where I have made up my mind about anything here?Feb 09 01:30
-BNtwitter/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] Libraries and #Literature Set Free with Libre Software, Books 09 01:30
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jono_goblin, the whole conversationFeb 09 01:30
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oiaohm_Jono a lot of people fell the development of Ubuntu is having nothing to do with what they want.Feb 09 01:30
oiaohm_If that is not addressed.  Ubuntu will have long term problems.  jonoFeb 09 01:30
jonoyou clearly dont know how ubuntu is put together, and if you learned how we put it together and then disagreed then fineFeb 09 01:30
jonoI am not opposing opposing views, I am opposing ignorance paraded as opposing viewsFeb 09 01:31
jonowhich is why I suggested you soak up how we make the distro and then we debate itFeb 09 01:31
_goblinjono: and theres your example....Im not interested in the dev process of any distro because we are talking about a Major decision, the inclusion or not of Gimp...I put it out there that a decision such as this should not be left so say otherwise..fine.Feb 09 01:31
oiaohm_How is not only point that is important.  jonoFeb 09 01:31
jono_goblin, why dont we have a chat on the phone to discuss thisFeb 09 01:31
oiaohm_KDE learnt a big leason with KDE 4.0Feb 09 01:31
jonoI am happy to call youFeb 09 01:31
jonocan you msg me your numberFeb 09 01:32
_goblinjono: you say you don't know about Gimp answer....thats fine too......Im after having YOUR opinion on if YOU think Gimp should be included.Feb 09 01:32
oiaohm_jono: If you don't have clear understanding between end users and people making the selections everything will explode in face.Feb 09 01:32
jonolets get on the phone and I will give you my view in fullFeb 09 01:32
_goblinjono: You may not be aware but I prefer to stay anon.....Feb 09 01:33
_goblinjono: thats not a reflection on you, its because of my non-IT related job.Feb 09 01:33
oiaohm_Not like I am anno.  Since I am the only person i know who uses this handle.  jonoFeb 09 01:33
_goblinjono: its why there are certain topics in BN that I can't comment on.....Feb 09 01:33
jonoI dont see why we can discuss it in one callFeb 09 01:34
oiaohm_The selection to go over gimp did not seam to most people very well talked about.   Not to end users.  It seamed to be a selection by packages.Feb 09 01:34
jonoit is as simple as this:Feb 09 01:34
jonothis is my viewFeb 09 01:34
_goblinok..Feb 09 01:34
jonoand what I find infuriating is that my here *are* my viewsFeb 09 01:34
oiaohm_Now my issue is commuination.  jonoFeb 09 01:35
jonoI made it very clear three and a half years ago that *I dont spin lines*Feb 09 01:35
jonoI am here to be a healthy middleground for the community and canonicalFeb 09 01:35
jonoso, this is my view:Feb 09 01:35
jonothe gimp is awesomeFeb 09 01:35
oiaohm_Ubuntu is growing the same problem they called debian for when they split off.  jonoFeb 09 01:35
jonowe all love itFeb 09 01:35
jonoits a great tool and a valuable tool on the discFeb 09 01:35
_goblinnever said you did...but we all have to represent our companies/organizations in a professional way that does not go against company line.Feb 09 01:35
jonobut in our commitment to shipping one CD, we have limited spaceFeb 09 01:36
_goblinthats fair enough.Feb 09 01:36
jonoso we performed an evaluation of what users needFeb 09 01:36
jonoand what people use ubuntu forFeb 09 01:36
jonowe came to the conclusion that Ubuntu would be a more valuable distro if it had a kick-ass video editor in itFeb 09 01:36
oiaohm_Yet that evaluation does not seam to include end users.  Or at least end users don't understand what you are basing it onFeb 09 01:36
jonoit would mean that people could be creative in a different way with ubuntuFeb 09 01:36
_goblinok...thats fine....Feb 09 01:37
jonoand that the gimp was only ever a click away in the software centerFeb 09 01:37
jonothis is my view tooFeb 09 01:37
_goblinagreed.Feb 09 01:37
jonoI think that we need to get ubuntu ready for videoFeb 09 01:37
jonowe need to face the integration niggles and details of making pitivi rockFeb 09 01:37
jonoin karmic we took a leap for empathyFeb 09 01:37
oiaohm_Big problem I have here.   For video I use blender.Feb 09 01:37
jonobecause we wanted to put it on stage and give it exposure to help it developFeb 09 01:37
jononow we want to do the same for pitiviFeb 09 01:37
jonothere is no conspiracyFeb 09 01:37
oiaohm_You are aware that blender and gimp join?  jonoFeb 09 01:38
jonothere are no liesFeb 09 01:38
_goblinnever said there was.Feb 09 01:38
jonoit is a simple decision around what our users wantFeb 09 01:38
jonobut the problem is that people in here dont ask thatFeb 09 01:38
_goblin?Feb 09 01:38
oiaohm_But you did not show how you choose what users want.  jonoFeb 09 01:38
oiaohm_That is your biggest problem jonoFeb 09 01:38
_goblinIve been asking for what you just said for the last 1/2 hour....Feb 09 01:38
jonopeople just assume through backbiting that we are screwing themFeb 09 01:38
oiaohm_Its not just how something is done.  jonoFeb 09 01:38
_goblinwho?Feb 09 01:38
jono_goblin, you were asking through a thick veil of incinuationFeb 09 01:39
oiaohm_Its that people can see that the process is transparent and fair.  jonoFeb 09 01:39
_goblinjono: I resent that.Feb 09 01:39
_goblinjono: It is incorrectFeb 09 01:39
jono_goblin, well, I resent being told I put words in your mouth so we are at 1-1Feb 09 01:39
_goblinjono: would you like me to link my recent articles where I praise canonical?Feb 09 01:39
oiaohm_How was the software selected.   jonoFeb 09 01:39
jono_goblin, I hang out here not because I want to get spat at but because I want to understand the views of the projectFeb 09 01:39
jonoI *want* to hear opposing viewpointsFeb 09 01:39
oiaohm_Vote of maintainers or some other true gathering of usage data.  jonoFeb 09 01:40
jonoI want to hear when people dont like what we do because I feel it shapes me better as a community managerFeb 09 01:40
jonoand I feel like I have tried to learn and participateFeb 09 01:40
_goblinjono: and the putting words into my mouth was in reference to you suggesting that I was not interested in Distro comment was merely in the context of the gimp question which you have answered.Feb 09 01:40
oiaohm_Now true usage data just publish it and people like _goblin will accept it.Feb 09 01:40
jonoand listen to peopleFeb 09 01:40
oiaohm_You know the problem with just listern to people.Feb 09 01:40
jonobut it would be nice if people here would be keen to listen toFeb 09 01:40
_goblinjono: Never said otherwise.Feb 09 01:40
jonoand to hear why we do things and understand them fully and then debate if neededFeb 09 01:41
oiaohm_The smallest sections of a population are louder.  jonoFeb 09 01:41
jononow, I am doneFeb 09 01:41
jonoI am going to go and do emailFeb 09 01:41
oiaohm_jono: the problem is solve able.Feb 09 01:41
_goblinbye!Feb 09 01:41
Ender2070jono, kubuntu +1Feb 09 01:41
oiaohm_If the slection not to go gimp is based on some data just publish the data.  problem gone.  jonoFeb 09 01:41
jonoI am not expecting everyone to agree with me, and I am not expecting everyone to agree with Ubuntu, but I am expecting that we can all have an informed debateFeb 09 01:41
jonoand I will continue to hang out here and to try and understandFeb 09 01:41
jonoand I hope it helps us all understandFeb 09 01:42
oiaohm_Now if it just maintainer selection without data backing it up.  There will be problems.   jonoFeb 09 01:42
jonook folks, laterFeb 09 01:42
_goblingood of him to engage in that....Feb 09 01:42
_goblinhowever.....Feb 09 01:42
oiaohm_I guess you problem is the same as me.Feb 09 01:42
oiaohm__goblin: Feb 09 01:42
_goblin?Feb 09 01:42
oiaohm_Ie lack of transpancy.Feb 09 01:42
_goblinah....Feb 09 01:42
-BNtwitter/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] Many Companies Collaborate on Free/Libre Rendering Engine 09 01:43
oiaohm_If they have valid data ie that users are not using gimp but using X so that is why they are removing gimp from disk.Feb 09 01:43
phIRCe-BNcTitle: WebKit still receiving contributions from Nokia, Apple, Google and Rim .::. Size~: 15.45 KBFeb 09 01:43
_goblinIm convinced its going now....Feb 09 01:43
oiaohm_We would not be able to argue right.Feb 09 01:43
_goblinGimp that is.Feb 09 01:43
oiaohm_My problem I fear lot of Ubuntu software selections are happening for what maintainers want.  Not users.Feb 09 01:44
_goblinIve got £100 for the charity of anyone's choice here if Gimp is present in 10.04.Feb 09 01:44
-BNtwitter/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] #Sun 's Hosting to Stay, Moving to Another Area 09 01:45
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_goblinWhat Jono couldn't seem to understand is that the removal of Gimp would be a long term decision....or at least a 6 month one....I can appreciate about disk space, but does that mean that Mono will never be in future Ubuntu's?  Wheres the killer app for that which everyone is wanting, and if thats not the case is Canonical going to refuse Mono in future releases?Feb 09 01:47
-BNtwitter/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] Free/Libre #VoIP Software Trailblazers/Leaders Named;jsessionid=0W2XZSUMRTMMFQE1GHRSKHWATMY32JVNFeb 09 01:47
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-BNtwitter/#boycottnovell-[qu1j0t3] "Wealth" guru Ray "can't afford bond". So, sit in jail like anyone else! 09 01:49
-BNtwitter/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] Free/Libre Software Released by Paradigm Works 09 01:49
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_goblinI also resent the "spat at" comment....nobody here was doing that....infact most users here have had praise at some point for the Ubuntu desktop......I even stood up to be counted when it was rumoured Ubuntu may carry proprietary closed source apps.....I agreed with Ubuntu One on Windows......nobody here (and certainly not me) was spitting at Jono.Feb 09 01:49
-BNtwitter/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] List of Free/Libre Office Suites to Replace OOXML Trap #odfFeb 09 01:50
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jono_goblin, if you resent a comment from me, I would love you to sit in my shoes for a few says in hereFeb 09 01:51
-BNtwitter/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] #FreeSoftware Cheer Stories from #Australia 09 01:51
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oiaohm_Big thing jono and those miss is mono applications take less disk space but end more unfreeable ram.  So make livecd's less functional.Feb 09 01:52
-BNtwitter/#boycottnovell-[_goblin] I will go on record.After the discussion I have had I'm convinced Gimp will NOT be present in 10.04,I stand to be corrected/embarrased laterFeb 09 01:52
-BNtwitter/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] #FreeSoftware Goes More International 09 01:53
phIRCe-BNcTitle: ur1 Generator .::. Size~: 2.26 KBFeb 09 01:53
phIRCe-BNcTitle: SourceForge turns off "blanket blocking" - The H Open Source: News and Features .::. Size~: 31.07 KBFeb 09 01:53
oiaohm_Simple point jono have you noticed that Ubuntu live cd are needing more and more ram to get stuff done.  Feb 09 01:53
-BNtwitter/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] #Mozilla #Thunderbird 3 is Reviewed, 3.1 in Alpha 09 01:56
phIRCe-BNcTitle: Mozilla Thunderbird 3 review from TechRadar UK's expert reviews of Other software .::. Size~: 59 KBFeb 09 01:56
phIRCe-BNcTitle: Mozilla releases Thunderbird 3.1 Alpha 1 - The H Open Source: News and Features .::. Size~: 32.49 KBFeb 09 01:57
_goblinjono: That may be the case, but I have not discredited you, infact after your interview with Roy (if you care to look at my blog) was far from damning of it.Feb 09 01:57
_goblinjono: I have repeatedly supported Ubuntu.  The problem for me comes (like oiaohm says) in relation to transparency...hence my "Lucid" comment.Feb 09 01:58
jono_goblin, I think if you spend some time looking at how we put together Ubuntu you would find it reassuringFeb 09 01:59
_goblinjono: and if memory serves, the removal of Gimp was hardly what people wanted according to a poll on Ubuntus own forums.Feb 09 01:59
jonobut I am not going to deny that we make decisions that you dont approve ofFeb 09 01:59
jono_goblin, we dont make decisions based on forums pollsFeb 09 01:59
jonowe make decisions on what we feel is best for our usersFeb 09 01:59
jonoand if you dont like that there is no gimp, just install it from software centerFeb 09 02:00
jonoit is really no big dealFeb 09 02:00
_goblinjono: but thats the point....the end user IS the most important loose support of them what have you got?Feb 09 02:00
jono_goblin, ubuntu is not a democracyFeb 09 02:00
jonoit never has beenFeb 09 02:00
_goblinjono: " on what we feel is best for our users" where do we see that ethos?Feb 09 02:00
jono_goblin, throughout the competent development team that builds ubuntuFeb 09 02:01
jonoI have confidence in our dev teamFeb 09 02:01
jonoand we discussed it openly at UDSFeb 09 02:01
jonoand it is not like we are banning GIMP from ubuntuFeb 09 02:01
jonowe still package it in mainFeb 09 02:01
_goblinJono: "ubuntu is not a democracy" Im sorry I was under the impression it was community minded development that aimed (unlike other firms) to provide a desktop that users wanted.Feb 09 02:01
jonoit still gets security updatesFeb 09 02:01
jonoit is just not on the diskFeb 09 02:01
jono_goblin, it is, but it is not a democracyFeb 09 02:01
jonoand it never will beFeb 09 02:01
_goblinjono: so your userbase has no say?Feb 09 02:01
jonobecause democracy doesnt make great softwareFeb 09 02:02
jonoI never said thatFeb 09 02:02
jonobut I trust our developers more than a poll on the forumsFeb 09 02:02
jonoubuntu is a meritocracyFeb 09 02:02
_goblinahFeb 09 02:02
_goblinbut in the end you do "what we feel is best for our users"Feb 09 02:02
_goblinjust to confirm.Feb 09 02:02
jonoyes, based upon our meritocratic usersFeb 09 02:02
jonooopsFeb 09 02:03
_goblinthank you.Feb 09 02:03
jonomeritocratic devsFeb 09 02:03
Ender2070sounds like communismFeb 09 02:03
-BNtwitter/#boycottnovell-[davidgerard] @_Goblin they've already declared Gimp won't be in 10.04, haven't they? @mpt?Feb 09 02:03
jonowe have a development team who have become a dev team because of their excellent work and we trust their judgement to make decisions on behalf of our user baseFeb 09 02:03
_goblinthats fine.Feb 09 02:04
-BNtwitter/#boycottnovell-[_goblin] @davidgerard Not according to Jono Bacon.Feb 09 02:04
-BNtwitter/#boycottnovell-[_goblin] @davidgerard Unless you know something I havent read.Feb 09 02:04
_goblinif you are wondering what that tweet was, it was in relation to Gimp.....Mr Gerard seems to think its already been decided.Feb 09 02:04
_goblinmaybe Ive missed the official word....Ive been very busy with work for the week.Feb 09 02:05
jonoit was decided at UDSFeb 09 02:06
_goblinjono: Ok. I accept (and respect) your stance on Gimp.  Should Gimp be removed, what would be YOUR alternative for it (or indeed what alternatives are being considered currently)Feb 09 02:06
jonobut there is certainly the possibility the decision may be changed if PiTiVi is not right for LucidFeb 09 02:06
jono_goblin, you mean an alternative for image editing?Feb 09 02:07
_goblinyes.Feb 09 02:07
jonoI think the current proposal of building some limited image editing features into F-spot or EOG makes senseFeb 09 02:07
jonomost people just want to flip images, remove red eye and resizeFeb 09 02:07
_goblinfair enough - thanks for answering.Feb 09 02:07
jonono worriesFeb 09 02:07
_goblinbut then those features can be solved (for my requirements) in web based apps anyway....Feb 09 02:08
Ender2070how useful is a video editor on a livecdFeb 09 02:08
jono_goblin, very possiblyFeb 09 02:08
_goblinI couldn't answer, I have no need for vid editing live cd or not.Feb 09 02:08
schestowitz[01:59] <jono> _goblin, we dont make decisions based on forums pollsFeb 09 02:08
schestowitz[01:59] <jono> we make decisions on what we feel is best for our usersFeb 09 02:08
schestowitzHuh?Feb 09 02:08
jonoschestowitz decisions about ubuntu features and where we target engineering resources is not based on forums pollsFeb 09 02:09
cubezzzinstalls shouldn't be too fat Feb 09 02:09
_goblinso then whats the point of a poll?Feb 09 02:09
schestowitzjono: ah, OKFeb 09 02:09
jonoit is based on what the meritocratic development community thinks will meet the needs of most usersFeb 09 02:09
cubezzzthere's a lot of stuff on my old fc1 that I don't useFeb 09 02:09
schestowitzBut it was a contradictionFeb 09 02:09
jono_goblin, the devs dont set up the polls :)Feb 09 02:09
schestowitzBTW, I am not against you or UbuntuFeb 09 02:10
jonoschestowitz I know, pal :)Feb 09 02:10
schestowitzI am _with_ youFeb 09 02:10
jonoand we respect your support schestowitz :)Feb 09 02:10
schestowitzI'm just trying to help myself and other see the dangers being facedFeb 09 02:10
jonoit is an exciting time to for UbuntuFeb 09 02:10
cubezzzawwww, group hug :)Feb 09 02:10
jonothe future is looking awesomeFeb 09 02:10
_goblinIm not with anyone or anything.....I'd just after a debate....Feb 09 02:10
jonothe new desktop work is excitingFeb 09 02:10
schestowitzI want all distros to succeedFeb 09 02:10
jonoschestowitz agreedFeb 09 02:10
jonowe are all on the same teamFeb 09 02:10
jono:)Feb 09 02:10
Ender2070I think kubuntu 9.10 is a huge improvement over its previous effortFeb 09 02:11
schestowitzSLED is closed source pretty much... and Microsoft's patent puppyFeb 09 02:11
schestowitzEnder2070: I'm using it nowFeb 09 02:12
schestowitzIt's greatFeb 09 02:12
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schestowitztop - 02:12:31 up 83 days, 23:43,  2 users,  load average: 0.02, 0.05, 0.16Feb 09 02:12
Ender2070I was testing it out, i like it tooFeb 09 02:13
_goblinjono: who set the proprietary question poll?Feb 09 02:13
jonono ideaFeb 09 02:13
_goblinjono: I don't either....I'll have to look for it...Feb 09 02:13
jonook, I am gonna go and work outFeb 09 02:14
jonobiaFeb 09 02:14
jonobiabFeb 09 02:14
jonotake care, allFeb 09 02:14
_goblinstrange:Feb 09 02:14
_goblinWe are trying to gather preferences for the apps that users would like to see in upcoming version of Ubuntu. While we all believe in the power of open source applications we are also very keen that users should get to choose the software they want to use. There are some great apps that aren't yet available to Ubuntu users and Canonical would like to know the priority that users would like to see them. This list is indicative notFeb 09 02:14
_goblin definitive and we would love to also read your suggestions in the free text box.Feb 09 02:14
_goblinso it appears Canonical wanted to know.Feb 09 02:14
_goblinmmFeb 09 02:15
_goblinbut it doesn't matter anyway because decisions will be made "on what we feel is best for our users"Feb 09 02:15
_goblinnow where have we heard that before.Feb 09 02:15
_goblinhypocrisy.Feb 09 02:16
oiaohm_Yep MS Novel.....  How far back should I stop?Feb 09 02:16
oiaohm_Its basically a list of companies that have made OS's that are either crap or are dead.Feb 09 02:17
-BNtwitter/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] #Rails 3 Gets Merb #rorFeb 09 02:18
phIRCe-BNcTitle: Rails 3.0 beta features merger with Merb framework - LinuxWorld .::. Size~: 37.65 KBFeb 09 02:18
_goblinWhat I can't understand is this "team" that Im supposed to be part of when if Im a Ubuntu user my voice doesn't count.Feb 09 02:18
-BNtwitter/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] #Mozilla 's #Ogg Advocacy Pays Off 09 02:19
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schestowitzoiaohm_: re Sun and accessibility: 09 02:19
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schestowitz[02:15] <_goblin> but it doesn't matter anyway because decisions will be made "on what we feel is best for our users"Feb 09 02:20
oiaohm_That is lower than sun past funding schestowitzFeb 09 02:20
schestowitzSome leaders (notorious ones) said it about their citizensFeb 09 02:20
schestowitzIt's a way of asserting controlFeb 09 02:20
_goblinschestowitz: and we are still none the wiser about Gimp "but there is certainly the possibility the decision may be changed if PiTiVi is not right for Lucid"Feb 09 02:20
schestowitzLike I say, "I work in the spirit of the constitution, so I needn't pass it via congress"Feb 09 02:21
schestowitzLike Bush and Cheney did recentlyFeb 09 02:21
_goblinschestowitz: So they are taking it out, but then again they might not.Feb 09 02:21
_goblinschestowitz: Thats cleared that one up then.....Feb 09 02:21
_goblinRoy, "I might be a millionaire......but there is also a posibilty I am not" ----- Yep makes perfect sense to me.Feb 09 02:22
schestowitzHeh.Feb 09 02:22
schestowitzPiTiViFeb 09 02:22
schestowitz 09 02:22
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_goblinWe all know though Gimp is out......cut through company line....thats the bottom line.Feb 09 02:23
_goblinand a lovely space left for Mono apps.Feb 09 02:23
_goblinbut dont worry everyone.......they are doing whats best for sit back and suck it up.Feb 09 02:24
-BNtwitter/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] List of #GNU #Linux Geometry Applications, #GIMP Plugins 09 02:25
phIRCe-BNcTitle: 5 Useful and Fun GIMP Plug-ins  Make Tech Easier .::. Size~: 53.02 KBFeb 09 02:25
_goblinFor once Roy, I am so pleased you log this channel.Feb 09 02:25
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cubezzzno mono on fc1 :)Feb 09 02:27
cubezzzdun dun DUNFeb 09 02:27
-BNtwitter/#boycottnovell-[_goblin] @davidgerard Jono says its out..BUT "but there is certainly the possibility the decision may be changed if PiTiVi is not right for Lucid"Feb 09 02:28
Ender2070no mono in f12Feb 09 02:28
Ender2070dun dun DUNFeb 09 02:28
cubezzzheh :)Feb 09 02:29
cubezzzI use that tooFeb 09 02:29
-BNtwitter/#boycottnovell-[_goblin] @davidgerard So we are none the wiser. "its out, but it may not be"Feb 09 02:29
Ender2070f13 is gonna kick assFeb 09 02:29
cubezzzwhen it's due?Feb 09 02:29
Ender2070btrfs time machineFeb 09 02:29
Ender2070may/juneFeb 09 02:29
_goblinwon't they skip 13 for sake of superstition?Feb 09 02:30
_goblin;)Feb 09 02:30
schestowitzLike MicrosoftFeb 09 02:30
schestowitz11 alsoFeb 09 02:30
schestowitzOffice 10Feb 09 02:30
schestowitzOffice 12 (2007)Feb 09 02:30
schestowitzOffice 14 (2010 IIRC)Feb 09 02:30
schestowitzIllusion of leapsFeb 09 02:31
cubezzzmaybe they don't like odd numbersFeb 09 02:31
schestowitzHow to make it look like worthwhile "upgrade"Feb 09 02:31
schestowitzSuper Ultra Duper EditionFeb 09 02:31
oiaohm_Will they get the generic one is as well. ie dm snapshoting. _goblinFeb 09 02:31
schestowitzcubezzz: odd is preserved to their CEOFeb 09 02:31
oiaohm_Opps.Feb 09 02:31
cubezzzVista ULTIMATEFeb 09 02:31
cubezzzremember the capsFeb 09 02:31
oiaohm_Will they get the generic one is as well. ie dm snapshoting.  Ender2070Feb 09 02:31
cubezzzultimate what though :)Feb 09 02:32
schestowitzcubezzz: don't shout :-)Feb 09 02:32
_goblinit was certainly the ULTIMATE #failFeb 09 02:32
Ender2070i dont think so, the feature is proposed for btrfsFeb 09 02:32
schestowitzWe get it... it can run an animation in the wallpaper pat...Feb 09 02:32
Ender2070its super cheap for the filesystem to do snapshotsFeb 09 02:32
schestowitzUltimate: Ultimately we'll get it right..... in the next version, we promiseFeb 09 02:32
schestowitzIs Vista in the pan yet?Feb 09 02:33
schestowitzWill they make SPs for it?Feb 09 02:33
cubezzzthere's that mac ad "Broken Promises"Feb 09 02:33
schestowitzSP3?Feb 09 02:33
schestowitzOr are its buyers screwedFeb 09 02:33
schestowitzAnd pushed to move to Service Pack 7?Feb 09 02:33
cubezzzULTIMATEly they can't really make a good dozeFeb 09 02:33
schestowitzPaid 'fix'Feb 09 02:33
Ender2070vista7 sp1 is being testedFeb 09 02:33
cubezzzI've see some of the code :)Feb 09 02:33
cubezzzsome GNU stuff is also badFeb 09 02:34
schestowitzcubezzz: the joke predates Apple's adsFeb 09 02:34
cubezzzbut at least we can change stuffFeb 09 02:34
schestowitzVista 7 is being tested tooFeb 09 02:34
oiaohm_Really the worse GNU thing has been the complier being bad.Feb 09 02:34
schestowitzMicrosoft is selling evaluation copiesFeb 09 02:34
schestowitzSome people buy the SP7 to run it for a fewFeb 09 02:34
schestowitz 09 02:34
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schestowitz 09 02:34
oiaohm_Lot of the updates coming for gcc will improve it function a lot.Feb 09 02:35
schestowitz 09 02:35
schestowitzIt's all goodFeb 09 02:35
phIRCe-BNcTitle:  Windows 7 stability update makes PCs unstable, users report .::. Size~: 131.58 KBFeb 09 02:35
schestowitzIt's working... cause they are finding bugsFeb 09 02:35
schestowitzThey found 'battery killing' bugsFeb 09 02:35
schestowitzIt's good that they catch all those bugs from testersFeb 09 02:35
schestowitzThey can iron it out before version+XFeb 09 02:35
schestowitzThe good thing Microsoft did is, they managed to get a lot of people to believe the test build is a final thingFeb 09 02:36
schestowitzSome people paid for itFeb 09 02:36
schestowitzOthers managed to test it free of chargeFeb 09 02:36
schestowitzRCFeb 09 02:36
schestowitzExpires soonFeb 09 02:36
schestowitzReboot every 2 hours to cool down the dying battery, of courseFeb 09 02:37
cubezzzI have a few gcc versions on this boxFeb 09 02:37
cubezzzsometimes I have to use older gccFeb 09 02:37
cubezzzexpired dozeFeb 09 02:38
cubezzzwell, they are all about $$$ of courseFeb 09 02:38
schestowitz "@schestowitz To be fair, Andrew King was not a Director, VP or C-level executive at Alfresco. He is, however, a good sales rep and nice guy"Feb 09 02:39
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cubezzzI can't find any ARM laptops on ebayFeb 09 02:39
cubezzzsorry, not quite true, there was _one_Feb 09 02:40
cubezzz400 mhz jobFeb 09 02:40
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cubezzztiny screen thoughFeb 09 02:40
_goblinIm not seeing Jono's ethos of "what we feel is best for our users" being echoed on the Canonical site.  I quote: "We believe the open source community simply creates better software. Our community enables us to increase our development capacity many times over. Everyone collaborates. As a result, we deliver higher quality, more secure and more easily integrated software. And we do it more frequently than others do."Feb 09 02:40
cubezzzgoogle send me a valentine's card, lolFeb 09 02:43
cubezzzsentFeb 09 02:43
*schestowitz jealousFeb 09 02:43
oiaohm_ Our community enables us to increase our development capacity many times over.  << Notice the focus on our.Feb 09 02:43
schestowitzMaybe Google wants intercourse w/ youFeb 09 02:43
cubezzzummmFeb 09 02:43
cubezzzthey sent me $100 free advertising cardFeb 09 02:44
schestowitzDid Google send flowers? :-)Feb 09 02:44
cubezzzno :)Feb 09 02:44
schestowitzcubezzz: of, that scamFeb 09 02:44
schestowitzThey sent me one tooFeb 09 02:44
schestowitzStrings attachedFeb 09 02:44
cubezzzoh wellFeb 09 02:44
schestowitzAs the saying gos, "first one's free"Feb 09 02:44
cubezzzwell as long as they don't require a credit cardFeb 09 02:45
schestowitzIt was so messy to start with that I wasted time and gave up in angerFeb 09 02:45
schestowitzThey just want you to put your bank details in their DBFeb 09 02:45
schestowitzSo they can start charging youFeb 09 02:45
cubezzzhrmmmFeb 09 02:45
schestowitz[02:45] <cubezzz> well as long as they don't require a credit cardFeb 09 02:45
schestowitzThat's the thingFeb 09 02:45
schestowitzThey DOFeb 09 02:45
schestowitzI was annoyed more than anything by itFeb 09 02:45
cubezzzok, I'll probably not bother thenFeb 09 02:46
schestowitzI wish they never sent the turdFeb 09 02:46
-BNtwitter/#boycottnovell-[_the_mad_hatter] Damn the Leafs!Feb 09 02:46
_goblinRight...I'm off.....good night all...Feb 09 02:46
schestowitzcubezzz: maybe it would be OK if you did want to advertiseFeb 09 02:46
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cubezzzyeahFeb 09 02:47
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*ender2070 is running 4.4 :PFeb 09 02:54
schestowitzfinal?Feb 09 02:55
ender2070yesFeb 09 02:55
ender2070 09 02:57
phIRCe-BNcTitle: Not a web page! Aborting image/png type .::. Size~: 0 KBFeb 09 02:57
schestowitzNew text effectxFeb 09 02:58
schestowitzI saw that in kseigo's blogFeb 09 02:58
-BNtwitter/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] KDE 4.4 is out 09 03:00
phIRCe-BNcTitle: Not a web page! Aborting image/png type .::. Size~: 0 KBFeb 09 03:00
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ender2070 09 03:21
phIRCe-BNcTitle: KDE 4.4 Final in Fedora 12 | .::. Size~: 8.42 KBFeb 09 03:21
ender2070I wrote about itFeb 09 03:23
ender2070added 2 more screen shotsFeb 09 03:23
ender2070tabbed window groupingFeb 09 03:24
ender2070and bloglioFeb 09 03:24
-BNtwitter/#boycottnovell-[anivar] RT @jithesh_e_j: RT @slashdot: Oracle Drops Sun's Commitment To Accessibility 09 03:28
phIRCe-BNcTitle: Slashdot News Story | Oracle Drops Sun's Commitment To Accessibility .::. Size~: 91.06 KBFeb 09 03:28
ender2070I hope y'all saw it, I am delaying its publishing till official release of KDEFeb 09 03:33
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schestowitzgnFeb 09 03:54
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-BNtwitter/#boycottnovell-[_the_mad_hatter] @_Goblin If you don't play it on skates, it isn't a real sport.Feb 09 04:09
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cubezzza strange thing happened to me todayFeb 09 05:51
cubezzzI couldn't talk to my router and I couldn't rmmod ip_tablesFeb 09 05:52
cubezzziptable_nat            23192   1 (autoclean)Feb 09 05:53
cubezzzip_conntrack           31336   1 (autoclean) [iptable_nat]Feb 09 05:53
cubezzzip_tables              15904   3 [iptable_nat]Feb 09 05:53
cubezzzcould not rmmod any of those modules, even in init 1Feb 09 05:54
cubezzzI'm thinking a module got corrupted maybeFeb 09 06:00
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Ender2070 09 06:03
cubezzzis there a way to see which process is using which module?Feb 09 06:11
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-BNi/#boycottnovell-[sagarun/@sagarun] using xmllint to parse and validate xml documents against DTD 09 06:27
phIRCe-BNcTitle: xmllint .::. Size~: 15.12 KBFeb 09 06:27
-BNtwitter/#boycottnovell-[qu1j0t3] Yaron Minsky "Ppl get connected to their programming language... like they get connected to nothing except their text editor" Jane St #ocamlFeb 09 06:28
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-BNtwitter/#boycottnovell-[qu1j0t3] "One of the luxuries we have...we don't hire bad programmers. & when you don't hire bad programmers, many things become easier." @YMinskyFeb 09 06:42
-BNtwitter/#boycottnovell-[qu1j0t3] "F# does not perform well for symbolic code. And the reason is, it has to allocate too much." Yaron Minsky #ocaml #programming #fpFeb 09 06:43
-BNtwitter/#boycottnovell-[qu1j0t3] >@hyperlocavore RT @seanbedlam: So happy there are many Aussie fans of #SarahPalin. // ugh, good to know. racist place. was in #iraqFeb 09 06:44
DaemonFCthe judge ruled that my friend is a legal permanent resident after 3 hearings and 4 years of fighting the systemFeb 09 06:58
DaemonFCand she can apply for citizenship in 5 yearsFeb 09 06:58
DaemonFCmillions of illegal aliens knowingly and intentionally hop the fence and break our laws and when someone wants to do the right thing, the government fucks them over for yearsFeb 09 06:59
DaemonFCeverything I've come to expectFeb 09 06:59
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DaemonFC"your payee (the mental health center) decides what you get and as long as you eat, sleep, shit, and wear clothes, the government won't stop them from doing anything, watch them forge the ledgers and receipts, put in $50,000 coffee pots and $20,000 toilet seats to make the books come out even while they're pocketing half your money"Feb 09 07:07
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DaemonFC-Me talking to someone I know that's gone on SSDIFeb 09 07:07
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-BNtwitter/#boycottnovell-[davidgerard] Peter Tatchell's PM petition not to pay for the Pope's UK visit please forward everywhereFeb 09 08:12
phIRCe-BNcTitle: Introduction to e-petitions | .::. Size~: 11.79 KBFeb 09 08:12
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schestowitzHmmmmmm.......Feb 09 09:19
schestowitzAre comments in BN working?Feb 09 09:20
DaemonFCschestowitz, I'd like to nominate Bethesda for buggiest video games of all timeFeb 09 09:34
DaemonFCwhere do I do that? :)Feb 09 09:34
DaemonFClmaoFeb 09 09:37
DaemonFC"64bit is a bonus, and I have not benchmarked it - in truth it will only be available in snow leopard or better, at that point you have a relatively modern mac..."Feb 09 09:37
DaemonFCX86-64 has been around for five years and Snow Leopard is just starting to support itFeb 09 09:38
DaemonFCI really don't get what the deal is with Macs, I used on a few years ago at Best Buy for 20 minutes when I was trying to decide whether to stay on PC or not and the first 5 minutes was managing to crash it and having a salesperson reset it for meFeb 09 09:39
-BNi/#boycottnovell-[satipera/@satipera] Germany, Europe, and the states facing debt defaults. Interesting article on EU finance crisis and what it means for EU. 09 09:42
phIRCe-BNcTitle: Germany's Choice  | STRATFOR .::. Size~: 53.64 KBFeb 09 09:42
schestowitzGermany too???Feb 09 09:46
schestowitzI thought they were a lot better off based on some economistsFeb 09 09:46
schestowitzWell, maybe China will bail out the West :-)Feb 09 09:46
-BNtwitter/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] RT @satipera Germany, Europe, and the states facing debt defaults. Interesting article on EU finance crisis... 09 09:52
phIRCe-BNcTitle: Germany's Choice  | STRATFOR .::. Size~: 53.64 KBFeb 09 09:52
DaemonFCschestowitz, well, at least we'll all die together, as friends? right? *grin*Feb 09 09:53
DaemonFCCoalition of the Indebted Feb 09 09:53
DaemonFC 09 09:54
phIRCe-BNcTitle: 16 month old Flash bug plagues Mac, Linux, PC - MAC.BLORGE .::. Size~: 40.15 KBFeb 09 09:54
DaemonFCApparently Linux users don't have a PCFeb 09 09:55
DaemonFCI must remember to name this thing that I have running LinuxFeb 09 09:55
-BNi/#boycottnovell-[sagarun/@sagarun] Dating your colleague? Make it work! - ( via shivaranjan )Feb 09 09:57
DaemonFCschestowitz, I have my reservations about <video>Feb 09 09:59
DaemonFCwill it end up being just another advertisement tool?Feb 09 09:59
cubezzzI'm sure it will, to some degreeFeb 09 10:00
cubezzzin the 50's tv shows had the name of the product in the show's nameFeb 09 10:01
DaemonFCcubezzz, I'd actually prefer thatFeb 09 10:01
cubezzz"Colgate Presents the blanky blank show"Feb 09 10:01
DaemonFCwell, other than it would ruin the show on DVD tooFeb 09 10:01
cubezzzDisney DVD anyone? :)Feb 09 10:02
-BNtwitter/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] United Nations and World Bank Help @BillGates and #Microsoft Colonise #Africa #monsanto #gmo #corruptionFeb 09 10:03
phIRCe-BNcTitle: United Nations and World Bank Help Bill Gates and Microsoft Colonise Africa | Boycott Novell .::. Size~: 107.35 KBFeb 09 10:03
DaemonFCcubezzz, The great thing about stand-alone hardware has always been that once they finalized it, they couldn't go back and add more DRM to it laterFeb 09 10:03
DaemonFCBlu-Ray changes thatFeb 09 10:03
*Ksebsebseb3 is now known as sebsebsebFeb 09 10:04
DaemonFCyou hook it up to the internet, or put a new blu ray disc in it, it can update the player firmwareFeb 09 10:04
sebsebseboiaohm_ about?Feb 09 10:04
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DaemonFCMicrosoft has been telling people for years that eventually there won't be any discs, games just get downloadedFeb 09 10:05
DaemonFCI'd like to know how that's going to workFeb 09 10:05
sebsebsebPyscial CD's and DVD's take up spaceFeb 09 10:05
cubezzzdon't connect your bluray to the internetFeb 09 10:06
sebsebsebwould be good if we could just legally download stuff,  but right  sure we can, but at the moment, useually to do that means DRMFeb 09 10:06
sebsebsebit can be pretty nice to have the pshyical product, but not alwaysFeb 09 10:06
sebsebsebalso as far as I know Blue Ray is rather propritary and can't even get it to legally work with Desktop Linux at the moment?Feb 09 10:07
cubezzzwe can, there's nothing that will stop usFeb 09 10:07
sebsebsebwell I suppouse a Windows virtual machine would work, but I meant nativelyFeb 09 10:07
cubezzzcheck with doom9, they pretty much have it all figured outFeb 09 10:07
cubezzzeven so, I still tell people to buy mediaFeb 09 10:09
sebsebsebHD is pft anywayFeb 09 10:09
sebsebsebI don't seem to see itFeb 09 10:09
cubezzzyou need an HDTVFeb 09 10:09
sebsebsebnext big thing will be 3D TV, already seen some BBC Click stuff about thatFeb 09 10:09
cubezzzthey do good nice Feb 09 10:09
sebsebsebyes we have a HDTV Feb 09 10:09
sebsebseband it's 40 inchFeb 09 10:09
sebsebsebpoint is I don't seem to see the difference between HD and standard TVFeb 09 10:09
cubezzzyou got to be jokingFeb 09 10:09
cubezzz1920x1024?Feb 09 10:10
sebsebsebit's probably on the thing it's meant to beFeb 09 10:10
cubezzzcompared to stanard res which is at most 640x480?Feb 09 10:10
cubezzzok, I assume you have seen 1080i?Feb 09 10:11
cubezzzno comparisonFeb 09 10:11
sebsebsebhell I watched Avater 3D in the cinema,  with some 3D glasses on, and wellFeb 09 10:11
sebsebsebI didn't seem to notice 3D there, like before,  go back 10 years  or so, and  yeah it's right there in front of the eyesFeb 09 10:11
sebsebsebwell they have changed 3D cinema a bit now it seemsFeb 09 10:12
cubezzzok, I was just talking about HDTV not 3dFeb 09 10:12
cubezzzit's fake 3d anyways :)Feb 09 10:12
sebsebseband I am talking about not seeing stuff that I am meant to be seeingFeb 09 10:12
cubezzztrue 3d would be a real time hologramFeb 09 10:12
DaemonFCI seem to remember a way to watch Blu Ray movies on LinuxFeb 09 10:12
DaemonFCthe drive itself works, burning a BD-R worksFeb 09 10:12
sebsebsebHD and Blue Ray and all thatFeb 09 10:13
sebsebsebit will be old technology soon ishFeb 09 10:13
sebsebseb3D TV is comingFeb 09 10:13
cubezzzit's still a 2d screenFeb 09 10:13
sebsebsebin fact some pubs in the UK are  going to show some 3D football game or something yeahFeb 09 10:13
sebsebseblater this yearFeb 09 10:13
sebsebseband people will wear the glassesFeb 09 10:13
sebsebseband it will be on a proper 3D TVFeb 09 10:13
DaemonFC3d TVs won't happen soon unless you mean stereoscopic 3dFeb 09 10:13
sebsebseb3D TV's are coming it seems the start of that is this yearFeb 09 10:14
sebsebseband all this stuff is propritary,   new ways for the companies to make even more moneyFeb 09 10:14
cubezzzyes, like that old video game subroc-3Feb 09 10:14
sebsebseband then they hype up their new stuffFeb 09 10:15
sebsebsebthat's how it worksFeb 09 10:15
sebsebseband people fall for it and buy itFeb 09 10:15
cubezzzHDTV was a decent update for TVs thoughFeb 09 10:16
DaemonFCsebsebseb, 09 10:16
cubezzzplus now we have Linux TVs :)Feb 09 10:16
sebsebsebanyway HD TV is a bit sucky for usFeb 09 10:16
sebsebsebsince the TV providerFeb 09 10:16
sebsebsebnot that much HD stuffFeb 09 10:17
cubezzzsebsebseb, it sounds like you aren't getting any 1080i channels maybe?Feb 09 10:17
sebsebsebwe are getting basic HD stuff I guessFeb 09 10:17
sebsebsebBBC HD and then some  HD stuff on demand as wellFeb 09 10:17
sebsebsebour TV provider sucks reallyFeb 09 10:18
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cubezzzAntenna is coming back into vogueFeb 09 10:19
cubezzzbut I'm in a good locationFeb 09 10:20
cubezzzbetween Toronto and BuffaloFeb 09 10:20
sebsebsebI am not sure why you liked to that  cubezzz  Batman films are alright yeah, but Batman was overly hyped before as wellFeb 09 10:21
sebsebseblinked to liked aboveFeb 09 10:21
cubezzz?Feb 09 10:21
sebsebsebcubeezz whoops wrong oneFeb 09 10:21
cubezzzok :)Feb 09 10:22
sebsebsebI meant DaemonFC so yeah see above youFeb 09 10:22
sebsebsebalso I think  stuff like that isn't  meant to be on YoutubeFeb 09 10:22
DaemonFCthe 3d tv :PFeb 09 10:22
sebsebsebyeah probably about half of the stuff or more on Youtube isn't meant to be on theirFeb 09 10:24
sebsebsebsince copyrightFeb 09 10:24
cubezzzI liked Spiderman 2, surprisinglyFeb 09 10:24
cubezzzI liked the depiction of Dr. OctopusFeb 09 10:24
sebsebsebI like a lot of movies, but I can also appreciate low budget moviesFeb 09 10:24
sebsebsebsome of which are pretty goodFeb 09 10:24
DaemonFCI wonder if anyone uploaded Hard CandyFeb 09 10:24
DaemonFCthat was a twisted movieFeb 09 10:24
sebsebsebwhere as quite a lot of people basically  only watch or tend to only watch BlockbustersFeb 09 10:25
cubezzza lot of them are just mindless violenceFeb 09 10:25
DaemonFCcubezzz, A lot of the really low budget movies are more entertainingFeb 09 10:25
cubezzzlike what?Feb 09 10:25
DaemonFCthe big budget stuff is just too perfectFeb 09 10:26
DaemonFCcubezzz, Clerks is the best example I can think ofFeb 09 10:26
DaemonFC$25,000 production budget :)Feb 09 10:26
oiaohm_sebsebseb:  back eventounally.Feb 09 10:26
cubezzzRobot Monster :)Feb 09 10:26
sebsebseboiaohm_ that Jono stuff from last night was interesting to readFeb 09 10:26
sebsebsebno Jono in the channel right now or  goblin though so uhmmFeb 09 10:27
DaemonFCcubezzz, The problem is that you can't get specialty stuff on DVD anymore unless you go onlineFeb 09 10:27
DaemonFCWalmart muscled out all the specialty movie and music storesFeb 09 10:27
sebsebseboiaohm_   I read through that earlierFeb 09 10:27
DaemonFCnow you don't get anything locally that hasn't been heavily censoredFeb 09 10:28
sebsebsebanyway  Ubuntu is starting to target  the average consuemr moreFeb 09 10:28
sebsebsebpeople who want to get away from WindowsFeb 09 10:28
sebsebsebwith qute a lot of them wanting to do a bit of basic photo editing and maybe video edtingFeb 09 10:28
sebsebsebUbuntu isn't for geeks anymore!Feb 09 10:28
sebsebsebit never really was in the first placeFeb 09 10:28
DaemonFCsebsebseb, Targeting any other market than that is stupid if you want desktop usersFeb 09 10:29
sebsebsebthere are other apps that could replace F-Spot so Mono doesn't have to be on the CDFeb 09 10:29
oiaohm_My problem here sebsebseb that is there target.  But I don't see any research backing up there actions.Feb 09 10:29
sebsebsebDaemonFC exactlyFeb 09 10:29
DaemonFCDebian has been around for years and makes a horrible desktopFeb 09 10:29
sebsebsebDaemonFC  they want to make money, so they need to target the average consumer more, and make business users happyFeb 09 10:29
DaemonFCit can be a desktop, but the process to make it work as one is so involved that nobody wants to do itFeb 09 10:29
sebsebsebDebian as a horrible desktop  never tried it out properly as a desktop, butFeb 09 10:30
sebsebsebthe way Debian does releasse's seems off puttingFeb 09 10:30
sebsebsebI meanFeb 09 10:30
sebsebsebstable with rather old packagesFeb 09 10:30
oiaohm_How do you target the average consumer if you don't have the data?  sebsebsebFeb 09 10:30
sebsebsebor testing with newer stuff that might brakeFeb 09 10:30
DaemonFCmostly what got me on Ubuntu in the first place was how outdated everything in Debian was and that the more up to date Debian-based distros were like Mepis and LinspireFeb 09 10:30
sebsebsebyeah plus Debian has Iceweasel now instead of FirefoxFeb 09 10:31
oiaohm_OpenOffice and Firefox and other on interface design these days are learning the importance of having the data.   sebsebsebFeb 09 10:31
sebsebsebaverage people don't want that, they want "real" FirefoxFeb 09 10:31
DaemonFCI got a free Linspire CD and went to install it, and then found out that they wanted subscription money so I could access their apt repositoryFeb 09 10:31
sebsebsebUbuntu has a ppa or whatever now for Firefox 3.6Feb 09 10:31
sebsebsebthey should really sort this outFeb 09 10:32
sebsebsebso people can easilly get later new versions of programs from the repoFeb 09 10:32
oiaohm_sebsebseb: Average people use IE in large numbers as well.  Feb 09 10:32
oiaohm_So iceweasel name issue is not that big of one. sebsebsebFeb 09 10:32
DaemonFCIf it wasn't for Ubuntu, I could probably live with Debian Testing, but even there things can go wrongFeb 09 10:32
sebsebseboiaohm_  sure, but most/all of those that go to Desktop Linux will want FIrefox not "that Iceweasel thing"Feb 09 10:32
sebsebsebnow days some will want Chrome actsaulleyFeb 09 10:33
oiaohm_Where is the research data to that sebsebsebFeb 09 10:33
DaemonFCsebsebseb, The IceWeasel thing is not importantFeb 09 10:33
sebsebseband I am talking about default installs hereFeb 09 10:33
DaemonFCit has the same features, uses the same add-ons, the only difference is name and artworkFeb 09 10:33
oiaohm_This is the problem most of Ubuntu actions are guess work.  sebsebsebFeb 09 10:33
DaemonFCI don't think the average user would even care if that's the only thing out of placeFeb 09 10:33
sebsebsebDaemonFC well it doesn't help much with browser  market share, if your going around the web using Iceweasel with that user agent stringFeb 09 10:33
oiaohm_Why did they make unstable pulseaudio default?  sebsebsebFeb 09 10:34
DaemonFCsebsebseb, It still says the Gecko version and suchFeb 09 10:34
sebsebseboh the web would have been pretty great by now, if Internet Explore hadn't messed that upFeb 09 10:34
oiaohm_It make no logical sence to do that.Feb 09 10:34
sebsebsebGoogle are starting to stop suppouring IE 6 a lot moreFeb 09 10:34
DaemonFCsebsebseb, I would think that most places would just group all Mozilla-ish browsers togetherFeb 09 10:34
sebsebseband  that  browser choice screen will be coming to European Windows users, next monthFeb 09 10:34
oiaohm_sebsebseb:  If you look at Ubuntu actions over and over again.  We are including this because it cool.Feb 09 10:34
DaemonFCthe differences between IE 6 and IE 7 are minimalFeb 09 10:35
oiaohm_Why include compiz that is know to break with many different opengl programs.  sebsebsebFeb 09 10:35
sebsebsebDaemonFC really to improve the web, a standards complaint rendering engine has to be the most used,  and web developers need to know thatFeb 09 10:35
DaemonFCsebsebseb, There were frontends to IE 6 that let you use tabs and ad blockingFeb 09 10:35
oiaohm_When you get down the the basics.  Most users just want a default web browser that works.  sebsebsebFeb 09 10:36
DaemonFCthat's really the only substantive difference with it and IE 7Feb 09 10:36
oiaohm_A machine that runs stable.Feb 09 10:36
sebsebsebDaemonFC and  they can check out their website statistics to see what browsers are going on their site, but not all web developers know what Iceweasel is for exampleFeb 09 10:36
DaemonFCsebsebseb, It's Mozilla's fault for heckling Debian and working with Ubuntu to clear things up in a civil mannerFeb 09 10:37
oiaohm_Most web sites don't detect a difference between iceweasel and firefox.Feb 09 10:37
DaemonFCUbuntu's Firefox has all the patches that go into Debian's IceWeaselFeb 09 10:37
DaemonFCDebian is a big reason why Firefox on Linux doesn't suckFeb 09 10:37
DaemonFChell of a way for Mozilla to have said thank youFeb 09 10:37
sebsebseboiaohm_ in the website statistics it will still say  Iceweasel not FirefoxFeb 09 10:37
*amarsh04 uses Debian unstable with kde held back at 3.5.10Feb 09 10:37
sebsebsebDaemonFC Debian is a big reason why Firefox sucks on distros?Feb 09 10:38
oiaohm_And using KDE 4 beside Iceweasel in menu it simple reads web browser.Feb 09 10:38
sebsebsebDeamonFC oh doesn't suckFeb 09 10:38
oiaohm_Exactly what more does the user need to know sebsebsebFeb 09 10:38
DaemonFCsebsebseb, I was reading a list of things Debian fixed so Firefox works better on Linux, and it was a long list of really substantive thingsFeb 09 10:39
sebsebseboiaohm_   I still think it's best for most web users to be using FirefoxFeb 09 10:39
sebsebsebafter all some sites are still IE only out thereFeb 09 10:39
sebsebseband FIrefox is the number 2Feb 09 10:39
sebsebseband has most market share, than any version of IE on it's own I readFeb 09 10:39
sebsebseb,but with other verisons of IE, IE still has mostFeb 09 10:39
oiaohm_There is only one major difference between real firefox and iceweasel.Feb 09 10:39
DaemonFCsebsebseb, Mozilla develops Firefox in a very Windows-centric wayFeb 09 10:39
sebsebseboiaohm_ yeah the user agent stringFeb 09 10:39
oiaohm_No other than user agent string.Feb 09 10:40
sebsebsebthe logoFeb 09 10:40
DaemonFCand Linux distros have had to fix things that broke because they were only ever made to work on WindowsFeb 09 10:40
sebsebseband default themeFeb 09 10:40
amarsh04some parts of KDE 4.X aren't ready yet... k3b for KDE 4.X only just appeared in Debian Unstable, Rosegarden is a build-yourself package and Quanta is a long way from ready for KDE 4.XFeb 09 10:40
oiaohm_Tracking information is missing in iceweasel.  sebsebsebFeb 09 10:40
sebsebseboiaohm_ tracking hrm?Feb 09 10:40
sebsebsebamarsh64 yeah quite  a few or a lot of people using KDE 3 stillFeb 09 10:41
sebsebsebamarash64  I have been reading some stuff here and there recentlyFeb 09 10:41
oiaohm_Mozilla uses advertisement funding.  That goes against one of Debian rules.  Hello where the fight comes from sebsebsebFeb 09 10:41
sebsebseboiaohm_ maybe so, but if I was to run Debian,  I  would  put real Firefox in thereFeb 09 10:41
DaemonFCsebsebseb, 09 10:41
phIRCe-BNcTitle:  » Blog Archive   » Facts about Debian and Mozilla® Firefox® .::. Size~: 73.77 KBFeb 09 10:41
oiaohm_I have not bothered sebsebsebFeb 09 10:42
sebsebsebor if I was lazy I could just change the Iceweasel user agent to the Firefox one, but that would be lieing realy, since I woudn't be using Firefox :DFeb 09 10:42
oiaohm_I normally install useragent switcher anyhow sebsebsebFeb 09 10:42
DaemonFCthe long long list of patches made by Debian to make Firefox not suck on LinuxFeb 09 10:42
DaemonFCthat's jsut as of Firefox 2Feb 09 10:42
oiaohm_sebsebseb:  ie to get me into sites that are not firefox or iceweasel url friendly.  sebsebsebFeb 09 10:42
sebsebsebexacty that's another thingFeb 09 10:42
sebsebsebsome sites will block IceweaselFeb 09 10:42
oiaohm_Some goverment sites here you have to return netscape 7 and 6 strings to get in sebsebsebFeb 09 10:42
sebsebseb,but Firefox no problemFeb 09 10:43
oiaohm_More sites block both sebsebsebFeb 09 10:43
sebsebsebthat's the kind of thing I meant as well, when I was saying how loads of web developers won't know what Iceweasel is, or whatever I saidFeb 09 10:43
DaemonFCDebian has to unfuck Firefox to even get it to build on many non-x86 architecturesFeb 09 10:43
amarsh04sometimes midori or webkit's gtkLauncher works where firefox/iceaweasel has problemsFeb 09 10:43
amarsh04np: Philip Glass - Heroes SymphonyFeb 09 10:44
sebsebsebDaemonFC as for Mozilla develloping FIrefox for Windows users mainly, that sounds about rightFeb 09 10:44
sebsebsebfor example how their is a slighlty differnet themeFeb 09 10:44
sebsebsebwhen it's run on XP  or when it's run on VistaFeb 09 10:44
oiaohm_sebsebseb:  More and more web developers want to build sites to standard.  Feb 09 10:45
DaemonFCFirefox uses a GTK+ mask, if you remove that it looks like ass on LinuxFeb 09 10:45
DaemonFC:DFeb 09 10:45
oiaohm_So the importance of browser is fading sebsebsebFeb 09 10:45
oiaohm_If your browser cannot handle standard more and more sites will just lock you out.Feb 09 10:45
sebsebseboiaohm_ as for Ubuntu I guess it's like Gnome and KDE and so on, they assume users want this and that,  so  they put in those features,  actsaully with Gnome  they seem to put developers first,  for example that  re write of GDM that can't be themed like the old oneFeb 09 10:45
sebsebseboh I guess same thing for Grub really, what was wrong with the old Grub nothing?  ,but now we got that Grub 2 re write, which people are having issues withFeb 09 10:46
amarsh04my optical drive was having problems reading the Philip Glass cd - I washed the cd and rinsed it with demineralised water, and leaving water on the disk when putting it in the drive actually helped, maybe that helped remove dirt from the drive lensFeb 09 10:46
oiaohm_KDE is different.Feb 09 10:46
DaemonFC"The main difference by that time was the extensions manager, which, in Debian, needed a lot of changes to actually act as it should, especially with globally installed extensions. I’m not saying the Debian one was perfect, it also had its own problems, but that was a whole lot less than the blatant crap that was the official one, obviously written for Windows without any thoughts for unix, and especially linux distributions."Feb 09 10:46
DaemonFC:)Feb 09 10:46
oiaohm_Ok KDE sometimes has major communication problems.Feb 09 10:46
amarsh04at least with grub there are several very dedicated and helpful developersFeb 09 10:46
oiaohm_IE KDE 4.0 was a class level 10 screwup.Feb 09 10:46
sebsebsebyeah KDE 4 is uhFeb 09 10:48
sebsebsebaltough now I can use  it as a DEFeb 09 10:48
oiaohm_Most KDE features are based on user requests.    You can track where the feature was requested.   Hated features also based on user feed back disappear.  sebsebsebFeb 09 10:48
sebsebsebwithout going back to Gnome so soon after wouldsFeb 09 10:48
sebsebseband  I run Konverstion in GnomeFeb 09 10:48
sebsebseband  here and there will be some other KDE apps as wellFeb 09 10:48
amarsh04grub2 works on XO1 (OLPC), Yeelong (the MIPS-based netbook that Richard Stallman uses), powerpc, sparc and x86Feb 09 10:48
DaemonFC 09 10:49
phIRCe-BNcTitle: mjg59: So it's been pointed out that since I'm  .::. Size~: 85.95 KBFeb 09 10:49
amarsh04probably others tooFeb 09 10:49
oiaohm_KDE 4.0 event was truely caused by feature requests people were asking for to be done to 3.5Feb 09 10:49
sebsebseboh we got people that aren't happy that Gimp is being removed from Ubuntu and blah de balhFeb 09 10:49
sebsebseb,butFeb 09 10:49
sebsebsebthat's 10.04Feb 09 10:49
oiaohm_That was impossiable.  sebsebsebFeb 09 10:49
sebsebsebI am already thinking about 10.10Feb 09 10:49
sebsebseband  11.04 myselfFeb 09 10:49
sebsebsebwhen it comes to Gnome 3Feb 09 10:49
oiaohm_That is what most people are not aware of.  People might tar and feather KDE at times.  But it is trying todo what people are requesting.  sebsebsebFeb 09 10:49
sebsebsebGnome 3 might be like KDE 4 to begin withFeb 09 10:50
amarsh04Grub had to be unbroken to support folks such as myself running a boot hard disk bigger than what the BIOS seesFeb 09 10:50
sebsebsebwith not many users happy with itFeb 09 10:50
oiaohm_Unlikely  sebsebsebFeb 09 10:50
sebsebseboiaohm_ Why do you think that?Feb 09 10:50
DaemonFCsebsebseb, I'd think that most people would agree with me when I say that I'd rather have a program that works right and integrates with the surrounding OS than have the program be named FirefoxFeb 09 10:50
DaemonFCthere's a way to remove Firefox branding from Firefox in UbuntuFeb 09 10:50
sebsebsebI think most users are happy with Gnome 2Feb 09 10:50
sebsebseband  well Ubuntu do itFeb 09 10:50
oiaohm_KDE 4.0 to enable providing the features that people were requesting in KDE 3.5 that were impossible they had to break backward compadiblity of the API.Feb 09 10:51
DaemonFCit then calls itself "Web Browser" and uses the generic globeFeb 09 10:51
sebsebsebediting of Gnome 2 here and there, next version is meant to have social featuresFeb 09 10:51
oiaohm_In the case of Gnome 3.  Gnome is not in that location.  sebsebsebFeb 09 10:51
sebsebseba distro could maintain Gnome 2 or  KDE 3 them selvesFeb 09 10:51
oiaohm_Ie Gnome 3 should be smooth unless Gnome developers decide to be insane.  sebsebsebFeb 09 10:51
DaemonFCsebsebseb, GNOME says they're keeping the present interface as an option for users who don't want the GNOME ShellFeb 09 10:51
DaemonFCso I feel good about upgrading to GNOME 3 when it's timeFeb 09 10:51
sebsebsebjust like they can maintain Grub legacy, which apparnatly Mandriva will be doing, since  I was told by someone on IRC, that  it will be used in their next oneFeb 09 10:52
DaemonFCGRUB Legacy is a mistakeFeb 09 10:52
sebsebsebDaemonFC ah yes I did read something like that, how they will  maintain Gnome 2Feb 09 10:52
sebsebsebfor a bitFeb 09 10:52
DaemonFCdepending on it, I mean, since it's now effectively a Mandriva programFeb 09 10:52
sebsebsebanyway I guess Gnome 3 won't be default in Ubuntu 10.10 since it will be to new then,  since it's getting released in SeptemberFeb 09 10:52
DaemonFCsebsebseb, It'll be there for years I'm sureFeb 09 10:52
sebsebsebmaybe it will be default in  11.04,  but if not that version, probably 11.11Feb 09 10:53
sebsebseb11.10 I meanFeb 09 10:53
sebsebseband then 12.04 is LTSFeb 09 10:53
oiaohm_Last time I went to the Grub site Grub 2 is not offically released yet.Feb 09 10:53
oiaohm_And that was due to outstanding bugs.Feb 09 10:53
DaemonFCsebsebseb, A lot of corporate users that don't want lots of money invested in retraining people means that the GNOME 2 interface will live on for probably -5-6 years yetFeb 09 10:53
oiaohm_The big reason for the KDE 4.0 chanageFeb 09 10:54
DaemonFCit's good enough, it's smart enough, and gosh darn it, people like it :DFeb 09 10:54
sebsebsebDaemonFC sounds good to me I like Gnome 2Feb 09 10:54
oiaohm_Was the request from corporates to use 1 application no matter the platform.Feb 09 10:54
sebsebsebaltough they have removed icons from the system menuFeb 09 10:54
sebsebseband some of placesFeb 09 10:54
oiaohm_KDE 3.5 is heavly stuck to X11.Feb 09 10:54
sebsebsebthat can be enabled in Karmic, but I did Lucid alpha 2 and well noFeb 09 10:54
sebsebsebthe thing to enable them got removed,  maybe can enable in gconf thoughFeb 09 10:54
DaemonFCyeah, KDE is never what you see on a desktop Linux for corporate use, it's just not appropriate, it changes too oftenFeb 09 10:54
sebsebsebKDE 3.5  is good as well,  would have been good if they maintained KDE 3  upstream as well, for a few years or so, but noFeb 09 10:55
DaemonFCchanges come in huge megapatchesFeb 09 10:55
sebsebsebDaemonFC oh I think that is one of the reasons for why Ubuntu is Gnome by defaultFeb 09 10:55
sebsebsebGnome is also rather keep it simple stupidFeb 09 10:55
DaemonFCdeploying a KDE upgrade is not fun, it just isn'tFeb 09 10:55
oiaohm_Be aware corporates are developing kde for corporates.Feb 09 10:55
sebsebsebeasy to useFeb 09 10:55
oiaohm_So DaemonFC you statements are kinda false.Feb 09 10:55
DaemonFCsebsebseb, A lot of changes happen in the background in GNOME, where the user doesn't see it happenFeb 09 10:56
oiaohm_The corporate funders understood the importance of breaking completely once to fix a major cross platform issue.Feb 09 10:56
sebsebsebsome people think the default Gnome look, looks like Windows 3.1 or somethingFeb 09 10:56
sebsebseb,but whateverFeb 09 10:56
DaemonFCthe ones you do see are small and a few at a timeFeb 09 10:56
sebsebsebit's goodFeb 09 10:56
oiaohm_Ok how hard has it been to upgrade from KDE 4.0 threw to KDE 4.4 DaemonFCFeb 09 10:56
oiaohm_The configurations there are stable.Feb 09 10:57
DaemonFCKDE basically took a wrecking ball to 3.x and released an untested unreliable KDE 4Feb 09 10:57
DaemonFCto the point that 2+ years later KDE 3 is still being carried in some distrosFeb 09 10:57
oiaohm_wrecking ball at the request of corprates.  DaemonFCFeb 09 10:57
sebsebseblatest PC Linux OS is still using KDE 3 by default as far as I knowFeb 09 10:58
sebsebseb,but the next one will have KDE 4 insteadFeb 09 10:58
DaemonFCI don't see why they'd junk an entire DE that almost always worked well when they could have just done some non-invasive surgery on problem areasFeb 09 10:58
oiaohm_Not possiable DaemonFCFeb 09 10:58
sebsebsebDaemonFC indeed they could have changed KDE 3 here and there, instead of just replaceing itFeb 09 10:58
oiaohm_you never been in the core code of KDE 3.5.  DaemonFCFeb 09 10:59
oiaohm_There were over 8 layers of hacks that are nuked with the new API's in KDE 4 DaemonFCFeb 09 10:59
sebsebsebDaemonFC they could also do that whilst  having KDE 4 for those who want itFeb 09 10:59
sebsebsebthen stop  doing KDE 3 in a few years or soFeb 09 10:59
oiaohm_Did KDE 3. support stop straight as KDE 4 was release no.Feb 09 11:00
oiaohm_It has kept support sebsebsebFeb 09 11:00
DaemonFCWell, I don't think they should have even called it 4.0 until it was at the point it is nowFeb 09 11:00
sebsebseboiaohm_  no I think upstream have stopped KDE 3, and if not only security updatesFeb 09 11:00
DaemonFCcalling something stable when it crashes all the time and has less features than the last version gets you a bad reputationFeb 09 11:00
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oiaohm_sebsebseb: KDE 3 due to it hacks there is no more room to add new features without risking major stablity problems..Feb 09 11:01
sebsebsebKDE 4.4 is out apparntly well not tryed that, but I guess even in that one,  certain good features are lacking that were in KDE 3Feb 09 11:01
sebsebsebwell there's a ppa for it for later Ubuntu's or remix CD, and only like one guy is doing thatFeb 09 11:02
oiaohm_DaemonFC: 4.0 was never called stable not by the developers.  But you are right.  4.0 and 4.1 really should not have existed without beta tags.Feb 09 11:02
DaemonFCand another thing, KDE 3.0 wasn't painful for KDE 2 usersFeb 09 11:02
sebsebsebanyway screw KDE except for some of it's apps in Gnome :DFeb 09 11:03
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sebsebsebKDE 4 is more geek to customize than KDE 3Feb 09 11:03
sebsebseband by a long wayFeb 09 11:03
sebsebsebfrom my experienceFeb 09 11:03
sebsebsebcan't just change the background easillyFeb 09 11:03
sebsebseblike GnomeFeb 09 11:03
sebsebsebetcFeb 09 11:03
sebsebsebcan't just moe icons around on the panel at the botom etcFeb 09 11:04
DaemonFCwell, I really hope that for the sake of KDE users that KDE 4 is a solid platform and they don't turn it into spaghetti code, or they'll have to go through this again in 6-8 yearsFeb 09 11:04
-BNtwitter/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] #EFF Defends #VoIP ; #Google , #Apple , and #BlackDuck Stifle Progress; #Microsoft Joins #RPX 09 11:04
phIRCe-BNcTitle: Patents Roundup: EFF Defends VoIP; Google, Apple, and Black Duck Stifle Progress; Microsoft Joins RPX | Boycott Novell .::. Size~: 102.96 KBFeb 09 11:04
sebsebsebDaemonFC what do you use?Feb 09 11:04
DaemonFCGNOMEFeb 09 11:04
sebsebsebalso what do you use oiaohm_ ?Feb 09 11:04
oiaohm_What is right click on desktop.  Select desktop settings change background too hard ?  sebsebsebFeb 09 11:04
sebsebseboiaohm_ that's what Gnome is likeFeb 09 11:05
sebsebseb,but KDE 4 noFeb 09 11:05
oiaohm_KDE 4.3 at moment.  sebsebsebFeb 09 11:05
sebsebsebwhen I triedFeb 09 11:05
oiaohm_KDE 4.3 it there. sebsebsebFeb 09 11:05
DaemonFCGNOME is modular, major features can be added or replaced without the user ever having to know anything except "This is working better for some reason"Feb 09 11:05
DaemonFCat least, during the years I've used it, that's been my impressionFeb 09 11:05
sebsebsebGnome is really easy to customizeFeb 09 11:05
sebsebsebunlike KDE 4Feb 09 11:05
oiaohm_Depend on what KDE version number sebsebsebFeb 09 11:06
sebsebsebI think it was 4.3Feb 09 11:06
sebsebsebanyway screw KDEFeb 09 11:06
oiaohm_KDE 4.3 is basically as simple as Gnome.Feb 09 11:06
sebsebsebI used to really hate KDE 4 as wellFeb 09 11:06
oiaohm_I have used both.Feb 09 11:06
sebsebsebuntill they made it a bit more like KDE 3Feb 09 11:06
oiaohm_Each version it gets more like KDE 3Feb 09 11:06
sebsebsebhate is a strong word so dislikeFeb 09 11:06
oiaohm_KDE 4.4 more of KDE 3.5 features are back.Feb 09 11:06
oiaohm_Its more the time to port them.Feb 09 11:07
-BNi/#boycottnovell-[satipera/@satipera] Iran works with international law and informs the IAEA of enrichment to 20%. It is still presented in the west as an Iranian infraction.Feb 09 11:07
DaemonFCa lot of projects have this idea that they're going to integrate everything to where you can't work one something without stepping on something elseFeb 09 11:07
DaemonFCthats where KDE and the original Mozilla Suite came fromFeb 09 11:07
DaemonFCit's what Windows doesFeb 09 11:07
sebsebsebDaemonFC what do you mean?Feb 09 11:08
DaemonFC*onFeb 09 11:08
DaemonFCsebsebseb, Microsoft can't get rid of IE or improve it, or make is better without wrecking thousands of Windows apps that embed itFeb 09 11:08
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DaemonFCone exampleFeb 09 11:08
sebsebsebbackwards compatabilityFeb 09 11:09
DaemonFCIE is part of the Windows platform, frozen APIs, you change how IE works because of some major security problem like the one just found and you break everythingFeb 09 11:09
DaemonFCLinux itself has a no stable API/ABI policy because of just such problemsFeb 09 11:10
oiaohm_KDE 4.0 is KDE developers drawing a line in the sand.Feb 09 11:10
oiaohm_The kernel has a stable API/ABI policy DaemonFCFeb 09 11:10
DaemonFCthey could freeze some now and developers might be happy, but then if security problems come forth years later, Linus can't fix the problem without breaking driversFeb 09 11:10
oiaohm_Really the driver issue is far more complex than what most people want to be trueful about.Feb 09 11:11
oiaohm_syscalls of Linux can be used in Linux kernel space.Feb 09 11:11
oiaohm_People love to forget that.Feb 09 11:11
oiaohm_Those are complier netural.   Internal API's of the Linux kernel are complier dependant.Feb 09 11:12
DaemonFCGreg K-H wrote a paper about it onceFeb 09 11:12
DaemonFC 09 11:12
phIRCe-BNcTitle: Linux:  Stable API vs. Not? : Greg Laden's Blog .::. Size~: 89.06 KBFeb 09 11:12
DaemonFC"You think you want a stable kernel interface, but you really do not, and you don't even know it."Feb 09 11:12
oiaohm_There are internal api's inside windows that windows driver developers are not allowed to touch either.Feb 09 11:13
oiaohm_Just linux ones look so nice and inviting because closed source driver developers can see them.  And the open source drivers get to short cut around having to use intermedit layers to sort out differences between compliers.Feb 09 11:14
DaemonFCyeah, the problem is that Linux is open source and can't hide them, and that Linux has no method of stopping them from being usedFeb 09 11:15
DaemonFCMicrosoft can refuse to sign the driver and BAM, you're finishedFeb 09 11:15
oiaohm_Really Linux does have a way.Feb 09 11:15
oiaohm_Have you notice the Linux kernel will refuse to load a driver build with the wrong gcc.Feb 09 11:16
oiaohm_Even if the kernel version is right.Feb 09 11:16
oiaohm_Linux has made it insanely hard to load a driver doing the wrong thing.  Very few companies have even been able todo it.Feb 09 11:16
DaemonFCyeah, you can override that though when you build the kernelFeb 09 11:17
oiaohm_Yet if you do.Feb 09 11:17
oiaohm_Some of the modules interfacing with the kernel from time to time will cause kernel panics.Feb 09 11:18
oiaohm_So its not worth you doing.Feb 09 11:18
DaemonFCand the whole system goes downFeb 09 11:18
DaemonFCwoohooFeb 09 11:18
oiaohm_So all distributions ship with it on.Feb 09 11:18
oiaohm_This is why Nvidia binary closed source and ATI closed source have to run a build interface parts each time.Feb 09 11:19
DaemonFCbecause it just wouldn't pay for one of them to say "Fuck it, let's switch it off to let all this old drivers work!"Feb 09 11:19
oiaohm_Otherwise they will not load.Feb 09 11:19
oiaohm_If they turn it off they have stacks of users complaining about broken so yes it does not pay at all DaemonFCFeb 09 11:20
DaemonFCATI needs to do something about FGLRXFeb 09 11:20
cubezzzcould the nvidia driver be unloaded and say the nouveau driver loaded without rebooting?Feb 09 11:20
DaemonFCthere has to be a way to make it less hell on wheels than it isFeb 09 11:20
oiaohm_In time no cubezzzFeb 09 11:21
DaemonFCcubezzz, ATI's FGLRX allows you to load it alongside "radeon"Feb 09 11:21
oiaohm_Reason framebuffer you text mode will be depending on nouveau running.Feb 09 11:21
oiaohm_FGLRX has been altered to be compadible with the in kernel memory mangement of card DaemonFCFeb 09 11:22
oiaohm_So there is compadiblity between the open source and closed.  DaemonFCFeb 09 11:22
oiaohm_Nvidia on the other hand does not work hand and hand with nouveau so is going to run into problems.Feb 09 11:22
oiaohm_The simplest way to remove the complete driver hell on wheels is the closed source drivers accept being locked to the syscall interface.  DaemonFCFeb 09 11:24
DaemonFCwell, any time you can get rid of a blob.... that's probably the only thing holding me back from another Nvidia cardFeb 09 11:24
DaemonFCsoon enough the open source stack will work with my Radeon and I'd still be in binary hell with Nvidia Feb 09 11:24
oiaohm_Most likely Nvidia driver with binary module in center no longer work.Feb 09 11:25
oiaohm_Due to nouveau getting to card first.  DaemonFCFeb 09 11:25
oiaohm_The tidy up of the Linux video stack basically is forcing closed source parts of drivers into userspace for graphical.Feb 09 11:25
DaemonFCyeah, I wasn't really pleased with the Nouveau performance in the driver that shipped with Fedora 11Feb 09 11:26
DaemonFCslow even on 2d, no 3d support at allFeb 09 11:26
DaemonFCit's something they can toss in there that's better than nv, and that's allFeb 09 11:26
amarsh04I've been impressed with the current radeon / dri2 / mesa stack... just under 1000 fps in glxgears with the onboard radeon3200hd and it is well-behaved with extremetuxracer, tuxkart, billard-gl and the likeFeb 09 11:26
DaemonFCglxgears is not a benchmarkFeb 09 11:26
DaemonFCB-)Feb 09 11:26
DaemonFCamarsh04, Also, it only reported 64 OpenGL extensionsFeb 09 11:27
amarsh04well, extremetuxracer and tuxkart are playable (-:Feb 09 11:27
amarsh04haven't counted them myselfFeb 09 11:27
DaemonFCamarsh04, FGRLX provides 81 :)Feb 09 11:28
oiaohm_DaemonFC:  you can really see the difference between a support driver and not supported.Feb 09 11:28
DaemonFCfull OpenGL 3.2 and shaders supportFeb 09 11:28
DaemonFCI might switch when Mesa 7.8 is out if it does what I need it toFeb 09 11:29
DaemonFCI may have to wait for 8.0Feb 09 11:29
oiaohm_  << End of DRI 1 support.Feb 09 11:29
phIRCe-BNcTitle: nouveau Wiki - FrontPage .::. Size~: 36.54 KBFeb 09 11:29
oiaohm_In time ATI will as well.  DaemonFCFeb 09 11:29
DaemonFCYeah, I'm not loving the DRI 1 driverFeb 09 11:29
DaemonFCbut it has better OpenGL supportFeb 09 11:29
oiaohm_Remember once the drivers are all pure DRI2 memory management is kernel space.Feb 09 11:30
DaemonFC 09 11:30
phIRCe-BNcTitle: mesa/mesa - The Mesa 3D Graphics Library .::. Size~: 24.77 KBFeb 09 11:30
DaemonFCis that what to watch?Feb 09 11:30
oiaohm_That has some of the good news.Feb 09 11:31
oiaohm_Ie llvm support for shader optimisation in.Feb 09 11:31
oiaohm_Some stuff like nouveau opengl support is still in a different branch to main mesa DaemonFCFeb 09 11:32
oiaohm_And via stuff is still also in a independant branch DaemonFCFeb 09 11:33
oiaohm_So intel and ATI status and old stuff is there.  DaemonFCFeb 09 11:33
oiaohm_DaemonFC:  start of evergreen support is under way for ATIFeb 09 11:35
-BNi/#boycottnovell-[satipera/@satipera] The son of NYT Jerusalem bureau chief decides to join the IDF instead of US Military. #israel #occupation #palestineFeb 09 11:42
phIRCe-BNcTitle: ei: New York Times fails to disclose Jerusalem bureau chief's conflict of interest .::. Size~: 27.61 KBFeb 09 11:42
-BNtwitter/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] “Pinta” comes from #Novell staff and software #patents tax (on SLE*) comes from #Microsoft in the form of vouchers 09 11:46
phIRCe-BNcTitle: More Mono and Patent Poison from Novell | Boycott Novell .::. Size~: 92.73 KBFeb 09 11:46
-BNtwitter/#boycottnovell-[_goblin] Ive been accused of trolling on my own blog....go figure...reason why? I dare to give MY opinion of Mono and its apps #mono #linux #fossFeb 09 11:56
oiaohm_  There are getting some very warped open source projects out there.Feb 09 11:56
phIRCe-BNcTitle: Open Luna Foundation .::. Size~: 14.69 KBFeb 09 11:56
-BNtwitter/#boycottnovell-[_goblin] I'd love to look at the concept of "self trolling" more closely but I have work.... :( I'll look at it when I return...Feb 09 11:57
*Diablo-D3 ( has joined #boycottnovellFeb 09 12:14
-BNtwitter/#boycottnovell-[zoobab] Members of European Parliament request ACTA documents under the Lisbon Treaty article 218 "Parliament fully informed": 09 12:21
phIRCe-BNcTitle: Digital rights: Members of European Parliaments ask when they will receive the ACTA documents .::. Size~: 30.65 KBFeb 09 12:21
oiaohm_wonder how long until someone gets warped in a court case.Feb 09 12:24
*kecskebak ( has joined #boycottnovellFeb 09 12:24
oiaohm_Ie cannot give document to other party in case because it protected by Digital Rights ManagementFeb 09 12:25
zoobabwho is Ie?Feb 09 12:26
-BNtwitter/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] #Microsoft wants to make the #medical records and management of patients a lot more dependent on #Windows 09 12:31
phIRCe-BNcTitle: Microsofts Hostile Takeover of the Healthcare System | Boycott Novell .::. Size~: 90.18 KBFeb 09 12:31
oiaohm_No person zoobab example.Feb 09 12:31
oiaohm_  Old rules of physical access still applyFeb 09 12:32
phIRCe-BNcTitle: Security chip that does encryption in PCs hacked - Yahoo! News .::. Size~: 107.18 KBFeb 09 12:32
Diablo-D3oiaohm_: if it exists, it can be hacked?Feb 09 12:40
Diablo-D3:DFeb 09 12:40
oiaohm_Only as long as you can get physical access.Feb 09 12:41
Diablo-D3even that isnt true.Feb 09 12:42
oiaohm_If it would self destruct or something could be near impossiable.  Diablo-D3Feb 09 12:42
Diablo-D3self destruction is still an unwanted action.Feb 09 12:42
oiaohm_Ie catch up with a deep space probe that is flat to modify it.  Even that it exists hacking it with current day tech is kinda not possiable.  Ie we don't have the tech to catch it.Feb 09 12:44
Diablo-D3not yetFeb 09 12:48
oiaohm_Not for a while yet.Feb 09 12:49
DaemonFCDRM is stupid to even try to use for just that reasonFeb 09 13:06
DaemonFCpeople have access to the file, it's only a matter of time before it's reverse engineered or worked aroundFeb 09 13:06
DaemonFCmaybe if 99.9% of users would never be able to crack it, then you only have to worry about 1 in 1000 people being able to crack itFeb 09 13:08
DaemonFCand there were millions of DRM'd iTunes files out thereFeb 09 13:08
Diablo-D3besides, no one wants to hack a deep space probeFeb 09 13:08
Diablo-D3its not like you can host child porn on it or somethingFeb 09 13:08
Diablo-D3IP cant handle extreme lag anyhowFeb 09 13:09
Diablo-D3it starts to massively fuck up when you have more than about 10 secondsFeb 09 13:09
DaemonFCDiablo-D3, Sure you'd want to hack itFeb 09 13:09
DaemonFChow else would you bring its phasers and photon torpedoes online? :)Feb 09 13:09
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DaemonFCchanging the subject, I'd like to know how FreeBSD is getting such an overhaul Feb 09 13:11
DaemonFCof course in some ways this only brings it on par with Linux 2.6 (the mmap() extensions finally being good enough for a 64-bit Nvidia driver)Feb 09 13:12
oiaohm_BSD is used in embedded devices as well.  DaemonFC even more fun some developers submit code to both FreeBSD and Linux.Feb 09 13:16
Diablo-D3oiaohm_: as a reminder, virtually everyone here has DaemonFC on ignoreFeb 09 13:19
DaemonFCas a reminder, Diablo-D3 is a megalomaniac and is actually referring to himself and hoping people I pay attention to will follow himFeb 09 13:21
DaemonFC:)Feb 09 13:21
sebsebsebNot sure why she is doing an article about Ubuntu 9.10 and Gnome 2 now, seems a bit  late to me,  anyway good read:  Also here's a comment 09 13:30
phIRCe-BNcTitle: Linux Today - Ubuntu 9.10 and GNOME 2.28: Advancing Past Meh .::. Size~: 74.55 KBFeb 09 13:30
sebsebseb 09 13:31
DaemonFCsebsebseb, Ubuntu 10.04 is mostly plumbing as far as I can tellFeb 09 13:31
sebsebsebWhat do you mean mostly plumbing?Feb 09 13:31
DaemonFCnothing drastic ends up in an LTSFeb 09 13:31
sebsebsebnewer kernelFeb 09 13:31
sebsebsebsocial featuresFeb 09 13:31
DaemonFClow level stuff that nobody seesFeb 09 13:31
sebsebsebsomething about a music storeFeb 09 13:31
sebsebseboh this one  they plan to have Facebook and Twitter featuresFeb 09 13:32
DaemonFCyeah, low risk stuff too, not likely to break stuffFeb 09 13:32
sebsebsebas in edits to GnomeFeb 09 13:32
DaemonFCsebsebseb, It's why they hurried and moved all the important stuff off of HAL in 9.10Feb 09 13:32
sebsebsebanyway alpha 3 is Feb 25th and I am looking forward to trying itFeb 09 13:32
sebsebsebsince it should be feature complete or pretty much feature completeFeb 09 13:32
DaemonFCgives them time to know if that breaks things before the LTSFeb 09 13:32
sebsebsebno HAL at all in 10.04 that's also the planFeb 09 13:33
DaemonFCrightFeb 09 13:33
sebsebseband yes indeed 9.10 is basically a test/ experiment Feb 09 13:33
sebsebsebtry stuff release before the LTSFeb 09 13:33
sebsebsebwhich would explain why Grub 2 and GDM got introducedFeb 09 13:33
sebsebsebas default'sFeb 09 13:33
DaemonFCI might stay on the LTS this timeFeb 09 13:33
sebsebseband the default Ext4 for clean installs as wellFeb 09 13:33
sebsebsebDaemonFC your on Ubuntu now?Feb 09 13:34
DaemonFCyeah, they cram major stuff into the 6 month releasesFeb 09 13:34
DaemonFCyepFeb 09 13:34
sebsebsebI might keep the other computer on 10.04  untill it's no longer supported or untill the next LTSFeb 09 13:34
DaemonFCyou really make things easier on yourself by having /home mounted on its own partitionFeb 09 13:34
sebsebsebyes I know about seperate /homeFeb 09 13:34
sebsebsebdon't think I bothered though when I re instaleld last time on other computer, since not really needed thereFeb 09 13:35
DaemonFCit's also hard to manage that with XFS tooFeb 09 13:35
sebsebsebGnome 3 well there should be a ppa for 10.04  around the time it comes outFeb 09 13:35
DaemonFCcan't shrink the partition later of / starts running lowFeb 09 13:35
DaemonFC*ifFeb 09 13:35
sebsebseband since Ubuntu are starting to add even more stuff  I don't want,  probably a good idea to stay on 10.04Feb 09 13:36
sebsebsebI don't want those social features myself, butFeb 09 13:36
sebsebsebmy older brother uses that install at the moment here and there, and well he might find them useflFeb 09 13:36
sebsebsebusefulFeb 09 13:36
sebsebsebas for Firefox we can keep that up to date our selfFeb 09 13:37
DaemonFCbling is just useless crap most of the time, but new kernel, GNOME, and everything else is what tempts meFeb 09 13:37
sebsebsebyeah plymouth for boot upFeb 09 13:37
sebsebsebI already got there on this computer with MandrivaFeb 09 13:37
sebsebseband oh it's rather niceFeb 09 13:37
sebsebsebalready got that aboveFeb 09 13:37
sebsebsebif 10.04's is like Mandriva's boot up, I will be happyFeb 09 13:38
sebsebsebif not hrmFeb 09 13:38
sebsebsebanyway alpha 3 not that long to go now :DFeb 09 13:38
DaemonFCMandriva is just weird lately, sticking to HAL, sticking to Grub Legacy, not moving to UpstartFeb 09 13:38
oiaohm_Really I am more interest to see what distribution gets lvm snapshots working perfectly.Feb 09 13:38
DaemonFCI keep figuring they'll do it, but they back out at the last minute even if it was in the specFeb 09 13:38
oiaohm_A working roll back feature will be useful at times.Feb 09 13:39
sebsebsebyou mean Mandriva back out?Feb 09 13:39
sebsebsebMandriva also have less developersFeb 09 13:39
DaemonFCyeahFeb 09 13:39
sebsebsebUbuntu has well it's developers, but also the Debian developersFeb 09 13:39
DaemonFCthey say in the spec they're moving to DeviceKit and don't do it, or that they're moving to GRUB 2 and Upstart, and don'tFeb 09 13:39
sebsebsebGrub 2 sucks reallyFeb 09 13:39
sebsebsebat the moment, for loads of usFeb 09 13:39
DaemonFCsticking with HAL, init, and Grub Legacy makes the system harder to deal withFeb 09 13:40
sebsebsebsurely that dependsFeb 09 13:40
sebsebsebalso it's them that's dealing with it not us?Feb 09 13:40
DaemonFCI never liked GRUB Legacy because it makes stupid assumptions Feb 09 13:40
sebsebsebwhat do you mean? such as?Feb 09 13:40
DaemonFCand it's more likely to corrupt your file systemFeb 09 13:40
sebsebsebwell apparnatly 9.10's Grub 2 you can't just   use it to boot up other distros as well, because of how Ubuntu has done itFeb 09 13:40
DaemonFCoh, as the system boots, GRUB can make wrong assumptions about the state of the file system journal or where the first superblock isFeb 09 13:41
DaemonFCand totally ruin your XFS partitionFeb 09 13:41
sebsebsebwell I don't use XFSFeb 09 13:41
sebsebsebI nearly did once, but  needed a seperate /bootFeb 09 13:41
DaemonFCits been known to corrupt ext3Feb 09 13:41
sebsebsebso I was like nahFeb 09 13:41
DaemonFCthe ext4 support is the same hacks that let it boot up XFSFeb 09 13:42
DaemonFCyou should be scared to use Ext4 and GRUB LegacyFeb 09 13:42
sebsebsebworked fine for me with 9.04Feb 09 13:42
DaemonFCthat's why Fedora 11 still made you have /boot on Ext3 even if / was on Ext4Feb 09 13:42
sebsebseb9.04 is the one where Ext4 is a bit hrmFeb 09 13:43
sebsebsebsince the kernel and such or whateverFeb 09 13:43
DaemonFCEric Sandeen doesn't trust grub legacy and that's good enough for meFeb 09 13:43
sebsebsebanyway I didn't get any problems :)Feb 09 13:43
sebsebsebdid it on this one for quite a while,  but also the other computer for  quite a whileFeb 09 13:43
sebsebsebin fact that one would still be 9.04 with  Ext4, if the whole hard disk didn't get completly re doneFeb 09 13:44
DaemonFCWell, Ubuntu backported some of the data loss patches back into their kernel 2.6.28Feb 09 13:44
sebsebseb,because of how  XP on there messed up big timeFeb 09 13:44
sebsebseba virus or somethingFeb 09 13:44
DaemonFCI don't trust Ext4 because there's still data loss issuesFeb 09 13:44
sebsebsebwell Google have gone  from or are about to go from Ext2 to Ext4Feb 09 13:44
sebsebsebhowever they have also hired the lead Ext4 developerFeb 09 13:44
DaemonFCyeah, and Google has uninterruptible power suppliesFeb 09 13:45
sebsebsebwhat do you mean uninterupitble power supplies?Feb 09 13:46
DaemonFCkeeps the systems up long enough to cleanly shut down if the power goes outFeb 09 13:46
sebsebsebohFeb 09 13:46
DaemonFCif you have an unclean shutdown, not all of your computer shuts off at once :)Feb 09 13:46
sebsebsebohFeb 09 13:47
sebsebseb?Feb 09 13:47
oiaohm_Little different to that.Feb 09 13:47
DaemonFCthe voltage decreases on the 5 and 12 V rails in the power supplyFeb 09 13:47
oiaohm_Google has a back up battery directly connect to motherboard.Feb 09 13:47
DaemonFCyour hard drive is writing the garbage to the file system that the malfunctioning RAM is sending to itFeb 09 13:48
oiaohm_When you are a big as google you can order custom boards with that feature.Feb 09 13:48
DaemonFCfor a couple hundred msFeb 09 13:48
sebsebsebms?Feb 09 13:48
DaemonFCit's enough to fuck over some of your data up to and including the entire file systemFeb 09 13:48
DaemonFCmillisecondsFeb 09 13:48
oiaohm_Ext4 has a few different operation modes.Feb 09 13:48
sebsebsebok, but turning the computer off using the power button is ok?Feb 09 13:49
oiaohm_The default is slightly risky.Feb 09 13:49
DaemonFCext3 doesn't have delayed allocation or extents, so it's saferFeb 09 13:49
sebsebsebI mean don't shut down the computer using the OS, but turn it off using the power buttonFeb 09 13:49
sebsebsebthat's ok?Feb 09 13:49
oiaohm_delayed allocation can be disabled.  DaemonFCFeb 09 13:49
DaemonFCext4 trades a lot of reliability for some performanceFeb 09 13:49
DaemonFCreal fast but it might lose your dataFeb 09 13:49
oiaohm_Only if you leave it on default settings DaemonFCFeb 09 13:49
oiaohm_Ext4 does not have to be any more risky than ext3Feb 09 13:50
DaemonFCif you want to just push your hard drive performance, you can build ReiserFS v4Feb 09 13:53
DaemonFCI think I'd still like to see Reiser 4 more than BtrFSFeb 09 13:53
DaemonFCbut they only merge big corporate stuffFeb 09 13:53
DaemonFCIf some random guy walked up and asked Linus to merge JFS or XFS, he wouldn't do itFeb 09 13:54
DaemonFChe only did ReiserFS cause Suse was pushing it per default and ext3 didn't exist for another yearFeb 09 13:54
oiaohm_Linux kernel has merged a lot of non corporate stuff.Feb 09 13:55
DaemonFCthe only things that end up merged are things from billion dollar companies or stuff originated within the high level Linux developersFeb 09 13:55
oiaohm_Reiserfs 4 is having to have many alterations .Feb 09 13:55
oiaohm_It presumed functions under it would lock for it.Feb 09 13:56
DaemonFCif Reiser 4 ever gets merged, I'll eat my hat. There's every kind of conspiracy as to why it's not, but I still think it's better than any fs they have merged so farFeb 09 13:56
oiaohm_So as BKL has been removed from a lot of areas.  Lot of bugs have been turning up.Feb 09 13:56
oiaohm_Even the old Reiser has the same coding design error DaemonFCFeb 09 13:56
DaemonFCyeah, they've fixed it kind of :)Feb 09 13:57
-BNi/#boycottnovell-[satipera/@satipera] Microsoft sucker British Library into more cooperation. 09 13:57
phIRCe-BNcTitle: Microsoft And British Library Develop Open Source Research Tool - News - .::. Size~: 24.47 KBFeb 09 13:57
oiaohm_It still jack knifing as more BLK are being removed.  DaemonFCFeb 09 13:57
DaemonFCthe most painful part of using ReiserFS v3 is the fsck every bootFeb 09 13:57
oiaohm_Old Raiserfs playing up is being enough to keep ReiserFS 4 off the table until the BKL and other locking fixes are complete.Feb 09 13:58
DaemonFCXFS is really the best file system in Linux right now and the biggest problem with it is that it was designed for better hardware than a PC, and that it has special reliability features that depend on IRIX and SGI servers and workstationsFeb 09 13:59
oiaohm_Yep some arm and ppc chips running Linux suit it better.Feb 09 13:59
DaemonFCit's not even thatFeb 09 14:01
-BNtwitter/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] #SteveBallmer Visits #Obama Once Again as Fight Against #Google Continues 09 14:01
phIRCe-BNcTitle: Steve Ballmer Visits Obama Once Again as His Fight Against Google Continues | Boycott Novell .::. Size~: 104.16 KBFeb 09 14:01
DaemonFCSGI boxes had hardened PSUs that detected power outages and told IRIX and kept the system going long enough for IRIX to go "OH SHIT!! KILL THE pending I/O NOW!!!!"Feb 09 14:02
DaemonFCand Linux on a PC can't do thatFeb 09 14:02
-BNi/#boycottnovell-[sagarun/@sagarun] My frnd who works for #infosys has just sent me a well designed html email that reads "job openings at #hcl" from his infy mailid #irony :PFeb 09 14:02
oiaohm_On PPC and ARM Yes some board can do that.Feb 09 14:02
DaemonFCand that's why XFS had so many data loss issues when it was first ported to Linux PCsFeb 09 14:02
MinceRUPSes can do thatFeb 09 14:03
oiaohm_Ie the low power eat of PPC and ARM allows them to even be better.Feb 09 14:03
MinceRand there's no excuse for trashing data the way XFS doesFeb 09 14:03
DaemonFCMinceR, XFS was developed for better systems than it runs on in LinuxFeb 09 14:04
oiaohm_Supper caps on motherboard can hold them up and operational even if power supply has left the building. Feb 09 14:04
DaemonFCand it doesn't have unreasonable probability of data loss now relative to Ext4 ;)Feb 09 14:04
oiaohm_Linux is designed for everything from supper good hardware to crap.  DaemonFCFeb 09 14:04
MinceRDaemonFC: doesn't matter how good the systems it was developed for, it's crapFeb 09 14:04
MinceRDaemonFC: any system can break down without being able to write to the hard drive.Feb 09 14:04
MinceRDaemonFC: like i said, there's no excuse for trashing data the way XFS doesFeb 09 14:05
DaemonFCthat must be why Ext4 is slower, makes 10% of my disk off limits to me, and loses data more oftenFeb 09 14:05
-BNtwitter/#boycottnovell-[zoobab] European Parliament not transparent "This verbatim report is not an official record, only the video is the authentic" 09 14:05
DaemonFCExt4 is crapFeb 09 14:05
MinceRext4 was developed along stupid notionsFeb 09 14:05
MinceRit's crapFeb 09 14:05
DaemonFCXFS is more or less parFeb 09 14:05
oiaohm_Ext4 defaults are crap.Feb 09 14:05
oiaohm_Core filesystem is not too bad.Feb 09 14:06
DaemonFCXFS gave Ext4 some guidelines for just how much it should fuck-up to outdo XFSFeb 09 14:06
DaemonFCthat's my opinion anywayFeb 09 14:06
MinceRwell, now it can be kind of hacked into being a little less crapFeb 09 14:06
DaemonFCand Ext4 manages to do thatFeb 09 14:06
MinceRi don't see any point to it, since there's ext3Feb 09 14:06
oiaohm_Ext4 supports larger drives than ext3Feb 09 14:06
MinceRand iirc ext3 outperforms ext4 when the latter uses supposedly safe settingsFeb 09 14:06
DaemonFCif you want to use the kinds of features in Ext4, you should go with XFSFeb 09 14:06
oiaohm_Not really DaemonFCFeb 09 14:07
DaemonFCget something that's faster, and hammered down for years before Ext4 even existedFeb 09 14:07
oiaohm_XFS is fast but it does have it bugs.Feb 09 14:07
oiaohm_Like zeroing out files.Feb 09 14:07
MinceRso does ext4Feb 09 14:07
oiaohm_Guess where ext4 got the idea that zeroing out files was fine Feb 09 14:07
DaemonFCoiaohm_, XFS in Linux in 2001 is very different from XFS in Linux in 2010Feb 09 14:08
DaemonFCthere's still a lot of work being done on itFeb 09 14:08
oiaohm_XFS defaults have lot of the same issues as Ext4 defaults.Feb 09 14:08
oiaohm_Most people deploying either don't use there defaults.Feb 09 14:08
DaemonFCthe XFS driver is actually shrinking, it lost a few thousand lines of code last year aloneFeb 09 14:08
DaemonFC:)Feb 09 14:08
oiaohm_Most Linux filesystem drivers are shrinking.Feb 09 14:09
oiaohm_Any ideas why DaemonFCFeb 09 14:09
DaemonFCmerging XFS specific stuff like ACL with standard Linux stuff there for all filesystems to useFeb 09 14:09
oiaohm_All the old file systems had independant ACL crud and other crud DaemonFCFeb 09 14:09
oiaohm_Framework clean ups.Feb 09 14:10
DaemonFCin many cases a lot of XFS specific stuff is being weeded out and it's now depending on the standard Linux facilities Feb 09 14:10
oiaohm_Those standard Linux facilities are newish.Feb 09 14:10
oiaohm_So basically if XFS filesystem did not reduce in size you could say it was bit rotting.Feb 09 14:11
DaemonFCbetter that it gets made generic where possible than maintaining a version for ever file system there isFeb 09 14:11
DaemonFCXFS isn't going to bit-rot any time soonFeb 09 14:12
oiaohm_Last 12 months the internal layout of Linux got a lot cleaner.Feb 09 14:12
DaemonFCI'd say it could have as much as another 10 years left in itFeb 09 14:12
DaemonFCSGI's biggest fuck-ups were Windows, x86 Xeons, and of course, the ItanicFeb 09 14:13
DaemonFCB-)Feb 09 14:13
DaemonFClet Microsoft and Intel sing them a psiren songFeb 09 14:14
oiaohm_Big difference between XFS and Btrfs is lack of implemenation of snapshotting in XFSFeb 09 14:14
-BNtwitter/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] Norwegian Agency for Public Management and eGovernment Slams #Microsoft #OOXML #odfFeb 09 14:15
phIRCe-BNcTitle: Norwegian Agency for Public Management and eGovernment Slams Microsoft OOXML | Boycott Novell .::. Size~: 87.36 KBFeb 09 14:15
MinceRwhat did SGI do about those?Feb 09 14:15
oiaohm_So snapshoting a XFS you have to pause the filesystem.   Btrfs can do it on fly.  DaemonFCFeb 09 14:15
DaemonFCMinceR, They axed them after a few years of taking a bath as I recallFeb 09 14:16
DaemonFCIRIX never got ported to x86Feb 09 14:16
MinceRwhat did SGI do about winblows?Feb 09 14:16
DaemonFCgot rid of themFeb 09 14:16
DaemonFCMinceR, The whole point of Microsoft and Intel doping SGI was to make MIPS + IRIX less credibleFeb 09 14:17
DaemonFCso they asked SGI to shoot themselves in the foot, and they did :)Feb 09 14:17
DaemonFCIRIX wasn't a bad systemFeb 09 14:18
DaemonFCit had Quake III Arena on itFeb 09 14:18
MinceRicFeb 09 14:18
DaemonFChow could it be bad?Feb 09 14:18
DaemonFCyou can find IRIX isos around, it's been abandoned and only runs on MIPS, but it's out thereFeb 09 14:19
*oiaohm_ has quit (Remote host closed the connection)Feb 09 14:19
DaemonFCget yourself an SGI workstation on ebay real cheap, when you get sick of playing around with IRIX, Linux runs on themFeb 09 14:19
MinceRold computers tend to be slow.Feb 09 14:20
DaemonFCMIPS processors are pretty damned fastFeb 09 14:20
DaemonFCeven at like 1 Ghz, you're still doing goodFeb 09 14:21
DaemonFCMinceR, The system on Jurassic Park was IRIXFeb 09 14:22
DaemonFCB-)Feb 09 14:22
DaemonFCSGI is now just another X86-64+RHEL vendorFeb 09 14:23
MinceRJurassic Park is also oldFeb 09 14:23
DaemonFCprofits on that is probably razor thinFeb 09 14:23
DaemonFCmost of the money going to Red Hat I'm sureFeb 09 14:23
*kecskebak has quit (Remote host closed the connection)Feb 09 14:27
DaemonFC 09 14:41
phIRCe-BNcTitle: OpenOffice Dropped From Ubuntu Netbook Edition | OMG! Ubuntu! .::. Size~: 102.98 KBFeb 09 14:41
sebsebsebDaemonFC  That's not officalFeb 09 14:43
sebsebsebit's a blue printFeb 09 14:43
DaemonFCahhhhFeb 09 14:43
sebsebsebalso the blueprint had some quite negative comments, and a link to an articleFeb 09 14:43
DaemonFCabiword and gnumeric just don't cut itFeb 09 14:44
DaemonFCa lot of complex documents will just crash themFeb 09 14:44
sebsebseboh you think Abiword and Gnumeric won't cut it hrmFeb 09 14:44
DaemonFCno PDF ExportFeb 09 14:44
sebsebsebwell I have used Abiword a bit here and there, and it seems alrightFeb 09 14:44
DaemonFCI could go on and onFeb 09 14:44
sebsebseb,but I never used it to open up complex documentsFeb 09 14:44
sebsebsebor did I, and then I went to Open Office hrmFeb 09 14:45
DaemonFCAs long as you never have any DOCX or any xls with embedded tables, you're OK I guessFeb 09 14:45
DaemonFCxls with tables will kill GnumericFeb 09 14:45
DaemonFCalso doc with tables will crash AbiwordFeb 09 14:45
DaemonFCerrr, I'm not thinking rightFeb 09 14:46
DaemonFCtables in doc kill AbiwordFeb 09 14:46
DaemonFCwhat did I mean to say kill Gnumeric?Feb 09 14:47
DaemonFCI don't use either one of them ever since the first document someone sent me crashed abiwordFeb 09 14:47
MinceRi haven't seen any documents crash eitherFeb 09 14:49
MinceRnot display correctly, yes. crash, no.Feb 09 14:49
MinceRmaybe you saw an early version?Feb 09 14:49
DaemonFCit was in Xubuntu around late 2008 I thinkFeb 09 14:50
sebsebsebThis will link to the blueprint, plus now their are comments on Linux Today,  and unless it's been changed their's a link to an article that mentions Open Office being dropped, or well how it might be dropped I should sayFeb 09 14:52
phIRCe-BNcTitle: Linux Today - Discuss application use-cases in Lucid UNE (Drop OpenOffice) .::. Size~: 80.51 KBFeb 09 14:52
sebsebsebgreat message except I didn't get your name in it since...  DeamonFCFeb 09 14:52
-BNtwitter/#boycottnovell-[thistleweb] BBC - dot.Rory: Government advice: Browse safely with Microsoft - More MSBBC PR 09 14:53
phIRCe-BNcTitle: BBC - dot.Rory: Government advice: Browse safely with Microsoft .::. Size~: 103.31 KBFeb 09 14:53
sebsebsebDaemonFC they should leave Open Office in really, and remove stuff like F-Spot and Tomboy if they are going to remote stuff I guessFeb 09 14:56
sebsebseband no not, because they are Mono appsFeb 09 14:56
sebsebsebanyway how many people do photo editing on a net book?Feb 09 14:56
sebsebsebprobably less than those who make documents on it?Feb 09 14:57
DaemonFCI wouldn't run the Netbook Remix :PFeb 09 14:57
sebsebsebI don't have a netbookFeb 09 14:57
sebsebseb,butFeb 09 14:57
sebsebsebI have been thinking about virtual machine trying itFeb 09 14:57
sebsebsebUNR is also having Chromeium instead of FIrefoxFeb 09 14:58
MinceRi wouldn't run the netbook remix eitherFeb 09 14:58
MinceRi prefer the desktop setup of Plasma DesktopFeb 09 14:59
MinceR:>Feb 09 14:59
sebsebsebMincerR starting with 9.10 they also have a Kubuntu oneFeb 09 14:59
MinceRi know, that's the one i triedFeb 09 14:59
MinceRsomehow they managed to hide the cashews so i couldn't even reconfigure itFeb 09 14:59
sebsebsebthe what?Feb 09 14:59
sebsebsebanyway there are more interseting/better   distros for net books, than what Ubuntu/Canonical provideFeb 09 15:00
MinceRthe plasma iconFeb 09 15:00
MinceRwith which one can change desktop activities, panels and appletsFeb 09 15:00
sebsebsebDeamonFC  Google Docs is propritaryFeb 09 15:01
sebsebsebsomething about how the core apps are meant to all be open source with UbuntuFeb 09 15:01
sebsebsebthere was a comment I read some where it basically said, that's a bit odd  they are doing Yahoo as the default search in  Lucid and then Google Docs instead of Open Office as well, all in the same releaseFeb 09 15:02
sebsebsebthen I think I read something else about how they want to make Google happy as wellFeb 09 15:02
sebsebsebanyway hrm don't think I got round  to reading it properly or I did, but there was an article/blog entry by that Steven J. Vaghen Nicholas if I remember correctly,  that basically says that  Canonical helped Google to make Chrome OSFeb 09 15:03
sebsebsebanyway quite a few  interesting Linux distros out there for net books these days,  and  the Ubuntu one isn't exactly interestingFeb 09 15:04
sebsebsebah the beautey of all these things in a way,  they give us something to  chat about on IRC and such :DFeb 09 15:06
sebsebseband they give us articles and peoples comments and so on, to read on the web :DFeb 09 15:06
-BNi/#boycottnovell-[sagarun/@sagarun] #CLT "I am takin back my love, I've given you too much" -Enrique IglesiasFeb 09 15:07
sebsebseband a lot of it gives schestowitz something to type his blog enteries aboutFeb 09 15:08
sebsebseband so onFeb 09 15:08
sebsebsebnice to have some sort of idea what's going on  when it comes to the computer world,  sadly can't find out much when it comes  to this subjectFeb 09 15:08
sebsebsebfrom the main streame newsFeb 09 15:09
sebsebseb  This comment indeed at itFeb 09 15:12
phIRCe-BNcTitle: Linux Today - Discuss application use-cases in Lucid UNE (Drop OpenOffice) .::. Size~: 74.77 KBFeb 09 15:12
sebsebsebIt's like these developers are forgetting in a way, how important The Gimp and Open Office really areFeb 09 15:12
sebsebsebboth projects go back quite a whileFeb 09 15:12
sebsebsebboth projects run on Windows and have quite a lot of users there, more so for Open Office than The GIMPFeb 09 15:13
sebsebsebboth projects have been in the default installs for most Desktop Linux distros, since I don't know whenFeb 09 15:13
sebsebsebF-Spot is really just modern rubbishFeb 09 15:14
sebsebsebthe app is ok, but there have been other programs that can do what F-Spot does for yearsFeb 09 15:14
sebsebsebwhat's there instead of Open Office  well yeah KOffice  which won't go in  the  Gnome  UNR for obvious reasonsFeb 09 15:15
MinceRthere's also Gnome OfficeFeb 09 15:15
sebsebseband if  Abiword and Gnumeric aren't good enough,   leave Open Office in, better than  using some propritary Google Docs thing really.Feb 09 15:15
sebsebsebaltough doesn't really effect me since I don't have a net bookFeb 09 15:16
sebsebsebas for The GIMP  I don't  do graphics design, so again that woudn't effect me plus I know I can just install itFeb 09 15:16
sebsebsebI thought Abiword and Gnumeric are part of Gnome Office ?  or well are Gnome OfficeFeb 09 15:16
MinceRthey areFeb 09 15:16
MinceRpart of it, that isFeb 09 15:16
sebsebsebwhat's the rest of Gnome Office then?Feb 09 15:16
MinceRiirc there's also DiaFeb 09 15:19
MinceRapparently notFeb 09 15:19
MinceR 09 15:19
phIRCe-BNcTitle: GnomeOffice - GNOME Live! .::. Size~: 9.74 KBFeb 09 15:19
MinceRAbiWord, Evince, Evolution, GnumericFeb 09 15:19
MinceRor maybe this isn't really Gnome Office?Feb 09 15:20
MinceRaccording to WP, this is the Gnome Office page...Feb 09 15:20
sebsebseboh yeah that Michael De Icza started Gnumeric apparnatlyFeb 09 15:20
sebsebsebor something like thatFeb 09 15:20
sebsebsebheh heh maybe Ubuntu should just get rid of  Netbook Edition, which I think UNR is now called, and just support Chrome OS instead :DFeb 09 15:21
sebsebsebmight as well, otherwise the CD will run out of space ha haFeb 09 15:22
sebsebsebthat seems to be the excuse for a lot of this kind of stuffFeb 09 15:22
sebsebsebthe CD is going to run out of space if we don't remove...Feb 09 15:22
MinceRthey could remove the mono runtime to save spaceFeb 09 15:23
sebsebsebwell that's a bit hrm, since I burnt  Mandriva 2010 Gnome to a standard sized  CD, and well  it also came with quite a few more apps than UbuntuFeb 09 15:23
sebsebsebor so it seemsFeb 09 15:23
sebsebsebmaybe Ubuntu has under the hood stuf that is taking up space,  that I don't really know aboutFeb 09 15:23
sebsebseb,but in the Gnome menus, yep Mandriva had moreFeb 09 15:24
sebsebsebMincerR there was a comment I read about how Mono apps don't take up that much space, but people forget something, or whatever it wasFeb 09 15:25
MinceRyeah, people forget the size of the mono runtimeFeb 09 15:25
sebsebsebit might have been thatFeb 09 15:26
sebsebsebanywah the Google Docs thing in the net book version wellFeb 09 15:28
sebsebsebok us experienced Linux users quite  a few us won't be so keen on itFeb 09 15:29
sebsebseb,but their target audiance those who don't really know that much about computers,  will be fine with itFeb 09 15:29
sebsebsebplus those same people really like GoogleFeb 09 15:29
MinceRthen they're stupidFeb 09 15:29
sebsebsebyou know all that Google hype etcFeb 09 15:29
sebsebsebwell yes I am talking about the average computer user hereFeb 09 15:29
sebsebsebthe ones who have come from Windows looking for an alternative to get away from viruses and suchFeb 09 15:30
MinceRand they shouldn't be affirmed in their ignoranceFeb 09 15:30
sebsebsebwhat do you mean affirmed?Feb 09 15:30
MinceRimo OOo is better even as such an alternativeFeb 09 15:30
sebsebsebwell  their target audiance won't just know about Open Office quite a few of them I guess or they will, butFeb 09 15:30
sebsebseboh Google DocsFeb 09 15:30
sebsebseboh it's "Google" ah yesFeb 09 15:30
sebsebsebGoogleFeb 09 15:30
MinceRsebsebseb: basically telling them "hey, trusting google with all your private is really great, we're endorsing it!"Feb 09 15:30
sebsebsebI love GoogleFeb 09 15:30
MinceRs/private/& data/Feb 09 15:31
sebsebsebthey wil use GoogleFeb 09 15:31
sebsebsebjust like a lot of them will use their Iphones and Ipods and wonder why Ubuntu doesn't just support htemFeb 09 15:31
sebsebsebthere was some guy earlier,  he didn't seem to get itFeb 09 15:31
sebsebsebstupid ignorant, well  that's what  the average computer user is really, when it comes to computingFeb 09 15:32
sebsebsebheh I love this channel at times,  I can say stuff like what I just did, without people like aruging against it :DFeb 09 15:32
sebsebseboh I love helping people that don't know computers that well, become happy with UbuntuFeb 09 15:33
MinceR...only to be screwed on the long run? :>Feb 09 15:33
sebsebsebI have helped quite a lot of people onlineFeb 09 15:33
sebsebsebwell yeah  that's the thingFeb 09 15:33
sebsebsebUbuntu is starting to become a bit hrm for meFeb 09 15:34
sebsebsebI am not that keen on how it is at the moment with 9.10Feb 09 15:34
sebsebsebUbuntu One in the default installFeb 09 15:34
MinceRi like 9.10, but the rumors are very disturbingFeb 09 15:34
sebsebsebhorrible  GDM  theme that can't just be changed etcFeb 09 15:34
MinceRit seems it's all going to crap soonFeb 09 15:34
MinceRthen again, i'm using Kubuntu, not UbuntuFeb 09 15:34
sebsebsebI still think Ubuntu is a good one for new users,  it's not perfect thoughFeb 09 15:34
MinceRso i have KDM... but i rarely see it since i usually just suspend my machinesFeb 09 15:35
sebsebsebwell no distros  are, they are made by people, but Ubuntu is no where near perfectFeb 09 15:35
sebsebsebyeah  I replaced GDM in Karmic with KDMFeb 09 15:35
sebsebsebyeah since like Ubuntu 8.04Feb 09 15:35
sebsebsebUbuntu has been getting better in certain ways and worse in othersFeb 09 15:35
sebsebsebGnome 3 might mess up Ubuntu as wellFeb 09 15:36
sebsebsebI really do think a lot of users will get it, and then not be that keen on it etcFeb 09 15:36
sebsebseb,but then again,  most Ubuntu users seem to just take, what  Ubuntu/Canoncial give  them, and that's thatFeb 09 15:37
sebsebseboh and loads think Ubuntu is so amazing and great and aweseome since all the hype and how it's got such a big community,   but  Mandriva and so on are also pretty good :)Feb 09 15:37
sebsebsebUbuntu is the major noobs  distro and has been since well  2004?Feb 09 15:39
sebsebsebI used to think 8.10  with some proper marketting  was ready for a lot of the mass's untill I found out that the ethernet woudn't just work on the other computerFeb 09 15:40
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sebsebsebgargoyle-grin  Gentoo contributor aye?  So what do you do?Feb 09 15:52
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DaemonFC 09 16:30
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DaemonFChehFeb 09 16:30
-BNtwitter/#boycottnovell-[qu1j0t3] Dear Carlos Slim: in a city of 6 million poor, a country of 90 million poor, who gives a fuck about ur vanity & ur Picassos? #mexico #greedFeb 09 16:35
Ender2070now that kde 4.4 hit the shelfs they let me publishFeb 09 16:40
Ender2070 09 16:40
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trmanco:)Feb 09 16:48
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-BNtwitter/#boycottnovell-[qu1j0t3] >@rww #Google Exiting #China? Not Just Yet // did anyone really expect them to? #stunt #moneytalksFeb 09 16:54
Ender2070:DFeb 09 16:56
trmancoHappy birthday to me :)Feb 09 16:57
Ender2070happy birthdayFeb 09 16:58
Ender2070lol for my birthday they released fedora 12Feb 09 16:58
trmancothanksFeb 09 17:03
-BNtwitter/#boycottnovell-[qu1j0t3] >@HappyFeminist recently heard Brazilian friend of friend in hopeless, dangerous situation due to unavailability of safe,legal abortionFeb 09 17:12
sebsebsebtrmanco  Happy Birthday!  How old? :DFeb 09 17:13
trmancothanksFeb 09 17:13
trmanco20Feb 09 17:13
sebsebseboh thought you would be older then thatFeb 09 17:14
DaemonFCyeah, anytime you're not a complete retard, people expect you to be olderFeb 09 17:16
DaemonFCfunny how that worksFeb 09 17:16
-BNi/#boycottnovell-[sagarun/@sagarun] watching FOSSEE python workshop videos, An excellent work by FOSSEE team 09 17:17
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trmancono, I'm youngFeb 09 17:17
FurnaceBoytrmanco: feliz aniversarioFeb 09 17:19
trmancoobrigadoFeb 09 17:20
DaemonFCold people act like the ark of the covenant was opened so god could strike them with divine revelationFeb 09 17:20
trmanco 09 17:21
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DaemonFCeven the ones that spent their whole lives doing menial labor and paying the same bills every month seem to think that 40 more years of that under the belt makes them wiseFeb 09 17:21
DaemonFCthe words "bitter" and "dejected" come to mindFeb 09 17:22
FurnaceBoyDaemonFC: some of us make an effort to learn during our four decades. "reading" comes to mind.Feb 09 17:23
DaemonFCthe ability to read doesn't make someone intelligentFeb 09 17:24
FurnaceBoyDaemonFC: "travelling" is also helpful in broadening the mind.Feb 09 17:24
DaemonFCnor does the fact that you did read for 40 yearsFeb 09 17:24
FurnaceBoyno, but you might learn something. :)Feb 09 17:24
FurnaceBoyit's kinda traditional.Feb 09 17:24
FurnaceBoywe have these things, "schools" and "universities"Feb 09 17:25
FurnaceBoynon-geniuses are also welcome to attendFeb 09 17:25
DaemonFCyeah, big corporations that your generation put into power are trying to brainwash my generationFeb 09 17:25
FurnaceBoymy generation?Feb 09 17:25
FurnaceBoyyou misestimate my age.Feb 09 17:25
FurnaceBoyi'm the generation trying to reverse thatFeb 09 17:25
DaemonFCby closing down all the bookstores and having Walmart sell no reading material not written by Limbaugh, Beck, or PalinFeb 09 17:25
FurnaceBoyyes, i know all about it. so stop encouraging them.Feb 09 17:25
*FurnaceBoy shuns franchises, you should tooFeb 09 17:26
FurnaceBoybut you are a contented Wal-Mart shopper, afaikFeb 09 17:26
DaemonFCWalmart likes to shove small, locally owned stores out so they can sell their own narrow assortment of censored books, music, and moviesFeb 09 17:26
FurnaceBoyyes, we know.Feb 09 17:27
FurnaceBoyall franchises do it.Feb 09 17:27
DaemonFCit's quite interesting how they accomplish that tooFeb 09 17:27
FurnaceBoybut you still shop there, don't you? How about Starbucks? IKEA?Feb 09 17:27
DaemonFCthey only have to take away enough business from other stores to make it fiscally impossible to remain openFeb 09 17:27
Ender2070FurnaceBoy - Daemon has no books, he burned them all while watching RushFeb 09 17:28
DaemonFCso what if they only serve 60% of that stores customers?Feb 09 17:28
DaemonFCthe other store still folds up and diesFeb 09 17:28
DaemonFCEnder2070, Just because I don't like the locust swarm, I suddenly can't read?Feb 09 17:29
DaemonFChow narrow minded of you :)Feb 09 17:29
Ender2070can't and won't are two different thingsFeb 09 17:29
schestowitztrmanco: happy birthdayFeb 09 17:29
Ender2070obviously you can read if you're having a conversation with meFeb 09 17:29
trmancothansk schestowitz Feb 09 17:29
DaemonFCmaybe something must first interest me, and also shouldn't be outright propagandaFeb 09 17:30
DaemonFCthen they have the nerve to put that shit in non-fictionFeb 09 17:30
Ender2070stay away from the best sellers list thenFeb 09 17:30
DaemonFCthe best sellers list is always the far left and the far right ideologues Feb 09 17:31
Ender2070if the author was funded by grants, their material is propagandaFeb 09 17:31
DaemonFCI think they buy a million copies of their own book just so it rapes you upon entering the storeFeb 09 17:31
Ender2070they can buy their way into the best sellers listFeb 09 17:31
Ender2070without purchasing their own book a million timesFeb 09 17:32
Ender2070they can even get an operah sticker by payingFeb 09 17:32
DaemonFCyeah, pay off the people doing the trackingFeb 09 17:32
Ender2070no its not even a backroom dealFeb 09 17:32
Ender2070the publisher asks if you want to be on the best sellers listFeb 09 17:32
DaemonFCOprah has endorsed some really mind-numbing bullshitFeb 09 17:33
Ender2070it only costs a few thousand bucksFeb 09 17:33
DaemonFCthere has to be some kickbacks in it for herFeb 09 17:33
Ender2070oprah doesnt read half the shit that has her sticker on itFeb 09 17:33
Ender2070you can buy her promotionFeb 09 17:33
Ender2070they made fun of that fact on family guyFeb 09 17:33
FurnaceBoyif ppl turned the tv off, the problem would go awayFeb 09 17:35
FurnaceBoyit's programmed buyingFeb 09 17:35
Ender2070also the government doesnt give grants to people who write stuff they dont want out thereFeb 09 17:35
FurnaceBoyprofitable and infinitely destructiveFeb 09 17:35
Ender2070FurnaceBoy - a simple highschool level education on subliminals is all you need to figure that one outFeb 09 17:36
DaemonFCEnder2070, National Endowment for the ArtsFeb 09 17:36
DaemonFC:)Feb 09 17:36
FurnaceBoyEnder2070: i'm not even talking subliminal.Feb 09 17:37
Ender2070the laws that go into regulating commercials for subliminals don't look into how often the commercial is played, it looks at the single commercial individuallyFeb 09 17:37
Ender2070well you mentioned programmingFeb 09 17:37
FurnaceBoyEnder2070: it doesn't have to be subliminal.Feb 09 17:37
FurnaceBoyyes in a general sense.Feb 09 17:37
Ender2070tv is a lot of brainwashingFeb 09 17:38
FurnaceBoymost ppl live according to the program. turning the tv off, not owning a tv, is now radicalFeb 09 17:38
FurnaceBoyof course it is, it's what it is for.Feb 09 17:38
DaemonFCsubliminal ads are not effectiveFeb 09 17:38
Ender2070i agreeFeb 09 17:38
FurnaceBoyDaemonFC: they're not the topic hereFeb 09 17:38
DaemonFCand it's illegal anywayFeb 09 17:38
Ender2070subliminal ads are VERY effective tooFeb 09 17:38
FurnaceBoybut they are not neededFeb 09 17:38
Ender2070if you see a single commercial more than once during a program, thats subliminalFeb 09 17:39
Ender2070its not always about secret messagesFeb 09 17:39
FurnaceBoythe actual techniques don't concern me as much as the effectFeb 09 17:39
Ender2070playing the same thing over and over does it tooFeb 09 17:39
FurnaceBoyas of now, tv is in controlFeb 09 17:39
FurnaceBoytv and filmFeb 09 17:39
DaemonFC 09 17:39
phIRCe-BNcTitle: Subliminal stimuli - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia .::. Size~: 114.57 KBFeb 09 17:39
FurnaceBoyDaemonFC: this isn't the topicFeb 09 17:39
DaemonFCI'm still waiting for blipvertsFeb 09 17:39
FurnaceBoyDaemonFC: so, you didn't answer: do you shop at Wal-Mart, IKEA or Starbucks?Feb 09 17:40
Ender2070people won't believe anything unless its on tv tooFeb 09 17:40
FurnaceBoyEnder2070: correctFeb 09 17:40
FurnaceBoyEnder2070: 1) if it's not on tv, it's false 2) if it's on tv, it's trueFeb 09 17:40
DaemonFCthere is no Starbucks here, there is no IKEAFeb 09 17:40
FurnaceBoyEnder2070: perfectly hermetic systemFeb 09 17:40
DaemonFCI try not to shop at WalmartFeb 09 17:40
FurnaceBoyDaemonFC: but if there were, would you shop there? or boycott? and do you shop at Walmart?Feb 09 17:40
Ender2070im even reading a book on brainwashingFeb 09 17:40
Ender2070it gets scaryFeb 09 17:41
DaemonFCit's harder to avoid Walmart every yearFeb 09 17:41
FurnaceBoyDaemonFC: "try not" ?Feb 09 17:41
DaemonFCmore and more of their competitors are just goneFeb 09 17:41
FurnaceBoyDaemonFC: right, and that is a problemFeb 09 17:41
Ender2070why do news reporters always sit in front of a wall of monitors sometimes?Feb 09 17:41
FurnaceBoyDaemonFC: i don't think anyone should accept thisFeb 09 17:41
FurnaceBoyDaemonFC: UK has this problem with TescoFeb 09 17:41
DaemonFCFurnaceBoy, It's not going to be easy when they're the only store leftFeb 09 17:41
FurnaceBoyDaemonFC: why do we let it get that far?Feb 09 17:41
DaemonFCFurnaceBoy, Because people assume that low prices are always going to be thereFeb 09 17:42
FurnaceBoyeuh?Feb 09 17:42
FurnaceBoybut why did anyone conclude that cheap is good for anyone?Feb 09 17:42
Ender2070the human brain can only handle a few crisis at a timeFeb 09 17:42
FurnaceBoythat's a really american conceptFeb 09 17:42
DaemonFCwhen they're really a weapon to get rid of competitors so they can raise prices to higher than the competitors wereFeb 09 17:42
FurnaceBoy"buy the cheapest" <-- american ideaFeb 09 17:42
FurnaceBoyand who on earth thought it was a good idea..Feb 09 17:42
DaemonFCwell, when someone lives on minimum wage I could see howFeb 09 17:43
DaemonFCcash and carry worldFeb 09 17:43
Ender2070i buy the cheapest, high quality itemsFeb 09 17:43
FurnaceBoyi can too. but that's just another problematic aspect of the same system.Feb 09 17:43
FurnaceBoybuying Walmart perpetuates povertyFeb 09 17:43
Ender2070not the cheapest of the cheapFeb 09 17:43
Ender2070i get the cheapest thing i think is decentFeb 09 17:43
DaemonFCof course it doesFeb 09 17:43
DaemonFCthey pay their employees so little, it should be illegalFeb 09 17:44
FurnaceBoyDaemonFC: that's a tricky concept to get acrossFeb 09 17:44
FurnaceBoyDaemonFC: it's worse than just the pay rateFeb 09 17:44
DaemonFCthey pass out brochures on how to get on food stamps and medicaidFeb 09 17:44
FurnaceBoyDaemonFC: the *existence* of Walmart impoverishes communities.Feb 09 17:44
FurnaceBoynot just their low payFeb 09 17:44
DaemonFCpeople who pay taxes should be livid about thatFeb 09 17:44
DaemonFCyou're not saving money, you're paying taxes to subsidize the rest of that person's existence Feb 09 17:45
DaemonFCpeople don't understand thisFeb 09 17:45
DaemonFCWalmart also depresses wages and benefits at the competitorsFeb 09 17:45
DaemonFCThe Owens grocery stores here were starting at $8.75 an hour before Walmart came inFeb 09 17:46
DaemonFCnow they start at $7.50Feb 09 17:46
jweyrichsomeone has to study a bit more.Feb 09 17:46
DaemonFCso Walmart causes poverty everywhere they go and far beyond their own abused employeesFeb 09 17:47
-BNtwitter/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] The press seems pessimistic about #Microsoft , which is increasingly seen as unable to evolve and innovate 09 17:47
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DaemonFCgranted $8.75 an hour is tough to live on, but $7.50 is damned near impossibleFeb 09 17:47
DaemonFCand that's just for one person you know, those people might have kidsFeb 09 17:48
DaemonFCand so the kids are a burden of taxpayer-funded programs tooFeb 09 17:48
DaemonFCwages go down > safety net programs become part of day to day life > taxes go upFeb 09 17:49
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DaemonFCit just can't be avoidedFeb 09 17:49
FurnaceBoyDaemonFC: yes. Walmart is part of the problem. shame people don't get that.Feb 09 17:50
-BNtwitter/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] #Windows ‘Battery Killer’ ( #Vista7 ) Also Has #USB Data Transfer Issues and Stability Problems 09 17:50
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FurnaceBoyDaemonFC: all franchises are.Feb 09 17:50
DaemonFCthe burden of taxation gets heavier and heavier until even the people that managed to keep their head above water go under Feb 09 17:50
FurnaceBoyhahaFeb 09 17:50
FurnaceBoyDaemonFC: the effective tax rate in Canada is about the same as the US.Feb 09 17:50
FurnaceBoyDaemonFC: this 'crippling tax' thing is another right wing invention.Feb 09 17:51
DaemonFCit's not just the fedsFeb 09 17:51
DaemonFCthe states crank it up the more they have to pay for medicaidFeb 09 17:51
FurnaceBoyDaemonFC: no, that includes provincial and federal sales tax. the effective rate is the same.Feb 09 17:51
DaemonFCand to hire people to process food stamp claimsFeb 09 17:51
FurnaceBoyDaemonFC: well, this works fine in canada. we don't pay more tax than you do.Feb 09 17:51
FurnaceBoyDaemonFC: it's only you guys who can't sort this outFeb 09 17:52
FurnaceBoymainly due to irrational FUD about government promulgated by the loony rightFeb 09 17:52
DaemonFCtaxation goes up to cover poverty "relief" programs for people who are getting their wages busted and hours cutFeb 09 17:53
DaemonFCit cannot come from anywhere elseFeb 09 17:53
FurnaceBoyunfortunately, our conservative govt has just driven the country from surplus into deficitFeb 09 17:53
FurnaceBoyconservatives are useless, should be ground up for food!Feb 09 17:53
DaemonFCFurnaceBoy, Soylent CheneyFeb 09 17:53
DaemonFC:DFeb 09 17:53
FurnaceBoyDaemonFC: ugh, contamination! :|Feb 09 17:54
DaemonFCwith a side of oil company lobbyist over condolezza riceFeb 09 17:55
DaemonFCmmmmmmFeb 09 17:55
FurnaceBoyhahaFeb 09 17:55
DaemonFCyou know how many lobbyists there are?Feb 09 17:57
-BNi/#boycottnovell-[serk01/@serk01] gnu/linux is evil! [funny pic] 09 17:57
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DaemonFCyou could probably lay them end to end and circle the moon and backFeb 09 17:57
DaemonFCit doesn't matter who is in office, the lobbyists and their money drown out the constituents :)Feb 09 17:58
DaemonFCall politicians are corruptFeb 09 17:58
DaemonFCCanada's government healthcare actually covers up health problems caused by the governmentFeb 09 17:59
DaemonFCthey won't testify over all those people developing all kinds of diseases because of the oil drilling in AlbertaFeb 09 18:00
DaemonFCthe government is covering its own assFeb 09 18:00
DaemonFCnow there's some corruption for youFeb 09 18:00
DaemonFCno testimony, no caseFeb 09 18:00
DaemonFC 09 18:02
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FurnaceBoyDaemonFC: yes the oil sands is a catastropheFeb 09 18:08
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-BNi/#boycottnovell-[sagarun/@sagarun] I want to try kde 4.4 ( ) ; Will try to install it in #24camp this SaturdayFeb 09 18:27
FurnaceBoyyeah but this technique is nothing new.Feb 09 18:33
FurnaceBoysee: 09 18:34
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DaemonFCFurnaceBoy, The only reason I'd like to see any government health insurance program is because the FBI is already using constitutionally illegal national security letters to wiretapFeb 09 18:34
FurnaceBoysee: 09 18:34
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DaemonFCwhat makes you think that they can't get your medical records the same way? :PFeb 09 18:34
FurnaceBoyDaemonFC: national security letters are not needed! those are generally thrown at libraries.Feb 09 18:35
FurnaceBoyDaemonFC: why aren't you talking about the NSA, purely warrantless tapping?Feb 09 18:35
DaemonFCin otherwords they're spying on us anyway, we might as well just have them be the insurance providerFeb 09 18:35
FurnaceBoyDaemonFC: the bigger question is why you tolerate the status quo at all. boiling frogs much?!Feb 09 18:35
DaemonFCwell, according to them, it was calls between an American and someone in another country, not that I believe it and not that that excuses what they didFeb 09 18:36
DaemonFCbut they'll find a way to make it legal after the factFeb 09 18:36
FurnaceBoyDaemonFC: no, that 's pure fabricationFeb 09 18:36
DaemonFCthey always doFeb 09 18:36
FurnaceBoyDaemonFC: you don't KNOW about the NSA taps?Feb 09 18:36
FurnaceBoyholy cerapFeb 09 18:36
FurnaceBoycrapFeb 09 18:36
FurnaceBoyyou guys live in a bigger bubble than i thoughtFeb 09 18:36
DaemonFCthe ones in 2005/2006?Feb 09 18:36
FurnaceBoyDaemonFC: the NSA has been doing all-band warrantless taps for years, you don;'t know about it?Feb 09 18:37
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FurnaceBoyDaemonFC: ONGOING!Feb 09 18:37
FurnaceBoyDaemonFC: continuouslyFeb 09 18:37
DaemonFCyeah, usually in collaboration with other willing governments ;)Feb 09 18:37
FurnaceBoyeughFeb 09 18:38
FurnaceBoyyou don't even need enemies outside the US. you have enough withinFeb 09 18:38
FurnaceBoy 09 18:38
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DaemonFCthe British are the bastards spying on usFeb 09 18:38
FurnaceBoyLOL!!!!Feb 09 18:39
FurnaceBoydon't start, please. you were doing so well...Feb 09 18:39
DaemonFCthe NSA spies on British citizens Feb 09 18:39
FurnaceBoyand the CIA kidnaps citizens of all nationalities.Feb 09 18:39
DaemonFCthe British spy on us and tell the NSA what they knowFeb 09 18:39
FurnaceBoywell, yes, of course.Feb 09 18:39
FurnaceBoythat loophole has been revealed :)Feb 09 18:40
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FurnaceBoy 09 18:40
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DaemonFCthe UK was so eager to commit to the Iraq invasion and occupationFeb 09 18:41
FurnaceBoy 09 18:41
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DaemonFCI mean yeah, Canada, Australia, and a bunch of others went along with itFeb 09 18:41
FurnaceBoynot Canada.Feb 09 18:41
FurnaceBoyCanada did not participate in Vietnam either.Feb 09 18:41
DaemonFCbut Tony Blair was like "How many? When? How fast can we get there?"Feb 09 18:41
FurnaceBoyyes, we are aware.Feb 09 18:42
FurnaceBoyDaemonFC: do you know what the CHilcott inquiry is?Feb 09 18:42
DaemonFCnoFeb 09 18:42
FurnaceBoyheheheFeb 09 18:42
FurnaceBoywhere do you get your news from?Feb 09 18:42
DaemonFCI don't, usuallyFeb 09 18:43
FurnaceBoy 09 18:43
FurnaceBoyBlair lied to his party, lied to parliament and lied to his country. Lest we forget, this extended to terrorising his own people. On November 7, 2002, the day before the UN vote on Resolution 1441, which "set the clock ticking" on war, Downing Street began issuing almost daily warnings of imminent terrorist threats against UK ferries, the underground, and major public events. In 2003, Blair Feb 09 18:44
FurnaceBoyordered tanks to ring Heathrow airport - an astonishing action said to be in response to increased terrorist "chatter" warning of a "missile threat".Feb 09 18:44
FurnaceBoyThe Guardian/Observer website records dozens of mentions of articles containing the words "Heathrow" and "threat" between November 2002 and February 2003. These abruptly ceased after February 14 - the day Hans Blix, head of the UNMOVIC arms inspection team in Iraq, presented a key report to the UN, and the day before the biggest anti-war protest march in British history. Thereafter, the Feb 09 18:44
FurnaceBoy"threat" just disappeared - no suspects were caught, no missiles were found, and no further questions were asked. Feb 09 18:44
FurnaceBoythe US-UK coalition manufactured a crisis to +prevent+ inspectors from giving Iraq a clean bill of health. Similarly, in 2002, as the leaked Downing Street memo exposed, the coalition planned to provoke Saddam Hussein into obstructing weapons inspections and so provide a justification for war (the second part of the plan was to provoke an Iraqi military response justifying war through increasedFeb 09 18:44
FurnaceBoy bombing). This is simply not part of the mainstream version of events. Indeed it is not part of the media worldview, which depicts the British state as reasonable and peaceable, rather than as cynical and violent.Feb 09 18:44
FurnaceBoy"As of December 1998, both the U.S. and Britain knew there was no 'smoking gun' in Iraq that could prove that Saddam's government was retaining or reconstituting a WMD capability. Nothing transpired between that time and when the decision was made in 2002 to invade Iraq that fundamentally altered that basic picture. Feb 09 18:45
FurnaceBoy"But having decided on war using WMD as the justification, both the US and Great Britain began the process of fabricating a case after the fact. Lacking new intelligence data on Iraqi WMD, both nations resorted to either recycling old charges that had been disproved by UN inspectors in the past, or fabricating new charges that would not withstand even the most cursory of investigations."Feb 09 18:45
FurnaceBoy In 2004, George Monbiot wrote in the Guardian that "the falsehoods reproduced by the media before the invasion of Iraq were massive and consequential: it is hard to see how Britain could have gone to war if the press had done its job". (Monbiot, 'Our lies led us into war,' The Guardian, July 20, 2004; /2004/jul/20/media.pressandpublishing)Feb 09 18:46
FurnaceBoyAnd so we have the Guardian opining that, in the face of US government propaganda in 2002-2003, "almost everyone buckled".Feb 09 18:47
FurnaceBoyThe elephant tap dancing across the living room floor, shaking the house to its very foundations, is not even mentioned. This is the role of the media in causing the deaths of more than one million living, breathing, dreaming, suffering human beings. This is the role of a media, which did not merely buckle in helping this happen, but which performed the traditional propaganda service it has Feb 09 18:47
FurnaceBoybeen +designed+ to perform in the service of the interests that created it.Feb 09 18:47
-BNtwitter/#boycottnovell-[qu1j0t3] Neat roundup of the #iraq #war #crime, and media complicity, post-#Chilcot 09 18:49
*jweyrich shoots the spammerFeb 09 18:53
jweyrichI mean, the flooder :PFeb 09 18:53
FurnaceBoyit's the only way DaemonFC is going to find this stuff out. :)Feb 09 18:58
DaemonFCyeah, I'll just tell them to knock it offFeb 09 18:58
DaemonFCbecause I have veto power over congress and the president :)Feb 09 18:59
FurnaceBoyDaemonFC: well, it's important to know what's going on.Feb 09 18:59
FurnaceBoyDaemonFC: if your government is invading other countries illegally and on false pretences, you kinda should know.Feb 09 18:59
DaemonFCI'll stage a coup consisting of me and my catFeb 09 19:00
FurnaceBoyDaemonFC: you should be more pissed than anyone that they racked all that up on the platinum Visa for you to pay off.Feb 09 19:00
DaemonFChe'll lay down heavy suppressive fire until they surrender Feb 09 19:00
FurnaceBoyDaemonFC: while pocketing the cash themselves (which was a major objective of the war)Feb 09 19:00
FurnaceBoy(all war)Feb 09 19:00
DaemonFCI really don't care what they do anymoreFeb 09 19:00
DaemonFCnothing I do is going to stop them so why should I?Feb 09 19:01
FurnaceBoythen it will keep happening.Feb 09 19:01
DaemonFCpeople are losing their jobs and being thrown out of their homesFeb 09 19:02
DaemonFCwhy would they care what's happening 4,000 miles away?Feb 09 19:02
DaemonFCwhy should they care?Feb 09 19:03
DaemonFCI'd say if there's going to be a revolt, lynch the fuckers that passed NAFTA and CAFTA and the WIPO/WTO bullshitFeb 09 19:03
DaemonFCand refuse to secure the US/Mexican borderFeb 09 19:03
DaemonFCdeal with the Iraq mess when time permits :)Feb 09 19:04
DaemonFCThe first thing I would do if I was like the Supreme Dictator is withdraw us from the UNFeb 09 19:04
DaemonFCyeah, that's what I'd doFeb 09 19:05
DaemonFCthen I'd void all the "free trade" treaties that don't do anything but suck money out of the US faster than it's coming in from the other partyFeb 09 19:05
FurnaceBoyDaemonFC: the Iraq war is not disconnected from your domestic problems.Feb 09 19:06
FurnaceBoyDaemonFC: it's all part of the same issueFeb 09 19:06
DaemonFCI agree it's not making things better, but it's a symptom of the diseaseFeb 09 19:06
DaemonFCnot the diseaseFeb 09 19:06
FurnaceBoyDaemonFC: you've obviously never read a "free" trade agreementFeb 09 19:07
FurnaceBoyDaemonFC: they are not designed to benefit the other party. to think so, is dangerously naive.Feb 09 19:07
DaemonFCFurnaceBoy, They call it our "trade" with China, but we really don't sell them anything other than raw materials to make shit out of and sell back to usFeb 09 19:07
DaemonFC:)Feb 09 19:08
FurnaceBoyDaemonFC: it is "free" trade agreements that are exporting your worst stupidities (DMCA, GMO, etc, etc) to other countriesFeb 09 19:08
FurnaceBoyread one sometimeFeb 09 19:08
FurnaceBoythey are documents designed to achieve political ends favourable to the USA.Feb 09 19:08
DaemonFCthere's $30 flowing from us to China for every $1 that flows inFeb 09 19:08
FurnaceBoyDaemonFC: Costa Rica is in the process of being threatened Feb 09 19:08
FurnaceBoyDaemonFC: sure! you're idiots for creating the CHina problem.Feb 09 19:08
FurnaceBoyDaemonFC: it's not as if nobody saw this coming. it's freaking obviousFeb 09 19:09
FurnaceBoyDaemonFC: and it's ongoing. nobody is lifting a finger to fix that.Feb 09 19:09
DaemonFCbecause Canada doesn't have cheap Chinese crap flowing inFeb 09 19:09
DaemonFCoh waitFeb 09 19:09
FurnaceBoyit does, fuckwit.Feb 09 19:09
FurnaceBoyas does Europe.Feb 09 19:09
FurnaceBoydoesn't excuse how the USA sleepwalked into thatFeb 09 19:10
FurnaceBoy 09 19:10
phIRCe-BNcTitle: Has the U.S. threatened Costa Rican sugar if IP law is not approved? « TechnoLlama .::. Size~: 109.23 KBFeb 09 19:10
FurnaceBoy^^ there's the purpose of "free" trade agreements, laid out for you.Feb 09 19:10
FurnaceBoyDaemonFC: we have to stop BUYING Chinese crap. and stop IMPORTING it. ALL OF US.Feb 09 19:10
FurnaceBoyDaemonFC: but do we see any progress on this? no.Feb 09 19:10
FurnaceBoyDaemonFC: why is that, do you thinkFeb 09 19:11
DaemonFCthere was a study done where they bought nothing that was made in China and things ended up costing way more (duh) but they couldn't even find some things that weren't importedFeb 09 19:12
DaemonFClike, they had to buy an Italian-made coffee makerFeb 09 19:12
FurnaceBoysure.Feb 09 19:12
DaemonFCit's gotten to the point where it's impossible and/or beyond the means of a working person's wages to not buy cheap Chinese crapFeb 09 19:13
FurnaceBoyDaemonFC: i don't know if you noticed, but US manufacturing has been progressively shut down since WWII.Feb 09 19:13
FurnaceBoyDaemonFC: did ANYONE not think this was a fucking stupid idea?Feb 09 19:13
FurnaceBoyDaemonFC: you basically don't make anything any more except Harleys.Feb 09 19:13
DaemonFCChinese shit, 10 times the failure rate for only half the priceFeb 09 19:13
FurnaceBoyand even those...Feb 09 19:13
DaemonFCwoohoo!Feb 09 19:13
FurnaceBoyDaemonFC: well DUH.Feb 09 19:13
FurnaceBoyDaemonFC: of course it's junk. and somebody is pocketing the profit Feb 09 19:13
FurnaceBoyDaemonFC: *koff* Walmart and all the rest *koff*Feb 09 19:14
FurnaceBoyDaemonFC: you're being screwed. wake up!Feb 09 19:14
FurnaceBoyDaemonFC: yes Canada is deluged with the same junk, as is Europe.Feb 09 19:14
FurnaceBoyDaemonFC: gotta stopFeb 09 19:14
DaemonFCof course Walmart stuff is crap, even as "cheap" as their electronics are for example, you're not getting good hardware for the priceFeb 09 19:14
FurnaceBoyDaemonFC: the spate of dangerous and/or poisonous products recently in USA headlines may help.Feb 09 19:14
DaemonFClike they may have a $198 PC, but it's something that would cost about $100 to slap together yourselfFeb 09 19:15
DaemonFCThey had the $198 PC there recently with a Via C7 I think at 1.2 Ghz, and 512 MB of RAMFeb 09 19:15
FurnaceBoyDaemonFC: the chinese don't even give a shit about their own consumers. remember the melamine milk scandal? (300,000 kids hospitalised) -- that's still happening.Feb 09 19:16
DaemonFCVia sells the CPU/mobo together for $45Feb 09 19:16
DaemonFCbrbFeb 09 19:16
DaemonFCwell, at any rate, the case is definitely the most expensive thing in that systemFeb 09 19:21
DaemonFCcase, psu, cpu, a stick of ram, cheap hard drive, you might be up to $150Feb 09 19:23
DaemonFCI suppose you could slap Vista Basic on it and be up to $200Feb 09 19:24
DaemonFC*grin*Feb 09 19:24
*DaemonFC straps FurnaceBoy in a chair and blasts Weezer for 5 hoursFeb 09 19:26
DaemonFCfeel like talking now? B-)Feb 09 19:27
DaemonFCohhhhFeb 09 19:28
DaemonFCCaribbean Queen by Billy OceanFeb 09 19:28
*DaemonFC turns the subwoofer upFeb 09 19:28
DaemonFClolFeb 09 19:29
-BNtwitter/#boycottnovell-[qu1j0t3] Who knows what backdoors #Microsoft has been asked to put in, knowing that their crud is used by every government & military in the worldFeb 09 19:31
DaemonFCwhich makes it even funnier that Iran is using "pirated" WindowsFeb 09 19:32
Aondoon what systems?Feb 09 19:32
DaemonFCgovernment and private citizensFeb 09 19:33
DaemonFCthey're trying to pry people off of Windows and get them to use "Parsix"Feb 09 19:33
Aondolike everyone else then! :DFeb 09 19:33
AondookFeb 09 19:33
DaemonFCI'd look at Parsix if it wasn't from IranFeb 09 19:33
DaemonFCI'm not going to use an OS that came from Iran :)Feb 09 19:34
DaemonFCspeaking of backdoors that isFeb 09 19:34
DaemonFCno telling what's lurking in thereFeb 09 19:34
Aondowell you can say that about any kind of software. Feb 09 19:35
DaemonFCI didn't even see them put any source code on their siteFeb 09 19:35
DaemonFCso they're violating the GPL I would thinkFeb 09 19:35
DaemonFConce something is compiled, there's no telling what's in thereFeb 09 19:35
DaemonFCsame problem as using WindowsFeb 09 19:35
Aondohmm well it is based on debian is it not? so they should have some deb-src repositories ready?Feb 09 19:36
DaemonFCAondo, Yeah, even with Linux distributions, you want to trust the person that made itFeb 09 19:36
DaemonFCpeople don't get that I guessFeb 09 19:36
DaemonFCit's based on Kanotix, which is based on DebianFeb 09 19:36
DaemonFCI've always had the best luck with stuff based on Debian, cause it is a good solid system to base off ofFeb 09 19:38
AondoAny Linux distro is a good contribution tho. Feb 09 19:38
AondoyupFeb 09 19:38
DaemonFCnot really, there's Xandros, Freespire, all kinds of ways to make a horrible Linux OS that exploits the userFeb 09 19:38
DaemonFCbut those are obscure and dying off anyway :)Feb 09 19:39
Aondo:PFeb 09 19:39
DaemonFCXandros committed to continuing Freespire, but their last release is still based off Ubuntu 7.04Feb 09 19:39
Aondoah heheFeb 09 19:40
DaemonFCand Xandros has not commented on Freespire plans since 2008Feb 09 19:40
DaemonFCit's basically a parking domain now that happens to host a really stale Linux distro from 3 years ago and a forum that hasn't been posted to in 6 months :DFeb 09 19:41
DaemonFCXandros gives you the option of paying them an extra $50 to have Microsoft promise not to sue you for using LinuxFeb 09 19:41
DaemonFCwhich I find hilariousFeb 09 19:41
*trmanco has quit (Quit: Page closed)Feb 09 19:41
DaemonFC 09 19:42
phIRCe-BNcTitle: Error processing the URL: HTTP/1.0 403 Forbidden .::. Size~: 0 KBFeb 09 19:43
DaemonFChmmmmFeb 09 19:43
DaemonFCseems like you might want to get the development version :DFeb 09 19:43
AondoWhat i like to think, is that every linux distro is good, becaus in some way it will always help the upstream software get exposure. atleast on GNU systems. and any exposure will help another distro in the long runFeb 09 19:43
Aondoeven if a distro might exploit its users :PFeb 09 19:43
DaemonFCyeah, but if they botch their distro and that's the first thing someone sees about how Linux performsFeb 09 19:44
jweyrichI share this opinion, since each new distro brings something new to the table.Feb 09 19:44
jweyrichotherwise, it's useless.Feb 09 19:44
*Aondo notes a new word in my vocabulary; botch! :PFeb 09 19:46
jweyrichit exists afaik.Feb 09 19:50
jweyrichah, in yours. misread that.Feb 09 19:50
FurnaceBoyit does.Feb 09 19:50
Aondoin mine yes, heheFeb 09 19:50
FurnaceBoyverb and nounFeb 09 19:50
FurnaceBoyjweyrich: boa tardeFeb 09 19:50
jweyrichit's frequently used by Ubuntu :)Feb 09 19:51
jweyrichFurnaceBoy: olá!Feb 09 19:51
DaemonFCboffed it evenFeb 09 19:51
DaemonFCboffed it to hell!Feb 09 19:51
DaemonFC:PFeb 09 19:51
DaemonFCboff the boffing boffers!Feb 09 19:52
DaemonFCI can't believe I'm listening to CCR :PFeb 09 19:54
FurnaceBoyDaemonFC: boff != botchFeb 09 19:55
DaemonFCboff is a nice way of saying fuckFeb 09 19:55
FurnaceBoyyes. Feb 09 19:55
FurnaceBoybritishismFeb 09 19:55
DaemonFCit's like a PG rated version of fuckFeb 09 19:55
DaemonFCB-)Feb 09 19:55
FurnaceBoyeuphemismFeb 09 19:55
DaemonFCI wonder what format Last.FM streams inFeb 09 19:56
DaemonFCsounds good to me thoughFeb 09 19:56
*FurnaceBoy needs a coffeeFeb 09 19:56
FurnaceBoyschestowitz: do you need any server hardware?Feb 09 19:56
DaemonFCnow it's playing Prince Ali from Aladdin, lolFeb 09 19:57
FurnaceBoySenhor rnb has been very quietFeb 09 19:57
DaemonFCI had to do this song in bandFeb 09 19:59
DaemonFC:PFeb 09 19:59
*jono has quit (Remote host closed the connection)Feb 09 19:59
jweyrichcould anyone please send us some snow? :) we're almost dying.Feb 09 19:59
*jono (~jono@ubuntu/member/jono) has joined #boycottnovellFeb 09 20:00
jweyrich40C makes me useless, even to think.Feb 09 20:00
DaemonFC104? shitFeb 09 20:01
DaemonFCwhere are you?Feb 09 20:01
jweyrichbrazil.Feb 09 20:01
DaemonFCthat explains itFeb 09 20:01
DaemonFCcome freeze your ass off in Indiana :)Feb 09 20:01
jweyrichI wish I could!Feb 09 20:01
DaemonFC27 degrees and snowing like crazyFeb 09 20:02
*DaemonFC wonders what that is in CelsiusFeb 09 20:02
*DaemonFC consults GoogleFeb 09 20:02
jweyrich-2Feb 09 20:02
jweyrichor -3.Feb 09 20:02
DaemonFC-2.77777778 degrees CelsiusFeb 09 20:02
DaemonFC:)Feb 09 20:02
jweyrichwell. close lolFeb 09 20:02
jweyrichmy brain doesn't consider the mantissa :(Feb 09 20:03
jweyrichno SSE.Feb 09 20:03
DaemonFCthe metric system is why NASA put a crater on MarsFeb 09 20:04
DaemonFCfuck the metric system :)Feb 09 20:04
-BNtwitter/#boycottnovell-[thistleweb] Why do #Drupal admins still need to copy settings.php? If every site install needs it, why not have it done already OOTB?Feb 09 20:05
jweyrichthey had problems with rotations too. LOLFeb 09 20:05
DaemonFC 09 20:05
jweyrichgimbal locks FTW.Feb 09 20:05
DaemonFC"NASA lost a $125 million Mars orbiter because a Lockheed Martin engineering team used English units of measurement while the agency's team used the more conventional metric system for a key spacecraft operation, according to a review finding released Thursday."Feb 09 20:06
DaemonFC:PFeb 09 20:06
jweyrichewwFeb 09 20:06
DaemonFCthere was a fistfight that broke out in the halls at JPLFeb 09 20:06
DaemonFC:DFeb 09 20:06
jweyrichI'd pay to see.Feb 09 20:07
jweyrichwell, no payments, they already have your taxes :)Feb 09 20:07
DaemonFC$125 million craterFeb 09 20:07
FurnaceBoyDaemonFC: baghdad $ 1.2 trillion craterFeb 09 20:08
FurnaceBoyDaemonFC: but you know, keep blaming the Metric system :)Feb 09 20:08
jweyrichthat will probably raise the interest on ICFP contests.Feb 09 20:08
DaemonFCyeah, the boffing piece of merde Feb 09 20:08
DaemonFC:)Feb 09 20:08
FurnaceBoyDaemonFC: wow, you're almost... polyglotFeb 09 20:08
FurnaceBoyDaemonFC: you can talk rubbish in multiple languages!Feb 09 20:09
DaemonFCand the pendejos that invented itFeb 09 20:09
-BNtwitter/#boycottnovell-[thistleweb] Evangelicals warn: women bishops will 'put men off ordination' - Times Online - lol, welcome to the stone age 09 20:09
DaemonFC:)Feb 09 20:09
phIRCe-BNcTitle:  Evangelicals warn: women bishops will 'put men off ordination' - Times Online  .::. Size~: 113.32 KBFeb 09 20:09
FurnaceBoywow, that's ... twisted logic.Feb 09 20:12
FurnaceBoyso we need to BAN women because it "might put off men"Feb 09 20:12
FurnaceBoyi wonder if the FA makes more sense than the headline.Feb 09 20:12
jweyrich <- oooopsFeb 09 20:14
DaemonFCMe cago en usted y sus muertos DiosFeb 09 20:14
phIRCe-BNcTitle: Microsoft Security Bulletin MS10-013 - Critical: Vulnerability in Microsoft DirectShow Could Allow Remote Code Execution (977935) .::. Size~: 178.24 KBFeb 09 20:14
DaemonFC:)Feb 09 20:14
jweyrichnap time. see you later.Feb 09 20:17
MinceRwe need to ban all humans, both men and women :>Feb 09 20:17
jweyrichI have a robotic eye, don't include me.Feb 09 20:18
*jweyrich has quit (Quit: some rest.)Feb 09 20:18
DaemonFCMinceR, Pusztítsd el az emberek!Feb 09 20:19
DaemonFCmuahahahaaaaaa!!!Feb 09 20:19
MinceRnot accurate :>Feb 09 20:20
DaemonFCso Google isn't ready to take over the Earth?Feb 09 20:20
DaemonFCI still have time before GoogleBot becomes self-awareFeb 09 20:20
MinceRnot if it needs to do accurate translation to do soFeb 09 20:20
DaemonFCso what did that actually say?Feb 09 20:20
MinceR"destroy all the human"Feb 09 20:21
DaemonFCmeh, it gets the point across I supposeFeb 09 20:21
DaemonFCright up there with "All your base are belong to us!"Feb 09 20:21
DaemonFC 09 20:22
DaemonFCMove zig for great justice!!!Feb 09 20:23
DaemonFC 09 20:36
DaemonFCone of my favorite PC gamesFeb 09 20:36
DaemonFC 09 20:40
phIRCe-BNcTitle: Install and configure Microsoft® Xbox™ and Xbox 360™ controllers under Ubuntu 7.10 - Community Ubuntu Documentation .::. Size~: 21.57 KBFeb 09 20:40
DaemonFCheh, I still have one, wonder if I can make it workFeb 09 20:41
FurnaceBoysend it to meeeeeFeb 09 20:44
-BNtwitter/#boycottnovell-[ml2mst] Refused to install (illegal) version of WinXP on a second hand PC today. If you prefer Windross, fine, go find yourself another idiot :-PFeb 09 20:47
*wispygalaxy (~9f5b975b@gateway/web/freenode/x-jejgozmfmwtlrlku) has joined #boycottnovellFeb 09 20:57
wispygalaxyhello!Feb 09 20:58
wispygalaxyanyone here?Feb 09 21:00
FurnaceBoywispygalaxy: olaFeb 09 21:02
wispygalaxyhowdyFeb 09 21:02
wispygalaxywhere did roy dissapear toFeb 09 21:02
schestowitzHeyFeb 09 21:02
wispygalaxyhi roy!Feb 09 21:02
schestowitzWhat's new?Feb 09 21:02
wispygalaxywell, there's a snowstorm comingFeb 09 21:03
wispygalaxytonightFeb 09 21:03
wispygalaxyclasses for tomorrow are canceledFeb 09 21:03
schestowitzFurnaceBoy: have you met wispygalaxy yet?Feb 09 21:03
FurnaceBoyschestowitz: noFeb 09 21:03
schestowitzShe is among the few girls in the IRC channelFeb 09 21:03
wispygalaxyhow do you do, FBFeb 09 21:03
FurnaceBoyschestowitz: unless you count the aboveFeb 09 21:03
wispygalaxyhahaFeb 09 21:03
wispygalaxywallclimber is another femaleFeb 09 21:03
FurnaceBoywispygalaxy: hi, great, thanks. well metFeb 09 21:03
schestowitzFurnaceBoy is trmanco's neighbourFeb 09 21:03
wispygalaxysame to you!Feb 09 21:03
wispygalaxyreally?Feb 09 21:03
FurnaceBoynow that he invaded my country, yes!Feb 09 21:03
wispygalaxywhat's up with tonyFeb 09 21:03
wispygalaxylolFeb 09 21:04
FurnaceBoybut i haven;t met him in person yetFeb 09 21:04
wispygalaxyme neitherFeb 09 21:04
schestowitzFurnaceBoy: not invades, dann it!Feb 09 21:04
schestowitz"Liberated"Feb 09 21:04
FurnaceBoyschestowitz: :DFeb 09 21:04
wispygalaxyXDFeb 09 21:04
FurnaceBoyschestowitz: i'll be sure to greet him with flowers, etcFeb 09 21:04
wispygalaxywe should have a get-togetherFeb 09 21:04
wispygalaxylolFeb 09 21:04
FurnaceBoywispygalaxy: you're in this province too?Feb 09 21:04
wispygalaxynope, in the USFeb 09 21:04
wispygalaxyroy's in GBFeb 09 21:04
FurnaceBoyyeah, i figuredFeb 09 21:05
wispygalaxybut we are technically having a get-together nowFeb 09 21:05
FurnaceBoytrue.Feb 09 21:05
wispygalaxyvirtuallyFeb 09 21:05
schestowitzThe monster has taken a bite of the tomatoes... 09 21:05
schestowitzBy "Joseph Tartakoff  "Feb 09 21:05
FurnaceBoyon the internet, nobody can tell you're drunk!Feb 09 21:05
wispygalaxywhat is we had video conferening in this IRC channelFeb 09 21:05
wispygalaxyif*Feb 09 21:05
FurnaceBoyschestowitz: oh, my favourite shillFeb 09 21:05
wispygalaxynews corp at it againFeb 09 21:06
schestowitzFurnaceBoy: or "when/if you're a dog"Feb 09 21:06
wispygalaxywoof woofFeb 09 21:06
wispygalaxyim just being silly :PFeb 09 21:06
schestowitzNoFeb 09 21:06
schestowitzIt's a famous jokeFeb 09 21:06
wispygalaxylolFeb 09 21:06
FurnaceBoyon the internet no-one can tell you're Al GoreFeb 09 21:06
schestowitz 09 21:07
phIRCe-BNcTitle: Not a web page! Aborting image/jpeg type .::. Size~: 0 KBFeb 09 21:07
wispygalaxyhehFeb 09 21:07
wispygalaxyphIRCe is still here?!Feb 09 21:07
wispygalaxyhe's being civil nowFeb 09 21:07
schestowitzFurnaceBoy: in the White House, no-one can tell if you're telling the truthFeb 09 21:07
wispygalaxyroy, did tony tame him?Feb 09 21:07
schestowitzThey can tell when you lie thoughFeb 09 21:07
schestowitzYour lips move.. :-)Feb 09 21:07
wispygalaxy:DFeb 09 21:08
schestowitzwispygalaxy: yes, it's hereFeb 09 21:08
schestowitzWell, it in CAFeb 09 21:08
wispygalaxyforever and ever?Feb 09 21:08
schestowitzNothing lives foreverFeb 09 21:08
schestowitzIt will need to replicate to other sotrage mediaFeb 09 21:08
FurnaceBoy:)Feb 09 21:08
wispygalaxyi guess there's no hope for the fountain of youthFeb 09 21:08
FurnaceBoyschestowitz: i have a nice warm server bed for himFeb 09 21:08
wispygalaxyheheFeb 09 21:09
schestowitzI know, thanksFeb 09 21:09
schestowitzIt's a sheFeb 09 21:09
FurnaceBoyoopsFeb 09 21:09
wispygalaxylogger-bot should join himFeb 09 21:09
FurnaceBoyon irc, you can't tell whether the bot is a girl or boyFeb 09 21:09
schestowitzwispygalaxy sez so anyway6Feb 09 21:09
wispygalaxyhaha yepFeb 09 21:09
schestowitzon irc, you can't tell whether the user is a girl or boyFeb 09 21:09
wispygalaxyi said that logger-bot is female, and phIRCe is maleFeb 09 21:09
wispygalaxyi have to tell people im femaleFeb 09 21:10
wispygalaxythey cant guess thatFeb 09 21:10
schestowitz 09 21:10
phIRCe-BNcTitle: The Open Sourcerer  » Is Canonical Becoming The New Microsoft? .::. Size~: 107.29 KBFeb 09 21:10
schestowitz 09 21:10
phIRCe-BNcTitle:   Is Canonical Becoming The New Microsoft? | Ubuntu Geek .::. Size~: 47.64 KBFeb 09 21:10
wispygalaxyubuntu will not be windowsFeb 09 21:10
wispygalaxydont sell outFeb 09 21:10
schestowitzjono won't like thisFeb 09 21:10
schestowitzwispygalaxy: it's notFeb 09 21:10
wispygalaxywhewFeb 09 21:10
schestowitzIt's a silly headlineFeb 09 21:10
jonoagreedFeb 09 21:10
wispygalaxyahhh i seeFeb 09 21:10
wispygalaxyhey jonoFeb 09 21:10
jonoits an attention grabberFeb 09 21:11
jonohowdy wispygalaxy :)Feb 09 21:11
jonohey schestowitz :)Feb 09 21:11
wispygalaxyim just stopping byFeb 09 21:11
schestowitzHey!Feb 09 21:11
wispygalaxyim going to have more snow tonight, after the blizzard over the weekendFeb 09 21:11
wispygalaxyi was literally snowed in for a dayFeb 09 21:11
wispygalaxyi remember this blog, "the open sourcer"Feb 09 21:12
wispygalaxyive read it a few timesFeb 09 21:12
wispygalaxywhat's up with COLA, roy?Feb 09 21:13
sebsebsebjono  That was interesting to read this morning your chat with goblinFeb 09 21:13
schestowitzCOLA is OKFeb 09 21:13
wispygalaxyno trolls picking on you?Feb 09 21:14
-BNtwitter/#boycottnovell-[ml2mst] Oh ja, ik doe ook: FreeDOS, *BSD, AROS, Haiku etc... ;-)Feb 09 21:14
schestowitzFurnaceBoy: Feb 09 21:14
schestowitz"He was previously the Microsoft beat reporter at the Seattle Post-Intelligencer and author of the P-I’s Microsoft Blog. "Feb 09 21:14
schestowitz 09 21:14
jonosebsebseb, gotchaFeb 09 21:14
schestowitzwispygalaxy: just libelling meFeb 09 21:14
wispygalaxy:(Feb 09 21:15
schestowitzSpreading false rumours in purposeFeb 09 21:15
FurnaceBoyschestowitz: yeah i spotted this the other dayFeb 09 21:15
wispygalaxythey shouldnt be scared of the truth, royFeb 09 21:15
FurnaceBoyschestowitz: all one cosy establishment club all looking in the one directionFeb 09 21:15
wispygalaxyif they attack, you must be doing the right thingFeb 09 21:15
FurnaceBoyschestowitz: hypnotised by gates' billionsFeb 09 21:15
FurnaceBoywispygalaxy: exactlyFeb 09 21:15
wispygalaxyyesFeb 09 21:15
wispygalaxypeople will write good articles about MS if they're paidFeb 09 21:16
schestowitzwispygalaxy: Linux does wellFeb 09 21:16
schestowitzI don't pay attention to those trollsFeb 09 21:16
wispygalaxyi know :)Feb 09 21:16
schestowitzAs I told Mark the other day, it means I do something right if they attack with libelFeb 09 21:16
wispygalaxythey tease and harass youFeb 09 21:16
wispygalaxymark kent in cola?Feb 09 21:16
schestowitzAlso, it means Linux does wellFeb 09 21:17
schestowitzOtherwise they would pass on to trolling and harassing something elseFeb 09 21:17
wispygalaxylinux is the future, people are too blinded to see thatFeb 09 21:17
wispygalaxytrue, royFeb 09 21:17
schestowitzSome might be employed by those external PR agencies of MicrosoftFeb 09 21:17
schestowitzThey have always had bulliedFeb 09 21:17
wispygalaxysome people like to troll for fun without compensationFeb 09 21:17
schestowitzThis was exposed by invetsigators and confirmedFeb 09 21:17
sebsebsebjono  Gimp being removed from the default install, obviously a lot of experienced users aren't that keen,  however  the average user  will want to do some basic photo editing and that's about it.  Plus Gimp is still in the repo so people can install that.   Open Office being removed from the netbook version to be replaced by Google Docs, well people aren't that keen on that since it's propritary and Google privacy issues or whatever it is.  Feb 09 21:18
wispygalaxyPR guys are revving up their game online.. they know people look for info on the InternetFeb 09 21:18
sebsebsebVideo editing software in the default install  I am for that, even though I won't be doing it, but it's something that certain average computer users want to do,  edit their home videos that kind of thing.Feb 09 21:18
schestowitzwispygalaxy: it's the present tooFeb 09 21:18
schestowitzOn the desktop less so, _yet_Feb 09 21:18
wispygalaxythey post fake success stories with windows 7Feb 09 21:18
wispygalaxyi truly think the OS wont matter in the long runFeb 09 21:18
schestowitzsebsebseb: GIMP gets simpler in DecemberFeb 09 21:18
wispygalaxylinux will do well hereFeb 09 21:18
schestowitzThey add single-windows option for PHtoheadsFeb 09 21:19
schestowitz*single windowsFeb 09 21:19
schestowitz*>single windowFeb 09 21:19
wispygalaxymy sister is into photographyFeb 09 21:19
schestowitzwispygalaxy: they do thatFeb 09 21:19
wispygalaxyshe keeps taking annoying random pictures of me when she thinks im not looking :PFeb 09 21:19
sebsebsebjono  I think what goblin and oiahom ( or however his name is spelt )  aren't that keen on how Canonical are just making decisions about what goes in the default install, without asking users first.Feb 09 21:19
schestowitzI have press releases showing thidsFeb 09 21:19
wispygalaxyinterestingFeb 09 21:20
schestowitzMicrosoft hires people and gifts them for doing things like and pretend to be fansFeb 09 21:20
sebsebsebjono without asking the community first,  and obviously I don't mean the community members, I mean everyoneFeb 09 21:20
schestowitzI covered this beforeFeb 09 21:20
schestowitzI posted to the FTCFeb 09 21:20
DaemonFChmmm, the RadeonHD 5500 seems to not be any faster than my 4670Feb 09 21:20
schestowitzBut the legal system is for the richFeb 09 21:20
DaemonFCit just supports DirectX 11 and uses a bit less power :)Feb 09 21:20
wispygalaxyuh-oh royFeb 09 21:20
schestowitzThat includes corporationsFeb 09 21:20
wispygalaxydaemon, are you planning to get a SSD?Feb 09 21:20
DaemonFCwispygalaxy, yeah, eventuallyFeb 09 21:20
wispygalaxyi think it runs coolerFeb 09 21:21
DaemonFCcapacity has to go up and price has to come down :)Feb 09 21:21
wispygalaxydisk HDs are too loudFeb 09 21:21
FurnaceBoyschestowitz: it's worse than it appears. the rich have the means to make frivolous, fraudulent suits while the rest of us do not. I've seen this done,Feb 09 21:21
wispygalaxyyep daemonFeb 09 21:21
DaemonFCI'm not keen on paying thousands of dollars for the same 1 TB of storage I have nowFeb 09 21:21
sebsebsebschestowitz  You mean the single window mode?Feb 09 21:21
wispygalaxyyes, i think it'll take a while for SSDs to be affordable for allFeb 09 21:21
wispygalaxybut it's a good investmentFeb 09 21:22
schestowitz 09 21:22
phIRCe-BNcTitle: Global Mobile Broadband Traffic Up 72%  | WebProNews .::. Size~: 31.42 KBFeb 09 21:22
DaemonFCwispygalaxy, By the time I consider an SSD seriously, BtrFS will have probably been stable for quite some time Feb 09 21:22
wispygalaxyhmmm good pointFeb 09 21:22
wispygalaxyi want something durableFeb 09 21:22
schestowitzFurnaceBoy: more than thatFeb 09 21:22
FurnaceBoyDaemonFC: why would you want ssd? what's the motive?Feb 09 21:22
schestowitzThink about the law...Feb 09 21:22
wispygalaxyim afriad of breaking a HD with disks insideFeb 09 21:22
DaemonFCright now I'd probably use Ext4 with noatime and the journal turned offFeb 09 21:22
DaemonFCor to writebackFeb 09 21:22
FurnaceBoyDaemonFC: ah, performanceFeb 09 21:22
schestowitzThe laws are intended to defend the rich from the poorFeb 09 21:22
FurnaceBoyschestowitz: yesFeb 09 21:22
wispygalaxyi dont know how to manipulate my file system that well :(Feb 09 21:23
schestowitzIf the poor has reason to steal from the rich, that's enforcedFeb 09 21:23
*FurnaceBoy wonders where rnb isFeb 09 21:23
schestowitzIf banksters steal a trillion from the poor, no policingFeb 09 21:23
DaemonFCwispygalaxy, Just mount options on /etc/fstabFeb 09 21:23
schestowitzIt's all arse-backwardsFeb 09 21:23
FurnaceBoywispygalaxy: noatime is a mount option, but you probably don't  need it.Feb 09 21:23
wispygalaxyill look into that, thanks!Feb 09 21:23
schestowitzRich people are rarely arrestedFeb 09 21:23
FurnaceBoywispygalaxy: don't turn the journal offFeb 09 21:23
schestowitzUnless they commit a 'poor man's' crime like rapeFeb 09 21:23
wispygalaxyi can always use new tipsFeb 09 21:23
FurnaceBoywispygalaxy: the filesystem is fragile enough as it is.Feb 09 21:23
wispygalaxyok furnanceboyFeb 09 21:23
DaemonFCI use XFS with noatime,noikeep,inode64,attr2Feb 09 21:23
FurnaceBoywispygalaxy: the hardest problem isn't speed, it's data integrityFeb 09 21:24
wispygalaxyoh i seeFeb 09 21:24
DaemonFCweird things can happen on XFS volumes over 1 TB without inode64Feb 09 21:24
wispygalaxydata is valuable, and it more valuable than the cost of the HDFeb 09 21:24
sebsebsebjono  oh yeah the thing about how the core apps are all apparnatly meant to be open source, that's another reason why people aren't that keen on  the plan of  Open Office being replaced by Google Apps in the net book versionFeb 09 21:24
DaemonFCespecially if you use xfs_growfsFeb 09 21:24
FurnaceBoywispygalaxy: yes!Feb 09 21:24
wispygalaxyit would take me weeks and weeks to restore data if i had a HD crashFeb 09 21:24
FurnaceBoywispygalaxy: do not underestimate the value of your data,... never set options which make it less safeFeb 09 21:24
wispygalaxyi need to back stuff upFeb 09 21:24
FurnaceBoywispygalaxy: you must have  a backup; all disks dieFeb 09 21:25
wispygalaxywow, really?Feb 09 21:25
FurnaceBoywispygalaxy: and RAID is not a backupFeb 09 21:25
wispygalaxythats severeFeb 09 21:25
FurnaceBoywispygalaxy: they're like nexus 6. finite lifespan.Feb 09 21:25
wispygalaxyis tape reliable?  (not that id use it- dont know how to!)Feb 09 21:25
FurnaceBoywispygalaxy: it can beFeb 09 21:25
FurnaceBoywispygalaxy: it's more expensive thoughFeb 09 21:25
FurnaceBoywispygalaxy: using extra disks is cheaperFeb 09 21:25
wispygalaxyok ill try that outFeb 09 21:26
FurnaceBoywispygalaxy: they're so cheap now.Feb 09 21:26
wispygalaxymy dad used to burn data on CD-RsFeb 09 21:26
FurnaceBoywispygalaxy: don't buy the premium models, get the one that has lowest $/gbFeb 09 21:26
wispygalaxybut now i think that those disks might failFeb 09 21:26
FurnaceBoywispygalaxy: for backupFeb 09 21:26
wispygalaxyok, ill have a look at the ratesFeb 09 21:26
FurnaceBoywispygalaxy: yeah they don't last forever.Feb 09 21:26
FurnaceBoywispygalaxy: also, CD-R and DVD-R are too small to be practicalFeb 09 21:26
wispygalaxyjewel cases take up too much roomFeb 09 21:27
wispygalaxyfor CDsFeb 09 21:27
FurnaceBoythat too, and it's slow.Feb 09 21:27
FurnaceBoyextra drives is really very easyFeb 09 21:27
FurnaceBoyplug em in weekly and backupFeb 09 21:27
wispygalaxyin the future, there will be less and less optical drives i thinkFeb 09 21:27
wispygalaxyso i better swtich to USBFeb 09 21:27
wispygalaxyi have some USB driveFeb 09 21:27
wispygalaxybut i dont really backup on thosesFeb 09 21:27
wispygalaxythose*Feb 09 21:28
sebsebsebJono  Is starting to annoy some of the experienced  Desktop Linux users here and there  with later releases,  but it's still a good distro for new users,  who might pay for Canonical services,  more space for Ubuntu One,  buy music from that music store that is apparnatly coming etc. That's the target audiance really, since Canonical want to make money.  Plus us experienced users have other distros anyway.Feb 09 21:28
sebsebsebheh Jone is starting to annoy...Feb 09 21:28
sebsebsebno that was meant to say UbuntuFeb 09 21:28
jono:)Feb 09 21:28
sebsebseband  I am typing in names at the  moment, since  some little issue with this channel at the moment, and so auto complete won't workFeb 09 21:28
jonosorry on the phone, sebsebseb, will respond when I am doneFeb 09 21:28
wispygalaxyi think many distros, not just one, is good for linux.. people have different tastesFeb 09 21:28
sebsebsebJono ok npFeb 09 21:28
FurnaceBoywispygalaxy: true datFeb 09 21:29
wispygalaxy:)Feb 09 21:29
FurnaceBoywispygalaxy: i wish ppl would defend diversity more Feb 09 21:29
sebsebsebwispygalaxy indeed at thatFeb 09 21:29
FurnaceBoywispygalaxy: too much One True XFeb 09 21:29
wispygalaxyhahaFeb 09 21:29
wispygalaxyyes, i welcome new thingsFeb 09 21:29
FurnaceBoyheheheFeb 09 21:29
FurnaceBoylet's promote experimentalismFeb 09 21:29
wispygalaxysome people are just too content with the way things are nowFeb 09 21:30
wispygalaxyill join youFeb 09 21:30
FurnaceBoymutation is an inseparable part of evolutionFeb 09 21:30
sebsebsebnewer is not always better, and it depends on the user as well,  if something that is newer is better for them or not, and sometimes their hardwareFeb 09 21:30
wispygalaxyevolve into something betterFeb 09 21:30
FurnaceBoysebsebseb: +1Feb 09 21:30
FurnaceBoywispygalaxy: yesFeb 09 21:30
FurnaceBoywispygalaxy: there needs to be a way to generate mutations/noveltyFeb 09 21:30
wispygalaxywhy stay with the same thing?  maybe er can do betterFeb 09 21:30
wispygalaxywe*Feb 09 21:30
wispygalaxyim just on a rant :PFeb 09 21:30
FurnaceBoyheheFeb 09 21:30
sebsebseb9.10 is just hte start,  Ubuntu One I don't want to use that  personalley,   those social features that are coming for 10.04 probably won't really be for me, but  both things are good for a lot of the average conputer users,  the ones that want to get away from Windows and the viruses and such, and use something more secureFeb 09 21:31
sebsebsebthe target audiance of UbuntuFeb 09 21:31
DaemonFC"What do you get when you mix DirectX 11, a trio of display outputs (though, bear in mind, the card on our test bench doesn't support three displays), bitstreaming, and a $10 price increase to the Radeon HD 4670? You get a Radeon HD 5570, more or less. This card is a tad faster than its predecessor, but performance is really quite similar."Feb 09 21:31
DaemonFChehFeb 09 21:31
wispygalaxybut i truly think that people will accept change more and more these days... the economy is so fast paced that you cant stay with one ideaFeb 09 21:31
wispygalaxydo you like opengl, daemon?Feb 09 21:32
wispygalaxyi havent used ubuntu in a whileFeb 09 21:32
schestowitz 09 21:32
sebsebsebwisphygalaxy what distro are you on?Feb 09 21:32
phIRCe-BNcTitle: Germany's Choice  | STRATFOR .::. Size~: 52.41 KBFeb 09 21:32
wispygalaxyim using debianFeb 09 21:32
amarsh04dittoFeb 09 21:32
wispygalaxybut im going to change distros i thinkFeb 09 21:32
sebsebsebit's good to be clear to new users I think that use Ubuntu,  that other channels existFeb 09 21:32
sebsebsebother channels uh distrosFeb 09 21:32
wispygalaxycool, amarsh04Feb 09 21:32
wispygalaxyyes, let people know what they can haveFeb 09 21:33
sebsebsebI mean if doing support for example, sometimes it's a good idea to mention other distrosFeb 09 21:33
wispygalaxyif they get bored with ubuntu, then they might get bored of linux.  let them know there's more to linuxFeb 09 21:33
sebsebsebplus distros should work a bit more together, be more compatiable with each other really, so they can work together to compete against Windows and Mac OS X more :DFeb 09 21:33
sebsebsebor if something doesn't work on Ubuntu that they wantFeb 09 21:34
wispygalaxythere really needs to be in-store demonstrations of linuxFeb 09 21:34
amarsh04I've been impressed with the progress, but there are still a few blockers before I can try KDE 4.x (Quanta mainly)Feb 09 21:34
sebsebsebthey might just go back to Windows, but that thing worked on another distroFeb 09 21:34
wispygalaxyinteroperability is vitalFeb 09 21:34
sebsebsebtake wireless for example, common issue with Ubuntu, but  is more likely to just work on MandrivaFeb 09 21:34
wispygalaxypeople might think it's a road block if they cant use their programs freely from distro to distro... idkFeb 09 21:34
sebsebsebwireless is important, if it doesn't work for people,  not all of them are going to try and configure it, a lot will just go back to WindowsFeb 09 21:35
schestowitz 09 21:35
phIRCe-BNcTitle: Slashdot Your Rights Online Story | SourceForge Removes Blanket Blocking .::. Size~: 143.4 KBFeb 09 21:35
schestowitzwispygalaxy: interoperability can be a bad wordFeb 09 21:35
schestowitzYou probably should prefer saying "Standards" :-)Feb 09 21:35
wispygalaxywireless is cool... i still use wired though :PFeb 09 21:35
sebsebsebschestowitz I already read about that,  on some other siteFeb 09 21:35
wispygalaxyhaha roy, i shouldFeb 09 21:35
sebsebsebthat was just an example sound is another oneFeb 09 21:35
schestowitzHardware device need only specify support for Linux/BSDFeb 09 21:35
wispygalaxystandards that arent lobbied by a corporationFeb 09 21:35
sebsebsebpulseaudio can be a right issue in Ubuntu oh yes it can, butFeb 09 21:35
schestowitzFor programs it's tricky because of versions of x server and DEsFeb 09 21:36
sebsebsebI had an issue with 9.10 and Mandriva in factFeb 09 21:36
sebsebsebsound woudn't work in Virtualbox,  then someone told me to disable pulseaudio in the Mandriva Control Centre, and yep that fixed itFeb 09 21:36
wispygalaxyeach day, hardware vendors are warming up to linuxFeb 09 21:36
schestowitzwispygalaxy: ysFeb 09 21:36
schestowitzBut standards are more than paid-for ISO stampFeb 09 21:36
sebsebsebas far as I know can't just disable pulseaudio in Ubuntu, also I was reading stuff and it seems removing it isn't the best idea, becasue then it will stop the sound thing working  or whateverFeb 09 21:36
schestowitzThey are consensus among companiesFeb 09 21:36
schestowitzAnd governments..Feb 09 21:36
schestowitzAnd academic intitutionFeb 09 21:36
wispygalaxyso MS pays govts to agree Feb 09 21:36
schestowitzThe world is aware (well, IT world is aware) that Microsoft scammed the systemFeb 09 21:37
wispygalaxyMS tells youths that to do well with computers, they need to know windows, .NET, etcFeb 09 21:37
sebsebsebUbuntu would benefit off a control  centre that is like Mandriva's or even something that is like control panel in WindowsFeb 09 21:37
schestowitzWhereas we all use EthernetFeb 09 21:37
schestowitzThat's accepted everyoneFeb 09 21:37
schestowitzLike light bulb sizesFeb 09 21:37
wispygalaxykids my age think they are good with computers just because they use excel well Feb 09 21:37
wispygalaxyits sadFeb 09 21:37
sebsebseboh didn't type in Jono 's name ,but now I have so :D anyway Jono  the message just nowFeb 09 21:37
schestowitzwispygalaxy: yesFeb 09 21:38
sebsebsebwispgalaxy how old are you?Feb 09 21:38
wispygalaxyim 21Feb 09 21:38
schestowitz"Ask the partner to give you heads up on customer situations – bribe them!" -Steve Winfield, MicrosoftFeb 09 21:38
sebsebsebyeah it is sad when  you got people who think they are good at  computers, because they  know Windows quite wellFeb 09 21:38
sebsebsebyou well weFeb 09 21:38
wispygalaxythey have no idea about other platformsFeb 09 21:38
sebsebsebshould be learning  Open Office and Microsoft Office at eductational establishments these days, but no for most of themFeb 09 21:39
sebsebsebalso use other operaing systems a bit yeahFeb 09 21:39
sebsebsebthey don't teach "computing"  they teach  "Microsoft" or well propritary softwaeFeb 09 21:39
wispygalaxythere are many tools for getting the job done... but people dont know they exist.  they just know java, Visual basicFeb 09 21:39
sebsebsebyeah they just know what the companies give themFeb 09 21:40
sebsebsebthe propritary software companiesFeb 09 21:40
wispygalaxyyes, they teach MS software at schoolsFeb 09 21:40
sebsebsebwell Firefox is becoming main strame, so that's an exceptionFeb 09 21:40
wispygalaxypeople stick with what comes with the computer.. they dont care about exploring new softwareFeb 09 21:40
wispygalaxyit's sort of lazyFeb 09 21:40
sebsebsebwe have choice for  food and so on clothesFeb 09 21:41
sebsebsebcomputer software nah,  unless we find out about it ourselfFeb 09 21:41
sebsebsebor someone tells usFeb 09 21:41
wispygalaxythere's no advertisingFeb 09 21:41
sebsebsebotherwise it's Microsoft and thatFeb 09 21:41
wispygalaxyyesFeb 09 21:41
sebsebsebI hope Canonical will eventaully do a TV advert or something like thatFeb 09 21:41
sebsebseb,but  let's be honestFeb 09 21:41
sebsebsebis Ubuntu ready for the mass's at the moment? nopeFeb 09 21:41
wispygalaxyMS has lots of cash to throw around, especially for FUD and ads.. so linux needs a new way to get knownFeb 09 21:41
sebsebsebis it ready for a lot of people though?  yesFeb 09 21:42
sebsebsebmany of which aren't that technical alsoFeb 09 21:42
-BNtwitter/#boycottnovell-[thistleweb] is there a use case for #Drupal *not* to have the default,settings.php and files, themes, modules etc folders created OOTB?Feb 09 21:42
wispygalaxyi wasnt technical when i started ubuntuFeb 09 21:42
sebsebsebalso Canonical would need enough money, before they can deal  with the mass'sFeb 09 21:42
wispygalaxypeople think they wont be supported if they try linux, there needs to be lots of help for them.  we are on the right track for that i think (forums)Feb 09 21:43
sebsebsebsome people want their Iphone's and such to just work on Ubuntu, that's another issue that can't just be solvedFeb 09 21:43
DaemonFC"Somebody's Watching Me" just came onFeb 09 21:43
wispygalaxyfirms are being too stubborn and dont want to work together.  this is bad for linux :(Feb 09 21:43
*DaemonFC turns up the subwoofer againFeb 09 21:43
DaemonFC:)Feb 09 21:43
wispygalaxyi only have lame earbud headphones hereFeb 09 21:43
sebsebsebwispygalaxy  distro venders should work more with each otherFeb 09 21:43
sebsebsebwhat distro are you on?Feb 09 21:44
DaemonFCI have two subwoofers, lolFeb 09 21:44
wispygalaxydebian Feb 09 21:44
sebsebsebyeah you did sayFeb 09 21:44
wispygalaxyyepFeb 09 21:44
-BNtwitter/#boycottnovell-[qu1j0t3] >@drgrist RT @JaymiHeimbuch: Data Centers= .5% total US electricity use // also, easy to reduce+consolidate. #microsoft is huge energy wasteFeb 09 21:44
wispygalaxyi dont have fancy audio equipmentFeb 09 21:44
sebsebseba lot of people still don't get it what Ubuntu really is aboutFeb 09 21:44
wispygalaxybut i think its good to enhance the listening experienceFeb 09 21:44
sebsebsebthey just think free OS that can be used instead of WindowsFeb 09 21:44
DaemonFC 09 21:44
phIRCe-BNcTitle: expressionist BASS .::. Size~: 100.11 KBFeb 09 21:44
sebsebsebthey don't understand about the software freedoms etc, a lot of themFeb 09 21:44
DaemonFCbest speakers EVERFeb 09 21:44
wispygalaxycoolFeb 09 21:44
wispygalaxythey've been brainwashed by apple, which controls the hardware and software.  they were made not to careFeb 09 21:45
DaemonFCthe bass on these things is incredible for their sizeFeb 09 21:45
sebsebsebyeah Apple actsauly worse than Microsoft reallyFeb 09 21:45
sebsebsebin fact the guy who told me aboutFeb 09 21:45
sebsebsebwell MozillaFeb 09 21:45
sebsebseband Open Office and Cygwin and Feb 09 21:45
sebsebsebDev C++Feb 09 21:45
sebsebseband  Linux yeahFeb 09 21:45
wispygalaxyhow often you use them?Feb 09 21:45
sebsebsebhow often I use what?Feb 09 21:46
wispygalaxysry, daemon, i mentFeb 09 21:46
sebsebsebanyway he  used to use SlackwareFeb 09 21:46
DaemonFCthey're my PC speakers :)Feb 09 21:46
wispygalaxyahh Feb 09 21:46
sebsebseband he got me using  loads of this great software in  2003/4Feb 09 21:46
wispygalaxygood palFeb 09 21:46
sebsebseband guess what happended to this guy?Feb 09 21:46
wispygalaxyi have no clueFeb 09 21:46
sebsebsebwell I would of found out about this stuff myself I expect, if he hadn't told meFeb 09 21:47
sebsebsebanyway so yeah Linux user going MacFeb 09 21:47
sebsebsebyep  he went from Slackware to Mac OS XFeb 09 21:47
wispygalaxyits good to branch outFeb 09 21:47
sebsebsebgood to branch out?Feb 09 21:47
wispygalaxymaybe he likes eye candyFeb 09 21:47
wispygalaxybranch out to new things, i meanFeb 09 21:47
sebsebsebnow two other people online who use Desktop Linux at the moment, who want to get Mac OS X as wellFeb 09 21:47
sebsebsebknow not now aboeFeb 09 21:47
sebsebsebno  I think that guy mainly got a Mac, since they are popular at universitiesFeb 09 21:48
wispygalaxyyeah, i see a lot of macs here tooFeb 09 21:48
wispygalaxythere are a surpising number of people with XP on their laptopsFeb 09 21:48
sebsebsebLinux to Mac is a bit :( thoughFeb 09 21:49
wispygalaxyi thought they would buy the new laptop with vistaFeb 09 21:49
wispygalaxyis it limiting, seb?Feb 09 21:49
sebsebsebis what limiting?Feb 09 21:49
wispygalaxydo you feel less free?Feb 09 21:49
sebsebsebI don't have a Mac part of me wants one, but only since it's an OS I lack, oh and the hardware looks niceFeb 09 21:49
wispygalaxyi like shiny stuff too ;)Feb 09 21:50
sebsebsebmy computer useage is just fine on Desktop LinuxFeb 09 21:50
sebsebsebmost of itFeb 09 21:50
sebsebseboh and for things I can't just do that I might want to do, well WindowsFeb 09 21:50
wispygalaxywindows is a necessary evilFeb 09 21:50
wispygalaxyfor some peopleFeb 09 21:50
sebsebsebI hardly use it, but I  will be using software soon, that well  I will use on WIndows if it won't just work in Wine, or  after very basic trying to get it to workFeb 09 21:51
sebsebsebyeah Windows so either Vista on the dual boot, or XP in a virtual machineFeb 09 21:51
wispygalaxyi wonder how long people will use XPFeb 09 21:51
sebsebsebwellFeb 09 21:51
sebsebsebApril 2014Feb 09 21:51
wispygalaxydo you think it'll still be used in the 2020's?Feb 09 21:51
sebsebsebis when the support runs outFeb 09 21:51
FurnaceBoywispygalaxy: the point is it's much LESS necessary than people are misled to believeFeb 09 21:52
wispygalaxyoh yeah, the support,.. still some people dont care about that and stay with their softwareFeb 09 21:52
FurnaceBoywispygalaxy: the problem has all kinds of layers, ignorance + misinformation + lock-inFeb 09 21:52
sebsebsebWindows has certain advantages over Mac OS X and Desktop Linux reallyFeb 09 21:52
wispygalaxypeople think its the end of the world if they cant game on windowsFeb 09 21:52
sebsebsebFurnanceBoy who is less evil?Feb 09 21:52
wispygalaxywell, there're wine and a great library of linux gamesFeb 09 21:52
sebsebsebanyway  what I just said those ReactOS people know thatFeb 09 21:52
DaemonFC 09 21:52
phIRCe-BNcTitle: Not a web page! Aborting image/jpeg type .::. Size~: 0 KBFeb 09 21:52
FurnaceBoysebsebseb: we need zero tolerance for microsoftFeb 09 21:53
DaemonFCyeah, it's ghettoFeb 09 21:53
DaemonFCbut you get the idea B-)Feb 09 21:53
FurnaceBoysebsebseb: same approach as is used to eliminate mafiaFeb 09 21:53
wispygalaxyit looks very futuristic!Feb 09 21:53
FurnaceBoysebsebseb: same kind of organisationFeb 09 21:53
wispygalaxyare those yours, daemon?Feb 09 21:53
FurnaceBoysebsebseb: consumer revoltFeb 09 21:53
DaemonFCyesFeb 09 21:53
sebsebsebWindows has certain advantages or well good things about it, and the ReactOS people know that http://www.reactos.orgFeb 09 21:53
phIRCe-BNcTitle: Frontpage - ReactOS Website .::. Size~: 17.98 KBFeb 09 21:54
wispygalaxyi dont have a proper pair of headphones, the earbuds can be annoyingFeb 09 21:54
wispygalaxyi cant wear them fot a long timeFeb 09 21:54
sebsebsebwisphygalaxy will people still be using Windows XP in the 2020's  sure I guess so, some old XP install's that are aroundFeb 09 21:54
sebsebseband virtual machinesFeb 09 21:54
sebsebsebin fact I remember I read a comment to something not that long ago, how  some small business or whatever had done XP in a vmFeb 09 21:55
wispygalaxyby then, i think people will be using cell phone Operating systemsFeb 09 21:55
sebsebseband they were planning on using it like that for 30 yearsFeb 09 21:55
wispygalaxyby 2020aFeb 09 21:55
wispygalaxy2020sFeb 09 21:55
sebsebsebyeah mobile computingFeb 09 21:55
sebsebsebthat's starting to become the thing moreFeb 09 21:55
wispygalaxyi think windows will fade awayFeb 09 21:55
sebsebsebeventaully I guess desktops won't  matter that much anymore, because mobile computing will have taken overFeb 09 21:55
FurnaceBoywispygalaxy: yes it willFeb 09 21:55
wispygalaxybusinesses may be more conservativeFeb 09 21:55
wispygalaxyfor consumersFeb 09 21:55
FurnaceBoywispygalaxy: it's inevitableFeb 09 21:55
sebsebsebwell there's Windows mobile, but  Linux for mobile as well etcFeb 09 21:55
wispygalaxyof course :)Feb 09 21:56
DaemonFC 09 21:56
phIRCe-BNcTitle: Not a web page! Aborting image/jpeg type .::. Size~: 0 KBFeb 09 21:56
sebsebseboh and a lot of these companies are making it so,  the consumer doesn't know what OS they are runningFeb 09 21:56
DaemonFCthat TV actually makes a better monitorFeb 09 21:56
wispygalaxyi cant wait for the new era of computingFeb 09 21:56
sebsebsebon the mobile devicesFeb 09 21:56
DaemonFC32" 1920 x 1080Feb 09 21:56
DaemonFC*grin*Feb 09 21:56
sebsebsebDesktop computing and lap tops won't just fade awayFeb 09 21:56
wispygalaxythat's hi resFeb 09 21:56
sebsebsebstill a good idea to compete against Windows on the desktopFeb 09 21:56
wispygalaxyi can see the merging of TVs and computer monitorsFeb 09 21:57
sebsebsebwell TV's are already sort of used as computers  todayFeb 09 21:57
sebsebsebgames consolesFeb 09 21:57
wispygalaxymobile devices will certainly outnumber the immobile desktopsFeb 09 21:57
sebsebsebcable box'sFeb 09 21:57
DaemonFCwispygalaxy, I've actually been meaning to put a TV card in my PC so I can use my TV as a monitor and watch TV on my desktop on my TVFeb 09 21:57
DaemonFC:)Feb 09 21:57
wispygalaxyi agreeFeb 09 21:57
wispygalaxythats cool daemonFeb 09 21:58
schestowitz[21:56] <wispygalaxy> i cant wait for the new era of computingFeb 09 21:58
schestowitz"The cloud, lassie, the cloud!!"Feb 09 21:58
wispygalaxyill be using Internet TV, so i dont see a need for cable imoFeb 09 21:58
DaemonFCthe GPU I have is a double decker, so I need a PCI-E x1 TV tuner cardFeb 09 21:58
schestowitzClichesFeb 09 21:58
wispygalaxyhah, royFeb 09 21:58
DaemonFCI have an old PCI one that only works with Windows :PFeb 09 21:58
schestowitzOracle's talks were full of marketing buzzFeb 09 21:58
schestowitzExcept "cloud"Feb 09 21:58
wispygalaxycustom building a new monitor? :)Feb 09 21:59
schestowitzThey have a lot of "innovation" and "going forward"Feb 09 21:59
*Eruaran has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)Feb 09 21:59
wispygalaxyi hate buzzwordsFeb 09 21:59
wispygalaxycorps say one thing and do anotherFeb 09 21:59
wispygalaxylike "social responsibility"Feb 09 21:59
wispygalaxythey really care about shareholdersFeb 09 21:59
schestowitzI see that DaemonFC uses xchat in gnomeFeb 09 21:59
wispygalaxyi wish they'd be nicer to the communities they are inFeb 09 21:59
DaemonFCAvermedia makes some awesome+cheap cards with onboard decoders and everything but they either have no Linux support or a binary blob that they say "should" work on Ubuntu 8.04Feb 09 22:00
sebsebsebJono Does Canonical have share holders yet?   or uhmm will it when it's making a profit?Feb 09 22:00
schestowitzyesFeb 09 22:00
wispygalaxyi bet it will workFeb 09 22:00
schestowitzeveryone dosFeb 09 22:00
schestowitz*doesFeb 09 22:00
sebsebsebschestowitz they have share holders?Feb 09 22:00
wispygalaxycanonical has stock?Feb 09 22:00
schestowitza one-man company has one shareholder/stakeholderFeb 09 22:00
wispygalaxyoh okFeb 09 22:00
schestowitzwispygalaxy: not publicFeb 09 22:00
wispygalaxyi thought soFeb 09 22:01
schestowitzBut it's possible that someone other than Mark puts money in itFeb 09 22:01
sebsebsebI read some comment to some article,  that basically  said that it might end up getting bought out by Microsoft or somethingFeb 09 22:01
wispygalaxywhat??Feb 09 22:01
schestowitzLinspire was a messFeb 09 22:01
wispygalaxythats too bad for canonicalFeb 09 22:01
schestowitzThey didn't keep track of shares and thus there was a lawsuitFeb 09 22:01
sebsebsebMark sold theo ther company he ran or whateverFeb 09 22:01
sebsebsebso  they think it might happen to Canonical as wellFeb 09 22:01
schestowitzMaybeFeb 09 22:01
wispygalaxysomeone is always willing to sue linuxFeb 09 22:02
schestowitzIBM or GoogleFeb 09 22:02
schestowitzIBM does work with Canonical and VirtualBrodgesFeb 09 22:02
schestowitz*bridgesFeb 09 22:02
wispygalaxylets hope they wont take advantage of linux!Feb 09 22:02
DaemonFC 09 22:03
phIRCe-BNcTitle: Not a web page! Aborting image/png type .::. Size~: 0 KBFeb 09 22:03
DaemonFCmy desktop :)Feb 09 22:03
wispygalaxyhahaha that's a new screenshotFeb 09 22:03
schestowitzIf Google bought Canonical, then jono would drive happy scooters around :-)Feb 09 22:03
wispygalaxyi see myself in thereFeb 09 22:03
wispygalaxy:PFeb 09 22:03
sebsebsebwisphygalaxy Debian can't just be bought out as far as I know since it's from a non profit organisation, but  Canonical can be hrmFeb 09 22:03
wispygalaxyyes , debian stands up for itselfFeb 09 22:04
wispygalaxyhaha royFeb 09 22:04
DaemonFCwispygalaxy, Ubuntu Studio theme with a wallpaper I found randomly :)Feb 09 22:04
schestowitzDaemonFC: low resFeb 09 22:04
DaemonFCnice thing about Google image search, you can specify exact sizeFeb 09 22:04
schestowitzYour new screen can't go higher?Feb 09 22:04
wispygalaxynice wallpaperFeb 09 22:04
DaemonFC1680 x 1050?Feb 09 22:04
schestowitzGot the old screen?Feb 09 22:05
wispygalaxyi forget that you can specify the image sizeFeb 09 22:05
wispygalaxywith googleFeb 09 22:05
schestowitzUse dual if you gpu allows itFeb 09 22:05
schestowitz*yourFeb 09 22:05
wispygalaxydo you have dual monitors, roy?Feb 09 22:06
DaemonFC1680 x 1050 blew my mind in 2008 when I finally got off the 17" CRT @ 1280 x 960Feb 09 22:07
DaemonFC:)Feb 09 22:07
wispygalaxyim using an lcd monitorFeb 09 22:07
wispygalaxyi remember crt monitorsFeb 09 22:07
MinceRi went from 1280x1024 to 1920x1200Feb 09 22:07
DaemonFCI never liked the 60 hz refresh rate it forced me to use at 1280 x 960Feb 09 22:08
DaemonFCfelt like staring in a strobe lightFeb 09 22:08
wispygalaxyi havent changed my resolutionsFeb 09 22:08
wispygalaxylol!Feb 09 22:08
MinceRno new year's resolution? :>Feb 09 22:08
wispygalaxyi mean, my monitor resolution haha :PFeb 09 22:08
wispygalaxyi stick with what i got... im afraid to mess things upFeb 09 22:09
DaemonFC1680 x 1050 LCD is heaven compared to that shitty CRT I hadFeb 09 22:09
-BNtwitter/#boycottnovell-[davidgerard] DW/LJ: Solaris 10: now to put zones on the damn thing. 09 22:09
phIRCe-BNcTitle: reddragdiva | Solaris 10: now to put zones on the damn thing. .::. Size~: 27.99 KBFeb 09 22:09
phIRCe-BNcTitle: reddragdiva: Solaris 10: now to put zones on the damn thing. .::. Size~: 19.35 KBFeb 09 22:09
wispygalaxyit's more energy efficient i hopeFeb 09 22:09
DaemonFCit would have to beFeb 09 22:09
wispygalaxyhey roy, what's up with martiFeb 09 22:09
wispygalaxyoverall, lcd has better picture imoFeb 09 22:10
MinceRagreedFeb 09 22:10
wispygalaxyplus, it's less irritating to look atFeb 09 22:10
MinceRyet more difficult to buyFeb 09 22:11
MinceRmost of the time they're trying to foist crap with faulty pixels on usFeb 09 22:11
wispygalaxyflatscreen is becoming the normFeb 09 22:11
FurnaceBoyheh, zones. about 1 minute to set up .Feb 09 22:12
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wispygalaxyoh, that was david's article, right roy?Feb 09 22:13
-BNtwitter/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] RT @lxoliva 60 hours with an openmoko neo freerunner, quite happy with it. thanks #fsf for the loan.Feb 09 22:13
wispygalaxyroy, remember how the COLA trolls said the openmoko sucked?Feb 09 22:13
wispygalaxythey said that it had no chanceFeb 09 22:13
schestowitzI knowFeb 09 22:14
wispygalaxyi didnt listen to that!Feb 09 22:14
wispygalaxyi believed in the openmokoFeb 09 22:14
schestowitzIt's used educationally nowFeb 09 22:15
schestowitzAndroid sweeps the floorFeb 09 22:15
schestowitzLiMo is losing to Android on the Linux frontFeb 09 22:15
schestowitz 09 22:15
schestowitzApple kaputFeb 09 22:15
schestowitzMAJOR fail.Feb 09 22:15
phIRCe-BNcTitle: Life of a free software evangelist » iPad is Defective By Design .::. Size~: 28.33 KBFeb 09 22:15
wispygalaxyis the android good for linux?Feb 09 22:15
schestowitzNew!! Another iPhone, this time biggerFeb 09 22:15
wispygalaxythe ipad is kinda useless, sryFeb 09 22:16
schestowitzComputer are supposed to get smalelrFeb 09 22:16
wispygalaxylol, yesFeb 09 22:16
schestowitzIt would be like Trigger Happy TV is one used iPad as a phoneFeb 09 22:16
MinceRif the rumors are right, windows phone 7 will combine the drawbacks of the hypePhone OS with those of android :>Feb 09 22:16
wispygalaxyin 10 years, we should be wearing a computer on our wrists, at this rateFeb 09 22:16
wispygalaxy"windows phone 7"  - when will that come outFeb 09 22:17
schestowitzwispygalaxy: Feb 09 22:17
wispygalaxythanksFeb 09 22:17
wispygalaxywow thats a big phoneFeb 09 22:18
schestowitz 09 22:18
phIRCe-BNcTitle: Trigger Happy TV - Big Mobile Phone Videos - .::. Size~: 49.49 KBFeb 09 22:18
schestowitz*LOL*Feb 09 22:18
schestowitzBig iPadFeb 09 22:18
wispygalaxyand jumbo iphoneFeb 09 22:18
wispygalaxymy dormmate is singing really loudly across the hall.. lolFeb 09 22:21
*jono reads upFeb 09 22:24
jonosebsebseb, we don't have shareholdersFeb 09 22:24
wispygalaxyi g2g now, bye everyone!Feb 09 22:25
wispygalaxysee ya jonoFeb 09 22:25
jonosebsebseb, yeah, some people won't like Ubuntu as it is too "easy to use", which is what I love about Linux, other distros can meet their needs :)Feb 09 22:25
jonobye wispygalaxy!Feb 09 22:25
wispygalaxyttylFeb 09 22:25
wispygalaxybye mincer, daemon, seb, furnanceFeb 09 22:25
jonoschestowitz you tweet a lot, so you might be interested in 09 22:25
jono:)Feb 09 22:25
DaemonFCjono, Microsoft Bong searchFeb 09 22:25
jonoalthough I know you use KDEFeb 09 22:25
MinceRo/Feb 09 22:25
DaemonFCwhat could be easier?Feb 09 22:25
wispygalaxybye bye royFeb 09 22:25
jonoDaemonFC, wah wahFeb 09 22:26
jono:PFeb 09 22:26
sebsebsebjono  Oh is that a link abou the 10.04 social features?Feb 09 22:26
wispygalaxytake care for now!Feb 09 22:26
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DaemonFCoh well, Ubuntu will take Microsoft's search share up about a tenth of a point even if nobody changes it back to a better search engineFeb 09 22:26
DaemonFCthat tenth of a percent probably is a pretty big chunk for one Microsoft partner though so Ubuntu will get plenty of monopoly money for thisFeb 09 22:27
jonosebsebseb, yep :)Feb 09 22:27
jonoDaemonFC, yep, and that can generate more money for us to screw the Linux community :-)Feb 09 22:28
DaemonFCjono, It's what I hate about Windows software, you make your preference and Windows keeps trying to make IE and Bing your defaults againFeb 09 22:28
DaemonFCHow long before Ubuntu slips in security hazards like Moonlight in?Feb 09 22:29
DaemonFCanti-features are features that no user would have asked forFeb 09 22:29
sebsebseboh right yeah that's a pointFeb 09 22:29
sebsebsebJono don't get Moonlight inFeb 09 22:29
DaemonFCI know few people that want YahellFeb 09 22:29
sebsebsebI would rather support Flash :)Feb 09 22:29
DaemonFCfrom an ease-of-use perspective jono, it would be better to continue letting the 3 users out of 100 that want Yahell to opt-in to YahellFeb 09 22:30
jonoI don't see why we need to ship MoonlightFeb 09 22:31
jonono one uses it :)Feb 09 22:31
jonoDaemonFC, lolFeb 09 22:31
MinceRwowFeb 09 22:31
MinceRthere's some stuff for mono you aren't actually eager to ship? :>Feb 09 22:31
DaemonFCbut that's the point, nobody uses Yahell and you're making Firefox into Foistwarefox with Yahell defaultsFeb 09 22:31
jonoMinceR, lolFeb 09 22:32
jonoDaemonFC, you are very creative with words, have you considered a career in it?Feb 09 22:32
jonoDaemonFC, what distro do you use?Feb 09 22:32
DaemonFCMinceR, They're in negotiations right now, as soon as Microsoft offers them one penny per user's machine compromised, they'll biteFeb 09 22:32
MinceR:>Feb 09 22:32
DaemonFCit's how all good adware operatesFeb 09 22:33
sebsebsebJono exactly hardly anyone uses Silverlight/Moonlight :)Feb 09 22:33
DaemonFCUbuntu is turning into PKZip with Cydoor level nuisanceFeb 09 22:33
DaemonFCremember when PKZip had that freeware version that was packed with ads that would spy on you?Feb 09 22:34
MinceRthe last version of pkzip i remember was for m$-dosFeb 09 22:34
DaemonFCjono, And what about all those Chinese journalists that use UbuntuFeb 09 22:35
MinceRand had no malware includedFeb 09 22:35
DaemonFCare they going to get forked over to the Commies cause they get Yahell too?Feb 09 22:35
jonoDaemonFC, which distro do you use?Feb 09 22:36
DaemonFCYahell just forks over personal user info because a government said pretty pleaseFeb 09 22:37
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DaemonFCdoesn't even challenge them for a warrant or anythingFeb 09 22:37
MinceRgoogle does the same thing, actuallyFeb 09 22:37
DaemonFCI don't trust that Yahell wouldn't turn over my data as an American just because the FBI asked nicely with no warrant Feb 09 22:38
DaemonFCMinceR, I trust Yahell lessFeb 09 22:38
MinceRand m$ is even proud that they do the sameFeb 09 22:38
MinceR(they call it "obeying local laws")Feb 09 22:38
jonobrbFeb 09 22:38
*jono has quit (Quit: Ex-Chat)Feb 09 22:38
MinceRi trust m$ and microhoo less than googleFeb 09 22:39
DaemonFCin other words MinceR, they'll throw you to the beast as a tasty morsel in order to continue raking in click pennies off everyone else in your countryFeb 09 22:39
DaemonFCand should the time come to throw them into the belly of the beast, they won't hesitateFeb 09 22:39
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DaemonFCI wouldn't warn people off Ubuntu entirely, but I would strongly suggest that they change their search engine back to Google if they want to avoid becoming the "next Chinese journalist"Feb 09 22:40
sebsebsebJono thanks for the link altough you aimed it at schestowitzFeb 09 22:41
DaemonFCand when that day comes, I'd like to see jono personally announce that Yahell was just following local lawsFeb 09 22:41
MinceRi wouldn't warn people off *ubuntu until these things are finalizedFeb 09 22:41
MinceRbut it would be really sad if canonical really did all these things and became novell#2Feb 09 22:42
DaemonFCwell, as far as I know for sure, nobody has been black bagged in the middle of the night by the fingermen over using Yahell searchFeb 09 22:42
DaemonFCother than those Chinese journalistsFeb 09 22:42
DaemonFCbut Yahell has displayed a total indifference towards doing itFeb 09 22:42
DaemonFCso I won't even go to yahoo.comFeb 09 22:43
DaemonFCmuch less use their engineFeb 09 22:43
MinceRthey don't have an engine anymoreFeb 09 22:43
DaemonFCyeah, they have a box that's a mask for BingFeb 09 22:44
DaemonFCit's like Phantom of the Search EnginesFeb 09 22:44
DaemonFC:)Feb 09 22:44
jonocheers sebsebseb :)Feb 09 22:44
jonoDaemonFC, why don't you answer my question, what distro do you use?Feb 09 22:45
DaemonFCWhy does it matter? I'm not going to be exploited by Yahell.Feb 09 22:46
sebsebsebJono  I did alpha 1 in a vm and  installed from ISO.  alpha 2 I vm'd the live session in vm.   maybe if I install into vm  tommorow and do the updates i'll get something like your screenshot,  except not with a black theme.   altough I thought the social features woudn't be properly in development untill alpha 3 or just before it?Feb 09 22:46
DaemonFCplenty of people don't understand what's going on hereFeb 09 22:46
sebsebsebThe Phantom Of the Opera...Feb 09 22:47
sebsebsebhrm how did that song go it's alrightFeb 09 22:47
jonoDaemonFC, do you use Ubuntu?Feb 09 22:47
sebsebsebplus I seen  pro's do that show in the pastFeb 09 22:47
DaemonFCjono, It's easy to have fun with Yahoo Messenger because it's not secure at allFeb 09 22:47
jonosebsebseb, I think alpha 3 will be a really exciting dev releaseFeb 09 22:48
DaemonFConce you have someone's account, which takes about 5 minutes, you can get into their e-mailFeb 09 22:48
jonoDaemonFC, ok, so I am going to assume you do use UbuntuFeb 09 22:48
DaemonFCyou can start fooling around with their contactsFeb 09 22:48
sebsebsebJono yeah it should be  basically feature complete?  then it's just bug fix's  and little changes maybe?Feb 09 22:48
DaemonFCyou can see their web search historyFeb 09 22:48
jonosebsebseb, most of the key features will be in there :)Feb 09 22:48
DaemonFCnow if I can do this, I have to wonder why Yahell won't fix it and why Ubuntu is handing them thousands of users to profileFeb 09 22:49
jonosebsebseb, the social elements, pitivi, ubuntu one music store, application indicators, me menu, new gwibber etc..Feb 09 22:49
sebsebsebjono good stuff I am looking forward to vm'ing alpha 3Feb 09 22:49
sebsebseband have for well quite a while nowFeb 09 22:49
sebsebsebjono ah ha so music store is offical?Feb 09 22:50
sebsebsebI only read stuff before about how it might happen, plus their's a blue printFeb 09 22:50
jonosebsebseb, oh yes, it is comingFeb 09 22:50
jonoI have seen it, it rocksFeb 09 22:50
DaemonFCwhat's funnier is that Yahell stores your credit card info tooFeb 09 22:50
sebsebsebI read that it will probably use the Amazon storeFeb 09 22:50
jonoall works right within RhythmboxFeb 09 22:50
sebsebsebwhich is USA only?Feb 09 22:50
jonoit doesnt use Amazon - it uses another providerFeb 09 22:50
DaemonFCwhy don't you tell every Ubuntu user to post their Social Security Number in your forum?Feb 09 22:50
jonothey have *everything* on thereFeb 09 22:50
DaemonFCjust make it even easier for thieves to exploit themFeb 09 22:50
sebsebsebjono oh well you just done something for the social featuresFeb 09 22:51
sebsebsebmaybe you should for the music store as wellFeb 09 22:51
jonoyou can preview it in RB and then when you buy a song it saves it to Ubuntu One so it appears on all your machinesFeb 09 22:51
sebsebsebjono  you are offical :DFeb 09 22:51
jonoall right within RBFeb 09 22:51
jono:)Feb 09 22:51
sebsebsebomgubuntu  and such is well not officalFeb 09 22:51
jonosebsebseb, as soon as the music store hits ubuntu I will blog it :)Feb 09 22:51
sebsebsebjono oh right, but you got to see it early?Feb 09 22:51
DaemonFCsebsebseb, I should post a small tutorial somewhere detailing how to do all thisFeb 09 22:51
jonosebsebseb, I have seen it in developmentFeb 09 22:51
DaemonFCembarrass Ubuntu for choosing YahooFeb 09 22:51
jonothe main dev is my best friendFeb 09 22:51
sebsebsebjono I hoep Lucid gets a nice default backgroundFeb 09 22:52
sebsebseb8.04 had an alright one,  8.10 rather niceFeb 09 22:52
sebsebseb9.04 poo :DFeb 09 22:52
DaemonFCHow about not brownFeb 09 22:52
DaemonFCtoo much to ask for?Feb 09 22:52
sebsebseb9.10 that rather shingey yellow type backgroundFeb 09 22:53
jonosebsebseb, the backgrounds are looking sweet :)Feb 09 22:53
jonoand they are part of the Creative Commons competition :)Feb 09 22:53
DaemonFCsebsebseb, I'd call it puss yellowFeb 09 22:53
DaemonFClike what oozes out if you pick at a soreFeb 09 22:53
sebsebsebDaemonFC  the 9.10 background?Feb 09 22:53
DaemonFCyeahFeb 09 22:53
sebsebsebjono oh there's been a competition for the default background, sounds goodFeb 09 22:53
jonosebsebseb, indeed :)Feb 09 22:53
sebsebseb,but if there are a lot of them,  that are good, should add something to the repo I guessFeb 09 22:54
jonobtw sebsebseb, do you do coding?Feb 09 22:54
sebsebsebCan still get the Ubuntu tree, well it's called Dawn of Ubuntu I think,   the one Edgy had,  in repo :)Feb 09 22:54
DaemonFCjono, They could bring back Dawn...Feb 09 22:54
DaemonFCcrapFeb 09 22:54
DaemonFCdammit, steal my thunder :)Feb 09 22:54
sebsebsebcoding well,  I can do HTML,  XHTML, and CSS, when there's something to make,  but those are market up languages not proggrammingFeb 09 22:54
jonosebsebseb, you might be interested in 09 22:55
DaemonFCsebsebseb, Dawk of Ubuntu can still be foundFeb 09 22:55
phIRCe-BNcTitle: UbuntuOpportunisticDeveloperWeek - Ubuntu Wiki .::. Size~: 11.1 KBFeb 09 22:55
jonosomething I am in the process of putting togetherFeb 09 22:55
DaemonFCtheres also more versions of itFeb 09 22:55
jonoa week of python tutorial sessionsFeb 09 22:55
jonoto encourage more people to write free software appsFeb 09 22:55
sebsebsebI am more of a support person on the software side.  I also already know about DeveloperWeek, but thanks I guessFeb 09 22:55
jonoahhh coolFeb 09 22:55
DaemonFCUbuntu threw it out over the licensing even though the guy changed the license Feb 09 22:55
jonono worries :)Feb 09 22:55
sebsebsebaltough python sessions weekFeb 09 22:55
DaemonFCbureaucratsFeb 09 22:55
jonoDaemonFC, cry me a riverFeb 09 22:55
sebsebsebI have maybe two people  on IRC that would be interestedFeb 09 22:55
jonoDaemonFC, just use another distroFeb 09 22:56
DaemonFCjono is a level 7 bureaucrat Feb 09 22:56
jonothere are plenty of others available :)Feb 09 22:56
DaemonFClike Hermes in Futurama :)Feb 09 22:56
jonolol :)Feb 09 22:56
DaemonFC 09 22:56
phIRCe-BNcTitle: Bureaucrat's Song | Futurama | Comedy Central .::. Size~: 58.2 KBFeb 09 22:57
jonoDaemonFC, I know you really think I am here to screw free software, but I really do want the best for free softwareFeb 09 22:57
jonoI am sorry to see that you think otherwiseFeb 09 22:57
sebsebsebJono so what is music store going  to use as a provider?Feb 09 22:57
jonosebsebseb, I can't remember the nameFeb 09 22:57
sebsebsebno Jono that's the joke I think,  that you want to screw  up free software :DFeb 09 22:58
DaemonFCprobably some crap MP3 storeFeb 09 22:58
sebsebsebnot just you CanonicalFeb 09 22:58
jonosebsebseb, heheFeb 09 22:58
DaemonFCmakes you pay full CD priceFeb 09 22:58
DaemonFCuse non-free software to play itFeb 09 22:59
DaemonFCcrappy 20 year old formatFeb 09 22:59
sebsebsebjono  some want   open source and free software to gain a more proper market share, and others don't really careFeb 09 22:59
DaemonFClike I said the other day, watch them stuff Fluendo MP3 inFeb 09 22:59
sebsebsebsome don't want   millions of Windows users using Desktop Linux as in UbuntuFeb 09 23:00
schestowitzogg....Feb 09 23:00
sebsebsebor other distros for that matterFeb 09 23:00
DaemonFCjono, How about FLAC?Feb 09 23:00
DaemonFCIf I'm going to pay CD prices I want CD qualityFeb 09 23:00
schestowitzBy promoting Moon Lie and SilevrLie one spreads MPEG-LAFeb 09 23:00
schestowitzand Microsoft!Feb 09 23:00
schestowitzThe cuddly companyFeb 09 23:00
schestowitzWe need to promote ODF, Ogg, etc.Feb 09 23:00
schestowitzNot XAML, OOXML, .NET...Feb 09 23:00
schestowitz Sketchpad (beta)Feb 09 23:00
phIRCe-BNcTitle: Design News @ ColorJack .::. Size~: 16.89 KBFeb 09 23:01
DaemonFCI don't get the 99 cents per song deal for something that sounds like an 8 track tapeFeb 09 23:01
schestowitzNice ne for Ubuntu maybeFeb 09 23:01
sebsebsebjono Some people really want their iphone support in Ubuntu, such as a guy earlier,  who also gave me a link to  something on brainstorm about thatFeb 09 23:01
schestowitz*oneFeb 09 23:01
DaemonFCthis shit is bananasFeb 09 23:01
schestowitzUgh... Mac Asay is still fixated in iPad....Feb 09 23:01
schestowitz*onFeb 09 23:01
phIRCe-BNcTitle: The application is the new the operating system | The Open Road - CNET News .::. Size~: 159.08 KBFeb 09 23:01
schestowitzMinceR will love it....Feb 09 23:01
DaemonFCI'd just go torrent some FLACS before I paid for MP3sFeb 09 23:01
MinceRwhat i'm interested in is whether his new employers will like that or notFeb 09 23:01
DaemonFCI mean hell, it's 5 times better quality AND free, lolFeb 09 23:01
schestowitz"All that is still needed, therefore, is to eradicate the fixation with file systems and other remnants of the 20th-century PC and then look beyond to the network--one that happily runs Linux, but in the background......Feb 09 23:02
schestowitzWhy?Feb 09 23:02
schestowitzBecause OS X file systems SUCKS?Feb 09 23:02
sebsebsebschestowitz  something I read, that basically said that he would have to change his email address from to  a more Ubuntu like oneFeb 09 23:02
MinceR"durr hurr i'm matt asay, COO of Canonical and i'm telling you all to go to your nearest crApple shop and buy everything in there, starting with the hypePad!"Feb 09 23:02
schestowitzHey, let's just forget about it..... and make a dumbed-down iPhone OS for sub-notebooks with Linux....Feb 09 23:02
MinceRlolFeb 09 23:02
schestowitzPeople will buy it for the Penguin logoFeb 09 23:02
sebsebsebjono  One of the Ubuntu ops thinks Ubuntu will never gain a more proper market share, what do you think?Feb 09 23:03
MinceRthere's no penguin logo thereFeb 09 23:03
sebsebsebops as in for IRC yeahFeb 09 23:03
DaemonFCwhat made me wonder about Crapple in that area was WHY THE HELL they disappeared ZFS support when it was a golden opportunity to trash HFS+ and at least make one part of the system work wellFeb 09 23:03
DaemonFC:)Feb 09 23:03
schestowitzsebsebseb: it's already gainingFeb 09 23:04
schestowitzNot just in desktopFeb 09 23:04
sebsebsebschestowtiz well yes, more and more people going Ubuntu every day it seemsFeb 09 23:04
schestowitzLinux has fantastic filesystemsFeb 09 23:04
schestowitzOracle might bring zfs to it... not just btrfsFeb 09 23:04
schestowitzsebsebseb: not just desktopsFeb 09 23:05
schestowitziTampon shows that Apple goes outside desktops nowFeb 09 23:05
DaemonFCschestowitz, I use XFSFeb 09 23:05
schestowitzThey do it pporlyFeb 09 23:05
schestowitzBut the intention countsFeb 09 23:05
schestowitzLinux can do far betterFeb 09 23:05
schestowitz 09 23:06
phIRCe-BNcTitle: Linux can compete with the iPad on price, but where’s the magic? | The Linux Foundation .::. Size~: 28.91 KBFeb 09 23:06
schestowitzMagic?Feb 09 23:06
DaemonFCone thing I noticed about die hard BSD people is they hate GPL with a passionFeb 09 23:06
schestowitzgive me one unit of moboFeb 09 23:06
DaemonFCthey try to avoid GPL whenever possibleFeb 09 23:06
schestowitzOne screenFeb 09 23:06
schestowitzbattery...Feb 09 23:06
schestowitzAnd two "magic' plsFeb 09 23:06
schestowitzVoila!Feb 09 23:06
schestowitz"I call it........... the iTampon"Feb 09 23:06
DaemonFCI always kind of wondered why GNOME wasn't well supported on the BSDsFeb 09 23:06
schestowitzThat's the thing with AppleFeb 09 23:07
schestowitzIt's like DisneyFeb 09 23:07
DaemonFCyou can use it, but it's not really the mainstreamFeb 09 23:07
schestowitzit's some brandFeb 09 23:07
DaemonFCnearly everyone uses KDEFeb 09 23:07
DaemonFCOn Linux, it's about 50 50Feb 09 23:07
schestowitzMagic........ only for people who associate a gadget with some imagery they saw on TVFeb 09 23:07
schestowitzGNOME is big at Sun SolarisFeb 09 23:07
schestowitzLooking Glass is deadFeb 09 23:07
schestowitzDemowareFeb 09 23:07
DaemonFCschestowitz, I think that's the biggest thing that turned me off on BSD, crappy GNOME supportFeb 09 23:07
DaemonFCschestowitz, Debian kFreeBSD is going to be coolFeb 09 23:08
DaemonFCGNOME, GNU userland, FreeBSD kernelFeb 09 23:08
DaemonFCpop in the Linuxulator and you're getting the best of both worldsFeb 09 23:08
MinceRthe best of both worlds is GNU/Linux :>Feb 09 23:09
DaemonFCthre's the potential for legal ZFS support in Debian kFreeBSDFeb 09 23:09
schestowitz,1000000567,10015054o-2000498448b,00.htmFeb 09 23:09
phIRCe-BNcTitle: Community on ZDNet UK .::. Size~: 120.91 KBFeb 09 23:09
schestowitzCommunity?????????Feb 09 23:09
DaemonFCI don't know, they had a few good points about why you might want BSD kernel instead of LinuxFeb 09 23:09
schestowitzMint has non "community" editions now?Feb 09 23:09
DaemonFCbut some were just hearsay and wishy washyFeb 09 23:10
schestowitzMinceR: just cli utils?Feb 09 23:10
MinceRall the points i've heard turned out to be rubbishFeb 09 23:10
MinceRschestowitz: huh?Feb 09 23:10
schestowitzKDE is far biggerFeb 09 23:10
DaemonFCPhoronix did benchmarking and found that FreeBSD kernel performs better than Linux in some usage casesFeb 09 23:10
MinceRright, with KDEFeb 09 23:10 is also giganticFeb 09 23:10
DaemonFCkFreeBSD will be useful for some peopleFeb 09 23:10
MinceRbut that's not "two worlds" then :>Feb 09 23:10
DaemonFCI also think this will allow people to get OSSFeb 09 23:11
DaemonFCand not need Pulseaudio for thingsFeb 09 23:11
MinceRthere's this not-so-new thing you might have heard of, it's called ALSAFeb 09 23:11
schestowitzDaemonFC: you just want to be differentFeb 09 23:11
schestowitzPoser....Feb 09 23:11
MinceRmost bsd fanboys are posersFeb 09 23:11
schestowitzSUSE users too 09 23:14
phIRCe-BNcTitle: Error processing the URL:  .::. Size~: 0 KBFeb 09 23:14
schestowitz[nsfw]Feb 09 23:14
MinceRshe doesn't nearly look good enough to pull that offFeb 09 23:15
schestowitzWhat's this US obsession with ads? 09 23:15
phIRCe-BNcTitle:  Top 10 Super Bowl tech ads .::. Size~: 132.51 KBFeb 09 23:15
schestowitzI find that abnormalFeb 09 23:15
MinceRit's part of the "American Dream"Feb 09 23:16
schestowitzMinceR: well, maybe she was only trying to seduce MessmanFeb 09 23:16
MinceRwho's that?Feb 09 23:16
schestowitzBut as Ballmer can attest, he wasn't easy to getFeb 09 23:16
schestowitzHovo[sic] sepian run right into bed with BammerFeb 09 23:16
schestowitz*BallmerFeb 09 23:16
schestowitzJust 7 months or so after he become CEOFeb 09 23:17
schestowitzThey started negotiatingFeb 09 23:17
schestowitzBummer used them for patent spielFeb 09 23:17
schestowitzjack messman, MinceRFeb 09 23:17
schestowitzformer Novell tzar Feb 09 23:18
MinceRicFeb 09 23:18
schestowitz 09 23:18
phIRCe-BNcTitle: File:Peter the Great.jpg - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia .::. Size~: 23.7 KBFeb 09 23:18
DaemonFCschestowitz, I'm thinking that some of my FGLRX problems (not all) may have been caused by something in the kernel that Ubuntu was usingFeb 09 23:21
DaemonFCyesterday I updated the kernel and reinstalled FGLRX, and it's much smoother nowFeb 09 23:21
schestowitz"Feb 09 23:21
schestowitzInventors of new programming languages couldFeb 09 23:21
schestowitzthus be regarded as small-scall terrorists.Feb 09 23:21
schestowitz"Feb 09 23:22
schestowitz 09 23:22
phIRCe-BNcTitle: Linux Today - HTML5 Theora Video Codec for Silverlight .::. Size~: 74.85 KBFeb 09 23:22
schestowitz 09 23:22
phIRCe-BNcTitle:  Ksplice debuts zero downtime service for Linux .::. Size~: 132.61 KBFeb 09 23:22
schestowitz 09 23:22
phIRCe-BNcTitle: Relaunched for Software Compilation 4.4 | .::. Size~: 47.29 KBFeb 09 23:22
DaemonFCschestowitz, What do you think about that? Vorbis/Theora in Silverblight?Feb 09 23:22
MinceRi thought ksplice was old newsFeb 09 23:22
DaemonFCis it better than not having them?Feb 09 23:22
MinceRi think it's irrelevantFeb 09 23:23
DaemonFCor does it even matter?Feb 09 23:23
DaemonFCyeah. Silverblight isn't exactly spreading faster than it's being ditched, lolFeb 09 23:23
schestowitz"@schestowitz as expected and just in time for ubuntu - the mono based paint app"Feb 09 23:23
schestowitz@jwildeboer developed by Novell. Steve Bummer would be happy.Feb 09 23:23
schestowitzMinceR: maybeFeb 09 23:24
schestowitzI never got the big deal... if there's a security issue you can usually go offline for a coupleFeb 09 23:24
DaemonFCschestowitz, Didn't Stallman say it was fine to make apps in C# as long as we don't depend on them?Feb 09 23:24
MinceRi mean vorbis/theora being in silverlie is irrelevantFeb 09 23:24
schestowitzI guess it's good for HPC and so-called clud computingFeb 09 23:25
DaemonFCIt's not like Banshee and Pinta erase other media and photo softwareFeb 09 23:25
MinceRsilverlie is the same screwup regardless of what codecs it ships withFeb 09 23:25
schestowitzclot computingFeb 09 23:25
MinceRDaemonFC: in canonical's world, they just might :>Feb 09 23:25
MinceR...from the install cdFeb 09 23:25
DaemonFCand what exactly in Mono can they sue for?Feb 09 23:25
schestowitzMinceR: it's like Linux infiltrating MicrosoftFeb 09 23:25
schestowitzNOT vice versaFeb 09 23:25
DaemonFCjust Winforms and such, right?Feb 09 23:25
schestowitzI think it's not harmfulFeb 09 23:25
MinceRi don't think it's harmfulFeb 09 23:26
MinceRbut i don't think it's beneficial eitherFeb 09 23:26
schestowitzIt's up to the ogg folksFeb 09 23:26
schestowitzOr down to themFeb 09 23:26
DaemonFCMinceR, Probably very slight plus, cause when Silverblight dies, you can just pin up the same file in <video> like it should have been to start with :DFeb 09 23:26
DaemonFCXiph can't stop them from making codecs for SilverlightFeb 09 23:27
schestowitz*LOL* 09 23:29
phIRCe-BNcTitle: Not a web page! Aborting image/jpeg type .::. Size~: 0 KBFeb 09 23:29
schestowitzFrom FOSDEMFeb 09 23:29
schestowitzPriceless!Feb 09 23:29
MinceR:)Feb 09 23:29
FurnaceBoyschestowitz: ads = aspirational. my life sucks. but look, with money and more possessions, it won't suck. it's the basic driver for consumption. as you know. :)Feb 09 23:30
FurnaceBoyschestowitz: misdirectionFeb 09 23:30
FurnaceBoyschestowitz: for profitFeb 09 23:30
schestowitzMono camp is accusing meFeb 09 23:31
schestowitzLike people tried to accuse us of the protests in IndiaFeb 09 23:31
schestowitzThe Mono camp pretends that only once site or group of people are opposed to MonoFeb 09 23:31
schestowitzThat simplifies their world view.... that it's just some fringe group, but everyone loves Mono.Feb 09 23:32
schestowitzFurnaceBoy: yesFeb 09 23:32
schestowitzLike is all about moneyFeb 09 23:32
schestowitzAnd having loads of offsrpingsFeb 09 23:32
schestowitzIt will make you extremely happy, we promiseFeb 09 23:32
DaemonFCoh, Hulu broke their player on LinuxFeb 09 23:33
DaemonFCthe desktop player still worksFeb 09 23:33
DaemonFC:PFeb 09 23:33
schestowitzDaemonFC: was it your mom?Feb 09 23:33
schestowitzDid she stop by Belgium to drop this sign?Feb 09 23:33
schestowitzYou rascal you!Feb 09 23:33
MinceRactually they have to be pretty stupid to believe that there isn't at least one more "group" that hates mono: oracle. :>Feb 09 23:33
schestowitzYesFeb 09 23:35
schestowitz.NET tooFeb 09 23:35
schestowitzHe has talked about fighting it for yearsFeb 09 23:35
schestowitzMicrosoft put the kibosh on themFeb 09 23:35
schestowitzSOmeone mailed me about itFeb 09 23:36
schestowitzSomething to do with retracting connectivity in a .NET moduleFeb 09 23:36
schestowitzAnti-competitive Uncle Fester....Feb 09 23:36
MinceRwhat has Fester Addams done to deserve this? :>Feb 09 23:37
FurnaceBoylulzFeb 09 23:59

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